Monday Volume 682 19 October 2020 No. 122

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Monday 19 October 2020 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2020 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 735 19 OCTOBER 2020 736

The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Dr Thérèse House of Commons Coffey): I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his question, because he gives me the opportunity to highlight Monday 19 October 2020 again what we are doing to help people in the sectors worst affected by the covid-19 outbreak. I have worked with my colleagues across government in forming and The House met at half-past Two o’clock delivering our £30 billion plan for jobs to increase employment support, protect jobs and create new PRAYERS opportunities. He will be aware of the kickstart scheme, which particularly focuses on young people, but we will continue to help people of all ages to get back into work. [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] Virtual participation in proceedings commenced Chris Elmore: May I raise the specific issue of the (Order, 4 June). support that is available to single parents when their [NB: [V] denotes a Member participating virtually.] child has to self-isolate? They are not able to claim statutory sick pay if their child is having to self-isolate at school age. In addition, if they were to apply for universal credit, they would have to restart the process each and Oral Answers to Questions every time. I have constituents who have had to self-isolate on multiple occasions because their school-age children have been told they have to stay at home and cannot WORK AND PENSIONS stay at home on their own. Can the Secretary of State either tell me now, or come back to me on it in writing, The Secretary of State was asked— what specific support can be directed towards constituents who need that additional support as single parents? Job Entry Targeted Support Dr Coffey: I will certainly ask the Minister for Disabled Miriam Cates (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Con): People, Health and Work to look into that detailed What steps she is taking to ensure that the job entry issue on SSP. If a person is required to self-isolate as a targeted support programme supports jobseekers to consequence of somebody in their household having move into growth sectors of the economy. [907669] symptoms, then, in my view, they should be eligible for SSP. But given that it is such a legal and technical issue, The Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work I will ask my hon. Friend to write to the hon. Gentleman (Justin Tomlinson): Our new JETS scheme has started specifically. rolling out across the country and blasted off in my hon. Friend’s constituency on 5 October. The scheme Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) [V]: Ending the has £238 million of funding that is dedicated to helping furlough scheme early is going to put livelihoods at risk, people who have been out of work for three or more so will the Secretary of State provide an update on her months and may be at risk of long-term unemployment. discussions with the Treasury about extending the covid- JETS will see a variety of providers work at our local related increase to universal credit and ensuring that it jobcentre networks to offer a range of bespoke services, is expanded to legacy benefits? While she is in those including important advice on how people can move discussions, will she raise extending the furlough scheme into new, growing sectors, as well as help with CV and ask that the covid self-isolation grants be tax-exempt, building and interview coaching. as called for by the Social Security Secretary in Scotland, Shirley-Ann Somerville? Miriam Cates: I am glad that the scheme is already helping my constituents in Penistone and Stocksbridge, Dr Coffey: There are multiple questions there. My many of whom are now struggling to find work as a right hon. Friend the Chancellor has already responded result of the pandemic. However, getting people back by introducing the new job support scheme, which he into work will require a national effort, so will he updated for particular sectors, thinking of tier 3 in provide a broader update on the roll-out of the scheme? England, to extend even further the furlough scheme. It is clear that this Government are doing what is needed. Justin Tomlinson: My hon. Friend is right to suggest In terms of the other things that the hon. Gentleman that tackling the impacts of covid will require a national mentions, he will be aware that I continue to have effort, and the DWP stands ready to deliver this with regular discussions with my Treasury colleagues on the our network of local jobcentres,which we will be expanding. best way that we can help to support people during this The JETS scheme started two weeks ago and is now live pandemic. right across England and Wales, and we are contracting anew in Scotland. We anticipate that as JETS continues Child Poverty: Covid-19 to roll out across Great Britain, it will help 280,000 of our claimants to find work and build the skills to pivot Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): What recent into new sectors if required. assessment she has made of the effect of the covid-19 outbreak on levels of child poverty. [907671] Covid-19 Support: Worst-affected Sectors The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work Chris Elmore (Ogmore) (Lab): What discussions she has andPensions(WillQuince):ThisGovernment’sunprecedented had with Cabinet colleagues on support for people in support package has supported the poorest working the sectors worst affected by the covid-19 outbreak. households the most, with Her Majesty’s Treasury’s [907670] analysisshowingthatthepoorest10%of workinghouseholds 737 Oral Answers 19 OCTOBER 2020 Oral Answers 738 have seen no income reduction, owing to the fast action our new job entry targeted support scheme—JETS—will taken by this Government in responding to the pandemic, help those who have been unemployed for more than including a £9.3 billion injection into the welfare system. three months move into new and growing sectors. Our additional job finding support service will provide targeted Alison McGovern: The problem with the Minister’s support for the newly unemployed, with local provisions answer is that this crisis is only revealing problems with available now and a national contract due in place from policies that we knew were there already. Members of 21 January. this House are against it; members of faith communities are against it; leading charities are against it; and now Marcus Rashford is campaigning against it. So what is Elliot Colburn: In Carshalton and Wallington, we the Minister going to do to end the two-child policy for know that the self-employed are the risk takers, and the universal credit once and for all? pandemic has shown that we need to be there for them. Work coaches have done a good job of knowing what is Will Quince: The two-child policy in universal credit fair and reasonable and are able to apply discretion is one of fundamental fairness, and it means that those when setting work search requirements, so will my hon. who are in receipt of benefits should be in the same Friend assure me that self-employed claimants will also position as those who are not. I am not a particular benefit from this personalised, discretionary approach football fan, but I certainly know Marcus Rashford’s as the minimum income floor is reintroduced? name now, and I congratulate him on his MBE. We welcome the establishment of the taskforce and will Mims Davies: I can assure my hon. Friend that claimants carefully consider its recommendations as we approach will always be contacted before the minimum income the spending review. floor is applied to them. Universal credit claimants who were subject to the minimum income floor prior to the Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab): Wealready pandemic will be given the opportunity to review their know that child poverty rates have been rising across self-employment status and activity, ensuring that their north-west England, and that is before the economic current circumstances are reflected and their business impact of the restrictions consequent upon tier 3. The continues to be viable before any reintroduction of the Chancellor talks about the way that the job support MIF. My hon. Friend will be aware that the regulations scheme and universal credit protect income, saying that to relax the MIF are in place until November, and I will it leaves households with 90% of their income, but update the House on arrangements beyond that in due many households will get nothing like that, and those course. who lose their jobs entirely sometimes go on to universal credit at 30% of income. What assessment has the Minister made of the impact of the restrictions on child Jason McCartney: I joined my caseworker on a recent poverty in the north-west and how that compares with a covid-safe visit to Huddersfield jobcentre, which is rolling local furlough scheme that protects all jobs that are at out a seven-day-a-week operation to support jobseekers. risk? Will the Minister join me in thanking all the team at Huddersfield jobcentre and continue to give them all Will Quince: I will look carefully at the points that the support required as they recruit the extra staff they the hon. Lady raises, but I stress that this Government need to support my constituents into work via kickstart have implemented an unprecedented support package, and other schemes? including the job retention scheme and the self-employment income support scheme, which has helped families to Mims Davies: I am more than happy to extend my cope with the financial impact of covid-19. For those great thanks to the DWP team in Huddersfield, as well most in need, we strengthened the welfare system with as their new colleagues. They have done sterling work in an additional £9 billion this year. That is in addition to setting up a new youth hub with Kirklees Council, as the around £5 billion increase to benefit rates as part of well as other activities involving kickstart, using sector-based the 2020-21 uprating, including around £400 million work academy programmes—SWAPs—and mentoring more on children’s benefits. circles and working with local employers to help more people in Huddersfield back into work. Supporting People into Work

Elliot Colburn (Carshalton and Wallington) (Con): Mark Fletcher: Does the Minister share my concern What steps she is taking to support people into work that young people in Bolsover and elsewhere are at risk throughout the UK. [907672] of being held back by the coronavirus pandemic? Will she commit to doing everything possible to ensure that Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): What steps opportunities are available to enable them to move she is taking to support people into work throughout forward in their careers and ensure that they reach their the UK. [907684] potential? Mark Fletcher (Bolsover) (Con): What steps she is taking to support people into work throughout the UK. Mims Davies: In September 2020, we started the [907690] implementation of our new DWP youth offer for all 18 to 24-year-olds making a claim for universal credit The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work who are in the intensive work search group. We are and Pensions (Mims Davies) [V]: This Government are on track in our ambitious plan for young people to working hard to help people into work with our £30 billion open around 100 DWP-led youth hubs nationally, and plan for jobs. Kickstart will provide a high-quality paid many are already in place, supporting our young people work placement for young people across the UK, and to progress. 739 Oral Answers 19 OCTOBER 2020 Oral Answers 740

Pension Schemes Bill: Net Zero Carbon Emissions Mark Jenkinson (Workington) (Con): What steps her Department has taken to support an effective transition between legacy benefits and universal credit. [907685] Christian Wakeford (Bury South) (Con): What steps she is taking through the Pension Schemes Bill to support The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work the Government’scommitment to net zero carbon emissions and Pensions (Will Quince): My Department continually by 2050. [907673] reviews its processes and the service it provides to claimants using a long-standing test and learn approach. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work In July, we introduced a two-week run-on of DWP and Pensions (Guy Opperman) [V]: As my hon. Friend income-related benefits, which is in addition to the knows, we want safer, better and greener pensions. This existing two-week extension of housing benefit that is Government were the first in a G7 country to legislate already payable to eligible claimants. Claimants who for net zero by 2050. We lead the way on environmental believe they may be better off on universal credit should regulation of pensions,and we are introducing transparency check their eligibility before applying, as legacy benefits of climate-related financial disclosures in the Pension will end when they submit their claim and they will not Schemes Bill that require schemes to take account of be able to return to them in the future. climate change goals, including net zero. Jo Gideon: I thank my hon. Friend for that answer. With difficult times ahead for Stoke-on-Trent families Christian Wakeford: I thank the Minister for his hit by the economic downturn caused by coronavirus, response. Climate change is the single biggest threat not does my hon. Friend agree that it is more important only to mankind, but to the planet. Does he agree with than ever for universal credit to offer any necessary me that if we are to meet the climate change targets set flexibility to ensure people get the support they need to out in the Paris agreement, more needs to be done to return to work, particularly those affected by local ensure that large financial institutions,including institutional lockdown restrictions? investors such as pension funds, channel more investment into areas that do not actively harm our environment Will Quince: I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. and contribute to climate change? Universal credit is designed to support people into work. It supports those who need help and is fair to Guy Opperman: I agree with my hon. Friend. The everyone who pays for it. Throughout the pandemic Government are setting a regulatory framework and many, sadly, have lost their jobs or seen their incomes enabling pension funds to make sustainable investments reduced. Thankfully,universal credit and the Government’s happen, whether that is through the Bill itself or through £9.3 billion investment in the welfare safety net have our illiquid investments proposals,which will see renewables, been there to help catch many of those affected, and hydrogen and potentially new nuclear. We do not believe that has been vital for the 3 million people who have in divestment, but we welcome the change in investment made a benefit claim since March. practice that is already beginning to take place, although Mark Jenkinson: Our plan for jobs will help people we want to see more. get the skills they need at every stage of their lives and delivers on our promise to level up opportunity across Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab) [V]: the country. Work coaches will play a crucial role in With David Attenborough urging pension funds to delivering that agenda and helping people back into move away from fossil fuels, it is hugely welcome that work, so will my hon. Friend join me in paying tribute the Government have joined Labour to incorporate in to the brilliant work coaches of Workington jobcentre, legislation, for the first time ever, climate change and commit to increasing the number of work coaches commitments on pension funds. Now we must translate across the jobcentre network? our ambitions into action. Previously, the Minister has received positively our proposal for a pension fund Will Quince: I too pay tribute to the brilliant work summit. Will he now agree to work with us—across coaches in Workington Jobcentre Plus, who I know party and bringing together the world of pensions to have done an incredible job in particular around partnership save our planet—to organise a cross-party climate change working, and I can point to the Maryport GP surgery summit, because this is the biggest form of investment outreach work, the youth hub, the sector-based work potentially worldwide in climate change pension funds? academy programmes and the virtual mentoring circle by Workington jobcentre. That is brilliant work and, yes, I can absolutely confirm that we are investing Guy Opperman: As the hon. Gentleman knows, we £895 million in doubling the number of work coaches are already working with a large number of pension and Jobcentre Pluses by March 2021. funds and also with companies. We all want to see a safer, better and greener pension system. I am happy Mr Speaker: We now head to Lewisham and the to work with him on an ongoing basis, and I am happy shadow Minister. to reach out on a collaborative basis on this particular issue, which matters to all of us. Vicky Foxcroft (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab) [V]: The £20-a-week uplift to universal credit has been a lifeline Legacy Benefits and Universal Credit for many during the pandemic, yet this vital extra support continues to be denied to legacy benefit claimants, many of whom are disabled. I raised this with Ministers Jo Gideon (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Con): What steps in the Chamber on 11 May, again on 29 June and yet her Department has taken to support an effective transition again on 14 September, each time getting a non-answer. between legacy benefits and universal credit. [907674] To date, the uplift could have given legacy benefit 741 Oral Answers 19 OCTOBER 2020 Oral Answers 742 claimants £600 of extra support. Minister, can we please work, giving them the power to do that, and the way we have a straight answer today: will anything be done to can do that locally in Liverpool is through the flexible rectify this? support fund and other measures.

Will Quince: The hon. Lady is right is that she has Jeff Smith: In Manchester, Withington there are asked this question on three occasions, and she has had 3,000 more people needing to claim unemployment three answers. The legacy benefits were increased by benefits than this time last year, and unemployment is 1.7% in April 2020, following the Government’s rising and will get worse at the end of the furlough announcement to end the benefit freeze. It has always scheme, so there are not 3,000 jobs for those people to been the case that claimants on legacy benefits can go to. Suspending sanctions and welfare conditionality make a claim for universal credit if they believe that was the right thing to do in the crisis, but we are still in they will be better off. There are special arrangements that crisis. Does the Minister not accept that we need to for those in receipt of the severe disability premium, be more supportive and less punitive at the moment? who will be able to make a new claim to UC from January 2021. But it is important—I stress this—that MimsDavies:Ihopethehon.Gentlemanandhisconstituents claimants should check their eligibility before applying will acknowledge that, despite the reintroduction of to universal credit as legacy benefits will end when they conditionality and sanctions, we fully recognise that submit their claim and they will not be able to return to these are difficult times. New jobs are being created in them in the future. the digital, green and logistical sectors that can be Benefit Sanctions and Welfare Conditionality: Covid-19 carried out safely in line with social distancing and public health rules. There is a recognition that in some Kim Johnson (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab): What sectors there will be challenges, while in others there are assessment she has made of the effectiveness of resuming opportunities, but we will always make sure that jobcentres (a) benefits sanctions and (b) welfare conditionality respond suitably to local alert levels and always set that during increased levels of unemployment as a result of conditionality in line with individuals, helping them to the covid-19 outbreak. [907675] progress and always listening to them; if they have a good reason and cannot adhere, we will support them Jeff Smith (Manchester, Withington) (Lab): What and take that individual approach. assessment she has made of the effectiveness of resuming (a) benefits sanctions and (b) welfare conditionality Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op): during increased levels of unemployment as a result of In July,the Government chose to reinstate benefit sanctions the covid-19 outbreak. [907692] and conditionality, against the advice of experts. We are now in the covid second wave, with businesses closing, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work unemployment rising and vacancies halved since March, and Pensions (Mims Davies) [V]: Evidence suggests that but last week the Government said that the clinically active labour market policies can be even more effective extremely vulnerable and those they live with could during recessions. Wewill continue to encourage claimants have their benefits cut if they refuse a job that puts them to prepare and look for work where it is safe to do so. at risk from the virus. Is that really the Government’s Claimants will not be subject to conditionality until policy? Is it not time to end the threats and re-suspend they have agreed a new or updated claimant commitment. benefit sanctions, or are we no longer in this together? We firmly believe the best way to support claimants is through empowered work coaches who engage proactively with claimants to help them identify the options they Mims Davies: I understand the hon. Lady’s point, but need to build on their skills, increase their confidence if someone cannot work and must stay at home, there and return to employment. are ways of getting additional support, and I would urge anybody concerned to use the benefits calculator Kim Johnson: Non-existent jobs. Liverpool has had on gov.uk. I again remind the House that work coaches the second highest unemployment increase in the country will always work to ensure that requirements are reasonable, since March 2020. Our claimant rate has more than always taking into account the claimant’s circumstances doubled from 12,000 to 32,000, and we now have the and the situation in the local labour market, and continuing highest unemployment rate in the country. There are a to adhere to public health advice. Claimants who fail to further 27,000 people on furlough in our closed hospitality meet the conditionality requirements without good reason sector who will either be let go or have to survive on may be sanctioned, but as I say,the rates are extraordinarily 67% of their wages come November. With benefits low—in fact, they have never been lower—and we are sanctions being reintroduced and welfare conditionality determined to help people back into work with the right being reinstated, what evidence do the Government individual support, based on their individual circumstances. have that this is benefiting claimants and preventing a return to the high unemployment of the ’80s? Universal Credit: £20 Covid-19 Payment Mims Davies: I stress to the hon. Lady that sanctions are only used when claimants fail to meet their Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab): What recent conditionality requirements without good reason. As I discussions she has had with the Chancellor of the said in my previous responses, work coaches will work Exchequer on extending the £20 additional universal to ensure that any requirements set are reasonable, credit payment during the covid-19 outbreak. [907677] taking into account the claimant’s circumstances and, crucially, the situation in the local labour market, while Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): If she will increase allowing them to adhere also to public health advice. jobseeker’s allowance by £20 per week in line with We are absolutely determined to help people back into universal credit. [907678] 743 Oral Answers 19 OCTOBER 2020 Oral Answers 744

The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Dr Thérèse Owen Thompson: The Joseph Rowntree Foundation Coffey): The 2020-21 universal credit increase was included estimates that 1.3 million people across Scotland will in a package of welfare measures worth around £9.3 billion lose out if the DWP does not make the £20 increase to this year to help people with the financial consequences universal credit permanent and extend it to legacy of what has happened with the covid-19 pandemic. I benefits. The Resolution Foundation also reports that continue to work with the Treasury on the best ways to one in three working-age families in the so-called red support those receiving benefits. I share the view of my wall constituencies will be £1,000 a year worse off if the right hon. Friend the Chancellor that we must act in a planned cuts to universal credit go ahead. How exactly way that recognises social justice, and that is the motivation is that levelling up? of those on the Government Benches. Justin Tomlinson: I refer the hon. Member the answer Rosie Cooper [V]: Does the Secretary of State still that the Minister for Welfare Delivery has already given. intend to end the suspension of the minimum income The Government have introduced a package of temporary floor for self-employed universal credit claimants, which welfare measures worth £9.3 billion this year to help is due to expire on 13 November? with the financial consequences of the pandemic. Dr Coffey: That policy is still under review. Clearly, Kirsten Oswald [V]: More than ever, with millions this is a matter of discussion, because the regulations do facing unemployment and reduced hours or earnings, come to an end. It is important to recognise that we our social security system must be properly funded. The have different measures happening around different Joseph Rowntree Foundation has rightly pointed out parts of the country. We do need to try to take a that cutting social security takes money out of the national approach to the overall policy, but as ever, we economy by reducing consumer spending. If the Minister trust and empower our work coaches to make the best is not yet convinced that cutting universal credit is decisions for the claimants they are helping, usually to grossly unjust, will he at least consider making this help them get back into work. permanent to stimulate the economy? Mr Speaker: I call the Chair of the Select Committee Justin Tomlinson: As I have just set out, we as a on Work and Pensions, Stephen Timms. Government, through our £9.3 billion-worth of temporary support, which we continue to keep under review, have Stephen Timms: The Select Committee’sreport published shown throughout these unprecedented times that we today calls for new starter payments to claimants of will be flexible and provide the support, including our universal credit to help tide them over the very difficult comprehensive £30 billion plan for jobs, to make sure five-week wait for their first regular benefit payment, that we are standing side by side with those who are and for the £20 a week increase, which the Secretary of navigating the challenges of covid. State has referred to, to be made permanent. How can it possibly be justified for people claiming jobseeker’s Benefit Overpayments: Covid-19 allowance and employment and support allowance to receive £20 a week less than people in identical circumstances Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con): If she will extend the who happen to be claiming universal credit? suspension of benefit deductions for the recovery of universal credit and legacy benefit overpayments during Dr Coffey: On what happened with legacy benefits the covid-19 outbreak. [907680] and universal credit, I think the rationale was set out clearly at the time; in particular, it was also about The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work having a rate that was quite similar to statutory sick pay. and Pensions (Will Quince): There are currently no We will look carefully at the report that the right hon. plans to extend the suspension of benefit deductions. Gentleman and his Committee have issued to us today, Action to restart deductions commenced on 6 July and but I remind him that of course people do not need to should be completed by mid-November. We recognise wait five weeks for a universal credit payment; they can that there will be some people who may be experiencing get a payment within a matter of days, and that payment financial difficulty, and anyone unable to afford the rate is then spread over the entire year. of recovery proposed is encouraged to contact the Covid-19 Temporary Measures Department. Peter Aldous: I am grateful to the Minister for that Owen Thompson (Midlothian) (SNP): What recent reply. These suspensions have provided a lifeline to discussions she has had with the Chancellor of the many vulnerable people over the last six months. Exchequer on extending the temporary measures introduced Unfortunately, there is at present no reason to believe by her Department in response to the covid-19 outbreak. that we will be in a better position in April 2021 than we [907679] were in April 2020, thus I urge my hon. Friend to Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP): What consider extending the suspensions and working with recent discussions she has had with the Chancellor of local authorities to put in place fair local support the Exchequer on extending the temporary measures arrangements that will operate in conjunction with the introduced by her Department in response to the covid-19 national welfare system and complement the Chancellor’s outbreak. [907695] initiatives to get people back to work. The Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work Will Quince: It is right that those claimants who owe (Justin Tomlinson): Earlier this year, we suspended face- the Department money are able to resume payments to to-face assessments. That suspension is still in place reduce their debt. Wecontinue to apply a flexible approach and is kept under review in line with the latest public to recovery and endeavour to recover without causing health guidance. undue financial hardship. Anyone unable to afford the 745 Oral Answers 19 OCTOBER 2020 Oral Answers 746 rate of recovery proposed is encouraged to contact the consistency and we will raise awareness of the support Department so that an affordable rate of repayment can available. Only last week, I met the MND Association be negotiated. In May, we will be launching the breathing and the Minister for Prevention, Public Health and space scheme to help to prevent problem debt and Primary Care as we work at great speed to bring forward provide support to people who fall into that problem debt. those much-needed changes.

Job Market Access Universal Credit: Poverty Reduction Tom Randall (Gedling) (Con): What steps her Department is taking to ensure people of all ages have Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP): What access to the job market. [907682] assessment she has made of the effectiveness of universal credit in reducing levels of poverty. [907686] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mims Davies) [V]: Our plan for jobs The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work includes suitable interventions for people of all ages to and Pensions (Will Quince): The latest statistics from support people back into work, including employment 2018-19 show that the rates and numbers of people in support delivered by our jobcentres, where we are doubling absolute poverty were lower than in 2010. Since those the number of work coaches across our national network. statistics were published, we have injected a further Last week, I held my latest meeting with our older £9.3 billion into our welfare system, including an increase workers champion, alongside employer organisations, to universal credit of up to £1,040 for this financial focused on our fuller working lives agenda and opportunities year. for the over-50s. Alan Brown: The reality is that that is not enough. Tom Randall: In the current pandemic, people of all Thanks to the efforts of the Scottish Government to ages are suddenly being made redundant. I was recently mitigate the worst impacts of austerity, Scotland has contacted by a 57-year-old constituent in Gedling, who the lowest child poverty rates, but the impact of UK is now looking for work and retraining. Does my hon. Government policies means that 4,600 children in my Friend agree that it is particularly important to help this constituency are estimated to be living in poverty, which sector of the population, and what help can I offer to is absolutely shameful. Will the Minister listen to the my constituent to ensure that her skills are utilised? calls of the End Child Poverty coalition and the likes of Macmillan Cancer Support and pledge to keep the Mims Davies: I thank my hon. Friend for raising this £20 a week universal credit uplift to avoid putting more concern in his constituency. I assure him that the families and children into poverty? Government recently announced, in the plan for jobs, new funding to ensure that more people, including our Will Quince: One child in poverty is one child too older workers, get tailored Jobcentre Plus support to many. We at the Department are continuing to work help them to find work and build the skills they need to with Her Majesty’s Treasury and other Government get into new work, including the sector-based work Departments to monitor the evolving economic and academy programme and our new online job-finding labour market situation and identify the most effective support service. On 29 September, the Prime Minister ways to help people to stay in or close to work, both announced a major expansion of post-18 education now and in future. It is important to stress that Her and training to prepare all workers for a post-covid Majesty’s Treasury published a distributional analysis economy, including a lifetime skills guarantee to give that assessed the impact of covid-19 on incomes compared adults the chance to take free college courses by valued with the incomes of working households in May 2020. local employers. That analysis showed that the Government’s interventions Welfare Payments and Needs have supported the poorest households the most.

Dr James Davies (Vale of Clwyd) (Con): What steps People with Disabilities: Employment she is taking to ensure that the welfare payments that people receive meet the needs of the recipient. [907683] Rob Butler (Aylesbury) (Con): What steps she is taking to help people with disabilities into employment. The Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work (Justin Tomlinson): By law, benefit levels must be reviewed [907687] annually to determine if they are at the appropriate The Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work level. The most recent review resulted in the uprating of (Justin Tomlinson): As a Government, we are proud 1.7%. On disability benefits specifically, spending this that 1.3 million more disabled people are in work since year has increased by almost 5% from £19 billion to 2013—a record high. We continue to offer support £20 billion. through the Work and Health, intensive personalised Dr James Davies: Recently, I was pleased to meet my employment support, Disability Confident and Access constituent, Tony Davies, who sadly lives with motor to Work programmes. neurone disease. On behalf of Tony and the MND Association community,will the Minister kindly announce Rob Butler: The disability employment gap in my when he is likely to publish the outcome of the review constituency is 25.4% and there are concerns that it will into access to benefits for the terminally ill? widen as the economy suffers from the impact of covid-19. What reassurance can the Minister give me that disabled Justin Tomlinson: We have been clear, following our people will get the specific help they need to find work comprehensive review, that there will be three themes: —for example, through tailored support or the funding we will change the six-month rule, we will improve of reasonable adjustments on the kickstart scheme? 747 Oral Answers 19 OCTOBER 2020 Oral Answers 748

Justin Tomlinson: It is absolutely the case that Access to prevent high-risk claims from going into payment. to Work is available and works hand in hand with Our investigations have successfully led us to correct schemes such as kickstart so that reasonable adjustments and suspend serious and organised claims fraud in large can be made for disabled employees. I have written to numbers, and we continue to review our processes and Disability Confident leaders to encourage them to sign to anticipate new attacks, which will make it even up to kickstart. harder for people to defraud the taxpayer in the future. Covid-19 Support: Eligibility Sarah Jones: A constituent of mine, a mother of three children, recently had her universal credit and Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con): housing benefit stopped for over two months because of What steps she has taken to support the welfare of a fraudulent claim made in her name. She was completely people ineligible for the Government’s economic support innocent, but she and her young family suffered significant packages during the covid-19 outbreak. [907688] financial hardship.Weknow that benefit fraud, in universal credit in particular, is increasing, and I know of several The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work other MPs who have had similar cases. What will the and Pensions (Will Quince): During the pandemic, several Government do to stop innocent families suffering for economic support measures have been announced by months just because this Government are failing to the Chancellor, including supporting the retention of detect and investigate fraud? 9.6 million jobs through the furlough scheme. Additionally, 2.2 million individuals have claimed £5.6 billion under Will Quince: I would be very happy to meet the hon. the second self-employment income support scheme Lady to receive more details about that individual case, grant announced by the Chancellor as part of his but first let me apologise, because that should not have winter economic plan. The Department has spent happened. In effect, Ministers had to make decisions £9.3 billion on additional support, including the increase about the redeployment of staff in order to process the of the universal credit standard allowance by £20 a unprecedented number of claims, which went up from week. Together, those measures provide a safety net for 2.2 million to 5.7 million claims. That meant deploying almost everyone who needs it, but eligibility for the staff away from counter-fraud and into the processing different support packages is set out clearly on gov.uk. of claims, but I am pleased to say that that has now changed and more staff are going back into fraud. We Mr Davis [V]: Small businesses account for about have to take fraud incredibly seriously, because it is 13 million people employed, which is about 60% of the individuals such as the hon. Lady’s constituent who are workforce, and many of them are in trouble. When I often the target of serious organised crime. spoke this weekend to ForgottenLtd, which represents people who are not in receipt of benefit, it told me that Employment Trends its latest survey showed that 70% of its members receive no benefit whatsoever. Do the Government intend to do Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) something about that? If so, will the Minister meet me (Lab): What recent assessment she has made of trends to discuss the criteria for improvement? in the level of employment. [907693] Will Quince: I know that my right hon. Friend has The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work campaigned hard on the subject. The question may be and Pensions (Mims Davies) [V]: The latest official statistics better directed at the Chancellor of the Exchequer or show the level of employment at 32.6 million. We Ministers from Her Majesty’s Treasury, as I know he recognise that there are difficult times ahead, but our has also done. ambitious £30 billion plan for jobs will support people Universal credit is an in-work and out-of-work benefit. during this next phase of our recovery as we push to It is also available for those who are self-employed. As build back better and greener. We are working with the Secretary of State set out in her letter to the Work other Government Departments, external organisations and Pensions Committee last month, we plan to proceed and our local partners to support people into work, to with the reinstatement of the minimum income floor, react to changes in local labour markets and to work and claimants will be contacted as it is reinstated for with our local Jobcentre Plus provision to help communities them. Notwithstanding my right hon. Friend’s point, to thrive. more than £13 billion of support has already been Emma Hardy: When one of my constituents, who was provided for more than 2.6 million self-employed individuals working as a cleaner, was recently furloughed, she was through the first two stages of the self-employment recommended to move to universal credit and away income support scheme and the scheme has now been from working tax credit. I wrote to the Department on extended. 7 July and again on 7 August. I have just had a reply, on Benefit Fraud Investigations 12 October, telling me that because my constituent earned £666.21 in a month, she was entitled to nothing Sarah Jones (Croydon Central) (Lab): What steps her whatsoever from universal credit. Not only that, but she Department is taking to review the effectiveness of had to repay the advance loan that she had had at the benefit fraud investigations. [907689] beginning. This system is failing her, and she is in a desperate situation. When will the Government look at The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work allowing people to return to working tax credit and and Pensions (Will Quince): The Department does move away from this unfair system of universal credit? not take benefit fraud lightly, and we are committed to using the full range of powers and penalties at our Mims Davies: I thank the hon. Lady for raising what disposal. As part of our response to covid-19, we have sounds like a concerning situation for that family. We established our integrated risk and intelligence service recognise that we are currently in an unusual and challenging 749 Oral Answers 19 OCTOBER 2020 Oral Answers 750 economic period, and I am sure that the Minister for continue to do whatever it takes to make sure we are welfare delivery, the Under-Secretary of State for Work reaching people of all ages. In particular, I want to and Pensions, my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester make sure that people who may newly be looking for (Will Quince), will have taken note of that particular support from the welfare state use the Government-funded case. I am sure we will be able to look at that once again, help to claim service, administered by Citizens Advice. and I thank the hon. Lady for raising the matter. [Interruption.] Child Maintenance Service: Effectiveness Mr Speaker: Order—apologies, Minister. Let me just say to the hon. Member for Stockton North (Alex Sir Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): Cunningham) that there was not time to call him. There What recent assessment she has made of the effectiveness was another Member before him on the call list, so of the Child Maintenance Service in collecting child there was not a chance that I could have called him maintenance. [907694] before moving on; I do apologise. If he wants to hang around, I will try to get him into topical questions if he The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work wishes to speak. and Pensions (Mims Davies) [V]: This Government have made clear their commitment to supporting both paying Duncan Baker: I was pleased to see my right hon. and receiving parents, especially during this difficult Friend’s announcement that almost 1 million pensioners period. Around three quarters of paying parents are in receipt of pension credit will be receiving £140 off paying towards their liability. The Child Maintenance their energy bills through the warm home discount Service will continue to pursue all cases where appropriate, scheme. My constituency has a very elderly demographic, and I stress that anyone found to be abusing the system so that is a great lifeline for so many. Will she confirm risks being subject to the full extent of our enforcement that, alongside it, the Government will continue to powers. make winter fuel payments to support our pensioners this winter? Sir Robert Neill: I am sorry to say that the Minister’s words do not sit with the experience of some of my Dr Coffey: My hon. Friend is absolutely correct, and constituents, who feel that the Child Maintenance Service I praise him for raising this issue on behalf of the many has failed them in pursuing outstanding claims. I shall people he represents. This Government are committed give the House one example. In an appeal against a to tackling fuel poverty, particularly among pensioners, CMS decision to the tribunal in February,it was discovered and will continue to deliver winter fuel payments this that a private pension had not been disclosed. The CMS year. I was pleased by the work done by my Department should therefore have recouped the shortfall, but there to make sure that those on pension credit, including in was no contact until May. When the CMS was asked your constituency, Mr Speaker, received the £140 from how much it would recoup for my constituent, she again the warm home discount scheme, without lifting a finger. heard nothing until she got a letter saying that the CMS was writing off historic debt and would not pursue it. Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op): That is letting that person down, not supporting them. As the Government place millions of people across the country under new covid restrictions, they will be asking Mims Davies: I thank my hon. Friend for raising this many people to undergo significant cuts to their income. issue, and I stress that those found abusing the system Last week, the Prime Minister said that due to the job are subject to the full extent of our enforcement powers. support scheme and universal credit The CMS will pursue these people, where appropriate. “nobody gets less than 93% of their current income.”—[Official Our key partners are in communication with us to make Report, 14 October 2020; Vol. 682, c. 368.] sure that we secure the appropriate court dates for cases Unfortunately, that is just completely wrong. The reality impacted by the covid-19 pandemic and that we are is that a person employed by a business that the Government establishing our full and normal range of enforcement are ordering to close could still lose a third of their income, services. Where payments have been missed we are and for an unspecified length of time.Their rent, mortgages taking action to re-establish compliance, and I am and food bills will not be any lower, so how does the happy to look at the issue for him. Secretary of State expect those people to get by?

Several hon. Members rose— Dr Coffey: The Government have taken unprecedented action in the design of their new schemes, recognising Mr Speaker: Unfortunately, we have run out of time, that some businesses right around the country are still so we are going straight on to topicals. experiencing a loss in demand. As a consequence, we have developed two different schemes, one of which is Topical Questions “a third, a third, a third” in terms of helping people with their cost of living. Where we believe, in conjunction [907729] Duncan Baker (North Norfolk) (Con): If she with local leadership, that it is the right thing for certain will make a statement on her departmental responsibilities. sectors to be closed in areas, the two-thirds support of wages is important. Of course if people do come under The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Dr Thérèse a certain threshold, they may well be eligible for UC, Coffey): The Government’s new job support scheme which would help top up their ongoing income during being launched next month to protect viable jobs and these difficult times. businesses that are facing lower demand is yet another part of how my Department and the Government are Jonathan Reynolds: Secretary of State, this is important, standing ready to try to help people stay in work and because it is the barrier to additional restrictions being to prepare to get back into work. [Interruption.] We will introduced. As the Government know, people who are 751 Oral Answers 19 OCTOBER 2020 Oral Answers 752 eligible for the job support scheme and may be losing grant is there in the benefits—that is exactly what they only a third of their income are, comparatively, the are there to do—so I do not see how we will be responding lucky ones, as people in receipt of UC or jobseeker’s positively to the Committee’s report in that regard. allowance will be left on just a fraction of their current income. With that in mind, I have a straightforward [907730] Owen Thompson (Midlothian) (SNP): question for her: it is clear that we are not going to be Applications for the new self-isolation payment are to out of this crisis by April next year,so will the Government be launched last week, but there is a real risk that some do the right thing and scrap their plans to cut UC to an people may not apply for the £500 because of tax even lower amount next April? concerns. Scotland’s Cabinet Secretary for Social Security and Older People has written to the Chancellor calling for an income tax exemption for the payments, similar Dr Coffey: What is different from the regime we had to the exemption for the test and trace support payment earlier in the year is that then the strong message was scheme in England. Will the Secretary of State urge the very much for people to stay at home and retail was Chancellor to exempt the new self-isolation payments closed, along with a number of different sectors. That is from tax? not the case anymore: we have now had to intervene in a much more limited number of sectors, often in conjunction Dr Coffey: Tax matters are a matter for the Chancellor. with the local leadership. As a consequence, we will [907731] Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): I hope continue to review the best ways to support people next month to introduce a ten-minute rule Bill on the through the welfare system, as well as through the plan regulation of supported housing. I am particularly for jobs and the measures that the Chancellor has motivated by concern that unscrupulous landlords are introduced. moving into the sector so that they can take advantage of higher housing benefit rates. There is obviously an [907732] Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) overlap with universal credit, so I wondered whether (Con): With forecasts showing that there may be as the Secretary of State has had any conversations many as 1 million young people without a job, I urge with her colleagues in the Ministry of Housing, the Minister to think outside the box. I have long Communities and Local Government about the fact argued that we should use graduates and gap-year that we badly need to regulate the sector because too students to help some of those pupils who have missed many people are being exploited. out on schooling to catch up. Can we devise, with the Department for Education, a scheme to pay them a The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work variation of JSA to provide such a service, or at least and Pensions (Will Quince): The hon. Lady is absolutely offer greater flexibility for claimants who volunteer to right—this issue is a concern for me and has been for help in such a way or to take the pressure off other some time. I am working closely with my counterpart at public services? MHCLG and would be delighted to meet the hon. Lady to discuss progress. Dr Coffey: One element of the kickstart scheme, a [907737] Laura Farris (Newbury) (Con): The kickstart £2 billion investment in the future of our young people, scheme has been enthusiastically taken up by employers is designed to help people to get on the first rung of the in West Berkshire, but of course it is time limited and ladder with a proper job. It is a way for those people comes with no guarantees. What steps is my right hon. who have recently left school or university and are at Friend the Secretary of State taking to ensure that risk of long-term unemployment to get experience and kickstarter placements lead to permanent employment, financing, which does not just have to be through either with the placement employer or in the same sector? private organisations and could be through local Dr Coffey: My hon. Friend is right to point out that government or charitable or other sectors. It is a specific the kickstart placements are six-month-long jobs, but way to ensure that those people get not only a job but the skills that people will learn and the experience they the extra training and wraparound support that they will gain will put them in good stead to secure future need to help them further on in their lives. employment. We are investing in our young people in recognition of this difficult time, but of course if they Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) [V]: For some do not secure a permanent job at the end of that time, the SNP has led the campaign to end the universal time—although the placements may be a gateway to credit five-week wait. We think that is best done by the apprenticeships and similar—we will continue to support introduction of grants, so we welcome today’s Work them until they find a job. and Pensions Committee report. We also agree with the idea of renaming advances as “new claim loans” to [907738] Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) make clearer what they actually are. Will the Secretary (Con): The Knaresborough Connectors community group of State look favourably on the report’s findings and and Knaresborough chamber of trade are working accept its recommendations? together to build a scheme to enable participation in the kickstart scheme for smaller businesses in the area. It is good work and I am keen to help it. Will my right hon. Dr Coffey: I will look carefully at the report. Select Friend the Secretary of State be encouraging the Committee members will know that I have spoken to Department to work with local community organisations them on previous occasions, as have other Ministers, to to ensure that all areas, urban and rural, and all businesses, explain that advances are a way to spread the payment small and large, can access the benefits of kickstart? of universal credit over a year—in fact, in future it will be over two years, if that is how long people want to The Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work spread that initial support—and it is not our intention (Justin Tomlinson): My hon. Friend is always a champion in any way to introduce a grant at the beginning. The of his local organisations and constituents. Yes, absolutely; 753 Oral Answers 19 OCTOBER 2020 Oral Answers 754 many local authorities, charities and organisations, such those is through the Ministry of Housing, Communities as North Yorkshire County Council, have agreed to act and Local Government, which has local funds that have as gateways or have submitted bids for funding. been topped up by this Government to help with local welfare issues. [907735] Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): Many disabled people have lost carers and are struggling to employ [907740] Selaine Saxby (North Devon) (Con) [V]: Will replacements during the covid crisis. This can mean my right hon. Friend join me in thanking the exceptional that they have lost vital support in applying for team at Jobcentre Plus in Barnstaple for their work to benefits. I spoke to a constituent today who flagged up support the vastly increased number of people in North that there is nowhere on the system for people to Devon looking for work at this time? I extend an indicate that they have a high support need, so that invitation to her to come to my constituency to thank extra care is taken in dealing with their application. She them at first hand. has missed the benefit deadline because of that. Will Ministers look into this matter and ensure that we help Dr Coffey: My hon. Friend is right to praise hard-working disabled people when they apply for benefits? DWP staff at her local Jobcentre Plus and across the network. The team in Barnstaple have worked with the Justin Tomlinson: The hon. Gentleman raises an National Careers Service to help with interview technique important point. Our forthcoming Green Paper will and build transferable skills among people who become look specifically at the importance of advocacy in the unemployed, and great work is already under way at the system, and at increasing it. That need should have been North Devon youth support hub in Bideford and identified at the initial application. If he sends through Barnstaple. I look forward to visiting the south-west. the details, I will be happy to ensure that the claimant is As she knows, the DWP jobcentre is a covid-secure not lost from the system. environment and I look forward to joining her there in due course. [907739] Sir Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): A number of my constituents are receiving letters [907744] Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter out of the blue saying that the Child Maintenance Ross) (LD) [V]: I, too, am greatly concerned about the Service is writing off unpaid payments as part of a ability of the Child Maintenance Service to deliver review of historical debt. Will my right hon. Friend tell results. I wonder whether the Minister would be kind me the basis for the review, what the criteria are for the enough to meet me to discuss a constituent who has cases, how many are involved, and by what means been unable to collect an unbelievable amount of arrears personal advance notice of the changes is being given to over the past decade, estimated at £30,000. the people concerned? Dr Coffey: My noble Friend Baroness Stedman-Scott is the Minister responsible for the Child Maintenance Dr Coffey: My understanding is that the policy relates Service. She is more than happy to meet colleagues who to people who have had child maintenance arrangements are having particular difficulties with paying parents for a very long time. There comes a point when there is who are refusing to cough up. an element of understanding the different debts. My hon. Friend will be aware that, in a way, this is a very [907746] Jeff Smith (Manchester, Withington) (Lab): odd arrangement, with the state effectively becoming My constituent Joseph made a claim for industrial the arbiter between two parents. The only people who injuries disablement benefit in January. His assessment, lose are the children. That is why I encourage everybody along with all the other new assessments, was postponed who has a responsibility towards their children—currently because of covid, so he is living with the extra costs that 111,000 children are owed £187 million by parents who come with having an industrial disease, but he does not refuse to pay up—to get on and do the right thing by have the extra benefits he needs. Can the Secretary of them. We should not end up having to rely on the state State please urgently resume IIDB assessments? to arbitrate between two parents.1 The Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work [907741] Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Justin Tomlinson): I am very much aware of this. As the (Lab): Like many schools across the country, a school hon. Gentleman will understand, we suspended face-to-face in my constituency has had to close with less than assessments across all disability benefits following the 24 hours’ notice, leaving working parents having to care public health guidance. We are working as quickly as we for their children at home. What discussions have can to roll out telephone assessments for IIDB where Ministers had with their colleagues in Health and possible, and as soon as it is safe to do so, we will return Education to see whether the £500 self-isolation to face-to-face assessments. payment can be extended to those working parents? Mr Speaker: In order to allow the safe exit of hon. Dr Coffey: The £500 self-isolation payment administered Members participating in this item of business, and the by local councils was devised to achieve compliance safe arrival of those participating in the next, I am with public health guidance. That is why the Department suspending the House for three minutes. of Health and Social Care is leading on the matter. I am conscious that there may be local arrangements that 3.30 pm need to be addressed. Often, the best way to tackle Sitting suspended.

1.[Official Report, 16 November 2020, Vol. 684, c. 2MC.] 755 19 OCTOBER 2020 EU Exit: Negotiations and the 756 Joint Committee EU Exit: Negotiations and the and sovereign country now. We have tried to be clear Joint Committee from the start that we would not be able to reach an agreement inconsistent with that status. I do not think 3.34 pm that we could be accused of keeping that a secret. Yet the proposals that the EU has discussed with us in The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Minister recent weeks, which it presents as compromises, are for the Cabinet Office (Michael Gove): With your simply not consistent with our new sovereign status— permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to update the certainly not yet. House on the Government’snegotiations with the European While I do not doubt that many on the EU side are Union on our future trading relationship and also the well intentioned, we cannot accept the negotiators’ work of the UK/EU Joint Committee established under proposals that would require us to provide full, permanent the withdrawal agreement. access to our fishing waters, with quotas substantially First, on the talks on the new trade agreement, we unchanged to those that were imposed by EU membership. had hoped to conclude a Canada-style free trade agreement We cannot operate a state aid system which is essentially before the transition period ends on 31 December this the same as the EU’s, with great discretion given to the year but, as things stand, that will not now happen. We EU to retaliate against us if it thought that we were remain absolutely committed to securing a Canada-style deviating from it. More broadly, we cannot accept an FTA, but there does need to be a fundamental change arrangement that means that we stay in step with laws in approach from the EU if the process is to get back on that have been proposed and adopted by the EU across track. I have come to the House at the first available areas of critical national importance. opportunity to explain why and how we have reached In a nutshell, we have been asking for no more than this point. what has been offered in trade agreements to other We have been clear since the summer that we saw global trading countries, such as Canada—terms that, 15 October—last Thursday—as the target date for reaching of course, the EU said last year it had no difficulty an agreement with the EU. The Prime Minister and the offering to us. We are not even asking for special favours Commission President Ursula von der Leyen agreed on reflecting our 45 years as a member state—during which 3 October that our negotiating team should work intensively we paid in every day more than we took out—quite the to bridge the remaining gaps between us, and we made reverse. But even if this new arrangement is impossible clear that we were willing to talk every day. But I have to for the EU, I must inform the House that we will be report to the House that this intensification was not leaving on 31 December on Australian-style terms and forthcoming. The EU was willing to conduct negotiations trading on the basis of WTO rules. only on fewer than half the days available and would With just 10 weeks left until the end of the transition not engage on all of the outstanding issues. Moreover, period, I have to emphasise that that is not my preferred the EU refused to discuss legal texts in any area, as it outcome and nor is it the Prime Minister’s. We recognise has done since the summer. Indeed, it is almost incredible that there will be some turbulence, but we have not to our negotiators that we have reached this point in the come so far to falter now, when we are so close to negotiations without any common legal texts of any kind. reclaiming our sovereignty. We have to be in control of On 15 October,the EU Heads of State and Government our own borders and our fishing grounds. We have to gathered for the European Council. The conclusions of set our own laws. We have to be free to thrive as an that Council reaffirmed the EU’s original negotiating independent free trading nation, embracing the freedoms mandate. They dropped a reference to intensive talks that flow as a result. So it is important that I turn to the that had been in the draft and they declared that all— preparations that we are now intensifying for the end of all—future moves in the negotiation had to be made by the transition period. These apply whether we have a the UK. Although some attempts were made to soften free trade agreement or otherwise, of course. that message by some EU leaders, the European Council I am not blithe or blasé about the challenges ahead, reaffirmed those conclusions as authoritative on Friday. particularly given the additional problems that we have That unfortunate sequence of events has, in effect, dealing with the covid-19 pandemic. However, leaving ended the trade negotiations because it leaves no basis the EU on Australian terms is an outcome for which we on which we can actually find agreement. There is no are increasingly well prepared. Ever since the UK decided point in negotiations proceeding as long as the EU sticks it would leave the single market and the customs union with that position. Such talks would be meaningless on 31 December, Government and businesses alike have and would take us no nearer to finding a workable solution. been working hard to prepare for the new procedures That is the situation we now face, and that is why the that were the inevitable result. I congratulate businesses Prime Minister had to make it clear on 16 October that on the resourcefulness they have shown so far. We want the EU had refused to negotiate seriously for much of to work with them so that they continue responding as the past month or so. The EU had now, at the European energetically, flexibly and imaginatively as possible to Council, explicitly ruled out a free trade agreement with the challenges of change. We also want to work with us, like the one that it has with Canada, and therefore them to prepare for the opportunities ahead, including this country should get ready for 1 January 2021 with those stemming from our new free trade deals, such as arrangements that are more like Australia’s, based on the agreement with Japan struck by the Secretary of simple principles of global free trade. State for International Trade, which, of course, grants Now, if the EU wants to change that situation—and I us far more favourable access to the world’s third biggest devoutly hope it will—it needs to make a fundamental economy than we had as an EU member. change in its approach and make clear it has done so. It I would like to put on record my particular thanks to has to be serious about talking intensively on all issues the road haulage industry, customs intermediaries and and trying to reach a conclusion, and I hope it will. But others for their constructive engagement with Government, it also needs to accept that it is dealing with an independent including at our extensive roundtable last week. 757 EU Exit: Negotiations and the 19 OCTOBER 2020 EU Exit: Negotiations and the 758 Joint Committee Joint Committee [Michael Gove] In his statement on Friday, the Prime Minister looked ahead to 2021 as a year of recovery and renewal This week, the Prime Minister and I will be speaking when this Government will be focused on tackling again to business leaders to discuss preparations for life covid-19 and building back better. We are getting ready outside the EU. We will continue to listen to their to do now what the British people asked of us: to forge concerns, and we will redouble our efforts to help them our own path and not to acquiesce to anyone else’s to adjust and prosper. The XO Cabinet Committee—the agenda. On the negotiations, our door is not closed. It EU Exit Operations Committee—meets daily and will remains ajar, and I very much hope that the EU will intensify its operational focus on business readiness. We fundamentally change its position, but, come what continue to work closely with our partners in the devolved may, on 31 December, we will take back control. I Administrations because we want to ensure that every commend this statement to the House. part of the UK is ready for the end of the transition period. In these final 10 weeks, we are intensifying our public 3.45 pm information campaign. Every firm will find the information Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab): I thank the Minister it needs on new rules which govern trade between for advance sight of his statement this afternoon. Britain and the EU at gov.uk/transition. Today, HMRC is writing to 200,000 traders that do business with the At the last general election, the Prime Minister said EU to reinforce their understanding of the new customs that he had an oven-ready deal ready to go. The withdrawal and tax rules. We are also putting in place IT systems to agreement was the starter course, but we are still waiting help goods flow across borders. We are giving business for the main meal: a trade agreement with the European access to customs professionals to help with new ways Union. At the weekend, the right hon. Gentleman was of working and we have also planned how to fast-track reminded of some of his previous remarks in 2016 when vital goods in the first few weeks to get around EU he assured the country that the one thing that will not bureaucracies. We have already published and indeed change is our ability to trade freely with Europe. Even updated our border operating model. Wehave announced at this late stage, Labour expects the Government to £705 million-worth of investment in jobs, infrastructure reach an agreement with the European Union that and technology at the border. We have also strengthened honours that commitment. It is a question of competence our maritime security to protect our fishing fleets and and it is a question of trust; it is what this Government safeguard our seas. promised the British people. In addition to the steps we are taking, we are also Of course we were supposed to have a deal by now. continuing our work with the EU in the Withdrawal This is the third deadline that the Prime Minister has set Agreement Joint Committee. I would like to update the himself, and it is the third deadline that the Prime House on its latest meeting, which took place earlier Minister has missed. Initially, he said that a deal with this morning. Coming only three weeks after the last the EU would be sorted by July. Then he said by meeting, I am pleased to report that in this forum the September, and then he said by last week. Will the right approach from the EU is very constructive. There is a hon. Gentleman explain to the House why the Government clear imperative on both sides to find solutions and we find it so hard to meet their own deadlines and so hard remain committed to working collaboratively with the to achieve their own promises? EU through the Joint Committee process. Yesterday, when the Minister toured the television At our last meeting in Brussels I agreed with my studios, he was asked what the chances were now of co-chair, Vice-President Šefcˇovicˇ, that we would intensify securing a deal, and he said it was less than two thirds. discussions to implement the withdrawal agreement, Can he tell businesses and this House the current probability, primarily around citizens’rights and the Northern Ireland given that he has just said that events have, in effect, protocol. Our officials have since held numerous sessions ended the trade negotiations? Over the past three days, and today in London I reiterated the UK’s commitment we have heard more posturing than solutions, more to upholding all our obligations under both the withdrawal excuses and explanations. It is time for the Government agreement and the Belfast agreement. We agreed that to take responsibility. we will publish a joint update on citizens’ rights and I Of course everyone needs to prepare as best they can, am pleased to confirm that almost 4 million EU citizens but it is a bit rich for the Government to lecture businesses in the UK have now received status under our scheme. on getting ready when the Government cannot even tell We have also discussed our work to implement the them what they are getting ready for. Let us be clear: if Northern Ireland protocol. We are taking steps to the talks have run out of road, many industries will face implement new agrifood arrangements. We also prohibitive tariffs—from 10% for exporting cars to at acknowledge the EU’s concerns about appropriate least 40% for exporting lamb—to Britain’s biggest market monitoring of implementation. We now have a better in just 10 weeks’ time. I ask again: is that what the understanding of its requests and the reasoning behind Government want businesses to get ready for, and is it them. We have confirmed that the specialised committee even possible for those businesses to do business on will work intensively to ensure that we can make progress those terms? in this area, and with respect to Gibraltar and the The Minister will recall that I raised the concerns of sovereign base issues. the car manufacturing industry on 1 October at Cabinet A lot remains to be resolved before the end of December, Office questions and the possibility of tariffs, and also but we have made substantial progress on implementation. on rules of origin. He agreed to meet the automotive I look forward to further engagement with Vice-President industry and trade unions. The Society of Motor Šefcˇovicˇin the weeks ahead. I want to put on record my Manufacturers and Traders and Unite followed up with personal appreciation for the constructive tone and the a joint letter on the same day—1 October. However, I pragmatic spirit with which he and his team have am now informed that, 18 days later, that letter has not approached our discussions. been replied to and that meeting has not happened. At 759 EU Exit: Negotiations and the 19 OCTOBER 2020 EU Exit: Negotiations and the 760 Joint Committee Joint Committee what point did the British Government give up on Michael Gove: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her British industry, and when will the Minister be meeting questions. With respect to an oven-ready deal, the those businesses? It is all well and good to say prepare, withdrawal agreement was concluded happily and voted but he cannot even be bothered to get round a table on by the House of Commons, so we had a deal—a deal with them. I ask again: what are they supposed to be which many on the Labour Benches opposed, but a deal preparing for and what support are the Government which means that our destiny is certain and that we are giving them? fulfilling the wishes of the British people. In the same In his statement today, the Minister thanked the road way as 52% of the population of the United Kingdom haulage industry for its efforts, but you will also remember, and 53% of the population of Leeds West—her Mr Speaker, that, at Cabinet Office questions, he said constituency—voted to leave, we will leave. We are that the road haulage industry had been far from honouring our commitment to the British people. constructive, so I welcome the thanks that he gave them The hon. Lady was kind enough to refer to some of today. Earlier this month, I was with a haulage firm in the past statements I have made that were quoted on the Hull with my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston television briefly at the weekend. I have to say—and this upon Hull West and Hessle (Emma Hardy). It was a is no reflection on her—that if she is going to talk about fantastic business, established more than 100 years ago, past statements, she had better clear that with the yet it does not know how many of its fleet of lorries will Leader of the Opposition, who in the past has favoured be able to operate in the EU come 1 January. How are EU membership, then said he would accept the referendum they supposed to prepare for that? result, then said that we needed a second referendum in Ministers have blithely referred to leaving with no order to satisfy the first, then said that we should have trade deal as trading on “Australian terms”. This morning, an extension of our membership of the European Union the Business Secretary was pressed on the difference and the transition period, and is now silent on all those between an Australian deal and leaving with no deal, questions. and he admitted that it was “semantics”—semantics! Mr Speaker: Order. This is a statement on Government They can call it no deal. They can call it an Australia-style policy, not the policy of the Opposition. deal. They can call it a Narnia deal, as far as I am concerned, but let us be honest about what that means Michael Gove: I was merely pointing out, Mr Speaker, and how damaging it is for this country. [Interruption.] that we had an oven-ready deal, and from Labour we Someone says from a sedentary position that it is not had an indigestible dog’s breakfast and a Leader of the damaging—10% tariffs on British cars being exported Opposition who will not eat his words. to the European Union is damage; 40% tariffs on lamb The hon. Lady asked about the various deadlines. being exported to the European Union is damage. If Those are deadlines that the UK Government have set any Member wants to stand up and tell their constituents, but that the EU has not met. In any negotiation, both British industry and British farming that that is not sides have to honour their commitments. As I pointed damaging, they can be my guest, but it is not the truth. out in my statement—and she did not, of course, The Prime Minister promised that the UK would acknowledge this—we were available to talk every day “prosper mightily” without a trade deal with the EU. in the weeks preceding the European Council, and the Given that confidence, will the Government publish European Union was not. But our firmness on this their full economic impact assessment of the implications proposition is now bearing fruit. As we were exchanging if no trade deal is achieved, broken down by industry thoughts across the Dispatch Box earlier, my colleague and by the regions and nations of our United Kingdom? David Frost was in conversation with Michel Barnier. I That may at least help us to understand what we are now believe it is the case that Michel Barnier has agreed supposed to be planning for. both to the intensification of talks and to working on legal texts—a reflection of the strength and resolution While the Government lecture businesses about being that our Prime Minister showed, in stark contrast with match-fit, their own preparations are badly off pace. In the approach that the Opposition have often enjoined late July, the Government announced £50 million of us to take, of simply accepting what the EU wants at funding for customs intermediaries. Could the Minister every stage. update the House on how much of that fund businesses have drawn down and give us the latest figures for the The hon. Lady asked about preparation. It is absolutely number of customs agents trained up to be ready for right to say that we should talk to the automotive 1 January? The Government have given authorisation sector. That is why, as I pointed out in my statement, the for a number of lorry parks, so how many of these Prime Minister has a business roundtable tomorrow “inland border facilities”, as the Minister likes to call with business representative organisations. She also asked them, have had work started on them, and how many about inland sites. I can confirm that we will have two are now completed? Can he list how many of the IT inland sites at Ashford—Sevington and Waterbook—and systems needed are on track and whether the crucial one at Ebbsfleet, one at Thames Gateway, one at North goods vehicle movement system has been tested with all Weald, one at Birmingham, one at Warrington, one at haulage businesses? He mentioned business preparedness. Holyhead, one in south Wales and another at White What is happening in terms of security and data sharing? Cliffs in Dover. All those sites will bring extra jobs and investment to the UK as we forge a confident path ahead. This Government must deliver a deal that provides guarantees and safeguards on workers’rights,environmental Mrs Theresa May (Maidenhead) (Con): I thank my standards and animal welfare, protects jobs and does right hon. Friend for his statement. The Government nothing to jeopardise the Good Friday agreement. That was appear resigned to the prospect of no deal, yet one area all promised last year. Time is short, so my message to the in which they should not be resigned to the prospect of Government is blunt: stop posturing, start negotiating and no deal is security. I note that my right hon. Friend deliver the deal that you promised to the British people. made no mention of security in his statement this 761 EU Exit: Negotiations and the 19 OCTOBER 2020 EU Exit: Negotiations and the 762 Joint Committee Joint Committee [Mrs Theresa May] shifting goalposts. I have to say that I would love to see that circus performance, but I suspect that I will have to afternoon, and the Prime Minister made no reference to wait, because the SNP conference has I think been security in his letter to parliamentarians on 16 October. cancelled this year. Will my right hon. Friend confirm that, if the UK walks The second thing I would like to say in response to away with no deal, then our police and other law the hon. Member is that he refers disparagingly to this enforcement agencies will no longer have the necessary deal as a “Mongolian deal”. I do not know what access to databases such as PNR—passenger name Mongolia has ever done to offend the people of Scotland, records—to be able to continue to identify and catch but we in the UK value our friendship with the people criminals and potential terrorists in order to keep us safe? of Ulaanbaatar and others. Certainly, we do not believe that this looking down on other peoples in other nations Michael Gove: My right hon. Friend makes a very is appropriate. It may be appropriate for the atavistic important point about security. I would say three things. nationalism which some SNP supporters avail themselves The first thing to say is that significant progress has of, but those of us who believe in the Union, believe in been made in respect of security co-operation, but it is friendship among all nations. the case that the EU is insisting that, before we have On the hon. Member’s final point about working access to systems such as the Schengen information together,I absolutely agree. The devolved Administrations system II, that we have to accept the jurisdiction of the must work with us and we must work with them to European Court of Justice. We cannot accept that. make sure that, as we leave the European Union, the The second thing I would say is that there are many communities of all parts of the United Kingdom prosper. areas in which we can co-operate more effectively to One of the things I do regret is that, even though I value safeguard our borders outside the European Union my close working with his colleague the Cabinet Secretary than we ever could inside. Through a variety of methods for Rural Economy and Tourism, Fergus Ewing, and arrangements open to us, open to Border Force and unfortunately, Scottish Government policy would mean open to our security and intelligence services, we can that we would be back in the common fisheries policy. intensify the security that we give to the British people. That would mean the people of Scotland’s coastal The third thing I would say to my right hon. Friend is communities would lose out. I am sure he would not that I agree with her.When it comes to everything—security want that, and that is why I hope we can continue to and other matters—no deal is better than a bad deal. work together to reap the benefits of the sea of opportunity that Brexit will bring. Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP) [V]: So here we go. The coveted no deal is now within Sir Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Woodford touching distance. The dance of the no-deal seven veils Green) (Con): I thank my right hon. Friend for his is now down to its Brexit underwear. The easiest deal in statement. I think he is right, because it was clear in the history will now mean the UK leaving on Mongolian whole agreement that both sides needed to negotiate in terms. The absolute rubbish we had to listen to about good faith with a view to reaching an agreement. Yet it oven-ready deals and holding all the cards is now just has been quite clear throughout that, for example, the the stuff of grotesque bad jokes. And whose fault is it? refusal of those on the EU side to engage on financial Well, not the Minister’s or that of this cabal of Tory services, which are 80% of our economy, but their anti-EU obsessives. It is all the fault of these Europeans. determination to get a deal on the majority of theirs, How dare they ask the Tories to stand by what they which is trade in agri-products, is not good faith. How agreed, and how dare they ask for a level playing field exactly does he intend to go forward with regard to the and to retain the integrity of the single market! The EU problems in the withdrawal agreement that will now be must have the patience of saints to try to negotiate with outstanding even if we make no trade deal? these clown shoe-wearing goalpost shifters. As we have just heard, the EU has once again offered to have Michael Gove: My right hon. Friend makes two very intensive talks, so it is back in your court, Minister. important points, the first of which relates to the approach that the European Union has taken. As I mentioned, The Minister somehow expects Scotland to go along even while I have been at the Dispatch Box it has been with this disaster. Well there is a saying that he will reported that there has been a constructive move on the know as a proud Scot, which will be Scotland’s response part of the European Union, and I welcome that. to this: he can go awa’ an’ bile his heid. Independence is Obviously we need to make sure that we work on the now the settled will of the Scottish people, with 58% of basis of the proposed intensification that it proposes. I Scots now in favour, so here is a proposition for the prefer to look forward in optimism rather than necessarily Minister: why does he not just go off and get his no-deal to look back in anger. However, as he says, the difficult Brexit if that is what England indeed wants, and in period that we have had over the past two weeks has Scotland we can now secure our independence—what been the result of some on the EU side not being as our people want—which will allow us to design our energetic as we have been in trying to reach agreement. own future European relationship? Surely there is nothing He also makes an important point about making sure wrong with that. He gets what he wants and we get what that we iron out all the difficulties in the withdrawal we want. Will he agree to that at last, and say goodbye agreement. That is part of my role in the Joint Committee. to his rotten Union and his rotten no-deal Brexit? I am grateful to him and to others for the advice they have offered as to how we should approach these difficult Michael Gove: As ever, I am in awe of the hon. issues. Member’s ability, in a very short period, to bring so many metaphors together in what one can only describe Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab): Despite what the as a car crash of similes. The Government, according to Minister said in his opening remarks, it is quite clear him, is wearing seven veils and clown shoes while also that negotiations are continuing, and the war of words 763 EU Exit: Negotiations and the 19 OCTOBER 2020 EU Exit: Negotiations and the 764 Joint Committee Joint Committee now needs to stop. Both sides need to get together and knows that a Canada deal is possible if he agrees the agree a deal, recognising that both will have to compromise. protections that are required for workers’ rights and our On preparations for 1 January, given that businesses do environment. Will he go back and agree those protections not know exactly how trade between GB and Northern and, with them, a tariff-free trade agreement so that we Ireland is going to work—the pharmaceuticals industry can avoid the self-infliction of a no-deal Brexit alongside does not have a clue—and given that the goods movement a raging pandemic, which would be a complete disaster IT system is not yet in operation because it is not ready, for everyone in the UK? while nowhere near enough customs agents have yet Michael Gove: I have great affection for the hon. been recruited, why is it the Government’s approach to Gentleman, but he gets three things wrong. He says that say to firms that they have their head in the sand and we are planning to resile from the withdrawal agreement, are not ready, when the Government cannot tell them he says that we will go into economic self-isolation, and exactly what they are meant to be getting ready for? he suggests that we should accept EU rules in all the areas that he mentions. My reply is: no, no, no. Michael Gove: I actually think that is a fair question that contains at least two very important pieces of Andy Carter (Warrington South) (Con): As my right wisdom. On the first, the EU took a position last week hon. Friend mentioned in his statement, Warrington is and in the weeks beforehand that was, as was widely set to be the location of a new inland border facility on acknowledged, not constructive, not designed to achieve a former coach interchange in my constituency. Will he progress, and not engaging with the detail. If, as a result tell us a little more about what that will mean for jobs in of our clear view that we could not proceed on that my local area? What assurances can he give to local basis, there has been movement, as it seems as though residents who are concerned about lorries clogging up there has been today, then no one will welcome it more village roads? than me. But we cannot have from the EU the illusion Michael Gove: My colleague Lord Agnew, the Cabinet of engagement without the reality of compromise: I Office Minister, has been in touch with my hon. Friend completely agree with the right hon. Gentleman on that. and with the local authority to stress that there will be On the second point, yes, both with regard to trade in additional investment, which will mean more jobs in Northern Ireland and more broadly, there are aspects Warrington. We expect that there will be an additional that need to be worked out. That is why we want to 375 jobs created in Warrington, split between new jobs intensify these negotiations. If occasionally,in the crossfire for colleagues in the Border Force, Her Majesty’s Revenue between different parts of business, Government and and Customs, Mitie and the haulage firm Wincanton. others, different people express their frustration, that is The current expectation is that that number will rise to fine. The most important thing is that we make sure that around 460 jobs by December next year. We are also we work together in order to deliver. working to make sure that there is appropriate additional funding to ensure that there is no additional traffic Mrs Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con): I thank my problem for him, his constituents or those in neighbouring right hon. Friend for his statement. If the EU does not villages. want to complete negotiations by this time, then we have to ensure that the whole country is ready for the Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op) [V]: consequences, so nothing is more important than keeping I have known the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster our ports working efficiently and effectively. Will he join all his political career. May I urge him not to keep the me in commending the work of the local resilience door ajar but to open the door to continuing negotiations? forum in Hampshire on plans to ensure that Portsmouth, Not to have a deal would be a historic, shameful failure. which has particular local transport challenges, can It would hurt my constituents and his, with broken continue to support EU-bound freight? Will he update businesses and unemployment, and blight the future of the House on funding available to help make sure that a new generation and generations to come. Please, I beg resources for these very important plans are in place? him to try again for all of us. Michael Gove: My right hon. Friend makes a very Michael Gove: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman important point. Both the local resilience forum in for his comments. We sincerely want an agreement, but Hampshire and the authorities in the port of Portsmouth we cannot have an agreement on any terms. I know that have been working incredibly hard to make sure that his constituents, like mine, voted to leave the European they are ready for every eventuality. New facilities are Union— being built at the port of Portsmouth. The port of Portsmouth is putting in an application to the port Mr Sheerman indicated dissent. infrastructure fund for them. I had the opportunity to meet the leader of Portsmouth council and the chief Michael Gove: Oh, a curious absence, then, in Yorkshire. executive of the port alongside my right hon. Friend the Whatever our disagreements, the hon. Gentleman and I Paymaster General last Thursday. It is the case that agree that we should work together in the best interests some additional resource will be required to make sure of all the citizens of the United Kingdom. I am always that we can avoid any potential traffic congestion near grateful for his wisdom. Ever since I first arrived in the Portsmouth, and we are working with the local authority House, he has been a good friend and a wise head, and to achieve just that. whenever I have gone wrong it is because I have not paid too much attention—sorry, it is because I have not Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op) [V]: The paid enough attention to his words. Government are planning to break the withdrawal agreement they signed only last year, thereby breaking Nicola Richards (West Bromwich East) (Con): The international law and sending us into economic self- UK will prosper mightily as an independent free trading isolation. The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster nation with control over our money, laws and borders. 765 EU Exit: Negotiations and the 19 OCTOBER 2020 EU Exit: Negotiations and the 766 Joint Committee Joint Committee [Nicola Richards] devolved Administrations environment, since the devolved Administrations seem hostile to us getting any kind of What support has my right hon. Friend put in place to successful deal? help business leaders in West Bromwich East prepare for the changes and opportunities that that will bring Michael Gove: My hon. Friend is absolutely right: I when we leave the transition period at the end of this year? have met farmers in his constituency, and a tougher bunch of negotiators we would be hard-pressed to find. Michael Gove: My hon. Friend makes a very good But he is absolutely right also that their interests need to point. Fundamentally, whatever turbulence may occur, be protected, and not just by the UK Government but whatever bumps in the road there might be in the by the devolved Administration—by the Government months ahead, the strengths and resilience of our economy in Wales. We need to work together to ensure that we mean that we will prosper mightily. The manufacturing are supporting them. In the event of an Australian-style leaders in her constituency in West Bromwich and more exit, one of the sectors that we will need most energetically widely across the Black Country and the west midlands to support is the sheepmeat sector, and we will—and to are benefiting directly from the investment that we are be fair to the hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel making in customs intermediaries, in new IT processes Reeves), she made that point. and systems, and in our Prime Minister’s broader commitment to levelling up. We must make opportunity Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Ayrshire) (SNP) [V]: more equal across the United Kingdom, and my hon. The UK imports 37 million packets of medicines from Friend’s championing of business in West Bromwich is the EU every single month. The pharmaceutical industry a critical part of that. has highlighted the difficulty in rebuilding full stockpiles for the end of transition due to the impact of covid, so, with just 74 days to go, how will the right hon. Gentleman Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP): ensure that there are no drug shortages, particularly of Protecting the Good Friday agreement means protecting insulin, which the UK does not produce, and radioisotopes, Northern Ireland’s place as an integral part of the which cannot be stockpiled? United Kingdom, for that is the settled will of the people of Northern Ireland exercised through the principle Michael Gove: The hon. Lady brings formidable expertise of consent. Will the Secretary of State give us an update to this area, and she is absolutely right to highlight the on discussions in the Joint Committee on the issue of fact that we need rapid access to both insulin and export declarations and the fact that they are not required radioisotopes. That is why the Department of Health for goods travelling from Northern Ireland to Great and Social Care and the Department for Transport have Britain? Will he also give us an update on the issue of put in place contingency arrangements should there be goods at risk and the EU attitude on this, to ensure that any risk of disruption, but we are also confident that goods from Great Britain to Northern Ireland that are the steps we have taken more broadly will ensure that not passing on to the Republic of Ireland are not we have freight flowing freely between the UK and the subject to unnecessary and costly disruption? EU, including in this critical area.

