Battle of the Bulge: An Eyewitness Account
An interview with Herbert Herzbrun By Aidan Wallace Instructor: Alex Haight Date: February 28, 2015
Table of Contents
Interviewee Forms ...... 3 Statement of Purpose ...... 5 Biography ...... 6 The Final Stand in the Ardennes ...... 8 Transcription of Interview ...... 18 Interview Analysis ...... 48 Appendix 1 ...... 51 Appendix 2 ...... 52 Works Consulted ...... 53
Interviewee Forms
Statement of Purpose
World War II was a devastating time for both sides involved. Many soldiers and civilians died fighting in battle or in air raids. However, the Battle of the Bulge became an example of an unexpected enemy: the weather. With nonstop snow for nearly the entire campaign, Hitler’s last attempt to push back the Allied forces saw the cold become just as dangerous an adversary as the German army. This interview with Herbert
Herzbrun serves as an eyewitness account of the Battle of the Bulge from a platoon sergeant’s perspective. Many first hand accounts of the War can only highlight the struggle against opposing forces, however Mr. Herzbrun’s unique involvement in this battle, allows him to discuss the struggles against harsh weather as well. The purpose of this project is to fully develop an understanding of the dangers of war other than the opposing army.
Biography
Herbert Herzbrun was born in 1919. He grew up in Brooklyn, New York with his parents and his two brothers, Jerry and Bill. Although Mr. Herzbrun was old enough to be drafted when the United States entered the war, it didn’t happen until a few years later.
He was drafted together with his two brothers, and even though they all went to fight in
Europe, they never saw each other there. Mr. Herzbrun was stationed in the Ardennes forest in France, the location of the soon to be Battle of the Bulge. Mr. Herzbrun rose to the rank of platoon sergeant, and found himself in command of anywhere from sixty to eighty men. He followed orders given to him with great respect for, and faith in his commanding officers. Never did he question the call to advance. Mr. Herzbrun remembers the extreme cold of the Ardennes Forest in the winter of 1944-1945, when the
Germans began their final offensive. After many weeks of fighting both the Germans and the cold, the Allied forces pushed the Germans back into their country, securing a victory against the Nazis. At this point Mr. Herzburn remembers, “We just celebrated. Anything we could find we were drinking.” (Herzbrun 36) He stayed in Europe like many soldiers did when the war ended, waiting for his turn to return home. He stayed in Brooklyn and
marveled at the fact that both he and his brothers had made it home safely. For many years after, Mr. Herzbrun worked as a cab driver in New York City. To this day he still keeps up with local baseball.
The Final Stand in the Ardennes
The Ardennes campaign was one of the last chances Adolf Hitler had to win the
Second World War. His decision to counter attack was daring, and would be remembered as one of the hardest fought campaigns during the war. The offensive was staged strategically during bad weather, nearing the end of 1944. Conditions were miserable.
Snow and cold killed many, and trench foot spread through the Allied front lines.
Supplies were limited and the dense forests hindered the mobility of both sides. The world watched as the Germans made their final stand in the Ardennes region of Belgium.
The campaign ended in defeat for the Nazis, and marked the end of the war in Europe.
Many historians consider it a mistake of Hitler to attempt such a daring plan, but at its onset, Hitler seemed to be unstoppable.
The Second World War was caused, in part, by the effects of the First World War in Europe. For Germany, one of the catalysts for their drastic change was the treaty of
Versailles. The country was not allowed to participate in its creation, because they were blamed for starting the war. In the treaty were agreements settling disputes over land. It was this debate over land that started the First World War, and the treaty hoped to reconcile it. However, also contained in the treaty were reparations to be paid by the
German government for their destruction in the war. The country’s government was destabilized during World War One, and was in no position to handle such debts. The combination of the large payments, and authority of the weak government, led to inflation on a massive scale. During the war, the Reich mark was not allowed to be
redeemed for gold. This gave the government an opportunity to print more and more bills, without people redeeming their paper money in an effort to stabilize their savings.
Many families turned to burning money because it was cheaper than trying to buy firewood. This massive period of inflation led the way for a new era in Germany.
This poor situation leads to the creation of a new form of government in Europe, called Fascism. Fascism was created in part by Benito Mussolini in Italy in the early
1920’s. He rose to power and became the leader of the country in 1935, where he implemented his new style of government. It called for supreme power from one ruler, who is in charge of unifying the people against their common enemy. The idea was that only conflict could unify a country. Regardless of whether or not the people’s enemy was an opposing country, many Fascist dictators looked towards war as the best means to unify their people. Fascism rose in three main parts of Europe: Italy, Spain, and
Germany. In Germany, Adolf Hitler became the savior of a struggling people. He was imprisoned for attempting a coup d’état to take over the weak government. While in jail, he wrote his famous book, “Mein Kampf,” which excited the masses. Not only were his views in the book radically new and exciting, but he had been greatly respected for his opposition to the poor government. He was released from jail as a very influential man.
Within ten years, Hitler had risen to become the Führer of Germany.
Hitler persecuted all those he thought to be against the National Socialist German
Workers' Party (Nazi Party). He especially sought out Jews, preventing them from holding positions of power, and not protecting them from abuse. Jews were allowed to leave the country, but only if they forfeited all their wealth and possessions. The Jews became the direct enemy of the German people. Hitler used the hatred of the Jews as a
way to unite the rest of Germany. He claimed that the only reason that Germans were poor was because the Jews were hoarding all the money. Although many people knew that this was not the case, they were happy to believe it, giving them something at which to throw their anger. Other countries did not approve of Fascism, but it was the treatment of Jews that got their attention. Hitler’s hatred of Jews was a leading cause of the next
Great War. The Second World War officially began with Nazi Germany's attack on
Poland on September 1, 1939, in an attempt to expand the German empire.
