[Tuesday, 23 August 19831 126726

Before I refer to some items in the I4irgtiaiffw Qnwii Governor's Speech. may I place on record my Tuesday, 23 August 1983 appreciation of some of the points made by the Hon. M. McAleer in her reply to that speech. Miss McAleer will be aware that I The PRESIDENT (Hon. Clive Griffiths) took would not agree with all the comments she the Chair at 4.30 p.m., and read prayers. made, but I am certainly interested in what she said concerning the setting up of standing QUESTIONS committees, not only of this Chamber but, indeed, of Parliament in general. I am sure Questions were taken at this stage. everyone is aware that if Parliament, as an instrument of our democracy, is to remain COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE and flourish, then committees will have to be Select Commit tee: Standing Orders Suspension. set up in the very near future. This will retain confidence in the institution of Parliament. HON. DI. K. BANS (South Metropolitan- Leader of the House) [5.08 p.m.]: I move- With just a little consideration, one will re- alise the great amount of time these standing That Standing Order No. 15 be so far sus- committees could save Parliament. More in- pended as to enable the motion standing in formation and expertise would be available to the name of the Hon. 1. G. Medcalf to be re- this Chamber, and the fact that people would solved finally before the adoption of the Ad- be able to put their point of view before com- dress-in-Reply. mittees from time to time would certainly Question put and passed. allow us to make decisions based on the views of the people at large. That is essential in the Motion future and, indeed, it is essential right now. However, I am not one of those who Debate resumed from 2 August. expect these rather dramatic changes to be made HON. D. K. BANS (South Metro- tomorrow, next week, or even next month. politan-Leader of the House) (5.10 P.m.]: The Suffice it to say that despite the fact we be- concept of a committee system is one which has lieve we probably influence the course of been widely adopted throughout the western human history, it is really the other way world and possibly none is better known than that around-the will of the people is exerted on adopted by the Australian Senate some 13 years us as well as on society in general. The will of ago. I believe that situation was brought about by the people, in the long term, and indeed in the constant prodding of Senator Lionel Murphy. the short term, brings about the changes The Hon. Ian Medcalf, in presenting the mo- which are so vital for the survival of the tion to this House, gave a good account of the his- system under which we live. For these torical situation in relation to the appointment of reasons I hope the Government will pay some committees and that which applies in the Aus- heed to the call made by the Hon. M. McAleer in her Address-in-Reply speech. tralian Senate. Much of that information can be obtained from Odgers Australian Senate Practice Further on I said- which devotes a comprehensive chapter to the The other side of the coin is that a system subject of committees. of standing committees will involve more Over a period of many years the call has been members of Parliament in the decision-mak- made by members in this Chamber to institute ing processes. When I use the term "members of Parliament" I mean all such a system, but it is strange that successive mem- Liberal Party-Country Party coalitions in this bers in this Chamber who are not members of the Cabinet. As I have so often been re- place have ignored the plea until now. minded by Mr MacKinnon, the Cabinet is I recall the Hon. Margaret McAleer, when the Government. Some system of standing moving the Address-in-Reply motion on 25 committees is essential because at the present March 1976, strongly recommending the setting time the confidence of the people is being up of Standing Committees, and she presented eroded and the role of members of Parlia- her case very well. In addressing myself to that ment is being downgraded. I often have the motion on 30 March 1976 I supported the feeling that at worst we are highly paid mess- honourable member's remarks, and I quote from enger boys, and at best we are highly paid my speech on page 16 of Hansard as follows- welfare and social workers. Many of the 1268 1268[COUNCIL]

problems we handle could be better handled well, that did not impress the Leader of the by people trained in welfare and social work. Government one little bit. I do not want to quote all the debate, but those I suppose when the Leader of the Opposition members who were in the Chamber at that time gets to his feet again he will say, "But it is a little know very well that the then Leader of the different now; there is a new leader, and I have a Government in this Chamber quickly put Miss different view". However, as I recall the situation McAleer's proposals to rest in a few sentences. I in 1976, no Government member supported the will not continue to quote that debate because Hon. Margaret McAleer's suggestion. I would members can read it themselves. It seemed like to emphasise what the then Leader of the strange to me, of course, that when Miss McAleer Government said- made that very excellent suggestion, which was ..nor will I take such action in relation to supported by my excellent speech and suggestions. the remarks made by anybody else in the the matter did not even hit the deck. course of this debate. Suddenly we are here today discussing a motion It is now 1983 and that happened some seven moved by the Leader of the Opposition-times years ago. Perhaps the conservative parties in this have changed! What has caused the change? The State are starting to move very slowly towards the cause is that the Government for the last nine vital issue of a democratic Parliament. I hope so. years is now in Opposition and its views have That was certainly a rebuff to my remarks on a changed dramatically. committee system; but more to the point the then Hon. P. G. Pendal: Rome was not built in a Government showed a complete disregard of the day. proposition of one of its own members. I empha- Hon. D. K. DANS: At that time, the Leader of sise that although it was all right for the Hon. the House said- Neil McNeill to wipe me off like that, it was not Before I refer to some other items in the all right for him to also wipe off the Hon. Governor's Speech, may I place on record my Margaret McAleer without referring to his mem- appreciation of some of the points made by bers. the Hon. M. McAleer in her reply to that As I have already indicated, it appears to be the speech. attitude of the Liberal Party that the committee I have just quoted those two. system is not worth worrying about while in Government, but is highly desirable when in Op- While I do not intend changing my views, I position. would like to provide one more quote from that debate simply to demonstrate the amount of The matter was raised again by my ministerial interest displayed by the then Government on this colleague, the Hon. Joe Berinson, when speaking important question. On 4 May 1976. in his re- to the Address-in- Reply motion on I April 1981. 1 sponsc to that debate-and I quote from page 695 quote from page 378 of Hansard of that date of Hansard-the then Leader of the Government where the Hon. Joe Berinson said- had this to say- Allowing for all the conditions and limi- Miss McAleer raised a matter which has tations in the way of the comprehensive been under consideration and which has system of Standing Committees here, it ap- certainly been debated from time to time. I pears to me that there is still a very import- refer to the appointment of committees. The ant potential for Select Committee references honourable member is certainly within her on specific topics, on a much more frequent rights in expressing her views and nobody and deliberate basis than at present apply. would dispute that. However she will be There is no point in my suggesting a com- aware that the matter has had searching prehensive list of subjects which would be examination over a long period or time. I do amenable to organised inquiries in this not propose to express my support or Chamber. Our resources would be exhausted otherwise for what the honourable member long before the list. However, to give just has said; nor will I take such action in re- some examples of the sort of question which lation to the remarks made by anybody else would justify our concentrated attention in the course of this debate. rather than the periodic spasms which we So the Leader of the Government just wiped me now apply may I suggest the following- off like that, as much as to say that the fact that the proliferation of shopping centres Miss McAleer had a very good idea-expressed a and the novel burdens which lessors very democratic principle-and I supported it, are now imposing on lessees-many of [Tuesday, 23 August 1983]126 1269

them Ii nexperienced Hon. D. K. DANS: No, I am not leaving early businessmen. tonight. In his list of subjects which he considered That situation continues to be a burning issue to suitable for investigation by committees, the Hon. this day, more so than it was in 1976, and more so Joe Berinson went on to say- than it was in 1981. The Hon. Joe Berinson con- .. energy conservation programmes in tinued- Government departments and Public Service superannuation and its instrumentalities, and so on. interaction with other conditions applying to It will be immediately apparent that a the Public Service; number of the possibilities I have suggested Hon. 1. G. Medcalf: That is pretty relevant at are in areas which are often dealt with by the moment. way of inquiries conducted by persons who are outside the Parliament. Hon. D. K. DANS: Yes, and I will have a few words to say about that. Of course, with the Many such topics, however, raise essen- current furore raging over the tax on superannu- tially political questions on which the mem- ation and other matters, it is the sort of subject bers of the House would certainly be no less that could be inquired into by a Select Committee qualified than others to offer advice, and in or a Standing Committee of this House. The Hon. important respects, better qualified. Joe Berinson continued as follows- In many cases the Select Committee pro- cess could .. education, with particular reference to as- assist in the development of con- sensus recommendations. Even where they do pects such as the conflicting claims on staff- not do that, even where our party differences student ratios in this State and the ramifi- were reflected in recommendations, the dif- cations of the teachers' campaign for time off ferent approach would still have served the from classroom teaching: invaluable purpose of equipping its members While some of these problems may not be as im- with a certain level of expertise. That would portant now, some of them still remain, and I b 'in highly desirable contrast to the well- agree they would be very good subjects to be intentioned amateurism which we are so investigated by committees. often forced to apply under present circum- The next area which the Hon. Joe Berinson stances. suggested for investigation was preference to The effectiveness of the work engaged in unionists' provisions in industrial law. We all by the members of this Chamber is essen- know that the Hon. Gordon Masters did not put tially in the hands of the members on the that matter to a committee and he came up with other side. They are the majority. It must be the wrong answer. In fact, on that question, the they who are prepared to refer appropriate Hon. Gordon Masters did what no trade unionist items for committee consideration and to or any captain of industry has ever been able to provide such committees with their essential do-he united the whole trade union movement. supporting facilities. The Hon. Gordon Masters managed this without Only they can test whether the public the assistance of a committee, and he managed to interest would be better served in this way unite the employers also. than by the ritual forms which now consume Hon. G. E. Masters: Never mind, you're fixing so much of our time and energy. Speaking it up now! for myself, I have no reason to doubt that it would. Hon. D. K. DANS: Not only did he unite unionist with unionist and employer with em- Members of this Government support entirely any ployer, but also he united unionist with employer. such system which would further the effectiveness It was a magnificent example of how one man, of this Legslative Council as a House of Re- with a bit of grit and determination, could do view-something that has clearly been absent what others could not do. under the existing undemocratic laws for the elec- tion of members to this House. It is an indictment Not only did the Hon. Gordon Masters unite on this House that we and our predecessors have these people and get them to take unified action, been forced to discharge our duties under such but also he got them together in unity of purpose. conditions. I pose a question as to the reason for How much better might he have succeeded had he this sudden and urgent need to introduce a system had a committee to assist him? of Standing Committees after nine years of Lib- Hon. G. E. Masters: I hope you are not leaving eral Party-Country Party coalition Governments, early tonight. a period in which we as an Opposition Were ex- 1270 1210COUNCILI peeled to review legislation pushed through this it is necessary to service their electorates. It would Chamber with indecent haste and without regard appear it is a concession that they attend sittings to our limited numbers. Suggestions for more of Parliament! democratic methods of dealing with the business The honourable member's remarks were well of this House were then totally ignored. supported by the Hon. [an Pratt and the Hon. The present Opposition has more than twice the Tom Knight, and it is interesting to note that of number of members we had, but evidently it is not the Opposition members-incuding the Hon. experienced enough to do its job. The point 1 am Mick Gayfer and the Hon. Tom McNeil-16 of making is that we had to do our job for nine solid the 21 members are classed as country members. years with nine or 10 members and with no Select Hon. Peter Dowding: Including Mr Masters, Committees. The fact is that we did our job very presumably. well, and that is the reason we are on this side Hon. D. K. DANS: Excluding the President, now. the Opposition will be able to contribute four Hon. Robert Hetherington: Hear, hear! members to serve on any proposed Standing Com- Hon. D. K. DANS: I am reminded of a recent mittees. That is the only conclusion I can come to debate on another simple proposal to bring our after listening very carefully to the Hon. Mick sitting times into the twentieth century and the Gayfer: Only four city members will be available. outcry that occurred because this Government The other 16 will be out doing all the things that could even contemplate breaking with tradition. Mr Gayfer said they had to do, and I do not dis- However, we are now faced with the situation in pute what he had to say. If I take as being correct which a majority of members elected by a min- what Mr Gayfer had to say, members opposite ority of electors will no doubt have their way will have only four members to serve on these whether we like it or not. I can do little about that committees if the committees are to conduct their but express concern at certain aspects which the meetings at times other than the sitting times of members of the proposed Select Committee will the House. Notwithstanding the fact that Stand- need to consider and to give advice upon in its re- ing Orders preclude Select Committees meeting port to the House. during sitting times and also taking into account I refer principally to the composition of Stand- the very fine contribution of the Hon. Mick ing Committees-which may need the Gayfer in outlining to the House all the duties involvement of most of our members-and the that befall country members, we will be back to time available to participate in committee meet- just four members from the Opposition. ings. Apart from the restrictions attached to [Resolved:- That motions be continued.) Standing Orders, and particularly Standing Order Hon. 0. K. DANS: It will be a very hard row No. 350 which does not allow meetings during the to hoe for those four Opposition members. sittings of the House, there is a problem associ- Other points to be considered include the cost ated with country members, and that, as you of establishing committees and the provision of would be fully aware, Mr Deputy President (Hon. necessary staff facilities and resources. Noting D. J. Wordsworth) is something dear to the heart that circumstances favour members opposite, the of the present Opposition. We have heard so appointment of a Select Committee as envisaged much about it. As pointed out most forcibly in by the motion is a fait accompi. But if nothing this Chamber by the Hon. Nick Gayfer recently, else this will provide us with an opportunity to country members can serve in Parliament only on have a firm resolution adopted, as no doubt mem- Tuesdays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays, and then bers opposite will wish to participate in such a mainly in the evening and late afternoon. I an system and will Find the time necessary to do so. sure members will recall the Hon. Mick Gayfer making that statement just a few days ago. This is really the crunch. If members opposite can find the time necessary to participate in these Hon. H-. W. Gayfer: Are you suffering from a committes-and that means more than the four bit of sour grapes because South Fremantle lost? members Mr Gayfer managed to shave it down Hon. D. K. DANS: That was a very traumatic to-perhaps they can find the time to come to experieoce for me. Parliament at 2.15 p.m. on Tuesday afternoons On the occasion we debated the sitting hours of and 10.45 a.m. on Thursday mornings. Members this House, the Hon. Mick Gayfer said that the opposite cannot have it both ways. The argument balance of the country members' time on those advanced by the Opposition and excellently days is required to attend to accrued office backed up by the Hon. Mick Gayfer convinced business, party and committee meetings, and re- this Rouse of its merit; the House determined search on legislation. On the remaining four days that because of the propositions put to it by Oppo- [Tuesday, 23 August 1983] 127127 sition members, the hours advanced by the sition is very courageously advancing this pro- Government were not appropriate. Government posal, even though only four of its members will members accepted that; they had to. But if on the be available to be members of any committee set other hand members opposite are to turn all that up. Without declaring myself at this stage. I around again, I will have to scratch my head and would like to hear how the Opposition is to pro- ask: What is wrong and what is right? vide this House with the necessary personnel to Hon. 1. 0. Medcalf: You really do not want man these committees in view of the statements another debate on the hours, surely? made, particularly by the Hon. Mick Gayfer. There is validity in what he has said in that there Hon. D. K. DANS: Not just yet. are 16 country members out of a total of 21 mnem- Hon. Tom Knight: We were indicating that we bers opposite. were prepared to work at night. Members opposite might think it appropriate to Hon. D. K. SANS: I assure the Hon. Tom amend the Standing Order that prevents a com- Knight that we are very much prepared to work mittee sitting while the House is in session, be- at night time, daytime, and morning time; so, the cause if what Mr Gayfer and other Opposition member is giving us nothing. members said is correct, it will be a very hard row Hon. Tom Knight: You indicated that it was to to hoe for those four Opposition members ap- allow us to get home, but we said we did not have pointed to serve on any committees established. If homes to go to here and that we were here to members opposite find that those four members work. cannot handle the committees on their own and it Hon. D. K. SANS: I am sure the Hon. Tom becomes necessary to bring in country members, Knight can do better than that. we must accept that their electoral responsibilities will be neglected. That is the sum total of the Op- Hon. A. A. Lewis: I am sure you can do better position's arguments. than you are doing. HON. P. G. PENDAL (South Central Metro- Hon. D. K. SANS: While questioning the mo- politan) [5.37 p.m.]: I support the motion moved tives of the Opposition, it is necessary to indicate by the Leader of the Opposition and before I get that our involvement in any resultant proceedings on with the burden of my remarks I take this op- is essential if the proposal is to proceed. What I portunity to comment on same of the matters have been saying is this: We do not really oppose raised by the Leader of the House. I note in par- the setting up of committees. In fact, it is some- ticular that it is a pity he has adopted the attitude thing that was pushed into the Senate by the then he has,' particularly in so far as the accuracy of Senator Murphy. I am on record in Hansard as his comments is concerned. supporting the idea. Miss MvcAleer is on record as proposing such an idea. No doubt many other The Leader of the House made some consider- members of different political persuasions have able play of the remarks made in, I think. April put forward the idea also. As recently as 1981 the 1981 by the Hon. Joe Berinson, who was at the Hon. Joe Berinson proposed a similar idea, but on time a member of the Opposition. What Mr Dans that occasion it was rejected. Not only were the or his adviser forgets is that long before that- Opposition's proposals rejected, so too were the Hon. D. K. Dans: My adviser had nothing to do proposals put forward by Government members. with this. I happened to be in the House when Today we have a motion before us moved by those things occurred. the Leader of the Opposition to reverse all that, Hon. P. 0. PENDAL: By his interjection Mr notwithstanding the fact that Mr Gayfer proved Dants now accepts total responsibility for the mis- beyond any shadow of doubt in an earlier debate take he has made, because the sequence of events that the Opposition will have only four members is, as anyone who cares to check will ascertain, available to participate in any committee. I have that the matter was raised at the insistence of the known the Hon. Mick Gayfer for quite some time Hon. Bob Pike and was referred to a Select Com- and I know he is a man of extreme honesty and mittee of the House in late 1980, which action integrity, so his propositions put forward earlier subsequently led to the establishment of the could not be wrong. Standing Committee to which the Leader of the Hon. 1. G. Medcalf: You admit you were wrong Opposition referred and to which the Leader of about the hours of business? the House referred in passing. I-on. S. K. SANS: I do not. We accepted the Hon. D. K. Dans: Check Hansard again. will of the House. and the person who convinced Hon. P. G. PENDAL: Even if there is to be us even more than the Leader of the Opposition some dispute between the Leader of the House was the Hon. Mick Gayfer. But now the Oppo- and me on that point, on the next point there can 1272 1272[COUNCIL] be no dispute. I refer to the creation of the first parties, the back-benchers, to have the Govern- permanent and significant Standing Committee in ment of the day establish Select Committees. the entire history of this House, a Standing Com- The Hon. Sandy Lewis did this on several oc- mittee which came about at the insistence of a casions when he felt a need existed for a Select Liberal Party member while the Liberal-National Committees to inquire into national parks, or into Country Party Government was in office; of that youth, sport and recreation, or into other matters. there can be no dispute. A pity of this debate is Hon. Peter Dowding: Heavy committees. that it has now become a question of some form of one-upmanship. Hon. P. G. PENDAL: It may be that the Min- ister for Mines who now interjects finds those Hon. D. K. Dans: Why have you changed your subjects not important. mind? Hon. Peter Dowding: Not controversial. Hon. P. G. PENDAL: I will get to these mat- ters in a moment if only the Leader of the House Hon. P. G. PENDAL: They were important to will be patient. But the point must be clearly the members who saw a need for those Select understood: There is no validity in the claim made Committees. It is notable that one of the members by Mr Dans that there has been a great reversal on the Government benches now who took the in the attitude of the coalition parties towards the least amount of interest in any committee work subject under discussion, because that very im- was the present Minister for Mines. portant matter to which I have just referred oc- Hon. Peter Dowding: I was not invited to par- curred when a Liberal-National Country Party ticipate. Government was in office and when the Hon. Bob Hon. P. G. PENDAL: That is understandable. Pike pressed the issue. It was following these ef- At least it can be said that the Leader of the forts, which were predated by the efforts of the House has a track record of commitment to this Hon. John Williams, who now heads the Standing principle. It can also be admitted that the present Committee on Government Agencies and after Attorney General had some commitment to the the speech made by the Hon. Margaret McAleer parliamentary system by wanting to see a stronger and the speeches of several other Opposition committee system in operation on a permanent members as well, that the Standing Committee basis. He is on record as having taken the trouble was established. between 1980 and 1983 to research the matter The third point of which Mr Dans needs some and even to serve on the original Select Com- reminding is that he appears to have forgotten the mittee inquiring into Government agencies and on different functions of a Standing Committee and the original Standing Committee established after of a Select Committee. I moved a motion in this House about 18 months Hon. D. K. Dans: I am fully aware of the dif- ago. ferent functions. Hon. Peter Dowding: Did that investigate legis- Hon. P. G. PENDAL: Then the Leader of the lation? House is hoist with his own petard, because the Hon. P. G. PENDAL: That shows another record shows that between 1980 and 1983 not just fundamental ignorance on the part of the Minis- one Select Committee was established by this ter because we do not merely have Standing Com- House-the impression given by the Leader of the mittees to look at narrow parts of the House's ac- House is that there was none-but in fact prob- tivities. ably more Select Committees were set up in that Hon. Peter Dowding: I know why you don't three-year period than in any other comparable want to answer the question. period in the history of the Parliament. Five or six Hon. P. G. PENDAL: Indeed, if the Minister Select Committees were established in that three- for Mines cared to update some of his knowledge, year period. particularly in respect of some of the thinking Hon. Fred McKenzie: None was established to that has come out of the British Parliament in re- examine legislation. cent years and other Parliaments around the Hon. P. G. PENDAL: I will come to that. world, he would find that there is a great range of On that third point alone Mr Dans has,' perhaps activities upon which party committees can con- unwittingly, misled the House, because in that centrate, scrutinise, and report to the House. three-year period many Select Committees were Committees do not need to relate merely to legis- set up, at the very time when the Liberal-National lation, as he suggested by interjection. Country Party represented a majority coalition in Hon. Peter Dowding: They do not do either this Chamber in Government. Therefore it took under a Liberal Government in the upper House, the persuasive powers of members of the coalition dlothey? [Tuesday, 23 August 1983])27 1273

Hon. R C. PENDAL: From my own point of I ask members to bear in mind whether there view I am happy to support the motion moved by might not be some parallel with this House. the Leader or the Opposition and indeed even to Referring to the House of Representatives, the support some of the remarks made by the Leader article continues- or the House because I observed 18 months ago when I moved the motion to commence the per- All of its legislative work is still conducted manent scrutiny by way of the Standing Com- in plenary session where party contests and mittee on Government Agencies, that it should party discipline are strongest and where con- not be the only Standing Committee. I interpolate flict and bitterness are intensified by exten- here to say that I take no great personal credit for sive use of procedural devices such as the gag that because the work was largely done by people and the guillotine. Ninety-nine per cent of all to whom I have already referred, such as Bob legislation is initiated by the Executive Pike, John Williams, Margaret McAleer, and Government (private member legislation is others. I happened to be in the right place at the infrequent) and in spite of an average of right time. The point I made on that occasion was about 100 bills each year not one bill in sev- that I would be disappointed if the Standing enty-seven years has ever been referred by Committee on Government Agencies were to be the House to a smaller committee for its the end of the line and I argued as persuasively as committee stage. There is a gross congestion I knew how to call the House's attention to the of the parliamentary timetable and a conse- need in the short and medium term for us to be quent diminution in MPs' effectiveness and looking at other forms of scrutiny by way of per- public esteem. manent parliamentary committees. Hon. Peter Dowding: We have not noticed it To some extent those people who have put their here, Mr Pendal. faith in those ideas in the past have seen some of Hon. P. G. PENDAL: I wish the Minister their dreams come true, because Mr Medcalf's would shut up and listen. I would be the first to move in this respect is a natural follow-on to what suggest that a strong parallel exists between what happened in the 1980-1983 Parliament, which Professor Reid was saying about the House of saw the appointment of the Select Committee and Representatives in February 1980 and what could then, the establishment of the Standing Com- be said about this or other Houses of Parliament, mittee. The Hon. Ian Medcalf's move now gives around Australia. us the opportunity to take that second important Hon. Peter Dowding: That is ridiculous. That is step towards-if 1 may say it without offending absurd. people-broadening the horizons of our members and making the Parliament a more vigorous Hon. P. G. PENDAL: I put it to members that forum. comments of that nature by Professor Reid bear a lot of thinking and deserve some consider- Hon. Peter Dowding: Only when you are in Op- ation. Further, I put it to the House that to im- position. plement what Mr Medcalf is now suggesting may Hon. P. 0. PENDAL: In March or 1980 Pro- well help reduce some of the ignorance shown by fessor Gordon Reid, a Western Australian, com- some of the interjectors so far. Perhaps more im- mented in that month's issue of Quadrant. He portantly, the implementation of this proposal spoke about some of the shortcomings in the would help reduce some of the bitterness and div- House of Representatives in the Federal sphere. It ision that sometimes is apparent in the debates in is important for people to remember that Pro- this Chamber. A good example of the strength of fessor Cordon Reid is not merely an eminent aca- that argument is the Standing Committee on demic in his field, he is also a person who had Government Agencies itself. In respect of what some personal experience as an officer ofsthe Fed- members of that committee can or cannot agree eral Parliament prior to embarking on what was upon, I think it is fair to say that all members of to be a distinguished academic career. With that the committee, whether they be-Liberal. Labor, or dual background in mind he had this to say when National Country Party-prior to Mr Baxter's re- he was drawing on his experience about the lower tirement-would agree that the committee has House of Federal Parliament- been able to go about its work and on most oc- Unlike the Senate, the House of Represen- casions make recommendations with a complete tatives, notwithstanding the vast increase in absence of any bitterness, division, or one- its formal responsibilities since its creation in upmanship and point scoring that we often find 1901, has barely changed its method of oper- on the floor of this House. If nothing else, the ation. move of Mr Medcalf will achieve that. 1274 1274[COUNCIL]

