Tuesday Volume 685 8 December 2020 No. 148

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 8 December 2020 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2020 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 693 8 DECEMBER 2020 694

Ben Everitt [V]: Can my hon. and learned Friend House of Commons confirm what types of offender will be prioritised for these new prison places and that the most dangerous criminals will be kept off our streets? Tuesday 8 December 2020 Lucy Frazer: We anticipate that the additional places The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock will deliver a mix of places based on population type and category, which will enable us to ensure that prisoners are kept in the right security category according to their PRAYERS risk assessment. In September, the Lord Chancellor published “A Smarter Approach to Sentencing”, which [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] sets out our plans for a system that protects the public. Virtual participation in proceedings commenced These reforms will ensure that serious sexual and violent (Order, 4 June). offenders and those who are dangerous are kept in [NB: [V] denotes a Member participating virtually.] prison for longer. Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab): England and Wales already have the highest imprisonment rate in Oral Answers to Questions western Europe. Shocking figures released last week show that the prison population is going to explode from 79,000 to 100,000 by 2026. Overcrowded, understaffed JUSTICE and crumbling prisons can never be safe. In 2016, the Conservatives pledged 10,000 extra prison places by 2020, but they have only managed 200. They pledged The Secretary of State was asked— another 10,000 last year, but the Ministry of Justice Prison Capacity says that the business case has not yet been approved. Trust matters in politics. It is fatally damaged when Katherine Fletcher (South Ribble) (Con): What steps pledges are missed and promises are broken. The Secretary his Department is taking to increase prison capacity. of State said last week that he would provide 18,000 new [909919] prison places. Why should anyone believe him? Ben Everitt (Milton Keynes North) (Con): What steps Lucy Frazer: The right hon. Member mentioned the his Department is taking to increase prison capacity. fact that we had overcrowding. I would like to point out [909937] that overcrowded accommodation has gone down since the Labour Government in 2004. He also mentioned The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lucy the increase in the prison population. That is not something Frazer): We have committed more than £4 billion to that has just occurred under this Government. Labour deliver 18,000 additional prison places across the prison failed to reduce the prison population, which increased estate by the mid-2020s to support the Prime Minister’s by nearly 25,000 between 1997 and 2010. We have commitment to crack down on crime. Those 18,000 prison already made significant progress on the development places include the 10,000 places being made available of two prisons, and we have made a commitment to through the construction of four new prisons,the expansion build others. Those plans are well under way, and we of a number of other prisons, refurbishment of the will be delivering them. existing prison estate, and the completion of our ongoing prison builds at HMP Five Wells and Glen Parva. Government and Parliament: Relationship with Courts

Katherine Fletcher: Wymott bowling club has been Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con): What plans he based at HMP Wymott, near Ulnes Walton, for about has to review the relationship between Government, 42 years. It is a fantastic part of the community, with a Parliament and (a) the Supreme Court and (b) other library in a portakabin because the old building associated courts; and if he will make a statement. [909920] with the prison estate had to be knocked down. It has some big ideas for a really good community resource, The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice but it needs to know when the Ministry of Justice will (Robert Buckland): As set out in our manifesto, we are finalise its plans. Can my hon. and learned Friend share looking at the broader aspects of our constitution, when the community centre can have some certainty including the relationship between the Government, and get its exciting plans under way? Parliament and the courts. Our independent courts and legal system are respected around the world, and I Lucy Frazer: I am happy to do that. I really understand would like to protect our world-class judiciary from the value of community centres, and I am aware of the being drawn into political matters. I am interested in brilliant plans that Ms Kitching, the chair of Wymott reviewing the Constitutional Reform Act 2005, and I bowling club, has for a new community centre. Work is will update the House on arrangements in due course. under way to determine appropriate sites for other prisons, and we need to ensure that we do not release Michael Fabricant [V]: My right hon. and learned land we own that we might use in the future. We expect Friend will share with me—indeed, I suspect the whole to make a decision on this in spring 2021. My hon. House will share with me—the respect we have for our Friend will be pleased to know that my officials are Supreme Court and its judgments. Nevertheless, it is planning to meet Ms Kitching in mid-December to called in from time to time to look at issues that are discuss this matter in more detail, and I would be happy highly political and highly contentious. Does he not to keep my hon. Friend updated. agree with me that we urgently need to establish some 695 Oral Answers 8 DECEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 696 sort of framework so that we can decide precisely what only as a distinguished former Lord Justice of Appeal, the Supreme Court should be looking at and what issues but of course as the judge responsible for international are perhaps beyond or different from its remit? relations: he understands very well the issue of judicial diplomacy, which is very much at the heart of this Robert Buckland: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, review. I am glad that the geographical representation and I understand the concern that he outlines. Of also includes an academic from the Republic of Ireland, course, the Supreme Court does not of its own volition because it is my fundamental belief that we need to look investigate matters.It hears cases and answers the questions at the position in all parts of our islands to respect not before it on arguable points of law of general public only the human rights settlement, but the Belfast agreement. importance. However, as I have already said, I think it is important that we look again at the balance. As a Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab): The independent full-throated supporter of an institution that brings review of the Human Rights Act will have an enormous together the three jurisdictions of our United Kingdom, impact on the basic rights and freedoms that British I want to make sure that its future is indeed a secure and citizens enjoy.The Government caused outrage by failing a bright one. to publish submissions to the independent review of administrative law. Transparency and accountability are Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP): The fundamental parts of our democracy. Will the Secretary terms of reference for the Government’s review of the of State guarantee that both the submissions to the Human Rights Act 1998, which were announced yesterday, human rights review and the review itself will be published include the relationship between domestic courts and in full? the European convention on human rights. But of course human rights themselves, as opposed to the Act, are not Robert Buckland: I think perhaps the right hon. a reserved matter,and Scotland’s courts play an important Gentleman is to be forgiven for his descent into hyperbole role in supervising human rights protections under the when it comes to the ambit of this review. It is all about Scotland Act 1998. So can the Lord Chancellor give me the mechanism, and comments about fundamental rights a cast-iron guarantee that the British Government are being affected are way wide of the mark. First, with not planning to interfere with the competence of the regard to the process in the review, it is a matter for the Scottish Parliament in respect of human rights and the review as to what precise submissions it publishes, but I jurisdiction of Scotland’sseparate legal system in enforcing can assure him that the outcome of the review and the human rights protections? Government’s position will of course be published in Robert Buckland: I am happy to assure the hon. and full, so that he will be able and others will be able to learned Lady that the terms of reference have been digest it and we will be able to debate the matter. carefully couched to make it clear that we have distinctive contexts and natures in each of the jurisdictions, and Court Cases: Backlog that they will be considered where that is necessary. I am also content that where there are particular questions Jeff Smith (Manchester, Withington) (Lab): What on devolved matters or of a devolved nature, the progress he has made on tackling backlogs in HM independent review will be approaching or inviting Courts and Tribunals Service. [909921] engagement from all appropriate parties. Of course, it is only the first stage in making recommendations. I can Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op): assure her that any proposals that will come forward What progress he has made on tackling backlogs in HM will of course involve the fullest consultation with the Courts and Tribunals Service. [909923] devolved Administrations and, indeed, of course the fullest respect for the devolved settlement. Laura Trott (Sevenoaks) (Con): What steps his Sir Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): Department is taking to reduce the backlog of court Can I welcome the tone of my right hon. and learned cases that has accumulated as a result of the covid-19 Friend’s statement and his very clear commitment to outbreak. [909942] supporting the independence of the judiciary? That is an absolute and fundamental principle of our constitution, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the and should never be undermined by anyone. Can I also Home Department (Chris Philp): Justice systems around welcome the terms of reference of the review, which are the world have been profoundly affected by the coronavirus balanced and measured in relation to the Human Rights pandemic, but I am pleased that the court system in Act and, in particular, the quality of the panel that has England and Wales has been among the world’s leaders been appointed? I happen to have known Sir Peter Gross in recovering from that pandemic. Magistrates court throughout my professional career, and he is known as disposals are now exceeding receipts, and 260 Crown both a man and a judge of the highest independence Court jury rooms are operating—more than we had and integrity, as are the other members of the panel. before the pandemic. Substantial additional resources, Perhaps my right hon. and learned Friend can reassure both people and money, have been put into the system, us that they will have a completely free hand to act as to ensure that our recovery continues to be world-leading. they think is appropriate within the terms of reference, without any pressure on their independence from any Jeff Smith: The Lowry theatre in Salford is being quarter. used as a nightingale court, which I think is a good idea and model because it brings income to a venue that has Robert Buckland: My hon. Friend the Chair of the been hit hard by the crisis. However, it is one of only Justice Committee is absolutely right to highlight the 16 courts that were up and running by the end of impeccable credentials of the chair, Sir Peter Gross, not November, and the chief executive of the Courts Service 697 Oral Answers 8 DECEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 698 has said that we need 200 to clear the backlog. What who is doing a fantastic job for the people of Kent, and number does the Minister think we now need to clear I look forward to that meeting happening in the near the backlog? future.

Chris Philp: As the hon. Gentleman says, 16 nightingale Mr Speaker: I am sure there must be a link to the courts are up and running, and the Ministry of Justice question there somewhere. has secured a total of just over £110 million in additional funding from the Treasury, to support not just those Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): The Lord nightingale courts, but many others as well. We intend Chancellor was keen to talk up his court successes in his to open further nightingale courts in the future. I am statement on Thursday, yet the situation remains dire in glad that the hon. Gentleman welcomes the use of the many parts of his Department, according to answers to Lowry theatre—we all do—and as I said, up to 260 Crown my written questions. The number of effective trials was Court jury rooms are now open and operational, which down from 19,000 in 2010 to 12,000 last year, and that is more than we had before the pandemic. was before covid; expenditure on recorder sitting days has halved from £19 million to less than £10 million since 2018; and disposals in care proceedings within the Seema Malhotra: The backlog for individual cases in legally required 26 weeks have collapsed to just 34%. employment tribunals has already passed the post-2008 This is about people’s lives, so will the Minister outline financial crisis record, with 37,000 workers in the queue. when victims, witnesses and families will get the court Analysis by Citizens Advice suggests that if that continues system they desperately need and justice will be properly to grow at the current rate, the number of outstanding served? claims could pass 500,000 by spring. When will the Minister take action at the scale necessary, and stop the Chris Philp: The shadow Minister makes reference to Chancellor’s jobs crisis becoming a justice crisis, by a reduction of trial numbers last year. Of course, that is targeting much needed support to employment tribunals? because crime is significantly down since 2010, when Labour left office.If there are fewer crimes being committed, Chris Philp: As I said, we are putting a great deal of there will be fewer trials in consequence; that is a extra resources into the justice system, including symptom of success. The outstanding case load in 2019 employment tribunals, to ensure that we recover from was in fact at a 10-year low. coronavirus. There is £110 million in total extra this As I have said already, we are fully committed to year, and a further 1,600 staff of Her Majesty’s Courts making sure that the justice system recovers from the and Tribunals Service across the entire system. The pandemic. That is why we have more Crown court jury hon. Lady mentions employment tribunals, and I am trial rooms open now than we did before the pandemic, pleased to report to the House that since the beginning we are consulting on having extended operating hours of October, disposal rates in the employment tribunals to allow more cases to be heard, we have put £110 million have been running at 740 a week. That is higher than the of extra money in, we have recruited 1,600 extra staff— level of disposals pre-pandemic, which was 718 a week. [Interruption.] It is working, as evidenced by the fact We hope and expect that that recovery will continue. that there are more magistrates court trials now than there were before the pandemic and disposals are exceeding Laura Trott: There has been a welcome focus from receipts. We will continue this work and make sure that the Department on domestic violence and sexual assault the recovery in this jurisdiction continues to lead the cases, including the landmark recent Domestic Abuse world. Bill. We know that a delay in bringing those types of cases to court can lead to a significant increase in Homophobia in Football attrition rates, and therefore convictions. Will Ministers focus particularly on bringing those types of cases to Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con): What court quickly, and will they meet me and the Kent discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues on police and crime commissioner,Matthew Scott, to discuss bringing forward legislative proposals to strengthen what more we can do? sentencing to tackle homophobia in football. [909922]

Chris Philp: My hon. Friend is right to draw attention The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice to that important area, and it is certainly a matter that (Alex Chalk): All hate crimes, including where motivated Ministers are mindful of and focused on. The judiciary by homophobia, are unacceptable. The courts already decided early on in the pandemic to prioritise domestic have powers to treat hostility based on sexual orientation violence protection orders, so that even when much of as a factor that aggravates the seriousness of an offence. the court system had stopped functioning in the immediate However, hate crime laws in England and Wales are aftermath of the first lockdown, DVPOs continued. As complex and are spread across different statutes. That is judges consider which cases to list, they are mindful of why the Government gave a commitment to carry out a my hon. Friend’s point about protecting vulnerable comprehensive review of hate crime legislation. That witnesses and victims. In addition, we have committed review is currently under way. £28 million extra to support domestic abuse services, and we have provided £800,000 to the finding legal Damian Collins: I am grateful to the Minister for his options for women survivors project, which provides answer and in particular for the review being done by free legal support to victims—my hon. Friend the Member the Law Commission at the moment, which is looking for Cheltenham (Alex Chalk) has been leading on that specifically at the incidence of homophobic abuse in work. I would be delighted to meet my hon. Friend and sports grounds. As the Minister will know, the Football the Kent police and crime commissioner, Matthew Scott, (Offences) Act 1991 defines “racialist” abuse—that is 699 Oral Answers 8 DECEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 700 the word it uses, which shows how old the Act is—but specifictoyouth,wehavepromotedparentalandcommunity not homophobic abuse. Clearly, there is no space for involvement in referral order panels and evaluated an abuse of any kind in a sports environment. In particular, updateof theYouthJusticeBoard’sethnicdisproportionality match day stewards and officials seem unclear of their toolkit. Beyond that, we have now ended automatic powers in these situations. disclosure of youth cautions on criminal records. We have put equalities plans in all young offenders institutions Alex Chalk: I thank my hon. Friend for the work that and are piloting the Chance to Change alternative to he has done on this issue.It has been noted and appreciated. charge, which was one of the recommendations of the He is absolutely right; from memory, it is question 57 of review. However, there is no quick fix and more work the Law Commission’s review of this precise issue. I will continue to be done. hope that that work progresses. The extraordinary thing about football is that so much of an advance has been Stephen Morgan: With fewer than half of the Lammy seen in respect of racism, yet homophobia still seems to review’s recommendations having been enacted and with exist, although I have to say that there is much better many others from many other reviews into deaths in work going on in the women’s game than the men’s. The custody still outstanding, what can the Secretary of men need to catch up. State do to assure black, Asian and minority ethnic communities that the Government are not just dragging Covid-19 in Prisons their feet on racial disparity in the justice system? Robert Buckland: I can assure the hon. Gentleman Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Green) (Lab): that that is far from the case. Indeed, 16 recommendations What steps the Government are taking to respond to have been completed. There are two recommendations covid-19 outbreaks in prisons. [909924] that we did not take up, but of the 17 that are still in progress, we aim to complete 11 within six to 12 months. The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lucy I am being told that the further six will take slightly Frazer): Throughout the pandemic, we have worked longer. That is not good enough for me and I will be really closely with Public Health England to respond to going back to my officials to make sure we make earlier any outbreaks in prison and to keep our staff and those progress. I can assure him that, as overall numbers go in our custody safe. We are taking a number of measures, down in the youth estate, what concerns me is that we which include compartmentalisation—keeping separate are still seeing a disproportionate number of BAME the vulnerable, those who are symptomatic and those children being held in custody, even though the overall who are coming into prisons from outside—as well as numbers are now dramatically fewer. There is clearly increased testing and more use of personal protective more work to be done on that front. equipment, including face masks, where it is appropriate. Sarah Owen: The Lammy review was published in Catherine West: During these tough times of covid, 2017 and it said that racial inequality and unfairness health and safety is more important than ever. Will the runs rife throughout our country’s justice system. At Minister consider introducing a hotline for staff so that that time, zero Supreme Court judges were black. That they can report health and safety breaches, particularly number is still zero. In fact, not a single Supreme Court around the covid question but in other regards as well, judge is from a black, Asian and minority ethnic given that prisons are a difficult place to work? background. Why does the Secretary of State think that is and what are his Government doing to change it? Lucy Frazer: I thank the hon. Lady very much for her suggestion. There are a number of hotlines available to Robert Buckland: Like the hon. Lady, I want to see staff. We work very closely with the unions on a local far more people from a diverse and BAME background level, as well as a national level, but I am very happy to in the senior judiciary. The truth is that the senior take away her suggestion to see whether it is necessary. judiciary is often a product of the supply into the legal professions some 20 or more years ago, when we know Youth Justice: Racial Disparity things were not as promising when it comes to diversity as they are now at the Bar, in solicitors’ practices, or for Stephen Morgan (Portsmouth South) (Lab): What legal executives and Government lawyers, for example. progress he has made on tackling racial disparity in the However, we cannot use that as an excuse, which is why youth justice system since the publication of the Lammy I am working hard with the senior judiciary and the review in September 2017. [909925] chair of the Judicial Appointments Commission, as part of the Judicial Diversity Forum. We are meeting Sarah Owen (Luton North) (Lab): What progress he again this week and in my convening role I am pushing has made on tackling racial disparity in the youth all sides, the Bar Council and the Law Society, to come justice system since the publication of the Lammy up with more plans and more engagement, so we can review in September 2017. [909941] help and support BAME candidates ahead of any application processes to level that playing field. Wes Streeting (Ilford North) (Lab): What progress he has made on tackling racial disparity in the youth Wes Streeting: In a 2020 update on progress against justice system since the publication of the Lammy the Lammy review, the Secretary of State said: review in September 2017. [909946] “It is crucial, if everyone is to have confidence in our system, that the people working in it reflect the diversity of Britain today.” The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice Yet in written answers to my hon. Friend the Member (Robert Buckland): Wehave taken important action across for Hove (Peter Kyle), the Ministry of Justice confirms thereviewrecommendations.Forthethreerecommendations that there are zero BAME staff working for the Youth 701 Oral Answers 8 DECEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 702

Justice Board outside London. What is the Secretary of affected. As he knows, around 200,000 disabled children State going to do to make sure the system reflects the could be affected by this in the coming eight years, communities those people are serving? unable to access their Government-backed child trust fund, so I urge him to continue the good work that he is Robert Buckland: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. doing and to really make sure that applications to the I know the new chair of the Youth Justice Board, Keith Court of Protection are the least onerous possible for Fraser, will be particularly concerned about that figure. the parents of these disabled children. I reassure the hon. Gentleman that in many other areas we are seeing BAME representation higher than the Alex Chalk: I thank my right hon. Friend for raising national average. For example, there is an extremely that issue on behalf of his constituents. He makes an encouraging figure for the probation service. I will look incredibly important point. We have a duty to make at that particular issue and discuss it with the chair of sure that the rights of those individuals are maintained, the YJB, because clearly he feels strongly about BAME but it is also important that, when there are loving issues and he will want to take appropriate action to see parents and all they want to achieve is the best for their what we can do to improve that. children, they are able to access that money in the interests of their children with the minimum of fuss, the Peter Kyle (Hove) (Lab): In 2016, 22% of kids sentenced minimum of bother and, frankly,the minimum of expense. were black and minority ethnic. Now, it is 27%. Some 41% of youth prisoners were black and minority ethnic. Female Offender Strategy Now, it is over half. The proportion of black and minority ethnic young people subject to the use of force Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) in youth prisons has gone up from 41% to 48% since the (Lab): What progress he has made on implementing the Lammy review. This Government have been in power female offender strategy. [909927] for 10 years. It has been two years since the Lammy review. It is not that not enough progress has been Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab): What progress he has made; things are going backwards. Why should anybody made on implementing the female offender strategy. have faith that this lot can sort it out? [909929]

Robert Buckland: With respect to the hon. Gentleman, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lucy he is just wrong about that—totally wrong. In the last Frazer): The female offender strategy launched an ambitious 10 years, there has been a fall of 83% in the number of programme to improve outcomes for female offenders children receiving a caution or a sentence, and last year and make society safer by tackling the causes of offending. there was a fall of 19%. That means in actual numbers It will take several years to deliver, but, two years on, we of lives and families, the number of children and BAME are making good progress.Wehave invested over £5 million children affected is reducing. I accept the point about in 30 women’s services across England and Wales, and disproportionality—I acknowledged it earlier—but it is we are in the process of allocating a further £2.5 million a calumny to say that the Government are inactive or to increase the financial stability of those providing uninterested in the issue. Wehave made incredible progress these important services. in 10 years. The child population in our young offender institutions or other institutions is now down to about Debbie Abrahams [V]: Under the Bail Act 1976, the 500. That is a generational low, and he should pay courts can remand an adult to prison for their own tribute to the Government for presiding over such dramatic “protection” or a child for their own “welfare”. This change. even happens when the criminal charge cannot result in a conviction. Weare restricting a person’s liberty—usually Child Trust Funds: Children with Learning Disabilities someone with complex mental health needs, and often women—because of the failure to provide the appropriate Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con): What treatment, care or support in the community. Will the steps his Department is taking to improve access to Minister support the repeal of this outdated, offensive child trust funds for parents of young adults with and draconian power, which is contrary not only to learning disabilities. [909926] human rights, but to human decency?

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice Lucy Frazer: The hon. Member will know that we are (Alex Chalk):As a young person turns 18, the contents looking at the Mental Health Act 1983 provisions and of their child trust fund belong to them and them alone, reviewing them. Wenever think that it should be appropriate whether or not they have a learning disability, which is to use prison as a place of safety. Combined with that, an important point of principle, but for those loving we recognise the need to tackle mental health issues in parents who, for good reason, want legal authority to all those who come through the justice system, particularly access those funds, we want to make the process more women, because women have a high incidence of mental cost-effective and more straightforward. As a result, health needs. We will be looking carefully at how we can fees can now be waived in appropriate cases and we commit further funds to ensure that women and men have set up a working group to work quickly alongside get the services they need to help to turn their lives the judiciary to review the process, with a view to around. streamlining it while maintaining vital safeguards. Tony Lloyd [V]: We know that the majority of women Stephen Crabb: I thank the Minister for that answer, sentenced for non-violent crimes are given short prison the work that he is doing on this issue and the letter he sentences, which are totally ineffective in rehabilitation wrote to me this week about my constituents who are but can split up families, put children into care and lead 703 Oral Answers 8 DECEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 704 to eviction from the home—all things that we should the course of justice, removing human tissue without not want to happen. Women’s centres are successful, as consent and so on. We will of course keep the law under we know in Greater Manchester. They are cost-effective, review. but also much better in human terms and better for society. Can the Minister guarantee that we will enhance Dr Mullan: I thank the Minister for that reply. I am the investment in those centres and get women who supporting the campaign of the mother of Helen McCourt, should not be in prison out of prison and into the kind whom we know in this place for successfully campaigning of care that makes a difference to them and to society? on Helen’s law, but who is equally determined, while understanding the points the Minister has made, to see Lucy Frazer: The hon. Member makes a very important further reform so that the criminal justice system adequately point: we need to ensure that we support women not reflects how we would feel if one of our loved ones was only in custody, but outside it. He will have heard me desecrated after death. Will he agree to meet me and mention that we are in the midst of a £2.5 million discuss with Helen McCourt’s mother further steps we funding exercise, in which some of the money will go to might be able to take? community centres. However, we are doing other things as well, such as improving pre-sentence reports to ensure Alex Chalk: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that women get the right order and go into the community, raising that excellent point and for paying tribute to not into custody, where that is appropriate. He will also Mrs McCourt, whose brave campaign has led to Helen’s have heard me announce recently our first residential law, as he rightly indicates, getting on to the statute women’s centre, which will be in Wales and which we book, having recently received Royal Assent, in large are progressing with. It is for those women who are on part because of her campaigning activity. We keep the the cusp of custody, but whom we do not want to put in matter under review, and I would be delighted to meet custody where we can avoid that, so that they can him, as he suggests. instead be ordered by the court to go into a residential women’s centre, which will better look after their needs. Drug Use in Prisons Ms Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab) [V]: The female offenders strategy published in 2018 by the then Justice David Simmonds (Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner) Secretary and Prime Minister got it right. One woman (Con): What steps his Department is taking to tackle in every three in prison self-harms. They are twice as drug use in prisons. [909930] likely as men to have mental health needs and more likely to have drug problems. According to those Ministers, Dr Dan Poulter (Central Suffolk and North Ipswich) short-term prison sentences (Con): What steps his Department is taking to reduce “do more harm than good”, drug dependency in prisons. [909936] but last year, half of all women’s sentences were of less than three months, and the plan is to increase The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lucy the women’spopulation by 40%. Why have these Ministers Frazer): Justice colleagues work closely with our Health so quickly abandoned the promises made by their partners, and since April 2018 a national partnership predecessors? agreement on prison healthcare in England has been in place. Tackling drugs is a priority within that agreement. Lucy Frazer: I refute the claim that we are changing In April last year, we published the national prison drug our policy in any way. As the police are funded to search strategy, which focuses on three strands: tackling drugs out and investigate further crime with our 20,000 additional in prison by restricting supply, reducing demand and officers on the beat, it is inevitable that some further helping to ensure that we turn people’s lives around by women will go to prison as a result, and it is our building recovery from drugs and substance misuse. obligation to ensure that there is a safe place for them to go. We, too, are concerned about women coming through David Simmonds: I know that the Lord Chancellor short sentences, but the judiciary makes those independent and his Department have previously made known their decisions on short sentences, and we are ensuring that support for the Prisons (Substance Testing) Bill, led by when people do come through on short sentences, they my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and will have specific probation officers looking after them Amersham (Dame Cheryl Gillan). Given that the Bill in the new, reformed probation system to ensure that would make such a difference in this area, will my hon. those women, and men, get the support that they need. and learned Friend reaffirm that support today and give an indication of the timescale according to which we Desecration of Corpses: Criminalisation might expect the legislation to appear?

Dr Kieran Mullan (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con): What Lucy Frazer: I am so glad that my hon. Friend has assessment his Department has made of the potential raised this question, because we wholly support the Bill merits of criminalising the desecration of a corpse. introduced by my right hon. Friend the Member for [909928] Chesham and Amersham (Dame Cheryl Gillan). It is going to help us to tackle illicit substance misuse and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice help people to get their lives back on track by identifying (Alex Chalk): The bodies of those who have died should who is taking drugs and how we can better support be treated with dignity and respect. Where that does not them. I am pleased to note that the Bill is scheduled for happen, the criminal law can intervene and there are a consideration on Report and Third Reading on 22 January, number of offences that may apply: preventing the and, should it receive Royal Assent, we will be implementing lawful burial of a body,outraging public decency,perverting the provisions at the earliest opportunity. 705 Oral Answers 8 DECEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 706

Dr Poulter [V]: As the Minister will be aware, it is guidelines for judges on domestic abuse, which outline equally as important to ensure that there is proper that the domestic setting of the offending behaviour rehabilitation and support on substance dependency makes it more serious. As he knows, these are matters when people are released from prison. That is equally that we are looking at in our sentencing White Paper. important in ensuring that we break the cycle of reoffending, but, far too often, arrangements are not in place adequately Community Sentence Treatment Requirements to support people once they are released. What can she do to reassure me that the Government are taking this issue seriously and will put in place better arrangements Sally-Ann Hart (Hastings and Rye) (Con): What to support substance misusers with dependency issues steps the Government are taking to increase the use of once they are released from prison? community sentence treatment requirements. [909932]

Lucy Frazer: My hon. Friend raises a really important The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the question. We are doing a number of things, and I shall Home Department (Chris Philp): My hon. Friend is highlight two of them. First, as I mentioned, in relation right to raise community sentence treatment requirements to our probation services, we are getting that help to as an important area to push, expand and develop. The people earlier, so that a probation officer will be working Government firmly believe that, where someone has with a prisoner on his or her release at an earlier stage, mental health problems, or drug or alcohol addiction so as to help them to get that support organised in the causing the offending behaviour, treating the causes of community.The second thing that we are doing, working the offending is very often a much better sentence than closely with NHS England, is rolling out our Reconnect a short custodial term in terms of rehabilitation and service. That service links up the healthcare in the reducing reoffending. So we certainly intend to expand prison with the healthcare in the community, which are the roll-out of these. They operate already in 14 areas not always aligned. The Reconnect service is being and we intend to make sure that half the country is rolled out across the country. covered for mental health treatment through CSTRs by 2023-24. We are looking at other ways in which we can Sentencing Regime for 17-year-olds speed up the roll-out even further. Sally-Ann Hart: The new probation system is set to James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): What plans he be in place in the next few months, with unpaid work has to reform the sentencing regime for 17-year-olds. and key programmes to stop criminals reoffending to be [909931] delivered by Her Majesty’s Prison and Probation Service from next June. Seetec has recently been awarded a The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lucy Ministry of Justice contract for a co-financing organisation Frazer): I thank my hon. Friend for his correspondence activity hub in the south-east region, to deliver support regarding the reforms in the sentencing White Paper. to help offenders reintegrate back into society. The hub All offenders, including 17-year-olds, who commit the will be based in Chatham, with a satellite provision in most serious offences and who pose a risk to the public my constituency at St Leonards-on-Sea. Can my hon. should serve time in custody that reflects the seriousness Friend confirm that there is still a role for the private of their offending. To reduce the gap between the sector in offender rehabilitation, even if not by community sentencing of older children and younger adults for rehabilitation companies? murder, we plan to replace the blanket starting point of 12 years for murder committed by a child with a sliding Chris Philp: My hon. Friend asks a good question. scale to reflect age and the severity of the offence. CRCs are being transitioned out and the probation service will take over organising this activity, but within James Gray: Young Ellie Gould was brutally murdered that there will be opportunities for private sector, or in her own home in Calne in my constituency last year. indeed charitable sector, organisations to bid to provide Her assailant, Thomas Griffiths, was given a sentence certain kinds of activity and certain kinds of rehabilitation of 12 and a half years because he was 17. The sentence work via the dynamic framework. We envisage eventually was further ameliorated by the fact that he did not spending about £100 million a year on procuring these bring the weapon to the murder scene, but picked up a services via the dynamic framework. Any organisation, kitchen knife at the scene. He was 18 when he was such as the one she mentions, that has something to convicted and given 12 and a half years. I very much offer and can help with rehabilitation is, of course, welcome the fact that the Minister is considering this strongly encouraged to bid for those services to make matter. Does she not agree that 12 and a half years for a sure we are drawing on the full range of available crime of that sort committed by a boy aged 17 years services as we try to rehabilitate offenders and build a and eight months is woefully inadequate? He should better life for their future and protect our constituents have got the 15 to 25 years he would have got had he as well. been an adult. Mr Speaker: We are not going to Greater Manchester, Lucy Frazer: I cannot begin to imagine what Ellie as we have him here—welcome, Andrew Gwynne. Gould’s parents must have been through. In addition to the point that I made about introducing a sliding scale to reflect age and severity, I want to make it clear that Topical Questions we are considering a particular minimum threshold for those who are 17. My hon. Friend mentioned the knife [909979] Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): already being present at the scene of crime, in the home. If he will make a statement on his departmental He will know that the Sentencing Council has produced responsibilities. 707 Oral Answers 8 DECEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 708

The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice is submitted. I am happy to extend the public consultation (Robert Buckland):Justice is a vital public service and a and my officials are in communication with the local cornerstone of our success as a society, which is why the council regarding that. Chancellor of the Exchequer announced huge investment in the system as part of his recent spending review. Part Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP): Back of that money will go towards the recovery and restoration to the independent review of the Human Rights Act. of justice from the effects of covid-19, notably in the The Lord Chancellor has said that, after 20 years, it is Crown courts, and to support victims as they make time to see whether the Act is working effectively, but their difficult journeys through the system, including the terms of reference do not actually contain any the family courts and tribunals. The spending review reference to an analysis of whether it is working effectively. announced £105 million for the maintenance of courts Recently the Joint Committee on Human Rights found and tribunals, and there was also £4 billion to build that most black people living in the United Kingdom back better in the prison estate, with 18,000 additional believe that their human rights are not equally protected places in the pipeline plan for the mid-2020s, helping us compared with those of white people. That is a shocking to deliver modern, green prisons that can be launching finding. Does not that finding alone justify a proper pads for rehabilitation. We are moving at pace with the examination of whether the Act is working effectively first of our new prisons, HMP Five Wells, which is and, if so, why is that not in the terms of reference? opening in 2022, while continuously increasing resources for the maintenance of our existing prison estate. This Robert Buckland: The hon. and learned Lady knows investment continues to deliver on the Government’s that I gave evidence to the Committee of which she is a crime agenda, keeping the public safe, delivering a green member about a week or so ago and acknowledged the revolution and bringing our prisons into the 21st century. important point made by the Committee. I think it was important for us to set up a very focused review as to Andrew Gwynne: I thank the Justice Secretary for the machinery of the Human Rights Act. It is not about that, but judicial review is the only way in which the the rights themselves; it is about the way in which they public can challenge the Government when they believe interact with our domestic law and the interplay, therefore the Government have acted unlawfully. It is important looking in particular at sections 2, 3 and 4, for example, that we keep that protection in place for the public to of the Human Rights Act. However, I am sure that hold the Government to account, so will he commit these wider issues will become part of the debate as we today to fully publishing the independent review of see the recommendations come forward and as this administrative law? place has an opportunity to play its part in those deliberations. Robert Buckland: I agree with the hon. Gentleman [909981] Damien Moore (Southport) (Con): I commend about the central importance of judicial review, and he my right hon. and learned Friend and his Department will remember that that is set out in the terms of for the minimal impact that the covid pandemic has had reference. The review will report shortly, the Government on our courts system. Can I ask when it will return to will respond and the whole documentation will be published. normal? Can I also ask that he review contingencies The question of submissions to the review is a matter should they be needed in the very near future? for the review, but I assure him that the outcome will, of course, be published as part of the Government’s policy position in due course. Robert Buckland: My hon. Friend can be reassured that the Courts and Tribunals Service is working daily to review its plans. I am sure that he will be glad to note [909980] Greg Smith (Buckingham) (Con): Last week, that, in the magistrates courts, we are now exceeding a three-week consultation was launched on proposals receipts and we expect the position to return to pre-covid for a new prison adjacent to Grendon and Spring Hill levels by about Easter time or the early summer. The prisons in my constituency. With nearby communities position of the Crown court is more challenging, but already dealing with massive pressures and parish the funding that we have obtained through the spending councils overstretched with day-to-day issues with the review will allow us to start dealing with the backlog. construction of things such as HS2, three weeks is just We also constantly review the social distancing measures. not long enough to ensure that everyone has their voice The current assumptions are that social distancing will heard. So will my right hon. and learned Friend apply until the end of June. If there is any progress on commit to extending the consultation, so that that front, clearly we will recalibrate, which will give us everybody in my constituency can have their say? even more capacity.

Robert Buckland: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I [909982] Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): know that he met my colleague the Minister of State for The chief constable of West Midlands police, MPs, Prisons and Probation at the end of November to local councillors and others have all expressed concern discuss the issue of the consultation. I know the site about the large number of people being released from well, having visited both Grendon and Spring Hill, and jails all around the country to unsuitable exempt I pay tribute to the staff and, indeed, to the community accommodation in Birmingham. How can that possibly for supporting the prisons that exist in that part of his help with rehabilitation and getting these people back constituency. We are considering all comments and on the straight and narrow? suggestions sent to us through the consultation before we submit any outline planning application. I can assure Robert Buckland: The hon. Gentleman will be glad to him that the local community will also have an opportunity note that, throughout this pandemic, the Ministry of to provide further feedback once a planning application Justice has funded accommodation support for people 709 Oral Answers 8 DECEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 710 who otherwise would be released into rough sleeping [909984] Gary Sambrook (Birmingham, Northfield) and homelessness. Indeed, we are working on plans as (Con): Will the Secretary of State outline to the House result of the spending review to scale up and improve what steps he has taken so far to ensure that the approved premises and the other type of accommodation Independent Monitoring Authority for the Citizens’ that can house in an appropriate way people who are Rights Agreements will be ready for the end of the released from custody. I shall furnish the House with an transition period, so that it can effectively monitor the update as soon as it is received, but he can be assured rights of European Union and European economic that we are working on this issue because we recognise area citizens? the scale of the problem. Robert Buckland: My hon. Friend is right to raise an [909983] Imran Ahmad Khan (Wakefield) (Con): The important issue that we undertook to get ready by the Criminal Cases Review Commission is the only body in end of the year. I am confident that it will be ready by its area of jurisdiction with the authority to send cases the end of the transition period to provide EU, EEA back to an appeal court. It is imperative that this and European Free Trade Association citizens here in process must not be delayed, as it has the propensity to the UK with an additional layer of assurance that their overturn cases and clear the names of those innocent of rights will be safeguarded. We have had a dedicated conviction. Can my right hon. and learned Friend outline project team in the Ministry working on that, and the the steps that he is taking to ensure that the CCRC IMA has taken up residence at headquarters in Swansea, enacts its duty in a timely manner, especially for more my old stamping ground—with tribute to the hon. sensitive cases, including those of our frontline workers Member for Swansea East (Carolyn Harris). and police officers, such as my constituent Danny Major? Mr Major has been miserably let down by the CCRC. [909988] Wendy Chamberlain (North East Fife) (LD): Mr Speaker: Order. Unfortunately, questions are meant Over the last few weeks, there have been concerning to be short and punchy. We cannot have a statement reports that there were more cases of covid in prisons beforehand. Minister, can you deal with that, please? in October than in the previous seven months combined. In some prisons, that has led to restrictive The Minister for Crime and Policing (Kit Malthouse): regimes that have had a real impact on mental health. My hon. Friend raises an extremely important point. I What conversations has the Lord Chancellor had with understand his consternation on behalf of his constituent the Secretary of State for Health about when we should and his wish that that case in particular be dealt with be vaccinating prisoners in order to protect prison staff speedily.No doubt the commission will have paid attention and prevent hotspots from forming? to his concern. We have recently invested significantly in the commission, with hundreds of thousands of pounds Robert Buckland: It is important to note that, as a in capital funding to ensure that its IT is up to scratch. result of increased diagnosis and testing, we have been It is within a whisker of reaching its target of 36 weeks able to establish with greater certainty the number of as the average time taken to deal with a case, and of prisoners who are symptomatic or asymptomatic. We 85% of cases being dealt with in under 12 months. It is were not able to do that in the first wave, so the true very important for the integrity of the judicial system numbers of covid sufferers were probably not clear to not only that we convict the guilty, but that we make us; they are much clearer now.With regard to vaccination, sure that innocent people who are erroneously convicted it is important that we prioritise those who are the most have their sentences corrected. vulnerable and at risk of death or serious illness. That is why, as with the rest of the population, we will be [909985] Carolyn Harris (Swansea East) (Lab): inoculating the older part of the population and those Increasingly we have seen individuals with a gambling who are vulnerable. That will inevitably include staff, on addiction committing crime to fund their habit. These whom I place a very high premium, and some prisoners. crimes inevitably end up being punished with custodial We will continue to work with Public Health England sentences, yet the gambling industry—which is often and Public Health Wales to ensure that we bear down complicit, encourages these individuals to continue on covid in our prisons. gambling and always profits from the situation—is not held accountable and escapes prosecution. Will the Lord Chancellor meet me and the officers of the [909986] Theresa Villiers (Chipping Barnet) (Con): Some gambling related harm all-party parliamentary group very impressive work is done by the charitable sector in to discuss how we can rectify this outrageous and supporting ex-offenders to deal with addiction problems. indefensible lack of accountability? Will the Lord Chancellor ensure that his Department takes very seriously the importance of rehabilitation of offenders by enabling them to leave the substance abuse Robert Buckland: I pay tribute to the hon. Lady for problems behind them, in the past? her consistent and passionate campaigning on this important issue, which is an addiction for far too many people. As she knows, my right hon. Friend the Secretary Kit Malthouse: My right hon. Friend raises a critical of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport will issue for us in the prevention of crime, behind which so make a statement on gambling later, which I know she much substance abuse lies. While she is right that the will broadly welcome. Of course, I will be happy to meet charitable sector has a huge role to play, so do we. She her and members of the APPG. Primarily,the Department will be pleased to know that earlier this week I had an for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport holds the brief on interview with one of the first recipients of our alcohol this issue, but no doubt there are wider criminal law sobriety bracelets, who has, for the first time in his ramifications on which I am happy to engage with her. memory, been alcohol-free for the last two months. He 711 Oral Answers 8 DECEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 712 said to me—it was very moving—that it had literally continue to scale up the number of trials being heard. saved his life. As well as doing good to his society, we In fact, in the past week or so, I have been looking at have done good for him. figures of effective trials, crack trials and trials that have been dealt with by way of a guilty plea: the numbers are [909989] Afzal Khan (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab) [V]: now in the high 300s. We need to get that up, and I am The Government have made countless mistakes during confident that we can do that in the new year to return the coronavirus crisis that could have been unlawful, us to the pre-covid levels, and then work even harder. including failing to provide health and care staff with adequate personal protective equipment, and sending [909990] Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) hospital patients back to care homes without testing (Con): Earlier this year, another child was tragically them. Will the Secretary of State confirm that any stillborn after a failed forceps birth at an Essex hospital. changes to judicial review will not affect cases related There were calls for a coroner’s investigation until it was to Government failure over coronavirus? pointed out that coroners have no power. But of course they do under clause 4 of the Civil Partnerships, Marriages Robert Buckland: With respect to the hon. Gentleman, and Deaths (Registration etc) Act 2019, which was he perhaps misses the whole point of the judicial review— passed 19 months ago. When will those regulations be independent review—which is all about making sure laid so that coroners have the power to investigate those that the current ambit of administrative law is in the tragic stillbirths? right place, in the sense that we want to make sure that our judiciary are not brought in to a merit space or a political arena. As for individual cases, it is clearly Kit Malthouse: I am a great admirer of my hon. stated in the terms of reference—and I will say it Friend and his persistent and effective campaigning on again—that the Government utterly support the right issues that are dear to him, but also to many people of citizens to challenge their actions or omissions by across the country. I understand his impatience on this way of judicial review. issue and I know he has been given assurances previously in the House about it, but he will understand that the effect of the pandemic, which has ruined so much, has [909987] Selaine Saxby (North Devon) (Con): A long-term view of victim funding will lead to better services and also delayed our consideration of the consultation on outcomes for victims of sexual assault, domestic abuse this matter. We will be publishing as soon as we possibly and serious violence. I therefore ask the Minister to can, recognising the enormous impact that this has on provide an update of work within the Department to particular families across the country. develop a long-term victims funding strategy to support those affected by crime in our communities. [909998] Martyn Day (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (SNP) [V]: During the current negotiations, the EU has Kit Malthouse: My hon. Friend raises an extremely asked for a guarantee that the UK will not do away with important point. When I was on the other side of the domestic law giving effect to the European convention table as an eager recipient of Whitehall largesse, it long on human rights, but the UK has refused. Does that not frustrated me that I had to spend six months spending tell us what the review of the Human Rights Act the money and then six months planning to bid for the announced yesterday is really all about? next round of money. She will know that in particular in this area, where we want to build resilience, out of the Robert Buckland: I am afraid the hon. Gentleman is hidden harms summit earlier this year came a commitment wholly misinformed. That certainly is not my understanding to create a victims funding strategy, which is currently of the negotiations, and he will forgive me if I say I am a under way, but she will also know that we have awarded little closer to them than he is. The review that we three-year funding through to 2022 via the rape support announced yesterday was about looking at the mechanism fund, to give sexual violence services greater stability in 20 years on—nothing to do with undermining or changing the future. I hope that will progress into all the areas fundamental human rights. We believe in them. It was that are concerned with this particular offence. British Conservatives who wrote the convention, and I will always stand for and uphold the importance of the [909991] Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) European convention on human rights. (Lab): According to solicitors in Warwick and Leamington, the court system dealing with criminals is at breaking point. They see it as being completely chaotic. I appreciate [909992] Marco Longhi (Dudley North) (Con): What that in the spending review the Government have announced steps are the Lord Chancellor and his team taking to additional money—£337 million—but the Law Society address the widespread perception among my constituents is calling for more. Will the Government actually accept that detention arrangements in prisons are not sufficiently what the Law Society is calling for and give additional robust to act as a deterrent? funding to break the backlog? Kit Malthouse: I understand that my hon. Friend is Robert Buckland: The hon. Gentleman will be glad to concerned about the perception of his constituents, but know that both the Law Society and the Bar Council I hope he will explain to them that we have quite agree that this year’s settlement was encouraging. Of interesting and clever plans to deal with offenders, not course, it is not the end of the story, and I have talked only in prison but after prison. For example, from early about us beginning to turn a corner. The good news in next year, we will GPS tag every single burglar who the magistrates courts is that receipts are now behind leaves prison on licence so that we are able to locate disposals, so we are dealing with the overall number of them, particularly when a burglary takes place in their cases in the magistrates system. In the Crown court, we community, so that we can at least rule out those 713 Oral Answers 8 DECEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 714 prolific offenders in the future. There is lots that we can crisis pre pandemic, which has only worsened through do in the criminal justice system that is much more the lockdown. Although the Ministry of Justice has smart than severe. provided additional welcome short-term funding, do the Government have a longer-term strategy to ensure Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): A that CAFCASS can better retain staff and deliver a third of prisoners transferring from HMP Altcourse to service that truly meets the needs of children and families? HMP Berwyn last month tested positive for covid. I understand that Berwyn has requested a stop to transfers. Robert Buckland: The hon. Lady will be glad to know Will the Secretary of State agree to that request, considering that an extra £3.4 million has been allocated to CAFCASS the extreme concerns about community infection? to help it through the crisis. Indeed, I take the point about long-term planning. In fact, we are looking wholesale Robert Buckland: The hon. Lady knows that, since at the way in which family cases are dealt with. The the beginning of this pandemic, we have taken family harms report published this year was a no-holds unprecedented steps. All new arrivals in prison receptions barred analysis of what is wrong with the system, and are quarantined as part of our strategy of compartment- both I and senior judiciary within the family division alisation. We are also now testing new arrivals at HMP will do something about it. Berwyn. That is an additional measure that allows us to identify positive cases early and put the right precautions Mr Speaker: In order to allow the safe exit of hon. around those individuals. It is with testing that we can Members participating in this item of business and the improve the way in which we administer the prison safe arrival of those participating in the next, I am system through this crisis. suspending the House for three minutes. Munira Wilson (Twickenham) (LD): Ministers will be aware that the Children and Family Court Advisory 12.37 pm and Support Service was already experiencing a workload Sitting suspended. 715 8 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19 Vaccine Roll-out 716

Covid-19 Vaccine Roll-out Jonathan Ashworth: The pictures today of 90-year-old Margaret Keenan receiving her vaccine, given by May Parsons, a nurse originally from the Philippines, is a 12.41 pm wonderful moment bringing home to all of us that there Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab/Co-op) is now light at the end of this very long tunnel. We are (Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for all beaming with pride for our NHS today. Let me put Health and Social Care, if he will make a statement on on record my thanks to all our NHS staff working so the covid-19 vaccine roll-out. hard today, tomorrow and in the coming weeks months in administering these jabs. I again pay tribute to all our The Secretary of State for Health and Social Care medical scientists, clinical researchers, regulators and (Matt Hancock): At 6.31 this morning, 90 year-old trial participants who have made today happen. We Margaret Keenan from Enniskillen, who lives in Coventry, should applaud them on our doorsteps. became the first person in the world to receive a clinically authorised vaccine for covid-19. This marks the start of I want to put a number of specific questions to the the NHS’s Herculean task to deploy vaccine right across Secretary of State. May I ask him about those areas that the UK, in line with its founding mission to support do not yet have a designated hospital hub? My city, people according to clinical need, not ability to pay. Leicester, has effectively never really left lockdown, This simple act of vaccination is a tribute to scientific impacting hugely on the wellbeing of our people and endeavour, human ingenuity and the hard work of so the economic prospects of our city. We are a diverse city many people. Today marks the start of the fight back with a high proportion of black, Asian and minority against our common enemy, coronavirus. ethnic communities, who we know are more at risk from While today is a day to celebrate, there is much work the virus. My constituents, Leicester University and the to be done. We must all play our part in suppressing the Leicester leadership are all deeply disappointed not to virus until the vaccine can make us safe and we can all see Leicester on the hospital hub list. I have been play our part supporting the NHS to deliver the vaccine lobbying the NHS about this in the past 48 hours, and across the country. This is a task with huge logistical people in Leicester will get vaccinated, but can he say challenges, including the need to store the vaccine at when areas like Leicester and other areas currently ultra-low temperatures and the clinical need for each without a hospital hub will get one? When will local person to receive two doses 21 days apart. I know that primary care network hubs be announced, and when the NHS will be equal to the task. I am sure we will do will the mass vaccination centres’locations be announced? everything we can—everything that is humanly possible—to Can he assure us that all vaccination centres and make sure that the NHS has whatever help it needs. communications will be accessible for those with disabilities and that staff will be appropriately trained? The first 800,000 doses of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine are already here in locations around the UK and the On care homes, I am grateful for the update the next consignment is scheduled to arrive next week. This Secretary of State gave us when he mentioned Christmas. week, we will vaccinate from hospitals across the UK. Does he anticipate that all care homes will have access From next week, we will expand deployment to start to the vaccine by Christmas? vaccinations by GPs and we will vaccinate in care Of course we have to vaccinate NHS staff—that is homes by Christmas. As more vaccines come on stream really important. Can he confirm that that includes in the new year, we will open vaccination centres in student nurses, medical students, physiotherapy students larger venues, such as sports stadiums and conference and so on? What plans are in place to ensure that harder halls. to reach groups—such as the homeless, for example—have People do not need to apply. The NHS will get in access to the vaccine? touch at the appropriate time and, when that time The Secretary of State has presumably seen the reports comes, we have one clear request: please step forward today in the Health Service Journal that £567 million of for your country. requested funding for covid projects was turned down. I want to thank all those involved—the international Can he guarantee that the NHS will get all the resources team of scientists; the globally respected regulator, the it requests to ensure the smooth and rapid roll-out of Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency; the vaccine? Public Health England; the vaccines taskforce; all the The Secretary of State indicated in the newspapers at volunteers who took part in the trial; all those who have the weekend that the tiers could be loosened by March come forward for vaccination so far; and all those who if uptake is successful. In the same way that we receive will do so in future. Months of trials involving thousands daily published figures on case numbers and tests processed, of people have shown that this vaccine works and is could we receive daily updates on vaccination doses safe. By coming forward, you are taking the best possible administered, and could it be by priority cohort? step to protect yourself and your loved ones, and to Finally, what are the plans to tackle anti-vax harm protect the NHS. online? I have literally just been sent a WhatsApp video Help is on its way and the end is in sight—not just of claiming that this is all a global plot to change our this terrible pandemic but of the onerous restrictions DNA. We know that harmful content circulates on that have made this year so hard for so many—but even Facebook and other platforms. This is garbage: how while we can now see the route out, there is still a long can we deal with it? march ahead. Let us not blow it now. There are worrying This is indeed a momentous day, and we can all look signs of the virus growing in some parts of the country, forward to a much better 2021. including parts of Essex, London and Kent. Over the coming weeks and months, we must all keep following Matt Hancock: That is right—we can all look forward the rules to keep people safe and make sure we can get to a much brighter 2021. We must stick with it for now, through this safely together. but we can see the way through this. 717 Covid-19 Vaccine Roll-out8 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19 Vaccine Roll-out 718

The hon. Gentleman asked several very reasonable take to ensure public trust in the vaccine’s safety and questions. We start today vaccinating in 70 locations effectiveness and to encourage take-up? What assurance across the UK, and we will expand these locations over can he give that there will be fairness in access to the the coming days. Today we will set out the next tranche vaccine until it is widely available, and when does he of hospital hubs, including Leicester, and vaccinations think it will be available to anyone who wants it? During in Leicester will start in the coming days. that period, will the UK Government commit to a On access to the vaccine, of course we need to make similar strategy to that of the Scottish Government of sure that it is available to all, and that includes all with pursuing the eventual elimination of the virus? disabilities and all our most vulnerable people, like With a vaccine now available, that is more possible than those who are sleeping rough. This will be best accomplished ever before. when we get the primary care community vaccination model rolled out, which will be in the coming weeks. We Matt Hancock: It is only with a vaccine that we can need to make sure that how we get the vaccine physically finally defeat this virus and get life back to normal. This out into the primary care networks can be assured as UK project has made huge strides forward, and I am safe, because obviously that is one step more difficult very, very grateful to NHS Scotland for the work that it than vaccinating from a hospital, hence we have started is doing right now in making sure that the vaccine can in hospitals and then we will get out into primary care reach people across Scotland, as the NHS is doing in and community delivery, and then into the vaccination Wales, Northern Ireland and England. It is a big team centres after the new year. effort, and it is because the UK vaccines taskforce was the first out of the blocks on buying the vaccine, along The hon. Gentleman asked about NHS students. The with the smart approach taken by the MHRA, that we definition of NHS and social care staff set out by the have been able to get to this point before any other Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation is country. those who are patient-facing, for obvious reasons. We will set out more details in due course. The hon. Gentleman asked about fairness in access. Absolutely—fairness is critical, hence we will follow the Finally,the hon. Gentleman asked about the publication clinical advice of the Joint Committee on Vaccination of data on the number of vaccines that have been and Immunisation on priority, again, right across the administered, and according to which priority groups. UK. Finally, I agree strongly with him—the hon. Member We will set out those details when the vaccinations have for Leicester South (Jonathan Ashworth) also raised taken place, so that people can see how the programme this, and I did not respond to it, so I shall now—that has been assessed. Overall, may I join him in saying how countering disinformation is incredibly important. That wonderful it was to see the pictures on the TV this is best done with positive information and explaining morning—emotional for many of us—and that I am objectively why and how the vaccine is safe. Something delighted that we have been able to make this progress? that we can all do in the House is talk positively about the benefits of the vaccine for keeping people safe and Jeremy Hunt (South West Surrey) (Con): Like many, keeping their community safe. I pay tribute to all those I would like to congratulate our scientists; I would like who have been willing to come forward and talk in to congratulate the Health and Social Care Secretary public, and I thank those who have already had the himself, the vaccines taskforce and NHS frontline staff, vaccine—since 6.30 this morning—and have been willing all of whom have made this extraordinary day for our to tell their story publicly to help others have the country possible. It is very, very cold outside, and the confidence to do the right thing. Finally, surveys of the question on many people’s minds is: are they now able UK population show that we have one of the highest to book a summer holiday? What is my right hon. acceptances of taking the vaccine in the world. The Friend’s answer to that question, and is there anywhere numbers who are enthusiastic about it are rising at the in particular that he would recommend if the answer moment, and we need to keep that going. is yes? Holly Mumby-Croft (Scunthorpe) (Con): I echo the Matt Hancock: It makes me very proud that we have Secretary of State’sthanks to the MHRA for its tremendous managed to start this vaccination programme sooner work in ensuring that this vaccine is safe. I look forward than many people anticipated. People told me that it to having my jab as soon as it is my turn, and I will was not going to be possible and that it was all very encourage everybody I love to do the same. Earlier this difficult. It has been difficult, but we have got there, and week, we learned that Scunthorpe General Hospital we did so because of international science, working was not among the first group of vaccination hubs. Can with German scientists and American pharmaceutical my right hon. Friend provide further clarity on how companies, and people right around the world working those hubs are allocated, and can he reassure me and on this project. I have high confidence that the summer my constituents in Scunthorpe, who are currently in of 2021 will be a bright one, without the sorts of tier 3, that we will receive the vaccine in the very restrictions that made the summer of 2020 more restricted. near future? I have booked my holiday—I am going to Cornwall. Matt Hancock: Yes, absolutely. We have started at Martyn Day (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (SNP) 70 hospitals across the UK. Those are the ones that are [V]: The commencement of a safe and effective vaccination best able to deal with the difficult logistics of a vaccine programme is extremely welcome, but recent studies have that has to be stored at minus 70° C. I understand the shown that as little as 54% of the UK population are desire for every hospital to get on that list, and we will certain to have the vaccination. There is a clear need to publish a further list later today. My local hospital, the counter misinformation, whether online scare stories or West Suffolk, is also not yet administering vaccines. The jingoistic nonsense, so what extra steps will the Minister other critical part of this is the primary care networks—the 719 Covid-19 Vaccine Roll-out8 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19 Vaccine Roll-out 720

[Matt Hancock] Joy Morrissey (Beaconsfield) (Con): May I thank my right hon. Friend for all he has done in his fight against community roll-out—which will get us to many, many the coronavirus, and may I thank the Department for more sites where people are able to access the vaccine, this roll-out of the vaccine? It is actually a monumental so that in Scunthorpe and across the whole of the UK, step in our fight against the coronavirus—just in time for everybody is able to access this vaccine as fairly and Christmas. It is the Christmas present we all wanted. safely as possible. Does my right hon. Friend agree with me that, because the UK was one of the first countries to secure the vaccine, Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): It is brilliant that we should be able to move more quickly out of local the vaccine programme is beginning, but unfortunately, restrictions in the new year, as the vaccine is rolled out? there are real question marks over who is benefiting from some of the covid-19 contracts. How will the Matt Hancock: Well, I very much hope so, but there Secretary of State ensure that cronyism and profiteering is some time between now and then, so we have got to do not become features of this stage of the covid-19 temper our joy and enthusiasm at today’s announcement response? with the need to keep on keeping each other safe between now and then. Let us not blow it, since we can Matt Hancock: Thankfully, as the National Audit see that the answer is on the horizon. Office set out, they have not been a feature of any of the I reiterate the point that my hon. Friend made about response to coronavirus, so that is good. the team in the Department, because my civil servants Damian Green (Ashford) (Con): Those on the frontline and special advisers have been amazing during this year. normally face bullets, so my right hon. Friend and his They have worked so hard—seven days a week, often entire team deserve the bouquets that they are receiving 18 hours a day—and they deserve enormous praise, today. I am delighted that the William Harvey Hospital because this is a team effort and nobody can do this sort in Ashford is already dispensing the vaccine. Does he of thing on their own. agree that one of the groups in greatest need who Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): First, could I say deserve it first are residents of care homes, who have what a positive news story it was this morning when faced such a miserable 2020? Margaret Keegan got her jab, followed by a fellow Matt Hancock: Yes, I do, and I hope that we can get called William Shakespeare, which I thought was quite the vaccine out to residents of care homes as soon as is interesting? I thank the Secretary of State and all those feasibly possible. They are in the top priority group who have made this happen, because it is really good clinically, and it is simply a question of how quickly we news. Will the Secretary of State outline whether he has can operationalise getting the vaccine out to care homes. liaised with the Treasury to secure the funding needed I hope that that can start before Christmas. I pay tribute to roll out this vaccine in the devolved nations, bearing to everybody working at the William Harvey Hospital in mind that we are behind on our flu vaccine roll-out in Ashford this morning, administering vaccines already and both cannot be carried out at the same time? and helping to protect the lives of my right hon. Friend’s Further, what discussions have taken place with the constituents. Secretary of State for Defence to provide trained military assistance in the devolved regions to make it happen? Munira Wilson (Twickenham) (LD): May I start by saying what a joyful moment it was this morning to see Matt Hancock: This year, I have sometimes turned those first vaccinations and thank everybody who has for inspiration to the bard: been involved in making this happen? I very much “If you prick us, do we not bleed?” welcome the Secretary of State’s optimism about our So it was a delight and a coincidence to find that summer holidays next year. However, I gently point out Mr William Shakespeare of Stratford-on-Avon, a that we have seen setbacks from some of the manufacturers constituent of the vaccine roll-out Minister, the in terms of when the doses of vaccine will be delivered. Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, With both Pfizer and AstraZeneca, it will apparently be my hon. Friend the Member for Stratford-on-Avon 3 million doses arriving by the end of the year, rather (Nadhim Zahawi)—by coincidence; Members should than the 30 million that were originally forecast. Does not get any ideas—was called forward to be the second he still think it is feasible that the most vulnerable will person to be vaccinated by the NHS. It is absolutely be vaccinated by the spring, and how many of those of terrific to see that people right across this United Kingdom us who are healthy under-50-year-olds might be vaccinated are being vaccinated right now according to need, and I by the school summer holidays? hope it can bring us all together. Matt Hancock: I understand why the hon. Lady and Dr Kieran Mullan (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con): Can many others want to know what the speed of the I start by joining my right hon. Friend in paying tribute roll-out will be.Because we are reliant on the manufacturing to the scientists, clinicians, trial volunteers and many process, which is itself a difficult challenge, we cannot others who have made it all possible? They have given put figures on when the roll-out will be. We hope that us the light at the end of the tunnel. We have to we will be able to lift the measures by the spring, and we remember that there were no guarantees that we would hope that we will all have a much more normal summer get any vaccine; to have at least one is fantastic. I am next year, but I do not want to put too much more detail glad to see a number of sites in the north-west have on it than that, and I cannot put more in terms of the been allocated for the roll-out, but my constituents will numbers, because there are so many contingencies. What probably be asking for and expecting somewhere closer we can be sure of, and what we can work and plan for, is to home—for example, at Leighton Hospital near Crewe the NHS being able to deliver the roll-out at the speed at and Nantwich. What are the plans for expanding the which the manufacturers can manufacture. sites available for vaccination? 721 Covid-19 Vaccine Roll-out8 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19 Vaccine Roll-out 722

Matt Hancock: Yes, we will keep expanding the sites Imran Ahmad Khan (Wakefield) (Con): I, too, commend available. Of course, I understand why people want the titanic effort of all those involved in the creation, their local hospital to be dispensing the jab. Alongside manufacturing and distribution of the covid-19 vaccine. hospitals and those vaccination centres, we will make As more and more of us are vaccinated against covid-19, sure that we have sites in the community, and we will get will my right hon. Friend outline what plans there are to them going just as soon as it is safely possible. ease the most draconian measures across the tier system, so that people and businesses can sensibly return to Dr Rupa Huq (Ealing Central and Acton) (Lab): This normal? brilliant news, on which I also congratulate everyone, contrasts with the rather alarming revelations last night Matt Hancock: While the vaccine rolls out, the best that we may be veering towards a no-deal Brexit. If that way to get any area down through the tiers is to continue does occur, could the Secretary of State guarantee that to follow the restrictions that are, unfortunately, still there will be no disruption to the supply chains for all absolutely necessary to keep people safe. Having said these different vaccines—AstraZeneca, Moderna, Pfizer— that, because we have a vaccine, the faster we can roll it and will he also rectify the rather Ealing-shaped hole in out, the sooner we can get to the point where we get rid hospital provision in north-west London? Wehave 360,000 of the system altogether. people, and we were No. 1 in London for cases recently, so that does need fixing. Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP) [V]: If I had not been on the call list for this urgent question, I would have Matt Hancock: There is very significant provision for been joining friends and colleagues of Leslie, to pay our vaccination in London. I will take up the specific point final respects to a warm-hearted man who sadly lost his about Ealing, but London, thankfully, is a very well life to the virus. Thinking of his family, and what connected and interconnected city. To assure the hon. happened to him, brings home to all of us how urgent it Member on the point about logistical disruption, we is to get a vaccination programme up to speed as have five contingency plans in total to ensure that we quickly as possible. That can happen only if a significant can continue with the vaccination supply no matter the proportion of the population accept the vaccine. My differing types of disruption. hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Martyn Day) has highlighted the dangers if too many Mary Robinson (Cheadle) (Con) [V]: I am delighted people are taken in by the scare stories circulating on that Stepping Hill Hospital in my constituency will be social media, and people can also be put off if they see part of this historic day as the coronavirus vaccine politicians responding with too much bombast or jingoism programme begins. Along with rapid testing, tracking to the start of the vaccination programme. May I commend and isolating, we aim to bring our covid rates down the Secretary of State sincerely for the measured tone further, prior to the tier review next week. In welcoming that he has adopted today? Will he encourage his ministerial this fantastic news, does my right hon. Friend agree that colleagues to be similarly measured in any future we must not lose sight of the importance of “Hands, pronouncements that they make about this important face, space” as a key way to keep us virus-free while the day in the battle against covid? vaccine is rolled out to the rest of the population? Matt Hancock: All of us in Government feel encouraged Matt Hancock: Yes, my hon. Friend is completely by today’s progress, but we are also determined and right. We must all keep doing the basics—“Hands, face resolute to get through this in the safest way possible, and space”, respecting the rules, and living carefully and out into the brighter seas beyond, when we can get with personal responsibility, so as to minimise the chance rid of the restrictions altogether. I agree with the hon. of passing on the disease asymptomatically. We must Gentleman about how important it is that we all keep keep doing that even while we have this great news of that resolve, not least because of the example that he set the vaccine which, as many have put it, is the light at the out, and I send my commiserations and those of the end of the tunnel. Government to his constituent. Many of us have suffered loss during this pandemic, and we want it to be over as Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab) [V]: soon as we can. We must keep going until it is safe to This is a momentous day, and I look forward to receiving do so. my vaccine when it is my turn. I thank those who are being vaccinated, those who took part in the trials, and David Johnston (Wantage) (Con): May I add my all those who worked to make this happen. I understand congratulations to my right hon. Friend and the many that the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation people who got us to the heart-warming images that we has set a priority list for vaccines based on clinical saw this morning? A lot of the highest priority groups vulnerability, but that has made people who were on the in my constituency live in more remote villages rather frontline of the crisis, including unpaid family carers, than in towns, and there are issues from transport feel as if they are being ignored. Our immediate priority connections to a fear of going out. Will my right hon. during this phase of vaccinations has to be reducing Friend assure me that those factors that affect more deaths, but once the most vulnerable have been vaccinated, remote locations are being included in the planning for will the Secretary of State say whether unpaid carers the roll-out? will become a priority for vaccination? Matt Hancock: One hundred per cent. That is a very Matt Hancock: The hon. Lady and I agree that important point, and it is important right across the clinical need must be the priority, and once we have country, especially, if I may say so, in Scotland and reached all those with a significant clinical need, as set Wales. We have the primary care network community out by the JCVI, we will set the next stage of priorities roll-out, which aims to get the vaccine out into the in due course. community as close to where people live as possible. 723 Covid-19 Vaccine Roll-out8 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19 Vaccine Roll-out 724

Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): The start of involved, and will the Secretary of State commit to vaccinations is excellent news, and it is excellent news being open and transparent and publishing the contracts for my constituents that Aintree Hospital is one of the and all the paperwork that goes with them? first in the country for the roll-out. The Health Secretary rightly said, “Let’s not blow it.” We still need to fix the Matt Hancock: Of course I will defend to the end the gaps in contact tracing and in financial support for those work that we did to get the PPE roll-out to which the who need to self-isolate. Only 11% of people are being hon. Lady refers. Of course we had priority contracts, contacted, according to the figures that I am getting, because we wanted, when somebody had a good lead, and we still need to learn from contact tracing in east to be able to see if we could make an arrangement as Asia. Will he put resources into local public health fast as possible, but that was all done through the teams, which are much better placed to fill those gaps, proper processes, as the NAO report sets out. She so that contact tracing plays its part while we wait for asks—I have a lot of respect for the hon. Lady, but the roll-out of the vaccine across the country? really—whether private companies will be involved in the vaccine roll-out. Try Pfizer or BioNTech, the people Matt Hancock: The hon. Gentleman is right in principle who came up with and are manufacturing this vaccine. that contact tracing and the testing roll-out are still Without them, we would not have a vaccine at all, and a critical while the vaccine roll-out happens. I am glad to bit of a thank you would do well from the Chair of the say that his reports of only 11% being contacted are not Public Accounts Committee. right; the figure is much higher than that. I am also Mr Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con): I join the really pleased that in the Liverpool city region, which Secretary of State in thanking the NHS staff in my includes his Sefton constituency, we are now rolling out Gloucestershire Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust who community testing much more widely, with the support are in the first 50 hospitals to be rolling out the vaccine. of local teams. I hope that he will help us all in putting a That is very welcome, including to my constituents. shoulder to the wheel in that effort. Given that he was right to be a little cautious about the speed at which we will be able to get this vaccine rolled Tom Hunt (Ipswich) (Con): I do not actually think it out, it seems to me not right that we should keep every has happened by accident that we are the first country single restriction in place until we have rolled out the in the world to have approved this vaccine. We saw very vaccine to the entire population. The onus still remains emotive images today, and I make no apology for being on the Government to justify every restriction and the proud of that. This is a proud day to be British. I would balance between the benefits of reducing covid, the like to thank the NHS and all our wonderful scientists economic impact and the non-covid health harm. May for being part of that, and the regulatory authority. I ask the Government to set out that detail before the I was glad last year to hear—last year? A couple of House is asked to take another decision on these restrictions days ago. [Laughter.] I was glad to hear that East in January? Suffolk and North Essex NHS Foundation Trust is going to be one of the first to get the vaccine.Unfortunately, Matt Hancock: The House might be relieved to know Ipswich currently does not have the facilities to store it. that my right hon. Friend and I agree with each other I am obviously keen for my vulnerable constituents to on the need to ensure that, as the vaccine is rolled out to get access to that vaccine ASAP, so I just want to know vulnerable groups, we monitor the impact of the vaccine what the plans are in the very short term, before any on reducing cases, reducing hospitalisations and reducing community roll-out, to make sure that Ipswich constituents the number of people who sadly die from this disease, can get access in Colchester, and for storage facilities in and take that basis for the judgment of how soon we Ipswich Hospital to make sure that we can move forward. can lift the restrictions. He and I want to lift the restrictions as soon as is safely possible, and the question Matt Hancock: My hon. Friend’s constituents will be of the judgment on how safely is one that we will have able to access the vaccine in Colchester from now, and to monitor and debate in this House over the coming some will be being called forward. Like many others, he weeks and months. rightly asks for the vaccination roll-out to reach Ipswich itself, and it will reach Ipswich itself just as soon as we Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): can get that sorted. I have a lot of sympathy with what When we speak about vulnerable groups, will the Secretary he said about two days feeling like a year! of State assure me that we will not forget those who are homeless? We know that people who are homeless, Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ especially those who are sleeping rough, suffer many Co-op): It is a great day for medicine, science and the disadvantages and barriers to accessing healthcare at the population, but in response to my hon. Friend the best of times, quite apart from any pre-existing mental Member for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith), the Secretary or physical health conditions that they have. What steps of State was somewhat dismissive of an important is his Department taking to ensure that we reach all National Audit Office report that raised serious concerns vulnerable people, whether they are homeless or not? about the letting of contracts in Government—contracts Matt Hancock: That is an incredibly important being published late; missing paperwork; the establishment consideration, both on the grounds of social justice and of a high-priority lane, with one in 10 of those applying because all of us can pass on the disease to others, so it via that route awarded contracts; and an overall lack of is right, fair and practical that we must ensure that transparency.As the NAO says, the lack of documentation everybody has access to the vaccine. The community of key decisions, including roll-out will be the primary means by which we can “why particular suppliers were chosen”, reach some of the most vulnerable, including the homeless, is important. It is taxpayers’ money that is being spent. whom the right hon. Gentleman mentions. That will be In relation to the vaccine roll-out, are private companies an important consideration in the roll-out. 725 Covid-19 Vaccine Roll-out8 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19 Vaccine Roll-out 726

Peter Gibson (Darlington) (Con): Will my right hon. Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): Having been Friend outline how his Department is working with under a variety of restrictions since August, and being local authorities, such as Darlington Borough Council, now in tier 3, my Colne Valley constituents are incredibly which is keen to move out of tier 3, to inform our welcoming of the roll-out of the vaccine. We are looking constituents about how, when and where they can access forward to reopening hospitality businesses and starting the vaccine? to get back to normal in the new year. The chief medical officer for Leeds Teaching Hospitals has confirmed that Matt Hancock: I am delighted that the James Cook his team are ready for the roll-out of the vaccine across University Hospital in Teesside is one of the first and is West Yorkshire as soon as it arrives, so can the Secretary vaccinating today. There is a lot of work to be done to of State please confirm that this week we will start to make sure that we roll out the vaccine across Teesside, see the roll-out of the vaccine across West Yorkshire? but in the meantime I pay tribute to everybody in the Tees Valley, including in Darlington, who has followed Matt Hancock: Today we are seeing the very start of the rules. The numbers are coming down quite sharply, that roll-out, and I absolutely hope that that will expand but we have to keep at it, because until this vaccine is across West Yorkshire over this week. rolled out to protect the most vulnerable, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper) David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP): I, too, pay put it—until that day—we have to make sure that we tribute to everybody in the NHS who will be administering keep the virus suppressed until the vaccine can make the vaccine. One of the concerns I had at the beginning us safe. of lockdown was that many of my asylum-seeking constituents who have no recourse to public funds were Mike Amesbury (Weaver Vale) (Lab): Today is a great very much left behind in the original lockdown. What day for Britain and the world, and I thank all those work will the Government and the Red Cross in the involved on a global level to ensure that we have light at United Kingdom be doing to liaise with the Home the end of the tunnel, and hope and optimism. People Office to ensure that no one is left behind? After all, in Cheshire West and Chester and Halton who have covid does not adhere to people’s nationality. loved ones in care homes are desperate to visit them. When can those who are resident, the carers and the Matt Hancock: We have a programme under way to family members expect to get the vaccine? ensure that those without an NHS number can get vaccinated; the NHS number is the basis of the calling Matt Hancock: I understand how important this is. system to invite people to be vaccinated, but of course The roll-out of testing to allow for visiting by Christmas not everybody has an NHS number, and we must ensure is under way.In terms of the vaccine, care workers, because that those without one get called forward too. they can travel, are already—today—being vaccinated, and I hope that we can start the roll-out of vaccines to Mr Simon Clarke (Middlesbrough South and East those who live in care homes, where the vaccine needs to Cleveland) (Con): I pay tribute to everyone involved in be taken to them, before Christmas. administering the vaccine from The James Cook University Hospital in Middlesbrough today. Looking ahead to the next stage of the roll-out, I have been contacted by a Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con) [V]: I welcome the GP surgery in Berwick Hills in my constituency that is fact that hospitals in Derbyshire are in the first wave of concerned about the resource implications of delivering the vaccine roll-out as well. Will my right hon. Friend the vaccine, since it is severely under strength and serves assure those who are living at and not able to leave one of the most deprived communities in England. Will home that the roll-out plan will include home visits for my right hon. Friend agree to look at their case and those who really need them? discuss what extra support might be made available to surgeries that find themselves in that position? Matt Hancock: Yes. That is the hardest part of the vaccine roll-out to deliver by its nature, because of the Matt Hancock: The way we have organised the primary minus 70°C requirements of the vaccine, but it is absolutely care roll-out is through networks of GP practices—primary a part of the plan. care networks, as they are called—so that if one GP practice is under particular pressure, for instance because Kate Osborne (Jarrow) (Lab): We already know that it may be carrying vacancies, the effort can be put together poorer areas have fewer GPs, so it is crucial that they over a wider network of GP practices. The funding receive extra resources to ensure that they are not left support for GPs to deliver this vaccine, as with the flu behind in the roll-out of the vaccine,on which I congratulate vaccine, is negotiated and agreed with the British Medical everyone involved. Will the Secretary of State assure me Association and is part of the operational roll-out of that the vaccine will be fairly distributed across the UK the vaccine in my hon. Friend’sconstituency and elsewhere and that working-class communities such as mine in the across the country. north-east will not be put at the back of the queue again, as they have been so many other times during this Naz Shah (Bradford West) (Lab): First, may I add my pandemic? thanks to everybody who has put in the effort to ensure that we get the vaccine? That is lovely news, but Matt Hancock: I can absolutely assure the hon. Lady unfortunately once again this Government are failing to that the fundamental principle of the roll-out is that it plan. My clinical commissioning group was given 24 hours must be done according to clinical need and fairly right to get together the GP practices to roll out the vaccines, across every part of the UK, and that is what we are and the criterion was 1,500 over-80s. The fact that places delivering to. such as Bradford West and inner cities have nine years’ 727 Covid-19 Vaccine Roll-out8 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19 Vaccine Roll-out 728

[Naz Shah] reiterating his answer. Does he agree with me that we must keep adhering to social distancing, and face, space less life expectancy and 16 years’ more ill-health means and hands, and that never more so than now is that a that the three centres that have been set up are moral imperative, so we can all get back together sooner in affluent areas. Not a single one is in inner-city as a non-socially distanced community, with covid-19 Bradford, yet the Government’s own review accepts confined to a memory only? that covid disproportionately affects black and minority ethnic communities. When will the Government stop Matt Hancock: Yes, my hon. Friend puts it very well discriminating against those who live in inner-city areas, for the people of Stourbridge and right across the west and prioritise them because of their health risks? midlands. We must keep our resolve and stick to the rules. She is right that we have a call to arms, in more Matt Hancock: The roll-out of the vaccine is being sense than one, because we are injecting hope into the managed by the NHS, and it is entirely unfair of the arms of people from today. If people are asked to come hon. Lady to describe the NHS in that way. forward by the NHS then, like her, I urge them to do so.

Simon Fell (Barrow and Furness) (Con): It was a Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck (South Shields) (Lab): The delight to turn on the radio this morning and hear some Secretary of State will not be surprised, bearing in mind good news for once, but my right hon. Friend is right to his track record in rolling out testing and tracing, that describe the roll-out of this vaccine as a Herculean task. the hope offered today comes with some serious concerns In the light of that, what measures is he putting in place about the delivery and administration of the vaccine. to accelerate the development of capacity to make more He has said repeatedly this morning that there are five vaccine, and also covid therapeutic antibodies? contingency plans for delivery in the event of failed Brexit talks. What are they? Matt Hancock: Yes, today has been a celebration of progress we have been able to make, but there is a huge Matt Hancock: As I said, we have those five contingency amount more to do, not just in the roll-out but in plans. The hon. Lady will understand that ensuring we making sure we have the future vaccines that may be have high security around those plans is also very necessary, and the capacity in this country to manufacture important. I want to put on the record my thanks to the and deliver the next generation of vaccine technologies. people of the north-east, who have done so well over The advance in vaccine technology over the past 11 months the past few weeks in bringing the number of cases globally has been extraordinary and it is critical that we under control, in part thanks to the huge injection of in the UK have that future capability. That is something testing we have been able to put in because we have built the Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social up testing capacity.I look forward to the day, Mr Speaker, Care, my hon. Friend the Member for Stratford-on-Avon when she and I can work together in the public interest, (Nadhim Zahawi), the Minister with responsibility for as we do everything we can to keep people in the vaccine roll-out, is concentrating on very clearly. north-east safe. Mr Speaker: Do you know, I don’t think you’re going Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): Thank goodness to get an answer. for science, thank goodness for international co-operation and thank goodness for our NHS. As a Member of Elliot Colburn (Carshalton and Wallington) (Con): Parliament representing the capital city of Wales, obviously May I join in paying tribute to the NHS, the scientists I am very interested in how the different parts of the and indeed my right hon. Friend for today’s amazing United Kingdom are going to get the vaccine. Can the news? Carshalton and Wallington residents were touched Secretary of State tell us a bit more about the work his to hear the words of George Dyer this morning, who, in Department is doing with the devolved Administrations next door Croydon University Hospital, was the first to make sure the vaccine is distributed quickly and Londoner to be vaccinated. He said that he was looking fairly to all four nations of our UK? forward to going to the shops at Christmas and seeing his family once again. Can my right hon. Friend tell me Matt Hancock: Yes, this is a UK project that is being a bit more about how the vaccine roll-out will roll over done through the NHS in the four nations. The Welsh into next door Carshalton and Wallington, so that Government are playing their part. I spoke to Vaughan people can share in George’s joy? Gething, my Welsh opposite number, last night to ensure the roll-out was co-ordinated and the final details put in Matt Hancock: Some of the stories we have heard place. There are seven hospitals in Wales that are injecting this morning have been really heart-warming, of people the vaccine today. I want to thank everybody across being able to have the confidence to do the things that Wales for their forbearance. This has been a tough time in normal life we take for granted. I heard the story that in Wales. There are still sacrifices to be made while we my hon. Friend refers to and it was truly charming. I keep the virus under control until the vaccine can get look forward to seeing the roll-out in Carshalton and rolled out through enough of the vulnerable population Wallington, and then I look forward to building a new and we can return life more to normal. hospital in Sutton for his constituents. Suzanne Webb (Stourbridge) (Con): With the vaccine Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op): Huge now being rolled out, I was thrilled to see this historic demands are being placed on our NHS staff and they moment—in the world, no less—being administered in are being asked to step up yet again today, so we thank the west midlands. I urge my constituents of Stourbridge, them for all their efforts. Let me ask about one thing the when the call to arms comes, to please do take up the Secretary of State could help with: instead of every vaccine vaccine. This question has been asked already, but I do being individually prescribed, he could issue a patient not think there is any harm in my right hon. Friend group directive. Is that in his plan? Will he be doing it? 729 Covid-19 Vaccine Roll-out8 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19 Vaccine Roll-out 730

Matt Hancock: We are working on doing that as soon Tonia Antoniazzi (Gower) (Lab): The roll-out of the as it can safely be achieved. covid-19 vaccine today is welcome news, especially for the exciting sporting calendar for 2021, with events such Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con): I join as the Olympics and Paralympics in Japan, the Euros, colleagues in thanking the Secretary of State and his the Lions tour to South Africa and the women’s rugby team for their incredible hard work, which has brought world cup in New Zealand, which I must not forget. us to this place. Today is indeed a really good, positive Concerns have been raised with me about whether day for the whole United Kingdom. Although the past sporting competitions will be subject to compulsory nine months of pandemic may at times have shone a vaccination, so what assessment has the Secretary of spotlight on some of the division and tension inherent State made of that—not only for elite sport, but for all in our system of devolved government, does he agree competitive sport in 2021? that what today fundamentally demonstrates is that when we work together—when we collaborate as a Matt Hancock: We have not made such an assessment; strong family of nations—what we can achieve as a we are still in the early days. United Kingdom is truly remarkable? Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con): I think I have sat Matt Hancock: Yes, I could not put it better than my through every single urgent question and statement that right hon. Friend, who speaks with such power on this the Secretary of State has done, but the fact that it says subject. I truly believe that it is only because we, as a “Covid-19 Vaccine Roll-out” on the annunciator screen United Kingdom, went in so early to be buying and is still hard to believe. The Secretary of State said earlier developing these vaccines, using all the strength of our that we had got there because of international science. United Kingdom, that we have been able to get to this We will deliver global health security only through an point before any other country in the world. international effort—put another way, no one is safe until everyone is safe—so I wonder whether he can update us on how we will work with Gavi, the Vaccine Ben Lake (Ceredigion) (PC): Like many others, I Alliance to help the poorest countries in the world, and welcome today’sdevelopments and agree with the Secretary of course, those nearest to us who are not the poorest of State that we can look forward to the new year, countries, but with which we have a lot of inbound and when, we hope, further vaccines will come online. He outbound travel? How can we get them on the same will be aware that there has been some discussion of the page as us quickly? relative effectiveness of different vaccines, so will that influence the Government’s distribution strategy in any Matt Hancock: The UK has put more money into the way? Specifically, will certain vaccines be prioritised for international search for a vaccine, and the distribution certain groups? of a vaccine to the countries that otherwise would not be able to afford it, than any other state of any size, and Matt Hancock: The Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine,should we should be very proud of that. The way that we have it be approved, does have easier logistical and distributional managed the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine is to ensure qualities—it does not have to be stored at minus 70°—so that it is available on a not-for-profit basis, essentially, that helps. Of course, the JCVI will consider the clinical worldwide. We have taken this approach because, to put properties of any vaccine that comes forward when it exactly as my hon. Friend did, nobody is safe until deciding who it can be distributed to, so that is taken everybody is safe. This is a global pandemic and we into account. Finally, the hon. Gentleman is right to say need to address it globally. That is the only fundamental that this has been an international as well as a UK way to solve this for the long term. In the short term, success. I had a text exchange with my German opposite what we all need to do is keep following the rules. number this morning to thank, through him, the German scientists who have done so much to make this possible. Mary Kelly Foy (City of Durham) (Lab): The vaccine is indeed welcome news, but until it is fully rolled out, Dr Dan Poulter (Central Suffolk and North Ipswich) the north-east will continue to be harmed by the lack of (Con) [V]: I draw the House’s attention to my declaration economic support that accompanies tier 3 restrictions. in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests, as a The Health Secretary stated that the restrictions were practising NHS psychiatrist who has been working on based on the frontline throughout this pandemic. The Secretary “cases among the over-60s; the rate at which cases are rising or of State will be aware that mental health patients are falling; the positivity rate; and the pressures on the local NHS.”— often an afterthought of policymakers, although I am [Official Report, 26 November 2020; Vol. 684, c. 1000.] sure that is not the case for him, and that many of them Can he therefore tell me precisely what level these have multiple medical comorbidities, which make them figures will have to be at for the north-east to be moved more vulnerable to covid-19. Will he reassure me that into tier 2? patients in mental health services, particularly in-patients, and NHS staff who work in in-patient mental health Matt Hancock: We consider all those figures, and services will be prioritised for this vaccine and will not because we consider them alongside special factors such be an afterthought? as whether there is an outbreak, we do not put a specific figure on that, as the hon. Lady well knows. But what Matt Hancock: Absolutely. NHS staff are in the we have done is put in more economic support than second priority cohort set out by the JCVI, and that almost any other country in the world, as the International includes all patient-facing staff in the NHS and social Monetary Fund has recognised. We have tried as best care. Patients who are clinically vulnerable to covid we possibly can to support people through what has absolutely have their rightful place in the prioritisation, been an incredibly difficult year. We have not been able according to clinical need. to save every job, but with the economic measures of 731 Covid-19 Vaccine Roll-out8 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19 Vaccine Roll-out 732

[Matt Hancock] it is right that NHS and social care staff will be among the first to receive the vaccine, what consideration has support for business and the furlough scheme in place, the Department of Health given to prioritising access we have put in very significant support. But the best for other groups of key workers, including school support support that people in the north-east, and elsewhere in staff and workers in transport and essential retail, not the country, can have until this vaccine is rolled out is to only in recognition of the enormous sacrifices that they continue to follow the restrictions that are necessary have made for our nation during the pandemic, but to and then, if they get the call from the NHS, take that minimise disruption as we return to normality? vaccine. Matt Hancock: We looked at that very closely, as did Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): A charming lady of the JCVI, and because of the risk of dying of covid, it is 92 has contacted me. She lives on her own, and she absolutely right that age takes priority. The prioritisation cannot get out of the house. I have assured her that the of health and social care staff is also high because they Secretary of State for Health will make especial efforts look after those who are most at risk of dying. Once we to ensure that she is looked after and gets her vaccination are through those clinical priorities, then of course, we as soon as possible. Is that correct? will be looking to prioritise other workers, including Matt Hancock: Yes, if she can travel. When the NHS those the hon. Lady mentions. calls, my advice to my hon. Friend’s constituent is to get that card with that invitation and to phone up my hon. Dr Neil Hudson (Penrith and The Border) (Con) [V]:I Friend, and he will give her a lift. congratulate and thank my right hon. Friend, his Department, the NHS, the scientists, the clinicians and Holly Lynch (Halifax) (Lab): This is incredibly welcome everyone involved in the development and roll-out of news today. Looking ahead to Christmas, I have been this covid vaccine technology. Will he provide assurance approached by a number of emergency service workers that logistics are in place to ensure that those in remote in the NHS, policing and other sectors who will miss rural areas, such as those in Cumbria, will be able to out on the opportunity to see loved ones because of the access the vaccination programme without any delay, window for household mixing—they will still be working given that they are some distance from major hospitals? on the frontline in the fight against the coronavirus crisis during that period. I appreciate that this is a Matt Hancock: Yes, my hon. Friend rightly raises an difficult one to crack, but has the Secretary of State important point. Vaccination is happening in Cumbria given any consideration to flexibility to ensure that today, which I am really pleased about. Cumbria is, of those who really deserve a Christmas with their loved course, one of the most rural parts of the UK, so when ones can still get it? we get to the primary care and the community roll-out, we will make sure that we can get the delivery as close to Matt Hancock: I have a huge amount of sympathy communities as possible. That is much harder with the with what the hon. Lady says, and we have looked into Pfizer vaccine because of the minus 70° requirements. this. We are not proposing to extend the Christmas The AstraZeneca vaccine is much easier from that point bubbles, but we hope that NHS trusts and employers of view, but of course, we do not have that clinically across the NHS can look compassionately at exactly signed off yet. this situation for all those brilliant colleagues who are working so hard and have had such a tough year. Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): This morning, at Southmead hospital, 98-year-old Jack Vokes became Mr William Wragg (Hazel Grove) (Con): I always the first person in Bristol to be vaccinated, which is enjoy my exchanges with my right hon. Friend, and this obviously great news, and I join my colleagues in time I mean that when I say it, because this is incredibly congratulating NHS staff on all their work at this time. welcome news, particularly given Stepping Hill Hospital’s May I press the Secretary of State on the point about role in the administration of the vaccine. I will certainly transport workers, particularly taxi drivers, who we encourage all my constituents, when they receive the know are vulnerable not just because of their contact invitation, to have the vaccine, take it and dispel some with the public, but because they are overwhelmingly of the more eccentric views that are circulating on the drawn from the black, Asian and minority ethnic internet. Can my right hon. Friend tell me specifically communities, which puts them more at risk? Under the when those with particular vulnerabilities, such as cancer headings of prioritising occupations and minimising patients, can expect the call for vaccination? the inequalities in the second tranche, are they likely to Matt Hancock: The plan is, according to clinical be considered for vaccination early? priority, to vaccinate those in care homes and their carers; NHS and social care staff, and the over-80s; then Matt Hancock: We absolutely will consider that factor the over-75s; and then, at that point, we will turn to when we come to the groups after the clinical prioritised ensuring that all those who are on the clinically extremely groups. I join the hon. Lady in thanking Jack and all those vulnerable list get vaccinated along with the over-70-year- who have put themselves forward today to be vaccinated, olds. That is the assessment of the JCVI, which looked including sometimes in the public eye, as part of this into the relative risk that people face and found that age programme to help build confidence in vaccination is the No. 1 risk factor. overall and, of course, to help protect themselves and their loved ones. Charlotte Nichols (Warrington North) (Lab): I am sure the Secretary of State was far from the only one to Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) be emotional today watching the first vaccinations taking (Con) [V]: I congratulate my right hon. Friend and his place. This is truly a proud day for our country.Although whole team on their Herculean effort to get us to the 733 Covid-19 Vaccine Roll-out8 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19 Vaccine Roll-out 734 point where, today, Basildon University Hospital has Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con): It is started delivering the vaccine. Now, as we scale up the obviously excellent news that the vaccine has been roll-out programme, will he join me in reassuring people rolled out today.I was delighted to see that my constituent, that, despite the speed of development, not a single Kenneth Lamb from New Romney, was the first patient stage was missed and that the Medicines and Healthcare to receive the vaccine at the William Harvey Hospital in products Regulatory Agency has done its usual due Ashford. Does the Secretary of State agree that it is diligence in approving this vaccine? really important that people take the vaccine when they are offered it, and that we do all we can to combat Matt Hancock: That is right. The MHRA has gone harmful disinformation about it? The next time that he through the same safety processes as normal, but it has speaks to Mark Zuckerberg, will he remind him that we done them in parallel at the same time, rather than in a expect his companies to act against harmful anti-vaccine series, one after another. It is that sort of smart and disinformation? thoughtful approach, alongside the work of the Vaccine Taskforce in buying the vaccine in the first place, that Matt Hancock: Yes, yes and yes. has allowed us to get to this point of having confidence in the safety and efficacy of this vaccine before anybody else in the world. Everybody in Basildon who gets the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health call can have confidence that they should come forward, and Social Care (Nadhim Zahawi): Thrice yes. get the jab, protect themselves, protect those around them and, therefore, help us all get through this terrible Matt Hancock: Thrice yes, indeed; I thank my hon. thing. Friend, who is Stratford’s representative in this place. My hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD): I echo the Hythe (Damian Collins) is right about disinformation. I sentiment that it is such a pleasure to be able to stand have been doing a lot of work with Nick Clegg, who is here today and talk about covid-19 with a smile on our Mark Zuckerberg’s representative on earth. Facebook faces, and to look forward to 2021 after such a horrific and Instagram have taken significant strides forward in year. That is particularly true for people who are vulnerable terms of removing anti-vax content, and I am very and have been shielding, and they will now need reassurance grateful to them for the work that they have done. I have that the vaccine will get to them. Does the Secretary of no doubt that there is more work that we can all do State agree that, as we go into next year, we should take together, but they have played their part. with us and bear in mind the fact that we have done this across the UK, as a United Kingdom? Mr Speaker: In order to allow the safe exit of hon. Members participating in this item of business and the Matt Hancock: There is more in common than divides safe arrival of those participating in the next, I am us, and we are stronger as a country when we all work suspending the House for three minutes. together; those two things I have long believed. I have always thought that a vaccine would come through. Lots of people told me that it was not certain and that it could not happen, but I have always driven it forward 1.46 pm for the whole UK, because it is the clear route out. Sitting suspended. 735 8 DECEMBER 2020 Gambling and Lotteries 736

Gambling and Lotteries on the causes and impact of problem gambling, and we will consider whether the Gambling Commission is Mr Speaker: Before I call the Minister to make a keeping pace with the licensed sector and can effectively statement, I am tempted to say that it is pleasing that he deal with unlicensed operators. We will also ensure that has found time in his busy schedule of media appointments we have a fair playing field for online and offline gambling. to update the House. It really is for the benefit of the Many of those areas were highlighted in a thought- Minister himself, as well as Members, for the House to provoking report by the House of Lords Select Committee. be informed first of policy changes. I hope that he and That report and others have helped to inform our those within the Department who feel that this House thinking and our desire to ensure that the review is wide should not hear it first will bear that in mind in the in scope, and we are publishing our response to the future. I have the greatest respect for the Minister, and I Lords report alongside the review. I also know that am sure he would agree that this is not the way that we Members across the House have seen evidence from want it to happen. their constituents about the harm that gambling can do to individuals and their families. We want to hear from 1.50 pm the people whose lives have been affected by gambling, as well as from academics and the gambling industry, so The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Digital, that we have the evidence to deliver real and lasting Culture, Media and Sport (Nigel Huddleston): Mr Speaker, change. We are therefore starting the review with a call I hope you will accept my apologies for any offence for evidence, which will run for 16 weeks and is now caused by some of the information already being out available on the gov.uk website. there. I can assure you that the full details and the call for evidence document are only just now being released While this review is an opportunity to consider changes and made available on the gov.uk website, precisely to for the future, we are also taking action now to protect coincide with this statement, but I understand and people from gambling harm. The Gambling Commission accept what you said. will continue to build on recent progress to strengthen protections as the industry regulator. Our ban on gambling The Gambling Act has been the basis of virtually all with credit cards came into force in April, and new gambling regulation in the UK since 2005, but a huge tighter rules on VIP schemes were implemented at the amount has changed since then. The internet and the end of October. Further work is also in progress on the prevalence of smartphones have transformed the way design of online slot games, as well as on how operators we work, play, shop and gamble. We can now gamble identify and intervene to protect customers who may be anywhere at any time. It is time to take stock of the at risk, including through affordability checks. We have significant changes of the last 15 years and to pull our also just closed a call for evidence on loot boxes, and the legal and regulatory framework into the digital age, so Department of Health and Social Care will keep working today,we are launching the first part of our comprehensive to improve and expand treatment for problem gambling. review of the Gambling Act. It will be a wide-ranging and evidence-led look at the industry, and it will consider A key priority is ensuring that we have the right the many issues that have been raised by parliamentarians protections for children and young people and, again, and many other stakeholders. We want to listen, gather that cannot wait. Tothat end, we are also today publishing the evidence and think deeply about what we need for a response to the consultation on the minimum age to the next decade and beyond. play national lottery games. Since its launch in 1994, the Nearly half the adult population gambles each month national lottery has been a tremendous success, raising and, for the majority of people, gambling is a fun and more than £42 billion for good causes. Since 1994, its carefree leisure activity. It is also a sector that supports games portfolio has evolved significantly,while consumers 100,000 jobs and pays nearly £3 billion a year in taxes. have shifted towards online play and instant win games However, we know that, in some cases, gambling can such as scratchcards. While evidence shows that most cause significant damage to people’s lives, including 16 and 17-year-olds do not experience gambling-related mental health problems, relationship breakdown, debt harm from playing the national lottery, some recent and, in extreme cases, suicide. We must ensure that our studies point to a possible correlation between national regulatory and legislative framework delivers on a core lottery play at 16 and 17 and problem gambling in later aim of the 2005 Act: the protection of children and life.Moreover,few other countries allow 16 and 17-year-olds vulnerable people in a fair, open and crime-free gambling to purchase their national lottery products. economy. Protecting young people from the risk of gambling- This review will seek to strike a careful balance related harm is of paramount importance. We have between giving individuals the freedom to choose how therefore decided to increase the minimum age of the they spend their own money, while protecting vulnerable sale of all national lottery games to the age of 18. We people and their families from gambling-related harm. are keen to make this change at pace while being acutely Wewill look at whether we should introduce new protections aware of the need to give retailers and the operator time on online products and consumer accounts, including to ensure a smooth transition. The legislative change stake and prize limits, and how we can ensure that will therefore come into force in October 2021, but we children and young people are protected. We will also have asked that, where it can be done sooner, it is—for consider gambling advertising, including sports sponsorship, example, online. So under current plans, national lottery while taking into account the extremely difficult financial sales to 16 and 17-year-olds will stop online in April 2021. situation that many sports organisations and broadcasters The review we are starting today will be an opportunity find themselves in as a result of covid. We will look at to look at the wider rules on children and gambling, redress arrangements for consumers where, for example, and to make sure they are suitably protected across all an operator has failed to step in to help a problem forms of gambling. I know many colleagues will welcome gambler. We will consider barriers to effective research the launch of this review today and will be pleased to 737 Gambling and Lotteries8 DECEMBER 2020 Gambling and Lotteries 738 see us living up to our commitments in the 2019 manifesto. to protect people from harm seriously and that the We intend to be broad, thorough and evidence led, so review will attempt to quantify that harm so that we can that we can ensure our gambling laws are fit for purpose target the right measures effectively to reduce it over in the 2020s and beyond. I commend this statement to time? the House. Thirdly, the legislation must be evidence-based. I do not think anyone in this House is any longer a sceptic of 1.57 pm experts, but just to make sure, could the Minister confirm that public health experts will be able to contribute fully Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): I thank the and transparently,so that people will be able to understand Minister for early sight of his statement. On behalf of the evidence that the Government rest on? the Opposition, I welcome the main measures that the Government have announced today, and I certainly Fourthly, all towns across the country should be able welcome the beginning of this process of review and reform. to enjoy the benefit of having a sports club at the heart Many Members across the House and in the other place of their community. Many rugby league clubs, football have worked very hard indeed to get us to this place. I clubs and other sports have long-standing relationships will not mention individuals specifically, not least because with gambling companies. Will the Minister take those I am sure they will speak for themselves shortly, but we relationships into consideration? Weare expecting another owe them a debt for bringing this issue to the fore. I review—a fan-led review of football—and I do not thank all of them, because when people work across the think it makes a lot of sense to commence the gambling House and across party political barriers in pursuit of review without that football review alongside it. Where the public interest, it is Parliament at its best. the issues interconnect, we can handle them both together. Will the Minister bring forward the fan-led review of This is only the beginning of the process to get the football to start without further delay? reforms that we need on gambling, so it is disappointing that the Government have taken more than a year to Finally, on consumer protection, companies operating launch this review, during which time we know there are for financial gain should not be able to exploit anybody, still people who may be suffering. Gambling addiction particularly the young and vulnerable, so will he make is highly serious, and we know that we have not got the sure that consumers have better rights in this area? Will right support in place. So the delay has a cost, which is people have access to their own data—I am thinking of why we need to move forward together and swiftly now. where people are targeted online with adverts and so What we need is fit-for-purpose regulation which can on? Will the review also look at the unlicensed operators, keep up with the changing nature of gambling online, who are one of the most worrying aspects in this area? both on the smartphones that we all carry and in the We welcome the review. We want to see it happen in a environment around us all the time. We believe that the way that is collaborative across both sides of the House law in this area should be approached from a public and among all stakeholders in the country, because that health perspective to protect the vulnerable and particularly is the best way to make sure that it is a success. Many children and young people—I think the Minister would people in this country enjoy gambling. Everybody has accept that—but to allow others who choose to do so to the right to spend their own money enjoying themselves. gamble safely.The Minister mentioned that UK gambling However, where a harm is clear, the Government have a legislation is some 15 years old and it is hard to quantify duty and responsibility to tackle it. the technological change that we have all experienced during that time. If somebody had told me in 2005 precisely Nigel Huddleston: I thank the hon. Lady for the tone what the phone in my pocket would have the capacity to of her response and for welcoming the review. She is do by this point, even I would have been shocked. We absolutely right that the measures in the review and the need to bring the legislation up to date. There is not a scope of the review have been supported by hon. Members moment to lose. on both sides of this Chamber and many individuals Millions of people enjoy gambling in a safe way, but, have campaigned on these issues for a long period of as I have said, given the speed of change, vulnerable time. people should be protected. Age verification must be On timing, it is important to recognise that we do not taken seriously. wait for the periodic reviews. We are not waiting for The pace of technological change has wider ramifications. necessary future legislation. We have acted and will Apps, games and online advertising within apps have continue to act as and when necessary. Just this year, for shown the dangers when we are not able to future-proof example, we banned the use of gambling with credit legislation. Will the Minister confirm that the review cards. We have made further restrictions on VIP schemes. will address not just problems that we know of now, but There is the mandatory participation in GamStop, for that we will use the opportunity to try to anticipate example, and the announcement today about the changes future changes? That will not always be possible, but we with national lottery is testament to the fact that the should at least attempt to do so. Government are willing and able to take action. There In the review, we would like the Government to adopt was also action just last year on fixed-odds betting the following approach, particularly in considering the terminals. legislation that we need. We know from the pandemic In terms of future-proofing, no Government can that public health must come first, and that is my first guarantee to future proof, but certainly the intent is for question to the Minister. Will he confirm that we will be the scope to be broad and wide, recognising, for example, taking a public health approach in the review? changes in technology and what that could mean for Secondly, of course people are free to choose what using information intelligently to identify potential problem they wish to do in a free country, but will the Minister gamblers, as well as looking at the scope of the Gambling confirm that the Government take their responsibility Commission itself. 739 Gambling and Lotteries8 DECEMBER 2020 Gambling and Lotteries 740

[Nigel Huddleston] centre in the review, and must not be undermined by the eye-watering financial demands of premier-league football In terms of evidence, we are looking for evidence teams. from all sources, including all those that the hon. Lady On the national lottery, there is no excuse for delaying suggested—from health and from academics. Wewelcome the enforcement of the increased age limitation offline the participation of anybody willing and able to participate for 10 months. May I ask that the timescale is revisited in this review with evidence. or at least justified? I did not read anything in the The hon. Lady made an important point on sport. statement about the voluntary levy. We need a statutory As sports Minister—we both cover sport—I know the levy that funds research, education and support. That challenges that the sporting sector faces, so we need to money should be paid to the UK and devolved Parliaments make sure that any changes are proportionate. Indeed, before being channelled to the appropriate service providers. as she knows, we intend formally to kick off the football Research into gambling harm must not be funded by governance review as soon as possible. Informally, it has voluntary contributions from the industry that causes already begun. Other areas such as redress and the the harm. black market will absolutely form part of the review. Finally,many people, including members of the all-party parliamentary group on gambling-related harm, will Julian Knight (Solihull) (Con): No longer is gambling scrutinise the outcome of the review. May I offer a a case of just nipping down the bookies. We now live in friendly warning to the Minister? We will not be fobbed a world dominated online with sophisticated algorithms off with a partial review,and we will not accept second-best. and increasing artificial intelligence. Will the Minister assure the House and me that the review will place at its centre the oversight of algorithms in push marketing Nigel Huddleston: I can confirm that the experience and fairness in bet exchanges, and that that will dovetail of those with lived experience will form part of the with robust age verification on social media platforms? review. In fact, the Secretary of State and I have met In addition, when will we see the legislation to curb the many victims and their families, and we will continue to menace of loot boxes? As a side point, on the banning do so. On sport, if there is evidence of harm from of national lottery sales online, why do we have to wait sponsorship and advertising, we will act. On the other until April next year? Surely, that is something that considerations that the hon. Gentleman mentioned, I could be actioned relatively quickly. can assure him that if people have evidence, for example, that a levy is an alternative model, we would welcome Nigel Huddleston: I thank the Chair of the Select those submissions in the review. I welcome the scrutiny Committee on Digital, Culture, Media and Sport for, that he and others will give to the review as it progresses. as always, valuable comments. On using technology intelligently, I absolutely agree with him—it is vital that Sir Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Woodford we do so to identify problem gambling and issues of Green) (Con): I thank my hon. Friend for his statement, affordability,and that that forms part of the future-proofing which marks the beginning of a real sea change in our of the sector. attitude towards the gambling abuses that have taken The loot-box issue is being addressed. We have issued place. On that point, I pay tribute to the hon. Member a call for evidence, which concluded on 22 November, for Swansea East (Carolyn Harris), whose chairing of and we will introduce recommendations shortly. On the the all-party parliamentary group on gambling related lottery changes, as I say, we have had conversations with harm has been phenomenal, and to the vice chair, the key stakeholders. We want to move as soon as possible. hon. Member for Inverclyde (Ronnie Cowan). We have The target date of 1 October is the latest date for worked very hard together to try to drive this moment. I changes. We want to bring the online changes forward have to say to my hon. Friend the Minister that we want as soon as possible, but there are notifications, technology all the evidence we have taken over the last couple of changes and logistical considerations, as well as training years to be part of the inquiry. I would also like the considerations. It is not the kind of thing that can occur all-party parliamentary group to appear in front of it. overnight, but we have had productive conversations May I press my hon. Friend on one particular point? with the operators to make sure that we can implement He knows about the abuse of VIP schemes and about the measures as soon as possible. the behaviour of the gambling companies, which have been appalling in the way they have used people. Is it Ronnie Cowan (Inverclyde) (SNP) [V]: I thank the not now time, instead of looking only at the powers of Minister for prior sight of the statement. I welcome the the Gambling Commission, to get rid of the Gambling overall messages in it, as they touch on many of the issues Commission altogether and institute a body as powerful that have blighted the industry and caused great harm as, say, Ofcom or all the other bodies that monitor and to many people for far too long. There is a great deal to regulate these industries? Now is the time to make bold discuss, and I shall keep a beady eye on the process and moves, to make sure we get proper control and that the progress of the review. abuses and the addiction end. In the time allotted to me, may I thank the Minister for making it clear that the evidence-led inquiry will Nigel Huddleston: I thank my right hon. Friend for include those who have been harmed and the families of all his work in this important area, and the people he those who have lost someone to suicide as a result of mentioned who have also campaigned for such a long gambling addiction? Lived experience is crucial to inform time. We know that there have been problems with VIP the review. However, I am concerned that the Minister schemes. We have acted on them already, but that does has caveated his concerns about advertising with the not mean that further action is not necessary. I am financial difficulties faced by sports organisations and confident that the evidence-led review may reveal further broadcasters. The reduction of harm must be front and options and avenues. I welcome his input into all areas 741 Gambling and Lotteries8 DECEMBER 2020 Gambling and Lotteries 742 under consideration. As I said, the Gambling Commission’s black market gambling companies to promote on their scope and resources are part of that review. I welcome websites, and they are advertising to the under-18s. his further comments. What does he think about that, and what is he going to do about it? Carolyn Harris (Swansea East) (Lab): The architects of the Gambling Act 2005 could never have anticipated Nigel Huddleston: The hon. Gentleman raises legitimate that by 2020 technology would allow phones, tablets concerns about the black market—the unlicensed industry, and computers to become 24/7 limitless gambling hubs. which does exist. This will form part of the review. Part For far too many,this has led to devastation, demoralisation of it will include the scope, responsibilities, powers and and, at worst, death. Can the Government assure the resources of the Gambling Commission and regulatory House that the voices of bereaved families, those with bodies to deal with the black market. It is a very lived experience, campaign groups and colleagues and important issue. friends from right across the House will be given the same consideration when feeding into this review as the Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley) (Con) [V]: As with well-resourced, confrontational and relentless gambling all Government reviews, sectors and people fear that lobby, whose sole motivation is profit, not people? Government do not take into account their concerns and often adopt a “do to” rather than a “do with” Nigel Huddleston: I thank the hon. Lady for her attitude. What discussions has my hon. Friend had with ongoing campaign in this important area. We have had sporting bodies, particularly in horse-racing and football, many conversations on this, and I know her passion for on the financial implications that the review could have change. I can confirm that those with lived experience for their members? and the families of those impacted will absolutely play a key role in the review. We welcome their evidence. As Nigel Huddleston: We have had very few discussions has already been suggested, some evidence has been so far about the specifics of this review because we are brought forward in various other reviews and reports that only announcing its scope and the call for evidence we have seen in the House, and we welcome re-submissions today. We certainly intend to have conversations about of some of that data. The role of those people is vital. the possible impact of some of the potential options on We all know, through experiences and interactions with the sports sector. I encourage all stakeholders, including our constituents, how devastating problem gambling all sports bodies, to contribute to the review in the call can be. I think the whole House recognises the need for for evidence that we are announcing. We will be happy further action. to have further discussions about this with my hon. Friend and others. Mr Richard Holden (North West Durham) (Con): I associate myself with the comments of my hon. Friends Gerald Jones (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney) (Lab): I from the all-party parliamentary group on gambling welcome this review, and there is clearly a need for related harm. I also thank the Minister for his statement. robust action. The Minister will be aware that there I know that he has done a lot of work in this area. It is have been claims from the online gambling industry good to hear that the review will be broad and wide. that regulation should be moderated or it risks driving However, can he clarify that, when he mentioned parity gamblers to the black market. Does the Minister agree between high street and online, he is not saying that with the Gambling Commission that there is absolutely high-street casino gambling will be the same as online no evidence for this? Does he also agree that if we want casinos? Quite frankly, there should be one place where to prevent the growth of the black market, regulation to the highest-stakes gambling can take place, and that is prevent harm is the solution, not the cause? not in people’s homes and bedrooms. I also urge my hon. Friend to reflect on the Public Nigel Huddleston: The hon. Gentleman expresses some Accounts Committee’s report around an ombudsman legitimate concerns. One of the great problems, of course, service. Some points that we raised were recommendations is that, by definition, it is almost impossible to assess from the Public Accounts Committee, particularly around the size, scope and scale of the black market, but where redress for people who have suffered real harm, and are evidence does exist we will welcome it as part of this really worth noting. I hope he will take note of those review. We do recognise the problem, and that is why we considerations. explicitly include the unlicensed market—the black market—in the review. We need more work and more Nigel Huddleston: As I said, the role and scope of the information, and we need to decide what action needs Gambling Commission and other areas will be under to be taken to tackle it. It is a very serious issue. consideration. The point about the land-based system versus the online world is that, as many have mentioned, Aaron Bell (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Con): I welcome the world has changed considerably, and we want to this review and the opportunity it presents to update ensure that there is an even playing field in gambling. our regulations in the gambling and gaming sector. I We need to make sure that all forms of gambling are as know from my time in the industry that some firms have safe as they possibly can be. The goal of this review is to gone above and beyond in developing tools to help to tackle harms as much as possible, but also to make sure prevent and identify problem gambling. I hope that this that the legitimate gambling industry is on a safe footing review will be an opportunity to formalise and spread for a sustainable future. best practice. As the Minister said, over 100,000 people are employed in the sector, including nearly 4,000 in Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): I welcome north Staffordshire, Newcastle-under-Lyme and Stoke- the statement, but the Minister will understand that the on-Trent at my former employer, Bet365. Can my hon. online harms Bill, when we get it, will have a crucial role Friend assure me, and them, that the review will look to to play in this area. Big tech firms are allowing unregulated strike a balance, acknowledging the enjoyment that 743 Gambling and Lotteries8 DECEMBER 2020 Gambling and Lotteries 744

[Aaron Bell] Nigel Huddleston: I thank the hon. Lady.I am well aware of her campaigning on this issue over a long period of millions of people from gambling in a responsible manner time, and I thank her for that input. There is a difference and how important it is that people are not driven to between lottery-based games and other forms of gambling. unlicensed operators where they would have neither There is evidence to suggest, for example, that the gambling basic consumer protection nor the regulatory supervision harm is lower in the lottery than in other forms of that we all want to see? gambling, and therefore there is a difference between the types. As I say, however, this move is an important Nigel Huddleston: My hon. Friend is right to point one today, and I appreciate that she welcomes it. out the dangers of the unlicensed market and to point out that gambling is a legitimate business in the UK, Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): paying £3 billion in taxes and employing about 100,000 Given that the recent Public Accounts Committee report people. However, the industry itself acknowledges that on gambling regulation declared that the Gambling harms can happen. It has played, and I expect it to Commission continue to play, an important role in identifying harms “do not know what impact they are having on problem gambling, and what we can do to minimise them. Its voice will be or what measures would demonstrate whether regulation is working”, heard in this review, but we all have a shared goal of will the Minister use the opportunity of the review to making sure that we do everything we can to minimise assess whether the Gambling Commission itself is fit gambling harms. for purpose, or needs to be replaced by a new body to provide the real leadership needed on the issue of gambling David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP): I understand regulation? that today there is perhaps a focus on some of the online gambling, but can I ask the Minister not to Nigel Huddleston: I thank my hon. Friend for his forget those communities, such as in Glasgow East, comments. I am aware of the comments made in the where digital exclusion is still a massive issue? In that Public Accounts Committee report. I appreciate the vein, when are we going to confront the fact that many work that it and, indeed, many others have done in of these working-class communities where lottery ticket providing input on this issue for a long period. As I have sales are higher do not actually see a lot of the funding said, I do not wish to pre-empt any of the conclusions follow through? In my experience, it tends to go to more of the review. This is a call for evidence at this stage, and middle class areas with professional fundraisers. therefore recommendations and suggestions for future regulation will be welcome. Nigel Huddleston: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his comments. Again, the review is very broad in scope for Chris Elmore (Ogmore) (Lab): The Minister will be exactly this purpose. Comments, information, data and aware of some the work I do on social media, and I am evidence can be brought in to raise all these issues, and chair of the all-party parliamentary group on social they will be looked at carefully. media. One of the key areas where we are seeing huge increases in people taking up and partaking of gambling Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): I welcome is through influencers. My hon. Friend the Member for this review and also the Minister’s determination that it Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne) asked a question should be evidence-based, consistent and balanced, but about the online harms Bill, so I would like to understand can I join my hon. Friend the Member for Calder Valley from the Minister what work he is doing now on tackling (Craig Whittaker) in reminding him of the enormous influencers who are able to target particularly children contribution that betting companies make to horse-racing? and young people and try to encourage them to gamble. It is to the tune of about £350 million a year, which is a That really does need to be addressed long before this very large amount to that sport, even in ordinary times. review is concluded. At the moment, like other sports, it is going through very difficult times, and without that contribution horse- Nigel Huddleston: The hon. Gentleman will be aware racing would not survive. that the Government are considering action on the broader issue of online harms and the role that social Nigel Huddleston: Indeed. I thank my hon. Friend for media companies play in that. That work will be undertaken his comments. Horse-racing is of course a vital industry alongside this review, as well, and we will certainly work in the UK. I can confirm that the levy on horse-racing is together. I will work with colleagues in the rest of the not actually due for review till 2021; it is not explicitly Department to make sure that we are very much aligned. part of this review. However, on the role that gambling has and the link with sport, we recognise that there are Scott Benton (Blackpool South) (Con) [V]: Some some challenges, but also many upsides, and we will 200,000 customers used an unlicensed gambling operator consider those as part of this review. last year, resulting in an estimated £1.4 billion in turnover. What discussions has my hon. Friend had with online Stephanie Peacock (Barnsley East) (Lab): Following platforms to tackle this black market in gambling? my question in April, I welcome today’s news that the Government will extend the ban on under-18s gambling Nigel Huddleston: Like several other Members, my to the national lottery, but the Minister will be aware hon. Friend raises the important issue of the black that the recent online ban on gambling with a credit market. As I have said, that will be considered as part of card does not apply to the lottery. If a betting shop in the review. We welcome evidence and suggestions from Barnsley rightly does not accept gambling on a credit all stakeholders, in helping to scope not only the size card, then why should it be allowed on the national and scale of the black market, but what further actions lottery? could be taken to tackle it. 745 Gambling and Lotteries8 DECEMBER 2020 Gambling and Lotteries 746

Liz Twist (Blaydon) (Lab): We know that too many Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con): I am people have a problematic relationship with gambling, pleased to hear the Minister say that loot boxes fall which has a really bad effect on their wellbeing and within his remit of work at the moment, because they mental health, even leading to suicidal thoughts and encourage people to spend more on in-game purchases feelings. I welcome the recognition of that in the Minister’s than they otherwise would do if this were turned into a statement. How will the review consider that issue in the game of chance where there were no published odds. next period? Will he also say something about social media targeted advertising by gambling companies? I am aware that social media companies are allowing online betting Nigel Huddleston: The hon. Lady will be aware that companies to target known problem gamblers with we work closely with the Department of Health and incentives to bet, which is completely unethical. It should Social Care, which is working on clinics particularly be outside the rules and it should be part of the review. relating to the treatment of gambling. Three are already up and running, and we have an ambition to open far more. The industry is contributing towards the financial Nigel Huddleston: My hon. Friend is very knowledgeable costs of some of this treatment, as well as to research about this area as well, and I thank him for his comments. and education overall; we have a commitment over the Let me be clear: the call for evidence relating to loot boxes next four years of £100 million. Of course, this review is separate from this review; it is a separate activity being will be an opportunity to assess whether that model is undertaken by the Department. I should also be clear appropriate or whether other alternatives should perhaps that any advertising that is deliberately targeting children be considered. or vulnerable groups should not be happening, and therefore it is a major concern. The questions raised in this review and the call for evidence seek to ask how Scott Mann (North Cornwall) (Con): It is estimated effective the current rules are, and those will be major that 37 million people in the UK enjoy playing video considerations as part of the call for evidence. games on a daily basis—this includes random content through loot boxes, which they use to enjoy their gameplay. Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD): Liberal Done right, free-to-play games with additional purchase Democrats welcome this review very much, as issues elements can be a good model. So does the Minister such as online gambling have needed to be addressed agree with the Gambling Commission that where in-game for some time. Given the impact of gambling and the items obtained via loot boxes are confined to those damage it causes, and given that the work that needs to games and cannot be cashed out, they fall outside the be done to rectify it stretches across a number of Gambling Act 2005? Departments, what consultations has the Minister had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Department Nigel Huddleston: My hon. Friend makes the important of Health and Social Care and other Ministries about point that, without wishing to be pedantic, there is often the review? a debate about whether loot boxes and games of chance, or those where there is not a financial benefit at the end, Nigel Huddleston: The hon. Lady will not be surprised are actually “gambling” or “gambling-like behaviours”. to learn that DCMS constantly engages with the Treasury However we wish to define them, we are taking action. on a range of issues, and certainly the Department for That is why it was important that we had the call for Health and Social Care has a very strong interest. The evidence on loot boxes, which was completed recently, Health Secretary—a former DCMS Secretary of State—is and further action will be taken, on recommendations, very knowledgeable about the gambling sector and the by the Government. harms, and we are working closely on treatment. The Department of Health and Social Care is looking to expand the number of treatment centres, and we will Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP) [V]: Every year, the continue that dialogue and work across the Departments. gambling industry spends £1.5 billion on advertising to encourage us all to gamble more, which is 25 times more Felicity Buchan (Kensington) (Con): I have several than we spend giving help to people with a problem leading casinos in my constituency, and they have worked with their gambling and 80 times more than it is required hard to deal with problem gambling. Does my hon. to give to the Gambling Commission, which is supposed Friend agree that casinos are important for our international to regulate it. The commission will never be able to tourist economy? regulate the industry properly when it relies for its funding on these tiny scraps that fall from the industry’s Nigel Huddleston: I absolutely agree with my hon. table. Will the Minister therefore agree to look seriously Friend. Casinos form an important part of the attractions. at having the Gambling Commission adequately and They are why many people come into the country, and directly funded from the public purse, so that it is they are important for in-bound tourism. I understand independent and, more importantly, can be seen to be exactly what she is saying. Casinos play an important independent of the industry it is attempting to regulate? part, and the whole point of the review is to ensure a legitimate gambling industry that is on a sound footing Nigel Huddleston: The Gambling Commission and for future growth. I look forward to working with the the Advertising Standards Authority both currently casino sector to ensure that that happens. have a role in reviewing advertising relating to gambling, and they have significant powers.However,many legitimate Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the Minister concerns have been raised on this issue, so both the for his statement about the review of the gambling advertising and the scope and resources of the Gambling industry,and I put on record my thanks to the hon. Member Commission will be part of this review. for Swansea East (Carolyn Harris) for her leadership on 747 Gambling and Lotteries8 DECEMBER 2020 Gambling and Lotteries 748

[Jim Shannon] games such as Fortnite, when our children could be outside playing. Will my hon. Friend confirm that his the all-party group. Time is of the essence, so will the Department will consider an outright ban on gambling Minister assure the House that reform will happen incentives such as loot boxes, as well as better educating quickly? Will reform happen outside the formal review, parents, carers and teachers about the dangers of online for example on loot boxes and the video games that gaming? others have referred to? Could such reforms be implemented with a faster time frame? Nigel Huddleston: The issues around loot boxes that my hon. Friend articulates are legitimate; hence the call Nigel Huddleston: The hon. Gentleman will be aware for evidence on loot boxes. That call for evidence ended that Northern Ireland regulation on gambling is separate on 22 November.The Government are currently considering from that of Great Britain. He raises an important the evidence that has been brought forward, and we will point, and we will work with the devolved Administrations. respond in due course. My hon. Friend raises legitimate Loot boxes fall under a separate review. The call for concerns that have been raised by the Digital, Culture, evidence has just ended, and we wish to consider the Media and Sport Committee and many others over feedback from that as soon as possible. The other many years. aspects that he raised will form part of that review. We completely understand the need for action, and as I said Alex Norris (Nottingham North) (Lab/Co-op): The in my statement, we have taken action where necessary, bookies form a key part of our high streets and provide with legislative and non-legislative measures from loot a supervised environment for responsible gambling. In boxes to changing the rules on credit card use, as well as contrast, the online gambling space is like the wild west. today’s announcement on the national lottery. We are We have heard so much about black market operators willing and able to move quickly. that have caused extraordinary levels of harm, so it is right the Government are looking at this issue. However, Jacob Young (Redcar) (Con): I fully welcome this that will only be effective alongside good online harms review, which will surely protect my constituents in legislation, which we have been promised for three years Redcar and Cleveland from gambling harm in the long now. When will we see it? term. However, the Minister will know—we have had a number of conversations about this—about the issues Nigel Huddleston: The hon. Gentleman is right to point regarding the horse-race betting levy, and the urgent out that the online harms legislation was a commitment. need for reform to support racecourses such as the one It is absolutely a commitment. I know that it gets in Redcar. Will he update the House on any steps he has support on both sides of the Chamber, and we will be taken to fix that situation, so that Redcar can keep on hearing more in due course. racing? Greg Smith (Buckingham) (Con): I very much welcome Nigel Huddleston: I know what a horse-racing fan my my hon. Friend’s statement as a vital step in bringing up hon. Friend is, and we have had many conversations to date the provisions of the Gambling Act 2005, but about that issue. The horserace betting levy is not part may I ask him for some reassurance about how any test of this review, but we are having ongoing conversations of balance will be weighted so that prevention of harm with the horse-racing industry. I look forward to further can rightly take centre stage, while we ensure at the conversations with my hon. Friend. same time that the millions of people who gamble responsibly are not in some way stigmatised, and, as Alex Davies-Jones (Pontypridd) (Lab) [V]: I broadly others have said, that activities are not driven underground? welcome today’s announcement, but given this Government’s unforgivable delay to the online harms Nigel Huddleston: I thank my hon. Friend for pointing Bill, many questions are left unanswered. It is vital that out the absolute necessity in this review for a balanced, young people are protected in their online space, so evidence-led approach. I assure him that we will strike what considerations have the Government made to the right balance between giving individuals the freedom include age verification requirements for gambling providers to choose how they spend their own money,and protecting as part of the online harms agenda? When will the Bill vulnerable people and their families from gambling-related finally be brought to Parliament? harm. It is a balancing act, and we take that responsibility very seriously. Nigel Huddleston: The issues of age verification, product, and the way such things are marketed will be part of Owen Thompson (Midlothian) (SNP): Last year, the this review, and they are also ongoing considerations of vice president of EA described loot boxes as “ethical”, the Gambling Commission. This will be a 16-week review. “fun” and akin to buying “Kinder eggs”. However, We recognise that in these challenging times of covid, research has linked some loot boxes with problem gambling responders may need a little more time to respond to in older adolescents, so we clearly need to take action. I the call for evidence, and therefore the review is slightly hear what the Minister is saying about the call for longer than normal. We will then produce a White evidence just finishing and that that is part of a separate Paper with Government recommendations. As I said, review, but how will that review feed into this wider the review is deliberately broad, and the issues raised by review of the Gambling Act overall? the hon. Lady will be part of it. Nigel Huddleston: Yes, I can confirm that the call for James Sunderland (Bracknell) (Con): I am clear that evidence has concluded, and we will be responding to online harms are increasing risks to our children, and I that soon. Legal definitions were one of the reasons note that families have spent much of the past nine months that it was a separate review from the one on gambling, in lockdown. As a parent, I am worried by addiction to but that should aid the process, rather than hinder it. 749 Gambling and Lotteries8 DECEMBER 2020 Gambling and Lotteries 750

Mark Fletcher (Bolsover) (Con): I warmly welcome amount of gambling that now takes place online creates this review and today’s announcement. As the Minister opportunities to gain much better information about has said, the way that people gamble in 2020 is completely who is gambling and for ensuring that issues that are different from how the majority of gambling took place raised by the review are targeted at those who are when the Gambling Act was passed in 2005. Does the problem gamblers? Will he ensure that that information Minister agree that, in line with these changes, the is more widely available? Government should be considering boosting the powers and resources of the Gambling Commission to ensure Nigel Huddleston: The hon. Gentleman makes a really that it can keep pace with the licence sector and tackle important point. Just last year, for the first time, gross the black market? gambling yield was greater online than offline, so we have now reached that cusp where more gambling in the Nigel Huddleston: Indeed; the scope,roles,responsibilities UK is online.Weshould therefore be able to use technology, and resources of the Gambling Commission will form and emerging technology, in a far more sophisticated part of the review. It is right that we consider the way, as he suggests, to make sure that we identify problem structure of governance and regulation for the industry, gambling and potential problem gambling. I would and any recommendations and suggestions that my expect information on that to be part of this review. hon. Friend has would be welcome as part of the call for evidence. Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab) [V]: In my experience, in the past the gambling industry has been able to exert a Margaret Ferrier (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) great deal of influence over the Minister’s Department. (Ind) [V]: I thank the Minister for his statement and I welcome his commitment to an evidence-based review, welcome the review. However, it is believed that, in the but if the review is to be effective, it will need access to UK alone, members of the armed forces are eight times data from the industry and to up-to-date research. Will more likely to develop gambling addictions, especially if he commit to ensuring that this wealthy industry pays they have experienced past traumatic events. Given this for fully independent research to be carried out, which distressing statistic, will the Minister confirm whether we are all going to need if we are going to carry out this he has had any discussions with Defence Ministers review effectively? about measures to prevent the spread of problem gambling among our armed forces personnel? Nigel Huddleston: The hon. Gentleman makes an important point about the historically poor level of Nigel Huddleston: The hon. Lady is right to point out information, data and research in this sector.It is improving, that certain demographics and roles are more susceptible and we hope that this evidence-led review will add to to problem gambling than others. I have not had specific the base of information. His characterisation of the conversations with the Ministry of Defence yet, but we Department, though, is wrong, as evidenced by the would welcome input on this issue as part of the evidence obvious and significant changes we have made to gambling process. She raises the important point that different over the last few years, with FOBTs last year, the changes segments of the population are impacted and targeted to credit cards, VIP schemes, mandatory participation differently, and the scope of this review includes looking in GAMSTOP and the changes that we are announcing at targeting and the prevalence of gambling among to the national lottery today, as well as a whole host of different demographics. other issues. This Government have shown that we are willing to act when necessary. Paul Bristow (Peterborough) (Con): I fully appreciate that the focus of this review will be on the technological Marco Longhi (Dudley North) (Con): I very much advances in recent years, but I still have major concerns welcome my hon. Friend’s statement. Clearly, having about the number of gaming centres and venues for consumer protection at the heart of any new regulation gambling in Peterborough, particularly in the Millfield is key, so will he describe what sort of action my area of my city,and the subsequent risk of gambling-related constituents in Dudley North can take if they believe harm to some of the most vulnerable local people. I that an operator is in breach of social responsibility welcome this review, but will my hon. Friend consider requirements? giving local councils such as Peterborough City Council further powers to close problem high street gambling Nigel Huddleston: I thank my hon. Friend for those venues and restrict the number of venues in any one comments. He is absolutely right that legitimate concerns particular area? have been raised by many, including in this place, about redress in the gambling sector. That is why the call for Nigel Huddleston: I thank my hon. Friend for his evidence will specifically ask for information and evidence comments. There are already regulations and rules if on potential future redress procedures, and all options there are problems, and social and behavioural challenges, are open at the moment. in terms of the powers that local government has. He raises important points, though; as I said, in terms of Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP): If I may, responsible gambling across the board, we intend to Mr Deputy Speaker, I would like to take my first ensure that this review is evidence-led and looks at a opportunity in the Chamber to pay tribute to one of my whole variety of issues, including the ones he raises. predecessors, Maria Fyfe, who served in this place as Member for Glasgow Maryhill between 1987 and 2001 Mr Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): I very much and who sadly passed away on Friday. She was hugely welcome this review. As the statement has exposed, a respected during her time in this House and in the huge breadth of issues need to be considered. Will the constituency, and our condolences, thoughts and prayers Minister say something about the extent to which the are with her family, friends and comrades at this time. 751 Gambling and Lotteries8 DECEMBER 2020 Gambling and Lotteries 752

