ISSN 0542-5492

Second Session - Thirty-Second Legislature

of the

Legislative Assembly of Manitoba

STANDING COMMITTEE on PRIVILEGES and ELECTIONS

31-32 Elizabeth 11

Chairman Mr. A. Anstett Constituency of Springfield

VOL. XXXI No. 56 - 7:30 p.m., TUESDAY, 4 OCTOBER, 1983.

Printed by the Office of the Queens Prmter. Province ot Manitobll MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature

Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation

Name Constituency Party ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) Ste. Rose NDP ANSTETT, Andy Springfield NDP ASHTON,Sieve Thompson NDP BAI\IMAN,Robert (Bob) La Vert�ndrye PC SLAKE,David R. (Dave) Minnedosa PC BROWN,Arnold Rhineland PC BUCKLASCHUK,Hon. John M. Gimli NDP CARROLL,Q.C., Henry N. Brandon West IND CORRIN, Brian Ellice NDP COWAN, Hon. Jay Churchill NDP DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent St. Boniface NDP DODICK,Doreen Riel NDP DOERN,Russell Elmwood NDP DOLIN,Hon. Mary Beth Kildonan NDP DOWNEV, James E. Arthur PC DRIEDGER,Albert Emerson PC ENNS,Harry Lakeside PC EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. Brandon East NDP EYLER,Phil River East NDP FILMON,Gary Tuxedo PC FOX,Peter Concordia NDP GOURLAV, D.M. (Doug) Swan River PC GRAHAM, Harry Virden PC HAMMOND,Gerrie Kirkfield Park PC HARAPIAK, Harry M. The Pas NDP HARPER,Elijah Rupertsland NDP HEMPHILL,Hon. Maureen Logan NDP HYDE,Lloyd Portage la Prairie PC JOHNSTON,J. Frank Sturgeon Creek PC KOSTYRA,Hon. Eugene Seven Oaks NDP KOVNATS, Abe Niakwa PC LECUYER,Gerard Radisson NDP LY ON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling Charleswood PC MACKLING,Q.C., Hon. AI St. James NDP MALINOWSKI, Donald M. St. Johns NDP MANNESS,Clayton Morris PC McKENZIE,J. Wally Roblin-Russell PC MERCIER,Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) St. Norbert PC NORDMAN,Rurik (Ric) Assiniboia PC OLESON,Charlotte Gladstone PC ORCHARD,Donald Pembina PC PAWLEV, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. Selkirk NDP PARASIUK,Hon. Wilson Transcona NDP PENNER,Q.C., Hon. Roland Fort Rouge NDP PHILLIPS,Myrna A. Wolseley NDP PLOHMAN, Hon. John Dauphin NDP RANSOM,A. Brian Turtle Mountain PC SANTOS, Conrad Burrows NDP SCHROEDER,Hon.Yic Rossmere NDP SCOTT, Don lnkster NDP SHERMAN,L.R. (Bud) Fort Garry PC SMITH, Hon. Muriel Osbo rne NDP STEEN, Warren River Heights PC STORIE,Hon. Jerry T. Flin Flon NDP URUSKI,Hon. Bill lnterlake NDP USKIW, Hon. Samuel Lac du Bonnet NDP WALDING,Hon. D. James St. Vital NDP LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON PRIVILEGES AND ELECTIONS Tuesday, 4 October, 1983

TIME - 7:30 p.m. MR. T. SOUFI: Merci M. le president. Mesdames et Messieurs, M. le president, bonsoir. LOCATION - Winnipeg Je me presente ici en tant que fils adoptif du Manitoba. Et en particulier, en tant que fils adoptif du CHAIRMAN - Mr. Andy Anstett (Springfield) Manitoba francophone qui m'a accueilli il y a quinze ans. 23 ATTENDANCE - QUORUM - 6 Je voudrais commencer pour parler sur le "bill" Members of the committee present: de I'Acte du Manitoba. Vous rappelez ces deux vers de Louis David Aiel: "Vous souffrez quand un nom Hon. Messrs. Bucklaschuk and Cowan canadien-franc;:ais vivra. Vous tiichez de l'abattre en le Messrs. Anstett, Ashton, Brown, Graham, persecutant." Kovnats, Lecuyer, Malinowski, and Ms. Phillips Pour quelqu'un qui etait venu comme moi vers ce pays plein de promesses pour tous les desherites de WITNESSES: Mr. Taib Soufi, Private Citizen la terre, j'aurais cru que ces vers etaient un petit peu Dr. Vedanand, National Association for trop exageres. Canadians of Indian Origins Je viens ici porter temoignage que durant quinze Ms. S. Stephansson, Private Citizen ans, j'ai assiste sans exageration a une persecution outree de la jeunesse francophone dont j'ai eu la charge. Mr. Chandra, National Association for J'ai enseigne aussi a des Anglo-Manitobains. Et c'est Canadians of Indian Origins au nom de mes etudiants, au nom de la jeunesse que Mr. Georges Forest, Union Nationale Metisse je vous adresse ce soir c'est quelques mots. St. Joseph du Manitoba Je voudrais vous poser d'abord une question qui est Mr. Barry Turnbull, Private Citizen la suivante. Vous qui etes les representants, vous qui etes les elus du peuple manitobain qui representez la MATTERS UNDER DISCUSSION: province, une des provinces du Manitoba, qu'elle est Proposed Resolution to amend Section 23 votre responsabilite a l'egard de la jeunesse? Un of The Manitoba Act ecrivain franc;:ais ...disait: "Nous sommes les heritiers de ceux qui sont morts, les associes de ceux qui vivre et la providence de ceux qui naitront." Je n'ai point trouve ici la verification de ces paroles. Les heritiers de ceux qui sont morts certes. Sommes-nous des associes et en vue de quoi? MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee, come to order. We have Alors ce soir la question qui me vient a !'esprit des a quorum. Before I begin to call on the delegations, questions qui me viennent par esprit, c'est qu'elle a the Clerk has received the resignation of the Honourable ete le role des educateurs durant quinze ans et durant Ms. Dolin. I under Ms. Phillips is to replace her. Can peut-etre depuis 1890 du jour ou on a enleve la langue I have a motion to that effect? au Franco-Manitobains et qu'on les a museles pour que leur langue soit bani de la rue et ne trouve de MR. G. LECUYER: I so move. refuge que dans leur foyer et dans leur coeur. Qui est­ ce qu'eduquait la jeunesse, si les dirigeants jouent avec MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Lecuyer and Mr. un droit naturel et sacre d'une communaute. Qu'est Malinowski. Is that agreed? (Agreed) Agreed and so qu'un pays democratique et libre qui se pretend ordered. justement champion de la moderation et promoteur de Now, I'm going to have to ask the Clerk where we la paix sur la scene internationale lorsqu'il n'est pas left off. - (Interjection)- Order please. We look on capable de rendre justice a une partie des siens. high for all agreements in the committee. Encore une fois, a quoi sert !'education si !'education Mr. Roy Brunka, please, Mr. Roy Brunka; Heather est la promotrice de toutes les valeurs humaines Stone; Henry Huber; Jack Froese; Derwyn Davies; Jesse universelles. A quoi sert la science si la science est Vorst; Ken Morley. revelation de la verite et promotion de la justice. Taib Soufi. Lorsque je suis arrive en 1968, des jeunes de 14 et 15 ans jusqu'a l'iige de 18 ans me demandaient: "Peut­ MR. T. SOUFI: Mesdames et Messieurs, M. le president. on faire des mathematiques en franc;:ais? Est-ce qu'il existe des livres scientifiques en franc;:ais?" Et alors MR. CHAIRMAN: One moment please. Could you bear j'etais tres triste parce que je me suis dit, cette belle with us while members get the receivers. Anyone in province, ce beau pays qu'est le Canada, comment the audience who would like a receiver, who does not est-ce possible qu'on a demuni toute une partie de have one, can sign one out with the technician at the cette communaute fondatrice de cette province, qui a back of the booth. accueilli tous les refugies de la terre, qui etait done Please proceed. aussi le reve de Louis Aiel? Comment se fait-il qu'on

1134 Tuesday, 4 October, 1983

les a mis dans !'ignorance de leur brillante culture, de exemplaire pour l'humanite entiere on se referme et leur heritage qui ne date pas, je le rapelle, il y a un on tire gloire du fait que nous soyons unilingues. C'est siecle, mais qui date de plusieurs millenaires. Comment la une honte pour une nation aussi civilisee et aussi se fait-il qu'un pays aussi civilise, aussi democratique avancee et aussi humanitaire et humaniste que notre ait pu bafouer et mettre a terre les droits sacres de pays. la langue maternelle des enfants dont j'avais la charge. La formation des jeunes exige un appui de la part 11 fallait done, j'aurais pu choisir d'aller vers la majorite des gouvernants. Quel est cet appui? En quinze ans, anglophone et etre peut-etre a l'heure actuelle parmi la premiere fois, il fallait enseigner l'histoire et la les grandes chaires des universitas. Mais mon ideale geographie en fran<;ais seulement; le reste etait chose etait autre. J'etais ne pour donne une education et interdite ou plus ou moins banie tacitement. Ensuite tacher de faire prendre conscience a chaque individu il fallait se battre pour etre francais a 50 - 50. Ensuite qu'il etait absolument unique et irrempla<;able, non il fallait se battre pour avoir le francais a 100 pour seulement a ses yeux mais aux yeux de sa communaute. cent. J'ai commence par leur montrer que la langue frant;aise, Je ne suis pas venu faire un sermon. Je suis venue comme toutes les langues, etait digne de respect et seulement demander au nom de !'ideal qu'on a choisi de vehiculee une culture ou elle a fait preuve justement en tant qu'educateurs que vous tassiez justice a une de genie; elle a donne naissance a des genies dont partie de ceux qui ont tonde le Canada et qui ont tout toute la civilisation humaine s'enorgueillie. J'essayais a fait le droit, meme le droit plus que quiconque, avoir ensuite de leur montrer que dans leurs valeurs d'amour leur culture s'epanouir et se developper. et de fraternite, il y avait place, non pas pour le Je ne suis pas ne francais, je ne suis pas ne anglais. sectarisme, non pas pour le racisme, non pas pour la Je ne suis pas de culture francaise seulement. Je ne xenophobia, mais pour une humanite traternelle, tranche favorise pas une culture au-dessus d'une autre. Ce que et libre. je vous demande c'est que tout simplement de Mais comment est-ce qu'on peut faire passer dans respecter !'idea! politique a savoir que nous sommes !'esprit d'un jeune des valeurs humaines alors qu'autour d' abord et avant tout des et res humains. de lui il ne peut meme pas s'adresser a ces Lorsque j'ai entenciu les plaidoyers qui etaient en representants, ceux qui le representant, tant sur la fait en faveur des droits des francoj)hones, bien souvent scene provincial que sur la scene peut-etre federal, j'etais tres attriste. Bien souvent, j'appartiens a une dans sa langue sans diffultes? autre culture et je peux aussi, j'ai retenu mes larmes, Comment peut-on dire qu'il n'y a pas de racisme, pas pour moi seulement. Mais c'est parce que defendre qu'il n'y a pas de xenophobia, qu'il n'y a pas de dedain? la cause du francais, c'est defendre aussi la cause de Lorsque ceux qui sont soient dans un parti soient dans tous les etres humains. Si par example, aujourd'hui un autre, je ne suis pas ici pour faire la promotion d'un nous demandons a ce que !'entente qui a ete signee parti conservateur ou autre, ceux qui se presentent en le 17 mai soit respectee integralement, c'est pour tant que politician ne sont meme pas capables de montrer que les hommes politiques ont une parole. respecter leur propre constitution. Parce que si les dirigeants n'ont pas de paroles, ne Que doit repondre un educateur a de tels objections? vous attendez pas a ce que les citoyens ne puissent Qu'est-ce que la politique? J'avais toujours cru que la pas enfreindre des lois impunement et ne venez pas politique, comme disaient les Grecques qui ont donne alors les mettre en prison pour des crimes qui sont justement naissance a la civilisation Occidentale, que encore moins grands que le crime d'avoir enlever a un c'etait l'art et la science de mener les etres humains peuple son droit sacre et d'avoir commis un genocide a la vertu et tous les citoyens quel que soient leurs culture! et linguistique. Et en plus de cela, d'avoir pendu conditions sociales au bonheur. son martyr qu'on a jete derriere le parlement alors que Comment ce fait-il alors que les Franco-Manitobains son monument devrait etre a !'entree ici. est eu a souffrir et qu'ils aient eu a se cacher pour Je lui rends hommage a Louis Riel, oui ta vie de Riel, continuer a survivre dans leur langue. Un incident, si en se battant pour sa nation, il se battait non pas vous me permettez de rappeler un incident que ma seulement pour les francophones, pour les Canadians femme a vecu quatre jours apres notre arrivee. Elle frant;ais et pour les Metis, il se battait pour une cause s'etait perdue dans le magasin d'Eaton. Et elle cherchait qui depassait cela. desesperement la sortie. Elle s'adressait vainement Pour un homme sense, pour un vrai politician, dans sa langue frant;aise n'est-ce pas, qu'elle croyait defendre les droits des minorites c'est defendre les etre, elle aussi une langue universelle, n'est-ce pas. droits de tout le monde. 11 n'y est pas question d'esprit Pour demander seulement la tacon de sortir d'Easton, de partisanerie. La question, je le repete, depasse desesperement en vain se refugia derriere des !'esprit de parti, !'esprit partisant. manteaux et se mise a pleurer. Alors, je dois vous poser Quelque chose qui est naturelle doit etre honnete. une question. Est-ce que le gouvernement du Canada, Les citoyens attendant que vous soyez honnetes avec et les gouvernements des autres provinces, sont-ils a eux. ce point-la insensibles pour qu'ils puissent propager Et maintenant je passe, peut-etre, a un autre aspect. a l'exterieur aux autres nations cette affirmation sur On parle de !'inflation, de !'aspect economique. On a laquelle le Canada est bilingue? Chose desespere cede parce que les Canadians francais ont enfin egalement, comment se fait-il que dans !'education decouvert, avec la lutte de M. Forest et puis d'autres superieure dans les universitas, dans les ecoles, alors luttes qui avaient ete menees avant et apres, que la que nous avions toutes les facilites ici pour apprendre Cour supreme pouvait vous faire traduire toutes les diverses langues et nous penetrer de diverses cultures lois et done mener la province a la banqueroute. Mais qui serait un enrichissement absolument incroyable on a oublie qu'il y a des choses qui ne sont pas pour le Canada qui deviendrait alors la nation monnayables; qu'on ne ressuscitera jamais les assimiles

