Select Investigative Committee 692
1 BEFORE THE SELECT INVESTIGATIVE COMMITTEE
2 STATE OF WYOMING HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
3 ------
4 In the matter of the investigation into issues relating to 5 budgetary and administrative activities within the Wyoming Department of Education and the Office of Superintendent 6 of Public Instruction, including issues identified by the Governor's Inquiry Team Report regarding the Wyoming 7 Department of Education dated June 13, 2013 and subsequent reports released or resulting from that inquiry. 8 ------9
10
11 TRANSCRIPT OF HEARING PROCEEDINGS
12 VOLUMEII(EVENINGSESSION)
13 **NONCONFIDENTIAL**
14
15 PURSUANT TO NOTICE duly given to all
16 parties in interest, this matter reconvened on for
17 hearing on the 7th day of January, 2014, at the
18 approximate hour of 5:18 p.m., at the Wyoming State
19 Capitol Building, Room 302, 123 Capitol Avenue, Cheyenne,
20 Wyoming, before the Select Investigative Committee,
21 with Speaker Tom Lubnau presiding, and Representatives
22 Mark Baker, Gregg Blikre, Kermit Brown, Cathy Connolly,
23 Kathy Davison, Mike Greear, Michael Madden, Glen Moniz,
24 John Patton, Ruth Petroff, Tim Stubson, Mary Throne and
25 Dan Zwonitzer in attendance.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 693
1 APPEARANCES
2 Special Counsel: MR. BRUCE SALZBURG Special Counsel 3 CROWELL&MORINGLLP 205 Storey Boulevard, Suite 120 4 Cheyenne,Wyoming 82009
5 MR.ROBERTC.JAROSH MR.KHALELENHART 6 SpecialCounsel HIRSTAPPLEGATE,LLP 7 1720CareyAvenue Suite 400 8 Cheyenne,Wyoming 82001
9 I N D E X PAGE 10 WITNESSES:
11 KAREN KAY KELLEY Examination-Mr.Lenhart 696 12 EXAMINATION BY THE COMMITTEE RepresentativePetroff 729 13 RepresentativeWinters 730 RepresentativeZwonitzer 732 14 RepresentativeDavison 736 RepresentativeMoniz 739 15 RepresentativeThrone 740 RepresentativeMoniz 743 16 RepresentativeGreear 743 RepresentativeThrone 744 17 RepresentativeBrown 745 RepresentativeZwonitzer 746 18 FurtherExamination-Mr.Lenhart 748 RepresentativePetroff 750 19 RepresentativeThrone 752 RepresentativeWinters 754 20 RepresentativeConnolly 756 RepresentativeZwonitzer 759 21 RepresentativeThrone 760 SpeakerLubnau 761 22
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Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 694
1 INDEX(CONTINUED) PAGE 2 WITNESSES:
3 ROGER WILLIAMS CLARK Examination-Mr.Salzburg 768 4 EXAMINATION BY THE COMMITTEE RepresentativeWinters 790 5 Examination-Mr.Salzburg 791 RepresentativeDavison 792 6 RepresentativeZwonitzer 793 RepresentativeThrone 797 7SpeakerLubnau 799 FurtherExamination-Mr.Salzburg 803 8 RepresentativeZwonitzer 808 RepresentativeWinters 809 9 RepresentativeThrone 811 RepresentativeConnolly 811 10SpeakerLubnau 813 RepresentativeZwonitzer 820 11 (***Pages 715 through 747 are confidential 12 and sealed in a separate transcript.)
13 (***Pages 784 through 802 are confidential and sealed in a separate transcript.) 14
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Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 695
1 PROCEEDINGS
2 (Evening session hearing proceedings
3 reconvened 5:18 p.m., January 7, 2014.)
4 SPEAKER LUBNAU: We're back on the record.
5 Now we're back on the record.
6 Nobody can leave the room without my permission
7 that's elected, except Superintendent Hill, who's not here.
8 Counsel, call your next witness. She's here.
9 MR. LENHART: Counsel calls Karen Kelley.
10 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Karen, did you receive
11 with your subpoena an initial advisement -- before that,
12 Committee, here's the road map. We got sloppy after 7:00
13 last night. We're going to go to 7:00 and we're going to
14 stop. Wherever we are at 7:00, the next logical breaking
15 point we're going to stop. If we get close with this
16 witness and there's not time to call another witness, we're
17 going to stop.
18 We do have food arriving at 6:00. We will take a
19 very short break to go get the food and come back. But
20 we're stopping at 7:00.
21 So that means that -- did you get your
22 advisement? Did you understand it?
23 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did.
24 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Did you understand it?
25 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 696
1 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Do you have any questions
2 about it?
3 THE WITNESS: No, I don't.
4 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Would you rise and raise
5 your right hand.
6 (Witness sworn.)
7 MR. LENHART: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
8 Also as a preliminary matter, we have a substantial part of
9 this witness will be in executive session. So when
10 Superintendent Hill returns, it may be worthwhile to make
11 sure Mr. Masters stays nearby.
12 KARENKAYKELLEY,
13 called as a witness on behalf of the Select Investigative
14 Committee, being first duly sworn, testified as follows:
15 EXAMINATION
16 Q. (BY MR. LENHART) Ms. Kelley, I know you watched
17 a substantial part of the testimony today. Were you
18 around when we talked about guidelines for interacting
19 with me, especially with regard to the court reporter
20 here?
21 A. I believe so. I don't --
22 Q. I'll go over it again, just to be safe. We have
23 the court reporter here to take down what we're saying
24 verbatim.
25 A. All right.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 697
1 Q. That means you and I need to talk separately,
2 don't talk over each other, because the court reporter
3 can't take that down very easily.
4 Also, if I ask you yes or no questions, nods of
5 the head, shakes of the head don't show up on the record.
6 A. Correct, I remember.
7 Q. Also uh-huh, huh-uh, that doesn't show up very
8 easily on the record either.
9 Lastly, if I ask you a question you don't
10 understand, just let me know, and I'll try to rephrase it
11 in a way you can.
12 A. Okay. Thank you.
13 Q. First, could you please state your full name.
14 A. Karen Kay Kelley.
15 Q. And how are you employed?
16 A. Right now I am currently retired.
17 Q. And how long have you been retired?
18 A. I've been retired for two and a half years.
19 Q. What did you do before you were retired?
20 A. Before I retired, I was the human resource
21 director at the Wyoming Department of Education. I
22 also -- once I retired, I did come back to the Department
23 for probably a six-month period to assist them with
24 whatever they needed in the human resource area, and I
25 will be returning to the Department of Education again
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 698
1 next Monday on another contract to help them.
2 Q. So before your contract extends, what was --
3 what was your role with the Department of Education?
4 A. When I was employed there?
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. I was a human resource supervisor.
7 Q. Could you describe your duties as a human
8 resource supervisor?
9 A. The duties included ensuring that all state and
10 federal laws, rules, regulations, policies and practices
11 were being followed by the Department. I wrote procedural
12 manuals, employee handbook. I made recommendations for
13 hiring, firing, reclassifications, salaries, promotions.
14 I opened the vacancies. I set up the interviews. At
15 times I was a part of the interview team. I did induction
16 of new employees. I was the benefits specialist. I
17 maintained the personnel files. I did investigations and
18 mediation sessions. I provided changes to the front
19 office for the organizational chart. I had signature
20 authority for the agency, and I had approval Level 3 for
21 the payroll system.
22 Q. Okay. Could you briefly summarize your
23 education background for us?
24 A. After high school I had one year of business
25 college. I am HR certified. I have been twice. I've
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 699
1 taken numerous HR classes. I went to conferences --
2 THE REPORTER: I'm sorry. Can you repeat
3 that? Just the last few words.
4 THE WITNESS: I've had a lot of training in
5 HR.
6 Q. (BY MR. LENHART) Could you also summarize your
7 employment history for us prior to your time at the
8 Department of Education?
9 A. Prior to the Department of Education I was in
10 the banking field for 20 years, where I served as office
11 manager. And I was supervisor of the administrative
12 staff, which also included human resources. I worked in
13 legal office for two years.
14 Q. When you started at Department of Education,
15 what -- what was your position?
16 A. My position at the Department of Education when
17 I started?
18 Q. Yeah.
19 A. I came in as administrative assistant. I was in
20 that position for a year, and then I was promoted into the
21 human resource office.
22 Q. Between your hire at the Department of Education
23 and when you became human resource director, how long was
24 that?
25 A. I moved into the human resource department in
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 700
1 1999. I inherited, if you will, the human resource
2 director duties in 2001.
3 Q. Okay. Let's turn now to your time at the
4 Department during the administration of Superintendent
5 Hill. What was it like to work at the Department with
6 Superintendent Hill?
7 A. The words I most commonly heard when I was there
8 during that time was it was a very hostile work
9 environment. Employees appeared to be on edge all the
10 time. There were health issues amongst some of the
11 employees that worked there. They would come and talk to
12 me, but they did not want to file a formal complaint about
13 anything because that felt to them like they were putting
14 a target on their back. The employees expressed fear of
15 Miss Hill and her leadership staff. They feared losing
16 their jobs.
17 I dealt mostly with resignations and transfers
18 out of our agency. I had employees that would come to me
19 and request my assistance in helping them to find other
20 jobs with -- as far as state agencies go.
21 Q. How did this environment compare to departments,
22 other directors, or other superintendents?
23 A. I worked under the Judy Catchpole
24 administration. To my knowledge, we experienced no
25 problems. It was a very good working environment.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 701
1 When Trent Blankenship came on board, I believe
2 I found it stressful.
3 The McBride administration, the employees were
4 treated with respect. They were told that they were
5 appreciated. Dr. McBride and Joe Simpson treated the
6 employees very, very well. And I had no -- none that I
7 can remember -- employees coming to me with issues.
8 Q. How would Superintendent Hill treat you
9 personally as an employee?
10 A. I felt like Miss Hill did not like me, and I
11 really didn't know why. The second week after she was
12 sworn in she came into my office and sat down and told me
13 how she did not trust me, but I don't recall her giving me
14 any reason as to why she said that. Frequently when she
15 spoke to me, her voice was, to me, a tone of anger. And
16 that's the way her demeanor was to me.
