Vol. 187 Thursday, No. 5 4 October 2007

DI´OSPO´ IREACHTAI´ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

SEANAD E´ IREANN

TUAIRISC OIFIGIU´ IL—Neamhcheartaithe (OFFICIAL REPORT—Unrevised)

Thursday, 4 October 2007.

Business of Seanad ………………………………273 Order of Business …………………………………274 Coroners Bill 2007: Order for Second Stage ……………………………293 Second Stage …………………………………293 Adjournment Matters Cancer Screening Programme …………………………323 Parking Regulations ………………………………325 Rail Network …………………………………327 273 274

SEANAD E´ IREANN may give notice on another day of the matter she wishes to raise. ———— Order of Business. De´ardaoin, 4 Deireadh Fo´mhair 2007. Senator : The Order of Business Thursday, 4 October 2007. is No. 1, the Coroners Bill 2007 — Order for ———— Second Stage and Second Stage. A Seanad party spokesperson may speak for 15 minutes while Chuaigh an i gceannas ar other Senators may speak for eight minutes. 10.30 a.m. Members may share time by agreement.

———— Senator Frances Fitzgerald: We discussed in the House last week the need for an all-party Paidir. motion on Burma. I would like to hear what pro- Prayer. gress the Leader has made. All of us will have seen the television images of the death of the ———— Japanese photographer and the ongoing struggle of the Burmese people. An all-party motion from Business of Seanad. this House would be important. An Cathaoirleach: I have received notice from Does the Leader agree with comments made Senator Frances Fitzgerald that on the motion for by the former Leader of this House, Senator the Adjournment of the House today, she pro- Cassidy’s constituency colleague, Deputy poses to raise the following matter: O’Rourke, when she said yesterday that she was quite astonished and astounded at the removal of the need for the Minister for Health and the Minister and the Department of Health and Children to outline the action she is taking to Children from the day-to-day running of the restore confidence to the system producing cer- health services, and that it was quite a morass? vical smear tests following the revelation that a This comment echoes what was said on this side number of such tests which were sent to the US of the House yesterday about political account- for analysis had to be further reviewed when ability with regard to the health cutbacks. Yester- discrepancies and errors in the results came to light; and the action she intends to take to day I spoke about our public services and the ensure that patients can have absolute confi- need to manage them efficiently. dence in the tests and their results. Today I want to talk about education. Many of my colleagues asked that the Minister for Edu- I also received notice from Senator Dominic cation and Science attend the House and discuss Hannigan on the following matter: a variety of issues. In particular I want to focus the need for the Minister for Transport and on the provision of schools at local level, partic- the Marine to instigate procedures whereby ularly in the fast and growing communities train station car parks are included within the around the country. The focus has been on Minister’s regulatory powers. primary schools but I see an ongoing problem in the provision of secondary schools, where there I also received notice from Senator Paschal are bulges in primary school populations and the Donohoe on the following matter: secondary schools are not in place. This issue the need for the Minister for Transport and needs attention. What initiative does the Minister the Marine, in relation to the Metro North, plan to bring together the Department of Edu- which is the largest infrastructure project in the cation and Science, the local authorities, the history of the State to confirm the proposed Office of Public Works, and the providers, partic- cost and to make public the cost benefit analy- ularly in light of the bishops’ comments about sis of this project. their future role to the effect that they intend to I also received notice from Senator Cecilia play a lesser role? I would like the Minister to Keaveney of the following matter: attend the House and outline the action she is taking to put that sort of planning in place. At a the need for the Minister for Finance to give public meeting the other day, a woman asked me an update in relation to the site acquired in a if there was any point in carrying out a census, location (details supplied) and the current and being aware of the figures, if no action is status of each of its three constituent parts. taken on planning. Many of the Members on this I regard the matters raised as suitable for dis- side of the House would welcome an opportunity cussion on the Adjournment and I have selected to debate the issues with the Minister for Edu- the matters raised by Senators Fitzgerald, cation and Science. I ask the Leader to invite her Hannigan and Donohoe. They will be taken at to the House to discuss this and the many issues the conclusion of business. Senator Keaveney my colleagues raised in recent days. 275 Order of 4 October 2007. Business 276

Senator Joe O’Toole: I re-echo the point made of the west will be lost when constituency reviews by Senator Fitzgerald. I confirm that the Leader’s take TDs from the west and move them to the office is co-operating with the various groups to east, chasing the population. Logically, that is agree a motion. I hope the Leader will confirm what will happen. that a motion acceptable to all is close to being The only way to deal with this is to look at it agreed. from a different point of view. I will be shot on Du´ irt an Seanado´ ir Fitzgerald gur co´ ir don sight by the media for saying this but even if it Aire Oideachais agus Eolaı´ochta theacht isteach means increasing the number of TDs, we must chugainn le ple´ gne´ithe a´irithe oideachais. Ta´ rud ensure the voice of the regions of the west is fully amha´in eile gur co´ ir di a phle´ linn chomh maith, articulated and heard. I wish to have a debate on an t-achrann ata´ ar siu´ l faoi la´thair idir Ghaelsco- this issue in the House, without any vested ileanna agus an Aire fe´in maidir le mu´ ineadh na interests. This process is happening already. Gaeilge sna scoileanna sin. An modh ata´ in u´ sa´id There was a time when there were six TDs in faoi la´thair na´ tum-oideachas, an immersion Cavan-Monaghan. There are six in Kerry at the method of teaching. Is modh mu´ inte e´ ata´ in u´ sa´id moment, but it will be reduced to five. This is ar fud an domhain — there is nothing different happening all along the west coast. From a disin- about it. Even groups like Linguaphone for terested point of view — it makes no difference example, uses this method to put forward its to me personally or to anyone in this House from point of view. It is a perfectlly sustainable and any party — I think this is wrong and we need to correct method. Ar an dtaobh eile den sce´al, ta´ consider and focus on this issue. an tAire a ra´ gur co´ ir go mbeadh Be´arla ar am- chla´r na scoileanna chomh maith. Her worry is Senator : Yesterday we agreed to that if it is just complete immersion in Gaelinn the Order of Business as set out by the Leader without any formal teaching of english, that does who agreed to a further debate on the issue of not reflect the timetable. Ta´ mise ar thaobh na health. I do not know whether he said this nGaelscoileanna san argo´ int seo, ce´ go dtuigim directly to the House but it was stated that a go bhfuil argo´ int la´idir ag an Aire. Ba bhrea´ liom debate would take place on Shannon before long. go bple´ifidh sı´ e´ anseo linn. It should not be Members will be grateful for this. However, there something on which we take sides. I would like is a serious question mark over the coherence and to hear the views offered from both sides. The credibility of the Government on a range of Minister is in a perfectly understandable position. issues, including these two. I do not fully agree with her on it, but I accept As the Leader prefers the Order of Business to the strength of her arguments. We could have a be conducted on the basis of questions to him, I situation where a child might be immersed in will repeat the question asked by Senator Frances Gaelinn for two or three years and the idea in the Fitzgerald in case the Leader lets it go. Does he Gaelscoil method is that they would then pick up agree with the position articulated by the person on the english from there on in. That is very who sat in his chair last year who said she was understandable, but you could have a situation astounded at the remove of the Minister for where a child could have left before being Health and Children from the everyday situation exposed to the teaching of english. I see that from in the health services, which we all know so well? the point of view of the Department and the Does he agree with her view that it is all a bit Minister. of a morass? Those are the words of the former Ba cho´ ir go mbeidh dı´ospo´ ireacht againn ar an Leader. Does the Leader agree that the presen- a´bhar seo agus tuiscint againn ar cad ta´ ar siu´ l. Nı´ tation of the Government on these issues is all he´ go bhfuil aon duine mı´cheart ach caithfimid a morass? Deputy Mary O’Rourke made those teacht ar an seift is fearr do dhaltaı´ na scoile- comments. The Minister for Community, Rural anna sin. and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy E´ amon O´ Cuı´v, There is one other issue I wish to consider. who is a member of the Government and subject The Cathaoirleach knows that I have raised to collective Cabinet responsibility, said that he this time and again. It is something that always cannot make head nor tail of the Health Service bothers me and it started again yesterday. My two Executive and finds it impossible to deal with. colleagues from Donegal raised Donegal issues. However, the problem is that we need to discuss Senator : Hear, hear. the entire west of Ireland, from Malin to Schull. What always happens here is that people are Senator Alex White: What is actually hap- focused on their own constituencies, and we lose pening in the Government? Where has democ- the big picture. It is hard to believe but for years racy in this State got to when Government Mini- it was difficult to get co-ordinated support for the sters can face in two, three or four different western rail corridor. People conveniently forget directions at the same time? How are we, as this but it is the truth. People did not see the Senators, to take seriously any Minister or value of the rail corridor because they were not member of the Government who comes to this looking at the whole issue. As an Independent House to articulate the position of the Govern- who will never stand for the Da´il, with no vested ment on such an important issue when they spend interests, I have a serious concern that the voice their time disagreeing with each other publicly 277 Order of 4 October 2007. Business 278 and undermining the position of people such as a large number of Senators wish to speak. We Professor Drumm who, for all the faults of the have a time limit, and when we reach the end, HSE, is clearly doing his best? How is he sup- people who have a valuable question to put to posed to feel when a member of the Government, the Leader will not be able to. Therefore, I ask subject to collective Cabinet responsibility, says people to put questions. There are other forums that he cannot make head nor tail of the organis- for speeches. ation and that he finds it impossible to deal with? Credibility and coherence are demanded by the Senator : The Leader will respond people, and by those in any democracy, of their to the questions that have been raised by the Government. In this country, the day seems to be leaders of the other groups. I wish to raise an long gone when people resigned over issues they issue that follows on from yesterday’s Order of supposedly felt strongly about. Business. A number of Members asked that the On the issue of Shannon, we now have the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment extraordinary situation that the Minister for come to the house to speak about employment in Defence, Deputy Willie O’Dea, has been Donegal. In light of the indefinite postponement reported to be guilty of abusing individual citi- of the opening of the Amgen facility in zens of this country who have the temerity to Carrigwtwohill, County Cork, we should take the raise with him—— opportunity to discuss the wider issue for a number of reasons. First, this announcement is Senator : The Senator should obviously disappointing and the Minister will know better with his background. That is an have an opportunity to talk about the confidence allegation. of IDA Ireland that a replacement industry can be found. Senator Alex White: ——the question of his If the Minister does come to the House, I wish position. These people have just given a clear to ask him about the manner in which job account of what happened. The behaviour of the announcements are given. Historically, all Minister — again, a Minister subject to collective Governments have made announcements regard- Cabinet responsibility — is nothing short of a dis- ing the creation of jobs three or four years into grace and he should make a public apology. the future once a company is up and running. This originated at a time of high unemployment Senator Geraldine Feeney: The only thing to create expectations and hope. This is no longer wrong with the Senator’s party is that they do not necessary and it is unfair on local communities. have any Ministers. Job announcements should be limited to jobs that are already in place and are paid from day one. Senator Alex White: If he really felt so strongly Everyone in the political process should examine about the Shannon issue, and all of the dancing ways in which these announcements can be better that he engaged in with his colleagues in made in the future. August—— Senator David Norris: I do not wish to inter- Senators: Hear, hear. rupt the Order of Business by moving a vote of condolence, but it would be appropriate for us to Senator Alex White: It was a performance wor- recognise the death of Tony Ryan. thy of the Rose of Tralee, rather than what we would expect of a Government Minister. After all Senators: Hear, hear. that posturing, what happened at the end of the day? Absolutely nothing. Senator David Norris: I say this as somebody Senator Geraldine Feeney: This is a speech. who does not particularly admire Ryanair, but Mr. Ryan was a very remarkable businessman. In Senator Camillus Glynn: Where is the addition, he rescued one of the most magnificent question? 18th century houses in this country and did it with attention to detail, loving care, and professional- Senator Alex White: We cannot take them ism. He started on the road as an entrepreneur in seriously. very difficult times — in the 1970s — and built up an international business, and then ploughed Senator Geraldine Feeney: Is he calling for a money back into the cultural life of this country. debate? Where is the question? This is a speech. I was a guest in his home a number of times. I certainly mourn his passing and I am sure other Senator Alex White: We cannot take any people do too. Government seriously if its members cannot It is my intention to be as helpful as possible maintain a coherent position on fundamental to you, a Chathaoirligh, and to the Government. issues as articulated by them. Senator John Hanafin yesterday raised the ques- tion of reform of the Seanad and the university An Cathaoirleach: I would appreciate it if seats, and the distinguished Leader also referred people would ask questions. The problem is that to the university Senators. In addition, on the first 279 Order of 4 October 2007. Business 280

[Senator David Norris.] member states. It would have caused problems in day of the newly convened Seanad, there was a this country because we have a constitution and bit of a spat and it was once more suggested that the name “reform treaty” is appropriate. the university Senators were dragging their heels The Minister of State with responsibility for and obstructing reform in this area. For that this matter has tremendous involvement in reason, and in the most positive and constructive Europe and his involvement in the Nice treaty way possible, I move an amendment to the Order was successful. Deputy Dick Roche will be wel- of Business. I propose that we take No. 7, motion come to the House and I ask the Leader for the 15 in the name of most of the university Senators: opportunity to discuss this issue. Perhaps the “That Seanad E´ ireann urges the Government to Seanad can take a lead role in pushing through implement the recommendations of the 2004 the referendum in 2008. ‘Report on Seanad Reform’ by the Seanad Com- mittee on Procedure and Privileges Sub-Commit- Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: Along with tee on Seanad Reform”, immediately after the other colleagues, I ask the Leader to invite the Order of Business as the first item, that we pass Minister for Education and Science to the House it, and that we immediately start to implement to discuss an announcement she made in August. the very clear proposals, which were endorsed by Many Senators know she plans that parents will the Government and which include radical receive reports on their children’s progress in changes in the university system. school at the ages of seven and 11. As the new spokesperson for education and science, I wel- Senator : I second that. come this move. However, I would like her to tease it out. Has she fully considered the impli- An Cathaoirleach: We will take it later. cations in terms of resources? I fear it will open a can of worms. It is a can of worms which needs Senator : With regard to what to be opened but I am not happy with the amount Senator Alex White stated, issues will be debated. of resources in place, especially with regard to The Fianna Fa´il Party will always debate issues children with learning difficulties. I have first- freely and openly and will not be suppressed by hand experience in this area. At this time of former members of The Workers Party, Sinn major prosperity, a pupil in a primary school of Fe´in, Labour, Democratic Left or anybody else. 200 children who requires psychological assess- The is still smarting from the ment qualifies for one to two assessments. This Mullingar accord or disaccord. means a parent must spend \400 to have the child privately assessed. Many colleagues and friends An Cathaoirleach: Does Senator Leyden have who are parents have experienced this. Providing a question for the Leader? parents with reports on their children will further exacerbate this need. Senator Terry Leyden: The Cathaoirleach must accept it is difficult over here. I join my colleague, Senator Frances Fitzgerald, in asking that the Minister come to the An Cathaoirleach: We are on the Order of House to address the matter of school provision Business. and forward planning at primary and second level and advance the Adamstown model. Senator : No bad language. Ba mhaith liom dı´ospo´ ireacht faoi mu´ ineadh na Gaeilge mar a du´ irt an tSeanado´ ir O’Toole. Senator Terry Leyden: I appreciate that but it Ta´ fadhbanna againn le mu´ ineadh na Gaeilge and is difficult for a united and cohesive party to it is time that we addressed the teaching of the listen to this. language. Will the Leader invite to the House the Mini- Will the Leader invite the Minister for the ster of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs Environment, Heritage and Local Government to with responsibility for European Affairs, Deputy discuss the census of 2006? Will the Minister con- Dick Roche, to discuss the new European reform duct an early review of the electoral area bound- treaty? As the Government spokesperson in the aries? The last review was ten years ago. I would Seanad on European affairs and integration like the results of such a review to be in place in policy, I wish to see the Seanad more involved in time for the local elections of 2009. We experi- discussing the important issue of Ireland’s future enced major demographic shifts since the last in Europe. review. This should be up to date to address the The European Council meeting of 21 and 22 population needs as they exist at present. June decided to convene an intergovernmental conference to finalise the details of the reform Senator Lisa McDonald: I call for a debate on treaty. It is important that the Seanad plays a role the important issue of a university for the south- in this. This Seanad is made up of enlightened east region. Waterford Institute of Technology is people with broad views. This issue will face the ready to become a university. Will the Leader Irish people as a referendum is likely to take invite the Minister for Education and Science to place in 2008. The concept of a constitution was the Seanad to debate this matter? Approximately dropped because it was not acceptable to most 40% of the workforce of my home county of 281 Order of 4 October 2007. Business 282