1135 Tuesday, 4 October, 1983

et ceux qui sont perdus a jamais pour la communaute canadienne. Et non seulement pour cela. 11 peut servir francophone et pour la communaute canadienne toute d'exemple face a la Russie, face aux Etats-Unis, face entiere. aux peuples de la terre, comme quoi tous les humains Si un etre humain developpe son plein potentiel, il venus de tous les horizons ont trouve enfin refuge enfin ne tombe pas dans la misere comme les Canadiens dans un pays qui sait reconnaitre et respecter, non franc;:ais l'ont ete. Parce qu'il est vrai, et vous ne me seulement ses constitutions mais les droits individuels le nierez pas, que les Canadiens franc;:ais avaient le et sacres de la personne humaine. niveau de vie le plus bas du Canada, juste apres les Evidemment vous allez vous poser la question: Est­ lndiens, les Natifs. lis avaient le niveau de vie le plus ce que lui aussi veut promouvoir toute une ribambelle bas il y a une decennie. D'ou cela vient-il? Non pas de cultures qui debarquent ici? Pourquoi pas? dirais­ qu'ils etaient moins intelligents, non pas qu'ils etaient je. Si par exemple chacun peut parler sa langue et sa sensibles, non pas qu'ils etaient travailleurs. lis ont culture, oui. Mais aucune communaute n'etait venue defriche, ils ont arrache, ils ont prepare une terre. Mais ici pour coloniser ou conquerir, a !'exception des c'est que tout simplement on leur a pas permis de Canadiens anglais, des Canadiens fran<;:ais, des Metis, s'epanouir pleinement, n'est-ce pas, dans leur langue, n'est-ce pas. Eux sont les fondateurs. Les autres dans leur culture. Leur situation economique done arrivants ont les memes droits, je l'entend, les memes aujourd'hui ou l'on parle d'inflation, leur situation devoirs que tous les autres citoyens. Mais nous sommes economique est le reflet de la situation historique qui venus, moi qui n'appartiens a aucune des deux langues, leur a ete faite. Et c'est eux qui devraient etre les en sachant tn3s bien qu'il y avait deux langues officielles: premiers a crier. l'anglais et le fran<;:ais. Or, ils ont fait don a la province, non seulement, ils Ce n'est pas demain que je demanderais ace que ont fait preuve de clemence, mais ils ont fait don a la soit enchasse dans la Constitution ma langue. Je serais province et a tous les habitants de cette province d'une pourtant tres heureux et je crois que mes etudiants le generosite incroyable. seront aussi de pouvoir tend re a la main a tout le monde Les autres peuples se sont revoltes. lis ont pris les si on pouvait respecter la parole donnee. armes. Heureusement pour nous, nous sommes dans Je vous remercie. un pays ou on ne parle pas d'armes. Mais jusqu'a quand la patience des Metis et des Canadiens fran<;:ais, jusqu'a MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Soufi. quand une democratie, n'est-ce pas, pourra-t-elle Mr. Lecuyer, questions? impunement bafouer les choses les plus elementaires contenues dans sa constitution. MR. G. LECUVER: M. le president, je vous demande Revenir sur sa parole lorsqu'on a conclu une entente, peut-etre juste pour un instant de me permettre de tout simplement pour un electorat, c'est faire de la contrarier peut-etre les reglements et de dire a M. Soufi politique a bon marcher. La politique des petits pas. que j'apprecie enormement ses propos, ses propos Quand on s'engage dans la politique, il taut voir a la tres humains; en fait que j'appelerais plutot un distance du Canada, d'un ocean a l'autre, il taut voir temoignage venant de sa part, lui dont le fran<;:ais ni l'avenir. Or si vous voulez etre la providence de ceux l'anglais sont la langue maternelle, qui n'est pas qui sont a naitre, vous avez, Mesdames et Messieurs, originaire du Manitoba mais dont son pays natal a bien a interroger vos consciences et a vous dire j'ai eu l'obligeance de m'accueillir a mon tour pendant trois aujourd'hui a accomplir une tache qui n'est pas pour ans en Algerie ou j'ai pu enseigner comme Franco­ moi mais pour mes petits enfants; comme mon fils, Manitobain ma langue seconde, c'est-a-dire l'anglais. qu'il soit anglophone ou francophone, qu'il soit Et je voudrais tout simplement signaler pour mes germanophone ou qu'il soit ukrainien ou qu'il soit de collegues que dans ce meme lycee ou j'ai pu enseigner n'importe quelle langue ou de n'importe quelle race, ma langue seconde, il s'enseignait aussi, en plus du se trouvera heureux dans la terre manitobaine. A ce fran<;:ais, il s'enseignait l'anglais, naturellement l'arabe moment-la, le Manitoba sera l'exemple pour tout le comme langue premiere, le russe, l'allemand, Canada. l'espagnol, l'italien et quelques autres langues que je Nous avons la chance d'etablir une humanite, non ne me souviens pas a !'instant. 11 s'enseignait au moins pas une humanite simplement ideale, mais un ideal dix langues dans le lycees ou j'enseignais. Et <;:a c'est humain incarne dans cette province. Mais pour cela, a l'exemple, je pense, de !'Europe. Mais dans le cas il taut abattre les prejuges. 11 taut abattre les prejuges echeant ici, on parle d'un pays en voie de qui se sont enracines a travers l'histoire. 11 taut aller developpement. Done si dans les pays en voie de par-dela de l'histoire, revenir a l'humanite. developpement on peut voir aussi loin, on peut voir J'aimerais en terminant citer encore Louis David Riel: "Nous sommes grace a Dieu nes pour les idees belles, aussi large, son temoignage done est d'autant plus pour les actes d'honneur et de beau devouement. Nous valable. avons de l'essor pour les vertus reelles mais votre faux Merci M. le president. gouvernement pesent sur nous sans cesse et nous coupe les ailes. Faut-il esperer avoir un vrai MR. T. SOUFI: Merci M. Lecuyer. gouvernement." Je tiens a rendre hommage au gouvernement actuel et cela non pas pour etre contre MR. CHAIRMAN: Questions by honorable members. !'opposition. Mais tout simplement parce que le Seeing no questions, Mr. Soufi, thank you very much gouvernement actuel a pris conscience qu'il fallait for your presentation here this evening. rectifier les injustices du passe. Le Manitoba peut et est capable de servir comme MR. T. SOUFI: Merci M. le president. Merci Mesdames exemple, je le repete, pour l'unite nationale, l'unite et Messieurs.

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MR. CHAIRMAN: Henry Elias. Apart from being a political issue and something I understand the Clerk has received the resignation which is being claimed to be highly divisive, and often of Mr. Nordman, and that Mr. Downey is to be added it is divisive, I think the contemporaries of the world, to the committee. and particularly the world of business, suggest that we should really take a look at this issue from a much MR. H. GRAHAM: You're again a little ahead of the broader perspective. time, Mr. Chairman. Let me get back to the inner world of the child. When the child grows up in a certain cultural environment - MR. CHAIRMAN: The Clerk has not yet received the of course, we talk of mother tongue - the basic resignation of Mr. Nordman. communication capabilites develop in the child in the That completes . . . so-called mother tongue. And in a multicultural society the mother tongue, the tongue of the mother, could be A MEMBER: Where does that leave Mr. Downey? very well different from English or French. If that is so, then the child who grows in a dual environment begins MR. CHAIRMAN: No one knows for sure. to have a world view where he is bound to have some kind of identity confusion and also identity crisis. A MEMBER: On the outside looking in. The well-known psychoanalyst, Erickson, has theories about the inner world of children. When he talks about MR. CHAIRMAN: Dr. Vedanand. identity crisis and identity confusion, he also suggests that some of the children, who grow with this kind of DR. VEDANAND: Mr. Chairman, I would like to thank identity crisis, towards the latter period of their lives, you for this opportunity to appear before your they have remnants of a negative identity. I'm sorry if committee. My name is Vedanand. I'm appearing here I am being more abstract, but some of these issues as a private citizen and also as president of Hindi are very crucial to my presentation and therefore I think Fellowship, an organization to promote and preserve I would like to elaborate on them later on. He further makes uut a case for nurturing a more the heritage of Hindi language, which is one of the healthy ego identity for the children of minorities. This national languages of India. could be nurtured in the seed-bed of appropriate Also, I would like to present a point of view, which linguistic and cultural environment, because folk tales, perhaps might be a bit different than what you have fantasies, mythologies, they could be totally different, been hearing amongst various presentations. and the greater ability with the language will enable The question of language is always a very emotional them to preserve not only their own cultural heritage, question whenever it comes up for discussion. John but would give them also a world view which is broader. Stuart Mill, speaking in an address to one of the Therefore, if the children could go with capabilities in universities in England in 1865, he was author of "On more than one language - and I'm not so sure they Liberty," suggested that every student should have the should not learn English and French, English and French opportunity to get instruction, besides English, in they could learn, but besides those they could have German, in French, besides the classics, Greek and some other language as well - therefore in those Latin. situations you'll find that these children would have Now, that view seems to have been a very unique greater capabilities in languages and also in looking view of instructions in humanities, which is very broad at cultural differences. based. Very few seem to have fascination for learning A lot of the problems that some of the businessmen languages these days. In fact, one might even say that and executives face today is the managing of cultural there is a definite indifference amongst the students differences. This is in the context of global and to learn more than one language. In some cases this international trade. Corporations which go over wide indifference almost borders on like being contempt for and try to operate in the biggest parts of the world, other languages. I am also a professor at the University they always have these problems, because they do have of Manitoba, so I've been seeing the students and their executives who have the capability to handle those kinds capabilities in languages. of problems. I'm reminded of the famous - attributed to one of Therefore, I'm suggesting that children who have the great historians - that the true test of any civilized greater capabilities with the language, who have greater government is its capability to treat its minorities with tolerance of other languages, they develop a much compassion and empathy, and therefore some of the broader world view, and therefore they more minority rights for which this effort is being made to cosmopolitan and a broader liberal outlook of world entrench them could be perhaps taken care of very reality. well, only when there is some kind of guarantee or The contemporary wo •• d of realities is forcing these some kind of legal support. it is in this context that I kind of issues upon us, and those people who have to am very supportive of the move that the government later on become not only political leaders and future is making. decision-makers, business executives, they have to face I have also seen in the press, one of the amendments these problems. A year ago I spent some time doing that had been presented by MAPAL, one of the new research in Japan, and the thing that you observed in associations, Section 23.10, and I think that follows in Japan was to see how they want to learn other the same spirit and I certainly will support that as well. languages, and particularly English. They want to try The question of language then has to be viewed in their English on you. Whenever there is a Japanese what I might call psychological space, and this is the business delegation, which goes out to negotiate trade, different point of view that I'm trying to present. investment in technology, and all kinds of these trade

