February 2014 Institute special report

Shaping U.S.- Brazil Relationship after the snowden affair

A conversation with Ambassador Thomas A. Shannon

Introduction

Paulo Sotero

or the past fourteen years, United States Career Ambassador Thomas A. Shannon has been directly involved in the U.S. government dialogue with Brazil,F including as Special Assistant to the President, Assistant Secretary for Western Hemisphere Affairs and, most recently, as President Barack Obama’s Ambassador to Brazil. In this latest capacity, he helped reshape the bilateral relationship, building high level dialogue mechanisms, focusing on common domestic priorities and increasingly shared global understandings, promoting commerce, investment, tourism, and facilitating engagement between our civil societies. In the closing months of his tenure, he also dealt with the fallout from the Edward Snowden allegations of surveillance, including the postponement of President ’s State Visit to Washington, D.C. planned for October 2013.

Recently returned to Washington, D.C. Ambassador Shannon remains engaged in U.S.-Brazil relations. On December 24, 2013 he was appointed Counselor of the Department of State after serving briefly as Senior Advisor to Secretary John Kerry. He continues to be a strong advocate of a deeper and broader dialogue between the two governments. “We are appreciative of Brazil Institute special report the way in which the Brazilian government conversation at my level, or Susan’s, that has handled the most recent communication will lead to a better [bilateral] relationship,” from Edward Snowden to the Brazilian Figueiredo said. people and his effort to solicit some kind As the two governments look for ways of asylum from Brazil,” Shannon said on of reestablishing a productive dialogue, efforts December 19th, speaking on the outlook initiated by Brasilia to address the broader of the bilateral relations in the wake of the implications of the Snowden revelations postponed state visit by President Rousseff. have brought the U.S. and Brazil closer. In “The response of the Brazilian government is December, the U.S. supported a non-binding noted and welcomed by the United States,” resolution on internet privacy proposed by he added. “As we look ahead, it is evident Brazil and Germany at the United Nations that what the Snowden disclosures have General Assembly. The resolution was done, aside from creating a level of pause at unanimously adopted after its proponents one part of our relationship, has largely not negotiated changes in the text to ensure affected this broader people-to-people and support by the U.S. and other countries. In society-to-society engagement.” a significant parallel move, in January the Shannon recognized the “seriousness” Brazilian government invited the U.S. to join of the Snowden disclosures and its adverse the steering committee of a global conference impact on the bilateral relationship, especially on internet governance called by President – he stressed – “on Brazil’s understanding of Rousseff in the aftermath of the Snowden that relationship.” He acknowledged that revelations. The conference, to take place the two governments will have to address in , in April 2014, is viewed in the problem of trust created by the episode. Washington as an opportunity to re-engage Efforts in that regard are under way. On with Brazil on a matter of bilateral and global January 30, responding to an invitation relevance. by the White House, Brazilian Foreign “I believe that ultimately we are in a Minister Luís Alberto Figueiredo travelled position with the , because of this to Washington to be briefed by National [the Snowden disclosures], to rethink our Security Adviser Susan Rice on the results intelligence liaison relationships, because of the review of U.S. intelligence activities that is something Brazil does very poorly President Obama announced on January right now,” Shannon said. “This is largely 17th. Speaking to reporters, Figueiredo said because of their internal history and because the meeting with Rice has not exhausted of the relative smallness of its intelligence “the process of clarification.” He suggested, services. It is important to recognize that however, that only presidents Rousseff and Brazil does not have an intelligence service Obama can resolve the difficulties created that matches its global ambitions, and that in by the intelligence disclosures. “It is not a order to do that it really needs to build liaison 2 Brazil Institute special report

relationships with global intelligence services own immediate concerns caused by Snowden that are capable of helping it do the kinds of to build out that partnership.” things and provide the kinds of services to its Opening the event, Director, President own government that ultimately it is going to and CEO of the Wilson Center, Jane need.” Harman, applauded efforts by Washington The diplomat suggested that Brazil and Brasilia to move past the Snowden affair. is in a privileged position to deal with this “ I know a little bit about surveillance issues issue. “[The country] largely does not have and I strongly disagree with what Edward external enemies, it does have adversaries, it Snowden did, nonetheless I welcome the does have people that are very interested in public debate on surveillance,” said Harman, what is happening inside Brazil,” Shannon who served in the House Intelligence noted. Brazil, he continued, “is the subject Committee during her nine term tenure and the object of cyber-assault every day, and as a representative from California. ”As Brazilians know this. And so they are looking the two largest economies and two largest for ways to build a capacity as they build out democracies of the Americas, the interests of their economy. It is our hope that they will the U.S. and Brazil are more convergent than recognize that they have a useful partner in divergent in the realms of business, defense, us, and that they need to see beyond their science, education, and culture,” she added. 3 Brazil Institute special report

“As Tom Shannon likes to say, the challenge led to the invitation by the White House for the U.S. and Brazilian governments is to to President Rousseff for what would have catch up and align their policies to this reality. been the first state visit to Washington by And that is why Tom Shannon is here today, a Brazilian president in more than 18 years. to help us understand the landscape in this, “All of you are aware of the unfortunate hopefully, post-Snowden era.” developments that led the two presidents Former U.S. Ambassador to Brazil to announce a postponement of the visit.” and Chair of the Brazil Institute Advisory Harrington expressed his hope that “the Board, Anthony S. Harrington, introduced review of the National Security Agency Shannon to the packed audience. “As intelligence programs ordered by President ambassador to Brasilia, Tom was the Obama will resolve questions raised in architect of rapprochement between the U.S. Brazil that are recognized as legitimate in and Brazil after a period of some malaise Washington, despite the unfortunate way in in the relationship,” he said, referring to which they emerged.” disagreements on the Honduras constitutional “Having tended and paid attention crisis and Iran nuclear policy in 2009 and 2010. to the relationship since I was ambassador, “In March 2011, less than three months after I believe the reasons that led President President Rousseff ’s inauguration as the first Obama to make the invitation and President woman , President Obama Rousseff to accept remain entirely valid and made an unprecedented early visit to Brasilia. current. Further and deeper engagement In his address to a very large congregation, is in the interest of governments, their President Obama observed that it was high respective civil societies, and the business time that Brazil and the U.S. enjoy a level sector, whose interest and policy objectives of engagement on par with that the U.S. in both countries are remarkably the same,” maintains with China and India, for example,” concluded Harrington. As director of the recalled Harrington. “The presidential visit Brazil Institute, I moderated the event and helped reset the relationship. President edited this report, with the assistance of Rousseff ’s openness and engagement with Michael Darden, Brazil Institute Program President Obama was clearly an important Assistant, and Anna Carolina Cardenas, the and constructive step that was followed by Institute’s intern. President Rousseff ’s visit here in April of last year. Interestingly, she set the theme for her visit at the Brazil-U.S. Strategic Partnerships for the . Hence, agendas were set at the presidential level.” Harrington credited Shannon for the high level outreach and engagement that 4 Brazil Institute special report

