PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY

First Session Forty-Ninth General Assembly

Proceedings of the Standing Committee on Resources

October 19, 2020 - Issue 8

Department of Immigration, Skills and Labour

Published under the authority of the Speaker of the House of Assembly Honourable Scott Reid, MHA RESOURCE COMMITTEE

Department of Immigration, Skills and Labour

Chair: Christopher Mitchelmore, MHA

Vice-Chair: Jordan Brown, MHA

Members: Paul Dinn, MHA Carol Anne Haley, MHA Pam Parsons, MHA Chris Tibbs, MHA Perry Trimper, MHA Sherry Gambin-Walsh, MHA

Clerk of the Committee: Mark Jerrett

Appearing:

Department of Immigration, Skills and Labour Hon. Gerry Byrne, MHA, Minister Remzi Cej, Director of Immigration & Multiculturalism Debbie Dunphy, Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services & Policy Steve French, Departmental Controller Bradley George, Executive Assistant Deanne Howe, Manager of Operations, Workplace Heath, Safety and Compensation Review Division Cynthia King, Director of Income Support Fiona Langor, Deputy Minister Walt Mavin, Assistant Deputy Minister, Employment, Skills & Regional Services Tansy Mundon, Director of Communications Dana Spurrell, Assistant Deputy Minister, Immigration, Workforce Development & Labour

Also Present Alison Coffin, MHA Hon. Bernard Davis, MHA, Minister of Tourism, Culture, Arts and Recreation Hon. Lisa Dempster, MHA, Minister Responsible for Indigenous Affairs and Reconciliation Craig Pardy, MHA Scott Fleming, Researcher, Third Party Office Brad Russell, Director of Policy & Research, Official Opposition Office October 19, 2020 RESOURCE COMMITTEE

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Bernard Davis, for leave in a minute if Workplace Health, MHA for Virginia Waters - Pleasantville, Safety and Compensation Review, and elements substitutes for Pam Parsons, MHA for Harbour thereof, could be heard first. Grace - Port de Grave. With that said, thank you very much. I’ll turn it Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Lisa Dempster, over now to start with Fiona Langor. MHA for Cartwright - L’Anse au Clair, substitutes for Sherri Gambin-Walsh, MHA for CHAIR: Can we get Fiona Langor? She’s Placentia - St. Mary’s. sitting in the Minister of Education’s chair. If we could get the light on. In the Minister of Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Alison Coffin, Education’s seat, could we get the light for MHA for St. John’s East - Quidi Vidi, introductions? substitutes for Jordan Brown, MHA for Labrador West. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible.)

The Committee met at 9:07 a.m. in the CHAIR: Oh, it’s not working, okay. The light is Assembly Chamber. not working in that chair.

CHAIR (Mitchelmore): Good morning, MS. LANGOR: Good morning. everyone. Fiona Langor, Deputy Minister. We’ll start the Estimates meeting for Immigration, Skills and Labour. CHAIR: Can we get the light on for the Justice and Public Safety chair? Just before we turn things over to Minister Byrne for any introductory remarks, I’ll just CLERK (Jerrett): They’re having technical remind everyone, for the purposes of Hansard, issues. He’s wondering if you could take a short that when you speak to identify yourself and recess. wait for the light before you speak. If you need to, if the light is not coming on, just wave. This CHAIR: Okay. is being recorded. It’s not being webcast, but the Broadcast is certainly watching the proceedings We’re having technical issues, so we’ll recess this morning. for five minutes.

If you’re going to be moving around the Recess Chamber you need to wear your mask as part of our COVID policy. CHAIR: Thank you, everyone.

With that, I would like to ask Members of the It’s now 9:30. We’ll convene our Estimates Committee and the minister to introduce his Committee meeting for Immigration, Skills and team. Labour. My apologies for the technical issues we had earlier, but we will go right into MR. BYRNE: Thank you very much, Mr. introductions. Chair. Minister Byrne, you had introduced yourself. Delighted to be here, and thank you for everyone assembled. I’ll begin by allowing each and every MR. BYRNE: Yes. member of the Immigration, Skills and Labour team to self-introduce. CHAIR: Do you want to take things away to hand off to your staff? I am Gerry Byrne, Minister of Immigration, Skills and Labour, and a minister who also is MR. BYRNE: Thank you very much, Mr. responsible for the reporting of WorkplaceNL. Chair. This is an autonomous agency, of course. I’ll ask

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The motto on the coat of arms of the Department MS. DUNPHY: Debbie Dunphy, Assistant of Immigration, Skills and Labour reads: Deputy Minister of Corporate Services and Adversity meets with resiliency. We’re Policy. experiencing that very same motto today, consistent with our approach. MS. MUNDON: Tansy Mundon, Director of Communications. I think we should introduce members of the executive team of Immigration, Skills and MS. KING: Cynthia King, Director of Income Labour, Mr. Chair. Again, I am Gerry Byrne, Support. Minister of Immigration, Skills and Labour and also minister who is responsible for the reporting CHAIR: Now we’ll move to Mr. Dinn. of workplace health and safety, WorkplaceNL. MR. P. DINN: Thank you. With that said, I don’t know if we should move laterally. Fiona Langor, our deputy minister, has Paul Dinn, Member for Topsail - Paradise. moved to meet the microphone challenge in the back of me; Dana Spurrell is to my immediate CHAIR: Ms. Coffin. left. Should we move that way? MS. COFFIN: Thank you. CHAIR: We can go to the left, yes. Alison Coffin, Member for St. John’s East - MS. SPURRELL: Dana Spurrell, Assistant Quidi Vidi and Leader of the New Democratic Deputy Minister of Immigration, Workforce Party. Development and Labour. MS. DEMPSTER: Lisa Dempster, MHA for Good morning. the beautiful District of Cartwright - L’Anse au Clair. MR. GEORGE: Bradley George, I’m the minister’s Executive Assistant. MR. DAVIS: Bernard Davis, Minister of – I was going to say advanced education, skills and CHAIR: We’ll go to Minister Loveless’s desk if labour but that’s in a previous life – Tourism, the light will come on. Culture, Arts and Recreation. I’m happy to be here today. MS. LANGOR: Fiona Langor, Deputy Minister. MR. TRIMPER: Perry Trimper, MHA for Lake Melville. MR. MAVIN: Good morning. MS. HALEY: Carol Anne Haley, MHA for Walt Mavin, Assistant Deputy Minister of Burin - Grand Bank. Employment, Skills and Regional Services. MR. PARDY: Craig Pardy, MHA, District of MR. CEJ: Good morning. Bonavista. I’m here as an observer.

Remzi Cej, Director of the Office of MR. RUSSELL: Brad Russell, staff with the Immigration and Multiculturalism. Office of the Official Opposition.

MS. HOWE: Deanne Howe, Manager of MR. FLEMING: Scott Fleming, Researcher, Operations with the Workplace Health, Safety Third Party caucus office. and Compensation Review Division. CHAIR: Okay, I thank everybody for MR. FRENCH: Steve French, Departmental convening this morning. During the recess we Controller. had discussed that we would start with subhead 6.1.01, Workplace Health, Safety and Compensation Review.

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I ask the Clerk to call the subhead. Under Professional Services, we’re looking at a similar reduction of about $61,000 compared to CLERK: 6.1.01. last year.

CHAIR: Shall 6.1.01 carry? MS. HOWE: In the past year, the $75,000 allows for the appointment of part-time review I move to Mr. Dinn for his line of questioning. commissioners. Last year, there were three, in total, full-time review commissioners appointed. MR. P. DINN: This should be quick; I won’t We had one part-time review commissioner and keep you here long. three vacancies. The $75,000 allows for the appointment of either a full-time or additional Starting first with Salaries, I see that there was part-time review commissioners. approximately $65,000 less spent. Can you explain the decrease in Salaries? MR. P. DINN: Thank you.

MS. HOWE: Sorry (inaudible) question. Moving right along, Purchased Services: Again, you had budgeted $45,000 last year and the MR. DINN: Approximately $65,000 less was actuals were a little over $12,000. Can you spent last year. That was less than what was explain that discrepancy? budgeted in actuals. MS. HOWE: We had less transcription services CHAIR: We go to Deanne Howe, if we could than we had anticipated and we also had much have her light. less hotel rooms due to the slowdown due to COVID and the suspension of travel. The When you speak, if you could say your name bookings for rooms out of town, we travel a lot just for Hansard purposes. out of the regions in the month of March, and that did not happen due to COVID. MS. HOWE: That was due to a couple of vacancies we had throughout the year and a MR. P. DINN: Thank you. delay in some of the recruiting processes. Looking at Property, Furnishings and MR. DINN: Thank you. Equipment, I’m seeing approximately $2,300 less spent. Again, an explanation for that, please. Deanne, you’re going to get a quick number of questions there and probably similar answers. MS. HOWE: That was due to many items being on back order when COVID occurred. There MS. HOWE: Sure. were a lot of things on order and they didn’t come in until the new fiscal year. MR. DINN: Looking at Transportation and Communications, again, there was a substantial MR. P. DINN: Thank you. reduction there; in fact, less than half was spent. Can you explain that as well? You mentioned in some of your responses you talked to full-time commissioners, you had four. MS. HOWE: Yes, much of our travel and How are we doing with the number of communications is done near the end of the year. commissioners when I think the full complement We don’t do a lot of travel in January and would be about approximately seven? February, so March is a significant travel month for us. We had scheduled for all four full-time MS. HOWE: The legislation allows up to review commissioners to be on the road. seven, yes. Because of a combination of the significant weather event we had in late February and then MR. P. DINN: What’s the breakdown right now COVID, it suspended travel at that time. of our –?

MR. P. DINN: Thank you.

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MS. HOWE: Right now we have a full-time 200 cases waiting to be heard and now we’re chief and three full-time review commissioners. down to 94 cases waiting to be heard. That is a direct reflection of having full-time review MR. P. DINN: No part-time currently? commissioners.

MS. HOWE: No part-timers right now. MR. P. DINN: Thank you.

MR. P. DINN: How many appeals do we have How many hearings would you have in a month in the system currently? normally?

MS. HOWE: Excuse me? MS. HOWE: We typically schedule anywhere from 18 to 24 hearings a month. We do have a MR. P. DINN: How many appeals do we have certain number of postponements every month, in the system currently? so we typically tend to end up with around 18.

MS. HOWE: We have 94 cases waiting to be MR. P. DINN: I have, I guess, one last question scheduled right now. That doesn’t include the here for the minister, actually. It’s related to the number that’s waiting on a decision and that injured workers’ fund at WorkplaceNL. Can you have already been heard, et cetera. tell me if there has been any impact on that fund due to the downturn in the markets? MR. P. DINN: So 94 cases, does that equate to 94 people or is there a difference in the number MR. BYRNE: I’m not aware of that answer. I’ll of people involved? ask (inaudible). Do you have additional intelligence you would like to offer? MS. HOWE: Typically an applicant is either a worker or an employer. MS. HOWE: My understanding, just from the annual reporting, is that it has not been MR. P. DINN: Can we get a breakdown of that? impacted. But that would be more of a question for WorkplaceNL, and not us. MS. HOWE: It’s usually about 80 per cent workers, anywhere from 80 to 90 per cent in any MR. P. DINN: I think Debbie was going to add given year, and 10 to 20 per cent employer to that as well. applicants. MS. DUNPHY: Yes, Minister, WorkplaceNL MR. P. DINN: All right, thank you. operates on a calendar year. They did recently table an annual report. The annual report to the With 94 cases in the system, if a worker filed an end of 2019, obviously, there was no impact. I appeal today how long would he or she expect, think, like most, they’re still trying to weigh out before a hearing, to wait? the various impacts of COVID on the injury fund, certainly not to a degree where it would be MS. HOWE: Provided all parties were available below the shareholder agreement amount, and there were no issues with the case, you’re percentage funded. There will likely be some looking at about five months, five to six months. impact, but I think it would be minimal and I Right now we’re scheduling cases that came in think they have seen an improvement since in May. We do have cases that are older than March. that, but any one before that has been offered a date or we’ve attempted to reach them. MR. P. DINN: With the annual report, I assume that’s a public document? MR. P. DINN: Just a question for clarification: Is that the normal waiting period, or is it MS. DUNPHY: That’s been tabled, yes. exacerbated by COVID? MR. P. DINN: Secondly, when does that come MS. HOWE: That’s actually better than where out? How soon after the end of the year do we we have been. Last year this time we had almost see those reports?

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MS. DUNPHY: Normally it would be tabled in consequence. My understanding is that the June, according to the legislation; however, review itself is working away. It’s working well, there was an exemption under the temporary despite the global pandemic. It’s meeting its variance legislation to extend that deadline to the targets and hopefully we will be able to report end of September. So it has been tabled. before year-end.

MR. P. DINN: Okay, thank you. MS. COFFIN: Are you doing two phases? I noticed that on the website it directs you, say, I’m done for this section. the first phase – and this is from, I guessing it’s 2012, I’m not sure if the website is particularly CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Dinn, for your clear about this. The first phase was supposed to questions. be a comprehensive examination of the act to identify areas for improvement and I’ll move to Ms. Coffin. modernization. Then the second phase was consulting the system, focusing on maximum MS. COFFIN: Lovely, thank you. compensable assessable earnings, labour market re-entry, medical management, the role of You’ve asked all the numbers questions, but stakeholders, occupational disease and financial that’s okay because economics is less about sustainability. numbers and more about policy and allocation of resources. Are you working on both of those, or is the focus just on one or is the focus slightly different I guess the thing that comes to top of mind here than what I’m seeing here on the website? This would be the independent review of the workers is the website where I’m into ISL, labour, health, compensation act. Can you give us an working together and drop-down menu there. update on the progress? I’m looking at the It’s the link from employees and employers. website; I notice that it’s in two phases right now. Have you completed both of them? Are CHAIR: Minister Byrne. both ongoing? Give me a sense of what you’re hearing from the review and where we are with MR. BYRNE: The hon. Member asked some it and what we can expect to see in the next little history, back to 2012, so I’ll – while. MS. COFFIN: I’m just wondering if the current CHAIR: Minister Byrne. review is doing the same thing as the former review. If so, where are we in both of them? MR. BYRNE: There is an ongoing statutory review of the workplace health and safety. The MR. BYRNE: Not knowing the previous review paused, briefly, amid the global history, I’ll ask either Fiona Langor or Debbie pandemic. That’s to say that the review did not Dunphy. pause but the consultation process did pause. The consultation process resumed. There was in- Debbie, I think you may be best equipped. person sessions held this fall. I believe we just passed the deadline for written submissions last CHAIR: Debbie Dunphy. week and the review committee is now, the panel is now assembling their inputs, their MS. DUNPHY: The current review had a terms consultations and will be making of reference that highlighted three areas that recommendations accordingly. we’ve asked the committee to look at. There was significant work from the 2013 review that’s One of the things, it is required for them to meet already been implemented. This statutory review or to provide that input before the year-end. was focusing more on the three areas that were a However, one complicating factor is any part of the terms of reference. As well, if anyone considerations, any recommendations that they brought forward issues to the committee, make has to receive the input of an actuary to certainly the committee could take those determine costs, what would be the concerns and include it in their report.

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MS. COFFIN: Where would I find those terms they’re better and they can go back to the regular of reference? I’ve pulled up both the job, or if they’ve just aged out and they’re Immigration, Skills and Labour website as well moving into a retirement package. Can you do as the Workplace Health and Safety website and that? I don’t see the review in either one of them. MS. DUNPHY: Again, yeah, we can certainly MS. DUNPHY: If you look on the EngageNL get that information from WorkplaceNL. website – MS. COFFIN: Super. Can that be by gender as MS. COFFIN: Okay. well?

MS. DUNPHY: – there would be like a MS. DUNPHY: I can ask. discussion document. The themes were there. The themes were also included when we MS. COFFIN: Okay, thank you. announced the committee. If you like, I can certainly send you the links after. A couple of other quick questions here, one of which is: Can I have a copy of the minister’s MS. COFFIN: That’d be lovely. Thank you. briefing booklet, please?

