Vol. 765 Thursday No. 59 29 October 2015

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Introductions: Lord Lupton and Baroness Redfern...... 1273 Questions Yemen...... 1273 UN: Global Goals ...... 1276 Cold Calls...... 1278 Draft Wales Bill ...... 1280 Business of the House Timings of Debates ...... 1283 Global Climate Change Motion to Take Note ...... 1283 Syrian Refugees Question for Short Debate ...... 1322 Prisons: Young People Motion to Take Note ...... 1338 Advertising Standards Authority Question for Short Debate ...... 1376

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The first time a Member speaks to a new piece of parliamentary business, the following abbreviations are used to show their party affiliation: Abbreviation Party/Group CB Cross Bench Con Conservative DUP Democratic Unionist Party GP Green Party Ind Lab Independent Labour Ind LD Independent Liberal Democrat Ind SD Independent Social Democrat Ind UU Independent Ulster Unionist Lab Labour LD Liberal Democrat LD Ind Liberal Democrat Independent Non-afl Non-affiliated PC Plaid Cymru UKIP UK Independence Party UUP Ulster Unionist Party

No party affiliation is given for Members serving the House in a formal capacity, the Lords spiritual, Members on leave of absence or Members who are otherwise disqualified from sitting in the House. © Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2015, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 1273 Introductions[29 OCTOBER 2015] Yemen 1274

The Earl of Courtown: My Lords, the noble Lord is House of Lords right: the situation there at the moment is dreadful. In July it was declared a level 3 emergency, which is Thursday, 29 October 2015. reserved for the worst humanitarian crises—shared only, I am afraid, by Syria, Iraq and South Sudan. As 11 am the noble Lord said, the intensified conflict has now displaced nearly 2.3 million people. He asked whether Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Portsmouth. there is anything that we can do during our presidency of the Security Council. I will pass on his question to Introduction: Lord Lupton my colleagues in the department, but I can say that UN special envoy Ismail Ould Cheikh Ahmed briefed 11.08 am the Security Council in open session on Friday on his plans for further political negotiation. That is something James Roger Crompton Lupton, Esquire, CBE, having that we are very pleased about. been created Lord Lupton, of Lovington in the County of Hampshire, was introduced and made the solemn Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab): My Lords, does affirmation, supported by Baroness Kennedy of The the noble Lord agree that there is a real danger of Shaws and Lord Rose of Monewden, and signed an misreading the situation in Yemen by focusing on the undertaking to abide by the Code of Conduct. Shia-Sunni divide or on the Saudi-Emirati opposition to Iran and failing to appreciate the fundamental importance of clan and tribal loyalties? Does he also Introduction: Baroness Redfern agree that we have a major interest in preventing yet another failed state in the region sending waves of 11.13 am migrants to Europe, adding to the 1 million who have come to our shores over the past year? Elizabeth Marie Redfern, having been created Baroness Redfern, of the Isle of Axholme in the County of The Earl of Courtown: The noble Lord makes a Lincolnshire, was introduced and took the oath, supported very good point relating to the tribal issues in Yemen by Lord Taylor of Holbeach and Baroness Eaton, and that make it increasingly difficult, and always have signed an undertaking to abide by the Code of Conduct. made it very difficult, to manage. As far as migration is concerned, it is very difficult to compare different areas, and of course this is very different from, for Yemen example, Syria. However, we will keep a very close Question watch on what is happening there.

11.18 am Baroness Warsi (Con): My Lords, what is the Asked by Lord Avebury Government’s assessment of the comments made yesterday by the Saudi Foreign Minister, Adel al-Jubeir, To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions who said that the military campaign is now nearing its they have had with the Saudi-led coalition in Yemen end? on restoring peace in that country. The Earl of Courtown: My Lords, at last night’s The Earl of Courtown (Con): My Lords, the United press conference in Riyadh, held jointly with my right Kingdom Government are in regular contact with the honourable friend the Foreign Secretary, the continuing Saudi authorities, including through our embassy in situation in Yemen was discussed. As my noble friend Riyadh and our Yemen office based in Jeddah. The says, it is the case that the military campaign is coming Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth to a close as the coalition forces have established a Affairs visited Saudi Arabia earlier this week and dominant military position in the country. We now underlined the importance that the United Kingdom focus on the agreed shared analysis of the need for attaches to finding a political solution to the current accelerating the political process. crisis as soon as possible. He also reinforced the necessity of full compliance with international humanitarian Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead (Lab): My Lords, law and of facilitating access for humanitarian and will the Minister tell the House exactly why the UK commercial shipping. Government continue to license arms to the Saudi-led coalition that is bombing Yemen? As we have heard, Lord Avebury (LD): My Lords, the Yemen operation more than 5,000 civilians have been killed. Can the has left 5,000 dead, 26,000 injured, 2.3 million internally Minister give us proof that no British exported weapons, displaced and 21 million in need of humanitarian including British-made military planes, are being used assistance. If we agree with the Brookings Institution to commit violations of humanitarian law? that al-Qaeda is the principal local winner of this war and with Human Rights Watch that Saudi attacks on The Earl of Courtown: My Lords, the noble Baroness, IDPs and humanitarian aid are violations of the laws with her great knowledge of this area, asks some of war, will the Government use our presidency of the questions to which I am afraid I do not know the Security Council in November to promote a truce and answer. Munitions are supplied to the Saudi air force, to call for the withdrawal of all foreign forces in and the UK operates one of the most rigorous and Yemen? transparent export control regimes in the world. 1275 Yemen[LORDS] UN: Global Goals 1276

Lord Green of Deddington (CB): My Lords, I welcome human rights situation in Yemen. There was recently the Question from the noble Lord, Lord Avebury. As an agreement on a single text in the Human Rights it happens, Yemen was my first post and Saudi Arabia Council to call for consensual resolution of the position was my last. I suggest to the Minister that we should in Yemen. focus our efforts on the humanitarian aspects here, partly for the reasons given by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson. It is a hugely complex situation, internally UN: Global Goals in Yemen and externally in the regional powers. The Question best thing that we can do is to increase our aid to those many millions who are suffering dreadfully. 11.27 am The Earl of Courtown: The noble Lord, Lord Green, Asked by Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale is quite right, in so far as we have to focus the aid so that it gets to the people who need it. However, as the To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they noble Lord is also aware, the logistics of getting it will publish their plans to deliver the global goals there are proving very difficult. for sustainable development agreed by the UN in September 2015. Lord Ahmed (Non-Afl): My Lords, is the Minister aware that, according to the BBC, war crimes have The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department been committed, probably by both sides, by targeting for International Development (Baroness Verma) (Con): civilians and world heritage sites, and that on Tuesday, My Lords, DfID will champion the SDGs internationally, a hospital was bombed as well? Will Her Majesty’s encouraging the implementation of the framework in Government support an international investigation its entirety. DfID’s existing portfolio is highly relevant into these deliberate attacks on civilians? and we will support the countries that we work in to implement the SDGs, using our commitment to 0.7% The Earl of Courtown: My Lords, as the noble Lord as a strong foundation. Our strategic objectives will be said, issues relating to activities on both sides are finalised after the spending and strategic defence and causing great concern—whether it is the bombing of a security reviews, alongside the bilateral aid, multilateral hospital, the use of child soldiers or the use of schools aid and civil society reviews, which will provide an and hospitals for military purposes. But the noble opportunity to refine our approach. Lord will also be aware that any judgment on whether specific international crimes have occurred is a matter for international judicial decision rather than for Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale (Lab): My Lords, Governments and non-judicial bodies. the goals are indeed ambitious, which is welcome. As far as the Médecins Sans Frontières hospital is Particularly important is goal 16, which reflects the concerned, which I think is what the noble Lord was importance of peace and justice if we are to truly leave referring to, we are aware of the alleged air strike by no one behind. That is a welcome addition to the old the Saudi-led coalition and we await further news on millennium development goals. Do the Government that. intend to ensure that the objectives of goal 16 are reflected in the new national security strategy and in Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD): My Lords, we must those other plans that the Minister referred to so that admit that the British record in controlling Aden was it reflects not just the work of the Department for not particularly wonderful and that Yemen has never International Development but that of the Government been an entirely coherent state. Britain now prides as a whole? itself on the closeness of its links with Saudi Arabia and the GCC coalition that is intervening. Can we be Baroness Verma: My Lords, the noble Lord raises a assured that conversations with the Saudis on what is really important point. But we will not be able to put happening in Yemen are close and confidential and the plans into action until we have the indicators. I have not been adversely affected by the recent letter know that the noble Lord is very interested in this from the Saudi ambassador in London? area, so he will be aware that they are not expected to be finalised until March or April next year. We look The Earl of Courtown: My Lords, we continue at all forward to working closely together on this issue because times, as the noble Lord is aware, to have talks at the I absolutely agree with the noble Lord that goal 16 is highest level on all these issues. equally as important as the other millennium development goals to ensuring that we deliver good governance and Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab): My Lords, in view justice to the poorest in the world. of the reports of violations of serious international human rights law committed by parties in Yemen, does the Minister support the establishment of an Baroness Northover (LD): My Lords, of course the international commission of inquiry to investigate SDGs apply to all countries in the world, including these allegations? our own. Does the Minister remember that when we were both Ministers in the Government Equalities The Earl of Courtown: My Lords, the UN Human Office how difficult it was to persuade the Treasury to Rights Council, which I think the noble Lord was work out the impact of policies by gender? Have her referring to, has no mandate to call for IHL investigations. colleagues managed to persuade the Treasury that Resolutions contain mechanisms for monitoring the they must now do this? 1277 UN: Global Goals[29 OCTOBER 2015] Cold Calls 1278

Baroness Verma: My Lords, the noble Baroness and incredibly hard to ensure that we are implementing the I worked very closely on these issues. I can assure her goals and helping others to develop their plans for that both domestically and internationally, this is cross- putting women and girls at the heart of all programmes. government and will be led by the Cabinet Office. All departments will ensure that, as we have shown, they are implementing many of the goals and targets that Cold Calls are within the 17 SDG goals. Question Lord Crisp (CB): My Lords, can the Minister say something about UK plans for supporting countries 11.33 am in delivering universal health coverage, and in particular Asked by Lord Sharkey whether those plans will take account of the UK’s enormous strengths in health systems, especially the To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action is professional education and training of health workers, being taken to reduce the number of cold calls which is done both in this country and abroad? made to households.

Baroness Verma: The noble Lord is absolutely right, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department and we are really pleased to see that one goal is for Business, Innovation and Skills and Department for focused on health outcomes. In its important pledge, it Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Neville-Rolfe) (Con): encompasses the principle of leaving no one behind. My Lords, we have already increased the level of monetary The noble Lord has brought in the need to ensure that penalties that regulators can issue and have made it all the goals have been agreed universally for that easier for the Information Commissioner’s Office to outcome. We are making sure that every country is take enforcement action. We are currently running a signed up to strategically developing health outcomes £1.5 million competition fund to encourage the development that are beneficial, particularly for the poorest and the of more innovative, safe and cost-effective technology least accessible in the world. to block unwanted calls, and we will consult shortly on calling line identification, a subject close to my heart. Lord Hughes of Woodside (Lab): My Lords, is it not the case that sadly the millennium development achievements generally fell far short of the targets? Is Lord Sharkey (LD): Many cold calls are from she aware that if the sustainable developments goals companies that sell leads to debt management companies. are to be achieved, that urgently needs a great deal The FCA said in June that debt management firms are more money and commitment than has hitherto been still failing Britain’s most vulnerable consumers, and the case? last November the FCA wrote to the Minister saying that the rules on cold calling in consumer credit needed Baroness Verma: My Lords, I think I disagree with review. It is a year on, and there is no review. Every the noble Lord that the millennium development goals day of delay means that more and more people are fell short. They focused minds in countries around the exposed to faulty debt management advice. But the world and we did see at least half of the world’s real puzzle is this: cold calling for mortgages is banned, children who were not going to primary school now so why is it not banned for debt management? attending. We have seen malaria deaths halved globally and we have seen numbers of those living in extreme Baroness Neville-Rolfe: The noble Lord makes a poverty more than halved. The SDGs allow us to good point and the FCA has committed to undertake focus on the fact that this is a universal agreement; a proper review of its rules on unsolicited marketing 193 countries have come together, and with them civil calls, emails and text messages from consumer credit society organisations and business. This is something firms. As he says, that will include debt management for which we all have ambitions to develop and achieve, firms and so-called lead generators, which are basically so I think that this is a game changer for the world. We data brokers. It will take place early next year. It is should celebrate what has been achieved and build on delayed but we have already suggested that the FCA that to make sure that, going forward, we really do might meet the noble Lord to discuss his concerns and eradicate extreme poverty. That is incredibly important. ensure that they are fast-tracked. Baroness Hodgson of Abinger (Con): My Lords, given DfID’s focus on women and girls, I am sure that Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab): My Lords, I refer to Her Majesty’s Government particularly welcome goal 5. my interests in the register and, in particular, my role Will Her Majesty’s Government be lobbying to ensure chairing National Trading Standards. The noble Baroness that the right indicators are in the goal when they are will be aware of the work done by the NTS Scams ready so that no one is left behind? I mention especially Team which looks at repeat victims—usually elderly widows and disabled women, along with indigenous people who are on “suckers lists” which are circulated women, who suffer so much in developing countries? between different companies. Can the noble Baroness tell me what she thinks should happen to reduce the Baroness Verma: My noble friend is right to highlight incidence, for example, of people calling pretending to goal 5. But all the goals are important and that is why be from the Telephone Preference Service, saying that we will be pushing for them to be implemented in their there is now a charge for this service and then trying to entirety. As I said earlier, we in this country are to be extract money from the victims? As those vulnerable congratulated because we have already been working people are then often referred by trading standards to 1279 Cold Calls[LORDS] Draft Wales Bill 1280

[LORD HARRIS OF HARINGEY] Baroness about her particular example. We need a other local authority departments for support and simple and effective regulatory regime that can be care, will that support and care continue to be available understood by the consumers affected, as well as those given the level of cuts now in local authority budgets? regulated.

Baroness Neville-Rolfe: My Lords, there are several Lord Clarke of Hampstead (Lab): My Lords, previous questions which I look forward to discussing with the questions have mentioned the vulnerable people who noble Lord, but fraudulent and scam activities are a receive these calls, which cause them a great deal of crime and should be constantly reported to Action distress and worry. What are the Government doing to Fraud. I have a feeling that consumer representatives draw attention to the dangers of these calls—perhaps and the Government are very much on the same side with advertising on television or announcements on here, and I look forward to taking on these issues. radio that explain how to deal with them? For most of us that may be quite simple, but a lot of people who Lord Geddes (Con): My Lords, who pays for the get these calls have no idea what is going on. They plethora of calls, which I am sure we have all had, should be given better advice, by either leaflets or regarding PPI mis-sold insurance? some other form of advertising. Baroness Neville-Rolfe: The noble Lord is right. We Baroness Neville-Rolfe: My Lords, I am not sure need better communication with consumers, to explain who pays for them but by registering to the Telephone not only about the Telephone Preference Service but Preference Service it is possible to get oneself off the also that, once you have told someone not to call list, in relation to both mobile and home phones. again, they are committing an offence if they do so. As Which? has done great work in this area and is about part of our work with the Which?-led group, we have to do a marketing campaign to bring this to the been thinking about how to move that forward. consumer’s attention. Consumers have to be involved as well as regulators to draw attention to the fact that they are being targeted. I get calls as well. Draft Wales Bill Question Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab): My Lords, I was rather surprised to learn from the Evening Standard 11.41 am last night that the Minister knows not a lot about Asked by Baroness Gale nuisance calls. I do not believe it. The one in 10 people who gets up to 20 a month certainly knows about To ask Her Majesty’s Government to what extent nuisance calls. Will the Minister explain why the the draft Wales Bill secures powers for the National amendment that we got through to the Consumer Assembly for Wales. Rights Act about caller identification has not yet been brought forward? Does she agree that our other proposals, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department such as automated reporting of nuisance calls or call- of Energy and Climate Change and Wales Office (Lord blocking equipment, should have been added? Maybe Bourne of Aberystwyth): My Lords, the draft Wales we should add them now. Bill will deliver a stronger Wales in a strong United Kingdom. The new reserve powers model will provide a clear devolution boundary between what is reserved Baroness Neville-Rolfe: My Lords, modern Ministers and what is devolved. The draft Bill also strengthens take the bus. As I have already said, we are about to Welsh devolution by devolving important new powers consult on call identification. I think that the noble over energy, transport, local government and Assembly Baroness and I both felt that that was very important. elections. We are on the case. Baroness Gale (Lab): I thank the Minister for his Baroness Hussein-Ece (LD): The Minister suggested reply. However, I am sure he is aware of the concerns that the Telephone Preference Service was the answer. in Wales about the draft Wales Bill. Will the Minister In my experience with my elderly mother, I have tried agree to meet Welsh Government Ministers to listen to very hard to stop these nuisance calls, which cause their views on the draft Bill? They suggest that the huge distress. I spoke to BT and it suggested the current Assembly powers will introduce an effective service. You have to give a range of numbers that you Westminster ministerial veto over Welsh laws. Surely allow to come in and everything else will be blocked, he is aware of that concern. I know that the draft Bill but clearly that is not acceptable if you are expecting is going through the Commons at the moment, but phone calls from a care service or a hospital. It is not will he meet Ministers in Wales to discuss these difficulties? practicable so I ask the Minister to come back with a more sensible and practical answer to this terrible Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: My Lords, the noble problem. Baroness is quite right: the Bill is still in draft form. It will undergo pre-legislative scrutiny and be introduced Baroness Neville-Rolfe: I agree with the noble Baroness. into the Commons early next year. Discussions are There are several different things happening here; one going on about the Bill almost as we speak—the has to look at the complexities in order to get things Secretary of State is in Cardiff today, for example. As done. We put £3.5 million aside in the Budget for I understand it, constructive discussions are going on vulnerable people. I would like to talk to the noble between officials and Ministers. 1281 Draft Wales Bill[29 OCTOBER 2015] Draft Wales Bill 1282

Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD): The Constitutional something in Wales in a devolved area, we would need Reform Act 2005 requires the Supreme Court selection the consent of Wales. That is not unreasonable. committee to, Discussions are ongoing; this is in only draft form. “ensure that between them the judges will have knowledge of, and experience of practice in, the law of each part of the United Baroness Randerson (LD): My Lords, the issue of Kingdom”. Crown consent has already proved very controversial. Of the 12 Supreme Court Justices, two are Scottish The Schedule to the draft Bill reveals how complex the and one is Northern Irish. The Lord Chief Justice—the current settlement has been from the start. Does the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, Minister agree that there is a strong case for simplifying with whom I am occasionally confused—stands in Welsh devolution, and in the process allowing some from time to time. Will the Minister undertake to additional powers for the Assembly beyond those amend the draft Wales Bill to ensure that one seat will already specified in the Bill, which are very welcome? always be reserved for a Justice with experience of the practice of the law in Wales and, since the laws are Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: My Lords, the noble passed by the Welsh Assembly in two languages, Baroness has great experience and has done a tremendous knowledge of the Welsh language? Such a judge could amount in relation to this Bill. I recognise that and pay act as a mediator in any dispute between the Welsh tribute to her. If there is one thing I have learned over Government and the UK Government as to legislative the last generation, it is this: Welsh devolution is not competence. simple.

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: My Lords, that almost Lord Kinnock (Lab): Does the Minister agree that sounded like a job application. I know that the noble the paradoxes and concerns highlighted again this Lord is very proficient in the law and in Welsh. At the morning in Questions and Answers in this House moment, it is done on an informal basis, but the noble demonstrate the absolutely compelling need in Wales, Lord has a serious point, which no doubt will be taken England, Scotland and Northern Ireland for a forward as the draft Bill proceeds. comprehensive constitutional convention, as requested on this side of the House and that side, and, indeed, by Lord Elis-Thomas (PC): My Lords, this is not a job all thinking people, in which number I would like to application, as the Minister knows. Is he aware that include him? the National Assembly for Wales’s constitutional and legislative affairs committee will continue to adopt Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: I am grateful to the subsidiarity, clarity, simplicity and workability as the noble Lord for the compliment. It is true that there is a scrutiny tests for this Bill? Will Her Majesty’s Government great danger that we do things piecemeal and do not listen to the committee’s reports, as the First Minister look at the whole. That is a point well made. Obviously of Wales has done? in relation to this Bill we are looking at the position in Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: The noble Lord is Scotland, Northern Ireland and, indeed, England as quite right about the role of that committee of the we proceed to try to take account of that. The noble National Assembly for Wales. It does very good work Lord makes a powerful point: at some stage we will and of course it will be listened to. As I understand it, have to ensure that all these pieces of the jigsaw fit well the Secretary of State will be giving evidence to the together. committee to discuss the Bill. I emphasise that the Bill is in draft form at the moment. Lord Morgan (Lab): My Lords, there are many good things in the draft Wales Bill that will be widely Baroness Morgan of Ely (Lab): My Lords, the welcomed, but is not the problem that the St David’s Welsh Government suggest that only five of the 19 Welsh Day declaration earlier in the year aroused expectations Government Bills that are now Acts could have proceeded and stated that reserved powers would be transferred to Royal Assent had the new draft Bill’s provision been en bloc to the Welsh Assembly? Hitherto, the draft in place, either because they would now be outside the Wales Bill does not appear to ensure that. Should we limits of the Assembly’s power, or because new UK not clear this up to avoid a serious crisis? ministerial consent obligations would have had to be satisfied first. Does the Minister accept that, as the Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: My Lords, I greatly draft Bill stands, the newly proposed reserved powers respect the noble Lord’s work in this area. Even designing model of governance has been written in such a restrictive a reserved powers model is a complex issue, because way that it will curtail the Assembly’s current power something has to be on the other side of the line. It is and lead to an even greater potential for legal conflict important that we get it right, but that is why discussions between Westminster and Wales? are ongoing at official and ministerial level. Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: My Lords, the noble Lord Richard (Lab): My Lords, the noble Lord will Baroness will not be surprised to hear, as we had a know that some years ago I had the pleasure—indeed, brief discussion on this issue, that I do not accept that. the honour—of chairing a commission that looked at I do not think that that is the case. The First Minister the governmental arrangements in Wales and made and the Secretary of State are looking at this very certain recommendations. Having looked at the Wales closely. It is the case that if a piece of legislation in Bill, which it seems to me is of fiendish complexity, I Wales has an effect in England—for example, adoption do not recognise the Bill that is now coming before agencies set up in England—then it will need the Parliament as fulfilling the recommendations made by consent of this House. Similarly, if we wanted to do the Richard commission as long ago as 2002. 1283 Draft Wales Bill[LORDS] Global Climate Change 1284

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: My Lords, it is fair to Lord Hunt of Chesterton (Lab): My Lords, in 1992, say, as the noble Lord reminds us, that that was a very there was a United Nations Rio Conference on important report. The noble Lord presented a unanimous Environment and Development. That was the point at report, apart from a dissenting letter from the noble which the Governments of the world broadly accepted Lord, Lord Rowlands, who is not in his place at the the scientific consensus that the extra carbon dioxide moment. We are taking forward some of those proposals, and other greenhouse gases being emitted into the such as some of the procedures—I do not have the atmosphere would over the next century lead to a rise details in front of me—relating to Assembly numbers in the average temperature of the atmosphere and and electoral arrangements, which will now be a matter oceans, with serious and damaging impacts on the for the Assembly to decide. No doubt these can be health, environment and economies of most communities flushed out during the draft legislative stage of the Bill. all over the world. It was nice that today we had Psalm 23 in the Bishop’s Prayers, which reminds us of the preciousness of the global environment; and that Arrangement of Business is what this debate is about. Announcement of Recess Dates It was agreed in 1992 that through the combined 11.49 am efforts of people, Governments, industry and agriculture Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con): My Lords, it may it should be possible to curb this rise and perhaps even be for the convenience of the House if I make a short return the temperature and other elements of the statement about the recess dates for our Lenten Recess environment to a pre-industrial state. Since then, some in February. To save noble Lords rushing for their Governments, through further agreements and many diaries, there will, as usual, be a copy available in the types of action, have started on this path. The aim of Printed Paper Office in due course. However, I stress today’s debate is principally to review the UK that I make this statement with the caveat that the Government’s policies and actions, and those of British dates are subject to the progress of business. They are people, to reduce greenhouse gases to the 80% of their provisional dates. We will adjourn at the end of business previous level that was in the 2008 Act. In this debate on Thursday 11 February and return on Monday we shall want to discuss how Her Majesty’s Government 22 February. will work with other countries at the Paris climate meeting in December to achieve these goals and make further progress. Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab): My Lords, I have not given the noble Lord notice of this question but We are also making use of the opportunity afforded can he advise the House whether we are in a 12-month, by this debate to urge the Government to implement 18-month or two-year parliamentary Session? Much stronger environmental policies that should be an as we welcome these recess dates, we would all like to integral part of their policy on climate change. These know how long we are going to be here. stronger policies are urgently needed in urban areas, where air pollution is greatest and worsening. According Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, the noble to the World Health Organization, globally, each year Lord will know that we regularly discuss a number of more than 2 million people die from air pollution. In things in the usual channels. He will also know that I London in March, I and some others experienced air am not in a position to answer his question today. The pollution at an uncomfortable level—a level which I House will be made aware in due course. had not experienced since the 1950s. My remarks follow on from that experience. Business of the House I am grateful to noble Lords who will speak in the Timing of Debates debate and to the Minister for his interest and commitment to the issues before us. I declare an interest as a former 11.50 am director of the Met Office, where much of the key scientific research work was done. I am also a professor Moved by Lord Taylor of Holbeach at University College London, and involved in a small That the debates on the Motions in the names of consultancy. Lord Hunt of Chesterton and Lord Harris of Haringey The continued funding of research and data-gathering set down for today shall each be limited to two and by the Met Office Hadley Centre, the Natural a half hours. Environment Research Council and international Motion agreed. programmes is absolutely vital because policies for dealing with climate change are continually updated as scientific understanding develops. As we have seen Global Climate Change and heard in debates in this House, over the past Motion to Take Note 10 years climate change has been far from a steady process. Although there has been a steady rise in 11.51 am global carbon dioxide as measured on a graph that continually goes upwards, particularly the measurements Moved by Lord Hunt of Chesterton in Hawaii, the data on the rise of surface temperatures To move that this House takes note of the case across the world have been quite erratic. Indeed, this for action on global climate change and in particular was predicted by some scientists as long ago as the its impact on the urban environment in the United 1990s and we are continually learning how to understand Kingdom. this variability. 1285 Global Climate Change[29 OCTOBER 2015] Global Climate Change 1286

This is not just a scientific matter. It is of extraordinary average. The islands that I mentioned are planning for importance to people. We saw the extreme temperatures their eventual abandonment. Noble Lords who know in Europe and the UK in 2003, when 20,000 or 30,000 the history of this place will know that in the 11th and people died in Europe. There were extraordinary heating 12th centuries, we regularly had extraordinary floods events in Russia in 2010. The long-predicted warming in what is now our Parliament—but, fortunately, we of the Arctic and the melting of summer ice have are still here. begun to happen in the past 10 years. But what is In the light of these increasingly hazardous impacts perhaps new is that we have begun to understand in on societies worldwide, what would happen if the recent research in the United States that large continental world began not merely to stop increasing the emission fluctuations of the jet stream are related to the melting of carbon dioxide but to start reducing those emissions, of the polar ice, which leads to extraordinary and over a few decades, back to the levels of 100 years ago? persistent heating and cooling episodes across the The evidence from computer models presented at the northern hemisphere. I had to speak on the Korean Royal Society in 2014 was that, for example, polar ice radio. You hear the concerns in Russia and China, and would return. When people ask why we should make last year there were extraordinary changes in the United these big changes to our lifestyle and reduce our States. Wind storms and intense precipitation have energy use, the answer is that making them may well broken records, with rainfall in parts of the Far East enable us to restore some aspects of the environment. now at 100 millimetres per hour and rising. If we do not do so, the environment could change The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change more or less irreversibly. emphasised the difficulty of understanding these precise The UK’s cross-party legislation in 2008 and legislation processes but was quite emphatic in pointing out that since then in other countries such as Mexico, along the blanket of carbon dioxide that traps the outgoing with the European Union’s political agreements, have heat from the earth is leading to the steady warming of introduced a timetable of steady reduction. It is good the deep oceans. The temperature at the surface is news that the European Union countries are on course varying, particularly across South America, with El Niño to meet their reduction targets of 20% by 2020 and and La Niña. But the temperatures of the deep oceans 40% by 2030. It is surprising as some rather major are rising steadily and the consequence of this, plus countries have been increasing their carbon dioxide the melting of ice in glaciers from Greenland to Alaska emissions. However, that enables Her Majesty’s to Chile, is the steady rise in sea level. Government and our European partners to argue for If I may appeal to fellow parliamentarians, the the 150 or more countries assembled in Paris to introduce parliamentarians in the central Pacific, Melanesia— their own policies. It can be done. One reason for some measured optimism at this Lord Lang of Monkton (Con): My Lords, I apologise time in the evolution of science and government regarding for interrupting the flow of the noble Lord’s speech. climate change is that China agreed at the previous He referred to carbon dioxide. Some of us in this climate meeting, in Durban in 2012, to introduce House who are not of a scientific bent have been emissions reduction targets by 2015. I see that the surprised to read recently that carbon dioxide has noble Lord, Lord Stern, is in his seat. We had many contributed in a big way to the greening of the world discussions about China’s position before the Copenhagen and to improving agricultural productivity, whereas meeting in 2009. At that point, China was moving another gas, nitrous oxide—which again, we are told, ahead with efforts to make its emissions more efficient— is derived in part from diesel fuel—is a much more that is, having fewer emissions per unit of energy. villainous piece. Can the noble Lord enlighten those Now, however, it is talking about targets to reduce of us who ought to know more about this sort of emissions which will be implemented by 2020. Since thing? then, China and some other countries have been increasing the practical measures they are taking. Moreover, despite the objections of the United States Congress Lord Hunt of Chesterton: The noble Lord is quite to his policies, President Obama has targets and policies right about the rising level of carbon dioxide having for emissions reductions of 17% by 2020. an effect on greening. But equally, the average amount What is needed in practice is to make breakthroughs of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is rising because in energy use and production. It was interesting to of the release of heat by the combustion of oil and hear, at a meeting of European parliamentarians in coal, and indeed from the burning of forests. Several Paris in September, a review of the different methods studies have commented that there will be areas of the being introduced. In some senses, France is the leading world where, to start with, this rise in carbon dioxide country in Europe as it has the lowest carbon emissions will lead to an increase in agriculture—for example, per person because it uses all the technologies, such as near the equator—but the point is made that as the nuclear fission, wind, solar and so on. To some extent, temperature keeps on rising, this local advantage will the UK is following in that path. Interestingly, the car be considerably overwhelmed by the increase in industry—a major source of contributions, occasionally temperature. If we reach 3 degrees or 4 degrees—if we up to 30% in some countries—is talking about very make no progress—that will have a devastating impact. great reductions in emissions and improvements in So the noble Lord is right but it is also a question of efficiency. Another way that we can reduce our energy the timeframe we are thinking about. consumption is to have more efficient buildings. It is I want to comment on another feature of the rising extraordinary that high-performance bricks are imported sea level and its impact. There are areas of the world to the UK from Switzerland and we have not developed where the sea level is rising three times faster than the our own industry in this really important technology. 1287 Global Climate Change[LORDS] Global Climate Change 1288

