Vol. 738 Wednesday No. 23 27 June 2012

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Questions Young People: Parenthood Poverty: Developing Countries Armed Forces: Discrimination Care Homes British Waterways Board (Transfer of Functions) Order 2012 Inland Waterways Advisory Council (Abolition) Order 2012 Motions to Approve Justice and Security Bill [HL] Order of Consideration Motion European Union (Approval of Treaty Amendment Decision) Bill [HL] Report House of Lords Reform Bill Statement Crime and Courts Bill [HL] Committee (4th Day) Regeneration Question for Short Debate

Grand Committee Civil Aviation Bill Committee(1st Day)

Written Statements Written Answers For column numbers see back page

£3·50 Lords wishing to be supplied with these Daily Reports should give notice to this effect to the Printed Paper Office. The bound volumes also will be sent to those Peers who similarly notify their wish to receive them. No proofs of Daily Reports are provided. Corrections for the bound volume which Lords wish to suggest to the report of their speeches should be clearly indicated in a copy of the Daily Report, which, with the column numbers concerned shown on the front cover, should be sent to the Editor of Debates, House of Lords, within 14 days of the date of the Daily Report. This issue of the Official Report is also available on the Internet at www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201213/ldhansrd/index/120627.html

PRICES AND SUBSCRIPTION RATES DAILY PARTS Single copies: Commons, £5; Lords £3·50 Annual subscriptions: Commons, £865; Lords £525 WEEKLY HANSARD Single copies: Commons, £12; Lords £6 Annual subscriptions: Commons, £440; Lords £255 Index: Annual subscriptions: Commons, £125; Lords, £65. LORDS VOLUME INDEX obtainable on standing order only. Details available on request. BOUND VOLUMES OF DEBATES are issued periodically during the session. Single copies: Commons, £105; Lords, £40. Standing orders will be accepted.

THE INDEX to each Bound Volume of House of Commons Debates is published separately at £9·00 and can be supplied to standing order. All prices are inclusive of postage.

© Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2012, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through The National Archives website at www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/parliamentary-licence-information.htm Enquiries to The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 4DU; email: [email protected] 223 Young People: Parenthood[27 JUNE 2012] Young People: Parenthood 224

Baroness Walmsley: My Lords, while welcoming House of Lords the Government’s recent statement that they intend to try to ensure that when a family breaks up, both Wednesday, 27 June 2012. parents have the opportunity to fulfil their parental responsibilities to the child—after all, that is the child’s right—will my noble friend the Minister confirm that 3pm in any legislation the safety and best interests of the child will remain upfront and centre? Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Birmingham. Lord Hill of Oareford: My noble friend is exactly right in both her points. We should try to have a Young People: Parenthood legislative framework whereby the involvement of both Question parents in the upbringing of children is made as easy as possible. She is absolutely right that the core and 3.06 pm underlying interest in all this legislation is to make sure that the interests of the child are at the heart of Asked by Lord Northbourne whatever arrangements one makes. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they are satisfied that all young people, both girls and Baroness Armstrong of Hill Top: My Lords, is the boys, when they leave secondary schools in England Minister able to reassure the House that any of the or Wales understand what their responsibilities will money that is being committed to spending on vouchers be if they become parents. for parenting will be spent exclusively on evidence-based programmes that we know work? The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): My Lords, the Government are committed to supporting good parenting, but we Lord Hill of Oareford: I believe that the parenting do not believe that it is the Government’s role to tell trials to which the noble Baroness, Lady Armstrong, parents exactly how to raise their children. As such, we refers are being delivered by well established and well are funding services that offer advice and support to all respected providers. It is important that what is provided parents, but we do not plan to prescribe how or what is, as far as possible, evidence-based. I take that point. skills schools need to teach their pupils, or to test If I can find out more information about who the pupils’ knowledge about parenting when they leave providers operating the trials are, I will make sure that school. the noble Baroness has it.

Lord Cormack: Could we gently say to our young Lord Northbourne: My Lords, I am grateful to the people in schools that the best preliminary for parenthood noble Lord for that amount of comfort, but does he is marriage? not agree that responsibility for the quality of parenting in our society is basically shared between the parents of the child and the state in its various forms and Lord Hill of Oareford: We should say many things through its various agencies? It is essential that parents to young children in schools. For all education, my should understand the responsibilities for which they starting point would be the importance of English and are responsible. The obvious place for them to learn maths. A decent grounding in those matters is most that is in secondary school as they grow up. However, likely to lead children to have successful lives, and as the noble Lord confirmed when I asked a Question many of the desirable outcomes that we all want from on 17 May, the Government are determined that education are more likely to appear. secondary schools should not be obliged to teach parenting skills. I hope that I can persuade the Baroness Butler-Sloss: My Lords, while I accept Government to think again on this subject, both on that English and maths are extremely important, does the question of whether those skills should be taught the Minister accept that the public have an interest in in school, and secondly on the urgent need for a cadre the upbringing of children, because if children are not of teachers to be developed that is skilled in dealing well brought up we pay for it in all sorts of ways? with that subject. Consequently, in so far as citizenship or anything akin to citizenship is taught in schools, will the Minister Lord Hill of Oareford: My Lords, I agree very much not consider whether parenting should be part of with the point the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, citizenship? makes about the importance of parenting. He is absolutely right that schools can play an extremely important Lord Hill of Oareford: Certainly, I agree with the part in helping to prepare young people and helping noble and learned Baroness’s underlying point that we them to understand some of the issues that he discusses. all have a shared interest in making sure that children Our difference of opinion is over the degree of prescription are brought up as well as possible. It is a point that the that there should be. As he knows, rather than adding noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, made as well, so we things to the national curriculum, we are trying to take have a common interest. On the specific point about things out of it, partly to provide more space for the citizenship and the content of that within the curriculum, teaching of these sorts of issues that he refers to. as the noble and learned Baroness will know we are 225 Young People: Parenthood[LORDS] Poverty: Developing Countries 226

[LORD HILL OF OAREFORD] country level and through programmes supporting looking at the whole question of the national curriculum. women’s economic, social and political empowerment I will relay her point to my honourable friend Mr Gibb more broadly. for him to reflect on. Lord Loomba: I thank my noble friend the Minister The Lord Bishop of Liverpool: My Lords, is the for her Answer and I am grateful for the consideration Minister aware of the Children’s Society’s Good Childhood that the Government have given to this Question. report in which parenting features considerably? Is he However, the Answer does not tell the whole story. further aware of the number of primary schools that Does the Minister recall that the UN has designated already offer parenting courses for pupils’ parents? Is 23 June as International Widows’ Day as a global day his department able to tell us how many schools across of action to end all discrimination against widows, to the country offer such parenting classes? facilitate wide economic empowerment, and to enable them to enjoy their full human rights? Does the Minister accept that part of future aid budgets relating to Lord Hill of Oareford: I do not know how many women should be ring-fenced for widows who suffer schools offer that and I do not know how easy it discrimination and disadvantages? would be to find out, but I will certainly ask the question. I am aware of how much work is being done in primary and secondary schools and the way in Baroness Northover: My Lords, I pay tribute to my which many schools, particularly primary schools, are noble friend for all his work in this area, in particular finding ways of bringing parents into schools and through the Loomba Trust, which supports widows educating them at the same time as the children. I and their children in many developing countries, and agree with him on the importance of schools developing for his work in securing that UN designated day for ways of encouraging that. widows on 23 June. I recognise his point about double discrimination. Although it would not be appropriate to ring-fence money specifically for widows, it is extremely Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe: My Lords, given the important that we identify in-country those women changes in the benefits regime and the ideas being who are suffering from that double discrimination in floated over the past few days about further changes the way that he indicates so that they can be supported. that will affect in particular young people and their lifestyles, and given what the Minister has already said about not moving on parenting advice, will he say Lord Bilimoria: My Lords, ever since the inception whether there is any intention to draw these changes of the Loomba Foundation in 1988 by Raj Loomba, I to the attention of young people? Will he also say have chaired its advisory council. On International whether some thought might be given to giving some Widows’ Day on Saturday, 23 June, the Deputy Prime well placed advice on servicing tax liabilities and Minister, Nick Clegg, made the best speech that I have responsibilities at some point, too? ever heard him give.

Lord Hill of Oareford: My Lords, it seems to me Noble Lords: Oh! that all those matters could be considered and taught within the existing PSHE framework in schools. Lord Bilimoria: In that speech, he asked why no one had highlighted the plight of widows around the world until Raj Loomba did all those years ago. Can the Poverty: Developing Countries Minister tell us what the Government’s priorities are, Question where DfID is concerned, in the billions of pounds of aid that we give every year to help the 245 million 3.14 pm widows and the 500 children, particularly with the education of poor widows’ children around the world? Asked by Lord Loomba To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps Baroness Northover: I am glad that the noble Lord they are taking to support widows who live in heard yet another stunning speech from my right poverty in developing countries. honourable friend the Deputy Prime Minister. Of course, my right honourable friend was quite right, as Lord Loomba: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the is the noble Lord, that the Loomba Foundation has Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. In done a huge amount in emphasising the particular doing so, I take the opportunity to declare an interest challenges faced by widows through double discrimination. as founder and chairman trustee of the Loomba As my noble friend mentioned in the previous Question Foundation. in relation to the United Kingdom, it is absolutely right that education is so important in terms of children’s prospects. We recognise that internationally as we as Baroness Northover: My Lords, widows and their we do nationally. We are especially aware that when children are among the poorest and most vulnerable in somebody is widowed or loses their partner for any societies across the world. The Government have put other reason, it is girl children in particular who suffer. girls and women at the heart of their development That is why DfID emphasises the support of girl assistance. We provide targeted support to widows at children. 227 Poverty: Developing Countries[27 JUNE 2012] Armed Forces: Discrimination 228

Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale: My Lords, about DfID have on the situation of widows and their daughters, 40 per cent of adult women in the eastern Congo are and will she place those data in the Library of the widows. Many of them have suffered from sexual House? violence during the conflicts that have occurred in that region. What are the Government doing as part of our Baroness Northover: I will answer the noble Baroness bilateral aid programme to the DRC to ensure that the in detail through a letter but I can tell her and noble rights of those widows to shelter, security and in Lords that DfID has programmes in Rwanda, Pakistan, particular to land are able to be used by them in a way India and the DRC, as well as elsewhere, targeted that gives them the opportunity to rebuild their lives specifically at widows. However, given the time, I shall following the conflicts in that area over the past 30 years? write to her with many more details.

Baroness Northover: The noble Lord is right. DfID does indeed identify the particular problems of widows Armed Forces: Discrimination in the DRC and has programmes to support them. Question Again, he is right that widows often lose their land when widowed, and one of the programmes that DfID 3.22 pm is carrying out not only in the DRC but elsewhere is to support the rights of women in that situation to land Asked By Lord Tunnicliffe when widowed. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their assessment of the levels of discrimination against Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, I think it is serving and former members of Her Majesty’s Armed a very good thing that the Government are supporting— Forces.

Lord Avebury: My Lords— The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): My Lords, the Baroness Gardner of Parkes: We have not had a Armed Forces covenant sets out the principles that question from the Conservative Benches. those who serve in the Armed Forces, whether regular or reserve, those who have served in the past and their families should face no disadvantage compared with The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord other citizens and that special consideration is appropriate Strathclyde): My Lords, I think that it is the turn of in some cases, especially for those who have given my noble friend Lady Gardner. most, such as the injured and the bereaved. Any discrimination against members of the Armed Forces Baroness Gardner of Parkes: Returning to my point, community is to be abhorred, and we will continue to I was for many years the chairman of the UK branch be alert to any cases which are brought to our attention. of PLAN International, which has a programme of I believe that the vast majority of the population are helping to educate children and also provides great hugely supportive of those who defend them. help to widows in many countries. I am glad that the Minister mentioned that the Government are doing Lord Tunnicliffe: My Lords, I agree with the Minister what they can but one very big problem arises in about that wide support. Saturday is Armed Forces countries where all inheritance goes to a male relative. Day. It will be a day of celebration. Never in recent Women find that they suddenly have nothing because times has the level of approval of the Armed Forces their husband’s brother or one of their husband’s been so high. Nevertheless, despite the efforts of both brother’s sons has inherited everything. I hope that she parties, some members of the Armed Forces still have will press the Governments of the world on this matter. problems. The splendid report of the noble Lord, I think that Uganda has changed this law and that has Lord Ashcroft—I never thought that I would find made a dramatic difference to women. Will she press myself saying that—found that in the past five years Commonwealth countries and other countries in general 20% have suffered verbal abuse, 5% have suffered to look into this further? violence or attempted violence, 18% have been refused service in hotels, pubs and elsewhere when wearing the Baroness Northover: My noble friend is right, and it uniform in the UK, and more than 25% have been follows on from the previous Question about equal refused a mortgage, loan or credit card. My right rights, whether to land or other property. I do not honourable friend Jim Murphy, the shadow Secretary know what hereditary Peers would make of that. of State, wrote to the Secretary of State on 27 May to Nevertheless, that is what we support. urge him to hold cross-party talks on how to end discrimination against our Armed Forces and their Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead: My Lords, can the families, including the option of introducing new legal Minister give at least some detail of specific DfID protections for the services community. Will the Minister policies designed to tackle the abuse and discrimination assure the House that this request will receive the faced by widows of all ages, their children and their fullest possible consideration? grandchildren, for whom they are often also responsible? The Minister mentioned focusing on women and girls Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, we thank my noble but are the challenges faced by widows an integral friend Lord Ashcroft for his very helpful report and part of DfID’s policy? Finally, what specific data does are reassured by the high level of support for the 229 Armed Forces: Discrimination[LORDS] Care Homes 230

[LORD ASTOR OF HEVER] Baroness Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde: Does the Minister Armed Forces that he mentions. The report provides agree that discrimination can take many forms? With pointers to areas requiring attention. We believe that the repositioning of Armed Forces personnel from education rather than legislation is the most effective Germany over the coming years, one area of concern way to combat discrimination. We can lead this if we may well be about the opportunity for their children to work together on a cross-party basis in Parliament to have access to the schools that their parents want them celebrate the contribution of our Armed Forces. An to go to and to get on the doctor’s list in the area that example of this is having troops marching into Parliament they wish. Does he agree that we may need to review on their return from Afghanistan and being given the covenant, which is an extremely good initiative, to refreshments and tours by MPs and noble Lords. This ensure that the families of Armed Forces personnel is the initiative of the All-Party Group for the Armed are not indirectly discriminated against? Forces. In his letter to Jim Murphy, the Secretary of State said: Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, the noble Baroness “I would welcome a discussion with you on how we can ensure makes a very good point about children’s education that everything we do in Parliament emphasises our cross-party and doctors. This is an area that we are looking at very support for the Armed Forces and the people who serve in them”. closely.

Lord Addington: My Lords, does my noble friend Lord Luke: My Lords, this discrimination is quite agree that it is not now that is the problem, as the deplorable. Could more not be done in local communities Armed Forces have a high profile since they are engaged to help? in combat and we have casualties coming back? We must do something that guarantees that we continue to take an interest when this conflict is over because Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, I agree with my discrimination usually increases during times of ignorance. noble friend. A great deal can be done by local communities. Peace in Afghanistan may well bring this. Community covenants are voluntary statements of mutual support between the civilian community and its local Armed Forces community in the form of a Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, my noble friend written pledge. These local partnerships are usually makes a very good point. The problem exists not just made between the Armed Forces in an area and the in the present but in the future. I entirely agree with local authority and joined by local business organisations, him. charities and other public bodies as appropriate.

Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, the worst Care Homes discrimination I ever suffered was shortly after meeting Question my wife, when she told me that the two most useless things in a sailing boat are an umbrella and a naval officer. Joking aside, the Minister referred to education. 3.29 pm We need to educate young people about the importance Asked by Baroness Wheeler of the services and one of the best ways of doing that is the cadet forces. Are we going to put more effort To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action into getting CCF and other units into a broader they will take in the light of the finding of the Care spectrum of schools to try to encourage this? Quality Commission’s recent unannounced inspections of care homes and treatment centres for people with learning disabilities, that around half of those Lord Astor of Hever: I am grateful to the noble inspected were not meeting essential standards of Lord for that question. The answer is yes, we are care. working very hard on that and we may have more to say on the issue in the days to come. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe): My Lords, the CQC’s findings Lord Selkirk of Douglas: My Lords, what advice show unacceptable levels of care. On Monday a Department and guidance would the Minister give to service personnel of Health report set out 14 national actions to improve who find themselves in difficulties as a result of direct care and support for people with learning disabilities discrimination? or autism and behaviours that challenge. All parts of the health and care system have a role to play in driving Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, first, I would tell up standards, stopping abuse and transforming local them to get in contact with their chain of command, services. which will work closely with the civil police or other bodies, as appropriate, to address any problem. I Baroness Wheeler: My Lords, in its inspection of understand one of the problems that they encounter is care homes and assessment centres in the light of the with mortgage lenders. Service personnel facing credit- serious abuse and appalling standards of care at rating difficulties because of time spent abroad should Winterbourne View hospital for people with learning approach prospective mortgage lenders, and all prospective disabilities, the CQC found that of the 150 inspections landlords or letting agents, to instruct their credit it carried out, independent healthcare providers were reference-checking agencies to undertake a manual twice as likely to fail to meet the required standards as check of the individual circumstances. NHS providers. How does the Minister account for 231 Care Homes[27 JUNE 2012] Inland Waterways Advisory Council 232 that? Can he say specifically what steps he will be restraint is only ever used as a last resort. The report taking to ensure that clinical commissioning groups published on Monday is an interim report and we will tackle the problems the commission found over lengths be publishing a final report later in the year. of stay in services, failure to review care plans so that residents can be moved on to community-based services, Baroness Barker: My Lords, does the Minister agree and the very worrying overuse of restraint of patients? that this report calls into question the role of local safeguarding adult bodies? What are they doing now Earl Howe: My Lords, it is true that CQC inspectors while people are being mistreated in a way that the found that for the kind of services they inspected, CQC has uncovered? Does the Minister think that it is there was more non-compliance in services run by the time to revisit the legal bases of those organisations? private sector. But the information the CQC gathered for its report does not enable it to analyse the reasons Earl Howe: My Lords, my noble friend is right to for that. I would simply say that all providers of call that matter into question. My department will be services, whether in the independent sector or the working with the NHS Commissioning Board Authority NHS, need to ensure that they comply with essential to agree by January next year how best to embed standards. The noble Baroness summarised a number quality of health principles in the system using NHS of the areas where the CQC found failings and I contracting and guidance. Those principles will set out endorse her view that there is a fundamental failing the expectations of service users in relation to their across the system, not just in providers but in terms of experience. We are taking a range of other action—the commissioning as well. The examples of poor care 14 national actions to which I referred in my initial show up a fundamental need for commissioners to Answer—which I would suggest my noble friend looks review commissioning plans and care plans, and make at. We are clear that there is a need not just for sure not just that the providers are capable of offering providers but for everybody in the system to focus on and providing care to the right standards but that they their responsibilities and to work together to drive up are actually doing so at the right level for the patients standards in the way that we all wish to see. and service users they look after. Baroness Browning: My Lords, given the number of Lord Patel: My Lords— years that have passed since we saw the Mencap report Death by Indifference, and the fact that these reports show an inadequate level of improvement, I find myself The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord in the strange position of asking my noble friend if he Strathclyde): The noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, is would please reconsider a proper register, professionally trying to get in. supervised by those working in the care industry?

Baroness Campbell of Surbiton: My Lords, in 2008 Earl Howe: My Lords, as my noble friend knows, the Joint Committee on Human Rights produced a we committed in the Health and Social Care Act to shocking report which highlighted some of the most facilitate a voluntary register for care workers and degrading experiences endured by adults with learning health workers. We believe that the system should be disabilities in health and residential care settings. Four years tried before we think about any statutory regulation. on we are debating the same human rights abuses—this However, I understand the urgency and strength of time highlighted by the CQC report, which shows feeling around this issue and it is a matter that we will excessive use of restraint and seclusion in assessment keep under regular review. and treatment facilities. Will the Minister assure us that he will return to the JCHR and CQC reports and tell us what measures the Government will take now to British Waterways Board (Transfer of protect the liberties and safety of this highly vulnerable Functions) Order 2012 group so that we do not sit here again in four years debating how we have failed for a third time? Inland Waterways Advisory Council Earl Howe: The noble Baroness’s remarks will resonate (Abolition) Order 2012 with many noble Lords. We have been here before. Motion to Approve One of the emerging issues from the review is around poor practice on the use of restraint, as she rightly 3.36 pm mentioned. CQC inspectors found that only 73% of Moved by Lord Taylor of Holbeach locations met requirements on physical intervention or restraint. There was ineffective monitoring of restraint That the draft orders laid before the House on data and learning from incidents. Staff were not always 29 February be approved. trained and restraint was not always delivered in line Relevant documents: 58th Report from the Merits with the care plan. There are real lessons to be learnt Committee, Session 2010–12; 43rd Report from the by providers about the use of restraint. We have flagged Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, Session this up as one of the actions that we will take in the 2010–12; 1st and 4th Reports from the Secondary department to work with the Department for Education, Legislation Scrutiny Committee, considered in Grand the Care Quality Commission and others to drive up Committee on 25 June. standards and promote best practice in the use of positive behavioural support and ensure that physical Motion approved. 233 Justice and Security Bill [HL][LORDS] Arrangement of Business 234

Justice and Security Bill [HL] European Union? We could also hold our own referendum Order of Consideration Motion under different legislation which, if you like, would deal with our own political problems but would not stand in the way of a resolution to the eurozone crisis, 3.36 pm which we might all agree might be necessary in a Moved by Lord Wallace of Tankerness matter of days. That it be an instruction to the Committee of the Whole House to which the Justice and Security Bill The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth [HL] has been committed that they consider the Bill Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): My Lords, the in the following order: noble Lord has raised wider issues of great importance, ones that your Lordships will no doubt wish to debate. Clause 1, Schedule 1, Clauses 2 to 15, Schedules 2 Indeed, it is possible that he may have an opportunity and 3, Clause 16. to raise them at Third Reading. However, this Bill is concerned merely with amending Article 136 of the Motion agreed. Lisbon treaty, and there being no amendments to it on Report, I beg to move. European Union (Approval of Treaty Amendment Decision) Bill [HL] Report received. Report Arrangement of Business 3.37 pm Announcement Moved by Lord Howell of Guildford 3.41 pm That the Report be now received. Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, it has been agreed that the Statement which is about to be given Lord Owen: My Lords, I know that other important by my noble friend Lord Strathclyde should follow the business awaits so I will be very brief. However, there extended procedure for Back-Bench contributions. Perhaps is a procedural question of some importance under I may remind the House that this means that after my the European Union Act 2011, which we are discussing, noble friend has made his Statement and the Leader of and the Explanatory Note relating to referendums. the Opposition has made her speech, my noble friend Treaty referendum is becoming a very live subject will respond to her. At that point we shall have 40 minutes now that the Finance Minister of Germany has for the Back-Bench speeches— announced that there could be a referendum on a rather more urgent timescale than has been considered— A noble Lord: Questions. presumably in relationship to the single European banking supervision system which is being proposed by some people. However, my point goes much wider Baroness Anelay of St Johns: Questions—I am than that. Under the circumstances, it is possible for a prompted on an absolutely correct point. We want to Minister under the simplified revision procedure to include as many participants as possible in this debate, make a statement under Section 5 of the Act that, and I know that many noble Lords are keen to ask although a transfer of power from the UK to the EU questions. In Statements we normally ask two questions falling within Section 4 of this Act has taken place, the for elucidation; we do not make speeches. proposed change is considered not significant. There When we reach the 40 minutes for questions, it has are circumstances in which it might be very urgent, been decided that it would be helpful to the House if during the present crisis over the eurozone, for the we followed the normal procedure for extended debates British Government to give powers, and I think that whereby the first person to ask questions will be the they have overall adopted a very conciliatory attitude Convener of the Cross Benches, followed thereafter by to those members of the eurozone to the effect that we a right reverend Prelate. Today I understand that it do not wish to stand in their way on making changes will be the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester. that we may not ourselves wish for but which are Following him will be my noble friend Lord Dholakia, related purely to the eurozone. So it is quite possible and then the noble Lord, Lord Richard, as the chair of that a decision might come that is not considered the Joint Select Committee. significant in terms of the Act, but if passed by this House would allow the European Union treaties to be The Countess of Mar: My Lords, in the light of the amended and action to take place urgently. That might importance of this subject, can the proceedings in be helpful. Grand Committee be suspended while the noble Lord However, in the same circumstances, the Government, makes his Statement? not using the 2011 Act, might consider that the implications of these changes are of such importance Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, I am glad that they wish to call a referendum under the general to be able to announce that, as will shortly be made powers, although not in a way that would stop the clear on the annunciator, the proceedings in Grand rest of the European Union living under the treaty Committee will not go ahead until 4.45 pm, which amendments they had agreed. When the Bill comes permits those noble Lords who intend to take part in back on Third Reading, will it possible to clarify the the first day of the Committee stage of the Civil not-significant clause in a helpful way towards the Aviation Bill to be present in the Chamber. 235 Arrangement of Business[27 JUNE 2012] House of Lords Reform Bill 236

House of Lords Reform Bill A further substantial change intended to provide a Statement clear differentiation between the role of MPs and that of elected Members of the reformed House is that the areas from which elected Members will be returned are now larger regions rather than the smaller electoral districts proposed in the White Paper. Using these 3.43 pm regions means that there will be a larger number of The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord seats in each district, which in turn would have led to Strathclyde): My Lords, the Government have today significant practical issues if an STV system had been published our response to the report from the Joint used. The Government share the Joint Committee’s Committee on the draft House of Lords Reform Bill view that the complexity of the electoral system is an of last Session. We have reflected, and we are now in a important consideration, and that voters should have position to introduce a Bill. The House of Commons the option of simply voting for a party. The Government has today given a First Reading to a House of Lords therefore consider that the most appropriate electoral Reform Bill introduced by the Government and copies system for the reformed House in Great Britain is a are available in the Printed Paper Office. The Government, regional, semi-open list, and that is what is now proposed. after a White Paper, joint pre-legislative scrutiny and In many other respects the draft Bill and the Bill many debates, have taken the next step in the legislative introduced today are the same. Elections to the second process and put the proposals before Parliament. The Chamber will happen in thirds to coincide with general Government will ask another place to give the Bill a elections. There will be a transitional period with Second Reading before the Summer Recess. existing Members leaving in thirds, as each set of The development of the Government’s Bill has elected Members arrives. Membership of the reformed benefited from the detailed scrutiny of the Joint second Chamber will no longer be linked to the peerage. Committee on the draft House of Lords Reform Bill There will be a continuing role for Church of England so valuably chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Richard. bishops, but in reduced number. A statutory Appointments The Government are grateful to the Joint Committee Commission will make nominations for the 20% of for its report. We have considered its report and we have appointed Members who would be expected to be accepted many of its conclusions and recommendations. non-party political. The Bill includes provision for I hope it might be helpful for me to set out the key Members of the House to be able to resign, it provides respects in which the Bill introduced today differs for disqualification from membership of the House, from the original draft Bill, and to identify the central and it gives the House a power to suspend or expel elements of the Bill that have not changed. The Joint Members. Committee and the Government are in agreement on Finally, the fundamental principle behind the Bill key features of our proposals. We are agreed that has not changed. The Government believe that those 80% of members of the reformed second Chamber who make the laws of the land should be elected by should be elected on the basis of proportional those to whom the laws apply, and that a democratic representation; that the reformed House should be mandate—obtained through direct elections—would smaller than the current House of Lords; that Members afford the House greater legitimacy and thereby enhance should serve for a single 15-year, non-renewable term; the House’s ability to perform its core functions of and that there should be no change to the powers and revising legislation and holding the Executive to account. functions of the two Houses. I am conscious that Members around the House We have none the less made a number of significant have taken a close interest in the cost of the Government’s changes to the Bill we have introduced today. The proposals for reform. As promised, the Government draft Bill recommended reducing the size of the House have today published their full cost estimates alongside to 300 Members. The Joint Committee recommended the impact assessment for the Bill. These, too, have 450 Members, and we have accepted its recommendation. been placed in the Printed Paper Office. The Joint Committee also recommended that the I hope that this overview has served to highlight the 90 appointed Members should not necessarily be expected main respects in which the Government’s proposals to attend the reformed House every sitting day. The have evolved since the publication of the draft Bill and committee argued that allowing individuals to maintain the publication of the Joint Committee’s report on relevant professional expertise would strengthen the that Bill. I reiterate the Government’s thanks to the reformed House, as it does the present House. The noble Lord, Lord Richard, and the other noble Lords Government have accepted this recommendation, and who served on the Joint Committee, whose report has consider that the same logic should apply to elected had a significant influence on our final proposals. Members. To reflect this, the Bill provides that IPSA I said before that there is only one way to test must pay Members according to their level of participation whether a consensus on the second phase of reform of in the work of the House. this House exists or can emerge, and that is to introduce On the recommendation of the Joint Committee, a Bill and allow Parliament to take a view. Today, that we have also significantly altered Clause 2 of the Bill. process is under way. It is no longer a declaratory statement that nothing in the Bill affects the primacy of the House of Commons, 3.50 pm the powers of each House and the conventions. Instead, it now clarifies the continuing application of the Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I thank the Parliament Acts in the context of a reformed second Leader of the House for making a Statement to your Chamber. Lordships’ House on the Government’s revised House 237 House of Lords Reform Bill[LORDS] House of Lords Reform Bill 238

[BARONESS ROYALL OF BLAISDON] The Government are proposing their revised Bill in of Lords Reform Bill, which has been introduced the face of serious and searching criticisms of their today in the other place and given a First Reading. I first attempt. We will need to consider how far this am grateful, too, for an advanced sight of the Statement. version gets in dealing with the very big questions I thank the Leader and the government Chief Whip which need to be resolved, including those about the for offering to extend to 40 minutes the normal period primacy of the House of Commons. The Government’s for Back-Bench contributions to the debate today. revised Bill today attempts to shore up in various ways This country is facing enormous difficulties. We are the wholly discredited Clause 2 of the original Bill, on in a double-dip recession; we have no economic growth; Commons primacy, by scrapping the provision entirely unemployment, especially youth unemployment, remains and replacing it with a statement in the Bill about the high. The Governor of the Bank of England did not applicability of the Parliament Acts. The Bill also mince his words yesterday when he spoke of the depth repeals the preamble to the Parliament Act 1911. Are of the economic crisis. Further efforts will be made this there any further constitutional implications of repealing week at the EU summit to try to resolve the eurozone the preamble? I look forward to hearing the views on crisis. We need jobs and we need growth; we need a this issue of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and of my change of economic strategy. Those are the country’s noble and learned friend Lord Goldsmith. priorities and those are the Opposition’s priorities. On the applicability of the Parliament Acts, can the What are the Government’s priorities? Apparently, Leader of the House explain why, in the Government’s they centre on further reform of your Lordships’ response to the report of the Joint Committee, which House. Not only is reform of your Lordships’ House has also been published today, they refer on page 7 to not at the top of the priority list of the people of this their response to recommendation 84 of the Joint country; it is not even at the bottom of the priority Committee, on the Parliament Acts, when their responses list. In fact, it is not on the list at all, because it is not a to the recommendations go from 82 to 86, without priority. Even the most positive polling figures suggest recommendation 84 being included at all? That is that less than a fifth of the people of this country interesting. regard further House of Lords reform as in any way There are also questions about the powers of the urgent. Yet this is what this Government have placed second Chamber; about the exact proportion of elected at the heart of their legislative agenda; this is what the Members, the length of their terms, whether they Government are focusing on today. Why are the should be renewable; about the system of election; Government making reform of your Lordships’ House about the relationship between the Lords and the such a priority in the light of the economic challenges Commons, about the position of this House in relation facing us? to the outcome of a referendum in Scotland on We do not from these Benches say that constitutional independence; about the place of bishops or other reform is unimportant. From 1997 onwards in religious representation; about transitional arrangements, government, we brought forward a serious programme and about the costs of the Government’s reforms. of constitutional reform, including major changes such On the question of costs, the Government have, as as devolution in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. the Leader of the House said, finally published the Constitutional reform, including further reform of the costings today on their revised proposals. I note that House of Lords, goes to important questions about these include provision for a number of allowances how Britain is governed. We on these Benches did not for Members of an elected House, including an seek a Bill on further reform of your Lordships’ accommodation allowance and a staffing allowance. House to be included in the Government’s legislative The costings do not, however, include the cost of programme, but it has been; it is there; and we as the elections for the House, put separately by the Government Opposition must respond to it. at £85.7 million for each of the elections proposed. Labour’s commitment to a fully elected second Will the Leader tell the House what the Government Chamber was explicit in its manifesto at the last believe the total net cost of all their proposals will be? general election. Labour has a long commitment to Can the Leader of the House explain to Members reform and has enacted that commitment. We want to of your Lordships’ House what the position will be in see reform, but we want to get that reform right. For an elected House in relation to remuneration? The the Labour Party, that means a fully elected second Government have been briefing the media heavily in Chamber. It means getting the powers and role of the the past few days that Members of the new elected House of Lords right, not only in itself but in relation House will not be paid a salary but will instead have a to the House of Commons. We believe, too, that the daily allowance before tax of £300. However, new issue is of such importance that it should be put to the Section 7A of Clause 46 of the Bill specifies that, people of this country in a referendum, a commitment which is strongly supported by the public according to “members of the House of Lords are to be paid … on a monthly opinion-poll evidence. basis in arrears”. We will want to examine in detail the Government’s Will the Leader of the House clarify which is correct? revised version of the House of Lords Reform Bill. Of huge importance to my party and to the Joint The first version of the Bill, published last year, was a Committee, the revised Bill does not contain a referendum. bad Bill. We thought so; the Joint Committee on the There is little logic in a position which says that we Bill thought so; and the alternative report from the have referendums to decide whether we have city mayors, Joint Committee’s minority group thought so. Pretty but not to decide whether to alter radically the composition well everyone thought so, apart from the Deputy and structure of our Parliament. We shall see whether Prime Minister. the Government’s present non-inclusion of a referendum 239 House of Lords Reform Bill[27 JUNE 2012] House of Lords Reform Bill 240 in the Bill survives whatever parliamentary processes On the overall matter of further reform of your the Bill faces. However, can the Leader of the House Lordships’ House, there are wide differences of opinion say why he believes that 55%—according to the latest across the House. That was clearly demonstrated right opinion poll—of the people of this country are wrong across the House in the days of debate we have had on in wanting to have their say on these matters in a the issue recently, both in considering the report of the referendum? Joint Committee and the alternative report and in the On these matters, Labour, whether in the other days devoted to the constitutional issues during the debate place or in your Lordships’ House, will seek as an in this Chamber on the gracious Speech. However, Opposition to scrutinise, amend and improve the Bill what was also demonstrated in those debates was a during its passage through Parliament. Lords reform seriousness about this issue—a determination that it is a serious issue and we expect the Government to should be considered properly, and a clear intention to take Parliament seriously, too, in considering it. That scrutinise fully whatever proposals the Government is why we want to see proper scrutiny of the Bill in the place before Parliament. Can the Leader of the House other place, where it will be taken first. That is why we give us a commitment that if this Bill does get to your will oppose in the other place the proposed timetable Lordships’ House, the Members of this House will for the Bill which would, effectively, guillotine debate. have all the time they need to scrutinise the proposals However, we are a party in favour of reform, which is fully and properly? why Ed Miliband also announced yesterday that Labour We have revised proposals before us today. In this in the Commons will be voting for a Second Reading House we have time—possibly a good deal of time—to of the Bill. For a Bill about which we have real consider these proposals while they are in the House reservations, this is an unusual step for an Opposition. of Commons. That is what I expect that many individual There is indeed plenty of precedent for legislative Members of this House will wish to do. For our part, proposals being opposed at this stage. both in the other place and, if necessary, in your For example, in 1999, the party opposite, including Lordships’ House, we will ensure that the Government’s 11 members of the current Cabinet, proposed and proposals are properly debated, properly considered, voted for a reasoned amendment and against the properly questioned and properly scrutinised. That is Second Reading of the Labour Government’s 1999 the job of the Opposition; and starting from the House of Lords Bill on hereditary peers. We know publication of the Bill today, that is the job that we that there are members of my party, both in this House will be getting on with. and the other place, who would wish to vote against the Bill for reasons of principle. I respect those who 4.02 pm hold this view, but the shadow Cabinet, of which I am a member, disagrees with them, and Labour will vote Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, having read what for a Second Reading in the other place later this month. Mr Miliband said in support of the prospect of reform, I was surprised by much of what the noble Baroness Noble Lords: Next month. said this afternoon. I was very impressed with what Mr Miliband said yesterday. He pledged the Labour Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: It is next month, forgive Party’s support for the Second Reading of the Bill, me. It is not July—hell. even before he had had an opportunity to see it. We know, too, that there are great differences of Perhaps when he has read it, he will decide to support opinion—vast gulfs of opinion—between the constituent a programme Motion to rush it through the House parties of the coalition, and within the ranks of the of Commons and into this House as quickly as Conservative party, both in the other place and in this possible. House. As the Prime Minister said in the other place earlier today, there are those in all parties who oppose The noble Baroness asked whether this should be a further reform of the House of Lords, just as there are priority. It has been hanging around for so long that those who support further reform. We shall see how we have to get around to it at some stage. It started in those differences emerge as the Bill goes through its 1998-99 as a great priority of the previous Government. Commons stages. They published their last White Paper in 2008. I dare say that if the Labour Party had won the election it It is likely that those stages will be protracted. The would have brought forward a Bill. This coalition has Bill is, I suspect, many months away from coming decided that it is time to bring this debate to an end before this House, if indeed it manages to get out of and to ask Parliament what its view is, and it is right the Commons. Given the dates for Second Reading in that we should do so. the other place, it is likely that the House of Commons will go into Committee on the Bill when it sits in There is also the bizarre suggestion that when important September. Recently the noble Lord the Leader of the things are happening, Parliament cannot decide on House all but issued as a threat the possibility that this other important issues. It is worth reflecting that on House would have to sit in September to deal with the 6 and 7 June 1944, the House of Lords was debating Financial Services Bill. Can I inform him that in order the all-important Butler Education Act on Second to deal with a range of matters, such as the Government’s Reading. Of course, getting growth into the economy legislative programme and their record on jobs and is important, but that is not going to be done just in growth, we on these Benches would welcome sitting in Parliament; it is going to be done by businesses and September when the Commons will be deliberating on entrepreneurs up and down the country. this Bill. I ask the Leader of the House to arrange now The noble Baroness reiterated the Labour Party’s that this House should indeed sit in September to view that what is most important in reform is that the consider these important matters. House should be 100% elected. Respectfully, we disagree, 241 House of Lords Reform Bill[LORDS] House of Lords Reform Bill 242

[LORD STRATHCLYDE] 4.08 pm as did the Joint Committee. Although she did not say Lord Laming: My Lords, I will be brief. I, too, thank that the powers between the Houses should be codified, the Leader of the House for repeating this Statement I think that is what she meant. Again, respectfully, we on a Bill that will clearly repay careful study, and for disagree. She said that there should be a referendum. agreeing to this extended time of questioning. We see no case whatever for a referendum on the issue. Parliament should decide. It would cost £80 million to It was entirely understandable that the new coalition have a referendum on this issue, which was included as Government introduced a full and challenging legislative part of all three main parties’ political manifestos. I programme that required an extended first Session. urge the Opposition to have more confidence in their Inevitably some of that legislation was controversial. manifesto, which is only two years old. I hate to point Does the Leader agree that every one of those Bills out to noble Lords opposite that there were no was carefully scrutinised in this House? Does he agree referendums in 1958 or 1999, when the composition of that, thanks to the hard work of colleagues from all the House was changed, and we see no case for one around the House, each one of those Bills was greatly now. improved, so much so that during the period of scrutiny the Government had time to reflect on points that had On the question of primacy, it is true that the Joint been made and brought forward very many changes to Committee had a substantial debate on Clause 2, their own legislation? As a starting point, does the helped by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, Leader agree that this House has demonstrated time and the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and the Government and again its ability to fulfil its responsibilities in the reflected on that. That is why we have changed the Bill scrutiny and improvement of legislation? in this way. This is in part because this Bill is about the composition of a reformed House of Lords and the Secondly, does the Leader agree that the House has transition arrangements for getting there. It is not changed greatly in recent years, and that time and about the functions, powers and role of the two Houses, again it has shown its willingness to change? Indeed, which we would like to see remain unaffected by that across the House there is agreement that further change. The Bill clearly states that the Parliament Acts incremental change is still there for the taking. of 1911 and 1949 will continue to apply after the Thirdly, will the Leader accept that my colleagues introduction of elected Members. and I welcome that the Bill will endorse that 20% of The Parliament Acts underpin the primacy of the the membership of the House will be appointed, but House of Commons in statute. They limit the legislative will he assure the House that the appointed Members power of the Lords and ensure that any Administration will be genuinely independent and without any party with a majority in the Commons can ultimately pass political allegiance? legislation without agreement of the House of Lords. We are not aware of any further constitutional implications Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, I am grateful for the of repealing the preamble to the 1911 Act. Convenor’s questions. Of course I agree with him: the On the questions of cost raised by the noble Baroness, House of Lords, not just since the general election but Lady Royall, she rightly pointed out that the cost of broadly since 1999, has done a good job of scrutiny election was excluded from the cost of the House; it and worked well on Bills. I have put on record many stands at £85.7 million every five years. We believe that times that this is not about the current effectiveness of at the end of the transition period the projected additional the House of Lords, which is recognised as having annual cost of the House of Lords will be £13.6 million. done its job extremely well and having improved Of course there will be other associated costs during legislation. The Government’s view is to improve the the course of transition. As for pay, there is something legitimacy of the House—indeed, to strengthen its inherently useful about the current arrangements whereby ability to hold the Government to account and to Peers have a daily allowance, and we wish to replicate challenge the decisions of the House of Commons. that through a per diem salary that would be paid On the noble Lord’s second question, yes, the House monthly in arrears but would be assessed on daily has changed substantially throughout the 20th century, attendance in this House. most recently in 1999, and has always accepted such In the course of the next few months, there will be changes. Many of my colleagues in the coalition regard many opportunities to discuss some of these issues, but the transitional period as being extremely long. There it is also right for the House of Commons now to take was no transitional period, or not a very big one, in its view. I have no idea when the House of Commons 1998-99, but there will be a substantial one for the new is going to discuss these issues, and whether it will be House to get used to the new arrangements over three early or late in the autumn. We also have work to do electoral cycles. and we should get on with that before dealing with the I confirm that the 20% appointed Members will be Bill when it gets to us some time in the winter. appointed by a statutory Appointments Commission, as laid out in the Bill, and will be non-party political Members of this House. Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, for the avoidance of doubt can I say explicitly that if my Government had been in power now and had faced The Lord Bishop of Leicester: My Lords, I am the economic situation which the country faces now, grateful to the Leader for his clarification of the this would not have been at the top of our priorities Government’s proposals. We on these Benches recognise and we would not be discussing this Bill in the House the need for some reform of this House, and welcome of Commons today? the opportunity that the Bill will give for a thorough 243 House of Lords Reform Bill[27 JUNE 2012] House of Lords Reform Bill 244 debate about the future of Parliament. In particular, member of the Liberal Democrat Benches to speak we are pleased to see that the Government endorse the after the noble and right reverend Bishop. It was my Joint Committee’s recommendation on the continuing error in saying “my noble friend Lord Dholakia”. I contribution of the Lords spiritual to a reformed apologise; I should have said “my noble friend Lord House, albeit that the decision to raise the proposed Tyler”—which I did say—followed by “the noble Lord, size of the House to 450 from the original proposal of Lord Richard”. 300 suggests that the proportion of Bishops, at the number of 12, may be too low if the total number is Lord Tyler: My Lords, my noble friend Lord Dholakia revised upwards. is not able to be here, and I have been asked to We have always said that we will assess the proposals respond. I am very sorry if I am holding up the noble on the basis of what makes for the good governance of Lord, Lord Richard, because I am looking forward Britain. I therefore raise two questions. First, as a very much to his response. He and other members of member of the Joint Committee, I remained puzzled the committee will agree that the Government have in throughout the course of its work about how the the main responded to our report. Government’s expressed desire for a more assertive House could be squared with the confident assertion Has my noble friend the Leader noted very intriguing that a reformed House could be relied upon to exercise variations in consistency on this issue? He will have the necessary self-restraint required to guarantee the noted, I think, that David Cameron and George Osborne primacy and effectiveness of the House of Commons. voted for the 80/20 hybrid House as long ago as Will the Leader help us to be as certain as he appears February 2003, as indeed I did. However, a great many to be that the Parliament Act will prevent the serious others seem to have changed their minds since. I risk of dysfunction in the relationship between the two particularly welcome—and I think that other members Houses? of the Joint Committee will join me in this—the fact that the Government have taken such trouble with a Secondly, as your Lordships will be aware, the very robust and comprehensive analysis of the cost Church of England has always argued for diverse projections to lay to rest the otherwise very speculative religious representation in this House so that it properly scaremongering expenditure estimates that were given reflects the diversity of civil society as a whole. The to us previously. That is very helpful. That also responds Government appear not to have accepted the Joint to the report recommendations. Committee’s recommendation that it is necessary for the Bill to make explicit reference to the inclusion of May I ask my noble friend the Leader to expand in major faiths in a reformed House. How is it proposed due course, not necessarily now, on the true comparison that the Appointments Commission can ensure that a between the Government’s proposals in this very useful reformed House will reflect the religious heritage and document on the projection of cost and what would cultural diversity of Britain today? otherwise happen if the Government’s proposals did not go through? If the size of the House continued to expand, the cost of this House would of course also Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, I reiterate a view that I increase dramatically. have long held and which the Government also hold: the Lords spiritual play a valuable and important role in the House and make an important contribution. Lord Strathclyde: Yes, my Lords, we most certainly The right reverend Prelate wonders about the numbers. can. My noble friend is entirely correct. There has I think it was the Joint Committee that suggested a been a very robust analysis of the cost, including an reduction to 12 Bishops. The proposal in the Bill is examination of what the cost might have been if no that there should be five named Bishops and Archbishops, reform had taken place—it would increase substantially. and then seven others chosen by the Church of England. I said in reply to the Leader of the Opposition that the On two key questions of self-restraint and how this net cost in the first year after transition would be an can be achieved, of course nothing can be guaranteed. extra £13.6 million per year, and I stand by that It depends on the House evolving, and its new relationship amount. I am very happy to write to my noble friend with the second Chamber, which either will or will not about how the costs have been robustly examined. I change. It will be up to the new House, and the House think the House will find that when it looks at the of Commons, to decide how best to govern itself. Explanatory Memorandum and the reply to the Joint On the second question the right reverend Prelate Committee of both Houses, it will see very clearly how raises, he is right to point out that we have not accepted those costs have been reached and how they are that there should be an explicit condition on the substantially different from the ones proposed by the statutory Appointments Commission to put in Peers noble Lord, Lord Lipsey. of other faiths and make sure they are represented. There is no such view on the current Appointments Lord Richard: My Lords, it was indeed a privilege Commission, yet it works extremely well. Other faiths and a pleasure, although perhaps not a treasure beyond have been introduced into the House, and I hope that measure, to have been asked to chair the Joint Committee. that will continue. It was a fascinating experience, and I greatly enjoyed it. We exposed a very large number of issues in the Lord Tyler: My Lords— course of it, some of which I am happy to say the Government have taken on board. It is now proposed Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, I did that the size of the House should be 450 rather than explain at the very beginning and I repeat that it has 300. That is thoroughly sensible. However, the main been the custom of these extended debates for a senior issue that the Joint Committee spent a great deal of 245 House of Lords Reform Bill[LORDS] House of Lords Reform Bill 246

[LORD RICHARD] which is the anticipated date of the first elections. time on was raised by the noble and right reverend However, it is certainly a suggestion that a successor Prelate the Bishop of Leicester: namely, the primacy House may well wish to look at sensibly. of the House of Commons and the relationship between the two Houses. Lord Harries of Pentregarth: My Lords, I appreciate The Government are quite right to put in the provision the way that the Government have taken on board the clarifying totally the issue of the Parliament Acts. main principles of the Joint Committee. I note that There was a lacuna there, and it was clearly pointed the Bill now overlaps in most significant respects with out to the Joint Committee by the noble Lord, Lord the recommendations of the royal commission chaired Pannick, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord a few years ago by the noble Lord, Lord Wakeham, Goldsmith. The Government have put that right, and but with one significant difference. The Wakeham that is to be welcomed, but I am not sure whether commission allowed for the possibility of at least a few merely dealing with primacy in that way, and only in experienced politicians being appointed to the new that way, in the Bill will be sufficient. I ask the Leader second Chamber. How does the Leader of the House of the House whether he will look at this issue of envisage providing, under the Bill, for people who primacy again, and at whether there are ways in which have perhaps stood for election to the House of Commons one could perhaps not exactly buttress the primacy of two or three times and who would not necessarily be the House of Commons but at least harden it. tempted to stand again for election to this House but There was one Joint Committee recommendation who have a huge amount to offer in the way of which the Government did not accept, and I would be political experience and wisdom? If there was no such grateful if the Leader of the House could tell me why. provision in a new Chamber, would he not say that It came originally from the Cunningham report, and this was a significant loss? was that you could not codify the conventions dealing with the relationship between the two Houses and that Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, the noble and right you should not put them in statute. That I entirely reverend Lord, Lord Harries, makes two valuable agreed with. On the other hand, as we suggested, each points. First, he is entirely correct that there is a firm House could almost simultaneously pass resolutions line of thought between the conclusions of the royal in identical terms spelling out what that relationship is commission chaired by my noble friend Lord Wakeham, and what the conventions underlying that relationship the White Papers produced by the Labour Party when were. In other words, you would have a concordat it was in government, the draft Bill and, indeed, the spelt out in two documents between the two Houses Bill that we have published today. That is why I have that would set out the basic relationship between the said that very little is new in all of this; the noble and two. I am not suggesting that that is immutable and right reverend Lord is entirely correct. The second can inevitably last in perpetuity, but I do say that point that he raises is more difficult and more intriguing. although you cannot guarantee the primacy of the It is right that unless former distinguished Members of House of Commons in perpetuity—it cannot be done— the House of Commons were prepared to stand for you can produce a set of proposals that make it far election under their party label, we would lose some of more likely that that primacy will last than if you do that expertise. Having said that, I do not think that it not have those proposals in the Bill. would be beyond the terms of reference of the statutory The Government should therefore perhaps look Appointments Commission to select a small number again at whether you cannot harden that part of the of most eminent politicians—a very select few—who relationship between the two Houses, and I ask the might be interested in serving the nation and this noble Lord to look at it. House without a party political label.

Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, the noble Lord is of Lord Howe of Aberavon: My Lords, my noble friend course entirely correct that a large part of his report will surely remember that it is only a few years ago that and the evidence that he received was on precisely this the Public Administration Select Committee of the point about powers and primacy. There is a difference House of Commons concluded that the principal cause of opinion. My view, and the Government’s view, is of today’s widespread public disillusionment with our that we should not worry too much about this at this political system is the virtually untrammelled control stage. There is no need to do so. What could be a by the Executive of the elected House of Commons. potential outcome of this? We could end up with an The committee reached important conclusions. First, elected House having less power than the current that there is a need to ensure that the domination of House. That would be completely absurd. In the Bill, Parliament by the Executive, including the political the Government have protected the current rights and party machines, is reduced and not increased and, privileges of the House of Commons and the House secondly, that, of Lords and have asserted that the Bill is about “the second chamber has to be neither rival nor replica … but composition and not about powers at all. genuinely complementary”, The noble Lord, Lord Richard, has made an entirely to the Commons, and therefore, “as different as possible”. sensible observation: that one way around this is to On that very sound basis, coming from the other look again at the conventions that exist between the place, would my noble friend take note of the fact that two Houses, and to ask each House to pass some sort the principle underlying this Bill is one which will have of resolution. Well, maybe that is exactly what will to be examined critically and seriously, because it is happen, but there is no need for it to happen now or fundamental to the good working of this constitution before Royal Assent of this Bill, or indeed before 2015, as we have enjoyed it for so many years? 247 House of Lords Reform Bill[27 JUNE 2012] House of Lords Reform Bill 248

Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, I agree with my noble doubt that it is a proportional system. Therefore, there and learned friend that this Bill should be fully examined will be no natural majority for any Government, which and I know that it will be. I agree with the examples will preserve one of the strengths of this House. that he uses: the control of the Executive in another place, the domination of Parliament by the Executive Lord Reid of Cardowan: Will the Leader of the and the need for differences between this House and House at least consider that, after the White Paper the House of Commons. However, I come, and the and all the deliberations, consultations, and discussions Government have come, to a different conclusion. I he has made a bad Bill worse? First, as has just been see these reforms as strengthening this House by giving pointed out, the new senators will be less independent it the authority of the electorate to be more assertive than originally proposed because not only will the list and occasionally to be more beastly to the House of system make them more loyal to parties but they will Commons, to hold it to account and to challenge the have to be determined on the list by the party leaders. decisions that it takes. This House will be able to do Secondly, they will be more likely to intervene in the that far better having been elected than simply having legislative process and the work of the House of been appointed. Commons because they will have no constituency Lord Lipsey: My Lords, I have no wish to extend work to do and can spend all their time dealing with discourtesy in public life, as the Deputy Prime Minister, matters of politics and legislation. Nick Clegg, did when he described my costings of the Thirdly, I am sceptical about the cost. I do not Richard report as complete nonsense. I will not apply know what the Leader of the House would think of those words to the Government’s costings. However, any new company which starts up with 450 employees would the noble Lord the Leader of the House accept and bases its overheads and costs assessment on the that their costings of £220 million omit a large number hope that they would not turn up to work, which of costs that will certainly arise under the Bill—for seems to be what he is doing. Above all, will the example, the costs of election—and therefore do not Leader of the House explain—if he knows it but stand a moment’s close scrutiny? If he will not, will he Members of the other House do not—that you cannot agree to refer those costings to an independent referee, ring-fence by regulations or by law the natural dynamic such as the Institute for Fiscal Studies, which can of politics? If you choose 300 senators with constituencies examine their costings of their proposals and my 10 times as big but with no constituency work for a costings of the Richard report, and give the public the term three times as long, whatever the regulations that correct assessment of the costs that they will have to will become through the dynamic the primary House. pay through their pocket as VAT, income tax and If there is scepticism from the Members of the House so on? of Commons about this cast-iron guarantee that they have been given, will he refer them to the cast-iron Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, the underlying guarantees that were given by Mr Straw that the assumptions and cost projections are in the public Freedom of Information Act would be ring-fenced so domain today. I fully expect that they will be given that it did not apply to MPs allowances? robust scrutiny by the IFS, the TaxPayers’ Alliance, the Labour Party and anyone else who wishes to examine them. Of course, the Government will reply Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, the noble Lord says to any questions raised on costs, which I believe have that Peers elected under this new system will be even been reached in a robust manner. less independent. We are not calling them senators at the moment: we are not calling them anything. I think Lord Deben: My Lords, does the Minister accept that the Bill calls them Members of the House of that the decision to have a list system will mean that Lords, but they will not necessarily be Lords. this House would be in effect appointed by the political The noble Lord’s charge is that they will be less parties in many cases? The people they would appoint independent than they are today. I am not sure that would be those who would not in other circumstances that holds water at all. At the moment, Peers get be chosen for this House. Many of those who work in appointed by their party leaders and presumably act this House would not wish to fight an election in those accordingly. Under this arrangement they will be elected circumstances. This proposal makes for the worst by the electorate, but once they are here they will not conceivable kind of appointment to this House. That need to be reselected to stand again because it will for is why, above all, we should look at this Bill extremely one term only. Do I agree with the noble Lord that carefully and, I hope, recognise that that which is, they will intervene in improving scrutiny of legislation? although illogical, is better than that which would just I think they will. This Bill is now in the House of be fatal. Commons. It is up to Members of the House of Commons to decide whether the noble Lord is right Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, apart from powers, and whether that will aid the scrutiny of legislation or one of the key areas will be the electoral system, which improve it. I believe that it will improve it and that is different from the one originally proposed in the draft elected Members of this House will be more assertive Bill. It is different from what was suggested by the Joint than the current House. Committee, although the committee suggested some improvements to the original system on which this is based. Under this system, it is difficult for independents Lord Woolf: My Lords, I hope that the Leader of to be elected, which is why we have reserved 20% of the House will agree that there has been a long tradition the House to independents who will be put here through that when Law Lords retired they made a significant the statutory Appointments Commission. It is beyond contribution to the deliberations of this House and 249 House of Lords Reform Bill[LORDS] House of Lords Reform Bill 250

[LORD WOOLF] page 36 of the Bill the enormous constituencies that that it is an important tradition to maintain. Will he are proposed for electing Members of this House. tell me whether the special position of the Law Lords There are eight of these huge constituencies and it will has been given consideration in the present Bill? It take the votes of millions of people to send Members seems to me that it will be very difficult—if not to your Lordships’ House in the future. Does the impossible—for former Law Lords to become Members noble Lord the Leader of the House really think that of this House through the appointment system. people sent here for 15 years with the backing of Law Lords do not retire at a particularly youthful millions of votes are going to defer to Members of the age. If the application for appointment to this House House of Commons, who will be sent to represent is to be made subsequent to their retirement, as one constituencies with electorates of no more than 80,000 would expect, the prospects of obtaining Law Lords on a minute proportion of the votes for only five in this House is going to be remote. I understand that years? Self-evidently, Members of this House will be at present the appointment of independent Cross-Bench much more powerful than colleagues at the other end and other Members is at the rate of four a year. That of the Corridor. I hope that the noble Lord will will be reduced to two a year, which is hardly consistent answer that in terms of how it will automatically affect with dealing with a category of that sort. primacy. I do not think that Members of this House will go on deferring to the Members of that House in the way that we do while we are unelected and they are Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, I have every sympathy elected. with what the noble and learned Lord says because I am one of many who voted against the constitutional vandalism of tearing out the Law Lords from this Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, I agree with some of House five or six years ago. However, it is a bit like what the noble Baroness says: I think that elected toothpaste; you cannot put it back into the tube. I Members will probably defer less than is the case with think we miss the Law Lords and I think they probably the current House. That of course is something that miss us, which is why the noble and learned Lord is the House of Commons will need to take into account suggesting that we should find a way back. I have to when it comes to its conclusions on this, and it is right tell the noble and learned Lord that there is no guarantee that it should do so. There would be no point in doing that they would be appointed by the Appointments this if this House were less assertive than it currently Commission. However, I do not believe that because is. The fact that Peers will have been elected will give they are old they are of no further use to Parliament us an authority and legitimacy that we do not have at and to the nation, and after 2015 it may be that the moment. However, I think it will be argued by particularly eminent Law Lords will still be appointed. Members of the other place that the House of Commons has ultimate legislative supremacy because of the provisions of the Parliament Acts, because the Lord Cormack: My Lords, my noble friend has Government of the day is formed from the party or repeatedly told the House that at the last general parties that can command a majority in the House of election all parties had some form of commitment to Commons and because the House of Commons has election of this House in their manifestos—they were control of financial matters. These are the protections markedly different, I would remind him. That being for another place. the case, no elector in this country had the opportunity of expressing concern on this issue. How, therefore, in all logic can someone who prides himself on his democratic Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: My Lords, I strongly credentials—namely, Mr Clegg—possibly argue against endorse what the noble Baroness, Lady Symons, has the validity and fairness of a referendum on this very just said. Certainly, if I am elected to this House, I important constitutional subject? shall be very assertive. However, looking at the way that the list system operates, I am not sure that the Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, my right honourable Prime Minister will put me on the list, thereby completely friend the Deputy Prime Minister is really not at all destroying the independence of this House, upon which convinced that there is a strong case for a referendum our constitution depends. I say to my noble friend that on this matter. Earlier, I said that the cost of a referendum it is very important that this debate is conducted in would be around £80 million. At a time of economic accurate terms. I therefore ask him and his colleagues austerity, this seems— to desist from saying things which are simply not true; for example, the assertion, as contained in the Statement, that those who make the laws should be elected. This Noble Lords: Oh! House does not make the laws; the other place makes the laws. Nothing gets passed into law without the Lord Strathclyde: It is all very well noble Lords agreement of the other place. If this is the principle laughing at this. The public will see that they are laughing upon which the Government are founding their ridiculous at a huge amount of public money being spent on a Bill—that those who are elected must make the laws—then referendum when all three parties and the coalition does the reverse apply? If it does, how on earth can the manifesto said that there should be reform of this primacy of the House of Commons be maintained? House. Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, I have made the point Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: On the contrary, about the primacy of the House of Commons and I I think that noble Lords were probably laughing at the stand by it. Of course it is an essential principle of transparent inadequacy of the answer. We now see on democracy that those who make the law should be 251 House of Lords Reform Bill[27 JUNE 2012] Crime and Courts Bill [HL] 252 elected and of course it is true that this House makes would confuse and diminish the present clear-cut the law, as we are going to be doing later this afternoon. accountability of the Government to the people through My noble friend is right. No law becomes law without their elected representatives in the House of Commons. the agreement of the House of Commons. This afternoon, this law cannot become law without the agreement of Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, all I can say is, you the House of Lords. could have fooled me. I have seen the noble Lord robustly defend or indeed attack a piece of legislation Lord Williamson of Horton: My Lords, I am aged 78 in this House. But I meet with the Deputy Prime and I expect personal decomposition before we ever Minister very regularly and I shall draw the noble agree on the composition of this House. I welcome Lord’s remarks to his attention. what is in the Bill about the independent Members and the statutory commission but I raise one single Lord Elystan-Morgan: My Lords— question. How can the noble Lord the Leader of the House justify the phrase in the Bill that, Lady Saltoun of Abernethy: My Lords— “present party political activity or affiliation does not necessarily preclude selection”, as an independent Member? I do not think that that is The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord right. McNally): I think we will hear from the noble Baroness, Lady Saltoun. Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, I think the whole House would agree that the noble Lord looks to be in Lady Saltoun of Abernethy: My Lords, what makes robust health and I wish him continuation of that for the Government think that, if this House is to continue very many long years. The line he takes is the point to do what it is doing at present, 300 Members will be made by the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord sufficient to service the committees and the offices Harries. It is our view that non-party political Members that have to be serviced? I have worked out that will be appointed. There may be a case for saying that 300 would not be nearly enough and that it would take former eminent politicians who have no interest in 450 Members to do the job. Would the noble Lord continuing a party political role could be selected by care to comment? the Statutory Appointments Commission, but it is a statutory commission and not one which is guided by Lord Strathclyde: I am delighted to end on a high party politicians. note. The noble Lady is entirely correct in her assumption. That was also seen by the noble Lord, Lord Richard. Lord Pearson of Rannoch: My Lords, why did the The Government took that advice and there will now Government ask Her Majesty the Queen to appoint a be not 300 Members but 450. record number of new life Peers, all of whom are of course personally very welcome, so that we now have a record number of some 660 life Peers? Why did they Crime and Courts Bill [HL] do that when they were already planning to reduce us Committee (4th Day) so drastically, perhaps to some 300? What has the Relevant documents: 2nd Report from the Delegated Government’s logic been in this process? Powers Committee, 2nd Report from the Constitution Committee. Lord Strathclyde: I do not think that there is any difference. We decided there should be a transition 4.50 pm arrangement over three parliamentary terms. That will give the existing House, including any new Peers Schedule 12 : Judicial appointments appointed since 2010, the opportunity to remain here until 2025 if they survive that long and if they survive the process of transition. Amendment 117 Moved by Lord Pannick Lord Howarth of Newport: My Lords, will the Leader of the House reconsider the reply that he gave just 117: Schedule 12, page 168, leave out line 42 now to the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth? Will he accept that there are few, if any, who dispute the principle Lord Pannick: My Lords, in moving Amendment 117, that those who make the laws of the land should be I shall also speak to Amendments 118, 131 and 132, elected by those to whom the laws apply? But in the which address an issue of constitutional concern. The interests of ensuring that the Deputy Prime Minister Bill would allow the Lord Chancellor to sit as a does not mislead the House of Commons or the member of the appointments commission for the posts country, will he undertake to find an opportunity to of Lord Chief Justice and president of the Supreme explain to the Deputy Prime Minister that Members Court. The amendments would deny the Lord Chancellor of the present House of Lords do not make the laws of such a role. The amendments are also in the name of the land but confine themselves to advising those who the noble Baroness, Lady Prashar, former chairman of do—the elected Members of the House of Commons? the Judicial Appointments Commission, the noble Therefore, the whole project of this Bill is based on a and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, a former Lord Chief fallacy, and a dangerous fallacy at that, because it Justice, and the noble Baroness, Lady Jay of Paddington, 253 Crime and Courts Bill [HL][LORDS] Crime and Courts Bill [HL] 254

[LORD PANNICK] Baroness Prashar: My Lords, I endorse the comments who is the distinguished chairman of the Constitution made by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. I expressed Committee, all of whom I am pleased to see in their my concerns about this provision in the Bill on Second places. Reading, so I will not repeat them this afternoon. However, following the Second Reading debate, the At present the Lord Chancellor can ask the noble Lord, Lord McNally, very kindly copied me appointments commission to think again about a proposed into the letter he sent to the noble Baroness, Lady Jay appointee, but the Lord Chancellor is not a member of of Paddington, which explains in more detail the the commission. The Constitutional Reform Act 2005 Government’s reasoning behind the proposed change. rightly recognised the need for a clearer separation of I read it very carefully and I am not convinced by powers between the Executive and the judiciary. The the rationale it advanced. The issue in question is the change proposed by the Government would regrettably appropriate involvement and accountability of the go back on that and it would have substantial Lord Chancellor. In my experience, the current disadvantages. First, it would increase the danger of arrangements work fine. If the consideration or rejection political partiality in the appointment of a senior of the recommendation is based on clear and sound judge. I recognise, as I am sure will all noble Lords, reasons, this presents no difficulty. Indeed, it helps to that the present Lord Chancellor would not contemplate concentrate the minds both of the selection panel and acting in such a manner, but even Mr Kenneth Clarke the Lord Chancellor. It is very helpful to the parties cannot continue in political life for ever. He is already concerned. Furthermore, the Lord Chancellor has above the retirement age for judges—a matter that we appropriate involvement in the course of the selection will be discussing later this afternoon. It would be process as he is consulted at relevant stages. highly undesirable to give a future Lord Chancellor the power so actively to influence the appointment of Under the proposed changes, the Lord Chancellor the senior judiciary. might choose to sit on a panel and lose his veto or choose not to sit on the panel in order to retain his The second disadvantage is that the Government’s veto. On what basis will the Lord Chancellor make proposal would undermine the appearance of political that decision? I fear that his decision to sit on the selection independence of the senior judiciary. There is a real panel will raise questions and suspicions which may danger that a new president of the Supreme Court or not be healthy—both for the selection process and for a new Lord Chief Justice would be undermined in the the perception of why the decision has been made. I eyes of the public by being seen as the Lord Chancellor’s am therefore concerned both on constitutional and man or the Lord Chancellor’s woman. That would be practical grounds. I do not see why we need to disturb most regrettable. Appearances matter in this context. the finely crafted balance of accountability and There is a third disadvantage, which is that the Judicial involvement that was arrived at in 2005. Appointments Commission would inevitably find it more difficult to conduct an objective assessment of Lord Goodhart: My Lords, the role of the Lord the rival candidates if it has the Lord Chancellor as Chancellor is very different from that which existed one of its members. Indeed, the Bill implicitly recognises before the 2005 Act came into effect. We have no the dangers involved because it provides that the Lord certainty at all that future Lord Chancellors will take Chancellor, if he does sit as a member of the appointments an equivalent role to that of the noble and learned commission, may not chair it. It is unnecessary to give Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, who was an outstandingly the Lord Chancellor the power to sit on the appointments strong and determined Lord Chancellor. The role of commission with all of the dangers that I have identified. Lord Chancellor is now entirely different because it is, The Lord Chancellor undoubtedly has a proper in effect, as ordinary a role as a Minister of the interest in the appointments process and needs to Government. It is not a role equivalent to that of the work with the Lord Chief Justice. The Lord Chancellor Lord Chancellor before the 2005 came into force. and the Government need to have confidence in the president of the Supreme Court. However, the Lord 5pm Chancellor’s and the Government’s interests are fully met by the ability of the Lord Chancellor to be a Lord Woolf: My Lords, I agree entirely with what consultee during the appointment process and by the has been said so far about the inappropriateness of current position which gives him the right of veto. altering the Lord Chancellor’s position from that contained in the 2005 Act. I do not propose to repeat the reasons Your Lordships’ Constitution Committee, of which for that, since they have already been given. I will try I am a member, conducted an inquiry into judicial to identify, however, one or two further reasons why appointments, on which we reported in March. The the same conclusion should be reached. conclusion we reached in that report has been repeated The relationship between Parliament and the judiciary in our report on the Bill, which was published on is central to the operation of our constitution and the 18 June. In each of those reports, we stated, in relation Lord Chancellor’s ability in the future. I endorse what to the role of the Lord Chancellor in the appointment has been said about the present Lord Chancellor and I process that any closer involvement—that is, closer recognise his good motives, but the constitution as than currently exists, devised by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, and myself, first in the concordat and then in the “risks politicising the process and would undermine the independence of the judiciary”. Constitutional Reform Act 2005, referred specifically to the role of the Lord Chancellor being limited to I beg to move. giving either an affirmative response or applying a veto. 255 Crime and Courts Bill [HL][27 JUNE 2012] Crime and Courts Bill [HL] 256

That was done because it needed to be clear beyond “B”. A question arises about the consistency of the peradventure that he had the responsibility of saying appointing panel’s approach. There is also the rather no to a recommendation of the Judicial Appointments bizarre question about what happens if the Lord Commission, if anyone was to do so. Because of that, Chancellor decides that he will not be a member of if he did not exercise that power, the situation would that panel and the panel has been constituted, as we be one where it could not be said afterwards that the understand it, in the legislation. Who replaces him, Government of the day had not given consent to an how is that replacement chosen, and to whom is he appointment which was in fact made. responsible? For all the reasons that noble Lords have Secondly, there is a provision in the Constitutional given, I suggest that this is both constitutionally and Reform Act 2005 which provides that if the Lord administratively inappropriate. That is why I would be Chancellor decides to exercise his veto, he has to do so very happy to support the amendment of the noble openly and give reasons for it. If he is a member of the Lord, Lord Pannick, should he ask for the House to commission responsible for the appointment, the part give an opinion on it today. that the Lord Chancellor plays will not be known. The I make one further point to reinforce the point experience in other jurisdictions is clear. One of the which the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, was making problems of having an independent appointments about the change in the Lord Chancellor’s position. commission is that deals will be done. For example, if This was confirmed in the hearings that the Constitution the Lord Chief Justice and the President are both up Committee held on this matter by the present office-holder for appointment at the same time, it is only human himself, the right honourable Kenneth Clarke, when nature for the commission to come to a decision. If the he said: members of the commission do not all agree, they will “I think that we will have a Lord Chancellor who is not a give the Lord Chancellor either the Lord Chief Justice lawyer. The lawyers that we have, including me, will not be as or the president, as long as they have the other senior and distinguished as they used to be ... A better understanding appointment. That would be highly undesirable. of my role would be to describe me as Secretary of State for For example, it can be seen clearly in other jurisdictions Justice”. that the Executive can control what the judiciary does That seems to underline the points about potential if it can only achieve a senior judge who is sympathetic politicisation, which other noble Lords have made. to its cause. I will cite but one example. One could assign a judge who is regarded as giving unhelpful Baroness Butler-Sloss: My Lords, I agree entirely decisions to parts of the jurisdiction that are unattractive with what has already been said but I wonder whether in which to operate. So far, that has not happened I might add another point. I refer to a situation where here. We do not want to make it easier for it to happen a Lord Chancellor is not a lawyer or a very senior than is the position at the present time. person but perhaps wants to make his mark in the My final point is this. The amendment must be political world and is much more overtly political than looked at in conjunction with the amendment we the present Lord Chancellor, who is very distinguished considered on Monday whereby the Lord Chancellor in his own right in the law. I ask the Minister to would give up any responsibility for the appointment visualise the meeting of the commission. The Lord of the great majority of judges. We are going to have a Chancellor is a member of the commission. He has a situation where he does not exercise any powers in role as the Secretary of State for Justice, but he is only regard to a large number of judges and, in addition, he a single member among a number of people. Either he does not openly take an active part in the appointment is going to be very powerful and he is going to override of very senior judges. I suggest that such a position what everybody else wants, or he is not going to be would be a retrograde one, and therefore the amendment very powerful, and he is going to be very dissatisfied is one that the Committee should look upon favourably. with not being able to carry the commission with him. Either way would be extraordinarily unsatisfactory for Baroness Jay of Paddington: My Lords, I am pleased someone who is head of the administration of justice to follow the noble and learned Lord in the constitutional in running the courts and having some responsibility points that he and others have made in supporting this for the judiciary. It is yet another point that leads me amendment. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, to support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord summed it up very well in his Second Reading speech Pannick. when he said that if this provision in the Government’s Bill went through, the Lord Chancellor would be in a Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws: My Lords, I too position of giving advice to himself, which in itself is wish to support the amendment of the noble Lord, anomalous, if nothing more. Lord Pannick. I see this part of the Bill as being one of As other noble Lords have made the constitutional those ideas which starts with good intent but has risks points most effectively, I wonder whether I could raise attached to it: it is the law of unintended consequences. just an administrative question with the Minister. It I can understand that those who have looked at the seems to me surprising that the Government should appointment of senior judiciary and have seen the propose such a potentially flexibly arrangement for absence of women, for example, have thought that the Lord Chancellor in relation to these very senior perhaps if somebody—the Lord Chancellor—were sitting appointments as it seems to be the Lord Chancellor’s on that panel, he would be able to represent more personal choice whether he takes part in a selection vociferously public concerns about the way in which panel or not. As far as I can make out from reading appointments are recreating the same people. I can see the Bill, this may mean that he decides to sit on that that was the intention of giving a role to the Lord appointment body “A” but not on appointment body Chancellor in the current appointment procedures. 257 Crime and Courts Bill [HL][LORDS] Crime and Courts Bill [HL] 258

[BARONESS KENNEDY OF THE SHAWS] I believe that those were the words of the noble and However, we must be very conscious of the risks. learned Lord, Lord Woolf— We should be concerned about the way in which this “and partly to enable the Lord Chancellor better to defend the could be detrimental to our constitutional arrangements judges from attack by taking responsibility for the system which and could be the beginning of a much more politicised appointed them”, role for the Secretary of State as Lord Chancellor which I believe were the words of the noble and sitting on such committees. I say this because, regarding learned Lord, Lord Falconer. The issue then is the the slide to such things, we always say, “Oh, it could extent to which the independence of the senior judiciary not happen here”. I have just heard the decision made will be compromised if the Lord Chancellor sits as a in Europe today that the new judge to be appointed to non-chairing, non-voting member of the selection the European Court of Human Rights will not be the commission. We are talking of two instances only. We preferred candidate coming forward from Britain. The are talking of the positions of the President of the person appointed was pushed by the Conservatives in Supreme Court and the Lord Chief Justice. Europe and supported by Russia and Serbia. The best Six years to evaluate the current system is a very candidate, Ben Emmerson, one of our most distinguished short time—I am talking about the six years since the human rights lawyers, did not get that role because of Constitutional Reform Act—but, in the longer term, a politicking of the ugliest kind. He was considered to given Lord Chancellor may wish to exercise the right be too protective of human rights. to reject or ask for reconsideration of a nomination. We should be ashamed of what has happened in We also need to remember, in that context, that this that appointment process and we should be aware of Lord Chancellor, whoever he or she may be, will get what happens when politics enters the fray in judicial only one name coming forward. He will not have a appointments and how it can often lead to unsatisfactory choice of three candidates, hierarchically or non- outcomes. I raise this as a warning because it happens hierarchically ordered, and make a judgment as to all too easily. The best candidate has been lost to the which of those two or three might be the best candidate. European Court of Human Rights and it has happened He will have the very stark choice indeed of exercising because of an ugly form of politicking. the nuclear option—rejection—and I suggest that, as things stand under the Constitutional Reform Act, it would be virtually impossible to exercise that nuclear option. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, Baroness Falkner of Margravine: My Lords, I fear himself explained to the House that you have to give that I will be in a minority of one, which is always a your reasons in writing for doing so. rather brave position, but it is important to put another perspective. That is what the House of Lords is very good at, so I rise to put that other perspective. 5.15 pm The Government’s position is essentially about whether Baroness Prashar: To describe the question of rejection the so-called nuclear option is the way forward or, as I or reconsideration as “the nuclear option” is not really would put it, whether the power to reject after the appropriate because it is part of the process. I would process, or influence, is the right way forward. I should use the word influence. In fact, the Lord Chancellor have declared at the outset that I, too, am a member of has the opportunity to discuss the process, is consulted the Constitution Committee, but I was not a member at appropriate times during the process and is able to when its most excellent report on judicial appointments give a view of the kind of person he or she would like. came out earlier this year. So it is not right to call it a nuclear option. He has the I note the Constitution Committee’s recommendations opportunity to be involved and have a say in the in this regard. It states that the Lord Chancellor’s process. inclusion on a selection commission risks politicising the process, an argument which we have heard today. I draw noble Lords’ attention to the text of that report, Baroness Falkner of Margravine: I am afraid that, which shows that the committee’s witnesses were in unusually, I have to disagree with the noble Baroness, two camps; it was not a straightforward matter even at Lady Prashar. It is widely referred to as a nuclear the time. There were those who thought that the option—we could call it the veto, perhaps, but it is current system was the only way to preserve the very well known that it is a veto and a very final kind independence of the judiciary and there were those of veto, in that not only does one exercise the veto—if who believed that the political angle was invariably one chooses to do so—but one has to give reasons in part of the greater balance of considerations. Among writing for arriving at that decision. It is a very tough those who felt that the Lord Chancellor should have position to take. The pool from which the candidate an increased role were Lord Justice Goldring, Jack would be drawn is so small and so intimately known to Straw MP, a former Lord Chancellor, and the noble one another—the judges of the Supreme Court, for and learned Baroness, Lady Hale. example—that a rejection would be known and would, indeed, indicate a significant level of political interference. Even when resisting greater involvement, the It would inevitably get out that a veto had been Constitution Committee states at paragraph 25 of its exercised and people would draw their own inferences report that it is important to maintain the connection as to what had happened. I suggest that that would between Parliament, the Executive and the judiciary indicate a huge level of political interference. It would partly so that, probably leak to the media; there would be wide “the government cannot entirely wash their hands of what is speculation in and around the legal profession. It happening”— would truly be seen, I am afraid, as a nuclear option. 259 Crime and Courts Bill [HL][27 JUNE 2012] Crime and Courts Bill [HL] 260

The reality of this provision is that it gives power to been there and heard the argument why the majority several other entities, but not to the individual who is, of the commission wanted to go in a certain direction in the words of the Constitution Committee report, at and would therefore have to suck it and see. On that paragraph 26, responsible and, basis, I have a lot of sympathy with the Government “accountable to Parliament for the overall appointments process”. on the amendment.

Baroness Butler-Sloss: Taking up what the noble Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, going back Baroness, Lady Prashar, said, as I understand it this is some 25 years, I remember being warned in 1987: not just a question of a name going to a Lord Chancellor “You realise, don’t you, that Mrs Thatcher has never who has no idea what has gone on before. If there was appointed anybody as a High Court judge who has to be the slightest doubt that this candidate was not been overtly political?”. I was about to stand for the suitable, there would have been enormous discussions 1987 election. I stood; I lost for the eighth time; but at a much earlier stage. It is almost inconceivable that that did not dissuade me. My point is that then, how somebody would go forward who was known to have the system worked was completely opaque. You did reasons for not being acceptable and unless those not know what recommendations were being made. reasons are such that the Lord Chancellor felt that he You did not know when you had scored a black mark. could say that, they ought to have been known already. I recall a close colleague once seeing his file in the This does not work in isolation; the judges and the Lord Chancellor’s Department, which said in terms Lord Chancellor discuss a large number of matters that he had fought and lost eight elections as a Liberal extremely carefully over quite a long time. There is no candidate—he was so close a colleague that he had isolation of the Lord Chancellor and his team from been mixed up with me. I am sure that that held him the senior judiciary and the appointments commission back for a long time from obtaining the appointment which is discussing this. I think that the noble Baroness that he ultimately did. is assuming that the Lord Chancellor is in an ivory I was slightly shocked to hear that we still have a tower, not knowing anything until the name comes to non-transparent system whereby the Lord Chancellor him. That is not the position. is consulted and becomes involved in the appointment of judges, although there is nothing formal about it. I Baroness Falkner of Margravine: I say to the noble did not know that. It is opaque. The Bill makes it and learned Baroness that if that non-transparent absolutely transparent that the Lord Chancellor will play process that she describes, which sounds like the old a part, and I think it is very good that he should. He game of clubbing together to fix it all up, is indeed should listen to other people who are high in the accurate, there should be no reason for the amendment. profession and to what a lay person thinks of a In that case, if it is all so chummy, why not have the particular appointment. His view may change. I do Lord Chancellor sit on the panel? not think that the Lord Chancellor would necessarily The power to veto seems to contradict Section 3(6)(a) dominate such a selection committee, certainly not if of the Constitutional Reform Act 2005, which places he has a political angle. There may be a toing and a statutory duty on the Lord Chancellor to defend the froing of views within that committee but we will independence of the judiciary. Not for the first time, know that it is happening because he is on it. Consequently one part of an Act—the duty to defend the independence it will be a far more satisfactory system than what we of the judiciary—sits uneasily with the process as have heard is happening now: the Lord Chancellor, defined. Moreover, the process requires the Lord without it being in any statute, is involved in some Chancellor to put his reasons in writing. I have already way. That is wrong and I think that the Bill is preferable. commented on that. It would be far better in increasing transparency and enhancing accountability for the Lord Lord Falconer of Thoroton: I was rather appalled by Chancellor to be a member of the selection commission the mischaracterisation by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas —listening, participating and evaluating the candidate of Gresford, of what the noble and learned Baroness, being questioned, without a veto over the appointment— Lady Butler-Sloss, said. My experience as Lord Chancellor, than, after the fact, disagreeing with the selection when not making the appointments, was that I remained commission. regularly in touch with the judiciary. If I had not In conclusion, I touch on the point made that either remained regularly in touch with the judiciary on a very powerful Lord Chancellor would sit on the issues such as the funding of courts and the difficulties commission panel and influence it to go in the direction that the judges were facing, I would have regarded that he wanted; or, if the Government got their way, myself as not performing my job as Lord Chancellor that the Lord Chancellor, having sat on the selection correctly. If you are a Lord Chancellor—or now, panel, could not persuade the panel of his views on an Secretary of State for Justice—who does not know the individual candidate and would be deeply dissatisfied leadership of the judiciary, that would be a very bad because he did not carry the selection panel with him. thing. Indeed this idea expressed by the noble Lord, I argue that his potential for dissatisfaction would Lord Thomas of Gresford—that it is in some way a be greater if he had not exercised the veto and was sort of secret-sounding basis—is wrong. I am sure therefore stuck with someone he found it difficult to that his misunderstanding was not deliberate. He was work with. In fact, it could be said that he would take looking back to a time 20 years ago when he was greater responsibility for working with a candidate looking for a position. with whom he did not entirely agree if he were on the This side of the House supports the amendment selection panel and had been overruled. He would tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. We earnestly have been part of the decision-making, he would have ask the Government to think again about this provision. 261 Crime and Courts Bill [HL][LORDS] Crime and Courts Bill [HL] 262

[LORD FALCONER OF THOROTON] of Ken Clarke as Lord Chancellor. For example, there Perhaps I may explain why we take that view. The is the example given by the noble Baroness, Lady basis of the settlement reached and approved in the Kennedy of The Shaws: “I don’t want the best lawyer; Constitutional Reform Act 2005 was that the time had I want the person who is most against the Human come for the appointment of judges to be clearly Rights Act”. That is a perfectly conceivable position depoliticised. The justification for the process that for a Lord Chancellor to take. then existed was that although the Lord Chancellor was Labour or Tory and appointed by the Prime 5.30 pm Minister, he nevertheless had especial independent The noble Baroness, Lady Falkner of Margravine, roles that made it possible for a political appointment says: “Oh well, let’s make it all more transparent”. She to appoint the judiciary. was not listening to the detailed evidence given to the We in the then Government took the view, supported Constitution Committee—actually, she may not have by the Liberal Democrats and endorsed by both Houses been on the committee, so I withdraw my suggestion of Parliament, that in a period of time and a generation that she was not listening—about the occasion when where people had to have complete confidence that my successor specifically objected to the appointment the judiciary was not being appointed on a political of a particular head of division where he had a veto. I basis, there needed to be a structure in which people am not going to go into the detail of the case but it would have confidence that you were appointed on was transparent, and the views of the appointment your merits as a respected judge. That was the basis of panel eventually prevailed. What was absolutely clear the constitutional settlement reached. Those who was that there was an independent process judging considered it in detail were of the view—and I agreed who was the best among the candidates, with absolutely with this view—that the state, the Executive, had to no political interference of any sort. The Lord Chancellor have a stake in the appointment of judges so that there expressed a view, there was then a discussion that was was part of the Executive in Parliament that would recorded in correspondence and the original view defend the system and defend the appointments. That prevailed—absolute transparency. The noble Baroness is why the Lord Chancellor has the power to veto suggests, “Oh, let leaks and newspapers provide the some appointments and to reject others. transparency”. Sorry, she disagrees; what was being suggested? It is incredibly important for the standing of the judiciary and the separation of powers that that essential Baroness Falkner of Margravine: That is absolutely separation—that essential constitutional settlement—not not what I said; that is a mischaracterisation entirely. I be affected. The proposal made by the coalition goes said that if a Lord Chancellor exercised a veto and right to the heart of that constitutional settlement. rejected a candidate and, as he would have to, gave his Bringing the Secretary of State into the process would reasons for doing so in writing, given that it is such a not even have the redeeming feature of the old-style small and intimate community, not only would everyone Lord Chancellors, which is that they had an independent else know that this had happened but inevitably it role as a judge as well as being a politically appointed would leak into the legal papers. That is what I was Minister. What Ken Clarke said about his role—my saying. I was not saying that the transparency would noble friend Lady Jay has quoted it—exactly reflects come from the leak but that huge damage would be what the constitutional settlement envisaged; namely done by that happening. that he should be a member of the Cabinet with a particular statutory duty as imposed in Section 1, but Lord Falconer of Thoroton: As I understand it, the essentially a political Minister without anything else noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, is saying that gossip to distinguish him from other Ministers in the would be the way that transparency would come. No? Government. The two roles that we are talking about Explain again. here are the president of the Supreme Court and the Lord Chief Justice. The president of the Supreme Baroness Falkner of Margravine: Forgive me. I am Court is probably the most important judge for the describing what could potentially happen; I am not whole of the United Kingdom. The Lord Chief Justice saying that that would be transparent. All I am trying is undoubtedly the most important judge for England to say is that very few vetoes are exercised. There are and Wales. vetoes in other positions as well—the Prime Minister The proposal envisages that the commission appointing has the power of veto over several other appointments, the president of the Supreme Court should consist of for example—but apparently they are seldom used; I one person who is not legally qualified, one judge of could find the figures for the noble and learned Lord. I the court, one member of the Judicial Appointments think that one of the reasons why they are so infrequently Commission for England and Wales, one for Scotland used is the damage that it might do if it got out that and one from Northern Ireland, and, if he chooses, they had been used. the Lord Chancellor. I know Ken Clarke well and admire him greatly. I have absolutely no doubt that, in Lord Falconer of Thoroton: I think that there is a a group such as that, he would have no difficulty in misunderstanding here. As I understand it, the noble ensuring that his choice was obtained. The noble Baroness is saying that when the veto is used it is kept Lord, Lord McNally, is shaking his head, but I tell secret. It is not, so there is no question of gossip. The noble Lords that Ken Clarke’s choice would prevail. Lord Chancellor is willing to use that veto where It would not just be a matter of appearance; it would appropriate. I have no problem with that and it does be a matter of actuality. Go forward in time and not cause difficulty. In the proposed system, there imagine someone not of the ethical quality and standard would be no transparency about the role that the 263 Crime and Courts Bill [HL][27 JUNE 2012] Crime and Courts Bill [HL] 264 political Minister had played; indeed, it would be that the Minister reconsiders the Government’s position assumed that he or she was the person who had on this, and the Lord Chief Justice’s position. It would dominated the process. It would profoundly undermine be a really bad idea if people thought that a Conservative the settlement. At the moment, I can see no benefit or Labour Secretary of State for Justice, not the Lord from it. I have not had the pleasure and privilege of Chancellor, had appointed the Lord Chief Justice and reading the letter that was sent to the noble Baroness, the president of the Supreme Court. Lady Prashar. I have heard the speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, which was very persuasive in The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord many respects. However, I am unable at the moment to McNally): My Lords, I am grateful to those who have see the basis for departing from a constitutional settlement taken part in this, which is an interesting and important that is intended to ensure the sanctity of the process. It debate on a very important constitutional issue. I am is an independent process in which one is judged on not sure that I share the analysis of these proposals. one’s merits, and it keeps politics out of it except for As I said before, the Lord Chancellor is determined to the exercise of a transparent veto. defend the separation of powers and the independence of the judiciary. We are committed to the constitutional Lord Thomas of Gresford: Would the noble and settlement that was brought in by the noble and learned learned Lord not agree that it was not the best moment Lord, Lord Falconer, when he was in office. But, as I in the appointment of the judiciary, and that it does said earlier, we are making proposals which, with the appear that political influences were coming into the passage of time, improve on that settlement. The question of who was to be appointed? Would it not debate today is part of that. have been better for the difficulties and the problems Interestingly enough, I was flicking through Hansard between the Lord Chancellor and the appointments for Monday evening. The noble and learned Lord is commission to have been sorted out in a committee, always passionate and eloquent, but he was particularly such as that proposed in this Bill? passionate and eloquent then. He was urging us not to take the Executive out of decisions on appointments Lord Falconer of Thoroton: Game, set and match to in the lower courts. Well, that is what it says. this side. As I understand it, the noble Lord is asking whether it is so wrong that people might think that Lord Falconer of Thoroton: Can I answer that? political influences have been brought to bear on the appointment, because the Lord Chancellor, performing Lord McNally: Yes. Perhaps the noble and learned a constitutional role, says explicitly “I don’t want”, or Lord would like to turn to column 112 of the Hansard “I am thinking of vetoing”, the choice that has been of 25 June when, as I say, he was quite passionately made on legal merits. As I understand it, the noble making the case for the Executive being involved. Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, and the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner of Margravine, are saying, “Let’s keep Lord Falconer of Thoroton: Indeed I was. The noble all the political influences secret”. The noble Lord is Lord, Lord McNally, was agreeing with me that the shaking his head; I am not sure what he has in mind. way you do it is to have an independent process of appointment which the Executive must endorse, or Lord Thomas of Gresford: I am not saying that. I not, so that there is somebody responsible in Parliament am saying that had the Lord Chancellor been able to to defend it. Does the noble Lord agree with that discuss in a committee—such as that is proposed—the approach? merits of the particular candidate, we would not have had something which did not do the judiciary any good. Lord McNally: The noble and learned Lord was saying that the Executive should be kept in the process. Lord Falconer of Thoroton: If the Lord Chancellor The noble and learned Lord is marvellous; he spends said “I want this candidate” and persuaded everybody, half his interventions twisting the words of people none of that would have been apparent. People would who disagree with him, and when anybody tries to put doubt the independence of the appointment from the him right, he starts protesting. political situation, or the political influences on the Of course the Lord Chancellor is accountable to position. Do not be under any illusion; if the Lord Parliament. That is central to the settlement. He is Chancellor proceeds with this proposal, those people responsible to the public for the overall process of who have had dealings with the constitutional settlement judicial appointments and the effective working of the will think that he is, without properly understanding judicial system. It is important, at this very senior level it, going against the basis of the constitutional settlement of the judiciary, that as well as possessing first-rate which the noble Lord, Lord McNally, worked so hard judicial skills, candidates for the leadership roles are to get through. As he said on Monday, the noble Lord, alive to the management and administrative issues Lord Goodhart, was one of the main Liberal Democrat that affect the administration of justice and are able to architects of the constitutional settlement, as was, as work with the Government on developing the system. he also acknowledged on Monday, the noble and learned This is an area where the view of the Lord Chancellor Lord, Lord Woolf. What on earth is the reason for so is likely to be of particular importance. This is therefore undermining the political independence of the judiciary? a legitimate role for the Lord Chancellor to play in the For these reasons we support the amendments that most senior judicial appointment. are being made. If, as I think is unlikely, they are put to I know that the noble and learned Lord has a kind the vote today, we will support them. I earnestly ask of sense of ownership of the constitutional settlement. 265 Crime and Courts Bill [HL][LORDS] Crime and Courts Bill [HL] 266