Hon. Peter Dowding: Come on! Grow up! Why tiously, that the Standing Committee system didn't you say it last year when you were in somehow or other usurped the role of the House. Government? ]I was an argument that I never accepted, but it Hon. P. G. PENDAL: I wish the Minister was held in all good conscience by some people. would shut up. But it is not only a question of helping to over- The PRESIDENT: Order! come any sort of prejudice against these com- mittees from members within this House. I put it Hon. Peter Dowding: You suddenly had some to the House that we also have the problem of about it after the election, did you? time to think overcoming the prejudice against this sort of Hon. P. G. PEN DAL: I am talking about the Standing Committee from within the Public Ser- Standing Committee on Government Agencies vice. Public servants, particularly senior ones, in itself. matters of this kind have their thinking very much Hon. Peter Dowding: Why didn't you establish moderated or shaped by their own Ministers be- another one last year? cause, after all, it is their Ministers who are mem- Hon. P. G. PEN DAL: I wish we could establish bers of Parliament and who are in a position of another committee to get rid of the Minister for having in-built prejudice or bias towards anything Mines. That would show a lot of progress on our that will upgrade the significance of the Parlia- part. People like Mr Berinson, Mr Hetherington. ment- In fact, most members of the House will Mr Baxter- have to come to grips with this fact over the years: public servants themselves will have to be per- Hon. Neil Oliver: Mr Tonkin? suaded towards the idea that the Standing Com- Hon. P. G. PENDAL: I am talking about mittee system is as good for them as it is for the members of this House. Those men were able to Parliament or the members who comprise the display a sense of unity of purpose without being Parliament. I suggest that that in-built prejudice corny about it- will not be overcome in a short time. Like Minis- Hon. Peter Dowding: Sounds like a creepy- ters, some of those senior public servants see this crawly to me! development as a slight on their professionalism Hon. P. G. PENDAL: -and to bring down or their competence, but nevertheless, it is one unanimous recommendations in that Standing that they could be persuaded to accept. Cornmi ttee. The Select Committee will have to ensure that Hon. Peter Dowding: You were in Government the recommendations that come back to this for nine years and you didn't do this. This has just House are practical and capable of being im- suddenly occurred to you, has it? plemented within the confines of the available re- sources. Hon. A. A. Lewis: You have heard the answer to that. Hon. Peter Dowding: And suspend Government policy. Is that one of the criteria? Hon. P. G. PENDAL: The Select Committee set up by Mr Medcalf's motion will result in some Hon. A. A. Lewis: What rot! good coming out of the whole thing. Hon. Tom Knight: You could get up and speak. Several members interjected. Hon. Peter Dowding: You want to use the The PRESIDENT: Order! numbers. That is why you didn't bring it up last year. Hon. P. G. PENDAL: Again some of the interjections would indicate, just as some of the Hon. Tom Knight: Why don't you get up and comments that were made during the lead-up to talk about it later? the establishment of the Standing Committee on Hon. P. G. PENDAL: It is surprising that the Government Agencies clearly showed-Mr Dans Minister interjecting is the Minister who per- is quite correct-that that concept which was formed least of the activity in this regard in those shared by a number of members at the time, first three years. That speaks for itself, but I certainly a majority or enough to have it passed, suggest Select Committees will have to be careful was not necessarily shared by all members of the on this point of resources. House. I remember being criticised at the time by Hon. Peter Dowding: Why didn't you take members of my own party who, in good faith, pre- another look at gambling last year? the value in either Select sumably, could not see The PRESIDENT: Order! Committees or, certainly, Standing Committees. Whether they could have been persuaded to the Hon. Tom Knight: There was a committee. contrary in the meantime, I do not know, but Hon. Peter Dowding: Was there? Of the certainly they held a view, presumably conscien- House? Grow up! [Tuesday, 23 August 1983] 127517

The PRESIDENT: Order! Hon. A. A. Lewis: Do you want to tempt us? Hon, P. G. PEN DAL: Mr Dans has carefully Hon. P. 0. PEN DAL: -and to that extent, the touched on that, although I do not accept his Select Committee must be realistic, and in my op- suggestion that only four members of the Oppo- inion it must choose those areas that are most ap- sition will be available. propriate for us to scrutinise on a permanent Hon. D. K. Dans: That is what Mr Gayfcr said basis; otherwise we wilt ind the old story of last week. spreading the resources too thinly across a wide lion. P. G. PENDAL: I will even disagree with range of interest areas and probably getting very Mr Gayfer. Does that make the Minister feel any little result for the taxpayers! dollars. better? We are trying to have a decent debate. I would suggest also, in establishing the criteria Hon. D. K. Dans: Mr Gayfer was telling fibs for permanent Standing Committees of the Par- last week? liament, the Select Committee ought to look at the point of not competing against any Standing IHon. P. 0. PENDAL: We need to have pres- that the lower House of this Parlia- ented to the House recommendation that are Committee way capable of being implemented within the confines menit has in existence. It would be a fruitless to spend the taxpayers' money merely to duplicate of not only the resources or members of Parlia- ment who may ultimately serve on future com- the work being done in that House. mittees, but also the resources under the Throughout this debate, and indeed, in the de- jurisdiction of you, Mr President, and the Clerk. bates that took place between 1980 and 1983, fre- Hon. Robert Hetherington: Treasury resources. quent reference was made to the Legislative Re- view and Advisory Committee. Hon. P. G. PEN DAL: I will accept that. I other words, it is no good coming back with a re- Hon. Peter Dowding: But Mr Pendal, you commendation that we have a constitutional af- didn't take this position last year. What was fains committee, a scrutiny of Bills committee, or wrong with you? a public accounts committee, and all those other The PRESIDENT: Order! orthodox committees which are set up in Parlia- Hon. 0. E. Masters:- He is just playing to the ments around the world. We simply do not have gallery--don't worry about it. He will be quiet the resources to cope. later on. Hon. Peter Dowding: Liberals who vote for Hon. P. G. PENDAL: I challenge Mr Dowding public accounts committees get into trouble. on this point. As a Minister of the Crown, he Silting suspended from 6.00 to 7.30 p. m. seems to be taking a great interest now in a mat- Hon. P. G. PENDAL: Before the tea suspen- ter which he ignored totally while he was on the sion, I was attempting to make the point that if back bench. the Select Committee is appointed, if nothing else, H-on. Peter Dowding: It is a matter you ignored it ought to be realistic in the recommendation totally while you were in Government-that is that it brings before the House, and I mean re- more to the point. bring back rec- alistic in the sense that it must The PRESIDENT: Order! ommendations that are capable of being im- plemented within the confines of the resources Hon. P. G. PEN DAL: I challenge the Minister available to this House both by way of members for Mines to produce a reference in Hansard of and support staff, and, as the Hon. Robert the last three years where I have said anything in- H-etherington interjected, by way of finance. consistent with what I am saying now. It may well be that collectively the House Hon. Peter Dowding: Your party did not say would like to see a constitutional affairs com- this last year. mittee, an expenditure review committee, an en- Hon. P. G. PEN DAL: I happened to have been vironment standing committee, or more scrutiny a member of the Select Committee that on the natural resources of this State. The fact is, recommended the establishment of the Standing however, that we have a relatively small House- Committee on Government Agencies. Hon. Peter Dowding: It is going to get smaller Hon. Peter Dowding: Big deal! with a bit of luck, too. Hon. P. G. PEN DAL: As a result of that, I was Hon. W. N. Stretch: The quicker you leave the appointed a member of that Standing Committee. better. If the Minister thinks my actions between 1980 Hon. Peter Dowding: See if you are prepared to and 1983 are not consistent with the stance I am knock that one back. taking tonight, I suggest, as 1 said earlier, that he 1276 1276[COUNCIL) does not understand what we are debating advisory committee. If nothing else, that would tonight. achieve the objective of ensuring that the activi- Hon. Peter Dowding: Did you move this in your ties of the Legislative Review and Advisory Com- party room last year, or did it slip your memory? mittee are not ignored conveniently or forgotten by this House or by another place. Hon. P. G. PENDAL: In the first three years of the Minister's presence in this House, he was Hon. Peter Dowding: Are you suggesting they one of the few members in this party who took no have been before? interest in the subject whatsoever. Hon. P. G. PEN DAL: Yes, they may well have Hon. Peter Dowding: You were in Government, been. and you did not debate this motion last year. Hon. Peter Dowding: Over the last nine years What was wrong with you? of Liberal Government? H-In. P. G. PEN DAL: I made the point, before Hon. P. G. PEN DAL: They may well have the Minister for Mines interjected-and his been ignored. interjections tonight, strung together, would con- Hon. Peter Dowding: What were you doing in stitute a 20-minute speech in themselves- the joint party parliamentary committee room at Hon. G. E. Masters: They would not make that stage? much sense though. Hon. P. G. PENDAL: That has taken the wind Hon. P. 0. PENDAL: I referred to the Legis- out of the Minister's sails. I am prepared to admit lative Review and Advisory Committee which was that the recommendations of the Legislative Re- established by the previous Government as a non- view and Advisory Committee may well have parliamentary committee. I might say that that been ignored. was a decision with which I disagreed. I was a Hon. Peter Dowding: Well, come on, you had back-bench member of the previous Government time enough to study it. and I said publicly that I disagreed with what that Hon. P. G. PENDAL: I do not know the Government did in constituting the Legislative answer to that, but I put it to the House that Review and Advisory Committee as a non-parlia- there is some validity in the suggestion that either mentary committee. If I recall correctly, it had as the committee be reformed as a committee of the its inaugural chairman, Professor Gordon Reid. Parliament, or at the very least that a new and The current chairman is the former Speaker of permanent Standing Committee of the Parliament the Legislative Assembly. Sir Ross Hutchinson. be appointed to scrutinise the reports and Hon. Peter Dowding: You blokes must go to recommendations of the Legislative Review and sleep when you are in Government. You know you Advisory Committee. never raised these things then. Some time ago-and I believe it was on your Hon. G. E. Masters: How would you know? return from a presiding officers' conference, Mr You have never been here. President-there was circulated some information Hon. A. A. Lewis: You are seldom here while a of the most recent Senate committee which, I Minister, let alone while you were in Opposition. think, was referred to as the Senate committee on Hon. P. G. PENDAL: I placed on record pre- the scrutiny of Bills. Some information was circu- viously my reasons for believing that the Legislat- lated by the officers of the House- ive Review and Advisory Committee ought not to Hon. Garry Kelly: Which the Government have been a non-parliamentary committee as it ignored! was constituted by the previous Government. I Hon. P. G. PENDAL: I wish Government made clear my objections in that regard and, members would be a little careful in what they therefore, I do not intend to repeat them again say because this information was circulated only tonight. However, in my opinion, the Select Com- four weeks ago and if it has been ignored the mittee may well find it-fruitful to look at the work member's colleagues are at fault. of the Legislative Review and Advisory Com- Hon. Garry Kelly: I lost that one! mittee with the following objective in mind! The Select Committee might consider recommending Hon. P. G. PENDAL: Even 1, at my most criti- that that committee be disbanded and reformed cal, would not expect the Government to have as a parliamentary committee, or that it might re- done anything about that report in the last four main in its current statutory form with the pro- weeks. vision that a least a permanent committee of this Hon. Peter Dowding: You would have to be tol- Parliament be appointed to it to study in detail erant-you were in power for nine years and did the recommendations of the non-parliamentary nothing about it. [Tuesday, 23 August 1983]127 1277

Several members interjected. list of clauses that need more consideration during Hon. Peter Dowding: You have been there too, the Committee stage of the Bill. Again that is im- Mr Ferry, and did nothing about it, so you can't portant in order that the Government of the day talk. At least Mr Pendal said he disagreed with does not have its rights and prerogatives taken the Government. away or, put another way, the right of the lion. V. i. Ferry: Don't wave your pencil at me, Government of the day to go to hell in its own old chap! way is protected. Hon. P. G. PEN DAL: As members are aware, Mr Deputy President (Hon. D. J. the new scrutiny of Bills committee established by Wordsworth), in the final part of my comments I the Senate is, as I understand it, looking at two would like to refer at some length to the main areas of concern within the upper House of the issue of The Australian Law Journal of May of Federal Parliament. The first is any legislation this year which dealt with the quality and the that might trespass unduly on personal rights and quantity of legislation, before the British Parlia- liberties, and the second is any legislation that ment, although obviously it is a matter that has might inappropriately delegate the Parliament's some relevance to all Australian Parliaments. legislative powers. It is not without some irony or Certainly this journal saw some value in repro- significance that the first of the terms of reference ducing the material. of the Senate committee on the scrutiny of I shall quote several extracts from it. At page Bills-that is, legislation that might trespass on 255 the article refers to the former Federal At- people's personal rights and liberties-was one of torney General (Senator Peter Durack) who com- the major criteria of the Legislative Review and mented on "the colossal growth in recent years in Advisory Committee that was established by the the volume and complexity of legislation". My Court Government as a non-parliamentary body reason for quoting this, as it may seem to mem- several years ago. bers to have no connection with the motion before Hon. Peter Dowding: What year was that? the House, is the hope that, if the Select Com- Hon. P. G. PENDAL: It was after the 1974 mittee is appointed, it will address itself to some election. I think the legislation was introduced of the issues raised in The Australian Law into this House in 1975. Journal of May this year. The article and the re- Hon. Peter Dowding: And what has it been ports coming out of the United Kingdom opened doing since then? up a new vista of areas to which a Parliament should properly address itself. Hon. P. 0. PENDAL: The Minister should know because only the other day he tabled the re- The journal refers to a number of areas which I port of this committee. will be the first to admit I have never thought of before. Because I think they are possibly quite Hon. Peter Dowding: That is right, a report novel and do not necessarily follow many of the which your Government ignored. traditional arguments we have heard up to this Hon. P. G. PENDAL: I presume, knowing the stage in this debate, the proposed Select Com- full details of it, the Minister- mittee could do a lot worse than take them into Hon. G. E. Masters: He would not even know account. the title. The journal goes on to refer to debates which Hon. P. G. PEN DAL: Information about this were taking place in the House of Lords and, in Senate committee was contained in the circular to particular, a debate that was opened by Lord members and it was stated that the new Senate Renton. The article read as fol lows- committee itself does not pass any definitive ... he called attention to the volume of legis- judgment or make any value judgments on legis- lation, including statutory instruments, to the lation before the Senate. So from that point of desirability of repealing statutes which had view it cannot be argued that it is taking away the "outlived" their purpose or had become right of the Government of the day to determine un- policy. That has been used as a valid argument in necessary, and to the need to achieve yet the past where the Government of the day-of more improvement in the quality of legis- whichever political colour-is denied the right to lation. implement those policy items to which it has some In the past we have heard a good deal in this commitment. In this case the role of the Senate Chamber, this Parliament, and Australia gener- Standing Committee on the scrutiny of Bills, as I ally about the quality of legislation, and perhaps understand it, is merely to alert the Senate to a we have not heard so much about the quantity of range of possible problems and to provide a check legislation. 1278 1278[COUNCIL]

Here is this eminent figure-I take him to be I for one would commend that to the proposed such if he has been quoted by The Australian Select Committee. Law Journal-uggesting that is something which I would dearly love to see legislation come be- should be looked at. fore this House, regardless of which Government Hon. Peter Dowding: I get quoted in there too, is in office, chat I have some chance of under- you know. standing in detail and, hearing in mind the com- Hon. P. G. PENDAL: We look forward to the ments I have just quoted, hopefully it should not contain too much detail. Minister for Mines bringing forward legislation which is consistent with what Lord Renton had to The article continued- say. The article went on to say- Ifr our Acts of Parliament cannot be under- In the last eighteen years, there had been a stood even by clever experts it not only brings "relentless" growth of legislation at a rate of the law into contempt, it brings Parliament over 2 000 pages a year of Statutes at Large into contempt. in the United Kingdom, no lerss than 2 816 Again there is a lesson to be learnt from that. pages being added in 1980. There was be- Hon. Peter Dowding: There is a feeling of deja sides the great length of the statutes, while vu about those remarks. there were about 14000 statutory Hon. P. G. PENDAL: The Minister should instruments in force. listen and perhaps he will learn something. Lord Renton then said- Hon. Peter Dowding: You will recall that was Besides repealing clearly spent and obsol- exactly what we said last year. ete laws each year- Hon. P. G. PENDAL: I have heard Mr Perhaps that is something to which we should pay Berinson refer to it and 1 agree with him. He has more attention. To continue- been able to debate the matter quite rationally, -should we not get rid of statutes, some which is a bit more than the Minister for Mines is which were passed in our lifetime and are able to do. taken for granted, which experience has now On page 256 of the same journal Lord Deanning shown to be unenforceable, ineffective, un- put forward his views "as to the desirable criteria workable, or even socially damaging. to be observed by statutes". He said- That perhaps opens up the debate and makes its It comes to this, that language ought to be scope a little wider than the area to which we con- simple and clear. fined it from 1980 to 1983 when this matter was In the past we have heard explanations in this under discussion. Chamber and elsewhere that the very act of law- Lord Renton continued to talk about the style making makes it almost impossible to use simple and quality of legislation and is reported as fol- words, and yet here is one of the foremost, emi- lows- nent British authorities saying that language oughtL to be simple and clea r. Hec went on to say- Lord Renton went on to attack the excess- There ought to be not long but short sen- ive detail of British legislation... tences. There should be a few commas and That rings a few bells around this place and it can semi-colons in sentences. There should be be a criticism of this Government and previous simple words. There should not be too much Governments, because on many occasions in this detail. One of the troubles is that with the House 1 have heard people of all political per- best of motives the draftsmen- suasions say that, in its sheer detail, legislation is I ask members to bear this in mind. To con- too complex even for the legislators to understand tinue- half the time and frequently criticism is even -try to think of every contingency ... It is made that the experts in the law courts and so on impossible to think of everything that will have trouble with it. happen in the future. All this ought to be in Lord Renton attacked the excessive: detail of simple language expressing principles. British legislation which led to "complexity, ob- I for one am very encouraged to hear someone of scurity and uncertainty". The article continued- the stature of Lord Denning make comments of He declared that brevity is possible, and that nature, because they tend to bear out what endorsed the recent plea of Sir John ordinary members of Parliament-if 1 may de- Donaldson M.R. that priority should be given scribe them in that way-have pleaded for in the to clarity and simplicity of expression. past; that is, if we are to be asked to make laws [Tuesday, 23 August 1983]127 1279 for the well-being of this State, at least let those perhaps we should try to understand what Parlia- laws be in a form in which they can be under- ment is about. stood. It is possible that might mean one of the I refer members to an article which appeared in recommendations of a Standing Committee could The Parliamentarian of April 1983. It relates to relate to simplifying legislation. The idea is not the Canadian Parliament and reads as follows- quite as audacious as one would think when one takes into account what this man has said in The arguments for specific reforms are terms of British legislation. based upon one's understanding of the pur- pose of Parliament. For some, Parliament is I return to the starting point: This motion en- primarily an institution for law-making. Its tails taking one more tentative step along the path problems therefore emanate from Parliamen- upon which we set out about I8 months ago as a tarian's frustration in the face of the execu- result of the Select Committee which rec- tive and the bureaucracy. ommended the creation of the Standing Corn- mittee on Government Agencies. The way in Perhaps that explains the nine-year lag. To con- which that committee has worked over the last 12 tintie- months has shown that, regardless of their politi- Reform of the legislative function involves cal persuasions, members are able to meet in a co- changes to the confidence convention, more operative atmosphere away from this Chamber free votes and stronger committees, all of and bring forward worthwhile, bipartisan rec- which increase the role of the individual ommendations. Member of Parliament. If the step we take by, hopefully, supporting Others see Parliament's primary purpose this motion goes anywhere near achieving what as a public forum where the actions of the that Standing Committee has achieved in a very Government are scrutinized. The suggestions short time, the period we have spent debating the for change in the methods of examining de- matter today and in recent weeks will be time well partmental estimates and requiring a govern- spent. I hope, Sir, the concept that Mr Medcalf ment response to committee reports are has explained will get the full support of the examples of the type of reform which should House and I certainly give it mine. improve the effectiveness of this forum. HON. JOHN WILLIAMS (Metropolitan) Parliament is also a representative (7.55 pi.m.]: Perhaps Ilam one of the few members institution in which individual Members have of the House who, as was mentioned by the opportunities to raise matters of particular Leader of the House, has supported the establish- relevance to their constituents. Reforms in ment of a Select Committee system throughout this area include changes in the way private my period in the House, which commenced in Members' business is organized, giving them 197 1. If the question is asked: What did we do in greater opportunity to voice local concerns.. the last nine or 12 years-remembering we had two different Governments during that The purpose of parliamentary procedure is time-perhaps the answer should be, "Some of us to enable a democratic assembly to operate were niot believed as to the reason and need for effectively and fairly. it is designed to protect committees". the rights of all Members, and in particular Hon. Peter Dowding: You can understand that their right to freedom of speech. It should in some cases. permit the House to reach decisions on the Hon. JOHN WILLIAMS: Mr Dowding issues before it, while allowing all sections of amazes me; he epitomises that old axiom that opinion to be heard. It should provide the although a man may have gone to Hale School machinery whereby the Government must and university, education is no barrier to ignor- account to the House for all its actions, ance. measures, and policies. As time is a limited Hon. P. H. Lockyer: I could not have put it bet- commodity, parliamentary procedure should ter myself. ensure that the time available for parliamen- tary business is used as effectively and as Hon. JOHN WILLIAMS: In looking at the fairly as possible. need, as mentioned by the Leader of the Oppo- sition, for this Select Committee to examine the If existing procedures fail in any of these possible appointment of committees of the House, objectives, there is clearly a need for reform. it should be pointed out that there is abroad a That reform is now very apparent, not just in the great move for Parliaments to reform their pro- Canadian Parliament whence that article ema- cedures. If we intend to reform our procedures, nated, but also in the House of Commons at 1280 1280[COUNCIL]