Wexford is dependent on the construction indus- This morning we held an all-party meeting with try. It is unhealthy for any area to be overly Mr. Leonard Orban, the European Commissioner dependent on one industry. A university in the for multilingualism. I found it an exceptionally south-east would help attract new and diverse good meeting. He gave us an undertaking that he employment and would also act as a spur and a would ensure the equality of the Irish language motor to raise all boats. as a working language in Europe would be enter- Yesterday, I was appointed spokesperson for tained. We had the opportunity to point out to justice, equality and law reform with particular him some positive promotion of Irish, including emphasis on and primary responsibility for the new legislation on Irish, the official working equality and law reform. In this regard, I join calls status of Irish in Europe, Raidio´ na Gaeltachta made over the past two weeks by Senators and TG4. One of the main items we were able to Fitzgerald and Bacik for a debate on equality to bring to his notice was that of the gaelscoileanna. discuss issues such as the participation of women There is no doubt that development which has in the workforce at boardroom level and in poli- come without any great official prompting was tics. As politicians, we must take the lead in this one of the reasons we all had new confidence in matter. The last time I checked, we were ranked this regard. 78th in the world behind countries such as Sudan I find the present debate a little disturbing and Israel. Collectively, we should be ashamed because the people who headed up the gaelscoile- and should address this issue. The Seanad is a anna were the pioneers at the time. It would be perfect forum for this debate. much better if the debate and the consultation I congratulate the Cathaoirleach on his elev- took place in a more private setting rather than ation to the role and I look forward to working in public. We owe that to the gaelscoileanna. I with him. I am delighted to be here. listened to one of their spokespersons who made the point that as far as she knew, there was no Senator : I am glad to see professional or basic research done on the issue the Minister for Communications, Energy and of an immersion system for Irish and bringing Natural Resources will undertake a review of English into that situation. It would be most help- investment in broadband. As spokesperson on ful if the Minister for Education and Science community and rural affairs, I am pleased to see could come to the House and discuss that issue any measure to improve life for rural dwellers. with Members because she is one of the great Despite promises to the contrary, as a country we pioneers of the promotion of Irish. We all know still lag behind when it comes to broadband of her great love for Irish and how supportive she access in rural areas. Broadband has long ceased is. I would prefer if the debate were taken from to be a luxury item. It is now an essential part of the airwaves and into this House where we would daily life. Will the Leader request the Minister have the opportunity to discuss it. to come to the Seanad to outline his policy for improving broadband access in rural areas? A related issue was raised by Senator David Senator : I wish to raise the issue Norris who called for a debate on Seanad reform. of Amgen and join Senator Boyle in asking that My party supports this and would welcome such the Minister come to the House to discuss the a debate. We disagree with certain issue of job creation. It is especially disappointing 11 o’clock aspects of his proposal but we would in the Cork region to hear of the loss of the pro- welcome the chance to debate it. I posed jobs in Amgen. In particular, the Minister would like to see noise limitations introduced. It should explain how much the Government, his gets loud when sitting between Senators Alex officials and IDA Ireland knew prior to the White and David Norris and I would not mind if general election about the decision of Amgen to we introduced legislation to limit it. postpone indefinitely locating its jobs in Cork. The project had been announced with much Senator Donie Cassidy: Does Senator fanfare. Hannigan want to come over to this side of the Will the Leader invite the Minister for Edu- House? cation and Science to come to the House to dis- cuss her proposals for teachers in difficulty? It is Senator Labhra´sO´ Murchu´ : Bhı´ suim agam sa disingenuous that we are drip fed the Minister’s mhe´id a bhı´ le ra´ ag an tSeanado´ ir O’Toole faoi new proposal by the Government. It behoves us dı´ospo´ ireacht i dtaobh na ngaelscoileanna, go all to enhance and support teachers who face mo´ rmho´ r sta´das an Bhe´arla iontu. Bhı´ me´ ag e´is- difficulties in classrooms and education. It is teacht le hurlabhraı´ o´ na gaelscoileanna ar an rai- wrong to label them as problem teachers. We dio´ agus chuaigh sı´ i bhfeidhm go mo´ r orm. Thug must support and nurture our teachers who are sı´ le tuiscint nach raibh taighde ar bith de´anta go one of the primary movers in educating our proifisiu´ nta ar an gceist seo maidir le Be´arla sna young people. If they are having difficulties, an gaelscoileanna. Bheadh se´ cabhrach da´ mbeadh enhanced support structure for them should be in an tAire in ann teacht isteach leis an gceist seo place and not the school principal wielding the a phle´. axe and being the judge and jury. 283 Order of 4 October 2007. Business 284

Senator : On a point of clari- Government has ownership of some formula fication, a call was made yesterday for the Mini- which will keep Ireland growing at 5%, 6% and ster for Enterprise, Trade and Employment to 7% per year. The country faces major economic come to the House to discuss the job situation in challenges and cutbacks in Departments are the north west, which seemed to broaden out to threatened. That is the new economic situation asking the Minister to discuss IDA Ireland. I had facing the Government and it needs further made a separate call that we examine the north- debate. western Border region, the new dispensation that From the point of view of job creation in east exists and the opportunity to develop regional Cork, the promised 1,000 jobs would have trans- balance. I do not know which Minister is appro- formed east Cork and there would have been priate for that debate but there is a need to thousands of spin-off jobs. It is a huge blow to broaden it out. the region. We need to hear from the Minister I was interested to hear Senator O’Toole speak what he knew in recent months and, more about the western rail corridor. I am not sure if importantly, what he proposes to do to respond it ever got as far as Donegal. to this disappointing news.

Senator Joe O’Toole: There was a railway Senator John Hanafin: Again I ask the Leader there at one time and it was let go. for a debate on reform of the Seanad. The reason for asking for the debate is the inadequate Senator Cecilia Keaveney: Every time I saw the suggestions made prior to this. It is for this advertisement, I never saw reference to Donegal Seanad to come forward with suggestions and in it. I believe there is a new dispensation in the that is why I have asked for a debate. It is no north-west Border counties that needs to be harm to remind ourselves because it was sug- maximised. It has new potential and it involves gested in certain parts that it was a less than the jurisdiction in the Six Counties. Therefore, we democratic method of election. Some people must find some mechanism to develop discussion, carried their election very heavily on their shoul- debate and interaction to maximise that potential. ders. Let us not forget that some 1.2 million Far be it from me, coming from the other people voted for us to be here in this manner. House, to make a suggestion. In the Da´il, Mini- The system has worked exceptionally well. sters take questions on a rota basis and one knows when they will take questions again. Is Senator David Norris: They did not. They do there any mechanism in this House whereby not know what a vote is. Ministers would come to it regularly for a part- icular period? If there were, we would know Senator John Hanafin: The 1938 Constitution when to debate the issue of underperforming was voted on by 1.2 million people, almost teachers, gaelscoileanna and so on and we could 700,000 of whom voted for the Seanad in its cur- gear our discussion towards the relevant Minister. rent form. At present, everybody is asking that every Mini- Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: Was that in ster come to the House. Unless there is a certain 1937? framework, it will be difficult for everybody to deal with issues. It will be difficult also for any An Cathaoirleach: Without interruption. Minister to deal with every issue on a specific day. Senator John Hanafin: The reality is that the Senator : I support the call from Seanad has worked exceptionally well. We have Senators Boyle and Buttimer that the Minister asked for a moderate proposal, an increase of ten for Enterprise, Trade and Employment come to Senators, when the Da´il has gone from 120 to 166 the House at the earliest possible time to debate Members, which is a 33% increase. We have the Amgen company’s decision not to locate in asked for only ten extra Senators in a system that east Cork. The Leader will be aware that one of has served the country well. his party colleagues, a Government backbencher, has already stated that his own Government mis- Senators: Hear, hear. led the people of east Cork over the past two years and that Amgen had no intention of locat- Senator John Hanafin: That is our mandate. ing there. I cannot comment on whether that is correct but it is important to discuss job creation Senator : A European Council in east Cork. meeting on 18 and 19 October will finally adopt The context of discussing job creation and job the reform treaty which will be put to a refer- losses is different from that which pertained some endum in this country. At the previous European months ago. In the run-up to the general election, summit which dealt with this, an issue arose in a myth was created that the outgoing Govern- regard to the Charter of Fundamental Rights in ment had sole ownership of some magic formula which the Taoiseach indicated that Ireland might that would keep the economy growing strongly. exercise some opt out from that charter. That was The winds of economic change we have witnessed subsequently clarified when there was a certain in recent months give lie to the view that the reaction. 285 Order of 4 October 2007. Business 286

One other issue concerning that discussion the importance of broadband and the concern of which will be finalised in a matter of weeks is the Senators Buttimer and Bradford about the post- exercise of an opt out in the area of policing and ponement of the development of the Amgen judicial co-operation in criminal law matters, and plant in Carrigtwohill. However, other issues are the work of the European institutions and the coming down the stream such as the planned EU European Union in that area. It is evident there single corporate tax rate and the implications it is a split in Cabinet on this issue because the may have for Ireland. Some interesting comments Minister of State, Deputy Roche, has stated pub- have been made such as those by the chairman of licly he is against the exercise of this opt out. the Ulster Bank on merging the authorities on It appears this matter has not been discussed in the island with responsibility for the development the Da´il or in this House and has not been the of industry and our economy. What options are subject of any discussion by the Joint Committee available to us to invite people who have made on European Affairs. I ask for a debate on this comments, like Dr. Gillespie and others, along matter before a decision is taken. It falls to the with the policy makers and the political leader- Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, ship, to have an all-island debate on the future of Deputy Brian Lenihan, to clarify the position the economy? now. I hope he will be in the House later this morning. It is appropriate to invite him to clarify An Cathaoirleach: It is not possible to invite the issue. We will all play a part in the reform such people into the Seanad. However, that treaty referendum campaign and we should know matter could be taken up through the Houses’ the basis on which these decisions are being committee system. made. The decision will be made on 18 and 19 October. The lower House had a debate on Senator David Norris: Reform. policing and judicial co-operation yesterday. We are well aware of the transnational character of Senator Ivana Bacik: I apologise for speaking crime and criminal organisations. The Govern- out of turn earlier. I second the motion proposed ment needs all the help it can get from Europe by Senator Norris to have a debate on Seanad and we should play our full part in the efforts of reform. I thought Senator Hanafin might have got Europe in this area. there before me when he spoke in favour of a debate on Seanad reform, but he seemed to Senator : I am in solidarity with refuse at the last hurdle and not second Senator Senator Norris on his expression of sympathy on Norris’s motion. We had much discussion on the the death of Tony Ryan. matter on the first sitting day of this Seanad. The Leader among others was very vocal on the need An Cathaoirleach: I ask Senators to consider for Seanad reform and it is important that we give Standing Order 108, which clearly spells out those it more than token attention and have a debate. to whom we may pay tribute and give expressions I also thank Senator McDonald for again call- of sympathy. If a motion of sympathy is to be ing for a debate on gender equality, an issue to taken it should be moved by the Leader following which I intend to return. From looking around which others could join in. I do not want to have this House and the other House it is clear that to do this and I have no disrespect for any women’s representation in Ireland is very poor. deceased person. However, there are rules and It is an important matter for a further debate. regulations with which I and all Members must Senator Mary M. White: Hear, hear. comply. We will take on board what the Senator has said. An Cathaoirleach: Only one minute remains and four Senators are offering to speak. Senators Senator Ivor Callely: I was prompted by will appreciate that people who have overrun Senator Norris’s expression of sympathy. I would their time have been unfair to others who want like to be associated with what has been said and to make a valuable contribution is now on the record. Tony Ryan was an entrepr- eneur of great vision who had a very beneficial Senators: Hear, hear. impact on the economy in the past 25 years or so. He brought new frontiers to the aviation industry Senator Michael McCarthy: I also wish to raise in Ireland. May he rest in peace. the issue of the jobs at Amgen. It is no great sur- I seek your guidance, a Cathaoirleach, as to prise to people in the Cork region that Amgen what options are available to Members of this has finally announced that the planned develop- House to initiate and lead an all-Ireland debate ment of the Carrigtwohill plant will now not pro- on the economy. We are all aware of the current ceed. Several questions need to be asked on this economic climate and the global situation. I list- announcement. Who knew what? When did they ened with interest to some of the contributors on know it? What exactly did they know? Prior to the opposite side of the House who made com- the general election it was common knowledge in ments, worthy as they are, about issues needing Cork that Amgen would pull the plug and that attention such as Senator Hannigan’s mention of the announcement would be delayed until after 287 Order of 4 October 2007. Business 288

[Senator Michael McCarthy.] the floor to dictate to me what time I have gone the general election for very obvious reasons. The over. Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Martin, said at the time that “any Senator David Norris: Well said, a rumours were outrageous”. They are not so out- Chathaoirligh. rageous now and Cork East is without a 1,100- job facility despite the fanfare and aplomb that Senator : Reach Out: heralded its announcement several years ago. I National Strategy for Action on Suicide Preven- would like the Leader to arrange to bring a Mini- tion was published in 2005 and its recom- ster to the House to account for this announce- mendations were endorsed by the Government. ment and to investigate the roles of the employ- In the meantime the investment in suicide ment agencies of the State. What role does IDA research and prevention has been an absolute dis- Ireland play in Cork? As far as I am concerned it grace. ASIST, which stands for applied suicide does not exist in west Cork and it is clearly not intervention skills training, is a two-day course to working in east Cork. prepare individuals to provide emergency inter- ventions to help people at risk of suicide. More Senator Ro´ na´n Mullen: The calls from the than 40 of these programmes have been can- Independent benches and Senator Hanafin for celled. While we have cutbacks in health, these Seanad reform and the call from my fellow east types of cutbacks are totally unacceptable. I again Galwegian Senator Healy Eames on electoral call for a debate on suicide and the recom- reform relate to the engagement of the public mendations of Reach Out, which have not been with the political process. While I know the implemented to date. House has debated electronic voting in the recent past, it would be timely for the Leader to arrange Senator : Senator O’Toole has for the Minister for the Environment, Heritage struck a very important chord. There are myriad and Local Government to engage in debate with problems from Malin Head to Mizen Head. We us in the House once more on the issue, partic- need to focus on the bigger picture and engage ularly in the light of the latest developments in in a wider debate, to which many Members have The Netherlands. In the past month an official subscribed. Given the job losses, the lack of a rail report has criticised the transparency of elec- corridor, the non-functioning of the HSE and tronic voting there and a Dutch judge has found without going into any of our pet problems in our that the use of electronic machines in the recent local areas and counties, there are problems from election in The Netherlands was unauthorised. Donegal to Kerry and inland as well. Ireland’s regional policy is a total scata bulla´n. I support An Cathaoirleach: The Senator can discuss that the call for a wider debate encompassing in the debate if the Leader agrees to it. everything.