Ambassador Thomas A. Shannon: social exclusion, built a functioning democracy, and created one of the largest economies in spent nearly four years in Brazil, having left the world. I explained that this economy in September to come back to Washington was building a large consumer base middle Ito work with Secretary Kerry on broader class that was globalizing as it developed, and issue – I am being globalized. However, my that Brazil’s emergence into the world and its interest in Brazil has not waned – quite to assertion of global ambition was putting Brazil the contrary. As Brazil inserts itself even in contact with the United States and parts of deeper into the world, it will not let me go, the world where historically Brazil had not and so, I will continue to have a profound been present before. This new engagement interest in the U.S.- with Brazil, Brazil relationship, Brazil’s transformation has shown whether it be in the Middle East, and especially in the that democracy and markets can strategic side of that whether it be in relationship as both deliver development and are not about Africa, whether Brazil and the United it be in Asia, or status quo or protecting privileges States look for ways to more broadly in share understandings the Americas, of the world and to such as in the chart cooperative paths that I believe will Caribbean and Central America, meant that benefit both of our countries. Nearly four the United States had to understand Brazil years ago in January of 2010, I was kindly in a different light and that Brazil also had invited by the Brazil Institute to speak here to rethink its relationship with the United before I went off to Brazil as Ambassador. In States as we look for a way to accommodate that instance, I made a few assertions: the first this new global interest. was that although Brazil had been described Finally, I noted that while Brazil as an emerging power by many analysts, I and the United States historically had been said that I did not agree with that, that it friendly, there had also been a certain polite was not emerging, that in fact it had already distance as both countries had gone about emerged and it was already exercising a role their business but that increasingly we had as an important global player that needed to seen more connectivity between our societies be recognized and understood. and between our peoples that was going to Secondly, I said that Brazil’s emergence ultimately affect our diplomacy and our was really the product of its own domestic foreign policy towards each other. I noted that transformation as it addressed long-standing with time our societies and our peoples were social inequities like poverty, inequality and going to become the principal drivers of our relationship and not our governments, and I 5 Brazil Institute special report would argue that I was right in all of those of the United States and it is a powerful assertions and that, if anything else, my nearly message from the point of view of countries four years in Brazil have convinced me that around the world that are facing challenges they are still valid and actually still very much that Brazil has faced. Whether it is moving alive in shaping the U.S.-Brazil relationship. from authoritarian government to democratic Although Brazil has seen its own fair share government, whether it is moving from closed of internal political effervescence last June economies to open economies, whether it with the many demonstrations that we saw is moving from independent development across the streets, from our point of view models to ones of regional integration, this is evidence of the health of Brazilian or whether it is moving from isolation to democracy and globalization, I think the fact that there bRAZILIAN SOCIETY IS FAST Brazil has laid out a is broad public GLOBALIZING; THE U.S. STILL HOLDS pathway that should space for citizens be encouraging. It to demonstrate and SIGNIFICANT Fascination FOR should serve as an protest and make example not just to BRAZILIANS AND BRAZILIANS ARE their views heard, the United States as and that Brazilian CONNECTING BROADLY TO THE U.S. we look to influence institutions have the world in ways that the capacity to are meaningful to us respond to them and concurrent with in a meaningful way. As we look ahead I our values, but also, to countries as they try think we understand that Brazil’s domestic to determine how they can harness the peace transformation, because it was done within and stability that democracies and markets a democratic context and because it was can offer to address really significant social done largely within a market context, has challenges and historic social challenges. shown that democracy and markets can From our point of view, our ability to work and deliver development and that democracy and engage with Brazil is becoming increasingly markets are not about status quo or protecting important. I speak of engagement not just privileges, but about creating space with bilaterally but globally, as we try to shape the right kind of social policy and the right areas and methods of cooperation, whether it kind of approach to development so that the is in foreign assistance in either agricultural people themselves can have a central role in development areas or public health areas, determining the developmental direction of a weather it is in promoting non-proliferation, country. the peaceful resolution of disputes or This is a powerful message. It is a fashioning broad trade agreements. powerful message from the point of view As I noted before, one of the striking 6 Brazil Institute special report things that has happened over the past several increase in our bilateral trade, over $76 billion years has been the growing connectivity in goods and well over $100 billion in goods between our societies and our people. The and services. This is a trade potential that has most clear and dramatic evidence of that only been barely exploited – there is a lot more obviously is in tourism – especially in the that can and should be done. The focus of our enormous demand for visas that we have seen relationship on building out that commercial coming from Brazil and the flow of Brazilian and investment relationship has been one of tourists and students to the United States. the priorities of this administration, certainly Over the past 10 years our visa demand has one of the priorities of Secretary Clinton, and increased by over 600 percent. It increased 32 remains a priority of Secretary Kerry, which percent last year and it he expressed during continues on an upward By increasing the connectivity his visit to Brazil. swing even with a between our peoples and What is Brazilian economy that striking about the has slowed considerably our society we are creating a emergence of this and an exchange rate new connectivity is constituency that will demand our that has declined as that, increasingly, far as the Brazilian governments to resolve problems our societies will consumers and tourists determine the are concerned. This direction of our indicates that Brazilian relationship, and in society is globalizing at the process of doing a fast rate, that the United States still holds so, both of our governments, by encouraging significant fascination for Brazilians, and that this, have been building a ballast in the Brazilians are connecting broadly in the United relationship that help us in rough times, States, whether it be as tourists, as students, similar to saving for a rainy day. By increasing as investors, or whether it be as exporters or the connectivity between our peoples and importers. In this regard, I think that what we our society we are creating a constituency are seeing increasingly is a response from the that will demand our governments to resolve United States, a growing interest in Brazil, an problems that they might not be either willing increase in tourism, although not at the same or prepared to address in the immediate level that we are seeing on the Brazilian side, moment. but certainly a dramatic increase in business The larger point I wanted to make is and investment areas. The travel of governors, that as we looked at this relationship over the mayors, and state economic development past several years, our purpose was to build leaders of business to the U.S. has been what we called a 21st Century Partnership. quite remarkable. We have seen a significant That was what I told the press when I arrived 7 Brazil Institute special report in Brasilia in early February, and it has on the coast and having an embassy in Brasilia become a mantra of the relationship; in fact, would be like trying to cover the United it was used as the slogan of our relationship States from Boston, Washington, and Miami when President Rousseff visited the United with maybe an embassy in Cleveland. It does States for the first time. As we built out this not work diplomatically, or in terms of our 21st Century Partnership, as we realized we commercial activities and in terms of what needed to build a much more solid and more we are trying to do in our people-to-people robust dialogue structure, we also realized that outreach. we needed to focus on not just the frequency The President’s decision to authorize of dialogue but also the quality of dialogue. us to reopen consulates in We needed to connect our governments at and was an important first ministerial levels and at leader levels to ensure step towards expanding our presence on the that our bureaucracies had clear direction ground and to tapping, not only into a very and impetus to move forward on issues that large passive population of potential visitors were important to us and we also discovered to the United States, who had not been able that as we talked and as we built a dialogue to travel because they were unwilling to travel around key issues of importance to us, our all the way to the coast or to Brasilia to look points of view converged. This does not mean for visas, but also expanding our commercial that they were always the same; in fact, there and investment outreach. It is my hope that are still some stark differences, but what was with time we will be able to expand our important is that we did find important areas presence even further and build back the of cooperation and concern, such as climate kind of geographic presence that we need to change, food security, the fight against address successfully a country of continental transnational crime and the proliferation of proportions like Brazil. Additionally, another weapons, just to name a few. important component of our 21st Century As we did this we also recognized that Platform is rebuilding our cadre of Brazil we needed to build a 21st Century platform experts. for this relationship. We need to go back to For those of you who follow this, the point in time when we had consulates Brazil was a centerpiece of our hemispheric in Porto Alegre, Belo Horizonte, Belém, diplomacy for a long time and because of Salvador da , along with our embassy the many consulates we had in the region, in and consulates in São Paulo and our USAID and Peace Corps presence, and . Over time that has shrunk down the U.S. government had a large cadre to an embassy in Brasilia and consulates or of Portuguese speakers, a large cadre of consulate generals in Sao Paulo and Rio and Brazilianists who understood the country, Recife. If you think about it, having consulates who knew it well, who had lived there and

