PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE NO. 5 - LEGAL AFFAIRS Friday, 26 February 2021 Examination of proposed expenditure for the portfolio area FAMILIES, COMMUNITIES AND DISABILITY SERVICES CORRECTED The Committee met at 9:30. MEMBERS The Hon. Robert Borsak (Chair) The Hon. Rose Jackson The Hon. Trevor Khan The Hon. Taylor Martin The Hon. Penny Sharpe Mr David Shoebridge (Deputy Chair) The Hon. Natalie Ward PRESENT The Hon. Gareth Ward, [Minister for Families, Communities and Disability Services] CORRECTIONS TO TRANSCRIPT OF COMMITTEE PROCEEDINGS Corrections should be marked on a photocopy of the proof and forwarded to: Budget Estimates secretariat Room 812 Parliament House Macquarie Street SYDNEY NSW 2000 Friday, 26 February 2021 Legislative Council Page 1 The CHAIR: Welcome to the public hearing for the inquiry into budget estimates 2020-21. Before I commence, I acknowledge the Gadigal people, who are the traditional custodians of this land. I also pay respect to Elders past, present and emerging of the Eora nation and extend that respect to other Aboriginals present. I welcome Minister Ward and accompanying officials to this hearing. Today the Committee will examine the proposed expenditure for the Families, Communities and Disability Services portfolio. Today's hearing is open to the public and is being broadcast live via the Parliament's website. In accordance with broadcasting guidelines, while members of the media may film or record Committee members and witnesses, people in the public gallery should not be the primary focus of any filming or photography. I also remind media representatives that they must take responsibility for what they publish about the Committee's proceedings. The guidelines for the broadcast of proceedings are available from the secretariat. All witnesses in budget estimates have a right to procedural fairness according to the procedural fairness resolution adopted by the House in 2018. There may be some questions that witnesses could only answer if they had more time or with certain documents to hand. In these circumstances, witnesses are advised that they can take a question on notice and provide an answer within 21 days. I remind Minister Ward and the accompanying officers that they are free to pass notes and refer directly to advisers. Any messages from advisers or members' staff seated in the public gallery should be delivered through the Committee secretariat. We expect the transcripts of this hearing to be available on the internet from tomorrow morning. Finally, could everyone turn their mobile phones to silent for the duration of the hearing. PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE NO. 5 - LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRECTED Friday, 26 February 2021 Legislative Council Page 2 SIMONE WALKER, Deputy Secretary, Strategy, Policy and Commissioning, Department of Communities and Justice, sworn and examined MICHAEL COUTTS-TROTTER, Secretary, Department of Communities and Justice, sworn and examined PAUL VEVERS, Deputy Secretary, Housing, Disability and District Services, Department of Communities and Justice, sworn and examined SIMONE CZECH, Deputy Secretary, Child Protection and Permanency, District and Youth Justice Services, Department of Communities and Justice, affirmed and examined PAUL O'REILLY, Executive Director, Youth Justice, Department of Communities and Justice, affirmed and examined The CHAIR: Today's hearing will be conducted from 9.30 a.m. until 12.30 p.m. with the Minister and from 2.00 p.m. until 5.00 p.m. with departmental witnesses, with questions from Opposition and crossbench members only. If required, an additional 15 minutes is allocated at the end of each session for Government questions. As there is no provision for any witness to make an opening statement for the Committee commences questioning, we will begin with questions from the Opposition. The Hon. PENNY SHARPE: Minister, the child death report that was tabled in Parliament late last year said that there were 97 deaths of children known to the department in 2019. That is a 4 per cent increase from 2018 but, perhaps more seriously, a 16 per cent increase since 2012. How do you account for the increasing number of deaths of children known to the department? Mr GARETH WARD: Good morning, Ms Sharpe. Every child death is a tragedy. The numbers are relatively—given the numbers, any change can obviously have a significant percentage increase or decrease either way. But the reason we publish the report is so that there can be transparency about these matters, and we will continue to do that. The Hon. PENNY SHARPE: Sure, but the numbers show an increase; how do you explain that? Mr GARETH WARD: Do