PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE NO. 7 - PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT Tuesday, 2 March 2021 Examination of proposed expenditure for the portfolio area ENERGY AND ENVIRONMENT UNCORRECTED The Committee met at 09:30 MEMBERS Ms Cate Faehrmann (Chair) PRESENT Ms Abigail Boyd The Hon. Mark Buttigieg The Hon. Catherine Cusack Mr Justin Field The Hon. Ben Franklin The Hon. Shayne Mallard The Hon. Mark Pearson (Deputy Chair) The Hon. Adam Searle The Hon. Penny Sharpe Mr David Shoebridge The Hon. Matt Kean, Minister for Energy and Environment CORRECTIONS TO TRANSCRIPT OF COMMITTEE PROCEEDINGS Corrections should be marked on a photocopy of the proof and forwarded to: Budget Estimates secretariat Room 812 Parliament House Macquarie Street SYDNEY NSW 2000 Tuesday, 2 March 2021 Legislative Council Page 1 The CHAIR: Welcome to the budget estimates 2020-21 initial hearings. Before I commence, I acknowledge the Gadigal people, who are the traditional custodians of this land. I pay respect to the Elders past, present and emerging of the Eora nation and extend that respect to other First Nations peoples present. I welcome Minister Kean and accompanying officials to this hearing. Today the Committee will examine the proposed expenditure for the portfolios of Energy and Environment. Today's hearing is open to the public and is being broadcast live via the Parliament's website. In accordance with the broadcasting guidelines, while members or the media may film or record Committee members and witnesses, people in the public gallery should not be the primary focus of any filming or photography. I also remind media representatives that you must take responsibility for what you publish about the Committee's proceedings. The guidelines for the broadcast of proceedings are available from the secretariat. All witnesses in budget estimates hearings have a right to procedural fairness according to the procedural fairness resolution adopted by the House in 2018. There may be some questions that a witness could only answer if they had more time or with certain documents to hand. In these circumstances witnesses are advised that they can take a question on notice and provide an answer within 21 days. Minister Kean, I remind you and the officers accompanying you that you are free to pass notes and refer directly to your advisers seated at the table behind you. Any messages from advisers or members' staff seated in the public gallery should be delivered through the Committee secretariat. We expect the transcript of this hearing to be available on the web from tomorrow morning. Finally, could everyone please turn their mobile phones to silent for the duration of the hearing. Minister Kean, I remind you that you do not need to be sworn as you have already sworn an oath to your office as a member of Parliament. PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE NO. 7 - PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT UNCORRECTED Tuesday, 2 March 2021 Legislative Council Page 2 JIM BETTS, Secretary, Department of Planning, Industry and Environment, affirmed and examined TRACY MACKEY, Chief Executive Officer, NSW Environment Protection Authority, affirmed and examined JAMES HAY, Deputy Secretary, Energy, Climate Change and Sustainability, Department of Planning, Industry and Environment, sworn and examined SHARON MOLLOY, Acting Deputy Secretary, Biodiversity, Conservation and Science, Department of Planning, Industry and Environment, affirmed and examined ANDREW LEWIS, Executive Director, Energy, Department of Planning, Industry and Environment, affirmed and examined PAUL GRIMES, Coordinator-General, Environment, Energy and Science, Department of Planning, Industry and Environment, affirmed and examined ATTICUS FLEMING, Deputy Secretary, National Parks and Wildlife Service, Department of Planning, Industry and Environment, affirmed and examined JOHN CLELAND, Chief Executive Officer, Essential Energy, affirmed and examined KATE WILSON, Executive Director, Climate Change and Sustainability, Department of Planning, Industry and Environment, affirmed and examined PAUL ELTON, Chief Executive Officer, Biodiversity Conservation Trust, Department of Planning, Industry and Environment, affirmed and examined, MICHELLE DUMAZEL, Executive Director, Biodiversity and Conservation Division, Department of Planning, Industry and Environment, sworn and examined NAOMI STEPHENS, Acting Executive Director, Park Operations, National Parks and Wildlife Service, Department of Planning, Industry and Environment, affirmed and examined ROBERT QUIRK, Executive Director, Park Programs, National Parks and Wildlife Service, Department of Planning, Industry and Environment, affirmed and examined STEPHEN BEAMAN, Executive Director, Regulatory Operations Metro, NSW Environment Protection Authority, sworn and examined CARMEN DWYER, Executive Director, Regulatory Operations Regional, NSW Environment Protection Authority, sworn and examined GEORGINA KELLY, Executive Director, Science, Economics and Insights, Department of Planning, Industry and Environment, sworn and examined ANDREW