Bishop Tyrrell T?'Ust Bill. (10 Aua., 1910.] Glenfernaigh Reserve. 15(5 that the words which were inserted might i.Lrgislatibe ~~HHmblJ!. go further than was intended. The sec tion of the original act which it was in Wednesday, 10 August, 1910. tended to repeal dealt only with royalties, and it had occurred to the department, on Quettions and Answers-Papers-Adjournmmt (Amer:, and Amendment agreed to. a report having been obtained from the Amendment (by the Ron. J. GARLAND) district surveyor, the matter has been re ferred to the Navigation Department. agreed to: That the words "to the endowment fund of the Aee," lines 3 and 4, be omitted, GLENFERNAIGH FOREST RESERVE, with a view to the insertion of the words No. 355. "towards the income of the bishop." Mr. BRINER asked the MINISTER FOH Clause, as amended, agreed to. A.amcuvrunE,-(1.) Is it a fact that re Bill reported with further amend peated applications have been made to ments; report· adopted. have a large part, if not the whole, of Bill, with concurrence, read the third Glenfernaigh forest reserve 355, can- · time. celled and made available for settle- · House adjourned at 8.10 p.m. ment? (2.) Is it a fact that forestry · a •. 1506" ~ Richland,; Estate. ·- [~SSEMBLY.] _ . Police /nspectir:ms.
officers have always urged the retention Mr. HOGUE answered,-(1.) Tender~ of the reserve in the interests of forestry; will be called on the 17th August. (2.) and that officers- of the Lands Depart No avoidable delay will take place. (3.) ment have urged, 'to the contrary, that it I am advised that it is not a fact that should be made available for settlement? the condition of the school is insanitary (it) Will he have an open inquiry made ' or that the heaith of the teachers and in order to verify, or otherwise, the pupils is endangered. Owing to low walls statements which have been made by some inconvenien.ce has been experienced reliable men and public bodies,. to the during the summer months. The erection effect that there is no timber of ariy value of a new school will remedy this. on this reserve, and that it shouid be made available for settlement? REGRADING OFFICERS. i\fr. PERRY answered,-'-(1:) Yes. (2.) Mr. ESTELL (for Mr. STUART (a) Yes, on. account of the large amount H.oBERTSON) asked the CoLONIAL TREA of valuable timber; (b) the Lands De SURER,-(1.) Is it a fact that the Public partment have reported that some of.this Service Board regraded the officers of land is suitable for settlement. (3.) An the clerical division of the Registrar inquiry will be made in connection with General's Department in less· than two this and other reserves prior to the per weeks? (2.) Have the board had in hand manent classification of forest reserves. the regrading'of the officers of the clerical division of the Government Printing RICHLANDS ESTATE. Office? (3.) How long has the regrading of the Government Printing Office been 1fr. ESTELL (for 1\fr. HoLiiLI.N) asked in hand, and what is the cause of the the SECHETARY FOR LAXDS,-(1.) Was the delay~ • · ' · Richlands estate purchased from a Mr. :Mr. WADDELL answered,-(1.) The Davis at the price of £4 per acre? Public Service Board inform me that it (2.) Had it been recently acquired is not a fact. (2.) Yes. (3.) The Public by Mr. Davis from its former pro_ Service Board state that a decision has prietor, a Mr. Onslow? (3.) Did been arrived at, but it is intended to deal such former proprietor ever place the with the adjustment of salaries through property under offer to the Govern out the service' as a whole, and this will ment? (4.) Was such offer made by him be done as soon as possible. to the Government at £3 lOs. per acre7 (5.) Was any report obtained on this POLICE INSPECTIONS. ofier1 (6.) On what grounds was this offer refused 1 lvfr. ASHFORD asked the CoLONIAL :Mr. MOORE answered,-(1.) The es SECRETARY,-(!.) Is it a fact that a police tate was purchased from Mr. II. 8. Rich. officer of high standing has been ap at the price of £4 per acre. (2.) It is pointed to do the work of the Inspector understood that it had recently been pur General of Police whilst the latter ill chased by Mr. Rich from the Camden absent from Sydney? (2.) Is it a fact Park Estate, Limited. (3; 4, 5, and 6.) that after inspecting one station the In The only offer that can be traced was one spector-General returns to Sydney and of £4 per acre in the year 1902, which visits the same district a week later? (3.) : was declined. vVill he consider whether it is practicable to effect economy and efficiency by arrang ing for the absence of the Inspector- , W ALLENDBEEN PUBLIC SCHOOL. General for a sufficient period of time to J Mr. ESTELL (for Mr. B-cRGEss) enable him to inspect the principal sta- . asked the MINISTER OF Pt:BLIC IN tions in a district during one visit? STRUCTION,-(!.) When are tenders 1fr. WOOD answered,-The Inspector-· lil-:ely to be called for the new pub General of Police has furnished me with lic school at Wallendbeen? (2.) Will the following information:- he expedite this matter? (3.) Is it a fact .(1.) An officer of police attends to cer- - that the condition of the old school is tain duties during the absence of th& insanitary, and is the health of both Inspector-General upon inspection. (2.) ; teachers and pupils endangered? No, it is not a fact. He sometimes visits [Mr. Briner. C-Qnunissiun of the Peace. [10 Aua., 1910:) .150.7
.. three :and four stations when absent where his animalleave7 (2.) How many hours !Practicable ~o do S?· (3.) The pres~nt ar constitute a day's duty for a policeman rangement Is considered to be 'the most -satisfacto:ry in the interests of the ser- .in tlie, country ? · wice.. These inspections are often made by Mr. ·wooD answered,-The Inspector ~he Ins~tor-General at great person~! . Gen12ral of Police has furnished me with Inconvemence and discomfort in order .the -following information:__:__ that the general work of the department may not suff-er. (1.) No, it is not a fact. Nothing of the kind occurs. (2.) Eight hours; but when the public interests require that a COMMISSION OF THE' PEACE : ·little extra work is necessary, it must be APPOINTMENTS. done. · · Mr.· HORNE asked the CoLONlAL SEc BETARY,-Has his attention been called ·RAILWAY DECENTRALISATION: to the necessity for further appointments ROYAL COMMISSION. to the_ Commission of the Peace in many Mr. ASHFORD asked the PREMIER, -.of the country-districts, and does he in . (1.) Has the royal commission appointed •.tend to make such appointments during in connection with the decentralisation the currency of the present Parliament~- scheme inquired into the advantages of :M:r. WOOD .answered,-A few com Port Stephens 7 (2.) If not, why not 1 ·;plaints of inconvenience have reached me. Mr. Yl ADE answered,-The hon. mem I cannot at present say when the next ber is referred to the answer furnished _list will be gazetted. by me on the 2nd instant to a question asked by him. I understand that no evi LANDS TITLES OFFICE : DRAFTING dence has yet been taken at any place. BRANCH. PURE FOOD INSPECTORS. Mr. J. STOREY asked the PREMIER, -(1_.) Wh~t is the c~use of the delay in Mr. ASHFOI-W asked the CoLONIAL -deahng with the adjustment of salaries TREASURER,-'--How many inspectors are -of the perrn.anent officers of the Draft- . there appointed exclusively under the ing Branch in the Lands Titles Office 1 Pure :Food Act~ <2.) Will he take steps to have such ad Mr. ·wooD answered,-Three, and an justment effected as soon as possible1 assistant. I may say the local authorities have the right to appoint inspectors, and Mr. WADE answered,-The Public some have appointed local inspectors in ·Service Board have furnished me with proportion to the population; and, in ad ·the following replies :- dition to that, the _poliQe are acting in (1.) A decision has been arrived at but other places. · it is _intended to deal with adjustme~t of :salaries throughout the service as 'l. whole. (2.) Yes. RAILWAY COMMISSIONERS' INSPECTION .CAR. RAILWAY ACCIDENTS. Mr. CANN asked the CoLO~IAL TREA SURER,-(!.) Is it a fact that the Railway Mr: J. STOREY asker the CoLONIAL Commissioners' inspection car was sent . TREASunEn,~(I.) Were two employees Qf the Chief Railway Commissioner empty from Sydney to W allangarra fqr the sole purpose of bringing the Chief , killed, in the early part of 1910, while Commissioner back after his holiday 7 ~mgaged uncoupling vehicles 1 (2.) If . so, what were their names 1 · (2.) What is the total cost of running a car. the weigpt of the Commissioners' in Mr. WADDELL answered,-! am in spection car, Sydney to Wallangarra :formed: · and return 7 (1). Yes. (2.) _James Grant, and John Mr. WADDELL answered,-I am in · Gregory Keefe. · forri:u:Jd:- (1.) Yes, in anticipation of the Chief POLICE LEAVE. Commissioner travelling by rail from Bris Mr. J. STOREY asked the CoLONIAL bane to Sydney. (2.) The cost cannot be SECRETARY,-(1.) Is it a fact that, when given, as the car was attached to trains which, in- any ocase, required additional :a constable is off duty· owing to sick · ~ngine ,power over _various sections of the ness, the time he is off is deducted froin --hne. · 1508 Police Instructions. [ASSEMBLY.] Garra Public School.
POLICE INSTRUCTIONS. cases 1 (3.) Did Boufier endeavour to Mr. CANN asked the CoLONIAL SECRE avoid arrest by galloping his horse for TARY,-(!.) Is it a fact that copies of "A over a mile whilst the constable was. Synopsis of Indictable Offences and chasing him in the motor-car7 ( 4.) Did 'Forms of Indictments" have recently Boufier plead guilty, and was he fined been issued for police guidance through £5 and severely reprimanded by the out the state1 (2.) Is it a fact that these magistrate for his offence 1 (5.) Were ·copies were printed in the year 1885, and the police who dealt with this offender that twenty-five years have elapsed be subsequently reprimanded in connec fore their issue 1 (3.) Is it a fact that tion with the arrest; if so, by whose many of these statutes having been direction, and for what reasord (6.) altered, consolidated, and amended, are Will he lay the papers upon the table now in a different form to what they for the information of and perusal by were in 1885, and that consequently hon. members 1 this synopsis is in many instances incor Mr. WOOD answered,-The Inspec rect and misleading 1 tM-General of Police has furnished me Mr. WOOD answered,-The Inspector with the following inforq1ation :- General of Police has furnished me with (1.) On the 21st September, 1909, a the following information:- person named Boufier was arrested on a charge that he, on the 21st day of Sep (1 and 2.) Yes. (3.) Yes. One hundred tember, 1909, did furiously drive a horse of these books, which were on hand at attached to a sulky in Pitt-street, Syd the Justice Department, were sent to the ney, so as to endanger the safety of the Police Department, as it was considered public (section 99 of the Police Offences some valuable information could be ob Act). (2.) No. Where persons are well tained from them. known they are usually proceeded against by summons. (3 and 4.) Yes. (5.) Yes; Mns. ELLIS ROWAN'S PICTURES OF by the Inspector-General for not follow AUSTRALIAN LIFE. ing the usual course and proceeding by summons. (6.) The papers should be Mr. FITZPA'rRICK asked the PRE moved for in the usual way. MIEn,-Is it a fact that included in Mrs. Ellis Rowan's exhibit of watercolours POLICE : AMBULANCE CERTI at :Messrs. Angus and Robertson's salon FICATES. are from ninety to one hundred pictures :Mr. J. STOREY asked the CoLO which represent wild flowers, &c., pecu NIAL SEcRETARY,-(!.) How many police liar to New South Wales; and, if so, in the metropolitan district have ambu will he consider whether this collection lance certificates for rendering first aid 1 should be purchased on behalf of the (2.) Is it considered desirable that the state, and placed in the National police should have such knowledge 1 (3.) Gallery1 V,That opportunities and encouragement Mr. WADE answered,-In accord are given to police to acquire such ance with an undertaking given by me knowledge? , in response to a question asked by the .Mr. WOOD answered,-The Inspec hon. member for Camden on the 4th tor-General or Police has furnished me instant, the proposition that the state with the following information :- should acquire these drawings is re (1.) 272. (2.) Yes. (3.) Classes are ceiving consideration. frequently formed, when all members of the police force have an opportunity of BOUFTER: FURIOUS DRIVING. attending, if they desire. Mr. J. STOREY asked the CoLO NIAL SECRETARY,-(!.) Was a person GARRA PUBLIC SCHOOL. named Boufier arrested, about February Mr. FITZPATRICK asked the MIN last, in Sydney, for furiously and reck ISTER OF PUBLIC lNSTRUCTION,-When will lessly driving a sulky in Pitt-street, to tenders be called for additions and im the imminent danger of a number of provements at the public school, Garra, workmen on the tramline 1 (2.) Was the near Molong 1 making of this arrest in strict accord Mr. HOGUE answered,-Tenders will ance with the usual practice in these be invited at the end of this month. Superannuation Refunds. L10 Aua., 1910.] A.d jourmn eu t. 1509
SUPERANNUATION REFUNDS. posed to· .gazette a trust proposal in M:r. TAYLOR asked the PnEMIER, connection with a weir across the (1.) Is it a fact that, under the Public Namoi, near Wee Waa? Service (Superannuation) Act, 1903, Mr. C. A. LEE- ailswe·ed,-A date at contributors have the option of ceasing present cannqt be fixed, but the matter is to contribute, and that the amount so in hand. contributed is refunded, with interest, on PAPERS. voluntary resignation or retirement from the service? (2.) Is it a fact that a Ministers laid upon the table the fol lowing papers, which were referred to number of public servants have exer the Printing Committee:- cised this option 1 (3.) If so, will he Abstract of Crown lands reserved from take into consideration the question of sale for the preservation of water supply amending the act so as to allow contri or other public purposes, under the Crown butors the right of a refund at any time Lands Act of 1884 .. desired while still remaining in the Abstract of alterations of designs of cities, towns, and villages, under the service 1 Crown Lands Act of 1R84. Mr. WADE answered,-(1.) The right Gazette notices setting forth the mode to exercise this option was limited to a in which it is proposed to de-al with the period of twelve months after the pass dedication of certain lands, under the Crown Lands Acts of 1884. ing of the act~ (2.) Yes, but a greater Regulations Nos. 229, 230, and 231, number withdrew from the fund under under the Sydney Harbour Trust Act, the act of 1895. (3.) This matter is 1900. one which should be dealt with in con Heturn showing derailments and acci- dents to trains or engines on the New· nection with the general scheme of South ·wales railways b<>tween 1st July, superannuation. 1907, and 4th July·, 1910. Regulations and sche.dnlc of fees under· ALFRED BUCKMAN: WIFE DESER Justices (Fees) Act, ~904. 'IION. Particulars respectmg the proposed ac Mr. HOLLIS asked the PREMIER,-(1.) quisition by the Government, for the pur Is it a fact that Albert Buckman, of poses of closer settlement, of pai:t of the· Gunningbland estate, ncar Gunnmgbland. Newtown, travelling to South Africa on and Bogan Gate railway stations. the Salamis under the name of Al J?~r~iculars rcs~ecting th~ proposed ac bert Morgan, was arrested at Fre quisition by the Governmenc,_ for the pur mantle for wife desertion,, and after such poses of closer settlement, of part of the 'Vandary estate, near ForbP.s. arrest was released and allowed to con tinue his journey in the ship? (2.) Is ADJOURNMENT. there a court order against this man to AMENDMENT OF INVALIDITY PENSIOXS ACT. pay the amount of £5 weekly to his Mr. SrEAI{ER: I have received a notifi wife and two children, and, in view of cation from the hon. member for Orange,, the inabilitv of his wife to obtain a that he desires to move the adjournment · warrant for" his arrest, will he instruct of the House to discuss a definite matter· the Crown Law Officers to take the neces·· of urgent public importance, namely,. sary steps to have this man arrested at "The· necessity for considering the ad- Durban and returned to Sydney~ visability of amending the Invalidity Mr. ·wooD answered,-The Inspector Pensio1;s Act, in. the direction of pro General of Police has furnished me with viding pensions for the indigent blind .. " the following information:- Five han. members haring risen in their (1.) Yes; Buckman was arrested at the plac.es, request of the New South Wales police, but the "restern Australian authorities Question proposed. allowed him to continue his journey on Mr.. FITZPATIUCK (Orange) [4.52]: the Salamis on his depositing £100 ~ith T .am· bringing, this matter before the its court. (2.) There IS an order agamst Buckman for the payment of £5 per week House for the simple reason -- towards the support of his wife. :Mr .. · JAMES: I submit that the· motion is out of order, because a motion in WEIR ACROSS NAMOI; WEE WAA. exactly similar terms stands on the notice Mr. COLLINS asked the SECRETARY paper in the name of the bon. member FOrt PuBLIC Wonxs,-When is it pro- for Darlinghurst, 1510 Railway Service l A~SEMBLY.J · Superannuation Bill.·
J'IIr. SPEAKER: I must uphold the objec dismissal from the railway service. This tion taken. The motion standing in the is an entirely false principle. This or name of the hon. member for Darling any other superannuation fund ought, hurst is in identical terms with that of in its essence, to be a means by which a the hon. member for Orange. man could put by savings for the benefit Motion (by J'l{r. EsTELL) proposed: of his wife and children, and for his own sustenance after he has given up his em . That, in accordance with the authority ployment. No offence would justify the given in subsection (d) of the 49th stand ,ing order, a second motion for the ad~ ·cancellation of his right to such savings journment of the House be .now enter -any more than there would be justifica~ tained. · 'tion for depriving him of his savings put Question put. The House divided: by in a savings bank. If a man works honestly and honourably for, say, twenty Ayes, 20; noes, 38; majority, 18. :rears-if he did not do • his work he AYES. ·would not be kept in the service-and Ashford-< W. G. Kearsley, W. pays his money into the superannuation Beeby, u.S. Kelly, A. J. Cann, J. H. MeGa rry, P. fund, and then commits some.crime, no Carmichael, A. C. McGowen, J. S. '1'. matter how serious, his savings should Cusack, J. J. Meehan, M. C. ·not be confiscated. They are morally, if Dacey, J. R. Mereer, J. B. not legally, his property, and should be Edden, A. Storey, J. Fitzpatrick, J. C. L. available for his benefit, or for that of Griffith, Arthur Tellers, his wife and children. If a man all Hollis, R. Estell, J. those yeaTs r:a~·s his money into the fund, Horne, H. E. Trefle, J. L. he should be perfectly sure that, no NoEs. matter what he may do· in a moment of Ball, R. 'I'. McCoyf R. W. W. temptation or of forgetfulness, he will Briner, G. S. McFar ane, J. not forfeit his life's savings. The general ·Cohen, J. J. McLaurin, G. R. provisions of the bill are reasonable. Collins, A. E. Millard, W. Davidson, R. Miller, J. From an actuarial point of view, it goes Donaldson, R. T. Moore, S. '\V. further than any other measure dealing Fallick, J·. Morton, M. F. with a similar. fund we have yet passed. Gilbert, 0. Moxham, T. R. But I am talking of the provision that Gillies, J. Onslow, Col. J. ,V, M. Graham, Sir James 'Parkes, V. a man's life savings may be forfeited Hall, B. Perry, J. through one particular act of his twenty Henley, T. Taylor, W. years hence. Every man, when he pays a Hindmarsh, 'G. T. Thomas, F. J. shilling into this fund, ought to know that .dogue, J. A. Waddell, T. Hunt, J. C. Wade, C. G. that money will eventually come to his James, A. G. F. Wocd, W. H. wife and children, no matter what he may Jones, R. do some years subsequently. I know a Latimer, W. F.· Tellers, man in one of the other branches of the J.,ee, C. A. Nobbs, J. 'Levien, R. H. Brown, ,V, public service who wa'! there a numh£>r of years, and paid in, I think, during six Question so resolved in the negative. teen years, within a few pounds of £200. He was dismissed recently for getting ' RAILWAY SERVICE SUPERANNUA- drunk. I admit that his dismissal was TION BILL. justifiable. But why should that man's THIRD READING. sixteen years' savings be confiscated be Motion (by Mr. WADE) proposed: cause he got drunk? T}lat is immoral That this bill be now read the third in principle, unjust, and indefensible. :time. · This payment· is not some bonus, some Yr. ARTHUR GRIFFITH (Sturt) gratuity, which is to be given to a man [4;.58]: I desire to once again emphasise as a reward for good conduct. I admit ':iny objection to the seriously-mistaken that the fund is subsidised to a certain provisions, which will have the ·effect extent, but the larger proportion of the of. depriving a man of the right to his money payable to a man is his own ·OWn savings, if subsequently he commits money, put into the fund in a spirit of some offence which terminates in his saving for his old age or infirmity, and [Mr. Fitzpatrick. :Railway Service.. , . [~0 .. AQG:, 1910] Supe;·annuq,tiotb. B.\ll.