A couple of more questions now. Can I have a MS. DUNPHY: Oh, certainly. breakdown of the number of people who are receiving workers’ compensation by industry, MS. COFFIN: Thank you very much. please? MS. DUNPHY: We have copies for both sides. MS. DUNPHY: That will have to be something we can certainly provide to you after. I don’t MS. COFFIN: Lovely, thank you. have that here. Do you have a sense of what your attrition is MS. COFFIN: No problem. That would be under workers’ compensation? I know that most lovely to see. government departments have been tasked with an attrition target. MS. DUNPHY: The number receiving workers’ compensation benefits by industry. MS. DUNPHY: Yes. Top of mind, I don’t have it, but I do know they have eliminated some MS. COFFIN: By industry. positions through attrition. I can certainly get that information for you. MS. DUNPHY: Okay. MS. COFFIN: Lovely. I appreciate that. Thank MS. COFFIN: As narrow as you find that, that you very much. would be just lovely. That’ll give us some sense of where we have problem industries. That MS. DUNPHY: Again, anything, Ms. Coffin, would be great. we’ll provide to the full Committee.

Do you also have any records of people who MS. COFFIN: Oh, absolutely. That’s what leave workers’ compensation? I know you public transparency and public accountability would leave for a variety of reasons. Some are all about. Thank you very much. people will come on, they’re receiving workers’ compensation until they are rehabilitated, or I’m not sure if my colleague, Mr. Dinn – the until they age out, or until they are re-skilled to other Mr. Dinn – has any questions. No? find other jobs. Okay, thank you. Do you have any sense of the number of people, the flow of people in and out and why they are CHAIR: Thank you, Ms. Coffin. leaving? So whether they’ve been retrained or

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Mr. Dinn, did you have any further questions? West Coast. Travel back and forth for departmental business is sometimes affected by MR. P. DINN: This Mr. Dinn? that, in either a positive or a negative way in terms of the dollar value of travel. With that CHAIR: Yes, Mr. Paul Dinn, under section said, when Minister Davis was the minister, 6.1.01. obviously, his travel requirements were somewhat less. MR. P. DINN: No, I’m good for now. Thank you. MR. P. DINN: Thank you.

CHAIR: Okay. MR. J. DINN: Mr. Chair, (inaudible).

Shall 6.1.01 carry? MR. BYRNE: Oh, I’ll speak –

All those in favour, ‘aye.’ MR. J. DINN: (Inaudible) through the speaker nor the earpiece. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye. MR. BYRNE: I’ll speak up too. CHAIR: Against? CHAIR: I can ask the Clerk to see if we can get Carried. some support for the Member attending, but if everybody could speak up a little, it would be On motion, subhead 6.1.01 carried. helpful as well.

CHAIR: I’ll ask the Clerk to call the first Mr. Paul Dinn. subhead. MR. P. DINN: Moving along there with the CLERK: 1.1.01 to 1.2.03 inclusive. Minister’s Office, I’m looking at less Supplies was utilized than previously budgeted for. As CHAIR: Shall 1.1.01 to 1.2.03 inclusive carry? well, there was a decrease, of course, in Purchased Services. Can we get an explanation Mr. Paul Dinn. on those two items?

MR. P. DINN: Thank you, Mr. Chair. MR. BYRNE: Yes, so in Supplies we’re down by $924 from the fiscal year 2019-2020. There Again, running down through some quick were just lower than anticipated supply costs at figures here. Looking at Transportation and that time. As well, some of the supplies used in Communications, I note that in a previous year, that particular year were held in inventory. back in 2018-19, there was about $36,000 spent. We budgeted a little over $54,000 this past year In terms of Purchased Services, the 2019-20 but, again, spent just above $40,000. Can you fiscal year actuals were down by $3,083 from explain the money that wasn’t utilized there? the 2019-2020 original budget. Copier expenses were lower in some respects. There was also MR. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chair. some – yes, that pretty well covers it.

One of the realities of living in a province like MR. P. DINN: Thank you. ours is that we have Members and ministers that live in different regions of the province. We Moving along to Executive Support, I’m looking were blessed with a – well, he’s gone now. We at Salaries again. Last year, there was about were cursed with a minister from St. John’s. $150,000 more spent in Salaries as compared to Bernie is gone. what was budgeted. Can we get an explanation there as well? The previous minister had lived in St. John’s and, of course, the current minister lives on the

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MR. BYRNE: In Salaries for Executive MR. P. DINN: Thank you. Support, a couple of things here: There was an executive position that had to be backfilled that Looking at Operating Accounts: Operating was on extended leave. As well, for the Accounts in total, of course, was down just shy additional amount for 2020-21 there was of $33,000 spent compared to what was additional funding added to cover the 27th pay budgeted. In total, was COVID a factor in that? period. MR. BYRNE: It would have been somewhat a MHA Dinn, you will probably hear this as a factor. The majority of this decrease in fiscal regular refrain during the course of this year 2019-2020 would have been under the morning’s Estimates, about this 27th pay period. Transportation and Communications sections I’m going to ask either Fiona or Debbie to just which we spoke about earlier. That was speak to the record as to what exactly is the 27th basically a function of, I guess, in some respects pay period. partially a function of COVID but not a significant impact as a result of COVID, given CHAIR: Debbie Dunphy. the fact that COVID occurred in the very end of the fiscal year itself. This was really a function MS. DUNPHY: Normally, in fiscal year, there of the writ period and other things. are 26 pay periods. For 2021, the way the calendar works, there are actually 27. There’s an MR. P. DINN: One final question, I’m just extra salary cost in all of our activities for this noting with the Executive Support, with the year, only. Salaries, there’s a contractual position there of $103,843. Can you explain that position? MR. P. DINN: Thank you. MR. BYRNE: I’m going to ask either Fiona or Moving down to Transportation and Debbie to … Communication, we’re looking at last year there was just short of $25,000 less spent. Can you MR. P. DINN: Debbie is waving. explain that as well? CHAIR: Debbie Dunphy. MR. BYRNE: In Transportation and Communications, there were lower than MS. DUNPHY: We had a contractual position anticipated travel costs. Many meetings were on our books, but this individual was actually held locally and the provincial election, which seconded to a federal agency and the salary was occurred in June of that particular year, also being 100 per cent reimbursed. That impacted the propriety of travel and arrangement actually concluded on the 9th of consultations from an interdepartmental point of October, so that’s no longer now a filled view. Many were either postponed or cancelled position. as a result of the writ period. MR. P. DINN: Thank you. MR. P. DINN: Thank you. I’m good, Mr. Chair. Looking at Purchased Services, again, just short of $8,000 less spent there. Can you explain that CHAIR: Okay. as well, please? Ms. Coffin. MR. BYRNE: Again, this is a function of copiers and printing. Copier expenses were MS. COFFIN: Thank you. charged to Administrative Support resulting in actuals including small expenditures such as I think most of the numerical discrepancies have media monitoring and other things being down been addressed. I am noticing, though, that – and somewhat. As well, the copier and printing this is some very rough math – even with the budgets consolidated under Administrative 27th pay period in there, there doesn’t seem to Support functions, at that point in time. be any attrition in section one.

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Has that been embodied in the Estimates or has MS. COFFIN: I’m just reading the heading any attrition taken place there? there.

MS. DUNPHY: In the Minister’s Office or MS. DUNPHY: Yeah, correct. under Executive Support in ’19-’20, we did not have any attrition in those areas. We did have an MS. COFFIN: Okay. admin support in the executive area a couple of years ago. But in those two areas in particular, How would someone go about applying for a no, there’s been no attrition in the last year. grant under that?

MS. COFFIN: And none expected to be in this MS. DUNPHY: If you recall a couple of years current year? ago, we undertook a pilot, I guess, to have multi- year grants to organizations. MS. DUNPHY: What we will see this year, while not attrition, we will see a transfer of one MS. COFFIN: Yes. of the executive positions to the Department of Education under the new structure. MS. DUNPHY: The way officials worked through this was certain departments took on MS. COFFIN: Okay. certain organizations. Stella’s Circle happens to fall under us, so there’s no program, I don’t So that’s not any attrition at all, that’s across think, associated with this in our department. government departments, we’re – This is just one of the grants – we give a grant to Stella’s Circle or Stella Burry through some of MS. DUNPHY: Correct. our other program areas. This one in particular was actually transferred from CSSD. MS. COFFIN: Okay, good enough. MS. COFFIN: Okay, thank you, and thank you Under 1.2.02, I note there are Grants and for doing it. It is in St. John’s East - Quidi Vidi, Subsidies: What are those for? And bang on, so I’m delighted to hear that. But it’s just funny $25,000 was budgeted and spent, and it is to have a single grant tucked in there and it – budgeted again. MS. DUNPHY: Right. MR. BYRNE: Grants and Subsidies. MS. COFFIN: – doesn’t seem to be attached to MS. COFFIN: So it’s 1.2 – anything else.

MS. DUNPHY: Minister, if you wish, I can Revenue - Provincial, $200,000, and we only got answer that one. $17,000. What’s the anticipated revenue and why the gap? That’s a grant to the Stella Burry, Stella’s Circle. CHAIR: Minister Byrne. MS. COFFIN: Right. MR. BYRNE: So the amount of this revenue MS. DUNPHY: So it is $25,000 to one does vary from year to year. The provincial organization and it is every year. revenue itself, if I understand it correctly, is funds that were disbursed in a previous year or MS. COFFIN: Okay, lovely. were awarded in a previous year but then not necessarily taken in. That’s grants for community agency, I guess, not agencies? Debbie, would you like to highlight that?

MS. DUNPHY: Correct. CHAIR: Debbie Dunphy.

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MS. DUNPHY: So in many of our programs MR. BYRNE: A reference would be made by a there are grants issued to various community client in the course of a project or initiative they organizations and employers and such would like to establish. They would identify a throughout the year. If for some reason they are particular need, and departmental officers or unable to spend the fully amount sometimes, others, if they cannot find a basis for existing depending on the contracts, they have to refund programming to be able to provide support, this the money. Sometimes they can bring it forward could be referenced or referred to this particular or use it for other purposes, but if they have to fund. refund the money, it often happens in a different fiscal year. If they return it to the department in MS. COFFIN: Okay. So it’s really tucked away a different fiscal year, we can’t re-spend it, it has and it’s for other things that don’t really fit into to go into general revenue. That’s what that is. anything else. Say, for example, a stranger says: I want to do this particular program and I need So it’s actually good news that the amount is some funding. For them to access that money, low, because it means there are less people or they would have to be brought into a system, less organizations refunding grants or funding have to consult with individuals, have to be in that we have provided. But we do budget based another program and someone would say: Oh, on, I think, a four-year history. That is generally nothing else covers this particular expense that what we’ve been receiving. So we continue to you need. Then they can reach into this Grants budget that amount. and Subsidies and take some money out for that. Is that correct? MS. COFFIN: Okay, lovely, thank you. And that’s a good way of capturing it; it just looks a MR. BYRNE: I don’t know if that’s always little funny here. been the case in the past, as to whether or not it was a program of always last resort, because MS. DUNPHY: It does. that’s really what I think you’re referencing. Sometimes it’s just in terms of if there’s an MS. COFFIN: Fair enough. expediency, if there’s an immediate need that needs to be filled quickly. Okay, let’s go on to 1.2.03, also, Grants and Subsidies here: What are those for? That’s Like I say, this has been a program that’s not 1.2.03, page 126, line 10. unknown to Members of the Legislature. It’s been around for quite some time. Normally, MR. BYRNE: So this is a program that’s been what it is, is to be able to provide maximum around for many, many years. It’s the ability to flexibility, to be able to meet client needs when be able to fund things which may not necessarily they’re established. In particular, if it does not meet a specific criteria, as I understand it. For appear readily apparent that it can meet an example, this fund has provided assistance to the existing program criteria or if speed is of Council of the Federation award for literacy essence or if the amount itself is relatively small awards, the Labrador West Employment enough that the burden of paperwork, the red Corporation, Memorial University MedQUEST tape so to speak, would impact the client and English as a second language trust funds negatively. That’s the function of this particular have been established or supported using this program, I believe. particular fund. I believe it’s been around for quite some time, but that’s the function of this MS. COFFIN: Okay. particular program. I wasn’t implying that this was a last resort MS. COFFIN: What’s it called? thing. It’s an unnamed pot of money that individuals are unsure how to access. I just MR. BYRNE: I don’t know if it has a particular wanted to get my head around – there’s a little – it’s miscellaneous grants, I believe. pot of money here that doesn’t have a label on it that can be used for funding things that don’t fit MS. COFFIN: How does one apply for such a anywhere else. That’s essentially what this is? thing?

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MR. BYRNE: I think, in a general sense, that’s CHAIR: Mr. Paul Dinn do you have questions fair to say, yes. on this section?

MS. COFFIN: All right. Good enough. I just MR. P. DINN: Yes I do, thank you. wanted to get my head around what it was. I’ll be quick. I’ll cover some more of the dollar Revenue - Provincial: Is that another example of figures things. I think my colleague here has money that would have gone out and then been asked a lot of the questions. not spent and come back again? I’m looking at 1.2.02 the Salaries area, I note MR. BYRNE: This particular line item is that in 2018-19, the Salaries were around, just related to WorkplaceNL. There was a decrease over $2 million, $2,195,900, then we budgeted to invoice for services to WorkplaceNL. We for $2,134,700 and now we’ve dropped down in have a working relationship with WorkplaceNL actuals in 2019 to just over $2.1 million. Can to provide policy services and it did not get paid you explain the decrease there and the increase prior to before March 31 of 2020. Again, it’s the then for the Estimates coming up? booking of that particular revenue. MR. BYRNE: Thank you. Debbie Dunphy would you be able to just expand or to confirm what I just said? We’re dipping back into 2018, if I understand correctly? MS. DUNPHY: Minister, that’s correct. We have a relationship with WorkplaceNL. For the MR. P. DINN: Yes, Minister, I’m just trying to ’19-’20 fiscal year, there was actually a refund look at the trend there in terms of where it was that was sent to us from WorkplaceNL related to going. It’s sort of been tailing off but now it’s an overpayment that they made to us. As you’re sort of going back up again. aware, as an employer we pay the full cost of WorkplaceNL. We don’t pay the assessments, so MR. BYRNE: Sure. Well perhaps the best there was an overpayment. The $46,000 that’s answer there may come from Debbie with the referenced there is actually that refund, but corporate history there of 2018-19. normally what is in this line is the reimbursement that WorkplaceNL pays us to CHAIR: Debbie Dunphy. help them with their policy, navigating the government system. MS. DUNPHY: Mr. Dinn, in 2019-20, we’re down a little bit again. It’s mostly recruitment, MS. COFFIN: Okay, thank you. you get vacancies and there’s some recruitment. For ’20-’21, the increase again, most of that May I have a list of the people who had received relates to the 27th pay period. There are the Grants and Subsidies under 1.2.03? Can I approximately 40 positions in this activity, so have a list of the individuals who received those the impact is fairly high. last year? MR. P. DINN: Thank you. MR. BYRNE: Absolutely. I’ll continue to ask it – MS. DUNPHY: It will be included in the binder that we have for you. MS. DUNPHY: Absolutely.

MS. COFFIN: Wonderful, thank you. MR. P. DINN: – as we move along. Thank you.

It’s tricky when you don’t have the binder. You I assume that also had an effect on the Employee can just kind of guess at some of the questions. Benefits, similarly? Or would it? Because I see the Employee Benefits went down and are Thank you very much, that’s my questions for coming back up again. this section.

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MS. DUNPHY: Minister Byrne, do you wish CHAIR: Ms. Coffin, do you have further …? questions?