[LORD HUNT OF CHESTERTON] 12.08 pm The generation of renewable energy is another aspect of the issue. Although there has been much development Lord Greaves (LD): My Lords, it is a great pleasure of renewable energy in this country, there is also great to follow the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Chesterton, concern about reduced subsidies for solar PV.We hear on this matter. His work, throughout his working about many small businesses in the more depressed lifetime, and expertise are of great value to this House areas of the UK going into insolvency and bankruptcy. and to society in general. I congratulate him on securing I hope the Minister will respond on that point. this debate. Government documents emphasise the business Quite often in this country when we talk about opportunities associated with introducing technology action on global climate change and what we should for reducing emissions. That is a very important feature, be doing here, people say, “Why bother? Our and one hopes that HMG will be displaying UK emissions are only a small proportion of those in technology solutions at the Paris conference in December. the rest of the world, and we really ought to be Another role for UK expertise, finance and industry worrying about China, India and many other is in helping to make countries more resilient against countries”. There are two reasons. The first is that hazards and their impacts, and UK businesses are if everybody took that view, no progress would making a particularly strong effort in developing countries. be made. The second is that leadership has to be It is very important that the UK science base is provided. During the last Government—the coalition maintained at the highest international level to provide Government—this country was providing genuine competitive advice. This week, the Japanese embassy leadership on climate change, led by the Energy Secretary noted the importance of collaboration with the UK at the time, Ed Davey, who of course is a member of on tsunami damage, and Japan wants to have a United my party, the Liberal Democrats. Nations day for dealing with tsunamis, which of course have caused many tens of thousands of casualties. At the beginning of the last Government, the PM Tsunamis are not, of course, caused by climate change, announced that they were going to be “the greenest but with sea level rises, the danger of further inland Government ever”. Whether they were or not is something penetration is an important factor. we can argue about for ever, but what is absolutely clear is that during the coalition there were a very The other important point I wanted to make about substantial number of green initiatives. Billions were environmental hazards—I have already touched on invested in renewables, thousands of green jobs were the air pollution aspect—is that, in many other countries created and ambitious climate change targets were of the world, one of the ways of dealing with these agreed. Internationally, we were in the forefront of extreme air pollution events is by using the media to discussion at the Lima conference in December last warn people and, in particular, to advise traffic and year and, under the coalition, Ed Davey was arguably people controlling emissions to reduce those emissions. instrumental in achieving the European Union climate We in this Parliament have had several Parliamentary deal to reduce greenhouse gases by at least 40% by Questions addressing the Department for Transport 2030. It is arguable that, had he not been there, that but it has refused to use its abilities to communicate agreement would not have been achieved. He was with drivers and urge them to reduce their emissions. certainly in the forefront of it. Similarly, the UK is an important member of the international— The question is: have the new Conservative Government followed the work of the coalition? We Lord Howell of Guildford (Con): I have to ask one can argue about particular issues during the coalition— more question from the lay point of view about some there were many compromises and lots of arguments of the things that the noble Lord is saying. Is he saying took place—but, by and large, they were a good that CO causes air pollution or that nitrous oxide Government in this area. Friends of the Earth has 2 now criticised David Cameron and the majority Tory causes it? He is absolutely right that CO2 causes global warming, but does it actually pollute the atmosphere? Government for dismantling the low-carbon policies He seems to be saying that it does. of the past 10 years. It has been said that our Prime Minister has gone from hugging huskies to talking Lord Hunt of Chesterton: As I have said, this debate about “green crap”, to quote what he is supposed to have said. is about CO2 but also about air pollution, which is a health problem. If you drive on French motorways, This country should not be in that position. In the you will see signs saying, “Drive more slowly: you will five or six months since the coalition left office, the reduce pollution and reduce carbon dioxide”. We could Conservatives have ended all government funding for do the same, but apparently the Department for Transport the Green Deal, which was an attempt to do what is does not want to. vital: to make homes more energy-efficient. Much Finally, one further aspect of pollution and climate better insulation of homes is a vital part of reducing is shipping. As I have said several times from these carbon use, because it reduces the amount of energy Benches, the International Maritime Organization is needed. The Green Deal was in my view not perfect by across the river. Ships are responsible for something any means, but it was a start. The Conservatives have like 15% of carbon emissions. Many solutions have scrapped subsidies for onshore wind and commercial been suggested to make ships more efficient, such as solar power. Noble Lords who have followed these having them go more slowly, but the British Government debates will know that I am not a huge fan of terrestrial are not very strong in pushing this compared with wind power because of the threat to the landscape in other countries. our uplands, but I am not saying that there should not 1289 Global Climate Change[29 OCTOBER 2015] Global Climate Change 1290 be any. Maritime wind power should certainly have We argued at that time that, given the disagreements, a great future, but the future of that industry is in there was an alternative. I have before me the document doubt. I produced two years ago on an alternative policy to The Government have announced plans to sell off the breakdown issues. For example, there was a big the Green Investment Bank. The green bank was argument over whether there should be a legal framework never on the scale or ambition that our party wanted, imposed on everyone. The Government had the view but again it was a very useful start. There is now real that there should. We argued two years ago that that worry that if it is sold off, its objectives will be was nonsense: you cannot get that because the American profit-maximising rather than green. The tax break Congress will not pass it, and nor will Germany or for clean cars was abolished in the Budget. Rules on China. We suggested—it was originally unopposed—that zero-carbon new housing have been scrapped in the we must have a legal framework within an international drive to build houses regardless of the consequences. agreement. The only way you could do that is to do The so-called tax for clean energy—removing the what we did in Britain when we led the world, well exemption from the climate change levy for businesses before the coalition came in, by bringing in the Climate that source renewable energy—has been done away Change Act 2008. I think that this conference is now with. about to propose something like that for every country. You legally look at the different policies but agree Meanwhile, the Government are putting all their targets that you must be checked on. You cannot just hopes in what for many of us is the very worrying deal rely on people saying, “Ah, we will do it at home”; with China over the Hinkley Point nuclear plant—it there has to be an international framework. seems to be wrong on almost every count and very worrying for the future security of this country—and Let us put that together with the other problem we in fracking. I have not been a total opponent of had: will sufficient money be available for adaption fracking; I have spent a lot of time looking into it and and mitigation? Certainly, we are a long way towards considering the position. It is absolutely clear that the £100 million we said we wanted, and we will find fracking in this country is not the answer to our future out about that. The French have made it a priority to energy problems. The more I look into it, the more I get those resources to deal with and help developing think that it really is not the answer to anything very countries as we move more and more to a low-carbon much at all. solution. That was right and there is movement on it. The Government are going up the wrong tracks As we approach Paris, there is one other significant on all these matters and will possibly be the least factor. My noble friend Lord Hunt and I were involved green Government for a long time. There has been in getting other nations in on this. We visited a lot of a total reversal of policies since the coalition. While them; I have been to China 30-odd times to argue the I was not a fan of everything the coalition did, this case for why it should be involved. We have gone to area is one where the lack of Liberal Democrats in 66 countries and asked them to pass climate legislation Government is something the country will come to to press their Governments to support the agreement regret. at Paris. With another body called GLOBE which did a lot of international work, we have seen the legislators 12.14 pm at the bottom begin to force their Governments to agree, to be honest, nearly everything in that agreement. Lord Prescott (Lab): My Lords, I congratulate my That was a significant factor. The legislators were noble friend and fellow campaigner on these issues of beginning to have a voice. They worked the government securing a global agreement on climate change. Also, delegation and together produced this report two years right at the beginning I declare an interest, not in ago, which we launched at Durban and which has now personal advantage to me but because I was there in been accepted. I am rather pleased that it was. If they Kyoto in 1997 negotiating the agreement. I was there do not do this, I will have to do an awful lot of at most of the COPs where we have argued and had crawling, but I believe that it is happening. It is important ups and downs. We thought we had a good agreement that we get a global solution to a global problem. I at Bali, it fell down in Copenhagen, then was restored think we are all agreed on that. again and we are now, with the possibility of a fundamental change since Kyoto, looking to a second I must note some negative factors, particularly people agreement to replace Kyoto with, probably, the Paris who question the science. That goes on. There are a protocol. few in this House who come up and say, “We do not In those circumstances, I have learned quite a lot. believe the thousands of scientists—they are wrong”. First, the science is right and the objectives set by However, there is a lot of evidence that shows the science and its connection between the production of scientists are right. Indeed, the latest finding now is to carbon and the weather is something we have argued give greater protection to potatoes than to human for and I believe in. To that extent, I will share some of beings. I will talk about that in a minute because at the my experiences from that time. end of the day it is about how and where air pollution begins to kill thousands of our people. What is different from Kyoto is that we now have America and China on board. Australia went off and The scientists tell us about that; this is about the has come back. Canada, this week, has come back to particles—and it is quite right that my noble friend the agreement. The signs are beginning to look good asked whether that was just down to the carbon or for an international agreement between 190-odd counties whether it was down to the nitrogen dioxide. Yes, that this time, not the 47 we dealt with in Kyoto. Things are is a problem. The same scientists told us that air changing and, I agree, looking good. quality has an effect on health. Here we are talking 1291 Global Climate Change[LORDS] Global Climate Change 1292

[LORD PRESCOTT] It is an argument about a human right. We are about actual deaths; we are talking not about whether going to Paris, but the Government will not be leading plants grow or whether they are greener but about any more, because they have given up—it is “green whether it has an effect on the lives of our people, crap”, according to our Prime Minister. Well, they are which is one of our major responsibilities. It is a wrong; they have paid subsidies to the wrong fuels, human right to be able to exist and to have clean, fair namely oil, and cut them back for renewables. That is air. Basically, I cannot help but bring to noble Lords’ not the spirit of Paris, and it is about time that they attention, under those circumstances, the recent changed their position and started joining the rest of announcement about air pollution in Britain. The the world community in doing something about climate Government have direct responsibility there, but they change. have left the leadership role—they no longer lead in Europe. We were the leaders in that, with the first Climate Change Act, and we achieved our Kyoto 12.24 pm targets far more than anybody else did. That was an Lord Stern of Brentford (CB): I join noble Lords in achievement. The Government have some responsibility thanking the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, not only for his for air quality, and we know that they can control past work but for bringing this debate to the House it—and we know that the Supreme Court has just said today at a very important moment in international that we are failing in our law and obligations on the discussion. I refer to my own interest as an active control of these gases. As a medical report has pointed researcher on these issues, and as a speaker, and I am out, some 10,000 people die every year from air pollution, involved, as a friend of the chair, in preparations for from the particles of diesel inside the car, and from the Paris. motor car industry. In that sense, we know that there Our understanding of international and UK action are thousands of deaths, because our medical authorities on this issue has to be founded on three basic propositions. have reported on it and our courts have said that it is First, the two defining challenges of this century are illegal. The Government say that they will alter this by overcoming poverty and managing climate change— 2020, and in the mean time they will still pay the price overcoming poverty as most recently expressed in the of death. That means more people dying from air sustainable development goals agreed in July. If we fail quality than from obesity, alcohol, tobacco—all those on one, we will fail on the other. Clearly, if we fail to things—and that is in the control of government. So manage the climate properly, we will create an environment all this argument that the Government are leading is so hostile that we will stop, reverse and undermine the not the case, whether in the negotiations or in doing great gains in development we have made over the past what we do in our own legislation. Curiously enough, few decades as a world. On the other hand, if we try to some countries, such as Australia, tried to get rid of manage climate change by putting obstacles in the way their climate change Acts, but it is statutory and they of overcoming poverty around the world in the next had to bring in the law, and the reason why we have 20 or 30 years, we will not have the coalition that we not done that in this country is because they would need to combat climate change. If we fail on one, we have to bring legislation to this House. I do not know fail on the other. whether we would be allowed to debate that; is it all right in our constitution, or is that man supposed That takes me to my second point, which is that the to—oh, I will leave it alone. two objectives—overcoming poverty and providing sustainable development and growth on the one hand The science is one thing, but it is being ignored. The and managing climate change on the other—are oil industry says that it needs to have an environment, complementary. They support each other. With good then it sends people to drill in the Arctic, even though policy, we can make both happen together. The transition we have eight times more oil than we need for the to the low-carbon economy will be enormously attractive. limits imposed for environmental protection. I do not As in previous waves of technological change, such as know where to start with the car industry; it has the first Industrial Revolution, we will see waves of brought in more and more diesel cars, with more innovation, investment and growth. It will be very particles coming from that, contributing to deaths. exciting. It is already very exciting. To that, we must The car industry gets its scientists and engineers to add that we will live in much cleaner, less polluted, less fix the engine so that it looks different from what is congested, more productive cities in a much more actually happening. That is illegal and fraudulent, and biodiverse world. This is an enormously attractive even bordering to some extent on manslaughter, if you route. It involves change and investment, but it is can show the connection. So what are the Government investment with very high returns. doing about it? Absolutely nothing. They are before The third point we have to understand is that delay the Supreme Court, not providing leadership. One of is very dangerous. This is a flow-stock process: the the major contributions that came out of the conference flows of emissions move into the stocks of concentrations was the suggestion that there should be more investment of greenhouse gases. The later you leave it, the more in low energy and renewables. What are we doing? The difficult it becomes. It is worse than that, because if we Government are paying thousands to the oil industry delay, we lock in high-carbon capital and infrastructure. to survive, and cutting subsidies for renewables. That That is a particularly severe lock-in problem in a world just seems crazy—and, in that process, we kill thousands where the population of our cities is likely to go from of our citizens. Blimey, when I hear them talking about 3.5 billion now—50% of the world’s population—to about how carbon is good for growing potatoes—let about 6.5 billion in the middle of the century, when it us start thinking of our citizens first, and eat the will be about 70% of the population. That happens potatoes but not necessarily fight to get more of them. only once in human demographic and economic history. 1293 Global Climate Change[29 OCTOBER 2015] Global Climate Change 1294

If we get that wrong and build dirty, congested cities UK, we kill 15 times more people with air pollution of the kind we have been building, we will be in deep than with road accidents, so it is now a big issue here. trouble. This generation, managing the next 20 years The burning of fossil fuels kills people on a massive of investment, change, transformation and growth, scale now—a WHO study last year suggested about has an enormous responsibility, but it is, for the reasons 7 million people a year, partly internal, partly external. I have already described, an enormous opportunity as That is an extraordinarily large cause of death. It also well. kills people in the future, due to the very damaging I shall not harp on the science. As the president of effect of climate change. Why would we want to do the British Academy and a fellow of the Royal Society, that when we know how to do things differently? It I encourage anyone who has new results to overturn would be criminally irresponsible to continue 200 years of science and show that the risks are along the path we have embarked on—and we do not negligible to publish those results immediately in the have to. learned scientific journals. I am sure there would be Finally, the UK has a very special position in this. great interest in their new discoveries. Obviously our own cities, to our own gain, can be The stakes we are playing for are immense. We have much more healthy and productive. Where everything not seen 3 degrees for around 3 million years, and we is mobile—capital, labour and ideas—people move to have not seen 4 degrees or 5 degrees for tens of the places that are most attractive. To build better, millions of years. We have been here for a quarter of a stronger, cleaner and less congested cities in the UK million years. It would transform the relationship between would be very good for our own economy, and, of human beings and the planet. Much of southern course, a world that acts will be much less vulnerable Europe could look like the Sahara desert, much of to storms, floods, droughts, and so on. Particularly in Bangladesh, Florida and so on could be submerged London, on a flood plain, we can understand how and many parts of the world could be battered by important that is. much more severe weather. Those are the stakes we are However, it is bigger than just those parts of the playing for. Hundreds of millions, perhaps billions, story. The UK—as I say, I come from a university would have to move and, if we have learnt anything, background—is very good at R&D, urban architectural that would be likely to result in severe conflict. The design and engineering. We have skills to bring to the stakes we are playing for are immense, but the alternative table and our political positions, particularly around route is enormously attractive. 0.7%, gain us great credibility in the world. I have worked as chief economist to the World Bank and the I shall focus on cities. We know more or less what to EBRD and have seen the respect that the UK gains do. As I said in the Stern Review, we must deal with from its moves in this direction. The Prime Minister the biggest market failure the world has ever seen. We led strongly on the sustainable development goals and know how to do that. We need clear, strong, credible we should offer him great respect for that. This is a policies around carbon prices, legislation, support for great opportunity for the UK: a time to lead, not to innovation and so on, but government-induced policy wobble or hesitate. If we carry on our leadership, we risk is the biggest underminer and destroyer of investment will gain something that will be very good for UK around the world. To hesitate, to wobble or to U-turn cities, our health, the economy and the world. kills investment, and this is a moment when we need infrastructure investment on a big scale. 12.33 pm We need more compact, connected cities with stronger public transport. We understand how to do this. We Lord Whitty (Lab): My Lords, I join other noble need more broad-based carbon-free energy, including Lords in thanking the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of zero emissions globally by mid-century. We know how Chesterton, for this debate and for his clear setting out to do that. China is planning more or less to do that. of the complexities of the basic science, which so often These are attractive policies that make sense and that get distorted in media commentary and occasionally we understand. We will learn like mad along the way. even within this House. It is also a bit daunting to This is a process of innovation and learning, and we follow such great contributors to this area as the noble must invest much more strongly in innovation than we Lord, Lord Stern, and my noble friend Lord Prescott, have as a world, including in the UK. who have done a lot to bring the whole issue of climate change up the agenda. We are now focusing on how I will not dwell on Paris—I have been working hard the UK Government can contribute not only domestically on that and we are likely to get a good outcome. It will but also to the geopolitics which precede the Paris not be as strong as many of us would wish—over the conference and those at the European level. next 15 years it will see emissions rise, not fall—but, It is of course true that none of this is easy. There nevertheless, it will set us off on a good path and lay a are conflicts between short-term economic goals and basis for the acceleration that will come. some of the decisions on investment priorities that we The gains to cities from all this will be enormous. need on the climate change agenda. In addition, as has Others have mentioned air pollution, and I will emphasise already been pointed out, there are some conflicts that because it is so important. A recent Berkeley within the environmental objectives. For example, the Earth study said that in many Chinese cities breathing development of biofuels and biomass can conflict is like smoking 40 cigarettes a day—woman, man and with land-use objectives and sustainable food production child; the children never recover. This is an enormously and, as has already been said, some of the immediate important story. India is much worse and, as we have measures on air quality—particularly on diesel—can heard already, our own country is pretty bad. In the be in contradiction to those you would need to take if 1295 Global Climate Change[LORDS] Global Climate Change 1296

[LORD WHITTY] carbon in the atmosphere. There will continue to be you were focusing only on climate change. However, in some dependence on fossil fuels in the world, including the long run, if we do not tackle the climate change in Britain and Europe, but if we can develop carbon agenda nationally, locally and internationally, none of capture and storage—which really ought to be a much these things will be able to be resolved either. greater government and European priority—we can At the global level, Kyoto was a binding legal square the circle. agreement and we will not exactly be replacing that at My final point concerns the urban environment, to Paris. My noble friend Lord Prescott made a major which others have already referred. It is a slightly contribution to a successful outcome at Kyoto. In different issue from climate change but the two are passing, in view of some sad news last week, I pay interrelated. It is not just the visible pollution in tribute to our then colleague, Michael Meacher, who Chinese and other Asian cities but the invisible pollution also made a big contribution in that respect. that affects people here in London, with the appalling levels of air pollution and the deaths, which others Copenhagen was in some senses a disappointment. have already mentioned. Here, there is a conflict with Although some success was retrieved at the end of the some powerful manufacturers. German car manufacturers day, it meant that binding agreements were no longer stalled or diluted earlier decisions in Europe on the on the agenda. However, as my noble friend Lord targets and standards for pollution in diesel cars. It Prescott said, we are now looking at a framework of turns out that, even then, they were prepared to fiddle national or regional commitments from all nation the system. It is known to almost everybody that the states, developed and developing, and a proper system on-road emissions have been five times that which was of verification and enforcement, which could ensure predicted from the tests. We now know that there was that those national agreements are met. That is serious corruption by at least one company, and I do different from Kyoto; nevertheless, it is a practical not honestly believe that Volkswagen was entirely alone political and geopolitical outcome, and we need to in this. ensure that it is met. I was distressed to read in today’s Times that the Of course, we have a central underlying problem, new limits being discussed at European level have been which is the dependence on fossil fuels by so much of made easier following yet more intensive lobbying, the world and so much of our industrial complex. A primarily by the German car manufacturers. We cannot couple of years ago, the IEA pointed out that the level allow these vested interests to override the health and of subsidies for coal and oil was substantially higher long-term survival of this planet, neither on air quality than that for renewables or nuclear. At the same time, nor on greenhouse gas emissions. I hope that the we have had the fracking bonanza distorting the relative Government are taking that lesson into account in economics of fossil fuels against renewables and nuclear. their agenda in Paris and Europe. Now, the fall in the oil price has again distorted the economics. The Modi Government in India, for example, are now making exploitation of their coal resources Lord Ashton of Hyde (Con): My Lords, I quickly the major driver for economic revival. That is not remind the House that this is a time-limited debate. It helpful. is a fascinating debate and I know that people have a lot to say, but, for the benefit of later speakers, if they On the other hand, we have had Australia coming could try to keep their speeches within the time limit, back into the discussion. One hopes that after last it will not cut into the Minister’s reply. week we will have Canada coming back into it too, and we have had the Obama initiative in America. In Europe there have been a few hiccups. The 2020 European 12.41 pm targets will largely be achieved. On the other hand, the Lord Giddens (Lab): My Lords, I, too, congratulate European ETS is a failure, and in parts of Europe—in my noble friend Lord Hunt of Chesterton for initiating Poland, in eastern Europe and, indeed, in Germany this debate so ably and responding so well to the since it abandoned the nuclear option—there is a plodders—the prodders, I should say. Both prodders growing dependency on coal. That needs to be reversed seems to have disappeared; I am not sure whether that if Europe is to make a major contribution, which it fits with the conventions of the House or not. always has done. We need to ensure that the environmental It is unequivocally the case that climate change is agenda which Europe is capable of delivering actually real; it is unequivocally the case that it has been driven can be delivered and that it is one of the great examples in the recent period by human intervention into nature; of European co-operation which, one hopes, will affect and it is unequivocally the case that it offers huge people’s consideration of our future within Europe threats if left unaddressed. Of course, there are substantial over the next year or two. areas of uncertainty about the true level of risk. Some However, all around the world the burning of fossil argue that it is low—much lower than almost all fuels will continue over the next few decades. With a climate scientists believe—in terms of its consequences continuing dependence on fossil fuels, the only way of for our societies. Yet uncertainty cuts both ways: the ensuring that the targets are met to achieve the 2050 level of risk may well be higher than most in the outcome is to develop a genuine system of carbon scientific community currently believe and also more capture and storage. I am not sure that we can achieve proximate. I have worked on the politics of change for that, but we need to invest scientifically and with the last seven or eight years. I am not a climate capital investment to try to bring carbon capture and scientist but my inclination is to take this view. This is storage into full effect so that the continued burning of a matter of risk, and the risks at the top end are huge. fossil fuels does not have a proportionate effect on the The IPCC is very likely a conservative organisation, 1297 Global Climate Change[29 OCTOBER 2015] Global Climate Change 1298 given the fact that it has to reach a consensus and is I will try to observe the six-minute limit for speeches. subject to such concerted attack. We are talking, One of the great transformations that is happening in in other words, about potentially catastrophic risks of our age, which I have studied intensely, is the digital an awesome kind at the top edge of risk facing our revolution. It makes it possible for even small committees future. to interact on a global level with others in ways that even 10 years ago were not conceivable. It makes it Those who wish to downplay those risks say that possible to jump stages in renewable energy, as happened nature is robust and nothing that human beings might in Africa with telephone lines. I welcome any comments do will affect it very much. The alternative view, as we from the Minister on the British attitude to how we have been reminded by Hurricane Patricia, which hit might further international collaboration along those south-west Mexico last Friday, is that nature is like a lines. wild beast and we are busy prodding it with sticks. To me, that metaphor is an appropriate one: nature is awesome and we are intervening in a systematic way, 12.47 pm the first civilisation ever to do so in human history in Lord Borwick (Con): My Lords, I declare an interest this fashion. as a trustee of the British Lung Foundation. I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for tabling Even those who worry a great deal about climate this important debate. He is absolutely right to highlight change tend to see it as an issue somewhere down the the need for action on global climate change. We as line, and that is one reason that it is hard to get individuals can, and should, do what we can to help. political traction against it among the public. The We should turn off the lights when we leave the room, noble Lord, Lord Stern, might disagree, but I think it turn the heating off when we are not indoors and so is crucial to see climate change as a here and now forth. As a country, too, we should do what we can to threat, and not just a threat 20 or 30 years down the help without paying over the odds and impoverishing line or a threat to our grandchildren. Some of us bill payers. But the truth is that the difference we can speaking here have grandchildren. Therefore, it is a make as individuals is tiny, and indeed the difference threat to us today. This is because climate change is we can make as a country is tiny, in comparison with already progressing, but also because it overlaps with what is needed. other large-scale risks that are unique to our civilisation: population growth, which might reach 10 billion; the Countries such as China and India are growing at a global depletion of resources, especially water scarcity rate of knots and are burning fossil fuels so quickly and drought in troubled areas of the world; and the that any UK national strategy to curb climate change existence of weapons of mass destruction. That point is rendered useless within hours. We know that China was made with some force and with a great deal of has had the biggest increase in CO2 emissions and backing material in a famous television series in the therefore any work to stop that growth at the UN United States called “Years of Living Dangerously”, conference in Paris later this month could be extremely which fortunately played to pretty large audiences. valuable. So I welcome the opportunity to discuss this important issue. Action on a global level is urgent. Like other speakers, I read recently that the London Weather Centre is I wish the UN meetings in Paris in December every about 1.8 degrees warmer than southern England and success. Other noble Lords speaking here today, like it has been since 1981. That of course has nothing to myself, were in Copenhagen in 2009 and will recall all do with global warming: it is because of the London too well—although my view may differ a little from heat island. But if we add the 0.8 degrees average others who have spoken—the fiasco that ensued there. global warming, then central London is presumably Some 180 political leaders, including the President of about 2.5 degrees warmer than it once was. When we the United States, attended, but there was no overall consider that much of the debate on global warming is agreement. There was just a single sheet of paper at about the disastrous effects of a change of 2 degrees, it the end of that meeting. We must avoid anything like is important that the discussion is level-headed and that again. The very fact that that happened will that we remember statistics in context. concentrate minds this time and some formal agreements Even so, there are much bigger decisions that we will likely be reached. can take to help reduce emissions globally. Some of I suppose that I differ slightly from one or two them involve being bold at home. For instance, we other noble Lords who have spoken because I remain should fully embrace shale extraction. But equally as a little dubious about the practical outcome. There important is encouraging others to do the same to will be agreements but, in practice, international law reduce reliance on coal. Sharing shale gas technology has no teeth. There is no mechanism for global will allow it to develop as rapidly as possible and be enforcement of international law and there are no used worldwide. A paper for the Centre for Policy effective sanctions. For that reason, at least in my Studies entitled, Why Every Serious Environmentalist opinion, bilateral negotiation will be just as important. Should Favour Fracking, by the noted University of China and the US produce something like 42% of California, Berkeley scientist Professor Muller, who I total global emissions. They are working closely together. should declare I know personally, shows that shale gas The Chinese have changed their views substantially, so extraction will actually reduce greenhouse gas emissions. that at least will have to exist alongside whatever A global switch to natural gas would be a big step formal agreements are made. Whatever happens in forward. Paris, a great deal of action will have to be bottom-up. While CO2 may indeed be a global villain, air Here, cities, towns and even small communities can pollution is undoubtedly a local villain. Particulates have a prime role. hurt lungs today, right now on the streets of our towns 1299 Global Climate Change[LORDS] Global Climate Change 1300

[LORD BORWICK] 12.54 pm and cities, particularly the lungs of children, so the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, is absolutely right again to Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws (Lab): My Lords, I highlight the urban environment in this debate. In the too thank the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for initiating this debate, which is so timely. I should also say that I early 2000s, the focus was on CO2 alone, but the evidence is now showing that that was a mistake. As chair the International Bar Association’s Human Rights part of the strategy to reduce carbon emissions, the Institute, and recently I was invited to co-chair a Government encouraged people, using tax breaks, to working party on climate change and human rights. switch to diesel cars. The RAC Foundation estimates We reported last October and the report is now the that these tax breaks have helped to encourage UK subject of international debate and is being used by citizens to buy an extra 2.7 million diesel cars since the United Nations in preparation for the Paris talks. 2009. And, of course, exhaust fumes are poisonous. Climate change is one of those cross-border issues The poison may no longer be filled with lead, but it is that presents serious challenges to all nations, so requires particulates that we should worry about the most. multinational responses. It is just like international Particulates bypass the human throat and, just like terrorism or international trafficking of people or cigarette smoke, go right down into the lungs where indeed any of those things that crosses borders. We they can cause the most damage. So the single-minded need to have collective responses and, as the noble pressure on reducing CO2 meant that engineers produced Lord, Lord Prescott, described, we need an international more diesel cars, which then led to higher particulates. framework in which nations and national legal systems That means we now have a disastrous air pollution level. then act. It is important to recognise that—just as the noble Lord, Lord Stern, was saying, about the UK Volkswagen was one company that made a big being very good at research and development and switch to diesel at the turn of the millennium, but as good in leading the way in so many areas—the UK is tests for air pollution became more demanding, that also very good at law. We have led the world, particularly company and probably other manufacturers decided in areas of law which we sometimes shy away from. We to cheat. VW allegedly set up 11 million of its vehicles have led the way on human rights but we have also led with “defeat devices” so that it could tell when they the way in commercial law. People look to the United were in test conditions. The cars then temporarily Kingdom courts and the arbitration system that we emitted less toxic gas. But independent analysis showed have set up to deal with disputes which cross borders. how they emitted up to nine and a half times more That has made international markets and globalisation toxic nitrogen dioxide when they were on the road. possible. We should learn from commercial law that, This scandal shocked and concerned me and millions where there is the political will to make things work, it of others. What is equally concerning was the news at can work. We really have to develop the political will the weekend that the Department for Environment, around this issue to see the role that law can play. Food and Rural Affairs may have known that manufacturers were gaming the system as long ago as Many serious human rights issues come out of all 2009. This weekend’s Sunday Times reported that Defra this. There is the right to life—indeed, the noble Lord, commissioned research which showed that when on Lord Prescott, referred to it—which covers all the the road, diesel cars were producing much higher things that we know are necessary for a real human levels of air pollution than was expected as a result of existence. There is the right to shelter, food, clean tests. Another report was allegedly submitted to Defra water and so on. People in the poor world, in particular, in 2011 which identified serious concerns with the suffer from the changes that we see taking place. testing. If those reports were submitted, then Defra Sitting on that commission, looking at climate change, should have acted, but of course VW should not have we really had to be persuaded by the signs. People who cheated. I hope that the reports, if they do exist, will are in denial on this really have to get to grips with be released and that in the future we will see real-world what the scientists of our world are telling us. emissions testing to root out the bad guys. Moreover, As the noble Lord, Lord Stern, said, people in instead of championing one type of fuel over another, low-lying regions, such as the Maldives and Bangladesh, perhaps we can look at ways of encouraging the are seeing their oceans rising and are living in fear of purchase of electric vehicles, such as allowing them the consequences of the melting polar caps. People into bus lanes. everywhere living on the water’s edges whose livelihood The evidence is now showing that it was a mistake comes from fishing and so on are seeing those livelihoods destroyed. Indeed, we see the consequences of aridity to concentrate on CO2 alone, as we did in the early 2000s. Air pollution is now a pressing problem and it and desertification of whole stretches of our land has been greatly exacerbated by our focus on reducing mass, and the effect of that on people’s lives. What people do is move. Yearning to survive means that CO2 emissions. So while we should indeed take a global view on climate change, we should also do so people get moving, so having been alarmed by the on air pollution. Indeed, the presence of PM2.5 in the sight of refugees on the Mediterranean drowning, we air currently kills more people annually than AIDS, will see much, much more of that in our world as this malaria, diabetes and tuberculosis combined. But while problem increases. I do not think that we should allow local action on climate change does not make much of those who are dismissive to seek to control of any part a difference, local action on air pollution can and of this debate. would make a big difference. If the UK is to succeed in Our report was published and one of the things improving air quality, it needs to be embedded across that we said, as lawyers entering this arena, was that all government departments. They all have some role we should develop the arbitration system internationally, in tackling what is an extremely serious problem. just as we have done in commercial law, to deal with 1301 Global Climate Change[29 OCTOBER 2015] Global Climate Change 1302 those cross-border issues that will arise almost of building stock that will be there in 2050 is built in an necessity. I want to ask the Government whether they energy-efficient way. In our report, we concluded that have taken note of a case that has just been decided in the Government are not on track with either of these June in the Netherlands where a citizens’ organisation objectives. got together. Under an NGO called Urgenda—obviously For example, retrofitting of home insulation is accepting the notion that this was an agenda that had important not only to reduce greenhouse gas emissions some urgency attached to it—it brought a case against from existing buildings, but also to help to alleviate the Dutch Government saying that they had failed to fuel poverty, since many of the poorest people live in reach the targets to which they had committed and the least well-insulated homes. However, the rate of had a duty to protect. It invoked tort and human home insulation has slowed down recently, as a result rights law and this case was won by a three-judge of changes in government policy. Another example is court, deciding that the state has responsibilities to low-carbon heating, such as heat pumps and district protect. Indeed, national law can be invoked within heat schemes. These currently provide less than 2% of that international human rights framework. It has heating in buildings. It is not clear how the Government implications for all of us, because you can be sure that intend to achieve their ambition for 12% of heating to activists the world over on this issue will be bringing come from low-carbon heating. cases against their nation state. We are likely to see it The problem is that the main policies aimed at here; the Government should be alert to that. I hope improving energy efficiency in the built environment— they will recognise that turning to law should be a last namely, the green deal, the energy company obligation resort. We should be leading the way on all this. and the zero-carbon homes initiative—have been, or I urge the Government to look at the report from are due to be, ditched. Nor is the future of the the International Bar Association. It is highly measured— renewable heat incentive beyond April 2016 at all lawyers on the whole do not tend to be very radical. clear. In their response to our report, the Government However, one of its suggestions—on which it has were disappointingly vague about what they intend to sponsored work that is now being done—is to create a replace these initiatives with. I hope the Minister will model statute, to be drawn down by nation states, to give us more information on the development of the turn international commitments into national law. Rather new policies and the timescale for their publication. like our own Climate Change Act, this will ensure With regard to new buildings, the Government consistency of law internationally and that nation have rejected the Committee on Climate Change’s states can be held accountable for their commitments. recommendation to continue with a zero-carbon homes There is inevitably a role for law in all this. When policy as being too onerous for the construction industry. discussions take place in Paris, I hope that Britain—which In light of this, will the Minister tell us how energy has such a proud legal record—will lead them and will efficiency standards of new homes in England compare argue for a commitment across nations, bound by an with other countries in Europe, including Scotland, international framework, to draw down laws that call Germany and Denmark? Governments to account. I turn briefly to adaptation. The main risks to the built environment that will arise from future climate 1pm change are flooding and overheating. Currently, about Lord Krebs (CB): My Lords, I, too, thank the noble a quarter of a million properties are in high flood-risk Lord, Lord Hunt of Chesterton, for initiating this areas, either in riverine or coastal flood plains. This timely and important debate. I would like to change figure will increase in the decades ahead, as a result of the focus slightly by looking in very specific detail at rising sea levels and increased intensity of rainfall. what the UK Government are doing to tackle their What is more, we are making the problem worse: new obligations under the Climate Change Act 2008. I do properties are being built at a rate of more than so as a member of the Committee on Climate Change— 4,500 a year in areas that are currently at high risk or the statutory committee set up under the Act to monitor are likely to be so in the decades ahead. The good the Government’s progress—and as chairman of its news is that most of these buildings are protected by adaptation sub-committee. In July we published our flood defences. However, the bad news is that, even statutory report to Parliament on the Government’s though the Government have invested substantial sums progress both on mitigation, reducing greenhouse gas of money in improving flood defences, that will not be emissions, and adaptation, preparing for the inevitable enough to prevent the risks of flood damage to properties consequences of climate change. increasing in the future. I would like to focus on our recommendations for The Government’s response to our report is confusing. the built environment, looking first at mitigation. Buildings On the one hand, Defra says that it is now looking account for 32% of the UK’s greenhouse gas emissions. into the need for a new strategy; on the other hand, the It is therefore clear that reducing emissions from the joint response from DECC and Defra states that the built environment should be an essential part of the Government do not see the need for a new strategy for Government’s strategy for achieving the reductions flood risk. I ask the Minister for clarification. Who is that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Chesterton, referred right: Defra, or DECC and Defra together? to. This comes in two parts. Of the building stock that Surface water flooding is also likely to increase as will exist in 2050—when we have to reach our greenhouse a result of climate change, with increased heavy gas emissions target of at least 80% below 1990 levels— rainfall events. Current patterns of development in 80% has already been built. They will need to be our towns and cities—including paving over gardens, retrofitted to be made more energy-efficient. At the infill development and the use of impermeable paving—are same time, we need to ensure that the other 20% of the making the problem worse. 1303 Global Climate Change[LORDS] Global Climate Change 1304