Senator Ro´ na´n Mullen: I was sickened to hear An Cathaoirleach: I have exceeded the time time and again from members of the Government limit but this is the first day it has been in use. I in recent years that Ireland would be the laughing guarantee Members will lose out in future stock of Europe if we did not introduce electronic because I will call the Leader to reply within the voting. Never was there a more pathetic excuse time allocated. of an argument for introducing electronic voting. While it might not be the most popular thing to Senator Donie Cassidy: It is proposed to take say in this House given that we have all been statements on Shannon Airport next Wednesday through the difficulty of long election counts, our following the Order of Business. system of electing people has a great benefit in I wish to be associated with the expressions of helping people engage with the political process. sympathy to the family of Tony Ryan and I pass Any debate in this House should focus more on our condolences. He was one of Ireland’s widely on the importance of improving the image greatest men of all time. He transformed Ireland of politics in the eyes of the public. Our voting and gave us the opportunity to create the Celtic system is a help and not a hindrance. tiger. He achieved much in his lifetime and he has given generations an opportunity. He was an An Cathaoirleach: The Senator can debate the innovative person. Everybody who worked with matter at length if the Leader agrees to such a Tony Ryan was motivated and uplifted and he debate. I call Senator Cummins. was an inspiration to a country that experienced Third World conditions when he started out in Senator Donie Cassidy: You have gone over 1975. time, a Chathaoirligh. Senators Fitzgerald, O’Toole, White, Healy Eames, O´ Murchu´ and Buttimer called for a An Cathaoirleach: I will decide on the time. I debate on education and I will allocate time for gave some latitude. I do not want anyone from this. 289 Order of 4 October 2007. Business 290

With regard to the comments by Members on Senators: Hear, hear. the HSE, I will have to allocate further time to debate health issues. The Minister for Health and Senator : This is the Leader’s Children was in the House two days last week to natural home. bring us up to date on the situation at the time. The challenge she faces is formidable and she Senator Donie Cassidy: I have no difficulty needs the backing and support of all colleagues. allocating time for this urgent topic. Up to \15 billion is allocated for health services The three Donegal Senators called for an annually and the way it is being spent is a serious urgent debate on the employment challenges fac- concern to Members, some of whom have vast ing the county yesterday in the House to which I experience in the health services. Their views responded, although I understand that is not what must be taken into account because they know is being reported on the airwaves. When I replied, what they are talking about. The issue is whether I included the request for a debate on the BMW the State is getting value for money for its mass- region by Deputy Healy Eames and the chal- ive allocation to the HSE, whose running costs lenges and workings of the IDA. Many Senators increased by 17% in the first eight months of the have expressed serious concerns about the chal- year. Mullingar Hospital is ranked No. 1 in the lenges ahead. If we are all honest about it, the State for hygiene standards and No. 2 for value greatest challenge facing the Government and for money. Other hospitals that face difficulties ourselves, as parliamentarians, is competitiveness. should take a lead from the administrator and As a former chairman of the Joint Committee on staff in Mullingar Hospital, where good people Enterprise and Small Business, I visited many are doing a good job. I have no difficulty allocat- countries that had advantage on Ireland, but we ing time for a further debate on the HSE. have been the world leaders in turning around an An all-party motion on Burma will be put on economy. All political parties played their part the Order Paper and I thank the leaders of the and all of us can taken kudos from that but now various groups for their co-operation and under- we must ascertain where we will go for the next standing. I congratulate the Minister for Foreign ten or 15 years. I intend to bring the Minister for Affairs on his outstanding contribution at the Enterprise, Trade and Employment to the House United Nations last Tuesday in the name of the for a half day debate so that he can listen to the people of Ireland, of which I was proud. Many views of Members who may be able to assist in Senators will be proud of him because he did not framing policy for the next ten years. put a tooth in his statement expressing the views Senator McDonald called for a debate on and feelings of the people and Members of both investment in the south-east. This would be a Houses. worthy debate and it could be taken when the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment Senator David Norris: Hear, hear. comes to the House. I congratulate the Senator on her appointment by the Taoiseach as spokes- Senator Donie Cassidy: Senator O’Toole called person on equality and law reform. Both she and for a debate on the constituencies review. This Senator Bacik called for a debate on equality and presents a serious challenge to us, as parliamen- gender balance and I will allocate time for that. tarians, in regards to where we are going. Practi- Senator Hannigan called on the Minister for cally half of our Da´il constituencies will lose one Communications, Energy and Natural Resources or two seats in every constituency review. I have to update the House on broadband provision. As discussed this with three experienced Members in he stated, it is a necessary tool of work for every- both Houses and serious decisions must be made one in Ireland plc. I have no difficulty allocating regarding what will happen along the western time for this but, perhaps, the Labour Party could seaboard between Kerry and Donegal. I could use its private Members time next week to bring not agree more with the sentiments of Senator the debate forward. Senator White could discuss O’Toole in this regard and a debate will be held this with his party Whip and a two-hour debate on this issue in the next three to four weeks. The could be held next week, which would be helpful Boundary Commission is an independent body to all Members. and it is currently sitting. However, no one knows better than I what can happen, as I lost half my Senator Alex White: We will invite the Leader county to another constituency, similar to what to our meeting later on. happened in Leitrim. Following past constituency reviews, at least one seat has been lost along the Senator Dominic Hannigan: The Leader’s western corridor every time. This is leading to a guidance would be most helpful. shift of power with two thirds of the electorate residing on the eastern seaboard. The western Senator Donie Cassidy: Senator Keaveney seaboard will be denuded of its democratic right called for Ministers to be on a rota. Perhaps all to have representatives in both Houses. Thank- good ideas such as this could be put to the Com- fully the Seanad is a more democratic House in mittee on Procedure and Privileges under the that regard. chairmanship of the Cathaoirleach. That commit- 291 Order of 4 October 2007. Business 292

[Senator Donie Cassidy.] Senator Donie Cassidy: Who will contribute at tee considers deviation from Standing Orders and that time? creating new opportunities, views and ideas. This idea is worthy of such consideration. We could Senator Mary M. White: Exactly. take the proposal to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and see how it could be teased out Senator Donie Cassidy: Senator Cummins by its members. called for a debate on suicide and Reach Out. I Senators Hanafin, Norris and Bacik have pro- have no difficulty in allocating time for this. posed an amendment on Seanad reform to the Senator Callely called for a debate on the econ- Order of Business. Senator Hanafin brought this omy with the Minister for Finance present. I to my attention on the Order of Business yester- intend to have a wide-ranging debate on this day and his proposal regarding ten new positions issue, which was called for last week. Senator in Seanad E´ ireann to accommodate the various Callely has now been appointed as spokesperson strands and views is certainly worthy of consider- on the Government side for enterprise, trade and ation. Perhaps in the long term there will be a 32- employment. I have no difficulty in requesting county Ireland where we will need extra seats in the Minister for Finance to come to the House to both the Da´il and Seanad. update us on the current state of the economy. Senator Terry Leyden: On a point of order, I Senator Mary M. White: Hear, hear. made a genuine request for a debate on the new European treaty. I would like the Leader to Senator Donie Cassidy: I would like to think respond to this, as Senator Regan made the that in looking forward to 2016, the 100th anni- same point. versary, we should be planning for additional facilities with the OPW. This should not be an Senator Donie Cassidy: My apologies, I had aspiration but could become a reality. I hope in this noted at the bottom of the page. the long term this will be one of our aims to be included in Seanad reform consideration. Senator Paul Coghlan: The Senator has fallen I cannot agree to the amendment to the Order off the bottom again. of Business. I know Senator Norris to be an Inde- pendent Member of respect and eminence, but Senator Donie Cassidy: I have no difficulty in the leader he has appointed, Senator O’Toole, allocating time for the very worthwhile request has already agreed—— made by Senators Leyden and Regan. We will try to organise that within the next three weeks Senator David Norris: We have no leader. because time is of the essence.

Senator Donie Cassidy: ——with other leaders. Senator Terry Leyden: I thank the Leader. An Cathaoirleach: I remind Senators that Senator David Norris: I have no leader. mobile phones must be switched off in the An Cathaoirleach: The Leader, without Chamber. When a phone is put on a silent setting, interruption. it still interferes with sound recordings. I request that Members turn off phones or leave them in Senator Donie Cassidy: I should not mention a the office or with secretaries. They should not be Member when he is not present. I have no diffi- brought into the Chamber. culty allocating time to facilitate a lengthy debate, Senator Norris has moved an amendment to as long as Members require, on Seanad reform. the Order of Business: “That No. 7, motion 15 be The business for today has been agreed and taken before No. 1.” Is the amendment being arranged with the Minister. I do not wish to see pressed? any Senator being accused of being opportunistic. Senator David Norris: I signalled this yesterday Business must be planned in a careful and mean- and we have plenty of time. Regarding watching ingful way, which is what Senators expect me to with bated breath, which is a wonderful mixed do as Leader of this House. metaphor, all the university Senators have con- If Senator Norris wishes to arrange a time with tributed to every debate on this. me after the Order of Business, I will have no difficulty in allocating a half day, a whole day or An Cathaoirleach: Is the amendment being even two days to the matter if the Senator pressed? believes there is enough demand from Senators to contribute. We will watch contributions with Senator David Norris: All I am suggesting is bated breath from all those Senators when the that we adopt the proposals. I am pushing the time is allocated. matter to a vote.

Senator Mary M. White: Hear, hear. Amendment put. 293 Coroners Bill 2007: 4 October 2007. Second Stage 294

The Seanad divided: Ta´, 24; Nı´l, 29.

Ta´

Bacik, Ivana. McCarthy, Michael. Bradford, Paul. McFadden, Nicky. Burke, Paddy. Mullen, Ro´ na´n. Buttimer, Jerry. Norris, David. Coffey, Paudie. O’Reilly, Joe. O’Toole, Joe. Coghlan, Paul. Prendergast, Phil. Cummins, Maurice. Regan, Eugene. Donohoe, Paschal. Ross, Shane. Fitzgerald, Frances. Ryan, Brendan. Hannigan, Dominic. Twomey, Liam. Healy Eames, Fidelma. White, Alex. Kelly, Alan.

Nı´l

Boyle, Dan. Keaveney, Cecilia. Brady, Martin. Kett, Tony. Butler, Larry. Leyden, Terry. Callanan, Peter. McDonald, Lisa. Callely, Ivor. O´ Domhnaill, Brian. Cannon, Ciaran. O´ Murchu´ , Labhra´s. Carty, John. O’Brien, Francis. Cassidy, Donie. O’Malley, Fiona. Corrigan, Maria. Ormonde, Ann. Daly, Mark. O’Sullivan, Ned. de Bu´ rca, De´irdre. Phelan, Kieran. Ellis, John. Walsh, Jim. Feeney, Geraldine. White, Mary M. Glynn, Camillus. Wilson, Diarmuid. Hanafin, John.

Tellers: Ta´, Senators Ivana Bacik and David Norris; Nı´l, Senators De´irdre de Bu´ rca and .

Amendment declared lost. Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Deputy Brian Lenihan): I am pleased to have Order of Business agreed to. this opportunity to introduce the Coroners Bill 2007 and to outline its main provisions. The Bill Coroners Bill 2007: Order for Second Stage. provides for a fundamental change and improve- ment to the coronial death investigation process Bill entitled an Act to amend, consolidate and in Ireland. The comprehensive reform measures extend the law relating to coroners, coroners’ proposed will transform the existing legislation — investigations and coroners’ inquests, to provide the Coroners Act 1962 — and structures which for the establishment of a body to be known as govern the work of the coroner and provide for an tSeirbhı´s Chro´ ine´ara or, in the English langu- the establishment of a new coroner service. These age, the Coroner Service, to define its functions, to provide for certain transitional matters includ- two elements are interdependent and together ing the completion of inquests commenced under are critical to the achievement of the successful the Coroners Act 1962, the transfer of certain outcome of the planned reform of this vital documents preserved under the Coroners Act public service. 1962 to the coroner service and the continuance The Bill incorporates many of the recom- in use of certain forms under that Act, to repeal mendations made by the working group on the certain enactments and provisions of enactments, review of the coroner service in 2000 and the cor- to amend certain enactments and to provide for oners rules committee in 2003. The Bill also has related matters. regard to recent developments in terms of juris- prudence and to ongoing reform of coroner Senator Diarmuid Wilson: I move: “That services in other common law jurisdictions such Second Stage be taken today”. as New Zealand, Australia and the United Question put and agreed to. Kingdom. The death of a loved one — whatever the cir- Coroners Bill 2007: Second Stage. cumstances — is, self-evidently, an event of major trauma. However, where the circumstances of a Question proposed: “That the Bill be now read death require further investigation, the coroner a Second Time”. plays a vital role in providing explanation and, 295 Coroners Bill 2007: 4 October 2007. Second Stage 296

