American Enterprise Institute

What is next for US-Venezuela policy? A conversation with Sen. Rick Scott (R-FL)

Introduction: Roger F. Noriega, AEI

Opening remarks: Rick Scott, US Senate (R-FL)

Discussion: Roger F. Noriega, AEI Rick Scott, US Senate (R-FL)

8:30–9:30 a.m. Thursday, April 11, 2019

Event Page: https://www.aei.org/events/what-is-next-for-us-venezuela-policy-a- conversation-with-sen-rick-scott-r-fl/

Roger F. Noriega: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to AEI. Here at AEI, we’re expanding our program covering Latin American issues, looking at important challenges for US security, opportunities for our foreign policy. And we welcome you here to be part of that to welcome Sen. Scott, who is emerging as a — well, has been — a very important leader in our country on these issues, to discuss the issue of Venezuela.

Venezuela is a mafia state. It is a grave threat to regional stability and US security. President Trump deserves credit for confronting the challenge that his predecessor chose to ignore. Sixty countries have joined him in supporting Venezuela’s National Assembly and declaring Nicolás Maduro an illegitimate usurper. Interim President Juan Guaidó has rallied his people to stand up to the dictatorship. Although about a thousand members of Venezuela’s military has answered that call, that does not come close to tipping the balance against a regime which imposes its will by military force.

In the meantime, the country continues to fall apart. Oil production is plummeting. Nationwide blackouts complicate the people’s daily search for fresh food, safe water, medical care, and per- sonal security. According to a friend of mine who’s an expert engineer in the electricity grid — he knows everything about the grid inside and out — the network is so fouled up that when the lights go on, it’s practically by accident. Thirty million Venezuelans are surviving on the knife’s edge. Unless the Maduro regime begins to feel real heat and the people have real hope, millions more refugees may begin to flood into neighboring countries.

What began as a showdown with tropical dictators of Venezuela and Cuba became a big power confrontation when China and Russia decided recently to dig in. Maduro and his backers, China, Russia, Cuba, Iran, Hezbollah, narco-traffickers, don’t give a damn if there’s a humanitarian cri- sis that spirals out of control and Venezuelans begin to die by the thousands. But of course, we do care. The question remains: What are we prepared to do if that catastrophe unfolds?

We’re here this morning, seeking an answer to that very question. Sen. Rick Scott of Florida is a recent arrival in Washington, but he has been studying this issue carefully for many years. As governor, he made sure that Florida’s dollars did not reach the dictatorship. He has met regularly with military commanders stationed in Florida who would lead any operation against the regime. He has President Trump’s ear on this complex subject, where the administration is trying to res- cue the Venezuela and begin a transition to democracy.

Sen. Scott served as the 45th governor of Florida from 2011 to 2019. During his tenure, Florida created 1.7 million new jobs. He also cut over 10 billion dollars in taxes, and the economy grew in eight years by over 30 percent. Under his leadership, Florida cut red tape, eliminated 5,000 regulations, as well as the size of the government, and he expanded school choice. He also made Florida one of the best states in the nation in terms of educational affordability.

Sen. Scott served in the United States Navy from 1971 to 1974. He holds a bachelor’s degree in business administration from the University of Missouri in Kansas City and a juris doctor from Southern Methodist University. Sen. Scott will offer his remarks on the situation in Venezuela, which will be followed by our discussion and your questions. Senator.

Rick Scott: Thank you, Roger, for the introduction. Good morning. And I want to thank every- body for being here today. I want to thank the American Enterprise Institute for hosting this event on such an important topic.

The crisis in Venezuela is the crisis in America. Sen. Rubio, Congressman Mario Díaz-Balart, and I have been talking about this for years. And we have worked on the White House on a com- prehensive strategy. Now more than over — now more than 200,000 Venezuelans live in Flor- ida, and their concerns are clearly our concerns.

Make no mistake: This is absolutely a crisis. It’s a humanitarian crisis that threatens the lives of the people of Venezuela and has created an unbelievable flood of refugees numbering in the mil- lions. It’s also a crisis that threatens the safety and security of our allies in Latin America and eventually of the United States of America. The dictatorship of Nicolás Maduro and the creeping influence and military presence of our global adversaries represent a clear and present danger to the entire Western Hemisphere.

There are some who will say that this isn’t our fight, that the millions of Venezuelans suffering 2,000 miles away are not our concern. Some have criticized the mere mention of the crisis in Venezuela by those like myself as American imperialism or a US-backed coup. I completely re- ject that. This is our fight. Freedom and democracy in Latin America is our fight. And I remind these critics that the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing. We cannot let evil triumph in Venezuela. It would be a failure of leadership with disastrous long- term consequences.

There is only one option left to get rid of the — get aid to the people of Venezuela. It’s some- thing nobody wants to talk about. It’s becoming clear that we’ll have to consider the use of American military assets to deliver aid. Maduro and his thugs have left us no choice. Now how did we get to this point?

First off, like Roger, I applaud President Trump and his administration for taking bold action by recognizing Juan Guaidó as a legitimate president of Venezuela and organizing the international community to do the same. I think they did a great job. The sanctions implemented by this ad- ministration against the Maduro regime and its puppet masters in Havana reflect their commit- ment to freedom and democracy in Latin America. And yet, Maduro remains in power. The peo- ple of Venezuela continue to suffer. And the influence of Cuba, Russia, China, and international terrorist organizations continues to grow. We must do more. But in order to understand where we go from here, we just need to look at history.