for· his wife and children; and'.no sub-. conduct/' ~ I hope th)lt when the bilLis • sequent act of his, however. heinous it ... in ,another place the Gove:r:nment will may be, should justify its forfeiture. As': take, steps to have that: definition liberitl the bill is framed the larger nuni;bei; of; ised. ·I do not· :forget. that the present men who will lose their savings ~YiH not.; ln!vexnment has created a new offence- in be men guilty of a gross crin;tin al off~_g¢c·. ' connection -with. the raiLway service, A man will lose his saving$ for , :;my. ;hich ~ight be· sa{d to constitute serious . serious offence.. A man who has. !Jeeu ~ m-!s¢011duct .. ·Until the Carruthers-Wade thirty years in the service may fall. as!~elJ GovCl'lllll!:)Il,_t C{l~e ;into: oJfic~, ai~Y man . in a signal-box, and let a train nm pa;:;t .. in the railway service was able to express _ the points. That undoubtedly is a -very . his opinions -with .l'eg::trd .. to the political serious offence, as .it might 'result: in. the affai.rs of this countr;y; but. now, under death of hundreds oCpeople, and \vou!d, a. rule, according. to . the : P.r.esent Chief, warrant his dismissal, but the board must', · .Ius£ice --·-·-.. ' - ·. :, ·_: · ..... · · · ·· u_nder the bill, forfeit the wl;iole. 'ofOthat~ ~:MI: .. ;WADE':), r.ise,to' orde~.: I ~sk that man's life's savings; I say that this pro~ : the bon. mem\Jer should keep to the bill, vision is monstrous, and will have to· be: an.d not•gpinto.9ther Iiuitter.s! . amended later on. · · _ <" , ·. · Mr .. HOLIJIS: I- am dealing with what :Mr. PERRY: It is a small thing beside· may·:be ·considered misconduct under this the death of other people caused by that·J bi'll. .. man's carelessness l Mr.- SPEAKER:. The. bon. member, in Mr. AHTHUR GRIFFITH: The d~ath ' speaking on the third reading of the bill, of some people would be a 'small matter must deal withthe princip~es of the mea- - :M:r. PERRY: Hear, hear! If the ho11. - sure,. and .not with matters of. detail. member died now nobody would miss . :Mr. HOLLIS :. I want to show that a him! breach of a gazetted rule · in conection . Mr. ARTHUR GRIFFITH: I .am not with the Railway Departn;tent might be going to be personal, and use tu quoque constructed into seTious misconduct. I arguments. I admit that that is a serious think -I am in order in showing that. The offence. I know a man twerity years in r"Q.le provides that a man may be dis the railway service who was diswissed. : missed from the service for taking part and properly so, recently, because he in the affairs of his country, without any allowed two trains to run into one section at the same time. Of course, that is a fault being found with him in connec serious offence, because it might result tion with his work, and whe:ri. he has not committed any crime. Under those in the loss of valuable lives; in fact, it. circumstances he may be robbed of the is so serious that dismis~al is justifiable. But I say that the confiscation of the . mpney he has contributed to this fund,. man's life's savings is not justifiable, no possibly for thirty or thirty-five years. matter what the crime may be, or whether Within the last four or :five years a new the act is a
that" the embargo placed on .officers dis offence, then possibly we follow that up missed for serious misconduct is a blot by- prosecution in a court, but on top of on the hill. I admit that there is a small that this bill will confiscate the man's sav saving clause, which gives the board ings. Under this bill a man is compelled power to make a refund of portion of to pay a certain amount to the fund, yet the money that has been paid by a man if he makes a mistake he is to lose all into the fund. his savings. The clause is ill-advised, Jifr. FITZPATRICK: Or the whole, if they and I am sorry to see it in the measure. like. An amendment was made last Sir ·JAMES GRAHAJ\I : Suppose a man night! were dismissed for embezzlement, what Jifr. WADE: The whole oi: part! would we do then ? l\Ir. TREFLE: I thoroughly agree with Mr. TREFLE: In a case of that kind I the hon. member for Sturt that the dis· can understand putting in a clause to missal of a man, in itself, should be re· provide for deducting something from his garded as ample punishment for an savings to make good the amount em offence. If the punishment should, in bezzled; but this is quite a different case, some cases, go beyond dismissal, that and it is unfair to put railway servants punishment should be inflicted in the in a different position to other public law courts. The bill says that an officer servants. dismissed for misconduct shall forfeit Mr. EDDEN (Kahibah) [5.14] : I have .all his rights in regard to this fund, but read the bill, I have listened to the debate the board has power to waive this pro· on the introduction and second reading, -vision where, in the opinion of the board, and also in Committee. I have also read the offence does not amount to serious this morning's paper. There is an article misconduct. As the hon. member for in the newspaper, signed by a gentleman ·Sturt said, some of the most serious acts named Carruthers, and I suppose he of miscond'Uct that a railway servant can knows what he is writing about. I think be guilty of may be absolutely free from it will be necessary for the Government -criminality of any kind. We could not to reconsider this matter, in order to see im>~gine a more serious act of miscon whether the fund is really on a sound duct than a man falling asleep in a basis. I do not urge that for the sake of -signal-box. If a man steals money, that the employees getting their money back if is· ~erious misconduct in one f'enE'e; but they are dismissed, but I want to be sure it is much more serious misconduct for that they will not have to pay into this ·a man to fall asleep in a signal-box, and fund for a number of years and then find run the risk of bringing about a railway they have nothing. That happened be -collision. Still there is no criminal in fore in the civil service. I do not profess tent on the man's part. ·No one can say to be a financier; but, after reading the that the running the risk of bringing papers and listening to the debates here, about n collision between two trains is it seems to me almost an impossibility for not serious misconduct. and I admit that the fund to be on the sound foundation the Railway Commis~ioners would be that the Premier said it was, speaking fully justified in dismissing a man from on the authority of experts and actuaries. his position for doing such a thing. In my district there are hundreds of men 13ut to go beyond the punishment neces· who will come under this bill. The ques ·sary for an individual act and to forfeit tion that presents itself. to me is, can it :a man's savings is unfaii:. If an ordi stand, after the criticism we have heard, nary criminal' in the outside world steals not only outside, but from bon. members borses, or commits any other serious opposite who are supposed to be experts? . - -~ .Railway Service , [ASSEMBL1;.) Superahnuatio;.J3ill. that ·way we can ascertain what the which we are assured to-day will not be strain .on -the fund is likely to be after ·placed upon it. Irt order to test the two or three years ... It seems to me that opinion ·of the House on,another matter, the whole thing has been merely thrown l move: into the House in order to meet a de- That all the words in the motion after - mand.for a certain fund. In spite of the word "That" be omitted with the the danger of misrepresentation, I am view of inserting the following words : i. prepared to criticise the financial basis "the bill be recommitted for the recon of this measure. I say that it is not sideration of clause 18." {.-sound, and .that the Premier knows it is not sound; that he has not given us I cannot understand the attitude of the ~ct~al·'report of the men who say the Premier in this matter. This is a that 1t 1s sound, so that we can criticise system of compulsory insurance. A it. He has given us no details. Even man is compelled, whether he likes it at the risk of being misrepresented by or not, to pay a certain portion of his · members like the hon. member for earnings int<> a fund. If he is dismis3ed Ba_th~rst, . I say we are justified in from the service for misconduct he does pomtmg out the financial weakness of not get .that money back. Take the this scheme. No doubt the hon. mem- ordinary case of private insurance. A ber for Bathurst, together with other man pays his money into a policy, and hon. members opposite, will say that I at the end of a certain period he is en- . -opposed this measure. I do not oppose titled, ·under some clause of the policy, the measure. That charge has been to withdraw the amounts that he h~s made again and again when I have had actually paid in. There are many forms the courage to criticise the proposals of of insurance on those lines. This is this Government. I do not oppose the clearly a case of compulsory insurance, measure, or the principle of the bill. and if, by the mutual breaking of a Mr. WADE: You say it is not sound! contract between the parties, the con- l1r. BEEBY: I do not say that the tract of insurance fails, all I am urging payment out of the consolidated revenue is that, as a matter of civil right, a of a sufficient sum, after a proper con- man should get back the money he tas sideration of the whole matter, is not a paid into the fund. Mr. ARTHUR GRIFFITH: Plus inter right thing to do, in order to make the est! fund solvent; but I say we have a right to demand from the Premier sufficient Mr. BEEBY: Plus the ordinary rate particulars, 'in order to know what our of interest. Why the Premier should liability will be four or five years hence. hold out so bitterly against a reason We are told that the liability will be able proposal of that kind I cannot understand . . £20,000 a year, but it is likely to be a :great deal inore, when we know that a Mr. DACEY (Alexandria) [5.27]: vast ,nurriber of men will retire at the So far as I am personally concerned, I ·age of 60 years. There are a great ·throw the whole responsibility for the ·number in the service now waiting for financial soundness of this scheme upon ·the upportunity 'to retire. It is impos- the Government. If this bill is what · sible to meet the demands on the scheme it is represented to be in certain quar as it. stands with the amount which the ters-that is, nothing but a glaring Premier says will be paid from the con- bribe, which is financially unsound and solidated revenue. I urge on the House cannot possibly last-then, so far 9.S I that we should not pass this measure am concerned, the whole responsibility until the Premier gives a fair statement rests upon the Government. as to what it is going to cost the coun- Mr. WADE: The hon. member should try. We are entit1ed to know that. I do more than that. The hon. member enter. my protest against the attempt should vote against it! ·to slur this matter through the House Mr. DACEY : On a previous occa without criticism, without information, · sion, when there was a superannuati6n and ~placing a heavy responsibility on · hill: before the House, computation the "revenue ·of the couritry in future .: t:lbles· w.cre put before us for examinit- [Mr. Beeby. Railway Service [10 AUG;1 1910.) Superannuation Bill. 1515· tion. We were furnished with the full of £20,000 annually. According to the est information as to what we were information furnished to the Daily yoting upon. Telegraph, it is not sound. An HoN. MEMBER: It is a leap in the Mr. McGowEN : What information c;lark! furnished to· the Daily Telegraph-one Mr. DACEY: It is a complete leap man's letter 7 in the dark. The Premier comes down Mr. DACEY: That is the statement and makes a proposition,. and having in the Dail.y Telegraph. It is a fair charge of the state finances it is fair to thing that the Premier, when he rises assume that that proposition is sound, to reply, should refute the article ap notwithstanding the statements that pearing in the Daily Telegraph, and are made outside. If the Government show that the scherrte is actuariallv are guilty of the imputation which is sound. If he does that, he will do good made against them by these state work. To whatever length we may go ments which appear in the press, then sometimes in party warfare, I cannot the responsibility is upon the Govern believe that the Premier would mislead ment, and not upon me. the House in the manner suggested by Mr. WADE: If the hon. gentleman that correspondent in the Daily Tele is not satisfied, let him vote against graph. I ask the Premier, when he rises • it. That is his duty! to reply, to show "Where that correspon Mr. DACEY: It is the hon. member's dence is wrong, if he deems the corres duty to place the computations on the pondence worthy of serious notice. There. table, in order that we may examine are a number of people outside who them. will consider that a case has been made· Mr. WADE : If I do not satisfy the out by that correspondent. hon. gentleman's mind, let him vote :Mr. CARMICHAEL: Does the hon. gen-. against it I tleman know that that correspondence . Mr. DACEY: I take it that the hon. is endorsed by a leading article in the . member has- brought in a scheme which Daily Telegraph 1 is on -a sound financial basis. Mr. DACEY: I was not aware of Mr. WADE : It was unsound a .that. Then it is endorsed by Mr. Nash, moment ago! . one of the financial experts of Sydney. Mr. DACEY: I say that the allega I presume that when an article on, tion outside is, that it is unsound. The finance appears in the Daily Telegraph.r allegation of the Rev. Mr. Carruthers it is inspired by Mr. Nash 7 is, that the scheme is not sound, and An HoN. MEMBER: It is not in the that it cannot last; and I say that, in financial columns of the Daily Tele the absence of computations that were graph! previously placed upon the table in Mr. DACEY: Anyhow, it is fair to· connection with schemes of this kind, assume that Mr. Nash has• had some-· we have nothing to do but to rely upon thing to do with it. I have no reason the Government. I refuse to believe to doubt the genuineness of the Go-· that the Government would, for mere vernment in this matter. I cannot be-. political purposes, bring in a bill that Iieve that any party would stoop so low is so financially unsound as the Rev. as to mislead Parliament to the extent. Mr. Carruthers makes out that this suggested by the article in the Daily scheme is. What would the result be? Telegraph. As regards the other mat The measure would not 'be on the ter, I agree with the hon. member for statute-book more than three or four Sturt, that whatever the conditions of years when, upon the strain coming on the funds are in othe: respects, there the finances, it would have to give way. can be no just grounds· for taking a The state, like private people, has to man's savings from him. I think that be just to its creditors before it can be is a very sad mistake, and I shall sup generous. I am voting for the bill on port the hon. member for Sturt in that. the clear understanding that the scheme connection. If a man is dismissed from is sound from an actuarial standpoint. the service he is punished· for his of-. when assisted by. the state to the extent fence, and I do not ·know why .we; 1516 Railway B ervice [ASSEMBLY.] Superannuation Bill. should appropriate his earnings. article in the Daily Telegmph>· but this There should be a computation got out scheme was criticised by making com ·that would allow a man who is dis parison with the· Civil Service Super missed from the service to have his annuation scheme, not with the super money returned to him. The hardship annuation scheme of the Methodist min of dismissal is enough, without pun istry, of which we know little or nothing. ishing him by confiscating his savings All the speeches on the second reading Mr. ARTHUR GRIFFITH: The trouble were delivered from the standpoint c£ is, that it punishes his wife and chil comparison with the civil service super dren! annuation scheme. If this scheme ha;; Mr. WADE: The offence itself does passed the scrutiny of the accountants of that! the Railway Department, and is backed Mr. DACEY: The Premier seeks to by actuaries to whom the Chief Com keep that man's contributions in the missioner referred it, how comes it that fund for the benefit of others who have we can say, on the word of one m::m, not had the misfortune to be dismissed that it is actuarially unsound? It llas from the service; but as other hon. mem- been before the country for some con - bers have dealt with that point at length, siderable time. lion. members lmow that I shall not pursue the subject any fur for the last three or four years it has ther. I just wish to emphasise my objec been a live question between the railway tion to that part of the bill, and to say, employees and the Chief Railway Corn with regard to the remainder of the missioner, and they were waiting until scheme, that I east the whole responsi they could arrive at a basis on which bility on the Government as regards its they could recommend a scheme to the soundness. Government. The scheme is ·not the 1Ir. McGOWEN (Redfern) [5.34]: I scheme of the Government. do not share the opinion expressed by Mr. WADE: The hon. gentleman is some of my colleagues regarding the fin wrong there; it is the Government's ancial aspect of this scheme. I think it scheme! was made clear on the second reading Mr. :McGOWEN: The scheme is not that every step had been taken as regards the scheme of the Government. It is the the actuarial soundness of the proposal, result of an agreement between the em and that full comparisons had been made ployees and the Chief Railway Commis with other superannuation schemes. The sioner. I believe that it was referred history of the matter ought to be known by the Railway Commissioner to the to hon. members. For five and a half Government, and the Government took years the railway employees had been en some further action to insure its being deavouring to agree on some basis with scund from an actuarial standpoint. regard to the payments to be made by 111:r. WADE: The other scheme was a them, and the superannuation allowance voluntary one, while this is compulsory! to be granted. Scheme after scheme was Mr. McGOWEN: I always understood submitted, first to Mr. Oliver, ihe former that the idea of the men was to have commissioner, and afterwards to the a compulsory scheme. The scheme is present commissioner. These men, in now being assailed at the eleventh hour formulating a scheme, had the assistance as being actuarially unsound--by whom? of accountants. They had to