17 When I would be called in to her office for what
18 she deemed an infraction, she would be very close to me,
19 in my face, and she would raise her voice. On one
20 occasion she slammed papers down on the desk to emphasize
21 whatever point she was making. She would sit right in
22 front of me with her knees almost touching mine and lean
23 over and talk to me in a loud voice. She accused me of
24 being argumentative. She accused me of revealing
25 confidential human resource information. Sometimes I did
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 702
1 have problems getting information of an HR nature to do my
2 job.
3 Q. Okay. Why do you believe Superintendent Hill
4 treated you this way?
5 A. I don't really know. In one of what I called
6 her angry moments towards me, she told me that 500,000
7 people in the state of Wyoming had voted for her, and that
8 told her that everything the McBride administration did
9 was wrong, and that she was going to change everything.
10 And I got the impression that that meant staffing,
11 including myself. I believe that her preference was to
12 replace me with someone of her choice.
13 Q. Did your treatment by Superintendent Hill
14 influence your decision to retire?
15 A. Yes, it did, absolutely. I was suffering from
16 health issues, and the stress was too much for me to stay
17 at the agency. When I had first thought about retiring, I
18 had thought about retiring in December 2010 when
19 Dr. McBride left. Then I remembered how difficult it was
20 for a superintendent to transition into an office, because
21 I had gone through two of those previously. So I made the
22 decision to stay on specifically to help Miss Hill with
23 the transition. I told her that on two different
24 occasions. Her response was, "I don't want your help. I
25 know everything." And she wanted someone who was on board
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 703
1 with what she was doing.
2 On one occasion Miss Hill started questioning me
3 about retirement. She said that, "You were going to
4 retire in December of 2010. What does that mean? Are you
5 retiring soon?" And she just kept after me, and I just
6 simply said, "I don't know."
7 Q. Okay. While you were at the Department, did
8 Superintendent Hill or her leadership team make proper use
9 of the human resources department?
10 A. I had had surgery in November, December the year
11 prior, to make sure that I was available to Miss Hill when
12 she came in on January the 3rd. I -- I feel like the
13 human resource office should have been included when the
14 at-will employees were coming on board or when they were
15 terminated. I found out that we would have new at-will
16 employees simply by observing strange people on the floor.
17 When the at-will attorney was terminated, I was not
18 informed or consulted in any way. I found out about that
19 when another employee came into my office and said, hey,
20 So-and-so has been terminated, because I did not know
21 that.
22 Q. And that goes to my next question. Were you
23 consulted when employees were hired or fired?
24 A. Withtheatwill,no.
25 Q. What about for permanent employees?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 704
1 A. For permanent employees, I -- I don't recall any
2 terminations. I only had -- well, I had resignations, and
3 I had transfers, but I don't recall any terminations. As
4 far as hiring, I can't remember us hiring people. I'm
5 sure we did. And then if they were state employees, then
6 I would have had to have been involved.
7 Q. What impact did the use or failure to use
8 human -- the human resources department have on your work?
9 A. It made my job extremely difficult. The
10 environment with Miss Hill and her leadership staff was
11 very secretive. Information was not shared about
12 anything, and that included the HR work. So, yes, it did
13 make it extremely difficult. I never knew what to expect,
14 what I should be doing, or what I shouldn't be doing. So
15 it was stressful.
16 Q. Switching gears here a little bit. What process
17 must be undertaken to change your position from a
18 permanent position to an at-will position?
19 A. To change a permanent position to an at-will
20 position requires documentation being sent to the office
21 of A&I, and they would determine whether or not the
22 position was at a level where it would be changed into at
23 will. It also depended on who I worked with as to whether
24 the position was filled or vacant.
25 Q. Okay. Was the process different for a vacant as
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 705
1 opposed to a filled position?
2 A. Yes,itwas.
3 Q. Howwasitdifferent?
4 A. For a vacant position it was a lot easier. I
5 would receive a request -- or should have received a
6 request from the superintendent. I would attach to that a
7 job description of the position, and I would send it to
8 A&I, who would review it, and they in turn would make that
9 determination.
10 If there was an employee in the position, that
11 was different. Then I would bring in the Attorney
12 General's Office. There had to be a contract for the
13 employee, giving them some type of consideration or
14 compensation to give up their state roll status to move
15 into an at-will status.
16 Q. What was the practice of the Hill administration
17 regarding changing permanent positions to at-will
18 positions?
19 A. What I recall is I was told by Ms. Hill that she
20 wanted to change every position in the Wyoming Department
21 of Education to at will. I told her I did not believe
22 that was possible. She asked me to relay that information
23 to A&I, which I did. A&I came back to me and said this is
24 not possible. I told that to Miss Hill, and she said, "I
25 will work with A&I myself." And I don't recall having any
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 706
1 further -- anything further to do with at-will positions.
2 Q. Without naming names, are you aware of the Hill
3 administration changing any permanent employees that -- so
4 existing employees from a permanent status to an at-will
5 status?
6 A. I know that there was a list of positions drawn
7 up by A&I and given to the Department that listed all the
8 positions that were being changed from at will to -- from
9 state to at will. I remember seeing one employee in a
10 state position. It just caught my eye when I was there
11 working on contracts, because I knew her. So I know that
12 one position, state position, had been changed to at will.
13 Q. So as to that employee, did you see anything
14 showing that the -- the administration complied with the
15 state rules on changing that designation?
16 A. I looked in the employee's personnel file when I
17 was there, and I couldn't find any documentation to tell
18 me what had happened. I couldn't find how the employee
19 went from state to AWEC status. Or not AWEC, I'm sorry.
20 At will. I -- I couldn't find a contract where she had
21 received compensation or consideration. I did not find
22 the required signed acknowledgment form where she would
23 have acknowledged that she was in at-will status.
24 If she had left her state position and gone to a
25 different at-will position, there still should have been
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 707
1 something in the file that indicated this change was made,
2 and the acknowledgment form should have been in her file.
3 I did not find that.
4 Q. Okay. So you referenced an acknowledgment form.
5 What evidence should there have been showing compliance
6 with the state rules with that employee?
7 A. Other than the contract for --
8 Q. Even including the contract, which there may
9 have been.
10 A. Okay. The contract should have been in there,
11 maybe even a letter. All at-will employees are required
12 to have an acknowledgment form stating that they
13 acknowledged that they are at-will employees and can be
14 dismissed at any time. I didn't see that. I didn't see
15 where possibly she may have said, okay, I'm in the state
16 position, yeah, I'll move over to here. That's fine.
17 I'll be an at will. But, I'm sorry, I couldn't find any
18 documentation at all.
19 Q. When hiring new employees into at-will
20 positions, what process has to be performed before that
21 employee can be hired?
22 A. The agency process was that the superintendent
23 would give me something in writing that contained the name
24 of the employee, the hire date, and the salary; therefore,
25 I knew what to expect, and I would put together an
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 708
1 orientation packet and whatever paperwork was required.
2 The new employee would come in, entering orientation, I
3 would have them sign that acknowledgment form that I spoke
4 about earlier. And then the employee would be put on
5 payroll.
6 Q. Was there any requirement that the position be
7 advertised or interviewed or anything like that?
8 A. Not to my knowledge for an at will. Those are
9 appointed positions.
10 Q. So when hiring new employees into permanent
11 positions, what process had to be performed before an
12 employee could be hired?
13 A. The process is the vacancy has to be opened, and
14 then we would review the list of candidates and choose
15 those that we wanted to interview. The interview would
16 take place, the scoring procedure would take place that we
17 had in place, references would be called.
18 Once all the documentation was completed, a form
19 called a hiring validation form was completed for the
20 superintendent's signature. This form listed the
21 candidates that had been interviewed and what their scores
22 were. It listed the employee's salary that they had
23 chosen. It also showed the budget. And once that was
24 signed by the superintendent, then the supervisor or
25 division administrator or the HR was free to call the
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 709
1 employee -- or the candidate, I should say -- and offer
2 them the position, which the offer was followed up by a
3 letter.
4 Q. Did the Hill administration comply with these
5 processes for hiring permanent employees?
6 A. I'm not sure that that was always the case. I
7 found some employees' files that contained offer letters
8 that told them that they were going to be in at-will
9 positions; therefore, I'm not sure if the vacancy process
10 was followed, because when those employees were put on
11 payroll, the people -- the payroll people at A&I rejected
12 the input and said, "This is not an at-will position.
13 This is the state position, and you need to change the
14 status on it," which is what the payroll person did at
15 that time.
16 I don't know if the employees that had those
17 jobs were informed that, no, they were not at will, but
18 they were, in fact, state employees. If the vacancy
19 process was not followed, then I would have concern that
20 an employee had been appointed to a state position.
21 Q. Okay. Let's -- I want to make sure that I
22 understand what you're saying there. So for these at
23 will -- or these employees, were they hired into permanent
24 classified positions?
25 A. Yes,theywere.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 710
1 Q. And what you saw in that -- in their files was
2 at-will offer letters?
3 A. Yes,Idid.
4 Q. So did you see any indication that those
5 positions were ever open for interview or advertisement or
6 anything like that?
7 A. I don't recall seeing anything like that. I
8 looked for it, but I don't recall seeing it.
9 Q. Should that have been in those employees' files?
10 A. There should have been something in there
11 that -- other than that offer letter, telling them that
12 they were at will. Basically what that told me is that
13 they were just appointed to that position, instead of
14 going through the vacancy process for an actual state
15 position that they were in. So I was wondering if they
16 were appointed into a state position without going through
17 the actual state process. That was my question. That was
18 the information I was looking for, and I wasn't able to
19 find it.
20 Q. Let's turn to your time now when you returned to
21 the agency as a contract employee.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, that happened after the passage of what's
24 commonly known as Senate File 104?
25 A. Yes,itdid.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 711
1 Q. Can you describe what your role as a contract
2 employee was?
3 A. I was brought back to assist with the human
4 resource functions. There was a new employee serving as
5 the HR director, and I was asked to help train her on
6 internal policies and procedures. I reconciled all the
7 employees with the position numbers. I reconciled that
8 back to the pay/owe report, which is a report from A&I on
9 positions, numbers, and vacancies. I reconciled it back
10 to the organizational chart and then the records in the
11 finance department. I also did a tracking report that
12 showed all the employees their position numbers and their
13 budgets, beginning from January 2011 to present. I
14 rewrote the HR desk manual, and I created HR manuals for
15 all the division administrators. I reviewed all the
16 employee personnel files, all the terminated files, the
17 vacancy files. I reviewed the job descriptions and did a
18 salary analysis for the interim director.