Hugo Chávez might have been elected democratically, but he never intended to govern that way. He built a socialist dictatorship by hollowing out all of the democratic institutions: the constitu- tion, the electoral system, and the courts. He made civil society in the business sector bend to his will or face elimination. He nationalized entire sectors of the economy and used them to pay off his cronies. He took over the oil sector and made the national energy company his piggy bank. And he made common cause with our enemies, most notably the Castro regime.

Cuba received and continues to receive free oil from Venezuela and, in return, provides political and internal security operatives. In other words, Cuba provided and is still providing military thugs to help stop freedom. Chávez allowed his regime to engage in illegal trafficking of drugs and people. And he cooperated with Middle Eastern terrorist organizations like Hezbollah and the terror state of Iran. This cooperation has only intensified under Chávez’s successor, Maduro.

The path of socialism chosen by the Chavistas inevitably led to a failed state that relies on the world’s bad actors for survival. The result is one of the worst humanitarian crises in our hemi- sphere’s history.

We cannot ignore the impact that these socialist policies of Chávez and Maduro have had on the people of Venezuela. Nine of 10 households, they don’t have enough money to buy food. That’s socialism. Eighty percent of children under 5 are in some state of malnutrition. That’s socialism. Inflation is over 10 million percent this year, and their currency is absolutely worthless. What’s that mean for the average person? A bundle of carrots cost three million bolivars; a dozen eggs costs 150 US dollars. That’s socialism. Venezuela has the highest murder rate in the world. That’s socialism.

More than 3.5 million refugees, about 12 percent of the population, have fled to neighboring countries because they can’t get food, water, medicine, or safety from their government. Two million more Venezuelans are expected to flee before the year’s out, with Colombia taking the brunt of this refugee crisis. Colombian resources are strained as they do all they can to help the refugees fleeing persecution, starvation, and sickness, while the Maduro regime blocks aid cara- vans, sets them on fire, and continues to cooperate with the narco-trafficking rebels that plague Colombia. I want to thank my good friend President Duque for all he’s doing.

Other nations and regions such as Brazil and Peru have also pitched in. They’ve accepted hun- dreds of thousands of refugees.

For weeks, millions of Venezuelans have been left without running water in a series of massive blackouts. Journalists report that scenes that are now a part of the daily life for Venezuela: Dozen sleep in line for their turn at a well in one of the city’s biggest slums. Three men toss an old paint bucket with rope down a well hoping to find water. People park by the highway waiting for their turn to place bottles under small streams that run down Ávila Mountain.

Many Venezuelans call these conditions a genocide because the violence and starvation is being imposed on the civilian population as a conscious policy, a conscious policy of Maduro as Cuban puppet masters. Dictators like Maduro recognize weakness as an opportunity. The hungrier and sicker his people are, the easier they are to repress. This is the kind of evil we are facing in our hemisphere. But one thing is clear: Maduro underestimates his people. They may be oppressed, but they are not weak. They may be hungry, but their hunger is for freedom. And they’re making their voices heard.

We all need to listen. Maduro is an illegitimate president. His election was a complete sham — just like the elections in Cuba and Russia, a complete sham and an absolute joke.

Dozens of countries across Latin American and Europe have recognized Juan Guaidó’s constitu- tional right to the interim presidency. As president of the National Assembly, the only demo- cratic body left in Venezuela, Juan Guaidó has the right and the duty to preside over new elec- tions and the return to democracy.

The people still in power in Venezuela are corrupt bureaucrats and military officers engaged in embezzlement, narco-trafficking, and human rights abuses. Since being tested by uprisings in 2014 and 2017, the regime has reinforced a repressive apparatus that uses armed civilian gangs known as Colectivos, specialized police units, and anti-riot forces of the National Guard to ter- rorize and control the civilian population through arbitrary arrests, beatings, detentions, and kill- ings.

The Maduro regime has gone so far as to the arrest of chief of staff for interim President Juan Guaidó, Roberto Marrero. I met with his wife, Romy, on Monday in Miami. She fled the country three weeks ago with their son, a 7-year-old son, right before the Maduro thugs destroyed their home and planted the guns in their house.

The majority of the armed forces want change in their country, but they live under the repressive forces of control, threats, intimidation, and violence. Russian mercenaries protect Maduro be- cause he can’t trust his own troops, and the Russian government has provided military advisers and specialists to maintain the Maduro regime’s defenses, including surface-to-air missile sys- tems. Russia has also sent nuclear-capable bombers to Venezuela in violation of the Venezuelan Constitution to intimidate the United States and other countries in the region.

In short, Russia is expanding its military presence in Venezuela to prop up a regime hostile to the United States and create a foothold in the Western Hemisphere. Not since the Cuban Missile Cri- sis has Russia taken such aggressive steps to expand their influence in the region. Meanwhile, China invades sanctions we have placed on the regime by investing in the country and extending generous loans to prop up the dictatorship in Caracas.

The United States faces a serious national security threat and a humanitarian crisis at our door- step. This is becoming as dangerous for us as the Syrian civil war has been for Europe, Israel, and Jordan. Left unchecked, it will destabilize our regional allies and provide a base of opera- tions for our enemies.