MR. BYRNE: No, no, you go ahead there, MS. COFFIN: I’m good, thank you. Debbie, you seem to … CHAIR: Okay. MS. DUNPHY: The Employee Benefits, in this instance, is not actually the employee benefits I will ask the Clerk to call this heading. related to payroll. This is the workers’ compensation cost for the department. There CLERK: 1.1.01 to 1.2.03 inclusive. was a decrease and, as you can see, we have decreased our budget for 2020-21 as a result. CHAIR: Shall 1.1.01 to 1.2.03 inclusive carry?

MR. P. DINN: Thank you. All those in favour, ‘aye.’

Looking at Transportation and Communications, SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye. we also saw a drop, there was $16,000 less spent. Can I get an explanation there as well, CHAIR: All those against, ‘nay.’ please? Carried. MS. DUNPHY: Shall I carry on? On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 1.2.03 CHAIR: Mr. Byrne. carried.

MR. BYRNE: I’ll just pick up very quickly, but CHAIR: I will ask the Clerk to call section two. Debbie Dunphy is doing an excellent job of the minutia of the figures. CLERK: 2.1.01.

With that said, in this particular case, there was CHAIR: Shall 2.1.01 carry? travel for a director related to audits that is not required in the fiscal year, and lower than Mr. Paul Dinn. anticipated expenses related to postage were also incurred, so there was some reductions there. MR. P. DINN: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

MR. P. DINN: Thank you. Again, looking at the Salaries under Client Services, I hate to be repetitive but I have to ask. Looking at Purchased Services, we see a We saw last year there was about $1.5 million decrease there of about $56,000. Can I have an less spent compared to what was budgeted, yet explanation on that as well, please? this year you budgeted a little over $1 million more. Can you explain that, please? MR. BYRNE: In this particular case, there was a new contract for banking fees that resulted in MR. BYRNE: This is Client Services and there significant savings, as well as there was a are 417 staff members associated with this reduced usage of shredding services. It’s particular section or branch. Actuals in 2019- amazing how these things can add up. Those 2020 were down by roughly $1.5 million. This were the two most significant causes of those was largely a function of the recruitment process reductions. for filling positions and ongoing turnover that occurs throughout the year. I understand it’s not MR. P. DINN: Thank you. completely abnormal for this to occur.

I think my colleague next to me has already To anticipate your next question, which may be asked everything else, so I’m good. related to the increase in 2020-21, that is a function of the 27th pay period. Thank you.

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MR. P. DINN: Thank you. through Skype. Has that been considered in the new figures? Also, just looking at the Employee Benefits, of course, we budgeted for $3,500, yet there was MR. BYRNE: It has. You’re absolutely right. $107 spent. Can you explain that as well, One of the things you get to – as terrible as a please? global pandemic is, it also causes you to reinvent and to reassess ways of doing business, and MR. BYRNE: Employee Benefits take in a costs related to video conferencing, I won’t say wide range of circumstances. In this particular are no longer required at all, but Skype is being case, the $3,500 that would have been associated used at a much, much lower cost, if not no cost, with Employee Benefits also included to perform a lot of these duties today. workshops and training. There were savings due to lower than anticipated workshop fees in 2019- MR. P. DINN: Thank you. 2020. CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Paul Dinn. MR. P. DINN: Thank you. Ms. Coffin. Last but not least, looking at Purchased Services, again, almost half the budget was used as actuals MS. COFFIN: Thank you. in the last year. Can we explain that as well, and why it’s gone back up again to $315,000? Looking at Client Services: Can you give me a sense of the number of individuals that we have MR. BYRNE: Yes, to answer the question of and where they are working, please? the lower expenditures in the previous fiscal year compared to current being examined, there MR. BYRNE: There are 417 staff located were lower than anticipated costs due to we had within this group, dedicated professionals. Some a much higher reliance on digital of whom are paid not only from provincial communications, electronic communications, government funds, general revenue funds of the including copier and printing costs, which were provincial government, but also some of whom representative of just over $40,000 of that are paid through our federal-provincial co- particular cost reduction or decrease. There was operation agreements, our labour market decreased use of video conferencing with the agreements. We have 20 offices located transition to a more cost-efficient use of Skype, throughout the entire province. which amounted to $32,000 in savings. There were leasehold improvements in 2019-2020 of With that said, I think maybe if there are any $28,000, which varies from year to year, and additional questions, Mr. Walt Mavin might be some other expenditures under this category. able to provide some further input. There were lower numbers of business insurance claims in 2019-2020 for a savings of $7,000. CHAIR: Mr. Mavin. General Purchased Services expenditures from shredding to water to couriers, et cetera, were MR. MAVIN: Thank you, Minister. lower throughout the 20 regional offices, and this saved a significant amount of money of just So, as the minister indicated, over 400 staff over $43,000. across two regions. Our Eastern region is Clarenville and everything east. Our Western MR. P. DINN: A follow-up question to that. I region is everything west of Clarenville, know during COVID we’ve certainly become including Labrador. Staff allocation is pretty more reliant on Skype, or Zoom, or Facebook or close to 50-50 across our two regions. whatever you call it, in terms of technology and that. Has that been considered in the new MS. COFFIN: Great. Estimates of $315,700 going forward? Because I think we’ve come to a new age where we can do These Client Services, they’re delivering both a lot of business online and a lot of business income support, as well as the skills and labour side of things? This is all the staff for that? I’m

360 October 19, 2020 RESOURCE COMMITTEE just trying to get my head around where the Okay, thank you. pockets of money are being allocated and for what. Trickier question now: How did attrition roll out in the Regional Operations, Client Services? MR. MAVIN: Yes, that’s correct. Staff in our You’ve got a hand behind you. regional office will be responsible for delivering all of our income support and our employment CHAIR: Debbie Dunphy. and labour market programs. MS. DUNPHY: In ’19-’20, we actually MS. COFFIN: Right. abolished 10 positions throughout the department. Six of those were from retirements. If you came in and you applied for an income Again, I don’t have the specific details here, but support program, you would go to an individual it would be some in Client Services but it could here. But if you went to something that was like be in other areas as well. Again, that’s obviously a labour market development agreement, you the biggest portion of where our staff is. The would also go into that same set of clients and remaining other positions that we abolished, we then they would – the same set of, I guess, had some long-term vacancies that we made the representatives and they would help move you decision to not fill and we abolished those as through that. Okay. well.

If you wanted to come in under the Self- MS. COFFIN: Okay, good. Employment Assistance program, someone from Client Services and Regional Operations would Thank you very much. I think that’s all of my guide you through that process? questions for here.

MR. MAVIN: Yes, that’s correct. CHAIR: With leave from the Committee, Mr. Paul Dinn and Ms. Coffin, we can allow Mr. MS. COFFIN: Okay, just getting my head James Dinn to ask questions. around it. MS. COFFIN: Leave. Then the other Salaries that I see – and I know I’m not supposed to be asking these questions. MR. P. DINN: Leave. But the other Salaries that I see are specialized pieces for each of these other specialized CHAIR: We have leave. sections, yes? Mr. James Dinn. MR. MAVIN: The other Salaries, are you referring to other sections? MR. J. DINN: Thank you, Chair.

MS. COFFIN: Yes, when I flip the page to I think I heard that it’s 400 staff, did I hear that 3.1.01, Income Assistance, there’s a set of correctly, that’s split evenly between the Salaries there, but that’s specific to the Income Western and Eastern region? Assistance program. Is that right? MR. BYRNE: It’s 417, I think, is currently the MR. MAVIN: Yes. For example, Income complement. And you’re correct, they are Support, we have a division here at provincial roughly divided equally, 50/50, between Eastern office which provides oversight guidance to our and Western. regional folks. MR. J. DINN: Is it possible to get a breakdown MS. COFFIN: Right, okay. Yes, that’s the of the type of positions? I think you mentioned separation between working in the there in the abolished positions the number of Confederation Building and that administrative people who deal directly with the clients. I’m role. just trying to get a breakdown of management

361 October 19, 2020 RESOURCE COMMITTEE and those who are dealing with the concerns of services clients receive. I can only speak to you people who avail of the services. from my experience as a teacher, in that, seeing workload pile up, you’re still asking the same MR. BYRNE: I think, Debbie Dunphy, if you people to do more of the work. would be able to provide us with an answer as to what kind of level of breakdown we can MR. BYRNE: Perhaps I can address that. provide? The experience that has been communicated to MS. DUNPHY: Yes, absolutely, we can get you me both by executive and front-line providers is that breakdown. We’ll include it in the response that the opposite is actually the case. When you back to the Committee. have discrete, quantized handling of files within a discrete office, you will have times when there MR. J. DINN: And in the abolished positions, are increased demands and lulls, troughs of I’m just trying to get a determination as well, in demand. the abolishing of positions, how has that increased the workload, the wait times, the Being able to share work around to various ability of regional operations to respond to the offices, some of whom are specialized in needs of clients. I don’t know if that’s something handling certain types of requests, applications you can answer now or when you provide that and situations, what it does – and this is just information. what has been communicated to me – is that it provides a more consistent, steady workflow. MR. BYRNE: Mr. Mavin, would you be able to You don’t experience those highs or those peak comment on whether or not there is a trend of work activities followed by troughs or lulls. improved client services or increased duration or Work is able to be dispensed as it occurs and as time lag between client services? demand, and by being able to draw upon the network, I guess the expression that would be MR. MAVIN: Thank you, Minister. aptly used is that the whole is greater than the simple sum of the parts. Telecommunications With attrition come challenges in certain parts of technology, work sharing through electronic our delivery network, but our regional folks, our means, that’s one of the benefits of it. regional management team look for ways to ensure that services to clients are not impacted. Just by way of an example: Say, for example, For example, on the Income Support side, that the Clarenville office, which has a specialty may be some of the way in which we establish function in one area – it has clients within the our units of work to ensure that if we have one Clarenville area – that there was a labour- less resource, two less resources that we’re able transition issue or some circumstance which to pick that up by sharing the work around. The created a lot of volume of work or activity. world of work today, as we all know, in terms of Rather than that one office having to take on that our ability to do more work online and virtually large volume or wave of activity independently allows us to share that work across our 20 and exclusively, by sharing the work around it offices. actually provides a much more seamless, much more consistent window for the client, and for MR. J. DINN: Thank you. the professional administrator it provides a more consistent workflow for them as well. I guess my concern is that as we talk about sharing the work, that means more things get put MR. J. DINN: Thank you. on the plate and something has to be taken off, especially if you’re not going to burn people out. CHAIR: Are you finished with your questions? I would assume that in this jurisdiction, anything dealing with people is challenging enough as it MR. J. DINN: (Inaudible.) is. My concern would be that in the effort to abolish positions or to find efficiencies and to CHAIR: I’ll ask the Clerk to call the subhead. share work, we’re actually increasing the workload and that it does impact eventually the CLERK: 2.1.01.

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CHAIR: Shall 2.1.01 carry? On the Purchased Services, there were lower expenditures in 2019-2020 due to expenses for All those in favour, ‘aye.’ the FPT membership change to Professional Services. These were incorrectly attributed to SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye. Purchased Services when they really should have been Professional Services. CHAIR: All those against, ‘nay.’ MR. P. DINN: Thank you. Carried. Looking at the provincial revenue, can I get an On motion, subhead 2.1.01 carried. explanation on how that’s generated and the dip in that as well? CHAIR: I’ll ask the Clerk to call the subhead. MR. BYRNE: Yes, there was a dip of $1.6 CLERK: 3.1.01 to 3.2.06 inclusive. million. There was a dip, as you say of, a decrease of $1.6 million. This decrease is due to CHAIR: Shall 3.1.01 to 3.2.06 inclusive carry? income support and Employment Services regulation changes due to child support. It was Mr. Paul Dinn. anticipated that collection from Support Enforcement agencies would decrease by MR. P. DINN: Thank you, Mr. Chair. approximately $1.7 million per year as a result of the changes. Starting at 3.1.01 – and I’m going to assume the answer but I’m going to ask it anyway – with This is a bit of a complicated thing that I think Salaries, I see that the salaries have gone up Committee Members would like to hear more of, again in 2021. Can I get an explanation for that, so with that said, I’ll turn it over to Fiona; if you please? want to delegate, Fiona, just to walk through these somewhat important but somewhat MR. BYRNE: Allow me to field that difficult complicated changes. question. This is again a result of the 27th pay period. MS. LANGOR: There were legislative changes that we did make in the spring relating to CPP MR. P. DINN: Thank you. child benefit. As a result of that, it means a reduction in revenue for the province and money I’m looking at Professional Services and that’s actually collected through our support Purchased Services. I note that, Purchased enforcement agency and putting that money Services, there was very little of the ’19-’20 back into the hands of the individuals who amount spent and it seems like the difference of would normally be in receipt. that was spent in Professional Services. Can you explain these two items? I will pass it over to Walt Mavin or Cynthia King to elaborate on that. MR. BYRNE: Within the line item of Professional Services, we have mandatory CHAIR: Cynthia King. membership dues or fees related to federal- provincial-territorial working groups and MS. KING: In June of 2019, we made committees. We fund into a secretariat, a regulatory amendments so that families would national secretariat. Often these secretariats are be able to keep all of the child support that’s due located within the provinces, within the FPTs to the children, as well as CPP benefits for themselves. We actually host two of these this children – surviving child and disabled year but with that said, those fees have contributor benefits. About $3.6 million was increased. That is the cause of the Professional attributed to child support and $300,000 to the Services being increased. CPP.

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Every year the Support Enforcement Agency CHAIR: Mr. Byrne. would collect amounts that were due to the department for income support that was MR. BYRNE: So this is a commitment the provided to individuals prior to them being able government has made under the National Child to access their child support. The department Benefit Reinvestment Strategy with the federal would pay the amount and when the individual government. This is an initiative that allows for was able to receive their child support, that private child care where subsidized child care is amount was owed to the department. Every year not an option for recipients of income support there are collections on that to the department. who are employed or pursuing further education and require private child care. This is for non- When we made the regulatory changes, it was regulated child care services, as per the National estimated by the Support Enforcement Agency Child Benefit Reinvestment Strategy as detailed that about $1.7 million per year would not come within. Basically, this funding is available, it to the department in future as a result of those remains available, we’ll continue to commit as collections not being made for children who are per our commitments, and we’d like to – receiving child support, so the money goes to the basically, the fact that it’s not spent, and as you children. noted, has not been spent totally in the last several years, is an indicator that other services MR. P. DINN: Thank you. seem to be able to provide that benefit wherever required. How many children would we be talking about? MR. P. DINN: Thank you. MS. KING: About 1,900 families were estimated at the time in receipt of income General question: I know the case loads for support who would have child support or CPP income support or income assistance is benefits coming to them. declining. I mean, it’s decreasing mainly because people are aging out of it. So in light of MR. P. DINN: A question on that: Would this the impacts of COVID on families, do you see a be considered a clawback, what’s happening potential for an increase in case loads? here? MR. BYRNE: The case load for income support MS. KING: No, we discontinued the clawback. comes with a lot of preconceived notions in many – not you, but many people have MR. P. DINN: Okay. somewhat ideas or thoughts about who represents the case load, when, in fact, it’s quite MS. KING: We were counting child support as often not as perceived. income and deducting it from amounts of income support a family would be eligible for. You’re absolutely right; we do have a significant We discontinued that practice and now families portion of older spousal couples that are aging get to keep 100 per cent of their child support out. Once you, of course, reach the age of Old and CPP benefits and get 100 per cent of the Age Security benefit or CPP, then, of course, income support that they’re eligible to receive at you transition from income support to the the same time. federal program and so on. So you’re right, it’s a very dynamic, very changing caseload itself. MR. P. DINN: Thank you. In terms of COVID and the uptake to the federal Moving along, I’m looking at the National Child income replacement programs, such as the Benefit Reinvestment, I did go back looking for CERB, the Canada Emergency Response a trend, 2018-’19 there’s about $167,000 spent Benefit, and now the Canada response benefit – and looking at ’19-’20 actuals it’s about they’ve taken out the emergency and now it’s $166,000 spent, yet we continue to budget for the Canada response benefit – I’ll ask Cynthia to $320,000. So what are we looking at there? give a deep down into the numbers, but they’re What’s the difference there and with a trend of not maybe what some might expect. They’re not about $160,000, why the necessity to double it? large.