19 Q. So that sounds like you did a fairly general or
20 comprehensive review of the human resources department; is
21 that correct?
22 A. That'scorrect.
23 Q. Okay. In that review, what did you find? Was
24 there anything that was -- any documentation that was
25 missing or anything that was done wrong?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 712
1 A. With reference to the personnel files, I found
2 that there was information missing, information was
3 incomplete or documentation was incomplete. There was
4 missing information in the closed vacancy files. Hiring
5 documentation was either missing, or I learned later that
6 it had been misfiled.
7 Q. So what needed to be fixed after your review?
8 A. Performance appraisals and letters of counseling
9 had been completely removed from the official personnel
10 files. They had been put into a completely different file
11 cabinet. The I-9 documents were missing. Some of them --
12 a lot of them on the new employees had incomplete
13 information or had not been signed. Hiring information
14 which required signatures was missing or, again, it had
15 been misfiled.
16 So the first thing that we did was to correct
17 the I-9 files, so if we were audited by federal government
18 we would not be in trouble for those.
19 The performance appraisals, letters of
20 counseling, letters of reprimand were returned to the
21 official employee files. The HR person started searching
22 for missing information to put back in the files. She was
23 going to continue that on after I left. I assisted the
24 human resource person in agency policies and procedures as
25 far as training her with that.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 713
1 Q. Why do you think those problems arose or
2 occurred?
3 A. I'm not sure. After I left, the human resource
4 position had been changed from a state position to an
5 at-will position, which meant that anyone could be
6 appointed to the position and did not have to go through
7 the qualification process by A&I.
8 I had left the desk manual that I had written
9 for whomever came in outlining everything the office did
10 and what the procedures were; however, I'm not sure that
11 was utilized because the HR person that was there when I
12 came back knew nothing about the manual.
13 Q. Okay. That changed from a classified position
14 to an at-will position?
15 A. Yes,itdid.
16 Q. Yeah. Did that concern you when you found out
17 about it?
18 A. Personally I felt that it should have remained a
19 state position, yes.
20 Q. Okay. Andwhyisthat?
21 A. Because positions that are state positions are
22 more enticing, if I can use that word, to qualified
23 employees. Again, they have to be qualified through A&I.
24 And I think that to have -- to go through the probationary
25 period and to become a permanent state employee is more
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 714
1 lucrative than saying to someone, okay, here's this job,
2 but you may or may not have it tomorrow.
3 MR. LENHART: Mr. Chairman, I'd now
4 recommend the committee go into executive session to talk
5 about personnel matters.
6 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Without objection, it will
7 be so ordered.
8 (Pages 715 through 746 are
9 confidential and sealed in a separate
10 transcript.)
11 *****
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Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 748
1 (Thefollowingoccurredin
2 opensession.)
3 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Okay. Ian,isthe
4 Internet up?
5 MR.SHAW: It'supnow,yes.
6 SPEAKERLUBNAU: We'rebackontherecord.
7 Committee, do you have any questions for -- I'm sorry, you
8 have more questions, Mr. Lenhart?
9 MR.LENHART: Yes.
10 FURTHEREXAMINATION
11 Q. (BY MR. LENHART) Miss Kelley, I now have a list
12 of basic witness questions that were submitted by
13 Superintendent Hill prior to your testimony.
14 Ms. Kelley, are you familiar with the penalties
15 for perjury and you are subject to those penalties should
16 you provide false testimony?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you speak with anyone prior to today about
19 your testimony before this committee, including
20 Mr. Jarosh, Mr. Salzburg, or representatives from their
21 firms, members of the legislature or other staff or
22 employees of the State, such as the governor's office or
23 Wyoming Department of Education regarding these
24 proceedings today or Senate File 104?
25 A. I did not. Only yourself.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 749
1 Q. Justmyself.
2 Whendidyouspeakwithme?
3 A. I don't recall the exact date of our first
4 meeting. We had two meetings. The second one was last
5 Friday. The first one, I believe, was towards the end of
6 December. I cannot recall the date.
7 Q. Could you describe the conversation in de --
8 conversations in detail and how long they took?
9 A. The first meeting with you took about an hour.
10 You interviewed me. The second meeting took 15 minutes,
11 and it was to answer my questions on how the procedure
12 would work when I testified, how the room was set up. You
13 gave me some -- some information logistically to help me
14 understand how it worked.
15 Q. Did the attorney or the representatives instruct
16 you that your testimony must be truthful, and, if based on
17 speculation, conjecture, or opinion, must be stated as
18 such?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Are you in possession of documented evidence
21 relating to your testimony?
22 A. I have given any documents I had to the
23 committee, or today I gave some to you.
24 Q. Follow-up. If yes, have you provided these
25 documents to the committee and superintendent?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 750
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do statements --
3 A. Well, the ones that I provided to the inquiry
4 committee, I don't know.
5 Q. Do statements attributed to you in the
6 MacPherson report accurately reflect your testimony to
7 that committee?
8 A. I haven't read the MacPherson report, so I
9 cannot answer that.
10 Q. The follow-up is: If no, please provide an
11 affidavit describing the changes necessary to make your
12 statements true and correct.
13 If you could take a look at that and let us know
14 if there are any corrections that need to be made.
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. LENHART: To you, Mr. Chairman.
17 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Committee? Representative
18 Petroff.
19 REPRESENTATIVE PETROFF: Thank you,
20 Mr. Speaker.
21 FURTHEREXAMINATIONBYTHECOMMITTEE
22 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE PETROFF) Ms. Kelley, is
23 it -- you were talking -- you had mentioned earlier that
24 the -- that there was a personnel packet that people had
25 to read over and sign off on before -- before they started
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 751
1 work or at the time they started work. And in that
2 personnel manual, it described the process that someone
3 would go through if they had a complaint, and I'm assuming
4 in there, since we don't have it in front of us, that the
5 HR office would be a logical place for employees to go to
6 lodge any kind of complaint, if they had a sexual
7 harassment complaint or a grievance against another
8 employee or anything about the workplace?
9 A. Mr. Speaker. I believe that would be correct.
10 Q. And, Mr. Speaker. In general, should an
11 employee feel like that is a safe environment and that
12 that -- and that has confidentiality applied?
13 A. Mr. Speaker. I would like to think that is
14 correct, yes.
15 Q. And, Mr. Speaker. When you were asked earlier,
16 Ms. Kelley, about the HR position being changed from a
17 classified position to an at-will position and you
18 referred to -- your answer was based on -- from the
19 perception of an HR person as being that you probably
20 wouldn't want to have your job at will because you may or
21 may not have your job tomorrow. But looking at it from
22 another perspective, at will you're working at the
23 pleasure of your boss. Classified you have a, you know,
24 an implied continuing contract and a procedure that has to
25 be followed for you to be terminated.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 752
1 So with your experience in HR, how would you
2 think that would affect the employees in terms of their
3 willingness to come to an HR person and express their
4 grievances and concerns in a way that they felt was
5 confidential and safe?
6 A. Representative Petroff, I'm not sure I
7 understand your question.
8 Q. I'm sorry. Mr. Speaker. What would be your
9 opinion of -- if the at will -- the HR position be
10 changed from classified to at will, from an employee's
11 perspective -- not the HR director's perspective, but the
12 other employees -- would you think that would make them
13 more likely or less likely to bring their concerns to the
14 HR director and expect confidentiality?
15 A. Mr. Speaker. So the question is does it matter
16 if you are at will or a state employee with regard to
17 bringing concerns to the HR position; is that correct?
18 REPRESENTATIVE THRONE: Mr. Chairman. Can
19 I try?
20 REPRESENTATIVE PETROFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
21 REPRESENTATIVETHRONE: Mr.--
22 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Sure.
23 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE THRONE) Ms. Kelley, do you
24 think employees are reluctant to bring complaints to an HR
25 person who is classified -- who is -- who is an at-will
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 753
1 position, in your opinion?
2 A. In my opinion, I don't know why they would be.
3 However, the at-will positions are at a high level, and I
4 don't recall ever having complaints from a high-level
5 employee.
6 Q. No, no, I'm -- follow-up. Maybe -- maybe we'll
7 give up, but --
8 A. I'm sorry.
9 Q. We'll save -- we'll save that.
10 I do have some other -- I think one other
11 question.
12 But with regard to the leadership team and
13 personnel policies, when I was a state employee -- it's
14 been a long time -- I seem to recall I had to sign
15 something saying I've been given a copy of them or I've
16 seen them. Did the folks on the leadership team have to
17 go through that exercise?
18 A. Mr. Speaker. The ones that I did orientation
19 for, yes, they should have.
20 Q. And who did you do orientation for?
21 A. I remember doing orientation for Cindy Hill. I
22 believe I did orientation for Kevin Lewis at the same
23 time. It's -- I apologize, this is hard for me to
24 remember to go back. I think John Masters, Sheryl Lain.
25 It should have been done on all of them.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 754
1 REPRESENTATIVETHRONE: And--keepgoing?
2 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Gountilyoudrop.
3 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE THRONE) Would they also have
4 received the governor's executive order on ethics as part
5 of the orientation?
6 A. Mr. Speaker. I'm trying to remember. At one
7 time we had included that as a part of the employee
8 handbook. I don't recall if it was still in there when I
9 left or not. When I did the handbook, it was included.
10 Q. Just one last question. Did anybody in the
11 leadership team, including Superintendent Hill, ever come
12 to you and try to learn about the personnel policies of
13 the State?
14 A. Mr. Speaker. No, not that I recall.
15 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Winters.
16 REPRESENTATIVEWINTERS: Mr.Speaker,I
17 have three or four questions.
18 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Gountilyoudrop.
19 REPRESENTATIVEWINTERS: Thankyou,
20 Mr. Speaker.
21 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE WINTERS) Were you aware of
22 the statements made during the campaign -- Mrs. Hill's
23 campaign for the superintendent of public instruction,
24 were you aware the statement she was making at the time
25 regarding at-will positions? Did you ever listen to any
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 755
1 of those statements?
2 A. During her campaign?
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. Mr.Speaker. No,Ididnot.
5 Q. Mr. Speaker. When did you become aware or did
6 she ever relay to you her opinion regarding at-will
7 positions?
8 A. When she first came on board, as I testified
9 earlier, she told me she wanted all the employee positions
10 within the Wyoming Department of Education to be at will.