NICHOLLS, Executive Director, Business Delivery, National Parks and Wildlife Service, Department of Planning, Industry and Environment, sworn and examined BRENDAN BRUCE, Executive Director, Office of the Coordinator-General, Environment, Energy and Science, Department of Planning, Industry and Environment, affirmed and examined DAVID FOWLER, Executive Director, Regulatory Practice and Environmental Solutions, NSW Environment Protection Authority, affirmed and examined NANCY CHANG, Executive Director, Regulatory Policy Initiatives and Advice, NSW Environment Protection Authority, affirmed and examined RAYNE DE GRUCHY, Chairperson, NSW Environment Protection Authority, affirmed and examined The CHAIR: Today's hearing will be conducted from 9.30 a.m. to 12.30 p.m. or 12.40 p.m.; however, we have agreed to have a 10-minute break at 11.00 a.m. and a 10-minute break at 3.30 p.m. and go for another 10 minutes, probably into the Government's question time. We will have questions as usual from Opposition and crossbench members only, and of course an additional 15 minutes is allocated at the end of each session if Government members wish to ask questions. As there is no provision for any witness to make an opening statement before the Committee commences questioning, we will begin with questioning from the Opposition. The Hon. PENNY SHARPE: Good morning, Minister. Thanks everyone for coming. PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE NO. 7 - PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT UNCORRECTED Tuesday, 2 March 2021 Legislative Council Page 3 Mr MATT KEAN: Good morning, Ms Sharpe. The Hon. PENNY SHARPE: On 26 July 2020 you announced your goal to double the population of koalas by 2050 and you stated that you want at least another 20,000 koalas by then. Given the recent bushfires and obviously what we know about koalas, which is that 90 per cent of their populations are in decline and there is speculation there could be fewer than 20,000 left in New South Wales, what is the science behind the ability to double that by another 20,000? Mr MATT KEAN: I have assembled an expert panel of some of the country's leading scientists, people like Professor Kathy Belov for example, to advise me on a plan to achieve that objective. That work is currently underway. I have had a briefing on where they are at but the science will look at a number of things, which include how to treat disease, how to protect from vehicle and dog attacks, how to do translocations. It will also look at things, the most important factor being the protection of habitat, both on private land and also obviously on public land. The Hon. PENNY SHARPE: Minister, where did you get the 20,000 figure from? Mr MATT KEAN: The 20,000 figure was the number that was included in the parliamentary inquiry report. The Hon. PENNY SHARPE: You have just said we are going to double it by another 20,000, is that correct? Mr MATT KEAN: Effectively what I said was we need to double the koala population. I know there is a lot of conjecture about how many koalas there are in the wild at the moment. Obviously we need to baseline the number of koalas in the wild. I went off the report done by the parliamentary inquiry and it cited a number of 20,000. I thought that would be an appropriate figure to benchmark against. But notwithstanding that, we need to do some work to baseline how many koalas there are in the population. The Hon. PENNY SHARPE: Minister, when you made the announcement you had already started to put the team together, had you not? Mr MATT KEAN: I do not recall the specific dates but it is quite possible. We had a number of experts who had been advising the department. They had already done a lot of work on developing the initial NSW Koala Strategy and the Government was looking to update the strategy. But following the parliamentary inquiry I thought we need more than just a koala strategy, we need a plan to double the koala population, so I basically redirected the terms of reference. The Hon. PENNY SHARPE: They had been looking at the issue of whether doubling the population was possible before you made your announcement, had they not? Mr MATT KEAN: I am not sure they were specifically looking at doubling the koala population, but I am very happy for Ms Dumazel-— Dr GRIMES: Ms Dumazel might be able to provide us with a little more assistance on that. The Hon. PENNY SHARPE: I will come back to that. That is fine, thank you. Mr MATT KEAN: I was not specifically aware of a work plan to double the koala population. That was something that I thought would be an appropriate objective following the parliamentary inquiry. The Hon. PENNY SHARPE: Minister, there are documents that basically suggest that the idea of putting a number on doubling the population was something that you were warned against. Why did you go ahead with that? Mr MATT KEAN: As you know with these things, it is important to set targets. If you do not have a target, you cannot focus everyone's energies on achieving it, whether it be koalas or climate change. I think that we should be setting targets to make sure everyone is pushing in the same direction.