[Deputy Brian Lenihan.] conduct the best possible death investigation and hopefully, some comfort through his or her are provided with the necessary administrative inquiries to the families and friends of the and technical supports to carry out their deceased person at a very difficult time. Coroners functions. are required to achieve that delicate balance The Bill represents the effective culmination of between performing their statutory function in a significant period of reflection and consider- ascertaining the cause of death while also remain- ation on this matter. In 1998, the then Minister ing sensitive to the grief of the family and close for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy friends of the deceased person. John O’Donoghue, began the reform process The coroner service is one of the oldest public when he established an expert working group to offices of state. The origins of this office can be review all aspects of the coroner service. The traced back almost a millennium to the 12th cen- review group comprised representatives from my tury. Historically, the main duty of the coroner Department, the Garda Sı´ocha´na, the Coroners was to protect the interests of the Crown in crimi- Society of Ireland, other Departments and nal cases hence the name coroner was given to offices, representatives from the health auth- the position. Over the years, many and varying orities, the medical and legal professions and duties have been imposed on coroners and these other stakeholders. have been refined in modern times into the criti- The group conducted the first far reaching cal role of inquiry into deaths. review of all aspects of the coroner service in While the role of coroner has been always con- Ireland. It examined equivalent services in appro- nected to unexplained deaths, the complexity and priate comparable jurisdictions. Following a importance of the modern coroner bears little broad consultation with interested parties, it iden- resemblance to his or her historical predecessor. tified issues which needed to be addressed to Today’s coroner has a very wide range of duties ensure the coroner service provides the best involving investigatory, administrative, judicial, response to present and future requirements. The preventative and educational functions. The cor- group was greatly assisted in its task by the sub- oner operates as an independent judicial officer missions it received from all stakeholders and required to establish the “who, when, where and particularly so from the submissions made by how” of an unexplained death. families who told of their experiences with the It is important to emphasise that the coroner is coroner service. not permitted to consider or pronounce on civil The report of the working group, entitled “Re- or criminal responsibility in respect of a death. view of the Coroner Service”, was published in The role of the coroner is, to the best of his or December 2000. It contained 110 recom- her ability and based on the evidence available, mendations covering a wide range of issues. The to establish the facts. The new coroner legislation work of the group was complemented by the sub- must also meet the requirements of the European sequent report of the coroners rules committee, Convention on Human Rights. The European which was published in November 2003. The Court of Human Rights has, through several recommendations of the review group and the judgments, validated the important and primary coroners rules committee have formed the basis role of the coroner’s inquest in fulfilling this for the formulation of this Bill. State’s obligations under the convention to inves- There has been only one change to the law tigate any death involving public authorities or since the Coroners Act of 1962. Some Senators institutions. The court has also interpreted may recall that the Government supported a Article 2 of the convention as providing for a Private Members’ Coroners (Amendment) Bill, more extensive investigation of the circumstances which was enacted in December 2005, as an of death and has indicated that an extension of urgent interim measure. It abolished the restric- the scope of the inquest is effectively required to tion on the number of medical witnesses at an meet the obligations of the convention. I note inquest and increased sanctions for reluctant or that in its report on the Bill, the Irish Human non-cooperative jurors and witnesses. The pro- Rights Commission welcomed the approach visions of the 2005 Act are subsumed into this adopted as meeting our obligations under Bill in sections 63 and 64. Article 2. The Bill was introduced earlier this year by my The current legislation dates back to 1962. predecessor, Michael McDowell. It represented However, in substance, the law and structures the culmination of these extensive consultations have changed little since the middle of the 19th with relevant Departments, the Office of the century. If a coroner from that era was to return Attorney General, statutory bodies, the Coroners today, he would recognise without great difficulty Society of Ireland and other stakeholders. the current situation. I do not exaggerate when I The Bill has two critical elements. These are say that this reform is not of an incremental nat- the widening of scope of the inquest and the ure but rather involves a jump of about 150 years. extension of the remit of the coroner and the The law in this area is in need of considerable development of optimum structures and admini- updating to ensure Irish coroners are equipped to stration for a modern coroner service. The Bill 297 Coroners Bill 2007: 4 October 2007. Second Stage 298 provides a statutory framework extending the this regard. It is not my intention to create any scope of an inquest, from investigating the proxi- unnecessary tension or diversion of investigative mate medical cause of death, to establishing in resources. We must be mindful to retain an over- what circumstances the deceased met his or her all coherence of approach. death. The current law in the 1962 Act, and as To that end, section 90 makes provision for interpreted by the courts, provides for a restric- necessary protocols of co-operation and infor- tive approach as to the examination at inquest of mation sharing between the coroner service and how a person died being limited to the proximate organisations such as An Garda Sı´ocha´na, the medical cause of death. Garda Ombudsman Commission and statutory The coroners review group recommended the bodies with responsibilities under other enact- extension of the remit of the coronial investi- ments to investigate accidents, incidents or dis- gation to encompass the wider circumstances sur- eases resulting in death. rounding a death. It recommended it I expect this co-operative approach, which 12 o’clock be expressed in positive terms in any respects the prerogatives of the bodies concerned, new legislation. In addition to its while retaining the central role of the coroner to recommendation, the developing jurisprudence properly conduct his or her inquest, will ensure of the European Court of Human Rights necessi- the best and most coherent approach to complex tated an address to this extension of remit. death investigations, without recourse to any A death under investigation by the coroner further legislative intervention. involves the continuation of an already traumatic The other main objective of the Bill is to estab- and stressful period for any family and friends of lish a new full-time coroner service. The review the deceased. However, the coroner service, as group was concerned about the need to ensure a the review group noted in its report, is “a service high quality coroner service with proper for the living” which in recognising the core value resources and supports available to it. It recom- of each human life seeks to provide an expla- mended an evolution to a regionalised structure nation for a sudden or unnatural death. In that where there would be fewer than the current his- regard, I highlight the important provision in torical provision of 48 coronial districts. section 36 which sets out for the first time in stat- The approach proposed in the Bill provides for ute the rights of a family to the fullest possible the transformation of the existing part-time cor- information as to a coroner’s investigations. This oner service, administered by individual coroners critical and necessary feature will be certainly in conjunction with local authorities, into a co- welcomed by families concerned. The provision ordinated national service under the aegis of the also helps to better fulfil our obligations under Department of Justice, Equality and Law the European Convention on Human Rights. Reform. It is proposed the new coroner service The Bill sets out explicitly new provisions in will comprise a chief coroner, deputy coroner, a the duty of the coroner to investigate a reportable certain number of full-time coroners and a fewer death and the powers of the coroner in con- number of part-time assistant coroners. The ducting the investigation into a death. It provides service will be organised on a regional basis with the coroner with the necessary supports in law to the number and extent of the regions to be pre- carry out his or her functions properly. Not all scribed by the Minister for Justice, Equality and death investigations by a coroner necessarily lead Law Reform, taking into account certain to the holding of a formal inquest. The cause of determining factors for an optimal service. death may be readily discernible without the need Provision has been also made for the employ- for an inquest. ment of coroners’ officers to assist the coroner in Where an inquest is required, the Bill sets out carrying out his or her duties under the Bill. A the procedures for the conduct of an inquest by director of the coroner service will be appointed the coroner. In the case of situations where there and will be responsible for its day-to-day admini- is a mandatory requirement to hold an inquest, stration. the Bill provides for more explicit provisions to The transition from the existing somewhat deal with those situations. These include deaths fragmented service into the new co-ordinated and in custody situations or of children in care where national service will require considerable plan- the State or its institutions have an involvement. ning and preparation. The Government has These new provisions on the investigation by approved the establishment of the coroner the coroner and on the inquest, taken together, service implementation office which will com- are intended to ensure the primacy of the role of mence the necessary arrangements for the new the coroner. The Bill, however, also seeks to service. In line with Government policy on decen- respect the roles and responsibilities of other tralisation, it will be based in Navan, County statutory bodies and agencies involved in specific Meath, and will be reconstituted as the head- types of death investigation, for example, when a quarters of the coroner service upon estab- workplace or travel-related incident is involved lishment. or where the State or its agents may be involved. Section 8, provides for the establishment of a There is a delicate balance to be maintained in coroner service. On the establishment of the 299 Coroners Bill 2007: 4 October 2007. Second Stage 300

[Deputy Brian Lenihan.] sion of the remit of the coroner. Detailed pro- service, full responsibility for coroners, including vision is made in sections 47 to 53, inclusive, as financial responsibility, will rest with the Minister to the proper and efficient conduct of inquests for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the and the procedures to be followed with a view to involvement of local authorities will cease. establishing best practice, efficiency and trans- Section 11, provides for a director of the service parency in the matter. who will administer the service and be respon- Section 54 provides for a new feature, the sible for the management and general control of power for the inquest to make recommendations the administration of the coroners service. No less designed to prevent future similar deaths and than two coroners, on a full-time basis, and no other hazards to life and to bring these to the less than one assistant coroner, on a part-time attention of appropriate persons. Where a recom- basis, will operate in each dedicated coroner mendation is addressed to a Department, a local region, as prescribed under section 12. authority or a statutory body, there is a formal A chief coroner will, under section 13, give pro- requirement on them that a written response be fessional leadership and direction to the coroner made to the coroner no later than six months service. Deaths as specified in sections 25 and 26 from the date of receipt of the recommendation, and the Third Schedule must be reported to a indicating the measures, if any, taken on foot of coroner and the persons required to report the the recommendation. death are also specified. The inquisitorial nature Where criminal proceedings are being con- of the coroner’s investigation, his or her indepen- sidered or are under way or certain other investi- dence in performing their functions under this gations are being carried out by the Garda Sı´och- Act and the requirement to have regard to the a´na and other mentioned public or statutory European Convention on Human Rights are authorities, the coroner must under sections 57 explicitly mentioned in section 27. to 59, inclusive, adjourn the inquest. There are The duty of the coroner to investigate a death provisions in sections 63 to 73, inclusive, relating is set out in section 28. Section 31 sets out the to witnesses and the involvement and functions procedures for coroners to investigate certain of juries at inquests. Juries will continue to be deaths which may occur outside the State. The required in certain defined circumstances. coroner, under sections 34 and 35, may issue a There are provisions in sections 74 to 77, certificate of fact of death which will authorise inclusive, relating to the conduct of post mortem disposal of the body and act as proof of the death examinations and other special examinations on in regard to any claim for entitlement, for behalf of the coroner. These are designed to example certain types of State payments. This inform and reassure the families of the deceased new certificate of fact of death is not to be con- regarding the procedures involved. There are also fused with the death certificate, issued ultimately provisions relating to the approval and conduct by the Registrar of Deaths, but an interim sol- of exhumation which may be required for a cor- ution designed to meet the needs of families oner’s investigation. affected. This will be welcomed by Members There is provision in sections 80 to 82, inclus- because of the practical problems many have ive, for a range of offences concerning failure to encountered with this matter. co-operate with an inquest or with a coroner, For the first time in legislation, the Bill sets out including offences by bodies corporate. On sum- in section 36, the duty of the coroner to provide mary conviction of offences, persons may face full and clear information concerning all stages of fines of up to \3,000 and up to 12 months’ impris- the death investigation process to the family of onment or both. Larger fines are provided for in the deceased person. Coroners have powers, respect of conviction on indictment. under sections 33, 37 and 38, of custody and The Bill provides in section 83 that the coroner removal of a body, and if necessary for their service will publish an annual report on its activi- investigations, of entry and inspection of prem- ties. Of particular importance is that the Bill pro- ises. Where the premises are a private dwelling, vides in section 86 that the Legal Aid Board may the authority of a District Court judge will be arrange for the granting of legal aid in pro- required. Coroners may seek, under section 41, ceedings before a coroner where a person has directions of the High Court on a point of law. died in, or resulting from being in, State custody There are detailed provisions in sections 43 to 46, or in certain institutional care situations. The inclusive, on the circumstances where the coroner effect of judgments of the European Court of is required to hold an inquest, on the coroner’s Human Rights — confirmed by the Irish courts general power to hold an inquest and the express — is that there must be provision for legal aid in purpose of the inquest. cases where there is involvement of the State in Section 46 provides for widening the scope of the circumstances of the death. the inquest from investigating the proximate Section 90 provides for the necessary co-oper- medical cause of death to establishing, in so far ation and information-sharing arrangements to be as practicable, in what circumstances the developed between the coroner service and the deceased met his or her death. This is the exten- Garda Sı´ocha´na, the Garda Ombudsman Com- 301 Coroners Bill 2007: 4 October 2007. Second Stage 302 mission and appropriate statutory bodies with Human Rights jurisprudence, and this is reflected responsibility for the investigation of accidents, in the Bill. incidents or diseases resulting in death. These lat- The widening of the scope of the inquest is a ter include primarily the Health and Safety Auth- fundamental change and one we also support. ority, the Road Safety Authority, the Railway Then there is the provision for legal aid in certain Safety Commission and the Air Accident Investi- circumstances, again as required by the European gation Unit. Court of Human Rights. There is also the issue of There are four Schedules to the Bill. In part- inquests into deaths that occur outside the State. icular, Schedule 3 sets out the categories of There have been cases where that has been an deaths to be reportable to a coroner and Schedule issue and it is good that this is reflected in the 4 relates to conditions of jury service at an Bill. inquest. Overall, it is an effort to adopt a professional Coroners in Ireland have done an excellent job approach to providing this service. Establishing a over the years in serving their communities and full-time service is the way to go and while we have gained the respect of the public. The debate will deal with specific amendments on Committee today affords me the opportunity to express on Stage, the real issue is whether the resources will behalf of the Government our appreciation for be put in place to implement the Bill’s provisions, their efforts. I am sure Senators will want to join especially in terms of the transition to a full-time me in expressing such appreciation. This new coroner service, the prompt conduct of examin- legislation will reinforce the role of the coroner ations and tests and the reporting on tests to the at the centre of the death investigation process. interested parties. Perhaps the Minister will com- The new system proposed in the Bill, incorporat- ment on that. I am also concerned that there ing legislative and structural and administrative should be a smooth transition from existing reform, will be in a position to provide a better arrangements to the full-time service and that the Coroners Society of Ireland should be facilitating service to the families of deceased persons and to that transition. society at large in explaining deaths and in alert- The Minister has sought the co-operation of all ing us to public safety and health issues. the Members and parties in this House. He will This reform, when fully implemented, will have the co-operation of in progressing mean an improved service, greater consistency of the Bill. It is important legislation and we will approach to death investigations and better and give him our full co-operation in that process. more timely information to families involved in the process. I look forward, with the support of Senator Jim Walsh: I welcome the Minister to the House, to the passage of the Bill and imple- the House, and I welcome this legislation. The mentation of the associated organisational and issue has been raised previously by the Joint structural reform. I commend the Bill to the Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and House. Women’s Rights in reports on some of the inves- tigations and inquiries held into people killed Senator Eugene Regan: I welcome the Minister arising from British collusion in this jurisdiction to the House. As the Fine Gael spokesman on during the Troubles of the past 30 years. justice, I am delighted to address this Bill. It is an initiative that has been sought by the I welcome the fact that the Minister has listed Coroners Society of Ireland, the Coroners this legislation among one of his priorities. It was Review Group and the Coroners Rules Commit- listed in the Government’s legislative programme tee in 2003. It is to equip coroners to conduct the for 2003-04 and then it was to be available in best possible investigations into death. Perhaps as 2005. The report of the working group on the we explore the Bill we can bear this in mind and review of the coroner service was produced in see whether it achieves that. 2000, so this is really an important Bill which There are two broad parameters to the legis- should have been available quite some time ago. lation. One is to widen the scope of the inquest I therefore welcome the fact that the present and the remit of the coroner from investigating Minister is moving on this issue with despatch. the proximate cause of death to establishing the We welcome the Bill. It puts a professional and circumstances. Then there is the development of transparent structure on this whole service. In the the structures and administration within the cor- context of inquests that arise, it involves issues oner service. In that regard, it is important we in the most varied of circumstances which cause seek to ensure there is no possibility of any extraordinary distress to families of the deceased. intrusion into the independence of coroners’ The provisions in the Bill that deal expressly with investigations and how they make their decisions. notices to families of inquests and the involve- It will be a new full-time coroner service, co- ment of families and interested persons in the ordinated at national level under the aegis of the process is to be welcomed. It is evident that the Department of Justice, Equality and Law legislative basis of inquests had to be adjusted Reform. As the Minister said, it is intended that and updated in the light of European Court of it will be done regionally. I note Senator Regan 303 Coroners Bill 2007: 4 October 2007. Second Stage 304

