Kodiak/Aleutians Subsistence Regional Advisory Council Meeting

KODIAK/ALEUTIANS FEDERAL SUBSISTENCE RAC 2/22/2018 KODIAK/ALEUTIANS RAC MEETING 1

KODIAK/ALEUTIANS SUBSISTENCE REGIONAL ADVISORY COUNCIL MEETING

PUBLIC MEETING

VOLUME I

Best Western Kodiak Inn Kodiak, Alaska February 22, 2018 9:00 a.m.

COUNCIL MEMBERS PRESENT:

Della Trumble, Chair Melissa Berns Coral Chernoff Patrick Holmes Richard Koso Christopher Price Samuel Rohrer Antone Shelikoff Rebecca Skinner

Regional Council Coordinator, Karen Deatherage

Recorded and transcribed by:

Computer Matrix Court Reporters, LLC 135 Christensen Drive, Suite 2 Anchorage, AK 99501 907-243-0668/[email protected]

Computer Matrix, LLC Phone: 907-243-0668 135 Christensen Dr., Ste. 2., Anch. AK 99501 Fax: 907-243-1473 Email: [email protected] KODIAK/ALEUTIANS FEDERAL SUBSISTENCE RAC 2/22/2018 KODIAK/ALEUTIANS RAC MEETING 1

Page 2 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 3 (Kodiak, Alaska - 2/22/2018) 4 5 (On record) 6 7 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. Good 8 morning, everyone. We're going to be about five 9 minutes late, but we're in good time here. 10 11 I'd like to welcome everyone this 12 morning to the Kodiak/Aleutians Federal Subsistence 13 Advisory Council meeting. Karen's got me off track 14 here. I was all set. 15 16 MS. DEATHERAGE: Oh, I'll be quiet. 17 18 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: That's okay. If 19 we can have the roll call, please. 20 21 MS. BERNS: Antone Shelikoff. 22 23 MR. SHELIKOFF: Here. 24 25 MS. BERNS: Patrick Holmes. 26 27 MR. HOLMES: Here. 28 29 MS. BERNS: Richard Koso. 30 31 MR. KOSO: Here. 32 33 MS. BERNS: Samuel Rohrer. 34 35 MR. ROHRER: Here. 36 37 MS. BERNS: Christopher Price. 38 39 MR. PRICE: Here. 40 41 MS. BERNS: Coral Chernoff. 42 43 MS. CHERNOFF: Here. 44 45 MS. BERNS: Rebecca Skinner. 46 47 MS. SKINNER: Here 48 49 MS. BERNS: And Della Trumble. 50

Page 3 1 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Here. 2 3 MS. BERNS: Mitch Simeonoff. And 4 Melissa Berns, here. 5 6 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you, 7 Melissa. I'd like to welcome everybody to the 8 Kodiak/Aleutian meeting. 9 10 We'll go ahead and do introductions. 11 12 But I do have a question, Karen. Where 13 -- I guess right after this we'll do the agenda, if 14 that's okay. All right. 15 16 Let me go ahead. We'll start may here 17 and go around, and then to the audience. 18 19 MR. ROHRER: My name is Sam Rohrer, and 20 I'm a resident of Kodiak. 21 22 MR. PRICE: Good morning. My name's 23 Chris Price. I'm from Unalaska. I work for the 24 Qawalingin Tribe. And this is my first meeting, and 25 I'm glad to be here. 26 27 Thank you. 28 29 MS. SKINNER: Rebecca Skinner from 30 Kodiak. 31 32 MS. CHERNOFF: Coral Chernoff from 33 Kodiak. 34 35 MS. DEATHERAGE: Karen Deatherage, 36 Office of Subsistence Management in Anchorage. 37 38 And just a quick reminder for those on 39 the phone, if you could mute your phones and please 40 don't put us on hold, but also please be sure to 41 introduce yourself when we call on the phone 42 participants. 43 44 Thank you. 45 46 MS. BERNS: Melissa Berns, originally 47 from Old Harbor, recently moved to Kodiak this fall. 48 49 MR. HOLMES: Pat Holmes, Kodiak. 50

Page 4 1 MR. KOSO: Yeah. Rick Koso, Adak. 2 3 MR. SHELIKOFF: Antone Shelikoff, 4 Akutan. 5 6 REPORTER: Lynn with Computer Matrix. 7 8 MR. PAPPAS: Good morning, Ms. Chair. 9 George Pappas, Office of Subsistence Management. I'm 10 the state subsistence liaison for the Federal 11 Subsistence Board and OSM to the State. And currently 12 we have four meetings going on today, and I have been 13 prioritized to be at this meeting. And it's good to 14 see a lot of friends. Good morning. 15 16 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Tom. 17 18 MR. SCHWANTES: Tom Schwantes, Kodiak. 19 20 MR. WITTEVEEN: Mark Witteveen, Kodiak 21 assistant area sport fish biologist for Fish and Game. 22 23 MS. FOX: Lisa Fox. I'm the area 24 management biologist for South Alaska Peninsula and 25 Aleutian Islands, and I'm in herring, commercial and 26 subsistence fisheries. 27 28 MS. WHITESIDE: Cassie Whiteside. I 29 work with Lisa with Fish and Game, in the commercial 30 fisheries. 31 32 MS. PETRIVELLI: Pat Petrivelli, the 33 BIA subsistence anthropologist, and I work out of 34 Anchorage. 35 36 MR. UNDERWOOD: My name's Tevis 37 Underwood. I'm with the Kodiak National Wildlife 38 Refuge as the deputy manager. 39 40 MR. BRADY: Mike Brady, Refuge manager 41 at Kodiak National Wildlife Refuge. 42 43 MR. PYLE: Good morning. Bill Pyle, 44 supervisory wildlife biologist, Kodiak Refuge. 45 46 MS. KRUEGER: Good morning. Kelly 47 Krueger, Sun'aq Tribe of Kodiak. 48 49 MS. MASON: Stephanie Mason, Kodiak 50

Page 5 1 Area Native Association, regional environmental 2 coordinator. 3 4 MR. DELEHANTY: Good morning. My name 5 is Steve Delehanty. I live in Homer, and I'm with the 6 Alaska Maritime National Wildlife Refuge. 7 8 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you. And 9 can we have the people introduce themselves that are on 10 line, please. 11 12 MR. BUTLER: This is Lem Butler, 13 assistant director for Fish and Game on Juneau. 14 15 MR. BURCH: This is Mark Burch with the 16 Department of Fish and Game. 17 18 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. Hearing 19 no one else; is there anyone else on line. 20 21 (No comments) 22 23 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. Before we 24 get started, I'd first like to welcome Chris. Chris is 25 from Unalaska. Many of the Board members recognized 26 him and remembered him when we had our meeting there 27 last fall. 28 29 And I'd like to also take the time to 30 thank Tom. We're going to miss him. He's been very 31 instrumental and helpful with this Council for many, 32 many years. And he's one of my toughest caribou 33 warriors that I have, besides Pat, so I'm definitely 34 going to miss him a lot, and we hope that somewhere 35 down the line they put your name back in so we don't 36 lose all that experience. 37 38 And move on to the review and adopt 39 agenda. There's a couple things I'd like to move up. 40 And that will be after 9, and we'll do Steve 41 Delehanty's report and also Mark, is it Woodabee (ph), 42 ADF&G, because they have to leave. And then there are 43 also the red marks on the agenda are additions that 44 were added on from the one that was put in the initial 45 binder. 46 47 So if we could have a motion to approve 48 the agenda, or is there any other items on the agenda 49 that anyone would like added prior to us approving 50

Page 6 1 this. Karen. 2 3 MS. DEATHERAGE: Thank you, Madame 4 Chair. Would it be okay if I read the added items, 5 because people in the audience do not have the amended 6 agenda. 7 8 Under number 10, old business, we're 9 adding the special action, Unimak Island caribou, and 10 we're also adding an update on the Board of Game 11 proposals. Under new business we're adding the Council 12 charter and the Secretarial order update. And then 13 under ADF&G we're adding the wildlife update. 14 15 Thank you. 16 17 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Rick, did you 18 have an addition. 19 20 MR. KOSO: I'd like to make a motion to 21 approve the agenda with the amendments. 22 23 MR. ROHRER: Second. 24 25 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Motion made and 26 approved. All in favor signify by saying aye. 27 28 IN UNISON: Aye. 29 30 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Opposed same 31 sign. 32 33 (No negative votes) 34 35 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Motion carried. 36 37 Next item on the agenda is election of 38 officers. And we don't know if Mitch is going to make 39 it or calling in. Karen. 40 41 MS. DEATHERAGE: Thank you, Madame 42 Chair. No, I have not heard from Member Simeonoff this 43 morning. 44 45 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. Thank 46 you. We'll open the floor for the Chair for the 47 Kodiak/Aleutians. 48 49 Pat. 50

Page 7 1 MR. HOLMES: Madame Chair. I'd like to 2 nominate you, because you run a really tight meeting. 3 4 MR. ROHRER: I would second that. 5 6 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Any other 7 nominations. 8 9 MS. CHERNOFF: I'd like to nominate 10 Rebecca Skinner for Chair. 11 12 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Do I hear a 13 second. Yeah, that is correct; actually you don't 14 need to second your nominations. 15 16 So we have two nominations. 17 18 Any other nominations. 19 20 (No comments) 21 22 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Hearing none, 23 have a motion to close. 24 25 MR. KOSO: Make a motion to close. 26 27 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Do I hear a 28 second to the motion. 29 30 MS. BERNS: Second. 31 32 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Second made by 33 Melissa. Call for question. 34 35 MR. KOSO: Question. 36 37 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Question's been 38 called. All in favor signify by saying aye. 39 40 IN UNISON: Aye. 41 42 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Opposed same 43 sign. 44 45 (No negative votes) 46 47 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: So you can take 48 your little yellow tabs and write who you're voting for 49 and pass them to Melissa. 50

Page 8 1 (Pause -- voting) 2 3 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. Melissa, 4 do you want to go ahead and just read them out loud 5 or..... 6 7 MS. BERNS: Want me to do that or just 8 count them. 9 10 SEVERAL COUNCIL MEMBERS: Just count 11 them. 12 13 MS. BERNS: Okay. Madame Chair, we've 14 got seven for Della and two for Rebecca. 15 16 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you, 17 Melissa. And thank you, everyone. 18 19 At this time we'll open the floor for 20 the Vice Chair. Can we hear nominations for the Vice 21 Chair. 22 23 MR. KOSO: I'll nominate Rebecca 24 Skinner. 25 26 MR. ROHRER: I'll nominate Rebecca. 27 28 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. We've got 29 two nominations for Rebecca. Do I hear any other. 30 31 (No comments) 32 33 MR. KOSO: Question. 34 35 MR. ROHRER: Make a motion that 36 nominations close. 37 38 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Is there a 39 second. 40 41 MS. BERNS: Second. 42 43 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Second by 44 Melissa. Rick called the question. All in favor 45 signify by saying aye. 46 47 IN UNISON: Aye. 48 49 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Opposed same 50

Page 9 1 sign. 2 3 (No negative votes) 4 5 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Motion carried. 6 7 And now we'll open the floor for the 8 secretary. 9 10 MR. ROHRER: Nominate Melissa Berns. 11 12 MR. KOSO: Second. 13 14 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Any other 15 nominations. We have Melissa at this time. 16 17 MR. ROHRER: Motion to close. 18 19 MR. KOSO: Second. 20 21 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Motion made and 22 second to close. Question. 23 24 MR. ROHRER: Question. 25 26 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Question's been 27 called. All in favor signify by saying aye. 28 29 IN UNISON: Aye. 30 31 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Opposed same 32 sign. 33 34 (No negative votes) 35 36 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Motion carried. 37 So we have our officers. Myself as the Chair, Rebecca 38 Skinner as the Vice Chair, and Melissa Berns at the 39 secretary. And we're good for another year, guys. 40 41 At this time we will look at the 42 minutes of the last meeting. Have a motion to approve. 43 They start on Page 4 in your binder. 44 45 MS. SKINNER: Sorry, Madame Chair. If 46 there's corrections, do you want those as part of 47 discussion or do you want them now. 48 49 Thank you. 50

Page 10 1 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Go ahead. 2 3 MS. SKINNER: Move to approve the 4 minutes. 5 6 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Motion made to 7 approve the minutes. Is there a second. 8 9 MS. CHERNOFF: Second. 10 11 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Second by Coral 12 or Rick. Under discussion I think we could talk about 13 any changes or corrections. 14 15 Coral. 16 17 MS. CHERNOFF: I'd like to just make a 18 spelling correction. On Page 11, under Buskin River, 19 the Alaska Department of Fish and Game, to have 20 Witteveen's name changed from Witterveen to Witteveen. 21 Take out the R, please. It's there twice in that 22 paragraph. 23 24 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Any other 25 corrections. 26 27 (No comments) 28 29 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Hearing none, 30 have call for question. 31 32 MR. ROHRER: Call for the question. 33 34 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: The question's 35 been called. All in favor signify by saying aye. 36 37 IN UNISON: Aye. 38 39 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Opposed same 40 sign. 41 42 (No negative votes.) 43 44 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Motion carried. 45 There was a lot of pages to those minutes. 46 47 Okay. We will move on to Council 48 reports. Antone, do you want to start with you; are 49 you ready? Council report for Akutan. 50

Page 11 1 MR. SHELIKOFF: I didn't write anything 2 down this time, but it's been a little bit busy. I see 3 the same animals. I got my share of the seasonal sea 4 ducks. I haven't noticed any emperor geese taken. 5 6 But that was it. 7 8 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you, 9 Antone. 10 11 Rick. 12 13 MR. KOSO: You know, well, Adak has 14 been doing real well this year. The fish plant kicked 15 in and they have a new owner to the plant, Golden 16 Harvest Seafoods. A Canadian firm. And they've been 17 processing cod out there presently and doing very well. 18 Lots of cod; so that's good. They've done a lot of 19 crab. They've been sending out live crab, and they've 20 sent a couple plane loads direct to China from Adak. 21 So things have been working well. 22 23 As far as the subsistence part of it 24 goes, everybody seems pretty happy with the 25 subsistence. We don't have a substantial amount of 26 population there, so we're in pretty good shape on that 27 matter. So there's no problem with the resources. 28 29 Caribou seems to be maintaining. We've 30 been having a lot of hunters come through as usual for 31 the last few years, but it just seems like they're able 32 to get the caribou on the north end of the island, and 33 the south end is pretty safe. So we very seldom get 34 anybody to the south side of the island. So I think 35 the caribou are safe as far as being depleted, and I 36 think they're taking enough of them to maintain a good 37 count. So I'd like to see a count eventually here to 38 see what it is. 39 40 But that's all I have. 41 42 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you, Rick. 43 44 Pat. 45 46 MR. HOLMES: Madame Chair. I made an 47 effort to call all the villages and tribal councils 48 except on Melissa's turf and Mitch's at Akhiok, just to 49 let them know about our meeting, and to give them the 50

Page 12 1 teleconference number. And I suspect some of them will 2 be calling in. And then I think we'll have a nice 3 report from Sun'aq and Kodiak folks. 4 5 And just my general observations and 6 chatting with folks, of course, the bad winter we had a 7 year ago knocked down the deer in some places quite a 8 bit. I know my wheezing efforts on the road system 9 were not to avail, because the few I could see were 10 beyond my 74-year-old capacity any more. But 11 fortunately one of the guys that lives down the street 12 brought me a big box of meat that I shared with several 13 widows and folks that I know. 14 15 I think one of the overwhelming 16 concerns that I heard from all over the island is even 17 though sea otters are not our turf, the effects of them 18 have been severe. The Womens Bay no longer has any 19 harvestable king crab or tanner crab or Dungeness. I 20 tried the mouth of the Buskin, because I heard somebody 21 got some Dungeness when I was gillnetting, and I went 22 out and put out my ring nets like I used to be able to 23 do, you know, 10 years ago you'd get your limit in 24 about on gillnet set, and I got nothing except to have 25 four sea otters swimming around my skiff chattering at 26 me and wanting me to go away. 27 28 I think a big thing that's going to 29 affect our town economically and also subsistence, is 30 the potential regime shift in the ocean and the 31 warming. We've lost all of basically the large fish, 32 the spawners for cod. They only took half of the 33 commercial quota. Pollock is fishing completely gone. 34 Recruits practically. The halibut quota's been 35 readjusted down. The halibut are smaller. King salmon 36 are smaller age. The dominant age class of what used 37 to be the really big migrants, the 60-pounders, is 38 almost non-existent from what I've heard from some of 39 the folks in Fish and Game in Southeast. 40 41 And I'm just wondering when we're going 42 to start -- I was gabbing with some Tlingits I knew in 43 Sitka yesterday, and they've been taking squid down in 44 Sitka, and that's about the same latitude as we are. 45 And I wonder when we're going to see this warming 46 affect our herring population that I know for my 47 pickled herring. I love them, and I haven't got a 48 recipe yet for squid. And so things are changing big 49 time in the ocean, and I think that's something that 50

Page 13 1 everyone regardless of their agency or where they live 2 need to be aware about because I don't know where we're 3 going. If it's going to be squid and mackerel or tuna 4 or what the heck, you know. I just kind of like the 5 things we used to eat. 6 7 Thank you, Madame Chair. 8 9 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you, Pat. 10 11 Melissa. 12 13 MS. BERNS: I recently moved into 14 Kodiak this fall from Old Harbor; however, I do get out 15 there quite a bit to visit my family and subsistence 16 harvest. And I'm still actively involved with our 17 local politics. So I'm keeping the loop on things 18 going on in the village, although I'm not living 19 there. 20 21 We so far have had a really good 22 winter. It's been fairly mild out in Old Harbor. The 23 last time I was out there, my garden was still all 24 green, and growing, and it was just kind of nice to get 25 some fresh kale. 26 27 We had our tribe's annual meeting in 28 November, and three bear permits were drawn at that 29 time, so hopefully we'll have some folks going out and 30 harvesting some bears this spring for the community. I 31 did get some bear meat from this fall and so I'll be 32 sharing that tonight at the potluck for those of you 33 that attend. 34 35 It was nice that we had a great, great 36 salmon run, and not very many problem bears around the 37 community, which was a change from the year previous, 38 so that was good for our community and public safety. 39 40 Not having very much cod has been a 41 problem for our local economy, because we do have a 42 fishing fleet that's dependent on that fishery, and 43 none of our boats are actually fishing cod this season, 44 because it's just not worth the effort. But they were 45 able to participate in the tanner opening, and so we're 46 thankful for having that. 47 48 There is continued concern for dragging 49 near Sitkalidak Straits, as that is our primary 50

Page 14 1 subsistence area for the community. And there's been 2 low harvest numbers for halibut in the area. People 3 have been having to go out further away from the 4 village for harvesting halibut. 5 6 We've had good deer and goat numbers, 7 and people are taking advantage of that to fill their 8 freezers this winter. 9 10 Surprisingly not very many people took 11 advantage of the emperor goose hunt, but we are seeing 12 emperor geese in larger numbers close to the village, 13 which is a surprise compared to recent years. I think, 14 oh, two weeks ago my brother said he was out at Bush 15 Point, which is right around the corner from our 16 village, and had seen 200 emperors there, so that was 17 -- it just hasn't been reported in who knows how long 18 to have numbers like that. 19 20 Sea otters. They're not our favorite, 21 and people seem to do a very good job at getting the 22 word around and harvesting them as soon as they're seen 23 around the community. We value our shellfish beds and 24 so -- but they are seeing a lot more. Just last week I 25 think three people had told me that they'd harvested 26 sea otters near Old Harbor. And so they are becoming 27 more abundant. 28 29 And I think lastly we recently had some 30 young boys go out and harvest a sea lion and some 31 seals, and they disbursed that throughout the village, 32 but we also were able to get it here into Kodiak to our 33 elders and also up into Anchorage and disburse that to 34 our elders in Anchorage so that they can have their 35 subsistence foods this winter. 36 37 That's all I have. 38 39 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you, 40 Melissa. 41 42 Sam. 43 44 MR. ROHRER: Thank you, Della. Just a 45 couple things I want to highlight. The deer situation 46 on the west side where my experience is, is real bad. 47 It doesn't seem like they were hit near as hard maybe 48 around Afognak and further to the south end and on the 49 east side. But certainly on the west side maybe a 50

Page 15 1 population loss as high as 70 percent, maybe higher. 2 It was pretty bad. So there's that. 3 4 I just want to talk briefly about the 5 emperor goose season. I was surprised as well that 6 participation was quite a bit lower on the road system 7 in the State season this fall. I can say I was on of 8 the first to get my permit, but, yeah, there weren't 9 very many permits actually issued. I was pretty 10 surprised about that, and harvest was substantially 11 lower than that I thought it would be. The folks who 12 did go were -- you know, the folks that did participate 13 were thrilled to have that opportunity. Some had 14 hunted them years ago, and they were just thrilled to 15 have the opportunity to go back and do it. And there 16 was actually quite a few young people that I talked to 17 that participated that had , of course, never even had 18 a chance to harvest them before. So I think the folks 19 who went out and tried were able to harvest them, and 20 were pretty excited for the opportunity. 21 22 The last thing I want to just mention, 23 and I don't know if ADF&G will be talking about that at 24 all, but DLPs on bears islandwide is up substantially. 25 Well, not this year, but for '17. And that's a 26 concern. And it will be interesting to see what 27 happens in '18. But definitely that's a big concern 28 with the number of DLPs. 29 30 So that's all I have. 31 32 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you, Sam. 33 34 Chris. 35 36 MR. PRICE: Hi, good morning. So 37 Unalaska Bay has been a concern for a number of the 38 residents for some time. And a couple years back we 39 were able to get a trawl closure inside Unalaska Bay, 40 and as a result we've seen increases in king salmon and 41 cod and halibut. And so that's something that's been a 42 positive for us. There's actually some people starting 43 to sport fish for kings inside our bay now, which we 44 really haven't seen at all. 45 46 So the tanner crab fishery is just 47 winding down. It hasn't been that successful. 48 49 We've got a fish weir project in 50

Page 16 1 Iliuliuk River, which is right in Unalaska, and we've 2 been trying to see what we could do to enhance the 3 fishery there and actually get some baseline on the 4 stock there primarily for the sockeye. And so we're 5 working on that locally in the community. A number of 6 folks, Unalaska Native Fishermen's Association and the 7 Tribe and other organizations are working together on 8 that. 9 10 We are going to have a herring gillnet 11 fishery this summer, and we aren't feeling the fact 12 that cod is going down other places. Other boats and 13 folks, a guy I met from Juneau yesterday on a plane, 14 he's going to move out to Unalaska to fish cod now. So 15 we'll probably be watching our cod stocks really 16 closely as well under these new type of regime that are 17 happening with -- out in the ocean there. 18 19 That's about all I have. 20 21 Thank you. 22 23 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you, 24 Chris. 25 26 Rebecca. 27 28 MS. SKINNER: Thank you. So I'll echo 29 some of the comments about the regime shift. For the 30 Gulf of Alaska, the cod stocks were 80 percent down, 31 which is a huge drop. And I know this affects a lot of 32 our region. And the biological reports posit that it 33 had something to do with the blob and the warm waters. 34 But I think we're in a time as Pat Holmes noted, where 35 this could be a regime shift, and these could be long 36 term. 37 38 As far as the cod, they're expecting 39 the cod to be down for the next three to five year. 40 This isn't something that's going to recover 41 immediately. 42 43 Halibut is also down. I was at the 44 International Pacific Halibut Commission meeting in 45 Portland, which ended up being a historic meeting, 46 because the U.S. and Canada could not agree on how to 47 allocate the halibut, and that's only the second time 48 that's happened in I think 94 years. So that was a 49 pretty big deal, Everybody agreed that the halibut 50

Page 17 1 quotas needed to be reduced because the halibut stocks 2 were down, but they just couldn't agree on how to 3 allocate that between the different areas. 4 5 For sea otters, there was a handout at 6 everyone's place. It's a joint resolution from the 7 Alaska Senate, and it has to do with sea otters, 8 requesting co-management for otters. And I found that, 9 I thought it would be useful for this group to know 10 what's going on in other places as far as the sea 11 otters, because we're going to be talking about that 12 today. 13 14 And then the last thing, just for 15 information, a biologist, Steve Barbeau is going to be 16 at Com Fish here in Kodiak and he's the biologist who 17 worked on the cod report, so he'll be able to talk 18 about the cod stocks and his findings. So anyone who's 19 interested in that, I don't know when he'll be 20 presenting, but Com Fish is March 22nd through 24th 21 this year. 22 23 And that's all I have. 24 25 Thank you. 26 27 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you, 28 Rebecca. 29 30 Coral. 31 32 MS. CHERNOFF: Hi. So I am going to 33 talk a little bit more about handicraft, which is an 34 area that we usually don't spend so much time on. This 35 year I did a lot of art classes and handicraft classes. 36 I opened -- well, I moved stuff out of my house. I 37 have a studio, so I'm able to teach classes. So in 38 teaching that as well as healthy sustainable food 39 resource, having art classes in the area of handicraft 40 kind of gives me a platform for outreach and education 41 about taking care of the environment, taking care of 42 our animals, and I get to connect with small groups of 43 people where we spend anywhere from one to 15 hours 44 together. My age range in classes has been from like 6 45 years old to 80 years old. So I get to connect with 46 all kinds of people. This year I think I had about 10 47 classes in about 6 different areas of handicraft. I 48 was able to reach about 85 people. So it's just a 49 really great place for me to talk about cultural uses 50

Page 18 1 of resource, the environment, how even if you don't use 2 the resource and hunt and fish, how you can take care 3 of the environment and how you can be part of the whole 4 healthy ecosystem. So it's something I really enjoy, 5 and I encourage other communities to -- you know, we 6 have culture camps, but encourage communities to maybe 7 develop art programs throughout the year where you can 8 really reach quite a lot of people and start to educate 9 kids from young about taking care of their environment, 10 not trashing it, being respectful of animals, taking 11 only what you can use -- only what you need. 12 13 I also worked on an art project with 14 Sun'aq Tribe and the Refuge, Lisa Hubb applied for a 15 grant and we received a grant to work with birds, and I 16 talked about it at the last meeting. But we were able 17 now -- the theme was migratory birds, culture and art. 18 And the theme was bouncing back, so we had an 19 opportunity to talk a lot about emperor geese and how 20 they haven't been hunted, and we saved them and watched 21 them and studied them, and how we're able to hunt them 22 again. So we did an activity at the Refuge so far. 23 Lisa and I flew out to Larsen Bay and we worked with a 24 class full of kids for about three hours I think we 25 worked on that. And then we're going to be in Akhiok 26 in March. And then during spring break I'm going to 27 have an activity for some older, middle school/high 28 school age kids. 29 30 And I'll just say, too, with the 31 emperors there was a lot less hunting pressure than was 32 anticipated with the emperors. I know there was really 33 low numbers of take, and I think probably in our area 34 -- it seemed be all over Alaska, but in our area 35 specifically I know access is an issue, because you 36 have to hunt 500 feet offshore. Sun'aq, we have a 37 spring hunt road closure committee that we're working 38 on opening the road for the spring subsistence hunt. 39 So that's still active. 40 41 And then I guess in looking at 42 handicraft and working with handicraft, I also can see 43 that there's kind of some gaps in our handcrafts. 44 There's some things that -- areas where handcraft isn't 45 allowed. Also in working with AMBCC I went to a 46 statewide meeting last year, and we talked about 47 expanding the handcraft to include teaching. I know 48 there's a lot of areas of teaching at camps and there's 49 lots of questions about, well, who can work on seal? 50

Page 19 1 Can only Native kids work on seal? Who can work on 2 seal. At what point can someone touch seal and sea 3 otter, and all these. And so there's kind of some big 4 gaps in the handcraft as we've moved forward from 5 people just making things and selling things to now 6 there's lots of groups around the State that are 7 teaching. So there's a few gaps that we're working on. 8 9 Also I'm on the handicraft committee 10 with AMBCC and they worked on use of birds in 11 handicraft, and then they've decided to continue that 12 board and move forward -- continue that committee and 13 move forward and work on some of those other things, 14 like the gaps in, you know, areas of teaching where 15 there seems to be sort of gray areas in the law. 16 17 So I guess that's my report. 18 19 Thank you. 20 21 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you, 22 Coral. I'll go ahead and do my area. 23 24 As everybody said, the cod, and there's 25 definitely the changes there. The guys fished in 26 January, now they're off for the month of February, and 27 will start again in I think the 7th of March. So it's 28 kind of interesting to see with their adjustments and 29 changes going on. 30 31 Caribou. I did do the subsistence 32 permits out of my office this year, and I believe I did 33 seven permits. Haven't gotten any harvest reports. 34 And two designated hunter permits. 35 36 Caribou kind of -- they were really 37 slow I think this fall/winter, and finally I think this 38 past month in January people are starting to see them 39 again. So they had to have been not close in the area, 40 but people are starting to harvest them now I think 41 more so than they had in the past months. 42 43 Sea otters. A big concern with the 44 Nelson Lagoon loss of the sea otters, and some theory 45 that I've heard from some of the people is basically 46 that they believe they're starving. They think. Up in 47 that area they've been seeing a lot more sea otters, 48 and in fact killer whales in the Port Moller area in 49 the last four, five years that haven't been there in 50

Page 20 1 the past, so it will be kind of interesting to see what 2 the report comes back on what people are seeing in 3 regard to the sea otters. 4 5 Emperor geese. I'll have to say in 6 Cold Bay that there was not a problem with people 7 harvesting emperor goose. In fact, there was a 8 tremendous amount of hunters -- sport hunters going in 9 to get their one bird to add to their collection. And, 10 in fact, one guide was in King Cove I think almost 11 right before Thanksgiving, in November, which I've 12 never seen guides in there that late with some hunters. 13 And that particular guide, it was also brought to my 14 attention that he'd been hunting on King Cove 15 Corporation lands and had not contacted us. He got 16 weathered in in King Cove, and fortunately I checked 17 him into the hotel, so we had a talk. 18 19 (Laughter) 20 21 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: But he never 22 came back to my office the next day, so I will talk 23 with Greg about the gentleman when I get back to Cold 24 Bay. We definitely want people to be mindful and 25 respectful of other land ownership. 26 27 I think we're going to be don't some 28 work with one of the Staff members from Izembek in May 29 with the kids on learning some gun safety rules and bow 30 and arrow and doing some other projects. We've tried 31 to do this a couple times and it hasn't worked, but our 32 goal is to get this done, and the kids really enjoy 33 doing this, too. And it's a fun project. So we'll be 34 doing that I think in May. 35 36 Kate Reedy (ph) will start the work 37 that she had done on the surveys in the next -- I think 38 by mid March they're supposed to be in King Cove to 39 start that. And the State did theirs last year. So 40 we'll see how that goes. 41 42 Other than that, another mild winter. 43 No snow. Not cold like the year before, so it's going 44 to be interesting to see what kind of summer we have. 45 46 But that's I believe all I have to 47 report for my area. 48 49 And thank you, everyone, for the 50

Page 21 1 reports. Good information. 2 3 Karen, I don't have the Chair's report. 4 Did Mitch -- do you have anything from Mitch? 5 6 MS. DEATHERAGE: No. 7 8 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: And before we 9 move on, can we have the people that came on line after 10 we first started introduce themselves, please. 11 12 (No comments) 13 14 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. 15 16 MR. HOLMES: Madame Chair. 17 18 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Pat. 19 20 MR. HOLMES: I was hoping that -- 21 Ronnie Lind called me up and we talked quite a bit 22 yesterday. He lives in Karluk. And I was hoping he 23 would call in, but he's just as forgetful as I am. He 24 did mention a couple things to me, one I'll get him 25 connected with ADF&G on one issue. 26 27 But on the other, that he was quite 28 concerned about was that emperor goose season, because 29 over at Karluk that used to be a really important 30 species for subsistence. And he said basically the 31 season as it exists is -- anyway I'll delete the 32 adjectives -- doesn't work. And he was supporting the 33 effort of AMBCC and then our input on trying to get a 34 broader season for when the birds are available to 35 Kodiak folks, because, you know, one goose in a sport 36 season when they're not here doesn't mean anything at 37 all. And so he was really hoping to see things get 38 more flexible and going back to a traditional time for 39 them to hunt. 40 41 Thank you, Madame Chair. 42 43 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you, Pat. 44 45 Anybody else. 46 47 (No comments) 48 49 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Also just to 50

Page 22 1 note, and I forgot to mention this when we started -- I 2 forgot a couple things, too. I just noticed it. We 3 didn't do the invocation, Pat. 4 5 MR. KOSO: I was going to ask about 6 that. 7 8 MR. HOLMES: Well, I'd like to 9 apologize. I..... 10 11 REPORTER: Mic, please. 12 13 MR. HOLMES: I forgot Liam, the Alutiiq 14 solar spirit that I usually use as a talking point, and 15 I couldn't find it, didn't remember where I put it, 16 because when we visit, I hide some of my carvings at 17 home. So being as we'll be talking about these little 18 critters here, I brought a little card for a focal 19 point. 20 21 But I'd like to just -- let's have a 22 moment and say the Lord's prayer, but before that, we 23 need to think about our role in trying to help the 24 folks in our community be able to continue with their 25 customary and traditional harvest of foods and the 26 cultural relationships that exist within that, because 27 Kodiak and Aleutians is a broad geographic area, but 28 the people are -- we all live on the same island so to 29 speak and share the same values. So with that said, 30 let's strive to do the best we can for everyone. 31 32 And so then we'll go to the Lord's 33 prayer. 34 35 IN UNISON: (Lord's prayer) 36 37 MR. HOLMES: I was kind of hoping that 38 Rick would help me out, but he slips up, too. 39 40 Thank you. 41 42 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you, Pat. 43 44 All right. Public and tribal comments 45 on non-agenda items is available each morning. I also 46 -- this Council has also kind of left that open. If 47 anybody has any comments or would like to speak to 48 anything, I believe there used to be a blue form that 49 you fill out and that can be brought up here, and we 50