[LORD KREBS] any thoughts on how we can persuade other nations to The Pitt review that followed the severe floods of be more ambitious and increase their promises to cut July 2007 recommended that all new developments emissions? should have sustainable urban drainage systems. Eight Calculators of this kind are good at giving a general years later, that has still not been implemented. Moreover, picture, but the regular curve implies that climate most local authorities have not yet finalised their local change is a gradual linear shift over the years, which, flood risk management strategies, as required by the of course, it is not. As my noble friend and the noble Flood and Water Management Act 2010. I would Lord, Lord Stern, explained, the shifts will be sudden appreciate the Minister’s comments on these specific and erratic. They will be unpredictable and may not problems. always be in one direction. One region can suffer rising I would also like to say a few words about overheating. sea levels, causing homelessness, water shortages and Climate models suggest that summer daytime temperatures inadequate harvests. In another, sudden surges in in the upper 30s may be the norm in this country by temperature and drought can lead to a lack of food 2050. Living in many of our current buildings will be supplies, and to disease and epidemic. These are changes intolerable in those conditions. It is not just homes; an that will have the practical effect of compounding the estimated 90% of hospital wards are of a design—with problems of poverty, poor health and, in particular, large windows that cannot be opened, and poor weak government. My noble friend Lady Kennedy ventilation—that makes them prone to overheating. explained that these changes would force even more This will be a real problem in the future, but the people to migrate across the Mediterranean or through Government’s response does not consider it necessary the Balkans. The case for action is not simply to take any further action. We need to act now to humanitarian; it is also economic. prepare for the effects of climate change in the decades The Government have made a real effort to seal a ahead. climate change accord in Paris. They have promised to My final point on overheating is that we are losing contribute nearly £6 billion over five years to help the urban green spaces. Some 7% of urban green space climate change fund and we are doing quite a lot to has been lost since 2001. We all know that green space phase out coal. Why, then, did we go in the opposite is an important element of the urban environment, direction of cutting support for wind and solar power? which reduces the effects of overheating. If subsidies have to be withdrawn, surely they should The Government clearly recognise the importance be withdrawn from the fossil fuel industry. both of mitigation and of adaptation. In many areas To help support the US pledge, President Obama good progress has been made. However, if our buildings, obtained the support of 81 major American corporations. towns and cities are to be both carbon efficient and There are many British corporations that take a similar adapted to the future climate, additional urgent action view. Will the Government take steps to acknowledge is needed. I hope the Minister will reassure us that the and work with them? In their recent paper Fixing the Government have got the message and are prepared to Foundations, the Government commit themselves to: act. “Reliable and low-carbon energy, at a price we can afford”. 1.07 pm This can only be done jointly with business. How? First, convince people that climate responsibility is Lord Haskel (Lab): My noble friend has drawn our not in conflict with economic growth. Why? Because attention to climate change on many occasions. He is the present path is not sustainable. A low-carbon, absolutely right to do so again in anticipation of the cleaner environment is. This is the message from companies summit in Paris. The Paris agreement is intended to that have pledged to support a cut to carbon emissions. make sure that increased warming does not exceed an internationally agreed limit of 2 degrees centigrade. Of Decarbonising the economy can take many forms course, you cannot force countries to cut their emissions, and offer many economic possibilities, but individuals so, in preparation for the Paris agreement, nations can help, too. At home we have virtually stopped using have been submitting voluntary plans to show how the car and we are the proud owners of electric bicycles. they propose to cut their emissions from 2020. My noble friend Lord Hunt and other noble Lords To help understand what is going on, the Financial are concerned about protecting the urban environment. Times has produced a handy climate change calculator, They are right. Air pollution is already causing a large which I have been looking at. The calculator shows number of premature deaths and serious illnesses. As that the best pledges come from the United States and my noble friend Lord Prescott reminded us, in places the European Union, and the worst from India, Russia our level of pollution is above EU limits. A Supreme and, yes, China. Court judgment earlier this year requires the Government to submit plans to make us compliant. There are now A noble Lord: Oh! both moral and legal arguments for us to act. The recent consultation document has a number of Lord Haskel: That is what the calculator shows. welcome elements, such as a national framework of Only Brazil is pledging to match the efforts of the clean air zones, retrofitting and alternative fuels for European Union and the United States, while other vehicles, as well as electric cars. I draw the Minister’s countries are somewhere in-between. The calculator attention to the work of the Environmental Industries also shows that, if all pledges are kept, warming will Commission—I declare an interest as a past president. be restricted to just under 4 degrees—well above the Member companies are actively engaged in air pollution target of 2 degrees. While I welcome the Government’s control. These firms show how cleaner air can be ambitious pledge to reduce emissions, do they have achieved more speedily in practice by using more 1305 Global Climate Change[29 OCTOBER 2015] Global Climate Change 1306 cost-effective technologies, and which technology is my work in what we have traditionally called the third right for which geographical area. Adopting these world, I have not been surprised. That is because what technologies, instead of buying them in from elsewhere, we are doing is asking the majority of humanity to would help to drive the growth of the UK air pollution sign up to a strategy devised by the advantaged industrial industry. nations and to produce a contribution which is essential I return to the Paris summit. I have tried to show to success. Let us look at that in perspective for a that we can have rising living standards while taking a moment. Those nations are being asked to sign up to, responsible attitude towards the management of air and get involved in, the disciplines which will be pollution and climate change risks. Let us hope that necessary before they have even begun to get access to the Paris summit is a start to the world acting together. what we take for granted in our way of life and our economic and industrial organisation. They have to do that, of course; that necessity cannot be escaped. 1.15 pm However, that demands of us imagination and real Lord Judd (Lab): My Lords, I join with those who commitment to ensure that this agreement is as fair as thanked my noble friend Lord Hunt for introducing it can be in the burden that it places—of course, this timely and vital debate. We should also thank him burdens can create opportunities for humanity—on for his lifetime of hard, committed work and leadership the poorest people in the poorest countries in the in this sphere. We wish him well for the continuation world. Therefore, redistribution of resources to enable of that. those people to organise their society in such a way Britain led the Industrial Revolution. We therefore that they are helped to make that contribution is were the leaders in the accumulation and acceleration absolutely crucial. of the destruction of the environment, with pollution My last point is that it is not just fairness and and all the huge issues that we are discussing. That justice that will be important in this sphere; there must demands of us a leading role in ensuring success in also be a sense of ownership across the international Paris. We cannot just go to Paris. We cannot just have community. If it is felt by the leaders of the majority hard-working, committed civil servants negotiating of the world that this is something devised by others like mad; we have to have political leadership with with which they are having to co-operate, we are in commitment on this score. I want to hear from the danger of having a minimalist approach to its application. Minister an assurance that the Prime Minister himself However, if those leaders feel that it is something in will focus on and go to Paris, and that the Foreign which they have participated and which they own as a Secretary and the Secretary of State for International policy, we are in a strong position. Therefore, I repeat Development will go. that the leadership of the Prime Minister, the Foreign My next point is: let us not just think that it is a Secretary and, of course, the Secretary of State for matter of leaving it just to DfID or the Department of International Development, and the full-hearted Energy and Climate Change to get on with it. As has commitment of leaders and Ministers in many other been said very well—not least by the Minister’s noble spheres, are absolutely indispensable. friend Lord Borwick, in what I thought was an incredibly interesting speech—this demands disciplined and 1.22 pm committed support and work by almost every government Baroness Young of Hornsey (CB): My Lords, like department. I do not see the signs of that at all. In other noble Lords, I very much welcome the way in fact, I see a contrast. On the one hand we take security which the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Chesterton, set threats extremely seriously.I congratulate the Government out the terms of this debate on climate change and the on having concentrated on setting up a security council urban environment. It has inspired colleagues outside of their own that brings a cross-section of ministries your Lordships’ House to contribute to my words together to work on that issue. But this is a far bigger today. I will focus on fashion and I am therefore threat than terrorism or anything else that we are grateful to Professor Dilys Williams, director of the discussing. It is the survival of the species. If that is Centre for Sustainable Fashion at University of the the case, where is the evidence of disciplined, Arts, Gillian Mead of Hubbub and Dr Andrew Brooks interdepartmental leadership on this—to which, of from King’s College, London, for their helpful comments course the Prime Minister’s commitment will be on this subject. essential—and of the drive that is necessary? Cities are hungry beasts. Given that the percentage We have talked a great deal about hopes of an of the world’s population living in cities is now 53%, and agreement in Paris. I, too, hope that there will be that, according to World Bank data, 82% of the UK’s agreement in Paris, but if I have learned anything in population lives in urban areas, with this figure set to my life—in public life, in Parliament and, indeed, in rise, how we learn to live in cities will shape how well government—it is that there is a hell of a difference we are able to live in the world. While many people between an agreement and the effective application of now seem to have accepted the science of climate that agreement in practical policy. That is why we must change, lifestyles played out in our urban environments resist any intellectual or theoretical temptation to say, do not reflect this understanding. Our production, “If we get agreement, that’s victory”. It is not at all. It consumption and management of waste associated is essential that we get agreement, but the agreement is with fashion in particular is problematic. the gate to the action that will then be necessary. As co-chair of the APPG on Ethics and Sustainability I will make one other point. We have regretted the in Fashion, as a member of the advisory council for failures in international negotiation in this sphere in Fashion Revolution and a board member of Cotton the past. I have regretted them, too, but, because of Made in Africa, I have heard from a wide range of 1307 Global Climate Change[LORDS] Global Climate Change 1308

[BARONESS YOUNG OF HORNSEY] Everyone has a part to play in diminishing the people working in all parts of the fashion industry’s impact of these destructive practices. Behaviour change long, complex supply chain, and all agree that there is such as reducing washing temperatures from 40 to a huge problem that needs urgently to be addressed. 30 degrees can help reduce the problem. Less frequent You do not need to be a climate scientist to understand washing and cleaning of clothes would also help. that. Recently, cleaner alternatives based on water and natural In so many ways the British fashion industry is a soaps rather than toxic chemicals have been identified huge success story, contributing more than £20 billion for use for clothes that would otherwise be dry cleaned. to the economy and employing 800,000 people. Fashion More and smarter campaigns targeted at specific markets enables us to express our identities and its importance are needed to raise awareness of “clever care” in the is economic, social and cultural, but our rates of public at large. consumption are unsustainable. In 2010, the global More generally, there are some signs of hope within apparel industry produced more than 150 billion the industry and of change. For example, collaborative garments—enough to provide more than 20 new articles consumption in fashion that creates wider social benefits, of clothing for every single person on the planet. Here such as Rentez-Vous and Swishing, are examples of in the UK, where 90% of our clothes are made overseas, social interaction through the exchange of fashion; we are importing finished products made predominantly Antiform in Leeds and Here Today Here Tomorrow from oil-based materials, or land-intensive and water- are examples of businesses based on creating community intensive cotton. And after all that growing, processing, cohesion and operating as a hub rather than as just use of toxic dyes and transportation across the world, another retailer; and business models based on the what happens? We wear the garments briefly, clean whole life of a product, such as Nudie, offer a mending them excessively, then discard them, creating low-value and alteration service as well as a take-back scheme waste. According to the WRAP report in 2011, we for its jeans. throw away 350,000 tonnes of clothing into landfill Action on climate change and the protection of the each year. One senior Marks & Spencer executive told urban environment depend critically on what citizens a recent APPG meeting that 10,000 garments went consider to be socially acceptable habits. We need to into landfill every five minutes in the UK. make taking action on climate change more visible, The way in which we produce, consume and dispose the social norm, culturally appropriate and enjoyably of clothing not only has negative environmental impacts creative. for us but affects those in other, vulnerable parts of the developing world. If our unwanted clothing does not 1.28 pm go into landfill, what we do not want is exported to Lord McFall of Alcluith (Lab): My Lords, I congratulate other markets, where local industries, often in south the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, not only on introducing Asia or sub-Saharan Africa, may be diminished and this debate but on his lifetime of work on this issue, local creative and craft talent frustrated by the lack of and I am going to continue the theme that he mentioned opportunities because of a clothing market saturated at the beginning of the debate—Psalm 23 and the with the West’s unwanted clothing. preciousness of the global environment. Why do I say The toxic processes of the fashion industry are that? Last week, I attended an event hosted by the devastating, as demonstrated by Greenpeace’s Detox Global Warming Policy Foundation. Two trustees of report. On receiving an award for her creation of an that organisation, my noble friend Lord Donoughue ethical and sustainable fashion brand at a recent event, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester, Eileen Fisher told the audience that fashion was the gave a very critical response to the papal encyclical second most polluting industry in the world after oil. Laudato Si’—or “Praise be to you”, taken from the And let us be clear about the impact of pollution. As a canticle of St Francis, “Laudato si’, mi’ Signore”. number of noble Lords have said, it kills. Pure Earth Their conclusion was that the gentle idealism in claims that in the developing world more people die as Laudato Si’ meant that the Pope and others wanted to a result of pollution than die from disease. see cats no longer chase mice. That so misconstrued the encyclical. One area where government could work more effectively with the industries concerned to help the I am not sticking up for the Pope but I am sticking public to change their choices and habits is with up for the message that is in Laudato Si’. The essence respect to the care of clothes once they have been of the encyclical is an invitation to every living person bought. I would like to hear from the Minister his on the planet to enter into a dialogue for the care of sense of what more the Government can do in this our common home. As a background, Pope Francis respect. A 2009 Defra report, Reducing the Environmental spent his vocational life in the marginalised areas of Impact of Clothes Cleaning, points to evidence gathered Latin America, where he saw the impact of the rainforest in France which shows that the use phase of a pair of being logged, the oceans being overfished, the fresh jeans contributes between 35% and 59% of climate- water being polluted and the mines scarring the landscape changing greenhouse gases and water eutrophication, and poisoning the habitats. and between 10% and 34% of ozone layer depletion That environmental degradation is something that and water consumption. Washing, drying and dry the noble Lord, Lord Stern, referred to in his excellent cleaning clothing use large amounts of energy, thus book, Why Are We Waiting?. The noble Lord, Lord contributing to global climate change, and can cause Stern, has given great service in this area. As chairman air and water pollution and toxicity that have a significant of the Treasury Select Committee, I was very grateful impact on urban environments. to him for coming along over the years and educating 1309 Global Climate Change[29 OCTOBER 2015] Global Climate Change 1310 us on this issue. He and Pope Francis share the same 1.35 pm goals, in that the noble Lord, Lord Stern, says that one Lord Berkeley (Lab): My Lords, I join other noble of the overriding humanitarian goals in the 21st century Lords in congratulating my noble friend Lord Hunt of will be, Chesterton. We have had some really excellent speeches. I “the elimination of mass poverty and risk of catastrophic climate think we are unanimous in expressing concern about change”. climate change and urban air pollution—and I would Laudato Si’ addressess not just a single issue but the add the failure of the government policies to support great global challenges of our time—yes, pollution them. The noble Lord, Lord Stern, and others gave us and climate change, but also water, biodiversity loss, a long list of what I would call policy failures or the quality of human life and global inequality. As changes, including the built environment—maybe that someone with a science background, I think that the is pandering to the builders, who do a lot of funding science is compelling, particularly that presented by for some parties—flooding and sustainable urban drainage the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, which systems. I have been fighting a long time for SUDS to says that the “severe and pervasive” impacts of climate be part of an alternative to the Thames Tideway change will be felt everywhere. Even in our own country, Tunnel—cheaper, less risky, more environmentally friendly the Governor of the Bank of England, at a meeting of but of course not so good for the bankers and the Lloyd’s of London in September, stated that, building industry. There is also air pollution and, of course, energy. It is rather a long list. “climate change will threaten financial resilience and longer-term prosperity”. I fear that the lack of interest of this Government is evident from the lack of Tory speakers—except, of He said that, course, the noble Lord, Lord Borwick, who gave a “once climate change becomes a defining issue for financial really good speech. He could have been sitting on any stability, it may already be too late”. of the Benches, really. He gave opinions similar to those of many other noble Lords. He must be feeling a He said there was still time to act but that, little bit lonely on the Back Benches today. Is he the “the window of opportunity is finite and shrinking”. only Tory Peer who actually believes in the environment, air quality and global warming? We will see. It is important that we have the best possible outcome from the Paris conference, where we will have 196 countries Lord Hunt of Chesterton: We did get some good together. I do not think it will be possible to deliver a questions. credible path away from potential disaster but it may slow the pace of us approaching such a point. Lord Berkeley: Indeed. As my noble friend Lord Laudato Si’ also mentions social problems. It says: Judd said, it needs political leadership. If the lack of support from the Back Benches in this House is rather “Social problems must be addressed by community networks evident, I hope that does not put off the Minister and and not simply by the sum of individual good deeds”. his colleagues from having the courage to do what I Its twin aims are an “ecological conversion” and a think all speakers have urged them to do in the coming “community conversion”, upon which not only the months. physical survival of the poor but the spiritual welfare I certainly believe that we have a serious problem of the natural world depend. Many religious and with climate change but, as other noble Lords have non-religious people agree with that point. said, it must not be at the expense of other pollutants, Laudato Si’ has reached out to a global constituency which, according to a press release from the European and the message is liberating and empowering. Its call Parliament yesterday, cause more than 400,000 people to protect and respect the beauty of creation is one to die prematurely each year across Europe due to that was taken up by George Monbiot—no fan of the poor air quality. That is a different figure from that Pope—when he said: given by some other noble Lords, but it is a very big figure. I am pleased that the Parliament and the “Pope Francis reminds us that our relationship to the natural Commission have now agreed to fix national emissions world is about love, not just goods and services”. ceilings on several important pollutants—not just one—to I am reminded of another Jesuit, Gerard Manley fight air pollution. I hope that gets taken forward Hopkins, who visited the area that I represented for because, as other noble Lords have said, it is not 23 years in the House of Commons, Loch Lomond. just CO2. His poem “Inversnaid” encapsulates that reverence for The Volkswagen scandal is probably just the tip of the scenic beauty of nature: an iceberg because people believed that the silver “What would the world be, once bereft bullet of reducing CO2 would sort out all the other Of wet and of wildness? Let them be left, problems. But, as other noble Lords have said, PM2.5 O let them be left, wildness and wet; and nitrogen dioxides are really serious. The worrying Long live the weeds and the wilderness yet”. thing is that the European engine emissions standards Francis has provided us with global moral leadership. are not technologically neutral because the EU has set If we do not heed the scientific evidence and the much looser emissions standards for particles and rational voices that we have heard here today and oxides of nitrogen—NOx—for diesel vehicles than for elsewhere, I suggest that not only will the wet and the petrol ones, which is the opposite to what is happening wildness be bereft but our children, grandchildren and in the United States. future generations. Action is important and I hope Yes, people have realised that diesel is a problem that the Government help in that process. these days, but it is very much worse than petrol. 1311 Global Climate Change[LORDS] Global Climate Change 1312

[LORD BERKELEY] other place on the Finance Bill about changing the tax Transport for London says that diesel cars emit somewhere regime on community energy schemes. I know that in between 90% and 95% of the most harmful exhaust my own area, the south-west, community volunteers emissions from cars in London. That is a very big in the Exeter area have spent some two years building percentage. up these schemes. They have no chance of getting to Another myth that I would try to put to one side is where they need to be by 30 November, which will now that Euro 6 standard engines will solve the problem, be the cut-off date for taking advantage of that regime. because they will not. There is already plenty of evidence That will really hit communities and volunteers—the that real driving emissions for Euro 6 standard diesel people who do this because of their belief in their own cars are about four times worse on average than for the communities. I would be interested to hear the Minister current Euro test standards. As one or two other noble comment on that. Lords have said, let us not listen to the manufacturers I was very pleased that the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, who are lobbying very hard for what I think they call a raised a specific area that does not otherwise feature in conformity factor to reduce the limits or change the this Government’s policy. It did not feature during the way that the tests are done. This is really serious. coalition period either but I would like to raise it too. I agree with the Clean Air in London campaign, For most of this year, I have been privileged to have which has said that: been asked by the University of Birmingham to chair “Diesel is … the biggest public health catastrophe”, a commission for it on “doing cold smarter”. This is in UK policy history. It will be interesting to see the opposite side of the coin to heating as it is about whether the Committee on the Medical Effects of refrigeration and cooling, which are increasingly Air Pollutants—I cannot pronounce its acronym, important. I will illustrate that in a minute but, clearly, COMEAP—produces a most authoritative first national we use cooling for ourselves through air conditioning estimate of the mortality attributable to nitrogen dioxide. in our homes and cars. We use it increasingly for our It may also update its estimate attributing 29,000 data in data centres worldwide. We use it for keeping deaths in the UK to PM2.5 in 2010. That figure might food eatable and at the right temperature, through go up and, as other noble Lords have said, it is an refrigeration in our supermarkets and homes. But awfully large number. perhaps even more importantly for some of the themes I will develop, we use it in transport, for medicines and One of the solutions is for the Government and a for various scientific processes and implements as lot of other people to look at this as a one-atmosphere well. problem instead of trying just to reduce one gas, CO2, important though that is. Perhaps they could have a It is estimated that in this country now, some 16% of policy hierarchy that would start with lifestyle changes our generated electricity is used to cool rather than to such as driving less and using bicycles. My noble heat. Globally, it is estimated that some 10% of total friend Lord Haskel uses an electric bike but he also carbon emissions come from refrigeration and cooling. uses ordinary bikes for shorter distances. Provided Internationally, that is important and a good thing that electricity is generated, it is probably all right. because some 50% of vegetables and fruit in the There are many things like that, such as travelling less developing world are wasted or spoiled before they get and using more public transport, but the key is to have from field to market. This area will grow over the next a much more stringent ban on diesel cars in the centre. few decades, partly because in developing countries, Let us also not forget that although particulates in big particularly in cities, the middle classes and those with cities such as London are important, an awful lot of greater disposable income will use more refrigeration pollution comes in from outside through shipping, and air conditioning. This is why the urban environment farming and other things that need to be addressed. I is important as part of this debate. The most recent hope the Minister will look at this one-atmosphere statistics I could find were for 2010, when 50 million idea and try to turn it into a win-win package of air-conditioning units were purchased in China alone—in emission reductions and health benefits. That would just that one country in one year—because of rising both benefit climate change and protect the UK’s affluence and the issues of temperature and personal environment in the short term. I can only hope that comfort which the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, mentioned. Ministers will pursue this, with or without the support It is estimated that by 2060 the world will use more of some of their Back-Benchers. of its generating capacity for cooling down than it does at the moment for heating, so this is a real issue. I 1.42 pm am pleased that the Committee on Climate Change Lord Teverson (LD): My Lords, I too thank the mentioned it in this report. It is the only area of policy noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for this debate. On a personal and political debate I am aware of that focuses on basis, I also thank him for his great contribution to the buildings being designed to dissipate heat in future, as Arctic Select Committee, whose report we are debating well as to conserve it for fuel poverty and keep it in next week. I am not going to go through the list of all winter. the things in green and environmental policy on which One challenge of this area is not just that growing the Government seem to have gone into reverse. My demand, which, to come back to what we are discussing, noble friend Lord Greaves did that very adequately at is particularly in urban areas. It is about much dirtier the beginning. and more toxic technologies than what else is in our However, I would like to ask the Minister about energy landscape. I have to admit that I have blood on something where I have a real concern: the recent my hands because most of my business career was in announcement by the Treasury during Report in the the freight sector. Latterly, I operated fleets of trucks 1313 Global Climate Change[29 OCTOBER 2015] Global Climate Change 1314 nationally that were temperature-controlled to distribute area. We are a matter of weeks away from the Paris to supermarkets. Those of your Lordships who know negotiations and this is therefore a very timely debate that industry, or who even look at the streetscape to be having, which has shown some of the strengths when you walk outside, will know that the majority of of our House. The Government Benches have perhaps refrigerated vehicles have diesel units on the front, been slightly underrepresented, but there may be other which essentially keep the temperatures right for the things happening today that we are unaware of. products inside. The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, mentioned Notwithstanding that, it has been an excellent debate. the Euro 6 standard. The fact is that those standards I always find when I sit and listen to debates in your do not apply for transport refrigeration units. In fact, Lordships’ House that I learn something new, and to come back to the important points made by the today has been no exception. I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Borwick, about nitrous oxides, they noble Baroness, Lady Young, for introducing a whole create something like 30 times more nitrous oxide new topic for me, about the fashion industry and its emissions than diesel engines. They also perform very relationship to this. I am very grateful to the noble badly when it comes to particulates. We do not do that Baroness, Lady Kennedy, for her perspective as a smartly but there are fantastic technologies coming lawyer on the things that we need to start preparing forward in the United Kingdom to challenge some of for, such as how arbitration will be carried out and these problems. I hope that the Minister can take an what we can look forward to in terms of legal cases interest in this area, as I am sure he would want to, and the tools that we will need to enable us to see and discover some of those differences. proper justice in this area. That was fascinating. One other area relates particularly to the urban environment. I expect all noble Lords who have been I am not going to be able to do justice to all noble to cities in the developing world but also in North Lords who have spoken in the 10 minutes that I have, America and other places will have walked down a so I apologise. I always hear new acronyms: the noble street and seen all these air conditioning units sat Lord, Lord Berkeley, introduced SUDS—sustainable outside windows, banked up on high-rise buildings as urban drainage—to my vocabulary, for which I am part of the urban landscape. Of course the outcome of very grateful. We have had fantastic speeches with that is that the residents inside manage to remain great use of imagery. The noble Lord, Lord Giddens, cool—at huge energy cost—but you also have whole gave the apt analogy of us prodding the environment heat islands in urban landscapes, which cause urban with a stick. We are conducting a global experiment heat to rise, so you have this cycle and spiral in terms which we do not know the consequences of. That is of energy needs, emissions and everything else. something we must take very seriously. I was also There are answers to this and ways round it. For fascinated to hear the eloquent defence by the noble instance, although we are not very successful at them, Lord, Lord McFall, of the Pope’s encyclical and the we talk about local district heating networks. There call to arms that it represents. Like him, I am no great are opportunities for district cooling networks as well— defender of the Pope, but the symbolism of what he that is one of the technologies we could do. We should said and his overarching call for us to take more care be able to change, through liquid air and other of our common home and to have more respect for it technologies, how these refrigerated transport systems resonated with everyone from every religion. work. I was fascinated by the contribution of the In addition to these wonderful new additions and noble Baroness, Lady Young, relating to fashion. perspectives, we heard from some of the greats in our Supermarkets will not, on the whole, put doors on ranks today. The work that the noble Lord, Lord their cooling units and displays, because we as consumers Stern, is doing in every area is absolutely remarkable. would then stop buying as many of those products. Knowing that he is a friend of the chair and is working Supermarkets therefore have shelves without doors in with Christiana Figueres to secure a deal in Paris order to keep their sales up. I cannot criticise that as makes me feel very confident that we will make progress such—it is our consumer behaviour that maybe is the in December. I wish to mention everybody and apologise problem. if I have skipped over anyone. I should mention the When I was very close to Ed Davey and others in noble Lord, Lord Krebs, and his role on the Committee the coalition Government, I have to say that I did on Climate Change, which has to be one of the best nothing about this issue—I am guilty. But this is an aspects of the UK’s governance structure for climate area where there are big, serious energy challenges change. The Climate Change Act 2008 created it as an into the future, particularly around the urban environment, independent committee, and it has served us very well, and about not just carbon pollution but nitrous oxide helping to depoliticise what is essentially an overarching pollution. This is something for the future. I commend priority for a Government of any hue. The Committee the Committee on Climate Change and the noble on Climate Change does excellent work, and I know Lord, Lord Krebs, for bringing this to people’s attention. we will be meeting soon to discuss the setting of the We really need to pay attention to this in the future fifth carbon budget. I am sure we will return to that and I hope the Minister will take this up and pursue it. debate in the coming weeks and months. I am very happy to help him to do that. I apologise if I have missed anybody out. The role played by the noble Lord, Lord Prescott, in the Kyoto 1.52 pm negotiations and since then with the GLOBE network Baroness Worthington (Lab): My Lords, I lend my in visiting countries such as China and India, to forge voice to the many before me in paying tribute to the a consensus and to build the sense that we are not noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for securing this debate and working in isolation but that this is a global effort, has indeed for his lifetime of contribution to this important been most remarkable. I think I will mention everybody 1315 Global Climate Change[LORDS] Global Climate Change 1316

[BARONESS WORTHINGTON] our global climate, but it was a marginal issue. The now, because I have almost done so, but I apologise noble Lord, Lord Hunt, began his brilliant speech again if I miss anybody. I would also mention the by bringing us back to Rio in 1992, which was the noble Lord, Lord Haskel. The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, first point when the global community started to introduced a whole new concept about cooling and wake up to this issue. Since then, we have seen how we do cold, which, again, is a new area that I have faltering moves forward to try to address it, but still not paid too much attention to. I am grateful to him not the urgency or co-ordinated effort that we need. I for bringing that up. am very hopeful that Paris will see the beginning of In the remaining six minutes, I hope to pick up that. Paris will mark a real watershed in our approach some of the themes that have been discussed and ask to climate change, because it is the first time that we the Minister to offer us some insights into the will have all the major emitting countries in the same Government’s perspective. The noble Lord, Lord Krebs, room debating the same set of commitments. I am used the phrase “disappointingly vague” to describe delighted to read today that 155 countries have now the Government’s response to some of the Committee submitted INDCs, representing 88% of the global on Climate Change’s recommendations or at least the population and 87% of global emissions. It is clear Government’s thoughts on where they were going. I that there has been a change. We are now moving am optimistic and hope that this new Government, forward in a much more holistic and equal way. despite perhaps having got off to a bit of a shaky start, That is not to say that it will be adequate because, will come forward with a clearer plan for what they as we know, the sum of the pledges does not add up intend to do in relation to energy policy. At the moment, to a safe climate. It is imperative that the Minister and if you are simply observing from the side-lines, it does his colleagues, when they go to Paris—indeed, we look like a big reversal in the direction that was set hope, the Prime Minister himself, when he attends—stress under the last, coalition Government. The noble Lord, the need for a proper ratchet review mechanism to Lord Greaves, set out some of the examples of where be included within the new deal. We cannot lock we have seen some unhelpful—or perhaps just ourselves into lengthy targets which we know now to misinterpreted—events in recent months, which have be inadequate; we must be able to revisit them, certainly given the impression that the Government are no within five years, to ratchet them up. Why should we longer committed to solving climate change or to the do that? Because almost every target that has ever low-carbon agenda. been set on climate change has been beaten. We always I hope and suspect that is not the case, but I also find that it is easier to deliver than we first thought. suspect there is a rather large battle going on within That is true of the UK and of Europe. We are already the Government about the mechanism by which we ahead of our 2020 targets on climate change, and we decarbonise, which is what is causing the friction. I can go much further. Let us bank what we have at imagine, as with everything, that it will be the Chancellor Paris, but let us make sure that we create the right and the Treasury who are playing a hugely important framework not to lock ourselves in but to enable more role in this debate. It is incumbent on all of us to put ambition as things progress far faster than we can now forward a vision that the Treasury can accept and imagine. embrace. I say that because although it is of course interested in longer-term issues, its focus will primarily I want to end on this. As we sit here today and be on short-term economic issues. The problem is that consider our roles as legislators in this great House, climate change is not a short-term issue. The timescales what can we contribute? Some of us will be attending involved are very lengthy, which makes it very difficult Paris, which will be an historic contribution. For those politically for it to compete with the shorter-term, of us who do not attend, our job lies in monitoring, pressing political priorities that the Treasury or the scrutinising and advancing expert opinions on the Prime Minister may be facing on a day-to-day basis. laws and regulations which pass through this House. For example, we need look no further than the steel We have already seen with the Energy Bill how well problems of this week, which we have all seen in the this House can work in embedding the issue of climate media. We are losing industrial activity in the UK, change into government thinking. Together, we have with obvious social and economic impacts. That is improved the Energy Bill in its passage through this bound to press on Ministers’ minds, but we must House, and I hope that we can hold on to some of always bear in mind that the economy is a wholly those improvements until it returns here. It is not just owned subsidiary of the global environment and that the Energy Bill: there is the Enterprise Bill and the we should not see climate change as a purely Green Investment Bank issue, the Bank of England environmental issue—it is a social issue and an economic Bill, which I spoke about because I consider this to be issue as well, and is of overriding importance. As the a financial as well as an environmental and social risk, noble Lord, Lord Stern, has said, the stakes are incredibly and countless future regulations and laws that we will high. We are talking about whether we can keep a need to pass to tackle this issue. habitable planet. This is the only habitable planet that The UK is at the forefront with the Climate Change we have yet discovered. We inhabit a unique planet, Act. We are a seeding ground for good ideas. We have from all that we can see so far. Our generation bears a fantastic lawyers, policymakers and politicians. We huge responsibility for ensuring that that planet remains have already contributed a huge amount and we can habitable. go on to do a great deal more, but it will need political It falls to our generation because 20 or 30 years consensus, and we should ensure that that remains. I ago, some people may have been aware of the hope that the Government will do all they can to impact of burning fossil fuels and deforestation on reassert that consensus in the coming weeks. 1317 Global Climate Change[29 OCTOBER 2015] Global Climate Change 1318

2.03 pm Turning to our domestic position and our priorities as we try to develop policy for this Government, we The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department are not turning our back on renewables. Renewables of Energy and Climate Change and Wales Office (Lord will remain of crucial significance. We will actually be Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con): My Lords, first, I thank spending more on renewables this year than we did the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Chesterton, for raising last year. I met some industrialists this week who were this very important topic in the House and for all he keen to go forward with renewables on a no-subsidy has done in relation to meteorology and the Hadley basis, because the cost of renewables is coming down. Centre, which is much valued in government. He has That is a very good sign. I have discussed this previously made an outstanding contribution. with the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington. Renewables This has been a debate of extraordinary quality will continue to play a key role, and so will nuclear. with contributions from people who really know an I think that nuclear has not been mentioned in this outstanding amount about this area—people such as debate, or barely—I beg your pardon; it was mentioned the noble Lords, Lord Stern and Lord Krebs—and by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, in his introduction. statesmen who have been involved in it for a considerable Nuclear power has a key part to play. We will not get time in relation to Kyoto, such as the noble Lord, to where we need to be—I know that the noble Baroness Lord Prescott, and who really understand it. There is opposite agrees on this—without the impact of nuclear, an awful lot in this debate which I will try to address. and that will remain the case. We are looking at other types of nuclear, small modular reactors and thorium—we At the outset, along with others, I would like to say had a very good debate on that last week—and that is how valuable the intervention of the Pope has been on being taken forward. this issue—and not just the Pope but other faith leaders, not limited to Christianity. Our own right CCS has been mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord reverend Prelate the Bishop of Salisbury was part of Berkeley, and others. It is an important part of our the Lambeth declaration, which involved many other policy. As the noble Baroness mentioned, it is being faiths, including the Islamic and Jewish faiths. That embedded into the Energy Bill. I again pay tribute to needs to be recognised: they, too, have an important the cross-party and Cross-Bencher involvement in trying role to play. to develop consensus on that; I think we have consensus that that is of key importance. I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, Air quality is of course a Defra lead, and it is for what I thought was an outstanding contribution. I consulting on draft air quality regulations to make us absolutely agree about the need to build consensus on compliant as quickly as possible with the legal position. this: there is more at stake than domestic political The diesel challenge in London and elsewhere, but differences; this is an area where we really need to take particularly in London, is considerable. That is an united action, not just within our country but globally. important issue, as my noble friend Lord Borwick In that connection, this debate has raged over a reminded us. I pay tribute to the British Lung Foundation, massive number of government departments. Those which he mentioned; it does fantastic work on what is people who have been in government—I know that a real issue. It is not just a domestic issue, as these there are many of them in the House—will recognise issues rarely are. Countries such as Singapore and the silo nature of operations in Whitehall and Westminster, Malaysia take domestic action—certainly Singapore so I will ensure that the debate is circulated to other does—but are badly affected by forest fires in Indonesia. government departments so that they are aware of the Nothing can better illustrate the fact that we need impact that all government departments have in this international agreement on many of these issues. The area. noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, made the point about the importance of a legal order here. I will try to address all the remarks that have been Picking up the point on rules-based systems, I do made. In so far as I miss any, I will ensure that a letter not agree with the noble Lord, Lord Giddens. We need goes to all Peers who participated in the debate picking a firmer rules-based approach. That is being developed up any points I miss or where I undertake to write at Paris. It is certainly key to ensuring that we have an because we do not necessarily have the answer immediately effective scrutiny and review system to make sure that or it is a more complex issue than can be covered in a these rules are applicable and followed. short period. First, I shall say a few words about the domestic Lord Giddens: I just make it clear that I am fully in situation, which is important but only in so far as it favour of a rules-based approach, but in international feeds into the international position. I shall say something relations there is no system of enforcing those rules in about the domestic position from the perspective of the way that there is in the national legal system. energy and climate change, then about air pollution Therefore, power counts for an awful lot. What the and then about the international position. Noble Lords, large powers do could really be crucial, alongside the not least the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, mentioned the Paris agreements, if we are to get traction in countering importance of the Climate Change Act. He said that it climate change. is crucial that we are committed to carbon budgets; I entirely agree with that comment, which was made by Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: I thank the noble other Peers as well. The noble Lord, Lord Prescott, Lord for that—it was a fair point. It is also fair—I mentioned the importance of that, as did many others entirely agree with the noble Baroness opposite on by inference because of their involvement—the noble this—that in practice there has been overdelivery on Lords, Lord Stern and Lord Krebs, and so on. this area by countries. That is certainly true of the 1319 Global Climate Change[LORDS] Global Climate Change 1320