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Cynthia. MR. P. DINN: Thank you.

CHAIR: Ms. King. CHAIR: Thank you, MHA Dinn.

MS. KING: The current Income Support Before we go to MHA Coffin, we’re going to caseload is just over 21,000 – 21,526. We’ve take our scheduled break for 10 minutes. I’ll ask seen a reduction in the caseload since March of the Clerk to set the clock. If anybody needs a about 1,600 cases. That’s largely due to income restroom break or an ability to make a telephone support recipients being able to avail of other call, feel free to do so and we’ll come back at – federal recovery benefits as well as people not coming on the caseload during that time. MR. BYRNE: Mr. Chair, I realize that’s standard practice, but where we started a little The Income Support caseload is not the same bit late, and I do know that people do have to 22,000 people all year long. Every single month, make telephone calls and they do need a little year in, year out, we see about 400 cases come restroom break, but do we want to keep going? I on and 400 cases go off, every single month. don’t want to – Since the availability of federal benefits, in May we saw a bit of a reduction, initially, and the CHAIR: We can reduce the break maybe to five reduction of the caseload is a factor of both minutes, Minister Byrne. people not applying as well as people leaving. So we haven’t seen as many applications in the MR. BYRNE: What do you think? I don’t want last several months and, as a result, the caseload to – because we do have to sanitize the Chamber has decreased. before the House. There’s a little bit of work so we can’t go too, too long. MR. P. DINN: I guess, the crux of my question is, in terms of looking ahead, because as you’ve CHAIR: I think the maximum time we can go is noted there’s been many who are availing of the 12:45, based on the time for the House, if we programing that’s there and there will come a were going past 12 o’clock. time when that programing won’t be there. Do you expect to see a greater uptake in income As Chair, I think I would like to take a five- support? I know that we’re crystal balling here minute break and give everybody five minutes to but, I mean, using your expertise, would you see do anything that they need to do and we’ll that increasing after all of these programs run convene at 10:45. dry? Thanks. MS. KING: As the minister said, the caseload, there are people who leave the caseload every Recess month due to the availability of other benefits, in terms of aging out at 65 and CPP and so on. CHAIR: Okay, we’re back to reconvene the There is that natural churn of the caseload. There Committee. are still jobs that people are availing of and won’t need income support. I’ll just ask, maybe, Mr. Jim Dinn if he would have some questions under section 3.1.01 It’s difficult to predict what the uptake in the onward. future might be. We do predict that individuals who are in receipt of income support before MR. J. DINN: Yes. I’ll start with 3.1.01. going off on the federal benefits, who aren’t eligible to receive EI or the new federal benefits, I’m just curious, with regard to, again, the may return. Those who are receiving the federal positions that are there under Salaries, the benefits, CERB, if they worked prior to, would breakdown of people who are management not come to Income Support. They would versus those who are dealing with client services continue with the federal benefits for the next under 3.1.01. How many people are we talking year. about in total and what would be the breakdown?

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CHAIR: I’ll ask the Clerk to set the timer as guardian or parent or whomever. So we can well. definitely provide that breakdown. We’ll follow up with that shortly. Minister Byrne. MR. J. DINN: Okay. MR. BYRNE: These are salaries, as was explained earlier, related to policy reference and Would it be possible to have the total number of guidance for regional services. They’re not all recipients – I think it’s been just characterized as management. Some are bargaining position – who inappropriately, to use the minister’s salaries. words, applied for CERB while they were in receipt of income support? Would it be possible Maybe, Debbie Dunphy or Walt Mavin, you to get an idea of just how many recipients have might be able to elaborate further on the exact applied for CERB and who were on income number of people involved in this particular support and are probably facing the loss of section. income support as a result of that?

CHAIR: Walt Mavin. MR. BYRNE: We can provide what we know to date. Obviously there may be some that are MR. MAVIN: Thank you, Minister. unknown to us, but that’s a part of the process. And, yes, to use my words, it is inappropriate if Yes, this would be our Income Support it’s contrary to regulation. Division, housed here at the provincial office which, as the minister noted, provides oversight MR. J. DINN: Is it also possible to get the and guidance to the delivery of income support breakdown, then, of how many of those who throughout our regional offices. It would include applied for it represent families as well? the director’s position and five other positions, in total for six. MR. BYRNE: I believe we can provide our best estimates at this point in time. MR. J. DINN: Six total. Okay. MR. J. DINN: Okay. Would it be possible to get an idea – I know some numbers are thrown around there – but the The number that was thrown around – or not total number of families that would be served, thrown around, that was put out, sorry – is that and maybe the breakdown if you have the there is a reduction in some 1,600 cases after number of families, individuals, single people, March. If I understand it, from talking to End that kind of thing? Would there be a breakdown Homelessness, anywhere from 1,400 to 1,600 of that? cases. The number I heard here were 1,600 cases on income support. Is that a result, as I CHAIR: Minister Byrne. understand it, of CERB, the people who applied for CERB? MR. BYRNE: We can definitely provide that. MR. BYRNE: I’m going to ask Cynthia King to There are two reference points in terms of answer the question as to what exactly we income support, income assistance. There are positively know about those 1,600 cases. cases and recipients. A family, obviously, would be considered casework. They may have MS. KING: The caseload is decreased by 1,600 dependants within a family, so we can divide cases. As I said earlier, the caseload changes that into the number of cases and, as well, the month to month. People are leaving for a number of recipients. Just to understand why the number of different reasons on a regular basis to number is different, why the number of cases receive federal benefits, to become employed, versus the number of recipients: Obviously, a for various reasons. We know that the caseload family with dependent children, the children decreased by 1,600 since March and that is due would not interact directly with the government to people who are leaving, as well as people who or with client service officers. It would be their are not applying. We have to assume that people

366 October 19, 2020 RESOURCE COMMITTEE who aren’t applying have other sources of Once that future eligibility date is calculated, we income and that may be the federal recovery have the ability to bridge the gap so that benefits. We don’t know for sure why people are individuals are able to receive funding from us not coming to the program, but we do know that between their application approval and their the caseload is down 1,600. eligibility date. That will ensure that the negative consequences of not having income, MR. J. DINN: I’m assuming then, when we talk such as housing instability – we can mitigate about the reduction in the caseload, that’s also a those consequences for individuals. It’ll be reduction in any income support that’s paid out. based on an individual conversation with applicants, but we are very aware that there is MS. KING: Mm-hmm. risk for individuals of not having income for a particular period of time. We will be working MR. J. DINN: What would that savings with individuals to make sure that gap is not represent then? What’s the total money that if created and that we don’t see the negative we’re looking at 1,600, I would assume from the consequences of being without income for a previous year, that’s down 1,600 from the period of time. previous year as well. This is not a yearly or annual event that occurs. I’m trying to get an MR. J. DINN: As I understand it then, there’s a idea of what are we looking at in terms of 60-day waiting period without income as a savings here, or the total amount of money that means test, more or less. Would that be correct? was not paid out as a result of that. MS. KING: No. We have what we call a 60-day MS. KING: I would have to get the exact assessment and we look back at the last 60 days. amount for you. It’s approximately $800 per We look at the 60 days previous to your case. application of what income you received. We do a financial calculation where we take a MR. J. DINN: Okay. percentage into account because we don’t expect you to live on income support-type benefits For those, then, who inappropriately – air quotes when you’re not in receipt of income support. – applied for CERB, what’s the process now? To Then, a future eligibility date is calculated. follow up on the questions from the Member for Topsail - Paradise, what will be the process for We looked at individuals who were receiving now? I would tell you that we’re going to be in it CERB and what they would be eligible to a lot more quickly than we’d like to believe. I receive under income support. That varies will have phone calls; food banks will have depending on if you’re a single individual or a phone calls. This is where the pressure is going family, if you’re renting, if you’re board and to now come. I’m just wondering what will be lodging. Every case would be different. the process. Take me through that process right now, please. There would be several weeks. Nobody would have to wait 60 days, two months, for a future MS. KING: As individuals requiring home eligibility date. It would just be a number of support – particularly those who left income weeks. We will be bridging the gap for those support to receive CERB – contact us, we are number of weeks. There will be no waiting making every attempt to fast-track those period for individuals who express that they applications. As they call us we do a financial have financial hardship as not having any eligibility assessment and it is based on income income at the moment, in order to pay rent, pay you received in previous months. From that, we bills. We will bridge that gap for them. determine when you would be eligible for income support. That’s a calculation that takes MR. J. DINN: What would be the minimum into consideration the fact that you would not be and then the maximum? What are we looking at expected to live on income support rates during as a time frame? I’m speaking to the point of the months you didn’t receive income support. people who call my office and the people I serve, where there can be a significant lag.

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I’d also say that a person who’s relying on $40 a Would it be proper to assume that this is due to a week for income a couple of weeks is an decrease in our natural birth rate, less children eternity. I’m just trying to get an idea of when. being born?

MS. KING: It would be the processing time for MR. BYRNE: I wouldn’t be able to make that the application. When individuals express to us assumption. I know that the program has not during the application process that they have no been fully subscribed for many, many years. We resources at the moment, whether it’s CERB or maintain the budgetary figure based on our under regular circumstances, our client service commitments, but also we’re anxious to make officers have an ability to issue some emergency sure that this information is spread far and wide assistance that would assist them while they’re so that any eligible recipient can benefit from it. waiting for their application to be processed. Again, the conduit of the information is the CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Jim Dinn. Public Health nursing profession, in addition to billboards and other things. But all of those Mr. Paul Dinn. mothers, expectant mothers and postpartum mothers, are made aware of this program should MR. P. DINN: Thank you. they be able to take advantage of it.

Moving to 3.1.03, I’m looking at Allowances MR. P. DINN: I guess a little bit more into the and Assistance. There is a huge decrease there, weeds on this one. I’m just curious as to what almost half, that was not yet used. Can we get an amounts are available to a mother and her baby. explanation for that under the Allowances and Is this something we would look at in terms of Assistance? increasing the benefit?

MR. BYRNE: This is the Mother/Baby MR. BYRNE: Under the prenatal component a Nutrition Supplement. The program focuses on benefit of $60 per month is available, as well as early childhood development. It’s based on the a one-time benefit at the beginning, upfront, of public policy known as the National Children’s $90 at the time of birth to eligible pregnant Agenda. mothers. We’d always be ready and available to conduct a review as to whether or not we might There is a program that provides assistance, be able to augment or change the program in a prenatal, as well as postnatal. This is the prenatal meaningful way. program. It provides for nutritional supplements for eligible clients. This has not been subscribed MR. P. DINN: Thank you. to the full budgeted amount for many, many years. Every Public Health nurses is very, very Looking at 3.2.01, I’m looking at Purchased well aware of this program. We want to keep it Services. Purchased Services, of course – I’m intact; we want to be able to respond to any going to do my math here – about 20 per cent of increase in demand. the budget was utilized last year; yet, we’re allocating a similar amount of the budget to this Our major point of contact in communications year. and dissemination of information about this is through the public nursing profession. Really, Can you give us a little bit of information on the basically, this is what the expenditures are of it decrease there and why we’re gone back up? at this point in time. MR. BYRNE: I’m sorry, which tab are you …? MR. P. DINN: Thank you. MR. P. DINN: Sorry. I’m looking at 3.2.01, I go back to the national child benefit and how Purchased Services. that was approximately half, as well as budgeting. I can appreciate the minister’s MR. BYRNE: 3.2.01, this is Employment and comments on trying to get the uptake. Training Programs?

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MR. P. DINN: Yes. probably an oversight or it was just a minimal amount to put the 27th pay period in there. MR. BYRNE: Purchased Services. What I feel to be true is that the lower than anticipated MR. P. DINN: Thank you. savings on Purchased Services, Employment and Training Programs – Walter, do you want to I realize it’s a small amount. I was just curious, pick up that because I think I’ve lost my –? as it was the same. I think the previous year it was around $54,600, so I understand where CHAIR: Walter Mavin. you’re going with it.

MR. MAVIN: Thank you, Minister. Moving to the next page, I’m looking at 3.2.02, the Employment Development Programs. Can In this particular area, we did have some costs you give us an explanation on the Allowances for some online self-directed employment and Assistance and the Grants and Subsidies and assistant program, or Career Cruising, which we what that entails? paid through the Labour Market Development Agreement funding in ’19-’20, and as well we MR. BYRNE: Allowances and Assistance and did have some funding in there for some data Grants and Subsidies, so funding is provided for analysis that was lower last year than Employment Development Supports, $80,000, anticipated. and the Adult Basic Education placement support of $562,000. This is 90 per cent MR. P. DINN: Thank you. federally funded.

I’m just going back up to Salaries now on the MR. P. DINN: The revenue there, the federal Mother/Baby Nutrition Supplement. Of course, funding, what pocket of funding is that coming we talked about the increase in pay periods, but I out of? don’t see any change in the Salaries under the Mother/Baby Nutrition Supplement. Can I get an MR. BYRNE: This is the under the WDA. The explanation on that one? federal revenue of $1.39 million is provided under the Workforce Development Agreement. MR. BYRNE: (Inaudible), are we going – MR. P. DINN: Thank you. MR. P. DINN: I’m on the same page. Moving further on down, looking under Labour CHAIR: 3.1.03. Market Development Agreement, 3.2.03. Professional Services, a huge dip last year and, MR. BYRNE: Oh, sorry. of course, this current Estimates we’re looking at probably a third of what it was budgeted for in MR. P. DINN: I just moved up. Just a curiosity the previous year. Can I get an explanation on on the Salaries because we’ve alluded to the fact that, please? that there’s an additional pay period, yet I’m seeing in the Salary there it’s the same right MR. BYRNE: Sure. across the board. Under Professional Services, this is funding MR. BYRNE: I’ll defer to that one to Debbie. that’s provided to cover the cost of system upgrades and enhancements, IT system upgrades CHAIR: Debbie Dunphy. and it’s also for the cost of the audit. There was a significant decrease in 2019-2020 and that’s MS. DUNPHY: With the Mother/Baby because system upgrade work is being Nutrition Supplement, we do have a staff person performed mainly by OCIO, as opposed to identified that handles this program but they also contracted external sources. do other work in other areas. It would be a minimal amount, but it’s likely you will see an MR. P. DINN: Thank you. overage next year. I would suggest it was

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I see down in the final number under Total: I’m going to save Income Assistance for Mr. Labour Market Development Agreement, last James Dinn, and how about I jump in at 3.1.02, year the actuals looks like an amount of just over the National Child Benefit Reinvestment. Can I $7 million. Would that be considered slippage have the number of people who have received under the program? that and the criteria for accessing it, please?

MR. BYRNE: Under the program itself, there is MR. BYRNE: (Inaudible) National Child? a certain percentage that can, indeed, be unspent. MS. COFFIN: Yeah, National Child Benefit I’ll ask Walter if he would pick up the cause on Reinvestment. that. CHAIR: Mr. Byrne. MR. MAVIN: Thank you, Minister. MR. BYRNE: You asked the number of people Mr. Dinn, no, that would not be considered who had received that and what was the –? slippage. Our surplus for ’19-’20, in total, came in at a little over $3 million based on our audit. MS. COFFIN: Yeah, and the criteria – Under the LMDA, the way the total allocation is funded and flowed from the federal government MR. BYRNE: The criteria. is that annually we get a notification from the federal government of our total allocation. MS. COFFIN: – for being able to access it. Annually, we prepare an annual plan that’s submitted to the federal government to indicate MR. BYRNE: Sure. In terms of the criteria, which areas across the LMDA we are going to those numbers, I’ll ask Walter to … spend our funding. We also then follow up at the end of the year with a report to tell the federal MS. COFFIN: I just watched this go across government how we spent the money. about four people.