Today, I’m urging the administration, Congress, and the American people to see the crisis for what it is: a rising tide of social and political collapse, encouraged and funded by our enemies. The socialist dictatorship of Nicolás Maduro and his Cuban, Russian, Chinese, and narco-traf- ficking allies do not care how many Venezuelans suffer and die. Maduro is determined to remain in power, sucking the life out of a once-vibrant nation, and create an outpost for our adversaries and a safe harbor for terrorists intent on harming Americans. We cannot let this stand. We will be judged by a response to this crisis — not just the humanitarian crisis, but the threat to our hemisphere. The credibility and security of the United States is on the line.

The question is not if we can tolerate this crisis that is worsening every day. We surely cannot. The question is: When will we act to end it?

Hostile regimes like Russia, China, and Cuba are digging in. They’re training killers, distributing weapons, and placing military assets in Venezuela. The message is absolutely clear; they don’t intend to give up without a fight. History has proven that permitting the former Soviet Union to establish a presence in Cuba perpetrated a six-decade totalitarian dictatorship that exported insta- bility to the region and worked against US national security interest.

Our safety, national security, and the peace of our hemisphere require us to take action. We can- not allow this murderous regime to continue spreading misery within its borders and into neigh- boring countries. There is a democratic government in waiting in the form of the National As- sembly and interim President Juan Guaidó. US policy relies on rallying his internal support and forcing those around Maduro to see their future as brighter if they defect and support the move- ments toward freedom and democracy.

There are steps we can take to accelerate the process. First, we must follow through on American policy and indict leaders for human rights violations and for narco-trafficking and money-laun- dering crimes. The regime’s stronger supporters do not care if their people suffer. They do not care, but they do care if their stolen fortunes and their freedom are at risk. We must make clear to them that their future is in jeopardy if they continue to support Maduro and interference from Cuba, Russia, and China. There will be nowhere to run; there will be nowhere to hide. The United States will give no quarter to those who support the brutal Maduro dictatorship instead of freedom and democracy for the people of Venezuela.

Second, we must break the hold the Cuban government has on Venezuela. It is imperative that the United States fully implement the sanctions contained in the Libertad Act to allow US na- tionals to sue over property confiscated by the Cuban government and to deny entry to those who traffic in stolen property. Cuba cannot continue to freely incite violence and instability in Vene- zuela while profiting from the use of stolen property and human trafficking. Chávez and Maduro kept the Cuban regime afloat for decades, and now Cuban operators are keeping the Maduro re- gime in power. It’s time we recognize that these problems are absolutely one and the same.

Third, we must encourage our allies in the region to join us in this effort. President Trump has repeatedly called on our regional counterparts to exert more leadership, and he’s right to do so. The United States has implemented strong sanctions on Venezuelan leaders on oil and on trade. Our allies all around the world must join in this effort.

The Lima Group, made up of our friends in the region, has given broad support to the strategy of isolating the Maduro regime in favor of interim President Guaidó, urging additional sanctions, and that is absolutely welcome. But they should not rule out the possibility that they will need to pursue more aggressive means to remove this threat. Their security and economic well-being are also at risk. They should remember the Maduro regime and supporters want Venezuela’s neigh- bors to live in fear. Even before this crisis began in earnest, Colombian [inaudible] faced regular interventions and threats from the Venezuelan regime. Maduro and his supporters do not want peaceful relations with other countries except on their own terms. I am quite sure that Cuba, China, and Russia do not have the best interests of the region in mine.

I was glad to see the Organization of American States accept the appointment of the designated permanent representative of the National Assembly, Gustavo Tarre Briceño. Consistent with the Inter-American Democratic Charter, the Organization of American States must expel Maduro’s representative. The Maduro regime is not a legitimate government and has no right to send a rep- resentative to the very body in the Western Hemisphere charged with protecting and promoting democracy in the region.

Fourth, we must not appear weak in the face of Chinese, Russian, and Cuban determination that prop up Maduro. Our adversaries question our will and our determination. Put simply, I don’t be- lieve they think we’re serious. We should disabuse them of that notion. All options, including the use of American military assets, must remain on the table. If sanctions can cripple the Maduro regime, we have to continue on that path. But so far, sanctions alone aren’t stopping the Maduro regime, and the United States needs to start considering the use of military assets to bring aid to the millions of starving and sick Venezuelans. I call on all of our allies and those supporting Guaidó to help us in this effort.

Let me repeat that: The United States must consider the use of military assets to bring aid to the people of Venezuela. But that doesn’t end the conversation. If embargos and blockades can help, we should consider them. And if military force on the part of the United States and our allies in the region is necessary to rid us of the scourge of Maduro and his thugs, then we absolutely can- not rule it out.

If the Venezuelan people, through their elected National Assembly and their own laws and con- stitution, request assistance to restore constitutional government and democracy, we should be ready to answer that call. Unfortunately, the Maduro regime is not broken yet. And it can count on millions, billions of dollars looted from the Venezuelan people and generated from 20 years of narco-trafficking. The Cubans, Russians, and Chinese see Venezuela as an economic oppor- tunity, but more importantly, they see a chance to intimidate the United States, to be a thorn in our side. This is a great-power confrontation and one that our National Defense Strategy might not explicitly contemplate. But it is confrontation that we must be willing to meet with decisive action.

The Venezuelan people want change. And even now they think of survival as much as they think of a democratic future. They are looking to the United States and democratic countries to help them. We must answer that call. After we do, we must be prepared, funded by their own all reve- nue, to help rebuild their productive industries and every aspect of their once-thriving economy, including infrastructure, public services, industry, energy and power sectors, telecommunica- tions, and mining.