Page 23 1 can just add you in the agenda as we go. 2 3 Karen. 4 5 MS. DEATHERAGE: Thank you, Madame 6 Chair. I just received a text asking if Nate Svoboda 7 could present his wildlife report today. It looks like 8 he might be in the air tomorrow. And so the Council 9 can approve that if they wish. 10 11 Thank you. 12 13 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Any objections. 14 15 (No comments) 16 17 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: And we might 18 just, if it's okay, we can just move that after Mark. 19 We've Steve, then Mark, and then Nate. 20 21 Okay. We'll go ahead and -- you're 22 Mark? 23 24 MR. LANCE: No. Madame Chair. My name 25 is Tom Lance with Sun'aq Tribe. Is it appropriate for 26 me to make a comment right now just in general? 27 28 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Yes. 29 30 MR. LANCE: Thank you very much, 31 everybody. On behalf of Sun'aq Tribe, I'd like to 32 welcome you here in Kodiak for some of the new members, 33 and the rest of you who do what you do to help us 34 protect and ensure that our historic and subsistence 35 resources are managed well and in a sustainable manner. 36 37 I'd like to also say that we're very 38 pleased with the cooperative efforts by Fish and Game 39 and the Coast Guard and the Soil Conservation District 40 here locally on the steps being taken to address the 41 crayfish issue that may or may not be an issue in 42 Buskin Lake, and that's what we're trying to find out. 43 And you'll be hearing more about that later today from 44 my biologist, Kelly Krueger. 45 46 And on that note, too, we will be 47 hiring three crayfish technicians, and there's flyers 48 on the back table here announcing those positions, so I 49 encourage you to pick one up and pass them around in 50

Page 24 1 your community. The positions are three different 2 levels of expertise, and you can see what that is 3 about. 4 5 And then also we are happy that we will 6 be also resuming the tribal youth intern program, and 7 that's funded through BIA. And this year we're hiring 8 for sure two youth interns, and you have to be a tribal 9 member or American Indian, Alaskan or from down below. 10 11 And then finally I was debating whether 12 to say anything or not, that personally as well as with 13 the tribe, we're concerned about what we see happening 14 on Narrow Cape. So far we've seen the development of 15 Alaska Aerospace Corporation and the footprint that 16 they've had was fair small, and it only included the 17 launch pad and a few other small buildings that managed 18 the place. But, you know, that area has been the last 19 end of the road place where Kodiak Natives as well as 20 community members can go out and enjoy gathering of 21 mostly vegetation type subsistence resources, but also 22 a little bit of fishing out there. 23 24 There's been a tremendous increase in 25 the level of activity out there, and it was something 26 that we suspected might happen, but never was really 27 laid out clearly until recently here. Last December we 28 had a formal consultation -- let me back up -- an 29 informal consultation with Missile Defense Agency, and 30 they mentioned the possibility of a foreign force 31 coming to Kodiak and establishing a base on Kodiak to 32 test a missile. And indeed we just read about that in 33 the paper, kind of surprising that we will have the 34 Israelis here bivouacking almost 300 personnel out at 35 Narrow Cape to test a new missile. 36 37 I hope this isn't a sign of expansion 38 and further entrenchment of a military industrial 39 complex that will threaten subsistence and historic 40 uses. I think the folks at Old Harbor should watch 41 this, too. They're talking about dropping the pieces 42 and parts of missile testing next year 10 miles off 43 shore in the Dangerous Cape area. 44 45 So we have meeting minutes from that 46 meeting in December. And as soon as the -- as soon as 47 it's printed, I will share that with all the tribal 48 entities here on Kodiak. 49 50

Page 25 1 Finally, we're fortunate to have a 2 Staff member in the office who has worked with Stefan 3 Quinth on producing this book. And it's been out for a 4 little while, but he donated one for us to give to the 5 Council today to offer as a door prize or whatever. So 6 maybe later on today -- I'll put a little cup here at 7 the door and everybody can put their name in the hat, 8 and later today at your pleasure, you can have a 9 drawing and pass this out to whoever is the lucky 10 winner. 11 12 So thank you very much, and I look 13 forward to the rest of the meeting. 14 15 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you. 16 Okay. 17 18 Did you have a comment. 19 20 MS. MASON: I do. My name is Stephanie 21 Mason. I just wanted to further my introduction to you 22 all. KNA now has an environmental program. My title 23 is regional environmental coordinator, and I am 24 directly working with each of the environmental 25 coordinators in the villages as well as in town with 26 the tribes. It's been a pleasure hearing what the 27 programs have -- how they've developed already. 28 29 A huge concern that I have heard is the 30 direct impacts of the warming ocean waters and what 31 they're seeing in the coastline and how they want to 32 protect their subsistence lifestyle. So there has been 33 discussion of developing a regional water quality 34 sampling project. And this discussion has been had 35 with actually Sun'aq Tribe and NOAA. And they're very 36 supportive of these efforts. And there's been a lot of 37 interest with the individuals that I've been working 38 with. 39 40 And this is another part of my role is 41 to also actually ensure that hazardous waste and 42 backhauling is happening. So that's another large 43 project that I'm ready to take on and assist the 44 villages with that. 45 46 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you. 47 Under this environmental program, is that under the GAP 48 funds, I-GAP funds? 49 50

Page 26 1 MS. MASON: It is. And it's 2 consortium, so I just want to state that we are funded 3 after all tribes are funded for their I-GAP programs. 4 Yeah. So just an extra technical assistance to ensure 5 -- to reach their goals, yeah. 6 7 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: And I know in 8 our region they've been doing the water sampling I 9 think -- I want to say maybe through APIA, but it's 10 been being done for the last few years. 11 12 MS. MASON: That's great. That's 13 exactly -- I think Sitka is now on board, and the 14 Alutiiq Pride. So Chugach region started a regional 15 program, too, and it would look very similar to that. 16 Yeah, and great news. Bob has a Bercolater (ph), so 17 testing for ocean acidification would be huge to create 18 a baseline for that around our region. 19 20 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. Thank 21 you. 22 23 MS. MASON: Thank you. 24 25 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Is there anyone 26 else in the public. 27 28 (No comments) 29 30 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. Moving 31 on, we're going to go ahead -- what time is it here? 32 10:00 o'clock. 33 34 We'll go ahead to the Steve Delehanty 35 but before we do, can somebody explain to me what the 36 mics are on the table. 37 38 MR. PAPPAS: On the record, please. 39 40 MS. DESROCHES: Yeah. Okay. Hi, I'm 41 with KMXT public radio. As this is a public meeting, 42 I'll be recording and reporting on what you guys talk 43 about today, especially with regard to Kodiak. I hope 44 that's okay. 45 46 REPORTER: Identify yourself. 47 48 MS. DESROCHES: I'm Kayla with KMXT 49 public radio. Hi. Thank you. 50

Page 27 1 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you. You 2 might want to turn that mic back off. Thank you. 3 4 Okay. We'll go ahead and take a 10- 5 minute break so we can set up the projector for Steve. 6 7 (Off record) 8 9 (On record) 10 11 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: I think Steve is 12 ready for his report. Okay. If everybody's ready, 13 we'll go ahead and move on with Steve from the Maritime 14 Refuge. 15 16 MR. DELEHANTY: Thank you very much. 17 And thanks for taking time for me. Again, my name is 18 Steve Delehanty, and I'm the Refuge manager for Alaska 19 Maritime National Wildlife Refuge. 20 21 And I want to give you a quick little 22 on the screen there a map of the Refuge. I know I've 23 shown this to you before other times I've appeared, but 24 I think it's always good to have a refresher. The 25 Alaska Maritime National Wildlife Refuge is different 26 than most refuges in Alaska in that it's really spread 27 out. So it goes from the British Columbia border down 28 in Southeast out through, you know, the Gulf and the 29 Peninsula and the Chain, and all the way up north, 30 north of the Bering Straits. So it's very spread out 31 throughout coastal Alaska. It's about 2500 different 32 islands plus a couple of chunks of the mainland. So 33 that's the geography. It goes out beyond the 34 Kodiak/Aleutian Region, but, of course, this is kind of 35 the heart of it in many ways. 36 37 And I'd like to kind of condense down 38 what we do to these basic things. We do science work; 39 you know, we study wildlife on the Refuge, and we do 40 some management activities on these public lands to 41 benefit wildlife and people and such. And then we try 42 and make connections with help people connect to these 43 lands and the wildlife around them. And so I'm going 44 to talk about those three things just very briefly. 45 46 First, the science stuff. We do lots 47 of collaborative science with scientists from other 48 agencies and from universities and really frankly from 49 around the world who want to come out to this part of 50

Page 28 1 this world to study things. But we're most famous for 2 our annual monitoring of seabirds, because Alaska 3 Maritime Wildlife Refuge is, well, really the world's 4 most important seabird refuge. About 40 million 5 seabirds. Most of North America's seabirds breed on 6 Alaska Maritime Refuge. So we go to certain sites 7 shown on the map year after year after year. Other 8 sites we go to only occasionally as we can fit it in. 9 But on these sites we go to year after year, we have a 10 long term data. 11 12 And so we heard earlier today from the 13 members about concerns, for example, about the warming 14 ocean and changing species and things. But when you've 15 got 30, 40-year-long data of systems, which is what we 16 try -- are doing, you learn over time that using these 17 seabirds as kind of samplers in the ocean that they're 18 feeding their chicks different species, for example, or 19 they're having less success or more success. So our 20 biologists publish papers and collaborate with other 21 scientists, share the data, and they publish papers. 22 But we also do some simple things like what's up on the 23 screen now, which I call science for Refuge Managers, 24 because I can understand this. It's a chart showing 25 little egg icons with smiley faces and sad faces, and 26 it's like, okay, I get that one. A frowny face is bad 27 and a smiley face is good. So that's just one example. 28 That's only productivity. That's chicks fledged 29 essentially in different areas for different species, 30 and it's just one parameter that we look at. So that's 31 just a little quick snapshot of some of the science 32 stuff we do. 33 34 That second thing I talked about, 35 management, we're kind of famous for dealing with 36 different kinds of non-native species, especially foxes 37 that were introduced to a lot of islands through the 38 years. And it's been a remarkably successful program 39 through eradication of the introduced foxes. We've 40 done almost 50 islands that encompass just under a 41 million and a half acres. And, you know, it was 42 largely -- really important part of the delisting of 43 the Aleutian cackling goose, which is now a hunted 44 species, and the fact that we've ptarmigan on islands 45 where they had been lost for many years. And just lots 46 more waterfowl, lots more seabirds, lots more song 47 birds, things like that. So we did the fox work, and 48 we've done one island, Hawadax Island for rats, 49 eradicated rats, but we're left with a lot of islands 50

Page 29 1 that have rats still, and then some islands that have 2 ungulates, which is like cattle, horses, reindeer, 3 things like that. 4 5 And I just wanted to let the Council 6 know, we're kind of at a pause basically, because the 7 ungulates are often highly valued, like I was just 8 talking with Rick about the caribou on Adak. You know, 9 they were brought there artificially, but they're 10 treasured by the community a food resource, and, you 11 know, economic activity for non-local hunters, things 12 like that. And also it's not all Federal land. I 13 don't have any jurisdiction, nor should I, over the 14 Aleut Corporation lands and things like that. So we're 15 not really frankly pursuing anything with that. 16 17 We were -- I would love to, you know, 18 continue to collaborate with the Department of Fish and 19 Game and the community and the Aleut Corporation and 20 things in terms of management plans, but we recognize 21 that there are multiple points of view I guess. And so 22 we're really not doing anything on that. 23 24 We were really actively -- I came 25 before you a number of years ago talking about cattle 26 on Chirikof and Wosnesenski Islands, if you recall. 27 And that was something that -- those islands were 28 Federally owned and administered as part of the 29 Wildlife Refuge. And honestly I was really proud of 30 the process we were going through. It was very open; 31 it was very public. But I don't make the laws. My job 32 is to help implement them, and the political leaders in 33 the country, the Congress and the President, through 34 our appropriations, through the Federal funding bills 35 basically said, stop that, we don't want you to do that 36 work regarding the cattle on those islands, so, you 37 know, of course, we stopped, and we remain stopped. 38 And so I don't' see a change of that in the short term. 39 40 And in terms of the rats, we're at a 41 pause just because that's more of a technical problem. 42 It's very challenging to eradicate every single rat 43 from an island. If you've got, you know, 1,000 rats 44 and you kill 990 of them, it doesn't do you any good. 45 You've got to get all thousand of them. And it's not 46 impossible. There are other people doing it in 47 different places around the world, but we're still kind 48 of trying to evaluate the technical feasibility of 49 doing such a thin on large islands like Kiska or Great 50

Page 30 1 Sitkin or things larger than Hawadax Island, formerly 2 Rat Island, where we eradicated the rats a number of 3 years ago. 4 5 So we're just kind of at a pause on 6 that invasive species stuff. The foxes we're basically 7 done with. We completed Unalga Island last year, and 8 Chirikof Island fox eradication the year before that. 9 10 But I also want to say that just 11 because we're not taking any action doesn't mean that 12 there aren't any effects. So I'm just going to use 13 Cherikof, because it's well-known as the example. So, 14 you know, of course, I'm worried about the wildlife and 15 the fish habitat, and I'm sure you are, too. But on 16 Cherikof what really bothers me, to be honest with you, 17 more than anything is the historic and cultural 18 resources, because I think there's a lot of significant 19 damage occurring to them, and they're irreplaceable. 20 They don't recover once things -- once the management 21 on the island changes. So there's lots of erosion, 22 lots of changes that continue to occur at Cherikof. 23 And so just because we're not pursuing anything doesn't 24 mean that there aren't affects ongoing. 25 26 That's just another image of Cherikof. 27 28 Another thing related to Cherikof 29 that's a much -- also with a very sad history, but a 30 much happier recent outcome, was we were very pleased 31 the Fish and Wildlife Service worked really hard with 32 the Alutiiq Museum to finally bring remains back that 33 were taken from Cherikof Island some time ago. Quite a 34 long time ago. And that was -- you know it's a sad 35 history, but thanks to the law we usually call NAGPRA, 36 we were able to work with the museum and get the 37 remains brought back where they belonged. 38 39 So now in terms of kind of connecting 40 people, the third thing I said, we try and connect 41 people with those resources. We were really excited 42 last year to be able to bring descendants of the 43 Village of Attu back to Attu Island for the first time 44 in 75 years. We have spent a lot of time in 2017 and 45 continuing in 2018 honoring the 75th anniversary of 46 World War II in the Aleutians, and really it -- you 47 know, there was kind of the military component, but 48 also a huge, huge effect on villages and the Alaska 49 Native community, and nowhere more so than Attu where 50

Page 31 1 the people were imprisoned and brought to Japan, and 2 then after the war were not allowed to return and 3 resettle that community. And so last year our ship, 4 when we were going west, we set aside some days in our 5 schedule, and we brought descendants back to Attu so 6 they could see where their parents and their 7 grandparents had grown up; they'd not been back in 75 8 years. And for the first time in 75 years, weaving 9 grass, grass was harvested from Attu for reasons that I 10 do not understand. The grass from Attu is known as the 11 best for weaving purposes, and people were able to 12 gather grass from Attu, and so we're really happy and 13 honored to be able to be involved with that and make 14 that happen. 15 16 We also put an interpretative panel out 17 on Atka where the community, you know, like many others 18 was devastated by the war. The people were moved from 19 their homes and forced elsewhere in internment camps. 20 And we want to kind of honor that sacrifice through 21 this interpretation, and they provided a site in the 22 community where we could help tell that story. 23 24 And then I was very honored to be 25 allowed to go with -- to Funter Bay last year, which 26 was the site where the folks from St. Paul Island and 27 St. George Island were brought and forcibly interned by 28 their own government. And the Fish and Wildlife 29 Service, you know, because of roles in the fur seal 30 harvest that was going on in that era, has kind of a 31 shameful part of our own history as an organization, as 32 an institution. You know, we were the government 33 people that were involved in that. And I thought it 34 was incredibly gracious to invite me to go along. That 35 image that you're seeing shows the cemetery at Funter 36 Bay where a tragic number of people died during that 37 experience. 38 39 And the little inset photo shows some 40 rocks that my colleague, Crystal Leonetti and I 41 attended this and we picked up a handful of rocks from 42 the beach at Funter Bay and brought them to St. Paul 43 and gave them to the community to try and help make a 44 little bit of connection between Funter Bay and the 45 community of St. Paul. So on that image that you're 46 seeing now, that gentleman in the short-sleeved shirt, 47 that is Jim Kurth. He was the most senior person for 48 the Fish and Wildlife Service, so in charge of 49 everything that we do across the country, and he went 50

Page 32 1 to St. Paul with our regional director and with me, and 2 he issued a formal apology to the people of St. George 3 and St. Paul for our role in that internment 4 experience. There were a lot of tears, a lot of hugs. 5 It was a really, really moving experience. 6 7 Besides looking backwards, we also 8 looked forward. And we love to work with young people 9 in the various ways trying to connect them to the 10 wildlife and heritage and the beauty that's all around 11 them. We do that with our youth conservation corps is 12 one mechanism where these young people get employed for 13 a time during the summer months, and they get to 14 experience the refuge. They usually work on our 15 research vessel, and that was true last year. They do 16 everything from, you know, help in the galley to learn 17 how to navigate the ship to helping with biological 18 surveys with our biologists and things like that. It's 19 an incredible experience that they get. And some 20 people, like in this photo you can see Murianna Larson 21 who back in 2014 was one of these employees, she's from 22 Sand Point, and she was a YCC employee, and then 23 continued on working for us through the years and has 24 continued that relationship with the Fish and Wildlife 25 Service. And it really helps, I just think it helps 26 kind of both directions. It helps us understand 27 community perspectives and I think it helps the 28 communities understand what the Fish and Wildlife 29 Service is trying to do. So we're really proud of 30 those things, and for being able to help out at the 31 science and culture camps. We kind of try and bring a 32 little bit of a sciencey (ph) to the culture camps, and 33 those have been great. So we typically are involved in 34 Unalaska and on St. Paul Island and also in Sand Point. 35 And so any opportunities we have to reach out to 36 connect kids with the environment around them and 37 nature, we are keen on doing so. We're really proud of 38 that. 39 40 And that is my short report. I know 41 it's not traditional subsistence regulatory stuff, but 42 being able to grass from Attu in its own way is just as 43 an important heritage as, you know, fish or meat in the 44 freezer. So we are really proud of that. 45 46 So thank you for taking the time. 47 48 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you, 49 Steve. Is there any comments or questions from the 50

Page 33 1 Council for Steve. 2 3 Rebecca. 4 5 MS. SKINNER: Thank you. So you spoke 6 to basically a lack of funding to continue the 7 eradication efforts. Has there been any changes in 8 policy or you maintain the same policy, you just don't 9 have money to carry out the eradication, and what I 10 understood to be getting the Refuge lands back to their 11 kind of natural state. 12 13 MR. DELEHANTY: It isn't at least 14 initially a lack of money. I guess you could say it's 15 even more than a policy change. It's the law. 16 Congress embedded in the funding legislation said, you 17 are not allowed to use any money to do -- well, what 18 they really said was anything that involved removal or 19 killing of cattle on Cherikof or Wosnesenski Island, 20 although that wasn't -- we hadn't decided to do that 21 yet. All we were doing was trying to listen to people 22 at that point. But so it isn't that we don't have the 23 money to finish the environmental statement in terms of 24 budgets per se, but there's a caveat. I guess we don't 25 have the money in the sense that they are prohibiting 26 us from spending any of the money on that planning 27 effort. 28 29 And in terms of the rat work, it's 30 really we need to just do more thinking about that. It 31 would cost millions and millions and millions of 32 dollars, so there would be a big financial barrier, but 33 before we even get to the money, we have to figure out 34 how to do it. 35 36 MS. SKINNER: So you -- as I'm 37 understanding what you're saying, the prohibition for 38 eradication was specific to two islands. What about 39 ungulates in other locations; are you actively pursuing 40 eradication of those, or -- I guess I'm getting at has 41 the approach or policy in general of your agency 42 changed, or is the prohibition, it's just very specific 43 to those two locations? 44 45 MR. DELEHANTY: It's very specific to 46 those two locations, and a third location I didn't 47 mention, which is caribou on Kagalaska Island. So 48 those three sites are prohibited. 49 50

Page 34 1 Policy-wise, I don't think anything has 2 changed. The law -- other Federal laws still tell us 3 that we're supposed to manage for fish and wildlife 4 resources in their natural diversity, for example, and 5 things like that. And the Wilderness Act tells us, you 6 know, to value certain things. So in a sense there's 7 sort of conflicting laws, but we're not -- to get I 8 think where you're really headed, on other islands we 9 are not pursuing anything with ungulates either, 10 because -- well, it's just not the right priority. 11 Before we would figure out what to do, we'd have to 12 work with communities and figure out what their values 13 are and, you know, they're clearly -- people on Atka 14 clearly like having reindeer. People on Adak clearly 15 like having caribou. So we're just not going that way. 16 17 Those other two islands that I spoke 18 of, Kagalaska, Chirikof and Wosnesenski, the reason we 19 were working on them is because they were entirely 20 Federally owned, and they didn't have any human 21 habitation. They seemed like reasonable ones to start 22 working on. And since we were shut down, we've just 23 stopped. 24 25 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Steve, just 26 because Rebecca brought up a couple things that I was 27 going to talk about with you, normally I would the 28 Council talk first. But going back to your comments, 29 they basically were stopped. It was more Congressional 30 or it was -- and like you said, that may change in 31 years to come. But, Steve, I think a couple of things. 32 And I bring this up, because this is -- growing up and 33 living out there all my life, you know, it's been hard 34 for me to watch on some of these islands, I think Rick 35 was -- you know, some of these islands that Fish and 36 Wildlife just has gone in and killed everything without 37 any really discussion with anybody within the region, 38 and knowing that since then there's a consultation 39 process, but that process in my mind is a tough one 40 when you're dealing, and I brought this up many times, 41 when you're dealing with such a small population, and 42 you're dealing with environmental groups overall in the 43 rest of the nation, there's no comparison, and there's 44 no real number or way to figure out to balance that. 45 And that's what's hard for me in watching what is going 46 on out in Adak with those caribou, Wosnesenski and 47 Chirikof, you know, even if the people -- if we say 48 that people utilize that for subsistence, because they 49 don't have access to caribou or deer close by, you 50

Page 35 1 know. It seems to get overlooked. And I don't know 2 the answer to that. I don't know if there will ever be 3 an answer, just because of the way the process that's 4 set in place. 5 6 So I just -- you know, I have to say 7 I'm glad it happened and it was stopped, and I think it 8 also gives us an opportunity to try to figure out a 9 better way to address the concerns on both sides. One 10 of the things I had brought up in the past in regard to 11 this is a management plan for these islands, and 12 whether or not any efforts have been made, like working 13 with David Osterback and the people in Sand Point on 14 Wosnesenski and -- I guess that's my question. Has 15 there been any effort of trying to create a management 16 plan so at least the impacts can be managed in a sense. 17 18 MR. DELEHANTY: Well, part of -- I 19 mentioned before I was kind of proud of our process, 20 because I think what we were really overtly trying to 21 do was just exactly what you described, was really to 22 listen to people throughout on the Chirikof and 23 Wosnesenski issue. We didn't just come in and say, 24 here's what we're going to do and now we're consulting 25 with you. It was, we don't know what to do; we are 26 consulting with you. But all of that stopped with this 27 Congressional action. You know, they're the bosses, 28 and I need to do what I'm told. And, of course, I will 29 do that. So, no, we are not doing any -- you know, the 30 option, for example, of a management plan of some kind 31 for some sort of -- I don't know, like, for example, a 32 managed grazing program or something like that, the 33 environmental impact statement would have been the 34 venue for achieving that, but that all stopped. 35 36 There were other opportunities, like on 37 Chirikof there's been a lot of expressions of value for 38 the genetics of the herd, and the U.S. Department of 39 Agriculture has an animal genomics lab in the Lower 48. 40 They wanted genetic material from those animals to 41 salvage and use and whatever, either just as a -- 42 either for science or for active breeding, because 43 there's some value in the livestock industry, and I had 44 to tell them no, too, because the law prohibits me from 45 doing anything to those cattle, even things that I 46 think everybody would want. So it's been kind of 47 frustrating to me to not be able to deal with options. 48 49 But the bottom line is, to answer your 50

Page 36 1 question, no, we have not done anything with Mr. 2 Osterback or anybody else on the cattle on either 3 island, because I was instructed to stop all of that. 4 5 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. Thank 6 you. And then maybe a question in regard to the rats 7 on the islands that you did the work on. Has anybody 8 gone back to look, to see if any had come back, or 9 where are you at with that? 10 11 MR. DELEHANTY: Yes. There's been -- 12 rats that were eradicated from one island, Hawadax 13 Island, which used to be called Rat Island, and we have 14 gone back. Actually the conservation group, Island 15 Conservation, that's a private group that promotes 16 removal of invasive species from island. They were an 17 important part of that rat eradication in the 18 Aleutians, and they with our assistance have gone back 19 and documented an increase in bird life, and documented 20 the first presence, for example, of tufted puffins 21 breeding on that island. They had not been known to 22 breed on that island before, and were observed breeding 23 on the island after eradication. And I personally 24 never got to see it before, and this is an anecdote, 25 they're always dangerous. But when I have been to the 26 island after eradication, and to my ears and to my 27 eyes, it looks like the other islands look, you know. 28 There are song sparrows and song birds and ducks and 29 things on the island in numbers that I'm pretty sure 30 didn't occur there before, although I can't personally 31 attest to that. 32 33 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Rebecca. 34 35 MS. SKINNER: So given the 36 responsibility you have to manage to the natural 37 diversity on the islands or in the areas where you've 38 been prohibited from eradicating the invasive species, 39 are there monitoring efforts so that -- are you 40 tracking, continuing to track the negative impacts from 41 the invasive species, or has that work stopped as well. 42 43 MR. DELEHANTY: That's a great 44 question. There is very limited amount of work being 45 done, quite frankly. But that's true because there's 46 very limited work being done across the Refuge. So we 47 do our seabird monitoring and then we work with 48 individual scientists who might do, for example, there 49 was an archaeologist who worked on Chirikof a few years 50

Page 37 1 ago, and an ornithologist who worked on Chirikof a few 2 years ago, but we are not -- we're not going there 3 regularly to do regular monitoring, and I would love to 4 do it, but there's just -- the financial resources 5 aren't there, and the Staff aren't there. We have many 6 fewer employees than we had a few years ago, and we 7 just can't do it. 8 9 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Council. 10 11 Pat. 12 13 MR. HOLMES: Madame Chair. Or through 14 the Chair. Yeah, I completely empathize with Della, 15 and I've worked out in the Aleutians starting in the 16 early 60s, 80s, mid 90s, and have been to probably most 17 of the islands. I think that since you've come on 18 board, I think the process of interaction with the 19 public has improved immensely. Frankly I think you've 20 done a better job since any of your predecessors since 21 Sea Otter Jones. And while I don't agree on 22 eliminating cattle on Chirikof, I can certainly see 23 over the years that I -- I haven't been there lately, 24 but I saw some of Patrick Saltinstahl's (ph) photos, 25 and it's definitely over-grazed. And I would hope to 26 see sometime some compromise on some of these issues. 27 28 And I wanted to talk a little bit about 29 rats. Did you folks ever do any fox removal on Kiska. 30 I mean, your predecessors. 31 32 MR. DELEHANTY: Yes, I'm -- well, I 33 shouldn't say that. I'm not certain. I believe so. 34 There are no foxes on Kiska, and I believe there were 35 foxes on Kiska, but it predates me. But I believe 36 there was a fox eradication effort, but I can certainly 37 get back to you if you want to know. 38 39 MR. HOLMES: Well, I'm pretty sure 40 there was. It's just my memory's shaky, because when I 41 did my salmon survey of the Aleutians in '82, that was 42 probably the densest population of fox anywhere, and I 43 did report that to, oh, Fred Silamaker. The only guy 44 I've ever met at Adak that wore a formal Fish and 45 Wildlife Service outfit with his name tag on it. He 46 was a straight arrow from the States. But I did report 47 it to him, and I think they did go out and do the fox. 48 But I think a small bit of wisdom is when you're doing 49 fox, you should be looking at the whole system, because 50

Page 38 1 that was a island that had a incredible amount of rats 2 and the fox were feeding a good part of their time on 3 the rats and intertidal critters and on pink salmon. 4 And when the fox were gone, then from talking to Kodiak 5 folks that fish king crab out there, they said you go 6 on that old dock there in Kiska and have bloody little 7 buggers running up you legs. And so it needs to be 8 balanced if you are doing -- trying to do restoration. 9 10 And I know on Rat Island when those 11 occurred, and Rick could probably back me up, I know a 12 lot of the guys that were working on gold and king crab 13 fishery out there, some of them went ashore and told me 14 that they found, I don't know the facts or the actual 15 number, but numerous dead eagles. And, you know, 16 nobody knew what happened, but I can't help but wonder 17 if you're just leaving warfarin out to kill the rats 18 without having it in containers, then, you know, all 19 the eagles I've ever watched, if they see some fuzzy 20 little critter staggering around on the beach they're 21 going to eat them. So, you know, there's multiple 22 interconnections to bear in mind once you find some 23 reasonable midgrounds. And I do have hope and 24 confidence with your leadership, that those things will 25 happen, and I think the amount of interaction with the 26 folks at Adak and on the Peninsula is improving, and I 27 hope that you continue to lead in that direction so 28 that we can achieve reasonable balance. 29 30 Thank you. 31 32 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you, Pat. 33 34 Rick. 35 36 MR. KOSO: Yes. Steve, you know, on 37 the cows that you guys killed on Katense (ph) and 38 Simeonof, I think when you went out there and shot all 39 them cows, I think it was 300 and some on Katense and 40 I'm not sure on Simeonof, but I understood you just 41 took helicopters, went out and just killed them all off 42 and left them right on the island. That really turned 43 the stomachs on a lot of local people out in our 44 villages, especially, especially Sand Point, King Cove, 45 False Pass. And after you done that and then this 46 Wosnesenski came up after that, and there was a lot of 47 protest against that locally because of what you guys 48 did prior. And I think the people were very mad, 49 pissed off pretty much, on your guys' actions, because 50

Page 39 1 there was a lot of people in False Pass, King Cove, and 2 Sand Point that utilized the cattle that was on Katense 3 and Sunak (ph). And so I think it created a real bad 4 connection between Fish and Wildlife and the local 5 Native people in our region. And I think that was one 6 of the reasons we fought so hard on this Wosnesenski 7 deal to stop you guys. And I think we were successful 8 on that, but there are a lot of people that still 9 utilize Wosnesenski for getting the cows off of there. 10 I know there used to be some on Dog Island, and they're 11 totally gone now. There's none there any more. 12 13 And the Kagalaska, just on that hunt 14 out there, it seems to me that you guys spent a 15 tremendous amount of money to kill I think it was nine 16 caribou off of the Kagalaska. If I'm not mistaken, I 17 read somewhere where there was like $370,000 to kill 9 18 caribou. 19 20 Maybe I'm speaking out of turn or wrong 21 on that. Maybe you could correct me. 22 23 Thank you. 24 25 MR. DELEHANTY: Yeah. Thank you for 26 the comments. On Kagalaska, no, it wasn't $340,000. I 27 don't remember the number off the top of my head, but, 28 you know, it costs. If we're going to do -- our ship 29 costs us basically about almost $10,000 a day to 30 operate, so if it was three days of ship time, then you 31 can say 30,000 plus whatever the salary costs were to 32 fly people out there and stuff. So it was 50, 60,000 33 probably, but certainly not 300,000. But remember what 34 we were trying to do was to prevent a feeding 35 population from becoming established. Kind of do 36 something small at the beginning rather than something 37 big at the end. 38 39 Regarding the cattle, I totally -- I 40 certainly hear you, what you're saying on a bitter 41 taste being in people's mouth. I do want to let 42 anybody who's here or listening in know that the 43 story's a little bit more complicated than that, than 44 just showing up and killing cattle on Simeonof and 45 leaving them lay. There was a lot of effort at sharing 46 them and things, but that's all old history. 47 48 We made mistakes. We made mistakes on 49 Rat Island. And I'm making -- I'll make more mistakes 50

Page 40 1 tomorrow, I just don't want to keep making the same 2 mistakes. So I think, you know, listening, being open, 3 that's just kind of the only way to make any forward 4 progress. 5 6 So I really appreciate your comments. 7 8 Thanks. 9 10 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you. And 11 I think maybe to add to that, Steve, I mean, you know 12 about the EIS with the wolves in Unimak. That's an EIS 13 process we're going to lose. Bottom line. But also in 14 the same token, I think we understand the need to -- 15 that they're not over-grazed, that there is a need for 16 management. And I know for a fact that I talking to 17 David Osterback that he was willing to work with you 18 and possibly trying to do something as far as 19 management goes. 20 21 So my thoughts on this, and I don't 22 know where we go with it, or how, but maybe it's 23 something this Council can think about, not to do 24 something directly now, but possibly to get more 25 information for our next meeting, and that would be to 26 talk to David Osterback, and maybe look towards knowing 27 that there's a need to make sure that there's no over- 28 population. I don't know all the details or ownership 29 as far as Chirikof goes, but to look at possibly going 30 to the Federal Board and saying, hey, we don't want 31 these animals to be gone, we know, but we also know we 32 need some sort of plan in place for the future. And 33 it's something maybe the Council thinks about and how 34 we approach that at the next meeting, and whether we 35 even can. But that would be my suggestion. 36 37 Rebecca. 38 39 MS. SKINNER: Yeah, I'm supportive of 40 exploring the concept of a management plan. My concern 41 is that I think it was very unfortunate that we had to 42 get to the point of having Congressional action to stop 43 something that the local people were very concerned 44 about, and that apparently there was a lack of 45 understanding or a lack of attempt to understand how 46 the local people in the area valued and used the 47 resource. 48 49 So, one, I hope we can not have to 50

