[Wednesday, 8 August 1984]41 481

Africa, and said to the judge, "How is it that when Iuegielattnc (llunrit you are appointed by the Government, you and your fellow justices often give decisions which are Wednesday, 8 August 1984 not strictly in accord with the Government's wishes?" The reply from the learned South THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Hon. D. IJ African judge was to the effect, "We are ex- Wordsworth) took the Chair at 2.15 p.m., and tremely grateful at the time that the Government read prayers. has appointed us, but as is the wont with humankind, it takes us about three months before ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS: LAND RIGHTS we become fully convinced that it was determined by God." Uniform Legislation: As to Motion So, such people tend to make decisions in accord HON. N. F. MOORE (Lower North) [2.33 with the way they see their duties. I believe Pro- p.m.]: I seek leave to move a motion without no- fessor Reid will do likewise; there is plenty of tice relating to the Harding Dam. history to show that Governors have carried out Leave granted. their jobs as they see they should be done. I am HON. PETER DOWDING (North-Minister sure he will follow an illustrious line of for Planning) [2.34 p.m.]: I move- predecessors in this State and do a First-class job. It had not been my intention to speak on the That the motion be moved at a later stage Address-in-Reply debate, but I was of this sitting. upset, incensed, and outraged by the decision of Sir John Question put and passed. Moore in the Australian Conciliation and Arbi- tration Commission last week. I am referring, of ADDRESS-IN-REPLY: FIFTH DAY course, to the decision in what was listed as a Motion Federal termination technological change and re- dundancy case. This was said to be a landmark Debate resumed from 2 August. decision, and a landmark decision it certainly is. I HON. G. C. MucKINNON (South-Wcsi) [2.35 am convinced that it will go down in history as one pi.m.]: It saddens me, as of course it saddens other of those decisions which will do the opposite to members of this House, to know that I am taking that which the learned gentleman thought it would the slot which was allocated as a result of an do. adjournment motion by the late Hon. Gordon I believe it will ease the lot of people who are Atkinson. Yesterday a motion of condolence was being replaced, for whatever reason, but it will moved concerning Gordon Atkinson, and although have a disastrous effect on small businesses and I did not speak on it, it does not alter the fact that will work in a way opposite to that envisaged. I feel his loss sadly. From one end of the country to another it Will Some of us are lucky that despite a few hard- make employment less secure. ships along the way, we have managed to SUrvi ve I would go so far as to say that the judgment to a reasonable age. It saddens one to see a young, issued by the commission will change the nature of promising man like Gordon Atkinson struck down employment in small businesses across the land. in the prime of his life, at an age when a man is Big businesses are a thing apart. If BHP gets into needed by his family and community, perhaps far trouble in the steel industry, the Federal Govern- more than at any other stage in life. One wonders ment goes to its aid so it can recast the operation. about the justice of people my age, who have However, I am talking about the major employers served their most useful period, being here. It is in the country-the small businesses. I am talking not that I want to leave, but nevertheless it strikes about small operations which consist of two, or me as being a peculiar type of justice. three, five or six, a dozen, or 20 or so people. I would like to take this opportunity to con- Through no fault of their own a man and wife gratulate. Professor Gordon Reid and his wife, running a small business with four em- Ruth, on his appointment as Governor of this ployees-trusted, long-term employees--could State. I wish him success in his venture. I know he find themselves bankrupt under this scheme will carry out the duties of his position seriously, through the sheer necessity of having to terminate and give them his full consideration. people's employment. We can see no variation in I was discussing his appointment with a gentle- the instructions issued by the commission as to man this morning, and I was reminded of a story change of employment through technological ad- told to me by a friend sometime ago. He was vances. On the one hand, businesses are faced with discussing appointments with a judge in South the need to expand, and on the other hand they are (16) 482 482COUNCIL)

faced with the need to wind up the business be- That means that the right of an employer to put cause of the lack of sales and imminent foreclos- on a fellow or a woman will be questioned and ure or collapse of the business. I give one instance requestioned, examined and re-examined, before it on the need for finding a new job as follows- becomes a fact. It means quite the opposite of what the first paragraph of the newspaper leader Notice and finding new job said. It means that if a man running a small busi- Extended notice provisions have been ness sees the need for his business to expand, he outlined above. Notice provisions also apply will look for machines which will make his present to a demotion caused by redundancy. staff more productive. It happens to be a fact-members can check if if they like-that The Commission was prepared to provide. most of such machines are produced in America, in an award, that on application, an employer Italy, or Spain, so Australia will receive little ben- shall grant up to one day off without loss of efit from that sort of move. An employer will buy pay during each week of notice so that an the machines-air nailers, and the like-that will employee can seek other employment. save time and trouble, and he will increase his How much consideration did the commission give company's productivity. to the possibility of a welder at Turkey Creek This landmark decision is a farewell gift from taking a day off for each week of notice to look for Sir John Moore to the union movement-a fare- another job? Where would he go? Down to Halls well wave of his magic wand over the union accord Creek; up to Wyndham? One would not be able to about which we hear so much. We see the accord go to Wyndham and back in a day if it was in operation between the Minister for Education raining. That shows the absurdity of the and the University of Western Australia. I judgment. thought he would go down and show the senate, These are peripheral matters. The judgment instead of which he has sent Mr Latter. I cut my contains 60 pages, and the rules applying to it teeth on union elections, opposing Mr Latter on have to be written, yet most newspapers hail the street corners in Collie; and now I hear he is on the decision. For example, one newspaper carried the senate of the university. That is fame, I suppose. headline, "Safer jobs on the way". I hazard a He gave up being a Communist and joined the guess, based on a long and eventful life, that that Labor Party, and he appears to have a good fu- is utter rubbish. This "landmark" decision will ture. mean a panoply of temporary jobs, of casual work, Hon. Tom Knight: He still stayed a cornmo. of people employed for 11I months and laid off for a week before being re-employed. Those people Hon. G. C. MacKINNON: Mr Latter has been will be paid out for their holidays rather than sent down to cause trouble on the senate, I sup- being given holiday pay; then they will be re- pose. employed. That will certainly be the result of the I cannot understand learned gentlemen bringing conrnssion's decision. down a decision like the one on the job security test case. The only explanation one can think of is Another headline read, "Job security ruling that those gentlemen never employed anyone in seen as a landmark". I would be almost sure that their lives, other than someone to whom they paid instead of giving job security, the decision will $10 a week to do the gardening! That probably mean job insecurity. It could well be that we are applies to Sir John Moore. on the edge of a period of almost total job insecur- ity. We in this place are not unused to that situ- Hon. S. M. Piantadosi: They have seen too ation; it is a psychological problem with which one many unfair dismissals. lives. However, it could well be that with job Hon G. C. MacKINNON: The problem of un- sharing and the like, this is the way the tail will fair dismissals is not solved in this way. One does wag in the future. not take a D3- 10 caterpi llar tractor to crack a pea- In The West Australian of Friday, 3 August, nut or to crack an occasional unfair dismissal. I the following appeared- admit there are some unfair dismissals- A decision on job security handed down in Hon. S. M. Piantadosi: Many. the Arbitration Commission yesterday is Holn. 0. C. MacKINNON: There are not expected to have wide-ranging effects on in- many; there are a few. For every unfair dismissal, dustry and the economy. one could cite an example of the unfair treatment The decision means that the right of an of a boss by an employee. We all know that. Mr employer to sack an employee on a week's Piantadosi has been an employee. I have been both notice will disappear in Australia. an employee and an employer, so I have seen both [Wednesday, 8 August 19841 4838 sides of the question. I have been a trade unionist The members of the Bench were attracted and a tradesman, and I have run my own business, to the Tasmanian Government's suggestion so I have seen it from both sides. that a code of practice approach like that in Mr Deputy President (Hon. D. J. Wordsworth), the United Kingdom, indicating what are you and I know that at times employees are un- prima facie good employment practices, fair. You and I know that on more occasions em- should be adopted as a means of ployees are loyal, faithful, hard-working, and very implementing the objectives of the claim. productive. However, here we have an order, a However, they were not prepared, at this laid-down system, to make sure that any rapport stage, to make the complex and detailed pro- between small business employers and their em- visions in the ACTU's claim an award pre- ployees is damned forever. The price an employer scription and did not believe it necessary or must pay for keeping an employee over many desirable to specifically refer to the method of years-for keeping a loyal and worthwhile em- dismissal in the provisions they were prepared ployee, paying him a little extra, and making him to award. part of the small business family-is too savage to In other words, the commission was not prepared contemplate. to examine it in detail. Hon. Tom Knight: It will finish small business. For instance, a case exists where a fellow em- There is no doubt that you could not afford to take ploys 14 men who clearly fall into three categories. on people. I will take the case of a foundry works which Hon. G. C. MacKINNON: Yesterday, in tele- employs five workers, and Mr Dants would be phone messages, I was offered example after aware of this case. example of this situation. One fellow used to em- Hon. D. K. Dans: Have you read the decision of ploy 40 men; he has cut the number to 20, for a the- variety of reasons. He intends immediately to cut Hon. G. C. MacKINNON: I do not think any- the work force to 10 in case the new proposal is one has read it. adopted, and he will work on making those ap- H-on. D. K. Dans: I have read it. pointments into temporary part-time employment. He does not want to do it. Hon. G. C. MacKINNON: Mr Dans is a fast reader and he is lucky to have a copy of it. That is Hon. Tom Knight: He is forced to. the basis upon which rules have to be written. Hon. G. C. MacKINNON: He is forced to do Let me turn again to the case to which I was it. I quote from a paper which is described as referring before I was so rudely interrupted by Mr follows- Dans. A fellow running a small foundry would Australian Labour Law Reporter employ five or six foundry workers who would be The Australian Industrial Law Review members of the Australasian Society of Engineers, Australian Employment Law Guide Moulders and Foundry Workers Union, three (pending publication of Australian lathe operators-making nine employees-and a Employment couple of general workers. The fellow might de- Law Guide, subscribers to Australian cide to buy an automatic lathe from Germany to Personnel Management are receiving allow him to increase the quantity of finished work courtesy copies of this dispatch.) which came out of the foundry. Therefore, he This is an advance temporary Report. A would be able to decrease the number of em- regular loose-lear release will follow for inser- ployees by one. The fellow has 10 weeks in which tion in place in your Reporter. to discuss this matter with the union. Which A report contained in the paper states- union? Would it be the Amalgamated Metal Workers Union or the Moulders and Foundry The case was launched in 1982 by the Workers Union he would need to contact because Australian Council of Trade Unions. In he has managed to change the nature of his work? October 1983 the Australian Commi ssion handed down a ruling on jurisdiction-i.e. It could be a different procedure for an em- what the Commission had power to consider. ployer in the south-west who employs a foundry operator as a boilermaker-fireman. Members are Unfair dismissals. aware that the procedure of the timber mills in the The Commission believes that the south-west has changed because there is no longer Australian Parliament could give an appro- a call for them. A timber mill operator may be priate tribunal jurisdiction to award compen- going brake and finds himself in a position where sation to, or order reinstatement of, em- he has to change his operation to that of making ployees dismissed in breach of an award. pipe fittings for extensive sewerage work. Do not 484 484[COUNCIL] tell me that that is impossible, because I am quot- Notice ing actual cases. That person has to change the The Commission decided that there should nature of his work because of a change in circum- be no extension of the notice period for em- stances. Who lays down the procedure by which he ployees with only a short period of service shall abide? with the employer, but that those employees Hon. S. M. Piantadosi: It would be one union. who, at the time of the receipfof the no tice of Hon. G. C. MacKINNON: It is not just one termination, have been in continuous full union. Half of the people employed in this indus- time employment with the employer for more try do not belong to unions. than a calendar year should be entitled to an extra week's notice. Hon. S. M. Piantadosi: You mentioned two unions. I understand that works both ways. The employee Hon. G. C. MacKINNON: I mentioned one has to give two weeks' notice as well, and fre- fellow who employed members of three unions. quently that is not to his advantage. I heard about an example of that recently. An employee of a Hon. S. M. Piantadosi: The two unions which small business, a good worker, was offered a job as you mentioned are really only one uni.on. foreman with a larger business. He was required Hon. G. C. MacKINNON: I asked Mr Dans to start immediately, but he stated that he must about that subject and be gave me no lead at all. give his boss the statutorily required notice. He Hon. D. K. Dans: I gave you a truthful answer. said that his employer has been good to him and I am looking at a European review on countries had always paid overaward rates. Reluctantly the that have this provision, and the list includes new employer said that would be all right. The Luxembourg, France, England, Germany, provision will not always work to the employees' Sweden, Norway, and Denmark. advantage. Hon. G. C. MacKINNON: Australia is at the I wonder if the commission took that into ac- other end of the world and it has hardly any count? Surely it did. Members of that commission manufacturing exports anyway. Australia is are not fools and my contention is that they are totally dependant on minerals and agricultural ex- inexperienced because they have never been em- ports in order to keep afloat. The Government ployers or in the small business situation. wants to give all the power of representation to the The paper continues- city and to take it away from people earning Australia's export income. However, that is a dif- For each additional two years of service an ferent argument and that subject will be discussed additional week's notice should apply; with a at a later stage. maximum period of extended notice of four weeks. I am referring to the need for Australia to be competitive, but Mr Dants is referring to European I have no doubt that there are a few members in Common Market countries which have so many this Chamber who have actually employed men. built-in subsidies and protective devices. Mr Dans Hon. D. K. Dans: Men and women. knows that it makes his argument absolutely ab- surd. In a minute he will tell me that the United Hon. G. C. MacKINNON: I was brought up by Kingdom is a shining example! According to my my purist grandmother who taught me to remem- calculations that is not the case because the ber that when I mentioned mankind or men, half United Kingdom is in a lot of trouble. wore skirts and half wore trousers. I have a little difficulty learning this new fangled language. Hon. D. K. Dans: That is because of Mrs Thatcher. Hon. D. K. Dans: "Men" means what it says. Hon. G. C. MacKINNON: That is not correct, Hon. G. C. MacKINNON: I am sure some because the same situation applied when Harold members in this place have faced the situation Wilson was Prime Minister. where, for whatever reason, they have had a few Hon. D. K. Dans: Your own leader says he cross words with a fellow whom they have wants to follow the path of Mrs Thatcher. employed for several years. They have a row, and they finish up with bad feeling between them. One The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Hon. D. J. or the other says. "I wish to terminate our associ- Wordsworth): Order! H-on. G. C. MacKinnon has ation". It is generally said in far more brusque the floor. terms than that! I have witnessed a situation, and I Hon. G. C. MacK INNON: I am talking about am sure other members have, where the boss has an entirely different case altogether. Let me read said, "There's your bag; pack it up; come into the the following- office and I will pay you out". The employer gives [Wednesday, 8 August 1984]48 485 the employee a week's wages for doing nothing. People operating small businesses are worried He lets the employee go, and he goes. also about shopping hours and all sorts of other issues. However, alongside this ruling, other de- Frequently the severance is on quite amicable cisions of Sir John Moore and the Conciliation terms. The employee may say, "My wife wants to and Arbitration Commission pale into insignifi- go back to the city" or he may wish to leave his cance.- In one blow, this ruling has changed the employment for some other reason, and he does so future of the employment pattern of small a week later. businesses. Maybe small businesses will live with However, as a result of this new ruling, four that and it will be a good thing. weeks' notice must be given. In that situation an Maybe employees will be employed on a casual employer might not have a machine still working! basis and in the case of employing four or five He might have a handful of sand, half-a-cup of people, he will say to them, "You will come in on sugar, and a few cockroaches in the wrong place Monday and you on Tuesday", or "You come in for an inspector to find. We have all that sort of this week and you come in next week". Maybe nonsense. We used to do that sort of thing in the that is the sort of future we shall have; I do not prison camps to frighten the lives out of the poor. know. little Japs; however, they would frighten the lives out of us a few minutes later with a piece of four- Recently I employed someone who came to me by-two. from ajob sharing situation . He had been working one week on and one week off. Maybe that is the You, Sir, know that frequently, after a few cross sort of position we shall have in the future. words, one arrives at the situation where one However, if that is the case, I contend such a simply cannot allow a particular fellow-one who, situation should occur. through evolution; it should up until then was working quite satisfactorily-to not be forced on society by a decision like this. continue in a position of trust handling machinery This ruling is a revolutionary step. or equipment which is worth money. In regard to technological change, the com- I wonder whether the people who so blithely mission indicated- came down with these guidelines have any knowl- edge of that situation. I suggest they do not. They At this stage, the Commission was pre- are intelligent, knowledgeable people, but they are pared to include in an award a requirement that consultation take place with employees not very worldly or experienced in this field. and their representatives as soon as a firm In this State the authorities who deal with in- decision has been taken about major changes dustrial relations and employment have been in production, programme, organisation, inundated with phone calls from small structure, or technology which are likely to businessmen who are very worried about the have significant effects on employees. position. You and 1, Sir, know that right across I shall rephrase that, because the commission Australia small businessmen are facing very might as well have said, "When any small serious problems. To a large extent, they have businessman wishes to change the pattern of his become tax collectors, particularly in respect of business, he cannot do so until he has discussed the sales tax. One could make a speech of several change with people whose interests are totally hours' duration on the subject of sales tax alone alien to his own", because that was what the com- and the mess it is in. One could refer to the fact mission has said. that sales tax inspectors turn up, sometimes two at a time, to examine the books of a small business Let us take the case of a manufacturer-and and they argue about whether the proprietor is this is a situation with which Mr Knight may be liable for sales tax. That argument takes place in familiar. A person may be manufacturing internal front of the proprietor, and I have heard of case furniture for the cottage industry, furniture such after case of that occurring. People involved in as vanity stands, built-in wardrobes, built-in small businesses have to check every invoice on a kitchen cupboards, and the like. Many people are monthly basis to categorise each item to ascertain involved in that sort of manufacturing. A person in whether it should carry sales tax. They must es- that business might decide to change from using tablish whether an item relates to a radiator hose one sort of machine to another. He may decide to or a piece of ordinary hose, because radiator hose switch to having a standard drawer in all his carries a higher sales tax than does ordinary hose. components, so that he will use a dovetailing ma- If they make the slightest mistake, they are hauled chine and turn out all drawers in a standard size. over the coals. That is only one aspect of the effect Then the drawers will be cut off and they will fit this has on small businesses. into the wall cupboard. That is quite feasible. 486 486COUNC1LJ

That businessman must discuss that sort of The Bulletin has now started to call Bob change with people who do not have a clue about Hawke, -B-b Hawke" so his name is not misspelt. it. All they know about is working relations. They Phillip Adams came up with that very good point. do not know anything about business or the cur- As Bob Hawke has pointed out, we must do every- rent trends in the cottage industry. However, thing we can for the small businessmen. We must under this new ruling, that business man must get them to spend more freely and to employ consult them. A requirement exists for consul- people because they are the ones on whom the re- tation as soon as a firm decision is made about employment of the people of this country depends; major changes. yet Mr Hawke has been forced to stand idly by An employer may have eight fellows working and watch Sir John Moore bring down a for him in the furniture manufacturing trade. He recommendation or ruling-I do not know in may be making frames for lounge suites and up which classification it would be-which will until now he may have been wriggle nailing them. change the whole nature of employment He may decide to use air guns and joint them. possibilities for small businesses. With modern machinery, that is a feasible Hon. G. E. Masters: Mr MacKinnon, he did not proposition. By doing so, he will reduce his staff stand up and let that happen. He supported in from eight to four. This employer will have principle the application. The Commonwealth ordered the machines, in order to ascertain Government supported it. whether they are available-probably they are Hon. G. C. MacKINNON: The Common- manufactured in Italy. Then what does this man wealth Government did, yes. I am never quite sure have to do? He must go and talk to the representa- about how much Bob Hawke supports and how tives of the furniture manufacturers' union to much he is keeping quiet about hoping things will ascertain whether or not he can change this facet not happen. of his business. H-on. Tom Knight: Before you move off that Hon. Tom Knight: We must also consider the point, how many times have you seen small costs involved in putting off four men who may businessmen after 25 years in business, through no have been with him for 10 years. Imagine what fault of their own, in a had year go bankrupt, and that will cost him. the first claim on what they have left is the worker Hon. G. C. MacKINNON: He will have to pay who is left with nothing after 25 years? each of those men four weeks' pay; that is 40 Hon. G. C. MacKINNON: The member is weeks' pay. quite right, of course. There seems to be no differ- ence. Several members interjected. Hon. Kay Hallahan: You give them nothing. Hon. G. C. MacKINNON: The employees may have been working for that fellow for a long time Hon. Tom Knight: Listen to the waffle. and he will have been paying them over and above H-on. G. C. MacKINNON: He has to change the award rate. his system through new technology or alter the The point I am making is that not only the economy. The rules, of course, have yet to be written. Somebody must take the 60-page present Government, but also the Oppo- judgment and write the rules. sition-indeed all political parties-make a fair It would be interesting to see how the song and dance about the need to assist small rules would be written for the one day off per week to look for a new job business. I have been to many places and have heard members of all political persuasions point for people, say, working in the Pilbara. Will they be given a free air fare down? Will they out that the small businessman is the backbone of get a the community. three or four day break? Will they say the one day per week can be accumulated, so that employees When I was a young fellow the farmer was the can fly down and look for jobs? Of course, no backbone of the community. Then for a while the allowance has been made for this. miners were the backbone of the community. Now I am at a total loss to see how small businesses it is the small businessman who is the backbone of comprising the employer and his wife-generally the community. a tandem operation where both make the de- Bob Hawke-[ am sorry, we are not allowed to cisions-will cope with the situation and how they call the Prime Minister "Bob" anymore. Did will try to change the rules as will be necessary members notice the article in The Bulletin where when the desired changes are brought about the Prime Minister's name was spelt "B-b"? Ap- through alterations in technology, on the one parently the Jews always print God as 'G-d", so hand, and through alterations in economy, on the that they cannot misspell the name of God. other. [Wednesday, 8 August 1984]48 487

I have given the example of a group of em- Hon. G. C. MacKINNON: I still have the im- ployers who belonged to, say, three different pression that it is the case. I would be very unions. What happens to a fellow who has, say, a interested to look at it. dozen people working for him, none of whom be- Hon. D. K. Dans: The figures are very longs to a union? It is no good saying that does not interesting, I can tell you. occur or that is not a legal possibility, because I can point to half a dozen businesses in the country Hon. G. C. MacKINNON: Perhaps the Minis- which work on that basis. Bear in mind that it is ter might be so kind as to send me those figures. all right for city members who are dealing in the Hon. D. K. Dans: If you want them, yes, I will main with fair-sized businesses, but in the country do so. there are hardly any big businesses; they are all Hon. G. C. MacKINNON: I would be very small businesses. I suppose the biggest business in interested to see them, because I still think the the south-west would be the SEC; Bunnings would bulk of those people in chain stores would be casu- possibly run second, and the railways third. ally employed. Hon. A. A. Lewis mentioned hospi- tals. Until recently, of course, many hospital em- Hon. A. A. Lewis: Hospitals? ployees were casually employed. They were ex- Hon. G. C. MacKINNON: Hospitals are gen- tremely nomadic. They used to travel around, take erally regarded as being separate, but, yes, they employment for a year, take their holidays, and are an industry of a good size, but in the main they sever their connections with the hospital. They are Government operated and subsidised, so dif- might return and be re-employed and they might ferent rules would apply to them. One could come not. They would not be covered. That can be easily up with all sorts of fancy ideas and see a change in got around. work pattern due to advanced technology or what- The point I am making is that through different ever, or one could guarantee that employees have methods the situation could be changed and these continued jobs because the businesses are rules could be obviated. I suggest that on that subsidised by the Government. Small businesses, pattern of employment, the termination of em- particularly in country areas, are not subsidised by ployment at the end of each year, payout to the the Government. employee-his holiday pay, sick leave, all entitlements-and his re-employment if he wants I am delighted to see that a number of people it on an annual basis will, for many industries, have warned about the possible effect of this de- become the norm through sheer and absolute cision on small businesses in this State. The gen- necessity. l am suggesting that with a firm with 10 eral reaction of the unions has been to consider or 12 people, an employer may be getting into organisations such as BHP, CSR, and other huge financial difficulties and needing to cut staff and organisations. Hazarding a guess, I would say that return perhaps to a basis of a husband and wife the bulk of employees of large organisations like and perhaps two employees would be bankrupt. If chain stores, would be casuals. Key people would a firm had eight, nine, or 10 employees who had be permanently employed, but the general career over five years' employment each, with the payout officers and the bulk of the shop staff would be necessary to see them off the premises and casual labour employed on an intermittent basis. I terminate their employment, the firm itself would hazard a guess that none of this would apply to be bankrupt before it could re-organise itself. them. Those people who are tied up with unions It behoves the business community to look at and who jump at the slightest whim should look at the situation, because they will find that the bulk this matter very carefully. It also behoves em- ployers and their organisations to watch it like of their employees will not receive any protection hawks. Small businesses, at all under this measure because they are casual particularly in country areas, where they have been workers employed at so much an hour and they hit heavily by the could easily be coped with. Many people in large recent recession-people like the farm machinery dealers, with which Hon. A. A. Lewis has a very chain stores, and other big employers who into close affiiation-will come into that category, would be the career have to fight this every inch of the way. officers- Hon. A. A. Lewis: Hear, hear! Hon. Kay Hallahan: The result of- Hon. G. C. MacKINNON: With the Federal Hon. G. C. MacKINNON: I did not hear the and State Labor Governments apparently having member. to go very quiet about the whole thing, and being forced to laud it-they must know in their hearts Hon. D. K. Dans: I used to think that was the it is suspect-and with the ACTU clamouring for case, but strangely, that is not the case. it and the local TLC no doubt very much in favour 488 488(COU NCI[L] of it. they will be fighting a rearguard action. Men and women will benefit from the Content They will have their work cut out for them. of that Act, but women in particular will benefit. I guess that is why for me it was an especially im- All those interested in the future employment of portant day. people in this State must wish small business well in its battle because everybody in the Federal Coinciding with that day, an equal opportunity Government who has spoken about re-employment seminar was held that evening, and the reason I has stressed the fact that it must start from, and could not speak after the dinner suspension was the main drive must come from private employ- that I was chairing the meeting. It was meant to ment. Bob Hawke has said that time and time coincide with the day, and the Western Australian again and he is the guru of members opposite. He Women's Advisory Council brought to this State has also said repeatedly that the biggest employer Carmel Niland, the president of the Anti Dis- in the country is the small businessman, crimination Board of New South Wales. She is one of the most experienced people in Australia in I suggest the proposal I have been discussing dealing with the use of this kind of legislation. will be disastrous for small businessmen and a very sad and heavy blow indeed, particularly if the It was timely that the Women's Advisory Coun- economic promise of next year should falter and a cil thought it appropriate to bring her to Western slight downturn should occur. If that happens, this Australia and hold a number of community sem- will be an additional impost which will send many inars to lift our level of awareness about to the wall without hope of recovery, because they antidiscrimination legislation in practice. will not be able to salvage anything. For that I commend the State Government for its inten- reason, I sincerely hope it does not become part tion to bring such legislation forward in this and parcel of the structure of the Australian em- session, as outlined in the Governor's speech. I am ployment scene, and that we can make our moves sure members will be interested to take part in the in a much easier and evolutionary way than debate on such legislation, and we can explore that having to cope with this thunderbolt. whole issue in greater detail then. I hope that debate can move in a fairly broad way, maybe in a HON. KAY HALLAHAN (South-East Metro- bipartisan way. Personally, I think discrimination politan) 3.22 p.m.]: I wanted to speak to this f and those sorts of issues ought to be treated motion last week on I August-an historic day in outside a partisan context. the life of Australians. Regrettably that was not possible, given our Orders of the Day. Before I go The seminar I chaired at Willetton was treated on to the point I want to make about that day, I in that way. The people on the panel came from acknowledge the co-operation on both sides of this both major political parties, as did the people in House, of members who were aware that I was the audience, and many people were present who keen to speak before the dinner suspension and were politically less aware than those members of who co-operated as much as they were able in both parties represented at the gathering. It was order to make that possible. It was not possible, interesting that the meeting should have been held but that was not for the lack of co-operation by a at the Willetton. Sports Club because that club lot of members, and I appreciate that. plays a significant role in the Willetton com- Surprisingly, I would like to acknowledge the munity. It has an interesting history in relation to spirit of co-operation from my colleague, Hon. its membership. It has never had a two-tier mem- Sandy Lewis, on the opposite side of the political bership system with full membership and associate spectrum. membership. It has always had a straight structured membership in which the sex of the Hon. Robert Hetherington: One of the gentle member has nothing to do with the level of mem- people. bership. Hon. KAY HALLAHAN: The reason I Three years ago the club revamped its consti- August was such an important day was that on tution and it is now in gender neutral langftage. that day the Federal sex discrimination Act was For someone like me, that is a satisfactory state of proclaimed and became law. For people with an affairs. It is galling to read literature that pre- underdeveloped understanding of discrimination it sumes the World is male, and in spite of what Hon. may not have been a very important day. For Graham MacKinnon says about reading refer- those of us who have experienced discrimination ences to "male" as meaning the whole of and have an awareness of the acute need to do humankind, that is not the way I perceive it and I something about it, I August will go down in this do not react that way. If people want to influence country's history as the date that this nation tried me, they will be most effective if the content of the to do something about discrimination. messages is in gender neutral language. [Wednesday, 8 August 1984]48 489