go before By men who do not kuow the great rami the Railway Commissioners with a pro fications of. the railway service. The posal which was a practicable one, and making of a comparison bctv;een this to prove its practicability it had to stand scheme and the civil service superannu the examination of financial experts. The ation scheme will not stand the slightest ?.ccountants in the railway service had scn1tiny. We all know that the public to examine it. The scheme which was service superannuation scheme was first submitted to the present Railway ruined because it was of a voluntary Commissioner was re>jected, and the last charaeter, and because a number of old Echeme submitted to him was rderred to public servants took advantage of the ::-duaries. I do not know which ~fr. fund, and became clain:ants upon it in C:lrruthers this is, and I did not read the the early stages. The prcseJ;t scheme is [Mr. Dacey. Railway Se1·vice (10 Aua., 1910.] Supe1·annuation Bill. 1517 compulsory. Employees must join the £500,000. The railway servants arc tho railway service under the age of 35 year:'! men who earn this money at the risk if they desire to go into the traffic of their health and lives, and who have branch, and under 40 years if they to work under all sorts of conditions to .desire to enter the locomotive branch. make the railways one of our best busi Thus we have a compulsory minimum ness undertakings. In the developments term for the payment of contribu of the future, it will be the so-called tions extending over twenty-five ;years businE'ss undertakings that will have to jr{ ~he one case and twenty years stand L3' New South V{ales, because some in the other. No such minimum was pro of the other sources of revenue have been vided for under the public service supcr handed over to another power. If the .::mnuation scheme. Then again it must scheme is unfavourably viewed by the be remembered that in the railway ser Daily Telegraph or by Mr. Carruthers, vice there are not so many highly-paid we should have had the advantage of any .oflicers as in the public service generally. enlightenment on the subject before we Mr. CANN: Why have not ,we the arriwd at the second-reading stage. .actuarial report~ Mr. McGARRY: Why take notice of a Mr. ·wADE: Hon. members have had all letter like that~ the facts communicated to theni! :Mr. :McGOWEN: It has been stated that J\.fr. McGOWEN: The Premier re a leader-writer in the Daily Teleg1·aph ferred the scheme to the Governm8nt has backed it up. Every precaution has Statistician, who is, no doubt, as well been taken to secure stability for the qualified to offer an opinion upon it as fund. \Ve do not know what may occur nre hon. members, or even Mr. Car in the future, but I mentioned recently ruth&rs. the result of the operations of the mutual l.fr. CANN: We have not got the Go provident society that was formed by a vernment Statistician's figures! section of the railway servants some time ~Ir. ~IcGOWE.N: I am not saying one ago. The men obtained a return of 75 word about that. But I am giving my per cent. on twenty-six years' payments. opinion and my reasons. I do not profess Under the scheme provided for in the bill, to be a financial expert, but I contend ti1at the men must contribute to the fund for every care has been exercised in order to from twenty to twenty-five years, and ensure safety and stability. This scheme fully 85 or 90 per cent. of the railway was not evolved by the men, but origin servants enter the service at ages below ally the late Mr. Eddy put forward a the maximum fixed by the regulations. It· scheme some twenty years ago. The rarely happens that a man reaches 35 scheme now put before us has had to years of age before he starts in the traffic stand the closest scrutiny of the Railway department, or 40 years of age befrwe he Commissioners, who did not approve of starts in the locomotive branch. The it until after it had been referred to a majofity of the men enter the service as financial expert. Then the Premier sub young fellows of from 20 to 25 years of mitted it to the Government Statistician, age. So far as clause 18 is concerned, it who possesses some actuarial capacity. I does seem hard that a man should be hold the opinion that it will not be deprived of all benefits under the bill in necessary to subsidise the fund to the the event of his being adjudged guilty of extent of £20,000 per annum out of the misconduct. Ron. members can scarcely consolidated revenue. Even if I thought realise the very arduous experienca it would be necessary, I would not vote through which railway servants have to against the scheme. I have never devi pass during their period of service. Some ated from that position. I wa~:; one of a of the men have to spend fifteen or twenty minority in the railway service who de years before they reach the maximum pay sired the adoption of the scheme which of 14s. per day for an engine-driver or wr.s su"bmitted to us twenty ~:ears ago. guard. If the slightest little accident oc- It must be remembered that the railways ' curs-if there is the slightest lapse of return to the consolidated revenue, memory or want of care on the part of a annually, in good years up to £750,000, railway servant-the whole of his good and in normal years from £250,000 to service goes for nought, and he is reduced 1518' Ra·ilway Service [ASSEMBLY.J Supe·rannuation Bill. by 5s. a day, or it may be 7s. per day. In McCoy, R. W. W. Perry, J. the interests of the public safety a high. McFarlane, J. Storey, D. standard has to be maintained, particu Millard, W. Taylor, \V. Miller, J. 'l'homas, F. J. larly in regard to eyesight, and it is Moore, S. W. Waddell, T. a rarity for men at the top of the tree to Morton, M. F. Wade, C. G. reach the age of 60 before their eyesight Moxham, T. R. Wood, W. H. fails them. As soon as that occurs, they N obbs, J. Tellers, Onslow, Col. J. W.l\1:. Ball, R. T. have to go back to the point at which they Parkes, V. Fitzpatrick, J. C. L. started, namely, 7s. per day. A man may, between the ages of 35 and 50, contribute NoEs. Ashford;.. W. G. Kearsley, W. to the fund on the basis of £4 per week. Beeby, u.S. McGowen, J. S. T. Then, if he fails in his eyesight, he may Cusack, J. J. Meehan, J. C. be reduced to £2 per week. This will Dacey, J. R. Minahan, P. J .. involve a reduction in the amount of Edden, A. Storey, J. Estell, J. Trefle, J. L. superannuation allowance which he can Griffith.._Arthur Tellers, claim. The conditions were entirely dif Hollis, J:t. Carmichael, A. C. ferent under the voluntary public service Horne, H. E. McGarry, P. scheme. There the superannua'tion allow Question so resolved in the affirma- ance was calculated on the salary for the tive. last three years of service; but, in the present instance, the wages over the whole f "11-Ir. Speaker left the chair at 5:57p.m. period will be averaged. Throughout the The House resumed at 7 p.m.l whole of the railway service-the run Mr. WADE (Gordon), Premier and' ning staff, both traffic and locomotive, Attorney-General [7.2], in reply: I have the signalmen and station-masters, are all no right to complain of hon. members. subject to these reductions, because every criticising the financial aspect or basis. two years they have to submit to an eye of a scheme of this nature and import-· sight test. All these things go to make for ance. So far from objecting, I am always· the financial solvency of the scheme. We only too willing to receive criticism that cannot lose sight of the fact mentioned by may be helpful in putting a bill on a .the Premier, that the railway service is sound foundation, and one beyond all an ever-growing one, and that young attack in the future. What I complain•. men are constantly being taken in. As a of to-night is the attitude of hon. mem matter of fact, opportunities have to be bers who presume to stand forward as; presented for the entry into the service of critics of fair finance and take up a: ·youths as car-cleaners. We are constantly different attitude this evening from the· ieeding the service with young men of one taken up by them during all the· '\'igour and robust health, and this shquld stages of this bill until half-past 4 o'clock not be forgotten when the solvency of the to-day. I complain of the absolute scheme is in question. I admit that the change of front on the part of some hon .. provision regarding misconduct seems members, the "damning with faint: rather harsh, and that the hon. member praise," and the holding out of invitations· for Sturt has made out a good case for the for the destruction of this bill elsewhere, recommittal of clause 18. whilst trying to lead others to believe that Question-That the words proposed they have a desire to see the bill passed to be omitted stand part of the ques into law, and placed to the credit of the tion-put. The House divided : Government who brought it in. This bill Ayes, 39; noes, 17; majority, 22. has been before the public now for more AYES. than a fortnight. It was given to the press in almost exhaustive detail before it Briner, G. S. Hall, B. Brown, W. Henley, T. was brought before the House at all. The Cohen, J. J. Hindmarsh, G. T. basis of contribution, H per cent., was Collins, A. E. Hogue, J. A. then made known. During all that :fort- Davidson, R. Hunt, J. C. . Donaldson, R. T. James. A. G. F. , night there was no comment by any Fallick, J. Jones R. public men or financial people that the bill Gilbert, 0. Lee, C. A. was not sound until, I think, yesterday Gillies, J. Levien, R. H. Graham, Sir James Lonsdale, E. morning, and, although we were told by [Mr. McGowen. Ral1way Serv-ice . (10 Aua., 1910.) SuperannuatioiliBill. 'leading lights in the Opposition that we had doubts then, to examine this scheme were not sincere, that the bill was only a for themselves, and to seek advice to ...shop-window -dressing for the election, strengthen their views on the point. They ,.. and that there was no fear that the never thought of doing that, it is true. It bill would .become law, we heard no is only when the bill has gone through its -comments on the merits. of this second Teading and Committee stages that measure, either financially, constitu- they now come forward with this double : tionally, or otherwise; and the whole barrelled attitude, "If the bill fails we ·tone of last ·night's debate was that this can always say we pointed out the weak scheme certainly seemed liberal to an points in it; if it succeeds we can say .extreme degree; but the House were quite that we supported it"-;-although they do -content to take my word that I had con not like it. sulted with an actuary in the Govern Mr. HoLLIS: Only one member said ment employment, the Government Sta that! tistician, who has had a long experience in Mr. BEEBY: Nothing has been said to these calculations-the House were quite night which was not said last night! --content to accept that assurance in all good Mr. WADE·: The hon. member for faith, and to proceed to deal with the Blayney, I admit, made the same re measure on its merits; To-night, to the marks to-night as he made last night; -consternation of all people, both inside but the hon. member was not here when :and outside, there is apparently a com I spoke on the second reading. bined attack on the bill, by throwing Mr. BEEBY: I was l .doubt upon its very foundation, trying to -discourage those who look for hope from Mr. WADE: The hon. member did not hear half of what I said. He was this scheme, and doing all hon. members not aware of the 'fact, when he came in ean, without using the very words, to invite other people to take action of a here and spoke some time afterwards, .drastic character against this measure. that I had given any figures at all. The complaint against me was that I had Mr. HoLLIS': Nothing of the sort! given no figure;; in regard to this ques Mr. WADE: It is all very well to tion. If the hon. member holds the .decline responsibility, but hon. members view, as he declared to-night, that this .must take the burden of their actions here bill is unsound and unstable, and is as elsewhere, and I again say that I can going to place a grievous burden on not conceive how it is, if hon. members the taxpayer, there is only one course · :are sincere upon this point -- for him, as an honest man, to adopt Mr. BEEBY: \Ve ca"Ji see what the hon. that is, to give effect to his own belief, ·member wants! he a man, and say: "I will vote against Mr. WADE: I want to expose hon. it." We do not want this double members opposite, who say, "If we cannot barrelled attitude, and not being man claim credit for the labour party for this enough to say, "I will follow my convic measure, we will take good care that it tions, and record my objection on the goes to nobody else." What ought to floor of the House." V'/e have, over and move them in the public interest, and for over again, in _this and previous Parlia the welfare of a large body of public ments, heard the Opposition declare ·servants, is the last thing they think of. that information was not being vouch · This is not the first experience we have safed to them which they required to bad lately of an endeavour, by insidious satisfy them that everything was cor methods, when a measure has come to its rec't, and therefore they voted against last stage, to do something that will, at the measure. That is the ordinary all events, destroy its value in the eyes of ·course to pm;sue. If the Government the public. cannot convince them, let them have the :Mr. EnnEN: It· cannot be destroyed if it courage of their views, and :vote against is on a sound foundation! the bilL But I sav that hon. members Mr. WADE: Hon. members had this who make these ~~mments decline to invitation held out to them more than two take the rPP.Donsibility of the views they weeks ago-on being told that H uer . express. Thev have to take, ·wit11 us. · eent. was the basis of contribution, if they the full re'·po~oibility of this measure. 1520 Railway Service [ASSEl\1BLY,.J Superannuation Bill. I am quiie content to say that there is of that pension scheme, the amount was no share of unreasonable responsibility, £214 for the first year; for the second because I repeat the statement I made year, £2,792; and for the third, last night-that this matter was ex £9,145. So that it is quite clear, from amined, carefully, thoroughly, and ex past experience, fortified by actual facts haustively, by the Government Statis - and actuarial knowledge, that the dE> tician, to ascertain, first of all, whether mands upon this scheme year hy yea1·. the voluntary scheme submitted was at its outset, will not be heavy, :ind actuarially sound, or otherwise attrac that, if this 1~ per cent. is contributed, tive; anti in the course of the investi there will be an accumulation going on gation, wherein.he pointed out the de which will be useful to meet those claiu1s fects of the voluntary scheme, he, as they grow larger. Now, in addition throagh no suggestion, through no in to the objections raised by hon. mem struction, propounded a scheme, based bers, there is an objection raised in the vn a compulsory basis, and on that basis press to-day, that, whatever may be the worked out calculations which the Go starting point of this scheme, in a few vernment could well afford to adopt, years, the allegation was made, that without imposing an undue burden fully one-eighth of the railway officers upon the taxpayers. He had the ad would Lc upon this pension fund. 'fhe vantage that hon. members have not had statemcnt made was this : -of going through the salaries of the It is safe to say that when this general whole of the service, investigating the superannuation scheme is in full opera Dfficers' ages, which is the crux of an tion, a few years hence, a.t least on~ eighth of the railway employees will be actuarial calculation, and on the infor annually claiming its benefits. mation so acquired forming his conclu sion that this scheme may be worked, An HoN. ME~BER: Who said that 1 Mr. WADE: Never mind. Not the roughly, on a 1~ per cent. contribution by the men themselves, and by about person the hon. member relies upon ! per cent. on behalf of the Government. his champion financier, Sir Joseph Car~ On this basis, upon, the figures I quoted ruthers, as he calls him. Here is the last night, the Government Statistician Government Statistician's reply to that: has truly said this : that, even assuming It is absolutely inaccurate, and :lgainst the entire experience of the civil servi~, that every man who is now over 60, the to make such a statement. The propor morning this bill becomes law, steps in tion in the railway service would be 4-() and begins to draw his full pension in to 1 of the salaried men, and 36 to 1 respect of his past services, the highest of the wages men. possible maximum claim upon the fund '!.'hat is, for every man over 60 years of' would not involve the Government in age in one class, there would be 40 to 1, that year in more than £10,000. But and in the other class 36 to 1. Then he he said that, from his own experience goes on to say: in mortality tables, and as an actuary, In the civil service, at its worst-that he felt confident in saying that only a is, before the advent of the Public Service small fraction of those who were over Board-when men of any age could be 60 would come upon the fund in the introduced, and when, if at any time it might be expected to have a large numbar cour2e of the next year, or even two of men of advanced age, the proportio1t :rears; and he had, to guide him in that, was nothing approaching that gentle the experience of the Public Service man's figures. Even at that period there were 19 men under 60 years of age Superannuation Act, which was rassed to 1 over that age, and with that ratio, i:::t 1883. That act contains sections only 4! per cent. of the salaries of the iust the same as this, allowing officers service would have been wanted to pro over 60 years of age, to retire forth vide pensions (of the extreme maximum amount) to all over 60. It is needless to with; and if there is a danger of this add that, under our niodern system of scheme being swamped at its birth by n managing the public service, these con heavy drain on its finances, there was ditions cannot recur. Taking that gen the same risk with regard to the Public tleman's own data (which, however, a,rf' Service Act, over twenty years ago. 'Ve entirely erroneous, in view of ascertained f~cts), we obtain the following rendi find that, for the first year of the life tion of the case, assuming 40 to 1 as the [Mr. Wade. Railway Service (10 Aua., 1910.) Superannuation Bill. 15-21 incidence of existing and relieved men have no claim, and he ought to have no respectively :-Forty contributors at .