Westminster. We have always prided ourselves The added attraction of these committees is that the Westminster Houses of Parliament are that members would have a greater chance to par- the mother of Parliaments, including this one. ticipate in the operations of the Parliament. Our However, if one were to go now to that august present method of government is now ancient, and assembly one would be amazed by the change it is wrong. As long as I have been here I have be- that has come over the place in the past three lieved it to be wrong. Power should not reside years. Now the problem in that House is to get with the Executive or the bureaucracy, it should members to stay, because the original I I com- reside in the Houses of Parliament from whence it mittees set down in 1792 have been increased to emanated. Instead of backbench members feeling 25 separate committees of back-benchers. In fact, like a small appendage of the Parliament or 300 back-benchers are involved. When the corn- having to run around at the behest of their mas- mittes were selected, the party Whips, the Minis- ters or Cabinet Ministers, backbenchers could try, and the Leader of the Opposition had nothing take a full and proper part in the designing of the to say in their appointment; they were appointed State they would like to see in their future years by back & less benchers. It is significant to note and to be available for generations to come. that during the period of the last Government in I hope the proposed Select Committee will con- that House more than 60 per cent of the com- sider the 25 committees of the House of Com- mittee chairmen came from the Opposition. Great mons, and perhaps it will come to the opinion that concern has been expressed about the lack of de- those 25 committees would suit us perfectly well. bate on the floor of that House, and a lack of at- An example of those committees are those which tendance by members because nearly 300 mem- relate to agriculture, education, science, the arts, bers are concerned daily with committee work. employment, energy, the environment, industry It may astonish members of this House to learn and trade, social services, transport, the Treasury, the amount of work done by those committees. and the Civil Service. It has been found that not They examine the policies of departments and only do parliamentarians benefit from these com- interview and examine under secretaries and Min- mittees but also, according to the article at page isters of the Crown. They make short reports to 57 of the journal for parliamentarians to which I their colleagues, reports which enable the work of have referred, civil servants have discovered sud- the House to flow so much more freely than it denly for themselves a new role-a complete en- ever did before. One needs only to consider the meshment-with members of Parliament under- procedurcs adopted in this House compared with standing far better the role of the public servant, those adopted in the House of Commons: Here we something which has been lost in this State over have the first and second readings of a Bill and the last 10 years, and with public servants under- then the House goes into the Committee of the standing the role of the parliamentarians. It is not Whole. In the House of Commons, unless the a question of the public servant doing exactly matter before it be the Budget or something of what his Minister has told him to do, but rather a that nature. specialised committees meet in the question of his ensuring that the policy dictated to committee rooms to proceed with the Committee him is carried out. stage of the Bill as we know it and recommen- One could have been enchanted with the Cabi- dations are sent to the floor of the House. net system, which worked perfectly well in the This procedure would assist Mr Gayfer and eighteenth and nineteenth centuries when com- other members in the boat of country represen- munication was a problem; but it is now time to tation. The English Parliament sits on each day look at the Cabinet system in our modern society, from Monday to Friday, but works for three a system that with improved communications can weeks and then has two weeks off. make decisions and move quickly, and so much so Perhaps the proposed Select Committee for this that under a new system the Cabinet might up- House will consider a complete reorganisation of date itself in order to be similar to a board of an our sitting times to the extent that they would be industrial organisation. spaced out something akin to the spacing of the The work that will be the charge of this com- sittings of the Federal Parliament. Such a pro- mittee will be onerous, although we know from cedure might not suit us initially, but it would as- certain pre-conditions laid down that the com- sist greatly in getting through the massive amount mittee will have to report quickly. If the House of work that we have and decreasing the number adopts the recommendations made and the com- of amendments we must move to legislation, to mittee does its work properly, we might witness adjust errors which seem to slip into this House something else happen, and that might be the dis- from time to time. appearance of the bitterness, enmity and, some- (Tuesday, 23 August 1983]128 1281 times, hatred that exists between members of Par- Hon. MARGARET McALEER: I am straying liament-all wrongly placed. from the point only becuse the Hon. John I have the right to stand in my place in this Williams before us made many speeches about a Chamber to expound my beliefs and the policies committee system, speeches from which we all in which I believe. Members opposite have an benefited greatly. When I spoke in my turn in equal right to defend and put forward the policies 1976 1 looked upon myself as carrying forward and propositions in which they firmly believe. the work done in another House, as the Hon. Ian Sadly, over the last three years for certain, and Medcalf has pointed out already, the work already carried out by Arthur Bickerton as the perhaps for the three years before that period, de- originator of the idea in Western Australia. terioration of the system has set in. Certainly Arthur Tonkin also had much to say on If a member supports a particular party he the subject. could become a man with whom others should not The Hon. Des Dans said quite truly that he did associate. We have witnessed the spectacle in the not expect changes to be made in a day, in a corridors of this Parliament of it not being the week, or a month-all good things take time to done thing for a member to talk with a member of happen. his opposition. That has been petty childishness The Hon. Phil Pendal pointed out very welt based on the proposition that debate could not be that in the course of time all the interest that limited to the Chamber but had to be carried on members have shown came together and we Were outside, and that has been to the detriment of the successful in having appointed a Select Com- Parliament. The Leader of this House would tell mittee to investigate the appointment of a particu- members that when he and I arrived in this Par- lar Standing Committee, which was formed and is liament some of the best lessons we ever learnt functioning now. Perhaps it is true that the best were learnt outside the Chamber, in the corridors, days are yet to come for that committee because by talking with every member of the Parliament it is still getting into its full stride. There are without the fear of somebody else reporting that always backbenchers in every Parliament where a we were seen talking to our opposition. What a committee system is tried--eminent backbenchers heinous crime! It is the sort of attitude that a sen- have not believed in it because they have thought, sible working system would eliminate. The trouble and probably quite rightly in their own eases, that with the whole of Australia today is the polaris- they could do better work for their c6nstituents ation of groups by the misunderstanding deliber- and the country by staying outside the committee ately fostered by some sections of the media for system in order to work on their own. the benefit of increased sales. It is commonly said that Oppositions, in par- I assure the Leader of the House-this would ticular, favour the committee system, and no come as no surprise to him-that I fully support doubt that is true. It is true also that all the proposition of the Leader of the Opposition backbenchiers feel drawn to the committee system. that a Select Committee inquire into these mat- Professor Gordon Reid, whose words have been so ters. For once I am able to stand in this place to much quoted in this debate, as they are quoted say quite honestly that I believe reforms should be elsewhere when this subject is raised, views the instituted within this House, and say that Without committee system as one way in which the Parlia- some penalty being attached to my remarks be- ment can assist the Executive to scrutinise the cause, perhaps, they do not suit the theories of bureaucracy because it is so vast and no small some politicians. body of men, even Ministers with the assistance available to HON. MARGARET McALEER (Upper West) them, can be expected to carry out that scrutiny. In addition, committee systems are 18.10 p.m.]: I rise to support the motion, but will often employed to scrutinise the work of the do so briefly because the subject has been can- Executive-the Cabinet itself. All sorts of combi- vassed extremely well. nations and permutations are possible within the From the remarks made by the lion. Des Dans committee system. While a number of them have it is clear I have been a supporter for a long time been canvassed tonight, many have not, and that of the committee system. Unfortunately it was is why we are considering the establishment of a clear also from his remarks that I was a rather Select Committee to investigate all the various poor and inept advocate of the committee system forms of committees that may be suitable for our all those years ago, but might I say that perhaps House. the Hon. Des Dans was that himself. One point is important for this House to re- Hon. D. K. Dans: We didn't win the day. We member: Whatever Standing Committees are de- were both put down. termined to be suitable for this House we should 1282 1282[COUNCIL] remain flexible in OUr thinking about the com- hers who voted with me on that occasion were the mittee system. With all good fortune we will try Hon. N. E. Baxter, the Hon. A. A. Lewis, the what is recommended by the Select Committee, Hon. W. M. Piesse and the Hon, Tom McNeil. but there is no need to suppose that will be the The ranks had grown somewhat. Later in that de- end of all things. We will develop the system and bate an adjournment of the debate was moved as we will change our minds. So long as we remain a parliamentary ploy and only four members flexible in OUr thinking we will be all the more voted against the adjournment, which showed that successful. I had lost ranks. The members who voted for the Before I sit down I must say that country mem- Ayes on that occasion were the Hon. N. E. bers are much maligned in regard to sitting hours, Baxter. the H-on. Tom McNeil, The Hon. W. M. a point raised by the Hon. Des Dans. The think- Piesse and myself. Of the 25 members who voted ing of country members in trying to retain some with the Noes, thus allowing the debate to con- time during the weeks of sitting is with the hope tinue, the presence of D. K. Dans was notable. in mind of having a more developed committee I can say only that my views in this House re- system, and the knowledge that unless they can main consistent and that is something to live up keep some time free there will not be any time at to. all for committees to sit. I support the motion. I intend to vote against the forming of Select Committees for the reason I have stated in this HON. H. W. GAVFER (Central) [8.15 p.m.]: House on previous occasions and at least I will be My remarks will be brief and will be mainly in consistent. defence of the character assassination which I almost suffered from the Leader of the House. I maintain that it is not absolutely necessary to Hon. D. K. Dans: I said you were a man of have Select Committees for the same reason integrity. stated by the Hon. Phil Pendal; that is, certain members of Parliament would have the ultimate The Hon. H. W. GAY FER: When introducing say in the setting up of the committees. the motion the Hon. Ian Medcalf moved that a Select Committee of this House be appointed to Members are entitled to their views, but mine inquire into and report on: "(a) what committees have been consistent along these lines. I have of this house additionial to those already in exist- nothing against the House Committee and other ence might be appointed with a view to the more Parliament House committees such as the Stand- efficient . . . ing Orders Committee, the Printing Committee I maintain that I have been consistent in this and so on. Indeed, I have supported these com- House and if some members opposite fail to see mittees and I serve on one of them and have done this I am afraid I must remind them of one or two for many years. instances. The first concerns a motion moved in I might add that one of my arguments against another place when the first Public Accounts this motion is that I believe a member of Parlia- Committee was established, in, I believe, 1970 or ment's time is fully taken up in the work of his 1971. 1 opposed that motion. The second instance electorate and to add the arduous work of sitting concerns a motion moved in this House on I on a committee or a multitude of committees, as October 1980 in relation to the setting up of a this motion could lead to, would intrude upon his Standing Committee to examine Government time. Members will notice if these committees are agencies. 1, and two other members opposed that set up that the willing horses will sit on them and motion. Mr Dans did not. The members who op- we will see some sort of general activity go on. posed that resolution with me were the Hon. N. E. Baxter arnd the Hon. 0. C. MacKinnon. For those reasons I oppose the committee system and I oppose this motion. Again, on 24 March 1981 when the debate on the Government Standing Commmittee to exam- HON. V. J. FERRV (South-West) [8.21 p.m.]: ine Government agencies was resumed Mr Pike I support the motion moved by the Leader of the moved the suspension of Standing Orders, a mo- Opposition and in so doing I remind the House tion similar to that which is now before us. I that the setting up of a Select Committee would again opposed the motion. On that occasion my result in its making recommendations to this ranks had grown a little-I notice I was the only House for further consideration. The committees speaker at the time who opposed it-but Mr which are Proposed to be established would not Dan's name was not with mine. He voted for the have the power to inflict any recommendation on debate to be continued, which ultimately lead to this House which was not the wish of the House. the establishment of that committee. The mem- Therefore, this is a move for an exploratory corn- [Tuesday, 23 August 1983]128 1293 mittee which is deserving of the support of the Hon. FRED McKENZIE:- and money pro- House. duced no results. The Government chose to ignore Hon. D. K. Dans: Why don't you tell them the recommendations put forward. about the potato committee which was successful? I note tonight that the Hon. Phil Pendal has a Hon. V. J. FERRY: I would like to but it has new-found interest in setting up committees. He nothing to do with this motion. has been here for three years. This Parliament has the capacity to form one or Hon P. G. Pendal: How can you say that when two standing committees in addition to that which Hansard will reveal my interest three years ago? is already established. I would suggest that the Hon. FRED McKENZIE: His reason was to proposed Select Committee might come up with a take some pressure off the Government. whole range of committees in order of priority for Hon P. G. Pendal: I will give you 20 minutes on the House to consider. It may be six, eight, or 10 the adjournment. committees; but I cannot see many of them being added to the standing committees of the House in Hon. FRED McKENZIE: The Hon. Phil the near future. At this stage we are only Pendal can speak for 20 minutes on the adjourn- examining the situation. ment but I do not have to Iistin to him. I must say that the Hon. Margaret McAleer and the Hon. The PRESIDENT: Order! There is far too John Williams have for some time been promot- much audible conversation in the House. ing the committee system. Hon. V. i. FERRY: The comment has been Hon. P. G. Pendal: I acknowledge that interest made that with the proliferation of committees, for myself. debate in this Chamber may well deteriorate. I would hope that that would not be the case; mem- Hon. FRED McKENZIE: Maybe the Hon. bers would be far more informed as a result of the Phil Pendal did, but nothing was done about it by committees and they would be able to make a the Government. meaningful contribution in that way. The fear I have and the reason for my dilemma One point has not been mentioned and is is that I am wondering what is this new-found worthy of consideration. This is a State House reason on the part of the Opposition. After the and it is a State Parliament. It is somewhat com- H-on. Margaret McAleer delivered her speech in mon practice these days for State Parliaments to 1971-it was a sound one which has been re- be under attack from various sourc es and as a peated here tonight in many forms-the then State House and State Parliament we would do Leader of the House, the Hon. Neil McNeill well perhaps to have a committee consider those said- matters which may erode or undermine the State Miss McAleer raised a matter which has Legislature. I hope that is one matter the com- been under consideration and which has mittee will take into consideration. certainly been debated from time to time. I I support the motion. refer to the appointment of committees. The HON. FRED McKENZIE (North-East Metro- honourable member is certainly within her politan) 18.24 p.m.]: I am in somewhat of a di- rights in expressing her views and nobody lemma in deciding whether I should support or would dispute that. However she will be oppose this motion. aware that the matter has had searching examination over a long period of time. I do Hon. D. K. Dans: I am thoroughly confused not propose to express my support or now. otherwise for what the honourable member Hon. FRED McKENZIE: if one considers has said; nor will I take such action in re- what has been said earlier in the debate there is a lation to the remarks made by anybody else lot of merit in having committees of this House so in the course of this debate. that members have something to do. In that debate the Hon. Des Dans indicated that Hon. Tom Knight: You have served on com- there was merit in the Hon. Margaret McAleer's mittees. proposal, but the Government did not act and I Hon. FRED McKENZIE: I have served on two dare say we would not have the motion before us committees and regrettably one of them-I can- now if a Liberal Party-Country Party coalition not speak on the other because the Government Government were in the other place. has not yet made a decision--on which we spent a Hon. P. G. Pendal: How can you say that when lot of time- you know the previous Government did act in re- Hon. D. K. Dans: And money. lation to QANGOs? 1284 1284COUNCIL)

Hon. FRED McKENZIE: That was one com- Hon. Fred McKenzie: One recommendation mit tee. out of how many? Hon. P. G. Pendal: It was a most important Hon. A. A. LEWIS: One recommendation! All committee for years. of our recommendations about the south coast are Hon. FRED McKENZIE: It was set up to down the drain. avoid embarrassing the Government. I wonder Hon. Fred McKenzie: They are not down the whether the motive behind this motion is an ul- drain. terior one in order to frustrate the Government's The PRESIDENT: Order! I ask the honourable legislative programme. That is the fear 1 have. member to speak to the motion and stop talking Hon. 1. G. Medvaif: That is a typical Govern- to the Government Whip. ment reaction. Hon. A. A. LEWIS: It would be a pleasure, Hon. FRED McKENZIE: It may well be. Sir; but I have a duty to point out the fallacies in Several members interjected. the comments of the previous speaker. He said that the previous Government took no notice of a Hon. FRED McKENZIE: It is a gut reaction, Select Committee of this House. too, and one must be suspicious because the Op- position had plenty of opportunity and it knows Hon, Fred McKenzie: I will stand by that. full well the record in relation to the Bills which Hon. A. A. LEWIS: The honourable member came before this House during the Tonkin can stand by it or sit by it. He is wrong, and he Government. Twenty-one of them were rejected will be proved to be wrong. as time goes by. and a number were amended. Now that the press- If honourable members take notice of the ure is on, the Opposition is looking for a way answers I have received from the Leader of the out-to refer matters to a Standing Committee or House, they will Find that Mr McKenzie-a very a Select Committee in order that it can frustrate able member of that committee-will not have his the legislative programme in relation to those response from this Government for at least matters outlined in our policy speech. It is those another 12 months. matters with which this Government wants to Committees are of benefit; I am sure the Hon. proceed in regard to its legislative programme. Fred McKenzie would agree with that. this reason I have sat here listening to what For Hon. Fred McKenzie: I did not disagree with has been said and for a long time I have thought that. members in this House have nothing to do. It has been merely a rubber stamp for the Liberal Party- Hon. A. A. LEWIS: I am sure Mr Country Party Government. I am fearful for what Hetherington would agree; I am sure Mr Berinson will happen in the future. would agree: I am sure the Leader of the House would agree, because he learnt a lot about po- For that reason I oppose the motion. tatoes-he has often quoted to the House and to HON. A- A. LEWIS (Lower Central) [8.30 me privately his views on the time he spent on the p.m.]: I did not intend to speak until the Hon. Select Committee dealing with potatoes. Fred McKenzie stood up. I would not even deign Everybody is running away from what the mo- to deal with the Leader of the House because of tion says. It is to consider whether we should have the inane comments throughout his speech. Let committees. Nobody has denied the benefit to me draw the attention of members to the com- members of a committee system. mittee about which Mr McKenzie spoke. I pre- sume he spoke about a Select Committee inquir- A red herring was drawn across the trail by the ing into national parks. Leader of the House who said that country mem- bers do not have time. Country members always The previous Government supported the con- make time; it is the members from the North cept of the establishment of the south coast Province who do not;, but they do not seem to national park from the D'Entrecasteaux National what this place is all about. Park. However, the present Government, which understand has been in office for only six months, has laid all it is vital that the motion moved by the Leader that aside, and for 12 months we will not have a of the Opposition be supported for the benefit of decision on anything recommended by the Select the House and for the benefit of individual mem- Committee because the Government has set up, bers. The matter should be looked into. and the not one, but four committees with varying terms motion should be supported. of reference. If Mr McKenzie criticises the pre- IHON. CARRY KELLY (South Metropolitan) vious Government for this, he should consider [8.34 p.mn.]: During his speech the Hon. Fred what his own Government is doing. McKenzie said something about the Govern- (Tuesday, 23 August 1983] 181285 ment's being frightened that its electoral pro- have had no federation; so let us get that one out gramme could be delayed and the Leader of the of the way for a start. Opposition said that that was a typical reaction of In the 151 years of its existence, this House has Governments. That may be so; but in the present never been a genuine House of Review but a situation, where we have the Government in the House of privilege and power. Before 1979 or lower House and a hostile Opposition majority in 1980, everyone used to say how palsy-walsy the the upper House, the Opposition- atmosphere was, and it was not like the dreadfrul Hon. A. A. Lewis: Who said it is hostile? We other place; but when the crunch came, the have been very kind to you. numbers were used. When Labor Governments Hon. GARRY KELLY: -has the numbers, so were in office- that any time the Opposition- Hon. G. E. Masters: I do not think we have Hon. 1. C. Pratt: Outrageously kind to you so ever limited debate. far. Hon. GARRY KELLY: One has only to look Hon. CARRY KELLY: Just listen until I have at the record during the three years of the Tonkin said it, and then members can interject. Labor Government. The PRESIDENT: Order! The PRESIDENT: Order! I suggest to the Hon. CARRY KELLY: At any time it wishes, honourable member that he relate his comments the Opposition can refer Government legislation to the motion. He is talking about an entirely dif- to a committee. If the House were elected demo- rerent subject, and he should speak to the motion. cratically, 1 would have no objection to its having I have given him much leeway. a Select Committee system; but while it is selec- Hon. CARRY KELLY: Thank you, Mr Presi- ted on the present rigged and gerrymandered dent. basis, the people who make up the Opposition- I make the point that this House has never been Point of Order a House or Review. In moving this motion, the H-on. A. A. LEWIS: I believe the member is Leader or the Opposition is trying to establish the dealing with the subject of a Bill in another place. review powers of this House by investigating the The PRESIDENT: I do not believe there is a possibility of setting up Select Committees to in- point of order; but the member is wandering from quire into certain legislation coming before the the motion before the Chair. I suggest t hat he House. That was never done during the nine years draw his remarks in some way or another towards of the Court-O'Connor Government. In fact, the motion we are debating. when the Hon. Margaret McAleer put up the suggestion that a committee system should be es- Debate (on motion) Resumed tablished, it was dealt with swiftly by the then Leader of the House, who did not act on any of Hon. CARRY KELLY: With respect, Mr the suggestions made by our present leader at the President, the remarks I am making are fairly time. pertinent to the question of setting up a Select Committee system. In the case of the Senate, we The present Opposition has a vested interest in have a proportional representation system in setting up this committee system, which will delay which the States are represented equally. and frustrate the Government's legislative pro- gramme. It has nut a genuine interest in the com- Opposition members interjected. mnittec system or the rights of backbenchers. Hon. CARRY KELLY: Within each State, we This House is not a House of Review. It cannot have one-vote-one-value. be a House of Review when it is elected in the Opposition members interjected. way it is. For those reasons, I oppose the motion. The PRESIDENT: Order! HON. NEIL OLIVER (West) [8.39 p.m.]: It is Hon. CARRY KELLY: Talk about red her- disappointing to hear the way the previous rings! Let us be practical about it- speaker regarded the motion. It is a shame that Opposition members interjected. Government members are caucused in this way. The PRESIDENT: Order! If honourable mem- I will not delay the House; but it appears that bers cease their interjections we will reach the the move by the Leader of the Opposition is excel- conclusion of the debate on this motion more lent, and I commend it. quickly. On page 524 of Hansard, the Leader of the Op- Hon. CARRY KELLY: The Senate was the position put forward the reasons for the establish- price of federation. Without the Senate, we would ment of committees in the Senate, as follows- 1286 1286[COUNCIL]

(1) The increase in the activities of speakers were the two Ministers. We heard one Government: Minister responding to the Leader of the Oppo- We are well aware that the activities of Govern- sition, and we heard the other Minister giving a ment have increased dramatically over the years. major stream of interjections representing poss- It is commendable that we are moving to inquire ibly the longest speech on the subject. The third into the way the Parliament should operate. The Minister is very much in favour of the committee Leader of the Opposition continued--- system, but unfortunately he was not present this (2) the increasing volume and complexity evening. of legislation which cannot always be satis- Hon. D. K. Dans: How do you know that? factorily considered within narrow parlia- Hon. NElL OLIVER: It is interesting to note mentary timetables; that when the Hon. Des Dans spoke on the Ad- That is another commendable ideal. lHe con- dress-in-Reply in 1976, he commended the tinued- suggestion of the Hon. Margaret McAleer. One (3) present-day specialisation and the im- other member from the then Opposition pact of the tremendous progress in science benches-a person for whom we had a great deal and technology; of admiration; the Hon. Grace Vaughan-dealt (4) the inadequacy of opportunities and with that suggestion similarly. At the time there means on the floor of the Senate to discharge was a fairly strong move within the Labor Party fully Parliament's important duty to probe to improve the committee system of the Parlia- and check Government activities; ment, yet not one other member of the Labor Party mentioned the subject. (5) the lack of any formal follow-up pro- cedure to examine citizens' grievances or re- I suppose "committees" is an unfortunate term. quests, as expressed in petitions; I find that at times a committee seems to be just a That is something we have never seen happen in group of people working towards reaching a de- this House. The Leader of the Opposition said cision, having among them a person who may be further- brillant and who proposes a solution, and then when a decision is about to be reached, the chair- (6) the need for more question and answer man puts the committee into recess in order that sessions with Ministers and departmental it may sit again. The word "committee" is not officers regarding Bills, policies, and prone to stirring up great interest in people. Mem- administration; bers such as the Hon. Garry Kelly and the Hon. That has not been considered before in this Fred McKenzie think that committees involve ex- House. He continued- traneous debates and the frustration of any (7) the need to establish, through com- achievements that might be possible, but that is mittees, formal channels of communication not the case. I challenge any member to disagree between Parliament and interested organis- that keeping abreast of the complexities of ations and individuals; government and the problems faced by industries (8) the fact that Parliament is in session having to comply with the laws and regulations for only about half the year calls for a del- passed by Parliaments throughout Australia today egation to committees of power to continue is almost an impossible task. A recent survey con- inquiries, and the investigation of Govern- ducted to ascertain the laws and regulations ment activities, during the period when Par- passed over the last 20 years showed 16 631 Acts liament is not in session; and and 32 551 regulations were passed by the Feder- (9) the need, in an increasingly expert so- al and State Parliaments, giving a total of almost ciety, for senators to be able to call upon 50 000 statutory instruments created in 20 years. scholarly research and advice equal in com- The Hon. Des Dans has always been a member petence to that relied upon by the Govern- prepared to change; he has always said that we ment. live in a changing world and that we need to learn When the Hon. Margaret McAleer made her to adjust. Whenever the Labor Party has changed suggestion for similar committees on a previous a policy, he has said that the reason is that the occasion, the then Leader of the House and the party is able to move with the times. I have a Ministers of that Government were not amenable great deal of respect for him because he shows to an examination of a new form of committee flexibility. He has shown he is prepared to accept system. This evening, with another Government change. I have often discussed this matter with on the Treasury benches, the most obstructive him. [Tuesday, 23 August 19831 128728

Another problem involves industry complying the wishes of the people of Western Australia. I with change. It should be noted that for every dol- challenge members to tell me whether some regu- lar spent on introducing those 50000 statutory lations are not undemocratic and not in the best instruments, it has cost private enterprise over $3 interests of Western Australians. I challenge to comply with them. So I put it to members that members to say they have examined all the subor- with this motion we are looking at change in dinate legislation. All this is part of their responsi- many ways; we are looking at the change in the bility. method of examining legislation. Most of us Hon. Fred McKenzie: What about the Legislat- admire the Federal Republic of Germany's parlia- ive Review and Advisory Committee? mentary system, in both the Bundestag and the Bundesrat, and the way they examine legislation. Hon. NEIL OLIVER: We have that com- They do not have the major debate which mittee, but at the same time it is our responsi- transpires in our Parliament with our Australian bility to know what has been tabled. system of confrontation. Even in their current ple- Hon. Fred McKenzie: At least someone looks nary session the "Greenies', who constitute only at it. I5 people in the assembly of 465 people, have a Hon. NEIL OLIVER: The members of that right to equal representation on committees. I committee are not elected representatives. know Mr Dans has seen the Bundestag in oper- Hon. Fred McKenzie: But they are appointed ation; he has probably heard the sort of debate by Statute. that takes place and the way legislation passes through the plenary sessions with very little oppo- Hon. NEIL OLIVER: But can they disallow sition. The legislation passed is of a high quality. any regulation? How can our constituents know So the first part of the motion deals with expedit- what is tabled? The only time we are aware of ing the passage of legislation through the Parlia- what is tabled is when a Minister seeks leave of ment. the House to table certain papers. That is the only opportunity I have to ask the Clerks to select vari- Another part of the motion deals with the scru- ous papers that I request for examination. tiny or Government, and this is where tonight we have seen the Ministers back down. Not only have If the Government believes this motion has an Mr Dans and Mr Dowding backed down, but pre- ulterior motive it is unfortunate that when in Op- viously we have seen Liberal Government Minis- position it did not believe that this was so. It is ters back down. We need a system of examining interesting to know that a very similar motion was the Ministry and their departments; we need to be moved in another place in 1973 by Mr A. R. able to scrutinise their Operations. We as elected Tonkin. He moved that a Select Committee be representatives should have the opportunity to appointed to investigate the establishment of a question and to scrutinise the manner in which comprehensive and effective committee system in Governments expend and administer public the Parliament of Western Australia. In his wind- Finance, If that is what Mr Kelly believes to be ing-up remarks he congratulated a number of undemocratic and wrong, let him say that to the people, a large number of whom were Labor taxpayers of this State. members. He thanked them for their contri- butions to that debate. Unfortunately in 1973 the The motion deals also with subordinate legis- Labor Party held a different view; it has now had lation. This House has sat for seven or eight days a change of heart. this session and on the Table of the House we can see over 200 papers which have been tabled. Min- Hon. Garry Kelly: No, it has not. isters have tabled papers which constitute a group Hon. NEIL OLIVER: As Mr Dans has said, of regulations granted under various Acts of Par- we have the ability to meet and accept change. liament. We have of course a Legislative Review I support the motion. and Advisory Committee to scrutinise these regu- HON. I. G. PRATT (Lower West) [8.55 p.m.]: lations, but frankly as a member of Parliament I,' I support the motion. It is a correct duty of this like other members, have a responsibility to scru- House to use the committee tinise all subordinate legislation. system to examine a wide range of matters. I am very glad that the Over the last three or four days I have been Leader of the House referred to the fact that both labouring through many tabled papers which I Miss McAleer and Mr Berinson have made have asked the Clerks to obtain for me. I have speeches here supporting the need for a com- been examining those tabled papers which affect mittee system to be more widely used. However, particular areas with which I am conversant. to make a speech saying we agree with something I challenge any member to tell me whether is all very fine, but it does not do anything about those 200 items tabled by the Ministers represent the problem. If, for instance, the Hon. Mr 1288 1288[COUNCIL]