Restoring a failed state is not an easy task. But Venezuela’s vast natural resources and the Guaidó government’s desire to once again enter the community of democratic and peaceful na- tions are a strong foundation for a free and prosperous future. They cannot defeat these powerful forces of evil without significant support from the international community.

My message today is this: The United States stands with the patriots of Venezuela fighting to de- fend their lives, their liberty, and their sacred honor. Here’s the truth: We simply cannot allow our adversaries in Russia, China, and Cuba to gain a foothold in Venezuela. We cannot allow it, and we have to stop it. The American people need to understand what is at stake here, and it’s time to tell them. Thank you for the opportunity to be here.

Roger F. Noriega: Well, excellent. Excellent presentation.

Rick Scott: Thanks.

Roger F. Noriega: Very thorough, and your recitation of the problems that the Venezuelan peo- ple confront and the hostility and nature of that regime is even more dramatic when we reflect in the not-so-distant past of a Venezuela that was wealthy. Not only wealthy and successful, but also a friend of the United States. So the impact of —

Rick Scott: You think about the kids, I mean, first off if you think about I’ve got — I’ve got grandkids, you know. I just think about my 3-year-old grandson. What if he didn’t have the food, the water, the medicine? And you know, you just think about the starvation of so many people down there. And then you have to think — we’re going to have a problem whether we want to acknowledge it or not. I mean, you know, once they have a foothold in Venezuela, they can come here by land eventually. Our southern border is very porous as we know. They, you know, with the right military assets, they can hit Florida or anyplace else.

Roger F. Noriega: And we’re certainly confronting that transnational organized crime, and Ven- ezuela has been converted into a platform for that. That’s the same negative, powerful, well- heeled sources that have disintegrated economies in Central America. And it’s the problem that confronts itself — we confront at the border, southwest border.

By the way, I want to, Senator, recognize a friend of yours and all of ours —

Rick Scott: — and a Floridian.

Roger F. Noriega: Ambassador Carlos Trujillo. Ambassador Carlos Trujillo at the OAS has been an architect of the policy, and we’ve given him a lot to think about in terms of the chal- lenges they had as we dig in on this.

Senator, a very good friend of yours, President Trump, has made the right decisions I believe on Venezuela. You know, you’re familiar with his thinking. How has he become so acquainted with this issue, so committed in general on Venezuela? Rick Scott: Right, Carlos. I don’t know. From the time he took office, you know, he’s scared about this. He knows the problem, you know. I think he understands. I mean, this is our hemi- sphere. I mean, I think he’s been clear all along: Russia and China are not our friends. I’m appre- ciative of the actions he’s taken against Cuba. We’ve got to make sure Article 3 and Article 4 get implemented. I think that’ll have a devastating impact on their economy, which is — we’ve got to do that. We just — we have to understand that these people are not our friends, and so we have got to start acting, whether it’s with our trade policy or understanding what they’re doing with their militaries, that we’ve got to stand up to them. And if we don’t, then we — then, you know, eventually it’s going to impact us.

Roger F. Noriega: And certainly the Trump administration recognizes that. That national secu- rity team recognizes that, and the challenge that we’re addressing here is making sure everyone else understands what we’re confronting.

The New York Times — and frankly, journalism in general — has done a remarkably good job in telling the story about the threat and the human consequences of what’s happening in Vene- zuela. It’s really a tribute to journalism, what they’ve done under very harsh conditions telling that story. And then I was so disheartened to see that New York Times editorialized that Presi- dent Trump should wait — literally wait — and let the Venezuelans sort this out. Why is there, you know, why — what do you find most disgusting about that prophecy?

Rick Scott: Well, first of all I think that we need to — I think we need to do more to tell the American people what’s going on. I think that — I think everybody needs to understand, you know, the crisis down there.

Remember when we saw the little 2-year-old that died on the beach, and the whole world is — you know, that that impacted them. That’s, you know, it’s happening in different ways, every day. And I think, while there’s been a lot of press about what’s going on, I don’t think there’s enough about the starvation, about a child like my grandson. But I don’t know how we can wait.

I mean, this is — and whether you’re Colombia, whether you’re Brazil, or whether you’re Peru, this is — you’re going to have a problem. We’re going to have a problem in this country. So let’s nip it in the bud when we have it. And it’s easier to do it than wait.

And so, I’m disappointed when people say, we have to continue to wait. Now look, if we’re comfortable that we’re going to get there through sanctions and blockades and all these things, I mean, that’s great. But we need to be prepared if that’s not going to happen. We need to take care of the starving Venezuelans.

Roger F. Noriega: I agree. That’s a great point.

Rick Scott: And we need to hold people accountable. What I would say to the — everybody in the administration. So, Carlos says — I don’t know, what Carlos would say, but he’s — I think he’d say the same thing. We know there has to be people in Miami that are prospering off of what’s happened to Maduro, right? And Chávez. Are we holding all those people accountable? When I was governor, we passed legislation that said that no state agency could do business with anybody doing business with Maduro. I’m going to do — I’m going to file a bill today that the federal government can’t do that either. No one should do business Maduro. We’ve got to make Maduro a pariah. The way I think about it, I think about what happened with apartheid. It be- came a pariah, and nobody wanted to do business with South Africa. We’ve got to do the exact same thing, but we still have — our allies are still doing business. We just saw Prince Charles go to Cuba. For what? Vacation?

Roger F. Noriega: It was a travesty, quite frankly.