£3 claim on the fund if dismissed for mis gives an annual return of £120. One claimant, with a pension of £133 6s. Sd., conduct. leaves the sum of £13 6s. Su. to be made Mr. TREFLE: Why is it assumed that up by Government, or only one-ninth the amount of the contribution from his the man should have no claim? fellow-employees. And the same will hap Mr. WADE": For this reason: that pen each year, and the same assistance superannuation funds are not bonu~ sys will be required each year. So that, on this showing, in respect of this suppo tems to men who do wrong. The very sititious case, out of a pension of £133 6s. foundation of the superannuation scheme Sd., the men in the service will find nine is that it is a scheme whereby we build tenths (£120), and the state one-tenth up cohesion amongst the officers them (£13 6s. Sd). As a matter of fact, with regard to the assumption of age 60 as selves, and establish a stricter cohesion the period of retirement,. it is more pro between the officers and the employers. bable, in the light of experience, that men Pensions are granted at the age of 60 will be nearer to 63 years of age than to largely influenced by the fact that it i~ · 60, and in this connection a huge light ening of the burden will be experienced. a reward for long and good service. Du t a man pays on the implied contract that. Those are the two comments raised so long as he behaves himself and ·keep~ against the scheme-first, that investi his payments up, he will reap the reward gation has not been made at all; sec of good and loyal service by obtaining a ondly, that, whatever the starting point substantial advantage at a certain age. may be, the burden will mount up so rapidly that in the course of a few years Mr. HoLLIS: On :your own showing, there will be one-eighth of the service upon the man pays for it! the fund,. year by year. The answer is Mr. WADE: There is this fact to he ·that, from actual experience and investi remembered, that the money does ll{Jt gation of the ages of the officers, the ratio be~ong to the officer. When he pays tc, will be 36 to 1 in the case of wages men, this fund the money belongs to his fel and 40 to 1 in the case of the salaried low-officers, and they have a right to staff. 'rhat means that on a pension of· claim that that money shall be used for £133 63. 8d., the whole that the state the purpose of rewarding loyal and well will pay will only be one-n~nth. Under behaved men, and it is not fair to tell the these circumstances, it is not incumbent public service as a whole that, if their on me to go into further detail. If the members do happen to be dismissed for main ground of attack, on which hon. misconduct, those members can reduce members rely to damage this bill, is to the fund, which ought to be reserved £or succeed, I think it will require to be ' long service and good conduct. Let hon. more substantial before one is justified members turn where they like to tbe in replying to this very belated attack Public Service Act of this stat~ or al!ly which is made practically at the last other, and they will see that the essence stage of the bill. With regard to this is meritorious conduct. In the Poli~e question, it is the duty of hon. mem Superannuation Act, passed about four bers to voice these objections at an years ago, there is a condition with re earlier stage, and not to pose as the gar~ to the scale of allowances for long friends of the bill last night and to try service that the officer who claims it ml.l'st: to-night to "damn it with faint praise." have served with diligence and fidelity, ~'The other matter hon. members referred and that covers the whole of the cases to was clause 18, which provides fOr the dealing with superannuation. I do not forfeiture of all superannuation rights care whether it is a local/scheme or aJJ: English scheme,-! do not know of anv on for misconduct. lion. mem di"~issal instance where men who are dismissed bers seem to forget that in every super· for misconduct can clain:i .find insist. upon: annuation scheme . that I have come a right to a superanm:iaticn allowauce_ across, at all events any public scheme, lion. members le.y grtJat stress on this and the Public Service Act itself,. the point. One would assume, from the man who is dismissed forfeits all rig·hts urgent. way in which they discuss this {)£ any .kind.. It is assumed that he will matter, that the bulk of the railway :l522 . , . .Railway Service : [ASSEMBLY.] Supemnnuation Bill. servants were men who were going to be not substantiaL The bon. member for dismissed for misconduct, and who may . Alexandria stated t}}at he· was opposed .suffer some material loss. - · to the bill because he believed it was Mr. HoLLIS:· I did not assume anything ·.unsound; and. he went further, and stated our possession. If · hon. members still large area orchards should prove very re hold the view that the information sup munerative. Wheat, oats, hay, and rape plied is not sufficient, they had better take can be grown, also lucerne on the river the manly course and vote against the flats, and on a considerable area which. bill, and stand by their vote hereafter. cannot be called true lucerne land. Pota-· But if they are not prepared to do that, toes and root crops will do well. It is. ·they had better assume the other respon estimated the agricultural land will pro-· sibility and vote with the Government, duce 14 bushels of wheat, oats 50 bushels. because the information afforded to them of grain, and hay 30 cwt., per acre, with makes them believe the scheme is sounrl. good farming. The grazing capacity is. Original question resolved in the affir equal to 1:i sheep to an acre. The estate mative. can be suitably subdivided into thirty-one Bill read the third time. farms-one of 1,300 acres to embrace the homestead, eight rauging from 320 to- PUBLIC SERVICE (AMENDMENT) 600 acres, and twenty-two small farm& · BILL. of from 50 to 150 acres. The average Bill presented, and (on motion by Mr. rainfall is 24.28 inches for a period of Wade) read the :first time. twenty-five years. The estate is well! watered a~:~ a whole by the Y ass River GOULBURN SE\YERAGE BILL. and Manton Creek, both permanent. Resolved (on motion by Mr. C. A. streams. Catchments are good and fre I~EE): quent. The structural improvements are That the Goulburn Sewerage Bill, which valued at £4,733, consisting of main was introduced in the Assembly during last session; but was interrupted before homestead, cottage homestead, "Cardnes& its completion by the close of the session, House," woolshed, tank, and fencing. The be now reintroduced at the stage it had advisory board recommend the acquisi reached at the time of such interruption. tion of the estate (about 6,154 acres) at £4 5s. per acre (in all, £26,154 10s.), and· CLOSER SETTLEMENT. the owner agrees to sell at that price. HARDWICKE ESTATE. About 4,040 acres, situated in the Yas& Mr. MOORE (Bingara), Secretary for municipality, are valued, for local go Lands [7.35], rose to move: vernment purposes, at £2 7s. 10d. per acre Tha.t, pursuant and subject to the pro (unimproved). No valuation has been visions of the Closer Settlement (Amend ment) Act, 1907, this House approves of made of the improved value by the muni the Governor purchasing, by agreement cipality. The balance (about 2,114 acres) with the owner, an area of 6,154 acres, is in the Goodradigbee shire, and i& more or less, of private land, situate near valued at £1 4s. (unimproved), and £3' Yass, being the Hardwicke estate, covered by a notice of intended acquisition pub 2s. 6d. (improved) per acre. With regard lished in the Government. Gazette of 6th to the area within the municipality, I July, 1910, together with any improve may say that there is such a consider ments thereon, at the price of £4 5s. per able portion of this estate within the acre. municipal boundary, that if it were not He said: The Hardwicke estate em for ~he .fact that a number of small hold braces an area of about 6,154 acres, situ ings of a suitable character can be pro ated from H to n miles from the town vided, the estate is not one which we of Yass, which is 3 miles from Yass otherwise would have considered suitable Junction railway station (189 miles f:roin for .closer settlement purposes. But in Sydney). About 3,354 acres ·(about·54per view. qf the success which has attended cent.), in scattered areas, are suitable for the provision of small blocks-what are agriculture, while the whole· estate· is a termed "workmen's blocks, or homes"-in good grazing property. It is sound, good the Peel River, Walla Walla, and other breeding, fair fattening, splendid wool cases th\lt we are dealing with, it is growing country, and suitable for the fat considered advi·sa]:,le. wher\'l an estate is lamb industry. Large stock do well, and bordering on a land-locked town-and the dairying should prove successful. The land board states in its report that Y as~ most proiltable use to which the land is one of the worst land-locked towns could be put is ~ixed farming. Over a within their district~Lo acquire the area 1524 Closer Settlement. [ASSEMBLY.] Hardwicke Estate. and make it available in that form. I mation with regard to wheat-growing. would point out that the board report: Hon. members know the conditions uncler In valuing the es~ate, !he ques~ion of which the wheat maps are compiled. This the municipal taxatwn of a.pproximately estate is included within wheat district 8d. per acre was given full consideration, No. 17S. The figures with regard to that and the Board are of opinion that settlers within the mmiicipal area will. not . be district arc not particularly striking, hut materially affected hy such taxation. All I give them for what they are worth. the buildings and the be~t. of the land :ue Within the district, during the last fif. situated within the mumcipal boundanes, teen years, from 1896 to 1910, the average and, as advised herein, twenty-two blocks, area under wheat has been 4,614 acres, ranging from 20 to 150 acres,. ca~ be pro~ vided in this area, and the mcidence of and the average yield 10i bushels per the tax will be unfelt on these small farm~?. acre. I do not know that I need refer 'l'he balance of the farms within the Ill:um to the detailed yields, but apparently, of cipality can be_ so _v~lued as to ]~ave ht!le room for an mvidwus companson With late years, there has been somewhat of a the farms in the shire area. falling off in wheat-growing ~n that dis trict, although, taking the years 1908 and The Southern Advisory Board-and this 1909 in comparison with last year, there applies to all boards-have been given was a considers hie increase last year. practically a free hand in insp~cting The highest yield per acre wa3 obtained estates which they deem most smtable in 1904, when there was a return of from for closer settlement. The Southern Ad 6,750 acres of nearly 18 busheh per acre. • visory Board have inspected and reported I think that all the particulars hon. mem on a large number of estates. They say bers will require will be found in the that there is a very strong demand for report now before them. The estate is land in this district, .and amongst a a small one, in regard to which we would number of estates immediately surround not think of putting the resumption ing the town they recommend Duoro, clauses of the act into operation; but as Kenilworth, and Hardwicke estates in it is offered to the Government, and there that order. In the case of Duoro, the is a big demand for land, and the estate estate was placed under offer to the Go will provide a number of homes for in vernment, but as the time was short, I tending settlers, I have no hesitation in asked the owners to extend the offer. asking hon. members to approve of its They declined to do so, and disposed of acquisit.ion. the property at a higher price than that Question proposed. [House counied.] at which it was offered to the Government. Mr. TREFLE (The Castlereagh) The Kenilworth estate presented a case [7.48] : I do not intend to oppose the for resumption. The board's valuation acquisition of this estate, but there are was a long way below that of the owners, one or two features in connection with so that it was quite evident that the the proposal to which, I think, a little estate would have to be forcibly resumed; attention should be devoted. The Minis and it was not deemed advisable to ter has pointed out that only a limited go on with that, because the area was area is suitable for agriculture-54 per comparativdy small-about 8,000 acres cent.-in scattered areas. I admit that and wlH'll the owner had exercist'd his the demand for land in the district is right of retainer, it would be hardly strong, and in the absence of big estates worth while to compulsorily resume the it is advisable to rbsume small ones. The ·balance. The Harciwicke estate was the idea of acquiring large estates, and large next one in order, and I am now asking estates only, is one to which I have never _the Hou~e to approve of its acquisition. subscribed. The principal thing is, to The board ascertained that there was a obtain land of a suitable character in .very c0nsiderable local demand for farms the right locality. But the thing that in that district. They have fifty-four strikes me as requiring a little explana written applications from intending tion is the enormous proporti0n of the .settlers, whose capital ranges from £50 improvemc·nts which is represented by to £2,000. There is at present no farm buildings. The Hardwicke homestead ing being done on the estate. I may as and adjacent buildings is valued at £2,365. well give hon. members the usual infor- We all know what these old homesteads [Jfr. Moore. Closel' Settlement. (10 Aua., 1910.] Hardwicke Estate. 1525 are. This homestead will not be worth Mr. MooRE: That will be the average more than a quarter of the valuation to for the whole area! the incoming settler. Mr. BEEBY : Then the holders of small Mr. MooRE : \V ould the hon. member blocks will have to pay for some of the read clause 40 of the board's report~ improvements? J\fr. TREFLE: The board say: Mr. MoORE: Not necessarily! Mr. TREFLE: If we knew that 1,300 ':f1w board have already b~en approached w1th regard to the HardwlCke homestead acres, with the improvements, were to be block and "Cardness," for both of which repurchased at £6 or £7 per acre, we applicants are waiting. The present should know that the average price for occupant of Uardness ·House has resided the rest of the estate would be much re there fourteen years, and previously at Comur Cottage for ten years, and he is duced. anxious to take up the block. J\fr. MooRE : The blocks will vary in I understand that the owner of the land value! has been trying to reduce the municipal Mr. TREFLE: Yes; but the !finister valuation from £2 7s. lOd. per acre to a will see the difficulty of criticising a pro much lower figure, and, in view of that, posal of this character when we have it evidently the unimproved valuation is stated that the Crown have received an regarded as rather high. offer from the present owner -- Mr. MooRE: That does not follow at all! Mr. MOORE: Not the present owner! !fr. TUEFLE: Then someone else has Mr. TREFLE: As a rule, hard-headed offered to take the house and 1,300 acres. men do not commence actions without a That is a large area to hold close to the fair chance of success. town. !fr. MooRE: As a rule, the local valua Mr. !fOORE: The improvements are so tion is low! valuable that we shall have to let a large !fr. TREFLE: As a rule, it is so; but area go with them; otherwise they will I should not say it was in this case. be out of proportion! . l.fr. MooRE: That is my experience! Mr. BALL: How would the hon. mem Mr. TREFLE: But in this case the ber get over the difficulty? owner is attempting to reduce the valua Mr. TREFLE: That is not the question. tion by something like lOs. 6d. per acre. !lr. l!'ITZPATRCK: Either the hon. mem Even accepting the unimproved valuation ber wants the resumption, or he does not! at £2 7s. lOd., we are asked to give £4 5s. Mr. TREFLE: Hon. members are per acre, and I suppose that subdivision rath'er too fond of taking up that attitude. expenses will have to be added to that Are not the Opposition to offer any price. The difference between the unim criticism? I rose to say that the Oppo proved and the improved valuation is £1 sition were not going to oppose the pro 7s. 2d. per acre, and, if the whole of the posal; but it does not follow that we land were fit for agriculture and the im should not be permitted to point out what pro>ements were made up of clearing, we consider to be shortcomings in con scrubbing, and other work absolutely nection with it. It is our duty to do so. necessary to make land suitable for agri Mr. BALL: And to suggest a remedy! cultural occupation by small settlers, the Mr. THEFLE: It is not the duty of the difference would not be too great. But Opposition to suggest a remedy, but to we find that the improvements total point out where the proposal fails. £4,733, of which the homestead represents Mr. MooRE: If there is something that £2,365, and the woolshed, hut, and under wants remedying, and we do not provide ground tank £390. There are improve the remedy, it is the hon. member's clear ments of a character that would be useless duty to suggest a remedy! to the incoming settler. Mr. TREFLE: That is not the point Mr. MooRE: We shall be able to dispose at all. of those improvements, together with a :Mr. MooRE: I say that there is a remedy block of 1,300 acres; and therefore the · provided-can the hon. member suggest a small holders will not have to pay for better one? those improvements! Ur. TREFLE: The Minister knows that · ~Ir. BEEBY: Will the big block fetch £4 there is a certain amount of infOJ'ma ts. per acre~ tion not now before the House. If the 1526. Closer Settlement.,_ [ASSEMBLY.] Hardwicke· Estate. Government have:a buye:f'who is prepared who will buy the least valuable and un to take the homestead, together with 1,300 improved blocks will not be saddled' acres, it must be admitted that that area with a big proportion of the cost of the is a large one. If the Minister told the valuable improvements which will go House the amount this buyer was pre to the man who gets the big block. : pared to pay we should be in a position Mr. MoonE : The officers of the de· to estimate what would have to be. paid partment will do their best in subdi for the remainder of the land. viding the estate. What more does the. Mr. MooRE: I do not know the price. I hon. member