8 Brazil Institute special report sometimes served there for several iterations, Obviously, as we look ahead, we remain and who the U.S. government could call upon convinced that the United States and Brazil to help it understand what was happening in continue to build a strategic partnership Brazil. Through the ‘80s and ‘90s and through of 21st Century proportions. By strategic attrition, that changed because of the Central partnerships what I mean is something that American wars and because of the crisis in goes beyond a transactional relationship the Andes. Much of our hemispheric policy which has really defined the U.S.-Brazil really became Spanish-speaking focused and relationship for so long. In other words, what because of the decline in USAID presence, can either country get from each other? How the exit of the Peace Corps, and the decline things change with a strategic partnership is, in our geographic presence, we actually obviously the transactional nature remains, began to lose, in the to a certain extent, bureau of Western tHE u.s. AND bRAZIL CONTINUE TO BUILD A but both countries Hemisphere Affairs, work together to our Portuguese STRATEGIC PARTNERSHIP THAT GOES BEYOND shape common language expertise A TRANSACTIONAL RELATIONSHIP WHICH understandings and our Brazilianist of the world expertise and we HAS DEFINED OUR TIES FOR SO LONG and common ended up drawing understandings upon many of our of how we are to officers from Angola and Mozambique and operate in the world. This can only be done Cape Verde and Portugal. But, all that has through the kind of dialogue that we have changed because of the enormous demands been building over time. Now, unfortunately, for visas, the personnel demands that we have the decision by both presidents to postpone to staff our visa sections, and we now have the October state visit, which was the product hundreds of young officers who have done of the Snowden disclosures, has created a their first and second tours in Brazil who speak significant challenge in our efforts to build Portuguese, who have traveled throughout this type of strategic partnership because it the country, who know it well, and as we open has interrupted a dialogue that was nascent new consulates we are creating new spaces for but of growing importance and which held them to travel through Brazil for several tours. huge potential. I believe that we can recover So we are replicating what we had several that moment and that we have to recover that decades ago and I think this is going to be moment for the benefit of both countries and very important for our diplomacy because it not just our governments and not just how our is going to create not only a familiarity with states position themselves in the world, but Brazil but an understanding of how we need more importantly for our own citizens as we to deal with Brazil over time. 9 Brazil Institute special report try to understand Brazilian investment in the 18th, the White House released the results United States and U.S. investment in Brazil of the presidential review group that was and how the connectivity that I talked about investigating the impact of technology on earlier can enrich the lives of our citizens and information and intelligence gathering, how we can show that our diplomacy has a which is really the first step towards a larger relevancy to the daily lives of our citizens review of how the United States does signals that really will make it unique in our larger intelligence, and which will ultimately form diplomatic efforts in the hemisphere, and in the basis for us to reengage with the Brazilians many ways, in the world – underscoring the and make our own suggestions about the best importance of what I call social diplomacy. way forward in that relationship. As we have As we have attempted to deal with the done this, the Brazilians have been attentive disclosures issue, we of course have engaged and have waited with a certain expectation to with Brazil at several what we are going The U.s. and brazil have colloborated levels, many of which to be able to offer are well known. We with other partners interested in them and how we engaged with them are going to be able technically with things like internet governance, to move forward in the aftermath our intelligence privacy as a human right, and the role community led of the disclosures by our Director of espionage, within the structures of problem and of National challenge. We do international and regulations Intelligence, James not have that clear Clapper, meeting pathway yet, but we with the Brazilian will, sometime in delegation to address their immediate the new year, when we finish our larger inner concerns about the disclosures. There was also agency review and have a chance to take a what we call a political engagement, in which look at the recommendations that have been the Minister of Justice traveled to the United issued by the review group up to this point. States to meet with U.S. officials, including It is worth noting that as the United the Vice President of the United States, to States and Brazil have engaged on disclosures express Brazil’s political concerns, and then –related issues in international forum, whether several conversations and meetings between it be UNESCO’s General Assembly in Paris President Rousseff and President Obama as or whether it be in the second committee they tried to sketch out a pathway forward at the U.N. General Assembly-resolutions out of this challenge in the larger relationship. related to disclosures have been presented. The As many of you are aware, on December United States and Brazil have collaborated with other partners who are interested in 10 Brazil Institute special report things like the internet governance, privacy continue to look for ways to fashion an even as a human right, and the role of espionage, more fluid and more productive business and within the structures of international investment relationship between the two and regulations. We have been able to countries. In this regard, we have an awful lot fashion texts that the United States has joined to work from. We continue to see a huge flow consensus on and this is a significant and of Brazilian students to the United States, important step because it realizes that both which is going to continue to have a big impact of our governments have the capability of on American universities and especially understanding the concerns of the other and American graduate programs. The influx addressing them within a larger international of Brazilian students is the largest influx of environment where there are many equities students from the Western Hemisphere that at play. Yesterday, the U.N. General Assembly we have seen in the 21st century. Of course, as voted on a resolution I indicated earlier, that came out of the we are appreciative of the way in which the visa demand has third committee in the brazilian government has handled not slacked off at all; which, again, we quite the contrary, it were able to join the most recent communication continues to grow at consensus, and I an important rate. from snowden in his effort to solicit believe that is a very This, I positive sign. some kind of asylum from brazil believe, creates a We are also certain urgency for appreciative of the both governments way in which the Brazilian government has to find a way to address the problems and the handled the most recent communication questions raised by the Snowden disclosures from Edward Snowden to the Brazilian and this is what we are committed to and people and his effort to solicit some kind we are committed to a larger relationship of asylum from Brazil. The response of the with Brazil that understands that we occupy Brazilian government is noted and welcomed different places in the world, that we have, in by the United States. But as we look ahead, it some instances different sets of interests, but is evident that what the Snowden disclosures that ultimately we are committed broadly to have done, aside from creating a level of pause interests that are similar and compatible. at one part of our relationship, has largely not As we think about the U.S.-Brazil affected this broader people to people and relationship, it is really worthwhile to take a society to society engagement. In fact, what step back and understand how it fits into a we have found both among U.S. businesses larger international environment. Many of and Brazilian businesses is a deep and abiding you are familiar with the phrase “the long hunger to continue our engagement, and to war” by General John Abizaid, who in the 11 Brazil Institute special report aftermath of 9/11 said, “while we might walk to build. away from our enemies, our enemies will In this regard, our relationship with not walk away from us,” and that we need Brazil can be a bellwether for many reasons to be prepared to fight them whenever they that I have already described here. But, it is appear and in whatever form they appear. I also important to understand that Brazil is would argue that although the United States a country that has emerged into the world still faces very significant security challenges almost entirely through its soft power, and is around the world, and that while we still have a part of a larger network of countries that are enemies that will pursue us wherever we are, calling on reform and renewal of international we are in a different kind of environment institutions at a time in which there has right now. We been no cataclysmic have seen the bRAZIL EMERGED INTO THE WORLD THROUGH event that forces rise of China us into reforming and India, the SOFT POWER, AND IT IS PART OF A NETWORK or renewing these institutions, but a insertion of these OF COUNTRIES CALLING ON REFORM AND giant societies clear recognition that into international RENEWAL OF INTERNATIONAL institutions the institutions are economies, and becoming increasingly the emergence less relevant and of significant increasingly less countries such as Brazil, Turkey, South Africa, capable of addressing some of the very large Nigeria, Mexico, and Indonesia – all major problems and concerns that the world faces. regional powers with global ambitions. With Our ability to reestablish momentum in the this we have also seen the emergence of peoples U.S.-Brazil relationship, and to ensure that it and societies as major drivers and definers of gets back on the kind of meaningful track that so much of our foreign policy and diplomacy. both of our governments and our societies We are in a time and space where, while we want, is going to have a big impact on our protect our security, we need to understand ability to conduct this kind of long diplomacy that our future well-being is all going to be because ultimately, many, many years from about building partnerships and building now as historians look back on this time, alliances. This is going to require a new focus much of what we consider to be important and energy in our diplomacy. While “the long will not be seen as important. In fact, much war” might still be present for us, we have the of what occupies our every day will fall away immediacy of a long diplomacy that is going and become the chaff and dust of history. to require us to rethink how we engage in the What will be remembered and will world and the kind of partnerships we want be judged by historians is our ability to