[Patrick Grady] Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): We all know that the gambling industry got it very wrong on the campaign One of Maria Fyfe’senduring legacies is the Community on fixed-odds betting terminals. Does the Minister agree Central Hall on Maryhill Road, which is an incredibly that this review is an opportunity for the British gambling important focal point, providing a wide range of services industry to get it right and produce an outcome that for local residents. Over the years—many years—it has maximises the fun for people who want to gamble, but benefited from lottery funding. What steps will the minimises the harm? We all know that prohibition does Minister take to ensure, especially in these difficult not work; what we need is effective reform. times and in the context of the announcement that he has made today, that such organisations are able to Nigel Huddleston: The hon. Gentleman, who I know continue to get the funding they need, whether through is well versed in the industry and is very knowledgeable, the lottery or perhaps other, more sustainable sources? is absolutely right. We must get the right balance here, Nigel Huddleston: I join the hon. Gentleman in paying and we expect the stakeholders, the key gambling operators, tribute to Maria Fyfe on behalf of the whole House; I to play a role in providing evidence in this review. They know I can do so because the shadow Minister and I have contributed already and made some voluntary had a conversation about Maria before we came into changes, but I think we would all like to see further changes. the Chamber. She is a great loss. I know she was an They can make those voluntarily; there is always the incredible champion for women’s rights in particular option of legal regulation at the end of this review, but and made a great impact on the British political landscape. we do not necessarily need to wait for legislation for the gambling industry to do the right thing. We have seen In terms of the lottery and the changes we are some positive moves in the right direction and I welcome announcing today, the estimate is that the impact of that constructive contribution. If we need to regulate 16 and 17-year-olds’ not being able to play the lottery and implement laws we will, but I would also like to see will likely be something in the region of a £6 million further changes voluntarily conducted by the industry, potential loss to good causes. That is out of a total as I am sure he would too. distribution of around £1.8 billion, so it is a relatively small amount. I would like to say thank you to all those who have Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Last but never played the lottery and continued to play the lottery this least, Simon Fell. year. Lottery revenue, and therefore distributions to good causes, has stayed up remarkably well, partly Simon Fell (Barrow and Furness) (Con): Thank you because it has been made very clear that much of the for battling to the end of the call list, Mr Deputy money has gone to institutions, bodies and groups in Speaker; I appreciate it. I warmly welcome this statement. desperate need during coronavirus. I encourage people A few months ago, I met Furness Gamblers Anonymous, to continue to play the lottery safely, in the full knowledge which does incredible work to support those who suffer that the money is well spent and well targeted. most from addiction. I welcome the fact that such Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): May I thank organisations will be able to feed into this review—that the hon. Member for Glasgow North (Patrick Grady) is right and proper—but what consideration has my and the Minister, Nigel Huddleston, for their kind hon. Friend given to the fact that many of those who words about the late Maria Fyfe? She was a popular have the most powerful stories might want to feed in Member, who was well respected in all parts of the House anonymously? and remained active in her local party after leaving this place. She will be missed by her family and all who Nigel Huddleston: My hon. Friend makes a really knew her in Parliament and beyond. One of the best important point. I have a great deal of confidence that features of this place is how hon. Members appreciate many of the charities and third-party organisations and acknowledge the qualities and achievements of working in this sector—many of the key stakeholders—are their predecessors, irrespective and regardless of party. very articulate and knowledgeable, and they have done a very good job of feeding in information already. We Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con) [V]: I hope the encourage them to do so, and I hope they will be able to review will recognise the important role that high street provide further information, while recognising that some gambling venues play in employing local people, and the of this is extremely sensitive and therefore may need to Minister will recognise that it would be rather strange if be confidential. We recognise that information from all the review had the damaging impact of moving gamblers sources is valid, and I encourage all stakeholders to do from the relatively safe, supervised gambling premises what they can to get involved in the review. on the high streets into the unregulated, unsupervised online world. I hope the review will look to bolster gambling on the high street, rather than on the internet. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I thank the Minister for his statement and for responding to Nigel Huddleston: My hon. Friend is absolutely right 39 questions for exactly one hour. We will now suspend to point out that many gambling entities take their for a few minutes. responsibilities for safe gambling incredibly seriously and do a very good job. It is important, therefore, that we strike the right balance between enabling people to 2.50 pm gamble safely and protecting those who are at risk. There is nothing wrong with legitimate gambling that is Sitting suspended. well regulated and enacted in accordance with minimising Virtual participation in proceedings concluded (Order, harm. 4 June). 753 8 DECEMBER 2020 BBC (Transparency) 754

BBC (Transparency) another—at least we can have an honest debate about the value of the contribution they make. Public scrutiny Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order also exposed wrongdoing that led to some staff pursuing No. 23) cases for equal pay. This would not have happened without demands for greater transparency from the public. 2.54 pm Loopholes still exist, but the Bill’s influence extends Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): I beg to move, well beyond the corporation’s current approach. We cannot ignore the fact that some of the BBC’shighest-profile That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require the BBC to publish specified information including all invoices over £500, shows and performers are contracted to BBC Studios. expenditure by region, details of staff remuneration and exit payments, Expenditure data of BBC Studios is not shared in the payments to personal service companies and other contractors, same way, yet they still operate with the benefit of the and the outside earnings of staff; and for connected purposes. licence fee. While that is the case, it is not like any other The BBC (Transparency) Bill is a positive move to commercial organisation, and its expenditure should be support the BBC, to help it adapt and modernise its scrutinised equally. Current standards of transparency standards of governance, transparency and the need to only give us a fraction of the picture and lead to meet the public’s expectations of value for money. The suspicion among the public. We should not have to go Bill will require the BBC to publish every invoice in through the same debate again about an organisation excess of £500 and to take other steps to support greater that capitalises on the benefit that the licence fee brings. transparency of its budget approaching £5 billion. It After all, it is public money, not the BBC’s money. demands that the corporation take positive steps to Elsewhere, concerns have been expressed over other support scrutiny across this important British flagship payments the BBC has made, such as golden goodbyes, organisation. The Bill is aimed at helping to bring about the payment of tax bills of some of its personalities, a cultural change in the BBC, making it more open and and a huge increase—£38 million—in the budget to transparent in support of everything it does. collect the licence fee, which, if it is not paid of course, I raise these issues as one who values what the BBC could result in a criminal record and even imprisonment. can achieve. As the Government consider the future of Some people believe that this policy is discriminatory. the licence fee, this debate and proposal are timely. They Many more women than men are charged, purely through help the BBC meet the Secretary of State’s call as to their circumstance, so it seems that while some people how it intends to make savings and the fact that the benefit significantly from the licence fee, others are organisation needs to reflect the entire nation. The criminalised as part of the process. context is that the licence fee is the most regressive form The Government’s central mission since the election of taxation. That was the primary complaint against has been the levelling-up agenda, and I believe that the the poll tax, but of course this is a television tax, at a licence fee expenditure can play a part. Statistics show time when there is ever-increasing choice in the marketplace, that half the BBC’s network programming budget is with paid-for and free output. In considering the impact spent in London at a remarkably consistent level year on households, particularly the poorest households at in, year out. Although the north of England saw a boost this time, it is vital that we scrutinise spend to secure the in network programme spend to almost 20% in 2016, by very best value for the licence fee for the public. Increased last year that level had fallen to 14%. I also recognise transparency will help the BBC respond to ever-increasing that this is not the whole picture, because network demands from the public. programming is only part of the £5 billion budget. Since 2010, all Government Departments and local Publication of all invoices over £500 would enable authorities in England have been required to publish spending patterns to be analysed and all budgets to be invoices in excess of £500. This key step helped to considered. If we included contractors, commissions change spending patterns and the culture of how public and post-production work, I expect that the London bodies work. The move towards transparency facilitated bias would be much greater than 50%. We should also competition, encouraged new approaches to spending, question central administrative services, HR accounting, and attracted more organisations, particularly small commissioning and other forms of spend. Those could businesses, to bid for contracts. Ultimately, it helped to easily be located across the country to follow the excellent, drive better value for money and enhanced diversity in positive moves that the BBC has made towards the the supply chain. location of its production hubs. Many Members will recall the BBC’s resistance to This BBC transparency Bill would allow colleagues publish salaries of its star performers. Some called it a and members of the public to see where all the licence fee “poacher’s charter” at the time. As a strong supporter was being spent across the country and to form a view. of publication of the data, I can remember even some Salford has seen significant growth over recent years, senior Government colleagues resisting the call, for fear but it would be interesting to see whether that had been that it would lead to a levelling up of salaries. However, achieved to the cost of other blue wall areas in the north- there was a determination among enough of us to west or the north-east. As an example, Cardiff has seen ensure that it formed part of the agreement around the a welcome increase in commitment, but that centralisation last charter renewal. Although the salary levels shocked in a city has come at cost to other parts of Wales. I many, equally importantly they disclosed the disparity would hate to see the growth in Manchester coming at between the pay of male and female presenters. As a cost to other parts of the region, unless, of course, there result, we have seen salaries of some male presenters was a good reason and a value-for-money case behind fall—some would argue by not enough—and the salaries the decision. The public could make a judgment. of some female presenters increase. Now, whatever one’s These issues come into particular focus as the BBC view of the salary levels—yes, there remains much concern responds to public concerns over a diverse range of around the £1.75 million for one and £1.4 million for challenges: Ofcom’s worrying report on impartiality, 755 BBC (Transparency) 8 DECEMBER 2020 756

[Alun Cairns] Taxation (Post-transition Period) (Ways and Means) the removal of free licences from the over-75s and the tactics used to secure the “Panorama” interview with the Princess of Wales 25 years ago, which, if true, will NORTHERN IRELAND (WAYS AND MEANS) cause shockwaves across communities. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I inform the I pay tribute to Tim Davie for the changes that he is House that I have selected the amendment in the name making, including stronger guidance on social media of the Leader of the Opposition to the first motion. activity and on outside interests, as well as establishing a judge-led inquiry on the “Panorama” interview. All 3.5 pm these are welcome, but we still need to revolutionise the The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Jesse Norman): BBC’s transparency culture. This Bill is intended to I beg to move, support Tim Davie to bring about change, and to help the BBC to regain the confidence of the public and to That provision (including provision imposing and regulating new duties of customs) may be made in connection with goods in secure the very best value for money across all its Northern Ireland and their movement into and out of Northern activities. Ireland (whether the movement begins or ends in Great Britain or We are approaching the BBC charter mid-term review. elsewhere). This would be the perfect time to see the changes that It is a delight to see you in the Chair, Mr Deputy this Bill and the public call for. Speaker. Question put and agreed to. In less than a month’s time, the UK will reach the end Ordered, of the transition period and resume its place as a fully sovereign trading nation. As colleagues across the House That Alun Cairns, Julian Knight, Mr William Wragg, will be aware, our negotiations with our counterparts in Mrs Heather Wheeler, Sir Bernard Jenkin, Dame Cheryl the EU continue. The Government remain cautiously Gillan, Mel Stride, Jeremy Wright, Karen Bradley, optimistic about the conclusion of those talks. However, Jackie Doyle-Price, Robert Halfon and Andrew Bowie there is no doubt that we have a responsibility to the present the Bill. people of the United Kingdom to be ready for every Alun Cairns accordingly presented the Bill. outcome. The measures contained in the Taxation (Post- Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on transition Period) Bill, which will be introduced and Friday 15 January, and to be printed (Bill 226). published following this debate, will play an important part in those preparations. The Bill will help to give confidence and certainty to the owners of businesses BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (TODAY) small and large throughout the United Kingdom after Ordered, the end of the transition period. That, at today’s sitting, the Speaker shall put the questions necessary to bring to a conclusion proceedings on the first Ways Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con): Will my right hon. and Means resolution relating to Taxation (Post-transition Period) Friend explain exactly how this matter we are dealing at 7.00 pm, if not previously concluded.—(David Rutley.) with now will be affected by the statement made by the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster about an hour ago, which also deals with the question of goods to be considered not at risk, and with questions relating to customs and tariffs, and the decision that appears to have been taken that the Government have agreed in the Joint Committee with Mr Šefcˇovicˇon a number of matters of which at the moment we only have an outline? I know the Chancellor will make a statement tomorrow, but perhaps my right hon. Friend could assist us in this matter, because it quite clearly has relevance to what he is saying now. Jesse Norman: I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for raising the question, and I will touch on it in my remarks in my opening speech, but I should say to him that I am not better sighted on the breaking news than he is. He will have ample opportunity to address this matter tomorrow with the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster when he comes to the House. As my hon. Friend will be aware, this matter was a product of a joint negotiation with the Commission, and the UK Government do not control the timing of that, and therefore the Chancellor will come at the earliest opportunity to the House to discuss the matter with colleagues from all political parties. Today’s debate is on the important but technical ways and means motions that we need to pass before the Bill is debated tomorrow. If I may, I will talk a little about the Bill’s key elements in greater depth in order to 757 Taxation (Post-transition Period) 8 DECEMBER 2020 Taxation (Post-transition Period) 758 (Ways and Means) (Ways and Means) foreshadow what we are going to see over the next day This Bill will also allow us to amend and modify or so. The Bill will take forward important changes to certain provisions in relation to VAT and excise, including our tax system to support the smooth continuation of mechanisms to ensure that, in so far as is possible, VAT business across the UK. In particular, it will ensure that will be accounted for in exactly the same way as it is we meet our commitments to the people and businesses today. In addition, the Bill will make provision for of Northern Ireland in relation to the implementation amending current legislation for excise duty to be charged of the Northern Ireland protocol. It will help to uphold when excise goods, such as alcohol, tobacco and certain our pledge to protect the UK’s internal market by fuels, are removed to Northern Ireland from Great ensuring that Northern Ireland goods have unfettered Britain. access to Great Britain. To that end, the Bill will set out a new framework for the UK’s customs, VAT and excise Sir William Cash: As my right hon. Friend knows systems following the end of the transition period, so extremely well, all these matters relating to the Northern that there are clear rules in place for goods movements. Ireland protocol and the withdrawal agreement have If I may, I will start with the areas of the Bill that direct relevance to the question of sovereignty.A statement relate to customs. The motion before us relates to was made by the Paymaster General yesterday relating legislation that will be required for customs duties and to the question of negotiations, but the matters that processes to support the practical implementation of have just been raised by the Chancellor of the Duchy of the Northern Ireland protocol. I want to underline to Lancaster in his statement to the press and to the right hon. and hon. Members that the legislation follows public, but not to this House so far, have not been dealt directly from the commitments made in the Government’s with properly, because that statement has not yet been Command Paper on the implementation of the protocol, made to the House of Commons, although it has been which was published in May of this year. The House published in general. will recall that the Northern Ireland protocol guaranteed The point that I wish to make is simple and I would no checks or controls at the Northern Ireland-Ireland be grateful if my right hon. Friend addressed it. In land border and maintained the UK as a single customs withdrawing the “notwithstanding”provisions—clauses 45, territory. 46 and 47 of the internal market Bill—which have a The legislation will achieve its aims through a series direct relevance to the question of sovereignty, does he of targeted changes to the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) have any comment to make and could he please help Act 2018, focusing on five specific areas. First, the the House to understand, if these provisions are being changes will ensure that EU goods imported to Northern withdrawn from the internal market Bill and will not be Ireland from the European Union—for example, goods introduced in the taxation Bill, for which he does have moved across the Ireland-Northern Ireland border—are responsibility, what are the implications for sovereignty not subject to customs duties or processes. with respect to what has been announced? I understand Secondly, the changes will introduce a framework for that the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster will charges on goods arriving in Northern Ireland, both make further comment tomorrow. from Great Britain and from the rest of the world, that are considered at risk of moving into the EU, subject to Jesse Norman: I thank my hon. Friend for having conditions agreed under article 5 of the Northern Ireland another go at this issue. Let me address the questions protocol. that he raises. I do not accept the point that he tries to make about whether this is, in some sense, an inappropriate Thirdly, these alterations to the TCTA will establish procedure. As I have indicated, this is a product of a the framework for the UK Government to offer waiver joint negotiation. The UK did not control the timing. It and reimbursements for tariffs that are still incurred is as agreed with the other party to the debate and the when that is needed. discussion. Fourthly, the customs aspect of the legislation will The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster will be ensure that the UK’s customs regime applies to goods coming to this House at the earliest opportunity once moved from Northern Ireland to Great Britain if they he returns from Brussels, in order to make a statement do not qualify for unfettered access. Anti-avoidance to discuss this and to receive scrutiny from my hon. rules will prevent goods from being re-routed through Friend and from other Members of the House. That Northern Ireland in order to enter Great Britain without seems to me entirely appropriate. I cannot, of course, undergoing UK import processes. comment on matters relating to the United Kingdom Finally,the rules will ensure that customs enforcements, Internal Market Bill, but what I will say is that, in penalty, review and appeal provisions in relation to duty withdrawing these “notwithstanding” provisions, we do can continue to work alongside EU legislation in Northern not regard that UK sovereignty is being in any way Ireland and can apply where required in relation to impeded or undermined—on the contrary. Therefore, I movements of goods between Northern Ireland and think his concern can be and should be allayed, but I Great Britain. leave it to the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster to I will, if I may, respond to my hon. Friend the address those points tomorrow. Member for Stone (Sir William Cash), who raised the point earlier. He was right to point to the EU-UK joint Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP): The statement that has just been made. This sets out the Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy Committee agreement in principle regarding the implementation of heard evidence this morning that the IT systems and the Northern Ireland protocol. The Government are processing procedures to allow the Northern Ireland therefore not introducing the so-called notwithstanding protocol to be implemented on 1 January are not in provisions to the taxation Bill. In the light of that, the place. Will the Minister update the House on what the Opposition’s proposed amendment to the first motion Government are doing to rectify that situation to meet is unnecessary. the technical provisions that he is bringing forward? 759 Taxation (Post-transition Period) 8 DECEMBER 2020 Taxation (Post-transition Period) 760 (Ways and Means) (Ways and Means) Jesse Norman: I think the hon. Gentleman knows following the Northern Ireland protocol and, therefore, that the work that we are doing in terms of legislation following any provisions that he refers to, but what we very much has as its counterpart a great effort to put in are doing is putting in place mechanisms that make place all the procedures that may be required. Significant them as easy and as facilitated as possible, so that the work has been done. He will be aware that there is a experience of someone trading in Northern Ireland trader support service that works directly with people should be as close as possible to that which they would who will be importing into Northern Ireland to make it have today. as close to a one-stop-shop arrangement as possible. The Bill will allow us to amend or modify certain What we are discussing today is the framework for the provisions in relation to VAT and excise, including law under which those movements will operate. mechanisms to ensure that, in so far as possible, VAT will be accounted for in the same way as it is today, as I John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): The Minister has have said. In addition, it will make provision for amending not yet reassured me about the sovereignty issue. Is it current legislation for excise duty. Most of these changes not the case that when any good in commercial quantity are necessary to ensure that there is comprehensive VAT comes into the UK across any border—Northern Ireland and excise legislation in place in relation to Northern or one of our marine borders—there are usually VAT Ireland at the end of the transition period. and excise adjustments to be made and those take place by computer, not actually at the port of entry? Why do In addition to those steps, there is also a small we need special arrangements here? number of other taxation measures that need to be in place before the end of the transition period. They Jesse Norman: My right hon. Friend will be aware include provision for an increase in the rate of duty on that under the terms of the Northern Ireland protocol, aviation gasoline,which will apply across the UK. Otherwise we have agreed arrangements for Northern Ireland with known as avgas, the fuel is a form of leaded petrol the European Union. The goal of the legislation is to predominantly used in private aviation. make sure that, as far as possible, it is a completely seamless and straightforward process for those who are Alan Brown: I notice the Minister said private aviation. trading and that it is unfettered in regards to trade from Is the Treasury going to look at hydrocarbon fuel duty Northern Ireland into Great Britain. That seems to me overall? Kerosene is zero duty rated, which is ridiculous, to be a very important technical fact. when motorists pay duty. We need a system in which the duty is applied to kerosene used by airlines, but given Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): On the VAT the fragile state of the flight industry, we should perhaps issue, which comes to the sovereignty issue once again, do that in a cost-neutral way to it and the Treasury, by under article 8 of the Northern Ireland protocol, Northern incentivising the use of sustainable fuels. Is that something Ireland traders will be subject to not just UK VAT rules, that the Treasury would look at? but EU VAT rules. Do the provisions that the Minister is now putting forward exempt Northern Ireland traders from being subject to dual VAT rules, given the costs Jesse Norman: I admire the hon. Gentleman’s ingenuity that that would present and the huge administrative in bringing this matter into a debate that has no direct issues which would arise from it? relevance to that issue at all. I, like him, would like to see as green and sustainable a world as we can arrange. Jesse Norman: We do not expect the vast majority of This is a measure that does not relate to kerosene; it any trade into Northern Ireland to be subject to any relates to avgas, and it has to do with the need to dual VAT arrangements. The whole purpose of these harmonise—or rather,to manage—the relationship between rules is to put in place the simplest and most straightforward Northern Ireland and the UK, and that is what we are arrangements that can be put in place and that replicate seeking to do. The requirement for an increase is set out in so far as possible the current experience that people in the Northern Ireland protocol—again, it relates only will have when they trade with the EU. to Northern Ireland—but we are expanding it to the whole of the UK to ensure consistency, to avoid burdens Sammy Wilson: Will the Minister give way? on business, and to reduce compliance risks for Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. It is extremely small in Jesse Norman: I will give way once more, and then I its magnitude. will make some progress. The Bill will also make provision for the introduction of a new system for collecting VAT on goods entering Sammy Wilson: The Minister has said that he would the UK. This includes moving the VAT collection on not expect that Northern Ireland traders will be subject certain imported goods away from the border, and to VAT rules of another jurisdiction, but article 8 of the removing the VAT relief on low-value consignments. protocol makes it clear that they will be subject to a Together, these provisions will help to level the playing dual VAT regime. Do these provisions remove that field for UK businesses, and they will protect the UK requirement from all traders in Northern Ireland, or are high street from VAT-free imports. The Bill will also we giving away some of our sovereignty by accepting take forward measures to ensure that the Government that some parts of the United Kingdom and some retain their ability to prevent insurance-premium tax sectors in that part of the United Kingdom will be avoidance after the end of the transition period. This subject to VAT rules from another jurisdiction? will provide Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs with access to the same tools to prevent insurance- premium Jesse Norman: I am afraid that inadvertently the tax evasion—sorry, I should have said “evasion” rather right hon. Gentleman has misrepresented my position, than “avoidance” earlier—regardless of whether or not or misdescribed my position. I am saying that we are an insurer is based in an EU member state. 761 Taxation (Post-transition Period) 8 DECEMBER 2020 Taxation (Post-transition Period) 762 (Ways and Means) (Ways and Means) Finally, the Bill will make provision for new powers United Kingdom’s transition period following its exit that will enable HMRC to raise tax charges under the from the European Union comes to an end, yet this controlled foreign companies legislation for the period afternoon, we still have little clarity on the Bill that the from 2013 to 2018. This technical provision will deal Government tell us they will present tomorrow to set effectively and efficiently with the legacy state aid decision the legal framework for future taxation in Northern relating to the period before the UK left the European Ireland, for value added tax, for aviation fuel duty, for Union. insurance-premium tax and for state aid rules. With less than four weeks to go, the single sheet of Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP): I wonder A4 in front of us is almost all the detail that the why, if the Bill is so technical and dry, and does not have Government have shared with Parliament about their much relevance to the statements that the Chancellor of new tax plans for next month. The only other information the Duchy of Lancaster is making outside the House, we have is that, just over two hours ago, the Government we cannot see a copy. Why do we have to listen to the confirmed that they would withdraw clauses 44, 45 and Minister tell us all about it, but none of his hon. Friends 47 of the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill and or my colleagues on this side of the House can prepare that the provisions of the Taxation (Post-transition properly to respond? Period) Bill would reflect the same approach. The Minister Jesse Norman: I thank the hon. Gentleman. What I recently tabled a written ministerial statement to that am actually doing is giving him a preview of a Bill that effect, although he offered little more this afternoon by will be published in the normal way, after the resolutions way of further clarity. debate has concluded. This is a debate on the resolutions The clock has been ticking ever more loudly. People required to lay the Bill, and we will do so as soon as the in this country might reasonably have assumed that by debate has concluded and the measures have been voted this late date, it would already be clear what the on. At that point, he will have a chance to see the Bill Government’s plans for Britain’s future were. They might and its details. have assumed that by this late date, there would be a clear agreement on our future relationship with the Sir William Cash: In view of the statement that has European Union. been made by the Chancellor of the Duchyof Lancaster—a press statement has been put out; we do not have enough Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): The notice of that at the moment—will my right hon. Friend hon. Member makes an interesting point about the late explain whether the Bill, which we will receive in a few stage of these negotiations. Who is she blaming for moments, or whenever the ways and means resolution that—the United Kingdom Government or the European has been completed, will contain those notwithstanding Union negotiators? provisions? On the basis, as I understand it, that it will not, as the Minister responsible for the Bill which is Bridget Phillipson: Time is ticking. We want to get a being brought in, I think, would he not know that the deal. We are frustrated that at this point, we still do not notwithstanding provisions had been removed? Presumably, have a clear understanding about our future relationship. they are not contained in the Bill—or are they? If the hon. Member shares those concerns, I suggest Jesse Norman: I salute my hon. Friend’s astonishing that he raises them with his own Prime Minister. indefatigability, but I am afraid his memory plays him People in this country—especially those who live false.I have already said that the notwithstanding provisions near our 300-mile border with the European Union, or will not feature in this Bill. I said that earlier in my those who live in or near our port towns and port cities speech, but I am sorry that that was not as clear as it —could be forgiven for expecting that trading relationships should have been, because that is the state of affairs. and rules on the movement of goods would long since This Bill will help the UK to cement its position as an have been finalised. Such reasonable assumptions would independent trading nation at the end of the transition not have been partisan. After all, we have the Prime period. It will give businesses throughout the UK certainty Minister’s own word for it: to leave with no deal would about the arrangements that will apply from 1 January be a “failure of statecraft”. next year, and it will play a part in safeguarding the One thousand six hundred and twenty-nine days is a unity and integrity of this country, both in the months very long time in which Ministers have chosen not to ahead and long into the future. I therefore commend address the issues that leaving the European Union these resolutions to the House. raises. It is 1,421 days since the Government announced that we would be leaving the single market. It is 1,350 days 3.24 pm since the Government notified the EU of the United Kingdom’s decision to trigger article 50. It is 1,240 days Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Sunderland South) since the Brexit talks began and 886 days since the Chequers (Lab): I beg to move amendment (a), at end add plan was announced to the current Prime Minister by “; but any such provision must not place the United Kingdom in the previous Prime Minister. It is a little over 500 days breach of its obligations under the Agreement on the withdrawal of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland since the Prime Minister took office. It is 320 days since from the European Union and the European Atomic Energy the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020 Community which entered into force on 1 February 2020, and became law. They have had ample time. specifically its obligations under the Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland of that Agreement.” John Redwood: Up to this point, Labour has always It is 1,629 days since the UK voted to leave the backed the EU position and not the UK position. Will European Union. In that time, our country has managed the hon. Lady now use the Opposition’s voice to say two general elections, and we are now on to our third that we should not give away our fish and our independent Conservative Prime Minister. It is just 23 days until the lawmaking? 763 Taxation (Post-transition Period) 8 DECEMBER 2020 Taxation (Post-transition Period) 764 (Ways and Means) (Ways and Means) Bridget Phillipson: That is, frankly,a ludicrous statement to do business. I want all our businesses to succeed into for the right hon. Gentleman to make. the future. That is why it is so important that we see a With epic irresponsibility, successive Conservative good deal for our country, and that the Government use Governments have wasted this time. Still businesses are the time they still have available to them well. They have not clear how they will be trading next month. Still not done so yet. I look forward to hearing more from people living along our land border with Ireland are the Minister later about exactly what the Government unsure what daily life will bring in four weeks’ time. intend to set out in this legislation, because he has not That epic irresponsibility comes in two forms. First, really offered a great deal so far this afternoon. there is the immediate irresponsibility—the irresponsibility The Government’s irresponsibility has not been limited to businesses and working people; to everyone who to inaction and incompetence in the face of a ticking needs to be able to plan their future and their finances; clock. There is also the greater irresponsibility that we to everyone who wants the simple security, stability and have seen in recent months—an irresponsibility of which certainty that a responsible Government should provide; I fear the consequences may last for generations—and to everyone who believed the Chancellor of the Exchequer that is the irresponsibility with which this Government when he said on the “Today” programme a year ago have made it clear that they are prepared to break tomorrow, international law. The world will not forget that just “We won’t need to plan for no deal because we will have a weeks ago the Government introduced legislation to deal”; tear up an international agreement that was signed less and to everyone who believed the former International than a year ago. We welcome the fact that they now Trade Secretary when he told us that a trade deal with propose to withdraw those measures, but we fear that the EU would be the damage has been done. The Government threatened “one of the easiest in human history.” to break the law to get their own way. What message That irresponsibility has meant months and years of does that send to Britain’s friends and allies with whom uncertainty and insecurity for so many families and so we have signed that agreement, with whom we have many firms. Make no mistake: the Conservative party other agreements and with whom we hope to conclude has now lost forever any claim to be the party of future agreements? business. That irresponsibility means that people in Fermanagh, Galloway, Anglesey, Kent and all around Anthony Browne (South Cambridgeshire) (Con): You our key ports today still face the risk of their roads talked about the notwithstanding clauses as irresponsible being clogged with queues of lorries for months on end. and said that the damage may have been done, but That irresponsibility—a failure to engage with the problems would you like to join me in welcoming the Government of our country, to look ahead and to plan, to lead and reaching an agreement in the Joint Committee, as was to rise to the level of events—is sadly of a piece with the announced just a couple of hours ago, on the issues that Government’s wider failures in recent months. those clauses were intended to address? The country has suffered terribly from the pandemic: the worst economic hit in the G7; the worst level of Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): excess deaths in Europe; a Government who are again Order. Just a gentle reminder not to use the word “you” and again caught on the hop, scrambling to catch up to the shadow Minister, because “you” means me. with the consequences of their own incompetence; a Government who never use the time they have to get Bridget Phillipson: In fact, I had just indicated that ahead of the problems that they know are coming. It is very point. Everyone on the Opposition Benches is all too familiar. It is the story of everything that this delighted that the Government have in recent days Government touch. managed to conclude a trade deal with North Macedonia, If the Government had got ahead of the issues that but what message does it send to our friends in the our country faces, we would have had a Budget, not a USA, who have made their position on this point very statement, in the summer. Instead of multiple episodes clear, that the Government no longer regard it as at all of the winter economy plan, we would have had a times non-negotiable that they will uphold the rule of Finance Bill with proper time for debate, and proper law? It is because of our concerns on that point that we time for businesses to plan on that basis. But just as the have tabled the selected amendment to the first resolution. Government were behind the curve on covid, so they We wish to append the text of the first resolution, at the are behind the curve on Brexit. And here we are, with end, with a clear limitation that provisions under that tax decisions for next month being bundled together resolution may not place this country in breach of its into a last-minute Bill, which they have not yet even obligations under law. The amendment would insert published—inaction, incompetence, and scrambling to new text at the end of the current text of the first fix the mess that they have created themselves, again resolution to ensure that and again, month after month. “any such provision must not place the United Kingdom in breach of its obligations under the Agreement on the withdrawal Jesse Norman: I am awfully grateful to the hon. Lady of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland for giving way. Could she possibly name any EU treaty from the European Union and the European Atomic Energy … that has not been concluded by the EU at the last Community and specifically its obligations under the Protocol minute? on Ireland/Northern Ireland of that Agreement.” Obviously, in the last two hours the Government Bridget Phillipson: I look forward to seeing in detail have announced that they have reached an agreement in what the Government intend to bring forward on our principle with the European Union on that protocol future trading relationship, as that will determine so and will therefore resile from their expressed intention much around what our businesses will need for years to enact legislation that would have breached those into the future. I believe that our country is a great place agreements. Of course, Opposition Members welcome 765 Taxation (Post-transition Period) 8 DECEMBER 2020 Taxation (Post-transition Period) 766 (Ways and Means) (Ways and Means) that news, even as we find it astonishing that it should real damage. However, while understanding his concerns, ever have been delivered and shambolic that it arrives so I am afraid I do not recognise his assessment of the late. We would not, until this autumn, have ever imagined situation. it necessary to make it clear in a resolution of the House We hope the commitments announced earlier today that the Government, in exercising their powers, must by Ministers will be further repeated in this place, and obey international agreements into which they freely that the assurances regarding the withdrawal of the entered. Yet, as a result of the deep irresponsibility of offending clauses of the United Kingdom Internal Market the Government, that is precisely where we find ourselves Bill will be honoured. Ensuring that the UK’sforthcoming today. We will not oppose the substantive resolutions, tax legislation does not breach our international treaty and we shall wait to see what further reassurances the commitments, and in so doing put the Good Friday Minister can provide before deciding whether to press agreement at risk, is the sole purpose of our amendment. our amendment to a vote. I do not doubt that there will be those on the Government We recognise that there needs to be a lawful basis for Benches who regard such an amendment as weakening the collection of VAT, customs duties, aviation fuel duty their hand, even as they too welcome the Government’s and insurance premium tax, even while we do not yet recent announcement. To them, seeking to legislate to know what the Government propose to table by way of break international law may have seemed a way of showing a Bill. Let me repeat that: we do not yet know what the that they mean business. The delusion would be comic Government propose to table by way of a Bill—less were the consequences not so grave. A negotiation in than 24 hours before its Second Reading and Committee which one party makes it clear that it cannot be trusted—not of the Whole House. Less than a month before we leave inadvertently, but by what passes for strategy—is not the European Union, we simply do not know with any one on which strong future relationships will be built, certainty what measures the Government intend to set nor one that will commend us to other nations as a out. This extraordinary state of affairs undermines the reliable partner for trade or security.What the Government ability of Members to give such important legislation have tossed away this autumn in the search for a fleeting the scrutiny it rightly deserves, not to mention the advantage is a reputation that will take our country ability of businesses to plan. Is the Minister really many years to regain. telling us that it was not possible before today to set out Ways and Means resolutions enable the House to the Government’s proposals on aviation fuel duty or give effect to the taxation decisions of the Government insurance premium tax? Of course it was. These clauses for the year ahead. Some of those taxes and duties will were held back—they still are—so that the Government fall more heavily on some of us than others. But for the could, until a few hours ago, continue to brandish the Government’sextraordinary irresponsibility,which today’s threat of breaking international law as part of their events illustrate so powerfully, I fear the price will be negotiating tactics with the European Union, believing paid by all of us, not just next month or next year but they have an ace up their sleeves, when in fact the whole for many years to come. world sees the Government as a pack of jokers. Although we will not oppose these resolutions, we 3.39 pm cannot and will not vote for any measures that the Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con): I have already made Government introduce that would breach agreements a number of comments to the Minister in charge of this into which this country has entered with her friends and motion, also in respect of the Bill that we have not yet allies, because the consequences of such unlawful acts seen. It seems quite extraordinary, if I may say so, that have been made clear to us. The Speaker of the United we are being asked to give such blanket agreement to States House of Representatives said: the Ways and Means resolution, which is the manner in “The U.K. must respect the Northern Ireland Protocol as which the money is raised to deal with the questions signed with the EU to ensure the free flow of goods across the that arise in respect of the Bill, when we have not border. If the U.K. violates that international treaty and Brexit actually seen a copy of the Bill itself and therefore do undermines the Good Friday accord, there will be absolutely no chance of a U.S.-U.K. trade agreement passing the Congress.” not know what the provisions refer to. I see, for example, that the motion includes reference Sammy Wilson: I note the hon. Lady’s concern for to amending section 9A of the Value Added Tax Act 1994, Northern Ireland, the Good Friday agreement and the part 3 of the Value Added Tax (Place of Supply of Goods) people of Northern Ireland, but does she not recognise Order 2004, schedule 4B to that Act, which relates to that if the protocol goes through in its present form, the call-off stock arrangements, section 18A of that Act, EU has made it clear that it will require measures to be which affects fiscal warehousing, and paragraph 114(2) implemented that have already led to supermarkets saying of schedule 8 to the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) that they will no longer operate in Northern Ireland—that Act 2018. It also includes proposals relating to the they will withdraw from Northern Ireland? The goods rate of fuel duty on aviation gasoline, amending that would be supplied from here to Northern Ireland section 6(1A)(aa) of the Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1979. will no longer be supplied. I am only talking about one It also deals with value added tax questions relating to limited area. How can she defend that protocol, which such matters, and makes provision regarding value added would so adversely affect people in Northern Ireland? tax in cases involving “supplies of goods by persons established outside the United Bridget Phillipson: I am grateful to the right hon. Kingdom that are facilitated by online marketplaces”, Gentleman. I understand the point he raises, but I am or afraid I do not share his assessment of the situation. I “the importation into the United Kingdom of goods of a low value.” say to him sincerely that I think it is important that we There are also provisions relating to the insurance premium have certainty around this area. The Government’s tax in respect of the liability of the insured, amending approach on this has been misguided and has caused section 65 of the Finance Act 1994, and matters relating 767 Taxation (Post-transition Period) 8 DECEMBER 2020 Taxation (Post-transition Period) 768 (Ways and Means) (Ways and Means) [Sir William Cash] I repeat that I am very supportive of the Government and very supportive of the Prime Minister, and I make to the recovery of unlawful state aid in respect of that absolutely crystal clear, but that makes it absolutely controlled foreign companies, in particular dealing with essential for us to have a very clear understanding about the Commission decision of 2019 relating to state aid the reasons for withdrawing the provisions that were “concerning the CFC Group Financing Exemption.” passed in respect of this Bill and were passed in respect That gives some indication of the breadth, and also of the other Bill yesterday, on the same principles of the depth, of these matters. It is very difficult, to put it sovereignty as would need to be put forward under bluntly, to dissect, comment on and make what I would section 38 of the EU (Withdrawal Agreement) Act, describe as a full analysis of a provision that we have which, by the way, is still in statute and can still be used not yet seen, and as I had not actually seen these—nor —and will be, I hope, as we move forward. did I know that they were going to be included until I The Government are withdrawing these provisions of got notice of them just now—I am not in a position to the Bill, which is presumably done for some reason that be able to do more than to say that I regard the whole I cannot quite get but is to do with managing to assuage question of these provisions as something that will some of the hostility in the House of the Lords and the obviously have to be dealt with when we actually see the hostility that has led the European Union and the Bill. What we have not seen, we cannot really comment Commission to threaten legal proceedings unless we on. It is really almost Alice in Wonderland, isn’t it? The withdraw them. No doubt all this is being done in an fact remains that there are important issues of principle attempt to arrive at some sensible or other kind of in relation to all this, and the notes that I have received conclusion and settlement. raise some interesting questions. I do not know whether those notes have been made generally available. John Redwood rose—

John Redwood: Will my hon. Friend comment on the Sir William Cash: But I reserve judgment on that sovereignty issue, which is at the heart of all this? I was until I have heard what my right hon. Friend says. not satisfied by the Minister’s reply, when my hon. Friend was asking very good questions. Does he share John Redwood: Is it not up to Parliament to withdraw my worry that we have not solved the sovereignty issue the provisions that we were asked to support, and did over Northern Ireland in this provision, and that we are support, yesterday? Was there not a long debate in making it worse? which my hon. Friend made a contribution, while I was arguing the case elsewhere? Were we wasting our time? Sir William Cash: My right hon. Friend might have It seems to me that Parliament needs to be asked again anticipated that I would raise this very question with if Ministers have changed their minds. the Minister, as I did when he was in mid-flow at the beginning of these proceedings. That was the question I Sir William Cash: Indeed. asked, and my right hon. Friend has now referred to it. I It is extremely important to point out that these am extremely supportive of the Government in relation notwithstanding provisions are directly related to the to Brexit and to the statements that have repeatedly issue of sovereignty, but also related to the substance of been made not only by the Prime Minister but by other our leaving the European Union. Not until we see a members of the Cabinet, including the Paymaster General copy of the Bill will we be able to make the judgment in the statement that she made yesterday, in which the about the extent to which they would impair or affect word “sovereignty”was completely reaffirmed and stated that sovereignty. We will have to wait until tomorrow to over and over again, and I take the Government at their see exactly what the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster word. But of course issues of the kind that we are presents to the House. We have an outline, but no more dealing with do get somewhat obscured sometimes by than that. The question of sovereignty will no doubt be provisions of legislation, particularly when we have not much discussed tomorrow during his statement. seen the legislation but are asked to comment on it. I heard the Opposition spokesman declaiming, in line That makes life quite difficult in being able to identify with the amendment that they have tabled, that this is with precision exactly what effect this would have on the all about breaches of international law. I have to say to sovereignty of the United Kingdom, save only to say the hon. Lady that in the context of the continuous that yesterday the House of Commons, by a majority of provisions on a whole range of matters, including Finance something like 90, passed provisions in the United Bills that the Labour party was responsible for bringing Kingdom Internal Market Bill, and one would therefore in when it was in government, there are stacks—hosts—of have expected the Bill that is under consideration now— treaty overrides. As I said in my contribution yesterday, which must have been prepared yesterday when we were such overrides have been passed as Labour party proposals debating the other one, because otherwise it could not when it was in government, by the coalition in 2010 and have been printed—to have contained similar provisions. the years following that when the Liberal Democrats I am left in a bit of quandary until we can see that were involved, and also in some Conservative measures this Bill does not contain the notwithstanding provisions that have been passed that are overrides of international that were put in yesterday, which the House decided on, law. I pointed out yesterday that it has been done in in principle, in the interests of sovereignty. I know a bit the past for very good reasons of national interest, about that. I was also responsible for section 38 of the including economic national interests, as they clearly European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020, have been in the past. Some of them were hugely which was passed by a majority of 120 with notwithstanding important constitutional issues—for example, affecting provisions in it at the beginning of the year. So for the independence of India and Pakistan—and there practical purposes,the principle of whether notwithstanding were other provisions that I will not go into in detail provisions are needed has already been established. now, but I have put them all out there on the record. 769 Taxation (Post-transition Period) 8 DECEMBER 2020 Taxation (Post-transition Period) 770 (Ways and Means) (Ways and Means) The extraordinary thing is putting down this amendment constitutional theory; it is actually about the practicality based on so-called breach of international law, when of how this country is governed. It is as simple as that. actually the Labour party itself has done exactly the We are governed by a constitutional arrangement under same in consistency with—not inconsistent with, but in which, through parliamentary government, the Members consistency with—international law. Article 46 makes of Parliament who are who are elected by the voters this abundantly clear. I was very glad that my hon. Friend pass laws that are imposed upon the people by the the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Sir Robert consent of those representatives. It is as simple as that. Neill) conceded that point on the Floor of the House yesterday when he said, at last, that he was going to John Redwood: Will my hon. Friend confirm that support the Government on this question. Lord Judge, when his admirable clause 38 was tried on the previous a very distinguished judge in the House of Lords—the Prime Minister, she rejected it on the grounds that it ex-Lord Chief Justice—who has been leading the argument would mean that Parliament could unilaterally override on the question of international law, has said, in effect, the withdrawal agreement if it wished, and she did not that in principle he knew there was a moment at which want that? there were circumstances whereby a given Government would be entitled to take such steps as were necessary in Sir William Cash: Absolutely, which was precisely order to protect the national interest. why I brought it forward. It solved a lot of problems. Nothing could be more important than protecting our sovereignty. That is what this whole Brexit is about. I must say that the reasons for the notwithstanding It is about being able to ensure our having left the provisions in the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill European Union lawfully by having passed all the Acts were based on the same principle of sovereignty, and of Parliament—and the House of Lords having passed the same applies to the taxation Bill, in which it was all those Acts of Parliament as well—and in addition to understood that the notwithstanding provisions that, having had a referendum on the votes of the would be included. I have not seen the Bill yet—I wait people of this country, which itself was based on the to see it with interest—but I am assuming that the authorisation by Parliament that the referendum should adjustment will not appear. Therefore, I reserve my be allowed to take place. That was passed in the House position with respect to the question of the notwithstanding of Lords and the House of Commons—in the House of arrangements, because I need to be satisfied that there is Commons, incidentally,by six to one—and it was followed, no impugnment of our sovereignty by virtue of the as I have said, by a series of other enactments. removal of those provisions in this Bill. It is as simple as that. I could say much more, but I do not think it will be The European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) strictly speaking necessary for me to do so, because I Act 2017 was passed by 499 to 120, including by the have dealt with all the matters of principle that arise. Labour party, so there should not be any question about that, and I do not believe that the Labour party I am not quite sure how authoritative the material I has anything to gain by trying to argue that somehow or have been supplied with is, only because it was given to other we have unlawfully left the European Union, me by somebody associated with the Government and I which is what it seems to be implying in its amendment. am not at all sure whether it is in the Library of the Then we move on to the European Union (Withdrawal House of Commons; all I can say that it is quite Agreement) Act 2020, which, as I pointed out in an extensive and that it deals with a lot of matters that the intervention, was passed by 120 in this House on Second Minister has already dealt with and that no doubt will Reading. It contained the notwithstanding provisions, be further examined when we get to see the Bill itself. in section 38, that I had proposed to the Government However, I notice that it does include such matters as on 17 October last year. For all these reasons, we have the fact that, whatever the outcome of the FTA and not only lawfully left, but lawfully left on the basis of joint committee negotiations, our sovereignty, which has been endorsed not only by “we have an obligation to the people of Northern Ireland to make the referendum and by the voters of this country, but by sure that they continue to have unfettered access to the UK under their representatives in this House as the House of all circumstances, to ensure that there are no tariffs on goods Commons. They are elected, unlike the House of Lords, remaining within the UK customs territory and to ensure that there is no legal confusion about the fact that, while Northern and in the House of Commons they have endorsed Ireland will remain subject to EU state aid rules for the duration these provisions by massive majorities. So what on earth of the protocol, Great Britain will not be subject to EU rules in would be the purpose of removing provisions that ensure this area. That is the Government’s overriding priority.” that our sovereignty can be maintained? I have heard that said before, in one form or another, I can almost hear somebody on the Government but I think we need to note that that is what this Bill Benches perhaps thinking to themselves, “Well, they’re does. There are other provisions relating to Northern not needed because, actually, the situation has now Ireland customs and Northern Ireland VAT and excise been firmly dealt with in the Joint Committee”. Of that on goods, and a provision that says: we know nothing, more or less, because I have asked the “VAT will be accounted for the same way as it is today, with Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster three times to Northern Ireland remaining part of the UK’s VAT and excise appear in front of our European Scrutiny Committee, system”— and thus far he has not come on these matters. He knows that, and I have had some very diligent, shall we we will check that when we see the Bill. say, correspondence with him on his not attending, “HMRC will continue to be responsible for the operation and although he did allow the Paymaster General to come collection of the revenues, which will not be passed on to the and she did appear before us a few weeks ago. EU”— The point I am making is that this is a critical time in a-ha!— our history. This is the moment when we regain our “while Parliament will remain responsible for setting VAT and sovereignty. It is not just a philosophical statement or a excise rates across the UK.” 771 Taxation (Post-transition Period) 8 DECEMBER 2020 Taxation (Post-transition Period) 772 (Ways and Means) (Ways and Means) [Sir William Cash] no-deal Brexit in the middle of a global pandemic as households and businesses in this country struggle with I am not going to be entirely negative about all this; I the second wave of covid-19. never am. I rely with confidence on what the Government have said with respect to sovereignty and with respect Anthony Browne: I wonder whether the hon. Member to tax. would like to join me in making it clear to the British public These are important questions. I have confidence in that the phrase “oven ready”was used about the withdrawal the Prime Minister. I have confidence in the fact that we agreement, which we did indeed vote into law one week have had a general election and that the manifesto made after the general election, not about the trade deal. The the whole of the Brexit question quite clear to the people Prime Minister never described the trade deal as “oven who voted, giving us a majority of around 80 and, ready”. Would the hon. Member like to join me in in my own case, as much as 63% of the vote in my making it clear to the British public that that is the case? constituency, for which I am deeply grateful to my constituents. All I can say is that we will be watching all Alison Thewliss: It is very difficult to understand these matters with great diligence and with a constructive anything that the Prime Minister says because he swivels approach, because we hope and trust that, when we around on just about everything that he has ever said. have been through the full proceedings on this Bill and, He had two positions on whether we should leave the indeed, finalised the United Kingdom Internal Market EU, so who knows whether he has an oven-ready deal, Bill, that confidence will be entirely justified and there an oven or even a microwave? Who can really tell? It is will be no impairment of our sovereignty as the United quite difficult to establish that. Perhaps, Madam Deputy Kingdom, which is what this is all about. Speaker, we could have a TV mounted in the Chamber I will conclude simply by saying this. Not since 1688 somewhere showing BBC live news so that we can keep have we been faced with a situation of such historic track of what is happening in the negotiations, as the importance, other than when we went into the European new Brexit countdown calculator they have in the corner Union under the false pretences of a White Paper that ticks away. turned out, unfortunately, to be misleading the British It is no secret that these negotiations have been people. There have been two world wars where people difficult and that the UK Government have not helped have tried to take over this country by force of arms—in themselves as we have gone through them. The UK’s particular Germany—and I simply say this: this is the most leaving the EU, because of the attitude that the UK has important moment in our history in the last 250 years, taken, was always going to be the messiest of messy whereby we have regained the sovereignty that was divorces, but the Government have done absolutely no embedded in the arrangements after 1688-89. favours in the way they have approached things. By gradual evolution, we developed parliamentary The hon. Member for Stone talked for 21 minutes, I government and representative government. We are think, about things that he could not see in terms of the described as the mother of Parliaments, as John Bright Bill that is supposed to be being brought forward tomorrow. put it. This is our sovereignty, and we have absolute, The Minister said from the Dispatch Box that he was no total determination—as I understand it, so does the better sighted on where things are at with the negotiations Prime Minister—to maintain that. It is about democracy; than the hon. Member for Stone, who also regards this it is about freedom. It is what Churchill was proud of; it whole situation as extraordinary. The Minister says that is what Margaret Thatcher was proud of; it is what we this is going to be debated in the normal way, but there are proud of. I simply make this final point: we will is nothing normal about this situation here today. We maintain our sovereignty at any price. go to the Public Bill Office and ask it for advice on what is in the Bill and it does not know; we ask the Library what is in the Bill and it does not know. None of this is 4.1 pm their fault; it is the Government’s fault that we do not Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP): It is a know what is in this Bill. It is an absolute farce. pleasure, I guess, to follow the hon. Member for Stone These six resolutions and this phantom Bill are a (Sir William Cash). He was talking about 1688; I think prime example of the procedural chaos that has dominated we travelled there in real time, but I thank him very the Government’s handling of Brexit. Before the taxation much for the comments that he made. Bill has even been published, the Chancellor of the This time last year, we were all in the throes of a Duchy of Lancaster says he slightly surreal Christmas general election, pounding “will keep under review the content” the streets and chapping the doors in the freezing cold, relating to the Northern Ireland protocol. Yesterday, a listening carefully to the concerns of our constituents. statement from 10 Downing Street stated: My constituents were deeply concerned about the state “Good progress continues to be made regarding the decision the UK was in, and they remain concerned today. as to which goods are ‘at risk’ of entering the EU market. Talks It is difficult to believe that we are a full year on since continue this afternoon. In the light of those discussions, the the Conservative party won a majority in this place with government will keep under review the content of the forthcoming promises of a Brexit deal that was “oven ready”. I say it Taxation Bill.” is difficult to believe because we are now just a couple of At 1.16 this afternoon, we had a tweet from Maroš weeks from the end of the transition period and there Šefcˇovicˇ, one of the negotiators, but we still do not still is not anything of substance in the oven. I am not know the implications of today’s announcement and it even convinced, actually, that the Government have an is very difficult to see exactly what is going to happen. oven. The only thing the Prime Minister has driven a The joint statement talks about determining the criteria bulldozer through lately is his own reputation, treating for goods to be considered not “at risk” of entering the these negotiations as a game and continuing to pursue a EU, but we do not know what that means. It mentions 773 Taxation (Post-transition Period) 8 DECEMBER 2020 Taxation (Post-transition Period) 774 (Ways and Means) (Ways and Means) an agreement in principle, but the Government have not John Redwood: I would like to know why the hon. been very principled in the way they have approached Lady supports the EU position on everything. On the anything. How the EU can trust them I do not know. question of fish, does she support the general EU smash-and-grab raid for most of the fish, or does she Kevin Hollinrake: Every business person would ideally prefer the French version, which is to take practically like to have seen the deal done and dusted some months the whole lot? before, but on the basis that the European Union made a commitment to an ambitious free trade agreement, Alison Thewliss: I would prefer it if the Government are there no words of criticism that the hon. Lady is would listen to the concerns of west coast fisheries in willing to use regarding its part in these negotiations Scotland that do not want their fish to die and rot in that are taking so long? lorries at Dover because the Government have not sorted out the trading customs. Alison Thewliss: I think the EU has been more than Members of the House are expected to scrutinise the patient for some time, to try to get some kind of new tax regime in a fast-tracked timetable with no time agreement and something sorted out. The UK Government for debate or consultation with businesses. There are a have held two general elections in that time, and we have host of details in the VAT resolutions. I went through had several different Prime Ministers. The Government them this morning. I copied them and pasted them, and have been an absolute shambles from start to end, and took them from the VAT regulations that currently that is where we are today. exist. That runs to some 20 pages of detail on those VAT resolutions. [Interruption.] I can see the hon. Alan Brown: Despite the valiant efforts of the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton waiting for me to read Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake), is through those 20 pages, but I am not going to do that. I it not the case that if the EU was not so patient, we will send him a copy if he would like to read it over would already have suffered a no-deal crash out months later. We will certainly be further forward than we are ago, perhaps even a year ago? with the Government concluding anything. There is a lot of detail in the resolutions and we need Alison Thewliss: The EU has done everything it can to know what exactly is going to happen with them. because it knows it is everybody’s interest to have a deal. There are issues on penalties relating to VAT in the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act 2018. There are John Redwood: Will the hon. Lady give way? issues to do with the importing of goods as well, and how that is going to work. The guidance on the resolution “Value added tax (online sales by overseas persons and low Alison Thewliss: I will make some progress and bring value importations) the right hon. Gentleman in later on. It is interesting that Tony Connelly from RTE said that the EU nations That provision may be made for the purposes of value added tax in cases involving— are watching closely to ensure that the relevant clauses are effectively withdrawn from the Bill. If I were them, I (a) supplies of goods by persons established outside the United would be looking very dubiously at the UK Government Kingdom that are facilitated by online marketplaces, or on that issue, because we do not know what is going to (b) the importation into the United Kingdom of goods of a happen. low value.” It is quite surreal to prepare for a Bill that we have runs to 11 pages on the UK Government’s website. not yet seen, and from which clauses that do not yet There are 11 pages of detail, but we do not know what exist could still be removed or added, after being rubber- the Government are proposing to change here. We do stamped by the House. The six ways and means resolutions not know what the Government are proposing to do on one side of A4 paper represent a significant volume here and that is very unfortunate. The issue really does of very detailed VAT resolutions. Resolution 6 alone follow on from that: we do not know what the Government refers to a Commission decision that runs to some are going to do and we do not have adequate time to 39 pages on the treatment of CFC group financing scrutinise all the papers and see what is in them. We do exemptions to state aid, and there is still no detail on not know whether the Government’s drafting will actually specifically how the Government wish to amend the work, when it has been done in such haste. substantial pieces of taxation legislation. Patrick Grady: My hon. Friend is providing a ray of We would have advance notice of a Finance Bill, for sunshine in between the dark clouds of the Maastricht example. We would have Second Reading, Committee, rebels who are featuring so heavily on today’s call list. Is and Report over an extended period. That time would it not the case that it is not just us and the Opposition allow evidence and engagement with stakeholders, but who do not know what is going on? Clearly, the that is not so with these resolutions. To take an example, Government do not know what is going on either. The the Finance Bill earlier this year contained a solid five Bill has not been published because there is a massive and a half pages on the detail of call-off stock arrangements. copy-and-paste job going on somewhere in Her Majesty’s We debated them in the Bill Committee at great length, Treasury right now, so that they can have it ready. That and it was tremendously exciting. is probably why we are going to be speaking until 7 pm—they will need that length of time to get the thing John Redwood: Will the hon. Lady give way? finalised, printed and in the Vote Office.