Michael Gove: My right hon. Friend makes three very Damian Green (Ashford) (Con): First, I should pay important points. On the first, about exit declarations, tribute to the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, he is absolutely right: the protocol is there both to help my hon. Friend the Member for Redditch (Rachel us safeguard the EU’s single market, but also to affirm Maclean), for her exemplary communications with my Northern Ireland’s integral place in the United Kingdom constituents who live near the Sevington lorry park; I and within its customs territory, and there is no need for am very grateful. customs declarations for goods coming from Northern I still hope and expect that we will get a deal, but Ireland to the rest of Great Britain. As for his point either way, may I ask my right hon. Friend how confident about goods at risk, he is absolutely right about that as he is that the smart freight system will be fully operational well: bread that is baked in Huddersfield and goes into by 1 January, and if it is not, what does he think will a supermarket in Ballymena should not be subject to happen? tariffs, because it is trade within the United Kingdom. Michael Gove: I join my right hon. Friend in praising And his final point is right as well: the Belfast agreement the efforts of the Transport Minister, who has been was a balanced agreement, and sometimes some of the incredibly energetic and determined to make sure that rhetoric we hear about the Belfast agreement seems to colleagues in Kent from all parties are kept informed on me to be inadequate in its understanding of the vital the progress of our preparations. The smart freight importance of the fact that the majority of people in portal is being shared with hauliers and others as we Northern Ireland have voted to stay part of the United speak. It is currently in its beta phase and we want to Kingdom. Their rights, their views, their loyalty needs ensure that it is further refined, but the straightforward to be respected. approach that it should provide should enable us to minimise any disruption that my right hon. Friend or Craig Williams (Montgomeryshire) (Con): The toughest his constituents face. I am absolutely confident it will be negotiators in this country are the farmers in my in place; if it were not, other measures would need to be constituency, and my farmers recognise at this moment taken, but they would not be as helpful as the smart that my right hon. Friend and Lord Frost are excellent freight system. negotiators. That is borne out by the news that the talks are intensifying, including on legal texts. May I ask my Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): We have heard it right hon. Friend to meet me to talk about business all now: it is just, according to the Chancellor of the engagement, especially in the agricultural sector in the Duchy of Lancaster,“an unfortunate sequence of events”, 767 EU Exit: Negotiations and the 19 OCTOBER 2020 EU Exit: Negotiations and the 768 Joint Committee Joint Committee otherwise known as the Lemony Snicket defence—all constituents, like those across the country who need the fault of evil uncle Olaf and his foreign friends. But medicines such as insulin, will have the deal that ensures on the serious point about this, consider how it will that they can rely upon it? affect, for example, our musicians who go on tour. They are usually not part of large operations. They might Michael Gove: Absolutely. take their instrument, fly on a budget flight, try to sell some of their merchandise, cross a few borders in the Mr Andrew Mitchell (Sutton Coldfield) (Con): My European Union—that is how they scrape a living. right hon. Friend knows from our time in Cabinet They are making no money now. Will he please consider together that I have nothing but the greatest possible the consequences of no deal, admit that this is not a respect and admiration for his negotiating skills and frivolous issue but a matter of people’s livelihoods, and abilities. Given that we are advised that fish and state seriously engage with it rather than take this frivolous aids are the main stumbling blocks to a deal, will he and superficial approach? draw to the attention of Monsieur Macron, the President of France, the fact that if there is no deal on fishing, Michael Gove: I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman, there will not be any French boats fishing in British but I certainly would not take a frivolous approach waters, and that the size of the British fishing industry towards the livelihoods of anyone, whether they are is approximately 1.7% of the size of the British car and freelance musicians or anyone else who contributes to automotive industry? Finally, will my right hon. Friend the health, prosperity and economy of this country. remember that one of the reasons that Mrs Thatcher That is one of the reasons why we are so anxious to imposed a three-line Whip in support of the European secure an agreement with the European Union and why single market Act was to stop false competition as a we have been working so hard and in such a dedicated result of the unfair use of state aids? fashion in the Withdrawal Agreement Joint Committee. I mentioned earlier that as a result of the progress that Michael Gove: I am very grateful to my right hon. we have made with Vice-President Maroš Šefcˇovicˇ, the Friend for the three important points he makes. First, I rights of 4 million EU citizens in the UK are now am sure that the French President and others are guaranteed, as are the rights of over 1 million citizens of increasingly aware of the point he makes about the the UK in the EU. More needs to be done to ensure that consequence of no deal. Secondly, the automotive sector we can have a free trade agreement, but I absolutely is vital not just to the economy of the west midlands but take seriously the rights of citizens—whether they are, to the whole UK, and we need to make sure that we as I say, freelancers or others—to continue to be able to invest in it for the future. And his third point is right: we work and live freely. need to have our own state aid regime, not the European one, but we also need to make sure that it is consistent John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): Has my right with our market principles. hon. Friend seen how much popular and excellent quality fresh food there is in our supermarkets with the Union Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): The Road Haulage flag on the packaging? Will he confirm that if the EU Association is afraid that trade will grind to a halt if insists on high tariffs on food trade, where it sells us there are insufficient customs agents to help goods to massively more than we sell it, that would be a huge cross the border in January. Some 50,000 customs agents opportunity for our farmers to grow and rear more for are needed. On paper, the Government have allocated the domestic market and get back the huge amounts of £84 million to the task of training the necessary people. market share stolen from them under the common I know the Minister has good attention to detail, so will agricultural policy? he tell me how many customs agents have been trained from the allocated money? Michael Gove: My right hon. Friend makes three very important points. The first thing is that UK producers Michael Gove: It is a matter for the market. are doing a fantastic job in increasing production in a Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): What sustainable way.Championing the quality of UK produce preparations are being made by the Royal Navy to is something that we should all do and recognise, whether provide requisite support in a potential no-deal situation it is Orkney cheddar or Welsh lamb, that the UK flag is to our fishery protection vessels to prevent what would a symbol that connects quality not just to our consumers then be the illegal plunder of our seas by an armada of but worldwide. The second point that he makes, which French and Spanish trawlers? is absolutely right, is that the common agricultural policy has been harmful, and our escape from it will Michael Gove: We have a series of assets to make sure ensure both that our farmers can prosper and that our that we can safeguard our waters, such as the offshore environment can improve. His third point is that we patrol vessels—the River class fishery protection vessels should be confident not just that we can sell more that are at the disposal of the Royal Navy—and other excellent produce here in the UK but that, as we emerge assets, including aircraft and drones. Of course, the into the world as a global free-trading nation, new joint maritime security centre in Portsmouth provides opportunities to sell our excellent produce are available us with maritime domain awareness so that we can to our farmers, and he is absolutely right to be optimistic. safeguard our waters. Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD): The Minister Claire Hanna (Belfast South) (SDLP) [V]: We have has acknowledged the issue of the free flow of medicines 73 days to go here and businesses, deep in the middle of into this country. Will he respond to the urgent appeal a pandemic, are trying their best to prepare, but there today from the pharmaceuticals industry to find a deal, are many unanswered questions that add up to costs and will he accept the approaches from the European that Northern Ireland cannot afford. Firms and families Union and do everything in his power to ensure that my here desperately want a deal, but we are hearing only 769 EU Exit: Negotiations and the 19 OCTOBER 2020 EU Exit: Negotiations and the 770 Joint Committee Joint Committee [Claire Hanna] talk and that we are prepared to consider individual deals or agreements on specific areas such as haulage about a blame game, brinkmanship, deflection and and security? jingoism. People in Northern Ireland are more anxious than they have been in decades, with absolutely no sense Michael Gove: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I that the Government understand that, given the was not party to the telephone call that took place misrepresentation of the agreement even in the last earlier between Michel Barnier and Lord Frost, but if it hour. I ask the Minister whether there is any upper limit does presage a change of approach on the part of the to the damage that he thinks Northern Ireland should EU and a proper intensification, no one would welcome have to sustain for a Brexit that it has rejected at every that more than I do. It would mean that we could make possible opportunity. progress, but obviously the proof of the pudding remains. On my hon. Friend’s second point, if we leave on Michael Gove: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her Australian-style terms,we will be negotiating and discussing points. In my statement, I made the point—I hope that with our friends and neighbours to ensure that we have she will forgive me for making it again—that we made effective interim arrangements, particularly in areas significant progress today in the Joint Committee, thanks such as freight transport. to the constructive approach taken by Vice-President Maroš Šefcˇovicˇ. We are lucky that he and his team are Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): I am pleased so committed to making sure that the protocol works. I that, at least on the face of it, the Government appear remind her that the protocol is there to give effect to the to be standing up to the bullying tactics by Brussels and Belfast agreement, which is about agreement across have indicated that we will not leave on the basis of an communities, rather than a culture of grievance. agreement that compromises our sovereignty or our independence. On the Joint Committee, the right hon. Elliot Colburn (Carshalton and Wallington) (Con): Gentleman mentioned two things. First, he said that the My right hon. Friend may not have known it before Government had outlined what steps they had taken to December 2019, but Carshalton and Wallington residents deal with the new agrifood arrangements. Secondly, he voted to leave the European Union and are keen to see said that the Government now understood the EU’s us get on and return to being an independent, free-trading position on monitoring those arrangements. Will he tell global nation. Although we hope that the EU will us whether the EU has agreed that the goods at risk will return constructively to the table, will he confirm that, not include those goods that stay in Northern Ireland irrespective of whether a deal is struck, we will continue and that those goods will therefore not be taxed or to go out into the world to seek free trade agreements, subject to controls? Secondly, has the EU demanded such as the one we recently secured with Japan? that the implementation of that monitoring will require EU officials to be present in Northern Ireland? Michael Gove: Absolutely.A cloud lifted from Carshalton and Wallington in December last year, and we were able Michael Gove: On the first point, nothing is agreed to see at last that the people of that constituency until everything is agreed, but I think that the EU has a who voted for Brexit had a representative who believed very good understanding of exactly the points we make. in them. On the second point, we want to have a pragmatic approach whereby the UK is responsible for the Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC) [V]: The Government administration of these controls, but we want to provide say that they just want the terms that Canada enjoys the EU with reassurance wherever possible. with the European Union. Last year, exports to the European Union accounted for more than 60% of Neil O’Brien (Harborough) (Con): I voted to leave in Welsh trade; Holyhead alone accounts for more than the referendum, and I strongly agree with my right hon. 400,000 freight movements each year across the Irish Friend that we have to have the right deal, but does he sea. Wales’s relationship with the European Union is agree, given the economic challenges and the common nothing like that of Canada. Do those facts not demonstrate security threats that we are facing from Russia, China that, for Wales, the Minister’s preferred Canada-style and the middle east, that a deal is still the best outcome agreement is just not good enough? for both the UK and EU? Michael Gove: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, Michael Gove: Absolutely. The broader point that my but I think that Government and Opposition Front hon. Friend makes about the need for solidarity among Benchers recognise that a Canada-style agreement is democracies at a time of increasing insecurity across the entirely consistent with how people voted in the referendum, globe is an important one. We cannot agree to a deal at including the people of Wales, who did vote to leave. It any price—we have been very clear about that—but the provides us with an opportunity to trade freely with the broader context that he provides is very helpful. European Union but to chart our own destiny. LloydRussell-Moyle(Brighton,Kemptown)(Lab/Co-op): Robert Largan (High Peak) (Con): I share my right My very first question in this place was to ask the then hon. Friend’s disappointment in the EU’s continued Prime Minister whether she would consider separately intransigence. It is right that we do everything we can to negotiating access to Erasmus and Horizon, which did prepare for all outcomes on 31 December, but it remains not need to be part of the wider agreement, because of the case that it is in the best interests of both the UK the risk of a deal falling down. Now that the deal has and the EU to reach a long-term trade deal. Can he fallen down and all predictions about this incompetent confirm that if the EU does shift its position and return Government have come true, will the Government consider to the negotiating table, the Government stand ready to a separate track to negotiate Erasmus and Horizon 771 EU Exit: Negotiations and the 19 OCTOBER 2020 EU Exit: Negotiations and the 772 Joint Committee Joint Committee entry—which they can do and which the European ready for any eventuality. That means that if we do go Union was willing to do—so that our students and to Australian terms, we need to use the freedoms that universities can have security on this issue? that affords.

Michael Gove: The hon. Gentleman makes an important Neil Coyle (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (Lab): point, and we would like to continue participation in In 2019, £300 billion of UK exports went to the EU, both those programmes, but obviously that depends to which was 43% of our entire total, and not even 2% went a significant extent on conversations that are still going on. to Australia. This is the Minister who told us that these would be the easiest negotiations ever, but businesses in Southwark tell me that they have lost patience with the Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): Can Government, that uncertainty is costing them and that my right hon. Friend elaborate a bit more on his point their employees face losing their jobs as a result of his about state aid? Is there state aid that we wish to give to failure to secure a deal. The simple question is: why do UK companies that we were not able to do under the my constituents face losing their jobs as a result of his EU regime, or is the dispute more about the retaliation inability to do his? mechanism, as he put it in his statement? Michael Gove: I think that is what we call a leading Michael Gove: My hon. Friend is absolutely right to question, but the hon. Gentleman misattributes the say that this is significantly about the retaliation procedures, earlier quotation—I think someone else, rather than but it is also about the mode of governance by which we me, made that point. More broadly, however, prosperity would report and notify the state aids that we might for his constituents and mine depends on making sure wish to issue. that we embrace the free trading, outward-looking approach that the Prime Minister has outlined. That is the best Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab): The Prime way of making sure that can export not just to Europe Minister promised the nation an “oven-ready” deal, and and Australia, but across the world. it was avowedly going to be Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): At “one of the easiest in human history” the Munich security conference last year, the term to negotiate. Instead, this Conservative Government “westlessness” was first coined, meaning an absence of have shown that they are happy to rip up an agreement what the west now stands for, what we believe in and only months after signing it, thereby breaking international what we are willing to defend. I hope my right hon. law, and they are now hurtling us towards a disastrous Friend agrees that European defence and security must no-deal Brexit. So, on behalf of the Prime Minister, sit above the politics of Europe, because the threats are would the right hon. Gentleman like to apologise to the increasing, no longer recognising state borders or indeed British people for having made false promises? Will he membership of international institutions, but the Galileo tell us what changes he will be making to his approach project illustrates how EU politics is weakening collective to prove that the UK can be taken seriously and act in European resolve.I hope he will reconfirm our commitment good faith, despite the best efforts of this incompetent to joint European security, not least through NATO. Government? Michael Gove: My right hon. Friend makes a very Michael Gove: First, as the hon. Gentleman will important point; NATO is the keystone of our defence acknowledge, since last Friday, since the Prime Minister’s architecture. More broadly, I hope that whatever occurs statement and since the preparation of my statement in the next couple of months as we resolve our economic earlier, we have seen a welcome indication of movement relationship with the EU,the strong bilateral and multilateral on the part of the EU. I think that those who were ties we have with European allies, from Estonia to prepared to criticise the Prime Minister on Friday and France, remain and are strengthened in order to make over the weekend should perhaps, in fairness and with sure that the west is strong and democracy is reinforced. appropriate humility, recognise that he has been standing up for Britain, and therefore no apology is required. Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance) [V]: More than 40% of UK external trade is with the EU27, Richard Fuller (North East Bedfordshire) (Con): As whereas about 10% of the EU27’s trade is with the UK, the clock ticks down, the pressure will undoubtedly so clearly the UK badly needs a deal. If we end up with mount on the British Government and on the EU a World Trade Organisation rules outcome, there still government. It would be reassuring to hear from my needs to be agreement in the Joint Committee about right hon. Friend some assurance that he will not go goods at risk, so will the right hon. Gentleman give wobbly and reach for any deal on offer at that time just businesses and households in Northern Ireland a firm because it is on offer, and that as the likelihood of not guarantee that in no circumstances will any tariffs be securing a free trade agreement with the EU rises, he levied down the Irish sea interface? and his Department are working on a plan of retaliatory Michael Gove: Yes, and that was an admirably Unionist fiscal, tax and government state aid actions that could intervention from the hon. Gentleman . then be put in place. Mike Wood (Dudley South) (Con): Businesses in Michael Gove: First, may I say that I wish I had my Dudley South and across the Black Country trade with hon. Friend’s lean physique, because I am afraid that countries in every part of the world. Further to the bits of me are wobbly? That is not the case with him. On earlier question from my hon. Friend the Member for the substance, he is right: we both need to be firm in West Bromwich East (Nicola Richards), what support these negotiations, as the Prime Minister has been, and is available for businesses to understand the changes to 773 EU Exit: Negotiations and the 19 OCTOBER 2020 EU Exit: Negotiations and the 774 Joint Committee Joint Committee [Mike Wood] action that will break international law and the withdrawal agreement that was reached less than a year ago. Has customs and tax rules, so that they can prepare to take the right hon. Gentleman considered that his Government advantage of those opportunities as we become an bear responsibility for any collapse in negotiations, independent trading nation again? given their obligations to respect the rule of international law? Michael Gove: My hon. Friend makes an important point. It is the case that we are intensifying our Michael Gove: I know the point that the hon. Gentleman communications campaign. On the Government Digital is trying to make, but I think that it is misconceived, and Service gov.uk website, the transition page outlines recent events underline that. some of the information required. The Prime Minister Matt Vickers (Stockton South) (Con): The Government and I are meeting business representative organisations should be congratulated on their trade deal with Japan, tomorrow in order to reinforce that, but I would be very the world’s third largest economy. Can my right hon. happy to talk to him and other colleagues in the west Friend confirm that, irrespective of a deal with the EU, midlands, in our manufacturing heartland, to reinforce the UK will continue to pursue trade opportunities exactly what it is that we can provide businesses to with the world’s biggest and fastest-growing economies, support them to take advantage of these new opportunities. including those that might benefit exporters in Stockton South? Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op): As the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster knows, his earlier Michael Gove: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, pessimism that the talks had broken down was misjudged, and the credit should go to my right hon. Friend the because in fact we know that, while he has been on his Secretary of State for International Trade. She has not feet, the European Union has said that it is happy to just concluded a free trade agreement with Japan, but talk about any legal texts. Therefore, his pessimism that has made progress on free trade agreements with Australia, we were headed towards an Australian-style deal was on our accession to the Comprehensive and Progressive misjudged, but can he just confirm for my constituents Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership, and on other why he would be so pessimistic about an Australian opportunities for businesses, including those in Stockton deal, because his own Brexit analysis in 2018 said that South, for which he is such a brilliant advocate. such a deal would cost 8% of GDP, or £2,500 per person in layman’s terms. Are those figures still correct? Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD): I have been listening Is that the price of this failure? patiently for the past hour and I am still not certain whether we are heading for a no-deal Brexit or for a Michael Gove: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her deal Brexit. Business always says that it wants certainty. point. She is absolutely right. As a result of the Prime What certainty can the right hon. Gentleman offer Minister standing firm in defiance of criticism from business at this very late stage now for 1 January 2021? some in this House, it appears—it appears—that, at this Michael Gove: The certainty that I can offer is that we stage, the EU has moved in a way that intensifies talks will be out of the customs union and out of the single and sees legal texts being exchanged. I sincerely hope market, and that as a result we will be able to take our that that is the case. We will find out more in the days place as an independent free trading nation. Businesses ahead. As for the analysis that she quotes, that was not in Bath and elsewhere know what it is that they need to mine. do. That is certainty.It is very different from the proposition Sir Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): that the Liberal Democrats put forward at the last My right hon. Friend recognised earlier the importance general election, which was a second referendum or a of, if at all possible, obtaining continuing arrangements third referendum—I have no idea how many referendums for security co-operation and access to the very important the Liberal Democrats wanted. One thing I do know is Europol, Eurojust and related databases. All of those that they returned fewer than a dozen MPs, which matters require an agreement on data sharing, as does shows what the country thought of that. much access for the financial services business. What Dame Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con) specific advance has there been in relation to data [V]: If what my right hon. Friend has told the House adequacy and data sharing? today is accurate—that the EU has realised at the eleventh hour that it is in its best interests to reach an Michael Gove: My hon. Friend is absolutely right: we accommodation with the United Kingdom and it can need to secure data adequacy in order to have the best no longer dictate to this country—can he tell me what possible set of arrangements for business and for security. will happen with those businesses that have not prepared It is an autonomous process, but we believe that the EU for the end of the transition period? The permanent should grant us adequacy on the basis of the information secretary of his Department told the Public Accounts that we have provided. More broadly, there are a variety Committee last week that 36% of our small businesses of security and law enforcement tools to which we had not made preparations. Has that figure now been believe we will have access, but, because of European reduced? What further communications are planned to Court of Justice jurisdiction, there are one or two that ensure that all businesses are ready for the end of the remain difficult. year, whether we get a deal or not? May I say that I very much hope we do get a deal? Martyn Day (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (SNP) [V]: We have heard the Chancellor of the Duchy of Michael Gove: I absolutely agree with my right hon. Lancaster basically blame the EU for the breakdown in Friend: we do very much want a deal. We hope that the talks, but the EU has not walked away from the developments this afternoon are moving us in the right talks despite the Government setting out a course of direction. She is also absolutely on the button when she 775 EU Exit: Negotiations and the 19 OCTOBER 2020 776 Joint Committee says that, with or without a free trade agreement, businesses Covid-19 Update need to prepare. The number that are getting prepared is increasing all the time, and it is my Department’s responsibility, along with HMRC, to make sure they 4.44 pm have the information they require, whatever happens. Outside the single market and the customs union, there The Secretary of State for Health and Social Care will be new procedures. I look forward to working with (Matt Hancock): I would like to make a statement on her and others on the Public Accounts Committee to coronavirus.As winter draws in, the virus is on the offensive: ensure that we communicate the detail required through 40 million coronavirus case have now been recorded our new intensified campaign. worldwide. Weekly deaths in Europe have increased by 33% and here in the UK, deaths have tragically doubled Mr Speaker: In order to allow the safe exit of hon. in the last 12 days. The situation remains perilous. Members participating in this item of business and the While the disease is dangerous for all adults, especially safe arrival of those participating in the next, I suspend with growing evidence of the debilitating consequences the House for a few minutes. of long covid, we know it is especially dangerous for older people. Cases continue to rise among the over-60s, 4.40 pm who are most likely to end up in hospital or worse. I am Sitting suspended. very worried that the cases per 100,000 among the over 60s is 401 in the Liverpool city region, 241 in Lancashire and, in Greater Manchester, has risen over the past week from 171 to 283. That is why the Government have been working so hard to act, and I am very glad that we have been able to agree, across party lines, the necessary measures in Liverpool and Lancashire, and we are working hard to reach such an agreement in Greater Manchester. We are doing everything in our power to suppress the virus, support the economy, support education and support the NHS until a vaccine is available. That is the right strategy, charting a path that allows for the greatest economic and social freedom while protecting life. The director general of the World Health Organisation said last week: “Allowing a dangerous virus that we don’t fully understand to run free is simply unethical.” I agree. I know that this is difficult and I know that it is relentless, but we must have resolve, see this through and never stop striving to support the science that will one day make us safe. I was at Chelsea and Westminster Hospital this morning meeting NHS colleagues who are caring for patients with such dedication, as they always do. I heard from them how important it is for everyone to support the NHS by keeping the virus down so that the NHS is not overwhelmed by covid patients and it can deliver all the essential non-covid care that people need. I am glad to report that the number of people experiencing a long wait for cancer treatment has been brought down by 63% since its peak in July. I want to thank all the cancer teams who are working so hard to ensure people get the cancer screening, diagnostics and treatment that they need, even in these difficult circumstances, but the best way to protect cancer treatment and all the other treatments in the NHS is to keep the prevalence of coronavirus down. In doing this, of course, we are taking as localised and targeted a way as possible. Our local code alert level system means that we can have different rules in places such as Cornwall, where transmission is low,and Liverpool, where transmission is high and rising. On Thursday, I updated the House about several areas of the country that we are moving into the high alert level and today I would like to inform the House at the earliest possible opportunity that Lancashire has now moved into the very high alert level. Infection rates in Lancashire are among the highest in the country and are continuing to 777 Covid-19 Update 19 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Update 778

[Matt Hancock] must be prepared to deploy a vaccine as soon as one is safely available. The new regulations provide for a wider rise rapidly, including in the over-60s as I mentioned. range of clinically qualified people to administer vaccines Both the number of cases and the number of hospital and for the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory admissions are doubling almost every fortnight, and the Agency to grant a UK licence for a vaccine before the number of covid patients in intensive care beds in end of the transition period, should that be necessary. Lancashire has already reached nearly half the number We wish all our scientists well in this vital work, and we seen at the height of the pandemic earlier this year. So will give them all the support they need. we knew we had to take rapid action to suppress the We are once again at a decisive moment in our fight epidemic in Lancashire. against coronavirus. While our scientists work round We have always said that we stand side by side with the clock on the solutions that will finally bring this any local area that agreed to move into this third tier crisis to an end, we must all play our part, come and offer substantial support to local authorities, including together and work together to keep people safe, suppress for testing, tracing, enforcement and business support. I the virus and save both livelihoods and lives. I commend would like to thank local leaders in Lancashire who this statement to the House. have been working with us so constructively, and I am Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab/Co-op): sure that their willingness to put politics aside in the May I start by sending my party’s condolences to Joe national interest, and in the interests of the people Anderson for the sad loss of his brother from this whom we serve, will save lives and protect livelihoods at horrific virus? I also send our best wishes to my hon. this difficult time. Friend the Member for Bolton South East (Yasmin Following the successful introduction of measures in Qureshi) for a speedy recovery. Liverpool and Lancashire, talks continue this afternoon As always, I thank the Secretary of State for advance with Greater Manchester, led by my right hon. Friend sight of his statement. The virus continues to grow the Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and nationwide. The R rate is between 1.3 and 1.5. An Local Government. This week, further discussions are increasing number of care homes across the country planned with South Yorkshire, West Yorkshire, have seen outbreaks, with 214 in the last week. Admissions Nottinghamshire, the north-east and Teesside. to critical care continue to rise nationwide—yes, at a Sadly, over the weekend, we have seen very directly slower rate than in the first wave, but at this stage in the the impact of this disease. I was shocked to learn on first wave, critical care admissions were starting to fall Saturday of the sad death from coronavirus of Bill because of the lockdown. They currently continue to rise. Anderson, the brother of Liverpool Mayor Joe Anderson. Wewelcometheprogressthatisbeingmadeonsalivatesting My heart and, I am sure, the sympathies of the whole and LAMP—loop-mediated isothermal amplificationn House go out to the Anderson family and the people of —testing. It will allow us to introduce wider mass testing, Liverpool, who have lost a brother. All our thoughts are which is a vital tool in taking on this virus. I pay tribute with our colleague, the hon. Member for Bolton South totheuniversitiesthataredevelopinggreattestinginnovations, East (Yasmin Qureshi), who is in hospital with pneumonia such as Southampton University,and Leicester University after testing positive for covid-19. We wish her a speedy in my constituency.What is the timescale for the advances recovery and send all our support to the NHS in Greater in testing that the Secretary of State is talking about? Is Manchester, which is caring for her and so many others. the plan still for millions of tests a day? There was I would also like to provide an update on testing— speculation back in September that his plan was for another vital line of defence. We are testing more people 10 million tests a day by February, so can he tell us what than any other country in Europe. We are now doing the daily testing capacity will be by the end of the year? over 300,000 tests a day, up from 2,000 a day in February, We have seen delays in the pilots. Salford was supposed and we have opened over 500 test sites, including new to be testing 250 people a day using saliva testing, but walk-in centres in Dundee on Friday, in Edinburgh on that has now been refocused. It is vital that testing of all Saturday and in Newcastle this morning. frontline healthcare workers is now introduced to help Alongside that important work, we are working hard the NHS get through the winter, so will the Secretary of to discover and evaluate new testing technologies that Stateurgentlyspeedupthevalidationof pooledpolymerase are simpler, faster and cheaper. Some of these tests can chain reaction testing in the Lighthouse labs? It is not produce a result as quickly as in 15 minutes, and we will yet happening in those labs, and we really need it to be. make them available to local directors of public health This virus spreads with speed, so testing must be as part of our strategy for local action, starting with quick, yet results are still not turned around in 24 hours. areas in the very high alert level. We are rolling them Again, when will they be turned around in 24 hours? out across hospitals and care homes, to test patients and Contacts must be traced quickly, and those who are residents yet more regularly and keep people safe, and traced must be given support to isolate, yet we have—to for schools and universities, so that we can keep education be frank—a badly designed system that is failing to open safely through the winter. These tests have shown trace sufficient contacts, costing £12 billion and paying real promise, and we are both buying them now and consultants £7,000 a day. The Chancellor of the Duchy ramping up our ability to produce them at scale here in of Lancaster and Minister for the Cabinet Office, the the UK. We will stop at nothing to support this right hon. Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove) extraordinary scientific and logistical endeavour, which justified these failings yesterday on “The Andrew Marr can give us hope on the path back to normal life. Show”, saying that when the virus is accelerating, Finally, I would like to inform the House that on “any test and trace system of whatever kind has less utility”. Friday, we laid regulations to support the roll-out of After spending £12 billion, Ministers now just shrug both the flu vaccination and any covid vaccination. their shoulders and say, “Well, the virus is accelerating, While, of course, no vaccine technology is certain, we so contact tracing is less useful.” It is simply not good 779 Covid-19 Update 19 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Update 780 enough. The country is facing further restrictions because The hon. Gentleman asked us to fund local contact test and trace failed, so again, I urge the Secretary of tracing everywhere. We have put those funds into each State to fund local public health teams to do contact local authority, but of course we put the most support tracing everywhere and follow international best practice, into the areas that need it most. The Government’s such as Japan’s, where they focus on investigating clusters approach of targeting the support and measures on the using retrospective contact tracing. Weneed that backward areas where they are needed most is at the core of how contact tracing everywhere, not just in the places that we—as he put it—retain the consent of people while we are hotspots. go through these difficult actions. This virus exploits clustering and social interaction, To be truthful, the hon. Gentleman is far closer to and I have always accepted that socialising in closed and more supportive of the Government’s position spaces, especially with poor ventilation, is a driver of than he feels able to express at the Dispatch Box, not transmission. However, for interventions to be effective, least because he asked for economic support. Let me the consent of local people is needed and economic just leap to the Chancellor’s aid and defence. The support is vital, yet we are now in a situation where the Government have put in unprecedented economic support Bishop of Manchester—a bishop, for goodness’ sake— to help people through these difficult times—billions of describes Liverpool as “feeling cheated”, Lancashire as pounds of aid and further aid forthcoming. The hon. “feeling bullied”, and Manchester as “angrily determined”. Gentleman asked in particular for economic support If the Secretary of State is seeking to impose greater when an area goes into tier 3, which is exactly what I restrictions on Greater Manchester,surely it needs financial announced in respect of Lancashire. That is of course support so that people’s livelihoods are not put at risk, part of the discussions that we have with local authorities so can he tell the Chancellor to spend less time admiring when further actions are needed. himself on Instagram and instead deliver a financial So, there absolutely will be more economic support package to safeguard jobs across Greater Manchester? from the Government, yes; more work with local authorities The Prime Minister has promoted the tier 3 restrictions to deliver the local approach that is needed, yes; and because they mean that, in his words, “there is a chance” more testing capacity, yes. These are all the things that to bring the R number down, but how do these restrictions the Government are delivering and it behoves the hon. in the north arrest growth in the virus across the rest of Gentleman to acknowledge and support them, as clearly the country? The R number across the south-east is we are all trying to deliver the same thing, which is to 1.3 to 1.5; across the south-west, it is 1.3 to 1.6; and suppress the virus and save lives. across the east of England, it is 1.3 to 1.5. Cornwall, Devon, Suffolk, Somerset and Ipswich have recorded Jeremy Hunt (South West Surrey) (Con): I congratulate covid rates per 100,000 in recent days that are higher the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care on the than the average rates across Greater Manchester when news about LAMP—loop-mediated isothermal it went into lockdown in the summer, so to get the amplification—and lateral flow testing, which is potentially national R number below 1, more intervention will be the most significant news about the fight against the needed than is currently proposed. Is it not in the virus that the House has heard for many weeks. national interest to now follow the advice of the Scientific Given the dangers of conflicting public health messages Advisory Group for Emergencies, and adopt a two to when local leaders and national leaders say different three-week circuit break? things, is it not time to consider aligning incentives by Last week, when asked about a circuit break, the saying that local leaders have the responsibility to bring Prime Minister said, “I rule out nothing”. He also said down the R rate and giving them the powers and that he “stands ready”to apply those measures if necessary. resources to do that if necessary, but also saying that if However, the Minister for the Cabinet Office yesterday they fail to do that, they will be stripped of those ruled out a circuit break, so for clarity,have the Government powers to allow the Government to—to coin a phrase—take now completely ruled out a circuit break in all back control? circumstances? The cost of delay could be a deeper, longer, fuller lockdown. Is the Secretary of State now Matt Hancock: The approach we are taking, which is ruling that out? working effectively in almost every local area, is to work with local leaders. We are doing that across party lines, I say to the Secretary of State that we have a window whether in Liverpool or Lancashire, as I mentioned, or of opportunity. For much of the country, it is half term in South Yorkshire, the north-east and Teesside, where next week. If it is politically easier for him, he does not the discussions are collaborative and consensual. That have to call it a circuit break: he can call it a firewall or a is the way we need to deliver the public health messages national moment of reset. Whatever he calls it, we need that are best delivered with everybody speaking with something, because the longer the Prime Minister dithers, one voice and all working together to tackle the virus. the harder it becomes to take back control of this virus, That is not to mention London, where there has been a protect the NHS and save lives. We urge him to act similar approach. before it is too late. I would merely point out that over the past week in Matt Hancock: I absolutely will address the questions Greater Manchester the rate of infection among those that the hon. Gentleman raised. On the first set of aged over 60, which is the group most likely to end up in questions about testing, I might have missed it, but I hospital, has risen from 171 per 100,000 to 283, so it is think he omitted to support and congratulate the work absolutely vital, from a public health perspective, that of everybody involved in getting more than 300,000 tests we act. a day delivered—on track to a capacity of more than half a million tests a day by the end of this month. He Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Ayrshire) (SNP) [V]: rightly asked about batch testing, which is currently The economic impact on areas under the tightest covid being trialled. restrictions is significant, particularly for the hospitality 781 Covid-19 Update 19 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Update 782

[Dr Philippa Whitford] something we are constantly looking at. For now, the single most important message to everybody in Hyndburn industry, where many young workers are employed. and across Lancashire is: let’s pull together, follow the Covid will be with us for some considerable time, so we rules and get this under control. need to learn to adapt and live with it as safely as possible. As I have highlighted previously, covid is spread Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab) [V]: I thank the Secretary by airborne particles as well as droplets, so ventilation is of State for the meeting he had with north-east MPs on key to reducing the risk of spread. There are ventilation Friday. I can tell him that, if the data is accurate, the systems that incorporate antimicrobial technology, which signs over the weekend are that we are moving in the could reduce spread in indoor settings. Last week, I right direction. asked the Secretary of State whether he would speak to the Chancellor about promoting their installation by I understand that SAGE highlighted that the impact removing VAT and making them tax deductible. He did of further potential restrictions will be felt very differently not answer, so I ask him again: does he recognise the by different communities. SAGE suggests the need for importance of ventilation in the battle against covid? If immediate planning to refine measures to minimise so, will his Government use their taxation powers to potential harms and to mitigate impacts on vulnerable help to make hospitality settings more covid-secure and groups. Given the Government’s commitment to the avoid their being repeatedly shut down? levelling-up agenda, what are the Government’s plans to reduce the real risk that measures taken to respond to Matt Hancock: Absolutely we will support hospitality covid will continue to increase inequality and worsening businesses and all the sectors of the economy. My right levels of poverty and deprivation? In the north-east, we hon. Friend the Chancellor has supported the hospitality are not out of the woods by any stretch of the imagination, industry more than any other. In fact, the UK Government but can I urge the people of the north-east to carry on are supporting businesses right across the whole country. doing the right things? When the Scottish Government take action on public health grounds in a devolved way, the UK Government Matt Hancock: The hon. Gentleman speaks for everyone then come in with the economic support. That is yet across the north-east. The cross-party working has been another example of how much stronger we all are first rate and I pay tribute to all colleagues from the working together. I will take away the hon. Lady’s north-east who have been working so hard. The message detailed point and talk to the Treasury. It is, of course, a to everybody in the north-east is that there are early question for the Treasury rather than for me as Health signs that the measures are starting to work, but we are Secretary, but I just underline the importance of us all not there yet, so let us all stick with it, work together, working together across Scotland and across the whole support each other, support the NHS and absolutely of the UK, and of the economic firepower of the UK we will bring in the economic support to ensure both Exchequer supporting people right across this land. that we help businesses as much as possible, help employers and help individuals through this crisis. After Sara Britcliffe (Hyndburn) (Con): In Hyndburn and that, the levelling-up agenda is vital to unite the whole Haslingden—and, in fact, across Lancashire—we have country. some of the strongest people I have ever met. We will do everything we can to get our infection rate down, because Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con): How correct that is what we do when times are tough: we come my right hon. Friend is that the most effective actions together. However, morale is low and mental health is are those that are local and targeted. Will he confirm suffering as people cannot see their families and some that he will look at tier 2 reviews in the light of regulation have been unable to see their loved ones in care homes 8 in part 4 of the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Local since March. Will the Secretary of State outline what COVID-19 Alert Level) (High) (England) Regulations the Government are doing to mitigate that situation, 2020, so that we can target on a local basis? Given that and what steps are being taken to try to facilitate safe so many cases are asymptomatic, could he say when he visits, given that there is no clear end date? expects the new test to be more widely available across the community? Matt Hancock: My hon. Friend has shown real leadership in Hyndburn in very difficult times. This has not been Matt Hancock: My hon Friend makes an incredibly easy for the people of Lancashire. In Hyndburn, there important point, which is that the regulations are written have been restrictions for some time and I appreciate on a borough-by-borough basis, and if we can take how hard that is, but I think everybody will look to the specific boroughs out of the regulations sooner, based way my hon. Friend has tried to support people as on the data, then we will do so, and we have done. In much as possible, contacting me day and night with the fact in some cases we have taken part of a district or a cases of individual constituents, and has put herself at borough out of the regulations when that is what the the service of her constituents. The people of Hyndburn data has shown. I can give him that assurance. are very well represented. On the testing, we are rolling out the tests as fast as On the specific point that my hon. Friend makes, we can. The use case is one of ensuring that more NHS absolutely we must ensure, just as places have to go into staff are tested on an asymptomatic basis; there is more level 3 restrictions when we are concerned about the testing in care homes, where it is important to protect ability of the NHS to cope if things get further out of the most vulnerable; there is more support in education, hand, that so too will we reduce those restrictions as to make sure we can keep education as open as effectively soon as we can safely. We will do that not necessarily possible; and there is asymptomatic testing in areas across a whole county, but on a district-by-district level where there is a big outbreak. All of that will be there to if that is what the data says should be done. That is support outbreak control and get this virus under control. 783 Covid-19 Update 19 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Update 784

Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) Sir Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): (Ind): The Welsh Government have today announced a Most of the MPs in Essex have reluctantly felt the need stringent two-week firebreak to try to bring the R number to support the tier 2 measures that are now being down. Central to the strategy, of course, must be sufficient applied, but we are very concerned about the effect of economic support for businesses and livelihoods. Will this on the hospitality sector, in particular. Is it not very the Secretary of State press the Chancellor to ensure important that we align the economic interests of our that the Welsh Government have sufficient financial constituents with the public health interests instead of flexibility to pursue their chosen public health policy? polarising the debate such that one is either in favour of the economy or in favour of controlling the virus? May Matt Hancock: Yes, of course. The Welsh Government I also emphasise that one of the reasons why public respond to the circumstances in Wales as they see fit, confidence in the Government’s strategy is somewhat in according to the devolution settlement. As I was saying decline is that we have yet to see the transformation of to the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Dr Whitford), the leadership of test and trace, which I have discussed we are absolutely prepared, ready and engaged in supporting with the Secretary of State many times? communities and businesses right across the UK and in supporting individuals who, through no fault of their Matt Hancock: Where I agree with my hon. Friend is own, fall on what can be incredibly hard times because that there is no trade-off between health and economic of the impact of coronavirus. measures, because if the virus gets out of hand, then we will end up with a worse economic hit as well. I know he Sir Graham Brady (Altrincham and Sale West) (Con): agrees with that because we have discussed it many The Secretary of State knows that pubs, bingo halls and times. He, like other Essex MPs, may not like the fact gyms have gone to enormous lengths to ensure that they that we have to collectively put in place these measures offer a safe environment, and many of us in Greater in Essex, but it is the right course of action. Manchester and elsewhere are sceptical that closing those institutions would make a significant difference to Charlotte Nichols (Warrington North) (Lab): As the spread of the virus, but can I ask him why the Warrington’s neighbouring Liverpool city region and Government will not extend the additional resources Lancashire are in tier 3, with Greater Manchester expected for Test and Trace independently of those measures? to follow shortly if financial support is agreed, we need Surely, it would be beneficial to do so. confidence that if we are asked to follow suit, there is robust evidence for the required closure of hospitality Matt Hancock: Across Greater Manchester and across businesses, leisure businesses and salons. Will the Secretary Trafford, we had extended further support for Test and of State commit to publishing the specific UK transmission Trace before the tier system came in. We have engaged data for these sectors compared with other workplaces—or to make sure that we get the benefits of local teams are they merely a soft target? accessing and, because they have boots on the ground, finding people whom the national team simply cannot Matt Hancock: We published further data late last find, and that will continue. Of course, the negotiations week on exactly the question that the hon. Lady asks. and the discussions about the future of what extra we We have the backward contact tracing in place that the need to do in Greater Manchester continue. I know that hon. Member for Leicester South (Jonathan Ashworth) my hon. Friend requires further persuasion that some asked for—I apologise for not answering his question of the actions that appear to be starting to work elsewhere on that—and we have seen the evidence from that. The should be put in place. I would gently point him to the critical thing, though, is for us all to recognise that in fact that we did manage to level off the increase in places like Warrington and the surrounding area, where infections in Bolton when we brought in firmer measures, the number of cases is going up—and the number of but they have since then started to go up again after we cases among the over-60s is going up, which is particularly removed those measures. Nevertheless he is absolutely worrying—we do need to act, and to act together if at right—absolutely right—that the best way we can tackle all possible. this is by people taking personal responsibility for reducing their social interaction to reduce the risk of spread, and James Murray (Ealing North) (Lab/Co-op) [V]: The I hope that we can all metaphorically link arms and get October 2020 “World Economic Outlook” published by that message across. the International Monetary Fund clearly states that “the short-term economic costs of lockdowns could be compensated Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): by stronger medium-term growth, possibly leading to positive Small businesses in a tier 2 area such as Newcastle may overall effects on the economy.” not be asked to close, but they will face severe reductions TheGovernmentclearlydisagreewiththeIMF’sassessment, in revenue due to local restrictions affecting football, but can the Secretary of State tell me whether he or his for example, in the centre of our great city. The Secretary colleagues have carried out any analysis of the economic of State talks about unprecedented support, but these impact of a national circuit break? are unprecedented challenges for viable jobs in our city centre. In addition to what he has already mentioned, Matt Hancock: Of course we look at all the impacts what local economic support will he offer to businesses of all the policies, but we know that the more targeted a in Newcastle? policy can be, both in terms of the measures and the geography, then the less disruption it will have. If the Matt Hancock: If we do need to bring in further hon. Gentleman’s concern is with a national circuit measures in Newcastle, then there is absolutely further break, that is not the policy of the Government; the support that is available, and there is already the policy of the Government is to have a localised approach. unprecedented economic support that my right hon. He might therefore want to have a word with his own Friend the Chancellor has set out. Front Benchers. 785 Covid-19 Update 19 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Update 786

Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): The publish today the memorandum of understanding that Secretary of State quite rightly finished his statement by he and his Department have signed with the National saying that we must all play our part in getting the virus Police Chiefs’ Council? down. Does he think it was that shared population-wide commitment in Wuhan in China that has seemingly got Matt Hancock: It is very important that people come life back to normal? What lessons are there from what forward for testing. As the Chancellor of the Duchy of China has done that we could usefully apply here in Lancaster said yesterday, of course, the vast majority of the UK? people not only come forward for a test, and want to come forward for a test, when they have symptoms, but Matt Hancock: I would be cautious about some want the isolation arrangements to be enforced fairly so international comparisons, because life is not exactly that everybody isolates when they need to. That is the back to normal and there are restrictions still in place. reason that we have taken the approach that we have, For instance, we have seen today Sweden introducing which I set out to the House several weeks ago. restrictions on a regional basis, which is similar to the approach that we have here. There is a lot of debate James Daly (Bury North) (Con): Since the beginning about international comparisons, and we do look across of the pandemic, there has been no recorded covid-19 the board, but I am not sure it is true to say that life is outbreak in public houses in my constituency. Taking back to normal in in Wuhan. We need to get the science into account low national rates of transmission in pubs, to come to our aid and help us to get life back to normal when my right hon. Friend is in negotiations with here as quickly as possible. colleagues from Greater Manchester, will he think very carefully before closing these covid-secure environments, Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) which have spent thousands to ensure that they are (Lab): This weekend, I spoke to pub landlords, café and secure, and cease introducing extra restrictions that will bar owners and staff across our towns, and they all said make trading an impossibility? that business had plummeted since Wednesday, when Matt Hancock: Nobody has stood up for the pubs we became a tier 2 area. They were all cutting staff and hospitality businesses in Bury more than my hon. hours, some were considering closing completely, and Friend, and he makes an important argument about none of them was getting additional support, because outbreaks. We also have to look at the backward contact the tier 2 job support scheme simply does not work for tracing data, and at where measures to bring the virus them. Does the Secretary of State not understand that under control have worked. I will happily have a further in order to sustain support for additional health measures, discussion with him to try to make sure that we can get he has to listen to the people who are most affected by the right set of measures and the right balance. them? Will he look again at support for tier 2 and tier 3 and make sure that jobs and businesses get the support Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the Secretary they need? of State for his regular attendance in the Chamber and for his responses to questions.Will he outline the procedures Matt Hancock: Again, I am going to come to the and criteria for the vaccination schedule, bearing in defence of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor, who mind that news reports state that a fully tested vaccine has put in these support packages on a scale that has will be available in the near future? Does he agree that never been seen before. The right hon. Lady is right to frontline workers in shops need to be part of the list of raise the concerns of those in her constituency, but the priority recipients, after the medically vulnerable, NHS combination of all the schemes that are available to staff and those in the caring profession? businesses is something of a scale that this country has never had. Matt Hancock: Of course, no vaccine technology is certain, but the longer we go without bad news, the Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Ind): How many better things are, because we would hear if things had separate covid vaccines are undergoing trials at present not gone well, so things are therefore progressing. The in the United Kingdom, and what is the planned duration Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation of the trial period for each? produces a prioritisation based on clinical advice and its clinical judgment on who ought to get the vaccine in Matt Hancock: There are three vaccine trials under what order. This is a really important question to ensure way in the UK: the AstraZeneca trial, which is frequently that we roll out the vaccine fairly and on an agreed discussed; the Imperial College trial; and a trial of the basis. I will ask the Committee to look at the hon. Novavax vaccine. The period of the trial is dependent Gentleman’s specific request to make sure that is taken on the clinical results and on the data. Of course, of into account. The Committee’s advice is very important those three, the AstraZeneca trial is the most advanced for the Government decision that I hope the whole and is in phase 3 trials. We are closely in contact with all country can then get behind. of them to ensure that they get the support they need. John Howell (Henley) (Con): I make no apology for Munira Wilson (Twickenham) (LD): I was alarmed, again bringing up the question of co-trimoxazole since as were many public health experts, to read reports over I believe the drug can help very much in the fight the weekend that test and trace data is being shared against covid. Following the successful trials in India with the police. Even a source in the Secretary of State’s and Bangladesh, has there been any progress here? own Department said that that will put people off getting tested. I hope the Secretary of State agrees that Matt Hancock: My hon. Friend is right to raise that that is the exact opposite of what we need. Public trust question, and I will write to him with a full update once and confidence in test and trace is critical, and transparency I have taken advice from my clinical advisers and from of the use of personal data is central to that, so will he Professor Jonathan Van-Tam, who leads on this area. 787 Covid-19 Update 19 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Update 788

Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): At the weekend, Tonia Antoniazzi (Gower) (Lab): As the chair of the Mrs Helen Perry, one of my constituents, contacted me all-party parliamentary group on cancer, I thank to say her son and three of his flatmates at Northumbria the Secretary of State for a recent meeting regarding the university had tested positive for covid. They are all Catch Up With Cancer campaign. I, too, pay tribute to self-isolating, but despite that are being bombarded up those delivering frontline cancer services throughout to 10 times a day by NHS Test and Trace. It is the same the pandemic, but the 63% figure that he mentioned story for Mr Brian Sayer and his family, who are does not reflect the totality of the backlog, as the NHS self-isolating because a family member has tested positive. has announced new figures since then. In August, the In Brian’s words, “We’re not stupid people; we don’t number of people waiting more than 52 weeks in England need pointless telephone calls every other day”, and continued to surge to more than 110,000—the most in Mrs Perry says, “What a waste of time and money.” 12 years. The only way that the backlog will go away is When will the Secretary of State admit that the national through action and resources being deployed to tackle system has failed, and when will he hand over testing it. What progress has he made to address the need for a and, more importantly, tracing to local directors of boost to cancer services, so that cancer does not become public health, who know their areas and their communities the forgotten “c”? and know how to do test and trace properly? Matt Hancock: The hon. Lady is absolutely right to Matt Hancock: The hon. Gentleman is completely raise that issue. In my statement, I said that we have wrong on two fronts. This has been a very consensual managed to reduce the backlog among the longest statement so far, and the hon. Gentleman— waiters, those who wait more than 104 days, by more than 63% and among those waiting more than 62 days Mr Jones: Right honourable. by 44%. There is further work to do—of course there is—but the NHS has made significant strides on the Matt Hancock: The right hon. Gentleman has played backlog of people waiting for cancer treatment, and I a constructive part in getting the public health messages pay tribute to all the work that it has done. across in Northumberland, but he is wrong on two fronts. First, when NHS Test and Trace contacts people Greg Clark (Tunbridge Wells) (Con): The concern to remind them to self-isolate, that is based on the that many of us have is that restrictions can be imposed analysis we have done of what helps to ensure that in a day, but take months to lift. In London, the people stay self-isolating. restrictions were imposed not because of a higher level Mr Jones: Ten times in one flat? of infections, admissions to hospital or deaths, but because of a rapidly increasing rate of infection. If it Matt Hancock: Yes, repeatedly, absolutely; I make no turns out, when the Secretary of State conducts his bones about it. fortnightly review next week, that the rate of increase of infection is no greater in London than in places in a Mr Jones: Ten times? lower tier, will he rescind those restrictions and return it to a lower tier? Matt Hancock: Yes, because the isolation of people and their staying isolated is important. The right hon. Matt Hancock: My right hon. Friend makes an important Gentleman can complain that we are doing too much, point and, in a way, highlights that it is not just the case but that is not normally the complaint I get from the rate that matters; it is also the rate of change of the case Opposition. rate, the over-60s case rate and the impact on hospitals. The second point is that that must be, in the right In the case of London, cases are over 100 per 100,000, hon. Gentleman’s words, handed over to local authorities. which is a worrying level, but I really hope that the No, no, no; there has got to be teamwork with local measures, and the people of London and all those who authorities. It is teamwork that will help us get through work here, can bring the case rate down so we can get this, not this attempt to separate people and say, “One out of it as fast as possible. Team London is, in fact, side’s good, one side’s bad.” We are all on the same side working on a proposed strategy for coming out of in this fight against the virus. level 2, but the first thing that everybody in London has to do is follow the rules to get the rate of increase down, Mr William Wragg (Hazel Grove) (Con): Further to because it is only then that we can even start to consider this consensual statement, we are all keen to be guided the next steps. by the science, so what scientific behavioural assessment has been made of the effects of closing covid-secure Liz Twist (Blaydon) (Lab): Earlier this year, at the venues on the likelihood of people meeting in one start of the pandemic, the Government committed to another’shomes instead, thus spreading the illness further? give the NHS whatever resources it needed to deal with If my right hon. Friend has not got the information coronavirus. The NHS has that money for dealing with immediately to hand, perhaps he would care to write to covid-19, but it will need more to enable it to catch up me, as is the fashion. on all the conditions that need to be treated now that treatment is taking place. Will the Secretary of State Matt Hancock: I can answer the question. My hon. commit to provide the funding and resources needed to Friend makes an important point. The indirect evidence carry out those vital treatments? is that the number of hospital admissions due to people being over-inebriated has reduced since we brought Matt Hancock: We have put in the extra resource that those measures in, which is one indication that people the hon. Lady mentions, which is important. Not only are generally following the rules and, as I did, going has the extra resource gone in, but we are hiring people home at 10 o’clock to make sure. The vast majority of to do the work and building the buildings in which it people are following the rules. can be done. She raises an important point about the 789 Covid-19 Update 19 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Update 790

[Matt Hancock] thing we can do is to keep the prevalence of coronavirus down, because that will help to protect the people in need to recover the backlog. I am really glad that in care homes as well. areas such as cancer and many others, the backlog is being worked through, but there is still more work Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): This time last week, I to do. think the whole House welcomed the introduction by the Prime Minister of the three covid alert levels to Chris Grayling (Epsom and Ewell) (Con): I support provide some certainty about the levels at which measures my right hon. Friend’s targeted approach. It is absolutely would be introduced and what measures would apply in wrong, in my view, to close businesses and lock people a given area. Rugby is currently on a downward trajectory, in their homes in a broad-brush way in areas where the with fewer than 100 cases per 100,000, so can my right risks are much lower than elsewhere. He is following the hon. Friend reassure my constituents that by sticking to right strategy. the rules, we will remain in tier 1? I echo the comments of my right hon. Friend the Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark) about London. Matt Hancock: Yes. One of the advantages of the tier Many of my constituents have businesses across the system is that it not only involves a clear set of actions border in south-west London, where it is not the case that need to be taken if the cases go up, as happened in that the rate is over 100 per 100,000. There are large London last week, but also helps to motivate people in swathes of south-west London where it is well below level 1 areas that in order to stay in level 1, the best thing that. Can the Secretary of State make sure that it is to do is to follow the rules, to respect social distancing possible, as quickly as possible, to disaggregate those and to play their part in the reduction of the spread of areas of London where the problems are less and to the virus. Everybody who is living in a level 1 area can move back to a situation where those businesses can help to do their bit to stay in level 1 by following the operate normally? rules on hands, face and space and following social distancing. My hon. Friend is absolutely right to point Matt Hancock: As my hon. Friend the Member for that out for Rugby, but the point applies right across the Wimbledon (Stephen Hammond), who is no longer in whole of England in areas covered by level 1. his place, said at the start of this session, it is important to take a borough-by-borough approach, and I commit Steven Bonnar (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) to doing that. Unfortunately, there are parts of south-west (SNP) [V]: Given that the national minimum wage London, such as Richmond, that have an elevated case already falls far below the real living wage, does the rate above 100. In London, this work has been done Minister think that people will be able to survive this effectively and across party lines, working with the winter with their workplaces closed and receiving only leaders of local councils and boroughs, as well as with two thirds of that amount? Will the Government not the Mayor, but I will absolutely take into account the give consideration to the calls from the Scottish Government point that my right hon. Friend makes. and English regional leaders to do the right thing and offer more assistance? Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab) [V]: A number of families in my constituency are worried Matt Hancock: I am really proud to have been part of about the impact that isolation is having on their family the Government who introduced the national living members with dementia who are living in care homes wage to increase the level of support for the lowest paid with no visits allowed. In one case, a constituent’s across the whole United Kingdom. That is one example mother phones her daily and threatens to take her own of the UK Government working to improve the support life because of the lack of contact with her family. The and pay available for the lowest-paid people in Scotland Minister for Care, the hon. Member for Faversham and and across the whole of the rest of the United Kingdom, Mid Kent (Helen Whately), told the Select Committee alongside the unprecedented economic support that my on Health and Social Care last week that there would be right hon. Friend the Chancellor has put in during this a pilot for visiting in care homes, but that could be crisis. months away. The Secretary of State has talked today about visits when restrictions are reduced, but this Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con): I situation is desperate for some families, so can he tell us wholly applaud my right hon. Friend’s approach of when we can have regular meaningful visiting for every localised lockdowns, but does he agree that in an area care home resident? such as Gloucestershire, where, mercifully, the number of cases is still relatively low, the tracking and tracing Matt Hancock: The hon. Lady raises a point that is and advice on self-isolating could be improved by involving heart-rending and important, as is the protection of both national and local resources? care home residents from this disease. The situation is not quite as she said, in that we have different restrictions Matt Hancock: Yes. in different areas according to local circumstances, with a great deal of delegated authority to the local director Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): The Secretary of State of public health to make judgments on the extraordinarily said at the Dispatch Box last Tuesday, in support of the difficult balance between allowing visitors—for exactly new three-tier system, that the sorts of reasons she set out—and protecting people “we are now acting to simplify and standardise the rules at a local who live in care homes from catching the disease. When level.”—[Official Report, 13 October 2020; Vol. 682, c. 198.] the case rate is high in the community, that naturally At that point, Liverpool was put into tier 3, and the increases the risk in care homes, not just because of gyms were closed in Merseyside and Halton, but when visitors but because the staff working in care homes live Lancashire went into tier 3 on Friday, gyms there were in the community. I am sure she will agree that the best allowed to remain open. What is the reason for that 791 Covid-19 Update 19 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Update 792 difference? He should straight away authorise the reopening Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC) [V]: of gyms in Merseyside and Halton. There is no evidence Diolch, Madam Dirprwy Lefarydd. Wales is to go into to support keeping them closed. lockdown on Friday. Scotland, Northern Ireland and regions of north England are already in similar measures. Matt Hancock: That decision was taken in consultation The firebreak restrictions in Wales are tailormade for and agreement with the local area. Part of the work the health needs of Wales, but the Treasury’s support with local areas on this has been to agree the exact schemes are based on political considerations and what details of the package in level 3. best serves the south of England. Will the Secretary of State commit to bringing forward the job support scheme Dame Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con) by eight days—only eight days—and increasing the [V]: At the moment, the only defence against the virus is level of support to that of the first furlough scheme, so modifying people’s behaviour. Cases of covid are rising that more people in Wales can afford to stay safe? in Buckinghamshire, and we want to stay in tier 1. Our NHS trust and council have taken the initiative and Matt Hancock: Of course,the furlough scheme continues filmed a strong local public health message, which is until the end of the month and the job support scheme now on YouTube and social media and is recorded by replaces it. That is the reason for the timing. It is the Dr Tina Kenny, our medical director, asking local people premise of the right hon. Lady’s question that the job to follow the rules to reduce the spread of this highly support scheme, like the furlough scheme, supports contagious virus. Will the Secretary of State commend every single part of these united isles. It supports the this communication from our local health trust and whole UK, including Wales. It is the UK Government council and encourage other health authorities and coming to the aid of every single person in difficult clinicians—who people trust and have confidence in—to times. That is the approach we should be taking— engage directly with their populations to send these supporting everyone, wherever they live in this great vital messages out? country.

Matt Hancock: Yes. I applaud the work that has been Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con) [V]: I thank done across Bucks to deliver public health messages the Secretary of State for yet again coming to the House and try to get the whole community to support the to update us on the situation. I should think the whole action that we all can play our part in and that my right House would like to congratulate him on being on hon. Friend rightly raises. target for 500,000 tests a day—that is quite remarkable. Some scientists say that 1% of those tests are false Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab) [V]: The Health positives. In other words, 5,000 people a day who are Secretary really should admit that Serco has failed. If it reported to have covid-19—up to a quarter of them—might was shared fairly across the country, the £12 billion for not have the disease. Does the Secretary of State have Serco would mean £300 million for the Liverpool city any suggestions for how that might be improved? region alone. When will he give that level of funding to local public health teams, and when will he instruct Matt Hancock: My hon. Friend asks an important Dido Harding to give local teams the data that is question. The false positivity rate for the current currently held by Serco, so that they can do the job that technology—the PCR test—is much lower than that. Serco has failed to do? The analysis of the false positivity rate published by the Office for National Statistics says that the impact of Matt Hancock: Given that we hit 300,000 tests a day that rate is small. One of the exciting things about the for the first time over the weekend, I would have thought new generation of technologies is that the false positivity that the hon. Gentleman might have looked at the data rate is yet lower, further reducing the problem my hon. and the improvement that is happening. [Interruption.] Friend sets out. Opposition Members say, “not testing”. They used to complain about testing, and now that is going well. Julie Elliott (Sunderland Central) (Lab): The Secretary Contact tracing is getting better, and last week— of State has had a good relationship with local authorities [Interruption.] Last week, contact tracers in this country in the north-east and Sunderland, which I represent, contacted more than double the number of people than but once again the request for funding for Test and the week before. Instead of having a go at all the people Trace and for financial support has not been answered. who are helping to solve this massive problem, the He gave me a commitment last week that he would get Opposition should get in support of them. an answer, as did the Prime Minister, and it still has not happened. In the meantime, people are nervous and RobbieMoore(Keighley)(Con):Ithasbeendemonstrated businesses are on the brink of going under in the that far-ultraviolet C light emitted by krypton-chlorine north-east. It is a very worrying time. Will the Secretary lamps inactivates covid-19 on surfaces, as well as when of State please talk to local authorities in tier 2 about coronavirus is airborne. Some fantastic research is being the support that is needed on the ground to help undertaken to look at that, notably by St Andrews communities and businesses survive this terrible crisis? University in Fife and Ninewells Hospital in Dundee, but also by a business in my constituency. Could my Matt Hancock: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of right hon. Friend outline how this potentially game- State for Housing, Communities and Local Government changing mechanism for inactivating the virus has been is having exactly the discussions that are needed to explored at Government level? respond to the circumstances in, for instance,the north-east. The hon. Lady will understand that it is for him, rather Matt Hancock: I have seen that research, and I would than me, to discuss council finances with the councils. be happy to meet my hon. Friend to discuss how it We are putting in extra support for Test and Trace, and might be applied. linking up the data systems within the north-east. I will 793 Covid-19 Update 19 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Update 794

[Matt Hancock] tier 3 into tier 2 and then into tier 1? Will he also offer some reassurance that once the rate is down we have a again leap to the aid of my right hon. Friend the way of containing it so that we do not move back up? Chancellor about the extent of the support he has put into areas that are particularly affected by the virus, Matt Hancock: Yes. My hon. Friend has spoken for including those with level 2 and 3 restrictions, and areas Burnley with such passion throughout this crisis. It has right across the country. been very difficult for Burnley, which has now seen the highest case rate among the over-60s in the whole Simon Fell (Barrow and Furness) (Con): Last week, country. It is so important, to protect people in Burnley, the borough of Barrow in my constituency went into that everybody follows the rules there. First, we have to the high tier. I thank my right hon. Friend and his team get the case rate and the cases among the over-60s for the work they have done to engage with local falling. Once that starts to happen we can talk about leaders. South Lakeland in my constituency remains in when we can start to relax the restrictions—I do not the medium tier. Constituents and businesses in towns want to have them in place for a moment longer than is such as Ulverston are concerned that people are travelling necessary. With the expansion of testing that we are from one tier to the other and not sticking to the seeing, I hope we will be able to have more tools at our guidance and the rules. What advice would my right disposal to hold the virus down once we have got it hon. Friend give on the importance of sticking to those down again. rules in order to turn the tide on the virus for all of us? Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): Rebuilding confidence in Test and Trace is critical, yet the Secretary Matt Hancock: My hon. Friend makes an incredibly of State has taken the potentially counterproductive important point: everybody needs to follow the rules to step of arranging for data to be shared with the police give Barrow the best chance of coming out of level 2 for enforcement. That could deter people from getting a restrictions. If people live in a level 2 area, those rules test in the first place, as the chief medical officer has apply to them even if they travel to a level 1 area. If reportedly indicated. So will the Secretary of State people live in a level 1 area and travel to a level 2 area, acknowledge that a more effective strategy would be to when they are there the level 2 restrictions apply. I hope ensure that people have the financial security they need that is very simple for everybody to follow. He has in order to be able to follow the rules in the first place? provided great leadership in Barrow in describing so Following on from the question from the hon. Member clearly why it is important for everybody to follow the for Twickenham (Munira Wilson), will he answer on rules. If we do, we can get this virus under control and whether this memorandum of understanding exists? If get Barrow back into level 1, where I am sure everybody it does, will he publish it? If he will not do so, will he who lives there will want to see it. explain what he is hiding?

Florence Eshalomi (Vauxhall) (Lab/Co-op): I have Matt Hancock: There is no health data that is transferred, heard the Secretary of State say that he welcomes the but of course once this House has voted for an enforceable Chancellor’s support, and he refers Members to that, rule, it is important for all of our constituents and but does he understand the impact on the ground, communities that we enforce it. So that is a necessary especially on small businesses? A constituent of mine in consequence of the House having voted for the self-isolation Clapham is a supplier to the hospitality sector and rules to be made mandatory, which I think was the right more than 50% of his business is with pubs, restaurants decision. On the financial support that the hon. Lady and hotels. He says that if there is a further downturn in asks for, we have put in place £500 per self-isolation to this tier 2, he will not be able to stay afloat. The support people on low incomes to make sure that they Government must listen to these small businesses and are able to do the right thing. understand the real-world impact the situation is having. So will he ask the Chancellor what additional provisions Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op): Toprevent the Government are going to put in place right now to further restrictions being placed on York, we have to help the hospitality sector? lock down this virus, not lock down people and the economy. We know that the key to this is local contact Matt Hancock: Of course I will speak to my right tracing, and the reality is that the shadow contact hon. Friend the Chancellor about that. I come from a tracing undertaken by my local authority has been more small business background, so I fully understand the accurate, more effective and more responsive. That is challenges people face, including the cash flow ones. the key to getting on top of this virus, so when will the Nobody wants to have these restrictions in place for a Secretary of State release all the data to local authorities moment longer than is necessary. If she has the concern and give them the resources they need so that they can that she understandably raises, perhaps she can help to do the job properly and get on top of the virus? explain why this localised approach of having only the restrictions needed for that area in place is the right one. Matt Hancock: Weare absolutely putting more resources into contact tracing in York. It is only because of the Antony Higginbotham (Burnley) (Con): Burnley has combined effort of the national and local team that we had additional restrictions in place for longer than most are able to do the work that she describes, because the areas and is now in tier 3, the very high level. Although national system can deal with the cases who are easy to that is really difficult for residents and businesses, everyone get in contact with, or who prefer to do contact tracing wants to do the right thing, in order to bring the over the internet, rather than on the phone, which is a infection rate down. To do that, we need a sense of lot of people. That means that the local authority, as in optimism and light at the end of the tunnel, so will the the case that the hon. Member describes, can do its Secretary of State outline what the exit strategy is from work locally, so it is about having a team effort. 795 Covid-19 Update 19 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Update 796

Richard Burgon (Leeds East) (Lab) [V]: People will roundtable. I will make sure that that happens in the have seen images of packed rugby stadiums in New next fortnight, and we will do all the work to bring this Zealand last week after the country announced that it new technology to bear. had effectively ended domestic transmission of coronavirus. It followed a zero-covid strategy and has had a tiny Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): Can I return number of cases over the recent period. As we face the Secretary of State to care homes? He knows the another wave of unnecessary deaths here, life is returning utter dilemma that the care homes, their staff, their to normal there, so is the Secretary of State embarrassed residents and all of their families face between allowing that other countries have managed to drive down cases the infection into the home and causing such damage to while his Government are failing? the welfare of residents by not allowing visitors. He said earlier, in response to my hon. Friend the Member for Matt Hancock: We are doing everything we possibly Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley), that he can to suppress this virus. There have been some countries, was empowering directors of public health, which in and there have been some parts of this country, that some ways is welcome, but it needs a much more thought have explicitly followed an eradication strategy. through plan than that and the Department of Health Unfortunately, there is not anywhere where that has should be offering much more policy support. The worked permanently, and we have seen flare-ups in all Opposition have worked hard on a plan for care homes, parts of the world that have pursued an eradication so will he say what his Department is proactively doing? strategy. The critical thing here is to suppress the virus, to get it under control, to keep it under control and for Matt Hancock: The hon. Lady puts the sensitivity of everybody to play their part. this dilemma very appropriately. We have published a Mary Robinson (Cheadle) (Con): A further week has winter plan for care homes, which sets out our approach passed without agreement with Greater Manchester. in this area and we are working on the implementation However, Stockport Council has set up a pandemic of that plan. I would be very happy for the Minister for response team working in the community, promoting Care, who leads on this, to meet her to discuss how we covid-safe behaviour at pubs, bars, businesses, hairdressers can make sure that that is best done most effectively in and so on. Last week, it visited hundreds of businesses her area. and found very good covid compliance. As the Secretary Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): Having been of State works to reach an agreement in Greater out in my Colne Valley constituency this weekend, it is Manchester—I wish him the best of luck with that and clear that local people want the tier system to work, but hope it goes well—will he also consider a borough-by- that does mean that we need more financial support for borough approach and take into account the work done tiers three and two, especially for hospitality, where by local authorities with the leisure industry to try to custom is really down. Will the Secretary of State also get transmission rates down? lay out a clear framework for timescales and for how Matt Hancock: I know that many of the local authorities areas move within tiers so that businesses and communities in Greater Manchester—in fact, all of them—have taken in West Yorkshire can plan ahead? very seriously their statutory responsibilities to get the virus down, and I pay tribute to my hon. Friend, who Matt Hancock: I would love to be able to give timeframes, has been assiduous in her work to support her local but, unfortunately, one thing about this disease is that it community to do the right thing. I just hope now that moves fast and sometimes we have to move fast, too, so we can come to an agreement with the GM leadership it is better to say that I will always keep that under in the same way that we have come to an agreement review. The critical thing is that, once this House has with the Liverpool leadership and the Lancashire leadership. voted for an area to go into tier three, there will be an We are working with the West Yorkshire leadership, automatic review of that legislation after 28 days, and it across the different boroughs there, with the South will need to be proposed again—it is sunsetted after Yorkshire leadership, with the leadership in the north-east 28 days—which means that people can have confidence and with the leadership in Teesside in a highly constructive that it will be reviewed, but, of course, if we can review way, and I hope that we can do the same with Greater it quicker than that, then absolutely we will. I take my Manchester. hon. Friend’s point on the financial support, and, again, I will discuss it with the Chancellor. Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con): My right hon. Friend has heard across the Chamber the real Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): Why are the challenges that the hospitality industry is facing, especially Government still forcing people arriving in this country in tier 2. Further to the comment from my hon. Friend from countries with far lower covid rates than us into a the Member for Keighley (Robbie Moore) about emerging compulsory 14-day quarantine when it is absolutely technology in air sanitisation, especially using UV, will crucifying the travel industry? Those people are far the Secretary of State go further than in the promise to more likely to be infected here than they are in the my hon. Friend and get a roundtable together as quickly countries they are arriving from. as possible, so that we can work together and bring this technology forward—I have constituents who are ready Matt Hancock: Wekeep the countries on the quarantine to bring it forward—so that we may be able to get it into list under review—absolutely we do—and that is a the hospitality sector more quickly and hopefully give weekly exercise that is led by my right hon. Friend the the sector some relief? Transport Secretary. Matt Hancock: Nobody has done more to support Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con): the pubs of Leeds than my right hon. Friend, and he is There is now compelling evidence to suggest that vitamin doing it again today, so let us turn the meeting into a D may be useful in reducing mortality and morbidity 797 Covid-19 Update 19 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Update 798

[Dr Andrew Murrison] Matt Hancock: The proportion of contacts that are reached that are in what are called complex settings in from this disease. It is safe, it is cheap, and it is already the system—for instance, in care homes it is relatively recommended by the Secretary of State’s Department easy to find all the contacts by the nature of the for certain groups. Given our need to tackle this disease, setting—has itself fallen, as the number of cases has and given that vitamin D requires three months to build risen. If we look at the effectiveness of the system as a up sufficiently to protect against respiratory infections, whole, both national and local, at reaching people in what advice will he give urgently on the use of this the community, we see that it has been broadly flat, as particular intervention? has the proportion reached in those complex settings where it is much easier and often the proportion is close Matt Hancock: We are increasing the communications to 100%. The challenge has been that as the number of to people about the benefits of vitamin D, and as I said contacts in the community has risen, so the overall to the House on Thursday last week, we are also instituting proportion of those who are harder by their nature for further research into the points that he, as an experienced the contact tracing system to reach has gone up. That is and qualified medical professional, sets out so clearly. the direct explanation for the figures that the hon. Lady describes. The best solution to that problem is the Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab): I am sure the combination of the national and local systems working Secretary of State will agree with me that to be effective, together, and we are putting in place closer connection rules must be understandable and simple. Why in and extra financial support, both in Liverpool and Merseyside, which is currently in tier 3, were all the Knowsley, as she sets out. gyms forced to close, but soft play was left open, and in Lancashire all the gyms were left open and soft play was Ms Nusrat Ghani (Wealden) (Con): I commend my closed? Surely that does not make any sense at all. Will right hon. Friend for overseeing 300,000 tests a day he publish the evidence that he has and be consistent across the country. Will the Minister thank care workers across tiers? Either all the gyms are open or they should who do such tremendous work in care homes in Wealden? all close. Which is it to be? He will know our concerns about winter flu coming to care homes as well. I had a long meeting with care home Matt Hancock: The baseline for tier 3 is set across the providers across the constituency and they are incredibly board, and then further measures are set out in consultation pleased with the access to testing, but one care home in and agreement with the local area. Uckfield complained that 25% of tests were not picked up by a courier—I know that my right hon. Friend will Damien Moore (Southport) (Con): Following on from want to nip that in the bud immediately. that question, the gyms in Lancashire are open, but the gyms in Merseyside are closed. The deal that was struck Matt Hancock: Throughout this, and even with the for us was not a good deal for my constituents in challenges with demand for testing that we saw last Southport. Will the Secretary of State review these month, we kept the tests going to care homes because restrictions as soon as possible and get our gyms open? people who live in care homes are the most vulnerable. They are part of the solution, not part of the problem. No matter what we do to protect care homes from coronavirus, the higher the number of cases in the Matt Hancock: Nobody has stood up for the gyms of community, with staff living in the community and, of this country more than my hon. Friend, and he has course, people visiting where visits are allowed, there is made this argument endlessly to me. He stands up for more likelihood of a case getting into a care home. It is Southport, and I will take that point away. As I said to a sad fact of life. We do everything we possibly can to the hon. Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle), those decisions prevent that, as do the brilliant care staff who work in were taken in agreement with the local area, and we her constituency, to whom I pay tribute. On the particular want—as much as possible—to make agreements with point about a courier being late for a pick-up, I will look local areas so that we can all give out the same public into that immediately and see if we can resolve that. health messages that if everybody follows the rules, we Mick Whitley (Birkenhead) (Lab): On the Wirral, are more likely to get this under control and get the over a third of the people who have been in contact with Liverpool city region out of tier 3 altogether. someone with covid-19 have not been contacted by Test and Trace. Will the Secretary of State concede that Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) (Lab): I thank outsourcing of Test and Trace is simply not working, the Secretary of State for his kind words about Bill and its responsibilities should now be given to the local Anderson, the brother of the Mayor of Liverpool, who public health teams? sadly died of covid. He was my constituent and was a doughty campaigner for the livelihoods and welfare of Matt Hancock: No, I think it should be a team effort. seafarers, and he will be very sadly missed by many of us. Scott Benton (Blackpool South) (Con): Although In Liverpool, the Government’s Test and Trace system many of my constituents recognise that the decision to is reaching only 59% of contacts and in Knowsley, place Lancashire in tier 3 was indeed justified on public 57%—both well below the 80% target. The percentage health grounds, it will nevertheless leave many of them, of contacts reached has fallen over the last month by and those who own businesses, significantly worse off. 3.5% in Liverpool and 9% in Knowsley, just as both There has to be a clear pathway out of tier 3 for those areas have been placed in the very high tier 3 restrictions. local authorities currently under such restrictions, so Why are those figures so low, why are they declining and will my right hon. Friend clarify the basis on which the what will the Secretary of State do to improve that continuation of the restrictions will be reviewed and performance, because we really need it to be better? how often it will take place? 799 Covid-19 Update 19 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Update 800

Matt Hancock: We will formally review the restrictions are, even though they want to abide by them. I level that are in place in Blackpool, alongside the rest of with the Secretary of State: the communications that Lancashire, every 28 days, but that is a maximum, come from his Department need to be clearer. because if we manage to get the cases coming down I wish to ask the Secretary of State about support for before then, we will take areas out of level 3 restrictions. businesses. Viable businesses in Lancashire are now The goal for everybody in Blackpool should be to do knocking on the doors of our district councils to ask for their bit, play their part and follow the rules. Let us try financial support, but those district councils have not to get the number of cases down so that we can restore been told under what criteria they will be able to distribute some of our freedoms and, of course, support the that support and have not had the cash released from businesses across Blackpool that are understandably Government. When will the Secretary of State get a struggling. grip on this situation?

Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab) [V]: I Matt Hancock: Again, I will defend the honour of echo the words of my hon. Friend the Member for my right hon. Friend the Chancellor, who has put in Garston and Halewood (Maria Eagle) and thank the huge amounts of economic support. On the first point, Secretary of State for his tribute to my dear friend Bill one of the reasons to go to the tier system and one of Anderson, who will be a great loss to my whole region the reasons I think it was, at the time, widely welcomed and to the maritime community. across the House, was to have a system where people The specific geography of Chester means that many can much more straightforwardly understand the rules. of our businesses, which were viable until only a couple I say to everybody living across Lancashire that the very of weeks ago, are now being damaged on one side by high alert level in Lancashire is because we urgently the restrictions and the lockdown on the other side of need to get the case rate down. The thing everybody the river—the Welsh border—which runs through Chester, should do is follow the rules and restrictions that are in and on the other side by the imposition of tier 3 in place. They are there for good reason and they are Merseyside. Chester is being crushed from both sides, agreed across Lancashire. What we can all best do but both Wales and Merseyside are being heavily supported together is work together to get those rates down. financially, whereas that support is not available to businesses in the middle in Chester. Will the Secretary Katherine Fletcher (South Ribble) (Con): I thank my of State consider that effect and provide financial support right hon. Friend for his statement and for recent private so that we do not get crushed between two lockdowns? meetings. The good people of Lancashire and South Ribble get that this is all about saving lives—full stop. Matt Hancock: Of course I understand the point that However, they are weary of restrictions that have been the hon. Gentleman makes. I know Chester well, and it going on for weeks and they are worried about their has more pubs per head of population than any other jobs. Can he assure me and them that we will be in the city in the country, so the hospitality industry there is tier 3 restrictions for only as long as it takes to save incredibly important. We are giving as much support as lives? we possibly can, but we always keep these things under review.I look forward to working with the hon. Gentleman Matt Hancock: The tier 3 restrictions are put in place to support the people of Chester. when the local NHS is at risk of being overwhelmed. Holly Mumby-Croft (Scunthorpe) (Con): I thank my We will not keep people in restrictions for one moment right hon. Friend for his work. Will he give an update longer than we need to. Nobody wants to have the on the availability of the Roche reagent that Scunthorpe restrictions in place. They are there for a reason and has seen a shortage of? Can he reassure me that those that reason is clearly set out, which, as my hon. Friend who need an urgent blood test can get one and that the said, is to save lives with the minimum negative impact lack of reagent will not affect covid tests? while protecting the economy and education, and supporting the NHS as much as possible. That is the Matt Hancock: Yes, I hope I can reassure my hon strategy and I think it has very widespread support Friend on both points. First, we have largely resolved both in this House and among the public. The measures the problem of the supply of Roche kit for non-covid we put in place to deliver that have been put in place tests—mostly blood tests. There has been a huge amount with the deepest reluctance. The single best thing that of work on that and I thank my team and the Roche you, Madam Deputy Speaker,my hon. Friend or anybody team for solving the problem with the warehouse in in this country can do is abide by the rules and be Kent. Secondly, I absolutely reassure my hon. Friend cautious about social interaction—hands, face, space. that the situation does not affect covid tests: although That way, we can all help to restrict the spread of the Roche supplies around 5,000 covid tests a day, they virus and get it under control while we support our were protected throughout. scientists to come forward with the innovations that will eventually get us out of all this. Cat Smith (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Lab): At the beginning of last week, my constituents in Lancashire Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): were already bound by local restrictions. Last week, the Order. There will be a suspension of some minutes to Secretary of State made it clear that Lancashire was allow safe exit and entry. being put into tier 2 restrictions, which was a relaxing of the restrictions that my constituents had been under at 6.16 pm the beginning of the week; by Friday, my constituents were told that we were going into tier 3. This hokey-cokey Sitting suspended. of restrictions has left my constituents, who want to Virtual participation in proceedings concluded (Order, play by the rules, really confused as to what the rules 4 June). 801 Covid-19 Update 19 OCTOBER 2020 802

IMMIGRATION AND SOCIAL SECURITY Immigration and Social Security CO-ORDINATION (EU WITHDRAWAL) BILL Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill (PROGRAMME) (NO.2) Consideration of Lords amendments Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83A(7)), Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): I That the following provisions shall apply to the Immigration must draw the House’s attention to the fact that financial and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill for the privilege is engaged by Lords amendments 4 and 5. If purpose of supplementing the Order of 18 May 2020 (Immigration any Lords amendment engaging financial privilege is and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill agreed to, I will cause the customary entry waiving (Programme)): Commons financial privilege to be entered in the Journal.

Consideration of Lords Amendments After Clause 1 (1) Proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at IMPACT OF SECTION 1 ON THE SOCIAL CARE SECTOR 9 pm at this day’s sitting. 6.21 pm Subsequent stages The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the (2) Any further Message from the Lords may be considered Home Department (Kevin Foster): I beg to move, That forthwith without any question being put. this House disagrees with Lords amendment 1. (3) The proceedings on any further Message from the Lords shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion Madam Deputy Speaker: With this it will be convenient one hour after their commencement.—(Rebecca Harris.) to discuss the following: Question agreed to. Lords amendment 2, and Government motion to disagree. Lords amendment 3, and amendment (a) thereto, and Government motion to disagree with Lords amendment 3. Lords amendment 4, and Government motion to disagree. Lords amendment 5, and Government motion to disagree. Lords amendment 6, and Government motion to disagree. Lords amendment 7, and Government motion to disagree. Lords amendment 8, and Government motion to disagree. Lords amendment 9, and Government motion to disagree. Lords amendment 10, and Government motion to disagree. Lords amendment 11. I am sure colleagues will see that a large number of Members wish to contribute to this debate. We have had two quite lengthy statements, so there is pressure on time. That means we will be imposing an initial six-minute limit on speeches from Back Benchers. I hope that Front Benchers will keep their remarks as brief as possible in the circumstances to allow others to contribute. Kevin Foster: This Bill delivers on a key manifesto commitment to end the EU’s rules on free movement, and to deliver our fairer and firmer points-based immigration system. I am pleased the Bill has passed its Third Reading in the other place, led by my colleague Baroness Williams of Trafford. For such a short Bill, there has been substantial debate on a wide range of immigration issues. There are issues on which Members disagree with the Government, but we must now enact this Bill and deliver on our promise to the British people. I will speak to each amendment in turn. Lords amendment 1 requires publication of an independent report on the impact of ending free movement on the social care sector. Although it is well intentioned, the amendment is unnecessary because we already have 803 Immigration and Social Security 19 OCTOBER 2020 Immigration and Social Security 804 Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill independent reporting in this area through Skills for Kevin Foster: The right hon. Member will have seen Care and the Migration Advisory Committee, which is therecommendationsof theMigrationAdvisoryCommittee, now free to work to its own commissions in addition to and I know that my colleagues in the Department of those given to it by the Government. Health and Social Care will consider them closely. I The Department of Health and Social Care funds certainly hope that if she is keen on the MAC, she will Skills for Care to deliver a wide range of activities to support the Government’s position on the amendment support the Government’s priorities for the social care in the Lobby later. sector. This includes programmes to support employers John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): Does the Minister and the workforce with skills development, promote accept that paying people from the local labour force and support recruitment into the sector, and support better, and paying for their training, is a much cheaper leadership development. The Department of Health solution than building lots of houses to invite migrants and Social Care uses the data produced by Skills for in, and a much more popular one? Care and the trends identified to inform its policy development to support the adult social care sector to Kevin Foster: My right hon. Friend points out that in recruit, train and develop its vital workforce. a time when we have large numbers of people affected by the current economic situation, we need to focus on Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): The social our own UK-based workforce when it comes to filling care sector is a typical example of where cheap EU needs. labour has been brought in to undercut our own labour force. The public are really worried that, as EU migration Nadia Whittome (Nottingham East) (Lab): Will the has declined, so migration from other parts of the Minister give way? world has increased. I want the Minister to give a categorical assurance that, whatever happens with these Kevin Foster: I am conscious that I need to make negotiations, we will get a grip on migration from other progress. parts of the world and we will not undercut our own Lords amendment 2 seeks to continue certain family workforce. reunion arrangements provided by EU law—the so-called Surinder Singh route. It would require us to provide Kevin Foster: We have been very clear that we will lifetime rights for British citizens resident in the European have a points-based system that will respond to the economic area or Switzerland by the end of the transition needs of the United Kingdom’s labour market and period to return to the UK accompanied or joined by workforce, and that our migration system will not provide their non-British close family members on current EU an alternative to investing in and rewarding those who free movement law terms. In effect, that means that work in critical sectors such as social care. these rights would continue perpetually.Family members As Members will know, I have previously spoken at of British citizens resident in the EEA or Switzerland at length about the role of the Migration Advisory Committee, the end of the transition period are not protected by the which now has an expanded remit to examine any withdrawal agreement in terms of returning to the UK. aspect of the immigration system and to provide annual However, we have made transition arrangements for reports that Parliament can, and almost certainly will, them. British citizens living in the EEA or Switzerland debate. I have also outlined the Government’s continued will have until 29 March 2022 to bring their existing commitment to keeping all policies, including the skilled close family members—a spouse, civil partner, unmarried worker route, under review. We do have the flexibility to partner in a long-term relationship, child or dependent adapt and adjust on the basis of experience and evidence. parent—to the UK on EU law terms. The family Hon. Members will have heard me say before that the relationship must have existed before the UK left the immigration system cannot be the solution to issues in EU on 31 January 2020 and continue to exist. Those the social care sector. We must not continue to rely on family members will also then be eligible to apply to people coming to the UK when the focus should be on remain in the UK under the EU settlement scheme. the domestic workforce to address shortages in the Now that we have left the EU, we have to be fair to sector. As was just touched on, migration policy should other British citizens, whether they are living overseas not be an alternative for employers to offering the type or in the UK, and to UK taxpayers who can be called of rewarding packages that care staff deserve. on to pay the costs when family life is not established To deliver change to the social care sector, we need to sustainably in the UK. In the long run, the same rules make changes to the way that we train, recruit, attract should apply to all, not continue indefinitely to give and retain staff. The Government are focused on working preferential treatment to those relying on past free alongside the sector, including through Skills for Care, movement rights that have been abolished. This is what to ensure that the workforce can meet the increasing a global immigration system means. However, I respect demands and continue to deliver quality, compassionate the points that my right hon. Friend the Member for care. Immigration must be part of our overall strategy North Thanet (Sir Roger Gale) has made to me, and, as for this sector’s workforce, not a handy alternative for with other things, we will continue to keep this area employers to— under review. Lords amendment 3 provides for children in care and Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) care leavers who lose their free movement rights to (Lab): The Migration Advisory Committee has effectively obtain indefinite leave to remain. I pay tribute to the recommended a significant increase in the pay of noble Lord Dubs, who sponsored this amendment in social care staff, which they urgently need—and they the other place. The Government agree on the importance have been under immense pressure this year. Will of protecting the rights of children in care and care the Minister accept that recommendation from the leavers, and other vulnerable groups, as we end free Migration Advisory Committee? movement. I have also appreciated the points made in a 805 Immigration and Social Security 19 OCTOBER 2020 Immigration and Social Security 806 Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill [Kevin Foster] leave to more than 44,000 children seeking protection since 2010. The UK continues to be one of the highest letter I replied to from my hon. Friend the Member for recipients of asylum claims from unaccompanied children East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton). We are across Europe, receiving more claims than any EU providing extensive support to local authorities, which member state in 2019 and 20% of all claims made in the have the statutory responsibilities for this cohort, to EU. However, now we have left the European Union, it ensure that these children and young people, like other does not make sense in the long term to have a different vulnerable groups, get UK immigration status under set of provisions for those in fundamentally safe and the EU settlement scheme. This support includes the democratic countries than for those in the rest of the settlement resolution centre and grant funding of up to world, unless those provisions are based on effective £17 million, to cover last year and this year,to organisations reciprocal agreements relating to returns and family across the UK to support all vulnerable groups in reunification. We have made a credible and serious offer applying to the scheme. to the EU on new arrangements for the family reunion A survey of local authorities by the Home Office has of unaccompanied asylum-seeking children, and it remains so far identified fewer than 4,000 children in care and our goal to negotiate such an arrangement, but the UK care leavers eligible for the EU settlement scheme, with does provide safe and legal routes for people to join over 40% of those having already applied for status family members in the UK through existing immigration under it, and with most of those who have applied rules, all of which are unaffected by our exit from the having already received an outcome of settled status. European Union, such as the provisions under part 11 The Government have made it clear, in line with the of the immigration rules. withdrawal agreement, that where a person eligible for Lords amendment 5 would require the Secretary of status under the EU settlement scheme has reasonable State to offer a physical document free of charge to any grounds for missing the 30 June 2021 deadline, they will EEA citizen who applies for leave or has been granted be given a further opportunity to apply. We have also leave under the EU settlement scheme. As announced made clear that those reasonable grounds will include earlier, this amendment engages financial privilege, so I where a parent, guardian or local authority does not will not debate it specifically, but I will point out that apply on behalf of a child. Therefore, if a child in care the House has considered that proposal on a number of or a care leaver misses the deadline, they will still be able occasions, and has declined it each time. We have made to obtain lawful status in the UK. There is no time limit such a move across our migration system: in particular, to what may be reasonable, so an application today we are looking at the British national overseas visa from a person who is a child aged eight would be route, which will also use an electronic system. Again, reasonable if they discovered at age 18 that their local that is similar to other countries: for example, Australia council had not applied for them. has had such a system since 2015. The Government are not, therefore, persuaded of the need for this amendment. Applicants under the age Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Ind): Will the of 21 are already granted immediate settled status under Minister give way? the EU settlement scheme where a parent has that status.The idea of applying such a provision retrospectively Kevin Foster: I am going to have to start making some runs counter to the general operation of the immigration progress. rules. Lords amendments 6, 7 and 8 relate to detention time limits—an issue that is not directly relevant to the 6.30 pm purpose of the Bill, which is to end free movement. In Matt Rodda (Reading East) (Lab): Will the Minister addition, at the heart of the Bill is a commitment to a give way? global system and equal treatment of immigrants of all nationalities as we exit the transition period. On the Kevin Foster: I have to make progress. broader point, imposing a 28-day time limit on detention I will now turn briefly to Lords amendment 4, which is not practical and would encourage and reward abuse, relates to family reunion and unaccompanied asylum- especially of our protection routes. No European country seeking children. I understand the important issues that has adopted anything close to a time limit as short as this amendment seeks to address, and confirm the that proposed in these amendments, and comparable Government’s commitment to the principle of family nations have not gone down this route at all. unity and supporting vulnerable children. The Secretary However, I recognise the point made by those who of State for the Home Department, my right hon. are concerned about this issue. As I said when we Friend the Member for Witham (Priti Patel), recently discussed a very similar amendment tabled on Report, announced at the Conservative party conference our we want to reform the system so that it makes a intention to reform our broken asylum system to make quicker set of decisions, and for our position to be clear it firm but fair, and we intend to bring forward legislation that detention is used when there is no alternative, or next year to deliver on that intention. Our reformed when there is a specific need to protect the public from system will be fair and compassionate towards those harm. who need our help by welcoming people through safe and legal routes; it will, though, be firm in stopping the Mr Andrew Mitchell (Sutton Coldfield) (Con): My abuse of the system by those who misuse it— especially hon. Friend will be aware that many of us across the serious or persistent criminals—simply to prevent their House are concerned about the fact that there is not a removal from this country. limit. He is absolutely right that what is required is an We have a proud record of providing safety to those international convention and international agreement who need it through our asylum system and resettlement on this issue. Nevertheless, for some people to be detained schemes, and we have granted protection and other indefinitely having committed no crime is a matter of 807 Immigration and Social Security 19 OCTOBER 2020 Immigration and Social Security 808 Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill concern, and I would like my hon. Friend’s commitment beyond 1 January 2021; the recent publication reflects that he will keep this matter under review within the the guidance that needs to be followed today, with free Home Office. movement rights still in place.