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accommodate these rising powers to transform hair slicked back elegantly, erect, head back, and renew the institutions that we have created chest out, obviously proud of where he was over time; to be responsible to the larger and what he was doing. Roosevelt was dressed challenges that the world faces and to do so in camping clothes, with his hat off, his hair in ways that not only promote international messed up, his glasses slightly awry and peace and security but also promote slightly scrunched and looking at the cameras prosperity and the ability of individuals to as if he was wondering what was happening. achieve not just a place for themselves in It was a remarkable moment in the sense that determining national destiny, but a place for it captured enormously proud and successful themselves in determining their individual Rondon with a Roosevelt who had seen and destiny. This means done much and still not only opportunity history will judge our ability had much more to do and resources, in his life, but what was but it means an to accommodate rising powers striking about that trip, environment in to transform and renew the of course, is to have two which each of us men of such large egos, is respected. The institutions that we have created large purpose, and large United States and experience in life in Brazil, because of such close quarters for our broad commitment to democratic values, so long and to have them travel down a river to human rights, to open societies, are in the with no hope of ever coming out alive at the unique place to do this, and therefore there is end, but just an anticipation or an expectation urgency for us to recapture the direction and that they were on a historic journey that was purpose of our relationship, and I hope you going to identify the source of the Amazon, all share this belief. and accomplish something that was going This year is the 100th anniversary of to be important to Brazil and to the world. the Rondon Roosevelt scientific expedition I believe that, in many ways, this is an image to Brazil, which was so wonderfully captured for a larger U.S.-Brazil relationship that by Candice Millard in her book “The River recognizes that friendship and courage and of Doubt.” I have a picture in my office of purpose can accomplish a lot in this world. Rondon and Roosevelt standing on the foredeck of a vessel as it sailed up into where they depart and began their land trek to the River of Doubt before they began their journey downstream. It is a remarkable photograph because Rondon is dressed in navy whites with white shoes, his 13 Brazil Institute special report

Discussion opportunities that has been presented to us by the disclosures is really an ability to engage You mentioned that Brazil-U.S. relations with our publics about intelligence work in st are, in large part, determined by their the 21 century and understanding in many societies. In order for that to continue, ways what information technologies mean how should the U.S. address concerns for us. If you look at the disclosures issue about surveillance raised in Brazil by both closely, what you really have is a mapping government and society after the Snowden of 21st century technologies and a mapping disclosures? of the Internet and recognition that the way we communicate is changing fundamental One of the greatest challenges of democratic understandings that we have about things societies, of course, is to create space for the like privacy and individual agency and our kind of dialogue that we have to have now, own behavior. Much of this is not related and that is one of the reasons the President to intelligence agencies at all; it is related decided to name a presidential review group to large companies and how they use bulk to look specifically at signals intelligence data and metadata, and how they predict gathering, and the impact of information and try to influence how consumers behave. technologies on the 21st century, and have a In many ways, we have been offered, at the st space in which people could talk about this beginning of the 21 century, a window into publicly. this century, and it will allow us to make some One of the challenges with issues of fundamental decisions, not only about how intelligence gathering is that much of it cannot intelligence is gathered, but how we want to be talked about publicly, for all of the reasons structure information in our communities people are familiar with. Hence, I believe the and societies. presidential review group has done a good service in laying out a universe of options for The American government has begun the United States that will serve as a basis to discuss a new date for the Brazilian for a larger conversation. As far as Brazil is president’s visit to the U.S. Have you concerned, we have a lot of work to do, as do received any sign from the Brazilian side the Brazilians themselves, and that is going to that they are open to setting a date for the have to take place at a variety of levels at the beginning of next year? Considering your same time. Some of this is going to be done personal experience in Brazil, how frustrated between our leaders, some of this will be done were you with the postponement? We have between our diplomats and our intelligence already seen concrete consequences from officers, but some of this is going to be done the disclosures such as the move by the more broadly in the public sphere. One of the Brazilian government to buy Swedish jet fighters rather than American ones. What 14 Brazil Institute special report is your perception on this? Swedes and to the . This is something that they have wanted for a I had the pleasure of beginning my tenure in long time. Obviously, we are disappointed. Brazil with Wiki Leaks and ending it with Boeing did tremendous work in Brazil and Snowden. So what I tell people is: Pogo was will continue to do tremendous work in right. We have seen the enemy, and he is Brazil led by Ambassador Donna Hrinak and us. However, diplomacy and representing a the great Boeing teams that have come down country like the United States is not about to Brazil. Yet, this will not affect the kind of personal experience. It is about a responsibility cooperation we have developed over time with and a duty not only in this regard to President the Brazilian Air Force. We have seen clear Obama and the United States government, signs from the Brazilian government that it but more broadly to the is prepared to engage with people of the United In terms of the decision us in a meaningful way on States of America. It is issues related to disclosures, related to the fx2, obviously an enormous honor and especially in response to privilege, so we just try to we are disappointed Snowden’s request for do the very best we can. asylum, whether it be in I have deep affection for international settings such Brazil. I have deep affection for Brazilians as UNESCO and the U.N. General Assembly. and tremendous respect. I think Brazil is So, in that regard, I feel pretty good about a great nation that has accomplished great where we are right now. About rescheduling things and that will continue to do so over the state visit, this is an ongoing discussion time. I am deeply committed to the U.S.- we are having. I believe our conversation with Brazil relationship and to building the kind the Brazilians has to ripen a little bit before of partnership I talk about. Finding myself we can get a response from them. in a situation in which we were going to have to slow down what we were doing There are many in Washington who are diplomatically or look for other ways to skeptical about U.S. engagement with express this partnership was frustrating. Brazil. Some of the bureaucracies that At the same time, however, these are work on regional issues have a tendency challenges that in an odd way we relish because of understanding Brazil, and its reactions, it allows us to show what we are capable as “anti-American.” There is a long list of of. It tests our conceptual understandings issues that are pointed to as proof that the of relationships and it allows us to expand U.S. cannot have the strategic partnership the context of our diplomatic activity. In with Brazil that you are advocating for. Can terms of the decision yesterday related to you please address those arguments? the FX2 – first of all congratulations to the 15 Brazil Institute special report