Two days after the German and Russian invasion of Poland, Britain and France declared war on the two nations. Poland was quickly captured, and Hitler set his sights on the rest of Europe. He captured countries such as the Netherlands and Belgium, which took a neutral stance on the war. He got little resistance from the Allied forces, and was able to force France to sign an armistice, which allowed Germany to control the northern half of France. Despite having control over a growing area, Hitler was never able to obtain Great Britain. He staged an air offensive on the island but was unsuccessful. This offensive would later be called the Battle of Britain. The Germans later captured Greece and Yugoslavia, and in a surprising turn of events in June of 1941, attempted to invade
Russia. The Soviet Union was a Nazi ally but Hitler had made the greedy decision to attempt to capture the country. The invasion was unsuccessful, and the Soviet Union became a strong participant in the allied force against the Axis.
In that same year, Germany’s eastern ally, Japan, bombed Pearl Harbor drawing the United States into the war. President Franklin D. Roosevelt would serve four terms, from 1933 to 1945, spanning nearly the entire war. He led the nation well during The
Second World War, leading to his unusually long presidency. Quickly, the United States
would become an integral part of the counter attack. The United States assumed a leadership role, based on its superior resources, weapons, and manpower. The aid from
North America would be needed, when, in 1942, the Allied forces began to fight back.
Allied air forces attacked the German city of Cologne in May of 1942. The Allied attacks for the next few years would be much like this. They would mostly include bombing of German production facilities, aiming to cripple the army, without engaging them directly. The Germans did the same. Both sides attacked factories, mills and large cities, in order to hurt the enemy’s supply. But after leading many missions into Britain,
Germany had lost many aircraft, and the constant shelling of German cities weakened their army. The Allies regrouped, and slowly began to encroach on the German territories.
Italy was the first to fall. The Allies staged an attack from northern Africa. They captured Sicily and quickly moved on to the mainland. The Italians, however, did not resist. The people had recently staged a coup d’état and had succeeded in overthrowing
Mussolini. They reorganized their government, banning fascism. They agreed to an unconditional surrender to the Allies, but the Germans in Italy did not. They held their ground and fought the Allied troops for a while, only to finally retreat to the northern sector of Italy, fully under German control. They would finally surrender in May of 1945.
Meanwhile, starting with the famous D-Day invasion on June 6, 1944, the Allies were beginning to push into the German lines in France. The invasion went well, and the
Allies liberated France in less than three months. They then pushed further into the continent. While chasing the Germans back towards Germany, the Allies had outrun their supply lines and were forced to go slower. This gave the Nazis a chance to escape. After
they had retreated to a safe distance, the Hitler made the bold decision to turn and attack.
Both sides had thought that this retread would mark the end of the war, but Hitler did not want to give up that easily. The attack would be called The Ardennes campaign, but would be known to most as the Battle of the Bulge.
After pushing back the German lines all the way from Normandy beach, the
Allied armies sent a few tired troops to the Ardennes region of Belgium for some rest.
This made it the perfect spot to stop and take a break. Many tired divisions, who had lost a great number of men, were stationed there. In addition to them, new recruits were being sent in from the US and Great Britain to undergo their first experience of war. Because of this, the Allied troops operating in the Ardennes were thinly spread, and not well prepared to fight. The Ardennes is a forested region on the Belgian-German border where few advances were being made mainly because there was not much to gain by controlling them. The region was very hilly, and the weather was often miserable. There was not much civilization in that area. The few villages, which were small and connected by only tiny roads, were not much help in supplying resources to an army. The heavily wooded and steep terrain meant that movement was difficult. It became obvious after a while, however, that the villages were important after all. Controlling the towns meant controlling the roads that lead into them, which provided efficient and direct transportation routes.
While chasing the Germans back towards their border, the Allies had outrun their supply lines and were forced to go slower. This gave the Nazis a chance to escape. After they had retreated to a safe distance, Hitler made the bold decision to turn and attack.
Both sides had thought that this retreat would mark the end of the war, but Hitler did not
want to give up that easily. Previously the Germans had staged an attack, taking two panzer divisions and clearing out some Allied encampments in the Ardennes, but had retreated soon after. Hitler decided that if he attacked there, where the Allied forces were few and tired, he might just be able to reach the city of Antwerp. Antwerp was an extremely important port for the Allies and if the Germans were to capture it, they would be rewarded with as much ammunition and food as they needed. Not only did Antwerp present some much-needed supplies, but if they could obtain it by advancing in a more or less straight line, they could split the Allied forces in half. From Antwerp, Hitler would decide what the next course of action would be, as it would mark a massive change in the course of the war. His best option would be to fight each separated side of the Allied force one at a time, and force them to retreat, or even to leave Europe. This would be a major blow to the Allies if he could do it.
His decision was very ambitious, and many of his subordinates were against it.
After hearing that his men had retreated past the Ardennes, Hitler nevertheless continued with his plan. However he did not have enough troops in the area to make this offensive work. What he needed was the support from almost a quarter of a million troops.