Alison Thewliss: If the right hon. Gentleman can tell Alison Thewliss: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. me something about call-off stock arrangements and Perhaps I should send the Minister my copy-and-paste what the Government are proposing, I will let him in. job from earlier and that would help him out. 775 Taxation (Post-transition Period) 8 DECEMBER 2020 Taxation (Post-transition Period) 776 (Ways and Means) (Ways and Means) [Alison Thewliss] Government have not had a clue. That has been clear all the way through and that is part of the reason we are in But this really matters. The right hon. Member for the difficulties we are in. East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) talked earlier about people, The resolutions in front of us do not represent clever supermarkets, food arriving and places, and what the negotiating tactics by the UK Government. On the impact will be. The Road Haulage Association’s director, Opposition Benches, on the Government Benches and Martin Reid, has warned: in Brussels, everyone can see quite plainly the Government’s “Regardless of whether there is a deal or not, there will still be recklessness in this scenario. At every stage of this customs requirements and it’s the customs requirements that will laborious and unnecessary process, they have sought to cause the delays. Those delays could run on for at least the first undermine trust in proceedings. Any remaining shreds quarter” of goodwill that the UK Government have internationally of next year. The post-transition situation will be chaotic are in absolute tatters. The UK Government are at the and that will be devastating for business, particularly wind-up at a time when we no longer have time to the way the Government are going about it. Further to waste. An EU diplomat quoted in the Financial Times that, speaking to The Press and Journal, Mr Reid said this morning said that the moves of the UK Government the fact that issues still remain to be resolved is shocking: amounted to the UK “The hauliers’ handbook that they produced contains links “trying to use rogue behaviour as leverage”. that take you nowhere, so we’re nowhere near the level of information that is required basically. For goods moving to Ireland, we are still Presumably the UK Government have caved today in not 100% sure what it’s going to look like; as for moving through taking the clauses out of the Bill, but we have to ask the short straits, we still have a great deal of concern as to the why they were there in the first place. How does it help government’s capability either to have the right people in place.” us to say that we will break international law? It is a Nothing the Minister has said this afternoon—or indeed, pretty basic principle that the Government have breached. the scuttling that is going on, on the Government Front Presumably, if the negotiations take a further slide Bench just now—gives us any reassurance as to what is backwards, the clauses can be put back in again. With going to happen. apologies to Mark Durkan, because it is the kind of Business bodies in Northern Ireland’s legislative thing he would have said, it is hokey-cokey legislation. committees have expressed concern about potential It is perhaps not a surprise to those of us in Scotland compliance costs for the future operation of VAT and that the Prime Minister and this Tory Government excise, and nobody knows what it is going to look like. would sell a devolved nation down the river in order to Businesses and farmers in Northern Ireland have been appease those on the more extreme fringes of their party— clear that they are not ready for a no-deal scenario. They have said it will place them under unbearable and Jesse Norman: Did the hon. Lady say that the unnecessary strain. The UK Government are providing Government had sold someone down the river? no technical detail and very little guidance to those businesses.As my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock Alison Thewliss: Devolution. If the Minister was paying and Loudoun (Alan Brown) pointed out so well earlier attention, I said devolution has been sold down the on, the IT system to support all of that just is not there. river— We heard similar evidence to the Treasury Committee. Businesses have begged the UK Government to reach Jesse Norman: That is a most inappropriate term to an agreement, but the UK Government have indulged use, if I may say so. in bad faith negotiating at every turn. Alison Thewliss: But devolution has been fundamentally Sir William Cash: On the question of bad faith, I do undermined—perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will not know whether the hon. Lady heard what I said likethat phrasing better.Devolution has been fundamentally yesterday, but I will say this: there has never been a undermined by the actions of the Government in the more egregious example of bad faith than the manner internal market Bill yesterday,ripping up the very principles in which the EU sought to bounce the Government in by which devolution was established 20 years ago. Scotland the middle, and indeed at the end, of the negotiations. It did not vote for any of this—not in the EU referendum, is quite outrageous and in itself warrants the use of not in either of the snap general elections this Government article 46, which is there to terminate the agreement if have called, and not in the European elections—not the Government cannot get what they need to preserve once, but we are being dragged off the cliff edge anyway. our sovereignty. Even before the pandemic, modelling suggested that Alison Thewliss: I do not really agree with the point a no deal would decrease Scotland’s GDP by 6.1%, the hon. Gentleman makes. That probably will not considerably more than even the 2008 crash. The Office surprise him. The difficulty with all of this is that the for Budget Responsibility estimates that a no deal Brexit UK has never really known what it wanted. on 1 January would inflict a cost on the UK economy of about £40 billion, and increase unemployment by 300,000 Sir William Cash: Sovereignty. next year. All this while the UK economy is already among the worst performing in the OECD due to the Alison Thewliss: The hon. Gentleman says sovereignty. UK Government’s shambolic handling of covid. I am not sure he really understands that either. Jim Harra, the head of HMRC, confirmed at the The UK Government have not known what they Treasury Committee yesterday that doing the paperwork wanted from this situation from the start. I commend alone for this will cost business an eye-watering £7.5 billion the Brexiteers on the Conservative Benches. They have a year. That is £7.5 billion that businesses will not have taken this as far as it can go and they have got what they to spend on improving their businesses, increasing staff wanted. Perhaps they knew what they wanted, but the wages or investing in productivity.There will be 265 million 777 Taxation (Post-transition Period) 8 DECEMBER 2020 Taxation (Post-transition Period) 778 (Ways and Means) (Ways and Means) customs forms after Brexit, compared with 54 million economy, recover the economy from covid-19 and level now. What a complete and utter waste of everyone’s time up the country.”That requires bold and visionary leadership and money, and nobody put that on the side of a bus. and it certainly requires pretty fundamental tax changes. Not content with inflicting damage on our economy, VAT rates on some things are too high. VAT should not these resolutions and the behaviour of the UK Government be imposed on some things at all. We need to remodel throughout this process permanently damage and erode that tax. We need to look again at our corporate taxes, trust in the devolution settlement. We are seeing a where a series of judgments by the European Court of shameless power grab of state aid powers that should Justice prevented this country levying all the corporate have been devolved, quite rightly,to the Scottish Parliament. taxes that it wished to raise. There is still time to pull back from the no deal cliff edge. The choice is entirely the Prime Minister’s to Patrick Grady: I probably should not rise to the bait, make. It is as clear as day that Westminster is acting but does the right hon. Gentleman honestly think that against Scotland’s interests. It is little wonder to any of the way the Government are treating the House tonight us on these Benches that the majority of Scots now is an expression of parliamentary sovereignty? Is this support independence. One of those people who supported what he really campaigned for over all these years, so Scottish independence relentlessly was Craig Munro, that the Government could fast-track major financial who passed away just recently, and our thoughts are legislation, bounce it through the House of Commons, with his sister Gail and his son Sam. They will be not give us the information we are looking for and not devastated that he will not be here to see independence subject it to proper debate? Is that what he campaigned when it comes, because it is there to be won for all of us. for for all these years? More and more people are seeing the urgent need for independence to protect Scotland’s place in Europe and John Redwood: The answer is that I campaigned for all the powers that we have come to enjoy through this Parliament to take control and use it in the interests devolution. Scotland will complete that journey. The of the people, which is why I am making the speech that UK Government’s behaviour through all of this is only I am making. Why does the hon. Gentleman not listen hastening that journey’s end. to it instead of planning an intervention for a speech I am not making? I am urging the Government to take 4.18 pm back control and use it in the way that the public would John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): I declare my like to see them use it. business interests in the register. I must take up the point of sovereignty. My hon. I came to this debate expecting to hear the Minister Friend the Member for Stone (Sir William Cash) is set out a vision of post-Brexit Britain, how the taxation quite right to go back to that. The simple truth about system will be transformed and how VAT will be changed Brexit is that Brexit voters knew exactly what we were to encourage our businesses and give our consumers a voting for. Weunderstood the slogan “Take back control”, better time. Instead, we have six resolutions that are and we think control—the right of self-government, the mainly about trying to make sure that the Government right to trust people in these Houses of Parliament to can get even more VAT out of people after we have left make decisions for us or the right to throw them out if than before. The Government could have done that at they are useless—is fundamental to our freedoms and any time. Where is the vision that we will have a much living in a democracy. You do not bargain those away in better tax system after Brexit? some kind of dispute about tariffs. You do not argue We are taking back control of VAT, which was almost about those in the context of making compromises. entirely under EU control. The Government say, for This is the fundamental truth of Brexit. Like practically example, they wish to be a green Government, but these every other country in the world that is not a member of measures will not even take VAT off a whole series of the EU, we just want to be free to make those decisions green products, which should not have VAT on them if and laws that we can make and have representative the Government are trying to encourage people to institutions—a great Parliament—in order to do that. insulate their homes, change their boiler controls or put We clearly need to train some of the parliamentarians in more fuel-efficient ways of heating their homes. The in the idea that we can make better laws here than Minister has failed this very simple test. people can make for us abroad and that we can modify We have six resolutions about a piece of legislation European laws that we currently have so that they work which we are not allowed to see until after the debate. It in our interests better. is a piece of legislation that will be very complex, because it is mainly about the techniques of raising Alison Thewliss: Does making better laws not start revenue and making sure that no revenue escapes.However, with letting MPs see a Bill before it exists? the Brexit voters out there—the majority in the country— have had to vote three times now for Brexit to make it John Redwood: I do not disagree with the hon. Lady. I clear to the House of Commons that they want even have said that I want to debate a real Bill. I am giving this House of Commons to be in charge, even though ideas to the Minister because I do not think what he has there are still too many MPs on the Opposition Benches in mind for this Bill is going to quite suit me. I want to who hate the idea of this country legislating for and pep it up. I want to make it more exciting so that we can governing itself and think that every law that comes go out to the public and say, “This is the party that is from Europe is wise and necessary and every law that is going to level up. This is the party that knows how to made here is somehow inappropriate. recover an economy that has been damaged by covid”, We want our Ministers to say, “No, we are the and that requires lower taxes and different taxes and people’s representatives. We had the majority in the requires that we use the powers that only the House of election and we are going to transform our country’s Commons has. The House of Lords has very limited 779 Taxation (Post-transition Period) 8 DECEMBER 2020 Taxation (Post-transition Period) 780 (Ways and Means) (Ways and Means) [John Redwood] 4.26 pm Anthony Browne (South Cambridgeshire) (Con): It is abilities to intervene, and on this occasion I am very a great honour to speak after my right hon. Friend the pleased about that, because it nearly always wants to Member for Wokingham (John Redwood) and hear his take the European answer, and the European answer is impassioned plea for a vision about life in Britain after the high unemployment answer, the high taxation answer Brexit. Let me say one thing on that. In my one year and the very complicated taxation answer. here in Parliament, I have spent a lot of time working VAT is an extremely complicated tax. We had to on different bits of legislation about what life will be adopt its complications and we are now trying to add to like after Brexit. For example, the Environment Bill sets those complications to try to avoid items slipping through. out a whole new framework, one far more ambitious We are trying in these proposals to deal with small than the EU’s, to preserve the environment, and the transactions that sometimes escape the net. They try to Agriculture Bill removes the totally discredited common find ways of making online organisations, for example, agricultural policy,which I would like to see any Opposition responsible for levying tax between two people trading Members support, and replaces it with a new regime in with each other. the UK that is fit for purpose. Alan Brown: The right hon. Gentleman referred to I am the proud product of the EU and its internal the levelling-up agenda. On rough figures, we have had market; I am half Norwegian, part Irish, part French, 50 years of the EU, 20 years of devolution and over with extended family in Italy and Denmark. I have also 300 years of the Union. Why are devolution and the EU been engaged in European politics for about 20 years. I to blame for the requirement to level up when, quite was Europe correspondent for The Times, living in Brussels clearly, the Union is at the heart of the problem? for three years. I was in charge of all the EU funding in London during the Prime Minister’s first term as Mayor John Redwood: I do not agree, and nor did Scottish of London. As chief executive of the British Bankers’ voters when they were asked this question. We do have a Association, I led all the negotiations for Britain’s biggest great democratic country and I was a great enthusiast export industry in the European Commission, Council for the people of Scotland deciding whether they liked and Parliament, with meetings up to and including our Union or not. They said, yes, they liked our Union. Jean-Claude Juncker. So I have had a ringside seat at Then the people of the United Kingdom were asked many European negotiations, and we all know that they whether they liked the European Union and they said are part showmanship, part brinkmanship. Everything they did not. So I found myself in the happy position of is always left to the last minute, and for a very good agreeing in two big referendums with the winning side. reason—this picks up on the point made by the shadow It is such a pity that the Scottish National party lost Minister,the hon. Member for Houghton and Sunderland both and has never understood the democratic principle South (Bridget Phillipson)—which is that we are negotiating that it then has to accept the verdict. I was on the losing with 27 different countries and they all have differing side in a former referendum; like my whole party, I was interests. A lot of them have a vested interest in trying against the principle of Scottish devolution, and we got to leave everything to the very last moment. I have sat that wrong. We lost that referendum and from the day through many Council meetings and summits where after that we did not fight it, delay it or dilute it. We things went to not just to one minute to midnight, but said, “Yes, devolution is the wish of the Scottish people.” several hours past it. We got on and implemented it. Alan Brown: Earlier, the hon. Gentleman tried to do Sir William Cash: I do not know whether my right the whole “oven-ready deal was to do with the withdrawal hon. Friend can recall this, but when that Bill was agreement”, which we know is a fudge. If this is so introduced by the late Donald Dewar in 1997 I put complicated, as he highlights just now, with 27 other forward a proposal that the devolution settlement should countries involved, what does he say about the former be decided by a referendum of the entire UK. Perhaps it International Trade Secretary, the right hon. Member is some encouragement for him to know that despite a for North Somerset (Dr Fox), who said that a free trade three-line Whip half the Conservative Back Benchers agreement with the EU would be the “easiest in human went through the Lobby behind me on that question of history”? How does the hon. Gentleman conflate or having a referendum for the whole UK on this devolution twist that? issue, about which he is being so extremely articulate. Anthony Browne: I never thought that it would be a John Redwood: We are probably straying a little away really easy negotiation. It was clearly going to be from the resolutions before us, Madam Deputy Speaker, complicated, and the Government have been negotiating so I will not try your patience any more. I have made my in good faith. two main points, but just to summarise: we need more Another thing I have noticed from EU negotiations is vision from the Government to use our power to tax in that there are many different negotiations happening in our own way, because our current tax system is ill fitting parallel, and virtually no one knows what is going on. and not yet geared to promoting that recovery we want In fact, no one really knows what is going on apart from —we need greater simplicity, lower taxes and a lower the people in the negotiating room, and often the people incidence of taxes to get that recovery going; and we in the negotiating room do not know what is going on, need reassurances from the Government that sovereignty because there is some ambush being plotted somewhere is not something one can bargain away or compromise else that then slips into the negotiations. We have to trust over, but is fundamental. We either have a free trade our negotiating team. They are the only ones with the agreement between an independent UK and the EU, insight and knowledge of what is going on to be able to which is our preferred model, or we have no deal. It is as make judgments about when an issue should be pushed, simple as that. The choice is theirs. when to play hard ball and when to turn up the charm. 781 Taxation (Post-transition Period) 8 DECEMBER 2020 Taxation (Post-transition Period) 782 (Ways and Means) (Ways and Means) That brings me back to the “notwithstanding”clauses. know the scenario, and I am sure we have all done it: we I strongly welcome the Chancellor of the Duchy of order goods online from overseas and they are delivered Lancaster announcing this agreement on all the Joint through the post. The VAT payment is not made in the Committee issues with the European Commission. That UK—it is often made overseas—or often not made at protects the Good Friday agreement and the Northern all. That mattered less when we were part of the EU,because Ireland protocol, and it will protect peace in Northern we had an agreement with the EU under which VAT Ireland. was charged. Following Brexit, it is even more important Those “notwithstanding” clauses were needed only in that we have a system where there is proper,robust payment case the Joint Committee did not reach agreement. It of VAT.This is really important for high streets in Britain. has reached agreement, and therefore those clauses are The high streets in my constituency have really suffered not needed. The hon. Member for Houghton and from the coronavirus closures and lockdowns and from Sunderland South said that the damage is done, but it is people moving to e-commerce. More than ever, we need not. Often in negotiations, we need to play hard ball to a level playing field between the high streets and get an agreement. It is entirely plausible that if we had e-commerce, so I fully support that provision. not had those clauses, this agreement would not have The second tax evasion provision is on the insurance been reached. We have that agreement, and the whole premium tax. Again, this was less of an issue when we House should welcome it. were in the EU. It is about whether somebody who buys But it’s not all over till it’s over. We do not have the insurance from other countries pays the insurance premium trade deal yet. There are still negotiations going on. I tax that insurance companies in the UK are required to hope that we do get a trade deal, as I think the whole pay. We had an assistance agreement with the EU to House does; very few people do not want that. It is very ensure that EU insurance companies paid that insurance much in both sides’ interests that we get an agreement. premium tax. At the end of the transition period, that It is in President Macron’s interest as well. I would not comes to an end, and this provision fills that gap, so I like to see him have to tell his entire fishing industry that very much welcome it. This Bill is absolutely necessary. it is about to lose 100% of its access to British fishing It would be a dereliction of the Government’s duty to waters. Until we have a trade deal, the Government ensure the integrity of the UK if we did not pass it, and have to negotiate for all the different scenarios of having I fully commend it. or not having a trade deal. We do not have to legislate for the Joint Committee not reaching an agreement, 4.34 pm because it has done so. Therefore, we do not need those Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): I note that the “notwithstanding” clauses in the Bill. hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire (AnthonyBrowne) The Government have an absolute duty to ensure the talked of being part French, part Norwegian and part integrity of the UK and its internal market and to do Irish—he had other bits as well that I did not quite pick everything they can to ensure as much continuity as up. Can I assure him that I am 100% British and want possible for businesses affected by this. The Government to remain 100% British? I have taken the stance I have have an absolute obligation to the people of Northern against the withdrawal agreement, and the approach Ireland—I speak as someone with a lot of family in that people have taken to it, because it diminishes my Northern Ireland—to ensure that they have unfettered Britishness. access to the UK in all circumstances. There must be no I am not quite clear what is in the legislation that the tariffs on goods from Northern Ireland to GB or GB to Minister is introducing today, and I am even less clear Northern Ireland, so long as those goods are consumed now, because, according to the statement issued by the in the UK. Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster at lunch time, I welcome the agreement on the Northern Ireland whatever is in the Bill today, some of it will not be in it border, which is be welcomed, but there is still the tomorrow. As far as I am concerned, the parts that are possibility of a no-deal scenario, and there might therefore important seek to manage the parts of the withdrawal be tariffs. It would be a dereliction of the Government’s agreement that are damaging to the Northern Ireland duty if they did not legislate to have a tariff regime in economy and to the internal market of the United Northern Ireland, which is what the Bill does. Kingdom, which are underpinned by the Act of Union. The Government have a duty to ensure as much Those are the important parts for me. It seems that they continuity as possible for businesses. The Bill ensures might well be removed from the Bill before it even gets continuity of administration for VAT and excise duty in to the Floor, or certainly they will not be exercised. Northern Ireland, so that businesses in Northern Ireland Why do I believe that protections are needed? The know that they will still be part of the VAT and excise withdrawal agreement intervenes and undermines many duty regime in the UK. parts of the Northern Ireland economy. It also damages the Northern Ireland economy’s relationship with the Alan Brown: The details of the Bill have not been biggest market for Northern Ireland businesses, which made clear, so I am not sure how it provides the certainty is the market in Great Britain. It interrupts the supply that the hon. Member is talking about. of goods from the main source of the supplies that we receive in Northern Ireland, right down to basic foodstuffs, Anthony Browne: Wehave been given enough information the equipment required by manufacturers and the parts so far to know the general principles of the Bill, but we required by producers in Northern Ireland who then are discussing a Ways and Means motion. The Bill will export their goods across the world. The withdrawal be published after this, in time for Second Reading. agreement seriously undermines that and the interpretation There are two provisions on tax evasion in the Bill of the withdrawal agreement by the EU even goes that are very welcome. The first is on ensuring that VAT beyond what the agreement said and what the Government is paid on goods bought online from overseas. We all expected from the agreement. 783 Taxation (Post-transition Period) 8 DECEMBER 2020 Taxation (Post-transition Period) 784 (Ways and Means) (Ways and Means) [Sammy Wilson] allow the internal market of the United Kingdom not to be disrupted and the economy of Northern Ireland Let me give just one example: goods at risk. According not to be undermined, the EU has refused to give that to article 5 of the protocol, exemptions could be made, interpretation. In fact, it has done the exact opposite determined on the basis of and looked for the most draconian interpretation of the “the final destination and use of the good; the nature and the agreement. Only last Friday, the EU insisted that anyone value of the good; the nature of the movement; and the incentive travelling from GB to Northern Ireland would have to for undeclared onward-movement into the Union, in particular have their personal baggage searched to ensure that they incentives resulting from duties payable pursuant to paragraph 1.” were not taking any contraband into Northern Ireland, Yet despite the fact that some goods clearly do not despite the fact that article 5 of the Northern Ireland present a risk under any of those criteria, the EU was protocol states that the “nature and value” of the goods insisting up until this week—I do not know what has should be considered. happened at the Joint Committee; we will hear from the I hope that the hon. Member for Houghton and Minister tomorrow—that even supermarket goods brought Sunderland South (Bridget Phillipson) can understand from GB to Northern Ireland for shops that did not that when she and the Labour party table amendments even have outlets in the Republic would be regarded as such as the one she moved today,saying that the withdrawal goods at risk. Goods that had been freely consumed agreement must be guarded and protected at all costs, across the EU for the last 40 years, made in GB, from she is in effect saying, “We put the value of this piece of which nobody died of poisoning or had their health paper above the interests of the people of Northern affected, were no longer acceptable. Ireland.” This is putting that piece of paper above the Kevin Hollinrake: The right hon. Gentleman is making interests of the people of Northern Ireland to have the some very good points. He is clearly saying that the range of goods that they want and at the best prices, European Union is being difficult in these negotiations. and above the interests of businesses that export from Is he therefore surprised that there was not one word of Northern Ireland to GB. In effect, that is what her criticism for the EU’s role in the negotiations from the amendment says. SNP or the official Opposition? I am even more amazed that any representative from Northern Ireland dares to put their name to that Sammy Wilson: No, I am not, and the reason for that amendment. I wonder what the consumers and businesses is that from the day that the people of the United in their constituency think about somebody who values Kingdom voted to leave the EU, the cheerleaders for the protection of the EU, and an agreement that the EU EU have been those sitting on the Opposition Benches— has with the UK, above the interests of their constituents. apart from the Members from my own party. At every stage, it has almost been as if the EU had its representatives Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): Does my right sitting in this Parliament. The Labour party in particular hon. Friend accept that the Republic of Ireland’s interests suffered from that, because many of its patriotic supporters with regards to Northern Ireland are many times predatory asked, “What kind of representation are we getting, in terms of our businesses? They wish to stifle the where these people are seeking to undermine our country, competition that exists on the island and to stifle the rather than uphold our sovereignty and the result of the thrifty economy of Northern Ireland. They have done free vote that the people of the United Kingdom undertook so in many ways and the withdrawal agreement gives in the referendum?” them further opportunity to do that. John Redwood: Did the right hon. Gentleman note that when I intervened on Labour and SNP Members Sammy Wilson: Yes, the worrying thing is that, with to invite them to support just something in the current the withdrawal agreement in place, Northern Ireland is UK negotiating position, they could not bring themselves subject to laws made in Europe—laws into which the to support a single thing that this country wants from Irish Republic will have an input; laws into which, the negotiations? because we have left, the UK will have no input; laws into which Ministers in the Northern Ireland Assembly Sammy Wilson: Again, that does not surprise me,because will have no input. We are at the mercy of those who most Members on the Opposition Benches wish, first, wish to engage in this predatory behaviour and use EU that the referendum had never happened; secondly, that legislation to damage Northern Ireland. the result had not been as it was; and thirdly, that they That is why the protections are needed. The protections could find some Machiavellian way to undermine it, as that I would like to see in the Bill—unfortunately, it they have been doing for the last number of years. It is appears the Government are prepared to withdraw the unfortunate that we are in the position that we are protections before they have even introduced the Bill— partly because the EU knows that there are people in would apply where the EU insists that goods that come this Parliament who will undermine the Government’s into Northern Ireland have tariffs and would have tariffs negotiating position. That, of course, makes it more imposed on them if they were going into the EU. That difficult for the Government to negotiate. I do not give barrier should not be in place. Northern Irish consumers that as a justification for some of the things that the and businesses which bring in goods that will clearly be Government have agreed to in the withdrawal agreement, sold and consumed in Northern Ireland should not whether they relate to Northern Ireland or to the impact have to pay those taxes. I heard what the Minister said. on the rest of the United Kingdom; to me, the withdrawal It appears that, even with the Bill, he is not ruling that agreement is poison that will infect any future trade out. If I noted him correctly, he said that there would be arrangements that we might get with the EU. a waiver where tariffs are incurred that should not have The point that I am making is that protections are been incurred. He is almost admitting that, in the Bill needed because the EU has taken the withdrawal agreement. that he has introduced, there will be provision to repay Even where the agreement does give some latitude to those tariffs. However, producers in Northern Ireland 785 Taxation (Post-transition Period) 8 DECEMBER 2020 Taxation (Post-transition Period) 786 (Ways and Means) (Ways and Means) will find themselves in a situation where they have to my constituents and those are the issues that stem from pay EU tariffs, prove that the goods on which they paid this protocol. That is why this protocol is poisonous to the tariffs did not go into the EU, and then get the the internal market of the United Kingdom. money back. That presents a number of problems. First, the trade 4.52 pm itself is not free. Secondly, the business that has to pay the tax has a cash-flow issue. Thirdly, there are additional Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con): administrative costs involved in proving that some of It is always a pleasure to follow my right hon. Friend the the goods on which it paid tax did not leave Northern Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson). He is one of Ireland. If there is anything that will put a chill on trade the most effective and passionate communicators in this between GB and Northern Ireland, it is that. I am Chamber and, if nothing else today, he has reminded concerned—perhaps the Minister in his response will be the Labour party that there are two sides in a negotiation. able to give me some comfort—that the Bill, even though We have had a very wide-ranging debate so far, some it will carry some protections, still does not give that of it even on the ways and means resolutions. Should absolute protection for businesses in Northern Ireland these actually come to a vote later this evening—we because of the terms of the protocol. I could provide have had some apocalyptic language used, but apocalyptic many other examples of the EU’sdraconian interpretation language does not always follow through into actually of the Bill. Someone who takes their pets from GB to voting—I will be supporting them, because we must Northern Ireland would be affected, or someone going make sure that preparations are in place for the end of on holiday there. Someone taking their pet from Northern the transition period. This Bill is a part of that, which is Ireland to a dog show in Scotland will now have to have why these resolutions should pass. This Bill is also a a pet passport, a rabies vaccination, and all the part of ensuring that we are legally prepared for the documentation surrounding that—probably about £400 different outcomes that could flow from the negotiations, a trip, yet we are part of the United Kingdom. this work in progress. We do not know what it will say, but I just want to put it on the record again that I hope That is why protections are needed. I implore the we will have a deal along the free trade lines already Minister—I know what has been said in the statement agreed. today—not to remove the notwithstanding clauses in the Bill until it is sure that the issues that are likely to The Bill is also about ensuring that we have smooth arise have been dealt with properly, because we have not continuity of business. Of the six measures, three deal even seen the detail of the particular things that have with Northern Ireland and the protocol. There are been agreed. colleagues in this House more focused on the detail of Northern Ireland policy than me. I just want to say that In conclusion, it is a pity that we do not have the I view Northern Ireland as a really important part of detail of this Bill today. It is a pity that we do not have the United Kingdom. I want to see the continuity of the assurances. I note what the Minister said about the trade operate smoothly and effectively across all four VAT regime, which is that Northern Ireland businesses parts of our United Kingdom, and I am pleased that will remain under the UK VAT regime. That is true, but the Government have made the obligation to the people what he failed to say was that, as a result of the Bill, of Northern Ireland about continued unfettered access they will not also remain under the EU VAT regime. to the UK under all circumstances. Article 8 of the Northern Ireland protocol makes it clear that we will and that has all kinds of implications. I will not add anything further to the contributions We have to have two different VAT systems. We have to on Northern Ireland. Those measures have been talked have different means of VAT recording. Will we be about in this debate already and very articulately. There subject to the EU conditions when it comes to VAT are three other measures, which are reforms to the wider exemptions, or the various tiers of VAT rates? Will the tax system. The most significant is the new model EU exemptions for small businesses apply to Northern treatment for VAT on goods arriving into the UK from Ireland—the ¤85,000 or whatever it is—so that small overseas. Basically, the collection of VAT will move businesses find themselves caught in a net that they from the existing arrangements on to the overseas seller would not have found themselves caught in had we been or the online marketplace where the sale transaction truly under the UK VAT system? It is not enough to say occurred, making the collection of VAT easier and that we will remain under the UK VAT system. The ensuring a more level playing field, especially for the important thing is: will we be exempt from article 8 of UK high street. Businesses on every high street in the the protocol as a result of the measures in the Bill? country have been having a rough time for many years, and one reason for that is the rise of internet shopping. Those are the kind of issues that people in Northern Many businesses have a physical and digital offer—both Ireland are looking for. Traders in Northern Ireland— bricksandclicks—makingthemselvesavailabletocustomers people who sell used cars, for example—will now be through whichever purchase route they choose. These subject to EU rules. It used to be that they incurred only businesses pay VAT and will be unfairly undercut if the marginal VAT rate, on the profit made on the car. overseas businesses are allowed to make VAT-free sales. Now the VAT rate will apply to the whole price of the This measure will tackle non-compliance. I understand car, putting up the price of second-hand cars for people that similar measures are in place in other parts of the in Northern Ireland. They will be paying above what world and, indeed, that the EU is introducing something they would pay if they lived in the rest of the United similar. Kingdom. The fifth measure is about tackling tax evasion in the Perhaps in his summing up, the Minister can let us insurance sector so that HMRC can prevent tax evasion know whether the Government are addressing any of whether an insurer is based in the UK or not—basically those issues, because those are the issues that concern it is the power to issue a liability notice irrespective 787 Taxation (Post-transition Period) 8 DECEMBER 2020 Taxation (Post-transition Period) 788 (Ways and Means) (Ways and Means) [Andrew Jones] but it has direct effects on people’s lives. It means goods, food and essentials being available to people’s families of location. That is part of the creation of a level and, of course, to sustain businesses. My hon. Friend playing field for UK businesses, just as the previous the Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Alan Brown) measure was. The last measure is very technical in talked earlier about the evidence given to his Committee nature, dealing with taxation implications from legacy about systems that were simply not in place. The Minister state aid decisions. All I can say is that as I am glad that cannot claim that access will be unfettered in those my right hon. Friend the Minister is on the case. This circumstances, because even with a low deal, there is a measure was perhaps designed for specialists. clear probability of critical shortages and delays. People’s Overall, the continuity of seamless trade across the lives will be affected, in some cases severely, amid what UK is critical for us all. The United Kingdom Internal is, let us not forget, a global pandemic. Market Bill has that at its core. That principle is maintained The Northern Ireland Retail Consortium has naturally in this Bill, alongside the measures for a level playing welcomed the news today, but it points out that there field, which is why I shall support it. are still major problems ahead, as is the case in Scotland. It has published new research from its Brexit working 4.56 pm group showing that the majority of businesses could not and will not be prepared in time. They include food Drew Hendry (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and producers such as those in the Northern Ireland meat Strathspey) (SNP): This debate has been far more industry. entertaining than I imagined it would be at the start. We have seen some real squirming on the Government Wehave also heard from the Road Haulage Association. Benches, particularly from the Minister and some unsettled It has to be said—a former Transport Minister, the Members who have steadfastly supported Brexit for hon. Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough quite some time. One of the best pieces of gymnastics I (Andrew Jones), is sitting across from me just now—that have heard today has been from the Government Bench: the association has been raising concerns about this, it has to be the rejection of the idea of the Prime Minister’s year after year. It has known what is coming in logistical oven-ready deal. It reminded me of William Hughes challenges. Even with a deal there will be delays, and Mearns, who said—well, he didn’t; I am reimagining— delays mean shortages, so spare a thought for the Road “Yesterday upon the table, they had a deal that wasn’t Haulage Association. It should have been central to the there. It wasn’t there again today. Oh, how they wish Government’s planning. Its members are the experts on that deal would go away.” logistics; they are the people who know on a day-to-day basis what needs to be done, yet they have been ignored The Minister said at the start of the debate that he by this Government pretty much all the way through, was not even briefed on his own Government’s save for some platitudes and some “There, there, things announcement; he did not know the news coming through will be okay” comments. Those people should have that affected what we are debating. been at the heart of these preparations. Jesse Norman: As you will be aware, Madam Deputy It is rare for me to agree with anything that the hon. Speaker, I said no such thing. In fact, I responded and Member for Stone (Sir William Cash) has to say, but outlined the relevance of the statement to the speech I have to agree with him that what we are being asked to and the debate. What I said was that I had no privileged debate today is impossibly vague. As far as I can see, access, since I am not myself a member of the committee the Ways and Means resolution in its present form, that discussed this item, but that the Minister concerned even after the Government’s announcement today, still would be coming to the Chamber to discuss it tomorrow. contradicts the withdrawal agreement. So unless the Minister can clarify that that is not the case, we will have to assume that it is still the case at hand. Northern Drew Hendry: Hansard will confirm whether or not Ireland, like Scotland, never voted for this Brexit shambles, he said he was not sighted on the Government’s yet families and businesses there will both feel the effect. announcement this afternoon. Even if we take him at his word, he comes here woefully ill prepared to tell us The Minister said earlier that it was inappropriate to what might be in the Bill; he can tell us some things that say that the Tories had sold devolution down the river. will not be in there because of that announcement this Well, apart from being tellingly sensitive, he has obviously afternoon, but he cannot tell us what will be in there. also not been sighted on the United Kingdom Internal We are none the wiser as to what might be in the detail, Market Bill clauses that still remain. People in Scotland which my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow Central are not daft. They see what this Government are doing. (Alison Thewliss) so forensically went through earlier. They see what is going on, and that is why, soon, they He could have given a lot more detail on the issues that will choose to take their own place in their own future will be affected. We just do not know what is going to with an independent nation. come forward. It is not clear. It is good to know that the lawbreaking clauses that might have been contained in 5.2 pm the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill will no longer Shaun Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Con): It is a be contained in this Bill. Of course, they should never pleasure to speak in this debate today. I have been have been in this Bill or the internal market Bill. While listening to the debate from the start with some interest, we welcome their going, that situation should never and there have certainly been some vigorous contributions. have occurred in the first place. I must say that I was presented with some hope by my The Minister talked about giving confidence and hon. Friend the Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough certainty and meeting the commitments to the people of (Andrew Jones) when he spoke to the actual motions. I Northern Ireland, but there are still serious issues for was nearly aghast, because for me this debate has felt a the supply chain. It is a dry term, “the supply chain”, bit like groundhog day, to be honest. 789 Taxation (Post-transition Period) 8 DECEMBER 2020 Taxation (Post-transition Period) 790 (Ways and Means) (Ways and Means) Twelve months ago, like all of us in this House, I was The fact is that life is going to move on. We are going out there pounding the streets in my constituency, 70% of to have to go into 2021 and carry on with our lives. We which had voted to leave the European Union. There will have to move forward, whatever our nation looks had been a Labour MP there for some 90 years. I was like; I appreciate there are divergent views across the there as grown men were breaking down and crying on House on how that will look in one way or another, but their doorsteps because everything they believed in had we must ensure that we can function, that our constituents been completely betrayed and abandoned. They had been can carry on with their lives and that business can carry told that they did not understand what they had voted on, and that is what these motions are about. At their for, that they had no comprehension of the impact of heart is the practicality of ensuring that we can raise what they had done, and that as a result, they did not revenue, that we can follow through those taxes and that really deserve to have their voices heard. That is why I our VAT system works. am here today; it is because of how they felt. To pick up a point that my right hon. Friend the I will now get to the core of the motions. Hon. and Member for Wokingham (John Redwood) made, we right hon. Members have talked in much depth, and I have real potential now, with our VAT freedoms coming want to talk about the VAT implications, particularly back to us, to do some really innovative things. A prime for my retailers, and about motion 4 on the Order example would be zero VAT on sanitary products; that Paper. My hon. Friend the Member for Harrogate and has been a huge campaign, and I pay tribute to the people Knaresborough made a very detailed interrogation of involved in it. That is something that we can ensure these regulations, and he was right. This is about ensuring carries on. Equally, on digital books and services, we that our high streets, our domestic retailers, can have a can ensure that, in areas such as mine with some of the balanced playing field as we move forward. highest levels of child deprivation, we close the digital These regulations are needed either way, because we gap and ensure that educational opportunities are there. have to accept the fact that we have left the EU and that People might think that these things are minutiae and on 1 January we will have a new relationship, whatever that they are abstract compared with everyday life, but that looks like. My constituents, leave or remain, want a they are not. They are at its core. We do not hear about deal. They want to ensure that this is done. There is no them and we do not talk about them often, but they are denial about that. We want to get this done in the right there and they have an impact on every single one of way. We want that consistency; we want to ensure that our communities, from Princes End in my constituency traders can carry on. I represent an area that has a to Aberdeen, Broadland, Harrogate—even Doncaster, significant manufacturing and advanced engineering Madam Deputy Speaker.They have an impact on everyone. base. We want to be sure that our manufacturers and We talk about the importance of these resolutions engineers can still have access to those markets, that it and why we must get them through, and that is about can be done in the right way and that they know where ensuring that ultimately, as we move forward, we can they are and where they stand. operate a tax system that is efficient and that can carry I completely stand with the Government in their on and that, as we look forward to 2021, as life goes on commitment to ensuring that we get there, but, as right beyond these debates that have plagued us now for four hon. and hon. Members have said, it is a historical fact, and a half years and as we finally respect the decision which we know from previous negotiations such as that was taken by 70% of my constituents in 2016, we these, that they go to the eleventh hour, and political can do so in an efficient way that works for everyone. I bluster and back and forth often characterises them. I will be supporting these resolutions today,and I commend am absolutely behind the Government in their attempts my right hon. Friend the Minister for bringing them to ensure that we get that deal, because my manufacturers forward. and my businesses need it. 5.8 pm Coming back to the point on VAT, which has been Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): I add raised consistently throughout this debate, we have seen my comments to those of my hon. Friend the Member the impact of the covid-19 pandemic, and let us just for for West Bromwich West (Shaun Bailey), with his optimistic a moment remember what we are talking about with tone. I, too, am optimistic about the future; despite the these motions. We are talking about real people. We are fact that I have never looked at Brexit through rose-tinted talking about their livelihoods. We are talking about spectacles, I have never argued that this country cannot how they provide for their families. succeed economically outside the European Union. I It might seem quite abstract when we talk about ways welcome some of the measures in this proposed Bill, and means resolutions and what they mean, because at particularly on creating a fairer and more level playing their heart is the technical and administrative way in field for our small and medium-sized enterprises—I which revenue is raised. They are very technical motions, draw the House’s attention to my entry in the Register and I do not think they are going to garner a wide of Members’ Financial Interests. audience at five minutes past 5 in the afternoon—although Before talking about that, however, I would like to we never know; some of the speeches today have certainly talk about the national interest. I think it was Churchill garnered some interest. However, at the core, this is who said that in our parliamentary duties we should put about those individuals we are here to represent, about country first, constituency second and party third, yet those families, and about ensuring that businesses, all I have heard from the Opposition and the SNP today particularly on our high streets—as right hon. and hon. is putting their party interests first. Members who have spoken to these motions have stated— are able to carry on. As we come through this period Alison Thewliss: What the hon. Gentleman is missing into next year, it will be vital to ensure that we can is that we have a different definition of nation, and our have communities that thrive again and that we get interpretation of Scotland’s national interest is quite beyond this. different from the UK’s national interest that he sees. 791 Taxation (Post-transition Period) 8 DECEMBER 2020 Taxation (Post-transition Period) 792 (Ways and Means) (Ways and Means) Kevin Hollinrake: I have heard quite a lot the argument Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South) (SNP): Of course, it that Scotland did not vote to leave the European Union, was the United Kingdom Government who were but that is not how the votes were added up. This was a threatening to break international law. Does he have national, United Kingdom vote. Those were the terms any similar examples from the European Union, or is it of the referendum, which were voted for in this House. simply a one-way street as far as he is concerned? That is how the entire nation voted, and we are leaving the European Union. Some of us will be less happy Kevin Hollinrake: The hon. Member makes a fair about that than others, but nevertheless, that is what we point, but I would point him back to the political are instructed to do and what we should do. declaration, which sat alongside the withdrawal agreement, within which there were clear commitments from the For the Opposition, the hon. Member for Houghton European Union to agree an ambitious free trade and Sunderland South (Bridget Phillipson) said time agreement. He must accept, as commentators on that and again that the Government were irresponsible in side of the fence—on the Opposition Benches—have these negotiations. Can I just remind her that there are also said, that it is clear the European Union has been two sides to this negotiation? There are two sides, and I difficult in these negotiations, and more difficult than would ask which side she is on, because she is not perhaps many had anticipated. It is clearly in the European representing the national interests in the way she is Union’s interests and their constituents’ interests to agree discussing these matters and blaming the Government a free trade deal without this kind of last-minute drama. for being in this position at this stage. Of course—and I am in business today—every business in this land would Shaun Bailey: On that point, I am sure my hon. have liked the situation to be done and dusted last June, Friend will, like me, have seen in the press German car as we had hoped. However, there are two sides to this manufacturers begging the German Government and negotiation, and it has to be said that the European saying, “We’ve got to get this done. The European Union has been difficult in these negotiations. Union has got to get it done.” Equally, French fishermen If the hon. Lady does not believe my words about have been doing the same with President Macron. Surely that, she should listen to one of the most reliable our European cousins and partners get this—that it is a commentators on her Benches, the right hon. Member bilateral thing that the European Union needs to do—but for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn), in his speech on why do the Opposition seem not to get that? Perhaps he 14 September. He was talking about the United Kingdom could enlighten me. Internal Market Bill, and he said that “I have to say that I have some sympathy with the Government’s Kevin Hollinrake: Of course, the European Union is argument: exit summary declarations should not be required for negotiating in its interests and is obviously trying to goods moving from Northern Ireland to GB. When Wrightbus protect its interests in that negotiation, but one thing sells one of its wonderful buses to a transport operator in the UK, the European Union has done much better than we why is the form needed and what is the EU going to do with the have on this side of the channel is negotiate with one voice. form?” In this place, we have not—we absolutely have not—and On goods at risk, he said that that has undermined the UK’s negotiating position. If the Opposition think that the European Union does not “surely it is possible to reach a pragmatic solution, because a lorry load of goods destined for a supermarket in Belfast can hardly be hear what this place says, that is clearly a naive position. described as being at risk of entering the European Union.”—[Official If the Opposition think that the European Union does Report, 14 September 2020; Vol. 680, c. 64.] not hear what this place says, that is clearly a naive position. I would argue, at this very late stage, that we Yet those are some of the matters that the European work together, cross-party, to try to bring about a Union was negotiating on or on which it was trying to situation where we can get the free trade agreement that negotiate hardball. we all know is possible and can be delivered within the I ask again: who does the hon. Lady think, and who timescale we have left. does the hon. Member for Glasgow Central (Alison Thewliss) for the SNP think, is being difficult in this Alison Thewliss: The hon. Gentleman is making an negotiation? Is it purely the United Kingdom? Of course interesting point about working cross-party. We entered it is not. Why are there no words of criticism for the into this in the spirit of cross-party working. The Scottish European Union’s position and for leaving it this late Government put forward constructive proposals on before agreeing what should be a simple trade deal to cross-party working that the UK Government rejected. arrange and negotiate? It has negotiated similar trade For a long time during this process, it has been his own deals with many other countries around the world, and party that has been undermining his Government’s we start from a similar position with our regulations negotiating position. Does he not accept that that has and customs duties. been part of the problem?

Kevin Hollinrake: No, I do not. The UK Government James Cartlidge (South Suffolk) (Con): Identical. have to take a number of matters into consideration. They have a collective position. Clearly, we cannot always get Kevin Hollinrake: From an identical position. This exactly what we want in terms of negotiation. My point should have been an easy trade negotiation, but of is that we could have done better in these negotiations course it is not, for the reasons that we know. Of course, and there could have been less drama around them. The there is politics behind this negotiation, and the politics fact that these negotiations are concluding so close to in this place should be united on one side, in the UK’s the deadline for businesses has been brought about national interests, but they are not. Too often, Opposition partly because of the divided nature of this Parliament. Members have represented the European Union’s The hon. Lady and the Opposition should take negotiating position in these negotiations. responsibility for that position. 793 Taxation (Post-transition Period) 8 DECEMBER 2020 Taxation (Post-transition Period) 794 (Ways and Means) (Ways and Means) My point about a fair and level playing field is about 5.19 pm the fact that many of our small businesses in the UK Jesse Norman: This has been a very wide-ranging and compete with online platforms—online marketplaces, interesting debate, and we have heard some diverse voices. as they are called—such as Amazon and eBay. How can I was particularly interested, as I am sure the House it be right that for so long many of those small businesses was, to see the knights of Maastricht swinging a leg as have been competing at a 20% disadvantage? Many they get into the saddle once more and go into battle— retailers selling into the UK are not paying VAT on always an interesting sight. I thank the hon. Member those sales. I am pleased that the Government have for Houghton and Sunderland South (Bridget Phillipson) acted on this and closed the loophole. They have closed and my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton a number of loopholes in recent years through measures (Kevin Hollinrake) for reminding us that this is a complex such as the digital services tax and the diverted profits and difficult process. It is not straightforward to negotiate tax. This creates the fairer and more level playing field with another party at the same time as seeking to make for the rest that I very much welcome. There is one more legislation, and we recognise that. loophole that we could close, not in this legislation, but in the Financial Services Bill, which is going through I want to quickly pick up on a couple of the points Parliament at the same time. that arose in the debate. I rather differ from my hon. Country-by-country reporting would also have a Friend the Member for Stone (Sir William Cash) in profound effect in closing loopholes that some companies thinking of this as the most important constitutional are using to divert profits out of this country. moment since 1688. I might respectfully offer the Act of Union 1707 or even the Act of Union 1801 as possible Jerome Mayhew (Broadland) (Con): The Government alternatives. are making an important point in this Bill in starting to Imagination in tax is of great interest to the Treasury, look at online retailers facilitating the sale and that is but that must come after the transition period has ended making a difference, particularly with international trade. and we have regained this full measure of sovereignty. Does my hon. Friend agree that this should be expanded That is the moment to think about these issues in the beyond just VAT into things like the extent of producer wide way that my right hon. Friend the Member for responsibility and other aspects of international trade? Wokingham (John Redwood) described. This is a technical matter of putting into place the requirements for us to Kevin Hollinrake: Yes, I do. We all know that the best leave in as orderly a way as possible. way of driving down prices and driving service for our consumers—our citizens—is through a free, competitive The right hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy marketplace. Our job, wherever we can, is to let that Wilson), on classically robust form, rightly highlighted marketplace do its work. Our job is also to make sure the lack of balance in this debate relating to the European that it sits on a fair and level playing field. My hon. Union, and I thank him for that. I remind the hon. Friend, in talking about regulation for some of the Members for Glasgow Central (Alison Thewliss) and retailers—some of the UK businesses but not businesses for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey (Drew abroad—makes a very sound point that the Government Hendry) that the rules as they stand were that all goods should consider. going into Northern Ireland were to be considered at risk. The “notwithstanding” clauses were designed to Going back to country-by-country reporting, let me protect us against that transparently absurd outcome, give an example. Google’s turnover in the UK is about which would have had the effect that a bag of salad £10 billion. We can work that out by extrapolating certain brought in for sale in a Northern Ireland supermarket figures from a couple of years ago. Internationally, it was considered an at-risk good and was therefore treated declared a 22% profit margin, which means a £2.2 billion on that basis. That cannot be right. In advancing the profit in the UK. Based on corporation tax at 19%, it “notwithstanding”clauses, the Government were seeking should pay £420 million in tax on that. Last year a perfectly sensible and proper readjustment to the it actually paid £67 million in tax. That cannot be a fair situation. I am delighted that those clauses have been and level playing field for other UK retailers or other withdrawn, and with that good message, I commend UK companies that compete against Google, particularly these motions to the House. in terms of advertising space—many of our regional papers, for example. I would like the Government to Question put, That the amendment be made. bring forward legislation, in some vehicle or other, to The House divided: Ayes 264, Noes 360. tackle that issue. Division No. 180] [5.22 pm I am very pleased that this loophole is being closed and I very much commend the principles and the outline AYES of the legislation that we will see tomorrow. Abbott, rh Ms Diane Benn, rh Hilary Abrahams, Debbie Betts, Mr Clive 5.18 pm Ali, Rushanara Black, Mhairi Bridget Phillipson: It is extraordinary that we have Ali, Tahir Blackford, rh Ian not yet had sight of the Bill and that all we have is a Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Blackman, Kirsty single sheet of A4, just 23 days until the end of the Amesbury, Mike Blake, Olivia transition period. The Minister did not offer much this Anderson, Fleur Blomfield, Paul afternoon other than to merely say he regarded Opposition Antoniazzi, Tonia Bonnar, Steven amendment (a) as unnecessary. I regret that our trust in Ashworth, Jonathan Brabin, Tracy the Government’s promises and assurances has run Bardell, Hannah Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben rather thin this autumn. In the absence of the publication Barker, Paula Brennan, Kevin of formal texts, I have not been persuaded by the Beckett, rh Margaret Brock, Deidre Minister’s arguments this afternoon. Begum, Apsana Brown, Alan 795 Taxation (Post-transition Period) 8 DECEMBER 2020 Taxation (Post-transition Period) 796 (Ways and Means) (Ways and Means) Brown, Ms Lyn Gray, Neil McGovern, Alison Sharma, Mr Virendra Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Green, Kate McKinnell, Catherine Sheerman, Mr Barry Buck, Ms Karen Greenwood, Lilian McLaughlin, Anne Sheppard, Tommy Burgon, Richard Greenwood, Margaret McMahon, Jim Siddiq, Tulip Butler, Dawn Griffith, Nia McMorrin, Anna Slaughter, Andy Byrne, Ian Gwynne, Andrew Mearns, Ian Smith, Alyn Byrne, rh Liam Haigh, Louise Miliband, rh Edward Smith, Cat Cadbury, Ruth Hamilton, Fabian Mishra, Navendu Smith, Nick Callaghan, Amy Hanna, Claire Monaghan, Carol Smyth, Karin Cameron, Dr Lisa Hanvey, Neale Moran, Layla Sobel, Alex Campbell, rh Sir Alan Hardy, Emma Morden, Jessica Spellar, rh John Carden, Dan Harman, rh Ms Harriet Morgan, Stephen Starmer, rh Keir Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Harris, Carolyn Morris, Grahame Stephens, Chris Chamberlain, Wendy Hayes, Helen Murray, Ian Stevens, Jo Champion, Sarah Healey, rh John Murray, James Stone, Jamie Chapman, Douglas Hendrick, Sir Mark Nandy, Lisa Streeting, Wes Charalambous, Bambos Hendry, Drew Newlands, Gavin Sultana, Zarah Cherry, Joanna Hill, Mike Nichols, Charlotte Tami, rh Mark Clark, Feryal Hillier, Meg Nicolson, John Tarry, Sam Cooper, Daisy Hobhouse, Wera Norris, Alex Thewliss, Alison Cooper, Rosie Hodge, rh Dame Margaret O’Hara, Brendan Thomas, Gareth Cooper, rh Yvette Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Olney, Sarah Thomas-Symonds, Nick Corbyn, rh Jeremy Hollern, Kate Onwurah, Chi Thompson, Owen Cowan, Ronnie Hopkins, Rachel Oppong-Asare, Abena Thomson, Richard Coyle, Neil Hosie, Stewart Osamor, Kate Thornberry, rh Emily Crawley, Angela Howarth, rh Sir George Osborne, Kate Creasy, Stella Huq, Dr Rupa Oswald, Kirsten Timms, rh Stephen Cruddas, Jon Hussain, Imran Owatemi, Taiwo Trickett, Jon Cryer, John Jardine, Christine Owen, Sarah Turner, Karl Cummins, Judith Jarvis, Dan Peacock, Stephanie Twigg, Derek Cunningham, Alex Johnson, Dame Diana Pennycook, Matthew Twist, Liz Daby, Janet Johnson, Kim Perkins, Mr Toby Vaz, rh Valerie Davey, rh Ed Jones, Darren Phillips, Jess Webbe, Claudia David, Wayne Jones, Gerald Phillipson, Bridget West, Catherine Davies, Geraint Jones, rh Mr Kevan Pollard, Luke Western, Matt Davies-Jones, Alex Jones, Ruth Powell, Lucy Whitehead, Dr Alan Day, Martyn Jones, Sarah Qureshi, Yasmin Whitford, Dr Philippa De Cordova, Marsha Kane, Mike Rayner, Angela Whitley, Mick Debbonaire, Thangam Keeley, Barbara Reed, Steve Whittome, Nadia Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Kendall, Liz Rees, Christina Williams, Hywel Docherty-Hughes, Martin Khan, Afzal Reeves, Ellie Wilson, Munira Dodds, Anneliese Kinnock, Stephen Reeves, Rachel Winter, Beth Doogan, Dave Kyle, Peter Reynolds, Jonathan Wishart, Pete Dorans, Allan Lake, Ben Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Yasin, Mohammad Doughty, Stephen Lammy, rh Mr David Rimmer, Ms Marie Zeichner, Daniel Dowd, Peter Lavery, Ian Rodda, Matt Dromey, Jack Law, Chris Russell-Moyle, Lloyd Tellers for the Ayes: Duffield, Rosie Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Saville Roberts, rh Liz Gill Furniss and Eagle, Ms Angela Lewis, Clive Shah, Naz Jeff Smith Eagle, Maria Linden, David Eastwood, Colum Lloyd, Tony NOES Edwards, Jonathan Long Bailey, Rebecca Elliott, Julie Lucas, Caroline Adams, Nigel Baker, Duncan Elmore, Chris Lynch, Holly Afolami, Bim Baker, Mr Steve Eshalomi, Florence MacAskill, Kenny Afriyie, Adam Baldwin, Harriett Esterson, Bill MacNeil, Angus Brendan Ahmad Khan, Imran Barclay, rh Steve Evans, Chris Madders, Justin Aiken, Nickie Baron, Mr John Farron, Tim Mahmood, Mr Khalid Aldous, Peter Baynes, Simon Farry, Stephen Mahmood, Shabana Allan, Lucy Bell, Aaron Fellows, Marion Malhotra, Seema Amess, Sir David Benton, Scott Ferrier, Margaret Maskell, Rachael Anderson, Lee Beresford, Sir Paul Fletcher, Colleen Matheson, Christian Anderson, Stuart Berry, rh Jake Flynn, Stephen Mc Nally, John Andrew, Stuart Bhatti, Saqib Fovargue, Yvonne McCabe, Steve Ansell, Caroline Blackman, Bob Foxcroft, Vicky McCarthy, Kerry Argar, Edward Blunt, Crispin Foy, Mary Kelly McDonagh, Siobhain Atherton, Sarah Bone, Mr Peter Gardiner, Barry McDonald, Andy Atkins, Victoria Bottomley, Sir Peter Gibson, Patricia McDonald, Stewart Malcolm Bacon, Gareth Bowie, Andrew Gill, Preet Kaur McDonald, Stuart C. Bacon, Mr Richard Bradley, Ben Glindon, Mary McDonnell, rh John Badenoch, Kemi Bradley, rh Karen Grady, Patrick McFadden, rh Mr Pat Bailey, Shaun Brady, Sir Graham Grant, Peter McGinn, Conor Baillie, Siobhan Braverman, rh Suella 797 Taxation (Post-transition Period) 8 DECEMBER 2020 Taxation (Post-transition Period) 798 (Ways and Means) (Ways and Means) Brereton, Jack Farris, Laura Johnson, rh Boris Nokes, rh Caroline Bridgen, Andrew Fell, Simon Johnson, Dr Caroline Norman, rh Jesse Brine, Steve Fletcher, Katherine Johnson, Gareth O’Brien, Neil Britcliffe, Sara Fletcher, Mark Johnston, David Offord, Dr Matthew Brokenshire, rh James Fletcher, Nick Jones, Andrew Opperman, Guy Browne, Anthony Ford, Vicky Jones, rh Mr David Paisley, Ian Bruce, Fiona Foster, Kevin Jones, Fay Parish, Neil Buchan, Felicity Fox, rh Dr Liam Jones, Mr Marcus Patel, rh Priti Burghart, Alex Francois, rh Mr Mark Jupp, Simon Paterson, rh Mr Owen Burns, rh Conor Frazer, Lucy Kawczynski, Daniel Pawsey, Mark Butler, Rob Freeman, George Kearns, Alicia Penning, rh Sir Mike Cairns, rh Alun Freer, Mike Keegan, Gillian Penrose, John Campbell, Mr Gregory Fuller, Richard Knight, rh Sir Greg Percy, Andrew Carter, Andy Fysh, Mr Marcus Knight, Julian Philp, Chris Cartlidge, James Gale, rh Sir Roger Kruger, Danny Pincher, rh Christopher Cash, Sir William Garnier, Mark Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Poulter, Dr Dan Cates, Miriam Ghani, Ms Nusrat Lamont, John Pow, Rebecca Caulfield, Maria Gibb, rh Nick Largan, Robert Prentis, Victoria Chalk, Alex Gibson, Peter Latham, Mrs Pauline Pritchard, Mark Chishti, Rehman Gideon, Jo Leadsom, rh Andrea Pursglove, Tom Churchill, Jo Gillan, rh Dame Cheryl Leigh, rh Sir Edward Quin, Jeremy Clark, rh Greg Girvan, Paul Levy, Ian Quince, Will Clarke, Mr Simon Glen, John Lewer, Andrew Raab, rh Dominic Clarke, Theo Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Lewis, rh Brandon Randall, Tom Clarke-Smith, Brendan Gove, rh Michael Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Redwood, rh John Clarkson, Chris Graham, Richard Lockhart, Carla Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Cleverly, rh James Grant, Mrs Helen Loder, Chris Richards, Nicola Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Grayling, rh Chris Logan, Mark Richardson, Angela Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Green, Chris Longhi, Marco Roberts, Rob Colburn, Elliot Green, rh Damian Lopez, Julia Robertson, Mr Laurence Collins, Damian Griffith, Andrew Lopresti, Jack Robinson, Gavin Costa, Alberto Griffiths, Kate Lord, Mr Jonathan Robinson, Mary Courts, Robert Grundy, James Loughton, Tim Rosindell, Andrew Coutinho, Claire Gullis, Jonathan Mackinlay, Craig Ross, Douglas Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Halfon, rh Robert Mackrory, Cherilyn Rowley, Lee Crabb, rh Stephen Hall, Luke Maclean, Rachel Russell, Dean Crosbie, Virginia Hammond, Stephen Mak, Alan Sambrook, Gary Crouch, Tracey Hancock, rh Matt Malthouse, Kit Saxby, Selaine Daly, James Hands, rh Greg Mangnall, Anthony Scully, Paul Davies, David T. C. Harper, rh Mr Mark Mann, Scott Seely, Bob Davies, Gareth Harris, Rebecca Marson, Julie Selous, Andrew Davies, Dr James Hart, Sally-Ann Mayhew, Jerome Shannon, Jim Davies, Mims Hart, rh Simon Maynard, Paul Shapps, rh Grant Davies, Philip Hayes, rh Sir John McCartney, Jason Sharma, rh Alok Davis, rh Mr David Heald, rh Sir Oliver McCartney, Karl Shelbrooke, rh Alec Davison, Dehenna Heappey, James McPartland, Stephen Simmonds, David Dinenage, Caroline Heaton-Harris, Chris McVey, rh Esther Skidmore, rh Chris Dines, Miss Sarah Henderson, Gordon Menzies, Mark Smith, Chloe Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Henry, Darren Mercer, Johnny Smith, Greg Docherty, Leo Higginbotham, Antony Merriman, Huw Smith, Henry Donaldson, rh Sir Jeffrey M. Hinds, rh Damian Metcalfe, Stephen Smith, Royston Donelan, Michelle Hoare, Simon Millar, Robin Solloway, Amanda Dorries, Ms Nadine Holden, Mr Richard Miller, rh Mrs Maria Spencer, Dr Ben Double, Steve Hollinrake, Kevin Milling, rh Amanda Spencer, rh Mark Dowden, rh Oliver Hollobone, Mr Philip Mills, Nigel Stafford, Alexander Doyle-Price, Jackie Holloway, Adam Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stephenson, Andrew Drax, Richard Holmes, Paul Mohindra, Mr Gagan Stevenson, Jane Drummond, Mrs Flick Howell, John Moore, Damien Stevenson, John Duddridge, James Howell, Paul Moore, Robbie Stewart, Bob Duguid, David Huddleston, Nigel Mordaunt, rh Penny Stewart, Iain Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Hudson, Dr Neil Morris, Anne Marie Streeter, Sir Gary Dunne, rh Philip Hughes, Eddie Morris, David Stride, rh Mel Eastwood, Mark Hunt, Jane Morris, James Stuart, Graham Edwards, Ruth Hunt, rh Jeremy Morrissey, Joy Sturdy, Julian Ellis, rh Michael Hunt, Tom Morton, Wendy Sunderland, James Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Jack, rh Mr Alister Mullan, Dr Kieran Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Javid, rh Sajid Mumby-Croft, Holly Thomas, Derek Eustice, rh George Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Mundell, rh David Timpson, Edward Evans, Dr Luke Jenkin, Sir Bernard Murray, Mrs Sheryll Tolhurst, Kelly Evennett, rh Sir David Jenkinson, Mark Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Tomlinson, Justin Everitt, Ben Jenkyns, Andrea Neill, Sir Robert Tomlinson, Michael Fabricant, Michael Jenrick, rh Robert Nici, Lia Tracey, Craig 799 Taxation (Post-transition Period) 8 DECEMBER 2020 800 (Ways and Means) Trevelyan, rh Anne-Marie Whately, Helen INSURANCE PREMIUM TAX (LIABILITY OF Trott, Laura Wheeler, Mrs Heather INSURED) (WAYS AND MEANS) Truss, rh Elizabeth Whittaker, Craig Tugendhat, Tom Whittingdale, rh Mr John Resolved, Vara, Mr Shailesh Wiggin, Bill That provision may be made amending section 65 of the Vickers, Martin Wild, James Finance Act 1994. Vickers, Matt Williams, Craig Villiers, rh Theresa Williamson, rh Gavin CONTROLLED FOREIGN COMPANIES Wakeford, Christian Wilson, rh Sammy (RECOVERY OF UNLAWFUL STATE AID) (WAYS Walker, Sir Charles Wood, Mike Walker, Mr Robin Wragg, Mr William AND MEANS) Wallace, rh Mr Ben Wright, rh Jeremy Resolved, Wallis, Dr Jamie Young, Jacob That provision may be made in connection with Commission Warburton, David Zahawi, Nadhim Decision (EU) 2019/1352 of 2 April 2019 on the state aid SA.44896 Warman, Matt Tellers for the Noes: implemented by the United Kingdom concerning the CFC Group Watling, Giles Maggie Throup and Financing Exemption. Webb, Suzanne David Rutley Ordered, That a Bill be brought in on the foregoing Resolutions; Question accordingly negatived. That the Chairman of Ways and Means, the Prime The list of Members currently certified as eligible for a Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Secretary proxy vote, and of the Members nominated as their Alok Sharma, Michael Gove, Steve Barclay,Jesse Norman, proxy, is published at the end of today’s debates. John Glen and Kemi Badenoch introduce the Bill. Main Question put and agreed to. TAXATION (POST-TRANSITION PERIOD)BILL Resolved, Presentation and First Reading That provision (including provision imposing and Jesse Norman accordingly presented a Bill to make regulating new duties of customs) may be made in provision (including the imposition and regulation of connection with goods in Northern Ireland and their new duties of customs) in connection with goods in movement into and out of Northern Ireland (whether Northern Ireland and their movement into or out of the movement begins or ends in Great Britain or elsewhere). Northern Ireland; to make provision amending certain enactments relating to value added tax, excise duty or insurance premium tax; to make provision in connection VALUE ADDED TAX (ERICS ETC) with the recovery of unlawful state aid in relation to (WAYS AND MEANS) controlled foreign companies; and for connected purposes. Resolved, Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time That provision may be made— tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 227). (a) about European Research Infrastructure Consortia in connection with value added tax, BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (b) amending section 9A of the Value Added Tax Act 1994 and Part 3 of the Value Added Tax (Place of Supply of Goods) Ordered, Order 2004 (supplies of gas, electricity, heating and cooling), That notices of Amendments, new Clauses and new Schedules (c) for and in connection with the repeal of Schedule 4B to that to be moved in Committee in respect of the Taxation (Post-transition Act (call-off stock arrangements), Period) Bill may be accepted by the Clerks at the Table before it has been read a second time.—(Rebecca Harris.) (d) amending section 18A of that Act (fiscal warehousing), and Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): As (e) amending paragraph 114(2) of Schedule 8 to the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act 2018. the House has just agreed, amendments and new clauses to be moved in Committee of the Whole of House may now be tabled. Hon. Members should table through the Public Bill Office inbox, which is [email protected]. RATE OF FUEL DUTY ON AVIATION They should not attempt to hand in amendments and GASOLINE (WAYS AND MEANS) new clauses to the Table in the Chamber due to the Resolved, current situation of the pandemic. That provision may be made amending section 6(1A)(aa) of the Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1979. Business without Debate

VALUE ADDED TAX (ONLINE SALES BY DELEGATED LEGISLATION OVERSEAS PERSONS AND LOW VALUE Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing IMPORTATIONS) (WAYS AND MEANS) Order No. 118(6) and Order, 26 November, Resolved, FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE TO INDUSTRY That provision may be made for the purposes of value added tax in cases involving— That this House authorises the Secretary of State to undertake to pay, and to pay by way of financial assistance under section 8 (a) supplies of goods by persons established outside the United of the Industrial Development Act 1982, sums exceeding £30 million Kingdom that are facilitated by online marketplaces, or and up to a total of £300 million in respect of compensation for (b) the importation into the United Kingdom of goods of a indirect costs of the UK Emissions Trading System or the Carbon low value. Emissions Tax and Carbon Price Support mechanism in each 801 Business without Debate8 DECEMBER 2020 Business without Debate 802 case to British Steel Ltd; Celsa Manufacturing (UK) Ltd; CF Freer, Mike Kearns, Alicia Fertilisers UK Ltd; DS Smith Paper Ltd; INEOS Chemical Fuller, Richard Keegan, Gillian Grangemouth Ltd; INEOS ChlorVinyls Ltd; Kimberly Clark Fysh, Mr Marcus Knight, rh Sir Greg Ltd; Outokumpu Stainless Ltd; Palm Paper Ltd; Runcorn MCP Gale, rh Sir Roger Knight, Julian Ltd; SABIC UK Petrochemicals Ltd; Tata Steel UK Ltd; and Garnier, Mark Kruger, Danny UPM-Kymmene (UK) Ltd.—(Rebecca Harris.) Ghani, Ms Nusrat Kwarteng, rh Kwasi The House divided: Ayes 360, Noes 16. Gibb, rh Nick Lamont, John Gibson, Peter Largan, Robert Division No. 181] [5.40 pm Gideon, Jo Latham, Mrs Pauline Gillan, rh Dame Cheryl Leadsom, rh Andrea AYES Girvan, Paul Leigh, rh Sir Edward Adams, Nigel Churchill, Jo Glen, John Levy, Ian Afolami, Bim Clark, rh Greg Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Lewer, Andrew Afriyie, Adam Clarke, Mr Simon Gove, rh Michael Lewis, rh Brandon Ahmad Khan, Imran Clarke, Theo Graham, Richard Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Aiken, Nickie Clarke-Smith, Brendan Grant, Mrs Helen Lockhart, Carla Aldous, Peter Clarkson, Chris Grayling, rh Chris Loder, Chris Allan, Lucy Cleverly, rh James Green, Chris Logan, Mark Amess, Sir David Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Green, rh Damian Longhi, Marco Anderson, Lee Colburn, Elliot Griffith, Andrew Lopez, Julia Anderson, Stuart Collins, Damian Griffiths, Kate Lopresti, Jack Andrew, Stuart Costa, Alberto Grundy, James Lord, Mr Jonathan Ansell, Caroline Courts, Robert Gullis, Jonathan Loughton, Tim Argar, Edward Coutinho, Claire Halfon, rh Robert Mackinlay, Craig Atherton, Sarah Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Hall, Luke Mackrory, Cherilyn Atkins, Victoria Crosbie, Virginia Hammond, Stephen Maclean, Rachel Bacon, Gareth Crouch, Tracey Hancock, rh Matt Mak, Alan Bacon, Mr Richard Daly, James Hands, rh Greg Malthouse, Kit Badenoch, Kemi Davies, David T. C. Harper, rh Mr Mark Mangnall, Anthony Bailey, Shaun Davies, Gareth Harris, Rebecca Mann, Scott Baillie, Siobhan Davies, Dr James Harrison, Trudy Marson, Julie Baker, Duncan Davies, Mims Hart, Sally-Ann May, rh Mrs Theresa Baker, Mr Steve Davies, Philip Hart, rh Simon Mayhew, Jerome Baldwin, Harriett Davis, rh Mr David Hayes, rh Sir John Maynard, Paul Barclay, rh Steve Davison, Dehenna Heald, rh Sir Oliver McCartney, Jason Baron, Mr John Dinenage, Caroline Heappey, James McCartney, Karl Baynes, Simon Dines, Miss Sarah Heaton-Harris, Chris McPartland, Stephen Bell, Aaron Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Henderson, Gordon McVey, rh Esther Benton, Scott Docherty, Leo Henry, Darren Menzies, Mark Beresford, Sir Paul Donaldson, rh Sir Jeffrey M. Higginbotham, Antony Mercer, Johnny Berry, rh Jake Donelan, Michelle Hinds, rh Damian Merriman, Huw Bhatti, Saqib Dorries, Ms Nadine Hoare, Simon Metcalfe, Stephen Blackman, Bob Double, Steve Holden, Mr Richard Millar, Robin Blunt, Crispin Dowden, rh Oliver Hollinrake, Kevin Miller, rh Mrs Maria Bone, Mr Peter Doyle-Price, Jackie Hollobone, Mr Philip Milling, rh Amanda Bottomley, Sir Peter Drax, Richard Holloway, Adam Mills, Nigel Bowie, Andrew Drummond, Mrs Flick Holmes, Paul Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Bradley, Ben Duddridge, James Howell, John Mohindra, Mr Gagan Bradley, rh Karen Duguid, David Howell, Paul Moore, Damien Brady, Sir Graham Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Huddleston, Nigel Moore, Robbie Braverman, rh Suella Dunne, rh Philip Hudson, Dr Neil Mordaunt, rh Penny Brereton, Jack Eastwood, Mark Hughes, Eddie Morris, Anne Marie Bridgen, Andrew Edwards, Ruth Hunt, Jane Morris, David Brine, Steve Ellis, rh Michael Hunt, rh Jeremy Morris, James Bristow, Paul Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Hunt, Tom Morrissey, Joy Britcliffe, Sara Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Jack, rh Mr Alister Morton, Wendy Brokenshire, rh James Eustice, rh George Javid, rh Sajid Mullan, Dr Kieran Browne, Anthony Evans, Dr Luke Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Mumby-Croft, Holly Bruce, Fiona Evennett, rh Sir David Jenkin, Sir Bernard Mundell, rh David Buchan, Felicity Everitt, Ben Jenkinson, Mark Murray, Mrs Sheryll Burghart, Alex Fabricant, Michael Jenkyns, Andrea Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Burns, rh Conor Farris, Laura Jenrick, rh Robert Neill, Sir Robert Butler, Rob Fell, Simon Johnson, rh Boris Nici, Lia Cairns, rh Alun Fletcher, Katherine Johnson, Dr Caroline Nokes, rh Caroline Campbell, Mr Gregory Fletcher, Mark Johnson, Gareth Norman, rh Jesse Carter, Andy Fletcher, Nick Johnston, David O’Brien, Neil Cartlidge, James Ford, Vicky Jones, Andrew Offord, Dr Matthew Cash, Sir William Foster, Kevin Jones, rh Mr David Opperman, Guy Cates, Miriam Fox, rh Dr Liam Jones, Fay Paisley, Ian Caulfield, Maria Francois, rh Mr Mark Jones, Mr Marcus Parish, Neil Chalk, Alex Frazer, Lucy Jupp, Simon Patel, rh Priti Chishti, Rehman Freeman, George Kawczynski, Daniel Paterson, rh Mr Owen 803 Business without Debate8 DECEMBER 2020 Business without Debate 804

Pawsey, Mark Stewart, Bob EXITING THE EUROPEAN UNION (SOCIAL SECURITY) Penning, rh Sir Mike Stewart, Iain That the draft Social Security Co-ordination (Revocation of Penrose, John Streeter, Sir Gary Retained Direct EU Legislation and Related Amendments) (EU Exit) Percy, Andrew Stride, rh Mel Regulations 2020, which were laid before this House on 16 November, Philp, Chris Stuart, Graham be approved.—(Rebecca Harris.) Pincher, rh Christopher Sturdy, Julian Poulter, Dr Dan Sunderland, James EXCISE Pow, Rebecca Swayne, rh Sir Desmond That the Tobacco Products Duty (Alteration of Rates) Order Prentis, Victoria Thomas, Derek 2020 (S.I., 2020, No. 1256), dated 12 November 2020, a copy of Pritchard, Mark Timpson, Edward which was laid before this House on 12 November, be approved.— Pursglove, Tom Tolhurst, Kelly (Rebecca Harris.) Quin, Jeremy Tomlinson, Justin Quince, Will Tomlinson, Michael PUBLIC HEALTH Raab, rh Dominic Tracey, Craig That the Public Health (Coronavirus) (Protection from Eviction Randall, Tom Trevelyan, rh Anne-Marie and Taking Control of Goods) (England) Regulations 2020 (S.I., 2020, Redwood, rh John Trott, Laura No. 1290), dated 13 November 2020, a copy of which was laid Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Truss, rh Elizabeth before this House on 16 November,be approved.—(Rebecca Harris.) Richards, Nicola Tugendhat, Tom Richardson, Angela Vara, Mr Shailesh Question agreed to. Roberts, Rob Vickers, Martin Robertson, Mr Laurence Vickers, Matt PETITIONS Robinson, Gavin Villiers, rh Theresa Robinson, Mary Wakeford, Christian Waste Incinerator on Portland Rosindell, Andrew Walker, Sir Charles Ross, Douglas Walker, Mr Robin 5.52 pm Rowley, Lee Wallace, rh Mr Ben Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): I hand in a Russell, Dean Wallis, Dr Jamie petition with nearly 7,000 signatures from those who Sambrook, Gary Warburton, David wish to stop an incinerator plant being built on the Saxby, Selaine Warman, Matt beautiful island of Portland in my constituency. Those Scully, Paul Watling, Giles Seely, Bob Webb, Suzanne who want to build it call it an energy recovery facility. Selous, Andrew Whately, Helen Thousands of people disagree with that interpretation Shannon, Jim Wheeler, Mrs Heather and say that it is a waste incinerator, and they do not Shapps, rh Grant Whittaker, Craig want it on their island. Sharma, rh Alok Whittingdale, rh Mr John Following is the full text of the petition: Shelbrooke, rh Alec Wiggin, Bill [The petition of residents of the constituency of South Simmonds, David Wild, James Dorset, Skidmore, rh Chris Williams, Craig Smith, Chloe Williamson, rh Gavin Declares that the proposal to build a waste incinerator Smith, Greg Wilson, rh Sammy on Portland should not go ahead and that the Government Smith, Henry Wood, Mike should review its support for incinerators more generally; Smith, Royston Wragg, Mr William notes that almost 7,000 people have signed a corresponding Solloway, Amanda Wright, rh Jeremy online petition to stop the waste incinerator;further declares Spencer, Dr Ben Young, Jacob that South Dorset is a beautiful part of the world and that Spencer, rh Mark Zahawi, Nadhim it should remain a healthy place for our children, grandchildren Stafford, Alexander and ourselves; further that research has shown that a Stephenson, Andrew Tellers for the Ayes: waste incinerator will cause the release of tiny dangerous Stevenson, Jane Maggie Throup and particles into the air; further that a waste incinerator will Stevenson, John David Rutley cause a small increase in health risks for children; further that it will bring more lorries thundering along already NOES busy roads; further that there is a possible need for the Chamberlain, Wendy Lucas, Caroline incinerator to be “fed” in the future by waste imported Cooper, Daisy Moran, Layla from outside the UK; further that it will create a big, Davey, rh Ed Saville Roberts, rh Liz unsightly blot on our beautiful landscape and coast; Edwards, Jonathan Stone, Jamie further that it will discourage recycling; and further that Farron, Tim Williams, Hywel it will not create many jobs for local residents. Farry, Stephen Wilson, Munira Hanna, Claire The petitioners therefore request that the House of Hobhouse, Wera Tellers for the Noes: Commons urge the Government to rethink its support for Jardine, Christine Sarah Olney and incinerators and look towards a greener, circular economy. Lake, Ben Mr Alistair Carmichael And the petitioners remain, etc.] [P002634] Question accordingly agreed to. Drainage Works in Shiplake The list of Members currently certified as eligible for a proxy vote, and of the Members nominated as their 5.53 pm proxy, is published at the end of today’s debates. John Howell (Henley) (Con): I present a petition from residents of my constituency that has now been DELEGATED LEGISLATION supported by over 1,000 signatories. Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing The petition states: Order No. 118(6)), The petition of residents of the constituency of Henley, 805 Business without Debate8 DECEMBER 2020 Business without Debate 806

Declares that there is considerable concern about the increased today. Given that reality, Madam Deputy Speaker, the impact of flooding in the village of Shiplake as a result of the Minister has clearly—inadvertently, I am sure—misled actions being taken by Taylor Wimpey in relation to a development the House and I would be obliged if you would summon at Thames Farm; further declares that the developers are increasing him to apologise for his mistake and to set the record the flood risk by filling in sink holes and injecting these areas with a grout-like substance to reinforce them which makes the chalk straight. less porous; further that the developers are diverting floodwater to a brook in Flood Zone 3 in the village via a new pumping Madam Deputy Speaker: I thank the hon. Gentleman station at the north-eastern corner of the site; and notes that this for his point of order, but he knows very well indeed petition is presented on behalf of two individuals of the village of that the Chair is not responsible for what Members or Shiplake whose corresponding online petition has been signed by indeed Ministers say in this Chamber. I suspect that the some 999 signatories. point that he has just made is not so much a point of The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons order as a continuation of the debate and a matter of urge the Government, in particular the Ministry of Housing, the interpretation of statistics. I am also quite sure that Communities and Local Government, to request South Oxfordshire he has, in raising a point of order, drawn the matter to District Council to ask Taylor Wimpey to submit a Material Variation Application because the change in the drainage solution the attention of the Treasury Bench and to the Minister, is such a major departure from the original approved scheme, and whom I hope he has given notice that he was planning to encourage public consultation as part of the approval of the to mention— drainage works, and to look at the change as a material variation in application. Alex Cunningham indicated dissent. And the petitioners remain, etc. Madam Deputy Speaker: The hon. Gentleman has [P002636] not given notice to the Minister that he intended to mention him. Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. During my Alex Cunningham: Apologies. exchange with the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, the hon. Member for Croydon Madam Deputy Speaker: I note the hon. Gentleman’s South (Chris Philp) across the Dispatch Box during apology for not having done so, and I accept his apology. Justice questions this morning, the Minister claimed I can see by his demeanour that his apology is meant in that the reason for the huge reduction in the number of good faith and that if he had remembered to inform trials in England and Wales between 2010 and 2019 was the Minister, I am sure he would have done. I am also “because crime is significantly down since 2010”. quite sure that the Minister’s colleague on the Front Bench, the Minister for the Middle East and North Recorded crime, which of course drives the amount of Africa, the right hon. Member for Braintree (James court activity and therefore trials, has, according to the Cleverly), will let him know the point that has been Government’s own figures, increased considerably from raised. This is not a matter for the Chair and it is not a 4.3 million in 2010 to about 6 million this year. matter on which I or Mr Speaker can summon the The Minister should not try to hide behind the Office Minister to answer, but I am quite certain that there will for National Statistics crime survey statistics, when the be other opportunities in future debates and question public at large know full well both the reality and sessions when the hon. Gentleman can raise this very consequences of the increased crime in our country matter with the Minister again. 807 8 DECEMBER 2020 Arrest of Egyptian Human Rights 808 Advocates Arrest of Egyptian Human Rights encourage those we have relationships with to treat with Advocates basic human rights those who oppose them, and that the message from this House tonight is that the way Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House human rights are handled has a bearing on the strength do now adjourn.—(Rebecca Harris.) of our ties with other nations that abuse human rights?