I was pleased with the whole debate. This club I know many members are in favour of has a history of awareness of people's sensitivities maintaining the status quo. That may suit a lot of and the debate took place in a bipartisan atmos- people. However, I do not think that is an phere. I commend that to members here. Com- enlightened position to take and I do not think plaints by people that perhaps a club is sponsoring that it is a useful attitude for politicians, in par- a party political view in relation to discrimination ticular, to adopt. are quite erroneous and misunderstand the whole I understand, from the statement, that the nature of change taking place in our society. President had no problems with the terms of refer- The reason we need to look at these sorts of laws ence of the commission. No reference is made to a and have greater community debate and under- dissatisfaction with the commissioner either. The standing is that laws drawn up under the only problem seems to be that the setting up of the Westminster system do not protect people against commission was not instigated by the Parliament. discrimination. There is a growing belief that that Personally, I do not see-I do not think it can be is the case, and the belief is not limited to the supported-that there is a usurping of parliamen- personal experience of a few people, whether we tary privilege, or a conflict of parliamentary privi- call them radical or not. That is a view of our lege. We are talking about a Bill of Rights. I do society, and changes that come about will be made not want to denigrate a Bill of Rights. What we in the face of that need. are going back to and referring to is something which happened in 1689 to resolve a quarrel be- Another point I wanted to touch on briefly is tween the Monarch and the Parliament. I do not the opinion reflected in a statement by the Presi- think that that is a useful analogy to use in this dent to this House on 31 July. 1 cannot agree with regard. some of what is contained in the essence of that I commend the Royal Commission to all mem- statement. In fact, I doubt whether it can be bers. I do not think there is any glory in standing supported. by what has happened previously in this place. We The Royal Commission has been set up to con- need to examine what we can do about that and sider deadlock-breaking mechanisms. The estab- look at what we can adopt from other places and lishment of that Royal Commission was at what we can create ourselves. announced by the Minister for Parliamentary and I think the issue of the Royal Commission ought Electoral Reform. I am not sure why there has to be kept separate in member's minds from the been such a reaction to the formation of such an whole issue of electoral reform. There is a tend- inquiry. The inquiry will not usurp any of Parlia- ency to mix the two issues and to confuse them. I ment's powers. It will consider the machinery for think it is regrettable that that statement was the breaking of deadlocks between the two Houses made to this House by the President. I support thc in this State. It will then make recommendations mot ion. to the Parliament. It will then be up to the Parlia- HON. TOM KNIGHT (South) [3.35 p.m.]: I ment, and this House, to adopt or not to adopt have pleasure in supporting the Address-in-Reply those recommendations. I think the fear that that motion moved by Hon. Mark Neville on the open- inquiry will usurp Parliamentary privilege, or ing day of this session of Parliament. However, I whatever it is called, comes about because of a do not necessarily agree with the remarks misreading of the situation. I certainly do not contained in that Address-in-Reply want to be associated with that rear. I congratulate Professor Gordon Reid on his In relation to a deadlock between the two appointment as Governor of Western Australia. Houses of the Federal Parliament, we know that Fortunately, during the afternoon tea that fol- there can be a double dissolution and then a meet- lowed the opening of Parliament, I had the oppor- ing of both Houses can be held. We are limited in tunity of meeting him and talking with him. I was this State to a conference of managers. I under- very impressed with his attitude and with him. I stand that there have been about 121 of those. am sure he will do this State well and will become However, there is really no other mechanism for a worthy successor to the title of Governor of it. solving a deadlock. If the mechanisms for I also take the opportunity to congratulate my breaking a deadlock do not work or are not satis- new leader, Hon. Gordon Masters. We came into factory, then it is necessary to look for other ways Parliament together about 10 years ago. We have of changing the mechanisms. This may not been very close during that time. I am pleased to be comfortable for many members. We seem to see that he has attained the position as Leader of confront this problem in politics more than any- the Opposition in this place. He can rely on my where else. However, the existing means for re- full support. solving deadlocks are simply a recipe for non- I pay tribute also to Hon. 1. G. Medcalf. He is resolution of the problem. overseas at this stage. However, I appreciate the 490 490[COUNCIL) friendship and guidance which he has given me into Consolidated Revenue-a purpose for which and other members of this House during our terms it was never intended. of office, and particularly during the time that he The shire council of a little town in my elector- led us, firstly as the Leader of the Government in ate known as Gnowangerup wrote a letter to Mr this place and, secondly, as Leader of the Oppo- Wilson, the Minister for Sport and Recreation, sition in this place before Hon. Gordon Masters. stating that it was appalled at the recent an- Ian is the kind of man who saw that younger nouncement that the community sporting and rec- members of Parliament need to take more respon- reation facilities fund grants programme did not sible roles and, as he could see that members like include grants applied for by the council. It stated Hon. Gordon Masters were capable of taking over that those grants had been unsuccessful. Appli- his leadership, he stepped down to allow that to cations for grants were made by the Borden sports happen. I hope that that will mean that Ian and ground reticulation committee and the Borden Maxine will find more time to visit their beautiful cricket club. As members would be aware, these little cottage at Bayonet Head in Albany, a cot- organisations are in my electorate. tage which I have had the pleasure of visiting on a number of occasions. The letter states- Borden is a very small town in this Shire I want to raise a number of issues that affect my and the small community has shown tremen- electorate. I will not do that by saying that I hope dous spirit and self help qualities to ensure that members will bear with me while I do an their identity and provide facilities for their electorate tour. sportspersons. Hon. D. K. Dans: You have no alternative. I note the use of the word "sportspersons" which is Hon. TOM KNIGHT: That is right. Howcver. very up-to-date, and I am sure Government mem- it will not be an electorate tour. Many things that bers will be pleased with that. The letter con- have occurred in the last few months directly af- tinues- fect my electorate and, at the same time, affect Such community efforts have raised in ex- Western Australia. The first matter I wish to raise cess of $50 000 to assist in providing concerns the Department for Youth, Sport and reticulated ovals and we feel that they are Recreation. I am the Opposition spokesman for worthy of support from the Department of Sport and Recreation. Youth, Sport and Recreation. Such facilities which are common place in the larger areas I am concerned that the allocation of the pro- and the city are only provided in the country ceeds from the Instant Lottery which was by the work of local volunteers and in this introduced by the previous Government has now Shire such facilities have been provided in the been altered to the degree that the percentage three centres, of the Shire Ongerup, Borden which was to be used for Sport and culture has and Onowangerup in the last four years at been reduced to a nominated amount-a sum far great expense to the residents and dedicated less than was originally intended. If I remember volunteers in an attempt to retain their youth correctly, an amount of $56 million was raised by and support their lifestyle. the Instant Lottery. Of that figure, an amount of $5.6 million was to be allocated to sport and cul- These are both important points: the retention of ture. However, we now see that a maximum young people in these country areas rather than amount of $3 million is to be allocated for that their exodus to the metropolitan area looking for purpose. work; and, of course, the lifestyle which those who live in the metropolitan area accept as a normal The intention of the previous Government was way of life. However, people in country areas have to find out how much the lottery raised and then to work and fight for such a lifestyle. They use to allocate l0oper cent of that amount to sport and charity fund raising efforts to raise money. culture. That would have meant a lot more money being allocated to sport and culture than is now In his reply, Mr Wilson stated- being allocated. In fact, the amount of $5.6 The number of applications far exceeded million would have been allocated for those pur- expectations-in excess of 470 being received poses. for projects totalling just on $7 million. Because of the shortfall now being suffered by As you are well aware, the fund was lim- many organisations in this State, and particularly ited on this occasion to $1.4 million. by sporting bodies, these organisations are experi- Had we followed the previous Government's inten- encing financial problems. The balance of the tions, an amount of $5.6 million would have been money that should have been allocated is going available for sport and, therefore, the shortfall [Wednesday, 8 August 1984]49 491 would have been much smaller. This letter refers virtual extinction of that industry owing to the to $1.4 million being allocated, not the $3 million IAC's recommendation to reduce the tonnages that had been allowed for. If my arithmetic serves caught along the south coast. The area extends me right, that is $1.6 million less than promised right through from Walpole to Cape Arid, which when this Bill was passed, or a figure below that if means that Esperance would also be drastically the sum raised was not in keeping with affected. expectations. The letter continues- With something like 109 tuna boats now li- I note in your closing remarks that you censed on the south coast, the recommended re- have drawn attention to the Instant Lottery duction from the 4 000 ton nes caught last year to monies. Whilst the Instant Lottery is continu- an estimated 1 000 tonnes this year meant a 75 ing to be a success, the Government has per cent reduction in the total catch for the great restricted for the moment- southern area. This would have resulted in 75 per That is a ridiculous statement. I would have cent of all tuna fishermen and their boats being thought that if the Instant Lottery was continuing deprived of work, and at least one of the canneries to be a success, more money could be put into would have had to close. sport and culture rather than restricting the funds. It continues- After repeated meetings, with the State Minis- ter (H-on. Dave Evans) supporting the push by -funds for its sports and arts programmes Fishermen down there, and the pressure from local to $3 million per annum. members, it all resulted in the present happy situ- That is allowing $1 .5 million for sport facilities ation under which, although we may not get the and S 1.5 million for culturc facil1ities, and that was 4 000-tonne figure caught the previous year, it is not thle original intention, The funds provided by expected the figure will be 3 000 rather than the people subscribing to thle Instant Lottery arc recommended 1 000 tonnes. slowly being eroded. It is little wvonder that people a re compla in ing atbou t thle gra nts for t hese ImIport- The ridiculous part of all this is that the initial ant facilities. The letter continues- pressure for change came from the Eastern States fisher men. Obviously the Federal Government These funds are in the main, made avail- bowed to the pressure of their numbers and the able for sports programmes and are not gen- voting figures in the Eastern States and went erally available for capital programmes. The along with the request by the Eastern States capital programmes for clubs and community fishermen to reduce the catch. groups are funded from the State's Consolidated Revenue Fund. Of the Australian total of 19 000 tonnes of tuna It was never intended that the scheme should work caught at the time the IAC recommendation was in that way and it is proof that the money raised made, Albany had a 3 000-tonne reduction which for this purpose is going into Consolidated Rev- brought the figure back to 16 000 tonnes while the enue. I hope that the Government will make sure Eastern States fisheries suffered only a 2 000- that income from the Instant Lottery goes into tonne reduction; in other words, their percent- providing facilities for sports, arts, and culture, as age-12 per cent-was very small while we had was originally intended. something like 75 per cent cut from ours, a figure which would have devastated the industry here. In this connection, I refer to the situation where only one application for funds for the whole of the The total catch is to be retained at something great southern area was approved and that like 17 000 tonnes while the figure for the local involved a project in Albany. I understand that fishermen on the south coast is to remain at 3 000 approximately 470 applicacions for funds were tonnes. It had been said that 4 000 tonnes had submitted with most from the great southern re- been caught the previous year, but in fact some- gion. Most sporting clubs put forward proposals, thing closer to 8 000 tonnes had been caught as a but only one application was approved. That is a result of the size restrictions introduced in the bad situation. previous year. It was necessary to return any tuna Hon. Mark Nevil11: What about Ravensthorpe? caught under a specific size. However, as anyone who is aware of what happens in the tuna industry Hon. TOM KNIGHT: That is not in the great would know, the Fish are caught by a hook on a southern area. It is in the eastern districts. rod and line without any bait being used. The tuna Sitting suspended from 3.45 to 4.00 p.m. in a school are stirred up to such a degree that Hon. TOM KNIGHT: I will comment now on they will virtually jump on anything that moves, the tuna industry along the south coast and the which in this case is a silver hook. They are flicked concern felt down there about the possibility of the on the boat. The scene is one of almost perpetual 492 492[COUNCIL] motion-jag, throw in, again and again. There is people involved paying back something to the in- no time to stop to check the size of the fish. dustry in case something like this happens in the Were an undersize tuna to be thrown back future. straightaway, the whole school of fish would leave My next topic relates to the great southern com- the area at once because the rest of the fish would prehensive water scheme, a topic I have raised sense the terror of the returned fish. So, if one of before in this House. Following a lot of pressure the first fish caught were undersize and was from members of Parliament, last Financial year thrown back, the fishermen would face the possi- the scheme was extended as far as Kendenup. In bility of the whole school disappearing. After a the previous year, the people of the town suffered sufficient quantity is caught, or the school leaves, badly because of water restrictions, and I think the undersize fish are thrown back into the water. everyone there was carting water. Thanks to press- The problem is that by the time they are returned, ure from parliamentarians, backed up by the local half are already dead. councils and the people of the area, the pipeline which constitutes part of this great southern com- The suggestion put forward was that, if the fish prehensive water scheme was extended to stocks were to be saved, there should be an unlimi- Kendenup. ted size and the amount caught last year along the south coast should be cut by half. Some 10 years ago, the whole idea behind the scheme was that it would go right through to Commonsense has prevailed; nonetheless 25 per Tambellup. In a letter to me, the Minister said cent of our fishermen will be looking to follow that it was never intended the pipeline should go other pursuits because the cutback in their income that far because the joining of the schemes would will make their jobs unviable. Although every be of no significance. That is wrong, because we fishermen licensed last year will be granted a would then have a major supply source at each end quota, it will be insufficient for many of them to of a major supply pipeline, with supplies coming make a living. Other fishermen will be able to buy from Mundaring Weir at one end and from the their quotas, but the money will not be enough to south coast at the other. This would provide an allow those leaving the industry to establish in opportunity if needed for the pumping to be another industry unless they can sell their gear reversed and for the water to travel in either direc- and boats. However, tuna boats are built specifi- tion.This would mean the entire area would be cally for tuna fishing, which means it will be diffi- covered, an important factor in the event of a cult for them to use their boats for other fishing. disaster north or south of the scheme. Most of the boats fall into the $35 000 to $75 000 bracket. Unless another use can be found for these It was to be extended to Cran brook to overcome the roaded boats, many fishermen will be in a messy situ- catchment of the normal dam supply to the town. In 1968, 1969, and 1970, Cranbrook was ation. on water restrictions and the people of the town That is why I am saying that the Government had to cart water for all their requirements. If we should be responsible for assisting with the re- have other years like 1968 to 1970, people could establishment of these fishermen who sell their face another water shortage. Although the dams quotas. I do not want the same situation to apply are sufficient in times of heavy rainfall, they are as happened in Albany with the closure of the not sufficient during drought periods such as those whaling industry, when promises made then did experienced in the late I 960s. The scheme should not eventuate and nothing happened. tn this case, be extended to Cranbrook poste haste. However, we must make it happen. what everyone is forgetting is that between When we consider industries of this type which Kendenup and Cranbrook is another small town involve natural resources that can be affected by called Tenterden. overfishing or whatever, perhaps we should be That town has no water supply. Even though the considering the levies paid on grain and on po- town is small, the water supply should be extended tatoes, where a bank of money is kept in the to it because a commitment was made to do so 10 interests of the industry so that in hard times the years ago. Regardless of what Government made industry can assist the people affected by a closure that commitment, it should be complied with. or a cutback in the industry. In this way the people During the Tonkin Government period of office, involved could be assisted to re-establish them- 1971-1974, a comprehensive research of that area selves in another industry. We should be consider- was carried out for the purpose of establishing a ing something like this so that in future the indus- water scheme. So, such a scheme has been the try can assist the people involved rather than their policy of both political parties. The people in the having to rely on the taxpayers. An industry which area should not be suffering because so much is strong and a good money-spinner should see the money is being spent in the metropolitan area or in [Wednesday, 8 August 1984j 4939 other parts of the State. I ask that the Minister Hon. TOM KNIGHT: It is certainly not like look into the matter on the basis of what was that at the moment. It is a disaster area. If the proposed 10 years ago, and hope that something damage had extended another 10 metres, the surf can be done for those people who have waited for lifesaving pavilion would have been undermined. so long for a water supply. That is how bad the situation is at present. Recently we had one of the worst storms in Over the years we have helped the areas of Albany I have seen for some time. On Saturday I Mandurah, Bussehton, and Bunbury with dune res- drove down Marine Drive to look at the damage to toration, in fact, all down the west coast and along Middleton Beach. You would be aware, Mr Depu- the south coast. We have spent millions of dollars ty President (Hon. D. J1.Wordsworth) of the area very well. However, in this instance I believe the I am talking about because you were at one time Goverment will have to move quickly to retain filmed running from the water at Middleton something which is the heritage of all Western Beach after an early morning swim. Australians. At the Middleton Beach Esplanade Hotel area Something should be done about re-establishing some Norfolk pine trees which were planted 40 or the area because Albany has been riding high with so years ago are about 30 to 40 feet back from a the tourist flow over the last few years. Our concrete wall. At the moment waves are lapping Premier is the Minister for Tourism and he has over that wall and the area is completely shown a great interest in Albany and the build up undermined. Two of the trees have been lost and of tourism; therefore, he should make sure that two have been jacked up in the hope that they can every possible step is taken to ensure that be saved. In the Griffith Street development, the Middleton Beach is close to, if not normal again area between Middleton Beach and Emu Point, before the tourist season starts. the town council, in conjunction with the Depart- Some of the people who have looked into the ment of Conservation and Environment, has been restoration of sandhills and beaches know what carrying out dune restoration very successfully. should be done. Ideas have been to knock down Handrails have been installed, Marron grass has some of the sandhills and push the sand further been planted, and wire netting placed on the area forward, so that with the residual waters the beach in an effort to conserve it. However there is now a is reformed. It would mean a wider beach and less 15 foot drop hal F-way down a path which has been sandhills, but at least it would be a beach. set with sleepers for people to step onto the beach. to raise relates to the In the Emu Point area, cars can be parked there, Another matter I wish who operates boats are launched from the point, several cata- plight of Mr Tomlinson, a fisherman Harbour. maran and pedal boats operate from there, and from the western end of Princess Royal children can wade to the Oyster Island shallows. Because of pollution and effluent in the harbour, and the mercury build up in the fish caught there, In a statement I heard on the news on Tuesday the harbour has been closed to fishing. Mr night it was estimated that half-a-million tonnes of Tomlinson established himself as a fisherman and sand had been washed out- From what I saw on was granted a licence to fish in the harbour in Saturday morning, that would be an extremely 1977. Since then, because of the popularity of the conservative statement, bearing in mind that a fish he has caught in that area, he has built up a cubic metre of sand usually weighs in excess of large custom. He bought a new boat, nets, and a one tonne. This sand has been washed away along new motor vehicle. He, like others, has a mortgage a 2 / mile beach area which is 20 to 30 metres on a home and a family to feed, educate and wide. If we consider all that, we realise the news clothe. However, with the closing of the harbour report was an understatement. The area is covered his business has stopped and he cannot fish in any with seaweed which has been washed in with the other area. heavy seas. He looked around for a job and was told that if The Government should have officers down he took another job, or even if he received the there to talk with the shire council, the emergency dole, he would lose his fisherman's licence, but services organisation, and in particular the tourist while he held his fisherman's licence he would be bureau, to see what can be done. In three month's ineligible for unemployment benefits. H-I is in a time the main tourist season starts. Most of the catch 22 situation. He cannot do anything but Fish members in this Chamber have seen at some time in Princess Royal Harbour, and the minute he the number of tourists who visit Middleton Beach. forfeits his licence he can have no guarantece that I would say it is a tourist spot of world renown. It it will be returned. is certainly known Australia-wide. Then, if by some quirk of fate the Minister Hon. Robert Hetherington: A lovely spot. decided to throw open Princess Royal Harbour, 494 494[COUNCIL] and Joe Bloggs stepped in and applied for a licence the patient in hospital, we think in that area, Mr Tomlinson would miss out on the Medicare should be looking at this dis- issue of a licence. He has looked at other estuarine crepancy with the view to providing areas along the coast, but they would not give him home nursing benefits. the type of fish he wants and it would mean that This can affect so many, so we thank he would encroach on the operations of other you for your co-operation. fishermen and perhaps put two people out of work. The hospital funds pay $40 a day. I wrote to the He asked his wife to apply for unemployment Public Health Department in Western Australia benefits. She was offered a job at the woollen mills and asked for some figures, and I received the operating machinery. However, because she is following reply- short-sighted she did not want to operate machin- ery for safety reasons as it could be dangerous. You are no doubt aware that the Common- She did not take the job, and has now been struck wealth Department of Health provides a off the list of those eligible for unemployment Domiciliary Nursing Care Benefit to relatives benefits. The family has been kicked from pillar to caring for patients at home. This is currently post because of happenings which have not been of at the rate of $42 per fortnight. their own making. All I ask at this particular stage In response to my second query, the department is that Mr Tomlinson be given permission to sur- advised me that as at 30 June 1983, the average render his estua rinle fishing licence, on the guaran- cost per patient per day in teaching hospitals was tee that as soon as Princess Royal Harbour is $340; in the non-teaching hospitals, it was $170 reopened for fishing, the licence will be reinstated per day; and in Government nursing homes the immediately. cost was $68 per day. The Government sees fit to In this way, Mr Tomlinson would receive unem- pay that sort of money to keep people in hospitals, ployment benefits, and the mninute the harbour but it can see its way clear to paying only $42 a was ready for fishing, he could move hack into his fortnight for a person who is being cared for in his business, draw back his customers, and not be a or her own home and who is saving the cost to the drain on the State or the Federal taxpayers. I want taxpayer. On that simple basis, the Government the Minister's guarantee that if Mr Tomlinson would be far ahead. surrenders his licence, it will be reinstated when If the Government increased its payment, the the matter is thrown open again. people concerned would appreciate the fact that it Recently, the Country Women's Association had done something, and they would live in their wrote to me on several occasions asking me to look own homes while going through the terminal into the question of the domiciliary nursing care stage of an illness. If thie Government pitid $200 a benefit. For the information of the House, I will week to keep a patient at home, most people would read one of the many letters 1 have received from be happy to stay at home. The present payment of different branches of the association as follows- $40 a day does not compare with the cost of $340 Dear Sir, a day to keep a person in a hospital. It we multiply that by seven, we have $2 300 a week to keep a On behalf of all our members I write person in a teaching hospital. If we reduce that concerning the lack of home nursing cost to $200 a week, I guarantee most people benefits through Medicare. would take that sum and stay at home. However, If a person with a terminal illness they will not do so while the Government pays wishes to stay in his or her home, rather only $42 a fortnight. The Government is taking a than in a hospital, then financially that pretty narrow, head-in-the-sand attitude with the person is only eligible for home nursing taxpayers' money. benefits provided from ancillary benefits from his or her insurance fund. One constantly hears the cry about the cost of medical care and health benefits, and it is little The H.B.F. allow $40 per day for wonder when it costs $340 a day to keep a person home nursing, for not less than a six hour in hospital. We should listen to the plea by the day, and a maximum benefit of $800 per various branches of the CWA in my electorate year. This means that only 20 days can and throughout Western Australia for a payment be met through insurance. There is no of $200 or $300 a week, because the Government benefit through Medicare. would then save $2 000 a week for each patient Cancer patients may be looking for a who stayed at home. If the Government did that, far greater period than 20 days home the people would stand behind it and put more nursing, and considering the saving in pressure on Dr Blewett who would have to "'blow" costs to the Government, by not having something else, and we would reach the stage at (Wednesday, 8 August 1984149 495

which we were helping people, which is what support for the Government if the Government medical care is about. If people want to care for makes the money available. their sick relatives and save the taxpayers that Mr Deputy President (Hon. D. J. Wordsw~rth), cost, they should be allowed to do so. I raise the you and I are deeply concerned about the proposed question because it should be considered carefully grain freight policy of the Government. Over the with a view to action being taken. last few months, in our electorate we have Another matter I have raised in the House pre- attended several meetings regarding that policy. viously relates to the Albany swimming pool. I We have spoken to many people throughout the have received a letter from Mr Dowding, who is electorate. The meeting at Ongerup is the one that the Minister for Planning, Minister for Employ- will long stay in my mind. Ongerup is a very small ment and Training, and Minister for Consumer town north-east of Albany. The meeting in the Affairs. That letter is in response to my last ad- local town hall was called to discuss the situation. dress to this House asking for finance to be made I would go so far as to say that never have as many available through some source or other to establish people been in that town hall since it was built. As a swimming pool in Albany. Members should bear you, sir, saw at that meeting, 400-odd seats were in mind that over the last 15 or 20 years, the put out after 100 had been borrowed. The people projected cost of the swimming pool has risen were standing eight deep at the back of the hall from something like 375 000 to $I million. The and three deep down the side of it. To a man, they town and shire councils have agreed to contribute, voted to oppose the Government's proposed grain if I remember rightly, two-thirds of the cost, freight policy. asking for a Government contribution of some- thing like $330 000, That policy would take the lakes district grain, which is now road transported to Esperance, away Hon. G. E. Masters: Is that for the heating? from Esperance. That would mean the removal of Hon. TOM KNIGHT: Obviously, in Albany. 150 000 ton nes of grain from the port, and it That would make it an all-year-round pool. That would virtually put OD Transport out of business. would benefit not only swimmers, but also ar- I do not think Esperance could take the economic thritis and asthma sufferers. More things than shock of that. In addition, the Government would swimming can be done in a swimming pool. remove 60 per cent of the bins from Southern In a town the size of Albany and the sur- Transport Pty. Ltd. and put the grain on rail at rounding districts, a swimming pool is essential. Newdegate. The railway from Newdegate to Lake Swimming is an important part of our autumn Grace is in such a delapidated condition that games, and we have people who go swimming in trains must travel at a slow pace, even when they the ocean. However, to my knowledge, no-one are empty. When they are fully laden, they must from Albany has ever achieved success in competi- be monitored to make sure there is no chance of an tive swimming because Albany does not have the accident. facilities to cater for competitive swimming. One must think of the amount of money that Albany won the country part of the surf lifesaving will need to be spent to upgrade the railway. This competition in Perth, and it came second in the Government and the previous Government have main competition; but people in Albany do not been tearing up rails around the country because have the opportunity to enter competitive swim- they have not been required. Westrail has said ming. as should be their right. that it can cart the grain at a lower rate than can People have supported the establishment of in- private enterprise. However, it has been proved land pools, but that does not help the people living that private enterprise operators have always on the coast and who want to be involved in com- undercut prices charged by Westrail. petitive sport. When I raised the matter with the Hon. Fred McKenzie: That is because they have Minister, I received the following reply- had a road provided and have had subsidies paid I have been advised that an application for by other motorists. a C.E.P. grant for the Albany Swimming Pool project has been lodged and is currently Hon. TOM KNIGHT: Why subsidise it and being assessed prior to it being referred to the take more of the taxpayers' money? It will not Committee. prop up Westrail. That was dated 5 April 1984, and I have heard Hon. Fred McKenzie: The roads have been nothing since that time. built for bigger trucks and the ordinary motorists have had to subsidise the cost. Community employment programme funding is being wantonly thrown around the country. This Hon. TOM KNIGHT: Every motorist, includ- project should receive a great deal of backing and ing the city motorist, has subsidised it and that is 496 496[COUNCIL] not including the money that is obtained through will be lost, and it is estimated that 600 direct and Petrol subsidies, etc. indirect jobs, could be lost in Albany. For Mr McKenzie's information, the railway Hon. Fred McKenzie: Who picks up the extra line to which I am referring is in a dangerous jobs? condition. In order to cart grain on it the line must Hon. TOM KNIGHT: What extra jobs? be upgraded. I am sure that Mr McKenzie is aware of the cost of upgrading railway lines. Hon. Fred McKenzie: They do not go to Someone will have to pay for it, and it will be the Westrail. taxpayer. Hon. TOM KNIGHT: It has been said that Westrail has threatened the northern wheatbelt Westrail will cart grain to Albany and it will for- farmers that if the southern wheatbelt farmers do get about Esperance. The Albany Port Authority not agree with its policy their costs will not be appears to be the only one pleased with the policy decreased. It is almost a blackmail situation. because it believes it will get a few extra ships through that Port. However, the increase in As a result of the 60 per cent cut to Great shipping will not make up for the deficit. It is Southern Carriers, Albany will suffer. That loss better that the people in Albany be kept in the jobs will be in the order of $4 million per annum. With which they have held for years. 150 000 tonnes of grain being carted by rail, road transport drivers will be out of work; Petrol At a recent meeting in Albany, residents stood stations, mechanics, and those businesses which up as one man and voted in favour of the policy of service the truck operators will suffer. Families road transport continuing through the medium of will suffer. Great Southern Transport, a company which has done a magnificent job. It is operating in places The Government's move is simply to prop up like Ongerup, Jerramungup, and Needilup. That Westrail. I feel sorry for the Westrail employees company stepped in when transport was required who may lose, or who have already lost their jobs, in those areas. The farmers were told by the but why exacerbate the situation and wipe out the Government that if they wanted to live in those transport drivers who have spent up to $1 50 000 areas they would have to put up with the prob- on big rigs and who have met the cost of lems. They got Great Southern Transport to solve establishing their homes? Their families have been those problems and I do not see why any Govern- forced to live in decentralised areas, in Albany and ment should move in and change that situation. surrounding towns which is the Government's pol- icy of decentralisation. Hon. Garry Kelly: Do you think Westrail should compete with Great Southern Transport? Who will buy the rigs? The transport drivers will have the mortgages foreclosed on their homes, Hon. TOM KNIGHT: It has tried. and we will be raced with a Financial situation Hon. Carry Kelly: It should try again. If at first which the present Government could not handle. you don't succeed, try, try again. The farmers are being told that Westrail wilt Hon. TOM KNIGHT: As members are aware, not be providing a service that is cheaper than that rail transport has never succeeded in tendering of road transport, but in ive years it will be. Once against road in WA. It has been tried. It has also road transport enterprise has gone and the oper- been said that someone could buy the railways, ators have sold their trucks, who will compete with but the running costs are higher than those of road Westrail? I believe the Government of the day transport. should turn around and say, "We will jack up the In the Borden area the farmers have to cart cost and wc will make rail pay, because we have their grain to Gnowangerup. I think the cost per no otheralternative". tonne for cartage is $14.90, and it has been agreed Let us not joke -about it, because this sort of to cut it back to $10.50. A profit could not be thing could happen. At the present time the made by charging that rate. The farmer must pay farmer has his grain picked up by transport oper- for carting the grain from Borden to ators and it is delivered to the bins at the ports of Gnowangerup at a cost of $2.50 per tonne and yet Albany or Esperance for escalating onto ships. Great Southern Transport carts it to Albany for With Westrail carting the grain, another handler $I11per tonne. will be involved and the farmer will have to pay It is ludicrous to think that the Government is for that extra handling. prepared to stick its neck into something with It is a disastrous policy and it will affect many which the people operating in that area are happy. people. Westrail has indicated only a few em- We have a situation where the farmers are de- ployees will be kept in work; 60 per cent of the lighted with the existing service. The trucks work undertaken by Great Southern Transport backload with superphosphate and if this were [Wednesday, 8 August 1984]19 497 done on rail, farmers would be charged freight Hon. Garry Kelly: it is trying to reduce the both ways. In five years' time the Westrail freight deficit. charges will be increased. Hon. TOM KNIGHT: What is the situation I know that Mr McKenzie is associated with the with Westrail which will change with this Govern- railways and I admire him for his involvement, ment? Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: Mr McKenzie does not Several members interjected. have an association with the railways, he has a Hon. Fred McKenzie: Has it not reduced the love or it. rates by 20 per cent? Hon. TOM KNIGHT: I appreciate that, andI IHon. TOM KNIGHT: Who pays it? The like to see people who are dedicated to matters in owner-drivers are buying bigger trucks. The more which they are involved, I appreciate his dedi- one puts into the truck the less it costs per kilo- cation to and love for, as Mr MacKinnon has said, metre. Look at the size of these big road trains. the railways. We have seen MrT McKenzie battle Twenty years ago they would probably do two for Westrail in this House, but this is the most miles to the gallon. Today they do 10 miles to the ludicrous thing we have heard. The farmers do not gallon. Private enterprise is always cutting down want it, the trades people do not want it and, in on costs. Government enterprise could not care fact, the community does not want it. because any shortfall can be picked up. This will Hon. Fred McKenzie: Do you know who wants continue to be the problem. I do not want to ex- it? acerbate the problem; there is a big deficit to be. Hon. TOM KNIGHT: Who? picked up. Hon. Fred McKenzie: Fred McKenzie. Several members interjected. Several members interjected. Hon. TOM KNIGHT: Hon. Garry Kelly and I-on. Fred McKenzie know what I am talking- Hon. TOM KNIGHT: We know of the prob- about and they appreciate my point. Fred lems of strikes in regard to grain and wool McKenzie has a love of and feeling for Westrail; shipping and live sheep shipping. There is a situ- Mr Kelly does not know the first thing about it. ation with OD Transport Pty. Ltd. The "OD' stands for owner-drivers. Those people own their Several members interjected. trucks; they are subcontract drivers-self- Hon. TOM KNIGHT: I have a file here from employed people who do not have to become part which I could quote figures, but I am Sure mem- Ofra union. bers would rather I got on to another point. I think I ask members to imagine what could happen, I have covered the subject well enough to let the with an estimated record harvest in excess of six Government, and I hope the Minister, see that this million tonnes, if the railways go on strike. What is a disastrous direction they are taking. It will be will the farmers do? Wheat cannot be left on the disastrous For the people in the areas we represent, stalks, and farms do not have the facilities to store for private industry, and in the long run for it. After a while the bins at the sidings will be full. Westrail. We will finish up with such a chaotic The wheat must be moved into the port and onto situation that Westrail will take the blame for the ships. something it had nothing to do with and we will be left with the debt. Rail lines have been pulled up, Last year deliveries by road to Albany had to be services have been cut, and staff numbers have stopped as the bins were full. If the employees of been decreased. Unfortunately that is the way Westrail went on strike, that would paralyse thd things have been going right throughout the world. biggest industry in the State at that time. Big, private enterprise institutions are cutting There is nothing in favour of the policy that the down on staff. They have to compete with people Government and the Minister are trying to follow. who are becoming more competitive. The Minister has been to these meetings; he has Our big problem is lack of population, long dis- had his officers there and they have copped it. tances, and shortage of tonnage. It is not necess- They have put up a wasted battle against over- arily the Fault of Westrail; it has happened in whelming odds, but the figures they have given other States of Australia. have been shot down as being incorrect time after time. I raised the subject of drainage last year. The residents of a particular area in Albany district Several members interjected. were being charged a drainage rate, but this drain- Hon. TOM KNIGHT: OD Transport is private age area was on the opposite side of the hill, and enterprise; Westrail picks up the money from the there was no possible way for any of the rain Governent. falling in that area to get to the drainage system in 498 498[COUNCIL] question. I wrote to the Minister who explained I turn now to drainage rates as they affect the situation to me. it was agreed there was doubt farmers. The classifications which are used are whether a particular section could be drained into "totally beneficial", "partially benieficial", or "in this particular reserve. Because of the cost of the the area of". In one case an elector has a farm establishment of a drainage reserve, people were which is being treated as "beneficial", not "totally expected to pay drainage rates as they were beneficial". Part of his farm is on a hill and part is gaining benefit from it. on the flat. In the front of his farm is a flat which runs down to a railway line. It has no culvert; it is I have maps dating back to the early 1850s and built up, and there is a man-made dam. Some 30 they show a natural creek in that particular area. metres away from the railway line there is a road As a child I lived on a farm through which the which is also built up and which creates a second creek ran. A drag line was taken down to deepen man-made dam. and widen the creek. As it was a natural water- way, it was draining a particular area. I do not see Apart from a brief period in the summer, how we can charge for something which was throughout the year this farmer's front paddocks already there doing a job just because somebody are under water. He is being charged a drainage cleaned out some sludge. rate, because it is maintained that, as a result of groundwater movement and the movement of the Let us turn to the area on the other side of the water table, the water is going into Lake Powell hill. Another area in Mt. Lockyer faces straight which is situated across the road from his prop- into the valley. When the housing area was estab- ery. Yet he is being charged a drainage rate. lished, it ran directly through the superphosphate It is little wonder we receive complaints when works. None of the people has paid a drainage we examine the sorts of things we do to people. rate, but the people half-a-mile back beyond the hill where it runs into the Yakymia Creek area are Last year a group of people in Lake King in my paying a drainage rate to the Government,' a electorate applied for a tavern licence. Lake King drainage rate which should be paid to the shire. is 50 miles east of Newdegate, where the railway line I was just talking about in relation to grain The argument seems to be that because a drag freight ends its run. Within five kilornetres of that, line was used it is a man-made watercourse, and it is the immediate area of Lake King, an area in is servicing an area and building up its pro- which 82 people reside. In the surrounding area of ductivity. I do not know what sort of productivity 40 kilornctrcs, 670 people reside. the residents of Mt. Lockyer are achieving, be- The application for a tavern licence was not cause it is a residential area! agreed to. The people who operate the liquor li- As my constituent has said, if an area is subject cence from the little store at Lake King said the to a drainage rate, and the residents of that area granting of the tavern licence would not affect are benefiting from it, why is a rate not struck for their business. That tavern was to be a community the whole town? The rates paid to the shire coun- project. It would have been set up on a business cils could be paid to the Government department basis and it would have provided for recreation, if that is the way the Government wants it. The social activity, and gatherings in a Very remote Minister said that it is not the responsibility of the area of our State. town or shire councils because the Government That application was knocked back during the maintains and establishes the drain. I disagree period that a moratorium was imposed on the issu- with that point. ing of new licences by the present Government. However, no-one paid back those involved for the I have here four pages of reasons establishing cost of research, legal fees, plans and specifi- that it is a natural watercourse and not a man- cations, and back-up involved in the application. made course, and why rules and regulations were Those sorts of costs run into thousands of dollars. laid down by the Minister and his department. Bear in mind that Bunbury has a drainage system The architectural fees involved are usually to drain what was a flooded plain area and no approximately 10 per cent of the estimated cost. drainage rates are charged for that service. Rates The tavern would probably have cost $150 000; were charged until the present Government was therefore, architectural fees would amount to elected, but a promise was made prior to the elec- $15 000. It was not the architect's fault or the tion that that would cease. In Albany, where there client's fault that the application was not agreed is a natural watercourse, the residents pay drain- to. Thus the plans are still useable, and the client age rates, but they do not do so in Bunbury, where must pay the fee. the area was a flood-plain. I want to know why If structural details are required, they are that has occurred. provided for a further 2.5 per cent to cover the [Wednesday, 8 August 1984]49 499 cost of the engineer's fee for working them out, for providing a sketch plan, proposal, or written sub- the computations of steel beams and rafters, and mission to a court saying, "We are thinking of whatever else may be required. That amounts to establishing a tavern at Lake King. There are no another $3 700. Therefore, the fees in this case objections. The shire and the people support it and would have amounted to 12.5 per cent of the cost the money is available". Once approval in prin- of the tavern. Disregarding the solicitor's fees- ciple has been given, the applicants know that, if and they are certainly not at give-away prices they spend the money, they will obtain the reward. these days-the costs involved in this application This sort of argument has been advanced by amounted to almost $20 000. people in Perth for many years and it is time we We must then add the costs of the people who started thinking about doing something to al- put the proposal together as an entrepreneurial leviate the costs to which people who make such exercise. No-one pays back that amount when an applications are subjected, because that money application is not approved. will not be circulated in that area for the benefit of I maintain that tavern licence should be the people. It is lost for all time. granted. We should be looking at ways and means to make these applications easier and less costly. If House The Select Committee set up in the lower an application of this nature is knocked back, let to examine that matter looked at the possibility of that happen based on a piece of paper which sets on the approval of li- extending the moratorium out the plans, rather than on a ream of plans, five years. cences for liquor outlets for the next structural computations, entrepreneurial detail, The people to whom I have referred at Lake King and surveys carried out by the shire and different are out of pocket to the tune of $25 000 to people to prove such an application should be $30 000. They are farmers and small business granted. people in the area. They were told they should apply to the Supreme Court. If I remember cor- I turn now to rye grass toxicity. Over the years I rectly, it costs in excess of $2 000 to have a Su- have raised this subject on a number of occasions, but the problem is getting worse. In the area preme Court application opened. On top of that,' they where it is prevalent, it is the greatest single stock must pay their solicitor and architect to ex- plain the situation. They could end up with a bill killer known in Australia. The problem is spread- for $50 000 and still not have a licence to establish ing. The further it spreads over the State, the a tavern at Lake King. greater the problem. The number of outbreaks in the 1983-84 season was 110 on 82 new properties. A tavern at Lake King would not interfere with The number of stock deaths reported in that anyone's drinking habits; it would not interfere period was 2493 sheep and 12 cattle. It may be with any other hotel, tavern, or drinking place. said those figures are not high when compared Lake King is 50 miles east of Newdegate and 60 with the figures in respect of other diseases which miles north of Ravensthorpe. This tavern would be kill animals throughout Western Australia. How- rather like a country club and would provide the ever, as soon as this problem is experienced State- facilities which would enable people prepared to wide, it will be the single biggest killer of stock in pay for them to enjoy themselves. Patronage may Western Australia. also come from passing travellers and that would assist in paying off the debt. This tavern would Money for research into this problem has not improve the lifestyles of the people in the area and been readily forthcoming and the Government they have just as much right to a tavern as do the should look closely at this disease, because it is people in Perth. spreading. The new shires which have been affec- ted are Woodanilling. Narrogin, Kellerberrin, and The location chosen for this tavern is alongside Moora. the golf course, the ambulance hall, and the little The figures I have are as follows- town hall. The site lends itself to approval and there were no objections or arguments against it; only I I reported outbreaks have occurred yet the licensing tribunal refused the application. since the end of November, eight in December, two in January and one in I am very disappointed about that refusal, February. firstly, because the tavern was so badly needed and, secondly, because these people are out of as the ratio of new outbreaks reported to old pocket. We should look at the situation that, if is almost 3:1 it suggests that farmers who people apply to establish an industry, a business, have had the problem before may not be or whatever, where costs are involved they should reporting outbreaks. not have to provide all the information initially. It is starting to reach dangerous proportions. I They should be able to make an application by would like the Minister for Agriculture to be given 500 500[COUNCIL] the support of his other ministerial colleagues be- That the Bill be now read a second time. cause it is a matter of money. At present, the Juries Act 1957 exempts from jury Three leading WA rural companies have service a large number of specified occupations. In donated $83 000 to boost research into the pas- addition, section 6(2) provides for the Governor, toral disease that has killed 30 000 sheep and 400 by proclamation, to exempt specified classes of cattle over the last 10 years. People in the metro- persons who are in the service of the State, where politan area are not aware that this is happening, such exemption is necessary to prevent serious in- but I have seen it on the farms. I have seen the convenience to the public. paralysis it creates and the devastating effect it Over the years, this power has been exercised in has on stock. I have seen whole paddocks full of a rather haphazard way. By 1977, there were very stock which have been bulldozed into heaps on many inconsistencies and anomalies sonmc of the affected farms. in the system and the question of exemption from jury service The firms concerned were CSBP, Farmers Lim- was then referred to the Law Reform Com- ited, Elders West, and Town & Country WA. mission. The commission reported in June Those firms donated $83 000 for something which 1980-project No. 71 -and the Bill is based on its I believe is the responsibility of the Department of recommendations. Agriculture and the State Government. I would like more funding to be made available to ensure The commission recommended that the present that this matter is properly and deeply researched system of exemption be replaced by categories of because the further the disease spreads, the faster "ineligibility" and entitlements to "excusal as of it spreads. It is presently just north of Albany in right". This is similar to the system which the Gnowangerup area right up to Moora; it goes operates in the United Kingdom, in New South from east of Perth right out into the north-eastern Wales, and in Victoria. Clause 6 of the Bill im- wheatbelt areas, and it is approaching dangerous plements this recommendation. proportions that we can no longer afford. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Hon. John I hope the Minister for Agriculture will take up Williams): Hansard is having great difficulty the matter quickly and approve more finance par- hearing the Attorney General because of mem- ticularly to look into this disease as it will be to the bers' audible conversations. detriment of this State if it is allowed to continue. I could have raised a few other minor matters, Hon. J. M. BERINSON: The commission also but my next topic I could probably raise at recommended that the discriminatory right, which another stage, because I have spoken for a fair allows a woman-but not a man-to cancel her while. It is something that as time- liability for jury service, be abolished, together Hon. J. M. Berinson: We would really like to be with the right of a woman to be excused from able to digest what you have said so far. attendance at a particular trial on special grounds which apply only to women. Consistent with the Hon. TOM KNIGHT: Good. I will give the Government's policies in respect of discrimination, House another burst at a later stage. With those it is proposed to implement these few words, I conclude my remarks. recommendations. I support the motion. At present, enrolment as a voter for the Debate adjourned, on motion by Hon. V. J. Legislative Assembly renders a person liable to Ferry. serve as a juror. That general position is not affected by this Bill. BILLS (4): RETURNED Justices What the Bill does provide is that the following Amendment Bill.' persons will not be eligible to serve as jurors- 2. Parole Orders (Transfer) Bill. 3. Public Trustee Amendment Bill. (a) Those listed in part I of the second 4. Legal Practitioners Amendment Bill. schedule-Judges and others acting in a Bills returned from thc Asscmbly without judicial capacity, legal practitioners, anmendm~ent. members of Parliament, and others involved in the administration of justice, JURIES AMENDMENT BILL including policemen, some Crown Law officers, and prison officers; Second Reading HON. J. M. BERINSON (North Central (b) those aged 65 years and over. Metropolitan-Attorney General) [5.04 p.m.]: I It is also provided that the following persons will move- not be qualified to serve as jurors- [Wednesday, 8 August 1984]10 501