Lord Falconer of Thoroton: I am happy to change it. administration of justice, the most appropriate way of achieving this input is to allow the Lord Chancellor to Lord McNally: Well, if he is happy to change it, perhaps sit on the panels. He can then consider the views of he will listen to the argument for making just the other panel members, submit his own views and engage smallest tweak in the perfect construction that he left with the panel members in a meaningful discussion for us. That means that it should be balanced appropriately about candidates. against judicial and lay input into the process. It should The current system allows the Lord Chancellor to respect, as I have said, the independence of the judiciary. veto a selection panel’s recommendations. This is in itself a major role, but may be viewed as something of Lord Falconer of Thoroton: Lay input is how you a nuclear option—that is what it says in my briefing get management experience, I agree. What is wrong notes. I think that that option is the one that could with the non-legally qualified person, the member of only be used in exceptional circumstances and with the Northern Ireland commission, the member of the potentially a heavy price for the relationship with Scottish commission and the member of the English the judiciary and perception of political interference. commission? There is a quite substantial balance of I do not necessarily agree that these perceptions lay people already. would be justified, but they are certainly factors which would inhibit the use of the veto. In place of the veto, Schedule 12 provides for a more effective Lord McNally: We had a very vigorous discussion engagement. about this when we had a second go in front of the A fear has been expressed that this would give the Constitution Committee. Looking at those three top Lord Chancellor disproportionate influence and that jobs—the presidency, the Lord Chief Justice and the the present Lord Chancellor would dominate the Lord Chancellor—I was struck by the fact that it is proceedings. Perish the thought. Being on the panel, not just judicial excellence but a whole fingertip or even having that Lord Chancellor on the panel, interrelationship that makes those three jobs work. would not necessarily mean that the Lord Chancellor That is why the Lord Chancellor is arguing, and I am would ultimately get his way on the individual appointed, convinced of this—it is not just a matter of me saying, but it would mean that he would have the opportunity “The Government believe”—that an input into the to be engaged in the process and make his views known selection process at the selection board— to the other panel members. We are talking about a panel of heavy hitters—a lay chair, plus senior members Lord Woolf: I speak as one of the three the Minister of the judiciary and appointment commissioners who refers to. Does he not agree that there is a danger of are strong and independent-minded individuals. They those three being too cosy? That would be in a situation will not simply fall into line with the Lord Chancellor where they do not feel that they can take a separate of the day. The Lord Chancellor would have an line from the Lord Chancellor, who controls the resources opportunity to make his case but could also be persuaded and is particularly powerful. All I can say is that if he of a contrary case by other panel members. However, does take that view, he should remember that my very where the Lord Chancellor does make a persuasive distinguished predecessor, on one particular occasion, case of the merits of a particular candidate, this could refused to see the Home Secretary of the day and the be weighed in the balance in the same way by other Home Secretary was deeply offended. That was because panel members. he did not think much of that sort of cosiness, which I There are, of course, other possible ways of securing know to the Minister is very attractive. With my experience, the input of the Lord Chancellor, but we do not consider I am bound to say that he is wrong. He should that any are as effective as our proposal. We could, for listen; there are times to be cosy and times not to be example, allow the Lord Chancellor to select a candidate cosy. That is something that needs to be taken into from a shortlist, or through some form of parliamentary account. hearing. However, we consider that the risk of politicisation of the process from these options is far 5.45 pm more acute. Lord McNally: This is my problem as a simple lad Another option would be to consult the Lord dealing with these Silks. I have never used the word Chancellor at the start of the process. There is nothing “cosy” about the relationship. I have had a chance wrong with that, but we consider that this is not as look at the relationship in the last two years; the last effective as having the Lord Chancellor be a member way I would describe the relationship between the of the panel and be able to put forward his views, Lord Chancellor, the noble and learned Lord, Lord listen to the views of others and engage with them in a Judge, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Phillips, meaningful way. is “cosy”. It is businesslike; it is working; but it has an interrelationship which I think is important. Baroness Butler-Sloss: I wonder whether the Minister Giving the Lord Chancellor a role in these could answer a point that he has not yet answered, appointments is not new. As has been said, he already which has been made by several people. There is a has a role in deciding whether to accept or reject the perception that if the Lord Chancellor is on the panel, recommendation of a selection panel. The question is, the appointment will be politicised. For those who do therefore, how should that input be realised? I understand not know the process but see that the Lord Chancellor the different views put forward in the debate, but the has been one of those who has appointed the Lord Government’s view is that, for these two most senior Chief Justice, there will be a perception, certainly appointments, given their significant role in the among lawyers and much more widely, that the Lord 267 Crime and Courts Bill [HL][27 JUNE 2012] Crime and Courts Bill [HL] 268

Chancellor has had a very large part to play in making this subdued and reticent member of the panel, could that person the Lord Chief Justice and that it would feel that it is wrong. What, then, are the prospects for be the sort of person who would suit him. effective working between them?

Lord McNally: I was about to come to the interventions Lord McNally: Quite often in politics, in the law of the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, and in other parts of life, one finds oneself working and the noble Baroness, Lady Prashar. I do not think with someone whom you do not particularly like. The that my noble friend Lady Falkner got it wrong at all, difference this time is that there would be no political despite her being bullied by the noble and learned veto to that committee’s decision. It is worth putting Lord, Lord Falconer. on record that this would be a Lord Chancellor withdrawing his veto from those appointments. Yet, Lord Falconer of Thoroton: I apologise to the noble with his silken sophistry, the noble and learned Lord, Baroness, Lady Falkner of Margravine, who I have Lord Falconer, implies that this is an extension of never thought of as someone who it was possible to political power. It is just the opposite of the extension bully. However, if the noble Lord, Lord McNally, was of political interference. under that impression, that just goes to show how wrong perceptions can develop. Lord Falconer of Thoroton: I was not implying it; I was saying it expressly, because that is plainly what is Lord McNally: Turning to the other noble Baronesses, happening. to get them going as well, there did seem to be a suggestion of, “Don’t worry, because the present system Lord McNally: It is simply not true, and anyone already has the nudges, nods and winks that will who is looking at this sees that it is a move away from a get”— politician being able to exercise a veto to a politician transparently taking part in a process. If the Members of this Committee cannot see that, we will presumably Noble Lords: Oh! withdraw it or take it back.

Lord McNally: We will all read Hansard. Come on. Lord Beecham: What, in the experience of the past seven years, has revealed defects in the present system? Baroness Prashar: I do not want to go into detail but, as the noble Lord knows, I had the privilege of Lord McNally: It has been the feeling that the being involved in some of these selection processes. retention of a veto in this matter was keeping in the When a selection panel is set up, there is a proper, political process. transparent way of consulting at the appropriate time. There were no nudges and nods. In my initial submission, Lord Falconer of Thoroton: So why is a veto being I said that I think that the present system works kept for every other member of the Supreme Court, because, if there is a rejection or a reconsideration, it every member of the Court of Appeal and every focuses the mind and is done in an open way. It is the member of the High Court? inability of the people to be discreet that muddies the water. It is a most gossip-ridden world. In other Lord McNally: I have explained before that this worlds, when appointments are made, people respect unique triumvirate is very important, and that that is confidentiality. However, the process was very open why we have adopted a very distinctive way of making and transparent. Therefore, there is no question of this selection. I am not sure how far I can take the nudges and nods. Committee, except perhaps to read from the letter that I wrote to the noble Baroness, Lady Jay, which the Lord McNally: If it is such a gossip-ridden world, noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, said he had the better it would be to have the Lord Chancellor not had the pleasure of sharing. In that letter I said: fully and transparently in the process. I am afraid that “At the present the Lord Chancellor decides at the end all that one can say is that strong opinions are held. of the selection process whether to accept or reject the name put forward by the panel or to ask for the panel’s Baroness Jay of Paddington: I am a non-lawyer decision to be reconsidered. In practice, under these who, I am glad to say, was not part of the constitutional current arrangements it may be difficult to make use settlement in 2005. If the noble Lord described himself of the veto in these high-profile cases without risking disingenuously as a simple lad, I am even worse as a perception of politicisation of the process. This difficulty simple laddess. I am trying to get a vision of this was acknowledged by Lord Phillips and others in their construct that the Minister has explained of either my evidence to your committee”—that is, the committee noble and learned friend Lord Falconer or the present of the noble Baroness, Lady Jay. “The Government holder of the office of Lord Chancellor, the right therefore considers that allowing the Lord Chancellor honourable Kenneth Clarke, being subdued members to sit on the panel will enable his accountability to be of a totally egalitarian panel on which the merits of exercised in a more direct and effective way. You will, the candidates are discussed in a constructive and of course, be aware that the Lord Chancellor’s involvement totally relaxed way, and the subdued and reticent Lord as a member of the selection panel was supported in Chancellor finds himself in a minority. Should the evidence to the Constitutional Committee by both the panel recommend that Judge X becomes a member of Lord Chief Justice and the president of the UK Supreme the Supreme Court, the Lord Chancellor, having been Court”. So I am not isolated in this view. 269 Crime and Courts Bill [HL][LORDS] Crime and Courts Bill [HL] 270

Lord Goodhart: My Lords, is it not more difficult undoubtedly be a chairman or chairwoman of distinction for the Lord Chancellor to object to someone publicly and merit who had experience in these matters. rather than to discuss the appointment in a group of which he is a member? Does that not mean, therefore, Lord Woolf: Might I suggest the former chairman that if the Minister tries to remove the person, he will of the commission, who is present here today. do so only if there is very strong evidence to show that it is an unsatisfactory appointment, whereas if he is part of a group, the other members of the group might Lord McNally: I saw her shifting slightly and thought be more likely to go along with what the Minister says she was going to volunteer to come back to the job. at that point? Baroness Prashar: I thank the Minister for giving Lord McNally: I have to say that if I was a member way. I now want to turn to another point on which I of a body charged with selecting a Lord Chief Justice and the noble Baroness, Lady Jay, asked a question. or a president of the Supreme Court, no Lord Chancellor, The provision states that the Lord Chancellor “may” however strong willed, would make me change my views sit on the panel. If that is the case, on what basis will unless his arguments were extremely persuasive; and I he decide to sit on the panel? If he decides to do so, would expect the same respect for my views. We are will that not send a different signal? Will it not suggest not talking about a group of pussycats; we are talking that there is a reason why he wants to sit on the panel about some very senior figures with great experience. I or a reason why he decides not to do so? I think that can see that those who have attended this Committee that will create an unhelpful perception. do not agree, but the simple fact is that we consider that our proposals strike the right balance in providing both the legitimate accountability for the executive in Baroness Jay of Paddington: The noble Baroness, these roles and an independent and transparent process. Lady Prashar, mentioned that I also raised a point on They take away a political veto and put in its place a this matter. If the Lord Chancellor decides not to sit transparent involvement in a selection. I have set that on one of these panels, does he not retain the right of out very clearly for the Committee. veto, and that therefore the disappearance of the veto, on which the Minister has been relying so greatly, is Baroness Neuberger: I am sorry to ask the Minister not in fact universal? this, but surely the presence of the Lord Chancellor on a committee of selection is a political statement in Lord McNally: No. I am very grateful to the noble itself. It is worrying that the Minister should say that it Baroness because I should have clarified this point. removes a political presence. It just moves the position The Bill says that the Lord Chancellor “may” be a from what is a very public veto if, at the end of an member, but we intend to bring forward regulations independent process, the Lord Chancellor decides that setting out that the Lord Chancellor “will” be a member he does not wish to go along with a recommendation of the panel. This will not be able to be changed other to something that is less public but just as political. I than by a new regulation, which will be subject to find that really worrying, and I know that I am on affirmative procedures and agreement and to the record as saying that it is a constitutional disgrace. agreement of the Lord Chief Justice and the president 6pm of the Supreme Court. Lord McNally: That is the noble Baroness’s opinion, but, again, she is suggesting words that I never used. I Lord Falconer of Thoroton: I would be rather averse, did not say a “political presence”. What I said was as would this House, to the constitution being changed that, to me, the political veto was the intrusion into the in this way by regulations. process. It has been acknowledged by a number of contributors that if the Lord Chancellor is not in this Lord McNally: I take note of what the noble and narrow world where the decision and the selections are learned Lord says. I am merely saying what the intention made, he will be the elephant in the room. This process is. Clearly— gives the Lord Chancellor the chance to have an input in a selection but, as opposed to what the noble Baroness, Lady Neuberger, suggested, he will not have Lord Falconer of Thoroton: I say that it is a deceptive a veto. When the panel makes its decision, there will be question for the reasons that underlay the question of no political veto. I should have thought that that my noble friend Lady Jay. We thought that sometimes would be welcomed by this Committee. you would and sometimes you would not, but apparently you are always going to be a member of the panel. Lord Martin of Springburn: Perhaps I may ask the Minister about one point on which I would like Lord McNally: There is no deception; I have nothing clarification. It has been fascinating to listen to both up my sleeve. sides of the argument. The Minister mentioned a lay chairman or chairwoman. From what walk of life would a lay chairman or chairwoman come? Baroness Butler-Sloss: I am sorry—this is only my second intervention but it is my last one. Something as Lord McNally: I shall have to take advice on that. I important as this should not be put in a regulation. should have thought that he or she would come from Why can there not be a government amendment on the court of cardinals. I am not sure, but it would Report so that we know where the Government stand? 271 Crime and Courts Bill [HL][27 JUNE 2012] Crime and Courts Bill [HL] 272

Lord McNally: I shall take that question back. In He may have some knowledge that does not involve the mean time, the Government’s case has been set the politics of the matter and that would persuade the out. The trouble with the noble and learned Lord, other members of the commission, but I do not think Lord Falconer, is that he listens only to himself and is that he would persuade them on political grounds, then convinced by all the arguments that he hears. I which is what the noble and learned Lord, Lord have listened to others in the Committee. We are in the Falconer, said. He nods. Perhaps he was a very persuasive debt of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, for stimulating Lord Chancellor in private. such a debate. However, if he wants to divide the Committee, I am reasonably confident that he will Lord Falconer of Thoroton: Under the new system, lose. I would have the power. That is the point.

Noble Lords: Oh! Lord Thomas of Gresford: He had the veto, although I do not think that he ever exercised it. Lord McNally: Try me. I think that the issues that have been raised are such that it would be better to Lord Falconer of Thoroton: I never exercised the have another run at them on Report. veto, although my successor considered it and everything was open. Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, before the Committee sat I informed the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, Lord Thomas of Gresford: Why did he exercise it? that I was fairly relaxed and neutral about his amendment. We do not know. Did he say so at the time? He did not However, the more I have listened to the argument, say, “For political reasons I do not want that person as the more I have come down on the Government’s the head of the division”. He did not give us his side. I recall the very unseemly row when the former reasons. It was not discussed with anybody. He just Lord Chancellor’s veto was exercised in relation to vetoed that appointment and it was unfairly damaging an appointment, and I believe that I put down a to the person concerned. Parliamentary Question. I think that he reversed his decision before I got the Answer, but I certainly tabled Lord Pannick: I am grateful to the Minister, who a Question about it. There was a furore at the Bar and says that he has been listening. I am sure that he has I was approached by many people to do what I could been, and I have listened to what he has said. I will to defend the reputation of a person who was considered certainly want to reflect, as I am sure the House will, to be the best judge in a particular division. It was on what the Minister described as a very important extremely unseemly and the Lord Chancellor backed debate—and he is right. This goes to the heart of the down. What did that say? He had given his veto and relationship between the Executive and the judiciary. then he withdrew it and the appointment went ahead. The Minister said that it is important to keep the Lord All these matters should have been sorted out but not Chancellor in the process because the Lord Chancellor in such a public way as to damage the reputation of is responsible to Parliament and these are appointments the person concerned and damage the reputation of at the very apex of the system. The Minister is right the Lord Chancellor, if it needed to be damaged any and no one disputes that the Lord Chancellor must further. It did not resolve the situation. have a role. The question is whether that role is best I have heard the debate and, as I understand it, the fulfilled as a member of the appointments commission. Lord Chancellor does have discussions behind the The Minister and the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner scenes with the Appointments Commission. That is of Margravine, emphasised that the veto is a nuclear what was said in terms by the noble Baroness, Lady option. There are two points to make about the Lord Prashar. I do not think that that is right. I think we Chancellor’s existing powers. First, the fact that the should have an open system. She said that it was open veto is so difficult to exercise in political terms is and transparent. It was not—I did not know about it, highly material to the influence that the Lord Chancellor although I was sufficiently involved to put down a currently has. We need to be very careful about expanding Parliamentary Question about the matter in issue. the political role of the Lord Chancellor, or at least the political potential for involvement, through an Lord Falconer of Thoroton: How would the discussions appointments commission process. The second point, between the Lord Chancellor and the others members which has been made very forcefully by noble Lords of the committee that the noble Lord envisages be who know how the system works, is that the Lord transparent? Chancellor at present does not just have a veto which is difficult to exercise. He can and does make his views Lord Thomas of Gresford: The fact that it is happening known to the appointments commission during the is transparent. That is where the argument can be held process of consideration for appointment to these and not in public, which damages people’s reputations. posts. There is nothing improper or secret about that. The noble Lord said that the Lord Chancellor will It is not a question of nudges and winks. It is called always have his way. What sort of a pushover does he consultation. Plainly, the Lord Chancellor is entitled think these people in the commission are that they will to be consulted by the special appointments commission simply bow down to a political figure? I do not believe that is going to appoint to these highly important that the chairs of the Judicial Appointments Commission posts. If the current system has defects, the alternative in Northern Ireland, Scotland, England and Wales are proposed by the Government is far worse, for all the going to follow a political lead because the Lord reasons that have been pointed out, and no more Chancellor does not like someone on political grounds. transparent. 273 Crime and Courts Bill [HL][LORDS] Crime and Courts Bill [HL] 274

[LORD PANNICK] judge or chief magistrate and a deputy senior district I will certainly reflect on this debate and I am sure judge or chief magistrate. The other amendments in the whole House will want to reflect on the matter and this group, namely Amendments 119, 122, 125 to return to it on Report. I hope that the Government 130 and 133, make minor and technical changes to the will reconsider this question over the summer and I provisions in Schedule 12. I can provide further details am sure that if, as we have been told today for the first of these amendments if needed. I beg to move. time, it is the Government’s intention that the Lord Chancellor will sit on the appointments commission, Amendment 119 agreed. it is highly desirable that the Bill expressly makes that clear so that we all know what the Government intend on this matter of fundamental constitutional concern. Amendment 119A For the moment, I beg leave to withdraw this amendment. Moved by Lord Pannick Amendment 117 withdrawn. 119A: Schedule 12, page 172, line 26, at end insert— “8A Section 35(3) of the Constitutional Reform Act 2005 is repealed. Amendment 118 not moved. 8B A judge of the Supreme Court shall vacate that office on the day on which he attains the age of 75.” 6.15 pm Lord Pannick: My Lords, this amendment is in my Amendment 119 name and the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Jay Moved by Lord McNally of Paddington, and two former Lord Chancellors, the noble and learned Lords, Lord Irvine of Lairg and 119: Schedule 12, page 169, line 26, leave out “Prime Minister or” Lord Mackay of Clashfern. It concerns the retirement age for judges of the Supreme Court. The Judicial Lord McNally: My Lords, I can be relatively brief Pensions and Retirement Act 1993 lowered the retirement with this group of amendments as they are essentially age for the judiciary from 75 to 70, with an exception technical in nature. Amendment 123 modifies amendments for those first appointed to judicial office before 31 March to paragraph 11 of Schedule 12 to the Constitutional 1995. There is a strong case for raising the retirement Reform Act 2005, which concerns the appointment age back to 75 for Supreme Court judges. of the vice-chairman of the Judicial Appointments Judges are joining the Bench at a later age than Commission. As drafted, paragraph 19 of Schedule 12 their predecessors. It then takes time for them to rise to the Bill amends the 2005 Act to provide that the up the career ladder to reach the Supreme Court, Lord Chancellor may, with the agreement of the Lord typically in their early to mid-60s. Since those appointed Chief Justice, make regulations to provide for the to the Supreme Court are, by definition, the very best appointment of the vice-chairman. On reflection, while of our judges, it is particularly unfortunate that we are we continue to believe that greater flexibility is needed disposing of such valuable resources after they have for determining the composition of the Judicial served a short time in office. This argument is specific Appointments Commission, provisions about the to the Supreme Court. It is not the case that if the chairman and vice-chairman are matters which ought retirement age for Justices of the Supreme Court was to appear in the Constitutional Reform Act 2005. This to be raised to 75, the same must follow for the amendment restores the requirement that the vice- magistracy and for all levels of the judiciary in-between. chairman must be a judicial member. As now, the The fact of the matter is that judicial wisdom and vice-chairman will continue to be the most senior experience at the highest level is being lost to our judicial member of the commission. Determining which courts, although not to the field of arbitration where judge is the most senior will be done by reference to retired judges from the Supreme Court are very much regulations made by the Lord Chancellor with the in demand for much higher fees than the Lord Chancellor’s agreement of the Lord Chief Justice. department is prepared to pay. Amendment 123 also retains the current restriction There is no basis for concern that judges tend to that the vice-chairman cannot deputise for the chairman lose their mental and physical powers after the age in relation to his or her role on selection panels relating of 70 and up to the age of 75. It is important to recall to appointments to the most senior judicial offices. that these judges are not hearing exhausting witness This is because in these instances the role necessitates trials but considering stimulating points of law. Nor is a lay rather than judicial member. Additionally, the there any basis for concern that a retirement age of 75 vice-chairman will be unable to exercise the functions in the Supreme Court would result in a court that is of chairman where the function is one specified in less attuned to modern society. Experience is to the regulations to be made by the Lord Chancellor with contrary. The Appellate Committee of this House and the agreement of the Lord Chief Justice. now the Supreme Court are far more innovative than Amendment 124 amends paragraph 27 of Schedule 12 the Court of Appeal, where the average age of the to the Bill so as to add to the list of judicial appointments judges tends to be a decade younger. below the High Court for which responsibility for Nor is there any basis for concern that a retirement making a decision on a selection by the Judicial age of 75 would hinder the promotion of diversity, an Appointments Commission is to be transferred from important value that we discussed last Monday. Despite the Lord Chancellor to the Lord Chief Justice. The most of the members of the Supreme Court retiring at appointments in question are those for a senior district 75 in recent years—the same was true of the Appellate 275 Crime and Courts Bill [HL][27 JUNE 2012] Crime and Courts Bill [HL] 276

Committee—there has been a steady flow of vacancies. Lords. We would have lost the noble and learned The appointment of only one woman to the Appellate Lord Phillips, the present president of the Supreme Committee and to the Supreme Court and of no one Court, who goes at 75. He is almost the last of those from the ethnic minorities, regrettable though that is, who are entitled to stay until 75. The first solicitor to has been caused by the perceived lack of suitable get to the Supreme Court, who was of enormous value candidates and not by any lack of vacancies. Indeed, to it, left after 18 months because he was caught by increasing the age limit to 75 may well enhance the being aged 70. He was as valuable as the noble and prospects for appointing more women, as so many learned Lord, Lord Phillips, but he went at 70. female judges and lawyers have taken many years out The Supreme Court is losing people who cannot of their careers for family care reasons and may find it even get there, or who get there for 18 months if, as has more difficult than men to rise to the top by their already been said, we allow time for people to get early 60s. through the High Court and the Court of Appeal to In our report in March, your Lordships’ Constitution the Supreme Court. I think only two judges have gone Committee recommended that the retirement age be straight through and one judge came straight from the increased to 75 for Supreme Court judges and for Court Bar. Normal process means that we are losing people of Appeal judges. We advised increasing the retirement who are extremely valuable. This has been brought up age because, in Question Time on a number of occasions and the “proven judicial quality and experience are at a premium in the Government really should be looking at it. The previous development of the law”. Government were asked to look at it but, if I may say This amendment focuses only on the Supreme Court so, they pushed it to one side. It would be very good if because the arguments are especially strong at that level. this Government would take it up. I look forward to hearing from the Minister the Government’s view on this important topic. I beg to move. Baroness Bottomley of Nettlestone: This has been a most exhilarating debate. I hope that the Minister will Lord Hart of Chilton: I support the amendment for be able to use this experience to talk to other colleagues the reasons given by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. I in government about why, for example, a non-executive must declare two interests. First, I was a member of director on a board has to have annual re-election the Constitution Committee and heard the evidence once over 70. Recently, an Oxbridge college appointed and, secondly, some of my best friends are between a principal who is 72 and the articles of association the ages of 70 and 75. The evidence showed that there had to be changed. I declare an interest because the was a real risk that we were losing substantial talent late Lord Bingham’s son is the best person who works from the Supreme Court. There was one particular for me in my professional activity so I am, of course, example of losing someone just at his prime. It would brainwashed in this regard. I never thought of the be wrong for the Supreme Court to lose people of Lords as pioneers of radical equality measures but I enormous proven energy and ability when they have feel that this debate has great potential for professional just got into the driving seat of their full power, and to groups across the economy and society, and certainly lose talent of that sort when people have risen to that across government. point with only a limited time available to them in the Supreme Court itself. Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, I support the amendment for all the reasons that the noble Lord, Lord Gilbert: I hope that the Minister will explain why Lord Pannick, gave. However, I would suggest an there should be any compulsory retirement age for alternative. If we are not going to go to 75, the Justices of the Supreme Court. I see no justification alternative is to appoint judges to the Supreme Court for it. who have not gone through the processes of the High Court, the Court of Appeal and so on. We have the Baroness Jay of Paddington: My Lords, I do not power now, apparently, to appoint people to the Supreme accept my noble friend’s comments. As the noble Court who have not been in the Court of Appeal. It Lords, Lord Hart of Chilton and Lord Pannick, said, was interesting that, on Monday, the noble and learned we went into this in some detail in the Constitution Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, said, “Of course, members Committee. For all the reasons advanced very eloquently of the Supreme Court will have come from the Court by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, I support the of Appeal”. I do not think that that is necessary. I amendment, particularly because of the potential for think that the pool should be broadened. There are increasing diversity both in the Supreme Court and, people in academic life and lawyers at the Bar who indeed, further down. Both noble Lords have expressed would be appropriate as members of the Supreme the potential for opening up more opportunities for Court. The age of 70 is ridiculously low. If it is to stay people who have come through what is described as at that, people should be appointed in their 50s—early the non-conventional career path to reach the top of 50s perhaps—to the Supreme Court without having to the profession. I—and many members of the Committee go through the cursus honorum required at present. —have a personal interest in the concept that 70 is the new 50, so 75 should be the new 55. Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, I strongly support the amendment for the reasons given by the Baroness Butler-Sloss: My Lords, if 70 had been the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, the noble and learned retirement age for Supreme Court judges, particularly Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, the noble Baroness, Lady the judges in the House of Lords, we would have lost Jay, and the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford. It Lord Bingham before he even got to the House of is an important amendment on a matter that is already 277 Crime and Courts Bill [HL][LORDS] Crime and Courts Bill [HL] 278

[LORD FALCONER OF THOROTON] mandatory retirement age, if a judge beyond 70 insisted causing difficulty. The loss of the noble and learned on continuing, there would be no way of removing Lord, Lord Collins, from the Supreme Court was a him even where his colleagues considered that he was direct result of the reduction in the retiring age. The no longer quite as sharp as he used to be. Therefore, a Government now have an opportunity to do something standard retirement age, set at the right level, is needed. about that, because this is a legislative opportunity. I do not think that anybody disagrees with that principle. The Government consider that 70 is the right level. Lord McNally: My Lords, this is probably the last Indeed, this is at the higher end of international Chamber on earth where Ministers should be defending comparisons. It is also important in this context to a retirement age of 70. I have listened very carefully to consider the impact on public confidence in the justice what has been said. I understand and sympathise with system. The age of 70 strikes a balance between the some of the frustrations. The noble and learned Lord, desire of judges wishing to serve and the public interest Lord Falconer, just referred to the case where someone in sustaining a judiciary that is fully effective in discharging comes to senior judicial office for a very short term. I its responsibilities. The amendment seeks to make a also acknowledge that, in many cases, those judges special case for the Supreme Court, so that the mandatory would be able to continue beyond the age of 70 in retirement age should be increased to 75. However, the terms of their intellectual sharpness. In such cases, reasoning for the age of 70 applies to judges of the they can be a costly loss to the judiciary. I am not sure Supreme Court as it does to other judges. People are that I go as far as the noble Lord, Lord Gilbert, in people, whichever court they are sitting in. The age of advocating no retirement age at all—I have always 70 is, in our view, the right one—notwithstanding that been a strong supporter of a retirement age for this it may seem premature in individual cases. House. However, that goes into a difference issue. I see that the noble Lord is about to come up for air. The retirement age also contributes to the need to bring in newer judges. Turnover in the senior judiciary is not significant as many judges remain in post until 6.30 pm retirement. Given the statutory limit on the numbers Lord Gilbert: I am much obliged to the Minister for of judges who can sit in senior courts, in particular the making reference to my remarks. All I can say is that I Supreme Court which is limited to just 12 judges, the have listened to the debate with great care and I have opportunity to promote talented members of the judiciary not heard a single reason put forward for a retirement from the lower courts is limited. Extending the retirement age for judges. Everyone says 70, 75, 80, 85—just age to 75 in the Supreme Court would further limit picking figures out of the air. It is a nonsense. I am not movement from the Court of Appeal, which would, in a candidate for a position in the Supreme Court, but I turn, reduce opportunities for promotion to the Court see no reason at all why there should be any statutory of Appeal and have a trickle-down effect through the limit for a candidate aged over 85 like me. Could we courts. This would also have the effect of delaying have a reason? some of the positive impact on diversity, which we would otherwise see through promotions from the lower courts. Lord McNally: As I said, this is hardly the audience for arguing or expecting support for retirement at 70. Furthermore, it would be very difficult in practice Indeed, sometimes when the noble and learned Lord, to sustain a different retirement age just for the Supreme Lord Woolf, tells me about his itinerary for the following Court. Court of Appeal judges would be very likely week, I realise that his idea of retirement is something also to make the case for extended retirement. A quite different from that of most normal people. I am Court of Appeal judge who considers himself or well aware that people can make a contribution. herself a good candidate for appointment to the Supreme The amendment is astute in singling out the Supreme Court may find it difficult to accept that he or she had Court, as it is in this court—which may be the pinnacle to retire at 70 if the Supreme Court were made up of of a long career—where taking up office is more likely judges who would automatically go on for another to occur when a judge is in his or her 60s. This can give five years. If the age of retirement for the Court of rise to particularly unfortunate individual cases where Appeal were also extended, then why not the High a judge’s term of office may be rather shorter than we Court and so on? If there is a clear business need, it is would have liked to see. I understand the arguments still possible for judges to continue to serve over the and the case that has been made. However, these age of 70. Following retirement, members of the Supreme individual cases need to be balanced against the bigger Court may go on to the supplementary panel. As a picture and the advantages of a uniform retirement member of that panel, they might be asked to act as a age of 70 across the whole of the judiciary. judge of the Supreme Court. This enables the court to continue to make use of their experience and knowledge Mandatory retirement ages for judicial office-holders —but on a short-term basis. have played an important role in ensuring that the judiciary is, and is seen to be, independent. Quite I have listened to the contributions of the noble rightly, once appointed to a salaried position, it is Lords and to the plea of my noble friend Lady Bottomley difficult to remove a judge from office before retirement. against ageism. Although the Government will keep This, of course, is constitutionally correct and removes this under review, we consider, for the reasons outlined, any risk of unwarranted interference from the Executive. that the current mandatory retirement age of 70, together While many judges may be able to continue to work, with the arrangements for sitting ad hoc after retirement, and to contribute as fully as ever, beyond the age provide a careful balance between using experience, of 70, that will not always be the case. Without the ensuring that the quality of the judiciary is maintained 279 Crime and Courts Bill [HL][27 JUNE 2012] Crime and Courts Bill [HL] 280 at all levels and ensuring the advancement of fresh Lord Pannick: My Lords, Amendment 121 is another talent. I also consider that differential retirement ages amendment arising out of the report of the Constitution of different courts may be very difficult to sustain. We Committee. It has been tabled in my name and those of will keep this under review but, in the mean time, I ask my noble friend Lady Prashar, the noble Baroness, the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, to withdraw his Lady Jay of Paddington, and the noble and learned amendment. Lord, Lord Woolf. As your Lordships know from our debates on Monday, under Section 64 of the Constitutional Reform Act 2005, the Judicial Appointments Commission Lord Pannick: My Lords, I am grateful to the has a duty to, Minister for saying that he will keep this matter under “have regard to the need to encourage diversity in the range of review. I hope that that means that it will be actively persons available for selection for appointments” looked at before we return to the matter, as I am sure to the Bench. As those debates indicated, this is an that we will, at Report. My answer to the question important provision because it rightly recognises that asked by the noble Lord, Lord Gilbert, about why we the high reputation that our judiciary deservedly enjoys should have retirement age at all, is to point out the may be damaged if we do not do something about the considerable difficulty of saying that someone is passed paucity of women and members of the ethnic minorities it—particularly if they have tenure in the post. That is being appointed to judicial office. The task, as Section 64 an extremely difficult task to perform in relation to recognises, is to identify ways of bringing to the fore individuals sitting on the Bench. That is why we have a the many highly skilled women and members of the mandatory retirement age. I have no difficulty with ethnic minorities in the legal profession so that they that. As I indicated, I am concerned that the retirement can be considered for appointment on their merits. age of 70 is too high. However, I would say to the The point of this amendment is that that vital task noble Lord, Lord Gilbert, that if he looks at the New should not just be imposed on and performed by the York Times of 16 September 2010, he will see that Judicial Appointments Commission. Judge Wesley E Brown was sitting in the United States district court at the age of 103. The article describes As your Lordships’ Constitution Committee explained how a tube under his nose feeds him oxygen during in its report, the Lord Chief Justice and the Lord hearings. Sadly, Judge Brown has since died, but he Chancellor have leadership roles, the former as the did continue to an age much greater even than 75. head of the judiciary and the latter as the Minister responsible to Parliament for the appointments process. I do not accept the argument that the retirement They should each have a statutory duty to promote age needs to be mandatory across the judiciary. I would diversity. This is no criticism of the real efforts made hope that we could move to recognising the special by the current Lord Chancellor and Lord Chief Justice, position of the Supreme Court for all the reasons both of whom take this responsibility seriously.However, given by myself and other noble Lords. I certainly do they will not always be in post. We are legislating for not accept the argument that public confidence in the the future, so it is vital that the legislation should judiciary would somehow be undermined were judges identify the importance of promoting diversity and to continue to the age of 75. I am not aware of any that all those in leadership roles should have a statutory recent example of the public lacking confidence in our duty in this respect. judges on the Appellate Committee—now in the Supreme Court—because they were between the ages of 70 and The noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, 75. It has already been indicated that some of the best and the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, have tabled and most valuable work of those senior judges, led by Amendment 121AA. The noble and learned Lord will the late and much lamented Lord Bingham of Cornhill, speak to his amendment, but as I understand it, the was done between the ages of 70 and 75. That work amendment has a similar purpose and effect. It is more would be lost. detailed, and of course I will give it my support. Amendment 121A, tabled in my name and that of Nor do I accept that there is any problem about my noble friend Lady Prashar, is simply a probing new talent coming through because there are many amendment. It arises out of a concern that on the vacancies for positions in the Supreme Court. However, proper interpretation of Sections 63 and 64 of the the central point is that we are losing the best of our Constitutional Reform Act covering appointment on judges at too early an age. I hope that the Minister and merit and “Encouragement of diversity”, those provisions the Lord Chancellor will reflect on this matter over the might apply to the appointment of all other judges, summer, but in the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw but not to judges of the Supreme Court. The drafting the amendment. concern is simply that Part 3 of the 2005 Act deals separately with the Supreme Court while Sections 63 Amendment 119A withdrawn. and 64 are in Part 4. I would ask someone to give some thought to whether there is any substance in my Amendment 120 not moved. concern. There may not be and this is only a probing amendment. I am not asking the Minister to deal with this today, so perhaps he may prefer to write to me. I Amendment 121 beg to move. Moved by Lord Pannick 6.45 pm 121: Schedule 12, page 172, line 41, at end insert— “In section 64(1) (encouragement of diversity) after “under Baroness Prashar: My Lords, I support the amendment this Part,” insert “and the Lord Chancellor and the Lord Chief and that tabled by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Justice in performing their functions,”.” Falconer, and the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, because 281 Crime and Courts Bill [HL][LORDS] Crime and Courts Bill [HL] 282