Berinson had moved to establish a system of com- the people we represent and the Parliament of mittees and the Government had then rejected it, which we are part. perhaps there would have been some reason for I support the motion. some of the comments made by Mr Dans about HON. TOM KNIGHT (South) [8.59 p.m.J: I our being in Opposition now and supporting the support the motion. Since I have been in Parlia- idea of a committee system. ment I have discussed this matter with many It has been suggested that when in Government older members of Parliament and I have indicated we did not support committees, but that is that I agree with a committee system. Unfortu- rubbish; obviously we did. Mr McKenzie knows nately I have served on only one committee. It very well that we supported the principle, because was a joint party committee and I must say that he has been involved very strongly with com- the contribution made to that committee by mem- mittees of this House. To say we would have re- bers opposite well and truly justifies the extension jected a proposal to establish committees is absol- of this sort of thing. ute rubbish, because we used committees. I must disagree with the statement made by Mr All we want now is to set up a committee to Gay fer wherein he said he opposed the committee investigate how best we can use a committee system because it meant he would not have system. I cannot see how anyone can object to enough time in his electorate. A committee com- that nor how anyone can say that this cannot be prises some three, five or seven members and not reconciled to actions of the coalition when in the 34 members who constitute this House. The Government; it is an extension of the same thing. committee is in a position to bring people forward Mr Dans has suggested that country members to give evidence which individual members are have said that they do not have time to serve on not able to obtain. The report is put before this committees; he has said that only four members House and tabled for the benefit of every mem- would be able to devote time to committees. ber, which means that those members not serving Hon. D. K. Dans: I said Mr Gayfer said that. on the committee have time to attend to their Hon. 1. G. PRATT: I doubt whether Mr electoral duties. Gayfer said that only four members would be The Leader of the House (Hon. D. K. Dans) available. I have not read that in Hansardso obvi- also raised my name in this evening's debate, but ously Mr Gayfer did not say it-Mr Dans. said it I think he did so to deliberately confuse the issue; tonight. he said that only four Opposition members would As a country member who spoke in the debate be available to serve on committees. That is how referred to by Mr Dans I most certainly have not he read it, but as I see it, a committee system will said that I cannot Find time to serve on com- give country members more time to spend in their mittees. I did speak against using more of our electorates because they will not waste time daytime in the House when we can use that time running around chasing up the many and varied more effectively elsewhere and when we have the things that members have to follow up in a total evenings, such as now, to debate matters in the House and parliamentary concept, as against House. Being a member of Parliament is a de- their electoral duties. These are totally different manding job and we must be prepared to spend from the point I mentioned when discussing the our nights and our days attending to necessary subject of the sitting hours. With the previous sit- work. ting hours I had time during the day to spend on Mr Dans has suggested that if we are to have a electoral matters on behalf of my constituents and committee system we should agree to his previous I was able to be in my electorate on Mondays and proposal to sit at 2.15 p.m. on Tuesdays and Fridays. I also served on a Select Committee, but 10.45 a.m. on Thursdays. That assertion is comr- it was not a full-week-at-a-time situation over the pletely without merit. If we found it difficult to total time of the recess. We fitted in what we had Find the time to sit on committees we could simply to do during the hours Parliament was not sitting. change the sitting time for Wednesdays from It is advantageous to the House to have a com- 2.15 p.m. back to 4.30 p.m. We would then have mittee putting together the facts and figures re- time for committee work. I would be happy to go garding a particular subject and examining them along with that idea and so provide sufficient time on a joint party basis, often without conflicting to handle committee work, which is so vital to the views. Eventually the committee will bring for- system of any House of Review. it is a role being ward its report and every member will concur in used more often by upper Houses and it is a trend the findings. This saves a lot of time which would we should follow and make more use of. To have otherwise be spent sitting in this House with 34 more committees would be in the best interests of people speaking and arguing the matter. It is [Tuesday, 23 August 1983] 181289 much better far members to sit back and read a mittee system as you, Mr Deputy President (Hon. concise report presented to the House by a Select John Williams) have been. Although he has not Committee. The argument put forward by the been in this House as long as you, Mr Deputy Hon. Mick Gayfer has no foundation because the President, like you Mr Pendal has advocated a committee system would give him mare time to committee system ever since he came to the Par- spend in his electorate, The argument put forward liament. He certainly advocated this on a number by the Leader of the House in regard to sitting of occasions. He in fact served on a Select Com- hours is incorrect because the proposed system mittee which was appointed in 1980 to consider would mean that we would not have 34 people whether or not a committee on Government wasting their time. We would have a committee agencies should be set up. That committee was for the purpose of preparing something for the very similar to the one proposed now, It was a benefit of this Parliament and the people of West- committee to see whether a special committee ern Australia. should be set up, similar to this committee, to see I support the motion. whether other special committees should be set HON. TOM McNEIL (Upper West) (9.04 up. p.m.]: I rise to support the motion by the Leader So in 1982 when we were in Government and this House had passed that motion, the Hon. Phil of the Opposition and at the same time to clarify Pendal some remarks made by the Hon. Mick Cayfer. I subsequently moved for the establishment do not want to appear to members to be changing of the Standing Committee and he was an my mind. When the original motion came for- inaugural member of the Standing Committee on ward 18 months ago I thought there were reasons Government Agencies. Certainly it is not COr- to disagree with the Hon. Bob Pike's motion that rect-it is most unfair and quite surprising-for a committee be formed for a certain purpose. In the Hon. Fred McKenzie to make those com- his speech tonight the H-In. Mick Gayfer clarified ments. the statement by pointing out that the Hon. I also listened with some astonishment to the Sandy Lewis, the Hon. Win Piesse, the Hon. Hon. Garry Kelly, and to the suspicion which Norman Baxter, the Hon. Graham MacKinnon, came out of every word he uttered. He seemed to and he had at various times opposed particular as- think that every word that I said when pects of the motion. I honestly believe, and have introducing this motion some two or three weeks done so since I have been in Parliament, that we ago was simple, abject hypocrisy, If he were to could perhaps more fully utilise the time we have take the trouble to read what I have said- I amn in this place by looking more carefully at legis- not sure if he was present and heard what I said lation. I can see no reason for not having a com- because he rather indicated that he did not know mittee system operating to the benefit of this what I said-he would see that I put very firmly House. the many good reasons that a committee system would strengthen this House of Parliament in its I do not intend to say that the I-In. Mick review function. Gayfer is not making himself available for com- He said to me that I was giving to this mittees; however, some of the more far-flung House a kind of mail-Fisted review function. Of country representatives will Find difficulty in course, I am not doing anything of the sort. The making their time available. I see merit in the House has always had a review function. I draw Leader of the Opposition's suggestion for a com- members' attention to the motion because I am mittee system involving closer study of some legis- surprised that it does not appear on the notice lation coming before the House. paper. The motion is simply that we inquire into I therefore express my support for the motion. and report on what committees should be set up HON. 1. G. MEDCALF (Metropolitan- in order to bring about the more efficient, proper Leader of the Opposition) [9.06 p.m.]: An awful and orderly despatch of the business of the House, lot of red herrings have been passed around the including the support of its review and Chamber by some Government members during investigatory function; in other words, to ende-av- the course of this debate. I say that because I our to perfect its review and investigatory listened with astonishment to the Hon. Fred function; to improve its performance. I make no McKenzie's remarks. I usually ascribe to him the secret of that; it is what we are trying to do. Is fairest of motives, but he was most unfair in the anything wrong with that? If the Hon. Garry comments he made regarding the Hon. Phil Kelly were here, no doubt he would be able to in- Pendal when he said that gentleman had a new- dicate whether he thinks there is anything wrong found interest in the committee system. Phil in perfecting the review function of this House. I Pendal was one of the great advocates of a corn- cannot for a moment believe that any member 1290 1290[COUNCIL] would think that was the wrong thing to do. That there appears a statement by a former Federal is the object of this exercise. Minister that the Federal Government would not I am not accustomed to making long speeches procedd with the Committee system which was in as I did on the introduction of this motion, but I its election platform. I will not read it all, but if meant what I said. Members who have been here required, 1 will table the document. It reads as a reasonable time know that I do mean what I say follows- and I measure my words as carefully as I can. THE Federal Government has backed away When I make comments to the effect that I be- from reform of the parliamentary committee lieve something will assist us in carrying out our system. duties as members of Parliament, I mean that; I Before the last election the Australian do not mean anything else. I am surprised that a Labor Party had proposed making substan- member could be so- tial changes to the committee system, to Hon. D. IK. Dans: Suspicious? strengthen the system and extend its cover- Hon. I. G. MEDCALF: I will not say what I age to virtually all areas of government. was going to say. I am surprised any member However, several ministers are understood could misinterpret my words to the extent that the to have had misgivings about the proposed Hon. Garry Kelly did. He has misinterpreted changes and on Wednesday night, the them and, frankly. I hope his knowledge of the Special Minister for State, Mr Young. an- procedures of the House improves as time goes nounced the committees to be established on. I express that hope in all earnestness and sin- would be the same as those that existed in cerity because his knowledge is not very good at the previous Parliament. the present time. Later the article suggests that they might at a I did make the remark that one does look at later stage proceed with the proposal. The article things differently when in Government as opposed continues- to when in Opposition. It is because of this it appears that several Hon. D. K. Dans: I accept that. ministers have got cold feet on the proposed changes. Hon. I. G. MEDCALF: There is no point in shillyshal[lying. Of course it is perfectly true. I am not suggesting there is anything strange Government Ministers are very busy people who, about that, but it is true that Governments do not for the most part, are preoccupied from morning like being scrutinised or having people look over till night. They work very long hours and many their shoulders. It is perfectly true that Oppo- days of the week, more than five, and they do not sitions find it easier to move these motions than really have time to think about a lot of the work Governments do; but it does not mean that when or the House. It is true that Ministers do become in Government we did not have a committee suspicious of the activities of committees. It is not system. We had many committees. The Hon. sufficient to say that only Liberal Governments Fred McKenzie served on one or two committees become suspicious of the activities of committees and other members served on many others. because Labor Governments do, too. The attitude Hon. Fred McKenzie: All I want you to say is of the Hon. Peter Dowding exemplified that. No- that you are not going to frustrate the legislative one could say that his interjeetions tonight were programme. If you can say that, fair enough. I am friendly or well disposed to this motion. They not disagreeing with committees. were indeed most hostile interjections which indi- The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Hon. John cated to ine his hostility to the motion and his Williams): Order! hostility to committees. Hon. 1. G. N4EDCALF: I will say what I want Hon. Garry Kelly: It might be more to the to say, not what the Hon. Fred McKenzie wants timing. me to say. Hon. I. G. MEDCALF: I am sorry Mr Kelly Hon. Fred McKenzie: 1 realise that. You was not in his seat when I was commenting on haven't even asked me. him. I do not propose to repeat those comments; Hon. Peter Wells: Now, now, Fred, that's not he can read them in Hansard in due course. like you! Hon. G. E. Masters: They will only upset him. Hon. I. G. MEDCALF: I did not hear that Hon. 1. G. MEDCALF: When members get interjection so I will not comment on it. When in into Government they do not like the activities of Government we supported many Select Com- committees. I will quote from an article in The mittees; indeed. I cannot think of a Select Com- Financial Review of 6 May this year in which mittee which was put before this House that we [Tuesday, 23 August 1983]129 1291 did not support. Three years ago we supported the has said publicly, and I give him full credit for his special committee which was set up to see honesty, that he is an opponent of committees; he whether we wanted a committee on Government has never been in favour of them. To quote him in agencies. This is the corollary of that. This is the relation to what country members can and cannot follow-on of that, as the Hon. Phil Pendal said. do is not a fair comment on the time available to I point out to the House that we have never be- others members of this House. rare had an identical proposition before us. If it is I repeat what Mr Pratt has said: One of the true to say that we never put this particular pro- reasons we did oppose the Leader of the House's vision before the House when we were in Govern- proposals for extending the hours of the House ment, the same could be said of the Tonkin was that we thought it would take away the time Governnient or of the former Opposition, the available to sit on committees. It was as simple as present Government. that. I said that in my comments- If I did not, I The former Opposition of this House never put will stand corrected, but I guarantee if members before this House a motion such as the one we are look at Hansard they will find I said there was presently dealing with. It never discussed with us committee work to be done. whether we should have such a motion. It is true Hon. D. K. Dans: I did not say that, but Mr that certain odd speeches were made, one by the Gayfer said to me you would have only four mem- Hon. J. M. lcrinson on the Address-i n-Reply, bers to do it. which Mr Dans quoted and thereby saved me the trouble, because I had it ready for my reply. Hon. 1. G. MEDCALF: As far as the resources of this House, particularly the cost is concerned, I Hon. D. K. Dans: Sorry about that. believe that is covered in the allocation for Parlia- Hon. I. G. MEDCALF: It is all right. I will not ment and this House. I daresay that could be rec- go through it again. tified in one way or another. We have asked for Certain members spoke in favour of com- the Government's co-operation-I made a plea mittees, but there was never a motion before the for it. I appreciate it has to be an equal partner- House except one in 1980 put forward by a ship between Government and Opposition. I have Government member, Mr Pike, to set up a com- no illusions on that score. I have studied the mittee to see whether we could justify having a methods used in other places, and it cannot be QANGO committee-to use that colloquial term. done without co-operation. The Senate found that It is not true, however, to say we have never sup- out. It had co-operation and its committee system ported committees. It is true that certain former has worked well. members of this House were strongly opposed to It astounds me that the Hon. Fred McKenzie committees. Mr Gayfer said that he was opposed, can say he will oppose this motion: if a division is and still is. Mr Dans quoted the Hon. Neil called he will have to cross the floor. That sur- McNeill who said during an Address-in-Reply de- prises me because I got the impression from Mr bate that he was not in favour of committees and Dans' comments that there was general agree- would not do anything about it. ment with the proposition that we should have a It does not mean we are all opposed to com- committee system. That is particularly so as he mittees. Indeed. I challenge anyone to quote any quoted members of his party, including Mr statement I have made in which I rejected any Berinson, and also others, during the debate. such proposition as the present one. I challenge Other supporters include Mr Tonkin whom Mr anyone to produce any such statement that I have McKenzie must greatly admire, judging by his rejected proposals for setting up committees. I no- other comments tonight. He was in favour of the tice there is a great silence from the Hon. Fred committee system and moved a motion in the McKenzie. other House in 1972 or 1973. That was quoted by I have said enough on that subject. I want to Mr Oliver. say now that to talk about country members not Many other people of all political persuasions being able to serve on committees and to take the have supported this proposal and it astounds me comments made by Mr Gayfer. who has indicated that Mr McKenzie will not do so. He and Mr he is an opponent of committees anyway, is not a Gayfer may vote against it and perhaps Mr Kelly fair thing in relation to the motion. might join them. I believe we will have the co-op- Hon. D. K. Dans: He made comments as to eration of the Government, judging by the com- why he was opposed. ments made by the Leader of the House. I cannot Hon. 1. G. MEDCALF: It is not a fair thing in believe the Government will not co-operate on this relation to what is before the House. Mr Gayfer in spite of the comments of one or two of their 1292 1292[COUNCIL] members and in spite of the suspicion quite un- TEMPORARY REDUCTON OF REMUNER- justly disclosed by Mr McKenzie. ATION (SENIOR PUBLIC OFFICERS) BILL H-on. Fred McKenzie: Time will tell; I hope I Second Reading am proved wrong. Debate resumed from I8 August. Hon. 1. G. MEDCALF: I can assure Mr HON. G. E, MASTERS (West) [9.25 p.m.]: McKenzie he is wrong. Time will prove him to be The Bill before the House has been scrutinised very wrong indeed. carefully by the Opposition. We regard it as one Mr Deputy President (Hon. John Williams), I of the most unprincipled and disgraceful pieces of legislation that has come before the House in the believe this is a forward move. I do not make any time I have been in Parliament, and probably for pretence on one point: It must be understood by all time. both Mr McKenzie and Mr Gayfer that the com- Hon. Garry Kelly: What about your industrial mittee system is dangerous to a Government. A legislation? committee system is something a Government instinctively shies away from because committees Hon. G. E. MASTERS: I will talk about that have the capacity to call departmental heads and later;, give me time. other people before them. They can be asked to It is significant that when one reads the Bill one supply information and so on. Anyone who under- finds it is difficult to understand. It will have to stands anything about the committee system be looked at closely in the Committee stages. It is knows that. It is laid out clearly in Odgers' Aus- significant that it has been written in the main by Labor lawyers rather than Government officers; all the other text- tralian Senate Practice, and that probably explains the poor writing of the books that people have written about committees. legislation. It is clear Governments do not like committees because committees pry into their activities. How- Hon. J, M. Berinson: Where did you get that from? ever, is that not in the public interest? Can we not take a longer view? Hon. G. E. MASTERS: Never mind. That is the information I have. I-ku. D). K. Dans: Mr Neil McNeill was horri- The most important point to make is that absol- fied by commitcees. utely no consultation has taken place with the Hon. 1. G. MEDCALF: If a committee system Civil Service Association, which after all, is the sheds more light I am sure members would agree respresentative body of the people who are affec- that is a good thing. A Minister may not think it ted. Yet this Bill has been introduced and the de- cision made with no warning whatever. Of course, is a good thing to be questioned by a committee. However if we can institute a committee system it breaks a contract and agreement. A decision more light will be shed on Government affairs and had been made by the Public Service Arbitrator. activities, and we will have done a service to the Whether it was right or wrong, it was an arbi- trated decision and the Government therefore has people of this State and to Parliament. broken a contract. It is unbelievable that no con- I thank members for their support and com- sultation took place, but after thinking about it mend the motion to the House. and seeing the way the Bill was introduced, it is Question put and passed. perhaps not surprising. No warning was given and the element of surprise was the key in its introduction. Surprise was absolutely csseiitial. Appointment of Select Commiltee It is a radical move-a sensational one. It did HON. L. G. MEDCALF (Metropolitan- exactly what the Government wanted. It hid the Leader of the Opposition) [9.24 p.m.]: I move- true purpose of the legislation; Government That notwithstanding charges were the real issue. The Press took the Standing Order No. of the legislation was 338, the select committee to be appointed bait and the announcement made and monopolised the media. It hid the pursuant to the resolution passed by the Government's charges, which were greatly in- Day No. 1, com- House under Order of the creased. prise the Honourables V. J. Ferry. 1. G. I will quote from a letter dated 19 August 1983 Pratt, J. M. Brown and Mark Nevill; and which was given to me today. It is signed by Mr I. committee be any that the quorum of the T. Fraser, General Secretary of the Western Aus- three of the members so named. tralian Police Union of Workers. I would like to Question put and passed. read a statement he makes on page 2 of the letter (Tuesday, 23 August 1983]129 1293

because it puts in a nutshell what has been going this sort of move. There must be a time when on. He says- integrity is more important than short-term politi- We believe that the present legislative ex- cal gain-and that is all this legislation rep- ercise is the aftermath of a frightening use of resents. Even worse, I understand there could be a the media and this in itself must leave all possible loss of staff as a result of this decision. thinking people in Western Australia with There may be many people who are considering some apprehension. taking up posts with the Government of Western That is exactly what has happened. It is a use of Australia-competent, well-qualified people, who will now change their minds. the media we have not seen before and it is de- Other members of signed to hide the increased Government charges, the Public Service will decide, as a result of the among other things. It is a simple, straightfor- Govnerment's move, that they will leave the ward political trick. It is the most callous and Government service. We are talking about the cold-blooded piece of legislation I have ever seen. general managers of departments-people with a The manner in which it was introduced was quite great deal of responsibility and a great workload. disgraceful. The Bill was introduced by the Horn. People who have studied and worked hard and J. M. Berinson and the first paragraph of his who have given a great loyalty to the service are speech states- to have their pay cut. This Bill is presented to give effect to one Indeed, the Attorney General is applying press- of the central elements of the Government's ure to public servants. It has been reliably re- cost-cutting measures designed to strengthen ported to the Opposition that some public servants the State's financial position. are now being asked, upon resigning, to sign a document stating that they are not leaving the As the debate goes on I am sure we will be able to Public Service because of the salary cuts. dispute that argument and to prove quite clearly that it was introduced for other purposes. It was Hon. J. M. Berinson: Are you accusing me of introduced for political gain. The Government putting that sort of pressure on public servants? and the Ministers responsible for this legislation Hon. G. E. MASTERS: I am saying it has have been prepared to sacrifice the loyalty and been reported to us that it has happened in some devotion to duty of a small group of people who cases. for many years have studied and worked hard in Hon. J. M. Berinson: You mentioned me in the interests of the public, the Government, and particular-do you want to stand by that? Parliamen t. Hon. G. EB.MASTERS: There was some com- Yet the Government has introduced this legis- ment that maybe- lation regardless of the effect it will have on those Hon. J. M. Berinson: Maybe? people and on the lives of their families and chil- dren. It has done so without consultation and Hon. G. E. MASTERS: The Attorney General without considering what could happen to those may deny that if he wishes to. I am saying that people who have substantial commitments. Every- one senior public servant who has recently left the one who earns and receives a salary tends to Government was asked to sign a document saying spend to the maximum and commit himself to the that he was not leaving for that reason. I refer to maximum. I do not know what will happen to Mr Kidsnn, a very well-known and respected pub- some of those people who will suffer. It is no good lic servant. I ask the Attorney General: Has any- saying they can afford-it; it is just not true. one been asked to sign a statement to the effect The Government believes the move is popular, that he or she is not leaving the Public Service be- and it may be so as far as the public generally are cause of the pay cuts? Does the Attorney General concerned. The public may say that a group of know anything of that matter? If he can say that people such as those affected can afford to have is not the case, that is fine; but I Say to him that their pay cut when one considers the salaries they he must think carefully about his answer because receive. The public may think it is a good idea. he is aware that he cannot mislead the Parliament Any cuts in politicians' pay would receive the ac- without getting into trouble. clamation of the public. That sort of argument Hon. J. M. Berinson: What sort of public ser- cannot be won. vant, interested in leaving for that reason, would We. are talking about public servants whose be prepared to sign such a statement? salaries are to be cut and that without consul- Hon. G. E. MASTERS: I am just asking the tation. Sensational it was, but it was a cheap pol- Attorney General to tell me whether he or any itical trick. Surely there must be a time for any other Minister has asked any public servant to Government or any group of people to consider sign a document saying that he or she is not leav- 1294 1294[COUNCIL) ing because of the cuts in Public Service salaries. Hon. G. E. MASTERS: The legislation that If he says that that is not so, 1 will have to look at the Opposition introduced in the latter part of last that situation. year was debated thoroughly in the House. We I understand also that the judiciary gave an did not introduce a one-off situation. This is a undertaking they would voluntarily take a 10 per one-off situation and if the Hon. Fred McKenzie cent cut in their salaries. I would like an assur- were in a union it affected, he would go right off ance from the Minister handling the Bill that the his face. I cannot understand how he can sit there proposal was generally supported and that mem- and shake his head, indicating support of this bers of the judiciary were not, for one reason or legislation. It goes right against everything he and another, coerced into making that decision. In his members have ever said in this House. other words, did all the people in the judiciary, 1draw the attention of the House to comments without any pressure at all, voluntarily decide to made only a few days ago by the Hon. Des Dans. take that cut? He gave me a warning and a little lecture. He I believe all members will agree that the pro- said that anyone who mucks around with the arbi- visions of this Bill set a serious precedent-the tration system, or anyone who tries to change the most serious precedent since the industrial arbi- industrial laws, is bound for a downfall. He men- tration system first commenced at the beginning tioned Mr Bruce losing his seat and Government of the century. This is not the same as a salaries as an example of someone who abused the arbi- freeze such as the Opposition introduced in the tration system. Anyone who abuses it in the way latter part of last year. At that time, the salary this Government is doing is bound to have a and wages freeze legislation was introduced to era sh. hold wages at their present level-it did not Hon. Fred McKenzie: You are referring to our change the arbitrated system or the levels of pay- last Government. ment which had been decided by the umpire. Hon. G. E. MASTERS: This is a much more Now, of course, the Government is prepared to radical change. What we have is an arrogant suggest that this Bill is no worse than the wages Government that has set a precedent for all time. freeze measure. I say to members of the Govern- That is what members must understand-the ment that they should ask the people affected precedent is for all time. The Government has what they think about that, because certainly this made a mockery of every argument its members move is far more serious than the salaries freeze have put forward in Parliament during the whole legislation introduced by the previous Govern- of my time here. ment. Hon. N. F. Moore: Quite right. The Opposition is not to be fobbed off with a Hon. G. F-. MASTERS: The Government is lack of explanation, as happeneed in another simply overriding an accepted legal system. I say place. We will not have our arguments ignored again that the freeze held wages, arbitrated de- and our queries not answered. I give fair warning cisions, and awards at a set level. It did not take to the Government that we will require answers to anything away. This measure is taking something all the questions and all the matters we are to away, and it is doing it selectively. raise. Hon. Lyla Elliott: Don't tell me that a freeze 1 am not saying the arbitration system is per- isn't a wage cut when prices continue to go up. Of feet-indeed, I am one of those people who has course it is. criticised the system. It is fair to say it has been Hon. G. E. MASTERS: We have plenty of used and abused by some of the people on the time to talk about a prices freeze if the honour- other side of the House who have been in the pos- able member wants to, but let me just talk about ition of being able to take on union positions. this one at the moment. If the honourable mem- They know exactly how the system works. ber takes the time to approach any member of the I recognise and accept that over a period of Public Service and ask what he thinks of the dif- time changes must be made to the arbitration ference, she will soon be told. I suggest that the system. We have to look at other ways, means, honourable member has not spoken to any public and methods; but that can be done in this House. servants to determine their attitude. That is a ter- If there are avenues, let us look at them here; but rible thing-a disgraceful thing. let us have regard for the whole principle and not I am saying again that it is selective and it just a one-off measure that is used as a smoke- offends every basis of the commitments the Labor screen for another purpose. Party has espoused over the time I have been Hon. Fred MacKenzie: You did not make a here. It makes a mockery of the arbitration very good job of that when you were Minister. system and it makes a mockery of the Public Ser- [Tuesday, 23 August 1983] 129529 vice arbitration decisions. The Government is say- When I asked Mr Dans a question about the ing that Mr Malley and Mr Forrest are incom- Builders Labourers' Federation-an organisation petent because they made decisions which this of which he probably knows something-he re- Government is now reversing. The Government is plied as follows- saying the arbitrators are not able to make a clear The Government has discarded the pre- judgment; that is what it is saying. The Govern- vious Government's practice of seeking in- ment is saying it wants more money and the dustrial confrontation for political purposes Treasury wants more cash, and so the Govern- and will not be interfering in the normal pro- ment has overriden the umpire's decision. The cesses of industrial relations. Government is saying that it will make up its own mind what these people are worth. There is no Mr Dans has not stopped meddling from the day point in arguing anything different. With the he got the job. He was interviewed in the very legislation we have before us tonight, we have a early days of his ministry by a reporter from The new Public Service arbitrator. He is nothing more Western Mail. The article written by this re- than a cold-blooded, ruthless, shark to do these ported is headed, "On a tightrope" and it reads as things to the people. He is playing with people's follows- lives, and doing it without any care at all for the His job is to walk a tightrope between effects. With this legislation the Government is trade unions, industry and Labor policy, with putting this man forward as the umpire, the the stated aim of removing polities from in- treasurer, the arbitrator, the mediator, and the dustrial relations. judge and jury. I say again to this House that this is a political Hon 1. G. Pratt: And the executioner. Bill. The Government introduced this Bill with a Hon. G. E. MASTERS: That is fair comment, callous disregard for the people affected and it too. demonstrates the Government's failure to the people of this State. It is a political gimmick and Unfortunately Mr Dans is not here at the mo- a smokescreen. ment, but I hope he is listening. If he is listening, I would like him to note this comment: Over a I say again that the reason for the introduction long period of time Mr Dans has said that his of the Bill is to hide the massive increase in Government and he personally would do all they Government charges and fees. It is the first step could to keep politics out of the industrial re- in the statement of accord between the Australian lations scene. That is what he said, and every time Labor Party and the Australian Council of Trade I draw any indusirial problem to his notice, like Unions regarding economic policy. The real thrust Lord Nelson, he puts his spyglass to his blind eye of the statement of accord is the socialisation of and says, "I cannot see anything". Mr Dans. and Australia, and more particularly, the the Government have not stopped meddling in in- redistribution of wealth. dustrial relations since they came to Government. Hon. Garry Kelly: Does not some of the wealth Mr Dans is running around like a regular little need redistributing? Fireman with his bucket and spade, except that his Hon. G. E. MASTERS: That is not so. We bucket contains petrol and he sets everything on have to be very careful. Is the member saying that fire! the senior public servants should be the guinea The Government's industrial policy is one of pigs?. Is the member saying that is what the Bill is meddling and interference and I will prove that as all about? If so, I hope he will stand up and make the debate goes on. The Government has got into a speech. the situation where it buys industrial peace. Any- I-on. Garry Kelly: You made a statement about one in this House could become a first-class solver of industrial problems by paying to solve the redistribution of wealth. them. However, when we pay to solve a problem, Hon. G. E. MASTERS: This measure is a someone else must pay the price. That is what this precedent-it legislates for a wage cut and not for Bill is all about. It means that the payments made a wage freeze. It faces public servants right now by the Minister and the Government to buy in- and in the future with an axe over their heads be- dustrial peace must be paid for somehow, and the cause they will wonder who is next. The Premier chickens are now coming home to roost. The said that the Government considered a threshold people who must pay for the Government's ac- of $24 000. Next year, the Government will be in tions are the senior public servants-some 1 100 a far worse financial position than now. We left of them. They are the people having pay for all it in a pretty good position but the way the the giveaways made over the previous months. Government is spending money now it will not 1296 1296[COUNCIL) have any left next year. What I am saying is this: lieve should be thrust in front of members op- Who will be next? posite. Prior to the election the Premier said, Several members interjected. "Labor will seek to freeze goveromeilt taxes and charges during the period of the wages freeze": Hon. J. M. Berinson: You left us a $31 million "No increases in water rates"; and "No increases deficit, that is what you left us. in electricity charges". Several members interjected. Hon. P. H. Wells: Where did you get those Hon. J. M. Berinson: And that is not what I am comments? saying-it is what Treasury says. Hon. G. E. MASTERS: I am quoting from an Hon. G. E. MASTERS: Rubbish! advertisement containing promises made by Mr Hon. J. M. Berinson: Your Treasury and our Burke. We should frame this advertisement! Treasury-the same Treasury and the same $31 Several members interjected. million. Hon. P. H. Wells: They have not changed their Several members interjected. minds, have they? The PRESIDENT: Order! Several members interjected. Hon. 1. G. Pratt: Blatantly untrue. Hon. G. E. MASTERS: Let me return to the Hon. G. E. MASTERS: If the honourable argument I was advancing. I said this was an un- member who interjected was not smiling, I would principled piece of legislation and the Govern- take it very seriously. ment was prepared to sacrifice certain people to Hon. J. M. Berinson: 1 am not smiling, and cover up the financial mess it had got itself into. what I told you is absolutely correct and true. Hon. Lyla Elliott: That is not true. Hon. G. E. MASTERS: Let me say again that Hon. G. E. MASTERS: Mr President, let me we are now setting a precedent. quote further. The Premier is quoted as saying, Already there has been talk of a $24 000 "A wage freeze without a price freeze won't threshold. That was the talk earlier, but Cabinet work". I understand the Opposition is embar- rassed. Another promise was "Labor will seek to decided to lift the threshold, and wisely so; how- freeze Government taxes and charges during the ever, later the problems will be more serious and I period of the wage freeze". Quite recently in an would hazard a guess that the $24 000 threshold answer in this House, Mr Dans said the wages will be considered next year. What will the freeze was still with us, and yet we have had reduction be-10, live, or two per cent? massive increases in taxes and charges. The Hon. i. M. Berinson: You are talking through Government said prior to the election that there your hat! would be- Hon. G. E. MASTERS: The Attorney has to No increases in water rates. say that, because he is trying to get his Bill No increases in electricity charges. through the House. The Labor Party and the Government in this State are prepared to sacrifice No increases in third-party motor insurance. any principles to disguise their financial inepti- No increases in land tax. tude. We all know about the broken election No increases in stamp duty. promises of this Government. It said it would cre- No increases in bus and train fares. ate jobs, keep prices down, and not increase Government charges. However, the only promise No increases in rail freight charges. the Labor Government has been able to keep is No increases in irrigation charges. the one to reopen the Fremantle-Perth railway, Hon. J1.M. Berinson: Based on your assurance and that will cost us money. The Hon. Fred of no deficit. McKenzie is smiling about that and I do not Hon. G. E. MASTERS: I suppose that the best blame him but it is the only promise the Govern- one to finish off with is, "No increases in State ment has been able to keep. However. someone petrol tax". has to pay for that and the Government has selec- ted those few people for the sacrificial con. If any of us were in private enterprise and we put that sort of advertisement in the paper then Hon. Lyla Elliott: That is wrong and you know broke the promises made in it within the next two it! or three weeks, the Commissioner of Consumer Hon. G. E. MASTERS: If the member says it Affairs would have us in court. He would say, is wrong, let me say this: Prior to the last election "You have been misleading the public. That is the Premier made public statements which I be- false advertising". That was certainly the case. (Tuesday, 23 August 19831 129729