[LORD BOURNE OF ABERYSTWYTH] moment falling slightly and the economy is growing. United States and China. Yes, of course there need to That illustrates what can be done. The annual turnover be review and rules-based systems. That is very much of United Kingdom firms in the low-carbon sector the way that the United Kingdom is approaching this, was £122 billion in 2013. That demonstrates the and many other countries as well. It is something that opportunity that exists for— is very much discussed. Let me say something about the international position Lord Krebs: Does the Minister acknowledge that, ahead of Paris. I think we all accept the need for even though the Government have the manifesto action, and that Paris is important and a step change commitment to insulate 1 million homes over the next very different from Copenhagen in that we have five years, that will still leave more than 2 million lofts 155 countries already which have declared their INDCs— uninsulated? their contributions in relation to emissions. That will grow and there will be more of them. It represents the Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: Of course I do: there vast majority of emissions but other countries will is no shortage of challenges here. join in with that process. It is very different. Just to bring us back to the reality, which was again I pay tribute to the way that the French have outlined by the noble Baroness opposite, there are approached this. They have organised this conference three key aims for the department. I do not think they very effectively. To illustrate the key role we have have changed from the previous Government. Those played at DECC, my right honourable friend the aims are affordability, security and decarbonisation. Secretary of State, Amber Rudd, has played a leading Noble Lords will recognise the reality of government part on finance, working with Ségolène Royal in response that sometimes hard decisions must be made. There to requests from the French to try to put an effective is no better example of that than the steel industry. financial provision into what will happen at Paris. I was at the steel summit. Many Labour MPs, That is a vital part of what will happen there. understandably—and, in one sense, rightly—argued that there should be relief for those businesses. We Noble Lords will be aware that the question has seek to go forward with all three aims together. I do been raised about the commitment of the Prime Minister. not disagree with that. He personally made the commitment at New York of £5.8 billion—a significant amount, widely welcomed All I am saying on this particular point is that there throughout the developing world—towards adaptation is a massive opportunity for British businesses. I will and mitigation. It is split 50:50 because we recognise come on to that in a minute. It is not just the Government that both adaptation and mitigation play a key part in that must address these issues; it is also cities, businesses this—a point quite rightly made to us by small and and individuals. We have touched on all that. A massive developing island nations. There is a particular challenge part of the UK economy is already low carbon. If we for small island nations. I met the Prime Minister of translate that, say, to the opportunities for zero-carbon Tuvalu and representatives from the Maldives. Even if cars, again we are already the second-largest producer we get agreement on the 2 degrees, it will not be nearly of those. This is another massive opportunity for the good enough for them: they will still cease to exist as United Kingdom. Work is being done on this, but countries unless we go beyond that. again it is not simple. It is a question of ensuring that we have battery storage and so on. This work is I am optimistic about Paris, but it is a staging post. going on. It will not get us there on its own. We need to look beyond Paris. It is certainly a step on the process Baroness Worthington: It is a challenge and there towards getting things right, but we need to move needs to be cross-departmental thinking, but I always beyond it. Ensuring that we have a road map as well as feel that at the heart of this is the Treasury. A positive review and rules-based systems is essential if we are to statement from the Chancellor on the kind of approach protect countries such as Tuvalu, the Maldives, Bangladesh that the Treasury wants us to take—that is, least cost, and so on, which we must as a moral imperative—hence focusing on those win-win situations where we can the need in the mean time for the adaptation to help attract inward investment into the UK—would be those countries. That is a real part of the approach of enormously helpful to reassure people ahead of Paris the United Kingdom. that the whole Government share this agenda. Could I will pick up some points made by noble Lords. As the Minister commit to speaking to the Chancellor to I said, any that I miss I will pick up in writing. The get him to say something positive on this, please? noble Lord, Lord Greaves, talked about a government commitment on fuel poverty. Some 1 million homes Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: The noble Baroness is will be insulated under this Government. That is a not wrong about the need for messaging. My right manifesto commitment and we are obviously committed honourable friend the Chancellor has on many occasions to following that. spoken of the importance of addressing the two challenges The noble Lord, Lord Stern, rightly referred to the of climate change and the economy at the same time, interconnection between the economy and the and noted that we can go forward on the two together. environment. The two can go forward together. He I will endeavour to get her copies of that. Of course spoke of addressing poverty and the challenge of the Treasury is central to this. It is central to it in any climate change. That is absolutely right. The noble Government. That almost goes without saying. Lord’s seminal report demonstrated just how right it is I addressed the points from the noble Baroness, that those two can go forward together. They are Lady Kennedy. I understand the points she made doing so at the moment. Indeed, emissions are at the about the great advantage we have with the United 1321 Global Climate Change[29 OCTOBER 2015] Syrian Refugees 1322

Kingdom’s strong position on law and order, and the I shall write to the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, in importance of the legal system, and so on. I absolutely relation to the tax regime on community energy schemes, agree with that. because I do not have the answer to hand. I have a feeling that it was recognised in the consultation as a To illustrate the fact that this is being taken forward special case. However, I may be wrong on that and I internationally, and that not only the United Kingdom shall write to him in detail. has moved on in climate change policy, since 1997 there have been globally 750 new policies enacted. This has been an excellent, first-class debate. I shall Now, we all know the challenges in making sure that make sure that a detailed response goes to noble Lords those translate into action, but at least there is a on points that have been discussed and that I have not recognition internationally of the nature of this challenge. covered, and that those points will go to all government That is really one of the very heartening things about departments. Once again, many thanks to the noble the position at the moment. Of course there are differences Lord, Lord Hunt. of opinion on the way forward in the sense that each 2.22 pm country will want to puts its own particular case, quite naturally, but there is an international recognition of Lord Hunt of Chesterton: I thank the Minister and the nature of this challenge. other noble Lords for their participation in this debate. We have had very interesting speeches—I am looking I certainly do not need convincing about the scientific forward to hearing about whether the fashion dimension case. I do not believe that the great bulk of the will also go to Paris and upstage the conference—and overwhelming scientific evidence is wrong; it is right. I many other important aspects were introduced. do not believe that 155-plus countries are wrong; they are right. This is a massive challenge and one we need Motion agreed. to address. Indeed, it is one we are addressing. I was talking with representatives from South America yesterday, and there is recognition across the board that this is a Syrian Refugees crucial issue that needs addressing quickly. Question for Short Debate I shall pull my comments to an end because, although 2.23 pm I have not got to the end of my 20 minutes, I think that Asked by Lord Truscott the debate has run out of time. The noble Lord, Lord Haskel, also raised the issue of economic growth and To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the light climate action going forward together, and I entirely of the recent assault by the Syrian armed forces on agree with that. Aleppo, what is their strategy for tackling the refugee crisis in Syria. The noble Lord, Lord Judd, has vast experience of overseas matters. He asked, perhaps slightly mischievously, Lord Truscott (Ind Lab): My Lords, no one can fail if the Prime Minister will be going. He will know that to be moved by the harrowing scenes that we have the Prime Minister’s diary would not be public at this witnessed on the beaches of Greece and in the mud stage—but, suffice to say, the Prime Minister, DfID, and rain of the Balkans. The Syrian refugee crisis is a the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change humanitarian disaster of epic scale and biblical and the Foreign Office are all very closely involved proportions. Europe has not seen such a forced movement with this, and all regard it as imperative. We have had a of people since the end of the Second World War. The state visit by President Xi, when these were discussed. Syrian people are a proud people with an ancient We are about to have a visit from Prime Minister Modi civilisation. They are not leaving their country because of India, when these things will be discussed. These they are economic migrants but because they have to. are all crucial. Four million people have left already, and more than The noble Baroness, Lady Youngof Hornsey, asked 11 million, half the country’s pre-crisis population, some very interesting points, although I was slightly have been forced to flee their homes. Overall, an blindsided because I had not thought of this dimension. estimated 12 million people in Syria need humanitarian I shall get a detailed response to her on those points, assistance, half of them children. The figures are but it is certainly true to say that she raises relevant mind-boggling. issues on air and water pollution and the use of The Minister will no doubt tell your Lordships’ energy. House how much Her Majesty’s Government are already I thank the noble Lord, Lord McFall, for endorsing doing to help. The UK has committed over £1 billion the Pope’s encyclical in this regard; that is entirely in aid to support the refugees, doing more than any right. other European country, and is the second largest bilateral donor. Britain has provided over 18 million On domestic adaptation, we are doing many things food rations, given almost 2 million people access to domestically; it is partly about mitigation and change clean water, and provided education to 250,000 children. of policy and partly about adaptation. That means The Government have provided sanctuary to 5,000 things like coastal protection on the east coast, in Syrians in the UK, and promised to take in another Clacton, and flood measures in Leeds, as well as the 20,000 by the end of this Parliament. All these efforts Boston barrier. We are looking at how effective the are highly commendable, yet they provide no solution Thames barrier is. Thank goodness that we have it, but to a refugee crisis that threatens to overwhelm Europe we need to look at it again in the light of changing by its sheer scale. They partially address the symptoms circumstances. while failing to offer a solution to the cause. 1323 Syrian Refugees[LORDS] Syrian Refugees 1324

[LORD TRUSCOTT] promote a political solution to the Syrian conflict. As the Prime Minister told the other place on This may mean making a choice between the lesser of 7 September last: several evils. “This issue is clearly the biggest challenge facing countries US and Western policy to date to defeat or even across Europe today”. contain ISIL has failed. We have all witnessed the tragic destruction of Palmyra’s irreplaceable antiquities He added that in helping the refugees, including those and the growing threat that ISIL poses to our domestic from beyond Syria, security and well-being here at home. Some humanitarian “we must use our head and our heart by pursuing a comprehensive groups have said there is no difference between Assad approach that tackles the causes of the problem as well as the and ISIL. I would disagree; while both are barbaric, it consequences. That means helping to stabilise the countries from is only the latter that poses an existential threat to our which the refugees are coming, seeking a solution to the crisis in very society here at home. However bad Assad may be, Syria”.—[Official Report, Commons, 7/9/15; col. 23.] he does not pose a terrorist threat on the streets of The issue here is that the Government appear to London. have no strategy whatever to stabilise the situation in There was an enlightening and erudite exchange on Syria. In effect, we have contracted out our foreign the Syrian crisis in your Lordships’ House last Thursday, policy in Syria to others. Without bringing peace to when the noble Lord, Lord West, said: Syria, Europe will never stem the flow of refugees who “Unless we start to discuss and talk with Russia, Iran and—I are understandably fleeing the civil war, and facing am afraid—the butcher Assad, and all the coalition, we are not death from both the Assad regime and its opponents. going to be able to put together a package that will enable us to If the war continues, millions more will leave and head destroy ISIL, which is the group that we have to destroy because it to Europe. The UK’s offer to take in 20,000 people will is the greatest threat”. be less than a drop in the ocean. The noble Lord, Lord Reid of Cardowan, talked then about shooting, In August 2013, the Government’s policy was to “the wolf nearest the sledge first”.—[Official Report, 22/10/15; join the United States in bombing the Assad regime. cols. 783-85.] Over two years later, the policy is to bomb President He meant ISIL—and he quoted Winston Churchill Bashar al-Assad’s opponents, ISIL, ISIS or Daesh, if saying that if Hitler invaded hell, he would at least the other place allows it. Back in 2013, a historic make a favourable reference to the devil in the House opportunity was lost to work to achieve a diplomatic of Commons. The noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford, solution in Syria with the Russians, who managed at and the noble Lord, Lord Dannatt, broadly concurred. least to get the regime to give up most of its chemical There has been much discussion about Russia’s weapons. Today, the West’s approach to the Middle aims in Syria, a country where it has had an alliance East is in tatters. The policy of regime change in Iraq and a strategic interest since the 1950s. It is perhaps and Libya led not to democratisation but to chaos and worth quoting Churchill again: a flood of refugees. In Afghanistan, the Taliban is “I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia: it is a riddle resurgent, leading to yet more refugees heading towards wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma”. the UK and Europe. What is often not quoted is the next line, which is, In supporting regime change in Syria and the removal “but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest”. of the indisputably brutal Assad regime, why does the We do not have time today to discuss Russian foreign West expect an outcome different from Libya or Iraq? policy. I have been following Russia for almost 30 years, In Syria, the West seems to have very quickly forgotten and my books on Russia will show that I am not an the lessons of history. In Afghanistan in the 1980s, the uncritical friend of the country. Almost 20 years ago, I US and UK trained and armed the mujaheddin, including wrote that those who felt that Russia would follow the a certain Osama bin Laden. We are still suffering the path of western-style democracy and a market economy effects more than 30 years on. The US has spent were deluding themselves. I see the world how it is, not $500 million in a programme to aid Assad’s rebel how I would like it to be. enemies, with the result that just four or five US-trained There is scope for a political solution to the Syrian individuals are still in country, and some of the weapons conflict. Russia has no intention of turning it into that the US paid for ended up in the arms of ISIL, another Vietnam or even Afghanistan. It seeks an exit which is particularly barbaric, executing hundreds of strategy that maintains its bases and influence in Syria, people and beheading hostages—but other jihadi groups, the eastern Mediterranean and the wider Middle East. such as the al-Qaeda affiliated al-Nusra Front, which It has stepped into the vacuum created by the United operates in north-west Syria, are hardly benign. States, and it has genuine concern that the 4,000 The Syrian civil war has become a proxy war between citizens from the former Soviet Union fighting in the Shia Alawite-dominated Assad regime, backed by Syria do not return home to further stir up Islamist Shia Iran, Hezbollah and Russia, against Sunni rebels fundamentalism. President Putin and Foreign Minister backed by Sunni Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Qatar and Lavrov, at both the recent talks in Vienna and the the United States. In the mix are the Kurds, detested Valdai Discussion Club in Sochi, talked about having by the Turks but one of the most effective fighting broad discussions with all opposition groups to secure forces against the extremist Sunni ISIL. The allegiances a political settlement. They also asked for co-operation are fluid, both between jihadi and rebel groups and co-ordination from the West in the fight against ISIL. and their allies and opponents. To try to pick the It makes no sense, as the Times reported recently, to “good guys” in such a struggle is not an easy task. freeze out the Russians in the fight against our common Instead, the Government should make an effort to enemy ISIL by refusing to share intelligence or co-ordinate 1325 Syrian Refugees[29 OCTOBER 2015] Syrian Refugees 1326 air strikes against it. The Government should join a aid and UNICEF have provided and of our work in broad coalition to eradicate ISIL once and for all, and providing education. I was enormously impressed by that means working with Russia, Iran and the Kurds our DfID team in Jordan led by Jeff Tudor and by the to do so. I welcome the fact that Russia and Iran will international aid workers I met at Zaatari, especially be represented at tomorrow’s Vienna summit on Syria. the wonderful Hovig Etyemezian, the camp leader, but The Assad regime, whether we like it or not, as the however good our aid, and however talented our aid only effective opposition to ISIL on the ground, along workers, the people of Zaatari need hope, and that is with the Kurds, has to be part of the diplomatic talks in very short supply. to seek a political solution to the Syrian conflict. Many of the refugees had hoped that Daraa would On Tuesday, the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord fall and that they could return home, but that did not Bates, said: happen, and now the Russian intervention has led to “My noble friend is absolutely right about this. We are treating more uncertainty. The young with no access to higher the symptoms, but we need to address the cause, which is the education or training and no prospect of a job have a carnage that is happening in the wider Middle East and particularly stark choice: do they stay in the camp, do they return in Syria. A political solution has to be brought about by the home—as one refugee put it, to “live, or to die international community working together in harness”.—[Official quickly”—or do they set sail for Europe? Many of the Report, 27/10/15; cols. 1093-94.] younger ones are choosing the third option and starting I would like Her Majesty’s Government to be a bit to sell their land in Syria to raise the money to get to more proactive on that score. In any event, we should Europe. The provision of jobs is essential to stabilise prioritise the destruction of ISIL and the diplomatic the refugee population and curb the mass exodus to peace process. Only peace will stem the otherwise Europe, as is access to higher education and training, inevitable continuing flood of humanity from Syria but it has to be done without taking jobs away from and its neighbouring countries to our shores. local Jordanians. That is why the Prime Minister’s visit to the camps last month was so welcome and so timely 2.32 pm and why I hope that the talent that resides within Baroness Morris of Bolton (Con): My Lords, as the DfID will be addressing these problems. noble Lord, Lord Truscott, so vividly reminded us, the It is always easy to say we should do more, but I horrors in Syria continue. I am grateful to him for have been privileged to see just a tiny fragment of affording us another opportunity to look at what we what the British Government and the British people can do to help the people caught up in this are doing to support the Syrian refugees, alongside all prolonged and vicious sectarian war. I declare my our other commitments. We combine compassion with interests as the Prime Minister’s trade envoy to Jordan ingenuity and good common sense, and we can hold and the Palestinian territories and as president of our heads high and be proud of our contribution to Medical Aid for Palestinians. this heart-breaking situation. In our previous debate on the Syrian refugee crisis, I spoke of the desperate plight of the Palestinians of 2.36 pm Yarmouk camp caught between Daesh and Assad’s Lord Williams of Baglan (CB): My Lords, I commend forces, their only choice to stay and face near starvation the noble Lord, Lord Truscott, for obtaining this and typhoid in the camp, or to chance their fate with debate. Aleppo has tragically been the scene of some the people traffickers, although for many even that of the fiercest fighting of this war, which has destroyed horrific choice is unavailable as they simply do not an historic city which bears the marks of so many of have the funds to pay those evil people. The Minister the great civilisations of the past. The most sustained wrote following the debate, and I am most grateful to urban fighting of the brutal Syrian civil war has her for her thorough and thoughtful reply. I am divided the city between Bashar al-Assad’s forces in enormously grateful for the work of UK aid in addressing the central and western neighbourhoods and the Syrian the immediate need for food and blankets for those rebels, including various Islamist factions, such as fleeing the camp, and for the millions of pounds the Jabhat al-Nusra, in the eastern parts. Despite the city’s Government have allocated to UNRWA to help the strategic location only 50 kilometres from the Turkish Palestinian refugees affected by the violence in Syria. border and its role as a commercial hub, it is particularly Despite all this, their situation remains precarious, important to the conflict because the loss of the city and they really are some of the most vulnerable people would deal a substantial blow to the Assad regime. It in this whole sorry mess. I wonder whether it would be would entrench the demarcation line that has already possible for my noble friend to arrange a meeting with emerged between the interior areas and regime-controlled her and the Minister for Refugees, Richard Harrington, areas around Damascus and the Mediterranean coast, to discuss the Palestinians in Syria. where the Alawite minority is concentrated. I shall spend my last couple of minutes on the Because of the city’s importance, Aleppo’s civilian Syrian refugees in Jordan. The world owes Jordan and population has been subjected to severe and sometimes the other countries surrounding Syria a huge debt for indiscriminate violence from both sides of the conflict having so selflessly opened their borders to those in since mid-July 2012. This includes the regime’s infamous need. This has placed an enormous strain on their use of barrel bombs, which have claimed thousands of services and economies and that all-too-precious balance lives. As early as January 2014, the REACH Initiative, between helping others and looking after their own. a UN-affiliated group focusing on humanitarian action, On the third of this month I visited Zaatari camp in estimated that up to half a million people from the Jordan, which is situated just 10 kilometres from the eastern side of the city were displaced due to the Syrian border. I was proud of the new wells that UK random bombardment of opposition-held areas by 1327 Syrian Refugees[LORDS] Syrian Refugees 1328

[LORD WILLIAMS OF BAGLAN] most refugees. I have figures which suggest that it has regime forces and the lack of basic services in the city. taken 273,000 refugees this year—it is probably higher There are some estimates that, of the 1 million inhabitants than that now, two weeks later. However, there are of the eastern part of the city, only 40,000 remain. other islands in that area: Chios, Samos and Kos, Given the severity of the bombing of civilian targets, which have taken 45,000, 63,000 and 69,000 refugees will the Minister say what consideration the Government according to these figures. The figures suggest that have given to referring those acts to the International Leros has taken 26,500, and only three days ago it Criminal Court? took 730 in one day. People are being held up there The regime, Iran and Russia have largely focused by the bureaucratic necessity that is being put on their efforts over the past month on rebel groups in them to register, and the situation in those islands is northern and central Syria, including those which desperate. have received weapons from the US. The assault they From Greece, the refugees move on to Macedonia, launched against rebels south of Aleppo earlier this Croatia and now to Slovenia. These countries are month has allowed them to recapture some villages doing their very best to cope with the crisis within but has failed to substantively reopen the Aleppo- their borders; the crisis is nothing to do with them, it is Damascus highway. not their fault, yet they are having to cope. Hungary Tens of thousands of refugees have left Aleppo has put up borders and is behaving in a way which is alone. On a recent visit to Lebanon I was able to see at quite disgraceful for a member of the European Union. first hand what that small country has done in taking Croatia is trying to cope—they are building a new in over 1 million refugees, 42% of them children. In winter transit centre in Slavonski Brod as the desperately Lebanese schools they now teach Lebanese children in cold Balkan winters approach, but that will take only the morning and Syrian children in the afternoon, a 5,000 people. How many people are trying to cross level of generosity humbling compared to the position Europe now? Nobody knows, but we know that some of most European countries. I hesitate to make the half a million people have sought asylum in European comparison with what Europe has done or the UK, countries this year already—I do not know how many but could the Minister at least assure us that we will of those are Syrians, but very many of them are— continue to support Lebanon generously and consider including all those who are setting off from their intensifying our support for children and education camps in Turkey and trying to cross the Aegean. there? Those who get across successfully are crossing Greece, This war has raged now for more than four years. the Balkan countries and Austria, which is now talking Only with a political settlement can the refugee question of putting up fences. be finally addressed as it was in other post-conflict When my wife was looking at the internet to discover situations where I served in the 1990s, such as Cambodia for me what the situation is for people crossing Europe and the former Yugoslavia. In this context I warmly she came across an astonishing Facebook site, which I welcome the talks beginning tomorrow in Vienna between will put on the record for anybody who wants to look the United States and Russia, Iran and Saudi Arabia. at it. It is called People to People Solidarity: Southern/ The involvement of Iran and Saudi Arabia is absolutely South-East Europe. It is full of stories of people—not critical to advancing the cause of peace. Coming soon necessarily the refugees but people across Europe who after the nuclear agreement with Iran, it is encouraging are helping the refugees trying to cross Europe. People that the Government in Tehran are coming to the in this country are collecting, making and buying stuff negotiating table. Equally, Saudi Arabia is to be to send over there, which was the original purpose of commended for its willingness to sit with the Iranians, the site. Some are organising transport in vans, not to with whom it has been at odds for so many years. We Calais any longer but to Croatia, Slovenia and to must push for a negotiated settlement. I am pleased wherever they think it is necessary; other people are that the UK, together with Turkey, Germany, France flying to Greece and going to Lesbos. Some are volunteer and the Gulf states, is now attending. In this regard drivers, others are going to provide help and support can the Minister say whether the Government are for people, and others are medical people who are reviewing the level of representation that we have in going to give medical advice. There is a huge, spontaneous Tehran with a view to announcing a new ambassador movement in this country of people who are trying to soon? This would send an important signal and would help. further advance the possibilities of peace. However, one theme that comes across by reading the huge amount of experiences, questions and discussion 2.41 pm on this Facebook site is that there is a lack of Lord Greaves (LD): My Lords, it is a privilege to co-ordination, support and help for people trying to follow the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Baglan, and do their best. This at least is perhaps something the his very wise words. Government might look at doing rather better than they are doing at the moment. At present these people The great city of Aleppo was of course the beginning are on their own, doing their best, working together of the Silk Road but is now the beginning of a very and with some NGOs, and they appear to me to be different road for a large number of people who are getting no support and help from the Government. now—quite rightly, from their point of view—trying to get out and are moving to other countries, particularly Turkey, and on to Greece and perhaps Bulgaria. There 2.46 pm has been a lot of publicity recently about the position The Lord Bishop of Southwark: My Lords, I have in Lesbos. That is not surprising, because of the Greek the honour to be a patron of the charity Embrace the islands just off the Turkish coast, Lesbos has taken the Middle East and visited Syria in May of last year for 1329 Syrian Refugees[29 OCTOBER 2015] Syrian Refugees 1330 the enthronement of the Syrian Orthodox Patriarch, reflect the trauma of this avoidable tragedy. A recent His Holiness Aphrem II, at Maarat Saidnaya, just study by the University of Saint Joseph shows that in outside Damascus. Lebanon 24% of Syrian refugees are getting married I thank the noble Lord, Lord Truscott, for giving before they are 18 and are becoming more vulnerable your Lordships the opportunity to discuss this pressing as a result. matter. With over half its population displaced, Syria Secondly, parishes and churches in this country are is now a land of the dispossessed, and we are looking continuing to support a range of charities and mission at a topography of dust, rubble and dried blood. This agencies at work in the region, including Christian is the land where we read in Acts that the designation Aid’s Syria emergency appeal. The Jesuit Refugee Christian was first used but where all minorities are Service may well be the largest Christian organisation now especially vulnerable in the particular context of working in and around Syria, serving, by its own the destabilisation of the state. We are witnessing a estimates, nearly half a million people in the region. humanitarian disaster in slow motion, with repercussions Our sister church, the Episcopal Church in Jerusalem which are impacting on many nations including our and the Middle East, is also active in Jordan and own. Lebanon, supported by the British charity Jerusalem Some in your Lordships’ House can speak with and the Middle East Church Association. more expertise than me on diplomatic process, military I recognise that mass resettlement is neither possible options and geopolitics. Noble Lords will know of the nor desirable. The English bishops share the concern Bishops’ letter to the Prime Minister, which called for of the Melkite Archbishop of Aleppo but also distinguish a more generous response on the number of refugees themselves from him on a number of points. from the Syrian conflict who will come to this country In conclusion, I have a few questions for the Minister. during the life of this Parliament. Today, however, I First, I note that the Home Secretary, speaking at the will concentrate on two areas only. One is the condition Conservative Party conference, made a commitment of the refugee camps in the countries bordering to community sponsorship schemes to bring refugees Syria and the second is the role that development to the UK. It would be good to know from the noble agencies and churches are playing in the region and Baroness in what way this is being taken forward. I within Syria itself. trust that Her Majesty’s Government will persist in I pay tribute to Her Majesty’s Government for their their generosity in this crisis. The United Nations’ financial commitment, which in bilateral terms is second humanitarian summit in 2016 may prove such an only to that of the United States, which is a far larger opportunity, not least in seeking to restore some sense economy. Indeed, UK government aid to Syria is of international order in dealings with refugees. I significantly ahead of our European partners, although would therefore also be glad to know from the Minister of course the refusal to work with other European what steps are being taken to use that summit early Governments with regard to the migrants now in next year to regalvanise the international community’s Europe significantly reduces their authority in encouraging commitment to refugee protection and support. Lastly, others to help with aid in the region. I do not say that what steps are being taken to reverse the declining Her Majesty’s Government cannot do more, but it has mobilisation of funding for the UN humanitarian effort? done a great deal through DfID to help to meet the immediate needs of vulnerable people in Syria and of 2.52 pm refugees in the region, although it needs to be noted Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne (LD): I thank that the UK’s investment overseas in aid will decrease the noble Lord, Lord Truscott, for giving us the given the Government’s decision to use the aid budget opportunity to speak in this highly important debate. I to meet the costs of the 20,000 Syrian refugees to be also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Verma, for the brought to this country. Nevertheless, there is a pressing extraordinary work that her department has been diplomatic need for the Government to pursue: it is undertaking. In my remarks I will focus not on aid but for our European and international partners to invest on some of the other broader issues, so perhaps if the more heavily in aid to the region in a way they have not Minister cannot answer me without a departmental done before. Why? The answer is simply that life in the input immediately, she can ensure that written answers refugee camps is not sustainable on the current levels are provided to me. of funding. No amount of resettlement will mitigate My first question is a very simple one. What are the continued failure of the international community Her Majesty’s Government’s plans for the aftermath to address the refugee crisis at source. The United of the current violence in Syria? We are faced with a Nations High Commissioner for Refugees has calculated society that, for whatever reason, has disintegrated. that for what was needed in the way of humanitarian The international record of rebuilding societies in the aid, in three successive years the amount raised fell—from Middle East and north Africa is not a good one. I 71% in 2013 to 57% in 2014 and to a mere 37% by would single out the United Nations, which, despite its October this year. immense attitude of well-meaning for the public good, What will Syria’s youth, when they are old, tell their is essentially powerless—people can just choose not to children about this conflict? They will talk of cowering obey it. Sometimes the United Nations’ concepts in in flimsy houses while watching the regime’s barrel the region seem to be almost wholly unrealistic. I bombs fall, of watching beheadings and crucifixions recall with pain and grief the first election in Afghanistan. of family members at the hands of ISIS, of payment The enormous complexity of the electoral system that of the extortionate jizya tax as humiliated minorities, of the UN itself put forward was such that, when I the deadening existence in refugee camps and of hazardous invited the UN to comment on it privately—I was journeys to foreign lands. All will have stories that monitoring the election—I was told that it was a 1331 Syrian Refugees[LORDS] Syrian Refugees 1332

[BARONESS NICHOLSON OF WINTERBOURNE] debate. It is extremely timely, with the tragedy that has system that had never been tested anywhere in any been laid out so clearly in the speeches that we have democracy in the globe, yet it had been put in a already heard. I agreed with most of them wholeheartedly, country that had never had democracy in its entire particularly those that set out the tragic statistics of history. So the record of the United Nations in rebuilding this later stage—the refugees, the deaths and so on—and disintegrated societies in this region is not a desperately the great tragedy of the disintegration of Syria, which good one. has always been a very great country. Therefore, it That leaves us with the coalition. I do not think that behoves us all to think very seriously about how we the different coalitions have proved adequate for this resolve these matters. particularly complex and difficult task. You have only I am also saddened by looking back at the examples to look at Yemen collapsing, as it is, or at Libya. of how the West has miscalculated so much on these Indeed, there are other nations in the region and foreign policy initiatives in the Middle East and elsewhere, elsewhere where coalitions which come together to try but mainly, and tragically, in the Middle East itself. I to create peace are not equipped to rebuild a society. A am going back a long way now and thinking about the good example of how that can be done is the European 1 million, or maybe even 1.5 million, people marching Union enlargement process. It is highly detailed and down Piccadilly to object to the Iraq war. I was one of long-running, and is very descriptive of what should them. There is a notion that there was another motive happen. I ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans behind the war and not just the ones that were stated we have for rebuilding Syria when the aftermath of at the time. Regime change was hinted at last week by violence has calmed. We must remember that the a very prominent international figure who used to be military make the space, but the question is: who will the Prime Minister of this country. That, as we know, fill that space? Whom are we planning to put into that is illegal under international law unless it is certificated space? I suggest that the only people who could really in advance by the United Nations through the appropriate rebuild the society are the people themselves. machinery and resolutions. That did not happen in I come to my second question. I had the opportunity that case. Saddam Hussein before then had invaded recently to bring over to the United Kingdom three Kuwait and quite rightly was expelled by the international Yazidi victims. Mercifully, thanks to the good efforts community, with the United Nations leading the way, of Germany, they are now in Germany or on their way a year later. I am a life-long admirer of the state of there. Why are Her Majesty’s Government looking Israel, but I find it rather peculiar, in contrast, that solely at Syrians? As I said a year and a half ago in a Israel is still in Palestine, 50 years after the 1967 war, speech to your Lordships’ House, it would appear that because of the way in which the United States has genocide is being carried out against the Yazidis. Last allowed that to happen and international law to be night I was at the service in Westminster Abbey for the violated in that way by the key democracy in the Armenian martyrs. We have a huge track record in Middle East, which is Israel. Britain of picking up those who suffer from genocide. None the less, we look now at the results of the I ask Her Majesty’s Government very seriously: why West’s mistakes in Iraq and what happened there. not the Yazidis? It will be very difficult for them to Whether the eventual judicial murder of Saddam Hussein return to any former home once the calming has taken was right or wrong is a very interesting question and a place, as we anticipate it will. difficult one to answer properly. The situation in Syria My final question is a very simple one. In Germany is that Assad is still in power. Even if one finds a there is a huge programme for the integration of regime obnoxious and the leader of that regime even refugees as they arrive. The Yazidi victims—the young more obnoxious—people have different views on that—it ladies whom I hosted here—were in German language is not for the West to determine who is in charge of classes within a week of arriving there. They have running a country or how a country is run; that is for futures: they may well go to university, and they are the United Nations to determine. Look at the situation being offered training, jobs and skills development. I in Libya. Again, having had a friendship agreement saw a similar excellent programme recently in Utah, with Gaddafi, he was then killed by his opponents in America, called Pathway. It is run by LDS Charities, Libya, which was regarded by many as a good thing. headed up by Sharon Eubank. It is a non-governmental But is it a good thing when those countries are now programme and does not take any national or local broken countries? They are not operating properly at government funding. What plans do Her Majesty’s all, and that is partly the responsibility of the West, led Government have for the real integration of the refugees by the United States, which has made many mistakes whom we take here? I believe that the plans should be in the Middle East. Thank goodness that now, at long transparent and open, and I firmly believe that the last, the United States has agreed to let Iran attend the plans for reintegrating institutions, civil society and a conference. It took a long time to be persuaded, but community in Syria should be just as open and now Iran and other parties essential to this will be transparent. May we have sight of those plans now? I there to try to resolve the problem. urge the Minister to speak. I believe that the problem can be resolved, but only with a different approach. Church leaders, and Christian 2.58 pm Aid’s excellent memorandum on the subject, called Lord Dykes (Non-Afl): My Lords, it is a great this approach an “inclusive peace gathering” to achieve pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Nicholson, peace in Syria. It cannot be selective, with some people and her very wise words. I agree with a lot that she has excluded and others included. That is a great mistake said. Above all, I warmly thank the noble Lord, Lord in the West, and the more we do it, the more mistakes Truscott, for taking the initiative in launching this we make. It must be put to an end now. 1333 Syrian Refugees[29 OCTOBER 2015] Syrian Refugees 1334