Of course, as priorities change throughout the MR. MAVIN: Yes, only twice. year, one of the benefits of the LMDA is that the minister has the authority to shift money from I’m going to ask Ms. King if she would program area to program area. In this case, in elaborate. this particular year, there were a couple of areas where, for example, under the apprenticeship CHAIR: Cynthia King. trades section for that training, it was in the early fourth quarter that we had projected that we MS. KING: Yes, a little fewer than a hundred were going to spend less money there, so we per month of our families in receipt of income actually reallocated that money back to the main support avail of the child care benefit. The child LMDA funding area, which would make up part care benefit is for unregulated child care. People of that $7 million. The idea of doing that was to who are able to access regular child care access try to utilize the maximization of the total the Child Care Services Subsidy Program LMDA budget. through the Department of Education.

CHAIR: Thank you. When an individual in receipt of income support has a type of employment where they work an Ms. Coffin. occasional overnight shift, for example, and generally they need someone to care for the MS. COFFIN: I’m not sure if Mr. Dinn had children overnight, this amount is intended to been finished with his questions. offset that cost. It isn’t intended to be the same fulsome benefit that you would receive through MR. P. DINN: (Inaudible.) the Child Care Subsidy Program for regulated child care. You can receive up to $400 per MS. COFFIN: Okay, all right. It’s going to be a month for the first child and up to $200 per little bit disjointed, but that’s fine. month for the second child. It depends on how

370 October 19, 2020 RESOURCE COMMITTEE many hours of child care you need during that just wanted to make sure she was going to be month. okay, because she has an infant and the infant is colicky and there’s another child and you just MS. COFFIN: Must be hard for someone who’s want to wrap them up and say, thanks for having working nights to manage with $400. Yeah, babies because our population is declining so that’s precarious for individuals. much, right?

Let’s move on to the Mother/Baby Nutrition Okay, so I think we probably touched on some Supplement. Recently I had a constituent who of the criteria. Do we have a sense of the number has had a baby. I followed up and had a little of people using or receiving this? chat with her about it and how are you managing, and she had been struggling a little MS. KING: Yes, the prenatal portion is about bit. I said: Have you accessed the Mother/Baby 125 families per month. Nutrition Supplement? She said no. My CA gave her a call and then did a little bit of MS. COFFIN: Okay, all right. investigation and was told that it wasn’t for postnatal. It was just prenatal. Have I gotten that Well, some people are having babies. Is that a wrong or have wires been crossed anywhere household income under $26,000? along the way? MS. KING: That’s household income, yes, CHAIR: Cynthia King. $25,457.

MS. KING: The prenatal portion is delivered MS. COFFIN: Oh, my goodness, there are 125 through this department. The postnatal portion people making less than $26,000 per year and gets tacked automatically onto your Canada having babies. That makes me cry a little. child benefit. Individuals, after a child is born, for the first year will continue to receive $60 per Okay, let’s talk about the number of people month, but it will be part of the Canada child using this and accessing it. I know last year we benefit. talked a little bit about the fact that we weren’t getting enough money out there. I did make a MS. COFFIN: The child benefit, does that – if suggestion that we reach out to the Status of you have a baby – forgive me; I have not had a Women and see if they could help access that. baby in long time so I’m not quite sure how this I’m just wondering: Have there any more works. Anyone who has a child will concerted efforts to try and reach more people or automatically be given the Canada child benefit are we reaching all of the people who are and then have the top-up automatically attached making less than $26,000 a year and having to that, no matter what their income? babies? Do we have a sense that we’ve reached them all? MS. KING: Yes. The $60 per month, it’s individuals who are of low income, so less then CHAIR: Minister Byrne. $25,457 per year is the cut-off. MR. BYRNE: Yes, I won’t ask staff to get MS. COFFIN: Okay. involved in questions of a political policy.

MS. KING: Individuals, once they have a baby The best conduit to provide this information and they receive the Canada child benefit, this would be through public health nursing $60 per month automatically becomes part of professionals. As you know, all mothers will that benefit. receive the services of a public health nurse, in terms of immunizations, in terms of health care MS. COFFIN: Okay, so all of their T4s align checks. What we believe to be true is the best with everything else and all that comes in. cause or course to be able to get this information out to make sure that all those expecting mothers I was wondering about this because I don’t think and postnatal mothers are aware of this is that this individual will be able to access it, but I through that particular profession. As well, there

371 October 19, 2020 RESOURCE COMMITTEE are other avenues through more public still give you this? Is there any local latitude to communications to be able to get that change the criteria that we can apply? information out as well. We would welcome any source and opportunity to get the word out far MS. KING: Yes, it is provincial policy and it and wide. I could be wrong, but I think that would be within our ability to make changes to through the public health nursing profession we the program. Of course, that analysis can be won’t miss very many mothers or expecting undertaken. mothers. MS. COFFIN: Wonderful. That would be a real MS. COFFIN: I certainly hope not. blessing, I’m sure, for anyone who’s having a child now. It’s not easy at the best of times; I guess if this is moving out through the Canada perhaps we can expand this a little bit. I just child benefit, then it’s pointless to go out to the want to spend $100,000 on making sure we have breastfeeding groups, because those are healthy moms and healthy babies. I think that wonderful support groups for mothers doing would be a lovely initiative right there. that. The Status of Women would be a spot; maternity wards would be a spot and then the Okay, I have 51 seconds. Awesome. Let’s go on pervasive Facebook, because I know that a lot of to 3.2.01, Employment and Training Programs. I people reach there and oftentimes are more note that Employment and Training Programs forthcoming on Facebook than they might be are highlighted in 3.2.01, 3.2.02 and 3.2.04. I with their public health nurse. I think that’s a know they’re for different individuals and key thing. they’re designed to target different sets of circumstances and different groups. Is there any Given that we’re only operating at about half, duplication of these? You probably can’t do this we’re not spending a $100,000, is there any in the 22 seconds, so maybe we will have to flip potential that we could raise the income over to Mr. Dinn, then Mr. Dinn and then come threshold so that people making $30,000 as a back to me. household income and having a baby can then afford to buy the food that’s going to make them I know that there are overlaps and I know that healthy while they are having this child? Is there there are different target groups; I’m just seeing any possibility that we could do something like that it sounds a lot like several of these things that? are doing very similar activities. Would there be any efficiencies associated with developing a lot MR. BYRNE: This particular program flows of these programs in one spot as opposed to four under the Early Childhood Development different spots? My time is up, so maybe we can Agreement, the national agreement. save that for later.

I’ll ask Cynthia to speak specifically to the CHAIR: Minister Byrne. single question of is this a national criteria or is there capacity to be able to create an exclusive MR. BYRNE: Yes, thank you. provincial model. A lot of the programming flows from federal- CHAIR: Cynthia King. provincial-territorial funding from the Labour Market Development Agreements, from the MS. KING: The income threshold is a national transfer agreements. threshold that we use for this program. Of course, we can always undertake a review of the Yes, there are some overlaps, and specifically policy for this particular program. so. For example, sponsorship to education programs, to post-secondary institutions and the MS. COFFIN: So this is not federally funded allowances there may look and feel somewhat but we follow federal guidelines. Do you have similar to the Canada Job Grant where we do any latitude in that to be able to say: Well, all provide some assistance for other types of right, maybe if you’re making $27,000, we can training. There are differences and nuances, and the programs are meant to be directed at specific

372 October 19, 2020 RESOURCE COMMITTEE client groups; for example, the funding for MR. MAVIN: Yes, it would’ve been apprenticeships, block funding for reallocated. Again, one of the areas that I noted apprenticeship training and wage subsidies for was the industrial training program, where there apprentices as they try to achieve their requisite was $2.5 million; also, from the College of the number of hours to be able to move from one North Atlantic, $2 million; and $4 million block to the other. reprofiled from LMDA, Allowances and Assistance. Again, it was reallocated and spent These are all important components that have on other priority areas. For example, it could’ve been designed to meet the specifics of the labour been spent on other components of the LMDA, market and the training requirements. I would such as wage subsidies, Job Creation suspect that if you were to put it all in one pot, Partnerships, Labour Market Partnerships, you’d quickly come to the realization that, you research and innovation. know what? It’s very, very difficult to make decisions from one pot. Perhaps the best answer MR. P. DINN: Thank you. is to make allowances for specific circumstances. The $2 million for the College of the North Atlantic, what was that spent on? The recipe that you are suggesting has its merits on its surface, but I think that you’ll also find MR. MAVIN: Again, when we pulled that that given the nature of the funding, the money back into the main LMDA, some of that requirements, the program requirements and could have gone to JCP, some of it could have eligibility requirements from their source, from gone to wage subsidies. It comes back into the the federal government – some of the funding departmental vote part of the LMDA and spent from the EI fund can only be used by EI-eligible across all program areas where there was a need. individuals. Some of the funding from the Workforce Development Agreement does not MR. P. DINN: Thank you. require EI eligibility. Some of the funding requirements for apprentices – and then even Moving to 3.2.04, Workforce Development within that group, a very responsible, positive Agreement, I have a similar question on move towards women apprentices. Salaries, seeing the Salaries are straight across the board again. No accounting for the 27th pay You’re seeing pockets of money, or envelopes period. Can I get an explanation on that, please? of money, designated for specific purposes and intentions. I think if that weren’t the case you’d MR. BYRNE: (Inaudible.) probably be asking for it, and for good reason. MR. P. DINN: I am too. CHAIR: Thank you, Minister Byrne. MR. BYRNE: A good explanation. I go to Mr. Paul Dinn. CHAIR: Debbie Dunphy, please. MR. P. DINN: Thank you, Mr. Chair. MS. DUNPHY: This is one of the areas where I just want to start where we left off with Mr. the staff budget – I’ll get into the exciting world Mavin on section 3.2.03, Labour Market of accounting in my role. What we’ve done here Development Agreement. We were talking is this is an allocation of salary dollars that we about the total amount there for the actuals for are allowed to claim or that we choose to claim 2019-20. I called it slippage, the little over $7 as a part of the Workforce Development million. Agreement.

Mr. Mavin was explaining what was done with The staff are working out in the regional offices that money. Am I correct in saying that dollar and at the end of the day we will do a journal figure was reallocated? Where? entry to transfer a portion of Salaries spent in other areas to this particular Workforce CHAIR: Walt Mavin. Development Agreement. It’s a notion, a

373 October 19, 2020 RESOURCE COMMITTEE nominal amount, as opposed to specific: we will the same as previous because we do not say these 10 individuals at exactly $60,000 each. anticipate that to reoccur.

It is a journal entry that’s done at the end of the MR. P. DINN: Thank you. year. If we do have a higher expenditure as a result of that 27th pay period, then it will be Moving along to Purchased Services, I’m not reflected in the actuals next year. sure if that’s a typo. Last year, we had over $669,000 budgeted, utilized $8,800 and nothing MR. P. DINN: Thank you. again for this year. Can you explain what’s happening there, please? Looking at the Operating Accounts – and I’m looking at Transportation and Communications MR. BYRNE: No, it’s not a typo; it’s a very – well, we spent about a tenth of what we had deliberate action that was taken. The system budgeted for. Can I get an explanation on that as upgrade work is now being completed primarily well? in-house by OCIO at no cost to the department. We’re using internal resources, as opposed to MR. BYRNE: This is a little bit of an anomaly contracting. in that staff land line costs, telephone charges, have been charged to the divisional budget. The MR. P. DINN: Thank you. costs are found elsewhere. Property, Furnishings and Equipment, again, MR. P. DINN: Thank you. $1,500 last year, not utilized, and we’re gone back to $1,500. Delay in utilizing it, or what’s Looking at the Supplies, budgeted $3,500 last the issue there? year. Didn’t use it and we have it back again this year. Again, what happened last year and what MR. BYRNE: As I’m informed, just no are we going to use it on? requirements in this area for 2019-20. There are some purchased services that may be required. MR. BYRNE: So, again, this was a decision that was taken within the financial accounting MR. P. DINN: Thank you. structure. Office supplies are now charged to the divisional budget as opposed to found within the I’m looking at the revenue amounts there now. Workforce Development Agreement. Federal revenue, again, I’m looking at that total amount of $6.5 million. Can I get an explanation MR. P. DINN: Thank you. of what’s happening there, from the actuals of last year? Moving along to Professional Services, again, we allocated $11,800 last year; we more than MR. BYRNE: I’m not even going to bother to doubled that last year in the actuals, and back try to wax eloquently about this. I’m just going down to $11,800 again. An explanation there as to turn it right over to Walter for him to wax well, please? eloquently – or Debbie, sorry, Debbie.

MR. BYRNE: So as you’re aware, under the CHAIR: Debbie Dunphy. federal-provincial transfer agreements, we have to provide independent audit work related to MS. DUNPHY: In 2019-20, we actually those agreements as part of the requirement. received the federal revenue for ’18-’19 in the There were some new agreement requirements 2020 year, as well as ’19-’20 year. It’s two that were audit requirements found within the years’ worth of revenue there. current agreement. These additional costs are one time only. So we’ve had some additional MR. P. DINN: Okay, gotcha. audit requirements that were one time only and that’s why it’s reflected that there was a $15,000 I’m looking at the $241 in provincial revenue. increase in the audit costs in Professional What would that be? Services last year. Yet, the budget item remains

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MS. DUNPHY: That was a mistake. CHAIR: Minister Byrne.

MR. P. DINN: I know it’s a small amount. MR. BYRNE: Yes, I think it’s fair to say we have. Earlier in this Estimates meeting, we MR. BYRNE: It was doughnuts. talked a little bit about some of those significant savings. Upwards of tens of thousands of dollars MR. P. DINN: Is that …? have been saved from video-conferencing services, the leasing or purchase of video- MS. DUNPHY: Oh, it was actually a mistake. conferencing services, going directly to PC- That should’ve been over in the Administrative based, laptop-based, Skype and so on. Yes, Support revenue. Again, with the shutdown in we’re already feeling the benefits of those March, some of our year-end entries – minor transitions. ones like this may not have been captured. MR. P. DINN: Okay, thank you. MR. P. DINN: Yes. Have to count my pennies, you know? I’ll pass it on.

MS. DUNPHY: Yes, I understand. CHAIR: Ms. Coffin.

MR. P. DINN: Just moving along. I looked at MS. COFFIN: (Inaudible.) Salaries here. You talked about a notional amount. There’s a contractual salary in this of CHAIR: We will go to Mr. Jim Dinn. about $108,045. Can I get an explanation of what that position is for? MR. J. DINN: Thank you, Chair.

MS. DUNPHY: A contractual salary under the As I understand it – and I’m just going back to Workforce Development Agreement? Or is it 3.1.01 – I think the answer was given that there under the –? was a drop of some 1,600 in caseloads after March. If I understand it correctly, at $800 MR. P. DINN: Well, actually, it’s probably roughly per recipient, that would have resulted under the Workforce Development Secretariat. in well over $1.25 million, I guess, in savings.

MS. DUNPHY: Yes, that is the director of I’m just wondering: Where would that be FLMM, the Forum of Labour Market Ministers reflected here in this? I’m looking at that drop in Secretariat. It’s a temporary two-year position that money. Where would that be reflected, that for the province to host the Secretariat. savings as such? Or would it be?

MR. P. DINN: Just for clarification: Is that fully MR. BYRNE: In this particular one, Income funded by feds or by the province? Assistance, 3.1.01, that would not be found in this particular section. Generally speaking, MS. DUNPHY: It’s cost-shared between all the income support would be found in a different provinces and the federal government, but it’s subhead or different line item. 100 per cent offset, yes. Cynthia, would you be able to take the charge MR. P. DINN: Thank you. up?

I look at the Transportation and CHAIR: Cynthia King. Communications pieces, the dollars and cents that we’ve been looking at. I mentioned it earlier MS. KING: Those savings, if any, or reduction about COVID and how we’ve become in caseload, are cumulative month over month. accustomed to doing more things online and So even though we reached 1,600, it was a few that. Have we looked across the department in hundred every month, month over month, since terms of savings that can be gotten under March. They would not have been budgeted communications, under those dealings? savings in the materials that we have before us.