11 Q. Mr. Speaker. Do you -- ma'am, do you agree with
12 that position?
13 A. Mr. Speaker. My comment was I didn't believe
14 that was possible because it's my understanding that only
15 high-level positions are deemed at will. The
16 administrative assistants or the consultants or
17 technicians or whatever it may be, it has to achieve a
18 certain level, and that would be for A&I to decide, not
19 me.
20 Q. So, ma'am, your opinion of at-will positions is
21 that they should be somewhat limited; is that a fair
22 statement?
23 A. Mr. Speaker. I believe that you're putting
24 words in my mouth.
25 Q. Could you please clarify, then, what your
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 756
1 opinion then -- what that would be?
2 A. Again, I would say that it is my understanding
3 that at-will positions are for high-grade-level employees.
4 I really don't have an opinion, honestly, who should be or
5 who shouldn't be.
6 Q. Were you somewhat adversarial on the
7 implementation, then, of really a philosophy, a political
8 philosophy, maybe just a plain philosophy, that the
9 superintendent came with?
10 A. Mr. Speaker. That was never my intent to be
11 adversarial in anything.
12 REPRESENTATIVEWINTERS: Thankyou,
13 Mr. Speaker.
14 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Connolly.
15 REPRESENTATIVECONNOLLY: Thankyou,
16 Mr. Speaker. I've got a couple questions along -- in the
17 same vein. If I can go until I drop with them?
18 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Gountilyoudrop.
19 REPRESENTATIVECONNOLLY: Thankyou.
20 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE CONNOLLY) Ms. Kelley, I'll
21 go back to how your office operates generally as -- as a
22 HR mechanism. It does seem to me you testified you have
23 very formal mechanisms as well as -- and formal duties in
24 terms of hiring and firing that all employees know about,
25 employees are also given an employee handbook and know to
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 757
1 turn to an HRO office for those kinds of issues, as well
2 as for informal mechanisms. And employees understand that
3 there is a formal complaint process for harassment, sexual
4 harassment or workplace concerns; is that true? And that
5 they should go through your HR office?
6 A. Mr. Speaker. I had, during my tenure there,
7 when I was at the Department of Education, yes, I did have
8 policies and procedures in place. I also had what we call
9 Team Center, which is an Internet-based page where you can
10 go out and pull down certain forms. I had complaint forms
11 out there for harassment that the employees could go out
12 and pull down.
13 Q. Okay. Thank you. Mr. Speaker. Kind of going
14 along -- that was kind of one avenue that employees had.
15 But it seems like employees also had an open-door policy
16 for informal complaints, and that they did come to you
17 with informal concerns that they took to your office
18 rather than just talking, you know, to their officemate or
19 the person across the hall, because, in fact, your office
20 and you did take those concerns carefully; is that -- is
21 that a fair characterization?
22 A. Mr. Speaker. I would say, yes, it is.
23 Q. Okay. And you then, when you heard these
24 concerns, you counseled people in some way, or you
25 listened to them, but then you then talked to your
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 758
1 supervisor about -- about those concerns. Is it fair --
2 is it a fair characterization that you did so and that
3 employees would understand that you did so because those
4 concerns detrimentally impacted the work environment and
5 probably should be rectified?
6 A. I would say that's a fair statement.
7 Q. And would it be a fair statement that employees
8 hoped that you would do that informally and your office
9 would do it informally, and that's why, in fact, you
10 talked to your supervisor about it?
11 A. Mr. Speaker. I would say yes.
12 Q. And that it was the hope of employees that they
13 didn't need to go through the formal complaint process
14 that would then go through an enormous amount of
15 investigation and be on the record if -- if your office
16 could take care of something informally?
17 A. Mr. Speaker. I would say that it would depend
18 on how egregious the complaint was.
19 Q. And would it be fair to say that when something
20 was filed formally, you, of course, filed -- you followed
21 the formal complaint procedures, but when something was
22 not filed formally, that if you and your supervisors
23 decided that it was something that needed to be looked
24 into, that you -- you then did so?
25 A. Mr. Speaker. I would say that's a fair
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 759
1 statement.
2 REPRESENTATIVE CONNOLLY: Okay. Thank you.
3 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Zwonitzer,
4 go until I drop.
5 REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER: Thanks.
6 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER) Were all the
7 members of the leadership team on hire required to read
8 this education employee handbook?
9 A. Mr. Speaker. That would have been told to them
10 during their orientation.
11 Q. And do you know if there is any section in the
12 handbook regarding rules around nepotism?
13 A. Mr. Speaker. Not that I recall in the employee
14 handbook.
15 Q. Okay. Do you remember, were there any
16 employee -- employee performance evaluations conducted in
17 the first five months with the new leadership team and WDE
18 employees, or those would've been -- usually six months
19 there's a performance employee evaluation review for as
20 far as I'm familiar with state government. Do you know if
21 any were conducted or that you sat in on the first five
22 months of the administration?
23 A. Mr. Speaker. I don't recall.
24 Q. Okay. One other question. A woman named
25 Megan Meisen took over the HR position later on during the
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 760
1 administration. Have you ever met her or did she work in
2 the Department when you were there?
3 A. Mr. Speaker. I believe that, yes, I did meet
4 her. I believe that she came in -- I remember seeing her,
5 but I can't remember when she came on board, if I was
6 there. I'm sorry, I just don't remember.
7 REPRESENTATIVEZWONITZER: Okay. Thank
8 you.
9 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Throne.
10 REPRESENTATIVETHRONE: Thankyou,
11 Mr. Speaker.
12 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE THRONE) Ms. Kelley, well, in
13 an earlier exchange with Representative Winters, he was
14 discussing your opinion on at-will employment in the State
15 of Wyoming, or asking you your opinion. When you were
16 discussing these issues with the superintendent or anybody
17 on the leadership team, were you merely trying to ensure
18 that they followed the regulations and the laws related to
19 personnel, rather than opposing any philosophy?
20 A. Mr. Speaker. When at-will positions were
21 discussed, from what I recall, as far as, again, back to
22 the adversarial, it doesn't affect me one way or the
23 other, so I was simply doing as I was asked by Miss Hill.
24 Q. And were you just explaining to her the process?
25 Attempting to explain the process?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 761
1 A. Mr. Speaker. When I would attempt to explain
2 something to Miss Hill, she basically waved me off and
3 didn't want to hear what I had to say. Again, when I
4 tried to explain things to her, she said, "I don't want to
5 hear that. I know everything."
6 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Otherquestions,
7 Committee?
8 Q. (BY SPEAKER LUBNAU) Ms. Kelley, Superintendent
9 Hill has sent me a list of questions that she would like
10 me to ask you.
11 Did you offer a job to a member of Mrs. Hill's
12 leadership team at a rate above that which she -- and
13 please, to avoid going back into executive session, let's
14 not use names, okay?
15 Did you offer a job to a member of Mrs. Hill's
16 leadership team at a rate above that which you agreed to
17 with Mrs. Hill?
18 A. Mr. Speaker, I did make an error on one
19 employee's salary. I discovered that error within a few
20 hours. The first thing I did was to tell Miss Hill about
21 it. The second thing I did was call the employee that was
22 coming on board and let them know. This all took place
23 prior to the employee being hired on.
24 Q. Didn't Mrs. Hill have to correct the error that
25 you made?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 762
1 A. Mr. Speaker, I don't know how she would have
2 corrected it. I called the employee to let them know that
3 there was an error in their salary, and I had corrected
4 it.
5 Q. Did Mrs. Hill instruct you that all of her
6 leadership team would be hired as at-will status rather
7 than as classified or permanent employees?
8 A. Mr. Speaker, I don't recall her saying that.
9 I'm sorry, I don't remember.
10 Q. This one I think has been asked about four
11 different ways, so I'll ask it the fifth. Did you resist
12 Mrs. Hill's efforts to hire staff in an at-will rather
13 than permanent status?
14 A. Mr. Speaker, to my knowledge, no, I did not.
15 Q. What was your legal or regulatory basis for
16 refusing to hire individuals at will?
17 A. Mr. Speaker, I'm sorry. Would you repeat the
18 question?
19 Q. What was your legal or regulatory basis for
20 refusing to hire individuals at will?
21 A. I'm sorry, Mr. Speaker, I don't recall refusing
22 to hire anyone. That would not be my place.
23 Q. Okay. How about refusing to classify
24 individuals at will?
25 A. Mr. Speaker, I never refused a request from
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 763
1 Cindy Hill.
2 Q. Can you provide documentation to the
3 superintendent, or if you don't -- all right.
4 Did you take a large block of time off shortly
5 after Mrs. Hill took office?
6 A. Mr. Speaker, not to my knowledge. I had surgery
7 in November, December so I would be there on January 3rd
8 when she came on board.
9 Q. You stated that an employee was moved from a
10 permanent to at will with no documentation. Did you ask
11 the employee if that was true?
12 A. No. Mr. Speaker, I did not talk to the
13 employee. I did not have time.
14 Q. You stated that people were always afraid that
15 they would be fired; is that correct?
16 A. Some,yes.
17 Q. Approximately how many people came to you with
18 complaints?
19 A. I'm sorry, I don't remember. I don't have a
20 number I can give you.
21 Q. When individuals would come to you and express
22 concerns about Superintendent Hill or her senior staff,
23 what did you do to address those concerns?
24 A. Mr. Speaker, I listened to what the employee had
25 to say, and I would talk with them. Depending on what
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 764
1 they were telling me, I would just visit with them. I was
2 used as a sounding board for employees, someplace where
3 they could go to vent their frustrations.
4 Q. Did you follow state HR policies to investigate
5 and reach resolution regarding these complaints?
6 A. Mr. Speaker, I don't ever -- I never received,
7 to my knowledge, anything that would require me to do
8 that.
9 Q. Did you attempt to resolve these concerns by
10 mediation as encouraged by the State's HR policies?
11 A. Mr. Speaker, the complaints I would turn over to
12 Roger Clark.
13 Q. Why did you not bring these complaints to the
14 attention of Superintendent Hill, her staff or HRD?
15 A. Mr. Speaker, the procedure was for me to take
16 that to the supervisor, who in turn would take it to
17 Ms. Hill.
18 Q. Do you believe that you -- that had you followed
19 the normal HR processes and policies, the concerns of the
20 employees would have been effectively addressed?
21 A. Mr. Speaker, I believe we did follow policies
22 and procedures.