1137 Tuesday, 4 October, 1983

negotiations. Even if they cannot speak very good told me a very interesting story last year. He said here English, everyone is speaking English. Not only that, we are working with all the top executives, Exxon, Gulf, if they're going to Mexico, they will be speaking Spanish; etc., and finds that the even the top management in if they go into Africa, they will speaking Swahili. A these companies have got their mindset. This mindset Mexican Trade Minister told me some time back, begins with the point of view that the world begins in wherein they attracted a plant from California in Mexico, Europe and ends up in North America. Yet there is a and this person said that one thing they found very region out there which is very productive, very different about the Japanese executives was that competitive, and what is worse, they want to compete nobody asked them to learn the Spanish language, but in this area almost on our terms, employing the same after work they all would stay and they would hire a labour, paying the same wage rates, and competing personal tutor and they would start learning Spanish under the same labour laws. and within three to four months they are all speaking There is a fetish amongst all managers for strategy. Spanish. The only persons who don't care to learn the When we talk of strategy, it has almost become a cultural language, he said, are the Americans. They come from peculiarity. When we talk of fetish, what I mean is this: eight to five, the job is finished, they are the ones who The French take off very easily when you talk of good want everyone to learn English, they don't want to learn food or romance, so do all managers. Yet when it comes the language. That attitude, Sir, I would suggest is not to competing for worldwide, we find that with all our the attitude which will give us a greater share in the great strategy and tactics, there are many areas in world market and greater capability to compete in the which we have to take stock of our way of doing things. world market. I think this perspective is symbolic of We have to improve our capabilities. that kind of tolerance, that kind of acceptance of Therefore, those who have the capacity to become possibilities. great leaders, they must also have the capacity to turn I am suggesting, therefore, that the language issue mere mortals into folk heroes. They don't have to has some definite spill-over effects. Greater ability to become martyrs, but certainly they have to have the learn languages, more than one, would also suggest capacity to turn the mere moral into doing committed, that people will have cultural sensitivity and empathy. devoted, honest work. When . . . took over recently They will much better manage cultural differences. - not recently, four years back . . . Corporation, the There are some very interesting practical managerial English said $2.2 billion, and they went down and talked implications. Our students and future managers, to the people. They said this company is losing market decision-makers, could be become very myopic in their shares and products are very poor in quality, and they world view if they want to learn only one language. are going bankrupt. They said this great society has This, I suggest, would be a very dangerous kind of been built by your forefathers with honest committed incapacity in all future citizens and leaders. We see a work and a capacity for vision. All we want from you mindset of intolerance and prejudice against other is honest work. I'm suggesting that kind of capacity cultures and languages; therefore, a more liberal and for vision requires that we must have a broader more cosmopolitan outlook would provide capacity for perspective and outlook to give that capability to our accepting diversity and a capacity also to manage managers. lt decries a moral vision, more than legal diversity. and political kind of strategies. Also in decision-making there are issues and there Let me present the scenario about the myth of a are styles which are often discussed, and one of them well-educated businessman in Canada; he knows only has been labelled as homogenistic thinking, in which English. Not only that, he does not know other we force our point of view on the others in negotiations, languages, he hates other languages. And if it is deeply in the styles of decision-making, in the way things are embedded in his conscience the notion of cultural to be done. If the group doesn't agree to our way of superiority or the superiority of one language, that is doing things, then that is accepted to be very a reflection on that kind of attitude of tolerance to other disfunctional, let me put it this way. Therefore, if we cultures. I'm suggesting that we have to give a greater have to develop these kinds of capabilities in our future capability to our future leaders, the ability to manage business leaders, I think it will good for our students cultural differences, and at the grassroot level I'm to develop a much broader world view and a much suggesting that if you have this kind of tolerant view better handle on outside reality. As I mentioned earlier, about other languages and other cultures, perhaps that our great trade partners, I used Japan, and there is a would come naturally. great world of opportunity in the Middle East, China, We usually always have what is known as a kind of Asia, etc. Experts on these regions, who are looking behaviour discrepancy between what we want to do at these issues, are suggesting that we've got to have and \Aw'hat t.Ne ideally desire should be done; ther�fore, better understanding of the Chinese and Japanese. there is always a gap between what we would like to To day the World Bank publishes its reports not only do and what should be done. Governments always face in English, but in Arabic, Japanese and Chinese; some this dilemma, and governments face some moral years back, these were not possibilities. dilemmas too. Therefore, it is good to raise these it is this kind of point of view which needs some questions in meetings. But if you wanted to say how emphasis, because we do not have, even at most of much funding has been done to make sure that our industries, great exploration in many languages. Japanese is taught in some of the universities so that As I said, when our trade delegations go outside, we they have experts in Japanese - they are going to be have to depend on others to translate. Our managers a great, either trading partner, or they will be great have a very rigid belief and structure from that point competitors for our products - and we'll find out that of view. those concrete examples are not there. Demobeglan, (phonetic) who is one of the noted world Therefore, I would, again in passing, suggest that authorities on . . . countries and particularly Japan, one of the challenges that seem to stem from this kind I 1138 Tuesday, 4 October, 1983

of issue is that we must have an opportunity for creating but I will deviate a bit to say that I am bilingual and an environment in which we will nurture future leaders, I feel it is an asset to know more than one language. business executives, who have a more tolerant view, lt seems to me that this has to be achieved through greater cultural sensitivity and greater empathy for the the schools and through interest in the home. Ideal as issues that will come very handy when we have to fight it might seem to some to have a bilingual country, the battle of world leadership in the field of business nowhere can it be economically sound. In 1980, the 1870 act was re-enacted, that is to say and in the field of social, political issues, as well. Thank the French and English language has equal status in you, Mr. Chairman. the courts and the Legislature. Therefore, I see no reason to entrench an amendment to make provincial MR. G. LECUYER: Mr. Chairman, Dr. Vedanand, a agencies bilingual. This will displace a number of people number of people who have appeared before this and cause further divisiveness and hate. committee have claimed that because English is the This is done at a great cost to the public, considering language of trade between Canada and the United that we seem to be catering to about 6 percent of the States, and Canada and some of its other partners, population of Manitoba. I don't believe that any person that French was not a language that was particularly should have special status. lt seems to me that we are useful, or to any extent useful, in world trade. In fact, getting to the stage where bilingualism is more many said that they saw it as perhaps as a disadvantage. important than qualifications for a job. I think I gathered from what you have said, I understand There seems to be a definite bias in the bilingual your view, but I would like you to just dwell on that program in favour of the French; in other words, a for a moment. double standard, which provides services and financing to French-Canadians while denying similar services to DR. VEDANAND: Thank you, sir. These statements English-speaking Canadians. French-speaking Canadians outside of Quebec receive financing from have to be viewed in a proper perspective. When they both the Federal Government and Quebec Government, say that English is, it is only in terms of some while the English-speaking Quebecer, who wants a chronological time period in which English has become freedom of choice, does not get a penny from either important. Certainly, by the same, turn around and say government. Japanese was never a language which anybody needed Another example of a double standard is the funding to learn. Arabic was not a language which anybody of the legal expenses of Mr. Forest in his fight against had to learn, and the great fortunes of nations even an English-only parking ticket here in Winnipeg. A wanted to stay the same way. Although, English had similar challenge was instituted in Montreal against an become the world language, no doubt, but just as the English-only traffic ticket. but the Federal Government British Empire was there, so was the French Empire, did not provide any money for the legal costs. There and French went from France to many cultures and should be no doubt in anyone's mind that the Liberal many countries, and those people who have a proud Government goes out of its way to support French­ tradition of French, as well. speaking individuals and groups who want to promote If the United States had a different language, just and enhance the French culture across Canada. for the sake of argument I am saying, and being the The funding for the bilingual program is obtained by most important industrial nation in the world, somebody uniformly taxing the whole of Canada, however, most of the money seems to go to promote interests of one would be valuing that language as more important. ethnic group. In perspective, I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that Mr. Yalden, the Minister for Languages, while speaking importance of languages in world trade are there but, on a cross-country program, stated that an enormous at the same time, there are newer forces emerging, amount of money has been spent and expenditures which force us to have a much broader outlook and will increase every year for the bilingual program. He perspective about the language capabilities. lt is not also said, "Unfortunately, there is a great deal of waste." English alone which perhaps would help us, we'll have Another statement he made was that he was to have a greater capability about languages. This is disappointed in the Federal Government who seemed my point of view. Thank you. to be lax in the enforcement of bilingualism in Quebec. Maybe someone here could tell me why we have this MR. CHAIRMAN: Further questions from honourable concentrated effort by the Federal Government members? supporting further French usage in Manitoba, while they Seeing none, Dr. Vedanand, thank you very much for totally ignore what is going on in Quebec. Every service being here today and representing your organization. the public receives is funded through taxation and now we seem to have an extra service being forced by the DR. VEDANAND: Thank you for your service. Federal Government. So consequently, the other services will receive less. Two prime examples are higher education and Medicare, which are being threatened MR. CHAIRMAN: Bohdanka Dutka, George Rykman, and maybe even sacrificed for the benefit of the bilingual Don Mclvor, S. Stephansson. program. A. Warkentin. Is it Mrs. Warkentin? So, in closing, my parting comment is: The extended bilingual program is ruinous to the economy and is also MS. S. STEPHANSSON: Stephansson. creating antagonism and divisiveness across all of Canada. MR. CHAIRMAN: Oh, Stephansson, sorry. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms. Stephansson. MS. S. STEPHANNSON: My presentation will be brief Questions for Ms. Stephansson from members of the for the main emphasis is on the cost of bilingualism, committee?

1139 Tu esday, 4 October, 1983

Mr. Ashton. MS. S. STEPHANSSON: We all know that we don't get this for nothing. MR. S. ASHTON: Yes, I just wondering if you aware of the cost of the agreement that was worked out here MR. CHAIRMAN: Further questions, Mr. Ashton? in Manitoba, and what your thoughts were on that cost. Further questions for members? Mr. Doern. MS. S. STEPHANSSON: I didn't hear the first part of MR. R. DOERN: your question. You talked about federal funding and so on, could you indicate whether you believe that ethnic MR. S. ASHTON: I am wondering if you aware of the or linguistic groups should be totally self-sufficient, or cost of the agreement that we are discussing today. do you think they could receive some federal or provincial support?

MS. S. STEPHANSSON: No, I don't know what the MS. S. STEPHANSSON: cost is. Well, the country is declared bilingual, so we have French and English officially. Are you referring to funding for other ethnic groups? MR. S. ASHTON: The reason I'm asking is because one point that the government has stressed throughout MR. R. DOERN: is that we're not interested in establishing a program Yes, any ethnic or linguistic group, do which duplicates federal bilingualism. you think it's appropriate for the Federal Government or the province to fund them, or would you suggest they are not eligible and shouldn't be supported by MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. The purpose of any government? questions is not to debate but to ask questions for clarification on the material in the brief. Ms. MS. S. STEPHANSSON: Well, not really. Stephansson did not make reference to the cost of the provincial program and has said she is not aware of MR. R. DOERN: Thank you very much. them, so obviously questions on the subject will not facilitate the deliberations of the committee. MR. CHAIRMAN: Further questions? Seeing none, Ms. Do you have another line of questioning, Mr. Ashton? Stephansson, thank you very much for your presentation. MR. S. ASHTON: Well, Mr. Chairman, we're discussing A. Warkentin, Remi Smith, Leo Teillet, To m Cohoe, the provincial jurisdiction, it was a lead into a question Mario Sosa, Ron Nash, Luba A. Kwasney, Roy Brunka, which had nothing with the federaL Heather Stone, Henry Huber, Jack Froese, Derwyn Davies, Jesse Vorst, Ken Morley, Henry Elias. MR. CHAIRMAN: Could you ask a question for I believe I have called all of the names remaining on clarification, then, please? the list this evening. Is there anyone whose name was on the list whose name I did not call? MR. S. ASHTON: Yes, I wilL I'm just wondering then, Seeing none, ladies and gentleman on the committee, in view of the fact that we have tried to avoid some that concludes the list in front of us. I'll make the of those costs here in Manitoba, whether if the cost standard last call to the gallery. Is there anyone in the factor was not a problem, whether you would still be gallery whose name was not on the list who wishes to opposed to some form of French services here in make a presentation to the committee? Manitoba. Two individuals, please come forward, Sir. Your name, Sir. MS. S. STEPHANSSON: I am not opposed to it, as I said. We have it in the courts and the Legislature and MR. CHANDRA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, my name we also have it in the schools and have had for a long is Chandra. I am the regional Vice-President for time. Manitoba for the National Association for Canadians of Indian Origins. I represent 20,000 people of Indian MR. S. ASHTON: So you are not opposed to French origin from India, Pakistan, Ceylon, East Africa, Asia services per se then? and South America. We are broadly located in Winnipeg and some outside of Winnipeg. MS. S. STEPHANSSON: No, as they were, as they I have watched these proceedings with some kind 1870. have been re-enacted from of trepidation and in fear. I'm sure all Manitobans, as all Canadians, respect and love certain values. MR. R. DOERN: So what areas do you disagree with One of the values, outstanding, and perhaps demands then in the proposal? importance is tolerance of other's rights. This is how democracy thrives, and this is how democracy builds MS. S. STEHANSSON: Well, I mentioned it in my brief, on the basis or bases that promote that liberalism, that obviously you weren't listening. I said provincial those considerations that promote multiculturalism. agencies. Coming down to the entrenchment of French language rights, I think we have the view from two MR. S. ASHTON: My question was if there was not a points of view. One, as people of my background view concern about the cost, what areas you were concerned it, is philosophical, historical and constitutional, all rolled about, but obviously . . . ? in one. We believe that for the last 93 years illegality