5.57 pm Rushanara Ali: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab): I rise right. The strength of our partnership should be judged to speak in support of Karim Ennarah, the husband of by the ability to provide constructive criticism to my constituent Jessica Kelly. I also want to highlight the Governments who are responsible for human rights widespread human rights abuses under the current Egyptian violations, and I look forward to hearing from the regime. Minister what work our Government are doing to ensure that the Egyptian Government, as well as other Karim Ennarah works for a human rights organisation, Governments who have been responsible for significant the Egyptian Initiative for Personal Rights. He holds a human rights violations, take action to bring an end to master’s degree from the School of Oriental and African such violations. Studies at the University of London and was a Chevening scholar. He has lots of UK connections as well as Karim’s wife, Jessica Kelly, was instrumental in family connections. campaigning for her husband’s release and that of his Karim Ennarah was arrested on Wednesday colleagues. We are all relieved to hear about their release, 18 November by Egyptian security services at a beach but there are a number of outstanding issues. What café while he was on a break in Dahab on the Sinai matters now is that the Egyptian Government allow peninsula. His colleague, Mohammed Basheer, was also Karim to leave the country to come to the UK where he arrested, on 15 November, and the director of the can be reunited with his wife. I would be grateful if the Egyptian Initiative for Personal Rights, Gasser Abdel- Minister provided an update on whether that will be Razek, was arrested in Cairo on 19 November. This possible and what action our embassy is taking to follows an arrest earlier in the year of another of their enable Karim to be reunited with his wife in the UK. colleagues. The men were also accused of having links to terror The three arrests happened following a meeting with organisations and of spreading fake news on social EIPR that was initiated by diplomats from Germany, media, but let us be crystal clear that they were arrested Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France,Italy,the Netherlands, for shining the spotlight on the human rights abuses of Spain and Switzerland, as well as the chargés d’affaires that regime. of Canada, Norway and Sweden and the deputy ambassador of the United Kingdom. At that meeting, Daniel Zeichner (Cambridge) (Lab): I wonder whether the diplomats and the EIPR discussed the human rights my hon. Friend is aware of the case of Giulio Regeni, situation in Egypt. the Cambridge PhD student who was researching trade The arrests of Karim Ennarah and his colleagues unions in Cairo. He was brutally murdered five years ago. were a co-ordinated crackdown on those campaigning Does she agree that it is in the interests of everyone, for human rights issues. The United Nations human including the Egyptian Government, that, in the end, the rights agency called the arrests “chilling”. Karim was truth comes out and justice is done, and is seen to be done? held without trial in the notorious Tora prison. That is a complex known for the torture of political prisoners, where the cells are designed never to see sunlight. Those Rushanara Ali: I thank my hon. Friend for raising who have experienced it tell of cells without beds, the that case and I could not agree with him more. It is denial of medical attention, floors crawling with insects, really important that the European Union and the UK and temperatures soaring to unbearable highs before work together to ensure that such actions of the Egyptian crashing to freezing cold. Political prisoners are routinely Government are confronted, and that Giulio’s family starved, beaten and abused. get the justice they deserve. On 4 December, after a global outcry and pressure on Yet again, we see that repressive regimes—in this the Egyptian regime, the three were released from prison, case, Egypt—behave far worse if they think the world is but they remain in Egypt under close surveillance and not watching and holding them to account. It is critical their assets have been frozen by order of the courts. We that we work with our partners to ensure that we hold are yet to hear whether they are being held under any Governments such as the Egyptian Government to other conditions, as the investigation continues to hang account for human rights violations, and that action is over them. Karim’s wife, Jessica Kelly, with support taken to bring an end to such violations. We must ensure from campaigners, human rights organisations and nearly that we shine a spotlight—in the most aggressive way 150,000 people who signed a petition, alongside a number possible through diplomatic means and through our of celebrities, has led the global efforts to secure his relationships—to ensure that these kinds of arbitrary release and that of his colleagues. She deserves our arrest and detention do not happen to people who are praise and admiration for her incredible fortitude in fighting for the rights of others. such trying circumstances. This regime came to power in 2013 in a military coup, dissolving the constitution and dismissing the opposition. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the hon. Since then, there has been widespread concern about human Lady for bringing this case to the main Chamber for rights violations, some of which have been raised this our consideration. Does she agree that we have an evening. On 14 August 2013, Egyptian security forces, obligation to use all diplomatic procedures available to under the command of General Abdel Fattah al-Sisi, 809 Arrest of Egyptian Human Rights 8 DECEMBER 2020 Arrest of Egyptian Human Rights 810 Advocates Advocates raided two camps of protesters in Cairo. Human no doubt that the whole House will have welcomed the Rights Watch described these raids and the subsequent release on 3 December of three men, Mohammed Basheer, massacres as Karim Ennarah, and Gasser Abdel-Razek, from the “one of the world’s largest killings of demonstrators in a single Egyptian Initiative for Personal Rights. I pay tribute to day in recent history”. the hon. Lady for the work she has done and the active It also pointed to the fact that over 900 people were role she has played in advocating for the men’s release. I killed during the massacre. also pay tribute to the family, friends and supporters of the three men, particularly her constituent, Jessica Kelly, Human rights activists and observers report that the who have campaigned tirelessly on their behalf and regime has employed arbitrary imprisonment, torture, worked so hard to secure their release. extrajudicial killings, home demolitions, forced disappearances and sexual violence against its opponents. It is the eve of International Human Rights Defenders The families of Egyptians abroad have been detained to Day, and these courageous people must be allowed to stifle criticism of the Government. There are not free carry out their work without fear of arrest or reprisal. and fair elections; al-Sisi won the 2014 election with The UK Government will stand up for human rights 97% of the vote. All this evidence of thuggery,intimidation, defenders, wherever they are. violence and torture makes the bravery of human rights defenders even more apparent. They are truly courageous On the specific case, although the release of the three and heroic, risking their lives to protect the rights of men is welcome news, we understand that, as the hon. others. It is right that we offer them whatever support Lady said, the case is not yet closed. We will continue to we can, and it is necessary and right that our Government take a close interest and to explain why we, the UK do all they can to provide the support that they need. Government, think it is vital that they and the EIPR Jessica Kelly,her family and I are grateful to the Foreign continue to play their vital role as an independent voice Secretary for the statement that he made immediately on human rights in Egypt. We remain concerned about after the arrests, and for the representation that he and the application of anti-terrorism legislation in this and his Ministers made to their Egyptian counterparts to other such cases. Wewill continue to monitor the situation help to secure the release of Karim Ennarah and two of closely and where we have concerns we will raise them. his colleagues. As I mentioned, another colleague, Patrick The hon. Lady made points about prison conditions, Zaki, remains in detention, and his term has just been and we have not hesitated and will never hesitate to extended by another 45 days by the Egyptian courts. raise the issue of prison conditions and treatment of I would be grateful if the Minister provided an update detainees with the Egyptian authorities whenever necessary, on that case and whether further representations have including in this case. been made to secure his release. Furthermore, although I welcome the swift and positive I would also be grateful if the Minister told us what developments in this case, I want to stress the Government’s further representations he is making to ensure that the broader commitment to human rights defenders and to Egyptian Government take seriously our concerns, the the protection and promotion of human rights. Civil UK Government’sconcern and the international concerns and political rights, including fair access to justice, must about human rights abuses and about the wider record be respected in Egypt and around the world. of the Egyptian Government on human rights violations and the culture of arbitrary detention, enforced It is no secret that the UK wants to see better protection disappearances and torture of human rights defenders. of human rights in Egypt. We have an ongoing dialogue Will he update the House on what efforts our Government with Egypt on this matter. The strength of our bilateral are making, working with our European counterparts relations with Egypt allows us to speak frankly, and and other international partners, to apply diplomatic where we have concerns we always raise them. We work pressure on the Egyptian Government to ensure that closely with Egypt at ministerial and official levels on a these kinds of human rights violation are brought to an range of bilateral priorities, including trade and economic end? development, tourism, education and cultural co-operation. We also work together on a range of regional and This case was highlighted to me because the husband global issues that matter to both our countries, including of a British national—my constituent—was arrested, climate change, combating covid-19 and conflict resolution, alongside his colleagues, but for every one of those including the conflict in Libya. As I say, that co-operation cases, there are many others that do not get the attention does give us the opportunity to speak with them on that they should be getting. We are all grateful to more difficult and sensitive issues, as we did in the case Jessica Kelly and her family, and to all those who have we are speaking about today. campaigned for the release of her husband and his two colleagues, but it is vital that our Government work The Government took swift and decisive action on with our international partners to ensure that all those the EIPR case. On 19 November, my right hon. Friend who are being locked up, tortured and punished for the Foreign Secretary spoke directly to his Egyptian standing up for human rights are protected. I would be counterpart to register our deep concerns about this grateful if the Minister addressed those concerns. arrest. Indeed, he was the first Foreign Minister to do so. Senior officials, including our ambassador in Cairo, continued to underline these concerns, and the British 6.9 pm embassy in Cairo remained in regular contact throughout The Minister for the Middle East and North Africa with the EIPR, the detainees’ lawyers and the British (James Cleverly): I am grateful to the hon. Member for family of Karim Ennarah. Naturally, the UK also Bethnal Green and Bow (Rushanara Ali) for securing worked closely with international partners who shared this debate and to the Members who have intervened our concern, including European partners, as the hon. for making important points during her speech. I have Lady mentioned. In Cairo, the embassy worked closely 811 Arrest of Egyptian Human Rights 8 DECEMBER 2020 Arrest of Egyptian Human Rights 812 Advocates Advocates [James Cleverly] James Cleverly: I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention, which spurs me to clarify why I made the with like-minded partners to take joint action. In Geneva, points about the bilateral economic relationship. While the UK’s human rights ambassador has been active in making representations to the Egyptian authorities about organising briefings on the case with civil society and the cases she raised, we were simultaneously working other like-minded states. towards this closer economic partnership. I was hoping to get across that we do not regard these as mutually The UK wants to see Egypt thrive. We want better exclusive. Wecan work closely with international partners, protection for Egyptians’constitutional rights and freedom including our partnership with Egypt, while simultaneously of expression, and more space for NGOs and civil raising our concerns about human rights and individuals society is an essential part of that. It is also in the UK’s who have been incarcerated. The two go hand in hand, interest to co-operate with Egypt on other issues that rather than being in contradiction to each other. matter to both countries, such as strengthening trade, We will continue to advocate. I am concerned about tackling climate change, working together to address the reports that Karim appears not to have been allowed our shared security challenges and concerns, and protecting to leave the country and be reunited with his wife. regional stability. Trade between the UK and Egypt was Human rights defenders make an essential contribution. worth £3.5 billion in 2019, and the association agreement They are important and we will continue to call on the that we signed on 5 December, to ensure continuity of Egyptian authorities to allow Karim to be able to bilateral trade after the end of the transition period on conduct his work and his life unimpeded. 31 December, provides a new framework to boost trade Therefore, the Government are totally committed to and help both countries to build back better after our taking action to promote and protect human rights. fight against the covid-19 pandemic. Wherever and whenever we have concerns, we will raise them. Everywhere in the world, human rights defenders should be able to carry out their work without fear of Rushanara Ali: As I said, I am grateful for the arrest or reprisal. We welcome the release of Mohammed interventions the Foreign Secretary has made as well, Basheer, Karim Ennarah and Gasser Abdel-Rasek from and I know the family are. Will the Minister take away the Egyptian Initiative for Personal Rights, and we my point about Patrick Zaki, a colleague of Jessica’s expect them to be able to go unmolested from now on. husband, as he is still in prison? I recognise what the We will continue to have regular and frank discussions Minister is saying about the work that the UK Government with the Government of Egypt on human rights issues. are doing on human rights issues, but given our strong Question put and agreed to. trade ties, can he reassure the House that we are not going to overlook the importance of human rights, in 6.19 pm the interests of needing to have strong trading relationships? House adjourned. 813 8 DECEMBER 2020 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 814

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The following is the list of Members currently certified Steven Bonnar (Coatbridge, Chryston Patrick Grady as eligible for a proxy vote, and of the Members nominated and Bellshill) (SNP) as their proxy: Tracy Brabin (Batley and Spen) (Lab/ Chris Elmore Co-op) Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy Ben Bradley (Mansfield) (Con) Stuart Andrew Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Stuart Andrew Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Bell Ribeiro-Addy Moorlands) (Con) Stoke Newington) (Lab) Suella Braverman (Fareham) (Con) Stuart Andrew Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Chris Elmore Saddleworth) (Lab) Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West ) (Lab) Chris Elmore Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) (Con) Stuart Andrew Jack Brereton (Stoke-on-Trent South) Stuart Andrew (Con) Imran Ahmad Khan (Wakefield) (Con) Stuart Andrew Andrew Bridgen (North West Stuart Andrew Nickie Aiken (Cities of London and Stuart Andrew Leicestershire) (Con) Westminster) (Con) Sara Britcliffe (Hyndburn) (Con) Stuart Andrew Tahir Ali (Birmingham, Hall Green) Chris Elmore (Lab) Deidre Brock (Edinburgh North and Patrick Grady Leith) (SNP) Lucy Allan (Telford) (Con) Mark Spencer James Brokenshire (Old Bexley and Stuart Andrew Dr Rosena Allin-Khan (Tooting) (Lab) Chris Elmore Sidcup) (Con) Mike Amesbury (Weaver Vale) (Lab) Chris Elmore Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudon) Patrick Grady Sir David Amess (Southend West) Stuart Andrew (SNP) (Con) Ms Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab) Chris Elmore Fleur Anderson (Putney) (Lab) Chris Elmore Anthony Browne (South Stuart Andrew Lee Anderson (Ashfield) (Con) Mark Spencer Cambridgeshire) (Con) Stuart Anderson (Wolverhampton Stuart Andrew Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) Chris Elmore South West) (Con) (Lab) Caroline Ansell (Eastbourne) (Con) Stuart Andrew Alex Burghart (Brentwood and Ongar) Stuart Andrew Tonia Antoniazzi (Gower) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Con) Edward Argar (Charnwood) (Con) Stuart Andrew Richard Burgon (Leeds East) (Lab) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Sarah Atherton (Wrexham) (Con) Stuart Andrew Conor Burns (Bournemouth West) Stuart Andrew Victoria Atkins (Louth and Stuart Andrew (Con) Horncastle) (Con) Dawn Butler (Brent Central) (Lab) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) Stuart Andrew Rob Butler (Aylesbury) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Ian Byrne (Liverpool, West Derby) Chris Elmore Kemi Badenoch (Saffron Walden) Stuart Andrew (Lab) (Con) Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) Chris Elmore Siobhan Baillie (Stroud) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Lab) Steve Barclay (North East Stuart Andrew Ruth Cadbury (Brentford and Chris Elmore Cambridgeshire) (Con) Isleworth) (Lab) Hannah Bardell (Livingston) (SNP) Patrick Grady Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) Stuart Andrew Mr John Baron (Basildon and Stuart Andrew (Con) Billericay) (Con) Amy Callaghan (East Dunbartonshire) Patrick Grady Simon Baynes (Clwyd South) (Con) Stuart Andrew (SNP) Margaret Beckett (Derby South) (Lab) Chris Elmore Dr Lisa Cameron (East Kilbride, Patrick Grady Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (SNP) Apsana Begum (Poplar and Bell Ribeiro-Addy Limehouse) (Lab) Mr Gregory Campbell (East Gavin Robinson Londonderry) (DUP) Scott Benton (Blackpool South) (Con) Stuart Andrew Andy Carter (Warrington South) (Con) Stuart Andrew Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Valley) (Con) Stuart Andrew James Cartlidge (South Suffolk) (Con) Stuart Andrew Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) Stuart Andrew (Con) Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con) Stuart Andrew Miriam Cates (Penistone and Stuart Andrew Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab) Chris Elmore Stocksbridge) (Con) Saqib Bhatti (Meriden) (Con) Stuart Andrew Alex Chalk (Cheltenham) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mhairi Black (Paisley and Renfrewshire Patrick Grady Sarah Champion (Rotherham) (Lab) Chris Elmore South) (SNP) Douglas Chapman (Dunfermline and Patrick Grady Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Patrick Grady West Fife) (SNP) Lochaber) (SNP) Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) Patrick Grady Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con) Stuart Andrew (SNP) Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) Patrick Grady Jo Churchill (Bury St Edmunds) (Con) Stuart Andrew (SNP) Feryal Clark (Enfield North) (Lab) Chris Elmore Olivia Blake (Sheffield, Hallam) (Lab) Chris Elmore Mr Simon Clarke (Middlesbrough Stuart Andrew Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) Chris Elmore South and East Cleveland) (Con) (Lab) Theo Clarke (Stafford) (Con) Stuart Andrew Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con) Stuart Andrew Brendan Clarke-Smith (Bassetlaw) Stuart Andrew Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) 815 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote8 DECEMBER 2020 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 816

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Chris Clarkson (Heywood and Stuart Andrew Steve Double (St Austell and Newquay) Stuart Andrew Middleton) (Con) (Con) James Cleverly (Braintree) (Con) Stuart Andrew Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Chris Elmore Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) Stuart Andrew Penarth) (Lab) (Con) Peter Dowd (Bootle) (Lab) Chris Elmore Damian Collins (Folkestone and Stuart Andrew Oliver Dowden (Hertsmere) (Con) Stuart Andrew Hythe) (Con) Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con) Stuart Andrew Daisy Cooper (St Albans) (LD) Wendy Chamberlain Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) Chris Elmore Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Lab) Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Ind) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Mrs Flick Drummond (Meon Valley) Stuart Andrew (Con) Alberto Costa (South Leicestershire) Stuart Andrew (Con) James Duddridge (Rochford and Stuart Andrew Southend East) (Con) Claire Coutinho (East Surrey) (Con) Stuart Andrew Rosie Duffield (Canterbury) (Lab) Chris Elmore Ronnie Cowan (Inverclyde) (SNP) Patrick Grady Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con) Stuart Andrew Geoffrey Cox (Torridge and West Stuart Andrew Devon) (Con) Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab) Chris Elmore Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) Chris Elmore Angela Crawley (Lanark and Hamilton Patrick Grady (Lab) East) (SNP) Colum Eastwood (Foyle) (SDLP) Patrick Grady Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab) Chris Elmore Mark Eastwood (Dewsbury) (Con) Stuart Andrew Virginia Crosbie (Ynys Môn) (Con) Stuart Andrew Ruth Edwards (Rushcliffe) (Con) Stuart Andrew Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Rebecca Harris Aylesford) (Con) Michael Ellis (Northampton North) Stuart Andrew (Con) Jon Cruddas (Dagenham and Chris Elmore Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth Stuart Andrew Rainham) (Lab) East) (Con) John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) Chris Elmore Mrs Natalie Elphicke (Dover) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Lab) Florence Eshalomi (Vauxhall) (Lab/Co- Chris Elmore Judith Cummins (Bradford South) Chris Elmore op) (Lab) Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab) Chris Elmore Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) Chris Elmore (Lab) George Eustice (Camborne and Stuart Andrew Redruth) (Con) Janet Daby (Lewisham East) (Lab) Chris Elmore Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op) Chris Elmore James Daly (Bury North) (Con) Stuart Andrew Dr Luke Evans (Bosworth) (Con) Stuart Andrew Ed Davey (Kingston and Surbiton) Wendy Chamberlain Sir David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Stuart Andrew (LD) Crayford) (Con) Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab) Chris Elmore Ben Everitt (Milton Keynes North) Stuart Andrew Gareth Davies (Grantham and Stuart Andrew (Con) Stamford) (Con) Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con) Stuart Andrew Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/ Chris Elmore Laura Farris (Newbury) (Con) Stuart Andrew Co-op) Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance) Wendy Chamberlain Mims Davies (Mid Sussex) (Con) Stuart Andrew Simon Fell (Barrow and Furness) (Con) Stuart Andrew Alex Davies-Jones (Pontypridd) (Lab) Chris Elmore Marion Fellows (Motherwell and Patrick Grady Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con) Stuart Andrew Wishaw) (SNP) Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Stuart Andrew Margaret Ferrier (Rutherglen and Jonathan Edwards Howden) (Con) Hamilton West) (Ind) Martyn Day (Linlithgow and East Patrick Grady Katherine Fletcher (South Ribble) Stuart Andrew Falkirk) (SNP) (Con) Thangam Debbonaire (Bristol West) Chris Elmore Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South) Patrick Grady (Lab) (SNP) Marsha De Cordova (Battersea) Rachel Hopkins Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) Chris Elmore Kevin Foster (Torbay) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Lab) Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab) Chris Elmore Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con) Stuart Andrew Dr Liam Fox (North Somerset) (Con) Stuart Andrew Miss Sarah Dines (Derbyshire Dales) Stuart Andrew Vicky Foxcroft (Lewisham, Deptford) Chris Elmore (Con) (Lab) Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Patrick Grady Mary Kelly Foy (City of Durham) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Dunbartonshire) (SNP) (Lab) Michelle Donelan (Chippenham) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Stuart Andrew Dave Doogan (Angus) (SNP) Patrick Grady Wickford) (Con) Allan Dorans (Ayr, Carrick and Patrick Grady Lucy Frazer (South East Stuart Andrew Cumnock) (SNP) Cambridgeshire) (Con) Ms Nadine Dorries (Mid Bedfordshire) Stuart Andrew George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Marcus Fysh (Yeovil) (Con) Stuart Andrew 817 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote8 DECEMBER 2020 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 818

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Sir Roger Gale (North Thanet) (Con) Stuart Andrew James Heappey (Wells) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) (Con) Stuart Andrew Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con) Stuart Andrew Ms Nusrat Ghani (Wealden) (Con) Stuart Andrew Gordon Henderson (Sittingbourne and Stuart Andrew Nick Gibb (Bognor Regis and Stuart Andrew Sheppey) (Con) Littlehampton) (Con) Sir Mark Hendrick (Preston) (Lab/Co- Chris Elmore Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Patrick Grady op) Arran) (SNP) Drew Hendry (Inverness, Nairn, Patrick Grady Peter Gibson (Darlington) (Con) Stuart Andrew Badenoch and Strathspey) (SNP) Jo Gideon (Stoke-on-Trent Central) Stuart Andrew Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con) Stuart Andrew Preet Kaur Gill (Birmingham, Chris Elmore Dame Margaret Hodge (Barking) (Lab) Chris Elmore Edgbaston) (Lab/Co-op) Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Chris Elmore Dame Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Stuart Andrew Sunderland West) (Lab) Amersham) (Con) Richard Holden (North West Durham) Stuart Andrew John Glen (Salisbury) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab) Chris Elmore Kate Hollern (Blackburn) (Lab) Chris Elmore Mr Robert Goodwill (Scarborough and Stuart Andrew Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) Stuart Andrew Whitby) (Con) (Con) Michael Gove (Surrey Heath) (Con) Stuart Andrew Adam Holloway (Gravesham) (Con) Maria Caulfield Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Stuart Andrew Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP) Patrick Grady Weald) (Con) Sir George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab) Chris Elmore Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP) Patrick Grady John Howell (Henley) (Con) Stuart Andrew Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Patrick Grady Paul Howell (Sedgefield) (Con) Stuart Andrew Chris Grayling (Epsom and Ewell) Stuart Andrew Nigel Huddleston (Mid Worcestershire) Stuart Andrew (Con) (Con) Damian Green (Ashford) (Con) Stuart Andrew Dr Neil Hudson (Penrith and The Stuart Andrew Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) Chris Elmore Border) (Con) (Lab) Jane Hunt (Loughborough) (Con) Stuart Andrew Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) Chris Elmore Jeremy Hunt (South West Surrey) Stuart Andrew (Lab) (Con) Margaret Greenwood (Wirral West) Chris Elmore Rupa Huq (Ealing Central and Acton) Chris Elmore (Lab) (Lab) Andrew Griffith (Arundel and South Stuart Andrew Imran Hussain (Bradford East) (Lab) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Downs) (Con) Mr Alister Jack (Dumfries and Stuart Andrew Kate Griffiths (Burton) (Con) Stuart Andrew Galloway) (Con) James Grundy (Leigh) (Con) Stuart Andrew Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab) Chris Elmore Jonathan Gullis (Stoke-on-Trent Stuart Andrew Mr Ranil Jayawardena (North East Stuart Andrew North) (Con) Hampshire) (Con) Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Chris Elmore Mark Jenkinson (Workington) (Con) Stuart Andrew Reddish) (Lab) Andrea Jenkyns (Morley and Stuart Andrew Louise Haigh (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab) Chris Elmore Outwood) (Con) Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con) Rebecca Harris Robert Jenrick (Newark) (Con) Stuart Andrew Luke Hall (Thornbury and Yate) (Con) Stuart Andrew Boris Johnson (Uxbridge and South Stuart Andrew Fabian Hamilton (Leeds North East) Chris Elmore Ruislip) (Con) (Lab) Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and Stuart Andrew Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) Stuart Andrew North Hykeham) (Con) (Con) Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Chris Elmore Matt Hancock (West Suffolk) (Con) Stuart Andrew Hull North) (Lab) Greg Hands (Chelsea and Fulham) Stuart Andrew Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Darren Jones (Bristol North West) Chris Elmore Neale Hanvey (Kirkcaldy and Patrick Grady (Lab) Cowdenbeath) (SNP) Fay Jones (Brecon and Radnorshire) Stuart Andrew Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Hull Chris Elmore (Con) West and Hessle) (Lab) Gerald Jones (Merthyr Tydfil and Chris Elmore Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Chris Elmore Rhymney) (Lab) Peckham) (Lab) Ruth Jones (Newport West) (Lab) Chris Elmore Carolyn Harris (Swansea East) (Lab) Chris Elmore Sarah Jones (Croydon Central) (Lab) Chris Elmore Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and Stuart Andrew Mike Kane (Wythenshawe and Sale Chris Elmore South Pembrokeshire) (Con) East) (Lab) Sir John Hayes (South Holland and Stuart Andrew Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Stuart Andrew The Deepings) (Con) Atcham) (Con) Sir Oliver Heald (North East Stuart Andrew Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Melton) Stuart Andrew Hertfordshire) (Con) (Con) 819 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote8 DECEMBER 2020 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 820

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Gillian Keegan (Chichester) (Con) Stuart Andrew Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Chris Elmore Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles Chris Elmore Tyne North) (Lab) South) (Lab) Craig Mackinlay (South Thanet) (Con) Stuart Andrew Liz Kendall (Leicester West) (Lab) Chris Elmore Cherilyn Mackrory (Truro and Stuart Andrew Afzal Khan (Manchester, Gorton) Chris Elmore Falmouth) (Con) (Lab) Anne McLaughlin (Glasgow North Patrick Grady Stephen Kinnock (Aberavon) (Lab) Chris Elmore East) (SNP) Sir Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con) Stuart Andrew Rachel Maclean (Redditch) (Con) Stuart Andrew Julian Knight (Solihull) (Con) Stuart Andrew Jim McMahon (Oldham West and Chris Elmore Royton) (Lab) Kwasi Kwarteng (Spelthorne) (Con) Stuart Andrew Anna McMorrin (Cardiff North) (Lab) Chris Elmore Peter Kyle (Hove) (Lab) Chris Elmore John Mc Nally (Falkirk) (SNP) Patrick Grady Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab) Chris Elmore Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na Patrick Grady John Lamont (Berwickshire, Roxburgh Stuart Andrew h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) and Selkirk) (Con) Stephen McPartland (Stevenage) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mrs Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) Mr William Wragg (Con) Esther McVey (Tatton) (Con) Stuart Andrew Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Khalid Mahmood (Birmingham, Perry Chris Elmore Barr) (Lab) Chris Law (Dundee West) (SNP) Patrick Grady Shabana Mahmood (Birmingham, Chris Elmore Andrea Leadsom (South Stuart Andrew Ladywood) (Lab) Northamptonshire) (Con) Alan Mak (Havant) (Con) Stuart Andrew Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) Stuart Andrew (Con) Kit Malthouse (North West Stuart Andrew Hampshire) (Con) Ian Levy (Blyth Valley) (Con) Stuart Andrew Julie Marson (Hertford and Stortford) Stuart Andrew Andrew Lewer (Northampton South) Stuart Andrew (Con) (Con) Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab) Chris Elmore Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) Stuart Andrew (Con) Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Clive Lewis (Norwich South) (Lab) Chris Elmore Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater Stuart Andrew Johnny Mercer (Plymouth, Moor View) Stuart Andrew and West Somerset) (Con) (Con) David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP) Patrick Grady Huw Merriman (Bexhill and Battle) Stuart Andrew (Con) Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab) Chris Elmore Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and Stuart Andrew Carla Lockhart (Upper Bann) (DUP) Ian Paisley East Thurrock) (Con) Mark Logan (Bolton North East) Stuart Andrew Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) Chris Elmore (Con) (Lab) Rebecca Long Bailey (Salford and Bell Ribeiro-Addy Mrs Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con) Stuart Andrew Eccles) (Lab) Amanda Milling (Cannock Chase) Stuart Andrew Marco Longhi (Dudley North) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Julia Lopez (Hornchurch and Stuart Andrew Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con) Stuart Andrew Upminster) (Con) Mr Andrew Mitchell (Sutton Coldfield) Stuart Andrew Jack Lopresti (Filton and Bradley Stuart Andrew (Con) Stoke) (Con) Carol Monaghan (Glasgow North Patrick Grady Mr Jonathan Lord (Woking) (Con) Stuart Andrew West) Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Layla Moran (Oxford West and Wendy Chamberlain (Green) Abingdon) (LD) Holly Lynch (Halifax) (Lab) Chris Elmore Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab) Chris Elmore Kenny MacAskill (East Lothian) (SNP) Patrick Grady Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) Mark Spencer Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Con) Karl McCartney (Lincoln) (Con) Stuart Andrew Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) Stuart Andrew Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) Chris Elmore (Con) (Lab) David Morris (Morecambe and Stuart Andrew Stewart Malcolm McDonald (Glasgow Patrick Grady Lunesdale) (Con) South) (SNP) Joy Morrissey (Beaconsfield) (Con) Stuart Andrew Stuart C. McDonald (Cumbernauld, Patrick Grady Wendy Morton (Aldridge-Brownhills) Stuart Andrew Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (SNP) (Con) John McDonnell (Hayes and Bell Ribeiro-Addy Dr Kieran Mullan (Crewe and Tom Hunt Harlington) (Lab) Nantwich) (Con) Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton Chris Elmore Holly Mumby-Croft (Scunthorpe) Stuart Andrew South East) (Lab) (Con) Conor McGinn (St Helens North) Chris Elmore David Mundell (Dumfriesshire, Stuart Andrew (Lab) Clydesdale and Tweeddale) (Con) Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab) Chris Elmore Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab) Chris Elmore 821 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote8 DECEMBER 2020 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 822

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James Murray (Ealing North) (Lab/Co- Chris Elmore Steve Reed (Croydon North) (Lab/Co- Chris Elmore op) op) Mrs Sheryll Murray (South East Stuart Andrew Christina Rees (Neath) (Lab) Chris Elmore Cornwall) (Con) Ellie Reeves (Lewisham West and Chris Elmore Andrew Murrison (South West Stuart Andrew Penge) (Lab) Wiltshire) (Con) Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab) Chris Elmore Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab) Chris Elmore Nicola Richards (West Bromwich East) Stuart Andrew Sir Robert Neill (Bromley and Stuart Andrew (Con) Chislehurst) (Con) Ms Marie Rimmer (St Helens South Chris Elmore Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Patrick Grady and Whiston) (Lab) Renfrewshire North) (SNP) Rob Roberts (Delyn) (Con) Stuart Andrew Lia Nici (Great Grimsby) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) Stuart Andrew John Nicolson (Ochil and South Patrick Grady (Con) Perthshire) (SNP) Mary Robinson (Cheadle) (Con) Stuart Andrew Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Stuart Andrew Matt Rodda (Reading East) (Lab) Chris Elmore Southampton North) (Con) Douglas Ross (Moray) (Con) Stuart Andrew Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Stuart Andrew Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Brighton, Chris Elmore Herefordshire) (Con) Kemptown) (Lab/Co-op) Alex Norris (Nottingham North) (Lab/ Chris Elmore Gary Sambrook (Birmingham, Stuart Andrew Co-op) Northfield) (Lab) Neil O’Brien (Harborough) (Con) Stuart Andrew Selaine Saxby (North Devon) (Con) Stuart Andrew Brendan O’Hara (Argyll and Bute) Patrick Grady Paul Scully (Sutton and Cheam) (Con) Stuart Andrew (SNP) Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con) Stuart Andrew Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con) Rebecca Harris Andrew Selous (South West Rebecca Harris Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con) Stuart Andrew Bedfordshire) (Con) Abena Oppong-Asare (Erith and Chris Elmore Naz Shah (Bradford West) (Lab) Chris Elmore Thamesmead) (Lab) Grant Shapps (Welwyn Hatfield) (Con) Stuart Andrew Kate Osamor (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op) Rachel Hopkins Alok Sharma (Reading West) (Con) Stuart Andrew Kate Osborne (Jarrow) (Lab) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) Chris Elmore Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) Patrick Grady (Lab) (SNP) Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) Chris Elmore Taiwo Owatemi (Coventry North West) Chris Elmore (Lab/Co-op) (Lab) Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) Stuart Andrew (Con) Sarah Owen (Luton North) (Lab) Chris Elmore Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh East) Patrick Grady Priti Patel (Witham) (Con) Stuart Andrew (SNP) Mr Owen Paterson (North Shropshire) Stuart Andrew Tulip Siddiq (Hampstead and Kilburn) Chris Elmore (Con) (Lab) Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con) Stuart Andrew David Simmonds (Ruislip, Northwood Stuart Andrew Stephanie Peacock (Barnsley East) Chris Elmore and Pinner) (Con) (Lab) Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con) Stuart Andrew Sir Mike Penning (Hemel Hempstead) Stuart Andrew Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Con) Alyn Smith (Stirling) (SNP) Patrick Grady Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con) Stuart Andrew Cat Smith (Lancaster and Fleetwood) Chris Elmore Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Lab) Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Yardley) Chris Elmore Chloe Smith (Norwich North) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Lab) Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con) Stuart Andrew Chris Philp (Croydon South) (Con) Stuart Andrew Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab) Chris Elmore Dr Dan Poulter (Central Suffolk and Peter Aldous Royston Smith (Southampton, Itchen) Stuart Andrew North Ipswich) (Con) (Con) Rebecca Pow (Taunton Deane) (Con) Stuart Andrew Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab) Chris Elmore Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) Chris Elmore Amanda Solloway (Derby North) Stuart Andrew (Lab/Co-op) (Con) Victoria Prentis (Banbury) (Con) Stuart Andrew Dr Ben Spencer (Runnymede and Stuart Andrew Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con) Stuart Andrew Weybridge) (Con) Jeremy Quin (Horsham) (Con) Stuart Andrew Alexander Stafford (Rother Valley) Stuart Andrew Will Quince (Colchester) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) Chris Elmore Keir Starmer (Holborn and St Pancras) Chris Elmore (Lab) (Lab) Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) Stuart Andrew Chris Stephens (Glasgow South West) Patrick Grady (Con) (SNP) Angela Rayner (Ashton-under-Lyne) Chris Elmore Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Lab) Jo Stevens (Cardiff Central) (Lab) Chris Elmore 823 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote8 DECEMBER 2020 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 824

Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy

Jane Stevenson (Wolverhampton North Stuart Andrew Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con) Stuart Andrew East) (Con) Theresa Villiers (Chipping Barnet) Stuart Andrew John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con) Stuart Andrew Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) Stuart Andrew Mr Ben Wallace (Wyre and Preston Stuart Andrew (Con) North) Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Wendy Chamberlain Dr Jamie Wallis (Bridgend) (Con) Stuart Andrew Easter Ross) (LD) Matt Warman (Boston and Skegness) Stuart Andrew Sir Gary Streeter (South West Devon) Stuart Andrew (Con) (Con) David Warburton (Somerset and Stuart Andrew Wes Streeting (Ilford North) (Lab) Chris Elmore Frome) (Con) Mel Stride (Central Devon) (Con) Stuart Andrew Suzanne Webb (Stourbridge) (Con) Stuart Andrew Graham Stuart (Beverley and Stuart Andrew Claudia Webbe (Leicester East) (Ind) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Holderness) (Con) Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Chris Elmore Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con) Stuart Andrew Green) (Lab) Zarah Sultana (Coventry South) (Lab) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Helen Whately (Faversham and Mid Stuart Andrew Sam Tarry (Ilford South) (Lab) Chris Elmore Kent) (Con) Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) Patrick Grady Mrs Heather Wheeler (South Stuart Andrew (SNP) Derbyshire) (Con) Derek Thomas (St Ives) (Con) Stuart Andrew Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Patrick Grady Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/ Chris Elmore Ayrshire) (SNP) Co-op) Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley) (Con) Stuart Andrew Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Chris Elmore John Whittingdale (Malden) (Con) Stuart Andrew Finsbury) (Lab) Edward Timpson (Eddisbury) (Con) Stuart Andrew Nadia Whittome (Nottingham East) Chris Elmore (Lab) Kelly Tolhurst (Rochester and Strood) Stuart Andrew (Con) Bill Wiggin (North Herefordshire) Stuart Andrew (Con) Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) Stuart Andrew (Con) Craig Williams (Montgomeryshire) Stuart Andrew (Con) Craig Tracey (North Warwickshire) Stuart Andrew (Con) Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC) Ben Lake Anne-Marie Trevelyan (Berwick-upon- Stuart Andrew Gavin Williamson (Montgomeryshire) Stuart Andrew Tweed) (Con) (Con) Jon Trickett (Hemsworth) (Lab) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Munira Wilson (Twickenham) (LD) Wendy Chamberlain Laura Trott (Sevenoaks) (Con) Stuart Andrew Beth Winter (Cynon Valley) (Lab) Rachel Hopkins Elizabeth Truss (South West Norfolk) Stuart Andrew Pete Wishart (Perth and North Patrick Grady (Con) Perthshire) (SNP) Tom Tugendhat (Tonbridge and Stuart Andrew Mike Wood (Dudley South) (Con) Stuart Andrew Malling) (Con) Mohammad Yasin (Bedford) (Lab) Chris Elmore Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) Chris Elmore Jacob Young (Redcar) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Lab) Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) Stuart Andrew Mr Shailesh Vara (North West Stuart Andrew (Con) Cambridgeshire) (Con) 307WH 8 DECEMBER 2020 Global Malnutrition: FCDO Role 308WH

that, in response to today’s debate, she will be able to Westminster Hall demonstrate some of the steps that her Department is taking. Tuesday 8 December 2020 Nutrition is a foundational investment in people. A child who suffers malnutrition in their early years is less likely to develop a strong immune system and, as a [PHILIP DAVIES in the Chair] result, is more likely to fall ill and, indeed, to die. As well as costing lives, malnutrition holds people back. A child who is more likely to fall ill will get less from their Global Malnutrition: FCDO Role education and is therefore less likely to meet their economic potential in adulthood. 9.30 am In regions such as east Africa, where almost 40% of Philip Davies (in the Chair): I remind hon. Members children suffer from stunting, countries are held back that there have been some changes to normal practice in by malnutrition as they haemorrhage money on avoidable order to support the new call-list system and to ensure healthcare costs and lost workforce productivity. Indeed, that social distancing can be respected. Members should the World Bank estimates that malnutrition costs some sanitise their microphones, using the cleaning materials countries up to 11% of GDP each year. provided, before they use them and should dispose of In his speech addressing the cuts to the official those materials as they leave the room. Members are development assistance budget, the Foreign Secretary asked to respect the one-way system around the room set out his Department’s priorities. I argue that nutrition and exit by the door on the left. Members should speak is central to each one and I therefore hope that it will only from the horseshoe. Members may speak only if remain a priority. Let us look first at climate change. they are on the call list. That applies even if the debate is Climate change adversely impacts food systems, but undersubscribed. Members may not join the debate if food systems also emit 20% to 30% of global greenhouse they are not on the call list. I remind Members that they gas emissions, so the Foreign Secretary will need to look must arrive for the start of a debate in Westminster at reforming food systems to become both climate-smart Hall—obviously, you are all here, so this is just for and nutrition-sensitive. future reference—and Members are not expected to Secondly, on covid-19, we have all been thrilled by the remain for the winding-up speeches, but are certainly news of the vaccines, the administering of which started not discouraged from remaining for them. this morning. However, vaccines are often less effective on malnourished people. An article in The Telegraph, 9.31 am which I must confess I am not an avid reader of, confirmed that that is likely to be the case with any David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP): I beg to move, covid-19 vaccine. Malnutrition is also a risk factor for That this House has considered the Foreign, Commonwealth developing severe covid-19 symptoms. and Development Office’s role in tackling global malnutrition. It is, as ever,a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Thirdly,ongirls’education,malnutritiondisproportionately Mr Davies. I thank the Backbench Business Committee affects girls, and it is estimated that malnourished children for granting the application in my name and that of the are 19% less likely to be able to read at the age of eight right hon. Member for Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and and 13% less likely to be at the appropriate grade for Tweeddale (David Mundell). We originally sought the their age. Put simply, the Government cannot meet their debate pre-lockdown as co-chairs of the all-party objectives on girls’education without prioritising nutrition. parliamentary group on nutrition for growth. The group Fourthly, on resolving conflicts and alleviating crises, has been campaigning now for almost two years for the conflicts and malnutrition mutually reinforce each other. UK Government to make a strong early pledge on It is no coincidence that 80% of stunted children live in nutrition for growth, with the reliable multi-year funding conflict zones, so any UK aid programmes in a fragile and policy reforms that will increase the impact of the context must invest in long-term nutrition improvement. FCDO’s work. Finally, on the issue of strengthening accountability To be honest, I rather hoped that the campaign and value for money, according to the Independent would be complete by now. The N4G summit was Commission for Aid Impact, nutrition is one of the supposed to take place this month, and we hoped that most cost-effective development actions with significant the UK would have pledged early. The summit has economic returns. If the Minister wants to invest in understandably been postponed by a year as a result of proven high-impact interventions that represent excellent the pandemic. In the meantime,however,UK commitments value for money, nutrition is very much a safe bet. The on nutrition expire at the end of 2020, just as covid-19 is fact that nutrition is so foundational is what makes it so causing malnutrition cases to skyrocket. important, but it also makes it a challenge to invest in. Up to 10,000 more children are predicted to die Nutrition is relevant to health, education, agriculture, because of undernutrition each month in 2020 than was economic development and climate. Without processes predicted pre-covid-19. Stunting, which before the pandemic in place to ensure that nutrition is embedded into the affected one fifth of children under the age of five, is set Department’s work in those areas, there is, I am afraid, to rise dramatically unless urgent action is taken. Therefore, a real risk that nutrition becomes everyone’s problem, we are not where we wanted to be at this stage, but that but no one’s responsibility. is understandable. Covid-19 has disrupted the FCDO’s There are numerous cost-free steps that the Minister work in the N4G process in a way that none of us could could take to ensure that nutrition is more effectively have foreseen. We did meet the Minister back in May, embedded across the FCDO’s work. First, will she and she assured us that progress was being made. I hope re-commit to reach 50 million women, adolescent girls 309WH Global Malnutrition: FCDO Role8 DECEMBER 2020 Global Malnutrition: FCDO Role 310WH

[David Linden] have been 0.7% of a smaller amount, anyway, so it is a double whammy. In fact, we get a triple whammy with and children with high impact nutrition interventions the abolition of the Department for International over the next four years? Secondly, will she implement Development, which sends out completely the wrong the policy marker for nutrition across all relevant parts message at this time. It is all well and good telling scare of the FCDO’s work, and set percentage targets for its stories about aid and space programmes in India and work in other areas to meet nutrition outcomes? Thirdly, the such like, but as my friend the hon. Member for will she ensure that at least £680 million-worth of Glasgow East said, this is about life-changing and life-critical FCDO spend in other areas is adapted to include nutrition decisions that have real-life consequences for hundreds, outcomes? thousands and millions of people across the globe. As Such changes would embed nutrition into the FCDO he said, the great tragedy is that the Government would and improve value for money across the piece. However, have some good stories to tell if only they had the basic nutrition financing is also important. Reliable confidence to believe in the importance of development multi-year funding for Governments and implementing aid assistance and overseas development and if only agencies would allow them to plan and maximise value they had the confidence to stand up to the naysayers on for money and impact. We call on the Government to their own side and say, “Actually, this is the right thing pledge at least £120 million each year to nutrition-specific to do, and we have a good story to tell.” interventions between 2021 and 2025. That is less than The UK has indeed been a global leader on nutrition the Government spent on nutrition in 2017-18, but is since it hosted the first Nutrition for Growth summit in ambitious enough to make meaningful progress. Will 2013, which raised more than £17 billion—a 33% uplift the Minister agree to that financial pledge today, or at in global nutrition spending—and rates of malnutrition least set a timeline for when she will make a financial have steadily declined as a result. The number of children pledge? under five suffering from irreversible stunting, which I will wrap up by saying that the UK has been a has lifelong health implications, has reduced from global leader in tackling malnutrition. As a Scottish 170 million in 2010 to 144 million in 2019, although, nationalist MP, it is not my modus operandi to routinely Mr Davies, I think you would agree that a figure of praise the UK Government, but this issue is far too more than 100 million youngsters having lifelong conditions important for party politics. It was the UK Government is horrendous. However, that does mark progress, but that hosted the first Nutrition for Growth summit in covid-19 threatens to undo all those hard-won gains. 2013—the most successful global nutrition summit ever. Many of the world’s poorest people cannot work from Governments, non-governmental organisations and the home and most Governments cannot support them private sector pledged more than £17 billion to end through furlough schemes. Food prices are soaring and, malnutrition, representing a 33% global uplift in nutrition for most people, the threat of hunger and malnutrition spending, and rates of malnutrition have steadily decreased is far greater than the threat of the virus itself. ever since. Additionally,as health systems have redeployed resources The UK can be immensely proud of its record on to address covid-19, other areas of health, such as nutrition. Its leadership has galvanised others and nutrition, have been under-resourced. UNICEF reports meaningfully changed the lives of millions of people a 30% reduction in the coverage of nutrition programmes. around the world, making us all safer and better off, so In some countries, coverage is reduced by as much as I hope the Minister can demonstrate that the UK’s 75%. As a result, an additional 10,000 children will die commitment to leadership will not wane at a time when from malnutrition each month this year. The number of it is more needed than ever. I look forward to her children suffering from wasting—being dangerously summing up on behalf of the Government. underweight—is likely to increase from 47 million to 53 million and the head of the UN World Food Programme Philip Davies (in the Chair): It might be helpful if I warned at the Security Council that covid-19 could lead tell colleagues that I plan to get to the Front-Bench to a famine of biblical proportions. speakers at no later than 10.30 am. I am not setting a Although I recognise DFID’s work to tackle covid-19- formal time limit. I have six people looking to catch my induced food security, food security and nutrition are eye, so, as a guide, if they take eight minutes each, I will not the same thing. None of us wants to bring up a not have to impose a limit. I call Christian Matheson. child exclusively eating carbohydrates because of the obvious health implications. Unless the Government 9.39 am prioritise nutrition alongside their ambitious food security work, they risk turning an immediate economic crisis Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab): It is a into a protracted health crisis. At this critical time, not great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. only is the coronavirus reversing years of progress on I declare an interest because, a couple of years ago, I nutrition, so is the disruption to the FCDO’s work and visited health and vaccination programmes in Ethiopia, to the nutrition for growth process as a whole. and the visit was paid for by the advocacy group, The Tokyo Nutrition for Growth summit at which we RESULTS UK, which has helped me with some of the had hoped the FCDO would renew its commitment to information for my speech today. I congratulate my nutrition has been postponed by a year. The Government good friend, the hon. Member for Glasgow East (David have carried out just a one-year spending review and Linden), on his excellent introductory speech. announced their intention to cut the aid budget, making The context in which we meet today is an unfortunate reliable multi-year FCDO financing of nutrition even one. The Government have recently announced that more difficult. I understand that the Governments of they are walking away from the legal commitment to Canada and Bangladesh have stepped in and are hosting spend 0.7% of gross national income on development an event next week and launching 2021 as a year of aid support, reducing it to 0.5%. Of course, it would action for nutrition. I hope the Minister will attend and 311WH Global Malnutrition: FCDO Role8 DECEMBER 2020 Global Malnutrition: FCDO Role 312WH announce what action the Government intend to take Like the hon. Member for Glasgow East, I am concerned in the year of action. Perhaps she can share her that the pledge has not yet been made and worried that Department’s plans for that event when she wraps up UK support for nutrition faces a potential financial cliff the debate. edge in a few days. This debate provides the Minister I am worried by the cliff edge in the FCDO’s nutrition with an opportunity to respond to those concerns. I commitments at the end of the year. Will the Minister know from my own direct experience of working with share her predictions for what official development her—not in this House, but in Rwanda as part of what assistance will be for basic nutrition from the start of was then the Conservative party’sdevelopment programme, 2021? How will she mitigate the effects of any drop in Project Umubano—her own level of personal commitment nutrition financing and ensure it is for as short as time to development. I also know, from our own meetings as possible? Does she agree that the FCDO will have to with her,that she will pursue this issue, but we need action. prioritise nutrition in order to meet the Government’s As the hon. Member for City of Chester (Christian manifesto commitments to end preventable deaths by Matheson) said, it was recently announced by the Canadian 2030 and ensure 12 years of quality education for every and Bangladeshi Governments that there will be a girl? Will she commit to spending £120 million on virtual event early next week, and I hope that the nutrition-specific interventions each year between 2021 Minister will confirm that she will be part of it. It has and 2025, and will she ensure that spending of at least been styled “a year of action on nutrition” and that is £680 million of the FCDO’s work in other areas includes really what we want to see from this debate today. We nutrition objectives? want to see action and we want to hear about a definitive Will the Minister commit to reaching 50 million timeline for when decisions on nutrition will be announced women, children and adolescent girls with high-impact here in the UK. nutrition interventions? As the hon. Member for Glasgow Obviously, we had hoped that the pledge would have East said, women and girls are disproportionately adversely been made already and that the Nutrition for Growth affected by this particular crisis. Will she develop a summit in Tokyo would have taken place. Although it is nutrition-sensitive investment case, and can she set obviously understandable why that event is not going percentage targets for the FCDO’s work in other areas ahead and has been postponed, the needs of those who to meet nutrition outcomes? If she cannot make any are reliant on UK support cannot simply be postponed. commitment in response to the debate today, I hope The need for UK commitment is clear. Malnutrition that at the very least she will set out a timeline by which is a factor in 45% of all deaths of under-fives worldwide the UK will meet these pledges. and the head of the UN World Food Programme expects With covid-19 wreaking havoc on health systems and another 130 million people to face starvation, and that economies around the world, it is more important than a further 6 million children are likely to suffer wasting. ever that the international community ramps up efforts Stunting, as the hon. Gentleman has already said, causes on nutrition. I hope that the UK can display some of its lifelong health complications and it is set to rise dramatically historic leadership in this space at a time when it is after years of decline. Perhaps most disturbingly, an needed more than ever. However, the Government are additional 433 children are expected to die of malnutrition signalling that they are pedalling back on a commitment every single day. to development and aid. That is the wrong signal at absolutely the wrong time, and the consequences really Further to the appalling human cost of malnutrition are a matter of life and death for millions of people. is the financial cost: a staggering $3.5 trillion to the global economy. The World Bank estimates that, for 9.45 am some countries, up to 11% of GDP is lost each year to otherwise avoidable healthcare costs and reduced workforce David Mundell (Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and productivity. Tweeddale) (Con): It is a real pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. However, we know how to alleviate this. The UK’s interventions have reached over 50 million women of I am particularly grateful to the hon. Member for child-bearing age, adolescent girls and children under Glasgow East (David Linden), not only for his work in five. This, among other successes, has supported a steady securing this debate on the Foreign, Commonwealth reduction in the number of children who were suffering and Development Office’s role in tackling global from stunting from roughly 170 million to 144 million. malnutrition, but for all his efforts as co-chair of the As has been referenced, we need to highlight those all-party parliamentary group on nutrition for growth. successes and the positive impact that has already been As co-chair of that group, I know that he has been at made by our previous commitment. the forefront of the push for a pledge from the Government for a multi-year settlement on nutrition for growth. Moreover,nutrition enables and increases the effectiveness When he and I appeared before the Backbench Business of the UK’s action in other areas, such as health, Committee to argue for this debate, these were not the education, economic development and helping those in circumstances in which we envisaged it taking place, but conflict zones. A malnourished mother-to-be is much we were clear that it was important that this issue is more likely to suffer complications. A hungry child is highlighted. one fifth less likely to be able to read by the time they I commend to you, Mr Davies, and other Members are eight. An adult living with stunting will have greater present an excellent article that appears in The Herald barriers to reaching their economic potential. Those today, which is headed, “Britain must not lose sight of growing up hungry are far more likely to find themselves those who go to sleep hungry”, with the by-line, “For vulnerable to the offers of dangerous groups. many, malnutrition can pose a greater threat than covid”. Nutrition is a keystone of effective aid. It is also I think we have already heard that in contributions to exceptional value for money, which I know is a matter the debate. that you take a great interest in, Mr Davies. As the 313WH Global Malnutrition: FCDO Role8 DECEMBER 2020 Global Malnutrition: FCDO Role 314WH

[David Mundell] Member for Glasgow East (David Linden) said. I am an Irish MP from a contested region. People talk a lot Independent Commission for Aid Impact noted, while about the Union, and it is fair to say that things like offering a green-amber rating, the UK’s nutrition sovereignty, militarism and flags are never going to programmes are one of the most cost-effective development move me politically, but I have been deeply proud of the actions, with significant economic returns. Indeed, research UK’s record on aid spending for many years. For all the suggests that every £1 invested in nutrition spending talk of global Britain and walking on to the world will yield, on average, a £16 return. stage, it is important not to strip back things like this I am proud of the UK’s record on nutrition. Its generosity, like far-sightedness, like multilateralism, which leadership brought us the first ever Nutrition for Growth have been meaningful to so many people. summit in 2013, where Governments, NGOs and the We are now in an economic contraction that is worse private sector united around a common set of objectives than any in living memory—that is not in doubt. However, to end malnutrition and pledged £17 billion to the investment in aid, and particularly in nutrition, is not a cause. From the very positive interactions that we have short-sighted way to spend money, because we know had this year, I want the UK to maintain leadership in that it helps to guard against longer term problems. this field, as I am sure the Minister does too. To that Adequately nourished children will learn better in school, end, I ask her for the following: to recommit to reaching and tackling poverty helps to drain the reservoirs of 50 million women, adolescent girls and children with ill-feeling in which extremism can take hold. We know high impact nutrition interventions over the next four this will make for a safer and more secure world for all years; to ensure that at least £680 million of the FCDO of us. spend in other areas is adapted to include nutrition outcomes; and to commit to spending at least £120 million I had the privilege of working for the NGO Concern per year on nutrition-specific interventions. Worldwide for a decade, until 2015, and then chairing the all-party group on international development during As the hon. Member for Glasgow East pointed out, my time in the Northern Ireland Assembly. I had the that is less than we spent in 2017 and 2018 to account opportunity to see projects from those NGOs in Africa, for the effects of covid-19 on the UK economy, but it is Asia and the Caribbean—to see the impact of UK aid still ambitious enough to make meaningful progress. all around the world. Without such commitments, we will potentially waste the progress that our aid has made in recent years, and We know that fractional cuts in the past have had right at the time when those who need that support need major impacts on programmes. Save the Children has it the most. estimated, based on previous Department for International Development statistics, that the approximately 30% cut in aid spending will mean many reduced programmes. 9.54 am People have spoken about the importance of nutrition, Claire Hanna (Belfast South) (SDLP): I thank the particularly in the first 1,000 days of a child’s life; about Members who have brought forward this debate. This the impact it has on education; and about the impact it year, the Nobel peace prize committee awarded its prize has on gender equality, because we know that most to the World Food Programme, because it wanted to farmers around the world are women, and most will be turn the eyes of the world to the millions of people who feeding their family first. We know about the impact of suffer from, or face the threat of, hunger. It said that nutrition on the efficiency and effectiveness of HIV hunger was used in many cases as a weapon of war and medication, and we know that it is absolutely the founding conflict, and that giving the award was a call to the stone for all other areas of poverty reduction. international community to provide adequately funding The Government have repeated the promise that this to ensure that people would not starve. It said that the is a temporary cut and that they intend to return to the World Food Programme would have been a worthy 0.7% commitment when the financial situation permits. recipient in any year, but in this year the virus has I hope the Minister can commit to writing that into strengthened the reasons to address this issue, including legislation in the same way the initial 0.7% proposal was the need for multilateralism in a time of global crisis. courageously put into law, to assure people that if this The head of the World Food Programme has warned really is just a particular need in the time of covid, a that next year there will be famines of biblical proportions. sunset clause can be put in place to revert whenever The Lancet has reported that the pandemic poses grave finances allow. Even in the context of the cuts, the risks to the nutritional status and survival of children in Government can commit to improving governance and low and middle-income countries, due to the decline in oversight of spending. household incomes and interruptions to health and nutrition and social protection services. That is without It is important to remember why DFID was created dwelling on the worsening impact of climate change on in 1997: the need to separate general overseas policies the most vulnerable. from aid spending in order to ensure that the aid was used in the interests of the most vulnerable and not, as I It is clear to see that, for the first time in many years, believe was the case then, to leverage trade and arms development progress is actually going backwards. This deals. It is important that the Government set out their is the unfortunate context in which the Government priorities for aid more comprehensively,and in consultation have dropped their legal commitment—and, of course, with civil society here and in the countries we will be a manifesto pledge made less than a year old—to protect seeking to help. We have seen the top line of that, and the UK’s aid spending. although everything listed by the Government is good, There is no doubt that the UK has been an enormously there is concern that it does not focus on the needs of generous aid donor over the years, which is something the most vulnerable, and that it has not been worked to be very proud of, and I was struck by what the hon. through in such consultation. 315WH Global Malnutrition: FCDO Role8 DECEMBER 2020 Global Malnutrition: FCDO Role 316WH