Now we are saying to the person who authorised -announcing the rise did not refer to Com- the advertisement and whose photograph ap- missioner F. J. Neyland's January de- peared in it prior to the election that he is a per- cision-which said that the WA drivers son who has broken every single promise that is should not get the rise they were claiming as written publicly there. a flow-on from their Victorian counterparts. Hon. P. G. Pendal: The best new leader in the Further down in the same Press statement it goes State! on- Hon. G. E. MASTERS: The Premier has Commissioner Neyland found that the broken every one of these promises and yet the drivers did not have a nexus with Victoria legislation before the House seeks to give this and that the increase they were seeking had same man unfettered powers. He is a deceitful been peculiar to Victoria. man; indeed, he must be, bearing in mind the way The Government made that decision without he has reneged on all the promises he made. Now reference to the arbitrator and without taking the Premier wants this unfettered power over his notice of the instructions of the commission. Obvi- own work force. ously it was a buy-off and it will cost $1.46 It is obvious the Government has a lack of million a year. That statement is made here, so Financial management ability. That was perhaps there is no mistake about it. The $1 .46 million is highlighted when the Government announced in- another bill which will have to be paid and it will creased taxes and charges and the Premier said be met as a result of the sorts of impositions on the increases would give the State something like the publie.which we are discussing today. $57 million. Since that time it has been proved Just to demonstrate how foolish the Govern- the Premier was $60 million out. It takes some- ment was and to illustrate the silly move it thing of a genius to make that sort of mistake. made-I am sure it regrets it now-let me quote and it is no wonder the Premier is bringing for- from a statement which appeared in The West ward this type of legislation. It is no wonder the Australian of 27 July 1983 and which reads as Premier has to cover his tracks in some way or follows- other. Government was embarrassed The Government's claim to fame in its indus- trial policy is to buy peace at any price and that is Minutes after Mr Gerry Overman what this Bill is all about;, it seeks to pay for the launched the WA submission to the national pay-offs which have been made over a period. It is wage case in Melbourne he was challenged robbing Peter to pay Paul. I would not have raised by the commission president, Sir John this matter had I been given a satisfactory answer Moore. by the Government. However, over a period I have been asking what sorts of increases the Sir John was referring to the Government decision in March to grant the MTT's 1500 Government has given to Government workers; drivers an extra $14.30 a week in settlement how many people are receiving these increases; of a claim rejected in January by the Arbi- and what departments are involved. The answer 1 received was, "The information will take some tration Commission. time to compile. It is not readily available". The Government says, "Take notice of the arbi- The other night I made a speech on the ad- trator: take notice of the umpire; that is all im- journment which demonstrated clearly that infor- portant". However, within weeks of gaining mation must be available for any Minister to office, the Government made a fool of the arbi- make that sort of decision, so there is no question tration system and it is continuing in that vein but that answer misled the House. However, in with this legislation. case the Government persists and says the infor- The same situation applied in respect of energy mation is not readily available, let me give mem- workers. The Government sent along a couple of bers some exam ples which the Minister respon- its paid union advisers to Sort Out the trouble; and sible should have given me in this House publicly, what was the result? The union leaders said, "We but which he did not want to do. will sort it out". Indeed they did; they bought in- In The West Australian of 25 March, under the dustrial peace. The figures are there. I am sure heading. "Government grants rise for bus drivers" the House does not want me to read them. Every- the following comment appears- one knows what went on. His 20-line Press release- Hon. Fred McKenzie: What do you mean when That refers to Mr Grill. To continue- you say, "They bought industrial peace"? 1298 1298[COUNCI L]

Hon. G. E. MASTERS: I quote- weekend offer of the Minister for Industrial About 300 members of the Federated En- Relations, Mr Dans, to act as a mediator in gine Drivers and Firemen's Union had the dispute. threatened to hold a 24-hour strike last week Mr Dans moved in again with his little Fire bucket to discuss progress on their claim for the in- Filled with petrol and tried to put out the fire. We crease. all know what happened. To continue- There we see strike action again. The MT T Mr Coleman said that Press reports on the drivers said they would go on strike and they re- offer by the Minister for Industrial Re- ceived their rise straightaway. lations, Mr Dans. to act as a mediator in the Hon. Fred McKenzie: Are you saying they dispute disturbed him. This was the role of didn't deserve it? the commission but no approach had been Hon. G. E. MASTERS: Is the member saying made to it, he said. lHe questioned whether the MTT increase was justified? the Government understood the function of H-on. Fred McKenzie: Yes. the commission. Hon. 0. E. MASTERS: I give up! Obviously I question whether the Government understands the honourable member interjecting knows far the function of the commission. I believe we have better than the Industrial Commission and, I sup- been fooled by Mr Dans. and some of the menm- pose, in view of his background, he is bound to be bers of the Government. They have only had ex- a little biased-, but it is passing strange that the perience in Opposition and when they are placed Government's advisers should go down there, in a situation which has a mediator or an umpire, make an offer, and the workers returned to work they ignore him if it suits their purpose. straightaway. Of course the Government can solve industrial disputes in that manner, but at The obvious reason for the Minister's refusal in what cost? this House to answer some of the questions I A headline appeared in The West Australian of asked was simply that he was not prepared to re- Friday, 6 May 1983, which said, "~Hospital lease those figures before this debate was con- workers jump pay freeze". The article reads, in cluded, because they would be an embarrassment part as follows- to him and the Government and would expose the The State Government has granted a 6.83 whole farcical situation and the fact that the per cent wage rise to about 4500 public hos- Government does not care a fig about the arbi- pital orderlies and domestics under the tration system; the Government just uses it when exemption provisions of WA's wage-freeze it suits it. legislation. The rise, back-dated to late Let us look at what else has happened. I turn to March, is expected to cost the Government the second part of the theory. On the one hand $1.24 million. the Government seems to be able to afford these The other day I made a statement in this House increases but, on the other hand, it says it has to that the four increases I quoted which had been take sensational and dramatic moves to save granted by the Government would cost in excess money. The Government is giving with one hand of $7 million in a full year. Already I am half-way and taking with the other. I accept that it is a there with these examples. If ever we wanted to brilliant piece of deception and, to a certain ex- understand the incompetence of the Government tent, it has succeeded; but let us look at the real in the industrial field and its lack of sensitivity philosophy of this argument and the comments and the bullying tactics which are implied by this which were made by the Premier. Let us look at legislation, we see it here. the deeper truth. Several members interjected. The Premier made the following statement- Hon. G. E. MASTERS: The Government ..one of the greatest delinquencies of the simply ignored the arbitrator; that is what it did labour movement has been the lack of atten- and it is continuing to do that. tion that it has paid to the question of Let us take another example-that farce, the relativities and to the distortion of the distri- Perth City Council workers' dispute. Let us get bution of wealth so that we have a situ- that straight. In The West Australian of 6 July ation.. under the heading, "Government moving to aid Apart from being a smokescreen, this Bill is sacked Perth City Council workers" the following simply hiding the real truth of the matter; that is, appeared- the Premier and his Ministers have decided-not Arbitration commissioner Jim Coleman the arbitrator-that a distortion of relativities criticised the behaviour of the MEU and the exists and they will sort it out. The arbitrator or [Tuesday, 23 August 2983])29 1299 the umpire will not sort it out; the Government file now know the threat posed to them as a result will- of the Government's action. The Premier went on to say- I have been a Minister, as have other members It is time that we all started to realise that, on this side of the House, and one Minister is sit- in this society, things have got out of' hand in ting opposite me now. We all know that if a respect of the distortion of relativities., budgetary problem exists a Minister simply says to his staff-to the directors and senior officers There is a clear statement by the Treasurer; that who will have their pays cut as a result of this is his real objective in this legislation. measure-"This is not good enough. You cannot The distortion of relativities-if there is such a have a 10, IS or 17 per cent increase; in the de- thing and that is what the Premier and the partment's budget you have to make do with an 8 Government are saying-will be with us next per cent increase. Go back to your budgets and year. If the legislation is passed, will the Govern- adjust them". During every year I was Minister ment do a somersault next year and say, "We did that situation occurred; we had to make the pub- not like it last year: we do not like it this year"? lic servants do their work properly. It is the Of course it will. It is a first step in rectifying nature of people to try out others. This Govern- what the Government sees as a distortion of ment did not bother to do that, it just said, "This relativities. It is not being done through an arbi- is a good move. We will save $11I million". It is trator. The Government is saying, "We have to prepared to sacrifice people it employs. make certain in our own minds that this distortion Hon. Fred McKenzie: You always cut at the of' relativities will not continue". This is the First bottom level, and never at the top. step the Government will take and we in this Hon. 0. E. MASTERS: The arbitration House should not let it go any further. system is the legal system for setting wage levels. For as The public servants have been made the long as I can remember when in Opposition mem- bunnies by a ruthless political manoeuvre. This bers opposite have extolled the virtues of that has been done by Burke's bodyguards who use system, but now they have reverted to type. They computers instead of rifles; but, nevertheless, it introduced when in Opposition a green paper, a has been done by his advisers. The Government discussion paper, which no doubt has formed the believes it is sorting out a distortion of relativities, Government's policy on these matters. In many but it has made no reference whatsoever to an ar- ways it was released as a trial to determine public bitrator. reaction, and one of the matters referred to was The decision was announced in a reprehensible an increase in the powers of the Industrial Com- way. It was quite wrong for the Government to mission. If the Government introduces legislation make the announcement on about the same day it to effect that increase-I understand that there announced the increase in Government charges, would be only one arbitrator-I will ask why the and that timing exposed the Government for what Public Service Arbitrator will be dispensed with, it is. 1have here a journal of the Civil Service As- and whether it is a fact that the Public Service sociation, which is worth quoting because it indi- will have to go to the arbitration commission to cates that the penny has dropped for civil ser- have matters resolved. Is the Government em- vants-they understand what is going on. The barking on a campaign against the GSA? Is it article states- embarking on a vindictive move? The Premier has moved to cover up mass- Hon. Fred McKenzie: Is there anything wrong ive increases in State charges and taxes by with that? wheeling out the old public service fat cat Hon. G. E. MASTERS; Has the Government bogey. consulted the GSA? Before this year's State election, the Prem- Hon. Fred McKenzie: Tell me whether there is ier was a constant critic of the high cost of anything wrong with the GSA going to the com- service charges in this State. mission? The smokescreen he chose was the cutting H-on. G. E. MASTERS: I do not know why the of public servants' salaries. Government would bother changing the system, On the day the increased charges were an- because already it has only two commissioners, nounced, the Premier's intention to cut these Mr Dans and Mr Burke. 1 do not know why the salaries was leaked to the media. Government would need more; it ignores whatever That explains exactly what happened and why. anybody else says. The penny has dropped, and the Government has It -is strange that the TLC has not sought to underestimated the Public Service. The rank and support the GSA in its fight against the Govern- 1300 1300[COUNCIL) ment's intentions. I thought the TLC was opposed not have to pay for the necessities of life or to pay cuts, especially those made by an arbitrary for petrol to run their cars; that they do not decision. The TIC made the comment about the have to meet every other charge that other Perth City Council dispute that if it proceeded to people in the community must meet. There is the point that the council were allowed to succeed a belief that they are simply loyal servants of a precedent would be created for other groups. the Government and long may they suffer This move by this Government could well be emu- and bleed for it. lated by private enterprise across the board on the I suggest they are bleeding now. To continue- basis of economic considerations. That idea must soon run out of puff. It This Government has torn up the Act and may have been relevant when a pound was a thrown away decency and fairness. We have come pound one year and still a pound 30 years to understand that this Government does not sup- later. It does not apply now. port harmony and good will, or consensus and In 1982 Mr Dans talked about public servants. I good government, which it said before and after will quote another comment of his reported in the election it would support. It said it would be the be-all and end-all to solve all problems, but al Hansard at page 3867 of Tuesday, 19 October comment is- we have had is yet another broken promise, as has 1982, and the occurred in many other areas. The very basis of our economic well-being revolves around three simple points: (a) We Hon. Fred McKenzie: Where do you get that need unions to operate, we will not operate from? without unions; (b) we need employers' and Hon. G. E. MASTERS: I have figures (c) more importantly, we need an umpire. available to me which I will produce in due The umpire must lay down the ground rules course, but now the Opposition is happy to ask for minimum rates and say to both employers questions in this House so that we can compare and unions, "if you cannot measure up to the the answers with the figures we have. But there minimum conditions, you should not be has been a lack of proper answers, and that is here." good, because we will make fools of the Govern- I agree with him-this Government should ment. In fact, that is what we have been able to not be do. here. I refer again to Hansard of Tuesday, 12 October 1982, at page 3509, at which the Hon. D. This Government has always talked about the K. Dans states- virtues of the arbitration system and the necessity ... Mr to abide by the umpire's decision. To dispel any Masters-after all he is the Minister doubt about the Government's position, I will handling the Bill-shows he has no appreci- quote comments reported in Hansard which indi- ation of the Australian tradition with regard cate the Labor Party's turnabout and the insin- to the arbitration system in this country and cerity of the Government in bringing forward this the manner in which it grew up. measure. On Thursday, 13 May 1982, at page He said that the other night, yet all the evidence I 1873 of H-ansard, the Hon. D. K. Dans was re- produce now indicates that he cares nothing for ported as stating- the arbitration systemn and even less for the Indus- We will agree to this Bill provided the trial Commission-the mediator, the umpire. To same assurances given in the other place are continue- given here:, that is, that a full review of the I have often said in this Chamber that Act will be undertaken between now and the "industrial relations" is another phrase for next session of Parliament and public ser- "human relations in the work place". vants will have their conditions of employ- The honourable member has indeed soon forgot- ment considered by people skilled in the art ten the statements he made. Statements made by of conciliation and arbitration in the wage- other honourable members are worth quoting fixing system. also:, in particular, one by the I-on. Peter I wonder whether the Labor Party has continued Dowding, whom I am glad to see here now, is that review, because we had made preparations worth quoting. In Hansard of Wednesday, 22 for it. To continue- December 1982, at page 5913, the Hon. Peter It seems to me there is a feeling not only in Dowding said- this country but also in countries overseas It is interesting to note that this legislation that civil servants are different from anyone is directed at sabotaging the long-standing else; that they do not need to have their principal that wage fixation is not an execu- salaries keep pace with inflation; that they do tive Government decision- [Tuesday, 23 August 1983] 130130

Hon. P. G. Pendal: Who said this? The PRESIDENT: Order! Order! Hon. G. E. MASTERS: Mr Dowding. Hon. G. E. MASTERS: On Wednesday, 22 Hon. Tom Knight: That is unbelievable. December, at page 5911 of Hansard, the Hon. Hon. G. E. MASTERS: To continue- Peter Dowding is reported as saying- -but is determined by a series of com- When we see the trauma the honourable missions and tribunals which collect evidence member's party is causing this State we think and make determinations. we could do the job a lot better. We would not resort to cheap political stunts at the ex- Hon. A. A. Lewis: Surely he will vote for us. pense of the community. Hon. Neil Oliver: That is one thing we can count on. Hon. Peter Dowding: Hear, hear! Thai has been shown by our practice over the last six Hon. P. G. Pendal: He will have a short minis- months. terial career. Hon. A. A. Lewis: We have had rises in elec- Hon. 0. E. MASTERS: To continue- tricity costs. It has been prepared to avoid the matter Hon. Peter Dowding: They have been less than entirely and override all the wage fixing pro- cesses. What a vote of confidence that is in every electricity cost increase your Government the independent tribunals mentioned in the brought in after every election. Bill. Hon. A. A. Lewis: No! Further on he continues- Hon. Peter Dowding: You ought to look at the The reality is that it is a vote of no confi- record some more. dence in the Industrial Commission, the Several members interjected. the Public Salaries and Allowances Tribunal, The PRESIDENT: Order! Service Arbitrator, the WA School Teachers' Tribunal and others because the Government Hon. Peter Dowding: You left us with a deficit has not been prepared to seek to justify the for the first time in the history of the SEC, so rubbishy economic stance that it took in this don't talk rubbish to me, because that's where you House in the Minister's second reading are wrong. speech or to allow the tribunals to decide The PRESIDENT: Order! issues on the evidence presented. I-on. P. G. Pendal: Chuck him out. Hon. Peter Dowding: When will you get to the point? The PRESIDENT: Order! I ask honourable members to take note that when I call for order Hon. P. G. Pendal: The point! that is what I mean, and if members ignore that Hon. Neil Oliver: Weren't you listening before? call I will, unfortunately, have to take some ac- Hon. 0. E. MASTERS: To continue- tion. I suggest you cease your interjections and As the Deputy Leader of the Opposition that the member on his feet quickly relate his said, when the chips are down, the Govern- comments to the legislation before us and cease to ment is not prepared to accept the decisions be provocative. taken; it hides them under the hat of execu- Hon. G. E. MASTERS: Mr President, with live power. due respect to you, I thought I was talking to this Hon. Peter Dowding: That is quite right, but it legislation. It deals with the industrial arbitration is not what we are debating tonight. system and the overriding of the umpire's de- Hon. G. E. MASTERS: We are debating the cision. I am drawing to the attention of the House industrial arbitration system. the statements made by two Government Minis- If I am being provocative by quoting from Hon. Peter Dowding: No we are not. ters. Hansard I would like you to tell me. Hon. G. E. MASTERS: We are debating the Government's riding roughshod over people for Hon. Peter Dowding: Are you disagreeing with political expediency, and we are debating state- the Chair? ments made by members who will have to eat Hon. G. E. MASTERS: Am I allowed to read their words or vote against this Bill. from Hansard? Hon. Fred McKenzie: You know who we learnt The PRESIDENT: The honourable member is from, and that's you. permitted to discuss anything he can relate to this Several members interjected. legislation. 1302 1302COUNCIL]