I make my final request to the Government, echoing course has to be by a multilateral approach, and what the noble Baroness, Lady Nicholson, said: we certainly we need to include the Iranians, the Saudis, must be more generous in taking more Syrian refugees the other Gulf states and the Russians. As a country, than the figures that were enunciated for the five-year we need to approach it in the way that we approached period to 2020. In comparison with other European our negotiations with Iran—as the E3. That was very countries, this is a very niggardly number. Once again, effective, with William Hague, his French and German church leaders are quite right in saying that the number counterparts, and the European Union special should be at least doubled, and perhaps more than representative working multilaterally. that. There is a lot that we can do to resolve the This morning, I heard Kate Hoey on the “Today” situation with humanity and common sense. programme say that the one thing in which we do not want anything to do with our western European partners 3.02 pm is foreign policy co-operation. Frankly, without foreign Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD): My Lords, I was a policy co-operation, we will not get anywhere. In the little puzzled by the introduction from the noble Lord, Middle East we have to work with our neighbours and Lord Truscott, to a debate on the strategy for tackling our partners and say to them that they should be the refugee crisis, in the light of the current violence in contributing more financially to the immediate effort Aleppo. It seemed to me that he focused on the Russian for the refugees, but we have to work with them also in narrative of how the conflict began and how we had to trying to build a multinational coalition. accept the Russian terms for resolving the conflict. An immediate concern has to be the refugees. We have to anticipate that it will get worse next spring and Lord Truscott: I hate to intervene, but my point was summer. We have to attempt to persuade the Russians that, in analysing the situation, we really should be that what they are doing—assisting the Syrian state to looking at dealing with the causes rather than the destroy those parts of Syria that have not yet been symptoms. destroyed—is absolutely wrong-headed. Let us remember that ISIL now controls the most thinly inhabited parts of Syria. The areas that are being fought over by the Lord Wallace of Saltaire: We will leave that to one other non-ISIL rebels and the state are the heavily side. I simply say that I do not accept his interpretation inhabited parts. Beyond that, we have to attempt to of the origins of the conflict. negotiate with the major Middle East states, as well as On the immediate crisis, we see that Aleppo, the with the Turks, the Russians and the others, to find a largest city, is now being substantially destroyed by solution that will not be easy to reach. barrel bombs dropped by the Syrian Government in Russian-made helicopters and by Russian planes that are bombing rebel forces in Aleppo and not ISIL. We 3.07 pm know that that is going to lead to a further surge of Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab): My Lords, I, too, refugees leaving the country. The weather is now turning thank the noble Lord, Lord Truscott, for initiating worse—I am told that the temperature in Damascus this timely debate, especially with international talks and Aleppo goes down to minus 10 degrees or lower in resuming in Vienna today and with Iran joining them winter—and there is no heating. They will try to get to tomorrow. Europe, and many more will die on the way because it The Syria war has killed a quarter of a million will be cold, and next summer, we will face a very large people, contributed to the biggest refugee crisis since surge. That is the immediate issue and concern for us. World War II and become a breeding ground for As some of us were saying to the Russian ambassador Islamic State and other extremist groups that threaten last week, “We have interests in what you do in this not only Syria but its neighbours and all the powers conflict, because the refugees will not try to get to the supporting one side or the other. Desperate conditions Crimea; they will try to get to Europe”. in the refugee camps are driving more and more to risk That is where our immediate concerns have to be their own lives and that of their families to reach and we have to deal multilaterally with all the other Europe. actors in the conflict: supporting the Lebanese and the But, as we have heard others ask, what of the Jordanians; encouraging the Turks—whatever is strategy? A June summit resulted in a voluntary agreement happening in Turkish politics—to maintain their to relocate 40,000 asylum seekers from front-line states. assistance; and saying to the Saudis and the Gulf August saw the western Balkans emerge as the route states that they also have to accept their share of the from southern to northern Europe. The Vienna summit responsibility and their contribution to a multilateral of regional leaders did little to prevent Hungary and solution. Macedonia unilaterally stopping migrants from crossing The violence that the Syrian state has conducted their borders. In September, there were two more against its citizens is horrifying. When I saw pictures summits, at which a majority vote finally pushed through of Yarmouk, a part of Damascus that I visited seven the use of mandatory quotas to relocate 160,000 asylum years ago, and how appallingly it now has been almost seekers from Greece and Italy to other member states completely destroyed, I was horrified that a state over two years. There were also pledges of more aid could do that to its own citizens. for regional responses to the Syrian crisis, particularly The question is: how do we begin to work towards a in Turkey—the main launch point, as we have heard, situation in which we resolve this conflict, before Syria for Syrian refugees trying to reach Europe. This month, becomes a country in which only a very small minority October, EU leaders backed an action plan to offer of its 22 million people feel it is safe to live? It of Turkey various incentives in return for its co-operation 1335 Syrian Refugees[LORDS] Syrian Refugees 1336

[LORD COLLINS OF HIGHBURY] substantial improvements in co-ordination which have in stemming the numbers of migrants and refugees saved lives over the past year. We have also co-sponsored boarding boats for Europe from its coast. Next month and lobbied hard for UN Security Council Resolutions will see the major summit in Valletta, in Malta, which 2165 and 2191, which have enabled the UN to deliver will focus on gaining more co-operation from key aid across borders without the consent of the regime. origin and transit countries, particularly in Africa. By 30 September this year, the UN and its partners What sort of agreement with the African countries had delivered 189 convoys of aid across the border does the Minister hope will come out of Valletta? since the adoption of Resolution 2165 in July 2014. What incentives and support will be given in return if These convoys of aid have helped to provide food, one is achieved? blankets, water kits and vital medical supplies to thousands I, too, pay tribute to the support provided to the of people in Syria. refugee camps in Jordan, Lebanon and Turkey, but Furthermore, the UK continues to play a leading clearly we need to apply pressure on other European role in encouraging the international community to countries to increase spending so that the current cuts make generous pledges in response to the humanitarian to the World Food Programme budget are halted. crisis. We have lobbied hard and mobilised funding Britain is the biggest donor, but this effort needs to be from other donors ahead of the third Kuwait pledging matched by other EU countries in order to provide conference in March, which raised $3.6 billion. Now adequate financial assistance. Perhaps the Minister we are exploring with the UN and other major donors can outline what the Government are doing to encourage how best to ensure that the momentum on fundraising other donor countries to give their fair share in addressing is maintained over a longer period, which the noble the refugee crisis. Lord, Lord Collins, asked about. Finally, as we have heard in the debate, the Prime Longer term, Syria needs hope and opportunities. Minister told the other place in September that the UK To increase Syrians’ prospects of being able to stay in will now accept 20,000 Syrian refugees, but over the the region close to home, specifically we need to give course of this Parliament. The crisis is getting deeper Syrian children education and the adults the chance to and deeper. In light of the deteriorating weather conditions earn a living. That is why the UK helped to launch and in Lebanon, how many refugees do the Government continues to support UNICEF’s No Lost Generation plan to take from the camps before Christmas? initiative to provide education protection and psychosocial support for children affected by the crisis. 3.10 pm We are also scaling up our support for longer-term The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department stability and resilience-building work inside Syria and for International Development (Baroness Verma) (Con): neighbouring countries, which the noble Baroness, I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Truscott, for securing Lady Nicholson, asked about. It is not just about the this debate and all noble Lords for their contributions. now, but about the rebuilding once this crisis is resolved— It is a short debate, but it has been a very well-informed sooner rather than later, we hope. We want to make one. We could have spent much longer discussing the sure that we help to expand job and education issues that we all feel so passionately about. The noble opportunities for refugees and assist with the impact Lord, Lord Truscott, has pointed out a number of on local services. All that requires a long-term sustained things that DfID and the UK Government are doing and scaled-up commitment from donors. but, as with all these things, it is good and right that we remind ourselves that as a country we have taken the The conflict in Syria has intensified in recent weeks lead in many areas in ensuring that we persuade others with major regime offensives on several fronts, with to make their mark to try to help those who live in such Russian air support. One such front is Aleppo, as the terrible conditions, as the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, noble Lord, Lord Truscott, identified. Hundreds of said. thousands of people living in areas under the control In Syria and the region, the Syrian conflict has of armed opposition groups are at risk of displacement. taken a terrible toll. The humanitarian crisis has reached The United Nations and NGO partners are reviewing catastrophic proportions. The UN estimates that and revising the Aleppo contingency plan. A negotiated 13.5 million people are in need of humanitarian assistance political settlement in Syria has never been more pressing. and almost 4.2 million refugees are in neighbouring The worsening conflict has already led to hundreds of countries. The UK has a proud record of leadership thousands of people being killed, and left millions in on the response to the Syrian crisis. As has been need and displaced from their homes. It has created pointed out by a number of noble Lords, we have space for extremism to spread through the region and pledged more than £1.1 billion to date. That is our beyond. Political transition by mutual agreement of largest response to a single humanitarian crisis. Again, the Syrian parties, supported by the international as was rightly pointed out, we are the second-largest community, remains the only way to bring about bilateral donor after the US. By the end of June 2015, sustainable peace in Syria. our support in Syria and the region has delivered The UK’s vision for Syria is for an open democratic almost 20 million food rations. Each ration feeds one society with greater social, economic and political person for up to a month. We have provided more participation, where violent extremism does not have a than 2.5 million medical consultations and access to place and where refugees will feel safe to return. To clean water for 1.6 million people in Syria. that end, the UK has committed more than £84.5 million We have been at the forefront of efforts to push the to support governance, security and livelihoods in United Nations and other agencies to co-ordinate Syria and the region. In particular, we have trained better and deliver more effectively. There have been and equipped civil defence teams to carry out search 1337 Syrian Refugees[29 OCTOBER 2015] Prisons: Young People 1338 and rescue operations, trained Syrian journalists and Food Programme. As I stated earlier, we are the second- activists to help develop an independent Syrian media, largest donor to this programme. Since the start of the and funded local-level peacebuilding projects within crisis, we have committed £227 million to provide food Syria and between communities in neighbouring countries support in Syria and the region, but we acknowledge where refugees are based. We are also supporting the that the needs continue to grow and that the UN Free Syrian Police, which is responsible for providing World Food Programme is underfunded. We will be basic civilian policing in large areas of opposition- working to secure more funding with our partners, but controlled territory. we know that we need to direct what we are delivering into the areas where it is most needed and encourage A great range of questions has been asked today. I others to do the same. The noble Lord also asked me will endeavour in the remaining five minutes or so to how many people we will have taken in by Christmas. I answer as many as I can. However, in the event that I think that the number in my brief is 1,000, but I will do not, I undertake to write to all noble Lords and correct it if it is not. place copies of those letters in the Library. I have run out of time and I still have a huge bundle The noble Lord, Lord Truscott, said that the emphasis of questions to go through. I apologise that I have not should be on a political solution. I could not agree been able to answer them all, but I think that we all more. A negotiated transition in the Syria area is the realise that a transition away from Assad to a more only way to end the conflict and alleviate the humanitarian inclusive Government who can represent everyone is crisis. Political dialogue remains active between the what we envisage the Geneva process delivering. We UN and the international community, but we have to will continue to work with our international partners make sure that those who are in this conflict do not and, as I said earlier, I undertake to write to all noble add to the complexity. That is why, as the noble Lord, Lords. Lord Wallace of Saltaire, said, it is really important that debates and discussions are held collectively with a common goal of peace for the people in that region. Prisons: Young People Ending the conflict in Syria and addressing the national Motion to Take Note security threats posed to us from there will of course take time, resolve and determination. Defending our 3.23 pm national security means that in Syria we must support Moved by Lord Harris of Haringey moderate groups and tackle extremists and the drivers of extremism. That does mean tackling ISIL directly, To move that this House takes note of the case as we and our allies are doing, and there is a case, of for taking action to address the problems of young course, for doing more. In parallel with that, we must people before they enter the criminal justice system put pressure on Assad. We need to build the conditions in order to reduce the prison population, improve for political settlement and a Government who can conditions within prison, and focus on the rehabilitation represent all Syrians. The only way that will happen is of prisoners, as set out in The Harris Review: if we work together to undermine the extremists and Changing Prisons, Saving Lives. defeat ISIL in the long run. Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab): My Lords, I am I know that my noble friend Lady Morris is incredibly pleased to have the opportunity to introduce this passionate about her work. She asked a number of debate. I should make it clear that this is not out of questions about what she has seen being done with any sense of self-promotion, but because I believe that Palestinians in Syria. As my noble friend is aware, we the issues raised by the independent review that I led have been supporting the United Nations Relief and are so important. Indeed, I believe that they are important Works Agency and other UN partners for Palestinian for the Government, because as they wrestle with the refugees in the Near East to ensure that the needs of comprehensive spending review, they need to recognise highly vulnerable Palestinians are addressed both within that prison is a hugely expensive intervention and yet Syria and in neighbouring countries. To date, the UK the benefits of this spend are questionable. It has a has allocated approximately £59 million to UNRWA relatively low impact on crime, and indeed rates of to provide food parcels, relief items, hygiene packs, reoffending are high, particularly among young adults. education and cash assistance for Palestinian refugees affected by the violence. She asked if I would agree to Last year, I and my team were commissioned by the a meeting with herself, a group from the Refugee then Minister for Prisons to review the 83 self-inflicted Council and Richard Harrington MP. I am happy to deaths of young people in prison from April 2007 to do so and I will ask my office to contact her directly to the end of 2013. We also looked at the deaths of the put the meeting in place. four under-18s who died in the same period. Uppermost in our minds throughout the exercise was that every As is the way with these things, I am running out of single one of the young people who died and whose time so I need to gallop on a little to address a few cases we examined was someone’s son or daughter, more questions. The noble Lord, Lord Collins, asked sister or brother, partner or even parent. Each of the about our support for Turkey. We have allocated deaths represents a failure by the state to protect the £34 million for programmes supporting Syrian refugees, young people concerned, which is a breach of Article 2 including the provision of food, shelter and primary of the European Convention on Human Rights. It is a healthcare, and we are working in partnership with failure by the state which is all the greater because the multiple Turkish institutions on targeted projects in same criticisms occur time and time again. Lessons order to build capacity to target irregular migration. have not been learned and not enough has been done He also asked about the cuts made to the UN World over the years to bring about substantive change. 1339 Prisons: Young People[LORDS] Prisons: Young People 1340

[LORD HARRIS OF HARINGEY] intervention. Our conclusion was that there must be a We considered an enormous volume of evidence commitment to support vulnerable young people before that included submissions from 54 organisations and and after their contact with the criminal justice system, individuals. We conducted 26 hearings and consulted and the objective of policy must be to assist them to senior experts through a series of meetings and seminars. become productive citizens. We visited prisons and young offender institutions, I am pleased, therefore, at the hints that have been spending time at each one listening to the views of dropped by the Secretary of State for Justice that this young prisoners themselves. The excellent charity is the direction of travel that he wants to follow, but on INQUEST, which does so much valuable work supporting Monday our review will have been with the Ministry people who have had a loved one die in the custody of of Justice for seven months, and even now there is still the state, helpfully organised for us two listening days no sign of the Government’s response. Last week, the with the families of those who had died. We surveyed grandly titled Ministerial Board on Deaths in Custody young adults in institutions and received 50 audio met, but apparently it did not have the time to discuss submissions from prisoners following broadcasts that the review at that meeting. Indeed, the review has yet I made on National Prison Radio. Then there was the to be presented to it, let alone considered. I know that detailed examination of the 87 cases themselves. the review raises some difficult issues and I know that Our conclusion was that all young adults in custody the National Offender Management Service is extremely are vulnerable. Some had led chaotic lives and had defensive about some of its findings, but if the complex histories, while others had been subjected to Government do not act decisively, the distressing cases child abuse, or had been exposed to violence or repeated we considered will be repeated and more young lives bereavement. Many had been in foster or residential will be wasted. care, and often their problems had been further Indeed, there is already evidence of backwards compounded by mental health issues. In the 87 cases movement. NOMS has been reviewing the ACCT we examined, many of the young people’s problems process—the existing arrangements for addressing the and vulnerabilities, including their mental health issues, needs of those considered to be at risk of self-inflicted had been evident from an early age. Why did so many death. The NOMS conclusion, I am told, is that these of them end up in custody? arrangements are overused and that it should be easier Billy Spiller was 21 when he died in prison in to take a prisoner off the process. Presumably this is November 2011. His mother said: intended to save money, but it runs directly against the “Throughout Billy’s life I tried to get proper care and support research that was done for us on the clinical reviews of for him but all the doors were shut in my face. From the moment those who had died, which found that in many cases he was sentenced to imprisonment, I knew that they wouldn’t be the young people had been taken off the ACCT process able to look after him. They should have diverted him from the prematurely or inappropriately. courts or made sure that everybody in the prison had training to deal with him”. Let us be clear: prisons and young offender institutions are grim environments, bleak and demoralising to the The same mistakes have been repeated time and time spirit. The experience of living in a prison or a young again. Nicholas Saunders was 18 when he died in offender institution is not conducive to rehabilitation. April 2011. The pre-sentence review had recommended What is more, when this is coupled with the current a community disposal but the judge decided that impoverished regimes caused by staff shortages—a prison was the best option for him. The documents situation that can only get worse with the likely budget describing his vulnerability and a previous suicide cuts that the Chancellor will impose in a month’s attempt were not transferred with him when he was time—it makes the experience particularly damaging moved from HMP Woodhill to HMYOI Stoke Heath, to developing young adults who are in those institutions. where six weeks after the transfer he was found hanging in his cell from a ligature attached to a light fitting—despite It was clear to us also that young adults in prison a similar suicide, also from a light fitting, at the same are not sufficiently engaged in purposeful activity and establishment just a few years earlier. that their time is not spent in a constructive and valuable way. Indeed, the current restricted regimes In an earlier case, Joseph Scholes was 16 when he that we observed—again because of staff shortages—do died in 2002. He had a long history of vulnerability, not even allow for the delivery of planned core day repeatedly told staff he would kill himself, and was activities that might help rehabilitation. We came across never seen by a psychiatrist. When he did make a repeated examples of medical and mental health noose from a bed-sheet and hang himself from the appointments being missed because there were insufficient bars of his cell, he left a message for his mother and staff to escort the patient—the prisoner—from their father telling them he could not cope and that: cell to the medical practitioner. “I tried telling them and they just don’t fucking listen”. There needs to be a fundamental shift in the philosophy We have heard the same stories time and time again of prison. We recommended a new statement on the over the past 13 years, and the cases do not stop purpose of prison: its primary purpose should be coming. There were 69 self-inflicted deaths in the first rehabilitation, along with keeping prisoners and the nine months of this year alone, and 12 of those were public safe and secure. This will require leadership and of young people under the age of 24. that must start with Ministers. There are no simple and easy solutions to such Leadership in individual establishments is also critical. deaths, but the weight of evidence shows the need to In some prisons, the governors have a positive vision look broadly at the reasons for the deaths and how of what they are trying to do, and that feeds through they might have been prevented by much earlier the culture of the entire prison. In others, the governors 1341 Prisons: Young People[29 OCTOBER 2015] Prisons: Young People 1342 say all the right things, but they are not borne out by effective alternatives to custody if they do get into what you see as you go round the prison. As young trouble, will be money well spent and will reduce the prisoners said to us on at least one occasion, “It’s all numbers in prison so as to enable better support and different when the governor is on the wing”. And there rehabilitative efforts for those who do become prisoners. are some prisons where the governors are completely Delaying action until the resource position is easier overwhelmed by the administrative and managerial is not an option. It would mean young people continuing challenges that they face, so that concern for the to die unnecessarily in our prisons and we will continue welfare of individual prisoners seems to have been to waste countless millions of pounds on failing to crowded out. rehabilitate those who could be rehabilitated, locking There is a disconnect between what those in charge up those for whom a non-prison option would be think should be happening and what actually goes on more appropriate, and failing to intervene early enough in individual prisons. NOMS Prison Service instructions to prevent people entering the criminal justice system are by and large sound and, if implemented, would in the first place. Our proposals were rooted in the deliver good practice, but there is a yawning chasm impressive body of evidence we received and considered. between what they contain and what happens in practice. We recognise that they involve substantial changes There are also some ominous gaps. In many of the and a significant shift in approach, but they are changes 87 cases examined, the vulnerable young adults were that are urgently needed if the waste of resource that is going through a period of particular distress that our present penal policy is to be stemmed and if—even might have passed if they had not been spending so more importantly—the tragic preventable loss of young much time locked inside their cells with nothing to do lives is to be halted. Those who ignore the lessons of other than stare at potential ligature attachment points. past failure are condemned to repeat them. That will But NOMS centrally does not know how many functional be the fate of policymakers who fail to act on these safer cells—those where ligature attachment points recommendations. The 87 tragic cases considered by have been by and large removed—exist in individual our review deserve as their memorial that this time it establishments because it does not collect the data. must be different. We owe them no less. I beg to move. Nor does NOMS know—again, because it does not collect the data—how many hours prisoners spend out 3.39 pm of their cells on purposeful activity. There are other Lord Dholakia (LD): My Lords, I am delighted to omissions. Frankly, we found it surprising that NOMS take part in this debate and to lend my support to the does not have a discrete policy on bullying or on the recommendations made by the noble Lord, Lord Harris, management of gangs. and his team. So there are issues of leadership and issues of This is an outstanding report dealing with self-inflicted policy, but then there is the question of who takes deaths of young people in custody. Like many serious responsibility for the individual prisoner and her or and persistent young offenders, the young people his journey through the prison. A central recommendation concerned—as the noble Lord, Lord Harris, identified— of our review was that the prison workforce needs to often had a combination of problems and experiences be trained and developed to a higher professional such as physical or sexual abuse, family conflict, parental standard. There should be a new role: we called it the neglect, traumatic loss, exclusion from schools, drugs custody and rehabilitation officer, who would take or alcohol misuse or mental health problems. I have personal responsibility for the health, education, social highlighted these factors in previous debates; almost care, safety and rehabilitation needs of each individual all the research that I have studied points to these prisoner. These officers would be suitably trained factors, so I am saying nothing new. However, how we professionals with a small enough caseload—we were deal with such issues has a direct impact on the thinking 15 to 20—that they would know the individual criminal justice system. prisoners well, would deliver the right package of I declare an interest. I am president of Nacro, services to assess their needs and deliver their support formerly the National Association for the Care and and rehabilitation. Resettlement of Offenders. Its mission is to positively change lives, strengthen communities, enhance social Our central message was that much more needs to inclusion, reduce crime and prevent new offending be done to support young adults not only after they behaviour. All available evidence points to the fact come into contact with the criminal justice system but that young adults require a distinct approach that before they ever get into trouble. I repeat: these are takes into account their unique needs and vulnerabilities. young people whose problems have been evident from The current strategy is grossly inadequate; for example, an early age, so why was nothing done long before there is no specific system-wide provision for young they ended up in custody? adults, and the lack of provision for young women We looked at the work of the Government’s troubled and minority-ethnic young adults is even more evident. families programme, which concentrates the efforts of The noble Lord, Lord Harris, rightly argued that all public agencies to resolve the problems of families tackling this problem requires a wide-ranging strategy, whose problems, if left unresolved, are a drain on the an approach I fully endorse. We need to ensure that state’s resources. Why is it not possible to adopt a vulnerable young people are diverted from the criminal similar approach to the needs of troubled adolescents? justice system wherever possible, that custody is used Reinvestment and redirection of resources to the health for young offenders only when absolutely essential, and welfare system to resolve the issues creating problems and that custodial regimes can provide young people for the troubled child or adolescent before they ever with care, support and rehabilitation that takes the enter the criminal justice system, or investment in particular needs of this age group into account. 1343 Prisons: Young People[LORDS] Prisons: Young People 1344

[LORD DHOLAKIA] many young people and impoverishes regimes for The Government should adopt the same approach those young people who genuinely need to be in custody. for young adult offenders aged 18 to 24 as that for I have repeatedly urged successive Governments to under-18s, which has produced a significant fall in the legislate to make sentencing guidelines that take into number of juvenile offenders in custody in recent account the capacity of the prison system. This proposal years. This is not science; it is common sense. For was first made by the Carter report on the prison example, the Sentencing Council could be asked to system in 2007 and it still makes sense. At a time when produce a set of overarching principles for sentencing all other parts of the criminal justice system have to young adults, similar to the old Sentencing Guidelines work within the reality of limited resources, there is no Council’s principles for sentencing juveniles, which reason why sentencers should be exempt. helped to create a climate in which significantly fewer Reducing the number of young adults who are juveniles were sentenced to custody. Measures such as unnecessarily imprisoned would enable the Prison Service the restorative caution and the referral order, which to provide more constructive and caring regimes for a have worked well for juvenile offenders, could be extended smaller number of young prisoners. These regimes to young adults. The Government could set targets for should include increased opportunities for work, training reducing first-time entrants to the young adult criminal and education, as well as healthcare provision that is justice system, similar to those which helped to increase at least equal to that in the outside community. the diversion of juveniles from the youth justice process. It is particularly important that the Government They could also set targets to reduce the number of should implement the proposal by the noble Lord, young adults entering custody, as the Youth Justice Lord Harris, for young adult prisoners to have a Board did for juveniles. The intensive alternative to suitably trained custody and rehabilitation officer with custody sentence for young adults, which was successfully a small enough caseload to give adequate support to piloted a few years ago in Manchester, could be introduced vulnerable young people. As the noble Lord’s report nationwide. proposes, young prisoners should also have individual The noble Lord, Lord McNally, chairman of the custody plans based on a multidisciplinary assessment Youth Justice Board, should take credit. The Youth project. Justice Board is one of the few success stories in the Above all, we need a determined and co-ordinated criminal justice field. He will not thank me, but let us strategy from central government to ensure that everything work to increase his workload by ensuring that these humanly possible will be done to avoid the tragic and nationwide objectives are also implemented for young all-too-often avoidable deaths of so many vulnerable adults. Unless we take measures of this kind, it will be young people in custody. Any nation that aspires to very difficult for overstretched prisons to provide the civilised values must surely treat this as an overriding regimes that vulnerable young adults need. moral priority. In almost all previous debates on this matter, I have argued that far too many young adults are still being 3.48 pm put into custody for short sentences that serve little purpose. They are too short for sustained rehabilitation Lord Phillips of Worth Matravers (CB): My Lords, programmes, but they are long enough for young I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, people to lose jobs and accommodation and to weaken and his panel on their most impressive and wide-ranging their family ties—all of which makes them more likely review. It makes harrowing reading, particularly the to reoffend. This is a root cause of the repeat offending individual case studies. These are young people whom our that clogs up our criminal justice system and our society failed. There is evidence in the individual cases prisons. Many offenders return to prison repeatedly, in of failure to take steps that might have prevented their a pointless and depressing revolving-door process. deaths and the review makes practical recommendations Many of them would be better dealt with by community aimed at preventing those failures. But, much more orders, which can provide a longer period of supervision, significantly, it concludes that the deaths are extreme better support and more intensive work to change symptoms of an attitude to the purpose of imprisonment offending behaviour. If they were removed from the that needs to be fundamentally changed. prison system, custodial establishments would have a One section of the report looks at steps that should more realistic chance of providing suitable, supportive be taken to keep young people out of the criminal regimes for those young people who genuinely need to justice system altogether. I must declare an interest: I be in custody. This is not a soft option; it is the right have in my time sent quite a lot of people to prison, option. some of them to serve lengthy sentences, but I have an The report from the noble Lord, Lord Harris, has interest in keeping people out of prison. That is evidenced highlighted the way in which prison regimes have by my involvement, in one way or another, in a number suffered as a consequence of the large reduction in the of charitable organisations that help to do this: the number of prison staff over the last few years. This is a St Giles Trust, Endeavour Training and Youthat Risk. result of spending cuts. Inaction now would be a The review emphasises that, if there is to be change, recipe for future disaster. The amount of purposeful it must come from the top down. The top is, of course, activity in prisons has fallen in consequence, as reports the Secretary of State for Justice. When responsibility by the Chief Inspector of Prisons have repeatedly for prisons was passed from the Home Secretary to the made clear. Justice Secretary the judges had reservations. We were Since resources are so stretched, we need to make concerned that the funding demands of the Prison sure that we are using them in the best possible way. Service might be met at the expense of the court We need to rethink an approach that incarcerates so system and the administration of justice, but it seems 1345 Prisons: Young People[29 OCTOBER 2015] Prisons: Young People 1346 to me that there is something to be said for the same prisoners are spending a disproportionate amount of Minister considering the actions that will give best time locked in their cells. Opportunities for constructive value for money in both areas. Value for money is activity are very limited. The review rightly comments critical. We are in a period of financial stringency and that this is “impoverishing to the spirit”. It is a vicious it is not realistic to expect Ministers to take actions circle because employment in such an environment is that will increase overall demand for resources. Some not attractive, so that some staffing vacancies are not of the review’s recommendations call for an increase being filled. in the resources devoted to looking after those in A fundamental recommendation of the Harris review prison, but I suggest that these resources can and is that there should be a change in attitude as to what should be funded by a reduction in the overall size of prisons are there to do. They are there to impose the the prison population. punishment of deprivation of liberty by holding prisoners As the review points out, the prison system costs in securely and safely. That said, the prison regime should excess of £3 billion a year. The cost of a single place in not itself be designed to be punitive. It should be a male young offender institution is approximately primarily designed to rehabilitate. Restrictions should £40,000 a year. The substantial savings that can be be the minimum necessary. Life should approximate made by a reduction of the prison population is as closely as possible to the positive aspects of life in obvious. How can this be achieved? There are three the community. I hope that the Justice Secretary will ways. The first is by diverting young people away from endorse that recommendation. the criminal justice system. The second is by rehabilitating I turn to my third and most controversial source of those in prison, so that they do not reoffend. The third savings—reduction in the length of sentences served. is by reducing the length of sentences served by those The objects of sending people to prison are punishment, who are sent to prison. rehabilitation and protection of the public. I believe Most young people who end up in custody have a that we are sending people to prison for longer than is history, going back in many cases to early childhood, necessary to impose the appropriate punishment. The of disability or disadvantage. Many have mental health review provides the figures. On 31 December 2014, problems. Almost all have one thing in common: a there were 84,691 people in prison—almost double the lack of self-respect. They do not believe in their own figure in the early 1990s. Why is that? Courts have worth because no adult has ever suggested that they been sending more people to prison and for longer were worth anything. Rather, they become used to terms. The average sentence length has increased by denigration and abuse. If you do not respect yourself, about 15%. Why is this? Are people more wicked than you do not respect others. The Harris review emphasises they were 25 years ago? I do not believe so. I think that young people’s need for peer example and approval. It the increase in imprisonment is in part attributable to is this that the charities with which I am involved, and statutory imposition of minimum terms for murder, many other charities, provide. They show young people which have had a knock-on effect on other crimes, and that they are capable of achievement and that their in part to media pressure for longer sentences. How worth is appreciated. I have seen in practice young does one reverse this trend? Keeping old men in prison lives literally transformed in this way. for years and years when they no longer pose a danger to society is, I believe, disproportionately expensive Such organisations are having a hard time. Many of when the money could be better spent preventing them rely on funding from local authorities but cash- young people becoming criminals in the first place. strapped local authorities are withdrawing that funding. Government should try to get this message across to This is perhaps not the best day to emphasise the value the public and look for ways of reducing, rather than of government support for charities that work with increasing, sentence length. For all these reasons, I young people, but I do so none the less. Of course, support this Motion. those providing funding must be satisfied that it is being put to a use that is cost-effective. 3.55 pm Young people who offended under the influence of Baroness Healy of Primrose Hill (Lab): My Lords, I mental illness should not be given custodial sentences welcome today’s debate and thank my noble friend when what they really need is psychiatric help. It is Lord Harris for producing his excellent and ground- critical that the sentencing judge is fully informed in breaking report Changing Prisons, Saving Lives. such cases. The review draws attention to the fact that The issue of self-inflicted deaths in custody of 18 to many defendants are being given custodial sentences 24 year-olds must be addressed, the rate of which on the basis of presentence reports completed on the increased in 2013 for this group, who make up 21% of day of conviction. This surprised me, for it was not my the prison population. As the report states, experience. I endorse the recommendation that a custodial “all young adults in custody are potentially vulnerable”; sentence for a young adult is serious enough for a full and comprehensive written report to be prepared for and it goes on to ask, the court. “why were so many of these young adults in custody in the first place?”. I turn to rehabilitation of those in prison. It is a The case studies are heart-rending to read. The statistics depressing fact that a large proportion of those who are damning. As of 31 December 2014, 101 people come out of prison soon go back in again, having under 24 have died in our prisons since April 2007. As reoffended. Anyone who has read the Harris review the report makes clear, and some of the reports that it considered will not be “some radical changes are needed if we are to bring about a surprised by this. The review paints a depressing picture reduction in the number of deaths of young people in our of prison life today. Shortage of staff means that prisons”. 1347 Prisons: Young People[LORDS] Prisons: Young People 1348

[BARONESS HEALY OF PRIMROSE HILL] activities and access to television. In evidence, the The powerful recommendations that the noble Lord, Criminal Justice Alliance said that, Lord Harris, sets out must be seen in the context “restricting books, television and artistic materials also limits the expressed by his review that young adults in custody, activities of prisoners who face being locked up for longer due to and indeed those under 18 who share similar staff shortages. All of these factors may in the future be shown to characteristics, are young, vulnerable and still developing increase prisoner vulnerability and a propensity to self-harm”. individuals who need to be nurtured and supported Imprisonment should be the last option, not the first. safely to navigate through the complexities of their Another shocking statistic is that between 1978 and lives into purposeful, mature adulthood. March 2014, 26% of all the deaths of young adults aged 18 to 24 were within the first week of their arrival But why are so many young people sent to prison? in prison; 46% died within the first month and 86% died There must be better ways to divert them earlier in within the first six months. The National Offender their lives. I very much hope that the liaison and Management Service—NOMS—must urgently identify diversion services are fully rolled out across England and keep a record of the number of certified “safer by 2017. I ask the Minister to reassure me on this cells” both in use and available for use across the point. These services identify those with mental health prison estate. Tragically, all the children and 78 of the problems, learning disabilities, autism, substance misuse 83 young adults whom the review looked at died as a problems and other vulnerabilities as early as possible result of hanging through utilisation of a ligature as they come into contact with youth and criminal point, such as a window, light fitting or upturned bed, justice services and can lead to more community sentences within their cells. Proper use of safer cells must be an and fewer custodial ones. immediate and achievable priority. If fewer young people were sent to prison, there Other noble Lords will, I am sure, highlight the would be more resources devoted to keeping those plight of certain groups within the young adults in unavoidably detained more secure and safe and enabling custody—women, BAMEs and those leaving care, all them to receive appropriate therapeutic or rehabilitative of whom have particular vulnerabilities that I would interventions. As the noble Lord, Lord Harris, has like to raise but time does not permit me to. I will just said: point out that 27% of the adult prison population are “Some of the young people had had chaotic lives and complex care leavers, despite the fact that less than 1% of histories. Some had been subject to child abuse, been exposed to under-18s enter local authority care annually. violence or suffered high levels of bereavement. Others had been in foster and residential care”. Finally, I ask the Minister to look at the findings of a report published last week by the All-Party The review states: Parliamentary Group on Mindfulness. Mindful Nation “Each of those deaths represents a failure by the State to points out that: protect the young people concerned”. “Nearly half the prison population have depression or anxiety It points out that lessons have not been learned and … suicide rates are considerably higher than in the general not enough has been done to bring about substantive population”, change and calls on the Government to make a number and that in the year after release prisoners who have of key policy changes to help these vulnerable young these conditions are more likely to be reconvicted. people to become productive citizens, desist from crime Given the evidence of mindfulness-based cognitive and be kept safe while in custody. I welcome its call for, therapy—MBCT—preventing recurrent depression, it “an inherent shift in the philosophy of prison”. could be very useful for helping those in prison, especially My noble friend Lord Harris has already set out the the young adults this debate is concerned about. key recommendations and I support the call for the It would be far better for young people to be new custody and rehabilitation officer who would diverted away from imprisonment at a much earlier replace the personal officer and be a specialist, suitably stage, but if this cannot always be the case, greater trained professional, with a small enough case load so efforts must be made by prisons and the politicians that enough time can be given to each vulnerable who dictate policies to ensure that the young are kept adult. It is especially important that one of the roles of safe and are successfully rehabilitated. the CARO should be to ensure that better links are maintained with the families of young adults, ensuring 4.03 pm that they are involved in the management of vulnerability. Lord Adebowale (CB): My Lords, I thank the noble The review also recommends that young adults Lord, Lord Harris, for bringing this important debate should be, to the Chamber. I declare my interest as chief executive “able to spend a reasonable part of the day (8 hours or more) of Turning Point, a health and social care charity and outside their cells, engaged in purposeful activity of a varied social enterprise which works with people with complex nature”, needs—including mental health, substance misuse and and that never again should access to books be denied learning disabilities—many of whom are young people. as a punishment or used as a “perk and privilege”. The In a sense, we are the ambulance at the bottom of the review is concerned that the IEP—incentives and earned cliff which works with the results of failure, I guess. privileges—scheme does not take into account the I reiterate the call in the report of the noble Lord, impact of what may seem like small privileges on Lord Harris, on deaths in custody of 18 to 24 year-olds mental well-being in the austere prison environment, that more needs to be done, in and out of prison, to and that fatal incidents occurred disproportionately ensure that the number of self-inflicted deaths is reduced. among prisoners on the lowest level of privileges, Indeed, I agree with all the remarks made by the noble which reduced protective factors such as association, Lord, Lord Dholakia, the noble and learned Lord, 1349 Prisons: Young People[29 OCTOBER 2015] Prisons: Young People 1350