The hon. Member for City of Chester (Christian has been costly to the UK. It has been costly to our Matheson) was correct to point out the poor timing of health and the economy. As attention is focused on the abolition of DFID, when civil servants and those controlling the virus, there is a danger that the gains who administer aid were operating in very challenging made globally circumstances. They did not need to be dealing with a “in reducing hunger and malnutrition will be lost.” bureaucratic shake-up. As I said in the Chamber at the Those are not my words, but those of Dr David time, it was also the period when, in the context of Nabarro, the World Health Organisation’s special envoy the Black Lives Matter campaign, we were examining on covid-19, in the context of the 2020 Global Nutrition the UK’s legacy on the world stage. As I say, aid was the Report. most positive manifestation of that. One in nine people in the world are hungry—or The year that we have just had has shown us how 820 million people worldwide. That reveals the scale of connected the planet is, as well as the value of solidarity the challenge if those of us in richer countries really and the power of Governments when they choose to want to ensure that the world is fed. Save the Children invest for good. It is always morally right to support the tells us that a quarter of children in the world today most vulnerable in the world—those in extreme poverty— suffer permanent damage to their bodies and minds and particularly so when their circumstances have been because they do not get the nutrition they need. Some worsened by the pandemic. I do not think it is too late 45% of child deaths in the world are linked to malnutrition. for the Government to do the right thing. Members By 2030, 129 million children will suffer stunting as a have made constructive suggestions about how to continue result of hunger, and in the face of that there are to stand by the world’s poorest, and particularly the concerns about reduced programmes to feed the hungry. world’s poorest children. As we speak there is a food crisis in southern Africa following the worst drought in 35 years, and the number 10 am of people at risk of food shortage is expected to rise to Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP): I 45 million in the coming months. In the face of that, want to begin as others have done by thanking my hon. there are also concerns about reducing programmes to Friend the Member for Glasgow East (David Linden) feed the hungry. and the right hon. Member for Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale That means that international co-operation—all richer and Tweeddale (David Mundell) for bringing forward countries doing their bit, stepping up to the plate and this important debate. Like others, I want to recognise recognising their role in the global village—becomes that, despite the strong feelings on the issue, no one ever more pressing. We in richer countries have a moral wants to diminish in any way, or not give recognition to, duty—I do not think this is controversial—to come the work that the UK Government have done on tackling together and do all we can to invest in nutrition, which global malnutrition up to this point. It is because of the is vital for the development of a strong immune system commitment that the UK Government have shown that and the prevention of protracted health crises. there is now such profound concern about the threats In that context, the 0.7% commitment could not be during the current crisis to the good record that has more important. Due to the unprecedented economic been set. emergency, we were told that the 0.7% commitment had There are growing concerns about the Government’s to be temporarily suspended, but this economic emergency commitment to the overseas aid budget and the fight that we face is alongside the hunger emergency in against world hunger. Many of us voiced concerns developing countries, where millions face starvation. about a diminution of that commitment when the What we need are: forecasts for the total drop in aid Department for International Development was merged spending for nutrition from the start of 2021; an impact with the Foreign Office. The Minister will recall the assessment on the effect that this decision will have on concerns expressed then. We were concerned that there nutrition programs; a plan to mitigate the effects on the would be a reduced focus on international development world’s malnourished; and an assurance, provided to priorities. We feared that diminution, and indeed many the developing world and to concerned people in this even speculated at that time about whether the 0.7% of House and across the UK, that this drop in financing national income invested in aid was itself in danger. We will not be extended. It is alarming, quite frankly, that were told that was nonsense. Indeed, the Foreign Secretary aid spending is being reallocated away from poverty- reaffirmed the UK Government’s 0.7% aid budget alleviation towards projects that cannot be considered commitment as recently as July.Yet it has been abandoned. aid projects, such as diplomacy and building yachts. I The former Prime Minister, David Cameron, condemned think most people in the UK would agree that these it as priorities need to be reassessed. “breaking a promise to the poorest people and the poorest Malnutrition is a violent and corrosive social injustice countries in the world”, that is morally inexcusable and politically and economically and said it was a promise unsustainable. As human beings, we cannot ignore, or “that didn’t have to be broken.” indeed seek to downgrade, the starvation and malnutrition We were told that there was to be no loss of focus and of other people when we are able to help. We cannot that the UK Government’s commitment to the poorest turn our backs or reduce our focus simply because these in the world was not in question, and that it was people live far away.In the longer term, we need integrated, scaremongering and misleading to suggest otherwise. international guidelines on the human right to healthy, But now we fear that there will be a wavering of the nutritious diets, and sustainable food systems, as a commitment. Weface a cliff edge on funding commitments, critical way forward. including the commitment to tackling malnutrition, at Those of us who are lucky enough—and it is luck—to the very time when covid-19 has exacerbated an already live in a richer country were filled with hope and desperate situation. We know that combating covid-19 optimism with the news of a vaccine, which has started 317WH Global Malnutrition: FCDO Role8 DECEMBER 2020 Global Malnutrition: FCDO Role 318WH

[Patricia Gibson] I pay tribute to Concern Worldwide for its long-standing commitment to eradicating malnutrition, as well as the to be rolled out this very day. However, vaccines are all-party parliamentary group on nutrition for growth, harder to deliver, and less likely to be effective, for chaired by the hon. Member for Glasgow East, which malnourished people. In the developing world, diseases has continued to put pressure on the Government to resulting from a lack of calcium, such as rickets, can prioritise the issue. have lasting harm, especially for children, whose bodies As a member of the International Development are still developing. The effects are far reaching, as Committee, I was appalled that the Government saw fit those children are more likely to grow up with their to abolish DFID in the middle of a global pandemic intellectual and economic potential being limited. that has put some of the poorest and most vulnerable Women and girls are most affected by famine, as their people at further risk. DFID was highly regarded as a traditional roles in developing countries make it so. It is world leader in its field and an excellent example of harder for them to survive because they have to care global Britain. However, the decision to scrap the for their families and have to evade sexual violence, if Department and slash our aid budget has damaged the they can, in areas of armed conflict. In some cultures, UK’s standing among our international peers. I am sure women eat last and least, and are subject to domestic Members on both sides of the House will be interested violence as family access to food comes under greater to learn the amount of expenditure on the rebranding strain. exercise that went on between the then Foreign and The World Bank estimates that malnutrition costs Commonwealth Office and DFID earlier this year. some countries in Africa and Asia up to 11% of GDP With more, not less, funding required to meet the each year; that shows us the limiting and damaging increasing demands placed on many countries as a effects of malnutrition in economic terms, as well as in result of the covid crisis, there must now be a clear human terms. commitment from this Government to set out a timeline The truth is that the UK Government’s aid budget for a multi-year financial pledge to tackle global has been cut by £6.9 billion this year alone. All of the malnutrition. That means pledging a minimum of good work that we have talked about—and were happy £120 million each year to support high impact nutrition- to talk about—done by the UK in poorer countries specific programmes over the next four years, which will sadly sits under the shadow of that £6.9 billion cut, at a directly benefit 50 million women, adolescent girls and time when covid-19 rips through developing countries children. I hope the Minister will make urgent policy that are simply not equipped to deal with the consequences commitments to increase the FCDO’s commitment to of that health threat. nutrition programmes. My constituents are rightly proud of the achievements Weneed the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development of UK aid, which has lifted millions out of illiteracy Office to use every diplomatic and financial tool in its and poverty, and provided so much support to some of armoury to ensure that the postponed Nutrition for the poorest communities around the globe. They have Growth summit, in Japan in 2021, is successful and been directly invested in that process. Indeed, data attracts support for financial and policy commitments made available by ONE, a campaigning global movement to end malnutrition. We do not need the international to end extreme poverty and preventable diseases, revealed community to give us warm words; we need the UK on that taxpayers’ money from my Stockport constituents the global stage, leading the effort on the front foot. helped more than 11,000 children receive a decent education, The health pandemic must not and cannot be used as 40,000 people have access to clean water and better a reason for cutting back international aid. In fact, the sanitation, and more than 37,000 people be vaccinated consequence of the pandemic is that in developing against meningitis and pneumonia. countries an additional 433 children are expected to die In 2020, it is shocking that we still have children in every single day, according to The Lancet. It is a cruel this world suffering from malnourishment and starvation. irony to argue that the pandemic means that the UK It is deeply troubling that the figure, far from going must abandon its millennium development goals down, is instead forecast to increase from 47 million commitments. people to 53 million, according to the medical journal Malnutrition is a threat multiplier in developing countries, The Lancet. Furthermore, it is concerning that the since those who are malnourished are likely to have Tokyo Nutrition for Growth summit, which was scheduled lower immune systems, and, with a global health pandemic, to take place this year, has now been delayed to the end the significance of a virus that preys on compromised of 2021. Several Members have made the point about immune systems could not be more profound. I look that summit. forward to hearing what the Minister has to say. I hope The Government’s recent spending review and cuts to to see her embracing the need for the UK Government the aid budget add to the complications and challenges to do their bit on the international stage, tackling global around a meaningful financial commitment from the malnutrition and leading the effort. It is the right thing FCDO to tackle global malnutrition. In light of the to do. Chancellor’s recent announcement to reduce spending from 0.7% to 0.5% GNI, I hope the Minister can assure 10.10 am the House that cuts will not impact nutrition programmes. Navendu Mishra (Stockport) (Lab): It is a pleasure to The reality of not providing that funding is stark. serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. I thank the Malnutrition is a leading factor in 45% of cases of hon. Member for Glasgow East (David Linden) for death of children under the age of five globally, according securing this important debate, which follows hard on to the World Health Organisation. the heels of the Government’s recent announcement of Furthermore, Save the Children estimates that the cut to UK aid, and could not have come soon malnourished children score an average 7% lower in enough. maths and are 19% less likely to read at the age of eight, 319WH Global Malnutrition: FCDO Role8 DECEMBER 2020 Global Malnutrition: FCDO Role 320WH hindering their chances of reaching their full potential part of life for a great many people. People come to me in later life. Nutrition is a cornerstone of learning and regularly for pointers towards a food bank, and I can development, and must be protected. I ask the Minister honestly say that without those initial injections of food whether this Government plan to break their manifesto at that time those people would have been under tremendous commitment to stand up for the right of every girl in the pressure. I thank God for all the food bank volunteers world to have 12 years of quality education, less than a who have dropped food round at people’s doors and year on from the general election and at a time when worked tirelessly to help the community. They must be child malnutrition is rising sharply as a result of the saluted. I salute Richard and Natalie Porter and my covid crisis. local team at the Trussell Trust food bank established at Mr Davies, we had excellent news this morning that the Thriving Life Church, along with all others making the first covid vaccine has been administered in the UK. a difference to people in our community. For the record I am sure that the vaccine will help us overcome the and for Hansard it is also important to thank all the pandemic, but the reality is that it is scientific fact that churches and charities for all that they do. Those teams vaccination is less effective on malnourished people. In have set their goals to reduce malnutrition. Many of the the sixth richest country in the world, we have a moral churches in my area are involved in projects in Swaziland, obligation and responsibility to intervene to alleviate Zimbabwe, Uganda, and Kenya. They do incredible that terrible suffering. A reduction in our financial work there, and we could not do without their work. support is unacceptable and would have long-term Will the Minister indicate in her response what could ramifications for those who find our funding a vital be done to partner and work with the churches and lifeline. We have a duty to act, and we must do so now charities that have their feet on the ground and that may before it is too late for the millions of people who perhaps be able to allocate and distribute the food to desperately rely on us. the people who need it most? I also believe that we have a moral and personal obligation to reach out and help 10.15 am others. It is what we are. It is how we look at things, and Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): It is a pleasure to it is what we wish to do. I congratulate the Government be called to speak on this issue, which I have a great on their historic leadership on nutrition as outlined in interest in. I thank the hon. Member for Glasgow East the 2013 Nutrition for Growth summit and the recent (David Linden) for introducing the debate. He and review of the Independent Commission for Aid Impact I—like many others, I suspect—always feel persuaded into DFID’s, and now the FCDO’s, nutrition work. It is to turn up to speak on issues at Westminster Hall that a known fact that covid-19 has caused malnutrition we feel are important, and it is one of those issues. I rates around the world to skyrocket. The focus has all thank him for the chance to do so. been on covid-19 and some of the other things that we would focus on have not happened, so that is rather I have long been an advocate for our responsibility to disconcerting. Up to 10,000 more children are predicted fulfil our moral obligation and—I believe—our to die each month due to undernutrition in 2020 than compassionate determination towards those less fortunate were predicted prior to covid-19. Again, that underlines than ourselves through the 0.7% aid threshold. I am how important the debate is and underlines as well why open about that and want to put that on record. As we look longingly to the Minister and our Government Christmas approaches, we are probably all thinking for responsibility to help us address those issues. about the special food treats we are going to enjoy, some of them probably to our detriment—that is just by the The number of children suffering from wasting—being way. Have we paused to think of those who perhaps will dangerously underweight—is likely to increase from not have those opportunities to even have a small meal 47 million to 53 million as a result of covid-19. Some of of some sort, while we enjoy the luxuries of what we the adverts we have seen on TV, in particular for Yemen, have in this world? It is sometimes good to reflect on where we see some of those malnourished children, are that and to realise our responsibility for compassion. really very hard to watch. As yet unpublished data We should be reaching out to those who are less well-off, shows that stunted physical and cognitive growth as a indeed to those for whom a meal is not just a meal but result of malnutrition affects some 149 million children their very chance of survival. As we have watched the under the age of 5 and that the figure of 21.9% per cent repercussions of the coronavirus take hold, I have seen before the pandemic is set to rise dramatically unless an increase in the use of food banks in my area. Food urgent action is taken. Now is the time to put the action poverty is a reality for some families in this so-called that Government have promised in place. Let us be western world, and in the western country in which clear: the United Kingdom is committed and we know we live. that. It is the third biggest donor to nutrition programmes Before the debate I had talks with some APPG groups, in the world after the United States and Canada, when and I suspect that the hon. Member for Glasgow East we look at average donor financing to nutrition between probably listed their names, which was why they came 2013 and 2017. Yet again, I take the opportunity to urge to me. They discussed malnutrition, and we have Government to continue displaying leadership in nutrition. malnutrition in this country in some areas. I would have They are doing it, we need to continue to do it and we been unaware of the figures they gave me for my need to encourage others who are not doing it to do it constituency, to be truthful. It is about the food people equally. are eating, the food poverty in which they live, and how I read the APPG’s report on nutrition and it makes a we address those issues. number of calls. I support it in those calls, in that the The first ever food bank in Northern Ireland, from FCDO should recommit to reach 50 million women, the Trussell Trust, was initiated by church groups in my adolescent girls and children with high-impact nutrition constituency, who came together with other groups. interventions over the next four years; to implement the Over the years, that food bank has become an integral policy marker for the nutrition aspect of its work, which 321WH Global Malnutrition: FCDO Role8 DECEMBER 2020 Global Malnutrition: FCDO Role 322WH

[Jim Shannon] The SNP conference at the weekend committed the SNP,in an independent state,to the 0.7% GNI commitment would encourage teams within the FCDO, beyond the on overseas aid. That will be the cornerstone of our nutrition team, to consider the impact they can have on development policy; we believe it is a mark of global nutrition; to utilise the tactical leadership of the nutrition decency. Even with the powers that we have under the team within the FCDO to ensure all teams within the devolved settlement, the Scottish Government have pledged Department understand how nutrition relates to their £2 million to UNICEF efforts in Malawi, Zambia and brief; and to develop a needs and evidence-based nutrition- Rwanda. sensitive investment case. So: recommit, implement, DFID, as was, is based in East Kilbride. Scotland has utilise and develop. a keen interest and support for international development I know that the Minister will be aware that the and related issues. That is why we so much regret the Governments of Canada and Bangladesh are hosting decision by the UK Government to walk away from the the event, as others have said, called Nutrition for 0.7% commitment. We appreciate there are budgetary Growth: Year of Action. The purpose of the event is to pressures—there always are—but to blame the pandemic, launch 2021 as the year of action for nutrition. Would it which is affecting everybody worldwide and the poorest not be great if we were able to turn things around in hardest, as a reason to walk away from that commitment 2021 and have a programme where money could be is, to our mind, a matter of great regret. We hope that committed and make things happen? All Governments we will see a change of course. At least let us prioritise and others around the world should step up in the fight malnutrition within the existing spend. The UK remains, against malnutrition. Given the UK’s historic leadership, of course, a considerable overseas development player. which we greatly appreciate, is the Minister planning to We celebrate that but we are concerned about where it is attend the event or play a part in it if at all possible? I going in future. take the opportunity to urge her to use the event to I will not rehearse points that have already been make a generous governmental pledge to nutrition. made, but will perhaps distil some of the very constructive We can make a difference and I believe we must suggestions we have heard. We believe that the UK ensure that every pound of foreign aid finds its place in must commit to a multi-annual financial pledge to a place of need and is not lost in greed. This is a big malnutrition. The UK’s existing commitments expire in responsibility, but I believe that the Government and a matter of weeks. We hope and expect they will be the Department are up to the task. I look forward to continued, but we would like to see that multi-annual seeing how best we can save lives, bring hope and financial pledge. We would like to see commitment of a encouragement for those who need it and fulfil a global minimum of £120 million a year to malnutrition projects, vision of no child left behind. and we would like to see malnutrition accelerated within existing spend in other areas. 10.23 am We would also like the UK to back enthusiastically the postponed Tokyo 2021 Nutrition for Growth summit. Alyn Smith (Stirling) (SNP): It is a pleasure to serve We believe that global action is necessary and the UK under your chairmanship, Mr Davies, and a great pleasure can play a part within that. We would also like to see the to warmly congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for UK implement calls made in The BMJ by 180 experts Glasgow East (David Linden) for bringing forward this for integrated international guidelines on the human debate on a crucial issue at a crucial time. It is also a right to healthy, nutritious diets. Guidelines can help pleasure to follow so many constructive, sensible, warm- inform development policy, and the more coherent they hearted and powerful contributions from across the are globally, the stronger that effort will be. House. There is a great deal of unity on this issue. We are concerned about the future direction of travel Malnutrition is a devastating condition in its own of the UK Government, but it is not too late to change right, but it is also an aggravating factor in disease risk course. I look forward to the Minister’s comments. If and a threat multiplier occurring with other conditions. we are prioritising spend to help the poorest and By way of context, according to The Lancet, an additional malnourished in our global society, she can rest assured 433 children each day are going to die as a result of the of the SNP’s support. interaction between covid and malnutrition. This is a global pandemic that is affecting everybody, but it is affecting the poorest hardest. Public health has come to 10.27 am the fore like never before and global interconnectedness Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ has never been clearer, so for the UK to be walking Co-op): I begin by thanking the hon. Member for away from its commitment at this time is, to our mind, a Glasgow East (David Linden) and his co-sponsors for matter of great regret. It is stark how, in the “2020 securing such an important debate on such a crucial Global Nutrition Report in the context of Covid-19”, topic. I also commend the work of the all-party David Nabarro, the World Health Organisation special parliamentary group on these issues. envoy on covid-19 has talked sharply of the real risk We have heard powerful and passionate speeches: that from my hon. Friends the Member for City of Chester “as nations strive to control the virus, the gains they have made in (Christian Matheson) and the Member for Stockport reducing hunger and malnutrition will be lost.” (Navendu Mishra); and from the hon. Members for This is a timely debate and I am glad there is so much North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson) and for cross-party unity. As my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast South (Claire Hanna), who spoke powerfully of Glasgow East alluded to, the UK has a good story to her experiences; the SNP spokesperson, the hon. Member tell on this. The UK has not been idle. Our concern is on for Stirling (Alyn Smith); and from the hon. Member the future direction of the UK’s policy and the people for Strangford (Jim Shannon), who always makes a who are in charge of setting and influencing it. powerful contribution on such issues. It is good to see 323WH Global Malnutrition: FCDO Role8 DECEMBER 2020 Global Malnutrition: FCDO Role 324WH him back. I also take this opportunity to commend the the end of 2020. Of course, malnutrition is linked to work of my shadow ministerial colleague, Lord Collins, economic inequality more widely. Rates of being who has done much to highlight these issues and has underweight are 10 times higher in the poorest countries campaigned for global action. in the world than in the richest. Despite the huge advances we have seen in agriculture, We have heard many examples illustrating the global food science and distribution, it should be a profound situation, and I will touch on a few of them. It comes as shame to the global community, including this country, no surprise that, following six years of disastrous civil that so many continue to go hungry and malnourished war, Yemen faces the most acute malnutrition crisis in globally and in this country. We have heard today of the the world. The statistics are absolutely shocking: 12% of wider consequences for education, women and girls, the population are in a critical emergency and 13 million and wider health. people—many of them children—are in food insecurity. As a Co-operative Member of Parliament, this is In South Sudan, 44% of the population are at the most cause close to my heart. I am proud to support the critical phase, and more than 5 million people are Co-operative party’s Food Justice campaign. Since the affected. The Democratic Republic of the Congo, countries covid-19 crisis hit, it has been estimated that 8 million across the Sahel and north-east Nigeria are also affected. people in the UK regularly have trouble putting food on In Zimbabwe, 45% of the population—more than 4 million the table and half a million people are using food banks. people—are at risk. In Haiti, the numbers facing food I know all too well the reality for those facing food insecurity are nearing 4 million—40% of the population. poverty in my community, having volunteered with and Too many turn away and forget. I see it as a particular supported a number of local food banks and delivery tragedy that 36% of the population of Afghanistan—more schemes for the most vulnerable. than 11 million people—face food insecurity. We see food insecurity in more than one in 10 of the population My concern and that of the official Opposition for of Burundi, Ethiopia, Eswatini, Guatemala, Kenya, those going hungry does not end at our borders. I have Lesotho, Malawi, Mozambique, Namibia, Somalia, seen with my own eyes the stark face of hunger and Uganda and Zambia. Of course, there is a conflict near-starvation globally with the World Food Programme ongoing in Tigray in Ethiopia, and the situation across and others. As we have heard, that picture is even more east Africa and the horn of Africa is exacerbated by the stark today, despite decades of progress in tackling locust pandemic, flooding and the impact of conflict on hunger and malnutrition. As the Co-operative party crucial harvests. Food Justice campaign states, the big picture is not that To put it simply, this is exactly the time when the there is too little food; the problem is that people simply world’s poorest need more investment in food security have far too little money. Such is the inequality in and nutrition, not dangerous and life-threatening cuts. our economic system that profound structural change We need more, not less, work on the fundamentals of is fully required to address that. As we have heard, nutrition and food insecurity. As the “Global Nutrition malnutrition is a leading cause of preventable death Report” outlines, we need to build equitable, resilient around the world, and millions are affected by food and sustainable food systems. We need to renew and insecurity. Despite the fact that we live in a world of expand our nutrition commitments at key moments, plenty, one in nine still go to bed every night hungry or such as the crucial Nutrition for Growth summit in undernourished. That is one of the reasons why the Japan next year, leading the way for other countries. United Nations made food security one of the key We heard that, next week, Canada and Bangladesh sustainable goals—the Minister is wearing the badge are holding a virtual summit to launch Nutrition for today. As we celebrate UN Human Rights Day this Growth’s year of action. Will the Minister or one of her Thursday, we must remember the key human right to colleagues be attending, and will the UK Government food and adequate nutrition, as defined by the United make a pledge? Will there be a continuation of nutrition Nations. finance at current levels at least through to 2022, to The United Nations reports that, after decades of ensure that we do not face a cliff edge at the end of steady decline, the number of people who suffer from 2021? In what other ways are the Government working hunger has been increasing slowly since 2015, even with donors around the world to ensure that new before the current crisis and the coming climate change commitments are made at that crucial summit in Japan emergency. It is estimated that, staggeringly, nearly next year? 690 million people are hungry—8.9% of the world’s As has been said many times, the UK can rightly be population, up by 10 million people in one year and proud of its record, under multiple Governments of nearly 60 million in five years. The world is not on track different colours over many decades, on combating to achieve zero hunger by 2030, and if recent trends malnutrition and preventable deaths and preventing continue the number of people affected by hunger and hunger, but promises to tackle malnutrition and hunger malnutrition will surpass 840 million by 2030. in the future are meaningless given how easily manifesto We have heard about many of the causes of that commitments are tossed aside at the whim of the Chancellor increase: man-made conflicts, climate change and economic and the Prime Minister. Will the Minister confirm downturns. In recent weeks, I have had conversations whether, as well as the plan to scrap the 0.7% Act, there with humanitarian agencies operating in South Sudan is a plan to scrap the International Development Act 2002, and Ethiopia—two countries that exemplify those which ensures that our funding is targeted at those who challenges; millions in South Sudan are on the brink of most need it and are at risk of malnutrition and hunger? famine. I was having those conversations on the very I have some specific questions for the Minister. DFID day that the Government decided to slash the funded a multi-organisation programme in south-central 0.7% commitment—what a stark contrast! The covid-19 Somalia to prevent the worst effects of disasters and pandemic could double that number,putting an additional food insecurity in a country where 28% of children 130 million people at risk of suffering acute hunger by under five are stunted. Will that programme continue to 325WH Global Malnutrition: FCDO Role8 DECEMBER 2020 Global Malnutrition: FCDO Role 326WH

[Stephen Doughty] through Government projects, but through civil society organisations and other groups—to tackle a range of be funded, or will it be cut? The Pakistan food fortification issues, including hunger and malnutrition. programme is doing critical work to enhance nutrition Tackling malnutrition continues to be of importance among women—in particular, pregnant women. Will for this Government. Between April 2015 and March that continue after 2021, or will that nutritional support 2020, the UK Government reached more than 55 million for the poorest and most vulnerable women be scrapped? young children, adolescent girls and women in the The World Food Programme appealed for £4.9 billion poorest countries with nutrition support. I was pleased in 2020 to respond to the covid-19 pandemic, yet only to see that the Independent Commission for Aid Impact half of that has been secured. The World Food Programme recently commended us on our work, and noted that the has had to implement prolonged ration cuts, including UK had undoubtedly underestimated its reach and in refugee and internally displaced people’s camps across impact. Preventing and treating malnutrition remains east Africa, including in South Sudan and Syria. The fundamental to achieving the Government’s commitment World Food Programme is clear that its partners do not to end the preventable deaths of mothers, newborns have the funding required to prevent widespread hunger and children by 2030. and famine. What is the UK Government response to Malnutrition is the underlying cause of almost half that World Food Programme appeal at such a critical of all child deaths and one in five maternal deaths. Even time? Will the Minister tell us how much funding for before the coronavirus pandemic, progress to reduce global food programmes has been cut last year and malnutrition was already far too slow, particularly across this year, and how much the Government plan to cut Africa and south Asia. There is concrete evidence that next year? the indirect effects of covid-19 are increasing malnutrition As I said, I have witnessed the impact of hunger and risk and threatening to reverse the gains that have been malnutrition at first hand. I have stood talking to made. My Department, the FCDO, is closely monitoring villagers in Malawi as they queue for hours, waiting for the effect on nutrition. Many countries are reporting a few basic bags of grain, while I am able to return to significant disruptions to key nutrition services, particularly my comfortable hotel in the evening and eat well. I have breastfeeding support, delivery of vitamin A and iron-folate seen impoverished street children in Kabul in Afghanistan. supplements, and treatment for acute malnutrition. Those I have met women from Zimbabwe forced to sell themselves disruptions will undermine the nutrition of the most for sex so that they can feed their children. I have vulnerable women and children in the world, and increase spoken to young people who have had their education the number of people who die. disrupted or ended completely by having to return to till At the end of 2019, 135 million people in 55 countries the fields for meagre returns, simply to help their family and territories already faced acute food insecurity.Experts subsist. I have met families who have been ravaged by have estimated that as a result of the pandemic, acute HIV/AIDS, through want of not only medicine but malnutrition has increased by 14%, resulting in an basic nutrition. I have met those whose lives have been additional 125,000 child deaths. Good nutrition is central torn apart by conflict originating in battles over scarce to health, educational outcomes and poverty alleviation. resources such as food and water, which are likely to be A two-year-old who has received the basic nutrients exacerbated as the climate emergency gathers place. they need in their early years is 10 times more likely to I put it to the Minister that as global Britain, we have overcome the most life-threatening childhood diseases. a choice, we have a moral duty, and we have an imperative They are also set to remain in school four years longer to act in our common interest to lay the foundations for than their undernourished counterparts and to go on to mutually beneficial growth, education and health, and earn more and have healthier lives and families. Every to remove the conditions that drive conflict and migration, £1 invested to prevent malnutrition brings returns of with people fleeing the poverty, hunger and malnutrition £16 in increased productivity, so it is imperative that that we have heard described so passionately in today’s steps are taken to stop the current deterioration and to debate. This is not the time to undermine our commitments help countries get on track to achieve the 2030 target to on nutrition and hunger, at the very time when all that end malnutrition in all its forms. progress risks reversal. The UK Government are addressing this global challenge in three major ways. First, we are prioritising and 10.37 am continuing foreign investment in essential nutrition services, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign, with a focus on countries experiencing the greatest Commonwealth and Development Affairs (Wendy Morton): shocks, including the impacts of covid-19. This includes Let me start by saying that I am really grateful to the highly cost-effective interventions such as breast-feeding hon. Member for Glasgow East (David Linden) for support and acute malnutrition treatment in countries having secured this morning’s debate, and to all right such as Somalia, South Sudan, Yemen and Ethiopia. hon. and hon. Members for their contributions. I thank We are also supporting programmes to deal with the everyone for their recommendations and the thoughts chronic drivers of malnutrition in countries such as they have shared this morning regarding our future Zambia and Malawi. I personally made sure that our approach, and I am deeply grateful to all those who are support to the Power of Nutrition financing facility was working tirelessly on this vital issue. I am reminded of prioritised, so that this essential initiative can continue the APPG meeting that we held earlier in the year. I am to save lives and avert malnutrition in countries such as also reminded by my right hon. Friend the Member for Tanzania and Liberia. Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale (David Mundell) Secondly,in September,the Foreign Secretary appointed of the many visits that I have made to Africa over the the UK’s first special envoy for famine prevention, Nick years with Project Umubano, where I have seen at first Dyer. This is a clear signal that this Government are not hand some of the work that is taking place—not just prepared to look away as conflict, climate shock and the 327WH Global Malnutrition: FCDO Role8 DECEMBER 2020 Global Malnutrition: FCDO Role 328WH coronavirus pandemic put millions at risk of large-scale are predicted to increase malnutrition, particularly across food insecurity and malnutrition. Alongside this, we Africa and Asia. Over the past year, nutrition services launched a £119 million package of support to avert have been prioritising many FCDO country programmes, famine and food insecurity,which included a new five-year including in Ethiopia, Somalia, Zambia and across the £30 million partnership with UNICEF to transform Sahel, to help to reduce the negative impacts of how acute malnutrition is prevented and treated. This the pandemic. We have also supported Governments in will enable at least 4.3 million children each year in the Scaling Up Nutrition movement to adapt their own Africa and Asia to access essential nutrition services. responses. Thirdly, turning to Nutrition for Growth and the Some Members raised the issue of vaccines in this Canada event, to which many Members have referred to debate, and I think it is important to recognise that today, we remain firmly committed to working with the malnourished children have been shown to have a less Government of Japan as they prepare for the next effective response to some, but not all, vaccines. Clearly, Nutrition for Growth summit. 2021 will be an important averting malnutrition is a sensible strategy to underpin year for galvanising action to address malnutrition and any vaccination programme. I look forward to joining the Government of Canada at Girls’ education was mentioned by several Members, their event on 14 December to launch the Year of including the hon. Member for Stockport (Navendu Nutrition for Growth. I am grateful for their leadership Mishra). The UK is a global leader when it comes to and support on this important issue. However, it is very girls’education. Helping poor countries to provide 12 years clear that the scale of the global nutrition challenge of good-quality education, particularly for girls, is a top needs a wide and diverse coalition of support. It cannot priority for this Government. We know that for children and should not only fall to Japan, Canada and the UK to learn they need the right nutrients, and that malnutrition to deal with this global challenge. An essential part of disproportionately affects women and girls, preventing our role is making the case to broaden the support base. many girls from attending school and hindering the It is incumbent on our partner Governments, the private potential of those who do. I recall on some of my visits sector and the multilateral system also to step forward. to Africa actually teaching in schools and visiting schools Nutrition investment is fantastic value for money, as and seeing the difference that a child having had something many Members have highlighted. to eat could make to their ability to learn. The House will be aware of the difficult decision that The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) the Government announced recently to reduce the aid touched on partnership working. Let me assure him budget to 0.5% of gross national income. I am conscious that we work with a range of partners to deliver our Members have raised this point during the debate. I nutrition programmes. In countries such as Nigeria, we have to say this was a difficult, but temporary decision. work very closely with faith-based groups to ensure that It is our intention to return to the 0.7% target as soon as we reach those in need. the fiscal situation allows. In 2021, we will remain one of the most generous G7 donors, spending more than Jim Shannon: If those church groups and charity £10 billion to fight poverty, tackle climate change and groups that do very specific physical work in some of improve global health. We will also do aid better across the countries that I mentioned want to be partnered Government; even though the budget is smaller, we will with Government officials to ensure that that happens, deliver it with greater impact for every £1 that we spend. is it possible for the Minister to give me some contacts, Some 93.5% of UK aid will come under FDCO or give us all contacts, whereby we could perhaps bring leadership— them together?

Stephen Doughty: I do not doubt the Minister’spersonal Wendy Morton: I undertake to respond to the hon. commitment on these issues, which she has shown over Gentleman directly on that very specific point. many years. Obviously, what we have heard about the aid cut is deeply concerning. I have some doubts that During the debate, we have raised the situation in the cut is temporary, particularly given the scrapping of various countries around the world that are experiencing the relevant legislation, but I asked the Minister a food shortages and challenges with nutrition. I want to specific question about the International Development pick up on a couple of specific places. One is the Sahel, Act 2002. Will she rule out changes to that Act, because where our support will provide nutrition screening to it is the focus in that Act that ensures that our aid is 526,250 children and mothers in that region. That will spent, by whatever Department, on the most crucial include emergency malnutrition response treatment for challenges, such as nutrition and hunger? almost 26,000 children with severe acute malnutrition. Yemen is a country that was specifically mentioned by several Members. As my right hon. Friend the Foreign Wendy Morton: I know that the hon. Gentleman will Secretary warned in September, Yemen has never looked seek to press me on this matter. I reiterate that we will more likely to slide into famine. Food prices in some remain one of the most generous G7 donors, even areas have risen by 20% since the start of 2020. The UK though we will spend 0.5 % of our GNI rather than the has shown leadership and responded to the crisis. We 0.7%, and as soon as the fiscal situation allows, we will have committed £200 million this financial year, including revert to 0.7%. It is a temporary reduction. an extra £30.8 million in new funding for famine prevention I still have a bit of time left, so I want to respond to in September. That takes our total commitment to more one or two more specific points raised by hon. Members. than £1 billion since the conflict began in 2015. This One was the link between covid-19 and nutrition. It is financial year,we are providing the World Food Programme an important secondary impact for us all to be aware of. with £58 million to provide vital food assistance, meeting Malnourished people are likely to be more severely the immediate food needs of more than 500,000 Yemenis affected by covid-19, and the wider impacts of covid-19 each month. 329WH Global Malnutrition: FCDO Role8 DECEMBER 2020 Global Malnutrition: FCDO Role 330WH

[Wendy Morton] proportions.She also questioned how the UK Government’s recent move ties in with their commitment to a global Preventing and treating malnutrition will remain a Britain. core part of what we do, given its vital contribution to My hon. Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and health and wellbeing as well as to education and to Arran (Patricia Gibson) was right to quote the former ending poverty. I will be happy to update the House Prime Minister, David Cameron—not someone I would again on our approach to malnutrition in 2021, prior to normally quote in the House of Commons. I was struck the Tokyo Nutrition for Growth summit. There remains by the tweet that he put out on the day of the spending no doubt that addressing malnutrition in the poorest review when he said that we share this planet with some countries of the world is the right thing to do. Even in of the poorest people in the world and now is not the these difficult times, we will endeavour to do what we time to turn our backs on them. can to reach those most at risk. The real power of the The hon. Member for Stockport (Navendu Mishra) new Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office spoke about his experience on the DFID Select Committee is that we can now tackle global challenges like this by and his regret that it has been abolished. Because of a combining our world-leading aid expertise with our malfunction with my hankies—hon. Members will see diplomatic strength. In doing so, we will still be able to that I am falling apart with a cold—I had to leave help millions of people escape the terrible impact of during the speech of the hon. Member for Strangford malnutrition. (Jim Shannon), and I apologise to him. He was right to speak about a moral obligation and reminded us that 10.51 am many people across the world will not enjoy a Christmas David Linden: I thank everyone for the strong cross-party dinner. representation that there has been in the debate. No I say to the House—this point will not be lost on fewer than five political parties have contributed to a those watching in Scotland—that these days there is Westminster Hall debate. When our minds are sometimes little to unite Members from the Scottish Conservative on other issues, that is not insignificant. party and the Scottish National party, but the fact that I thank the hon. Member for Cardiff South and the right hon. Member for Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale Penarth (Stephen Doughty) for referring to Lord Collins and Tweeddale and I have managed to put our parties’ of Highbury. He has been a stellar champion in the politics on domestic issues and the constitution aside to other place and helpful to me and the hon. Gentlemen campaign on nutrition should send a strong message to in the work that he does in the all-party parliamentary the Government. The biggest thing that divides me and group. the right hon. Gentleman is his belief that the UK and All Members have put on record the need for the Scotland are somehow better together. I will never agree multi-year financial pledge. I very much welcome what with him on that, but we can all agree that when it the Minister said about her commitment to attending comes to the issue of vaccines in tackling malnutrition, the Canada summit. I hope that the UK Government we are very much better together. will take the opportunity to make an early pledge. When we applied for this debate, I thought about We heard excellent contributions, starting with that how it was not a covid-related issue—“My goodness; from the hon. Member for City of Chester (Christian how will this look in Westminster Hall?”—but on the Matheson), who spoke about his regret at the reduction day when vaccines are being rolled out across the United of the target from 0.7% to 0.5%. I hope that the UK Kingdom, we are reminded of the importance of good Government will clarify when we will return to a target nutrition, so the timing could not have been better. I say of 0.7%. The right hon. Member for Dumfriesshire, to the Minister that we should not look at this issue in Clydesdale and Tweeddale (David Mundell) spoke about silos as we go forward. Let us tackle it as a team and the financial costs of malnutrition at £3.5 trillion. I have make sure that we understand how vaccines and nutrition often thought that in order to explain to Ministers why go hand in hand. That is why it is so important that we the issue is so important, we should sometimes cite the get a multi-year funding pledge. If the Minister commits economic cost. The right hon. Gentleman was right to to that, she will have the support of the whole House say that the financial cost is staggering. He said that for and every party in here. every £1 invested, we get £16 in return. Question put and agreed to. The hon. Member for Belfast South (Claire Hanna) Resolved, is no longer in the Chamber, but she spoke about her That this House has considered the Foreign, Commonwealth experience of working in this field for 10 years and and Development Office’s role in tackling global malnutrition. about working on the issue in Stormont. She was right to refer to the concerns of the World Food 10.56 am Programme about the prospect of a famine of biblical Sitting suspended. 331WH 8 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19: Music Education 332WH

Covid-19: Music Education various instruments in every school throughout this United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, 10.59 am to ensure that we hold on to music’s positive benefits for society? Andrew Lewer (Northampton South) (Con): I beg to move, Andrew Lewer: The hon. Gentleman is right, because That this House has considered the effect of the covid-19 outbreak on music education. no one could have predicted the idea that someone could not blow through an instrument because that It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, spreads particles and so on, and it means that so much Mr Davies. Although I have spoken in many Westminster new work now needs to be focused on this area. Hall debates before, this is my first as the instigator of the debate. The joint approach I am describing was also highlighted When schools teach music and other creative subjects by the Headmasters’ and Headmistresses’ Conference properly,our whole society and economy benefit. Although chaired by Sally-Anne Huang, and the Music Teachers by no means a musician myself, I hugely enjoyed my Association, which is the country’s largest association experiences of music at school, which helped me develop of music teachers. They have made a firm commitment a deep love for classical music. My family have been to work together to advocate for music in all schools. Methodists for over 200 years, and as the preface to the The vast majority of HMC schools already partner celebrated 1933 Methodist hymn book says, with state colleagues in music, but this is a new national partnership, which will allow co-ordination at an enhanced “We were born in song”. level, drawing attention to the essential role played by Music has been part of the national curriculum for schools in the musical life of our nation. This month children aged five to 14 since it was first published in they launched the “Bach to School”teaching and singing 1988-89, and has been recognised as an important part resource led by Gabrieli Roar, which I would encourage of a broad and balanced curriculum by successive all colleagues to investigate further via its website. Governments. Music education needs that recognition again from this Government—perhaps more so now Jane Stevenson (Wolverhampton North East) (Con): than ever before. I declare a former interest as a professional classical There is a wealth of evidence indicating that studying singer who, like many performers, also held down a music builds cultural knowledge, creative skills and peripatetic teaching job in several schools for many improves children’shealth, wellbeing and wider educational years. Does my right hon. Friend agree that music is attainment. Through classroom music, children and essential to build children’s confidence? It benefits a young people develop their skills in making and creating wide range of other academic subjects. The initiative music through performing, composing, improvising, that he described to keep music education going can and responding critically, in an informed way, to music also be found in resources that schools have innovated, from a wide range of genres and traditions. such as #CanDoMusic. There is more scope to support While classroom music forms the foundation of children children whose music education has been adversely and young people’s music education, it is hugely enriched affected by covid-19. by the provision of a wide range of extracurricular opportunities for young people to develop their musical Andrew Lewer: I thank my hon. Friend not only for interests, such as school orchestras, choirs and other her point, but for my promotion to right honourable. I ensembles. Altogether, this is an essential talent pipeline will reflect upon what she has said and how important it for the music industry, which is worth a staggering is that she said it, given that she is a voice of experience £5.8 billion a year to the UK economy. Schools around with a background in the subject, who has knowledge the country are already trying their best to continue to about the subject itself and its wider benefits. That is a provide excellent music education, despite adverse key part of why I brought forward today’s debate. circumstances, and they are bolstered by several bodies that are adopting innovative approaches. In my own constituency, the Northamptonshire Music and Performing Arts Trust, led by Peter Smalley and As the chairman of the all-party parliamentary group comprised of over 300 staff, has worked with over on independent education, I am aware that over 20,000 children and young people in the past year to 650 Independent School Council schools have music deliver the promises of the national plan for music partnerships with state schools, and those partnerships education. NMPAT employs a team of peripatetic staff allow students to attend music lessons at each other’s who visit different schools to deliver teaching projects schools, host joint music events, and send teaching staff and musical experiences. Its headquarters is in my across to share their knowledge and expertise in both constituency; I have visited it and attended their concerts. directions. This helps to foster strong working partnerships I am looking forward to being able to go to those and connections that are increasingly important given concerts again as a way of celebrating our re-emergence the current circumstances. next year. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the hon. With limited experience in the delivery of online Gentleman for bringing this matter to Westminster Hall teaching, NMPAT reacted quickly to deliver a digital for consideration, and I look forward to the Minister’s alternative, to ensure children continued to receive vital reply.Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the undisputed access to music education. NMPAT has asked me to benefits of music within society are at greater risk now specifically raise with the Minister its thanks for the than at any time in history? Does he agree that the job retention scheme, which has been a lifeline for the Government need to step into the breach? Covid-19 staff throughout the pandemic, ensuring children in affects disposable income, which means fewer private Northampton and the county continue to receive the music lessons, so we must offer music education involving music education they deserve. 333WH Covid-19: Music Education8 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19: Music Education 334WH

[Andrew Lewer] and examinations. That has been captured by a report published on 6 December by the Incorporated Society An issue that has been raised with me in numerous of Musicians, titled “The heart of the school is missing”, calls and in meetings, prior to securing this debate, is which I strongly suggest that colleagues and the funding for the adjustments that NMPAT and others Minister read. have had to make for the digital age and the creation of To measure the impact of covid-19, the ISM collated covid-secure environments. I hope the Minister will 1,300 responses from members of the music-teaching consider that in her remarks. Funding for 2019-20 has profession who work in schools across the UK. It not been adequate to cover the costs of the current reveals the detrimental impact that covid has had on situation and there is a need for an uplift in 2020-21, music education. I will set out the headline figures. Ten back to parity to at least 2011 levels. That is even more per cent. of primary and secondary schools do not pressing now we find ourselves where we are. teach class music at all, even though it is a requirement Even prior to covid-19, music education was facing in the curriculum. That is on top of schools reporting significant challenges, including cuts to funding and that, as a result of their lack of access to technology widening gaps between advantaged and disadvantaged and the resources they need to adapt, many children students, particularly when it came to instrumental were not given any music lessons throughout the closure tuition, as we have already heard. There have been of schools. Sixty-eight per cent. of primary school falling teacher training and recruitment numbers, and a teachers and 39% of secondary school teachers stated continuing decrease in the uptake of music examination that music provision had to be significantly reduced to courses. ensure that key parts of the curriculum, such as those The pressure of accountability measures, such as year for exams, are covered due to time pressure as a result of 6 SATs in primary schools and the English baccalaureate, corona restrictions. Extracurricular activities are no or EBacc, in secondary schools, has meant that access longer taking place in 72% of primary schools and to music education has been significantly reduced. For 66% of secondary schools this year. That is partly due example,“Music Education: State of the Nation,”published to the fact that it took time to get guidance on singing, in 2019 by the all-party parliamentary group for music brass and woodwind playing from the Government education, found that more than 50% of responding before schools resumed, and—much more difficult—a schools were not meeting the curriculum requirements lack of access to well-ventilated spaces. in year 6, citing the pressure of statutory tests as a Singing and practical music making have all been contributory factor. Interestingly, those findings were affected. Teachers report that face-to-face instrument supported by observations by Ofsted. lessons are not continuing in 35% of primaries and Since the introduction of the EBacc in 2010, there 28% of secondary schools.Eighty-six per cent. of secondary has been a significant decrease in the uptake of GCSE music teachers report that they have had to rewrite and A-level music. The figures from the Joint Council schemes of work completely due to coronavirus. Sixteen for Qualifications show a 25% decline in pupils taking per cent. of music teachers have had no access to GCSE music and roughly a 43% decline in those taking specialist classrooms, and 43% have to move between A-level music over the past decade. Ofsted’s annual non-specialist classrooms to teach some or all of their report, which is hot off the press and was published on music. One teacher was even quoted as saying that they 1 December 2020, found that had been given 15 B&Q buckets to use as drums in their “not all children were receiving a full and appropriate curriculum” classrooms. and identified “curriculum narrowing” as a concern. An important issue that has become evident because Where the full curriculum is not offered, that often of that is the mental health of staff and the impact that results in inequalities of opportunity for the pupils covid has had on them. Many of the organisations that affected. I mentioned highlighted music teachers’ mental health The Department for Education’s own figures show and wellbeing and the damage that has happened as a that only 82% of the recruitment target for music teachers result of these disruptions and changes. Many of us are was reached in England in 2019-20, and the number of very aware of the mental health implications for virtually music teachers recruited into teaching music since 2010 everybody involved in trying to keep life going as a has decreased by 53%. In the context of the delivery result of the impact of the pandemic. reductions due to covid-19, those trends are likely to Although we face an unprecedented crisis, coronavirus deepen. I know that that will be a concern to colleagues also provides us with a pivotal moment for reflection here and to those in the teaching sector. and an opportunity to reset education policy. We need to begin to implement a strategy that will future-proof Jane Stevenson: Some of these statistics are worrying music education for future students and reverse the and make the national plan for music education even trend of music education being sidelined. As my hon. more important. Can the Minister commit to a date for Friend the Member for Wolverhampton North East a revised national plan? My hon. Friend also raised (Jane Stevenson) said, the national plan for music education funding issues. Can the Minister give a date to agree was first published in 2011. It established music education future funding for music hubs, which face significant hubs, which provide opportunities to sing and learn challenges over the next few years? instruments in addition to classroom music. Following a consultation in March 2020, a refreshed plan was due Andrew Lewer: I am sure the Minister has heard that. to be published this autumn, with the aim of levelling The coronavirus pandemic has had and will continue up musical opportunities for children from all backgrounds. to have an impact on all aspects of music education: The Government are due to publish the new national curriculum entitlement, singing in schools, music making, plan for music education, and when that document is and especially extracurricular activities,learning instruments released, schools need to be informed of their role so 335WH Covid-19: Music Education8 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19: Music Education 336WH that they are fully engaged as part of their own local School and music organisations need clarity on the music education hubs. I hope the Minister will consider national music grant funding from March 2021, and that. The need for the joy of music to herald our these additional costs need to be borne in mind. Music emergence from this terrible time only serves to underline is a key entitlement for young people, and it contributes the need for particular departmental focus on it in the positively to the health and wellbeing agenda for the way I have suggested. current generation. The pandemic also offers the opportunity to revisit I ask the Minister and the Department to remind the nature and purpose of assessments in ensuring that schools of their obligations to provide a broad and young people are equipped for the future. In the short balanced curriculum under the Education Act 2002 and term, the Department for Education needs to guarantee the Academies Act 2010, of which music is a vital part. that pupils sitting music assessments in summer 2021 I also ask them to reinforce the scientific findings on, are not disadvantaged by the pandemic but are rewarded and the subsequent recommendations for,the safe delivery for their achievements. of curriculum and extracurricular music, and to look to a day—it will be a day on which we will all celebrate—when Jane Stevenson: That steady progress, which takes a all of the restrictions will be stopped and we will number of months or years, is an essential element of abolish forever the expression “the new normal” and get learning an instrument or taking singing lessons, and I back to a proper normal in which we can all live and am very concerned about the mental health of students flourish. who, no doubt, will feel deflated at not being able to Finally, I am concerned that the Government have make the progress that they have worked so hard to removed music from the list of the initial teacher training achieve. I seek reassurance from the Minister on behalf bursaries on offer for 2021 and 2022. The need to of those children who will sit practical music exams attract the finest musicians into teaching is the greatest over the coming year and possibly next year. Will the that it has ever been, and schools are the only place grading process take into account the significant where young people are guaranteed to receive music interruption to the progress of those many music students? education. The surest way of achieving that is through the continuing recruitment of outstanding music teachers. Andrew Lewer: My hon. Friend makes a key point How important is all of this? It could not be more about an area in which practical and helpful steps can important. As Beethoven himself put it: be taken relatively easily. Concessions such as scaling “Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy. down the requirements of the practical elements of Music is the electrical soil in which the spirit lives, thinks and exam courses have been put in place for music qualifications. invents.” However, the content and assessment requirements for many EBacc subjects have not yet been changed. That 11.19 am puts pressure on schools to focus their available time on The Minister for Universities (Michelle Donelan): I prioritising those subjects, which can create an unnecessary congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Northampton and unhelpful hierarchy of subjects—and a questionable South (Andrew Lewer) on securing this debate on such hierarchy at that. an important topic. I stress that the Government remain I know that the ISM is concerned that Her Majesty’s committed to music education during this very challenging chief inspector of schools told the Education Committee time, for the reasons that he himself outlined—to build on 10 November that, in 2021, exams could take place creative skills, health and wellbeing. Those things will for core subjects, with centre-assessed grades for other all foster the next generation of innovators, creators, subjects. If that happens, it would lead to a further artists and much, much more. devaluing of arts subjects, which in turn would cause Music and the arts form a vital part of children and severe damage to music departments that already feel young people’s education. In fact, the best schools in under threat. the country combine a high-quality creative arts and Furthermore, the Government must address the ongoing cultural education with excellence in core academic narrowing of the curriculum, which is happening as a subjects. We are committed to ensuring that pupils in result of reducing accountability measures both in primary England continue to access both. Music education remains and in secondary schools. We have an opportunity after a central part of a broad and balanced curriculum. covid-19 to build a curriculum that puts young people’s That is why it is a statutory subject, from age five to 14, needs first and that champions creative learning as well in the national curriculum, and why pupils in maintained as science, technology, English and maths. We need to schools have an entitlement to study at least one arts capitalise on that opportunity. subject in key stage 4. In conclusion, the purpose of securing this debate Although only maintained schools are required to was to raise awareness of a sector that in some instances teach the national curriculum, academies are also expected gets overlooked. As I am sure the Minister would to teach a curriculum that is similar in breadth and expect, I also have some general asks. As I mentioned ambition. My hon. Friend referred to music teacher earlier, funding for 2019-20 has not been adequate in recruitment and concerns regarding bursaries. I am the current situation and there is a need for an uplift in pleased to inform him that from 2020-21, the initial 2020-21, to attain parity with 2011 levels. This is not teacher training census shows that we have provisionally just a general request for funding, but a specific one recruited 483 postgraduate trainee music teachers—that because of the particular circumstances faced by this is 125% of the post-graduate ITT target for music. The sector as a result of the restrictions that have been bursaries and incentives are reviewed regularly to ensure placed on it and the subsequent costs it has incurred. I that we are filling the skills gaps and needs. They might ask the Minister to look at funding levels in the light of be put back in place at later dates but there are positive that experience. signs at the moment. 337WH Covid-19: Music Education8 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19: Music Education 338WH

[Michelle Donelan] and the Music Teachers Association, along with the Musicians’ Union, also acted quickly to help their The Department for Education invested nearly members. £500 million between 2016 and 2020 on a diverse portfolio The situation has been very different in the autumn of music and arts education programmes. That includes term, with schools open, but we set out additional £300 million for music education hubs that provide guidance, given the risk of infection in environments specialist music education services to around 90% of where singing and the playing of wind or brass instruments state schools. Almost £120 million has been given to the take place. That advice was informed by DCMS guidance music and dance scheme that currently supports more on performing arts, informed by the latest scientific than 2,300 exceptionally talented children and young advice from SAGE, to give schools and educators the people. confidence to continue with lessons and workshops, given the importance of the activity.Guidance for schools The Department works closely with the Department includes comprehensive advice on music, drama and for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport. Together the two dance, including on social distancing, additional safeguards Departments co-fund a wide range of national music for singing and playing wind or brass instruments, programmes for young people, led by the Arts Council, groups for ensemble, and handling equipment and musical providing a total of £3 million in the financial year instruments. In parallel, the Department published advice 2020-21. That includes seven national youth music on music and the performing arts in our guidance for all organisations, such as the National Youth Orchestra other educational settings, including out-of-school settings and the National Youth Jazz Collective; the In Harmony such as school clubs, tutors and other organisations project, which aims to inspire and transform the lives of that provide supervised activities for under-18s. children in six areas in England, through community-based orchestral music making; and the Music for Youth I recognise that the national restrictions brought new project, which provides opportunities for young people challenges for some providers of music education, such and families to perform in and attend festivals and as private music tutors and performing arts organisations concerts. that run supplementary schools in the evening and on weekends. That face-to-face activity was permitted only In January, the Department for Education announced if the primary purpose was to enable parents to work, a further £80 million investment in music education seek work or undertake education or training, or for hubs for the financial year 2020-21, to ensure that all respite or care for vulnerable children and home-educated children, whatever their background, have access to a children. Those specific conditions have been an important high-quality music education, which, as we have heard part of reducing the spread of the virus and, as hon. today, is so vital. I stress again that the Government Members will know, they have now been lifted and the remain committed to supporting music education. We general exemption for all supervised activity for under-18s will provide shortly an update on funding for the financial applies to all tiers. year 2021-22. I am afraid I am not at liberty to do that The past months have been challenging, to say the today. least, and hon. Members have pointed out the impact on music education and learning. However,I am encouraged My hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton by the resourceful response from our educators and I North East (Jane Stevenson) referred to the national wish to thank all 120 music education hubs and their plan. As we know, the national plan of 2011 set out our dedicated staff for all they have done to adapt and vision for music education. We will be refreshing that innovate in that time. The swiftness of their response as and consulting widely. I urge everybody to input into the pandemic escalated was, quite frankly, remarkable. that consultation. We can expect an announcement in Never has it been more important for children to have the coming months. music in their lives, and the hubs helped ensure that that The Government have continued to support schools continued. to deliver a broad and ambitious curriculum, including Music education hubs provide an important service music, since the start of the pandemic. In the previous to the vast majority of state-funded schools, with specialist academic year, our teachers worked tirelessly to support teachers providing expert advice and support to classroom the majority of pupils through remote education from teachers, music tuition to individual pupils and directly March, and priority groups of pupils were supported supporting whole-class ensemble teaching—a cornerstone through the gradual easing of national restrictions from of a high-quality music curriculum. The Government June into July. recognise that one of the most significant impacts on the sector of the spring lockdown was the reduction in Similarly, teachers and leaders of music education the money from schools and parents to music education hubs, specialist schools and training centres funded by hubs. That is why the Government took steps to ensure music and dance schemes, and the leaders of our national that music education hubs were eligible to apply for the music programmes, transformed their support to allow Government’s£1.57 billion cultural recovery fund, launched children and young people to engage remotely in music by DCMS and administered by Arts Council England. making,overcomingthoselogisticalandtechnicalchallenges As a result, 12 music education hubs secured a total of highlighted by my hon. Friend the Member for more than £3.5 million in additional funding. Northampton South. They were able to support the We will also announce shortly an additional package remote learning. In addition, the Department assisted of support provided by Arts Council England to struggling with the introduction of several initiatives for schools music education hubs, such as the Northamptonshire and parents, including establishing the Oak National Music and Performing Arts Trust mentioned by my Academy to provide direct curriculum support to schools hon. Friend the Member for Northampton South. He from a range of online resources.Professional organisations also flagged that it had benefited considerably from the such as Music Mark, the Incorporated Society of Musicians covid job retention scheme, which is important to note. 339WH Covid-19: Music Education 8 DECEMBER 2020 340WH

All of that, once again, demonstrates the importance Future of Pensions Policy the Government place on music education and that we have stepped up, as the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) requested. I hope that hon. Members [MR STEWART HOSIE in the Chair] present are left in no doubt that the Government’s commitment to music education is solid. I will end by 2.30 pm once again thanking all of the teachers, those working Rob Roberts (Delyn) (Con): I beg to move, in music hubs and the music education sector at large for their hard work throughout the past few months, That this House has considered the future of pensions policy. which has enabled so many children to continue to It is an honour to serve under your chairmanship, access, enjoy and learn music, no matter their background. Mr Hosie. There is an old saying that people should not talk about politics or religion; I sometimes wonder Question put and agreed to. whether that extends to the topic of pensions as well. While saving for a house or car is seen as exciting and a 11.28 am real achievement—and rightly so—the same enthusiasm Sitting suspended. and planning is never given when people are saving for their retirement. It is time such attitudes around pensions andplanningforretirementchanged.Pensionsarebecoming increasingly important and we need to talk about them, both here in Parliament and in the wider public domain, if we want people to feel empowered to make their own decisions about their future, and secure a retirement that they deserve. People are living longer, and the state pension age has increased, but discussions and debates around pension policy and infrastructure have not moved on in any significant way. A recent study found that 22 million working-age adults do not feel that they understand enough about pensions to make decisions about saving for retirement, highlighting that we need to do more to ensure that people feel informed and empowered to do that saving. The fact that 5 million people in retirement are not satisfied with their financial circumstances proves that more needs to be done to ensure people take steps earlier so that their later years are more comfortable and secure. Only 38% of seven to 17-year-olds say that they have learned at school how to manage money, which showcases that the lack of knowledge and awareness about savings and pensions starts right at the beginning. This tells us that we need to be having frank and honest conversations about pensions much earlier in people’s lives. It is not enough to start discussing savings and retirement at 60; it needs to be happening in education, in the workplace, at key moments in life, and also here in Parliament. Today’s debate, I hope, is the first of many important and crucial conversations around pensions and how we, as parliamentarians, can look to shape pension policy in a positive way in the years to come. I am going to touch on a couple of broad themes, the majority of which the Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman), can respond to, while I appreciate that some of the topics—although relevant—may be for the Treasury to consider rather than my hon. Friend. Although it is hugely important to start conversations about pensions and retirement as early in life as possible, it would not be right to hold a debate on pensions policy without first looking at how we can help pensioners who may already be struggling. Sadly, pensioner poverty is a real problem across the UK. While it may have decreased over the past 20 years—I commend the efforts of the Minister and the Department in their work on this—Age UK found that 1.9 million pensioners are still living in poverty in the UK. That means that over a quarter of pensioners, despite having worked all their 341WH Future of Pensions Policy8 DECEMBER 2020 Future of Pensions Policy 342WH