[BARONESS PRASHAR] an indication of an acceptable part-time working pattern. this duty should be extended to the Lord Chancellor That is quite important. After considerable discussion, and the Lord Chief Justice. I will say at the outset that it was agreed that each circuit would make two posts I strongly refute the comments I have heard elsewhere available for part-time working. It took an enormous that this will be perceived as gesture politics. I do not amount of time to arrive at this arrangement. These think that it will be, because it is a joint endeavour. were seen as concessions to the JAC, and not a joint Promoting diversity is a matter for the Lord Chancellor effort to promote diversity. The JAC always felt that it and the Lord Chief Justice as well as the JAC. They was a tiresome body which was constantly asking for have a part to play and they need to take meaningful concessions. It should have been a joint endeavour. If action, so this duty should be extended to both of everyone had been involved and had had the same them. responsibilities, they would have given closer consideration What has been the result of this disparity? My to the JAC. experience as the chairman of the JAC was that one Other changes that the JAC proposed were rejected heard a lot of warm words, but they were not often on the grounds of so-called business needs. Business followed by purposeful action. Moreover, all the criticism needs always trumped diversity considerations, and about slow progress was directed at the JAC, which the lack of purposeful engagement was frustrating. It became a convenient fig leaf for senior politicians and was compounded by the fact that all the criticism interest groups. Too much attention was paid to the about the slow process, both by the interest groups selection process. There was an almost forensic and the politicians alike, was directed at the JAC. I examination of each stage of the process, whereas the could go on because I feel very strongly about the barriers which were outwith the responsibility of the amendment, and totally reject any assertion that this JAC received very little attention. That left the JAC is gesture politics. I very much hope that the Government exposed and some of the structural obstructions were will consider the amendment. not dealt with as speedily as they should have been. There were endless debates about the JAC’s processes Lord Deben: My Lords, I would like to continue the and a disproportionate amount of time was spent on effort that I have tried to make over past days to making minor changes to the selection process, which ensure that these decisions are not made merely by the in the long run may not have had a major impact. legal world itself. I find this debate very peculiar However, they detracted attention from the other indeed. I cannot think of a business which is worth its substantial changes for which, as I keep saying, the salt that does not insist that the chief executive has a responsibility lies elsewhere. responsibility for these matters. I sit as chairman of If the JAC drew attention to the changes that were a number of companies, and in every case I have a needed in order to widen the pool and improve diversity, personal responsibility for health and safety. I think it in my view they were not often given the consideration is important and I think that I have to take that they deserved. If there was a duty on the Lord Chancellor responsibility. The direct responsibility is for the chief and the Lord Chief Justice, they would have been executive. much more focused on them. Perhaps I may give two I know that it hurts many of a traditional kind in examples. There is the issue of non-statutory eligibility the legal profession for me to make comparisons between criteria in vacancy requests. An analysis made by the the Lord Chief Justice or the Lord Chancellor and JAC as early as 2008—I hasten to add that this was such mundane people as chairmen and managing done after the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, directors. However, it seems to me not an unreasonable had left—found that a key factor in limiting the ability parallel, and therefore I find this whole debate—as I of the JAC to make a significant contribution towards found a debate in an earlier Session—to be really improving diversity was the usual requirement for the peculiar indeed. It should be the other way round: one Lord Chancellor to stipulate in vacancy requests to should start off by saying that there are responsibilities the JAC that candidates for salaried judicial posts of this kind lying on the shoulders of those who direct should have had previous fee-paid experience. This the whole shebang. One should not go half way down was a real barrier to a large number of potential it—I am being rude now—and say, “It does not arrive candidates, such as members of the employed Bar up here, it comes down somewhere here”. One can and, of course, solicitors. The JAC argued for this repeat it, of course. It is perfectly reasonable to say, “It factor to be made “desirable” rather than “normally is also to be done here”, particularly if one has some required”. However, there was a reluctance to change. suspicion that it is not being done lower down quite as These concerns were formally raised by the JAC in well as one would like. However, one really cannot in response to the consultation on the Green Paper The any reasonable way exclude those who set the tone Governance of Britain, in 2008, after two years’ experience from issues which are the tone. of working with these requirements, by which time the I very much accept the noble Baroness’s comment commission was able to analyse their impact. I give about this not being gesture politics. It is not gesture that as an example of something that obstructed progress politics, because we are saying that we need to get rid towards diversity. of the fundamental view that merit is an easily definable Let me give another example. In 2008 an agreement thing and that it is terribly easy to say that somebody was reached that every post in the circuit Bench selection has got half a point better than somebody else. That is exercise which the JAC was due to run should be open not what happens in business. We all know that when to part-time working, but potential candidates said one looks at a number of people, one sees that they that while the commitment was welcome in principle, have differing contributions to make. One can say, it was not sufficient to encourage them to apply without “Yes, I have two people here who, on balance, both have 283 Crime and Courts Bill [HL][27 JUNE 2012] Crime and Courts Bill [HL] 284 the same contribution to make, as people”. The next entirely agree. It is a very good thing when we get some question is: what are they making a contribution to? non-lawyers reminding us, but he can be assured that One says, “Let me make an assessment of what they former senior judges support him on this. are contributing to”. If, in most cases, they are making a contribution to what I would call a community, a Baroness Jay of Paddington: My Lords, like the panel or a group, then I might say that they are equal, noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, I rise really for but that this particular person makes less of a contribution the sake of the record and because my name is on this to the whole than the other person, who would do amendment. As the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, said in more for the whole. That is the argument behind these introducing the amendment, this was one of the very elements of the Bill. strong recommendations that the Constitution Committee This is not a matter of tokenism, but a matter of made in its report on judicial appointments. The Minister reality, and it should be seen as such. If it is a matter of has referred to his kindness in coming once again to reality, it cannot be restricted to people lower down speak to the Constitution Committee between Second the pecking order. It must start with people at the top. Reading and Committee. He gave a very strong indication I therefore beg the Government not to come back with —and I do not think I say anything inappropriate—that the usual civil servant explanation to the effect that, he was favourably disposed to matters which we suggested “These people do this anyway, they are of a very high counted as leadership matters in the question of diversity. standing. We could not imagine them thinking in any He will remember the remarks he made on Monday other manner and, my goodness, why could you?”. I when we spoke again about gesture politics in relation would reply that the present Lord Chancellor is an old to another amendment, where he said that this was friend of mine and a man of impeccable standards in not about gesture politics, but about leadership and this way. However, he still ought to be under the law; it political leadership. I hope he will be consistent in his still ought to be part of the way we present it. reply on this amendment. It is really important simply to say that this is not a minor matter to be applied to people lower down, but Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, in 1997 I had a central matter to be applied from the top, because it the privilege of becoming the Solicitor-General. The is too important to be particularised. The only way first speech I made outside Parliament was in Nottingham, not to particularise it is by saying that the chaps or and the person who preceded me on that occasion was girls in charge must take this responsibility. I very Mr John Selwyn Gummer, now Lord Deben. He said much hope that on this occasion the Government will in his speech, “We are so lucky to have Charlie Falconer see that this is a very reasonable amendment, that it here. He is going to make a speech, it’ll have been could be taken without any difficulty at all, and that it written by his officials. It’ll be inspirational, but not so could in fact be seen to be valuable step. inspirational that you would want either legislative change or any additional expenditure of money”. It Lord Woolf: My Lords, just for the sake of the was exactly the same point as the noble Lord, Lord record and having put my name on this amendment, I Deben, made just now: there is an important point in make it clear that I support it for the reasons so these amendments, and there needs to be an active and admirably given by those who have spoken, including continuing role for the head of the government-end of the noble Lord, Lord Deben. If I may say so, he the story, the Lord Chancellor, and the head of the showed remarkable acuity as somebody who is not a judicial-end, the Lord Chief Justice, as well as the lawyer in contributing to this debate. head of the appointments commission, in looking at the detail of issues and actually taking active steps to Baroness Neuberger: My Lords, perhaps I may add ensure the ability to promote diversity. to the debate as another non-lawyer. Indeed, I totally I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady agree with the noble Lord, Lord Deben, and I very Prashar, for giving practical examples of what the much hope that the Government will take this on Lord Chancellor can do. The Lord Chief Justice is board. I know that the Minister has himself been able, for example, to make arrangements for working involved in the judicial diversity task force, of which conditions which will promote diversity. The Judicial the Lord Chief Justice and the Lord Chancellor are in Appointments Commission will be actively seeking to fact members. One of the criticisms that the Advisory promote diversity, all the more so now that the tie-break Panel on Judicial Diversity has made since it reported provision is likely to be in the Bill. The effect of our two years ago is that progress by that task force has in proposals is that everybody is in it together in promoting fact been remarkably slow. Although it has met, not a diversity. I very much adopt the approach of the noble great deal has happened. I know that the Minister Lord, Lord Deben: it is a basic requirement for the feels much the same. It therefore seems to me all the head of an organisation that is appointing people, more important that there be a statutory duty on the whether it be judges or any other group. I hope that Lord Chancellor and the Lord Chief Justice, as well as the Minister will feel able to embrace the basis of on the Judicial Appointments Commission, to promote those proposals. diversity. I really hope that the Government will take that on board. 7pm I agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, Baroness Butler-Sloss: As a former judge I very said in respect of his Amendment 121A. One hopes strongly support the amendment by the noble Lord, that it would apply to Supreme Court judges as well. I Lord Pannick. I would particularly like to endorse do not know what the position is, so I would like to what the noble Lord, Lord Deben, said, with which I hear what the Minister says in response. 285 Crime and Courts Bill [HL][LORDS] Crime and Courts Bill [HL] 286

[LORD FALCONER OF THOROTON] it is not necessary to rewrite them. The duty of the Whereas the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, seeks in his Lord Chancellor and the Lord Chief Justice is set out amendment to promote increasing the size of the in Section 149 of the Equality Act 2010 and provides pool, my amendment states “promote diversity”. I that a person exercising functions of a public nature have drafted it in wider terms simply because I think must have due regard to the need to eliminate that, in addition to pool issues, there will be issues discrimination, harassment, victimisation and any other about individuals. If, for example, one relaxed the conduct that is prohibited by the Act; advance equality requirements or if one were faced with a tie-break of opportunity between persons who share a relevant situation, one would be promoting diversity in relation protected characteristic and persons who do not; and to that individual without in any way trying to increase foster good relations between persons who share a the pool. I am more than happy to hear what the relevant protected characteristic and persons who do Minister has to say on that. not. I have also included in the amendment a requirement It is true that the Equality Act duties are not in the for a report to Parliament so that there is transparency same terms as the duty in Section 64 of the 2005 Act about what is going on. I have also stated that the or the proposed new duty in Amendment 121AA. duties should be renewed every five years. I have done Parts of Section 149 of the 2010 Act refer to persons so in the hope that diversity will not be the ongoing with protected characteristics. This does not have any issue that it is now. Again, however, that is a probing bearing on what steps, for example, we should take to proposal rather than a definite position. encourage more solicitors to apply for judicial office. However, it is also clear that this duty contains the key elements of advancing equality of opportunity that Lord McNally: My Lords, Amendment 121, in the we are normally concerned with when discussing diversity; name of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, would extend that is, issues of gender, race, disability and sexuality. the duty in Section 64 of the Constitutional Reform Act 2005. The duty requires the Judicial Appointments The duty of course applies to the Lord Chancellor Commission to have regard to the need to encourage not just in relation to judicial diversity but in any diversity in the range of persons available for selection functions of a public nature that he exercises. We for appointments. The amendment would extend this consider this general duty to be a better approach than duty so that it applied also to the Lord Chancellor and attempting to multiply separate legislative duties on the Lord Chief Justice. the Lord Chancellor in different areas. This debate has already given an indication of that with the various Similarly, Amendment 121AA, tabled by the noble duties proposed by different amendments. and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, introduces a new duty on the commission, the Lord Chief Justice and We are often told by this House that we overlegislate, the Lord Chancellor, albeit in slightly different terms. but there is also a tendency to want to put every Rather than a duty to encourage diversity in the range specific duty in every Bill. We endorse the Constitution of persons available for appointment, the amendment Committee’s comments on the importance of leadership sets out a duty to promote diversity in the judiciary. In and understand the reasoning behind the amendments, addition, it sets out a requirement for an annual report but we believe that the existing duties in the Equality on performance of the duty. Act 2010 are sufficient to keep us up to the mark in this context. Extending the existing duties to include The Government have given a firm commitment to both the Lord Chancellor and Lord Chief Justice improve diversity within the judiciary. We consider would add nothing of practical value in increasing the that a diverse judiciary, reflecting modern society, will diversity of the judiciary. Nor would it add anything to enhance confidence in the judicial system. However, a commitment clearly made and embedded in the Bill. we do not consider that the extension of the duty to promote diversity in Section 64 of the Constitutional Lord Deben: If it is necessary to state these things in Reform Act, or the new duty suggested by Amendment particular for some parts of the system and it is not 121AA, would make any difference in practice. thought to be otiose, why is it not necessary to do it at I understood what the noble Baroness, Lady Prashar, the top of the system and thought to be otiose in those meant when she said that these matters should not be circumstances? Either you leave it entirely and rely on turned into gesture politics. Since becoming a Minister, the general demand or you apply it to both cases. I have made it a personal commitment to attend every meeting of the judicial diversity task force in the hope Lord McNally: I will ponder on that, but I also ask that my presence will put a little speed into the process the Committee to ponder on the Pannick amendment. that we are trying to carry through. The noble Lord’s proposal to write specific responsibilities The Lord Chancellor and the Lord Chief Justice, into the Bill makes a regular appearance when we are when exercising their public functions—other than legislating—I think that it is the second time that he those relating to judicial decision-making in the case has done it anyway and that makes it regular. The of the Lord Chief Justice—are already subject to the argument is usually the same; it is a please-stop-beating- public sector equality duty under the Equality Act 2010. your-wife amendment. These duties are embedded in This means that when either is exercising public functions the Bill and in the roles of both the Lord Chancellor in relation to the judiciary, the public sector equality and the Lord Chief Justice. duty applies. I followed the intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Lord Falconer of Thoroton: The Minister is making Deben, and for a time thought that he was on my side some serious points. I am surprised by the proposition in arguing that, where responsibilities already exist, that the Equality Act would already require the Lord 287 Crime and Courts Bill [HL][27 JUNE 2012] Crime and Courts Bill [HL] 288

Chancellor or the Lord Chief Justice, for example, to Constitutional Reform Act specifies that appointment promote among young people and black and minority- must be on merit. However, other considerations apply, ethnic groups a greater willingness to apply to be in particular Section 25(8), which specifies that in lawyers, because that is partly what trying to increase making a selection the selection panel must ensure the pool involves. Is the Minister really saying that that the candidate has knowledge and experience of that obligation, to get more people to apply at a much practice in the law of each part of the United Kingdom. younger age or learn to be lawyers, is already covered As there is no reference to “solely”, we consider that by the Equality Act? there is no bar to the Equality Act tipping point applying to Supreme Court appointments without the Lord McNally: The Equality Act invites the Lord need for further legislative change. Chancellor and the Lord Chief Justice to apply the In relation to the application of Section 64 to the principles of the Equality Act to the job that they are UK Supreme Court, I have already set out the doing, which is the point that I thought that the noble commitment to encouraging diversity in the Supreme Lord, Lord Deben, was making: that if one is doing a Court, but for the reason that I have already outlined job that is covered by the Equality Act, one should be in relation to Amendment 74, I do not consider that a carrying out the responsibilities in which those duties statutory duty would add anything to this. In addition, are embedded. I think that is true. in this case any statutory duty would also need to Amendment 121A also relates to the duty in Section 64 reflect the UK nature of the Supreme Court, so the and to Supreme Court appointments. It would ensure current amendment, by placing this duty on the Lord that the Section 64 duty to encourage diversity in the Chief Justice of England and Wales and the Judicial range of persons available for selection applied to those Appointments Commission, would not be appropriate. appointments. The amendment would also provide I understand where the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, that Section 63 of the Constitutional Reform Act should and other noble Lords are coming from. We have a apply to Supreme Court appointments. This would summer to consider these things, but I also hope that have the effect that those appointments would be noble Lords who have been involved in legislation will solely on merit, that the person should not be selected know that these declaratory commitments that overlay unless he or she is of good character and that where existing commitments are not always as helpful as has two persons are of equal merit, one can be selected been suggested. I hope to assuage the concern of the over the other for the purpose of increasing diversity. noble Baroness, Lady Prashar, by saying that we will Before turning to the detail of the amendment, I look at the case that has been made this evening. As I should first say that diversity is, of course, important say, at the moment we are not minded to accept the at all levels of the judiciary, up to and including the amendments, but with the promise that this debate Supreme Court. In fact, it is particularly important at will be among my summer reading I invite the noble the higher levels, as female judges or judges from an Lord, Lord Pannick, to withdraw his amendment. ethnic minority can act as powerful role models for those at a more junior level in the judiciary. Indeed, 7.15 pm due to their higher public profile, they may also act as Lord Pannick: My Lords, that is a very disappointing a role model for younger people considering a legal or response. Promoting diversity is one of the greatest judicial career and may be a powerful symbol to the challenges facing the legal system and it is quite unacceptable public at large with regard to the perception of the that when a statutory duty to promote diversity is already judiciary reflecting our society. We are supporting imposed upon the Judicial Appointments Commission, diversity at this level in the measures that we are that same duty should not be imposed, as the noble taking in the Bill to enable flexible working arrangements Lord, Lord Deben, puts it, on those who have leadership at the highest level, including the Supreme Court. roles in the legal profession. I am not persuaded at all Turning now to the detail of the amendment, and that there are other statutory duties under the Equality starting with the application of Section 63, the objective Act, which do not seem to me to cover the same here is to apply the tipping-point provision in these ground. Indeed, if they did it is incomprehensible why cases. Section 159 of the Equality Act 2010 contains a there is a specific statutory duty on the JAC under provision to allow a person to be preferred to another Section 64. on the basis of a protected characteristic, such as gender or race, when they are equally qualified to be appointed. In relation to judicial appointments in Lord McNally: I hear the disappointment in the England and Wales, our view is that it is not clear that noble Lord’s voice. I would hate this debate to end the tipping-point provision in the Equality Act can with any idea that I personally, and the Government, apply, because Section 63(2) specifies that selection am not committed absolutely to furthering diversity in must be solely on merit. This use of “solely” may be the legal profession and the judiciary. I have said that I seen as precluding the use of the Equality Act test. will take the debate away—I may even take it to the That is why the Bill brings forward the new tipping-point individual noble Lords concerned—and consider what provision in Section 63(4) so that it can apply to we do when we come back. judicial appointments, selection for which is within the remit of the Judicial Appointments Commission, Lord Pannick: I am grateful to the Minister. I was notwithstanding the use of “solely”. about to say that I do not doubt for a moment the In relation to appointments to the UK Supreme Minister’s personal commitment to diversity. I have Court, however, there is no provision that appointment heard him speak about it on a number of occasions, must be “solely” on merit. Section 27(5) of the and he feels as passionate about it as others. The question 289 Crime and Courts Bill [HL][LORDS] Crime and Courts Bill [HL] 290

[LORD PANNICK] Lord Pannick: My Lords, I strongly support the is whether the Government’s position can move. I amendment. If we are serious about promoting diversity hope, for all the reasons that have been expressed in on the Bench, this is an area where there is real potential this debate around the House, that the Lord Chancellor to make substantial progress. That is because there is and the Minister will look at this again over the summer a pool of highly talented female lawyers and ethnic and that progress can be made. I have no doubt that if minoritylawyersingovernmentlegalservice.TheConstitution there is no progress, no movement from the Government, Committee gave the figures at paragraph 126. The the House will return to the matter on Report, but for figures are striking. In the Treasury Solicitor’s Department, now I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. more than 50% of senior civil servants are women and 15% of those at senior Civil Service pay band 1 are Amendment 121 withdrawn. from ethnic minorities. In the CPS, women form 75.9% of Crown prosecutors and 63.9% of senior Crown Amendments 121A and 121AA not moved. prosecutors. Ethnic minority lawyers form 21.7% of Crown prosecutors and 18.3% of senior Crown prosecutors. Amendment 121AB No doubt there are social and economic reasons Moved by Lord Falconer of Thoroton why so many talented female lawyers and ethnic minority 121AB: Schedule 12, page 173, line 32, at end insert— lawyers work not at the independent Bar, although “Judicial appointments many of them do, but in government legal service. I very much hope that the Government will accept the 13A After section 65 of the Constitutional Reform Act 2005 insert— amendment so that consideration can be given as to “65A Additional guidance how the legal system takes advantage of that pool of The Lord Chancellor, after consultation with the Lord Chief talent and ensures that the regrettable statistics of the Justice, the Treasury Solicitor and the chairman of the Judicial limited number of women and ethnic minority lawyers Appointments Commission, shall issue guidance as to the on the Bench can be transformed. circumstances in which those employed by the Government Legal Service, the Crown Prosecution Service or any other government legal office may apply for any of the judicial office or tribunal Baroness Prashar: I, too, support the amendment. posts, which are in the remit of the Judicial Appointments The JAC wrote to the then Lord Chancellor about this Commission.”” in 2008. If we are committed to promoting diversity, it is vital that some movement takes place. There has Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, this amendment been no progress on this over the past few years. If the seeks to probe the Government’s attitude to the responsibility was taken seriously by the Lord Chancellor, appointment of judges from the Government Legal there would have been some movement. Service, the Crown Prosecution Service and any other prosecution body in effect employed by the Government. Baroness Butler-Sloss: My Lords, I, too, support We suggest in the amendment that the Lord Chancellor the amendment. There is an overlooked pool of potential issue guidance as to the circumstances in which members future judges—or of what used to be called chairmen of any government legal office may apply for either a of tribunals, who are now judges. It is time that that judicial office or a tribunal post; those judicial offices group in government service of one form or another and tribunal posts being ones that are covered by, or was seen as a potential. The point made by the noble within the remit of, the Judicial Appointments Lord, Lord Pannick, about the numbers of both women Commission. and ethnic minorities is significant. I support the We have in mind two particular thoughts. First, amendment. members of the Crown Prosecution Service are limited from applying for judicial office because they cannot sit as recorders because they deal with crime—they Lord McNally: My Lords, I am very grateful for the cannot sit as recorders anywhere, as we understand it. amendment, because it allows me to clarify an important Are we being deprived, as a result of that perhaps area: those who work in government legal services, the unnecessary limitation? Since members of the Bar and Crown Prosecution Service and other government legal solicitors who practise in the criminal area are well offices. The intervention of the noble Lord, Lord able to sit as recorders, why should the same situation Pannick, is extremely helpful, because it puts on record not apply to those employed by the Crown Prosecution what a rich seam there is to be mined in those public Service? appointments, and counterpoints the point that I have made several times from this Dispatch Box: that the Secondly, I cannot find what, if any, the limitations public service has managed to make far more progress are that apply to people in the Government Legal in promoting diversity over the past decades than has Service applying either for part-time or full-time office the private. We may learn lessons from that. as a judge. People in the Government Legal Service are a very diverse—in the sense that we have used that The Government are keen that members of the word in this debate—group of people of very great employed legal professions should take up judicial talent who make up a pool from whom very good roles for which they are eligible, as like noble Lords, judges could be selected. I would be grateful if the we are of the view that this could be a useful route to Minister would indicate the Government’s attitude increasing diversity as well as ensuring that the towards appointments to the judiciary from prosecution Government can attract the best lawyers. services and the Government Legal Service and whether However, it has been the policy of successive Lord they intend to issue new guidance to make the position Chancellors that Crown Prosecution Service and other clear. government lawyers when holding judicial office do 291 Crime and Courts Bill [HL][27 JUNE 2012] Crime and Courts Bill [HL] 292 not sit on cases involving their department. For CPS of the Judicial Appointments Commission and everyone lawyers, this means that they cannot sit as recorders in else. I want to change that to make it clear that the the criminal courts, as the overwhelming majority of judicial members will always be in the minority. As cases are prosecuted by the CPS. noble Lords will know, no one holds the judges in Under the previous Administration, in 2003 the more admiration than me. One thing that is clear in restrictions on applications by government lawyers the current process is that the judges’ views on appointing were relaxed partially, and CPS lawyers became eligible judges are very well expressed. Part of the reason for for appointment as deputy district judges in magistrates’ having the Judicial Appointments Commission was to courts. However, this was still on the basis that they bring in other people to the appointments process. I did not sit on CPS-prosecuted cases, and therefore few would like there to be judges on the Judicial Appointments roles are available. Commission, but I would not want them to be, as it The policy is based on the need to comply with were, a blocking equality. I would be perfectly happy if Article 6 of the European Convention on Human they were in the most substantial minority. That is Rights, which provides that litigants are entitled to be what I wish to reflect in the amendment. heard in front of an independent and impartial tribunal. Given those constraints, we need to think more creatively Lord McNally: My Lords, if I could short-circuit around the concept of a judicial career and how debate on this, this is a very interesting proposal. I experience in one area can support subsequent would like to take it away, consider it and bring it back appointment to judicial office in another area. on Report. Opportunities are available for government lawyers to apply for judicial office. The published Judicial Appointments Commission programme for 2012-13 Amendment 121AC withdrawn. includes more than 300 vacancies for fee-paid office, which would be open to government lawyers to apply Amendments 122 and 123 for. It is therefore important to communicate those opportunities available to government lawyers and to Moved by Lord McNally encourage them to take up judicial roles for which 122: Schedule 12, page 174, line 35, after “3B(2)(a)” insert they are eligible—not least as this could be another “, 11” useful route to increase diversity in the judiciary. 123: Schedule 12, page 175, line 12, leave out paragraph 19 I am personally committed to playing a part in and insert— raising awareness of these opportunities. I recently “19 (1) Paragraph 11 (vice-chairman) is amended as follows. met the Treasury Solicitor to discuss the best way to (2) In sub-paragraph (1) (most senior judicial member is communicate them. I am also happy to consider any vice-chairman) for “Commissioner who is the most senior of the suggestions for changes to the current restrictions that persons appointed as judicial members” substitute “most senior apply to government lawyers to see whether we can go of the holders of judicial office who are Commissioners”. any further than the current practice—without, of (3) In sub-paragraph (2) (meaning of seniority for the purposes course, infringing the rights to an independent and of sub-paragraph (1)) for the words after “sub-paragraph (1)” substitute “seniority is to be determined in accordance with fair trial. When I met the Treasury Solicitor, I said that regulations made by the Lord Chancellor with the agreement of I was willing to write articles, go to seminars, or the Lord Chief Justice.” whatever, to raise the profile and awareness of those (4) In sub-paragraph (3) (exercise by vice-chairman of functions opportunities. As this is a probing amendment, I hope of chairman) for the words from “other” to the end substitute that the noble and learned Lord will believe that we “other than— are responding in this area and withdraw it. (a) any functions as a member of a commission convened under section 26(5) or (5A) or of a panel appointed Lord Falconer of Thoroton: I will certainly carefully under section 70(1), 75B(1) or 79(1) (including functions consider what the Minister said. At the moment, he of chairing such a commission or panel), and has given no reason why not to publish guidance that (b) any functions specified in regulations made by the Lord Parliament can consider. I invite him to consider whether Chancellor with the agreement of the Lord Chief Justice.”” guidance could be published regularly so that the issue Amendments 122 and 123 agreed. is looked at with much more of a searchlight than at the moment. I will consider what the Minister said, in exchange for him agreeing—he is nodding—to consider Amendment 123A not moved. what I said. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 121AB withdrawn. Amendment 124 Moved by Lord McNally Amendment 121AC 124: Schedule 12, page 177, line 21, at end insert— Moved by Lord Falconer of Thoroton “Senior District Judge (Chief Magistrate) designated under section 23 of that Act 121AC: Schedule 12, page 174, line 11, leave out “not be Deputy Senior District Judge (Chief Magistrate) designated greater” and insert “be less” under that section (3A) In Table 1 of Part 1 omit the entries for the following Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, this is a former offices— short point about the Judicial Appointments Commission. Senior District Judge (Chief Magistrate) designated under Schedule 12 allows for equality between judicial members subsection (2) of section 10A of the Justices of the Peace Act 1997 293 Crime and Courts Bill [HL][LORDS] Regeneration 294

Deputy Senior District Judge (Chief Magistrate) designated Arrangement of Business under that subsection” Announcement Amendment 124 agreed. 7.32 pm Amendment 124A not moved. Baroness Northover: My Lords, because the Question for Short Debate of the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, 7.30 pm will now be taken as last business the time limit for the debate can become 90 minutes rather than 60 minutes. Amendments 125 and 126 Speeches can therefore be limited to nine minutes Moved by Lord McNally except for the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, and the Minister’s speech, which will remain limited to 125: Schedule 12, page 178, leave out lines 14 to 18 and 10 and 12 minutes respectively. insert— “(b) in paragraph (c) for “(3)(c)” substitute “(3)(d)”.” 126: Schedule 12, page 184, line 29, at end insert— Regeneration “(6) In Table 1 of Part 2 omit the entry for the following Question for Short Debate former office— Justice of the Peace appointed under section 5 of the Justices 7.32 pm of the Peace Act 1997” Asked by Lord Mawson Amendments 125 and 126 agreed. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Amendment 126A not moved. have plans for a co-ordinated approach towards regeneration, in particular in the new metropolitan districts emerging in north-west England and east Amendments 127 to 130 London and, if so, what they are. Moved by Lord McNally 127: Schedule 12, page 184, leave out line 40 Lord Mawson: My Lords, I am conscious that a 128: Schedule 12, page 184, leave out line 43 number of people who will be speaking in this debate 129: Schedule 12, page 186, line 13, at end insert— have not yet arrived because there has been a change “(2A) In paragraph 3(1) (removal from office) before the “or” of time. I hope that they will arrive during the speech at the end of paragraph (b) insert— that I am about to make so that we can proceed as on “(ba) a person who is a deputy judge of the Upper Tribunal the Order Paper. (whether by appointment under paragraph 7(1) or as a When I first arrived in east London 30 years ago result of provision under section 31(2)),”.” the Isle of Dogs was a waste land. At that time the 130: Schedule 12, page 187, line 15, leave out from “Chancellor” financial centre of Canary Wharf did not exist. The to “and”in line 16 and insert “(and in accordance with paragraph 3),” culture of the public and voluntary sectors was anti- business. A dependency culture was rife and the councils Amendments 127 to 130 agreed. running the surrounding boroughs of Newham, Tower Hamlets and Hackney were, I think it is fair to say, Amendments 131 and 132 not moved. basket cases. Over the past 30 years, major changes have taken place and east London has been transformed. Amendment 133 Because of the focused leadership of the noble Lord, Moved by Lord McNally Lord Heseltine, and others taking part in this debate, a phoenix is now rising from the ashes and east London 133: Schedule 12, page 195, line 14, leave out “(4) (subsection (3)” is once again becoming a global destination and a and insert “(5) (subsection (4)” centre of enterprise, innovation, finance and business. Amendment 133 agreed. It is increasingly being recognised as a powerful engine of the British economy as it had been, before the Schedule 12, as amended, agreed. demise of the docks, for several hundred years previously. It was a privilege to take the Commercial Secretary, Clause 19 : Deployment of the judiciary the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, and the noble Lord, Lord Jones of Birmingham, by boat last week down some of the 6.5 miles of waterways across the Lower Amendment 134 Lea Valley. My colleagues and I showed them all that Moved by Lord McNally has been achieved in a relatively short period of time and the potential that still exists if we continue to 134: Clause 19, page 17, line 17, after “tribunals” insert “, and updates references to chairmen of employment tribunals following focus our attention and commitment. This trip is one their being renamed as Employment Judges” of a number of water tours that I have been hosting over the past few years as chairman of the all-party Amendment 134 agreed. group exploring regeneration, sport and culture, showing Members of your Lordships’ House and the other Clause 19, as amended, agreed. place the scale of development and investment opportunity in east London. Many of your Lordships who have House resumed. made the journey east by boat with me have been 295 Regeneration[27 JUNE 2012] Regeneration 296 surprised to see the rate of development, the scale of investment opportunity is great, but the task is not land and the potential for further investment in east complete. Continued focus and leadership in both London. central and London government beyond the Olympics While chairing the APPG I was fortunate to make a are crucial if we are to ensure that the momentum voyage of discovery myself when the group’s secretary, created by the Games is not dissipated afterwards. the right honourable Hazel Blears MP, invited me to Underlying the regeneration and investment priorities spend a day in Media City, Salford. What I saw there in east London is the ambitious overarching objective mirrored the developments in east London. I was of convergence, or narrowing the gap. The agenda shown pictures of former derelict docks and waterways aims to tackle inequalities by closing the socioeconomic that since the 1960s had been deserted. I learnt about gap between east London and the rest of the capital a shared industrial history built around waterways. I within 20 years. This is an aspiration that unites all six also saw a modern experience of enterprise and Olympic host boroughs and has support from the regeneration in the midst of our poorest communities. Mayor of London and national government. In Newham, I will let others who know far more about the north-west along with this desire for convergence with the rest of talk about what is happening 200 miles north. Suffice London, goes the desire to be financially sustainable to say that these two areas of significant economic, and become a net contributor to the UK economy. cultural and social growth provide this country with Ideas about convergence alone will not bring investment. important financial and business opportunities in a The area needs a unique London identity like Wembley, time when growth is ignored at great peril. Kew or Westminster if we are to attract international The purpose in raising this debate today is to make investors. Hence the “water city” vision for what are sure that these two important areas of growth are the historic docklands. placed firmly on the map of the UK. They present the The 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games have nation with development nodes that are nationally helped to kick-start this sustainable objective. For and internationally significant, now and in the years example, Westfield shopping centre estimates that the ahead. They require a sustained, co-ordinated and Games brought forward its investment in Stratford thoughtful response from the Government if they are City around five to seven years earlier than would to fulfil their true potential. otherwise have occurred. This added between £1.1 billion With only a few weeks to go until the Olympics and £2.2 billion to the London economy. Oxford begin, I will now focus my remarks on east London. Economics found that with a skills mix matching the For those of us who live and work in east London we London average, growth in east London could generate know that the Olympics are actually not the biggest an additional GDP of £7.3 billion a year by 2030 and show in town, but a fantastic catalyst helping us join improve the public finances by about £5 billion a year. the dots of development nodes down the Lower Lea I would like to take this moment to refocus our Valley. These are well advanced in Greenwich and the attention on east London and alert the House to the O2 in the south, at the expanding City Airport and the bigger growth picture there that has significant implications growing international conference centre at Excel—of nationally. The London Borough of Newham and which I am sure the noble Lord, Lord King, will say University College London are currently exploring the more—in the global business district at Canary Wharf, establishment of a new campus for UCL. In terms of in Canning Town with £3.7 billion of investment, and urban regeneration, the Olympic legacy and the future further north in Poplar with a £1 billion housing and competitiveness of the UK, this development is of regeneration scheme with which I and my colleagues immense local, national and international importance. are involved. Here I must declare an interest. Of equal significance is the Royal Docks Enterprise At the Westfield shopping centre in Stratford across Zone, for which the Mayor of London, the London the River Lea we witnessed 1 million shoppers in the Enterprise Partnership and the London Borough of first week of opening. Stratford now has a new Newham have high ambitions. The Royal Docks will international station with a Eurostar platform. The be a world-class business destination for the knowledge Tech City concept at Old Street enhances east London economy through the creation of a science and technology as a rapidly developing science and technology hub. hub within a high quality environment in which to live Sitting in the middle of all this activity is the Queen and work. This hub would complement the Prime Elizabeth Olympic Park that will hold five new villages Minister’s “tech city” vision. If this is successful, Britain and a commercial district. Again, I must declare an has the opportunity to be a world leader in science and interest as a director of what is now called the London technology. Legacy Development Corporation. This is a new city, What threatens this future vision of east London? a metropolitan district arising in the east of London We all know that world-class infrastructure is crucial that has profound implications for the capital. These to maximising UK growth potential yet, despite over development nodes are connected by the 6.5 miles of £1 billion of public investment, Stratford International waterways. It was the late Reg Ward, the life force station currently has no international services. There is behind the Canary Wharf development, who many support from East Anglia, the Midlands and beyond years ago described the Lower Lea Valley as a water for the station to play a role for both HS1 and HS2, to city. If you fly into City Airport and look down you increase business between the UK and the Continent. will see exactly what he meant. Disappointingly, the Government have not as yet As we prepare for the Olympic Games in east confirmed Stratford’s role in the UK’s high-speed rail London we are 25 years into what is a 50-year regeneration network, and so risk the benefits that this could bring journey. The opportunity to present to the world the to the UK. 297 Regeneration[LORDS] Regeneration 298

[LORD MAWSON] derelict dockland to exciting and gleaming media city, Another area of concern is insufficient capacity on there is much yet to do to realise the potential for local existing river crossings to meet current demand. Without people in skills, jobs and opportunities, matching the this issue being comprehensively addressed, the Olympic outstanding physical regeneration with the social host boroughs warn that it will be a significant barrier regeneration that will transform people’s lives. In this, to achieving convergence. The major missing element the chief executive Julia Fawcett and her excellent in the Mayor of London’s crossing package is the team at the Lowry are leading the way. absence of a firm commitment to a fixed-link crossing The Lowry was in fact one of the first regeneration at Gallions. The Silvertown tunnel could provide necessary projects on Salford Quays and has undoubtedly been resilience to the Blackwall Tunnel, but this will do the seed around which one of the most vibrant cultural little for the regeneration of key sites, such as in the and media destinations in the world is now crystallising. eastern Royals, Beckton, Woolwich and Thamesmead. The £160 million capital investment from lottery funds For this, the Silvertown tunnel needs to be complemented has not only produced this world-class arts facility but by a river crossing at Gallions, a catalyst for economic catalysed phenomenal further regeneration, predominantly development. from the private sector, to the tune of £650 million in The fundamental danger, of course, is that when the MediaCityUK development. With the Lowry at its the Games are over the uninitiated will feel that they heart, the media city is now also home to the Imperial have now done east London and it is time to move on, War Museum North, BBC North, the University of yet that is precisely the time when the opportunity is at Salford and over 60 diverse production, service and its greatest. To ensure that the vision for a fully regenerated ancillary companies. With ITV Granada currently east London is realised, that our national focus is constructing its production facility on Trafford Wharf, maintained and that the microdetails of infrastructure this constitutes an altogether impressive and dynamic are addressed, my first question to the Minister is: constellation of media and digital entrepreneurship. who is the person in Government today with responsibility This is testimony to the development, not only on the for driving these changes through to the end after the quays but throughout the north-west, of expertise and Olympics have finished? Who is going to work through innovation in the creative and digital industries which until Sunday evening and get out of bed on Monday has the potential to rival the best in the world, provided morning to develop this national regeneration project that it is nurtured and supported. Of that, I will say with international implications? My next question more in a moment. to the Minister is: how will the Government ensure a co-ordinated response from across government From the outset, the Lowry has had three equally departments to the new opportunities that I have important core objectives and is matching commitment outlined, linking this with other emerging growth areas to outstanding theatre and visual arts content to the nationally? This matter is bigger than the interests commitment to using its assets to create opportunities served by London government alone. for local people, especially young people, with a constant focus on reaching those groups who are more It is my view that by fully regenerating areas of disadvantaged or who would not normally gravitate to potential growth, like the Lower Lea Valley, we will be an arts environment. This distinctly Lowry approach making a significant contribution towards our immediate is one that I believe many organisations should emulate. and future national economy. I realise that some noble Lords may have heard me reference these issues at the I shall give noble Lords some examples of what this Second Reading of the Financial Services Bill last means in practice. Walkabout is the Lowry’s flagship week but I see no harm in reiterating the point. Now is community engagement programme, which has so far the time to co-ordinate all our efforts and ensure that engaged around 8,500 residents. Inspired to Aspire east London is fully regenerated. We need to end on a is an initiative that uses the inspirational environment full stop, not a comma. and people of the Lowry and the wider quays to encourage and nurture aspiration with disengaged young people and provide formal and informal entry routes into 7.44 pm employment. Working with a network of referral agencies, Baroness Hughes of Stretford: My Lords, I congratulate including schools and colleges, the Lowry provides the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, on securing this important significant numbers of young people who are NEET debate and thank him for his references to my home or at risk with opportunities in volunteering, short-term area of Greater Manchester. I welcome the opportunity placements and, where possible, apprenticeships and to contribute and do so not only as a trustee of the full-time employment. The young carers project provides Lowry Theatre, for which I declare an interest, but creative experience for young carers to promote positive from a longstanding involvement, as a former local changes in their health and well-being, as well as a authority leader and Member of Parliament, in the platform to raise awareness about their roles and the regeneration of the dockland area of the Manchester issues that affect them. Ship Canal that is now Salford and Trafford Quays. A recent development in partnership with others is The story of the regeneration of this area could not the successful bid for a university technical college at been told without the vision, doggedness and commitment MediaCityUK. The UTC will focus on digital and creative of many people, too numerous to name but to whom I industries and performing arts alongside entrepreneurship, pay tribute. It is a pleasure to see my honourable and will contribute to the massive growth potential of friend at the Bar today because she was certainly one these industries in our region. It will ensure that local of them. However, it is a story that has not yet ended. young people can access the opportunities that this While the area has been transformed physically from growing sector brings, linking new industrial demand 299 Regeneration[27 JUNE 2012] Regeneration 300 to its local community. This is of crucial importance, Urban Broadband Fund? Will it also support the Greater as I am sure noble Lords will appreciate, in an area that Manchester Combined Authority’s bid for ERDF in is significantly challenged by deprivation, unemployment support of the Greater Manchester broadband plan? and social problems. All this activity is on a financial Finally, I have stressed the leading examples of the model that raises £7 through its own activities for Lowry and Sharp in contributing not only to the every £1 of public subsidy. I hope to invite noble growth of this new economic sector, and thereby to Lords to an event here later this year to hear more the UK economy, but to narrowing the socio-economic about the Lowry’s social regeneration work. gap in our region. Not all of our participants are as I want to mention another project, this time on the committed as this. For example, the record of the BBC east of Manchester, which is similarly pioneering in MediaCityUK so far is poor, with only 26 of the innovation in the creative and digital sectors and is 680 new jobs created by the move north going to local equally committed to using its capacity and assets to people. This is not good enough. There is no reason develop the talents and opportunities for local people. why all organisations, especially those funded with The Sharp Project is home to over 70 digital entrepreneurs public money, should not have the explicit objective of and production companies that make, manipulate or investing in the skill, development and training that move around the world digital content. The £16.5 million will enable local people to compete successfully for development, partly funded by Manchester City Council new jobs. This needs a strong lead from government. I and ably directed by Sue Woodward, is fantastic and I would be very grateful to hear from the Minister what encourage Members to see it if they can. It is based in commitment the Government have to promoting and a 200,000 square foot warehouse and offers exciting, monitoring this kind of social regeneration, which can flexible and affordable space for offices, production and transform peoples’ lives. event space for companies, thereby helping to grow the creative digital sector in our region. Over the past year 7.53 pm the Sharp Project has produced award-winning TV output and accommodated over 400 people in employment, Lord King of Bridgwater: I join the noble Baroness either directly or as freelancers. Set up to run alongside in paying tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, for the project is SharpFutures, an independent social introducing this debate, and for the enthusiasm and enterprise supported by Manchester City Council energy with which he chairs the all-party group on this to ensure there is a social return on investment, and hugely important subject. As the noble Lord rightly SharpFutures exists to nurture and grow talent and said, I am going to concentrate on east London, where capacity in the digital and creative sectors by opening I am mainly involved, but I could not help reflecting up and building capacity, particularly in deprived while the noble Baroness was speaking that when he communities. asked, “Who is the Minister who goes to bed on Sunday night and gets up early on Monday morning I do not have time to do more than mention the ready to concentrate?”, I used to be that Minister. One cultural hub at the other end of the ship canal which is of my responsibilities was to decide what to do about Liverpool, former capital of culture, but no doubt the Manchester Exchange railway station, which was noble Lord, Lord Storey, will do so. However, all of crumbling away. The pillars were rusting, so were we this together testifies to the critical mass of expertise going to put a lot of money in—£250,000—without in our region in this exciting new sector, and the having any idea of what we were going to do with the tremendous potential for Greater Manchester and the station? I know it is now a very successful exhibition north-west to become a global hub for creative and and conference centre, and I am very pleased that the digital entrepreneurship. However, this has not happened extravagant decision which I took then has worked by accident. Nor will this potential be fully realised out so well. without drive and support. Local partners, public and I also feel I know quite a bit about MediaCityUK, private, have already demonstrated their commitment because I served on the Communications Committee and ability not only to achieve regeneration and new of this House under the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, in economic activity but to harness those benefits for which we reviewed the charter of the BBC. The right local people. Others, including the Government, must reverend Prelate the Bishop of Manchester showed his now rise to the challenge. total partiality at all times when interviewing BBC people to ensure that they were going to move to Will the Minister address three issues? First, reflecting Manchester and Salford, where MediaCityUK now is. the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, and I feel as though I have been there before. particularly now that the regional development agencies have been abolished, where will the oversight, drive However, I want to speak about east London, because and momentum be coming from in Government to I have had a strange involvement with it. I worked identify these opportunities for growth, and to remove with Michael Heseltine as a Minister when we first the barriers to progress? came into Government—he is now my noble friend Lord Heseltine, of course—and his energy and enthusiasm Secondly, the creative and digital industries depend was considerable. The first thing we did when he crucially on connectivity.The noble Lord, Lord Mawson, became Secretary of State was to get in a helicopter asked about High Speed 2, and I share his concern. and fly over the whole of that dockland area. There Equally important is superfast broadband. What were 5,000 derelict acres within a mile and a half of commitment do the Government have to enable these some of the most expensive real estate in the world, areas to have priority access to superfast broadband? which was the City of London. After our helicopter Will the Government support Salford’s bid for the flight, we came down and got into a bus with some of 301 Regeneration[LORDS] Regeneration 302

[LORD KING OF BRIDGWATER] will open. It owes a great deal to the enthusiasm of the the most militant left Labour leaders of the various mayor, who managed to persuade the Emirates airline boroughs that existed in that area who were absolutely that it was a wonderful thing to have its name on it and determined that nothing interfered with their own to put up the money to help to build it. That will be sovereignty over those areas. From that came: the another asset to the site. Local Government, Planning and Land Act; the creation of the London Docklands Development Corporation; It is interesting to see the challenge. Picking up on the creation of two most remarkable chairmen and the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, deputy chairmen in the shape of the late Sir Nigel having gradually got that critical mass together, east Broackes and the late Lord Mellish, who many of London is where it is all now happening. When we your Lordships will remember as the deputy chairman. started out on this venture, and I talked about the He took on the hard left at some pain to himself, and possibility of an exhibition centre and we talked about with real difficulty, because he saw the benefit it was the Royal Docks, there was a tremendous west London going to bring, and the life that he could bring to an bias in this great city of ours and people said, “Nobody area that was so totally derelict at that time. will ever go there”. A lot of people said, “Where is it?”. They thought that it was somewhere near Southend. It did take considerable investment. Having set up There was quite extraordinary ignorance. Even now, the development corporation and given it the planning you will find quite a lot of people in London who have powers for the area of the Docklands that had previously never been to Canary Wharf, and hardly know that it derived from five different councils that could never is there. It is now the great growth area, as the noble agree on what should happen, one figure sticks in my Lord, Lord Mawson, said. That whole area, with the mind. The investment required in one particular area Olympics, other developments, London City Airport, meant we were spending £500,000 per acre—a lot of the university and with Tech City, brings a critical money on those days—to deal with the contaminated mass together. land problem, before you could even start thinking about any construction. Subsequently there was Canary I was delighted to see, because I obviously have to Wharf and the various other wonderful developments declare an interest with my involvement in ExCel, that that exist there. I remember also on the housing side while when we started on the convention centre London that we lined up five different volume house builders was 19th in the world for its share of international and gave them each land to build 500 houses. I do not convention business, in our third year we had already want to dwell on Labour but they were all Labour gone from 19th to ninth. We are now seventh in the boroughs at that time, of a complexion that I hope the world; that is competing with Atlanta, Munich, Barcelona, Labour Party has now well left behind in its present Paris and the major cities of the world. This is a great creation. They said to us, “people do not want to own opportunity. It will grow because the other merits of their own houses. They like being council tenants and London mean that it must be in the top three. Now we look after them.” That, of course, was the source of that we have a major convention centre, I hope that we the power of much of the leadership of those councils. shall see not only business for the convention centre When the opportunity arose to buy 2,500 houses for but the added value—the multiplier—and benefit that sale and with preference given to the people living in it brings in, perhaps by bringing in a medical convention those London dockland boroughs, the queue down with 20,000 or 30,000 consultants and their families. the road on show day was a mile long, formed of people who were determined to have the chance they The particular pleasure that we all have is that it is had never had before of owning their own homes. taking place in the most deprived London borough, Subsequently, when I came out of government, Newham, with the co-operation of a very energetic because of my previous involvement in the Docklands Labour Mayor of Newham, Sir Robin Wales, who has area I was approached to look at the possibilities of done an outstanding job for his borough. Yet there is 100 derelict acres on the Royal Victoria Dock. I did so much else to do. Standing on the balcony of ExCel, not really know the royal docks very well at that time. for the past 20 years I have looked out at the other side They were one of the wonders of the world in Victorian of the dock. There is a site with nearly 100 acres that and later times with a 1,000-acre estate and 250 acres have lain derelict. They were owned by the LDDC, of enclosed water—the largest enclosed water space in then by English Partnerships, then by the LDA, then the world—where 150,000 people worked in their time. the GLA. This is a failure to get the drive together. This was hallowed land for all those people who had Now we see the opportunities. worked in the docks for generations in east London. It My concern, shared by practically every noble Lord was also derelict. When I first went to the 100-acre site in this House, is how we are going to earn our living in on the north of the Royal Victoria Dock, the only the world in the future. One of the things that we have living things I saw were two foxes. Now, after much to do where we see opportunities for growth is to make pain and struggle, if you go there now you will find a them work. It is not a question of which Minister will million square feet of exhibition space, a 5,000 seat be responsible for this, because we have got a mayor. convention centre, six hotels and three DLR stations. Where you have a mayor, you have an extra dimension. At this very minute, the Crossrail line is starting to be Cities which fail to choose to have a mayor are missing dug that will come right through and surface at the out in a big way because that is where the opportunities Royal Victoria site. will come. I hope that we shall see the sort of leadership It is rather appropriate that we are having this that the mayor has shown to be possible in east London debate. Tomorrow the Emirates Air Line, which is the reflected across the other cities of our country, which cable car that runs from the O2 to the ExCel centre, we know need that growth so badly at present. 303 Regeneration[27 JUNE 2012] Regeneration 304