You lay out — make a very strong case for humanitarian intervention. And you also describe what the Russians have done in terms of introducing certain sophisticated missiles. You served in the Navy, where it was your mission to stay out of the way of those missiles. And you know how challenging this is. You also communicate on a regular basis with the military commanders that are right there in Florida who would lead this effort. It’s a very complicated challenge really, when they talk about putting US aircraft over that territory.

Could you sort of explain? What do you think the US military thinking is on this in general? How complicated the mission is? Sort of, whether we’re, you know, we want to, you know — not suggest this is an easy sort of opportunity or challenge for us.

Rick Scott: Well, first off, I don’t think any of us — the first thing, you know, we don’t want to have — no one wants the first thing to do is say, we gotta take military action against something, especially a place that we don’t probably have enough information about. And so, I think it’s re- ally challenging, and plus we’re stretched thin right now. I mean, our military is all over the world. We still have crisis in the Middle East and Afghanistan, all these places.

So, it’s stretched thin, and I think if you look at the last, what, I don’t know how many decades, we’ve not put a lot of effort into to Latin America. And so, we don’t have a lot of assets and don’t — and to a certain extent I think we’re lacking knowledge. So, I think it’s a very, very — I think it’s very difficult for our military to figure out exactly how to do this.

But the bottom line is it’s going to get harder. The bigger presence of Russia and China — and I don’t know if Cuba can get any bigger presence there — that’s going to make it more and more difficult for us. So I think that’s why we’ve got to be as aggressive as we can now.

But again, the goal that, you know, what you like is a peaceful transition, I mean, like when Mandela, you know, took over South Africa. And that’s what you’d like, but I mean, I don’t think you can expect that’s what’s going to happen now.

Roger F. Noriega: But are the military ladders warring over these issues? Because the Russians and the Chinese and the Cubans, particularly the Cubans, have been watching Uncle Sam’s trig- ger finger for 60 years. And I think that the reason that the Russians and the Cubans and the Chi- nese believe that they can move in and challenge us in this way is because the Cubans have as- sured them that we’re not serious about using force. Rick Scott: I think that’s their perception. I think if you look at the amount of military assets we have dedicated to this hemisphere, it’s pretty weak. And so, I mean, I think that’s why what you’re seeing. I mean, you’re seeing Russia is continuing to build up assets.

Roger F. Noriega: It must be frustrating for people who care about Venezuela and the cost of freedom in the Americas to see the way the Latin American, Caribbean leaders rule out military force sort of in a religious way, you know. Very doctrinally.

Rick Scott: They weren’t long term. We didn’t set their border. They’re not going to. I mean, the way we think about it is — so, Russia and China do not want stability, right? Cuba doesn’t want stability. So, if they continue to grow their presence in Venezuela, then, I mean, you can say I mean it’s just one military action, right? But you can see what the future holds. I mean, we’re going to have another Syria. I think the way you have to think about it is you have to say, okay, so, that’s the logical end. So, should I spend more time now to stop it than I would?

Roger F. Noriega: Well, certainly when people talk about the use of force, really the heart of our policy or strategy now is that someone use force against this regime. There’s a recognition that they’re not going to give up power or these criminal thugs are not going to give up power and the fortune that they’ve stolen, hundreds of billions of dollars, voluntarily or a result of sort of a farcical election.

So, but the forces that we’re trying to induce is within the Venezuelan regime, among narco gen- erals — and by the way there are 2,000 generals in Venezuela. There are more generals than there are in NATO. That these narco generals are somehow going to wake up one day and decide that they need to go the other way and rebel against Maduro. Is that a realistic proposition do you think three months into this thing? And are there risks of calling upon these bad guys, you know, to accept this amnesty if they move against Maduro?

Rick Scott: Well, you know, you can be hopeful. But, I mean, when I talk to the White House I think they believe that the sanctions are continuing to have an impact. And we’re making it way more difficult for them to have access to any money. I think that’s positive.

So, that would be great, but I think we need to look at everything. We need to get, you know, what is Spain doing? What is, you know, what are all of our European allies doing? Or, you know, they really sanctioning? Are they stopping, you know, the people around Maduro from us- ing the spoils in their countries? I think, if the whole — I mean, they’ve got to get more aggres- sive also, not just the United States. And that would be, I mean, the first goal is these people step aside because they can’t survive. And so, do everything you can, blockade oil, don’t let oil get to the Cuban aid, do everything you can first. But then, be realistic. You know, we’ve got — we do have to worry about all the starving Venezuelans, and if it’s the only way we can get them aid is through our military and with the support of military in the region and our allies, we ought to be doing it.

Roger F. Noriega: So, in terms of helping Venezuelans and Venezuelans doing what they can to help themselves, there’s a provision in the Constitution of Venezuela, Article 187, paragraph 11, which authorizes the presence, where the National Assembly could authorize the presence of for- eign forces in their territory. This is pre-Bolivar apparently. The very good people, the govern- ment we support of Guaidó, will — have not made that decision yet, and they sort of fend it off. The impression is it’s because the United States really doesn’t have an answer to that question right now so that’s an inconvenient one for the Venezuelans to ask. But do you think that the Venezuelan should, to invoke that provision or authorize that presence as a way of getting not just the United States but other countries to consider, you know, what should they be doing in solidarity with the Venezuelan —

Rick Scott: I think it’s pretty important. And they need to know somebody’s going to show up. So, then I think they need to — they need to understand if the United States and the other allies are going to show up. I think the Trump administration did a good job of rallying allies to recog- nize Juan Guaidó. And I think it’s incumbent upon the Trump administration working with Juan Guaidó at the point that they didn’t make the decision, that they, you know, want our support and also to organize that. I mean, it’s their responsibility, but it’s our responsibility to work to organ- ize it.