1140 Tu esday, 4 October, 1983

existed in this province, denying French of their legal When you pour millions and millions of dollars to rights for whatever reasons - and I'm not accusing support NATO, nobody raises a human cry on that, anybody, it could be out of sheer ignorance - was a although that is token support. Nobody is going to constitutional denial and that illegality has to be attack Canada. When you pour millions of dollars in corrected. The sooner it is done, the better for all permitting experiments of missiles in Alberta, none of Manitobans that live in this great province. In that denial these rednecks raise their voice. But when you want we view a dark future not only for French, but all ethnic to correct an illegality, whether you want to contribute minorities that live in this province, that elected to live to the cultural richness of a province and of a nation, in this province. bigotry raises its head. They want to live in a fool's Good - that a case came around and the Supreme paradise, I would say, closing their eyes to the reality Court ruled on that, and therefore we today are debating of the situation, to the fact that ethnic minorities it, although I thought if democracy is the prime generally and particularly in this case, French minority, consideration that should not have arisen. Nevertheless, need assurance that they are wanted, that they are not whatever reason, if it's denied, the time has come that second-class citizens, that they have a right as much we correct the historical constitutional fact with grace as anybody else. and good will. On the one hand, we shed crocodile tears when those I'm flabbergasted, Mr. Chairman, to see that a fact rights are denied to Anglophones in Quebec. We talk that is so clear is not perceived by what were political about all kinds of funny things, I don't want to repeat considerations that coax and guide some of our friends them. On the other hand, when it comes down to our here not to see it and then to stand up and oppose own province, when we are trying to correct a situation it. To my mind it is a very simple case of restoring that that has continued for decades, all kinds of practical illegality. If we do not do that, then we'll do that at reasons are raised, pragmatic reasons are raised. Mr. great expense. When the Supreme Court rules it out Chairman, all this pragmatism and practicality is coming and then you turn around and start doing what we want out of our narrow-mindedness. We are lacking vision, to do with good will, we're kind of convincing everybody we are lacking commitment. We are not in fact supporting those vah.;as and goals, as I said before, that we are not doing this, restoring French to its legal on which democracy thrives. status because of legal pressure, but we are doing it Well, there are ways or, perhaps, practical solutions as a matter of good will, it would perhaps convince that our friend in Germany tried - get rid of all the everybody in this province that we are not doing it minorities. One-quarter of the French-speaking public under any pressure. This is one thing. in Canada or others - get rid of them, and then, of Another point of view, Mr. Chairman, that is basically course, there'll be no questions asked. But until those moral and I think, to my mind, of great importance that facts are there, we have to live with them. We might this country is a country that is founded by two pay lip service, I don't care, but they are facts of live, chartered nations, French and English. To deny French particular facts of life, historical realities, constitutional their fundamental right would be denying the history facts that we need to accept and entrench. of our heritage and our present reality as a nation. One of my friends said, why constitutional Refusing to recognize that we are a nation of two amendment? Why not leave it to the Legislature? People languages and also denying the cultural richness that have not read political history right. If left to the whims the multicultural society in Canada contributing to our and fancies of political parties, they play around with province and to our nation would be a great tragedy. minority rights. Nowhere in the history of the world, What we are in fact doing is fulfilling a constitutional minority rights have been left to the sweet whims of obligation to the French. I think this is a unique political change and political process. The history, if Manitoba-made solution to correct the situation. my friends who are opposed to me read with care, well, lt is rather amusing, Sir, that there are certain people tell them that the entrenched majority always goes amongst us who do not or refuse to face facts. against it, has gone against it, is being done here. Manitoba, like Canada, is a multicultural society. To I'm amused by some of my friends who support impose a language on others is to deny them or to political conservatism. When their leader supports the deny the nation, for that matter, the cultural richness principle of bilingualism in Canada and in Manitoba, that these ethnic minorities will bring to the nation and I'm sure they must be embarrassed by Mr. Mulroney's to the province. Ethnic minorities, especially, are very support to the principle of French language fearful that when you can turn around and deny the entrenchment here. Is it a rebellion going on here French-speaking people their fundamental right, what against the leadership? kind of justice can you expect for the minority here? To my friends, who subscribe to the political Therefore, in entrenching the French language, we see philosophy of the NDP,it's really a chuckle, I just don't great hope and we see that there i3 a future for the understand. I thought the philosophy of democratic ethnic minorities in this country. socialism was based on benign, enlightened, liberal People talk about the price, the great price attached principles of politics. The founding fathers of the New to it. I don't see that. There is always price to pay for Democratic Party did make it a point to see that this certain values, for certain ideals, for certain goals. be a party of minority groups wherever in this country. Democracy thrives on those goals and values and if lt really amuses me to see some of those who say they you want to run a country in a cheap way - and I'm suscribe to that political philosophy and then stand up using the word "cheap" for a very definite purpose - and oppose for some cheap political gains. They do you have to sacrifice democracy and build a different not see the tomorrow, they see only the today, and kind of political system here. Make a military rule, it they stand up and oppose those great liberal principles will make everything easier for you, and therefore I with the founding fathers of the New Demcratic Party, think you would pay a price. entrench and made the bases of this political party.

1141 Tuesday, 4 October, 1983

I do not say, and I appeal through you to Manitobans MR. CHANDRA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. and to the people who live in this great province to shed fear. In doing this, in entrenching this, we are in MR. CHAIRMAN: I believe on the last call Mr. Forest fact providing leadership to the whole country, to our was also standing. sister province, Ontario. What we do today, other Mr. Georges Forest, please. Mr. Forest, you have provinces will follow later. What will happen today here appeared before the committee once before. Do you is being watched with great care in Quebec. We will appear again as a private citizen? not have to raise up our voice later on. If we do provide rights to French-speaking people here, the Anglophones MR. G. FOREST: I must say, Mr. Chairman, that I am will get the same right in Quebec. They are watching making history. To night I appear on behalf of someone us. else. So, I would appeal to the people, all the people of Manitoba, Mr. Chairman, that they should see beyond MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. their nose, and I'm sure they would. it is not in our power to change the course of history. I see the writing MR. G. FOREST: on the wall, so instead of leaving it to the political I have for so many years been my change and political process, I would suggest that let own committee and my own group, but tonight I am this fact be entrenched and let us make political history proud to say that I have been asked by M. Joseph for Canada and for the generations, and by doing this, Bruce, le president de !'Union nationals metis Saint­ let us confirm our belief in the good great principles Joseph du Manitoba, who is here to speak on his behalf of democracy and multiculturalism. for !'Union nationals metis. I would like to draw your attention, Madame, MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chandra. Questions Messieurs, to the fact that Louis Riel is here with us for Mr. Chandra from members of the committee? this evening. Would you stand please Louis. This is Mr. Ashton. Louis Riel IV. Louis Riel IV, l'arriere-neveu je crois que je dois dire, de Louis Riel. MR. S. ASHTON: Yes, I was wondering if you could Je prends la parole, M. le president, ce soir et tout tell me what the situation in India is, in terms of particulierement comme etant le dernier a parler dans . languages, how many . . ces audiences publiques pour faire le point. Le point particulier sur ce fait qu'en 1869, Louis Riel, MR. CHANDRA: Thank you, sir, I think that's a very representant de fa<;:on officiellement son gouvernement interesting question . . . provisoire, representant tous les groupes de la vallee de la Riviere Rouge, avait demande au gouvernement MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. canadien, entre autres, dans la liste des droits que l'anglais et le fran<;:ais soient les langues officielles du MR. A. KOVNATS: A very intelligent question, but Manitoba. Avec tous les annees qui ont suivies, nous certainly out of order, Mr. Chairman. avons toute une histoire a raconter et malheureusement

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Kovnats, you trop peu de gens la connaisse. La fin de cette histoire anticipated the Chair's ruling. The question was not est qu'aujourd'hui il y a un effort serieux qui est fait touched upon in the brief and is therefore out of order. pour essayer de corriger tout le dommage qui a ete Questions for clarification of the material in the brief fait durant les 90 dernieres annees. only please. These are the rules the Chair has followed J'entendais plus tot cette apres-midi quelqu'un dire throughout. que les Canadians francais n'avaient pas souffert et on a semble faire allusion au fait que l'embonpoint de MR. S. ASHTON: My apologies, Mr. Chairman. M. Desjardins, de M. Robert et de moi-meme etait une indication que nous n'avions pas souffert. Au contraire, MR. CHAIRMAN: Do you have a further question for M. le president. Nous avons certainement su survivre. clarification? Mais comme l'a dit si eloquemment M. Taib, le professeur Taib Soufi, il y a quelques instants, ce fut MR. S. ASHTON: Since the speaker was speaking on cruel ce penible effort de la legislature du Manitoba behalf of Canadians of Origins from India, I had de 1890 de pratiquer, comme certains l'ont dit, un wondered what his perspective, coming from his own certain genocide culture! sur le peuple canadien-francais national background, was. However, that's not for me ou parler en francais du Manitoba. to ask that question. En particulier, le groupe metis que je represents ici ce soir, a titre moi-meme de vice-president de !'Union MR. CHAIRMAN: If you wish to wonder about that, nationals metis et au nom de notre president Joseph you may ask him after the hearing is concluded. Bruce, ce peuple metis dont le livre que vous avez en Further questions for clarification of the contents of the brief? main, "Hold High Your Heads", est le volume particulier I know you would have liked to answer that question, de l'histoire de la nation metis en francais, que nous but it would not be appropriate. avons presente a M. Lecuyer, ea pour !'occasion c'est un cadeau que !'Union nationals du metis vous fait. MR. CHANDRA: There is time, Mr. Chairman. M. le president, je vous encourage fortement le plus tot possible a lire cette histoire qui vous fera MR. CHAIRMAN: Seeing no further questions, Mr. comprendre le role qu'a joue la nation metis dans la Chandra, thank you very much for your presentation fondation de cette province et les temps difficiles qu'ils here this evening. ont vecus meme lorsqu'il s'agissait le traite avec les

1142 Tuesday, 4 October, 1983

leurs de langue franc;:aise. Un episode particulier, vous n'allons donner qu'une analyse rapide et succinate en la trouverez dans le texte anglais "Hold High Your nous plac;:ant au point de vue metis. Heads" dans !'introduction qu'avait fait l'auteur Antoine '"La poursuite prise par M. Joseph Dumas, depute Lussier. M. le president, il fait allusion a la difficulte de Saint-Boniface, a pour but de faire respecter le traite qu'existait 1916 lorsque siegeant comme representant fait entre le gouvernement provisoire de la Riviere de la circonscription de Saint-Boniface, le depute Rouge en 1870 et le gouvernement canadien, traite Joseph P. Dumas avait lui-meme tente un proces devant sanctionne par le gouvernement imperial. Ce traite rend les tribunaux du Manitoba et cela en franc;:ais. Fort de obligatoire !'impression des documents dans ies deux sa responsabilite de mener la destinee du peuple, de iangues dans les cours de justice. C'est-a-dire que le ce petit peuple de 30 000 ames, I'Association proces Dumas-Baribault a pour but de nous faire rendre d'education des Canadiens franc;:ais du Manitoba, l'officialite de la langue franc;:aise et le resultat atteint fondee au printemps de 1916, s'efforc;:ait de a etre le il serait difficile de ne pas faire enseigner dans les ecoies seul parte-parole. Malheureusement, la communication une langue officielle. L'attitude du depute de Saint­ n'etait pas etablie assez bien entre le peuple metis et Boniface n'eut pas l'heure de plaire a !'Association !'Association de fac;:on ace qu'il s'est fait une division d'Education, qui par l'entremise de son president, qui a, je crois, dure jusqu'a nos jours. M. Dumas et le I'Honorable Juge Prendergast declara dans un article peuple metis croyaient que c'etait par les tribunaux et qui fit le tour de la Presse, qu'elle condamnait seulement par le tribunal qu'on pourrait retablir la energiquement la poursuite Dumas, qu'elie etait decidee justice d'un droit qui nous avait ete si cruellement enleve a ne pas se prevaloir des traites et a ne pas demander en 1890. Alors !'Association d'education avait dit a tout !'intervention federale, qu'elle abandonnait la lutte pour le monde: N'appuyez pas Dumas, son avocat Dubuc la langue et qu'elle confinait son travail a la maison et tous ceux qui se melent de cette affaire; ils n'ont d'ecole. Le president condamna Dumas en disant que aucun droit de nous representer. celui-ci n'avait pas d'autorisation de !'Association pour Je vais vous lire afin de consacrer au proces-verbal mener une telle poursuite, que !'Association representait de votre comite le proces-verbal de la reunion du 16 les 30 000 habitants de langue franc;:aise du Manitoba juillet 1916. et qu'une douzaine de Canadiens franc;:ais ne pouvaient "Une assemblee d'un groupe de Metis de Saint-Vital pas a voir aucune autorite. L' Assc.ciation seule devait et des environs pour discuter et etudier les questions agir. touchant les interets metis. "'Maintenant, quelle doit etre la position que doit "Etaient presents: Joseph Riel, Alexandre Riel, Colin prendre la nation metisse dans la circonstance? McDougall, Duncan McDougall, Martin Neault, Camille Devons-nous adherer entierement a I'Association Teillet, Alexandre Neault, Jean-Marie Poitras, Patrice d'Education ou devons-nous approuver la poursuite Beauchemin, William Beauchemin, Simon Marchand et Dumas? Je crois que !'hesitation pour un coeur vraiment Roger Goulet. metis n'est pas permise. Nous ne pouvons pas a notre "M. Joseph Riel est nomme president et M. Patrice tour approuver !'Association d'Education et nous ne Beauchemin est nomme secretaire de l'assemblee. pouvons pas desapprouver la poursuite Dumas. La "M. le president invite M. Camille Teillet a faire raison de cette attitude est que le depute de Saint­ !'expose de la question principale qui a motive cette Boniface, un metis, n'a fait que demander au reunion. gouvernement de faire honneur a la parole donnee aux "En consequence, M. Te illet dit comme suit: Metis en 1870. 11 fait cette demande au gouvernement '"Le 27 fevrier dernier eut lieu a Saint-Boniface une de cette province, dans quelques jours il ia demandera assemblee des citoyens de langue franc;:aise de la au gouvernement federal et il le demandera, esperons­ province pour protester contre la persecution dont nous le, jusqu'au gouvernement imperial a Londres. Nous etions l'objet de la part du gouvernement Norris. Cette ne pouvons approuver I'Association d'Education pour assemblee fut magnifique d'ordre et d'enthousiasme; deux raisons. Premierement, parce qu'elle n'avait pas I' union semblait assuree entre les diverses sections de le droit de condamner un homme sans connaitre ses la population franc;:aise; les partis politiques etaient moyens. Elle aurait pu se contenter de le surveiller et abolis; "TOUT POUR NOT RE LANGUE", tel etait le de le laisser agir. Quel tort pouvait-il faire? mot d'ordre. Un comite fut forme. 11 prit le titre de Deuxiemement, les Metis ne pouvaient renoncer a !utter "ASSOCIATION D'EDUCATION". Quelques-uns des pour la langue. Libre aux Canadiens franc;:ais n6tres, 2 ou 3 je crois sur 50, furent nommes dans ce d'abandonner le legs de Montcalm, ainsi que les libertes comite; c'etait peu. Peut-etre pouvions nous esperer gagnees par la loyaute et l'heroisme de leurs peres en une plus grande representation, peut-etre, mais les 1775 et 1812, et par leurs martyrs de 1837. lis sont Metis habitues a ces sortes d'injustices, des injustes maitres de leur attitude et nous n'avons rien a y voir. oublis ne protesterent pas. 11 acc.epterent le fait. Mais savent-ils ce que c'est de nous demander, a nous Maintenir !'union etait necessaire pour reussir et nous Metis, de cesser de !utter pour notre langue? C'est de etions prets a bien des sacrifices d'amour-propre pour d•cmander a la nation metis d'oublier et de declarer sauver notre langue. Tout alia pour le mieux pendant comme nul ce que leur resistance calme et digne de quelque temps. Depuis plusieurs semaines, deux faits 1869-70 a obtenu; c'est lui demander d'oublier les tres graves vinrent passionner I'opinion publique et jeter persecutions dont elle a ete l'objet; c'est de demander entre les Canadiens franc;:ais et les Metis franc;:ais un aux Riel d'oublier l'echafaud de Regina que les annees malaise qui va en s'accentuant et qui menace de briser ecoulees n'ont fait que grandir et dont les annees a d'une fac;:on irreparable I'union indispensable au succes. venir feront un autel; comme le bucher de Rouen d'ou Ces faits sont la poursuite Dumas-Baribault et I' attitude s'est envolee l'ame de Jeanne d'Arc, Jeanne d'Arc qui de !'Association. Ces faits sont de notoriete publique est aujourd'hui le palladium de la France dans sa lutte et nous en avons tous entendu parler. Aussi nous gigantesque contre le despotisme touton; c'est de