Kevin Foster: I thank my right hon. Friend for his Sir Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Woodford constructive intervention. We will absolutely keep it Green) (Con): My hon. Friend knows that I spoke under review. I gently say that it is not possible to detain overnight to the Home Secretary and we agreed that someone indefinitely as such; they can apply for immigration this was an anomaly and needed to be sorted, so I am bail, and we have to meet a test that says there is a pleased that he now commits to doing it. Will he also, reasonable prospect of their removal. My right hon. however, commit to having a full and proper set of Friend will appreciate that, similarly, there are instances discussions with Lord McColl, me and others about the where it is out of the Home Office’s hands, or even this possibility of introducing modern slavery victims support jurisdiction’s hands, and we cannot immediately remove legislation to iron out many of these anomalies? someone by a particular day. Kevin Foster: I thank my right hon. Friend for his Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): constructive intervention. Yes, certainly; I am more Will the Minister give way? than happy to engage with him about how we can look at this process. He will realise that it is not just in this Kevin Foster: Very briefly, because I am conscious of area where there has traditionally been a difference, the number of Members waiting to speak. because EEA nationals have freedom of movement Mr Carmichael: Last year, the Government had to rights, so it would be odd to grant them status under pay out £7 million to 272 people who were wrongfully immigration rules, but I am certainly happy to have that detained. Was that good value for money? conversation. I also reassure Members that we would consider someone’s being held as a modern slave as Kevin Foster: I can reassure the hon. Gentleman that reasonable grounds for a late application to the EU the law on detention is very similar to that pre-2015, settlement scheme. I say gently that it would be unhelpful when he was in the Cabinet. Immigration detention is to have two very similar sets of criteria, one under the part of our rules, but we have been reducing its use over immigration rules and one under policy, so we do not recent years; again, it should be a last resort when other accept Lords amendment 9. methods cannot be used. However, I say again with Having been through the more contentious areas, I regret that introducing a 28-day limit would allow people hope that Members support Lords amendment 11, to exploit the system and would actually run contrary which was introduced in reaction to feedback in the to our ability to run an effective system. other place. I hope that Members accept the reasons I I turn to Lords amendment 9. I appreciated the have outlined why the Government cannot accept the chance today and over the weekend to have significant Lords amendments that we ask the House to disagree conversations on this subject with my right hon. Friends with, but I hope that they have a sense of the Government’s the Members for Maidenhead (Mrs May) and for commitment to the issues raised. Staffordshire Moorlands (Karen Bradley), who have had a strong passion and commitment to this area over Bambos Charalambous (Enfield, Southgate) (Lab): It a long period. Lords amendment 9 would require is a pleasure to be at the Dispatch Box for the return of arrangements to be made in the immigration rules for this incredibly important piece of legislation. I thank the granting of leave to remain to confirmed victims of peers in the other place for their detailed work on the modern slavery who are EEA citizens, in specified Bill. Wewelcome the amendments that have been secured, circumstances. We believe that the amendment is most of them with significant majorities; several of the unnecessary, for reasons that I will briefly set out. improvements before us today demonstrate cross-party Currently, confirmed victims of modern slavery who support. are foreign nationals from non-EEA countries and who Lords amendment 1 would require the Secretary of do not already have immigration status are automatically State to commission and publish an independent assessment considered for a grant of discretionary leave to remain. of the impact of ending free movement on the social By “automatically” I mean they do not have to apply care sector. The Government’s intransigence on this for it. Our national referral mechanism arranges for matter has been beyond disappointing. This Bill has that consideration if, after a decision has been reached, been an affront to those migrant workers working on there are conclusive grounds to believe that someone is the frontline in social care. To have clapped them on a a victim of modern slavery. EEA citizens are not Thursday night and then told them that they are unskilled automatically considered in that way, as many are likely and therefore not welcome on a Monday is both to be exercising free movement rights and therefore do disrespectful and shameful. not require a grant of discretionary leave under UK Members on both sides of the House have witnessed immigration rules. They may, however, apply for the vulnerabilities across our health and social care discretionary leave if they wish. sector, which, despite the best efforts of its dedicated However, to address some of the points that have workforce, has been pushed to the limits over the course been made, following the end of free movement, EEA of the pandemic. Unison, the UK’s largest trade union, confirmed victims who do not already have permission represents our dedicated public sector workers, including to stay in the UK, for example though our EU settlement social care workers, across the UK. We have worked scheme, will be treated in the same way as other foreign closely with Unison, which has supported and represented national victims and therefore receive automatic workers throughout the pandemic. With its in-depth consideration for a grant of discretionary leave. The knowledge of the sector and foresight, it has articulated published policy will be amended to make that clear its vision of social care in its “care after covid” campaign 809 Immigration and Social Security 19 OCTOBER 2020 Immigration and Social Security 810 Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill [Bambos Charalambous] passage would fail the test proposed by the Government. Existing immigration rules also fail to cover this specific to address the fault lines that were so exposed throughout area, and therefore this amendment gives Parliament a the last six months. To propose a Bill that will make chance to enshrine in law the basic principle of family radical changes to the recruitment of social care workers reunion. without considering the impact is simply negligent and This issue is incredibly salient and our thoughts are careless governance. still fixed on the suffering and horrors caused by the fire The Minister referred to the Migration Advisory at the Moria refugee camp in Lesbos. The scale of that Committee; in its recent report, commissioned at the tragedy could have been minimised. request of the Home Secretary, it expressed concerns We all heard the pleas before the incident to the Greek about the social care sector and argued that if necessary Government for help with numbers at the camp, yet the funding and pay increases do not materialise urgently, it calls were ignored by the people in power. would expect the end of freedom of movement to increase the pressure on the social care sector. That It is worth noting that the number of people who would be particularly difficult to understand at a time have come in under Dublin III has historically been when so many care occupations are central to the very small. Up to 2014, there were 10 or 11 a year, and covid-19 pandemic frontline response. since 2016, a little over 500 have come in under it. We hear about the Government’s proposed fairer borders These remarks should unsettle the Government and Bill on asylum, but those children cannot wait. We are spur them into action, and I fully expect that if the asking the House to use its power to give transformative Government do not listen, on the day that the new opportunities to innocent children who, through no points-based immigration system is implemented we fault of their own, have found themselves fleeing persecution will still be deeply entrenched in the battle against and destitution. coronavirus. If we do not do our due diligence by adopting this amendment, the Bill is set to undermine social care recklessly at a time when we can least afford 6.45 pm it, so we urge the Government to reconsider their position, Lords amendment 6 would limit the maximum length commission the impact assessment and understand the that an individual can be held in immigration detention impact of the Bill on the social care workforce, on visas to 28 days. As well as implementing that backstop, the and on the consequences for recruitment, training and amendment would ensure that re-detention cannot be staff terms and conditions. used as a matter of routine and will instead only be Amendment 4 would ensure there are safe refugee justified where there is a material change in the detained family reunion routes after Dublin III ceases to be person’s circumstances. The Secretary of State’s decision available in the UK following the end of the UK-EU to detain a person would, after 96 hours, be subject to transition period. I want to place on record my thanks judicial scrutiny at a bail hearing. Unless there are to the brilliant and inspirational Lord Dubs for his exceptional circumstances, the Secretary of State should tireless work and leadership on this amendment in the only detain a person if they are in a position to set other place. removal directions and carry them out within 14 days of A great deal has been said about immigration over the initial bail hearing. the summer and we on the Labour Benches want in the This amendment commands cross-party support and strongest possible terms to distance ourselves from the has done so throughout the Bill’s passage in both Houses. Home Secretary’s dangerous rhetoric and to thank those It is overwhelmingly apparent that serious systemic lawyers who play such an important role in ensuring problems exist in our current detention system. The that the UK is upholding its international and legal courts and all parliamentary and inspectorate investigations obligations. The amendment demonstrates the future in recent years have found fundamental failings.Long-term for one of the safe and legal routes we have all advocated detention of mentally ill and vulnerable detainees remains for over the summer. a serious problem. The adults at risk policy does not The Dublin III regulation is for family reunion and provide a sufficient level of protection. represents legal routes to safety from Europe for children Throughout the passage of the Bill, defenders of the seeking to come to the UK. Family reunion under current system have stated that detention for more than Dublin III is currently the only legal pathway to reach 28 days is limited to those who have committed serious the UK from the EU for the purposes of claiming offences. That simply is not the case. In reality, we have asylum. It will no longer apply after the transition seen examples of people with no offending history, period. If we do not seek to address this issue, I fear including survivors of trafficking, detained for periods that we will see more images of people making precarious exceeding 28 days. On the basis of human rights alone, and life-threatening journeys on dinghies across the channel. the amendment should be accepted, but this is also a The Government will say that they have a draft question of the general efficacy of our detention system. proposal for family reunion; however, it is apparent that It causes unnecessary human pain, and it is a waste of their proposal is woefully inadequate. The proposals resources to trap people in detention indefinitely with remove all mandatory requirements to activate family no definitive answer provided on their immigration reunions. They remove the child’s right to appeal against status. That is why we and so many others feel so refusal, and some children would not be covered by the strongly that the case for immigration detention reform narrower definition of family which Parliament passed is long overdue. in a 2017 Act. Lords amendment 3 would fast-track settled status Other safeguards have been removed, too, such as for children in care and care leavers. I think all Members deadlines.Accordingtoonenon-governmentalorganisation, would agree that the Government must do all they can 95% of people helped by NGOs to obtain a right of to ensure that everyone who is eligible to apply for 811 Immigration and Social Security 19 OCTOBER 2020 Immigration and Social Security 812 Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill settled status via the EU settlement scheme is aware of of the EU settlement scheme, carried out by the3million, the scheme. There is a profound and well-founded fear 89% expressed unhappiness about the lack of physical that EEA and Swiss children in care may be left behind. proof. Simple physical proof would provide citizens The Home Office has estimated that there are 5,000 with definitive reassurance and provide instant recognition looked-after children and 4,000 care leavers in the UK of settled status, meaning that people could continue to who will need to apply under the EU settlement scheme, live in the country seamlessly following the transition yet analysis from the Children’s Society has found that period. 153 out of 211 local authorities across the UK have identified only 3,612 EEA and Swiss looked-after children Matt Rodda: Does my hon. Friend agree that having and care leavers, with only 11% having so far secured physical proof is deeply reassuring to many older people status. in particular, some of whom might not be familiar with The Government have produced non-statutory guidance IT and might feel that an IT-based system alone does for local authorities on the EU settlement scheme regarding not give them the security they so want? their roles and responsibilities for making or supporting applications for looked-after children and care leavers. Bambos Charalambous: My hon. Friend is exactly Nevertheless, many local authorities are unaware of right. Many people have been confused about what those responsibilities and also blissfully unaware of the status they have because of the emails they have received. stark consequences and immigration enforcement measures that face children in their care if they fail to register Dr Julian Lewis: I warmly endorse the last intervention under the EU settlement scheme. That risk is now the hon. Gentleman took. Governments of all stripes compounded by the coronavirus crisis, as local authority surely have enough experience of digital disasters to resources are being diverted elsewhere. Identifying and know that people need to have something tangible on assisting children in care who need to apply for immigration which they can rely if they request it and if they feel status, which is seemingly non-urgent, will inevitably be insufficiently confident that a digital system guarantees deprioritised. Implementation of this amendment would that they can prove their status. facilitate local and national Government working together to ensure that no child in the care and responsibility of Bambos Charalambous: The right hon. Gentleman the British state becomes undocumented. makes an excellent point. We need to ensure that there Lords amendment 2 would guarantee the right of is documentation, because we have seen the failings of UK citizens who have moved to the EU to return home other IT systems in the past and cannot allow that to to the UK, accompanied by their close family, without happen again, especially on an issue as important as financial restrictions. Under the Bill as introduced, British people’s rights. citizens who moved to other EU countries while the UK Although we are open to the Government’s aspiration was a member will lose their right to return to their to move towards a digitally-focused system for all UK country of birth with a non-British partner or child immigration, we are also aware of the internal failings unless they can meet financial conditions that are beyond that prevail within the Home Office. With that in mind, the reach of many. If they need to return to look after we urge the Government to think again about adopting an ageing parent—an example shared with us on numerous Lords amendment 5. occasions—thousands will now have to choose between Lords amendment 9 would give EEA and Swiss returning to the UK alone, leaving their family behind nationals who are victims of trafficking at least 12 months’ or abandoning their parent to stay with their non-British leave to remain and access to benefits during their family overseas. Nobody should have to face a choice period of recovery after being confirmed as victims of like that, especially in the unique circumstances brought modern slavery. I thank Lord McColl for all his work about by the pandemic, which has caused stress and on this issue and congratulate him on garnering considerable anxiety for so many people. cross-party support. There is an unfortunate absence of The Government plan to use the ending of free domestic statutory provision in England and Wales for movement as an opportunity to make British citizens confirmed victims of human trafficking on their rights meet the minimum income requirement for family reunion to support and assistance. Over the years, that deficiency for the first time. The minimum income requirement is has been filled by EU law. such a significant barrier that a study found that 40% of As things stand, following the end of the UK-EU UK workers would not reach it. transition period on 31 December, human trafficking Without Lords amendment 2, we would end up in the victims will be left in an undefined legal vacuum. Following perverse situation of the Government discriminating the end of the EU settlement scheme, victims of human against their own citizens. While British citizens who trafficking who are EEA or Swiss nationals will be able have moved to the EU or EEA before the end of 2020 to apply only for discretionary leave to remain. The will face these new restrictions, EU citizens who have criteria for that are very narrow and it is unclear whether moved to the UK before the end of 2020 will not. They the same treatment as that for non-EEA nationals will will have the right under the withdrawal agreement to apply. bring family members here for life, as well as keeping Lords amendment 9 would provide much needed their existing right to return to their country of birth refuge and support to people who have suffered with families they have made in the UK. unimaginable uncertainty and abuse. We hope that the Lords amendment 5 offers a sensible method of Government will support it. We must tackle the systemic safeguarding the rights of all EEA and Swiss citizens factors that lead to modern slavery, provide support to registered through the European Union settlement scheme those who are affected, and encourage more people to by providing them with physical proof of their status. come forward to end the perpetual cycle of abuse and In the largest survey to date on EU citizens’ experience crime. I heard what the Minister said, and we wait with 813 Immigration and Social Security 19 OCTOBER 2020 Immigration and Social Security 814 Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill [Bambos Charalambous] compelling reasons to justify granting it. The bar has been set too high, and it is really important for us to interest to see what the Government will come up with, recognise that people who come here having suffered particularly in respect of support for victims of modern the real persecution of slavery need to have a little more day slavery. consideration shown for their position. They are not in To conclude, this is a bad Bill: it is reckless and the same boat as pure asylum seekers. In fact, those ignores the evidence. The Lords amendments, many of people can get a much longer period of time; whereas which have cross-party support, are a genuine attempt somebody who has genuine problems and who has to address those failings. If passed unamended, the Bill been abused finds their time curtailed. That is why we will lead to staff shortages in our care system at a time need to look further than just at what the Government when it is perilously close to collapse; encourage dangerous are doing here. I recognise that, perhaps today, this crossings, as it fails to address safe family reunion Bill is not the right way to try to press this matter routes after Dublin III; and lead to a lack of safeguarding forward, but I do say to the Government that there is and support for victims of modern day slavery. The another way. amendments have been well debated both here and in I recognise also that the problem on that score is that the other place, and I urge the Minister to accept them. a confirmed refugee can get five years’ leave to remain, but a confirmed—I repeat “confirmed”—victim of modern Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): We slavery gets no leave to remain at all. It seems to me that now have a time limit of six minutes. we have got ourselves in a twisted position, not because the Government—or any Government—want to be there, Sir Iain Duncan Smith: I am grateful to be called to but because we have an anomaly, which we now need to speak at this particular point, Madam Deputy Speaker. rectify. That is the point that I really want to make in It was the Centre for Social Justice, which I set up and the short time available. had the fortune to chair, that published the original document that pushed the Government into passing the It is expensive for us to take someone through the first modern-day slavery legislation, a matter of which national referral mechanism, conclude that they are they are rightly very proud, and that made the UK the genuine victims of modern slavery, but not provide first country in the world to bring forward such legislation. adequate care. Those people remain very vulnerable That legislation now needs overhauling. That has been and are quickly re-trafficked. As I said earlier, Leicester the case for some time. The recent report, “It still is a very good example of that, but there are other cities happens here: Fighting UK Slavery in the 2020s” states: in the UK where people are drifting into these terrible conditions because they have nowhere else to go, or, for “For many, having no recourse to public funds poses further barriers to moving people on safely, putting victims at risk of that matter, going into the national referral mechanism homelessness and destitution, and making it more likely that they but facing uncertainty over ongoing care. They do not will fall back into exploitation and trafficking.” have the capacity to give evidence in court against their The one thing that we can learn from recent events in traffickers and that is the one thing that we want them places such as Leicester, where we have uncovered the to do. We need to be able to prosecute the traffickers to most appalling abuse of individuals who have been make sure that they never do it again. We need to think victims of slavery, working for a pittance and living in about this very carefully, so I have an ask of the terrible accommodation, is that we really do not want Government—I said this when I intervened on the Minister. to see that repeated in the UK. That is the point that I He needs to make sure that the change to the guidance want to make in my speech today. is included and seen in the other place and that, critically, Lord McColl and others recognise that this has been There must be some kind of recourse to public funds done and that it is not just a gesture. for victims of modern slavery, which will make them more secure than they are at the moment. We need to Secondly, I ask the Minister seriously—he said he make that case in legislation. I am pleased that the was prepared to do this—to bring all this together in a Government have moved on the issue of European new Bill that deals with the problems that we have now economic area nationals and recognised that there was found. This is a good Bill, but we now find problems some contradiction in what they were proposing in their coming through relating to the abuse of people who are guidance. I notice that a paragraph was inserted into confirmed as having been brought in under modern-day the guidance after Lord McColl’s amendment had been slavery conditions and who we need to give support. I passed, which, had it been there originally, might have recognise that the Government are worried about people meant that there would have been no need for this using modern-day slavery provisions as a route in, but particular amendment. Two contradictions were made the numbers coming in and getting a claim are so tiny but I do not have the time to go through them now, so that we can surely manage this. I understand the position Members will have to read about them themselves. in respect of failed immigration and people on asylum, None the less, I am pleased that the Minister said from but this is a very peculiar group that needs our care. If the Dispatch Box that the Government have now rectified the Minister can commit to a discussion about future that matter and that non-EEA and EEA nationals will legislation with myself, Lord McColl and others in this now be treated the same when it comes to discretionary place who would wish to be part of that, we may be able leave to remain. That is a really important move. Having to make some progress on that. spoken to the Home Secretary and got that guarantee from her, it is a great pleasure to hear it from the 7 pm Dispatch Box. I just want to end by saying this: it is the mark of a There has always been a problem with discretionary civilised and decent society that when people have been leave to remain and it was made worse by a Minister tortured and persecuted and they flee—to this country back in 2017 saying that there must be exceptional or of all countries—they get treated well. Why? Because 815 Immigration and Social Security 19 OCTOBER 2020 Immigration and Social Security 816 Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill that is who we are. Everybody from Karl Marx through The Dublin system is far from perfect, but so many to Garibaldi came to the UK when they ran into families have benefited from it, and indeed the UK has difficulties and were persecuted. Can we please today benefited from the system as well through the contribution give our commitment that we will open our doors and that those asylum seekers and refugees have made. welcome those people who are proved to be victims of Alternative options in immigration rules, such as the modern-day slavery? exception route, are way too limited in scope and just will not do as an alternative. Whatever is or is not Stuart C. McDonald (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and happening with negotiations, these people should not Kirkintilloch East) (SNP): It is a pleasure to follow the be the victims or the latest bargaining chips. right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green Lords amendment 3 would benefit another vulnerable (Sir Iain Duncan Smith), who always speaks so expertly group—children in care and care leavers—by fast-tracking on issues of modern slavery. their access to the settled status scheme. It would allow The Lords amendments ask three important questions all children in those groups to proceed to fully settled of MPs. First, are we going to protect and promote fair status, rather than creating another cliff edge for a later treatment for families and family unity? Secondly, will date with pre-settled status. The Government have we look out for the most vulnerable? And thirdly, do we themselves acknowledged—the Minister acknowledged listen to legitimate concerns raised by communities it today—that fewer than half of eligible children in impacted by migration policy? If the answer to those those categories have applied to the settlement scheme questions is yes, as it should be, we must oppose the with just eight months left to go. Home Secretary’s motions and support the amendments The new approach in the Lords amendment is a made in the House of Lords. practical, reasonable and now, I would say, urgent Let me start my whistle-stop tour with Lords compromise, after Government arguments against an amendment 2, which is designed to protect families. The earlier iteration of the amendment that referred to fact is that in the UK we have some of the most deemed leave. It is just a practical way to assist the restrictive family visa immigration rules in the world, Government in achieving as broad a reach as possible splitting up tens of thousands of British citizens and for the EU settlement scheme. Having said that, I echo children from their spouses and parents. Sadly, that what Lord Dubs said when moving the amendment, regime is now to be extended to British citizens and which was that local authorities and the Home Office settled persons who happen to fall in love with European must also make sure that children entitled to British nationals. There is now little we can do to stop that, but citizenship have full access to that without unnecessary we can stop the rules applying to British citizens who fees and barriers. Although welcome, it is not enough are already living elsewhere in the EEA with non-UK for the Government to state that late applications from spouses and their families. these groups would be accepted; although that is better When such citizens left here and established family than not accepting such late applications, we should be life elsewhere in the EEA, they had absolutely no reason doing everything possible to avoid any period of their ever to suspect that their ability to return would be being undocumented, and all the huge difficulties and restricted. This is not, as the Government have tended stresses that that can entail. So we support this amendment, to suggest in some debates,about avoiding or circumventing and my amendment (a) would simply increase its scope rules; it is about British citizens having a legitimate to include another group of care leavers under legislation expectation of an unrestricted right to return with their in Scotland, something that the Scottish Government family.The Government should respect that expectation. have written to the Minister about. On the one hand, the Government have, to an extent, Lords amendment 9 relates to a group of people who recognised the particular circumstances of this group could not be any more vulnerable: the victims of the by providing a grace period, which is good in so far as it awful crimes of modern slavery. I pay tribute to Lord goes, but the grace period does not solve the problem; it McColl and various other members of the all-party simply postpones this deep unfairness for a couple of group on human trafficking and modern slavery,including years. Basically, the Government are saying to many the right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford families, “You need to decide by March 2022. You can Green, for their relentless pursuit of this issue. Our come back before then, uprooting your family, even in party will always support immigration leave being granted the most difficult of circumstances; otherwise, you will where that is required for such victims to put their lives need to stay away altogether.” What the Government back together, and that is exactly what Lord McColl’s should do instead is simply remove the unfairness altogether amendment seeks to do. I agree with the observations of and exempt this fixed and finite cohort from the rules the right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford forever. I really cannot see why that is such a difficult Green—I was listening to the exchange between him ask of the Government. and the Minister, and we will follow the progress in that Lords amendment 4 is also about the importance of regard—that we need to go further still. There are rights family unity. It is about protecting some of the most being lost for the victims of modern slavery from the vulnerable people out there: people, including European economic area, and we have not got ourselves unaccompanied children, seeking asylum. It is not just into a place yet where those rights are being adequately common sense but common decency that says that this replaced. is the right place for an asylum claim to be considered if On the detention amendments, too many victims of the applicant has a family connection here or if it is in modern slavery, far from being given a short grant of the best interests of a child. As Lord Dubs said in the leave to remain to help rebuild their lives, end up instead other place, this is not about the UK taking responsibility in our hideous immigration detention estate, along with for all unaccompanied children; it is about taking our scores of others who should never be there. During the fair share of responsibility. pandemic the numbers detained have dropped significantly 817 Immigration and Social Security 19 OCTOBER 2020 Immigration and Social Security 818 Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill [Stuart C. McDonald] about not just technology, but human nature. We know that discrimination is a feature of the hostile environment and we should be aiming to keep numbers as low as policy, as private citizens are forced by the Government possible. As the Minister said, detention should be a to do checks. They face harsh penalties if they get those matter of last resort, and it should be for the absolute checks wrong, so they will, as a result, play it safe. The minimum period necessary, but the figures show that a danger is that a property will be let to, and a job will be majority of people detained are simply released again offered to, a person with a passport and a visa, instead into the community. It is a badge of shame that the UK of to a person with a piece of digital code, all other continues to be an outlier in failing to place any defined things being equal. The3million is simply asking to have limit on detention. We are dealing with basic but the same reassurance that everybody else has access to, fundamental principles: the right to liberty and the and we should provide that. requirement for speedy judicial oversight of any deprivation The amendments could have a transformative effect of liberty. for many marginalised and vulnerable people. They Lords amendments 1 and 5 highlight the Government’s would enhance family unity and provide additional failure to listen to serious concerns. As we have heard, reassurance for those most directly impacted by Brexit. Lords amendment 1 flags up the huge danger that an They could be a small silver lining on what we regard as end to free movement and the design of the future an awful Bill. We should stand by the House of Lords’ immigration system pose to the care sector. It is similar amendments. to an amendment tabled when this Bill was first in this place by my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Moorlands) (Con): I Bute (Brendan O’Hara). It is totally wrong to talk of rise to speak to a number of amendments. I declare my cheap labour undercutting the resident workforce here; interest as co-chair of the all-party group on human we should be expressing our gratitude for the amazing trafficking and modern slavery, which I chair with the work that EEA citizens are doing in our social care noble Baroness Butler-Sloss from the other place. workforce. The danger to the care sector has been I will not repeat what my right hon. Friend the spelled out by the sector and by the Government’s own Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Migration Advisory Committee, not just last week but Duncan Smith) said, because I agree wholeheartedly repeatedly. Yes, the long-term future of care will require with every word, but, if I may, I will add to his comments. greater investment and better pay, but the Government Just today, the organisation ECPAT published a freedom have shown no indication or inclination to suggest that of information request which found that just 28 children they are going to fix that any time soon, never mind in who were confirmed victims of trafficking were granted the two and a half months between now and the end of discretionary leave to remain in the UK between 2016 free movement. So to take this step in the middle of the and 2019. I therefore say to the Minister that the coronavirus pandemic is just jaw-droppingly reckless. statistics do not stack up with the words we are hearing As the MAC said, ending free movement will from the Dispatch Box. I know he is a good man and he “increase the pressure on the social care sector, something that wants to do the right thing, but we need to deliver as a would be particularly difficult to understand at a time when…care” Government so that the statistics back up what is being said. is so The key point here is that we want to see prosecutions. “central to the… pandemic frontline response.” We will not break the cycle of this horrendous crime if The Government are not listening to the MAC, but we do not bring the perpetrators to justice. That means perhaps a review that would follow this amendment having victims here in the United Kingdom who are would force them to listen. able to testify, able to give evidence and able to bring the Finally, let me close by discussing Lords amendment 5 perpetrators to justice. It is incredibly important that and paying tribute to those in the3million campaign the Government bear that in mind, because, as with all group for their perseverance, even when it seems that hidden crimes, without support given to the victims, the Government do not listen. Now their modest ask is who are the most vulnerable people imaginable and that they are not used in the Home Office’s moves to go who have been through the most hideous experiences, digital; they are simply asking that, like everybody else, we will never break the cycle and bring the perpetrators they are provided with the physical means of proving to justice. their status here. The Minister referred to the example I urge the Minister not just to support what my right of Australia, but it spent five to 10 years trialling that hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford system with a physical document as back-up. This is Green said about support for victims, but to implement first about technology: the fact that someone’s legal all measures from the Modern Slavery Act 2015. That status and rights can be verified only by a Home Office was an excellent, groundbreaking and world-leading system, and all the risks inherent in that. Act—we are using lots of clichés—but so much of it has not yet been implemented. If it was implemented fully, Dr Julian Lewis: In support of what the hon. Gentleman we would see so much more success with prosecutions, is saying, let me say that it is not that millions of these which is what we all want. documents would have to be issued; they would be I will speak very briefly on Lords amendment 3. I issued only to people who felt the need to request them. urge the Government to deliver on this matter. Communication is absolutely key. We need to ensure Stuart C. McDonald: Absolutely, and it would be the that people who are entitled to claim settled status perfect trial of the Home Office system; if it really know about it. The international reputation of the works as the Home Office anticipates, there will not be United Kingdom is at risk here. Getting this wrong will a demand for it. If the Home Office has confidence in not enhance the view of us by others in the world. We the system, it should have nothing to fear from this. It is need to make sure that we get it right. 819 Immigration and Social Security 19 OCTOBER 2020 Immigration and Social Security 820 Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill I want to focus the majority of my time on Lords Last month, the Home Office published its amendment 4. I thank all Ministers for their engagement comprehensive improvement plan in response to the over the weekend. I spoke to Minister on the Front Windrush scandal, with a big focus on listening to what Bench—the Under-Secretary of State for the Home outside organisations say, presumably with the intention Department, my hon. Friend the Member for Torbay of taking some notice of it. Simply ignoring the concerns (Kevin Foster)—and to other Ministers in the Home that people have raised and ploughing on regardless is Office. I know there is concern to make sure we get this the reason why we ended up with the Windrush scandal right, but again it goes back to the point that we must in the first place. help the victims, because we can never break the cycle of In her foreword to the comprehensive improvement crime that is getting people to the point where they are plan, the Home Secretary said: in Calais, Dunkirk and Zeebrugge unless we can help “Today, the Home Office is already a very different place. We the victims. are listening to community leaders and organisations and urgent I gently say to the Minister—he is not guilty of this, change is underway”. but I gently say it to all Ministers—that we must not I was hoping that that was not just hot air, but there is think of victims as good victims or bad victims. When a absolutely no hint of that change of heart in what the constituent who has been the victim of a fraud or other Minister has said to us this afternoon. He has rejected crime comes to our surgery, we might well think to out of hand all the Lords amendments. He was speaking ourselves, “Well, buyer beware, and you should have for the old Home Office, not the new Home Office that realised when this too-good-to-be-true offer was put in we have been promised in the comprehensive improvement front of you. Maybe you should not have accepted it or plan. given your bank details,” or whatever else it might be. I will focus my short remarks on one of the amendments However, we do not judge. We do not say, “We are not in particular—Lords amendment 5—which was raised going to take your case, because you’re a bad victim in the excellent opening remarks from my hon. Friend who brought it on yourself.” Instead, we say to our the Member for Enfield, Southgate (Bambos constituents, “Of course we will take your case to Charalambous), as well as by the hon. Member for Parliament. Of course we will raise it with Ministers. Of Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East (Stuart course we will take it to the highest authorities.” The C. McDonald), the SNP spokesperson, and it was supported same applies to the victims of traffickers. If somebody in interventions by Members on both sides of the has been trafficked to Calais, Zeebrugge or Dunkirk, it House. Support for the amendment has been underlined is because they believe there is a chance of a better life. by a community organisation in my constituency. I will Whether they are educated and should have known refer to that in a moment but I underline again that, as better or whether they are very vulnerable victims, they elsewhere in the Bill, community organisations, trade are still entitled to be listened to and heard. It is clear unions and businesses all agree. I quote in particular from so many hidden crimes that until victims are what the business group, London First, said about believed and listened to, we cannot break the cycle. Lords amendment 5: 7.15 pm “With so much immigration control now being delegated to It is absolutely vital that we have a safe and legal banks, landlords, and employers, the complicated system being passage available, and we do not have that at the moment. proposed (involving websites, emails, passport numbers, passcodes, and security questions to prove one’s status) leaves everyone in an When we are out of Dublin III, what will the safe and uncertain position. Legitimate migrants will struggle to prove legal passage be? We need to make sure that there is one. their status and employers, service providers, and landlords will Just last week, the APPG took evidence on the role that be reluctant to take part in, or to trust, such a convoluted traffickers play in the migrant crisis in the channel procedure. A piece of physical proof that can be produced on ports. It is clear that the organisations that operate on demand would give everyone the certainty they need.” the ground have had the most success when there is a London First is absolutely right. Why is the Minister, scheme to which they can direct people. The reality is contrary to the assurance in the comprehensive that very few end up using the scheme, but they come improvement plan for the Home Office, not taking a forward to authority—they come and trust authority—and blind bit of notice? This is purely about administrative these are people who have been abused by authority. So convenience for the Home Office. if we want to stop the small boats and if we want to Support for Lords amendment 5 has been highlighted stop migrants being under the wheel arches of vehicles—if to me by the Roma Support Group, a long-established we want to deal with this—we need to do so by making organisation doing excellent work in my constituency. sure that there is a safe and legal passage. The EU settlement scheme statistics show that Newham, To quote Bishop Desmond Tutu: the borough I represent, had a total of 91,000 applications “There comes a point where we need to stop just pulling people submitted—the biggest number of anylocal authority—and out of the river. We need to go upstream and find out why they’re within that, Romanians account for the biggest cohort, falling in.” at about a third of the total. I urge the Minister to work with the Home Office and The Roma Support Group pointed me to the European the newly created Foreign, Commonwealth and Commission’s digital economy and society index 2018 Development Office to make sure that upstream, we are country report on Romania, which shows that by 2018 only dealing in source countries with how we stop people 61% of Romanians were regular internet users—the EU falling into the river, because we cannot deal with that average is 81%—and, looking at basic digital skills, the problem just in the channel. figure is 28% for Romanians compared with 57% for the Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): I am very pleased EU average. The assessment of the Roma Support to follow the right hon. Member for Staffordshire Group is that only 3% of its clients, and it has over Moorlands (Karen Bradley), and I agree with the points 5,000 in my borough, are able to complete an online EU that she made. settlement scheme application independently, and it 821 Immigration and Social Security 19 OCTOBER 2020 Immigration and Social Security 822 Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill [Stephen Timms] I would like to turn to the impact of ending free movement on the social care sector. Lords amendment also estimates that only 20% of the families it deals with 1 requires the Secretary of State to publish an independent have an IT device, such as a tablet or laptop, available to assessment of the impact of ending free movement on them at home. the social care sector within six months. This is wholly The Roma Support Group has told me about a unnecessary. The Government already work with Skills Newham resident, Nicoleta, a single mother working in for Care, which carries out independent reporting, and the hotel industry. She paid somebody to help her make rely on the information of the independent Migration the EU settlement scheme application in 2019. She did Advisory Committee, which will be providing annual not know that free support was available. After she was reports on our new immigration system will be working. granted status, the third party she had paid gave her a I am of the view that immigration is not the solution to confirmation letter from the Home Office and told her the challenges the care sector faces. The solution to that that paper would be the confirmation she needed. those problems rests at home. The Government are In July this year, she realised that the status she has is investing vast amounts of money, including £1.5 billion only digital and that she does not have the details more funding in adult and children’s social care, and needed to access her online account. She had to get have launched a national recruitment scheme in this somebody to call the Home Office and change the sector, which I support. The covid-19 pandemic has details on it. shown us how important this sector is and how important it is to treasure, train and retain social care workers in Nicolaie works in the construction industry. In April this country. this year, his work stopped due to the pandemic and he was told to make a universal credit application. He was Nadia Whittome: Will the hon. Lady give way? asked to provide his EU settlement scheme details, for which he had applied with help from a local organisation, Miss Dines: No, I will not give way. Our focus needs and he got into trouble as well because he could not to be investing in this country for more young people access his digital status statement. and older people to be retrained to work in this sector Of course, everybody can see the benefits of moving and to be valued with proper wages. We have a fantastic in the direction the Government want to, but the fact is resource at home. In Derbyshire Dales, I have spoken to there is a large number of people—thousands of people— several care workers. They all work incredibly hard and who will not be able to make this work in the short we treasure them. For those reasons, I oppose Lords term. I do say to the Minister that he should heed what amendment 1. he has signed up to in the comprehensive improvement Lords amendment 2 would amend clause 4 of the plan, and accept Lords amendment 5. Bill. I cannot go into as much detail as I would like because of time constraints, but the change suggested Miss Sarah Dines (Derbyshire Dales) (Con): It is a would provide preferential family reunion rights under privilege to follow the right hon. Member for East Ham EU free movement law indefinitely. The people of this (Stephen Timms). I declare an interest as a barrister country did not vote to leave the EU to go on to grant who has worked within the care system for many years. such indefinite rights. It would provide an unfair situation I am delighted to be speaking in this debate at all, for all other UK nationals who wish to live in the UK because it is further evidence of the fact that this House with family from outside the EU. The suggested creation is making the necessary laws and arrangements for the of a lifetime right for one group of nationals over United Kingdom to leave the European Union. The another—UK nationals living overseas who have families Government were elected on a mandate to deliver departure from other parts of the world—would be grossly unfair from the EU in clear terms, and reform of the present to our citizens. We are not leaving the EU and taking broken immigration system is very much part of that the EU’s broken immigration rules with us. European mandate. I receive many emails from my constituents in Union free movement simply needs to end. Derbyshire Dales who are pressing for such reform. Lords amendment 3 relates to children in care. The The primary purpose of this Bill is to end the free proposal is over emotive and simply not necessary. The movement of persons in UK law, and to make EU Government are providing extensive support to local citizens and their families subject to UK immigration authorities, which have a legal responsibility already for controls. It is the Government’s clear intention that, at applying on behalf of eligible children in care to get UK the end of the transition period, citizens of the EU and immigration status under the settlement scheme. In my their families will require permission to enter and remain practice at the Bar representing guardians, children, in the UK. For me, this is the logical result of our parents and local authorities,I witnessed such circumstances leaving the EU and becoming independent once more. I frequently. Furthermore, the Government have made it should mention that the Bill protects the immigration clear that they will accept late applications.The amendment status of Irish citizens once free movement ends. This is is just political and wholly unnecessary. only proper, and it is enshrined in a long-standing I am not going to be able to spend much time talking Ireland Act 1949 and subsequent legislation. about Dublin III, but it is worth remembering that this As is often the case, the Lords amendments seek to country is now a sovereign country and we can make water down or negate the purpose of this important our own laws. We have a strong record of supporting and good piece of legislation. I am of the view that if vulnerable children, refugees and asylum seekers, and the amendments are passed, I would be letting down my we will do that. Wehave an admirable record internationally, electorate in Derbyshire Dales. I therefore oppose the and I do not accept the naysaying and doom that we amendments and wholeheartedly support the Government hear from the Opposition. The fact is that we have an this evening. It is time for a clear and logical reform of electoral mandate to fix the problems that exist in our the present broken immigration system. broken electoral system, and I very much look forward 823 Immigration and Social Security 19 OCTOBER 2020 Immigration and Social Security 824 Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill to the great ideas of the Government for new legislation on why we should have a physical document—to learn in that area next year. We will continue to provide a safe the lessons from the Windrush scandal and what went haven to those fleeing persecution and oppression and wrong there. tyranny, but we will not allow organised criminals to I particularly urge the Government to look again at continue to exploit people, and we will have to stop Lords amendment 4, which was put forward by Lord Alf what is happening in bringing people who are exploited Dubs, who came here as a child refugee as part of the across the channel. Kindertransport when the UK rightly did its bit to Briefly on Lords amendment 5, I say that we do not support children fleeing persecution. The children and need to rely solely on written documents. Physical teenagers whom we are talking about are those who documents can get lost, stolen and are often tampered have fled conflict or persecution, and who have family with. The online scheme is safer and more reliable. I here who could look after them. Some are in camps in therefore oppose the amendment. As I am running out Greece and some are sleeping on the streets in France, of time, I cannot go into detail, save to say that a time but they should be in a safe home with relatives who can limit is necessary to be able to control immigration, and care for them. any suggestion otherwise is fanciful. I have no hesitation Safe Passage, which the Government have rightly in supporting the Government in opposing the amendments worked with to support child refugees in the past, has today. warned that 95% of the children and young people that it has supported through the Dublin route to rejoin Yvette Cooper: Can I say to the Government that I family members would be unlikely to qualify under the am disappointed that they are resisting all of the system that the Government are now proposing to amendments from the Lords? Clearly, immigration replace the Dublin arrangements. The immigration rules legislation is needed, and new immigration rules are that the Minister wants to fall back on prevent a child needed in time for January when the transition ends, but or teenager joining an aunt, older brother or someone the purpose of Lords amendments is to try to improve who could look after them when they have already been those rules and the legislation. separated from their parents—from those whom they I would say to the hon. Member for Derbyshire Dales love. It is not just inhumane to deny that small number (Miss Dines) that that is what this debate is all about—for of children the chance to rejoin a family who can look the UK to decide what principles it wants to embed in after them; it is also counterproductive and dangerous, the immigration system for the future, and many of the because it puts them at the mercy of being exploited by Lords amendments are about establishing principles trafficking gangs and criminal gangs that can otherwise around compassion and drawing on the history the UK suck them into exploitation. has long had of supporting refugees and also supporting Safe Passage has already said that some of the young the vulnerable. people it has been working with in Europe, to urge them It is disappointing that the Government are not to go to the legal system to apply for asylum in those responding to the mild request to have a social care countries and then, where necessary, apply to rejoin impact assessment. It is only a limited request, but it is family in the UK, are instead starting to panic because the right response to the Migration Advisory Committee’s they think the system is being changed and they are recommendation that something needs to be done. It starting to abscond. That means that they are starting recommended a pay increase, which I would strongly to be sucked into the arms of those smuggler gangs. We like to see. In the absence of that, it said that social care all know that those boats coming across the channel are should be added to the shortage occupation list to make really dangerous. We should be taking action to prevent sure that that vital service is not overstretched as we go those lives being put at risk. That includes making sure through another difficult winter. The Government have that where there are young people who have family to provided no response to that at all. care for them, they can do so legally. Finally, I support the words of the right hon. Members 7.30 pm for Staffordshire Moorlands (Karen Bradley) and for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith), Lords amendment 3 supports some of the most who talked about the importance of providing support vulnerable EU citizens: children in our care system. for victims of trafficking and modern slavery.The Modern Many of them may not even know that they are not Slavery Act 2015 put forward by the former Prime British, but nobody has put in an application for them Minister, the right hon. Member for Maidenhead on their behalf. The Minister said that there are fewer (Mrs May), when she was Home Secretary was immensely than 4,000 children and 40% have applied. That means important, but it is not working in practice if some that 60% have not applied. We are talking about more victims of trafficking and modern slavery simply do not than 2,000 children, which is not that many from the get the support that they need. It is possible to have a point of view of the Government’s system, but for every new immigration system that provides support for the single one of those children, it could have a huge impact most vulnerable and those who are victims of slavery. on their lives for many years to come if they find that, in The Government should do that. fact, they do not have the entitlements in place. The Minister said, “That’s okay, it’ll be fine. The Mr Carmichael: It is a pleasure to follow the Chair of Home Office will sort it in future.” Unfortunately, the the Home Affairs Committee, the right hon. Member legacy of the Windrush scandal proves that the Home for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper). Office has not historically been good at resolving such Like others, I would like to thank all those in the other things many years in the future when policies have place for their time and their attention to the Bill. The moved on and institutional memory has been lost. That amendments that they have sent to us are undoubtedly is why I support the powerful words of my right hon. significant improvements and, like the right hon. Lady, Friend the Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms) I regret that all we have had from the Government is a 825 Immigration and Social Security 19 OCTOBER 2020 Immigration and Social Security 826 Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill [Mr Alistair Carmichael] Mr Carmichael: That is indeed the case. However, the rhetoric and the reality do not always provide a perfect de plano refusal of them. There are not even any match in this regard. But in fairness, and at the risk of amendments in lieu, which would have shown a level of playing with semantics, it would not be that difficult to engagement. achieve a more compassionate system because we are This is particularly true in relation to Lords amendment 1, currently starting from an exceptionally low base. At an eminently modest proposal that has elicited the quite the end of June this year, even in the midst of the remarkable assertion that, somehow or another, the pandemic, there were 40 people who had been in detention purpose of immigration is to keep wages and salaries for over a year and four people who had been in low in the British care sector. I have to say that I detention for more than two years. This has particular struggle with that somewhat. I just do not buy the idea importance when one considers the other areas that we that, if we were to increase the level of pay in the care have discussed, such as the right to family reunion for sector, we would see a flood of local labour going back child refugees. To pick up the point from the right hon. into it. Notwithstanding that, it is quite remarkable to Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain think that the Government would not want to have an Duncan Smith) in relation to amendment 9, I endorse impact assessment for an area of public policy with his views on human trafficking. The problem in all these whose financing we have struggled for almost as long as cases is that we do not get upstream because we do not I have been in this House. Indeed, I cannot remember a get the necessary co-operation from the victims themselves. time, in any part of the United Kingdom, when we did If the focus in our system was on catching those who not struggle with its finances. are responsible for the trafficking, and not those who I want to touch briefly on Lords amendment 5, which are the victims of it, we would be in a much stronger was promoted in the other place by my noble Friend position. The issue of unlimited detention goes right to Lord Oates.Various points on this were made exceptionally the heart of that. It is about which end of the telescope well by the right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen we see the problem through. Timms). The promise made by the Government at the The amendments that are before the House this evening election last year was that there would be some sort of areallsignificantimprovements.IhopethattheGovernment, evidence-based settlement scheme, but now we are told on reflection, will find a way to engage with this in a that it will be enough just to rely on a digital provision. I more constructive and compassionate way. strongly suspect that, inside the National Audit Office, there are alarm bells and lights that flash every time a Minister stands at the Dispatch Box and says that there Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con): will be a digital solution to a problem. In my experience, It is difficult, in six minutes, to do justice to such an any digital solution generally creates a new problem, important piece of legislation, with such a diverse set of especially for those who are older and those who are amendments. I want to speak primarily to Lords digitally excluded, for whom this is going to create a amendment 3—the old new clause 2 that I proposed on further and unnecessary level of exclusion. Report—and Lords amendment 4, which is the old new I want to focus the bulk of my remarks this evening on clause 29 on the Dublin replacement. However, I also Lords amendments 6 to 8 and 10, which were promoted support Lords amendment 6, previously proposed by in the other place by my noble Friend Baroness Hamwee. my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Subject to your agreement, Madam Deputy Speaker,I hope Howden (Mr Davis), and Lords amendment 9, which that we might test the opinion of the House in relation to my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and these amendments later this evening. It is worthy of note Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith) spoke so that the United Kingdom is the only country in Europe eloquently about. that locks people up indefinitely for immigration purposes. On Lords amendment 3, we had previous arguments Detaining people for months on end without giving about lots of children in care going under the radar. them any idea of how long they will be there is clearly There are now just eight months to go until the end of inhumane, but it is also expensive and unnecessary. the EU settlement scheme. The Home Office originally I have long since given up trying to plead with Home told us that it estimated that there were some 9,000 EU Office Ministers on the basis of humanity and compassion, children in care and care leavers in this country, but but I would have hoped that a case based on economy now, after a survey completed by 90% of local and efficiency would find some favour. However, even authorities, it suggests that the figure is under 4,000. that seems not to be the case. When I made an intervention Why the drop? At a similar time, it estimated that the on the Minister,he deftly ignored my point that £7 million number of EU adults who would register to qualify for was paid out last year and that there were 272 cases of the EU settlement scheme would be 3 million, but it has wrongful detention. That is the scale of the crisis in this turned out to be over 4 million. Why does the number area. It really worries me that there is so little concern for children in care go down and yet the number for about the fact that no fewer than 272 people were adults has gone up? detained wrongfully. That is wrong, it is inefficient and it is expensive. Surely for those reasons at least, the These children are of course already in this country. Government should be looking to find a better and Not a single additional child will be brought into this more humane basis for doing this. country under this legislation. It is about regularising status and giving those children safety and giving Stephen Timms: I very much agree with the right hon. confirmation to children already in this country. That Gentleman. He says that he has given up asking the is why the amendment is still very important. We risk Home Office for compassion, but I wonder whether he another Windrush scandal for a particularly vulnerable has seen, in the comprehensive improvement plan, that set of children growing up in care who inevitably have theme 2 involves a more compassionate approach. more chaotic lifestyles than most people. 827 Immigration and Social Security 19 OCTOBER 2020 Immigration and Social Security 828 Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill Recent research by the charity Coram, “Children left up for negotiation. A new agreement with the EU to out?”, highlighted the mixed practice among local replace Dublin III is not under discussion in the negotiations authorities in identifying and supporting children in and has not been for some time, as the EU has no care through the EU settlement scheme, with fears that mandate for member states—and of course, as of last some authorities are making no attempt to identify week, there are no negotiations. We are at risk of children in their care who need to regularise their status. leaving a large vacuum. Of course, there is no incentive for authorities to regularise We need a scheme that is as good as Dublin III. The that status through citizenship when it costs £1,012, for Minister says that we will use the UK scheme available every child, to do that. for reuniting families from the rest of the world, but the UK scheme is restricted to unaccompanied children David Simmonds (Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner) joining parents. If a child has fled Syria because their (Con): My hon. Friend is drawing attention to a very parents have been killed, they have no parents, so they important issue. Does he agree that the crucial point is would not qualify.A brother, sister or uncle who happens that a local authority may have the statutory duty as the to be in the UK may be the only surviving relative of corporate parent, but if the child does not have documentary some of these kids. The UK scheme as it stands, without evidence proving their nationality—not their residence, a replacement for Dublin III, would ignore all those which the local authority can prove easily, but their children. nationality—the local authority is unable to take forward the application at all? I hope the Minister will be able to Karen Bradley: It is often said that these are older address that issue when he responds to the debate. children aged 14, 15 or 16. I have a 14-year-old, and if my 14-year-old did not have me, I would want to know Tim Loughton: That is absolutely right. It is very that they could go to one of my family, be that my difficult to replace documents, and many people come brothers or my in-laws. Does my hon. Friend agree? here without any documents. We are relying on the timescales of high commissions and embassies in various Tim Loughton: My right hon. Friend is right. I have EU countries, and it is not exactly a priority of social met many of these children in camps in Calais, in workers, who are snowed under with all the other Zaatari in Jordan and in some of the less well-run safeguarding work they have to do. camps in Greece. These are real children, bereft of This is a really important amendment. Interestingly, parents in many cases, with just a link in the UK. there was a judgment by the Local Government and Without this amendment—without a replacement for Social Care Ombudsman against Liverpool Council. A Dublin III—those children have no obvious safe and care leaver complained that the council had failed to legal route to get to the UK. regularise his immigration status and failed to secure The Minister rightly says that we have been very him British citizenship and a passport, which meant he generous in this country through various other schemes, could not travel or work. That complaint was upheld. and I agree. Some 7,400 family reunion visas were The Government did not vote against the amendment issued in the year to March, and there is also the in the Lords, so what has changed between then and vulnerable persons resettlement scheme and the hugely tonight? This is a great opportunity for the Government successful Dubs scheme, under which 480 children have to show why such a provision is necessary, without come here. Like everybody, I pay tribute to Saint Alf adding a single additional person to the immigration Dubs for the fantastic work he does for this cause. It figures, if that is what they are actually worried about. was a privilege to go to the United Nations and the Zaatari camp in Jordan with him. Of course, the Dubs 7.45 pm scheme is full, and none of those other schemes is Given events of recent days and weeks, Lords currently operating. From 1 January, there will be no amendment 4 on family reunion is more necessary than effective mandatory family reunion scheme either, and ever. It was strongly supported in the Lords, by 317 there will be no safe and legal route for these children to votes to 223. Many Members, including me, supported come to the UK. the same amendment in the Commons. We were told I am tough on the illegal migrant channel crossings. I before that there was no need to put such amendments think many of those people who can afford to pay in Brexit legislation, as it would bind the hands of the people smugglers are effectively jumping the queue negotiators. Then we were told in June that we could ahead of those who are in refugee camps, who are going leave it to the negotiators and it would be part of through due process and who are abiding by the rules. If negotiations, despite the fact that in May the Government we are going to be tough—and, gosh, we need to be produced a Command Paper which removed all the tougher on those routes, which line the pockets of mandatory requirements on the Government to facilitate people smugglers—we need to make sure we have alternative family reunions and will make a child’s right to join safe and legal routes for those genuine vulnerable refugees, their relatives entirely discretionary. The text of the particularly children, to whom we have a duty of care Command Paper intentionally avoids providing rights and can offer a safe haven in this country. to children, has no appeal process and attempts to be Of course, this has come at the worst time, as we beyond the reach of the UK courts. heard from the Labour Front Bencher, after the fires As we have heard, before the mandatory Dublin III in Lesbos at the beginning of September, in camps provisions were brought in, just 11 children per year that were already five times over capacity, with over came to this country under the scheme. Since 2016, the 13,000 people residing in a centre built for 2,757. There average number rescued—because that is what they are now more than 1,600 unaccompanied children on are—has been over 500. It worked well, so we need a the Greek islands, many whose basic needs are not mandatory scheme, but there is no mandatory scheme being met, and many of these children have chronic 829 Immigration and Social Security 19 OCTOBER 2020 Immigration and Social Security 830 Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill [Tim Loughton] but I still believe that indefinite detention is immoral and unjustified. I have not heard a justifiable rationale illnesses. As of last week, there were more than 300 covid for it yet; it is unjustifiable. cases on Lesbos alone, with a hospital that has capacity We hear about the difficult and hard stories and we for just 50 people. These are deeply vulnerable children, hear about the excessive cases. If someone breaks the dangerously exposed to people traffickers and other law in this country, then we should arrest them and put exploitation. them through due process. If somebody is going through Some 7% of these children are under the age of 14, an immigration application process, we should not put yet we have no scheme to deal with them, despite having them in custody without any sense of how long the taken many reunification cases earlier in the year for process will take. We should treat them as we would such children. France has taken 350, Portugal 500, and wish to be treated: humanly and humanely. Belgium, Croatia, Finland, Germany, Ireland, Latvia, I will use the remainder of my speech to touch on Lithuania and Slovenia are taking these children. What amendment 9. I am pleased to speak in support of this are we doing about it, Minister? The Government have amendment, which was supported in the other place said we do not have places for them, but more than through a powerful speech made by my colleague 30 local authorities have identified 1,400 places if the Lord Morrow, who as a private Member in the Northern Government will make the scheme work and will pay Ireland Assembly brought through our seminal Human the cost of it. Trafficking and Exploitation (Criminal Justice and Support We need a Dubs 2, and we need a family reunion for Victims) Act (Northern Ireland) 2015. To those who scheme, regardless of Brexit. We need it. We have a talk about the United Kingdom Government bringing great tradition of saving these children; if we do not forward modern slavery legislation that is the best in the have it in this Bill, come 1 January, we will have no safe world, I say that it started in Northern Ireland. We are and legal route for very, very vulnerable children. proud of that record. We are the first devolved Administration to bring forward such legislation, and Several hon. Members rose— we are proud of what was achieved. I listened carefully to the opening remarks made by Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Order. the Minister. I am grateful to him for a telephone After the next speaker the time limit will be reduced to conversation we had earlier today, and for the subsequent four minutes. I give that warning in advance so that correspondence that he has shared. I think he knows Members can prepare if necessary. from the tenor of contributions made by the right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP): It is a pleasure Duncan Smith) and others that there is still work to be to follow the hon. Member for East Worthing and done on amendment 9, and on changing the terms of Shoreham (Tim Loughton), who made a powerful the guidance available. I recognise the development that contribution not only on amendments 3 and 6 but right he has brought forward this afternoon, but I am still not the way through his comments. It is a testament to sure from what we have heard that we should be convinced the House that almost every contribution thus far has that that is a good enough reason for this House to been on the right track and has exuded the compassion agree with the Government and disagree with the Lords that we want to show as a country, and none more so amendment. than that of the right hon. Member for Staffordshire The challenge is that any trafficked person from an Moorlands (Karen Bradley); I was greatly enthralled by EEA territory who arrives in the UK after 31 December what she had to say and agree with the sentiments she will only have one long-term route to recovering expressed. discretionary leave to remain, whereas today, they have On amendment 5, the Government have engaged two. While the commitment to automatic consideration financial privilege. They are asking this House to disagree is progress, it does not change the fact that the then on the grounds of the financial implications of the Government Minister spoke to the Select Committee proof of status document and for no other reason: on Work and Pensions in 2017 as part of that Committee’s engaging financial privilege means that is the rationale inquiry on victims of modern slavery, and said that for asking us to disagree to amendment 5. I ask the there must be Minister to reflect on that in his comments. If the only “exceptional or compelling reasons to justify a grant” issue is finance—if he recognises that a biometric residence of discretionary leave to remain. One has to go through permit, for example, is available for less than £20—I freedom of information requests—it should not be so hope that, should there be a subsequent attempt in the difficult to get this information from the Home Office—to other place to insert a similar amendment without establish that 8% to 9% of applications from those proposed subsection (2), the Government will agree to certified as victims of modern slavery get discretionary it, because the argument is not only about digitalisation leave to remain. That is far too low, and it is something and the difficulties associated with online information, that the Government need to consider. I fail to see why but about people’ssincere desire to hold a permit outlining confirmed victims losing their right to recovery through their status. The Government should engage with this treaty rights will be particularly reassured by the issue thoughtfully. commitment that they will automatically be considered I have spoken on a number of occasions in this for something that, unlike recourse to public funds House on indefinite detention, and the Minister knows through their treaty rights, is only given in an exceptional that I have quite a rigid position on the issue. I supported situation. more keenly amendments that were previously before The other difficulty with the idea that the introduction this House that at least gave the opportunity for an of automatic assessment for discretionary leave to remain extension of an additional 28 days. I thought that gave is an effective replacement for recourse to public funds Government more latitude in exceptional circumstances, through treaty rights is that discretionary leave to remain 831 Immigration and Social Security 19 OCTOBER 2020 Immigration and Social Security 832 Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill is discretionary. It is not a right, but clause 12 makes it a 8 pm right; Lords amendment 9 makes it a right. If a confirmed victim of modern slavery who is an EEA national meets Nadia Whittome: It is a privilege to follow the hon. the criteria in subsection (2), their access to leave to Member for Ynys Môn (Virginia Crosbie), who speaks remain will no longer be discretionary, and that is what with expertise and passion about healthcare in her we should strive to achieve. constituency. It is a privilege, too, to speak to Lords amendment 1, which would require an independent Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Order. assessment of the impact of ending free movement on The time limit is now reduced to four minutes. the social care sector. Virginia Crosbie (Ynys Môn) (Con): It is a pleasure It was not so long ago that everyone in this House to speak in this debate, and to follow the hon. Member hailed our key workers as heroes and we stood on our for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson), who speaks with doorsteps and clapped for our carers. It is care workers, such compassion. As a child, I remember being told, cleaners, cooks and delivery drivers who keep this country “Virginia, life just isn’t fair”, but why can life not be running, but they are also the people this Bill would fair? I believe in fairly rewarding people for the hard keep out of the country. One in five health and social work they do. I believe in using our hard-earned taxpayers’ care workers was born outside the UK. When I was money fairly and responsibly to honour the effort that a care worker, I worked alongside talented and dedicated has been put into generating it, and I believe we must carers from Zambia, Spain, Italy; we worked long hours fairly give our gratitude to those who help others, such to look after elderly people, yet the Government have as Roy Fyles and the many hidden heroes who do so the cheek to call them low skilled and to say that they much for others in my constituency. do not belong here. While we have been a member of the EU and have When I went back to work during the pandemic, I been abiding by the principle of free movement of had to retrain. My day would look like this: getting up people, we have been unable to make our immigration at five; making notes during handover; administering system fair, but that is now changing. As we near the medication; dealing with someone who had had a fall; end of the transition period, we are greeted with many hoisting someone twice my size, and being alert at all new opportunities: from 1 January, we will give priority times to small changes that might indicate a serious to those with the highest skills and the greatest talent— medical problem. I would try my best to brighten someone’s scientists, engineers, academics and other highly skilled day and make them feel valued, knowing that I would workers—so that we are better equipped to deal with probably be the only person they saw that day, all while the challenges of the 21st century, whether those be meticulously recording everything that happened on the need for increased numbers of science, technology, every call. engineering and mathematics professionals, or of Our key workers are not low skilled; they are underpaid. doctors. They should be rewarded with a pay rise, not threatened As the Member of Parliament for Ynys Môn, I with deportation. The purpose of the Bill is to close our receive many letters and emails from my constituents borders with Europe. Those who make over £25,600 a who simply cannot get an appointment with a doctor in year will be allowed in, and those who are paid less will Holyhead. These services are vital for their health and be kept out. That is what a points-based system looks wellbeing. One of my constituents, Mr Barry Smith, like. It is free movement for those who can afford it and wrote in desperation: “There are two GP surgeries in a hostile environment for everyone else. Holyhead, Longford and Cambria, who for some time have not had consistent or regular doctors. Is there This Bill will not solve the problems my community anything you can do to bring forward a solution to the faces. It is not foreigners taking away jobs; it is this dire shortage of GPs in Holyhead?” Government refusing to extend the furlough scheme. It What is the solution? Keith Amos, head of service for is not migrants running the NHS into the ground; they managed practices, and his team at Betsi Cadwaladr are keeping it going. If the Minister is so committed to have been working hard to ensure that my constituents increasing wages, I urge him to listen to the Migration can access the healthcare support that they need on the Advisory Committee and increase the wages of care island, whether that is e-consultation, paramedics or workers to at least £10 an hour. Whether you are a occupational therapy, but there is an ongoing struggle retired miner from Mansfield, a Deliveroo rider in to recruit GPs. Today, he told me: “In north Wales Nottingham or a Bulgarian mum who cleans this very we are desperately short of GPs. The key is that we building, we have more in common with one another recruit doctors with the right qualifications.” However, than we ever will with those who try to divide us. We all a long-term solution is in sight. I am pleased to say want to protect our families. We all want to contribute that Bangor University’s new four-year graduate entry to our communities. We all know what it is like to have medical degree with Cardiff University is unique, and no power, and we all know that it is Ministers who are the pro vice-chancellor for learning and teaching said making people powerless. that she is delighted to be working with Cardiff on We have an enormous privilege as Members of this that step change. But what about the here and now? House, but being paid £80k a year does not make our How can I help my Ynys Môn constituents get access to lives worth any more than those of people being paid a GP? £8.72 an hour. We have a responsibility to vote for Let me conclude by saying that we have one of these amendments and to treat people—our neighbours, the best healthcare systems in the world, and I pay our friends, our co-workers—who were born on a tribute to everyone in it. The Bill will give us flexibility different soil in the way that we would want to be to recruit medical professionals from abroad and in treated ourselves and the way that we would want our specific areas. families to be treated. 833 Immigration and Social Security 19 OCTOBER 2020 Immigration and Social Security 834 Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill Richard Fuller (North East Bedfordshire) (Con): It is Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD): Like other hon. Members, a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Nottingham I rise to speak to Lords amendments 4 and 5. Lords East (Nadia Whittome), who spoke so eloquently about amendment 5 would ensure that EU citizens received the impact of Lords amendment 1 and the importance physical proof of settled status if they request it. of wages for people who do some of the most important The Government have responded to calls for physical work in our country. proof by saying that digital status I will speak to Lords amendment 6, which would “cannot be lost, stolen, damaged or tampered with.” place a time limit on immigration detention and was What a great argument. Why don’t we move to digital moved so well by the noble Baroness Hamwee in the passports next? For EU citizens living in the UK, their other place. Immigration detention is the ghastliest settled status certification could soon have similar aspect of the failed immigration system we inherited importance to a passport. Also, the Government’sresponse from the last Labour Government. However, we can no is simply not true. Digital data is regularly lost and longer apportion the blame to them, because it was so stolen. It is also not true that digital data cannot be very long ago. damaged or tampered with. The3million has heard of This amendment provides an opportunity for the just that from an EU citizen—the photograph of her Government to start to modify the worst aspect of digital status has been swapped with another, without immigration detention, which is that we never tell people her knowledge or consent. when they will come out. That is the most atrocious thing to do to anyone. Those of us who have been Some 22% of people do not have the essential digital through the national lockdown or quarantine know skills for day-to-day life in the UK. Those who struggle how psychologically debilitating it can be. Imagine being with digital skills will not be able to access their status in that position and never knowing when you will come when they need it without further help. It will mean out. widespread discrimination in a number of areas from This is an opportunity to make change. This is an finding employment or a place to live to opening a bank amendment that the Government could have adopted. account. A survey from the Residential Landlords It is an amendment that screams, “We can do better. Association found that 20% of landlords are less likely Please accept this.” The Minister said in his opening to consider renting to EU or EEA nationals simply remarks that 28 days was a very short limit. Of course, because it is becoming very complicated. Is it any the Government had the opportunity to put in their wonder that the lack of physical documentation is own limit, if they had wished to. They did not do that. causing real anxiety? Digital simply does not work. It is another indication of the lost opportunity we see Lack of physical documentation will have very real with this amendment today. consequences for EU citizens living in the UK. Amendment 5 simply ensures that EU citizens have the Unfortunately I do not compliment the Minister on same quality of life, housing and employment. The this too often, but I was very pleased that he did not use callous disregard of this Government for people and the usual Home Office trope that putting a time limit on their rights because we have left the EU has been immigration detention would let out the rapists, the sickening, and I simply do not believe that that is what murderers and all the other people they like to scare the British people voted for. others about. As he well knows, that argument does not hold water. There were 24,500 or so people in detention I urge Members to protect children and families by in 2019, of whom 26% were detained for more than supporting amendment 4. I simply cannot understand 28 days. That is 6,373 people—a vast number—who the cruelty that has driven this Government to decide were detained for over 28 days. That has nothing to do not to guarantee family reunion. What has become of with failures in the criminal justice system in processing this once tolerant nation whose rules were based on a people’s immigration claims while they are in prison. humane response to tragedy and hardship? All too As the Minister indicated in his speech and as others often, it is now children who lose their lives in the have said, we are looking towards a new system that dangerous attempts to be reunited with a family member. promises to speed up application processes and make Those children are already traumatised by conflict, loss our asylum system more effective. I say gently to him of family members, destitution and fear for their lives. that the Government cannot speed up a broken immigration Families must be together, and the UK should guarantee system without causing more harm. It is better first to that. Removing safe and legal routes to the UK is cruel recognise the failures in the system we have before and counterproductive. Again, this is such a shame seeking to speed the process up, thinking that that will given that we once had a humane and compassionate somehow provide a solution. response to people in hardship. It simply increases the It is for that reason that I am so disappointed the risk of dangerous journeys and exploitation by criminal Government have not taken this opportunity to put in a gangs and we have already heard much about that this time limit or to say, “We understand the psychological evening. problems that come when we detain someone without Research from the UN High Commissioner for Refugees telling them they can leave.” As the Government come shows that children are especially likely to resort to forward with the new system, I want them to say, people smuggling when access to family reunion is “When someone comes here to claim asylum, we will delayed or at risk. What is more, our communities are provide them with access to the best psychological ready to support unaccompanied children, to give them resources, so that we can understand what underpins a home and a chance to rebuild their lives. Councils why they have sought asylum.” I want people to have have pledged 1,400 places for unaccompanied child the best access to legal aid and legal rights so that their refugees in Europe if only the Government would provide claim can be made with the greatest precision and so them with a legal route. It is inexplicable that this that honourable claims for asylum have the best chance Government are not prepared to support the efforts of of being heard and recognised. councils and local people whose hearts are simply in the 835 Immigration and Social Security 19 OCTOBER 2020 Immigration and Social Security 836 Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill right place. We have a choice about the sort of country under the EU settlement scheme, if a child in care or that we want to be: do we callously turn our backs on care leaver misses the deadline, they will still be able to those most in need, or do we uphold the values of obtain lawful status in the UK. compassion and humanity? I have not given up on The Home Office has said that late application cases urging the Government to listen to compassion and will be considered on their individual merits, that it will humanity. I urge the Government and Members across take a pragmatic approach and that guidance for case- the House to please do the right thing. workers will be published to ensure that cases are considered consistently. The situation might be in the forefront of Sally-Ann Hart (Hastings and Rye) (Con): I welcome our minds now, and those of Home Office caseworkers, this Bill, which ends free movement, takes back control but might not be in 10 years’ time, so I urge the Home of our borders, delivers on people’s priorities and paves Office to ensure that the guidance actually details that, the way for a modern, fairer, points-based immigration in the case of looked-after children and care leavers, if system that will welcome skilled workers from across the necessary EU settlement scheme paperwork has not the world to contribute to the United Kingdom’seconomy, been lodged at the appropriate time by a social worker communities and public services. or local authority, those are reasonable grounds and, as I want to consider the amendment that proposes that such, the late application will be accepted. children of EEA and Swiss nationals who are in care or entitled to care leavers’ support are granted automatic Fleur Anderson (Putney) (Lab): I am honoured to indefinite leave to remain under the EU settlement speak in this important debate in support of the Lords scheme. The Government have legislated through the amendments, particularly Lords amendments 4 and 5, EU withdrawal agreement Act to protect the residence which are reasonable amendments that were supported rights of EEA and Swiss citizens and their family by great majorities in the Lords. Amendment 5 provides members who are in the UK by the end of the transition an option of providing physical proof of immigration period. In addition, the Government fully opened the status under the EU settlement scheme to prevent EU settlement scheme to such citizens and their family disenfranchisement of EU citizens. members in March last year. In Wandsworth, there are 41,000 EU nationals, which The concern is that if eligible children are not identified is 13% of my constituents, so this is a big issue for my and supported into the scheme, they will be at risk of constituents in Putney. Two of those constituents, who being left here unlawfully through no fault of their own. have lived in the UK for 30 years, are French citizens This amendment would give EEA and Swiss children and classical musicians with settled status in this country. who are currently in the UK a default safety net to They have written to me and said: “Weare very concerned qualify under the EU settlement scheme if it were later by the fact that we have no physical way of proving our found out that the necessary paperwork had not been status when we come back from holidays or trips abroad, lodged at the appropriate time by either a social worker and we are afraid that at any moment a similar situation or a local authority. No matter the circumstances in to the Windrush population might happen to Europeans which these children find themselves here, they are who’ve settled in this country.” innocent and, on the face of it, this amendment would Moreover, Citizens Advice Wandsworth workers who be a sensible and humane measure to take. We cannot support EU citizens are concerned about that aspect of have another Windrush-type situation where children the Bill. Access to proof of settled status requires who have been legally in the UK for most of their lives digital skills, access to the internet and a suitable device. apply later for a job or for accommodation as adults, Time and again, they have seen that vulnerable people only to find that there is no trace of them through no find it difficult or impossible to view or prove their fault of their own. status. That means that they are unable to prove their It is of concern that looked-after children and care rights in the UK when they are seeking job opportunities, leavers who currently call the UK home are at risk of finding a place to live or even getting treatment in being left undocumented if they do not receive settled hospital. They find that they are discriminated against status through the EU settlement scheme. The Government in those circumstances because they cannot have the have acknowledged that just 40% of identified looked-after physical documentation that they need to prove their children and care leavers have had applications made on status. That cannot be right. their behalf some 18 months since the launch of the EU Lords amendment 4 allows unaccompanied children settlement scheme, which is extremely worrying. However, and vulnerable adults to claim asylum in the care and the Government have confirmed that they have focused context of their family, which will prevent dangerous on working closely with local authorities to ensure that journeys from being taken to join them. I have been to vulnerable groups get UK immigration status under the the camps in Calais—they were not really camps; they scheme. I urge them to continue to support local authorities were a lot of bushes in an area near Calais—and I have in those endeavours. seen the traffickers circling the area. I know that if any of my children were in that camp and their siblings were 8.15 pm just across the channel waiting and able to protect The Government issued guidance this year regarding them, I would do everything I could to reunite my children in care and care leavers. They have emphasised family members. To narrow it down to just parents is their commitment to provide protection for all vulnerable not fair when many have lost their parents—that is why children. I have been reassured that Ministers have they fled their country and why we can rescue those been clear from the start that, under the EU settlement children and show compassion. scheme, where an eligible person has missed the deadline, On 20 December last year, the Prime Minister stood the Home Office will accept late applications where at the Dispatch Box and stated that the Government there are reasonable grounds for doing so. Therefore, were “absolutely committed”to continuing family reunion. 837 Immigration and Social Security 19 OCTOBER 2020 Immigration and Social Security 838 Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill [Fleur Anderson] and care visa, which will be available for people to use to come to this country to work in the NHS. That is A Home Office statement on 15 January used exactly very important. the same language, saying it was I conclude by saying that I am happy to support this “absolutely committed to the family reunion of refugee families”. Bill and will be voting to reject the Lords amendments, There has been commitment after commitment to family because I will be fulfilling my promise to my constituents reunion, yet it is not in a good enough state in the Bill. to end free movement of labour,to introduce a points-based That will leave children such as Lili, who fled Eritrea and system and to deliver on a firm but fairer immigration was found by Safe Passage on the streets of Rome, in a system for this country. highly vulnerable situation, instead of being reunited with her brother as she was.She wants to be a computer engineer. Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): This That is compassion—to allow those children to be here. is a thoroughly depressing Bill, one that is entirely To conclude, unless we act tonight, 2021 will be the political and deeply impractical. That is the kind of Bill, year in which child refugees in Europe lose the only safe or Act, as it will become, that does not stand the test of legal route to sanctuary in the UK. Voting against this time. That we are celebrating the loss of the freedom of amendment would be quite wrong. I urge Members on British people and thinking it is a good thing would be both sides of the House—we have heard good arguments comical if it were not so tragic, confident though I am from Members on both sides for this—to think of that this will not last. children such as Lili, do the right thing and vote for Let us look at some of the details. The Lords Lords amendment 4. It is time to show our British amendments are entirely practical and reasonable. Indeed values of compassion and justice, and to deliver for the Minister himself has accepted that, in principle at refugee children. least, some of them fit that description. I want to focus on Lords amendments 4 and 5. Lords amendment 4 Gary Sambrook (Birmingham, Northfield) (Con): I would of course provide the opportunity for family have been pleased to support this Bill throughout its reunion—a safe and legal route. The Home Secretary passage, particularly for its two primary aims of ending herself, at the Conservative party conference just a few free movement of labour and introducing a points-based weeks ago, talked about the importance of safe and system. I wish to focus mostly on Lords amendment 1 legal routes, but of course we are sleepwalking out of and social care. As has been discussed, the amendment one of the safe and legal routes we currently have, the would require the Government to publish a report on Dublin settlement, with no sign of any kind of meaningful the impact of ending free movement of labour on the replacement to take its place. If we are—and I am sure social care sector. I spoke on Second Reading and all of us here are—outraged and filled with compassion served on the Bill Committee, and at every stage of my and horror at what we have seen in recent times as involvement in this Bill I have heard Opposition Member people have made the death-defying journey across the after Opposition Member try to claim that in some way channel in rickety boats, taking desperate risks because the only way to fix labour shortages in the UK is by they are desperate people, the answer is most certainly immigration. I simply do not agree with that analysis. to provide safe and legal routes. Lords amendment 4 In the Committee stage, we heard from Brian Bell, the gives the Government the opportunity to have a safe MAC’s interim chair, that only 5% of social care workers and legal route, and to reject it is music to the ears of come from EU migration. In constituencies such as the human traffickers. I do not yet understand why the mine, unemployment is standing at 10.5%. Are the Government seek to turn down such a route via either Opposition genuinely trying to say that these jobs in the compassion or practical application. social care sector are not ones that more than 6,000 people On amendment 5, it seems an absolute no-brainer in my constituency can have and that they are out of that EU citizens with settled status granted to them by reach for my constituents? I do not agree. this Government should have physical proof of that Immigration plays a very important role in managing status. I have had a number of my constituents in touch labour markets, but it does not solve all the problems with me recently who are deeply concerned about the all the time. The Government are tackling this issue lack of physical documentation. I talked to a person of social care head on; we have seen the investment of working for a local school and people working in hospitality £1.5 billion in adult and children’s social care, along in Windermere and in Kendal who are concerned about with a national recruitment campaign for the sector. I the lengthy multi-step process involving passport, date absolutely support those two things. The Chair of the of birth and a unique one-off code sent to their phone, Home Affairs Committee, the right hon. Member for their employer’s email addresses, business details and Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper), both accessing the Government’s website separately. made a fair point about the MAC suggestion about pay. Members have already spoken of the occasional tendency Every Conservative Member stood on a manifesto that for Government IT schemes not to work completely pledged to look at social care and, importantly, at a way perfectly. Like other issues that we are talking about of redesigning it so that it is fairer for those who are tonight, this has huge resonance with the appalling cared for, their families and carers too. That is very Windrush scandal. While there may be some debate as important, and it is incumbent on all of us that we come to which Government bears responsibility for the heartbreak to some kind of consensus across this House on that of the Windrush scandal, there will be absolutely no system. In the same way as we see a consensus on the doubt whatever who is to blame for this one. They saw it NHS, we need to come to one on social care. coming and they voted for it. On the NHS, there will be times, including now, when Comments were made earlier about the minimum there are gaps in the labour market, which is why I am income salary threshold. The Lake district hospitality pleased that the Bill contains provision for the health industry is possibly the most hard-hit part of the UK 839 Immigration and Social Security 19 OCTOBER 2020 Immigration and Social Security 840 Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill economy as a result of the coronavirus. May I point out people the right to migrate to Britain based on their also that 20,000 people working in that industry are merit rather than the colour of their passport. Fairness from outside the UK, and if we say to 90% of them, is allowing the people of Britain to choose who we need “You are not welcome here unless you’re earning a to strengthen our society and our economy, rather than figure that your employers cannot afford to pay”, that being forced to take anybody and everybody. Fairness is would deal an appalling hand to, and damage massively, giving EU citizens in the UK the right to apply for an industry that is struggling to cope with the covid settled status and giving UK nationals until March 2022 crisis? It is time for politics that is more practical and to bring family members to the UK. The immigration Bill less political. does all these things. This is fairness. Lords amendment 2, however, is simply not fair and it is not right. How can Alexander Stafford (Rother Valley) (Con): It is always this House condone a biased system? We want a system a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Westmorland of equality and a system of fairness, and this amendment and Lonsdale (Tim Farron), and although we will not undermines that completely. agree on much, I am sure we both agree that immigration Fairness does matter to the people of Rother Valley has often brought many delights to this country. In fact, and EU freedom of movement was never fair, being as I am sure the hon. Gentleman knows, my grandparents blatantly discriminatory towards non-EU countries in on my mother’s side—Paul Kreciglowa and his wife Lilly favour of countries that are largely white and highly —were refugees in the second world war. My grandfather developed. That is not what the Opposition will tell us. was in a gulag in Siberia and managed to get out by We have much more in common with our friends in the fighting against Nazi Germany. My mother was born in Commonwealth than with many people in the European a displaced persons camp, and they settled here. It has Union, but this Bill makes it fair for everyone with the brought many delights to my family, so it is a cause that right skills to come and settle in our country. That is is very close to my heart. Nevertheless, we have to have why the Bill, unamended, is right. a sensible immigration policy that we have control over and in which we actually have the right to say who we want and who we do not want in this country. I fear that Bell Ribeiro-Addy (Streatham) (Lab): Much has happened the Lords amendments would undermine our ability to since the last time we debated the Bill in this House. We take back control of our lives. sawthe worst of the pandemic, and we sawthe ill-conceived words spoken in this House about who was low-skilled Many people in Rother Valley voted to leave the completely disproven, as those same people were our European Union because they wanted control over key workers who continue to see us through these their lives, and they wanted control of many issues, tumultuous times. It was refreshing to see some of the including immigration. This Bill, unamended, does take regular scare stories about migrants displaced by splashes control back of our immigration system. Unfortunately, about migrant key workers. This Bill and the Government’s if we were to accept these Lords amendments we would points-based system, which is not legislated for in the undermine what I think is a key aspect of this Bill, and Bill, does not recognise that. that is fairness. To me, fairness is one of the most important things in life, and fairness is one of the most The Institute for Public Policy Research shows that the important things to residents of Rother Valley. These income threshold would mean that 69% of EU nationals amendments undermine fairness and I will highlight currently here would not even be eligible to enter the that in the short time I have available. country under these new rules. The trade union, Unison, has explained that there will be 122,000 shortages in social care, with projections from think tanks explaining 8.30 pm that that could be up to 250,000 by 2030. This does not For instance, Lords amendment 2 seeks to ensure even help our workforce, our skills shortage or our that UK nationals in the EEA or Switzerland have economy, so what logical reason could there be not to lifetime rights to bring their close family members to have an impact assessment, as suggested in Lords the UK on EU free movement terms, instead of under amendment 1, unless it is a purely ideological one? the UK’s family immigration rules. To me and to many I will take some time to debunk some myths about residents in Rother Valley and across the House, this is refugees. Refugees are not obligated to claim asylum in desperately unfair. The purpose of the immigration Bill the first safe country that they land in, and we are not is to guarantee that EU and non-EU citizens will be overrun with refugees. In fact, we are below the European dealt with equally for the purposes of immigration. My average for asylum applications, with countries such as grandparents, despite coming from eastern Europe, were Germany, France, Spain and Greece all seeing between not members of the European Union, but they were two and four times as many as the UK, and 85% of all treated fairly and they could settle here, and they could refugees live in developing countries. Our country has a raise my mother and she could raise me. We did not proud tradition of accepting refugees, most notably the need the EU to do that—they were treated fairly. EU Kindertransport children, such as Lord Dubs, and I freedom of movement will no longer apply, so why fully support Lords amendment 4 to continue arrangements would we continue to favour EU citizens under the old to maintain unaccompanied child refugees and family European rules? This is biased. This is against fairness. reunion. It makes no sense. This Lords amendment seeks to create a perpetual right for EU citizens over and above As the hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham everyone else, which is exactly what we voted to end. (Tim Loughton) rightly said, without this amendment, there will be no safe and legal routes for vulnerable The Government seek to build a new immigration people. The idea that we would just turn away the most system based on fairness. Fairness is treating all people vulnerable is a disgrace, but so is a lot of this Government’s the same, regardless of nationality. Fairness is giving legislation of late. As the great Tony Benn once said, 841 Immigration and Social Security 19 OCTOBER 2020 Immigration and Social Security 842 Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill [Bell Ribeiro-Addy] those who have come here already and served this country so well, particularly during the pandemic. It “The way a government treats refugees is very instructive cannot be the case that we cannot choose to change our because it shows you how they would treat the rest of us if they system because we believe that that is somehow offensive thought they could get away with it.” to people who are already here. We are not proposing to The Government have to understand why, following throw people out who are here legally. We are saying the ongoing Windrush scandal, EU nationals will not that we choose a different future—a future that the be content without physical proof of their status, for British people chose when they chose to leave the European which Lords amendment 5 rightfully makes provision. I Union and end free movement. have said it before, and I will say it again: this is the I turn to Lords amendment 2. Under the terms of the second time in a decade that a Conservative Government withdrawal agreement, EU citizens who settled here have retrospectively changed the rights of migrants before the end of the transition period can apply for after they have settled in this country. Why should any settled status, so that the rights they currently enjoy are migrant feel secure? guaranteed. That is absolutely right. It was negotiated On the 28-day limit to immigration detention, the in good faith with the EU, and it applies both ways. But Minister has said again and again that there is no after the end of the transition period, it is right that indefinite detention, so I would like to know, what is the EU and non-EU citizens should be treated in the current limit? I am heartened by the cross-party support same way. There should not be discrimination based on that Lords amendment 6 has received and by the release citizenship, and therefore EU citizens should meet the of a number of immigration detainees during the pandemic, same requirements set out by our immigration rules— but recent outbreaks in Dungavel and Brook House the points-based system that we will introduce—as have caused a lot of concern. We have already heard non-EU citizens. about how much is paid out in claims of false detention. Lords amendment 2 would provide preferential family Nearly 70% of those in immigration detention are reunion rights under EU free movement law indefinitely. eventually released and allowed to remain in the UK. The result would be that family members of such UK Private companies such as Serco and G4S are paid by nationals could forever bypass the immigration rules the Government to hold them. It has to end. that would otherwise apply to family members of other I am proud that the Labour party has consistently UK nationals. It would be unfair to other UK nationals and unequivocally stood up to this reactionary Bill wishing to live in the UK with family members from since its inception and all its iterations. Our hon. Friends other countries outside the EEA and Switzerland. The in the other place have done a sterling job in amending British people voted to ensure the creation of a new some of the most reactionary parts of the Bill, and I immigration system built on fairness, not on nationality. support every single one of their amendments. They The creation of a lifetime right for one group of nationals have tabled these amendments with consideration and would undoubtedly be unfair on other UK citizens compassion to a piece of legislation that so fundamentally living overseas who have family members from other impacts the lives of others. It is a disgrace that the parts of the world. When free movement ends, we Government intend to vote these amendments down, should treat family members of all UK nationals living and I wholeheartedly believe that they will sincerely abroad equally. We have given a clear date of 29 March regret this decision. 2022 for people to bring close family members to the UK. That is fair. We are giving sufficient time for people to make changes if they wish to do so, but after that we Aaron Bell (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Con): It is a will treat everybody the same. pleasure to follow my namesake, the hon. Member for Streatham (Bell Ribeiro-Addy). This Bill is about ending I do not have time to go over the other Lords free movement. It is not the place for broader changes amendments, but by rejecting them we will pass the Bill to immigration policy in the areas of detention, asylum as it was written. It a historic, important Bill. It is and care. As ever, the amendments made in the other absolutely clear that delivering control of our borders, place are a mixture of the well-meaning but unnecessary both in terms of the total numbers who come here and and those that seek to undercut this Government’s the skills that people bring with them, was what the manifesto commitments. I urge noble Members to reflect British people—and my constituents in Newcastle-under- on the fact that we have won a majority for these Lyme—voted for, and that is what the Bill will let us measures. Those of us on the leave side also won the do. I am happy to vote to bring the Bill one step closer referendum, and continually trying to frustrate what we to law. have repeatedly put to the British people is not a good Kim Johnson (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab): I am pleased way for the other place to proceed. to speak in support of the Lords amendments. I am In the brief time I have, I would like to speak about proud to come from Liverpool, a city built on immigration Lords amendments 1 and 2. As the Migration Advisory from all corners of the world, which has contributed to Committee and the Minister have said, immigration is the diversity and vibrancy of our culture and history not the solution to the challenges of the social care and is what makes Liverpool great and the best city in system. It depresses wages, and bowing to pressure to the world. Liverpool is home to the longest-established exempt it from these rules, in the hope of increasing black, Chinese, Yemeni and Somali communities, who pay, makes no sense. I was struck by the eloquent have contributed massively to the development of our speech from the hon. Member for Nottingham East city. We have faced and continue to face discrimination (Nadia Whittome) about her experience in the care and oppression, but despite that I am deeply proud that sector, and I pay tribute to her work in the sector before Liverpool is a city of sanctuary, welcoming people and during the pandemic. But our desire to change the fleeing wars and oppression, with the devastation that immigration system in the future is not to denigrate that brings. 843 Immigration and Social Security 19 OCTOBER 2020 Immigration and Social Security 844 Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill As a black woman, I am appalled by this Government’s an adult and appropriate way—into the migration debate. treatment of asylum seekers, refugees and many migrants If we do that, we run the risk of pigeonholing it and not who seek to come here to contribute to our society. We having the full broad-brush debate we need that covers witnessed the injustice of the Windrush generation, everything from conditions to pay to the expectations who came here after the war, at the invitation of the we have of the sector. British Government, to help to rebuild the country. We took their service, their contributions and their taxes; 8.45 pm then, towards the end of their lives, we took away their Hon. and right hon. Members across the House have citizenship. been absolutely right when they have said that during I know from first-hand experience the contribution these times our social care workers have been heroes that so many of our migrants—especially those in the and it is about time we start giving them the respect they care sector, in our NHS, in care homes and in the deserve—no more so than in my area of Sandwell, domiciliary care sector—have made to our society, but which has been one of the boroughs hardest hit by the their reward is to be undervalued and poorly paid. The pandemic. They have been on the frontline. I do not Home Secretary’s proposed immigration system does support the amendment because I think we run the risk not even count workers in the social care sector as of pigeonholing our social care workers in that way. My skilled. Care workers, who are low paid but in reality hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Northfield highly skilled, are an essential workforce for our most (Gary Sambrook) is not in his place at the moment, but vulnerable residents, yet they do not even rate a mention he raised the point that the Government have valued in the Home Secretary’s plans. The average salary for a their commitment to social care. It was in the manifesto. care worker is £19,104, meaning that they do not reach We have seen the start of that through the £1.5 million the £26,500 threshold that she proposes. promise, but, again, we need to keep having that debate. We currently have a national shortage of 100,000 care On Lords amendment 2, look, my constituency voted workers—or we did before covid—and projections show 70% to leave the European Union. One reason it did so that that could double by 2030. We have a growing, is that it wanted an immigration system that was a fair ageing population, with many people with complex playing field. How is it fair when we create a two-tier health needs, including dementia. We are going to need immigration system that favours one group over another? more care workers, not fewer, so why has social care That is my concern. Under the EU system, I could go to been excluded from the shortage occupation list? Because Paris and meet someone, have a family and bring everyone this Government do not value them. over, but if I met someone from outside the EU or the The pandemic has shown, like nothing else has or EEA, they would be under the points-based system. I will, the crucial role that care workers play in keeping do not understand how that can be perceived as fair. our elderly and vulnerable citizens safe and cared for. They put their lives on the line every day without Stuart C. McDonald: Will the hon. Gentleman give sufficient safeguards, yet the IPPR found that 79% of way? the EEA employees working full time in the UK would be ineligible to work in the UK under the skills and Shaun Bailey: I am really sorry, but I have not got the salary threshold that the Government want to impose. time. I am more than happy to pick up with the hon. As a former Liverpool City Council worker who worked Gentleman outside the Chamber if he wishes. [Laughter.] in adult social care, I know only too well the crucial I am always open to a debate, Mr Deputy Speaker. I work that carers undertake, often without recognition, have been very open-minded in this place. on low pay and with zero-hours and precarious contracts. I am conscious of time, so I will turn to Lords I urge the Government to rework the shortage occupation amendment 5 on the IT system. It is important to have list to include these jobs. this discussion because one thing we have noticed during I want to live in a country that welcomes immigrants these times is the digital disconnect—the digital lockout. and the contribution that they make and that offers a Hon. and right hon. Members on all sides of the House refuge to those who need it. I support all the Lords have pointed that out. I accept the arguments advanced amendments,but especially the call for an impact assessment by my hon. Friend the Minister on the merits of using a for our care sector as a matter of urgency to provide the digital system, but we need to be really careful that we actual data on how the proposed legislation will affect do not lock a generation out. the provision. I know from my area that there are many people who do not have access to computers and digital. There is a Shaun Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Con): I am very reliance more widely across Government on digital— conscious of time,so I am going to get stuck in straightaway. obviously, we are going into the future and it is going to I want to try to cover as many of the Lords amendments be there—but we cannot lock people out. From discussions as I can, but I want to start by looking at social care. I with the Minister, I am heartened by the way in which represent an area where 16,000 people work in social the Department is open to being agile in that space, but care. I just want to pick up on one of the comments we need to be mindful that we cannot lock out a made by the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside generation. (Kim Johnson). She made a very eloquent speech, but I I want to wrap up my comments, because I am will say this. I care about my social care workers. I care conscious I have only 30 seconds left, but I will just say about making sure they get the wages they deserve. I this. I stood on a manifesto in my constituency to get care about making sure they have the conditions they Brexit done. I stood on a manifesto to bring in a fair deserve. However, the amendment runs a real risk of immigration system that my constituents felt ultimately tagging the social care debate—which we need to have, stuck by that principle of fair play. I believe the Bill, gloves off, because there are issues we need to discuss in unamended, does that. However, there are operational 845 Immigration and Social Security 19 OCTOBER 2020 Immigration and Social Security 846 Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill [Shaun Bailey] who makes an application will receive a written response, with a number on it, that provides evidence of the status points, which I am sure the Minister will pick up in his that has been granted, but I think it would be useful for winding-up speech, that we need to address. If we do all of us to hear a bit more in due course from the Home that, we can be absolutely sure that we refine this and Office about how it proposes to ensure that that is make it work for that sense of fair play that my constituents something people appreciate the value of, and that it is voted for. kept and preserved so that the evidence is there for the future. David Simmonds: Like my hon. Friend the Member The UK has much to be proud of in the way that we for West Bromwich West (Shaun Bailey), I am very respond to immigration. It is right that we keep this much of the view that the Bill has the purpose of tight to the matters under consideration, but I trust that replacing the arrangements we had in the European colleagues have heard the concerns across the House Union. I will not be supporting the amendments this and that the Minister will address them in his summing evening, because I feel very much that the issues highlighted up. are principally about matters of management and administration of the process, rather than operation of Kevin Foster: This has been an interesting and fascinating law. That said, I hope those on the Government Front debate, which has mostly been reflective and reasonable. Bench are paying close attention to what has been said I hope colleagues will appreciate though that, in the across the House this evening about a number of particular seven and a half minutes I have, I will not be able to points. The two I would especially like to draw attention respond to every single point that has been raised. to are: the circumstances of undocumented children in I will start with the themes, and we have again had a the care system, and the point about documentary lengthy debate on social care. I was pleased to hear the evidence in the hands of those who are applying for SNP spokesperson, the hon. Member for Cumbernauld, settled status. Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East (Stuart C. McDonald), I thank my hon. Friend the Minister for his time and say he agreed with the MAC. He will recall the evidence attention to the first issue relating to undocumented that Brian Bell gave to the Public Bill Committee that children. However, we heard Members across the House considered this Bill, and I am glad to hear that he now emphasise the vulnerability of those in the care system agrees with that. I would say, however, that we are being to finding themselves at risk of a future Windrush clear again that the MAC has been free to make its own situation because of the retroactive nature of some reviews and commissions, and to produce an annual elements of the applications for settled status. While it report that can then be considered by this House. It will is welcome that the Home Office accepts that people be able to do that independently, and it will almost will be able to apply in effect out of time—that is a certainly provide commentary on social care. To set up positive thing—it does not address the fundamental a body that is independent and free to make its own problem that a local authority with care responsibilities, decisions, and then tell it all the reviews it needs to do or indeed a family member with a special guardianship does not make a great deal of sense. Similarly, we are order for a young person, would face if they do not have keen that it is there, and it can be lobbied, including by the necessary documentation proving that young person’s the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Enfield, nationality in obtaining settled status for them in the Southgate (Bambos Charalambous), about areas that it United Kingdom. Although I think we recognise that may wish to consider of importance. As we keep on that group is a relatively small group, it is vital that their saying, if the lesson people have taken from the last few needs are addressed to ensure that we do not, in 10 or months is that the solution to social care is to give 15 years’ time, find ourselves regretting that we did not employers an unlimited opportunity to recruit at the take more action on that tonight. minimum wage, they have really taken the wrong lesson. Another point which arises from that of course is the Moving on to the issues of modern slavery, we one raised by my hon. Friend the Member for East have again had some impassioned speeches and some Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton), which is the very well-informed ones, particularly from my right significant cost of this. Local authorities paying that hon. Friends the Members for Staffordshire Moorlands cost to the Home Office is simply a cost shunt from one (Karen Bradley) and for Chingford and Woodford Green taxpayer to another taxpayer, and I would urge the (Sir Iain Duncan Smith). Again, I would say that we Home Office to give consideration to ensuring that, for have obviously made the changes to guidance. We will children in care,those costs are either waived or substantially bring forward those changes to guidance and have them reduced to remove a final barrier. in place on 1 January. He will appreciate why we will not I will finish on this point, time being tight. A number do it before then, because people will still have free of Members have raised the issue of documentary movement rights and we should respect that. But certainly evidence in the hands of the citizen. We have seen many we are happy to engage more widely around the position examples in all different walks of life where we would on what we can do and where we can ensure that the have legitimate concerns about whether the digital record support these victims need is available to them, particularly keeping, of all kinds of organisations and for all kinds as we remove the distinction between EEA victims who of reasons, is sufficiently accurate. Weall hear,as Members have free movement rights and non-EEA victims who of this House, from our constituents about the issues do not, subject to the caveat that we will of course that that causes them in their day-to-day life. For people always look to see if a victim of modern slavery is who may be refugees, who may be facing a degree of eligible for the European settlement scheme. digital exclusion or for whom English is not a first Turning to the issues of family reunion and resettlement, language, that is an even greater problem. I am reassured I again point out that there are provisions under the by the message from the Home Office that everybody UK’s migration rules that, certainly under part 8, go 847 Immigration and Social Security 19 OCTOBER 2020 Immigration and Social Security 848 Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill wider than purely affecting parents with children. We time when a face-to-face meeting to do so may be a lot are in negotiations with the European Union, and the less desirable. As touched on, it will not just be EEA Under-Secretary,my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon nationals with status under EUSS who will be using South (Chris Philp), is actively looking at what we can digital status—we also intend the route for British do. If we can get bilateral arrangements, then fantastic, nationals overseas, who will also be moving to digital. but does it make sense in future to have a different set of As touched on, countries such as Australia have had a rules for people in EEA countries versus those in the system like this in place for some time. It was interesting rest of the world? That is the core of this Bill, which is to hear the hon. Member for Bath (Wera Hobhouse) about free movement rights. If there is an agreement—a talk about the idea of digital passports. We are starting reciprocal arrangement—in place, then that would go to look to the future where people may well travel on beyond what we have as our baseline rules. Now that we their biometrics and with digital identities rather than have left the European Union, with the transition period travelling purely on passports—although that is probably and free movement coming to an end, whatever settlement a few years away given that it would require technology we have in future—there is a debate to be had in this being reciprocated in other nations. House about our asylum system, and we will have it at I particularly enjoyed some of the speeches. My hon. more length in the near future—it does not make sense Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Aaron to have a distinction between someone whose position Bell) hit the nail on the head: this Bill is about delivering is in the EEA and someone whose position is, for a manifesto commitment. This Bill is about ending free example,in Turkey,unless there are reciprocal arrangements movement, as voted for in the general election and in that justify that difference of treatment. the referendum back in 2016. It is not there to have the The issue of children in care has rightly been a whole range of debate around immigration, but I respect subject of some debate. I hear the point that has just the fact that people took the chance to do that. This Bill been made about identification. Let me be clear: EUSS is about delivering a manifesto commitment, and that is does not require a passport or an ID card; alternative why we should remove these amendments, which do not measures can be used to prove entitlement through go to that core goal. documentation. However, that issue is not particularly Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. Before I caused by EUSS because today you would need the put the Question, I would like to say that I am expecting same challenge to identify whether someone is a UK some Divisions this evening, and there is a distinction national, an EEA national or a rest-of-the-world national, between “should” and “must”. When I say “should”, it given the impact that that has on free movement rights. is guidance; when I say “must”, you must do it. If there However, we are happy to continue working with local is a Division, those sitting on the Front Benches must authorities to see how we can help them to tackle these leave by the door in front of me; everybody else must issues, and to work with high commissions to ensure leave by the door behind me. It is not optional. Please that those who deserve their status receive it. keep social distancing throughout; if you can touch the As we have said, there is a range of provisions around person in front of you, you are standing too close. late applications and those who should make an application but do not. This is not just about children in care. We 9 pm also include those under 18. If a parent does not make Question put, That this House disagrees with Lords an application, and, at a later time, the child reaches the amendment 1. age of majority and they have to do a compliant The House divided: Ayes 335, Noes 254. environment check, for example, and discover that it Division No. 143] [9 pm has not been made, we would see that as a reasonable ground for a late application. As touched on, there is no AYES specific time limit to that provision. Adams, Nigel Benton, Scott On detention, we have outlined our arguments. I am Afolami, Bim Beresford, Sir Paul conscious that there are strong feelings on this in the Afriyie, Adam Berry, rh Jake House. We all want to see people swiftly moved out of Ahmad Khan, Imran Bhatti, Saqib detention and, if they have no right to be in this Aiken, Nickie Blackman, Bob country, to be removed from it. We want detention to be Aldous, Peter Blunt, Crispin used as a last resort. Its use has been declining over the Allan, Lucy Bone, Mr Peter Amess, Sir David Bottomley, Sir Peter past few years. That is partly because we cannot guarantee Anderson, Lee Bowie, Andrew that a country in sub-Saharan Africa, for example, will Anderson, Stuart Bradley, Ben issue us with travel documents for the person to be Andrew, Stuart Bradley, rh Karen returned to it within the timeframe. In particular, we Ansell, Caroline Brady, Sir Graham have to be clear that there is no ability to put someone Argar, Edward Brereton, Jack in detention for no reason. We have to have a lawful Atherton, Sarah Bridgen, Andrew basis for doing so, and that can only be where there is a Atkins, Victoria Brine, Steve reasonable prospect of removal or a threat to the public— Bacon, Gareth Bristow, Paul although I accept that only a very small number of Bacon, Mr Richard Britcliffe, Sara people are serious foreign national offenders. Bailey, Shaun Brokenshire, rh James On physical documentation, we are moving towards Baillie, Siobhan Browne, Anthony more digital statuses. For example, we are looking to see Baker, Duncan Bruce, Fiona where we can use public services to automatically check Baker, Mr Steve Buchan, Felicity status. In recent months, we have seen the advantage of Baldwin, Harriett Buckland, rh Robert EU citizens who already have EUSS—although they Baron, Mr John Burghart, Alex are not yet required to have it—being able to share that Baynes, Simon Burns, rh Conor online and digitally when doing a range of checks, at a Bell, Aaron Butler, Rob 849 Immigration and Social Security 19 OCTOBER 2020 Immigration and Social Security 850 Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill Cairns, rh Alun Garnier, Mark Lewis, rh Brandon Robinson, Gavin Carter, Andy Ghani, Ms Nusrat Lewis, rh Dr Julian Robinson, Mary Cartlidge, James Gibson, Peter Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Rosindell, Andrew Cash, Sir William Gideon, Jo Loder, Chris Ross, Douglas Cates, Miriam Gillan, rh Dame Cheryl Logan, Mark Rowley, Lee Caulfield, Maria Glen, John Longhi, Marco Russell, Dean Chalk, Alex Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Lopez, Julia Rutley, David Chishti, Rehman Graham, Richard Lopresti, Jack Sambrook, Gary Churchill, Jo Grant, Mrs Helen Lord, Mr Jonathan Saxby, Selaine Clark, rh Greg Gray, James Loughton, Tim Scully, Paul Clarke, Mr Simon Grayling, rh Chris Mackinlay, Craig Seely, Bob Clarke, Theo Green, Chris Mackrory, Cherilyn Selous, Andrew Clarke-Smith, Brendan Green, rh Damian Mak, Alan Shannon, Jim Clarkson, Chris Griffith, Andrew Malthouse, Kit Shapps, rh Grant Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Griffiths, Kate Mangnall, Anthony Sharma, rh Alok Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Grundy, James Mann, Scott Shelbrooke, rh Alec Colburn, Elliot Gullis, Jonathan Marson, Julie Simmonds, David Collins, Damian Halfon, rh Robert May, rh Mrs Theresa Skidmore, rh Chris Costa, Alberto Hall, Luke Mayhew, Jerome Smith, Chloe Courts, Robert Hammond, Stephen Maynard, Paul Smith, Greg Coutinho, Claire Harper, rh Mr Mark McCartney, Jason Smith, Henry Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Harris, Rebecca McCartney, Karl Smith, rh Julian Crabb, rh Stephen Harrison, Trudy McVey, rh Esther Smith, Royston Crosbie, Virginia Hart, Sally-Ann Menzies, Mark Solloway, Amanda Crouch, Tracey Hart, rh Simon Mercer, Johnny Spencer, Dr Ben Daly, James Heald, rh Sir Oliver Merriman, Huw Spencer, rh Mark Davies, David T. C. Heappey, James Metcalfe, Stephen Stafford, Alexander Davies, Gareth Heaton-Harris, Chris Millar, Robin Stephenson, Andrew Davies, Dr James Henderson, Gordon Miller, rh Mrs Maria Stevenson, Jane Davies, Mims Henry, Darren Milling, rh Amanda Stevenson, John Davies, Philip Higginbotham, Antony Mills, Nigel Stewart, Bob Davis, rh Mr David Hinds, rh Damian Mohindra, Mr Gagan Stewart, Iain Davison, Dehenna Hoare, Simon Moore, Damien Streeter, Sir Gary Dinenage, Caroline Holden, Mr Richard Moore, Robbie Stride, rh Mel Dines, Miss Sarah Hollinrake, Kevin Mordaunt, rh Penny Sunderland, James Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hollobone, Mr Philip Morris, Anne Marie Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Docherty, Leo Holloway, Adam Morris, David Syms, Sir Robert Donaldson, rh Sir Jeffrey M. Holmes, Paul Morrissey, Joy Thomas, Derek Donelan, Michelle Howell, John Morton, Wendy Throup, Maggie Dorries, Ms Nadine Howell, Paul Mullan, Dr Kieran Timpson, Edward Double, Steve Huddleston, Nigel Mumby-Croft, Holly Tolhurst, Kelly Dowden, rh Oliver Hudson, Dr Neil Murray, Mrs Sheryll Tomlinson, Justin Doyle-Price, Jackie Hunt, Jane Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Tomlinson, Michael Drax, Richard Hunt, rh Jeremy Neill, Sir Robert Tracey, Craig Drummond, Mrs Flick Hunt, Tom Nokes, rh Caroline Trevelyan, rh Anne-Marie Duguid, David Jack, rh Mr Alister Norman, rh Jesse Trott, Laura Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Jayawardena, Mr Ranil O’Brien, Neil Tugendhat, Tom Dunne, rh Philip Jenkin, Sir Bernard Offord, Dr Matthew Vickers, Matt Eastwood, Mark Jenkinson, Mark Opperman, Guy Villiers, rh Theresa Edwards, Ruth Jenkyns, Andrea Parish, Neil Wakeford, Christian Ellis, rh Michael Johnson, Dr Caroline Patel, rh Priti Walker, Sir Charles Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Johnson, Gareth Paterson, rh Mr Owen Walker, Mr Robin Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Johnston, David Pawsey, Mark Wallis, Dr Jamie Eustice, rh George Jones, Andrew Penning, rh Sir Mike Warburton, David Evans, Dr Luke Jones, rh Mr David Penrose, John Watling, Giles Evennett, rh Sir David Jones, Fay Percy, Andrew Webb, Suzanne Everitt, Ben Jones, Mr Marcus Philp, Chris Whately, Helen Fabricant, Michael Jupp, Simon Pincher, rh Christopher Farris, Laura Kawczynski, Daniel Poulter, Dr Dan Wheeler, Mrs Heather Fell, Simon Kearns, Alicia Pow, Rebecca Whittaker, Craig Fletcher, Katherine Keegan, Gillian Prentis, Victoria Whittingdale, rh Mr John Fletcher, Mark Knight, rh Sir Greg Pritchard, Mark Wiggin, Bill Fletcher, Nick Knight, Julian Pursglove, Tom Wild, James Ford, Vicky Kruger, Danny Quin, Jeremy Williams, Craig Foster, Kevin Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Quince, Will Williamson, rh Gavin Francois, rh Mr Mark Lamont, John Randall, Tom Wilson, rh Sammy Frazer, Lucy Largan, Robert Redwood, rh John Wood, Mike Freeman, George Latham, Mrs Pauline Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Young, Jacob Freer, Mike Leadsom, rh Andrea Richards, Nicola Zahawi, Nadhim Fuller, Richard Leigh, rh Sir Edward Richardson, Angela Tellers for the Ayes: Fysh, Mr Marcus Levy, Ian Roberts, Rob James Morris and Gale, rh Sir Roger Lewer, Andrew Robertson, Mr Laurence Eddie Hughes 851 Immigration and Social Security 19 OCTOBER 2020 Immigration and Social Security 852 Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill NOES Lake, Ben Reed, Steve Abbott, rh Ms Diane Dowd, Peter Lavery, Ian Rees, Christina Abrahams, Debbie Dromey, Jack Law, Chris Reeves, Ellie Ali, Rushanara Duffield, Rosie Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Reeves, Rachel Ali, Tahir Eagle, Ms Angela Lewis, Clive Reynolds, Jonathan Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Eagle, Maria Linden, David Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Amesbury, Mike Eastwood, Colum Lloyd, Tony Rimmer, Ms Marie Anderson, Fleur Edwards, Jonathan Long Bailey, Rebecca Rodda, Matt Antoniazzi, Tonia Efford, Clive Lucas, Caroline Russell-Moyle, Lloyd Ashworth, Jonathan Elliott, Julie Lynch, Holly Saville Roberts, rh Liz Bardell, Hannah Elmore, Chris MacAskill, Kenny Sharma, Mr Virendra Barker, Paula Eshalomi, Florence MacNeil, Angus Brendan Sheerman, Mr Barry Beckett, rh Margaret Esterson, Bill Madders, Justin Sheppard, Tommy Begum, Apsana Evans, Chris Mahmood, Mr Khalid Siddiq, Tulip Benn, rh Hilary Farron, Tim Malhotra, Seema Slaughter, Andy Betts, Mr Clive Farry, Stephen Maskell, Rachael Smith, Alyn Black, Mhairi Fellows, Marion Matheson, Christian Smith, Cat Blackford, rh Ian Ferrier, Margaret Mc Nally, John Smith, Jeff Blackman, Kirsty Fletcher, Colleen McCabe, Steve Smith, Nick Blake, Olivia Flynn, Stephen McCarthy, Kerry Smyth, Karin Blomfield, Paul Fovargue, Yvonne McDonagh, Siobhain Sobel, Alex Bonnar, Steven Foxcroft, Vicky McDonald, Andy Spellar, rh John Brabin, Tracy Foy, Mary Kelly McDonald, Stewart Malcolm Starmer, rh Keir Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Furniss, Gill McDonald, Stuart C. Stephens, Chris Brennan, Kevin Gardiner, Barry McDonnell, rh John Stevens, Jo Brock, Deidre Gibson, Patricia McFadden, rh Mr Pat Stone, Jamie Brown, Alan Gill, Preet Kaur McGinn, Conor Streeting, Wes Brown, Ms Lyn Glindon, Mary McKinnell, Catherine Stringer, Graham Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Grady, Patrick McLaughlin, Anne Sultana, Zarah Bryant, Chris Grant, Peter McMahon, Jim Tami, rh Mark Buck, Ms Karen Gray, Neil McMorrin, Anna Tarry, Sam Burgon, Richard Green, Kate Mearns, Ian Thewliss, Alison Butler, Dawn Greenwood, Lilian Miliband, rh Edward Thomas, Gareth Byrne, Ian Greenwood, Margaret Mishra, Navendu Thomas-Symonds, Nick Byrne, rh Liam Griffith, Nia Monaghan, Carol Thompson, Owen Cadbury, Ruth Gwynne, Andrew Moran, Layla Thomson, Richard Callaghan, Amy Hamilton, Fabian Morgan, Stephen Thornberry, rh Emily Cameron, Dr Lisa Hanna, Claire Morris, Grahame Timms, rh Stephen Campbell, rh Sir Alan Hanvey, Neale Murray, Ian Trickett, Jon Carden, Dan Hardy, Emma Murray, James Turner, Karl Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Harman, rh Ms Harriet Newlands, Gavin Twigg, Derek Chamberlain, Wendy Harris, Carolyn Nichols, Charlotte Twist, Liz Champion, Sarah Hayes, Helen Nicolson, John Vaz, rh Valerie Chapman, Douglas Healey, rh John Norris, Alex Webbe, Claudia Charalambous, Bambos Hendrick, Sir Mark O’Hara, Brendan West, Catherine Cherry, Joanna Hendry, Drew Olney, Sarah Whitford, Dr Philippa Clark, Feryal Hill, Mike Onwurah, Chi Whitley, Mick Cooper, Daisy Hillier, Meg Oppong-Asare, Abena Whittome, Nadia Cooper, Rosie Hobhouse, Wera Osamor, Kate Williams, Hywel Cooper, rh Yvette Hodge, rh Dame Margaret Osborne, Kate Wilson, Munira Corbyn, rh Jeremy Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Oswald, Kirsten Winter, Beth Owatemi, Taiwo Cowan, Ronnie Hollern, Kate Wishart, Pete Pennycook, Matthew Coyle, Neil Hopkins, Rachel Yasin, Mohammad Perkins, Mr Toby Crawley, Angela Hosie, Stewart Zeichner, Daniel Creasy, Stella Howarth, rh Sir George Phillips, Jess Cruddas, Jon Huq, Dr Rupa Pollard, Luke Tellers for the Noes: Matt Western and Cryer, John Hussain, Imran Powell, Lucy Jessica Morden Cummins, Judith Jardine, Christine Qureshi, Yasmin Cunningham, Alex Jarvis, Dan Daby, Janet Johnson, Dame Diana Question accordingly agreed to. Davey, rh Ed Johnson, Kim Lords amendment 1 disagreed to. David, Wayne Jones, Darren The list of Members currently certified as eligible for a Davies, Geraint Jones, Gerald Davies-Jones, Alex Jones, rh Mr Kevan proxy vote, and of the Members nominated as their Day, Martyn Jones, Ruth proxy, is published at the end of today’s debates. De Cordova, Marsha Jones, Sarah 9.15 pm Debbonaire, Thangam Kane, Mike Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Keeley, Barbara Proceedings interrupted (Programme Order, this day). Docherty-Hughes, Martin Kendall, Liz The Deputy Speaker then put forthwith the Questions Dodds, Anneliese Khan, Afzal necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded Dorans, Allan Kinnock, Stephen at that time (Standing Order No. 83F). Doughty, Stephen Kyle, Peter Lords amendment 2 disagreed to. 853 Immigration and Social Security 19 OCTOBER 2020 Immigration and Social Security 854 Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill After Clause 4 Gideon, Jo Loder, Chris Gillan, rh Dame Cheryl Logan, Mark CHILDREN IN CARE AND CHILDREN ENTITLED TO Glen, John Longhi, Marco CARE LEAVING SUPPORT:ENTITLEMENT TO REMAIN Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Lopez, Julia Motion made, and Question put, That this House Graham, Richard Lopresti, Jack disagrees with Lords amendment 3.—(Kevin Foster.) Grant, Mrs Helen Lord, Mr Jonathan The Committee divided: Ayes 330, Noes 262. Gray, James Mackinlay, Craig Grayling, rh Chris Mackrory, Cherilyn Division No. 144] [9.16 pm Green, Chris Mak, Alan AYES Green, rh Damian Malthouse, Kit Griffith, Andrew Mangnall, Anthony Adams, Nigel Clarkson, Chris Griffiths, Kate Mann, Scott Afolami, Bim Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Grundy, James Marson, Julie Afriyie, Adam Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Gullis, Jonathan May, rh Mrs Theresa Ahmad Khan, Imran Colburn, Elliot Halfon, rh Robert Mayhew, Jerome Aiken, Nickie Collins, Damian Hall, Luke Maynard, Paul Aldous, Peter Costa, Alberto Hammond, Stephen McCartney, Jason Allan, Lucy Courts, Robert Harper, rh Mr Mark McCartney, Karl Amess, Sir David Coutinho, Claire Harris, Rebecca McVey, rh Esther Anderson, Lee Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Harrison, Trudy Menzies, Mark Anderson, Stuart Crabb, rh Stephen Hart, Sally-Ann Mercer, Johnny Andrew, Stuart Crosbie, Virginia Hart, rh Simon Merriman, Huw Ansell, Caroline Crouch, Tracey Heald, rh Sir Oliver Metcalfe, Stephen Argar, Edward Daly, James Heappey, James Millar, Robin Atherton, Sarah Davies, David T. C. Heaton-Harris, Chris Miller, rh Mrs Maria Atkins, Victoria Davies, Gareth Henderson, Gordon Milling, rh Amanda Bacon, Gareth Davies, Dr James Henry, Darren Mills, Nigel Bacon, Mr Richard Davies, Mims Higginbotham, Antony Mohindra, Mr Gagan Bailey, Shaun Davies, Philip Hinds, rh Damian Moore, Damien Baillie, Siobhan Davis, rh Mr David Hoare, Simon Moore, Robbie Baker, Duncan Davison, Dehenna Holden, Mr Richard Mordaunt, rh Penny Baker, Mr Steve Dinenage, Caroline Hollinrake, Kevin Morris, Anne Marie Baldwin, Harriett Dines, Miss Sarah Hollobone, Mr Philip Morris, David Baron, Mr John Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Holloway, Adam Morrissey, Joy Baynes, Simon Docherty, Leo Holmes, Paul Morton, Wendy Bell, Aaron Donelan, Michelle Howell, John Mullan, Dr Kieran Benton, Scott Dorries, Ms Nadine Howell, Paul Mumby-Croft, Holly Beresford, Sir Paul Double, Steve Huddleston, Nigel Murray, Mrs Sheryll Berry, rh Jake Dowden, rh Oliver Hudson, Dr Neil Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Bhatti, Saqib Doyle-Price, Jackie Hunt, Jane Neill, Sir Robert Blackman, Bob Drax, Richard Hunt, rh Jeremy Nokes, rh Caroline Blunt, Crispin Drummond, Mrs Flick Hunt, Tom Norman, rh Jesse Bone, Mr Peter Duguid, David Jack, rh Mr Alister O’Brien, Neil Bottomley, Sir Peter Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Offord, Dr Matthew Bowie, Andrew Dunne, rh Philip Jenkin, Sir Bernard Opperman, Guy Bradley, Ben Eastwood, Mark Jenkinson, Mark Parish, Neil Bradley, rh Karen Edwards, Ruth Jenkyns, Andrea Patel, rh Priti Brady, Sir Graham Ellis, rh Michael Johnson, Dr Caroline Paterson, rh Mr Owen Brereton, Jack Elmore, Chris Johnson, Gareth Pawsey, Mark Bridgen, Andrew Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Johnston, David Penning, rh Sir Mike Brine, Steve Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Jones, Andrew Penrose, John Bristow, Paul Eustice, rh George Jones, rh Mr David Percy, Andrew Britcliffe, Sara Evans, Dr Luke Jones, Fay Philp, Chris Brokenshire, rh James Evennett, rh Sir David Jones, Mr Marcus Pincher, rh Christopher Browne, Anthony Everitt, Ben Jupp, Simon Poulter, Dr Dan Bruce, Fiona Fabricant, Michael Kawczynski, Daniel Pow, Rebecca Buchan, Felicity Farris, Laura Kearns, Alicia Prentis, Victoria Buckland, rh Robert Fell, Simon Keegan, Gillian Pritchard, Mark Burghart, Alex Fletcher, Katherine Knight, rh Sir Greg Pursglove, Tom Burns, rh Conor Fletcher, Mark Knight, Julian Quin, Jeremy Butler, Rob Fletcher, Nick Kruger, Danny Quince, Will Cairns, rh Alun Ford, Vicky Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Randall, Tom Carter, Andy Foster, Kevin Lamont, John Redwood, rh John Cartlidge, James Francois, rh Mr Mark Cash, Sir William Frazer, Lucy Largan, Robert Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Cates, Miriam Freeman, George Latham, Mrs Pauline Richards, Nicola Caulfield, Maria Freer, Mike Leadsom, rh Andrea Richardson, Angela Chalk, Alex Fuller, Richard Leigh, rh Sir Edward Roberts, Rob Churchill, Jo Fysh, Mr Marcus Levy, Ian Robertson, Mr Laurence Clark, rh Greg Gale, rh Sir Roger Lewer, Andrew Robinson, Mary Clarke, Mr Simon Garnier, Mark Lewis, rh Brandon Rosindell, Andrew Clarke, Theo Ghani, Ms Nusrat Lewis, rh Dr Julian Ross, Douglas Clarke-Smith, Brendan Gibson, Peter Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Rowley, Lee 855 Immigration and Social Security 19 OCTOBER 2020 Immigration and Social Security 856 Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill Russell, Dean Timpson, Edward Doughty, Stephen Law, Chris Rutley, David Tolhurst, Kelly Dowd, Peter Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Sambrook, Gary Tomlinson, Justin Dromey, Jack Lewis, Clive Saxby, Selaine Tomlinson, Michael Duffield, Rosie Linden, David Scully, Paul Tracey, Craig Eagle, Ms Angela Lloyd, Tony Seely, Bob Trevelyan, rh Anne-Marie Eagle, Maria Long Bailey, Rebecca Selous, Andrew Trott, Laura Eastwood, Colum Loughton, Tim Shapps, rh Grant Tugendhat, Tom Edwards, Jonathan Lucas, Caroline Sharma, rh Alok Vickers, Matt Efford, Clive Lynch, Holly Shelbrooke, rh Alec Villiers, rh Theresa Elliott, Julie MacAskill, Kenny Simmonds, David Wakeford, Christian Eshalomi, Florence MacNeil, Angus Brendan Skidmore, rh Chris Walker, Sir Charles Esterson, Bill Madders, Justin Smith, Chloe Walker, Mr Robin Evans, Chris Mahmood, Mr Khalid Smith, Greg Wallace, rh Mr Ben Farron, Tim Malhotra, Seema Smith, Henry Wallis, Dr Jamie Farry, Stephen Maskell, Rachael Smith, rh Julian Warburton, David Fellows, Marion Matheson, Christian Smith, Royston Watling, Giles Ferrier, Margaret Mc Nally, John Solloway, Amanda Webb, Suzanne Fletcher, Colleen McCabe, Steve Spencer, Dr Ben Whately, Helen Flynn, Stephen McCarthy, Kerry Spencer, rh Mark Wheeler, Mrs Heather Fovargue, Yvonne McDonagh, Siobhain Stafford, Alexander Whittaker, Craig Foxcroft, Vicky McDonald, Andy Stephenson, Andrew Whittingdale, rh Mr John Furniss, Gill McDonald, Stewart Malcolm Stevenson, Jane Wiggin, Bill Gardiner, Barry McDonald, Stuart C. Stevenson, John Wild, James Gibson, Patricia McDonnell, rh John Stewart, Bob Williams, Craig Gill, Preet Kaur McFadden, rh Mr Pat Stewart, Iain Williamson, rh Gavin Glindon, Mary McGinn, Conor Streeter, Sir Gary Wood, Mike Grady, Patrick McKinnell, Catherine Stride, rh Mel Grant, Peter McLaughlin, Anne Young, Jacob Sunderland, James Gray, Neil McMahon, Jim Zahawi, Nadhim Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Green, Kate McMorrin, Anna Syms, Sir Robert Tellers for the Ayes: Greenwood, Lilian Mearns, Ian Thomas, Derek James Morris and Greenwood, Margaret Miliband, rh Edward Throup, Maggie Eddie Hughes Griffith, Nia Mishra, Navendu Gwynne, Andrew Monaghan, Carol NOES Hamilton, Fabian Moran, Layla Hanna, Claire Morgan, Stephen Abbott, rh Ms Diane Cameron, Dr Lisa Hanvey, Neale Morris, Grahame Abrahams, Debbie Campbell, rh Sir Alan Hardy, Emma Murray, Ian Ali, Rushanara Carden, Dan Harman, rh Ms Harriet Murray, James Ali, Tahir Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Harris, Carolyn Newlands, Gavin Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Chamberlain, Wendy Hayes, Helen Nichols, Charlotte Amesbury, Mike Champion, Sarah Healey, rh John Nicolson, John Anderson, Fleur Chapman, Douglas Hendrick, Sir Mark Norris, Alex Antoniazzi, Tonia Charalambous, Bambos Hendry, Drew O’Hara, Brendan Ashworth, Jonathan Cherry, Joanna Hill, Mike Olney, Sarah Bardell, Hannah Chishti, Rehman Hillier, Meg Onwurah, Chi Barker, Paula Clark, Feryal Hobhouse, Wera Oppong-Asare, Abena Beckett, rh Margaret Cooper, Daisy Hodge, rh Dame Margaret Osamor, Kate Begum, Apsana Cooper, Rosie Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Osborne, Kate Benn, rh Hilary Cooper, rh Yvette Hollern, Kate Oswald, Kirsten Betts, Mr Clive Corbyn, rh Jeremy Hopkins, Rachel Owatemi, Taiwo Black, Mhairi Cowan, Ronnie Hosie, Stewart Pennycook, Matthew Blackford, rh Ian Coyle, Neil Howarth, rh Sir George Perkins, Mr Toby Blackman, Kirsty Crawley, Angela Huq, Dr Rupa Phillips, Jess Blake, Olivia Creasy, Stella Hussain, Imran Pollard, Luke Blomfield, Paul Cruddas, Jon Jardine, Christine Powell, Lucy Bonnar, Steven Cryer, John Jarvis, Dan Qureshi, Yasmin Brabin, Tracy Cummins, Judith Johnson, Dame Diana Reed, Steve Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Cunningham, Alex Johnson, Kim Rees, Christina Brennan, Kevin Daby, Janet Jones, Darren Reeves, Ellie Brock, Deidre Davey, rh Ed Jones, Gerald Reeves, Rachel Brown, Alan David, Wayne Jones, rh Mr Kevan Reynolds, Jonathan Brown, Ms Lyn Davies, Geraint Jones, Ruth Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Davies-Jones, Alex Jones, Sarah Rimmer, Ms Marie Bryant, Chris Day, Martyn Kane, Mike Robinson, Gavin Buck, Ms Karen De Cordova, Marsha Keeley, Barbara Rodda, Matt Burgon, Richard Debbonaire, Thangam Kendall, Liz Russell-Moyle, Lloyd Butler, Dawn Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Khan, Afzal Saville Roberts, rh Liz Byrne, Ian Docherty-Hughes, Martin Kinnock, Stephen Shannon, Jim Byrne, rh Liam Dodds, Anneliese Kyle, Peter Sharma, Mr Virendra Cadbury, Ruth Donaldson, rh Sir Jeffrey M. Lake, Ben Sheerman, Mr Barry Callaghan, Amy Dorans, Allan Lavery, Ian Sheppard, Tommy 857 Immigration and Social Security 19 OCTOBER 2020 Immigration and Social Security 858 Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill Siddiq, Tulip Thornberry, rh Emily Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Halfon, rh Robert Slaughter, Andy Timms, rh Stephen Colburn, Elliot Hall, Luke Smith, Alyn Trickett, Jon Collins, Damian Hammond, Stephen Smith, Cat Turner, Karl Costa, Alberto Harper, rh Mr Mark Smith, Jeff Twigg, Derek Courts, Robert Harris, Rebecca Smith, Nick Twist, Liz Coutinho, Claire Harrison, Trudy Smyth, Karin Vaz, rh Valerie Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Hart, Sally-Ann Sobel, Alex Webbe, Claudia Crabb, rh Stephen Hart, rh Simon Spellar, rh John West, Catherine Crosbie, Virginia Heald, rh Sir Oliver Starmer, rh Keir Whitford, Dr Philippa Crouch, Tracey Heappey, James Stephens, Chris Whitley, Mick Daly, James Heaton-Harris, Chris Stevens, Jo Whittome, Nadia Davies, David T. C. Henderson, Gordon Stone, Jamie Williams, Hywel Davies, Gareth Henry, Darren Streeting, Wes Wilson, Munira Davies, Dr James Higginbotham, Antony Stringer, Graham Wilson, rh Sammy Davies, Mims Hinds, rh Damian Sultana, Zarah Winter, Beth Davies, Philip Hoare, Simon Tami, rh Mark Wishart, Pete Davison, Dehenna Holden, Mr Richard Tarry, Sam Dinenage, Caroline Hollinrake, Kevin Yasin, Mohammad Thewliss, Alison Dines, Miss Sarah Hollobone, Mr Philip Zeichner, Daniel Thomas, Gareth Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Holloway, Adam Thomas-Symonds, Nick Tellers for the Noes: Docherty, Leo Holmes, Paul Thompson, Owen Matt Western and Donelan, Michelle Howell, John Thomson, Richard Jessica Morden Dorries, Ms Nadine Howell, Paul Double, Steve Huddleston, Nigel Question accordingly agreed to. Dowden, rh Oliver Hudson, Dr Neil Doyle-Price, Jackie Hunt, Jane Lords amendment 3 disagreed to. Drax, Richard Hunt, rh Jeremy The list of Members currently certified as eligible for a Drummond, Mrs Flick Hunt, Tom proxy vote, and of the Members nominated as their Duguid, David Jack, rh Mr Alister proxy, is published at the end of today’s debates. Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Dunne, rh Philip Jenkin, Sir Bernard After Clause 4 Eastwood, Mark Jenkinson, Mark Edwards, Ruth Jenkyns, Andrea LEAVE TO ENTER:FAMILY UNITY AND CLAIMS Ellis, rh Michael Johnson, Dr Caroline FOR ASYLUM Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Johnson, Gareth Motion made, and Question put, That this House Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Johnston, David disagrees with Lords amendment 4.—(Kevin Foster.) Eustice, rh George Jones, Andrew The House divided: Ayes 327, Noes 264. Evans, Dr Luke Jones, rh Mr David Division No. 145] [9.30 pm Evennett, rh Sir David Jones, Fay Everitt, Ben Jones, Mr Marcus AYES Fabricant, Michael Jupp, Simon Adams, Nigel Bottomley, Sir Peter Farris, Laura Kawczynski, Daniel Afolami, Bim Bowie, Andrew Fell, Simon Kearns, Alicia Afriyie, Adam Bradley, Ben Fletcher, Katherine Keegan, Gillian Ahmad Khan, Imran Brady, Sir Graham Fletcher, Mark Knight, rh Sir Greg Aiken, Nickie Brereton, Jack Fletcher, Nick Knight, Julian Aldous, Peter Bridgen, Andrew Ford, Vicky Kruger, Danny Allan, Lucy Brine, Steve Foster, Kevin Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Anderson, Lee Bristow, Paul Francois, rh Mr Mark Lamont, John Anderson, Stuart Britcliffe, Sara Frazer, Lucy Largan, Robert Andrew, Stuart Brokenshire, rh James Freeman, George Latham, Mrs Pauline Ansell, Caroline Browne, Anthony Freer, Mike Leadsom, rh Andrea Argar, Edward Bruce, Fiona Fuller, Richard Leigh, rh Sir Edward Atherton, Sarah Buchan, Felicity Fysh, Mr Marcus Levy, Ian Atkins, Victoria Buckland, rh Robert Gale, rh Sir Roger Lewer, Andrew Bacon, Gareth Burghart, Alex Garnier, Mark Lewis, rh Brandon Bacon, Mr Richard Burns, rh Conor Ghani, Ms Nusrat Lewis, rh Dr Julian Bailey, Shaun Butler, Rob Gibson, Peter Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Baillie, Siobhan Cairns, rh Alun Gideon, Jo Loder, Chris Baker, Duncan Carter, Andy Gillan, rh Dame Cheryl Logan, Mark Baker, Mr Steve Cartlidge, James Glen, John Longhi, Marco Baldwin, Harriett Cash, Sir William Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Lopez, Julia Baron, Mr John Cates, Miriam Graham, Richard Lopresti, Jack Baynes, Simon Caulfield, Maria Grant, Mrs Helen Lord, Mr Jonathan Bell, Aaron Chalk, Alex Gray, James Mackinlay, Craig Benton, Scott Churchill, Jo Grayling, rh Chris Mackrory, Cherilyn Beresford, Sir Paul Clark, rh Greg Green, Chris Mak, Alan Berry, rh Jake Clarke, Mr Simon Green, rh Damian Malthouse, Kit Bhatti, Saqib Clarke, Theo Griffith, Andrew Mangnall, Anthony Blackman, Bob Clarke-Smith, Brendan Griffiths, Kate Mann, Scott Blunt, Crispin Clarkson, Chris Grundy, James Marson, Julie Bone, Mr Peter Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Gullis, Jonathan May, rh Mrs Theresa 859 Immigration and Social Security 19 OCTOBER 2020 Immigration and Social Security 860 Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill Mayhew, Jerome Seely, Bob Benn, rh Hilary Esterson, Bill Maynard, Paul Selous, Andrew Betts, Mr Clive Evans, Chris McCartney, Karl Shapps, rh Grant Black, Mhairi Farron, Tim McVey, rh Esther Sharma, rh Alok Blackford, rh Ian Farry, Stephen Menzies, Mark Shelbrooke, rh Alec Blackman, Kirsty Fellows, Marion Mercer, Johnny Simmonds, David Blake, Olivia Ferrier, Margaret Merriman, Huw Skidmore, rh Chris Blomfield, Paul Fletcher, Colleen Metcalfe, Stephen Smith, Chloe Bonnar, Steven Flynn, Stephen Millar, Robin Smith, Greg Brabin, Tracy Fovargue, Yvonne Miller, rh Mrs Maria Smith, Henry Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Foxcroft, Vicky Milling, rh Amanda Smith, rh Julian Brennan, Kevin Foy, Mary Kelly Mills, Nigel Smith, Royston Brock, Deidre Furniss, Gill Mohindra, Mr Gagan Solloway, Amanda Brown, Alan Gardiner, Barry Moore, Damien Spencer, Dr Ben Brown, Ms Lyn Gibson, Patricia Moore, Robbie Spencer, rh Mark Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Gill, Preet Kaur Mordaunt, rh Penny Stafford, Alexander Bryant, Chris Glindon, Mary Morris, Anne Marie Stephenson, Andrew Buck, Ms Karen Grady, Patrick Morris, David Stevenson, Jane Burgon, Richard Grant, Peter Morrissey, Joy Stevenson, John Butler, Dawn Gray, Neil Morton, Wendy Stewart, Bob Byrne, Ian Green, Kate Mullan, Dr Kieran Stewart, Iain Byrne, rh Liam Greenwood, Lilian Mumby-Croft, Holly Streeter, Sir Gary Cadbury, Ruth Greenwood, Margaret Murray, Mrs Sheryll Stride, rh Mel Callaghan, Amy Griffith, Nia Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Sunderland, James Cameron, Dr Lisa Gwynne, Andrew Neill, Sir Robert Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Campbell, rh Sir Alan Hamilton, Fabian Nokes, rh Caroline Syms, Sir Robert Carden, Dan Hanna, Claire Norman, rh Jesse Thomas, Derek Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hanvey, Neale O’Brien, Neil Throup, Maggie Chamberlain, Wendy Hardy, Emma Offord, Dr Matthew Timpson, Edward Champion, Sarah Harman, rh Ms Harriet Opperman, Guy Tolhurst, Kelly Chapman, Douglas Harris, Carolyn Parish, Neil Tomlinson, Justin Charalambous, Bambos Hayes, Helen Patel, rh Priti Tomlinson, Michael Cherry, Joanna Healey, rh John Paterson, rh Mr Owen Tracey, Craig Chishti, Rehman Hendrick, Sir Mark Pawsey, Mark Trevelyan, rh Anne-Marie Clark, Feryal Hendry, Drew Penning, rh Sir Mike Trott, Laura Cooper, Daisy Hill, Mike Penrose, John Cooper, Rosie Hillier, Meg Tugendhat, Tom Percy, Andrew Cooper, rh Yvette Hobhouse, Wera Vickers, Matt Philp, Chris Corbyn, rh Jeremy Hodge, rh Dame Margaret Villiers, rh Theresa Pincher, rh Christopher Cowan, Ronnie Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Wakeford, Christian Poulter, Dr Dan Coyle, Neil Hollern, Kate Pow, Rebecca Walker, Sir Charles Crawley, Angela Hopkins, Rachel Prentis, Victoria Walker, Mr Robin Creasy, Stella Hosie, Stewart Pritchard, Mark Wallace, rh Mr Ben Cruddas, Jon Howarth, rh Sir George Pursglove, Tom Wallis, Dr Jamie Cryer, John Huq, Dr Rupa Quin, Jeremy Warburton, David Cummins, Judith Hussain, Imran Quince, Will Watling, Giles Cunningham, Alex Jardine, Christine Randall, Tom Webb, Suzanne Daby, Janet Jarvis, Dan Redwood, rh John Whately, Helen Davey, rh Ed Johnson, Dame Diana Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Wheeler, Mrs Heather David, Wayne Johnson, Kim Richards, Nicola Whittaker, Craig Davies, Geraint Jones, Darren Richardson, Angela Whittingdale, rh Mr John Davies-Jones, Alex Jones, Gerald Roberts, Rob Wiggin, Bill Davis, rh Mr David Jones, rh Mr Kevan Robertson, Mr Laurence Wild, James Day, Martyn Jones, Ruth Robinson, Mary Williams, Craig De Cordova, Marsha Jones, Sarah Rosindell, Andrew Williamson, rh Gavin Debbonaire, Thangam Kane, Mike Ross, Douglas Wood, Mike Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Keeley, Barbara Rowley, Lee Docherty-Hughes, Martin Kendall, Liz Young, Jacob Russell, Dean Dodds, Anneliese Khan, Afzal Zahawi, Nadhim Rutley, David Donaldson, rh Sir Jeffrey M. Kinnock, Stephen Sambrook, Gary Tellers for the Ayes: Dorans, Allan Kyle, Peter Saxby, Selaine James Morris and Doughty, Stephen Lake, Ben Scully, Paul Eddie Hughes Dowd, Peter Lavery, Ian Dromey, Jack Law, Chris NOES Duffield, Rosie Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Eagle, Ms Angela Lewis, Clive Abbott, rh Ms Diane Anderson, Fleur Eagle, Maria Linden, David Abrahams, Debbie Antoniazzi, Tonia Eastwood, Colum Lloyd, Tony Ali, Rushanara Ashworth, Jonathan Edwards, Jonathan Long Bailey, Rebecca Ali, Tahir Bardell, Hannah Efford, Clive Loughton, Tim Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Barker, Paula Elliott, Julie Lucas, Caroline Amesbury, Mike Beckett, rh Margaret Elmore, Chris Lynch, Holly Amess, Sir David Begum, Apsana Eshalomi, Florence MacAskill, Kenny 861 Immigration and Social Security 19 OCTOBER 2020 Immigration and Social Security 862 Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill MacNeil, Angus Brendan Robinson, Gavin Division No. 146] [9.44 pm Madders, Justin Rodda, Matt Mahmood, Mr Khalid Russell-Moyle, Lloyd AYES Malhotra, Seema Saville Roberts, rh Liz Adams, Nigel Courts, Robert Maskell, Rachael Shannon, Jim Afolami, Bim Coutinho, Claire Matheson, Christian Sharma, Mr Virendra Afriyie, Adam Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Mc Nally, John Sheerman, Mr Barry Ahmad Khan, Imran Crabb, rh Stephen McCabe, Steve Sheppard, Tommy Aiken, Nickie Crosbie, Virginia McCarthy, Kerry Siddiq, Tulip Aldous, Peter Crouch, Tracey McCartney, Jason Slaughter, Andy Allan, Lucy Daly, James McDonagh, Siobhain Smith, Alyn Amess, Sir David Davies, David T. C. McDonald, Andy Smith, Cat Anderson, Lee Davies, Gareth McDonald, Stewart Malcolm Smith, Jeff Anderson, Stuart Davies, Dr James McDonald, Stuart C. Smith, Nick Andrew, Stuart Davies, Mims McDonnell, rh John Smyth, Karin Ansell, Caroline Davies, Philip McFadden, rh Mr Pat Sobel, Alex Argar, Edward Davis, rh Mr David McGinn, Conor Spellar, rh John Atherton, Sarah Davison, Dehenna McKinnell, Catherine Starmer, rh Keir Atkins, Victoria Dinenage, Caroline McLaughlin, Anne Stephens, Chris Bacon, Gareth Dines, Miss Sarah McMahon, Jim Stevens, Jo Bacon, Mr Richard Djanogly, Mr Jonathan McMorrin, Anna Stone, Jamie Bailey, Shaun Docherty, Leo Mearns, Ian Streeting, Wes Baillie, Siobhan Donelan, Michelle Miliband, rh Edward Stringer, Graham Baker, Duncan Dorries, Ms Nadine Mishra, Navendu Sultana, Zarah Baker, Mr Steve Double, Steve Monaghan, Carol Tami, rh Mark Baldwin, Harriett Dowden, rh Oliver Moran, Layla Tarry, Sam Baron, Mr John Doyle-Price, Jackie Morgan, Stephen Thewliss, Alison Baynes, Simon Drax, Richard Morris, Grahame Thomas, Gareth Bell, Aaron Drummond, Mrs Flick Murray, Ian Thomas-Symonds, Nick Benton, Scott Duguid, David Murray, James Thompson, Owen Beresford, Sir Paul Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Newlands, Gavin Thomson, Richard Berry, rh Jake Dunne, rh Philip Nichols, Charlotte Bhatti, Saqib Eastwood, Mark Nicolson, John Thornberry, rh Emily Blackman, Bob Edwards, Ruth Norris, Alex Timms, rh Stephen Blunt, Crispin Ellis, rh Michael O’Hara, Brendan Trickett, Jon Bone, Mr Peter Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Olney, Sarah Turner, Karl Bottomley, Sir Peter Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Onwurah, Chi Twigg, Derek Bowie, Andrew Eustice, rh George Oppong-Asare, Abena Twist, Liz Bradley, Ben Evans, Dr Luke Osamor, Kate Vaz, rh Valerie Bradley, rh Karen Evennett, rh Sir David Osborne, Kate Webbe, Claudia Brady, Sir Graham Everitt, Ben Oswald, Kirsten West, Catherine Brereton, Jack Fabricant, Michael Owatemi, Taiwo Whitford, Dr Philippa Bridgen, Andrew Farris, Laura Pennycook, Matthew Whitley, Mick Brine, Steve Fell, Simon Perkins, Mr Toby Whittome, Nadia Bristow, Paul Fletcher, Katherine Phillips, Jess Williams, Hywel Britcliffe, Sara Fletcher, Mark Pollard, Luke Wilson, Munira Brokenshire, rh James Fletcher, Nick Powell, Lucy Winter, Beth Browne, Anthony Ford, Vicky Qureshi, Yasmin Wishart, Pete Bruce, Fiona Foster, Kevin Reed, Steve Wragg, Mr William Buchan, Felicity Francois, rh Mr Mark Rees, Christina Yasin, Mohammad Buckland, rh Robert Frazer, Lucy Reeves, Ellie Zeichner, Daniel Burghart, Alex Freeman, George Reeves, Rachel Burns, rh Conor Freer, Mike Reynolds, Jonathan Tellers for the Noes: Butler, Rob Fuller, Richard Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Jessica Morden and Cairns, rh Alun Fysh, Mr Marcus Rimmer, Ms Marie Matt Western Carter, Andy Gale, rh Sir Roger Cartlidge, James Garnier, Mark Question accordingly agreed to. Cash, Sir William Ghani, Ms Nusrat Lords amendment 4 disagreed to. The list of Members Cates, Miriam Gibson, Peter currently certified as eligible for a proxy vote, and of the Caulfield, Maria Gideon, Jo Members nominated as their proxy, is published at the Chalk, Alex Gillan, rh Dame Cheryl end of today’s debates. Chishti, Rehman Glen, John Churchill, Jo Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Clark, rh Greg Graham, Richard After Clause 4 Clarke, Mr Simon Grant, Mrs Helen Clarke, Theo Gray, James Clarke-Smith, Brendan Grayling, rh Chris EU SETTLEMENT SCHEME: PHYSICAL DOCUMENTED Clarkson, Chris Green, Chris PROOF Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Green, rh Damian Motion made, and Question put, That this House Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Griffith, Andrew disagrees with Lords amendment 5.—(Kevin Foster.) Colburn, Elliot Griffiths, Kate Collins, Damian Grundy, James The House divided: Ayes 331, Noes 260. Costa, Alberto Gullis, Jonathan 863 Immigration and Social Security 19 OCTOBER 2020 Immigration and Social Security 864 Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill Halfon, rh Robert Mayhew, Jerome Smith, Henry Tugendhat, Tom Hall, Luke Maynard, Paul Smith, rh Julian Vickers, Matt Hammond, Stephen McCartney, Jason Smith, Royston Villiers, rh Theresa Harper, rh Mr Mark McCartney, Karl Solloway, Amanda Wakeford, Christian Harris, Rebecca McVey, rh Esther Spencer, Dr Ben Walker, Sir Charles Harrison, Trudy Menzies, Mark Spencer, rh Mark Walker, Mr Robin Hart, Sally-Ann Mercer, Johnny Stafford, Alexander Wallace, rh Mr Ben Hart, rh Simon Merriman, Huw Stephenson, Andrew Wallis, Dr Jamie Heald, rh Sir Oliver Metcalfe, Stephen Stevenson, Jane Warburton, David Heappey, James Millar, Robin Stevenson, John Watling, Giles Heaton-Harris, Chris Miller, rh Mrs Maria Stewart, Bob Webb, Suzanne Henderson, Gordon Milling, rh Amanda Stewart, Iain Whately, Helen Henry, Darren Mills, Nigel Streeter, Sir Gary Wheeler, Mrs Heather Higginbotham, Antony Mohindra, Mr Gagan Stride, rh Mel Whittaker, Craig Hinds, rh Damian Moore, Damien Sunderland, James Whittingdale, rh Mr John Hoare, Simon Moore, Robbie Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Wiggin, Bill Holden, Mr Richard Mordaunt, rh Penny Syms, Sir Robert Wild, James Hollinrake, Kevin Morris, Anne Marie Thomas, Derek Williams, Craig Hollobone, Mr Philip Morris, David Throup, Maggie Williamson, rh Gavin Holloway, Adam Morrissey, Joy Timpson, Edward Wood, Mike Holmes, Paul Morton, Wendy Tolhurst, Kelly Young, Jacob Howell, John Mullan, Dr Kieran Tomlinson, Justin Zahawi, Nadhim Howell, Paul Mumby-Croft, Holly Tomlinson, Michael Huddleston, Nigel Murray, Mrs Sheryll Tracey, Craig Tellers for the Ayes: Hudson, Dr Neil Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Trevelyan, rh Anne-Marie James Morris and Hunt, Jane Neill, Sir Robert Trott, Laura Eddie Hughes Hunt, rh Jeremy Nokes, rh Caroline Hunt, Tom Norman, rh Jesse NOES Jack, rh Mr Alister O’Brien, Neil Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Offord, Dr Matthew Abbott, rh Ms Diane Charalambous, Bambos Jenkin, Sir Bernard Opperman, Guy Abrahams, Debbie Cherry, Joanna Jenkinson, Mark Parish, Neil Ali, Rushanara Clark, Feryal Jenkyns, Andrea Patel, rh Priti Ali, Tahir Cooper, Daisy Johnson, Dr Caroline Paterson, rh Mr Owen Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Cooper, Rosie Johnson, Gareth Pawsey, Mark Amesbury, Mike Cooper, rh Yvette Johnston, David Penning, rh Sir Mike Anderson, Fleur Corbyn, rh Jeremy Jones, Andrew Penrose, John Antoniazzi, Tonia Cowan, Ronnie Jones, rh Mr David Percy, Andrew Ashworth, Jonathan Coyle, Neil Jones, Fay Philp, Chris Bardell, Hannah Crawley, Angela Jones, Mr Marcus Pincher, rh Christopher Barker, Paula Creasy, Stella Jupp, Simon Poulter, Dr Dan Beckett, rh Margaret Cruddas, Jon Kawczynski, Daniel Pow, Rebecca Begum, Apsana Cryer, John Kearns, Alicia Prentis, Victoria Benn, rh Hilary Cummins, Judith Keegan, Gillian Pritchard, Mark Betts, Mr Clive Cunningham, Alex Knight, rh Sir Greg Pursglove, Tom Black, Mhairi Daby, Janet Knight, Julian Quin, Jeremy Blackford, rh Ian Davey, rh Ed Kruger, Danny Quince, Will Blackman, Kirsty David, Wayne Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Randall, Tom Blake, Olivia Davies, Geraint Lamont, John Redwood, rh John Blomfield, Paul Davies-Jones, Alex Largan, Robert Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Bonnar, Steven Day, Martyn Latham, Mrs Pauline Richards, Nicola Brabin, Tracy De Cordova, Marsha Leadsom, rh Andrea Richardson, Angela Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Debbonaire, Thangam Leigh, rh Sir Edward Roberts, Rob Brennan, Kevin Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Levy, Ian Robertson, Mr Laurence Brock, Deidre Docherty-Hughes, Martin Lewer, Andrew Robinson, Mary Brown, Alan Dodds, Anneliese Lewis, rh Brandon Rosindell, Andrew Brown, Ms Lyn Donaldson, rh Sir Jeffrey M. Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Ross, Douglas Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Dorans, Allan Loder, Chris Rowley, Lee Bryant, Chris Doughty, Stephen Logan, Mark Russell, Dean Buck, Ms Karen Dowd, Peter Longhi, Marco Rutley, David Burgon, Richard Dromey, Jack Lopez, Julia Sambrook, Gary Butler, Dawn Duffield, Rosie Lopresti, Jack Saxby, Selaine Byrne, Ian Eagle, Ms Angela Lord, Mr Jonathan Scully, Paul Byrne, rh Liam Eagle, Maria Loughton, Tim Seely, Bob Cadbury, Ruth Eastwood, Colum Mackinlay, Craig Selous, Andrew Callaghan, Amy Edwards, Jonathan Mackrory, Cherilyn Shapps, rh Grant Cameron, Dr Lisa Efford, Clive Mak, Alan Sharma, rh Alok Campbell, rh Sir Alan Elliott, Julie Malthouse, Kit Shelbrooke, rh Alec Carden, Dan Elmore, Chris Mangnall, Anthony Simmonds, David Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Eshalomi, Florence Mann, Scott Skidmore, rh Chris Chamberlain, Wendy Esterson, Bill Marson, Julie Smith, Chloe Champion, Sarah Evans, Chris May, rh Mrs Theresa Smith, Greg Chapman, Douglas Farron, Tim 865 Immigration and Social Security 19 OCTOBER 2020 Immigration and Social Security 866 Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill Farry, Stephen Maskell, Rachael Stringer, Graham Webbe, Claudia Fellows, Marion Matheson, Christian Sultana, Zarah West, Catherine Ferrier, Margaret Mc Nally, John Tami, rh Mark Western, Matt Fletcher, Colleen McCabe, Steve Tarry, Sam Whitford, Dr Philippa Flynn, Stephen McCarthy, Kerry Thewliss, Alison Whitley, Mick Fovargue, Yvonne McDonagh, Siobhain Thomas, Gareth Whittome, Nadia Foxcroft, Vicky McDonald, Andy Thomas-Symonds, Nick Williams, Hywel Foy, Mary Kelly McDonald, Stewart Malcolm Thompson, Owen Wilson, Munira Furniss, Gill McDonnell, rh John Thomson, Richard Wilson, rh Sammy Gardiner, Barry McFadden, rh Mr Pat Thornberry, rh Emily Winter, Beth Gibson, Patricia McGinn, Conor Timms, rh Stephen Wishart, Pete Gill, Preet Kaur McKinnell, Catherine Trickett, Jon Yasin, Mohammad Glindon, Mary McLaughlin, Anne Turner, Karl Zeichner, Daniel Grady, Patrick McMahon, Jim Twigg, Derek Tellers for the Noes: Grant, Peter McMorrin, Anna Twist, Liz Stuart C. McDonald and Gray, Neil Mearns, Ian Vaz, rh Valerie Stewart Hosie Green, Kate Miliband, rh Edward Greenwood, Lilian Mishra, Navendu Greenwood, Margaret Monaghan, Carol Question accordingly agreed to. Griffith, Nia Moran, Layla Lords amendment 5 disagreed to. Gwynne, Andrew Morden, Jessica The list of Members currently certified as eligible for a Hamilton, Fabian Morgan, Stephen Hanna, Claire Morris, Grahame proxy vote, and of the Members nominated as their Hanvey, Neale Murray, Ian proxy, is published at the end of today’s debates. Hardy, Emma Murray, James Harman, rh Ms Harriet Newlands, Gavin Harris, Carolyn Nichols, Charlotte After Clause 4 Hayes, Helen Nicolson, John Healey, rh John Norris, Alex TIME LIMIT ON IMMIGRATION DETENTION FOR EEA Hendrick, Sir Mark O’Hara, Brendan AND SWISS NATIONALS Hendry, Drew Olney, Sarah Motion made, and Question put, That this House Hill, Mike Onwurah, Chi disagrees with Lords amendment 6.—(Kevin Foster.) Hillier, Meg Oppong-Asare, Abena Hobhouse, Wera Osamor, Kate The House divided: Ayes 328, Noes 264. Hodge, rh Dame Margaret Osborne, Kate Division No. 147] [9.58 pm Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Oswald, Kirsten Hollern, Kate Owatemi, Taiwo AYES Hopkins, Rachel Pennycook, Matthew Howarth, rh Sir George Perkins, Mr Toby Adams, Nigel Bradley, Ben Huq, Dr Rupa Phillips, Jess Afolami, Bim Bradley, rh Karen Hussain, Imran Pollard, Luke Afriyie, Adam Brady, Sir Graham Jardine, Christine Powell, Lucy Ahmad Khan, Imran Brereton, Jack Jarvis, Dan Qureshi, Yasmin Aiken, Nickie Bridgen, Andrew Johnson, Dame Diana Reed, Steve Aldous, Peter Brine, Steve Johnson, Kim Rees, Christina Allan, Lucy Bristow, Paul Jones, Darren Reeves, Ellie Amess, Sir David Britcliffe, Sara Jones, Gerald Reeves, Rachel Anderson, Lee Brokenshire, rh James Jones, rh Mr Kevan Reynolds, Jonathan Anderson, Stuart Browne, Anthony Jones, Ruth Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Andrew, Stuart Bruce, Fiona Jones, Sarah Rimmer, Ms Marie Ansell, Caroline Buchan, Felicity Kane, Mike Robinson, Gavin Argar, Edward Buckland, rh Robert Keeley, Barbara Rodda, Matt Atherton, Sarah Burghart, Alex Kendall, Liz Russell-Moyle, Lloyd Atkins, Victoria Burns, rh Conor Khan, Afzal Saville Roberts, rh Liz Bacon, Gareth Butler, Rob Kinnock, Stephen Shannon, Jim Bacon, Mr Richard Cairns, rh Alun Kyle, Peter Sharma, Mr Virendra Bailey, Shaun Carter, Andy Lake, Ben Sheerman, Mr Barry Baillie, Siobhan Cartlidge, James Lavery, Ian Sheppard, Tommy Baker, Duncan Cash, Sir William Law, Chris Siddiq, Tulip Baker, Mr Steve Cates, Miriam Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Slaughter, Andy Baldwin, Harriett Caulfield, Maria Lewis, Clive Smith, Alyn Baron, Mr John Chalk, Alex Lewis, rh Dr Julian Smith, Cat Baynes, Simon Churchill, Jo Linden, David Smith, Jeff Bell, Aaron Clark, rh Greg Lloyd, Tony Smith, Nick Benton, Scott Clarke, Mr Simon Long Bailey, Rebecca Smyth, Karin Beresford, Sir Paul Clarke, Theo Lucas, Caroline Sobel, Alex Berry, rh Jake Clarke-Smith, Brendan Lynch, Holly Spellar, rh John Bhatti, Saqib Clarkson, Chris MacAskill, Kenny Starmer, rh Keir Blackman, Bob Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey MacNeil, Angus Brendan Stephens, Chris Blunt, Crispin Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Madders, Justin Stevens, Jo Bone, Mr Peter Colburn, Elliot Mahmood, Mr Khalid Stone, Jamie Bottomley, Sir Peter Collins, Damian Malhotra, Seema Streeting, Wes Bowie, Andrew Costa, Alberto 867 Immigration and Social Security 19 OCTOBER 2020 Immigration and Social Security 868 Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill Courts, Robert Harrison, Trudy Menzies, Mark Shapps, rh Grant Coutinho, Claire Hart, Sally-Ann Mercer, Johnny Sharma, rh Alok Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Hart, rh Simon Merriman, Huw Shelbrooke, rh Alec Crabb, rh Stephen Heald, rh Sir Oliver Metcalfe, Stephen Simmonds, David Crosbie, Virginia Heappey, James Millar, Robin Skidmore, rh Chris Crouch, Tracey Heaton-Harris, Chris Miller, rh Mrs Maria Smith, Chloe Daly, James Henderson, Gordon Milling, rh Amanda Smith, Greg Davies, David T. C. Henry, Darren Mills, Nigel Smith, Henry Davies, Gareth Higginbotham, Antony Mohindra, Mr Gagan Smith, rh Julian Davies, Dr James Hinds, rh Damian Moore, Damien Smith, Royston Davies, Mims Hoare, Simon Moore, Robbie Solloway, Amanda Davies, Philip Holden, Mr Richard Mordaunt, rh Penny Spencer, Dr Ben Davison, Dehenna Hollinrake, Kevin Morris, Anne Marie Spencer, rh Mark Dinenage, Caroline Hollobone, Mr Philip Morris, David Stafford, Alexander Dines, Miss Sarah Holloway, Adam Morrissey, Joy Stephenson, Andrew Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Holmes, Paul Morton, Wendy Stevenson, Jane Docherty, Leo Howell, John Mullan, Dr Kieran Stevenson, John Donelan, Michelle Howell, Paul Mumby-Croft, Holly Stewart, Bob Dorries, Ms Nadine Huddleston, Nigel Murray, Mrs Sheryll Stewart, Iain Double, Steve Hudson, Dr Neil Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Streeter, Sir Gary Dowden, rh Oliver Hunt, Jane Neill, Sir Robert Stride, rh Mel Doyle-Price, Jackie Hunt, rh Jeremy Nokes, rh Caroline Sunderland, James Drax, Richard Hunt, Tom Norman, rh Jesse Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Drummond, Mrs Flick Jack, rh Mr Alister O’Brien, Neil Syms, Sir Robert Duguid, David Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Offord, Dr Matthew Thomas, Derek Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Jenkin, Sir Bernard Opperman, Guy Throup, Maggie Dunne, rh Philip Jenkinson, Mark Parish, Neil Timpson, Edward Eastwood, Mark Jenkyns, Andrea Patel, rh Priti Tolhurst, Kelly Edwards, Ruth Johnson, Dr Caroline Paterson, rh Mr Owen Tomlinson, Justin Ellis, rh Michael Johnson, Gareth Pawsey, Mark Tomlinson, Michael Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Johnston, David Penning, rh Sir Mike Tracey, Craig Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Jones, Andrew Penrose, John Trevelyan, rh Anne-Marie Eustice, rh George Jones, rh Mr David Percy, Andrew Trott, Laura Evans, Dr Luke Jones, Fay Philp, Chris Tugendhat, Tom Evennett, rh Sir David Jones, Mr Marcus Pincher, rh Christopher Vickers, Matt Everitt, Ben Jupp, Simon Poulter, Dr Dan Villiers, rh Theresa Fabricant, Michael Kawczynski, Daniel Pow, Rebecca Farris, Laura Kearns, Alicia Prentis, Victoria Wakeford, Christian Fell, Simon Keegan, Gillian Pritchard, Mark Walker, Sir Charles Fletcher, Katherine Knight, rh Sir Greg Pursglove, Tom Walker, Mr Robin Fletcher, Mark Knight, Julian Quin, Jeremy Wallace, rh Mr Ben Fletcher, Nick Kruger, Danny Quince, Will Wallis, Dr Jamie Ford, Vicky Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Randall, Tom Warburton, David Foster, Kevin Lamont, John Redwood, rh John Watling, Giles Francois, rh Mr Mark Largan, Robert Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Webb, Suzanne Frazer, Lucy Latham, Mrs Pauline Richards, Nicola Whately, Helen Freeman, George Leadsom, rh Andrea Richardson, Angela Wheeler, Mrs Heather Freer, Mike Leigh, rh Sir Edward Roberts, Rob Whittaker, Craig Fysh, Mr Marcus Levy, Ian Robertson, Mr Laurence Whittingdale, rh Mr John Gale, rh Sir Roger Lewer, Andrew Robinson, Mary Wiggin, Bill Garnier, Mark Lewis, rh Brandon Rosindell, Andrew Wild, James Ghani, Ms Nusrat Lewis, rh Dr Julian Ross, Douglas Williams, Craig Gibson, Peter Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Rowley, Lee Williamson, rh Gavin Gideon, Jo Loder, Chris Russell, Dean Wood, Mike Gillan, rh Dame Cheryl Logan, Mark Rutley, David Young, Jacob Glen, John Longhi, Marco Sambrook, Gary Zahawi, Nadhim Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Lopez, Julia Saxby, Selaine Graham, Richard Lopresti, Jack Scully, Paul Tellers for the Ayes: Grant, Mrs Helen Lord, Mr Jonathan Seely, Bob James Morris and Gray, James Mackinlay, Craig Selous, Andrew Eddie Hughes Grayling, rh Chris Mackrory, Cherilyn Green, Chris Mak, Alan NOES Green, rh Damian Malthouse, Kit Abbott, rh Ms Diane Bardell, Hannah Griffith, Andrew Mangnall, Anthony Griffiths, Kate Mann, Scott Abrahams, Debbie Barker, Paula Grundy, James Marson, Julie Ali, Rushanara Beckett, rh Margaret Gullis, Jonathan May, rh Mrs Theresa Ali, Tahir Begum, Apsana Halfon, rh Robert Mayhew, Jerome Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Benn, rh Hilary Hall, Luke Maynard, Paul Amesbury, Mike Betts, Mr Clive Hammond, Stephen McCartney, Jason Anderson, Fleur Black, Mhairi Harper, rh Mr Mark McCartney, Karl Antoniazzi, Tonia Blackford, rh Ian Harris, Rebecca McVey, rh Esther Ashworth, Jonathan Blackman, Kirsty 869 Immigration and Social Security 19 OCTOBER 2020 Immigration and Social Security 870 Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill Blake, Olivia Fletcher, Colleen McCabe, Steve Shannon, Jim Blomfield, Paul Flynn, Stephen McCarthy, Kerry Sharma, Mr Virendra Bonnar, Steven Fovargue, Yvonne McDonagh, Siobhain Sheerman, Mr Barry Brabin, Tracy Foxcroft, Vicky McDonald, Andy Sheppard, Tommy Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Foy, Mary Kelly McDonald, Stewart Malcolm Siddiq, Tulip Brennan, Kevin Furniss, Gill McDonald, Stuart C. Slaughter, Andy Brock, Deidre Gardiner, Barry McDonnell, rh John Smith, Alyn Brown, Alan Gibson, Patricia McFadden, rh Mr Pat Smith, Cat Brown, Ms Lyn Gill, Preet Kaur McGinn, Conor Smith, Jeff Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Glindon, Mary McKinnell, Catherine Smith, Nick Bryant, Chris Grady, Patrick McLaughlin, Anne Smyth, Karin Buck, Ms Karen Grant, Peter McMahon, Jim Sobel, Alex Burgon, Richard Gray, Neil McMorrin, Anna Spellar, rh John Butler, Dawn Green, Kate Mearns, Ian Starmer, rh Keir Byrne, Ian Greenwood, Lilian Miliband, rh Edward Stephens, Chris Byrne, rh Liam Greenwood, Margaret Mishra, Navendu Stevens, Jo Cadbury, Ruth Griffith, Nia Monaghan, Carol Stone, Jamie Callaghan, Amy Gwynne, Andrew Moran, Layla Streeting, Wes Cameron, Dr Lisa Hamilton, Fabian Morden, Jessica Stringer, Graham Campbell, rh Sir Alan Hanna, Claire Morgan, Stephen Sultana, Zarah Carden, Dan Hanvey, Neale Morris, Grahame Tami, rh Mark Chamberlain, Wendy Hardy, Emma Murray, Ian Tarry, Sam Champion, Sarah Harman, rh Ms Harriet Murray, James Thewliss, Alison Chapman, Douglas Harris, Carolyn Newlands, Gavin Thomas, Gareth Charalambous, Bambos Hayes, Helen Nichols, Charlotte Thomas-Symonds, Nick Cherry, Joanna Healey, rh John Nicolson, John Thompson, Owen Chishti, Rehman Hendrick, Sir Mark Norris, Alex Thomson, Richard Clark, Feryal Hendry, Drew O’Hara, Brendan Thornberry, rh Emily Cooper, Daisy Hill, Mike Olney, Sarah Timms, rh Stephen Cooper, Rosie Hillier, Meg Onwurah, Chi Trickett, Jon Cooper, rh Yvette Hobhouse, Wera Oppong-Asare, Abena Turner, Karl Corbyn, rh Jeremy Hodge, rh Dame Margaret Osamor, Kate Twigg, Derek Cowan, Ronnie Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Osborne, Kate Twist, Liz Coyle, Neil Hollern, Kate Oswald, Kirsten Vaz, rh Valerie Crawley, Angela Hopkins, Rachel Owatemi, Taiwo Webbe, Claudia Creasy, Stella Hosie, Stewart Pennycook, Matthew West, Catherine Cruddas, Jon Howarth, rh Sir George Perkins, Mr Toby Western, Matt Cryer, John Huq, Dr Rupa Phillips, Jess Whitford, Dr Philippa Cummins, Judith Hussain, Imran Pollard, Luke Whitley, Mick Cunningham, Alex Jarvis, Dan Powell, Lucy Whittome, Nadia Daby, Janet Johnson, Dame Diana Qureshi, Yasmin Williams, Hywel Davey, rh Ed Johnson, Kim Reed, Steve Wilson, Munira David, Wayne Jones, Darren Rees, Christina Wilson, rh Sammy Davies, Geraint Jones, Gerald Reeves, Ellie Winter, Beth Davies-Jones, Alex Jones, rh Mr Kevan Reeves, Rachel Wishart, Pete Davis, rh Mr David Jones, Ruth Reynolds, Jonathan Wragg, Mr William Day, Martyn Jones, Sarah Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Yasin, Mohammad De Cordova, Marsha Kane, Mike Rimmer, Ms Marie Zeichner, Daniel Debbonaire, Thangam Keeley, Barbara Robinson, Gavin Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Kendall, Liz Rodda, Matt Tellers for the Noes: Docherty-Hughes, Martin Khan, Afzal Russell-Moyle, Lloyd Christine Jardine and Dodds, Anneliese Kinnock, Stephen Saville Roberts, rh Liz Mr Alistair Carmichael Donaldson, rh Sir Jeffrey M. Kyle, Peter Dorans, Allan Lake, Ben Question accordingly agreed to. Doughty, Stephen Lavery, Ian Dowd, Peter Law, Chris Lords amendment 6 disagreed to. Dromey, Jack Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma The list of Members currently certified as eligible for a Duffield, Rosie Lewis, Clive Eagle, Ms Angela Linden, David proxy vote, and of the Members nominated as their Eagle, Maria Lloyd, Tony proxy, is published at the end of today’s debates. Eastwood, Colum Long Bailey, Rebecca Lords amendments 7 to 10 disagreed to. Edwards, Jonathan Loughton, Tim Lords amendment 11 agreed to. Efford, Clive Lucas, Caroline Elliott, Julie Lynch, Holly Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Elmore, Chris MacAskill, Kenny Order No. 83H), That a Committee be appointed to Eshalomi, Florence MacNeil, Angus Brendan drawup Reasons to be assigned to the Lords for disagreeing Esterson, Bill Madders, Justin to their amendments 1 to 10; Evans, Chris Mahmood, Mr Khalid That Kevin Foster,Tom Pursglove, Mike Wood, Andrew Farron, Tim Malhotra, Seema Lewer, Bambos Charalambous, Jessica Morden and Farry, Stephen Maskell, Rachael Stuart C. McDonald be members of the Committee; Fellows, Marion Matheson, Christian Ferrier, Margaret Mc Nally, John That Kevin Foster be the Chair of the Committee; 871 Immigration and Social Security 19 OCTOBER 2020 872 Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill That three be the quorum of the Committee. Vaccine Misinformation Online That the Committee do withdraw immediately.—(David Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House Duguid.) do now adjourn.—(David Duguid.) Question agreed to. Committee to withdraw immediately; reasons to be reported and communicated to the Lords. 10.16 pm

Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): In order to Chris Elmore (Ogmore) (Lab): Mr Deputy Speaker, observe social distancing, the Reasons Committee will may I thank you and Mr Speaker for granting this meet in Committee Room 12. Will those leaving the debate? It is great to see Members from across the Chamber do so socially distanced? House in attendance this evening, and I hope that the issue that I am going to talk about will have widespread cross-party support. PETITION I will cut straight to the chase: I have no time whatsoever for so-called anti-vaxxers, but I am afraid that the Railway Station in Gamesley swelling evidence we have seen over the past few months of the pernicious impact of misinformation about vaccines 10.15 pm now demands our attention, and it demands action. Robert Largan (High Peak) (Con): I rise to present a Day after day, week after week in this place, we petition on behalf of the residents of High Peak calling rightly come together to debate and discuss the best for a railway station to be built in Gamesley. My long- ways we can get on top of this virus and, ultimately, standing petition, both online and on paper, has received defeat it. Each one of us in this place knows that there is strong local support, with over 30% of Gamesley’s no silver-bullet solution to this public health and economic adult population signing it. The people of Gamesley crisis, but we also know that identifying a clinically safe were first promised a railway station 52 years ago. I and effective vaccine is the damned nearest we are likely believe it is time to deliver on that promise. to get. However, I am afraid that the rapid and incessant The petition states: corrosion of public confidence in vaccines propagated The petition of the residents of High Peak, by the anti-vax movement risks threatening the success of the most powerful future tool we could have in our Declares that the people of Gamesley were promised a railway armoury. station in 1968 to help residents commute on the Manchester to Glossop line; notes that a railway station would improve local Let me say at the outset that I am not against scrutiny transport connections by easing parking pressures at Dinting, of vaccines or people raising legitimate questions that shortening commuting times to Manchester, and reducing traffic may need answering. The public have a right to scrutinise around Glossop and Tintwistle; and further declares that the cost vaccination policy as much as any other Government of a railway station would be modest for the Government and transformative for the life chances of residents. policy, but that must be done in an informed and measured way, based on facts rather than nonsensical The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urge the Government to prioritise the reallocation of funds to conspiracy theories involving Bill Gates, or anyone else build a railway station in Gamesley, transforming the lives of for that matter. Part of that process has to involve the Gamesley’s residents. Government being much more proactive about countering And the petitioners remain, etc. some of the scare stories and falsehoods peddled by the anti-vax movement, which play on people’sunderstandable [P002611] fears.