Roger F. Noriega: So, those of us who know the history of the region like you do so well know that Cuba was actually expelled from the OAS for its support for insurrection in Venezuela. And one of the things that the late Fidel Castro wanted very early on was access to those oil fields. Now they have them. Now, the Cubans are — the Castro regime is — well, I still call it that be- cause Raul, as long as Raul is really running the show. The Castro regime is raping that country, destroying that country. And —

Rick Scott: They don’t care about people.

Roger F. Noriega: And they’re directly involved in narco-trafficking criminality. Do we risk losing the Latin American support if we make this about Cuba? And frankly, do we care? Isn’t it time that the Latins kind of confront this issue that Cuba is behind all of these terrible things that are happening in the region?

Rick Scott: I’d be surprised if we lose their support. I think people have figured out that, you know, that Cuba’s unbelievably destabilizing. That regime is destabilizing. But bottom line is: Why should somebody be able to traffic in stolen property? I mean, I think it’s ridiculous that we haven’t implemented the Article 3 and Article 4. I mean, it’s wrong that people do business with, you know, with stolen assets. And I think it will have an impact. But also we need to do every- thing we can to make sure no oil flows to Cuba.

Roger F. Noriega: Speaking of hostile powers — and I really applaud you for speaking so clearly about these things. The Chinese and a lot of people say —

Rick Scott: They are not our friends.

Roger F. Noriega: Yeah, the Chinese are not our friends. They have floated that regime for years, and they have about $20 billion they’re still owed. What do they want out of this? They just want to get paid, or do they want to gnaw at our heels or cause problems for us in our hemi- sphere?

Rick Scott: Probably all the above. But if you look at why — I mean, I’m glad the Trump ad- ministration is taking an aggressive stance with regard to the trade negotiations. I mean, China has been stealing our assets. They’ve hurt our economy. They’re trying to build up a military that can confront our military. I think we’ve got to — all Americans got to understand that when we do business with China, they are somebody that eventually wants to annihilate us. They are not here to be a peaceful coexistence with us. I don’t trust anything about what the Chinese are doing — and whether it’s in Venezuela or what’s in the South China Seas.

Roger F. Noriega: And you have to think about how you muscle those countries out of this hemisphere, the Russians and the Chinese, without some sort of credible threat that the military is going to step up.

Rick Scott: We have to. We have to do everything within our power. We should do everything we can to make sure that the Chinese government does not make money off of Americans. That will have an impact. If they can’t make money off of Americans, they’re going to have a very tough time spending all the money to try to support Venezuela or anyplace else.

Roger F. Noriega: Certainly, the president has not been shy about being very blunt with the Chi- nese in terms of what’s at stake, in terms of the commercial relationship and with this kind of acute threat to our security. I think it makes an awful lot of sense that we put Venezuela front and center in that agenda with China.

I’m going to throw the question — floor open to questions. Let’s take this gentleman here. Wait for the microphone. Please, identify yourself, and please do not make speeches.

Q: John Suarez from Freedom House. My question is you were mentioning the issue of famine in Venezuela. In the 20th century, we saw famines, provoked famines, in Russia, Ethiopia, China. In the case of Ethiopia, the Cubans were involved. Do you think that the Cubans are in- volved today with Maduro in trying to have a planned famine to consolidate control in the coun- try? Thank you.

Rick Scott: You know, whether it’s controlled or not, they’re part of making sure it happens. I mean, they know what’s going on. I mean, you can’t, you know, you’re living under a rock if you wouldn’t know it. So, I think it’s part of the plan to repress the people. You know, we just go back and think about Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, you know. So, if you don’t have food, it’s very difficult to focus on anything else. And that’s exactly what they’ve done to — I mean, you’d like — I mean, what you’d like is, you know, complete internal insurrection against Ma- duro, but when people are struggling to put food on the table it makes it very, very difficult.

Roger F. Noriega: That famine and refugees are a feature not a bug of the Cuban model of building a repressive regime. The gentlemen in the back. Q: Hi. My name is Clyde Shepherd. I’m a senior at the School of Foreign Service at Georgetown. Thank you for coming. A lot of what you said resonated.

I was interested in hearing more about your strategies with relation to Cuba because, as I see it, Cuba expropriated the property in the ’60s. We have the Helms-Burton Act, which allows US nationals to sue Cuba for that value of that property. In Cuban Constitution last summer, actually recognized private property, but then the US has chosen to suspend a lot of the applications to sue out of the interest of our allies, such as Chile, Argentina, and Mexico, because we fear that multinational corporations will be unfairly sued out of the self-interest of Cuban expats. That’s my limited perspective, but I’d be interested in hearing your thoughts given those considerations.

Rick Scott: It’s stolen property. It’s stolen property. You shouldn’t be able to make money off of stolen property. So we are going to implement, you know, Article 3 and Article 4, and no one should be able to — to be able to make money off that property. I think it’ll have — there’s ac- countability, one, and number two is it’ll impact their economy. Which if you — you know, whether it’s China or whether it’s Cuba, if their economy is hurting, they’re going to — there’s fewer — things are going to go outside their own country.

