DÁIL ÉIREANN AN COISTE UM CHUNTAIS PHOIBLÍ COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS Dé Céadaoin, 30 Meán Fómhair 2020 Wednesday, 30 September 2020 The Committee met at 10 a.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Deputy Colm Burke, Deputy Marc MacSharry, Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill, Deputy Paul McAuliffe, Deputy Cormac Devlin, Deputy Imelda Munster, Deputy Alan Dillon, Deputy Catherine Murphy, Deputy Neasa Hourigan, Deputy Verona Murphy. DEPUTY BRIAN STANLEY IN THE CHAIR. 1 PAC Mr. Seamus McCarthy (An tArd Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste) called and examined. Business of Committee Chairman: Good morning. We have a quorum. We are joined remotely by the Comptrol- ler and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, as a permanent witness to the committee. We have received no apologies. The minutes of the meeting of 24 September have been circulated. Are they agreed? Agreed. As previously agreed, the minutes will be published. I propose that we go into private session to deal with some housekeeping matters before resuming in public session to briefly address our work programme, and deal with a lengthy list of correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed. The committee went into private session at 10.05 a.m. and resumed in public session at 11.20 a.m. Business of Committee (Resumed) Chairman: Before addressing correspondence, I will address our work programme. A number of members have sent suggestions to the clerk and I propose we address these this day next week. Later today, the Comptroller and Auditor General will publish the 2019 appropria- tion accounts, which are the accounts of Government Departments and offices. The Comp- troller and Auditor General will publish his 2019 report on the accounts of the public services which identifies issues which, in his opinion, merit consideration by the Committee of Public Accounts in the interests of transparency and accountability. A briefing note will be circulated to all members and I ask members to identify their priorities in relation to the publications. Members can read those and if they identify issues, they can bring them to the clerk’s atten- tion no later than next Monday. I ask members to pay particular attention to their priorities in relation to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and the Department of Finance, as these will be the first Departments to appear before the committee and that is what is in our work programme. The secretariat will compile a list of the bodies and issues that have been identified by members for consideration. Is that agreed? Agreed. I will move on to correspondence. At our meeting last week, we agreed we would deal with correspondence categorised as C which was received since the last meeting of the previous committee, held on 12 December 2019. I have reviewed the correspondence and a list of the correspondence with proposed actions was circulated to members last Friday. Members were requested to highlight for further discussion any items they wished and to determine a course of action on them. The committee has agreed that the decision of the committee in relation to all items of correspondence will be published as part of the committee minutes. Correspondence from private individuals or personal details must not be published, only decisions of the com- mittee in relation to the subject matter of the correspondence. I will move on to correspondence from and related to private individuals. The first is No. 2666C from an individual dated 13 December 2019, a complaint regarding rail services pro- vided by Iarnród Éireann. The matter is not within the remit of this committee and I note the 2 30 SEPTEMBER 2020 correspondence is also copied to a number of members, including the chairman of the transport committee. I propose we note that item. Deputy Catherine Murphy wished to raise this issue. Deputy Catherine Murphy: I felt there would be merit in seeking an update from the Na- tional Transport Authority, NTA. Chairman: Are members happy that we receive an update? Agreed. The next item of correspondence is No. 2668C and 2669 dated 16 December 2019 from an individual relating to the student transport scheme. The correspondence provides information obtained under freedom of information. The previous committee considered correspondence from the Department of Education and Skills responding to its queries regarding the uncom- mitted reserve element of the transport management charge of the cost of school transport and related financial reporting. The Department has stated that there is no profit and the uncommit- ted reserve in the transport management charge element of the cost could only be used for the school transport scheme. My understanding is that the last committee obtained useful informa- tion by taking the matter as far as it could. I propose to forward the correspondence from the Department to the correspondent and advise him that the committee’s consideration of the mat- ter is closed. Deputy Carthy, who is not present, and Deputy Catherine Murphy have flagged that they wish to comment on this. Deputy Catherine Murphy: The net point was that the accusation was that Bus Éireann made a profit on school transport and it was not reflected in their accounts. The particular indi- vidual sent us a sizeable amount of information over a period of time. Perhaps we could take that course of action and wait to see if the person corresponds with us again, with a view to looking at it if further points are raised. Chairman: I thank Deputy Murphy. The next piece of correspondence is No. 2676 from Deputy Catherine Connolly, dated 18 December 2019 regarding the Charities Regulator and the Galway University Foundation. Deputy Carthy is not present so I propose we note the item for discussion. Deputy Marc MacSharry: We could hold it over for him in case he asked specifically. That was what we would have done in the past. Deputy Catherine Murphy: Yes. Chairman: We will hold it over for next week. Deputy Marc MacSharry: If a member had to pop out or be at another committee then we would keep it for them. Chairman: Okay, we will keep it in play. The next item of correspondence is No. 2678 from Deputy Catherine Murphy, dated 20 December 2019 in relation to including the Office of Government Procurement on the work programme. Does Deputy Murphy wish to speak on this item? Deputy Catherine Murphy: We will be dealing with the work programme next week so it is an item we could consider at that point. Chairman: Okay. The next item of correspondence is No. 2698C from an individual, dated 9 January, providing information that was also sent to the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach in relation to the management of public property as- 3 PAC sets by the OPW. Deputy Hourigan has proposed the committee request that the OPW provide further information on the Hammond Lane site of the family courts. Is this proposal agreed, Deputy Hourigan? Deputy Neasa Hourigan: I saw in the note that it had been sent to other committees but I do think it is an issue for this committee. Some of us have been watching the saga of the Ham- mond Lane site for a number of decades at this stage so it is worth a bit of scrutiny. Chairman: Deputy Murphy has indicated. Deputy Catherine Murphy: I think last week Deputy MacSharry went through the issue with Miesian Plaza and I cannot see any scenario where the OPW will not be on our work pro- gramme. There are a variety of issues that need to be considered so maybe it is not just that it is on the work programme but we might sketch out what aspects we want to deal with and whether we can we deal with it next week. Chairman: I call Deputy MacSharry. Deputy Marc MacSharry: I agree with that. Given the new format with the two hour meetings, in situations where we might be bringing in the OPW, the Irish Prison Service, An Garda and others, it is going to take a number of meetings. Two hours is not going to cover it and I would rather we did not have only a cursory glance over what will be very important is- sues, because of limitations on time. That will also work very well with our legal advice about the accuracy of the invitation, what is going to be discussed and so on. We need to split them up and the organisations will have to be told we are going to need them perhaps four times. When we get up and running properly, perhaps we will be in a position to sit more often if there are rooms available. On Hammond Lane, apart from the need to get the family courts up and run- ning, which is more a matter for the justice committee, a peculiar thing happened when we had them here before. The project did not go ahead and it would have fallen due for a vacant site tax but instead of paying that they leased it as a builder’s yard. I asked if there was a change of use in planning permission for that and we did not get any answers. There is no doubt that there are people hoarding land nationally but in some instances we will probably have developers who are very hard-pressed to try to get a project off the ground and having to pay their vacant site tax while agencies of the State are doing the three-card trick to duck out of their financial obligations. That is an aspect of it as well. Chairman: Okay. There seems to be consensus that we include it in our work programme as one of the items we want to address with the OPW when it appears before the committee.