[Senator Jim Walsh.] Senator Jim Walsh: Under Part 3, the Minister has welcomed the fact that it is to be a full-time may make regulations providing for coroners’ service and I have no doubt there is a need for a rules. It struck me that should be mandatory move in that direction. However, will all coroners rather than discretionary and, presumably, it will need to be full-time? We have a system which, happen. Part 4 deals with the reporting of deaths despite its flaws and shortcomings, operates with to the coroner and the various categories of reasonable success on a part-time basis. There is deaths. I see the logic behind that in regard to also the question of expertise which may be lost suicide, suspected suicide and suspected assisted because we are moving from a part-time to a full- suicide. However, where death occurs from time service. This is something that might, per- natural causes, which are obvious to everybody, haps, be examined. there is no need for an inquest. Why is there such There is a statutory entitlement in the Bill for a requirement where it is patently obvious a a coroner to receive assistance from the Garda suicide has occurred? I am prompting a little dis- Sı´ocha´na. A garda can carry out a direction of the cussion on that because it is often a very sensitive coroner only if the Commissioner accepts it is not issue for families. What is the logic behind that in conflict with any given by the Commissioner. requirement? To some extent, that perhaps impinges on the In regard to unnatural stillbirths and intra-uter- independence of the coroner. Perhaps there will ine deaths, I notice there is no reference to an be cases in which it will be necessary to address aborted foetus, for example. The Constitution that. Section 21(5) states: “A member of the provides for the equal right to life. Should that Garda Sı´ocha´na shall not act as a coroner’s matter be addressed in the Bill? It is an issue of officer in any investigation by a coroner into a which politicians tend to steer clear because it is death of a person in or immediately after being controversial and fraught with many legal compli- in Garda custody”. I see reasons for that but how cations and issues. does the coroner fill that void? I fully understand why if a person is under I refer to the qualifications. To become a chief Garda Sı´ocha´na, military or prison custody at the time of death or immediately before his or her coroner, an assistant coroner or a coroner, one death, it must be reported. That leads me to an must have ten years’ experience either as a barris- issue which arose last week which is not entirely ter or a practising solicitor or be a registered related but, nonetheless, connected where there medical practitioner. What is the practice inter- was an intervention by the Garda Ombudsman nationally in that regard? To the best of my into an inquest. Such interventions should be knowledge, I do not believe this provision would addressed given that the function of the Garda debar any existing barristers. However, the fact a Ombudsman is now being rolled out. We must coroner may come from one of two professions have regard for people who might be under the indicates there will be a deficit in the expertise of microscope as the gardaı´ were in this case. Where a coroner in one of the disciplines. I accept that a complaint is made, there should be some discre- person can fill that deficit through other means. tion. There should also be some time lines in The corollary is that a person who has a deficit in respect of an intervention. I appreciate that in both disciplines could, if he or she had the apti- this case the Garda Ombudsman is a new func- tude and ability, do the job effectively by filling tionary within the system. No time lines are men- both of those deficits. A person who is a medical tioned in the Bill in regard to the holding of practitioner would obviously have a greater inquests. understanding of the results of a post mortem. For time to time, there have been complaints The fact a coroner can come from one of two by families about delays encountered in estab- professions shows that if he or she does not have lishing inquests. At a time of great trauma for the expertise, compensatory mechanisms can be families, that seems unfair and unjust. Perhaps put in place. that will be improved now that we are moving to To some extent, we are talking about two very a full-time situation but there should be an obli- sheltered professions which have not really been gation to operate within certain time lines. I tackled from a competition point of view and I appreciate the difficulty in that the complexity of suppose I come with that baggage to this debate. an investigation will have a bearing on when an We have been very remiss in not addressing that inquest is held. However, the Bill should provide issue. I compliment the Minister for Health and that inquests are held as soon as possible. That Children for her courage in taking on vested would conform with the broad thrust of the Euro- interests in the health service. I have not seen the pean Convention on Human Rights to which the same enthusiasm for taking on the vested Minister referred. interests in the legal profession. The country Part 7 relates to the conduct of the inquest and could benefit from doing that. the mandatory notice of 14 days. Section 47 states: “A coroner shall, whether by post or such Senator Eugene Regan: The new Minister will other means as he or she considers suitable, do that. arrange for the notification of any or all of the 305 Coroners Bill 2007: 4 October 2007. Second Stage 306 following persons”. Does that mean there is an An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Is that agreed? obligation to inform the family? Another section Agreed. provides that where an investigation is under- taken, there are mandatory obligations on the Senator Ro´ na´n Mullen: Ba bhrea´ liom fa´ilte a coroner. However, section 47 states a coroner is chur roimh an Aire agus tre´aslu´ leis as an mBille required to notify “any or all of the following per- ta´bhachtach seo. Ta´ se´ thar am go mbeadh a lei- sons”. If he or she notifies one or two of the three the´id de reachtaı´ocht os a´r gcomhair. This is a mentioned, that meets the requirement. very important Bill and the Minister is to be com- In one of the inquiries held by an Oireachtas mended on introducing it. As he stated, it pro- sub-committee — I am not sure if it was the poses to replace legislation that has been in place inquiry into the murder of Seamus Ludlow — for 45 years. The Coroners Act 1962 came into there were strong complaints by the family in effect when Charles J. Haughey was Minister for regard to the conduct of the inquest. The family Justice. Despite the one amendment alluded to was only notified on the morning of the inquest by the Minister for Justice Equality and Law that it was taking place. We were all ad idem that Reform, Deputy Brian Lenihan, there has been should not be the case. I presume it has been cor- no other significant legislative reform. I note what rected in the Bill but if it has not been, perhaps the Minister said on the review sponsored by his the Minister might respond. Department. The review group reported in 2000 I referred to the adjournment of cases. A broad and made a number of recommendations, and it spectrum of bodies can seek an adjournment. has been a long journey to this point. The original People representing the Coroners Society of Act had 59 sections while the current substantial Ireland have expressed some concerns in this Bill has 92. The proposed reform of the coronial regard. The spectrum is much broader than here- system is very welcome and long overdue. tofore. This should be considered because inter- It is interesting to reflect on why a new vention such as that of last week should not be arrangement is proposed. For a significant number of people, the only forum in which the used as a last-minute response to a complaint. circumstances of a death can be investigated is One point made by the Coroners’ Society of through a coroner’s inquiry. Most cases do not Ireland concerns the powers of the chief coroner. result in civil or criminal proceedings and it is The society is concerned about the extent to therefore important to reflect on the public which these might impinge on the independence importance of the coroner’s role. of individual coroners. It is imperative that what- As the Minister stated, to comply with the ever procedures are in place do not allow this to requirements of Article 2 of the European Con- happen. Ultimately, this is under the control of vention on Human Rights, there must be pro- the Department. Any development that impinges vision for an extensive inquiry system like that on the control of a coroner would be unwelcome proposed. It is a significant advance on what was and any mushrooming of agencies that could in place previously and its importance might be impede the speed of coroners’ inquests should recognised in light of our own Constitution’s be avoided. guarantee to vindicate the right to life of the A point was made on the over-centralisation of person. death investigations and the Coroners’ Society of I have but a few observations and concerns Ireland seems to be under the impression that the regarding the Bill. Sections 13, 15 and 17 provide service would be centralised in Navan. The office that the chief coroner, deputy chief coroner and will be in Navan but it would be a little incongru- coroners would be appointed by the Executive, ous if all death investigations were conducted by warrant of the Government. It is to be noted therefrom. Local investigations could be more that heretofore coroners were appointed by local expeditious and effective. authorities. There were good historical reasons I am aware this Bill was published last April for doing so. If a coroner was to rack up charges and that, as a consequence of the election, there on ratepayers, he or she had to be answerable has not been much time for full consultation. The locally. Bill has not been discussed by the Oireachtas One must ask whether the new provision Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence regarding the appointment of coroners by the and Women’s Rights. There should be an oppor- Executive will affect compliance with our obli- tunity for committees and the Coroners’ Society gations under the European Convention on of Ireland to engage with the Minister to ensure Human Rights. Is there sufficient arm’s length to the changes he rightly says are long overdue are allow full compliance with the convention given made in a cohesive way that ensures significant that the Government will appoint coroners and improvement to existing services. that its interests might be involved? It is probably not a problem bearing in mind that judges are Senator Ro´ na´n Mullen: I propose to share my Government appointees. Judges, too, must time with Senators and Joe O’Toole. review Executive actions from time to time. 307 Coroners Bill 2007: 4 October 2007. Second Stage 308

[Senator Ro´ na´n Mullen.] can be opened or are they meant to be disjunc- Nonetheless, one must ask why there is a depar- tive? The coroner ought to be empowered, as of ture from the previous arrangement. right, to open an inquiry on the application of an It is clear that the Bill streamlines the Coroners interested party. Service. At present, there are part-time coroners Section 34 provides for the giving of a certifi- who are doctors, solicitors or barristers. Under cate of the fact of death, reflecting the de facto the new legislation, full-time coroners will be practice that is currently done on an informal appointed for different regions. It also provides basis. I wonder if such a certificate is now neces- that there will be a threshold requirement con- sary or sufficient to get a State benefit or to make cerning the duration of previous practice in one’s a claim under an insurance policy. For that profession. Section 23 stipulates that, once reason, I welcome the new provision, which seeks appointed as chief coroner, deputy chief coroner to reflect the de facto practice, especially as or coroner, one cannot continue to practise as a delays are often encountered in the system when solicitor or barrister. These provisions do not people try to secure rights and benefits. I also apply to doctors. Is it contemplated that medical welcome section 41, which provides for a con- practitioners, who are also entitled to be sultative case to be stated by the coroner for the appointed to these positions, will be required to opinion of the High Court. give up their medical careers? Will the Minister The next main issue I would like to flag con- enlighten us as to why there is a distinction cerns post mortems, which are dealt with in Part between members of the legal profession and 10 of the Bill. Section 74 provides that a coroner those of the medical profession? Is it contem- may ask a medical practitioner to conduct an plated that it would be impossible to get doctors examination or post mortem. I am aware of a cor- to take on the job if they were required to give oner in the north east who was unable to secure up their existing medical practices? the services of a pathologist locally, which gave Section 24 of the legislation provides for cor- rise to particular problems and unnecessary oners’ rules in a very welcome way. We had no delays in completing necessary post mortem previous rules of court and Appendix J of the examinations. It resulted in bodies being moved Review of the Coroner Service sets out minimum around the State to different hospitals to conduct requirements in this area. No doubt these or post mortems, thereby causing unnecessary dis- similar rules will commend themselves to the tress and grief to family members. This proposed Minister, who will have the power to make rules. legislation seems to contemplate that this unfor- Section 27(3) makes specific reference to the tunate set of circumstances will be perpetuated. European Convention on Human Rights and the A coroner should be entitled to invoke the assist- fact that the coroner shall have regard to the pro- ance of local publicly-funded pathology services visions thereof. The urging of coroners to have on a statutory basis. If industrial relations issues regard to these rights is very welcome, partic- need to be addressed, the Minister should do so ularly in light of our constitutional context. with some urgency. This problem was flagged Let me address some specific matters of con- seven years ago in the report of the working cern. Section 31 deals with deaths outside the group. Section 74(1) should state that the coroner State. I am aware that when British military per- “shall direct” rather than “may request”. sonnel are killed on active service abroad, the Part 10 of the Act also provides that a coroner coroner in the place in which the deceased would is not required to investigate any death that normally have resided in Britain may inquire into occurred more than 70 years ago — prior to 1937. the circumstances of the death. In the United If the chosen year was 1932, when Fianna Fa´il Kingdom there have been a number of high-pro- came into government, cynics might question the file cases involving friendly fire. creation of this exclusion zone. Why has such a It could never be desirable that parents or specific cut-off point been chosen? family members would find themselves up against a wall of silence where a death abroad is con- An Leas-Chathaoirleach: I understand that cerned. One cannot obtain the findings of an Senator Mullen is sharing time. Army inquiry when somebody dies in the field and therefore the only way in which a family Senator Ro´ na´n Mullen: I apologise to Senator might get answers is by way of a coroner’s inves- Ross for not giving way. The other Senator with tigation. whom I had intended to share time is absent from The provisions of section 31 appear to be con- the Chamber. In conclusion, I am concerned that junctive and I wonder whether they are not sup- the provisions for granting legal aid are too posed to be disjunctive. There is a strong case to uncertain. There appears to be too much vague- be made for a domestic coroner to be empowered ness about the circumstances in which legal aid to inquire into the death of a member of the might be granted. It should be made clear that Defence Forces or a garda overseas. Are all the legal aid is available on a means-tested basis, provisions in the various subsections of section 31 rather than being decided on by the coroner in a supposed to apply before such an investigation vague manner that might give rise to inequality. 309 Coroners Bill 2007: 4 October 2007. Second Stage 310