23 Q. Would it be accurate to say that your failure to
24 follow HR procedures and processes resulted in an
25 environment of distrust and hostility?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 765
1 A. Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of where I would
2 have failed within my duties. I would need more specific
3 information to address that.
4 Q. How many permanent employees were fired by
5 Superintendent Hill?
6 A. Permanent employees, Mr. Speaker, I don't recall
7 of any.
8 Q. Would it surprise you to know that only one
9 permanent employee was ever fired, and that person was
10 fired because the person was unable to come to work?
11 A. I'm sorry, Mr. Speaker, I don't recall the
12 circumstances.
13 Q. All vacant positions were converted to at will
14 per Superintendent Hill, correct?
15 A. Mr. Speaker, that is not correct. They were not
16 converted. All positions were not converted. I received
17 a list from A&I of the positions that were converted. I
18 do not remember the number.
19 Q. Please explain your conversations with
20 Mary Kay Hill about how Superintendent Hill would be
21 treated once she was sworn in.
22 A. I'm sorry, I had no conversation with
23 Mary Kay Hill with regard to Cindy Hill.
24 Q. Please explain your conversations with
25 Joe Simpson about how Superintendent Hill would be
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 766
1 treated once she was sworn in.
2 A. I'm sorry, I don't recall any -- a conversation
3 with Joe Simpson regarding Cindy Hill.
4 Q. Do you feel the employees displayed hostility
5 towards Superintendent Hill after she defeated their boss?
6 A. Mr. Speaker, I did not see any behavior of that
7 type.
8 Q. Were you aware that Mary Kay Hill stated that
9 there were many grenades under Cindy's chair that she
10 didn't even know about?
11 A. Mr. Speaker, I believe I did hear that.
12 Q. What did you do to address or otherwise respond
13 to that threatening statement?
14 A. Mr. Speaker, I didn't do anything. It was just
15 a rumor that I heard on the street.
16 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Those are all the
17 questions we have, Ms. Kelley. Thank you very much.
18 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
19 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Thank you for spending the
20 evening with us.
21 Committee, it's 20 after 7:00. What's your
22 pleasure?
23 REPRESENTATIVE PATTON: Mr. Chairman.
24 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Patton.
25 REPRESENTATIVE PATTON: Sounds to me like
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 767
1 this next witness, if that's brief, kind of lends itself to
2 answering some of the questions that we were laboring with
3 with the prior ones. I would suggest we take a look at
4 that time element.
5 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Is Mr. Clark available?
6 Sorry, Roger, I didn't see you back there.
7 Counsel, how long do you think Mr. Clark will
8 take?
9 MR. SALZBURG: For my examination, my best
10 guess, Mr. Speaker, is probably 45 minutes.
11 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Kathy, how are you? Okay?
12 All right.
13 Okay. Mr. Clark, come on forward. Mr. Clark,
14 did you receive an advisement with the subpoena that you
15 received?
16 THE WITNESS: Mr. Chairman, yes.
17 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Did you read it?
18 THE WITNESS: Mr. Chairman, yes.
19 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Did you understand it?
20 THE WITNESS: Yep.
21 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Do you have any questions?
22 THE WITNESS: No.
23 (Witness sworn.)
24
25
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 768
1 ROGERWILLIAMSCLARK,
2 called as a witness on behalf of the Select Investigative
3 Committee, being first duly sworn, testified as follows:
4 EXAMINATION
5 Q. (BY MR. SALZBURG) Would you state your name,
6 please.
7 A. Roger Williams Clark.
8 Q. Mr. Clark, I believe that you've been present
9 during most of the hearing, so I'm going to assume that
10 you've heard all of us on this side of the bench give the
11 guidelines for how to testify here.
12 A. That is correct.
13 Q. And do you recall them all?
14 A. I believe so.
15 Q. All right. Are you currently employed?
16 A. I am currently retired.
17 Q. What was your last employment?
18 A. My last employment, which I received a W-2, if
19 you will, was from Wyoming Department of Education.
20 Q. Can you summarize for us your educational
21 background?
22 A. Sure. I received in 1972 an associate's degree
23 from Eastern Wyoming College. In 1974, a Bachelor's of
24 Arts degree with honors Phi Beta Kappa University of
25 Wyoming. 1995, Master's of Science degree in educational
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 769
1 leadership from Chadron State College.
2 Q. Can you summarize briefly your employment
3 history?
4 A. Sure. After graduation in 1974, was employed as
5 a high school language arts teacher in Goshen County
6 Unified School District Number 1 in Torrington. That
7 would have been from 1974 to 1995.
8 From 1995 to 2001, I was employed as an
9 administrator, as a high school administrator, and later
10 as a central office administrator in Platte County Unified
11 School District Number 1 in Wheatland, Wyoming.
12 2001 through 2002, joined the Wyoming Department
13 of Education to head up the special program funded by the
14 Wyoming legislature to infuse technology across the state
15 and provide professional development to 600 teachers.
16 When that program ended in 2002, I moved to
17 Afton, Star Valley, Lincoln County School District Number
18 2, and worked in their central office as director of
19 instruction from 2002 to 2004.
20 2004, moved to Riverton and joined the Wyoming
21 Department of Education to work with their federal
22 programs and special programs unit. Did that and was
23 assigned to work under at that time State Deputy
24 Superintendent Tammy Cox. I did that from 2004-2005.
25 2005-2006, became superintendent Fremont County
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 770
1 School District Number 38 in Arapahoe, Wyoming. 2007
2 through 2009, again, superintendent Arapahoe, Wyoming,
3 Fremont County School District Number 38. 2009 through
4 2010, interim superintendent, Big Horn County School
5 District Number 3, Greybull, Wyoming.
6 And then in January of 2011, became a member of
7 Superintendent Hill's leadership team until my departure
8 in June of 2011.
9 Q. So you were employed by the Hill administration
10 on the leadership team for only six months?
11 A. That is correct.
12 Q. How did you come to work for Superintendent
13 Hill?
14 A. Just around the general election time,
15 Superintendent Hill and I had several conversations. At
16 one point then she asked if I would join her leadership
17 team, and I asked at this point to be released from my
18 contract with Big Horn County School District Number 3 in
19 Greybull. They did so, and during -- midway through my
20 contract and I took it.
21 Q. What was the title during your tenure with the
22 Department under the administration of Superintendent
23 Hill?
24 A. Education -- educational leader.
25 Q. And were there others in the Department that
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 771
1 held that title as well?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Whowerethose?
4 A. That would have been Sheryl Lain.
5 Q. So you and Sheryl were the only instructional
6 leaders?
7 A. That's my understanding, yes.
8 Q. Okay. Could you describe the duties of an
9 instructional leader?
10 A. In general or my duties as an instructional
11 leader?
12 Q. Yeah, let's talk about yours.
13 A. Okay. Quite varied. I had primary
14 responsibility, was assigned by Superintendent Hill to be
15 the liaison to the Wyoming State Board of Education. I
16 would attend meetings and report back to Superintendent
17 Hill as to what I learned during those meetings.
18 Sometimes I would carry a proxy vote to those meetings for
19 Superintendent Hill.
20 I was assigned to attend the legislative session
21 in 2011 and to take part in the committee hearings and to
22 track any legislation that was pertinent to the Department
23 of Education at that point, report back to Superintendent
24 Hill, the leadership team, and sometimes provide, as
25 necessary, testimony to committees at that time. Those
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 772
1 were two primary responsibilities.
2 Other responsibilities included working with
3 district superintendents throughout Wyoming's school
4 districts and answering their questions, particularly
5 about initiatives that perhaps we were initiating within
6 the Department of Education or that had legislative
7 overtones with legislation that was being passed during
8 that particular session.
9 I was also very much involved in working with
10 various divisions within the Wyoming Department of
11 Education, be it a finance division, to become aware of
12 what kinds of projects that they were working on, report
13 back to the leadership team in issues or updates as to
14 what was going on, be it a special programs unit, be it
15 the federal programs unit, had that type of responsibility
16 to -- to be aware of many of those types of things.
17 Attended at least a couple of national meetings
18 for the superintendent or with the superintendent.
19 Attended the CCSSO conference in Washington, D.C. CCSSO
20 is Council of Chief State School Officers. It's where the
21 education leaders of the states, either elected or
22 appointed, meet to discuss issues. Also attended a
23 national conference for superintendents on Common Core
24 state standards in Louisiana, in New Orleans. So very
25 many hats to wear and quite a broad job description.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 773
1 Q. Mr. Clark, we've heard the phrases "leadership
2 team" and "transition team" much of this hearing. Are
3 those -- let me ask it this way: Were the members of the
4 transition team also the leadership team after
5 Superintendent Hill took office?
6 A. Mr. Salzburg, in part that may be true.
7 Certainly, as I recall, members of the transition team
8 besides myself would have been Superintendent Hill, there
9 would have been Kevin Lewis, there would have been
10 Michelle Hoffman, Gail Eisenhauer, Greg Hansen. And as
11 that team transitioned, certainly Michelle Hoffman did not
12 transition, was not employed by the Department. So in
13 answer to your question, no. Nor did Greg Hansen become a
14 member of that team employed by the Department.
15 Q. Okay. Who were the other members of the
16 leadership team?
17 A. The leadership team as I recall would have been
18 Superintendent Hill, would have been me, would have been
19 Sheryl Lain, there would have been Kevin Lewis. When he
20 was hired, Jerry Zellars became a member of that team, as
21 I recall. And also when he came on board, Mr. Masters
22 would have been a member of that team also, as I recall.
23 Q. Can you describe for us where the leadership
24 team fit into the organizational chart of the Department.
25 A. My understanding at the time was that as -- I
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 774
1 recall, we were just below the superintendent and reported
2 directly to the superintendent.
3 Q. Where did Gail Eisenhauer fit relative to you
4 and Sheryl Lain as instructional leaders?
5 A. As I recall, Gail was not given a title of
6 instructional leader. She certainly had been a part of
7 the transition team. She came on and sat in the many
8 meetings of the -- of the leadership team at its onset.
9 Later she was assigned to work out of the Laramie office,
10 as I recall. And her attendance at the leadership
11 meetings was not as frequent after that.
12 Q. Here's what I'm trying to get to. You told us
13 that you -- you and Sheryl Lain were the two instructional
14 leaders. And I have the impression, and you correct me if
15 I'm wrong, that the duties of the instructional leaders
16 are those that would have normally or previously been
17 performed by someone who would have been called a deputy
18 superintendent.