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Those would be savings that we’re realizing as procedures in the reassessment piece and in the the year progresses. use of bridge funding to make sure they don’t go without. MR. J. DINN: So that wouldn’t be reflected anywhere here in this, that we would see this, in I’m assuming that with that comes an enormous the department in the line items? amount of paperwork, time, clerical work and administrative duties. I can only know that just MS. KING: No. from the work we do in our office in advocating for constituents that it’s more than a day; it MR. J. DINN: Just out of curiosity, then, with sometimes takes several weeks to get the person the reduction in caseloads, would these have the help that they need. been people who have, I think, aged out or would they have also been the people who were I’m just wondering if it would’ve been better in terminated as well from the program, from all around savings for the workload, the time, if receiving benefits? indeed the CERB had been exempt from income support, as recommended by the federal MS. KING: It would be a combination. As I government and End Homelessness, or treated as said, it’s a combination of people leaving as well income. I’m just looking at the amount of work as people not coming to us. About 400 people now that’s going to be in place as these people every month leave for all sorts of different come looking for supports. Certainly, it’s going reasons, aging out, other sources of income and to increase workload; it’s going to make our job, things like that. A little over 700 is our estimate even as MHAs, more difficult in trying to get of individuals who actually left the program to support for the people who are most in need of receive federal recovery benefits. it.

MR. J. DINN: If I may then, if they left to CHAIR: Minister Byrne. receive, is that something they did voluntarily or were their income support benefits terminated is MR. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chair; thank you what I’m trying to get at here. for the question.

MS. KING: Anybody who would have availed Myself and six members of our executive of of the federal recovery benefits would have done Immigration, Skills and Labour had an excellent so on their own and then reported to us that they conversation with End Homelessness St. John’s had other sources of income. about two weeks ago. One of the things that we had discussed was some of the assumptions that MR. J. DINN: And at that point then the End Homelessness St. John’s had made within income supports would have been terminated or their policy documents. They were unaware, for suspended? example, that while an income-assistance recipient transitioned to CERB, to the Canadian MS. KING: That’s right, yeah. Emergency Response Benefit, that they were under the assumption that they would lose all MR. J. DINN: Okay. supplementary benefits.

I’m just curious, then, and I’m just trying to look We were able to inform the executive director of at the efficiencies in the department, and there’s End Homelessness St. John’s that was incorrect. going to be an effect on people themselves, but I As we do with so many of our clients who find note that End Homelessness St. John’s have work, we want to make sure that those supports recommended two options: to fully exempt are available to them, those supplementary CERB from income support payments or to treat supports; things such as the drug card, amongst CERB as earned income. Either one, basically, other things. If an individual left income support would’ve negated the need to terminate income to go on the CERB, they would be able to retain support. Also, more importantly, as these people their supplementary benefits so that they would who come back now are going to be looking for not be disadvantaged. support desperately, you’ve outlined some of the

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From the point of view of the total value of there are individual circumstances that after income support versus the CERB, as Ms. King being on CERB for a period of four months the had mentioned, the average benefit under individual still finds themselves in a position of income support is $800. The CERB and the financial vulnerability, we can do an immediate current benefit, the Canada Recovery Benefit, payment to get them back in operation very, which will now be eligible up to September very quickly. 2021, provides assistance of $2,000 a month. With that said, you talked about the processing We chatted through this process about whether times would have been easier just to – with the or not someone was financially disadvantaged as paperwork being so onerous that it would be a result of moving to CERB and therefore not better just to ignore the regulation and move being able to receive their former income forward. In many cases – not in all cases but in support benefits. I think it was a very solid many cases – we may have a pre-existing conversation because End Homelessness St. relationship with the income support client; John’s did come to the realization that there was therefore, it’s not onerous to be able to process actually not less money but more money. If an that file. individual was eligible for the CERB or the post-CERB from the federal government, their With that said, I’ll just quickly turn it over to household or themselves personally would Ms. King to see if there’s anything that I may actually receive significantly more money. In have misspoken about or if there’s a detail that addition to that they’d also be able to maintain should be further clarified. their supplementary benefits in the process. MS. KING: No, actually, Minister, that On the question of the transition from CERB, or describes it very well. Individuals who were post-CERB, back to income support, if that was previously receiving income support, we would what would be required, End Homelessness St. have a lot of their baseline tombstone-type data John’s also made an assumption that the total in the system and it’s a matter of updating the amount of money that would be collected by the file. We will make every effort to expedite the recipient under CERB would then be calculated applications for people returning from CERB and would be used for the decision of when they and process it in a timely manner, recognizing could potentially be re-eligible for income that there is some financial insecurity that may support. There was an assumption that was made be experienced by some. by End Homelessness St. John’s that we were able to correct and they were very appreciative CHAIR: Thank you. of the correction. Mr. Paul Dinn. As Ms. King had said earlier, say, for example, someone was on CERB for four months and MR. P. DINN: Thank you, Mr. Chair. collecting $8,000 during the course of that four- month period. End Homelessness St. John’s had I’m looking at section 3.2.06, Youth and Student made the assumption that $8,000 would then Services. I’m looking at line 09, Allowances and significantly delay, to the extent of months, their Assistance. I see there was about $80,000 not eligibility to go back on income support. The spent last year and we’re back up to the folks that we spoke to were, I believe, very budgeted amount that we had back in 2019- reassured to hear – as Cynthia had explained to 2020. Can you explain that discrepancy, please? this Committee earlier this morning – that would not be the case. You would not delay the income MR. BYRNE: Funding in this area is for tuition support eligibility for a period of months by vouchers; expenses not incurred until later this calculating the full benefit of the totality of fiscal year, but estimated savings of $80,000, CERB and then determining outward. similar to 2018-2019. In this particular program the uptake was as described. We’re always What Ms. King had explained is that we can reaching out to try to get more uptake in that actually turn those applications around in days, particular area, but that’s consistent with last upwards of a maximum of three weeks. But if year.

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MR. P. DINN: Thank you. or form this is going to put undue hardship – it’s one thing for me in my situation to go without a I probably know the answer to this one, but I’ll cheque for a week or for a month or whatever ask it anyway. With relation to the tuition else. It would put some financial burden, but I vouchers and now, of course, where we had would be able to survive it easily enough. Not so many students going online, are we still for the people I serve who also dealing with allocating the same tuition vouchers with the mental health issues, struggling with addiction same amount? sometimes, struggling with precarious housing and a myriad of other issues. MR. BYRNE: Short answer: Yes, the tuition stayed the same. It’s the very people that I served with Saint Vincent de Paul and the people I served there MR. P. DINN: Tuition voucher is the same? and the reason we got into an affordable housing project, as well. MR. BYRNE: Yes, I believe so. Again, at this point in time, I don’t know if it’s MR. P. DINN: Thank you. too late, but, obviously, End Homelessness is very clear in that the best way is to – the two I’m looking at federal revenue. Last year’s options that they provided – and they still clearly budget: $300,000. Where did that come from support these to exempt CERB income from and how come it’s not showing up elsewhere? income support, or to treat it as earned income. Either way, in this case, the two options that MR. BYRNE: This is federal revenue under the they outlined in their letter to you of October 14 Digital Skills, which ended on March 31st of would be viable options. 2020. It sunsetted, the federal revenue did. The revenue related to Digital Skills for Youth I’m even understanding, like, an immediate Program was lower due to expenditures lower payment of some sort of a bridge funding is still than originally anticipated. – I don’t know what immediate means. Immediate means, to me, I need this, here’s the MR. P. DINN: Thank you. money, take it. I don’t know what it would take, but my experience in anything to do with I’m done with this section. government, it takes longer than – immediate has a very different and a vastly different CHAIR: Ms. Coffin. meaning than what it means to me for immediate, when I talk about immediate MS. COFFIN: (Inaudible.) assistance.

CHAIR: Mr. Jim Dinn. Immediate assistance, when I was with Saint Vincent de Paul, I need a hamper. We’ll have MR. J. DINN: Respectfully, Minister, I have to one with you within a half and hour. That’s disagree because I was speaking to the director immediate. Now, I don’t know what it means, of End Homelessness only last night. I do have but I know that people that we’ve helped with his letter that he sent to you with regard to that: housing and that, immediate is not that. It takes a “To be clear, EHSJ maintains that the best way while for it to happen. Usually what happens to ensure resilience for Income Support with us is that we end up going to try and get recipients in the face of changing financial and ask a food bank to maybe get immediate circumstances is to exempt CERB from Income assistance. Support recipients and eligibility requirements ….” Obviously, there is a gulf here in the I think this approach lacks a certain amount of understanding of that meeting. empathy. I think it needs to be revisited. I think, in many ways, it’s going to save the workload I’m still very much concerned that the people I and I think the stress level on the employees serve, that the people who call my office who who have to deal with and have to make this are very vulnerable and that in some way, shape decision. It would have been much better just

378 October 19, 2020 RESOURCE COMMITTEE simply to do as End Homelessness had MR. BYRNE: Mr. Chair, I don’t believe I heard suggested. a question, but I will respond to certain facts that should be responded to. They’re very much still committed to their position and that needs to be done. It’s about I would put the professionals within helping the vulnerable in this province. People Immigration, Skills and Labour up as probably who may not have any financial skills, who the most empathetic individuals I have ever met don’t have the ability sometimes to figure out in my entire life. Their relationships with their where their next meal is coming from and are clients are deep. It’s professional, but it’s often desperate. personal. I think that the notion that’s been cast that people are getting lost in a bureaucratic sea That’s about empathy, that’s about sympathy for is unfounded. It’s very much unfounded. the most vulnerable and for the people who have no agency, except sometimes to call their MHA The professionals, whether they be the social and look for help. Sometimes it’s the most workers, the client services officers, the front- frustrating aspect of my role as MHA in the line individuals who feel a fiduciary amount of time it takes for me to get help for responsibility, a duty to support those who are them and, in some cases, I still can’t. most vulnerable, I believe they perform their job incredibly well, and under difficult That’s the most frustrating aspect in my district, circumstances, no doubt. When you’re dealing the amount of homelessness, poverty, food with people who are vulnerable, when you’re insecurity, precarious housing arrangements, is dealing with people who deserve and need untenable. And I’m sorry, but anything that in empathy, they provide it. some way, shape or form means that they now have to reapply for an income support is Mr. Chair, we do have a program that is in place untenable, unacceptable and it’s placing them in to be able to provide assistance to those who an unfair and vulnerable position even more; need assistance. There are some details about we’re victimizing them even more. that that I believe are being misconstrued, that for the benefit of us all, not only as As far as I understand, the amount of money that parliamentarians here in this House, exercising was used in many cases, from the people I’ve our privileges and rights in this Committee, but spoken to, was used to buy a new bed – they also for the people outside of this House, we haven’t had a bed – or to buy new clothes. It’s really need to dig deep and to understand the not something that they went out and – I don’t consequences of decisions and the consequences know what kind of luxuries we think people of what we do and set as policy, so I do would have, but in many ways it was paying off appreciate the hon. Member’s commentary. debts. I can tell you, in Saint Vincent de Paul, the number of people who had owed money for The conversation that we had with End rent, for power bills, who were looking at having Homelessness St. John’s, I think, was very, very their power cut off, was horrendous. productive. It enabled the department to get further in touch with a significant community I’m sorry, I do not believe, based on my group and an umbrella group that represents conversation with the executive director of End many other groups within the province, Homelessness, that in any way, shape or form especially within the City of St. John’s, that are that they were dissuaded from their point of dedicated to fighting, overcoming poverty and view and stance on this. What they’re asking mitigating its effects in the short term. from the minister, from this government is a more humane and more empathetic approach to With that said, Mr. Chair, we really need to this, and less of a bureaucratic, administrative examine the facts as they exist. That is that there and clerical approach. We’re talking about were some assumptions; that when the six people, not numbers. executive members, when Fiona Langor, the deputy minister of Immigration, Skills and Thank you. Labour, sat in on this meeting, when Walt Mavin, the assistant deputy minister, sat in on

379 October 19, 2020 RESOURCE COMMITTEE this meeting, when Cynthia King sat in on this to transition to the Canadian response benefit meeting and when many other executives from and receiving that same amount. within the department sat in on this meeting, we did come to a more common, more general With that said, Mr. Chair, the point has been understanding that certain assumptions were made, and made clear by Ms. King and by her being made that were not valid, in fact. professionals, that should there be a circumstance where a vulnerability is exposed For example, what was communicated at that and that there is an uncertainty to the well-being point in time, the primary concern of End of the client looking to move from the CERB Homelessness St. John’s was access to back into income support, it has been said and it supplementary benefits which could, indeed, be has been done that the client, their individual cut off once income support had ended or had circumstances, will be assessed and assessed been removed as a result of receipt of the CERB, quickly and support given in a very, very timely that supplementary benefits would no longer be basis. at play, no longer be available. That was proven to be an incorrect assumption. I believe that End With that said, I will always monitor the Homelessness St. John’s really appreciated the activities of our client service officers and the clarification. approach that’s being taken and ensure that services are being provided in a timely basis. We also clarified the fact that while over the But as Ms. King said, we do have records of four-month period of CERB, Canadian former income support clients that are able to Emergency Response Benefit, provided by the speed that process up very, very fast. If there are federal government, some $8,000 would be circumstances where the individual, made available to the recipient. As Ms. King had notwithstanding the fact that they made more mentioned, the average income support benefit money on CERB than they probably would have per client was $800; over that some four-month made on – well, definitely made on income period the income support benefit would’ve support – if they find themselves in a post- been approximately, on average, $2,400. The CERB world, post-CERB environment, post- CERB was $8,000. There was no reduction in CERB situation that they have less money or income or reduction in financial capacity. There have increased financial needs, we can respond was an increase. to that and we will respond to that. We will respond to that with empathy. In the spirit of empathy, as the hon. Member speaks of, we do recognize that these are Mr. Chair, if Ms. King would like to add vulnerable clients; these are vulnerable people. anything further, if there’s anything further to But to say or to make the assertion that there add – I will not ask her to dabble in the matters was less money coming in to meet their basic of politics, but exclusively of policy – if there’s needs, that would not be true. It just simply something there that I’ve misspoken about or would not be true. The second point here is that said incorrectly, either in terms of the they would not lose supplementary benefits characterization of my conversation, which you while on CERB, such as the drug card, which is participated in as well, with End Homelessness so important to so many clients. The third St. John’s, if there’s anything that has been assumption here is that once the CERB was miscommunicated here, I ask you, I implore over, then of course they’re facing a lag time. you, I give you leave to correct for the record what that may be. As we know, the federal government has now offered additional equivalent benefits, the MS. KING: No, Minister, there’s nothing transition from CERB, the Canada Emergency further (inaudible) – Response Benefit, to a post-CERB federal benefit. There are three streams: a caregiver CHAIR: Cynthia King. Your light just came on. benefit; an employment insurance eligibility benefit; or a Canadian response benefit, which is MS. KING: Oh, sorry. basically very, very similar to the CERB benefit. Those who were on CERB before would be able

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No, Minister, there’s nothing further that I could CHAIR: Not on – add. MR. BYRNE: I’m more than happy to take CHAIR: Thank you. more questions (inaudible).

I’d like the Clerk to call the heading. MR. P. DINN: I think in openness and that, let’s – yeah. CLERK: 3.1.01 to 3.2.06. CHAIR: Sure, Ms. Coffin. CHAIR: 3.1.01 to 3.2.06 shall carry? MS. COFFIN: And I’m sorry for changing the All those in favour, ‘aye.’ order. I wanted to ensure that Mr. James Dinn has the opportunity to talk about Income SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye. Assistance before we went too far into 3.2.06. So I’m really sorry for any confusion that may CHAIR: All those against, ‘nay.’ have resulted as a result of that.

Carried. CHAIR: Please ask your questions.

MS. COFFIN: We weren’t finished with the MS. COFFIN: If it’s okay, may I? All right, questions. lovely.