Page 41 1 resort to Congressional action again, because that's a 2 very blunt tool. I mean, I think that's probably not 3 the -- nobody wants to use that as the ideal management 4 tool. 5 6 My other concern, and the reason I was 7 asking about policy changes is, you know, three to five 8 years I'd hate to be back in the same place where all 9 of a sudden is appropriated to, you know, eradicate 10 these animals, and we're back in the same discussion. 11 At least if there's, you know, efforts toward a 12 management plan, there's some sort of formal process, 13 and hopefully, you know, a more formal process of 14 seeking input. And I know you said you did get input, 15 but then I'm confused as to why, if you were getting -- 16 if you got a lot of good input how we ended up in the 17 situation we're in. 18 19 So again I support the exploring this 20 management plan and formalizing some of these 21 interactions, conversations, and cooperation to manage 22 the resources effectively. 23 24 Thanks. 25 26 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Go ahead. 27 28 MR. DELEHANTY: Thank you. I just want 29 -- I appreciate the comments. I want to respectfully 30 disagree with just one element of it. I do think that 31 we -- I think we're making a very honest effort to 32 listen to people, and I heard a lot of people who value 33 cattle as meat, just for heritage, for genetics, for -- 34 you know, there were lots of different reasons. But I 35 also heard from people, both in Kodiak and from 36 elsewhere, you know, who didn't value them for various 37 reasons. So the odd part to me was that we stopped 38 right there. We didn't get to a point where we were 39 proposing, for example, to eliminate the cattle on 40 either island. We just hadn't gotten that far. We 41 were listening, and then we stopped. 42 43 But thank you for your comments. 44 45 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: I think, like I 46 said and Rick has said, the history and the process in 47 the past has not been in our favor, and that's where it 48 is. The mistrust is there. And when you're going 49 through the EIS process, it's not our regions or this 50

Page 42 1 section or just even the State as a whole. It's the 2 whole nation when you're doing this. And when you have 3 600,000 people in the United States saying no, and 4 1,000 within the region saying yes, there you are. And 5 that's the issue with the process. 6 7 And then just the dollar amount. It 8 was $90,000. I do remember. This was published. 9 10 But on a positive note though, Steve, 11 you know, I thank and we thank you for making the 12 effort to work with people in our region. And Pat is 13 right, that overall I think you've done a better job of 14 it than many people in the past. And we appreciate 15 that. And we know it's not going to be easy moving 16 forward, and I'm thankful there are people in our 17 region, both regions, that, you know, are very vocal, 18 and they strongly believe in what the people that they 19 represent and will push to do. 20 21 The no easy answer I think in either 22 way right now, but I think it's maybe something we can 23 try to look at in the future. 24 25 MR. KOSO: Yes, Steve, I just want to 26 say thanks, too. And I know you're a very easy guy to 27 talk with and talk to, so I just want to thank you for 28 your job you've been doing, and you've been doing an 29 excellent job so far. 30 31 And is there a chance we could turn the 32 lights on in here? I can't see my writing. 33 34 Thank you. 35 36 (Laughter) 37 38 MR. DELEHANTY: thank you to the 39 Council for all the time, and for flexing your schedule 40 to accommodate mine. I really appreciate it. 41 42 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you. 43 We're going to go ahead and change. I have Mark next 44 with ADF&G. 45 46 MR. BURCH: Madame Chair. This is Mark 47 Burch. I believe Lem Butler is on line and prepared to 48 address the Unimak caribou. I think that's probably 49 what your interest is. Is that correct? 50

Page 43 1 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: I'm not sure. I 2 was just asked to move Mark. We can while everyone's 3 here. We can go ahead if it's okay with..... 4 5 MS. DEATHERAGE: If you want. I think 6 Mark is trying to get out of here today. And..... 7 8 REPORTER: Mic, please. Mic. 9 10 MS. DEATHERAGE: Madame Chair. I 11 believe Mark needs to leave here today, so he was going 12 to go ahead and do that report. And we certainly can 13 go to Unimak before we hear Nate on the wildlife on 14 Kodiak, because I think he's available today. So 15 that's the choice of you as the Chair. 16 17 Thanks. 18 19 MR. BURCH: Is there two -- this is 20 Mark Burch. Is there another Mark that's due speak? 21 It's an awful common name. 22 23 MR. PAPPAS: Hey, Mark, George Pappas. 24 25 Yes, Mark Witteveen, the area assistant 26 manager for sport fish in Kodiak is, but he has to make 27 a flight to..... 28 29 MR. BURCH: Yeah, that's what I was 30 afraid of. Sorry about that. 31 32 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. Mark, if 33 you want to go ahead and introduce yourself and we'll 34 go ahead and move forward. 35 36 MR. WITTEVEEN: Thank you, Madame 37 Chairman. Yes, my name is Mark Witteveen. I'm 38 assistant area management biologist for sport fish for 39 Fish and Game in Kodiak. 40 41 And today I'll be summarizing the 42 Buskin River sockeye salmon stock assessment project. 43 There is a report in your packet here, so I'm going to 44 kind of focus on broad strokes results and some of the 45 stuff that we've been looking at since this report was 46 published. 47 48 As you probably know, this is our last 49 year of OSM funding. We've applied for more funding, 50

Page 44 1 and are anxiously awaiting results. Hopefully that 2 will come along soon so we can start planning and 3 hiring for this year. 4 5 This is results from the last couple 6 years of our stock assessment. As you can see, the 7 dark bar, and under 2017 represents the Buskin River 8 escapement. And the dotted lines are the escapement 9 goal that are 5 to 8,000 so we're hitting it right in 10 the middle there. Lake Louise escapement is a small 11 tributary to the Buskin that we also monitor with a 12 second weir, and you can see the numbers are very 13 small. There isn't an escapement goal established for 14 that system. And the escapement seems to be highly 15 variable over years and kind of dependent on weather 16 conditions. 17 18 Looking at the timing for Buskin River 19 sockeye escapement, it's represented in this graph. 20 The date is along the horizontal axis, and the left 21 vertical axis is the daily escapement. And right 22 vertical axis is the cumulative percentage. That is a 23 little bit earlier than normal. You can see much of 24 the escapement occurs in early June and late May. 25 26 Lake Louise, as I said, is a more 27 variable type of system. The daily escapement occurs 28 over just a couple days, and it usually has to do with 29 a rain event. 30 31 Back to the Buskin River, the blue line 32 that's smoothed represents the historical timing over 33 the last 10 years or so, and the red line is the 2017 34 timing. So you can see it's quite a bit early compared 35 to normal. And that made some of our sampling goals 36 challenging to get late in the season. 37 38 The subsistence fishery really kind of 39 reflected this earlier timing. It was focused on the 40 early part of the season and then kind of slowed down 41 and stopped by late June. 42 43 Looking at the age composition this 44 year, there are four main compositions in the system, 45 and the left series of bars represents samples from the 46 subsistence harvest from the Buskin River. The middle 47 series of bars represents the weir on the Buskin River. 48 And then Lake Louise on the right. Again Lake Louise 49 is a real small system, so I would take those results 50

Page 45 1 with a grain of salt, just because they're a very small 2 sample size. So the notable things to observe in this 3 are the high percentage of three ocean fish, or fish 4 that spent three year in the ocean versus a low 5 percentage of two ocean fish. That's typically more 6 balanced at the Buskin River. If we look at that over 7 a bigger time frame, you see that purpose bar really 8 stands out, that's ocean age three fish, and the blue 9 bar on the left under 2017 is very low. 10 11 We do see low percentages of single age 12 classes on occasion, but typically we don't see two 13 years -- or two different age classes, like the blue 14 bar and the green bar are both low. Usually when one 15 is low, the other is not. 16 17 And so without getting too far in the 18 weeds here, I knew Pat was going to ask about this 19 season. And most indications suggest that this season 20 is going to be good. We have no information for poor 21 lake conditions or anything like that. 22 23 But this low number of age 2 ocean fish 24 is a little bit notable. So I kind of took a deeper 25 look at that in response to what Pat was asking in the 26 last meeting, and so I'd like to go into sort of an 27 informal look at forecasting. And so this is a little 28 complicated, and I'll try to go over it. But when 29 you're forecasting salmon, salmon spend -- sockeye 30 salmon spend a couple years in the lake, one to two, 31 and then usually spend one to three years in the ocean. 32 And so in any given year you're getting fish back from 33 many different years. If we take, for instance age 2.2 34 fish has spent two years in the fresh water, two years 35 in the ocean. And if it comes back in say 2017, we can 36 compare that to an age 2.3 fish the next year. So 37 those fish are siblings. They have the same escapement 38 parents. They spent the same two years in the fresh 39 water, and two of the three years the same in the 40 ocean. So they relate together pretty well. And so we 41 can kind of get a glimpse of the future. And so this 42 chart on the horizontal graph -- horizontal axis shows 43 age two ocean fish, age 1.2 and 2.2 that occur in a 44 given year, and then on the vertical axis it shows age 45 three fish the next year. So they're siblings. So in 46 general, if you see a small number of age two fish in a 47 given year, then their siblings the next year are also 48 a small number. 49 50

Page 46 1 So we look at this relationship and we 2 draw the best line we can through it, just the best way 3 to fit the data. And then for 2017, we have that low 4 number of age two ocean fish, we can then predict what 5 the number of three ocean fish for 2018 would be. And 6 so that would represent that red dot. So you can see 7 it's low. And this usually represents about 62 percent 8 of the run. So the majority of the run looks like it 9 might be low in 2018. 10 11 We don't have a way to predict the two 12 ocean fish coming back in 2018, so this is a partial 13 picture, and you can see there's a lot of variability 14 around that line. So it is just an estimate. But to 15 answer Pat's question, 2018 might be a less than 16 average year at Buskin. 17 18 And I can answer question about that 19 now or afterwards. It's kind of a lot to absorb if 20 you're not a research biologist. 21 22 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Pat, did you 23 have a..... 24 25 MR. HOLMES: Yeah. Thanks, Mark, for 26 answering my annual question. I'm wondering, because I 27 remember back -- oh, shucks, I guess I don't remember 28 his name, but when they first started sampling at 29 sportfish there, it seemed like the predominant spec in 30 the 80s was two ocean, and that shifting to three, I 31 know that you have that sibling relationship, but have 32 you folks taken a look at the growth rates on scales to 33 see if they are growing slower and shifting more to 34 three ocean? I've heard from folks in the Alaska 35 fisheries societies talking about king salmon in 36 Southeast and Cook Inlet, and that the, I forget, four 37 or five really old ones that stay in the ocean a long 38 time, that that age group has almost disappeared. And 39 then the three oceans are coming back at smaller size, 40 because they're growing slower. Could all this be a 41 function of available feed, and a spin off on ocean 42 warming? Or is it a function of prior escapements and 43 we've had bad escapements? 44 45 MR. WITTEVEEN: Pat, through the Chair. 46 I haven't specifically looked at size at age of Buskin 47 fish versus 20 or 30 years ago. Recently we haven't 48 seen any changes. We look at size at age, at the 49 physical size of the fish at a given age rather than 50

Page 47 1 measure the scales, because the scales are just a 2 surrogate for the size of the fish. It seems like the 3 age composition is pretty variable in the last 20 4 years. I haven't seen any significant trends. It just 5 varies based on, you know, who knows what. Fresh water 6 conditions. The ocean conditions. You know, you might 7 get one year of ocean conditions that influence fish to 8 come back early or late or a lot of them die off. It's 9 difficult to really determine that. But I haven't seen 10 any significant size at age changes at Buskin. 11 12 MR. HOLMES: Yeah, I was just curious, 13 because, you know, you folks used to have your smelt 14 program that was funded through us, and that 15 disappeared with funding cuts. And, you know, I just 16 think in the last 40 years it used to be the Buskin 17 would be iced over and, you know, I would assume that 18 the out-migrating smolt then would be smaller and maybe 19 spend a little extra time in the lake. And now, you 20 know, things are really warm, so it would be really 21 swell to have that information now to see what's 22 happening to the out-migrants, and seeing that, and 23 then looking at, you know, the growth patterns of the 24 returning fish, because everything else in the ocean is 25 having radical changes in the last five years. And so 26 it's very worrisome to wonder about the Buskin. So I 27 appreciate you trying to give us your best guess every 28 year. 29 30 And hopefully you'll get your funding 31 restored for the weir, because this is the major 32 subsistence system in our whole region. And then, of 33 course, McLees Lake out at Unalaska, and Chignik in the 34 middle of the Peninsula. 35 36 But anyway thanks for your report. 37 38 MR. WITTEVEEN: You bit. I have a few 39 more slides here. 40 41 This represents the genetic results 42 from the previous cycle of funding, so 2010 through 43 2013, genetic stock of origin in the subsistence 44 fishery. You can see it's mostly Buskin Lake with some 45 other Kodiak and Lake Louise. And I just offer this 46 for comparison, because we just got the -- last week 47 got the more recent results from this cycle, and you 48 can see the results are similar, but the percentage of 49 Buskin fish is a little bit higher. Lake Louise is a 50

Page 48 1 little bit lower. As we saw in the timing graphs, Lake 2 Louise is late and most of the subsistence effort is 3 early on Buskin and even earlier this year. So that 4 might be some of the reason that you see such a small 5 amount of Lake Louise fish. They kind of escape after 6 the fishery is really over, and, of course, they're 7 smaller in volume as well. 8 9 And then finally, I'd just like to 10 touch again on our intern program. We have two high 11 school interns that we hire every year. Right now we 12 have 20 of the last 26 interns have come back to work 13 for the Department, and I know we have an additional 14 one applying for jobs right now, and another one 15 applying for one of the Sun'aq crayfish positions. So 16 hopefully she'll be competitive in that. It's a really 17 good program. Our area biologist is also a former 18 intern, and the former intern on the cover of your 19 packet as well. 20 21 This year we added for a couple weeks 22 an intern from the Sun'aq tribe, and she worked out 23 really well, and hopefully we can continue that. And 24 this summer, if we're funded again, we have talked with 25 KNA and hopefully they will be able to provide an 26 intern for us as well. 27 28 This is just a fun picture from this 29 summer. This represents our entire crew, and two of 30 the people are former interns, and two of them are 31 current interns, or were this summer. 32 33 So that concludes my report, and I'd be 34 happy to entertain any further questions. 35 36 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Any questions. 37 38 Rebecca. 39 40 MS. SKINNER: Can you go back to the 41 slide where you were showing the year, the three-year 42 fish. Maybe the previous one. 43 44 MR. WITTEVEEN: That guy? 45 46 MS. SKINNER: Actually if you back to 47 the one with blue dots. Okay. So my question is, when 48 I'm looking at this later, what does the age 1.3 and 49 2.3, what's the one and what's the three? 50

Page 49 1 MR. WITTEVEEN: Okay. That's called 2 European notation for salmon aging. So the first 3 number before the decimal is the number of years spent 4 in the fresh water. The second numbers is the years 5 spent in the salt water. And in fish math, one plus 6 three equals five, because there's a year in the gravel 7 and we don't have age information on that. But a 1.3 8 is a five-year-old fish. 9 10 MS. SKINNER: Thank you. 11 12 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Any other 13 questions or comments. Pat. 14 15 MR. HOLMES: Well, I'd like to once 16 again salute your intern program. I think that that's 17 wonderful, and I think that's a really good model for 18 all agencies. And I'd like to point out that at Lisa 19 Creamon (ph) Fox as well as Mark Witteveen are also 20 Kodiak kids. And so when you grow up in a place, you 21 get to understand people and how to talk and interact 22 with them. And I think be immensely responsible to the 23 resource as well as the people. 24 25 So I wanted to thank you folks. 26 27 MR. WITTEVEEN: Thank you. 28 29 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you. Thank 30 you, Karen. So I'm assuming we're not doing the 31 caribou right now. Or are we doing the caribou. We're 32 doing the caribou? 33 34 MR. WITTEVEEN: I'm not. 35 36 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. 37 38 (Laughter) 39 40 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. No, no, 41 go ahead. We'll go ahead, Nate. I'm sorry, guys. 42 43 MR. SVOBODA: No, that's okay. No 44 problem. So, hello, my name's Nate Svoboda. I'm the 45 area wildlife biologist for Fish and Game here in 46 Kodiak. This is John Crye, he's my partner in crime 47 over there. 48 49 And today we don't really have a whole 50

Page 50 1 lot for you. You guys may recall, and actually it's in 2 your packets, we provided a pretty comprehensive report 3 at the last meeting with all the harvest numbers. And 4 quite frankly we don't really have any updates. As you 5 know, many of the seasons just ended here at the end of 6 the year, so the numbers are still trickling in. We 7 don't have any updated harvest information for you. 8 9 But we did want to provide an 10 opportunity to answer any questions you guys might have 11 about anything. I know there was some interest in 12 ptarmigan populations. I can talk to that a little bit 13 if you want. Other than that, we're here basically to 14 answer any questions that you might have, but we really 15 don't have any updated harvest information. It usually 16 works better for us at the September meeting to provide 17 you those numbers. We can always provide you kind of 18 real time numbers, but those are probably not very 19 valuable, because by the time we get them to you, 20 they're already outdated. 21 22 With that being said, if you want, I 23 can talk a little bit about ptarmigan populations. I 24 know that was an interest of you. You're probably not 25 going to like our answer, but as with many of the small 26 game populations throughout Kodiak, Fish and Game 27 doesn't monitor small game populations. We do collect 28 some information, like on otter and fox, but that's 29 very sporadic, and we don't really have a system in 30 place to collect regular information on those species. 31 32 Ptarmigan is one of those species, so 33 we don't monitor ptarmigan in any way. We don't 34 monitor ptarmigan in any way. We don't even monitor 35 harvest. We don't do any sort of surveys or monitoring 36 efforts at all. The information that we do get from 37 time to time is from just hunters coming into our 38 office and talking about it, which with ptarmigan is 39 pretty rare. We don't get that very often. People 40 don't come in and talk to us about ptarmigan hunting. 41 It's not very popular on Kodiak. You know, it's not 42 one of the major things that people harvest, so we 43 don't get a lot of information about them. 44 45 However, ptarmigan life history is 46 pretty interesting. They kind of have what people 47 refer to as kind of a here today, gone tomorrow 48 population dynamic. Ptarmigan populations can swing 49 wildly in a very short amount of time. In a matter of 50

Page 51 1 two to three years they can go from being super 2 abundant to being virtually non-existent. And this can 3 be due to a variety of factors, and most likely is. 4 Some of these factors on Kodiak that impact populations 5 are fox numbers, eagle numbers. These are all 6 predators, natural predators of ptarmigan. Another 7 thing that affects ptarmigan on Kodiak is berry 8 abundance. Berries are an important food source for 9 ptarmigan. As you guys know, the last couple years 10 we've had kind of a -- or at least last year for sure, 11 we had a really poor berry crop, so that could be part 12 of the reason we're seeing low ptarmigan numbers. 13 14 You know, ptarmigan populations largely 15 depend on chick production. Ptarmigan usually have 6 16 to 10 eggs in May. They hatch in June. But 17 interestingly chick survival is really low. On an 18 annual basis there's about a 65 to 80 percent mortality 19 rate for chicks. So that can greatly impact the next 20 year's recruitment as you can imagine. 21 22 Also interesting I think is ptarmigan, 23 adult ptarmigan, older than one year of age, usually 24 have a 50 to 60 percent mortality rate, which is also 25 pretty high. 26 27 So all that to say that, you know, 28 these populations can swing wildly. You know, we might 29 have virtual non-existent population of ptarmigan this 30 year, and next year they might be super abundant. So 31 it's just kind of somewhat cyclic, and there's a lot of 32 speculation on what might cause those cycles, some of 33 which are what I mentioned with fox and other natural 34 predators as well as resource abundance, that being 35 berries. So that's kind of what we have for you with 36 regard to ptarmigan. As I mentioned, we don't get a 37 lot of information from the public, nor do we do any 38 sort of monitoring. 39 40 Any questions. 41 42 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Pat. 43 44 MR. HOLMES: Yes, I was wondering from 45 your -- you tag fox. Do you tag fox skins? 46 47 MR. SVOBODA: Do not. 48 49 MR. HOLMES: Oh, okay. Because I was 50

Page 52 1 just wondering if you had seen any increase in the fox 2 population, because that varies a bunch, and I know 3 here on the road system up on Pillar Mountain it just 4 seems to me in my hiking and berry picking that the 5 berry picking and voles and fox, they all kind of go in 6 some kind of a loopy cycle, and things are up and down. 7 8 MR. SVOBODA: Right. You know, the 9 best information we get on fox, Pat, is again through 10 trappers coming in and, you know, there's a couple 11 trappers on Kodiak that we know of that hit the fox 12 population pretty hard from year to year, and they 13 provide us pretty good information when they come in 14 and talk to us. You know, they don't always do that. 15 And so again that's one of those species where we 16 really don't monitor. You know, we try to get a good 17 idea on what's going on with the population by speaking 18 to hunters and trappers and whatnot, but that's all, 19 you know, kind of when it's convenient for them to come 20 and talk to us. 21 22 MR. HOLMES: Yeah. It's all part of 23 the art of managing critters and fish and that, but 24 have you gotten any kind of feedback from the trappers 25 as to, you know, their good estimates of what's 26 happening with fox? 27 28 MR. SVOBODA: John, have you talked to 29 many trappers this year? They're really starting to 30 just kind of bring their furs in over the last month or 31 so, so they're trickling in. 32 33 MR. CRYE: Fish and Game does a trapper 34 questionnaire every once in a while, so that's pretty 35 much how we kind of figure out what's going on. But as 36 Nathan said, you know, trappers will hit the fox harder 37 some years, and they won't even go trapping the next 38 year, so it's up and down. Prices have been very low 39 right now, and most of the people are tanning the skins 40 and then selling them for, you know, making hats or 41 whatever to people in Anchorage and Kenai. That's 42 where most of our furs are going. 43 44 MR. HOLMES: Thank you. 45 46 MR. SVOBODA: And, I'm sorry, just to 47 let you know what we handed out right there, that's not 48 Kodiak specific, but that is the small game summary for 49 the State for 2017. I apologize. I didn't get that to 50

Page 53 1 Karen earlier to have it in your packet. But, you 2 know, keep in mind that's kind of the 10,000-foot 3 level, looking at ptarmigan populations, and other 4 small game species. 5 6 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Rebecca. 7 8 MS. SKINNER: Thanks, Nate. As far as 9 the harvest numbers for the bigger game, is that 10 something you normally do in a written form somewhere? 11 12 MR. SVOBODA: Yeah. Well, we have 13 management reports, so that's all included in the 14 management reports, but management reports come out 15 every three years. 16 17 MS. SKINNER: Okay. Yeah, because we 18 didn't have a written report with all the harvest 19 numbers, so I was trying to write down frantically at 20 our last meeting when you were giving your verbal 21 report. And then we don't get the actual write-up of 22 that until part of our packet. So that's a number of 23 months. So my request was going to be when you give 24 the harvest numbers, if you could -- it's a lot handier 25 to have it in writing so it can be part of the packet, 26 or at least so we have a better record of it. 27 28 Thanks. 29 30 MR. SVOBODA: Oh, sure. Yep. Yep. 31 32 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Any other 33 questions. 34 35 (No comments) 36 37 MR. SVOBODA: Nothing? 38 39 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: You're done. 40 Thank you. 41 42 MR. SVOBODA: Oh, Coral has one. Too 43 late. Time's up. 44 45 (Laughter) 46 47 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Coral. 48 49 MS. CHERNOFF: I have a question about 50

Page 54 1 -- we're not talking about -- you didn't us any 2 information about bears this time, but in the fall you 3 gave us information about brown bear hunts and how many 4 are taken in the fall and spring. Do you have the 5 breakdown of that number? How many are guided and how 6 many are resident? And we do have subsistence numbers. 7 Do you have that number breakdown? 8 9 MR. SVOBODA: I can get that 10 information. I don't have it handy with me. One thing 11 that is in here, if you -- our colleagues at the 12 Refuge, Bill Pyle put together the Federal subsistence 13 numbers that are in there, but with regard to guided 14 versus non-guided, et cetera, yeah, we certainly have 15 that information. I don't have it handy right now, but 16 we could provide that. 17 18 MS. CHERNOFF: Second question. All 19 while growing up here, I never saw a bear until I was 20 23 years old and went to Larsen Bay. And they used to 21 talk about the bear numbers. I always heard there was 22 2500 bears on the island. And then in the last year or 23 so I think I've -- maybe you guys are part of it, 24 there's about 3500 bears on the island. So I was 25 wondering, is that something that I just made up 26 growing up, that number, or is that a number that 27 people really didn't hear, or do we know those numbers? 28 Has there been that much of an increase? Like do we 29 know numbers from the 80s? I'll date myself. But from 30 the 80s until now what those bear numbers are, and are 31 they increasing? We do tend to see a lot of them at 32 the rivers. 33 34 MR. SVOBODA: Sure. Yeah. Our general 35 feeling is the bear population is pretty stable to 36 slightly increasing at about 3500 animals. You know, 37 part of the thing with estimating bear population on 38 Kodiak is it's extremely difficult. And in the past, 39 say in the 80s, for instance, getting population 40 estimates was even harder then than it is now. I mean, 41 there's some modern techniques that help you kind of 42 further refine those numbers. And so as time moves on, 43 you know, we are able to get a better picture on what 44 the population is. 45 46 But Kodiak, as you know, is large, and 47 it's really -- the landscape is pretty dynamic. And so 48 to get a really robust population estimate is 49 admittedly very difficult. We usually have pretty wide 50

Page 55 1 confidence intervals on our estimates when we get 2 those. But, you know, our general feeling now is the 3 population is stable to maybe increasing in some areas, 4 and it probably is higher than it was back in the 80s 5 when you were younger. 6 7 MS. CHERNOFF: And last question. So 8 in other areas of the state, they have -- well, I'll 9 say in this area, in our unit, using bear and bear 10 parts in handicraft. I don't know if at some point it 11 was eliminated, or if it just has never really been 12 addressed. Do you know what the case is there? Was it 13 at some point proposed to be -- the handicraft was 14 limited from use or eliminated from use or was it just 15 never addressed up until now? 16 17 MR. SVOBODA: You know, that's a good 18 question. I'm not sure what the history of that is on 19 Kodiak, if it was allowed in the past and then a 20 regulation was past to prevent that. John, do you 21 know? 22 23 MR. CRYE: I believe it's never been -- 24 you know, it's been brought up, but we've never had, 25 you know, bear parts for Kodiak being able to be sold. 26 I think George might have some more background on that. 27 28 MR. SVOBODA: Can you comment on that, 29 George? 30 31 MR. PAPPAS: Thank you. George Pappas, 32 OSM. 33 34 Yes, that was part of the 10 different 35 meetings we had on customary trade of bear claws for 36 Federal subsistence, and trying to work something out 37 with the State, and that the Federal subsistence 38 regulations differ from that of the State. 39 40 But currently, if you look on Page 18 41 of the handy-dandy regulation summary for Federal 42 subsistence, it does lay out what you can to for 43 selling handicrafts. And there are some exceptions 44 there. 45 46 Yes, and if I remember correctly, the 47 handicraft claw issue, and this was about eight or nine 48 years ago, resulted in one of the first times we've had 49 a cross-reference between the State and Federal 50

Page 56 1 regulations about sealing the bears, and if you have 2 the original -- a copy of the sealing certificate from 3 whoever's sealing it, which is most likely Fish and 4 Game, then that would go with the bear claw as being 5 sold. But that's all I have for you right now for that 6 information on sales of handicraft. 7 8 So thank you, Madame Chair. 9 10 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Rebecca. 11 12 MS. SKINNER: I'm sorry, George, what 13 page were you on? 14 15 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: 18. 16 17 MS. SKINNER: 18. 18 19 MR. PAPPAS: Yeah, page 18 on the very 20 bottom right-hand side, sales of handicrafts. 21 22 MS. SKINNER: And I will look at that. 23 Was that mostly specific to bear claws? Did it..... 24 25 MR. PAPPAS: Yes. 26 27 MS. SKINNER: And so it doesn't address 28 intestines and guts and stuff. 29 30 MR. PAPPAS: No, that was the most 31 recent example of what I remember. 32 33 MS. SKINNER: Okay. Thank you. 34 35 MR. PAPPAS: And that was about, yeah, 36 bear claws and jewelry, and how do you -- how can you 37 get a fairly qualified -- a legally harvest of Federal 38 subsistence handicraft claw literally across the U.S. 39 border, and there's a way of doing it I think. 40 41 Madame Chair. 42 43 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Pat. 44 45 MR. HOLMES: Madame Chair. Coral. I 46 think we've chatted about that twice in the 20 years 47 I've been on, and we had a statewide proposal I know at 48 least 10 years ago from a lady in Southeast that was 49 focusing on black bears. And we had input from almost 50

Page 57 1 all the villages, and at that time the elders that we 2 talked to, and maybe you might remember some of them, 3 but I plead geezer-hood here. But the basic concept 4 that I gathered from that was tat they felt that it 5 would be disrespectful to the bears to be selling those 6 parts. And so our Council took a position that the 7 other regions could choose as they wished, ad I believe 8 our Council voted against doing that, and I think 9 Bristol Bay, which includes Chignik, they might have 10 gone that way. And I think one of the regions and the 11 Southeast RAC voted for it. And I don't remember in 12 the Interior which way they went. But our Council 13 based on the input that we had at those meetings from 14 Sun'aq and from the villages, we elected not to do 15 that. So I suppose if you wanted to bring it up, you 16 could submit it into the system and run it again. But 17 that's I think why it doesn't exist at this point from 18 my best recollection. 19 20 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. Any other 21 questions or discussions. 22 23 (No comments) 24 25 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. Hearing 26 none, thank you. 27 28 MR. SVOBODA: Thank you, Madame Chair. 29 30 MR. CRYE: Thank you. 31 32 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: It looks like we 33 have a half an hour, so we might as well go ahead and 34 do the special action, Unimak Island. 35 36 MS. DEATHERAGE: Thank you, Madame 37 Chair. This is Karen Deatherage, the Council 38 coordinator with the Office of Subsistence Management. 39 I'll speaking to this issue today. Due to travel cuts, 40 we are unable to provide biological Staff for this 41 meeting. 42 43 And so the special action request you 44 will find in your notebook under supplemental. It's 45 one page. For those of you who do not have a notebook, 46 it should be in the materials that I gave you in your 47 folder. So why don't we take a couple minutes to get 48 that out, because you'll need to refer to this, 49 particularly for the date and justification. There are 50

Page 58 1 also copies on the back table if anybody wants to pick 2 up a copy in the audience. The special action sheet is 3 on page. It has a yellow highlight on the date. 4 5 Thank you, Madame Chair. This is Karen 6 again. 7 8 If the Council recalls, the motion was 9 made and approved to submit a special action request to 10 the Board requesting a small hunt, a limited bull hunt 11 in Unit 10 on Unimak Island only. And the quotas were 12 going to be determined by the Izembek National Wildlife 13 Refuge manager. 14 15 And the justification given for this 16 hunt was that some of the Council members believe the 17 herd was growing and could sustain a hunt, but there 18 were some mixed views on that on the record. And also 19 that many of the Council members felt that community of 20 False Pass was -- in particular needed to have the 21 opportunity to hunt Unit 10 caribou, because of the 22 limitations that they have in their region. So the 23 Council discussed actually doing a customary and 24 traditional review to limit the hunt to False Pass, but 25 that didn't appear to be necessary based on the fact 26 that a lot of people wouldn't go to Unimak Island to 27 engage in a subsistence hunt; they have other 28 opportunities with the Southern Alaska Peninsula Herd 29 and with the Northern Herd. 30 31 I did submit this special action 32 request on the Council's behalf, and was asked many 33 questions about it. I guess the particular question 34 was at the time the Council did not indicate a season. 35 And in order for us at OSM to review and approve moving 36 forward a special action request for an emergency 37 opening or a temporary opening, we had to have a 38 season. 39 40 The first thing I did was through Della 41 I called False Pass and asked an individual there what 42 season might work well for the community, and they 43 provided that which is highlighted on my copy of August 44 15th through October 15th. But because we didn't have 45 that season the record approved by the Council, it 46 would need to be done here at this meeting, if you all 47 were in agreement. 48 49 The other issue was the Department of 50

Page 59 1 Fish and Game was hoping to conduct a survey in 2 November, which was after the Council's meeting to let 3 you know what the status of the herd was at that time, 4 whether it was continuing to grow or whether there were 5 any decreases. Unfortunately they were not able to get 6 out due to weather, and so we do not have any new data 7 to provide the Council on the status of the herd. 8 ADF&G may want to speak to that more later. 9 10 The other thing that I was told needed 11 to be strengthened was the purpose, the reason, the 12 justification for this being an emergency or temporary 13 action outside of the normal wildlife cycle, which as 14 you know just ended. And so there's some -- I've heard 15 from some Council members about -- and some people -- 16 members of the public about some additional things that 17 you could add to the special action request to help 18 strengthen the justification. 19 20 So with that, I'll go ahead and turn it 21 back over to the Chair. What I would recommend is 22 perhaps going ahead and following the back of the card 23 to allow the public to speak to this issue. I know 24 there's some public members that want to speak to this 25 issue, to see whether or not ADF&G would like to add 26 additional comments on this issue, and then take it for 27 discussion through the Council so that they can 28 determine what changes, if any, that they would like to 29 make to the request. 30 31 Thank you. 32 33 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you, 34 Karen. 35 36 So at this -- basically at this time, 37 we've done the introduction and the presentation. And 38 then we've got the next item is report on Board 39 consultations, tribes or ANCSA corporations; is that 40 correct? 41 42 MS. DEATHERAGE: Yes, Madame Chair. 43 And in the case of a wildlife special action, at this 44 time anyway, there are no special consultations until 45 this is actually accepted and moved forwards towards 46 the Board. 47 48 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: So at this 49 ;point we're just asking for recommendation or changes. 50

Page 60 1 Go, Rick and then we'll do..... 2 3 MR. KOSO: Yeah. I think I talked with 4 Tom on this a little bit, and I guess the concern was 5 that we have only 10 caribou that's going to be 6 available. I think that's just enough to satisfy maybe 7 False Pass. I see the other communities that are 8 involved in this, and it doesn't bother me, but I was 9 thinking about that, and the season opens August 15th 10 through October 15th. On the special deal it says 11 August 15th. 12 13 And I guess what would bother me on 14 this is that we do get other boats from other 15 communities, like Sand Point, King Cove, that actually 16 go through False Pass during the summer fishing. And 17 they would be able to -- if they have the permit to 18 access that area and hunt caribou. So I think that 19 could be a detriment to False Pass. And in my mind, 20 we're trying to get this for the local folks at False 21 Pass, not for the other areas. 22 23 So if we could change that to just make 24 it False Pass only residents, and make sure it's 25 residents only, because we do get guides that fly into 26 Unimak for bear hunting and other things during that 27 time, and we don't want them to be able to shoot these 28 caribou. So I would restrict it just to False Pass and 29 resident only. If that would help. 30 31 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. Karen, 32 you're taking the notes. 33 34 The only other thing I thought, too, on 35 this is August 1st is the opening on the State and the 36 Federal on the caribou on 9D, and this has August 15th. 37 38 MS. DEATHERAGE: Thank you, Madame 39 Chair. The reason why for a temporary or emergency 40 special action, it can only be a 60-day period from my 41 understanding, and I'm new at this, but that's my 42 understanding. 43 44 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. Sam and 45 then we do have public, or Tom I think wants a public 46 comment. We'll go ahead and do Sam and then Tom. 47 48 MR. ROHRER: Thanks, Della. Through 49 the Chair. What would our time frame be for submitting 50