Although the German empire was being forced back from all sides, Hitler pulled troops from many other sectors to help in the push. He took divisions from all over the German border and concentrated them along the border of the Ardennes. He brought five panzer tank divisions to help in the later stages of the war, knowing full well that the dense forests in the Ardennes would easily cripple them. The result was a massive three-month planning stage during which troops and supplies were taken to their starting places.
Allied forces in the area were not unaware of the German troop concentration.
They had heard reports of Germans increasing the number of nearby tank divisions, but dismissed them as unimportant. The Germans could have either been trying to intimidate the Allies, or to stage a short offensive for the purpose of demoralizing the weaker troops in the Ardennes. Nevertheless, the Allies did not consider the magnitude of the planned attack.
Hitler waited for poor weather to ground Allied air attacks. He finally got it, and on December 16, 1944, he began his offensive. The Germans started with their newfound tactic of softening up the enemy before the invasion. They opened fire on Allied positions with every thing they had. They used more than 650 light, medium, and heavy guns, and
340 rocket launchers. But all they did was scare the Allies. Poor visibility and inexperienced gunners meant that the accuracy of the bombardment was usually very poor.
The Germans then followed with an invasion into the Ardennes. Troops stationed all along the border advanced, attacking Allied posts as they went. Most of the inexperienced troops in the front line fled because they were greatly outnumbered. The troops remained confused for a while, as generals tried to grasp hold of the situation. The
Germans took full advantage of this situation and very quickly moved forward. They did not, however, expect the Allies to put up such a strong fight. Many divisions, usually those supplied with tanks, were slowed down for hours by only small bands of men, who held out as long as possible. Despite having superior firepower in these situations, the
Germans preferred to only use infantry, to try to keep a low profile. The problem with that approach is that it took hours to capture a well-defended post. Most Allied resistance
were of no use as many were taken over by sheer numbers. The Allies heard stories of
German troops taking all captured prisoners and executing them in the nearby fields.
Although this did happen on occasion, many were simply made prisoners.
In a few short days, the Germans had advanced a considerable distance, but the stalling tactics of the Allies meant that they were far behind schedule. The German commanders were so confident that they could reach Antwerp in a few days that they only supplied their troops with what they would need for the short time. This meant that, despite being slower than expected, they also had to wait on supply lines as they ran out of food and ammunition. After a couple of days with little progress, it was clear that they would never reach Antwerp. Many had expected this, and so it was decided that they would reach at least the River Meuse.
The Allies we able to stop the German forces even before this point, and began to drive them back. By mid-February 1945, the Allied forces had taken back all the land gained by the Germans in the push. The demoralized German troops retreated deep into the country, and it only took a few more months until the war’s end.
Historians debate the greatness of the War, whether it was justified, and its impact on the countries involved. However the War undoubtedly shaped an entire generation of people. Tom Brokaw says in his book, The Greatest Generation, “It is, I believe, the greatest generation any society has ever produced.” He believes that the War produced and nurtured the greatest people. He could be correct, and many other historians agree with him. Stephen E. Ambrose says in his book, Citizen Soldiers, that the soldiers
“fought, and won, and we all of us, living and yet to be born, must be forever profoundly
grateful.” The legacy of the Second World War will live on with us forever, and to many it marked the highest achieving group of people in American history.
In other oral history projects witnesses of the event describe the living conditions during the campaign. When asked whether or not he had boots, Adam Stringham’s interviewee, Robert Jones, replied, “All we had were GI shoes. We were in the snow. It was the coldest winter in the history of Europe. We didn’t even have wool socks; just light summer rain socks or something. There were a lot of things like that. It makes me laugh when they say why the GIs did not have proper armor.” Despite being professional armies, the Allies and Germans alike lacked many necessities in the war. Although they were better supplied with fuel and ammunition, the Allies, especially the Americans, lacked proper clothing. In the damp snow and cold of the Ardennes during mid
December, many soldiers were diagnosed with trench foot, a condition of the feet caused by prolonged exposure to the damp and cold. It usually leads to poor blood flow in the feet, and in longer cases, to necrosis and gangrene. This stopped many soldiers from making marches in the snow, slowing infantry progress on both sides.
The Battle of the Bulge was well reported in the United States. For the entire war, the press had substantial coverage of the battles and major events. In a Washington Post article published on January 5, 1945, the author describes the previous days’ events. As of January 4, the Allies had begun their counter attack and were successful. The newspaper recaps major events including the relief of Bastogne. Americans were defending the small village from invasion and had become completely surrounded.
However General Patton was able to move his troops many miles from the south in order to aid the fight. Days later they would arrive and make a path to the decimated town,
relieving the tired troops. The reporting of this event, like many others found in newspapers, is cold and emotionless. The relay of facts alone was what the public wanted, and that is what they got. Reports on the War were factual like this for nearly every publisher
The Second World War is full of important battles and events, but it is the
Ardennes campaign, which proved to be the most critical. It was Hitler’s last chance, after being pushed back from Normandy beach, to attack the Allies and conquer land previously lost. The battle was fought hard in the cold forests of the Ardennes Region in
France. Both sides suffered substantial casualties due to the temperature as well as combat. Despite having little chance at winning the war, the campaign was fought brutally, and nearly became a massive German success. However the Allies were able to stand their ground and prevent the German advance. This campaign is significant, because it was Hitler’s last option, and he could not make anything of it.