CHAIR: Ms. Coffin, I asked you several times 3.1.02: We’ve already talked about the number if you wanted to ask questions and you had that had been received. In terms of the criteria deferred. for this, we talked about it being for low-income individuals. Can you tell me what the threshold MS. COFFIN: I’m sorry. It looked like Mr. for individuals receiving that, and is this also Dinn was (inaudible) finish. something that we can provincially adjust the threshold, like we could for the Mother/Baby CHAIR: He did not ask a question in his last 10 Nutrition Supplement? minutes. For the benefit of the – MR. BYRNE: I believe it comes with the same MS. COFFIN: (Inaudible) I wasn’t finished threshold as the Mother/Baby, $26,000 or with my questions. I just let you go ahead thereabouts. (inaudible). So are you saying that this is done now and I can’t ask anymore questions? Ms. King, would you be the right person to speak to whether or not it can, indeed, be subject CHAIR: It has been voted on, yes. to a policy review?

MS. COFFIN: Okay, I will put my questions in MS. KING: The child care benefit under the writing. National Child Benefit Reinvestment fund is intended for individuals in receipt of income MR. P. DINN: There was no vote yet. support. The threshold will be whether or not you are eligible to receive income support. It’s CHAIR: We just voted, yes. intended to provide a benefit that allows individuals in receipt of income support to MR. P. DINN: (Inaudible.) participate in the workforce and in training when they’re not able to receive child care that’s MS. COFFIN: Are you done with your regulated. This particular benefit is for questions? individuals in receipt of income support.

MR. P. DINN: No, no, I hadn’t voted MS. COFFIN: Okay. I think that’s where I was (inaudible). trying to get my head around. Because we’re underspending this by almost half, I was just

381 October 19, 2020 RESOURCE COMMITTEE wondering is there any way we can change the comprehensive suite of employment and training criteria to enable additional individuals to access programs and supports and services? Would it this. Given the nature of you have to be working fall there? overnight and you’re not using regulated stuff, I’m guessing no. MS. KING: Any activity that would be to benefit children we could look at. The second part of that question would then be: Can we repurpose this money for other things, MS. COFFIN: Okay, I’m trying to move pieces like housing? Or can it go to help people around together. supplement with their transportation costs, because we know our public transit is very We moved to 3.2.01 and it says: development incongruent to the places in which people work and implementation of a comprehensive suite. and the times in which people go to work. If I’ve just pointed out two potential changes that you’re working, for example, at a call centre and we could have: changing the Mother/Baby you get off at midnight, often buses have Nutritional Supplement and the National Child stopped running, so that incongruence there. Benefit Reinvestment. That’s two potential ones that if, say, next year this time – no. In six Is there any possibility that money can be months’ time, when we do this again, then when repurposed to better help support individuals as I ask the question which I’m going to ask now: opposed to letting half of it lapse every year? What is under development right now? You will be able to say: Hey, I’m going to do these two. CHAIR: Minister Byrne. You’ll also be able to tell me the follow-up to the answer to the question you’re going to give MR. BYRNE: Yes, within the vote itself, where me now: What’s being developed right now? they can, we do reprofile funds. On this particular example, I’ll see if we don’t do that. CHAIR: Cynthia King. Cynthia, I don’t know if … MS. KING: Every year we look at all of our CHAIR: Cynthia King. programs with a view to ensuring that we’re able to spend that money for its intended purpose. MS. KING: The funds under the National Child There’s always ongoing analysis of where the Benefit Reinvestment are intended to reduce money is being spent, who’s taking up those poverty for children. So the commitment that the funds, what those families look like and where province has made under that particular fund is they are located. That ongoing continuous that it directly impacts children, which is why improvement of our programs and services it’s intended for non-regulated child care. happens year in and year out, no different for these two particular budget areas. MS. COFFIN: Great. MS. COFFIN: Lovely. Okay, I look forward to Could it also apply for parents with children finding ways to spend the money we have not who have to go to work, and then they could spent for the people who need it the most. There take it as public transit? I mean, that certainly is no doubt. benefits the child as well. Is there that kind of latitude? Are there other ways in which we can Okay, let’s flip over to Employment manifest this money so we can give it to the Development Programs. I note that this is partly people who need it? I mean, this is where my federally funded. Can you give me a breakdown head is. of what Allowances and Assistance is versus Grants and Subsidies? Then I’ll maybe unpack MS. KING: It is provincial funding, so we have that a little further next, please. an opportunity, yes, to do some analysis. CHAIR: Minister Byrne. MS. COFFIN: That would be wonderful. I look forward to – would that fall under 3.2.01 on MR. BYRNE: In terms of the Grants and development and implementation of a Subsidies, funding is provided – for example,

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$1,368,000 under the Linkages programs, unnamed, no-application little pots of programs that you may be aware of. JobsNL discretionary funding in Grants and Subsidies in receives $860,000; Employment and 3.2.02? Development Supports, grants to agencies, received $3.9 million – $3,922,500. The Poverty MR. BYRNE: No. Reduction Strategy funding for community collaboration facilitators and transitions to work MS. COFFIN: Okay, so you’ll give me a full program receives $751,000. That’s under the list of that breakdown? Grants and Subsidies. MR. BYRNE: Yes. Under the Allowances and Assistance, basically funding is provided for Employment MS. COFFIN: That would be lovely. Development Supports at $800,000 and Adult Basic Education placement support at $562,000. In terms of the Labour Market Development The Allowances and Assistance line item is 90 Agreement, I understand that is fully funded. per cent federally funded. Once upon a time several lifetimes ago, I worked with several people sitting across from MS. COFFIN: Okay and the Grants and me and some of the stuff that we did were Subsidies are provincially funded, yes? Labour Market Development Agreements.

MR. BYRNE: Are provincial. I know that a lot of that programming has changed substantially over time. Do you have a MS. COFFIN: Okay, that’s lovely. comprehensive breakdown in the briefing booklet? Going back to my question on 1.2.03, we had that $21,000 grant or subsidy that didn’t have a MR. BYRNE: No, we don’t, but we can name. There was no application process and it certainly endeavour to provide you with seemed to be largely discretionary. Are any of additional information. those sitting in 3.2.02 or is all that money accounted for? If so, can I have a complete list MS. COFFIN: That would be wonderful. So of all of the Allowances and Assistance, Grants things like what programs are being and Subsidies programs and who’s received administered; who’s accessing them; how much them, please? money is going out; the types of employers that are being funded as well as the individuals that MR. BYRNE: You certainly can. I’m just going are being funded, including a breakdown of how to follow back on your question. So you said … much money they’re getting, what they’re being trained for, a gender and maybe a BIPOC – am I MS. COFFIN: When we were talking in 1.2.03 getting that right: Black, Indigenous, People of – so we can just flip back there a bit. I’m not Colour – breakdown of who’s accessing those. looking at that section; I’m just making That would be a lovely, lovely overview of the reference to the response. spending of $120 million, please.

MR. BYRNE: Right. MR. BYRNE: Yes, it probably would. I don’t know if we can provide you with a breakdown to MS. COFFIN: Section 10, Grants and that extent as to what proportion is going to Subsidies, there’s $21,000 there that had no Black or People of Colour clients, what name. It wasn’t a particular designated program. percentage. That may or may not be captured. There was no application process associated with this. It was my understanding that it was a MS. COFFIN: As detailed a breakdown as you little bit discretionary, to be able to fund things can get would be lovely. In particular, gender that didn’t really fit in anything else. and Indigenous or a breakdown of as broad a swath of individuals as we can, just to get a Of this $6.9 million that we’re seeing in Grants sense of who we are helping and if it’s actually and Subsidies, are there any more of those working. That would be the other part.

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MR. BYRNE: One of the things, in terms of Yes, so the Workforce Development Agreement identifying particular groups or client is one of our two labour market transfer demographic, questions are not asked if it’s not agreements: the Labour Market Development necessarily – if the federal program itself is not Agreement and the Workforce Development designed specifically for priority outreach to Agreement. We negotiated these agreements Indigenous, for example, we may not necessarily with the federal government a number of years collect that information because it would be ago. We are currently in year four of six-year gratuitous to the purpose. We’ll provide it to you agreements for both. as best we can. The distinction between the two agreements: one MS. COFFIN: Quite often, many of these would be that the LMDA is primarily focused on things are voluntary as well, as is gender or EI beneficiaries, whereas the Workforce sexual preference and religion. But if that’s there Development Agreement allows us to work with that’d be lovely to have a look at. non-EI eligible clients and it gives us flexibility along the client basis. CHAIR: Thank you, Ms. Coffin. I just – MS. COFFIN: Okay. So Workforce MS. COFFIN: Yeah, I see. Development could include someone who is re- entering the workforce after maybe someone CHAIR: – go back to Mr. Dinn, if he has took six years off to raise a family. You further questions in this section. wouldn’t be EI eligible but you could come in the Workforce Development Agreement, MR. P. DINN: I do not. correct?

CHAIR: Okay. MR. MAVIN: Yes, that’s correct, depending on the circumstances. Ms. Coffin, would you like to try and clue up this section, just in lieu of the Committee and MS. COFFIN: All right. I’m having some the time? I will afford you more time to ask familiarity with this. It’s just good to have a questions in this section. little bit of a breakdown between these.

MS. COFFIN: I do appreciate that. This Perhaps along this there are a range of programs shouldn’t take much longer. The questions are and services for a range of different individuals. going to look a lot like some of the other I’m going back to a little comment that Minister questions we’ve already seen. Byrne had mentioned a bit earlier. One of the reasons why the pots of money are so segregated Workforce Development Agreement, I see here: is because they, of course, focus on different Is that entirely federally funded? It doesn’t seem groups or different times in people’s to be, but if you can give me some sense of if development, or different accessibilities or it’s entirely federally funded or not? different types of services that needed to be provided. MR. BYRNE: This particular section here is for, for example, the Salaries and other things, When I was working with this department in a but it is a federally funded program. Walt Mavin similar – well, in a policy development capacity may be able to provide some – it’s a partnership here, one of the things that we were looking at between the province and the federal was the continuum of services, so whether an government. individual stopped working for a variety of reasons and then started on income support. Mr. Mavin, if you would jump in here. Then, made it to income support and from income support they could have moved to a CHAIR: Walt Mavin. Workforce Development Agreement. Then, from there they could have moved to the Labour MR. MAVIN: Thank you, Minister. Market Development Agreement and from there they may have become gainfully employed

384 October 19, 2020 RESOURCE COMMITTEE along the way. Certainly I know that there had committee which regularly looks at the different been an initiative to track individuals and to see interventions and looks at the impact of those what their attachment to these programs and interventions. There is some information that’s services were, or the flip side of that would be available based on that, that can be shared. their attachment to the labour market. MS. COFFIN: That would be wonderful. Do you have any data or have you been tracking Perhaps sometime we can arrange for an individuals through these continuum of services? overview of the programs and services, because I know that you could be on income support but I imagine the role of this particular department is receiving partial subsidies for a variety of things, going to become even more pertinent as we and then going back to work and maybe make our way through the rest of this year and accessing something from the Workforce into next, for sure. Development Agreement, or you could be accessing something from Youth and Student Okay, let me flip back over to here now – Services. Do you have a sense of that, how our Workforce Development Agreement. caseloads have been changing and what services Employment Assistance Programs for Persons individuals receive? Do they actually leave and with Disabilities: That’s only half funded or move on to gainful employment or at least some about a third funded from the federal form of self-sustainability? Do we have senses government, yes? of that? MR. MAVIN: It is partially funded by the MR. MAVIN: Yes, and people actually do federal government. The remaining funding is leave. We do hear on occasion – and I say more provincial. often than you would think – feedback from our clients who we’ve supported. It might have been Prior to the negotiation of the Workforce with a single intervention or it might have been Development Agreement, we had a separate with multiple interventions over the course of a federal-provincial agreement: the Labour Market year or two who find their way in the labour Agreement for Persons with Disabilities. market. These could have been people in receipt of income support, or they may have been, as MS. COFFIN: Is that JEEPS? you indicated, someone who had been out of the workforce for a number of years who’s just re- MR. MAVIN: Sorry? entering and is looking for access to training and/or some other labour market attachments. MS. COFFIN: JEEPS? How long ago was that?

One of the things, when we renegotiated the two MR. MAVIN: That one doesn’t ring a bell with labour market transfer agreements, part of that me, sorry. The former LMAPD is part of the negotiation was the implementation of a Workforce Development Agreement – all that performance measurement strategy, which now funding – with a requirement, of course, that we involves the federal government. There is allocate 30-plus per cent of our funding under information that we’re collecting on a client the Workforce Development Agreement to basis. Some of that information is done on a per- support persons with disabilities. program case. One of the areas that we’re looking into is doing across the continuum MS. COFFIN: Lovely. because you’re right, the guiding principle of supporting someone from their current MR. MAVIN: The federal funding coming in circumstances to employment labour market here is actually coming from the Workforce attachment is along a continuum, and it’s not Development Agreement. necessarily always a straight line to that end result. MS. COFFIN: All right, well, that’s good to know. Yes, we do have some of those indicators. For example, under the Labour Market Development So this is very different than the folks in the Agreement, we’re part of a national evaluation Public Service Commission who are being

385 October 19, 2020 RESOURCE COMMITTEE employed who have disabilities, because they’re What I understand, or the impression I’m getting being employed in the provincial government. from your response is that these individuals are This is for individuals to get new skills and to not being tracked beyond: you are given these help them find jobs elsewhere, not necessarily in skills and good luck unless you come back, and the provincial government, correct? then we’ll track you some more. Is that what I am to understand here? MR. MAVIN: That’s correct. MR. BYRNE: No, I wouldn’t agree with the MS. COFFIN: Okay, good, thank you. premise of your question.

Let’s flip over to Youth and Student Services MS. COFFIN: Okay. now. There’s not very much federal revenue there. How many students are we getting and are MR. BYRNE: We have a number of different we keeping them? Do we know if we’re keeping programs that do provide outreach. Many of our the kids that we’re educating? subsidies, our wage opportunities go to private sector employers; some go to public sector CHAIR: Minister Byrne. employers. The Community Sector Council, for example, has an incredible program where they MR. BYRNE: I’m not sure if the hon. Member outreach with the community at large, and they is referring to post-post-secondary training or – do follow-up work as well. in terms of the assistance to some of the most vulnerable, such as that provided through I guess in terms of tracking future performance, Linkages and other things, if the hon. Member multiple-year personal decision-making, no. I could elaborate on what specific statistic you’re think from a student employment point of view, looking to …? the blunt answer is, no, we wouldn’t necessarily track from a student employment point of view MS. COFFIN: Are the youth and students who what their next career move is. are receiving this assistance, when they get them and they are attaining and maintaining an MS. COFFIN: All right. I have this much more employment, are we keeping them here in I want to finish up. Newfoundland and Labrador? Or are we training them and sending them off elsewhere? CHAIR: Go ahead.

MR. BYRNE: These are not necessarily MS. COFFIN: Thank you. training, some of these are for student, youth and employment and internship. So many of these The reason I ask this is once upon a time the wage subsidies would be for those already Labour Market Development Agreement – and I engaged on a track towards post-secondary think there was another program – used to track education. Some of these programs are for youth post-secondary graduates. Once you got your at risk. So if you’re asking the question: Are we training, you were asked if you got a job, was it tracking students in a post-post-secondary in a related field, how much income were you environment? I think that would be most making: things like that. I think, perhaps, I was appropriate for you to raise that question with just mapping that over in my mind and the Department of Education. wondering if there was any tracking of these individuals once they receive these services. It MS. COFFIN: I’ve spoken to Education and seems like sometimes there is; sometimes tracking students. This kind of goes to there’s not. immigration, not really immigration, I guess; it goes to population development. I guess it kind Perhaps when you get the next summary or of goes across a variety of different government annual report from the individuals who have departments. I was most concerned with are the received these grants and subsidies, like the youth that we are giving these opportunities to, Community Sector Council, then I’ll have a are they staying in Newfoundland and Labrador. better sense then of any continuity, if they have been doing that tracking.