19 A. I believe your statement is rather accurate,
20 yes.
21 Q. Okay. And so now I'm trying to figure out where
22 on the organizational chart the -- the other members of
23 the leadership team would fall. Were they co-equals,
24 subordinates, or superiors to the two instructional
25 leaders?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 775
1 A. Mr. Salzburg, the organizational chart, as I
2 recall, the organizational flow, as I recall, I think the
3 word I would use would be rather mercurial. It was ever
4 changing. Would I say in -- in reference to
5 subordination, I believe my understanding would have been
6 that the two instructional leaders would have had a more
7 direct relationship to the superintendent than others on
8 the leadership team, but as the team operated, their
9 counsel was accepted, I believe, from my experience,
10 equally.
11 Q. When was your last day at the Department?
12 A. If my memory serves me correctly, it would have
13 been June 23rd of 2011.
14 Q. Can you explain to the committee the
15 circumstances around your departure?
16 A. Probably my departure was precipitated by
17 several events. But the most salient event would have
18 occurred the day before the 23rd, during a meeting with
19 division heads of the Wyoming Department of Education. I
20 was working out of the Riverton office that week, joined a
21 meeting that had been called via the WEN video system, and
22 I became rather distressed by the topics that were being
23 discussed during that meeting, felt that I no longer was a
24 fit to the Department of Education nor a value to the
25 Department of Education and chose to drive to Cheyenne the
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 776
1 next day and resign.
2 Q. You'reveryPC.
3 Tell us what topics were discussed that offended
4 you.
5 A. One of the topics -- well, the topic that caught
6 my attention and precipitated my action was raised by one
7 of the members of that particular committee that day, one
8 of the members of the leadership team, and it involved my
9 body language that had been observed during a meeting of
10 the Select Committee on Education Accountability that had
11 been held in Casper on the 14th and 15th of June, 2011.
12 And the gist that I got from the discussion was that my
13 body language was not supportive of the superintendent
14 during her testimony.
15 Q. Who told you that your body language was not
16 supportive of the superintendent during that meeting?
17 A. That would have been a member of the leadership
18 team.
19 Q. And does that member have a name?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Could you tell us who that was?
22 A. Yes. His name is Kevin Lewis.
23 Q. Thankyou.
24 Did Kevin Lewis tell you what it was that he saw
25 in your body language that led him to the conclusion that
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 777
1 you were not a supporter of the superintendent at the
2 legislative committee meeting?
3 A. I can only speak in general terms to that,
4 Mr. Salzburg. It's been quite a while since then, but as
5 I recall, the issue concerned perhaps the position of my
6 shoulders or the position of my head during this
7 particular meeting.
8 Q. Where did the meeting occur?
9 A. The meeting was held in Casper, as I recall, it
10 was held at the outreach building in Casper.
11 Q. Who else was there at the meeting?
12 A. Which meeting was that?
13 Q. The -- the committee meeting that you attended
14 in Casper, I'm sorry.
15 A. Oh, gosh. Certainly the select committee on
16 education accountability was there.
17 Q. I meant from the Department of Education.
18 A. As I recall, Mr. Salzburg, the request had gone
19 out that department heads appear during this meeting, so
20 it would have been that the department heads of the
21 Wyoming Department of Education were there.
22 Q. And was Mr. Lewis there?
23 A. I believe so, yes, sir.
24 Q. And was it a room like this where you were
25 sitting at a table in front of a committee that was
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 778
1 seated?
2 A. Thatiscorrect,sir.
3 Q. Okay. So where was Mr. Lewis relative to you
4 and the committee when you displayed this body language
5 suggesting nonsupport?
6 A. As I recall, sir, facing the select committee.
7 He was not behind them, to the best of my recollection, so
8 he must have been either behind me or outside of my
9 peripheral vision.
10 Q. Do you know whether he filmed or videotaped the
11 committee hearing?
12 A. As I recall, I believe it was stated that he had
13 filmed that.
14 Q. We heard testimony from Gail Eisenhauer
15 yesterday, and I think she mentioned this meeting. Were
16 you present for that testimony?
17 A. Yes,Iwas.
18 Q. Okay. So we're all -- we're all big boys here.
19 A. Sure.
20 Q. When you were told that your body language
21 suggested that you were -- you didn't support
22 Superintendent Hill, did you make a comment to Mr. Lewis
23 about that claim?
24 A. Yes, I did make a comment about that claim.
25 Q. Whatdidyoutellhim?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 779
1 A. I used an epithet. The epithet was this is
2 horse shit.
3 Q. Now, you -- we began this discussion with --
4 with your explanation that this was -- this episode of the
5 WEN-conducted meeting was sort of a -- this is my
6 phrase -- the straw that broke the camel's back; is that
7 accurate?
8 A. It was the action that precipitated my actions
9 the next day to drive to Cheyenne and resign, yes.
10 Q. But it wasn't the sole reason for your
11 resignation?
12 A. No.
13 Q. All right. So I assume from the fact that you
14 served on the transition team and then subsequently became
15 a member of the leadership team, that you were a supporter
16 of Superintendent Hill during the campaign and in the
17 early months of the administration; is that accurate?
18 A. I think it would be accurate to say I was a
19 supporter of Superintendent Hill during the general
20 election and during the early months, yes.
21 Q. And how would you describe your politics?
22 A. I'm a registered Wyoming Republican. I would
23 say I would fall on the moderate side of being Republican.
24 Q. So can you describe for us the other problems
25 that preceded the body language incident that you just
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 780
1 described that contributed to your decision to resign?
2 A. Mr. Salzburg, what contributed to that decision
3 was certainly a growing lack of confidence in the
4 superintendent's ability, from my point of view, being
5 able to lead the Department of Education. I was concerned
6 over incidences that had -- in particular, I was at one
7 point concerned with the -- with the waning, I guess,
8 culture within the Department of Education. Folks were
9 at -- not comfortable. It was very obvious to me that --
10 that members of the Department of Education were leaving,
11 that there was just not a good cultural feeling of a good
12 place to work at this point.
13 Q. What was your observation of whether or not
14 Superintendent Hill had the support of the rank and file,
15 for lack of a better term, within the Department?
16 A. Prior to my resignation, there had been a
17 meeting of all staff in the basement of the Hathaway
18 Building. And as I recall, it was obvious to me that the
19 rank and file, as you will, were not necessarily
20 supporting the initiatives or the atmosphere. I again
21 felt after that meeting that things were not going well.
22 I also shortly after that meeting asked to meet
23 with the superintendent and the leadership team. We did
24 meet at the Little America Resort, and I attempted to
25 share with Superintendent Hill my feelings that things
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 781
1 were not going well with the rank and file, from my
2 perception, and that I was considering resigning at that
3 time.
4 Q. You mentioned that there were a number of people
5 who were leaving the Department. Earlier I inquired about
6 a report that is in the exhibit right in front of you,
7 which said something like that -- I'm talking about the
8 report from the legislative liaison, the LSO liaison on
9 education. There's a Footnote 1 in that report that says
10 in -- in first two years of Superintendent Hill's
11 administration -- or actually, less than that -- some 48
12 percent of the positions were vacant -- were vacated. Did
13 you -- did you witness in the first few months of -- of
14 the administration a rate of departure, anything like
15 that?
16 A. Mr. Salzburg, I don't know that I witnessed that
17 rate of departure at that time 48 percent, but --
18 Q. I mean -- no, that was over a longer period of
19 time?
20 A. Yes. ButIdidsee--
21 Q. Was the rate of leaving something like that?
22 A. It seemed inordinate to me.
23 Q. Okay. How would you describe employee morale at
24 the time that -- well, let's just pick the month of June
25 of 2011.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 782
1 A. My perception was the morale of the employees
2 was not good.
3 Q. How did the closure -- I'm not sure we talked
4 about this before. My understanding is that one of the
5 first things that Superintendent Hill decided to do upon
6 coming into office was closing the Laramie office, which
7 housed the assessment division and one other that I can't
8 think of. Do you remember if there was more than the
9 assessment division at Laramie?
10 A. The assessment division is what comes to mind.
11 Q. So you're familiar, generally, with the closure
12 of the Laramie office soon after Superintendent Hill took
13 office?
14 A. Yes,Iam.
15 Q. How did that office closure impact the ability
16 of the Department to perform its statutory duty to weigh
17 the assessment?
18 A. Up to the time I left, I don't believe that it
19 had a negative impact upon the work that was being done by
20 the assessment division. I was still having professional
21 people were still working within the division, and I did
22 not see that it had a negative impact at that time.
23 MR.SALZBURG: Okay. Mr.Speaker,I'm
24 going to request that we go into executive session to
25 discuss an investigation of a personnel matter.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 783
1 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Without objection, it is
2 so ordered.
3 MR. SALZBURG: May Karen Kelley be
4 released --
5 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Excuse me?
6 MR. SALZBURG: May Karen Kelley be released
7 from her subpoena?
8 SPEAKER LUBNAU: You're my legal adviser.
9 You tell me.
10 MR. SALZBURG: I didn't issue the subpoena.
11 REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER: I would so move,
12 Mr. Chairman.
13 MR. SALZBURG: Okay.
14 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Okay.
15 (Pages 784 through 801 are
16 confidential and sealed in a separate
17 transcript.)
18 *****
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 803
1 (Thefollowingoccurredin
2 opensession.)
3 REPRESENTATIVEBROWN: Mr.Salzburg,are
4 you ready to proceed with the general questions?
5 MR.SALZBURG: Yes,sir,Iam.
6 REPRESENTATIVEBROWN: Pleasedoso.
7 FURTHEREXAMINATION
8 Q. (BY MR. SALZBURG) Mr. Clark, these -- you've
9 heard these before. These are questions that
10 Superintendent Hill has asked to be asked of the
11 witnesses, and there's some that are specific to you.
12 First, are you familiar with the penalties of
13 perjury and that you are subject to those penalties should
14 you provide false testimony?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you speak with anyone prior to today about
17 your testimony before this committee, including
18 Mr. Jarosh, Mr. Salzburg, or representatives from their
19 firms, members of the legislature or other staff or
20 employees of the State, such as the governor's office or
21 Wyoming Department of Education regarding these
22 proceedings today or Senate File 104?