(a) persons who have been convicted of (c) any family relationship or serious criminal offences, and who have acquaintanceship with those conducting received no pardon; or involved in the trial; (b) persons who do not understand the (d) any other reason why there may be bias English language; or likelihood of bias. (c) persons who, because of infirmity of These new provisions reflect the recommendations mind or body, including defective of the commission. hearing, are incapable of discharging the The remainder of the Bill is concerned with duty of a juror. incidental matters, including the mechanics of It is proposed that the following persons be preparing the jury lists, the summoning of those excused from serving as jurors- from whom the jury is to be selected, and the selection of those who are to serve on the (a) as of right, those persons mentioned in particular jury. part 11 of the second schedule-persons employed in emergency services, doctors I commend the Bill to the House. and other professionals whose work is in Debate adjourned, on motion by Hon. Margaret tending to people's health, those fully McAleer. committed to the propagation of religion, pregnant women, and persons having the BREAD AMENDMENT BILL full-time care of children or invalids; Second Reading (b) those who can persuade the court, a HON. D. K. DANS (South Metropolitan- judge, or a summoning officer that they Leader of the House) [5.10 p.m.]: I move- have good cause, pursuant to the third That the Bill be now read a second time. schedule of the Bill, to be excused on the This Bill is introduced to amend the metropolitan grounds of illness, undue hardship, and country baking hours prescribed in the Bread recent jury service, or circumstances of Act 1982, and to provide extended baking hours sufficient weight, importance, or immediately prior to public holidays. urgency. The hours prescribed in the current Act permit The Bill contains a new provision-clause 20-- baking within a 45-kilometre radius of the Perth which provides that every person summoned to General Post Office, between one minute past serve as a juror shall receive a notice containing midnight on a Monday morning and 6.00 p.m. on information as to the grounds on which a person that day, between 2.00 am. and 6.00 p.m. on any may be excused. The notice will also inform the Tuesday or Wednesday, and from one minute past person summoned as to how ineligibility or midnight on a Thursday morning until 12 noon on disqualification is to be established, should that be the succeeding Saturday. Metropolitan baking is necessary. Where ineligibility or disqualification is prohibited after noon on Saturdays, and on established, the sheriff will issue a certificate to Sundays. that effcct-clause 21-in the same way that a certificate of permanent exemption is issued under Beyond the 45-kilometre radius, country baking existing section 34A(2). Clause 25 provides that is unrestricted between one minute past midnight certificates which have already been issued will on a Monday morning and 12 noon on the succeeding Saturday. Country baking continue in effect, and that the persons holding is also those certificates will not be liable to serve as prohibited after noon Saturdays, but is permitted jurors. between 5.00 am, and 12 noon on Sundays. The bread industry's experience of the baking Another new provision is found in proposed hours prescribed in the Act led to representations section 348-clause 22. This requires the from metropolitan bakers, who maintained that summoning officer to explain to those who have the starts at 2.00 a-rn- on Tuesdays and appeared in answer to their summonses that they Wednesdays, and one minute past midnight on must disclose to him, or to the court, the existence Thursday mornings, were too restrictive. of any of the factors referred to in the fourth schedule, namly- After consultation with employer and employee representatives, I extended metropolitan hours by (a) any incapacity by reason of infirmity of permitting baking from one minute past midnight mind or body that may affect the on Tuesday and Wednesday mornings, in lieu of discharge of the duty of ajuror; 2.00 a.m. on those mornings, and from 10.00 p.m. (b) lack of understanding of the English on Wednesdays in lieu of one minute past mid- language; night on Thursday mornings. 502 502[COUNCIL]

Although there was not complete unanimity on the Pilbara Region of Western the extended hours, they have been in force under Australia; a ministerial order since I January 1984, without affirm its view that the legislation in- causing any major conflict in the industry. The fringes the constitutional responsibility metropolitan hours prescribed in the Act, as of the State and duplicates powerful varied by that order, are the metropolitan hours State legislation for the protection of proposed by this Bill. Aboriginal sacred sites, Earlier this year, the Country Bakers' Associ- and ation made representations to me regarding country baking hours. After consultation with that acknowledge, with approval, the association, I agreed to include in this Bill an reported rejection of Aboriginal land amendment to align country baking hours from claims to the Harding River Dam area, Monday to Saturday with those operative in the and requests the Commonwealth Parliament metropolitan area since I January 1984. and Government to: The provision allowing Sunday baking between (a) express its full support for the 5.00 am. and 12.00 noon will be retained. The completion of the construction of alignment of baking hours in this manner should the Harding River Darm in the serve to reduce conflict between metropolitan and Pilbara Region Of Western country bakers. Australia, to facilitate the security For many years, ministerial orders have issued, of water supply in this area so im- on request, and as a matter of course, to extend portant to the local population and baking hours on the day immediately preceding a the iron export industry, public holiday. These extensions permit bakers to and meet the additional demand for fresh bread on that day. (b) repeal the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders Heritage (Interim The Bill will amend the Act to allow baking to Protection) Act. commence two hours earlier on the day preceding a public holiday, where that public holiday falls on I thank the Government for allowing the Oppo- a Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday. sition to introduce this motion without notice. We were unable to give notice yesterday because of For example, where a public holiday falls on a the nature of the sitting. I thank the Government Tuesday, baking will be permitted from 10.00 for allowing us to debate the motion today. p.m. on the preceding Sunday, in lieu of one min- ute past midnight on the preceding Monday morn- The purpose of this motion is to seek the support ing, without the necessity for a ministerial order. of this House for a bipartisan approach to the take action in re- Baking hours on the baking days preceding Commonwealth Government to spect of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders Mondays and Fridays do not require any change, as they are already extended. Heritage (interim Protection) Act. A similar mo- tion has been or will be moved in the Legislative I commend the Bill to the House. Assembly, and the Opposition hopes the Govern- Debate adjourned, on motion by Hon. G. E. ment will support this attempt to rid the nation of Masters (Leader of the Opposition). this legislation which is clearly unacceptable to the vast majority of Australians. ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS: LAND RIGHTS In putting forward this suggestion for a biparti- Uniform Legislation: Motion san approach, I am heartened by remarks made by HON. N. F. MOORE (Lower North) [5.13 Hon. Des Dans when he spoke in this House on 26 p.m.]: I move, without notice- July 1983. He is recorded on page 256 of Hansard That the Parliament of Western as follows- Australia- Sensible proposals put forward in a genuine express to the Commonwealth Parlia- spirit will never be rejected by this Govern- ment and Government its grave concern ment simply because they came from the at the possibility of applying Federal other side of the House. legislation known as the Aboriginal and I am sure Hon. Des Dans Will regard this motion Torres Strait Islanders Heritage as a sensible proposal by the Opposition for a (interim Protection) Act to restrict, de- bipartisan approach to the Commonwealth to re- lay or prevent the completion of con- quest that it support the continued development of struction of the Harding River Dam in the Harding River Dam and that it repeal the [Wednesday, 8 August 1984]50 503 obnoxious Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders His signature would be all that would be Heritage (interim Protection) Act. needed to prevent the occupation, use and I do not propose to go through the details of development of an area for as long as he saw that Act. Most members are well aware of the fit-and without compensation. provisions of that legislation, the areas in which it That is the view of the editor of The Australian. is particularly harsh, and the way in which it can Those two editors indicate quite clearly that oppo- be utilised to tic up development projects wherever sition to this legislation exists right across the the Minister for Aboriginal Affairs in the Federal community. Parliament so deems. I will not go through the Naturally the Opposition parties at both State reasons we regard the legislation as obnoxious. I and Federal level made known their opposition to wish to canvass some of the issues surrounding the the legislation in a very vigorous way. The Leader introduction of the legislation and action taken of the Federal Liberal Party (Mr Andrew Pea- subsequent to its becoming an Act of Parliament. cock) has given a clear undertaking that a future The legislation was forced through the Federal Liberal Government will repeal this legislation the Parliament. Extensive use was made of the moment it is returned to office. guillotine to enable the legislation to go through When one considers who else opposed the legis- with little debate. The Opposition in the Federal lation, one realises that initially the State Govern- Parliament opposed the legislation at every point. ment in Western Australia did so, in spite of the It was not only the Federal Opposition which fact that the Federal Labor Party's platform binds opposed the legislation. From the moment the the Labor Party at State and Federal level to a Federal Minister announced his intention to intro- particular course of action. I want to quote the duce the Bill, he was criticised from all angles by platform which states under the heading "Sacred people right across the spectrum of the Australian sites"- community. In particular, opposition came from Develop in cooperation with the states and the mining and agricultural industries because territories, effective Aboriginal heritage legis- they reared most from implementation of the lat ion. legislation. That is the Labor Party's platform on the question It was not only industry groups which opposed of sacred sites legislation. Yet, in spite of that the legislation. They were supported by editorials platform, the State Government was not even in a number of newspapers, and I wish to quote a consulte on this legislation. It did not even know couple because they indicate that the broader it was coming. The platform clearly states that it community, through the editorials of at least those is necessary for there to be consultation with the two newspapers, opposed the concept of the legis- State Governments in relation to this legislation. lation. On 30 May 1984, The West Australian The West Australian of 30 April 1984, under the said in an editorial under the heading "sites heading, "Heritage Law Takes WA by Surprise" law"- states- Yet the Government, in the face of mount- Proposed Federal legislation to protect Ab- ing protests that the legislation is badly original sacred sites had taken the Govern- drafted, draconian, ill-considered and far too ment by surprise, the State Minister respon- sweeping, is determined to push ahead. Its sible for Aborigines, Mr Wilson, said yester- Bill, which would give vast powers to the day. Minister and all but disregard the rights of He said he had heard about the legislation the States, to say nothing of individual land- only a week ago and it had not been drafted so sensitive a subject. owners, is ill-suited to in consulation with the Burke government. That is the point of view of the Editor of The West Not only has Mr Holding ignored the party's plat- Australian. The Editor of The Australian on 29 form in respect of consultation but he has also not May 1984, in an editorial headed "flanger in wide even talked or advised the State Minister with powers of new land rights Bill", stated- special responsibility for Aboriginal Affairs what As an exercise in omnipotence, the Abor- he intended doing. He was introducing legislation iginal and Torres Strait Islander Heritage which one editor regarded as draconian without so (interim Protection) Bill 1984 is a remark- much as discussing it or advising the State Minis- able document. If passed by Federal Parlia- ter that he was going to do it. Clearly Mr Wilson ment it will provide the Minister for Aborigi- was surprised. To give him credit, his initial re- nal Affairs with such powers of intervention sponse was that he was opposed to the legislation. that he could dictate the future of virtually IHowever. that did not pay much for Mr Hlawke's any land or waterway in the country. ideas for consensus. I-e said that his Government 504 504[COUJNCIL] would do things by consensus. In other words, he Mr Wilson said that Mr Holding's remarks said that his Government would co-operate with about the inquiry were welcome. his colleagues. He even suggested that the Govern- "We are quite reassured that the Common- ment might co-operate with its enemies. wealth now is going to fully respect that in- Mr Wilson, in a sensible way, advised the Fed- quiry," Mr Wilson said. eral Government that the State Labor Party was opposed to some aspects of the legislation. It is With all that backslapping between the State interesting also that a meeting of the State Labor Minister and the Federal Minister, it is a bit Party Caucus was held to discuss the issue. That strange that the State Caucus found it necessary meeting was widely reported in an edition of The to pass such a motion seeking or requesting the Australianof 2 June which reported that the State withdrawal of a Federal Bill. Labor Party Caucus had passed a motion which With all the opposition to the Bill from the was critical of the Federal Labor Party's decision mining industry, the farming industry, editorials and called for its withdrawal. I guess common- in major newspapers, the State Opposition, and sense prevailed in the State Labor Party. the State Labor Government, it is surprising that Hon. Tom Stephens: There is always a lot of the Federal Minister decided to continue with it. I that. have spent some time trying to work out why he persisted in introducing this legislation and having Hon. N. F. MOORE: Perhaps there was on this it passed through Federal Parliament. Obviously occasion. he was obliged, as are all Labor Party members of Hon. Peter Dowding: You don't sound too bi- Parliament, to follow his party's platform. I partisan to me. quoted the party's platform earlier. It said that the Hon. N. F. MOORE: I said comnmonsense Federal Government would introduce legislation prevailed for a change. I did not say that we only after consultation with the States. Perhaps he should have a bipartisan approach on every oc- fell under the spell of all the advisers that he has in casion because on many occasions we do not Canberra. If'anybody in this place does not know agree. I am looking forward to seeing how that is what the advisers think, he should read a docu- achieved. ment entitled "A Discussion Paper on Land Hon. Peter Dowding: Perhaps you should be Rights" put out by the NAC. That paper was produced by a group of lawyers working more conciliatory. at the behest of Mr Holding to consider land rights. The Hon. N. F. MOORE: I am saying that he did a discussion paper clearly indicated to me the sort of good job. I am saying also that Mr Holding did influence being exerted on the Minister for Abor- not tell the Minister about this matter. As I under- iginal Affairs. When one reads that paper one can stand it, the Caucus vote was taken after Mr see why the gentleman persisted with the legis- Holding had visited Western Australia and had lation. had discussions with the State Minister. I may be wrong about that. However, I have a sneaking One can see also, after reading the second read- suspicion, after looking at the chain of events, that ing speech made by the Minister in Federal Par- Mr Holding visited Western Australia and talked liament, that he is contemptuous of the farming with Mr Wilson. and after that visit, there was and mining industries. Maybe that was his reason still a nced for this Caucus resolution rcquesting for persisting with the Bill. the withdrawal of the legislation. Another suggestion which could be pretty close It is interesting to note that, when Mr Holding to the truth relates to Mr Holding's oft-quoted came to Western Australia, he and Mr Wilson argument that the legislation was necessary for seemed to be the best of friends. I will quote from the Commonwealth to be involved in any future The West Australian of 23 April because it gives Noonkanbah-type situations. In statements he an indication that things were not quite as bad as said constantly that the Federal Government they seemed. The newspaper stated- needed to have power with respect to sacred sites so that, if another Noonkanbab situation arises, it And Mr Wilson said that the State could use its Federal power. Government's understanding with the Com- monwealth was that the Federal legislation We all know, of course, because we have was not directed at WA. debated the subject of Noonkanbab at length, that WA the whole issue was so much hogwash. It was one legislation on sacred sites was ad- equate to cover any problems. Any review of of the greatest hoaxes in the history of this State. the legislation was among the Seaman in- Mr Holding continues to perpetrate the myth quiry's terms of reference. that in some way sacred sites were desecrated at [Wednesday, 8 August 1984]10 505

Noonkanbah to justify mare power being given to the pudding. A Federal Minister, typical of Feder- the Federal Government. al Labor politicians, has taken a step which is Hon. Peter Dowding: Only people with their designed to give him more power and he is saying heads in the sand think it was hogwash. You are that we must accept the situation even though the on your own in that. State Government has adequate powers to do what is necessary in respect of sacred sites. Hon. N. F. MOORE: I can assure the member that I am not. I can also assure him that when the Hon. Peter Dowding: It was hogwash then, and history of Noonkanbah is written- it still is. Hon. Peter Dowding: Are you going to get the Hon. N. F. MOORE: I will listen to the mem- League of Rights to write it for you? What about ber's speech with interest. I suggest that Mr your friend, Mr McDonald? Dowding should take my comments seriously be- Hon. N. F. MOORE: He is not a friend of cause occasionally what one predicts does come mine. true. Hon. Peter Dowding: You carted him around Another reason that the Federal Minister was in your electorate. a hurry to introduce legislation was the proximity Hon. N. F. MOORE: I did not. The history of to the ALP National Conference. He felt it was Noonkanbah will be written by historians and the necessary to appease Aboriginal activists and to story will come out that it was a hoax of giant indicate that the Government was not going soft proportions. It was perpetrated by the mi srep- on the question of land rights and on other Abor- resentation of the issue by many people in the iginal issues. In a sense it could be seen as a trade- Press. That is a fact of life. off to those people who were expecting uniform land rights before now. Mr Holding has fobbed off When researching this subject I looked at some the question of Aboriginal land rights which will of the previous debate on the issue of Noonkanbah not be introduced until after the next Federal elec- Station. I wondered whether the Federal Minister tion, assuming we have another Hawke Govern- was seeking to increase his powers with this legis- ment. lation. It is interesting to note that when we debated the Noonkanbah issue I made a speech Hon. Peter Dowding: I do not think anyone has which was quoted by Hon. Peter Dowding. I want any doubt about that, even your sunlamp kid. to quote here what I said in a previous speech. It Hon. N. F. MOORE: Things change very appeared in Hansard on page 1362 of 1980. Hon. quickly in politics. It is interesting to note that the Peter Dowding said that I had said- Hawke Government and its Federal Minister for I am suggesting their involvement in the Aboriginal Affairs (Mr Holding), have quickly Noonkanhah issue is an essential ingredient recognised the political consequences of not in the whole process of defining a new strat- introducing national land rights legislation before egy for the Labor movement. Noonkanbah is the premature election which, presumably, will be just a stepping-stone towards greater central- held sometime this year or early next year. Mr isation of power in Australia. Holding has probably now suggested to the acti- Four years ago I said that Noonkanbah was part vists who are getting impatient that he will give of this grab for power by the centralists in them this interim heritage legislation to keep them Canberra. The Minister has brought forward happy until he introduces uniform national land legislation which is clearly a grab for power in an rights legislation after the next election. I refer to area that has been subject to State responsibility. an article which appeared in The Australian on I Mr Dowding's comment at that time was- June 1984 and in which comments made by Mr Holding are as follows- I do not think anyone with any knowledge of contemporary politics could take any He believed that current debate on the serious notice of those remarks, or could take issue and successful implementation of the the Hon. Norman Moore seriously. heritage legislation would be an important forerunner to planned national land rights Hon. Peter Dowding: That is an accurate legislation next year. statement of the situation now also. Hon. N. F. MOORE: It is clearly a very "What it has done, if nothing else, is prophetic statement from me that Noonkanbah produce some of the more extreme was part of the power grab by the Canberra cen- statements, if not to say passions, with which tralists. It has now come home to roost even many people in Australia regard Aboriginal though Mr Dowding said that my comments could aspirations," he said not be taken seriously. Here we have the proof of The following quote is the most fascinating- 506 506[COUNCIL]