want 1 If he is not satis do not guarantee that there is a buyer. I fied, let him vote against the proposal! only know what the board say. We have 1\ir. TREFLE : I am going to vote to risk something in connection with these for it. I take it for granted that all proposals. this land will find purchasers. But we Mr. TREFLE: The report says: do not want small estates of this char The board have already been ap acter to be purchased, for someone to proached with regard to the Hardwicke come along and get the homestead block homestead block and "Cardness," for with a magnificent home upon it, at both of which applicants are waiting. a certain figure, and for the small men But, if we resume this property at to be saddled with the burden of pay-_ £4 5s. an acre, and people are pre ing for the improvements on that pared to take the big block on which block. In this case, after the big block the improvements are situated, at. £4 where the hometead is has been taken. lOs. or £4 15s., and we sell the small out, the small settlers are to be handed blocks with no improvements on them a lot of practically unimproved blocks. at nearly the same price, the small men Mr. MoonE: I suppose that if this will really pay for the improvements estate is properly subdivided, and the for the big man who get§; the 1,300-acre values are fairly distributed, the hon. block. member will be satisfied 1 Mr. BALL: That has never happened Mr. TREFLE: Certainly. If the yet! hon. gentleman will give us an assur Mr. TREFLE: Having offered this ance that in cutting up this estate t]Je criticism, I take it that the Minister cost of the improvements will be fairly will accept the responsibility of seeing charged against the man who gets the that that sort of thing will not happen. block where the improvements are, I No mention is made of tanks for ordi have nothing to say. In that case, the nary settlement purposes·, and evidently other settlers will get their land at less every settler will have to sink tanks than £4 5s. an acre, because, if the on his own small block, and no mention Minister's suggestion is carriecl out, we is made of fencing, or of ringbarking, shall be able to dispose of the small or of clearing; therefore it follows farms at something over £3 an acre to that the small blocks will practically be the small settlers, who will have to put handed over unimproved to the settlers. their own improvements on their land. Mr. BALL: 'I'here is no mention made I have merely offered a certain amount of rabbits, either! of criticism in order to direct atten-. Mr. TREFLE: 'fhat makes no differ tion to the fact that certain valuable ence, because, if there are no rabbits buildings practically monopolise the on the estate now, they are likely to whole of the improvements; but if the come there. I take it for granted that subdivision is so arranged as to place settlers, whether they select land or buy the cost of those valuable improve it privately, have to be prepared to ments practically on the man who buys deal with the rabbits; and if the rab the homestead block, I have no objec bits are not on this estate now, they tion to offer to the proposaL This land may come there in the future, and the is in an old settled district, where there settlers will have to deal with them is a big demand for land, and although then. We have rabbits practically all £4 5s. an acre may seem rather a high over New South Wales now. We have price f.or the Government to pay for it. not any guarantee that the small settlers I think 'that, on the whole, if the Minis-, [Mr. Trefle. Closer Settlement. 110 Ata., 191;0.] . .Hardwicke.Estate. 1527 ter's suggestion is carried out-, and the which the Crown paid· a large amount hon. gentleman will see that the im of money in cash to the vendors, and provements are fairly charged against that that .individual should be allowed the big block -- to have thirty odd years to pay the Mr. MooRE: I do not say that I 'll"ill Crown the value of that block of land see that the improvements are charged and the improvements upon it 1 I, for against anything, but that there will one, at any rate, never had such an be a fair apportionment of values as idea. It is questionable whether this far as we can. The' expert and respon estate is really suitable for closer settle sible officers of the department will have ment. According to the report, there is to see to it! a 24-inch rainfall, and yet it is said Mr. TREFLE : If that is to be done, that the land should grow 14 bushels of I am satisfied, and have no objection to wheat to the acre. With a 24-inch rain offer to the proposal. fall, -land that is really suitable for agri Mr. Mrr.LAHD: The Minister has really culture should grow 25 bushels of wheat promised the hon. member nothing! totheacre. It is clear to me that this land Mr. TREFLE : Do I not know it 1 is not really suitable for closer settle Mr. MILLARD: But the hon. member ~ent, because the report says that it is says that he is satisfied. The hon. mem situated close to Yass, and right along ber is easily satisfied ! side the railway, and yet there are only Mr. TREFLE: Well, the Minister 250 acres suitable for the plough. You thought he was asked too much, and he could go into· adjoining ·districts, and withdrew a portion. I think that the find land miles away from a railway, locality justifies this resumption. I and where there is not a 24-inch rain certainly approve of resumptions in any fall, but only a rainfall of 19 or 21 district where we can make a success of inches, aud yet that land will grow from them. I agree with the idea of scatter 18 to 22 bushels of wheat to tlJC acre. I ing the resumptions---not having too cannot understand why this estate was much in one locality. This side of the ever offered to the Government, or why House will offer no objection to this the Government ever took its acquisition proposal. · into consideration. I do not desire to Mr. BALL: How does the hon. mem- say anything against the board's valua ber kriow 1 . tion, but I find that part of this land is Mr. TREFLE: I mean as the Opposi assessed for local government purposes tion. Individual members, of course, at £2 is. 10d. per acre, unimproved can do as they please. This is not a value; and I have it on the best· of au · party matter. thority tnat the owners were not in Mr. BALL: The. hon. member is clined to pay on anything like a valua speaking for thein i tion of £2 an acre for taxation pur Mr. TREFLE: We are offering no poses. I intend to call for a division opposition to this proposal as a party. against the proposaJ. I conte~d .that Mr. BURGESS (Burrangong) [8.5]: this is not an estate upon which we . I am not satisfied with· the proposal. should spend something like £25,000 \Vhen we passed the Closer Settlement for resumption for closer settlement Acts, I do riot think it was contemplated purposes, seeing that one of the farms that we would resume an estate of the is to have ·an area of 1,300 acres. I ' character of the Hardwicke estate, near suppose 'it will be about £5 per acre. _ Yass-an estate of some 6,000 odd It will have to be, if we are going to -acres, which it is pniposed to cut up take a lot off the other individual who into thirty-.one farms, one of which is will get the land without any improve to contain an area of 1,300 acres, upon ments, and you are going to allow the which there are close upon £4,000 worth individual who is to get that particular . -of improvements. 'W:hen we passed the . block of land thirty-two years to pay the . Closer Settlement Acts, did hon. mem- price whi-ch the Crown will pay in cash ~ hers contemplate giving to any indi- for resuming the estate. That in itself . vidual the privilege of coming along is sufficient -to· warrant me in saying ~~an_d· tak~ng ~p a large ,block ·of land for . what I have said.,. Then rabbits are}n 1::128 Closer Settlement. [ASSEMBLY.] Hardwicke Estate. evidence, and briars and other pests are and being close to the town p'eople have on th"' land; so that there will be very been able to make a living on it. The little land fit for cultivation. The carrv fact that there has been an appeal against ing capacity is one and a quarter she~p the municipal assessment is lWt so much to the acre. That is all it can do due to the fact that the assessment is with 24 inches of rainfall. If the high, but the usual trouble with muni hon. member for Corowa had 24 cipalities is that when they appoint a inches in his district, does he think valuator, in order to avoid appeals, he the land there would not carry more generally Yalues the land that may be than one and a quarter sheep to the worth £5 an ac.re at £3 an acre; so that acre 1 It would carrv two and a half if the case goes to. the Appeal Court he to the acre. This la~1d will only give will be able to uphold his assessment.' In 14 bushels of wheat to the acre. resuming this estate, I do not think it That is not the kind of estate that we will be one that will suffer in comparison should throw open for closer settlement. with others that have been resumed. It makes no difference to me in what Seeing that this land only carries district thi3 estate may be. If I feel one and a quarter sheep per acre that it is an estate that we should not it is evident that it will be a poo; pay public money for, I will say so, and bargain fer those who buy it. At will register my ..-ote against it. the same time, the land-hunger is so l\Ir. CUSACK (Queanbeyan) [8.12]: I great that I do not think the Govern know this property, and whilst I do not ment would be in a bad position if they say that the value put on the land is not acquired the estate at the price named. high, yet, considering the land hunger 1Ir. DONALDSON (Wynyard) in the state, no doubt we can agree with [8.19]: I "·as a bit astonished when I the advisory board in assuming that first heard that this estate was to be re there will not be much difficulty in dis sumed by the Government. I d~ not say posing of the land. The question of that it is absoldely unfit for closer settle improvements has been touched upon by ment, but it is safe to say that within a hon. members, but this estate is divided radius of 50 miles you could get dozens into three properties; one is valued at cf estates infbitely better for the pur :£900 odd. That property, I know, has pcs2. This estate does not bear a very gocd reputa-tion. Every man who handled been rated, not ·so much for the Ian d the estate during the last twenty-five value attached to it as for the conveni ~-ears has left it a considerably wiser and ence that it has afforded to the police poorer man. 'Vhen there are dozens of magistrate to live there, cJose to the estates far better suited for closer settle town. ment in the neighbourhood, one cannot An RoN. MEMBER: We do not resume help wondering why the advisory board, land to enable police magistrates to live \Yhcn they get off their beaten track of on it! going to the dry parts of the state for Mr. CUSACK: It would enable the estates, should have fixed upon this "tin Government, if they resumed the estate, pot" Estate to be resumed for closer to place this property with advantage, and settlement. No doubt the estate is highly leave the balance of it for closer settle improYed, but I think the man who goes ment at a price that would be satisfac upon the laTid at this price will have a tory. The fact that this property is Yery hard row to hoe. Of course, the carrying a low assessment per acre is ce:;: terms offered are the attraction. You can tainly a d:mwback. But from the know get a man to tal~e on almost anything ledge I have of the district, and of the "-hen the term of payment is spread over town, I know that land adjoining this thirty-two years. Although there is a has been sold for more than that amount, 24-inch rainfall, it does not follow that not because it would yield interest on the land is adapted for cultivation. There the money invested, but because people ],as not. been much cultivation on the es . are so. hard pressed for land .that they are tate. Yo:t n:ay r.:et a large rainfall which obliged to give an excessive price. I dare rr.ay be of very little service for cultiva !'ay all .the property will be sold, because tiol1. It is net long- since that I drove it has been used -for vegetable growing; by this cs!aic, a::.:d' it struck me that it [Mr. Bur,qt!ss. Closer Settlement. [10 Aua., 1910.] Hardwicke Estate. • 1529. is scarcely the highly-improved property they must vote against .it. Evidently an tl;.at it is described to be. I can vouch for exception is made when the criticism the briars, and it is infested with rabbits. comes from a Government supporter. No doubt the advisory board ·thought that Coming to this motion, I agree with the there was a big demand for land in that general tenor of the remarks made that neighbourhood, and they may have this is a class of resumption which should thought it was the only estate that was be encouraged. There is the essential available. But they should have gone feature that the land is adjacent to a more towards Gundagai, and have given town, and it is also near a railway, and more attention to the excellent land on the area is reasonably small. I have the Jifurrumbidgee, which is the best in always considered it the wiser policy, in the state. connection with closer settlement, to take Jl.fr. MooRE: The board has just been small areas near towns and railways, down there I provided that there is a decent rainfall. Ilfr. DONALDSON: But thev have But here again we are face to face with taken a very long time to go dow~ there. the inherent weakness of the whole system I will not oppose this resumption, but I when we come to determine what the wish to let the House know that the price of resumption is to be. The board Hardwickc estate has never borne a good state: name for returning money spent upon it. The balance, about 2,114 acres, is in I could name people who \Yent there and the Goodradigbee shire, and is valued at who got "stone broke," ami that was not £1 4s. unimproved, and £3 2s. 6d. im on account of bad management. I know proved, per acre.' a hanl-\Yorking, industrious manager who went from the Tumut district to this es Now, allowing for the under-valuation tate, and I think if we got his ·opinion which the Minister and everyone admits about it it would not be very favourable. does take place to some extent, it seems If the estate will only carry one to me that there is something radically and a quarter sheep to the acre, wrong when a man pays taxes in a shire a man will not get very fat upon on a l:)asis of £3 2s. 6d. per acre, and we it if he goes in for grazing, especially are to buy the same land at £4 5s. per when he has to pay municipal taxes. That acre. is the worst feature of the estate. I can Mr. MooRE: That is the average price. not help expressing my astoni5hment that It must be borne in mind that the im this property should have been picked out proved value of land does not include any :for resumption when there is so much structural improvements that may be on better land in the immediate neighbour that land. When we buy land we have to hood. I am glad that the Minister says pay not only for the improved value of that the advisory board have just been the land, but for any structural improve down to the Gundagai district looking at ments that may be upon it! the splendid flats there. I will vote for Mr. BEEBY: That is so; but the any proposed resumption that is anything Minister will concede this, that the por Eke a fair proposal. Knowipg the mem tion of land ·on which the homestead bers of the advisory board to be men of stands is inferior land. The Minister experience, I am prepared to accept their practically admits that by providing that report, which strongly recommends the 1,300 acres may be held as a block in acquisition of the estate. I cannot treat conjunction with the homestead. tht?ir report lightly, but if they had gone Mr.. MOORE: The hon. gentleman is a little further they would have fared a u~der a misapprehension about that! great deal better. . Mr. BEEBY: Taking it on the average Mr. BEEBY (Blayney) [8.23]: We basis, we have the fact that portion of have just seen the spectacle of a Govern the land is valued at £1 4s. per acre ment supporter who has the courage ·to unimproved, and the only portion on criticise this proposal, but he says he will which we have an improved value is not vote against it. We have had the valued at £3 2s. 6d. per acre. It seems to principle laid down on two or three occa· me that, in a matter of this kind, through sions lately, and even to-night, that if want of some definite fixed basis of valua members on this side criticise anything ti~n, we are unable to honestly give an - 1530~ Closer Settlement~. [ASSEMBLY.) Hardwiekc Bstate. opinion as to whether the bargain is .a._ and 1,300 acres for somebody. I am very· good one for the state or not.. The,re: IS glad that there is an opportunity of dis--· one feature of the resumptiOn· will,ch posing of that homestead, with 1,300 seems to show that these valuations are acres, for it enables us to deal with the · 0 not fixed upon proper business principles.. balance of the area for closer settlement We have the homestead and adjacent: purposes-to provide productive homes buildings valued at £2,365. I am not a · for the. class of settlers that we wish to • land-valuer, but I happen to have seen. place ·upon the land. These valuable . this property and the buildings, and it homestead improvements are always a.: seems to me astounding that that value source of embarrassment to us when we should be placed upon the buildings. , acquire an estate. They may have cost that amount, but to , . Mr. BuRGESS: Why 1,300 acres? all outward appearances it seems ahnost . Mr: MOORE: L c'imnot tell the hon. impossible to a layman that they could member why it should be 1,300 acres, ' have cost so much. Here, for an ordinary 1,250 acres, or 1,400 acres. We have our country homestead, we are paying the sum. responsible and competent advisory board of £2,365.. When you came to itemise an . that advises us in regard to these im amount -of that kind, which appears, on provements, and that is the advice given the face of it, to be an over-valuation, it to us in this case. When we come to sub- · naturally makes hon.. members distrust divide it may not be exactly 1,300 acres; the valuation as a whole, and come to the it may be a little less or a little more; conclusion that it is the result of a happy but as to the value of the homestead compromise, which, I admit, is inevitable buildings, I am prepared to accept the under the system under which these opinion of those competent men who com- ' estates are resumed. It points to the pose the advisory board. I do not know necessity of altering entirely the basis of what the value of that homestead is. The valuation, and resuming estates on some hon. member for Blayney does not know · £xed principle. I shall not vote against the value. The hon. gentleman may think · the proposal. Like the hon. member for that, on the face of :It, the value is too Wynyard, I content myself with offering high. The hon. gentleman said, "Fancy a little gentle criticism, and on this occa a country homestead valued at £2,365." sion I rejoice that in voting for a proposal }.fr. BEEBY: I was speaking in that way. which I have criticised I am in company .. because I have seen it! with a supporter of the Government. Mr. }.fOORE: If the hon. member }.fr. MOORE (Bingara), Secretary for claims to be an expert valuer, and has Lands [8.27], in reply: There is one point made a careful detailed valuation, I am which has been raised by the lion. member prepared to attach due weight to his - for Burrangong, and which has also been valuation. The hon. gentleman must re referred to by the hon. member for Blay member that these officers have to make a ney~that is, that in the case of the home detailed valuation in these cases. We stead block an area of 1,300 acres is pro had an estate offered to us the other day posed to be set apart. The hon. member where the homestead buildings cost be contends that when we resume land for tween £20,000 and £30,000. That put it closer settlement we have no right to pro out of the question; we could not deal vide 1,300 acres and a valuable homestead with it. Take the Walla Walla estate; for anybody; but I should like to remind we acquired 50,000 acres -there. If the him that when we acquire an area, owners had been content to retain 10,000 whether it is by resumption or by pur acres with the homestead, the Government . chase, we cannot exclude from it this area, · would have been very glad to deal with that area, or some other .area. We have 0 them, and take the remaining 40,000 acres to take the estate as a whole, or leave it. for closer settlement purposes.. But the · Mr. BuRGESS: I am· opposed .to the re Government had to take the whole 50,000 sumption of this estate altogether! acres, and we were fortunate enough to be Mr. }.fOORE: I am aware of that; but able to dispose of the homestead with . • the hon. member bases his argument on 3,500 acres. That left us nearly 40,000 the fact that, under the Closer Settlement acres to dispose of in farms, averaging Act, we are going to provide a homestead something like 500 acres each. [Mr. Beeby. . Closer Settlement. [10 AuG., 1910.) 