23 A. Seems that there's several questions there, so I
24 will begin with saying that, yes, I have had conversation
25 with you, Mr. Salzburg.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 804
1 Q. Okay. Anybody else that was in that list that
2 you can recall?
3 A. In relationship to the proceedings today,
4 certainly you. Senate File 104 would be a different
5 question, and I would have a different response.
6 Q. Okay. Well, let's go through your conversations
7 with me first.
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. Do you recall when you spoke to me? And if --
10 and describe the conversation in detail and how long it
11 took.
12 A. Sure. First time that I spoke with you was via
13 telephone, which you invited me to your office. That
14 would have been just prior to the Thanksgiving holiday.
15 The purpose of our conversation has basically been
16 presented in our -- my testimony today, the questions that
17 you asked me. And I would imagine that we met, if I
18 recall correctly, about an hour and 40 minutes, 45 minutes
19 during that meeting.
20 The second time would have had a conversation
21 with you would have been shortly before New Year's, and we
22 met for about an hour and a half again to review the
23 questions one more time.
24 Q. Did the attorneys or their representatives
25 instruct you that your testimony must be truthful and, if
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 805
1 based on speculation or conjecture or opinion, must be
2 stated as such?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Let me go back because you gave an answer that
5 suggests that you've had conversations related to the
6 Senate File 104 with somebody else.
7 A. Yes. Would you read that part of the question
8 again.
9 Q. Sure. Did you speak with anyone prior to today
10 about your testimony before this committee, including
11 Mr. Jarosh, Mr. Salzburg, or representatives from their
12 firms, members of the legislature, or other staff or
13 employees of the State, such as the governor's office or
14 Wyoming Department of Education regarding these
15 proceedings today or Senate File 104?
16 A. Yes, I have spoken with members of the
17 legislature about Senate File 104.
18 Q. When did you speak with the members of the
19 legislature about Senate File 104?
20 A. As I recall, that would have been January of
21 this last year.
22 Q. And can you describe your conversations with
23 members of the legislature with respect to Senate File
24 104?
25 A. Yes. Mr. Salzburg, I had a brief meeting with,
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 806
1 I believe, Speaker Lubnau, Representative Stubson,
2 Representative Teeters during the legislative session last
3 year.
4 Q. Okay. Can you describe the conversation that
5 you had?
6 A. In general the conversation centered around
7 whether or not -- well, about my coming forward at --
8 which was on my own volition, to testify in favor of
9 Senate File 104.
10 Q. Are you in possession of documented evidence
11 relating to your testimony?
12 A. No.
13 Q. The follow-up is: If no, what was your standard
14 for deciding what to provide? Which, frankly, I don't
15 understand.
16 Anybodywanttohelpme? No? Okay.
17 Do statements -- well, do statements attributed
18 to you in the MacPherson report accurately reflect your
19 testimony to that committee?
20 A. Mr. Salzburg, I'm aware that there is a
21 MacPherson report, but I have no working knowledge of my
22 testimony within that document.
23 Q. So it doesn't make any sense to ask you if you
24 affirm under oath all the statements attributed to you in
25 the MacPherson report, since you don't know what it said.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 807
1 A. I have no working knowledge of what's in the
2 report.
3 Q. Okay. Did you investigate personnel complaints
4 while you were instructional leader at the Wyoming
5 Department of Education?
6 A. My hesitation centers on the word "investigate."
7 I suppose my answer is yes.
8 Q. Didn't Superintendent Hill fully adopt your
9 recommendations regarding such investigations?
10 A. Would you repeat that to me, please.
11 Q. Didn't Superintendent Hill fully adopt your
12 recommendations regarding such investigations?
13 A. I find that rather difficult to answer. I don't
14 know what her thinking would have been based upon the
15 information that I would have reported back to her.
16 Q. Were you aware of several HR errors made by
17 Karen Kelley hiring another employee into a classified
18 permanent status when that person was to have been at
19 will?
20 A. I have a vague remembrance that there was an
21 issue, but I don't remember the specifics of that issue.
22 Q. Hiring another person at a wage in excess of
23 that authorized by Superintendent Hill with the result
24 that Superintendent Hill had to confer with that person
25 about the error and take the actions to correct it?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 808
1 A. Once again, Mr. Salzburg, I don't have a firm
2 remembrance of that.
3 Q. Karen Kelley's overall resistance to hiring
4 individuals at will?
5 A. I don't recall that I witnessed her resistance.
6 MR.SALZBURG: That'sall,Mr.Chairman.
7 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Committee, any questions?
8 Representative Zwonitzer.
9 FURTHER EXAMINATION BY THE COMMITTEE
10 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER) I guess as an
11 instructional leader and somewhat a/k/a deputy-type
12 position, do you believe that -- and knowing from
13 Karen Kelley's testimony that she believed you were her
14 supervisor, so, therefore, you were over human resources,
15 was there ever any conversation on solidifying an org
16 chart or classifying position descriptions more thoroughly
17 than you've -- than what you've testified there was in the
18 Department?
19 A. Sure. Mr. Chairman. Mr. -- Representative
20 Zwonitzer, there were plenty of discussions about the
21 organizational chart, trying to solidify that chart.
22 Q. Then, Mr. Chairman. Do you feel that the org
23 chart was solidified? Because in your testimony you
24 seemed to relay that it was mercurial and ever changing.
25 Was that on purpose, then, or an accident?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 809
1 A. Mr. Chairman. Representative Zwonitzer, I don't
2 believe it was -- yes, it was ever changing. Whether it
3 was purposeful, I don't believe so. It was just a sign of
4 the lack of organization and leadership, I believe, on the
5 part of the superintendent that kept us from finalizing
6 those types of -- of -- I guess the organizational chart.
7 Q. So would you say you offered suggestions on how
8 to make more solidified positions and descriptions, and
9 your efforts were thwarted by the superintendent?
10 A. Mr. Chairman. Mr. Zwonitzer, I don't believe
11 that is an accurate reflection at all.
12 REPRESENTATIVEZWONITZER: Okay.
13 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Winters.
14 REPRESENTATIVEWINTERS: Mr.Chairman. I
15 have two or three questions here.
16 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Askthem.
17 REPRESENTATIVEWINTERS: Thankyou.
18 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE WINTERS) When it comes to
19 the videotaping and studying the body language of
20 individuals, what kind of credentials -- are you aware of
21 any credentials that Mr. Lewis would have had to do that?
22 A. Mr. Chairman. Mr. Winters -- Representative
23 Winters, no, I'm not aware that Mr. Lewis would have had
24 any kind of training in kinesis or kinesiology.
25 Q. Secondly, are you aware if this was a common
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 810
1 practice?
2 A. Mr. Chairman. Representative Winters, common is
3 only as much as it had been reported that it had occurred
4 before.
5 Q. So, Mr. Chairman. As far as you know, it sounds
6 like there were a couple of times, the one in Riverton and
7 the one in Sheridan, would that be a roughly accurate
8 assessment?
9 A. Mr. Chairman. Just to change, the event that
10 was reported was -- did not occur in Riverton. I was in
11 Riverton during a meeting in which this was discussed, but
12 the event actually occurred in Casper. So if you'd re --
13 mind rephrasing that question, I would --
14 Q. Oh, certainly. So according to the best of your
15 knowledge, it would have been an occasion in Casper and an
16 occasion in Sheridan?
17 A. Mr. Chairman. That would be correct.
18 Q. Mr. Chairman. Are you aware of the purpose --
19 do you know of any purpose behind why the videotaping
20 would have occurred?
21 A. Mr. Chairman. Only what I felt, and I felt it
22 was an act of intimidation.
23 REPRESENTATIVEWINTERS: Thankyou,
24 Mr. Chairman.
25 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Throne.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 811
1 REPRESENTATIVETHRONE: Thankyou,
2 Mr. Chairman. And I'll be brief.
3 Thankyou,Mr.Clark.
4 I've been brief. I'm not Representative Madden.
5 REPRESENTATIVEZWONITZER: Ithoughtyou
6 were going to say me.
7 REPRESENTATIVETHRONE: Sorry,just
8 checking to see if everybody's still awake.
9 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE THRONE) In regard to this
10 discussion of videotaping, the superintendent was -- was
11 in the meetings where this body -- where body language was
12 discussed, was she not? These were leadership meetings?
13 A. In reference, Mr. Chairman, to the meeting on
14 the 22nd of June that dealt with my issue, Superintendent
15 Hill was only at the meeting briefly that morning and she
16 left. So she was not there during that discussion, to the
17 best of my knowledge.
18 Q. So do you have any personal knowledge whether
19 she asked a member of the leadership team to analyze
20 people's body language?
21 A. Mr. Chairman. I have no knowledge of that.
22 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Connolly.
23 REPRESENTATIVECONNOLLY: Thanks,
24 Mr. Speaker.
25 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE CONNOLLY) Mr. Clark, earlier
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 812
1 to a question that Mr. Salzburg asked, you meant -- you
2 gave your assessment that during a particular month, I
3 think it was June, that you found that the morale of WDE
4 employees was low. And on another occasion you responded
5 to a question that you did receive the complaints from
6 Ms. Kelley that employees had regarding -- regarding
7 their -- their problems with the environment.
8 And so I'm curious, you know, given your own
9 sense of the morale and given that at least Ms. Kelley
10 believed you were her supervisor and she gave you those
11 complaints, did you ever have discussions with the
12 superintendent regarding the morale issues as you both
13 perceived them and you were told them with the
14 superintendent?
15 A. Mr. Chairman. Representative Connolly, yes.
16 Q. Could you tell us about those?
17 A. I'm making reference to, Mr. Chairman, to a
18 meeting I had with the leadership team the morning after a
19 meeting of department employees in the basement, I
20 believe, of the Hathaway Building. Superintendent Hill
21 was at Little America Resort that morning and not
22 attending the leadership team meeting. One of the
23 discussions that arose during that meeting was my
24 dissatisfaction with the morale, and I announced to my
25 team members that I was seriously considering resigning
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 813
1 later that day.
2 Theyencouragedme--bytheway,
3 superintendent -- I'm sorry, Instructional Leader Lain, to
4 the best of my recollection, said that she had had some
5 reservations about her employment also. And they asked
6 that I reconsider and visit with the superintendent and
7 that the team would get together with the superintendent
8 that day.