"I believe that when this legislation goes must be stopped. The only reason the Federal through it will help establish a climate to Government backed off was that work had overcome many unneccesary fears sought to proceeded too far. be raised in the community on a false basis." This motion seeks to draw to the attention of the It is incredible that Mr Holding believes that the Federal Government the fact that this Parliament introduction of this legislation will help to estab- will not tolerate the use of such legislation to pre- lish a climate of consensus and that it will get rid vent development in this State. It calls on the of fears in the community. The first occurrence Federal Government to express its support for the after the legislation was passed was a claim for the builiding of the dam which is so essential for the Harding River Dam area. So much for quietening future development of the Pilbara region, mainly the rears of the people of Western Australia. the coastal area. Hon. Peter Dowding: What has happened to the The motion also states that this Parliament be- claim? lieves it has constitutional responsibility for the Hon. N. F. MOORE: I will answer the Minister protection of sacred sites and that the Federal in just a moment. A claim that could not have legislation is superfluous and unnecessary. It asks been made without this legislation has been made the Parliament to affirm its view that the legis- for the Harding River Dam area. lation infringes the constitutional responsibility of Hon. Peter Dowding: Have you not been told the State and duplicates powerful State legislation what happened? for the protection of Aboriginal sacred sites. Hon. N. F. MOORE: We agree in the motion In 1972, the Tonkin Government enacted the that the Federal Government has decided not to Aboriginal Heritage Bill and it believed the State go ahead with the claim. had constitutional power and responsiblity to in- troduce legislation to protect sacred sites in West- Several members interjected. ern Australia. The Federal Government is now The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Hon. D. J. saying that the State legislation is not acceptable Wordsworth): Order! Order! and that it must pass legislation for us. Hon. N. F. MOORE: Mr Holding believed that I refer to the 1967 referendum regarding Abor- legislation such as this would quell the fears of the iginal affairs. It is clear that some people have a community. H-e is running around calling everyone very unnecessary and uncomplicated way of look- opposed to him a racist. He could not think of ing at the results of that referendum. If one looks anything else to say, as the magnificent cartoon in at the case put for "Yes" votes it becomes clear The Australian indicated. that the intention was not to give a carte blanche I know that the request was denied and I will delegating all powers relating to Aborigines to the deal with that in a moment. However, if there Commonwealth. were no such legislation, there would be no claim [ will quote from the "Yes" case as put in 1967. in the first place. The episode surrounding this It says this- issue has exacerbated people's fears regarding sacred sites and land rights. Regardless of what It will make it possible for the Common- has happened since the claim was made, the fact wealth Parliament to make special laws for remains and is included in the wording of the the people of the Aboriginal race, wherever motion that under this legislation work at the dam they may live, if the Parliament considers it could have been stopped. Senator Ryan, the Act- necessary. ing Federal Minister for Aboriginal Affairs, who That is unexceptional. It goes on- announced the Federal Cabinet decision on this matter, said that Cabinet agreed with the State This would not mean that the States would Government and would not declare sacred sites in automatically lose their existing powers. the area under the Act simply because the work What is intended is that the National Parlia- had gone too far. ment would make laws, if it thought fit, relat- It had nothing to do with the question of ing to Aboriginals-as it can about many whether there was a sacred site. She said she could other matters on which the States also have power to legislate. The hardly stop the dam because it was almost Commonwealth object will be to co-operate with the States to ensure completed. I ask the rhetorical question: What if that together we act in the best interests of the dam had just commenced and it had been the Aboriginal people of Australia. possible to stop work? Would Senator Ryan have given the same answer? I suggest that she would The intention was a co-operative move for both not have and that she would have said the work the Federal and State Parliaments to be able to [Wednesday, 8 August 1984]57 507 make laws for the betterment of the Aboriginal tors in Canberra, not one word in opposition. Yet people. ostensibly we are told that the State Government In 1972, the Tonkin Government introduced was opposed to the Bill. and bad passed the Western Australian Aborigi- It is interesting that the Labor Party can have nal Heritage Act, and that is the Act which we this sort of divergence of opinion, ranging from argue today is the powerful legislation which will complete support to complete opposition. It is also protect sacred sites in this State. Yet in his second unusual, and perhaps surprising, that this should reading speech, the Federal Minister (Mr Hold- occur in the Labor Party. ing) said- Hon. Peter Dowding: You are always accusing It is the case that the Commonwealth us of being totally controlled. Government takes the firm view that it has a Hon. N. F. MOORE: That is why I am sur- primary constitutional responsibility in the prised and find it rather interesting. That is why I field of Aboriginal affairs. Despite some question the Government's motives. I know how progress in individual States, none is in a tight-knit are members of the Labor Party and position which satisfies completely our policy how they are bound by their Federal platform. I objectives. know how they must do what they are told. That is He quite clearly has decided that any laws why I cannot understand this action by the State's pertaining to Aboriginal affairs which do not come Labor Senators in Canberra, some of whom the up to his expectations or are not within his policy people of the State have rarely heard of, and I parameters are not acceptable, and that he will have heard of some of them only occasionally. use the Commonwealth's so-called constitutional They are certainly not household names here. For powers to introduce Commonwealth legislation. instance, Senator McIntosh is known to only a This is what we have with this heritage legislation. tiny percentage of the population. I think he is a The attitude of the State Government in this member of the left, the centre left, or total whole sorry story of the Harding River Dam is left-whatever. He is number one on the Labor interesting, to say the least. When Mr Holding Party's Senate ticket, so he has no problem about announced the legislation, the State Government being elected to represent Western Australia be- said it had not heard of it, and earlier I quoted cause he has his numbers signed up in the ALP's from Press reports indicating that Mr Wilson said halls of power. he had not heard about it and had not been A rather surprising and interesting situation oc- consulted. He rightly made the point that he felt curred at the same time, in that the most out- the State legislation was adequate, and he was spoken Western Australian Labor member of the referring to the Tonkcin Labor Government's 1972 Federal Parliament on the subject of land rights heritage legislation. and sacred sites was absent at the time the Bill He then convinced the Federal Minister to was debated. I refer to the Federal member for make a public statement to try to keep everyone Kalgoorlie (Mr Graham Campbell) who, happy and to have them believe that the Common- strangely enough, was in London at the time of the wealth legislation was not really meant for West- debate, even though he had come out publicly ern Australia at all. It was an attempt to indicate some weeks earlier and his remarks had been that the Federal Minister was quite happy with printed in The Bulletin. It was a very big article in the Western Australian legislation and that his which he was reported as criticising very strongly legislation was directed at places like Queensland his Labor colleagues over land rights. and other States that did not please him. The Hon. P. I-1. Lockycr; Thai was his -lifejacket" Federal Minister made that statement when he speech. It was made for his survival. visited Perth. Hon. N. F. MOORE: It was his first trip over- After that the State Government was strangely seas. Apparently there was an overseas trip going quiet on the whole issue. If members were to go for some Federal Labor member of Parliament, through the Press cuttings of that time and read and although Mr Campbell had never been in what was said during the period when the legis- contention for an overseas trip before, on this oc- lation was going through the Federal Parliament, casion he was considered for it. Furthermore, he they would find that the State Government said was quite happy to remain overseas while the de- very little. bate took place in Canberra. I have often agreed It was interesting for people who were observing with what he has said on the subject of land-rights this whole process to note that the Labor senators and I know he has found it difficult to get up in from Western Australia supported the legislation the House to support this interim protection legis- in the Senate-not one bleat from the Labor sena- lation. 508 508[COUNCIL]

One could presume that once the Bill had gone Hon. Peter Dowding: No, you are just paranoid, through the Federal Parliament, the State like Mr MacDonald, your friend in the League or Government hoped the whole question would go Rights. away and would give it no trouble. The land rights Hon. N. F. MOORE: What better way for the issue had become a hot potato and it wished that State Government to gain some of its lost ground issue would go away because it did not want because of its stance on land rights than by people to be confused over the two issues. coming out very heavily against these extraordi- We have since experienced claims for sacred nary sacred site claims? sites at the Harding River dam. It would seem Hon. Peter Dowding: So this is the plus for us? that when the claims were first made the State Hon. N. F. MOORE: Here we are with an Government was a bit embarrassed because it extraordinary claim for sacred sites which could highlighted this whole issue of sacred sites and not possibly be accepted because the dam is land rights. The State Government had very little almost finished. We have the State Government to say on the subject, claiming that it was wai ting put in a position where it can come out publicly for the Seaman inquiry's report. Presumably it and forcefully saying, "We have to man thebarri- was a bit embarrassed by this problem surfacing cades and keep the Feds out. We have to get rid of in this State. the legislation because it will stop the development Hon. Peter Dowding: What do you mean of the dam". It could say all this knowing that the "claiming"? Of course we are waiting for it. claims would not be granted, anyway. Hon. N. F. MOORE: I will remove the word There is also the political benefit to be gained "claiming". The State Labor Party is waiting for from a States' right issue, knowing the people of the Seaman inquiry to report so that it will know Western Australia are for States' rights. The what to do about land rights. Obviously the Government can say "We are standing up against Government has no ideas of its own. Is that what that dreadful Federal Government" regardless of the Minister is saying? what political colour it is. Hon. Peter Dowding: Don't be silly. Hon. Fred McKenzie: Who gave them land Hon. N. F. MOORE: The Seaman inquiry is rights in the first place? really just a smokescreen, because the Labor Party Hon. N. F. MOORE: Mr Fraser. has a Federal platform and a State platform, and Hon. Fred McKenzie: Did you stand up then? its recent national conference reaffirmed that Fed- eral platform. The Government is bound to that Hon. N. F. MOORE: Too right! I argued in the Liberal Party about that. I am not saying the platform, and yet is has established an inquiry to Liberal Party had nothing to do with land rights; tell it what to do. The Government is bound to a Federal platform based on the model of land that is not what we are talking about, we are talking rights in the Northern Territory. That is the about sacred sites. Government's platform. The Minister should take Several members interjected. this opportunity to tell the Press that his Govern- The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Hon. D. J. ment is not bound to that platform. Ht should say Wordsworth): Order! it so that the public know. The plattkrm was Hon. N. F. MOORE: I am pleased the Federal affirmed at the national conference of the ALP. Government has rejected the sacred site claim. I yet this Government refuses to admit that it is know the State Government is happy also, because bound to that platform. The Government keeps the claim could have temporarily harmed major talking about the Seaman inquiry, hoping that construction in the Pilbara. The sacred sites issue inquiry will get it off the hook. Is Mr Edwards could have held up that work, regardless of the saying that his Government is not bound to that justification for the claim. It would have been a platform? terrible political situation for the Minister for The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Hon. D. J. Planning, particularly as he represents that area. Wordsworth): Order! The H-on. Norman Moore It would have been terrible for him if the dam will address the Chair. were closed, or construction held up or stopped. Hon. N. F. MOORE: Initially I thought the The Government has its reasons for the decision, State Government would be embarrassed by the but it does not fill me with enthusiasm for future claims over sacred sites at the Harding River. decisions. I am suggesting that this issue may have Then I thought that perhaps it would not be em- beenra hoax. barrassed because it was all a preconceived, care- I remember the days when the subject of the fully staged hoax. Perhaps I have a vivid imagin- Harding River dam was debated in this House at ation. great length. At that time Peter Dowding, as the [Wednesday, 8 August 1984]50 509 member for that area, introduced an urgency mo- but archaeological issues appear to be the tion in which he berated the then Government, not only ones that are. only on the question of sacred sites, but also on the Mr Dowding's comments in respect of the Abor- whole question of the environmental impact of a iginal sacred sites at Harding River and at the site dam at the Harding River site. on which the dam was to be constructed, reflected Hon. P. G. Pendal: I bet he wishes he had closed his attitude to the Aboriginal Heritage Act. He his trap on that! cast aspersions on the way in which the Museum Several members interjected. was given responsibility for this area. We have now been told by the State Government that the Hon. N. F. MOORE: I would like to quote what Aboriginal Heritage Act is quite adequate and Mr Dowding said, and I am quoting his words as that there is no need for it to be changed. This is they leave doubts in my mind as to the sincerity of where some doubt arises as to the sincerity of the in its forceful opposition to the State Government State Government in its posturing on this issue. what happened in respect of the claim for the sacred sites. I can imagine the Government in a Hon. Graham Edwards: There is no doubt gentle tone saying. 'Don't do it, because it will about your sincerity at all. cause us trouble". Mr Bryce was supposed to have Hon. N. F. MOORE: I am sure that Mr indicated to the Commonwealth Government very Dowding, being a member of Cabinet which made strongly the Government's opposition. a decision on this matter, and being a local mem- On 25th August 1982, as shown on page 2573 ber, has important comments to make about this of Hansard, Mr Dowding said- situation. No doubt he will respond when I have It also is an area of great importance to the finished. Yindjibarndi and Ngarluina people of When we consider the forceful way in which Mr Roebourne and some of the smaller language Bryce opposed this matter, it seems the State groups in that area. Their interest in the area Government is trying to regain lost ground in the has been documented fully by the Museum land rights debate. Whether the issue was and vaguely alluded to by Dames & Moore in deliberately contrived-it may be a genuine claim their environmental impact statement. by the ALS- On page 2575 he said further- Hon. Peter Dowding: You ought to reflect on an In relation to Aboriginal people I do not allegation which is absolutely and totally false, accept Dames & Moore adequately consulted and without any justification. You accuse the the people of Roebourne. It simply is not good Government of wasting the public's time, and of enough to drift into an Aboriginal com- stirring up that sort of issue; that is very low inunity, find a couple of old blokes prepared politics and does not lend arguments to your rub- to go for a ride, yarn about things, and then bish statements that this is a bipartisan position. move out, but that is how the report analysis You ought to bite your tongue occasionally. on the Aboriginal attitude was conducted. It Several members interjected. was superficial and did not have proper re- gard for the issues involved in the inquiry. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Hon. D. J. Wordsworth): Order! Hon. P. G. Pendal: Who was saying this? Hon. N. F. MOORE: I am delighted that the Hon. N. F. MOORE; Mr Dowding. He said this Minister has put my mind at rest: It was not in 1982 when moving an urgency motion in this contrived and it was not a hoax claim by the ALS House. He wanted an inquiry as to whether the on behalf of the Aborigines of Roebourne. dam should go ahead. He said further- Hon. Peter Dowding: I said your allegation that As I mentioned, the Government is fond of the Government stirred it up was absolutely and treating Aboriginal issues as archaeological utterly without foundation and your small pea issues and that is why the main instrumen- brain should be able to take account of those facts. tality in relation to Aboriginal affairs under this Government has been the Museum. In Several members interjected. fact, it is only the archaeological issues sur- The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Order! rounding this proposal in respect of Aborigi- nal affairs which have received consideration Hon. N. F. MOORE: I accept the Minister's in the EPA statements. That reinforces my assurance that the Government was not involved, view that live Aboriginal people with live and indeed I am asking whether it was a genuine problems, and religious, social and environ- claim on behalf of the Roebourne Aborigines. mental concerns are not given any attention, Several members interjected. 510 [COUNCIL]

Hon. N. F. MOORE: Mr Dowding is a member land rights debate, Mr Bridge is the person who of the Government which made loud noises about speaks on behalf of the Government regardless of this matter previously. It is interesting that the the fact that he is not a Minister, and Mr Wilson Government's forcefulness on the sacred sites issue has been conspicuous by his absence. bears no relationship to the comments it made Hon. Mark Nevill: What is wrong with Mr when in Opposition. In fact, the quotes of Mr Bridge? Dowding's speech indicate that the ALP was con- cerned about sacred sites in a different way from Hon. N. F. MOORE: Mr Bridge is doing a the way it is concerned now. good job despite the position in which he has been put by the Minister. The highly-paid bleeding While I do not agree with Robert Riley, the heart Minister should be the person who puts for- Chairman of the NAC, I can understand the ward the Government's case and Mr Bridge reason that he and his colleagues in the NAC are should not be left to do it. frustrated with the Burke and Hawke Labor Governments. When the Labor Party was in Op- Hon. Mark Nevill: He is too black, is he? position, it promised the Aboriginal people the Hon. N. F. MOORE: I think he is doing a good whole world if they voted for the ALP. job, bearing in mind he is bound by the Labor Hon. Peter Dowding: Rubbish! Party's platform, as are the rest of its members. Hon. N. F. MOORE: They got their votes, but Hon. Peter Dowding: You were happy to see delivered not one iota- your supporters abuse him because of race and Hon. Peter Dowding: You would deliver racism colour in the presence of your leader at Port and insults. Hedland. Hon. N. F. MOORE: While I do not often Hon. N. F. MOORE: I. ask the Minister agree with Mr Riley, I can understand his frus- whether he was there? tration in having to put up with a Government Hon. Peter Dowding: They did not stand up for such as this-a group of hypocrites. Mr Bridge and it was one of the most disgraceful Several members interjected. displays of racism in this State. Hon. N. F. MOORE: Is it not interesting that The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Hon. D. J. on the land rights issue the Government has put Wordsworth): Order! the member for Kimberley, Mr Bridge, out in front? He is the only Government member to Hon. N. F. MOORE: It is interesting that the make any statement about land rights. member for North Province, who represents the Pilbara, can sit in this Parliament and make com- Hon. Peter Dowding: He is a statesman, and a ments about a meeting he did not attend and very good one. which was in his electorate In fact the people in Hon. N. F. MOORE: The Minister with special his electorate never see him. responsibility for Aboriginal Affairs has hidden The Minister was invited, not Mr Bridge, to put and left poor old Mr Bridge to carry on again. He forward the Government's point of view, but did is the one out in front making all the speeches and he turn up? No, he has not turned up to any of the the other Government members will make their meetings to which he has been invited. In fact, we decisions based on the politics of the situation were delighted that the Minister sent Mr Bridge. when it arises. Sitting suspended from 6.00 to 7.30 p.m. Hon. Peter Dowding: So you could set him up and abuse him. It was disgraceful. Hon. N. F. MOORE: Prior to the dinner sus- pension I was making the point that the ve- I-on. N. F. MOORE: Mr Bridge was sent by hemence with which the State Government has the Minister because the Minister was too fright- attacked the claims for sacred sites for the ened to turn up. He is too frightened to turn up to Harding River Dam would indicate it is sensitive any meeting to discuss the issue, and he sends Mr to the whole question of land rights and of the way Bridge because he thinks he will be treated better. in which it is falling behind in the public opinion Hon. Peter Dowding: You proved him wrong. on this subject. Hon. P. H. Lockyer: He was treated very well. I said that even the Minister inds it difficult to argue the case in public. He has put the member The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Order! I will not for Kimberley, Mr Bridge, forward as his spokes- have another debate taking place. man on this subject and we Find the Minister's not Hon. N. F. MOORE: Mr Bridge will tell the being prepared to argue on behalf of the Govern- Minister that he was treated with every consider- ment. On every occasion when there has been a ation. [Wednesday, 8 August 1984151 sit

Hon. Peter Dowding: That is not what he told Hon. Peter Dowding: The quote does Dot refer Me. to money. Hon. N. F. MOORE: If people express views Hon. N. F. MOORE: Perhaps the Minister is about land rights which are contrary to what the right. Bill Lang who wrote the story has assumed Government is peddling, they are called racist. it is money. That is nonsense. If that is the case, under the Hon. Peter Dowding: He has assumed it. Minister's defintion the vast majority of Western Australians would be racists. It is most regrettable Hon. N. F. MOORE: I said that. Perhaps it that the Government has taken advantage of Mr means compensation in other ways. What does it Bridge in this way. I would like to hear the Minis- mean? Does it mean the return of land or does it ter argue the point. mean compensation by way of the provision of houses? It is no wonder that Mr Riley and his supporters consider the Government of the day to be hyp- Hon. Peter Dowding: Before you accuse them of ocritical. demanding money why don't you check it out? I was disappointed to read in today's Daily Hon. N. F. MOORE: I did not say that. Mr News an article headed, "Money key to dam Lang said that and I am concerned that the issue row". I want to quote from that article because it of compensation has been raised in this way. introduces a further element which is Marilyn Lockyer has said that the Aborigines disconcerting. It says- want compensation. The compensation may or may not be in the form of money. Money. That's the name of the game in the row over the Harding Dam. Hon. Peter Dowding: That is right. Now, Aboriginal advisers to the local Hon. N. F. MOORE: It produces a rather tribespeople are advising: "They want com- interesting light on the issue. In other words the pensation." Government is saying that it will take away cur- It continues- rent sacred sites and the Aboriginal people will be compensated for them. What are sacred sites It was conflrmed by Marilyn Lockyer, sec- worth? How does one compensate people for retary of the Eiramugadu Group, sacred sites? representing Aboriginal people in the area. Hon. Peter Dowding: Do you take them away The article is interesting when one reads it more and do nothing? closely because it says, "Aboriginal advisers to the local tribespeople are advising: 'They want com- Hon. N. F. MOORE: They are spiritual sites, pensation"'. It is not the Aboriginal people who and how are the Aboriginal people compensated want the compensation, but their advisers. for them? Anyone can work out a price for any- thing he likes, but it is nonsense to say that the Hon. Peter Dowding: Does she mean money? Aboriginal people can be compensated for sacred Hon. N. F. MOORE: I will read it again for the sites. Minister's benefit. Hon. Peter Dowding: There may be other ways. Hon. Peter Dowding: I am looking at it. Com- Hon. N. F. MOORE: The Minister can tell me pensation does not necessarily mean money. the other ways when he makes his speech. It Several members interjected. means compensation for material benefits and it is Hon. P. H. Lockyer: It is money. a regrettable situation which has occurred. Hon. N. F. MOORE: I will read it again. It Hon. Peter Dowding: You assumed it was states- money. Money. That's the name- Hon. N. F. MOORE: I read Mr Lang's article. "Money" is a one word sentence. The article con- Hon. Peter Dowding: So did he assume it, and tinues- he may well be wrong. of the game in the row over the Harding Hon. N. F. MOORE: I hope the Minister can Dam. prove Mr Lang's assumption to be wrong. Now, Aboriginal advisers to the local Hon. Peter Dowding: I do not have to prove it tribespeople are advising: "They want com- wrong. He made the assumption which you have pensation." been happy to pick up because it suits your pur- Hon. Peter Dowding: It does not say money. pose. Hon. P. H. Lockyer: What do they want as Hon. N. F. MOORE: I hope the advisers con- compensation? cerned can get the true message across. If it does 512 512COUNCIL] not mean money and it means some other compen- It is the same sort of cynical exercise in turning sation, we should know about it and so should Mr the plight of disadvantaged people into a political Lang so that he can write an article in tomorrow's stunt that we saw when Hon. Norman Moore Daily News and explain that he was wrong. If he moved to institute an examination into people's is not wrong I hope that the Government will say poverty-in the light of television and Press cover- So. age-when he moved for a Select Committee on a The Opposition hopes that the Government will previous occasion. support this motion. It probably will not support It is exactly the same attempt by the Opposition to everything that I have said about it. However, I make political mileage and it is good luck to the will paraphrase the motion for the information of Opposition, actions of this kind are often thought Government members. to be the role of Oppositions who cannot put up constructive suggestions. To cloak it under the Firstly, the motion expresses concern of the guise of a bipartisan approach is about as shallow State Parliament that there should be a Common- and transparent as was the famed emperor's cloth. wealth law that would enable the building of the Mr Moore having urged there should be a biparti- Harding Dam to be delayed. That is what the san approach to this issue, having urged there Opposition asks the Commonwealth Government. should be some attempt at consensus by the State Secondly, it expresses the belief that this Parlia- Government and Opposition members, having ment has the constitutional power to make laws quoted Hon. Des Dans' comments in Hansard that with respect to sacred sites. In fact, it has already the Government would be prepared to look at good done that through the Aboriginal Heritage Act. suggestions the Opposition put up, has turned his Thirdly, it acknowledges with approval the de- tongue to be critical not only of the Federal cision that was made by the Federal Government Government on this issue, but also of the State to reject the Aboriginal claims to the Harding Government because of its actions. He not only River Dam site. impinged on the honesty and integrity of the Ab- original community and its advisers, but he also Fourthly, it calls on the Commonwealth impinged on the integrity of the Government and Government to express full support for the hinted there was some sort of plot to create this completion of the construction of the Harding issue for the Government's ends. River Dam. The people in the Pilbara would ap- Not even the simplest of us could believe that preciate that commitment.. Mr Moore was genuine in his bipartisan approach. Fifthly. it calls on the Government to repeal the Since he places so much store by what is said in Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders Heritage the Press, I would like to refer him to a comment (Interim Protection) Act. I hope the Government which appears in The Bulletin dated 14 August, will support the motion moved by the Opposition. and which I understand was issued today. It is an As I said at the commencement of my remarks, article entitled, "New delays for Federal land the Opposition is moving the same motion in the rights legislation". I quote this simply to illustrate Assembly in the hope that the Government will to Mr Moore that there are always two sides to agree to it in both Houses in order that a biparti- any argument. It reads- san approach can be made to the Federal Govern- Despite attempts to picture him as inflex- ment to do something sensible about this legis- ible on the issue, Holding has shown a will- lation. I have suggested tonight that what the Fed- ingness to compromise. He has acknowledged eral Government has done is not acceptable. The weaknesses in the NT Act. provisions contained within the Act are unaccept- That is the view which the journalist put on it. able and it is draconian according to newspaper editorials. It is the sort of legislation that should Hon. N. F. Moore: Whom is the journalist? be struck from the books and I hope this Parlia- Hon. PETER DOWDING: I would like to ment, by passing this motion, will have some influ- quote another portion of the article, because it is ence on the Federal Government and that it will Very pertinent and descriptive of Mr Moore and get rid of this legislation. his colleagues. It reads- HON. PETER DOWDING (North-Minister Shrill appeals to fear, prejudice and guilt for Planning) [7.42 p.m.]: This is an irrelevant still grab headlines but the resolution will de- motion in the circumstance of events. It is nothing pend upon compromise and the political bal- more than the Opposition's grandstanding to ex- ance of one interest against another. tract further mileage out of a complex and a diffi- Shrill appeals to fear, prejudice, and guilt is how I cult situation which, in fact, has been resolved by would describe Mr Moore's approach. He and his the State and Federal Governments. party have closely associated themselves with Mr [Wednesday, 8 August 1984]11 513

Geoff MacDonald, who has written one of the future, but they were appalled at the conduct of most nonsensical books I have ever read in my life; the meeting, and in particular, at a Mr Ross it is called Red Over Black. It is a parody of a Lightfoot who talked in a bigoted way, and at Bill book. It is turgid nonsense which is a disgrace to Hassell was prepared to stand up and see Ernie the intelligence of Australian people and the Ab- Bridge denigrated. original community. It is written by some lunatic Hon. N. F. Moore: That is tripe. who claims that for 14 years he was inculcated in Hon. PETER DOWDING: The member was the ways of the KGB and the Communist Party, but he has now seen the light. He writes of the not there. Liberal and Labor Governments and the efforts of Hon. N. F. Moore: I was there. the KGB to take over the country. Mr Moore has Hon. PETER DOWDING: If the member was associated himself with this man. The Liberal there, he should be ashamed of himself. Party has paid for this man- Hon. N. F. Moore: I know what happened. I Hon. N. F. Moore: That is not true. was there; you were not. Stick to the truth. Hon. PETER DOWDING: -to stir up black Several members interjected. against white and white against black- Hon. PETER DOWDING: People have said Hon. N. F. Moore: Stick to the truth. that it was most disgraceful behaviour. Hon. PETER DOWDING: -and to stir up Hon. N. F. Moore: You were not even there. families against one another. He is preaching racist hatred throughout this State. This is one of Hon. PETER DOWDING: I said that. the few States, with the exception of Queensland, Several members interjected. where he has any chance of credibility. The ecdi- Hon. PETER DOWDING: Either the member bility has conic about because Mr Moore. Mr is telling falsehoods, or he is so blinded by this Hassell, and all the members of their Liberal nonsense of Geoff MacDonald's and so inculcated Party here, with some notable exceptions, have that he simply cannot accept the reality. been prepared to associate themselves with this man. Hon. N. F. Moore: I know the reality of people's attitudes. Might I say, so that this man's nature and atti- tudes do not escape this Parliament, that he has Hon. PETER DOWDING: The fact is that in been a long-standing member of the League of the circumstances to which Hon. Norman Moore Rights, which has preached racial hatred, anti- has referred, the Commonwealth Government, Jewish hatred, anti-Zionist hatred, and he is through Senator Ryan, has already made it clear preaching anti-Asian hatred. He is going around regarding the application under the particular now preaching anti-Aboriginal hatred. This is not legislation, the Aboriginal and Torres Strait the spirit of compromise which will help Western Islander Heritage (Interim Protection) Act 1984, Australia solve what is an extremely difficult and that the dam will go ahead and the application will complex issue. This association of the Liberal be rejected, so that issue is no longer a live one. Party of this State with people who are so appal- The Premier and the Minister with special re- lingly unrepresentative of the tolerant views of sponsibility for Aboriginal Affairs have on many Australians brings criticism to the Opposition in occasions expressed their opposition to this par- its handling of this whole issue. ticular legislation which they believe was drafted It is true that in my electorate a meeting was in haste and with insufficient consultation. Hon. held which was not a public meeting; the organ- Norman Moore knows full well that the review of isers insisted on charging people at the door, and the Aboriginal Heritage Act is one of the terms of inside they served alcohol during the discourse reference of the Seaman inquiry. This man, who is about this sensitive, emotional, cultural, spiritual, purporting to be the Liberal Party spokesman on and political issue. In the course of that meeti ng, Aboriginal Affairs, has not even put in a sub- Mr Ernie Bridge was attacked for being coloured, mission about the workings of the State Aborigi- and a man made special reference to the colour on nal Heritage Act. the back of his hands. Hon. Fred McKenzie: I cannot believe it! Several members interjected. Hon. N. F. Moore: How many submissions did Hon. PETER DOWDING: There were ordi- the Minister put in to inquiries set up by the nary people there. Hon. Phil Lockyer would know. previous Government? There were people at that meeting who never Hon. PETER DOWDING: Tell the truth, Mr supported the Labor Party, and they would Moore. Has the member put in a submission or probably never support the Labor Party in the not? (17) 514 514[COUNCIL]

Hon. N. F. Moore: I have said publicly I have ation of the Aboriginal Heritage Act. Opposition not. I said why, too. members are frightened of being seen to take a Hon. PETER DOWDING: There is the real position, they are so terrified about anyone think- concern of the Opposition! ing they could be considered pro-Aboriginal that they are not prepared to make a submission on the H-on. N. F. Moore: That has nothing to do with Aboriginal Heritage Act. They are either fright- it. The Seaman inquiry was just a front set-up, ened, ignorant- and you know it. Hon. Fred McKenzie: Or negative. Hon. PETER DOWDING: Another example. Several members interjected. Hon. PETER DOWDING: -or negative. They are not prepared to make a submission to Mr Hon. PETER DOWDING: They denigrate the Seaman. Furthermore, although they are prepared commissioner- to say that Aboriginal reserves should be Several members interjected. reclaimed, they are not prepared even to say that Hon. PETER DOWDING: A farce and a set- to Mr Seaman, although that is a point relevant to up! his terms of reference. Hon. N. F. Moore: It is a farce. This is the case where, in this House, and for Several members interjected. purposes associated with publicity-and it is diffi- cult for people who do not have a strong point of Hon. PETER DOWDING: This man is one of view or an intelligent one- our most respected silks in this State. He has acted for just about every single establishment imagin- Hon. N. F. Moore: Our point of view~ on this is able in this State, including members of the Oppo- strong. sition party when they have been in trouble. They Hon. PETER DOWDING: For thosc who do have been happy to turn to him for his assistance. not ca re 1wo h oot s a bou t sol vi ng realI soc ialI issuies, Hon. N. F. Moore: Nobody has criticised Mr publicity is hard to come by. Seaman personally. The Government does remain concerned about the welfare and interests of the Aboriginal com- Hon. PETER DOWDING: They know the firm munities, both in this area under discussion and in of which he is a partner, and they know his cre- other areas. In the context of this debate and the dentials. lieI was in partnership with a man who circumstances giving rise to it, to ensure that was sacked: who was the President of the Liberal nothing jeopardises that welfare, the Government Party, (Mr Ian Warner). The man who replaced has appointed a subcommittee to look after the him was even more right wing than Mr Warner. if issue and to safeguard the interests in a practical that is possible. and compassionate way. Mr Moore has not put up Several members interjected. any single assertion or suggestion tonight as to A member: What is this. Gilbert and Sullivan? how one might make sure that everyone's interests The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Hon. D. J. are protected. He is quite prepared to impugn the Wordsworth): Order! motives of the Government, of the Aboriginal community, and of anyone else around the place. Hon. PETER DOWDING: The fact is that a What he fails to admit on the floor of this House is man of the credibility of the man chosen- that there is no land rights legislation in the Several members interjected. Northern Territory or in South Australia, other Hon. N. F. Moore: Nobody has spoken about than the land rights legislation which was Mr Seaman personally. The inquiry is based upon implemented by Liberal Governments. Whatever terms of reference- the imperfections of those Acts of Parliament, the Several members interjected. fact is that they were introduced by Liberal Hon. PETER DOWDING: One of the terms of Governments and will be reviewed and made more reference is about the operations of the Aboriginal appropriate where necessary by Labor Govern- Heritage Act. Mr Moore has pretended tonight ments. that he is a full bottle on it. He should have sent To show how extreme he is, Mr Norman Moore the commissioner a note to say that the Aboriginal has even distanced himself from Sir ioh Bjelke- Heritage Act was not working well and he could Petersen. Even in Queensland they support the suggest changes, but he could not even put pen to view that there should be special legislation for paper. So deep is the Opposition's determination land-holdings by Aborigines. to make political mileage as opposed to the real This May well be a far cry froml the N'orthern issue that they do not even put pen to paper to Territory land Act, but it relics on a proposition express an opinion to the commissioner on the that Mr Moore and his League of Rights mates sixth term of reference, which concerns the oper- regard as unacceptable. [Wednesday, 8 August 1984]51 515

