LAW REFORM COMMITTEE Inquiry into legal services in rural – 12 September 2000

Members Ms D. G. Hadden Mr A. J. McIntosh Mr P. A. Katsambanis Mr R. E. Stensholt Mr T. Languiller Mr M. H. Thompson Ms A. L. McCall

Chairman: Mr M. H. Thompson Deputy Chairman: Ms D. G. Hadden

Staff Executive Officer: Ms P. Raman Research Officers: Ms S. Vohra and Ms M. Mason

Witness Mr P. Murphy, Gippsland Law Association.

12 September 2000 Law Reform Committee 593 The CHAIRMAN — Thank you for attending, Mr Murphy. Your evidence will have the benefit of privilege under the Parliamentary Committees Act and is protected from judicial review. You will receive a copy of the transcript and I ask you to return it at your earliest convenience to committee staff. I thank the firm of Warren, Graham and Murphy for its contribution to good government in Victoria by sending Peter Ryan to Spring Street. He has been well trained and I trust that he keeps in contact with his former colleagues. Mr MURPHY — He does from time to time, but he would be busy. The CHAIRMAN — We would be pleased to receive your insight into access to law and legal services in rural and regional Victoria and how the use of technology in that regard could be improved. Mr MURPHY — Would you like me to run through the matters you have raised? The CHAIRMAN — Yes, and we can ask questions. Mr MURPHY — The committee asks whether adequate legal services, including advice, legal representation and so on are available in rural and regional Victoria. Certainly adequate legal services are, in the main, available in regional and rural Victoria. There is a significant distinction between regional and rural Victoria. I would define Traralgon, Sale and probably even Bairnsdale as regional towns, whereas Orbost, Mallacoota, and others are clearly rural towns. Basically the further you get away from and the smaller the town, the less adequate are the legal services. That is obvious from a geographical point of view. I would like to see, if possible, courts and tribunals accessing rural towns more than they do. The local court is good — it goes to Omeo and Orbost, and sometimes to Mallacoota — but it would assist if VCAT and the courts could look to being more available in that area. I think the Law Institute of Victoria has already raised with the committee the reopening of the Lakes Entrance court. It closed five years ago because of lack of a building, but that has caused some concern to the people of Lakes Entrance. That is one court that could benefit from being reopened. As to legal services, by and large the comments about the distinction between rural and regional Victoria would hold. The major problem in rural is that people who do not fall within the legal aid guidelines may not receive adequate and basic legal advice. That will be assisted somewhat by the establishment of the community legal centre in , although that depends on the ability of that organisation to effectively go on circuit and travel to Bairnsdale. In one sense Morwell is a good place for it, but Morwell already has a full-time Victoria Legal Aid office and a number of solicitors. I am not criticising it being there, but for it to be effective it must go on circuit to more remote areas. Most firms in the country do legal aid and are happy to do it. Certainly my firm does it and has done so for many years, but it is what could be described as the minor, sometimes difficult cases such as neighbourhood disputes, crimes (family violence) matters, crash-and-bash matters, and small debt problems where people cannot afford to engage a mainstream solicitor and are not eligible for legal aid. It will perform a great justice to rural and regional Victoria if the community legal aid centre can fill that gap. We would like alternative dispute resolution mechanisms to be available in the bush. I heard you talk to the registrar about his role in that area. If there were no dispute resolutions available, for example, in crimes (family violence) matters, the courts would be clogged up. Most of those matters are capable of resolution by mediation and should not take up 3 or 4 hours of the court’s time. The local registrar, Dale West, does a good job in that area and essentially acts as an education mediator. Perhaps more training or resources could be put into that area. That would assist. I think technology is a major issue. Technology can clearly benefit people living in rural and remote areas because it enables them to access things they cannot otherwise access. For example, our firm has found the Internet to be of enormous benefit. If that can be plugged into the more rural areas, that will really increase their ability to access all sorts of things. For some reason the video-link system in Bairnsdale is not used very much; it tends to be used in Sale more than in Bairnsdale. That would be a great thing.