8.03 pm who gave huge amounts of money to develop serums for third-world countries, we used their expertise. With Lord Storey: I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord the other two universities, we created a science park Mawson, for initiating this debate. We are talking which has gone from strength to strength. about new metropolitan districts. I come from a very old metropolitan district or, as we now call it, the We then looked at other things that were special. Liverpool City Region. Liverpool itself celebrated its Liverpool has a river. You did not see any cruise liners 800th birthday in 2007. As the noble Baroness, Lady coming along the river. Yet the cruise liner industry Hughes, reminded us, the following year it became the was prospering throughout the UK. So we used European European Capital of Culture. Objective 1 money to create—we have to be careful Liverpool at one stage was regarded as the second what we call this—a cruise liner facility. We could not city of the then British Empire. It lost its way very call it a terminal, because it might upset Southampton. much in the 1970s and 1980s. The 1980s were a very That worked. The present council is looking at a cruise difficult time for Liverpool. There were huge job losses: liner terminal: a turnaround facility. To make that Tate and Lyle, Dunlop and Triumph Motors. Thousands happen we have had to pay back to the Government of people were losing their jobs. That impacted, of £7.6 million. That £7.6 million was European Objective course, on the social fabric of the city. It also impacted 1 and Northwest Regional Development Agency money, on the political fabric of the city. so I ask the Minister whether she will look at that money coming back to Liverpool for other regeneration Liverpool suffered other problems. There were the projects, as that was what it was originally for. so-called Toxteth riots. There was the portrayal of Liverpudlians; they became the butt-end of humour We looked at music and the conference business. and jokes. Liverpool went through a very difficult Liverpool has a culture of music. At one stage it was time. As the noble Lord, Lord King, reminds us, I classed the “capital of pop”. Why the capital of pop? remember Michael Heseltine coming to the city. He We had more number one chart-toppers than any got a helicopter and flew over Merseyside to look at it. other city in the world. I bet there has never been a He got the civic leaders together. He got the business quiz in the House of Lords. Do any noble Lords know leaders together. I was a young councillor, the chair of what the first number one was? It was “(How Much Is) education, at the time. You could actually see the way That Doggie in the Window?” by Lita Roza. Paul Michael Heseltine changed his views on these great McCartney came to the city and we had to create an northern cities. outside concert arena. We built a conference and I was elected leader of the city council in 1998. I arena centre and that has gone from strength to strength. was lucky in my first year to go to New York and So I think that regeneration is about creating the Dublin, two cities which also turned themselves around. conditions for businesses to succeed; creating, if you I remember talking to the civic leaders and asking, like, as Michael Heseltine did in the 1980s, a vision “How have you turned yourself around and regenerated and a plan of where the city should go. your cities?”. The answer was the same in New York as I should also like to pay tribute, at the opposite end, it was in Dublin. It was one word: “confidence”. You to the noble Lord, Lord Prescott. He established the have to create confidence in your city. Governments first regeneration company in Liverpool, which brought and councils do not create regeneration or jobs. They together local authority and business. It was strange create the conditions for businesses to flourish, to sitting next to Terry Leahy, for example, who was one create the wealth, to create the jobs. They said, “You of the directors of Liverpool Vision. Again, they put will know that you have been successful when you can together a plan of how the city could create the count the cranes on the skyline”. I became obsessed by conditions for regeneration. this. I would drive into the city centre, counting the cranes to see whether we were changing the city around. There are lessons for the new metropolitan districts The next thing I realised was that you had to look to learn. Those lessons are very simple indeed. It is not at the things that were unique to that city and make it about Governments saying, “One size fits all”; it is work. We worked closely with Manchester—I worked not about Governments telling us what should be with Richard Leese—looking at the areas with which done. We have done that in the past, where Governments we could be compatible and the areas that were distinctive say, “This is what you must do: inner city partnerships to our cities. We looked at Liverpool and thought, or urban aid”. Cities are unique; they have unique “Gosh, here is a city which at one stage was in the top conditions, unique problems and unique solutions. four retails destinations in the UK”. It had slumped Nor is it about the sort of government which was the out to the bottom 20. Thanks to a £1 billion private fad of the previous Government and which seems to investment from the Duke of Westminster, we created be happening now, where you bid for everything, and Liverpool ONE which was at the time Europe’s largest it is a bit like a beauty parade. The noble Lord, Lord retail and leisure development: 1 million square feet. Greaves, reminded us of this earlier. Now the beauty We are now back in the top five retail destinations. parade often involves celebrities, so that Mary Portas comes and looks at our high streets. It should not be We looked at our universities and thought, “Gosh, like that; it should be about what can work for that these are top, world-class universities with real talent city and those people. and expertise. How do we bring them into the regeneration of the city?”. We did that. We worked with them. For The other thing I want to say is that it is not just example, we worked with the Liverpool School of about the physical environment of the city. It has to be Tropical Medicine, a world leader, to link with the about the people themselves. Cities have to “skill up” pharmacy industries in the city. Thanks to Bill Gates, their young people. If one talks to any business, 305 Regeneration[LORDS] Regeneration 306

[LORD STOREY] unless local people are involved, there will be no the message that comes out loud and clear is that ownership, no pride, no transformation and perhaps, young people need skills. I have been talking to two echoing the noble Lord’s statement, not even any different businesses. Cammell Laird shipbuilders has confidence. suddenly blossomed again. It was a world-class shipbuilder, I am delighted to hear that Cammell Laird is now which collapsed and closed down. A group of senior back in business. This will be an enormous attraction staff started a small ship-repairing business, which has to the local people living in the river streets of Birkenhead, grown and grown and now has a turnover of £400 million. who found it so difficult to move anywhere further It is now looking to become even bigger than that. afield when that shipyard closed years ago. When one asks the company, “What is holding you We have not yet mentioned—perhaps I dare to back?” it says, “We need the skills. We have our own mention—local enterprise partnerships. I understand apprenticeship course. We take on 20 apprentices per that in the Liverpool city region, the LEP is advancing year. It is a four-year course and we pay for it ourselves, rapidly, with strategies for low-carbon economy and But we still need more people with those skills”. sustainable action plans. This perhaps broadens the Last week in Manchester I talked to people in the picture but also takes us into that sense of wider textile industry. Manchester University has the only responsibility as we try to achieve growth today. The textile manufacturing degree course left in the country. north-west is the most renewable energy-rich region in Everybody who goes on that course can get a job. Yet the country and is capitalising this asset. Of course we the textile industry would like to expand that course also have the knowledge economy—some of these and develop the industry. When one talks to companies things have already been referred to—tourism and the they say, “We need the skills”. motor industry, all being promoted vigorously by the I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, when Liverpool city region LEP. he said in this Chamber that he was, If we go further back—I think that these have “very critical of the past 100 years of government responsibility already been mentioned—the regional development for education. Our industry depends on world-class results if it is agency in the north-west recognised the importance of to create and sustain first-class jobs”.—[Official Report, 22/3/12; engaging the local community as well as business in col. 1052.] the regeneration of the region. I hope that the Minister How right that is. Equally, however, governments have might comment on whether the engine of renewal that been responsible for chopping and changing education. brings both community and business together might So—I am going to shut up. be reignited by the LEP. I give as examples investment in the Florence Institute for the regeneration of Toxteth; 8.13 pm investment in Mersey Forest to transform blighted urban areas which might not quite benefit from even The Lord Bishop of Birmingham: My Lords, I stand as wonderful an investment as Liverpool ONE through in place of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of the Grosvenor Estate; and investment in Faiths4Change, Liverpool, who is unavoidably detained and cannot which engages faith communities in transforming local attend your Lordships’ House tonight. I hope that I environments. These and other such initiatives enable will be an adequate substitute, having been the bishop areas to be even more attractive, not just for local of Birkenhead, where I had an excellent view of Liverpool residents but for businesses. for six years of the first part of this century. I was also There is an inextricable link between economic and chair of the Wirrall local strategic partnership, which community regeneration. I trust and expect that this wrestled with some of these issues, and I now chair the will be reflected in the boards of our LEPs and their Birmingham social cohesion process under a new strategies for growth and regeneration. government in Birmingham which is trying to look mayoral—and we will see how it goes. 8.18 pm I am delighted that the noble Lord has tabled this Motion, not least because he himself has pioneered Lord Greaves: My Lords, I too would like to thank models of regeneration that have transformed the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, not least for adding neighbourhoods into communities. We have heard a the critical words “north-west” into his Question, lot tonight about these large, multibillion investments, which allows some of us to make a bigger debate than which as a former businessman I fully appreciate and it might otherwise have been. I am grateful for that. I think are absolutely vital. At the same time, however, will declare a slightly extended interest—and I will our experience over the past few years in the north of explain why, because my interest leads me into what I single regeneration bids, which were largely business-led, am going to say. Many people have been bragging and the new deals for communities, which were largely about what has been going on in their areas. I can brag community-led, has been that both produce results. for Pendle until the day I die. I am not going to do They both produce some of the things that we have that; I am going to set out some of our difficulties at been talking about in terms of skills and new investment. the moment. Nevertheless, I declare my interest as an However, it is our conviction that they have to be held elected member of Pendle council, which is a small district together—that the regeneration must be twin-engined, council in east Lancashire, so it is not a metropolitan if you like, with leadership from both the business area. It is an area of 19th century cotton towns; they world and the community. We have touched on this in are no longer cotton towns, there is very little left, but some of the speeches tonight. Of course business is that is what the area is, surrounded by our wonderful vital to creating jobs and to sustaining the welfare of Pennine countryside. Towns in the area, such as families and communities, but community also is vital—for Accrington, Burnley, Nelson and Colne, have the problems 307 Regeneration[27 JUNE 2012] Regeneration 308 of metropolitan councils and inner cities but the resources market renewal brought huge resources. It was flawed of small districts. That is a serious problem that areas but people were getting a grip on it and it was nothing like ours around England have. like as bad as the press that it got. In my area, it Regeneration tends to be focused on the big cities brought in £10 million a year to each district local and metropolitan areas. The concept of city regions authority area, which certainly in Burnley and Pendle was not invented by the coalition Government; it we were using in sensible ways. That suddenly stopped became the vogue quite a few years ago. But from our and it has caused chaos. There are huge problems of perspective, it is a concept which has flaws as a universal schemes being half finished and a need to look around model. I am not in any way denigrating the vital role for resources to finish them. It causes problems for that big cities play throughout England, which is people who were promised things but who now find where we are talking about, or in Wales and Scotland. that they will not happen. The major regional centres, after London and the That does not only happen when a new Government south-east, have been the great success story of England are elected; it also happens when the Secretary of in the past couple of decades. For all the problems that State changes and so on. They bring in new fads. One they still have, places such as Manchester, Newcastle, of the latest fads, which my noble friend mentioned, is Leeds and Norwich have gained status and economic the Mary Portas scheme. The work that she has been importance. For example, Leeds’ financial importance doing is excellent and helpful, and it helps people to is far greater than it used to be. I am in no way saying think. But the competition for pilots leaves a great that that is a bad thing. In particular, these cities are a deal to be desired. There were 371 bids and 12 pilots counterbalance to the tendency otherwise of London have been approved, one of which was in Nelson, and the south-east to suck in resources, growth and Pendle. We are quite good at such things, and we are development. Again, I totally recognise all the problems very pleased to have that money and to have those that there are in the East End and other parts of London. resources. But 371 places have put in the time, effort There are two problems with regarding the city and cost of making the bids, but only 12 have been region concept as applicable to everywhere else in the approved, with another 15 to come. country. There are areas where it does not sensibly Empty housing is a huge problem in areas like ours. work. Areas need to be looked at in a different way. All the ways in which we were trying to deal with this For example, you could say that Cornwall and Devon under the previous Government have been largely are perhaps part of the Plymouth city region. However, pushed aside. We now have the empty homes fund—for that is not a sensible way of looking at the economy, which Pennine Lancashire and East Lancashire generally the communities and the way that the Cornubian bid—and we have won some of that as well. In Pendle, peninsular works. it will result perhaps in £3 million or £4 million-worth To regard a huge swathe of places around Greater of new investment in different ways, working in partnership London, the south-east and further on simply as part with landlords and housing associations, to tackle the of the London city region, which they clearly are, is problems of empty housing in our area. A lot of it will not enough. It is not enough to say to Hastings or be in the ward that I represent on the council, so I am Brighton that their problems can be solved and their not totally against this kind of thing. needs tackled by considering them as part of the The things for which you can bid for money and the coastal area of the London city region. Their problems ways in which you can get resources change with the are much greater than that and are more complicated. Government and the Secretary of State. That is not an Of course, if we are not careful, there is a problem in efficient way to do things. The old way is stopped, with city regions that the big city centre can suck in all the all the inefficiencies that are involved in doing that, growth and resources as well as a large proportion of and then you have to start again with the new way. the people. There is a natural tendency for that to happen. Bidding takes an enormous amount of resources. There In my view, one of the jobs of the Government is to are some pros, including getting people to think, and act as a countervailing force against that. There are good ideas are spread around. Sometimes when schemes also areas which, with the best will in the world, do are worked out, people find that they can do them not fit into city regions. Which city region do West anyway. A large amount of waste is involved in these Cumbria, Whitehaven, Workington and Barrow belong schemes. in? City regions do not make sense when you are We have to get back to an acceptance that regeneration considering the future of those areas. East Lancashire—or is not just about cities and city regions. It is also about Pennine Lancashire, if that is how you like to call smaller places, such as the Barrows, the Workingtons, where I live—is on the fringe of perhaps the Manchester the Whitehavens, the Great Yarmouths, the Hastings, city region or the Leeds and Bradford city region. But the Accringtons, the Burnleys and the Nelsons and it does not make a great deal of sense to look at our Colnes of this world. I am a great believer that the future simply by considering our relationship to those purpose of government resources is to provide a basis big cities—welcome as it is to have the news from the for getting funding from the private sector and other Government that the Todmorden Curve will be built areas, and for providing a way in which the local and Burnley can have a regular railway service into economy can work. In simply doing it all, the multiplier Manchester. effect is huge. We have to get back to the principle that My noble friend Lord Storey used the words government resources are handed out and provided “government fads”. One of the problems is that objectively on the basis of need and not on the basis of Governments have fads. When there is a change of the slightly bogus competitions according to the latest Government, the old fads are thrown out. Housing fads of Ministers. 309 Regeneration[LORDS] Regeneration 310

8.17 pm To return to the 2010 London site, some of your Lordships may have been on the exhilarating trip that Baroness Howe of Idlicote: My Lords, it has been we were offered by British Waterways some six months fascinating to listen to the personal experiences of ago to go and inspect progress. We set off from noble Lords who have been involved in the development Westminster Pier, bouncing along at high speed in and creations in their areas over recent years. Of three or four rubber boats. We reached the Isle of course, I particularly want to congratulate my noble Dogs in record time and turned left into the canal friend Lord Mawson on tabling the debate. It is important network. The canals were far from clean; there was to hear how the Government see their plans for the even a rumour that they should be covered up and future, especially as to how the legacy aspect of these hidden during the Olympic Games. True or false, the operations is developing now that we are so close to far more sensible, and clearly money-making, approach the start of the 2012 Games. In this House, we are very was under way: that they should be cleaned up and lucky to have noble Lords who have been involved in used for transport and organised tours. Certainly our competitive sport and now are very active in the tour showed the remarkable progress that had already entrepreneurial side of this whole area of development. been made, with many of the buildings to house I will confine my comments to the east London competitors already up, as well as the main stadium 2012 Olympics and Paralympics site and its proposed and the Olympic swimming pool. In addition, the river legacy, although, of course, the major relocation of banks and other open spaces, recently planted, were the BBC to the Salford area will have an effect on the beginning to show the green grass coming through. I reporting of the Olympics. In addition, the major imagine that the massive amount of rain that we have reconstruction already achieved in that metropolitan had during our so-called summer has had a great district, which includes the University of Salford and effect on improving that still further. other areas that have been mentioned, is already providing By now the scene is very far advanced. That is why new jobs and attracting considerable business investment it is right to concentrate on the east London legacy interest. prospects. It is sad, of course, that the recent financial However, East London is the area that I know best. horrors meant that practically no private investment We have always had a London home south of the river was originally available for investment in that basic and currently live just off the Old Kent Road, which is Olympic site. However, there is already increasing very close to the Peckham Settlement, which my old interest from overseas businesses wishing to be part of school supports and of which I have been president this considerable future growth potential, although, as for nearly 40 years. The East End—particularly Poplar, we have heard, there is clearly a need for the Government which contains areas of considerable deprivation—is to ensure that our own business entrepreneurs are where I have made most of my more active volunteering equally aware and do not miss out on what are quite efforts, especially governing and managing many schools clear opportunities. in that area as well as doing juvenile court work. Canary Wharf already contains an example of a Some 30 years ago I was invited to visit an exciting modern enterprise zone, and there are plans for building new project in Poplar, in an area where most of the a new metropolitan district close by. When you think inhabitants were recent immigrants. The East End of that the architect Piano has just completed the brilliantly London has always seen a flow of immigrants in that inspired, iconic sky-scraper building known as the particular place, but certainly in this area the inhabitants Shard, you will begin to see the potential for inspiration were pretty recent. It turned out to be a completely for other designs. There is also, as we have heard, the different concept, pioneered by a new vicar, who, on planned expansion of City Airport. arrival, found that his church congregation consisted It is clear that overseas business entrepreneurs are of two old ladies, with water dripping through the seeing the site’s exciting possibilities. Above all, we light bulb. Within a very short time he had turned the must ensure that the local people, particularly the church into a very different, active community centre, children and the schools in this part of London, albeit retaining a religious centre for worship purposes. inherit and really benefit from a significant part of the Somehow this vicar had raised money to build promised legacy. There will be a continued demand for small, friendly houses with gardens to complement the premises for athletic events, but much more than that area’s endless blocks of council flats. He improved can be passed on. There is great potential for this area. considerably all the open spaces and, most importantly It is a vital part of London that is close to Europe and of all, raised money to build a medical centre, which the global world that we now live and compete in, as meant that the local people, not the local authority, others have mentioned, so it is very important that we could choose the doctors and nurses who worked move in this direction. If that is the plan and that is there. Workshops, too, were set up where skills were how the Government are thinking of promoting all learnt and, indeed, passed on to immigrants, who had these areas and doing their vital best for the people brought different skills into the country. Setting up who live in that area, I hope that we will hear about it, new small and medium-sized businesses was encouraged. not just this evening but well into the future. It was clearly an innovative and very successful regeneration model that has subsequently been followed 8.35 pm in many other parts of the country. Unfortunately, I did not meet this remarkable vicar at that time, but it Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I, too, am was no surprise when, in 2007, he joined us in your grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, for initiating Lordships’ House as my noble friend Lord Mawson, this short debate. I might have been even more grateful of Bromley-by-Bow. had he included Luton, and possibly Pendle, on his list 311 Regeneration[27 JUNE 2012] Regeneration 312 of places, because it would have enabled some of us to noble friend Lady Hughes, particularly in relation to join in the passion, advocacy and knowledge that has Salford Quays, which was a driver for significant private been displayed this evening by people in respect of the sector investment in Salford. I think that the strap-line areas that they know best and that they have been was “aspire to inspire”. A quite strong statistic is £7 of involved in for many years. investment for every £1 of public subsidy. The noble Baroness, Lady Howe, talked about east The noble Lord, Lord Mawson, talked about the London and the Old Kent Road, and the involvement major change that he had seen in east London. A of faith communities in regeneration. She also touched phoenix rising from the ashes was the expression that on issues of diversity, which is something that we he used, with six and a half miles of waterway. Sadly, know quite a lot about in Luton but that perhaps has in Luton the River Lea stays mostly underground, but not featured as prominently as one would have thought, perhaps we can work on that. The noble Lord is right since it is a common feature to pretty much all the to say that east London has been put firmly on the areas that we have talked about this evening. I think map of the UK. Obviously what happens post the the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, is right to say that Olympics is going to be very important. regeneration is not just about cities. I well recognise During the remainder of the time that I have, I the problems that might be inner-city problems of should like to concentrate on the Government’s role in resources that are not necessarily at a city level. As the and approach to regeneration generally, not necessarily noble Lord would not consider Brighton to be part of specifically in the areas that have been touched upon. Greater London, neither would we consider Luton to As to what regeneration actually means, I would adopt be part of Greater London. However, he did touch on the Select Committee’s definition of it being, the issue that has been an integral part of regeneration “a long term, comprehensive process which aims to tackle social, for some time: the need to bid for resources. When economic, physical and environmental issues in places”, there are, I believe, 371 bids for support for Mary Portas’s project but only 12 approved, that cannot be a of deprivation, particularly efficient way of proceeding. “where the market has failed”. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Birmingham Of course, it encompasses, but is not limited to, growing —substituting in part, I think, for the right reverend the local economy. The question posed by the noble Prelate the Lord Bishop of Liverpool—took us back Lord, Lord Mawson, is whether the Government have to SRB programmes and the New Deal for Communities. plans for a co-ordinated approach that would encompass I remember the New Deal for Communities in Luton; the north-west as well as east London. As I understand it created a furore because it could be focused only on it, the position is that the Government have no plans an area of some 4,000 households. We had pockets of to publish a national regeneration strategy of any sort deprivation, and trying to work out which one got it and therefore do not necessarily approach these matters was really quite difficult and traumatic. Nevertheless, in a national strategic way. the right reverend Prelate rightly focused on the twin I do not propose to comment further on the detail engine of business and community for growth. I am of the specific challenges, progress, successes and pleased that the leap that he is aware of is proceeding disappointments of the regeneration of either east rapidly. It has been a mixed picture across the country, London or the north-west, because we have heard as I understand it. Perhaps the noble Baroness might from others fantastic testimony to what has been update us on that. achieved. The noble Lord, Lord Storey, talked with passion It is understood that the Government set their face and knowledge about Liverpool and the difficulties of against a national strategy because they consider that shaking off a sometimes negative image. People will regeneration should be a matter for determination at remember the riots—we had riots in Luton—which is the local level, and their role is to provide the means somehow the image that is carried forward, whatever for local communities to do this. From what the noble good work and regeneration are otherwise going on. Lord, Lord Storey, said, I think he would agree with Like him, we used to look at cranes in the sky as a that approach. We support a true localist agenda, but measure of how well we were doing. it does not have to be inconsistent with a national The noble Lord, Lord King, reminded us about strategy. We can support many of the individual tools, east London and Canary Wharf, which is a fantastic flexibilities, options and powers that are being provided development. In part it mirrors what happened in to local communities, although some of them are as Manhattan. All the action was at Wall Street and no yet untested. We will be spending time over the next one thought of developing the centre until the Rockefeller few weeks examining whether the business rate retention Center was created, which has been hugely successful. scheme, as proposed, is an effective incentive for local The noble Lord made an interesting point about housing authorities to promote growth. Tax increment finance and home ownership. I partly recognise the point that is something that we have supported, although the he made, but I wonder whether people would be in Treasury looks to be restricting local freedoms in this exactly the same position now. A lot of houses have regard for TIF 2. We have supported enterprise zones. been swallowed up and have not been replaced, and As we have heard, local leadership is vital, although young people in particular are finding it very difficult the Government seem to have misread the mood in to get a house even to rent. I think that the noble Lord major cities in equating this with directly elected mayors. was right: this is about vision. That seems to be the I do not think that that is a point that the noble Lord, common feature, whatever the story regarding Lord King, would necessarily agree with; he would see regeneration. That featured in the contribution of my it as a missed opportunity. 313 Regeneration[LORDS] Regeneration 314

[LORD MCKENZIE OF LUTON] Government going to do about the co-ordination of The general power of competence for councils and regeneration? The question of the national strategy the prospect of a transfer of public functions to major crops up immediately. The reason why we are not cities is also something that we have supported through interested in a national strategy is that it imposes a the Localism Act. We have a shared aim of encouraging one-size-fits-all concept. What we need to do is make powerful and innovative cities to lead their areas. It is sure that the levers and mechanisms are in place to early days for the new planning system. Whatever the ensure that a strategy can be localised. I want to spend challenges, at least the regional spatial strategies provided a few minutes saying what the Government have done a strategic setting. It remains very difficult to see that over the past few years to lay the groundwork for the duty to co-operate is a sufficiently robust alternative regeneration and to provide the catalysts. when it comes to those sensitive but sometimes vital Twenty-four planned enterprise zones have been set planning decisions. up and they are already engaged in supporting business Anyone who has got close to regeneration projects growth and creating jobs. Noble Lords have mentioned will know of—we have heard about it this evening—the the importance of skills and training and that will be importance of community support and engagement, and part of enterprise zones. I totally agree that skills and the need for capacity-building. Therefore, we support training are vital to the future of commerce and local the Government in continuing to seek to put the areas. The enterprise zones employ special business community and community groups at the heart of rates. Local enterprise partnerships, mentioned by the regeneration. This is nothing new. However, the ability right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Birmingham and of communities to respond is clearly being hampered the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, are beginning to by cuts to regeneration funding and the savage cuts to work very well. As always with new things, some will local authority budgets. The Select Committee report do better than others, but many enterprise partnerships mentions that many of the community groups most closely are now fully engaged with local authorities, businesses involved in regeneration are uncertain about their future. and civic leaders across the country and they are Funding will always be difficult, but it has been the involving their local communities. I want to emphasise speed of withdrawal that has created special problems. this all the time. Regeneration is about local and local We have seen the demise of RDAs and the termination people, communities, businesses and authorities need of the working neighbourhoods fund and the local to be taking the initiative in what has to be done while enterprise growth initiative. It is acknowledged that having the background to be able to do it. there are new funding streams, but the Select Committee We are supporting small businesses by cutting suggests that these—the new homes bonus, the regional bureaucracy and addressing their challenges. We are growth fund and the investment in rail—are perhaps supporting housing regeneration with a commitment not focused primarily on regeneration. to bringing empty homes back into productive use. We There is concern that, by concentrating on growth are still investing over £6.5 billion in housing, including and the provision of levers to facilitate this, the over £2 billion to make existing social homes decent, Government are skewing the regeneration effort and and we are continuing with the programme of investment not doing enough to tackle the broader and multifaceted through the European regional development fund. issues that comprise deprivation—issues that affect More than 45,000 jobs have been created or safeguarded the north-west, east London and, indeed, all parts of and nearly 10,000 businesses have been created already. the UK. Notwithstanding their commitment to localism, So there is plenty for people to build on and I want to they should produce a national regeneration strategy reassure noble Lords that the Government are fully that encompasses the broader issues of health inequalities, committed to regeneration and see it as essential, both skills gaps, the prevalence of crime, worklessness and in city areas and, as the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, poor housing: a strategy that shares the benefits of said, in rural areas, which in many ways often need as community engagement, partnership working, local much help as the city areas. leadership and working with the private sector—indeed, However, the Government do not believe that they a proper strategy for regeneration. should dictate to local authorities. One of the things that has gone wrong in the past is that it is all being 8.47 pm done on top of them. We want to make certain that local authorities and local enterprise partnerships know The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department what their community wants and needs and then that for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham): they have the tools to deal with it. We do not want to My Lords, I expected this to be a well informed and plan and prescribe but we do want to help local people interesting debate. If I may say so, it is an unusual to get things done. It would be fair to say that in the debate for this House, and it is one that perhaps we north-west and in east London there has been and is ought to repeat more frequently. I thank the noble really strong leadership. I have had the pleasure of Lord, Lord Mawson, for having generated it. I acknowledge going up to the north-west to Manchester, Sheffield immediately, as many others have done, that it is his and Liverpool within the past year or so and I am own role, particularly in the East End of London, and astounded at the progress that has been made there his own experience that make him such a powerful and the changes that have come about. Some of that voice in these areas. I also thank all other noble Lords has been to do with European funds, some has been to who have taken part in the debate. do with government funds and a whole lot has been to Although the speeches have concentrated mainly, do with the leadership that has made sure that those as one would expect, on the north-west of England local areas are put to rights, replacing the industries and on east London, the question was: what are the that have gone and starting to look to the future. 315 Regeneration[27 JUNE 2012] Regeneration 316

There is an extraordinary scale of regeneration Turning to the comments of the noble Baroness, taking place, particularly in the north-west and the Lady Hughes, about the north-west, I think that I said Olympic area. In both the areas being discussed today how impressed I was by what has been going on there. a large part of what has happened has been based on She asked a couple of specific questions, one of which sport. Manchester hosted the Commonwealth Games was about broadband. I am fumbling around with too 10 years ago and east London, of course, is doing the many bits of paper here. I cannot give the exact Olympics now. In east London the Government have position on broadband but the European regional made significant long-term investment and are supporting development fund has recently been opened up and a transport infrastructure as well as the developments the north-west is one of the areas that will benefit in delivered by the London Thames Gateway Development terms of broadband. I am not certain when it will start Corporation and all the other developments. My noble but I will let the noble Baroness know. Money is friend Lord King rightly drew attention to the fact available for that and it should come round in the not that all this started with the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, too distant future. There is not only Manchester; there and the noble Lord, Lord King, himself. They were is the Sheffield enterprise zone. The right reverend great visionaries determined to see things change. Prelate the Bishop of Birmingham referred to Liverpool That again was the catalyst. and other places and the regional development areas The Olympic host borough unit is a good example there. The noble Lord, Lord Storey, painted a brilliant of how joint working between boroughs and agencies picture of Liverpool and what has happened to it. It can bring about change. It is developing a concerted has one of the finest marine areas which is becoming plan to tackle the long-standing deprivation in the such a success story. I am not in the least pessimistic boroughs affected, especially raising the skills and about what is going on. In fact, I am enormously education of local people, and the long-term worklessness encouraged because not only is regeneration being that has blighted families for too long. I think that galvanised but it will carry on because local people will proper attention was given to the mayor of Newham want to ensure that their particular areas are improved. who has been very instrumental in what is going on. I have about a minute and a half so I shall quickly The challenge on convergence and the idea that deal with issues raised. The noble Lord, Lord Mawson, within 20 years communities that host the 2012 Olympic asked who is responsible when the Games end. Of Games will have the same social and economic chances course, that is the Mayor of London. It will be entirely as their neighbours across London is embedded within within his remit and the new London Legacy Development the strategic regeneration framework. There is a clear Corporation particularly. On the issue of international action plan to achieve this. It distils an existing set of trains not stopping at Stratford, we know there is an strategies created by local agencies and the Government aspiration that they should, but a decision to do so is into a coherent common agenda to get local residents clearly a business case. If that is made out, I hope that into jobs and to extend their life expectancy. It is not one or two will stop there. There are lots of aspirations an ethereal concept as working towards convergence for Thames crossings and I am sure we will all be has brought about tangible success stories—not just sitting on the cable car to make sure that we can get the schools, health centre and multi-million pound from one place to another. retail centre within the park but the regeneration of I agree with the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Stratford High Street, to which the noble Lord, Lord Birmingham that the twin-engine approach is right. Mawson, referred, the improvements to the public We need to improve skills and life chances alongside realm, and the development at Strand East. Convergence physical regeneration. I have said that and it is obvious is demanding but not easy to achieve. to me that there is not much point in having new The handing over of the Olympic park is another buildings if we do not give employment and training example of how the Government have helped facilitate to local people. I have been handed a note telling me an alliance between the mayor and the Olympic host that I have run out of time. It says, “Time up!”, so if I boroughs, enabling him to set up the London Legacy have not dealt properly with any of the points raised Development Corporation. That will be the carry on and questions asked, I will write to noble Lords. I am after the Olympics and it is really important that the sorry that we have not quite had time to wind up the legacy of the LLDC does its job. We will all have to debate in the best way possible, but I thank all noble ensure that it does—as I am sure it will. It is under the Lords again for a fascinating hour and a half. eye of the mayor now and it will be very much in his interests that it is satisfactorily completed. House adjourned at 9 pm.

GC 125 Arrangement of Business[27 JUNE 2012] Civil Aviation Bill GC 126

that London is not open for business. I think that they Grand Committee are trying to hijack any debate and the forthcoming White Paper to try to concentrate on what they see as Wednesday, 27 June 2012. the problem—how they can get more planes at Heathrow, which in turn will give them more income. Arrangement of Business Regional airports could well take up the challenge Announcement as Gatwick has done since it was divested from BAA. Noble Lords will probably be aware that Gatwick now has two direct flights to China, one to South Korea, 4.45 pm one to Nigeria and one to Hong Kong. That is only The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness the beginning to building up an international business, McIntosh of Hudnall): My Lords, I begin by reminding and I believe—and I have been to several airports—that the Committee that if there is a Division in the Chamber Birmingham, with all the committed money being while the Committee is sitting, we shall adjourn as spent there, will offer passengers a wide range of soon as the Division Bells are heard and resume possibilities when they travel. For example, most airport 10 minutes thereafter. users or people who use the lines, cite the fact that Stansted Express is not a very good, efficient or comfortable way in which to get to London. In fact, if Civil Aviation Bill you consider the Lee valley, the whole service needs Committee revision. It needs money spent on the infrastructure, and it is one of the areas that I hope the Government 4.46 pm may have something to say about in the high-level output statement for the railways which I believe they Relevant documents: 4th Report from the Delegated are due to publish next month. Powers Committee The impact of HS2—if it is built—on Birmingham airport would be huge and would bring it within Clause 1 : CAA’s general duty 38 minutes of London, which is equivalent to what Gatwick is now and what Heathrow is for most people. The real point that has been made to me, particularly Amendment 1 by people at Gatwick, is that passengers from airports Moved by Lord Bradshaw do not mix well with passengers who are commuting 1: Clause 1, page 1, line 10, at end insert “and in the provision on a regular basis. For example, if trains emanating of surface transport access” from Brighton arrive at Gatwick full of commuters and a lot of Americans with heavy luggage who have never been here before are on the platform, they Lord Bradshaw: In moving Amendment 1, I shall cannot be accommodated comfortably on the service speak also to Amendment 10. These amendments that is provided. That is why I was pleased to see the relate to the surface access to the airports, which is of debate yesterday in the House of Commons on this course very important, not just for people who fly but matter. It was raised by Henry Smith, the MP for for people who work there and residents. So I am not Crawley, who said that it is very necessary that the entering a plea especially for airline passengers but for whole question of access to airports is brought into everybody who uses those modes of access in getting focus. It is definitely on the radar of the department. there. In this debate, reference was made to the fact that the Some figures published this morning show that new Southern franchise will be let, and it will be up to pollution arising from aeroplanes is reducing quite the franchisees what they want to do. I think they sharply as bigger and more efficient aeroplanes take might need a little guidance. It is not just the train over. That brings into focus the need to tackle the services; it is the trains themselves because many of higher level of both noise and atmospheric pollution the trains in use on the railway are pretty unsuitable that comes from surface access to airports. I want to for people with heavy luggage. stress the point that we must do something about surface access. I know that there are many ideas about If I am correct, it is only the regulated airports that it—it is probably becoming more important than the need any requirement for improvements to be included aircraft themselves. in the regulations. This is so that they can be included within their regulatory asset base. I do not want any I do not intend to turn this debate into an argument situation to arise in a regulated airport where any about the third runway in Heathrow, but I want to airline might legally escape paying its share of any draw attention to the large amount of spare runway improvements that are made to surface access. I hope capacity that exists or is planned to exist at Gatwick, the Minister can give me an assurance that once this Stansted, Birmingham and Luton airports and in change is made everything will go into the wrap. other regions of the country. The four airports that I mentioned particularly affect the south-east. If it were Licensed airports, which are a different lot, can do exploited, that would reduce the clamour about demand whatever they consider to be commercially attractive. at Heathrow, which is being fed mainly by BA and In many cases, this will mean help with investments by BAA which have substantial financial interests in it. other transport providers to produce mutually beneficial I am particularly anxious about the damaging and schemes and from local authorities keen to promote expensive campaign that they are running, which suggests regional airports. These airports do not need the regulator GC 127 Civil Aviation Bill[LORDS] Civil Aviation Bill GC 128

[LORD BRADSHAW] There is also the issue that my noble friend Lord to intervene, as I see it, so the intervention may come Soley raised on surface access and whether the CAA is from government or from local authorities which are the best organisation to do this. He might be right or keen to invest in improvements. Birmingham airport wrong but there is a similar concern with ports and stressed to me that it feels that if the huge spare airports: who pays for the infrastructure and who capacity it has is used, it would bring a lot of development decides? I thought that the general policy of successive with it. In that case, you have an airport that is willing Governments was that the private-sector operator of to accommodate any improvement. an airport or port invested within the boundary of the I hope the Minister can give me the assurances that facility and then expected the state, local or regional I seek and will endorse the fact that the improvement authorities, or someone, to contribute to the cost of of surface access is extremely important and is becoming access, except when there was a Section 106-type more so as time goes on. I beg to move. agreement. We certainly got into a knot in the ports sector. Sometimes there was state aid available for some things and sometimes there was not. Lord Soley: The noble Lord might be surprised that We got into a right old knot with Heathrow over I am not entirely unsympathetic to what he is trying to the years. BAA contributed to the cost of building the achieve but I do not think that he is trying to achieve it Heathrow Express line and operating the trains. It did in the best way. I will not focus on his comments about not seem to want the Heathrow Express trains to go Gatwick managing to be a hub or otherwise, although down the Crossrail tunnel, which most people would I think that if you told the people around Gatwick have thought would have made a very good piece of that we were to move Heathrow’s operation there, they public transport planning, so it will not go down it. might be a little less enthusiastic than the airport I was told by some people from BAA yesterday that owners. the reason for that—they confirmed this—was that I think the noble Lord is right that there is a the most important customers who use the Heathrow problem about surface access to airports generally. Express, particularly in first class, do not like going However, it is not my view that the CAA is the best into tunnels because their BlackBerry does not work. organisation to do this—the Minister will tell us what They would rather go from Paddington to Canary he thinks. This flags up the problem which a number Wharf in a taxi, where they can still play with their of us have referred to over many years: we lack an BlackBerry. Frankly, that is a farcical argument. It was effective regional government structure in Britain that suggested that if there was a first-class carriage in could provide the surface transport necessary around Crossrail and it went straight to Heathrow, people airports, as well as some of the other regional might use it. This attitude will adversely affect the infrastructure that we need. The noble Lord is right future public transport and surface access into Heathrow. that we end up doing things in a hit-and-miss way, I hope it will change its attitude; it has certainly said with a bit here and a bit there, and then join it up that it will look at the situation. afterwards. Heathrow Express came in but was that really the best idea when we had Crossrail coming? 5pm There are a lot of oddities in there. In my judgment, However, who decides? Is it the airport? And who and I will be interested to hear what the Minister says pays—because once a body has paid for it, it will, to on this, if we asked the CAA to suddenly become the some extent, have a right to a say in what happens and organisation that has to comment on and recommend what gets built. I am confused as to what will happen. surface infrastructure we, will need a much larger If in future the three main London airports, plus organisation than the current CAA. Luton, are owned by different companies, which may well happen, who decides what surface access—which Lord Berkeley: We have heard two interesting speeches. we all agree is important—will be built and who will I have a lot of sympathy with the amendment but what pay for it? I am not sure whether it should be the CAA concerns me is starting off on the basis that this would but, if it is not, who should it be? add to the regulatory duties in Clause 1. Regulatory The sooner we have a consistent policy across all duties are terribly important issues for a regulator to airports and ports on the extent of government take into account. I have had certain experiences with involvement, the private sector, which is spending a the Office of Rail Regulation over the years. Reminding great deal of money on these matters, will feel a lot it of its duties can be a good way of making sure that more comforted. I look forward to hearing what the it remembers and acts on them. Minister has to say. Of course, Clause 1(2) says that the CAA must carry out its functions, Lord Trefgarne: I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord “in a manner which it considers will promote competition in the Bradshaw, for not being in my place when he began his provision of airport operation services”. remarks. I missed about 90 seconds. I am not clear on what we are talking about when it I recognise the importance of surface access to the comes to competition. This is something that will major airports and I acknowledge that to Stansted, for recur in later amendments. Is it competition between example, it is not as good as it should be. I hope it can those airports included in the scheme in the south-east, be improved. However, I am reluctant, for the reasons or all airports, or competition for the provision of expressed by the noble Lords, Lord Soley and Lord services within an airport? If it is the latter, this seems Berkeley, to impose this duty on the Civil Aviation a big sledgehammer to crack a nut. When the Minister Authority. I hope the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, will replies, maybe he can put me right on that. not press his amendment. GC 129 Civil Aviation Bill[27 JUNE 2012] Civil Aviation Bill GC 130

Lord Clinton-Davis: The lack of clarity on this While I am in some sympathy with my noble friend’s point has been demonstrated today by my noble friend amendment, I am not able to support it for the reasons and by some noble Lords opposite. It is not permissible that I and others have mentioned, that it cannot that this situation should prevail. I hope that the possibly be the responsibility of the CAA to have to Minister will be able to demonstrate that the issues make provision for surface access in the way that the that have been raised will be tackled by the Government amendment suggests. in due course. It is totally unsatisfactory that this position should be allowed to remain. Lord Berkeley: Before the noble Lord sits down, perhaps I may press him a little further on what he Lord Jenkin of Roding: My noble friend will know said with respect to the proposed airport in the Thames that I have been pressing him to consider, in the Estuary—that it could apply anywhere. As the context of HS2, the possibility of an extension around Government want, and as is suggested in this Bill, the north London to reach the possible future hub airport airports are effectively in competition with each other. in the Thames Estuary. This issue has been pressed not If they then want to expand, they will have to apply least by Foster + Partners, whose imaginative scheme for planning permission in some way or another, then is now the front runner for a Thames Estuary airport. demonstrate what transport plans they have, and who Of course, communications and surface access will be will pay for them. That will then go back to the important problems there. Government, who will decide which development happens where according to whether they are prepared to pay While I have sympathy with what my noble friend for the transport links. Is that the way the noble Lord Lord Bradshaw said about the desirability of improving thinks it should happen? surface access, that could not conceivably be a function of the CAA. I agree with those who have argued that. It must be a function for the Department of Transport Lord Jenkin of Roding: Certainly, the question of because, after all, it concerns the railways. paying for it would have to be considered in some detail. The great advantage of the Foster + Partners proposal as put forward is that they recognise that this Lord Clinton-Davis: And local authorities. would be financed not by the taxpayer but by investment which they would attract perhaps from around the world. There should be a great deal of investment Lord Jenkin of Roding: I think the local authorities interest in a project of this kind. The noble Lord, Lord would have some difficulty planning together an orbital Berkeley, is absolutely right, of course, that when this railway joining up the HS2 to HS1, with a branch to a goes to the IPC or its successor, this is precisely the potential Thames Estuary airport. It is a very imaginative sort of thing that would need to be demonstrated, scheme. along with all the other things that the planning Having lived with the concept of a Thames Estuary system requires. If, however, the Department for Transport airport for about 20 years, the first proposal put is unable to meet the proponents of such a scheme, it forward for it envisaged an orbital rail link around the will start with not one but two hands behind its back. north of London. In which case, therefore, you do not That is why I have pressed my noble friend to say that have a situation where people have to come right into in the context of the HS2 consultation he will meet the London and cross from one station to another in people concerned, and I very much hope that his order to get out to their airport. There is a substantial officials will feel that it is appropriate for him to do so. issue here; however, as I said a moment ago, I cannot see that this could be a function of the Civil Aviation Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the Minister’s Authority. It has issues that go much wider than what worst nightmare must have been fulfilled from this falls within their level of responsibility. One would opening debate—namely, because the Committee has, suspect also the competence of the advice that they quite appropriately, addressed itself to what the have—it must be from my honourable friends in the amendment says about surface transport, and of course Department for Transport. that then gives a wide range of exciting prospects on Perhaps I could ask one question. I have asked my how we could improve surface transport. I will put my noble friend if he would meet some of the people who three penn’orth in if I may. Manchester Airport is very are proposing to put forward the case for the extension eager that the metro should be part of its facilities. It is of the HS1—HS2 to go around the north of London— some distance away at present. The airport is certainly and he has undertaken to consider whether that would prepared to face a proportion of the costs. We have be appropriate. I hope I do not misrepresent him. heard the anxieties and proposals for the necessary I wonder whether he is yet able to give me an answer: improvement to surface transport to our airports expressed can he meet those who have done a great deal of work in very cogent terms. The danger is that that will open on this subject and would be able to offer very valuable up a very wide-ranging discussion, as we have heard. advice that may well not be available within the The Minister may have the obvious consolation, Department for Transport itself? which the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, and I identified, It cannot be right for Ministers to keep at arm’s that most of these issues cannot possibly be covered length, as it were, outside expert evidence that could by an extension to the remit of the CAA. We are greatly improve the quality of their decision-making. largely talking about transport projects of the greatest It arises only peripherally from this amendment, but significance, linking our major centres of population we are talking about surface access, and therefore it is to our airports through improvements, which are certainly highly relevant. necessary to all the London airports. Apart from GC 131 Civil Aviation Bill[LORDS] Civil Aviation Bill GC 132