Transcription of Interview Interviewee/Narrator: Herbert Herzbrun Interviewer: Aidan Wallace Location: Mr. Herzbrun’s home, Potomac, MD Date: February 11 and 12, 2015 This interview was reviewed and edited by Aidan Wallace
Aidan Wallace: [So tell me about your childhood.]
Herbert Herzbrun: [I had a brother] Jerry, a kid brother Bill. I’m a middle son. That I can remember.
AW: Alright so you are a middle son. You have two brothers is that correct?
HH: I’ve got an older and a younger one. The older one was Jerry, the kid brother Bill was… Bill.
AW: Do you remember where you lived? If you lived on the east coast or the west coast.
HH: The east.
AW: You lived on the east coast. Um, where did you go to school? Did you have a good education where you lived?
HH: That s a good question… yes I had a good education. I don’t know how far I went.
Or where. I went to school in Brooklyn… I think. I’ve got ____{0.50} on my mind but I
don’t remember if I went to _____. You would have to ask my daughter where I went to school. I got my- I lived in Brooklyn. I got family members Robin Roddy… that’s all.
AW: That’s all.
HH: I liven in Brooklyn. How far in education I don’t know. I went to Samuel J. Tilden
High School in Brooklyn. I was drafted…
AW: So were drafted. Do you remember how old you were?
HH: What would be an average age? I’d saw everything I tell ya... I’d be average age.
AW: Well the earliest age you could be drafted was eighteen, but we do know that people were drafted earlier than that. So they kinda slipped under…
HH: And they had volunteers
AW: They do have volunteers; people have enlisted… or did enlist.
HH: Ah I see what you got—Yeah I was in the Battle of the Bulge.
AW: do you remember when you enlisted? Do you—so the war started, officially for the
United States, on December 7th, 1941
HH: Pearl Harbor.
AW: Yep Pearl Harbor. Did you join up or were—Yeah were you drafted right after that.
Or did you go a year or two later.
HH: No I was drafted a while after. I don’t know how-- how much after.
AW: So obviously you went through basic training as part of being in the army. Did you take your training in the United Sates or did you take it in Europe.
HH: In the US.
AW: In the Us. Alright now we know—
HH: You are going so far back I don’t—
AW: You took basic training. We know you fought in the Battle of the Bulge, but before then were you taken to any other locations. For example if you fought in the Pacific or you fought in other places in Europe.
HH: I don’t think—I don’t believe so. Not that I can recall anyhow.
AW: so if you can remember back the Battle of the Bulge was December 16, 1944 to
January 25 1945.
HH: you got all my history on there?
AW: I’ve got the history of the battle on there. Just some basic stuff.
HH: Yeah that was a mess.
AW: Were you a member of the infantry or the air force.
HH: Infantry.
AW: you were in the infantry alright. So describe—
HH: I was a platoon sergeant.
AW: So describe to me, like, what you would do in that position as a platoon sergeant.
HH: well you gotta—you are in charge of a lot of men. Maybe about sixty, seventy, eighty. I don’t know how many men.
AW: quite a few right.
HH: yeah.
AW: you took directions from higher up and you delivered them to your men. Did you have any say in the directions you made or were you just carrying on orders from above?
HH: No you just listen when they told you what it was you listened and you did it.
AW: Obviously the Battle of the Bulge was fought in the middle of France in the
Ardennes Forest, during the winter—
HH: December ’41 I see
AW: Yep it snowed most of the time.
HH: It was cold.
AW: Cold all the time. How were you supplied? When you went out did they give you enough supplies of any kind?
HH: You got all the supplies you needed.
AW: All you needed.
HH: And more.
AW: And the Germans we learned had specifically began the battle in poor weather conditions—
HH: Didn’t matter what it was. They took the good and the bad. When the weather was bad, it was worse. Because your bag, and you were fighting the weather and the enemy.
AW: You had to march great distances a lot of the time. Did that become difficult as it snowed more and more?
HH: Yeah depends. Cause a lot of the time you were carrying your stuff and a lot of times you’d get a ride in a vehicle. In other words, if you were going all the way up, you’d get a ride almost all the way up.
AW: But for shorter walks you had to do it yourself right?
HH: Yeah.
AW: And so you were fighting around small villages how did the locals treat you?
HH: The locals always greeted you.
AW: They always greeted you right. So were they ever supportive enough to come and bring you food?
HH: Oh they would always—you gotta understand, it was a rough time for them too, they didn’t have money for food themselves and now you want them to give you.
AW: So the locals would help you?
HH: They would help you as much as they can. And if they knew where an enemy was or anything they would tell you.
AW: So they were definitely against the Nazis then?
HH: yeah.
AW: Now it snowed the whole time. Did the weather conditions have any benefits? Was there any benefit to fighting in the snow at all?
HH: No it was worse because you had to bundle up and you stuff and you weapon and carry all the stuff
AW: We think that it benefited the Germans to fight in the snow like that because—
HH: Yeah because they had all their local stuff close by, where we would have to go hike for it.
AW: Yeah but it also stifled the American Air force—
HH: It what?
AW: It stifled the American Air force.
HH: What do you mean stifled?
AW: The weather did.
HH: Oh yeah.
AW: Flying in the snow was kind of unpredictable and nasty.
HH: Yeah when the weather would break we would have better air support.
AW: And you got air drops of supplies right?
HH: Yes.