Page 61 1 this as just a -- not as a special action, but just as 2 a regular proposal. When does the call come back open 3 for wildlife proposals? 4 5 MR. PAPPAS: Through the Chair, Council 6 Member Rohrer, it would be -- the wildlife cycle is 7 wrapping up now. The deliberations will be in the 8 spring, so it would be another 18 months before you put 9 something in. 10 11 And to add to what Karen said about a 12 special action, if you wanted something to last more 13 than 60 days, then it would be a temporary special 14 action, then you'd have to have a public hearing on it. 15 They would have to conduct hearings and there could be 16 a request for tribal consultation at that point in 17 time. Just a head's up if you want more than 60 days. 18 19 Thank you. Madame Chair. Mr. Rohrer. 20 21 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you. 22 23 Tom. 24 25 MR. SCHWANTES: Madame Chair. Members 26 of the Council. This caribou situation on Unimak is 27 something I've been concerned about for quite some 28 time. I was on the Council a number of years ago when 29 we chose to close this, because the numbers of the herd 30 were down to I believe around 100 animals. And so we 31 chose to close it. From the information we've received 32 over the past few years, that herd is growing. In 33 fact, information we had was that from 2015 to 2016 34 when we had our meeting in Cold Bay last year, the 35 animals had increased by 50 percent. And from the 36 information we were receiving from ADF&G and from the 37 Refuge, it appeared that those numbers were continuing 38 to improve, and that we were going to be given some 39 additional numbers. Unfortunately those surveys didn't 40 get done. 41 42 But certainly with that herd increasing 43 by 50 percent, there's no reason why we couldn't take a 44 few animals out of that herd and provide a subsistence 45 hunt for those people in Unimak Pass. I've spoken with 46 some of those people out there, and there are a number 47 of them who do have vessels who can get over to Unit 48 9D, but there's a number of them who do not have access 49 to that 9D herd. And so if we could provide a hunt for 50

Page 62 1 them, that's what we're trying to do here, is to make 2 those animals available to the members of that 3 community. So I would certainly urge you to take some 4 action and do whatever we need to do to get that season 5 opened, so that we can at least harvest some animals 6 for those -- the people of that community. 7 8 Thank you. 9 10 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you, Tom. 11 12 Pat. 13 14 MR. HOLMES: Yeah, Della. I agree with 15 the comments before, and particularly Rick. And, you 16 know, Rick being a King Cove kid, as well as Della. You 17 know, that we want to be able to provide something for 18 the folks at False Pass. And I don't know, you know, 19 if we can restrict it just to False Pass or if we need 20 to include the other communities that are listed there. 21 I think if we have to include those other communities, 22 just by the nature of the bureaucracy here, then let's 23 do it to provide them the opportunity, and then for 24 folks to remind their residents of Akutan, King Cove, 25 and Sand Point, that it would be good to, you know, not 26 harvest any if the caribou should get to that part of 27 the island. But right now I think most of them are up 28 on the northwest end. And for them to get to False 29 Pass at all would be amazing. 30 31 I would like to suggest that on the 32 wording of this document is that quotas may be 33 determined by the Izembek Wildlife Refuge manager, and 34 put in parenthesis, with consultation with ADF&G), 35 because ADF&G may be the ones that are actually doing 36 the survey and counting the critters. 37 38 And then I don't know, I think gabbing 39 with Tom, it might be valuable to have the permits 40 issued at the False Pass city office or tribe or 41 whatever, like they do for the Peninsula caribou out 42 of, you know, King Cove. And I think if that were 43 down, then that would be a way that it would perhaps 44 allow for any harvestable surplus to be taken, give a 45 better advantage to False Pass folks. 46 47 So that's kind of my cogentations, 48 Madame Chair. 49 50

Page 63 1 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you, Pat. 2 3 Rebecca. 4 5 MS. SKINNER: Yes, I have a couple 6 questions. One is earlier there was a Mark on the 7 phone, was he trying to talk about the Unimak caribou, 8 or did I misunderstand. And is there a Mark still on 9 the phone that might want to talk about Unimak caribou. 10 11 MR. BUTLER: I believe Mark's still on 12 the phone. This is Lem Butler with Fish and Game. And 13 I think Mark is indicating that I had a few comments 14 for you when you're ready. 15 16 MS. SKINNER: Okay. I guess would 17 those be agency comments, would it be appropriate to 18 take those now or should I go ahead with the rest of my 19 questions. 20 21 MR. BUTLER: It would be agency 22 comments, yes. 23 24 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Go ahead with 25 your questions then. 26 27 MS. SKINNER: Okay. So when Karen did 28 the intro, I got that we needed to basically validate 29 or get two things -- at least two things on the record. 30 I wanted to confirm what those are. So one would be 31 the season dates, so you need us to take action on the 32 season dates; and the second was providing more 33 justification for taking this matter basically out of 34 order, so why is this an emergency. Was there -- were 35 there any other items that you needed us to get on the 36 record. 37 38 MS. DEATHERAGE: Thank you. Through 39 the Chair. No, those are the two things, particularly 40 the season. 41 42 I'd like to also make a correction in 43 the record regarding temporary versus emergency special 44 actions. We have both of those. 45 46 An emergency special action is where 47 there are no requirements for a hearing in the 48 communities, and no requirements for consultation. 49 Those need a 60-day or less hunting season for whatever 50

Page 64 1 is being proposed. 2 3 For a temporary special action, you can 4 have a longer season, but the Office of Subsistence 5 Management would need to hold a public hearing likely 6 in the community most affected, and also reach out for 7 tribal consultation. 8 9 Thank you. 10 11 MS. SKINNER: So then just to follow 12 up, I cannot remember why we felt like this needed to 13 be taken out of order and why it would be an emergency, 14 so I can't offer any comments in that regard. But I 15 think hopefully other Council members will have 16 comments on that, because it does sound like we need to 17 get those on the record. 18 19 Thank you. 20 21 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: If I recall, 22 when we did this on Unit 9D in the past, we started 23 through with the special action, because, number 1, I 24 think part of it was the herd wasn't up to the limits 25 that people were comfortable with allowing for a take. 26 And this started that process. And I think the next 27 step to that on 9D was to go through the public 28 hearing. The first time it was a special action. I 29 think they were only allowed like five per community. 30 Then we went through the part where we did the public, 31 because I recall testifying in Anchorage at the public 32 hearing. And then as the population slowly rebounded 33 is where we got into the wildlife cycle is what I 34 recall. 35 36 Pat I think. 37 38 MR. HOLMES: Sorry, I was answering a 39 question for the..... 40 41 REPORTER: Mic, please. 42 43 MR. HOLMES: Pardon me, Madame Chair. 44 I was answering a question. I was being crude to Mike 45 Miller, Tlingit from Sitka, had sent me a note wanting 46 to know when he could call, I'm sorry, I missed your 47 question. I apologize. 48 49 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: It was the 50

Page 65 1 process. I think the question was -- sorry. The 2 question was why we did the process we did. Okay. 3 I'll go ahead and let Sam talk. 4 5 MR. HOLMES: Well, I think the basic 6 thought was is that it looked like there had been some 7 significant improvement, and particularly a major 8 increase in the bull to cow ratio, and that the 9 survival was picking up. And so I think from my 10 recollections of listening, teleconferencing at that 11 meeting is -- would be the potential, if there were 12 some slight surplus, wold be to allow the folks to at 13 least get a few caribou for their traditional needs, 14 because they haven't had any in many, many years. And, 15 you know, the positive growth, it looks like that could 16 happen, and I think having the phrase in there, up to 17 10 permits, usually, you know, when you issue permits, 18 maybe half of them are actually taken. So I think that 19 this at least gives the folks in False Pass a chance to 20 have some traditional food that they have not had in 21 many, many year. And I think it's really important to 22 attempt to at least show some empathy for their 23 situation, because they really -- I mean, the last time 24 I was out there, gosh, hamburger was nine bucks a 25 pound, and that was years ago. And so, you know, they 26 really don't have access to the caribou that they used 27 to be able to take in some pretty great numbers. I can 28 recall at one point before that herd move up to the 29 Peninsula that there was 3,000 caribou on the island, 30 and 2,000 of them packed up and went up to Della's neck 31 of the woods. And so people could get caribou whenever 32 they wanted, and they just aren't there. 33 34 So I think it's important to give it a 35 shot now, and at least it sets the stage for that 36 potential to happen. And then it gets us in the groove 37 for 18 months from now, as George pointed out to take a 38 little firmer action. 39 40 Thank you, Madame Chair. 41 42 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. Thank 43 you, Pat. Sam and then Tom I think you -- you don't? 44 You're good? Okay. Sam. 45 46 MR. ROHRER: Thank you. Through the 47 Chair. I think in answer to Ms. Skinner's question 48 about why it's important to do -- or the reasoning for 49 doing a temporary or emergency special action request, 50

Page 66 1 and correct me if I'm wrong, but this request is -- if 2 the Board grants this, this is only for one year. This 3 is just one season and then it goes away, and then for 4 2000 and -- so this would be for season of 2018. If we 5 wanted to do it again in '19, we'd have to re-ask. So 6 this is just a one year deal. It expires. 7 8 But the reason for asking for it now is 9 because otherwise we have to wait 18 months for the 10 next cycle, and that's the beginning of the cycle, 11 correct, so we would ask in 18 months, but then we'd 12 still be time further down until they actually made 13 that decision. 14 15 The population, I think we all agree, 16 and as I recall the State agreed, and Izembek agreed, 17 can clearly handle a small harvest. 18 19 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: The State 20 didn't. 21 22 MR. ROHRER: No, I remember the -- for 23 a small -- well, I'll have to look back at the minutes. 24 I thought they were okay with a small harvest, but 25 maybe I'm remembering that wrong. But regardless, we 26 all thought that the population could sustain a small 27 harvest, and so there was no reason to wait 18 months 28 to ask for it. So that's why we put in the special 29 action request. 30 31 Thanks. 32 33 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you, Sam. 34 35 Rebecca. 36 37 MS. SKINNER: Yeah. I guess what I'm 38 trying to do is get people to articulate reasons why 39 this should be taken out of cycle, and I get the sense 40 that, well, we don't want to wait 18 months may not 41 provide enough justification. So I think need to 42 access a resource for food and the fact that food is 43 expensive, food is limited in these economic times. I 44 mean, that's at least starting to go the direction I 45 think maybe Karen was trying to get us to go. So I'm 46 not asking about the historical, you know, process of 47 how we ended up where we are. What I think we need we 48 need to articulate would be maybe two or three bullets 49 that would justify why should this be taken out of 50

Page 67 1 cycle, because we are asking for something different 2 than how things are normally handled. And so I think 3 it's important to articulate some reasons to do that. 4 5 I just don't remember discussing those 6 reasons at our last meeting. So I can't add anything, 7 because I don't remember discussing that. 8 9 Thank you. 10 11 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: I think just 12 because, number 1, it's closer for people in False Pass 13 to harvest Unimak caribou, and I will add the word 14 legally. And they don't -- it costs a lot of money and 15 weatherwise to try to go to basically Cold Bay or 9D to 16 hunt. This is closer to home for them. 17 18 People from our communities don't 19 necessarily go to False Pass and hunt. And in the 20 past, if there was any take of caribou, it was done 21 when the guys were on the fishing grounds. But in this 22 case, you have to have a subsistence permit as Pat 23 said, and in our communities, it's usually done at the 24 tribal office, or in the case of King Cove now, it's 25 being down at the King Cove corporation office that I 26 work in. 27 28 But I think it allows for a harvest I 29 think. And especially for people of False Pass. It's 30 a small community. And, you know, just chances are 31 you're not going to harvest 10 caribou, it's most 32 likely in my mind probably six. They're not easy to 33 get to. 34 35 Coral. 36 37 MS. CHERNOFF: So I would like to just 38 suggest, because I don't know the area and many people 39 may not, like what do we mean by closer? Like if we 40 can identify, I think that would be helpful, because I 41 know like going closer -- you know, like going to 42 Chiniak, which is 50 miles away, is quite a distance to 43 go, or like, you know, in the case of our birds, going 44 500 feet off shore requires having a boat, requires 45 having, you know, lots of things. So for those who may 46 not understand the area, maybe if we could put a 47 definition on closer and what that means, I think that 48 would be really helpful also. 49 50

Page 68 1 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Yeah. I think 2 what is it, Rick, a five-hour boat ride from False Pass 3 to Cold Bay? 4 5 MR. KOSO: Yeah. You're looking 6 between King Cove and Cold Bay, I think you're around 7 46 miles. To Cold Bay it's probably a little farther, 8 probably an extra 10 miles, so you're between 50, 60 9 miles. But it's the logistics and the weather you've 10 got to deal with is probably more hampering than the 11 distance itself. 12 13 You know, on this deal with the 10 14 caribou, you know, I don't know if we should. I think 15 we should go ahead and make a proposal on it, but I'd 16 like to eliminate the Akutan, King Cove, and Sand Point 17 off this and just make it strictly False Pass. 18 19 You know, I think it's like I said, 20 we're up around 300 caribou now if I'm not mistaken on 21 the island, maybe a little bit more. And if I'm not 22 mistaken, I was talking with a couple folks and that 23 the State -- you said at 500 caribou then they can open 24 it, right? And then the Feds, when it hit 700, then 25 they could make a regular opening. Am I not right or 26 wrong on that? So on something like that, so we're not 27 very far away from maybe having the State initiate 28 something to that sort, but in the meantime, I'd like 29 to see this go through so they can have a hunt this 30 year. 31 32 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Karen. 33 34 MS. DEATHERAGE: Thank you, Madame 35 Chair. 36 37 Mr. Burch, are you on the phone? 38 39 MR. BURCH: Yes, this is Mark. I 40 believe I indicated Lem Butler is prepared to speak to 41 this from the Department of Fish and Game. 42 43 MS. DEATHERAGE: Okay. Thank you. 44 45 I'll just make one comment then on the 46 700 animals for the Feds to open the hunt. We have no 47 population objective to open a hunt on the island for 48 the Federally-qualified users. But the State, some of 49 you may recall when Chris Peterson testified last time 50

Page 69 1 on the State's position, they stated they would open 2 the hunt at 500 animals minimum. 3 4 Thank you. 5 6 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Tom. 7 8 MR. SCHWANTES: Yeah. Just to add a 9 couple comments. The State also said that they would 10 be neutral in our request. And the Refuge said they 11 would support our request. 12 13 I think one of the things you can add 14 in there for justification is, and this is some of the 15 information I got last fall when I spoke to some of the 16 folks in False Pass, is there are a number of families 17 there who do not have transportation, who cannot get 18 over to hunt Unimak Island, and the only source of wild 19 meat they have is right there on Unimak. So that might 20 be part of the justification as well. 21 22 Thank you. 23 24 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you. 25 26 MR. PAPPAS: Madame Chair. Thank you. 27 George Pappas, OSM. 28 29 So we're building a great record here. 30 I hear three different items that need to be addressed 31 here in the special action. One is the season dates, 32 and that covers if it's going to be a special action or 33 a temporary special action. Do you want a season 34 longer than 60 days or less than 60 days. 35 36 Number 2, you're working on the 37 justification of why you're taking it out of order. 38 Maybe there's population changes since three years ago 39 when this was being, you know, discussed and brought 40 forward. 41 42 And the third thing I hear very clearly 43 from multiple Council members here is looking to limit 44 the hunt to Federally-qualified users only of False 45 Pass. So that equals a request from this Regional 46 Advisory Council to put in a -- is putting a request to 47 OSM to conduct an analysis on that. An .804 analysis 48 is the short-hand term for it. When there's plenty of 49 animals, everybody can hunt. When it's not enough for 50

Page 70 1 everybody, Federal subsistence only can hunt. And when 2 it's not enough for Federal subsistence only, then you 3 have to select amongst the communities. Now, you're 4 building a record towards that, and we've done this -- 5 actually I think we have multiple going on right now, 6 doing analysis for the Kuskokwim, example, limiting it 7 to the members of the watershed and not other folks 8 that have C&T. So you've been very clear, and we can 9 build from this record. 10 11 Thank you, Madame Chair. 12 13 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you. 14 15 Rick, did you have a comment. 16 17 MR. KOSO: No, I guess I would like to 18 hear Mark's comments on this. He may, you know, answer 19 a lot of questions to us, so if we could get him to do 20 his comments now. That would be nice. 21 22 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Lem. 23 24 MR. KOSO: Oh, Lem. Okay. Whoever he 25 is on the phone for us. 26 27 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Lem. Are you on 28 the phone, Lem? 29 30 MR. BUTLER: Yep. This is Lem Butler. 31 I'm sitting in for Dave Crowley and Chris Peterson who 32 are at the Board of Game currently. 33 34 The State is not in favor of this 35 special action request at this time. If you look at 36 the population history, in 2014 we still had a very low 37 bull to cow ratio, a lot calf to cow ratio. And a 38 small population size of 230 animals. We only have one 39 data point for population size since then. It came in 40 2015, and it was 334 animals, so it was above 300 as 41 was indicated earlier. But that's one data point, and 42 we only have one data point for composition. As was 43 noted, we tried to get out this year, but weather 44 prevented us from looking at the population. We did 45 see an increase in the calf to cow ratio and bull to 46 cow ration, 33 bulls per 100 cows, 40 calves per 100 47 cows, which are both good. 48 49 It is looking better for this 50

Page 71 1 population certainly, but what really concerns is that 2 from 2004 to, oh, 2014, we had very limited calf 3 recruitment, which often results in a skewed age 4 structure for a population. So we expect this 5 population to stumble as it grows. You're going to see 6 some older animals that are nearing the end of their 7 natural life span who are likely to die. So we're not 8 expecting or projecting a rapid recovery here. 9 10 And again given that we only have one 11 data point, we would really strongly recommend letting 12 us get out there and get another data point to confirm 13 that the bull to cow ratio is up, hopefully get it up 14 above the management objective of 35 bulls per 100 cow, 15 and we'd like to see at least one more good calf crop. 16 Again, before then we were looking at 22 was the best 17 calf ratio going back to 2000. So we only really have 18 this one data point where we see a good influx of 19 calves. 20 21 So for those reasons, we'd encourage 22 you to hold off on the special action request and 23 follow the normal process with proposals next year. 24 25 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Pat. 26 27 MR. HOLMES: Yeah. Lem, I can 28 understand your point there. How about because if you 29 get out and have -- if there's a spring count for 30 calves and things are up and you've got a good count 31 then, and that answers your question on data points, 32 and perhaps changing the second sentence in our request 33 to say the actual opening and quotas may be determined 34 by the Refuge manager with consultation with Fish and 35 Game. Because what we're trying to do is to get ahead 36 of the Federal bureaucracy that will put us almost two 37 seasons away; whereas if there's some potential, enough 38 improvement to justify them taking a few critters, even 39 if it's only five, would -- okay. So that's my 40 blather. Could we change that second sentence to say 41 the actual opening and harvest limit will be determined 42 by Fish and Wildlife Service and ADF&G based on the 43 health and status of the Unimak Caribou Herd, because 44 then that would get things ahead of the schedule if the 45 population has continued to improve. And if it hasn't, 46 well, then it stays there. 47 48 But it gives us a chance to bet this in 49 the mill and get the concern raised with the Federal 50

Page 72 1 Board so that we an try to provide for something like 2 that, you know. It's just like Juneau to Anchorage, 3 you got rid of all the beef in town and said people 4 couldn't have it. But there might be a chance of 5 getting in some new trucks up the highway, and provide 6 for that potential rather than have to wait an extra 7 year. 8 9 But I guess that's my perspective said. 10 11 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. 12 13 Rebecca and then Karen. 14 15 MS. SKINNER: So I have a process 16 question. When this proposal goes forward, this is my 17 question, if Fish and Game given an opportunity to 18 comment and give input? So they will go on the record 19 with their disagreement with going forward with this or 20 no? 21 22 MR. PAPPAS: Through the Chair. Council 23 Member Skinner. Depending on timing. Depending on 24 timing. If you're looking at a temporary special 25 action, over 60 days, with a public hearing, there's 26 always -- the State normally does contribute to that 27 process. If it's short-ordered emergency -- I mean, a 28 real emergency, within a week, sometimes not everybody 29 can provide their information. 30 31 But the public record is here, if 32 you're going to put this forward. The State is online. 33 Lem could provide information or State position to Mark 34 Burch to the Federal program. 35 36 MS. SKINNER: So my follow-up comment 37 then is that I just want to note that I did hear the 38 concerns that were just raised by the State, and I am 39 considering those as I sit here. 40 41 Thanks. 42 43 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Karen. 44 45 MS. DEATHERAGE: Thank you, Madame 46 Chair. The issue that I was originally told when I 47 first put this proposal forward was that in fact the 48 Refuge manager cannot shut the seasons for a temporary 49 or emergency action, because it's not a needed 50

Page 73 1 temporary or emergency action if they have to set the 2 seasons. This is what I was informed, and this is why 3 we came to you to confirm there was going to be a 4 season. 5 6 What I was also told, if the Council, 7 for example, would like to get more data from the 8 State, let's say in April for the calf to cow ratio, 9 what can happen is an emergency special action. And 10 this can actually be done at the fall meeting and open 11 up a hunt from October 1st through October 30th, or 12 October 1st through November 30th. That is also a 13 possibility if the Council felt that it wanted to hear 14 and get another data set from the State. It's just an 15 opportunity. But to put in the actual proposal that 16 you're going to leave the season open to the Refuge 17 manager, I was told that that would not qualify this as 18 an emergency or temporary special action. 19 20 Thank you. 21 22 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you, 23 Karen. 24 25 I have a question, and I know in all 26 reality this isn't the way we do things; however, that 27 doesn't stop us. 28 29 (Laughter) 30 31 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: So the Refuge 32 manager also has the ability in consultation and 33 cooperation with the State and local communities and/or 34 tribes, to close something if they felt there was a 35 need. If we went through, made these changes, ask to 36 have this done, and then this spring the State looks, 37 they get numbers, are able to get numbers, then you can 38 say, well, hey, we need to come back and take a look at 39 this, guys, and this is probably not a really good 40 idea. 41 42 So my recommendation is go ahead, make 43 the changes, pass it. Your Refuge manager has that 44 authority in the event it need to be done. And I would 45 also would not change the date, and the reason I 46 wouldn't change the dates, those winter months, nobody 47 wants to be out hunting caribou in that terrain. 48 49 MR. KOSO: Yeah, I wouldn't change the 50

Page 74 1 dates to October either. That's the rutting season. 2 They ain't no good to eat. So it will be just a waste 3 of time to even have a season during October. 4 5 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Rebecca. 6 7 MS. SKINNER: So drawing from my 8 experience with the court system, when there's an 9 emergency action going through the court, it means that 10 everybody has to drop everything they're doing and take 11 care of the emergency action. So it is disruptive to 12 the general flow of work. 13 14 Given Karen's comments that we could 15 potentially wait for data that might be collected in 16 April, I guess I'm not sure I heard that data would be 17 collected in April, but that we might have more 18 information in April, and that we could potentially 19 take action on this at our fall meeting, although I'm 20 also cognizant that if our fall meeting is in mid 21 September, that doesn't leave a lot of time for a fall 22 season, but I am mindful that taking things out of 23 order, and having things treated as an emergency does 24 -- it does take attention and resources away from the 25 normal flow of work. So I'm also considering that. 26 27 And also on top of that that we don't 28 know what the data is. So I heard the suggestion that 29 let's go ahead and pass this, pass it as an emergency 30 action and get it through the system, and then the 31 Refuge manager can just call off the hunt. To me, I 32 see that potentially using a lot of time and resources 33 really for no reason. 34 35 So those are considerations going 36 through my head right now. 37 38 Thanks. 39 40 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you, 41 Rebecca. And I just want to be mindful of the people 42 we serve, too, that, you know, it's their time and 43 resource, too. The time to do it is in that span, that 44 August 15th to October 15th. It's tough to go get 45 these caribou, and it's costly for them to do it. 46 47 MR. PAPPAS: Through the Chair. 48 Council Member Skinner, I wouldn't be concerned about 49 the Staff investment on OSM's side. We have multiple 50

Page 75 1 discipline teams, and that's what we do for our special 2 actions. And they come down, they come down hard in 3 some huge ones. And we have some big ones going on. 4 But that's what we do. So I wouldn't be concerned 5 about that. And I assume I'll probably be moved to a 6 cubicle for saying that. 7 8 Thank you, Madame Chair. 9 10 (Laughter) 11 12 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. Where 13 we're at now, everyone, is it's 12:15. 14 15 MR. KOSO: Go have lunch. 16 17 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Do we want to go 18 have lunch and come back and take appropriate action, 19 or do you want to take it now. 20 21 MS. DEATHERAGE: Madame Chair. This 22 does not need a further motion. I think it was a 23 discussion on the record to capture more information, 24 which is what I did before. And so at least my 25 understanding is we don't need a motion on the record. 26 To just confirm what I've put in here for the season, 27 add additional information regarding the justification 28 and the need, and then also to put in there to give 29 False Pass a priority, so that will stimulate an .804 30 analysis. And then finally to authorize the Izembek 31 National Wildlife Refuge manager to close the season if 32 needed based on any new data. 33 34 I think the thing to clarify though is 35 do you want to make this an emergency special action or 36 a temporary special action. The temporary special 37 action, you can make the season longer, so if you 38 wanted to coincide with the August 1st, you could that, 39 but we would have to have hearings, or at least one 40 hearing. The emergency, you do not need to have a 41 hearing, but it's only allowed for 60 days. 42 43 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: My 44 recommendation would be to go with the emergency, and 45 then next year if we need to go into the special 46 action, which is going to lead us into the wildlife 47 cycle. 48 49 Pat. 50

Page 76 1 MR. HOLMES: A matter of semantics. At 2 least Fish and Game, they already have seasons 3 established. So if you establish a season, the Refuge 4 manager doesn't have to make -- I mean, if we can get 5 the season set, regardless of whether it's open or 6 closed, usually your manager is the one that decides, 7 yes, I'm opening or not. It's like Igvak or any 8 fishing or any season. You know on Kodiak the deer 9 season starts August 1st. But there's always that 10 ability for the manager, and I'm sure it's the same in 11 the Federal government, correct me, George, that if 12 you've got an established season, the opening is a 13 different kind of action. It's a different -- it means 14 something different. And so you set a season, and then 15 your manager says, okay, I just got a call from Lem 16 Butler and his crew conned a helicopter trip over to 17 Unimak Island and the population is up enough, and the 18 other, cow to calf, et cetera, is looking good, and he 19 opens the season on this time that we put in there. 20 And so I think that you should -- semantically setting 21 a season is entirely different than opening and closing 22 a hunt, or opening and closing a fishery. So that's a 23 little grammar thing or it's really also beyond that in 24 its action. 25 26 But I do think that whatever we send in 27 should have something in there with consultation with 28 Fish and Game, because then that will have Lem and his 29 crew will be able to have their input on it. And to me 30 in my mind opening and closing is a separate function. 31 So if you can define that versus season, I think that 32 could solve where we want to go. 33 34 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Are we good? 35 36 MR. PAPPAS: Madame Chair. I believe 37 we still have Mark Burch and Lem Butler on line, if 38 they have any more information to contribute to this, 39 unless we're going to continue the discussion after 40 lunch. I just want to see. 41 42 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: I think we're 43 good. 44 45 MR. PAPPAS: We're good? Thank you, 46 Madame Chair. 47 48 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: I think at this 49 point, if everybody agrees, we're good, and we just -- 50

Page 77 1 Karen has taken all the notes, so we'll see the draft. 2 3 Do you want to break for lunch until 4 1:30? Will that work for everybody, since we're a 5 little late here? Okay. All right. We will be back 6 at 1:30. 7 8 Thank you, everyone. 9 10 (Off record) 11 12 (On record) 13 14 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. I think 15 we're just missing one Council member, but he's on his 16 way back. We'll go ahead and call the meeting back to 17 order. The time is 1:40. 18 19 And before we move on to the agenda, I 20 had a request to consider the action that we 21 recommended on the proposal for -- the special action 22 request on the Unimak caribou, to put that in motion 23 form. Do we have a Council member that would like to 24 do so. 25 26 MR. HOLMES: Madame Chair, I'd like to 27 make a motion that we put down -- that is, in a motion 28 to show the intent of our Council on trying to provide 29 food for folks at False Pass. And that in that, that 30 the Fish and Wildlife Service with consultation with 31 the State would choose to reopen when the data 32 indicates that it's possible. 33 34 Is that reasonable, folks. 35 36 MS. SKINNER: Was that his motion. 37 38 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Rebecca, did you 39 have a comments. Or I guess we need a second before 40 there's discussion. 41 42 MR. KOSO: Second. 43 44 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Second by Rick. 45 46 Discussion. 47 48 MS. SKINNER: I'm sorry, Pat, can you 49 repeat the motion. 50

Page 78 1 MR. HOLMES: (Indiscernible -- mic off) 2 3 MR. PAPPAS: Mic. 4 5 MS. DEATHERAGE: Pat, mic, please. 6 7 MR. HOLMES: Oh. Good, you missed all 8 my blathering. I would like to make a motion that we 9 adopt the discussions that we've had previously in 10 relation to reopening -- providing for the potential to 11 reopen for a subsistence caribou hunt for the folks at 12 False Pass, and that that would be with the two 13 agencies consulting each other for the reopening when 14 the data would allow to have a small harvest. That's 15 not exactly the same, but that's close by intent. 16 17 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Karen, do you 18 want to read the motion, because the other thing I -- 19 was the highlighted items that we wanted to add in 20 there. 21 22 MS. DEATHERAGE: Thank you, Madame 23 Chair. The motion to adopt the following changes for 24 the Unimak Island emergency special action request, 25 would be food for locals, it's difficult travel without 26 a boat and it's very expensive. Two, would add to the 27 Refuge manager with consultation with ADF&G. Three 28 would give the Refuge manager the authority to close 29 the season if needed. Four, to include a season of 30 August 15th through October 15th. And five would be to 31 limit the hunt to residents of False Pass only. 32 33 Thank you. 34 35 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: And, Karen, if I 36 may, were we adding quotas up to 10 bulls. 37 38 MS. DEATHERAGE: Thank you, Madame 39 Chair. That is already in the current special request. 40 41 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. Any other 42 discussion. 43 44 Rebecca. 45 46 MS. SKINNER: And then to clarify that 47 we agreed this would go forward as an emergency special 48 action request and not as a temporary special action 49 request. And I don't know if it's appropriate to add 50

Page 79 1 that to the motion, just to be clear in our intent. 2 3 MS. DEATHERAGE: That's already in. 4 5 MS. SKINNER: Okay. You got it, 6 thanks. 7 8 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Pat, did you 9 have any comments. 10 11 MR. HOLMES: My colleague corrected me. 12 13 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you. All 14 right. All in favor signify by saying aye. 15 16 IN UNISON: Aye. 17 18 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Opposed same 19 sign. 20 21 (No negative votes) 22 23 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Motion carried. 24 Thank you. 25 26 MR. HOLMES: Oh, did we have -- I 27 remember in our discussion, Madame Chair, we had talked 28 about having the permits issued at False Pass. Did 29 that make it in our discussion. 30 31 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: I think what 32 we've done, Pat, is the community with consultation or 33 meeting -- agreement with Izembek Refuge, they'll 34 decide who does the permits. 35 36 MR. HOLMES: Okay. And then we could 37 recommend that they..... 38 39 REPORTER: Pat, mic, please. 40 41 MR. HOLMES: Oh, I say I was just 42 trying to go along with Della, and to clarify that it 43 would be nice, if possible, for the Refuge to delegate 44 the issuing of permits at False Pass, if that could be 45 achieved would be desirable. 46 47 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. Thank 48 you. The next item on the agenda is Board of Game 49 proposal update. 50

Page 80 1 Karen. 2 3 MS. DEATHERAGE: Thank you, Madame 4 Chair. My name is Karen Deatherage. I am the 5 Subsistence Council coordinator for the Office of 6 Subsistence Management. 7 8 If the Council recalls, back at the 9 last meeting, you requested that I draft and send a 10 letter to the Board of Game regarding several Board of 11 Game proposals. The statewide proposals were reviewed 12 last fall and passed, and I wanted to give you an 13 update on that. I did send in the comments on behalf 14 of the Council. They are on Page 58 of your meeting 15 book. 16 17 For Proposal Number 43. Well, the 18 Council just commented on Proposal Number 43, I thought 19 I would go ahead and give you the results of the four 20 proposals that were discussed at our meeting in Cold 21 Bay. And the results are the recommendations from the 22 Board of Game. 23 24 For Proposal No. 4, it was carried with 25 an amendment. The proposal requested to change the 26 definition of edible meat for large game birds, and it 27 listed a whole bunch of parts of the birds that the 28 hunter was going to be required to carry out. The 29 Board amended that proposal to remove heart and 30 gizzards from the definition of edible meat, and 31 clarify the definition to include meat of the wings, 32 excluding the metacarpus, the tip section of the wing. 33 So that was the action taken by the Board. 34 35 For Proposal No. 53, which was a 36 complex proposal requesting to reevaluate the customary 37 and traditional use finding for migratory birds 38 statewide, the Board carried that proposal. So it 39 passed the Board of Game. It doesn't mean that there's 40 funding available to determine those C&T findings, but, 41 you know, the Board recognized the need. 42 43 For Proposal No. 41, was to exempt 44 rural subsistence hunters from the requirements for 45 obtaining a waterfowl conservation tag. The Council 46 took no action on that proposal with respect to 47 comments, but that proposal failed for a vote of two to 48 five. 49 50