[LORD DAVIES OF OLDHAM] legislation that governs airport economic regulation, Birmingham, which already boasts excellent rail the Airports Act 1986, specifically Section 39(2)(a). communication and has great expectations for HS2, However, the duty in the Airports Act 1986 is not all airports recognise that the ease with which people limited to furthering the interests of the users of air can arrive at them is absolutely critical to the experience transport services in terms of the range, availability and choice of travelling by air. However, as the noble and so forth of airport operation services, as is our Lord, Lord Jenkin, indicated, I doubt that this substantial primary duty in this Bill. There is a very good reason range of transport issues is meant to be laid at the for this. Under the Airports Act, the CAA has limited door of the CAA. I imagine that the Minister, while functions—for example, it must set five-year price commenting constructively, as I hope he will, in response controls. Under the Bill, the CAA has broad powers to to Members of the Committee on ideas for improving make licence conditions. It would not be appropriate connections, will say that this is not a matter with for the CAA to have such wide duties with these which we can directly charge the CAA. licence-making powers, since the CAA would have extraordinarily wide discretion to impose licence Earl Attlee: My Lords, as we have heard today, conditions. In principle, anything furthering passengers’ surface transport access is a very important concern interests could be allowable, even on matters wholly for our major airports—not just regulated ones but unrelated to airport economic regulation. non-regulated airports, too. I am grateful to my noble I turn back to the impact of the new primary duty friend Lord Bradshaw for enabling us to debate this on surface access. My right honourable friend the topic today. Minister of State for Transport reassured the House My noble friend is certainly correct to say that of Commons Public Bill Committee that the Bill does without good transport access, it will not be possible allow the CAA to permit investment in surface access for our airports to maintain their strong position by regulated airports. I will reiterate this point for the compared to their European counterparts, and that benefit of my noble friend Lord Bradshaw and the we must ensure that people using our airports have Committee. If a surface access investment furthers access to a range of options for getting to and from the interests of passengers and cargo owners in the them. That is why the Government have put a heavy provision of airport operation services, the Bill does emphasis on the importance of high-quality public not prevent this investment from being included in the transport to our airports. It is one of the reasons why airport’s regulatory settlement. Thameslink will deliver considerable improvements to However, I also agree with the noble Lord, Lord access at Gatwick. It is why HS2 and Crossrail will, in Soley, and others, that it is not the CAA’s role to plan the future, deliver important improvements at Heathrow, surface access enhancements—for example, to require and it is why the upgrade of London Underground an HS2 spur. The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, made will further enhance access to Heathrow. some interesting comments about surface access. Clearly, My noble friend Lord Bradshaw touched on the the wider network issues are a matter for the HLOS, problems of the Gatwick Express. When I visited referred to by my noble friend Lord Bradshaw. My Gatwick Airport, the management certainly made that noble friend Lord Jenkin asked about the Thames point to me very strongly. Estuary Airport and a high-speed rail link. Because YourLordships will also be aware that the Government we are just about to issue a consultation, I am advised are seeking to invest in improving access to non-regulated that I am constrained as to who I can see. However, I airports through regional growth funding, including, undertake to verify this point with the Permanent for example, by upgrading junction 10A of the M1 Secretary at the Department for Transport. near Luton and through realigning and tunnelling a section of the A45 to facilitate the extension of Birmingham Airport’s runway.The Government recognise Lord Jenkin of Roding: I seek an explanation for the vital contributions that regional airports make to this point, which my noble friend has also made to me local economies and that regional connectivity is in private. If the department is engaged in a consultation, important, as explained by my noble friend Lord why on earth should a Minister who is answerable for Bradshaw. the department not meet some of the people who The amendments seek to expand the scope of CAA’s would have valuable advice to offer on a proposal, primary duty for its airport economic regulation functions which they wish to put forward? How can it possibly to meet this point. Specifically, the primary duty is be right for a department to conduct a consultation expanded by putting the provision of surface access and shut itself off from outside expert evidence? I do links on an equal footing with airport operation services. not understand my noble friend’s explanation. Given the importance of surface access, I sympathise with the thinking behind this amendment. It is important that regulated airports can invest in surface transport Earl Attlee: My noble friend makes very good access in so far as their unregulated counterparts points, and they are the ones put to the Permanent would be able to do so. Secretary at the department. However, I have to accept the advice that I am given. 5.15 pm Noble Lords will have noticed that the primary Lord Berkeley: How can the department consult duty in the Bill contains elements of what is to found with outside bodies if it does not meet any outside in the first of the CAA’s four duties in the current bodies? GC 133 Civil Aviation Bill[27 JUNE 2012] Civil Aviation Bill GC 134

Earl Attlee: My Lords, Ministers spend all their Clauses 1 and 2 of the Bill. I will direct my comments time consulting with outside bodies. However, at some to the Civil Aviation Authority’s general duty though point they are advised that it is inappropriate to meet the argument is the same in respect of the Secretary of them. I have agreed with my noble friend that I will State’s general duty. take this up with the Permanent Secretary. Under Clause 1(1), the CAA must carry out its The noble Lord, Lord Davies, mentioned Manchester. functions under Chapter 1 of the Bill, The noble Lord will recognise that Manchester is not a “in a manner which it considers will further the interests of users regulated airport. If it decided to contribute to a of air transport services regarding the range, availability, continuity, surface access scheme, it could recover the costs from cost and quality of airport operation services”. its customers if the market would bear it. However, Subsection (2) goes on to say that: that is of course a commercial matter for the airport. “The CAA must do so, where appropriate, by carrying out the Clause 19(6) provides that “a price control condition” functions in a manner which it considers will promote competition may be made, in the provision of airport operation services”. “by reference to the amount charged for particular goods or This amendment adds to the end of that, services”, “but only where this will not conflict with its ability to carry out or, its functions in a manner set out in subsection (1)”. “to the overall amount charged for a range of goods or services”. In the absence of any definition of what “where Clause 19 does not specify the mechanics of setting appropriate” in subsection (2) is intended to mean or the price control and leaves the CAA with flexibility to how it is to be interpreted in the context of the Bill, take whatever approach seems most appropriate within there appears to be an assumption in subsection (2) the framework provided by Clauses 1 and 18(1). that promoting competition in the provision of airport Specifically, this flexibility, combined with the provision operation services will further the interests of users of in Clause 21(1)(f) which states that licensed activities air transport services. Promoting competition does may relate, not necessarily further the interests of users of air transport services regarding range, availability, continuity, “to activities carried on outside the airport area”, cost and quality because it can lead to a reduction in will not prohibit the CAA from taking into account range, availability, continuity, cost and quality in a bid costs from outside the airport area, such as from rail to either reduce costs or sustain profit margins, or links, where appropriate when setting a price control. achieve both objectives. However, given the importance of this issue, the The amendment seeks to ensure that the requirement Government will reflect on the debate and specifically to promote competition, will consider further whether any extension to the “by carrying out the functions in a manner which it considers will primary duty to make special provision in respect of promote competition in the provision of airport operation services”, rail and road links to the airport is necessary or does not apply where the Civil Aviation Authority desirable. I hope that I have provided my noble friend considers that to do so would conflict with its primary with the reassurance he seeks, particularly that the responsibility of furthering, Government will consider the amendment further and if appropriate bring forward an amendment on Report. “the interests of users of air transport services”. It would surely be unacceptable for the CAA to have Lord Bradshaw: I just add the fact that the airport is to carry out its functions in a manner that it considers often the primary reason why the surface links are would promote competition when to do so would needed but many people benefit from them. I am not conflict with what is presumably its key responsibility suggesting that the airport should pay the whole cost to further the interests of air transport services, as set but a proportion. If its regulatory asset base is linked out in subsection (1), rather than the interests of the to that, the airport needs to make sure that it can providers of airport operation services. That would collect money from the airlines using the airport. I am defeat what appears to be a declared objective in the most anxious that the cost of the facilities should be a Bill for the Civil Aviation Authority as set out in charge on the airlines as well as any another beneficiaries. subsection (1). I am not saying that the airlines should pay the whole I hope the Minister will accept the amendment. but a proportion of the cost of the new facilities. With However, if he does not intend to do so, I hope that he that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. will indicate the current wording in the Bill which will prevent the CAA having to carry out its functions in a Amendment 1 withdrawn. manner which it considers will promote competition in the provision of airport operation services if it felt that to do so would conflict with its duty to carry out Amendment 2 its function in a manner which it considers will further Moved by Lord Rosser the interests of users of air transport services. The answer may be that the Government simply believe 2: Clause 1, page 1, line 13, at end insert “but only where this that promoting competition cannot not be in the will not conflict with its ability to carry out its functions in a interests of users of air transport services, which would manner set out in subsection (1)” be a remarkable view. Alternatively, it may be that the Minister will say that the words “where appropriate” Lord Rosser: This amendment and Amendment 13 in subsection (2) give the Civil Aviation Authority the relate to the Civil Aviation Authority’s general duty power to decide that it will not promote competition and the Secretary of State’s general duty, as set out in in the provision of airport operation services because GC 135 Civil Aviation Bill[LORDS] Civil Aviation Bill GC 136

[LORD ROSSER] it does not seem in the least inappropriate that the Bill to do so would conflict with its duty under subsection should state at the very beginning that the general (1) to carry out its functions in a manner which it duties of the CAA should include one to promote considers will further the interests of air transport competition. services. If that is the case, the Minister should give a The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked what the meaning detailed explanation of what the words “where of the words “where appropriate”was. I give an example appropriate” mean in the context of the provisions of from the debate on the previous group of amendments. subsections (1) and (2) and how they should be interpreted Does competition mean competition only between and applied by the Civil Aviation Authority. I beg to airports or competition between terminals in the same move. airport? I would have had no difficulty whatever in arguing that it should not conceivably be competition Lord Soley: I have sympathy with my noble friend. between the terminals of the same airport, which are However, I do not have any answers to the problem. It under the same management and which one would is very difficult. A clause such as Clause 1 imposes expect to be run in such a way as to provide the best certain duties on an organisation—in this case the complementary service for the entire airport for the CAA—which is a normal format in Bills that become benefit of users and freight operators. Therefore, it law. However, what troubles me about such clauses—and would be quite easy to say that of course competition it is not only in this one, although it happens here between terminals would not be appropriate, while too—is that there is a lack of clarity, as my noble competition between airports certainly should be. As I friend has pinpointed. say, we will come later to how that might be applied Subsection (3)(b) has the catch-all phrase that, and enforced. “the need to secure that all reasonable demands for airport However, subsection (2) as originally drafted is operation services are met”. perfectly reasonable. When I read the amendment that There is one of these provisions in almost all the Bills noble Lords had tabled to the subsection, it aroused in of this type that I know. It is put in in case we have me the very unworthy thought that perhaps they do forgotten something that the CAA may want or ought not think that competition is good for users. Competition to do. It covers just about everything from whether the must be absolutely at the heart of the benefit to users, coffee machine works to whether you have good services for the purposes of both the quality of service and in other more fundamental ways. keeping costs down. That is what it is about. If the noble Lord wishes to press his amendment when we I wonder at times whether we are being clear with get to Report stage, I have to say that I would be firmly the operator. Presumably the CAA is happy with the opposed to it. clause—I assume that it is; I have not heard anything to the contrary—but I wonder about the clarity of its operation if this becomes law, as it almost certainly Earl Attlee: If the amendments sought to include a will. Does the CAA have enough clarity to know what requirement that the CAA must promote competition its duties are if someone challenges it? A catch-all only where it is consistent with the interests of passengers phrase such as that in subsection (3)(b)—that the and owners of cargo, I would thoroughly agree with CAA has to meet the reasonable demands for airport their intent. However, the presence of the words “where operation services—means that it can say in certain appropriate” in the primary duty in Clause 1(2) already circumstances that it does not think that a particular achieves the intent of the noble Lord, Lord Rosser. demand is reasonable. It could rely on the phrase if it Any further changes are therefore unnecessary. The received a legal challenge from someone or some noble Lord asked me for a definition of “where organisation. appropriate” but neither the CAA nor the appeal bodies would have any difficulty in working out what It is a general point but sometimes we are casual it means. with our legislation and put in catch-all clauses and subsections. We are saying to the operator that it can Broadly speaking, the primary duty provides for do what it likes within certain limits. It may be challenged the CAA to carry out its airport economic regulation in law, although that is unlikely, and this clause is there functions in a way that will further the interests of in case it is needed. It is a catch-all clause and my passengers and owners of cargo. The primary duty noble friend is right to raise this matter as a lack-of-clarity also states that the CAA must do so, where appropriate, issue. by promoting competition in the provision of airport operation services. This means that it will not be appropriate to promote competition if it is not in the 5.30 pm interests of passengers and owners of cargo. Clearly, Lord Jenkin of Roding: I am puzzled by the the CAA will have to balance the issues listed in amendment. It is absolutely at the heart of an economic subsection (1)—for instance, cost and quality. There is regulator’s job in the general context of government a balance to be struck and it is the duty of the CAA to policy, as it has been under successive Governments, strike it on behalf of passengers and owners of cargo. that you can give an organisation, perfectly properly, a As the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, recognised, these duty to promote competition. Indeed, in the past, duties would also apply to the Secretary of State. competition between the various airports has been a Therefore, the intent of the amendment is already major feature of our airport structure. We will come implicit in the primary duty and any further changes later to the relationship between the CAA, the would be superfluous. I hope that this provides your Competition Commission and the other bodies that Lordships with the reassurance required and that the are required by statute to promote competition. However, noble Lord, Lord Rosser, will withdraw his amendment. GC 137 Civil Aviation Bill[27 JUNE 2012] Civil Aviation Bill GC 138

Lord Rosser: I thank the Minister for his response The Bill before your Lordships’ House is, regrettably, and my noble friend Lord Soley and the noble Lord, limited in its scope. Its principal focus is on the economic Lord Jenkin of Roding, for their contributions to the regulation of major airports, but it goes little further, debate. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, placing new duties on the Civil Aviation Authority in rather misunderstood the wording of the amendment respect of airline passengers and owners of air cargo. or what I said. I did not seek to remove from subsection (2) Unfortunately, these new regulatory duties will, if the words that related acting in a way that promoted enacted in their present form, ignore other sectors of competition. The purpose of my amendment was to UK aviation. Consequently, the Bill may, in fact, sow make sure that there could not be a conflict between the seeds of potentially damaging developments that subsections (1) and (2) by making sure that if there would impact on those other sectors. In particular, was a conflict, subsection (1) would prevail. That was they will have potentially serious implications for the designed so that activities would be carried out in a growth and sustainability of the general and business way that would be beneficial to the users of air transport aviation industry and community, which contribute so services. much to the economy of the UK, and which have the In his response, the Minister has taken one of the potential to contribute so much more to helping us, as lines that I had suggested he might take in the contribution a nation, to move out of our present predicaments. If I made—namely, that he has argued that the words airport regulation is framed for the benefit of the air “where appropriate” in subsection (2) already achieve transport user, as it is in the Bill, the inevitable consequence the objective that I sought to achieve with my amendment. will be the creeping exclusion of the other sectors of In other words, that if it is considered that there is a civil aviation and general and business aviation. conflict between subsections (1) and (2), then—as I This trend is already evident. I travel widely as a understand it from what the Minister has said—the private pilot and find that the provisions for general Civil Aviation Authority, using the words “where and business aviation in many other countries put appropriate”, would be able to argue that subsection (1) ours to shame. I am therefore bringing forward simple took priority, because that is the primary responsibility. and straightforward amendments to protect and promote If I have understood the Minister correctly—and what general and business aviation and to ensure that this he said as to how this should be interpreted is now on important sector continues to use our major airports. the record—then I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. This objective can be ensured by giving the CAA a Amendment 2 withdrawn. specific duty to consider general and business aviation in its regulation of major airports. Amendment 3 General and business aviation is important. It includes any civilian aircraft operation other than a commercial Moved by Lord Rotherwick air transport flight operating to a schedule. It represents 3: Clause 1, page 2, line 7, at end insert— a multi-billion pound industry in the UK, from executive “( ) the need to secure that the reasonable needs and business jets through flying training and air ambulances interests of general and business aviation are promoted to private aircraft operators and pilots. A 2009 study and safeguarded,” by PricewaterhouseCoopers on the total value of this Lord Rotherwick: My Lords, I beg to move sector found that its contribution to the UK economy Amendment 3. I shall speak also to Amendments 9 was £3.7 billion, equivalent to 0.2% of UK economic and 11—the latter of which seeks to introduce a new activity, with around 50,000 people directly employed. clause after Clause 1. First, I would like to apologise The review also identified that of the 27,000 UK-registered to the Minister for not being able to speak at the aircraft, only 4% were commercial air transport aircraft. Second Reading; and, secondly, I declare my interest We have a Bill before us—the first in a generation, as a private pilot and an aircraft owner. I also declare although I hope it will not be the last—that neglects an interest as a director of the Light Aviation Association, 96% of UK-registered aircraft and concerns itself which serves the interests of sports and recreational with only those few airports that enjoy a dominant powered flying in the UK, and as vice president of the market position. It does not address the needs or General Aviation Alliance, a body that co-ordinates interests of the general and business aviation community regulatory interests of various UK aviation associations, or make any attempt to regulate the activities of the thus representing a co-ordinated position for their majority of the airports on which this important pilots, aircraft owners and operators. Moreover, to sector depends. demonstrate that the LAA is not a pressure group, but The Parliament of the European Union recently a body that knows of what it speaks, the LAA is itself issued a valuable resolution, 2008/2134, which I commend a regulatory body, exercising functions delegated to it to the Minister and to the Committee, calling on by the CAA in respect of a huge range of general member states to adopt policies promoting growth aviation aircraft. and sustainability in general and business aviation. This Bill does not provide us with a comprehensive The Government have, as yet, made no significant new legal framework to replace the whole of the Civil response to this resolution. However, this Bill is a Aviation Act 1982. Some may lament the fact, given perfect vehicle. It provides the opportunity, with some that this is the first Bill to address this area of policy in slight amendment consistent with its general principles, a generation. It is not as though the ground has not to make a worthwhile start. This would entail recognising been prepared. Considerable effort has been expended in legislation that general and business aviation has a in recent years in examinations and analysis of the place at our airports and that its needs and interests role and function of the CAA in preparation for a should be promoted and sustained by the CAA alongside more comprehensive piece of legislation. those of air transport users. GC 139 Civil Aviation Bill[LORDS] Civil Aviation Bill GC 140

[LORD ROTHERWICK] I do not intend to detain the Committee further in The amendments I propose to Clause 1 are modest developing my argument: I have made my case. I and a reasonable modification of the regulatory functions repeat my offer to the Minister and I look forward to of the CAA, yet they have the potential to bring about his response. I beg to move. a substantial improvement in the operating environment for general and business aviation, which would reap Lord Berkeley: My Lords, I do not know what the rewards for business, industry, UK competitiveness scope of general and business aviation covers but what and the financial health of the country. It will not be about the increasing number of hot air balloons that lost on my noble friend the Minister that the amendments go around the country? Some are quite high; some are merely extend the functions of the CAA in respect of propelled, some are not; some make noise—I do not operators of dominant airports. I regret that the narrow think it is as serious a problem as surface noise, to scope of the Bill precludes an amendment to include which the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, referred earlier— all airports, which would be ideal. Although amendments but they should not go anywhere near airports. What that I would prefer to have tabled are outside the scope regulation is there for them if they get near airports of the Bill, they are within its spirit and philosophy. and in the air generally? It is probably a problem for I urge my noble friend the Minister to reflect on the air traffic control. work that has gone before and on the resolution of the European Parliament. I urge him also to recognise Lord Hunt of Chesterton: My Lords, I support the the opportunity that this Bill offers to put general and amendment as part of my philosophy of more than business aviation interests on the government agenda 20 years of noting that public servants in Britain who and send a long-overdue message to the European work in agencies—I used to run the Met Office in civil Parliament and business community that the UK is aviation—do not have as part of their job description open for aviation business in all its diversity. I hope my a requirement to help British commerce and industry. noble friend the Minister will see the benefits this The leader of the Conservatives today said that growth would bring to the country. If he is unable to accept in this country will only come about from businessmen my amendments, I hope that I will be able to offer my and entrepreneurs. He is wrong. It will also come services and those of the LAA to him and his officials about from civil servants working with industry to so that we can work together on this and secure a Bill create environments in which these things happen. for the general and business aviation industry, and for It is quite extraordinary that in no case is the job the community, that is fit for the future and holds the description of any civil servant such that he is judged promise of a brighter one. I invite the Minister to at the end of the year on how he has done in his service accept this offer, in his usual accommodating fashion, and also promoted industry. This is a good example. to facilitate the further discussions that will be of The role of the CAA is enormously important for mutual benefit. industry. Surely part of the role of the Secretary of State will be to define the terms of reference of the director of the CAA in that direction. The amendment 5.45 pm takes us in that direction. As I said earlier, I wish to speak to Amendment 11—it is not in this group—which seeks to add a new clause Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, I strongly support after Clause 1. The new clause is unremarkable in its Amendments 3 and 9, and perhaps Amendment 11 as construction—indeed, it closely mirrors Clause 92—and well. Like my noble friend Lord Rotherwick, I have a requires the CAA to prepare and publish its policy as connection with what used to be called the Popular regards its general duties under Clause 1; to consult Flying Association, of which I was once the president. when it seeks to change that policy; and to publish any Indeed, in that capacity, on one famous occasion, I revised policy. I propose the new clause in the interests was lucky enough to fly the then Aviation Minister to of transparency, accountability and good governance open the PFA annual rally. Who was the Aviation by the regulator. It should have been included in the Minister? He was none other than my noble friend Bill. Lord Goschen, and I am glad to say that we were met If the Minister is moved to accept the principle with tumultuous applause. As I recall, the only problem behind my other amendments to Clause 1, Amendment 11 was some very nasty weather, about which I had to go has the additional benefit of requiring the CAA to to see the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, at the Met Office state how it will meet its obligations to promote and because we felt that we had not really had proper safeguard the interests of general and business aviation warning. Happily, all the matters were properly resolved at our major airports. eventually. The amendments may not be technically perfect or General aviation is a very important part of the as elegantly drafted as they might be—I do not have aviation industry and of aviation activity as a whole. It the Department for Transport and parliamentary counsel is quite properly regulated by the Civil Aviation Authority, to assist me—and I apologise if there are flaws. However, including the hot air balloons to which the noble they make a simple and powerful point. General and Lord, Lord Berkeley, referred. Indeed, a few months business aviation is ignored in the Bill and should not ago, I had the privilege of flying in one. I must warn be so. To do so is to the detriment of this country, its your Lordships that it is very exciting and great fun, aviators and its past history. My amendment, without except the landing. You usually end up in a heap on any offence to the principles of the Bill or the fundamental the grass, but that is for another time. However, general change to the proposed functions of the CAA, would aviation is crucial. Amendments 3 and 9, which were set this right. tabled by my noble friend Lord Rotherwick, are important GC 141 Civil Aviation Bill[27 JUNE 2012] Civil Aviation Bill GC 142 and relevant, and I hope the Minister will be sympathetic, for about 10 seconds because I did not have a clue. I at least, to the aspirations of those amendments, or look forward to hearing my noble friend’s response to perhaps will even agree to them. the amendment. Turning to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Viscount Goschen: My Lords, I support the thrust Berkeley, I, too, have had one or two very interesting of the amendments tabled by my noble friend Lord trips in a hot air balloon. As Secretary of State for the Rotherwick. I should also make a mildly spurious Environment, I had to decide on the planning declaration that I hold a private pilot’s licence and am requirements for tethered balloons, which are often the operator of an aircraft, although I can assure the used for advertising. I was confronted by two very Committee, much to its relief, that I have no intention strong opposing views. Some people said, “These are of going near an economic regulated airport, any perfectly horrible and should be strictly controlled”, more than a hot air balloon would. while others said that it was a harmless form of advertising. I split the difference and said that no My noble friend is right to draw attention to the planning permission was needed if the balloon would economic importance of the heavier end of general be there for only 14 days or fewer. Everybody seemed business aviation. A great deal of economic value is satisfied with that and I have never heard any more tied up with the importance of being able to move about it. business leaders around the country quickly and, indeed, between countries. To do that, access to major airports Landing in a hot air balloon is very exciting. The is required. My noble friend also drew the Committee’s important thing is not to get off too quickly or it will attention to important areas, such as medevac or disappear up into the air again, which can be very ambulance flights. One can also think of traffic monitoring disconcerting. However, it is a splendid sport and I flights, the importance of the maintenance sector and have never forgotten the occasion when I was staying so forth. It is true that general aviation, in particular, officially at Leeds Castle. Very early one still morning, business aviation, has been squeezed out of the major there was a rally of hot air balloons. I was invited to it airports. by American Express, which had a very large balloon. We took off and had the most marvellous flight. My noble friend is not trying to do anything However, before we left, we carefully and quietly climbed prescriptive. He is not trying to ensure that a certain up the side of Leeds Castle, where my wife was leaning share of slots or capacity is accounted for by business out of the window in her nightgown. I was able to bid aviation. That would not be appropriate. All he is her farewell, almost touching but not quite. We had a trying to do in his carefully worded amendments and very skilful pilot and I hugely admired how he managed in his remarks in support of them is to draw the the hot air balloon. Again, it seems that the CAA Government’s attention to the economic importance should have some regulatory role in this. of this specialist field. It is easily overlooked. It is not a populous field. Most members of the general public are not going to come across general business aviation Earl Attlee: It does. flights, but that is not to say that they are not extremely important. My noble friend was right to Lord Jenkin of Roding: I am assured that it does, so draw the Committee’s attention to its notable scale. I that is fine. No doubt my noble friend will explain think he said that this sector is worth £3.7 billion to that. the economy and employs 50,000 people, so it is important that in determining its regulation the CAA should at least take account of the important interests Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, given that the of this field. It is very easy to portray it as Bill has been through the other place without this cigar-smoking fat cats coming to appear on television debate being advanced there to any degree, we are game shows including, perhaps, Members of your grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Rotherwick, for his Lordships’ House, but in fact we are really talking introduction of these amendments. I will be very interested about the ability for business investment to be drawn in the Minister’s response. We can all see that the into the country. Many business leaders travel by primary responsibility of the CAA in respect of regulated executive aircraft to access our centres of commerce airports means that any aspect of general aviation around the country as efficiently as possible. I support may be pretty low in its priorities, although some my noble friend’s amendments, and I look forward to aspects of business aviation have other advantages to hearing the Minister’s response. the country. However, I must counter some of the rosier views of general aviation with an obvious point. Lord Jenkin of Roding: My Lords, I am astonished The last time that private flying came to the attention that there is no regulation of general aviation of the of the general public was in the case of the individual sort that is covered by my noble friend’s amendment. who went up in his private aircraft each night to avoid If that is right, I cannot understand why the CAA a day on British soil counting against him and affecting should not have some general role. Air taxis are presumably his tax returns. So there is another side to private within the definition that he encounters. There was a aviation. time when I had to fly from my home in Essex to I am very guarded about this but I have some Liverpool several times a month, and much the easiest sympathy with the points that the noble Lord, Lord way was to take an air taxi from Stansted Airport, Rotherwick, put forward. He may have over-egged the which we used frequently. On one occasion, the pilot pudding with all three amendments. I will be most suggested that I take over the controls, which lasted interested in the Minister’s response to Amendment 3. GC 143 Civil Aviation Bill[LORDS] Civil Aviation Bill GC 144

[LORD DAVIES OF OLDHAM] and airfields used by the general aviation community. It merely asks that these interests are promoted This is a further policy reason not to pay special and safeguarded, which seems a fairly minimal regard to general and business aviation. requirement. However, the Government absolutely recognise the valuable contribution of the general and business aviation 6pm sector. The CAA’s Strategic Review of General Aviation in 2006 estimated its contribution to the UK economy Earl Attlee: My Lords, these amendments propose at £1.4 billion per annum, a little less than the PWC the inclusion of new secondary duties that take account report referred to—probably because different tests of the interests of general and business aviation. I were applied—but still a very significant sum none the accept that the Bill is limited in scope. It seeks primarily less. As noble Lords have observed, it delivers important to provide for better regulation of our airports and is services such as search and rescue, mail delivery, life-saving not designed to be a comprehensive overhaul of our organ transport, law enforcement, aerial survey and legislation. Having carefully considered these amendments, environmental protection flights, as well as underpinning I cannot accept them, as they are unlikely to yield the training of future pilots. It also has growing economic significant benefits but could unfortunately introduce importance for the European manufacturing industry. unnecessary ambiguity into the Bill. I would like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to Despite the amendments being carefully drafted, a my noble friends Lord Rotherwick, Lord Trefgarne technical difficulty arises because of the absence of and Lord Goschen, who miss no opportunity to promote any definition or description of what is meant by the needs of general aviation. “general and business aviation”, so the amendment The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, mentioned hot air may introduce undesirable uncertainty. I am sure that balloons. I like seeing hot air balloons in the summer all noble Lords in the Committee understand what we in the countryside, but my wife has declined to take a mean by it, but not in legislative terms. I will ensure ride in one for the reasons that noble Lords have that I am briefed on the EU declaration that my noble identified. The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, will know friend Lord Rotherwick mentioned. that aviation safety is covered by other legislation but There are also policy difficulties with the proposed is policed by the CAA as the safety regulator. amendment. One policy intention behind the Clause 1 The Government are currently developing a long-term duties is for the CAA to be provided with a set of clear strategy for sustainable aviation in the UK. A formal and unambiguous duties, promoting the interests of consultation document is due to be published later passengers and owners of cargo in the provision of air this summer, when the general aviation community operation services. It follows that the number of secondary and other aviation stakeholders will be invited to duties should be as small as is reasonably practicable. comment. However, I believe that these amendments The new framework for economic regulation would would create unnecessary ambiguity and ask my noble apply to airports with significant market power—currently, friend to withdraw or not to move them at the appropriate Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted. General and business point. aviation interests will be covered when the flight includes Amendment 11 seeks to introduce a new clause passengers. For example, when a corporate flight is after Clause 1 that would place a requirement on the carrying business passengers, the primary duty will CAA to publish a statement of policy setting out how extend to the passengers as they will comprise users of it plans to carry out its functions as set out in transport services. It appears that the only cases where Clause 1. I understand that the intention of this the interests of general and business aviation will not amendment may be to be ensure transparency in the be taken into account are when the flight carries CAA’s exercise of its new duties. The Bill as drafted neither passengers nor cargo, other than cargo carried provides a clear primary duty to end-users that the by the pilot. A secondary duty to take into account the CAA supports. However, there are several reasons reasonable interests of general and business aviation is why I do not think this amendment will work in unlikely to make a material difference, having regard practice. First, the amendment as drafted requires the to the very small percentage of such flights to regulated CAA to prepare and publish the statement of its airports. policy with respect to carrying out its functions under The Bill recognises that conflicts may arise between Clause 1. However, the CAA has no functions under the interests of different users of air transport services. Clause 1; rather, Clause 1 sets outs the way in which it In such cases, the CAA has very wide discretion to must carry out its functions under Chapter 1. The decide whose interests it should further. Against this amendment as drafted would appear to have no background, we do not think that it is appropriate to effect. In view of this, I hope the noble Lord will give specific prominence to the interests of general withdraw his amendment. and business aviation or indeed any other specific sector. For all airports, when demand is higher then Lord Rotherwick: I thank all noble Lords who took capacity for finite take-off and landing slots, this is part in this debate and I thank the Minister for his generally reflected in the fees charged. In a competitive response, although it was not very helpful and rather market, an airport operator is likely to prefer to receive disappointing. He was not able to offer me much flights with large numbers of passengers over those comfort for my amendments. Bearing in mind what he with fewer passengers when this enhances its profits. said about consulting later on promoting and safeguarding The Bill will not impact the mechanism for setting airports, it would certainly be helpful to sit down with airport charges at airports not deemed to have substantial him and his Bill team to find out whether we could get market power, which is the vast majority of airports additional comfort. GC 145 Civil Aviation Bill[27 JUNE 2012] Civil Aviation Bill GC 146

Earl Attlee: My Lords, I would be delighted to on whether the Government accept that there is no continue to work closely with my noble friend on the real difference between the CAA and other economic issue of general aviation. regulators, and to get an explanation of why it cannot also have an environmental duty. Lord Rotherwick: I am very grateful for that because The other reason given in response to some of these it has taken us a generation to have vehicle for this and amendments might be that they apply only to the we do not want to miss it. Perhaps I could talk to him dominant airports. That is why we have included a bit later. I am interested in our not giving a negative Amendment 69, which will come later, ahead of statement to the European business community, saying Clause 100, to give a general duty. We agree that it that the UK is not open for aviation in all its diversity. should not just be a matter for the dominant airports, As saturation takes up the three main airports, and but should be across the industry. then the next five, there needs to be an aviation infrastructure left for the rest of the aviation community Yet another reason given for not accepting these to flow into. I thank the noble Lord for all his help on amendments is that they are simply not needed. In this and beg leave to withdraw. fact, there are many people who disagree with that. When we were in government, we did not agree; as I Amendment 3 withdrawn. have stated, we made it clear that we would put such duties into the Bill. Also, the Department for Transport’s Amendment 4 press release of November 2011 did not seem to agree Moved by Baroness Worthington either. That—rather erroneously, as it turns out—stated that such a duty would be included, so it seemed odd 4: Clause 1, page 2, line 10, at end insert— that when the draft Bill was published it did not “( ) the need to ensure that the holder of a licence under this contain these environmental duties. Most recently, in Chapter complies with applicable planning laws,” January 2012 the Transport Committee made it clear Baroness Worthington: My Lords, in moving that it also believed that it should be included. It Amendment 4, I will speak also speak to Amendments stated: 6, 7, 13A and 69, which have been grouped under the “Without giving the CAA a supplementary duty on the environment in relation to its economic regulation role, there is title of environmental amendments. I seek to reinstate some risk that airports may be reluctant to invest in improving environmental duties into the Bill. These amendments environmental performance. Whilst, as the Minister says, there are not new and were tabled in the Commons. We have may be ‘absolutely no doubt’ about measures taken to comply received some responses from the Government that with statutory environmental obligations, there remains a doubt have quite frankly been disappointing. The Bill, as about whether the costs of discretionary measures, such as improved noble Lords will know, started out under the previous public transport access, can be recovered by airports in charges to Government. When we issued our consultation document airlines”. in 2009 and our decisions document in December of The crucial point is that we need to take discretionary that year, we made very clear that we intended to use spending into account here. There will be examples—civil such a Bill to introduce an environmental duty on the groups such as Airport Watch have provided them—where CAA. airports may want to undertake voluntary measures to It was, therefore, with great regret that we noticed improve their environmental performance, but will that the current Bill does not contain such a duty. We seek to recover those costs. We need to maintain the understand that the Minister in the Commons Committee CAA’s flexibility to allow them to do this. It is a very has given reasons why she believes that it should not important point. We do not want to see a race to the be included, although it is rather odd for the so-called bottom through cost-cutting at the expense of greenest Government ever to renege on or move away environmental measures. It is, therefore, important from environmental commitments. We would have that these duties are established and, as I said, many thought that they would take every opportunity possible people agree with us on this. to introduce these duties, so it seems a little odd and I turn now to Amendment 6, which relates not to the reasons given are not convincing. the broader environmental duty to have regard to the The first reason given is that a primarily economic environment, but is more specifically to do with carbon regulatory Bill is simply not the place to put environmental budgets. In this debate about aviation we cannot ignore regulations. To that, I simply say that there are obvious the fact that this sector has a considerable environmental precedents for creating environmental duties within impact, that climate change is a real problem, and that economic regulatory instruments. Other bodies that there is cross-party consensus that we need to tackle it. have an impact on the environment such as the ORR, So it is clearly important that we enlist all those Ofgem, Ofgas and Ofwat all have secondary duties to sectors that contribute to our carbon budget to help in take into account environmental concerns and sustainable reducing it. It is absolutely imperative that we follow development. As an example I will read the duty put the advice of the Committee on Climate Change on on Ofgas, which has a duty to, including aviation in our carbon budgets. Having done “have regard … to the effect on the environment of activities that, we then need an industry and regulatory body connected with the conveyance of gas through pipes … and to that has environmental concerns and the meeting of contribute to the achievement of sustainable development”. those carbon budgets at its heart. It is, obviously, primarily an economic regulator, but it has, nevertheless, an environmental duty, because 6.15 pm it is an activity that brings with it environmental We cannot continue with business as usual. The issues. I do not see, therefore, that that reason holds, sector will have to undergo significant change. If we and it would be very good to hear from the Minister keep putting our head in the sand and pretending that GC 147 Civil Aviation Bill[LORDS] Civil Aviation Bill GC 148

[BARONESS WORTHINGTON] Lord Clinton-Davis: I am in entire agreement with there is not an issue we may find all sorts of unintended what my noble friend said. The impression that might consequences. We might build far too much excess be given is that the unions involved in aviation and capacity, which is not needed because environmental aviation interests are unmindful of the environmental pressures and consumer choices take us down a different situation. A great deal of work has been done on route. The meeting of our carbon budgets helps us to environmental progress, as I well know, having served plan for the future in a world where we know there will as president of BALPA for 29 years. I recall meetings be a carbon constraint. We must not simply put our of BALPA over the years, and this issue predominates head in the sand and assume that aviation or any other in its influence on events. I know that a great deal of sector can carry on using up our carbon budgets as work has been done by aircraft manufacturers, who though it did not matter. are not unmindful of their ill effects on the environment and take them into account. The next generation of It is important to note that aviation is now included aircraft will improve the effects of aviation on the within the EU Emissions Trading Scheme so the airlines environment in future—and so it will go on. This are becoming accustomed to carbon budgets and ought to be taken into account in the amendments budgeting. We also need the CAA to take that on being moved. board and become involved in this process. You may ask what role airports really play in this and say that It is right that some emphasis should be given to the we should perhaps concern ourselves more with airlines’ work being done on the environment and that it emissions. However, airports can and do play an important should be included in the legislation. What I can say role not only through their own emissions on the without any possibility of contradiction is that the use ground but in how they interact with the airlines. I of the word “environment” is not simply a byplay on noted yesterday that BAA is reporting a reduction in words but the sign of a real concern, which has been its income because airlines are adapting more quickly expressed by British Airways, in particular, but also by than expected to the graduated charges that favour other aviation interests. It would not be sensible for more efficient airlines. Already, the sector is seeing its any aviation interest, whether the companies concerned business model change because of carbon budgeting or the trade unions, to suggest that they are not and that pressure now on industry to reduce its emissions mindful of the ill effects of aviation on the environment. and improve the efficiency of its fleet. If the CAA is to They are, and it figures very largely in what they have keep pace with that, it will need powers to enable it to to say on this issue. take that longer view and introduce charges that keep pace with industry moving towards more efficient, Lord Soley: I am also sympathetic to these amendments. lower-carbon aircraft and fuels. It is absolutely important If I was asked to choose one particular amendment, it that the CAA should be given this responsibility. It is would be Amendment 6, because it links up the key important that we do not treat aviation as a special organisations, the National Air Traffic Services, the case. It must be included within the carbon budget, as Committee on Climate Change and the department. It are other sectors that contribute to that budget. is better if we pinpoint what we want the CAA to do It is not all doom and gloom. If the aviation industry and whom it should work with on this, so that we get and airports in particular can adapt themselves to the an overall approach. I support what my noble friends coming future and see themselves as transport providers Lady Worthington and Lord Clinton-Davis said; he or communication enablers, rather than simply saying, has great and long experience in this regard. “We build airports and let people fly to and from The reality is that if you had asked the aviation them”, they will see all sorts of other business industry 10 or 15 years ago, it would not have taken opportunities emerging. There is the inclusion of different climate change anywhere near as seriously as it should ways of connecting people, such as telepresencing or have done. But it has woken up, and woken up fast. video conferencing, so that they are not defending an Because the aerospace industry is such an important industry that will absolutely have to change in order scientific and technological driver, it has begun to leap for us to tackle climate change. ahead. So you now find, as the Minister will know from our several conversations when I have provided I will leave it there. If we do not give prominence to him with information on alternative fuels, most notably carbon budgets there is a risk that we will simply carry algae, that it and other drop-in fuels are actually good on regardless and feel the penalty in future. This is all for the environment. There is real movement there. about taking a long-term view and I hope that noble The new design of aircraft has made them much Lords and the Minister will take the amendment seriously. quieter and more powerful, so you get the A380, I look forward to his response. I beg to move. which requires a runway that is half the length of that required by the old 747, even though it was much Lord Bradshaw: While not unsympathetic to what smaller. It is quieter because it is quieter anyway and the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, said, I think its fuel efficiency is particularly good. The effect of the that the amendment in my name, which is shorter, emphasis by the aviation industry on improving has takes up most of the points that she made and with been great, and the airport operators have emphasised which I agree. When the Minister replies, I would like it too. I think I mentioned at Second Reading that him to be certain that the Marshalled List is correct. It when I spoke at the Airport Operators Association says, “Page 2, line 12”. I am not sure that that is right. conference in about 2004, very few of them saw trying It would be a very small adjustment but it may not to reduce emissions from ground operations as a high have been carried through correctly to the Marshalled priority. They now do, and they give it enormous List. importance. Look at what has been done at Heathrow GC 149 Civil Aviation Bill[27 JUNE 2012] Civil Aviation Bill GC 150 with electric vehicles. They are all making efforts. propose a new regulatory system for the UK’s airports. However, I always put a cautionary note here because The Bill almost entirely follows his advice. I say “almost” when we talk about electric propulsion, whether for because Cave recommended that the CAA, in its role trains, cars or any other operations, we have to remember as economic regulator, should have a supplementary that electricity in this country is predominantly produced duty, from coal, oil and gas with some nuclear, so it is not as “to have regard to the effect on the environment and on local clean as we sometimes like to pretend it is. communities of activities connected with the provision of airport Nor are we as good on noise. At Second Reading I services” mentioned the noise of the trains that went through This is missing from the Bill. As we heard at Second my former constituency at 100 miles an hour, barely Reading and from the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, 50 or 100 feet from people’s front and back doors. every other comparable UK regulator has some form That went on throughout the night 365 days a year. I of statutory environmental duty. Why should there be have lived next to such railway lines, I have lived under an exception for the aviation industry, especially in the Heathrow flight path for over 30 years and I have view of the serious impacts that airport operations lived by major roads in Glasgow, so I have experience and air transport services can have on the environment of all of them. In many respects, aviation noise is a bit and local communities? easier if it is reduced from time to time by runways and flights being switched. 6.30 pm Going back to the comment by my noble friend Lady Worthington on the emissions problem, some of It seems that the Government came very close to the predictions that have been made about aviation in including an environmental duty for the CAA in the 50 years’ time are wildly wrong because they are based Bill. As the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, on the assumption that there will be no scientific mentioned, on the day that the draft Bill was published, development. If you take the scientific development last November, the Department for Transport’s press that has been achieved now, leaving aside fuels and release stated that the Bill would require the CAA, just looking at efficiency, you will get nowhere near the “to have regard to the effect on the environment and on local figures predicated in the horror scenarios. I say this as communities of activities connected with the provision of airport someone who has been worried about climate change services”. for years—I wrote my first article on it in the early It is no coincidence that this quote exactly mirrors 1980s—but I have also seen how the green movement the Cave quote that I gave a moment ago. Oddly, we got things badly wrong on Brent Spar. It ignored the were later told that it was an error and it was not scientific advice on that and on nuclear power, which I included, but it was clearly in someone’s mind to saw as essential to get us out of the hole we were in. include it until very late in the day. I do not want to turn this into a long debate on the In supporting these amendments, I do not advocate environment, but I want to say, as my noble friends that environmental considerations should take precedence Lady Worthington and Lord Clinton-Davis have said, over passengers’ interests, or even that they should that if we give the CAA a duty to work with NATS, rank equally with those interests. The CAA’s primary the department and the Committee on Climate Change duty should, quite rightly, be clearly focused on the we are getting quite a good link-up. We all know about interests of passengers. As the Department for Transport’s the problem of air traffic control centres in Europe— policy paper for the Bill points out in paragraph 2.14: I mentioned this at Second Reading, so I shall not “The primary duty will be supplemented by a set of further speak about it at great length—but we have 10 times duties which cannot, individually or collectively, override the more than North America for a similar amount of primary duty. Rather they aim to set out factors that the CAA airspace. There is a great fight in Europe about who should consider in giving effect to its primary duty”. has to close an air traffic control centre. Believe it or Therefore, this duty to the environment and local not, no country wants to close one, so we end up flying communities is and should be supplementary. in doglegs across Europe, which increases fuel use. It has been argued in the other place that it would There is some very encouraging work being done on distort the market to give the CAA an environmental this, but it would be useful to have in the Bill a duty in its role as economic regulator because only requirement to work with the organisations, especially three airports are currently subject to economic regulation; that contained in Amendment 6, which is the amendment namely, Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted. I am not I prefer on this. convinced that this is a terribly strong point. The regulated UK airports are, by definition, those with Earl Cathcart: I shall speak to the last three the most market power. Together, Heathrow, Gatwick amendments in this group as they follow naturally and Stansted account for 55% of the UK market and from what I said at Second Reading. I support have some major competitive advantages over the Amendments 11 and 13A—Amendment 13A has been smaller UK airports through economies of scale. It is substituted for Amendment 12—and will deal with inconceivable that these dominant airports would be them together as they are identical. It must be right for put at a competitive disadvantage to smaller airports the CAA to have a duty to have regard to the impact simply because the CAA had the statutory authority of airports on the environment and local communities. to allow them to recover discretionary environmental Chapter 1 sets out new arrangements for the economic expenditure through their airport charges. regulation of dominant airports in the UK. These new The concern is that the CAA’s hands will be tied by arrangements were largely designed by Professor Cave, the Bill. If the CAA were to allow a regulated airport who the then Secretary of State appointed in 2009 to to recover discretionary environmental expenditure GC 151 Civil Aviation Bill[LORDS] Civil Aviation Bill GC 152