Hon. G. E. MASTERS: At page 1760 of consider the economic facts of the argument. Sec- Hansard of Tuesday. 12 May 1981, this state- tion 25 of the Public Service Arbitration Act ment was made by the Hon. D. K. Dans- says- What is the good of unions going to the 25. Subject to the provisions of sections commission and obtaining a decision if the twenty-one and twenty-six of this Act, no Government comes back to Parliament award, order or decision of the Arbitrator almost immediately and destroys any de- made under this Act shall be challenged, ap- cision the commission has made or is likely to pealed against, reviewed, quashed or called in make? question, or be subject to any prohibition or The Hon. Peter Dowding came in to say- mandamus, in any Court on any account whatever. This Government does it all the time. It is Those public servants disgraceful. working under this Act and who have been before the Industrial Commission, Hon. Peter Dowding: That is right. the court, or the Public Service Arbitrator have a Hon. G. E. MASTERS: To continue- right to accept, once a decision is made, that it The purpose of the commission involves stands and they should be able to appeal or work one desire, and one desire only; that is, the on that premise. prevention and settlement of industrial dis- It is wrong that the Government is not prepared putes. The Government's intention is to im- to put forward an economic argument and to plement Government policy by coercion of stand by the umpire's decision. manoeuvre, simply to prevent any settlement I condemn the title of the Bill and certain state- of industrial disputes. However, when the ments made about certain employees. It is dis- commission reaches a decision, whichever criminatory that the Government has selected way it goes, the Government should not public servants-although not all public servants. interfere, by way of legislation, to nullify that and made them a sacrificial cow. It is interesting decision.. when we refer to the selective few, that in That is what we have before us today. opposing the Confederation of Western Aus- tralian Industry's proposition that the 17/5 per Hon. Peter Dowding: It is not. cent holiday loading should be deleted, on 20 July Hon. G. E. MASTERS: To continue-. 1983 the Government advocate said the Follow- .. that policy should apply, no matter what ng- the decision. The H-on. Peter Dowding be- ..in a period of wage restraint, the Com- lieves that is not what we are talking about mission "should not agree to moving wages in today. The arbitration commission made a terms of dollars and cents in a downward di- decision and now we are talking about this rection". We were urged that at a time when Government overriding that decision. persons were being required to exercise re- straint no entitlement should be withdrawn Those comments are relevant and if Mr for that would jeopardise the wage pause and Dowding does not think they are, I am sorry for particularly should not be withdrawn from a him. "1small body of employees" within the I think the Government should quite seriously State . .. consider that instead of putting the matter before The Public Service Board representing the the Treasurer for his decision it be put back to the Government of WA said- Public Service Arbitration for his consideration. ..itwould be inequitable, said the Board, Hon. Peter Dowding: Public Service what? particularly in a period of wage restraint, for Hon. G. E. MASTERS: The Public Service Ar- a group of employees "to be singled out and bitrator is competent in making decisions and, in- penalised". deed. making all the decisions that the Govern- Hon. P.OG. Pendal: Across the board? ment is making. If the Government has any doubt Hon. Peter Dowding: Even those people cannot about that position, it should look again because afford it. obviously the Government is able, as umpi re, to Several members interjected. put before the Public Service Arbitrator the econ- omic arguments and say to the arbitrator, -Here Hon. G. E. MASTERS: The comment con- is a serious economic argument and we have tinues- serious problems". The arbitrator, under section It was said that to grant the application 21 of the Public Service Arbitration Act is able to would be for the Commission to abandon its [Tuesday, 23 August 1983] 130310

oft-staled principle of comparative wage con- shipping companies came to him and said, "We ditions justice. are in financial difficulties and our employees A statement was made on behalf of the Govern- who are earning $30 000 per annumt should have ment that it was wrong to be selective, to pick on their salaries but by l0oper cent". What would the a few people and take their pay away from them. Hon. Peter Dowding, the Hon. Joe Berinson, the At the same time-not a few days later -the Hon. Des Darts, and the Government say? They Government is proposing to do just that. While on would all run for cover. This Bill is an Act of the subject of selective cuts let me again quote an sheer hypocrisy. The Government may claim it is article from The West Australian of 6 July 1983 a money Bill and is in the public interest. We be- headed "Firm's conduct disgraceful, says judge" lieve it is a selected income tax. This is a money which reads as follows- Bill of a serious nature and we want the Govern- ment to convince this House of the reasons for the The conduct of the big engineering Bill, which we have a right to know. It affects company Comeng (NS5W) towards its em- public servants who have been working for the ployces and the law was "disgraceful and Government for many years. utterly unworthy of a corporation of its size and significanice." Mr Justice Macken said I-on. Tom Stephens: Just like you produced the yesterday in the NSW Industrial Com- facts about the deficit before you went to the mission. polls. In a 15-page judgment he upheld an appli- Hon. G. E. MASTERS: What about the money cation by the Vehicle Builders' Union to that has been invested? block, for a three-month cooling-off period, Hon. Tom Stephens: If you had been a private 10 per cent wage cuts imposed on its mem- company you would be in gaol by now. bers at the company's Granville plant. Hon. 1. G. Pratt: It is no wonder that you were [Comeng (Commonwealth Engineering) is not successful in accounting. a subsidiary of Australian National Indus- Hon. G. E. MASTERS: This is a serious Bill tries.] and I regret that the Opposition is getting upset. In handing down his decision, Mr Justice Hon. Peter Dowding: You mean you wonder Macken described the pay cuts as illegal and why the Government is getting upset. said: "it may be one thing to treat employees Hon. G. E. MASTERS: Let me make my own like feudal villains. It is another to throw speech. down the gauntlet in challenge to the rule of the law itself." The Opposition wants the financial facts and details as to why the Government has selectively It is a fair indication that there should not be picked on a small group of public servants. We selective pay cuts and it should be up to an um- beli.eve that the Government will agree to the pire to make a decision and not a Government national wage case which will result in a four per totally biased by this time. cent increase for public servants. It will cost the What would happen if a company were to go to Government,' I would imagine, in the region of the Government and say it had economic diffi- $55 million. On the one hand the Government culties and could not afford to pay wages and so it says it must take $11 million from public servants wanted to reduce certain wages by 10 per cent, and on the other hand it says they can have a some by five per cent and others by two per cent? wage increase of four per cent which will cost in What would the Government say to this? Many the vicinity of $55 million. companies would argue that they- Hon. J. M. Berinson: Do you believe the freeze Hon. Peter Dowding: Or a company that re- should continue indefinitely? trenched its workers. What did you say when you Hon. G. E. MASTERS: I do not believe that at were Minister? all. Perhaps this legislation should be deferred Hon. G. E. MASTERS: What Mr Dowding is until the Budget papers are brought forward to saying is that ir a company wanted to cut wages enable us to determine whether it is justified. I he would act as he does now and blow a fuse. have serious doubts. There is conflict when the What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the Government says it needs SI I million and then gander. agrees to a national wage increase which could If the Government is prepared to take action incur expenditure in the region of $55 million. I those companies and groups in private enterprise think the Government members would understand will have to take the same action. I wonder what that $11 million from $55 million leaves $44 sort of statement Mr Dans would make if some million. 1304 1304COUNCIL)

Hon. Peter Dowding: Under which section are Hon. G. E. MASTERS: It reads as follows- you referring? It should not be section 21. Despite public claims to the contrary the Several members interjected. Government has no vested interest in Hon. G. E. MASTERS: I wonder whether this undermining the employment or income se- policy will be used again as a future source of curity of the Public Service on which it de- savings for the Treasury. I am asking whether, in pends so heavily. fact, the Government will project this Bill into the H-on. J1.M. Ilerinson: The letter does not refer future and use it for the same purpose. to the meeting. Hon. J. M. Berinson: The answer is. "No". Hon. G. E. MASTERS: I am asking why the Hon. G. E. MASTERS: I want an absolute as- Government did not consult with the CSA. I surance. make the point that the Minister's second reading Hon. J. M. Berinson: Absolutely no. speech made reference to the wages freeze and Hon. G. E. MASTERS: I accept that if the said that if the Government did not introduce this Hon. Joe Berinson says "No" the matter will be Bill the wages freeze would have to continue for decided by a court or the Industrial Commission another 12 months. That, of course, is quite mis- and that the Government will not refer to the dis- leading. We all know that much more than $]1 tortion of relativities. That is of help if Mr million would be raised if that were the case. It Berinson says that the Government will not make would be something in the vicinity of $115 judgment in relation to distortion of relativitis- million. There is no question that the wages freeze Hon. J. M. Berinson: The legislation has a life could have been continued for more than six of 12 months and no longer. weeks, give or take a week. It could have been continued and would have solved the problem that The Hon, 0. E. MASTERS: -l am pleased the Government is trying to resolve-if it is a about that. The interpretation of distortion of money matter, and I do not believe it is. relativities mentioned by the Premier and other members of the Government in this House is an I wonder whether the Government has con- issue and we have reason to believe that in 12 sidered that the people affected in the main are months' time it will be something that the single income earners. A survey carried out by the Government will act on. I am pleased that the Civil Service 'Association indicated that 71 per Government is giving us that sort of assurance. cent of the people who will lose 10 per cent of A letter dated 15 August 1983 was sent to their wages are single income earners. Did the every member of the Public Service. It is Government look, and will it be prepared to look, significant that I asked a question in this House at the double income earners? After all, many today of the Leader of the House as to whether in double income families could be earning between fact a letter had been sent to all public servants. I $50 000 and $55 000, but they will not be affec- also asked what was the cost. He said he would ted. Why did not the Government give consider- defer that answer. Perhaps the Leader of the ation to that matter? The Minister should not say House did not know what the cost of the postage that it could not be resolved. That is a silly state- would be, and that is understandable. However, I ment to make. The Government knows, and we have a copy of the letter with me. It is signed by know, that the situation could be resolved in that Brian Burke, Premier, and reads as follows- way. It is absolutely unfair that 71 per cent of the In fact, I have informed the CSA that the people to be affected by these cuts are single in- Government is prepared to permit an appli- come earners when people with much greater in- cation for a wage risc to proceed this year comes, bccausc of dual earnings, will not be affec- provided that any increase awarded operates ted at all. after the expiry of the Salaries and Wages I would have thought the Government would Freeze Act. have paid attention to this aspect. It should not I raise the point that, in fact, the Government is have tried to rush its legislation through without taking money away on the one hand and giving it proper consideration. on the other hand. I believe we should raise the Has the Minister considered the overtime fac- question again and should ask why there has been tor? It is clear from statements made that the no consultation with the CSA. After all that is the public servants who will be affected will not work representative body and it is abl to contact its more than the required number of hours, and that members quickly. any hours over the time that they db work will be I-on. J. M. Berinson: Would you read the overtime hours, and they will claim overtime pay- introductory section of the letter? ments. We all know that the senior public 5cr- [Tuesday, 23 August 19831 101305 vants work days, nights, and weekends whenever a want to argue that it is not fair to continue paying Minister, or the Government, asks them to do so. them"? That is the question we should be asking. Hon. Peter Dowding: And they continue to do The Government should be putting that to the SO. umpire and allowing him to make a decision. We should not be put off by the smokescreen from Hon. G. E. MASTERS: The amount of work pursuing the intent that they do is remarkable. of this legislation. By interjection, Hon. Peter Dowding: And their loyalty con- the Attorney General said that tinutes. the legislation will definitely not continue beyond 12 months. It is true that the legislation contains Hon. G. E. MASTERS: Their loyalty is being a sunset clause; but I have a few doubts about dented by people like the Minister for Mines who that. It is exactly the same as the clause in the has no regard for them. Not many people would wages freeze legislation; but I ask the Minister to take their private secretaries into their offices and give us an assurance that the sunset clause will get rid of the public servants. apply to the whole Bill and not just to clause 6 to Hon. Peter Dowding: We have a great deal of which it relates. We want an absolute guarantee confidence in them. that, after 12 months, the legislation will not con- Hon. G. E. MASTERS: The Minister has not tinue. demonstrated that. He has put his private sec- We are entitled to a full explanation of the retary into his office. He has demonstrated that guidelines relating to the decision made to exempt he has no confidence in the Public Service. certain people, and not to exempt certain people. Hon. Peter Dowding: I have a number of public Some odd things must be going on there. By look- servants in my office, It would be very hard to ing at the Bill, I cannot determine how the fault their loyalty, so do not talk rubbish. Government arrived at its decision. I cannot Hon. G. E. MASTERS: That is a typical understand, for example, why the Chief Industrial example of this fellow and what he will do. He Commissioner has not been included in the says all sorts of things in this House, and goes exemptions. I cannot understand why the mem- outside and dots something else. bers of the Workers' Compensation Board and the supplementary board have not been included. H-on. G. C. MacKinnon: He had to send a After all , their salaries are not funded by the senior public servant to Bunbury to settle the Government, and would not be a saving to the strike. Government. Maybe the Government has a Hon. G. E. MASTERS: I ask the Minister reason for this; if so I would like to hear it. We handling this Bill if the Government has con- know that the Government is after the tall poppies sidered the overtime factor. Many public servants but, after all, it must have some reason for taking work long hours. I know that the Hon. Peter these people into account. Dowding says that they still do, and no doubt they Perhaps we should ask why the Public Service will continue to do so. They are absolutely loyal and devoted to their jobs. A number of public ser- Arbitrator has not been included in the exemp- vants in certain areas have suggested that they tions. I ask the Minister handling this legislation will claim overtime payments. If a large number if he will give us reasons for those decisions. Obvi- of them do that, surely the savings that the ously we will raise them at the Committee stage. Government is trying to make will be decimated, The Commonwealth funds a number of people and it will receive no value from this at all. It is and part-funds other people. The Government has quite possible that many of the public servants included academics in the exemptions, and per- will say, "We want overtime or we won't work". haps it has good reason for that because of Com- The Minister handling the Sill should direct his monwealth funding. A large number of people in mind to that question. the Department of Agriculture, for example, and Why is the Bill selective? Is the distortion of many people in the Public Health Department. relativities the prime consideration; is it the are funded completely or partly by the Common- redistribution of wealth; or is this really a finance wealth. Why are some included, and not others? Bill? In his second reading reply, I ask the Minis- I now deal with clause 4. Mr President, I am ter to tell us why the Government has not been running through the Bill so that we can receive prepared to take the economic arguments to the answers from the Minister and I will raise these umpire. Why has the Government not been pre- matters further in Committee. We are cautious pared to take this matter to arbitration and say, and doubtful about the powers that the Treasurer "The distortion of relativities is too great. We is to be given. In many cases, he will have absol- want to argue that it is unfair, and therefore we utely unlimited power; and, quite frankly, we do 1306 306[COUNCIL]

not trust the man any more. He has broken so breakthrough? Is this the wedge in the door? Is many promises that we cannot believe things will this the opportunity for other applications and be as they should be. Can we rely on the other requests for weekly earnings to be con- Treasurer to follow the intent of ibis legislation? sidered? We want an assurance that that will not We certainly will not give him any loopholes to be the case. At the most, the award rate should be use, because he will use them if he has the oppor- considered. tunity. I will raise with the Government one other mat- The Treasurer will have the option of ter. The Opposition believes it is unfair that a per- interpreting the Act in whatever way he likes. He son who works part time should be subject to a 10 will have the ability to make an interpretation, per cent cut. A part-time worker could be working and to make a judgment on a person's financial part time for a number of reasons. It may be the hardship. Who will really decide financial hard- only job he has: it may be that the job offers part- ship? I know that in another place the Treasurer time work only. Perhaps there is simply not said that he will receive the information from enough work for a person to be employed full people applying for an exemption on the ground time. A person whose part-time rate matches that of financial hardship. He gave an assurance that of a person working full time for $30 000 a year he would deal with those matters himself: but that will lose 10 per cent of his pay. A person working is ridiculous. It is really silly for the Treasurer to part time earning $15 000 may be liable to a 10 say that, and it is silly for the Minister handling per cent reduction. That is unfair, and I cannot the Bill to repeat it. follow the basis of that argument. The people af- If 100 or 200 applications are received, no one fected by this may work part time for various person-not least the Premier-would be able to reasons, and it may be the only job that they have take the time to look at all of the information that anyway. will be put forward. People will have to bare their In the Minister's second reading speech, he said souls and give full details of their financial pos- that he accepted the voluntary offer of the ition. Information on hire-purchase and commit- judiciary. We would like to know whether that is ments relating to mortgages and bank loans will really the case. We want an assurance that all of have to be given to the Treasurer so that he can the members of the judiciary actually volun- study and evaluate the claims. It is not possible teered. Did all of them volunteer, or did two or for the Treasurer to do that. I wonder who will do three of them have to be coerced? We want to it. Will it be his advisers? In fact, the Govern- know whether that is a true statement. ment might have to appoint one or two special ad- We want to know when the wages freeze is visers to do so! likely to end, because it has an effect on this legis- Hon. V. J. Ferry: I think they probably would. lation. We want to know whether superannuation Hon. 0. E. MASTERS: We want an expla- entitlements for Public Service officers will be af- nation on this matter. We do not want the fected. Will they suffer a loss as a result of this Treasurer to be judge, jury, and everything. We legislation? We want to know why the Minister are anxious about this proposal in the Bill. said, in his second reading speech, that the wages A precedent has been set in the workers' com- freeze would need to be continued for 12 months pensation area. In fact, the Government is now if the legislation were not brought forward. I do proposing in this Bill to consider weekly pay- not believe that. I made the point earlier that that ments. Weekly earnings are quite different from is a ridiculous statement to raise. We want to award figures. Under the Workers' Compensation know exactly what the Minister meant by that and Assistance Act, workers' compensation earn- statement. ings are calculated on award wages. All of us We consider this legislation to be ill-considered know that many people believe weekly earnings and bad. All of us have looked at the Bill, and we should be considered, although they may be quite have had a degree of difficulty with some of the high-perhaps 40 per cent or 50 per cent higher drafting. I do not know what genius put it all than award rates. I know that in this case it may together; but he must have had a tin of worms in be necessary for weekly earnings to be considered; his head. Some of the clauses do not seem to but the Minister should tell me why. The Bill sets make sense; I am sure that the Hon. Joe Berinson a dangerous precedent. will have difficulty in explaining to the House Certain union leaders have brought pressure to exactly what they mean. bear, saying that the award rate should not be The procedures indicate that the Government paid for workers' compensation, but payment will have a dictatorship over its employees, with should be based on weekly earnings. Is this the the precedent set in this legislation. It makes a [Tuesday, 23 August 19831I30 1307 farce of the arbitration system. The legislation it came from Mr Piantadosi, who has now been makes ridiculous the Government's statement rewarded. about consensus and conciliation being the order Mr Burke at that time used to make the most of the day and that harmony and goodwill would outlandish statements about genuine workers in influence the work force. the Metropolitan Water Authority whose job it We have seen consensus in the comments made was to see that dirty water did not get past the in- tonight by the Government about distortion of spection points. He maligned those workers relativities and redistribution of wealth. In fact. viciously, so viciously indeed that a number of the Hon. Mr Kelly asked what was wrong with them rang the then president of the union and that; of course, he supports those concepts. complained bitterly. The 12 months will not be the end of this. The This legislation is a clever piece of work be- precedent has been established, and the trend is cause it is a smokescreen to cover all the increased just beginning. This is a preview of what the charges the Government has introduced. Tonight Government intends to do in the coming months we have seen Mr Dowding virtually apoplectic and years, if it is in power. and trying to shriek across the Chamber, appar- The Opposition will demand, and has the right ently trying to help Mr Berinson, Mr Berinson to demand, proper answers and explanations be- being one member who needs help the least in this fore giving its support to the second reading of place. When someone says something about this Bill. charges which gets up the nose of Mr Dowding, he nearly has apoplexy and gets up and expects us HION. G. C. MacKINNON (South-West) to take all that he goes on about. He has set so [10.45 p.m.]: I listened with great interest to Mr many shocking precedents that this Chamber has Masters, who gave one of the most thorough sum- unfortunately seen fit to put up with, that perhaps mations of a piece of legislation that I have heard the rumour is correct that he is getting ready to for a number of years. He framed his words very move to another place. Everyone who hears the carefully. To say that I was worried enough be- rumour practically rushes off to church and offers fore about this legislation is to say very little up prayers that it is true. He is obviously keeping about how I feel having now heard Mr Masters' in practice. comments; he managed to double and redouble my worries. Hon. D. K. Dans: He may be the next Governor. I can take my mind back to the Depression of the 1930s. I lived in the country in those days and Hon. G. C. MacKINNON: The Government I know that it was not all that uncommon that at would not inflict that upon us. We previously had the end of the Offertory in country churches the the Dunstan experience in South Australia. I do clergymen would find themselves with insufficient not believe the Government would do that. Mr money to cover their own stipend, and they would Dans has really shocked me; I am practically then without reluctance and chest-beating once speechless. again send around the plate. Were I a caricaturist Hon. Peter Dowding: You would have to curtsy I might draw our present Premier with his collar to me then. back to front sending the plate around again, be- Hon. G. C. MacKINNON: I will comment on cause that really is what he is doing. a few matters that Mr Masters did not touch. This is not an unpopular piece of legislation; Hon. Peter Dowding: Wearing drag, too. the great mass of people believe it is fairly popu- Hon. G. C. MacKINNON: I do not regard this lar, because the tall poppies are a pretty easy as a taxing measure, and so therefore I do not group of people to shoot at. Indeed, we have actu- think it can pass legally as a Budget Bill. This is ally seen some of these tall poppies voluntarily another part of the camouflage. It is a popular lying down and playing dead; in other words, measure to a lot of people. being prepared to throw their money into the kitty. I greatly admire them for that. My recollection goes back to the days when people used to say of one Benito Mussolini, "He is This is a clever political gimmick if ever I have doing a lot of good in the south of Italy; he has seen one. I do not want to go over all the promises drained the swamps". made by the Government about not increas In charges. However. I point out that I was on t he Hon. Robert Hetherington: He drained the receiving end of a great deal of vituperative com- Pontine marshes. ment when I was Minister for Water Supplies. I Hon. G. C. MacKINNON: Mr H-etherington well remember the present Premier waving a would probably be the only man old enough to re- bottle of dirty water. I know where it came from; member. 1308 1308[COUNCIL]

This is a very dictatorial action by the Govern- like this, how will it salve its conscience next week ment; there is not the slightest shadow of doubt or next month? about that. We must bear in mind that we have some Hon. Peter Dowding: Is that why it is before people advising this Government who have less Parliament? political knowledge and experience than do some Hon. G. C. MacKINNON: This is why I say of our very newest members. These advisers have that everything Mr Masters said is true. The Bill not been long in the business, and one must be in negates all those things that the Australian Labor the business for a while to understand the political Party used to stand for. Members opposi te are ramifications of such a measure. One must have now social democrats and they do not stand for read some political history. I regret that too few the same things any more; they are a different people read the political history of this and other kettle of fish. This really is an example of their countries. I am shocked at some of the reputable hallmark and their keystone. people I know who have taken up good positions as advisers to the Labor Party and who would It is easy to pick the members opposite who lend themselves to this sort of measure. really dislike this measure intensely. So that they will not be maligned in Caucus. I will not name I hope, trust, and believe that some of them ad- vised against it. because it wili have some shock- them, but they are easy to pick up by their any interjections. We all know who they are. I ng ramifications. I repeat: I do not know of totalitarian form of Government that did not start There is no way that this measure would not off with the full acceptance of the people. There is have been screamed at with genuine anguish by no way that this Government will have that. Let members of the Australian Labor Party had it us face it, we are making prize asses of ourselves been introduced by the coalition Government. in the international view, anyway. We have a They know what I say is the absolute God's gospel population of 1.4 million and we must have more truth. They would have talked about it in this politicians and advisers to run what is a reason- Chamber the whole night; they would have called able sized city than any other State in the world, it arrogant and dictatorial. Were Ron Thompson let alone a city State, which we are. However, the still here, he would accuse us straight out of being salaries of all the top brass have suddenly been Fascists and Nazis. Members opposite know that cut. to be the truth as surely as I am standing here It is all very well to redistribute wealth, but speaking. members who have done a study of the history of I was absolutely horrified to find that the taxation know that the whole system is designed Government had chosen Mr Berinson to handle to redistribute wealth; that is what the taxation the Bill in this Chamber, because he would know system is about. Suddenly we have a totally new that minorities, particularly successful minorities, way to redistribute wealth. can be attacked with virtual immunity. Again, Hon. Peter Dowding: You are a real conserva- this Bill would not have been introduced by the tive. You just don't like change. Australian Labor Party of old and it shows that members opposite are social democrats. Members Hon. G. C. MacKINNON: I have seen more opposite have often said that they are the only change in my life than Mr Dowding is ever likely political party in Australia to have lasted for as to see in his. At least I have wide vision; anyone long as they have, but that is rubbish because who can accept this sort of stuff must have tunnel members opposite no longer represent the Aus- vision. tralian Labor Party: rather, they represent the The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Hon. D. J. social democrats. The Australian Labor Party Wordsworth): I ask the member to direct his com- would never have introduced this legislation in ments to the Bill. days gone by. Of that there is not the slightest Hon. G. C. MacKINNON: I would like to do shadow of doubt. so, and, indeed, I am talking about the attitude of [I is my intention to vote against the Bill be- mind which goes to formulating this sort of legis- cause I do not believe it is a taxing measure. Of lation. I am not talking about the individual course, I will be accused of all sorts of things, and clauses of the Bill, because the second reading de- it is easy to accuse someone with a name like bate is supposed to give members the opportunity Graham Charles MacKinnon. People will say I to deal with the philosophy of the legislation. am just hungry for the money. I am not, but be I heard Mr Dowding's speech. He did not re- that as it may I wonder just what the next step alise that the actions he took when he was in Op- will be. If a political party can salve its conscience position would reflect on him when he was a Min- to the point that it can be persuaded to take a step ister. When the chickens come home to roost on [Tuesday, 23 August 19833 130930

his head and do the sorts of things that chickens ing in mind that he had just had such a massive normally do, the Minister screams and rants and pay increase. I have not been in quite as exalted a raves and turns everything into turmoil. The Min- position as that, but I have been close to it. I ister did not even have enough vision to see what know a Minister is too busy to spend what he he was setting himself up for, but in making these earns and he is lucky if he can just keep up with moves, he may be training to leave here and per- his normal expense allowances. Therefore, a fornm in another place perhaps. reduction of this nature would really be no ter- I wonder if any thought has been given in the ribly great hardship. compilation of the Bill to the creation of wealth. A particular attitude exists in regard to this Certainly all the members here will lose S3 500. 1 legislation which I feel I must mention-, that is, its was absolutely fascinated when the newspapers effect on the Civil Service as a whole. To some ex- referred to Mr Burke's magnanimity in accepting tent, particularly when times are difficult as they a 15 per cent pay cut. Had I had the same sort of are at the moment, it is quite realistic to compare experience Mr Burke has had, I would have been our operation to that of a military exercise. Brian pretty happy with that situation. Burke is the commander of the troops and it be- We get $34 000, give or take a little and, of hoves a commander to keep his troops in good course, we do not get any expenses. In today's heart. So far as the general public are concerned, money-not when he was a back-bench mem- I have already said that I think this is a very skil- ber-Mr Burke was earning $34 000 prior to his ful exercise and I congratulate those responsible elevation to Leader of the Opposition on a salary for its instrumentation and Organisation. How- of 354 500. As Premier his salary increased to ever, for those who are part of the deal-those $71 000. H-e will then lose 15 per cent, that is, who are to have their heads chopped off-it is an 310 789, which leaves him with approximately abysmal exercise. $61 000. That is not bad. I think I might have The body of the Government-the working said I would be prepared to accept another five troops of the Government-is the CSA. The per cent reduction in salary and really get front members of that association traditionally back up page coverage in the newspapers. MrT Burke prob- a system which helps the Ministers and we have ably did, but perhaps he could have got full front seen them estranged in a way I have never seen page coverage. anywhere previously. I was very sorry-i think The people towards whom I thought the news- most people must have been-to see the civil ser- papers might have shown a little sympathy were vants marching on Parliament House. I have been the fellows who were earning $55 000 plus allow- the recipient of that sort of treatment twice: it oc- ances for a motorcar, telephone, and a few other curred once on the part of the pure water people expenses like that, who suddenly dropped to when I took steps to fluoridate the water supply $34 000: and then, by an arbitrary stroke of the and it occurred also in relation to scientologists pen, lost another $3 500, and yet do not grizzle. when I was instrumental in banning their organis- Most members have just accepted the position. ation. They marched up to Parliament carrying They might have raised a few arguments in prin- placards and screaming for my body and every- ciple about it, but it has been rather well ac- thing else. It is terrible for people who have a re- cepted. gard for Government to see the Civil Service turning on it. Hon. Tom Stephens: What, the change of Government? I think it is a terrible thing, because I have been part of a Government. I will not ever be part Hon. G. C. MacKINNON: No, this arbitrary, of a Government again, but any young man who arrogant, and dictatorial reduction in pay which saw that, regardless of his political affiliations, the Government seeks to make without reference must have felt very sad indeed, because these to any tribunal. were the people on whom the Government relies It is no good saying the people concerned have at all levels. They are the people who meet the enough money. Nobody has enough money. For customers at the front desk; they are the people one reason or another everybody's expenditure who advise Ministers and talk to members of Par- rises to meet their incomes to some extent and a liament. They comprise the body, heart, and soul number of people in the Civil Serice have young of a Government and by this inept, dictatorial ac- children and families to support with all the ex- tion they have been estranged. I do not know how penses that that entails. much they have been estranged. I have not found I thought it quite incredible that the Press any wheel-barrow loads Of secret documents that should have given any sort of coverage to the have fallen off the back of a truck coming reduction proposed to the Premier's salary bear- through my door yet. 1310 1310[COUNCIL]