9 Contacted the superintendent. We later met her
10 at Little America and visited about those situations. And
11 in reference to whether or not I had broken down at any
12 other time, as we had referenced earlier in our testimony,
13 during that meeting, I certainly did break down. And that
14 was a result of my feeling that not only was
15 Superintendent Hill not hearing what I was trying to say,
16 but I felt abandoned by other members of the leadership
17 team.
18 REPRESENTATIVECONNOLLY: Okay.
19 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Otherquestionsfromthe
20 committee?
21 Q. (BY SPEAKER LUBNAU) Mr. Clark, you testified
22 earlier that you had met with Representative Stubson and I
23 and others regarding Senate File 104; is that correct?
24 A. Thatiscorrect.
25 Q. And that was in January of last year?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 814
1 A. To the best of my recollection, yes.
2 Q. Have you met with any members of the legislature
3 to discuss this committee investigation?
4 A. Mr. Chairman, no, sir.
5 Q. And all of the things that you told
6 Representative Stubson and I and others at that meeting in
7 January of last year, you testified to it the next day in
8 front of the House Appropriations Committee; is that
9 correct?
10 A. Mr. Chairman, that is correct.
11 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Otherquestions,
12 Committee? I have a list of questions from the
13 superintendent and Mr. Masters. From Mr. Masters --
14 Mr. Masters -- oh. Did you supervise the operational role
15 of the Department?
16 Doyouhavemore?
17 MR.MASTERS: Ijustwouldwithdrawthe
18 question. It's -- it's out of context at this point.
19 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Okay. Allright.
20 Q. (BY SPEAKER LUBNAU) Were you aware of hostility
21 towards Superintendent Hill by WDE employees?
22 A. Mr. Chairman, I'm not sure that I would use the
23 word "hostility" in reference to the feelings that members
24 of the Wyoming Department of Education had toward
25 Superintendent Hill. I was aware of some of their
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 815
1 emotions, yes.
2 Q. What were those emotions?
3 A. Feelings of distrust on the part of some of the
4 leaders within the divisions. Certainly feelings of, I
5 guess, being wayward. They didn't have a moral comp -- I
6 guess a compass -- an organizational compass to follow in
7 terms of leadership.
8 Q. Were you aware of any employees being
9 disrespectful to Superintendent Hill?
10 A. Not that I have direct remembrance of, no, sir.
11 Q. Have you ever heard Mary Kay Hill making
12 disparaging statements about Superintendent Hill to
13 legislators?
14 A. No,sir.
15 Q. Were you aware that Mary Kay Hill stated there
16 were grenades under Cindy's chair she didn't even know
17 about?
18 A. Yes,sir.
19 Q. If so, what did you do to address or otherwise
20 respond to that threatening statement?
21 A. As I recall, Superintendent Hill responded to
22 that statement.
23 Q. Please describe the circumstances of your
24 departure. I think you probably -- is there anything that
25 you haven't already told us?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 816
1 A. I'm sure there's a lot I haven't told you, but
2 whether it is relevant at this time, I don't believe so.
3 Q. Did you advise the superintendent not to help
4 Fremont 38?
5 A. No, sir.
6 Q. Do you know that Fremont 38 refused to work with
7 you?
8 A. No, sir.
9 Q. Isn't it true that you testified to a committee
10 that the WDE would not perform under the terms of an RFP
11 as required by law?
12 A. I'm not sure I understand the question.
13 Q. Isn't it true that your wife made a donation to
14 Jim McBride's campaign during the primary?
15 A. No, sir. I made the campaign donation.
16 Q. Of the people that you are describing leaving
17 the WDE, were you aware that the governor's office was
18 actively recruiting employees to leave?
19 A. Please repeat that question.
20 Q. Of the people you described leaving the Wyoming
21 Department of Education, were you aware that the
22 governor's office was actively recruiting employees to
23 leave?
24 A. NotthatIrecall.
25 Q. Regarding departing employees, do you know the
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 817
1 actual numbers?
2 A. Atwhattime?
3 Q. Well, that's the next question. What percent
4 left the first year and what percent left the second year?
5 A. I have no clear recollection.
6 Q. How did the 2010 PAWS assessment failure affect
7 Wyoming?
8 A. Are we talking about the issues with Pearson?
9 Q. Iimagineso.
10 A. Oh, depending on which district you were in,
11 what students were impacted, that had various impacts on
12 districts. I don't know that as a WDE employee. I know
13 that as a practicing superintendent at that time.
14 Q. Who in the WDE was responsible for ensuring PAWS
15 administration was successful?
16 A. I -- Mr. Chairman, I assume that would have come
17 from the assessment division in Laramie.
18 Q. Who in the WDE was responsible for this failure?
19 A. Are we talking about the 2010 failure?
20 Q. Apparentlyso.
21 A. I wasn't employed at the WDE at that time, so I
22 have no direct knowledge.
23 Q. Okay. Where were they housed?
24 A. Well, again, based upon my last answer, if I
25 don't have a direct understanding of who is responsible, I
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 818
1 don't know who -- those unnamed people were housed.
2 Q. How were you involved in a more positive
3 administration under Superintendent Hill?
4 A. I'm not sure what that question's asking.
5 Q. Well, was there a more positive administration
6 under Superintendent Hill?
7 A. As compared to what, Mr. Chairman?
8 Q. Idon'tknow.
9 A. NeitherdoI.
10 Q. Okay. When was the last time you were under
11 contract with the WDE?
12 A. It would have been June 23rd, 2011.
13 Q. So after the MacPherson report, you have done
14 contract work for the WDE; isn't that true?
15 A. That'snottrue.
16 Q. Okay. Have you done any contract work from
17 the -- for the WDE from 2012 forward?
18 A. No,sir.
19 Q. If asked, would you like to be the director of
20 the Wyoming Department of Education?
21 A. Absolutely not, sir.
22 Q. Smartman.
23 Do you believe Cindy Hill has any positive
24 qualities?
25 A. Yes,sir.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 819
1 Q. If so, what are they?
2 A. She has a nice smile.
3 Q. Did you testify in favor of Senate File 104?
4 A. Yes, I did, sir.
5 Q. Who asked you to do this?
6 A. I did that on my own volition.
7 Q. Isn't it true you received a contract with the
8 Wyoming Department of Education after you testified for
9 Senate File 104?
10 A. That is not correct, sir.
11 Q. Describe any conversations you had with anyone
12 regarding Senate File 104, either verbally or by e-mail
13 and other than the one that you described with
14 Representative Stubson and I.
15 A. How broad do I cast the net on any one who --
16 Q. Legislators, governor's office.
17 A. No comments to the governor's office. Thinking
18 back through any of the legislators I may have visited
19 about, and I don't know if this was after the testimony,
20 but could have been, there were several people certainly
21 in the rotunda that I remember visiting with. Perhaps
22 Elaine Harvey at some point, but I don't have any direct
23 recollection.
24 SPEAKER LUBNAU: There are no further
25 questions. Any objection to re -- Representative
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 820
1 Zwonitzer.
2 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER) When you offered
3 your resignation to Superintendent Hill, was there any
4 discussion of her wanting to keep you on or were you
5 adamant that you were leaving at that point?
6 You testified earlier that the first time you
7 thought about resigning there was communication and
8 discussion and kind of a commitment that you were part of
9 the team to do better. The second time when you submitted
10 your resignation, was that something that was still there?
11 A. Mr. Chairman. Mr. Zwonitzer -- Representative
12 Zwonitzer, I had a discussion or phone call from
13 Superintendent Hill shortly after my resignation. It was
14 a cordial conversation, but it did not extend to would you
15 stay or anything to that effect. However, on the 24th,
16 Chairman, there was a correspondence sent out, a memo, to
17 folks within the Department in which Superintendent Hill
18 praised my service to her during the first six months.
19 REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER: Okay.
20 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Any further questions?
21 Good. Any objection to releasing Mr. Clark from
22 his subpoena?
23 You are released. Thank you, Mr. Clark. I
24 appreciate you coming here and sharing with us on this late
25 evening. Thank you very much.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 821
1 Committee -- Representative Davison.
2 REPRESENTATIVE DAVISON: I make a motion to
3 adjourn.
4 SPEAKER LUBNAU: There's no discussion so I
5 didn't recognize you for that because we have some more
6 business to take care of.
7 Committee, we've got an order of witnesses
8 tomorrow that has been suggested by counsel.
9 Representative Throne has whispered in my ear that we
10 readjust that order and take the superintendent's testimony
11 before she leaves at noon. I think it fair to our counsel
12 that they know the order of witnesses we prefer, so
13 thoughts?
14 Representative Throne, since you whispered at me.
15 REPRESENTATIVE THRONE: Mr. Chairman, it's
16 probably no surprise that our decision to release the
17 superintendent from her subpoena is sort of out there on
18 the e-mail and social media and all that. And there's a
19 perception -- we need to hear from the superintendent, and
20 I fear if we do the other two witnesses first, we'll
21 probably have 30 seconds of time left before noon.
22 And since we did accommodate the superintendent's
23 request to be released from the subpoena at noon, I don't
24 have any misgivings about letting her -- or asking her to
25 go -- go first and thereby miss the other two witnesses,
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 822
1 but she can have a representative here.
2 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Davison.
3 Representative Davison.
4 REPRESENTATIVE DAVISON: Mr. Chairman, I
5 would concur with that, if Superintendent Hill's okay with
6 that.
7 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Superintendent Hill?
8 SUPERINTENDENT HILL: I am.
9 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Other thoughts?
10 Counsel, would you be prepared at 8:00 tomorrow
11 morning to start off with Superintendent Hill, then?
12 MR. SALZBURG: Mr. Speaker, I'm prepared
13 now.
14 SPEAKER LUBNAU: You want to start now?
15 REPRESENTATIVE DAVISON: I'm making that
16 motion again.
17 SPEAKER LUBNAU: All right. Representative
18 Davison, your motion is now in order.
19 REPRESENTATIVE DAVISON: I make a motion
20 that we adjourn.
21 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Okay. Without objection,
22 we'll be in recess until 8:00 tomorrow morning.
23 (Evening session Hearing proceedings
24 recessed 8:45 p.m., January 7, 2014.)
25
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 823
1 CERTIFICATE
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3 I, KATHY J. KENDRICK, a Registered Professional
4 Reporter, do hereby certify that I reported by machine
5 shorthand the foregoing proceedings contained herein,
6 constituting a full, true and correct transcript.
7 Dated this 14th day of January, 2014.
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