12 September 2000 Law Reform Committee 594 Ms HADDEN — Did you say there is now a video link at the court? Mr MURPHY — I think it has the technology for it. It has a screen, a microphone and that sort of thing. Ms HADDEN — I think Dale said there was not. Is that right? The CHAIRMAN — They have it at Morwell, but — — Mr MURPHY — And at Sale, but not in Bairnsdale. It might just need a line or something, I am not sure. Certainly the hardware is there, such as the screen, microphones and that sort of thing, but it might need to be hooked up to something; I am not sure. If that could happen it would be of great benefit, because callovers, direction hearings and all those sorts of things could be done via a video link. I think a video link could be used much more often than it is. Ms HADDEN — How does a court here with no videoconferencing facilities link up with the prisons in the district? Mr MURPHY — It does not. For the prisons you have to go to Moe. The County Court criminal list callovers are all conducted in Moe or Morwell. Ms HADDEN — What about for appearances in between, when they are still in remand? Mr MURPHY — If they have to come to Bairnsdale the police have to bring them to Bairnsdale, which is a bit of a nightmare. What happens now is that once a person has been committed for trial, all the preliminary work is done in either Moe or Morwell, and the person only comes to Bairnsdale for the trial itself. Ms HADDEN — All because there is no video link-up system here? Mr MURPHY — Yes. The Sale court seems to have a video link-up in the Children’s Court. It does video link-up work in the Children’s Court but does not seem to do it in the County Court. Ms HADDEN — What is the reception for that type of technology in this district? Mr MURPHY — Reception being acceptance or physical — — Ms HADDEN — Physical reception? Mr MURPHY — Not too bad. It gets worse as you get out of town. There are two Internet providers in Bairnsdale. It is fairly slow, but it is not too bad. As you get further away the telephone lines are worse and the service is slower and more expensive. But most areas are covered. There is Internet access in most areas. The CHAIRMAN — For what purposes does your firm use the Internet primarily? Mr MURPHY — For communication email and for access to the latest court decisions. It is mainly for continuing legal education; it is brilliant in that regard. In the old days practitioners were always wandering off to court thinking that some case had just been decided that they did not know about. Now they get access to decisions straightaway. For people who cannot afford lawyers’ web sites, the Family Court web site, for example, is very good. I think VCAT is about to launch a new one soon, and that looks pretty good. They give the basic answers to questions people often ask. I think the more computer-literate people can benefit there. I suppose it is a bit of a contradiction in that many people who need that sort of advice perhaps do not have access to the Internet — but I guess that is a separate issue. Ms HADDEN — Is there a community centre in Bairnsdale that has the Internet set up?

12 September 2000 Law Reform Committee 595 Mr MURPHY — Yes, there are a couple. For example, people seeking divorces use it a lot because they can download the forms off the Internet, tick the boxes and send them off. Ms HADDEN — Is the Internet the only way by which solicitors in this region can continue to access legal education? Mr MURPHY — No, it is not the only way; the other way is through videos, which is really the major way. Commercial providers such as the Business Law Education Centre — I think it has changed its name to the Television Education Network — the institute, and the Leo Cussen Institute are pretty good in that regard, and the institute and Leo Cussen come to the country fairly often. For example, they will be in Traralgon tomorrow night. Ms HADDEN — Who is coming here? Mr MURPHY — I think the liability committee is giving a lecture tomorrow night. Ms HADDEN — At the law institute? Mr MURPHY — Yes, and they are pretty good about that. The combination of the Internet and video technology, et cetera, is such that by and large country practitioners can keep up with city practitioners through continuing legal education. The CHAIRMAN — How many lawyers are members of the Gippsland Law Association? Mr MURPHY — About 100, I think. The CHAIRMAN — How many lawyers are either employed by or are part of the firm Warren, Graham and Murphy? Mr MURPHY — About 11. Ms HADDEN — Do you have branch offices? Mr MURPHY — Yes, at Lakes Entrance and Sale, and part-time offices at Orbost, Omeo and Mallacoota. The CHAIRMAN — Where is the head office? Mr MURPHY — Bairnsdale. Ms HADDEN — Are all the legal practitioners in this region members of the law association? Mr MURPHY — No, there are some who are not, but not many. Eighty per cent of lawyers in Gippsland would be members of the GLA. It costs a fairly nominal amount — I think it is $10 a year or something — to join, and most people join. The CHAIRMAN — Can you foresee the day when you could use videoconferencing for barristers’ conferences? Mr MURPHY — Yes, I think that would be of great benefit. Country people do not mind travelling to the city, but to go there just to see a barrister for a couple of hours is a fair trip — as you would know from being on the train yesterday — and involves a fair time commitment. I think videoconferencing for barristers would be a very good thing. The CHAIRMAN — Does Warren, Graham and Murphy have plans to develop its own videoconferencing facility? Mr MURPHY — We have looked into it. It is fairly expensive. You have to get a dedicated ISDN line, or something like that. For the sort of price we were quoted, which I think was $20 000 or