Page 81 1 And then Proposal No. 43, which the 2 Council did submit comments for, which would have 3 allowed the taking of emperor geese by proxy hunting. 4 If you recall, the Council was really concerned about 5 elders and the opportunity for elders to taste emperor 6 goose meat again. And that proposal passed the Board 7 of Game with a vote of five to two. 8 9 Thank you. 10 11 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you, 12 Karen. Is there any questions or discussion. 13 14 (No comments) 15 16 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Hearing none, we 17 will move on. Under new business, call for Federal 18 fisheries proposal. 19 20 MR. PAPPAS: Good afternoon. George 21 Pappas, OSM. And I'm on deck here for the next several 22 items 23 24 So currently the Federal Subsistence 25 Board is accepting proposals through March 21st. I was 26 informed of this a couple of days ago. I'm waiting for 27 the news release to go out, but if you do have a 28 Federal subsistence fisheries proposal, OSM is 29 accepting those at the time. And that's for the 2019 30 to 2021 regulatory cycle. And there should be an 31 announcement in our book here. So the Board will 32 consider proposals to change the Federal fishing 33 seasons, harvest limits, methods of hardest, and 34 customary/traditional use determinations. The Board 35 will also accept proposals for individual 36 customary/traditional determinations from residents of 37 national parks and national monuments resident zone 38 communities for those who already hold a Section 13.440 39 subsistence use permit. 40 41 There are a number of ways you can 42 submit the proposals. If you have a fisheries proposal 43 you'd like to submit as a Council or an individual, we 44 can discuss that right now, and then OSM Staff can 45 assist with the process of synthesizing those and 46 making sure they're submitted correctly. You can also 47 -- yeah, the proposals would go through Karen, your 48 Council coordinator, and OSM will work on those. 49 50

Page 82 1 You can turn them in by hand. You can 2 mail them. And we can assist you crafting. There's 3 also an online process for submitting proposals, and 4 that would be described in our book here. There should 5 be a flier in our book. I'll ask Karen about that a 6 little bit layer. 7 8 And the proposals go in, you'll hear -- 9 they'll be, you know vetted say a little bit here in 10 the springtime, and then OSM will start the analysis 11 process. And you'll have draft analyses in front of 12 you at the September meeting about any fisheries 13 proposals you have. Now, I know you have a large 14 region, 1,000 miles west of here, too. 15 16 So we're here to take any ideas or 17 recommendations for proposals. I did speak with the 18 Refuge Staff a couple weeks a couple weeks ago to see 19 if they had anything interesting. And fisheries-wise, 20 the only thing new that I can recall under Federal 21 subsistence fisheries jurisdiction that's happened in 22 Kodiak in the last couple years, if you recall, last 23 summer we had a Chinook salmon restriction around 24 Karluk. There was a serious problem with the number of 25 kings, Chinook salmon coming back to Karluk. 26 27 So if you'll remember correctly, Kodiak 28 is unique in that it has several large sloss (ph) of 29 marine waters under Federal subsistence fisheries 30 jurisdiction, and we can go through that later on if 31 you want to, but off the mouth of Karluk it's a half- 32 mile offshore, and it goes both ways, about a mile or 33 two. That's Federal subsistence fisheries 34 jurisdiction. 35 36 So we didn't have enough kings coming 37 back. There was a restriction on the Federal 38 subsistence side, and the State took restrictions on 39 the commercial fisheries to release kings. Anything 40 that came up in the seine went back over the side, 41 except for fish under, I don't know, 18 inches. There 42 as a minimum size limit where under State regulations, 43 there was no need to return them to the ocean. That 44 caused an issue with the Federal program, in that we 45 have a Federally-qualified subsistence user fishing, 46 not allowed to retain a salmon in waters because of 47 conservation issues, but a commercial fishery that was 48 allowed to retain, even though they were small fish, 49 even though the numbers were very low likely of Chinook 50

Page 83 1 salmon under X amount. The Refuge manager here did 2 make a restriction last summer and closed the waters 3 around the mouth of Karluk in the marine waters, closed 4 it to retention of Chinook salmon by anybody, both 5 State and Federal. 6 7 Well, that was new and a lot of folks 8 weren't aware of the marine jurisdiction that this 9 Council and the Federal program has. Also three miles 10 around Afognak and Womens Bay here. 11 12 And Mr. Holmes said something very 13 interesting about the lack of shell fish in the bay 14 here, because one thing or another, I don't have the 15 survey information in front of me to explain what 16 happened, but this is the time to submit a proposal if 17 you're concerned about Dungies. That's the first time 18 I actually recall hearing information about problems 19 with Dungies locally. I know tanner crabs have come, 20 you know, up and down, up and down, but to hear the 21 kings, the tanners, and the Dungies are in trouble in 22 Federal subsistence marine waters -- you know, in some 23 other areas that might warrant a proposal to close the 24 waters under Federal subsistence fisheries jurisdiction 25 to non-Federally-qualified. Currently the kings -- or 26 the king crab fishery is closed to non-Federally- 27 qualified, but you still can fish for other species. 28 So if Federally-qualified subsistence users feel that 29 they cannot -- the opportunity does not exist, and 30 there might be a conservation concern, or you're 31 concerned about continuance of subsistence uses, this 32 is the time to submit a proposal. 33 34 And I'm open for discussion, or you can 35 call us later, or you can submit them later. But the 36 deadline is about March 21st. 37 38 Thank you, Madame Chair. 39 40 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you. Does 41 the Council have any wishes at this time. 42 43 (No comments) 44 45 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Hearing none, 46 moving on. 47 48 MR. PAPPAS: Okay. I wasn't ready for 49 that. 50

Page 84 1 (Laughter) 2 3 MR. PAPPAS: Okay. Next on the agenda 4 will be the Fisheries Resource Monitoring Program 5 update and discussion. Excuse me, the Partners Program 6 is what I have here next. 7 8 So the Partners of Fisheries Monitoring 9 notice for funding opportunity. There is a flyer in 10 the materials on this. This fall the Office of 11 Subsistence Management will be seeking proposals for 12 Partner programs to strengthen Alaska Native and rural 13 involvement in Federal subsistence management. The 14 Partners Program is a competitive grant that is 15 directed at providing funding for biologists, social 16 scientists, and educator positions in an Alaska Native 17 and rural non-profit organizations with the intent of 18 increasing the organization's ability to participate in 19 the Federal subsistence management. In addition the 20 program supports a variety of opportunities for local 21 rural students to connect with subsistence resource 22 monitoring and management throughout science camps and 23 paid internships. The notice of funding opportunity 24 will be announced via news release and posted at OSM 25 website. And for more information, you can get the 26 information from Karen Deatherage who can forward you 27 to the right individuals. 28 29 And that concludes the Fisheries 30 Monitoring update. 31 32 Do you have any questions. 33 34 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Mitch, do you 35 have any comments, questions. 36 37 MR. SIMEONOFF: (No comments) 38 39 MR. HOLMES: George, do we need to 40 provide more input on the Fisheries Monitoring projects 41 that we've already endorsed or what we've got on record 42 would go into the pot for the people that are doing the 43 allocations? 44 45 MR. PAPPAS: That is my next topic, if 46 we're ready to move on to that, Madame Chair. Okay. 47 48 So the third part here is the Fisheries 49 Resource Monitoring Program, FRMP as everybody calls 50

Page 85 1 the update. So we're currently in the final phases of 2 the FRMP funding cycle. The Federal Subsistence Board 3 is meeting today and tomorrow in Anchorage, and they 4 will make the final call on how all the proposals -- 5 excuse me, all the projects that were submitted and 6 ranked, if it's going to be approved or not. We'll 7 also have an idea of what budgetary funds will be 8 available, so as you know, everyone that does -- it's a 9 competitive process, not all of them get funded. And 10 if I remember correctly they actually put a funding 11 limit on per project last year or the year before of 12 200 and something thousand dollars, because there were 13 some big projects out there. And during times of 14 potential budget cuts, one project could, you know, 15 supersede 10 projects for the same price. But that's 16 neither here nor there. So they are voting today or 17 tomorrow; I don't have exactly when, and I will have 18 that information. I'll make some calls so you'll know 19 how it came out. 20 21 So at this point, through the Chair, 22 Mr. Holmes, the information you had provided here on 23 record, or built a record here, the Board won't hear 24 before they actually make the decision. I could try to 25 forward it, but it's already -- it's past that stage, 26 and my assumption is, is that this Council built a 27 fantastic record to support the local project. 28 29 Even though the 2018 plan hasn't been 30 finalized yet, it's time to begin forming the priority 31 information needs for the 2020 FRMP call for proposals 32 that's due out in November 2018. So as you recall, the 33 FRMP projects, part of their criteria for evaluation or 34 how much they meet the Regional Advisory Council's list 35 of prioritized needs. What is important to you. Is it 36 Dungies off of Afognak. Is it Karluk kings. Is it -- 37 well, you understand, whatever prioritization for the 38 fish process does carry through. So we do need to know 39 what your intent is for prioritization for projects 40 that you want investigated. 41 42 Let's see here. The priority 43 information needs are an important component, and they 44 identify the local concerns and knowledge gaps related 45 to subsistence fisheries, and using input from the 46 Regional Advisory Councils; and also the priority 47 information needs does provide a framework to assist 48 with the evaluation process of future proposals. The 49 Council with working groups will meet during the summer 50

Page 86 1 to start developing -- Councils with working groups 2 will start in the summer to start developing priority 3 information needs aiming for four to six regions. 4 5 And if your Council has a working group 6 -- does this Council have a working group? 7 8 (Council nods affirmatively) 9 10 MR. PAPPAS: Okay, it does. 11 12 These participating members should 13 develop a course of action to meet over the summer to 14 update the priority information needs for the 2020 FRMP 15 funding cycle. So that would be an action item today, 16 right, Karen, to set a course, if the group is going to 17 meet and when they'll meet. 18 19 And I believe that conclude my 20 information. 21 22 Do you have any questions about the 23 FRMP process. 24 25 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Rick. 26 27 MR. PAPPAS: Sir. 28 29 MR. KOSO: Yeah, George. I just got an 30 email of today's meeting in Anchorage of the Federal 31 Subsistence Board. They just voted to approve the 18- 32 450, which was the Unalaska Bay area, and they reneged 33 on that one, and they picked up two proposals, I guess 34 it was 451 in the Buskin River, and another on in 35 Kodiak. So they funded those two. They didn't fund 36 the Unalaska one, which the RAC over here recommended 37 highly that they fund the Unalaska one. So it was kind 38 of discouraging to see that they went ahead and funded 39 the ones here in Kodiak, but neglected to fund the one 40 that we highly recommended they fund in Unalaska. So I 41 don't know why the reason of that is, but that just 42 came through on my deal, I was just reading it here 43 just now. 44 45 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Karen. 46 47 MS. DEATHERAGE: Thank you, Madame 48 Chair. Mr. Koso, through the Chair. I do want to 49 assure the Council that the comments from the fall 50

Page 87 1 meeting where the Council did request to move that 2 Unalaska project up and rank it higher, those were sent 3 to the Board. We can certainly provide the minutes 4 from the Board and any information that might be 5 helpful to you to understand why they chose what they 6 did. And we'll be sure to do that when we get back. 7 8 Thank you. 9 10 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Rick. 11 12 MR. KOSO: Oh, I'm done. 13 14 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Go ahead, 15 Rebecca. 16 17 MS. SKINNER: So I realize that this -- 18 I'm not sure if that was exactly official information, 19 so do we know -- did nothing at Unalaska get funded 20 or..... 21 22 MR. KOSO: No, I just not the thing. 23 They just organized -- I mean..... 24 25 REPORTER: Please, mic. Mic. Thank 26 you. 27 28 MR. KOSO: They just voted on it this 29 morning in Anchorage, and they voted to not fund the 30 Unalaska project. They voted to fund the 18-451 which 31 is the project I think out of Buskin here in Kodiak. 32 But the one we requested highly was the 18-450, which 33 would have been the Unalaska Bay that we recommended 34 that they fund. And to my understanding is that they 35 got the two Kodiak, but not the Unalaska one that was 36 funded. It was voted in this morning. 37 38 MS. SKINNER: Okay. Yeah, it would be 39 helpful, I don't know, George, if you can get an update 40 to see which out of our region were funded. So was it 41 just the two Kodiak ones and nothing else, or was it 42 Kodiak and some other..... 43 44 MR. KOSO: Well, these were the three 45 that came up, and these were the ones that were voted 46 in our region. And this was the money that we received 47 for the Kodiak and not designated for the Dutch Harbor 48 one. I think those were the ones that we had in play. 49 50

Page 88 1 MS. SKINNER: Okay. Yeah. I just 2 wasn't sure if you were only reported on those three 3 projects, and there might have been other ones that did 4 get funded or not, but if that was everything that got 5 funded for our region, then that answers my question. 6 7 MR. KOSO: As far as I understand, that 8 was the only ones that was in our region that we 9 requested as far as the RAC Board was concerned. 10 11 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: If I may, 12 George, if you can find out exactly what was funded, 13 and then if we can go -- I don't have them available, 14 but maybe, Karen, if we can figure out exactly -- I for 15 one would like to know which three, if there's two for 16 Kodiak is apparently what got funded, and I know I, for 17 one, would like to know exactly what was funded. 18 19 MR. PAPPAS: Thank you, Madame Chair. 20 As soon as I step away, I will start making telephone 21 calls. 22 23 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you. 24 25 Pat. 26 27 MR. HOLMES: Madame Chair. Or through 28 the Chair, George, could you also if they have some 29 verbiage as to why they made the decision not to fund 30 Unalaska, that would be good to know. 31 32 MR. PAPPAS: Through the Chair. 33 Council Member Holmes, I will try to get that taken 34 care of today. I'm uncertain it will happen today, but 35 we will try to -- through your Council coordinator, we 36 will have an answer to the question you asked. Thank 37 you, Mr. Chair -- or through the Chair. 38 39 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: I think if 40 you'll look at Page 10 of your minutes, in about the 41 center, discusses the FRMP program and the discussion 42 or comments made by Rebecca. And I guess given that we 43 requested that the Unalaska project be ranked 2 and not 44 3, and I'm assuming Buskin was number 1, then if there 45 was two Kodiak, why was Unalaska left out. So some 46 information I think would be helpful, because it really 47 concerns when a Council makes these recommendations and 48 they're fully supported that without any consultation 49 or discussion with any Council members to be doing what 50

Page 89 1 has been done, the action that was taken. So let's get 2 that information, and we'll look at that again. 3 4 Thank you, George. 5 6 Did you have anything else on the FRMP. 7 8 MR. PAPPAS: I do not have anything 9 else. I was really hoping for a fisheries proposal or 10 two, but I'm always hoping for that. 11 12 Thank you, Madame Chair. 13 14 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you. 15 16 MR. HOLMES: Della. 17 18 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Pat. 19 20 MR. HOLMES: I have a question for you 21 and for George indirectly. I'm wondering with funds 22 drying up and more difficult decisions making on 23 funding, is there a way in which our Council can 24 express concerns or needs for research or projects 25 where we can state those so that they're available for 26 agencies like the Department of Fish and Game or NOAA 27 to be able to say, yeah, this is important. And I'm 28 thinking in the case of Womens Bay and I'm wondering 29 if, with the expression of our concern, if there might 30 be some way where at a low cost those agencies might be 31 able to help improve the crab populations in Womens 32 Bay. And this is just rattling out of my geezer brain. 33 A potential of seeing if maybe the Department when 34 they're doing their king crab surveys down in Mitch's 35 end of the island to maybe bring some of them back up 36 here and chuck them into Womens Bay, and then see if 37 the NOAA divers, because a lot of their work that they 38 used to report to us, and granted they've got big 39 budget cuts, too, just like the Department, but they 40 use to -- part of their training for their divers was 41 to look at the crab in Womens Bay. And I'm just 42 wondering if there's some creative way where we can 43 wave, you know, a yellow flag and say, gee, we're 44 worried, and so that folks might put a little more 45 priority beyond the FRMP project to say, hey, this is 46 important for Kodiak subsistence. Anyway I'm just 47 wondering is there some way we could try to have some 48 creative solutions without having to have a big formal 49 FRMP budget thing. And you probably can't answer, but 50

Page 90 1 when you come up with an idea, it would be nice to 2 know. 3 4 Thank you. 5 6 MR. PAPPAS: Through the Chair. 7 Council Member Pat, that's a tough one. I would say 8 the first stepping stone to put on record, officially 9 on record, what you're concerns are, and you've 10 indicated the shell fish concerns in Womens Bay. You 11 know, the part about moving animals, I mean, stocking, 12 that might be challenging. But in the process of 13 researching the Bay, in the process of partnering with 14 other organizations or tribes and capacity-building 15 with multiple funding sources for one project, there 16 may be multiple jurisdictions, well, once you're past 17 the line in Womens Bay outside of Federal subsistence 18 jurisdiction, there's no more sampling. If that is in 19 your priority information needs list, that will be 20 advertised. 21 22 And whether or not we can come up with 23 something that really works -- but funding for part of 24 a project for the water quality -- and you have 25 concerns. Why do we have weirs? To figure out what 26 happened to the fish and what's going to happen to the 27 fish. Well, why do we research shellfish? To figure 28 out what happened, and what we can do to make it 29 better. That's the whole idea for subsistence. And 30 this Council has built a very solid record on the 31 identity and the culture of the shellfish, and it's 32 pretty important. 33 34 So my professional opinion is to 35 capture that in the comments of the priority 36 information needs, and later on they can sort out what 37 part of that priority information could be funded with 38 the FRMP process. If someone put a project in to co- 39 fund or split fund a larger project, that's just one -- 40 I'm thinking out of the box, like you have made me do 41 for about 30 years, Pat. 42 43 Thank you. 44 45 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Rick. 46 47 MR. KOSO: Well, you know on that 450 48 for Unalaska one, the tribal in Unalaska were involved 49 in this. The Aleut Corporation was involved in this. 50

Page 91 1 And so was the ANCSA regional corporation was involved 2 in this. So it wasn't like it was just out there by 3 itself. We had other corporations that were going to 4 chip into this whole operation and do it with them. 5 And it was like -- I was told it was like they never 6 even considered the RAC recommendation during this -- 7 that vote this morning, so it kind of ticks me off a 8 little bit that they didn't even consider our 9 recommendation. 10 11 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Karen, did you 12 have a comment. 13 14 MS. DEATHERAGE: Thank you, Madame 15 Chair. Member Koso. I do know that the anthropologist 16 who was here and recorded the comments of the Council 17 during that presentation or was in Cold Bay, did put 18 the information in the Federal Subsistence Board book, 19 and was supposed to be on record putting forth the 20 Council's recommendations. Whether that happened or 21 not, I can't attest to, but I know that that was the 22 plan. 23 24 Thank you. 25 26 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: And I guess 27 maybe I have a question. When you say that 28 anthropologist or whomever put that information in the 29 book, does -- and I guess at this particular time, 30 Mitch is our Chair. Does somebody on this Council have 31 an opportunity to read what is being submitted, because 32 it's a concern if -- there was some strong discussion 33 on this. It feels to some degree like, you know, if 34 things are put on the wayside. And this ain't the 35 first time this discussion came up, because I think 36 this counsel has talked about how they are prioritizing 37 these issues and with no direct information or 38 consultation or community with any of the Council 39 members of the areas that are affected by it. 40 41 Sam. 42 43 MR. ROHRER: Through the Chair. I 44 don't know if we've ever done this before, but 45 certainly those meetings are public meetings. We 46 should probably remember to next year send one of our 47 Council members, probably the Chair or the Vice Chair 48 there and we'll see if -- they might not give us a 49 chance to testify, but they have breaks, and when they 50

Page 92 1 have breaks, you can twist arms. That's how you get 2 stuff done at Board meetings. So..... 3 4 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Don't they have 5 public comment period? 6 7 MR. ROHRER: I don't know if they have 8 public comments, but we'll have time to talk to the 9 Board members on the side. So we should consider that. 10 11 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. Thank 12 you. 13 14 Rebecca, did you have a comment. 15 16 MS. SKINNER: I did. I was just going 17 to reflect that when I first got on the Council a few 18 years ago, I do remember discussion in regards to FRMP 19 about I'll call it the tension between the kind of 20 technical and scientific recommendations or 21 prioritizations versus this Council's recommendations. 22 So I assume that this is probably kind of a 23 continuation of that, which I think is a valuable part 24 of the process. As community representatives, we bring 25 a certain perspective to the table, and we have our 26 prioritization process. At the same time there is the 27 technical and scientific side. So I guess my request- 28 slash-suggestion would be maybe we could get kind of a 29 presentation on the technical and scientific side so 30 that we better understand what they are taking into 31 account and what's really important from their 32 perspective, because if some of these projects are just 33 falling flat on the technical side, I'm not saying I 34 agree, but I could see why a project might not get 35 funded if you have a very strong recommendation from 36 the scientific/technical side saying this project just 37 is missing -- you know, it has big gaps. But maybe if 38 we better understood that, maybe we would feel less 39 frustrated. We probably would still feel frustrated, 40 but I do think having an understanding of both 41 perspectives is usually a better approach. 42 43 So that would be my suggestion is that 44 at some point in the future we be able to get that 45 information and have some discussion. 46 47 MR. PAPPAS: Through the Chair. 48 49 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: George. 50

Page 93 1 MR. PAPPAS: Council Member Skinner. I 2 concur. So I'm the co-Chair for the technical review 3 committee, the TRC, who puts all the different 4 organizations together for the evaluation process, and 5 it's a fairly complex matrix of the different 6 priorities. It's laid out in the call for funding 7 there, but it's scored -- I saw some projects last year 8 in the process, been going a long time, almost 9 mandatory, really needed projects, weirs Interior, but 10 they didn't have a single person locally hired or 11 involved. Maybe, you know, catch a ride to the weir. 12 That's not building local capacity. And you lose 25 13 points on a score when you have no reference in your op 14 plan for local capacity. And they went to the bottom 15 of the list. And some of these projects had been a 16 long time. I mean, a long time. And they just didn't 17 write them right. 18 19 And each of the projects are assigned 20 someone at OSM as a project investigating officer to 21 work through the process and send it back to them time 22 and time again, hey, if you want to be in the running, 23 here are the criteria. Let me circle what you missed. 24 And they missed it two, three times. 25 26 So you're looking for a more 27 transparent understanding of how the system works from 28 all directions. And that I will take home to the Staff 29 and we'll see what we can do. 30 31 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you, but 32 I'm going to comment and I'm sorry if I offend anybody. 33 Let's put it that way before I say what I say. 34 35 I still have a problem with this 36 process. When we sit here an go through the 37 deliberations, the discussion and come up with what our 38 requested needs are, prioritized, and that's what we're 39 asked to do, but yet it's like it's put on the wayside. 40 And I'm going to take it a step farther, you know, and 41 don't get me wrong, I fully support what needs to be 42 done with the Buskin River. I support what needs -- 43 but as long a I've been on this Council, going on 21 44 years, we've always had the Buskin River. But there 45 are other needs within the whole the region as a whole, 46 you know. At some point I think we need to look to, 47 hey, we've got to recognize that this one unit isn't 48 the only unit for the whole region. It's the only one 49 that's going to be done. I mean, we realize it's 50

Page 94 1 important. But there's other important areas and needs 2 that seem to always get pushed aside. And I'm from the 3 Aleutians. I see it happen all the time. We don't get 4 a heck of a lot going on out there. And that may be -- 5 that's, like I say, it's my opinion. 6 7 And, you know, Pat could kick me under 8 the table after, but -- or arm wrestle to see who's 9 right. But it is a big concern. And like I say, once 10 we figure -- you can get the information, I'd like this 11 to come back to the table. 12 13 MR. PAPPAS: I will, and I concur. I've 14 fished McLees, I'm one of the few people that actually 15 had done aerial surveys out there. I live out in 16 Unalaska for years, and it's one of the more beautiful 17 systems I've ever seen, you know, the way the fish are, 18 the numbers they come in, and the mysterious why one 19 year it's 5,000 fish, the next year it's 92,000 fish. 20 You know, there's some mystery there still they haven't 21 figured out yet, but I understand what you've said. 22 23 We have record built here. 24 25 Thank you. 26 27 MR. KOSO: You know, I think Chris 28 would vouch for this, you know, we've dealt with this 29 on the Board of Fish, trying to get the draggers out of 30 Unalaska Bay, and that was about a five, six year 31 project, and we finally got that done a few years ago. 32 And working with Vince and the people in Dutch Harbor. 33 But, you know, it was to the point where the 34 subsistence fishermen couldn't catch a halibut, 35 couldn't catch a crab, and hardly a salmon. I think we 36 discussed many times on the waterfront there outside of 37 town that we were having problems trying to get enough 38 fish up to the river for people to be able to do 39 subsistence. So this is a real high priority that was 40 in my mind that really needed some help, an it still 41 needs help. So I think we really need to push for the 42 funding for Unalaska. Yeah, there's almost 5,000 43 people living there, and they can't hardly catch enough 44 fish without going clean around the island any more 45 where they used to just go down to the beach there and 46 get all they wanted. But that doesn't happen any more 47 since the -- you know, after the draggers came in and 48 started tearing everything up in the bay. And so 49 they're out of there now, so I think we need to do 50

Page 95 1 whatever we could to help the tribe or get that fixed. 2 3 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: I think -- yeah, 4 I think all of our needs are important. And somehow 5 we've got to look at short-term, long-term, two years, 6 five years, 10 years where we want to be possibly. 7 And, you know, they're going to change all the time, 8 but at least -- I don't know. 9 10 Pat. 11 12 MR. HOLMES: Madame Chairman. I think 13 if we arm wrestled, you'd beat me, because you're 30 14 years younger and lots stronger, and certainly stronger 15 of mind than I am. 16 17 I think it's important for us to find 18 out what did get passed and what didn't, and why, 19 because when we had that briefing, when we had the 20 joint meetings on how to guide along this process for 21 folks to fund research needs for us, one of the things 22 that stuck with me is that for all these little, nit- 23 picky little digit 1, 2, 3, 4s, and if you don't have 24 1, 3, and 5, they it gets thrown out regardless of its 25 merit. And one of the things that we were urged to 26 coach, and we probably didn't do a good enough job, is 27 to follow up on the proposals, that they go in, and for 28 us to find out when they're going into the analysis so 29 that we -- because there's that culling period, and up 30 until that culling period, Chris could submit anything 31 he wants, and you can go back to the review board and 32 say, gee, what's wrong with my proposal. But once they 33 hit that date, then that's the end. But if you've 34 forgotten 3 and 5, then it gets tossed out. 35 36 So if that's what's happened to McLees, 37 then that's something we need to know about, because 38 it's really important. And we used to have priority for 39 Afognak, and in my mind we let that go in favor of 40 trying to get the funding for McLees and the Buskin, 41 because those are the two primary subsistence systems 42 in the whole -- in our region. 43 44 And back when I was with the 45 Department, I used to be the salmon biologist for 46 Unalaska and the Aleutians, and I wrote a memo saying 47 that we needed to do work on McLees Lake. And that's 48 when they had another oil crisis, and I was rewarded 49 with spending the winter in Cold Bay sampling cod fish. 50

Page 96 1 And so then I resigned, because we got nowhere at 2 Unalaska. 3 4 But it's really, really important that 5 we find out and understand better this evaluation 6 process so that we can provide those clues to the 7 people that are doing it as, hey, get it in early, get 8 it checked, make sure you've got every single thing 9 dotted. And then I think for us, we should in our 10 letter this time express our concern and disappointment 11 that McLees did not get funded, because I think we have 12 solid consensus on that. 13 14 Thank you, Madame Chair. 15 16 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. Before we 17 get -- Rebecca, if I may say this. So we had Buskin, 18 Akalura, McLees. And the Council said to prioritize 19 Buskin and McLees. And part of the reason was because 20 the discussion we brought up about we're two separate 21 regions, try to be fair. I recall that discussion, 22 too. So if two got funded, that's going to be Buskin 23 and Akalura. 24 25 MR. PAPPAS: I'd have to -- I do not 26 know what's been funded, I..... 27 28 MS. PETRIVELLI: I know which ones 29 were. 30 31 MR. PAPPAS: Okay. Pat Petrivelli can 32 help you. Please pull up a seat. 33 34 MS. PETRIVELLI: Glenn Chen was 35 attending the Board meeting, and he was the Staff 36 Committee member for BIA. And I texted him and asked 37 him. And the Board passed the projects recommended in 38 the plan. And the projects recommended in the plan for 39 this area were Buskin -- well, the two tied projects 40 were Buskin and the -- 400 and 451, those were the two. 41 They were tied number 1. So that's what the Board 42 passed. 43 44 MS. SKINNER: What was the 45 (indiscernible -- mic off). 46 47 MS. PETRIVELLI: 18-400, which is 48 Buskin, and 18-451, the subsistence harvest trends of 49 salmon and non-salmon in four southern Kodiak Island 50

Page 97 1 communities. Those two projects were tied for number 2 1. Now, that's what was recommended in the draft 3 fisheries monitoring plan based upon the technical 4 review committee. And that's what the Board adopted. 5 6 MR. HOLMES: Well, that's where -- 7 pardon me, Madame Chair. I think that's where it 8 changed was at the review board from what we had 9 discussed. I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong. 10 11 MS. PETRIVELLI: Well, these 12 recommendations were made before the Councils met. And 13 the Board was provided with the recommendations from 14 the Councils, but the Board went with the 15 recommendations from the TRC. And there were two Board 16 members, Fish and Wildlife Service and the Park Service 17 who want to look at how the process works, because I 18 think there is a realization of frustrations of asking 19 people for their opinions after the priorities are 20 established. Whether those are priorities. And it is 21 very -- it is changing, because when the program first 22 started up, there was like four or five millions 23 dollars. This year there's one and a half million 24 dollars to two million dollars, and that's it for the 25 whole State. And I'm leaving out the Forest Service 26 funds, because that's Southeast and part of 27 Southcentral. 28 29 So this process has gotten very 30 competitive, and it's true -- and I'm on the technical 31 review committee, and I debated whether to come up now, 32 or if you'd want to have more time to discuss it later, 33 but I know how we go through each application. We have 34 the full application, we have the full budget, and 35 there's all -- I forget how -- all the agencies are 36 represented with teams of biologists and 37 anthropologists, and we look at it, whether it's multi- 38 regional, multi-disciplinary, and then we hit the five 39 criteria. There's five criteria, and we assign points 40 for each of those. And the recommendations that were 41 forwarded were as they were ranked by those scores. 42 And that's all we did, you know. I mean, because we 43 just rank them according to how well they did their 44 applications. And I would push for -- because we 45 didn't have your recommendations, but whenever RAC 46 recommendations were directly addressed, I would bring 47 that up every time, and I would score them as high as 48 possible as a priority. But we have to score all five 49 categories, you know. The RAC recommendation priority 50

Page 98 1 needs counts and the strategic priority, but then 2 there's other things, scientific and technical merit, 3 there's capacity building, there's -- and I forget the 4 other, and then there's two other categories. Oh, 5 their cost/benefit analysis, and then one more. So 6 there's a total of five categories to grade each on. 7 And I'm sure someone at FRMP will come and give a more 8 thorough presentation, but the way the process is now, 9 the Board accepted the rankings from the TRC, and that 10 was in the plan -- or those were presented to the 11 Board, and they adopted those as they were presented. 12 13 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Rick. 14 15 MR. KOSO: Yeah. I've got to differ 16 with you a little bit. I've talked with Kay Larson, 17 who's been on the Regional Advisory Subsistence Board 18 for eight years. She attended that meeting. And she 19 said that the RAC recommendation wasn't even considered 20 during this action. So we put our proposal in to rate 21 Unalaska as the number 1 project that I remember when 22 we were talking about this. And it sounded like our 23 recommendation was not even considered. So I guess 24 that's what kind of ticks me off a little bit. Maybe 25 I'm missing something along the line, because it's all 26 secondhand information, but it's a person that I trust 27 who's been on the Board and understands it very well. 28 And so it's not someone that's just off the street that 29 I was talking to. 30 31 So anyway, it doesn't really matter. I 32 think we just need to -- what's done is done, and I 33 think the Board needs to move on, and then hopefully 34 try to get things fixed. I mean, it's great, now 35 they're going to get the Buskin stuff going. That's 36 fine. But we still need to look at Dutch Harbor and 37 hopefully in the next go around we'll get some money 38 out that way. 39 40 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Rick, and if I 41 may, what she said, being on the TRC committee, the 42 RAC's opinion or recommendation was not taken into 43 consideration. We had our meeting after they already 44 had made a decision, because -- and so we've got an 45 issue that's a process issue. And as far as I'm 46 concerned, then why do you even bringing this to us, if 47 what we're saying doesn't matter. 48 49 So what needs to be done is to look at 50

Page 99 1 the process. Number 1, this RAC needs to be consulted 2 on anything that involves our region. And our opinion 3 needs to be on the table when decisions are being made, 4 because otherwise there's no reason for us being here. 5 6 I always have a problem when I hear 7 scientists and biologists and anthropologists, but the 8 people, the very people that it affects aren't at the 9 table to make it have an opinion, we have no reason to 10 be here. So whether it's our annual report or in our 11 letter, what we do is to make sure that issue gets 12 addressed, my recommendation, from this Council. 13 14 Karen. 15 16 MS. DEATHERAGE: Thank you, Madame 17 Chair. This is my understanding of the process. The 18 TRC receives the proposals and ranks those proposals 19 and prepares its recommendations to the Board. 20 Following that, the Councils are given those rankings 21 by the TRC so that they can see, we've ranked this one, 22 two, three, and four on the proposals that were 23 submitted. The Councils in turn make comments on that. 24 Those comments are indeed considered by the Board. 25 Whether or not they were this time around, I can't 26 speak to that, but they are -- it's kind of like what 27 happens with wildlife proposals. When they come in, 28 the OSM does an analysis, they make a recommendation. 29 Then the Council gets to deliberate on that, and 30 decide. And then it goes to the Board, and the Board 31 is weighing the Council's opinion, the TRC's, and 32 that's how they come up with the decision. So just 33 because the TRC has made those rankings, that doesn't 34 mean the Board is going to necessarily follow those 35 recommendations. They are not required to, but they 36 have to have, just like anything else, a justification 37 for why they may choose another project over one 38 recommended by the TRC. 39 40 So we can certainly find out what 41 happened, whether these recommendations were before the 42 Board either in writing or in -- verbally presented by 43 the anthropologist, and why those recommendations were 44 not considered in making the final decision. I think 45 that we can certainly do that. But I think the process 46 is available for you to put your comments on record 47 like you would anything else. 48 49 Thank you. 50