We have seen enough problems in recent years HON. ROBERT HETHERINGTON (South- in relation to leaks of confidential documents East Met ropol itan) [ 11.08 p.m.j:. As a mem ber ofr from the Civil Service. It is of no use saying we the Labor Party I support the Bill. It is the kind should not have secrecy. That is what one says of Bill a Labor Party would bring in, and since when one is in Opposition and one does not have this is still a Labor Party, of which I am a mem- any consideration for the future. Of course there ber, it has been brought in by a Labor Party. I must be confidentiality in 101 things. was sorry to be out of the Chamber during part of That is why so many members when they be- the speech of the H-on. Gordon Masters. come Ministers must swallow their words about Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: It was a good speech. secrecy in Government. They have confidential in- Hon. ROBERT HETHERINGTON: I will formation that must remain confidential. Surely read it with great interest, but I am sure chat his some sort of esprit de corps and some sort of mor- concluding remarks were not good whatever his ale of the people upon whom we rely must be opening remarks were. Towards the end he maintained. A Minister sends questions to be started to talk about so-called dictatorships and answered by these people and expects to receive he threatened the House with what would happen intelligent replies. in the future. Despite what might have been said about civil Hon. Fred McKenzie: It was the same all the servants in this country. I know they are good and way through. do what they want to do which is to muck will not Hon. ROBERT HETHERINGTON: This is a up the answers in order to spoil the system-they onte-off piece of legislation to solve a specific have more concern for the country than that. problem. It is not legislation that I support with Nevertheless, their attitude is a side issue to this joy. I wish it were not necessary, but I believe it is legislation, which the social democrats will live to at this time. When it was put before me I con- regret. sidered it cautiously. because I too remember the Having started on this track there will be some- Depression with its Premier's plan and the 10 per thing else, and then something else. I have seen it cent cut across the board, but now is not then, and happen before and I am sure it will happen again; this legislation is designed specifically to reduce we will see the plate sent around again to get a bit the salaries of a select group, a group the Govern- more money to fill the Government coffers. ment can control. This measure is quite wrong in principle. Other Hon. A. A. Lewis: Yes, the Government can ways are available to the Government to obtain control them. revenue, but to obtain it in the way it intends is Hon. ROBERT HETHERINGTON: The wrong. Most, if not all of the technical answers Government cannot produce legislation to reduce have been provided by Mr Masters, but this is not the salaries of other members of the community. a small piece of legislation. One of the important points of this legislation is Whipping the heads off tail poppies is literally that the Government upon coming into power a national pastime in Australia and we have de- found that its Budget had been committed to spaired about the speed with which it is done. No other areas by the previous Government. doubt exists in my mind that the social democrats Hon. G. E. Masters: It has been spent by the have shown themselves as adept at the Government in areas about which the Hon. D. K. redistribution of wealth, and I look forward with Dans will not give us details. despair at the absolute certainty that they will show no proclivity whatsoever for the creation of Hon. ROBERT HETHERINGTON: I believe wealth. Without the people who work to get the honeust pcople on this side of the House, who themselves into the $30 000-plus bracket the rest give me the information they do. of the community would have a pretty poor look- IHon. G. E. Masters: We haven't been told any- out; and in particular my sons and the sons of thing. other members who have not got that far yet, Honi. ROBERT HETHERINGTON: I happen would have a pretty poor look-out. to believe these honiest people, the people who run it is my intention to vote against this legislation this Government and who try to do their best for because I have seen similar legislation before. I this State in this time of grave economic diffi- have seen this sort of action start off to do good culty. If members opposite do not believe the for the people, but I never believed in it. I saw it Government and want to argue by casting per- as a kid, and from my experience in war and out sonal insults, let it be. Certainly the Hon. Gordon of war, I did not believe in it. I have no respect for Masters was good at that in the past; some of his this sort of attempt at this stage of our lives. actions as a Minister were not worthy of consider- [Tuesday, 23 August 1983] 111311 ation. I will not go into those matters; I will ex- hit some other people in our economy who have plain why I support the legislation. been sacked, or whose firms have just folded up. The important point is that we have this one-off Other people in the community are suffering piece of legislation because we find ourselves more. When I hear about what we are doing to raced with a deficit as a restult of Government the civil servants, I am also aware of the fact that funds already committed by the policies of the in my electorate we have to get food parcels for previous Government. We have had to find extra people who have not enough to eat. That is thc money or let Government services go down the stage our economy has reached and that is what drain. It is a pity we did not bring in the cuts a the Government is trying to do something about. little further down the wage levels. Although that We are in a parlous and perilous situation where would have hurt more people, we would have been we have to try to do something about it. Just im- able to save more jobs in the Public Service, a agine that in Western Australia today it is necess- saving which would have been highly desirable. If ary to get food parcels for people who have not we are faced with the choice of either bringing enough to eat. That is a shocking state of affairs. about pay cuts or sacrificing necessary services, I When I hear how badly we are treating one sec- know what is the best decision to make, and we tion of the population, I am aware of what the have made that unpalatable decision. downturn of the economy is doing to other sec- tions of the population. I was a little amazed by the odd letter or two I received from public servants who told me that I am very sympathetic to some of the people they were belittled by the Government's decision. who have been affected, particularly members of They said the Government did not appreci.ate the Police Force who have spent many many them, otherwise it would not have adopted this years to get where they are. If this proposed Act was intended to last more than 12 months I would course. Needless to say, such a thought is non- sense. As members in this House know, I have probably oppose it. I looked at the Bill very care- always been one to defend in this House our Pub- fully and very cautiously. lic Service, and I will continue to do so. My salary Hon. Neil Oliver: Can you repeat that? will be reduced by 10 per cent, to which I do not Hon. ROBERT HETHERINGTON: I said I look forward for myself, but my self-esteem and looked at the Bill very carefully and very cau- self love have not been damaged by this Bill. I do tiously, and finally I was persuaded that we not think the Premier thinks less of me or less of should pass it. his team; I do not think he thinks we are not Hon. A. A. Lewis: Re-endorsement had nothing worthy. to do with it? The Premier has had to adopt this one-off Hon. ROBERT HETHERINGTON: No, re- course but has found no great joy or pleasure in it. endorsement had nothing to do with it. That is a Having decided it is necessary, he has followed it. contemptible, contemptuous statement, but it is Some of the arguments I heard as I came into the kind I have grown to expect from the honour- the Chamber tonight I had heard ad nauscani in able member on my right since I have been in this another place; the arguments seemed to circle House. round and round. Although there will be a one per Hon. A. A. Lewis: Why pick on Mr Stretch! cent to 10 per cent cut in the salaries of some Hon. ROBERT HETHERINGTON: We need people, the CSA will be able to go to the Indus- not bandy that sort of insult around the House. I trial Commission once the wages freeze legislation am talking about a serious subject. lapses, and in the meantime any pay increase as a result of the national wage case decision will be Hon. Neil Oliver: How about talking seriously, passed on. That wages freeze legislation was then? brought in by the previous Government, and it Hon. A. A. Lewis: You are caucused and you will lapse at the set time, unless we repeal it, know it! which I do not think we will do. We certainly ex- Hon. ROBERT HETHERINGTON: It may pect that a national wage increase and other arbi- interest the honourable gentleman to know that I tration increases will be allowed; the CSA like accepted the Bill before we went into Caucus, so everybody else will be able to go to arbitration to whether I am caucused or not, I take full re- have the wage levels restored. sponsibility for the views I am uttering right now. I know it will hit some people hard; there is no I always have done so and I will continue to do so. doubt about that. Nobody is predicting that it will because, after all, I am in a principled party and I do anything else, but it will not hit the people who act usually from principle. will have their salaries reduced as hard as it has Hon. A.-A. Lewis: Good. 1312 13I2[COUNCIL]

Hon. ROBERT HETHERINGTON: People even though some of them are annoyed or cross may disagree with what I am doing but I am with us, the civil servants- certainly not a person who would lend himself to a Hon. P. G. Pendal: Annoyed? That is an under- kind of first step into taking away people's rights statement. Hon. Gordon Masters or the as suggested by the Hon. ROBERT HETHERINGTON: It may or Hon. Graham MacKinnon and as will, no doubt, may not be an understatement. I have spoken to be suggested by the Hon. Sandy Lewis when he some public servants who do not feel quite the gets to his feet. He will huff and puff, no doubt, same way. Their views vary from place to place. Hon. A. A. Lewis: Will you let me make my The House should support this Bill. Despite what speech? the Hon. Graham MacKinnon says, I know this is Hon. ROBERT HETHERINGTON: I would not technically a money Bill, hut it is part of the be only too happy to let the honourable gentleman Government's budgetary proposals. It is part of a make his is own speech but I have a rough idea of total proposal where we are trying to balance the what he will be talking about. deficit and keep services going. We are trying to Hon. A. A. Lewis: Get your speech over with. do the best for the State. We are trying desperately to employ temporary Hon. ROBERT HETHEIRINGTON: I hope measures because of the deficit and the policies the honourable gentleman is nearly finished with we inherited, before we can get our own priorities his asinine remarks because I can do without into place. For this reason we have had to put this them. temporary Bill forward. It is not a Bill that takes Hon. A. A. Lewis: That is your view. away, as I have already pointed out, the right to Hon. Neil Oliver: Dispense with the platitudes. arbitration. It is not the beginning of something Hon. ROBERT HETHERINGTON: Listen to worse. It is a one-off temporary measure. who is talking. Hon. V. i. Ferry: It is that all right-O per The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Hon. D. J. cent! Wordsworth): Would the member please direct Hon. ROBERT HETHERINGTON: The Bill his remarks to the Chair? will allow the normal arbitration process to take Hon. ROBERT HETHERINGTON: place. It will restore the full power of the salaries Certainty, Mr Deputy President. It is a pleasure reduced at the end of the 12 months which the to speak to you. Bill covers. It is none of the things I have heard said about it. It is a measure which has been care- Hon. Neil Oliver: Watch it! fully and sensibly considered. It is a temporary Hon. ROBERT HETHERINGTON: I noticed measure which is in the best interests of the State in the Hon. Graham MacKinnon's speech when and 1 therefore support it. he was going all over the place that he brought HON. A. A. LEWIS (Lower Central) [ 11.23 forward good and bad points. The honourable p.m.1: We have at various times in this House gentleman always makes a pretty good speech heard a lot about mandates. We have heard why from one point of view, but he makes a lot of the Labor Party was elected to Government. Be- emotional gestures such as that the top brass will fore commencing with the body of my speech. be cut in two-well, really! I would have thought may I congratulate the Hon. Cordon Masters and that with some of the top brass on $57 000 a year the Hon. Graham MacKinnon on two gems of it would hardly be called being cut in two. small speeches. My speech may not be as short, Hon. Neil Oliver: Tell the Premier that, will but I do not think anyone will be in any doubt you'? about my feelings on the Bill when T have fin- Hon. ROBERT HETHERINCTON: Why ished. I quote from the ALP policy document as should I tell the Premier that? follows- Hon. Neil Oliver: Just do it. Simply, the next ALP Government in W.A. will do a better job than the current Hon. ROBERT HETHERINGTON: He Is government, without the confrontation. quite intelligent. He can work it out for himself. The ALP's concern, and initiatives, in the Hon. Garry Kelly: He knows it is not being cut industrial relations field have received satu- in two. ration coverage from publication of the Hon. ROBERT HETHERINGTON: He Green Paper to seminars, conferences and knows it is not being cut in two. He knows we are media scrutiny. Support has come from all not being vindictive towards the civil servants. He areas with the consensus viewpoint that the and the Hon. Graham MacKinnon know that, ALP proposals will remove the confrontation, [Tuesday, 23 August 19831 131311

aim at full employment and maintain com- the Minister handling this Bill has been placed. munity standards. He has gone against the Labor Party policy which Later, the document reads as follows- was promised to the people about equity, justice, and arbitration. The Government continues to The next ALP Government will adhere to make light of the promises that the public ac- this consultative process and seek consen- cepted in good faith. sus-mployers and unions will be expected to do the same. I refer now to a letter written to a public ser- vant by a Minister and I quote- When an agreement is reached immediate steps will be taken to implement it if, despite The Government is unlikely to face a exhaustive effort, there is disagreement in tougher decision than its recent move to whole or in part and resort to independent in- reduce the salaries of senior public servants. quiry is not appropriate, a report of each or- That is an interesting statement. It was not a de- ganisation's position and views shall be made ferred decision. The letter continues- to Parliament. The reductions have been forced on us by On Industrial Arbitration the next ALP the extremely difficult financial position Government will amend the Arbitration Act facing the State in the next year. to promote consultation as the prime method That does not say very much about the things to of dispute settlement and wage and employ- which the Hon. Robert Hetherington referred; the ment conditions determination. In so doing so-called deficit which has been proved wrong. It the ALP recognises that the existence of an is like the tobacco tax; the Government claims arbitration system is essential to good indus- that a certain amount will be raised as a result of trial relations as long as it reflects the prin- legislation but it backed off when it was given the ciple of justice and equity and that one side, right figures. The letter continues- employer or union, is not weaker than the other. It was a decision of sheer economic necess- ity. That is a marvellous mandate-a Parliament with justice and equity. The policy goes on to say that What rot' Here is a paragraph that could have there will be no discrimination in the work force been written by some facetious twerp, certainly and that democracy is permitted in the workplace. not a Minister of the Crown. It reads as follows- Like everything else this Government has done it I realise that it may be bitter medicine for has broken all the creeds of this book-the man- you and your colleagues in your Department date for it to govern and the mandate of industrial to swallow. Having taken a 12% cut myself I relations. This Government has, in every area, know the feeling and I can hardly come for- continued to break its promises to the people in its ward like the doctor who says "This won't manifesto, if nothing else. hurt a bit." I refer to the question I asked of the Leader of Really, is that an answer to give a senior public the House on 27 July which reads as follows- servant? The ALP members sitting in their seats Does he believe that if both parties accept are shocked that one of their Ministers should the decision of any wages or salary tribunal, write to a senior public servant in this vein. It is this decision should be adhered to until one not a funny matter and there need be no smiles or other of the parties approaches the about it. He continues- tribunal for some change? All I can ask of you is to please bear with The Hon. D. K. Dans replied. "Yes". us through these difficult times- The Leader of the House is obviously in conflict One would think he was in childbirth, the way he with the Minister handling the Bill because no- goes on! It continues- body, to the best of my knowledge, has ap- -and so help the State to be in a strong proached the Civil Service Association or mem- position to benefit from an expected upturn bers of Parliament in their haste to bring this in world trade. legislation forward. It would seem to me that this The Minister has become an economic expert. House is here to review legislation. Unlike mem- The letter continues- bers of the Labor Party I have always attempted to do that. I have never been caucused on an'y This won't be an easy year for any of us- matter or told how to vote. I have had good argu- No-one knows that better than public servants ments put to me, but I have never been caucused and members of Parliament after this effort. It or placed in a situation similar to that in which continues- (42) 1314 1314[COUNCIL]

-but there are encouraging signs in the sorts of things because they are not truly an Aus- world's economy. tralian Labor Party- He goes back to being an economic expert. It con- Hon. N. F. Moore: Are they not democratic tin ues- socialists? In the meantime, there may be some Hon. A. A. LEWIS: I do not think there is any- financial relief in the September National thing democratic about them. Wage decision. Hon. N. F-. Moore: You are calling them social We still have not heard whether the wage freeze democrats. is on or off. If we left it for another six weeks Hon. A. A. LEWIS: Mr Hetherington said it none of this nonsense would have occurred. The hit some people hard but not as hard as those who letter continues- have had the sack or whose firms have folded. I I know you are being asked to shoulder a have had three approaches from people who are heavy burden but many others in the com- likely to lose their houses. They had been pro- munity also have to tighten their belts. moted and could see further promotion, and be- They are top public servants. It continues- cause of their borrowings it was possible they would lose their houses unless they tightened their Please be patient and in any case or ex- belts hard. I know they can apply for an exemp- treme hardship you are free to apply for tion, but nobody in this community who has risen special exemption. to the level of being a civil servant on a rate of Welt, that is lovely, is it not? One would not have $29 500 and above wants to say, "I have bor- thought that a Minister of the Crown could write rowed and made plans for the future, and please a letter like that to a senior public servant in his Sir, would you exempt me?" as though he was department who would know more about what is asking the headmaster whether he could go to the going on in the department than this Minister will toilet. ever know. The public servant has spent a lifetime That is the sort of position in which this in the Civil Service and he has been written to by Government is placing civil servants, and mem- an obnoxious young Minister in those terms. It is bers of Parliament for that matter. I am not sure degrading, to say the least. However, it is typical whether I will be queueing up to ask for an of the ALP's attitude towards public servants and exemption. It seems to me the Government has people in the community. It likes to degrade. We not thought this through. As Mr Masters said, the on this side of the House do not want to lower Bill is very shoddily drafted. I wonder what the ourselves to the standard of the ALP-the broken Hon. Peter Dowding would have made of it if we promises and the knocking of first-class public had brought in a Bill like this. I will not rant and servants. rave as he does, but I am sure that if he were in I refer to the comments made by the Hon. Opposition and we had brought in this Bill we Robert Hetherington-not in any great detail, but would have had a tirade for ages. he referred to the grave deficit that has become a I asked a question about job opportunities and myth of the ALP. He has not been able to sub- the effort made by the job creation unit, and I stantiate the fact that the figures are wrong and was told it had created some 140 jobs. Where did that there is no deficit. The ALP did not take any those jobs come from? of the figures into consideration and it shouted Hon. P.OG. Pendal: The Government's advisers? and screamed before it did its homework. Hon. A. A. LEWIS: No, we are going to pay Hon. J. M. Berinson: You are simply wrong. for the advisers after the event. Hon. A. A. LEWIS: I am simply wrong! The The only jobs created by the job creation unit Hon. Joe Berinson cannot read figures. He should came from the wages pause. This Government's stay with his legal work and not add up figures. job creation unit has not created a single job, if I The Government bungled the tobacco tax as it has am to believe the answer I received-and some- everything else it has touched and it is now times I tend to be a little disbelieving. bungling this Bill. Hon. P. H. Wells: Not one job in Five months? Mr Hetherington made great play of the fact that he has always defended public servants until Hon. A. A. LEWIS: Yes, 140 jobs, all from the now. He told us he was convinced before he went wages pause. And this Government is so keen on into Caucus that this was the best way of hand- getting jobs for people. ling matters. To return to the Hon. Graham We heard about the party of principle from Mr MacKinnon's comments on the social democrats Hetherington. Can we talk about the ALP and and the fact that they are now accepting those principles? ft has broken promises on just about [Tuesday, 23 August 1983] 111315 everything in its manifesto;, "Bunbury 2000", in- the provisions of the temporary salary dustrial relations policy, price increases, and every reduction legislation. section of the manifesto. The Government is tear- Already we see a wedge between one group and ing it into little bits; it will be confetti before long. other public servants. The article continues- The Government is tearing up its mani.esto as it 2. If so, will the base figures for percentage is tearing the State. increases be taken as salaries before the cuts Hon. Lyla Elliott: Like Sir Charle.s Court or after them? Will the same apply to in- promised to solve unemployment in six months. creases through the national wage case? Hon. A. A. LEWIS: Does the IHon. Lyla Elliott ANSWER: The present proposals to be think two wrongs make a right? embodied in the legislation make provision Hon. Lyla Elliott: I do not remember you com- for movements in wages and salaries awarded plaining about that. by industrial tribunals to be based on the sal- ary that would have been paid if there had Hon. A. A. LEWIS: Would Miss Elliott like been no salary reduction. me to refer to Hansardand show her where I did complain about it? I am not like the Labor Party; This means that where an increase is I do not sit speechless and obey without question awarded by an industrial tribunal, for my leader's command. As she knows, I happen to example, in re-restablishing. nexus with NSW have a reputation of getting up in this place and teachers or in relation to a national wage arguing with the Government, whether it is of my case decision, the money amount by which colour or another colour. The ALP cannot throw salaries are increased will be equivalent to such comments at me-they can but they will not the increase that would have applied in the absence of any salary reduction. stick-about following the party line. We are talking about getting one section of the Mr Hetherington said it was a temporary community to pay the piper and yet a break- patch-up measure. That sounds right when one through already has been made, as I read that considers all the ALP's broken promises and the answer. Schoolteachers will be able to take the terrific waste of granting rises in other areas and total of their increase above the salary cut. I won- of trying to support some of the matters it prom- der how the Minister looks at the salaries of mem- ised in its manifesto. It is interesting that the ALP bers of Parliament. I hope he knows how our puts a line between workers. I notice the Hon. salaries are based and what our tribunal rec- Peter Dowding nods his head. He believes there ommended. I hope he knows on what basis our should be a line between workers. He wants to tribunal made its judgment, and I hope he will ex- separate workers and one class from another. It is plain to us how we will catch up in following typical of the man; he would not go and face the through 90 per cent of the Federal Government's people of Bunbury. He sent his chief public ser- tribunal award. vant to do all his dirty work for him. That public servant should receive a pay rise instead of a pay "Catch up" is the Labor Party phrase. Is that cut for putting up with the Minister and for doing not what Mr Dowding and Mr Bans have done his dirty work. Most Ministers do their own dirty with people over the last few months? Was that not a catch up? work. They do not crawl out sideways and try to get out of their nasty responsibilities. Are members or' Parliament not to be granted any raise in salary for 18 months? I am sure the Let us look at some of the answers given to Minister knows the answers to my questions and I questions by another Minister. I refer to the would like an answer from him, either when he schoolteac hers. I have heard Mr H-etherington say replies to the second reading debate, or during the a number of times we have high class school- Committee stage. We have a right to know the teachers and I have agreed with him. He is pre- answers. pared however to cut their salaries. Let us look at the answers Mr Pearce gave to the WA Education I am not one of those who is bitterly opposed to News. Following are the questions and replies- the community as a whole taking a reduction in salary to benefit the community as a whole. How- 1. Will teachers whose salaries are cut be ever, I do not believe any section of the com- eligible for pay increases through the re-es- munity should be singled out for a vicious attack tablished nexus with NSW tea chers? such as this. It is very interesting that nobody ANSWER: Yes. The increase in salaries from the Trades and Labor Council has realised in relation to re-establishing a salaries nexus its members could possibly be the next to suffer a with NSW will apply in full to all eligible Government attack. This Government has not Western Australian teachers notwithstanding stuck to its word since it has been in power, Who 1316 1316[COUNCIL] is the next person on the Government's list? What That gentleman is quite right when he goes on to tradesman will receive a cut in his salary? Per- say the Bill isan attack on our democratic system, haps it will be the principal of a school, who does by trying to limit savings to one particular area. not live up to the beliefs of the ALP. Are the two- I am glad that Mr Dowding finds this amusing. income families, with a combined income of more I wish to question further the Government's atti- than $29 500, the next on the list? Why is a tude on the matter of salary cuts. Why, when single-income earner any different from a family some of us took a voluntary pay cut, did Mr with two incomes? The same amount of money, or Burke, Mr Dans, and Mr Dowding not also take a more, may be coming into the house of a two-in- cut? come family, yet they are unaffected by this legis- Hon. V. J. Ferry: That question is a bit embar- lation. rassing for them. I thought the Labor Party believed in the fain- Hon. A. A. LEWIS: It is extremely embarrass- fly unit. We have heard many lectures from Mr ing. Why did not Mr McKenzie, Miss Elliott, or Hetherington on this subject. Obviously, at this Mr Brown take a pay cut? Will that voluntary stage, the single-income earner is the one who will pay cut be taken into account on this occasion? be crucifIied. Will those of us who took a voluntary pay cut for Members have received many letters from con- nine months be compensated on this occasion by stituents in the weeks leading up to the having a pay cut inflicted on us for only three introduction of this legislation, and I am sure months? Or, having made our sacrifice these letters have been quoted in many places. It once-which members of the Labor Party were was interesting to read a comment from the not prepared to do-are we to make another sac- National Economic Summit. John Leard, Manag- rifice? No answer is the stern reply! ing Director of Australian National Industries Hon. V. J. Ferry: You had better explain it Ltd. made the following comment- again. We are not going to get out of our prob- Hon. A. A. LEWIS: No, I know the Attorney lems without some sacrifice and some re- General knows some members took a voluntary straint on the part of all Australians-and I pay cut, but that there was no wage restraint on would emphasise 'all"-because at the pres- the part of members of the then Opposition. ent time that sacrific is being borne mainly Members of the Labor Party were asked to join in by the unemployed, the low-income earners, voluntary wage restraint but no, the matter was and by those businesses which are going into not considered important enough in those days. Now, apparently, it has become extremely im- bankruptcy. portant. It is very interesting that there is com- To that group we can now add the public ser- plete quiet from members of the Government. vants. Hon. J. M. Berinson: Interjections are out of All Governments, of whatever political colour order. try to do something about the unemployed, and Hon. A. A. LEWIS: Especially when try to establish an income base which is satisfac- interjections are irrelevant. Mr President, the tory to even the low-income earners. Of course, Government is not giving us any answers about not much can be done about bankruptcies. This what is going to happen to these people. Government, by its polities and its continual at- Many people are curious as to this change of tacks on businesses, will create more bank- attitude on the part of the Labor Party. Why ruptcies, day by day. Between Hawke and Burke, would ALP members not accept wage restraint on we have the business bashers. We have a -bash the last occasion it was put forward whereas they business" Government in power today. I find my- appear keen to accept it now? Why should we be- self wondering whether the Government has not lieve members of the Government, any more than said, "We have been bashing business. We had they believed Sir Charles Court, when he better get on to the public servants as well". suggested we impose voluntary wage restraint One continually hears about this Bill being a upon ourselves? Budget Bill. In this context, it is interesting to Hon. V. J. Ferry: At least he did not inflict it read the following quote from a letter I received upon public servants. protesting about the Government's legislation- Hon. A. A. LEWIS: 1 hope the Minister TO attempt to save $11 million, or less intends to answer my query. than 'A per cent of a total Budget of 52 400 Hon. Tom Knight: It happened twice did it million hardly qualifies it as a Budget Bill. not? [Tuesday, 23 August 19831 131731