12 September 2000 Law Reform Committee 596 $30 000, it was just not worth it, but in a global context it could be. If a line were provided to the court, we would be quite happy to pay for time. I think other practitioners in the area would be as well. The CHAIRMAN — Has there been a depletion in the work coming from this region because it has gone to larger city firms? We have heard evidence that hospital board, water authority and local government work had been transferred to city firms which might have been used just for specialist advice from time to time but which now headhunt rural work, making it harder for some traditionally based rural firms? Mr MURPHY — There is certainly some evidence of that. The local government here uses a mixture of local and city firms; the water board uses local firms; and the hospital board uses local firms. In most local organisations there is often a representative who has some connection with the law, anyway. We are pretty strong about keeping that work locally if we can. Two things might send it away: one is conflict of interest, which arises fairly often; and the second is that sometimes the work is of such a specialised nature that it is appropriate that it be sent to Melbourne. I do not think I can say that all local work that arises in this area must be done in this area, because there are some areas in which we do not have the expertise — but that is a pretty small percentage. Probably 80 or 90 per cent of the work that arises here could be done locally. I think people are better served in Bairnsdale than they are in Traralgon or Morwell in that regard. I think it is easier for people in Morwell and Traralgon, et cetera, to go to Melbourne, because it is closer — and there may be other reasons. The Bairnsdale organisations are fairly careful about not sending work to Melbourne unless they really have to. The CHAIRMAN — How would you define the role of local practitioners with pro bono work? Mr MURPHY — Most practitioners in the country who run traditional country legal firms do an enormous amount of pro bono work — they always have — and they probably do not get the recognition they deserve for it. For example, for many years my firm has had the culture that you never knock someone back, even if the person cannot pay, not necessarily for altruistic reasons but because the person may come back the next week with something for which he or she can pay. Often you get telephone calls about matters; sometimes you write letters but do not charge for them. Most country practitioners do that. If you were to try to put a value on that work, it would be enormous. It has been of concern that an attempt to compartmentalise that is almost a disincentive because if there were a community legal centre here, for example, you may think, ‘I will not write the letter to the department for nothing; the person can go over to the CLC’. I am not sure how you get around that position; suburban firms would probably do the same. I am not sure city firms would have the same view. I have to do pro bono work if I am to be successful in the country. If we charged everybody who walked in the door the client would not go to another practitioner. That has been the case for a long while. Ms VOHRA — You mentioned there is a huge amount of minor work that does not fall under Victoria Legal Aid guidelines and that the CLC in Morwell may take some of that work. Is that the sort of work being done now by private solicitors? Mr MURPHY — Yes, social security disputes. Ms VOHRA — They are being done on a pro bono basis? Mr MURPHY — By and large, yes. Ms VOHRA — The CLC may take pressure off you? Mr MURPHY — The more complicated cases, where you have to open the file and write five or six letters, go beyond what I define as acceptable pro bono. That is something a CLC could handle. But it is common if a fellow comes in the door and wants quick advice about, for example, contact with his