Page 100 1 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Rebecca. 2 3 MS. SKINNER: I do think that we have 4 an opportunity to continue refining and improving the 5 process. Since I've been on this Council, you know, I 6 do think it feels like we are consulted very late in 7 the process, and certainly right now it feels like our 8 comments weren't taken into account. 9 10 But what I wanted to comment on is the 11 progress we've made vis-a-vis the FRMP over the last 12 several years, because we get lumped in with Bristol 13 Bay. So when I first got on the Council, Bristol Bay 14 was getting a lot of funding for their projects, and 15 our entire region was not. This last year we did have 16 the joint meetings with the Bristol Bay RAC, and ended 17 up coming up with kind of joint priorities for what 18 would be our FRMP region, which is different than our 19 RAC regions. So while I -- I mean, I'm feeling 20 frustrated today that our comments weren't taken into 21 account with the current funding, but I do want to note 22 that, I mean, I think we were very successful as far as 23 coordinating with Bristol Bay and coming up with 24 priorities that allowed projects in our region to do 25 well. 26 27 And I guess my comment would be to make 28 suer when we do our priorities next time, that we have 29 the -- if we want to do something out in Unalaska, that 30 we have that very strongly reflected in our priorities, 31 because it does sound like the technical review 32 committee -- I mean, that's where they are taking our 33 input, is they're looking at the priorities that we set 34 when they're reviewing the projects. So I think that's 35 where we can have a really powerful effect. 36 Unfortunately we're setting priorities for something 37 that's going to happen it seems like two or three years 38 in advance. So that's frustrating. But, yeah, I just 39 don't want people to forget that I think we really have 40 made a lot of progress on this over the last several 41 years. 42 43 Thanks. 44 45 MR. KOSO: Yeah. I'd just like to 46 suggest Sam Rohrer's recommendation was to make sure we 47 have somebody at that FSB meeting at the next one's go 48 around, that one or two representatives from the Board. 49 So that if there's -- this does come up, they'll be 50

Page 101 1 able to speak on our behalf. So I think that would 2 solve a lot of the problems here, and that we could get 3 real answers back if it doesn't turn out the way we 4 want. 5 6 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Pat. 7 8 MR. HOLMES: Yeah. Well stated, Becky. 9 I thought that that was -- hit the nail on the head. 10 And we are improving. I think one of the areas that we 11 need more information on is what are those five 12 criteria, because I'd like to know if Ward's bear camp 13 is submitting a proposal to monitor bears, I'd like to 14 know that they're doing it to make sure that they 15 follow all five criteria, or that they are -- the 16 applicant need to know what the criteria are, because I 17 know from gossip, on knowing people up in your shop for 18 OSM when it got started, it didn't always happen that 19 way. And it was emotional, and the people that had 20 never even been to the place were making judgments 21 based on their personal feelings, and then they 22 developed a criteria. But unless the applicant knows 23 what the criteria are, and we, when we are saying, hey, 24 this is important, we want the bear camp to do their 25 study, we want them to know what those five criteria 26 are. And in my mind if this decision that was made 27 took place, if part of that was based on the criteria, 28 that's part of the why I'd like to know that it didn't 29 happen. And, yes, we have a lot less money, but we 30 need to know how to get the applicants to be successful 31 with the things that we find at our priority, and not 32 have it driven by some, pardon me, bureaucrats that 33 have never been there or even understand caribou or 34 crab, what that means to somebody. 35 36 So I'm sorry to get emotional. 37 38 Madame Chair. 39 40 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: No, you're 41 allowed. No, it appears we've got some work to do. I 42 think we definitely need more information. We need to 43 figure this process out so we're better educated. 44 45 Mitch, before I go..... 46 47 MR. SIMEONOFF: I had a question. Does 48 this technical review have people from different 49 agencies at their meeting advocating for their 50

Page 102 1 projects? If that is the case, then why isn't this 2 Board part of that. 3 4 MS. PETRIVELLI: Oh, we don't have 5 anyone -- if someone's at their meeting advocating for 6 the project, that's not possible, because it's a 7 competitive process. And they're not allowed -- if 8 like say if Fish and Wildlife Service, because Fish and 9 Wildlife Service is on the technical review committee, 10 and ADF&G is on the technical review committee. BIA, 11 Forest Service, Park Service, BLM. If we submit a 12 proposal, and the last time I did was years ago, but in 13 Forest Service, so we cannot discuss the evaluation of 14 that proposal. If Glen Chen submitted a proposal, I 15 cannot evaluate his proposal. So whoever has submitted 16 the proposal cannot grade it. So that leaves the rest 17 of us that grade it. So we grade it upon the five 18 different criteria. And I was trying to look it up, 19 because it's o the web page, the five criteria. It 20 tells exactly what they are. And it's just -- I did 21 this last July. 22 23 Oh, here it is. The strategic 24 priority, technical, scientific merit, investigator 25 ability and resources, and that's where you look at 26 their past experience, or their education, partnership, 27 capacity building, and cost benefit. And so those are 28 the criteria they're to use to grade each project. And 29 you cannot grade your own project, or any project that 30 your agency has submitted. 31 32 MR. HOLMES: Well, could you do those a 33 little slower, Pat, I got two out of the five. 34 35 MS. PETRIVELLI: Okay. Strategic 36 priority. Technical, scientific merit. Investigator 37 ability and resources. Partnership-slash-capacity 38 building. And cost benefit. 39 40 And then there's a lengthy discussion 41 where we all agree about what we mean by those. And 42 it's described in there, but people interpret 43 everything, and everyone is encouraged to justify why 44 they give the scores they do. And so we have a 45 thorough discussion of each proposal as we go through 46 it and say why we graded them the way we do, and we go 47 through each proposal and grade them, using those 48 criteria and giving them points. And so everyone feels 49 comfortable at the end how they are. Because the goal 50

Page 103 1 is with the limited money available to identify the 2 projects that meet those criteria to the fullest 3 benefit. Theoretically they would be the ones that 4 would most likely succeed and produce results. 5 6 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Sam. 7 8 MR. ROHRER: Through the Chair. So 9 playing back off a little bit of what Pat said at the 10 very beginning of shepherding the proposals through 11 that we support, what I heard George say is during the 12 initial application process, there's lots of 13 opportunity for folks who put in proposals to go back 14 and update those proposals, to be more responsive, to 15 send things where you circled them and said, hey, you 16 didn't address number 5. So if that's the case, if our 17 Council has set our priorities before their process 18 begins, we know which team we're rooting for, we can 19 take it upon ourselves to help shepherd, in this 20 example, it would have been the McLees Lake project, we 21 could have gotten ahold of the people who submitted 22 that, helped shepherd it through. We could have talked 23 with George; we could have said, hey, you know, what's 24 going on with McLees Lake? What are they missing? 25 What do we have to do to help them? What information 26 do they need? We can take it upon ourselves to help 27 shepherd the ones we want to win through the process. 28 29 Ultimately we want the most qualified 30 projects getting the money. We know what projects we 31 want to get the money, so let's help our projects be 32 the most qualified. 33 34 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. Pat, then 35 Rebecca, and, Mitch, did you have another? Oh, okay. 36 Pat. 37 38 MS. PETRIVELLI: I agree with what Sam 39 said, but the important thing is, is before the 40 application deadline, because after the application 41 deadline -- and in the past we used to have -- when the 42 project first started, we had lots of funding. We had 43 a pre-proposal phase, and people were encouraged to 44 submit all kinds of good ideas. And then the FRMP 45 program worked with those people and fixed them, you 46 know. But we don't -- I mean, times have changed, you 47 know, but now there is no pre-proposal phase. But 48 there is a chance to fix them, if they submitted, you 49 know, like two months before the deadline. But once a 50

Page 104 1 deadline's there, because it's a competitive process, 2 and once a deadline's there, that's how we grade them 3 as is. That's all we can do is this is what's 4 submitted, this is a it, and that's what goes forward 5 to get the grade. 6 7 And then the last thing is -- oh, just 8 in case I don't get another chance, because George 9 keeps pointing out this time line. And one of the 10 important parts that they put the star on is priority 11 information needs, and then the proposal development. 12 But that is a critical portion. I mean, it does seem 13 early in the process, and it is hard to know if you can 14 even find somebody that would even submit a proposal 15 for what you feel is a priority information need, and 16 how to shepherd it, you know, two years in advance or 17 so. But I think that is the biggest way to get input 18 into the process is developing the priority information 19 needs. And the more specific the information need, the 20 better. 21 22 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Sam, did you 23 have a comment? Or Rebecca. 24 25 MS. SKINNER: Yeah. I was going to 26 comment that I think at the all Council meeting we had 27 in Anchorage a couple years ago, or a year ago, there 28 was a really good presentation and information on the 29 whole FRMP process, and all of the criteria, so the 30 five criteria that Pat read out, in addition to an 31 explanation of what those criteria are and how the 32 proposals are reviewed was part of the materials. And 33 given the dialogue today, I guess I would ask Karen 34 maybe if you can take an excerpt of that and forward it 35 around to the Council, because this is information that 36 many of us have had likely attended the presentation at 37 the all Council meeting. And I think it is important 38 for us to understand the process. 39 40 And, I mean, my sense is that the 41 people applying for the money understand the process. 42 I mean I think it is very well laid out. It's, you 43 know, you do one, two, and three, and you know what 44 each of the sections is worth. I don't' think it's a 45 matter that there's lack of clarity there. I think 46 sometimes with all grants you get some grant writers 47 that have more experience than other, and you can 48 probably tell the in the proposals. 49 50

Page 105 1 I think the area where this Council can 2 give a lot of support is helping -- if we identify a 3 priority, trying to do identify somebody to do a 4 proposal to line up with that priority, and then 5 helping kind of augment and help with the capacity 6 building, so using local resources on the project. And 7 then also just encouraging them to reach out as, you 8 know, during the pre-proposal phase, which might be 9 right now. So if you have idea now, I mean, this is 10 the time to be having conversations and reaching out 11 and trying to get your questions answered, because when 12 that deadline comes, you know, it' a grant, you can't 13 have discussions about the proposal. 14 15 So again I guess the point of my 16 comment was just to suggest that we circulate around 17 the FRMP information that was in the all Council 18 meeting packet. 19 20 Thanks. 21 22 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. 23 24 George, did you have a comment. 25 26 MR. PAPPAS: Yes, I did have one 27 comment. What is different now than the previous many, 28 many year is the process has evolved to remove the bias 29 of agencies voting for their own proposal. They are 30 recused now. There's multiple things have happened 31 with the evaluation process in the last two years to 32 make it more equitable and transparent. And obviously 33 it has not reached this level yet, so -- I mean here. 34 So that is something that I will be putting on the 35 front burner of the fisheries division to make sure you 36 have the information you're looking for. 37 38 And we were speaking about this time 39 line. The time line, I believe it's in your handouts 40 there, has two parts. It has a big star where the RAC 41 should be participating. And one is at the priority 42 information needs development, and the other on is the 43 Council input and comments. But as you indicated, 44 Della -- Madame Chairman, the technical review 45 committee review and evaluation happens before that, so 46 maybe this schedule -- what you're stating here on 47 record is that something is not sufficient. There's 48 room for improvement, and that will be taken back. And 49 we have built the record here. 50

Page 106 1 Thank you very much. 2 3 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. Thank 4 you. 5 6 Coral. 7 8 MS. CHERNOFF: I just have a question. 9 The part where these proposals are reviewed, is that 10 public, the reviews on those, so they don't know -- 11 nobody knows how they lost these proposals. 12 13 MS. PETRIVELLI: It's not a public 14 process; it's all confidential. Everything's 15 confidential about what goes on there, but each 16 investigator is provided a review, saying what the 17 pluses -- the positives and deficiencies in their 18 proposal, and the justifications for not being funded. 19 20 MS. CHERNOFF: So you provide those, 21 but those aren't made public. 22 23 MS. PETRIVELLI: They're not made 24 public. That is just the individual proponent. 25 26 And then there is a review. In your 27 last RAC book there was a one-page summary, and there 28 was a ranking of the proposals that was made public. 29 And then the justifications for those rankings that 30 gave a summary of the deficiencies of the proposals. 31 Or the positives in the proposals. 32 33 MS. CHERNOFF: Okay. I guess I see the 34 value of it being a competitive process and keeping 35 that process confidential. But after the fact, it 36 seems like for the sake of maybe some of the answers 37 we're looking for, perhaps we could ask for that 38 process to be opened up and transparent after the fact. 39 40 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. Lisa, did 41 you have a comment, you raised your hand. 42 43 MS. FOX: Sure. Yeah. 44 45 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: And then Karen. 46 47 MS. FOX: So my name is Lisa Fox. I'm 48 the area manager out there. And we submitted the 49 proposal for McLees Lake project. Colton Lipka was the 50

Page 107 1 author of that proposal. He submitted it early, and he 2 got feedback from the people who got the proposal, and 3 he made adjustments and he submitted it again. So he 4 was, you know, on top of it. 5 6 It is a project that has been funded by 7 AKSSF for the past six years, seven years. So it's a 8 successful project, and I don't think that we would 9 have scored low on any of the categories that they had. 10 I imagine it's just a really competitive funding cycle. 11 12 When we get this proposal back after we 13 officially learn that it's been rejected, we will look 14 at the criteria and we'll look at the scoring and we'll 15 make adjustments and we'll submit it again. And we can 16 share those comments with you guys so that we can all 17 learn how the scoring's done. 18 19 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. And, 20 Karen, did you have a comment. Thank you. 21 22 MS. DEATHERAGE: Thank you very much. 23 Madame Chair. Members of the Council. I did -- I've 24 been texting with our anthropologist who is at this 25 work session. We want to remind you that these -- 26 while we've heard they're funded, none of this is final 27 right now. And one of the reasons is because we don't 28 even know if we're getting the funding. Congress still 29 has to decide that. 30 31 Secondly, the McLees Lake proposal is 32 in the green zone they call it, which means that they 33 are recommending -- based on the budget, and the amount 34 of money that comes in, that it would be confidently 35 funded. So it is a good project. It's being seen as a 36 really good project. It was just slightly lower than 37 the two tied projects at the top for whatever reason, 38 which we can find out. 39 40 But right now there's no final. The 41 Board has made some of its recommendations, but it's 42 basing it on if we get this much funding, we'll do 43 this, but we want -- we're hoping to get this much 44 funding, and McLees Lake is still in the running 45 depending on the budget we get from Congress. 46 47 Thank you. 48 49 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you, 50

Page 108 1 Karen. But I still want to go back to the fact that we 2 need to address this Council's comments so we make sure 3 they're hard prior to whatever the step that Patty had 4 talked about. I think it's very important, otherwise 5 why are we bothering. It's a very important step in 6 this partnership process. 7 8 MS. LARSON-BLAIR: Hi. This is Kay on 9 line. Is this open for public comment. 10 11 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Yes. Go ahead. 12 Can you restate your name again, please. 13 14 MS. LARSON-BLAIR: My name is Kay 15 Larson-Blair, and I work at the Aleut Corporation. And 16 I used to work with the Office of Subsistence 17 Management since 2005 to about 2015. 18 19 And I was just at the Federal 20 Subsistence Board workshop. And they did have two 21 projects, the Buskin River sockeye salmon assessment, 22 and the Kodiak Island Olga and Akalura Lake salmon and 23 non-salmon harvest projects that were recommended for 24 funding. 25 26 The other project within the southwest 27 region, the Unalaska fish harvest practices and the 28 McLees sockeye salmon escapement projects were not 29 recommended for funding, but the TRC did say that they 30 were scientifically sound and assuming they were able 31 to fund all projects, that would be one of them; 32 however, this one is not being recommended for funding. 33 34 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you. That 35 was my point. This Council said Buskin and McLees. So 36 there we are. 37 38 Is there anything else? I think we 39 will just have some discussion I think on what we need 40 to do. 41 42 MR. KOSO: Yeah, I think we've beat 43 this up enough here to move on. 44 45 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Yeah. 46 47 Oh, Chris, do you have a comment. 48 49 MR. PRICE: Yeah, I'd just like to 50

Page 109 1 thank everyone. I can tell you guys put a lot of 2 effort into advocating for Unalaska, and there's two 3 different kind of projects out there. And just coming 4 on right now, I don't want to be, you know, like the 5 new kid on the block, trying to, you know, criticize 6 anybody in the process, but it looks like there's some 7 process issues that need to be addressed, and that 8 Della's right on it. So I jut want to thank everybody. 9 We've missed out on lots of proposals. We know what 10 it's like to get denied on grant funding. People in 11 Unalaska, we're fighters. We're just going to keep 12 going. We make it happen whoever we've got to do it. 13 And Lisa's heard a lot of the community complaints that 14 we have about our situation. So those aren't going to 15 change, so we'll just keep moving forward. Appreciate 16 your time and effort on this. 17 18 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you. 19 20 Any other Council members. 21 22 (No comments) 23 24 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: I do have a 25 question, Karen. Because -- is it an annual report or 26 when do we do the requests to the main Board, like for 27 this, the process, to make sure we're not at the -- at 28 least a step ahead of this process, not behind it. Do 29 we just -- how do we address that? Do we do a letter 30 recommendation, the letter to the main Board, or what 31 exactly would this recommended step be? 32 33 MS. DEATHERAGE: Thank you, Madame 34 Chair. You have two options. You are certainly 35 welcome to write a letter to the Board recommending 36 some changes in the policy and the process that would 37 make it more agreeable for the Councils and make them 38 feel more comfortable with their recommendations, or 39 you can put it in your annual report. We have a draft 40 in the book right now, and you are more than welcome at 41 this meeting to add that issue to the annual report. 42 43 Thank you. 44 45 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: And if I may, 46 Council, I would recommend we do both, to do the letter 47 and to add to our annual report. 48 49 MR. KOSO: Do you need a motion to that 50

Page 110 1 effect? Well, I'll make a motion that we add that to 2 the annual report. 3 4 MR. HOLMES: Second. 5 6 MR. SIMEONOFF: I'll second it. 7 8 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: We've got a 9 motion made and second. Question -- call for question. 10 11 MR. ROHRER: Call for the question. 12 13 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you. All 14 in favor signify by saying aye. 15 16 IN UNISON: Aye. 17 18 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Opposed, same 19 sign. 20 21 (No negative votes) 22 23 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Motion carried. 24 I don't know about any of you, but a break would be 25 nice. Thank you. 26 27 MR. KOSO: Are you sorry you brought 28 that up? 29 30 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: No. That's 31 good. 32 33 (Laughter) 34 35 MS. DEATHERAGE: (Indiscernible -- mic 36 off) different information from different people. And 37 I think that we need to be a little careful with that. 38 That doesn't mean that -- the process can still be 39 looked at and changed, but Kay Larson-Blair is hearing 40 different information. 41 42 MR. KOSO: Well, she didn't -- she told 43 you it wasn't finalized. They said it was information, 44 they voted this morning, and it was that they voted 45 against the project, so it wasn't nothing that came out 46 on paper yet. 47 48 REPORTER: Your mic. 49 50

Page 111 1 MS. DEATHERAGE: No, we're off record. 2 3 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. 15 4 minutes. 15 minutes. 5 6 (Off record) 7 8 (On record) 9 10 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. What 11 we're going to do is do the drawing for the book from 12 Sun'aq. 13 14 MR. KOSO: What if you don't have a 15 name in? 16 17 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: So you better 18 get your name and get it in there now if you want your 19 name in the drawing. 20 21 (General conversation, mics off) 22 23 (Cassie Whiteside wins book) 24 25 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Nice. Thank you 26 very much for doing that. Much appreciated. 27 28 (Off record discussion on where to 29 purchase book) 30 31 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: All right. 32 Thank you. Just maybe is there anybody on line that 33 has any comments at this time before we move on. 34 35 (No comments) 36 37 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: All right. The 38 next item on the agenda is -- are we at the annual 39 meeting, number D, annual..... 40 41 MS. DEATHERAGE: Non-rural. 42 43 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Oh, non-rural 44 determination. Call for proposals. 45 46 MS. DEATHERAGE: Thank you, Madame 47 Chair. Members of the Council. For the record my name 48 is Karen Deatherage. I'm with the Office of 49 Subsistence Management in Anchorage, and I'm here to 50

Page 112 1 provide you with a brief overview of the new call for 2 proposals for non-rural determinations in Federal 3 regulations. 4 5 The materials begin on Page 20 of your 6 meeting books, and there are copies on the back of the 7 room for people in the audience. This is not an action 8 item for the Council. As soon as everybody finds it, 9 I'll go ahead and proceed. But this call for proposals 10 is an information item for the Council. 11 12 I'd like to start with some history. 13 In January 2017 the Federal Subsistence Board adopted a 14 new policy on non-rural determination. That was 15 developed with input from all 10 Regional Advisory 16 Councils. We presented the final policy to you at your 17 winter 2017 meeting, about a year ago. It lays out the 18 requirements for submitting a proposal and a three-year 19 time line. Proposals submitted during the upcoming 20 call will be considered by the Federal Subsistence 21 Board in January 2021. 22 23 The call for proposals has not opened 24 yet, but should be published within the next couple of 25 months. 26 27 I want to draw your attention to the 28 flyer on Page 20 of your Council book, how to submit 29 proposals to change non-rural determinations. This 30 flyer includes a list of items a proposal must contain 31 to be accepted for consideration by the Board, and 32 information on where to submit a proposal. A form is 33 not required, but there are minimum requirements for 34 what you have to have in a proposal to change rural 35 determination. 36 37 The anticipated time line for this 38 process begins on Page 30 of your Council book. And in 39 between Page 20 and 30 is the actual policy which gets 40 down into the criteria needed by the way. But on Page 41 30 it talks about the time line. And what's important 42 about this is that the Councils will multiple 43 opportunities to provide recommendations and feedback 44 on proposals that affect your region. 45 46 During the fall meeting cycle in 2018 47 and then again once the analysis is complete during the 48 fall meeting cycle in 2020. The Board will then make 49 their determination in January 2021. This is a four- 50

Page 113 1 year cycle that begins concurrent with every other 2 fisheries regulatory cycle. So the next call for 3 proposals on regulatory changes to non-rural 4 determinations will not occur until the spring of 2022. 5 6 Again, this is not an action item for 7 the Council, but an update of where we are in the 8 process. We are expecting the Federal Register notice 9 to come out within the next couple of months for a 10 formal call for proposals for non-rural determination. 11 12 We thank you very much for your 13 attention, and I will try my best to answer any 14 questions that you have. 15 16 Thank you. 17 18 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Are there any 19 questions for Karen at this time. 20 21 (No comments) 22 23 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Hearing none, I 24 think we'll move on. 25 26 The next item on the agenda is to 27 approve the FY 2017 annual report. Karen. 28 29 MS. DEATHERAGE: Thank you, Madame 30 Chair. Again for the record this is Karen Deatherage 31 with the Office of Subsistence Management in Anchorage. 32 33 In your supplemental materials you will 34 find a draft annual report. My recommendation, if the 35 Chair approves, is that the Council take a few minutes 36 to review this draft annual report. This is an action 37 item for the Council today where you will need to do a 38 final approval of the report. You are welcome to add 39 items if needed, or edit or change any items that are 40 currently listed. 41 42 Thank you. 43 44 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. Council, 45 let's kind of take this in order here, and maybe just 46 go through this. 47 48 The first issue we had was in regards 49 to the staffing and retention in both wildlife refuges. 50

Page 114 1 I think if -- I know I read it. It looks fine to me 2 the way it's written. Does anybody have anything they 3 would like to change or add to that. 4 5 Pat. 6 7 MR. HOLMES: Madame Chairman. I would 8 like to add into the second paragraph on the Izembek 9 National Wildlife Refuge biologist, blah-blah-blah, and 10 it says they didn't have the position, and we're 11 expressing angst about that. I would like to add 12 somewhere in that paragraph that our Council was 13 assured by Geoff Haskett at I think it was our meeting 14 where we had the review on the environmental assessment 15 for Unimak Island, he gave us a commitment that caribou 16 surveys would be a priority for Fish and Wildlife 17 Service. And so since he's moved on, or even when he 18 was there, I think it's got forgotten, and so the 19 staffing and making sure that there's a plane there, we 20 received that assurance from the top of the heap, and I 21 think that we should go in and put an asterisk on it 22 and put it in bold, because there's no excuse for them 23 not to do the surveys, because they didn't have a 24 biologist. They've got 20 of them in the state that 25 could have hopped on a plane and flown down there and 26 gone and tried to do the surveys. 27 28 Thank you, Madame Chair. 29 30 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you, Pat. 31 Everybody in agreement? 32 33 (Council nods affirmatively) 34 35 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. The next 36 item would be issue No. 2, Council..... 37 38 MS. SKINNER: I had a question. 39 40 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Rebecca. 41 42 MS. SKINNER: Since we haven't had the 43 agency updates yet, I just wanted to make sure that all 44 of the vacancies here are still true and that none of 45 these positions have been filled for the Kodiak Refuge 46 as well as Izembek. If anybody can speak to that. 47 48 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Karen. 49 50

Page 115 1 MS. DEATHERAGE: Member Skinner, 2 through the Chair. My last update was that the 3 positions are in Washington, D.C., and that things are 4 being held up there largely because of the budget 5 issue, and so nothing is moving at this point. But I 6 know that Greg Risdahl had informed us that the 7 biologist position was a priority for Izembek and that 8 it was already completed and out of his hands, but 9 right now the positions are being held up in 10 Washington, D.C. 11 12 Thank you. 13 14 The same with the RIT position in 15 Kodiak, but they can speak to that tomorrow. 16 17 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you. 18 Rick. 19 20 MR. KOSO: Are you going to need a 21 motion on this approval of the annual report? 22 23 MS. DEATHERAGE: Probably after..... 24 25 MR. KOSO: Okay. 26 27 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. Issue No. 28 2, Council meetings in communities. Any comments or 29 changes in regard to the way this one is written. 30 Rebecca. 31 32 MS. SKINNER: On this one, the example 33 given for Unalaska Island was the surveys for 34 subsistence salmon. Can we also -- my understanding 35 was the McLees Lake project was a weir. Can we add a 36 reference to that as well, because I think the McLees 37 project is the one that actually scored higher, which 38 probably doesn't make any difference, because it's not 39 -- this letter won't get there until the funding is 40 decided, but it would make sense to me that both 41 projects for Unalaska be referenced. 42 43 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Is that okay 44 with everyone. 45 46 MR. HOLMES: Yeah. 47 48 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. Moving 49 on. Issue No. 3, emperor goose hunt season. 50

Page 116 1 Any comments or recommendations. 2 3 (No comments) 4 5 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: I have a 6 question. Maybe, Pat, you can help me. Is the issue 7 of the subsistence bird hunt for emperors -- I don't 8 think I see that addressed in this. Should we add that 9 to the section. 10 11 MS. DEATHERAGE: The what? 12 13 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: The changing of 14 the dates for the subsistence bird on emperors. 15 16 MR. HOLMES: Well, we have a 17 comment..... 18 19 REPORTER: Mic, please. 20 21 MR. HOLMES: Madame Chairman. We have 22 a comment in here that says that the Council is still 23 concerned for Kodiak Archipelago hunters who are unable 24 to take birds during the Federal subsistence season, 25 April 2nd to 31st, because emperor geese are not in the 26 area at this time. Some Council members are working 27 with the AMBCC on it, Coral, to seek a treaty change to 28 allow for a season to open earlier in the spring when 29 birds are in the area. So I that's covered. 30 31 I think the question that we want to 32 think about is to ask Rick and Chris about the 33 distribution of emperor geese in their area, because 34 this comment was driven by Kodiak, and I know the 35 distribution of those guys is different, depending on 36 the..... 37 38 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Yeah. And that 39 I thought included both the Aleutians and Kodiak, 40 because that's the same issue in our region. 41 42 MR. HOLMES: Right. So I think we 43 might want to, instead of saying, concern for Kodiak 44 Archipelago for, we should state for our Council's 45 hunters. And that would include the whole area. 46 47 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Coral. 48 49 MS. CHERNOFF: I would also like to see 50

Page 117 1 a correction made on that in that it says that they're 2 unable to take birds during the Federal subsistence 3 season of April 2nd to August 31st, because emperor 4 geese are not in the area at that time. Emperor geese 5 are in fact in the area at the time, they're just here 6 for a very limited amount of time. They leave 7 somewhere around the 22nd and the 24th of April almost 8 every year almost exactly by the 24th they're all gone, 9 but that's a misstatement of fact there that I'd like 10 to see changed. 11 12 MS. DEATHERAGE: I can fix that. 13 14 MS. CHERNOFF: So we have a very 15 limited season; it's not that we can't get them at all. 16 17 MR. HOLMES: Yeah. Madame Chair. 18 Coral's right, and it does depend on -- they usually 19 boogie out of Womens Bay on the 22nd, but it's 20 different on the west side of the Island, and in 21 different parts of our region. And so we need to maybe 22 word this in such a way that we're endorsing having a 23 broader season available for -- because basically the 24 season was laid out for Bristol Bay, northwest Alaska, 25 and we need to have it a broader time period in my mind 26 so that folks in our area only get just the same 27 opportunity to harvest as somebody would up at 28 Quinhagak or something. 29 30 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: So, Pat, do you 31 have a recommendation on the verbiage. 32 33 MR. HOLMES: Well, I missed a couple of 34 AMBCC meetings. Let's. Yeah, here's our lady 35 coordinator. Do you have an inking as to what dates 36 could meet or whole island, and then we can see if 37 they'd work for Rick at Adak and Chris at Unalaska, 38 because at least in my mind from the meetings I've gone 39 to with the AMBCC for years and our meetings, we've 40 been trying to get a broader -- give us a decent amount 41 of opportunity. And so if we've got a storm in April, 42 then, you know, folks just can't get at them. So time 43 range would be better to provide more opportunity, 44 because if it's opened April 2nd -- if we had it 45 earlier, that's a treaty thing, but I think it would be 46 important for us to ask to have it opened earlier for 47 Kodiak. 48 49 MS. CHERNOFF: So I'm an AMBCC co-chair 50

Page 118 1 with Melissa, so I could probably answer some of these 2 questions. 3 4 They did talk about it at the AMBCC 5 fall meeting. There's also issues in other areas about 6 the birds, when they come and go, when you're allowed 7 to hunt. There's issues about how many days they can 8 be hunted, and splitting up an egg season and a hunting 9 season. So there's all those sort of issues that 10 they're dealing with. 11 12 But I would recommend that perhaps we 13 have a statement like we would love to see a season 14 change, and we understand that AMBCC is working on 15 that, or they're talking about it, and maybe we would 16 just like to support them in their efforts. And when 17 they actually -- if they actually are able to work out 18 different dates, then we could support that when it 19 comes through. 20 21 That's just an idea. 22 23 MR. HOLMES: As a former bureaucrat in 24 critter management, you're much better off for a public 25 group to make your statement of what you'd like to 26 achieve rather than to leave it up in the air. And so 27 the problem on the treaty is it's set up to be April 28 2nd through August 31st, because April 2nd is when the 29 birds end up in western Alaska, but they've been here 30 in Kodiak a lot longer, and yet you're very correct, 31 they leave the 22nd. But what I'm trying to solicit 32 from our group is to make a reasonable guess with maybe 33 Kelly's help and yours as to a time that would give us 34 more potential. Because I don't think from talking to 35 the elders that I know that they really weren't doing 36 much as far as, you know -- because there are no eggs 37 in April from emperor geese. So that's not a question 38 here. The question for the 20 years I've been on the 39 Council and we've been arguing to try to get it open, 40 was the ability to hunt them when they're in the 41 greatest available numbers. And so that's what I would 42 ask you ladies for is when they're here in the greatest 43 numbers. 44 45 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you, Pat. 46 47 Let's go ahead and -- may I have your 48 name, please. 49 50

Page 119 1 MS. KRUEGER: Kelly Krueger, Sun'aq 2 Tribe of Kodiak. 3 4 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. Kelly and 5 then Rebecca. 6 7 MS. KRUEGER: Sure. So it's a good 8 concern, Pat, and that's been brought up at the 9 statewide meetings for the past few years. I think 10 our best bet is to take your recommendations back to 11 the AMBCC like Coral said, and tell them that the RAC 12 is concerned, and try to do something from there. 13 14 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Rebecca. 15 16 MS. SKINNER: Yeah. And I guess that's 17 along the lines of what I was going to say. Under the 18 AMBCC, each region has an advisory council, and my 19 understanding is even for this RAC we have at least two 20 advisory councils, because the Aleutians has their own 21 advisory council with your own representative. And my 22 preference would be the issues of dates really needs to 23 go through those regional councils that report up to 24 the AMBCC, partly because for people in Kodiak, we can 25 speak to Kodiak, but I don't want to speak for the 26 community that's farther out west. I don't know if 27 your dates would be the same. And because there is an 28 existing process again with these regional advisory 29 bodies that report up and give input into the AMBCC, I 30 think that details, you know, such as specific dates 31 and that kind of a thing should really stay within that 32 process. But from the perspective of this Council, I'm 33 perfectly comfortable saying that we do recognize that 34 there is a problem with the seasons, just because the 35 birds aren't in the area, and that we are comfortable 36 with more specific recommendations percolating up 37 through the regional advisory bodies under the AMBCC. 38 That would be my preferred approach, mainly because 39 again there's an existing system in place to collect 40 that information. 41 42 Thanks. 43 44 MR. HOLMES: Well, my question is still 45 valid, when are they here in the greatest abundance. 46 Because I go to as many AMBCC meetings as I can, and 47 granted I'm not a tribal person, but I certainly have 48 been advocating for folks here for decades, and this 49 has been a big problem, at least in my mind, when do 50