Roger F. Noriega: We’re going to go to this table here. Steven, in the back.

Q: Thank you. Thank you, Senator, for being here and for giving us your thoughts. I’m Steven Donohue from [inaudible] Associates, and I’m a retired Army officer. I’m interested in your ex- ploring your concept — carefully worded concept of using military assets to deliver humanitar- ian aid and whether given the security situation in Venezuela that will include combat forces to secure the transportation and logistics assets. Who else and under what authority do you see us being able to do that, whether the UN or the OAS will provide some blue helmet authority? How do you see that working out, and how many of our troops do we put at risk to do this?

Rick Scott: I think all those are pretty tough. You’ve got to figure. I think that all those are very difficult things to figure out. I’m very comfortable that our military can figure this out. And I think we ought to work — we have to do this with — at the request of the interim government and with our allies. And whatever we’re going to do, it’s got to be done in a manner that our forces are safe. So I don’t know how you could do it without significant — I mean, you have the ability to defend whoever we send in. So, I think — I know it’ll be difficult, but I think American troops could do it by themselves, but clearly with the support of our allies, and I think it’s clearly doable. And I think the Maduro regime will back off.

Roger F. Noriega: I’m going to go one, then two.

Q: Good to see you, governor, president, senator again. I’m Timothy Towel, retired Foreign Ser- vice officer, 30 years. But more importantly, political officer in the US intersection in Vernon when we sent you [inaudible], who are really wonderful citizens of Florida now.

My questions follow on about what the US is going to do. I was watching the president — I watch TV now because I’m old. I was watching the president, how well-informed on Venezuela he was and how nice he was with that lovely lady, the first lady Mrs. Guaidó, the other day. And then some nasty free press, sorry, talked about Russians and Russian planes and troops every- thing. He got pissed off. His face changed, his voice raised, and he sounded like he wanted to go down there and do something nasty and use the old phrase about all options are open. I was watching TV the other day, and he was —

Roger F. Noriega: Please, get to your question.

Q: — and he was on the White House lawn, and he was screaming about your colleagues and others talking about a coup and treason. And then he said, “I’m in charge, not that 20- or 32- year-old child over there.” What if the president gets terminally pissed off and he’s in charge? Could a balanced disciplined military response that you have been discussing wonderfully turn into something fairly dangerous for the United States in the hemisphere?

Rick Scott: Well I think anything is possible, but you know, what I’ve talked to, you know, whether it’s Ambassador Bolton or Pompeo, I think, they’re very measured in what they’re try- ing to do. And I think they’re optimistic that they and other allies are going to continue to have the right impact. But I think we have to be realistic that this is getting worse for us. With the in- creased presence of Russia, and you know, this does not look like it’s going to happen overnight. No. I continue to be an optimist. But I don’t know.

I mean, I think the president has got the right instincts. I don’t think he wants to willy-nilly go into any place. I think he’s trying to bring American troops home. I think he’s — so he doesn’t want to try to create another conflict, but I think he does realize that this is a real problem in our hemisphere. So.

Roger F. Noriega: My sense of it is that the president had a very clear vision. He wanted Ma- duro out of power.

Rick Scott: Right.

Roger F. Noriega: Very early on. And he was not getting real options.

Rick Scott: Right.

Roger F. Noriega: You know, we don’t have to kick in the front door. There are different ways of dealing with this kind of a threat to get the right people using force. And I’m just not sure that he’s getting those creative options from, you know, good friends of mine who are right there at his elbow making these recommendations or in this case not making. We’ll go to ambassador.

Q: Thank you, Senator. And I’m Jaime Aparicio. I’m the former ambassador of Bolivia to the United States. And for obvious reasons, I’m staying here in the States.

But my question is: We all know what Venezuela or what Cuba is doing in Venezuela and why Maduro is still there. But not many people know that they are doing exactly the same thing in Bolivia and Nicaragua. Cuba is deeply involved in supporting the illegal reelection of Evo Mo- rales, and of course he’s supporting Ortega with all these 60 years of experience. So the question is: I know it’s very difficult to answer, but how to stop that? How the US and Latin American countries can stop that.

Rick Scott: I mean, I think all the instability is caused by Cuba being there. And so, I think do- ing everything we can. I think it was right that the — you know, the administration said, you know, Major League Baseball, you know, couldn’t do business. I think just everything we can do. But I think the next thing we’ve got to do — and hopefully it’ll get announced in the next week or so — is the implementation of Article 3 and Article 4.

And then I think — I think all of us as Americans, we have to start saying to ourselves, you know, why would we visit Cuba? Why would we give them a dollar? You know, why are we supporting China when we know they’re against us? And all of us have to do this. I think having something like this where we started having these conversations and getting the American public to understand the atrocities that the Cuban regime has done every place they can. And the chil- dren that are dying as a result of what the Castro regime is doing, and it’s staggering. And every time I just always think — when I think about Venezuela, I think about my grandkids, what life would be like. And so, and then I worry about — if we don’t, when we — if we don’t stop it now, it’s going be at our border.

Roger F. Noriega: We’re going to go right to the gentlemen right there.

Q: Hi. I am Frank Calzon with the Center for a Free Cuba. I’m delighted to hear you and Am- bassador Noriega this morning.