12 September 2000 Law Reform Committee 597 child or a blue with his neighbour, or whatever; it happens all the time. I would regard that as the bulk of the pro bono work done by country practitioners. Ms HADDEN — Do you have young solicitors in the region? Mr MURPHY — The attraction of lawyers is a problem in the country. It is worse in Bairnsdale, for example, because it is further from Melbourne. It would have a worse problem than, say, Ballarat or Bendigo. We now tend to recruit locals; three of the four young solicitors in our firm are locals in that they went to school locally, went on to university and returned here. Ms HADDEN — What is the average age of solicitors in Bairnsdale, or of members of the Gippsland Law Association? Mr MURPHY — Probably my age, about early 40s. The Gippsland Law Association has a problem at the moment in getting young blood into the executive. I have been on it for 10 years basically because of the lack of younger solicitors. The problem is you cannot compete with the wages paid by big firms to second-year and third-year solicitors. It is not the same problem that, for example, doctors have, but it is becoming more of a problem. I thought that when Latrobe and Deakin universities started their law courses by this stage there would be a glut of lawyers, but that is not the case. The demand for lawyers seems to be increasing. It is a problem to get quality people to come to the country. Ms HADDEN — What is the ratio of women solicitors in your association? Mr MURPHY — I do not know the percentage, but there are a lot of female solicitors in Gippsland. Our firm has three and there are a lot of successful female solicitors in Morwell and Traralgon. Most, but not all, have come from the country. It would probably be more difficult for a young female solicitor who had been brought up in the city to establish herself in the country than it would be for a young male solicitor. The CHAIRMAN — If Senator John Herron or the federal member Bob McMullan or, in Victoria, Keith Hamilton or Robert Dean, people who have ministerial or shadow ministerial responsibilities for Aboriginal affairs, were to seek an opinion from you as to what would reduce the proportion of Kooris in the criminal justice system and increase their retention in the education system, would you have any wise ideas you could pass on? Mr MURPHY — It is a complex and difficult topic. Bairnsdale has a large Koori population, and racism in Bairnsdale is certainly an issue. There is no easy answer to the problem. On one level it is easy to say there is a lack of employment opportunities for not only Kooris but for young people generally who are not particularly skilled — in other words, those who have not gone to university and received some formal training. The ability of that person to get a job in Bairnsdale is much less than it was 20 years ago because the demand for unskilled labour has dropped dramatically. Unemployment is a problem here. Apart from that, there are programs that can bring families together and important programs that address the problem of drugs. Drugs have become an issue in Bairnsdale — I am talking about heroin versus marijuana and that sort of thing. Funding those sorts of programs would at least assist, but it is a matter of getting to the point where the programs create long-term solutions as opposed to continuing to have funds being allocated every year. The CHAIRMAN — Are there areas of legal advice that are not covered in the skills base within the region and for which there is a demand? Mr MURPHY — In specialised areas. I do not think any Gippsland solicitor would be competent to advise a major corporation about taking over another major corporation, about complicated trade practices problems or something of that nature. However, putting aside specialised corporate financial advice, basically the bulk of other sorts of advice is available in one way, shape or form. Various people in the area have different specialities — industrial law, family law and so on.

12 September 2000 Law Reform Committee 598 The CHAIRMAN — Is any of the Esso litigation or related aspects being undertaken by local firms? Mr MURPHY — Do you mean the Longford issue? The CHAIRMAN — Yes. Mr MURPHY — Yes, Slater and Gordon in Morwell have a stake in that and a practitioner in Maffra also has a stake in it. There are a number of practitioners in Gippsland who are competent to look after that sort of litigation. The Slater and Gordon office in Morwell would be the most experienced in asbestosis litigation in Australia. That is a specialised area. Ms HADDEN — Is the no win, no fee slogan popular in this region with your association? Mr MURPHY — It depends on who you ask. Many country firms — for example my firm — have been doing no win, no fee matters for a long time before somebody at Slater and Gordon had the brilliant idea of dreaming it up. Certainly some people in the personal injuries area are attracted by that slogan and it is a useful marketing tool. But it is somewhat misleading. It basically means, ‘If you have a strong case we will take it on; you can pay when we win’ — but who wouldn’t take it on? You can have a problem in the marginal or weak cases, but to their credit some firms, such as Slater and Gordon, will take on those marginal cases. They can afford to do it and that improves the access of people to legal services. Ms HADDEN — Even with a weak case — is that an equitable use of resources? Mr MURPHY — It depends on how you define ‘weak case’. I think there is a distinction between weak and frivolous but there is no black and white in that area. People’s taking on of frivolous cases — and I think there is some evidence of that — is not an appropriate use of legal resources but I think in most cases people’s taking on of marginal cases can be justified. Ms VOHRA — Do the firms here have a scheme whereby first interviews are free? Mr MURPHY — Yes. Ms VOHRA — It is pretty much across the board? Mr MURPHY — Yes, and country people basically expect that anyway. Most people who come to see me for a first interview expect that they will not be charged for initial advice. Ms HADDEN — It has always amazed me that people expect that with lawyers but not with doctors or dentists, yet they are equally professional. Why is it that people expect lawyers to do first interviews and work for free? Mr MURPHY — Yes. Part of it — I agree with you entirely. For some reason people have a different view on paying lawyers’ bills than they have on paying doctors’ and dentists’ bills. Ms HADDEN — Or mechanics’ bills. Mr MURPHY — Exactly. Part of it is that the first interview is a bit of a different experience. If you see a doctor at a first interview you normally know what the problem is and say, ‘I have a headache’, or whatever it is, ‘Fix me up’. But people often wander in and are not really sure if they have legal problems or not. I am quite happy to point them in the right direction there. I think that is fair enough. So I think there is a bit of a difference in that sense. The CHAIRMAN — Does the local profession participate in the duty lawyer scheme operating out of Bairnsdale? Mr MURPHY — Not for the one in Bairnsdale but it does for the one in Sale. For some reason the Bairnsdale duty lawyer service is run solely by legal aid. It does a good job.