AW: Now this is a quote that I think really sums up how it was. Now you tell me how accurate this is. This is from the book Hitler’s last Gamble , which was published in
1994. This is a quote specifically from someone in your position who is giving a interview who was talking about the weather there. So the quote goes something like this—
HH: The weather was very bad.
AW: so this one says “I think everyone’s most vivid memories are of the numbing cold.
Mine certainly are! The cold was enough of an adversity-- adversary without the
Germans. Just staying alive took all one’s ingenuity”
HH: Sure you had to keep yourself warm, and you had to keep yourself protected.
AW: Were there often times where you didn’t have a shelter when you were outside? So you weren’t able to sleep in houses or anything?
HH: Sure. Sometimes you lived in the foxhole.
AW: So describe that. You would dig yourself a foxhole and then what? You would stay there for the night?
HH: You would stay in that foxhole.
AW: Do you cover it with anything? Did you protect it?
HH: If you had a part of your tent you would cover it with that.
AW: Did you carry a tent with you?
HH: Just depends on where we were going and how much we could take. Everything was relative.
AW: So the cold was actually a massive threat. It seriously was a problem.
HH: You had to protect yourself first.
AW: So when you were fighting the Germans, what did you think of them? Obviously you didn’t like them because you were fighting against them. Did you have any respect for them as soldiers?
HH: No.
AW: None at all?
HH: No.
AW: So to you at least they were not respectable.
HH: They weren’t and we weren’t respectable to them.
AW: So you said earlier that some of their supplies were closer to them that it was for you. So do you think during the battle the Germans were better supplied than the
Americans?
HH: Not really. I mean because if we needed emergency supplies the big truck would rush it up.
AW: And so did the Germans have much the same idea going on? Did they rush supplies up?
HH: No they were just looking to concur. I don’t know what the hell they were going to do even if they concurred us.
AW: So they were picking stuff up on the way as they moved forward.
HH: Well I don’t know because they would have to fight us with whatever they had and we would have to fight with whatever we had. As we got better we got more ground
AW: And so you were in command of quite a few people. What kind of military tactics did you use?
HH: The standard answer is: depends upon the situation.
AW: Were you often in a position of trying to take over a small village or a couple of buildings together?
HH: Oh sure.
AW: As opposed to simply moving forward.
HH: We would just keep moving. Well if they were in our path we would move into there, and we would use them for shelter.
AW: And so a lot of the—a lot of the Ardennes Campaign was about capturing small villages like this. What do you remember about the battle for Bastogne, which is a small village in the Ardennes? It was a pretty famous battle.
HH: Well first they got shelled and bombed endlessly, and then we would move in.
AW: And so the battle of Bastogne was interesting in particular because the village itself was situated in the middle of three or four crossroads, and so it became sort of a central hub with which to move supplies around.
HH: I wouldn’t remember exactly but we used just used the roads that were safe for us.
AW: So at some point during the middle of the war, and it kind of marks the beginning of the German retreat, general Patton arrives with many soldiers from the south.
HH: Yeah we used to say, “Patton’s guts our blood his guts. ” I was with Patton
AW: Did you have respect for him as a general?
HH: Yeah he got ’em moving. You had to respect him I mean whether you liked him or you didn’t like him but you had to respect him because he was doing a lot of good.
AW: The Germans used the Panzer tank, which was very famous throughout the war, however they had a hard time fighting in the Ardennes—
HH: In the snow and the ice.
AW: And particularly the trees.
HH: You had to try to keep yourself warm and you had to keep your weapon clean and ready to use. That was the chore.
AW: so you cleaned your weapons often then.
HH: Yeah you had to keep them clean.
AW: To ensure that they worked?
HH: yeah that was your protection. You took better care of the food to eat and everything and the weapon. The weapon you took very good care of.
AW: Do remember the specific weapon you were issued?
HH: We were all—they called them the M1, M2 something like that.
AW: Was everyone issued the same thing?
HH: No it just depends upon where you are. If you were with the artillery you were towards the back you had different equipment. And as you move up you had different equipment to protect yourself and you needed ammunition. So you had to have your ammunition and your protection. And that was the big thing.
AW: So going back just briefly, to the panzer tanks. Do you think, had the weather conditions been different, because of having those tanks—
HH: If the weather were better we would have been better.
AW: So you still think you could have won, had there not been snow?
HH: Oh yeah we would have won either way. There was no question that we were going to win.
AW: So you were very confident. The final push, for the Germans at least, they had intended from the get go to go all the way up through France to Antwerp, but they couldn’t make it. They eventually tried to settle for the River Meuse, but they were stopped by American and allied forces there.
HH: They never reached their objective, whatever it was.
AW: The River Meuse was about a third of the way to Antwerp. Had they made it there do you think they could have made the campaign successful for them?
HH: For them they would have been able to get supplies faster and easier. We had to chop their supply routs before.
AW: And so at some point you start pushing the Germans back, after they can’t capture the river Meuse they are forced to retreat—
HH: Because our theory was “Patton’s guns and our blood.” That’s what we used to holler. Because Patton – we just kept going. Do they have Patton down there too?
AW: Here?
HH: General Patton.
AW: What about him?
HH: Do they have him in there or—
AW: I was just talking about him a little bit, I didn’t really have him much in my questions.
HH: Because I’m telling ya what we used to say “Patton’s guts and our blood.”
AW: Did you fight directly under the command of General Patton?
HH: No he had subordinates. Everybody had their own outfit lets say. He commanded the whole thing as a whole, but there was some that was always given down from him.