As we build this relationship, there will be In many ways, the reason I talked a bit skeptics on both sides. And there are skeptics about the long diplomacy is because this is beyond Brazil and the United States for all the really the challenge of diplomacy, and this reasons you described. On the U.S. side there is the larger challenge we are going to face have always been people who have tended to with Brazil. If we are looking for in Brazil view Brazil within a South American context a country that is going to follow our lead at and tended to view it as a country that has all times, and if the Brazilians are looking to behaved differently than many of our partners. the U.S. a country that is prepared to meet its It is sometimes viewed as attempting to limit every need when it comes to market access or and frustrate our influence and presence, some other interest it is pursuing, then both especially in South America. On the Brazilian sides are going to be disappointed and the side, there have been skeptics who wonder, relationship is going to be troublesome. But if sometimes quite loudly, about the value of we are able to build common understandings Brazil attaching itself too closely to a country of the world where we can work together in like the United States because of what they meaningful fashion, then I think there is a lot perceive as the asymmetry in power and we can do and the potential for a productive, interests and especially the global reach of the fruitful, and positive relationship grows. I United States and the extent to which Brazil think it needs to be taken advantage of. finds itself sucked into our wake and forced to participate in things or act in a way that it You give such a coherent presentation, does not feel are in its best interest over time. and I know that you choose your words Part of our challenge has been to address very carefully. When addressing the NSA those skeptics and reshape understandings issue, you used the phrase “the disclosure of the relationship, recognizing that there is problem,” which makes it seem less serious a certain degree of truth on both sides and than I think it really is. It is not just on a that our interests at times do clash and that human rights level (right to privacy), but our ambitions sometimes work at cross- also on a commercial and political level. It purposes, but that the convergent parts of fundamentally has to do with trust. I think the relationship are more important than the that discounts the seriousness of what is divergent parts of the relationship and that happening, and I would like to hear you we have to be able to manage those parts of respond to that. On a second note, you the relationship that are problematic while spoke about the large number of Brazilian we try to build out and expand those parts students coming to the United States, but that function well. how is it going from the U.S. to Brazil? Can you speak about that and where you see that going in the future?