12 September 2000 Law Reform Committee 599 Ms HADDEN — How long has that been going for? Mr MURPHY — Three or four years. Ms HADDEN — Before that it would have been done by local solicitors? Mr MURPHY — Yes, it was done on an ad hoc basis. To be honest, we probably shot ourselves in the feet because we were reluctant to introduce a formal duty lawyer scheme simply because we got paid less for doing that than for doing legal aid proper. We shot ourselves in the feet because legal aid came and now runs its own scheme. I cannot really criticise it for doing that but there is no reason why local practitioners should not operate in it. Ms HADDEN — You do it at which other courts? The Sale court? Mr MURPHY — The Sale court has a proper duty lawyer scheme in which the local practitioners participate. However, legal aid does not have an office in Sale, whereas it does in Bairnsdale. The CHAIRMAN — What are your own areas of practice? Mr MURPHY — Personally? The CHAIRMAN — Yes. Mr MURPHY — Crime, personal injury and family law. The CHAIRMAN — Does that bring you into contact with many members of the Koori community, or does VALS basically take most of the criminal work here? Mr MURPHY — It does a bit because VALS often has conflicts and refers the conflicts out. I do quite a bit of that. Before VALS had an office in Bairnsdale — this is going back some time — we used to do its agency work from its Melbourne office. In recent years I have not had the contact I used to have; previously it was fairly significant. Ms HADDEN — What impact has the cessation of Family Court circuits to this region had on people’s access to the Family Court? Mr MURPHY — That is more so in Gippsland proper — Traralgon, Morwell, et cetera. The problem with circuits in Bairnsdale is really that a lot of Bairnsdale people see going to Traralgon the same as going to Dandenong. They certainly take the view, ‘If I am going to Traralgon, I may as well go to Dandenong’. I think the mooted closure or the reduction in services of the Dandenong Family Court would have a much more significant impact than circuits. To his credit, the chief justice has promised more circuits to this area, including Bairnsdale. If that happens it would alleviate the problem. Ms HADDEN — Has he told you when that is likely to happen? Mr MURPHY — Yes, we have been told there is to be a circuit in November. Ms HADDEN — Yesterday we were told September — the witness said ‘next month’. Ms VOHRA — I think Dale said November. Ms HADDEN — Yes, I know, but the CEO of the Family Court said next month. Mr MURPHY — The County Court is sitting here next month; it would be difficult to run two at the same time. Ms HADDEN — They do elsewhere, although I suppose it depends how many courtrooms there are.

12 September 2000 Law Reform Committee 600 Mr MURPHY — Yes, the second courtroom is pretty small. Ms HADDEN — If it is intended to run a circuit in November when there has not been one here for — how many years? Mr MURPHY — There has never been one in Bairnsdale. Ms HADDEN — Where would it get the cases from — Dandenong? Mr MURPHY — No, it would pick local cases. It would ring the local practitioners and say, ‘Where are your cases? We will list them’. As I say, 99 out of 100 family law files never get to final hearings. It is more about counselling, registrar’s hearings and those sorts of things, which are much more important to me than final hearings. Ms HADDEN — No-one can afford to go to a final hearing, with a $10 000 cap for VLA. Not many of them get beyond it, do they? Mr MURPHY — No, and most cases will never get to final hearings, anyway — they just need some counselling or a couple of registrar’s hearings and they are resolved. A counselling service does come to Bairnsdale but it could certainly come more often. I would be just as happy having the counselling service and the registrar come once a month as I would having final hearings. I would have one or two final hearings in the Family Court a year, and most practitioners would be the same. I would be quite happy for them to be run at Dandenong, if that is what it comes to. Talking about access to justice, most people will go to the Family Court but the vast majority will never go near a final hearing. The CHAIRMAN — Peter, what impact has the establishment of a legal aid office in Bairnsdale had on work flow for the private profession in Bairnsdale? Mr MURPHY — It has restricted the work flow, yes, there is no doubt about that. In an ideal world I would not have a legal aid office in Bairnsdale because the solicitor there, who is a very competent solicitor, does a lot of work that would otherwise be done by private practitioners. Ms HADDEN — As well as doing the duty solicitor scheme? Mr MURPHY — Yes. Ms HADDEN — How can the solicitor physically do all that? Mr MURPHY — The court sits here only two days a week, so it can be done on the other days. Ms HADDEN — I thought she was involved with another couple of duty solicitor schemes, which takes her out of the office for three of the four days for which she is employed? Mr MURPHY — Like most legal aid lawyers, she has a preference for criminal law because it is generally more interesting. Ms HADDEN — Where does the civil work get done? Mr MURPHY — She refers that out. Most civil work, apart from family law work, is not done by legal aid. The legal aid lawyers basically do criminal law and family law. By and large, family law matters are referred out and the criminal law matters are done by her. Ms VOHRA — Does the office provide free advice? Mr MURPHY — Yes, it does, but as Dianne was saying, she is often in court, and I am told it is hard to get an appointment with her just for general advice. The CLC, if it comes to Bairnsdale, would relieve that pressure, I think. Ms HADDEN — Unless it picks up the court work as well because it has a preference for it.