AW: Did you ever feel that the orders that you were given, as a commanding officer, were wrong? Were you ever in a position where you didn’t know—
HH: No you just followed orders. You didn’t think he was wrong. And besides that we kept moving forward so you didn’t think he was wrong.
AW: So as long as you kept moving forward, he really could have said anything and you could have been ok with it.
HH: Right.
AW: So there was a lot of respect for each other as soldiers and especially for your higher in command—
HH: Sure. Your chain of command was very good.
AW: So you said that you went through basic training in the United States, there were a lot of soldiers who got basic training in the Ardennes just before this happened. Did you ever get the feeling that—
HH: No it depends upon where you were, and who you were with, and what kind of outfit. You see I was with the 9th armored and you see with the armor and the vehicles we
would try to get ahead because we would have he infantry right behind and they would come in the front to if we needed them.
AW: But did you ever feel like the Allied soldiers in particular didn’t have the training that they should have?
HH: No we had a lot of training.
AW: So you knew what you were doing?
HH: You knew. And you knew to follow the chain of command what ever it was.
AW: Did you ever fight with people who had begun and the Normandy invasion.
HH: Oh I would not know specific things like this.
AW: Ok. After a while the Germans get pushed back. When the campaign is over were you able to tell that that was close to the end of the war?
HH: Were you able to what?
AW: To tell that that was close to the end of the war. When the Germans retreat, they ended the war soon after.
HH: Yeah we just celebrated. Anything we could find we were drinking.
AW: And so you celebrated with the locals then too right? I’m sure the locals were happy to be—
HH: The locals were all happy to see us. As long as you had on an American kit—an
American uniform, you had the whole kitchen, everything.
AW: So I have a quote here this is from Tom Brokaw he wrote a book entitled The
Greatest Generation and so he says here, and this is talking about you, “It is, I believe, the greatest generation any society has ever produced.” Do you agree with him?
HH: Well it’s the best we had to be, to be where we are, to protect our own.
AW: So you are the greatest generation?
HH: If that’s what they want to call us, yes.
AW: So when the war ended—sorry specifically after the Battle of the Bulge, what did you do? Did you remain in Europe or did you move elsewhere?
HH: No they had everything scheduled, when you were going back and where you were going. Because I mean this was great big overall picture. You have so many men you remember you gotta feed them. That was the big supplies you had to protect you supplies and still move back to where you want to be, wherever you wanted to be. But you had to protect supplies number one.
AW: After the Battle of the Bulge you still stayed and there wasn’t much fighting afterword, but you still took orders and moved your men around.
HH: It was cold. It was a bitch I remember. You had to protect yourself from the weather and then see what was doing outside.
AW: Do you remember when you went back to the United States?
HH: I don’t remember the years now.
AW: Well you don’t have to remember that. Do you remember how long after the war had ended.
HH: Well after the war ended I would say we were probably among the six months or so to head back. Cause they took the majority of us who were in all of the battles they took us and moved south.
AW: So after the war in Europe had ended, the United States continued the war in the pacific with Japan. Did you ever go over there for any fighting?
HH: No they had there own men. They had enough men over there they didn’t need us.
AW: So the Unites States decided to drop two atomic bombs on Japan one at Nagasaki and one at Hiroshima. What are your thoughts on that decision?
HH: My decision: very good. If we hadn’t done it to them and they had it they would have done it to us. And this was way after all you gotta remember early in of the war, they were the aggressors. They were more aggressive than we were. So we finally got enough men and supplies until we start to push them back.
AW: So the fighting in the Pacific was successful the because of the atomic bombs. Then shortly afterwards Japan surrenders and the war was over. Do you remember what you did at that point?
HH: We got drunk.
AW: So you must have gone home to live with your family at that point?
HH: Well you gotta understand. Well you got all these men now. You gotta separate them and send them back and check to see who had the most time in and everything. So
that they went back orderly. Some guy that just came up he didn’t go right back, he just replaced the old timers. It was a big sore.
AW: So eventually when you got back to the United States, after all this, did you continue your life right away, did you—
HH: Well it took a while till you got oriented again.
AW: Did you go back to college?
HH: Well I graduated the high school, maybe I did the first couple years of college.
AW: So looking back, on the war in general, do you think it was right for the United
States to join?
HH: Yes, because if they kept going, they would have come right in.
AW: So you think they would have invaded the United States?
HH: Sure. No doubt about it.
AW: And that’s the biggest fear, right is being invaded?
HH: Well you gotta remember, we were better off fighting on their territory then on ours.
Everything would be flat that you are looking at now. This would have all been flat. Or at least the first I don’t know how many yards of towns would be flat first.
AW: You told me the other day that you worked as a cab driver for many years—
HH: Yeah I got a cab out there now.
AW: How long did you pick that up after the war ended?
HH: Oh I started working for a fleet. And you got only a percentage of what you made.
Then I was able to borrow enough money that I was able to pay the percentage to them and give to the bank in order to have my own. Yeah I mean you are better off working for yourself. You can put in the hours that you want. And when you work for them, they say
“do work only up until the hour”, because they need someone else fresh to take over.
AW: So you worked for them for a while until you could pay to work for yourself.
HH: Yeah.
AW: Did you meet anyone as a taxi driver who had also fought in the war? Did you have any interesting conversations with people?