[EARL CATHCART] my noble friend Lord Attlee will keep an open mind through airport charges, an airline could mount a on this subject, agree to consider it further and come legal challenge. The Bill leaves the CAA defenceless back on Report with a suitable government amendment. against such a challenge because, as it is presently drafted, the CAA has no statutory duty or authority Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall: I do not think that I in relation to an airport’s environmental impacts. This will detain the Committee long because I could not concern was voiced by the Transport Select Committee possibly put my arguments better than they have just in the other place. It said: been put by the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart. He has “Without giving the CAA a supplementary duty on the made every single point that I wanted to make, succinctly environment in relation to its economic regulation role, there is and elegantly, which is marvellous for the Committee some risk that airports may be reluctant to invest in improving environmental performance”. and not so bad for me. I support these amendments, which were moved If Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted are prevented very ably by my noble friend Lady Worthington. In from recovering discretionary expenditure on measures particular, I want to support Amendment 69 for the to offset their environmental impacts, doing the absolute very reasons that the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, gave. minimum may become the norm. This could result I felt that he put the points in exactly the way in which in—to use the phrase of the noble Baroness, Lady they needed to be put. This amendment would provide Worthington—a race to the bottom in environmental the CAA with a general duty, which would meet the standards at our leading airports. That example may objections that it would somehow be to the disadvantage well be followed by our non-regulated airports, which of the regulated airports if they were subject to a is not what we want to achieve. particular kind of scrutiny by the CAA that was not I turn to Amendment 69, which I also support. In going to be applied to the airports that are not regulated. supporting the two earlier amendments, I referred to I declare an interest in that, very stupidly, I have the advice which the then Secretary of State took from chosen to live under two flight paths. I live in north Professor Cave in 2009. Just prior to that, in 2007, the Essex, under the flight path into Stansted, and in Secretary of State had appointed Sir Joseph Pilling to Dolphin Square, under the flight path into Heathrow. carry out a strategic review of the CAA. It was not This was not good planning on my part, but it gives confined to the CAA’s economic regulation role but me the ability to make one particular point that the covered the organisation as a whole. Among his key Minister knew that I might raise to do with noise. recommendations, Pilling called for its new statutory Environmental issues can be understood very broadly framework to make clear that, or quite narrowly. What has been interesting about the “the CAA’s responsibility is to safeguard the general public whole debate this afternoon, from the outset, is that it interest, which is broader than the aviation community”, has all been drawn towards this issue of environmental and for the CAA to be given, impacts. The first amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, which talked about surface access, “a general statutory duty in relation to the environment”. was actually talking about the impact on passengers He described the absence of a general environmental and local communities of insufficiently well developed duty in the CAA’s statutory remit as a “notable gap”. infrastructure, which is an environmental impact. Noise This amendment is designed to remove the notable is too, and my noble friend Lord Soley is quite right gap regarding the environment and to make it clear to that if you live next to a railway line that goes all night, the CAA that its responsibility is to safeguard the that is also disturbing. However, living under a flight general public interest and not only the interests of the path where so-called night flights really only stop aviation community. between midnight and 4 am means that you lose a lot I wish to make just one other point on this. The of sleep. There are a great many people who are earlier Amendments 7 and 13A have been criticised adversely affected by that. That does not necessarily because they would give the CAA an environmental include me, as I am fortunate enough to be able to duty only in relation to its role as economic regulator. cope. However, people who are very ill, very young Thus, they would apply only to our three largest children or people who suffer from sleep disorders are airports and so create the risk of distorting the market. going to be very adversely affected if noise pollution is This amendment, however, would give the CAA a not controlled effectively. general environmental duty, applicable to all airports. Emissions, which my noble friend Lady Worthington talked about with great authority, as one would expect Finally, some may feel that the wording of this her to do, are less easy for people to understand in amendment, particularly the phrase, “where possible their daily lives. You are not aware, on the whole, of and appropriate”, is rather weak, but it does not need the sort of damage that is being done to you as an to be strong. It is not intended to give the CAA an individual by the aeroplane that is going over your aggressive environmental role. It is largely to give the head emitting toxic fumes that you cannot smell but CAA a basis for defending its actions in the event of a which sure as heck are there. The same is true of the legal challenge from airlines, which want the minimum impact of surface transport around and in airports. possible expenditure on environmental mitigation The whole range of impacts that can be broadly said measures. to be environmental is very wide, and I find it very I am not sure of the best place in the Bill for this hard to understand why the Government have so far statutory duty, but what I am sure of is that it must be resisted giving the CAA the general duty that included somewhere. We all owe a duty to the environment. Amendment 69 would give it. It gives rise to a slight Why should the CAA be an exception? So I hope that suspicion that they may be susceptible to the wrong GC 153 Civil Aviation Bill[27 JUNE 2012] Civil Aviation Bill GC 154 kind of pressure, possibly from the aviation industry—who Lord Jenkin of Roding: I will be very interested to knows?—rather than giving what most noble Lords in hear my noble friend’s response as to why the obligation this Committee today appear to accept is proper contained in earlier legislation has not been repeated consideration to the wider social and environmental in the present Bill. I do not want to repeat what others impact of that industry’s activities. have said. I, too, feel that Amendment 69 is likely to be I do not think, as my noble friend Lord Clinton-Davis the more acceptable of those in the group. One appears to believe, that the industry is unmindful of its consequence if such an obligation were imposed is environmental impact. I do not think that at all. that it would go a long way to answer the question that Having lived under the flight path into Stansted for I put to my noble friend at Second Reading on what 10 years, I am aware that a huge amount of work has Clause 84 is about. Clause 84 obliges the CAA to give gone on in the development of aircraft, in respect of all sorts of information. When I asked my noble friend both noise and emissions and that there is a strong at Second Reading what that meant, he said the Bill wish on the part of the industry, in its own interests was, and in those of the wider community, to continue “designed to require the CAA to publish such … information as it developing, for example, better fuels, which my noble considers appropriate to draw passengers and freight owners into friend Lord Soley mentioned, and engines and airframes the Government’s wider efforts to address the environmental that are less likely to produce excessive noise. impact of aviation”.—[Official Report, 13/6/12; col. 1378.] If the CAA does not have any sort of duty, I find I do not believe that in some way this is an opportunity that a very difficult paragraph to understand. Of course, to bash the aviation industry or not to accept that it as my noble friend Lord Cathcart said with eloquence, has done a great deal already. However, there is much and as has been moved by the Opposition Front more to do. The danger that we stand in if the CAA Bench, if the CAA had that duty then that would fall does not have the kind of strengthened position that into place. It would be quite right, if it had that duty, this amendment would give it is that the competition that it should publish that information. The information between airports that was talked about in earlier by itself, without a duty, seems a pretty off way of amendments will give rise to reluctance on the part of drafting the legislation. the industry to accelerate that work as quickly as it otherwise might. It will also, as the noble Earl, Lord My noble friend the Minister was extremely good Cathcart, has already mentioned— at answering several of the points that I raised at Second Reading but he did not quite have time to 6.45 pm answer them all and he did not answer my question about what that paragraph in the Explanatory Note Lord Clinton-Davis: Beyond the work of the CAA, meant. I merely mention this as a consequence of does my noble friend recognise that without any prompting the amendments to restore a duty to have regard to the the aviation industry and the trade unions concerned environmental consequences of aviation and of the with aviation are all mindful of the ill effects on the airlines. ground? Is it not appropriate that a tribute should be paid to them for the work they have done and will do in future? Lord Berkeley: My Lords, as my noble friend Lady Worthington said in her opening remarks, it is useful to reflect on some of the industries which are regulated Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall: I believe I just did in this respect and to reflect that these industries have, exactly that. As I already said, I am very well aware of for their own rights and reasons and in order to the work that the industry has done and will continue comply with the regulator’s duty, made big improvements to do in both its own interests and those of the wider in the areas of emissions, noise, water, energy and community. I merely say that the aviation business is construction. The rail industry has been required to very competitive. There are strong pressures—which I reduce its diesel emissions, as has the road sector. I am do not suggest are venal in any way—on the airlines to not sure that it will be quite as easy to persuade some compete with each other and on the airports to compete ship owners to change their fuel but the European with each other. If the CAA was not properly equipped Commission is intent on doing so. I am sure that it will with the right regulatory powers, those pressures could happen one day and that it will be either voluntary or lead to some of the reduction in environmental impacts forced upon them. As my noble friend Lord Clinton-Davis that we would like to see not being achieved either as said, the air industry has made significant improvements. quickly as we would like or at all. It would be odd if the Bill did not contain a It seems to me that Amendment 69 in particular is requirement or duty on the CAA to take into account quite modest. I did not draft it. I simply observe that it environmental matters. That does not mean that the looks fairly straightforward. As the noble Earl, Lord air industry is particularly bad at doing so but there is Cathcart, remarked, it is deliberately structured so as evidence from other industries that, because of these not to place an onerous duty on the CAA but to place regulatory duties, they probably try a little harder and an obligation on it where appropriate to exercise this in a way that they would not do otherwise. particular power. The point that the noble Earl made about the protection that it offers the CAA is very I am inclined to support Amendment 69 but it is important. Could the Minister explain to the Committee very important that we include something here so that on what grounds—other than in the difference between there is commonality with some of the other regulators’ the regulated and unregulated airports—the Government duties to consider environmental issues, and to encourage have resisted and I fear may continue to resist this airports and the airline industry to go that little bit particular amendment? further. GC 155 Civil Aviation Bill[LORDS] Civil Aviation Bill GC 156

[LORD BERKELEY] Earl Attlee: My Lords, it is for the CAA to work Many noble Lords will recall the debates when the out whether it is in the public interest to publish the third runway was last on the agenda about the emissions information. from Heathrow and whether they were over the limit. I recognise the value of noble Lords’ contributions, Were they caused by emissions from the M4 running particularly those of the noble Lords, Lord Clinton-Davis past on the north side or from the M25? There were and Lord Soley, and my noble friend Lord Cathcart. many debates—I do not want to go into who was right They made very important points and some of the and who was wrong—and one solution was to put the technical points made by the noble Lords, Lord Clinton- M4 in a tunnel. I cannot see the point of that because Davis and Lord Soley, were very interesting. I share emissions will still take place in a tunnel and will have the concerns about the environmental impacts of airport to come out somewhere. They might come out further operations and wider aviation. The coalition takes the away but, to me, that would be cheating. Again, this environmental impacts of aviation very seriously, as I concerns the idea of the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, have explained. of including surface access, which I am sure will come Each of these amendments seeks to add to the Bill up again. supplementary duties that relate to environmental or However, matters have improved since then in the planning issues. Amendments 4, 5, 6, 7 and 13A seek quality of emissions from the air and road industries. to add supplementary duties to the CAA and the It is essential that something along the lines of the Secretary of State’s airport economic regulation functions, amendments is included in the Bill. whereas Amendment 69 seeks to add an overarching duty for all the CAA’s functions, including airport Earl Attlee: My Lords, the issue of aviation and the economic regulation. This would create a tension with environment was raised by several noble Lords during the CAA’s primary duty in Clause 1(1). Second Reading. I am pleased to return to the matter again and to give further consideration to this important I turn first to the amendments that would provide subject. I have not tabled a government amendment the possibility of the CAA having an overarching because I am reluctant to pre-empt the Committee’s environmental duty. The idea is not a new one. consideration of this topic. However, I hope that when The previous Government consulted on a general we have finished the Bill the noble Baroness, Lady environmental objective for the CAA, along with parallel Worthington, will not be disappointed. proposals for a general consumer and safety objective. No clear support for a general environmental objective The noble Baroness almost fell into the trap of was evident. This flowed from Sir Joseph Pilling’s being political. She will know that we take environmental review of the CAA. The responses to the consultation issues very seriously indeed and that that is why the were mixed and did not show clear support for a coalition Government will not agree to a third runway general environmental objective. For example, concern at Heathrow. It is clearly for environmental reasons, was expressed about ensuring a clear boundary between particularly noise. This was referred to by the noble environmental policy, which was seen as the role of the Baroness, Lady McIntosh. Perhaps the noble Baroness, Government, and the role of an expert aviation regulator, Lady Worthington, will state what her party’s policy is where safety was seen as the priority. After all, the with regard to the third runway at Heathrow. Does she Environment Agency is the body responsible for regulating or does she not support it? I can assure your Lordships environmental issues. that I have listened to the points raised today and that I shall carefully read Hansard. Lord Soley: I am looking again at Clause 84. The The point was raised about the drafting of the Minister has indicated that he wants to help the Committee amendment. Yes, Amendment 13A was substituted on this issue. When he responds on this at a later stage, for Amendment 12 on the Marshalled List. will he consider whether Clause 84(2) could apply to Many noble Lords asked why other economic all airports? It states: regulators have an environmental duty but not the “The CAA may publish guidelines and advice with a view to CAA. Other economic regulators apply economic reducing, controlling or mitigating adverse environmental effects regulation across most or all of their respective industries, on civil aviation in the United Kingdom”. but the CAA regulates only the three London airports, In a way, it refers to the whole of the UK and I am as observed by my noble friend Lord Cathcart. Why not sure why, with a bit of tweaking, Clause 84 could should Manchester not be subject to environmental not cover some of the points that we have made. regulation while Gatwick is? If the CAA had an environmental duty, no noble Lord has explained to me, by way of example, what it would do with it that is Earl Attlee: My Lords, a little inspiration comes not already done by some other means. and says that it does. My noble friend Lord Jenkin asked about the publication requirements in Clause 84. We are not Lord Jenkin of Roding: May I follow up the point quite there yet but I will write to my noble friend and, that the noble Lord, Lord Soley, has just made? My if necessary, he can table an amendment to Clause 84. noble friend invited me earlier to table amendments when we get to Clause 84. I do not wish to amend Lord Clinton-Davis: The noble Earl has referred to Clause 84, but I need to know the context in which the Clause 84, which is highly desirable apart from one information requirements and powers that will be feature. It would be helpful to allude to that now. Why given by that clause will operate. If, as has been does the CAA have to divulge environmental information suggested by other Members of the Committee, there only if it considers it appropriate? should be a duty on the CAA, perhaps the clause is all GC 157 Civil Aviation Bill[27 JUNE 2012] Civil Aviation Bill GC 158 right. If we are to reach the next stage of the Bill support the idea that airport operators—whether or without having a government amendment on the not they are subject to economic regulation—should Marshalled List that says what is happening to the be able to invest in appropriate environmental measures. general power, it is quite difficult to know what to do. This concern was frequently raised in the House of My interpretation is that while my noble friend has Commons. However, obligations should not be put on rehearsed some of the questions and objections, he is some airports but not others depending on their economic not shutting his mind to this. The possibility remains, regulatory status. therefore, that there will be a government amendment Our position is that a licensed airport operator before Report, in which case we can look at Clause 84 should not be unable to recover, through the regulatory in the light of that government amendment. However, settlements, costs arising from undertaking environmental if there is no such government amendment by that investment where an unregulated competitive airport time, it is very difficult to see what else you could do to would choose to incur similar costs for similar purposes Clause 84. The point I made is that these things hang and be able to recover those costs. After all, the overall together. aim of economic regulation is often cited as delivering the outcomes that would otherwise occur in a competitive Earl Attlee: My Lords, I assure the Committee that market. Therefore, it is my belief that environmental I have a very well thought-out speech. I believe that investment that is in the passengers’ interests in the the upcoming aviation policy framework, due to be provision of airport operation services should be included adopted by March 2013, represents a more proportionate in an airport’s regulatory settlement. This is a point on and effective way for the Government to address the which more clarity could be provided in the Bill. environmental impacts across the aviation sector as a However, I am hesitant to accept these amendments whole. As I have said, this Government take seriously today because I believe that it would be desirable to the environmental impacts of all airports. With regard specify some or all of the environmental effects to to the other amendments, several of these have been which the CAA must have regard. Furthermore, we extensively debated in the other place, and the need to ensure that the drafting does not have the Government’s position on these remains unchanged. capacity to create distorting effects by putting greater First, I turn to Amendment 4. As your Lordships obligations on regulated airports relative to non-regulated will be aware, the previous Government decided to airports. With the assurance that I will consider these include a similar duty to that contained in Amendment matters in detail ahead of Report, I hope noble Lords 10. However, in practice the supplementary duty would will be willing to withdraw Amendment 4, and not have no substance, so the Secretary of State decided in press Amendments 6 and 69. However, I am willing to July 2010 to omit it. This is because the duty as consider Amendments 5, 7 and 13A— drafted would appear to require the CAA, in discharging its primary duty, to take account of the licence holder’s Lord Berkeley: The Minister gave a very interesting obligation to comply with planning obligations. It is speech and I congratulate him. He mentioned some or not for the CAA, as an economic regulator, to enforce all environmental issues, but is that not moving into a planning law through licence conditions. In so far as a rather dangerous area of lists and what goes into a licence condition purported to require the licence holder list? Are you going to include bats but not tadpoles, or to breach planning law or otherwise act in breach of noise and things like that? I hope that he will take into planning law, it would appear to be unlawful. Regardless account that it is very dangerous to produce lists of of whether the CAA had this explicit duty or not, the these things because you might leave things out or add CAA will need to have proper regard to the airport’s things in that you subsequently do not want. obligation to comply with all applicable legal obligations, including planning law. Earl Attlee: The noble Lord makes a very good Amendment 6, in the name of the noble Baroness, point, and I am sure that my officials will not let me go Lady Worthington, covers climate change. While too far. However, I am willing to consider Amendments important, this is also unnecessary because other policies 5, 7 and 13A in greater detail, with a view to returning seek to achieve it. Separately, the Government have to the matter on Report. I would find further meetings committed to producing a sustainable framework for with noble Lords extremely valuable. UK aviation that supports economic growth and addresses While I appreciate the spirit in which noble Lords aviation’s environmental impacts. In addition, there have proposed these amendments today, as I have said, are other policies, such as the European Union Emissions there are a few reasons why I am hesitant to accept Trading System, which was mentioned by the noble them now. Interested parties have made it clear that Baroness when she touched on efficiency issues. the CAA should not be the environmental regulator. If Furthermore, this amendment would appear to go such duties were to be imposed, I also believe it would beyond airport economic regulation and it is unclear be desirable to specify some or all of the environmental how the CAA would go about fulfilling this duty—a effects to which the CAA must have regard. With the point I made earlier. assurance that I will consider this matter in detail However, the Government have some sympathy ahead of Report, I hope that the noble Baroness and with the thinking behind the remaining amendments—that other noble Lords will be able to withdraw and not to is, Amendments 5, 7 and 13A. In particular, this press their amendments. debate allows us to acknowledge the importance of allowing appropriate investment at airports to mitigate Baroness Worthington: I thank the Minister for his their environmental impacts and those of activities comments. I am encouraged that he anticipates that I associated with them. Without a doubt, this Government will not be disappointed and that he will consider GC 159 Civil Aviation Bill[LORDS] Civil Aviation Bill GC 160

[BARONESS WORTHINGTON] particular Clause 84 and how that relates to the duties further a number of the amendments. I come back to that we hope will be created. My noble friend Lord a few of the things that he mentioned. It would seem Clinton-Davis talked about the fact that the aircraft odd not to introduce such a duty because it would and aviation industry wish to respond. I hope I have apply to only 55% of the market and not 100%. captured most of the contributions and I thank the Clearly, 55% is better than nothing. I know that he will noble Earl for his encouraging words. I look forward say that it is about competitive distortions, but let us to something being brought forward by the Government be honest—I think that the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, and beg leave to withdraw my amendment. made this clear—those three airports have a distinct advantage over the others in terms of scale. They are Amendment 4 withdrawn. off the scale in comparison to the other airports. There are many other environmental regulations that Amendments 5 to 7 not moved. have this differentiation between the smaller and larger, dominant operators. There are often lots of de minimis thresholds put into regulations to account for the Amendment 8 difference in scale. I really do not see that as a problem, Moved by Lord Rosser and I urge the Government to go through with the 55% if they are very keen on environmental issues, 8: Clause 1, page 2, line 19, leave out paragraph (b) which they say they are. I wonder—and this may be something that we can Lord Rosser: My Lords, this is an opportunity to meet about—whether Amendment 69 does not help to debate a rather more mundane amendment compared address this question by creating a more general duty with the ones we have just been discussing. This that would cover all of the CAA’s operations. I can amendment and Amendment 14 in the group delete understand the question of how CAA would the references in Clause 1(4)(b) and Clause 2(5)(b) to operationalise it, given that it does not license the the principle in the general duties of the Civil Aviation other operators, but I am sure that it is not beyond our Authority and the Secretary of State respectively that, wit to be able to work through that. “regulatory activities should be targeted only at cases in which action is needed”. The Minister talked about planning and said that he could not understand what it would be used for. I Clause 1(4)(a) and Clause 2(5)(a) both state that, echo the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, in saying that we “regulatory activities should be carried out in a way which is are trying to prevent a legal challenge and to give the transparent, accountable, proportionate and consistent”. CAA cover if it chooses to apply its discretion and It is not entirely clear why either Clause 1(4)(b) or include discretionary spending within the regulated Clause 2(5)(b) is needed. Under subsections (4)(a) and asset base. So it would be used as a defensive measure (5)(a), regulatory activities should be carried out in a against being forced not to include environmental way that is proportionate, but surely it would not be measures. There are other things that relate specifically proportionate if those regulatory activities were targeted to planning. Often planning approvals include Section 106 at cases in which action was not needed. To do so agreements—additional obligations to which a developer would surely not be proportionate and would therefore voluntarily agrees. So they might not be caught within be outside the terms of subsections (4)(a) and (5)(a). If a very strict interpretation of the law, because they are the Minister is not inclined to accept my point that the very often quite loosely worded. So there are some subsection that this amendment deletes is unnecessary, questions there about planning. it would be helpful if he could indicate why and also give some examples of regulatory activities that would I pay tribute to my noble friends and other noble be proportionate even though they were being targeted Lords who have contributed to the debate. It has been at cases where action was not needed. I beg to move. a good debate and I am very encouraged. We all recognise, as my noble friends Lord Clinton-Davis, Lord Soley and Lady McIntosh have accepted, that 7.15 pm the aviation industry should not be singled out for not Lord Berkeley: My Lords, this is an important pair embracing the environment. It clearly does move forward of amendments because surely the regulator is independent on a voluntary basis. That is exactly what we are trying and should therefore be able to make its own decisions to say here: we want to enable and allow this voluntary about whether it carries out an investigation and, if so, move towards a more efficient, cleaner and more what action it takes following the transparent, accountable, environmentally responsible industry. We do not want proportionate and consistent rules. If both paragraphs this Bill to stop that. That is a very important point. (b) mentioned in these amendments are included, I We are not saying the sector does not wish to move. I can see some companies being regulated starting legal am sure it does, given all the pressures that it is under. challenges to suggest that they do not need to be My noble friend Lord Berkeley raised the point, regulated and that it is going to be very expensive for which we have made before, that other sectors are them and asking why should they answer this question. regulated with environmental duties. He specifically I understand that the Government have a deregulation mentioned rail as an example. Rail often competes agenda and are trying to get rid of unnecessary regulations, directly with the aviation sector when it comes to quangos and everything else, but this indicates that the short-haul flights and it seems odd that rail should company being regulated will be able to put pressure have an environmental duty but aviation not. The on the regulator in an unsatisfactory way. It is quite noble Lord, Lord Jenkin of Roding, raised some very clear from paragraph (a) that, important points about other elements of the Bill, in “transparent, accountable, proportionate and consistent”, GC 161 Civil Aviation Bill[27 JUNE 2012] Civil Aviation Bill GC 162 set out how it would do it. Paragraph (b) is rather It is known that economic regulation is an imperfect dangerous. It will be difficult for the CAA not to get intervention. It should be used only where an unregulated involved in it, and I am not sure why it needs to be market fails to deliver competitive outcomes. However, there. Perhaps the Minister can explain. used appropriately, it can be an effective tool. The provisions in Clauses 1(4) and 2(5) ensure that this is Lord Clinton-Davis: On the face of it, paragraph (b) the case in the Civil Aviation Bill. Furthermore, as an is otiose. I have dealt with several cases in the sub- experienced regulator, the CAA is not troubled by committee investigating legislation, of which I am a having regard to the principles set out in Clause 1(4)(b). member. It is incumbent upon the Minister to say why Indeed, it considers it sound regulatory practice, as do this provision is included. the Government.

Lord Empey: Does the Minister feel that these two Lord Clinton-Davis: It would be convenient for the paragraphs could leave the CAA open to judicial Committee if the Minister would say that he will have review by disgruntled operators? They are adding another look at this particular provision because, something unclear with the definition of what is and is notwithstanding what he has said, it is not sensible. not needed. It may be intended to prevent overzealous application of restrictions on operators, but these Earl Attlee: My Lords, further to the question of days, one always has to look at the potential for the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, the noble Lord, judicial review, and I suspect that the way this is Lord Rosser, asked me a most ingenious question— drafted might leave the CAA open. It might be possible which my officials and I will carefully study in to amend the first paragraph to meet the needs of the Hansard—and if he has exposed a problem I will deal Government, but I hope the Minister will address the with it. However, I suspect that the advice from my legal issue. officials is correct. For these reasons, I hope the noble Lord will withdraw the amendment. Earl Attlee: My Lords, I must admit that I am puzzled by these amendments. I take it that they are Lord Berkeley: Perhaps I may press the Minister a merely probing amendments, but they are certainly little more on the text in paragraph (b). On what basis not mundane. They seek to weaken the principles that does the CAA or the Secretary of State decide that the CAA and the Secretary of State must have regard action is needed? Surely they have to investigate before to when discharging their economic regulation functions. they can come to a conclusion. It seems a circular Specifically, they seek to remove the need to have process. regard to the principle that regulatory activities should be targeted only at cases in which action is needed. To this extent, the amendment may inadvertently facilitate Earl Attlee: Yes. However, we are talking about the or encourage excessive regulation, and I am sure that principle of regulation that you do not do things that the Committee will agree that that is clearly not desirable. are unnecessary: you target your effort at a problem. If I ask noble Lords to oppose these amendments today there is not a problem, you leave it alone. because they would remove provisions in the Bill that The noble Lord, Lord Empey, asked whether the strengthen the adherence of the CAA and the Secretary subsections could leave the CAA open to JR. These of State to good economic regulation practice. are secondary, subordinate obligations to which the This first amendment seeks to delete one of the CAA must have regard. Provided the CAA turns its principles that the CAA must have regard to in performing mind to these matters and considers them, it will, its duties under subsections (1) and (2) of Clause 1, prima facie, have complied with the obligation. which sets out the CAA’s general duty. That principle is that, Lord Rosser: My Lords, I thank the Minister for his “regulatory activities should be targeted only at cases in which reply and other noble Lords who have taken part in action is needed”. this brief debate. The second amendment makes the same provision for The Minister said that he will look at Hansard to the Secretary of State’s duties. see what point I was making. To reiterate, the question The principles set out in Clause 1(4) and Clause 2(5) I am raising is: what is the necessity for the two paragraphs are those that the Better Regulation Task Force defined that my amendment seeks to delete? Paragraph (b) in 1997 as in keeping with good regulation. They were states that, that good regulation should be transparent, accountable, “regulatory activities should be targeted only at cases in which proportionate, consistent, and targeted. action is needed”. These principles are not in the Bill by accident. That comes after paragraph (a), which states that, They are a well recognised starting point and one “regulatory activities should be carried out in a way which is looks to encourage those responsible for economic transparent, accountable, proportionate and consistent”. regulation to apply them appropriately.Having provisions I appreciate that the Minister has said that he will look in legislation that reflect these principles is sensible at the question and respond but, to reiterate the question and makes clear what is expected of regulators. It is that I asked, how can something be proportionate if it not only desirable but good practice to have these is a regulatory activity targeted at a case in which provisions to encourage the CAA to discharge its action is not needed? Surely, by definition, if regulatory Clause 1 functions in a manner that discourages action is not needed and you take regulatory action, unnecessary regulation. that cannot be proportionate. GC 163 Civil Aviation Bill[LORDS] Civil Aviation Bill GC 164

[LORD ROSSER] airport, and Manston and other similar airports. It is I am happy to leave it in the context that the a question of how these would be considered. What is Minister will look at the point I have raised and within the scope of the CAA on these issues given that respond to me. I would be grateful for that. I am we have dominant areas and dominant airports? As I asking a genuine question. We are all interested in read it, there are the three main airports around making sure that there is no unnecessary verbiage in London that we have just mentioned, but Luton is legislation, which is the point I am making about the pretty big and there are others. It seems odd to put this two paragraphs that the amendment proposes should into the legislation without some explanation. An be deleted. However, in the context that the Minister explanation would help me, but I apologise if this has will look at the issue and write to me, I am happy to already been explained at Second Reading. withdraw the amendment. 7.30 pm Amendment 8 withdrawn. Earl Attlee: The noble Lord mentioned slots. These Amendments 9 to 10 not moved. are regulated by the world slot guidelines and, in Europe, by the EU slot regulations. They are implemented Clause 1 agreed. by Airport Coordination Limited in the UK. The Government do not and cannot have a role in slot Amendment 11 not moved. allocation.

Clause 2 : Secretary of State’s general duty Lord Berkeley: If there appears to be a dominant position in slots, does that come under the CAA or the Amendment 12 had been withdrawn from the Marshalled Government? Is there any competition authority, or is List. it completely outside?

Amendment 13 not moved. Earl Attlee: My Lords, that is clearly a competition Amendment 13A, in substitution for Amendment 12, issue. I am not certain about it but I will write to the not moved. noble Lord. Clause 5 defines what comprises a “dominant airport Amendment 14 not moved. area” and a “dominant airport”. Under subsection (3), “airport area” means an area that consists of or Clause 2 agreed. forms part of an airport, including land and buildings. This provision is included to allow for the possibility Clauses 3 and 4 agreed. of there being more than one operator at an individual airport. This could be the case if, for example, an airline acquired or leased a terminal building. As there Clause 5 : Dominant areas and dominant airports can be more than one airport area at an airport, it follows that there can be more than one operator of an Debate on whether Clause 5 should stand part of the airport area at an airport. Bill. Subsection (1) states that an airport area is dominant if the CAA has made a determination that the market Lord Berkeley: This is by nature a probing question. power test is met in relation to the area and publishes a I apologise to the Committee for not having been here notice to that effect. Subsection (2) provides that an at Second Reading. I am confused and I am sure that airport is dominant if all or part of its core area is a the Minister can help my confusion. We are talking dominant area or part of a dominant area. Subsection (4) here about an economic regulation of possibly three describes what comprises a core area. Broadly speaking, airports around London. Clearly there are issues of the core area includes runways and associated facilities, competition for businesses within specific airports, passenger terminals and cargo processing areas. It and from the way I read it that is clearly in the Bill. I follows from that that non-core airport areas include am slightly surprised that there is nothing in it—that I car parks with pedestrian access to the terminal building, can see—about competition between airports. If Stansted or the forecourt of a passage in the terminal, including is sold, you will have three different owners of the pick-up and drop-off points. Therefore, if the only three major operators, as well as Luton. We are talking dominant airport area at airport X comprised the about economic regulation and I would have thought pick-up and drop-off points, airport X would not be a that the Bill must include, in addition to the things dominant airport because no part of the core area that are there, regulation of slots and charges and would comprise or be included in a dominant area. We consideration of dominant position. I know that we should remember that the core area is the runways, will come on to that last issue later. associated facilities, passenger terminals and so on. What is the market in which the dominant position In such circumstances, no part of the airport could is supposed to be considered? The noble Lord, Lord be subject to regulation. The underlying thinking is to Bradshaw, in his remarks on Amendment 1, listed a ensure that no part of an airport should be subject to number of airports within the London or south-east regulation unless some part of the core area is dominant. area. I think that he forgot Southend International, This construction is required to prevent unnecessary which is now marketing itself as an international regulation where there is a problem only with peripheral GC 165 Civil Aviation Bill[27 JUNE 2012] Civil Aviation Bill GC 166 areas. This distinction between core and non-core Earl Attlee: My Lords, I shall speak also to airport areas is necessary to ensure that the CAA Amendments 16 and 23. These three amendments are regulates ancillary airport operation services only where being taken together. Collectively, they will ensure that some or all of the core area of the airport is dominant; the CAA must have regard to the extensive guidance it is unable to exercise regulatory control over core and advice published by the EU and UK competition areas where only non-core areas are dominant. authorities, for example the Office of Fair Trading. Allowing for more than one operator at an airport We have been reflecting on comments made in the differs from the approach used in the Airports Act 1986, other place regarding the definition of “substantial which refers to an airport operator as, market power” in the Bill. In particular, during debates “the person for the time being having the management of an in Committee in the other place, points were made airport, or, in relation to a particular airport, the management of that there could be some uncertainty regarding how that airport”. the CAA might assess “substantial market power”. Although we believe that the definitions and specific That Act does not include provision about cases in meanings of the terms relating to market power that which there is more than one operator of an airport. I are used in the Bill are clear, we see merit in providing make clear to the Committee that there are no powers more clarity that the CAA must have regard to relevant in this clause to introduce intra-airport competition. competition guidance when carrying out the market Rather, the clause allows for the possibility that power test. competition may be introduced within our airports—for example, inter-terminal competition. These provisions Clause 6(1) states that market power test is met in are included to keep open the option of competition relation to the airport area only if the CAA is satisfied within airports in future. that tests A, B and C are all met by the operator of that airport area. These tests are designed to ensure The Competition Commission has previously expressed that operators of airport areas are subject to economic interest in this concept and suggested that the, regulation only if under test A, “legislation … should allow for terminals to be developed or “the … operator has, or is likely to acquire, substantial market redeveloped and to be operated separately from runway facilities, power in a market, either alone or taken with … other persons”, where appropriate”. under test B, general, While the Competition Commission has no present “competition law does not provide sufficient protection against intention to impose such intra-airport competition, it the risk that the … operator may engage in conduct that amounts is supportive of keeping the option open for the future. to an abuse of substantial market power”, We therefore need to ensure that the regulatory framework and under test C, is capable of operating in the event that inter-terminal “the benefits of regulating the … operator … are likely to competition becomes a feature of the UK airport outweigh” sector. By including it in the Bill, we avoid the need for a future Government to have to return to Parliament the costs. for fresh primary legislation. On a previous amendment, I was asked what the market is. A market for airport operation services Lord Berkeley: I am grateful to the Minister for that could be as narrow as the baggage handling services at very clear, if somewhat complex, explanation. If I Heathrow Terminal 5, or as wide as airport operation have it right, a core area has to include the landing and services at airports in London and the south-east. take-off runways. I cannot see how more than one Other examples of airport operation services include landing and take-off runway can be owned in one the provision of airport facilities for car parking, airport. If Heathrow separated the ownership of the facilities for shops and ground handling services. north and south runways, then you would have some The term “substantial market power” in test A is competition. However, if the core area has to include the term used in the current criteria that the Secretary the landing and take-off, surely it would be impossible of State applies when making designation decisions to have competition within any of the airports in the on whether an airport should be subject to price south-east. Have I misunderstood this? I would be control. It is well understood and accepted in this grateful if the Minister could explain further. context. The previous Government consulted on the wording of this limb and the other limbs of the test for Earl Attlee: I do not know whether or not the noble whether an airport should be subject to economic Lord has misunderstood. I suspect that he will have to regulation. In light of that consultation, we see no read what I have said very carefully in order to reason to change the wording. In carrying out test A, understand it. the CAA expects to follow the guidelines published by UK competition authorities—for example the Office Clause 5 agreed of Fair Trading and the European Commission—for . the assessment of market power. This amendment will put that beyond doubt. These are generic guidelines Clause 6 : Market power test for use in any industry and provide a useful starting point for assessing the degree of competition faced by an airport. I beg to move. Amendment 15 Moved by Earl Attlee Lord Berkeley: I am grateful to the noble Earl for 15: Clause 6, page 6, line 1, leave out “Treaty on the Functioning that explanation. I have a couple of very simple and of the European Union” and insert “TFEU” quick questions. I assume that when he says there is an GC 167 Civil Aviation Bill[LORDS] Civil Aviation Bill GC 168

[LORD BERKELEY] a bit like overkill, but the Minister is making sure he issue about being subject to price control, he is talking has belt and braces with regard to this, in response to about baggage handling, car parking and things like the challenges that were made in the other place. I am that rather than the price of slots, which I think he quite sure my colleagues there will join me in thanking said is outside everything. I would be grateful for his him for these amendments and accepting that they go confirmation of that. a considerable way to allaying past anxieties and help the Bill. Lord Davies of Oldham: The Minister will, no doubt, give an answer to that in just a moment. I am grateful Earl Attlee: The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, is right to him for these amendments. As he said, there was that it is not the price of slots. The price of slots has an considerable anxiety in the other place when discussing economic value, but it is not regulated. the concept of the dominant market. I am still trying to get my head round the position in respect of baggage Amendment 15 agreed. at Heathrow being a dominant market, but will take the Minister’s word for that. I certainly accept the Clause 6, as amended, agreed. other extreme he put forward: all the airports in the south-east. We appreciate that, with these amendments, the Minister has helped to reassure us over the anxieties Viscount Younger of Leckie: My Lords, I believe that were expressed in the other place. We all appreciate this is a convenient moment to adjourn this Committee that it is not easy to get to this definition and that until Monday at 3.30 pm. considerable efforts have been made. At first, I thought the cross-reference to the European Commission looked Committee adjourned at 7.43 pm. WS 9 Written Statements[27 JUNE 2012] Written Statements WS 10