I apologise again to my colleagues with whom I I presume this legislation has been introduced on am sharing time. I commend the Bill, with the the basis that the expansion of that remit to allow reservations I have mentioned. coroners to report on the general circumstances of a death necessitates the establishment of new Senator Shane Ross: I would like to broadly agencies, including the Garda Sı´ocha´na welcome the thrust and idea of this reforming Ombudsman. Bill. I understand the motivation for it. I do not The problem outlined by the coroners is that doubt that the attempt being made to modernise this legislation will result in many delays. The the coroners office is well founded and necessary. Minister said earlier that he hopes there will not I am sure the principles which underpin this legis- be any great tensions between the various bodies. lation will be the subject of all-party agreement. If there are many State agencies with different The response that this Bill has received from agendas, presumably they will all seek adjourn- certain vested interests has not been completely ments from time to time for various reasons. It unanimous and uncritical, however, in contrast to is certain that the agencies will have their own the response that was given to the review group’s agendas, even if they are laudable agendas. There report in 2000. I wonder whether the coroners, has been a tradition of almost inevitably granting who are somewhat involved in this matter and an adjournment to the Garda Sı´ocha´na if it asks were represented on the review group, were a coroner’s inquiry for such an adjournment. If properly consulted before the Bill was drafted. bodies like the Health and Safety Authority and There is some discontent among the coroners the Garda Sı´ocha´na Ombudsman are, like the about what is happening in this Bill. It is regret- Garda itself, able to play separate parts in cor- table that the last Minister for Justice, Equality oners’ inquiries, they may take a long time to con- and Law Reform was unable to meet the coroners clude. That would extend the difficulties of the before this legislation was drafted. It would have families of the bereaved, to some extent, which is been appropriate if he had done so because it not the purpose of the Bill. The Minister might would have made the Bill a little less contentious. think of a way around this problem. I do not On foot of that difficulty, Senator O’Toole and I know whether he should contemplate having two intend to propose some amendments when Com- separate types of inquiry which each pursue the mittee Stage is taken to reflect some of the cor- two goals which are moulded together in this Bill. oners’ worries about this Bill. It is obvious that their concerns were not directly put to the Mini- Acting Chairman (Senator Michael McCarthy): ster or his predecessor before the Bill was The Senator’s time has expired. brought to the House. Senator Shane Ross: Has the time I had It is important the coroners office should be intended to share with Senator O’Toole modernised. I welcome the obvious concern in concluded? the Bill to ensure that the needs of the families of the deceased are paramount. There is an obvious Acting Chairman: I am informed that there is desire in the legislation to ensure that families are no time left in this slot, which began over 15 kept informed and better informed about what is minutes ago. going on. I think that concern is human rights-led rather than local-led. Families should be given Senator Shane Ross: That is fair enough. I can full information at all times about what happens inform the Chair that Senator O’Toole intends to when there is an inquest — they should be com- table amendments on Committee Stage. forted to some extent. The Bill reflects the need to ensure that coroners’ inquiries are held for the Acting Chairman: I thank Senator Ross. bereaved and not for anybody else. I would like to highlight some of the coroners’ Senator Shane Ross: I will speak for one more worries. I ask the Minister to reflect on them and minute before I conclude. The coroners fear that to consider amendments aimed at addressing the new arrangements will lead to delays of three them on Committee Stage. The coroners’ main or four years, which would not be in the interests worry is an understandable one. They have done of justice or the families. I will summarise the an effective job in difficult administrative circum- remaining matters about which the coroners are stances without any backup, but they have real concerned in the 35 seconds of speaking time concerns about the introduction of these new which are left to me. State agencies. As I understand it, the agencies Failure to separate the administrative and are being established to allow for the future investigative quasi-judicial functions in this Bill is widening of the remit of the coroners’ inquiries. a cause for concern. This Bill is primary legis- The Minister can correct me if I am wrong. In the lation and there is a concern that it is over-pre- past, such inquiries were really only concerned scriptive. Some of the regulations and clauses in with establishing the cause of death. Their remit the Bill could well be left for the regulations gov- will now be widened to explain and investigate erning coroners rather than be contained in the general circumstances surrounding the death. primary legislation. I also note the lack of trans- 311 Coroners Bill 2007: 4 October 2007. Second Stage 312

[Senator Shane Ross.] Party also has concerns about this issue. The itional arrangements in the Bill, which has caused investigation and decisions made regarding a a great deal of concern to coroners. I acknowl- death should have practical independence from edge the Minister is new to this portfolio and it is those implicated and there should be a lack of not his fault. I ask him to give greater consider- institutional connection between the complaints ation to the views of coroners when taking body and those being investigated. This applies in amendments to the Bill. particular to deaths while in Garda custody and the death of a person while in hospital or in Senator De´irdre de Bu´ rca: I welcome the Mini- another State institution. Perhaps the Minister ster to the House and thank him for his compre- would comment on this point. hensive overview of the Coroners Bill 2007. The The also notes the provision to Green Party welcomes this legislation because, as retain the use of juries at inquests, unlike the the Minister has pointed out, the legislative trend in other common law jurisdictions. Will the changes proposed within it represent a major Minister explain the reason for this decision to reform of the law dealing with the investigation retain the use of juries at inquests? I note the of deaths and the overall role of the coroner. The mandatory use of juries in the case of death by Bill will allow the coroner service, which, as the road accident has been dispensed with. Minister said, is one of the State’s oldest public Another speaker referred to the issue of services, to be transformed from a part-time suicide. While I would not expect a technical Bill service administered by individual coroners in such as this to go into the details of how an conjunction with local authorities to a modern, inquest would treat deaths by suicide, I wish to co-ordinated national service. The purpose of the make a personal appeal to the Minister. I am comprehensive reform of the existing legislation involved with the Bray suicide support group and and the replacement of the Coroners Act 1962 is I am very aware of the anguish experienced by to take into account the contemporary jurispru- families. The inquest is often held well after the dence of the Irish courts and the European Court death and this reactivates the pain and anguish of Human Rights. The Green Party is of the view experienced by the family and friends of the that this Bill has succeeded in doing this to a quite deceased. The conditions and circumstances in satisfactory extent. which the inquest takes place are far from sym- The Green Party regards certain provisions of pathetic or appropriate, given those circum- the Bill as being significant, such as the ability of stances. The ad hoc and somewhat informal nat- an inquest to examine the circumstances of a ure of the coroners service to date means that death and not merely its medical causes. This will families have found themselves in the public gaze provide an improved service to families of and having to listen to the accounts of other deceased persons because it will help both to families who have been through equally difficult explain deaths and to draw attention to possible circumstances as a result of a death of a loved public health and safety issues surrounding one through suspected suicide. Given the growing deaths. number of young people dying by suicide, per- The Green Party also welcomes the fact that haps the Minister would consider providing for the Bill specifically defines MRSA as a reportable sensitivity in the procedures and the circum- death. This is significant because fear of litigation stances in which such inquests are carried out. often prevents hospitals and other institutions I welcome this Bill which the Green Party sees from carrying out such reporting. as essential in modernising the coroner service Other significant provisions in the Bill include and ensuring the service operates in a way that stronger powers for coroners to enter premises reflects the principles of contemporary human and seize documents on foot of a court order; the rights legislation and good international practice. lifting of the current restriction on the number We acknowledge the resourcing of this service of witnesses coroners may call to an inquest; the will be vital and we hope to be part of a Govern- introduction of new offences for those who refuse ment that provides for that effectively. The pro- to give evidence and the introduction of High cess of transition from the current to the planned Court orders to oblige them to do so; new powers service will be challenging and will require careful for the coroner to call expert witnesses; and the and effective planning. The Green Party hopes granting of free legal aid in certain cases involving to support the Minister and his Department in a death while in the care or custody of State carrying out this process. institutions. Senator Mullen raised a concern about the pro- Senator Alex White: I welcome the Minister to posed independence of the appointments process the House and I welcome this Bill on behalf of and the Green Party echoes those concerns. Inde- the Labour Party. I am relatively new to this issue pendence is one of the very necessary criteria for although many of us will have personal experi- an effective investigation. Senator Ross also quer- ence of the coroner service, as I have myself over ied the failure to separate the investigative and the years on sad occasions. I have also profession- judicial functions of the coroner and the Green ally represented families before coroners. 313 Coroners Bill 2007: 4 October 2007. Second Stage 314

I am dealing with this issue in the round for the resources available to a coroner should never first time and I wish to commend the drafters of enter into the calculation of what is a reportable this Bill on the clarity of language largely to be death. Either a death is properly reportable in the found in the Bill. Legislation is often criticised for public interest or it is not. There should be no arcane, difficult and sometimes indecipherable question of resources or the absence of them provisions and wording, but this Bill as drafted is entering into that calculation. a model of clarity and it is relatively easy to navi- A coroner is required to arrive at and publish gate one’s way around it. That is not to say we a verdict. It might be worthwhile to look again at agree with every element of the Bill. the different types of verdict. We are familiar I agreed with the Minister when he stated that with the different verdicts in the coroners rules society and the community owe a great debt of that currently apply but they might bear further gratitude to coroners who have served over the analysis and consideration. Will the Minister con- decades. They have provided an invaluable public sider defining and clarifying the different types of service in such a sensitive area. verdict in the primary legislation? I welcome the I note the 1962 Act is well beyond its time for reference to the recommendation. We are fam- review and needs to be repealed and replaced by iliar with cases where a jury might make a recom- this legislation. It has only been subject to amend- mendation, often in the case of a death that ment on one occasion and I am proud to note occurred as a result of a public health failing. that such amendment was done by my party two There is a welcome provision in the Bill that years ago when Private Members’ legislation was rather than a recommendation being made, and required to be introduced to deal with a specific perhaps forgotten, the public body concerned issue at that time. It is now time to deal with the must respond within a specified period and indi- wider Bill and the issues it deals with. cate what, if anything, it has done in respect of Without prejudice to our entitlement to intro- the recommendation. duce amendments on Committee Stage, I note Section 57 in respect of adjournments has been the provision which broadens out the investi- somewhat controversial. It was mentioned by gation which a coroner is required to Senator Walsh. The section makes it abundantly 1 o’clock undertake. The who, where, why and clear which bodies shall be entitled to apply to an how those of us practising in that inquest for an adjournment. The Oireachtas has area are all familiar with will be augmented by established a Garda Ombudsman Commission the provision that the coroner will also be required to look at the wider circumstances lead- and it is entirely appropriate that the commission ing to the death of the individual concerned. This should have the power to seek an adjournment of will give a broader remit to the coroner and is to an inquest. That power should not be watered be welcomed. down or varied by the Minister during the pass- As a number of speakers have said, it is vital age of this legislation. It is important to have a that the coroner is independent in the conduct of Garda Ombudsman Commission and to protect his or her duties. This is emphasised in the Bill the interests of persons who make complaints to but it should also be noted in this debate. In it. When a person makes a complaint it does not Senator Walsh’s thoughtful contribution, he quer- necessarily follow that the complaint will be ied whether it was necessary or appropriate that upheld but the person is entitled to the due pro- coroners should operate in a full-time capacity. I cess which the Garda Ombudsman Commission believe it is, as it is consistent with the require- will apply to the complaint. Other powers and ment that they be independent in the conduct of responsibilities have been given to the Garda their duties and that they have no conflicts of Ombudsman Commission which it must carry out interest. With regard to conflicts of interest, the in the public interest, and it is entirely appro- worry is never actually about a conflict but about priate that it have this power. the perception of a conflict. It appears to be con- There was a controversy last week into which I sistent with a requirement which flows from the will not stray, but comments were made in the European Convention on Human Rights but House in respect of that incident. It is inap- which in any event is proper, that a coroner propriate to suggest that it ought never to happen should be absolutely independent in the manner or that it should not happen. It is all very well for of his or her appointment and also in the conduct Senator Ross or the coroners or other bodies to of his or her duties. To act part time or to have say there is a proliferation of public agencies but to work elsewhere to earn money is not consistent an agency such as the Garda Ombudsman Com- with that requirement. I would respectfully dis- mission was established for a reason. If there is agree with any suggestion that this element of the to be joined-up public service and administration, Bill might be changed. it is right that the commission should have that Section 25 deals with reportable deaths, which power of intervention. are listed in the Schedule. We will examine this in I note Senator Walsh’s comments in respect of more detail on Committee Stage but reportable timely interventions and that perhaps there deaths should only be determined in the context should be some restrictions regarding the timing of what the Bill is seeking to achieve. The of such interventions. I would be happy to con- 315 Coroners Bill 2007: 4 October 2007. Second Stage 316