you want to answer that, Mr Coutts-Trotter? Mr COUTTS-TROTTER: When you look at most children who are the subject of a reportable death review and the description is known to the department, most children who die do so as a result of disease and natural causes. The Hon. PENNY SHARPE: Yes. Mr COUTTS-TROTTER: If you look at the proportion of children who die either by suicide or in suspicious circumstances, the rate is fewer than one child per 100,000. That rate, to the best of my recollection, has remained constant. Mr GARETH WARD: And of that 97, Ms Sharpe, my understanding is that—and I am sure I will be corrected if I am wrong—three of the child deaths are currently subject to inquiry by—or charges have been laid, another three are subject to inquiry and one was a murder-suicide. The Hon. PENNY SHARPE: My interest in this is that these children have been reported as being at risk of serious harm, sometimes multiple times—and we will get to that. But of all the deaths of children, and you can quote as many numbers as you like—and I do not really want to get into this—18.5 per cent of the 518 children who died in New South Wales in 2019 were known to the department. That is an over-representation. Mr COUTTS-TROTTER: And that has remained constant for 10 years. The Hon. PENNY SHARPE: Yes. The point being that supposedly under our child protection system someone would have been alerted to the issues in these children's lives, and they are still dying and they are over-represented in deaths. Mr GARETH WARD: Just to be clear, Ms Sharpe—and again, I will be corrected if I am wrong—90 of the 97 related to instances involving a complex disability or a health or medical issue that was not related to the original reason that child was known to Family and Community Services [FACS]. The Hon. PENNY SHARPE: If you want to argue that it was just because of the risk of harm issue then I think we are going to have a problem. Minister, four of those children had been reported 25 times. What was happening with the four children who had been reported 25 times? PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE NO. 5 - LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRECTED Friday, 26 February 2021 Legislative Council Page 3 Mr GARETH WARD: I will ask the secretary to answer that. Mr COUTTS-TROTTER: I would have to take that on notice. But, again, I say that if you express this as a rate among every 100,000 children, and I wish the rate was zero—but the rate of children who die by suicide or in suspicious circumstances who are known to our department is fewer than one in every 100,000 children. The Hon. PENNY SHARPE: So are you just saying that it is only the suspicious circumstances that we should be concerned about even though these children have previously been in contact with the department? Mr COUTTS-TROTTER: No. The Hon. PENNY SHARPE: Well, that is what it sounds like. Mr COUTTS-TROTTER: But the report makes clear that the cause of death for most children is complex medical issues. Certainly, within the detail of a child's life who has experienced neglect and abuse, there could be cases where the child's medical needs were not met by their carers—which is why we got involved—but the cause of death is not abuse, the cause of death is a medical condition that the child experiences. The Hon. PENNY SHARPE: But they are dying—I am not going to argue with you about this, Mr Coutts-Trotter. My issue is that we know that of the 97 children who died, 63 of them had been reported three years earlier to the department and another 53 have been reported in the past 12 months. Are you able to provide the Committee information around what the active involvement of the department was in relation to these children? Mr COUTTS-TROTTER: We would, but we would need to take that on notice. The Hon. PENNY SHARPE: I am happy for you to do so. Minister, are you concerned that 27 of the children had not been reported but their siblings had been? Mr GARETH WARD: That is one of the reasons why they are included in the report. That is part of the reason why they are reported. We have done so since 2014 for transparency. The Hon. PENNY SHARPE: I am very happy you report that, but now I am asking the questions and trying to dig into the reasons why. I am very pleased, and it is a very good thing, that the department reports this. All of us welcome that. The accountability and the understanding of what has happened to the deaths of children is extremely important. Mr GARETH WARD: Absolutely. The Hon. PENNY SHARPE: But I am just not going to accept from you, Minister, that "we report it so therefore that is enough". Mr GARETH WARD: No, no. The Hon. PENNY SHARPE: I want more information about that.