The agenda was confined to discussion of the three Written Statements main common fisheries policy (CFP) reform regulations. Following previous discussions of key aspects of the Wednesday 27 June 2012 package at Council in March, April and May, the presidency aimed to agree Council general approaches on the CFP basic regulation and Common Market Credit Unions Organisation (CMO) proposals. The presidency also Statement submitted a progress report for Council to note on the later proposal for a European Maritime and Fisheries Fund (EMFF), on which there had been insufficient The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department time for agreement to be reached. for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): On 10 May 2012 Following an initial table round it was clear that the the Department for Work and Pensions published the main outstanding issues on the compromise texts related credit union feasibility study looking at the sustainability to discards, maximum sustainable yield (MSY), and of credit unions. It also examined what more can be regionalisation. On discards, a significant number of done to expand them to serve many more people on member states were opposed to early deadlines for the lower incomes. The study has been well received by the introduction of landing obligations, or opposed to sector and a range of stakeholders. legal provisions on the elimination of discards in Credit unions are doing a good job offering access principle. On MSY,some member states were reluctant to credit and other financial services for people on to agree challenging targets and raised concerns about lower incomes. They provide a real alternative to practical implications in specific fisheries. Many member higher cost credit available from the commercial sector states expressed concerns about the role of the and illegal loan sharks. Therefore, if credit unions are Commission under a regionalised process. ready for the challenge of modernisation and expansion Discussions of these issues continued throughout we are willing to support them. Today I am announcing the day and into the early hours of the following that the Government will take forward the findings of morning with the presidency pushing hard for agreement the feasibility study. In particular, the DWP will make to a general approach. The UK played a major role in a further investment of up to £38 million over the next the process, forming alliances in support of our objectives three years in credit unions. This investment, which is and helping to shape the final compromise texts. in addition to the £13 million we invested in 2011-12, will be conditional upon the credit union industry Council eventually reached agreement on a general meeting a number of agreed milestones for collaboration, approach on the CFP reform regulations which met modernisation and expansion. Our aim will be to many of the UK’s objectives. The agreement included ensure the industry’s financial sustainability by the introduction of a discard ban by 1 Jan 2014 for pelagic end of the project. stocks and phased introduction beginning in 2015 and fully in place by 2018 for other UK fisheries; deadlines The feasibility study showed that at present even for the achievement of maximum sustainable yield the biggest credit unions struggle to meet the operating (MSY) levels in fisheries by 2015 where possible, and costs of making small loans to people on lower incomes. by 2020 at the latest; and agreement on the processes Therefore in addition to our investment in modernisation to regionalise decision-making in line with the proposals and expansion, we plan to consult on raising the cap the UK had developed with other member states. This on the interest rate that credit unions are permitted to was an important first step in securing genuine and charge on loans, to determine whether it will help effective CFP reform. The final agreement through credit unions achieve financial sustainability and reach co-decision with the European Parliament is not expected a wider range of customers. to be concluded until late 2013. The Department for Work and Pensions, HM Treasury, and the Department for Business Innovation and Skills will continue to work closely on all aspects of the Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My right honourable credit union expansion project, including the formal friend the Secretary of State for Environment, Food consultation on the interest rate cap and any subsequent and Rural Affairs (Caroline Spelman) has today made legislative changes. the following Statement. The Agriculture and Fisheries Council on Monday EU: Agriculture and Fisheries Council 18 June in Luxembourg was attended by my right Statement honourable friend the Minister of State for Agriculture and Food (Jim Paice). Alun Davies AM also attended. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department The Council discussed the draft rural development for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor regulations, which set the rules for the use of Pillar 2 of Holbeach): My right honourable friend the Secretary of the CAP. There were two questions: whether there of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs should be a minimum percentage of spending on (Caroline Spelman) has today made the following Statement. environmental activity, and EU co-financing of Pillar 2 The Agriculture and Fisheries Council on Tuesday measures. 12 June in Luxembourg dealt only with fisheries business. On environmental activity, the proposal included a My honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary non-binding guideline of a minimum of 25%. Member for Natural Environment and Fisheries (Richard Benyon) States split three ways: those that felt it unnecessary; represented the UK. Richard Lochhead MSP and those that could accept if it remained non-binding, Alun Davies AM were also in attendance. and those that wanted it to be legally binding. There WS 11 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 12 were also calls to include more areas under the provision EU: Employment, Social Policy, Health such as forestry, Natura 2000 and the water framework and Consumer Affairs Council directive. On co-financing, the Commission proposal was for Statement a single rate of EU funding for most spending in most member states, with a higher rate for less developed The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department regions and some specific measures. Member states’ of Health (Earl Howe): My honourable friend the views were varied: no increase at all, a simple rate Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department would be a useful simplification, requests for national of Health (Anne Milton) has made the following flexibility, higher rates for countries undergoing austerity, Written Ministerial Statement. and that environmental measures could be co-financed at 100%. The UK and others argued that money Health Ministers met on 22 June in Luxembourg transferred from Pillar 1 to 2 should not require for the Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer national co-financing. Affairs (EPSCO) Council. I represented the UK. The presidency presented its report on the CAP The council agreed a partial general approach on negotiations. It was broadly welcomed by member the proposal for a regulation on establishing the Health states, but did stimulate some discussion, notably on for Growth programme 2014-20, the third successive greening and the need to develop wider options for public health programme. The Commission and some Pillar 1. Newer member states wanted a solution for member states’ preferred approach was not reflected the convergence of payment levels between member in the text on the table, particularly the amended title states. A number of member states noted stronger and measures around differential co-financing. However, concern about the proposals on capping than was with one exception, all member states supported the reflected in the report. partial general approach. The UK lifted its parliamentary The Council adopted conclusions on the protection scrutiny reserve and supported the proposal, stressing and welfare of animals. The Netherlands submitted a that the negotiation of sectoral programmes should declaration expressing concern at the Commission’s not be prejudicial to the wider negotiations on the lack of ambition in the EU welfare strategy and the multiannual financial framework. importance of dealing with the shortcomings identified There was an orientation debate on the draft decision in its review of the animal transport legislation—and on serious cross-border threats to health. Most member abstained. Sweden, supported by Belgium, Austria states, including the UK, agreed with the presidency’s and Denmark, made a statement to the same effect as proposal to delete the article giving the Commission that made by the Netherlands. The UK also made a power to introduce common temporary health measures statement on improving welfare during transport, noting to contain serious health threats. There was also broad particularly the importance of scientific evidence. The consensus that the co-ordination of response planning Commission noted the widespread support for its was primarily an issue for member states, and best strategy and promised to bring forward various non- achieved through the Health Security Committee, without legislative proposals to address some of the practical any need for binding measures. problems on animal transportation. Council conclusions on combating antimicrobial Under any other business the Commission provided resistance were adopted without comment. information on the level of member state compliance on sow stalls. Eighteen would be compliant by 1 January Under any other business (AOB), the presidency 2013 (UK already compliant), but at least nine would ran through the achievements in the field of health not. The Commission stated it would bring infringement under its presidency, touching upon the conclusion of proceedings against non-compliant states. discussions between the Council and the European The Commission had written to Ministers on the Parliament on proposals concerning pharmacovigilance, G20 Action Plan about food price volatility and and on the presidency’s conclusion that it would not agriculture. G20 Ministers and officials had met in be possible to make further progress on the information Mexico to discuss implementation, and its report and to patients proposal. The Commission drew delegations’ recommendations were discussed at the G20 summit attention to its communication on the innovation on 18 and 19 June. partnership on active and health ageing, and gave an overview of its contents. France presented two AOB The presidency informed the council of draft points (the first jointly with Luxembourg) on the conclusions on antimicrobial resistance, expecting the safeguarding of the supply of raw materials for conclusions to be adopted at the Employment, Social pharmaceuticals, and on the MEDICRIME convention. Policy, Health and Consumer Affairs Council (EPSCO) on 22 June. Finally, there was a lunchtime debate on the joint procurement of medical countermeasures in response The Commission presented its routine report on to major outbreaks of communicable diseases (such as organic production and labelling. There would be no a pandemic flu). Some member states were reserved legislative proposals now but it would engage in a in indicating whether they intended to participate consultation until the end of 2013 in such a programme, and whether it should be Poland and Lithuania supported by eight member extended to facilitate the procurement of non-emergency states asked for export refunds to be reopened. This countermeasures. The UK maintained that it did not was rejected by the Commission but they would keep intend to participate in a joint procurement exercise at the situation under review. this stage. WS 13 Written Statements[27 JUNE 2012] Written Statements WS 14

Fraud Act 2006 Similarly the service will continue to monitor the timely delivery of key outputs to customers for redundancy Statement payments and reports to creditors, as well as the overall level of customer satisfaction. The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord At present, the service is undergoing an independent McNally): My right honourable friend the Lord review of its funding and corporate structure, which is Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Kenneth due to report to BIS at the end of June 2012. As the Clarke) has made the following Written Ministerial recommendations from this review will, no doubt, Statement. impact heavily on the organisation’s activity for 2012-13 and beyond, I have agreed that, while its key targets I have today laid before Parliament the Government’s should not change from those issued here, its corporate memorandum to the Justice Committee on post-legislative plan should be published once the outcome of the scrutiny of the Fraud Act 2006. Copies are available in review is known. the Vote Office and the Printed Paper Office. Therefore the Insolvency Service corporate plan The Fraud Act 2006 reformed the law on fraud and will be available from the end of August 2012 at included the creation of a general offence of fraud http://www.bis.gov.uk/insolvency/About-us. with three ways of committing it: by false representation, by failing to disclose information and by abuse of a Insolvency Service position of trust. Published Targets 2011-12 Actual 2012-13 Target These reforms have been implemented, in line with Customers and the stated objectives of the Act, as detailed in the Stakeholders memorandum. Percentage of 94% 90% customers who were The memorandum also reviews the use of the common very satisfied or law offence of conspiracy to defraud and concludes satisfied with the service that this remains a useful tool in prosecutors’ they received (ORS/ RPS) armouries. Stakeholder confidence 65% >65% in The Service’s Insolvency Service: Performance Targets enforcement regime (IES/ORS) Statement Staff Insolvency Service staff 47% >47% The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department engagement score, as for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): recorded through the My honourable friend the Minister for Employment Civil Service Staff Relations, Consumer and Postal Affairs, has today Survey made the following Statement. Service Delivery Percentage of reports I have today agreed to the publication of the Insolvency issued to creditors Service’s performance targets for the period 2012-13. within 8 weeks (ORS) Over the past two years there has been a significant a) for bankruptcy cases 93% 92% fall in the number of bankruptcies, which has driven b) for company cases 80% 80% down the number of new compulsory insolvency cases % of appropriate 99% 90% disqualification cases in dealt with the by the official receiver from 78,000 cases which proceedings are in 2009-10 to a level of 43,600 in 2011-12, with the instigated (S16 letter expectation that this will continue to fall to around issued) in under 23 35,000 in 2012-13. months (ORS/IES) % of live investigation 86% 90% In response to this fall in cases, the service has cut completed within 6 many of its costs, including a reduction in its staff months (IES) complement from 3,200 to 2,100, and has introduced % Bankruptcy 71% 80% a number of significant operational changes throughout Restrictions authorised 2011-12. I have, none the less, set the service some within 11 months of the date of insolvency challenging targets for the coming year. (ORS/IES) In response to the significant change which the Action redundancy service is undergoing, it has decided to increase its payment claims (RPS) focus on staff engagement and has introduced its a) within 3 weeks 68% 80% score for this as a published target in 2012-13. b) within 6 weeks 85% 93% In reviewing its other targets the service has decided to increase their number, so that they cover a broader The service will also look to build upon its current range of enforcement outputs and improve consistency customer service excellence and Investor in People in the way in which timeliness for enforcement is status, by gaining re-accreditation in 2012. measured, with the focus being to ensure that statutory In addition to these targets the service is required to deadlines are met. The service will continue to measure meet government-wide targets relating to replying to its stakeholders’ confidence in the enforcement regime, correspondence from honourable Members, and making seeking to improve on last year’s score of 65%. payments to suppliers. WS 15 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 16

2011-12 2012-13 These consultations will close on 18 September Other Targets Performance Target 2012. Electronic copies of both documents have been Reply to 87.1% 100% correspondence from placed in the Libraries of the House. Members of Parliament within 10 days Terrorism Act 2000 and Part 1 of the Process payments to 98.9% 100% suppliers within 30 days Terrorism Act 2006: Annual Report Statement The Government have also instructed departments and agencies to maximise levels of payment of undisputed The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): invoices within eight days. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department (Theresa May) has today made the following Written Ministerial Statement. Security Industry Authority: I am pleased to announce that Mr David Anderson Annual Report QC has completed his second annual report as the Statement statutory independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, on the operation of the Terrorism Act 2000 and Part 1 of the Terrorism Act 2006 in 2011. This report will be The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): laid before the House today. My honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary I will carefully consider his recommendations in of State for Equalities and Criminal Information (Lynne consultation with other relevant departments and agencies. Featherstone) has today made the following Written The Government’s response to his recommendations Ministerial Statement. will be laid before the House in due course. I am pleased to announce that the annual report 2011-12 and accounts of the Security Industry Authority (SIA) will be laid before Parliament and published Transport: Sustainable Transport today. Statement Copies of the report will be available in the Vote Office. Earl Attlee: My honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Norman Baker) has made the following ministerial Statement. Taxation: Employee Share Schemes I am pleased to announce today that I am awarding Statement a further £266 million to support authorities in delivering local economic growth while cutting carbon emissions from transport. This funding unlocks further local The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord funding sources to deliver £460 million investment in Sassoon): My honourable friend the Exchequer Secretary local sustainable transport schemes. to the Treasury (David Gauke) has today made the Today’s announcement is the third and final instalment following Written Ministerial Statement. of the local sustainable transport fund, which is now The Government have today published two separate delivering over £1 billion investment in sustainable consultation documents on changes to tax advantaged travel across England, and demonstrating that economic employee share schemes. growth and carbon reduction go hand in hand. To The first contains the Government’s initial response facilitate today’s announcements, I have secured an to the recommendations published by the Office of additional £40 million for the fund, on top of the Tax Simplification (OTS) on 6 March 2012 in its original £560 million allocation. review of approved employee share schemes. The On 20 December 2011, the department received Government intend to take forward many of these 13 business cases for large projects for the local sustainable recommendations, including one of the OTS’s main transport fund. proposals—that self-certification by businesses should I have decided to announce £225 million for 12 large replace the current HMRC scheme approvals process. projects today, and I have also reserved up to £5 million The Government welcome views from interested funding for a small project from Tyne and Wear ITA, stakeholders on the design of detailed proposals in which my officials will progress with officers from this area. Tyne and Wear during the coming weeks. The list of The document also requests further evidence on decisions made today regarding large projects is attached. potential costs, benefits and other impacts of the On 24 February 2012, the department received majority of the OTS’s supplementary recommendations, 53 small project bids to tranche 2. On 24 May 2012 to help inform future decisions on whether to proceed I announced £113 million to fund 30 small projects, with these. and I am today committing a further £41 million to The second document published today seeks views fund 15 more. The list of decisions made today regarding on a proposed extension to the enterprise management the remaining tranche 2 bids is also attached. incentives scheme to benefit academic employees of I am very pleased that every single eligible local qualifying companies. This consultation was first authority across England has applied for funding to announced at Budget 2012. the local sustainable transport fund, either as a lead WS 17 Written Statements[27 JUNE 2012] Written Statements WS 18

bidder, or as a partner authority to a large project. The Tranche 2 fund has been well received by local government and I Projects approved for funding am confident that it will be effective in addressing the DfT funding two key objectives of creating growth and cutting carbon. Local Authority LSTF Project Name 2012-15 (£m)

All projects were assessed against published criteria. North East Successful projects were those judged to perform well Middlesbrough Council Sustainable 1.210 against the twin objectives of supporting the local Middlesbrough - A economy and facilitating economic development, while Place for Business reducing carbon emissions. They also demonstrated North West Blackburn with Darwen BwD CONNECT 1.452 potential to deliver wider social and economic benefits, Borough Council * Project to improve safety, to bring about improvements to air St Helens Council Mid Mersey 3.120 quality, or to promote increased levels of physical activity. Sustainable Cross All large projects included a full economic appraisal Boundary Links based on the department’s WebTAG guidance. The Yorkshire and The Humber North Yorkshire County (1) Harrogate and 1.653 vast majority of funded large projects offer at least Council * Knaresborough high value for money, with several offering very high Sustainable Transport value for money. Package (2) Boosting the 3.661 Tourism Economy in Large Projects Whitby and the Esk Projects approved for funding Valley DfT funding East Midlands Local Authority LSTF Project Name 2012-15 (£m) Rutland County Council * Travel4Rutland 4.016 North East West Midlands Tyne and Wear ITA ** Addressing the barriers Up to 5.000 Stoke-on-Trent City Council Stoking Employment 4.961 that transport creates (combined with joint bid with in North Staffordshire to economic growth Staffordshire County Council) (a combination of and accessing “Stoking employment Employment” and “North Staffordshire North West Sustainable Transport Merseyside ITA * Supporting Sustainable 19.990 Package”) Access to Opportunity East of England in Merseyside Bedford Borough Council * Access to Stations 4.803 Transport for Greater Let’s Get to Work 32.460 Manchester * South East Yorkshire and The Humber East Sussex County Council * East Sussex Coastal 2.206 Towns – Better travel South Yorkshire ITA A Sustainable Journey 24.598 to Work & Education to Work East Sussex County Council * Travel Choices for 1.571 East Midlands Lewes Nottingham City Council * Nottingham Urban 10.320 Hampshire County Council * Sustainable Transport 3.810 Area LSTF Main Bid Solutions for England’s West Midlands two newest National Centro * Smart Network, 33.218 Parks Smarter Choices Royal Borough of Windsor and Sustainable Growth for 1.956 Telford and Wrekin Council * Telford Future – Local 6.100 Maidenhead * Maidenhead Action for Sustainable West Sussex County Council * West Sussex 2.346 Growth Sustainable Travel East of England Towns Hertfordshire County Council * Big Herts Big Ideas 9.679 South West South East Wiltshire Council Improving Wiltshire’s 4.250 Rail Offer Reading Borough Council * Targeting Travel 20.692 Choice Transitions Surrey County Council * Surrey Travel SMART 14.304 * Partial funding approved Transport for South Hampshire A Better Connected 17.839 South Hampshire: Supporting Growth, Reducing Carbon, Improving Health Projects refused funding South West Local Authority LSTF Project Name Bournemouth Borough Council South East Dorset 12.122 (South East Dorset) * Sustainable Travel East of England Package – “The 3 Towns Corridor” Norfolk County Council Connecting Norfolk to Growth Bristol City Council * West of England 24.035 South East Sustainable Transport West Berkshire Council “Connecting West Berkshire” – (WEST) keeping our economy and * Partial funding approved people moving ** Funding for a revised small project proposal from Tyne and South West Wear ITA, based on elements of their Large Project business Somerset County Council Two Moors Sustainable Visitor case, has also been retained, and will be awarded pending a Travel Project successful revised small project application.

WA 65 Written Answers[27 JUNE 2012] Written Answers WA 66 Written Answers Crime: Gun Grime Question Wednesday 27 June 2012 Asked by Lord Storey To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to review sentencing guidelines relating to gun crime to take account of (1) the type of firearm, Channel Tunnel and (2) gang membership. [HL974] Question Asked by Lord Bradshaw The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally): Sentencing guidelines are a matter for the To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans Sentencing Council for England and Wales, which is they have to enhance the regulatory oversight of independent of government. the charges levied on trains passing through the Channel Tunnel, as required in European legislation. [HL925] Extradition Question Asked by Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts Earl Attlee: Regulation of access charges through the Channel Tunnel is undertaken by the Channel To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the Tunnel Intergovernmental Commission (IGC) through cost of an unsuccessful extradition request made its joint-economic committee. The Government have under Part II of the Extradition Act 2003, including no current plans to change these arrangements. any costs incurred by (1) the Crown Prosecution The joint economic committee is investigating the Service, (2) the Legal Services Commission, (3) the charging regime in the tunnel to establish its level of Home Office, (4) HM Court Service and the consistency with European legislation. The report of Administration Court, (5) the police, (6) the Serious the first stage of the committee’s work was published Organised Crime Agency, and (7) the Prison in October 2011. A further report is planned to be Service. [HL987] published this autumn. The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): It is not at present possible to provide a complete or accurate estimate of costs incurred in individual extradition Climate Change cases, successful or otherwise. Question Asked by Lord Donoughue Finance: High-interest Loans Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much the Department of Energy and Climate Change has Asked by Lord Janner of Braunstone spent on climate change initiatives since May 2010. [HL876] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what measures they will take, if any, to increase protection for consumers with regard to super-high-interest loans, such as those provided by Wonga. [HL820] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Lord Marland): Most of the Department of Energy and Climate Change’s The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department expenditure contributes to some extent to mitigating for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): the impact of climate change. The department’s published TheGovernmentarecommittedbothtocurbingunsustainable annual accounts record which of DECC’s strategic lending and to strengthening consumer protections, objectives expenditure primarily relates to. This information particularly for the most vulnerable in society. Our can be found at the links below for 2009-10 and 2010-11. vision is to empower consumers to make better choices The 2011-12 accounts are currently being audited and for themselves so that they are free to borrow if that is will be published on DECC’s website shortly before what they decide is in their best interest, as well as to the Summer Parliamentary Recess. The 2011-12 information have in place a safe and fair regulatory framework for will be contained in note 2 to the accounts. credit. 2009-10 accounts: http://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/ That is why we have been working with the four Annual%20Reports%20Accounts%20and%20 Business% main trade associations to strengthen the payday lending 20Plans/2010/218-decc-resource-2009-10.pdf industry codes of practice to deliver real enhanced consumer protections and to provide greater transparency See note 3 on page 70. about how these loans work. We also anticipate that 2010/11 accounts: http://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/ the outcome of the OFT’s compliance review currently 11/about-us/goals-commitments/2212-decc-annual- in progress will require the industry to deliver further report-20102011.pdf. measures to address consumer detriment in this market. See note 2 on page 86. In addition, the Government are considering giving WA 67 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 68 the OFT new powers to suspend credit licences with for Transport on 1 June, excluding agencies and immediate effect and will provide an update on this non-departmental public bodies. [HL910] shortly. To inform future policy decisions, the Government Earl Attlee: To the best of my knowledge, on 1 June have commissioned research to gather robust evidence 2012 there were no apprentices employed within the on the impact of introducing a cap on the total cost of Department for Transport. credit that can be charged across a range of high cost credit products in the market. A report on this is expected this summer. Government Departments: Food Waste Question Food: Procurement Question Asked by Baroness Jones of Whitchurch Asked by Lord Harrison To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether, in To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress the light of the decision of both Houses of Parliament they are making on delivering sustainable food to sign up to the WRAP Hospitality and Food procurement in the public sector. [HL992] Service Voluntary Agreement to reduce food waste, the Department of Health will sign up to that The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department agreement; and whether they will encourage catering for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor contractors employed by the department to do the of Holbeach): The Government introduced a government same. [HL977] buying standard (GBS) for food and catering services on 16 June 2011, which came into force in September The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department 2011. More sustainable food sourcing, healthier food of Health (Earl Howe): The department has signed up choices, and resource efficiency and waste reduction in to the Waste and Resources Action Programme (WRAP) catering operations are all covered in this sustainable Hospitality and Food Service Voluntary Agreement to procurement standard. reduce food waste. The department is about to go out This standard is a credible and workable example to tender for a new contract and this will be a requirement of sustainable catering criteria that can deliver what of the new contract. many people look for from their public bodies. To help The department’s current catering suppliers are those that want to apply the standard, we have developed already committed to sustainable sourcing, which includes a sustainable food procurement training module aimed providing full traceability of products and suppliers at procurers in local authorities and other public bodies. within their supply chain to ensure that sustainability, However, rather than requiring every school, hospital ethical and safety standards are built into their and care home to provide food that meets this standard, requirements. we want to give them the discretion to innovate and adapt the suggested standard to their own circumstances. Each of these organisations will have a different set of Government Departments: Legal Payments requirements and the people concerned with them Question (parents, patients, governors) will have different priorities, making them best placed to decide how to achieve the Asked by Lord Laird objectives we are aiming for. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what payments Defra’s own catering provision is fully compliant were made by the Home Office to (1) Clifford Chance, with GBS and we have encouraged all departments to (2) Freshfields, (3) Slaughter and May,(4) Allen and report their own performance as part of their greening Overy, and (5) Linklaters, in (a) 2008–09, (b) 2009–10, government commitments. (c) 2010–11, and (d) 2011–12; and to what those Government Departments: Apprentices payments related. [HL915] Question The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): Asked by Lord Adonis The payments made by the Home Department to To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Clifford Chance, Freshfields, Slaughter and May, Allen apprentices (1) under the age of 21, and (2) over the and Ovary, and Linklaters, in the past four financial age of 21, were employed within the Department years and what they related to are as follows:

Payments in Payments in Payments in Payments in Company Name 2008-09 (£s) 2009-10 (£s) 2010-11 (£s) 2011-12 (£s) Services Provided

Clifford Chance Nil Nil Nil Nil

Freshfields Nil Nil Nil £ 89,677 Legal advice relating Bruckhaus Deringer to the closure of the Forensic Science Service WA 69 Written Answers[27 JUNE 2012] Written Answers WA 70

Payments in Payments in Payments in Payments in Company Name 2008-09 (£s) 2009-10 (£s) 2010-11 (£s) 2011-12 (£s) Services Provided

Clifford Chance Nil Nil Nil Nil Slaughter and May Nil Nil Nil £4,752 State aid advice to Forensic Science Service Allen and Overy Nil Nil Nil Nil Linklaters Nil Nil Nil £169,798 State aid advice to Forensic Science Service

Health Research Authority Health: Nurses and Health Care Assistants Question Question Asked by Baroness Emerton Asked by Lord Willis of Knaresborough To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their they have to ensure that the appointment of non- estimate of the number of (1) registered nurses, and executive directors to the Health Research Authority (2) health care assistants currently working in settings includes representation of health care professionals inspected by the Nursing and Midwifery Council other than doctors. [HL800] and the Care Quality Commission. [HL949]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe): The appointment of non-executive The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department directors to the Health Research Authority will be of Health (Earl Howe): As at 30 September 2011, the through open competition and assessment of all candidates Health and Social Care Information Centre annual against published criteria by a selection panel. This workforce census shows that there were 306,346 full-time will ensure that the process is fair, open and transparent equivalent qualified nursing, midwifery and health and appointments are made on merit. The Commissioner visiting staff and 44,787 full-time equivalent health forPublicAppointmentsregulatesandmonitorsappointments care assistants employed by the National Health Service. to public bodies to ensure procedures are fair. The All registered nurses will have completed a pre- criteria do not seek representation from any particular registration nursing education programme. These health care professional group. programmes take place in approved higher education institutions. Only students who have successfully Health: HIV completed an approved nursing or midwifery programme, Question and who have met the Nursing and Midwifery Council (NMC) requirements of good health and good character, Asked by Lord Judd can apply to join the register. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are their Registration is renewed every three years, and plans for financing National Health Service HIV registrants must be able to demonstrate that they meet treatment from the overseas development aid budget. NMC required standards for continuing professional [HL958] development and practice. In order to meet these standards, nurses must demonstrate that they have The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department undertaken 35 hours of learning activity relevant to of Health (Earl Howe): The department has no plans their practice and completed 450 hours of practice to finance National Health Service HIV treatment during the three years prior to the renewal of registration. from the overseas development aid budget. The Care Quality Commission has the power to inspect all NHS organisations. However, some of the Health: Nurses staff reported in the annual census will be employed in Question settings not covered by this power. Asked by Lord Willis of Knaresborough To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many foundation hospital trusts in England currently have Health: Obesity a registered nurse on their main board. [HL951] Question Asked by Baroness Jones of Whitchurch The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe): Under the National Health To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment Service Act 2006, every NHS foundation trust (NHSFT) they have made of the potential effects of advertising is required to have a registered nurse or registered on obesity levels among children; and whether midwife on the board. We are informed by the chairman consideration will be given to extending the ban on of Monitor (the statutory name of which is the Independent the advertising of food with high levels of fat, salt Regulator of NHS Foundation Trusts) that all NHSFTs and sugar to adult programmes watched by large are compliant with the legislation in this respect. numbers of children. [HL980] WA 71 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 72

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Data on self-harm requiring medical assistance are of Health (Earl Howe): Obesity is caused by many normally used for management information only and contributing factors. While the research shows that are not subject to the detailed checks that apply for advertising foods high in fat, salt, sugar can influence National Statistics publications. They are provisional children’s food choices, the magnitude of this effect and subject to change. and the degree to which it contributes to childhood The UK Border Agency’s standard specifications obesity is less well understood. The department will on the construction of holding rooms were not prepared continue to keep this area under review. with the intention for publication as they contain certain security considerations not suitable for the Immigration: Checkpoints public domain. Question A revised Detention Services Order on Rule 35 of the Detention Centre Rules 2001 is under development Asked by Lord Willoughby de Broke and will be published when ready. The existing Detention To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to Services Order (3/2008 Special Illnesses and Conditions) the Written Answer by Lord Henley on 11 June is available on the UK Border Agency website at: (WA 195), how many ministers have specific security http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/ protection allowing them to use priority channels at documents/policyandlaw/detention-services-orders/. UK Border Agency checkpoints. [HL982] The UK Border Agency will publish the revised asylum casework instruction on Rule 35 once the The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): responses to the consultation exercise on the revisions, We are unable to provide detailed information on the which closed on 18 May, have been considered. Until security arrangements for protected individuals, including then, the existing Rule 35 Asylum Instruction is available whether they use the priority channels at UK Border on the UK Border Agency website at: http://www.ukba. Agency checkpoints. To do so would compromise the homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/documents/ integrity of the security arrangements of the individuals policyandlaw/asylumprocessguidance/detention. concerned. There is at present no single manual or standardised material used for training medical practitioners or Immigration: Detention other healthcare staff in immigration removal centres Questions on the application of Rule 35. Case owners are trained to consider all material facts on a case by case basis. Asked by Lord Lester of Herne Hill The instructions available to assist case owner decision- To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to making are grouped under “Policy and Law” on the the Written Answers by Lord Henley on 11 June UK Border Agency website, including guidance on (WA 197), whether they will publish (1) figures for how to assess Rule 35 reports and the required actions. self-harm during immigration detention, (2) the Existing procedures and safeguards are being further UK Border Agency’s standard specifications on improved by a range of measures including: improved construction of holding room facilities for airport written instructions, with a revised Asylum Casework operators and advice on accommodation and security Instruction and Detention Services Order, and training requirements for holding rooms, (3) the written for medical practitioners and healthcare staff working instructions on the application of Rule 35 of the in immigration removal centres and case owners. After Detention Centre Rules 2001, (4) the revised asylum full implementation of these revised measures, the UK casework instruction on Rule 35 of the Detention Border Agency will review compliance, quality and Centre Rules 2001, (5) the detention services order performance through an internal audit. The results of on Rule 35 of the Detention Centre Rules 2001, (6) the audit, once carried out, will be published on the the manual and materials used for training medical UK Border Agency website. practitioners, other healthcare staff working in Asked by Lord Lester of Herne Hill immigration removal centres and case owners on Rule 35 of the Detention Centre Rules 2001, and To ask Her Majesty’s Government under what (7) the internal audit of compliance, quality and powers the conduct of enforced returns is contracted performance on Rule 35 decisions, once completed; out by the UK Border Agency. [HL857] and, if so, where they will be published. [HL836] To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they fulfil their investigative obligations under Articles 2 The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): and 3 of the European Convention on Human The UK Border Agency does not record centrally Rights in relation to services contracted out by the every incident of self-harm by detained persons, only UK Border Agency; and how they ensure that the those where some form of medical treatment was internal review mechanisms of the contractors used required. Figures for incidents of self-harm requiring by the UK Border Agency and their subcontractors medical assistance in each of the past three calendar fulfil the requirement of independent and impartial years are: investigation under Articles 2 and 3 of the 2009: 204; Convention. [HL858] 2010: 185; and 2011: 157. Lord Henley: Section 156 of the Immigration and To put this in context, 28,001 persons entered detention Asylum Act 1999 provides for the Secretary of State in 2009, 25,904 in 2010 and 27,072 in 2011. to make arrangements for, among other things, the delivery WA 73 Written Answers[27 JUNE 2012] Written Answers WA 74 of detained persons from their places of detention for regularly on its website. The total cost for part 1 of the the purpose of their removal from the UK in accordance Leveson inquiry from start-up in July 2011 is currently with removal directions and to enter into contracts for projected to be about £5.6 million. This is being jointly the provision of detainee custody officers for such a funded by the Department for Culture, Media and purpose. Section 154 of the 1999 Act requires persons Sport and the Home Office. working as detainee custody officers to be accredited by the Secretary of State, while Schedule 13 sets out the powers and duties of such officers when acting in NHS: Health and Wellbeing Boards accordance with escort arrangements. Private sector Question escorting companies also operate within a clear framework Asked by Baroness Scott of Needham Market set out in operating standards and instructions published on the UK Border Agency’s website at: http://www.ukba. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/documents/managing the Secretary of State for Education has had with ourborders/immigrationremovalcentres/. the Secretary of State for Health about the role In the unfortunate event of a death in immigration schools should play in Health and Wellbeing Boards. custody or while under escort, separate independent [HL709] investigations are carried out by the police, and the Prisons and Probation Ombudsman. There will also The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for be a coroner’s inquest (or, in Scotland, a procurator Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): There have been fiscal’s investigation). The combination of these discussions at ministerial and official level between the investigations meets the investigative obligation arising Department for Education and the Department for from Article 2 of the European Convention on Human Health about the health reforms in general. Rights. Schools understand the importance of good health The UK Border Agency operates a comprehensive to effective learning and the local health and wellbeing complaints system as part of its contract monitoring boards will be free to expand their membership to arrangements. All detainees are told how to complain include a wide range of perspectives and expertise, on arrival at a removal centre and upon escort, and including from schools. The local authority director of complaints forms are widely available in a range of children’s services will be a statutory member of the different languages. Complaints about the use of force board and is well placed to ensure the views and needs are referred to the UK Border Agency’s Professional of schools are fully represented in ways that best suit Standards Unit for investigation and are also referred local circumstances. automatically to the police for their own parallel investigation. The Professional Standards Unit uses a team of dedicated investigators, who are all professionally Olympic Games 2012 trained to police standards. Where detainees are not Question satisfied with the outcome of their complaints, they may refer the matter to the Prisons and Probation Asked by Lord Wigley Ombudsman and are told at the time how to do so. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they The UK Border Agency contract monitor will consider have sought or received any assurances from FIFA whether an allegation is such that it is appropriate to that the presence of any Welsh, Scottish or Northern suspend the certification of any officers involved in Irish soccer players in the Great Britain Olympic that incident pending its investigation. The management soccer team will not undermine the continued separate of the escorting service will also commission an internal participation of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland investigation. in competitions organised by FIFA. [HL770] Any allegation substantiated by the UK Border Agency will lead to some form of disciplinary action against the person(s) concerned. This ultimately includes Baroness Garden of Frognal: The Government have the revocation of an individual’s accreditation to work received a copy of FIFA’s letter to the national as a detainee custody officer. The individual may also associations, confirming that their team’s international face criminal charges if the police and Crown Prosecution status will not be affected by their players appearing Service (or, in Scotland, the procurator fiscal) decides for a Great Britain Olympic football team. there is evidence that an offence may have been committed. Overseas Territories Leveson Inquiry Question Question Asked by Lord Ashcroft Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon To ask Her Majesty’s Government what strains they To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the have identified on the relationships between the daily and forecast final cost of the Leveson inquiry; Government and the Overseas Territories. [HL815] and from what source the cost will be met. [HL747] The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Baroness Garden of Frognal: Daily running costs Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The Government for the Leveson inquiry are not kept. However, details have a vision for the populated territories as vibrant of the inquiry’s expenditure by quarter are published and flourishing communities, proudly retaining aspects WA 75 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 76 of their British identity and generating wider opportunities September this year. The changes in the Act were for their people. The Government will shortly issue a discussed at a recent meeting of the Criminal Records White Paper on this issue. Territories are very diverse Bureau’s sports and recreation consultative group, and face diverse challenges including cutting public which includes various representatives from that sector. sector deficits, ensuring integrity in public life, and Draft statutory guidance on supervision, which building more diverse and resilient economies in these includes some material relating to sport, was issued testing economic times. We take our responsibility for for public consultation on 6 June, and comments from the security and good governance of the territories the sports and recreation sector would be welcome. seriously, for example in the Turks and Caicos Islands, The Government are currently holding 11 road where we have supported a wide ranging reform shows around the country to present the changes to programme to address the issues raised by Sir Robin interested parties, and it is envisaged that a representative Auld’s 2009 commission of inquiry, which identified a of the sport and recreation sector will sit on the high probability of systemic corruption, and enable stakeholder advisory group related to these changes, restoration of a democratic government through elections which will be established soon. now announced for November 2012. We are aware that some territory politicians press for more action by the UK Government; others for less. But overall the Railways: Ticket Barriers relationship between the UK Government and the Question territories is strong and we are committed to strengthening engagement, including by UK departments in their Asked by Lord Bradshaw areas of competence and by encouraging partnerships between UK local authorities and the territories. The To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they forthcoming White Paper will detail the UK Government’s pay for the installation of gates at railway ticket strategy and priorities. barriers, either directly or by making allowance in franchise agreements with train operating companies. [HL721] Political Groups: Islamist Organisations Question Earl Attlee: The Government do not generally specify ticket barrier installation in franchise contracts. However, Asked by Lord Myners in circumstances where revenue support is provided as To ask Her Majesty’s Government what part of a franchise agreement and the franchisee’s bid consideration they have given to proscribing the includes for the installation of ticket barriers, we may organisation known as Hizb ut-Tahrir; and whether require that there is a commitment to install them by a ministers or officials have met representatives, members certain date. This approach has been taken in some or known supporters of the organisation during the franchises as a means to reduce the risk of government past two years. [HL965] exposure to revenue support payments.

The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): Roads: Closures We do not comment on which organisations may or Question may not be under consideration for proscription. Asked by Lord Hylton Hizb ut-Tahrir (HuT) is an organisation about which the Government have significant concerns and as such To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many there have been no official meetings between Home separate sections of public highway are at present Office Ministers and officials and their members or fully closed in (1) England, (2) Scotland, and (3) Wales. supporters during the past two years. [HL928]

Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 Earl Attlee: The Highways Agency is responsible for the strategic road network in England, which includes Questions motorways and some major A roads. The following Asked by Lord Addington web link provides information on current and future events on the strategic road network, as well as how to To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action obtain information with respect to significant scheduled they have taken to consult the sport and recreation closures: http://www.highways.gov.uk/traffic/7936.aspx. sector about the implementation of reforms of the While every effort is made to ensure that this vetting and barring framework as set out in the information is up-to-date, unscheduled works may Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. [HL911] need to be undertaken urgently and occasionally planned To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions works may need to be rescheduled at very short notice. have taken place between the Home Office and the In addition, Traffic England provides live traffic sport and recreation sector since the Protection of information covering England’s motorways and major Freedoms Act 2012 was passed. [HL912] A roads, available at: http://www.trafficengland.com/ index.aspx. The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): For local roads in England, the department does The Government plan to commence various aspects not hold information centrally on road closures as this of Part five of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 in is a matter for each individual local highway authority. WA 77 Written Answers[27 JUNE 2012] Written Answers WA 78

All road closures require a traffic regulation order to The supplementary information referred to is guidance be issued by the authority, except where there is a need on how to meet the requirements of the new school to close the road due to an emergency when there is an premises regulations. It will, for example, advise on immediate danger to the public, such as road subsidence how the new standard of toilet and washing facilities or due to dangerous buildings. can be satisfied. DirectGov does provide a search engine for users to Asked by Baroness Tonge search for information about road closures and diversions by individual local authority. This is available at the To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the following web link: http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/homeand Department for Education consulted the Department community/whereyoulive/streetsparkingcleaningand for Health over plans to reduce regulation of toilets lighting/dg_10028508. and washing facilities in schools, in the light of the Roadwork information for Wales and Scotland is a possible health implications. [HL867] matter for the respective devolved Administrations. In addition, there are commercial organisations which provide information on closures and roadworks around the country via websites combining data from Lord Hill of Oareford: Government departments, different sources, including the Highways Agency, including the Department of Health, were consulted Transport for London and many local highways prior to the start of formal consultation through the authorities. Cabinet’s Home Affairs Committee. While the new regulation on toilet and washing facilities will represent a reduction in length compared to the existing one, the only aspect which is likely to Roads: Traffic Signs have been removed is the setting out of a ratio of Question fittings to numbers of pupils. Unlike the existing regulation it is also likely to allow for the provision of unisex Asked by Baroness Thomas of Winchester toilets, provided specified requirements for privacy To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to and security are met. We do not believe that either of the Written Answer by Earl Attlee on 19 June these changes will have any health implications. (WA 290), whether they will clarify the guidance on Asked by Baroness Tonge signage about parking for blue badge holders in red route parking bays to ensure that signs state clearly To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to that blue badge holders are only entitled to park for the Written Answer by Lord Hill of Oareford on up to three hours between the hours of 10am and 23 April (WA 371), how the new school premises 4pm. [HL983] regulations will define what constitutes a suitable standard for toilet and washing facilities, so that schools are able to determine whether they meet Earl Attlee: Section 10 of Chapter 3 of the Traffic requirements. [HL868] Signs Manual details upright signs for disabled badge holder parking in red route bays. The guidance shows an example sign (Figure 10-9) that illustrates provision for disabled badge holders to park in a red route bay Lord Hill of Oareford: The new school premises for up to three hours during the times of 10 am and 4 regulations will require that schools provide toilets pm. The length of time parking is permitted and times and washing facilities for the sole use of pupils and of operation signed may vary to reflect the provisions that they are suitable, having regard to their ages, of the underlying traffic regulation order. I am not numbers, sex and any special requirements they may aware of any concerns that this guidance is unclear. have. They will also require that separate toilet facilities are provided for boys and girls aged eight years or over, except where the facility is provided in a room that is intended for use by one pupil at a time and that Schools: Toilets and Washing Facilities can be secured from the inside. Questions As stated in my previous answer, we believe that the Asked by Baroness Tonge new school premises regulations will be much clearer than the present ones and that schools will find it Toask Her Majesty’s Government when the revised much easier to assess whether their toilet and washing school premises regulations will be published; and facilities meet requirements. whether the supplementary information accompanying Asked by Baroness Tonge the regulations will clarify what constitutes a suitable standard for toilets and washing facilities. [HL866] To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the Written Answer by Lord Hill of Oareford on 23 April (WA 372), how their proposed standards The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for for school toilets and washing facilities will be Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): A date has not yet modified in the light of concerns raised during been fixed for publishing the revised school premises the consultation regarding the consequences for regulations. children’s health. [HL870] WA 79 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 80

Lord Hill of Oareford: Most of the concerns raised will benefit from the Government’s strategy for tourism during the consultation about the possible consequences which was published by the Department for Culture, for children’s health related to how school toilets and Media and Sport in March 2011. washing facilities would be looked after and maintained. We do not believe that regulation can cover all eventualities and do not intend to expand the regulation on toilet Visas and washing facilities to include further details of Question what must be provided in them. Asked by Lord Laird There will be other safeguards within the new school premises regulations affecting toilet and washing facilities To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many provision. They will include a general requirement (1) visa applications to enter the United Kingdom, that school facilities are maintained to a standard that and (2) applications for permanent residency, were will, so far as is reasonably practicable, ensure the made last year by Algerian and Nigerian nationals; health, safety and welfare of pupils. They will also and how many, and what percentage, were require that washing facilities have an adequate supply refused. [HL889] of hot and cold water. The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): In 2011, a total of 15,241 applications for entry clearance Taxation: VAT visas were made by Algerian nationals. Of the 15,448 Question decisions made in 2011 on such applications, there Asked by Lord Wigley were 3,813 (25%) refusals. Correspondingly in 2011 Nigerian nationals made 191,261 applications for entry To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions clearance visas, and of the 188,993 decisions, there they have had with the Scottish Government about were 50,368 (27%) refusals. the possibility of a lower level of value added In 2010 there were, respectively, 1,527 and 10,031 tax being applied to the tourism industry in grants of settlement, for Algerian and Nigerian nationals. Scotland. [HL769] Data for 2011 will be published in August. Figures on applications for settlement are not published. The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace Data relating to entry clearance visa applications of Tankerness): Under EU VAT law, it is not possible by country of nationality are published in table “be.02” to apply VAT relief on a regional basis. Any reliefs for of the quarterly Home Office statistical release tourism would have to be applied UK-wide and would “Immigration Statistics”. involve a cost of at least £9 billion a year. However, the A copy of the latest release, Immigration Statistics noble Lord will be aware that we have announced, January-March 2012, is available from the Library of subject to consultation, a reduced rate for cable the House and from the Home Office Science, research transportation. This relief will apply to the ski lifts and statistics web pages at: http://www.homeoffice.gov. operated by Scottish resorts. uk/publications/science-research-statistics/research- In addition to the Scottish Government’s work in statistics/immigration-asylum-research/immigration- support of the Scottish tourism industry, the industry q1-2012/. Wednesday 27 June 2012

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Col. No. Col. No. Credit Unions ...... 9 Insolvency Service: Performance Targets ...... 13

Security Industry Authority: Annual Report ...... 15 EU: Agriculture and Fisheries Council...... 9 Taxation: Employee Share Schemes...... 15 EU: Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer Affairs Council ...... 12 Terrorism Act 2000 and Part 1 of the Terrorism Act 2006: Annual Report ...... 16 Fraud Act 2006...... 13 Transport: Sustainable Transport ...... 16

Wednesday 27 June 2012

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. Channel Tunnel...... 65 Immigration: Checkpoints...... 71

Climate Change ...... 65 Immigration: Detention...... 71

Crime: Gun Grime...... 66 Leveson Inquiry...... 73

Extradition ...... 66 NHS: Health and Wellbeing Boards ...... 74

Finance: High-interest Loans ...... 66 Olympic Games 2012...... 74

Food: Procurement ...... 67 Overseas Territories ...... 74

Government Departments: Apprentices ...... 67 Political Groups: Islamist Organisations...... 75

Government Departments: Food Waste...... 68 Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 ...... 75

Government Departments: Legal Payments ...... 68 Railways: Ticket Barriers ...... 76

Health: HIV...... 69 Roads: Closures ...... 76

Health: Nurses...... 69 Roads: Traffic Signs...... 77

Health: Nurses and Health Care Assistants...... 70 Schools: Toilets and Washing Facilities...... 77

Health: Obesity...... 70 Taxation: VAT ...... 79

Health Research Authority ...... 69 Visas ...... 80 NUMERICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. [HL709] ...... 74 [HL820] ...... 66

[HL721] ...... 76 [HL836] ...... 71

[HL747] ...... 73 [HL857] ...... 72

[HL769] ...... 79 [HL858] ...... 72

[HL770] ...... 74 [HL866] ...... 77

[HL800] ...... 69 [HL867] ...... 78

[HL815] ...... 74 [HL868] ...... 78 Col. No. Col. No. [HL870] ...... 78 [HL951] ...... 69

[HL876] ...... 65 [HL958] ...... 69

[HL889] ...... 80 [HL965] ...... 75

[HL910] ...... 68 [HL974] ...... 66

[HL911] ...... 75 [HL977] ...... 68

[HL912] ...... 75 [HL980] ...... 70

[HL915] ...... 68 [HL982] ...... 71

[HL925] ...... 65 [HL983] ...... 77

[HL928] ...... 76 [HL987] ...... 66

[HL949] ...... 70 [HL992] ...... 67 Volume 738 Wednesday No. 23 27 June 2012

CONTENTS

Wednesday 27 June 2012 Questions Young People: Parenthood ...... 223 Poverty: Developing Countries...... 225 Armed Forces: Discrimination ...... 228 Care Homes ...... 230 British Waterways Board (Transfer of Functions) Order 2012 Inland Waterways Advisory Council (Abolition) Order 2012 Motions to Approve...... 232 Justice and Security Bill [HL] Order of Consideration Motion ...... 233 European Union (Approval of Treaty Amendment Decision) Bill [HL] Report...... 233 House of Lords Reform Bill Statement...... 235 Crime and Courts Bill [HL] Committee (4th Day)...... 252 Regeneration Question for Short Debate ...... 294 Grand Committee Civil Aviation Bill Committee (1st Day)...... GC 125 Written Statements ...... WS 9 Written Answers...... WA 6 5