[Senator Alex White.] of a particular death. Nowadays we have become sider any suggestions made in that regard once more and more attuned to modern day living and they do not disturb the fundamental position, accidental deaths. It is obvious that reform of the namely, that the Garda Ombudsman Commission current system is long overdue. and the other bodies mentioned ought to have The Minister said in his speech that he could the power to ask the coroner to adjourn an jump back 150 years. Certain parts of the system inquest. If it is right for the Garda to do it, why are medieval to say the least. Last year coroners should it not also be right for the Garda Ombuds- dealt with 11,142 cases, and from them we had man Commission or other similar bodies to do it 2,085 inquests. That adds to the argument that we where they are investigating a complaint? need a full-time coroner’s service. In that regard I welcome the provision in section 63 relating I welcome this Bill. The coroner service must be to witnesses. It is a clarification and extension of professionally run. The aspects of the Bill that the power of the coroner to call witnesses, and deal with administration and so on are overdue, gives the coroner appropriate powers to ensure but are widely welcomed. Members of the public that witnesses attend and give evidence. There is do not feel that they are dealt with professionally also a welcome provision regarding legal aid. in the Coroner’s Court. This Bill redresses this Some Members said that the circumstances in situation and for that it is welcome. which legal aid might be granted were not The coroners are concerned that we appear to sufficiently clear. Perhaps the Minister might fail in this Bill to separate the administrative, respond to that. The Bill sets out various types of investigative and quasi-judicial functions of the deaths in respect of which legal aid could be coroner. That is something on which I would wel- granted to somebody who wishes to attend an come the Minister’s comment. Perhaps the cor- inquest, rather than the aid relating to the means oner’s rules could address this area. of the person. That, perhaps, refers back to the However, this legislation represents a compre- legal aid provisions so there might be a relation- hensive overhaul of the system. I welcome the ship between the two provisions which we can fact that this will be regionally based and I would deal with later, if necessary. ask that the coroner’s appointed will have local The Irish Human Rights Commission proposed knowledge. If the coroner appointed is no longer to the Minister that gardaı´ ought not act as cor- the local person appointed by the county oner’s officers where an inquest is dealing with councils, we must ensure that a coroner with local a death that took place in Garda custody. That knowledge is appointed. That is very important. proposal has been incorporated in the Bill. When we are moving from 42 offices to a regional However, the commission also suggested that basis we need to be mindful of that. gardaı´ should not act as officers where the death The greater powers the coroner will have to had occurred as a result of Garda operations. investigate the wider circumstances of a death, as That has not been included in the Bill. Perhaps opposed to the narrow powers currently there are the Minister would reconsider this. Where a welcome. It will bring a whole new facet into death occurs arising from a Garda operation it the investigation. would not be appropriate for a garda to act as a The process whereby the coroner will be coroner’s officer. allowed to make a recommendation is a very wel- The important aspect of the legislation is that come development in this Bill. It will allow the it sets up a professional service which will operate coroner to comment. Senator Walsh mentioned at a high standard. We ought to have such a suicide in his thoughtful submission on the Bill. It service. I agree with Senator de Bu´ rca that it must is very important that we can comment on certain be well resourced. Many of us have attended cor- aspects of suicide cases, to suggest for example oners’ courts where the facilities are inadequate, that this should not happen again or to speak on to say the least, which makes the process even matters of public importance. The example that more stressful for the people concerned. The springs to mind is the example of the Wexford Minister should ensure that the coroners’ courts coroner commenting on the aspects of the deaths and their facilities are at a high standard so the of the Grace family, Sharon Grace and her two highest quality service can be provided to the little daughters. He was widely criticised for it. community. However, it is important the coroner has that power because it can ensure that certain suicide Senator Lisa McDonald: I welcome the Bill. cases will not happen again. Unfortunately, unexplained deaths, murders and The most important point, when we bring accidental deaths have become commonplace in everything together in this Bill is that family our society. In the not too distant past, people members are given a status and the coroner is and the country generally would have been obliged to keep them informed of developments. shocked by the circumstances of such deaths. It is humane and certainly within the spirit of the There were days in the not too distant past when European Convention on Human Rights. A criti- people would have been shocked and the whole cism of the current system is that families are not country would have reeled at the circumstances briefed. Ultimately, the ability to impart more 317 Coroners Bill 2007: 4 October 2007. Second Stage 318 information to families will assist in what is a in results being returned from post mortems, tragic circumstance for any family. which causes much unnecessary stress for I agree with Senator Walsh when he says that families. I am aware where people were told it perhaps we could look at the timeframe and could take up to nine months to have toxicology include time limits into the Bill. It would be a reports returned. The circumstances were tragic cause of concern for the ombudsman, the Garda and thanks to the intervention of the Ombuds- and so on, whose involvement is crucial, that man, the reports were returned within two matters would be delayed. Such delays in inquests months. This is unacceptable. A genuine attempt mean that family members suffer because they is being made through this legislation to address cannot get on with their lives. We need to guard these problems. against that and I would welcome the Minister’s The legislation has the potential to be excellent comments on it. in that it gives coroners the resources they require I hope the interim measure of a certificate of to provide a professional and more modern the fact of death will be accepted by insurance service. We should remember that the coroner companies, banks, etc. as a substitute until the service is one for the living, for those left behind. death certificate is issued. This issue was raised I am glad to be a Member of the House to see by Senator Ro´ na´n Mullen. I have queries regard- the legislation being passed and I will watch it ing the Legal Aid Board in the context of the Bill carefully in the future. on which I would welcome the Minister’s comments. Senator Frances Fitzgerald: I congratulate the Remuneration of barristers, solicitors, medical Minister on his new portfolio and wish him well practitioners and such people is vital to ensure in it. There is a specific issue to which I draw his they partake in the process and to avoid a attention in the context of the Bill and in which I situation where we cannot recruit coroners for ask him to take a particular interest to see what the posts. Budgetary aspects must be examined he can do through the legislation that would be to ensure a smooth transition. I will welcome the of assistance. The issue is suicide recording prac- Minister’s comments on the aspects of this that tices. The Bill is relevant to this and perhaps the have been agreed. It is important given that, in Minister and his officials would examine the legis- being asked to take on the role of coroner, people lation in this context to see whether any amend- are being asked to forgo what could be poten- tially a lucrative career. ments to it are necessary or whether it is a ques- tion of practice. In addition, during his discussion The Bill is a fundamental change and improve- ment of the current coronial death investigation with the coroners, he should examine what would system. I commend it to the House. be helpful in this area. As we know, suicide and self-harm is a significant public health issue. For Senator : I wish to share time example, 493 deaths by suicide occurred in 2004, with Senator Frances Fitzgerald. I welcome the and nearly 11,000 episodes of self-harm were Minister to the House and thank him for staying recorded in our accident and emergency depart- to listen to Members’ contributions. I am aware ments. This is a major issue, and there are many of his busy schedule. agencies dealing with it — the Irish Association In my brief contribution, I wish to emphasise of Suicidology, the National Office for Suicide and focus on the impact on families of the Prevention, and the National Suicide Research deceased. I have seen at first hand, as I am sure Foundation — and much work being done. We have many public representatives, the stress and also have a National Strategy for Action on trauma families suffer when a family member dies Suicide Prevention. There is currently a proposal in tragic circumstances and during the fulfilment to establish a national inquiry into suicide in of the inquest process. Ireland, in which the coroners could play an Fine Gael welcomes the general thrust of the interesting and useful role. There is also dis- Bill which certainly will streamline and modern- cussion of a pilot project involving a number of ise what has been and ad hoc system to date, the coroners in Cork. The Minister’s Department excellent service coroners have given notwith- should encourage this and make sure the project standing. It is important in passing legislation to takes place. provide the resources to deliver on its provisions. The new Coroners Bill and the management There is no point in doing otherwise. Unless we structure proposed within it offer the opportunity deliver to the families, where it matters, there is to collect more robust, systematic data on suicide no point in legislating in this area. It is excellent at a personal level, and aggregate it nationally so to have the Bill before us but we should see that better figures are available. This would proper resources given to coroners to carry out provide more information from a socio-demo- the functions given to them under this legislation. graphic point of view, which could be used to plan The post mortem process needs to be subject to proper prevention programmes. The type of sys- serious analysis. Senator Jim Walsh and Senator tematic data collection that is made possible by Ro´ na´n Mullen said there were significant delays this Bill would thus allow for a more uniform 319 Coroners Bill 2007: 4 October 2007. Second Stage 320

[Senator Frances Fitzgerald.] terrible time for people who are going through it. approach to inquest hearings, which would be It is the loneliest thing in the world to get into extremely helpful. one’s car in Sligo and drive to Dublin to obtain a There are several questions which the Minister death certificate, particularly for people who are might consider and return to at a later stage. left with young children or mothers and fathers Does the Bill allow for the collection of psycho- who lose a son or daughter. It is a terrible time logical autopsy data, as suggested by the NSRF in people’s lives. scoping study, which could then be passed on and I ask the Minister to consider incorporating in aggregated at a national level? This would be the Bill a provision for support services, as men- extremely helpful. The question of increased sup- tioned by Senator Frances Fitzgerald, in order port for the bereaved is also mentioned in the that people who are going through this process Bill. Will the chief coroner, for example, have the will have an idea of what lies ahead on the morn- ability to select appropriately qualified staff to ing of the inquest. People who are not familiar undertake this sensitive task? Another issue the with a court setup are completely ignorant — Minister might consider is that the coroners cur- they do not even know who they will meet in the rently work to a criminal definition of suicide, court, and they are not familiar with the sur- which requires establishment beyond reasonable roundings or with the people who will be there. doubt. A more socially relevant civil law From that point of view, it would be helpful if approach would be the test of balance of prob- people who are going through this could have an abilities, which would allow more actual suicides idea of what is going on. In my own case, the to be recorded as such. Would the power of the coroner concerned had a word with me a couple chief coroner under section 14 allow him or her to of weeks before the inquest and told me what was make such a submission to the relevant Minister? going to happen. I was lucky in that my case was There are a number of ways in which, either by dealt with quickly, simply because there were not amendment to the legislation or perhaps a guide many other cases, but in this day and age there to practice, a useful contribution could be made are many more cases because of the society in in the area of suicide prevention. which we live. It is part and parcel of what we Section 9 contains the phrase “contribute to the have to go through. A process should be intro- enhancement of public health and safety”. Would duced by which people in this predicament can the Minister consider an amendment along the obtain support and information on what is hap- lines of, “by facilitating the use of information pening. I did not know there would be a jury, and obtained in inquests for the purpose of a national I did not know that anyone from the Live Regis- inquiry into suicide deaths and other deaths lead- ter could serve on a jury. There is a panel, but if ing to a coroner’s inquest”? Such an addition they cannot fill the jury from the panel, they go would be helpful at that point. In addition, the out on the street and bring in people. It would Minister might consider amending section 48 so have been helpful for me to know this. It is worth that an inquiry is allowed if it would be helpful at bearing in mind this sort of thing. an individual level for the next of kin or, at a more general level, for public health and safety. Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform This would also present an opportunity to collect (Deputy Brian Lenihan): I thank Senators on all useful data and it would be helpful if the criteria sides of the House for the broad welcome they to allow coroners to do so were built into the gave this measure. Many good points were made, legislation. I ask the Minister to consider these and they can be made again on Committee Stage. issues when the Bill reaches Committee Stage. I propose to examine with care what the Senators have said between now and Committee Stage, Senator Geraldine Feeney: I was following the and investigate how the concerns of different debate in my office and I had not intended to Senators, although some of them were conflict- contribute, but there are a few points I would like ing, may be addressed. to make. I welcome the Minister to the House. In a sense, the whole thrust of this legislation As someone who was unfortunate enough to have is to address concerns such as those raised by had to attend the Coroner’s Court when my hus- Senator Geraldine Feeney. The Bill is designed band died a number of years ago, I have first- to provide more backup for coroners, as well as hand experience in this area. I wish to put on a modern code of legislation under which to record the excellent service of coroners all over operate. These are the two essential features of the country — those professional men and this legislation. Senator Eugene Regan brought women who, under very difficult circumstances, the debate off to a good start by welcoming the deal with people such as myself. Senator Paudie Bill and, like the good counsel he is, observed the Coffey mentioned the terrible delay in obtaining Second Stage convention. He did not dwell on the post mortems, and he is right. People must wait details of the Bill, but raised one pertinent point for the post mortem while they are torn apart echoed only by Senator Paudie Coffey, which is with grief. They are in another world, and sud- the matter of resourcing. Indicative figures of the denly they are caught up with all of this. It is a type of funding involved are given in the explana- 321 Coroners Bill 2007: 4 October 2007. Second Stage 322 tory memorandum, and I intend to engage in a element of public participation in the inquiry. detailed analysis, with my officials, of how we can Other common law jurisdictions such as New fund this operation. As always, it is not just about Zealand and Australia are not parties to the the allocation of resources, but also the efficient European Convention on Human Rights and are use of our public service resources. These issues freer to legislate in this area than we are. A case must be considered in the context of the imple- can be made for not having juries but a position mentation of this Bill. was arrived at in Strasbourg and I propose to As I do not intend to go through all the points respect it. raised, I hope Senators will forgive me if I do not Senator Ross referred to consultation with cor- touch on everything. Senator Jim Walsh men- oners. I am advised they have been in extensive tioned the appointment of coroners. It has been and on-going consultation with the Department traditional to appoint coroners from the medical on the shape and content of the Bill and that my or legal profession. However, the ideal coroner predecessor met with the Coroners Society of would be qualified in both. It has been the experi- Ireland on a number of occasions to discuss the ence of many practitioners that a coroner who has reform. I am open to discussions with them about a qualification in both of these areas is very well it and I have no difficulty with it. suited to the position. That said, we do not Senator Alex White commended the coroners require it because few people in the country have as did Senator McDonald, for which I thank both qualifications and of those who do, some them. In discussing legislative reform and improv- engage in extremely lucrative occupations. It is ing practices one may sound as though one does difficult to find someone who has both qualifi- not acknowledge the tremendous work done cations. In the case of a person with legal qualifi- under difficult circumstances by coroners. cations we should examine how the deficit on the Senator Alex White also raised a number of medical side can be made up and for a person other issues. One matter of substance and current with medical qualifications how the deficit on the controversy which he touched on is the issue of legal side can be made up. This is highly skilled the adjournment of a coroner’s inquest at the work and requires a professional qualification. instigation of a statutory body. A balance must The coroner will receive the support of the be struck and it is important that we get it right Garda Sı´ocha´na when required. At present, cor- in the Bill. It is important that statutory bodies oners are dependent in an informal way on the with inquiries to conduct can conduct them. It is services of the Garda Sı´ocha´na. One purpose of also important that in appropriate circumstance the Bill is to ensure that a coroner’s staff do the coroners can get on with their business. Senator work relating to the summonsing and notification Alex White summarised very well the need for of witnesses and jurors. this balance. I am prepared to examine the details Senator Walsh raised the issue of suicide which of the legislation on Committee Stage to see has always been a reportable death and will con- whether we can calibrate this balance correctly. tinue to be so. Senator Fitzgerald asked whether I have gone through most of the points of sub- we can structure this legislation to ensure infor- stance. Many points were made which would be mation about this topic is available to those valu- more appropriately addressed on Committee able research bodies which engage in social Stage. I propose to read the transcript of this research on this subject. I will consider it but I debate and revisit these issues. am not sure whether it requires a formal statutory setting. At a minimum we must ensure the legis- Question put and agreed to. lation does not inhibit such research and that such An Cathaoirleach: When is it proposed to take information can be made available. Committee Stage? Senator Mullen raised a number of points better addressed on Committee Stage. One point Senator Jim Walsh: On Wednesday, 10 both he and Senator de Bu´ rca raised was the October 2007. independence of coroners in the performance of their functions, which the Bill ensures and Senator Alex White: Is it really proposed to enshrines. We can review the Bill on Committee take Committee Stage of this Bill so soon? Stage if Senators are concerned this principle is not entrenched to a sufficient degree. It is my An Cathaoirleach: Committee Stage cannot be intention in tabling the Bill to ensure coroners taken before the date specified. have independence and there is no question of it being interfered with. Senator Alex White: I understand. On an associated subject, Senator de Bu´ rca asked why juries will be retained when the tend- Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 10 ency in many common law jurisdictions is to dis- October 2007. pense with the requirement for a jury. The Euro- pean Court of Human Rights insists that in An Cathaoirleach: When is it proposed to sit certain circumstances we should have this again? 323 Cancer Screening 4 October 2007. Programme 324