[Rob Roberts] pandemic, we need serious, fundamental change if we want pension credit to play its part in eradicating pensioner lives, paid their taxes and contributed to our economy, poverty and helping the poorest households. I want the are now living their later years facing more challenging Government to consider their role in boosting take-up decisions than they necessarily should, wondering whether by making it an automatic benefit that solely considers they can afford to turn the heating on or pay their bills, income. and watching how every penny is spent. While pension credit is one important issue that the It does not have to be that way. Many pensioners will Government should review as we look to bring positive be eligible for pension credit: a financial lifeline that change, many other areas would also benefit from tops up their income and prevents them from having to innovation and further development. One such area is make those difficult decisions, such as keeping warm in the auto-enrolment regime.Auto-enrolment was introduced their home or having a good meal. Pension credit is also by the Government to improve pension savings in the a gateway to other benefits that make a real difference UK, and it has worked, reversing the decline of workplace to pensioners’ quality of life, including cold weather pension saving. Prior to the start of auto-enrolment, the payments, NHS dental treatment and, topically, free TV number of eligible employees who enrolled was 10.7 million. licences for those over 75. Quite simply, pension credit That has now increased to almost 19 million—almost gives older people the financial stability and security to 90% of those eligible. live their lives in a much more worry-free manner. While that confirms the success of its original aims, It is also important to note that, while pension credit instead of engaging the wider public in taking an active makes a huge difference to many individual pensioners’ role in their workplace pensions, being auto-enrolled lives and well-being, it also benefits the whole of society. has meant that the vast majority of savers assume they Research from Independent Age estimates that the cost will automatically have a large pension pot when they to the Government of those eligible for pension credit, retire. However, that is often not the case, and we have but not taking it, is around £4 billion a year in increased added a layer of what I will call complacency risk into NHS and social care spending, so it is imperative that the mix of other issues to consider. It is the risk that we either get the implementation of this benefit right, people will assume that the pot they are building up is or reform it altogether. going to get them a particular lifestyle in retirement, The question is: does the benefit work effectively for which may not always match reality. the people it is supposed to serve? Currently, it is not Do not get me wrong; auto-enrolment has been fantastic working nearly as effectively as it could, with uptake in getting pensions moving again. I really believe that stagnating at around 60% for the past 10 years. It has we should be looking at what has been done so far as a never been more than 70%. To put that into perspective, starting point rather than an end game. around four in every 10 eligible pensioners are not collecting the free money that is due to them. That means that, at present, around £3.5 billion that is allocated The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work to eradicating pensioner poverty is not reaching older and Pensions (Guy Opperman): I congratulate my hon. people each year. That is, in part, due to awareness of Friend on securing the debate. I accept entirely that this pension credit being low, despite many advertising is a legitimate discussion about the future progress of campaigns by successive Governments. It seems that automatic enrolment, which has transformed savings wholesale reform is necessary to help reach the people it among women and young people to the extent that 80% is designed to help. are now saving, up from 40%. He is right that we are doing better than we have previously done, but it is the The low take-up of pension credit is also due, in part, suggestions for the future that clearly need to take us to the way it is assessed. Instead of being an automatic forward. I support entirely the direction of travel that benefit provided to those who need it, pensioners have he is taking us on. to make a claim when they reach the appropriate age, which considers their income level and savings. That is problematic for a couple of reasons, not least that the Rob Roberts: I thank the Minister for his intervention. process can be seen as daunting, overly complicated and The suggestions for the future are about to unfold difficult to navigate for pensioners. Also, by taking into before his very eyes, as he may have anticipated. account people’s savings pots, it discourages long-term Analysis by the Pensions and Lifetime Savings responsible economic actions such as saving because Association suggests that the current contribution rate people will become ineligible not only for pension credit, of 8% is simply not enough for people to have a good but for other gateway benefits I mentioned earlier on. standard of living in retirement. I fear that will be the We need to have a fundamental change in how pension case for many people in several years’ time who have credit is assessed and claimed. We should be looking to been auto-enrolled into workplace pensions and assume help those who need it most by ensuring that financial that, as the rate is automatically set by the Government, support is accessible and fair, taking away the blame on that means they will have a comfortable pension pot people who fail to make that claim. One way to do that when they retire. Unfortunately, many people are simply would be by making pension credit a full or partial not engaged enough with their pensions to realise that auto-payment benefit, so that no claim has to be submitted, until it is too late, despite them being fundamental to and basing it solely on income levels, which Her Majesty’s their future. I fear auto-enrolment has created the Revenue and Customs really should be able to track to complacency I mentioned earlier. ensure that no one is unfairly at a disadvantage for To combat that issue the PLSA has proposed an having prudently saved throughout their working life. increase in the minimum contribution level, to at least While successive Governments have taken steps to 12%, and I agree. Forty-three per cent. of savers do not raise the profile and take-up of pension credit, as seen know how much of their monthly salary they should be through the work to make it claimable online during the saving, in any case, and the increase would benefit a 343WH Future of Pensions Policy8 DECEMBER 2020 Future of Pensions Policy 344WH great many individuals, by increasing their savings further. comparisons between providers. It is currently extremely Additional changes could include reducing the starting complicated, and I look forward to simpler statements age to 18 and removing the lower earnings limit, so that that will put the consumer in charge. I keep my fingers every penny of earned income counts towards pensionable crossed that that policy will not be several years in the pay. According to the Association of British Insurers making, as the wheels of Government tend to take that would have the potential to save a further £2.5 billion rather an age to turn. in pension pots. It would not only increase the number It is right to empower individuals to make their own of years over which an individual saved, and consequently decisions about their futures, but we should ensure that increase the pot; it would emphasise the importance of before they make such life-changing decisions they feel saving from a younger age. informed and supported, and have considered their own What else can we do with auto-enrolment? Why not unique circumstances.Advice and guidance about pensions think a little more outside the box and create a savings needs to be accessible, affordable and available. Despite culture in the UK? If covid has taught us anything it is the benefits that financial advice can bring, only 8% of the importance of preparedness and planning for every all UK adults have received it. That is, amazingly, an eventuality. One of the bedrocks of financial planning increase on previous years, but it is still shockingly low, is having an emergency fund in place, but putting money and it puts individuals’ retirements at risk. Whether that away each month is perhaps easier said than done—there is because people feel that financial advice is unaffordable is always something else to spend it on. or only for the wealthy, or because they feel it is a risk We could look at including a savings element in and do not trust the financial services industry, we need auto-enrolment. Why not, when payroll makes a deduction to work actively to change those perceptions and show for the relevant amount for a pension, put 1% into a that financial advice is for everyone. savings pot at the same time? There could be an auto- I can assure the public that the vast majority of enrolment ISA, and people could be given the ability to advisers whom I have worked with will treat someone’s increase the percentage to what they can afford. Creating £30,000 pension pot with the same care and diligence a savings culture on the back of pensions policy could that they will treat someone’s £300,000 pot, because be one of the more pleasant side effects of covid. Many each sum is just as important to the individual concerned. people might be more open to having emergency funds Indeed, the smaller pot can be considered to be much to combat future challenges. more important to that individual in many ways, because Another area of pension policy that could benefit it will often be a lower-earning individual’s only pension from further positive change are the annual and lifetime provision, and so the risks of it running out too early allowances. Bearing in mind that that is a Treasury issue are more significant. and not necessarily one for the Department for Work If we do not promote the need for and the benefits of and Pensions, I shall not labour the point, but there is financial advice, I worry that we will have a retirement no need for an annual allowance if there is a lifetime crisis on our hands 20, 30 or 40 years down the line. allowance. Saving should be encouraged, and individuals Recent data shows that 35% of the adult population say should not be penalised for taking on extra work and they do not have a pension. Of those who do have one, saving more into their pensions. That happened to 36% are not sure how much is in their pot. Even more doctors recently, leading to them not taking on shifts worryingly, the uncertainty around pensions goes further and procedures because of the danger of a significant than uncertainty about individual circumstances, with tax bill. A potential solution to that issue would be to almost half the population admitting that they do not remove the tax penalty for breaching the annual allowance, have a clue about how much income they would need to but keep the restriction on the amount of tax relief retire comfortably. That clearly shows that widespread available to current limits. There would be no additional advice and education regarding pensions and retirement cost to the Exchequer, and people would be able to are urgently needed if we want people to be able to live continue saving into their pensions in the same way. Yet out their later years in financial security and comfort. those who were unnecessarily penalised under the limits In the past, these types of financial decisions and of the annual allowance would not be at a disadvantage. risks were shouldered by employers, pension providers As I have said, it is a Treasury area, and I am sure that and life insurance companies. Now, however, with the the Minister will take great pleasure in passing it along. introduction of greater flexibility and freedom to Wider change is needed in the pensions industry, and the pensions marketplace, it is increasingly down to the one way to achieve that and encourage people to engage individual to decide these matters, which is a wonderful earlier with pensions is by improving the accessibility thing in some respects, but worrying in others. We and reach of financial advice and guidance. Despite should not really place all responsibility for such important having been a financial planner involved in the pensions decisions on to people themselves. Instead, we should industry for many years prior to coming to this place, I ensure that people feel supported and know where to admit that the topic of pensions can be complex. I can turn for help and advice. see how,for many without such experience and knowledge, Financial advice is not only needed to help people pensions could be viewed as hard to understand or feel more informed and aware when they make decisions even, God forbid, a boring subject—a terrible thought. that will affect their lives; it also adds real value to I welcome the Government’s push for a simpler regime, people’s pensions, providing them with a better retirement which is coming down the line, to make statements in the long run. A recent report by the International more comprehensible for both the consumer and Longevity Centre found that those who have sought professionals. Members would not believe the wide professional financial advice are better off by an average range of disparate information that pension providers of £40,000 in their pension pot compared with those send out to customers, making it impossible not only to who did not seek advice. That is not an insignificant understand what they have but to make accurate amount of money. Ensuring that financial advice is seen 345WH Future of Pensions Policy8 DECEMBER 2020 Future of Pensions Policy 346WH

[Rob Roberts] During my research for this speech, I came across an article from years ago with a picture of a young-looking as a viable option for people is not only the right thing fresh-faced pensions Minister: my hon. Friend the Member to do, but crucial if we want people to have the best for Hexham. He was supporting the concept of a provider’s possible future, as well as the peace of mind that they mid-life MOT. Engagement with the UK population as are making the right decisions to benefit themselves. a matter of course when a person hits particular ages Most importantly, how can we make sure that people could be a transformative idea. Imagine the benefits of are accessing the right financial advice and support? speaking to someone aged 45, when they may be in a Forcing people to access support is not an option. Some more stable home and employment situation after those people will not even take a vaccine to save lives, for expensive years of having young children, and providing goodness’ sake, so mandating things just because people that person with some guidance on what they should be have an in-built aversion to being dictated to does not looking at from a financial point of view! That could work. have a significant impact on their outlook on pensions and financial planning for their remaining 20-plus years One option, however, is to encourage individuals to before retirement. use guidance services, such as Pension Wise, the free and impartial guidance service that was set up in 2015. Guy Opperman: I am conscious that this job has aged Accessing guidance is often the first step towards accessing me a great deal and that I look different from the full financial advice and should be greatly encouraged. fresh-faced photograph taken in 2017 when I first got it. Seeking guidance helps people to gain a good initial I have no idea why I have aged so much in the job—aside understanding about their options and also helps to from putting on the lockdown stone. boost their confidence in their ability to do things such On the mid-life MOT, I point my hon. Friend to the as avoiding pension scams, which, sadly, are all too Aviva trial and the various other trials done by the common. private sector. The mid-life MOTs started out as an HR In addition, we know that financial guidance is a benefit to employees. Their benefit to employees was great enabler for the full advice process. Data from found to be good, but the benefit to the business and to Pension Wise’s user evaluation report recently found wider state in terms of wealth, work and wellbeing—the that 36% of customers who booked an appointment three things on which it is measured—was utterly with Pension Wise went on to speak to a financial transformational. I encourage all businesses to follow adviser in the following three months, compared with the initiative of those companies and the public sector only 22% of non-users. That highlights the fact that we to follow the initiative of the DWP, which also pioneered need to emphasise the benefits of these services, and the mid-life MOT. ensure that people use them as early as possible to improve advice take-up and improve the financial outlook Rob Roberts: Absolutely; I thank the Minister for his for many individuals in the UK. intervention. It was in the Aviva article that I saw the Currently, it is far too easy to opt out of taking this fresh-faced youthfulness of the Minister, although he free guidance from Pension Wise. Many studies over has now turned into an advert for Just for Men. It is many years have shown that individuals need several working well for him. exposures to information before they start taking action, The Minister is absolutely right. Adding a health so perhaps we need to start them on that journey a little review to that mid-life MOT process could also have bit earlier, so that they are engaged in the process when untold benefits: it could catch illnesses early and could the time is right. encourage people to change their lifestyle before problems arise. I completely endorse the Minister’s support of the Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) mid-life MOT process and encourage him to work (Ind): I commend the hon. Gentleman on his speech, across Departments to put something together in that which shows his great expertise in this important policy space that could drive real change in financial and field, and he is right to press on this issue of financial medical wellbeing. advice. However, does he agree that the education systems The banking and financial industry has developed of the respective countries of the UK should play a and adapted to the 21st century, and in the same way greater role, so that our children are financially capable the financial advice sector needs to undergo wholesale when they leave school? When it comes to pensions in reform and change. Financial advice is often viewed as particular, the earlier that people start saving for their too expensive, or individuals worry that they do not pension, the better. Interventions need to happen far have enough to invest. Those outdated perceptions of earlier than they do now. the sector need to change. To do that, the sector needs to become more transparent and to move towards set Rob Roberts: Absolutely—that is a very salient and fees on an hourly rate, or towards a project fee basis. very welcome intervention from the hon. Gentleman. I That would help make access to financial advice easier completely agree. and more affordable. We need to start financial education in schools about There is a large amount of worry and mistrust around the more basic things: what is a current account? How the financial services industry. It would certainly help does it work? What is an overdraft? What is a credit boost consumers’ trust and confidence that they were card? The number of people leaving school and university getting the right advice if the advice sector were made who are already in massive debt before even taking into more transparent. The inherent unfairness of percentage- account things such as university fees is staggering. If based charging is clear. It is simply wrong to charge we are not getting people on the right footing, I completely double the fee for handling a £200,000 investment compared agree that we should be looking into developing that. with a £100,000 investment; it literally takes no more People need to start the journey earlier. time and no more resource to do the work. 347WH Future of Pensions Policy8 DECEMBER 2020 Future of Pensions Policy 348WH

Even factoring in slightly more indemnity risk to the According to the Make My Money Matter campaign, adviser for advising on a higher sum would certainly sustainable pensions are 27 times more impactful in not justify anything like a doubling of the fee. I firmly reducing your carbon footprint than stopping air travel believe that the public should seek out advisers who and following a plant-based diet combined—27 times! charge fees expressed in pounds and pence, and who Looking across the whole fund universe, we see that give a quotation for services based on time expected or relatively few pension funds have fully embraced socially a fixed project fee rather than a percentage-based amount. responsible investing or incorporated environmental, social and governance factors into their processes. While Damien Moore (Southport) (Con): Does my hon. some have suggested that the Government should force Friend agree that many providers who give pensions private pension schemes to invest in a socially responsible advice should actually be putting their fees and charges way, that feels like an over-reach—an inappropriate and explicitly on websites and other promotional materials, counter-productive use of power—as it may well encourage so that people can see what the costs would be from the disinvestment. The bottom line to keep in mind is that start of the process? pensions are there to provide retirement income first and foremost; if we can save the planet afterwards, that Rob Roberts: I very much agree with my hon. Friend. is an extra bonus. But 68% of UK savers want their It is now incumbent on advisers when they see clients investments to consider people and planet alongside for the first time to give them an initial disclosure profits, while 71% would opt for a fully or partially document, which sets out the fees and charges that the sustainable pension if they had the choice, showing the client can rightly expect to pay. The disclosure of fees demand for socially responsible investment of pensions. should always be completely upfront and agreed to by the client, before any work is undertaken—that is an The Pension Schemes Bill has recently created a absolutely vital part of the process, for sure. taskforce on climate-related financial disclosures that puts the consumer in charge and increases the transparency Too many consumers are missing out on the potential of pension funds regarding investments. There is clearly opportunities that advice can bring because of a lack of a demand in the UK for socially responsible investing understanding or a perception that advice is too expensive. within pension funds. The Government aim to facilitate It is time to develop the financial advice sector and that, as shown with the taskforce, and I commend them make it work for consumers. I urge the Minister to for it and look forward to seeing how it develops. continue to develop awareness of financial advice and guidance services, and make them as accessible as possible As I said at the beginning, pension policy is a topic so that the advice gap around pensions can be closed. that can often be overlooked. It is overly complex, too technical and not relevant to the many immediate, One area of pensions where the advice gap is intrinsically pressing issues of the day. But it does not have to be linked is costs and charges associated with pensions. In overlooked. Pensions policy is an incredibly important many cases, the associated costs and charges, whether topic that will impact all of us in later life as we look to the annual management charge or underlying fund charges, retire, and it is the responsibility of all of us to look at are too much of a focus for consumers, advisers, the how we can shape it positively to provide the best regulator and policy—to the detriment of the performance retirement for as many people as possible.The contributions and quality of the actual pension. Instead of focusing and sacrifices that our older citizens have made throughout on which contract is the cheapest, more time and guidance this pandemic, and indeed throughout their lives, are need to be shared that consider the end result and considerable, and it is only right that our policies recognise outcome. This is what will be available to pensioners and reflect that hard work and allow them to live out and what will impact the quality of their retirement. their retirement in comfort with the peace of mind that Even though pension costs may be more expensive, if their pension will see them through. a contract has the propensity to generate higher returns, I look forward to the contributions of colleagues, it will give a better end result for the individual. In including the Minister and the shadow Minister. Although addition, as many people do not seek financial advice great strides have been made through the Pension Schemes regarding their pension, many will lack the knowledge Bill, there is more to do if we want our pensioners to to understand the full impact of any costs and charges, have the retirement they deserve. which often leads to people choosing the cheapest contract which may not benefit their situation. The principle of Several hon. Members rose— having lower charges and less of a drag on performance is a noble principle, but it does not always work out that Stewart Hosie (in the Chair): Order. Before I call the principles follow through to superior outcomes. It is the next speaker, let me say that if we take no more than outcomes that people can spend in retirement, not the seven minutes per Back Bencher, it will all go swimmingly. principle. 3 pm Finally, it would not be right to hold a debate that seeks to improve people’s future in retirement without Sarah Owen (Luton North) (Lab): It is a pleasure to considering how to ensure that the pension industry is serve under your chairship, Mr Hosie. I congratulate becoming green and playing its part in protecting the the hon. Member for Delyn (Rob Roberts) on securing environment. Given that pension funds—long-term this incredibly important debate. investments—hold around $20 trillion in assets globally, We have rightly spoken a lot over the past few months they are an integral part of socially responsible investing about how deeply people have been affected throughout and can play a major part in helping the UK to reach this pandemic—people who have lost jobs, businesses net zero. I commend, in his absence, my hon. Friend the that are worried that they are going under and the Member for Grantham and Stamford (Gareth Davies), 3 million people who have not been able to access covid whose campaign has led to the UK’s first green investment support. I am here today to speak up for my pension-age bond, which is on the horizon. constituents who are struggling too. 349WH Future of Pensions Policy8 DECEMBER 2020 Future of Pensions Policy 350WH

[Sarah Owen] people are currently shut out of being automatically enrolled in a workplace pension. What is the Minister As we have heard, since 2010 at least an extra doing to tackle that huge savings gap, which is scandalous? 400,000 pensioners have been pushed into poverty, and It is clear that even before the pandemic many people a generation of women born in the 1950s were betrayed. already felt a deep sense of unfairness about our pension That left millions of women with no time to make system. Parliament has debated the issue, in a full alternative plans, with sometimes devastating personal Chamber, time and again, because of the strength of consequences, including for people I have spoken to in feeling among the 1950s women we represent who have Luton North. The people who have written to me have been ripped off by this Government. done the right thing in life: they paid into the system As a new Member, this is my first opportunity to and worked hard, and now they want their Government raise the countless emails that I know we have all to be there when they need it. They include people such received on this issue and the massive number of as my mum and her generation of friends—the WASPI conversations we have all had. I had many conversations women. on doorsteps at the time of the election. One gentleman One Luton North constituent wrote: came out of a mosque and said, “I wasn’t sure how I “I am 65 years old and I am due to receive my state pension was going to vote, but I’m definitely voting for Labour next year—at the age of 66. now, because my wife has told me that you have promised I am currently struggling financially. I was due to receive my that we will see justice for the WASPI women.” pension at the age of 60. I have worked my whole life and then I I would like to give that hope to every family because stopped as I became a carer for my elderly mother. this is not just about women—it is also about the I am not entitled to apply for any benefits. With the current families supported by those women. Any future reforms covid pandemic it is even more difficult for me to consider of pensions policy must come with justice for the 1950s working. I suffer from a lot of health problems. I was diagnosed with TB last year and since had been receiving treatment for it. women who lost out when the Government changed the pension age. Again, this is all about fairness. Those I have never struggled so much financially before as I am now women worked, paid in and did the right thing, then and the pandemic has made it even worse for me.” had part of their pensions taken away. I ask the Minister I wish I could say that that was a one-off, Minister, but whether the Government’s line from last year still stands. I am afraid that my inbox has been full of similar letters. Is there no money for the WASPI women or will that change? Dignity as we grow older should not be an Jonathan Edwards: I am extremely grateful to the optional extra; it should be the very basic that the hon. Lady for raising that very important issue. I have Government should provide. In one of the richest countries also received numerous pieces of correspondence over in the world, we should not have any older people living the years in relation to that group of women. The anger in poverty. about the injustice relates to the goalposts being changed late in their lives. 3.6 pm What in her view is the way forward to help address Damien Moore (Southport) (Con): It is a pleasure to the problems faced by those women? Some are campaigning speak under your chairmanship, Mr Hosie. I thank my for bridging pensions or early access to their state hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Rob Roberts) for pension. Is her view that that is the way forward, or securing this important debate and it is a pleasure to does she support an alternative strategy? follow the hon. Member for Luton North (Sarah Owen). This is an important debate on a subject that should Sarah Owen: That is something that I will come to be talked about more by more of us. My hon. Friend later in my speech. Whatever the future of our pension mentioned the number of people who do talk about policy is, that injustice must be addressed. pensions. We could have done with seeing a few more The pandemic has had a devastating impact on older people here today representing their constituents to people in this country, in terms of isolation, their mental discuss the future pensions policy of this country, which and physical health, and their finances. I want to put on is incredibly important. I am sure my hon. Friend will the record my thanks to wonderful organisations such thank all hon. Members here for participating; it is as Age Concern in Luton, which has been there every testimony to those who really care about the issue that step of the way for older people in my constituency. they are here today. However, it should not be this way. The Government The matter affects the lives of millions of people in should not be turning their back on pensioners. I was our country. It is very complex and complicated for truly appalled by the decision this year to scrap free TV people to navigate. My Southport constituency has an licences for over-75s, which added yet another financial incredibly high level of pensioners. We not only have a burden and barrier to accessing important information, high number of our own but people come to retire to especially at this time. What are the Government going our beautiful seaside resort, so I quite often talk about to do during the pandemic to help those pensioners pensions with people there. who, like so many others, have found themselves struggling I will discuss a few issues on pensions policy. A to make ends meet? number of points have already been made but I want to As we enter one of the worst recessions since records reiterate some of them in my speech. I will first say that began, what guarantees will the Minister give to protect the introduction of the Pension Schemes Bill was welcome. pensions in the future? The recent findings from the It contains meaningful and impactful measures that will Pensions Policy Institute show that single mothers, carers, go a long way to address the challenges faced by pensioners. disabled people and black, Asian and minority ethnic We know, for example, that people might hold at least groups had pension wealth of just 15% of the national 11 different jobs during their working lives and will average, and that 81% of carers and 21% of disabled have paid into a multitude of different pension pots. 351WH Future of Pensions Policy8 DECEMBER 2020 Future of Pensions Policy 352WH

Someone is more likely to have 25 different name badges On pension credit, which has also been brought up, I from companies than a gold watch after 25 years of know that the Government are doing all they can to service. ensure that people who are eligible for pension credit, Most people will only realise when they reach that who have paid into the system throughout their lives stage in life of coming up to retirement that those and done the right thing, receive it. Pension credit pension pots are theirs and are available, and they need ensures that the pension of those who receive a weekly to know how best to utilise them. That point is often income is brought up to the minimum amount, which is too late. People might not realise that sometimes it is an absolute lifeline to many people. As has been said, possible to take out funds, that the funds might not many people do not claim everything they can. We should have been invested in the right way or might have been encourage people to claim what they are entitled to. invested in a way that that person did not want. Information Recent research commissioned by Independent Age from pension providers, not just the annual update but shows that we must work harder on that. If the level of more regular ones, is really important. Employers should pension credit uptake was boosted to 100%, it could lift also talk about pensions on payslips, whether they are 450,000 pensioners out of poverty. Whether they are physical or virtual, asking whether someone is getting buying groceries or heating their homes, it is important the right pensions advice. That could be done every that people in older age are living a life, not just existing, month for those who are paid monthly or every week and that they do not feel shut away from society in any for those paid weekly. There should be something there way. In 2018-19, £1.8 billion of pension credit was not specifically talking about pensions, so that people are received by those eligible for it. The low uptake of informed and reminded every step of the way, because pension credit costs the taxpayer £4 billion a year in people are obviously very busy. additional unavoidable NHS and social care spending. The pensions dashboard is welcome. It will simplify In an area that we are looking to reform and make pension information and bring it to one place. It will better, we could prevent that high level of spending by empower people to do more than they have previously giving people what they are entitled to. been able to do, with pieces of paper given on an Renewing our focus on increasing uptake would save intermittent basis. the taxpayer money, as I have said, and people in all Another area of the Pension Schemes Bill is green parts of our country would have a better standard of pension investments. The UK is the first major economy living. DWP representatives have already confirmed to put climate risk and disclosure into statute for pension that the technology is there for greater automation of schemes. I asked the Secretary of State for Work and benefit provision and that the data required is largely Pensions about that last week. It is a new area for already held by the Government. Hopefully, we can pensions, but the generations coming up are more inclined unlock that to get the process going. We need to build to support green issues and might want their pensions on that and work towards meaningful solutions for to be invested in some of those companies, so we should those in pension credit scenarios. empower them to do that. The key things that I would like the Minister to take As my hon. Friend the Member for Delyn set out, away include education, of course, which is where we people should receive a good retirement. The Government can start to build a better pensions policy and framework. have shown through the Bill that they understand the If people have better education, they can take control of issues facing pensioners; I genuinely believe that they their lives. In later life, we need to look at the pension are responding to them. When we talk about pensions, credit issue. We should also have an eye on innovation, however,we are talking about the end of the process—when technology and green industries and ensure that they people will receive one or what time of life they will are promoted to people now, because there is no better retire. We need to start talking about pensions at the time for them to be thinking about it, in terms of their beginning of people’s working lives when they start a future and the future of our planet. job or a career and, hopefully, start saving for their retirement. As he said, it may not be the sexiest subject 3.14 pm to speak about, but it is one of the most important. If somebody gets it right or wrong at the start of their Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op): I am career, it can be life-changing. Of course, as has been grateful to be called to speak in the debate this afternoon, said, we should also look at points in time where we can Mr Hosie. I thank the hon. Member for Delyn (Rob have an MOT of where our pensions are. Roberts) for securing it. Education in schools is critical and it should be there The insecurity and inequality that people experience for all children in all schools. My financial education throughout their working lives is amplified in older life. was about opening a bank account, credit cards, overdrafts I certainly see that in my constituency, where, regrettably, and how to fill in a cheque, which was a cause of great insecure work mars the lives of many people. It was in excitement for many fellow pupils. I must say that I am the city of York that Joseph Rowntree first introduced still excited about it; I still use cheques. That being said, pensions in his factory in 1906, ahead of the Old Age there should have been, and there should be now, more Pensions Act 1908, which came into effect on 1 January emphasis on pensions and what that will mean in later 1909—on pensions day, as it was known. It was Seebohm life. If we do not start explaining the long-term value of Rowntree’s work in this field that brought about that saving for a pension, we will never do it when people get Act, so my city has a real investment in today’s debate. close to the point of receiving one. That is really important. We need to ask what the problem is that we are trying I know that the Minister is committed to lifelong financial to solve around pensions. Are pensions simply part of education, and there is no better advocate of that than reward packages and used as a recruitment and retention him in the Government, but I would like to see more of tool by employers? Are employers really interested in that happen when he speaks to my right hon. Friend the the economic fortunes of their former employees once Secretary of State for Education. they have left their employment? How do we address 353WH Future of Pensions Policy8 DECEMBER 2020 Future of Pensions Policy 354WH

[Rachael Maskell] future. I would urge, if we are looking at raising the sufficiency of stakeholder schemes, a greater employer the serious issue of pensioner poverty, and are pensions contribution into those schemes, as opposed to the fair and equitable or dependent too much on past burden being placed on the workers’ shoulders. income, which we know is inequitable in itself? Today, I would also like the Minister to look at the number 1.9 million older people live in poverty, which really of pension schemes. Many countries have just a few amplifies how pensions have gone wrong, and we therefore hundred pension schemes altogether; we have more need to look at how we address those issues. than 10,000, and we know that many of those schemes I view this issue through the prism of women and are struggling. I have looked at the charity sector, their experiences of the inequality that is already built where, among the top 50 charities, there is now a deficit into their working life by the pay gap. They are more of £1.5 billion. We know that in other sectors, people likely to be in part-time employment and more likely to move from job to job to job and therefore have no time be carers, and there is also the serious issue of to build up a pension pot with a company. If we moved underemployment. In fact, since the start of the pandemic, to a more sectoral model, that would give individuals a 70% of people who have lost their jobs are women. We lot more scope to build a pension for their future, and a therefore need to understand why so many women are model of sectoral bargaining could shape such pension in pensioner poverty. schemes. I think it would be helpful to look into that. Young workers and black workers are more likely to As I have mentioned, equality needs to be brought to be in insecure jobs. Disabled people lose out altogether the fore, not least because of the impact in terms of and fare worse. Inequality is hardwired into our pension women in poverty in later life. Economic events impact system, exacerbating the unfairness of employment. I on pensions so much. We therefore need to address observed over the years as a trade union official how we those issues, but we also need to recognise that in later needed to bring redress into our pension system, which life, people from areas of deprivation are more likely to is an issue I would welcome the Minister looking at be in poor health and so working longer is not always specifically. relevant. Weneed more flexibility to be built into pensions On state pensions, many countries such as the in later life, but we also need to ensure that individuals Netherlands, Denmark and Australia have far better do not lose out because they work in different ways. statutory provision in later life, as can be seen in the I echo the support that has been expressed for more quality of life that people experience. The Netherlands financial education. I, too, was at the event that Aviva pays 95% of average earnings, Denmark 66%, Australia held on work, wealth and wellbeing. It was particularly 58% and the UK just 29%. Insufficiency is also built about people having an MOT to check on them—to into our pensions system. We have heard much about check their mental health as well as their physical the pension credit system, but take-up is only 60% , with health—and to look in mid-life at the opportunities and £2.8 billion not claimed. I therefore support automation. the finances ahead. We need to ensure that such Data can be shared and the technology is there to tackle opportunities are open to everyone. inequality and enable people to access not only their Finally, I want to draw attention to the importance of pensions but, as we have heard, TV licences and other building confidence again in the pensions system. At a such benefits. It is really important that the gap is closed time when people have so little dispensable resource, with the mechanisms we have available to achieve that. they will be making choices about whether to invest in their longer-term future or to buy essentials, such as a Jonathan Edwards: The hon. Lady is making a very meal for their family. We therefore need to ensure that well informed speech, as is typical of her. Does she we address the poverty today as well as the poverty agree that much of the drive over recent decades to tomorrow. The WASPI women are one example of a increase the state pension age has been driven by the group that certainly made the right choices, yet was fact that life expectancy has been increasing? However, badly let down by the changes brought about by there is evidence that that is reversing and life expectancy Government decisions. We need to build confidence in is starting to fall. If that is sustained, the UK Government our system to ensure that there are fair choices for need to look at pensions policy and perhaps reverse the people in the future. pension age increases that we have seen over recent decades. Rachael Maskell: The hon. Gentleman raises an 3.23 pm interesting point. Of course, that was the basis on which Wendy Chamberlain (North East Fife) (LD): It is a the Cridland review undertook its exercise of looking at pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hosie. I how to address an ageing population, so he is right that congratulate the hon. Member for Delyn (Rob Roberts) the Government need to look at that issue. on securing the debate. This autumn has demonstrated Turning to employer schemes, we have seen a change that there is a considerable appetite in the House for in the schemes over the years from more beneficial discussion of pensions policy. We have had the Social schemes such as the defined-benefit schemes, first from Security (Up-rating of Benefits) Act 2020 and a landmark final salary to career-average earnings schemes. There piece of pensions legislation in the Pension Schemes has also been a rapid move to defined-contribution Bill, with amendments yet to be considered in the schemes, where more risk is placed with the worker. House of Lords. Not content with all that debate, we Therefore, people’s lack of engagement in the complex now find ourselves, thanks to the hon. Member for world of pensions is ever more understandable. Of Delyn, looking to the horizon of pension policies yet to course, auto-enrolment in some of the pension schemes come. shows insufficiency, which the hon. Member for Delyn Of course, that is entirely the right approach, for two drew out, but the employer contribution of just 3% is reasons. First, pensions are, by their very nature, a hardly that of an employer investing in their workers’ long-term product, so the policy decisions we are making 355WH Future of Pensions Policy8 DECEMBER 2020 Future of Pensions Policy 356WH now will have an impact quite literally decades down However, pensions policy is not just about the long the line. Let us say that someone is in their early 20s, has term. As we have heard from other Members, there are just started their first permanent job and is making many steps that can and should be taken to ensure that their first pension contributions. They will not be drawing pensions work better for people who are about to retire, down their pension for another 45 or even 50 years, or who have retired already. Pensioners are feeling real most likely, so the legislation and regulations that we financial impacts now, including the Equitable Life make now—those, for instance, that are part of the scandal, the situation experienced by the WASPI women Pension Schemes Bill—will have an effect stretching all and the issues with plumbers’ pensions, which I raised the way to 2070 and beyond. That really is long-term during the debate on the Pension Schemes Bill last policy making. month. There is also the fact that many British pensioners overseas have their state pensions frozen, and the Secondly, this century poses new challenges of huge Government have not committed to uplifting those proportions.Thosechallengesof courseincludeautomation, pensions, at the very least for the duration of the covid an ageing population, with increasing life expectancy—I pandemic. This has been a hugely difficult time for note the comments of the hon. Member for Carmarthen many of those pensioners in many different countries. East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) on that—and We might just have taken a huge step in relation to the climate emergency. I would not normally choose to pensions through legislation, but these campaigns continue, quote Donald Rumsfeld, but when we consider the and it is imperative that the Government actively engage profound and unforeseen impact that a global pandemic with them. Many of those campaigners are disheartened has had on our society this year, we have to recognise that the chance they felt they had to resolve those issues that it is not just the identifiable factors that we need to through the Pension Schemes Bill was missed, and feel be concerned about; it is also the “unknown unknowns”. that they remain unheard. An incredibly important matter when it comes to Another issue that I hope the Minister will address is long-term pensions policy is the triple lock. It was a that of married women who have been underpaid their decade ago that the Liberal Democrats helped introduce state pension, having not been upgraded to their full the triple lock on the state pension, and I pay tribute to pension when their husband reached state pension age. the then Pensions Minister and former Liberal Democrat They could potentially be eligible for thousands of MP Steve Webb, who was instrumental in that. The pounds in repayment from the Department for Work triple lock has been a huge success and an incredibly and Pensions. This is an issue that Steve Webb, whom I popular measure: indeed, since its introduction, it has mentioned earlier, is working to highlight and resolve. been adopted by all major parties, although I note with We know that at least 1,900 women have been paid out concern that there has been some speculation that the to, but the Government have not yet said how much Government may look to scrap it in future. I hope that money has been paid out in total. We urgently need to rumours of its demise are greatly exaggerated, because I know how many women the Government estimate have do think that the triple lock plays a crucial role. potentially been underpaid. It is so important that these During the debate about the Social Security (Up-rating women are informed as soon as possible that they have of Benefits) Bill in October, I spoke to the issue of been underpaid. intergenerational fairness. That issue has become very Many Members have talked about pension credit; we clear over the past few months, during which young need to inform people of what they are due. I hope the people have had to put their lives on hold to stop the Minister will address that in his response, because so far spread of a virus that does not always pose the same there has not been sufficient clarity from the Government threat to them as it does to older people in our society. about the scale of this problem and what has been done Of course, it is young people who will bear the brunt of to address it. the current and future economic costs, not only because of the immediate impact on the jobs market that we are Finally, I come back to the Pension Schemes Bill, seeing, but because they will be saddled with the debt because it has not yet been passed. Amendments are accrued into the future. still being considered by the Lords, and while the scope of possible changes to the Bill is now limited, I do hope Some say that the triple lock is making the gap the Government will be willing to engage and potentially between the generations grow even further because, on to restore some of the additions made to the Bill. As the the face of it, a large sum of money is being spent on Minister knows, I am particularly keen to see further older people. However, as I made clear during the clarity on the issue of open defined-benefit schemes, debate on the uprating Bill, it is increasingly the case and I hope the Government will continue to engage that many working-age people are unable to save adequately with my colleague Baroness Bowles on that issue—in for their retirement. It is certainly the case that defined- fact, I believe they are doing so today. benefit schemes, which many people were historically enrolled in, are being used far less frequently. That all means an increasing reliance on the state pension. As Guy Opperman: On that particular point, the hon. such, it is vital that we make sure the state pension is Lady will be pleased to know that, provided this debate strong, not only for this generation of retirees but for ends on time, I will go straight into a meeting with a the next one and the one after that. I continue to urge cross-party group of Lords about clause 123 and open the Government, as I did during the passage of that DB. I will be making the point that the Pensions Regulator Bill, to ensure that the triple lock is retained, now and in will be very happy to meet the Lords to engage with the future. We need to ensure a good deal for the them and ensure that they have an opportunity to fully generation of people who are currently only starting comprehend what the proposed regulations are going to out in work. The choices we make now will have an be. I will also make the point that we remain very impact decades into the future. supportive of DB on an ongoing basis. 357WH Future of Pensions Policy8 DECEMBER 2020 Future of Pensions Policy 358WH

Wendy Chamberlain: I thank the Minister for that pension age beyond 66 also does not take into account intervention. I only became aware of the meeting today, the demographic challenges we face in Scotland, but it while I was sitting here, a short time ago, and I thank seems that we in Scotland, just like the WASPI women, him for his response. There is still an opportunity to are getting a message—that is, that this Government make the Bill even better than it is, and I urge the and this Parliament are not listening. Government to take that chance. That Bill lays the foundations for the future of pensions policy. Ahead of the spending review, the Chancellor was warned that the proposal to reform measures of inflation 3.30 pm would result in more than 10 million pensioners losing out if he moves to a lower inflation measure. Where was Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP): It is a the public debate around a so-called technical adjustment pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mr Hosie. I that could take an estimated £60 billion out of UK thank the hon. Member for Delyn (Rob Roberts) for pension funds? securing today’s debate. My hon. Friend the Member for East Dunbartonshire For many people on low pensions, pension credit could (Amy Callaghan) would have been here today but for be the difference between living in poverty and simply her recent health issues. Other Members will be pleased keeping their head above water. However, pension credit to hear that she is showing good signs of recovery, and I take-up has stagnated at around 60% for the last 10 years; know that everyone will join me in sending our best more than 1 million pensioners are missing this lifeline, wishes to her. which also opens access to other vital benefits. Members should be in no doubt that the Scottish Despite only recently taking responsibility for some National party believes that pensions policy should be benefits, the Scottish Government have already published in Scotland’s hands; this would let our Scottish Parliament a benefit take-up strategy and are working to increase set a policy that reflects Scotland’s circumstances. That awareness of and access to Scottish benefits; I know opportunity to do things that work better for people in that my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North Scotland will come with independence, which more and East (Anne McLaughlin) has done a great deal of work more people recognise as the best future for Scotland. on this. The UK Government need a similar take-up For now, while the SNP broadly supported the Bill, campaign and a strategy for reserved benefits, including we believe that improvements can be made, including in pension credit. I wonder whether the Minister will managing the roll-out and risks of pensions dashboards, commit to putting such a campaign in place, to ensure protecting existing defined benefit schemes, tackling the that people are aware of benefits and can access those injustice of section 75 debt, and improving automatic to which they are entitled. enrolment. However, pensions policy must address more In the midst of great uncertainty, protecting people’s fundamental issues; as the hon. Member for Delyn said, savings and eliminating pensioner poverty is more important pensions policy should be a simple matter, allowing than it has ever been. Young people whose lives and people to save up during their working lives to finance prospects could be irreparably damaged by covid and their retirements. Instead, it is notoriously complex; it is Brexit face losing out on vital lifetime savings. We have of such complexity that many people switch off, leaving heard that there are significant gender,ethnic and regional their biggest asset—their future security—in the hands disparities in pension incomes that a pensions and of others. Adding new options, such as collective money savings commission could address. purchase schemes, increases that complexity. One of the questions facing the UK is: why has the A 2018 study by the Chartered Insurance Institute pensions bar been set so low compared with other noted that, by the time a woman is aged 65 to 69, her countries? A 2017 report by the OECD found that UK average pension wealth is £35,700, which is roughly a pensioners get the worst deal of any OECD country, fifth of that for a man of her age. That is a shocking retiring on just 29% of nation average earnings, compared figure and surely reflects the number of women who with an OECD average of 63% and an average for EU have not saved for a pension because of low earnings. member states of 71%. The SNP supports automatic enrolment, but far too As the UK’s population ages, this leaves much of the many have been left behind. The UK Government need population with little choice and limited purchasing to extend the coverage. That could be done by reducing power. Even the triple lock, which the hon. Member for the earnings threshold to the national insurance primary North East Fife (Wendy Chamberlain) spoke about threshold, bringing almost 500,000 people—mostly women comprehensively, has had a limited impact, with the —into pension saving, and by lowering the age threshold value of the basic state pension increasing by less than from 22 to 18. Saving from the first pound earned 1.5% of national average earnings since 2011. would also reinforce the importance of starting a savings habit early, but that can be afforded only if we extend Recognising that pensions are too low to support a the real living wage. lengthy retirement should be the beginning of a serious programme for change. The SNP has long supported One of the reasons for pensions complexity is the the establishment of an independent savings and pensions need for reassurance that funds held over long periods commission to ensure that pensions and savings policies of time will not disappear or promised returns fail to are fit for purpose. Such a commission could prevent materialise. That is why pensions need strong consumer changes being announced with no assessment of impacts, protections. For too often, Governments have failed to and without communication of the changes being made deliver that. George Osborne failed to do so when he properly, as happened when the 1950s-born WASPI introduced so-called pension freedoms in 2015. The women had their state pension age changed with little SNP voiced its opposition at the time, highlighting the or no notice or information, as the hon. Member for risk to people of transferring funds out of their pension Luton North (Sarah Owen) noted. The increase in state to their detriment. Unfortunately, the evidence is that 359WH Future of Pensions Policy8 DECEMBER 2020 Future of Pensions Policy 360WH this has turned into yet another Government-initiated (Damien Moore), my hon. Friend the Member for York scammers’ paradise that will further inflict damage on Central (Rachael Maskell), and the hon. Member for the reputation of the UK financial services sector. North East Fife (Wendy Chamberlain). I want to address the biggest long-term challenge we Hon. Members are right to say that pensions are all face in future pensions policy. What will happen to too often seen as a distant, complex topic. It is vital to pensions if we allow the assets on which they depend to make them easy and accessible to understand, particularly be significantly devalued or rendered unusable by climate to engage younger people in savings choices early in change? The SNP supports industry calls for firms to their life. A pound saved at 18 is worth much more in include climate change-related disclosures in their annual retirement than a pound saved at the age of 30 or 40, or reports. It sounded as though the hon. Member for later. I welcome the many contributions on the importance Southport (Damien Moore) might agree with that. We of lifelong financial learning and literacy. are committed to putting that on to a statutory basis. Ensuring that everyone, no matter their background, The SNP also supports moves to introduce an easy- occupation or gender, has dignity and security in old to-understand system of climate-friendly external audits age should be the fundamental objective of pensions so small investors can better understand the climate-related policy. However, the complex and long-term nature of risks of investments, including the risks facing company pensions policy decisions, and the long-term careful pension schemes. It was hugely disappointing that the planning of public finances, mean that those ambitions UK Government prevented occupational pension schemes are best realised through political co-operation and from being required to develop a strategy for aligning consensus. That is why,in government, Labour introduced investments with Paris agreement goals and net zero the Pensions Commission in 2002, to provide a emissions targets. With COP26 coming to Glasgow next comprehensive analysis of the UK pensions system, year, perhaps the Minister could share with members assess how it was developing over time, and make what advice the Department for Work and Pensions has recommendations on the long-term funding of pensions. received from the Committee on Climate Change on the Indeed, the commission charted a new direction in UK role of pensions in tackling the climate challenge. If no pensions policy and gained widespread consensus on advice has been received, will the Department ask for it? reforms that might previously have been regarded as I would also like to ask the Minister to address the unthinkable. issue of frozen pensions that we have heard about I am proud that, for instance, it was the last Labour already. Half a million UK pensioners living overseas Government who created auto-enrolment, which has do not receive an increase to their UK state pension transformed the lives of millions, with 10 million more with the value frozen when they leave the UK or when people now saving into a workplace pension. I give the pension is first drawn. This means that their pension credit to the Government who took office in 2010 for decreases in real value year on year. Because it only their work to drive forward auto-enrolment. However, I applies in some countries,we now have significant inequality think that we are all concerned that an estimated 12 million built up and, for instance, a disproportionate impact on people may still be under-saving for retirement. We groups such as the Windrush generation. welcome the review of the policy that was commissioned I will finish by highlighting the issue of inequality. in 2017 and its recommendations that the age threshold That is the topic that the hon. Member for York Central for auto-enrolment should be lowered from 22 to 18 and (Rachael Maskell) was particularly concerned about. It that the lower limit of the qualifying earnings band was brought to my attention by a constituent who was should be removed so that contributions are payable allocated a share of her husband’s police pension as from the first pound earned by an employee. The Minister part of a divorce settlement. Having become unable to told us in Committee that the review will be implemented work owing to ill health, she was told that although her in the mid-2020s; but could we have confirmation that ex-husband had retired early and drawn his share of the the intended legislation will enact those two proposals? pension, she is unable to do so until she turns 60. She If possible, can we have further detail on the timeframe? was shocked to find that such discriminatory regulations are expressly permitted under section 61 of the Equality Guy Opperman: I welcome the cross-party tone of Act 2010. Does the Minister agree that this seems the hon. Lady’s speech, and I hope it continues. Automatic wholly inappropriate in 2020? Will he tell me what he enrolment is of course a classic example of a policy thinks can be done to address that issue? instituted by Labour,brought forward under the coalition and finally taken forward under the Conservative 3.39 pm Government. We would definitely seek to take the action in question in the current Parliament, because we have Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op): said it would be brought forward by the mid-2020s; but It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mr Hosie. many of the other policies that the hon. Lady is talking I welcome this debate in which I speak on behalf of my about, such as the state pension age increase brought in hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Erdington by the Labour Government in the Pensions Act 2007, (Jack Dromey). I congratulate the hon. Member for are cross-party decisions, which I hope she continues to Delyn (Rob Roberts) on securing the debate and on his support. broad-ranging opening remarks on the need to support pensioners and on the uptake of pension credit, the Seema Malhotra: The Minister knows, indeed, the scourge of pensioner poverty, the sufficiency of pension importance that we also give to cross-party consensus savings and many other issues. on such important strategic directions in pensions policy, I thank other Members for their contributions. My and that we have worked closely with him on many hon. Friend the Member for Luton North (Sarah Owen) measures in the Pension Schemes Bill. There could not spoke powerfully about the plight of the WASPI be a more important time for us to work together to women. I also thank the hon. Member for Southport protect people’s financial security in retirement, because 361WH Future of Pensions Policy8 DECEMBER 2020 Future of Pensions Policy 362WH

[Seema Malhotra] used responsibly, from investing in infrastructure to green technologies. Labour’s amendment to the Pension even though the Government have refused to publish Schemes Bill sought to ask pension funds to demonstrate their dossier on the economic impact of coronavirus, we how they are helping us get to net zero emissions. It is know that the economic fallout is vast. Indeed, according hard to see how the Government can achieve their own to the OECD the pandemic has compounded the challenges climate goals while excluding trillions of pounds of British for retirement savings, including pressures such as ageing capital from those efforts.By voting against our amendment, populations, slow growth and low returns, which will we believe the Government missed a chance to mobilise continue long into the future. pension funds to protect the planet and support the Furthermore, the fall of major employers puts the drive to net zero. This is despite the fact that there is pensions of entire workforces at risk. An example is the clear public support for such a move. The Government uncertain status of the 10,000 members of the Arcadia must use all the tools at their disposal to channel defined benefit pension scheme, where there is an eye- pension funds into investments that benefit people and watering deficit of about £350 million. The Government the planet. must act to ensure that those workers get the pensions Finally, I highlight the particular challenges faced by that they are owed. It is Labour’s firm view that Sir specific groups where injustices need further action. On Philip Green and Lady Green owe a moral responsibility the former ASW steelworkers, the Minister is aware of to the employees to fill the pensions shortfall. They their desperate plight. Many worked for decades, paying must not allow their workers to go into Christmas not 100% of their pensions, only to find years later that they only having to deal with the consequences of losing only received half of what they were entitled to. They their jobs, but fearing for their pensions. have been fighting for their full pensions for 20 years. The pandemic also brings an increased risk from Will the Minister confirm when he plans to meet the pension scammers preying on people who are worried ASW steelworkers, as he has committed to, and will he about the impact of the current economic uncertainty work to find a cross-party solution? on their savings. That is why Labour fully supported the I once again raise the plight of the WASPI women, amendments tabled by my right hon. Friend the Member about whom my hon. Friend the Member for Luton for East Ham (Stephen Timms) to the Pension Schemes North (Sarah Owen) spoke so powerfully. Labour also Bill, to protect people better from risky transfers and found recently that 15,000 1950s women are claiming improve the provision of advice, to stop people falling universal credit—the pandemic will have made this prey to scammers. We regret that the Government did worse. It is unacceptable that 1950s women have been not support my right hon. Friend’s amendments, but forgotten by the Conservative Government, both within welcomed assurances from the Minister that regulations the crisis and before. will be brought in to ensure that trustees should not Finally, on the issue of pension underpayment for have to proceed with a transfer where there are good married women, it feels as if almost every week a new grounds for believing that a proposed transfer involves story comes to light of the DWP’s mistakes in paying moving pension savings into a scam. women their full pension entitlements. It is particularly On auto-enrolling people into pension guidance concerning that many of those affected contacted the appointments, Pension Wise is an excellent service with Department and were wrongly told that their pensions high satisfaction ratings, but only one in 33 of those eligible were correct. This is simply not good enough. to use it do so. Surely, it is more important than ever Every single one of the issues I have addressed relies on that people make use of impartial guidance appointments an effective departmental delivery of pension entitlements, and we would welcome concrete proposals by the yet this issue raises profound questions about the ability Government to improve take-up of these appointments. of the DWP to do just that. Labour called for an inquiry into the mismanagement of pensions payments earlier On pension charges, at a time when millions are this year. It is time for the Government to take urgent struggling, it is vital that pension costs and charges are action on this growing scandal, to make sure that every reasonable and transparent, and that people receive woman affected is paid the pension to which she is entitled value for money. Research by PensionBee found that and to redress the root causes of the mistakes made. 70% of non-advised draw-down customers pay more than 0.75% a year in charges costing them £40 million In conclusion, putting future pension policy on a to £50 million extra a year and more than £175 million long-term footing necessitates careful planning and a since the pension freedoms were introduced. The long-term consensus-driven approach. Labour stands ready to impact of high costs and charges for income draw-down support the Government where they bring forward could be significant. It is argued that putting costs and proposals to protect people’spensions and savings.However, charges on the simpler annual statement would confuse we urge the Government to take action to address the people. Instead of being provided with specific information clear cases of pension injustices that I have highlighted, about how much they are paying, they would be signposted as well as those likely to emerge through the pandemic. to what could be pages and pages of information about We also call on the Government to take a greater role in charges. We note that the Minister has said that costs ensuring that funds are invested in a socially and and charges information will only be displayed on the environmentally beneficial way. pensions dashboard in the longer term, but we would welcome any discussions about a guarantee for value 3.49 pm for money as well. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work I return to climate change, which is a very important and Pensions (Guy Opperman): It is a pleasure to serve area for future pension policy. The investment decisions under your chairmanship, Mr Hosie. I congratulate my taken by pensions involve trillions of pounds—the kind hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Rob Roberts) on of money that can catalyse significant change when securing this important debate, and I look forward 363WH Future of Pensions Policy8 DECEMBER 2020 Future of Pensions Policy 364WH greatly to summing up about 35 different points, in My hon. Friend the Member for Delyn raised the copious detail, in exactly nine minutes, and I undertake idea of an automatic entitlement to pension credit. I to try to write to hon. Members where I am unable fear that is something that is simply not possible on the to do so. data available to the state at this stage. There may be a Starting with one particular point, the hon. Member time in the future when such data and capability exist, for East Dunbartonshire (Amy Callaghan) was mentioned; but it is not possible at the present stage. I also had a brain tumour and collapsed in the House of I turn to the point he raises on automatic enrolment. Commons in 2011, and I wish her tremendous good Many things were said not only in respect of the cross-party fortune in her recovery. We miss her, and I look forward nature of this particular problem, but also the desire for to her coming back to this place, causing me difficulties a better outcome. Automatic enrolment has ensured and posing important and genuine questions, which I that the participation of private-sector eligible women am sure she will continue to do. We all send her our best has increased from 40% to 86%. That is equal to men, I wishes. should say. For private-sector eligible 22 to 29-year-olds, My hon. Friend the Member for Delyn secured an it has gone up from 24% to 85%. In 2019-20, working important debate, the fundamental point of which is people will save an extra £18 billion into workplace that pensions play a vital part in all our constituents’ pensions as a result of those reforms. All Members of lives, and it is right that we debate these matters and Parliament will find that there are many thousands of champion their causes on an ongoing basis. While the constituents and employers who are doing the right Government’s immediate priority is the conquering of thing and providing the 8% automatic enrolment. covid and to build back better, and we have a plan for Of course there is more to do. We will be instituting jobs taking things forward, we are also clear in our the lower earnings threshold from the age of 18. The desire to ensure that we protect people’s pensions and Government have made it crucially clear, following the support people in saving for their retirement. It is timely 2017 review, that that is what we will do, and without a and right that my hon. Friend raises these points, and I shadow of a doubt that will be brought forward. I hope will attempt to address them in a bit of detail. it is at some stage in this Parliament, but obviously I will first touch on the fundamentals of the state these matters are somewhat beyond my control. pension and the fact that we now spend £126 billion on Speaking of things that are beyond my control, my hon. pensioners—the highest that has ever been in this Friend the Member for Delyn raised the very important country—of which the state pension is £102 billion. issue of lifetime allowance on tax relief pension savings. The state pension has gone up by £1,900 in real terms He waxed lyrical about a point that I am delighted to since 2010, thanks to the triple lock and various other say that I am going to raise with the Chancellor personally. measures, and we are in a position that material deprivation I look forward to the Chancellor addressing it at the for pensioners has fallen from 10% to 6% in 2018-19. Budget statement in March if he feels so inclined. I Average pensioner incomes have grown significantly in hope my hon. Friend’s plea is taken on board, but real terms over the past two decades. Average weekly clearly that is a matter entirely for the Chancellor. income in 1994-95 was £165 a week at 2018-19 prices, On automatic enrolment, my hon. Friend raised a after housing costs, compared with £320 a week in very interesting issue that I want to touch on: the idea 2018-19. Clearly, there is more to do, and my hon. of a 1% saving added on to the automatic enrolment in Friend rightfully raises the issue of pension credit. the future. There is no question but that we want to The policy was introduced by a previous Chancellor, look at the possibly of having a rainy-day fund, whether Gordon Brown, under the Labour Government, and it is a 1% add-on to whatever the future of automatic successive Governments have had a variety of strategies, enrolment is. I am looking at that personally. Clearly, advertising campaigns and initiatives to try to boost there are many decisions to be made about the future of take-up. It is patently clear from the available statistics automatic enrolment, but without a shadow of a doubt that, even with significant advertising campaigns, take-up trying to improve the financial capability, resilience and of pension credit has been between 60% and 76%. For inclusion of this country is massively important. example, the Labour Government spent over £14 million after the launch of pension credit and the take-up went On that issue, we talked about the mid-life MOT,which down, if not remained static, that particular year. we back totally. I met the new chief executive of the Financial Conduct Authority to discuss how we can The reality is that we need to work with trusted improve the capability of individuals from the age of 47. partners, and that is what we are trying to do. We are Apparently that is when men are in their mid-life; for trying to institute a variety of campaigns. We had a women, it is later. The reality is that we want tremendously nationwide campaign in spring last year to boost pension to improve the mid-life MOT as an option so that we credit. We also have the online pension credit claim address wealth, work and wellbeing at an early stage. facility, ensuring ease of access for anyone wishing to make a claim. A whole host of other matters are under I have about a minute left. Simpler statements will go way to take the pension credit take-up forward, but I forward on state pension age increases.As I indicated to the would particularly inform the House that, following a hon. Member for Feltham and Heston (Seema Malhotra), cross-party meeting with the House of Lords, we have that is a Labour party policy that the coalition and reached out to the BBC and to Tim Davie, its new chief Conservative Governments have continued to implement, executive, to see whether the BBC can do anything to and there are no plans to change that. We have an improve and expand on that particular process. I will ongoing review of costs and charges, and clearly great put on the record in the Library the letter that Baroness work is going forward. Stedman-Scott and I have written to Mr Davie to see to I am deeply grateful to the House for the opportunity what extent we could significantly enhance the take-up to address pension policy. There is no question but that of pension credit. these are serious issues. The Government are absolutely 365WH Future of Pensions Policy 8 DECEMBER 2020 366WH