Hon. N. F. Moore: I have never said I am a case in support of the referendum, other than to member of the League of Rights. say that the constitutional position had been estab- Hon. PETER DOWDING: There is documen- lished that Federal legislation was within the tation in Victoria- ability of the Federal Parliament and that it was constitutionally appropriate for it to act; but it Several members interjected. ought not to act without full consultation with the Hon. N. F. Moore: You are a blatant liar. States, which is a position the Western Australian Hon. PETER DOWDING: If the member has Government has taken all along. not signed the pledge, it is only because he is afraid someone will ind out. It is interesting and worth noting that the West- ern Australian Government has been able to stand Several members interjected. up to and negotiate with the Federal Labor The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Hon. D. J. Government and on occasions take different Wordsworth): Order! positions without resorting to the sort of frenetic Hon. PETER DOWDING: The member must breastbeating we saw so often with previous withdraw that. Administrations. We can have our differences, but Withdrawal of Remark we can also work constructively with this very The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Order! I ask capable Federal Government. Hon. Norman Moore to withdraw that. In that context, we have criticised this Com- Hon. N. F. MOORE: I certainly withdraw it. monwealth legislation on specific grounds. We have asked for and received assurances that there Debate (on motion) Resumed will be consultations before any action is taken Hon. PETER DOWDING: The fact is that in under this Federal Act, and that is precisely what this State there are people who are righter than has occurred in this case. It is up to the States to right and who make Joh Sjelke-Petersen look like keep their own affairs in order, and this State is a left-wing socialist. They so isolate themselves showing some leadership through its establishment from reality that they want to prance around the of the Seaman inquiry. stage beating up a bit of racism, hoping they will It i.s interesting also to note how far Mr Moore's make some political mileage in the course of that views about the Seaman inquiry have been activity. distanced by the major people involved in minerals The Government takes the view that the Issues and oil exploration. In a speech about six weeks of Aboriginal heritage and the protection Of sacred ago, Mr Keith Orchison referred to the very sites are State matters. That is the position we exhaustive processes in which we were prepared to have taken all along. The Government has ac- engage. It would have been easy for us, on cepted that responsibility and sees no point in sup- entering office, simply to say, "There is the Act; porting a motion of this kind. let's run with it". It would be easy for us to abro- Really, all Mr Moore is doing with this motion, gate our responsibilities and say to the Federal as opposed to his personal diatribe, is repeating Government, "You go ahead and pass legislation". what the State Government has said on this issue. It is interesting that he was so conscious of repeat- We have said that Mr Seaman's inquiry will be ing what we said that he had to throw into the ring wide-ranging. No-one has been denied reasonable the idea that this whole issue was probably opportunity to make submissions to it. Some arranged by the Labor Party of Western Australia people have chosen not to, specifically the Oppo- because the issue seemed to be going so well for sition. That is not a position shared by the major the Government and there was nothing more he mining companies or sectional interests. It is not a could do about it other than to attack the Govern- position shared by APEA, the Australia-wide oil ment and impugn its credit. If he thinks we set up exploration association. It is not a position shared this issue, I assure him that we are not getting by responsible members of the community. But it kudos out of it. We are not seeking kudos. We see is a position shared by these right-wing, League of the bipartisan nature of the motion as a fraud and Rights-supporting members of the Liberal Party. a disguise, and that is supported by the nonsense If there are shortcomings in the Western Mr Moore came out with in his speech. Australian Aboriginal Heritage Act, and if there The Commonwealth has a bona fie is any evidence that, it ought to be presented to constitutional authority in the area of Aboriginal Mr Seaman's inquiry. I criticise in the strongest affairs. That is a position which has been known terms members of the Opposition for being pre- since the referendum, and even Mr Moore could pared to stand on their hindlegs in this place and hardly make anything of his quote from the "Yes" pontificate about this Act, but not being prepared 516 516[COUNCIL) to make a submission to the Seaman inquiry about about it. We will play our cards close to the chest its operation. in the hope that the Government will bungle and The Federal Government has acknowledged the fall on its face; or until we are able, through Mr importance of Mr Seaman's work. The question is McDonald's racist vitriol, to whip up antagonism whether the Opposition thinks the State Govern- and make it a winning point for us". ment should stand back and let the Federal I make two points, and the first is that, despite Government legislate, or whether the Opposition all the debate tonight about the Seaman inquiry supports the position that a Western Australian and land rights, this issue has nothing to do with Government should implement legislation itself. land rights. This issue has nothing to do with Mr We support the rights of the Western Australian Seaman's inquiry except to the extent that it deals Government to do so and we would have thought with a review of the Aboriginal Heritage Act. But the Opposition understood the benefits to this in terms of responsibility to the Aboriginal com- State from that happening. munity in order to redress a wrong or in order to In the meantime, despite the enthusiastic and make up for something that it has lost, it may well emotional tone of Mr Moore's speech and my re- be appropriate to make some arrangement for ply to it, the fact is that out of this Chamber in the them. If that is called compensation, then Mr real world there is a very complex social issue to Moore regards it as having a pecuniary value. It be debated. may well be that where people have lost some- thing, it is appropriate for the Government to en- Mr Moore should take note of what the United deavour to restore something else, and that is the States of America has done for its indigenous view we take of the issue. peoples; he ought to see what the Government of the United States of America passed in 1971 for the indigenous people of Alaska, where it Amendment to Motion recognised the special position and entitlements of I regard it as appropriate that this House should indigenous people. No-one would say that in 1971 in fact pass the motion amended in the following we saw a Government in the United States that terms, and I move- was part of a KGB plot; yet that is the sort of That the amendment be amended by nonsense we come across- That for someone to talk deleting all words after the word "Australia" about special rights for indigenous people is some- in line I with a view to substituting the fol- how an affront to the democratic system is the lowing- point of view peddled by Mr Moore. I urge him to ask the US Information Service for details of that acknowledges with approval the decision Act and to see the sorts of facilities that were of the Commonwealth to reject claims afforded the indigenous people of that area. under the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders Heritage (interim Protection) In the meantime it is important-and I can only Act that would have disrupted the say this to some other members of the Opposition, Harding River Dam project; because Mr Moore has shown himself incapable of accepting this proposition-and I certainly say applauds the swift and successful action this to members of the public: Be patient, be by the State Government to ensure that reasonable, be prepared to act in a spirit of good- the claims did not halt the project; will, because that is what this Government is notes the constitutional duty the State seeking to do-not stand up and adopt a definite Government has to protect the rights and position in detail about how a particular issue will interests of all its citizens, and specifi- be resolved. What we are saying is that when the cally the existence of State legislation for time comes and the Seaman report has been the protection of Aboriginal sacred sites; handed down, it will be appropriate then for people to make comment, in other than an hysteri- supports the Government's endeavour to cal way, because we will be interested in and genu- reach a just settlement with the Aborigi- inely consulting with the views they express. But it nal communities affected that will not is difficult to consult genuinely with an Opposition impede the construction of the Harding that says, "We are going to pick up our toys and River Dam; go home and not talk to you, even though we and calls for the establishment of a joint admit that one of the terms of reference at least is Commonwealth-State working party to important, because we have views about it; and further consider the operation of the Ab- even though we consider there ought to be some original and Torres Strait Islanders provision for Aboriginal landholdings-to wit, Ab- Heritage (Interim Protection) Act in original reserves-we will not make any statement States where legislation already exists (Wednesday, 8 August 1984J 5171

for the protection of Aboriginal sacred his colleagues are in enormous trouble because sites. they have sold the Aboriginal people down the HON. P. H. LOCKVER (Lower North) [8.13 tube and the Aboriginal people have suddenly p.m.J: The Opposition opposes this amendment, woken up to them. and when one sits in this House and listens to a He thinks this problem will not occur again. It Minister of the Crown accuse a senior member of will occur again with monotonous regularity, and the front bench of the Opposition of it is of the ALP's own making that that will hap- grandstanding, one could be excused for saying pen. It is on the heads of the ALP members; it is that the boot has been firmly placed on the other their particular law. For them to come to this foot, because for the Minister to move such a House to try to convince us that they accept the ridiculous amendment knowing full well that it Commonwealth Government's decision on this will not be accepted by the Opposition is a waste case makes one wonder whether they will say the of time for many reasons. same thing in the future when they have to face up First of all, I point to the very bad manners of to similar problems caused by this abhorrent piece the mover of the amendment for not having the of legislation. It is like Big Brother breathing over courtesty of giving the Opposition some prior no- us and taking away our State rights. tice of it-something which is an unwritten rule in When we hear such unmitigated nonsense as the this place-which is fairly typical of the mover of Minister for Planning's saying that the Liberal the amendment. The speech made by the Minister Party was paying Geoff McDonald to go around provided lots of reasons for the Opposition's not the country pushing his far right-wing sayings on accepting the amendment. people is absolute nonsense. He knows it well. The Australian Labor Party, particularly its Hon. Peter Dowding: It is true. parliamentary wing, has got itself into all sorts of Hon. P. H. LOCKYER: Just because the Min- trouble over this question of Aboriginal land rights ister does not agree with Geoff McDonald, it does and Aboriginal heritage. It is amazing that the not mean the Liberal Party does. Minister could have stood in this House and told H-on. Peter Dowding: Do you renounce him? Do us that the whole subject of the debate had you support him? nothing to do with land rights, after he had spent I5 minutes berating Hon. Norman Moore about H-on. P. H. LOCKYER: I have no thoughts the fact that the Liberal Party had not given sup- either way on the matter. port to the Seaman inquiry. The Minister's stance Hon. Peter Dowding: Mr Moore was circulating in that respect is laughable in itself. the book. Hon. Peter Dowding interjected. Several members interjected. Hon. P. H. LOCKYER: I did not interject Hon. P. H. LOCKYER: Mr MacDonald has while the Minister was speaking, so he should never in the past, nor will he in the future, have remain silent now. I can see straight through him, one dollar paid to him by the Liberal Party to go as can the Aboriginal people. around the State of Western Australia. The Min- Mr Dowding has the effrontery to try to con- ister does himself a disservice. He should not try to vince this House that the Federal Government has tell lies to me. solved this problem. Part of his amendment The Minister says that Mr Moore and other states- people stirred up racial hatred at Port Hedland. I acknowledges with approval the decision want the members of this House to know what this of the Commonwealth to reject claims Minister said in Roebourne prior to the John Pat under the Aboriginal and Torres Strait case which involved the police of Western Islanders Heritage (interim Protection) Australia. The Minister for Planning almost Act that would have disrupted the incited a riot. Harding River Dam project. Withdrawal of Remark I trust Mr Dowding was watching "Nationwide" last night, because one of his good friends from the Hon. PETER DOWDING: I object. I take the ALS appeared on the programme, and he does not strongest exception to that statement. I demand given by the Commonwealth that it be withdrawn-the allegation that I accept the decision "almost Government. incited a riot". I put it to you, Mr Deputy President (Hon. D, J. Hon. N. F. Moore: You did incite a riot. Wordsworth) that the problem has been tempor- Hon. PETER DOWDING: I ask that that be arily swept under the mat, and Mr Dowding and withdrawn also, because it is totally untrue. 518 518COUNCIL]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Hon. D. J. and it is after he has been named that he has the Wordsworth): I did not hear the other remark. I right of personal explanation. I have been there ask Hon. Phil Lockyer to withdraw the statement. and done that. Hon. P. H. LOCKYER: I will not withdraw the The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It is the presiding statement. I repeat: the Minister almost incited a officer's right to decide whether the words should riot. be withdrawn or are unparliamentary. I think it Hon. PETER DOWDING: Mr Deputy Presi- depends on the context in which the words are dent, I object to that reference in the strongest used. That is the reason I asked- possible terms: It is an allegation of the com- Hon. PETER DOWDING: On a further point mission of a criminal offence and I object to it of order, Standing Order No. 87 does not give you most strongly. that power. It says that if you regard them to be Hon. A. A. Lewis: Isn't it nice to see him get- objectionable, you shall order them to be with- ting his own back. drawn forthwith. Hon. V. J. Ferry: Hurts a bit. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I am seeking the Hon. 1. G. Pratt: Abusing everyone else all information before I consider the matter. I believe night and can't take that. He is accusing people all the member has the right of explanation as to over the State of being with the League of Rights, what he means. but as soon as someone says something about him Hon. Peter Dowding: He said "almost inciting". he runs for Cover. Hon. P. H. LOCKYER: The words were not Hon. N. F. Moore: Uses parliamentary privilege meant to be offensive; I was describing a particu- all the time. lar case and I was replying to some questions. It Hon. 1. G. Pratt: When he was in opposition he was not meant, in my view, to be offensive to the was always challenging people to go outside and member. It was an explanation of which I was say things. only half-way, or even one-tenth of the way Hon. Peter Dowding: Say that outside and see through. I do not believe it is offensive. I will not what happens. withdraw the words because they are important to my speech. Several members interjected. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Under the cir- Hon. 1. G. Pratt: Don't you read Mansard? It is cumstances, as the words were used, they need not in Mansard. Your response was true to form, was be withdrawn. I will be following the rest of the not it? debate very closely and if I consider that the mem- The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Hon. D. . ber does imply that the Minister committed a Wordsworth): Order! I ask Hon. Philip Lockyer if criminal act, I will certainly ask him to withdraw he is using those words in a literal sense or the words. otherwise. I believe the words can be used in another sense. Debate (on amendment to motion) Resumed Hon. P. H. LOCKYER: On a point of order, Hon. P. H. LOCKYER: Thank you for the Sir, I ask under what Standing Order you asked ruling, Sir. me to withdraw the words. Several members interjected. Hon. PETER DOWDING: I seek your direc- tion, Sir, for the withdrawal of these words under Hon. Peter Dowding: One law for your mob, Standing Order No. 87, and you will recall the and one law for the rest. ruling of the President that where a member objects the words are to be withdrawn without Withdrawal of Remark further debate. Hon. A. A. LEWIS: I ask the Minister to with- The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: As stated by the draw that remark "One law for your mob, and one Minister, he has asked for the words to be with- law for the rest". It is a reflection on the Chair. I drawn under Standing Order No. 87. ask that it be withdrawn. It is distasteful and a Hon. P. H. LOCKYER: I will not withdraw the reflection on the Chair. words and I have a right of explanation. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Hon. D. . Hon. PETER DOWDING: On a further point Wordsworth): Order! I did not hear that remark. of order, the honourable member does not have a If the Minister wishes to say that he did say that, I right of explanation. The ruling of the President is ask him to withdraw. However, I did not hear it. that he should withdraw the words, and if he Hon. P. H. LOCKYER: That is some reflection refuses to withdraw the words, he may be named, on the Minister concerned, because I heard it, he [Wednesday, 8 August I9841 5191

knows it and it is on his head, so he sits there Debate (on amendment to motion) Resumed condemned, in my view. Hon. P. H-. LOCKYER: I know what was said The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Order! The hurts Mr Dowding. It was meant to hurt. It is time member will return to the debate. that the matter was brought to the attention of this Chamber. A person cannot go around calling Debate (on amendment to motion) Resumed people one thing and then object and take back his Hon. P. H. LOCKYER: This particular Minis- marbles like a spoilt child when faced with the ter went to Roebourne with one thing in mind same treatment. It simply will not work. The Min- during the John Pat case, and that was to stir up ister's behaviour during that speech was intoler- racial hatred. able. If he is going to carry on like that, then he needs a lot more of this sort of thing. It is wrong to Withdrawal of Remark say people such as Mr Moore go around preaching Hon. PETER DOWDING: I object to the in- racial hatred. ference that I went to Roebourne with one thing in The Minister brought up the matter of the Port mind. That is an imputation of improper motive Hediand meeting and tried to have this Chamber and a personal reflection. I take the strongest ex- believe that Mr Ernie Bridge, the member for ception to it. Kimberley. was treated badly there. That is absol- The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I believe that the ute unmitigated nonsense, because Ernie Bridge is Minister has a right to object to those sort of held in the highest respect in and out of his elec- words. I believe Hon. Philip Lockyer should not be torate. The Minister knows that. He is probably quite so direct in his accusations. one of the more popular members in this Parlia- ment. He would be astounded to hear what the Hon. P. H. LOCKYER: I withdraw that Minister has said tonight. I venture to say that I remark, but in withdrawing I point out that during would be very surprised if Ernie Bridge said he his speech the Minister accused Mr Moore of be- was treated badly at that meeting. I know many ing a "closet member of the League of Rights". people who were there and that was not so. Hon. N.EF. Moore: Which of course is not true. I understand the Federal member for Kalgoorlie Hon. P. H. LOCKYER: It is an absolute un- (Mr Graham Campbell) tried to take over the mitigated untruth. The Minister finds he is sud- meeting and had to be pulled into line. I under- denly faced with what has been on someone's lips stand also that the member for Pilbara (Mrs for so long, but which no-one has told the people Buchanan) was heard well. Her words were taken around. I believe it is the right of Parliament to into consideration by all gathered there. However, know that we have a person in this Chamber who I will not accept that Ernie Bridge was denigrated thinks that there is one rule for him and one rule by anyone present. That is cheap political for someone else. In this particular case he knows grandstanding of the poorest kind. that is true. The Minister once again stands condemned for Hon. PETER DOWDING: Mr Deputy Presi- saying that. I know the nature of Norman Moore. dent, I have asked that those words be withdrawn. I have been a co-member of his for the past four Your direction was that they be withdrawn and years, and I know he does not go around the honourable member is repeating them.. denigrating his colleagues. Several members interjected. With respect to the Seaman inquiry, Mr Hon. 1. G. Pratt: He didn't. Check Hansard. Dowding made great play of the fact that the Hon. Peter Dowding: He said they were true. Liberal Party did not make a submission to it. There is a good reason for that and the Minister Several members interjected. knows it. Mr Moore, the Opposition spokesman The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Order! for Aboriginal Affairs has made that clear on sev- Several members interjected. eral occasions. The Liberal Party decided not to The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Hon. D. J. put in a submission because the terms of reference Wordsworth): Order! While I am speaking mem- were not whether land rights would be granted, bers will not interject. I asked Mr Lockyer to but when. We object to that, because we believe in withdraw those words and he did so. As far as my equal rights for everybody. following of the debate is concerned, he is now As for Peter Dowding trying to pass that one speaking about the previous debate where the over in this House, there is absolutely no chance of Minister called Mr Moore a "closet member of it. When the Seaman inquiry is concluded I put it the League of Rights". It is not a point of order to the House that the Government which is in and Mr Lockyer will return to the debate. power at present will try to wriggle out of the 520 520COUNCIL) promises made to the Aboriginal people about intelligence of the members of this Chamber by land rights. The Government knows that the heat telling us that the compensation given to the Abor- is on it and its members are under enormous press- iginal people will not include money. I know ure at the moment. They are in full speed back- money is involved, the Aboriginal people know wards and will try and wriggle out of it, but they that money is involved, and the Government cannot because the Aboriginal people see through knows that money is involved. There will be no them as if they were a pane of glass. question of the Government's giving them a block The Australian of 7 August 1984 , in a front of land and taking out a few bones and shifting page article written by Allan Yates and Peter them somewhere else. The Aboriginal people ex- Terry, quotes a Mr Peter Yu the NAC member pect to get money because their white advisers for West Kimberley, and says- have told them they can expect money. "The Federal Government's betrayal of Some people, like the ALS man who appeared Aboriginal trust fills us with dread," Mr Yu on television the other evening, have said that they said. "What possible faith can we have in will press the Aborigines' case on their behalf. federal legislation now that sacred sites have One should look through the legislation which been ruled as expendable?" was introduced into the other place by Hon. What are the Aboriginal people going to think Andrew Mensaros. He told the Legislative As- when this Government wriggles out of its promise. sembly at that time about the trouble the Govern- The Premier of this State went and saw the ment took to make sure that the people residing Central Desert people and told them that they near the Harding River Dam site were happy would have freehold land. What will happen when about the proposed development. The previous they do not get it? It is my view and the view of Government ensured that representatives from the many other people in the bush that this Govern- Museum went to the area to talk with the people ment will try to wriggle out of its promise because concerned until, finally, the elders were happy of the political hotbed it finds itself in at the with the development. They told the Minister that moment. It is in all sorts of trouble. they were happy that he had talked with them and that everybody had agreed to the development. Mr Peter Dowding tonight tried to tell us, in his statesman-like way, to be patient and reasonable. It is preposterous that those people should, once He wants us to be quiet. We will not be quiet again, be placed in that tug of war situation by because we will expose the Government for pre- white advisers. Wherever one goes, one sees these cisely what it is. white advisers. They are in the most questionable The Government is using the Aboriginal people of places, putting words into the mouths of the in a most disgraceful way, and suddenly its chooks Aborigines. It sickens me. This case of the are coming home to roost. The Aboriginal people Harding River Dam site is the most despicable I in my electorate have been telling me for some have seen for some time. However, I fear that it time that they think something is wrong with the will not be the last. Government because it will not give them land. The Minister is now trying to wriggle out of his Hon. Peter Dowding: And you are going to, are dilemma by trying to convince this House that we you? should accept his amendment. The first paragraph Hon. P. H. LOCKYER: We have steadfastly of the amendment acknowledges with approval the maintained that we did not try to tell them lies. decision of the Commonwealth to reject claims. It We have been truthful with them.' We have not would be better if it read that this Government told them that we would give them land. We have acknowledges the decision of the Commonwealth been honest. Members may be able to say many Government to drop the heritage Bill or to with- despicable things about us, but they cannot say draw it. The second paragraph states- that we have been dishonest with the Aboriginal applauds the swift and successful action by people. the State Government to ensure that the What will happen to the Aboriginal people? claims did not halt the project. They are the most unfortunate pawns in this awful That paragraph has been included because the game of chess. I feel sorry For them most of all. Government is living in dread. It could see what Because of this legislation which we are discussing was happening. It could see public opinion rising tonight, therc are many confused people. against it. The Government was not swift at all. It The Minister tried to use an article which ap- was muted by fear. It sent Ernie Bridge into the peared on page 3 of tonight's edition of The Daily front line because it had no-one else. He knows News in his speech. He should not try to insult the that his seat is in great danger. [Wednesday, 8 August 1984] 5212

A great flashpoint of racial hatred is being bred not accept that. It knew that the people would not in the Kimberleys at the moment. accept the Federal Government putting its nose Hon. Peter Dowding: Who is causing that? into our affairs. It knew that, at the next State elections, it would be thrown out because of this Hon. P. H. LOCKYER: The Government is, by issue. bringing up this matter of land rights. At the weekend I attended a meeting at the Dalgety For political survival, this Government has Downs Station and I was appalled. The meeting patted itself on the back and given Mr Hawke a was attended by pastoralists from the Kimberleys. good serve over this matter. people who have been dealing with Aborigines for The Government criticised Mr Moore tonight a number of years. They said there is a flashpoint for saying that there is a possibility that a smoke- situation in the Kimberleys. For the first time I screen has been used, and for saying that this have heard people say that blood will be spilled. matter is a political ploy. That possibility exists. It Hon. Peter Dowding: Stirred up by people like does not matter how it is denied by this Govern- you. ment. Hon. P. H. LOCKYER: People like the Minis- The last paragraph of the amendment states- ter have a great deal to answer for. I am referring and calls for the establishment of a joint to the Minister's actions while he was an Oppo- Commonwealth-State working party to sition member and what he has done since he has further consider the operation of the Aborigi- been in office. it is people like the Minister and nal and Tortes Strait Islanders Heritage some of his colleagues who have stirred up Abor- (interim Protection) Act in States where igines into such a frenzy that they now expect to legislation already exists for the protection of get a bigger percentage of Western Australia than Aboriginal sacred sites. anyone could conceivably imagine. The Kimberley What that means is that the Government will Land Council submitted to the Seaman land in- sweep the matter a little further under the mat. quiry a submission that was horrifying. It wanted We do not accept that because it is a matter which land that one could not fly over. No-one can tell is firmly before us now. There is no time like the me that they dreamt that up for themselves. That present to accept Mr Moore's motion which says was dreamt up by people with more despicable that we should all get together and put pressure on thoughts in mind. the Commonwealth Government to withdraw the The Government has criticised Geoff legislation. Let us not talk about Commonwealth- McDonald. One wonders what sorts of thoughts State relations and working committees. This issue are in his mind. will get worse, not better. It is only the first affair Hon. Peter Dowding: Are you a supporter of of this kind. A lot more sacred sites will be found. his? There will be a lot more Commonwealth heritage Bills. This is only the start. The Federal Minister Hon. P. H. LOCKYER: No, I am not. I am has made it abundantly clear that he wants to put saying that things are happening that are not in his name up in lights and be recorded forever as keeping with the best interests of this country. the person who solved the Aboriginal problem. In Hon. Peter Dowding: You are peddling the fact, he will probably do more damage than any McDonald line. other politician in history. I urge this House to Hon. P. H. LOCKYER: The Minister is trying oppose the amendment. to place in front of this Parliament an amendment HON. A. A. LEWIS (Lower Central) [8.42 and expecting us to accept that nonsense. It will p.m.]: May 1, at the introduction of my remarks, not be accepted. The third paragraph states- say that, in the 10 years that I have been a mem- notes the constitutional duty the State ber of this place, I have never seen such a deplor- Government has to protect the rights and able exhibition by a Minister in this House. I have interests of all its citizens, and specifically the seen some pretty rough exhibitions. I have seen existence of State legislation for the protec- some inadequate speeches made by Ministers. tion of Aboriginal sacred sites; However, I have never seen the Chair flaunted and abused and other members abused as has occurred We always believed that the present legislation tonight. The Minister had no right on his side at was sufficient. It was sufficient until the Federal all. Pure venom, racism, and apartheid were show- Government meddled in the affairs of this State ing in his eyes as he spoke every word. and became the Big Brother overlord and took over the running of this State's affairs. Quite prop- Hon. Lyla Elliott: You are exaggerating again. erly, this Government has yelled like a stuck pig Hon. A. A. LEWIS: I am not exaggerating. I because it knew that the people of this State would hope that I-on. Lyla Elliott will never perform in 522 522[COUNCIL] the way this Minister performed in this House Moore had actually been at the meeting and Mr tonight. He said loudly enough for him to be Dowding was going only on hearsay. heard, as far away as where I am sitting, that Hon. Lyla Elliott: I thought it was Mr Moore there is one law for the Government and one law who accused Mr Dowding of being a liar. for the Opposition. Hon. A. A. LEWIS: The member for North- The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Hon. D. J. East Metropolitan Province was not present at the Wordsworth): Order! There is an amendment be- time or was not listening. Mr Dowding told Mr fore the Chair. I would like the member to speak Moore a number of times that he was incorrect to it. and that certain things had happened to Ernie Hon. A. A. LEWIS: I will, Mr Deputy Presi- Bridge. dent. I am saying how appalled I am and, no Hon. Lyla Elliott: It was Mr Moore who used doubt, how appalled Miss Elliott and Mr the term "liar', not Mr Dowding. Hetherington are- Hon. N. F. Moore: I withdrew it. Hon. Robert Hetherington: You speak for your- Hon. A. A. LEWIS: That was when Mr self. Dowding was speaking, not when Mr Moore was Hon. A. A. LEWIS: Stand up and speak then. speaking. The member should listen to the way I Hon. Robert Hetherington: I will wait until you put my words together because I do not have her sit down. clear diction and one can seldom hear my voice! I Hon. A. A. LEWIS: That would be good. The said that when Mr Moore was speaking. Mr Chair would like that too. The amendment moved Dowding said that Ernie was assaulted and that by Mr Dowding acknowledges, with approval, the this, that, and the other happened. Mr Moore was decision of the Commonwealth to reject claims. I saying, "No, no'. When Mr Dowding got up, he do not know whether I will accept this amend- accused Mr Moore of doing all sorts of things. Mr ment. I think I will send copies of the first para- Dowding spent the whole of his speech attacking graph of the amendment to the people of the personalities. Mr Dowding's credibility is zero and Kimberleys and tell them that Mr Dowding moved if it Were possible, it would be less than that. He is that amendment. I think that would dig his politi- starting behind the eight ball. Mr Moore was cal grave so deep that it would not matter, because present at the meeting referred to. I talked to Mr the Aborigines do not acknowledge with approval Bridge about it and he did not give me the same the decision of the Commonwealth Government. sort of answers as had Mr Dlowding. Why do they not acknowledge that decision? They When Mr Dowding and Mr Moore were indulg- do not because they have been promised many ing in those shenanigans, I thought I must have things by this Government, but these promises been told the wrong story. However, I have found have been broken. that Mr Moore was at the meeting and Mr I feel very sorry for the rational people in the Dowding was not. Therefore, what notice can be ALP who have been led by the nose or instructed taken of the Minister? He maligned every member by their State conference to make promises to the of the Liberal Party, and added "with notable Aboriginal people. What Mr Lockyer said is true. exceptions", but did not enlarge upon that. He I probably have had more to do with Aboriginal pointed at Opposition members and said that they people than does any other person in this House. were all bound up with Mr McDonald. I am not a Some of them may be Cooled for some time by member of the League of Rights and I have not promises made by people like Hon. Peter met Mr McDonald. I will concede one point. I Dowding. However, they see through those prom- have read his book, Red Over Black. With due ises. When they see the goods have not been deference to the author, I state that it is one of the delivered, they will turn with great vengeance on most difficult books I have ever read in my life. I the people who made those promises. will not comment on the subject matter. I was asked to review the book for a book club and that It is a matter of deep concern to me that Mr is why I read it. I obviously did it pretty well Dowding, who allegedly wants to support the Ab- because I was asked to review it three more times. original people, speaks with a forked tongue. He tells the Aborigines that he will give them certain Mr Dowding accused every Liberal Party things and then acknowledges with approval the member in this House of being a member of the decision of the Commonwealth Government. Let League of Rights and of making payments to Mr us consider the performance of the Minister in this McDonald. Mr Dowding then called Mr House tonight. He shouted to Mr Moore when he McDonald a semi-lunatic. I do not know the state was on his feet that he was a liar regarding the of Mr McDonald's mind. Port Hedland meeting. We later learned that Mr Hon. Robert Hetherington interjected. [Wednesday, 8 August 1984]52 523