12 September 2000 Law Reform Committee 601 Mr MURPHY — Yes. We had a meeting with the CLC about that very issue, and naturally enough someone said, ‘We would not want to do court appearances’. The view of the GLA, which I agree with, is that that is not where the resources are needed. There are plenty of solicitors around who are happy to do court appearances. Ms HADDEN — Yes, that is why I am querying the VLA’s credibility here. It should be sitting down and seeing clients who fall through the net. Mr MURPHY — Look, I agree with that, but to get solicitors who are prepared to do that is another matter. Ms HADDEN — That is what the contract is. Mr MURPHY — For private practitioners, legal aid criminal law is very good work in the sense that it is quick turnover and it is fairly interesting. The pay is not brilliant but it is not too bad, and private practitioners can easily cope with that. The CHAIRMAN — We received evidence to the effect that there is generally adequate provision of legal services in Victoria without necessarily needing to rely on community legal centres or legal aid lawyers. That was an original submission that was given to us in the city. We have received evidence from the local profession in Warrnambool, Portland, Echuca and Wodonga that from time to time in certain areas there has been a happy take up of legal advice from CLCs. Would you care to elaborate on that and on the compatibility of two separate systems of getting legal advice sitting side by side? Mr MURPHY — CLCs can offer people specialised advice that private practitioners cannot because they do not have the time or training; for example, in areas such as crimes family violence, in disputes with government organisations, Workcover, and the federal Department of Social Security in particular, in Department of Human Services matters, tenancy matters, consumer credit matters — all those sorts of matters where almost by definition you do not have a paying client and, although you are happy to provide pro bono work and can look up the Fitzroy Legal Service manual to advise people, you do not have the ability or skills to advise those people on a long-term basis. That is very much where the CLCs can play a role. In the United of America States they call it poverty law. It is that area that requires people with different skills. Ms HADDEN — But not all community legal centres employ solicitors with those types of skills? Mr MURPHY — I am not sure about that; but if they do not, that is a problem in itself. There is no point in CLCs employing people who want to go to the Magistrates Court every day. It is a waste of money. They need people with those sorts of skills. The CHAIRMAN — Why is sending them to court a waste of money? Mr MURPHY — The courts are already covered. Private practitioners are happy to do it and if they cannot, Victoria Legal Aid lawyers are happy to do it — for example, in Moe the VLA office is in court every day and it would be a waste of resources to send a lawyer from the CLC to the court as well. They said to us that they would confine it to specialised areas, such as for people with disabilities. That is fine, but I suspect it is likely to go beyond that. It is a matter of going beyond that and getting it back to providing the services they are meant to provide. Ms HADDEN — You say the CLC solicitor is at Moe court every day? Mr MURPHY — Yes, generally two are there. Ms HADDEN — What service does the VLA outreach office provide in Bairnsdale?

12 September 2000 Law Reform Committee 602 Mr MURPHY — It is similar to that provided in Moe. You would have to sit down and analyse the files, but I imagine 80 per cent of the work would be criminal pleas in the Magistrates Court. Most of that work can be done by private practitioners. Ms HADDEN — Do you have time sheets? Mr MURPHY — We do, but I do not use them; they are a tyranny. I thank the committee for coming to Bairnsdale. When I first heard that the committee was going to western Victoria I was about to write to the committee and say, ‘Come here’, but you pre-empted that. The CHAIRMAN — Thank you for your evidence, Mr Murphy. Witness withdrew.

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