There’s a strategic dimension in Putin and the Russian military presence in Venezuela. Some folks keep saying that the president’s talking about the options on the table. It’s dangerous. It’s also dangerous not to look into what’s going on. And so my question to you is: Does Mr. Putin’s willingness to do this in Venezuela also mean that he’s willing to do other things in other parts of the world? And are we going to sit around and say, “Oh my god, it’s dangerous”? So we got to be very careful. What would you say to the president?

Rick Scott: Well, I believe that Putin is not our friend. I think he’s going to do everything he can to create instability around the world. He’s going to try to be a thorn in our side. It’s going to get worse if he — but you know, if — I mean, he did it in Syria. And so, we’ll have another Syria in Venezuela or someplace else. And if he believes he can do it with no repercussions, he’s going to keep doing it. And so, I think, I mean he’s — I mean, he is our enemy. He is not our friend. And Cuba is a key. I think that Cuba is the key to Latin America.

Q: Hi. Thank you for coming, Senator. My name is Sarah Schmalzle. I’m a student at the Uni- versity of Maryland. And I have a question about the humanitarian situation that you’ve talked a lot about. When you recommend more sanctions and blockades, do you think measures like that could make the humanitarian crisis worse before they kind of make them better?

Rick Scott: Well, first off, we know — we know if we don’t do anything, you know, millions of people have already left. You know, we have — we have children starving to death. We have, you know — so, whether we do them or not, that’s what’s going on. So, the great — so, are we — by doing them is there a greater chance that Maduro is going to have to step aside because he can’t — he doesn’t have access to any resources? So, I think that we often believe, I mean, we don’t have another choice. I think it’s the greatest opportunity to possibly stop the humanitarian crisis.

Roger F. Noriega: We have time for quick questions. The gentleman there.

Q: Hi. Evan Carr with WTVJ. On a happier topic, I was wondering if you could talk about how you donated the first fourth of your salary to the Puerto Rican projects in Orlando and Tampa.

Rick Scott: Sure. So, I’ve been blessed, you know. I sort of joked about this. I grew up in public housing, and then as a governor I went back in public housing. So I was so successful. But I was — I built businesses all my life, and so I’ve had the opportunity to give back. And so, I didn’t take a salary as governor, but as the senator you have to take your compensation. So, every quar- ter I’m going to give it, and this time I gave it to groups that can help the Puerto Rican commu- nity. It’s devastated. And I putting a lot of effort into trying to make sure we get the right funding for them to get their economy back going after Maria. And so, we gave it to a group in Orlando and Tampa, two different groups.

Roger F. Noriega: That’s a terrific answer and a pretty nice question. And one last question. This gentleman.

Q: Yes. My name is Barry Stern. I’m an educator and consultant in the field of workforce devel- opment and education. I did a lot of that in Venezuela, where I was a Peace Corps volunteer, one of the first ever to get to that country. In fact, I was there during the first peaceful transition from one president to another.

When I got there, there was a machine gun in every corner and a tank on every corner. And it’s distressing to me. I mean, I personally saw things like a group called the FALN, the Armed Fed- eration of National Liberation. It was a communist group. And they were killing police, and they blowing up pipelines. And they blew up bombs right near where I was sleeping. So, I’m just — first of all, I want to just thank you for your clarity of thought and your courage for speaking out as you have today.

I don’t think this is going to end well. I think we ought to think about the Powell doctrine, over- whelming force, and holding people accountable for things like human rights violations and war crimes.

But then there’s another piece, and that is: What do you do next? We have a whole issue of Cen- tral America imploding before our eyes with all kinds of people on our borders trying to come to a place that’s safe. What strategy are you recommending with your colleagues, Sen. Rubio, and with the president to think about what’s next? We have a real issue in Central America of gov- ernance. Are we thinking about how to resolve a hemispheric problem, especially in Central America? Thank you. Rick Scott: You know, like, I’m a business guy, and I’m an incrementalist. And so the way I al- ways think about things is: What can you get done now, right? And I think right now, we can — we can have a dramatic impact on the Cuba regime by implementing Article 3 and Article 4. And then we’ve got to make sure that all of our sanctions against any individuals in Cuba, we keep doing — we do everything to ratchet up — just get them to stop supporting Maduro in other places. And we have problems in all our places, whether it’s Bolivia or Central America or what- ever, but then our next biggest crisis right now is Venezuela. But I would focus on those two first, but I know it’s not going to end until we just work through every place to try to create sta- bility. I don’t think it’s going to be easy.

Roger F. Noriega: Well, thank you very much, Senator. I must say, I found myself — I’m old, too, and I watch TV. And I was watching a movie, “The Kite Runner,” and it was about Afghani- stan. And I saw, you know, this very noble father of these kids taking them into exile running from the Soviet Union. And I realized, you know, I know people like that from all over Cuba, certainly, and now Venezuela. I’m surrounded by people I work with. I know you are, too. You know these people. You look in their eyes. You see them despair. But the fact is the United States has always been the country that stood up and said, “We’re not going to do that. We’re not going to allow that.” And so, I have to say this is a very uplifting message, what I’ve heard. I know there’s a lot of hard questions. You know those questions. You know some of the answers, too. But at least you have the courage to step up and say, you know, we have to confront this. We have to see our moral responsibility and the threats to our security that we need to confront.

Rick Scott: Right.

Roger F. Noriega: Thank you very much, Senator. I’m going to ask everybody, as the senator leaves, if you please stay in your place so he can make it to the Senate safe. Thank you very much.

Rick Scott: All right. See you all. Thank you.

Roger F. Noriega: Thank you. God Bless.

Rick Scott: You’re welcome.