Senator Jim Walsh: At 2.30 p.m. on had difficulties assessing the results which came Wednesday, 10 October 2007. back. Will the Minister of State outline to the House Adjournment Matters. what action the Minister for Health and Children has taken on this matter? Are tests still sent ———— away? Have concerns been raised about the dif- ference in the way the tests are done in the Cancer Screening Programme. United States and the different criteria used for retesting and analysing the results? It could lead Senator Frances Fitzgerald: I thank the to misunderstandings and has the potential to put Cathaoirleach for the opportunity to raise this women’s lives at risk. important matter. Last week, Fine Gael used its Private Members’ time in the Seanad to debate Minister of State at the Department of Health health. We focused on the need to restore confi- and Children (Deputy Brendan Smith): I thank dence in cancer services. In a number of instances Senator Fitzgerald for raising this important patients were misdiagnosed, errors occurred in issue. I will reply on behalf of the Minister for mammograms and we had questionable treat- Health and Children, Deputy Harney, who is ment practices in some hospitals. unavoidably absent. A somewhat worrying situation was reported To address unacceptable delays in processing in the Irish Medical Times and elsewhere regard- smear tests, from January this year, the Health ing the accuracy of cervical smear tests. The Irish Service Executive outsourced the processing of Medical Times reported that a number of cervical more than 35,000 smear tests to a fully accredited smear tests which were sent to the United States United States laboratory. Quest Diagnostics Cor- by the HSE for analysis had to be sent back for review after staff at Cork University Hospital dis- poration in the US is College of Pathologists and covered at least two patients were at risk of cervi- clinical laboratory improvement amendment cal cancer. The smear test for one of these approved. This means that its laboratory facilities patients was previously diagnosed as negative. are inspected and accredited by the College of The HSE has had a business link with Quest Pathologists which is a deeming authority recog- Diagnostics in Texas since last January. I under- nised by the federal authorities to visit and stand this arose because laboratories in Ireland inspect every two years. It has stringent and could not deal in sufficient time with the volume detailed quality monitoring processes and is inter- of cases and tests sent for analysis. Women had nationally recognised. to wait a long time for results and the solution The HSE has informed the Department of was to go to Quest Diagnostics in Texas. What Health and Children that these tests were all pro- is the cost of this exercise? It was predicted that cessed and reported on by the end of June. The approximately 25,000 tests would be processed in HSE has confirmed that all laboratories are total. The contract signed by the HSE stated achieving a turnaround time of four to five weeks 2,000 slides at a time would be sent to Quest in the reporting of smear tests. In all laboratories, Diagnostics from Cork University Hospital, the before a result is issued, a rapid 60 second review Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland and St. of every negative and unsatisfactory smear is Luke’s Hospital in Dublin. This involves tests done as part of normal quality assurance from throughout the country. procedures. In principle one might argue there is nothing It is important to note that a smear test is not wrong with this until one realises the method of a diagnostic test. The limitations of cervical scre- rescreening slides in the United States differs sig- ening are such that there may be false negative nificantly from Irish methods. In the United and false positive results. It should also be noted States only 20% of negative cases are rescreened that more than 80% of smears taken are reported whereas the recommended procedure in Ireland negative or no abnormality detected, requiring no states all negative tests are rescreened. This follow up for the client. Since the introduction of means the HSE allowed the safeguards put in liquid-based cytology, the rate of unsatisfactory place to maximise the accuracy of results and reports has dropped on average from 10% to increase patient safety to be diluted in this busi- below 3%. All Irish public laboratories have con- ness deal. verted to liquid-based cytology with the excep- Through a freedom of information request the tion of Cork University Hospital where this pro- Irish Medical Times established that problems cess is under way. Medial laboratory scientists with translating the results sent back to the sign out negative smears and pathologists sign out United States also arose earlier in the year. This all the abnormal cases. was due to the difference in testing and reporting The roll-out of a national cervical screening methods in the United States and Ireland, a programme is the most efficient population matter I raised some months ago. If we send tests approach to preventing and controlling cervical away we must be careful to ensure the method- cancer. The Minister allocated additional revenue ologies used are the same. General practitioners funding of \5 million to the national cancer scre- 325 Parking 4 October 2007. Regulations 326 ening service this year for the roll-out of the Irish form part of the commute, it is clear he wanted cervical screening programme, and an additional that policy implemented and fares kept down. 30 posts have been approved. The programme It is unclear whether car parking charges lie will commence national roll-out in January 2008. outside the remit of the Minister and if they form The national cancer screening service plans to part of the fare regulation regime. I seek clarifica- have cervical screening managed as a national tion whether car park charges form part of the call-recall programme via effective governance fare-setting process. If they are not regulated, structures that provide overall leadership and there is nothing to stop Iarnro´ dE´ ireann increas- direction in terms of quality assurance, account- ing car parking charges in December by 10% or ability and value for money. All elements of the 20% at railway stations such as Stamullen, programme — call-recall, smear taking, labora- Mallow or Ennis. What I seek is a statement from tories, colposcopy and treatment services — will the Minister on car parking charges. Are they be quality assured, organised and managed to part of the fare regulation regime and, if not, does deliver a single integrated national service. he intend to make them part of that regime to Roll-out of the programme will be based on a keep the cost of commuting down and encourage turnaround time of four weeks for programme the use of public transport? smears. The service is developing new contractual arrangements for tests in 2008 which will include Deputy Brendan Smith: I thank Senator service level agreements to achieve this objective. Hannigan for raising this issue. I am replying on It has the Minister’s support in this regard. behalf of the Minister for Transport, Deputy Noel Dempsey, who is unavoidably absent. Parking Regulations. The provision and management of car parks is a day-to-day operational matter for Iarnro´ d Senator Dominic Hannigan: I thank you, a ´ Chathaoirligh, for leave to speak on this issue. It Eireann. I can see no value in introducing a new came to light in recent weeks when the imposition layer of regulation providing for ministerial con- of a car parking charge at railway stations led to trol in this area. New facilities are being provided an increase in the cost of commuting by 40% for to public transport customers at a very reasonable some train users. Last week, the cost of commut- price in line with the Dublin Transportation ing at Stamullen, County Meath, increased by Office guidelines. \250 per year owing to the imposition of a car The modest charges recently introduced are parking charge at that rail station. Similar charges significantly lower than that charged by local are being introduced across the country. Charges authorities for on-street parking, for parking at have recently been introduced in Mallow and local authority and private facilities adjacent to Ennis and one is imminent in Arklow. I accept rail stations or the fee for Luas commuters, which these car parks have recently been upgraded, paid is \4 per day. for in part by a subsidy of \150 million to Iarnro´ d It must be borne in mind that in many instances E´ ireann. My question is not about the concept of where parking is free, it is abused. People who car parking charges per se but about the unregu- are not rail users are taking up spaces at railway lated and arbitrary way in which car park charges stations to avoid paying parking fees imposed by can be announced on a Friday, introduced on a local authorities and-or private operators. This Monday and increased a few short months later. gives rise to rail commuters having to park in resi- Stamullen is a new commuter village which has dential areas some distance from rail stations, little employment. Therefore, people’s focus is on causing a nuisance for residents. It can also dis- travelling to and from Dublin every day. For courage people from using trains because they those who want to use the train, driving to the cannot park in a safe, secure car park at the coastal station of Gormanstown, two miles away, station. is part of the commute. It is not just about getting Where these new improved services are the train. It is about getting the car, parking the opened, a minimal charge has been introduced of car and boarding the train. \2 per day or \5 per week to cover operational Last December, the then Minister for Trans- and security costs, to discourage non-rail users port, Deputy Cullen, was asked to provide a 10% from taking spaces and to reserve spaces for those increase in CIE fares. He virtually laughed the who must use a car to access the station. The company out of the office and granted an increase charges are in line with the guiding principles for of 2.75%. At the time, his Department said that the implementation of rail-based park and ride in reaching his decision, the Minister said he developed by the Dublin Transportation Office. wanted to encourage and support passengers who These provide, inter alia, that rail users only choose public transport as their commuting should use park and ride spaces and may have to option. Clearly his policy was to try to encourage pay to use them. Rail fares generally should not the use of public transport at a reasonable cost. be increased to pay for park and ride. Those who Given that the cost of driving to the railway benefit from park and ride should contribute to station and car parking charges at the station the cost of it. 327 Rail 4 October 2007. Network 328

[Deputy Brendan Smith.] decisions about the taxpayers’ money, and As part of its upgrade of the railway system, second, transparency — we need to be clear how Iarnro´ dE´ ireann has embarked, with Exchequer the money is being spent and the purposes for support, on a major programme of upgrading its which it is being spent. park and ride facilities to benefit its customers. The history of metro north is very clear. The Park and ride facilities can and do have a positive need for such a project was identified in 1992. It impact on public transport use and have an then became part of the Transport 21 initiative important role to play in encouraging people to in 2005 with its funding identified in the current transfer from private cars to public transport. national development plan. The total funding In considering whether to impose charges for provided in that plan for public transport is the use of park and ride facilities, providers are approximately \12.6 billion, which leads me on to expected to take into account a variety of actors, the cost of the metro project. The last time such and these would include consideration of the figures were made clearly and proactively avail- likely impact of charges on use of the facility and, able by the Government was in 2002 when the by extension, on public transport use. Where then Minister for Transport, Deputy Brennan, Iarnro´ dE´ ireann has provided new parking and identified the cost at approximately \1.2 billion. introduced modest charges for it, there has been Since then, successive Ministers have refused to no reduction in usage. confirm or deny such a figure. It was only earlier this year that a freedom of information request Senator Dominic Hannigan: I thank the Mini- seemed inadvertently to obtain a figure of \4.6 ster of State and appreciate he is responding on billion. If this figure is correct it would make the behalf of the Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey. metro north project the largest single project ever The issue was not specifically about the concept undertaken in the history of the State. As such of charging for parking but how we can ensure the degree of debate and scrutiny on it needs to that the car parking charges are regulated and do be heightened. not increase year by year. Will the Minister of The second relevant piece of information on State ask the Minister to consider including car the matter came from the former Minister for parking charges in his remit to control fare levels Transport, Deputy Cullen, recently, when he within inflation levels? identified that he expected 34 million passengers to use the metro every year and for approxi- Deputy Brendan Smith: From reading the mately 41,000 cars to be taken off the road. In script, I understand that the provision and man- placing the motion before the House I have sim- agement of car parks is a day-to-day operational ply joined those pieces together to raise a number ´ matter for Iarnro´ dEireann. Surely Iarnro´ d of points in need of response from the Govern- ´ Eireann, which has the remit of maximising the ment. If the \4.6 billion figure is correct — the usage of public transport, should not put a deter- Government has neither confirmed nor denied it rent in the way of customers coming to access — the cost per taxpayer will be at least \22 per its service. trip based on work I have had done indepen- dently. If that is correct the cost will be more than Senator Dominic Hannigan: That is not always five times the equivalent trip on the Luas. That the case. point needs to be discussed and teased out. The passenger figures released by the Govern- Deputy Brendan Smith: I hope the business ment of 34 million trips per year indicate a degree concepts will gel and meet together and that of success that are multiples of what similar pro- maximum use will be made of the public trans- jects enjoy in other countries. If the figure was port facility which has been provided at great cost correct and the figure of the Minister, Deputy by taxpayers. There has been a major upgrade of Cullen, of 41,000 cars being taken off the road by the rail system in recent years. I understand it is the metro was correct, it would mean that 42% a day-to-day matter for Iarnro´ dE´ ireann. We all of car trips in the vicinity of the metro will go into want to reduce the layers of bureaucracy and the metro. If that is true, the nearest figure we administration rather than adding to them. have for other metro projects in Europe are for However, I will take the issue raised by the Madrid, which estimated 22% and Sheffield, Senator back to the Minister, Deputy Dempsey. which estimated a similar project at 21%. Many other projects across the UK have a displacement Senator Dominic Hannigan: I appreciate that. rate of approximately 12% to 13%. The assump- tion we have on the numbers of passengers who Rail Network. will use the metro are at least twice the best per- Senator : My motion relates formance of a similar project elsewhere. to the metro north project. Before addressing the All those points lead to three simple questions point, I stress the principles I seek to have addressed in the motion and on which I would addressed, which are first, accountability — we appreciate a response. These are all policy issues need to know who is responsible for major and not operational matters for the RPA. Can 329 Rail 4 October 2007. Network 330 the Minister of State confirm that the cost of \4.6 It will provide park and ride sites at key billion is correct? If that cost is correct this will locations along the route. This means metro be the biggest project the country has ever under- north will benefit people from far beyond its taken. Taxpayers and Members of the Oireachtas immediate catchment area. There is a clear are entitled to know that figure. Can the Minister decision-making process laid out for major pro- of State confirm whether a cost-benefit analysis jects like metro north. All of these projects must of the project has been completed and whether comply with the Minister for Finance’s capital the Government will make it available to public appraisal and public private partnership guide- and Oireachtas scrutiny before a planning appli- lines. This has been done in the case of metro cation is lodged by An Bord Pleana´la by the end north. A statutory railway order process is then of the year? Can the Minister of State give a com- followed so that the relevant powers to build mitment on behalf of the Government that as the these projects can be obtained from An Bord project really heats up the RPA’s commitment to Pleana´la. Work is now well under way by the working with the local community and sharing Railway Procurement Agency on the preparation relevant information in a timely fashion will be of an environmental impact statement and the deepened. The local community in the area where documentation required to support an application the metro will be located is concerned about to An Bord Pleana´la for a railway order. There many aspects of the project and want these will be a full opportunity for people to object or matters addressed. offer views and there will be a public hearing to I am looking for a response on these policy air all the relevant issues. It will be entirely a issues as to how taxpayers’ money will be spent matter for An Bord Pleana´la to decide whether on the largest project we have ever undertaken. to grant a railway order. Metro north must also follow a rigorous EU- Deputy Brendan Smith: I will respond on mandated public procurement process. Only behalf of the Minister for Transport and the when this process is complete will we be aware of Marine, Deputy Dempsey, who is unavoidably the full and final likely cost of the project. It is absent. Metro north is a core part of the invest- also important that the State’s capacity to obtain ment strategy set out in Transport 21 to provide full value for money from a competitive procure- a modern, high quality and high capacity public ment process is not prejudiced by setting out in transport system to address the transport needs advance what we may be prepared to pay for of the greater Dublin area. It is a critical project such infrastructure. not only in meeting existing transport needs but Last month the Railway Procurement Agency in providing the transport infrastructure required announced the outcome of the first stage of the to provide for future growth. Current projections procurement process for metro north which are that the population in the Fingal area is set involved the selection of those candidates who to double in the next 20 years and the absence of have been pre-qualified for the tender stage of the high capacity transport infrastructure pro- the project. In all, 14 candidates have passed the vided by metro north would represent acceptance pre-qualifying stage — four infrastructure pro- of rapidly increasing congestion and deterioration viders, five rolling stock providers and five oper- in the Dublin area as a place in which to do busi- ators. Qualified candidates have until 2 ness and live. November to form bidding groups. When the out- Metro north will provide a rapid, high-capacity, come of the statutory approval and public pro- high-frequency link between Dublin city centre curement processes are known the final business and Swords via Dublin Airport. Initially, an esti- case for the projects will be submitted to Govern- mated 34 million passengers a year will travel on ment for decision. The Government will judge all this service, with trains every four minutes and the factors — cost, economic evaluation results, the estimated journey time from the city centre land use and transport rationale when making to Dublin airport will be less than 20 minutes. It its decision. The Government will publish full information will address a major deficit in public transport on the business case for these projects and the infrastructure in north Dublin by providing a factors taken into account in making decisions on high-capacity rail-based connection from the cen- them in due course. This will be done tral Fingal area to the city centre. It will signifi- 2 o’clock when there is no danger that it will cantly enhance transport access to locations such have a negative impact on the State’s as Dublin Airport, Mater Hospital and DCU and ability to get best value for money through the play a key role in the provision of an integrated public procurement process. The basis for the rail-based public transport network through inter- Government decision will be transparent but it changes with Luas at St. Stephen’s Green and will be handled in such a way as to avoid com- with suburban rail at Drumcondra and St. promising the State’s commercial interests and, Stephen’s Green. Metro north, together with the by extension, the interests of all taxpayers. There- Luas green line, also provides a new north-south fore, while I am confident Transport 21 includes spine to the rail infrastructure in Dublin, with a an appropriate budget provision for the imple- much wider catchment area than the DART. mentation of metro north, I cannot release details 331 The 4 October 2007. Adjournment 332

[Deputy Brendan Smith.] now to ensure the correct criteria are laid down of the cost or other commercially sensitive for those who will tender for the project. Ways material relating to the project. To do so at this must be found to ensure the Oireachtas and the stage would impact on the procurement process public are informed regarding the cost of major and potentially prejudice the State’s capacity to projects that will be paid for by many generations derive maximum value for money from such a to come without commercial interests being competitive procurement process. infringed. I would appreciate it if the Minister of I thank the Senator for raising this issue. State conveyed to the Minister for Transport and the Marine my desire that the RPA work as col- Senator Paschal Donohoe: I appreciate the laboratively and transparently as possible with Minister of State’s response. My party and I are the surrounding communities because that is deeply committed to the concept of superb public badly needed. transport and we recognise the role of the metro in this regard. The Minister of State said the An Cathaoirleach: I thank the Minister for detailed business case process will commence fol- attending. lowing the completion of the planning process when the outcome of the An Bord Pleana´la appli- The Seanad adjourned at 2 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. cation will be known. That work should be done on Wednesday, 10 October 2007.