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Ms Ramla 40 D E Swanepoel 1758 MS RAMLA 40 D E SWANEPOEL Thank you [indistinct]. MS RAMLA: Okay, perfect. Thank you. MR AMOJEE: Bye. COURT: Thank you [indistinct] proceed. Thank you. MS RAMLA: Thank you M'Lord. Mr Swanepoel describe to the Court your preferred method of interrogation. We will return to that shortly. MR SWANEPOEL: Thank you. MS RAMLA: Can you briefly describe to this Court the 10 positions that you held as Branch Commander of the various security branches. What were your duties? MR SWANEPOEL: To manage the personnel. To transport the personnel also to coordinate the information that has been collected by different members, different personnel members. The update of files of the detainees. Also to channelize the information to the intelligence that [indistinct] head office. MS RAMLA: [Indistinct] to the security branch at John Vorster Square for a few months. From around December 1981 and in relation to the Barbara Hogan inquiry. Do you confirm that? 20 MR SWANEPOEL: [Indistinct] that M'Lord. MS RAMLA: Now this happened approximately, about 39 years ago. COURT: Sorry Adv Ramla we seem to having that noise again. I cannot hear. You seem to be having that noise. I am not sure about other people. It is a disturb forever now. It is INQ445/2019_2021.02.09-BDP 1759 MS RAMLA 41 D E SWANEPOEL disturbing thing. MS RAMLA: [Indistinct]. COURT: Can you try again and do what you did last time? So that it is just bad. MS RAMLA: [Indistinct], alright M'Lord. Can I just have five minutes? Let me see if maybe I can sort something out. I changed the earphones to [indistinct]. COURT: Okay. MS RAMLA: Thank you M'Lord. 10 MR AMAJEE: Asika. MS RAMLA: Yes. MR AMAJEE: Can you try and go into your computer settings where you have the sound settings on your computer and just reduce your microphone sensitivity a little bit. Your mic sensitivity may be a little bit too high. Should be in settings and then microphone. MS RAMLA: Okay let me see if I can see that. MS RAMLA: Mr Varney is that any better? MR VARNEY: [Indistinct]. Just talk a bit more Adv Ramla. 20 MS RAMLA: I have tried to change the settings. There was not much I could do but does this help a little bit? MR VARNEY: I think it is helping. [Indistinct]. COURT: On my side [indistinct]. MR AMAJEE: As well as my side. Can I just ask the witness if he can clearly. The witness says that he has [indistinct]. INQ445/2019_2021.02.09-BDP 1760 MS RAMLA 42 D E SWANEPOEL COURT: Thank you very much. Now we can proceed now Miss Ramla. MS RAMLA: Thank you M'Lord. MR AMAJEE: Adv Ramla you please just maybe on your [indistinct] turned off. Thank you. MR VARNEY: Video? MR AMAJEE: Dit is reg. Sy sal dit aansit. MS RAMLA: Now Mr Swanepoel this incident occurred 39 years ago. What if any, is your independent recollection of 10 your time at John Vorster Square? MR SWANEPOEL: I cannot have an independent recollection. But I am making use of the notes of the 1982 inquest that I have with me. COURT: The Court record? MS RAMLA: Now do you confirm that at that time you held the rank of [indistinct]. MR SWANEPOEL: That is correct. MS RAMLA: How did you become involved in that investigation? 20 MR SWANEPOEL: During December 1981. MS RAMLA: Yes how did you become involved? MR SWANEPOEL: I received instruction from my commander. To report to Major Kunad at Johannesburg to help with the investigation that was ongoing there. MS RAMLA: Were you provided with any specific reason as to INQ445/2019_2021.02.09-BDP 1761 MS RAMLA 43 D E SWANEPOEL why you were nominated? MR SWANEPOEL: The interrogations were made and they needed help at Johannesburg. MS RAMLA: But was there any specific reason as to why you personally were nominated from Benoni to [indistinct]. MR SWANEPOEL: As far as I can remember, there was no reason. MS RAMLA: Were you briefed on your first day at John Vorster Square by Major Kunad? 10 MR SWANEPOEL: Although I cannot remember the specific, we were asked that we please help with the interrogations of the detainees. MS RAMLA: Did he specifically say anything about the Hogan investigation? MR SWANEPOEL: The investigation was contained the activities of the Trade Unions which led to the labour unrest. The labour unrest which was also… The labour unrest which [indistinct] the economy of the country. The [indistinct] of the economy of the country. Specific in the Pretoria area, the 20 Witwatersrand and the Vaal Triangle. MS RAMLA: Now Mr Swanepoel at that point in time, what knowledge did you personally have with regard to labour activities, union activities? MR AMAJEE: M'Lord may we just stand down for one minute, one mute? INQ445/2019_2021.02.09-BDP 1762 MS RAMLA 44 D E SWANEPOEL COURT: [Indistinct]. MR AMAJEE: Adv Ramla please. Answer then the question please. MS RAMLA: What types of knowledge did you have at that time with regard to trade unions and labour activities? MR SWANEPOEL: At the time when I was stationed at Benoni I investigated the trade unions activities and the unrest that was going on there. So I gathered information that led to the unrest of the trade unions. 