CENTER FOR ORAL AND PUBLIC HISTORY CALIFORNIA STATE UNIVERSITY, FULLERTON Karcher Family/Southern California Food Culture and Visionaries Oral History Project An Oral History with ANDREW PUZDER Interviewed By Allison Varzally On December 7, 2009 OH 4430 This is a slightly edited transcription of an interview conducted for the Center for Oral and Public History, sponsored by California State University, Fullerton. The reader should be aware that an oral history document portrays information as recalled by the interviewee. Because of the spontaneous nature of this kind of document, it may contain statements and impressions which are not factual. Scholars are welcome to utilize short excerpts from any of the transcripts without obtaining permission as long as proper credit is given to the interviewee, the interviewer, and the University. Scholars and those intending commercial profit from the use of this material must, however, obtain permission from California State University, Fullerton before making more extensive use of the transcription and related materials. None of these materials may be duplicated or reproduced by any party without permission from the Center for Oral and Public History, California State University, PO Box 6846, Fullerton CA 92834-6846. Copyright © 2009 Center for Oral and Public History California State University, Fullerton O.H. 4430 CENTER FOR ORAL AND PUBLIC HISTORY CALIFORNIA STATE UNIVERSITY, FULLERTON NARRATOR: ANDREW PUZDER INTERVIEWER: Allison Varzally DATE: December 7, 2009 LOCATION: Carl Karcher Enterprises in Carpinteria, California PROJECT: Karcher Family/Southern California Food Culture and Visionaries AV: I’m Allison Varzally here with Andy Puzder on Monday, December 7, 2009 in Carpinteria, California. And, it is my great pleasure. And, thank you for creating some time for us, and being so patient. Um, I’m gonna start off— AP: It’s a pleasure to be here, and I’m glad you’re doing this for Carl. AV: Yes. Well, I’m gonna start out with some general background questions— AP: Sure. AV: —and then, maybe some questions about, um, Carl, the individual and the entrepreneur, and then, ask some general questions about the evolution of the food business in Southern California and your role in that evolution. So— AP: Okay. AV: —um, if you would start off—would you spell your name for us? AP: It’s, uh, Andrew F., and then, Puzder is P as in Peter, u-z-d as in David, e-r. AV: Um-hm. And, where were you born? AP: Uh, Cleveland, Ohio. AV: And, how did you find your way to Southern California? AP: I went to law school in St. Louis, Missouri. AV: Um-hm. PUZDER O.H. 4430 AP: At Washington University. And, in 1986, I got a telephone call to represent, uh, a guy called Carl Karcher (laughs) in, uh, in a lawsuit in federal court in St. Louis. And, in connection with that lawsuit, Carl and I got to be very good friends. And, at one point, uh, he—his lawyer of thirty years had decided to retire and go into the, uh, into the real estate business. This would’ve been in 1990. And, I had only handled the one case for Carl, but he called and said, “Would you like to handle some more business for me? My lawyer’s going to retire.” And I said, uh, “I’d like to handle all your business for you. (both laugh) And-uh, I’ll fly out and spend a week in Anaheim a month, and you cover the, you cover the hotel, and the firm will cover the airfare. And, I’ll bill you at St. Louis rates, as opposed to California rates.” AV: Which, presumably were lower, right? AP: Were lower, yes. And-uh—and, he liked that. Carl and I had gotten to be good friends in connection with that one case. And-uh—and then, I was—as I was—for about a year I flew back and forth and realized that while Carl thought he was worth $150 million, he was essentially bankrupt. And-uh—and, you know, had a number of really bad investments, and was, was kind of not being told by his advisors just how bad things were. And so, I sat him down in the house—at his house and said, “Look, you need to know this.” And, he—at first he said, “No, no.” He says, “That can’t be true.” And, I went—Carl was very good with numbers. He was kind of a savant with numbers. So, I took him through the numbers. And, at the end he said, “Well, I guess you better move out here and get me out of trouble.” (both laugh) And, I talked to my wife, and we decided that it was—uh, it would be a good move, you know? It was something we wanted to do. I mean, it really was a tough decision. I’m being kind of glib about it. But, I was, uh, an equity partner at a prestigious firm in St. Louis and had clients, and went to law school there, lived there sixteen years. So, I was, uh—I had a good career there, but decided that, uh, I wanted to see if I could get Carl out of trouble. And, I liked California. So, we made the move. AV: So, tell me, why was it that Carl first approached you in 1986? And then, how did you discover these, uh, financial discrepancies? AP: Well, it’s kind of interesting. I, I had a case for a, I had a case for a, uh—I had done a lot of traveling out West early in my career. I used to—I started out representing Morris Shenker and the Dunes Hotel. He was the major shareholder of the Dunes Hotel in the seventies, late seventies, early eighties. And, he had a lot of real estate holdings in California and Nevada. And, I represented—I worked in Morris’ office and represented him in the West and made—met a lot of people. And-um, a broker who I knew, um, had a broker—a securities broker I knew had gotten sued. His firm had gotten sued in St. Louis. And so, he called and said, “Would you represent us in this case,” which I did. And, there was a—the broker who had, who had created the problem that lead to that lawsuit was, um, a broker in a different, in this case I handled for Carl. And, I had settled the first case, um, you know, for very little money and got the broker who had caused the trouble out of trouble, which he loved. AV: (laughs) 2 PUZDER O.H. 4430 AP: And so, when Carl got sued in St.—in—actually, Carl was sued in Kansas City. The original case was in St. Louis, but Carl got sued in Kansas City. But, people in California think Kansas City and St. Louis are, like, right next to each other, you know? AV: (laughs) I know. AP: So, when the, uh—so when the, um, when this broker who was also involved in Carl’s lawsuit found out that the case was in Missouri, he said, “I know just the guy.” And-um so, they called. And-uh, I remember I got the call sitting at my desk, and somebody said, “Well, Carl Karcher, uh, who’s the CEO of Carl’s Jr. and the founder, has been sued in Kansas City. Can you handle the case?” And, I wasn’t really all that familiar with who Carl was, at the time. I knew about Carl’s Jr. from my travels in the West. But I said, “Sure, just send me a check for $10,000 and-um, a copy of the complaint, and I’ll run a conflicts check.” And, I got ‘em both FedEx the next morning, so—and then, on September 24, 1987, which was the day that I got married— (laughs) AV: Busy times. AP: Yeah. I, I had to meet with Carl the next day. So, before our—my wife’s and my honeymoon, we, we got married, we flew to California, (laughs) I met with Carl the next day. That was my first meeting with Carl. And-uh, you know, then we just, we just hit it off right from the beginning. AV: And so, what were you first impressions, uh, of Carl? AP: Well, that he was big. That was the first one. (both laugh) And, that he spoke very, very fast. I mean, Carl was, uh, was very difficult to understand if you didn’t, if you didn’t know him well. He, he actually—there was, um, a guy named Eric Ingle that ran Carl’s trust, at the time. And, we’d have a meeting with Carl that would go fifteen, twenty minutes, and I’d have to ask him afterwards exactly what Carl had said because he would, he would speak so fast, and assuming that you knew things, you know, that maybe you didn’t know. But, after a while, he—Carl—what a wonderful guy—he would tell the same story over and over. So eventually, you started—did begin to understand him. And then, I was interpreting for people who (both laugh) had sat through a meeting. But, it was—and, you know, he was a very engaging guy, very charismatic, obviously in control in the room. Very smart guy, a real interesting individual. AV: And, when you moved out—and, this was a risky decision for you and your family, professionally. AP: It sure was.