Hon A. A. LEWIS: In the case of some people, Berinson is shaking his head; I am glad that he it happened three times. will give all the answers. It is very interesting that the Government never Hon. J. M. Berinson: I will do my best. discussed this proposal. Strangely enough, when Hon. A. A. LEWIS: Mr Berinson will do better the Premier was conning his friends in the media, than his best, because this is an extremely import- in the process of raising Government charges, he ant Bill. He knows how important it is, and I did not mention this legislation. know how worried he is, in his own heart, to have The Premier did not say, "Some people have to bring this horrific legislation into the House. I taken cuts before. We as a Labor Party never know he is ashamed of having to do that, and have, but we now believe we should legislate, not ashamed of the Government to which he belongs. only for the members of Parliament, but also for He could not be the man I think he is and not be the whole ambit of civil servants earning above ashamed of bringing this sort of legislation into $29 500". Of coarse, that was leaked the night the House. He should have left it to the junior on before the charges were increased; so that an- his right. We accept that he does not honour what nouncement topped the headlines. That was a he says he will do. good piece of PR; but I would not regard it as This is draconian legislation. We are here to de- honest. In fact, it was dishonest. feat bad legislation, and I could not support this In the same way, the Government squi rms legislation in any way. The Government can say it about its manifesto and its broken promises. It is a budgetary, or money Bill or anything else it seems that there is no reason for the Govern- likes, but I would not support it in any way. If the Government ment's attitude. I am sure the Minister would like keeps bringing up this hogwash, me to read the letter from the Civil Service As- there is no way I could vote for it. Very little legislation brought by the Government sociation to me, and outline the areas in which the to this place is not a budgetary measure! dispute falls. The letter reads as follows- I understand a budgetary measure to be one the abolition of jobs in the government sec- that deals with expenditure by the Government, tor of employment and its effect upon the and not the cutting of expenditure. This measure provision of services expected by government is cutting the Government purse, and I would like and the public; the Attorney to give me an "illegal" opinion on it. the denial of the right to have our salary I know he is not allowed to give me opinions, but claim proceed to arbitration; perhaps he will give a political-legal opinion on it The Government has told us it will allow that to and tell me how he could claim that this is a happen. Will the Attorney give us an assurance budgetary measure. that that will be allowed to proceed to arbitration, I could not Support the Bill in any way. Nobody or is this another promise that the Australian in his right mind could support it, and I urge all Labor Party will break? members of the House-members of the ALP in- In the letter, reference is made to the use of cluded-to oppose the Bill completely. legislation to interfere with industrial awards and agreements. Is this the first time that has hap- Point of Order pened? Will Mr Dans step in the next time that Hon. TOM STEPHENS: A document has been an agreement is made and say "No, we won't quoted from, and the document has been clearly allow it"-the same Mr Dants who believes that identified under standing Order No. 151 (a). I re- the umpire should always be right? quest that the member immediately, at the con- The Civil Service Association has been ex- clusion of his speech, table the document. The document was referred tremely patient. Mr MacKinnon spoke about its to, and the Hon. A. A. Lewis identified the letter as one from a Minister members marching on Parliament House. I sup- to a public servant. pose members of Parliament should have joined them and marched, but perhaps they did not ask Hon. A. A. Lewis: Sure. us because we looked a little too portly to make it Hon. V. J1.Ferry: You can have my copy, if you up St. George's Terrace. However, I assure them like. that we support them. Hon. A. A. Lewis: How many copies would you It is interesting that the Government will not like? answer, It would not answer in the lower House, The PRESIDENT: I will make sure that I and in this place it will attempt not to give any understand the point raised by the member. The answers to the questions it has been asked. Mr Standing Order requires the honourable member 1318 (COUNCIL] speaking to identify the document at the lime it is The PRESIDENT: I agree with the honourable quoted from. member, and I rule that the document ought to be Hon. TOM STEPHENS: The document was tabled. The honourable member has agreed to clearly identified in the course of the speech, so I table it. did not think it was necessary to ask him to ident- The document was tabled for the information ify it any further. I thought that Standing Order of members. No. 151 (a) (i) had been complicdl with. The member identified it as a letter fram Minister to Debate Resumed a public servant. Debate adjourned, on motion by the H-on. Fred Hon. A. A. LEWIS: I understand the Standing McKenzie. Order, and I will table it. House adjourned at 12.03 am. (Wednesday). [Tuesday, 23 August 1983J131 1319

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE (8) Does the Government's refusal to under- write the company now mean the ori- AGRICULTURE: PROTECTION BOARD ginal $2.5 million granted several years ago has also been cancelled? Staffi Replacement Policy (9) Is the Government aware that because 198. Hon. H. W. CIAYI'ER. to the Leader of of the original guarantee the company the House representing the Minister for outlayed many hundreds of thousands of Agriculture: dollars for obsolete Midland abattoir (1) Because of Government policy that for equipment on the basis of the guaran- every two staff positions vacant in tee? Government departments only one pos- (10) Due to the rejection of the guarantee ition will be filled, what effect will this would the Government now accept re- have on the coverage of the State by turn of this equipment plus any costs the Agriculture Protection Board District company may have borne together with Officers? the equipment the company has pur- chased for the project? (2) (a) Which districts will be affected by the deletion of staff; and (11) How can the Government justify a $3.1 million loss for Robb Jetty which has a (b) in what manner? limited export licence, and not be pre- Hon. D. K. DANS replied: pared to back Esperance Meat Ex- (1) Some districts will not have a resident p6rters Ltd.? Agriculture Protection Board District (12) How radically would the company have Officer but will be serviced from adjoin- to alter its operations before the Govern- ing districts. ment would consider granting the (2) (a) and (b) One vacancy at Merredin guarantee requested? and another in the lower south-west area (13) Does the Government consider it has will not be filled. any obligation to the company because Other districts affected will depend on of its $400 000 expenditure made on the vacancies and future policy. basis of the original guarantee? (14) What basis is there for saying that only 50 per cent of saleable sheep rrom the district would pass through the GOVERNMENT GUARANTEE Esperance Meat Exporters? Esperancc Meat Exporters Ltd. (15) Is it correct that the Esperance office of 200. Hion. TOM KNIGHT, to the Minister for the Agricultural Department says the Mines representing the Minister for Econ- figure should be 57 per cent? omic Development and Technology: (16) Why has the Government not considered (1) Did Esperance Meat Exporters Ltd. it reasonable that Esperance Meat Ex- have a Government guarantee of $2.5 porters buy from other areas of the million? State? (2) If so, did the company ask for an in- (17) Is the Government aware of the freight crease to $3.2 million to cater for in- cartage advantages of the backloading flation rises since the guarantee was first of sheep to Esperance because of live approved? sheep trade to the metropolitan area? (3) On what basis was the company's re- (18) Did the independent study look at turn- quest rejected? off figures from the eastern goldfields districts where surplus sheep could be (4) Did an accounting Firm do a feasibility available from the 360 000 sheep in study or critique on the company? these areas? (5) Ira critique, is this a fair basis for rejec- (19) Was reference made in the report to tion? power and water at normal prices being (6) Did the Government extend the a subsidy for Esperance Meat Ex- investment to a period of five years or porters? more from commencement? (20) Has the "independent study group" been (7) If not, why not? involved in a paid consulting capacity 1320 1320[COUNCIL]

with another WA abattoir which could was omitted from the Legislative Coun- be disadvantaged with the works at cil list. This was not a matter of policy Esperance? and no slight was intended. Constituents (21) If "Yes" to (20), could the company of Legislative Council members should carrying out the study still be classified not be disadvantaged and the matter will as an impartial group? be rectified in the next issue. There was Hon. PETER DOWDING replied: no additional cost caused by the new format. (1) to (21) The question asked by the mem- ber is very detailed. The Minister for 215. This question was postponed. Economic Development and Technology will provide the answers in writing. MINERAL SANDS: INDUSTRY 209. This question was further postponed. Inquiry: Membership MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT 216. Hon. V. J. FERRY, to the Attorney Gen- Telephone Book: Entries eral representing the Minister for Health: 214. Hon. NEIL OLIVER, to the Leader of the With reference to question No. 28 of 27 House, representing the Premier: July 1983- (1) Have all the members of the in- With reference to the new issue of the quiry committee been appointed? Perth White Pages Telephone Directory, page 39- (2) If so, what are the names and quali- (1) Did the State Government Infor- fications of the members? mation Centre authorise the change "on. J. M. BERINSON replied: in the manner in which the Minis- (1) Yes. try and members of Parliament (2) Professor Murray Winn, B.Sc., M.Sc., telephone numbers are inserted? Ph.D.-Chairman. (2) Why do the Speaker, former Dr John Matthews, Research Officer of Speaker, Ministers and previous Ministers of the Assembly, still re- the ACTU-Victorian Trades Hall tain the designation "honourable" Council, Occupational Health and whilst no similar recognition is Safety Unit. granted to their counterparts in the Mr Alan Tough, Managing Director, Legislative Council? Allied Eneabba Limited. (3) Why were those members of the Legislative Council whose entries STATE FORESTS: PINE were changed from the previous book not consulted before such Boyup Brook and Cranbrook change was implemented? 217. Hon. W. N. STRETCH, to the Leader of (4) What action will the Government the House representing the Minister for For- take to ensure where errors have oc- ests: curred, constituents can ex- Is it the Government's intention to plant peditiously contact their elected pines on private land in the Shires of representatives? Boyup Brook or Cranbrook? (5) Was the protocol officer in the Hon. D. K. DANS replied: Premier's Department consulted? The planting of pines on private land is (6) What additional cost, if any, was currently being investigated by the involved in the new format? Manea committee and the Centre for Hon. D. K. DANS replied: Applied Business Research of the Uni- (1) to (6) Wide consultation occurred on the versity of Western Australia. production of the new format which was The Shires of Boyup Brook and designed to provide easier access to Cranbrook are close to the climatic Government Departments, the Ministry limits of the preferred species, pinus and members of Parliament. Due to an radiata, and would have lower priority oversight, the designation "honourable" when selecting land for planting. [Tuesday, 23 August 19831 121321

INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS: DISPUTE Hon. D. K. DANS replied: Perth Meat Export (WA) (I) The construction of a breakwater, pro- 218. Hon. G. E. MASTERS, to the Minister for vision of a service jetty for the pro- Industrial Relations: fessional fishermen and a launching ramp for joint use by the professional (I) Has the Minister for Industrial Re- fishermen and boating public. lations or the Government received a re- quest from the TLC to support a move (2) Construction of the breakwater is 90 per to quash charges brought by the Perth cent complete. Meat Export (WA) against trespassing Construction or the launching ramp has pickets at Osborne Park some 18 months commenced. ago? (2) Was the request verbal or written? Construction of the service jetty is scheduled to commence in November (3) Have any discussions whatsoever been held by the Minister or Government 1983. with the Perth Meat Export (WA) or a (3) No. representative of Perth Meat Export (WA), referring to charges laid? (4) Answered by (3). (4) Has there been any correspondence involving the Government or Govern- GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS AND ment departments dealing with the INSTRUMENTALITIES charges laid? Glossary (5) If so, will the Minister table the corre- 220. Hon. W. N. STRETCH, to the Leader of spondence? the House representing the Premier: Hon. D. K. DANS replied: (1) I am advised approaches have been In view of the bewildering profusion of made to the Government by the Trades departments and agencies, and the pref- and Labor Council in relation to section erence for understandable English 82B of the Police Act. language in the Parliament- (2) The approaches have been both written ()Will the Premier have his Govern- and verbal. ment prepare and publish a diction- (3) Yes. ary/glossary or all such organis- (4) Yes, as in (1) and (2). ations that operate under some (5) No. form of initials (e.g. SILDAC, SILDAC "C", CAWS)? FISHERIES (2) If "Yes" to (I), can a copy be sent Hopetoun: Facilities to each member, electorate office, 219. Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH, to the and other concerned people? Leader of the House representing the Minis- Hon. D. K. DANS replied: ter for Works: (1) and (2) It is acknowledged that such a (1) What proposals were projected by the reference would be helpful, but as the previous Government for the develop- member would no doubt appreciate ment of the facilities for the unloading there would be a tremendous amount of of fish and for the launching of boats research and compilation time involved used in the fishing industry at in the preparation and maintenance of Hopetoun? such detail, which, with existing (2) At what stage are the projects today? financial constraints is not possible to (3) Is the present Government changing the undertake as additional starr would be budgeting policy of these works? required. (4) If a reduction in funding is being made No such dictionary/glossary was pro- at Hopetoun, are increased funds pro- duced by the previous Government dur- posed for facilities to be constructed in ing its nine years in office. the "Sunbury 2000" region? 1322 1322[COUNCIL]

PUBLIC WORKS: DEPARTMENT (b) Donnybrook: Country Areas Water Supplies: Act (c) Boyup Brook: 221. Hon. A. A. LEWIS, to the Leader of the (d) Darkan; House representing the Minister for Water Resources: (e) Wagin; Is it the intention of the Government to (f) Narrogin; amend or alter in any way the Country Areas Water Supply Act? (g) Dumbleyung; Hon. D. K. DANS replied: (h) Esperance: Yes. (i) Geraldion; SUGAR INDUSTRY: ORD RIVER U) Mr. Tom Price; and Federal Attitude (k) Wiluna; 222. Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH, to the and I8July 19839 Leader of the House representing the Minis- on 18 February 1983 ter for Agriculture: (1) Is the Minister aware of the sentiments Hon. D. K. DANS replied: expressed by the Deputy Prime Minis- It is not possible to provide the details as ter and Minister for Trade, Mr Bowen, at the exact dates specified. The pre- at the NSW Labor Party Conference vious Government requested the Depart- held on 13 June this year where he ment of Consumer Affairs to survey pet- stated that farmers' stand on free trade rol prices in certain nominated country -was laughable"? town just prior to the State election. The (2) Has the Minister found that these senti- nominated towns included only ments are reflected in the Federal Esperance and Geraldton of the towns Government's attitude to a sugar indus- for which the member has now re- try on the Ord River? quested information. I can only assume (3) What is the current attitude of the Fed- that the previous Government was not eral Government to the production of concerned about the price of petrol in sugar at Kununurra? the other towns. It should also be re- (4) Can wheat be imported into Australia membered that the Shell Company of cheaper than it is currently marketed Australia took action immediately after locally? the State election but before the present (5) Is the New Zealand meat industry sub- Government took off-ice resulting in the sidised? retail price increasing by at least two Hon. D. K. DANS replied: cents per litre. The Government then (1) Yes. took action under the Prevention of Ex- cessive Prices Act to redress that situ- (2) No. ation. (3) The Minister is aware that the Federal Government has expressed opposition to The Department of Consumer Affairs the growing of sugar at Kununurra, but has information on petrol prices during this does not reflect the attitude of the the month of February 1983 and also State Government. has information on recent petrol prices. (4) No. This information is provided below. (5) Yes. TOWNS FEBRUARY RECENT FUEL AND ENERGY: PETROL (a) Manjimup 44 .9-49.6 45.8-47.8 (b) Donnybrook 44.9 45.2 Price: Country Towns (c) Boyup Brook 48.9-49.9 48 .0-49.0 (d) Darkan 47.5 46. 5-46. 9 223. Hon. A. A. LEWIS, to the Leader of the (e) Wagin 49.2 47.-9.0 House representing the Minister for Con- (f) Narrogin 46.9 46.9-47.9 sumer Affairs: (g) Dumbleyuing 47.9 46.1 What was the price of super grade petrol (h) Esperance 47 .9-48.5 (i) Gerald ton 47. 5-49 .9 46.1 in the following towns- Uj)Mt. Tonm Price 48.9 48.3 (a) Manjimup; (k) Wiluna 56.5 [Tuesday, 23 August 19831I32 1323

DECENTRALISATION Hon. PETER DOWDING replied: Country Businesses (a) and (b) Government Ministers must travel 224. Hon. MARGARET McALEER , to the frequently on the business of the by the Leader of the House representing the Deputy State. This practice was adopted Premier: previous Government and will be con- tinued. (1) Does the Government have a policy of I refer the member to the answer given decent ra lisartion which includes support for small country businesses? by the former Premier to question 1043 of Thursday, 12 August 1982. His com- (2) If so, would the Minister consider the ments remain valid and apply equally to advisability of allowing country hospitals Ministers' staff as to Ministers. and other State instrumentalities situ- ated in country areas to purchase their All travel by Ministers and staff is requirements locally? closely checked to ensure that travel is Hon. D. K. DANS replied: kept to a minimum. (1) The Government has a policy of support As considerable research will be re- for country businesses. The policy is put quired to extract and collate the infor- to effect through its programme of as- mation, I am not prepared to place any sistance to industry and its Government further demands on staff who are purchasing policies and in fact, the otherwise fully committed. SBAS Ltd. currently- However, should the member have any (a) has business counsellors regularly reason to believe that travel of an un- visiting country areas; authorised and unnecessary nature has (b) provide the BIZPHONE telephone been undertaken, then he should let the counselling and information service Premier know. The Premier will have to country inquirers, from anywhere the claims investigated. in WA, at the cost to them of a local call; TOURISM (c) conducts seminars for small Spencers Brook- Wundowie Railway Line business owners, at the request of and in association with local organ- 226. Hon. W. G. ATKINSON, to the Leader of isat ions. the House representing the Minister for Tourism: (2) The question of Government purchasing procedures is presently subject of a com- Further to question No. I172 of prehensive review. Selected, appropriate Wednesday, 17 August 1983- tenders arc constructed in such a way as (1) Had contracts been let for removal to enable regional tenderers to partici- of the Spencers Brook-Wundowie pate in contracts of supply. It is the railway line? Government's intention to further ad- dress the matter raised by the member (2) If so, had work commenced to re- in the course of the review. move the railway? (3) If work had commenced, has work MINISTER OF THE CROWN: MINISTER ceased? FOR FUEL AND ENERGY Hon. D. K. DANS replied: Interstate and Overseas Trips (1) Recovery of assets from the railway was 225. Hon. A. A. LEWIS, to the Minister for to be undertaken by Westrail staff. Fuel and Energy: (2) Lifting of the railway had not com- Since becoming a Minister- menced, although some preliminary work was done. (a) how many overseas trips has he made, for what reasons and to what (3) All work has been stopped, pending con- countries; and sideration of a submission to the (b) how many interstate trips has he Government to retain the railway line made, for what reasons and to what for tourist excursion trips using steam- States? hauled trains. 1324 1324[COUNCIL]

TRAFFIC: COUNTS Both are on loan from other areas of the Collie-Roelands Road Public Service and are occupying the positions in an acting capacity. 227. Hon. A. A. LEWIS, to the Minister for Mines representing the Minister for Transport: LAND: NATIONAL PARK (1) Has the Main Roads Department con- Shannon River Timber and Wood Chipping ducted traffic counts on the Roelands Industries end of the Roelands-Collie Road? 230. Hon. A. A. LEWIS, to the Leader of the (2) I f "Yes", what has been the traffic load House representing the Minister for Forests: in each of the last three years? Further to question No. 129 of 4 August Hon. PETER DOWDING replied: 1983, will cutting of the remainder of (I) Yes. the hardwood area include road and (2) The only traffic count taken on this road stream reserves? in the last three years was in February 1981. At the junction with South West Hon. D. KC.DANS replied: Highway the traffic was 2 040 vehicles Subject to careful landscaping it may be per day. necessary to extend cutting to within 200 metres on either side of roads of JETTY lesser tourist importance. This was the Walpole width originally proposed in the En- vironmental Impact Statement for the 228. Hon. A. A. LEWIS, to the Leader of the Wood Chip Project. Extension of cutting House representing the Minister for Works: near streams will be considered only if Is the Government going to build a new trials indicate that it can be ac- jetty at Walpole? complished without detriment to water Hon. D. K. DANS replied: and fauna values. The Government has no current plans to construct a jetty at Walpole. Notwithstanding this, I can add that CONSUMER AFFAIRS: ACT several recent requests for such a facility have been received and are being con- Farm Purchases sidered in liaison with the other bodies 231. Hon. A. A. LEWIS, to the Leader of the who will be concerned with its funding House representing the Minister for Con- and management. sumer Affairs:

"BUNBURY 2000" Further to question No. 126 of 4 August 1983, what consultations has the Minis- Executive Officer ter had with the- 229. Hon. A. A. LEWIS, to the Minister for Mines representing the Minister for Regional (a) Tractor Machinery Association Development and the North West: and (I) Has anyone been employed as executive (b) Farm Machinery Dealers Associ- officer for the "Bunbury 2000" pro- ation? gramme? Hon. D_ K. DANS replied: (2) If "Yes", who? (a) and (b) In keeping with this Govern- Hon. PETER DOWDING replied: ment's policy of broad consultation I (1) Yes. convened a meeting which included not only representatives of the Tractor (2) Mr P. Beeson-Executive Officer Re- Machinery Association and the Farm gional Development, South West Devel- Machinery Dealers Association, but also opment Authority. representatives of the Pastoralists and Mr KC. G. Fisher-Executive Officer Graziers Association, the Primary In- "Bunbury 2000", South West Develop- dustry Association and the Deputy Di- ment Authority. rector of the Department of Agriculture. [Tuesday, 23 August 19831 121325

CONSUMER AFFAIRS: DEPARTMENT Hon. A. A. Lewis: You are misleading the Starr. Increase public. Hon. PETER DOWDING: It is easy to sit 232. Hon. A. A. LEWIS, to the Leader of the there and cat-call but- House representing the Minister for Con- sumer Affairs: Several members interjected. IHon. PETER DOWDING: Unaccustomed What extra staff is it estimated the De- as I am to this sort of behaviour in this partment of Consumer Affairs will need place- when farm products are brought within its ambit? Several members interjected. Hon. D. K. DANS replied: Hon. PETER DOWDING: I have already made it clear to the honourable member It is impossible to make any valid esti- that if he either supplies me with infor- mate until the amended Act is in force mation or draws my attention to state- and complaints are being received from ments which are inaccurate, I will farmers. certainly consider them. As I said last time he raised this chestnut, he can come to my office to discuss any matter QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE with me; however, he has not. INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS: DISPUTE If the m ember thinks anything which Perth Meat Export (WA) has been said is inaccurate, he should supply me with the necessary infor- 71, Hon. G. Ei. MASTERS, to the Minister for mation. I do not intend to have SEC Industrial Relations: officers wasting their lime on what could I refer to the Minister's answer to be a red herring. question 218: The Minister did confirm to the House that the Trades and Labor AGRICULTURE: MACHINERY Council had made a request to the Government to quash charges of Height: Letter to "Sunday Independent" trespassing against pickets I8 months 73. Hon. A. A. LEWIS, to the Minister for Fuel ago. and Energy: I ask the Minister what action has been Will the Minister for taken by the Government as a result of Fuel and Energy this request? answer my question? Hon. D. K. DANS replied: Hon. PETER DOWDING replied: No requests have been received by me I have, and if the honourable member personally. It is a question better ad- wishes to supply me with material dressed to the Minister for Police and which suggests any statement made to Emergency Services. If the Minister me or by me is inaccurate, I will have places the question on notice, I shall pro- the matter checked; but I will not waste vide the answer. public servants' or SEC officers' time until I have something to go on.

AGRICULTURE: MACHINERY MINISTER OF THE CROWN: MINISTER Height: Leiter t0 -Sunday Independent" FOR FUEL AND ENERGY 72. Hon. A. A. LEWIS, to the Minister for Fuel Overseas Trips and Energy: 74. Hon. A. A. LEWIS, to the Minister for Fuel Will the Minister ask the State Energy and Energy: Commission to recheck the Minister's How many overseas and interstate trips statements in a letter to the Sunday In- has the Minister made since he has been dependent of 20 August in regard to the Minister? height of agricultural machinery? The PRESIDENT: Order! That question is Hon. PETER DOWDING replied: out of order. The honourable member This is a bit of an old chestnut that Mr knows he cannot ask the same question Lewis has raised. that has already been asked.