Anthony Mangnall (Totnes) (Con): The hon. Gentleman is making great progress, and he is talking about an issue that is of severe importance to my constituency, which has a 10% lower than average vaccination rate for measles, mumps and rubella. The misinformation that is being spread is palpable, and it is dangerous not only to schoolchildren but to adults. Will he therefore expand a little on the role of education in ensuring that we can inform people and re-energise their understanding and confidence that they are taking vaccines that will help them?

Chris Elmore: I agree with the hon. Gentleman and thank him for that intervention, for two reasons. First, it is very worrying that the UK no longer has measles-free status. That is a real worry for us all. Secondly, on education, there is a huge piece of work to be done where people are rightly questioning vaccine development processes. We are taught that it takes many years to develop vaccines. However, what people are not acknowledging through their legitimate questions is that the whole world is now looking for a vaccine. There 873 Vaccine Misinformation Online19 OCTOBER 2020 Vaccine Misinformation Online 874

[Chris Elmore] Anti-vax misinformation may not be displayed on billboards around the country, but growing evidence is more funding and more availability of scientists working suggests it is starting to reach and influence as many towards trying to solve this problem, so I agree with the people as if it were. We have already seen this digital hon. Gentleman entirely. pandemic spilling out on to our streets. The frankly In private, I think even Ministers would agree that far scary protests we are seeing in ever greater numbers too much of the Government’s response to the crisis has should alarm us all and underline the need for decisive been typified by being too slow: too slow to lockdown, action. too slow to support business, too slow to test and trace effectively—but possibly too fast to Barnard Castle. But Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Will the hon. when all is said and done, I genuinely appreciate the Gentleman give way? huge pressure Ministers have been under over the past seven months. Mistakes are inevitable and hindsight is Chris Elmore: I could never not give way to the hon. all too often a wonderful thing. The message I want to Gentleman. send to those on the Government Benches is that when it comes to the anti-vax movement, we do not need the Jim Shannon: I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on benefit of hindsight. We simply cannot afford to be too bringing forward this topical and pertinent issue. The slow yet again. We know that dangerous misinformation Centre for Countering Digital Hate says that 31% of is eroding public trust in a potential future vaccine. We the British public would be hesitant to have a coronavirus know that a lot of misinformation is being spread vaccine if one becomes available. Does he not agree that online and we know that the social media giants are that is incredibly disheartening? The Government must systematically failing to act. wholeheartedly, with transparent information, enter into this online debate now before people’s minds are warped Ruth Jones (Newport West) (Lab): My hon. Friend is by anti-vaxxers who have had success in seeing MMR making a powerful speech on a very timely topic. I was take-up drop from 95% to 87%. We cannot allow them a paediatric physiotherapist and I have seen the devastating to take hold of the coronavirus debate, given the massive effects of brain damage caused by simple diseases such consequences for the general public right across the as measles. Does he agree that we need to publicise the whole of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and lasting ill effects of measles and long covid, and demonstrate Northern Ireland. the benefits of vaccines? Chris Elmore: I thank the hon. Gentleman. I have done significant work with the CCDH over recent months Chris Elmore: I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. I to try to look at this very issue. He may have taken my have been contacted by other Members who could not very next sentence almost word for word—would you attend this evening. My hon. Friend the Member for believe it, Mr Deputy Speaker?—so I will not repeat it, Bristol West (Thangam Debbonaire) has received but I agree with him. The serious point is that we need correspondence from parents saying that they will not to tackle the issue now, through Members of Parliament, have the MMR, for reasons that can only be deemed to the Government, the official Opposition and the smaller be false. As I said to the hon. Member for Totnes parties, such as the one he represents. We all have a duty (Anthony Mangnall) and as I am sure the Minister will in this House to make sure we get the truth out about say, it is perfectly legitimate to question vaccines. What vaccine development and all its benefits. is not legitimate is to base views on falsehoods. My hon. Friend the Member for Newport West (Ruth Jones) is Online vaccine misinformation is not merely a risk to quite right, through her professional career before coming those individuals who will not be vaccinated; it presents to this place, that catching measles can have a long-term a risk to each and every one of our constituents and negative impact. their loved ones, as the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) said. The CCDH’s study showed that With the benefit of foresight, and given the additional anti-vax social media accounts have 58 million followers, oxygen that the wild, ill-informed and baseless conspiracy and that number is growing rapidly. The 147 largest theories will inevitably continue to receive over the next accounts have amassed more than 7.8 million new followers six months, the Government must bring forward a since 2019, representing a staggering increase of 19%. holistic cross-Government plan to counter this growing movement and bring the social media giants to heel. Facebook is overwhelmingly the leading host of such The anti-vax movement is nothing new—in fact, it has potentially dangerous information, but that platform is been around since the days of smallpox—but what we by no means alone. Across YouTube, Instagram, Twitter must not lose sight of in 2020 is the exponential levels of and various other popular social media sites, this virus oxygen that the internet and in particular social media of misinformation now presents a real threat to our platforms give to such damaging falsehoods. As chair of ability to control the real and deadly coronavirus. It is the all-party group on social media, I have been keenly clear that that is borne out in our communities. Research following the activities of various platforms since the from the Royal Society for Public Health shows that as pandemic began. It must be said that many sites have many as two in five parents with children under 18 in been doing some really positive work to try to promote the UK have reported exposure to negative messages reliable sources of information at a time when the need about vaccination online sometimes or often. to tackle misinformation could scarcely be more crucial. The problem did not arise overnight, yet it is exponentially Yet what many of the social media giants are repeatedly on the rise and has, in part, been fuelled by many failing to do is proactively take down the burgeoning oxygenators in the public eye. The list of celebrities who levels of misinformation about coronavirus vaccines have shared anti-vax content or their anti-vax views spread on their platforms. online grows painfully longer as we continue to respond 875 Vaccine Misinformation Online19 OCTOBER 2020 Vaccine Misinformation Online 876 to this crisis—Madonna, Lewis Hamilton, Novak Djokovic Whether it is posted by Presidents, F1 drivers or Joe and Kanye West are just some of the biggest names Bloggs from No. 73, this poison of misinformation with the largest followings. When we delve deeper into must be countered before it is allowed to become yet this web, the number of influential people helping to more potent. propagate at best ill-informed and at worst downright I know that the Government have held meetings conspiracy theorist nonsense is truly alarming. I know with representatives from the social media companies that several celebrities have since clarified their stance on this issue, and I would be grateful if the Minister after public pressure, but that is often when much of the could outline the outcome of those discussions. In July, damage has already been done. It is not surprising that the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care the World Health Organisation found last year that met Sir Nick Clegg—formerly of this parish, and vaccine hesitancy was one of the top 10 threats to now Facebook’s vice-president for global affairs and global public health. communications—about this issue. I have repeatedly Politicians have a role too, of course. It is not useful asked for clarity about the outcome of that meeting. I to have a President of the United States who increasingly have been told by the Under-Secretary of State for gives the impression that he is rushing to approve a Health and Social Care, the hon. Member for Bury St vaccine for political expediency, rather than purely for Edmunds (Jo Churchill), via written questions that a the sake of public health. That only further corrodes “wide-ranging discussion” took place and that the trust in the international scientific community, who I Government are working with Facebook to have no doubt are working with the utmost integrity “promote positive messages about vaccination.” and precision. That shows why the rigorous process Today, I ask the Minister to go into more detail about through which a vaccine receives approval urgently that wide-ranging discussion and the precise firm needs to be better communicated to the public. People commitments that were made. In particular, was section need to feel reassured about the safeguards that are in 230 of the US Communications Decency Act 1996 place to ensure that new treatments and vaccines meet discussed? What changes, other than those that I have robust national and international standards. Ministers stated, has Facebook implemented since that meeting? say that they are doing that, but this strategy is being enveloped in the increasingly chaotic communications Social media companies can do more. Only this week, that emanate from No. 10 and right across Government. YouTube updated its medical misinformation policy and now prohibits content that includes claims about I have seen how challenging messaging on this issue covid-19 vaccinations that contradict expert consensus, can be. Since repeatedly raising issues around anti-vaxxers local health authorities or the World Health Organisation. in this place and beyond, I have received countless For example, content claiming that a vaccine will kill messages from people actively promoting the conspiracy people or implant a microchip in a recipient’s body will theories. At one point, there was even a suggestion that be removed under the expanded policy. I was no better than the Nazis. For me, that has only underlined how important it is that we take much YouTube says it has done that to allow it to take firmer action to counter much of the ill-informed nonsense robust action should anti-vaccination conspiracy theories we see online. continue to grow as progress towards a potential vaccine is made. Of course, we will have to see how proactively As I have repeatedly said, the social media giants are it is enforced, but it is a really welcome step that will largely failing proactively to take down the burgeoning help to dilute the deluge of misinformation that is levels of misinformation about coronavirus vaccines plaguing many platforms. I commend YouTube for its that is shared and promoted on their platforms. I welcome action and I urge the other big players to follow its lead Facebook’s decision last week to ban anti-vax adverts and go further where necessary. from its platform, but that plainly does not go far enough. We are now seven months into this pandemic, Misinformation is just one of the many dangers that and Facebook has continually dragged its feet on anti-vax people face online, which is why I have been calling for misinformation. Banning ads alone will not starve the Government action on online harms since I first set up many anti-vax Facebook groups of the oxygen they the APPG in 2018. The online harms White Paper is thrive on. The fact that Mark Zuckerberg is still willing certainly a step in the right direction, but the pandemic to trouser money from ads that push back against has underlined how delaying the legislation only allows Government policies that promote vaccines underlines pent-up problems to deepen before our very eyes. just how much further we have to go. Mr Zuckerberg We know that social media giants will not adopt the has said that Facebook will not actively take down all changes that we all need without them being written anti-vax misinformation. For me, that would represent into law, so why are we waiting so long for that to a breach of the statutory duty of care that the Government’s happen? Social media platforms need to have a statutory new legislation is set to impose on the tech giants next duty of care for their users, and people must be provided year. with the same level of safety online as offline, but the As has become typical with Mr Zuckerberg, instead changes that the Government will hopefully implement of providing clear leadership and action, he is offering in the coming months cannot stop there. Ministers must mere qualification and dangerous prevarication. If he establish a social media health alliance to fund research does so because of financial concerns, that is shameful. and education initiatives and establish clearer guidance If he does so because he actually believes it, that is for the public. terrifying. It is pleasing to see that Facebook, Twitter When we consider how quickly technology and social and others are starting to hide posts with warnings media have changed in the past decade, we can imagine when claims are disputed or palpably false. I firmly how unrecognisable they could be by 2025, 2030 or believe that regardless of who has posted the content, further in the future. Funding research through a health they should continue do so without fear or favour. alliance would us help to stay ahead of the game and 877 Vaccine Misinformation Online19 OCTOBER 2020 Vaccine Misinformation Online 878

[Chris Elmore] covid-19 vaccine. Whether it be through myth-busting or making the process more transparent to the public at aware of any emerging threats, and it would give us large, the Government need to start getting back on the much needed time to take action. No hon. Member front foot. A tidal wave of misinformation has already would say that cyber-space has not rapidly got out of arrived on our shores, and without a clear communication control. That wild west will continue to grow yet wilder strategy in advance of providing an effective and safe unless we fund vital research foresight. vaccine, I fear that a further tsunami of anti-vax falsehoods We do not have to fund it, however. Again, that is will fatally undermine the public health and economic where social media giants need to be made to step up wellbeing of our country. The Government promised to and fulfil their moral responsibilities. The alliance can do “whatever it takes” to help the British people through be funded by, say, a small 0.5% levy on the profits that this crisis.Weknow the threat that these anti-vax falsehoods social media platforms make. Social media users generate pose, and it is self-evident that Ministers must do whatever multimillion-pound profits for the tech giants every it takes to counter this damaging discourse. We can and year; the least they can do is reinvest a negligible portion must break the circuit of this digital pandemic. If we of their prosperity to help to improve the health, well-being fail, yet more lives and livelihoods could be lost. and safety of their customers. What else can the Government do? I understand that 10.35 pm the Cabinet Office is working closely with the WHO The Minister for Digital and Culture (Caroline Dinenage): and academics from the University of Cambridge to I would like to start by thanking the hon. Member for help to counter some of the antivax discourse, and I am Ogmore (Chris Elmore) for tabling this really important aware that there are already some good examples of the topic for debate, and for his wider work as chair of the Government trying to do this. The University of all-party parliamentary group on social media, which Cambridge’s new Go Viral! game, supported by the does incredibly important work to draw attention to Cabinet Office, aims to help the public to better understand this vital issue. Vaccine misinformation and, indeed, the techniques used to spread fake news and to identify disinformation are an important issue that the Government and disregard misinformation related to the coronavirus and I take incredibly seriously. It is vital that all UK pandemic. That is a good individual example of how citizens have access to accurate information; it is a key communications can be tailored to different audiences part of our democracy. At their worst, disinformation to help to counter misinformation about vaccines and and misinformation can threaten our democratic freedoms covid-19 more widely, but the Government need many and cause harm to individuals and to our society. more examples that are suitable for a range of audiences During a time of national crisis, it is even more and much more widely promoted. important that people have access to accurate information It would be useful if the Minister gave the House an about covid-19. Throughout the pandemic, really harmful update on that work and detail what practical steps the misinformation and disinformation of many kinds have Government are putting in place to ensure that the issue been observed online, including conspiracy theories is being taken seriously. I know that the Department is about 5G, fake claims about the health risks of wearing working with Public Health England, NHS Improvement masks and the promotion of dangerous and false covid-19 and the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and cures. These are just a few of the many falsehoods that Sport on those issues, but I would like to hear more have been circulating online, and their impact is not about what the Government are doing with the devolved limited to the online environment. They have real-life Administrations. consequences, ranging from people needlessly spending The WHO calls the three key components that contribute money on items to protect themselves, to an increased to a decision not to vaccinate the three c’s: confidence, risk of individuals not following crucial public health complacency and convenience. There can be confidence advice and thereby putting their own and others’ health in the safety and efficiency of a vaccine, but also in the at risk. And of course, we saw the disgraceful acts of system that regulates and provides it. Complacency vandalism and harassment that were spurred on by the happens because, due to the success of vaccination, groundless 5G conspiracy theories. many people do not have experience of diseases that Weare also aware that some people are almost certainly vaccination prevents, such as polio or tuberculosis. exploiting covid-19 to target minority groups online. I Therefore, they underestimate the potential impact of recently met members of Britain’s East and South East catching the disease. Convenience includes factors Asian Network, who highlighted the increase in online such as the cost and ease of obtaining a vaccination. racism that their members had experienced during covid-19. When the Minister responds, I would be grateful if she We are absolutely clear that there is no place for racism, explained precisely how the Government are addressing offline or online. Hateful content on digital platforms each of the three c’s. If they are not, I would like her to is a growing problem in the UK. It inflicts harm on explain why. victims, creates and exacerbates social divisions and We have all seen how Government communications erodes trust in platforms. We cannot continue to put up can reach a wide audience when the Government have with it. the political will to give campaigns the resources they Worryingly, as the hon. Gentleman has said, we are need, from “Get ready for Brexit” to “Stay at home, seeing significant amounts of vaccine misinformation protect the NHS, save lives”. Government information online. Confidence in vaccines across the UK remains can reach a wide audience if Ministers put their minds high, but it is only natural that people should have to it, so today I am calling on the Minister to bring questions about the vaccines that are available to them forward an holistic, six-month, cross-Government strategy and about how they have been developed. However, it is to better inform the public about the vigorous clinical simply unacceptable that some individuals online should procedures that are being followed in approving any seek to exploit citizens’legitimate questions and deliberately 879 Vaccine Misinformation Online19 OCTOBER 2020 Vaccine Misinformation Online 880 create and share vaccine falsehoods for their own personal, also have to address the swathes of inaccurate and political, or, worst of all, financial gain. We have seen a misleading content alongside it. That is why we stood range of baseless and, in some instances, absurd narratives up the cross-Whitehall counter-disinformation unit in being shared about vaccines, including by individuals in March as part of the Government response to covid-19. the public eye, as the hon. Gentleman mentioned. They are much like those that we saw around 5G, and I will Anthony Mangnall: My hon. Friend is making a very not give further time and attention to those groundless important point. I am sorry to have two bites at the theories by repeating them here. cherry, but the point is that there is a knock-on impact However, the act of sharing such falsehoods should from what people read online and then spread within not be confused with well-intentioned citizens asking their communities. Those who do not have access to perfectly understandable questions, as the hon. Gentleman online services are, in certain cases, hearing information said, including about how safe vaccines are. I remember first-hand from people they know, respect and are likely the considerable misinformation that began to circulate to believe. What direction might the Government be about the MMR vaccine and its suggested link to going in to try to counter that as a source of information? autism in the early 2000s. I was a first-time mum at the time, and I found this false information, and the rate at Caroline Dinenage: As I say, we are working with a which it spread, hugely unsettling and hugely worrying. whole range of other Government Departments. The That was of course in the days when social media was in Department of Health is very much leading on the its infancy. It did make a huge difference to a number of communication of this, and my Department is leading us who were mums at the time as to whether we would on the liaison with the platforms to ensure that tackling get our children immunised, and I am sure that it led to anti-vaccination messaging remains one of the key priorities a rise in the number of measles cases subsequently. I of the cross-Whitehall counter-disinformation unit that urge those who have questions to seek advice from we lead. We have been working with partners across reputable sources such as the NHS and Public Health Government to tackle this. England, and to speak to trusted healthcare professionals. As the hon. Member for Ogmore said, we have seen some of the major social media companies update their Jim Shannon: I believe, as I think other Members terms of service and introduce new measures. Most would agree, that we need to have one message coming recently, YouTube extended its policies to address false from all four Administrations—Scotland, Northern Ireland, information. These are steps in the right direction. Wales and England—together. It is very important that However, this year the Secretary of State for DCMS that happens. The hon. Member for Ogmore (Chris asked the major platforms to explore how they need to Elmore) referred to it. It is a critical factor so that we all go further to stop the spread of this content. More hear the same story no matter what part of this great needs to be done, more must be done, and we will United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland continue to put pressure on these companies to take the we live in. necessary action against misinformation in all its guises. It is really key that users are empowered with the Caroline Dinenage: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely knowledge and skills they need to keep themselves safe right. We do all have to be singing from the same hymn online as well. This includes how we recognise and sheet and giving out the same information. report false and misleading content. We can all do our We are taking a very proactive whole-of-Government bit, whether it is fact-checking something before we approach to this. My Department—the Department for share it or reporting something that is potentially harmful. Digital, Culture, Media and Sport—has the responsibility Importantly,the Government are committed to publishing for monitoring and analysing anti-vaccine narratives. an online media literacy strategy that will set out our My officials are working very closely with the vaccine plans to ensure a co-ordinated and strategic approach taskforce, which comes out of the Department for to online media literacy, education and awareness for all Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, while the users. That is due to be published next spring. Department of Health and Social Care is responsible While covid has demonstrated the positive power of for delivering effective communications around the vaccine. the internet, we have all seen that the increased amount I meet my ministerial colleagues very frequently on this. of time spent online provides an opportunity for the First and foremost, we are working with partners in spread of falsehood. The Government remain absolutely the NHS, including GPs and nurses, to explain to steadfast in our determination to tackle misinformation patients the importance of vaccines. I am pleased that and disinformation in all its forms. many organisations in the media and social media are Question put and agreed to. acting very responsibly in providing accurate information. We are also working at pace to ensure that accurate 10.44 pm information is available and accessible online, but we House adjourned. 881 19 OCTOBER 2020 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 882

Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy

The following is the list of Members currently certified Sarah Champion (Rotherham) Chris Elmore as eligible for a proxy vote, and of the Members nominated (Lab) as their proxy: Douglas Chapman Patrick Grady (Dunfermline and West Fife) Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy (SNP) Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh Patrick Grady Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney Bell Ribeiro-Addy South West) (SNP) North and Stoke Newington) (Lab) Feryal Clark (Enfield North) Chris Elmore (Lab) Debbie Abrahams (Oldham Chris Elmore East and Saddleworth) (Lab) Mr Simon Clarke Stuart Andrew (Middlesbrough South and Nickie Aiken (Cities of Stuart Andrew East Cleveland) (Con) London and Westminster) (Con) Chris Clarkson (Heywood Stuart Andrew Dr Rosena Allin-Khan Chris Elmore and Middleton) (Con) (Tooting) (Lab) Damian Collins (Folkestone Stuart Andrew Mr Richard Bacon (South Stuart Andrew and Hythe) (Con) Norfolk) (Con) Rosie Cooper (West Chris Elmore Siobhan Baillie (Stroud) Stuart Andrew Lancashire) (Lab) (Con) Alberto Costa (South Stuart Andrew Hannah Bardell (Livingston) Patrick Grady Leicestershire) (Con) (SNP) Ronnie Cowan (Inverclyde) Patrick Grady Mr John Baron (Basildon and Stuart Andrew (SNP) Billericay) (Con) Geoffrey Cox (Torridge and Stuart Andrew Margaret Beckett (Derby Chris Elmore West Devon) (Con) South) (Lab) Angela Crawley (Lanark and Patrick Grady Apsana Begum (Poplar and Bell Ribeiro-Addy Hamilton East) (SNP) Limehouse) (Lab) Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Rebecca Harris Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Stuart Andrew Aylesford) (Con) Valley) (Con) John Cryer (Leyton and Chris Elmore Jake Berry (Rossendale and Stuart Andrew Wanstead) (Lab) Darwen) (Con) Janet Daby (Lewisham East) Chris Elmore Mhairi Black (Paisley and Patrick Grady (Lab) Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Geraint Davies (Swansea Dawn Butler Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Patrick Grady West) (Lab/Co-op) Lochaber) (SNP) Mims Davies (Mid Sussex) Stuart Andrew Bob Blackman (Harrow East) Stuart Andrew (Con) (Con) Mr David Davis (Haltemprice Stuart Andrew Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen Patrick Grady and Howden) (Con) North) (SNP) Martyn Day (Linlithgow and Patrick Grady Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con) Stuart Andrew East Falkirk) (SNP) Mr Peter Bone Stuart Andrew Marsha De Cordova Rachel Hopkins (Wellingborough) (Con) (Battersea) (Lab) Steven Bonnar (Coatbridge, Patrick Grady Martin Docherty-Hughes Patrick Grady Chryston and Bellshill) (SNP) (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP) Ben Bradley (Mansfield) Stuart Andrew Allan Dorans (Ayr, Carrick Patrick Grady (Con) and Cumnock) (SNP) Andrew Bridgen (North West Stuart Andrew Ms Nadine Dorries (Mid Stuart Andrew Leicestershire) (Con) Bedfordshire) (Con) Deidre Brock (Edinburgh Patrick Grady Steve Double (St Austell and Stuart Andrew North and Leith) (SNP) Newquay) (Con) Ms Lyn Brown (West Ham) Chris Elmore Peter Dowd (Bootle) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Lab) Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Chris Elmore Richard Burgon (Leeds East) Zarah Sultana Erdington) (Lab) (Lab) Rosie Duffield (Canterbury) Chris Elmore Conor Burns (Bournemouth Stuart Andrew (Lab) West) (Con) Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con) Jeremy Hunt Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Chris Elmore Ruth Edwards (Rushcliffe) Stuart Andrew Hodge Hill) (Lab) (Con) Amy Callaghan (East Patrick Grady Mrs Natalie Elphicke (Dover) Maria Caulfield Dunbartonshire) (SNP) (Con) Gregory Campbell (East Sammy Wilson Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) Chris Elmore Londonderry) (DUP) (Lab) Sir William Cash (Stone) Stuart Andrew Dr Luke Evans (Bosworth) Stuart Andrew (Con) (Con) 883 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote19 OCTOBER 2020 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 884

Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy

Sir David Evennett Stuart Andrew Adam Holloway (Gravesham) Maria Caulfield (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con) (Con) Sir George Howarth Chris Elmore Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) Stuart Andrew (Knowsley) (Lab) (Con) Dr Neil Hudson (Penrith and Stuart Andrew Stephen Farry (North Down) Wendy Chamberlain The Border) (Con) (Alliance) Imran Hussain (Bradford Chris Elmore Marion Fellows (Motherwell Patrick Grady East) (Lab) and Wishaw) (SNP) Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) Chris Elmore Margaret Ferrier (Rutherglen Jonathan Edwards (Lab) and Hamilton West) (Ind) Mr Ranil Jayawardena (North Stuart Andrew Katherine Fletcher (South Stuart Andrew East Hampshire) (Con) Ribble) (Con) Dr Caroline Johnson Stuart Andrew Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen Patrick Grady (Sleaford and North South) (SNP) Hykeham) (Con) Vicky Foxcroft (Lewisham, Chris Elmore Dame Diana Johnson Chris Elmore Deptford) (Lab) (Kingston upon Hull North) Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh Stuart Andrew (Lab) and Wickford) (Con) Simon Jupp (East Devon) Stuart Andrew George Freeman (Mid Bim Afolami (Con) Norfolk) (Con) Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Stuart Andrew Marcus Fysh (Yeovil) (Con) Stuart Andrew Melton) (Con) Sir Roger Gale (North Caroline Nokes Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Chris Elmore Thanet) (Con) Eccles South) (Lab) Patricia Gibson (North Patrick Grady Afzal Khan (Manchester, Chris Elmore Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP) Gorton) (Lab) Preet Kaur Gill (Birmingham, Chris Elmore Edgbaston) (Lab/Co-op) Sir Greg Knight (East Stuart Andrew Yorkshire) (Con) Dame Cheryl Gillan Stuart Andrew (Chesham and Amersham) Julian Knight (Solihull) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Mrs Pauline Latham (Mid William Wragg Mary Glindon (North Chris Elmore Derbyshire) (Con) Tyneside) (Lab) Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab) Kate Osborne Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone Stuart Andrew Chris Law (Dundee West) Patrick Grady and The Weald) (Con) (SNP) Peter Grant (Glenrothes) Patrick Grady Ian Levy (Blyth Valley) (Con) Stuart Andrew (SNP) Clive Lewis (Norwich South) Lloyd Russell-Moyle Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) Patrick Grady (Lab) (SNP) Margaret Greenwood (Wirral Chris Elmore Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger Stuart Andrew West) (Lab) (Bridgwater and West Somerset) (Con) Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Chris Elmore Reddish) (Lab) Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab) Chris Elmore Fabian Hamilton (Leeds Chris Elmore Marco Longhi (Dudley Stuart Andrew North East) (Lab) North) (Con) Claire Hanna (Belfast South) Ben Lake Mr Jonathan Lord (Woking) Stuart Andrew (SDLP) (Con) Ms Harriet Harman Chris Elmore Holly Lynch (Halifax) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Camberwell and Peckham) Kenny MacAskill (East Patrick Grady (Lab) Lothian) (SNP) Sir Oliver Heald (North East Stuart Andrew Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na Patrick Grady Hertfordshire) (Con) h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Sir Mark Hendrick (Preston) Chris Elmore (Lab/Co-op) Karl McCartney (Lincoln) Stuart Andrew (Con) Drew Hendry (Inverness, Patrick Grady Nairn, Badenoch and Andy McDonald Chris Elmore Strathspey) (SNP) (Middlesbrough) (Lab) Simon Hoare (North Dorset) Fay Jones Stuart C. McDonald Patrick Grady (Con) (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (SNP) Dame Margaret Hodge Chris Elmore (Barking) (Lab) John McDonnell (Hayes and Zarah Sultana Mrs Sharon Hodgson Chris Elmore Harlington) (Lab) (Washington and Sunderland Cherilyn Mackrory (Truro Stuart Andrew West) (Lab) and Falmouth) (Con) Kate Hollern (Blackburn) Chris Elmore John Mc Nally (Falkirk) Patrick Grady (Lab) (SNP) 885 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote19 OCTOBER 2020 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 886

Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy

Khalid Mahmood Chris Elmore Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Ben Lake (Birmingham, Perry Barr) Meirionnydd) (PC) (Lab) Selaine Saxby (North Devon) Stuart Andrew Christian Matheson (City of Chris Elmore (Con) Chester) (Lab) Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) Stuart Andrew Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab) Kate Osborne (Con) Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Chris Elmore Stephen Metcalfe (South Stuart Andrew Southall) (Lab) Basildon and East Thurrock) Mr Barry Sheerman Chris Elmore (Con) (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op) Edward Miliband (Doncaster Chris Elmore Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh Patrick Grady North) (Lab) East) (SNP) Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) Stuart Andrew Tulip Siddiq (Hampstead and Chris Elmore (Con) Kilburn) (Lab) Carol Monaghan (Glasgow Patrick Grady Alyn Smith (Stirling) (SNP) Patrick Grady North West) (SNP) Chloe Smith (Norwich North) Stuart Andrew Anne Marie Morris (Newton Stuart Andrew (Con) Abbot) (Con) Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con) Stuart Andrew David Morris (Morecambe Stuart Andrew Royston Smith Robert Courts and Lunesdale) (Con) (Southampton, Itchen) (Con) Joy Morrissey (Beaconsfield) Stuart Andrew Dr Ben Spencer (Runnymede Stuart Andrew (Con) and Weybridge) (Con) Ian Murray (Edinburgh Chris Elmore Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) Stuart Andrew South) (Lab) (Con) James Murray (Ealing North) Chris Elmore Jamie Stone (Caithness, Wendy Chamberlain (Lab/Co-op) Sutherland and Easter Ross) Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Patrick Grady (LD) Renfrewshire North) (SNP) Sir Gary Streeter (South West Stuart Andrew John Nicolson (Ochil and Patrick Grady Devon) (Con) South Perthshire) (SNP) Mel Stride (Central Devon) Stuart Andrew Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) Rebecca Harris (Con) (Con) Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Patrick Grady Guy Opperman (Hexham) Stuart Andrew Central) (SNP) (Con) Gareth Thomas (Harrow Chris Elmore Abena Oppong-Asare (Erith Chris Elmore West) (Lab/Co-op) and Thamesmead) (Lab) Richard Thomson (Gordon) Patrick Grady Kate Osamor (Edmonton) Nadia Whittome (SNP) (Lab/Co-op) Edward Timpson (Eddisbury) Stuart Andrew Kirsten Oswald (East Patrick Grady (Con) Renfrewshire) (SNP) Jon Trickett (Hemsworth) Dawn Butler Mr Owen Paterson (North Stuart Andrew (Lab) Shropshire) (Con) Karl Turner (Kingston upon Chris Elmore Sir Mike Penning (Hemel Stuart Andrew Hull East) (Lab) Hempstead) (Con) Dr Jamie Wallis (Bridgend) Stuart Andrew Matthew Pennycook Chris Elmore (Con) (Greenwich and Woolwich) David Warburton (Somerton Stuart Andrew (Lab) and Frome) (Con) Dr Dan Poulter (Central Peter Aldous Claudia Webbe (Leicester Bell Ribeiro-Addy Suffolk and North Ipswich) East) (Ind) (Con) Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Patrick Grady Lucy Powell (Manchester Chris Elmore Ayrshire) (SNP) Central) (Lab/Co-op) Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC) Ben Lake Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton Chris Elmore Pete Wishart (Perth and Patrick Grady South East) (Lab) North Perthshire) (SNP) Christina Rees (Neath) (Lab/ Chris Elmore Mohammad Yasin (Bedford) Chris Elmore Co-op) (Lab) Ellie Reeves (Lewisham West Chris Elmore and Penge) (Lab) 253WH 19 OCTOBER 2020 Pet Theft 254WH

reform is urgently needed. Pet theft is a sickening and Westminster Hall depraved crime. Those with pets and all who have had pets can only imagine the sense of loss, anger and Monday 19 October 2020 hopelessness they would feel if their pets were snatched away from them in such cruel circumstances, not knowing whether they were encountering abuse, being used for [SIR DAVID AMESS in the Chair] inhumane breeding practices or exploited for illegal fighting in the case of dogs. In some ways, this must feel Pet Theft worse than when they simply pass away. [Relevant Documents: Written evidence to the Petitions We love our pets in this country. They are our Committee on pet theft, reported to the House on 16 June, companions through thick and thin. They are a unique 23 June and 27 July.] source of friendship. They are irreplaceable members of the family in so many households. Yet, when it comes to 4.30 pm them being stolen, in the vast majority of cases, our pets are treated no differently under the Theft Act 1968 than Sir David Amess (in the Chair): I remind hon. Members, replaceable and inanimate objects, such as mobile phones if they have not participated in one of these resumed and laptops. The primary focus in the law on monetary Westminster Hall sittings, that we now have call lists, worth means that the theft of pets deemed to be worth which are available. I am chairing the first half hour of less than £500 can only be classed as a category 3 or 4 this debate and I will then join you in the main body. offence. That results in pitiful fines, often no more than Mr Robertson will take over from me in half an hour’s £250, being the normal punishment for pet thieves. time. Members should sanitise their microphones before and after using them. Those are the instructions. Members Of course, even those meagre fines only apply if should only speak from the horseshoe. Members are criminals are brought to justice. The data Dr Allen has not expected to remain for the wind-ups, but, if they compiled from a freedom of information request shows can, to stay for one or two speeches after they have that in 2009, only 19 dog theft crimes resulted in charges spoken. out of a total of 1,575 crimes in the police force areas that we have data for. That is just over 1%. In the There are 19 people on the call list, including myself. overwhelming majority of cases there is no justice at all. They are not all here at the moment. One person who With the likelihood of such weak sentences being the was going to be late has now arrived. Another person result of a successful investigation, the police simply do has withdrawn, so we have 18 people. If we are to get not have the right incentives to put stretched resources everyone in—I know the Front-Bench spokespeople into bringing these criminals to justice. will co-operate—speeches will be three or four minutes at most. The status quo does not reflect the place pets have in modern society and that they are invaluable members of 4.31 pm the family.Unlike a mobile phone or laptop, the monetary value of our pets is what we care about the least. That is Tom Hunt (Ipswich) (Con): I beg to move, why many heartbroken victims post rewards for the That this House has considered e-petitions 244530 and 300071 return of their pet that are many times higher than the relating to pet theft. pet’s nominal monetary value. It is an honour to serve under your chairmanship, Criminals know that the status quo is ripe for Sir David. I want to start by congratulating Dr Daniel exploitation, and that has left us unguarded against the Allen, the animal geographer from Keele University, surge in cases over lockdown, as more and more people who started both pet theft petitions, with over want the companionship that pets offer. Just 25 out of 100,000 signatures, which we are here to debate. I met 44 police forces have provided freedom of information virtually with Dr Allen and a number of other campaigners data on dog theft for January to July this year, but from the Stolen and Missing Pets Alliance in June, already the figure stands at 645 dog theft crimes committed, when these debates were not possible. I know how much with only two resulting in charges. In my own county of work they have done over years to raise awareness of Suffolk, there were 11 dog theft crimes in the whole pet theft, and to help to reunite victims with their stolen of 2019, but in just the first seven months of this year pets. I am pleased that pet theft reform has eventually that number has already doubled to 21. got the debate that it deserves today. Dr Allen’s collated data, which includes FOI responses I also want to thank the more than 117,000 people to Ben Parker of BBC Suffolk, shows that Avon and who signed the 2019 petition calling for tougher sentencing Somerset, Devon and Cornwall, North Yorkshire and for pet theft, and the more than 143,000 people who Northamptonshire have had more dog theft crimes in signed the second petition in 2020, including the 417 people the first seven months of 2020 than in the whole of last in my constituency of Ipswich. It is thanks to their year. We must also remember that one dog theft crime engagement with our democratic process that we are does not mean one dog stolen. Shocking cases such as debating this important issue today. I also want to the theft of 17 dogs and puppies from boarding kennels thank my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud (Siobhan in Barton Mills, Suffolk, in July would be recorded as Baillie), who could not be here today, but has worked only a single crime. Our pets are being snatched away with me on this campaign, as well as my hon. Friend the from us in record numbers this year, just when we need Member for Dartford (Gareth Johnson), who has been their companionship the most. very active on this issue over a number of years. Lockdown is a period of loneliness and isolation for All the signatories of these petitions recognise, as I many, and it has taken its toll on everyone’s mental will argue today, that currently pet theft is not treated health, but for so many people their pets have been a with the seriousness it deserves in our society, and constant source of company. At the height of lockdown, 255WH Pet Theft 19 OCTOBER 2020 Pet Theft 256WH

[Tom Hunt] needed, but I challenge anyone to find a case where the maximum sentence has been imposed. Such sentences I set up a service called “Talks with Tom”, where any are available only in Crown courts, but the significant constituent could have a phone call with me if they felt majority of cases stay in magistrates courts, where the that they needed someone to have a chat with. I will maximum prison sentence is just six months. I also never forget one older gentleman who called me. He was appreciate that the Sentencing Council’s guidelines take living alone after his wife had sadly passed away. His into account the emotional distress caused to victims, wife had a cat, which was very much her cat and which but the truth is that as long as the monetary worth of a he never really got on with. When she died, he reluctantly pet is a primary factor for deciding the category of inherited the pet, which had never shown him much offence, the weight that a judge can apply to emotional affection. He told me how it was during lockdown that distress in sentencing is severely restricted. he and his cat had grown to become inseparable, and Changing the law should be our goal, but given what the closest of friends during difficult times. we have seen over the past few months, we must act There will be heart-warming stories about how our now. Last week, I met my right hon. and learned Friend pets have kept us going through lockdown all across the the Lord Chancellor and John Cooper QC, who is country, but the unprecedented times that we are living providing legal advice to the pet theft reform campaign, through make the increasing number of stories about to discuss how the Sentencing Council could amend its pets being snatched away all the more harrowing. This guidelines to make specific mention of pet theft. That weekend I spoke to Katy-Ellen from Maple Cross in would give judges the tools that they need to take into Hertfordshire, who is the mother of 10-year-old George. account, to a far greater extent, the aggravating factors Their dog, Trigger, a beautiful black-and-white English in pet theft cases and to impose tougher prison sentences springer spaniel had been a present for George when he without having to change the law. I thank my right hon. was nine. George calls Trigger his brother, and Trigger and learned Friend for taking the meeting, and I hope kept George company on long adventures through the he will consider writing to the Sentencing Council to woods during lockdown, but on 21 August Trigger was recommend that those changes are made. lured out of the back door of their home and stolen Covid-19 has made pet theft reform more pressing, from them. not less. I promised campaigners in our virtual meeting Understandably, that has left the family distraught in this summer that I would try to secure this debate as a way that cannot be compared with how they would soon as possible. There has been so much heartbreak have felt had a thief simply walked in through the back during the pandemic, but we now have an opportunity and taken a phone off the kitchen counter. Katy-Ellen to stop the theft of our beloved pets continuing to be said something very telling when she said that the part of it. They deserve our protection, and so do taking of George’s brother felt victims. “more like a kidnapping than a theft”. She has not been able to get it out of her mind, and she I urge the Government to hear the petitioners and wakes up thinking about it. families across the country who are demanding justice. I also spoke to a gentleman called Jon Gaunt, a Our pets are always there for us. During this pandemic, gamekeeper at Brightling Park in Sussex. In his job, Jon they have been there for us more than ever. Now is the spends 90% of his time working in the park alone, time to be there for them. except for three springer spaniels: Poppy, Tilly and Pepper. He describes his dogs as living, breathing sources Sir David Amess (in the Chair): If hon. Members of company and affection, but on 14 May he felt as if he speak for between four and five minutes, everyone will had had his legs taken out from underneath him when be called. I call Mr Jim Shannon. he went into their kennels and found them gone. He has since been on a rollercoaster of emotions. He has got 4.42 pm Poppy back and is trying to claim Tilly, who is in a police pound, but Pepper remains missing. Jon told me Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Thank you, Sir David. just how gut-wrenching it is when his young granddaughter It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Ipswich still asks, “Where is Pepper?” (Tom Hunt). He and I have many things in common. The thieves who took Jon’s dogs used sophisticated We might not agree on everything, but one thing that we equipment to get into their locked kennels. We should do agree on is Ipswich football team. They are my son’s be under no illusions that it is organised crime groups team, so whenever I follow the scores on a Saturday, I that are planning and ruthlessly executing the thefts of am able to relate to the hon. Member, as I did when we our cherished pets. They know the money that they can had a conversation today. He told me that he is actually make from breeding pedigrees and selling puppies for a a Newcastle supporter—I think they are his second quick profit; yet we are fighting the growing tide with team, but that is by the way. It is really nice to speak in outdated and underpowered laws. The risk of small the debate. fines will not stop this type of organised crime. During my time in self-isolation, my faithful companion That is why we must have pet theft reform. Making was Autumn, a springer spaniel. When I was out in the pet theft a specific offence, as the petitions call for, garden, she faithfully joined me. In fact, she has been would elevate pet theft to a category 2 offence and faithful her whole life. I think someone had been very empower judges to hand out prison sentences of up to bad to her—we rescued the dog from Assisi Animal two years—sentences that represent something closer to Sanctuary, and we now keep her in the house. There is a justice, and an effective deterrent against this disgusting saying that a dog is “man’s best friend”, but you, crime. I know the Government have said in their written Sir David, and I both know that the Lord Jesus is our response to the petitions that the maximum penalty is best friend. He sticks closer than a brother. However, already seven years and that reform is therefore not my dog Autumn definitely comes a close second. 257WH Pet Theft 19 OCTOBER 2020 Pet Theft 258WH

The matter of dog theft is so pertinent, given that the having organised the parliamentary pet of the year theft of dogs—particularly gun dogs and shooting dogs— competition. I was lucky enough to meet your dogs at the has risen dramatically. I can understand the heartache time, and I know you saw some lovely photographs of that comes from losing a faithful friend that loves their my Bosun. I also congratulate my hon. Friend the Member owner and is always happy to see them, no matter how for Ipswich (Tom Hunt) on securing this important debate. burdened and low they feel. I understand that it is hard I will concentrate on a manifesto pledge that the to put a value on the friendship of a dog, but it is truly a Conservative party and, to be fair, the Labour party disservice to have a legal principle that restricts judges made at the last election, which was to seek compulsory from imposing a fine greater than the monetary amount microchipping of cats. As the co-chairman of the all-party paid for a dog. In the eyes of the law currently, dogs are parliamentary group on cats and as the proud owner of taken like any other form of property, so the punishment two VIPs—that is, very important pets—I feel it is time for dog theft is determined by the monetary value of the to bring in the right regulations to require the compulsory dog. As such, the fines given are mostly paltry. microchipping of owned cats. I put on my record my position in relation to Northern I had Milly microchipped, and the newest addition to Ireland, which has introduced micro-chipping. I see that the Murray-Davidson household is Louis, who came that might now move across to the rest of the UK. from Cats Protection. Little Louis’ former owner had There are horrific cases of dogs being stolen to participate poor health, so he needed a new home. He came chipped in dog fights. Someone’s pampered pooch, which has because Cats Protection believes that cats should be been reared to be so gentle and loving, is thrown into a microchipped so that, where possible, they can be reunited ring for bets. Even just saying that makes me feel sick to with their owners. I agree, and I thank Cats Protection my stomach. Weallow fines that say, “There are no papers for all its help to cats everywhere. to prove its pedigree, so it’s worth only about £50.” Unfortunately, I have to report that in recent years What is the value of someone’s dog? For me, it is a lot cat theft has been a growing problem, including in my more than £50. It adds insult to stomach-churning injury. area of local Devon and Cornwall. A microchip increases That is why I wholly support the Dogs Trust in its the chance that a pet will end up back with their rightful calls for the Sentencing Council to amend existing owner, although, as one of my constituents pointed out guidelines to ensure that all cases of companion theft to me this morning, we must ensure that all the details are considered category 1 or category 2 crimes at a on the register are up to date. I urge the Minister to minimum, regardless of monetary value. I further support make it compulsory, when vets see these pets, for the the Dogs Trust’s request to see accurate and consistent owner’s details to be updated, as that can often resolve recording and reporting of incidences of theft of a any dispute without the need for litigation. companion animal. Dogs Trust has called for increased I understand from the Secretary of State that the penalties for animal cruelty offences and strongly supports response to the call for evidence on cat microchipping, a Bill that would, which closed on 4 January, has been held up due to “increase the maximum sentence for animal cruelty offences from covid-19. While I understand that, I also call for all 6 months to 5 years”— possible speed, because during lockdown people have that is the sort of legislation I want to see in place— been so much more reliant on their pets for company, as “address the protracted periods some dogs may spend in kennels has been mentioned. My own mother-in-law, who lives during a court case and introduce a way of expediating the in Wales, often only has her pet Jess for company. We process or allowing the rehoming of seized animals”, Zoom as much as we can, but it is Jess who has been and, there for her as a constant companion in the covid “introduce an automatic ban on owning animals if a person is world. Jess means so much the whole family, which is convicted of an animal cruelty offence, not only as a preventative measure to ensure that person commits no further offences but to why I am pleased that the Secretary of State has reported serve as an extra deterrent and better protect animal welfare.” that the Government are moving the situation along in They say that those who treat animals badly,mischievously, the next three months with the consultation. violently or cruelly are on a path to no good. I ask the Minister to give us an update on that, and I Let me be clear: sentencing will never bring a beloved also ask for an update on when we will see legislation animal home to where it was completely loved, but it coming to Parliament. There is no doubt that the will allow someone who is grieving to feel that their loss compulsory microchipping of dogs, which came in in is somewhat understood. It will also act as a deterrent. 2016, has worked, but I believe that it can be improved When people understand, they will not have the thought, through the updating of ownership details, and that it is “Sure, it’s only an old dog.”; they will know that they now time for cats to be treated equally in the eyes of the will be taken seriously and the consequences of their law, which could massively help when it comes to despicable actions will be heavy indeed. prosecuting and proving pet theft. When I think of so many of our elderly, whose 4.49 pm companions provide such love, affection and company, especially in these days of isolation, there should be no John Lamont (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk) doubt in the mind of any criminal that this is a serious (Con): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, matter. We want to ensure that today. It is up to this Sir David, and indeed to be speaking again in Westminster House and, I must say, up to the Minister as well; we Hall. It is a privilege to follow my hon. Friend the look forward to her response to our request. Member for South East Cornwall (Mrs Murray) and I also pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for 4.46 pm Ipswich (Tom Hunt) for his opening remarks. Mrs Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con): It [MR LAURENCE ROBERTSON in the Chair] is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir David. I know how committed to you are to all parliamentary pets, I see that Sir David is no longer in the Chair. 259WH Pet Theft 19 OCTOBER 2020 Pet Theft 260WH

[John Lamont] 4.53 pm Jane Stevenson (Wolverhampton North East) (Con): I am here today to participate in this debate because— It is a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, unusually—the highest number of signatures on e-petition Mr Robertson. 244530 came from my constituency of Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk, in the Scottish borders. Indeed, I am so pleased to have the opportunity to speak in my colleagues in neighbouring constituencies—the right this debate this afternoon because it is on such an hon. Members for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Anne-Marie important issue to me personally and to many millions Trevelyan)andforDumfriesshire,ClydesdaleandTweeddale of pet-lovers in the UK. I am proud that the Government (David Mundell)—also have a high number of constituents are making significant progress on animal welfare, by who have signed this particular petition. It would seem seeking to clamp down on puppy farms and puppy that rural dwellers of the borderlands have a deep love smuggling, and legislating on microchipping. I look of our pets—and who can blame us? forward to Friday this week and speaking in the debate on the Animal Welfare (Sentencing) Bill, which is known Being an elected Member, either in this place or in the as Finn’s Law Part 2. These are really valuable measures. Scottish Parliament, for over 13 years, and now travelling I trust the current Government to take animal welfare to London every week, it would not be fair for a pet to very seriously, and I know how many animal-lovers be left at my home in Coldstream. Indeed, I am sure there are in the Government. that most of my friends would say that I struggle to look after myself, never mind a pet. However, being the However, I urge the Government to rethink the current son of a farmer, I grew up with animals and pets all laws on sentencing for pet theft. It is a growing crime around. Indeed, I am a big fan of my parents’ dog, and I feel that the law must be improved to reflect its Hector, and I understand the delights that having a pet seriousness and the impact on pet-owners of having at home can bring. their pets stolen. In lockdown, as the demand for pets has risen, so has the price for certain breeds of dogs and As other Members have alluded to, our pets are ever cats. Puppies and kittens are now big business. As the more integral to our lives. During this pandemic, our price of those pets increases, so do the potential rewards dogs and cats have been our much-needed companions for criminals. With every crime there is a balance of risk and a much-needed source of perspective on the things and reward. With hard sentencing we could deter people going on around us. I fully understand the attachment from pet theft. We heard from my hon. Friend the that we all have for our pets and the important part they Member for Ipswich (Tom Hunt) that only 1% of pet play in our family lives. They provide comfort, laughter thefts come to prosecution. That is clearly a failure for and fun, and their energy and friendship are sorely pet owners. Criminals must believe that they will be missed when they are gone, so I fully understand the caught, sentenced and punished at a level that will deter calls for making the theft of a living, breathing sentient other people. The maximum penalty is seven years’ being a separate criminal offence. imprisonment, which does sound appropriate and does However, before I go further, I will pay tribute to sound like a deterrent but, as we have heard today, most Georgie Bell in my constituency. Almost two years ago, pet theft cases stay in magistrates courts, and it is her family’s two border terriers, Ruby and Beetle, extremely unlikely that anyone would face a significant disappeared from their home near Jedburgh. Her campaign custodial sentence for pet theft. to find her dogs and to change the law on dog theft The main point I want to focus on today is how the reached the local and national press. She knows the penalty is linked to the value of the theft. We have heard heartbreak and emotional trauma that losing a pet can how under £500 is recommended as a category 3 or cause. The Facebook page set up to help find Ruby and category 4 theft. At this point I will declare my own Beetle has over 16,000 members, who are keen advocates interest. My two Cavalier King Charles spaniels, Cromwell of this petition, which perhaps explains the huge support and Bertie, have little, if any, financial value. They are for it from the borders and the surrounding areas. eight years old and clapped out. One has horrific dental In the short time that I have left, I will raise a issues and the other has a significant heart murmur. If particular issue with the Minister, which I think is anything, they are a financial liability but, to me, without relevant to this debate. Mandatory microchipping has a shadow of a doubt they are the most valuable things been a very welcome step forward and I understand that in the world. In a trade-off between all my worldly the law on it is now consistent across all parts of the goods and my two dogs I, like many pet owners, would United Kingdom. However, the case that I have just not hesitate for a moment. raised—of Ruby and Beetle—shows flaws in the system. While the financial value is still considered, we will The microchip of one of the dogs has been run several not see fairness in sentencing. Why should someone times since it went missing, yet the owners have no way who steals my pet face a far less harsh sentence than of knowing where this has been done or by who.Apparently, someone stealing a designer puppy that the law decides this is because of data protection, yet it seems to me is worth £3,000 versus my dogs that are worth no that this information would provide a potential lead to money at all? To sum up, I thank everyone who signed the stolen pets’ whereabouts. This issue has been raised the petition to look again at pet theft sentencing. It is this year by the BBC’s “Rip Off Britain” and I would be really important. It is common sense. People want to see grateful if the Minister considered it further. that fairness, and I support the petition. Finally, I again thank the Bell family from Jedburgh for their campaigning on this issue, as well as those in my constituency who have signed this important petition. 4.57 pm My thanks also go to the Petitions Committee and my Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con): I think everyone in hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich for bringing it to this room would agree that pet theft is a particularly Westminster Hall today. nasty offence. It is incredibly stressful for the owner and 261WH Pet Theft 19 OCTOBER 2020 Pet Theft 262WH for the dog itself when it is stolen. I think the problem 5.1 pm emanates from the Sentencing Council guidelines. Much Matt Vickers (Stockton South) (Con): I thank all the has been mentioned about that. My hon. Friend the people who signed the petition and the hon. Member Member for Ipswich (Tom Hunt) and other speakers for Ipswich (Tom Hunt) for introducing this debate on spoke about how Sentencing Council guidelines are this important issue. It is an issue of great personal and insufficient. emotional significance to many people whom I represent. In 2016, I wrote to the Sentencing Council to ask it to The increasing incidence of pet theft causes huge distress change the guidelines so that there was less emphasis and trauma across our pet-loving nation. With numbers placed on the value of the piece of property that was soaring in recent months, the DogLost organisation stolen: in this case an animal. It came back to me and suggests 2020 will be the worst year for the theft of said that the current guidelines were perfectly acceptable, dogs. Pet theft is increasing across the country, with and even mentioned the fact that pedigree dogs are very horrific incidents of people being attacked and dogs often worth more than £500, and therefore it was not stolen in front of their eyes. Burglaries are committed necessary to change the guidelines, but that misses the purely to steal pets and owners are left to hope for the whole point of this particular crime. I have a golden best, knowing that their pets could be sold on, used in retriever that is worth probably less than 50p: a 12-year-old horrific dog fighting and, in some cases, used for breeding golden retriever called Fred that is definitely not worth in cruel and dirty puppy farms. stealing. However, that misses the point. It is a member I have heard the stories of heartbroken constituents, of the family that is being stolen, which is why we see so who can sometimes spend weeks and months looking many tears from people who have gone through this for their pets in the hope they have been lost and will awful experience. The animals are stolen simply because return, with sleepless nights at the loss of their furry the crime is low risk with a high reward. If someone friend and the thought of what might have happened to knows they are not likely to be sent to prison because them. To many, pets can be part of the family, lifetime the value of the dog is less than £500, that is a very companions, there as company making memories in the attractive crime to commit. That is why unfortunately good times but also there in our hour of need. The we are seeing an increasing number of people carrying pandemic has made many appreciate that company out the offence. It was happening before lockdown, and even more, as people are spending more time at the the numbers have shot up since because the value of local park or in front of the television. dogs has gone up and there is an even greater reward, but with the same low risk for people carrying out these My mother has four sons, and if faced with the dastardly offences. choice between having one of us or Archie, her beloved Bichon Frise, stolen, I am not entirely confident which If the Sentencing Council is so stubborn that it will she would opt for—and I do not think he is worth much not change its guidelines, Parliament could step in and either. Without doubt, pets and their owners can have a make it a specific offence to steal an animal, which the priceless relationship that is beyond any monetary value. petition alludes to. If we did that, it would give the It is for that reason that the law must reflect the non- courts separate powers to impose the sentences that we monetary value of pets. After all, when the worst comes all want to see for such a crime. Unfortunately, we do to the worst, a stereo, TV or bicycle can be replaced; not have a specific offence for that. We have a specific many of our pets are entirely irreplaceable. offence of stealing a pedal cycle, but not of stealing a member of the family. That cannot be right, and the The punishment for pet theft must reflect the pain Sentencing Council needs to reconsider that. and suffering caused by such a heinous act and the emotional impact of losing a loved one. It must also act I pay tribute to the work of the Stolen and Missing as a deterrent to those who would consider doing such Pets Alliance, which has done some tremendous things an awful thing. I support the petition entirely and urge in highlighting the crime, particularly Debbie Matthews, the Government to review their approach to the theft of who has worked tirelessly to try and bring about a pets, acknowledging their unique value in this nation of change in the rules. I also pay tribute to Kent police, one pet lovers. of the forces that takes the matter seriously. In many parts of the country, when the police are called to investigate the stealing of a dog, it is simply recorded as 5.3 pm missing when the owner knows it has been stolen. Peter Gibson (Darlington) (Con): It is a pleasure to Consequently, we are seeing lower official figures for serve under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson. If I the theft of a dog than is actually the case. In addition, have my phone, wallet or car stolen, they are insured when a dog is recorded as stolen, it is put in as theft of a and can be replaced, virtually on a like-for-like basis. It chattel, which means it is difficult to get facts and would be frustrating, inconvenient, I would be angry figures on how courts are sentencing people for those and annoyed. Naturally, I would want the thief to face offences. Wehave to go on anecdotal and experience-based the full force of the law. However, if Clemmie, my examples to try to get to the bottom of what is taking nine-year-old Jack Russell, Peppy, my seven-year-old place. Labrador, or Ebony, my four-year-old Labrador were There are some good things going on out there, but stolen, they could not be replaced. They are an integral more needs to be done about the matter. I urge the part of my family, individual in character and each Minister to use her good offices to persuade the Sentencing providing a unique and special companionship to me Council on that, if that is possible can. I am pleased and to members of my family. that this is a cross-party interest and that we are at one I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich on the issue. Hopefully, collectively, we can either get (Tom Hunt) on bringing today’s debate to Westminster the Sentencing Council to see sense or this place needs Hall, and I am pleased that the Petitions Committee has to take action and bring in a specific offence of dog theft. given us time to debate the topic, which affects many of 263WH Pet Theft 19 OCTOBER 2020 Pet Theft 264WH

[Peter Gibson] one. The kind of sentencing we are talking about cannot be treated simply in terms of monetary value, which our constituents. Between these two petitions, almost moves most of these crimes to classes 3 and 4 straightaway. 500 signatures came from my constituency of Darlington, That is clearly sub-optimal for sentencing. If anyone and I thank those constituents who took time to voice should dare to take my dear Winston, our Welsh springer their concerns. I know that many more of my constituents spaniel, I would want that to go immediately to category are dog owners who, like me, consider their four-legged 1, as I value him personally way over £10,000. I do not friends to be part of their family. The theft of a pet is know about other Members and their dogs. That is at already a criminal offence under the Theft Act 1968, the heart of the matter. with a maximum penalty of seven years’ imprisonment. I look forward to the Minister’s reply to this important However, only one in five pets are ever returned to their debate, but I know that the good constituents of owners. With over 2,000 dogs stolen every year, there Montgomeryshire think the law is currently suboptimal. remain over 1,600 families who lose that member, never It was a pleasure to email my constituents today and say to be seen again. It is tragic and we should do more. that I was talking about pet theft, and to receive more While my canines collectively cost less than £800 to emails about pet theft than about Brexit and covid-19 in purchase, they have cost me significantly more in damage a day. It was a great pleasure to read my inbox today. to property, and in food and vet bills. Sadly, under the There is a huge strength of feeling that the law is simply law not one of them would be deemed of sufficient not working for pet owners at the moment. value to warrant anything nearing a custodial sentence There is a huge feeling in Montgomeryshire and rural were they stolen. Sentencing is about punishment and Wales that people are starting to fear for their pets. As rehabilitation, but it is also about setting a deterrent. Wales is locked down today by our wonderful Welsh With a low intrinsic value insufficient to warrant Government, people are looking for comfort. People investigation, four out of five dogs that are stolen are across Montgomeryshire and mid-Wales will be looking never recovered and the despicable people responsible to their pets for comfort. The least I can do for Winston, for dog theft sadly know that their chance of being my dear Welsh springer spaniel, and for my constituents caught or suffering a punishment is very low. and their pets is stand up today and implore the Minister I welcome the mandatory microchipping we now and our Government, who I know are looking hard at have. That has helped more pets to be reunited and this issue, to look specifically at the monetary value serves in the armoury of deterrents. It has thankfully point, amend the Theft Act 1968 and at the very least reduced the number of stray dogs on our streets. I also create a specific offence of pet theft, to do our pets welcome the recommendation for vets to carry out justice and give our constituents some heart that, if the routine scanning for new pets enrolled at their practices. unthinkable happens and their pets are dognapped or These measures are for dogs, but we as a nation should catnapped, there will be a sentence to match that offence. be extending them to cats too. I concur with my hon. I implore the Minister to do something about it. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall (Mrs Murray) that there should be mandatory chipping for cats. 5.10 pm The pet owners of Darlington and I believe that the Dr Kieran Mullan (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con): It is theft of a pet is much more damaging than the loss of a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson. an item of financial value. I believe that a specific I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Tom offence of pet theft or,at the very least, specific sentencing Hunt) for securing the debate. I know he is a passionate guidance based on more than the purchase cost of the supporter of animals. animal, will do much more to deter this dreadful crime. People across the country bring pets into their households and love and care for them as if they were members of 5.7 pm their family. We are a pet-loving nation. Sadly, despite a Craig Williams (Montgomeryshire) (Con): It is a reported fall in pet thefts in 2019, we have all talked pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson. about the strong anecdotal evidence that suggests pet I echo the compliments given by other Members to my theft shot up during lockdown. At least five dogs are hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Tom Hunt) on the stolen every day in England and Wales; that is five loved way in which he opened the debate and the equally to family members stolen from their home. To criminals, the Petitions Committee for recommending these petitions pets are money-making objects that can often be used for debate. They received over 100,000 signatures, which and abused to make a profit. As others have mentioned, shows better than I can the strength of feeling about Dr Allen from Keele University found that in 2018 only strengthening the law on the subject. 1% of pet thefts resulted in the thief being charged. As I pay tribute to Dr Allen and the campaign group, he said, sadly, criminals see pet theft as and to the Kennel Club and the Dogs Trust. I am sure it “a low-risk high-reward crime”. will not surprise hon. Members that a Dogs Trust That should not be the case. survey found that 99% of respondents considered their Almost 600 of my constituents have signed one of the pets to be a family member. I declare my interest, two petitions we are debating, asking for change. Pets MrRobertson.Winston,myWelshspringerspaniel—having are loved members of the family who bring us so much springer spaniels seems to be a theme around the room joy and happiness, and we need an approach that recognises today; clearly the Dogs Trust could do some research that they are more than just property. We need to make into parliamentarians and their springer spaniels—is, of it crystal clear to criminals that stealing a pet is a risky course, a member of the family. choice to make. I sympathise with the Government’s Monetary value goes to the root of the problem reluctance to introduce specific legislation. What counts about sentencing. If anyone was to put a business case for me is the outcome, not how we get there. As the together for getting a pet, they probably would not get Government’s written response to the petition points out: 265WH Pet Theft 19 OCTOBER 2020 Pet Theft 266WH

“The theft of a pet is already a criminal offence under the say how old he was. Both Mr Rudd-Clarke and his wife Theft Act 1968 and the maximum penalty is seven years’ very much enjoyed the company of Cleo. She was the imprisonment.” dog that got them out of the house to exercise in the However, all of us in the Chamber, and the Minister in fresh air in Hampshire—interestingly, one of the most particular, are in the unfortunate position of not being dog-friendly counties in the country. She has been their able to say what is happening on the ground. It is hard constant companion since she was a puppy, and she is a for the Government to defend their position and say it gorgeous blue roan—perhaps one of the prettiest dogs I is satisfactory when hon. Members who want to understand have ever seen. whether the law is working have tabled written questions I have seen Cleo because she has her own Facebook asking about average sentences and found we are not page, and on pretty much every telegraph pole and tree recording those statistics. The Government must tackle in the village of Wherwell is a picture of Cleo. Her that first so that, whatever decisions are made today owners had done the right thing: they had ensured that and in the near future, they—and we, as scrutinisers—can she was microchipped, and that the chip was registered judge whether the current approach is working. to their current address; she was spayed and she wore a If the Government will not move on legislation, they collar with her name and address on at all times. None must join us in engaging with the Sentencing Council. the less, Cleo went missing on 16 September on her Currently, there is an expectation that when a person routine walk. She is believed to have been stolen because steals something with a value of less than £500, they she simply vanished without trace, despite the villagers should get only a community order. We have heard of Wherwell going out with drones and thermal imaging many examples of pets that would not meet that threshold, cameras, and making appeals for dashcam footage. An so that bar should not exist. It is no surprise, therefore, entire community has pulled together to try to find this that people are concerned that custody is not being used dog, and we are all making her disappearance as well when it should be. The Government will point out that, known as we can, in the hope of making her too hot to yes, the guidelines do allow for additional weight be handle. given to the emotional impact surrounding an offence, Cleo was the sort of dog that came to a whistle. I but even when that is the case, the starting point becomes really admire anybody who can make a cocker spaniel just one year as a category 3 offence, which does not come to a whistle; I have certainly failed in my attempts provide a strong enough solution. with my beloved dog, Alfie. The assumption of those in We need to make it clear to criminals who snatch pets the village, of the owner and of the police is that Cleo from loving families that they are committing a serious was stolen, and the charity DogLost concurs. What a offence and they will be punished accordingly. We do wicked and despicable crime—to take a companion not know whether that is happening at the moment, and from an elderly gentleman. She was company, she was we cannot guarantee that it is. It would be appropriate exercise and she was part of the family, and she had to have a sentencing guideline specific to pet theft that been spayed, so her monetary value was much less asks judges to begin by thinking of it as a category 2 because of course she could not be used for breeding offence under current legislation, irrespective of the purposes. monetary value of the pet, which currently acts as an We have heard this afternoon that stealing a pet is no important limiting factor. That would leave discretion different in law from stealing any inanimate object, but but make it clear to judges, the public and, importantly, pets are not inanimate and the trauma of losing one is criminals that stealing a pet is serious, causing huge horrific. There needs to be a decoupling of sentencing distress to families and something they should think from the animal’s value. I know that the Minister will very carefully about doing. tell us that dog theft is already a crime under the Theft Act 1968, carrying a maximum penalty of seven years’ 5.14 pm imprisonment, but of course that sort of sentence is Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) very rarely handed down. I do not want to dwell on the (Con): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, reasons why a dog might be stolen—other Members Mr Robertson. I add my congratulations to my hon. have alluded to them—but they are horrific. Stolen Friend the Member for Ipswich (Tom Hunt) on opening dogs do not end up in the arms of a family that is going the debate and raising many of the points I would have to love them in the same way that the one they have made had I had the opportunity to make a long speech— been ripped from does. people will be relieved that I do not. My hon. Friend is a good Minister, who cares Over the last few days I have been contacted by many passionately about this issue, and I know that she has of my constituents, asking me to speak in the debate. the power to do something today. She can give us a steer Interestingly, the vast majority of those emails came that the Department for Environment, Food and Rural from Wherwell, one of the smallest villages in Test Affairs will seek to amend the Theft Act, which is over Valley. It struck me as being slightly odd that such a 50 years old, and bring it into line with how 21st-century disproportionate number came from one place, but Britain, and the village of Wherwell, feel about their pets. there is a very good reason for that. Although we have heard many heart-breaking stories—of Trigger; of Ruby Mr Laurence Robertson (in the Chair): With thanks to and Beetle—I would like to add the story of one more the next speaker for covering the first part of this dog: a small cocker spaniel called Cleo. sitting, I call Sir David Amess. Cleo was four years old when she was taken from her 5.18 pm owner, Mr Rudd-Clarke, an 85-year-old gentleman who lives in Wherwell. I hope that he does not mind me Sir David Amess (Southend West) (Con): I am very mentioning that he is 85. I told him I was going to speak embarrassed, Mr Robertson, that at the start of the this afternoon, but I did not tell him that I was going to debate I prevailed on colleagues to make short speeches; 267WH Pet Theft 19 OCTOBER 2020 Pet Theft 268WH

[Sir David Amess] different. As my hon. Friend the Member for Dartford said, the Sentencing Council needs to amend the existing they have been so brief, there will now be very long guidelines, to ensure that all cases of companion animal wind-ups, but I will leave that to your chairmanship. I theft are considered a category 1 or 2 crime as a minimum, congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich regardless of monetary value. (Tom Hunt) on the way he presented the petitions, and I commend him for the passion that he displayed right at Mr Laurence Robertson (in the Chair): We now come the end of his speech—absolutely splendid. to the Front Bench speeches. We need to leave two or We are, of course, a nation of animal lovers, and this three minutes at the end for Mr Hunt to respond. debate in Westminster Hall has displayed that we are a 5.22 pm House of Commons full of animal lovers, and I certainly commend that. I agree with all the points that colleagues Dr Lisa Cameron (East Kilbride, Strathaven and have made. I am very appreciative of Mrs Debbie Lesmahagow) (SNP): It is a privilege and pleasure to Matthews, the constituent of my hon. Friend the Member serve under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson. I thank for Dartford (Gareth Johnson) and the daughter of the hon. Member for Ipswich (Tom Hunt) for setting Bruce Forsyth, my favourite comedian, for her briefing the scene in such a detailed manner. At the start of the on this subject. debate, he showed us all, across parties, what an important issue this is, as well as the consensus that exists not only I very much agree that animals are sentient beings; in Parliament, but among members of the public. He science has proved that they can experience pain, suffering, also set out the impact that this crime has on victims, joy and comfort, but by equating them to property we not only the silent victims—the stolen pets themselves, are denying them the right to be considered sentient who often meet horrendous ends—but the families who beings. The Theft Act 1968 does just that, and I say to suffer the emotional and psychological impact of pet the Minister that it is old legislation. Pet theft was a theft, which I will return to in a moment. problem before coronavirus; it has escalated during the lockdown period, and it may continue to do so unless As chair of the all-party parliamentary dog advisory the Government take harsher action against the criminals welfare group, it is an honour to speak in this debate. I colleagues have been talking about today. know about this issue, not only from my constituency, but because I receive letters and emails from constituents I put it to the Minister that the public are sending the across the United Kingdom to the APPG saying how Government a strong message. Let us not forget that important it is. I hope the Minister will know that this this is the second pet theft debate and that there have issue is a priority for people across the UK. When those been three consecutive successful pet theft reform petitions. who contact me ask, “Which topic do you get most The Department for Environment, Food and Rural emails about from your constituents?”, I say, “Animal Affairs is currently reviewing the compulsory dog welfare.” I do not think my constituency is any different microchipping regulations. I agree with my hon. Friend from any other in that regard. This issue is a priority. the Member for South East Cornwall (Mrs Murray) There is a consensus among all parties and those who about microchipping cats. As well as reporting pet have spoken. I am sure we will take this forward in the thefts, microchipping also helps to return stolen pets. most positive way.I beseech the Minister to look seriously Several colleagues have said how much their animals at it, because we are here to serve the public. That is our are worth. We often look after one of my daughter’s job as MPs, and we must take the public’s priorities and French bulldogs, which is worth an absolute fortune—we its wishes forward. tend to cover up her European association. There has been a great deal of work already undertaken I am delighted to be sponsoring the Dogs and Domestic on these issues. I thank Dr Daniel Allen, Marc Abraham, Animals (Accommodation and Protection) Bill, promoted Beverley Cuddy from Dogs Today, who covers this issue by my hon. Friend the Member for Romford (Andrew repeatedly and is such a dog welfare fan herself, the Rosindell), which, among all other things, recognises Kennel Club, Battersea and Cats Protection, who have the importance of microchipping pets. However, there also been in touch with me—I also thank the hon. needs to be a single, complete database of microchipped Member for South East Cornwall (Mrs Murray) for cats and dogs, as there is for horses, and microchips mentioning cat theft, which is on the rise and is something must be compulsory, so that they can be checked against that we should take very seriously—Dogs Trust, the that database at every first vet appointment. Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, Debbie Matthews, who started Vets Get Scanning, the Scottish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to has been a champion in this area for many years and I Animals and Debbie Matthews from Vets Get Scanning. congratulate her. Pet theft is seldom investigated and We know there are many people out there working hard usually the only thefts that result in an investigation are on the frontline to support those who experience the those where dogs are stolen for puppy farming. That is tragedy of pet theft, but who also want to see that quite wrong. We have reports of the ridiculous sentences: change in legislation that we have all spoken of today. where there has been horrendous cruelty, criminals just I declare my own little interest as the owner of a get suspended sentences, whereas for metal theft people rescue dog, Rossi, a French bulldog who we think was are sent to prison for 12 years. It is absolutely ridiculous. probably puppy farmed. He has his tail docked and had The Government must amend the Theft Act 1968 some problems settling into the family at the start, but and make pet theft a specific offence with custodial he is absolutely part of the family now. If we were to sentences. Pets’ monetary value is, as other colleagues lose Rossi, it would be devastating not just for me and have said, relatively small compared with luxury items, my husband—although he does complain quite a bit which carry a sentence of seven years as a category 1 about having to take him out on long walks, especially crime. The punishment does not fit the crime as the loss as the winter months are approaching—but for our of an inanimate object compared to that of a pet is very children, who are very attached. 269WH Pet Theft 19 OCTOBER 2020 Pet Theft 270WH

It goes without saying that dogs should be treated as who engage in it, so it has very little consequence. When companions and family members, not just as property, there are crimes of this nature, that is part of the issue: and that that should be happening within the law. A people feel that they can engage in them without the survey found that 99% of pet owners consider their pets force of the law being brought to bear on them and to be family members, and there are great benefits to perhaps even without resources being put into seeking owning a pet dog, including improved physical health out the culprits. by encouraging exercise, which I do every day for my I thank everybody who has spoken today for a very husband, and reduced risk of depression and loneliness. consensual debate. I think that the Minister knows that Dog owners over 65 also make 30% fewer visits to the there is the weight of public opinion and opinion across doctor, so it is actually helping our NHS too. the House of Commons on her to take this matter The loss of a dog or any pet can be particularly hard forward. I am sure that she is as dedicated to these for those who have few others to turn to for companionship, animal welfare issues as the rest of us, and I very much and we know that those who have been in lockdown look forward to hearing her comments when she sums and isolated, or perhaps have been shielding, have found up the debate. great comfort in their pets. For anyone in that circumstance to have a pet stolen would be an absolute travesty. We, 5.31 pm as the House of Commons, need to act quickly on these Luke Pollard (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Lab/ issues. Co-op): I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Ipswich A study involving in-depth interviews with dog owners (Tom Hunt) for introducing the debate with such verve. who had experienced dog theft found that 30% reported The Member whom he replaced had a similar verve feelings of loss,grief or mourning; 48% described themselves when it came to animals, so there is clearly something in as “absolutely devastated” and 37% suffered severe the way Ipswich elects people that ensures that they are psychological or physiological effects after the dog was animal friendly. stolen. That shows that there must be recognition within Like others, I place on the record my thanks to the the law of the impact on people and their families. As researchers and other people who have been fighting so hon. Members have mentioned today, it is not similar to hard on this issue for so long. That is an aspect to which losing a mobile phone, a computer or a bike; it is absolutely I would like to return. As the hon. Member for Southend different and requires to be recognised as such. West (Sir David Amess) so ably and politely put it when We have, in fact, seen an increase in pet theft in 2020 mentioning it to the Minister, we have been here before. during the covid-19 pandemic, making it all the more No matter how good the debate has been—this has crucial that we act now. Wayne May from DogLost been a very good debate—it is not the quality of the stated: debate but the pressure on the Minister to act that we need to look at. “I’ve been doing this for 30 years now and it’s the worst ever year I’ve known.” We have all heard this stated before, but it is true that the theft of a pet is not a simple matter of theft of an People who steal dogs and pets are doing so for malicious item, nor should it be treated as such by the law. It is the reasons. I do not believe for a minute they could possibly callous and criminal removal of a family member. It is be doing it for the welfare of the pet or the family. kidnapping. It is something that strikes at the very Research often finds that the theft is orchestrated; it heart of the family unit. Pet theft is a tragedy that may be linked with criminal gangs and dog fighting, as should be measured more in emotional distress than in has already been mentioned today, or with monetary economic loss. value, breeding, puppy farming and making money from the dog or pet. The debate has touched on not just pet theft but a number of parallel issues relating to animal welfare and In my own constituency, a little dog was stolen as protection of animals: microchipping, animal cruelty, part of a robbery from a home for no other reason but criminal breeding, puppy farming and the import and malice, taken and thrown in to a fountain in the middle export of animals. I think that we should not just take of Glasgow,which is about 50 miles from my constituency. one item, as a line item, to look at what can be done, but Luckily, a caring member of the public found the dog recognise that pet theft plays into a much bigger concern and he was returned to his owner. However, I understand about the future and the welfare of our animals. One of from research that only one in five stolen dogs are found the opportunities, which has not been spoken about in and restored to their owners. This is a crime that often the debate so far, is that of bringing together those bits goes unpunished and those who are culpable are not of outstanding welfare legislation for which we are still brought to justice. In fact, of the 44 police forces in waiting. As the hon. Member for Wolverhampton North England and Wales, 24 provided data on recorded dog East (Jane Stevenson) hinted in her remarks, there is theft crimes, comparing 2019 with the first seven months enormous cross-party support for many of those items of 2020, and five out of the 24 police forces had more sitting in Ministers’ to-do trays. dog theft crimes in the seven months of January to I think that the approach that Ministers have adopted, July 2020 than in the whole of 2019. The number of dog especially since 2015, of parcelling up animal welfare theft crimes that led to charges was only 4.15% in 2015, into smaller and smaller Bills, smaller issues, and dealing 3.35% in 2016, 2.16% in 2017, 1.11% in 2018—the with them one by one is a fantastic way of gaining figure was actually reducing then, although it was a headlines, but it does not deal with the comprehensive very small base to start off with—and 1.21% in 2019. nature of some of those challenges. I encourage the Currently, therefore, very little deterrent exists. Minister to look at whether animal sentience and animal Steps must be taken to change the law, not only welfare sentencing—assuming that there is not enough because of the impact that I have described, but because time for the Bill that was spoken about; it is due to be this is a crime that basically goes unpunished for those debated on Friday, and I hope that there will be—as 271WH Pet Theft 19 OCTOBER 2020 Pet Theft 272WH

[Luke Pollard] not just in the moment of its being stolen, not just as regards the use of sophisticated machinery—as mentioned well as cat microchipping and the other issues can be by the hon. Member for Ipswich in reference to the theft wrapped up together in a flagship animal welfare Bill of a number of animals—and not just as being about that could be in the Queen’s Speech. I think that there opportunism. We also need to think about happens to would be enormous public support not just on this issue the animal afterwards. I know that when someone loses but for a whole host of other animal welfare concerns if an animal, they do not think about the economic cost, that were the case. they worry about what is happening to that animal at A number of hon. Members spoke passionately and that point. They worry about whether the animal is it is only appropriate that I mention some of them, trapped somewhere. “Can’t they get out? Are they okay? because it does tell a story about what is going on. The Is there something I can do to safeguard and protect the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Craig Williams), animal?” The worry and concern eats away. The SNP who is no longer in his place, talked about the law being spokesperson, the hon. Member for East Kilbride, sub-optimal and not working. That is a cross-party Strathaven and Lesmahagow (Lisa Cameron), spoke concern that was echoed right across the Chamber. The about the psychological torture at the moment of loss. reality of it, mentioned by the hon. Member for Darlington That is what is so cruel about this crime, because it is (Peter Gibson), is that only one in five animals are torturous. It is a form of torture when we lose an animal returned, meaning that enormous amounts of families along the way, and that needs to be properly reflected. are without their pets each and every year. That figure is These petitions are good petitions. There is an enormous important. opportunity to do something about the situation. We The hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Dr Kieran know that pets are not simply possessions. Labour are Mullan) talked about the importance of the data. I sympathetic to the need to do more to tackle pet theft, agree with him on that: the stretched police resource including considering the possible changes in the law and the real pressure on the police mean that in many that have been spoken about so passionately across the cases these crimes are not being properly recorded as Chamber today. There is an opportunity for Ministers pet theft. They are recorded as animals going missing, to work with campaigners, because despite the reasons or simply not at all. That is especially true of certain age that have been discussed for the Government refusing groups who do not want to be a burden or to bother the to act so far—that sentences already exist and that there authorities. They might sit at home desperately worried are criminal and sentencing guidelines—those measures about their animal, but will not want to make an appeal are not working. This is a moment to look again at not or burden the police with it. I say to all those people just the words on the page of the guidelines, but how who have lost or are worried about an animal to report they are being implemented. They are not being it. Animals in animal shelters up and down the country implemented in a way that, I believe, carries public are waiting to be reunited with people. It is important confidence in the measures. There is an opportunity to that we encourage that so that we can get the data, as change that. mentioned by the hon. Member, to make sure that the I hope that the Animal Welfare (Sentencing) Bill that work is being done properly. has, like this debate, been seen many times before will The hon. Member for Stockton South (Matt Vickers) get proper attention on Friday as a private Member’s said that pets are priceless, and indeed a number of Bill. Indeed, I have called on the Government to adopt Members have spoken today about the economic value it as a Government Bill to ensure that it has enough of their own animals in this regard. A law based simply time, and I encourage the Minister to make sure that is on an animal’s economic value will always discount and the case. disregard the emotional value of that animal. A bigger My neighbour, the hon. Member for South East change in animal welfare legislation is a theme we have Cornwall (Mrs Murray) spoke passionately about the seen in the past decade or so: we are recognising not just need to microchip cats. Indeed, just before the last animals as little furry creatures, but their role within our general election some of us, in this same room, debated families and within our society, and the values we want the need to microchip cats. That was a compelling case to attach to those animals are being reflected in the then, and it remains a compelling case now. legislation that governs them. There has been a gap With the world in crisis, a jobs crisis looming and there, and there are opportunities to close that gap. I say covid-19 taking up much of the Government’s bandwidth, to the Member for Romsey and Southampton North how can we get animal welfare issues properly on the (Caroline Nokes) that we all wish the village of Wherwell agenda? I say to the Minister that wrapping them the best of luck with their endeavours in relation to together in a comprehensive animal welfare law is one finding Cleo. It is good to see so many people feeling way to do that, and I encourage her to include puppy strongly about the issue. smuggling as part of that. When we talk about puppy Animal welfare has been mentioned as a topic at the smuggling, we frequently talk about animals smuggled top of our inboxes. When I explain that to people, there into the United Kingdom, but there is also the reverse is an element of shock and surprise in their first instant trend. That is especially being used at the moment to reaction, “Is it not Brexit? Is it not covid-19?” Then satisfy the demand of people seeking to buy an animal there is the realisation that people love animals more during the lockdown. than they love people sometimes. It is no surprise to me We have heard a number of times during the debate that animal welfare is at the top of our agenda, and that about how pets offer such important companionship—they demands that the action follows it. are part of the family. We know there has been a real As a number of Members, including the hon. Member increase in the value of animals during the lockdown, for Strangford (Jim Shannon), have hinted, when we particularly dachshunds,English bulldogs,French bulldogs, talk about the theft of an animal we need to look at it pugs and chow chows—prices have been shooting up. 273WH Pet Theft 19 OCTOBER 2020 Pet Theft 274WH

The price of a dachshunds has shot up by a whopping for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Luke Pollard) 80% since the start of the lockdown. That is a market said—that it might be sensible to bring such issues that criminals will prey on, and I encourage the Minister together in one Bill—and I hope to have some news for to ensure that that is taken into account. him in that regard before too long. Plymouth is no different from many of the places that In terms of Government achievements in this area, in have been mentioned so far in the debate, and there is 2018 we replaced old laws on the regulation of pet enormous public concern that we should not find ourselves selling, dog breeding, animal boarding, riding schools here again in six months’ time. When the Minister and exhibiting animals.The regulations have strict statutory addresses hon. Members’ valid and well-put concerns, I minimum welfare standards that are enforced by local encourage her to offer reassurance that all the hundreds authorities. I am very excited about the private Member’s of thousands of people who signed the petition, including Bill this Friday, the Animal Welfare (Sentencing) Bill. 500 people in Plymouth, will not need to sign the same This Bill, if passed—I very much hope it will be, and the petition again to get another debate in order to put Government are 100% committed behind it—will increase pressure on a Minister to enact what is a very clear and the maximum custodial penalty for animal cruelty from obvious instruction from the public—indeed, from the six months’ imprisonment to five years. House—that we want to see pet theft taken more seriously. Microchipping has been rightly brought up by a number of hon. Members, and it certainly helps in the 5.42 pm sphere of pet theft and in returning animals to their TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforEnvironment, rightful place. To answer my hon. Friend the Member Food and Rural Affairs (Victoria Prentis): It is a pleasure for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk (John Lamont) to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson, and and my hon. Friend the Member for Southend West, that of my hon. Friend the Member for Southend West who made specific points on dog microchipping, a (Sir David Amess). I congratulate my hon. Friend the review will begin shortly into the effects of the law that Member for Ipswich (Tom Hunt) on securing the debate. was brought in on the microchipping of dogs. Their I also congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for points are well are well made—I will pass them on, but Stroud (Siobhan Baillie), who cannot be with us today—I they will have been heard today and I am happy to know she has worked hard in this area—and all the follow that up specifically. campaigners who have worked so hard to bring us to Earlier this year, there was a call for evidence on where we are today. We should all recognise that there is whether to bring in compulsory microchipping for cats. a lot of heartbreak behind the debate, in addition to the The responses to that call for evidence were overwhelmingly happy memories that we have with our animals. in favour of doing so. We will be publishing a summary The Government understand how important pets are of responses shortly, and I anticipate that we will consult to the families who care for them, and we understand on the issue very soon. that this has nothing to do with their monetary values. I Moving on to pet theft, it is already an offence under am the carer—I never say “owner”—of Midnight, who the Theft Act 1968 and significant penalties are already did not have an unbeatable start in life round the back possible; the difficulty is that, as so many hon. Members of the local chicken factory. He was a feral stray, and he across the House have said, those penalties are not and his brother fit on my palm when they arrived. I am always used to the maximum. As we have heard, the proud to say that he became the purr-minister several maximum penalty is up to seven years’ imprisonment, years ago; indeed, he is campaigning at the moment for which could go even higher if the theft occurred, as his re-election. It is clear that Midnight has no monetary sadly they sometimes do, as part of an aggravated value whatever, but his value to me, my husband and my burglary or robbery. One difficulty is that we have children is priceless. limited data available to us about exactly what is happening We have heard in the debate about a number of on the ground. animals who are just like Midnight. We have heard about Trigger,Milly and Louis, Ruby and Beetle, Cromwell Jim Shannon: One thing that has been touched on and Bertie, Fred, Archie, Clemmie, Poppy and Ebony, and that I am aware of is puppy smuggling and the Winston, Cleo, Rossy and many more. Of course these transfer of dogs between Scotland, Wales, Ireland and animals are precious to their owners, as all our animals Northern Ireland, because it is quite clear that trafficking are. It is a horrible thing when an animal goes missing, goes on there. The police have stopped some vehicles at but it is particularly unpleasant if the owner thinks that the port of Stranraer and have caught people with the animal is still alive and suffering somewhere. them. Has there been any contact with the Republic of Before I set out the Government’s position on pet Ireland? We need to have that regionally as well. theft, I will first set out a few high-level points on the Government’s position on animal welfare. Last December, Victoria Prentis: The hon. Gentleman makes an we stood on a particularly strong manifesto for animal important point, which is that very often pet theft is welfare, which included commitments to introduce tougher carried out by criminal gangs, who use every opportunity sentences for animal cruelty, to crack down on the to evade justice. illegal smuggling of dogs and puppies, to bring in new If someone causes an animal to suffer in the course of laws on animal sentience, to end excessively long journeys stealing it from its owner, we have recourse to the for slaughter and fattening, to ban the keeping of primates Animal Welfare Act 2006, and we very much hope we as pets, and to introduce cat microchipping, which is an will have stronger sentencing powers under that Act issue that I campaigned on as a member of the all-party shortly, if we are able to move forward with the private parliamentary group for cats—which, obviously,Midnight Member’s Bill. Sentencing, of course, remains a matter made me join. Those measures will build on what has for the courts, and when deciding what sentence already been achieved. I heard what the hon. Member to impose the courts should take into account the 275WH Pet Theft 19 OCTOBER 2020 Pet Theft 276WH

[Victoria Prentis] are very slim, and if I am caught, that chap over there who did it got a slap on the wrist and a couple of circumstances of the offence and any mitigating and hundred quid fine.” If, however, they see the person aggravating factors, in line with the guidelines issued by down the road who did it end up in prison for two or the Sentencing Council. three years, that will act as a basic deterrent. In 2016, the Sentencing Council updated its guidelines Why now? On the face of it, it might be tempting, in relation to sentencing for theft, and DEFRA fed into with covid-19, Brexit and everything else going on, to that review. The new guidelines set out that emotional question whether this is really a priority. It absolutely is. distress and non-monetary value are factors to be taken As has been stated by virtually every Member present, into consideration when passing sentence, so the impact our pets have never come to the forefront more than on the victim is now very much something that a court right now. Something else that is cropping up on the can and should take into account. I know that the Lord agenda is mental health. It was cropping up even before Chancellor met my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich covid, but right now—partly because every single person to discuss this very issue only last week. I welcome the in the country has had their mental health affected to engagement that has come about as a result of these some degree by this crisis—we are talking about mental petitions and this debate, and I look forward to playing health more than ever before. Our pets and our animals my own part in that discussion. are crucial to our mental health support. Losing them— We do not currently think that the creation of a having them ripped away from us in the way that has specific offence for pet theft, with a two-year custodial been described in so many powerful stories—is incredibly penalty, would really help much. We think the way to go traumatic and harrowing. Taking action in this place to is to continue the discussions that I know my hon. address that is incredibly important. Friend is already undertaking on sentencing guidelines. As the Minister said, while I was in lockdown I had a To that end, the Government are very willing to work virtual meeting with my right hon. and learned Friend with interested parties, including the police and animal the Lord Chancellor, which was positive. I also point welfare organisations. We are keen to act in this area, out that those behind the petitions, with whom I have and I look forward to taking that forward with Members had close engagement, are pragmatic. They have an from across the House. ideal outcome, but they can still see how getting change in the guidelines would be a major step forward and 5.50 pm something to build on. Tom Hunt: It is a pleasure to serve under your We are a nation of pet lovers. We mentioned dogs and chairmanship, Mr Robertson. I thank everyone for cats, but there is also potential for other animals. Parrots attending. I think there is cross-party consensus, which can be stolen, as can budgies and potentially guinea might not be the case for the next debate that I lead, pigs—I do not know. We could go on and on, but which is straight after this one, but I am glad of it ultimately those discussions need to continue. I plan to anyway. I forgot to say that I do not currently own a pet, continue to work with the Ministry of Justice and with because my lifestyle does not really allow it, but I used colleagues, who will hopefully grow in number. I hope to be another springer spaniel owner. I used to own an that more and more Members become interested and out-of-control springer called Lucy, who sometimes want to retain that interest going forward. This is an would just run off and spring into the golf course. easy thing that the Government can do to show that Sometimes I wished she would not come back, but she they are on the side of the public. We have cross-party always did. She always knew where to come back to, consensus, so let us have some action. and I loved her dearly. Question put and agreed to. There is a sense that the law as it stands is not Resolved, working. There are lots of different options and pathways That this House has considered e-petitions 244530 and 300071 to change that, and one way or another we need to do relating to pet theft. that. Dog theft is, as Dr Allen says, low risk and high reward. The price of puppies has gone up. Thieves 5.54 pm think, “I may as well do it. The chances of being caught Sitting suspended. 277WH 19 OCTOBER 2020 Immigration 278WH