Lord Phillips of Worth Matravers, and the noble It is therefore clear that we need to intervene early, Baroness, Lady Healy of Primrose Hill. We need to but there is a significant group of young people who start looking more carefully at this group of young we still too often ignore. The noble Baroness, Lady people, and the requirements for sufficient numbers of Healy of Primrose Hill, made this point about children appropriately trained staff in young offender institutions in care but I wish to emphasise it. There are 69,540 children and prisons; a wider range of better-resourced residential in care at any one time, with 6,000 leaving each year. placements outside the prison system for young adults We know where they are and when they leave. Statistics in conflict with the law; adequate sharing of information released by the Department for Education show that across and within agencies; and mechanisms to monitor, as of 31 March 2015, there were 260 looked-after audit and follow up recommendations from investigations children in England’s YOIs out of a custodial population and inquests. of 706—a proportion of 36.8% were in care. As has It is important, as many Peers have mentioned, that been pointed out, less than 1% of all children in one reads the stories of these young people to understand England are in care but, according to the Beyond the impact of the failure to provide adequate services Youth Custody report, looked-after children make up properly. One case study sticks in my mind after 33% of boys and 61% of girls in custody. These reading through the Inquest and T2A report Stolen children are meant to be looked after by the state; that Lives and Missed Opportunities. It is that of Alex, a is evidence that it is just not happening. Prison is 15 year-old mixed-race boy who was found hanging in overused, due to the shortages in the health and care his cell by his shoelaces in 2012 and, sadly, died while systems to address their complex needs. Young people in custody. Alex was placed in long-term foster care at need interventions, not incarceration. five years of age after being sexually abused by a Children in care are there because of abuse and member of his maternal family. He suffered trauma neglect; that is not an excuse for their criminal behaviour from the abuse later on and became difficult to manage but the pattern that leads to that behaviour is clearly due to his complex needs: ADHD, attachment issues established, well before they come to the attention of and educational difficulties. He had a total of eight the criminal justice system. Such children are four different social workers from the age of five until his times more likely than their peers to have mental death. In 2011, he received a 10-month custodial sentence. health difficulties, less likely to do well at school than This was his first time in custody but, due to his age their peers and more likely to experience even more and vulnerabilities, he was sent to an institution where abuse and/or neglect when in care. There are clear he was one of the youngest children. patterns that health and social care professionals can On the day of Alex’s death, he was in a clearly work with. heightened state of distress and had made a disclosure It often strikes me as odd that we know where these about his sexual abuse to a prison officer for the first children in care are. For example, in Stoke, I am told time. It was found that adequate support was not there are 500 kids in care at any one time. I do not given. The failures included: having no named social think it is beyond the wit of woman or man to create a worker; a lack of communication with external agencies; life care plan for each of these young people within the no support for Alex’s specific mental health needs; not population of a county, town or borough such as having an adequate level of support for him or other Stoke. Such a care plan should start with understanding vulnerable looked- after children; and that youth offending the dreams, desires and wants of that young person. workers did not have enough responsibility for Alex’s They are not unlike my kids or kids that any of your care needs while in custody—and before he arrived in Lordships might be privileged enough to have. What custody, there was no evidence of an appropriate do they want to do? How do they want to do it? Using forensic psychiatric assessment. When you look at that the private sector, public sector and voluntary sector case, you can see the litany of errors. There was no resources in such a town, it should be possible to adequate psychiatric assessment when he could have create a life care plan for each young person, which been diverted from custody and subsequent fatal actions. they are involved in and engaged in. It could be This is clearly a tragedy and one which could have reviewed annually, or on a six-month basis, so that been avoided. that individual gets attention and knows that they are It is a welcome statistic to note that the number of surrounded by the kind of soft boundaries within young adults in custody is declining, but there are still which they can experiment, not unlike most middle-class too many with complex needs entering the prison children. That is surely possible, and if it were to system. We know that management of young adults happen, we would have fewer cases of children needing requires a distinct approach. Those who remain in the criminal justice system in the first place. Where custody are some of the most vulnerable, troubled children have the complex needs that Alex had, they young adults with complex needs such as family discord, can be signposted and approached with the appropriate substance misuse, mental health difficulties and learning individual health and social care interventions. They disabilities. They are often the victims of exploitation, are an ever smaller proportion of the 500 or so in a abuse and trauma, underpinned by poverty and inequality. place such as Stoke. We need to change the cycle that exists between poverty, Sweeping that to one side, let us look at the cost. complex needs and prison so that the number of Some 72% of children released from custody reoffend people entering the criminal justice system with complex in one year, according to Barnardo’s. Doing nothing is needs is reduced. My view is that young people with not only immoral but expensive, as is carrying on what the needs that Alex had and who end up in prison we are doing. If we know this, we need to do something should be seen as a “never” event. It is a crisis, not about it and address the stock and flow problem that something that we should accept as a given. currently exists. It is surprising, and a bit sad, that the 1351 Prisons: Young People[LORDS] Prisons: Young People 1352

[LORD ADEBOWALE] proposal, and the findings of the Harris review about learning from the report of the noble Lord, Lord the specific needs of the 18 to 24 age group must place Harris, is similar to that from the report I did with the some question marks against it. Independent Commission on Mental Health and Policing, The Harris review emphasises that young people which I chaired. The conclusions are similar, and continue to develop physically and neurologically into frighteningly so: a lack of clear communication between their mid-20s in ways that affect not only their behaviour agencies; a lack of adequate resources to staff these but their ability to cope with custody and separation agencies; and those involved in criminal justice, health from their families. They have particular care and and social care not being fully trained to deal with support needs, therefore, and the review proposes a complex needs. Indeed, the criminal justice system, new role of custody and rehabilitation officer: a person just like the police system, is being used as a care properly trained to work with young people, with resource rather than a resource of last resort. This is awareness of mental health and risk issues, replacing not the care that these young people should be getting. the personal officer scheme, which is not working As I say, we need to change the cycle. The thinking effectively in most establishments. The key may not be that got us into this state cannot be the thinking that that that entire proposal should be embraced but that gets us out. there should be staff trained sufficiently to manage One way of doing this is through more community this age group. The needs of care-leavers tend to be or residential-based institutions which work with children especially acute. and young adults who are in the stock, as it were, of The Harris review rightly emphasises the impact of prison and young offender institutions, to progress lack of purposeful activity in this age group. It draws them back into the community and keep them there. attention to the persistent evidence of inspection reports As I say, I think that is perfectly possible—I know the that purposeful activity and time out of the cell are noble Viscount, Lord Younger, is going to shut me up seriously inadequate. At the simplest level, the impact in a moment, but I will continue for one more minute. of a lack of time in the fresh air—just 30 minutes a It is possible to provide the care that these individuals day in many adult prisons—is significant for the health need. and well-being of younger people. The review notes a I close by reiterating my support for the noble similar shortfall in rehabilitation and resettlement work. Lord’s report. Prevention needs to be funded adequately It also observes: and children in care need to be prioritised, because “NOMS management have no proper means of assessing the maths is obvious. If we can deal with children in whether sufficient care is being given to vulnerable young adults care, we can make inroads into this problem. On or, indeed, whether minimum standards are being met”. behalf of Alex and many others, there is no excuse. Those convicted of crimes need to have as much The report of the noble Lord, Lord Harris, is an access to rehabilitative work as possible, not least so as excuse remover: we know where these kids are, we to prevent crime, and the impact and suffering caused know where they come from, we know what the challenges to victims of crime. are and we know we can put the services in to prevent Finally and importantly, I add a warm tribute to them ending up like Alex. Let us just get on with it and the hard and effective work of custodial prison staff. do it. Many young people are given support at crucial moments by staff who have learnt to spot signs of anxiety or low 4.13 pm mood. Many lives are saved by a timely word or The Lord Bishop of Portsmouth: My Lords, I welcome action. The review mentions the valuable role of prison the very thorough and wide-ranging review conducted chaplains. They play an important part, not only in by the noble Lord, Lord Harris. The Bishop to Prisons, offering the resources of faith but as part of the team the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Rochester, in the assessment, care in custody and teamwork regrets that he cannot be in his place today and processes which are used actively to support those at contribute to this very welcome debate. The Harris risk of suicide or self-harm. inquiry took every opportunity to talk to young people The Harris review confirms the growing sense that, and to the families who have tragically lost their just as childhood continues to the age of 18, so the children while they were in the care of the state in process of physical, neurological and psychological prisons and young offender institutions. maturity to adulthood goes on from there into the 20s, That terrible toll has of course been the subject of and that the penal custody system should take account more than one inquiry. Fatally Flawed was a joint of that. report by INQUEST and the Prison Reform Trust into deaths between 2003 and 2010. In 2014, the 4.19 pm YouthJustice Board issued its report, Deaths of Children in Custody. In late 2013, the National Offender Lord Judd (Lab): My Lords, first, I warmly thank Management Service launched a consultation on the noble Lord, Lord Harris, for this challenging integrating 18 to 21 year-olds into mainstream prisons. report. I found it extremely timely and urgent, and he The main reasons were, first, that concentrating this was right. The way he spoke this afternoon reinforced relatively volatile age group into dedicated establishments that. increased the tensions and risks and, secondly, that There are of course all the individual relationships integration would enable young adults to be placed in and how they are handled, to which speakers in this resettlement prisons relatively near to their home area debate already referred. However, we cannot overlook and to receive better resettlement services. As far as I what comes to me from this report. It is an indictment am aware, there has not yet been an outcome from this of society as a whole and its leadership—that cuts 1353 Prisons: Young People[29 OCTOBER 2015] Prisons: Young People 1354 across party lines; I am not making party points It is good to hear the noble Lord emphasise the fact here—that we can have a situation of this kind in that we need a total culture change in our penal 2015, in a country that keeps talking about how successful system. The culture should not be dominated by it is, if perhaps not always, as an economic force and considerations of custody, although of course that is of all the material achievements of our society, while important, or by considerations of punishment, although in the face of all that is this story which society of course we need to make it clear that some activities chooses to push under the carpet and refuse to and practices are not acceptable. It should be dominated acknowledge as a grave challenge which cannot be by a culture of rehabilitation. tackled with enough urgency. I thank the noble Lord To go back to the YMCA for a moment, we had a for giving us the opportunity to see this so clearly. chap that I liked immensely, a senior superintendent in I had for a number of years the privilege of being the police in the north of the country, who was central the president of the YMCA in England. I got very to many activities of the YMCA, not only in the north fascinated by its work in detention centres, particularly but nationally. He once confided in me, saying, “I for young people. I was interested in all its work, but I always think that the moment when a person is sent was very interested in its important social housing down is absolutely crucial—it is a very lonely moment programme for the young and vulnerable. Let me give indeed. People react in different ways, some with bravado, two examples of perturbing situations I came across. some with fear and apprehension, and some clearly One was a retired chief constable with quite a reputation totally broken at that point. In an ideal society, that is who worked as one of our volunteers in a detention the very moment when somebody should take the centre. He had a story about talking to a young chap elbow of the sentenced person and say, ‘Come on, this with whom he had been dealing in the centre. This is a terrible mess, how are we going to sort it out?’”. chap began to cry and he said to him, “But why are The right reverend Prelate made the vital point that you crying? You are about to be released”. The youngster what are indispensable are friendship and support—to said, “That is why I am crying—I am so frightened of have an identifiable friend, walking with that person the world outside. Whatever I might have encountered through the sentence and the threshold and back into here, I am terrified of going back into society and all the world, and back into a full and positive life. These the immediate pressures and realities that will face me. people are so often victims themselves. When I talked I am just not equipped to handle them”. to them, I thought that it would be amazing if with In the context of this consideration, the issue of such a nightmare story they were not in trouble. So mental health comes out. Of course, it comes out why are they in this situation, and how do we help to throughout the whole penal system and in much else rebuild? of society. Here I must declare an interest because one of my daughters led a team of counsellors for a 4.28 pm number of years working with women with mental Lord Fellowes (CB): My Lords, this timely debate, health problems in deprived communities. The thing initiated by the review of the noble Lord, Lord Harris, that repeatedly infuriated her—she used to get really invites discussion of a pretty broad spectrum of prison worked up—is that her work was officially recognised issues. I should like to narrow it down a little for a and appreciated, and she would be sent more and moment, and focus on two areas that I regard as more people from border authorities, the health service, worthy of more attention than they are sometimes the police and all sorts of sources. They were asked to given. The first is the question of whether prisoners of cope with the situation. However, the money did not voting age should have the right to vote. Remand come, too. She said, “If you look at mental health prisoners are allowed to vote as it is, of course, but the practically here, and the work I am trying to do with right to vote is withdrawn from all others. My second my team, we see ourselves as the forgotten factor in topic is the conditions under which we incarcerate the health service and the rest”. That is a social many of our 85,000 prisoners, and I will come to that responsibility that comes home very strongly. in a minute. First, I should declare two interests. The The other example is simply that I went to visit a first is that I am an ex-chairman of the Prison Reform team working in quite a big young offenders’ institution Trust, and the second is that a member of my family in the Midlands. They were very worried because their was, until recently, a probation officer in Wandsworth contract—I am uneasy about this contract culture prison. generally—was to get people into jobs. Working with On voting rights, I have never understood the youngsters, they very quickly recognised how complex high passions that are aroused in some quarters at the the situation was, and they would say, “For some of very thought of giving prisoners the vote. It seems these youngsters, the very last thing to do is to push self-evident that the more a prisoner is treated as a them into a job—they are not equipped for it. They responsible citizen while incarcerated, the more need help and support, and they need preparation to likely that prisoner is to behave as a responsible work outside”. That threshold between the institution citizen on release. My preference is that the right to and the outside world is terribly important, but they vote be given to all prisoners, other than those who were told in firm terms that their contract was to get will never be released, provided they are properly people into jobs, and they were not to start using the qualified to exercise it under the same rules as the rest money on consultation work and discovering that of the voting public. But I realise that this may be people were not ready for jobs. That was not their job. asking too much of a Government who have set their They were told explicitly that if they did not concentrate face against such a move for so long, so as a start I on that, somebody else would get the contract who suggest that all prisoners should be entitled to vote would. That kind of situation has to be faced. within a year of release, providing they are properly 1355 Prisons: Young People[LORDS] Prisons: Young People 1356

[LORD FELLOWES] thereafter should be devoted to releasing them at the qualified to do so, and that those serving sentences of end of their sentence as responsible citizens of this less than a year should not have the right to vote country. I support the Motion. withheld at all. I dare say that some prisoners would say that the 4.35 pm right to vote is not very high on their worry list, but I Lord Carlile of Berriew (LD): My Lords, there is a believe that anything that can help prisoners, many of great deal of evidence in this debate of the need for them with personality disorders, to adjust to the concept action and change in the way in which young prisoners of life outside as a responsible citizen must be desirable. are treated. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Harris This would at least be a step to lessening the appalling of Haringey, on his report and on instigating this rate of reoffending in this country, especially by prisoners debate, as well as on producing unanimity on all the of younger age, in the signal it gives to prisoners that main issues under discussion—so far, at least. I look the outside world has not given up on them. forward to hearing from my noble friend Lord McNally, The fact that we would in initiating this change be who is now chairman of the Youth Justice Board. The moving towards conforming with EU requirements is, YJB has done a great deal of positive work, particularly in a way, neither here nor there, but if it takes some of in the area of reducing the numbers of young people the tension on the issue out of our relationship with held in custody and in improving the way in which Brussels, so much the better. Surely if we do it, we they are treated. Shortly we shall also hear from the should make such a change voluntarily and not with noble Lord, Lord Bradley, who some time ago now ill grace. Anything we can do to reduce reoffending produced a seminal report on the issues arising from must, of its very nature, be encouraged. As a postscript, mental illness occurring when people are in custody. I add that Britain is almost alone in western Europe in In June 2014, sponsored by the Michael Sieff imposing a complete ban on prisoner voting. While we Foundation and the National Children’s Bureau, I had still have one of the highest reoffending rates in Europe, the privilege of chairing an all-party parliamentarians’ not to mention one of the highest per capita prison unofficial inquiry, which took evidence into the youth populations, prison is not working. justice system and which contained Members of all As to the condition of our jails, I wonder if noble political parties in both Houses, including, significantly, Lords saw the recent prison inspector’s report on the current Solicitor-General, Robert Buckland QC, Walton prison. It was described as dirty, overcrowded who had very clear views that are consistent with and unsafe. There were 10 deaths there in 14 months, everything that has been said in this debate. We produced three of them suicides. The routine for prisoners was a report recommending numerous changes in the youth described as “chaotic and unpredictable”, and prisoners’ justice system, some of which I shall refer to in a accommodation was described as, moment. “dirty, overcrowded and poorly equipped”. The point of mentioning all those reports is to show how much learning there is, and how much There were some positive findings, and I am not advocacy there has been, for change in the youth suggesting that the problems there are necessarily justice system. I urge upon the Minister that the replicated everywhere else, but one things stands out Government need no more evidence of what is needed to me when considering the life of a prisoner in our by way of change. Indeed, in listening to this debate, if older jails, and that is the number of prisoners sharing all the Minister did was to listen once again to the cells built for one only. eight-minute speech of the noble and learned Lord, When I last asked a Question about this shared Lord Phillips of Worth Matravers, he would see a accommodation, the Answer was that no less than summary of the changes in policy that are required. 20,000 prisoners are sharing single cells. This is a Of course, one of the main issues is overcrowding, wretched state of affairs. I was, though, delighted to not in the youth justice system but in the adult system. hear some distinctly encouraging intentions from the The noble and learned Lord, Lord Phillips, mentioned Ministry of Justice about the prison estate, and I some numbers, as did the noble Lord, Lord Fellowes, sincerely hope that that promise is fulfilled. I hope that a few moments ago. As they gave those figures I the Minister will be able to encourage some optimism. recalled that when I first became a Member of another At present, such is the size of the prison population place in 1983, many MPs at that time were expressing and such is the shortage of prison staff that many of outrage that the prison numbers had reached 35,000. I these prisoners sharing cells will be locked up together do not notice that our country is a much more lawful pretty well all day and all night. What could possibly place now, with 84,000 people in custody, than it was be worse for young men and women, many of them in 1983, when there were 35,000. Perhaps there is with mental health problems and personality disorders, something to be learned from that simple statistical as they prepare in cramped and squalid conditions to comparison. meet the world outside? Very specifically on the youth justice system, I will Surely, if we believe in the Churchill maxim that a start with a kind of metaphor. If a child is ill and country should be judged in term of fairness and needs a routine elective operation, inevitably it is sent decency by the way it treats its prisoners, we fail his to a paediatrician before a decision is made as to what test. More power to the elbow of those who have treatment should be given. The paediatrician is not expressed their determination to improve the prison someone who simply has the label “Paediatrician” estate and to enable our prisoners to lead a less cramped attached to him or her, but has to have learning, and disfiguring life in preparation for release. Prisoners’ education, experience and qualifications, all specific punishment is their loss of liberty, and every effort and expert to the paediatric advice which they give. 1357 Prisons: Young People[29 OCTOBER 2015] Prisons: Young People 1358

One of the conclusions that was reached by the My final point is about the rehabilitation of offenders. parliamentarians’ inquiry to which I referred a few Young people who have been in trouble as teenagers moments ago was that that sort of experience does not are sometimes unable to obtain jobs because their exist in the youth justice system. Yes, of course there records follow them. I urge upon the Minister that the are some very expert people, but it is pure chance Government should examine that carefully and try to whether a real expert is involved in a case. Somebody ensure that, when young people who have been in can be called a youth justice although they have no trouble become adults, after a reasonable time they are education, knowledge or training in youth justice—at no longer saddled with a criminal record. least worth the name. A solicitor or a barrister can prosecute or defend in 4.43 pm a youth court without having any understanding of, or Lord Bradley (Lab): My Lords, at the start I declare training in, the specific requirements of dealing with my health and related interests—in particular, that I young people. Over my 45 years at the Bar, nothing am a trustee of the Prison Reform Trust and the has changed in that respect. My first ever contested Centre for Mental Health. case as a barrister was in the Camberwell Green juvenile court, as it was called, when I defended a I add my congratulations to my noble friend Lord young person charged with an offence of criminal Harris on securing this very important debate about damage. I had no idea what I was doing. Happily for his fine report on 18 to 24 year-olds who have died in the young person concerned, the result of the case was tragic circumstances in prison. I commend his crucial favourable, but I had absolutely no idea, and have recommendations, which must, I believe, be implemented. none now, how that result was achieved, because I had In this short debate, I shall, not surprisingly, concentrate no material training. on the development of liaison and diversion services Today, young solicitors and barristers prosecute related to the recommendations of my own report—I and defend in youth courts and they still have no am grateful for the kind words of the noble Lord, such specific understanding or training. One of the Lord Carlile, about that—and other reports that are recommendations of our inquiry was that no justice— complementary to it. I believe that my recommendations whether a full-time district judge or a part-time justice— dovetail very clearly with the findings of my noble should sit in cases without such training. I greatly friend Lord Harris. Taken together, they can make a value the work of youth justices and am delighted to real contribution to tackling this appalling situation. see a very distinguished one, the noble Lord, Lord Crucially, as noble Lords have already stated, the Ponsonby, in his place, but there is currently no need for early identification and assessment of mental requirement that they should have any real expertise in health, learning disabilities and difficulties, and other what they do. Indeed, there is no requirement that complex needs, and where appropriate to divert those someone who is regarded as a youth justice should people out of or away from the criminal justice system, always sit on a case involving a young person. is absolutely essential. They need to be passported at Furthermore, we recommended that what I think in that point to appropriate specialist services, whether the trade is usually called “ticketing” should be applied that be in-patient services or community-based services. to lawyers, whether they be solicitors or barristers, The report of my noble friend Lord Harris looks who appear in the youth court because it is a specialised specifically at 18 to 24 year-olds. But we must ask area. Understanding what has happened in a young ourselves what could be done earlier with children to person’s life is much more difficult than most other undertake crucial identification and assessment before things that advocates do. The Bar Standards Board, to they find themselves in the criminal justice system, or its credit, has set up a review of this matter with an at least hitting against it. An example of this is what in-depth investigation into the ticketing issue. The we do in our schools. I am not suggesting that everyone Law Society has been much less compliant and shows who works in a school should be a specialist in mental real resistance to any form of expertise ticketing in this health problems or learning disabilities. However, what area because, of course, it would limit the number of basic awareness training could be implemented for our solicitors who are able to appear in such cases. I hope teachers, canteen staff and caretakers so that they are that it will soon change its mind. aware of the issues that they see in children and can If we had experts dealing with these cases, surely we help to passport them quickly into other appropriate would be able to ensure that better, more constructive services? We should not have to wait—if I can caricature non-custodial disposals were achieved. We advise that it as such—for a child to go from the front of the class youth scrutiny panels should be established by the to the back of the class, out of the classroom, out of Youth Justice Board and local authorities to focus on the school, into the park and into trouble. Why can we diversion measures so that these trials can be avoided not identify that problem earlier in the system so that if possible. However, when they come to court, we they perhaps do not end up in the youth justice advise that there should be comprehensive case system? assessments and family group conferences, where the As the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, rightly pointed real problems that affect the young person’s life can be out, excellent work has been undertaken by the Youth assessed. As has been said repeatedly, the young people Justice Board and the youth justice services to reduce who find themselves in court have almost always had the number of children in custody. Even so, look at chaotic lives. As the noble Lord, Lord Judd, emphasised, some basic facts from the youth justice system: young for many of these young people custody is the most people with a mental health condition are three times comfortable place they have ever been, and we do not more likely to be in the youth justice system; they are want that to be perpetuated. six times more likely than other young people to have 1359 Prisons: Young People[LORDS] Prisons: Young People 1360

[LORD BRADLEY] To achieve all this, we need to build up those a diagnosable conduct disorder; they are more likely services, not just for people who find themselves in the to have a moderate learning disability; and they are criminal justice system, but for the community in more likely to have a speech and communication need general. We need better mental health services, or traumatic brain injury. Data from the previous better alcohol treatment services and better drug youth point of arrest screening indicate that children treatment services because offenders are only a subset on a current care order were significantly overrepresented of the community while they have offended. They in the youth justice system. need to return to the community and still need those As we have a national rollout of liaison and diversion effective services. Some 53% of rollout of the liaison services, we have to look at the essential specific needs diversion services has been achieved so far. I believe of children and young adults in that programme. It is that 100% rollout can be achieved by 2017-18 with the clear that the success of such schemes is highly dependent Government’s commitment to that investment through on the existence of effective diversionary infrastructure the comprehensive spending review. of services. Although the extra investment over the next five years in children and adolescent mental 4.52 pm health services is welcome, there is still a huge shortfall Baroness Young of Hornsey (CB): My Lords, I welcome of services across the country, whether that be in-patient the opportunity to raise some of the important issues beds or services in the community. There is a shortage covered by the excellent review of the noble Lord, of therapy programmes and timely referral to them, Lord Harris. I am grateful to Jessica Mullen from and there is poor provision for learning disability and Clinks which is an organisation working in partnership speech and language services across the country. With with the Young review, and Katharine Sacks-Jones, limited resources, thresholds for access to such services who is director of AGENDA, the alliance for girls and are raised and, therefore, become a barrier to effective women at risk. I am grateful to them for their comments diversion and liaison schemes. and contributions. I am currently chair of the steering As we heard from noble Lords, such schemes must group for AGENDA and I have chaired the Young take into account maturity. When children move from review since October 2013. children’s services to adult services, the age barrier can Supported by the Black Training and Enterprise be a real deterrent to effective continuity of care. The Group and Clinks, the Youngreview set out to examine Centre for Mental Health set up the Bradley Commission how existing knowledge and experience could be harnessed and we looked at the issue of maturity. Our first to improve outcomes for young black and/or Muslim recommendation was that: men in the criminal justice system. Our report was “National government should foster a whole systems approach published last year. I hope the Minister and indeed to ensure all young people aged 15-24 years who require specialist other noble Lords have had the opportunity to read at intervention should experience continuity of care”. least the executive summary of the report, and I would I would be grateful if the Minister could comment on be happy to brief anyone who would like to know such a proposal. more about our current programme of work. The rollout of the liaison diversion service is interlinked The Young review is now into a second, three-year with other important initiatives about assessment and phase funded by charitable trusts and is embarking on identification—for example, street triage and the the challenging task of implementation. The initial consequent reduction in the use of police cells for review was born out of a sense of frustration about a children. It is welcome that the Government intend to lackof progressandthelowprioritygiventodisproportionality, ban the use of these cells by July of next year, but we race and ethnicity in the criminal justice system. We need further investment in places of safety away from were also mindful of the changes that were about to the criminal justice system to ensure that people in take place through the Transforming Rehabilitation mental health or other crises have the appropriate agenda. For too long, many of us have been aware that environment in which an assessment can be carried young black men are overrepresented in the criminal out effectively. justice system, and at every stage, young black and The key issue around liaison diversion is that it minority ethnic men report the least positive perceptions should start at the earliest opportunity—often when of that process and of prison life compared with all young people come into contact with the criminal other groups. Contrary to popular belief, only approximately justice system at the police station. The information 1% of Muslim offenders are in prison for terrorism-related that is gathered about their complex needs must then offences, but it is of concern that the percentage of be shared along the criminal justice pathway from the young Muslim men in the criminal justice system has police station to the court and to prison, if that is almost doubled since 2002. the appropriate next step, or, more effectively, into the The Young review was pleased to be able to submit community. There has to be continuity of care. If they evidence in writing and in person to the Harris review end up in the prison system, they can link very effectively into self-inflicted deaths in custody. We support the to the new officer that is recommended in the report noble Lord’s position that all young people in custody by the noble Lord, Lord Harris. That information are vulnerable in one way or another. We would also must be shared in the system and dealt with in the describe black and/or young Muslim men in prison as system. Services must then be in the system so that vulnerable, particularly because of the impact of racism when the individual comes back into the community and discrimination on their experiences of ethnicity, they have the effective services that they need for faith and culture. effective rehabilitation to ensure that they do not It can be difficult for the public to identify young reoffend. offenders as vulnerable, but front-line professionals 1361 Prisons: Young People[29 OCTOBER 2015] Prisons: Young People 1362 know all too well that the same person can be both adherents are regarded and consequently treated. Training victim and perpetrator. We often find with these young and professional development for those who engage men that they have very poor experiences, which many with Muslim offenders is urgently needed, and this is noble Lords have pointed out in the debate. They have an area where former service users can make a useful been picked up by the police over and again, they have contribution to better understanding. been preyed on by adults, or they have been in the care Drawing conclusions from the data around self-inflicted system. The noble Baroness, Lady Healy, and my harm and death is challenging and complex. For one noble friend Lord Adebowale reminded us that care thing, information on faith is not uniformly collected leavers are overrepresented in the criminal justice system, across the criminal justice system, which makes and it is an issue which has been examined by my comparisons difficult. We would also want to draw noble friend Lord Laming and the Prison Reform attention to the challenges of using the data on self-harm Trust. This is not intended to be an excuse for such as proxy measures for vulnerability in the group on behaviour, but if we are serious about reducing the which we focused. The data appear to show that number of young people going to prison, we need to overall, black and minority ethnic prisoners—incidentally, develop a much more informed understanding of their they are not disaggregated in the data available—are experiences and the ways in which they shape their less likely to take their own lives than their white perceptions and world view. Only then can we challenge counterparts. However, the data also show that those offending behaviour and give them the support they in the 18-24 age group are more likely to take their need, helping them to build resilience and to desist own lives than older prisoners in the same group, so from criminal activity. we cannot say with confidence whether young BAME At the same time, we have to demonstrate seriousness men are less or more likely to commit suicide than about tackling the systems which produce racism, young white men of a similar age. stereotyping, discrimination and stigmatisation, as well The disproportionately negative outcomes that BAME as the lack of opportunities that so many in these offenders experience in a range of areas will almost communities face. I will cite one striking example. A inevitably affect their well-being. The other point to young man I spoke to during the course of the review, note is that BAME covers an extremely diverse group one of whose parents had died when he was a small and it is possible, although it is not able to be proven, child and the other with serious mental health issues, that young men in some of these sub-categories, as it had been sent away to a state boarding school from were, may be disguising outcomes for others. We simply where he would run away as he was desperate to see his do not know, and therefore we need the data to be one remaining parent and his younger brother, for broken down and cross-referenced within the system whom he felt responsible. He got involved in criminal in order for us to fully understand who is vulnerable activity and was in and out of prison for several years. and what the risk factors are within this broad group. A local community-based organisation that works During a constructive meeting with Andrew Selous, with offenders and their families helped him to sort his the Minister responsible for prisons, he expressed his life out, and he left prison with some hope of turning desire to support the aims of our review and made it around. He applied for approximately 50 jobs and several useful suggestions. Will the Minister take back could not get an interview, not even for basic manual to the MoJ this issue of data as it continues to cause labour. He decided to become a self-employed builder unnecessary complications in our analysis? Another and decorator. He bought a car and called to fix point is that it has been suggested that boys and men insurance for the vehicle. When he admitted to having find different ways to self-harm than girls and women. a criminal record, he was quoted a cost of £12,000 a Again, that is something that people are exploring year. Of course that was completely out of his reach, through various pieces of research. and indeed it would be even for some of us. Sadly, that I want to say something about women and girls by young man returned to prison. Aspiration needs hope, referring to AGENDA, which is an alliance for women and without that, it is hard to see how we can change and girls at risk. It is concerned with the most vulnerable people’s outlook. women in society—particularly but not exclusively, It is difficult for all former offenders to find work, those who have survived domestic abuse, child sexual and it is an issue that the Government urgently need to abuse and the mental health issues arising from such address, but research demonstrates that those applicants experiences. Many of these women are ending up in whose names appear to indicate a candidate of black our prisons. Female prisoners account for a or minority ethnic origin will have to submit more disproportionate amount of self-harm on the prison than twice as many applications for a job even to get estate. In 2014, 26% of all self-harm incidents in shortlisted. The levels of prejudice and stigmatisation prisons in England and Wales were attributed to women, faced by Muslims are bad and getting worse. How can despite them representing only 5% of the prison it be that we have reached a position where lawyers feel population. It is true that rates of self-harm have been it necessary to advise their male Muslim clients to cut falling among women prisoners, but as the previous off their beards so that they do not look too much like levels were so high, this is not really a cause for extremists when they are facing trial? While for many celebration. The figures remain shocking and unacceptable. of the Muslim offenders and former offenders that we Many of us would agree that an awful lot of women met their faith was a source of strength, they were in prison should not be there. Sometimes they are acutely aware of the stereotypes and stigma attached arrested, or put in prison when other people have to being an offender and being a Muslim in prison. committed crimes against them, and they seem to be The current view of Islam perpetuated in sections of taking the blame. This was made clear to me by a the media and elsewhere can shape the ways in which number of women who shared their experience of 1363 Prisons: Young People[LORDS] Prisons: Young People 1364