1143 Tuesday, 4 October, 1983 demander a Lepine d'oublier !'exile et les cauchemars Et la, M. le president, le restant du proces-verbal qui lui faisait voir le gibet et lui demander d'oublier les passe a la formulation d'une resolution qui fut transmise chaines qui l'ont fait gemir longtemps dans les sombres a M. Dumas. Et les pages d'histoire que je n'ai pas prisons; c'est de demander aux Goulet d'oublier la avec moi ce soir nous racontent que M. Dumas a vision qui leur montre une ligne de sang qui traverse repondu dans une lettre ecrite de sa plume, en ses la Riviere Rouge; c'est demander a Andre Neault termes: "Je m'attendais pas de moins d'un coeur d'oublier les poursuites acharnees de malfaiteurs alteres metis." de sang, c'est lui demander de ne pas regarder ses M. le president, une autre experience que je dois mains et ses pieds jadis charges de fer, c'est lui vous raconter, et celle-ci est tout a fait courante. demander de ne pas mettre sa main sur sa tete pour Certains d'entre vous avez entendu dire !'expression ne pas penser a la profonde cicatrice qu'ont laissee parlant du petit reste de 3 pour cent ou 8 pour cent les baionnettes des soldats de Wolseley; c'est de de Canadiens franc;:ais, que c'etait une espece demander aux Lagimodiere, aux Harrison, aux endangee. Lorsqu'on parle de toute espece naturelle Beauchemin, aux Delorme, aux Carriere, aux endangee, on prend les mesures necessaires pour sa Champagne, aux Proulx, aux Lariviere, tourond, protection. Je vous donnerais l'exemple de I' ours polaire Vermette et tant d'autres d'oublier ce qu'ils ont souffert qui est, nous le savons, une espece endangee. Qu'est­ de persecussions et de miseres; c'est en un mot ce qu'on fait? Premierement, on interdit la chasse. Mais demander a la nation metisse d'oublier une des plus pour ce peuple franc;:ais au Manitoba, c'est la chasse belles pages de son histoire en renonc;:ant de suivre a l'homme et c;:a ne prend pas de permis. C'est a tout ses traditions. Sans doute quand ils se sont prononces, chacun dans le bureau, sur la rue ou ailleurs de lancer ils n'ont pas songe a toutes ces choses, autrement ils des betises, de faire toutes sortes de discriminations auraient pris une autre attitude. J'en suis convaincu.'" pour des droits enchasses dans la Constitution qui ne Je m'arrete, M. le president, pour souligner que ce sont pas respectes. M. Camille Te illet, qui fut le secretaire de cette Sur cela, M. le president, c'est aussi d'actualite. De assemblee historique, etait le pere de Roger Te illet, nos jours et de la part de quelqu'un qui est present depute de Saint-Boniface a la Chambre des Communes, ici ce soir dans !'audience parce qu'il est Metis, parce et le grand-pere de Leo Te illet qui je crois vous a qu'il est de langue franc;:aise, il subit de la part de ses present!'! un memoir il y a quelques jours. M. Camille superieurs, toutes sortes d'injustices sociales. Te illet etait marie a Sarah Riel, une descendante de Suffisamment que si c'etait moi, il y a longtemps, et Louis Riel, le meunier de la Seine. c;:a,c;:a se passe de plus en plus rapidement ces temps­ "'Que devons-nous faire? (continu le memoire) ci a cause du debat qui fait le tour des journaux, le Prendre une attitude sur la question Dumas; et je crois tour de la presse. M. le president, si dans le projet de que la seule que nous puissions prendre c'est loi que vous propose etablir ou passe devant la d'approuver le principe, !'idee que revendique ce que Chambre du Manitoba, il n'y a pas l'explicite declaration la nation metisse a gagne. Pour ce qui est de la que la langue franc;:aise et la langue anglaise sont responsabilite, nous la laissons toute entiere a M. officielles au Manitoba - point - c'est injustice va Dumas. Ne connaissant pas ses moyens, nous continuer. demeurons convaincus qu'il saura porter haut et ferme Je fais allusion, M. le president, a l'amendement qui le nom metis et qu'il rejettera loin de lui toute nous a tombe sur la tete le 6 septembre dernier. Vous combinaison qui serait de nature a rabaisser un homme. allez remarquer qu'ils sont peu nombreux les gens qui Ce qui dans les circonstances rejaillirait sur la nation ont presente des memoires devant vous, qui ont fait, a laquelle il appartient. Pour le moment, nous n'avons qu'a le feliciter de son idee en lui souhaitant bon qui ont base leurs arguments sur les amendements courage, convaincus que nous sommes qu'il ira jusqu'au croyant que ce n'etait pas fini, qu'il yen avait d'autres bout. Cette attitude nous force a nous tenir a l'ecart a venir, ou que ceux-la peut-etre n'etaient pas tellement de I' Association d'Education. Nous le regrettons clairs. profondement mais nous devons nous rendre cette Permettez-moi de m'attarder quelques instants la­ justice que nous ne l'avons pas voulu. Un peu plus de dessus. 11 y avait d'abord la resolution puis jugement et de discretion et, disons-le, un peu plus de l'amendement. Je faisais, il y a quelques instants, 23.1, connaissance de l'histoire et des faits lui auraient allusion aux fait que l'amendement qui se nomme empeche de commettre ces erreurs vis-a-vis nous. Nous qui restreint la declaration des deux langues officielles 23 nous tiendrons sur la reserve; mais qu'il soit bien connu telle que I'on trouve dans la section ou les sections 23.2 23.9 que nous n'avons au coeur aucun sentiment de haine a inclusivement, pour moi est hors d'ordre. ou de jalousie. Nous voulons garder et maintenir la Ce n'etaii pas entendu dans !'entente du 17 mai, et nation metisse dans son entite, fidele a ses traditions dans ce a quoi je me suis associe en tant qu'individu, et a son passe. Nous sommes resolus a Iutter de toutes le :?4 mai dernier a Saint-Boniface. Le restant, et plus nos forces pour conserver notre race distncte. Nous particulierement pour ce qu'il en vaut, je trouve un peu voulons qu'elle soit toujours metisse-canadienne­ genre omnibus de vouloir introduire une nouvelle franc;:aise. Que ceux qui revent d'assimilation en fasse section, celle qu'on appelle 23.9. leur deuil; leur reve ne se realisera pas. Nous resterons Dans ma presentation personnelle plus tot, et je crois ce qu'ont ete nos peres et nous enseignerons a nos que c'etait vers le 8 du mois de septembre, j'avais lu enfants a suivre leurs traces. Dans les graves in extenso les remarques que faisait le depute Harry circonstances que nous traversons, il est important pour Enns par rapport a la position des groupes ethniques la nation metisse d'avoir une organisation nationale. au Canada et au Manitoba en particulier. Je ne realisais Pour cela, formons d'abord un comite; nommons-le pas a ce moment-la que ce que M. Enns disait dans Comite national metis; que ce comite nomme un sous­ son texte que peut-etre l'annee prochaine certains comite, etc., etc."' groupes ethniques ce presenteraient pour faire

1144 Tuesday, 4 October, 1983

enchasser leur s droits et que l'annee apres et l'annee Nous avons, M. le president, des cette apres-midi, apres ce serail une suite infinie. Mais non! et c;:a m'a enormement surpris lorsque j'entendais M. Ce qui sembler ait avoir ete un echange de Hutton, je crois le Reverend Hutton, a la page 6 de sympathies, si pas d'autre chose, entre les groupes son memoire faire allusion aux droits de la minorite. ethniques et la Societe fr anco-manitobaine, s'avere 11 dit qu'il y a un nouveau concept qui est presents ici. maintenant une course a fair e enchasser ce billet de Je suis d'accord avec lui. J'interprete pas le nouveau credits qu'elle reclame toutes ses societas ethniques concept de la meme fac;:on que lui, de toute fac;:on. en demandant a la SFM d'appuyer l'enchassement de Moi ce que je trouve c'est ceci. Mes droits de langue leur propre langue. ea devient une vraie bouillabaisse. au Manitoba ne sont pas des droits de minorites. Ce C'est un meli-melo qui je crois n'a pas de serieux. ea sont des droits d'egalite. Je m'adonne a vivre dans un n'a pas de fondement, ni dans le projet qui est cette groupe minoritaire, mais mes droits sont des droits resolution, ni dans ce qu'on peut s'attendre a ce que absolument d'egalite. Si je suis en minorite, ce n'est le gouver nement federal puisse accorder. lmaginez-vous pas de ma faute. C'est 1890 qui l'a cause. Parce que s'il fallait enchasser 32 langues dans la Constitution si 1890 n'eut eu lieu, certainement beaucoup plus de du Manitoba, et cela avec la sanctionnement du Quebecois se seraient diriges vers le Manitoba. Que gouvernement federal, que deviendrait des autres c;:a plaise ou que c;:a ne plaise pas a ceux qui n'auraient pr ovinces? Et plus particulier ement, nous osons croire pas aime cela. puisque la province ou la circonscription de Louis Riel M. le president, il n'est pas trop tard. Vous savez en 1869 etait celle de tout le territoire du Nord-Ouest, comme moi qu'il y a beaucoup de gens qui viennent etait celle qui couvrait ce que sont devenues plus tar d du Quebec pour s'etablir au Manitoba. 11 y en a qui se les provinces de I' Alberta et de la Saskatchewan en rendent meme au B. C., en Colombie-Br itannique et qui 1905. subissent la, comme la radio et la television nous l'ont Et alors vous etes pas sans savoir vous qui etes dans appris dernierement, de cruelles discriminations. 11 est le domaine public que tres tot, je dirais d'ici quelques temps d'agir. Et puisque le Manitoba est le premier annees, la Saskatchewan et I' Alberta vont se fair e dire des enfants nes a la Confederation canadienne apres par la Cour supreme du Canada qu'elles doivent cette union de 1867, ..::est cet enfant premier qui doit respecter le franc;:ais dans leur province distinctive montrer l'exemple. L'exemple que vous donnerez au comme etant une langue officielle. Que peuvent attend re Manitoba, et l'ecriture est la sur le mur pour tout le les citoyens de langue fr anc;:aise et ceux de langue monde a voir, le fait qu'on apprend cette apres-midi anglaise qui desirent le franc;:ais dans ces provinces si que les trois partis politiques au gouvernement federal nous ici au Manitoba, avec un droit enchasse tel que vous prient, avec toutes delicatesses j'espere mais avec celui que constitut la section 23, que peuvent s'attendre toutes pressions possibles, de s'il vous plait aller de les citoyens de la pr ovince de Saskatchewan et l'avant, allez-y de l'avant. 11 n'y a per sonne qui en sera I' Alber ta, si nous, nous avons resolu a ne donner que le plus pauvre. Tout le monde en sera enrichi. Faudrait des miettes. laisser de cote les energumenes. Laissons de cote tous C'est pour quoi, M. le president, s'il vous taut revenir ces gens qui nous apportent des solutions qui a !'entente des trois partis qui a ete signee ou sur sembleraient vouloir dire reculons l'horloge, refaisons laquelle vous vous etes donnes la main le 17 mai dernier, la Constitution ou faisons une nouvelle constitution a je suis pret a vivr e avec les services dans les groupes tous les ans pour refleter ce que la voix du peuple, ce distinctifs de la ou le nombr e suffi, lorsque le nombre que la democratie nous demande. le demande. Parce qu'avec la declaration parapluie, la M. le president, les droits de la minorite, j'ai deja declar ation primordial qui etablit les deux langues traites. L'enchassement des droits, je n'y touche pas; comme etant officielles au Manitoba, j'espere qu'avant j'ai deja developpe cette chose-la. Le referendum au trop longtemps on enseignera le franc;:ais comme plebiscite, j'aimerais dire un mot. C'est une bombe. matiere obligatoire a partir de la premiere annee au C'est dangereux ce plebiscite-la. Je suis pres a accepter Manitoba. Et dans trois ou quat re generations, il y aura l'une ou l'autre des decisions pour ou contr e le des services par tout - a Dauphin, a Brandon, et le reste. developpement de la resolution par la Legislature du Vous m'avez deja entendu parler de mon reve et je Manitoba ou le pr ocessus de M. Bilodeau devant la n'y attarderai pas ce soir. Cour supreme. Mais les conseillers en campagne M. le president, lorsqu'on par le qu'il y a beaucoup electorale vont-ils pouvoir contenir le debat sur la de travail a faire, et sur c;:a je fais encore allusion au question referendaire? Parce que ceux qui etaient les noble, je dirais meme fameux, la fameuse presentation auteurs de cette plebiscite au Manitoba, autant M. de le pr ofesseur Soufi qui nous a donne un expose Harms, president de I' Union des municipalites, que ceux qu'on pour rait appele peut-etre un de l'exterieur puisque qui l'ont pousse a la Legislature ou a la Cite de Winnipeg, lui vit encor e quand meme sa culture tout en etant, voulaient une autr e question. Une question qui aurait avec ses enfants, pris dans le rouage de cette culture ete desastreuse a mon avis. Nous sommes heureus a canadienne qui est en voie de developpement. Mais il cette heure de ne pas avoir la question qui aurait ete nous apporte une connaissance comme disait M. voulue. Lecuyer d'un homme qui faisait partie d'une universite M. le pr esident, il y a grand espoir pour l'avenir. Moi­ l'a ou on enseigne pas mains d'une dizaine de langues. meme, je suis si longtemps pris par cette question M. le president, c'est dans cette optique qu'il nous constitutionnelle, que je languis. J'ai hate qu'on passe faudrait envisager l'avenir. Base sur les deux langues a d'autres choses. Et deja mon esprit s'envole. officielles et avec la part que nous donne toutes les 11 y un avenir a notre pays pour ceux qui j'ai entendus autres langues et toutes autres cultures, la culture encore ce soir, quand M. Tr udeau se retirera, ou quand canadienne, dans les generations a venir, sera la plus M. Tr udeau sera remplace, il y aur a certainement un riche au monde. successeur a la tete de notr e pays. Et nous lui