Hon. A. A. LEWIS: I have read many books approach to the Federal Government asking it to which I found difficult to read and I have listened withdraw the legislation. to many speeches which I did not comprehend, Hon. Mark Nevill: How about a bipartisan ap- especially from ALP members. Mr Dowding proach on land rights? called Mr McDonald a semi-lunatic after his having told us the story about the meeting in Port Hon. A. A. LEWIS: If the member would like Hedland. Whose integrity and credibility are at me to get into discussion on land rights, I will. In stake? Mr McDonald's or the Minister's? 1 would fact, I believe I should do so because of the inter- say the Minister's. jection. I do not believe there is any such thing as land rights. I believe in land tenure and that land In the past, the ALP has been noted as the tenure should be equal for all people within greatest racist party in Australia. The Brand Lib- Australia. There should be no special land tenure eral Government allowed Chinamen to work in for any section of the community. mines and the Japanese to drive machinery and Hon. Mark Nevill: That could be the basis of a become houseboys. It was a Liberal Government which removed the restrictions in those areas. Mr submission to the Seaman inquiry. Dowding said that we should be patient and The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Hon. D. J. reasonable. We can remember how patient and Wordsworth): Order! Hon. Mark Nevill should reasonable Mr Dowding was when in Opposition. stop interjecting and leading the speaker away He was chucked out a couple of times for being from the amendment. reasonable and patient and for his abuse of Minis- Hon. A. A. LEWIS: I understand that the ters. terms of reference of the Seaman inquiry would Hon. Graham Edwards: Boring. not have allowed me to put forward that proposition. I was talking about land tenure and Hon. A. A. LEWIS: I am glad the member is that was totally different from the reference made bored because it shows the attitude of ALP mem- by Mark Nevill. I wanted to make all people equal bers to a serious problem. Mr Edwards is bored which is totally different from the terms of refer- with the amendment moved by his own Minister. I ence of the Seaman inquiry. am glad that the member will talk to the amend- ment. I refer once more to Mr Dowding's amendment, particularly the second paragraph referring to the Hon. Graham Edwards: I do not hold myself to constitutional duty of the State Government to be a pretender. You are only on your feet to deni- protect the rights and interests of all its citizens. grate the Minister. You use any excuse you can to He then ruins it by referring to the specific do so. interests of State legislation for the protection of Hon. A. A. LEWIS: I am not denigrating the Aborigines. By putting that in, is he making Abor- Minister; I am querying his integrity. I am not igines different from everybody else? I believe he attacking the Minister and if I wanted to do so I is and I do not believe he should. He also refers to would use totally different words which probably our supporting the Government's endeavour to the Deputy President would not allow. reach a just settlement with the Aboriginal com- munity that will not impede the construction of I am asking this House to look at the credibility the Harding River Dam. I could go along with the Minister who moved this amendment. His of the first part of the paragraph because I think it is credibility is already minus 50 per cent because of marvellous, I have always had a wonderful rapport his completely unwarranted attacks on Hon. Phil with the Aboriginal people. I have never lied to Lockyer and Hon. Norman Moore, his personal them or told them stories about what I would give attacks on the Chair, and his petulant behaviour. them or what I would not give them. I have had an He has moved an amendment applauding the swift honest rapport as a person who has been working and successful action by the State Government to with them over a number of years and whom they ensure that the claims did not halt the project. If it believe to be trying to do the best he can for them. had not been for the Federal Government, there The paragraph then continues with the usual ALP would have been no claims. nonsense and calls for the establishment of a joint To revert to this substantive motion, I indicate Commonwealth working party to further consider that Mr Moore is asking members to get together the operation of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait in a bipartisan approach to the Federal Govern- Islanders Heritage (interim Protection) Act in ment, and ask for the withdrawal of this interim States where legislation already exists for the pro- Bill. At no time in his speech before he moved the tection of Aboriginal sacred sites. In his speech, amendment did the Minister say that he opposed the Minister led us along a devious path and that. He then said that he opposed a bipartisan started quoting the Queensland situation. I under- 524 524COUNCIL] stand that Queensland has a minute portion of ister should come here and denigrate personally, in freehold land and the Aborigines and Torres a general sense, all the Opposition and, in an indi- Strait Islanders were not going to get freehold or vidual sense, two or three Opposition members? inalienable rights. Mr Dowding was again leading HeI then walked out of the House, as is his wont, the House astray because he does not understand without answering one question advanced in the the Queensland legislation. It is interesting to note motion. Finally, he dropped himself right down that the Aboriginal people are now coming out the gurgler as far as the Aboriginal people are and saying that both the State and Federal concerned with the insertion of the first paragraph Governments are letting them down and have not in his amendment. kept their promises. I watched Rob Riley on the There is no way this House can support the news tonight saying virtually the same thing; he amendment seems to think the National Aboriginal Confer- ence is finished because he cannot trust the Amendment put and negatived. Government. He virtually said that previous Governments had not given them all they asked Debate (on motion) Resumed for, but at least they knew where they stood. There HON. N. F. MOORE (Lower North) [9.03 was not the double standard of the ALP-the p.m.]: Now that the House has rejected the silly straight apartheid party. The Aboriginal people amendment of the Minister, I shall exercise my have woken up. right of reply on the substantive motion. I do not wish to take a great deal of time, because my The other matter I deplore is the use of that Fine colleague, Hon. Phil Lockyer, has very bushman, Ernie Bridge, to do all the work in the competently responded to many of the outlandish north, and other places, for the Ministers who are remarks made by the Minister. However, I shall not game to front up anywhere. Mr Wilson is the make a couple of points very clear. Minister with special responsibility for Aboriginal Affairs. He will go to Collie to talk about housing This Minister has resorted to the very same without telling Hon. Bill Stretch or me. He will go tactics to which the Federal Minister has resorted; anywhere without telling us. He has shocking that is, to call anybody who opposes his point of manners! However, when he was invited to talk view a racist, or associated with the League of about the Aborigines in Port 1-edland, where was Rights, or extremely right-wing, a mad radical, a he? He sent Ernie up there. fascist, a Nazi, or whatever one likes. That is the sort of language they toss around when anybody Hon. N. F. Moore: It wasn't just Port Hedland, disagrees with them. either. I refer to a classic cartoon which appeared in Hon. A. A. LEWIS: It was typical. Indeed, a the newspaper the other day and in which the Minister in this House has not given local mem- Federal Minister (Mr Holding) was shown telling bers advance warning of his visits; but that is his adviser to keep shouting "Racist!" until he another matter. could think of something else to say about land I would love to hear who these "notable excep- rights. Mr Dowding has done the same thing. tions" among the Liberals are. I would love to I responded to Mr Dowding's comments by way know whether, if I wanted to make a submission to of interjection when he was speaking, but I want the Seaman inquiry on no land rights or the to make it clear to the House that I am not, have granting of a different land tenure, I would be never been, and never intend to be a member of empowered to do so. I would love to hear someone the League of Rights and for Mr Dowding to say from the ALP explain to me the compensation that I am is absolutely and totally incorrect. angle, because Mr Dowding glossed over it very When I talk about land rights, one thing I know quickly and Mr Lockyer reminded him about it. 1, for certain, when I express the point of view of the like Mr Lockyer, would be astounded if the aver- Liberal Party, is that the vast majority of people in age Aboriginal of my knowledge did not believe this State and country agree with what I am say- ".compensation" meant money. ing. How can one replace a significant site? How Hon. Peter Dowding: Do you dissociate yourself can one award compensation? If a significant site from Mr McDonald? consists of three rocks, does one move those rocks 30 miles and give the Aborigines an extra three Hon. N. F. MOORE: I shall turn to that in a rocks? That would make a farce of significant minute. sites. I believe in significant and sacred sites, be- When I express the Liberal Party's point of view cause I know the Aboriginal people believe in on land rights I am certain from the surveys that them. However, is it not fascinating that this Min- have been carried out that the point of view it [Wednesday, 8 August 1984] 5252 represents is that of the vast majority of As far as Mr McDonald is concerned, I have Australians: They are opposed to land rights as met the man, I have read his book, and that is as the Labor Party refers to them in its platform; far as it goes. Mr McDonald believes that the land that is, the giving of land on the basis of race. rights issue is a Communist plot. He bases his Therefore, when I say that land rights should be opinion on an article printed in 1931 in The equal rights, as Hon. Sandy Lewis quite Workers Weekly circulated by the Communist magnificently pointed out, 1 mean that there Party at the time. should be no such thing as land rights. Land rights Hon. Peter Dowding: That is pretty reliable. should mean equal rights and the same tenure R-on. N. F. MOORE: I am talking about Mr should be available to all Australians. McDonald. The Minister asked me to do so. In I also make the point that the Liberal Party is this newspaper, it says that the Communist Party not associated with the League of Rights. The strategy for the destabilisation of Australia was to League of Rights, as I understand it, is an inde- give large tracts of land to Aboriginal people and pendent organisation and there is certainly no as- then to give them sovereignty over that land to set sociation between the Liberal Party and the up Aboriginal nations, for them to have a treaty League of Rights. with Australia, for them to have their own army, etc. I shall send a copy of this to the Minister so The Liberal Party is not associated with unrep- that he might read it. resentative groups, as Mr Dowding seems to insist. Mr McDonald then claims he was a member of I asked a question of Mr Dowding by way of the Communist Party for a considerable number interjection and he did not answer it. I asked him of years and he now sees the land rights argument who wrote the article in The Bulletin from which and issue as being a direct result of a programme he quoted in his speech. Perhaps if I can attract set up by the Communist Party. That is the basis his attention, by way of interjection, he might tell of his argument and his book. The Minister can me the answer to that question. read it as I can. Hon. Peter Dowding: It is by a Mr Anthony Hon. Peter Dowding: Do you support it? Hill. Hon. N. F. MOORE: Whether Mr McDonald Hon. N. F. MOORE: I thought it might have is right, I do not know, because I do not know been one of his supporters who writes those sorts anyone in the Communist Party. of articles. Hon. Peter Dowding: Do you know Mr Hon. Peter Dowding: Well, it wasn't, was it, so McDonald? there! Hon. N. F. MOORE: I have met him. Hon. N. F. MOORE: Well, I do not know about Hon. Peter Dowding: Have you travelled with that. I shall check out that article. It sounds like it him? Have you been to his meetings? could have been written by Jan Mayman who Hon. N. F. MOORE: I have not been to any of writes articles in newspapers. his meetings. Several members interjected. Hon. Peter Dowding: He went through your Hon. N. F. MOORE: Some of the articles she electorate with your approval. Who funded him writes are nonsense;, they are not true. She wrote through your electorate? an article in The Age which was clearly not true. Hon. N. F. MOORE: Anyone can go through When I asked questions in the House about it, the my electorate. Even Mr Dowding can go through Minister refused to answer them. That was with my electorate if he wants to get off his backside. respect to Noonkanbah. Hon. Peter Dowding: Who funded him? We have said constantly that the Liberal Party Hon. N. F. MOORE: I have never given Mr did not make a submission to the Seaman inquiry McDonald one red cent, if I can put it that way. because the terms of reference precluded it from doing so. IHIn. Phil Lockyer has pointed out Hon. Peter Dowding: I don't believe the Liberal clearly that it is a simple fact that the Seaman Party has not been funding him; you will not even inquiry was set up to decide how land rights would dissociate yourself from him. be introduced, not whether there should be land Hon. N. F. MOORE: Mr McDonald may well rights. Because our attitude is that land rights are be right. The land rights issue may well be a racist, we are opposed to them; therefore, we did Communist plot, but [ do not know. Therefore, I not make a submission. That is not unusual. Oppo- do not associate myself with Mr McDonald's point sitions very rarely make submissions to inquiries of view, simply because I do not know. Many that have been set up by Governments. people in the community believe he is right. They 526 526(COUNCIL] believe it is a Communist plot and a lot of the ills How that means they do not support us, I do not facing this country are as a result of Communist know. Party activity; but I do not know. Hon. Mark Nevill: How come they made a sub- It is interesting that, a couple of years ago when mission to the inquiry? the World Council of Churches visited Australia Hon. N. F. MOORE: They had no chokce and to look at Aboriginal poverty, the delegation was members opposite know darned well they had no led by an Elizabeth Adler who works for the choice. The Labor Party made sure they had none. World Council of Churches Unit to Combat Racism. She comes from East Germany. The In a humorous way, Mr Dowding told us to be Government of East Germany does not pour out patient. I suggest he tell Mr Riley to be patient, large sums of money to Christian organisations to because Mr Riley, Mr Yu, and all the other people do good deeds around the world. involved in the Aboriginal movement are finding it very difficult to be patient. It pours out money for groups to spread its propaganda and put across its own point of view. I draw members' attention to an article which Whether that is a Communist plot, I do not know, appeared in The West Australian of 7 August last, but there is Communist money behind the World under the heading "Canberra rejects bid to halt Council of Churches which is being used in dam". It states- Australia to cause trouble and which was behind However, the decision was immediately the Noonkanbab and Arakun-Mornington Island condemned by the National Aboriginal Con- issues. So there is money coming through the ference as a betrayal of Aboriginal trust and World Council of Churches which is being used to a demonstration that the Government's pos- cause strife in Australia. Whether that is a Com- turing on sacred sites was a sham. munist plot, 1 do not know. The point is that those That indicates what the National Aboriginal Con- facts exist. ference thinks about the matter and the Minister Hon. Peter Dowding: So you don't dissociate is telling it as well as telling us to be patient. yourself from that member of the League of The Government has had approximately I8 Rights? months since it came into office to do something Hon. N. F. MOORE: I do not believe Mr about this issue, but it pushes Ernie Bridge out in McDonald is a member of the League df Rights. front and tells him to do the talking while the rest Hon. Peter Dowding: He is. of the members of the Government sit back and Hon. N. F. MOORE: He may be; I do not watch what happens. know. If the Minister is saying he has absolute The Government will make up its mind politi- proof that Mr McDonald is a member of the cally when all its chickens come home to roost. League of Rights, I shall accept that, because 1 do Ernie Bridge and not the Government will carry not know, Indeed, he may well have been a mem- the can. ber of the Labor Party. In [act, I would not be Hon. P. H. Lockyer: Mandurah does not think surprised if he were, because his job was that of a much of your land rights legislation. union representative. Indeed, Mr McDonald may have been expelled from the Labor Party when he Hon. N. F. MOORE: It is a pity that the Minis- wrote a book saying something about "Australia ter did not refer in his speech to our request to the at stake" or words to that effect. To get expelled Federal Government that it repeal the Aboriginal from the party, he must have been a member. and Torres Strait Islanders Heritage (Interim Pro- Therefore, Mr McDonald may have been a mem- tection) Act. Instead, he put up a proposition for a ber of the Labor Party. He certainly is not a joint working party, a proposition which the member of the Liberal Party. I do not know House has rejected. The legislation is no good and whether he is a member of the League of Rights. the Government knows it. It has even said it is no good. It is unnecessary and superfluous. The Hon. Peter Dowding: He was in bed with the Government has said that it would see what better Liberal Party all last year, and you know it. things could be done than to get rid of it Hon. N. F. MOORE: Mr Dowding said that altogether. What is wrong with both sides of the mining interests did not support the Liberal House agreeing to a request that the Federal Par- Party's view on land rights. However, they do not liament or Federal Government rescind the legis- support the Labor Party's view, either. The mining lation at the earliest opportunity? That would be and pastoral industries and the Primary Industry the sensible thing to do. We would get rid of this Association have all spoken against land rights in obnoxious legislation. I did not go through it in the same way as we have and they support the detail, but some of the provisions and penalties in same idea that land rights should be equal rights. the Act are quite horrendous, and the Government [Wednesday, 8 August 1984])2 527 knows that. The power that the Minister has that in terms of the total additional cost of using under this Act is incredible, extraordinary, ex- ANL compared with international shipping. That treme, and unacceptable. I do not know how the is an indirect cost which is borne by the export Government can sit there and talk about joint agricultural industries of this nation and it is working parties to decide whether the legislation is something which must be borne in mind. It must acceptable, when it knows it is no good and when be considered every time we make a decision. the opportunity is provided to prove it is no good I want to bring to the attention of the House by supporting us, and supporting the motion that some facts with regard to farming incomes in WA the Federal Government repeals the Act. and farmers' future. I know that the other House Question put and passed. has established a committee of inquiry into rura] hardship. It seems to me that much of the at ten- ADDRESS-IN-REPLY: FIFTH DAY tion that is devoted to that committee tends to be Motion focused on the more marginal or peripheral areas of the agricultural regions of our State. Resumed from an earlier stage of the sitting. I have recently taken out some HON. C. J. BELL (Lower West) 19.17 p.m.]: I figures from the support the Address- in- Reply and in doing so I quarterly review, The Rural Economy, which is want to add my comments about the sad loss of put out by the Bureau of Agricultural Economics. Perhaps to bring it home to people to one of our members last weekend. I did not speak enable them yesterday on the motion of condolence but, I to understand what is happening in the rural econ- would like to make a couple of comments now. omy I will take one issue and talk about income per-man-year of family labour on the average Hon. Gordon Atkinson and I came into this Western Australian farm. This is identified place together last year. We have worked together through various sectors: The sheep industry, the on a number of party committees, and I must say I beef industry, the wheat industry, combined wheat found him to be an absolute gentleman and a first- and sheep enterprises, dairy industries, and horti- class person. It brought a great sadness to me cultural industries. One sees such figures quoted personally and also to my wife, a good friend of for average weekly earnings of $300 or $400, and Olwen, to hear of Gordon's passing. one thinks the average person in this city believes Earlier this afternoon Mr Graham MacKinnon that the average farmer has a similar sort of in- mentioned Australian export industries and some come, if not better; in fact, I suggest that most of the problems to which those industries are now people believe that farmers' incomes are higher. exposed. There is a very real problem in this area The BAE statistics for the current year for a that the community itself does not seem to under- sheep enterprise indicate that the average income stand; every time the community makes a decision per-man-year on that family farm is $11 1 or $2. 13 it has an impact on export industries, be they a week. For a beef farm, it is $943 per annum or mining or rural. Every time there is some protec- 518.13 per week. It is $5 339 for a wheat farm or tion imposed for an industry, a cost is borne by $102.67 per week. For a sheep-beef enterprise, it is export industries. It is getting very close to the $1 788 or $34.38 a week. For a dairy enterprise it time when the great rural industry of this nation is $7 628 or the princely sum of $146.69 per week. can no longer bear the terrible burdens being For horticulture it is 5458 or $8.80 a week. The placed upon it by continual demands of other sec- all-industry average is $3 504 and this figure was tors of the community which do not understand calculated from 13 830 farms considered to be the total impact of those claims on the rural indus- commercial enterprises and not hobby farms. try. Their average income per-man-year of family Those industries represent at this stage very labour is $67.38. close to 50 per cent of Australia's export earnings. When people take chose figures and then look at We need to bear in mind every time we make a the investment, they say "Well, perhaps they are decision-whether it is for shorter hours, making huge sums of money somewhere else". I increased wages, or a quantitative restriction on must say that is not true. Farmers do not have steel so that BHIP can increase its price on the annual leave loadings, annual holiday pay, or long local market-it impacts on our export industries, service leave, yet people think farmers are making not immediately, but progressively, as it filters plenty of money in terms of capital appreciation. through the system. Of course, the only time a farmer ever gets capital Many people talk about the superphosphate .hpprccialion is when he sells his farmi-and if he bounty of $12 a tonne, and think that such does that he cannot continue to live on it--or subsidies end with the farmers. The 4ustralian when he dies, and unfortunately one does not en- National Line costs something in excess of twice joy much then. I do not know whether one would 528 528[COUNCIL] appreciate a superior coffin being used to lower Council resolved that property owners be one into the ground! The rate of return by exclud- notified of the declared sites which in your ing capital appreciation for a sheep enterprise is instance refers to an artefacts site and 5.8 per cent and, for beef only it is -3.2 per cent. It registered... seems to me that at that rate it is not terribly good Further information can be obtained by business for a wheat enterprise of 0.58 per cent, contacting or calling at the above offices. for beef-sheep at -1.83 per cent, dairying at 0.04 There are 45 such sites in the Murray Shire and I per cent and horticulture at minus 4.85 per cent. must say that there is a growing concern among The all-up average for WA is minus 1,45 per cent landowners when these sites have been listed that which indicates a very serious slate for a major we will start to see more Harding River-type land industry which is the most diversified industry in claims appearing in the south-west; certainly, our State. It is a matter to which we need to there is no reason that such claims will not appear. address ourselves. Approximately 45 sites have been identified for Further to that, and to add authenticity to it, I various reasons, and they are on land currently read a media release from the BAE as follows- being farmed, in the main, although some of it Latest BAE figures for farm performance involves the Alcoa site. A letter from the Murray in 1984-85- Shire Council which identified these sites and That is to say, the following year. It continues- sought information was forwarded to the Western Australian Museum. Another letter was sent to "The latest issue of BAE trends released in the Western Australian Museum seeking greater Canberra today confirmed earlier forecasts detail. I must say a very curt and unsatisfactory that aggregate farm income in real terms reply was received from the organisation. The let- would be the second lowest on record. The ter sent to the shire read as follow- major factor in this assessment is the impact of disappointing commodity prices. Input Aboriginal Sites-Shire of Murray costs are rising, but at a slower rate than in I refer to your letter concerning the above. recent years. Rural sector output is still The sites listed in our letter of 13 March have slightly above trend, although well below the been recorded by professional archaeologists record of 1983-84. Livestock sector pro- who have established their Aboriginal origin. duction is up marginally, while crop pro- The artefacts. camps or occupation sites all duction is down. refer to scatters of stone tools which are not I will not read the rest of it because it sets the easily recognised by people not trained in the scenario for the financial year 1984-85, the year field of archaeology. If you wish to obtain we are entering, and it is not a pleasant situation. some general information about Aboriginal There is no doubt that the 1983-84 breaking of the stone tools I suggest as a useful reference a drought and record grain crops in the east, have book by F. D. McCarthy: "Australian Abor- camouflaged our real problems., iginal Stone Implements", published by the Australian Museum Trust, Sydney in 1976. The Figures 1 read out earlier clearly indicate what is happening to agriculture nationally, but as That was not what the shire sought. It sought we are the representatives of Western Australian some information as to who identified the sites, for people we need to take into account these factors. what reasons they were identified, how they were I urge the Government, as it makes decisions, to authenticated, and detail of that nature so they consider these factors as time passes. could understand a little more clearly what was happening in its own community. However, it The next item I want to address has already seems to me that the museum either did not want been discussed tonight-land rights. Recently I to understand or was not particularly interested in received correspondence from the Murray Shire being co-operative. Council and was a little concerned at some of the things that were said. This letter was addressed to The next point I want to raise relates to the a ratepayer and reads as follows- Mandurah area. Members know that Mandurab spot for a long time. One of the Dear Sir, has been a hot major problems has been the proposal to establish Aboriginal Sites-Shire of Murray two canal projects close to the entrance of the Peel Council are in receipt of information from Intl. There has been an ongoing debate in the the W.A. Museum relative to Aboriginal sites community and outside for a long time, and the in the Murray District, inclusive of artefacts, Mandurah Shire Council has been at the centre of camps, occupation and burial sites for which that controversy. It sought to talk to many people, the undermentioned property is involved. . but finally it had to make a decision. It called for [Wednesday, 8 August 1984]12 529 submissions with regard to the canals and pro- Hon. C. J. BELL: It is not a last-minute situ- grammed a decision on the issue for yesterday, 7 ation; it has been going on for a long time. August. * Hon. Peter Dowding: It is a terribly difficult In late July, the shire suddenly received a tele- issue. It is not just the canals area; there are many gram from the Acting Premier (Mr Bryce). That issues in the estuary area. was on 27 July. The council had previously Hon. C. J1. BELL: I agree the environmental organised a meeting with the Premier for 18 July, aspects of the Peel Inlet are a delicate issue which but he was unfortunately incapacitated-I do not will require a lot of work, but the EPA says it has believe anybody should have the pain or physical no bearing on the canals issue. I am sure Cabinet discomfort that he has had-and was unable to will have to make a decision about Peel Inlet. make the meeting and went to hospital to have his problem cleared up. The Acting Premier Hon. Peter Dowding: Or course that is a very telegrammed the shire almost at the last minute difficult and sensitive issue. saying, "Do not do anything for six weeks until the Hon. C. J. BELL: The council was on the point Premier comes back, and he will tell you what is of making a decision in terms of philosophical going on". I have here a photostat copy of an policy. The council met last night, and, in response article in the Coastal Districts Times of 27 July to the Acting Premier's request, has agreed to wait which was headed "Deal on Mandurah canals for two weeks. I believe it has also agreed to meet rumoured". It states- the Acting Premier at 3.00 p.m. next Tuesday. MANDIJRAH Shire Council has been Hon. Peter Dowding: And me. asked to hold off on its canals rezoning de- Hon. C. J. BELL: I was not informed about the cision for six weeks . .. and conjecture is rife Minister. It is at considerable inconvenience to in Mandurah that a deal has been made to some council members. solve the political problem of Mandurah's ca- nals. Hon. Peter Dowding: And not inconsiderable inconvenience to me. Acting Premier Mal Bryce, in a telegram to shire president Cr John Cuilfoyle. Hon. C. J. BELL: l am sure. requested "that council defer making a de- The council needs to get this decision off its cision of final approval for either the Parrys hands and get Mandurah going in a common di- or John Holland canal developments until it rection. This issue has been around too long. It has met with the Premier". was a major issue in the last election campaign "it is not possible at this time to give a firm and I am sure it will be in the next. Members indication when this meeting could be opposite may be assured that we will watch with arranged but I expect this could take place in interest the decisions that are made. about six weeks time," the telegram said. Perhaps I should refer to the rumours which It seems ridiculous to me that a matter is within a have been published in the paper, and put them on Minister's portfolio and that he can be oblivious to record as I have quoted from the article. The the fact that it is there. Alternatively, it is too big article states- for the Minister to handle; he cannot possibly be The Times has been told by three separate allowed to deal with it, and it will be the Premier's sources that an arrangement may have been job. The Premier is indisposed, so suddenly the reached between the Government and John whole State comes to a halt for six weeks until he Holland Construction-a deal that would is out or bed. The Acting Premier is incapable of give Hollands some concessions in exchange dealing with the matter. I thought he was there to for a withdrawal from canals south of the new carry the Government when the Premier is unable traffic bypass bridge. to deal with problems. Perhaps that clearly illus- trates the nickname the Acting Premier is getting The sources, which cannot be named, gave in another place of "Handball Bryce". As soon as a remarkably uniform list of components of a he gets a problem it is passed to somebody else to possible deal. cope with it. This is a classic illustration. In summary. Hon. Carry Kelly interjected. -Hollands would be given "a boat ride" Hon. C. J. BELL: No matter what the shire for their marina project at Busselton. decides, it will go to the Minister. -Major construction work at Mandurah Hon. Peter Dowding: That is bigger than a would be available to them. planning issue. That refers to the bridge, I believe. To continue- 530 530[COUNCIL)

Observers said a Holland withdrawal from tract. That is probably good business for the per- the Mandurah canal project would give the son involved, but the Government's objectives Government political protection from local *when it set out to do this have not been stated. environmenial groups, because many Was it to reduce the industry to half its present "greenies" were not concerned about Parrys size?. Ifr so, that is fine, but I wish the Government canals but were concerned that wetlands on had told the industry that was its intent, because the eastern side of the inlet entrance channel that is what will happen. If it intended to reduce would be destroyed by canals. the industry by half, why turn around this year The Times was unable to contact John and issue another 24 licences? If the Government Hollands project manager, Jeremy Randall. wanted to reduce the industry and set up a mech- anism to do that, why put more people into it? The That sort of comment is rife in Mandurab and I Government is contradicting its intent; it must can relate other wilder speculation that circulates make up its mind as to what it wants. in the community. It is doing the community no good while this issue drags on and on. It has been Hon. A. A. Lewis interjected. a hot issue for two years and has been around for Hon. C. J. BELL: That is right. That appears to considerably longer than that. The Mandurab be the intent. Perhaps the Government was setting Shire Council is not being unreasonable in saying out to appease a few individuals. It seems to me it would like to get the issue under way and out of there is a lack or clear objective in what has been its hair so that it can administer its community in proposed. the best interests of rate payers and residents of I have been fairly quiet to this stage about some the town. things that have happened, but I will probably I am sure members would be disappointed if I introduce some of the topics today. I know Mr did not mention the dairy industry. I inherited this Piantadosi would talk about the prices and in- seat from Mr Neil McNeill and it would be inap- comes accord and say that it has been a tremen- propriate for me not to go on for a little while dous success. I do not know; perhaps some unions about the problems of the dairy industry. I am would disagree. fond saying that Mr McNeill saw the industry or Hon. S. M. Piantadosi: Isn't it? from the outside and I know the industry from the inside. It has been my life for a long time. Hon. C. J. BELL: If the member listens for a moment, I will explain to him the situation be- Last year, amendments to the Dairy Industry tween December 0982 and July 1984. The dom- Act were introduced and during the debate I estic wholesale price of butter in Australia raised some problems I foresaw in what was remained constant in that time. That means intended and legislated for. My worst fears have farmers' incomes have remained less than constant been realised. The problems are just starting to because other costs have come out of that figure. surface now, and I believe the recent announce- In that same period, cheese, skim milk powder, ment of the milk price increase sets in motion and whole milk powder prices have remained con- many of the facets of the industry changes last stant. It clearly illustrates to me that a cheap food year. I said then, and I say again,' that when one policy is rampant in the community and costs are wishes to change legislation, one shoul hve an being held down at the expense of the producers, objective. That was not apparent at any stage in and given to the unions, That goes back to the these changes; it was not clear what the Govern- point I made earlier about the indexation package. ment wished to achieve. I am sure many things If it is good enough for workers to receive a wage which are about to occur have not been foreseen increase according to increases in the cost of liv- because the Government did not understand what ing, it is good enough for the farming industry it was doing. which is controlled by the Government to receive One change it sought to achieve was to stop the same consideration. That would seem logical quota negotiability. The Government wanted to tie to me. quotas to the land, but it did not take other steps Hon. S. M. Piantadosi: Did the unions break the and as a result that has negated any prospect of accord? the Government's achieving its objective. Today, the industry is wide open for quota transfers in Hon. C. J. BELL: It seems the Government has many different forms. The provision in that legis- broken the accord. The Government has said it is lation allowing two licences to be milked in one good enough for the unions to receive that in- premises has made it quite simple for even the crease. most elementary mind to see that all one need do Hon. S. M. Piantadosi: You implied the unions is to lease in one form or another, another con- will receive the increase and not the producers. [Wednesday, 8 August 1984J 5313