Page 120 1 they start showing up in Womens Bay as a point of 2 reference. December. And then I, you know, I don't 3 see any problem with our group passing on that thought 4 or recommendation to see if they can achieve an earlier 5 opening, because in talking to -- I'm sorry, the fellow 6 that worked for the State that challenged the whole 7 survey program from emperor geese. Anyway you're 8 talking process, I'm talking political strategy. And I 9 think if we were to say 1st of December -- oh, okay. 10 The point I was getting to was that they set the treaty 11 up for April 2nd, because that's the earliest date they 12 show up in Bristol Bay. And so what we need is to have 13 a little flexibility for when they show up here the 14 earliest in Kodiak, because any time after the 2nd the 15 numbers are in my mind starting to drop, but usually by 16 the 22nd they're all gone. And I was hoping that 17 Ronnie Lind could call in from Karluk and Melissa. So 18 what I'm searching for is trying for a date. And we 19 have not any direct input, but I know AMBCC does listen 20 to our Council. 21 22 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. Can I 23 make a comment real fast here. So when you look at the 24 recommendation and then the issue here, but the issue 25 falls not only for the Kodiak and/or Aleutians on this. 26 I mean, it appears it's other areas also. So maybe the 27 issue isn't so much as being specific about the dates 28 for a certain region; it's the issue is that it needs 29 to go back to Migratory Birds or the powers to be to 30 take a closer look at that and recognize the concerns 31 from, in this case the Kodiak/Aleutian Council. 32 Because all we can do is recommend. 33 34 MR. HOLMES: I yield the floor to the 35 Chernoff and Skinner collection -- or consortium. 36 37 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. Go ahead. 38 39 MS KRUEGER: This is Kelly Krueger 40 again. We're going to be holding our spring AMBCC 41 meeting next month, and then Coral will be attending 42 the statewide meeting, so this is concerns that we can 43 bring to both of those meetings. 44 45 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you. So, 46 Karen, we'll just kind of reword that, rephrase it, and 47 then the recommendation is basically the same. 48 49 MS. DEATHERAGE: Madame Chair. Yeah. 50

Page 121 1 I have it to rephrase to reflect the need for a broader 2 season and also for the communities that are currently 3 under the Kodiak/Aleutian Council region, to include 4 that, versus focusing specifically on the Archipelago. 5 6 Thanks. 7 8 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank. Pat, 9 that's good? 10 11 MR. HOLMES: Yeah, that's swell. 12 13 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. 14 15 Coral. 16 17 MS. CHERNOFF: I have one more comment. 18 I seem to recall somewhere at a meeting, it might have 19 been the AMBCC fall meeting, that the issue came up of 20 perhaps taking them off the migratory bird list and 21 dealing with them as -- because they basically stay in 22 Alaska. And so I don't know if that's going to move 23 forward. I remember it being discussed. And I think 24 that was at the AMBCC. I'd have to check my notes. If 25 I check my notes, I'll get back to you, and then I'll 26 bring it up at the next AMBCC meeting. 27 28 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you. 29 30 Pat. 31 32 MR. HOLMES: I think that they do 33 basically stay in Alaska, but some of them go to 34 Siberia, and that's why it's in a migratory thing. 35 It's not north and south, but east and west. I'd love 36 to ignore that and just call it an Alaskan problem if 37 we could, but I don't know. 38 39 MS. CHERNOFF: Or maybe now that you 40 mention that, maybe taking it off the flyway's radar. 41 42 MR. HOLMES: Yeah, that would be a 43 flyway (indiscernible -- mic off). 44 45 MS. CHERNOFF: Yeah. Yeah. 46 47 MR. HOLMES: That would be swell. 48 49 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. 50

Page 122 1 MR. HOLMES: Did you want to put that 2 in, off the flyway? 3 4 MS. CHERNOFF: No. 5 6 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. Having 7 sidebars here with the mics off. 8 9 Issue No. 4, outreach for tribal/ANCSA 10 corporation consultation. Is there any more discussion 11 or additions or comments to be added to Issue No. 4. 12 13 (No comments) 14 15 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: I think it was 16 fairly well written on that one. 17 18 Issue No. 5, training for new Council 19 members. Any recommendation or changes to No. 5. 20 21 (No comments) 22 23 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Issue No. 6, sea 24 otter predation on shellfish. Any Council 25 recommendations or changes on No. 6. 26 27 MS. SKINNER: Madame Chair. 28 29 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Rebecca. 30 31 MS. SKINNER: Is it possible that we 32 could finish going through this report, but hold off 33 approving it until after -- because I know we have some 34 sea otter presentations scheduled, and maybe we'll hear 35 information that impacts some of these other areas. 36 But that would be my only request is that specifically 37 we hold off on approving the report until after we hear 38 the sea otter presentations, because we do have quite a 39 lengthy sea otter comment in this letter. 40 41 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Can do that. 42 The other item I think would be the discussion or 43 addition of the process that we discussed earlier, to 44 add that in there. And so I'm not putting any pressure 45 on you, Karen, but if we're able to try to get some of 46 this, so maybe prior to us adjourning tomorrow, just go 47 through this one more time, and then we can approve it 48 formally. 49 50

Page 123 1 MS. CHERNOFF: Yeah, that would nice. 2 Yeah. 3 4 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Yeah. Okay. 5 6 MS. DEATHERAGE: Thank you, Madame 7 Chair. I should be able to get this together and I can 8 put it on the screen tomorrow for the Council's review. 9 10 Thank you. 11 12 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you. All 13 right. With that -- I'm going to get my hand slapped 14 over here. We will move on. 15 16 MS. CHERNOFF: I'd like to -- on the 17 sea otter predation, I would just like to, if we could 18 remove that do not meet the ambiguous handicraft 19 requirements. I'm not sure what the ambiguous 20 handicraft requirements are. But just have it say, few 21 people are eligible to hunt sea otters, or do not meet 22 the handicraft requirements. 23 24 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: I guess, Coral, 25 I'm a little confused, because I think Rebecca asked 26 that we hold off on the sea otters until after the 27 report. 28 29 MS. CHERNOFF: Oh, I thought she asked 30 to hold off on the whole thing. 31 32 MS. SKINNER: Yes, I'm sorry. 33 34 MS. CHERNOFF: Voting on the whole 35 thing. 36 37 MS. SKINNER: Yeah, to clarify..... 38 39 MS. CHERNOFF: To continue going 40 through it. 41 42 MS. SKINNER: Yeah. I meant let's 43 continue going through it, just not vote to approve it 44 until later in the meeting. Sorry. 45 46 MR. HOLMES: Madame Chair. 47 48 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Sorry. Pat. 49 50

Page 124 1 MR. HOLMES: We had talked a little 2 while ago about including on this list, on this letter, 3 a reference about McLees Lake and our concerns about 4 the sockeye and the salmon returns to Unalaska Island. 5 And what their strait things are there, and the need of 6 that monitoring, so probably need to plug in a sentence 7 in there on the end. 8 9 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: And I think that 10 I asked Karen to address that. 11 12 MR. HOLMES: Okay. Sorry. 13 14 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: And she'll put 15 it in the draft for tomorrow. 16 17 MR. HOLMES: Thank you. 18 19 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: In regard to the 20 process. 21 22 And then, Coral, can you -- because I 23 didn't quite catch what you were talking, can you 24 repeat that, please. 25 26 MS. CHERNOFF: Yes. So in the Issue 27 No. 6, under sea otter predation on shell fish, in 28 there it states that few people are eligible to hunt 29 sea otters or do not meet the ambiguous handicraft 30 requirements. And I'd like to just remove that word 31 ambiguous. I'm not sure what it means there, because 32 the requirements are the requirements; they're not 33 really ambiguous. 34 35 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. Thank 36 you. 37 38 MS. SKINNER: Some people don't know 39 what constitutes handicrafts. That's the issue. 40 41 MS. CHERNOFF: But if you're doing it, 42 you know. 43 44 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. So with 45 that, we'll come back to this, the final draft, 46 tomorrow to approve prior to adjournment. 47 48 Next item on the agenda is Charter, 49 Secretarial order update. Karen. 50

Page 125 1 MS. DEATHERAGE: Thank you, Madame 2 Chair. This is Karen Deatherage with the Office of 3 Subsistence Management out of Anchorage. 4 5 On Page 63 is a copy of the 6 Kodiak/Aleutians Subsistence Regional Advisory Council 7 Charter. On Page 64 under letter h, the Office of 8 Subsistence Management and the Federal Subsistence 9 Management Program received Secretarial Order 3347 and 10 3356 to include the items listed under letter h in the 11 Council's charter. 12 13 I'd like to note that this was not -- 14 because it's a Secretarial order, it was not put forth 15 for the Councils to approve this change to their 16 charter; it was required that we include it. 17 18 Thank you. 19 20 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: So at this 21 point, Karen, is this just here for our information, or 22 do we need to take action on it. 23 24 MS. DEATHERAGE: Thank you, Madame 25 Chair. This is just here for your information, because 26 it has been added to the charter. 27 28 Thank you. 29 30 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. Is there 31 any comments or questions for Karen. 32 33 Rebecca. 34 35 MS. SKINNER: Karen, are there any -- I 36 guess I'll say any guidance or analysis or anything 37 either out of OSM or have other Councils already 38 discussed this and -- I mean, is there any feedback, 39 interpretations, guidance, really anything related to 40 these new provisions that we could maybe take a look at 41 later. 42 43 MS. DEATHERAGE: Member Skinner through 44 the Chair. We don't have any recommendations at this 45 time, but when the charter does come up for renewal, 46 the Council certainly will have an opportunity to edit 47 or make changes to the charter; however, given that 48 it's a Secretarial order, these will likely be passed 49 along as concerns versus changes that will be accepted 50

Page 126 1 by the Secretary's office in Washington. 2 3 Thank you. 4 5 MS. SKINNER: Yeah. So to follow up, 6 since this is adding a new set of things that this 7 Council can make recommendations on, I guess what I was 8 looking for, if there had been any guidance or 9 commentary on -- I mean, I can read the words there on 10 the page, but maybe additional context about what the 11 -- how those things might look in the context of RACs. 12 But I'm guessing it's so new at this point that there 13 probably hasn't been a lot of discussion or feedback. 14 15 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Karen. 16 17 MS. DEATHERAGE: Thank you. Member 18 Skinner, through the Chair. That is correct. There 19 has not been a lot of feedback. This has actually 20 happened rather quickly, and so we put it in as we were 21 instructed to do. 22 23 Thank you. 24 25 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Sam. 26 27 I'm sorry, Pat. 28 29 MS. PETRIVELLI: This is Pat Petrivelli 30 again. And I was in on a little bit of the discussion, 31 and Ken Lord, the solicitor, looked at this, and the 32 other part is on Page 63 under descriptions of duties, 33 because that header says Council duties and 34 responsibilities where applicable are as follows. So I 35 think he thought that the word applicable -- you know, 36 I mean, the main duties of the Council where applicable 37 are ANILCA related, because that's the law authorizing 38 all the Advisory Councils. And these duties were just 39 where applicable. And he didn't see that it would come 40 up very often, that it would be applicable, the two 41 additions. But there was the order to insert them in 42 all FACA committees that it's necessary the Secretary 43 felt to do that. But the important word is where 44 applicable. And it's uncertain at this time when any 45 of those duties will come up. 46 47 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you, Pat. 48 49 Sam. 50

Page 127 1 MR. ROHRER: Through the Chair. So H 2 is new. Was I new as well, or did I just never notice 3 I? I was new as well, right? I just noticed, it makes 4 me smile, if you look under I, it says, we're to 5 provide recommendations for identifying regulations for 6 repeal, replacement or for modification, considering at 7 a minimum, those regulations that, and look down to 8 number 5, sufficient transparent to meet the standard 9 reproducibility, and a couple other things. But what 10 just is interesting to me is our big fight a couple 11 years ago against proposed regulations that we were so 12 unhappy about. This would have given us a great avenue 13 to comment on them -- to have commented on them. So 14 we'll have to remember this for the future. 15 16 That's all. 17 18 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you. Good 19 point. Anybody else have any comments. Come on, 20 Mitch. 21 22 (No comments) 23 24 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. So I 25 guess we can move on. At this time it's going on four, 26 so I think we will start on agency report. Time limit 27 is 15 minutes unless approved in advance. I'm not too 28 worried about that. 29 30 So we'll start with tribal governments. 31 Are there any tribal governments. We have Sun'aq Tribe 32 at this point, and then we'll go to anyone on line if 33 there is. 34 35 MS. KRUEGER: This is Kelly Krueger, 36 Sun'aq Tribe of Kodiak. 37 38 While he's setting that up, I'll just 39 give another plug for the community's potluck tonight. 40 It's at 6:00 p.m. over at the Fish Tech Center, also 41 known as the Kodiak Seafood and Marine Science Center 42 on Near Island. It starts at 6:00 p.m. We'll have 43 lots of good food. I've already heard of some of the 44 dishes that are going to be there, and it's going to be 45 great. So come on over. We're going to have a shuttle 46 from the Best Western. If you're in need of the 47 shuttle, come talk to me. We're thinking every half an 48 hour, but we're not sure how many people are going to 49 be there, and if you just want to give me a rough 50

Page 128 1 estimate of what time you're wanting to head over 2 there. It's the big Sun'aq van, white van with our 3 logo on the side, so it's hard to miss. 4 5 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Well, if it's 6 still blowing out, there may be any number of us that 7 would rather ride. 8 9 MS. KRUEGER: Yeah. 10 11 MS. SKINNER: If it's headwinds or 12 tailwinds. 13 14 (Laughter) 15 16 MR. KOSO: Is that across the bridge in 17 that building it was last year? 18 19 MS. KRUEGER: The same place, yeah. 20 21 MR. KOSO: Thank you. 22 23 MS. KRUEGER: There we go. Thank you. 24 All right. If you like to follow along, I have two 25 pages in this booklet, it's on Page 43. The same 26 slides are in here, but this is just a bigger version 27 if you want to follow along. 28 29 So like I said, my name is Kelly 30 Krueger. I'm with Sun'aq Tribe of Kodiak, the 31 biologist. And this is just a status report on the 32 invasive crayfish that are in Buskin watershed. 33 34 Does the other USB have to be in there? 35 36 UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: No. 37 38 MS. DEATHERAGE: Yes, it does. For the 39 clicker to work, you have to have that in there. 40 41 (Pause -- setting up clicker) 42 43 MS. KRUEGER: All right. There we go. 44 All right. So just a background, signal crayfish are 45 native to the Pacific Northwest. On that map you can 46 see they're in Oregon, Washington, and in Idaho. And 47 they've been introduced to states south of that, 48 California, Utah and Nevada. And so that's their range 49 in the United States. 50

Page 129 1 They prefer really fresh water and can 2 handle brackish water with very cold temperatures. And 3 there's research out there that says they can tolerate 4 a pretty broad salinity range, even for a few days in 5 estuaries. But they do prefer the same areas that are 6 utilized by salmon and trout, so rocky bottom areas 7 with some swift moving water, lots of oxygen. And they 8 can burrow extensively into stream banks, which can 9 cause increased erosion and decreased light 10 penetration. 11 12 That photo on the bottom is a signal 13 crayfish burrow that is in Buskin Lake that was 14 photographed two year ago. 15 16 So here is one up close and personal, 17 and the way you identify signal crayfish is they have 18 this blue-brownish color. They have that -- at the 19 joint of their claws, they have that little white area, 20 and if you shine a light on them at night, it reflects, 21 so giving the name the signal crayfish. And they also 22 have very smooth and round claws as opposed to some 23 other crayfish that you might have seen from crayfish 24 boils or something like that, have much longer and 25 skinnier claws. 26 27 Their diet and life history. They 28 really eat a wide variety of things. They can eat 29 algae, benthic insects, some way (ph) debris. They 30 might also feed on some fish eggs and larger fish, 31 which is one of the reasons why we're concerned about 32 the Buskin and the subsistence resources. 33 34 They will mate and lay their eggs in 35 October, and normally it's about 200 to 400 eggs. And 36 then those eggs will hatch in the following spring and 37 stay with their mother for three molting cycles, and 38 then they'll be free from their mother and live 39 independently. 40 41 And the big thing about crayfish is 42 they can live as long as 20 years, which is pretty 43 significant for a freshwater crustacean. 44 45 That picture on the top is kind of 46 blurry, but you can see it's a bunch of small crayfish 47 still attached to their mother. This was in Buskin in 48 July of 2016. And then that bottom picture on the 49 glove you can see on the one finger is a very tiny 50

Page 130 1 juvenile crayfish, probably just recently separated 2 from the mother within several weeks or even a week or 3 so. So that's how small we've seen them in Buskin. 4 5 So this is pretty busy, but this is on 6 Page 44 in your booklet. This is a time line that we 7 put together of signal crayfish in Buskin. So in 2002 8 they were first documented in Buskin watershed. 9 Somebody found a white carapace, an exoskeleton that 10 was shed, and it was pretty large, probably seven or 11 eight inches. That was the first time that they were 12 found in the Buskin watershed. 13 14 And then in about 2004 Fish and Game 15 set some traps, but they didn't catch any crayfish. 16 And a little bit later in 2011/12 the Fish and Game 17 invasive species program set some traps and they didn't 18 capture any crayfish; however, one was captured just 19 below the Buskin weir. It washed into the weir dead, 20 so that was the first time they had found one close to 21 the weir. And then the following year they set some 22 more traps, but no crayfish were captured. 23 24 Kodiak Soil and Water Conservation 25 District became concerned about the issue, and they 26 started setting some traps, and they actually confirmed 27 the signal crayfish presence. And then in 2015 they 28 captured a gravid female, a female with eggs, and that 29 was pretty significant, because it indicated the 30 population was breeding. 31 32 And then in 2016 we started working 33 with Kodiak Soil and Water Conservation District. We 34 got a grant from the Bureau of Indian Affairs to do 35 some electrofishing and kick seining. 36 37 And for those of you who don't know 38 what electrofishing is, it's basically a shocking unit 39 that has an anode, a cathode. You put it into the 40 water. It shocks whatever's in the water. And then 41 for the crayfish, they kind of flip on their side, and 42 you're able to see the white of their bellies, and you 43 can scoop them up before they become unstunned again. 44 45 And kick seining is just a small one- 46 meter net that you put into the water, and the idea is 47 somebody upstream kicks the sediment and other things 48 downstream, and you capture whatever is in that small 49 area of water. 50

Page 131 1 So we wrote this grant, because those 2 techniques have been successful other places and hadn't 3 been used in the watershed before, and we were curious 4 to see how they worked compared to just the trapping 5 efforts that had occurred. 6 7 And from this year we hired a two- 8 person crew. They surveyed the entire watershed. They 9 walked the whole thing, about 11 miles. They did about 10 a mile per week, flipping over all the rocks, looking 11 at the habitat, and in total we captured 422 crayfish. 12 And I'll have a breakdown of the different methods and 13 how many we captured in the upcoming slides. 14 15 And then in 2017 we continued this 16 work. We had some funding left over. We didn't hire a 17 crew and mainly we spent our time this past summer 18 electrofishing. And from those efforts we captured 708 19 crayfish. 20 21 And in August this year we were awarded 22 a tribal wildlife grant which will be setting signal 23 crayfish population dynamics. We're pretty excited 24 about that. Tom mentioned earlier that we will be 25 hiring a three-person crew to do some snorkeling and 26 other work which I'll talk about in a little bit a 27 well. And that field work will start this summer, and 28 it will end in 2020. In May of 2020. 29 30 So our 2016 and 2017 results. 2016, we 31 didn't capture many from the kick seine. Actually we 32 didn't capture any at all. It's more efficient in 33 slower moving water, which is more shallow. But we 34 tried that; it wasn't effective. Electrofishing was 35 extremely effective. We captured quite a few using 36 that method, 169. It's that blue color on the left pie 37 chart there. We also had a pretty good working 38 relationship with members of the public who have been 39 snorkeling for crayfish in Buskin. People had been 40 snorkeling and scuba diving, and so we were able to 41 sample 195 of those crayfish before the people took 42 them home to eat them. And then the 14, that little 43 blue is dipnetting, hand capture, jut efforts on our 44 own. So we captured 422, and 44 of those, that lighter 45 blue color on the top left, was with our collaboration 46 with Kodiak Soil and Water District. 47 48 And then this past year, like I said, 49 we didn't have the full-time crew, but we did 50

Page 132 1 electrofishing quite a bit, and you can see that we 2 captured 436 using that method. It was just two days, 3 a wide variety of age classes that I'll have in the 4 next slide I believe. And then, let's see, the other 5 numbers. Dipnetting, hand capture, we had some good 6 youth involvement this past summer. We worked with the 7 Youth Conservation Corp and with salmon campers, and 8 then just did some capture of our own for some 9 classroom activities. And so this year in total we had 10 708 that were captured, so almost double from last year 11 and with much less effort. 12 13 So this was the size classes and the 14 sex ratio. The crayfish were larger last year. The 15 mean total length was three and a half inches. Our 16 largest specimen was almost eight inches and the 17 smallest one was less than a half an inch. We did 18 capture more females than males last year. 193 females 19 and 159 males, 63 unknowns which were juveniles. It's 20 just you can't tell when they're that small. 21 22 And then this year, like I said, they 23 were smaller. The mean total length was 2.6 inches. 24 The largest one captured was 7.3 inches, and the 25 smallest one was 6. This year was the opposite. It 26 was actually more males captured than females. I'm not 27 sure what that means. That's just the monitoring data 28 that we've colleted. With 309 females, 382 males, and 29 17 unknown juveniles. 30 31 And that picture on the right is just 32 one of the signal crayfish that we captured. You can 33 see the colors on them are quite beautiful actually. 34 And just one of our crew member sampling last year. 35 36 So here's some pictures of us doing our 37 field work. The top left was actually that kick seine 38 that we utilized, and it wasn't effective, but you can 39 see Tonya Lee on the right. She was our bear guard. 40 And Annie Lumin was our technician. 41 42 And then the top right, that was 43 electrofishing. We'd have one to two of those backpack 44 units, and then several people scooping the crayfish up 45 whenever we spotted them. 46 47 And then the bottom left, that a member 48 of the public snorkeling for crayfish. It's a very 49 efficient method if you're good at it. It's pretty 50

Page 133 1 time consuming, but it's a good way to get some of the 2 bigger ones out of there. 3 4 And then the bottom middle one is 5 working with Kodiak Soil and Water Conservation 6 District with their minnow traps. They were baiting 7 them with herring and then letting them soak over night 8 and seeing what was caught the next day. 9 10 And the bottom right is our natural 11 resources intern, Mandy Cox, from last year, measuring 12 some crayfish back in the office. 13 14 Public outreach was a huge part of this 15 project. We posted the signs on the right at the main 16 access points of Buskin, and we were asking people to 17 please contact us if they are finding crayfish, or if 18 they have any information. We posted this information 19 and a video actually that was made by Dave Caplin, our 20 technician, from 2016 on Facebook, our website, and on 21 other social media. And we did a bunch of educational 22 outreach, both at the welcome aboard event for the 23 Coast Guard base, we thought that was an important 24 venue to get the work out and ask people to contact us 25 if they have any information, and just to let them know 26 that crayfish are invasive to Kodiak. 27 28 And we also went to St. Mary's 29 kindergarten class, and like I said, we taught salmon 30 camp classes this year about invasive species, and we 31 took the kids out there and they helped us catch 32 crayfish, which was a lot of fund, and the Youth 33 Conservation Corps through Fish and Wildlife Service. 34 So we got a lot of kids out there. And we also did two 35 crayfish dissections in the classrooms this year in the 36 third and fourth grade at Peterson, and the kids loved 37 it. They got really into it. It was pretty fun. 38 39 We've also been interviewed by KMXT and 40 the radio stations about crayfish, so we've really just 41 been trying to get the word out there about why this is 42 an issue and what we can do to prevent more invasive 43 species and the spread of signal crayfish on Kodiak. 44 45 So our future work, like I mentioned 46 earlier, we got a tribal wildlife grant through U.S. 47 Fish and Wildlife Service. It's a two and a half year 48 grant and the proposal is focusing on the population 49 dynamics of signal crayfish. And specifically we're 50

Page 134 1 focusing on learning more about the diet, movement, and 2 distribution of the crayfish in Buskin. We're going to 3 be collecting whole signal crayfish and doing some 4 stable isotope analyses on them to figure out if they 5 are indeed eating salmon eggs and juvenile salmon, or 6 if they more of a plant-based diet. 7 8 We're going to be tagging signal 9 crayfish in the mid summer and early fall of next year 10 to see where they're moving seasonally, if they're 11 moving up to the salmon reds to eat the decomposing 12 salmon or what they're doing in the watershed. We're 13 not really sure how far they're moving and where 14 they're moving to. 15 16 And we're also going to be looking at 17 the distribution, and we're going to have snorkeling 18 transects. That bottom right picture. Snorkeling 19 transects all along Buskin and that's what we're going 20 to be doing with the crew that we hire. They're going 21 to be snorkeling out and then parallel to the lake and 22 noting how many signal crayfish are within a certain 23 area, removing what they find, and then we'll see if 24 the population is decreasing, increasing, or what it's 25 doing. 26 27 We just added another component to the 28 study to figure out what the abundance is, or an 29 estimated abundance through a mark/recapture study. 30 There's these things called VIE tags. They're visible 31 implant elastomer tags that you can inject into the 32 crayfish, and it's kind of a silicone, pliable 33 silicone, that is colored, and so you can mark them, 34 release them, and then when you recapture them, you can 35 see if they still have this tag. So it's going to be 36 an interesting way to figure out an estimated abundance 37 of the population size. So we're pretty excited about 38 that. 39 40 The field work is supposed to start in 41 April/May and, like I said, it's going to -- the 42 project will be done in May of 2020. 43 44 So what can you do. Please report 45 crayfish if you find them when you're out there with 46 your family, friends, anybody. Report them to us, 47 please, and also to the Kodiak Soil and Water 48 Conservation District. Fish and Game just put out this 49 online invasive species reporting tool, which is very 50

Page 135 1 help, and that's another way to report them. 2 3 And catch crayfish if you're interested 4 in eating them. They're pretty good. Snorkeling or 5 hand capture works pretty well. 6 7 And just one other thing is a lot of 8 people are leaving derelict gear out there, which is 9 unfortunate. That picture on the right is a water 10 bottle that looks like an elementary science project. 11 There's a Dolly Varden head in the middle. And it's 12 just not a good thing to have gear out there. And so 13 we just are trying to keep it a clean environment for 14 everyone, and especially since Buskin Lake is the Coast 15 Guard drinking water supply. 16 17 We have lots of acknowledgments. We've 18 had numerous volunteers, and we'd like to thank 19 everybody. And we've had really good relationships 20 with Fish and Game, Kodiak Soil and Water Conservation 21 District. U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service has loaned us 22 equipment, so we'd like to thank them, too. And to 23 thank our funders, the BIA Invasive Species Program, 24 and U.S. Fish and Wildlife Tribal Wildlife grant. 25 26 So with that, thank you, and I'll take 27 any questions. 28 29 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Do we have any 30 questions. 31 32 Pat. 33 34 MR. HOLMES: Yeah. Kelly, have you -- 35 are you folks looking at the distribution of these 36 critters, like the river versus the lake, and then in 37 the lake the spawning gravel up at the head of the lake 38 in August. Have you seen more of them in the spawning 39 gravel than in the river, or any kind of general 40 feelings yet on distribution. 41 42 MS. KRUEGER: So far our work has only 43 concentrated on that southeast corner of the lake where 44 we know they're concentrated. But with this upcoming 45 work we're going to be doing those transect surveys 46 around the whole lake, so we'll get a much better idea 47 of where they are versus where the salmon are spawning. 48 49 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Rebecca. 50

Page 136 1 MS. SKINNER: Did you list a specific 2 number of days that you did the electrofishing? Did 3 you say two days? 4 5 MS. KRUEGER: Two days this year, yep. 6 And then we did two weekends last year. So catch per 7 sampling effort was much higher this year. Well, it 8 was lower, but we caught much more. So whether that 9 means the population is increasing or not, we're not 10 sure, but we caught much more this year with fewer 11 days. 12 13 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Coral. 14 15 MS. CHERNOFF: And so far with 16 everything you've caught, have they been to the lab yet 17 and have they tested stomach content, or it was all 18 measured and..... 19 20 MS. KRUEGER: Yeah. So the past two 21 years we've just been doing measurements, but we'll be 22 sending them off to the lab this summer to figure out 23 what they're eating. 24 25 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Pat. 26 27 MR. HOLMES: I was wondering on -- you 28 noted a difference in your capture of females at 29 different times. Are you keeping track of the time of 30 the year? Because I did a crayfish -- well, anyway, 31 what have you learned on time of the year. 32 33 MS. KRUEGER: We've kept track of time 34 of the year, but we haven't seen any kind of 35 connections I guess with that. I can look more deeply 36 into that though, because that's interesting. 37 38 MR. HOLMES: Yeah. I recall about 45, 39 50 years ago I did a crayfish project in grad school, 40 and it seemed to me that as the females were breeding 41 and setting their eggs that they were moving inshore 42 into the shallower waters. And it might be something 43 to look for. Of course, here it might be just the 44 opposite, but..... 45 46 MS. KRUEGER: Yeah, I guess we'll 47 figure it out next year. That's interesting. 48 49 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Coral. 50

Page 137 1 MS. CHERNOFF: Kelly, did you guys 2 unscientifically check the stomach content? 3 4 MS. KRUEGER: No. But we will. We 5 should try to do that, too, just to see if there's any 6 small fish that you can actually see in their stomachs. 7 8 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Antone. 9 10 MR. SHELIKOFF: Thank you, Madame 11 Chair. I have two questions. 12 13 Where -- I mean, since the crayfish are 14 invasive, they're not from here. Where are they from 15 then? 16 17 MS. KRUEGER: They're from the Pacific 18 Northwest, Oregon, Washington and Idaho. And they're 19 only in Kodiak. They're not anywhere else in Alaska. 20 They're only in the Buskin watershed. 21 22 MR. SHELIKOFF: How did they get here? 23 24 MS. KRUEGER: That's the million dollar 25 question. We don't know. Yeah, it could have been 26 somebody's pet, it could have been a classroom, it 27 could have been somebody having a crayfish boil. 28 Technically it's illegal to ship live crayfish up to 29 Alaska, but there's still companies that can do that, 30 and they are alive, so somebody could have just let two 31 of them go and now the population is what it is. 32 33 MR. SIMEONOFF: Are they edible? 34 35 MS. KRUEGER: Yeah, they are. They're 36 good. I've eaten them. 37 38 MR. SIMEONOFF: Are you trying to 39 eradicate them? 40 41 MS. KRUEGER: So as a tribe, we can't 42 make any decision like that. We can just monitor them 43 and then ultimately it will be up to the management 44 bodies to decide what to do. Right now we're just 45 researching them. 46 47 MR. SIMEONOFF: It's a pretty important 48 salmon lake. 49 50

Page 138 1 MR. KRUEGER: It is, yeah. 2 3 MR. SIMEONOFF: But it's got crayfish 4 that are destroying salmon, I would say eradicate them. 5 Feed them to the people. Let the people harvest them. 6 7 MS. KRUEGER: Uh-huh. Yeah, lots of 8 people are harvesting them. And you can get a pretty 9 decent bucket of crayfish from snorkeling just within a 10 few hours. 11 12 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Coral. 13 14 MS. CHERNOFF: I would just really like 15 to express my deepest thanks to Sun'aq Tribe. I know 16 there's been concern, or actually mention of crayfish 17 for quite a few years, and we really thank Sun'aq for 18 taking this on. I think it's extremely important. And 19 I'm happy that you guys are doing this. So thank you. 20 21 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Pat. 22 23 MR. HOLMES: Madame Chair. Spinning 24 off of what everybody's said, I think it would also be 25 a good item for us to put in our little letter of 26 concern, because Buskin Lake is Federal waters, on the 27 potential impacts of this. 28 29 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Good idea, Pat. 30 Any other comments. You got one. Comment. 31 32 MR. LANCE: Thank you. Tom Lance, 33 Sun'aq Tribe. 34 35 If I might add something. We tried to 36 apply for a BIA..... 37 38 MS. KRUEGER: Invasive species. 39 40 MR. LANCE: Invasive species grant, 41 yeah. And they told us that because it's not a Federal 42 trust resource, Buskin Lake is not a Federal trust 43 resource, even though there's a Federal red weir there, 44 that we would not qualify. And we tried to argue the 45 point that the previous year they actually gave us 46 money to hire the interns as a trust resource concern, 47 but yet this year they said, no, we would not qualify, 48 even though it's Federal property, even though it's 49 the most important subsistence body of water in the 50

Page 139 1 entire western Gulf and out the Aleutians per capita 2 speaking. So I would like to ask that you make a 3 recommendation to add to the letter that Buskin Lake or 4 the Buskin watershed, the Federal land, it should be 5 treated as a subsistence resource or a trust resource 6 for planning purposes for BIA when they look at 7 allocation of effort, especially when it comes to, you 8 know, invasive species. 9 10 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Yeah. Pat, want 11 to add that to your comments. 12 13 I also want to question, Pat, do you 14 have any knowledge of why they would have told them 15 that? 16 17 MS. PETRIVELLI: Rosalee Debenham would 18 probably handle all those invasive species grants, and 19 she works out of Juneau. And in Juneau there's a 20 natural resources department, but technically trust 21 resources, like she would have said, are usually on 22 reservations where there's tribal lands. And the only 23 trust lands in Alaska are Metlakatla Reservation, and 24 then the one acre that moved into trust in Craig. And 25 so it could be that they got away with doing something 26 before, and someone looked at the regulations closer, 27 you know. So I guess in that -- I could say that we -- 28 Dr. Glen Chen hands out subsistence resource grants. 29 And that could be another -- it doesn't have to be a 30 trust resource. It could just be a subsistence 31 resource, but that source of funding is in question 32 this year. And could be that as the funding gets 33 declining, it might be the requirements get tighter or 34 are watched more. But trust resources are generally on 35 reservation lands. 36 37 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Thank you. That 38 makes sense then. But I think it's important we do add 39 it to our letter. 40 41 MS. KRUEGER: Thank you. 42 43 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Good report. 44 45 Are there any other tribal governments 46 on line that would like to make any comments or report 47 at this time. 48 49 (No comments) 50