1145 Tu esday, 4 October, 1983 souhaitons benne chance. Pour se faire independant The moral - envy pertains to no other happiness than de tous partis politiques comme je le suis, et c;:a je what it derives from the misery of other people, and parle autant au nom de I' Union nationale metis qui est will rather eat nothing itself than not starve those that absolument a politique, je me suis procure would. personnellement deux billets pour assister a la reception The context in which I was saying this is that, que doit donner le parti conservateur du Manitoba a unforunately, there are some people of the minority son chef national Brian Mulroney le 19 octobre ce mois. ethnic groups who feel that they must, at all cost, bark Messieurs du parti conservateur qui etes ici ce soir, loud enough to keep the French-Canadians from having j'ai aucune intention pour le moment de joindre votre the rights that were so unlawfully removed from them parti. Mais je vous pose cette question. Pouvez-vous in 1890. That, I think, is a very very good reminder of faire de la place dans votre parti politique pour un what was already seen more than 2,000 years ago. Canadien franc;:ais ici au Manitoba. S'il vous faut dire M. le president - (Interjection) - yes, oh this. I was a ces individus, dans vos rangs, sur la scene provinciale wanting to bring this to your attention. What you see comme sur la scene federal, de la trempe de Dan behind Monseignor Empson who is now just recently MacKenzie, de soit se retirer ou de grace se moderer named as Chairman of the Manitoba Alcohol ou de rien dire, je crois que vous allez montrer signe Foundation, I believe, is le drapeau de I'Union nationale que vous voulez faire de la place. M. Mulroney, j'en metis. lt is our flag. lt was the flag of Louis Aiel's suis certain, serail des plus heureux. Et c'est c;:a que Provisional Government of 1869, and as you see it is je vois. Je vois le besoin d'un equilibre dans ces deux still regarded as our flag today with the ensign and the grands partis du pays, les deux grands partis politiques. fleur-de-lis. I would only hope that once the Province Que le conservateur perde des votes dans I'Ouest parce of Manitoba recognizes its official status of a bilingual qu'il a dit a son extreme droite, vous en avez deja trop province that we might again, once more, consider that dit sur l'antimetrique, vous en avez deja trop dit sur to be the Manitoba flag. lt is a lot to ask, but I think l'antifranc;:ais. S'il vous plait, passez done a un autre it is an honest request. it's not going to be the flag parti politique. Ce cette fac;:on, peut-etre que les liberaux debate of the Federal Government, but it is one that gagneront des sieges dans I'Ouest. Et ce n'est rien de would only reflect what the Metis themselves wanted mal dans les democraties de souhaiter benne chance in 1869, and what this province was created as, a I' opposition. Et je souhaiterais bonne chance au parti respecting the two main cultures, and it certainly doesn't conservateur au Quebec parce que vous savez, comme take anything from all those other people who have moi, que !'Ontario est sensible au Quebec. Et les come to this province to participate in the growing electeurs conservateurs en Ontario seront plus certains culture and not to impose their language. de voter Mulroney s'ils savent que le parti adopte une Thank you, Mr. Chairman. politique nationale forte vibrante pour tout le pays. M. le president, je m'adresse encore a ce parti MR. CHAIRMAN: Your time has slightly more than conservateur et c'est dommage qu'il ne soit pas ici. expired. Questions for Mr. Forest? Je vois qu'il a encore laisse ses papiers, M. Sterling Mr. Doern. Ly on. Le soir meme de la reception de M. Mulroney, je vais demander a M. Ly on de me presenter a son MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I have three or four chef. Je voudrais aider a ce parti politique de regarder separate and probably distinct questions. Yo u made a vers l'avenir parce que c'est tres important. 11 y en a statement, Mr. Forest, about a month ago that Mr. d'autre que moi. Je voyais dans La Liberte, dans nos Penner had committed treason. I wonder if you could journaux dernierement, les remarques de M. Camil explain that remark. That's pretty strong language . Chaput, qui a la reception qu'a tenue la Societe franco­ manitobaine a Sainte-Anne, indiquaient qu'il y avait un MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. certain malaise. 11 y en a combien d'autres de gens conservateurs de tous les temps qui se sentent mal ici MR. R. DOERN: ...and I'm not here to defend the au Manitoba. Et ce n'est pas naturel. Ce n'est pas du Attorney-General, but I wonder . . . tout naturel. 11 taut que quelque chose soit faite et si vous m'acceptez, Messieurs du parti conservateur, de MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. That statement was vous aider a tracer cette voie. Je suis la. Merci M. le president. Je vais terminer en disant, not made as part of the presentation today. it's not vous avez lu devant vous toutes sortes de papiers. our purpose to go back to previous presentations or Vous avez vu, et <;a jeI' attire a !'attention de mon bon other statements. Questions only for clarification of the ami Russell, celui qui parle du chien dans la creche. brief presented tonight. And that item, Mr. Chairman, I'll come back to my MR. R. DOERN: other language that I can use fairly well. The dog in Well, I will then reword what I am the manger, I was speaking about that on the 8th of interested in, and I want to ask you what you think of September, and someone was able to find this in the the proposed amendments? Winnipeg Library. lt comes from Aesop's Fables, which are something like 600 years before Christ, and it reads MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Forest. like this, at Page 155 of this one book: "A churlish envious cur was gotten into a manger, MR. G. FOREST: I was happy, although I wasn't present and there laid growling and snarling to keep the horses at Ste. Anne, I wasn't well that evening, I had not from their provender. The dog ate none himself, and planned earlier to be, but on the very day of this very yet rather ventured to starving his own carcass, then momentous occasion in Ste. Anne I was able to learn he would suffer anything else to be the better for it." what Mr. Robert was going to say in his presentation.

1146 Tuesday, 4 October, 1983

Because it was so positive, I then regretted not having MR. G. FOREST: Union Nationale Metisse St. Joseph. psyched myself to go. But on the other hand, I was not well and I had a lecture to give at the Mennonite MR. G. LECUYER: . . . and I was wondering, Mr. Brethren School the next morning at 10 o'clock, and Forest, if the comments you were making towards the therefore I decided not to go. end of your speech, which had to do with, I think, what But as a result of Mr. Robert's assertive statement one might call advice to the members of the opposition that it is only the agreement of the 17th of May that and offers of your support, or efforts that you offered they will be satisfied with, I feel that the comments that towards them, were also made on behalf of the Union I had made earlier about Mr. Penner or about the Nationale Metisse. amendments to the resolution are now passe. MR. G. FOREST: I don't think that my president would MR. R. DOERN: And therefore you are withdrawing be at all foreign to the idea, because he is, himself, a that statement? very strong Conservative person. I have not previously cleared with them, because I told you that I was doing MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. it on my own. Frankly, I can discuss that at our next meeting. MR. G. FOREST: What is said is said. MR. G. LECUYER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. Questions with regard MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, S. Ashton: to previous statements were ruled out of order. Mr. Mr. Anstett. Doern, you have done this in the past. Please, when MR. ANSTETT: the Chair directs that certain lines of questioning are A. Mr. Forest, just a couple of out of ord9r, respect the Chair's direction. Do you have questions. Yo u spoke tonight with regard to Section a different line of questioning, please? 23.1, and in your brief I got the impression that you were willing to consider a package similar to one that MR. R. OOERN: Mr. Chairman, it has come up many would be fashioned on the principles of the May 17th times, and I wonder - there's been many references agreement in your reference to Mr. Robert and, then to Mr. Forest's experiences and the different fights that in answer to Mr. Doern, expanded on that. he's been involved in - if he could clear up a point, Is that a change from an earlier position, or is that and that is in regard to your legal battles in regard to an expansion on a position in which you held only a your parking ticket challenge, can you indicate what declaratory statement was required? Are you suggesting the total cost of that procedure was? to the committee that basically the full statement of principles is now acceptable to you? MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, order please. Mr. Forest, did MR. G. FOREST: The full statement, which was the you make mention to that case in your brief? entente that was presented to us on the 24th of May at the St. Boniface College, I adhered to that. I gave MR. G. FOREST: No, in no way. my full support to that, but I broke ranks immediately upon reading the texts of the amendments of MR. CHAIRMAN: Once again, Mr. Doern, the question September 6th, and that is where I made some very then is out of order. I didn't hear the reference in the strong statements, I agree. But as far as I'm concerned, brief. and this would have to go back to what I have said before and the way I feel about entrenching services, MR. R. DOERN: Well, Mr. Chairman, I have a number I feel that you'd only entrench services if you want to of questions, but perhaps I'll clear them with Mr. Forest limit a right. Therefore, I'm afraid of limiting the right later. They concern various things that he's involved and therefore I have stated that limiting services to a in and interested in, but perhaps weren't covered in ghetto area where numbers warrant, in my opinion, is the brief. low abhorrent and that again I can identify with the Metis and the Native people, our ancestors. In that MR. CHAIRMAN: If they don't relate to the brief, I'm context, Mr. Anstett, I feel and I've said it before that sorry, I'd had to rule them all out of order or I would I am flying above the need to be within a ghetto area. be inconsistent with all the previous guidelines I have If the government had only one thing to do, and from received from the committee. Further questions? my knowledge of the court case as they have been Ms. Phillips. going on since 1979, Mr. Bilodeau's included, the prime importance of your resolution is to establish a time MS. M. PHILLIPS: No, I just want to speak on the fr: :me for translation. The idea of entrenching services point of order, Mr. Chairperson. is secondary. So along with the time frame, a basic declaration, a reaffirmation of the two official languages, MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Lecuyer. would in my opinion be the minimum that you should do. That in my opinion is something that you should MR. G. LECUYER: I have just have one question, Mr. do. Chairman, to Mr. Forest. Mr. Forest, I understand and you stated you were MR. A. ANSTETT: Just one short follow-up before I speaking here to us tonight on behalf of the Union come to the next question. You say a minimum, but Nationale Metisse St. Joseph du Manitoba . . .. you're willing to accept the broader package.