10 MS RAMLA: You indicated that Major Kunad told you that he will assist with the interrogations. Did he provide any particular detail as to how they should be conducted? MR SWANEPOEL: No. He only said that he does not want to have assaults. There should not be any assaults. MS RAMLA: Was there any specific… sorry. Was there any specific reason that he mentioned that he did not want any assaults? MR SWANEPOEL: I cannot remember. MS RAMLA: Did he tell you how the interrogations will be 20 conducted? Whether they will be in teams or individually. MR SWANEPOEL: As far as I can remember we would be two in the interrogation… during the interrogation. MS RAMLA: During your briefing with Major Kunad. Did you detect any urgency on his [indistinct] to finalise the investigation? INQ445/2019_2021.02.09-BDP 1763 MS RAMLA 45 D E SWANEPOEL MR SWANEPOEL: I cannot remember then, but any investigation is regarded as being urgent. MS RAMLA: Was this your first time to meet Major Kunad? MR SWANEPOEL: Yes. MS RAMLA: What was your impression of him? MR SWANEPOEL: That he was straight officer… Strong. (correction by witness) He was strict. MS RAMLA: Yes? MR SWANEPOEL: Further that people should do what them 10 not to do [sic]. They should do what he told them what to do. MS RAMLA: Would it be correct to say that he expected results from the investigation? MR SWANEPOEL: Yes I would say so. MS RAMLA: Did he provide you with any specific instructions on how to obtain these results that he wanted? MR SWANEPOEL: No, It is that I can remember [indistinct]. MS RAMLA: Were you required to be [indistinct] the problem of the investigation to him? MR SWANEPOEL: It was expected of the senior officers to 20 report to Major Kunad. MS RAMLA: Now Mr Swanepoel you came from outside [indistinct]. How would you describe your relationship with the permanent security officer at John Vorster Square? MR SWANEPOEL: We were colleagues and we had to support each other. It was clear to me that during that time it was the INQ445/2019_2021.02.09-BDP 1764 MS RAMLA 46 D E SWANEPOEL culture of the security branch officers. That you have to know what they wanted… They tell you what you need to know. MS RAMLA: When you say that they would tell you what you need to know. Would this be in relation to the interrogations that you were specifically conducted? MR SWANEPOEL: It was in general. In all situations. MS RAMLA: So [indistinct] sorry. You were saying something Mr Swanepoel. MR SWANEPOEL: I just wanted to say that it included the 10 investigation at Johannesburg. MS RAMLA: How would you describe a typical day as [indistinct] John Vorster Square in that period? INTERPRETER: How would you describe that? MS RAMLA: A typical day of work in that period? MR SWANEPOEL: Report in the morning, to report for duty in the morning, from 6 o’clock in the morning. That your detainee be brought in from the cells. Then you would start the interrogation. Then at about half four or 5 o’clock then the interrogation would end. 20 MS RAMLA: So your interrogations were then conducted within working hours? MR SWANEPOEL: That is correct. MS RAMLA: [Indistinct] deal with the interrogation of Dr Aggett at a later stage that took place on a weekend. Do you confirm that? INQ445/2019_2021.02.09-BDP 1765 MS RAMLA 47 D E SWANEPOEL MR SWANEPOEL: Yes I remember it. It was on a Saturday. MS RAMLA: For the purpose of interrogations were you assigned as lead interrogator? MR SWANEPOEL: If [indistinct] interrogations that that two members would be involved. Then during the interrogation it will be clear as to who is the stronger interrogator there. Then automatically that one will be regarded as the lead interrogator. MS RAMLA: So Major Kunad did not decide who is the lead 10 [indistinct] interrogator? MR SWANEPOEL: No. MS RAMLA: Mr Swanepoel can you recall the officers that you were teamed with in that period? MR SWANEPOEL: I cannot remember. MS RAMLA: Do you recall [indistinct] Lieutenant Venter? MR SWANEPOEL: According to the statement that was given to us I did pick up that Lieutenant Venter and I did interrogate Ismail Momoniat.
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