'l'ibbe,-eenah Estate. · 1tr. McLAuRIN: But you have a good James, A. G. F. Nobbs, J. ·· farmer on it now J _Jones, R. Oakes, C. W. , Mr. MOORE: Exactly. At first we Latimer, W. F. Onslow, Col. J. W. M. Lee, C. A. · Perry, J. -could not get anybody ·to take it, and Levien, R. H. Robson, W. E. V. :then we got a man, a very fine class of Levy, lJ. Scobie, R. :settler, who took up the homestead block Lonsdale, E. Storey, J. 'with 3,500 acres. McCoy,R. W. W. 'l'aylor, ,V. McGowen, J. S. T. 'l'homas, F. J. : An HoN. MEMBER: A really good labour McLaurin, G. R. 'l'refie, J. L. man! Meagher, R. D. Waddell, T. 1\Ir. MOORE: I.do not care whether he Mercer, J. B. Wade, C. G. Millard, W. Wood, W. H. is or not, so long as he relieves us of it. Miller, J. J am surprised at the hon. member for Moore;'S. W. Tellers, J3urrangong, who represents a country Morton, l'\{: 1<~. McFarlane, J . electorate, saying that we did not pass. the . Moxham, T. R.: Parkes, V. Closer Settlement Act for the purpose of NoEs. providing 1,300 acres and a valuable Burgess, G. A. homestead for somebody. Seeing that we Dacey, J. R. Tellers, have to take the whole area or leave it, Meehan, J. C. Estell, J. we are glad when we are able to dispose Nicholson, J. B. McNeill, J. of the homestead improvements, and deal Question so resolved in the affirmative .. with the balance of the area in the way in TIBBEREENAH ESTATE. which we wish to deal with it. lifr. 1\fOORE (Bingara), Secretary · }.fr. BunGESS: I know what I am talk for Lands [8.44], rose to move: ing about. I am not talking in the dark. I lmow what land is suitable for closer That, pursuant and. subject to the pro visions of the Closer Settlement (Amend settlement, and what sort of land we ment) Act of 1907, this House approves of should resume ! the Uovernor resuming an area of J.2,296! Mr. :MOORE: That is another point. acres, more or less, of private land situ ate near N'arrabri, being the Tibbereenah If the hon. gentleman were a member of estate, included within an area covered the advisory board, I should attach a good by proclamation of intended acquisition deal of weight to his opinion, and I do published in the Government Gazette of not say that I do not attach any weight 22nd July, .1910, together with any im to his opinion now. But what I do say is, provements thereon. that we have these three competent men, He said : The Tibbereenah estate, em men of integrity, who, with a due sense of bracing an area of 12,296! acres (more the responsibility that rests upon them, or less), is situated close to the town of nave made a careful inspection ·and valua Narrabri. No part of the estate is more tion of this estate. They know all the than 2 miles ·from the railway line, local conditions, and they come and say or more than 4 miles from a rail that they strongly advise Parliament to way station. The railway stations in acquire this estate for closer settlement close proximity to the estate are Nar purposes. I am satisfied with that, and I rabri West, Tibbereena, and Turrawan, think that the majority of bon. members which are .351, 349, and 340 miles re are satisfied with it. spectively from Sydney. A notice of Question-That the motion be agreed intended acquisition was gazetted .c,n to--put. The House divided: 21st July, 1909, · and the advisory Ayes, '54; noes, 6; majority, 48. board's final report was furnished <'n AYES. 7th December, 1909. About 9,700 acres ·Ball, R. T. Fallick, J. (79 per cent.) are cultivable land. The ·Barton, C. H. Fell, D. balance is · poor country of a sandy Beeby, G. S. Fitzpatrick, J. C. L. nature, suitable for grazing only, Briner, G. S. · Gilbert, 0. which can, however, be absorbed with Broughton, E. C. V. Gillies. J. .Brown, W. Hall, B. the arable lands under suitable design Cohen, J. J. Henley, T. for subdivision. The estate is ada11ted Collins, A. E. Hindmarsh, G. T. for mixed farming, wheat and barley ·Cusack, J. J. Hogue, J. A. Davidson, R. Horne, H. E. growing, la:mb rai~ing, pig and poultry ·Donaldson, R. T. Hunt, J.C. farming, dairying, raising and fattening ;1532 Closer Settlement. [ASSEMBLY.] Tibbereenah Estate. stock. The deep soil on the river sumption. An agreement was arrived bank should grow perennial lucerne. at, but the time expired before we The estimated grazing capacity of the could bring the matter to finalitry, and, estate is a sheep to an acre, or a head to my surprise, the trustees of the es of large stock to 4 or 5 acres. The tate withdrew, and therefore we were area can be suitably subdivided into left no alternative but to go on with the about thirty farms, ranging from 150 resumption. We have to consider the to 700 acres, and averaging about 415 matter from this point of view : The acres. About twenty-seven small farms board's valuation of the whole area was will also be provided to embrace the £4 Os. 2d. per acre. They estimated part of the estate nearest the town cf the value of the land at £3 I7s. Gd. N arrabri. There will also be three per acre, and the improvements at 2s. small farms provided out of the 222 8d. per acre, making a total of £4 Os. acres which it was first intended to <'X 2d. per acre. That was their valuation. clude from the area to be acquired. The I want to be fair, but in view of the fact average annual rainfall at N arrabri for that there was an agreement with the a period of thirty-two years is 26.03 board for £4 1s. 6d. per acre for the whole inches. The Namoi River, to which tl>e area, or for a lesser price excluding the estate has 12 miles of frontage, affords 222 acres, which was by agreement, and a permanent water supply. The facili that £300 has to be deducted for depre ties for conservation in tanks and dams ciation owing to the flood, what chance are good, and water can probably be the owners have of establishing a higher obtained at very shallow depths all valuation is beyond my comprehension. over the estate. Irrigation could However, it is a matter for themselves. be carried on to a limited ex They refused to continue the agreement, tent on the banks of the N amoi and we have no alternative but to re River. The improvements (exclusive of sume. This estate is situated in wh<.'at ringbarking, yankee grubbing, and district No. 43. During the last fifteen clearing, which are inseparable from years-from 189() to 1910-the average the land) are valued at £1,694, com yielu per acre has been 12 bushels. In prising homestead, huts, tanks, yards, 189() the area under wheat in the district fencing, &c. The advisory board re was only 250 acres, from which a return commended the acquisition of the whole of 1,8()0 bushels "·as obtained, or an estate, inclusive of improvements, at averag·e of n bushels per acre. In 1910 £4 Is. 6d. per acre, and the ow!l<~rs there were 7,764 acres under wheat, the agreed to sell the property at that return being 121,83:1 bushels, or an ave price. It was afterwards arranged that rage of nearly 131 bushels per acre. That the part of the estate (222 acres 0 roods shows the possibilities and the probabili 24 perches) within the Narrabri West ties of wheat production. As to the municipality, valued at £10 per acre, number of :farms that can be pr<>vided out should be excluded from the area to be of this area, I may say that the plan of acquired, leaving a balance for acqui subdivision shows thirty home mainten sition of about 12,074 acres. Since the ance areas in addition to about twenty 'board's inspection was made some dam seven workmen's blocks, and three small age resulted from floods, and it was farms, into which the 222 acres within agreed that £300 should be deducted the municipality of West Narrabri can on this account. When I had the papf:r he subdivided. The b!.!lk of this land, in now before hon. members printed, it fact the whole of it, with the exception was in connection with a notice of of two small areas, is outside the muni motion for the acquisition by purchase cipal boundaries. There are 312 acres of 12,074 acres. Now I am moving a within ~he N arraLri municipality and :l2Z resolution for the resumption of· the ncres within the \Vest N arrabri munici whole area of 12,296 acres. pnlity, and those two comparatively small Mr. TREFLE: But the price is not areas will provide about thirty small fixed I holdings; whilst outside the two munici Mr. MOORE: No, the price cannot palities the balance of the estate will ·be fixed, because it is a matter of re provide about thirty home-maintenance [Mr. Mo.ore. Closer Settlement. [10 AuG., 1910.] Tibbereena'h Estate. 1538 ·areas. Ron. members will see that it will ment it is better to do it than to forcibly make a very satisfactory subdivision. resume and incur all the delay, expense, So far as values are concerned, .the local and uncertainty of going to the Appeal government values are as follows: The Court. I am exceedingly sorry that, 11,762 acres in the Namoi shire are after coming to an agreement in this valued at £3 4s. (unimproved) and £3 particular case, the trustees refused to lOs. (improved) ; the 312 acres within allow the agreement to continue. Prob the Rarrabri municipality are valued ably the matter was complicated by .·confined to a very small area of that country. One who knows· that · counhy district, and the results have been very knows the reasons at the back of the • _promising indeed. Last year, .in Nar efforts being made to stamp as grazing rabri alone, the wheat yield went up country, country that is eminently fit ·as high as 40 bushels to the acre, and for agriculture. Some years ago a . during the past ten years, although gentleman, who is now dead, expressed _-.that district has never been looked upon the opinion that water could be ob . as. a ·wheat-growing district, there has tained by boring for artesil).Il supplies ~een only one absolute failure, and, in the Coonamble district. He was in a . as the Minister has told the House, t.he position where he was earning his bread . average yield in that period has been and butter, and he was given a hint . no less than 12 bushels; while last year, that if he talked about finding artesian with a satisfactory season, it went up to water by boring, it would be a bad · between 30 and 40 bushels to the acre. thing for him. He took the hint, held .It only shows the great possibilities for his tongue, and it was a good many :dairying, as well as for wheat-growing, vears before water was discovered. The ..of that district, and that it only re . ~easou that was at the back of the dis- ,quires a little assistance from the Govern couragement of the artesian water is .ment to· make it go ahead by leaps and the same reason that is now at the back ;.bounds. of branding country as grazing country Mr. T REFLE ( The Castlercagh) which is fit for agriculture. The Oppo [9.4]: I congratulate the Government sition is pleased with the experiment ·.on ·this resumption more heartily than in that district to try to assist in ()n the last one, and the Opposition spreading the wheat belt further west, intend to support it as a body. It is and I have every confidence that it will ()De of the class of holdings that should be extended. There is the question . .be resumed. We regret very much in of the possibility of floods. Although -deed that the opportunity of securing it may appear at first sight dangerous . it without going to law has been missed, to resume land that is subject to floods, -especially in view of the shire valua yet it is well known that some of the tion, and the price arrived at by the best lands in the world are occ:.tlrionally .advisory board, and arranged with the flooded . manager at the time. I think the re r.Ir. BFHGJ·:ss : It has been flooded :sult of the coming proceedings will only once in twenty Jears ! be to put money into the hands of the Mr. TREFLE: Just so. But even legal gentlemen concerned; yet we can if it were frequently flooded, it has to not complain, as the vendors, in exer be remembered that the finest lands on -cising their rights, cannot be criticised. the Nile are subject to inundation. I It is their business, and not ours, agree also with the Minister's remarks though, of course, it would have been with regard to drought. It is nature's better for all parties if an arrangement method of restoring wheat lands. It ~ould have been arrived at. The posi- destroys a number of weeds and injuri . tion of the land affords an excellent ous herbs, and gives the land a rest, ()pportunity of giving a very good test to and the farmer takes off a double crop ·that class of country for farming, owing next time . . to its close proximity to the town of Nar Question resolved in the affirmative. rabr.i and the railway. One can say that, even if farming be not altogether a ADDITIONAL SITTING DAYS. success, the subdivision will not be an ·error, owing to the town and the rail- Motion (by Mr. WADE) proposed: way being so close to the estate. But That, during the remainder of the pre ·l have no hesitation in saying that the sent session, unless otherwise ordered, 'wheat belt is going to be extended con this ·House shall meet for the despatch of business at 4 o'clock p.m. on Mondays, siderably. .There is a steady effort a1id 2 o'clock p.m. on Fridays, in each ·being made in a large portion of New week, and Government business shall take South Wales, for a particular reason, precedence of general business on every . to stamp this ·country as grazing ·sitting day. [Mr. Colli11s. Fisheries [lq A'Ua., 1910.] . (A mendmen t) ..Bill. 1535. Mr. TREFLE (The Castii;reagh) see that the first part .of it deals with the [9.10] : I hope the Premier does not in constitution and po;wers of the present tend to have Monday sitting~. It is Fisheries Board. As a matter of fact, it is• exceedingly inconvenient to hon. members. proposed to dissolve the present board,. A number of hon. members cannot be and to establish the principle of Minis here by 4 o'clock on Mondays.