HH: Oh I had a lot of interesting conversations with people. Not specifically I can’t remember any answers to what you just asked me.
AW: And so is there anything, last, that you might want to talk about? I realize that you don’t really want to just tell stories.
HH: It’s just you gotta be happy its over, and that you got to go back to your family, that’s the main thing. And then you know you gotta get a job and go to work. Because after all what training do you have out there. You’re not set for any specific job, unless you work in a headquarters or something. Then you did paperwork so you knew what to do. But as a soldier what do you know what you are going to write down, what you are going to do. I mean I applied for schooling and everything that I got. They gave you everything that you wanted.
AW: So you did apply for schooling?
HH: Yeah.
AW: So you must have gone back to college then afterward?
HH: I went back to schooling yes.
AW: So you must have been pretty young when you were drafted then.
HH: That’s a good question how old. I don’t know, 17 maybe 18. I can’t answer that.
AW: And I forgot to ask earlier. You were drafted, how did your family feel about you joining the war?
HH: No doubt about it because they knew before you were drafted they you were being drafted. And they were prepared for everything.
AW: So they had accepted the fact that you would be going to war, and they were fine with it.
HH: Sure. There were no “and’s”, “if’s”, “but’s”. You were gone. It was just a question of when.
AW: So you had two brothers, were they also drafted.
HH: I remember we were all in at one time. I had an older one. Three years: Jerry and my kid brother Bill. I’m not sure. I don’t remember if we were all in at once. I remember my older brother in there. My younger brother… I think my younger brother came in toward the end of the war.
AW: Were you all deployed in roughly the same area?
HH: Were you what?
AW: Were you all deployed in Europe
HH: Yeah because you gotta understand first we were lucky. We all go into England and into England and everything. England was a jump in our point. You got Scotland, Wales, and another big section there. From there you went right over to France. And from there that’s when you started to get spread out to get where the action was.
AW: So you didn’t fight along with your brothers, but—
HH: No. As far as I was concerned you were better off without, because if one of them got hit, you would go wild. So this way here you were all separated.
AW: Did they end up ok? Did they come home?
HH: Yeah thank god. We all came home.
AW: Yeah. That is very lucky.
HH: Yeah you got to remember some parents who weren’t as lucky.
Second Interview- conducted on February 12, 2015
AW: Alright. So my first question, which I would have liked to ask you yesterday, involves some of the German tactics, which are more… advanced during the Battle of the
Bulge. I’m wondering, what did you learn about German spies in particular during the battle?
HH: I don’t know if we studied their spies. There might have been a little section of ours, but not everybody got to study about their spies.
AW: well, because we do know that there were a couple Germans-- or quite a few
Germans who dressed up as Americans, and there were really able to fake an American accent
HH: It wouldn’t come in our um—
AW: So you didn’t learn or you didn’t witness that—
HH: Because we all had our own men. We all knew our own men from growing up. We didn’t have strangers. You’re talking about strange men who would come in. No.
AW: So you knew everyone who was there.
HH: Right everybody knew everybody, and the teachers knew everybody.
AW: So when you were in Europe, obviously you spent a lot of time in foreign countries, did you pick up any languages when you were there?
HH: No I just wanted enough English with out the something else.
AW: So you didn’t speak much French to locals?
HH: No I didn’t speak any other language.
AW: So another thing I have here are two posters. These are, I guess you can say, propaganda posters, shown in the United States. If you could, just take a look at them for a second. [see appendix 1 and 2]
HH: Oh the WAC’s, and Keep Flying. Yeah, these were popular posters. So they were always in front of the public. See, you don’t see these today, do you?
AW: No, not at all.
HH: But what ever was the most popular—these were the most popular. And then they were trying to get women to join so you saw a lot of WAC’s.
AW: How did you feel, in particular, about blacks and women joining the war?
HH: How did I feel about what?
AW: How did you feel about blacks and women joining the war?
HH: Well first of all we were all segregated. We were never together so you would never know how you feel about anybody else. You had to just concentrate on your own.
AW: Do you believe that these minorities did an equal part during the war?
HH: Well that would be up to the upper echelon how they used. Because personally I didn’t come in contact with any of this.
AW: And the final question I have, and this is a more specific one is: are you still in contact with anyone you knew during that period?
HH: That’s a good question. Off hand I’m going to say not. I didn’t have any—
AW: Did you keep in contact with any of them directly after the war?
HH: I probably did with a few, that we were all closer, because we were all together. But how many years are you talking about?
AW: Lets say ten years after the war. Did you still keep in touch with people then?
HH: No I think-- by that time we probably drifted into our own families. After all we all had our own families. And we all had our— and we had to go and make a living for our own families after the war.
AW: So you went with your own families, and you went your own separate ways would have like to keep in touch with people that you met with.
HH: Oh yes. I mean we were all good people, good family people. We weren’t bums hanging around or anything. We were all family people.
AW: So that about wraps up all the questions I had for yesterday so I guess I can stop the recording here.
Interview Analysis
Herbert Herzbrun, a Platoon Sargent in the Battle of the Bulge, said, “It’s just you gotta be happy its over, and then you got to go home to your family, that’s the main thing.” (Herzbrun 41) His reflection on the War and his time in France provides a viewpoint often desired in research. Along with many other soldiers, Mr. Herzbrun fought in the December cold of the Ardennes forest. He remembers not only facts about his time in the forests, but can help to understand the comradeship and day-to-day experience of being there. Although at this stage in life Mr. Herzbrun is not capable of recalling minute and specific facts, having been present, he has a vivid memory of the emotional experience. This is the value of oral history. Many books and articles have been written on the subject, but none can come close to the knowledge of abstract information one learns from primary sources.