16 Brazil Institute special report

I will address your second question first. between institutions, between the universities, The number of American students going to and to use that to facilitate the movement of Brazilian universities is less. I do not have the faculty, of services, and eventually to break exact figures, but I think that is going to change down the closed-shop nature of universities. over time. Historically, when American’s Especially when it comes to things like credit have done overseas university stints, it has and degrees, so that they can be shared easily. been focused on Europe – largely the U.K., Now, this is a long term revision, but it is Spain, Italy, and France. That is starting to really our hope, over time, to take a program change. Now we see more Americans going which is really just about exchanging students, to Mexico and Argentina, and our hope is and use it to build relationships between our that, as we build out, we educational systems and will begin to build a larger IT is important to recognize our laboratories and our U.S. presence in Brazilian research institutes that universities. In order to that brazil does not have are going to provide a do that successfully, we an intelligence service that much more vigorous and need the help of Brazilian productive relationship for universities. Many matches its global ambitions both countries. Brazilian universities In terms of are not equipped to take disclosure problems, international students easily. They do not have challenges, crisis, outrage – you pick the word. dormitories, they do not have international You are right, I choose my words carefully. student programs, and so it tends to fall to Because again, we could call it something the student to find a place to live. They end up else, you could just call it treason. relying on the support of networks, but while some young students are good at building But that focuses on Snowden… those networks, other students are not, and they want a sort of “package deal.” There are a I agree. Again, what I want to be able to few Brazilian universities that are beginning do here is recognize the seriousness of the to understand this, and are beginning to try issue, recognize the impact that it has had to fashion mechanisms that will allow them on the relationship, and especially on Brazil’s to attract foreign students more easily, and understanding of that relationship. But, put it not just from the United States, but from into a context in which it does not overwhelm elsewhere. that relationship because I do not think it One of the things that we hope to be should. When Antonio was foreign able to do over time with the Science Without minister he said it cast a dark shadow on the Borders program, is use what is really a student relationship. And others have used words exchange program to build relationships like “trust” and “respect,” and obviously we 17 Brazil Institute special report are going to have to address all that in some to build out that partnership, especially as fashion, but at the same time, I believe that they look towards the World Cup and the the Brazil end of this has been exaggerated Olympics. However, this is much bigger than for political purposes, not by Brazilians intelligence issues; this is really about how a themselves, but by Snowden’s handlers. modern society manages the kind of data that I believe that much of it has been taken is flowing through our telecommunications out of context. I believe systems and our information that ultimately we are in a Brazil now needs to build hubs. It is going to require a position with the Brazilians, response that is, or at least a because of this, to rethink a growth model that is thought process, that is much larger than the one we have our intelligence liaison based on productivity relationships, because that going right now. is something Brazil does and competitiveness very poorly right now. This There are indications in Brazil is largely because of their that Brazilians are starting internal history and because of the relative to feel a little bit isolated in international smallness of its intelligence services. It is commerce due to the formation of the important to recognize that Brazil does not Pacific Alliance, the TPP negotiations, the have an intelligence service that matches its TTIP negotiations, and others. On the global ambitions, and that in order to do that other hand, the Brazilians seem to still be it really needs to build liaison relationships hog-tied by their participation in Mercosur with global intelligence services that are and by certain kinds of barriers within capable of helping it do the kinds of things their own still quite protectionist society and provide the kinds of services to its own to be able to make a break through on trade government that ultimately it is going to issues. They have been talking with the need. Brazil is in a privileged place right now. E.U. for many years and have not gotten far It largely does not have external enemies, it on that. That is one of the points that will does have adversaries, it does have people be most important for strengthening the that are very interested in what is happening overall bilateral relationship between the inside Brazil. It is the subject and the object U.S. and Brazil. Could you say a few words of cyber-assault every day, and Brazilians about that? know this. And so they are looking for We want more trade and investment. ways to build a capacity as they build out That is why Brazil is one of the focuses of their economy. It is our hope that they will the President’s National Export Initiative. It recognize that they have a useful partner in is why it is one of the focuses of the Select us, and that they need to see beyond their USA initiative designed to bring investment own immediate concerns caused by Snowden from overseas to the United States. We are 18 Brazil Institute special report prepared to go to great lengths to achieve would be a growing investor in the United that. What is heartening is the very strong States, that a company like Odebrecht would push from large industrial confederations like have numerous subsidiaries operating in the CNI on the bilateral trade relationship and United States and that Embraer was going to on trying to find ways to overcome aspects be a major supplier of regional aircraft, really of Brazilian trade and commerce, especially did not cross many people’s minds. In a very their historic market reserve policies that short period of time they have covered a lot of have limited our ability to penetrate certain ground, but they have got a lot more ground markets. In this regard, the negotiations that to cover. are ongoing between Brazil and the European Union are an interesting bellwether, because How does the recent decrease in GDP it is increasingly clear to Brazilians that they growth and the increase in economic have large opportunities in Europe, but they concerns in Brazil affect the U.S.-Brazil are being held back for a variety of reasons, relationship? some of them domestic and some of them related to the Mercosur relationships, and I think it is indicative of the changes obviously we are not calling on anybody to that are going on in Brazil and the challenges abandon their alliances or their relationship that Brazil faces. If you look at what Brazil trading structures. has been able to accomplish, it has done a lot It is up to each country to make of this on a consumer driven growth model. these decisions, but a relationship between That model has run its course. Brazil now Brazil and the European Union could put needs to build a growth model that is based someone in the position where you could on productivity and competitiveness. The imagine a triangulation. As the United challenges the Brazilian economy faces are States builds its transatlantic partnership, several. The biggest and most pressing is triangulating into South America or into infrastructure. In other words, how do you the free trade agreements that exist in South build the ports, the highways, the railways, America, or into the kind of agreements one and telecommunication systems that you might fashion with Brazil, would be a very need in order to move goods and services? interesting possibility, and one that I think And how do you do it in a timely fashion? would create a kind of a fascinating grouping Brazil is the second largest food exporter of markets as we look across into Africa and in the world, but it still cannot get all of its also into Asia. Brazil has come a long way product to the market, the port, and to the in a fairly short period of time, and when I foreign destinations that would happily buy was there the first time around from 1989- Brazilian product. It has huge infrastructure 1992, the thought that Brazil would be the needs that have to be addressed. It has home of major global companies, and that it significant human resource needs that have to 19 Brazil Institute special report be addressed as it builds out the managerial The good thing is, as Brazil has worked cores and the worker core that it needs to through these different parts of its economic fashion a 21st century economy. And then of development, it has globalized. It has become course, it has regulatory drag on it, whether it very aware of what is happening elsewhere in be in its labor regime, its tax structures, or the the world. And so I do think that Brazil is other regulations and rules that determine up to these challenges, the question is really how you start business, and more importantly, how fast? In this regard, Brazil is uniquely how you close businesses. positioned because there are very few countries These are not problems that are hidden in the world whose economic well-being is or unknown, and the Brazilians understand entirely in their own hands. I believe, for the this and have an advanced most part, that this is true dialogue on how to address Brazil tries to be very for Brazil. In other words, them. In many ways, the the decision it makes on infrastructure issues and careful in terms of how it infrastructure development the human resource issues deals with its neighbors and on education, human are the easiest ones to resources, and on regulatory resolve