Page 140 1 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Any Native 2 organizations and village corporations. 3 4 (No comments) 5 6 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Regional 7 corporations. 8 9 (No comments) 10 11 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. I think 12 we can probably move on. We have enough time to do the 13 U.S. Fish and Wildlife, Izembek. Greg, are you on 14 line. 15 16 MS. MELENDEZ: Hello, Della. No. This 17 Leticia. Greg is not here. Actually Greg is in the 18 regional office on a wildlife and sport fishing 19 restoration for a detail, and is expected to be there 20 until March the 16th, so I will be giving Izembek 21 National Wildlife Refuge report that was prepared by 22 Greg. So if you want to go ahead and get started with 23 that, I'd be happy to do that. 24 25 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: I think that 26 would be great Leticia. However, can you move closer 27 to the mic. 28 29 MS. MELENDEZ: Sure. Well, can you 30 hear me now? How does that sound? I guess as I speak, 31 we can determine that. 32 33 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: I think she was 34 -- she asked if you can turn off the mic and just speak 35 into the phone receiver. 36 37 MS. MELENDEZ: Oh, okay. How does this 38 sound? 39 40 REPORTER: Okay. 41 42 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: It will work. 43 Thank you. Go ahead. 44 45 MS. MELENDEZ: Okay. Sorry about that. 46 Okay. 47 48 So on our report that Greg Risdahl had 49 prepared, I will be covering inventory and monitoring 50

Page 141 1 studies, research proposals, and Refuge staffing and 2 facility updates. 3 4 So starting with migratory waterfowl 5 harvest, the migratory waterfowl harvest season in Unit 6 9D ran from September 1st through December 16th, 2017, 7 which encompasses all of Izembek National Wildlife 8 Refuge. 9 10 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Leticia, can you 11 hold on one second please. 12 13 MS. MELENDEZ: Okay. Sure. 14 15 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: For those of 16 those of you looking, it's in your supplemental 17 materials that was handed out by Karen today in the 18 folder. 19 20 Yeah, it's just a little hard to hear 21 you, Leticia, but if you're able to speak up a little 22 more, too, that might help some. But I think we're 23 good for you to continue. Go ahead. 24 25 MS. MELENDEZ: It might be our phones. 26 We were having some difficulties with our land lines 27 just the other day. So let me know if you're not able 28 to hear me. 29 30 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Yeah, she turned 31 the volume up a little bit, I think we can hear you a 32 lot better. So go ahead. 33 34 MS. MELENDEZ: Okay. About 75 percent, 35 going back to the migratory waterfowl harvest, about 75 36 percent of the fall/ winter brant harvest occurs on the 37 Alaska Peninsula, primarily at Izembek Lagoon. Izembek 38 Refuge Staff estimated an annual average harvest of 39 1,130 brant from 1999 to 2014. In 2017, an estimated 40 2,828 were taken by hunters on the Refuge, primarily 41 from the Izembek Lagoon. So this is a 60 percent 42 increase over previous reported harvest rates. And if 43 you see the report, you can see on the second page 44 there's a table that has that breakdown. 45 46 So under the hunters, there was a total 47 of 305 hunters. So in addition to the brant harvest, 48 these same hunters took a combination of 103 ducks and 49 1,023 cackling Canada geese, and at least 12 emperor 50

Page 142 1 geese, and 37 willow ptarmigan. So the total combined 2 bird harvest for these 305 as you see hunters was about 3 4,766 waterfowl, plus 37 ptarmigan, and/or averaged 4 about 15.7 birds per hunter. And, of course, there's 5 other types of ducks and goose species that are 6 represented in this harvest report that you can see 7 listed there right underneath that table. 8 9 Going into the Unit 9D Federal and 10 State caribou hunting season, so both the State and the 11 Federal caribou hunting season in Unit 9D are split 12 seasons. Of course, the State is August 1 through 13 September 30th, 2017, and then picks up again November 14 15th through the 31st of March, 2018. And the Federal, 15 as you all know, is August 10th through September 20th, 16 and then it picks up November 15th through March 31st, 17 '18. So with both of these winter hunts that are still 18 in progress, I have not had any harvest reports. 19 20 But I do want to add though that I 21 appreciate you providing that information on permit 22 distribution in King Cove. And I have noted that, that 23 you passed out seven permits and have not received 24 harvest reports either. So I've jotted that down. 25 Once we get that information, we'll have it on the next 26 report. 27 28 So the eelgrass and seaweed abundance 29 in Izembek Lagoon, in the absence of a wildlife 30 biologist, Dr. Ward from the U.S. Geological Services, 31 here forward known as USGS, headed up the eelgrass and 32 seaweed abundance research. And over the past years 33 the Refuge has provided David Ward with funds to help 34 conduct a lagoonwide and site specific survey of 35 eelgrass for the biomass in Izembek Lagoon. In 2017 36 Dr. Ward provided a progress report of the work 37 accomplished during that time, and it's provided some 38 interesting preliminary findings which I'll share with 39 you now. 40 41 Based on the lagoonwide survey between 42 2007 through 2011, and 2015 though 2017, the mean 43 above-ground biomass of eelgrass declined 70 percent. 44 And the decline in the eelgrass biomass occurred at an 45 average rate of negative 12.4 per year. So the site 46 specific survey at Grant Point detected a 35 percent 47 loss in mean above-ground biomass between 2010 and 48 2017. So there's a significant portion of losses 49 occurred also in 2012 that was at least a 60 percent 50

Page 143 1 drop. And the one-year collapse in biomass, it was 2 likely driven primarily by low temperatures that 3 resulted in extensive ice cover of eelgrass beds, and 4 so this may have happened or it happened during the 5 winter months, which is November/March, and during the 6 start of the growth period, which is in April and May. 7 And on Page 3 there is a chart that shows the different 8 distribution sample sites, and a color coded legend up 9 above to help understand what those means. 10 11 So we're thinking that the reduction in 12 2012 is probably the reduced photosynthesis to light 13 throughout the growing season in April and September, 14 through that time frame and that may have added to the 15 decline. Both surveys detected a rebound in above- 16 ground biomass of eelgrass over the next three years, 17 2013 through '15, but only half the levels prior to 18 that. So the eelgrass biomass continued to decline 19 there after 2015, and is now at the lowest level since 20 the surveys began. So the recent loss in eelgrass 21 abundance appear to have been driven by the reduction 22 of photosynthetic light during the growing season, 23 although unusually high temperatures would have also 24 intensified the negative trends. And this is according 25 to David Ward. 26 27 Moving on to the ground-based brant 28 ratio. Let's see. So over the course of 50 29 consecutive years brant productivity data has been 30 collected at Izembek Refuge and aids the migratory bird 31 program in determining the state of the status and the 32 trends of the population, which is used as a tool to 33 determine the fall harvest bag limit. And the 34 productivity index for the entire Pacific brant 35 population is generated from a ground-based count 36 ratios of adult to juvenile birds conducted in Izembek 37 Lagoon and adjacent areas each fall when the birds are 38 staging for their migration. 39 40 In 2016 a new survey method was 41 implemented to increase the quality of survey data. So 42 the goal of the ground-based survey was to age 43 approximately greater than or equal to 85 flocks or 44 35,000 brant across the entire Izembek Lagoon complex. 45 And this includes equal sampling of both breed 46 nearshore and non-breeding offshore blocks. So the 47 methodology shows for simultaneous collection of 48 observations across a large section of the lagoon in a 49 single day, and that's thereby reducing some of the 50

Page 144 1 bias in the data collection. 2 3 So from September 8th through the 23rd 4 in 2016, 10 biologists collected 30,451 observations 5 from 46 flocks. The average percentage of juveniles 6 observed in the fall of 2016 population was 18.9 7 percent. A total of 38 families of brant containing 8 108 juveniles were counted in 15 flocks. So a family 9 size ranged from about one to five juveniles with an 10 average of 2.7 juveniles per family. 11 12 Then from October 10 through 20, 2017, 13 under the guidance of USGS biologist Ty Donnelly, six 14 biologist conducted the third highest count of brant in 15 55 years of surveys. So they made 66,959 observations 16 of individual brant in 71 flocks. And the percentage 17 of juvenile brant in the population declined to 12 18 percent, the fifth lowest estimate in the 55-year 19 survey history. A total of 157 families of brant were 20 counted in 50 flocks, which contained 389 juveniles, 21 and the average family size contained 2.5 juveniles. 22 23 Both estimates were below the long-term 24 mean for juveniles in the fall population and likely 25 reflected decline numbering -- the decline numbering 26 the brant nesting in Yukon Delta where most of the 27 population has traditionally bred. So the overall 28 cause of reduction in breeding may be a result of 29 strong El Nino conditions, and associated decline in 30 eelgrass abundance during the previous winter. 31 32 And the next page has a chart of all of 33 the family, the age ratio, and family sizes. 34 35 Next is the migratory bird fall 36 waterfowl surveys. A fall brant survey has been 37 conducted on Izembek by the Service's migratory bird 38 division since 1976. The 2017 fall survey took place 39 October 2nd to the 10th across the Izembek Lagoon 40 complex. And then in 2017 an index count was about 41 154,811 brant, giving a new three-year average of 42 178,785 birds. The long-term trend from 1976 to 2017 43 indicates a gradual growth in brant population, but is 44 less than one percent per year over 40 years, and that' 45 according to Wilson. 46 47 Other waterfowl species are monitored 48 during the fall survey on the Izembek Lagoon complex as 49 well. Three species of particular importance are the 50

Page 145 1 cackling Canada geese, the emperor goose, and Steller's 2 eider. 3 4 So the cackling goose index was 31,210, 5 which is approximately 44 percent down from 2016, which 6 was at 55,530. But the long-term trends indicate no 7 change in the population. 8 9 The 2017 emperor geese index was 2,185, 10 up approximately 30 percent from 2016, which was about 11 1,497. This indicates no significant trend over the 12 past 10 years. It is important to note that the 13 Izembek Lagoon complex only represents three percent of 14 the total fall emperor goose staging populations on 15 Alaska Peninsula. 16 17 The 2017 Steller's eider index was at 18 4,845, or was down approximately 30 percent from 2016, 19 which was 6,953. The long-term trend indicates a 20 decreasing population of Steller's eiders at the 21 Izembek complex, while the most recent 10-year trend 22 indicates a significant increasing trend. It is 23 believed that the trend in the Steller's eider 24 population is likely a result of change or changes in 25 the distribution on the Alaska Peninsula. 26 27 Moving on to the migratory bird winter 28 waterfowl surveys, the migratory bird division, they do 29 their mid-winter waterfowl surveys, and they usually 30 take place in January. However, because of some 31 weather and an issue we had with our bifold hanger 32 door, we actually -- they actually could not into their 33 plane to conduct these surveys, but they are coming out 34 ad the end of this week. As a matter of fact, they 35 should be arriving tomorrow and will be staying here at 36 our bunkhouse, and will be conducting those surveys. 37 38 Some of the proposals, we're going to 39 jump into the proposals now that Greg has been given an 40 opportunity to look at and submit, are the eelgrass 41 viral pathogens. Again David Ward and Dr. Sandra 42 Talbot of USGS submitted a research proposal to the 43 North Pacific Research Board to study the presence of 44 pathogens, bacteria, or pathogenic bacteria in seawater 45 in Izembek Lagoon. And the objective the NRBP proposal 46 is to develop a next generation eDNA system that can be 47 used to detect eelgrass pathogens and test the 48 hypothesis that eelgrass beds can scrub seawater of 49 harmful pathogens and, in turn, reduce disease in 50

Page 146 1 marine species such as mammals, fish, invertebrates, 2 and seabirds, as well as in humans. So the research is 3 intended to compare pathogen levels in seawater close 4 to Cold Bay and King Cove in areas with and without 5 eelgrass meadows. The researchers theorize that there 6 will be lower pathogen levels in seawater in eelgrass 7 beds. 8 9 So the research proposal, 10 quote/unquote, an environmental DNA approach to test 11 for pathogen present on native eelgrass meadows in the 12 three large marine ecosystems in Alaska, would improve 13 information about the presence and distribution of 14 disease pathogens on eelgrass. It would provide an 15 understanding of the vulnerability of critical foraging 16 habitat for migratory waterfowl and shorebirds, and 17 increase understanding of the role of eelgrass meadows 18 in the health of coastal marine ecosystems, 19 specifically in the Izembek Lagoon complex. 20 21 So changes in lagoon habitats. Dr. 22 Hollmen of the Alaska Sea Life Center, and Dr. Flint of 23 USGS, and Dr. Winsor from the University of Fairbanks 24 also submitted a research proposal to the NRBP that 25 would help provide an understanding of the current 26 habitat conditions in the Izembek and Nelson Lagoon and 27 provide an understanding of current habitat changes in 28 the system, as well as climate change and related 29 impacts. 30 31 So some of these objectives would 32 include assessing habitat conditions for Steller's 33 eiders; documenting diets of Steller's eiders through 34 stable isotope and prey DNA analysis and compare those 35 with earlier studies; document changes in Steller's 36 eider body condition during molting and compare to a 37 control population of captive birds in the Alaska Sea 38 Life Center. Another would be to determine if its 39 timing of molting has changed. 40 41 So this research proposal, 42 quote/unquote, are changes in sustainability of 43 essential lagoon habitat driving declines of Steller's 44 eiders in the eastern Aleutians, supports the primary 45 purpose for which Izembek Refuge was created, the 46 conservation and management of the Izembek Lagoon and 47 its eelgrass beds for migrating waterfowl, including 48 endangered Steller's eiders. Because of the rapidly 49 changing climate, documenting potential effect on 50

Page 147 1 Refuge habitat species and ecosystems is extremely 2 important, and is an important research need. 3 4 Disease transmission from birds. So 5 since 2011 Dr. Ramey and the USGS Alaska Science Center 6 have conducted annual autumn sampling of avian 7 influenza in wild birds inhabiting in Izembek National 8 Wildlife Refuge. The scientists have discovered that 9 avian influenza viruses are common in numerous species 10 of waterfowl and gulls, and that many viruses display 11 genetic evidence of Asian origin. Thus western Alaska 12 represents a potential joint of entry for foreign 13 origin and potential economic costly avian influenza 14 viruses. So nevertheless recent USGS efforts have not 15 identified any viruses in wild birds inhabiting Izembek 16 National Wildlife Refuge that display any clear 17 evidence of risk to human or any other animal health. 18 19 Beginning in Fall of 2019, Dr. Ramey 20 wold like to extend the research efforts to understand 21 if avian influenza viruses identified in waterfowl are 22 able to persist in the environment. This research will 23 provide our understanding of the risks associated with 24 the introduction of foreign-origin viruses into Alaska 25 to human and other animals. The question to be 26 answered is do wild bird hosts or the environment in 27 which they live serve as a viral reservoir which could 28 lead to infections via contact with contaminated water. 29 30 Results of this study will provide 31 evidence as to whether avian influenza viruses 32 circulating in wild birds are able to remain viable in 33 wetland environments over the winter; and if so, what 34 environmental conditions favor environmental 35 persistence. This information will inform global avian 36 influenza surveillance activities by management 37 agencies and biosecurity practices/recommendations for 38 domestic poultry operations. 39 40 Brant migration between Izembek Refuge 41 and Japan. This is really interesting. David Ward has 42 gone over to Japan. He works with the USGS, and 43 they've discovered that the black brant there, the 44 population in Japan, it appears to be declining, and so 45 it's important to understand where it's breeding, 46 staging and wintering and what migration routes are 47 being used between these locations. So the scientists 48 suspect that some of the Japanese brant stage in 49 Izembek Lagoon in the fall and then return to Japan in 50

Page 148 1 the winter. So in order to verify all that, the Refuge 2 is providing funding for transmitters for the study. 3 So that ought to e interesting as we learn more. 4 5 Recapping on some of our Refuge Staff 6 and facilities. So currently we have for vacancies, 7 four full-time permanent positions, and they include 8 the GS-6/7 administrative assistant, the GS7/9 wildlife 9 biologist, and the GS-9/11 wildlife biologist; and a 10 wage grade maintenance mechanic. The hiring freeze has 11 hampered our ability to hire these positions; however, 12 Greg has submitted a wildlife biologist 9/11 and it was 13 approved, and it in the Washington office right now. 14 So it's moving, but it's not moving as fast as we'd 15 like to, but it's a big leap from a non-hiring to being 16 approved and moving along, so we're hoping that we can 17 get this biologist on board as soon as possible I could 18 not tell you a time frame as to when that will happen. 19 20 Let's see. 21 22 The facilities. Our facilities, we've 23 got a lot of deferred maintenance facilities that are 24 being rehabbed and remodeled. We have a construction 25 company out here called TBI that is finishing up our 26 new duplex by putting new roofing, siding, windows and 27 doors, and they've been working very hard to complete 28 this project. The weather conditions have made it very 29 challenging, but we're seeing that it's moving along 30 smoothly. We had our bunkhouse kitchen remodeled, and 31 that was successful and it's completed, and so we're 32 excited about that. We have a lot of people that come 33 in; it's a revolving door during the summertime with 34 different projects going on and people staying there. 35 And it's provided a more comfortable and suitable area 36 for them to move around in. So that was done just 37 recently. And we're looking at getting a new storage 38 building to put all of our heavy equipment that's 39 exposed to the elements and slowly deteriorating, so 40 that's another big project that's coming along. But we 41 are looking good with our projects, and we're doing our 42 best to get our team Izembek back to a full staff of 43 seven. 44 45 So I hope that I answered your question 46 about the -- I heard there was a question about hiring 47 a wildlife biologist. So I hope there's an answer to 48 the question there. 49 50

Page 149 1 But that's basically all I have. The 2 last picture that you see there is of the tsunami 3 evacuation that we encountered. It was about 3:00 4 o'clock in the morning when the tsunami was supposed to 5 hit Cold Bay, and the evacuation route is on Refuge 6 property; however, not having a maintenance mechanic, 7 the city stepped up to the plate and helped us out. 8 And that's what's really great about living in a small 9 community, to help each other. And they actually 10 plowed this road and we evacuated to the highest 11 ground, and it was a success. The entire City of Cold 12 Bay moved fluidly, and retreated to safe grounds. And 13 we came back, and it was about 5:00 o'clock in the 14 morning when we made it back, but everybody was fine. 15 16 And then there's a picture of the 17 Pavlof volcano, which is always nice to capture on bird 18 day. 19 20 Thank you for your all's attention. I 21 appreciated it, and that concludes my report on 22 Izembek. 23 24 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Rebecca. 25 26 MS. SKINNER: Thanks, Leticia. I just 27 had one comment and a couple of questions. 28 29 My comment first, if you could pass 30 along to Greg appreciation for getting a written report 31 to us in advance. It sure is handy to have something 32 in writing to look at. 33 34 And then my first question is just 35 about the general importance of eelgrass, because you 36 do have -- it sounds like there's a long-standing 37 project, so there's a lot of attention on studying the 38 eelgrass, and I just don't know much about it. So can 39 I get like a two-minute why eelgrass is important to 40 Izembek. 41 42 MS. MELENDEZ: Sure. The eelgrass is 43 the largest bed in North America. And it provides a 44 very important food source for the migratory birds like 45 brant. And it also produces cover for very important 46 smaller invertebrates. It also provides nursery areas 47 for harbor seals and sea otters, and without this 48 popular -- or very popular food source for migratory 49 black brant, it would be detrimental, which what this 50

Page 150 1 Refuge was based upon was the eelgrass bed. So what 2 they've done is they do transects specifically on the 3 Izembek Lagoon to check to see whether or not the 4 eelgrass is viable, or if the weather and/or climate 5 change is affecting the eelgrass, but it's a very, very 6 important food source for migratory waterfowl. It 7 prepares them for their migratory migration. 8 9 MS. SKINNER: Okay. Thank you. And 10 then my next question is do you have any idea about the 11 timing on hearing back on the research proposals that 12 you covered? 13 14 MS. MELENDEZ: We sent off 15 recommendations, and it looks like a lot of these 16 research proposals will go through, but as we keep on 17 hearing. The funding is another issue. I imagine that 18 once we have a nice idea what our budgets going to look 19 like, we'll be able to help with these projects or 20 proposals. But I don't have a time line on them. 21 22 MS. SKINNER: All right. Thank you. 23 24 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Rick. 25 26 MR. KOSO: Hi, Leticia, this is Rick 27 here. Say, just an observation I guess. 28 29 MS. MELENDEZ: Hi, Rick. 30 31 MR. KOSO: Looking at the 70 percent 32 decline in your eelgrass and 50 percent increase in 33 your brant, how does that work? I mean, I'm not sure I 34 follow. 35 36 MS. MELENDEZ: Well, as you know, 37 there's been a lot of discussions about possibility of 38 climate change, and what we've noticed is that the 39 migratory brant, they migrate here, and they're up in 40 the upwards of 150,000 plus. And what happens is 41 they're overwintering in numbers, and it's increasing. 42 So we're seeing a lot of the brants not actually 43 migrating back to Baja, or even into the Arctic. 44 45 But the eelgrass has been an issue, 46 because of the change in the water and the cover of the 47 ice. And so if we're seeing that the water's warming, 48 then we're getting more eelgrass that it's growing, but 49 it's not growing as it should be, and the brant are 50

Page 151 1 overwintering here more so than they used to be. 2 3 Does that answer your question? 4 5 MR. KOSO: Yeah, that's fine. Thanks. 6 7 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Any other 8 comments. 9 10 Pat. 11 12 MR. HOLMES: Yes. Thank you for your 13 report. That's very illuminating. And we understand 14 your difficulties on staffing and being short on 15 people. And I find it interesting that you're able to 16 get 6 to 10 biologists out to count birds, but because 17 the one biologist that normally counts caribou was no 18 longer stationed there, but was transferred out, that 19 the caribou count was not conducted. And why not have 20 temporary transfer of a biologist and pilot from other 21 refuges and do it at a time when the caribou are there. 22 Counting caribou is a lot easier to count than birds. 23 And we've been assured in the past by your 24 headquarters, and one time by Geoff Haskett himself, 25 that caribou surveys would be a priority for the 26 Refuge. So I'm asking that this statement be put in 27 our minutes, and we'd really like to remind you folks 28 that it would be darn nice to have those critters 29 counted, because it's a vital food source for people on 30 the Alaska Peninsula. 31 32 Thank you. 33 34 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Coral. 35 36 MS. CHERNOFF: Hi, this is Coral. I 37 have a question. It says in here that the brant that 38 were taken by 305 hunters on the Refuge was a 60 39 percent increase over previously reported harvest 40 rates. So was the harvest rate just larger with the 41 same amount of hunters or were your amount of hunters 42 -- was that a 60 percent increase also, or 20 percent 43 or any percent? 44 45 MS. MELENDEZ: Yeah, the amount of 46 hunters have increased quite a bit. 47 48 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: The amount of 49 hunters this year was in my mind the most hunters I've 50

Page 152 1 ever seen in Cold Bay in all the years I've lived out 2 there. 3 4 MS. MELENDEZ: And for us. 5 6 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Yeah, you can 7 see the numbers I mean. And they were there longer 8 than they normally are. And a lot of it had to do with 9 going out to get the one emperor goose for their 10 collection. That is part of it. 11 12 But in reality, I think if you looked 13 at the amount of birds they can actually harvest per 14 day, it's 52 for one hunter from the different species. 15 So the impacts of that can be extraordinary in my mind 16 when looked at from the purposes of a subsistence 17 hunter. 18 19 Rick. 20 21 MR. KOSO: Leticia, just one more 22 question. I was looking at your rate of kill by non -- 23 the guided hunts and non-guided hunts. I noticed it 24 seems like it came up a lot. I was just wondering if 25 you guy have got a limit on how many guides you could 26 let hunt on the Refuge, and how many people you can put 27 on them. Is that -- have you got that in a law or 28 anything? 29 30 MS. MELENDEZ: That' a great question, 31 Rick, and it's the conundrum that we were faced with. 32 I mean, the opening of the new season was going to -- 33 we knew was going to increase hunters for emperor 34 geese. But we did have some other hunters that were 35 coming in and bringing in folks as well. 36 37 And so what we do, Rick, is we have 38 three waterfowl guides who have been with us for years. 39 And they submit all the documentation to us annually so 40 that they can keep their permit that enable them to 41 bring these folks in to hunt on Refuge land. And so 42 we've got those three waterfowl guides for many years, 43 and just this last year we had at least three or four 44 more guides that were trying to come in or that did 45 come in and try to say that they weren't -- how can I 46 say this, that they weren't failing by complying to our 47 Refuge rules. So we had to really start taking note of 48 how they were sidestepping, if you will, for lack of a 49 better word, our rules and regulations as a guided 50

Page 153 1 waterfowl hunter. 2 3 And it was tough. We had some -- we 4 had to have some law enforcement out here, but we were 5 able to build some cases and we're hoping that we can 6 work towards eliminating the pressure, the hunting 7 pressure from other hunters that are coming in. I 8 mean, the locals were getting really upset. Our 9 established waterfowl hunters were getting very upset, 10 because of the people that were coming in and hunting, 11 skirting the Refuge rules. And so we're working on 12 trying to fix that. And if we have to, we're going to 13 have to go to measures where we're going to really keep 14 an eye on who's doing what and have to have even more 15 law enforcement here to make sure that everybody's 16 crossing their T's and dotting their I's. But it is a 17 very big concern here, and we're addressing it right 18 now. 19 20 MR. KOSO: Yeah. Thank you, Leticia. 21 I've just got a point of observation. I notice there 22 was like 750 people that came out of town to hunt, and 23 there was only like 20 locals from King Cove, and very 24 few locals for Cold Bay. So we're definitely getting a 25 lot of outside people coming into town that we never 26 normally had. I never seen it that high before. 27 28 Anyway, thanks for the good report, and 29 keep up the good work. 30 31 Bye. 32 33 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Rebecca. 34 35 MS. MELENDEZ: Thank you, Rick. 36 37 MS. SKINNER: Two quick questions. So 38 how many total waterfowl guides were there -- I guess 39 we're looking at 2017, so in 2017, so how many guides. 40 41 And then on the chart at the top of 42 Page 2, I was wondering how hunter days is calculated 43 or what that means. 44 45 MS. MELENDEZ: So to answer your first 46 question, we have three waterfowl guides that are 47 permitted through us. And it requires them to submit 48 credentials that match or meet the requirements of the 49 refuge. Anybody else that's coming in and wanted to 50

Page 154 1 guide and have to access through the Refuge, they have 2 to have a permit. A permit is required. However, this 3 year, or 2017, there were more folks that were coming 4 in that were acting as guides, but did not have the 5 permit. So like I was saying, we had to really pay 6 close attention to those particular individuals that 7 were here that really increased the amount of hunter 8 and the pressure of hunting. 9 10 And the way we get these numbers is 11 when the hunters turn in their reports at the end of 12 the hunting season, they have to account for every 13 person that comes with them, how many days they were 14 out there hunting, how many birds they harvested, and 15 the kind of birds they harvested. That is a mandatory 16 report that every of the three permitted hunters have 17 to submit to us, and this is how we get these numbers. 18 We calculate those numbers at the end. 19 20 MS. SKINNER: Okay. Thank you. And I 21 think that answers my question. Earlier you had 22 referred to the -- I guess you didn't say they were 23 guides, but you had mentioned other people coming in. 24 So I guess the clarification is that you have three 25 permitted guides, but there were additional people that 26 appeared to have been acting as guides, but they 27 weren't permitted or otherwise kind of acknowledged as 28 being a professional guide. 29 30 MS. MELENDEZ: That is correct. 31 32 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Leticia, this is 33 Della. I know you have the three, but if I recall this 34 in the fall, I think Greg mentioned that Izembek allows 35 for four guides. 36 37 MS. MELENDEZ: Yes. 38 39 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: And that you did 40 have the four guides. In fact, that one particular 41 guide I have an issue with. I will talk a little more 42 with Greg about. 43 44 And then we also talked about the 45 vetting process, because the community of Cold Gay was 46 pretty upset about what was going on in Cold Bay and 47 having a better public process and setting into place, 48 I think may be more regulations or something that has 49 some more controls in place, because the community was 50

Page 155 1 pretty upset about what was going on there 2 3 And as from the standpoint of those of 4 us that live in the outlying communities, and watching 5 what's going on, it's crazy. It's literally. It is 6 really crazy. 7 8 MS. MELENDEZ: Yeah, I really 9 sympathize with what you're saying, Della, because I 10 heard a lot of it on a daily basis, and it really isn't 11 something that we want to see happen. And so like I 12 said, we're taking measures to make sure that we can -- 13 we're not going to be able to tell any -- anybody can 14 come in to Cold Bay and hunt as an individual. We 15 can't stop that. That's just, you know, the public 16 owns the Refuge. They pay for the Refuge, so they come 17 in an they hunt. 18 19 But if we're going to have somebody 20 that's coming and bringing people in specifically to 21 hunt with them on the Refuge property, that's when the 22 honest people that are paying and following the rules 23 get very upset, and then also the locals. I understand 24 exactly where you're coming from. And I would 25 appreciate if you were to bring that matter to Greg and 26 talk to him a little bit more about it. I'm pretty 27 sure he understands what's going on, but it would be 28 the conversation thing to have with Greg. 29 30 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Well, basically 31 I have had discussion, and I had a lengthy discussion 32 with him. 33 34 MS. MELENDEZ: Okay. Good. 35 36 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: So given that, 37 I'm hoping to see some changes here coming up this 38 year. 39 40 The other thing that I wanted to look 41 at is you mentioned, and correct me if I'm wrong. In 42 the YK, the numbers are down, the number of brants that 43 are nesting; is that correct? 44 45 MS. MELENDEZ: I'm sorry, say that 46 again, Della. 47 48 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Did you say that 49 the number of Brant that have been nesting in the YK, 50

Page 156 1 those numbers are down. 2 3 MS. MELENDEZ: Yes. 4 5 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. And has 6 anybody looked at the Seward Pen and the Northwest 7 Arctic, because last year when we had the statewide 8 meetings, when we did the migratory bird meetings, we 9 met with the groups, they basically had said they were 10 seeing birds up there that they've never seen in the 11 years, or some people in their whole life. So has 12 anybody looked at I think in what that potentially 13 effect might be if possibly the birds are nesting in a 14 different area. 15 16 MS. MELENDEZ: That's a great question. 17 I'm going to find out what kind of changes are 18 occurring in order to better understand that. 19 20 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: And I think 21 maybe last -- the permits that I did take, as soon as 22 the season closes, I will call those people and get 23 their reports so I can get that over to you. 24 25 MS. MELENDEZ: Okay. This is regarding 26 the Federal subsistence hunt. 27 28 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. And I 29 think Pat has a comment. 30 31 MS. MELENDEZ: Sure. 32 33 MR. HOLMES: Yeah. Again thanks for 34 your report. We do have a point of concern in our 35 letter to the Federal Board about the lack of 36 enforcement folks for the Peninsula, both for caribou 37 and I think we should probably add on there for 38 waterfowl. 39 40 And several times I've been out there 41 to Cold Bay. How many of the guides have lodges, 42 because it seems like every lodge has got two or three 43 skiffs and a bunch of four-wheelers, and I'm just 44 wondering what component of folks that are there with 45 their business of lodges are doing a little guiding on 46 the side. 47 48 And then I would suggest to Greg, and 49 if you would give him a note, that you could probably 50

Page 157 1 make a rough analysis, and it would be just rough, but 2 look at the number of hunters coming in. You know, 3 call up the Seibert kid there at PenAir in Anchorage, 4 and just have him give you the numbers of people that 5 fly into town every day. And, you know, from that you 6 might be able to sub-sample and determine how many of 7 those folks are hunters. 8 9 And I know some of the old Fish and 10 Game enforcement guys like -- excuse me, I'm brain 11 dead, this comes with age -- would -- I know one that 12 was based at King Salmon that used to come down to Cold 13 Bay and just sit at the airport with his notebook and 14 made a bunch of cases on bears and other critters just 15 sitting there listening to people brag in the airport. 16 17 Anyway, keep up the good work, and I 18 hope that you can find some solution to this, because 19 it is affecting local folks there in Cold Bay and King 20 Cove as well. 21 22 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: And then take 23 into consideration the amount of people that are going 24 in to sportfish, bear hunt, caribou hunt. It's a 25 pretty busy place. 26 27 MS. MELENDEZ: It is. It is. And 28 you're correct, Della, when you mentioned that this is 29 the highest volume of waterfowl hunters that have been 30 reported here in Cold Bay, and it's the highest number 31 ever seen. 32 33 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Okay. I think 34 at this point we'll probably cut off for today. It's 35 after five, and convene again at nine in the morning. 36 And it's a long day. 37 38 Karen, you had a comment. 39 40 MS. DEATHERAGE: Thank you, Madame 41 Chair. Kelly Krueger with the Sun'aq Tribe told me 42 that there will be a van to transfer folks over to the 43 Fish Center at 6:00 o'clock in front of the hotel. 44 45 Thank you. 46 47 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: If we can hold 48 on one second. We've got one more. Sam has one thing 49 he wants to bring up. 50

Page 158 1 MR. ROHRER: I just had one thing I 2 wanted to bring up. As you guys remember when we were 3 in Cold Bay, we discussed at great length Proposal 126 4 that's going to be in front of the Board of Game, which 5 was the caribou proposal that we put an amendment in. 6 That passed just a little bit ago unanimously, and it 7 sounds like they amended using more or less our 8 language. So not maybe 100 percent of the language 9 but..... 10 11 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: Unofficially. 12 13 MR. ROHRER: Unofficially it looks like 14 what we wanted, yeah. So that was kind of exciting. 15 16 MS. DEATHERAGE: (Indiscernible, away 17 from mic) 128 on Adak. Did you get that? 18 19 MR. ROHRER: They haven't answered. I 20 keep saying, what about 128. 21 22 MADAME CHAIR TRUMBLE: All right. Good 23 news. And we'll see everybody in the morning. 24 25 (Off record) 26 27 (PROCEEDINGS TO BE CONTINUED) 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50

1 C E R T I F I C A T E 2 3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ) 4 )ss. 5 STATE OF ALASKA ) 6 7 I, Salena A. Hile, Notary Public in and for the 8 state of Alaska and reporter for Computer Matrix Court 9 Reporters, LLC, do hereby certify: 10 11 THAT the foregoing pages numbered 02 through 12 contain a full, true and correct Transcript of the 13 KODIAK/ALEUTIANS FEDERAL SUBSISTENCE REGIONAL ADVISORY 14 COUNCIL MEETING, VOLUME I taken electronically on the 15 22nd day of February at Kodiak, Alaska; 16 17 THAT the transcript is a true and 18 correct transcript requested to be transcribed and 19 thereafter transcribed by under my direction and 20 reduced to print to the best of our knowledge and 21 ability; 22 23 THAT I am not an employee, attorney, or 24 party interested in any way in this action. 25 26 DATED at Anchorage, Alaska, this 10th 27 day of March 2018. 28 29 30 31 Salena A. Hile 32 Notary Public, State of Alaska 33 My Commission Expires: 09/16/18 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50

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