1147 Tu esday, 4 October, 1983

MR. G. FOREST: I'm willing to accept, because based uttered in 1874, at the time of a political election, at on that declaration, I'm sure that the door is open for the time when he was elected as a member in Ottawa, the future. "All we want is the application of Section 23, nothing more, but equally, nothing less." MR. A. ANSTETT: My second question then of the two I wanted to pose, Mr. Forest, relates to the MS. M. PHILLIPS: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. declaratory section, and both in your brief and in your answers you have talked about the strength of your MR. CHAIRMAN, A. Anstett: Further questions for Mr. commitment to that. Forest? Would you have strong exception to a declaratory Mr. Graham. statement, just to get an understanding of where you're coming from, similar to the one contained in the federal MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, through you to Mr. Constitution Act of 1981? Forest. Mr. Forest, you made mention in your address to us that you took strong exception to the position MR. G. FOREST: No, there you are talking about a the SFM was taking after the amendments that were limited statement. I would be tending to go towards placed before this committee on the 6th of September, the declaration for New Brunswick if that is of any was that correct? assistance to you. But my main concern about the need to reaffirm the two official languages is based primarily MR. G. FOREST: I did indicate that, Mr. Chairman, on the fact that the 1890 law itself said "an act declaring through you to Mr.- it is possibly and I was surprised that English is the official language of Manitoba." We myself in reading the minutes of Mr. Teillet of the 16th have lived for 90 years with that assertion and in order of July, 1916: "But it is my nature to make a quick to reinstate the status of the French language, a like judgment." declaration is necessary encompassing both, not to And at the time of the presentation of the 6th of limit them to Section 23. 1890 did not state an act to September, I felt that something was going wrong make English the official language insofar as Section because there had evidently not been a new meeting 23 is concerned; it was making it the language of the between the three parties and, for this resolution to province ... be tabled, somehow this drew me to say quickly, things aren't right. That's why my reaction was so sudden. MR. A. ANSTETT: Just one very quick supplementary Frankly, of course, this is now water under the bridges to that, Mr. Chairman. What do you see is the difference over the Red River, but because of the battle that we between the federal declaration statement and the New are in I have already suggested several times to some Brunswick? Yo u appeared to make a distinction between of the people involved with the SFM, they should have them, and 1 don't have the act in front of me, so I'm constituted sort of a war committee meeting at 6:30 not clear myself, but I didn't think there was a every morning in order to prepare what was going on substantive difference, do you see one? and to decide, because this is the battle of the century for the rights of the French Canadian. I think anybody MR. G. FOREST: The federal declaration statement here would respect them for doing that. That is the in Section 81 I think is derived from The Official nature of the beast that I would have directed and Languages Act, which was so constructed to be able certainly would have been kept on top of it and being to apply to those provinces where French is not an able to react more quickly. official language. lt was not intended per se for 1 think what's happening now with the resolutions of Manitoba, nor for Quebec, Ontario or New Brunswick, the MARL on Friday is because of the SFM not having but for provinces like B.C., for Newfoundland. That is spoken fast enough. They're allowing everybody else where I think the question of numbers warrant comes to try and get their foot in the door before it's closed in and things like that. That's not the aspect that you're again. thinking of? MR. H. GRAHAM: In your mind, Mr. Forest, will the MR. A. ANSTETT: Perhaps we can discuss that some proposed amendments and the subsequent proposal other time. that we received here just in the last few days seriously undermine the position of the French community in MR. G. FOREST: Separately. Manitoba?

MR. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. G. FOREST: Now we're talking on the amendments as against the resolution itself? MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Ms. Phillips. MR. H. GRAHAM: That's right. MS. M. PHILLIPS: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. Mr. Forest, you said mostly in answers to the questions MR. G. FOREST: I am prepared to wager that if the from my colleagues but also in your brief, I believe, amendments are brought in and even if they are passed your opinion of the .amendments. I'm wondering what with the majority that the government holds the Federal the opinion is of the group that you are representing Government should not approve it; therefore, it's time tonight on the proposed amendments to the agreement. wasted.

MR. G. FOREST: Our position I think can be said very MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Forest, when you made your eloquently in those very words that Louis Riel himself initial break, should I say, or made your position known

1148 Tu esday, 4 October, 1983

after the amendments were placed and the Franco­ board, we were able to limit that particular program Manitoban Society explained their position, was that to seven classrooms in our school. I'm not happy to done on a matter of principle or was it a snap judgment say that it was limited, because I feel that the program that you were making? will grow. But I'm happy that the fact is that we were able to keep, in particular, the Special Education MR. G. FOREST: Snap, but with principle. Program, which is not only so vital to the children that it educates from the disability learning stage, but also MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, Mr. Forest, in his from the fact that it also helps to educate the children remarks made several mentions of members of the on sounder footing that work with these children at the Conservative Party and his desire to sit down and Grades 5 and 6 level. discuss matters with members of the Conservative Now, I have listened at these sessions to Mr. Forest, Party. I know Mr. Forest, being a man of principle, and and I have received history lesson after history lesson I think it would be an excellent idea to sit down with from he and other members who are supporting this members of the Conservative Party, who are also men program. I am thankful for that effort because I've of principle. I thank him for the invitation. learned a lot; however, I still feel this is all dealing with what's in the past. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Graham. Further Presently, the way the French language is being taught questions from honourable members for Mr. Forest? in the school, this to me is the key issue. I feel it is being taught poorly. At the present basis of Immersion, Seeing none, Mr. Forest, thank you very much and the we are teaching separation and segregation. This also association for your presentation here this evening. breeds bigotry, and we are teaching it right to our children, and why? Because we are separating our MR. G. FOREST: Thank you very much. children, we are dividing them into groups, we are making special cliches. We are saying to the children, MR. CHAIRMAN: Unless there is anyone else in the you are different. gallery whose name was not on the list who wishes to Already I've heard JC'Oblems, just recently, of what's make a presentation, last call. happening in St. Boniface in the high school - I forget the name of it, I think it's Belliveau - but I already heard MR. B. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman, my name is Barry that the teenage children are at war with one another. Tu rnbull. I wasn't going to speak but, as many of you Why? Because we adults, politicians, school trustees, have seen, I've attended quite a few of the hearings. we have made them different. We have set up barriers I am amazed that no one has touched on the things of communication, and that is the most important thing, that are deep in my heart that I got involved in some is the fact that we have set up the barriers, the walls, two years ago, when the issue came up of putting the the children cannot communicate to one another any French language into our school. more. Now, I represented a group that opposed this situation I question the Liberal and the NDP financing of a and immediately we were labelled as bigots and minority group within a minority, and I call the SFM a radicals. We found this very hard to believe because minority within the French community. Mr. McDonald's it was not only coming from people within the speech of yesterday, or was it two days ago, of where community that were supporting the bilingual process, he was questioned for financing, gave cause to believe but it was coming from trustees on school boards, that there was some mistrust in his credibility, that he principals, superintendents of schools, secretary­ was in fact another federal-provincial NDP shill. I say treasurers. This was really disheartening because we that because he is not honest; he is afraid to bring were fighting something that was foreign to us. We forth the facts. were very ignorant of the situation, but we weren't The busing of the people to Ste. Anne was another fighting it for the sake of French Immersion coming example of playing poker with your own money. Twenty into the school. chartered buses bussed 2,000 people to Ste. Anne, In our particular school, we had a situation of English; and I think that's wonderful. we had a situation of Ukrainian bilingualism, if that's You give me 20 chartered buses and I'll fill this whole building of Anglophones that do not support you. That the correct word; and we also had a program of a isn't necessarily the way it should be. special education program for disability learning I am in favour of education. I am in favour of children children. The proposal that was put forward to us was learning the French language. I don't think it has to that they proposed to put 14 classrooms of French be done with entrenchment; I think it can be done with Immersion into our school and take one-half of the evolution. Put it properly into the schools, where it can school. That was the issue that we opposed. be gained, and total bilingualism is not necessarily the As we got deeper into it, we found that the proposals answer. were: No. 1, to remove the Special Education children There is a program that seems to be shunned called because, after all, who were they? They weren't really a French Core Program. The facts that have been people; we would just cart them off to another school presented to the school boards state clearly that the someplace. After all, what do they know? They don't program does work with a great deal of success. lt care. The second step was to remove the Ukrainian does not make a person bilingual, but it does give the Immersion Program and park that off in another school person a firm foundation of becoming bilingual. The to make room for the uprising French Immersion latest reports I read was that three months in a total courses. immersion situation will produce a bilingual person. I'm happy to say that after some degree of Now, if there is anybody that has other facts to that, negotiations with the school trustees and the school I would be glad to hear them.

1149 Tu esday, 4 October, 1983

We talked about bigotry and prejudice in our briefs. rule, not a fact of one that has to be entrenched. Thank I've heard them time after time, and I'm sick of hearing you. them. Anybody who is opposed is a bigot, is a racist, and this predominantly is brought on by anybody who MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Turnbull. Questions basically supports the French entrenchment. for Mr. Tu rnbull from members of the committee? We talk about organizations and unions that support Mr. Doern. the SFM. These, gentlemen, I say to you, are individuals. They are not the masses. MR. R. DOERN: Two questions: Mr. Turnbull, you I sat here and my wife held me down two nights ago talked about barriers of communication and you talked when the union that I am a member of, the president about a concern for elitism, are you saying that your stood here, without justification, and supported the concern is the fact that in Immersion programs or in amendments as put forward by the NDP. That union bilingual programs that the separation element and the president has since been taken to task and he'll account fact that one group will be bilingual and the great for it tomorrow night at a meeting. Because it was not majority of people will not will produce very negative only my doing, but it was members of the employees' results? union that got very demanding on how one individual could stand up here and make statements for 1,000 MR. B. TURNBULL: Very definitely, I have fact - it all people without consulting them, without consulting his started I believe with William Osier School. There are executive, without consulting his shop stewards. Let many other people who can give you facts, too, that me tell you there is turmoil within our union because were in it much earlier than I whereby the school was of it. lt is not that the people don't support it, it's the suffering under - lack of enrolment. point that they were not given the right to choose. They were told that they support it. MR. R. DOERN: Declining enrolment. As long as this kind of kangaroo court is going to continue, you're going to have turmoil, you're going to MR. B. TURNBULL: Declining enrolment, and that have unrest, and you may end up even with civil war. school was chosen for a bilingual setting, an Immersion Mr. Forest may go down as another Louis Aiel. They setting. Keeping with the rules of the school board, may hang him, but unfortunately it won't be a legal etc., children were bussed in from other areas of hanging, it will be a lynching. Those are strong words Winnipeg that wanted to have this teaching. and I realize that maybe they're out of context, because I have letters from people in the area that I could I believe that Mr. Forest is doing what he feels is right produce, if warranted. One I was asked not to, but I for his people. But unfortunately Mr. Forest speaks for don't think that's a problem today because I received a very small majority of his people, because I, like others, this letter two years ago and this was from a very have very many strong friends who are of French prominent doctor. He openly states that he tried very ancestry. They have told me that they do not support diligently to live with the situation as many parents the entrenchment of bilingual rights. They do not feel were pulling their children out of the school because that they need it; they do feel intimidated. they didn't want it, or for whatever reasons. He was 1 have friends of Anglophone origin that live in lie one who stuck with the program. When the principal des Chenes. They thought this was a great idea to put was removed from the school for whatever reason and their child in French Immersion. Well, they didn't choose a Francophone was put in his place, they found the French Immersion, they chose the Francais Program. road of equal rights to both segments of the program That child went through Grades 1 to 6. The reports all eroded immensely. The next thing that came in were came home from her school saying, "Beautiful, the the milieus, and we must have this area, and the children child's doing wonderful, just great," and the child can't must be segregated, and we don't want the English speak French. But come Grade 7, she's no longer a children to participate with the French Immersion good student. She's a handling problem. Why? All of children because that detracts from learning the a sudden, she's a handling problem. Grades 1 to 6, language. she had beautiful marks, participated in the French I have other facts on a school in Fort Garry where Program, did well. Now, all of a sudden, she's a French the children are definitely separated. There is a French handling problem. Her teacher has given up on her, end of the school and there is an English end of the he'll teach her, but he won't stay with her. So therefore school. The children start at different starting times. we have a child that has spent six years in a program They have recess periods at different times, lunch hours and has now been taken out of the program, put into at different times, a matter of 15 minutes either way the Anglophone program and is now doing well in just to avoid conflict with the children. The reason I English. know that is because I have a personal friend who is However, the travesty of the justice is that child has in that area who has a boy now in Grade 5 and her lost six years of education and may eventually lose her youngest was starting kindergarten last year. That child right to become bilingual. This is a crime. would now be in Grade 1. She did enrol! her child in Gentlemen, the way we're going, entrenchment I don't the program because she felt that this was the thing think is the real case. I think if we let things go on a to do because of the federal commitment to normal course of events, put the education into the bilingualism, that jobs depended on it. school where all children can be taught, the You know, you can see it through the Armed Forces, entrenchment will not be a question, it'll become a fact. the Civil Service, the RCMP, you name it. So goes Yo u won't have to say that English is the only language French, so goes your promotions. because many of our children, probably not in your I have the latest facts that - how can I say this? time or mine, will become bilingual. It'll be an accepted People of scientific nature are being hired and replacing