[BARONESS YOUNG OF HORNSEY] experience, what can happen when someone takes care domestic abuse. When they called the police because to show an individual interest in the possibility of they were being attacked by their partners, the women another human life. That took place in David’s case. got arrested while their partners were not necessarily He is not looking for praise, plaudits or honours; he is arrested. This is not good enough. Some very vulnerable doing something that was conjured into his life by women are ending up in prison when it is obviously someone within the system who was prepared to take not the right place. that extra bit of interest. With regard to the voluntary sector, it is true that it The contributions to this debate have already illustrated has played an enormous and substantial role in developing that there are things wrong with the system, which and driving forward local intervention strategies and need to be fixed. However, I say earnestly to the solutions to some of these issues. But, as noble Lords Minister that it is not that we do not know that will be aware, the voluntary sector is in quite a perilous something is wrong; it is the fact that we have been state. As it anticipates more cuts to services, and not told so often that something is wrong. The report by quite reaping the rewards that it thought it might the noble Lord, Lord Harris, has focused us once through the transforming rehabilitation agenda, we again on some of the major issues, but surely the case are in for quite a difficult time. There needs to be a of David shows that, even within a failing system, sense that the Government are on top of this and have success stories are possible. a strategy for dealing with it. If we do not support the I come to the second point, which I shall put briefly voluntary sector we will be in a whole heap of trouble. to your Lordships’ House. We have listened to noble As noble Lords have said, many women and young Lords who, in their professional career, have sent adults could be diverted from prison in the first place, people to prison. I was greatly touched by the speech thus saving the justice system significant costs and by my noble and learned friend Lord Phillips. One of preventing so many lives being blighted. the points he brought to our attention was that information that people in the system should have 5.02 pm received was not passed on when it was needed most. Lord Eames (CB): My Lords, I pay tribute, as other That is where the system has fallen down—and for noble Lords have already done, to the noble Lord, many of us it has fallen down once too often. The Lord Harris, and his team. Added to the large library noble Lord, Lord Carlile, who was recently in a position of reports and books on the whole criminal justice to tell us about the situation in my own part of the system, his report has brought into focus what for United Kingdom, knows very well that the Davids of many of us is the real, focal issue that he is trying to this world, living at such a troubled period in our address, for beyond the question of self-harm, attempted history, came into a system which at times was almost suicide and, tragically, suicide in our detention centres unable to cope with the problems we faced. and prisons, he has raised fundamental issues. What is Nevertheless, I venture to suggest that David’s case the purpose of imprisonment? What is the purpose of shows the system is not beyond redemption; something the criminal justice system? What is the purpose of the can be done. What we are trying to suggest today—and way in which the courts deal with young offenders? I hope the Minister will say something about it—is At this stage in a long debate, I have two points that, despite the problems in the system, it is the simply that I want to put to the House. First, I want to attitude that we need to look at more than anything raise again this issue of the purpose and our dealing else. with those who are offenders and are imprisoned. David was 18 years of age, convicted of a very 5.09 pm serious offence and put in prison. Within six months of his incarceration, he attempted suicide and, but for Lord McNally (LD): MyLords,itisalwaysagreat the fact that it was discovered in time, he would pleasure to follow the noble and right reverend Lord, definitely have become one of the statistics of death. Lord Eames, as he gives us a glimpse of optimism and To cut a long story short, he served the remainder of of redemption. All of us who work in the criminal his sentence under certain conditions. On his release, justice system can think of personal examples of he returned to society but was a scarred and mentally individuals whose lives have been changed by the tortured man. Time passed and, because of his experience intervention of others, which is one reason why I am a at the hands of those responsible for him, those scars great supporter of mentoring. remained. However, unknown to us, another experience Like others, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Harris, in prison had affected him: the care and attention for both securing the debate and producing a report given to his particular needs by a member of the that could, if listened to, be a genuine landmark in prison staff who, in a voluntary capacity and in his advancing the case for prison reform and effective extra time, saw something in David’s life that was rehabilitation. Although the report is an independent worth helping. Three weeks ago, I visited a community review into self-inflicted deaths among 18 to 24 year-olds organisation in a certain estate in the City of Belfast, in custody, the noble Lord has, as the noble and right which helps children likely to be in contact with the reverend Lord, Lord Eames, pointed out, taken on the criminal justice system. At its head and leading it is broader challenge set out in the report’s title: “changing David. The response of the community to that prisons, saving lives”. organisation has been phenomenal. The Motion before us sets out the core messages of Now, I know that you can take individual cases and the report: to address the problems before young use them to prove a wide range of conclusions. I am people enter prison via an effective programme of simply trying to illustrate, from my own pastoral treatment and diversion; to reduce the prison population; 1365 Prisons: Young People[29 OCTOBER 2015] Prisons: Young People 1366 to improve conditions in prisons; to work upstream on services and health and education—have all embraced diversion, and on rehabilitation in custody and post- this holistic approach to diversion. I assure the noble custody so that prisoners have an option of a meaningful Lord, Lord Harris, that his approach will greatly and law-abiding life. influence the approach and policies of the YJB in the I declare my interest as chair of the Youth Justice months and years ahead. I agree with him that the Board for England and Wales. I thank my noble troubled families programme often overlaps with ours friends Lord Dholakia and Lord Carlile for their kind with regard to the challenges posed by young offenders. comments. As I listened to this I thought about what a However, this is a report for all ages—under 18s, source of advice this House is to the Minister. There is under 25s, over 25s. Its recommendations make sense my noble friend Lord Carlile’s report on youth courts far beyond its narrow remit. and the report by the noble Lord, Lord Bradley, on There is much in the report to approve of but I shall mental illness. There is the report by the noble Baroness, touch briefly on just one or two matters. First, I will Lady Young, on BAME. I am very pleased to be not try to go further than the comments of the noble working closely with her on that. There is the report Lord, Lord Bradley, on mental health services and, before us today from the noble Lord, Lord Harris, particularly, liaison and diversion services. However, I and, as the noble Baroness, Lady Young, pointed out, say to the noble Lord, Lord Judd, the noble Baroness, coming down the track is the report on looked-after Lady Healy, and others, that I think there is a little children from the noble Lord, Lord Laming, and the glimpse of optimism. The Minister, Alistair Burt, is committee on which I have the pleasure to serve. building on the record of my colleague Norman Lamb As noble Lords will know, the YJB has responsibility in putting mental health care high on the agenda. The for young offenders aged over 10—our age of criminal Youth Justice Board is working closely with NHS responsibility—until they reach the age of 18: adulthood England to bring forward a programme of early in the eyes of the law. The Harris report’s remit did not intervention. cover the under-18 secure estate, but the noble Lord Secondly, on education, the Prime Minister and the did examine the four deaths in the youth estate between Secretary of State have made major commitments to 2000 and the last self-inflicted death in 2012. In addition, make life in prison meaningful through better education the YJB willingly gave both oral and written evidence and training. The big problem here is the gap between to his committee. We made available to it our study of those high ideals and the harsh reality of delivering a all 16 such deaths that have occurred in the last safe environment in which to carry out those education 15 years in the youth estate, which was published in and training programmes. March 2014 and entitled, as the right reverend Prelate I also draw attention to a matter that has been the Bishop of Portsmouth said, Deaths of Children in raised by a number of other speakers—namely, if Custody: Action Taken, Lessons Learnt. there is one thing which really gives me concern since I The responsibility to keep young people in our care became chairman of the YJB, it is the disjoint in safe is paramount in the Youth Justice Board’s duties. information as a young person passes through the But I am also aware—this is why I was eager to take criminal justice system. We have a fear—particularly, I part in this debate—that there is not some magic suspect, on my Benches—of the big brother state that transformation at the age of 18. I recently attended a knows all too much about us. The reality is that people presentation based on work being done at University too often have to make fundamental decisions about College London on brain development, which showed the welfare, vulnerability and needs of a young person a wide variation in timings of maturity, between the with incomplete knowledge about what has happened early teens and the age of 25, as the noble Lord, Lord previously and who has dealt with that young person Bradley, said. That is why I so welcome the Harris previously. A major priority should be to ensure that report. The YJB recognises that young adults, much the journey of the child into young adulthood is like children in our youth estate, have specific needs, accompanied by as full a record as possible of their entitlements and potential. These must be addressed vulnerabilities and needs, what has happened to them and supported on an individual basis to mitigate their and what should be done for them. risk of self-harm and suicide, and to support their On staff skills, I associate myself with what has time in custody and rehabilitation. been said by one or two speakers, most recently the The Harris review endorses the benefits of a noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames. I sometimes multiagency and holistic approach to address the needs leave the secure estate in absolute awe of what the staff of those in the criminal justice system for which the do. It is not an easy environment and the young people YJB has been the pathfinder these last 15 years. I am they are dealing with are not all lovable, yet staff do proud that we now have barely 1,000 young people in tremendous work. It is important that we take custody in the secure estate, fewer than 50 of whom responsibility for saying that nobody should have to are girls. That compares with nearly 4,000 10 years go out to work thinking, “Is this the day I am going to ago. As the Harris report advocates, that has been be seriously injured doing my job of trying to keep achieved by going upstream to tackle the causes of order in a YOI or prison?”. We have to address that offending. As a result, the number of people in custody issue. and first-time entrants is now at an all-time low. This is a landmark report and an opportunity for I pay tribute to the way in which police forces and reform. These times of austerity are not the easiest police and crime commissioners have bought into times. However, it behoves us all to reflect that, during early intervention and diversion. Our other partners— the timescale covered by this report, all three parties children’s and social services departments, probation have been in government at one time or another. Like 1367 Prisons: Young People[LORDS] Prisons: Young People 1368

[LORD MCNALLY] recognise that sentencing policy and custodial practice the noble Lords, Lord Fellowes and Lord Harris, who should reflect the reality that 18 to 21 year-olds are also quoted Churchill—when he was a Liberal—I not all of a piece in terms of their developmental believe that, maturity, a point made by several Members of your “the treatment of crime and criminals is one of the most unfailing Lordships’ House in this debate. To adopt an old- tests of the civilisation of any country”. fashioned phrase, sentencing needs to be tailor-made, That is doubly true when it comes to the treatment of not merely handed down from the judicial shelf, and the young. As I said in opening, we are indebted to the the same approach is required in respect of what is noble Lord, Lord Harris, and his colleagues for their provided by way of healthcare, education and all that work. It is now incumbent on all of us with responsibility is needed to promote rehabilitation. Particular attention in these areas to heed their wise advice. is needed in respect of issues such as literacy and numeracy, and facilitating and encouraging family 5.20 pm contact, physically and remotely by telephone or Skype, Lord Beecham (Lab): My Lords, 400 years ago John where this is appropriate. That was one of the main Donne proclaimed: issues which persuaded many of us—and perhaps, in “No man is an island … any man’s death diminishes me”. the event, Mr Gove—that the secure college concept How much more are we and our justice system diminished for young offenders aged between 12 and 17 was ill by the deaths in custody of the four children and advised. 83 young adults for whom the bell tolled between It is clear that the system is struggling, with poor April 2007 and December 2013? outcomes whether young adults are housed in separate We are indebted to my noble friend Lord Harris establishments or mixed with adult offenders. The and his team for their careful investigation into the inspectorate found that local mixed prisons are finding circumstances which led to these untimely deaths; the it difficult to cope, although paradoxically it also way they have identified the failings of the policies and found that young adults felt less safe in prisons without institutions within which they occurred; and the adults. Nevertheless, the Prison Reform Trust supports recommendations they propose to improve upon an separate provision. There is clearly a debate to be had unacceptable toll of young lives. It would be churlish on this difficult issue and perhaps the Minister could not to pay tribute to Ministers for establishing the indicate how the matter might be carried forward and review and for reaching across the political divide and eventually resolved. appointing my noble friend to chair it. The report alludes to staffing numbers and the I regret I must qualify that tribute somewhat in the current pressure on staff, which no doubt contributed light of the Government’s reaction to the recent Supreme to the tragic loss of young lives which triggered its Court judgment which outlawed the segregation of commissioning. But there are also questions about the prisoners—that is, placing them in solitary confinement level of skills and the training required to secure the for more than 72 hours—including young offenders. capacity to detect and deal with emerging symptoms The Government have laid an order to amend the that can lead to self-harm and worse. The training of prison rules to extend this to 42 days and have embarked prison staff, the report states, lasts eight weeks in upon a consultation process as part of a review of the England—the shortest period in Europe. In Norway, policy, which will conclude in the new year. That will it is two years. Is there the potential to devise specific be a matter of concern for Members of your Lordships’ qualifications for employees in this sensitive area, House. especially for the newly proposed post of care and The background to the problems identified by the rehabilitation officers? I join other noble Lords in report lies in the way our criminal justice system commending that recommendation of the report. Would involves a low level of the age of criminal responsibility it not also be right to pay special consideration to the and a high level of incarceration, with the prison health needs of staff who are working in what are population virtually doubling in the past 20 years, as clearly highly stressful conditions? the noble and learned Lord, Lord Phillips of Worth There is also a need to review what is happening to Matravers, pointed out. We have, or are close to having, these young people before they begin their journey the highest prison population relative to population of through the justice and custodial system. The report any advanced country, with commensurately high costs, points out that the unhappy 87 young people whose both direct and indirect. It is clear that conditions in cases it examined had exhibited problems from an too many of our prisons and young offender institutions early age and, as my noble friend Lord Harris reminded are unsatisfactory, with overcrowding and staff shortages, us, asks reasonably, “Why did so many of them end up and that in turn these systemic failings are reflected in in custody?”. Programmes such as the Government’s unacceptably high and costly levels of reoffending. troubled families programme may help in this context I must again pay tribute to the Government for but there is surely a need for a more holistic approach recognising that rehabilitation is the key to improvement involving health, children’s and education services working in this area, with the additional bonus of reducing collaboratively at local level to identify, and seek to costs, although arguably the policies of the previous tackle, early signs of behavioural and mental health Lord Chancellor conflicted with the aspirations he problems. However, I fear that another large cut in voiced. There are welcome signs that Mr Gove may resources for those already overstretched services will take a more rounded view. follow the comprehensive spending review and the An important strand running through the report local government finance settlement in December. The and the submissions of bodies such as the Howard Ministry of Justice has an interest in these matters; I League and the Prison Reform Trust is the need to hope the Minister can assure us that he is discussing 1369 Prisons: Young People[29 OCTOBER 2015] Prisons: Young People 1370 the issue with the Department for Communities and The Government will respond to the recommendations Local Government and the Treasury. The deeper the of the Harris review once the interim chair of the cuts in these services, the greater the eventual cost to panel on deaths in custody is in position. the Ministry of Justice’s budget and to society as a This debate is not the forum for the Government’s whole. response to the review, but what has been discussed The report makes some interesting suggestions about today will certainly contribute considerably to the how overall management and evaluation of the service Government’s ongoing considerations. The Government could be conducted. I am uncertain about the proposal have been clear in their commitment to make prisons to vest the responsibility in the Justice Committee but, places of reform, rehabilitation and redemption. In in any event, I would argue for peer review—by which the future, prisons will not merely be places of punishment I do not mean another report from my noble friend— but will give those who find themselves incarcerated within the service, including experts and scrutiny by the chance to change. local authorities, for example by the combined authorities involved in the devolution process now under way. In This debate has ranged far and wide, dealing not the north-east, we undertook such an exercise in respect simply with 18 to 24 year-olds but with the life journeys of the mental health of offenders some time ago. The of many young offenders before they reach that age. It present system of independent local oversight does has dealt, to some extent, with older offenders, who not appear to be effective. now make up an increasing proportion of our prison population. As the noble Lord, Lord McNally, said, The report contains a host of recommendations, this House represents a significant source of wisdom many of which have been raised in this debate. Time for the Government. and the patience of the House do not permit me to refer to more of them, nor can the Minister be expected Crime is falling overall. Nevertheless, we know that to cover today every issue that the report raises or each more must be done to divert individuals even before proposal it makes. We look forward to the Government’s they enter the criminal justice system. Progress has detailed response to the report and hope, as my noble been made on this front. The newly expanded troubled friend Lord Harris intimated, that it will not be long families programme is now gearing up to work with delayed—and that we can find a way to discuss it in another 400,000 families during this Parliament. The detail, ideally in conjunction with the Justice Select programme helps families struggling with multiple Committee. I hope that in their response, the Government issues, which now include parental offending, by will look at what seems to be the best practice in other co-ordinating services better to get to the root cause of jurisdictions. In that context I invite the Minister, as I their problems. Where crime is an issue in these families, invited his predecessor, the noble Lord, Lord McNally, it means we are getting a better idea of the reasons to look at the experience of Finland. In the mean time behind it, and thus a better chance of intervening I reiterate my thanks, and I believe the thanks of the early to try and stop it happening again. I note the whole House, to my noble friend Lord Harris and comment made by the noble Lord, Lord Harris, about thank all Members who have contributed to this important the focus being perhaps on troubled adolescents as debate. much as on troubled families. We know that 41% of prisoners observed domestic 5.28 pm violence as a child and that 24% had, at some point, been in care as children. The noble Lord, Lord Adebowale, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord emphasised the problems that those who have been in Faulks) (Con): My Lords, I join the noble Lord, Lord care can encounter and the fact that they so often find Beecham, in thanking all noble Lords who have spoken themselves in prison. He will be aware that the noble in this debate. I especially thank the noble Lord, Lord Lord, Lord Laming, is currently leading a Prison Harris of Haringey, for convening it and I welcome it Reform Trust review into care leavers, and we are as an opportunity to highlight the Government’s approach expecting that report in 2016. to the important issues which his report raises. I also specifically thank the noble Lord, Lord Harris, I also pay tribute to the work done by the noble and the Independent Advisory Panel on Deaths in Baroness, Lady Young, in the Young review, published Custody for its review into the self-inflicted deaths in December 2014, which looked at improved outcomes in custody of 18 to 24 year-olds, which was published for black and Muslim young men. I am glad that she in July of this year. I pay tribute to its thorough and had a satisfactory meeting with my ministerial colleague comprehensive work. The noble Lord and his colleagues Andrew Selous and note her observations about the have given the Government a great deal to think about importance of statistics to inform trends. The next by their recommendations, which are being considered publication of statistics on race and the criminal justice with the utmost care. As the noble Lord stated, there system is scheduled to be released on 26 November are no easy answers to these questions and the 2015. We value the scrutiny that these figures encourage recommendations require a considerable level of care into this crucial area, and I agree with her that without and attention. examining and understanding these figures in an open and transparent way, we will not be able to make Noble Lords may be aware—the noble Lord, Lord sufficient progress. Beecham, referred to this—that the recommendations are being considered in the context of a Justice Select The percentages I referred to demonstrate the Committee inquiry into young adult offenders in the significance of the work, which has been led by my criminal justice system, announced in July, as well as colleague, the Minister of State for Children and the Secretary of State’s wider prison reform considerations. Families, aimed at improving child protection, supporting 1371 Prisons: Young People[LORDS] Prisons: Young People 1372

[LORD FAULKS] generation of GPS tags, the technology for which is children in care and speeding up adoption—all measures currently being tested. A comprehensive review of the which in the long term will be likely to impact positively electronic monitoring programme is under way to on rates of offending, by reducing the conditions in make sure that an efficient service is delivered. We are which we know that offending behaviour flourishes. confident that the resulting system will provide the Once an offence has been committed, diversions highest levels of technology available. The ability to away from the criminal justice system may apply. locate and track offenders will be a valuable tool, Liaison and diversion services, now operating at police allowing us to keep a closer watch on them without stations and courts across half the country, identify having expensively to imprison them. people of all ages who have mental health issues, The law makes it clear that custody should always learning disabilities, substance misuse issues and other be the last resort for a sentence. The custody threshold vulnerabilities such as debt or homelessness when they test, which all recorders and magistrates are taught first come into contact with the criminal justice system. about and is set out in the Criminal Justice Act 2003, Here, I pay tribute to the work of the noble Lord, requires a court to be satisfied that the seriousness of Lord Bradley. As he knows, and by way of response to the offence is such that only a custodial sentence is a question posed by the noble Baroness, Lady Healey, appropriate. Only if community orders or fines are this is being trialled across more than 50% of England. considered inappropriate can the court impose a custodial Further rollout is under consideration, and similar term. services for referral to mental health and learning The noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, made the point disability services have been developed in Wales. that sometimes sentences are too short and that in the Reports from liaison and diversion services help to time when a young offender is in prison, nothing much inform charging or disposal decisions by the police can be achieved. At various times, Governments have and inform magistrates and judges when sentencing. tried to specify the length so that it is not too short or One theme that has emerged from the debate is the too long, but it is a relevant factor and sentencing importance of continuity of information and the efficient tribunals should very much bear it in mind. transfer of information about individuals, so that those When an offender does go into custody, it is important sentencing or dealing with young offenders have all that we rehabilitate that person so that they do not the information at their fingertips. Liaison and diversion return to prison. That is why the coalition Government services can also identify the available treatment and took steps to introduce supervision for offenders released support options, which may allow diversion away from from short sentences. In the past, such offenders were custody. released at the halfway point of their sentence with no I turn to reducing the prison population—a theme supervision and no support. It is perhaps not surprising mentioned by several noble Lords. Many offenders are that this group had high reoffending rates. Following not subject to those diversions and, unfortunately, end the Offender Rehabilitation Act 2014, these offenders up in front of the courts. I should confirm that the are now subject to a year of supervision in the community, principle of judicial independence is vital and sentencing designed to break the cycle of offending that leads to decisions must lie in the hands of magistrates and short custodial sentences in the first place. judges alone—although, as the noble and learned I entirely accept what the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, Lord, Lord Phillips, emphasised, it is most important said about the importance of self-respect in young that timely information is available for sentencing offenders and what the noble and right reverend Lord, tribunals to enable them to sentence on the best possible Lord Eames, said on the importance of someone information. It is not appropriate for Ministers to showing a bit of interest, as in the case of David which influence the decisions in individual court cases, beyond he told the House about. setting the framework within which courts operate. There are some hopeful signs about young offenders. The noble and learned Lord sentenced a number of The noble Lord, Lord McNally, spoke of the significant people for long periods in his distinguished time as a reduction in the number of young offenders in custody judge. As a much more junior judge, I have sentenced at the moment. Probably, the general population would offenders to prison for shorter periods. He correctly be unaware how small that population is: 1,000 of identifies that sentences have been getting longer. There them, with a very small number of young girls— are a number of reasons for this. There is the possibility approximately 50. So there are hopeful signs. of media pressure. I think that there was also something Noble Lords discussed improving conditions within of an arms race between political parties on the matter. prisons. Where the courts consider the crime to be No political party can claim innocence of that. There serious enough, of course prison must be the punishment. was a stress on trying to be tough with offenders. I When offenders are punished by being sent to prison, think that it is probably safe to say that at the moment the loss of liberty is the punishment. However, we have there is not an inappropriate battle between parties to a duty to make prisons safe, secure and dignified so sound unnecessarily firm on offenders. I genuinely that offenders can be rehabilitated within them. think that there may be an opportunity for there not I join other noble Lords in paying tribute to the to be an undue escalation of prison sentences simply work of the Prison Service. I am grateful for the to respond to some perceived political imperative. observations of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop However, we recognise that judges and the public of Portsmouth in that regard. In challenging conditions, need to have confidence in community sentences. Where the men and women who work in and for prisons do a offenders are assessed by courts as being of no danger fantastic job, keeping society safe from those who to others, we will aim to increase the use of electronic would pose a danger and rehabilitating inmates so monitoring. We are committed to delivering a new that they can once again contribute to society. 1373 Prisons: Young People[29 OCTOBER 2015] Prisons: Young People 1374

In the context of the report of the noble Lord, Lord break the cycle of offending. Of course, we do not Harris, it is of course a tragedy if any young person want to push them into a job, as described by the commits suicide. It is also a real shock to the staff who noble Lord, Lord Judd, but we are keen to increase the work in these young offender institutions. They take a number of employers who engage with prisoners and long time to recover from these instances, often knowing offenders to offer them employment opportunities. We the young offenders well. The work they do goes hold an Employers’ Forum for Reducing Re-offending, unnoticed, but it is absolutely vital to the function of chaired by the CEO of Timpson, James Timpson, our criminal justice system and deserves recognition. which brings together employers who support the The noble Lords, Lord Carlile and Lord Fellowes, employment of offenders to share their experiences referred to improving conditions, and we know that and promote the benefits of employing offenders to there is much to do. The Secretary of State set a clear other businesses. We have also built up a relationship direction in this area. Major estate reforms will remove with Halfords that is also worthy of note. I have had a those facilities that no longer suit the needs of a chance to meet representatives from both Halfords modern Prison Service from our estate and free up and Timpson, and they both stress how often these funds for the construction of modern prisons. In these employees turn out to be extremely good, very keen to new builds, we can design out the flaws in existing have the job and stick at it and soon completely structures that facilitate drug-taking and violence. Such absorbed into the working community. a project is already under way in north Wales. Lord Judd: I am very grateful for the Minister’s Furthermore, we continually work to make prisons response on that point—and of course a lot of positive as safe as possible for both offenders and staff. One work is done and results are achieved. However, would improvement in this area is the Serious Crime Act 2015, he pick up the point that one must not drive out the which brought in two new offences: being in possession imperative of recognising that some of these youngsters of a knife or other offensive weapon in a prison are just not prepared or ready for work and need without authorisation; and the throwing of items over expenditure in terms of the support that needs to be a prison wall without authorisation. The Act will provided to enable them to join the workforce? reduce the incidence of violence in prisons and increase our ability to safely and securely rehabilitate prisoners. Lord Faulks: I entirely accept that—not everybody We also recognise the significant problems caused is ready for that sort of job, as is recognised by the by psychoactive substances known as “legal highs” in potential employers. But some are, and if they are it is prisons. They have been linked to specific acts of certainly an advantageous step to take. violence and erratic behaviour. Therefore, we introduced Before I turn to the subject at the heart of the a number of measures to tackle the use of psychoactive report from the noble Lord, Lord Harris, I would like substances in prison. Operationally, we deploy a robust to deal with the question raised by the noble Lord, range of security measures to reduce the availability of Lord Fellowes, about prisoners’ votes, but it is a complex legal highs. More than 500 specialist dogs work in one. I hope he will accept the fact that, at the moment, prisons, searching cells, visitors and perimeters. Closed the Government do not believe that prisoners should visits through a glass screen may be used and we are have the vote, but I recognise that there are different exploring the use of body scanners to reduce the views on that issue. threat posed by drugs smuggled into prisons, including the threat presented by so-called plugging. There has As to the subject at the heart of the report from the been a major push on communications to ensure that noble Lord, Lord Harris, whenever a prisoner, of governors and staff are aware of the associated dangers, whatever age, takes their own life, it is a dreadful and and that prisoners are aware of the consequences of tragic event. We recognise that prisons hold a particularly taking psychoactive substances. vulnerable population, so the prevention of such deaths is a priority for the Ministry of Justice, and NOMS. The Secretary of State clearly set out his commitment Staff do an incredible job of keeping prisoners safe to liberating offenders through learning. Time spent in and prevent many prisoners from taking their own prison must be used advantageously. We must offer lives. Every day, prisons manage around 2,000 prisoners prisoners the chance to obtain the qualifications and deemed to be at a heightened risk of suicide or self-harm. skills that will equip them to lead successful lives We know that the factors that are associated with outside prison. This is a vital part of the Government’s self-harm and self-inflicted deaths can become more reform agenda. We know that one in five prisons has pronounced in prison, but there is no single factor an inadequate standard of education and two in five which explains why self-inflicted deaths in prisons require improvement. The Secretary of State have increased, and no simple solution to solve it. commissioned Dame Sally Coates to chair a review All prisons are required to have procedures in place into the quality of education in prisons which will for the identification, support and management of report in the spring. In the mean time, we have a those at risk of harm to themselves, known as the number of steps and measures under way to improve ACCT process. I note the comments from the noble support for prisoners with learning disabilities, develop Lord, Lord Harris, on that matter; a review of the more creative teaching methods and collect better process will report by the end of this month. We work management information. closely with health providers to support prisoners with Supporting offenders into meaningful employment mental health conditions. NOMS has a long-standing is a vital aspect of the Government’s approach. This and close partnership with the Samaritans, whose supports those who have committed a crime to provide volunteers support prisoners to become listeners, providing an effective contribution towards society, helping to trained peer support to fellow prisoners who are 1375 Prisons: Young People[LORDS] Advertising Standards Authority 1376

[LORD FAULKS] of the physical condition of the prison estate. I know experiencing distress. On the issue of mental health, that it is a matter that the Secretary of State has NHS England has developed national specifications considered. for health and justice services. All health services for My noble friend Lord Judd spoke movingly about prisons must focus on delivering improved health and the fear that some prisoners have about leaving prison well-being for offenders. Learning lessons is crucial to and highlighted the need to rehabilitate—a theme reducing self-inflicted deaths. We welcome the work of which I hope the Secretary of State will also pick up. the Prisons and Probation Ombudsman. The noble Baroness, Lady Young of Hornsey, rightly There is a great deal more to be done, and a great focused on issues of race, religion and gender. Those deal more that I should like to say in response to the must underpin our work in this area. I was interested report, but time is against me. The report from the in the suggestion made by my noble friend Lord noble Lord, Lord Harris, requires and will receive a Beecham about a greater role for local government detailed response. It is unfortunate that the final review and, in particular, for combined authorities in the could not be presented at the recent ministerial board—he oversight of the criminal justice system and prisons. I referred to that in opening—but I understand that the hope it will be possible to take that forward. two members of the review team were present, and I conclude by thanking the Minister for responding there was a long discussion on deaths in custody, with so thoroughly to many of the issues without actually contributions from the director of NOMS and an telling us anything about the final direction of travel. external expert on suicide. I assure the noble Lord and He told us—and I would have been shocked if he had the House that the Secretary of State has given the said the opposite—that the recommendations of my review careful consideration and the contents of his review are being considered with the utmost care. It report and what noble Lords have said in this valuable would indeed be shocking if the Ministry of Justice, debate will greatly assist the Ministry of Justice. I having commissioned this report, was not considering thank all noble Lords. it with the utmost care. The Minister listed a large number of reviews, and they will all, no doubt, have to 5.50 pm be considered. He made one point I found puzzling. Lord Harris of Haringey: My Lords, I am grateful He said that it is necessary to wait for the appointment to all noble Lords who have contributed to this debate. of an interim chair of the independent advisory panel. It has been a very important and thorough debate, and That post has not been advertised and, by its nature, is I am grateful to everyone. I thought that the noble interim. Surely it would be much better, given that the Lord, Lord Carlile, put it very usefully when he said post has been vacant for a month, to advertise the that the Government need no more evidence, and I permanent post. It is surprising that that has not listened with interest to the long list of reviews that the happened. Secretary of State has commissioned. All of those will The Minister said that he wants to see that prisoners no doubt have to be considered before a final decision have the chance to change in prison. I hope we will can be taken on these matters. also see that the Government are trying to ensure that The noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, the young people who are not yet in prison—who have highlighted the importance of defining the purpose of not yet encountered the criminal justice system—have prisons—a matter which was also set out clearly by the a chance to change before that. noble and learned Lord, Lord Phillips of Worth Motion agreed. Matravers—and highlighted the importance of recognising that the sentence of the court is the deprivation of liberty and we must now focus on ensuring that prisons Advertising Standards Authority deliver what the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, talked Question for Short Debate about: a chance to change in prison. The noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, 5.54 pm also highlighted the importance of individual care and Asked by Baroness Deech attention. That was also articulated by the noble Lord, To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans Lord Dholakia, and my noble friend Lord Beecham, they have to review the governance of the Advertising both of whom endorsed, I think, the principle of the Standards Authority. custody and rehabilitation officer and a more professional approach to these matters. Baroness Deech (CB): My Lords, I have two interests My noble friend Lord Bradley talked about the to declare. The first is as a former claimant, partly importance of effective information sharing, a theme successful, to the ASA—an event that triggered my which was picked up by a number of noble Lords, interest in its nature and procedures. The second is as including the noble Lords, Lord Adebowale and Lord a regulator myself of many years’ standing. I have McNally.My noble friend also highlighted the importance regulated the BBC, IVF,student complaints and barristers; of liaison and diversion. That point was picked up by indeed, if it moves and needs regulation, I seem to get my noble friend Lady Healy of Primrose Hill. The the job. I have immersed myself in what is good right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Portsmouth rightly regulation and what is not, and this afternoon’s topic spoke about the importance of maturity and brain is accordingly part of a wider debate about successful development, a point which came across in so much of modern regulation. I am entirely consistent on this the evidence we received. It has got to underpin so topic; for years I have called for the BBC—specifically, many different aspects of government policy. The its complaints system, which deals with topics that go noble Lord, Lord Fellowes, reminded us of the importance to the heart of the reputation of the BBC—to be dealt 1377 Advertising Standards Authority[29 OCTOBER 2015] Advertising Standards Authority 1378 with by an independent body and not by three trustees should act according to the principles of natural justice, closeted with their editorial adviser at the top of a most notably showing all the material to both sides, labyrinthine process. which the ASA does not. The era of self-regulation is almost over. No doubt To reinforce its position, the ASA is a member of some speakers in this debate will tell us, quite properly, the European Advertising Standards Alliance, which that the ASA’s rulings are good and that it has been a openly promotes self-regulation and is chaired by none success for decades. That may be one view, but what other than the CEO of the ASA. The ASA structure matters today is perception and the distancing of may mean that the UK is in breach of European vested interests from the profession or industry that is Union directive 114 of 2006, which requires recourse being regulated. The public demand no less. The to a court or administrative tribunal as a remedy. Shipman inquiry brought about a sea change in medical Does this matter? I will give an example. Right now regulation; the Clementi review ended the legal profession’s there is intense interest in obesity and sugar, and self-regulation; the Etherington report will lead to the already it is being suggested that there can be no end of fundraising self-regulation. The press, the BBC credibility in the ASA’s rulings about sweet stuffs and to some extent, and the ASA are the remaining self- junk food since it is perceived to be in the hands of the regulators in that most important area of our life— advertisers. information—and we have seen what vested interests That necessary trust cannot be established without are doing to attempts to reform the mode of press radical reform of the self-regulatory model. That is regulation. more important than ever before because of the Sir Brian Leveson analysed the insufficiencies of widespread nature of new technology, bringing ads self-regulation in his report on the press. The ASA into and over an ever-increasing spectrum and making suffers from all those defects: the control of the funders them particularly unavoidable by children. over appointment and setting standards. The ASA is If the ASA observed the rules of natural justice and not a government agency, not elected, and not overseen. gave adequate reasons, and treated both sides equally, It is funded by the advertising industry through the there might be trust, but more often than not the levy collected by the Advertising Standards Board of reasoning of the rulings are guesswork and subjective. Finance—ASBOF. The chair of the ASA is appointed As I will show, there is a lack of consistency in by ASBOF.The council members appear to be appointed judgments. Some take an impressionistic line; others by the chair alone, and the fact that the majority are are more objective with scientific input, but only a not connected with the advertising industry does not handful of experts are listed on the ASA’s website and make the ASA independent in the regulatory sense. there are no guidelines on whether an expert is going The codes of practice are written by an industry to be called in on the scientific or political matter committee, the Committee of Advertising Practice— under review. CAP—which shares an executive with the ASA. Were they not fundamentally so illustrative of lack Therefore the code-writing, administration, of reasoning, some of the ASA rulings on offensive appointments and funding are entirely in the hands of material would be risible. Occasionally the ASA is in the advertising industry. There is no external input at full Mary Whitehouse mode and objects to any ad all, save for the very tiny consumer input, the Advertising which in its view suggests sexuality coupled with women Advisory Committee, which gives advice only to the in uniform—police, stewardesses or nurses. An ad is Broadcasting Committee of Advertising Practice, and allowed to be “sexually suggestive” but not “overtly can be ignored after the advice is received. The chair sexual”. Your Lordships and I may be out of touch and council members of the ASA double up as the with this sort of categorisation. company directors of the ASA with “oversight”. The At other times the ASA is very relaxed about what ASA is not subject to freedom of information requests. members of the public see as pornographic pictures of Three industry panels advise the CAP and the ASA. It naked women, and the rulings turn on the ASA’s view is not accountable to anyone outside the industry—indeed, of which bits of the woman are on display—her facial it is hermetically sealed. Successful judicial review is expression, stance and gaze, or the position of the very difficult, as it is directed only to the lawfulness of item she is holding to advertise. Holding a giant perfume the ultimate review by the independent reviewer—one bottle is deemed provocative, but not a wrench wielded person—and in general cannot look at the reasonableness by a woman, who was deemed to be only mildly of the ASA decision itself. sexual. A Ryanair cabin crew charity calendar ad at a For these structural reasons the ASA does not time when undressed women in calendars were all the qualify to be a full member of the Ombudsman rage was deemed offensive because the women were Association, which, like Leveson, requires members to wearing underwear and looking directly at the reader, be independent of those whom they investigate and but naked women with a look of defiance are okay. that they have a minimum term of appointment of Never was consumer input more needed than in those five years so that they are not under pressure when it types of rulings, together with some intelligent reasoning comes to the question of renewal; ASA members have to dispel the notion of randomness. An ad calling on a three-year renewable term with a salary sufficiently women to be beach-body ready, showing a model in a generous to make a second term attractive. The bikini, was okay, but an ad on a Polish-language Ombudsman Association requires that remuneration website showing an ideal man’s body, with the suggestion and employment should not be capable of being adversely that it could be swiftly achieved, was not. The mind affected by those who are the subject of regulation, boggles at the conversations that must have gone on in that it should be accountable to an outside body, and the ASA offices. 1379 Advertising Standards Authority[LORDS] Advertising Standards Authority 1380