Oral history serves as a direct and primary source of specific events. Many if not all research papers are built on oral histories. They cannot make assumptions on the atmosphere and human emotion involved in an event, and thus rely greatly on oral histories to provide these experiences. Oral histories, therefore, must be recorded and kept for coming generations so that there is no guessing as to how people felt at the time.
It is an important part of history that needs to be protected, and which need to be created constantly.
By interviewing Herbert Herzbrun, I have been able to create another oral history to be used as a primary source. In this interview with Mr. Herzbrun, we began with his childhood and education. Despite not knowing the state of his education, he could recall
the names of his brothers, who had also been drafted at the same time. We talked about the freezing weather in the battle, which became as dangerous an enemy as the Germans.
He recalled the reaction and help provided by the local village inhabitants, who, despite lacking food for themselves, would try their best to aid the soldiers. Mr. Herzbrun’s loyalty towards his commanding officers and respect for General Patton is indicative of many officers and soldiers at the time. They relied on the structure of the system and the insight of their generals to ensure the accuracy and reason of their orders, and thus never questioned them. When the War ended Mr. Herzbrun recalls, “Yeah we just celebrated.
Anything we could find we were drinking” (Herzbrun 36) He spent extra time in Europe after it ended, until he was scheduled to leave. When he got back he worked for many years as a cab driver in New York to provide for his family.
In the conversation, Mr. Herzbrun gave an answer to some historiographical arguments, the first of which is the morality of German soldiers. Whereas historians today have debated that the German soldiers should be forgiven, because all they were doing was following orders, Mr. Herzbrun doesn’t agree. When asked “Did you have any respect for them as soldiers?”(Wallace 27) he responded flatly with “No.”(Herzbrun 27)
This reaction comes from fighting them first hand. Even though it might make sense to forgive them on the previously stated grounds, fighting them has shaped Mr. Herzbrun’s view of them to the point where they become unrespectable as people. He also answers the debated question: should the atomic bomb have been used on Japan? As historians have gathered evidence on the facts and figures of the event, they have still come to opposing conclusions. However they lack the national feeling of fear and hatred during that time of war. After years of fighting and witnessing atrocities, who would argue to
end the war with two bombs? Mr. Herzbrun certainly agreed. When asked the same question, he said, “My decision: very good. If we hadn’t done it to them and they had it, they would have done it to us. And this was the way, after all you gotta remember early in the war, they were the aggressors.” (Herzbrun 38) This reaction is to be expected having lived through and fought in the war. Nothing has changed his mind or altered his opinion since then. His answers are biased, but that is what gives uniqueness to oral histories.
Despite all the valuable information gathered from the interview, time has played a big role in the historical accuracy of the facts. This is the downside of oral histories.
Depending on the time after the specific event, the facts can be distorted by interviewees who slowly forget the specifics. When performing an interview such as this, the interviewer must keep in mind this truth. Mr. Herzbrun did have a difficult time recalling dates and numbers, which, if expected to be true, might make him seem untrustworthy.
However, since I went into the interview expecting this, it allowed me to focus on the human aspects of his answers. Details given by interviewees should in no way be ignored, but their accuracy cannot be blindly trusted.
Through this interview I have learned quite a bit about the Battle of the Bulge, as well as what the experience it truly like. It confirmed some previously made notions of my own, which right or wrong, I had made without enough information. Mr. Herzbrun’s answers to my questions often provided a view I had not previously read or considered.
It opened my eyes to the value of primary sources, not to mention the difficulty that comes with creating new ones.
Appendix 1
Appendix 2
Works Consulted
Ambrose, Stephen E. Citizen Soldiers: The U.S. Army from the Normandy Beaches to the Bulge to the Surrender of Germany, June 7, 1944-May 7, 1945. N.p.: n.p., n.d. Print. "ARMY.MIL Features." Overview. US Army, n.d. Web. 18 Dec. 2014. "Battle of the Bulge | Battlefield Detectives Documentary." YouTube. YouTube, n.d. Web. 18 Dec. 2014. Brokaw, Tom. The Greatest Generation. New York: Random House, 1998. Print. Dupuy, Trevor N., David L. Bongard, and Richard C. Anderson. Hitler's Last Gamble: The Battle of the Bulge, December 1944-January 1945. New York: HarperCollins, 1994. Print. Hickman, Kennedy. "Causes of World War II." About.com. N.p., n.d. Web. 18 Dec. 2014. "Hyperinflation of the Weimar Republic in 1923 Germany." Hyperinflation of the Weimar Republic in 1923 Germany. Scientific Market Analysis, n.d. Web. 21 Dec. 2014. Lyons, Matthew N. "What Is Fascism? Some General Ideological Features." PublicEye.org. Political Research Associates, n.d. Web. 20 Dec. 2014. Stringham, Adam. "Hitler's Last Offensive: The Experiences of an American Soldier from the Battle of the Bulge." N.p., 2008. Web. 2015. "World War II (1939-1945)." The Elenor Roosevelt Papers Project. The George Washington University, n.d. Web. 20 Dec. 2014. "World War II in Europe." United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. United States Holocaust Memorial Council, 20 June 2014. Web. 20 Dec. 2014.