[Guy Opperman] Marine Renewables: Government Support for Commercial Roll-out zeroed in on trying to make pension policy work. I totally dispute the claim that we are not doing anything on climate change. With COP26 coming up, we are [JUDITH CUMMINS in the Chair] leading the way. We are the first country to legislate for net zero and for the taskforce on climate-related financial 4.3 pm disclosures. We lead the way on all matters, including green gilts. I believe very strongly that climate change Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): and pensions will go hand in hand under this Prime I beg to move, Minister’s leadership. I thank my hon. Friend the Member That this House has considered Government support for the for Delyn for this debate. commercial roll-out of marine renewables. It is a pleasure to be here in Westminster Hall—not 3.58 pm least because somebody thought it would be a good Rob Roberts: I thank the Minister for summing up. I idea to turn off the heating in Portcullis House today—and am interested to hear about using the BBC to enhance to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Cummins. This pension credit take-up. I suggested that very thing to my debate is both timely and—for a half hour Adjournment right hon. Friend the Work and Pensions Secretary just debate in Westminster Hall—very well attended. I thank last week at Department for Work and Pensions questions, all right hon. and hon. Members present. so it is good to know that there is movement on that. I I say timely because it follows hot on the heels of the was very pleased to hear about auto-enrolment, changes speech by the Prime Minister last week, where he announced to age limits, losing the lower earnings limit and adding plans for a green industrial revolution creating 250,000 a savings element—all very good. jobs. That has the potential to be a highly significant I thank all hon. Members. There seemed to be wide- milestone on the road to net zero carbon emissions by ranging agreement on things such as promoting the 2050. The speech included many laudable goals, and it idea of automation where we can and financial education. is my experience from many years in the House that That may include not only knowledge of facts but the where ambitious targets are made and married to genuine skills, critical thinking and analysis that will serve our political commitment, that building cross-party consensus young people well. There was cross-party support and in the House for them is not a difficult process; I do agreement on many issues, although sadly not for the hope that we will be able to do so. comments of the hon. Member for East Renfrewshire If what we got from the Prime Minister last week was (Kirsten Oswald) on Scottish independence. That is for the strategy, then today I want to focus the attention of another day. the House and the Minister on one very important I appreciated the hon. Member for North East Fife tactic: marine energy. The generation of electricity using (Wendy Chamberlain) channelling her inner Donald wave and tidal power is an industrial sector in which the Rumsfeld and trying to tackle the unknown unknowns. UK has the ability to lead the world. Much of what I I think we will allow our mortal Minister to tackle the want to discuss today will not be new to the Minister. It known unknowns before we give him any powers of follows on from a briefing he had in the House from clairvoyance. That is definitely a wise thing to be doing. leading industrial developers in the sector earlier in the I appreciate everyone’s contributions, including that of year, organised by the all-party parliamentary group on the Minister. marine energy and tidal lagoons. Question put and agreed to. What is needed now is the finely tuned support mechanisms from Government to turn technical feasibility Resolved, into commercial application. I declare a very obvious That this House has considered the future of pensions policy. and particular constituency interest. Living in an island community, one is acutely aware of the power of the sea Stewart Hosie (in the Chair): In order to allow for the and never far away from it. It can affect just about every safe exit of hon. Members participating in this item of aspect of life. Orkney is home to the European Marine business and the safe arrival of those participating in Energy Centre, the undisputed world leader in testing the next, I am briefly suspending the sitting. wave and tidal devices, both domestic and international. Others envy that status, but it will not last for ever 4 pm without the positive signals of support that I seek to get Sitting suspended. from the Minister today. The Minister will be aware that the EU is already looking at ways to ramp up its efforts to exploit the opportunities that marine renewables present. History tells us that, although we have an advantage having done the groundbreaking research and development work, there are plenty of other places in the world where that could be deployed commercially, as happened with the development of onshore wind. Although my constituency is currently central to this emerging technology, even now this is not an industry confined to any one constituency, region or nation of the United Kingdom. Work is ongoing in engineering workshops and university research centres throughout 367WH Marine Renewables: Government 8 DECEMBER 2020 Marine Renewables: Government 368WH Support for Commercial Roll-out Support for Commercial Roll-out the country, from Strangford lough to the Isle of Wight, Pembrokeshire is one of those hot prospects for the from the Pentland firth to the south-west of England, development of marine renewables in the years ahead. this is a truly UK-wide industry. Of course, on the Does he agree that this area has been discussed a lot? It mention of Strangford lough, I give way to the hon. is very easy for everyone to be in agreement about the Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon). rhetoric, and how good these things would potentially be in the future, but what we need now is some practical Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): As an Orangeman, steps that help build investor confidence to unlock the there is only one green revolution that I will support, projects and see actual, practical growth in the sector. and it is this one. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the movement of the tide is as sure as the sun rising Mr Carmichael: I absolutely agree. I have been watching and setting? Projects such as the tidal energy generator and engaging with this industry since I was first elected in Strangford lough, which is a pilot scheme, has given in 2001. Candidly, we have seen a few false dawns over my constituency a glimpse into tidal potential that that time, but it is clear that we have got to that point, should be further explored. where it is so tantalisingly close, that we are now looking at that missing link to get us over the line. Mr Carmichael: I absolutely agree, and I would add I will offer a couple of illustrations from my constituency. to that list of tides and sunsets the attendance of the Orbital Marine Power is at the forefront of this industry, hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) at and the most recent prototype successfully generated Adjournment debates in the Chamber and Westminster 3.25 GWh into the UK grid during a 12-month period Hall. I think the chairman of the APPG wished to of trials at the European Marine Energy Centre. Orbital intervene. has raised £7 million of construction debt finance through the Abundance crowdfunding platform to finance the Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): I am grateful to building of a commercial tidal generator for deployment the right hon. Gentleman for securing this debate and in spring 2021. Orbital and its investors are now awaiting allowing me to intervene as chairman of the all-party the right signals from the Government to go fully parliamentary group on marine energy and tidal lagoons. commercial. As he and the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) Orbital illustrates well the opportunity that we have have highlighted, this is a resource of enormous potential here. Some 80% of the Orbital machine currently under across the UK. construction is from UK suppliers. It believes that this We have representatives here from Wales. It is true to could increase to 95% if the correct market conditions say that Bardsey will become the first island in the were put in place. The contrast with wind power, which world to be entirely powered by tidal stream. The other has relied overwhelmingly on imported machinery, is projects in Morlais, Pembrokeshire and Perpetuus Tidal almost too obvious to mention—I say almost, because Energy Centre on the Isle of Wight, which is one of five nothing is ever too obvious to mention in politics. centres funded through the Government’sTIGER project, give an idea, as the Minister is aware, of the potential. The same runs true of Nova Innovation, which deployed Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that, with COP26 the world’s first offshore tidal array in Shetland. in Glasgow next year, if the contracts for difference Construction of the Shetland tidal array had over 80% UK auction were to be just beforehand and marine energy content, including 25% of the supply chain spend in to be given a fraction of the capacity there, that would Shetland. Operation of the array has seen 98% UK be a fabulous project to highlight at COP26? supply chain content, with over 50% of project expenditure going to companies in the northern isles, such as Shetland Composites, which made the blades for Nova’s turbines Mr Carmichael: I absolutely agree because, as I am and is now one of the top tidal blade manufacturers in about to illustrate, we have a nascent industry. It is Europe. Nova expects this high local content to be growing but it is in a position to undertake that important replicated at its other UK sites in Wales, Scotland, role for the UK on the world stage. According to the Northern Ireland and the south of England. UK Marine Energy Council, there are currently 22 tidal stream and 23 wave developers active in the UK, with If we can be world leaders in the domestic application an estimated investment to date exceeding £500 million of marine renewable technologies, we will also be in pole of private capital in developing marine energy technologies, position to become the leading exporters to the world. and £70 million in direct public support. Make no mistake: these devices are substantial pieces of engineering, so the potential for jobs and green industrial Estimates of support suggest that the tidal stream benefits is enormous—I would say, parenthetically, that could deliver £1.4 billion gross value added by 2030, this is the point at which we should be looking at export while the figure for wave is £4 billion by 2040. Those finance support for these companies, so that when we figures, plus the thousands of jobs that would come get to that point we are not having to play catch-up. with them, are a tremendous prize. There are currently tidal stream sites with an aggregated output of 1 GW The missing link, however, has long been one that under development in the UK, awaiting a positive signal would give wave and tidal energy the chance to develop from the Government. The industry is ready to move, commercially to the point at which it would, like other the technology is there, the private investment is primed renewable technologies, outgrow the need for subsidy. but it does need a helping hand from Government at To get to that stage, it simply cannot be linked in with this critical stage. other renewable technologies—often better established— and told to compete. Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con): The That brings me to my first ask of the Minister. We right hon. Gentleman and I worked together in need a bit of fine tuning of the Government’s approach Government, and he knows that my constituency in in the next CfD round. It is welcome that tidal and wave 369WH Marine Renewables: Government 8 DECEMBER 2020 Marine Renewables: Government 370WH Support for Commercial Roll-out Support for Commercial Roll-out [Mr Carmichael] 4.17 pm technologies will be in pot 2 for the forthcoming CfD Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con): I had round, with offshore wind in a separate pot 3. That not intended to speak, but now I am on my feet, and learns from the failures of the past, and goes some way why give up the opportunity? I will put on the record to addressing the most obvious weaknesses, which pitted again how excited I am by some of the developments off so manytechnologies at very different stages of development the west Wales coast. There is no shortage of projects against one another. coming forward and companies with various track records, but lots of good ideas and good intent for this new What the industry is really looking for is a pot within industry, which we have debated and talked about a lot a pot—in other words, an allocated amount to be in recent years. As the right hon. Member for Orkney competed for by tidal and wave developers at a price and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) said, we are on the cusp that will not only make their projects economically of seeing those developments come to fruition if the viable and able to attract investment but, importantly, right conditions are put in place. will do so in a manner that does not interfere with the overall objectives of the CfD round. The ability to Ben Lake (Ceredigion) (PC): Will the right hon. create that ring-fenced refinement exists within legislation Gentleman give way? already. It is imperative that we act now. As we know from other renewable technologies, once the process of a commercial roll-out in underway, the costs drop like a Stephen Crabb: I will give way to my next-door stone. neighbour in Ceredigion. As well as having an immediate effect, the creation of a tidal and wave-specific allocation would provide a Ben Lake: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that clear and long-awaited policy signal and will pave the one of the most exciting aspects of the sector’s potential way for private investment, and not just in the technologies is that areas such as ours in south-west Wales have the but in the infrastructure required to support the deployment. opportunity to be at the forefront of a new green It is worth remembering that, by definition, most of industrial revolution? that work will take place in coastal communities, from the Cromarty firth and the Clyde to the north-west and Stephen Crabb: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely south-west of England, many of which have suffered right. badly for years as a result of post-industrial decline, The only other point that I will make, before I allow even before the impact of the current pandemic. the Minister to respond, is that in a constituency such My second ask of the Minister is one that he has as mine, for the last almost 50 years, the economy has heard before. The Government should support technology been heavily dependent on oil refining. We as a country, developers by implementing a complementary proposal and as a Government, have now made a commitment to that would support technology developers not yet able bring forward a ban on the sale of new diesel and petrol to participate in the CfD process. The innovation power engines, and we are moving away from a carbon-based purchase agreement would allow a developer to sell economy. Constituencies such as mine are vulnerable to electricity to an electricity supplier at a strike price to be the big strategic changes that we are mandating as part agreed with the Department for Business, Energy and of our efforts to meet the global challenge of climate Industrial Strategy. change. There is a duty on the Government to help bring forward replacement jobs—high-quality jobs and I understand that that is not a BEIS responsibility apprenticeships—in new exciting clean technologies. and that it sits with the Treasury, and we all know that the Treasury is not always the easiest Department to deal with, so I offer it to the Minister as his opportunity Virginia Crosbie (Ynys Môn) (Con): I thank my for glory. This emerging industry needs a champion right hon. Friend for giving way, and I particularly inside Government, someone who will prosecute the thank the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland case with the Treasury so that the potential that we have (Mr Carmichael) for securing the debate—he and I have all spoken about today can be realised and something an awful lot in common, both in our commitment to marine that he has heard about can then become a reality. He energy and because we come from island communities. could be that champion for the marine renewable industry. However, does my right hon. Friend agree that projects I can think of nobody better for the role. such as Morlais and Minesto on Ynys Môn need to have bespoke Government support packages? In short, what the marine energy sector needs today from the Government is not a handout, but a signal of support that can in turn be used to open the door to Stephen Crabb: I absolutely agree. My hon. Friend is private investment and to create a platform for a vibrant a very active and vocal champion for energy developments industrial sector that ticks all the Government’s boxes: in her constituency, and she has put her point on the clean energy, technical innovation, world leadership, record very effectively. export potential, industrial regeneration, a genuinely I will now allow the Minister to respond to the British product, and economic benefits for hard-pressed debate. coastal communities the length and breadth of the United Kingdom. It is an opportunity to turn the 4.20 pm rhetoric of the Prime Minister’s speech last week, and the Government’s laudable aspirations for levelling up, The Minister for Business, Energy and Clean Growth into a genuine political reality. If the Minister will take (Kwasi Kwarteng): I am delighted to be able finally to on that cause and fight it for us, he will have the support respond to the debate. There have been some really of all parties and all parts of the country. interesting interventions, and it is a shame that we have 371WH Marine Renewables: Government 8 DECEMBER 2020 Marine Renewables: Government 372WH Support for Commercial Roll-out Support for Commercial Roll-out only had half an hour for it. It is also a real pleasure to which, as he reminded us, is a world-beating centre. Of participate in this debate with you in the Chair, course, it initially enjoyed Government support, as he Mrs Cummins. will well remember, because he was in government at I will address the two points made by the right hon. the time. It is something that I would be very willing to Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael), engage with him on. and then I will address some of the wider concerns relating to economic opportunities and the levelling-up Mr Carmichael: First of all, I understand the point agenda. First, the right hon. Gentleman gave me two the Minister makes about the operation of CfDs. When challenges: the first was to look at the pot structure of I was in government in 2011 and 2012, when the CfDs the CfD round; and the second was, as he put it, my bid were introduced by the Energy Acts, we did not really for glory within the Government, by championing the know how they would work, so we have learned from cause of marine energy. He will know that I have a real the experience. Every time there is a development pot, interest in this subject. I have seen the APPG on marine one technology emerges, which is why the ring-fencing energy and tidal lagoons and its chair, my hon. Friend is important. On the issue of the evidence, will the the Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham), a number Minister look at the figures that I have given him today of times on this issue, and I have also attended APPG relating to the private sector investment that is primed meetings that the right hon. Gentleman, my hon. Friend and ready to go? Surely there could be no better indicator the Member for Gloucester and I have had the privilege of technological ability than the willingness of the of hosting here in Parliament. private sector to put its money into it. To begin with, the right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right about the pot structure, and I pay tribute to him Kwasi Kwarteng: The right hon. Gentleman raises a for actually attributing some degree of good policy on fair point. The private sector is willing to go, of course, the part of the Government, because we split the offshore provided it is supported initially by the Government. wind element—the offshore wind competition—into a That is exactly the kind of conversation we should be separate pot, and we have allowed marine tidal projects having. He made some good points in his opening and remote island wind projects, which may be of speech. One of the phrases that stuck in my mind was interest to him, to remain in pot 2. that we should “open the door” to private investment. The right hon. Gentleman said that the competition That is exactly what the CfD round has done. That is was unfair, but of course when we set up the pot exactly what we would hope to achieve, should we go structure we did not know that it was unfair, because we down that route with regard to marine energy. No had not seen the progress in the development of offshore Government in the world can simply spend their way to wind. And all I will say to him now on this issue is that I creating the industry. The trick is to create the financial am very sympathetic to ideas, as he put it, of having a incentives, as we have done with offshore wind, to allow pot within a pot. That means that within pot 2 there us to open the door to private investors. would be a reserved quantum for marine projects, I pay tribute not only to the right hon. Gentleman, particularly tidal projects, to be able to compete for. I but to the communities he represents and to my right can assure him that that idea is being considered. hon. Friend the Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire Having said all that, however, there is an issue, as the (Stephen Crabb)—I am glad I got the constituency right hon. Gentleman will be aware, about the actual right; I knew it was not Ceredigion. He made the point costs—the initial costs of marine technology and how well. He represents a community that has clearly been we can support such technology. This is very much a under a huge amount of economic pressure and even chicken and egg situation, because people who are keen distress with covid, and the green industrial revolution supporters of marine energy technology would say, represents a real answer and a real chance to build back “Well, if you don’t support it, how are you going to better, to level up, and to increase and widen economic bring the costs down?”, and of course, our friends in the opportunity across the country. It is rare to see three Government, including within the Department for Business, constituent countries of the United Kingdom represented Energy and Industrial Strategy and, in particular, the in debates in Westminster Hall. I do not think we have Treasury, would say, “Well, if something is going to cost Scottish representatives here. £250 per megawatt-hour and nuclear is at £92 per megawatt-hour, there is a discrepancy there.” Mr Carmichael: All four are here. Obviously, public money must be well considered and looked after, and the challenge is very much on the industry, as I have said to industry players and champions Kwasi Kwarteng: Forgive me; I saw straight through on separate occasions. The challenge is for them to the Scottish representative. In this debate, we have show how these costs can come down. If they can, then representatives from all four countries of the United I am sure that the Government would be very willing to Kingdom. That is significant, and points to the fact that support the technology. the levelling-up agenda is geographically extremely diverse. The green industrial revolution and green energy topics We have initiated a marine energy call for evidence. engage all four of our constituent nations. It is an The right hon. Gentleman will remember that there was excellent debate for that reason. a whole debate about the Swansea Bay lagoon. When the development consent order for that lapsed, the The Government remain absolutely committed to Secretary of State said that we would have a call for renewable energy, and that was highlighted specifically evidence and we are engaged in that process. I fully by the Prime Minister’s 10-point plan. We believe that recognise the economic opportunities for the coastal the only way we can get to net zero by 2050 is through communities that he represents so ably, and I also pay innovation. Tidal technology is part of that innovation. tribute to the European Marine Energy Centre in Orkney, The only caveat is that it cannot come at any cost. 373WH Marine Renewables: Government 8 DECEMBER 2020 374WH Support for Commercial Roll-out [Kwasi Kwarteng] Nagorno-Karabakh My right hon. Friend the Member for Preseli 4.32 pm Pembrokeshire referred to eternal waiting and eternal words and rhetoric. We must have this dialogue and we Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con): must at least show a pathway to reducing costs, and if I beg to move, we can do that—I am sure we will be able to do That this House has considered the conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh. that—we will in the short term be able to put flesh on Nagorno-Karabakh is one of those places that few the bones and realise in fact some of the aspirational people can pronounce properly, let alone spell, let alone rhetoric exchanged across the House for many years. locate on a map, yet in recent months it has been the location of a bloody war involving thousands of fatalities Richard Graham: The Minister has been generous in and casualties; bombardment of civilian areas and his support for renewables in general, and for marine destruction of towns and cultural sites; the use of energy specifically. As referred to by the right hon. internationally banned munitions; and now a return to Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael), he ethnic cleansing. It has involved not just Armenians has been willing to see representatives of the industry and Azerbaijanis, but global powers such as Russia and and hear ideas for the future auction. Will he, at the Turkey, with significant implications for geopolitics far same time, try to find a few moments to look at the beyond this remote area of the southern Caucasus. innovative purchasing agreement proposed by the industry, I declare an interest as the chairman of the all-party allowing a tax reduction basis but with nothing rewarded parliamentary group for Armenia. I am well aware that till it has been delivered, in terms of energy? Will he this has been a long-running dispute between Armenians commend it to his friends at the Treasury? and Azeris over many years, which was only contained during the days of the Soviet empire, and which flared Kwasi Kwarteng: I can absolutely assure my hon. up again in the 1990s after the fall of the Soviet Union. Friend that that is something I will be looking into. I am also aware that most of the international community With regard to my BEIS commitments specifically, we recognises Nagorno-Karabakh as, most recently, largely can potentially get some movement on the auction. I do Azeri territory,and I do not want to reopen that centuries- not know, and it is part of a discussion. Once that is up old argument. Whatever one’s view on the future and running, perhaps we could have a further debate government of Nagorno-Karabakh—as part of Azerbaijan, and a further push on tax treatment in the way he as an independent state per an earlier referendum result, describes. I would clearly be happy to raise that with or as part of an extended Armenian state—I hope we Treasury colleagues, although the right hon. Member can all agree that engaging in a bloody war and an for Orkney and Shetland knows from his experience in almost medieval-style battlefield invasion is not the way Government how fraught some of those conversations to resolve the dispute. However slow and problematic it can sometimes be. BEIS will certainly look at the auction hasproven,alegitimate,internationallysupportedresolution seriously. We hope to push forward with that innovation. process has been in place, namely the Organisation for Question put and agreed to. Security and Co-operation in Europe’s Minsk group. The current status of that group is rather unclear after 4.30 pm the conflict, with the boots on the ground now provided Sitting suspended. by Russian troops, and others supported by Turkey. I am not going to go through the whole history of the conflict—certainly not in an hour-long debate. The recent military action started at the end of July, when Azeri forces launched unprovoked attacks at various points on the Armenia-Azerbaijan border in the north-east corner of Armenia, far away from Nagorno-Karabakh. That attack was defended against robustly by Armenia. It was accompanied by bellicose statements from Azeri Government Ministers, especially the Ministry of Defence, which raised the prospect of the Armenian nuclear power station at Metsamor being within the range of Azeri missiles. It was followed by deliberately provocative joint Turkish-Azeri military exercises close to the Armenian border and words of encouragement from the Turkish Government under the slogan, “Two countries,one nation”. I wrote to the Foreign Secretary on behalf of the all-party group and that letter was published. I received chastisement, as I would call it, from the Turkish ambassador, who criticised me for the deeply biased tone of my letter that failed to reflect the current situation in the region. He said that he had irrefutable evidence, both circumstantial and concrete, that clearly indicated that the current aggression and violence were once again started as a result of Armenian actions. When I asked him what that was, he failed to produce any evidence—concrete, circumstantial or otherwise. I think it is widely accepted that this conflict was started, 375WH Nagorno-Karabakh 8 DECEMBER 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh 376WH completely unprovoked, by Azerbaijan, yet there was they are a trinket, only for them to explode. Those hardly a whisper from western powers, including, I regret cluster bombs were used on a maternity hospital, schools to say, the United Kingdom, beyond the usual diplomatic and Shushi Cathedral, as witnessed by journalists from niceties about returning to the negotiating table. That The Telegraph and other western representatives. They was clearly a prelude to the serious assault on Nagorno- were delivered in Russian-made 9M55 Smerch rockets, Karabakh that started on 27 September—again described by Amnesty International as “cruel and reckless” unprovoked. and causing “untold death, injury and misery”. Also deeply worrying about this conflict was that Turkey, a Dr Rupa Huq (Ealing Central and Acton) (Lab): I NATO member,illegally transferred NATO-grade director agree with the hon. Gentleman. This might seem a drones to a non-NATO member country for use against conflict in far-off lands, but the diaspora communities civilians. That did, at least, attract a cancellation of here have brought it to our attention. I know that he export licences for certain defence items from Canada, knows my constituent Annette Moskofian, from the Austria and the United States. UK branch of the Armenian National Committee, the Most worrying of all was the importation by Turkey ANC. The Hayshen centre and the Navasartian centre of thousands of jihadi insurgents brought in from Syria are also in my constituency, and they played a vital part and Libya. Videos have been circulating of them openly when it felt as if the eyes of the world were looking involved in the conflict, and in some cases openly elsewhere. parading the decapitated heads of executed Armenian Tim Loughton: Absolutely. I know that there is a soldiers. It is reported they are paid a bonus—literally—for large Armenian community in the hon. Lady’sconstituency the heads of members of the Armenian military.Armenian and I pay tribute to Annette Moskofian—I will supply families report having received gruesome videos of the Hansard with the spelling later—and the work of the mutilated bodies of their relatives, which were sent to ANC, which so ably represents the Armenian community them by these terrorists. Apparently, it is advertised in here. northern Syria that those who sign up for settlement in Nagorno-Karabakh will be given a parcel of land. The invasion took place almost 100 years to the day since the Turks invaded the newly independent republic The UN Office of the High Commissioner for Human of Armenia against the backdrop of the Armenian Rights said genocide, which the Turks still deny took place. On “reports indicate that Turkey engaged in large-scale recruitment 27 September, Azerbaijan launched sustained air and and transfer of Syrian men to Azerbaijan through armed factions, artillery attacks as well as an infantry offensive along some of which are affiliated with the Syrian National Army”. the entire line of contact with Nagorno-Karabakh, Chris Kwaja, who chaired the working group, added: indiscriminately shelling civilian populations and peaceful “The alleged role of Turkey is all the more concerning settlements, including the capital Stepanakert. We should given the similar allegations addressed earlier this year by remember that Nagorno-Karabakh has a population of the Working Group in relation its role in recruiting, deploying just 146,000, 91% of them Armenian in origin. They are and financing such fighters to take part in the conflict in supported by the small country of Armenia, which has Libya,” a population of just 3 million. It was attacked by The report said: oil-rich Azerbaijan, which has a population of 10 million and a defence budget of almost $2 billion annually. It “The way in which these individuals were recruited, transported and used in and around the Nagorno-Karabakh spent $1.6 billion on a defence deal with Israel alone— conflict zone appeared consistent with the definition of a almost the equivalent of a single year’s budget. That mercenary,as set out by relevant international legal instruments”. attack involved the use of F-16 Turkish fighter planes and rocket launchers brought in from Nakhchivan, That is the UN Human Rights Office of the High which neighbours Turkey. Turkey has one of the largest Commissioner speaking; it is not just hearsay. standing armies and is one of the largest spenders on This is deeply worrying. After 45 days of bloody defence in the whole world. conflict, a ceasefire was signed on 10 November, brokered During the 45-day bloody conflict that followed, by President Putin and the Russians. The Armenian countless soldiers on both sides lost their lives; bodies Prime Minister signed this declaration clearly under are literally still strewn across the battlefields, making it duress, without any reference to the President, Ministers difficult to tot up the numbers. I was reminded by the or Parliament, because it was a fait accompli imposed International Committee of the Red Cross that 5,000 people by Russia and Turkey. Under its terms, the indigenous are still unaccounted for from the conflict back in the Armenian population from three regions were given 1990s. The Red Cross also estimates that there have been just days to evacuate their lifelong homes. The Russians 150 civilian fatalities and more than 600 injuries. Fourteen gave nine Armenian villages just 48 hours to leave their thousand civilian structures—homes, schools, hospitals ancestral homes, without any chance to organise their and heritage sites—were damaged or destroyed, and exodus or get support from the UN High Commissioner there were attacks on churches full of people at prayer. for Refugees, for example. The most worrying aspect of the conflict has been the The Russians and Azeris continue to draw arbitrary use of Israeli so-called kamikaze drones—silent killers borders without involving representatives from Armenia that hang over a battlefield; before anyone knows they or Nagorno-Karabakh itself. What has become an island are there, they explode their deadly cargo. That was a of remaining Nagorno-Karabakh territory is to be gamechanger for this conflict in a notoriously impenetrable connected to Armenia through a narrow Lachin corridor mountainous area of the world. Also worrying was the under Russia-Azeri control and a new link between use of banned cluster bomb munitions—the so-called Nakhchivan and Turkey in the west, and Azerbaijan in Kinder surprise ribbon bombs. They have ribbons on the east has been carved out of land in the south of them and are often picked up by children who think Armenia itself. 377WH Nagorno-Karabakh 8 DECEMBER 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh 378WH

[Tim Loughton] Yet few have come to the aid of Armenia in the past few months. Armenia and the Armenian people in Nagorno- Baroness Cox, who has been an extraordinary champion Karabakh are the victims in all this. of the Armenian nation and people, recently visited the All this happened when the US was somewhat war zone—I think it was her 87th visit to that part of preoccupied by the controversy over the presidential the world. She reported back on what she had seen in elections. There have been minimal sanctions on weapons, deeply distressing terms: and everything I have described has largely gone “Lines of refugees taking their belongings heading for the unchallenged. I welcome the meetings that we had with safety of Armenia carrying whatever possessions they could the Minister, and I acknowledge the calls by the Foreign … taking with them livestock, even digging up the graves of Office for an end to the conflict, a return to the negotiating loved ones fearful for their bodies being desecrated after tables, and respect for human rights. We have also given they had left and torching their houses so they would not fall into the hands of the Azerians”. some aid in the region. However, when a UN motion was proposed to prevent intervention of third parties in This is ethnic cleansing pure and simple. No Armenian the conflict and to denounce the presence of Syrian feels safe in lands that have been their homes for years; mercenaries in the region, which was so important, it they are being intimidated out, to be replaced by Azeris was reported that the United Kingdom Government and jihadi terrorists. That should raise serious security stood in the way of the proposal. I would welcome a alarm bells for the west as well. response from the Minister on that. Genocide Watch declared a genocide emergency alert Where has been the condemnation of the use of last month, but the cleansing continues apace. We had a Syrian mercenaries? Where has been the condemnation briefing from the International Committee of the Red of the illegal use of cluster munitions? Where has been Cross through the Inter-Parliamentary Union last week. the condemnation and pressure on Turkey, a NATO It calculated that there have been many thousands of member and ally,which has allowed NATO-grade weapons military casualties, but the figure is still unknown because to be used against a democratic, sovereign country— the bodies are still unretrieved. It has no idea of the Armenia—and is now exercising a worrying extension number of detainees on each side. It is hard to access of its power into the Caucasus and beyond? I am afraid those prisoners, but there have been reports of torture that the silence has been deafening. Many in Armenia and executions. Russian peacekeeping forces and Turks are claiming that their ally, the United Kingdom, has let in some places actually turn out to be Syrian mercenaries. them down, and I can see why. Why is that small population in a remote part of the We urgently need western peacekeepers in the region world significant? It is significant because we should all to monitor ethnic cleansing and the activities of the take an interest when a nation and the peace-loving Syrian mercenaries. We need a proper investigation into people in those territories are persecuted in an unprovoked war crimes and the treatment of prisoners. We need to way. It is also significant because of the geopolitical consider the future independence of Nagorno-Karabakh, implications. Turkey has extended its influence eastwards which the citizens voted for many years ago and which to the Caspian, in an unholy alliance with the Russians. was recently supported in the Parliaments of France, Russia has reasserted its influence over former Soviet Holland and Belgium. I think it is time, at last, to republics and effectively stamped on the independent recognise the Armenian genocide by the Ottoman Turks—a credentials of Armenia, one of the few democracies in century-old outrage in which between a million and a the area. Russia will effectively exert control over the million and a half men, women and children were Armenian military, take over Armenian oil projects, massacred by the Ottomans, in the first genocide of the effectively gain a military base in Nagorno-Karabakh modern age. I should tell the Minister that, with Members and take over Armenia’s foreign policy. Those are all of both Houses, I have prepared the Armenian genocide significant shifts in the spheres of influence in that 1915 to 1923 recognition Bill to commemorate the volatile region. Russia has been extending its influence Armenian genocide through official recognition and in Ukraine, Turkey and Syria, getting a taste for territorial remembrance, and to put formal recognition of that expansion by force or stealth. genocide on a statutory basis. I hope that there will be The Azeris will be given free rein to continue the considerable support for that measure in both Houses. ethnic cleansing of Nagorno-Karabakh and the suppression Terrible things have happened in the southern Caucasus. of its Christian culture. In the past 15 years, Azerbaijan They are no less terrible because of the remoteness of a has been more aggressive in destroying UNESCO-protected country that few know about; but those terrible things, Armenian world heritage sites than even ISIS was in perpetrated specifically by Azerbaijan and its Turkish Syria. Not a single church or Armenian cross stone has allies, need to be acknowledged, called out and punished. survived in the historic Armenian Nakhchivan area. I ask the Minister to start that process today. More than 189 churches and 10,000 Christian crosses have been blown up by the Azeris. Judith Cummins (in the Chair): I do not intend to Israel does not come out of this well either. It is impose time limits, but I ask Members to bear in mind trading high-tech weapons, which have made the strategic that I would like to start Front-Bench speeches at eight difference in the war, for energy. It relies on Azerbaijan minutes past. for about half its oil. It supports an Azeri President who embraces militiamen who behead prisoners, mutilate 4.51 pm bodies, destroy churches and engage in anti-Christian campaigns. As the US writer Michael Rubin put it, Feryal Clark (Enfield North) (Lab): I shall be brief, “Armenia is a democracy, while Azerbaijan has become a Mrs Cummins. It is a pleasure to serve under your family-run dictatorship. Armenia embraces religious freedom chairmanship. I am grateful to the hon. Member for while Azerbaijan works with Islamist extremists.” East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) for securing 379WH Nagorno-Karabakh 8 DECEMBER 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh 380WH the debate, which is an important opportunity for us to the atrocities listed should be charged with delivering a raise the dire situation faced by the people of Nagorno- lasting and equitable peace is unconscionable. The UK Karabakh. It is a pleasure to follow him in the debate. Government and the international community must I take a keen interest in the conflict for many reasons, act, so I ask the following questions today. but in particular as the vice-chair of the all-party Will the UK Government condemn Azerbaijan for parliamentary group on Armenia, a member of the using cluster bombs on civilians? Amnesty International NATO Parliamentary Assembly, and someone who grew has reported that there is growing evidence that Azerbaijan up hearing the horrific stories of the genocide of Armenian used cluster bombs in Nagorno-Karabakh. In particular, people in Turkey.As the hon. Gentleman set out, Nagorno- the capital, Stepanakert, was attacked with cluster bombs, Karabakh is an autonomous region of Azerbaijan with resulting in an unknown number of civilian deaths. The an Armenian majority population. Since 1994 it has use of cluster bombs violates the ban on indiscriminate been controlled by Armenians as a self-proclaimed attacks and violates international law, as we know. Are independent state, although neither country recognises the UK Government aware of the above reports that that statehood as yet. On 27 September this year, after Azerbaijan used cluster bombs in Nagorno-Karabakh? some alarming escalations during the summer, the worst Do the Government consider such violations of violence in the region since 1994 erupted. By 13 October international humanitarian law to be unacceptable? If around 1,000 people had been killed, as Azerbaijani so, will the Minister condemn those breaches? forces advanced past the line of conflict established as Will the Government use their influence to put pressure part of the 1994 ceasefire. on Turkey, a NATO member, to remove the mercenaries The conflict has caused a humanitarian crisis in from the region and stop its effort to relocate mercenary Nagorno-Karabakh. There are reports and evidence of families from Syria? Will the UK support the Minsk numerous violations of international law by Azerbaijan, Group re-engaging for a final settlement for the status including the use of banned cluster bombs, the murder of Nagorno-Karabakh? of elderly and disabled civilians, and the torture and It is reported that British-manufactured parts were humiliation of captured Armenians.Perhaps most shocking used to build Turkey’sBayraktar unmanned aerial vehicles of all, Turkey, a member of NATO—an organisation —drones—that were used extensively by Azerbaijan founded to ensure a lasting peace in Europe based on during the war. How do the Government trace the common values of individual liberty, democracy and unsolicited sale of British military IP by Turkey to third human rights and the rule of law—has been providing countries? military support to Azerbaijan. Turkey has recruited The failure by successive Governments, including my and transported jihadi mercenaries to bolster Azerbaijan party in government, to recognise the Armenian genocide, forces who are using Turkish weapons and war planes—in despite all the evidence, has led to yet another such particular, drones. experience for Armenians in the region, who are once The military attack on the people of Nagorno-Karabakh more being removed from their ancestral land. Will this has been accompanied by a campaign of hate speech Government follow most countries in the world and our towards Armenian people in Azerbaijan and in Turkey. allies and finally recognise the Armenian genocide? Garo Paylan, one of the very few Armenian Members of the Turkish Parliament—if not the only one—has 4.58 pm said: Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): I commend my hon. “Armenian-origin citizens have become scapegoats and the object Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham of rising racism and hate speech”, (Tim Loughton) on his excellent speech, with which I adding: fully agree. I grieve for the suffering, particularly of “The current climate reminds me of previous anti-Armenian civilians, in any conflict, but because time today limits me, pogroms.” I want, in speaking of the conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh, to highlight only two points. These have been highlighted Paylan commented that Turkey’s Armenian community, to me today by Baroness Cox. They are in her report, and citizens of Armenia who live in Turkey, no longer “Grief and Courage in Nagorno Karabakh”. I hope that feel safe. my hon. Friend the Minister will read the full report, Any conflict that leads to loss of life is a tragedy, but because there is much more in it, but Baroness Cox a conflict in which civilians are deliberately targeted, particularly wants me to highlight these two points. international law is ignored and the involvement of a The first is the urgent need to secure the return of NATO member, abandoning all pretences of neutrality, Armenians still held as prisoners of war after the ceasefire is making things worse rather than better is a conflict of and to ensure that ongoing atrocities against them do which the west should sit up and take notice. To be fair, not continue. The second is the need to ensure that we must acknowledge that the US, France and other Azerbaijanis are held to account for the atrocities committed EU countries have raised concerns about the transportation both during and after the conflict. I therefore ask the of mercenaries, but the UK, unfortunately, has been Minister these questions. What action are our Government conspicuous only by its silence. The broad lack of interest taking, both by themselves and with international partners, from the west has resulted in Armenia being forced to to prevent the further abuse of Armenians held captive, agree a peace deal devised by Russia and Turkey and—I to secure their release and to bring to justice those kid you not—potentially with Turkish troops being responsible for war crimes during this conflict? What deployed to Nagorno-Karabakh to keep the peace. assurance can the Minister give us that investigations The scale and horror of this conflict cannot be laid into alleged war crimes, particularly those classed as out in the few minutes that I have today, but the urgency genocide by Genocide Watch, as we have heard, will be of the need for action is only matched by the moral carried out by a properly constituted, neutral and recognised imperative that sits behind it. That those responsible for international body? 381WH Nagorno-Karabakh 8 DECEMBER 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh 382WH

[Fiona Bruce] more land or for a ransom to be paid for each soldier. Red Cross negotiations and efforts have failed to set these men free. Will the It is heart-rending to hear in Baroness Cox’s report of British Parliament voice the immediate need to release these men multiple accounts of brutality inflicted on military and from these dire, inhumane conditions?” civilian prisoners of war, despite the ceasefire, and equally In the same email, the writer grieves at the continual heart-rending to hear in the report from the Nagorno- violation of the ceasefire against Karabakh human rights ombudsman, who states that “servicemen, women and civilians who face annihilation where there is evidence of their lives, homes, churches, heritage and their culture are being destroyed in front of the entire world.” “the deliberate targeting of civilians, ambulances, hospitals, religious sites, electricity, gas and water infrastructure and the use of The writer comments that not only is aggression not chemical incendiaries”. part of Armenia’s Christian way of life but Armenia The information has been sent, but does not have the practical means or resources to be an “we have received no adequate replies from major aid aggressor. They say that the military invasion of Nagorno- organisations…We are totally isolated.” Karabakh should be yet another wake-up call to Christians What information can the Minister give us about what around the world following the demise of Christian aid from the UK has reached those in need of help in populations in other parts of the middle east. the area and how is it being applied? The writer also expresses concerns that not only is Baroness Cox’s report states: Azerbaijan actively removing the Christian population; it is also going about the potential rewriting of the “The scale and ferocity of these offensives has intensified the justifiable fear among local people—who are 94% Armenian region’s history, citing the example of the 9th-to-10th Christians—of the possibility of ethnic cleansing from their century Armenian monastery at Dadivank, which is historic land, with grave implications for the region.” today being presented by Azeri officials as an ancient She goes on to say: Albanian site. Finally, the writer also comments that in “we remain deeply concerned by the lack of international engagement order to protect human lives the Armenian people with, and balanced reporting of, the suffering of civilians in ought to have the right to self-determination on lands Nagorno Karabakh.” that they have called home for nearly two millennia. While the report cites the history of oppression of Armenian Christians over the past century, it also states 5.4 pm that attempts by some Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate my “to present the latest escalation of violence as an Armenian good friend, the hon. Member for East Worthing and aggression—or to suggest” Shoreham (Tim Loughton), on setting the scene so well. that Armenia is equally culpable He and I share many concerns. It is also a pleasure to “for the violence and civilian destruction that has taken place—are follow another good friend, the hon. Member for Congleton manifestly untrue and dangerous. It would be entirely against the (Fiona Bruce). interests of Armenia to initiate the recent war.” Behind everything, two superpowers, Russia and Turkey, I quoted that because yesterday evening I had the are both playing for their own advantage and using the privilege of speaking with a member of a family from Armenians as the meat in the sandwich, so to speak. Armenia. That person now lives in the west, but has Something that sticks in my head is from the report of family still there. That individual echoes the concerns of Baroness Cox—also vice-chair of the all-party Baroness Cox in such a way that, time permitting, I parliamentary group for international freedom of religion want to cite in some detail from an email I asked that or belief—who recently visited Nagorno-Karabakh. Her person to send to me and received this morning. They words are telling. call for the One family whose son was captured by Azeri forces “urgent release of Prisoners of War and the freedom for the said that his phone was stolen by his captors, who Armenian soldiers who are in hiding to return home.” posted an image of his beheaded body on his own social The message states: media account for his family and friends to see—brutality, “The majority of soldiers who fought at the frontlines were criminality and absolutely detestable action. newly drafted 18-year-old boys, only 2-3 months experiences in Similar concerns were expressed by the Armenian the military. They were only equipped with 20th century weapons to fight a 21st century military. The reality in Artsakh is that the human rights ombudsman, Arman Tatoyan, who told 150,000 Christian population was in no way prepared to face a Baroness Cox: 21st century invasion—it was an uneven battle. Armenia’s military “We have video evidence of torture and mutilations...Azerbaijan was weak and unprepared for drones, mercenaries, F-16s and have returned 29 military bodies and few civilians—DNA was military intelligence backing Turkey and Azerbaijan military needed to identify four bodies. But it refuses to provide the list of forces. Around 5000 Armenian military men were deployed to the current prisoners…and continues to withhold information and frontline, majority of them 18-year-olds who had just enlisted in access to prisoners from the Red Cross.” the summer.” Turkey, which is behind Azerbaijan, has totally ignored Indeed, the writer’s 18-year-old cousin, now injured and what is acceptable in the rest of the free world. I do not missing, was one of them. The email continues, saying know if anyone in this place could read such information that the young men are and remain untouched; that would be impossible. I “in desperate need to return home. We believe they are alive either certainly wish to see what more can be done—not as prisoners of war facing daily humiliation and torture, or they simply to ensure that the ceasefire remains in place, but have been in hiding in desperate and immediate need of medical to see a return of soldiers home to their loved ones. attention. There are hundreds of young men and women in hiding who are unable to obtain food, security, care for their In the short time that I have, I also wish to express wounds, and basic human needs. Azerbaijan officials have placed great concern about the attacks on civilians, on innocents a price on their lives. Their new demands since the ceasefire and on churches—the dispersal of the Christian community, agreement have been to either exchange Armenian soldiers for ethnic cleansing and despicable criminality.Those involved 383WH Nagorno-Karabakh 8 DECEMBER 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh 384WH in murders and the extreme violence should be accountable I would be grateful if the Minister reassured us that for their war crimes. The exact numbers are unknown. those evolving threats will be very much a part of the Armenian officials in Yerevan told Human Rights Watch ongoing integrated foreign and defence review. I hope that Azerbaijan holds dozens of Armenian prisoners of that the UK Government, in that review, will take good war. Armenia is known to hold a number of Azerbaijani note of the SNP submission that we need to work, POWs and at least three foreign mercenaries. globally, towards closing the loophole and grey legal I read carefully the response of the Minister for area in which lethal autonomous weapons operate because European Neighbourhood to the ANC. Clearly, there is the issue is of global significance. more to do than to applaud a ceasefire—the ceasefire The conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh has cooled for was despicable. Will the Government, in recognition of now—that is to be welcomed—but there could be plenty our obligations under the Geneva convention, uphold of others; this will be an ongoing global issue, particularly everybody’s values and demand that Azerbaijan ensures because those weapons are so easily deployable, worldwide, the safe return of all prisoners of war? Furthermore, to various places. The UK could do much to close that will they commit to set up a commission or working legal grey area, and I would be glad of an assurance from group to support local efforts accurately to determine the Minister that we will work towards that. She can the number of captives and monitor their return? rest assured of the SNP’s support in that project—I will I think I have spoken more quickly today than I have soon lodge a 10-minute rule Bill to help that discussion— ever spoken. There is more to be said, but not enough because we believe that it will calm tensions in Nagorno- time to do it. I appeal for POWs to be returned to both Karabakh as well as elsewhere. There is much to be nations, but it is clear that the horrors faced by too done, and I look forward to the Minister’s response. many families have not ceased with the ceasefire. We must intervene where we can and use any and all 5.11 pm diplomatic pressures at our disposal. I am sure that you, Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Green) (Lab): It Mrs Cummins, would join the rest of us in beseeching is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, the Minister for action, and for support for this war-ravaged Mrs Cummins. It was great to hear the very strong nation—in particular for the Armenians, who have been introductory speech from the chair of the all-party despicably and unbelievably treated. parliamentary group on Armenia, the hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton), and 5.8 pm that of the vice-chair, my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North (Feryal Clark). I look forward to the Alyn Smith (Stirling) (SNP): It is a pleasure to serve Minister’s response to my hon. Friend’s remarks about under your chairmanship, Mrs Cummins. I, too, the banned cluster bombs and the potential violations congratulate the hon. Member for East Worthing and of international humanitarian law. Shoreham (Tim Loughton) and I commend him on an As we have all heard, the conflict has had all the excellent and balanced speech. It is a great pleasure to hallmarks of a truly dreadful modern international follow so many thoughtful and passionate contributions conflict: the use of heavy weapons in civilian areas, the from all parts of the Chamber this evening. involvement of third-party competence and regional The dreadful upsurge in the conflict in Nagorno- powers,the impotence of several international organisations Karabakh has seen 2,700 deaths that we know of and, to facilitate peace at the beginning, an unfolding and as we have heard, there is concern that it could be worse, tragic toll on the civilian population, the destruction of so we should be glad of the ceasefire. It is very much to homes and infrastructure, and, as the hon. Member for be welcomed, but our concern is very much that it is Congleton (Fiona Bruce) said, the destruction of places good news for now. In particular as we see the refugees of worship. Despite all that, the humanitarian catastrophe return to their homes, we could see tensions escalate in Nagorno-Karabakh, and the wide-ranging regional again. geopolitical consequences, have really not had the attention Armenia handing over the disputed regions of Kalbajar, that they deserve from the global community. Lachin and Aghdam has impacted upon upwards of Dr Huq: British people with dual nationality have 90,000 refugees. Many thousands of people are affected, been caught up in a situation where people have been and a huge effort remains to be done in clearing the displaced or lost their homes—it is freezing cold at the munitions to make the area safe going forward. We moment—and, as my hon. Friend pointed out, illegal therefore believe that there is a need for international weapons are being used against people in the form of observers of the process—not just from one country, cluster bombs. Does my hon. Friend share my concern not least when it is not impartial itself. We need the that there has been no full British ambassador in a international community to remain engaged in peace- couple of years, since the last one left, and that that just building within the region. I would be grateful for an adds to the impression that the conflict is deprioritised assurance from the Minister this evening that the UK for this Government? will play its role within that coalition and take a greater role than, frankly, we have seen hitherto. Catherine West: My hon. Friend makes an excellent We can learn some conflict lessons from the situation point. She has been a real champion, together with our in Nagorno-Karabakh. Azerbaijan, in global terms, does hon. Friend the Member for Ealing North (James Murray), not have a huge defence budget: 2 billion US dollars in making the case not just for the diaspora here in the is a considerable sum of cash but, globally, is not huge. UK, who are really suffering, but for what is happening Yet by buying in advanced weaponry from other places, on the ground. in particular armed drones and GPS-guided ballistic I have only three questions for the Minister, because I missiles, it was able to turn the balance. That is indicative know that we are keen to hear her reply. Will she tell us of the threats that we face here and will face in future. what is happening with respect to the International 385WH Nagorno-Karabakh 8 DECEMBER 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh 386WH

[Catherine West] have illustrated, it is a very sensitive and complex issue. I assure my hon. Friend that I am conscious of the Committee of the Red Cross and the Red Crescent, strength of feeling in the House. which, earlier this week, were unable to access all the The Government welcome the cessation of fighting detained combatants, and have struggled to begin the between Armenia and Azerbaijan. Since the fighting tragic process of returning the deceased to their families? broke out, we have been pressing both sides on the need What role are the UK Government playing in that to end the fighting, to secure a humanitarian ceasefire effort? Will the Minister address that immediate and and to ensure a lasting peace settlement. I have made pressing concern? In addition, the impact of covid-19 those points directly to the Foreign Ministers of both brings an extra difficult dimension to the conflict, adding countries. The impact of recent fighting on innocent further pressure on the health authorities in both countries civilians has been absolutely devastating and it had to in coping with the injured and the displaced. stop. We acknowledge that both sides had to make My second question is on the role of Turkey, which difficult decisions to reach the peace settlement. many hon. Members have mentioned, including the The Government will continue to support both SNP spokesperson, the hon. Member for Stirling Governments and the co-chairs of the OSCE Minsk (Alyn Smith), who was eloquent in his questioning of group—France, Russia and the United States—to ensure Turkey’s UK armaments. Has the Minister—as I have a sustainable and fully negotiated settlement to the as shadow Minister, together with the hon. Member for conflict. Only that will ensure stability, security and Caerphilly (Wayne David), who is shadow Minister for peace for the people of that region. It is important that the Middle East—confronted the Turkish ambassador all further agreements and decisions are made under about the situation and the potential use of Syrian and the auspices of the OSCE Minsk group and with the Iraqi fighters? Turkey is an ally of the UK and is part of involvement of the co-chairs: France, Russia and the NATO; we should be able to have those frank conversations United States. and hold our friends to account. Despite not being a member of the OSCE Minsk Finally, will the Minister tell us what she is doing group, the UK was diplomatically active throughout with respect to Russia’s role and in bringing in the the conflict. I spoke three times to the Azerbaijani international community? This is not just about leaving Foreign Minister Bayramov and the Armenian Foreign it to Russia, which of course traditionally has the Minister Mnatsakanyan during the conflict. I also spoke military pact. What effort is being made to breathe to the new Armenian Foreign Minister Ayvazyan at the some life into the Minsk format and reinvigorate it so end of November. I delivered strong messages of that the UK can play its role—for example, by tabling a de-escalation and urged a return to the negotiating table proposal for a new resolution at the UN Security Council? under the auspices of the OSCE Minsk group. Of course, all hon. Members want the conflict to stop and the peace process to be successful. We should all get The conflict came at an extraordinarily difficult time behind the peace process, not just leave it to Russia’s for both countries as they tackled the covid-19 pandemic. protection of the Lachin corridor. As hon. Members have pointed out, the approach of winter has further exacerbated the humanitarian situation. Jim Shannon: Does the hon. Lady think that NATO The internally displaced persons from both sides have has a key role to play? NATO members should adhere required significant support, which will need to continue to rules and regulations. If members do not adhere to as the weather deteriorates. In late October, the Foreign them, as in the case of Turkey, is it not time for their Secretary announced £1 million in funding to the position in NATO to be reconsidered? International Committee of the Red Cross to support its efforts. The Government continue to consider what Catherine West: As all hon. Members are aware, further support we might provide, including in the key Turkey does an enormous amount for refugees. It has areas of de-mining, reconstruction and reconciliation. been a welcoming force for Syrians in the last five years We are aware of the challenges in getting access and we of terrible conflict. There are many things on which we are pushing that point. I am happy to come back on can work together and be friends. In this regard, however, that but we are aware of it. The UK Government the use of that kind of weaponry and the bringing in of welcomed the news of the ceasefire. The security and other mercenaries from the middle east was just a safety of civilians is paramount. cocktail for aggression and conflict. That is why I felt that I as a shadow Minister had to go, along with the Dr Huq: I am grateful to the Minister for meeting me other shadow Minister my hon. Friend the Member for and the shadow Minister recently.Does she have anything Caerphilly, to make those representations. I am sure we to say about consular assistance to our citizens? France, will hear that the Minister has done that as well. the US and Russia are involved in the Minsk process, but there is an impression that this country is dragging 5.16 pm its feet. Could the Minister step up our efforts? The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs (Wendy Morton): Wendy Morton: I assure the hon. Lady that we absolutely In the time available, I will endeavour to answer as support the efforts and the work of the OSCE Minsk many questions as I can. If I am unable to cover the odd group. If there are specific consular cases, I will probably point, I will come back to my hon. Friend the Member need to come back to the hon. Lady, if I may. for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton). I Turning back to the ceasefire and the importance of am grateful to him for securing this debate on an the safety and security of civilians, during my recent incredibly important topic. I pay tribute to him for his visit to Moscow I met Deputy Foreign Minister Titov work as chair of the all-party parliamentary group on and noted the role of Russia in the negotiations. I Armenia. As hon. Members on both sides of the House welcomed its efforts to deliver the ceasefire. There are 387WH Nagorno-Karabakh 8 DECEMBER 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh 388WH many details that still need to be clarified. It is essential I know that many right hon. and hon. Members will that any further developments and agreements are made have seen the videos that purport to show war crimes by Armenia and Azerbaijan and are in their best interests. committed by both Armenian and Azerbaijani troops. I However, this initial agreement paves the way for future want to be clear that this Government’s position on war discussions through the OSCE Minsk group. We note crimes has not changed: where we have irrefutable that the agreement does not mention the future of the evidence that war crimes have been committed, we will Nagorno-Karabakh region, and consider that to be a call them out and take appropriate action. In this case, matter for the OSCE Minsk group co-chairs to facilitate the evidence is not irrefutable and we know that some of discussions, in the light of the Madrid basic principles. these videos are several years old or doctored. Nevertheless, During the hostilities, I also held discussions with the I have raised concerns with both Azerbaijani Foreign Turkish Deputy Foreign Minister Önal. I urged Turkey, Minister Bayramov,who committed to a full investigation, as a member of the OSCE Minsk group, to support and the former Armenian Foreign Minister Mnatsakanyan. fully efforts to secure a ceasefire and return to negotiations. Since the cessation of hostilities, I have spoken again to Catherine West: Will the Minister give way? Deputy Foreign Minister Önal, welcoming the news of the ceasefire and urging full engagement with the OSCE Wendy Morton: I will try to finish these points, given Minsk group, as the primary format through which a that I am almost running out of time. Members have peaceful and lasting settlement should be negotiated. raised points that I want to cover, including about the UN Security Council and the direct question whether Catherine West: Will the Minister give way? the UK had vetoed a UNSC product, to which the answer is no. Although the UN Security Council was Wendy Morton: I will try to make progress because I united in seeking an end to the conflict, it was unfortunately am conscious that I do not have a huge amount of time unable to agree the text of a statement. and there are a lot of questions that I want to try to answer. My right hon. Friends the Foreign Secretary The issue of prisoners of war has also been raised. I and the Prime Minister also spoke to their Turkish spoke to the Armenian and Azeri Foreign Ministers counterparts during the hostilities and delivered similar following the ceasefire agreement, and highlighted the messages. importance of returning prisoners of war.I also highlighted the International Committee of the Red Cross as the Colleagues have asked about the role of foreign fighters primary mediator through which prisoner exchanges during the conflict. I assure them that the Government should take place, but we continue to monitor that remain deeply concerned by reports that foreign fighters situation very closely. were deployed. However, we have seen no conclusive evidence on that matter. We are aware that Turkey gave The issue of cluster munitions was raised. We are strong diplomatic support to Azerbaijan. Turkey and deeply concerned by reports that both sides used cluster Azerbaijan have long-standing strong relations and describe munitions during the conflict. The reports by Amnesty themselves as one nation with two states. President International and Human Rights Watch, which seek to Aliyev himself has referred to the use of Turkish-made verify the deployment of these munitions by both drones by the Azerbaijani army, yet we have seen no Governments, are incredibly concerning. evidence of direct Turkish involvement in the conflict. I will draw this debate to a conclusion. While the We will continue to raise any concerns we have on the Government welcome the recent peace deal, I assure matter directly with the Government of Turkey. right hon. and hon. Members that we remain deeply concerned by the humanitarian situation in Armenia 5.23 pm and Azerbaijan. We remain committed to utilising the Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. diplomatic and humanitarian tools at our disposal to see lasting peace and recovery in the region. Since the 5.36 pm cessation of hostilities, I have continued to engage with On resuming— our partners. The UK and the international community have repeatedly welcomed the cessation of hostilities Wendy Morton: I will endeavour to resume where I and stressed the importance that all further discussions left off. We were discussing the engagement with and are held under the auspices of the chairs of the OSCE involvement of Turkey. I was just going on to say that Minsk group. The UK will continue to raise with the my right hon. Friends the Foreign Secretary and the relevant parties any concerns we have over the protection Prime Minister also spoke to their Turkish counterparts of cultural heritage, the role of external factors and the during the hostilities and delivered similar messages to humanitarian situation. mine. Members have also raised the issue of alleged desecration 5.41 pm of cultural heritage. I am conscious that they have raised that issue with me previously, and I also know Tim Loughton: In the interest of us all not freezing that many Members of the other place attach significant and being able to get to the next Division in the House, importance to it. The Government have been clear to all I simply thank everybody for taking part in this debate. parties that the desecration and destruction of cultural Question put and agreed to. heritage sites is appalling and wholly unacceptable. Resolved, When I spoke to Azerbaijani Foreign Minister Bayramov That this House has considered the conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh. and Armenian Foreign Minister Ayvazyan in November, I expressed deep concern over these reports. Our embassies in Baku and Yerevan have continued to engage on this 5.41 pm matter, and we fully support the efforts of UNESCO. Sitting adjourned.

25WS Written Statements 8 DECEMBER 2020 Written Statements 26WS Written Statements ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS

Avian Influenza: Housing Measures for Kept Birds Tuesday 8 December 2020 The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Victoria Prentis): TREASURY Further to my statement of 12 November, high pathogenicity avian influenza continues to circulate in Taxation (Post-transition) Bill the UK and Europe. There are now eight confirmed cases in England in kept birds and a large number of findings in wild birds across 19 counties. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Jesse Norman): Public Health England advises that the risk to public The Government have today tabled resolutions for the health is very low and the Food Standards Agency has Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill as part of their said there is no food safety risk for UK consumers. preparations for the end of the transition period. Given the high risk of incursion to captive birds we The Bill will take forward changes to the tax system are adding a housing measure to the avian influenza to support the smooth continuation of business across prevention zone (AIPZ). This will take effect from the UK. It will ensure legislation required for the purposes 14 December. It will require all keepers to house their of VAT and customs and excise duties to support the birds or otherwise keep them separate from wild birds. practical implementation of the Northern Ireland protocol Keepers have until 14 December to ready their birds for is in place by the end of the transition period. It will housing. also implement further changes to the tax system which The addition of the housing measure has been are required ahead of the end of the transition period, co-ordinated with the devolved Administrations and including the introduction of a new system for collecting Scottish and Welsh Governments are introducing a VAT on cross-border goods. similar measure.In practical terms,this means the additional The Government will introduce Finance Bill legislation requirement to house birds applies to the whole of in the spring, following the next Budget in the usual way. Great Britain. In Northern Ireland, as in GB, there is an [HCWS628] avian influenza prevention zone in place and the case for further measures on housing is kept under review. There are rules covering the free range sector in these circumstances. Eggs may continue to be marketed as DEFENCE free range providing the birds are not housed continuously for more than 16 weeks. There are similar rules for Unacceptable Behaviours Progress Review poultry meat for 12 weeks. Eggs or poultry can continue to be marketed as organic regardless of this additional housing requirement. The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Ben Wallace): The key to protecting the sector and reducing the risk Today the Ministry of Defence is publishing the of further increase in cases is for all keepers to adopt the Unacceptable Behaviours Progress Review and its response, highest possible standard of biosecurity. a copy of which has been placed in the Library of the We continue to urge bird keepers to be vigilant for House. any signs of disease, ensure they maintain their biosecurity, The Progress review was conducted by Danuta Gray, seek prompt advice from their vet and report suspect Non-Executive Member of the Defence Board and disease to the animal and plant health agency (APHA), Chair of the People Committee. The review assessed as they must do by law. progress made by implementing the Wigston review’s We strongly advise keepers to register on the poultry 36 recommendations in the single services, UK Strategic register so as to receive notifications and disease alerts. Command and Head Office. This is mandatory for all those with flocks of over The review found that good progress was made over 50 birds. Registration is easy and can be found at: the past year. To further accelerate progress, it made an https://www.gov.uk/guidance/bird-gatherings-licences additional 13 recommendations, many of which build Officials examine the evidence about the risk on a upon Wigston recommendations. I welcome the report daily basis and review their risk assessment at least once and accept the recommendations in full. We will be a month. The need to keep the housing requirement in considering how to best take the recommendations place will therefore be continually under review. forward. Weremain committed to preventing and reducing [HCWS631] instances of unacceptable behaviour and supporting our people when instances do occur. While there is clearly work still to do, over the past HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE year we have issued new policy guidance on unacceptable behaviours, introduced a new whole-force bullying Covid-19 Vaccine Roll-out: Contingent Liability harassment and discrimination helpline, introduced active bystander training and ensured our personnel have access to professional mediation services. We are also The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, making reforms to the service complaints system and Energy and Industrial Strategy (Nadhim Zahawi): I am will be rolling out the first changes in the new year. tabling this statement for the benefit of honourable and [HCWS629] right honourable Members to bring to their attention 27WS Written Statements 8 DECEMBER 2020 Written Statements 28WS the contingent liabilities relating to the contract signed differ, but we are aware that many other nation states between HMG and Pfizer/BioNTech for their covid-19 are offering indemnities as part of their contractual vaccine. arrangements, or other means e.g., the US PREP Act, On 2 December,the Medicines and Healthcare Products which provides immunity from liability to vaccine Regulatory Authority (MHRA) gave its authorisation developers. for use of the covid-19 vaccine being manufactured by Even though the covid-19 vaccines have been developed Pfizer/BioNTech. With deployment of this vaccine at pace, at no point and at no stage of development has beginning this week, I am now updating the House on safety been bypassed. The independent MHRA’s approval the liabilities HMG has taken on in relation to this for use of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine clearly demonstrates vaccine via this statement and departmental minute laid that this vaccine has satisfied, in full, all the necessary today. requirements for safety, effectiveness, and quality. We The agreement to provide an indemnity as part of the are providing indemnities in the very unexpected event contract between HMT and Pfizer/BioNTech creates a of any adverse reactions that could not have been contingent liability on the covid-19 vaccination programme, foreseen through the robust checks and procedures that and I have laid a departmental minute today containing have been put in place. a description of the liability undertaken. Developing a vaccination against covid-19 has been It has been and is the Government’s strategy to an extraordinary feat which has been delivered at great manage covid-19 until an effective vaccine/vaccines can pace. Given the pace of vaccine development and our be deployed at scale. Willingness to accept appropriate ambition to deploy the vaccine as soon as it has been indemnities has helped to secure access to vaccines with authorised, it has not been possible to provide you with the expected benefits to public health and the economy normal 14 sitting days to consider this issue of contingent alike much sooner than may have been the case otherwise. liabilities. Given the exceptional circumstances we are in, and I will update the House in a similar manner as and the terms on which developers are willing to supply a when other covid-19 vaccines are deployed. covid-19 vaccine, we have taken a broader approach to [HCWS630] indemnification than we usually would. Global approaches 7P Petitions 8 DECEMBER 2020 Petitions 8P

As the hon. Members may know, the major high Petitions street banks signed up to the Access to Banking Standard in May 2017, which commits them to ensure customers Tuesday 8 December 2020 are well informed about branch closures, the bank’s reasons for closure and options for continued access to banking services. Alternative options for access might OBSERVATIONS include the Post Office which allows 95% of business and 99% of personal banking customers to deposit cheques, check their balance and withdraw and deposit TREASURY cash at 11,500 Post Office branches in the UK. In September 2020, the financial conduct authority Closure of Partick branch of TSB bank in Glasgow (FCA) published guidance setting out its expectation of The petition of residents of Glasgow North, firms when they are deciding to reduce the number of Declares that proposed closure of the Partick branch physical branches or the number of free-to-use ATMs. of the TSB bank in Glasgow will have a detrimental Firms are expected to carefully consider the impact of a effect on local communities and the local economy. planned closure on their customers’ everyday banking and cash access needs, and other relevant branch services The petitioners therefore request that the House of and consider possible alternative access arrangements. Commons urges her Majesty’s Treasury, the Department This will ensure the implementation of closure decisions for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy and TSB is done in a way that treats customers fairly.The guidance Bank to take in account the concerns of petitioners and can be found at https://www.fca.org.uk/publication/ take whatever steps they can to halt the planned closure finalised-guidance/fg20-03.pdf of this branch. Should constituents decide to switch banks, they can And the petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Patrick do so through the current account switch service (CASS). Grady, Official Report, 20 October 2020; Vol. 682, c.1033.] The switch service is free to use, comes with a guarantee [P002612] to protect customers from financial loss if something A petitions in the same terms was presented by the goes wrong, and redirects any payments mistakenly sent hon. Member for Glasgow North West (Carol Monaghan) to the old account, providing further assurance for [P002613] customers. This means that customers are more able Observations from The Economic Secretary to the than ever to hold their banks to account by voting Treasury (John Glen): with their feet, and that banks are incentivised to work hard to retain their existing customers and attract new The Government thank the hon. Members for Glasgow ones. More information about CASS is available at: North (Patrick Grady) and for Glasgow North West www.currentaccountswitch.co.uk (Carol Monaghan) who have recently submitted petitions The Government cannot intervene in firms’commercial opposing a bank branch closure on behalf of their strategies in response to changes in the market. The constituents. Government understand that access to physical banking The Government are sorry to hear of constituents’ continues to be important to many communities and disappointment at the planned closure of the TSB will continue to work with industry, the Post Office and branch in Partick. the FCA to ensure everyone can access essential banking The way consumers interact with their banking is services. changing. Two-thirds of UK adults have used contactless payments, 72% have used online banking and 48% have WORK AND PENSIONS used mobile banking, according to UK Finance. The Government cannot reverse the changes in the market Universal Credit uplift and in customer behaviour; nor can they determine The petition of the residents of the constituency of Kilmarnock firms’ commercial strategies in response to those changes. and Loudoun, Having the flexibility to respond to changes in the Declares that the economic consequences of the market is what makes the UK’s financial services sector Coronavirus pandemic has led to many more people one of the most competitive and productive in the facing increased levels of poverty and financial hardship; world, and the Government want to protect that. further declares that the Government provided welcome As with other banking service providers, TSB will support at the beginning of the pandemic when it need to balance customer interests, market competition, topped up universal credit payments by £20 per week; and other commercial factors when considering its strategy. further declares that it is regretful that the Government Although I can understand constituents’ dissatisfaction, has decided not to make permanent this increase to decisions on opening and closing branches are taken by Universal Credit payments. the management team of each bank on a commercial The petitioners therefore request that the House of basis. The petition requests that the Government take Commons urge the Government to immediately bring steps to halt the planned closure of this branch, however, forward additional measures to permanently increase the Government hope that the hon. Members can appreciate universal credit in response to the long-term impact of that it would be inappropriate for the Government to covid-19. intervene in these decisions. However, the Government also firmly believe that And the petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Alan the impact of branch closures should be understood, Brown, Official Report, 20 October 2020; Vol. 682, c. 1034.] considered, and mitigated where possible so that all [P002614] customers, wherever they live, continue to have access A petition in the same terms was presented by the to over the counter banking services. hon. Member for Glasgow East (David Linden) [P002607] 9P Petitions 8 DECEMBER 2020 Petitions 10P

Observations from The Parliamentary Under-Secretary latest economic position and health situation in the new of State for Work and Pensions (Will Quince): year before making any decisions. Parliament will be The amount of universal credit paid to claimants updated accordingly on any future decisions on benefit reflects, as closely as possible, the actual circumstances spending. of a household, which can rise and fall every month. It is important to add that beyond the rate of standard The single, simple, taper means that payments reduce in allowance, the Government are committed to helping a transparent and predictable way as earnings increase. people through other means. We have already introduced Included in each award is a basic standard allowance a £400 million package to help families stay warm and that all claimants are automatically entitled to, with well-fed this winter and beyond, which included a boost additional amounts added where appropriate.The standard to our successful holiday activities fund throughout allowance is to help meet basic living costs. There are next year. The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions separate rates for single people and couples and lower has also completed her annual review of benefit rates rates for young people. Depending on individual and meaning for 2021-22, expenditure on social security circumstances additional amounts can be added for benefit and pension rates will increase by £2.7 billion housing, children, disability, and childcare costs. due to uprating. This includes an additional £0.5 billion on working-age benefits. The Government are wholly committed to supporting Eligible claimants who are migrating across to universal people on lower incomes and have paid out more than credit from income support, income-related employment £100 billion in welfare support this year. This includes and support allowance and income-based jobseeker’s the £20 weekly increase to the universal credit standard allowance can also receive an additional two-week run-on allowance rates, announced by the Chancellor of the of this benefit support. New claimants to universal credit Exchequer in March, as a temporary measure for the are able to apply for a new claim advance in their first 2020-21 tax year for those facing the most financial month if they need some financial support until the first disruption as a result of the pandemic. This applied to regular payment of universal credit is made. For claimants all new and existing universal credit claimants, equating who are already receiving universal credit, advances to an additional amount of universal credit of up to may be available for those who experience a change of £1,040 for the year. circumstance which results in a significant increase in The £20 per week increase remains in place until entitlement or a budgeting advance to purchase one-off April 2021. As we have done throughout this crisis, we emergency items for obtaining/retaining employment. will continue to assess how best to support low-income A range of services are also available to help support families, and the Government will need to consider the claimants to manage their budget successfully. 7MC Ministerial Corrections8 DECEMBER 2020 Ministerial Corrections 8MC

increasing during the autumn term. We estimate that, Ministerial Correction last week, 826,000 children attended an early years setting. Tuesday 8 December 2020 [Official Report, 3 December 2020, Vol. 685, c. 256WH.] Letter from the Under-Secretary of State for Education, EDUCATION the hon. Member for Chelmsford (Vicky Ford): An error has been identified in my speech. Nurseries and Early Years Settings The correct response should have been: The following is an extract from a Westminster Hall debate on Nurseries and Early Years Settings on Thursday 3 December 2020. Vicky Ford: Currently, at least 80% of early years settings are open, and attendance has been consistently Vicky Ford: Currently, at least 80% of early years increasing during the autumn term. We estimate that, settings are open, and attendance has been consistently last week, 806,000 children attended an early years setting.

ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 8 December 2020

Col. No. Col. No. JUSTICE...... 693 JUSTICE—continued Child Trust Funds: Children with Learning Government and Parliament: Relationship with Disabilities ...... 701 Courts...... 694 Community Sentence Treatment Requirements...... 706 Homophobia in Football ...... 698 Court Cases: Backlog...... 696 Prison Capacity ...... 693 Covid-19 in Prisons...... 699 Sentencing Regime for 17-year-olds ...... 705 Desecration of Corpses: Criminalisation ...... 703 Topical Questions ...... 706 Drug Use in Prisons...... 704 Youth Justice: Racial Disparity ...... 699 Female Offender Strategy...... 702 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Tuesday 8 December 2020

Col. No. Col. No. DEFENCE...... 25WS HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE...... 26WS Unacceptable Behaviours Progress Review...... 25WS Covid-19 Vaccine Roll-out: Contingent Liability ... 26WS

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS. 26WS Avian Influenza: Housing Measures for Kept TREASURY ...... 25WS Birds ...... 26WS Taxation (Post-transition) Bill...... 25WS PETITIONS

Tuesday 8 December 2020

Col. No. Col. No. TREASURY ...... 7P WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 8P Closure of Partick branch of TSB bank in Universal Credit uplift ...... 8P Glasgow...... 7P MINISTERIAL CORRECTION

Tuesday 8 December 2020

Col. No. EDUCATION...... 7MC Nurseries and Early Years Settings...... 7MC No proofs can be supplied. Corrections that Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked on a copy of the daily Hansard - not telephoned - and must be received in the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Tuesday 15 December 2020

STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT GREATLY FACILITATES THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF BOUND VOLUMES

Members may obtain excerpts of their speeches from the Official Report (within one month from the date of publication), by applying to the Editor of the Official Report, House of Commons. Volume 685 Tuesday No. 148 8 December 2020

CONTENTS

Tuesday 8 December 2020

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 693] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Justice

Covid-19 Vaccine Roll-out [Col. 715] Answer to urgent question—(Matt Hancock)

Gambling and Lotteries [Col. 735] Statement—(Nigel Huddleston)

BBC (Transparency) [Col. 753] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Alun Cairns)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Taxation (Post-transition Period) (Ways and Means) [Col. 756] Motion—(Jesse Norman) Amendment—(Bridget Phillipson)—on a Division, negatived Main Motion agreed to

Petitions [Col. 804]

Arrest of Egyptian Human Rights Advocates [Col. 807] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Global Malnutrition: FCDO Role [Col. 307WH] Covid-19: Music Education [Col. 331WH] Future of Pensions Policy [Col. 340WH] Marine Renewables: Government Support for Commercial Roll-out [Col. 366WH] Nagorno-Karabakh [Col. 374WH] General Debates

Written Statements [Col. 25WS]

Petitions [Col. 7P] Observations

Ministerial Correction [Col. 7MC]

Written Answers to Questions [The written answers can now be found at http://www.parliament.uk/writtenanswers]