because they involve reform will determine how investment. Whereas the fast it grows. If it makes the regulatory drag is the hardest because it is right decisions quickly, it grows faster and political, and it involves taking on significant stronger. If it makes them more slowly or in entrenched interest within Brazilian society. a haphazard fashion, it grows more slowly. In some ways President Rousseff has inherited The thing is Brazil does not stop growing the toughest part of Brazil’s economic and continues to be attractive to American transformation. Fernando Henrique Cardoso investors and American businesses. cleared the space fiscally and monetarily for a long term positive growth path and President You mentioned a couple of times the U.N. Lula was able, through his social programs, resolution [on internet privacy proposed by to inject the capital into the system so that Brazil and Germany], agreed upon yesterday. Brazilians could take advantage of that long- How do you see the implementation of term growth path, and profit from it, and drive that resolution, and, since it is something growth rates that were quite high. However, that Brazil had fought a lot for, will it have President Rousseff took over this model just a direct impact in the actual state of the as it was kind of hitting a wall, and so it is relationship? really up to her to find a new way to address the challenges in the Brazilian economy. Her As I noted, we joined consensus on that, challenge is probably the toughest of the which means that we are fine with it. The three. reason we were able to join consensus is that 20 Brazil Institute special report some changes were made to the original texts base for global projection. Could you please that were proposed by the initial conveners or comment on how Brazil’s leadership is those who offered the text, and now broadly being perceived in the region? address our concerns. We recognize, as the resolution does, the importance of privacy, From my experience, I have noticed that and the importance of an Internet, which is Brazil tries to be very careful in terms of how seen as a global public good, and one that it deals with its neighbors. Largely because needs to be protected. Like so many U.N. it recognizes that its bigger ambitions, which resolutions these are designed to capture a are expressed through UNASUR, and to a sense of the members of the U.N., and to help certain extent CELAC, have to be managed provide direction. But they are not binding, with respect and understanding for the and rarely do they have aspects to them that concerns of other countries. It consistently are implemented. But that does not mean tries to present itself, not as a hegemonic they are not important, because they capture force, but as a coalescing force in the region. a political moment and a purpose that needs This is not easy when you are as big as Brazil, to be understood and respected. We just and when you border on every country except think the fact that we were able to work Chile and Ecuador. As the Brazilians like with our other partners, but also with Brazil, to point out, they even border on France to fashion a text that we could accept was through French Guiana. It is a complicated important. I think it shows that whatever diplomatic dance and it is made more Brazil’s intentions might have been when it complicated by Mercosur’s relationships and started that process, it recognized early on the trade challenges that Brazil faces with that it was not going to achieve everything it Argentina, because they tend to overload wanted to in that process, and it had to make some of the circuits in the structures that concessions that actually created a better they have. The Brazilians work very hard at environment for the kind of dialogue that we this. First of all the efforts to fashion regional are having. integration units, from our point of view, are positive. Whether it is UNASUR, whether My question has to do with Brazil’s it is SICA in Central America, whether it relationship with other countries in the is the Caribbean community, these are all hemisphere, whether South America, or efforts that facilitate dialogue and facilitate more broadly. There is broad respect for exchanges that are ultimately for the well- Brazil in terms of what it has achieved being of the sub-regions and the broader economically and in terms of democracy. hemisphere. The biggest impediment to However, there is less willingness to cede a Brazil that dominates South America is leadership in the hemisphere to Brazil, even largely its inability to open its markets. If though it aspires to use South America as a Brazil could open its markets, the Andean 21 Brazil Institute special report countries never would have done free trade As we try to understand the agreements with the United States or at least demographics in Brazil, and try to understand not with the speed that they did them. They better what has been driving this tremendous would have done agreements with Brazil. surge in visas, the growth of the middle class When the Mexicans realized they had been was seen immediately as one of the obvious organized out of Latin America, and they reasons. As we looked at the issue more closely, were not a part of SICA, UNASUR, or any we realized that was not really true because Caribbean community, they launched their many of those who had recently joined the own initiative – CELAC – that was all about middle class were not traveling to the United putting themselves back into the region. In States; they were still traveling inside Brazil. some ways, the most daring and interesting What we were seeing was increased travel diplomatic move of recent times has been by upper‑middle class, and because they had Mexico joining the Pacific Alliance, because more disposable income they had developed that is putting Mexico into South America an interest in travel. We had to work very in a way that many never anticipated, and hard in order to fashion a visa process that created the possibility of a connected series of reduced wait times from 120 days to 2 days free markets along the Pacific coast all facing and accommodated the many Brazilians who Asia, without a U.S presence. I do not believe were traveling to the United States. this is a challenge to Brazil so much as it is We recognized that there is a whole something that they have to understand and new group of entrants into the middle class address in a way that reflects the interest and that have yet to attempt to travel to the United concerns of the members of the alliance. States, but that they are coming. It is kind of like a rogue wave out there. We know it is A year and a half ago, President Obama somewhere in the middle of the ocean and was in Brazil and working groups between we know it is not stopping. We have, through the two state departments were established our new consulates, through expanding our to discuss the visa waiver program – to set consular sections and the number of officers up roadmaps and pre discussions, knowing we have in building, built the capacity to that the conditions were not yet in place produce 1.8 to 2 million visas a year. for an actual agreement, but laying the Right now we are doing about 1.3 groundwork for that. Where does that million visas a year. I personally do not think discussion stand and what is the path that is enough if this rogue wave keeps coming forward? at us. We could find ourselves back in a near crisis situation in the next couple of years, especially if the Brazilian economy picks up in terms of growth, and if these new entrants

22 Brazil Institute special report into the middle class are able to consolidate them to first of all, dig through databases that themselves in the middle class. That is where are not easily connected right now. Secondly, the Visa Waiver Program becomes very to share risks assessments that they doubt important and it is one of the reasons why they are legally allowed to do. So, we think both countries have to keep working at it. there is a way forward on this. We think we There was real hesitancy on the part can solve these problems but it is going to of the Brazilian take some hard work government to the advice we give to american on both sides. address the Visa companies when they come down Waiver Program. The cost of doing First of all, because is a take on antonio carlos business is quite their experience in high in Brazil for jobim’s famous dictum that Spain and Portugal multinational has not been a happy brazil is not for beginners companies. Which one, and they end up way does the U.S. having people turned plan to advocate around at ports of for U.S.‑based multinationals in order to entry. It is much better to have people denied facilitate the process of doing business in a visa in Rio, São Paulo, or Recife, than to Brazil? have them be told in Miami, or Los Angeles, or New York that they are not coming in with The famous “Brazil cost” affects their families, that they have to turn around everyone. One of the striking things about and go back. The Brazilians were looking for BNDES (National Bank for the Economic assurances that they were not going to repeat and Social Development) is that they will the experiences that they had in Lisbon and lend to American companies if they are based Madrid. Visa Waiver Programs like level- in Brazil. Without a doubt, as I mentioned, entry programs and other measures that are there is an overhang in the economy that needs designed to facilitate travel have a security to be addressed to promote not just Brazilian component to them. It is not that we ask companies to help generate increased growth, people for information on travelers, we do but also the growing presence of global not, but we do want governments to give us companies and global investors. Some of a thumbs up or a thumbs down on people. this, of course, has to do with the regulatory In other words, whether they are risks or not costs and the legal costs. We have a very large based on information available to national foreign commercial service presence in Brazil, governments. And this is very hard for the and a very skilled one that operates out of all Brazilians to do legally because it requires of our consulates and our Embassy, and is