Hon. C. J. BELL: The farmers have been left reduction in payments to producers in this State. substantially behind. They have received no in- The farmers' return from manufacturing milk crease, but the unions have received the Consumer would decrease from $2.97 to $2.40. Members Price Index increases. would agree that is a fairly shocking situation, so Hon. S. M. Piantadosi: What about the manu- the Government decided it would grab the $3 facturers of the products? million and make sure that the manufacturing milk industry was supported as long as the fund Hon. C. J. BELL: The manufacturers take it lasted. out of the market. According to the industry meetings last week, it Hon. S. M. Piantadosi: They increase their, appears that this year the industry will spend prices. You should check on the manufacturers in about $1 million on two aspects of that. The sum the dairy industry and see how much proflt they of $900 000 will be spent on keeping the manufac- make and what their charges are. turing milk premiums at 27c a kilogram. ]In other Hon. C. J. BELL: That is not the point. It is words, the price to the dairy farmer will drop by available income. somewhere in the vicinity of 30c a kilogram only. It seems we are developing a cross-issue. I am That is not so bad, except for the fact that that is a sure Mr Piantadosi would not have been happy reduction of more than 10 per cent in the price, had his members received the princely sum of and it is a further reduction on the price of the $146.69 per week, with no holiday pay or long year before. service leave loadings. He would agree it would be The industry will also spend $100 000 on fairly reasonable to say that is an unacceptable product equalisation. When I spoke on this matter aspect of the current situation. last year, I said that one of the worst aspects of the Han. S. M. Piantadosi: It certainly is; but I industry in this State was the lack of doubt your figures. competitiveness by the dairy companies. liIon. C. J. BELL: They are figures fromt the Three companies in this State are going their Bureau of Agricultural Economics. merry way with the Dairy Industry Authority The recent price increase in the dairy industry guaranteeing that they will be able to paty and the one last year have indicated that the the same price, no matter what. The authority farmers in this State will receive a very small will give them $100000 to make sure they can do percentage increase. It will be something less than that. That is a ridiculous situation. I think it would a one per cent increase on their returns for the last be well-advised to reduce that amount, take the year; and that is disastrous for the industry. That stranglehold off the farmers and enable a shift will cause substantial income pressures and ad- front one company to another. That appears un- justments. likely to occur while the present situation exists. It appears [hi it will strangle the producers of If that were the only thing they needed to worry Wecstern Australia. about, it would not be so bad; but last year we saw two major increases in Government charges which I give full credit to the Minister for Agriculture have to be paid by the industry. One was an in- for the way he has supported the Western crease of 19 per cent in irrigation charges, and the Australian dairy industry in its current national other was an increase of I5 per cent in electricity negotiations. Negotiations have been going on in charges. The two items far outweighed the price Melbourne today. However, consensus has still not increases that were made available to dairy been reached. It has been proposed that a 2c a farmers in Western Australia. On the one hand, litre levy will be charged on all milk. That is likely there was a very small increase in income in the to cost Western Australia $3 million a year. market milk industry, and on the other hand there Laist yecar we produced 230 million litres of' milk was a substantial decrease in income in the manu- which would have raised S4.6 million. We will get facturing milk industry. some of that back from the manufacturing of That leads me to talk about the other aspect of milk, but the majority of it will go to Victoria. the changes made to the dairy industry legislation That means that the average dairy farmer in last year. It was said that the dairy industry assist- Western Australia will lose in the vicinity of ance fund would be phased out. Currently it holds $6 000. When one adds to that the other loss approximately $3 million, and suddenly somebody which the dairy farmer is presently experiencing woke up to the fact that if it was phased out in one because of the diminution of export returns, and go, what would be done with the $3 million? Al- one remembers that the average dairy farmer in lied with that, was the dramatic downturn in the Western Australia has 120 cows which produce international dairy industry and the consequent 4 000 litres of milk per cow per annum, a farmer 532 532[COUNCIL) would probably be looking at a further loss of they can buy cheaper from New Zealand. They something in the order of $5 000 or $6 000. That, say also that they can buy cheaper from the together with the amount of $6 000 which I pre- Europeans and from the Americans. Frankly, viously mentioned, would result in a loss of around those are fallacious arguments. The reality is $ 10 000 to $12 000 for many dairy farmers in this totally different. The Australian and New State. Zealand dairy industries are very comparable. The Bureau of Agricultural Economics paper Their efficiency is very nearly on a par. However, states that a farmer who has a cash operating the New Zealand industry appears to come out in surplus of $26 000 has to service his depreciation front because it uses an export product on the costs, his operating family labour costs, return to Australian domestic market. Ceriain aspects of capital, etc. However, when the amount I pre- that need to be made known. viously mentioned is subtracted, no money is al- The Australian Dairy Corporation, of which I lowed for labour on dairy farms in Western was a member for two years, borrows money to Australia. That means that the farmer then eats advance to farmers or companies which pay the into his equity. farmers. They borrow on the open commercial As outlined in the farming and wheatgrowing market and therefore pay 13 per cent, 14 per cent, areas survey results, approximately 30 per Cent Of or 15 per cent. Mr Gayfer knows that the same farmers in the wheatbelt area of Western rates of interest and borrowing facilities apply to Australia cannot service their debts. Quite clearly, the wheat industry. However, it borrows overseas. by the end of next year, dairy farmers will be The Australian Dairy Corporation is forced to experiencing the same problem. Mr Gayfer will be borrow in Australia. That is very expensive. aware of the problems experienced in the wheat The New Zealand industry. Undoubtedly, the producers will get dairy board borrows from the through this year. However, on the present cost Government at a one per cent interest rate. When at $500 million or structure under which they are laburing, the one is carrying stock valued $600 mnillion-stock which the Australian Dairy will not be able to continue to do that. They are carries-the difference be- eating up their capital. Corporation frequently tweecn a one per cent interest rate and a 15 per An illustration of what is happening is the de- cent interest rate is quite vast. cline in land values in many areas of Western Australia. The bottom is falling out of land prices. New Zealand farmers are paid by the Govern- Land values in the Margaret River area have ment to spread fertiliser. I understand that they dropped by approximately 30 per cent in the last are paid $25 a tonne. The New Zealand dairy I8 months. That clearly illustrates that nobody farmer and dairy co-operatives operate at very can make money out of farming. When people substantial tax advantages. We can wonder why cannot make money, they cannot live, and so they agricultural co-operatives in Australia have not get out of their businesses. been terribly successful and why they have been so successful in New Zealand. However. New Agriculture is a tremendously important indus- Zealand co-operatives receive greater assistance try, whether it be the dairy industry about which I from the Government. The situation is that, in have spoken or whether it be the wheat or the Australia today, if 1, as a farmer, said I needed a sheep industry. Agriculture is ongoing. If new farm machine for my dairy, I would have to agriculture is carried out properly, it will get bet- offer cold, hard cash or borrow money at commer- ter. If a property is farmed properly it will become cial interest rates. I would then have to pay tax on more productive. Agriculture will be a tremendous those dollars because machinery is a capital in- asset to Western Australia and it needs to be vestment. nurtured. It needs to be cared for. It needs to be understood that every time the community makes In New Zealand the dairy farmer goes to a a decision, it does not do it in isolation. dairy co-operative for his new plant. The farmer I spoke previously of a Federal proposal in re- goes to the factory and says that he needs a new lation to this industry. Many countries throughout item of plant and requests that something be done the world are prepared to subsidise the dairy in- about it. The plant is installed tax free, and that dustry to a large extent. The Federal Minister, to system is a substantial benefit to the farmer. his credit, recognised that not long after assuming I am not knocking the New Zealand dairy office. At least he endeavoured to control the farmers because they are good operators. I have dumping of European cheese in Australia. been to New Zealand and have seen how they Many people in this State and in the rest of operate. We have good operators in this State and Australia say that our industry is no good and that in Australia. [Wednesday, 8 August 1984]53 533

Some people in this State talk about the dairy tonnec. These are substantial problems which the industry and say that the Victorian dairy farmers industry must bear, and the problems will not be are very good. However, let us look and see what overcome if the Government walks away from efficiency means. them. The average dairy herd in Western Australia Today the Federal Minister put forward pro- comprises I10 cows; in Victoria the figure is 103; posals at the Australian dairy industry conference. in New South Wales it is 103; in Queensland 89; He proposes to impose on the industry a levy of 2c in South Australia 86, and in Tasmania 98. The a litre, and says he will distribute that amount to Western Australian farmers have the largest dairy ensure that the export returns are 120 per cent herds in Australia, and perhaps one might say that above those which existed for three years prior. we do not obtain as much milk from the cows as The point I make is that this will cost Western do other States. Australian dairy farmers at least $5 000 each. In Victoria the average cow produces 3 056 The Federal Minister also proposes that the litres of milk per annum, and the average in West- underwriting of the dairy industry will be 80 toS85 ern Australia is 3 127 litres per cow. Western per cent. The wheat industry was underwritten to Australian dairy farmers milk more cows and the extent of 95 per cent, and inflation was forgot- produce more milk per cow. It illustrates they are ten. The Government is talking about dollar re- not too far from the point. turns, not real returns. Western Australia takes second place nationally It means that the Government has really opted as far as the number of litres of milk produced is out of the dairy industry and it will take from the concerned because New South Wales produces one small profitable industry in each of the States 3 302 litres of milk per cow. The dairy industry in to add to the Victorian situation. The Minister this State is efficient and it should not be fore- says that a pool system will be introduced. Mem- gone. It is worth in excess of $100 million and bers would know that as soon as a pool system is those dollars are distributed among Sam established the automatic reaction of every pro- Piantadosi's people, farmers, shop assistants, and ducer is to feel that he will produce to the Point of profits for companies. They all receive a cut of the non-profitability. That happened in Victoria four cake. I do not think any Western Australian would years ago when it was decided to do away with the not be delighted they get a cut of the cake; we equivalent to market milk quotas which existed in would hate to see that cake lost to Western this State, in order to operate a pool system. It is Australia. giving the dairy farmers a margin of 2c to 3c a The problem is that the European Economic litre. Community and America have continued to put in The producers have responded by increasing large numbers of dollars to ensure that the social production to the point where they are saying, impact on the industry does not cause too much "We need some of your cream so that we can trouble. Politically in France the dairy industry is continue". It is a crazy situation. important, and that industry has changed the The Federal Minister's proposals, if they are Government a number of times. accepted, will send the dairy industry in this State I said carlicr that the average Western down the gurgler. It will also send the dairy indus- Australian dairy herd consisted of 110 cows, but try in Queensland down the gurgier. Thousands of in France the averagc is only 10. Thercfore. the jobs on farms, in country towns, and in service price of the product from each cow must be industries will be lost; they will all go down the substantially highcr than it is in Wcstern gurgler and that will be of no benefit to anyone Australia. The French Government does not want whatsoever. In two or three years' time the same the dairy farmer in that country to give up his situation will occur again. It is inevitable because farm and to go on the dole. producers will produce to the point where it is not Hon. D. K. Dans: It does not matter that it has profitable to do so unless they are constrained. destroyed the British industry! The Minister has said that if the industry agrees Hon. C. J. BELL: The EEC's agricultural pol- he will look at an entitlement situation. I must icy cost is $4 billion of which more than half of the admit that the Minister in this State has been firm cost is required to support the dairy industry in the in supporting the Western Australian position, EEC. and I applaud him for his actions. The problem with the Australian dairy industry The producer organisation in Western Australia is not how efficient it is, but that it needs to sell in will accept no levy at all unless a system of competition with European sources. Cheese at- entitlements is introduced. I urge the Minister, the tracts an export restitution of about SI 000 a Leader of the House, to advise his Minister that 534 534[COUNCIL] we, as a Parliament representing the people of been a 20 per cent increase in production. The Western Australia, urge the Government to con- problem arises with the international prices: in tinue with this stance. It is important that 1 000 1981-82 butter was sold in the range if $2 300 to jobs in the State are not thrown away. I have S2 400 per tonne and the present price is only asked the Minister to do that because it is absol- SI 200 a tonne. Every ounce of that additional utely essential. butter is sold at the lowest end of the international niarket and receives the w'orst international price. It has also been said that the product pools will The Europeans have a butter stock in excess of one be abolished. Mr Gayfer will remember that the million lornes. They have recently sold 150 000 wheat industry is trying to operate on a system of tonnes to the Russians at the mi nimnum price. pools. The Federal Minister has said he will do which today is $1 100 a tonne. One can imagine away with that system because of the different the situation that will arise with the bulk export values of the products involved. I guarantee that if price for butter and dairy products. An amiount of he does so, there will be a tremendous price war in 5.180 mill ion lires "'as sold and someithing like the industry and the situation will change dra- 1 000 million litres was sold on the export market. matically, both on the domestic and export mar- The figure has suddenly doubled and the extra kets. If it is allowed to happen, not only Western production is being sold at the worst end of the Australia, Queensland and New South Wales but market. also Victoria will be affected. The average farm size in Victoria is Ill hectares compared to 264 The situation is drastic with regard to farmers' hectares in Western Australia. The farmers have incomes; the price of $3.20 a kilogram will be no room to move and they have no cash reserves $2.65 next year. Any person who suggests that because of the turnover situation. They will that kind of reduction in income is bearable in quickly be financially affected. They have today's economic climate either has his tongue in operated from one year to the next for some time his cheek or is very foolish. and as they move into a period of severe downturn Another indication of the pressures on this in- in farm incomes, difficulties will be encountered. dustry is the temptation to start a price war. Mr It is inevitable that if they go to the bank manager Gayfer will know about over-the-border sales on to ask for assistance during times of financial wheat. Thank goodness we do not have that prob- hardship, he will ask for proof of their ability to lem in Western Australia. However, the Riverina service a loan. As they have no history of carrying area knows about it. An at tempt is being made to such finance, it is unlikely that assistance will be push the remedies over here. given. It is like a new chum asking a finance company for a loan and being asked to demon- The interstate trade in market milk is being strate his credit worthiness. If he cannot demon- mooted and is happening. The situation occurred recently strate his ability to service a loan he cannot bor- when some farmers in Victoria decided to sell milk row money. in New South Wales in contravention of the national agreement reached some three or four Over the last couple of years the Australian years ago. The company bought milk at a lesser production level has risen. One of the reasons is price than the market milk price, transported and that the alternative for dairy farmers is too dread- treated it and sold it to a supermarket in Sydney ful to contemplate. The dairy farming industry is at 9c a litre cheaper than other suppliers. It was carried out in above average rainfall areas and in good business, but it put 40 per cent of the nation's the last seven years only one season has been a dairy industry income into jeopardy. At that time good one. The alternative to dairying is the beef Victoria was emerging as the beneficiary of the 2c industry because the farmer has the structure, the a litre levy; its farmers will make money from this animals, and the know-how to handle the live- levy. The director of the company involved stock. However, when it becomes apparent that happened to be Mr Cain's son-in-law. The follow- there is no likelihood of making a profit he be- ing week he bought milk from New South Wales comes nervous and stays with the dairying indus- to sell to Melbourne. It is passing strange that a try. The situation in Victoria where farmers are week before the Australian Agricultural Council transferring from liquid milk to manufactured meeting to discuss this matter-when Victoria was milk has resulted in increased production of milk. to be the beneficiary of millions of dollars from The figure for 1981-82 was 3 065 million lires the proposed national levy-this company aid this year it w'ill be 3.430 mill ion litres. That is happened to become involved in over-the-border ain indication of the direction in which we arc trading. Pressure was built up in the Press so that beading. Australian production for the low year of by the time of the council meeting it was a hot 1980-H I was 5.18 1 million litres aid the next year issue. It roared around the industry like a bushfire it is anticipated to be six mil lion litres. There has and received the attention of the Press because [Wednesday, 8 August 1984]55 535 everyone likes the idea of cheap milk. In fact, happy time as Governor and First Lady of West- everyone likes to buy cheaper food; and to hell ern Australia. with the farmer. We need to be wary of this situ- As a representative of a large and varied elec- ation because the rural industry is, and will re- torate, it is my duty to bring to the notice of main, important. members some of the problems of this very im- A good deal of hysteria goes on about nuclear portant area of the State. I am a south-west and targets in this country and whether we shall all be great southern member, so I cover the full range of blown to bits. I always query what any foreign agricultural pursuits, plus the coal and timber in- power would want in Western Australia or dustries and the rapidly developing horticultural Australia. It does not want the people because we industry in the south-west. are a lazy lot and we would not work for it. What does Australia have that any other country would Firstly, in the seat of Narrogin, that being want? predominantly broad acre agriculture, we are for- tunately experiencing one of the best seasons in It has great mineral wealth, a tremendous, memory. However, growing these crops is really untapped agricultural potential. We have only only one side of the story. Where we tend to fall touched the edges of this country. Anybody who down, even in a good season, is in the marketing. documented the food-producing capacity of our and sometimes regrettably getting our produce out country would be doing a service. of this country. But there is no point unless it is to be used for My colleague, Hon. Colin Bell, has expounded something. All wars for all time have been about admirably on the cost-price squeeze on our agri- food. The next will be too, God prevent it from cultural industries. I will not go into that any ever occurring. Every war has been about food, or further; he has outlined the problem in commend- about territory; and territory means food. Even able detail. those in the Indo-China region, according to my understanding, have been about reaching the food- I would just drop this thought for those who are producing plains. I may be corrected or shown to still here and awake. While the Hawke Govern- be wrong, but if the details are checked it will be ment and the State Government here are proud of seen that those wars were about food. the fact that inflation is running at only six per cent, I remind members that the cost of sheep That is the only reason anyone would want shearing has risen by eight per cent in the last Australia-for its vast mineral wealth and food- three months. H-ow those figures can be reconciled producing area. Perth might be blown away, I do not know. Sydney and Melbourne might be blown off the map, but nothing will be done which will seriously I refer now to the grazing industry and the live impair the country's food and mineral production sheep trade. This is probably one of the most mis- capacity; and radiation is not exactly [lie sort of understood and misrepresented industries in the thing one wants to eat. rural sector. I have had discussions with represen- tat yes of Fares Rural. i company which runs at A couple of ordinary bombs could normally put sheep shipping collection and preparation depot in most of the important parts of our nation out of my district. They point out quite clearly, and they action. The North-West Cape could be put out of have figures to prove it, that the live export of action if necessary by a few men with hacksaws. wethers will not increase unemployment in the The only advantage of invading Australia would short, medium or long term. Certainly it will not be to get bold of our primary production, mineral add to the abattoir workers' numbers, but it will and agricultural. not seriously diminish them. This must be under- It is not my intention to delay the House any stood. longer. I hope that as the Government comes for- The simple biological fact is that to breed a ward and produces legislation dealing with mat- flock of live sheep suitable for export, even in these ters in our State it bears in mind some of the days of sex discrimination, one must have large points I have made tonight. I have pleasure in numbers of ewes. The very act of breeding these supporting the motion. numbers of ewes is a very labour-intensive busi- H-ON. W. N. STRETCH (Lower Central) ness. Anyone who looks after breeding sheep [10.22 p.m.]: I rise to add my remarks to the knows that one's input in labour and material Address-in- Reply moved by Hon. Mark Nevill. I would be approximately three times that required also express my congratulations to the new to run a flock of dry sheep. Added to that, one Governor, His Excellency Professor Gordon Reid. always has surplus sheep which will not go onto a I wish him and his wife a long, distinguished and boat but will go to the abattoir for local slaughter. 536 536[COUNCIL]

Let us get rid of this dangerous fallacy that the We have to face up to the fact that every de- live sheep shipping business will cut down employ- cision must be balanced and these issues must be ment, because all that a ban will do is remove the examined rationally; so I sympathise with the most profitable segment of the livestock industry Government's problems. The Australian Conser- and put more farmers out of business. vation Foundation has a legitimate place in the community, but it must not be allowed to reach a One can get sick of country members singing stage where it controls the economy, the destiny, their song, but I assure members things have not the jobs, and the future of all our people. changed, and that it is still necessary for the rural industries to be kept strong and prosperous. The Before I leave the seat of Collie, I shall refer to rural industries in turn need the metropolitan Parliament Week and the money which will be people and the associated service industries. So let spent transporting school children to and from, up us stop this "them" and "us" nonsense. This is an and down, and around this place. integrated industry; we need each other for the In itself, that may be admirable, but I draw betterment and the overall prosperity of our members' attention to a very small school which people and State. caters for approximately 40 children in my elec- I would like to take members briefly to the torate. That school cannot obtain washing water coalfields of Collie, because this also has had some for the children, because Government funds are problems. When I came into this House and had not available. The children at the school have the honour to make my maiden speech, one of my drinking water and some washing water, but in regrets was that the Government had not been order to conserve water, would members believe able to negotiate a coal contract between the State the drinking water overflow from the taps is Energy Commission and Western Collieries Ltd. recycled and used as washing water? Can mem- bers imagine the situation when someone's little One might ask, "What is a piece of paper?" It is darling with a runny nose uses the tap? That not just a coal contract, it is an employment con- example underlines the problem which is experi- tract with the people or Collie. I remind members eniced when the drinking water overflow is that Western Collieries operates the only deep recycled and used for washing. mine-I hope the Leader of the House is listening-and it is the greatest employer in Col- When I said to the P & C Association, "This is lie, with nearly 1 000 employees. Without long- disgraceful. In 1984 we must be able to do better term contracts that company will be in serious than that. There must be funds" the reply was, trouble, as will the entire town of Collie. "We have a netball court in bad condition, but we would rather the parents repaired it; if you fix the I hope that, 12 months later, the Government, water, we shall fix the court". All members who the State Energy Commission, and Western represent country electorates would be familiar Collieries Ltd. will get this much-vexed contract with this cooperative spirit and I make a plea to organised, signed, and settled so that the people of the Minister and point out this position is archaic Collie will know where they are going at long last, and should not be tolerated. I hope members of the Government who are here will say to the Min- Still in Collie, we have this equally vexatious ister. "The member for Lower Central raised a problem of building an aluminium smelter. A disgraceful situation. I hope you will be able to smelter is an integral part of the bauxite alumina help him out with it". industry, one part of which many of us were honoured to see at Kwinana this morning by cour- The other problem worrying the people of Collie tesy of the Minister in another place and Westrail. relates to the excellent racing club which was The transport component is now a very smooth reopened recently. Most of the work for that fa- operation. cility was done on a voluntary basis and a most successful opening race meeting was conducted A smelter would do much to aid employment in last year. A superb winter track has been estab- the construction industry in Western Australia lished so that it can be used to coincide with the and we need that help badly. period during which the Bunbury track could not Here I have a certain sympathy with the be used because of the wet season. However, those Government, because, on the one hand, everybody plans now have been clouded, because the club has is doing his level best to establish this labour- been told that as they are only picnic race meet- ings, it will get only one race day a year at best, intensive, exciting project and, on the other hand, no support at all. we have the Australian Conservation Foundation and, at worst, saying, "Yes, it is a great thing; but don't put it on When we deal with the Racing Restriction the coastal plain or in the jarrah forest". Amendment Sill I shall remind members that [Wednesday, 8 August 1984]13 537 these small clubs have a very important place in Some weeks later a fisherman's campfire got country racing and country life. away on the banks of the Frankland River. The fire shot straight up inland on stiff southerly The Ainal part of my electorate to which I shall winds, and fortunately hit the edge of the burnt refer is the magnificent Manjimup-Walpole tim- buffer zone. Had it not done so, we do not know ber country. My colleague, Hon. Sandy Lewis, where the fire would have ended up. made a memorable speech the other night in which he took members tip-toeing all over the The message from that incident is abundantly Shannon golf course and down the magnificently clear. The Forests Department has an efficient, conceived and incredibly badly constructed walks highly developed, and world-acclaimed system of all over that area. buffer zones, excellent equipment, and men of the highest calibre. It is essential that, in the south- However, Hon. Sandy Lewis did not mention west forests, they should be the people to manage the fact that someone had inadvertently run a 20- the fire control programmes in all heavily tim- tonne scraper through one of Bunnings' log roads bered land. without telling that company; but these sorts of things are bound to happen in such badly After what I have said, members may assume I conceived projects. would accept the amalgamation of the Forests De- partment. the National Parks Authority, and the Most of us have had the privilege of driving Wildlife Authority as proposed by the Govern- through that country and we are familiar with the ment. We shall be debating that issue later and magnificent and majestic trees in the south-west. the Opposition will point out the reasons that, However. I remind members that those trees are although parts of the proposal are acceptable, any not only magnificent, but also some of them are aspect which downgrades the Forests Department decaying and dangerous. Some people seem to get and leaves it with much diminished powers, carried away with the concept that these trees in increased responsibilities, and probably less the south-west date back to BC and they tend to finance, is simply not on. In that area of the State, be treated with awe. The fact is that most of those the management of our forests is absolutely essen- trees are well under 600 years of age, which is still tial for the survival of the timber industry and the a ripe old age; but they are a decaying resource. It trees. is plainly stupid and wasteful to leave those trees until they become a hazard and die. Everybody Before I finish my comments on the timber in- prefers to see a healthy, good-looking tree and dustry I should move to the vexatious question of even though people are sad-indeed, I feel a pines. The problem here is one forced on the twinge-when they see these huge trees fall,' it Government by well-meaning but misinformed must be emphasised that the forest should be people putting undue pressure on the wrong places regarded not as a major heritage which will exist and achieving what is going to be a disastrous forever, but rather as a vital, renewable resource result. However, Madame Deputy President (Hon. of living and dying trees which follow that cycle. Lyla Elliott). with the diligence of Opposition Trees must be managed, looked after,' and members and some commonsense from the harvested by sensible, experienced people. We Government, I hope we can reach an acceptable have just such people in the Forests Department. compromise. Again I sympathise with the Government, be- There is no way in the world that a shire like the cause it is being influenced unduly by groups Manjimup Shire, with only 15 per cent of its en- which are not working in the interests of the top tire area rateable and the rest Crown land, etc., management of our forests. We have the un- can afford to see its developed and presently rate- healthy move towards closing up everything, keep- able land resumed and turned into Crown land or ing our hands off everything, and not burning whatever for the growing of pine trees. We would anything. welcome an economic, integrated pine industry in the Manjimup Shire, but not at the expense of the We very nearly had a tragedy in Walpole last agricultural land. The shire encompasses some of December. It was averted only through the inter- the best horticultural country in Western vention of the members in the area who prevailed Australia, with an assured rainfall, a rapidly upon the National Parks Authority to get together developing marketing expertise, top production with thc Forests Department and burn some bush figures and, we hope, with some more diversifi- around the Walpole townsite. As soon as thc cation in the processing area, it might even get the National Parks Authority made it possible. cannery into a profitable situation. By all means officers of the Forests Department took in their let us have pines, but let us have them on the equipment to do that job. degraded land and fire damaged Crown land, not 538 538[COUNCIL] on the alienated freehold land of which the shire is or not, is the encroachment of wild pigs into the so short. area. Despite questions asked in the House and Something which needs to be understood and despite representations made, we are having ter- emphasised is the role of woodchipping in the rible trouble controlling them. They breed ex- Manjimup area. This industry is one of those tremely quickly and I cannot describe the amount emotional operations, and no doubt many mem- of damage they can do. Members who have seen bers have been down there and felt the whole the damage know the problem I am talking about. building shudder as enormous logs go through the We can have a beautiful paddock of pasture one chipper at a steady and inexorable speed. 1 reel morning and enjoy it during the day, but at night some anguish for the trees and a certain sympathy the pigs can come in and plough it down to 12 for the conservation movement; but the trees inches or less. involved are the rubbish of the forests being -Ian. H. W. Gayfer: And they carry diseases. turned into a marketable and useful product rather than being burned or disposed of in some Hon. W. N. STRETCH; I make the point that other uneconomic way. Without a woodchipping where the Government takes over land it can actu- industry to get rid of this waste timber it would ally create an environment that causes the prob- not be possible to regenerate the karri forest, be- lem. What we cannot get through to the Govern- cause karri cannot regenerate without clear, open ment is that if it creates the environment and that sky above it. It certainly does not grow well any problem, surely it has a responsibility to help the other way. So we can thank the chip mill for the landowners overcome that problem. It is no good fact that we have those excellent regenerating the Government's saying that the farmers have stands of timber in the area. that problem and they will have to handle it, be- cause for the reasons Mr Bell pointed out so ably, I have already touched briefly on the horticul- we cannot go on loading the costs onto farmers, tural industry in the area, and it is certainly a very because they cannot take much more. exciting prospect around Manjimup. I have attended several meetings of the growers there, Another problem causing considerable trouble and I know them to be an enthusiastic, highly is the transport system in the south-west and the intelligent, and very export-orientated group of great southern. Up to six weeks ago the south-west people who will go a long way. They will need a lot was probably in just as much strife as the great of support from all their parliamentarians, and I southern, but now, because of the deregulation of believe they are getting that. We can expect great most of the timber cartage, we are over that prob- things of that industry, simply because its mem- lem. However, the people in the great southern are bers intend to concentrate on ex port still faced with the difficulties of the deregulation competitiveness. It has an exciting time ahead of it process. and I am proud to be part of the development as a The previous Minister for Transport set the local member of Parliament. State on the road to deregulation, and his work Right through the area we have an awakening was accepted. It was just one of those difficult of the tourist potential, and tourism is one of our things we had to go on with. There was going to be most interesting industries. Everyone is learning, pain and trauma involved, but that had to be faced not only from his own mistakes, but also from in the long-term interest of the continuation of the mistakes made in other countries. We believe we industries in the area. It is never easy to make have some of the most exciting scenic country in these decisions, but to the credit of the present the world, from the tall timber areas right down to Minister he has stuck to his guns. His decisions the south coast. Many people in the area are work- have has caused great dislocation among railway ing hard in their individual bureaus to develop this workers. H-on. Sandy Lewis andA. represent an tourist potential and to keep those outside dollars area in which perhaps 200 families are affected. coming to the area. We are also delighted to see However, all members of all organisations and the Greenbushes tin mining operation suddenly instrumentalities are doing their best to resettle cranking up again owing to the increased demand the people affected. It will require a great input for tantalite. from the Government and a sympathetic ear if we All this gives some idea of the importance of the are to help those people settle into different area and the reasons for bringing forward prob- occupations and in some cases different towns. lemis associated wvith it. One stnall but important The tone of my remarks so far has highlighted matter associated with the growing awareness of difficulties in my province, but in many areas we soil management and salinity control is the in- are moving ahead. I am glad to see the growing crease in replanted country in river catchments. awareness in the general rural community of the One of the difficulties we are now facing, believe it care and awareness of the land that the people [Wednesday, 8 August 1984]53 539 farm and work, and the general awareness of all Hon. W. N. STRETCH: It is not a particularly people that they have a role to play. wealthy school. It, like all other private schools certainly, has some wealthy parents but it also has When I first came to this place I said that it was many other parents-as do all schools-who make one of my goals to see all country organisations tremendous sacrifices to send their children to and Government organisations working together those schools. towards a co-ordinated attack on the problems of land degradation and salinity. I am pleased and Hon. Gamry Kelly: You would not call it a proud to say that this is happening and that every- disadvantaged school, would you? one is working together much more closely than The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Hon. P. H. ever before. Lockyer): Order! I suggest the honourable mem- ber direct his comments to the Chair and ignore The other day I asked a question about the the interjections. "Greening of Australia" programme. We have a very dedicated young lady by the name of Terni Hon. W. N. STRETCH: Thank you, Mr Depu- Smith who is based at Dumbleyung in the south- ty President. I will heed your very good advice, but eastern wheatbelt. She is a "tree person" and she I plead that, before people throw brickbats from goes around on a part-time basis talking to shires, great distances, they take some trouble to check farmers, and interested groups everywhere on the out their facts, because the point I am making is importancec of trees. I hope the Federal Govern- that these schools may look "wealthy", but they ment will be prevailed upon to supply enough all have their difficulties and the parents who funds to allow this good programme to continue. make those sacrifices to send their children to these schools do so as a matter of choice. More- Farmers are collectively taking the bit between over, some country parents have no choice. their teeth and making more efforts to form soil I did some checking up the other day and looked conservation districts and to attack this problem, at the various Parliaments in Australia. I think as it should be attacked, on a complete river or members would all be very interested to see where brunch system basis. This augurs well for the fu- people on both sides of all Houses of Parliament ture of the rural industries in WA because as early send their children to be educated, and then come as the 1920s when so many of our areas of land back to me and talk about freedom of choice ver- were blowing away, it was realised that those few sus regimentation. precious centimetres of topsoil were worth more Hon. Robert Hetherington: What does that than all the money in the bank; that the soil indeed mean? was their bank, and that it must be protected and nourished at all costs. If the Government now has Hon. W. N. STRETCH: The honourable mem- to make an input, so be it, because it is not only ber knows very well what I mean. I do not think I the farmer's bank, but the country's bank, and no need to spell it out to one as intelligent as the effort should be spared to ensure that those groups honourable member. receive all the support that they need. Hon. H. W. Gayfer: There would not have been Another problem that needs to be mentioned any possible chance of receiving a decent standard has been left out of my electorate roundup because of education a few years ago, Mr Hetherington, it is a problem that relates to all country people. and you know it. This is the misunderstood question of education The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Order, please! for country children. We have just witnessed a Members will have their turn in due course to battle with Senator Susan Ryan over funding to make their speeches. Hon. Bill Stretch has the so-called wealthy non-Government schools in floor at the moment and I ask members to respect WA, that. Hon. Robert Hetherington: There are some Hon. W. N. STRETCH: I will quote a few facts wealthy non-Government schools. Would you not from a graph prepared by the Commonwealth De- call Geelong Grammar a wealthy school? partment of Education and Youth Affairs in March 1984. Of the Australian schooling budget Hon. Garry Kelly: You would not call it a for 1982-83, 85.4 per cent was spent on Govern- disadvantaged school, would you? ment schoolchildren and 14.6 per cent was spent on non-Government schoolchildren. In 1983, the Hon. W. N. STRETCH: I had the honour to 85.4 per cent figure became 75.4 per cent. Of attend Geelong Grammar Schooi for eight years, State Government expenditure, 94.1 per cent was as the member would probably know. spent on Government schooling and 5.9 per cent Hon. Robert Hetherington: I did not know that. was spent on non-Government schooling. I will 540 540[COUNCIL] display those figures if members want to argue Hon. Carry Kelly: You do not have to fill the with them later. franchise and that is what we are on about. H-on. Mick Gayfer raised the question of Edu- Hon. W. N. STRETCH: Might I remind mem- cation Department savings by the operation of bers, particularly the gentleman in front of me, if non-Government schools, and I refer members to he could stop his doodling for a minute to pay the public sector expenditure on Government and attention- non-Government schoolchildren in the States of Hon. Carry Kelly: I am listening. Australia for 1981-82. 1 regret that these figures Hon. W. N. STRETCH: -that my seat was arc slightly out of date, but there has been no won fairly and democratically against a candidate significant change of rate, although I hope this of his party and another candidate. There will not continue to be the case. In Government was no gerrymander or rigging of the elections schools, expenditure per pupil was $2 076 plus the and it is insulting to me to suggest otherwise. Commonwealth expenditure of $281 giving a total of $2 337 per child whereas in non-Government Hon. Carry Kelly: That is so simplistic. That is schools the figure was $1 186 or slightly less than nonsense, and you know it. half that for Government schools. Thus the year's The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Order, please! saving to the Education Department for each child attending a non-Governmnrt school is $1 151.1 Hon. W. N. STRETCH: It is very much to the am not trying to prove a point about which schools point of the argument! are better or worse: I am just making the point Hon. Carry Kelly: It is not, not the way you that freedom of choice is Paramount and if one look at it. chose not to allow people that choice and to close Hon. W. N. STRETCH: The electorate chose down private schools, one would have to knock up whom it wanted to represent it. another $1 151 per pupil to take uip the extra burden. If we cannot gel washing water for the Hon. Carry Kelly interjected. Chowerup school, where are we going to find Hon. W. N. STRETCH: The member can in- another $1 200 per child when we pick up these terject as much as he likes, but he will not con- extra students? It is an important issue for country vince those people out there in the electorate who arid pastoral children and children up north. Let know they have a free and democratic right to us not get carried away and believe that this idea choose their candidate. I ask the member to bear is buried. Senator Ryan was defeated at the last that in mind when he starts criticising people and ALP conference but "the left" has given warning systems. Those members are doing important that it will not be defeated again. The point is we work to the best of their ability, and their special must be wary; we must be ready to argue this case electorates have special needs. I think it was un- and allow free choice to continue. fortunate that this debate took on that theme. There is a time and place for everything but the I think it is sufficient to make a final point that Address-in- Reply to the Governor's Speech was I was disgusted that the Address-in-Reply moved neither the time nor the place. I support the motion. by Hon. Mark Nevill again picked up the old chestnut of the changes to this Chamber. HON. ROBERT HETHERINGTON (South- East Metropolitan) [11.01 p.m.J: I rise with Hon. Carry Kelly: Long overdue, too. pleasure to support the motion. In 1967 when I Hon. W. N. STRETCH: I thank the member came to Western Australia to join the newly for that contribution. He is awake again. appointed professor of politics at the University of Western Australia, to take his first-year course in Hon. Garry Kelly: What do you mean, politics, I did not expect to see the day when I "again"? would sit in this Chamber with my former pro- Hon. W. N. STRETCH: I think I have given fessor as the Governor of this State. the House some idea of the work involved in look- It gives me great pleasure that Professor Reid ing after large electorates. I hope that those people has been appointed to this high position. It is an who believe we country members are redundant honour he well deserves and it is a job he will dinosaurs, now have some understanding of the carry out excellently and well. He is, of course, a workload that country Legislative Council mem- Governor who is most aware of the duties, rights, bers face and, while we hear Much talk about privileges, and the position of Governor in this better communications and other matters, they do State. I think it is an interesting innovation that not do much to ease our workloads; they certainly we should appoint a political scientist to become help, but they are no more of an aid to us than the person at the pinnacle of our political system they are to any other members in smaller seats. in this State as representative of the Queen. [Wednesday, 8 August 1984]54 541