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I guess the follow-up question here is the same CHAIR: Shall the 3.1.01 to 3.2.06 inclusive question that I asked with respect to the last carry? Grants and Subsidies. We have almost $6 million here in Grants and Subsidies: Can I have All those in favour, ‘aye.’ a complete list of those Grants and Subsidies, as well as the Allowances and Assistance; the SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye. number of individuals receiving them; a breakdown by gender as best as possible; and CHAIR: All those against, ‘nay.’ the types of skill supports and trainings that they’re receiving? So a breakdown of how we’re Carried. spending $6 million. On motion, subheads 3.1.01 through 3.2.06 Then the subsidiary question would be: Is there carried. any money there that’s not accountable for? Do we have another little pocket of money like we CHAIR: I’ll ask the Clerk to call the remaining had back in 1.2.03, that doesn’t have a name, an subheads. application process and is what seems to be discretionary? CLERK: 4.1.01 to 4.1.06 inclusive.

MR. BYRNE: The answer to the latter question CHAIR: Shall 4.1.01 to 4.1.06 inclusive carry? is no, but the answer to the former is yes. Mr. Dinn. MS. COFFIN: Wonderful. MR. P. DINN: Thank you. MR. BYRNE: Most of this information is actually available online already, but we can I’m looking at section 4.1.01 and, again, starting provide it to the extent that we possibly can in with Salaries, I see the dip in Salaries last year terms of the fullness of it. from the budgeted to the actuals and then an increase as well. Can I get an explanation on MS. COFFIN: Much appreciated. Thank you that, please? very much. MR. BYRNE: On the Salaries you ask: Why are That’s my questions for this section. the 2019-2020 actuals down by approximately $290,000 from the original budget? CHAIR: Thank you. We did have to recruit several positions and the Just to clarify from earlier, where Mr. Jim Dinn movement of individuals within the department is not an official Member of the Committee, for other opportunities. There were people who typically they would ask after everybody had moved within the department which caused questioned. So Mr. Paul Dinn had said he had no vacancies. The Estimates are down in large further questions. You had been saying no measure from 2019-2020 in the budget. questions so – The Atlantic Workforce Partnership, there was a MS. COFFIN: (Inaudible), I understand. reprofile of salary funding to reflect actual requirements, that was $32,000. There was a CHAIR: – I didn’t want to delay proceedings or divisional Workforce Development and not allow you to have your questioning, and you Productivity Secretariat, we adjusted Salaries to had many questions. match the actual requirements, which accounted for $31,000, and additional funding added to I’ll ask the Clerk to call the heading again and cover the 27th pay period in that particular case. we will vote on section 3.1.01. MR. P. DINN: Thank you. CLERK: 3.1.01 to 3.2.06 inclusive.

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I’m looking at Transportation and I wasn’t suggesting that we be the odd person Communications. We saw it budgeted last year out or odd province out. It’s just that I think of for just under $60,000, less than half was the travel restrictions on us – and when I say us, utilized and now we’re budgeting for two-thirds I mean all provinces and territories – that there of what it was previously. Can I get an may be opportunity to look forward and see explanation there as well? some savings that could be had here. I certainly see the value in face to face, but I also see where MR. BYRNE: A lot of the travel here is related we stand right now. We’re trying to move to FPT in-person meetings. There were less than towards a digital operation, as this government anticipated travel expenses related to federal- has come in with a department responsible for provincial in-person meetings. There was an that area. So I would like to see us explore more adjustment to the budget to reflect the actual opportunities there in terms of Skype, or Zoom spending for 2020-21 for this division for the or whatever. Forum of Labour Market Ministers and for the AWP. I’ll just move along here. I’m looking at Purchased Services. A huge drop in actuals last MR. P. DINN: Thank you. year that was utilized and then we doubled it for this year, Purchased Services. We’re $65,000 in And mentioning the FPT in-person meetings, is 2019-20, dropped to $2,500 and now we’ve there an opportunity there to reduce this amount doubled it to about $120,000. more with online meetings and such? MR. BYRNE: Yeah. On the Purchased MR. BYRNE: Thank you for the question. I Services, expenses related to certain trade shows don’t know if Newfoundland and Labrador were not as high as anticipated, which led to would want to be the odd one out to participate some $62,000 in reductions. That $62,881 not in a national meeting of 14 partners – three only was in relation to those trade shows, but territories, the federal government and the 10 also in-person meetings related to exactly what provinces – and for us to be the only ones to you just spoke of, which was hosting for the participate virtually. Forum of Labour Market Ministers and the AWP were indeed lower. I will say that in my own experience, a lot of business gets done face to face at these things. The hon. Member’s point, Mr. Chair, is well We don’t have regular contact with a lot of our taken, that in a COVID environment travel and counterparts, and in my own experience, travel costs would be anticipated to be smaller. personally, I always find that the meeting before With that said, we still have to budget, we have the meeting is often the best meeting. Just being to presume that we may need that money and able to work, establish relationships, establish then we can certainly deal with it once the facts networks, establish alliances – both within the become more clear to us. Atlantic, within other provinces, with common cause – it does make for a much more effective MR. P. DINN: Thank you. experience and a much more efficient experience for Newfoundland and Labrador. I would assume that this budget was not zero While there are countless – countless – meetings based? that are conducted by teleconference and video conference, there is still a certain value to MR. BYRNE: Well, budgeting, we always meeting face to face, meeting shoulder to conduct reviews of all line items. There’s kind shoulder, while maintaining COVID protocols, of a constant reference to zero-based budgeting. and having these discussions where you do find In terms of anomalies, you’re referring to travel where you’re similar as opposed to what costs amid COVID, we have to be prudent and separates you. we can’t reduce a budget when we know there’s a possibility that the budget may be fully MR. P. DINN: Thank you. required.

MR. P. DINN: Good answer. Thank you.

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You don’t have your crystal ball, no? that were lower than we had anticipated. Those monies were voted on and budgeted through the MR. BYRNE: I think that’s what I’m saying. FLMM and AWP cycles prior to our provincial budget cycle. MR. P. DINN: Moving to Property, Furnishings and Equipment, we see a huge drop there, as MR. P. DINN: Thank you. well, last year in unused budget, and gone back up again. Explanation on that, please. I’m looking at the federal revenue and the provincial revenue. Can I get an explanation on MR. BYRNE: The actuals were $22,000 down where that’s coming from, please? from the original budget. There was some deferral of an annual allocation within the MS. SPURRELL: A similar answer as Forum of Labour Market Ministers Secretariat previous. The budget for FLMM was actually budget to provide us, as the hosting province, for greater than was originally projected. Thus that costs associated with hosting the secretariat. We reduced the PT portion of the revenue. So you were able to forego those costs, they were a one- will see under federal revenue the federal off, and so our estimates for next year are down portion was greater than we had anticipated it to as well. There was a decrease of $5,300 to be and the provincial portion was offset. reflect the anticipated expenditures for ’20-’21, which kind of goes to the zero-based budgeting You may go on to ask about – there’s a delay in within the Forum of Labour Market Ministers. one of the provinces paying in, so it didn’t come Within the AWP there was a decrease of $1,000 in this year and it’s picked up in the revenue as to reflect lower anticipated expenditures. well.

MR. P. DINN: Thank you. CHAIR: Thank you for that.

I’m looking at number 10 there, Grants and MR. P. DINN: Okay. Subsidies. Can I get an explanation on where that money has been going and what it entails? I CHAIR: Mr. Dinn, your time has expired. know it fluctuated a little bit, but I’m more looking for some explanation on what it is. Before I go to Ms. Coffin, I would like to advise that we have – I know we had technical issues MR. BYRNE: Walter, would you be the best that caused a bit of a delay when we started. But one to handle this one? I’m just looking at some we have gone over our three-hour allocation of the notes here. typically set for the Estimates Committee meeting to go through the subheads. I recognize MS. SPURRELL: (Inaudible.) that we’re not through all the subheads. I would either have to defer to the Committee or to the CHAIR: Dana. minister, given that the Assembly will be sitting at 1:30 today, that we would either be able to MR. BYRNE: Dana, sorry. continue for a few more minutes and vote or we would have to look at reconvening another MS. SPURRELL: The accounting for this item meeting of Estimates. So we would need to have is a little convoluted because we have all of the a decision point on this matter. provincial and federal funds that come in for a lead province as the Forum of Labour Market MS. COFFIN: Did you say that we had to Ministers and the Atlantic Workforce vacate the Chamber by 12:45 in order for Partnership. Under the Grants and Subsidies, a cleaning? lot of that money is federal-provincial money that comes in and then it’s paid back out via CHAIR: I believe that’s – Newfoundland and Labrador for the working groups under those secretariats. So, under Grants MS. COFFIN: I think five minutes is perhaps and Subsidies, there are some savings there inadequate to be able to ask enough questions. related to FLMM working group expenditures

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CHAIR: I guess that would be – I’ll hear from CHAIR: As I said, the allocation of time that other people, but – has been set for Estimates is a three-hour time slot to ask these particular questions. I put it to AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible.) the floor. The minister has advised that he’s provided his three hours and if there are further CHAIR: Minister, we have the option of either questions that they can be put in writing and voting, because the three-hour allocation has responses would be provided. been awarded for Estimates, as is provided. It’s at the discretion of the department if they want Yes, Mr. Dinn. to continue going past – I know we had technical issues, but we have had more than three hours MR. P. DINN: Mr. Chair, I understand that, but going through the Estimates of your department. I know in practice other Committees have been We have to conclude the meeting by 12:45 to extended, and that’s all the leeway I’m asking allow for cleaning and matters to happen. So it’s for here, just a further extension. a matter of do we vote on the subheads now and the Estimates and maybe officials would provide MS. COFFIN: I concur with Mr. Dinn as well. answers or you can provide answers at some (Inaudible) a huge chunk of the budget and other venue or we reconvene the Committee. we’re being asked now to vote on spending a lot of money without being able to examine it MR. BYRNE: Mr. Chair, we have three hours appropriately and as our fiduciary duty would for Estimates. That is our standard practice. suggest we must. So I will have to vote against We’ve already extended over. If Members have this as well. additional questions they can put them in writing. MR. BYRNE: Mr. Chair, we did allocate time. One Member went on for about 10 minutes and CHAIR: Okay. never asked a question. Members have to respect and appreciate that they are the masters of their With that, I ask the Clerk to call the remaining own house, in the sense that the time consumed subheads. to offer commentary as opposed to question is something they will have to examine for CLERK: 4.1.01 to 4.1.06 inclusive. themselves.

CHAIR: Shall 4.1.01 to 4.1.06 inclusive carry? I have no problem whatsoever with providing additional time. Normally, we would be able to All those in favour, ‘aye.’ do that. We’re already over the time expended, the three hours. We’ll have to schedule, because MR. P. DINN: Question, please. there are certain times that we will be able to reschedule down the road. This will obviously CHAIR: We’re voting. be time that comes off of the Estimates and the budgetary process, which the Opposition will All those in favour, ‘aye.’ have to accept. That’s not my call.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye. If Members want, at a future time, to convene to go through the final subheads, if we can CHAIR: (Inaudible.) complete four, these subheads, and then we can get to the final subheads, then I wouldn’t have a All those against, ‘nay.’ problem. But it will have to be at our mutual convenience because every time slot from here Mr. Dinn. on in is already consumed.

MR. P. DINN: I vote against. CHAIR: Okay, thank you, Minister.

No, I would prefer to reconvene, because we It seems like the Committee, from what I’ve have quite a few areas to go through. heard from the Members who are here and the

390 October 19, 2020 RESOURCE COMMITTEE vote, that people would like to continue to have we are simply doing our fiduciary duty. further time to discuss, so we’ll have to try to Unfortunately, it’s not an evening session and find a mutually agreed-upon time to reconvene we are bumping up against a time constraint. the Committee. Last time I looked at the Estimates process, I think that Thursday morning and Thursday MR. BYRNE: With that said, Mr. Chair, we evening are both available, as well as Monday have to get this process done within the budget morning and evening of next week. cycle. I’m unfamiliar with what this does in terms of the budget itself. I would seek some Given that we have a limited budget discussion, counsel on this. Are they deemed adopted if where we have limited debate on the budget, they’re not approved within a certain period of unless the Clerk can tell us that we’re bumping time? Because all I know is that every up near the end of that – and I doubt very much Committee slot is now occupied for a period of if we are – on the number of hours we hold time, so convening this group is going to be debate on the budget; unless someone is difficult. planning on holding a vote on the budget sometime between now and next Thursday, or I have no issue whatsoever with extending the this coming Thursday, I think we ought to have period of time. I mean, I’ve sat here for 4½ ample time to be able to do that. I would be hours one night. That’s not an issue for me. It’s more than willing to convene at the pleasure of getting this done and getting this done properly. the Chair and, of course, at the convenience of I cannot control some of the questions or some the department. of the comments that were made. Was there judicious use of time by Members of the And I do thank you very much for your time and Committee? I don’t know. I’ll leave that to their efforts. own considerations. Thank you. Normally, three hours is allotted for a meeting and three hours is what is expended to get the CHAIR: Thank you. job done. Obviously, for various reasons, we’re looking for more. So what happens next is my It’s also reconvening all Committee Members as consideration. We can convene, but I have to get well. There are seven of us that sit on this all of this executive back together again. We besides the Chair. I don’t know if any of the four have to find a slot to be able to do it in a timely other Members had anything they’d like to add – I did not cause the House to open at 1:30. or contribute, because it’s ultimately the We’re facing a bit of a time crunch. I did not Committee’s decision to decide if we would vote cause the House needing to be cleaned for on the particular line items and conclude our COVID protocols. Estimates or if we would have to find time to reconvene. It’s up to the Committee Members to With that said, if these Estimates are deemed make that determination. I’ve heard from two adopted, if they cannot occur at a particular Members, but there are four other Members who point in time, if I understand that correctly, then are sitting here as well. that’s fine. I will do everything I can to reconvene. I will commit to that. But I can’t MHA Trimper. have the budget sort of held up unnecessarily. MR. TRIMPER: Thank you, Mr. Chair. So I seek your advice, Mr. Chair. I guess I would support the Third Party Leader’s CHAIR: Ms. Coffin. motion that we attempt to defer, if that’s possible. As the minister has rightly pointed out, MS. COFFIN: Thank you. we may run into a crunch. If that is the case, then the outstanding headings are read into the I don’t think we’re looking to assign blame record and are approved. anywhere. I just think that we have a large department with an enormous budget and I think

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This doesn’t necessarily cause a catastrophe, but A motion to adjourn. we will endeavour to see if there’s an opportunity to reconvene. MS. DEMPSTER: (Inaudible.)

Thank you. CHAIR: The MHA for Cartwright - L’Anse au Clair. CHAIR: Okay. Thank you. The other point that we have is we voted on the headings that we have voted on in the Estimates On motion, the Committee adjourned. process; we’ll have to look to reconvene the particular meeting. I don’t know if there’s another Member who has something they’d like to say, a point to the actual motion. I’ll give anybody an opportunity.

Other than that, we have the minutes from the Resource Committee that had met on October 8 for the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts and Recreation. I would ask for a mover to accept the minutes.

MR. DAVIS: (Inaudible.)

CHAIR: The Minister of Tourism, Culture, Arts and Recreation, the MHA for Virginia Waters - Pleasantville.

We’ll provide notice when the Committee can reconvene to go through clauses 4.1.01 to 5.2.01.

With that, I would ask for a motion to adjourn.

CLERK: We need to vote on the minutes.

CHAIR: Oh, we need to vote on the minutes, sorry, before I recognize the motion.

The minutes were moved by the minister, but I ask: Shall the minutes carry?

All those in favour, ‘aye.’

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye

CHAIR: All those against, ‘nay.’

Carried.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: Getting a little ahead of myself.

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