· terial administration direct, as far as the Mr. WADE: If we can make this sacri work of controlling the .fisheries. is con fice on Monday next, ·I think it will free cerned, with the aid of an advisory board~ the whole House.at the end of the week! in contradistinction to the principle· em·· . Mr. J. STOREY: Is it intended to sit on bodied in the existing act, which centres Friday night? the whole administrative work practically· Mr. WADE: No! in the hands of the Fisheries Board. I Question resolved in the affirmative. know that I am justified, and ought to put before hon. members clearly why I FISHERIES (AMENDMENT) BILL. have determined to take this step. I do· SECOND RE. 1 have found it to be rather unsatisfao- the conflicts that take place between 4:ory in some directions, which I have oyster lessees and other persons who have stated to the House; As regards tbe interests which are affected by oyster proposed amendment" dealing with the leases. After all, it merely gives the :fisheries interests generally, it is proposed right to the Crown to step in and estab that· the present system of leasing be .Jish a way. of access in the interests of materially altered, first by the grading of their own representatives, and that they The one practical man they did get was would have practical men. Of what use a man who was charged with having is the Fisheries Board at all unless the formed a combine with other big men Minister follows out his own suggestion? in New South Wales to control the There was a number of men who were whole of the oyster production, and, as supposed to be practical men when the I said on the floor of the House, it was department created the Fisheries Board. not only to the detriment of the depart If they did not possess practical men in ment, but to the detriment of the state. the department they should undoubtedly I read in the p~pers, and the Minister have obtained the services of some prac read in the papers, that since the tical, capable· men to administer the fishermen's represent~ttive has been affairs of the .board. The Minister prac there, his voice has been like the voice tically says there is no such man in the of one crying in the wilderness. He has S€rvice. He is going to get such a man, been treated by the other members of and create him as a chief inspector or the board as if he were a leper. He is director. Whether he is to be Mr. Far there to represent the fishermen's inter nell or Mr. Brodie, I do not know. If he ests, but I do not suppose he has ever i·s .not someone permanently engaged in succeeded in carrying one proposal. I the administration of this board, who is know that on manv occasions he has he going to be? Hon. members cannot failed to get a sec;nder. Under the forget the experience we had last session strained relations which the Minister with the creation of the Dental Board. acknowledges exist, not one thing , We had an assurance that a certain which he would suggest could be carried gentleman would not bf:l on it, and when out. The necessitv for this bill is ac the board was created Professor Anderson knowledged, but (regret that the. Min Stuart was on it. Hon. members will not ister has waited so long, and comes forget the serious allegations made by down with it at this time. These men, the Chairman of Committees with regard who ha>e gone to a lot of trouble, and to the Registrar, and now we find that represent something like forty-eight that gentleman is made a public officer on different constituencies where these that board. One would imagine that the oyster lessees are working, and where department would have some men in the there was an absolute unanimity with service to giv~ advice and instruction regard to the necessity for the amend and help to the people. ment of the act, point out this very im :M:r. DACEY: Is it not possible that the portant fact: that, with the exception Fisheries Board might set up a plea that of Mr. Stead, the naturalist, who has the department is responsible for their given a great deal of time to the sub failure? ject, there is not a practical man on Mr. }.fcGOWEN: Quite so. I am not the board; and Mr. Stead can hardly going to say anything about that. We be classed as a practical commercial had an interjection from the hon. mem man. He is a theoretical man. They ber for Wynyard, and the Minister talk about the fishermen, and they say acknowledged that there has been friction the young fishermen are hardly able to in the board, and that he found that he give advice on the matter of oyster cul was only head in name. He says: "Under tivation. Who is the man the hon. this new creation of mine I am going to gentleman is going to put into the posi get some practical men who are capable." tion to ensure an improv.f')ment of the I would like to know who they are. conditions I refer to1 I know the hon. Mr. DACEY : Are not all the men C'n gentleman will forgive me for my re the board practical men 1 ference to his statement as to the Den 'Mr. McGOWEN: No. The oyster tal Board, because he was very confi ·lessees selected one of · their number. dent, and he was deceived. When the There happened to be a disagreement hon. gentleman listened to the charge bcause this oyster lessee was a man who made by the Chairman of Committees ·belonged to a big combine who own.~d against the Registrar, he did not be nearly all the leases, and got the piek lieve that the Public Service Board of them. The Minister was quite right. would put him there as their servant, Fisheries [ASSEMBLY.] (Amendment) Bill. and continue him in his position. It cause the bill said "the Governor may is right for us to know where he is going appoint." It did not say "it is neces to get his remedy from. sary he shall appoint," but "the Go Mr. WooD: Whoever is appointed vernor may appoint a board of not can be dealt with on the estimates the more than five persons." same as any other public officer. Surely Mr. ·wooD: I do not mind "shall" I it is the same thing l Mr. McGOWEN : And then he goes • Mr. McGOWEN: The hon. gentle on to make allowance for three of those man knows, and the House knows, that' men. One such member may be a he told the truth when he said that Pro licensed fisherman-he may not be a· fessor Anderson Stuart was not going licensee--;--one an oyster lessee, and one. to be on the board. nut the hon. gen acquainted with the conditions in New tleman made a mistake, although l,e South Wales. What I want to point was the framer of the bill. out is, that the Minister is setting about. Mr. WooD: That has nothing to do a reform, the underlying principle of with this. That was due to the Univer which is to bring back Ministerial con sity definition of "faculty" or "depart trol over a department which I agree with ment." That has nothing to do with a the hon. gentleman shc.uld never have public department l been taken away, because it is absolutely Mr. McGOWEN: Did not I call the against the principle of responsibility attention of the hon. gentleman to it 1 to delegate to a board certain functions The hon. gentleman was backed up by and to prevent Parliament from criticis the hon. member for Surry Hills when ing the Minister; because when we criti he said that I was wrong in the infor- cise him, the hon. gentleman says: "I , mation that I got. The information have no power; ;you have handed it over came to me as leader of the Opposition. to the board." I say the anomaly ought' I did not seek it. never to have existed. What I complain Mr. WooD: The Government, in the of is, that the hon. gentleman has brought Upper House, endeavoured to make forward this matter so late, after so much that position clear, and was assured J:.y injury has been done, and is forcing it the representatives of the University upon our considt:ratiun when we have that there would be no mistake mad that from the very start you engender .the different interests affected, especially friction if you do. not allow the varied the oyster lessees and the licensed fisher ·interests to appoint their own represen men. tatives on the board. I am now dealing Mr. W ooo: I have no objection to that! ·with the board as an advisory board. Mr. :M:cGOWEN: That will be an im I rather like the idea of its being ·provement. an advisory board. I believe in Min Mr. .T. STOREY: An inland fisherman _isterial responsibility, so that the could not be elected! ·House can deal with the Minister, Mr. McGOWEN: Not unless the ama .and he can know from top to bot teur fishermen come in there . tom what is going on in his depart Mr. J. STOllEY: Who is to determine ment. I think that in this case it v:ill be who an; amateur fishermen? .a great improvement on tho present 1Yir. McGOWEN: If the Minister will method, and I do not object to it. But allow those people the power of election, ,·1 say that if we wipe out the democratic my objection on that point is met. Seve ':principle, as the hon. member did in the ral of the other clauses of the bill can .case of the Dental Board, it is a retro be better dealt with in Committee. I .grade step which is likely to cause fric r,hould like to know whether it is in tion. If hon. members had only seen tended that the Chief Inspector of Fish the number of complaints I have received eries shall be an expert as regards fish from practising dentists with regard to ing and o;j>·ster cultivation, or whether he what was done in relation to the Dental . is to be an expert only as regards admin :Board, they would know that it creates istration. A certain individual may be a friction from the very start if you do not very good administrator, but in regard :allow those interested to have a choice. to fisheries matters generally he may be Mr. J. STOllEY: They would not be quite as much at sea as the Minister feels .dominated by the 1Yiinister if elected! he would be if he did not have an ex · Mr. McGOWEN: This is to be a board pert to help him. The bill says the consideration. I do not agree with him direct control of the Minister without that the bill has been suddenly sprung on having a responsible officer under him to the House, because it was introduced last control the department. session, and there has been ample time to llfr. Wooo: consider it. All of us are practically Mr. McFARLANE: If the Minister ugreed as to the necessity for passing the will allow that official to have absolute m£asure, and, generally speaking, the bill control over the other officers in the de should commend itself to the House. It partment, and, like the director of for is to be hoped that, when the amending estry, he reg}lonsible only to the :Minister, bill leaves Parliament, it will be accept he will be doing the right thing-. able to those directly concerned in the Mr. WOOD: That is to say, it should be fishing industry and in oyster culture. A a sub-department? good deal has been said with regard to Mr. ll!cFARLAN E: Yes. - the advisory board, and the operations of J\fr. \;v~ OOD: I can hardly concede that! the existing board. It has been pointed 11£r. liicF ARLANE: I am afraid the out that there has been considerable dis Minister will not meet with the success catisfaction with the existing board. I that he anticipates unless he adopts some have no doubt that there is some truth in such course as I have indicated. I do that statement, but it is almost impossible not know what the functions of the ad for any board to give universal satisfac visory board will be, but it would appear tion. I remember the time very well, that they will not be of a very important .about twelve or thirteen years ago, when or useful character. They are not defined there was' no Fisheries Board, and when in the bill, but it is generally understood the fisheries were under the direct con that advisory boards have not sufficient trol of the -Minister. The dissatisfaction power. An important department like then was far more acute than it has been this should be presided over by a highly since the institution of the present board. competent official, and I strongly urge Tho very reason why the board was on the liiinister to have a director of en~ated '"as in view of the dissatisfaction fisheries. Y ery hard things have been that then existed. Those who are now so said about the existing board. They are strongly advocating the abolition of the held responsible for the falling-off in Fisheries Board, and placing the fisheries the production of oysters, but there arc under the di.rect control of the 111:inister, various causes for a falling-off in oyster must not b,e surprised if they do not get production. For instance, diseased :he satisfaction which they anticipate oysters may be responsible for a falling- when the desired change is made. I am 011', and the board cannot be held respon in accord with the proposal to have the sible for that. From what I can gather, industry more under the direct control the board has not had sufficient power. of the :Minister; but I think it would be It has been said that they do not spend very desirable, instead of having an ad money in carr~'ing out oyster culture and visory board, to have a director of fish various other things connected 'with th~ eries, just as we have a director of for fishing industry. I have been given to €Stry, and just as we had a few years understand that years ago the board ago a director of agriculture, who had made recommendations for the carrying practically sole control of the depart out of reforms, but those recommenda ment, and was responsible only to the tions have uot ooen given effect to. The lVIinister. If that course were adopted I board, not having the control of the think it would be more satisfactory than funds, have had to approach the Minister, the proposal contained in the bill. I have and to recommend certain expenditure. bad considerable experience as a repre The board have had no other method of he g{lts any return. He has to wait for difficulty. If we are going to deal in the oysters to develop. If he has the mis common fairness with the lessees, the fortune to strike a particularly hot day inspector's advice must be taken. When .in the summer he may lose half the oys you define a boundary as from high .ters growing -on his lease; and if, on top ·water mark, 60 yards out in the stream, of that, the Works Department come a stake is put up, and that interferes .along and want to build a wharf or some with fishermen and people plying with other work, they may take away his lease boats, especially. at night time. I know without paying him any compensation at· ·d a number of boats that have run into all. It is only fair to give the oyster 'those stakes. You would not want those lessee exactly the same rights as a Crown stakes if you defined the natural boun lessee has. vVe recognise wnant rights on daries from low-water to high-water Crown lands, and ought to recognise that marks, and left the inspector to advise the oyster lessee has the same rights. Aii the Minister in cases where t[tat natural to compensation, there are occasions when . boundary could not be taken, such as in perhaps, some private individual will buy ·a narrow creek, or &omething of that the foreshore. In that case the oyster kind. At the present time, an oy:;ter lessee ought to have a right to compensa lessee has no right to remove stone from tion. Another clause in the bill is in Crown land abutting on his lease. If an :regard to the 60 yards width of lease. oyster lessee takes up a lease abutting on 'This is a matter which affects the every Crown land, he should have the right to -day working of the men. These oyswr take ston l\fr. ·woon: How can I understand Mr. McGowEN: How have they been' when there is no machinery to enable prevented 1 me to understand 1 Mr. DONALDSON: Because of the }.Ir. SCODIE: The hon. gentleman waut of money. We have asked for it has brains enough to understand the over and over again, but we have sel point I am making. In my electorate dom or never got it. Some people there are many fishermen, and many are under the impression that the Min persons fish in the rivers for their own ister should run the Fisherie3 Depart sport. I do not rise to speak in oppo ment. I will take this opportunity to sition to the bill, but some special con point out what the act of 1902 says. sideration should be given to the great Section 4 reads : region I represent. I consider it is 'fhe duty of protecting, developing, and unnecessary to bring in such drastic regulating the fisheries of New South legislation, and make people pay a ·wales shall be vested in a board, which license for catching fish in those wes shall consist of a chairman and nine bther members, to be called the Board of Fish tern rivers, where they have been ac eries for New South ·wales. . . • customed to catch them for nearly a The duties, powers, and authority of the hundred years as freely as possible. board shall extend to the territorial limits Special land legislation has been passed of the said state. for the weotern division; so why not The board shall deal with all matters connected with or concerning the better exclude that division from the opera regulation of the fisheries, or any class, tion of this bill, or bring in a nieasure group, or portion thereof; the closure or which will deal specially with the fish opening of any tidal or inland fisheries; the supervision and protection thereof; eries question in that part of the coun the determination of tho weight or sizes try 1 Legislation which might suit the of marketable fishes; tho size of market country as far as Hay will not suit the able oysters ; tho dimensions, meshes, and extreme west. The seasons are differ mode of hauling of nets, and the employ ent. The fish do not spawn at the one ment of any other implements for the catching of fish : the acdimatisation of time. This is a difficult subject. It fish: the cultivation of fish and oyster:>; is the practical fishermen in the wes the developme:1t of the fishing industry; tern division who have been the means tho exploration of offing grounds suitable of enlightening the present members of for trawling: the improvement and cheapening of the supply of fish to the con the board with regard to the peculiar sume I-s; the protection of the intereds of conditions in connection with the in fishermen, and generally on all matters dustry in that part of the country. I pertaining to the development and regula hope the :Minister will give some con tion Gf the fisheries within the territorial limits of New South Wales. sideration to the views I have put be fore him. No hard-and-fast rules 'l'hose powen are very comprehensive, should be applied to a part of the state but the board was never in the position which is not as thickly populated as to exercise any of them. I do not think those parts nearer to civilisation. I have ever attended a meeting of the Mr. DONALDSON (Wynyard) [11.45]: board but there has been some cause of Many speakers have expressed pleasure friction, 0:1 account of the board en that some change is going to take place deavouring to do something, and being in the administration of our fisheries, frustrated bv the Chief Secretarv's De and they have welcomed the bill as an partment. • 'i'hcl·e has hardly been a improvement on the existing act; but meeting when we have not expressed the there is no section of the people, either opinion that we ought to resign in· a inside the House or out· of it, who wel body. I speak, not only of ·the six come the change more than the members amatcur3, wha never receive a penny of of the baard. During the three or four recompense for their time and work, years I have been on the board, I can but also of the n'presentative of the honestly say that it has been crippled, profe.,sional fishermen. It has been in fact, almost hamstrung, in every humiliating to l!avc anything to do with endeavour it has made to bring about the Loard. When it was proposed to some radical change in the direction of ~end fry to somevne in the country, to providing cheaper fish for the consumer. Le liberateJ, tl!e Leard had to go cap- [.llr. ScolJl~. Fisheries [10 Aua., 1910.] (Amendment) Bill. 1555 in-hand to the Chief Secretary to get Mr. W oon: In the case of the :IYiines or. the price of a railway ticket. We could any other department under my control, not spend a pound for the purpose of if I want information I can get it. But liberating fry without getting sp~cial in this case I can get nothing ! permission. Nobody welcomes a change Mr. DONALDSON: I do not ·suppose more than the members of the board. I there has ever been a more energetic or know the personnel of the board has industrious man in charge of the Chief been roughly spoken of during the last Secretary's Department than the present two or three years. There are six honor Minister, but it is