23 Brazil Institute special report prepared to help all American companies that attractive to American industries. Again, are interested. Many of the multi-nationals we have very clear instructions from the come down with their own resources and can President, the Secretary of State, and the manage their way through a lot of this, but Secretary of Commerce, that our number many companies are coming in fresh, and what one priority is commercial diplomacy and so we are especially seeing with companies that this was my priority. I am sure it is Liliana come down, say with state delegations led by Ayalde’s priority as the new Ambassador to governors, is a great interest in either selling Brazil, so although I am not there now, I into the market or being present, but very would just recommend that you work very little understanding of how to do it and that closely with the embassy and our consulates is where I think we can play an important role because we will provide all the help we can. because we can facilitate contacts and try to look for Brazilian partners because ultimately, We have heard over the years about Brazil is a country where the extent of which opportunities for trilateral cooperation you have Brazilian partners working with between the United States, Brazil, and you, it is going to make it a lot easier. Africa (Sub‑Sahara Africa). What are the The advice we give to American prospects in terms of trade investment, companies when they come down is, first and financing, and industries like agriculture, foremost, a take on Antonio Carlos Jobim’s infrastructure, and health? famous dictum that Brazil is not for beginners; that it is a complex and complicated country. There are lots of possibilities. In fact, In many ways it is like an archaeological dig on the foreign assistance side, we began our in the sense that its laws, and regulations, and trilateral cooperation in São Tomé e Príncipe codes never seem to go away, they just seem in an effort to eradicate malaria. I have to build one on top of another. Navigating extended that to Mozambique, where we are the system can be challenging for some doing some really important work on the public businesses. Also, Brazil, as Tony Harrington health side and agricultural productivity side, says, is not for short-timers. It is not for hot but we are also working with the Brazilians money, it is not for people who are going to in Honduras and in Haiti on agricultural come in and come out, it is for people who are productivity and some other projects. This is prepared to make a long-term commitment brand new for us and it is brand new for the simply because it does take a long time to Brazilians. Working through the Brazilians establish yourself and to find a way forward. Cooperation Agency, ABC, has really been We believe that given the direction that Brazil an interesting and fruitful experience. It is a is going, given the size of its domestic market, small agency, staffed largely out of Itamaraty. and given that the platform that it could be Brazil still does not have the cadres of for exports into the region and beyond, it is development professionals that one would 24 Brazil Institute special report imagine in that kind of an agency. However, again, it is complicated to a certain extent by it is building them over time and we have legal structures and rules and regulations, we created an interesting relationship between continue to try find a way forward on that USAID and ABC where we have exchanged because the potential is huge. officers and USAID officers have sat in ABC, and ABC officers have sat in USAID, as we You mentioned the issue with Iran and the try to get a better feel for how both sides Lula administration as a point of contention work and where there might be synergies in the Brazil-U.S. relationship. Have we and connections. We are quite interested gotten over that, and is the local of and excited about extending that possibility the South American countries possibly because we think that Brazil, especially on a model for the kind of weapons on non- the agricultural proliferation regime side and on the We are way over Iran...Brazil is never that we are looking at public healthcare happy with sanctions regimes [but] in Middle East and side has some other areas? Is this an really interesting it complies with them faithfully. area where we might things to offer see more cooperation? countries in Africa and elsewhere. Brazil does have some legal We are way over Iran. I think that restraints or constraints on how far it goes in Brazil has been a very useful partner. All of this kind of cooperation, especially related to Brazil is never happy with sanctions regimes. how money flow back and forth between the It complies with them, and faithfully. But federal government and ABC, and also how more importantly, especially under President it does its development assistance abroad. Rousseff, the Brazilians have made clear that So, in some instances it is really USAID Iran had a lot of explaining to do, and that if that is paying for Brazilian services in some it wanted to have a normal relationship, it was of these countries, but we think over time as going to have to be respectful of UN Security Brazil builds out its development assistance Council resolutions and the desire expressed programs it is going to begin removing these repeatedly by the Security Council and barriers or streamlining them in a way in elsewhere that Iran addresses the concerns which ABC and the Brazilian government related to its nuclear program. Brazil has also can do more. On the trilateral assistance been supportive publicly of the agreement around businesses, Ex-Im Bank (Export- that the P5+1 was able to de-fashion with Import Bank of the United States) has been Iran and I think Brazil sees this as a very in discussions with BNDES about joint positive development. financing of projects especially where there In regards to Tlatelolco, the Latin is a U.S. and a Brazilian partner. Although, American experience around nuclear 25 Brazil Institute special report proliferation, and especially the agreement with Brazil? between Brazil and Argentina to end their weaponization programs and to create mutual When these issues first appeared and verification capabilities was an innovative especially when the allegations of head of and important agreement, and one that governments surveillance appeared, we treated could be useful as we look at how we manage the Brazilians in the same way we treated verification regimes elsewhere. I think the Germans, which is quite remarkable ultimately the challenge we are going to face, given what other allegations were out there. whether it is in Iran, North Korea or elsewhere, The Brazilians understood this and I think is going to really be about verification. In appreciated it in their own way because that regard, oddly enough, this is where it was indicative of the importance of the intelligence is going to play a very important relationship. Our intelligence relationships role because what we with both countries are have seen over time ON [U.S. reactions to] allegations quite different. Germany is that especially on has much more equity of heads of governments the non-proliferation in our intelligence side, intelligence is surveillance, we treated the community than Brazil central to how we do does, and especially with our verification work brazilians in the same way troops participating in because while much we treated the germans ISAF (International of it can be done Security Assistance publicly, and much Force, in Afghanistan) of it can be done by because much of the inspectors, not all of it can be. So, as we think force protection intelligence comes from U.S. about the issues raised by Mr. Snowden, we sources. need to understand that not all of it is about I do not want to get into characterizing spying on countries for immediate benefit. the conversation that President Obama had Much of it has to do with supporting large with the Chancellor, I will leave that to the international agreements. White House. What is important is that there has been communication at several times Can you shed some light on why President between President Obama and President Obama apologized to Angela Merkel, Rousseff, and there will be communication in but not to Dilma Rousseff for the spying? the future that addresses that specific issue. Second, would you consider recommending Given the circumstances, we are probably to the government a pardon for Snowden, about in as good a position as we could given that he is such a thorn in our relations possibly be in terms of how we do our leader- with so many countries, but particularly to-leader engagement and our country-to- 26 Brazil Institute special report country engagement. In terms of unexpected recognizing that other major economies out actions, this was raised briefly in a 60 Minutes there, in particular the Chinese economy, piece on the NSA, and I think it is clear, from have very different understanding on what what the White House and our Department foreign assistance is. So far, the dialogue has of Justice has said, that you should not expect been really positive. an unexpected gesture. As I have noted, we have been able to fashion third country assistance programs You have mentioned bilateral and trilateral where we are able to share expertise and cooperation opportunities. In terms of funding, in order to accomplish common goals, energy, environment and health issues and I think that if we are able to do this right, related to infection and endemic diseases, it could create a new kind of development what opportunity for assistance diplomacy bilateral cooperation In the area of public health... that we could deploy do you see? in other countries that american pharmaceutical have emerging – we In regard to are strong economies companies are prepared to come USAID, we have that are playing an done something really to brazil to do agreements with increasingly important remarkable with our role in sub‑regions. AID mission in Brazil brazilian companies to transfer But as we have done because it was on the significant technologies this, of course we have chopping block, as it had to kind of pull has been several times back on some of our in our history, but historic development we were able to convince our colleagues at roles in Brazil, and largely our AID program USAID here in Washington and elsewhere today is focused on biodiversity issues and that now was the time to move from an AID climate change issues. We still do some mission that was effectively a development small public health issues. We have got mission, to one that was a policy engagement a few alternative energy programs, but mission. The idea being that as Brazil’s this does not represent the future of our economy expands and as it builds its own development assistance program. However, foreign assistance programs, that we needed it does represent the future of our commercial to be there working with them and engaging engagement and our investment engagement, with them on a daily basis with the hope of and what is striking for me, especially in the helping to influence and shape how they did area of public health, is the degree to which assistance work so that it was more compatible American pharmaceutical companies are with what we were trying to accomplish, prepared to come to Brazil and are prepared 27 Brazil Institute special report to do agreements with Brazilian companies some fashion and use the event as a way to to transfer significant technologies, and build assert leadership. out a capacity for Brazilian pharmaceutical In this particular situation, they companies, and this is largely driven by the recognized that they could do both. They emerging middle class, and a demand for could act as a leader of a particular group of high quality . countries, while at the same time brokering. They found a way to bridge that divide, In light of the WTO and with any luck In regard to bali, congratulations success in Bali, to they will be able to what degree do you to roberto azevêdo, who did maintain that over think that, in fact, time. Brazil’s view of its a really wonderful job in own geo‑economic, managing what could have been You mentioned that and specifically, you hope to build trade leadership is a disastrous event for the WTO up constructive changing from one in relationships with which it is a leader of Brazil, promoting the developing world, to one in which it is a common values like democracy and human broker of some sort between the developing rights. What makes you feel hopeful? In world and the developed world? South America, there are some countries that do not share the same views and values I do think that synergies are there, in terms of democracy promotion and it is just that they are moving from the human rights. It is critical that Brazil plays development world into the commercial and more visible role, more effective role, and investment world. In regard to the WTO in how do you see that role developing in terms Bali, first of all congratulations to [Director of working together constructively with the General] Roberto Azevêdo, who did a really U.S. government in South America? wonderful job in managing what could have been a disastrous event for the WTO. I think In terms of human rights, it is a great it was in everyone’s interest to make sure that question and it is one of the big struggles the Bali event was successful. With Azevêdo that Brazil faces as it tries to find a way to at its head, the Brazilians felt a special need express through its foreign policy what it to play as much of a role of broker as they means to be a democracy in the region and could. Historically, Brazil has a process of in the world. Historically, Brazil has been negotiations with two mentalities. One is to inherent to principles of non‑intervention get the best deal possible, but if that is not and non‑interference, and self-determination going to work then try to assert leadership in of peoples, and has been very reluctant to 28 Brazil Institute special report criticize countries no matter what they and the ethnicity of its immigrants. are doing because at one level it does not At the same time, there is something that believe it should, but at another level it also makes everyone a Brazilian and that, in many has recognized that it is quite vulnerable to ways, is what is remarkable about Brazil. criticism, it does not want to open the door However, even today people in the southern for reciprocal attacks, and wants to build a part of Brazil will be dismissive of the northern certain protection, part of Brazil, and people in northeastern part of Brazil will be especially with As brazil globalizes, brazilians inside institutional dismissive of people and regional themselves are going to in the southern part of organizations. Brazil. One can find wonder what it means to be a I do not the same thing in the think this is a stance democracy in the world and how United States, and I that it would be think that that is what able to maintain it expresses that democracy is remarkable about in the long-term Brazil. Like the United simply because as States, it is able, through Brazil globalizes and as a society globalizes, its diversity, to present an image of itself that Brazilians themselves are going to wonder everyone seems to understand. Everyone what it means to be a democracy in the knows what a Brazilian is, and I just think world and how it expresses that democracy. that is a tremendous accomplishment. The fact that internally you have such a strong commitment to an open society, such FAPESP Week: 2013 a strong commitment to individual rights, is a very positive thing to work from. This is going to be an evolutionary process over time, and it is just one we cannot give up on, we just have to keep focused. In regards to the tensions within the country, it is important to understand that Brazil is a huge country. Of all the colonial entities that were established in the region, it is the only one that has held together of that size. I am sure there are all kinds of linguistic and cultural reasons for that, and demographic reasons for it, but although it is a big country, it is very diverse linguistically and in terms of its traditions 29 Brazil institute Created in June 2006 as part of the Wilson Center’s Latin WOODROW WILSON INTERNATIONAL CENTER FOR SCHOLARS American Program, the Brazil Institute strives to foster informed dia- Jane Harman, Director, President, and CEO logue on key issues important to Brazilians and to the Brazilian- U.S. relationship. We work to promote detailed analysis of Brazil’s BOARD OF TRUSTEES public policy and advance Washington’s understanding of con- Thomas R. Nides, Chair temporary Brazilian developments, mindful of the long history Sander R. Gerber, Vice Chair that binds the two most populous democracies in the Americas. The Institute honors this history and attempts to further Public Members: James H. Billington, Librarian of Congress; David Ferreiro, Archivist of the United bilateral cooperation by promoting informed dialogue between States; James Leach, Chair, National Endowment for the Humanities; Kathleen Sebelius, these two diverse and vibrant multiracial societies. Our activi- Secretary, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services; John Kerry, Secretary, U.S. De- ties include: convening policy forums to stimulate nonpartisan partment of State; G. Wayne Clough, Acting Secretary, Smithsonian Institution; Arne Duncan, reflection and debate on critical issues related to Brazil; promot- Secretary, U.S. Department of Education. Designated Appointee of the President from Within ing, sponsoring, and disseminating research; participating in the the Federal Government: Fred P. Hochberg, Chairman and President, Export-Import Bank of broader effort to inform Americans about Brazil through lectures the United States. and interviews given by its director; appointing leading Brazilian and Brazilianist academics, journalists, and policy makers as Wil- Private Citizen Members: Timothy Broas, John T. Casteen, III, Charles Cobb, Jr., Thelma Duggin, son Center Public Policy Scholars; and maintaining a comprehen- Jane Watson Stetson, Barry S. Jackson sive website devoted to news, analysis, research, and reference materials on Brazil. For more information about the Brazil Institute, please visit: www.wilsoncenter.org/brazil Paulo Sotero, Director www.brazilportal.wordpress.com Michael Darden, Program Assistant @brazilportal Anna Carolina Cardenas, Staff Intern Tel: 202.691.4087 / Fax: 202.691.4076

For more information on the event, please visit: http://wilsoncenter.org/event/conversation-ambassador-thomas-shannon Photos courtesy of flickr users Adam Fagan for the White House, planalto.gov.br for the Palacio do Planalto, and John Tyler for the Wilson Center images

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This publication contains the presentations made at a seminar hosted by the Brazil Institute at the Wilson Center on December 19, 2013. It was produced by Brazil Institute Program Assistant Michael Darden and Staff Intern Anna Carolina Cardenas and edited by director of the Brazil Institute, Paulo Sotero, who moderated the discussion.