Immigration without borders, we do not have a country and that while we should welcome the world’s best and brightest and those genuinely seeking refuge, who want to come [Sir David Amess in the Chair] here legally, our hospitality must not be taken for granted. 6 pm Perhaps the most important word in the petition, Sir David Amess (in the Chair): As this is only the though, is the word “action”. The public’s patience is third week since we have resumed our sittings in Westminster hanging by a thread, and we have reached the point Hall, I remind hon. Members of the new procedures. where words will no longer suffice. Today, I want to We now have call lists, and we have just one withdrawal underline how action is urgently needed in two key from that list, so there are nine people in total wishing areas if we are to mend the public’s broken trust in the to speak. We have been asked to tell colleagues to please integrity of our borders. The first is stemming the flow sanitise the microphones before they leave, as it saves of people entering this country illegally, and the second the staff getting involved with that. Only Members on is ending the abuse of our broken asylum system. the call list can speak, and Members are not expected to I will start with the issue of illegal entry and the stay for winding-up speeches, but if they could stay for unprecedented number of illegal migrants we have seen two speeches after they have spoken, that would be crossing the channel this year. So far in 2020, more than helpful. 7,000 people have entered our country that way, which is more than five times the number who arrived via that 6.1 pm route in 2019. It has been particularly difficult in recent Tom Hunt (Ipswich) (Con): I beg to move, months for the law-abiding majority in the UK to see these boats flouting our laws with near impunity on That this House has considered e-petition 321862 relating to immigration. almost a daily basis when we are being asked to follow some of the greatest restrictions on our freedoms that It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for this country has ever had to impose. the second time today, Sir David. I want to start by paying tribute to the more than 125,000 people—including The images we have seen on our TV screens of these 202 from my constituency—who signed the petition to illegal boats arriving at our shores are a stark reminder stop illegal immigration and secured this important that, more than four years on from the 2016 Brexit vote, debate in Parliament. I am glad to be able to introduce we still have not taken back control of our borders in a this petition to Parliament as a member of the Petitions meaningful sense. The only way to prevent these illegal Committee. Well over four years ago, more people crossings is by sending a clear message to everyone voted to take back control of our money, our laws and, thinking of coming here illegally that all attempts will crucially, our borders than voted for anything in the be futile. We must look at what the Australians did with history of this country. This petition is another powerful Operation Sovereign Borders, where they blocked all democratic reminder of our responsibility to deliver boats from landing in Australia. After the policy was borders in which the people in this country can have introduced, the number of people trying to enter Australia confidence. illegally by boat dropped from over 2,600 a month to just over 200. Before I get into the petition’s substance, I want to head off arguments often made on the left that seek to We must be prepared to deploy similar safe-return stifle meaningful debate such as this on illegal immigration. tactics. I welcome the fact that the Government are Contrary to what they may say, wanting to have a fair looking at a range of options, including learning from system of rules to govern who enters our country is not the Australian approach. The shadow Home Secretary, about being anti-immigrant or anti-refugee. The vast the hon. Member for Torfaen (Nick Thomas-Symonds), majority of my constituents who write to me about the has said that that approach lacks compassion. I would issue are not anti-immigrant and they are not racist. like to hear today from the hon. Member for St Helens Like me, they are immensely proud to be part of the North (Conor McGinn) exactly how the status quo is diverse town of Ipswich, which has benefited enormously compassionate when it fuels the evil trafficking of human from immigration and shown its spirit of generosity to beings and dangerous sea crossings that we currently some of the most needy refugees coming directly from see. What exactly is Labour’s position on this matter, war-torn countries. Last month, I visited the Suffolk and what would it do? refugee centre in Ipswich to hear some of those people’s It is good that the Government are working with the stories, including from people who have become successful French to prevent these crossings, but we must be clear entrepreneurs in our town. that our ability to protect our borders should not be Our asylum system should be based on compassion, contingent on the French or any other third country but for that to work, it must also be based on rules that being willing to play ball. We must have the capacity to people can have trust in. That is the thrust of the act in our own national interest, and after the EU petition, along with a poll by YouGov in August, which transition period has ended we must extricate ourselves found that 73% consider illegal channel crossings to be from all EU and international rules that prevent us a serious issue. I know from talking to people in my from towing these boats all the way back to France, if constituency and elsewhere that the overwhelming mood necessary. among the public is one of frustration at the lawlessness Sending out the message that illegally crossing the we so often see in our seas. Added to that is the vexation channel just will not work is also a humanitarian necessity. that a great country such as ours, which has voted to When the leadership of the Labour party and others in take back its sovereignty, seems to have its hands tied the liberal left establishment are content to turn a blind when it comes to controlling who comes into our island eye to crossings, it plays into the hands of the ruthless home and removing people who are here illegally. The people smugglers who exploit these vulnerable migrants, vast majority of people in this country know that, often taking their money only to push them out to sea 279WH Immigration 19 OCTOBER 2020 Immigration 280WH

[Tom Hunt] To the public, it is unjustifiable that if they break the law, they will be punished, but if someone breaks our in unseaworthy boats and without lifejackets but with immigration rules, they stand a chance of being rewarded instructions to threaten to throw themselves overboard by getting to stay here. Tackling that is an essential part to prevent them from being picked up by the French of building an ever more compassionate asylum system. authorities. Ideally, all asylum claims would be processed in centres The tragic case of a 16-year-old Sudanese boy who that are outside the UK and close to the most needy. It washed up on a French beach in August, having drowned is completely unfair to those who want to come here while trying to reach the UK, should never have been legally and directly from war-torn countries—it is also allowed to happen. I understand that another death unfair to the taxpayers who fund our asylum system—if may have happened this weekend in the channel. Those economic migrants from safe countries such as France who refuse to act to stop these crossings or who even can jump the queue ahead of them. encourage them out of an ideological attachment to There is an important debate to be had about whether open borders are putting the people they claim to want the country can accept more asylum seekers legally, but to help in immense danger. By way of contrast, in the that is an entirely separate debate and one that will be five years before Australia implemented its zero-tolerance difficult to have until members of the public have confidence approach to illegal boats in 2013, 877 migrants drowned that our laws are being followed consistently. What the trying to make the journey. Since then, I understand public will not accept is the notion pushed by some on that none has. the left that because, in their eyes, we do not take enough refugees legally, we are somehow deserving of Let us move on to our asylum system. Coupled with illegal attempts to breach our borders. stopping illegal entry, we must also diminish the pull factors that cause migrants to attempt these dangerous I know that the Home Secretary appreciates the crossings in the first place. At the heart of that must be urgency of this issue. I recognise the need for a robust overhauling our broken asylum system, as these migrants dual approach to tackle illegal entry and our broken know that, if they can reach our shores and claim asylum system, if we are to get a grip on illegal immigration. asylum, the overwhelming chances are that they will be That is the only approach that delivers for the millions able to stay for good. Of about 9,000 people who have of people who voted in the 2016 referendum, and that is crossed the channel illegally since the start of 2019, less both fair to the law-abiding people in this country and than 3% have been returned, despite about 80% of compassionate towards those who need our help the those this year being found to have no credible asylum most. claim here in the UK. However, I ask the Minister to be completely clear As my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has with the public that we will not leave the job almost rightly pointed out, the exploitation of our asylum done. Everyone who breaks our laws to come here must system is abetted by certain liberal sections of our legal be removed, and we must take matters into our own establishment who exploit our human rights law and hands when it comes to acting with autonomy in the submit multiple bogus claims on behalf of migrants English channel to protect our sovereignty. This is a test who have already had their claims rejected to stop of the country’s political will, and I trust that the deportations. The spectacle we saw earlier this month Minister will ensure that we seize all opportunities to when 29 out of 30 failed asylum seekers were taken off take back control and ensure that our country is no a deportation flight at the last moment following the longer a passive actor. intervention of human rights lawyers is a clear Over the past few months, I have received significant demonstration of how the law as it stands is not on the amounts of correspondence on this issue, and I am sure side of the people it is meant to serve. that all right hon. and hon. Members are in the same position. There is a desire for us to be pro-immigration My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has her for people who want to contribute and integrate, and finger on the pulse, especially compared to the Labour for us to have a rules-based process that is driven by party, which last year voted at its party conference to compassion for those who are most needy and vulnerable. make the problem much more difficult by closing all However, most of those who have written to me do not immigration detention centres. By contrast, the actions want a situation that looks like lawlessness, in which the Government have set out in their response to the people can jump the queue. We need a rules-based petition, including withdrawing from the Dublin regulation system that has compassion at its heart, but we need to and the EU’s common asylum system at the end of the deal with illegal immigration as a matter of absolute transition period, will help us end the situation where priority. the UK takes three times as many asylum seekers from the whole of the EU as we send back. However, I urge the Minister to go further today than 6.13 pm the Home Office’s written response to this petition, Imran Ahmad Khan (Wakefield) (Con): It is a great which says that pleasure, Sir David, to serve under your chairmanship “if a migrant has chosen to evade immigration control or enter for the first time. the UK illegally, then they can have no expectation of remaining It is difficult to believe that almost a year ago, the in the absence of a genuine claim for UK protection”. Conservative party was elected by the British people The expectation should be that anyone who has deliberately with a mighty majority and a clear mandate to deliver chosen to enter this country through an illegal route— on our promises: to get Brexit done; to provide world-class those who do so have often travelled through many safe public services while exercising sound fiscal management; European countries to get here—should have no expectation and, crucially,to reform our immigration policy to emulate that they will be able to stay. the system that is successfully employed by Australia. 281WH Immigration 19 OCTOBER 2020 Immigration 282WH

Sadly, over the summer months hundreds of illegal In common with you, I suspect, Sir David, and all or immigrants have crossed the English channel from France most of those who are in the Chamber, first and foremost to our shores. This year, a record 7,200 migrants have in my thoughts is compassion for those who are in need; reached UK shores in small boats, compared with around for those who have had to flee their homes because of 1,850 last year. In September alone, 1,954 made it persecution; and for those who, as a result of violence, across the English channel. I read in the newspapers have lost loved ones, homes or property and had their only two days ago that a French navy warship escorted jobs and opportunities destroyed. I believe we have a a boat full of migrants across the channel. moral obligation to help those who are in need and Those who land on British soil, as well as those who those who have had their lives torn apart by persecution, labour in the grey economy, are sent to hotels and other through no fault of their own. accommodation across the country, such as the Cedar I am chair of the all-party group on international Court Hotel and the Hotel St Pierre in Wakefield. Such freedom of religion or belief, in which I have a deep luxury establishments are being used, at great expense, interest, as do many others in the Chamber. When I to house those who are awaiting their asylum determination. came to the House in 2010, I had hoped that we could However, I take heart from the fact that the Home consider the subject regularly on the Floor of the Secretary has taken a strong line against illegal crossings House, and we have been successful in that endeavour. to the UK. Firmer action in our territorial waters, We have also been successful in getting the Government through our work with the French border forces and to respond, to understand the issues and to bring into through our legal system, will be critical to achieving play many things to help Christians and other persecuted that objective. groups across the world. As chair of the all-party The Labour party chooses to attack the Home Secretary group, I speak out for Christians and those of other for her laudable decision to stand steadfast against religions. Indeed, I speak out for those with no religion. illegal immigration. However,rewarding those who illegally The Minister, who has been at the forefront in a previous cross with automatic residency is false compassion. It job, has a deep interest in the matter as well. undermines our national security and not only encourages I am the strongest advocate for the retention of others to follow suit, but supports the beastly trade in international aid to help those who need our help, and I humans, which is certainly something we should never believe that that aid should be delivered through projects encourage. I do not wish for the drawbridge to be raised on the ground. The Government have never abdicated and for the United Kingdom to be isolated from the rest their responsibility for doing just that. Although we of the world, but I feel it is nigh time for economic might have concerns over the amalgamation of the migration to be disaggregated from the claims of those Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Department who seek genuine asylum. The two have become for International Development, the Government have dangerously conflated in the public consciousness. said that they will commit to spending 0.7% of GDP so Diversity and tolerance of one another, regardless of that we can help people in other countries. I hope that creed or colour, is one of our characteristic principles. future Government policy will reflect that; that is the My ancestors are testament to that principle. My late person that I am, Sir David. This House has a massive father, who was born in the North-West Frontier of role to play in supporting individuals affected by British India, in what is now Pakistan, travelled to the persecution, and in effecting change to prevent persecution. United Kingdom to study at University College London I spoke to Naomi, who works on preparing my and the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine. speeches. She is a very busy girl, and we try to keep her He served his entire life, until his dying day, as a active. She and I are in the same boat on these things. I consultant dermatologist, serving and tending to the am reminded that, along with the Government, the people of Wakefield, who I am proud to represent. My Northern Ireland Assembly and local community groups, family have suffered terrible persecution, with many we settled six Syrian families in Newtownards. It was a being killed and tortured in Muslim-majority countries, very humbling experience to meet people who have had because they are from a peace-loving community that is to flee their homes and could not return, even though repugnant to the peddlers of hate and extremism— they wanted to, because their houses and property were Ahmadis. Many of them have sought refuge and forged no longer there, their families had been decimated and purposeful lives in our country. That is something we many of their loved ones had been killed. should be proud of. Those six families came to live in Newtownards. The Conservatives want to ensure that our immigration Some had a rudimentary grasp of the English language system is remade to attract the brightest and best to and others did not, but the community came together. enter the United Kingdom legally to live and work, What a joy it was to have the Housing Executive working regardless of their country of origin. It is our moral to get them a house, the Department for Work and duty to ensure that the United Kingdom prevents people Pensions working to see how we could help them with from illegally entering our country and taking advantage finance, and all the church and community groups of us and our people. If we do not, the state of our coming together to provide them with furniture, food community relations will only go one way—a deep and and so on. That strong relationship is still there, with painful downward trajectory. For all these reasons, we the whole community—the Government centrally and must tackle the menace of illegal immigration with zero locally, and those in the community—working together tolerance for illegal claims. to help them. Those six families are starting to integrate in the town of Newtownards. It is a joy to be able to 6.18 pm reach out and help, in a small way, those who have Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): It is a pleasure to nobody else to help them. serve under your chairmanship for the second time this I am a practical person who understands that we have afternoon, Sir David, even if the first occasion was only a duty of care to our own citizens in this country, which for a short time. I am pleased to take part in the debate. precedes any other obligation. Although we must help 283WH Immigration 19 OCTOBER 2020 Immigration 284WH

[Jim Shannon] “There are a number of legal routes for migration. Denying the use of dangerous routes from safe third countries does not deny those who need help, we need to do so in tandem people the right to seek asylum in those countries.” with meeting the needs of our own communities. The I welcome that because I want to see the Government resettlement of those families happened only because reaching out and trying to help. The Government have the communities wanted it to happen, and it was important said: that we all came together. It is a difficult balance, but I “We are clear that if a migrant has chosen to evade immigration sincerely believe that we can find the balance and help control or enter the UK illegally, then they can have no expectation individuals while effecting the global change that we all of remaining in the absence of a genuine claim for UK protection”. want to see. The hon. Member for Glasgow South West However, if it can be proven that an immigrant has (Chris Stephens), who is my friend, speaks for the experienced, as many of those I represent have, some of Scottish National party. We have spoken together in the worst violent, cruel and surgical persecution, mentally, many debates, and we understand the need for the physically and socially, in a way that makes my heart Government to work hard to make things happen. reach out to them—in many cases, such as the ones I have been involved with, it has been proven, and I I read the Government’s response to the petition and welcome that—then the immigrant does deserve to have was pleased to see that the French have managed—I use their genuine claim for UK protection. these words very carefully—to stop 300 dangerous crossings taking place. Why is it dangerous? Because people die However, the current operation of the Human Rights on those crossings. A man was recently found on a Act 1998, the EU’s common European asylum system beach; I am not sure whether it was found out who he and, in particular, the Dublin regulation make that a was, but the police were of the opinion that he had cumbersome and lengthy process. There are cases that I drowned on his way over here. I must highlight the fact have been pursuing for people for over four or even five that 300 is only half the total; the other 50% were not years. At the end of the transition period in January successfully stopped. I use words carefully, ever mindful 2021, however, we will be free of the Dublin regulation of where I am coming from. As a father, my heart goes and the common asylum system, and we will be able to out to those who are so desperate for a different life that negotiate new return agreements on our own terms. they feel they have no option other than to cross in such Again, we look forward to having some control over a dangerous way. When we see the rubber rafts and wee what we do and how we can help people in far-off dinghies that are used to bring people over, we can countries. understand the extent of the danger. The Government response continues: Having met some of the Syrian Christian refugees in “Asylum seekers entering from safe countries will remain a Newtownards and heard their stories, I am pleased to priority for removal, along with foreign national prisoners and those whose removal is justified on grounds of public policy, be able to be involved in a small way, as everybody did public security or public health.” their part. It is like being part of a big engine, with many cogs; I am just a small cog in the wheel, but all the I am not one to report on everything I read in the other cogs come together to make it all happen. It is papers, but some of us in this room can remember the clear that we must do something to be compassionate, person who was guilty of a criminal offence and put on but we must also ensure that those who claim asylum do a plane to be deported, but the passengers on the plane so in a safe and suitable way, and that we have somewhere spoke up and the person had to be removed. I think it for that family to go and a hope for their future. may have been in the press again last week. Two years later, it is time for that person, who did not do the right In my 10 short years in this House—I am not like thing by committing a criminal offence and taking you, Sir David; I think you have been in this House advantage of this country’s good policies, to leave. forever—we have been able to help many people with I look forward to understanding how we can be their immigration issues. I want to put on record that I compassionate and caring within a legal system that have always found Ministers immensely helpful. The enables people who have no place to go due to Minister wants to help us find a solution to our problems. persecution—those for whom I speak and whose letters It is important that we find a way to make that I read every week—to come here and be a living, happen. I believe there are several ways to achieve that. working part of our wonderful, diverse community in I have contacted the Home Office a number of times, this great United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern asking for us to show compassion to immigrants who Ireland. As I often say: better together. have made it to our shore and to help them as much as I look to the Minister to get the answer that we need. we can. We must be aware that the dangerous crossing I have every confidence that we will be working in a way must be avoided at all costs, because it is just that that allows us to look after those people who come to us dangerous. with their asylum needs and that we can reach out and make this a country that invites people here, but we As we move into winter, the press say—I do not know need regulation to ensure that those who come are if they are right—that we will get 15 or 20 days of the deserving of that right. worst weather that we have had at this time of year for a long time. We must have a system in place that allows for application from safety in France and other nations, 6.31 pm and we must ensure that those who come here do so legally and with a plan in mind, so that we can help Nick Fletcher (Don Valley) (Con): I am pleased that them to find a job, a house and a community that wants this debate is taking place, especially as illegal immigration to welcome them in. is an issue of particular concern to my constituents. The petition was signed by more than 270 individuals in I agree with the Government statement: Don Valley. Equally, dozens of constituents emailed me 285WH Immigration 19 OCTOBER 2020 Immigration 286WH about the illegal channel crossings over the summer That is extremely important, expressly because two months. They were angry about what they saw, especially months ago a Home Office charter flight with 23 illegal as many had believed that our departure from the immigrants was grounded at the very last minute by European Union would lead us to have more, not less, human rights lawyers. This has nothing to do with control of our borders. fairness and is merely a form of left-wing activism. If I know that some individuals, and even some right we are to restore people’s trust in our immigration hon. and hon. Members, will claim that the petition has system, that must come to an end. anti-immigration undertones and is even racist, yet I We therefore need to quicken the process of returning could not disagree more. I believe that immigrants have false asylum claimants while also ensuring that those played a crucial role in our nation’s history and continue with genuine claims are not trapped in an endless cycle to contribute massively to our economy and innovation. of bureaucracy. That would better deter people from Moreover, I am sure that the vast majority of people in making illegal crossings, while genuinely helping those Don Valley, and those who have signed the petition, who need our protection. That is what the signatories would share a similar view. However, it is also my view to the petition want, and I support them. The Home that the majority of people would agree that it is Secretary has promised a complete overhaul in this essential that people come to our country in a manner area, which I know the people of Dom Valley will that is legal and fair. For that reason, the Government welcome enormously. I can only urge other Members to should do whatever is necessary to deter illegal immigration listen to the concerns of the British people and, as the humanely. After all, we should remember that one of Home Secretary said, make our asylum system “firm the main reasons that people from around the world but fair”. have come to our shores is that this country has a long-held sense of fairness, which is undoubtedly a British value. Yet what is not fair is for individuals to 6.36 pm jump the queue, bypass those who are legitimately Jacob Young (Redcar) (Con): It is a pleasure to serve seeking asylum and land on our shores uninvited. under your chairmanship, Sir David. I thank my hon. Although I cannot stress how much I sympathise Friend the Member for Ipswich (Tom Hunt) for presenting with individuals who are fleeing terrible circumstances, the debate on what is a pressing issue, as underlined by those crossing the channel in small boats were doing so the significant support for the petition. from a safe country: France. There is no reason why Many from my own constituency of Redcar and they could not have sought asylum there, unless of Cleveland are concerned by the daily arrival of boats on course their primary concern was not to flee war, but to our shores bringing more and more illegal immigrants come here for economic reasons. That is unfair not only to this country via an unsafe and unlawful route. When to legitimate refugees, but to the British people, who for I raised the issue in my local newspapers and local too long have felt that we have no control over who we media, I was lambasted by local Labour politicians for are letting into the country.The figures speak for themselves commenting on issues 300 miles from the sandy shores and they do not reflect well on us as politicians. Polling of Redcar and Marske. However, the fact that 311 of from September last year revealed that a mere 13% of my constituents have signed this petition—more than the public trust MPs to tell the truth on immigration. It anyone else speaking in this debate—shows the strength is therefore important that we listen properly to the of feeling. It was the No. 1 issue in my inbox over the concerns of the people we represent, rather than write summer, so I will not take any lectures from the Labour off such concerns. party—particularly given that its Members have not I welcome the Government’s work with their French even attended this debate—for speaking up for my counterparts to deter the crossings. The individuals constituents. Perhaps their silence on the issue is the who traffic people across the channel are vicious criminals reason why Redcar elected its first ever Tory MP in who do not care about the lives of those they are December. transporting. We should all welcome the Government’s The safest, most humane and most compassionate commitment to work with the European authorities thing we can do for any person wanting to cross the and to pursue those who are engaged in this practice. channel illegally is to stop them getting in the boat. It Another pressing challenge for the Government is to cannot be right that vulnerable people are charged return individuals to the safe countries in which they thousands of pounds to be loaded, without lifejackets resided before coming illegally to the UK. Now that we and with 40 others, into a dinghy meant for 20 people, have left the European Union, we should seize the and then pushed into the open sea in the hope that they opportunity to reaffirm a British sense of fairness to will reach Britain. Two people have died this year attempting our immigration and asylum system. Article 3 of the these crossings, and it is thanks to our coastguard, European convention on human rights can be used by lifeboats, the Royal Navy and UK Border Force that some lawyers to stop the British Government sending many more have not faced the same fate. Despite our back foreign criminals and people who are not eligible best efforts to make the route unviable—I commend the for asylum. As right hon. and hon. Members know, the actions of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary interpretation of whether an individual will be subject and the Minister, who has graciously spoken with me to inhuman or degrading treatment if they are removed about this issue a number of times—these arrivals have from the UK is judged on a case-by-case basis. I am rapidly increased, with more than 7,000 this year. Urgent pleased to have read that the Government will therefore measures are needed to stop the flow. I also pay tribute better define what is meant by inhuman or degrading to my hon. Friend the Member for Dover (Natalie treatment, so that the boundaries of what that means Elphicke), who could not be here today, but who has cannot be stretched to such an extent that the terms worked incredibly hard alongside the Home Office. I become meaningless. commend her for that. 287WH Immigration 19 OCTOBER 2020 Immigration 288WH

[Jacob Young] apart from his final paragraph, but I have to say that that is where the consensus ends in this debate—and it It is not acceptable for it to be so easy for criminal is a debate. I certainly was struck by the fact that a gangs to profit from other people’s desperation and number of contributions talked about illegal immigration, prevent those genuinely fleeing persecution from finding but not one Member actually articulated what that safe refuge.Our asylum system is clogged and overwhelmed means and gave their definition of illegal immigration, with requests. While applicants wait for an outcome, we so let us move on to the facts, rather than the rhetoric. should bear in mind that, regardless of the legitimacy of The facts are these. The number of people claiming their claim, they are, rightly, housed and fed—but at the asylum substantially reduced in 2020. This year, there expense of the taxpayer. has been a 40% drop, according to the Government’s No one is arguing that legitimate and genuine asylum own statistics. It is the route that has changed. It is seekers should not be able to find safe refuge in the UK. because other routes are no longer available that there We are a country with a proud record of providing are the crossings that we are discussing. asylum to those seeking safety from war zones and It is not illegal to enter the UK for the purpose of persecution. But right now we are simply failing to do making an asylum claim, and the most recent evidence so. Our asylum system has been hijacked by individuals set out by the Home Office’s clandestine channel threat who deliberately intend to abuse our generosity. This commander suggests that 100% of the people crossing needs to end. It is unacceptable to genuine asylum the English channel in small boats are doing so to claim seekers and to our constituents, including mine in Redcar asylum. That was clear evidence that was given by the and Cleveland, who are paying their taxes and seeing commander to the Home Affairs Committee. They are that squandered on false asylum claims. People who are doing so to seek international protection. None is trying genuinely seeking a safe refuge could and should claim to enter the country unobserved or for criminal reasons. asylum in the first country they reach. Before crossing That was the evidence that was presented. And as I said, the channel, many will have already registered as an there has been a 40% drop, according to the immigration asylum seeker in another EU country and will travel statistics published in August of this year, and that is through France and various other countries to get to compared with the last quarter of 2019. our shores. I believe that the route will continually be abused until we make it unviable for those who seek to Jacob Young: I accept the hon. Gentleman’s argument abuse it. that the route has changed—it has indeed—but does he To that end, I believe that our approach should be not see that the route is now much more unsafe? Any twofold. First, we need properly to resource the National other route by which an asylum claim can be made Crime Agency, UK Border Force and the police to root is intrinsically safer than going out to sea in a dinghy out the people smugglers and organised crime gangs that is not meant for the number of people whom it is that perpetuate this form of illegal immigration. Secondly, carrying. we should adopt an Australian-style approach to illegal immigration, whereby we intercept a vessel, ensure the Chris Stephens: The UK Government have a safety of its passengers and then return it to the shores responsibility to provide safe legal routes for people from which it left. Only by doing that will we prove to claiming asylum. I will come to that later in my contribution. those seeking to cross to the UK that the route is What is the legal position for people seeking asylum unviable and, in turn, starve the people smugglers of in the UK after arriving from France? Those arriving in their funds from that abusive practice. the UK and making a claim for asylum are subject to I know that many organisations are already doing an international refugee law, and their rights are not affected incredible job in cracking down on the criminal gangs— by the mode of arrival or means of entry. The UK is a those organisation are working alongside the French signatory to the 1951 convention relating to the status authorities—and I welcome the arrests that the Minister of refugees and the 1967 protocol. has previously announced from the Dispatch Box. But How does the legal system intervene to help people may I urge Ministers to go further and do everything who are being removed? I was staggered to hear that the they can to ensure that the French authorities are legal profession in the UK has been overrun by these stopping people attempting to make the crossing in the Trotskyite and Marxist lawyers who are stopping people first place? May I also urge them to push for joint being deported. What absolute, utter nonsense. That is operations to intercept boats at sea and ensure that they certainly not the case. I will explain, for those watching are returned safely? this debate, how the legal system actually stops people We must take this problem seriously and ensure that being removed, because the claim that the legal system anyone who breaks the law faces the full consequence, sometimes unfairly prevents people from being removed or we risk failing those who genuinely need our help. I is nonsense and misrepresents how our asylum and want to finish as I started, by saying that the safest, human rights law functions and its purpose most humane and most compassionate thing that we There are established processes for the removal of can do for any person wanting to cross the channel people in certain circumstances where their asylum illegally is to stop them getting in the boat. claim has been fully heard by the UK or should be held elsewhere. I have no problem with that. I have seen 6.42 pm individuals come to my office who have had to be deported because of the way in which they went through Chris Stephens (Glasgow South West) (SNP): It is the system. Some of that included criminal activity. I always a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Sir David. I have no problem with that at all. However, removals are very much enjoyed the speech by the hon. Member for stopped for a wide range of reasons, such as on health Strangford (Jim Shannon) and I agreed with most of it, grounds, concerns about trafficking, or appeals relating 289WH Immigration 19 OCTOBER 2020 Immigration 290WH to protecting the rights of individuals. Where those to work. I hope the hon. Member for Wakefield (Imran removals are halted, it is because the Home Office and Ahmad Khan) will seriously consider that in his Bill the Home Secretary are not adhering to the law. and consider that asylum seekers, after a certain period, Removals cannot be prevented by lawyers themselves. should have the right to work so that they can make the We have heard in this debate that it is the lawyers who contribution that he wants them to make. are stopping deportations. That is nonsense. The legal As a party, we believe that the Home Office’s response assistance is provided to ensure that the law is upheld to the recent channel crossings displays a complete and, if necessary, a court of law determines whether a disregard for human suffering that is both shocking and removal is stopped. Such processes have to be undertaken shameful. Responding to the crossings in a dystopian, quickly, as applicants will not usually be given much quasi-militaristic way, with surveillance technology, notice of removal proceedings. That is a fact, as my appointing a clandestine channel threat commander constituency casework shows, given that Glasgow is the and positing the idea of bringing in the Royal Navy—later only place in Scotland that takes on asylum seekers. condemned by the UN Refugee Agency and the International Organisation for Migration—only reinforces Imran Ahmad Khan: The hon. Gentleman says that the headlines that liken that failure of leadership to an Glasgow takes on asylum seekers. He will be fully aware invasion. that, a few years ago, one of my co-religionists was Contrary to the Department’s remarks, the reality is murdered in his shop by somebody of Pakistani origin far from being the crisis the newspapers suggest it is. simply for being an Ahmadi Muslim who wished his The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees’ Christian neighbours a happy Easter. As somebody representative in the UK said recently: who is particularly familiar with the issue of asylum, I also know of abuses of the system and of people who “The UK is far from the epicentre of the real challenge.” genuinely do need safe avenues for asylum. I can tell the Asylum claims in the UK—as I have said, and I will say hon. Gentleman categorically that people can apply for it again—have fallen in 2020, as confirmed by Abi Tierney, asylum in this country through legal mechanisms. Since the director general of UK Visas and Immigration, to the 1980s, the Ahmadi community has banned and the Select Committee on Home Affairs in September. refused people the right of entering this or any other The response to the petition describes channel crossings country through illegal means. That is why we have as “unacceptable behaviour”. The Department seems no— unable to understand—or perhaps fails to mention—that it has already closed and is closing more safe legal Sir David Amess (in the Chair): Order. If that was an routes for refugees to reach the United Kingdom. That intervention, I must say to the hon. Member that it was is leaving extremely vulnerable individuals who are often quite a long intervention and it did not seem to have a fleeing unimaginable conditions, as the hon. Member question to it, so could he come to his point, please? for Strangford rightly pointed out, with little choice but to place their fate in the hands of criminal gangs. Imran Ahmad Khan: Does the hon. Gentleman not Furthermore, a report last year by the Select Committee agree that evidence shows that people abuse the asylum on Foreign Affairs, of which the Home Secretary was a system? Do we not want those who come here to live member at the time, said: and work among us and to become part of the fabric—the “In the absence of robust and accessible legal routes for silver and golden threads—of the national tapestry to seeking asylum in the UK, those with a claim are left with little obey the rules? That is one of the characteristics of our choice but to make dangerous journeys by land and sea.” country, and if we allow those who are coming in to break the rules from the get-go, are they going to fit? The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Chris Philp): In France. Chris Stephens: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his second speech. I must say to him—I will be quick, for Chris Stephens: I assume the Minister is seeking to time purposes—that there is a great Ahmadi community make an intervention, because there was a lot of noise in Glasgow, of which we are very proud. All I can say to there as I was making those remarks. I am happy to give him, based on my experience of dealing with asylum way to him. claims, is that asylum claim abuses are few and far between compared with those seeking genuine asylum. Chris Philp: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for Touching on the hon. Gentleman’s point, I would giving way. He said that migrants are compelled to cross want asylum seekers to be given, after a certain point, the English channel to claim asylum. I respectfully the right to work so that they are embedded in the point out that they are in France, typically northern community. That must be looked at. My hon. Friend France. France is a civilised and safe country with a the Member for Glasgow North (Patrick Grady) has a well-functioning asylum system, and should anyone in private Member’s Bill on that matter, and there must be northern France feel they need to claim asylum, they serious discussion about allowing asylum seekers the are perfectly able to do so there. They do not need to right to work. make one of those dangerous crossings. I am proud to have an office manager who is a refugee, who had family members murdered by Saddam Chris Stephens: That may very well be the Minister’s Hussein’s regime. When she came to this country, her view. He will have an opportunity to say that, and I will father was working. Far from the rhetoric that we heard perhaps make an intervention—[Interruption.] The about the Labour party being left wing, it was the Minister is harrumphing from a sedentary position. I Labour party that took my office manager’s father’s am concerned for his welfare. He seems rather excitable, national insurance from him. The then Labour Government Sir David. Perhaps you can pass him a note and have a changed the law to stop asylum seekers having the right word just to calm him down. Thank you, Sir David. 291WH Immigration 19 OCTOBER 2020 Immigration 292WH

[Chris Stephens] I thank the Petitions Committee for allocating the time for this important debate. I congratulate the hon. The staggering leaked UK Government documents Member for Ipswich (Tom Hunt) on leading it and on only prove that the Tory hostile environment towards his speech. I also congratulate the hon. Members for immigration and immigrants is still alive and kicking. Wakefield (Imran Ahmad Khan), for Don Valley (Nick In response to the petition, the Home Office said: Fletcher) and for Redcar (Jacob Young), because not “The UK has long been a sanctuary for those in need of only did they win their seats but they beat very good international protection”. Labour MPs, who were friends and colleagues of mine Leaked documents provided evidence that the Home and who had worked incredibly hard in those seats. Do Office was considering wave machines to deter boats, not think for a minute that the lessons that the Labour nets to clog boats’ propellers and the transportation of party has to learn on why and how we lost those seats asylum seekers more than 4,000 miles away to Ascension are lost on me, because they are not. Island for processing. Those are preposterous suggestions I rather enjoyed the railing against the Trotskyist, and show how far the Government will go to drive Marxist liberal left, because as I think the Minister will home and engender the Brexit ideology that has already testify, it certainly does not land many punches on me. poisoned some of the political discourse in this country. Having led last week on the Covert Human Intelligence Sources (Criminal Conduct) Bill for the Opposition, it The Refugees Council policy manager, Judith Dennis, certainly lends new ballast to my left-wing credentials said that the UK must treat refugees and asylum seekers that is much in need. All I would say is that some of the with dignity. Instead, those ridiculous proposals set an arguments that were rehearsed felt a little passé, because unsettling precedent, firing the starting gun of a race to the Labour party is very much under new management. the bottom in terms of treating refugees and asylum seekers with any humanity and compassion. As an MP for the north in the seat of St Helens, I very much take the point that my constituents, like those of I believe that the asylum system must be fair and the hon. Gentlemen I congratulated, have concerns compassionate, but it must also be professional. I hope about immigration that are in no way motivated by the Minister answers the question for which I have been racism—quite the opposite. People are concerned about trying to seek debates—unfortunately, I seem to be their jobs, the impact of coronavirus and what they see missing out on the ballots for either Westminster Hall as a lack of Government support and action for the or an Adjournment debate—about why a private company communities that they live in, so I caution them slightly has been called in to process asylum claim interviews in on some of what they said about immigration being the last couple of weeks. In secret, with no statement, “the” priority for people in in the north of England, either written or verbal, provided to hon. Members, a notwithstanding that they will know their constituencies private company has been called in by the Home Office much better than I will, of course. to carry out asylum claim interviews. Moving on to the substantive points raised, there is Is it Serco? It would not surprise us, let us be honest, much that we could talk about, but I want to focus my if it was Serco, a company that has certainly been remarks. We have all witnessed the increase in channel mentioned as carrying out these asylum claim interviews. crossings in small boats over the summer months with What training and expertise does it have to carry them huge concern. I recognise the strength of feeling in the out? It really is, I suggest, quite ludicrous that a private petition and on this issue, and I know that seeing those company, be it Serco or any other, is being asked to boats for many people represents a breakdown in the carry out a quasi-legal process, which asylum claim systems that the Government have put in place to interviews should be, under the aegis of a pilot programme. manage migration. I do not think that that is an unjustifiable I hope the Minister will address the concerns that I and view. many Members of the House have on that issue. However, the issues here are complex and require a I am conscious of time, and I want to allow the two considered, compassionate and effective response. It is other Front Benchers to speak. We keep being told that necessary that our words and actions both reflect an the asylum system is broken, yet the Government have understanding of the harrowing and appalling had 10 years—over a decade. Does that mean that they circumstances that have resulted in many individuals have broken the system, and what are they going to do and families taking extreme and desperate decisions, to fix it? I respectfully disagree with those who have and also prevent any further exploitation by criminal signed the petition, and with all due respect to the hon. gangs and traffickers of those facing such impossible and right hon. Members who have spoken, I disagree decisions. We need to ensure that the United Kingdom’s with most of their remarks as well. strategy reflects our values—that we respect the rule of law and address illegality—and ensure that we provide safe and legal routes to those who have a case for 6.56 pm seeking asylum here. I think there has been an inadequacy Conor McGinn (St Helens North) (Lab): It is a pleasure in delivering against some of those values, because what to serve under your chairmanship, Sir David. The hon. we need is calm, compassionate and rational decision- Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) mentioned that making, but I fear instead that we have had rhetoric you have been here forever. I am not sure that that is the over action. case, but I know of your association with the all-party This morning, as I walked my children to school parliamentary group on the Holy See, and your Urbi et before getting on the train to come to Westminster, I Orbi before the recess every year certainly means that thought, “How dire would my circumstances have to be you are a well-known figure in the House. Of course, before I would let my family board an insecure dinghy in that Chair, Sir David, you are infallible in matters across the channel?” Whatever challenges we personally of debate. have faced or that the communities that we proudly 293WH Immigration 19 OCTOBER 2020 Immigration 294WH represent in this place have faced over the last months, We have also had these ludicrous proposals about we might all reasonably conclude that we would have to Ascension Island and Saint Helena—I had to read it be completely without hope before it would even occur twice when I saw it in The Sunday Times, lest it was a to us to do such a thing—a point made very eloquently reference to St Helens. Either would be preposterous, by the hon. Member for Strangford. frankly. That shows a lack of strategy at the heart of However, that is the situation that many of these Government around how we will get a grip of this issue. individuals are in. Over half of refugees globally originate I am fond of the Home Secretary, whom I know well from Syria, Afghanistan or South Sudan—countries and with whom I share interests in horse-racing and that are completely ravaged by violence, chaos and many other things—I am glad that none of my Back-Bench destitution. Those who undertake the crossings understand colleagues are here to hear that—but she should reflect the danger that they face, so the fact that they none the on the divisive rhetoric that she has used. I am not sure less make them shows us how desperate they feel their it does justice to her or ministerial colleagues when she situation is. talks about the traffickers, the do-gooders, lefty lawyers I do not presume to understand all the push and pull and the Labour party as defending the broken system. factors involved as people continue to leave France and To group together lawyers and Labour Members with seek to come to the UK. However, we see the numbers human traffickers is really offensive and insulting. At of those deciding to undertake that journey. Will the first, I thought it was inappropriate and a bit beneath Minister say what efforts are being made to understand the dignity of the office of Home Secretary—one of the those decisions, based on an analysis of the experiences great offices of state—but subsequent events have proven of those who have crossed the channel? It is worth it was quite dangerous. It has led to incidents where remembering that the vast majority of those who flee lawyers have felt their safety threatened. Human rights their homes to reach Europe never reach Calais at all. is not a bad word but something at which this country For example, Germany, France and Italy are all far has been at the cornerstone of, through our role in the more common destinations for migrants than the UK, Council of Europe, the United Nations and other for many reasons. multilateral organisations throughout the world. We In our conversations with those working in asylum need to be careful about mistaking process issues with and immigration, the overwhelming motivation that we ad hominem attacks on individuals. hear time and again for wanting to reach the UK is to The frustrating thing is that, in spite of the rhetoric, be reunited with family who are already in the UK. the Home Office has not even been successful in achieving Another common reason is that the person speaks its commitment to deter these crossings. The closing English but not French and so would likely have more down of other routes to the UK brought about by the success in finding a job and a future in our country than coronavirus pandemic has caused exceptional pressures, they would elsewhere in Europe. The latter is not an but the number of migrants who crossed the channel in impractical consideration, while the former is hugely small boats in August 2020 was more than four times understandable. that of August 2019. It might be worth pointing out to hon. Members who arrived here with great gusto in Jacob Young: Given what the hon. Gentleman is December 2019 that we have had a Conservative saying about language barriers and the like, does he Government, in whole or part, for 10 years, so all the agree that at that point we are no longer discussing an criticisms made about the asylum system are suitably asylum claim and are instead discussing migration and addressed to the Minister rather than the Opposition. the need to move to England as an economic route, as Weneed a practical, even-handed and realistic response. opposed to for safe refuge? Many migrants arriving in Calais have legitimate claims for asylum, but they do not have practical or legal Conor McGinn: There is a lot of conflation and means to reach the UK. The strategy of deterring confusion around the various types of immigration, but crossings from taking place is not working, so we need a once a person has embarked upon a route to claim renewed strategy. I am sure the shadow Home Secretary, asylum, that is the only one open to them, because, as my hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Nick Thomas- the hon. Member for Glasgow South West (Chris Stephens) Symonds), would be happy, as he has offered, to discuss said, other avenues are no longer open. That is why it is the ways in which we can work together to deter crossings important that a claim be processed promptly through a and ensure that the system functions adequately for due legal route. those in need. The strategy must therefore ensure that Also, given the predilection of the hon. Member for legal and pragmatic routes continue to function for Redcar for pointing out Members who are not in this those with legitimate claims for asylum—that due process. debate, I am keen to enable him to get back and join all Back in June, in response to an urgent question on my colleagues who are in the other debate on immigration, asylum, the Minister told the House that last year the on the Floor of the House, lest his absence from it UK made 20,000 grants of protection or asylum. Those should be pointed out. are cases in which, against strict criteria, the Government I have been disappointed by the Government’sresponse. deemed that asylum should be granted in the UK. The Minister knows me well enough to know that I However, we must ensure that those safe and legal make that point sincerely. Some of these issues need to routes do not drive those whom the Government recognise be addressed. The first is the abolition of the Department as having a case to be heard into the arms of human for International Development. Arguably, doing that traffickers, who profiteer on the back of human suffering. removes the support needed to address some of these We must protect the route to allow legitimate attempts issues at their source, and I have not yet heard a valid for those who seek to reunite with family in the UK. reason for why the Government have chosen to merge it That is currently protected in the Dublin regulation, with the Foreign Office. which we will not be part of once we leave the EU. I am 295WH Immigration 19 OCTOBER 2020 Immigration 296WH

[Conor McGinn] small-boats crisis that has unfolded this summer is a sad and appalling example of illegal immigration undermining therefore keen to hear what the Government propose confidence in our system. The Government find it to do, because if we do not do our bit, as per the Dubs completely unacceptable and we are determined to stop scheme and the amendments being considered on the it. We make no apology at all for saying that. Floor of the House tonight, to ensure that unaccompanied Illegal immigration is unacceptable for three reasons: children in dangerous situations are given safe haven, what it is dangerous, illegal and unnecessary.That it is dangerous kind of country can we claim to be? We should be proud is powerfully demonstrated by the tragic death earlier of the role we have played throughout history in providing today, or yesterday, of a man believed to be aged safe refuge, particularly to children who have fled the between 20 and 40, and the sad death a few weeks ago most awful horrors of war, famine and poverty. of a Sudanese gentlemen aged 26. Those sad deaths in As I have said, this is a complex situation that demands the channel demonstrate how dangerous the crossings rational and reasonable solutions. It is a topic that are. We have a moral and a compassionate duty to provokes strong reactions among our constituents. We prevent those crossings. have heard that from Government Members, I have Secondly, these crossings are illegal. The hon. Member heard it in my constituency and many of my Labour for Glasgow South West (Chris Stephens) suggested the party colleagues feel it too. However, I think most contrary, but let me say clearly that it is illegal to enter reasonable people would agree that the current situation, the country without leave under section 24(1)(a) of the whereby migrants are forced to make hazardous trips Immigration Act 1971. The hon. Gentleman referred to across the channel to stand any chance of claiming provisions in article 31 of the refugee convention that asylum, is untenable. That is why, as I hope I have made say an entry to a country for the purposes of claiming clear, Labour is committed to ensuring that we protect asylum should not be a criminalised if someone has and improve the pre-existing legal routes, that we do come “directly” from a dangerous territory. I submit more to meet our international obligations, that we that France is not a dangerous territory, and therefore address illegality and that we command the confidence the prohibition in article 31 of the refugee convention of the British public. 1951, renewed by the 1967 protocol, does not apply.France is not dangerous and these crossings are categorically 7.9 pm illegal. They are not only dangerous and illegal, but unnecessary. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Anyone wishing to claim asylum, or genuinely wishing Home Department (Chris Philp): It is a great pleasure to to seek protection, can do so in one of the safe countries serve, once again, under your chairmanship, Sir David, previously passed through. Clearly, there is France— which is, as the shadow Minister said, always infallible. everybody who crosses on a small boat has been in I thank the shadow Minister for his balanced remarks France—and typically people will have travelled through in summing up. It is fair to say no one would ever accuse other countries, often including Germany, Italy, Spain him of being a Trotskyite, sadly something that one and others. There will have been ample opportunities to cannot say about every Member of his parliamentary claim asylum and protection previously. There may be party. reasons why people might prefer to claim asylum in the I start by congratulating my hon. Friend the Member United Kingdom, such as the language, but those are for Ipswich (Tom Hunt) on securing the debate and not reasons of protection. Those are choices rather presenting it on behalf of more than 100,000 petitioners, than a necessity. We should be clear: these journeys are a majority of whom, we discovered, come from Redcar not necessary for the purpose of securing protection. and Cleveland. My hon. Friend laid out a compelling, I will come to the compassionate and safe routes in a passionate and well-articulated description of why illegal moment. Before I do, let me briefly talk about some of immigration is a huge problem for our country. It the things that we are doing to prevent these dangerous, undermines the rule of law, it undermines legal and safe illegal and unnecessary crossings. We are working with routes, and it renders purposeless the routes that we, as our colleagues in France on developing ever-increasing a Parliament, have developed to decide who comes into tactics to try to prevent the crossings. The French have the country and who does not. All those are undermined. been deploying larger numbers of gendarmes, police My hon. Friend the Member for Wakefield (Imran aux frontiers, brigades mobiles de recherche and others Ahmad Khan) powerfully and passionately pointed out in northern France, and that is yielding fruit. This that immigration can be an enormous force for good, weekend, large numbers of interceptions have been when done within the rule of law. His own family story, made to prevent embarkations. On Saturday, just two which he set out, is a moving and powerful illustration days ago, the French police intercepted 220 people who of the enormous contribution that legal migration can were attempting a crossing. Yesterday, on Sunday, the make to our society, strengthening and contributing to French authorities intercepted 211 people. Only 62 got it, as his father and his whole family have done. Our across, so the French successfully intercepted about country is better, stronger and richer, in every sense, for 70% to 80% of the people who attempted a crossing. I the contribution made by my hon. Friend’s family and pay tribute to them for the law enforcement work that millions like them, who have made their home here they have been doing. legally. We have appointed a clandestine channel threat Illegal migration undermines all of that. It undermines commander to co-ordinate United Kingdom activities— public confidence in the system, it puts immigration in a Dan O’Mahoney, a former Royal Marine, entered his negative rather than positive light, and it makes it much post in August—and we are doing huge amounts of law harder to allow legal immigration if the whole system is enforcement work. Wehave so far this year made 89 arrests undermined. In all honesty, we must admit that the of people who committed offences in that regard, and 297WH Immigration 19 OCTOBER 2020 Immigration 298WH we have disrupted 24 organised immigration crime groups we are also the only European country to meet that that have been facilitating cross-channel traffic. A huge 0.7% of GNI target. So anyone who suggests that the amount of work has been going on, and let me say that United Kingdom is not a generous and welcoming we intend to intensify and increase that activity. We country is clearly not apprised of those facts. intend to legislate next year to tighten up our system, However, with the compassion and fairness for which but the legislation will have two elements to it. It will be this country is famous, and which it will continue to firm, because it will take tough action against illegal demonstrate, comes an obligation to be firm on illegal immigration, but it will also be fair, in the sense that it immigration, for the reasons that my hon. Friends the will provide safe legal routes for genuine refugees. Members for Ipswich, for Wakefield, for Don Valley Let me say a few words about the work that the (Nick Fletcher) and for Redcar (Jacob Young) outlined United Kingdom has done so far on those safe legal so persuasively. I am afraid there is a lot more work to routes. Since 2015, we have run a resettlement programme do, because our system is in many respects broken. It is whereby we have taken people from conflict areas—for possible for people who should not be in this country, example, around Syria—and brought them directly to including dangerous foreign national offenders, to submit the United Kingdom. Rather than seeing people come very late claims that are essentially vexatious, with the from France, Italy or Greece, which are safe European purpose of preventing their removal. I have become countries—that is what the Dubs amendment did, by painfully aware in my six months, so far, as one of the the way—we have gone directly to conflict zones, where two Immigration Ministers, of a number of cases in people are in genuine danger, and brought them here. In which very dangerous foreign national offenders have that five-year period, 25,000 people have been brought repeatedly—five, six or seven times—over a number of directly to the United Kingdom. Over the five years, years, at the last minute before the moment of removal our resettlement programme is larger than any other or deportation, lodged claims that are subsequently European country’s resettlement programme. found by the court to be wholly without merit. None The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) the less they succeeded in frustrating the removal. We raised some points about that. I must say that I agree need to legislate to prevent that kind of abuse, because with him, in the sense that the resettlement programme it brings our system into disrepute. focused, as Members will understand, largely on people My hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich mentioned of Syrian nationality. It did not reflect the pre-conflict a recent flight that was due to return to Spain, as population of Syria, because Christians were severely required by the Dublin regulation—the European Union’s underrepresented. The hon. Member for Strangford own regulation—people who had tried to claim asylum and I led a debate back in July 2019 on the persecution here having claimed asylum there previously, when a that Christians suffer around the world. Indeed, Christians slew of last-minute legal claims,manyof which subsequently are the most persecuted group of any, globally, and I proved to be without merit, caused the flight to be would like to see our future resettlement activity better cancelled. Such abuse of the legal process—and I will reflect the persecution that Christians suffer around the be direct; it is, frankly, abuse—is not something that the world. Government are prepared to countenance any more. We offer many other legal and safe routes. We offer Therefore we shall legislate next year to fix that problem family reunion routes, which I think the hon. Member and other problems. for Glasgow South West referred to. Even as we most Chris Stephens: I want to take the Minister back to likely leave the Dublin regulations in two and half the subject of foreign nationals—particularly the criminal months, the United Kingdom’s immigration rules provide aspect of the matter. He makes a fair point, but does he for the family reunion of children joining their parents agree that it is not the fault of so-called do-gooders and and, where compassionate and compelling circumstances lawyers? Does he agree that the Government need to exist and where the child’s best interest is served, reunion roll back on the rhetoric that we have heard from them with aunts, uncles, grandparents and siblings. That safe against lawyers who represent asylum seekers? and legal family reunion route does exist, can be used and is used. Chris Philp: Lawyers are clearly entitled—indeed, Last year, we received roughly 3,700 applications obliged—to represent their clients to the best of their from unaccompanied asylum-seeking children in this ability, but there have been examples, including what country. We are currently looking after more than 5,000 was reported by The Times last week, of immigration UASCs.Both those numbers are higher than the equivalent lawyers encouraging their clients to make vexatious figures for any other European country, including Greece. claims. In the example reported by The Times last week People talk about the Dubs amendment and bringing the Solicitors Regulation Authority quite properly took UASCs from Italy to the UK, but we already look after disciplinary action against those solicitors. We sometimes more UASCs than either Italy or Greece does. We do it hear lawyers talking about pursuing politics through very well—we look after them extremely well. the courts, and that is not helpful. The shadow Minister mentioned overseas aid. We Of course I accept that barristers, solicitors and other have not abolished overseas aid; we have merged it with representatives are obliged and entitled to represent the Foreign Office so that better co-ordination is possible. their clients to the best of their ability within the law, Since he mentions overseas aid, it is worth putting on but last-minute meritless claims that are designed to record that we are the only G8 country to meet 0.7% of frustrate the process do not help the system at all, and gross national income as spending on overseas aid. That we need to put things on a better legislative footing to amounted last year to some £14 billion. Not only do we prevent the legal abuse that there has been. However, I have the top direct resettlement numbers of any European of course do not dispute, as I have said, the right of country and not only do we welcome more unaccompanied lawyers to represent their clients to the best of their asylum-seeking children than any other European country; ability. Indeed, they are obliged to do so. 299WH Immigration 19 OCTOBER 2020 Immigration 300WH

[Chris Philp] seeker is someone fleeing from an unsafe country. If they are leaving a safe country, by definition, I struggle I do not wish to detain Members longer, given that to see how they are a refugee. I am broadly comfortable the main event is happening on the Floor of the House with the Government’s position. as we speak. Let me reiterate that the Government are I know that the hon. Member for St Helens North determined to protect our borders, determined to end (Conor McGinn) is pretty moderate and balanced. He these dangerous, illegal and unnecessary crossings, and spoke after my maiden speech. He seems like a nice guy. determined to end illegal immigration, but at the same On the point of being under new management, we will time we are determined to ensure that we are fair and see. Ultimately, I think that to deal with this issue compassionate, and that those who genuinely need our effectively the Government will have to take some robust protection around the world receive it. action. Legislation, such as an asylum Bill, will come through this House, and it will be interesting to see how 7. 24 pm Her Majesty’s Opposition react to that kind of legislation. Tom Hunt: I want to thank all hon. Members who In terms of new management, it is an interesting have contributed to this debate and the Minister for his tactic when the manager does not even send his players statement. I have had the benefit of discussing this out on the pitch. Frankly, it sometimes feels like that is matter before with the Minister. I am confident that this the case with the Leader of the Opposition. At some is not a simple thing to deal with. It is complex. It is not point, those players will have to be sent out on the pitch straightforward. and will have to vote one way or another. Abstaining is I appreciate that, as much the petitioners would like not a long-term strategy. It is a long Parliament and us to snap our fingers and sort the problem out, in time will tell. I do not mean to be too political, but many respects, the Government’s hands have been tied. clearly I have been. Clearly, after 31 December, the Government will be in a I thank all the petitioners. This is a very important much better position to take the kind of action we need issue that matters to millions of people up and down to take to deal with this issue. the country.I thank all the hon. Members who contributed. I may not have been quite clear, but I tried to say in I thank you for your wonderful chairmanship, Sir David, my speech that I think there should be an expectation which I have had the pleasure of twice this afternoon—I that someone who arrives in this country illegally will have been spoilt. I thank the Minister, in particular, for be sent back. Ultimately, there is a legal process to go a robust statement, which was reassuring and will reassure through. If someone rejects that process by not following many of the people who signed this petition. it, we must ask the question whether they are that Question put and agreed to. different from anybody else who knowingly breaks the Resolved, law. In my view, the answer to that question is “no”. That this House has considered e-petition 321862 relating to Many hon. Friends have made the point that there is immigration. a fact here. However good an individual may think their grounds are for claiming asylum and moving to Britain, at the end of the day they have come from a safe 7.28 pm European country. My understanding is that an asylum Sitting adjourned. 31WS Written Statements 19 OCTOBER 2020 Written Statements 32WS

The Government are reviewing Solvency II to ensure Written Statements that the UK’sprudential regulatory regime for the insurance sector is better tailored to support the unique features Monday 19 October 2020 of the UK sector and the UK regulatory approach. The review will focus on several specific areas of Solvency II, including the risk margin, matching adjustment, and reporting requirements, but the review will not necessarily be limited to these areas. TREASURY The Solvency II review will be guided by three objectives: To spur a vibrant, innovative, and internationally competitive insurance sector. Future Regulatory Framework and Solvency II Reviews To protect policyholders and ensure the safety and soundness of firms. To support insurance firms to provide long-term capital to The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen): support growth, including investment in infrastructure, venture In the written statement Financial Services Update on capital and growth equity, and other long-term productive 23 June [HCWS309], the Chancellor announced that assets, as well as investment consistent with the Government’s the Government would commence the next stage of the climate change objectives. future regulatory framework (FRF) review and bring Both publications are available on www.gov.uk and forward a review of certain features of Solvency II, the will be open for responses until 19 January 2021. prudential regulatory regime for insurance firms. The The Future Regulatory Framework Review consultation: Government have today laid the first FRF consultation on the wider regulatory framework for financial services https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/future- regulatory-framework-frf-review-consultation. and published a call for evidence as the first stage of the Solvency II review.These reviews reflect the Government’s Solvency II Review call for evidence: aim to make financial services regulation better tailored https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/solvenc-ii- to the needs of the UK economy and its citizens, and to review-call-for-evidence. support the UK’s world-class financial services sector. [HCWS523] Following the completion of phase I of the FRF review,which focused on improving co-ordination between the UK’s financial services regulatory bodies, the HOME DEPARTMENT Government are progressing with phase II of the review, which will examine how the wider regulatory framework for financial services should adapt now that the UK has Modern Slavery: Annual Report left the EU. The important and wide-ranging issues raised by this review, combined with the broad range of stakeholders that will be affected, make an in-depth The Secretary of State for the Home Department review process appropriate. The Government will therefore (Priti Patel): Today, I am publishing the 2020 UK consult in two stages, starting with the first consultation annual report on modem slavery. The report covers the published today. whole of the UK and has been drafted in collaboration Leaving the EU provides an opportunity to shape with the Northern Ireland Executive, the Scottish our regulatory framework for financial services so that Government and the Welsh Government. This report it is more coherent, agile and democratically accountable sets out an assessment of the scale of modern slavery in to support a stable, innovative and world leading financial the UK and outlines the actions that have been taken to services sector. The consultation proposes an overall combat it over the last year. approach that builds on the strengths of the UK’s A copy of the report will be available on www.gov.uk existing domestic framework by: and placed in the Libraries of both Houses. Providing a clear and coherent allocation of regulatory [HCWS521] responsibilities between Parliament, the Government and the financial services regulators. Setting out a legislative approach under which Government and Parliament can establish an enhanced policy framework WORK AND PENSIONS within which the regulators must operate. Making the UK’s expert, operationally independent regulators responsible for setting direct regulatory requirements on Private Pensions: Annual Benefit Statements financial services firms and markets, according to the policy framework set by Government and Parliament. Reviewing accountability, scrutiny and public engagement The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work arrangements, particularly in relation to the financial services and Pensions (Guy Opperman): The Government have regulators, so that these arrangements can be strengthened published their response to the consultation on the to reflect the regulators’ expanded responsibilities. approach to delivering simpler annual pension benefit This first consultation is intended to generate a wide- statements. ranging debate about the UK’soverall regulatory approach Participation in pension saving has been transformed for financial services. The views gathered through the through the success of automatic enrolment. However, first consultation will then be used to develop a final there is a growing likelihood that people will have a package of proposals which will be set out in a second number of different jobs in their lifetime, and therefore consultation during 2021. multiple pension pots and annual pension statements. 33WS Written Statements 19 OCTOBER 2020 Written Statements 34WS

This is why the Government’s ambition is for pension mandated approach to simpler statements, working with benefit statements to be simpler, more consistent and industry on the detailed design of the regulations and jargon free. Consistency across pension benefit statements associated statutory guidance. will help savers better understand their pensions and In addition, the Government will work with the pensions effectively plan for retirement. A standardised template industry to introduce a statement season, building on will be more accessible, drive member engagement and the success of pensions awareness month. It will support signpost members to detailed information on costs and the normalisation of workplace pension saving, provoke charges and investment strategy. It will also complement debate among the public and enable easier comparison the work Government are doing with the pensions between statements and providers. dashboard to bring pensions online to your phone or laptop. These measures will help individuals engage with We will focus first on defined contribution schemes their workplace pension savings, and enable savers to used for automatic enrolment, but it remains the long-term achieve greater financial security in retirement. ambition to improve consistency across all schemes. We [HCWS522] will consult later this year on draft regulations for a ORAL ANSWERS

Monday 19 October 2020

Col. No. Col. No. WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 735 WORK AND PENSIONS—continued Benefit Fraud Investigations ...... 747 Job Market Access ...... 745 Benefit Overpayments: Covid-19...... 744 Legacy Benefits and Universal Credit ...... 739 Benefit Sanctions and Welfare Conditionality: Pension Schemes Bill: Net Zero Carbon Covid-19 ...... 741 Emissions...... 739 Child Maintenance Service: Effectiveness ...... 749 People with Disabilities: Employment...... 746 Child Poverty: Covid-19...... 736 Supporting People into Work...... 737 Covid-19 Support: Eligibility ...... 747 Topical Questions ...... 749 Covid-19 Support: Worst-affected Sectors ...... 735 Universal Credit: Poverty Reduction...... 746 Covid-19 Temporary Measures ...... 743 Universal Credit: £20 Covid-19 Payment ...... 742 Employment Trends...... 748 Welfare Payments and Needs ...... 745 Job Entry Targeted Support...... 735 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Monday 19 October 2020

Col. No. Col. No. HOME DEPARTMENT ...... 32WS WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 32WS Modern Slavery: Annual Report ...... 32WS Private Pensions: Annual Benefit Statements ...... 32WS TREASURY ...... 31WS Future Regulatory Framework and Solvency II Reviews...... 31WS No proofs can be supplied. Corrections that Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked on a copy of the daily Hansard - not telephoned - and must be received in the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Monday 26 October 2020

STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT GREATLY FACILITATES THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF BOUND VOLUMES

Members may obtain excerpts of their speeches from the Official Report (within one month from the date of publication), by applying to the Editor of the Official Report, House of Commons. Volume 682 Monday No. 122 19 October 2020

CONTENTS

Monday 19 October 2020

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 735] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Work and Pensions

EU Exit: Negotiations and the Joint Committee [Col. 755] Statement—(Michael Gove)

Covid-19 Update [Col. 776] Statement—(Matt Hancock)

Immigration and Social Security (EU Withdrawal) Bill [Col. 802] Lords amendments considered

Petition [Col. 871]

Vaccine Misinformation Online [Col. 872] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Pet Theft [Col. 253WH] Immigration [Col. 277WH] General Debates

Written Statements [Col. 31WS]

Written Answers to Questions [The written answers can now be found at http://www.parliament.uk/writtenanswers]