absolutely impossible ary members, who give a good deal of for him to go into these matt€l"s. I can time to the work. I have carried tens prove that papers have been sent down to of thousands of trout fry up the his department on matters of importance country, and I have had to pay freight from the Fisheries Department, and they for carrying the tins on coaches, and have been lying on his table, not for I have helped to distribute them, in twelve months, but for two years, and they common with other members, but I are lying in the department still. never got a copper for it. It was a Mr. Woon: I do not think that is right. pleasure for me to do it, but the mem There are papers which have been before bers of the board have not had such a me for a considerable time, on which no soft thing as many hon. members seem action has peen taken by me, because I to think. I know that large sums of have never been able to satisfy myself money have been asked for. . £1,000 that the course proposed was right. was asked for the cultivation and dis Mr. DONALDSON: The hon. member tribution of marine fish, but that was has never had time to deal with them. wiped off unceremoniously. £100 was :Mr. W oon: That is wrong! asked for to carry out an experiment 1fr. DONALDSON: It is like the old in oyster culture, but that was wiped off days, when there was a member of the without rhyme•or reason. We applied Government who used always to say when to the Chit£ Secretary, but he has riot anything was proposed to him, "Better had time to devote to this business. He not." Whenever there was the s!ightest says he has been asked for a sum of doubt he would always say, "Better not; money for the cultivation and distribu let it slide." The board has been emascu tion of fish, but that he had no oppor lated. We have never had any power. It tunity of knowing anything about it, has been the most humiliating position I except by referring the matter back to have ever occupied. the board. I am certain that no sums Mr. McGowEN: Could not the JI.Iinister of money have been asked for without have obtained all the information he full particulars being supplied, but wanted by sending for the chairman of they must never have reached the Chief the board? Secretary. With his multifarious Mr. DONALDSON: I should think so. duties, ho~< can he find out whether or Mr. W oon: Was there any great differ not the expenditure was justified? I ence in the administration before I took am sure that if full particulars were office and afterwards ? supplied in every case, and if they Mr. DONALDSON: I will not say reached the Minister, he had no time to that. The Minister says that he was devote to the matter. I am not blam asked for some money to be subscribed ing the :Minister. The Minister seems conjointly by other states, for hatching, to think that it will be a great change cultivating, and distributing indigenous for the better if he has sole control of £shes on, I presume, the River Murray, the administration. With his large and that that was all he knew about it. and very important duties as adminis Now, our chairman was authorised by the trator of charities, of the Lunacy De then Premier, Mr. Carruthers, to proceed to Melbourne to attend a federal confer partment, of the police, and as Minis ence, with the view of getting the best ter of Mine;;, how can he attend to this opinions as to the mutual cultivation of additional work, with regard to the our best fishes, and to establish a floating cultivation and distribution of fish 1 hatchery on the Murray. Am I to be 15156 Fisheries [ASSEMBLY.). (Amendment) Bill. , told that the chairman went there on his provided, you will not get anybody to sit own account~ The Minister said he did on it. If the Minister gives them suffi not .know what this was for, and how the cient remuneration, he may get some men money was to be spent. I say that was on the board; but if men are going to one of the most useful things that could meet and confer as to what should b~ have been done. We are spending a good done, and then be dependent upon the deal of money in the cultivation and dis will of the Minister, who has not the time tribution of foreign fish, such as trout, to attend to matters, as to whether their and rightly so. But we have shamefully recommendations shall be carried out, the and scan Mr. Woon: Might I suggest that the poses, If that provision be passed, it question be left· for discussion in Com will have the effect of causing a great mittee. I shall not make a fight for it; I deal of conflict. If clause 10 be do not want it especially I amended, as well as the provision relat Mr. BEEBY : Very well, when the ing to submitting lands to auction, I clause comes on in Committee, I shall think hon. members will be wise to pass. move an amendment. I regret that we the bill. The provision as to sale by have not had the opinions of the hon. auction would give the opportunity tO> member for Gloucester, who knows more certain persons to control the whole of about these matters than most of us. a bay or foreshore. The bill simply There seems to be a great deal in the gives effect to representations that were contention, that some definite power made to the Minister by a deputation, should be placed in the hands of prac which included the hon. members for tical men dealing with this department. Redfern, Waratah, Durham, Wickham,. The only proposal is to have an advi and The Clarence. Generally speak sory board. ing, the bill meets the necessities; but. Mr. W oon : No. Clause 4 provides one or two alterations may be made in for a chief inspector. He is the man Committee. The measure will be of who is going to control it! benefit to the fishing industry, and do. Mr. BEEBY : That seems to be a con a large amount of good. tradiction. The Governor may appoint Mr. ESTELL (Waratah) [12.11 a.m.]: a board to advise the Minister, and I consider the bill a good one, but there then, under clause 4, there is to be a are several clauses which require amend chief inspector of fisheries. If there is ment. I am pleased that hon. members to be an advisory board, then clearly have come to the conclusion that it is far the advice given by that board should better to have Ministerial control over be to the chief inspector of fisheries. the department than to leave the admin The essential thing in a matter of this istration in the hands of a board. The kind is to place the power in the hands inharmonious relations which have existed of one person, and" give him authority, in the department since the present board within certain limits, to control, regu has been in existence have proved very late, and encourage the industry gene detrimental to the industry generally, rally. The two clauses seem to be in and the provision in the bill for the ap-' consistent. The other matter to which pointment of an advisory board, to act iru I refer is one of serious importance in conjunction with the l\1:inister in dealing: my electorate. There are some seventy ·with the industry, will be a great im or eighty men who occasionally go out provement. In connection with many of and fish in the river. They might not the oyster leases, more particularly on the fish more than once in a year; but oc Hunter River, it is necessary for the casionally the impulse seizes them, and lessees to put down logs and stones for they get a rod and try to catch a fish, the purpose of breeding oysters. A great and it seems to me that the license clause deal of reclamation work is going on in should be eliminated altogether. that locality at the present time, and Mr. PRICE (Gloucester) [12.8 a.m.]: there is no telling when the oyster lessees, I do not desire to unduly take up the who have spent a great deal of money in time of the House, but I wish to say cultivating oysters, may be deprived of that the old board was a failure, and their leases. In dealing with the~e leases that the present Fisheries Board has I think that we should recognise tenant not proved successful. We kn.ow that right in improvements, and that lessees the actions of the board have been pre should not be deprived of their leases judicial to those engaged in the in without the payment of compensation :for dustry. Taking the bill as a whole, I any improvements they may have ef think it wiil meet with the· approval fected. Unless some provision is made <>f hon. members, with the exception of in this di'rectiori great hardship will .two pr·ovisions, one of which is the be inflicted upon lessees, who have done 'limit of 60 yards, and which is simply their best to cultivate oysters on the _proposed for revenue"producing pur- Hunter River.·. I have previously directed • 1558 Fisheries (ASSEMBLY.] (Amendment) BiU. attention to the fact that very frequently the provisions as to the 60 yards limit. the small men among the oyster lessees I do not think there should be any such have not received fair play. 9.'he lessees · limitation. There are a large number have had representatives on the board, of flats above ordinary high-water mark but these men have been interested in the which might with advantage be used for big companies in Sydney, which have the cultivation of oysters; but instead of practically enjoyed a monopoly of the cutting up these flats into small areas, it oyster industry. The bill will do away would be far better to allow one lease to with the possibility of a man being ap be carried out to the low-water mark. pointed to the board and using his in With regard to clause 22, which pro fluence with a view to furthering his own hibits persons from taking oysters from ends. The happenings of the past in con breakwaters and training walls, I think nection with the granting of oyster leases that it may result in some hardship. I have amounted to a scandal, and we might mention the case of the break should do everything necessary to pre water at Swansea. Large numbers of vent the same kind of thing occurring picnickers go to Swansea, and many of .again. I know for a positive fact that them amuse themselves by obtaining the boards have been permitted to remain oysters from the breakwater. The most on a number of oyster leases long after formidable inplement which these pic the leases had lapsed, and those willing nickers would use in detaching the to take up the leases and cultivate oysters oysters from the rough rubble forming have been kept in ignorance of the fact the breakwater would be a big knife, and that the leases were available. Hundreds they could not possibly do any appre of leases on the Hunter River have been ciable damage. It would be a pity to cancelled, and no one outside the board expose picnickers, such as I. have de has been aware of the fact for years after scribed, to the risk of punishment such as wards. The practice followed in regard is contemplated in clause 22. Not only to Crown lands should be adopted in con would they be involved in expense, but also nection with oyster leases. Whenever a serious loss of time and great inconveni lease is given up or cancelled the inspec ence if they were caRed upon to answer tor of fisheries in the district should be a charge arising out of a breach of the notified, and the notice of cancellation law now proposed. There is one other vr expiry should be posted up in some matter which has been referred to. The public place for the information of those bill provides that a man must take out who may be interested. This is only a a license before he fishes for trout or sal matter of administration, but it has been • mon. I think this will be found to work a cause of scandal in the past, and I trust harshly upon a large number of men that under the new regime the remedy who fish in Lake Macquarie, or who go will be applied. Personally, I have had down to some of the southern rivers to occasion to frequently refer to the Fish indulge in this sport. Both the Opposi eries Board, and I have always received tion and the Government desire to do all the greatest amount of courtesy at the they can to assist fishermen to cultivate hands of the chairman, who has done these industries, in order that the public his best to remedy the grievances I have may have the benefit of a cheap supply brought under his notice. At the same of food. time, there is no doubt, that the state Mr. CARMICHAEL (Lcichhardt) ments which have been made by the Min [12.21 a.m.]: I agree with the hon. mem ister with regard to the administration ber for Waratah, that both sides of the of the board are absolutely correct. The House desire to do their utmost to assist fishermen have had a representative on a languishing industry, but although we the board, but his voice has been as that may be in agreement as to the desired of one crying in the wilderness. He has result, we may not agree on the means been absolutely powerless, because the of achieving that result. Important as other members of the board have almost the bill is, there may be serious differ of one accord put down their foot on any ences of opinion with regard to it. Per proposal he has brought forward. The sonally, I believe that in regard to a hon. member for Gloucester referred to number of the clauses, there will be con- [Mr. E8tell. • Fisheries (10 Aua., 1910.] (Amendment) Bill. 1559 sider:1blc disagreement, and under those probability, the same reasons will militata circumstances it does seem an extra- against the proposed advisory board. l.ct ordinary thing that the Minister should us take the reasons given by the hon. select practically the last week of a mori- member for Wynyard for the failure of bund Parliament for the introduction of the board, and see whether they will apply such a measure. If we are to believe the to the advisory board. Every hon. mem Premier, the present Parliament will only ber will admit the earnestness and ability sit for one week more, and yet we are with which the hon. member for Wyn asked to pass a bill which may have to yard has carried out his duties on the be altered to a large extent by the sue- board. What, may I ask, would be the cessors to the present Government. I do defe:1ce of that body? vVould it not be _ not think the time of the country ought that they have not had sufficient power, to be taken up in dealing with bills of and that ,vhatever they wished to carry this sort at this· juncture. out, and whatc:ver recommendations they Mr. WooD: \Ve are passing the bill at desired to make, were largely nullified the· request of the fishermen, practically! by the Minister in charge of the de- Mr. MEEIIA~: On a point of order, Mr. partrnent? If that is so, does it not Chairman. Is the hon. member in order come to this: that the Fisheries Board in talking about things which do not con- has been used as a buffer between the cern this bill? . Minister and the wants of the depart- The CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. mem- ment. When any particular reform or bcr must not irrelevantl.J interrupt. act of administration was necessary, the Mr. CARMICHAEl.-: It is generally :Fisheries Board took the responsibility; admitted that, for reasons over which but when it proved rather warm, the re they have no control, the present Fish- fpomibility was placed, to a Cflrtain ex cries Board have not satisfactorily ful- tent, on the inactivity of the Minister. filled the functions for which they were who naturally reciprocatd the action of created. The hon. member for Wynyard, the Fisheries Board by sending the re who is a member of the board, and who, sponsibility .back again on to the board, as a rule, stands up for the rights and :mel a game of battledore and shuttlecock privileges of that body, admitted that was carried on. You could not say that the bOard's administration had been un- the board were absolutely at fau~t, he satisfactory. In my opinion it has sig- cause they always passed it on to the nally failed. It was my intention to 11IiniBter. point out a number of instances in which · · 11Ir. WooD: The hon. member is talking the board have proved themselves to be nonsense! absolutely incompetent. Matters have Mr. CARMICHAEL: The hon. gen come under my notice, some of which I tleman must not think that he has :t have already ventilated, which constitute monopoly of the nonsense. an indictment of the board. Mr. WooD: Did the hon. member ever !Ir. MEEHAN: The bon. member is not read the act? saying one word about fish! Mr. CARMICHAEL : We heard front The CHAIRMAN: Order~ the hon. member for \Vynyard that con- Mr. CARMICHAEL: In matters of stantly things were placed before the Jlvfirr administration, both in regard to oyster ister, and the Minister said he did not have leases, the ownership of oyster leases, time, and the matters were placed on and the different inspectors, the action his desk for ~wo years. What were tl1e of the board has not been above re- Minister's words to the hon. member proach; in fact, it has merited a good for \Vynyard to-nighH Simply that "I deal of unfriendly criticism. I do not did not have time to go into them; and want to go into the evidence in my pos- when I have time" -- sesion, because it has been admitted by 1Ir. WOOD: I did not say that! the members of the board who have Mr. CARMICHAEL: I will take the spoken that the board has been a failure; hou. gentleman while his words are itr but it is necessary that we should con- the memory of the House. He said he Fider the reasons which have conduced to was not abie to get the necessary infor the failure of the board, because, in all mation from the board. He said that if rt 1560 Fisheries _L ASSEMBLY.] (Amendment) Bill. had bee11 a matter of administering the the whole of the ammunitions of war. :Mines Department, he could have gone .'I.be oyster leases supply some £7,000 to his expert officers and got the infor out of the revenue. 'l'he revenue re . rnation; and then he said, "When it is . ceived from the oyster leases is going to :a matter of the Fisheries Board, I can be applied, and has in the past, to a not go to the board and get the infor certain extent, been applied to the mation." The hon. member for \Vynyard building up of artifiical fisheries in the .:said that there were matters kept by inland waters. They are to be made 3. the Minister for two years, and the close preserve for the friends of the Go Minister said that was because he coul•l vernment, who can afford to take out not get expert information from the licenses in certain seasons. I am Fisheries Board. Does not that bear strongly opposed to anything of the Qut what I said about the responsibili sort. ties being thrown from the Minister to Mr. Woon: The hon. member's sugges the board, and back again. tion is worthy of him ! Mr. FITZPATRICK: The h