I have known Ruth Reid since 1958 when Pro- I want to do what most members do and I do fessor Reid, as Dr Reid then, left the House of rarely; to talk briefly about my own electorate Representatives where he was Sergeant-at-Arms because I cannot talk about the Belmont High to become senior lecturer in politics at the Univer- School any more as I used to do in every Address- sity of Adelaide. I know Mrs Reid will do very in-Reply speech. That is one of the successes that I well as the Governor's wife and consort. Before and my fellow members of the old East Metropoli- His Excellency reached his high position I did say tan Province have had: To get the Belmont High to him that I thought he would make the job so School rebuilt. So, we can leave that one as a popular that we would never become a republic, success story. but I am prepared to take that risk. Now I am the member for South-East Metro- I would like to congratulate also Mr Gordon politan Province and it saddens me a little that as Masters on his elevation to the position of Leader yet I have not been voted for by three quarters of of the Opposition of this House. It is not often we my province, because I moved into it in mid-term have changes of this sort. I have known only three through a redistribution. I am facing within that Leaders of the Opposition since I have been in this province one of the worst traffic problems in the place. I wish him well in that position and hope he metropolitan area. I will not vie for that and try to stays in it for a long time. compete with my friend and comrade, Mr I note also that Mr Moore is sitting in the McKenzie, because he might think he is worse off position I occupied when I first came into this in North-East Metropolitan Province. House. I hope it does more for him than it did for The traffic problem in Albany Highway has me, and I will be interested to see how the honour- become quite horrific. The number of cars which able gentleman develops as the years go on. travel down that highway is perhaps the highest in While I am talking about new people I welcome the city. The highway is too narrow; it should have also Mr Malcolm Peacock into the Chamber as been widened 30 years, 20 years, or 10 years ago one of the Chamber attendants. I would like to or even last year, now, or next year. Something say-and there is no disrespect to Mr Peacock; I has to be done soon before we collapse into chaos. am sure he will be an excellent acquisition to the The whole problem of the development of the staff of the Chamber-I think it is about time we south-east corridor has made the position of took a little bit of affirmative action in this South-East Metropolitan Province very bad as far Chamber. I hope the day will come when the as the traffic problem is concerned. I live on women members in the Chamber will be joined by Corfield Street in Gosnells which is about to be- women attendants in the Chamber, because we come a four-lane throughway, if some of the know from our experience of women on the proposals are carried through. It is hoped it will Hansard staff--one of whom is sitting in the take Some Of the Pressure off Albany Highway. Chamber at this moment-that they have given us Certainly the Government is about to proceed excellent service and some of the best reporters on with the connection of Ranford Road with South the Hansard staff. Perhaps the day will come Street, which will take some of the traffic away when we diversify the staff in this Chamber a little from Armadale which would normally go down further. through Albany Highway or perhaps through my Members who have been here since 1977 will street. remember that every year in the Address-in-Reply The Roe Freeway is sadly overdue. I hope I can debate I have complained that the Governor's put pressure on the Government to begin building Speech, which is supposed to set out in some detail this shortly. At present, in conjunction with my the legislative intentions of the Government, was Federal colleague, Mr George Gear, the member too short and not informative enough. This year for Tangney, we are trying to persuade the Feder- that deficiency was repaired. I was glad to note al Government to provide funds in order to build a that the Governor's Speech, read ably and well by second bridge across Nicholson Road which clogs His Excellency, did set out in some detail a rather up, so that there is a great bank-up of cars that massive legislative programme that this Govern- sweep right back. ment intends to bring down this session. I am looking forward with some interest to some of the I must say whenever I come out of Spencer Bills, because I have had some part in drawing up Road into Nicholson Road in the morning I some of them. I have taken an interest in some of always turn the other way because it takes too the subjects which I hope will be legislated on by long to get onto Albany Highway. One of the the end of this session. I am looking forward to a things we need to work towards actively in my session where we may achieve some useful electorate is overcoming the traffic problem and reforms. improving the road system. 542 542[COUNCIL]

It has been sadly neglected for years, but of superbly run school it is worth putting on the course all sorts of problems arise because once record. I hope next year when I have had time to roads are widened in the outer suburbs, problems find more, I will put them on the record, too. I was in the inner suburbs are made worse. Once access interested in the work done in the SPER centre, through Albany Highway or Spencer Road, and and tomorrow I will be talking to Dr Robertson Manning Road through the Spencer Road-Chap- who is in charge of SPER centres in general, to man Road link is made easier environmental prob- find out more about what they are doing. lems are created and traffic builds up in Manning This brings me to one of the problems which Road. Anyone who drives from my electorate or concern me greatly: I refer to people with special anywhere else down the Kwinana Freeway knows problems and to the underprivileged. It also brings it does not have enough lanes and clogs up badly me to a remark made by Hon. Norman Moore on of a morning. I found that out this morning when Wednesday, 23 November last year when he spoke it took me an hour to do a half-hour drive, and I on the Budget. I have mentioned this across the was nearly late to catch a bus to look at a Westrail Chamber to him once by way of interjection and facility. he said he did not say it that way, so I looked to Hon. P. H. Wells: You mean to say they did not see what he did say. He stated- wait? What I have is what I worked for, and I Hon. ROBERT HETHERINGTON: They did, worked hard for it. I am proud of what I have but I was not helped by the wet and conditions on achieved. the roads. I have no objection to that. The member went on This is something we need to look at, and it is a as follows- matter on which I will pressure the Government as Everybody else in the community should be hard as I can to see if we can improve the road required to make some effort if they want to system through my electorate, as I know my get land, houses, or the like. friend, Mr McKenzie, is doing in his electorate, He was talking about Aboriginal land rights at the because the flow of traffic must be better than it is time and I must admit he had been provoked by now. the Minister for Planning, and perhaps in fairness I want to refer briefly to one of the good things I I should put the remarks in context because at the have found in my electorate-not that there are end of his speech Hon. Norman Moore said Abor- not many good things to discover. The other day igines should have land. It went on as follows- there was talk of shifting the SPER centre, which I believe they should have land. is a centre for children with behavioural problems, Hon. Peter Dowding: If they buy it. from Challis Primary School in Armadale to the north-west, and expanding the centre at Queens Hon. N. F.-MOORE: If they buy it. Park. For various good reasons, the Queens Park Hon. Peter Dowding: Of course they people did not want that to happen at their school, should! and I went to see why the Challis people were Hon. N. F. MOORE: I have a property happy to have the centre at their school. because I bought it. I found they were very fortunate in the planning Hon. Peter Dowding: Aren't you terrific! of the school which was in discrete pieces so that You have had all the advantages. all areas looked out onto greenery. Our school Hon. N. F. MOORE: The Minister says architecture has improved considerably of late that I have had all the advantages. This sil- years, and I am not saying it is since Labor came ver-tongued, silvertail from the to Government, because Challis was built before opposite side of the House tells me I have had all the ad- that. I found another interesting aspect: The vantages! What I have is what I worked for, principal, the person in charge of the SPER and I worked hard for it. centre, the principal at the junior primary school, and the person in charge of the remedial centre The next bit interested me. The member went were all women. Lo and behold, the school did not on- fall down. It was not in chaos or run illogically, it Everybody else in the community should be was run superbly. It is a highly-integrated school required to make some effort if they want to in which all the teachers are happy, and the depu- get land, houses, or the like. If we give every- ty principal who is a male, is happy with all of thing to people, it is not appreciated. them. Taken out of context, one might believe it sounds I am not claiming this is the only good school in like those happy young idealistic socialists I used my electorate, but when one stumbles across a to associate with at the end of the 1940s who said [Wednesday, 8 August 1984] 5434 nobody should get anything unless they worked for munity. The rate was nearly 30 per cent in the it. I thought the honourable gentleman did not 1930s and people were utterly desperate. believe in inheritance. I am sure that was not what I have said before in this House that people said he was saying. I might say "What I have, I worked then, as they say now, that they were unemployed for, but some of the things I have I got because I because they did not want to work. However, was lucky". I would not have got them without when the war came, nobody was unemployed. The working towards them. But if the member and I work was there. Some people found their first job had been born differently, in different places and in the Sixth Division of the Australian Infantry perhaps as Aborigines or poor migrant children, Force in 1939. and did not get the schooling we have received, or the parents we have, all our work might not have When we talk about what people have done by brought either of us where we are now. themselves, we have to realise what sort of -plat- form they did it from. Certainly, the platform of We have to be very careful about this; people white middle-class children of white middle-class say we must treat everybody equally. People are parents in this society is higher than that of other not equal, but I believe in equality; I am an egali- people. My children had a better platform from tarian. I want to say something about what I mean which to launch than did 1. 1 had a better platform by equality, and I refer to a remark made by the from which to launch than did my parents. My honourable member on page 5081 of Hansard. He parents had a better platform from which to was referring to Hon. Tom Stephens when he said launch than did their parents, because my ma- "He advocated separate development, which is ternal grandparents started off their married life what I define as apartheid". I want to say some- in a bag humpy working for somebody else. They thing about apartheid. did not have a high standard of living. Things have One of the things brought home to me by that improved. However, there is still room for im- good middle-class writer Edward Gibbon provement. Wakefield in his book "England and America" What we have is not necessarily what we have which was written in the 1840s, was that people worked for. What we have is what we have worked vary in their circumstances and the conditions for sometimes. Sometimes what we have is what under which they are born and some of them can our parents have worked for. Sometimes what we never rise above them. Wakefield was talking have is because we are lucky. Sometimes we have about the Spitalfields handloomn weavers who were to understand why people do not have the things unemployed as a result of the introduction of we have and wonder whether there is something steam weaving and machinery. A lot of them were we can do about it. Of course, that is what people drunk, and people said they were unemployed be- like me are talking about when they talk about cause they were drunk. Wakefield asked the ques- land rights. We are saying that the Aboriginal tion: "Arc they drunk because they are unem- people are not like other people. I am not one of ployed, or are they unemployed because they are those persons who said, atsa member of the Nazi drunk?" He said when one looked at it, one saw Party said, that we should solve the problem of the they had no work, they had been thrown out of Aborigines by sending them back to where they work, they had no wages and very little food and came from. They have been here for a long time. no firewood. For a penny they could buy gin which We are not sure where they came from. They have would make them warm, and for twopence obliv- been here for about 40 000 years. Of course, they ion. So they were drunk. came from somewhere. They were here before my I remember that whenever people, here and ancestors arrived. With a name like Hetherington, elsewhere, tell me that people are to be blamed my ancestors were Norse and settled in the village because they are drunk and that is why they are in of Northumbria. However, that was quite late in the position they are in. Quite often they have the piece. If I were sent back to where I came bought a flagon of oblivion so that they can forget, from I would have to find the place where the for the time being, that life was not meant to be Norsemen came from or somewhere where the easy and for them it is very hard. Quite often one Irish came from because I am a "bitzer". finds widespread drunkenness. That is a sign that Mr Moore, in talking about the Aborigines, there is some malaise or some social evil wvhich mentioned the production, "Children of the Sun". must be made better. I agree with him that it was a brilliant production. Drunkenness was fairly prevalent among the The conditions portrayed in that production did unemployed members of the working class when I paint an idyllic picture about Aborigines' con- was a boy. They did not have much else to do, so ditions before the white man came; they lived in they got drunk. This is not the first time we have some sort of harmony with their environment. I had a 10 per cent unemployment rate in our corn- am not arguing that they are not better off in some 544 544(COUNCIL] ways since we came, but I do know that they are stand English through remedial teaching pro- worse off in many ways. We deprived them of grammes. We try to help people whose culture has their land and their way of life. We rorced an alien been shattered through their relationship with us. culture on them. It may be that, by giving Aborigines land-I do Of course, the people we call Aborigines today, not know what will come out of the Seaman in- are either rullbloods or they are the descendants of quiry-we will begin to help them. I have not a misgeneration between white men and Aborigi- heard anybody suggest that, if we give Aborigines nal women, In other words, they have been put at some form of land rights, we will solve all of their the bottom or the heap. problems. I do not believe that, just as I do not think anybody else believes that. If Aborigines It was advocated in South Australia, about have land rights, they will not go back to their 1836, that Aboriginal children should be primitive, idyllic society. To say that is to say that separated from their parents and trained as ser- the English people would go back to Druidism. vants. Or course that was all they were regarded Once one culture has been mixed with another as being good for! That was advocated in the same culture, the people cannot revert to what they way as it was advocated by the Bishop of London were before. I think we all agree about that. around the same time that working-class children should be separated from their parents so that However, one can do something to give the they could be trained as servants. Servants were dispossessed some feeling of belonging, some dig- needed in those days. One had to have them and nity, and some worth so that they can ind them- that was a way of getting them. That idea did not selves and come back to join us. It would not be by work terribly well with the Aborigines. assimilating them, but by letting them integrate with us when they are ready. All I am saying is that, unlike our ancestors, the ancestors of the Aborigines did not come here This is one of the reasons I am very distressed because they wanted to join the Australian way of when I hear not only Hon. Norman Moore-who lire. They had their own way of life and we joined has got it from other people-but also others them. They are difrerent. talking about apartheid. The argument is that if we give land rights, we are putting up a system of If one advocates treating them differently, then apartheid or separate development. Although I they should not be treated differently on the know people do not mean it that way, it is, in fact, grounds of race, but because they were the first a form of intellectual dishonesty because it is one people here. I suggest to Hon. Norman Moore thing to define apartheid in the original meaning that every time he talks about racism, he is doing of the Afrikaners' word, but it is another thing to the very thing that he accuses the Labor Party of think of apartheid with all the connotations it now doing; namely, inflaming racial unrest. I suggest has. that he think twice about that and stop it in the same way that I think Professor Geoffrey Blainey, I have an advantage over Mr Moore and, I whom I knew many years ago, should have think, over the Leader of the Opposition in this thought twice before he made his remarks which House, because I am older than both of them, and inflamed racial hatred. this means that I can remember things which they were not necessarily here to remember. Hon. N. F. Moore: Surely we can talk about it without inflaming the situation. Perhaps you are Hon. N. F. Moore: It is not always an advan- inflaming me. tage. Hon. ROBERT HETHERINGTON: I would Hon. ROBERT HETHERLNGTON: It is not not be surprised. That would not worry me unduly, always an advantage, but it is sometimes useful. I because if the honourable gentleman is inflamed, I can remember when Mr Malan first became know he can cope and will recover in due course. Prime Minister of South Africa and with Mr However, some people will not recover from that Verwoerd as, I think, his Minister for Defence, he type of inflammation, because the racial hatred set up the system of apartheid, or separate devel- that has been inflamed may be such that it will opment, it sounded beautiful. They were going to destroy people. divide the country up and let the people develop. When we look at people who for various separately. That concept has been carried on reasons, are below the platform from which the since, although it has not worked very well. rest of us have launched, and who are there When we talk about apartheid these days we through no fault of their own, we have to see talk about apartheid in South Africa and the word whether we can help them. We help people who has that emotive connotation. Apartheid is what are chronically ill by providing medical schemes. the South Africans have and if we, on this side of We try to help migrant parents who do not under- the House, are accused of apartheid-people are [Wednesday, 8 August 1984]54 545 saying that although they may deny it-it would Hon. ROBERT HETHERINGTON: Not all mean we are just like the South Africans, and that that much different. There is still tremendous suf- is not true. fering and it is still exploitation of black labour. I I do not mind people criticising the Govern- give them some credit, but I will not accept that ment's policies in other ways, but I do object to the forward steps are massive. I do not want to this form of criticism. argue about that, I just want to tell the House what apartheid means in South Africa. Apartheid in South Africa means that out of a population of about twenty-four and a quarter Nobody has proposed that for Aborigines in million, approximately four and a half million are Australia. The people who believe in land rights white, nearly three million are coloured-that is have given Aborigines the vote. The people who the original Khoi Khoi or bushmen who believe in land rights might want to keep white intermarried with Europeans-nearly one million people out of Aboriginal lands, but they do not are Asians, and black Africans total sixteen and a want to keep the Aborigines out of white lands. quarter million. So in South Africa, in the name of They do not want to stop the Aborigines separate development, the country is divided into integrating if they want to. They want to give South Africa and Bantustans. them freedom. Eighty-seven per cent of the land went to South If members opposite want to argue about this Africa and about 13 per cent went to the policy, it is fine, but at least argue it honestly. I Bantustans-to the 16 million! Of course, all six- would suggest that every time people say, teen million do not live in the Bantustans because "separate development means apartheid", they are they cannot. The number of black Africans who using an emotional and dishonest term. I ask are involved in the South African economy is members who use it, particularly the Opposition growing daily, and about half the Africans live out spokesman on Aboriginal Affairs, to think about it of the Bantustans although they are not citizens of very carefully because I am serious about it. I am South Africa. not playing any politics. I am speaking from the The South African Government now has three heart and speaking about something I mean very Parliaments, one for the whites, one for the sincerely. I am really upset about it. That is coloureds, and one for the Asians and the black honest, and I sit and brood about it because I Africans belong to the Bantustans, but they are think it is muddying the whole issue. allowed to carry their passes and go into South I do not think the policies are 'racist. Next we Africa to work. will be told that our policy for women is sexist-I What the Bantustans do is allow people to till suppose that will be said. I am a bit odd and I their land, overtill it and get some subsistence believe in land rights, feminism, and all sorts of from it-they can get some food-but the men things which are frowned upon these days. but have to look elsewhere for work. They can carry they come from my belief in the essential equality with them some of the food when they go into of humanity of all men and women. I believe that South Africa to earn money to buy. Therefore, as far as possible we should all be encouraged, part of their subsistence is paid by the overworked allowed, and helped to develop all our capabilities. Bantustans and part of their subsistence is from I know we cannot do all of that yet, but we can do working in the mines or elsewhere. better than we are doing. In other words, apartheid, which is lauded as I also believe that in these very difficult prob- separate development, is a way of making sure lems which are associated with racial differences, there is a constant source of cheap black labour old persecutions, hatreds, and all the feelings that and it does not give the black Africans any politi- have grown up, people are going to make mistakes. cal rights whatever. That is apartheid and that is Some people will get too excited about it, some what the former Liberal Prime Minister of people will move in to exploit the situation for Australia, Mr Malcolm Fraser, to his eternal their own ends; and all sorts of things will happen. credit, opposed. That is what he was against. It is We have to tread very carefully and, as the Minis- what we, in the Labor Party are against, and I ter for Planning said, we have to be very patient. I hope it is what the members of the Liberal Party believe that if we do all these things, eventually we are against. will finish up with some kind of decent, egali- tarian. multicultural society, which will not have Hon. P. H. Lockyer: Don't you agree that enor- mous steps have been taken in South Afica for apartheid in it. the benefit of the Bantustans in the latter few I hope that no-one ever has the bright idea that years. It is much different from what it was Five we can use Aborigines as cheap labour because years ago. they are living within their own lands. If that (18) 546 [COUNCIL] happens we will be developing something which ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE: SPECIAL looks like apartheid and I would have to oppose it. HON. D. K. BANS (South Metropolitan- It gives me great pleasure to support this motion Leader of the House) [11.40 p.m.]: I move- of thanks to the Governor and loyalty to Her Maj- That the House at its rising adjourn until esty the Queen. Tuesday, 14 August, at 2.15 p.m. Debate adjourned, on motion by Hon. P. H. Question put and passed. Wells. House adjourned at 11.4) p.m. [Wednesday, 8 August 1984] 5474

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE HEALTH: MEDICAL PRACTITIONERS Osborne Park and Wanneroo Hospitals POLICE: VANDALISM 16. Hon. P. H. WELLS, to the Leader of the House representing the Minister for Health: War Memorial (1) Is it correct that all general practitioners who applied for sessions at the Osborne 14. Hon. P. H. WELLS, to the Leader of the Park Hospital and the Wanneroo Hospi- House representing the Premier: tal were given a session? (1) Is the Government aware of the continu- (2) Is it also correct that any general prac- ing vandalism, defacing and desecration titioner who currently applies will also be of the State War Memorial in Kings given a session? Park? (3) Will the Minister table a copy of the (2) What action is the Government taking to contracts that doctors and surgeons were ensure that this memorial is not continu- asked to sign for sessional arrangements ally desecrated by vandals? at Osborne Park and Wanneroc Hospi- tals? (3) In view of the fact that in some States of Hon. D. K. DANS replied: Australia and overseas, the main war (1) Yes, subject to age limit of 65. memorials have a 24 hour military or ceremonial guard, will the Government (2) All applications will be considered by the investigate the feasibility of having a appointments committee and guard at the State War Memorial in recommendations made to the Minister Kings Park? for Health. (3) Yes. (4) When was a person last charged for vandalizing a war memorial and what 38. Postponed. was the penalty?

Hon. D. K. DANS replied: SPORT AND RECREATION Football: Grand Final (1) The Government is aware of the vandal- 39. Hon. TOM McNEIL, to the Minister for ism and desecration that has occurred at Planning representing the Minister for Sport the State War Memorial at Kings Park. and Recretion: (2) 1 am sure the member appreciates the (1) Is the Minister aware that question 380 difficulties faced by the Kings Park in August 1981 asked the likelihood of Board in providing surveillance over a the Western Australian Football League park of 400 hectares containing 24 mem- making the 1981 Grand Final an all orials and more than 20 other features. ticket game by preselling seating and The member can rest assured that the standing room tickets? Kings Park Board is doing its utmost to (2) Is the Minister further aware that the ensure that these senseless acts of van- WAFL in refusing this claimed the sale dalism do not occur again. of standing room tickets was not justified (3) The possibility of having a 24-hour as "they did not ensure a prime guard on the State War Memorial has position"? previously been investigated by the (3) In light of the success of standing room Kings Park Board with the Australian tickets at the recent State-of-Origin Army and the Returned Services game would the Minister advise- League, which takes responsibility for (a) what has been done to ensure stand- the memorial. Unfortunately, because of ing room ticket holders could now manpower problems, this possibility has obtain a prime position; and not been realised. (b) whether this year's grand final will (4) A person was successfully convicted and be an all ticket affair? fined $400 in February 1980 for aiding (4) If "Yes" to (3)(b), in the event that all and abetting in the wanton damage to tickets are sold, will the league permit a the Queen's tree. direct telecast of the game to the metro- 548 548[COUNCIL]

politan area as they do to the country (3) If the application was rejected, why? regions? (4) Can the Minister advise whether it is (5) If not, why not? worthwhile for the club to reapply at Hon. PETER DOWDING replied: some future time? (1) to0(5) The member should be aware that Hon. PETER DOWDING replied: the policy relating to the sale of tickets (1) Yes. for WAFL matches is a matter solely for (2) It was not funded. decision by the WAFL Board of Direc- (3) Insufficient funds. tors. The Government suggests that this question would be better directed to that (4) Applications for the current financial body. year close on 30 September and, provided work has not commenced on the project, the application may be DEFENCE: NAVIES resubmitted. Friendly Nations 41. Hon. V. J. FERRY, to the Leader of the FORESTS House representing the Minister for Defence Liaison: Greening of Australia Hon. W. N. STRETCH, to the Leader of (1) In a spirit of mutual co-operation, what 53. usage of facilities are available to naval the House representing the Minister for craft of friendly nations at- Forests: (a) HMAS Stirling; (1) Has the Minister made representation to the Federal Government to have the (b) Fremantle harbour; "Greening of Australia" programme (c) other harbours; or continued effectively in Western (d) any other appropriate facilities in Australia? Western Australia? (2) In view of the importance of tree plant- (2) What conditions Or restrictions are ing in the reclamation of degraded and imposed on these craft using any of these degrading agricultural land, will the facilities. Minister make most strenuous efforts to have Western Australia's share raised to Hon. D. K. DANS replied: a realistic level? (1) and (2) Visits by naval craft of friendly (3) Is a shortage of funds threatening the nations are the responsibility of appro- continuing employment of Western priate Federal authorities. The usage of Australia's two existing "tree-persons"? naval facilities in Western Australia is entirely a matter for the Royal Hon. D. K. DANS replied: Australian Navy, and the use of other (1) Yes. ports and facilities would be subject to (2) To date, each State has received an normal requirements being observed. equal share of funds from the national Visits by nuclear-powered vessels are the tree programme. However, in view of the subject of special conditions relating to great need to revegetate in many areas of safety factors. Western Australia, strenuous efforts will be made to obtain increased funding. SPORT AND RECREATION (3) Federal funding for the part-time em- Tennis Courts ployment of two persons by the Greening of Australia (WA) Committee is 50. Hon. P. G. PENDAL, to the Minister for assumed until October 1984. Further Planning representing the Minister for Sport funds are expected by that time. and Recreation: However, the major problem is that (1) Was an application received earlier this there is no single body in Western year from the Manning Tennis Club for Australia with responsibility for co- the construction of new tennis courts in ordinating the tree-planting activities of Challenger Avenue, Manning? the various Government departments, (2) If so, what was the fate of that appli- farmers, industry, and community cation? groups. [Wednesday, 8 August 1984]14 549

As a consequence, the Government has (2) Will the Minister order an investigation recently announced its intention to in- into the affairs of the CBU and report itiate a co-ordinated, long-term pro- back to Parliament? gramme to revegetate many of the de- graded areas of Western Australia. The Hon. D. K. DANS replied: new Department of Conservation and (1) and (2) A person who is or has been a Land Management will be best suited to member of a union or a person who has tackling this important and ambitious applied for and not been admitted to task. membership in a union can apply to the President of the Western Australian In- Details of the programme are currently dustrial Commission under section 66 of being worked out on the basis that the the Industrial Arbitration Act to deal widest possible community involvement with their complaints against a union. is necessary to ensure its long-term suc- The president may make such order or cess. give such directions relating to the rules of the union, their observance or non- observance or the manner of their ob- ROAD servance, either generally or in the par- Great Eastern Highway: Study ticular case as he considers appropriate. 56. Hon. FRED McKENZIE, to the Minister for Planning representing the Minister for 58. Postponed. Transport:

Referring to question 13 of Tuesday, I NATURAL DISASTERS: FLOODS August 1984, will the Minister advise- Flood Plain: Burswood Island (1) Whether funds will be allocated to enable the combined study to take 59. Hon.' P. G. PENDAL, to the Leader of the place? House representing the Minister for Water Resources: (2) If so, when is the study to com- mence? (1) Is Burswood Island or any part of it a flood plain? (3) If no funds are to be allocated, why (2) Is the area flood prone? not? (3) Have any applications for buildings in or Hon. PETER DOWDING replied: near this locality been refused in the past (1) to (3) The Main Roads Department is on these grounds? co-operating with the Metropolitan Re- (4) Will the Minister table plans relating to gion Planning Authority to determine any flood plain or flood-prone areas on the type of study required and its poss- or near Burswood Island? ible cost. Until this information is avail- able, no decision can be taken on funding Hon. D. K. DANS replied: or timing of the study. (I) Yes. (2) Yes. As the area is outside of the UNION floodway, development is permissible subj ect to approved filling and protec- Carpenters and Bricklayers Union tion. 57. Hon. G. E. MASTERS, to the Minister for (3) 1 anti unable to answer this question as Industrial Relations: building approvals are the responsibility of local authorities. Although flood plain (1) Is the Minister aware that the management issues are sometimes re- Carpenters and Joiners, Bricklayers and ferred to the Minister for Water Re- Stoneworkers Industrial Union is sources or the Public Works Depart- reported to be collecting union dues and ment, this is not always the case. issuing Building Workers Industrial Union tickets in return? (4) Yes. A print is supplied. 5

550 (COUNCIL]

MINERAL: ASBESTOS action does the Lotteries Commission Dump: Bars wood Island take- 60. Hon. P. G. PENDAL, to the Leader of the (a) before the raffle is drawn, and House representing the Minister for Health: (b) after the raffle is drawn? Will the Minister table a plan showing Hon. D. K. DANS replied: the precise location on Burswood Island (a) and (b) If a raffle is being conducted of asbestos material? illegally without a permit, the com- IHon. D. K. DANS replied: mission can take action only if and when This question should be referred to the it is brought to the notice of the com- Minister for Transport. mission. The commission then assumes the oper- ators are ignorant of the requirements ROAD and they are asked to cease selling Great Eastern Highway: Options immediately and regularise the position 61. H-on. FRED McKENZIE, to the Minister unless the raffle has been drawn. for Planning representing the Minister for If the co-operation is not forthcoming, Transport: the Police Department is asked to take (1) Has the Mundaring Shire Council been the appropriate action. advised of any options that the Main Roads Department may have in respect to traffic currently using Great Eastern QUESTION WITHOUT NOTICE Highway through Greenmount? (2) If so, what are those options? QUESTIONS: ON NOTICE (3) Is the widening of Great Eastern High- Redirection way through Greenmount still under ac- 4. Hon. PETER WELLS, to the Leader of the tive consideration? House: I-on. PETER DOWDING replied: Quite often a situation occurs when a member inadvertently addresses a ques- (1) No. tion to a particular Minister when it (2) Answered by (1). should of course be directed to another (3) Yes, with respect to planning issues. Minister of another department. Is poss- However, this does not imply that any ible for that department to direct the construction is proposed in the foresee- question to the appropriate department able future. so that the answer can be given to the member of Parliament rather than the member being required to go through the GAMBLING: RAFFLES whole process of asking the question Lotteries Commission Approvals again. 62. Hon. H. W. GAYFER, to the Minister for Hon. D. K. DANS replied: Administrative Services: I cannot answer that because Mr Wells Further to my question I I of really made a statement. I think he was Wednesday, I August 1984: If a raffle trying to ask whether it would be poss- ticket does not comply with the require- ible for me to redirect a question. I will ments or the Lotteries Commission, what look at the problem.