[BARONESS DEECH] This role of complainer gives me some sympathy On questions of race, religion and politics, the ASA with the noble Baroness. I reckon that I have a hit rate sometimes seems out of its depth. All of this could be of about 90% with my complaints—that is not surprising, made sense of with a consumer-led and non-industry- because I know from my experience on the council funded body that gave considered reasons for its rulings. what is likely to win. However, it is a very bruising What is the ASA’s purpose? Is it to prevent experience to lose, when the arguments against an ad misinformation being given to the public by scrutinising which the complainer finds so compelling are rejected all claims objectively; is it to hold the balance between by the council in its wisdom. Therefore, I quite understand the complainants and the advertiser; or is it to protect why the noble Baroness is injured still by the fate of the industry or the consumer? The time has come, her complaint against the ad concerning Medical Aid after 50 years of lagging behind best practice in regulation, for Palestinians, given that only four of the 22 complaints to bring the ASA into the 21st century. My suggestions she made were ultimately upheld. We know how deeply draw heavily on the Leveson inquiry and other studies that must have bit, because as recently as 2012, in a of good regulation. lecture at Gresham College, the noble Baroness said This is what the ASA should do. The chair and that, board members should be appointed in a genuinely “the Advertising Standards Authority seems to work well as a self open and transparent, independent way without influence regulator”. from the industry or government. The appointment What has changed since then is on the record. Noble panel for the chair, who should be independent of any Lords know that they should not cross the noble political party, should follow Nolan principles and Baroness lightly, and she has since mounted a sustained include, for example, the Commissioner for Public campaign against the governance of the ASA. Appointments. Board members should be similarly I understand that the noble Baroness has circulated appointed for one non-renewable term, and the funding to some noble Lords an 18-point charge sheet against settlement should be for long enough to reduce industry the ASA. I expect that the noble Baroness, thoughtful influence. The code drafting should include a majority as ever, did not send it to me because she did not want of independent members. Twenty-first century governance me to splutter into my cornflakes. requires a board with non-industry individuals to oversee the council. There should be an appeal system I do not have time to deal with all 18 points, but I with more members and a wider remit. All the material focus instead on the points made by the noble Baroness should be shared with both sides and neither side when she asked a Parliamentary Question on the should be allowed to spin out the proceedings by subject on 29 June this year, and which she repeated in ignoring deadlines for response. There should also be her speech this afternoon. She said: clear guidelines about the use of experts. “There is no obligation to share material with both sides. The If the ASA will not do that, one has to ask: why authority sometimes fails to seek expertise and evidence when necessary, fails to give adequate reasons for its judgments, fails to not? A statutory body is unlikely to be any more follow precedents”.—[Official Report, 29/6/15; col. 1804.] expensive or complicated but will be needed if self- regulation is not abandoned. We do not want red tape I do not want to be unfair, but to me, there is a smell to but regulation is still demanded where the welfare, those arguments: that of a lawyer trying to find lawyerly rights and future of the public would be at risk without solutions to problems that she has perceived. The it. The rise of social media and the internet make it noble Baroness is taking a process that is designed for essential that there is a public and reasoned grip on a lay person to use and seeking to turn it into a advertising. quasi-legal system. I shall explain why that seems to me to be a gross mistake. 6.05 pm Let me deal in turn with the points she made in the PQ. There is no obligation to share material. Instead, Lord Lipsey (Lab): My Lords, this is a very welcome the ASA executive provides a concise summary of the debate tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Deech. In points made by each side, checks with both sides Britain, we spend much too much time denigrating the before the matter goes to council that they do not feel things that we do badly and too little time advertising misrepresented, and, often, corrects its summary. That the things that we do well. Advertising regulation, I way, one does not have to go through huge piles of shall argue this afternoon, is a jewel in our crown. papers to find out what the argument is about. That is Therefore, I welcome the opportunity to deal with not legality at work, but common sense. some—unfortunately there is such a lot so I cannot deal with all of it—of the well-meaning, but in my The noble Baroness said that the authority fails to view utterly misplaced, criticism of the Advertising seek expertise. It does not; it gets it when it needs it. I Standards Authority and its governance, as advanced was recently discussing with the ASA where it might by the noble Baroness. appropriately get impartial advice on my special subject— I, too, have been a regulator, but in this matter I am racing tipsters’ advertising, on which, at some time, I a gamekeeper turned poacher. I was a member of the will bore the House. But it rightly and deliberately council of the ASA for six years, first under my noble does not do so when a lay person can perfectly well friend Lord Borrie and then under the noble Lord, comprehend the arguments—something at which the Lord Smith. Since then, I have been a serial complainer ASA’s superb young staff is exceptionally skilled. against ads that seem to me to offend against the code. It is said that the ASA fails to give adequate reasons. Indeed, I was told a while ago that I was in the top 10 Well, I know that it failed to convince the noble complainers in Britain, and I expect to take the gold Baroness on her case, but as someone who has large medal before too long. numbers of these cases each year, I find its reasoning is 1381 Advertising Standards Authority[29 OCTOBER 2015] Advertising Standards Authority 1382 adequate even when I disagree with it. Of course, if I am genuinely sorry that the noble Baroness is you do disagree, you can go off to the independent among the 15% who are dissatisfied. Some time, I will reviewer, Sir Hayden Phillips, who is a former civil share with her some of the experiences that I have had, servant of great distinction and judgment, complain too, when I have had complaints turned down. But about it and get it reconsidered if he is satisfied on the there is an old saw that we should bear in mind: some point you are making. Finally, it is said that it does not people are never satisfied. No system will satisfy everyone follow precedents. Well that is the real giveaway.Precedents, and I think the ASA is doing extremely well to satisfy which are beloved of judges are often appropriate in as many people as it has. The Motion in the name of law. But in the case of advertising, as I know from my the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, asks the Government time on the council, each case is different. The facts what plans they have to review the governance of the are different. One man’s misplaced monkey wrench on ASA. I profoundly hope that in replying, the noble a lady is another woman’s disgraceful sexual invitation. Earl, Lord Courtown, will say, “Absolutely none”. It These cases can be decided only on the facts. There ain’t broke, so let us not try to fix it. cannot be a general rule on sexual representation that catches all of these things. 6.14 pm Of course, the noble Baroness disagrees with the Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD): My Lords, I judgments that are made. She said so. She would like would also like to thank the noble Baroness, Lady more ads to be banned. She did not produce any Deech, for tabling this debate. Even though there are evidence that the public feel the same way, and we will not many people here, there is obviously a rumbustious come to the public in a minute. I cannot think of a feeling about it almost before we begin. I feel somewhat better way of deciding complaints than having 13 very intimidated speaking after the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, serious people concentrating closely on the arguments, and before the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Finsbury, with the ads set out before them, considering them in the eminent chairman of the Advertising Standards the most succinct and objective way. I would certainly Authority, and therefore I shall get the nice words out prefer that to leaving it to the noble Baroness to decide before I deal with the problems that I feel there are what we may or may not see. with it. The noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, talked about the Of course, the ASA observes the rule of law. On Advertising Standards Authority being—I think the 20 occasions, advertisers, mostly commercial advertisers, words he used were—the jewel in the crown. In the few no doubt egged on by their legal advisers who were words that I am going to contribute to the debate, I looking forward to their fees, have sought judicial want to say that there is an essential flaw in the jewel, review. Of those, 18 of the 20 were wholly won by the and that flaw is not something that the Government ASA and one partly because judges, thank God, are should ignore. However, I shall start with the theme people with common sense. I understand that the enumerated by the noble Baroness, Lady Deech; that noble Baroness’s explanation is that judicial review is, the rulings of the Advertising Standards Authority. does not go widely enough. Hey ho, here we go. That Despite the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, means more of the court’s time, more expensive lawyers, I believe that many of them show a failure of self- more angels dancing on the heads of pins all, so far as regulation. They reflect inadequate reasoning for decisions I can tell, to no possible practical gain. which seem to change. One of the huge advantages of the present system is The ASA ruling on MAC Cosmetics was essentially that it brings about a rough equality of armaments. As on posters featuring pictures of an actress with pictures a complainant, I can pursue my complaint without of her clothed lower body—specifically, pictures of worrying too much about the advertisers’ lawyers. If her clothed crotch. When asked, the ASA said that the changes sought by the noble Baroness were made, they were not offensive. Whereas a Ryanair advert—the that would start to go. I am not sure that I could go on noble Baroness, Lady Deech, mentioned Ryanair, but complaining because I could not face having to read this is a different advert; obviously the company is through the vast chunks of material that she thinks pushing the boundaries—showed a model dressed in a should be made available. There are huge legal short skirt posing in a schoolroom. It was banned for submissions, which is bureaucracy run amok, in order being provocative. Personally, I cannot see how these to consider what is often a very simple point. There are consistent decisions unless the judgments of the would be more and more cases in which the big Advertising Standards Authority are dependent on battalions with their deep pockets would get their way, whether they are turned on by an adult model or by to no benefit to the public. someone posing as a schoolgirl. This is the point raised by earlier speakers: it really depends on which Of all the things that the noble Baroness said, the group of people in the ASA is making the decision. thing that I most strongly disagree with is what she There is a great inconsistency. said about the public. What she identifies as the faults Then there was confusion regarding a television of the present system are in fact its strengths—informality, advert for safe cycling in Scotland. Was it harmful and simplicity, a remedy open to all and not just to those irresponsible to show a cyclist without a helmet and who can bring money to bear and have great influence. safety attire cycling down the middle of a road? At That is why the Advertising Standards Authority has first the complaint was upheld, but five months later such strong public support. Some 75% of those who the adjudication was replaced, making the complaint complain are either very or quite satisfied with the not upheld. The advert was apparently now “not ASA, which is far higher than any other regulator with socially irresponsible”. I maintain that at times confusion which it is compared. seems to reign in the ASA. 1383 Advertising Standards Authority[LORDS] Advertising Standards Authority 1384

Lord Smith of Finsbury (Non-Afl): Is it not a The ASA is funded by the industry; it is good that strength of a system where, if a regulatory body the Government do not have to fund it. Its chair is recognises that it has got something wrong, it can appointed by the Advertising Standards Board of actually put it right? Finance. In this case, it is a very good chair, but it is nice and comfy. Just because there is a good chair now Lord Palmer of Childs Hill: I thank the noble Lord does not necessarily mean that the chairs will always for that. Indeed it is a strength, but it is also an be as acceptable to many of us. The ASA is not subject inconsistency. It shows that there is a set of people in to requests under freedom of information, which it the ASA who are making decisions and then would be in another guise. What is required is: governance presumably another set of people come along and by a board mainly from outside the industry; an say, “That decision was not correct”. It does not appeal system; and—dare I mention it?—transparency. generate respect for the decisions. When the Minister This could be achieved at the same cost by a statutory replies, will he say whether it matters that there is or consumer-led body funded by a levy on members. a lack of consistency in judgments or changes are In this case, it is funded by a levy on members on a made, which the noble Lord, Lord Smith, thinks is a board that is self-regulated and which is not what we virtue? Also, are there adequate guidelines about should be aiming for in this century. the use of experts in scientific and political beliefs? The noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, mentioned a particular 6.23 pm Middle Eastern question which I do not have to hand, Lord Smith of Finsbury: My Lords, I must begin by but are there experts from all sides of what is a ticklish declaring a very firm interest in this matter as chairman problem for everyone in the international sector? I do of the Advertising Standards Authority. not know, and perhaps the Minister can comment on At the outset, let us remind ourselves of the overall that. picture. The ASA has been regulating ads in the UK The noble Baroness, Lady Deech, mentioned in for the last 53 years, and doing so very successfully. passing the Leveson inquiry into press self-regulation, Last year we dealt with more than 37,000 complaints and its drawbacks are a useful parallel to the ASA. I relating to 17,300 adverts. In addition to responding want to speak in a little more detail about that in the to complaints, we also initiated—of our own initiative— time I have than the noble Baroness, Lady Deech. Like 1,600 cases to make sure that the advertising codes the much-criticised Press Complaints Commission, were being complied with. Out of this, last year 3,384 the ASA has a chair appointed by the funding body, ads were banned, removed or amended. If anyone and an independent reviewer with a very limited remit. thinks that the ASA is toothless, just look at this past Leveson—vol. 1, page 219—criticised this model and week when we banned ads by some of the major lack of interest in and input from the public. He companies in this country, including Boots, Bet365 criticised press regulation because the standards were and Coral. We act without fear or favour. In addition, set by the editors. last year we gave more than 194,000 pieces of advice The same is true of the ASA. The code is drafted or training to advertisers in order to make sure that entirely by advertisers. On page 1,624 of Leveson, he they got it right in the first place. said that the ultimate code should be approved by an All of this happens at no cost at all to the public independent body. That is what the ASA should do as purse; it is funded by a 0.1% voluntary levy across the well. Leveson in vol. 4, page 1,759, says that good advertising spend. We provide a one-stop shop for self-regulation requires, complaints about advertising in all media, including “that the Chair and members of the Board are appointed in a print, press, leaflets, cinema, television and radio, as genuinely open, transparent and independent way, without any well as online and social media. The self-regulatory influence from industry”. system is able to respond to developments in the The chair should be independent of any political party advertising world and in society much more quickly and an appointment panel should be used, including than a statutory system could. As the noble Lord, people such as the Commissioner for Public Lord Lipsey, pointed out, when we asked those who Appointments, for chair and board members, as brought complaints to us whether they were satisfied mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Deech. with the way they were dealt with, even of those who The Advertising Standards Authority, despite its were disappointed that we did not uphold their complaint eminent chair who I accept is doing a thoroughly good 75% were very or quite satisfied with the process we job—I have no criticism of the noble Lord, Lord went through. Smith—offends against all these regulation criteria. I realise that of course the noble Baroness is not Maybe it manages it but it does not make it right. The one of the 75%. It is worth noting that in her own case, question for noble Lords and for the Minister, which is which triggered her recent campaign against the ASA, a point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, is she brought 22 separate items of complaint about an whether the practice of self-regulation is no longer the ad by Medical Aid for Palestinians. This was a highly accepted norm. complex case in an even more highly controversial We have talked about Leveson and the press. Now area of public concern. Some of it related to matters we are talking about the ASA. We mentioned the of fact; some of it to matters of competing judgment. Shipman inquiry, which altered medical regulation. It needed very careful consideration. As well as to the We mentioned the Clementi review, which altered the ASA council, it also went to the independent reviewer, legal profession’s self-regulation. There is also the Sir Hayden Phillips. Only four of the 22 points were Etherington report, which heralds the demise of self- upheld, but no one can say that careful consideration regulation in fundraising. was not given. 1385 Advertising Standards Authority[29 OCTOBER 2015] Advertising Standards Authority 1386

On one matter, I accept that the noble Baroness has trading standards; on occasion we refer recalcitrant a point, or at least part of a point. She believes that we advertisers to trading standards. Thirdly, we have a should have brought in outside experts to advise on robust and independent review process in place. Fourthly, her case. We do bring in expert advice on some cases, we are, of course, subject to judicial review. As the normally to assist on detailed technical or scientific noble Lord noted, in 53 years we have failed in judicial evidence. We did so in 16 cases out of 900 investigations review on only one and a half occasions. Finally, we last year. However, in a matter of political controversy, have issued a commitment to good regulation, which what would count as an expert? Who would qualify as is published and available to be viewed by anyone. We an expert on all the passionately argued debates about have committed ourselves to an external assessment Israel and Palestine? It is difficult, but none the less I and review of that statement of commitment next year. have already made a commitment to the noble Baroness Fourthly, the noble Baroness said that ASA members that, in future similar cases, we will give careful are somehow not independent. Two-thirds have no consideration to bringing in an outside expert if we connection or involvement with advertising or marketing genuinely believe that they may be able to assist the before they are appointed. That is a criterion for process. appointment. The chair has to have had no connection However, on many other things that she said in her or involvement with advertising or marketing. Members arguments this evening, the noble Baroness is simply are appointed not by the chair alone, but by open not right. She said that the ASA was not able to be a advertisement and interview by a panel of council full member of the Ombudsman Association. That is members, now including an external person as part of incorrect. The Ombudsman Association has three the interview process. I invite her, as I have done categories of membership: ombudsman members, which before, to come and see the council in action. I dare are categorised as meeting the criteria for technical her to suggest that it is somehow not independent. ombudsmen; complaint handler members, which are We had a very interesting tour of the horizon of a categorised as having appropriate governance in place number of complaints about the sexualisation of figures to function as best-practice complaint handlers; and in advertising from both the noble Baroness and the associate members, who have an interest and relevant noble Lord, Lord Palmer. This is precisely the point: expertise in the work of the Ombudsman Association. an awful lot will always depend on the precise nature Because it is not technically an ombudsman, the ASA of the image, the context in which it is seen and the is a complaint handler member. We are a full member way it will be reacted to by the public in whose of the Ombudsman Association and we share complaint presence it will be seen. These are issues that can only handler status with the Information Commissioner’s be judged, case by case, by a committee of sensible, Office, the Office of the Immigration Services rational, independent-minded people. That is precisely Commissioner and the First Civil Service Commissioner what the Advertising Standards Authority council is. and Commissioner for Public Appointments in England. This is a system of regulation that works. It is admired around the world. If noble Lords ask anyone Baroness Deech: When I say “full member”, the in advertising or advertising regulation in any other ASA does not qualify in that top category, which has country in the world, they will tell you that the ASA to be, as I said, independent of the industry or profession system in the United Kingdom is the gold standard for being regulated. The rules of the Ombudsman Association regulation. We do not get all the things that we do are quite clear on that. right. We do, however, get most things right. We tamper with it at our peril. Lord Smith of Finsbury: The Ombudsman Association is perfectly satisfied with the governance and procedures 6.34 pm of the Advertising Standards Authority. Indeed, as the Lord Clement-Jones (LD): My Lords, we have had a noble Baroness will have noticed, the other entities very interesting debate. The noble Baroness made a with which we share complaint handler status would trenchant case and is clearly on a mission, continuing fit with any person’s consideration of independence the theme that she raised in an Oral Question last and probity. June. At that time, and again tonight, the noble Lord, Secondly, the noble Baroness says that the codes of Lord Smith, reminded us of the sheer volume of practice are written by the industry and that there is complaints dealt with by the ASA last year—37,000 no external input at all. Yes, the codes are written by complaints about 17,000 adverts—and the number of industry representatives, but only after very full and adverts that were changed as a result of its decisions. thorough consultation. The Institute for Government So this is a very important part of regulation and it is recently said, in commenting on the inadequacies of entirely legitimate for us to debate it tonight. government response to consultation: I have not always seen eye to eye with the advertising “However, an example of best practice is the way in which the industry. After all, it opposed my tobacco advertising Committee of Advertising Practice (CAP) and the Broadcast and sponsorship Bill on the basis that it would be the Committee of Advertising Practice (BCAP) reacted to the results thin end of a wedge. Of course, it has not been. I of a consultation on applying advertising standards to e-cigarettes”. probably still have an old copy of The Hidden Persuaders It is best practice in the view of the Institute for in my bookcase. As an in-house lawyer in the retail Government, which is a thoroughly independent body. industry, I encountered decisions of the ASA that Thirdly, the noble Baroness said that the ASA is were sometimes unwelcome to the business I worked not accountable to anyone outside the industry—that for. However, without a great deal of further evidence, it is not overseen. First, on broadcasting ads we co-regulate I do not believe that the noble Baroness has made out with Ofcom. Secondly, we work very closely with her case tonight. 1387 Advertising Standards Authority[LORDS] Advertising Standards Authority 1388

[LORD CLEMENT-JONES] 2009; advertisers’ own marketing communications in I have not always been a great fan of voluntary 2010, and so on. If new platforms emerge, I am sure regulation in other areas. For example, I was critical of that the ASA will address those as well. ATVOD in its early years. Given what the noble Lord, Of course, underpinning the ASA’s work are consumer Lord Lipsey, said, perhaps as a lawyer I should be protection regulations. It is not entirely non-statutory. arguing ferociously for more statutory regulation, but The ASA has also had—and I say this in the presence fundamentally we have to judge whether a particular of the noble Lord, Lord Smith—a very distinguished form of regulation works by its results. It seems to me series of chairmen. We have had my noble friend Lord that the ASA does a difficult job in areas where the Rodgers, then the noble Lord, Lord Borrie—who sands frequently shift, when concerns are raised about knows more about consumer law than the noble Lord, the advertising of junk food, adverts featuring skinny Lord Borrie?—and now the noble Lord, Lord Smith models or those involving obesity, alcohol, computer of Finsbury. games, e-cigarettes and gambling. All those areas are There is another reason why it is important to have fraught with difficulty. It is not always easy to draw a system of regulation that is flexible and responsive. the line between a legitimate desire to protect the It is not always referred to as such but advertising is young and/or vulnerable in our society and general one of our creative industries. It is in fact the largest disapproval of particular ways of expression—indeed, component of the creative industries in this country, of free speech. at £19 billion. It supports half a million jobs. It is of Advertising is often blamed for the ills of society, great importance and drives growth, as Deloitte established when in fact it is perfectly legitimate marketing. in its report, in the order of £100 billion. It funds other Advertising, of course, operates in a climate where it is parts of the creative industries. One has only to look at frequently the whipping boy for many social ills. We the ITV advertising to establish that. That is all the need to be scrupulous in insisting on evidence of more reason to be cautious about introducing new, harm, as I certainly did when dealing with tobacco untried regulation. advertising, and as I see is now taking place with the The noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, said if it ain’t broke, ASA’s review of junk food advertising. We should be don’t fix it. He stole my final line. I do not think the scrupulous about adducing evidence before advocating system is broken. The noble Baroness is a formidable bans. regulator but, particularly in the face of what the Having done a press search for the ASA over the noble Lords, Lord Smith and Lord Lipsey, have said, I past six months, it is apparent what an extraordinary am not persuaded by her argument. She said that the job it does. I do not agree with my noble friend that era of self-regulation is over. In this case, I really do there is huge inconsistency. The range of complaints is not agree. That is an assertion but it is theoretical. It is extensive and the judgments are not easy. Just in the saying that the regulator is not fit for purpose but I do last two weeks, we have had a judgment about a not see the evidence. Without further evidence, I agree cleavage competition and adverts in the Sun, which with the statement in the coalition Government’s July were not banned. We have had a tombstoning ad on 2013 paper that: television and in cinemas, which was banned. We have “The UK benefits from a healthy and successful advertising had Strongbow ads on YouTube, which were banned. sector, underpinned by an exemplar of successful self-regulation, All of those were rather difficult judgments. At the the Advertising Standards Authority”. end of the day, however, what shines through for me is some rather refreshing common sense in the judgments. 6.43 pm Going further back in time, there were judgments on Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab): My Lords, it the “Book of Mormon” adverts or the Paddy Power has been a very good debate and we all owe a debt of adverts involving Sepp Blatter and some expletives. gratitude to the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, for Refreshing common sense is what comes through for allowing us to expand on the issues that she has raised me in those cases. here. There is tremendous expertise around the Chamber. Who would have thought that we had a gold medallist Where this issue really matters, however, is in the in complaining sitting in our very midst? How wonderful protection of children. “The Generation of Z: to hear that. It is good to see the noble Lord, Lord Apocalypse” zombie posters—I am sure noble Lords Smith, in fine form, as combative as ever. He is too are familiar with those—were banned. I thought that often absent from our discussions. I wish he would was an entirely correct decision. spend more time here. He must tell us some time what It is very tricky. In its judgments the ASA has to was going on in 1962 that led to the ASA being conform to what it perceives as the mainstream of established. It must have been an interesting time, taste and public opinion—and, in a sense, public from all that we have heard tonight. morality and social responsibility. The great benefit, in I did feel a little uncomfortable at times because we my view, is the way that the ASA’s remit has been able seem to be re-hearing a private discussion, one perhaps to adapt over time, bringing consistency to advertising more restricted to the halls of the ASA, and it will be in different media and meeting new challenges as new difficult for us to draw very much from some of the advertising platforms emerge. The flexibility of the points made here because not all of us were involved voluntary system run by the ASA is of great benefit. in the process. I am sure the Minister will agree with We have heard from the noble Lord, Lord Smith, me on that. However, in the interstices of that debate how long the ASA has been in operation—since 1962, there are a number of points worthy of further reflection. starting in print; going into digital in 1995; its remit First, it is interesting, as was picked up by the noble expanded to broadcast in 2004; video on demand in Lord, Lord Smith, that most of the points that were 1389 Advertising Standards Authority[29 OCTOBER 2015] Advertising Standards Authority 1390 raised for debate about what was happening in the and judicial review, but I do not think that that is what field—apart from the political point raised by the the EU directive meant. I would be grateful if the noble Baroness—concerned the question of taste and Minister could respond on that point. decency. Of course, this is an area that politicians Secondly, it is not at all clear to me that the consumer should keep well away from and we are wrong to even interest is as well represented as has been argued in think about discussing it. But it makes the point, some of the discussions that should be taking place which I think was picked up by the noble Lord, Lord around the ASA. We in this Chamber have tried in a Clement-Jones, that whoever does this job has to have number of debates to find ways of improving the good connections to the wider world to understand engagement of consumers on, for example, the FCA the way that people are thinking about the issues being and the CMA. There is no perfect model, but the used by advertisers. They should be able to design a existing model, as far as it has been explained to us, is structure of receiving and dealing with complaints not the right one. that engenders trust in their judgments. That point is Thirdly, there are all sorts of things happening out so important that we should hold on to it as this goes there in the real world, as was touched on by a number forward. of speakers, where there is currently no apparent I have no doubt that all the people involved in the regulatory function—good or bad. I think particularly current systems run by the ASA are doing their very of things such as the dark web but also of some social best to make a good job of it and doing it as well as media. Are we confident that the existing agencies they can. I do not think that any imputation was being have the capacity and technical expertise to begin to made about that. However, as the noble Lord, Lord think about those issues? There is no easy option. Palmer of Childs Hill, asked, “Just because it is going In the modern world, given that most organisations well, does that make it right? Do we have to stick with which engage in advertising will be large companies the model we have or can we think of better ones?”. based outside the UK—much the same as those which That is what the debate ought to be about. Can we do produce television and film materials; and even if they this better or fairer? There were, for example, questions are in the UK, they will have a small presence here but about costs: “We are getting this for free, so should we will largely be run from elsewhere—do we have sufficient not stay with these arrangements?”. However, other sanctions and ability to deal with penalties, should regulators, not least the FCA, raise their own funding. there be a need to do so, in time? The current sanctions We should not be stuck on a particular model just are largely persuasive and largely reliant on the ability because it happens to be cheaper than anything else. to shame those affected by the judgments into changing their behaviour. I am not saying we necessarily would Another matter that came out strongly in the debate wish to do this, but should there be need for financial is that the points raised in the Leveson inquiry seem penalties or custodial sentences, is it right for a body extremely relevant to this debate. They should not be set up by industry to have that responsibility? If that is discarded simply because they do not point in the where we are going, do we not need to think more direction of advertising. The structures that were carefully about the statutory elements that might be considered and the arrangements under which decisions involved in that? Ofcom obviously is a possibility, and would be taken—along with the appeals system, the it may be that that is an area we might want to look at. role of Parliament and the role of other regulatory bodies—were all carefully mapped out by Sir Brian Lord Smith of Finsbury: Perhaps I may just very Leveson. There are issues here that would read across briefly point out to the noble Lord that at the ASA we into the discussions we are having. For example, surely do, if there is a persistent, recalcitrant non-complier, it is relevant that Leveson does not call for a statutory refer them, in the case of a broadcast ad, to Ofcom, solution, at least not initially. He calls for the industry and in the case of any other ad, to trading standards. to self-regulate, but in a way which is perceived to be Statutory criminal action can then follow. independent from and not attached to any interest groups, particularly those which fund the bodies that Lord Stevenson of Balmacara: I am grateful to the are currently operating. noble Lord for pointing that out. I had not picked that up in the voluminous material which has been circulating. Where does that leave us? Simply trying to defend I am grateful to him for reminding me about it, but he the existing arrangements against any other model makes the point that I was always going to make: the that might come up is not really where we want to get ASA’s ability to operate in that way at the moment is to. As the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, said, there are largely based on coregulatory activity not a self-regulatory wider issues here about self-regulation, which might arrangement. That, again, is a complexity. I am not be helpful in trying to get to the right decision at a saying it is wrong; I am just saying that we need to time of reconsideration within the wider community tease out what we want from this and make sure that it about how regulation operates. aligns properly. I have a list of points which I suggest the Minister I end by referring to ATVOD, which the noble should respond to when he gets to the Dispatch Box. Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, mentioned, because there First, can we be absolutely certain that the current has been a change here which I think is significant. arrangements satisfy the EU directive in its full sense? The coregulatory structure with Ofcom is to change Enough has been said to raise a question for me about from December 2015. As many noble Lords will be whether their particularity is sufficient to do it. I am aware, ATVOD used to do coregulation with Ofcom particularly struck by the points made about access to for TV on demand. According to Ofcom, the change the courts should there be a problem in resolving which has been put forward is based on the feeling disputes. Of course there is an independent adjudicator that Ofcom should do this on its own in future, 1391 Advertising Standards Authority[LORDS] Advertising Standards Authority 1392

[LORD STEVENSON OF BALMACARA] The ASA provides an easy one-stop shop for both “in light of the increasing convergence of linear services and public and advertisers, and allows for flexibility to on-demand programme services, the Single Digital Market Review take on additional responsibilities, such as online in the EU, and the need for a comprehensive solution to the future advertising, relatively speedily in the light of technological of content regulation”. changes compared with a statutory regulatory regime. That seemed to be a way into having a further discussion The system is free to the taxpayer and is a cost-effective about whether or not it should go further than simply way to resolve grievances. It allows for harmonious to ATVOD. decision-making for cross-media adjudication decisions This has been a good debate and there are lots of and promotes corporate social responsibility by ensuring things here to take forward. I do not think we should that industry has a strong stake in maintaining an get stuck on the particularities of the specific issue effective, robust system to ensure a high level of consumer raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, but I do trust in its products. think that her experience has given her sufficient vigour and interest to take this to another stage. We should A very good example of what self-regulation can respect that and try to give her a good answer. do that the Government cannot is Clearcast. This is a commercial service which checks whether broadcasting ads are in breach of the BCAP Code before they are 6.52 pm aired. It is used by Channel 4, Channel 5 and Sky, to The Earl of Courtown (Con): My Lords, I, too, name but a few. Some commercial broadcasters have thank the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, for securing made it mandatory for ads to undergo a Clearcast this debate and for the contributions of all noble check—something that would be regarded as censorship Lords. The impact of advertising and its regulation if it came from the Government. are clearly issues that attract strong interest and feeling The noble Baroness, Lady Deech, and the noble from many in the House. Lord, Lord Palmer, mentioned the independence from I will look at some background to the industry, as industry of the ASA. As the noble Lord, Lord Smith, the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, did. The UK’s mentioned, the ASA council is the independent jury advertising industry plays a key role in our economy that decides whether ads have breached the advertising and is a world leader. The sector was worth £10.2 billion codes. The ASA chair is appointed by the chair of in 2013—the second-highest contributor to our ASBOF for a renewable four-year term, but the post economy of any creative industry sector—and has holder must be independent of the advertising and grown by 67% since 2010. The core advertising and media industries. Two-thirds of council members on marketing sector employed 167,000 people in 2014, each panel are independent of the advertising and and nearly half a million if you include those employed media industries, and members are appointed through in advertising and marketing jobs in the wider economy. an open recruitment process, with all positions advertised. As well as being important in its own right, advertising Following a review of the appointments process, the plays a crucial role in helping secure the UK’s economic chairman will in future appoint an independent person recovery. Without advertising, brands cannot make to participate in the recruitment of all council members. their mark on the marketplace and consumers cannot make informed purchasing decisions. Advertising helps The noble Baroness drew a comparison with the to stimulate competition, innovation and expansion. press regulator, which was also mentioned by the Internationally, the UK’s advertising industry has a noble Lord, Lord Stevenson. The Government want tremendously strong reputation—a disproportionately the press to comply with the reforms recommended by large number of global iconic advertising and marketing Leveson and enshrined in the royal charter, and want campaigns has involved UK creative talent, either in to see a self-regulatory regime that is tough, independent, ad agencies themselves or in supporting sectors, for fully subscribed and commands confidence. The noble example film, music and graphic design. We have the Baroness also mentioned ads likely to cause extreme most awarded ad agencies in the world as a proportion offence. The ASA has a number of options enabling it of GDP, exporting £2 billion a year in agency services, to act quickly where there is risk of great harm or and London is an undisputed international advertising offence. In extreme cases, it has the power to order hub. advertisers to remove ads from publication immediately on receipt of complaint and before investigation. Where Nobody is arguing that this industry should not be it may not be necessary to use that extreme sanction, regulated. The question is what form of regulation but where there is a need to rule quickly, the ASA’s would be most appropriate and effective. procedures allow for timescales to be shortened according As a matter of principle, this Government prefer to need. The noble Baroness also mentioned various effective self-regulation over statutory regulation. We examples, including those of pornographic pictures. support the system of co-regulation and self-regulation She questioned the decisions of the independent self- for broadcast and non-broadcast advertising enforced regulator. It is not for the Government to comment on by the Advertising Standards Authority. We believe decisions taken. that this regulatory system has worked well for both customers and advertisers, and we support the previous The noble Lord, Lord Palmer, raised the subject of Government’s assessment, mentioned by the noble funding. The ASA is funded by levies on advertising Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, in the 2013 policy paper spend, but this is collected at arm’s length by both the Connectivity, Content and Consumers: Britain’s Digital Advertising Standards Board of Finance and the Platform for Growth, that it is an exemplar of successful Broadcast Advertising Standards Board of Finance. self-regulation. This maintains the system of independence, ensuring 1393 Advertising Standards Authority[29 OCTOBER 2015] Advertising Standards Authority 1394 that decisions are not influenced by those who may or with complaint-handling at over 70%, despite the may not be funding the system, while ensuring proper ASA upholding only a minority of complaints received. funding. That figure compares very favourably with other The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, and the noble government and industry regulators’ handling of Baroness, Lady Deech, also mentioned the EU directive. complaints. The EU directive concerns misleading and comparative advertising. In the United Kingdom, this EU law is Lord Stevenson of Balmacara: I was not exactly implemented through business and consumer protection commenting on that, although others did and it is regulations, enforced by trading standards. The CAP useful to have that figure repeated. I said that the and BCAP codes administered by the ASA reflect the matters that cause the most difficulty for the ASA are regulations as far as they apply to advertising covered taste and decency, and to some extent those that are by the codes, and the ASA has an agreement with political. That requires there to be good and enduring trading standards that it will in most circumstances relationships with consumer engagement, which I do act in the first instance in alleged cases of misleading not see but may be there. It was that point I was advertising. Judicial reviews of ASA rulings have probing. repeatedly endorsed the ASA’s authority and processes in the area of misleading advertising. The Earl of Courtown: I am glad that the noble The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, mentioned Lord was able to clarify that. As with any regulatory consistency, which was also of concern to the noble regime, there is always room for improvement, and the Lord, Lord Palmer of Childs Hill. The noble Lord, ASA would welcome suggestions on how its procedures Lord Clement-Jones, appeared to say that he felt that might be improved. I will also ensure that I bring the there was consistency in the decisions of the ASA. department’s attention to this debate and all that was said by noble Lords. Nevertheless, the Government The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, also talked about believe that overall the ASA is an effective regulator. consumer satisfaction. The ASA carries out a customer satisfaction survey.Latest data show customer satisfaction House adjourned at 7.02 pm.

Volume 765 Thursday No. 59 29 October 2015

CONTENTS

Thursday 29 October 2015 Introductions: Lord Lupton and Baroness Redfern...... 1273 Questions Yemen ...... 1273 UN: Global Goals ...... 1276 Cold Calls ...... 1278 Draft Wales Bill...... 1280 Business of the House Timings of Debates ...... 1283 Global Climate Change Motion to Take Note ...... 1283 Syrian Refugees Question for Short Debate...... 1322 Prisons: Young People Motion to Take Note ...... 1338 Advertising Standards Authority Question for Short Debate...... 1376