1150 Tuesday, 4 October, 1983 doctorates and are being trained on the job to become superior to the unilingual students because of their doctors of philosophy or whatever you want to call it. status in this program? I don't know the correct words for it. These are all little things that irritate. People are MR. B. TURNBULL: I can honestly answer that by afraid; they are fearful; they're afraid of the unknown. saying "no." The area that I'm involved with right now They're afraid of what can happen to their children. is very young in the program. I have tried as a citizen Yo u ask the average person why they are putting their member to advise our school board of these situations, children in the bilingual program. They don't tell you and I've tried to head it off in our area, because I feel that the child is there because they think it's a great �hat the French program can be taught in unison with education experience, which the answer should be. They the Anglo programs, and the Ukrainian programs, and tell you that my child will not be able to get a federal the German programs, and they can be taught with job. Now, isn't that a travesty, that the only jobs available harmony, but they'll never be taught in harmony as to the population of Canada are government jobs? But long as you segregate children. that's what the public fear. I've asked that question I just wait, like the present program we are running because it was put to me by a citizen of St. Boniface. in our school, we are running at the Grade 3 level. I've I couldn't quite believe it because that's the first time heard educators in our area and trustees say, "We I heard it. I made it a point to go out and ask people don't have any problems. There is no fighting or who I knew, friends of mine, who were in the French misconception of the individuals." And 1 say, "The Immersion Program, why they enrolled their child in program is a young, it is just growing." French Immersion. That was not all the time the answer, From my experience from my own two children, who but quite a few times that was the answer I received, I have been quite successful in keeping my stand on "Their child will not be able to get a government job." the issue private from them up until this last year - - (lnterjection)- they're both in high school now - it took me two years l'd like to go on if I may, because the more I talk to establish a parents' group in our schooL I can about this, the more I get wound up, I remember things. honestly tell you that the principal of that school is We talk about the funding, and I heard Mr. Ashton doing everything withir. his power to destroy that group, say something to the effect of how much money has because he doesn't like the interfArence of the school been allotted by the Provincial Government? Maybe membership, parents. I'm sad to say that I will be issuing it's to a minimum amount, considering the fact of what my comments to the school board and I am going to has to be done, or what has potentially been agreed publicly ask for this man's removal, because I feel he upon, but the fact still remains is that the people, the is not only a detriment to our children, he is a detriment Anglophone people, who happen to be the majority, to all the children because he is not looking at things are fearful because of the reported - and these are in an equitable manner. facts, they are written in Hansard. I'll give you another example. There has been talk in our school, and I have no foundation for this fact I have a copy of one, that in 1981, I believe the outside of it's hearsay, except for one thing. I know of various ethnic communities of the St. Boniface proper one person. New children are coming into our school area were given to the tune of $600,000 financing from and we have reason to believe that they are not being the Federal Government - $600,000 and I think about told that there is an English program within the schooL the unemployment of Canada. I think about the They are being sold the merits of bilingualism in the Medicare programs in Canada and countless other French and Ukrainian language. I have it on fact that things, and I say to myself, couldn't this money have one person, who is an immigrant, came into the school been used to greater extent? Couldn't we have to register and she was interested in the English benefited the starving people of our nation, the Program. She was shown the Ukrainian Program - this unemployed? What is it, something like 800,000 woman happened to be Ukrainian, by the way - and unemployed in Canada? - (Interjection) - she was shown the French Program. She went from Now, you see I hear the little catcalling in the there to another school who taught English and German. background of the pro-bigot group in the back that The principal of that school, once finding out where don't appreciate facts and figures coming out. They she lived, directed her to Springfield Heights, and she sit here and catcalL told the principal they don't have an English Program I remember a man here yesterday who was ejected there. from this meeting for this very same thing, because he I question what's going on in our education system. spoke his mind. I don't say he was justified in what he Are our school boards, are our school trustees, are did, but he was thrown out of the meeting because he our superintendents and principals being guided to push spoke his mind. this Immersion Program at all costs? I question that, But if you are a French supporter, and you come to because that's the kind of distrust that is being reaped this meeting, you can say all the things you want, and in the area. it's sad, it really is, because 1 don't think the present government stands there and agrees with any person in t��ir right mind has anything against a it. person l�arning another language. Gentlemen, I submit to you, it's all in the way the MR. R. DOERN: My final question, Mr. Tu rnbull, is this: soup is being made. Again, on the same topic, you express the concern about elitism and the separation of students and so MR. R. DOERN: Thank you, Mr. Tu rnbull. on, do you have any comment or knowledge or information about the students themselves, whether MR. CHAIRMAN: Further questions from members of they are acting in a manner or consider themselves the committee?

1151 Tuesday, 4 October, 1983

Seeing none, Mr. Tu rnbull, thank you very much for The work that is before us still is extensive, and your presentation this evening. was just wondering if there was some indication of That concludes the presentation hearing portion of when we could have the Hansard additions so we could the meetings. The Chair hasn't been notified of any then begin our work. intention to call subsequent meetings, so I take it the next meeting would be at the call of the Chair, unless MR. CHAIRMAN: The Clerk has advised that they there is further business before the committee. should all be done by the end of next week at the latest, Mr. Graham. done and printed and in members' hands. Of course, that's based upon the Clerk's best estimate MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, I have a question at this point, having talked to the Hansard Co-ordinator that probably is one that the Clerk might be able to earlier in the day. I can get the member a firmer estimate answer. perhaps tomorrow or Thursday. There have been numerous briefs that have been filed and we, as members, have not yet seen those MR. H. GRAHAM: That I thank you for, Mr. Chairman. briefs. Have we any indication when the addendum will I was just looking at what kind of time frame we're be printed and when we can expect to get the recorded looking at when you mention the next meeting should Hansard of all of the hearings to date? be at the call of the Chair. Realizing that it is going to be another 10 days before we have the material before MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm advised that the transcript for us, I think it's a pretty voluminous task that is before this meeting will include all of the 95, I believe, written us, and I'm sure that there will be some contact before briefs to date; that it may well be, because of the volume that time as to the suitability of the next meeting, so of that particular transcript, that it may not be available I'm quite willing to abide by the call of the Chair for until the middle or end of next week. The other the next meeting. transcripts up to that one have been coming on a fairly regular basis, and I expect the balance should be caught MR. CHAIRMAN: I would make one point, Mr. Graham, up by the end of this week or early next week. in accordance with a request of members at the The Hansard staff, because of the volume and also beginning of these hearings, I had asked Hansard staff because of the translation that has been involved, are and asked them to ask the Queen's Printer to put the doing the best they can, but there have been some transcripts of these hearings on the same basis as they delays. do the transcripts of Hansard of the Assembly itself, Mr. Graham. so that the fastest possible reproduction and turnaround time could be accomplished because of the importance MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, does that include the of the issue. They have been doing that, but certainly translations? the volume of some of the transcripts and the translation have meant some delays. MR. CHAIRMAN: The translation of briefs presented With regard to the time for the next meeting, as Chair, in French to English, they have originally appeared in I don't have any specific information at this time, but French in the transcript of the hearing at which they I think it's reasonable to assume that since the meeting were given. The translation has appeared in the earliest to consider an initial draft report of the Standing subsequent issue of the transcript at which it was Committee on Agriculture considering the Western available, so they have appeared on an ongoing basis. Transportation Initiative, the whole Crow issue, was For example, all of the briefs given in French at the some four weeks or thereabouts after the hearings initial Winnipeg hearings have already appeared, I ended, I think on this issue it's not an unreasonable believe, in the Swan River or Ste. Rose transcript as assumption to think that it may well take that long or an appendix to that, and they are cross-referenced as longer. to the original issue. I know that members in the government feel there lt may be possible, if perhaps each caucus might is a time imperative, but that's something that's going like, we have avoided this so far, but if there is some to have to be decided. I assume the Chair will be advised urgency in terms of seeing the written briefs, we are by the government when it wishes to have the first reluctant to copy all of the 95 written briefs for every meeting to consider the report and that will be done member and felt we only put them in the transcript to in consultation with the opposition. I understand that's avoid fairly extensive costs and volume of material. it's normal practice. a stack almost a foot high, and Hansard is currently working on the documents to get them into the MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. transcript, which is what the committee had earlier requested. lt may be possible by Friday of this week MR. CHAIRMAN: One other item I would have - Mr. to produce one complete set for each caucus. Ly on.

MR. H. GRAHAM: No, Mr. Chairman, that wasn't the HON. S. LY ON: I think you've already confirmed it, Mr. request that we are making at all. What I am concerned Chairman, and if so, the question is redundant. If there about, and I'm sure every member is concerned about, could be any indication from members of the we have heard numerous briefs, it's going to take time government, who are at the committee tonight, about to assess those briefs, and it would be beneficial to your expectation and it would be mine, too, that at the have the complete recorded Hansards for that, so that very least we would not be convening until after all we would have it all in one uniform size where we could members had had the opportunity of having all copies do our work. of Hansard in front of them; that's No. 1.

1152 Tuesday, 4 October, 1983

Then, if we could expect as in the normal course HON. S. LYON: We will then adjourn with the that there would be sufficient notice, as Mr. Graham presumption that common sense will prevail. has indicated, given so that people on both sides of the House can order their affairs to be at the committee MR. CHAIRMAN: I trust we always adjourn that way. meetings; that's No. 2. I think you have quite properly indicated that kind of notice would be given by you as HON. S. LY ON: soon as possible. We live in hope. Then, No. 3, I would expect again, can we expect that the government at that reconvened meeting two, MR. CHAIRMAN: One other item, ladies and four weeks hence, whenever it may be, would be gentlemen, there may be some individuals who were working toward providing a draft, a first draft of a absent and will not now have an opportunity to present committee report, that we would have an opportunity a brief. Would it be agreed so as not to hold up the to look at preferably before the committee met or what production of tonight's transcript that any further briefs would be your expectation in that respect? that may be submitted in writing be distributed to each caucus, in terms of providing a copy initially, and then MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Ly on, all of the suggestions you printed in a subsequent transcript when we are make are reasonable and conform with past practice, but I can't speak for the government's intentions at considering the report, in other words, an initial copy this time and I don't know if anyone on the government to each caucus and printed further on down the road side of the committee can. Certainly I would say it's as an appendix? Is that suggestion agreeable? reasonable, it conforms with past practice and to do Any further business before the committee? Hearing otherwise would be a deviation from what normally none, the committee is adjourned to the call of the happens with regard to committees, both Chair. intersessionally and during the Session, when they're considering a matter on an extended basis such as (Translation will appear in Appendix at end of all this. committee hearings.) 34. Mr. Willie Dumont, Manitoba Metis Federation, lnterlake Region WRITTEN SUBMISSIONS PRESENTED, 35. Fred & Phyllis Ronge, Matlock, Manitoba BUT NOT READ 36. S.M. Taylor, Winnipeg, Manitoba 37. Theresa & Alex Novak, Winnipeg, Manitoba 1. Mr. Jim Robertson 38. Mr. Brian Lange, Moosehorn, Manitoba 2. Town of Souris 39. Presentation signed by a number of Teachers from 3. Mr. John M. Brooks Ecole St. Malo 4. Mayor A.R. Friesen, Town of Morden 40. Ms. Doris Hogue, lle-des-Chenes, Manitoba 5. Reeve J.R. Guthrie, R.M. of Pipestone 41. Mr. Gilbert Fournier, Chambre de Commerce 6. Mr. Ben Lemky, 42. Ms. Gisele Loyer, Lorette, Manitoba 7. Town of The Pas 43. Le CLub de Bicolo B. Group of Residents from Swan River 44. Yvonne Lagasse, Ste. Anne, Manitoba 9. Mr. Jim Chegwin 45. Mr. Leo Nadeau 10. R.M. of Sifton 46. Mr. Louis Fiola, Ste. Genevieve, Manitoba 11. Mme. lrene Lecomte, Ste. Rose, Manitoba 47. Ms. Carmen Catellier, Educateurs franco- 12. Ms. Helene Montsion, Comite culture! de Ste. Rose manitobains de la division de la Riviere Rouge 13. Mrs. Elvier Brunei 48. Ms. Yvette Fluet-gagnon, lie des Chenes, Manitoba 14. R.M. of Shoal Lake 49. Mr. Gilbert Legal, Ecole secondaire la Broquerie 15. Mr. Jim Reid, R.M. of Albert 50. Mr. Hubert Balcaen 16. Reeve Arnold M. Birch, R.M. of Rosedale 51. Le Club de Curling de La Broquerie 17. Mayor Ken Burgess, City of Brandon 52. Ms. Jeannine Kirouac, La Broquerie, Manitoba 53. Ms. Rachelle Ouellet, lle-des-Chenes, Manitoba 18. R.M. of Arthur 54. Comite Culture! de La Broquerie 19. Ms. Mariette Bose Saquet, Laurier, Manitoba 55. Father Gerard Clavet, Clercs de Saint-Viateur 20. Mr. Jean-Louis Saquet resident a La Broquerie 21. Mr. Rene Saquet, Laurier, Manitoba 56. Mr. Pierre Palud, Professeurs du secondaire de 22. Mr. Jacques Saquet, Wasagaming, Manitoba I'Ecole Pointe des Chenes 23. Reeve Norton E. Cassils, R.M. of Winchester 57. Ms. Claudette Lavack 24. Mr. Harry F. Robinson, Winnipeg, Manitoba 58. Mr. Hubert Bouchard, Comite protecteur Scouts- 25. Mayor M.J. Stefaniuk, Rapid City Town Council Guides Animatrices et Animateurs de La Broquerie 26. Ms. Marie-Josephe Fisette, Federation des alnes 59. Mr. Gilles Normandeau, Ecole Pointe des Chenes franco-manitobains 60. Mr. Armand Frechette, La Broquerie 27. Mr. Fablo Jajalla, Winnipeg, Manitoba 61. Mr. Leonard Desharnais, La Chambre de Commerce 28. Manitoba Municipal Administrators Association de St. Pierre-Jolys, Manitoba 29. Mr. Arno H. Jansen, United German School of North 62. Le Personnel de I'Ecole St. Joachim de La Broquerie Kildonan 63. Mr. Normand Barnabe 30. Mr. Clarence Kiesman 64. Mr. Aime Gauthier, Comite de direction du centre 31. Irish Canadian National Committee recreatif de St. Pierre 32. Ms. Elsie Jawolik, Gimli, Manitoba 65. Ms. Lyse Desharnais, Comite de parents de I'Ecole 33. L.G.D. of Fisher elementaire de St. Pierre

1153 Tuesday, 4 October, 1983

66. Mr. Aime Tetrault present. There was no more discussion on the subject. 67. Comite de patinage artistique de La Broquerie That means that French does not have to be spoken 68. Mme. lrma Gauthier, La Broquerie in Canada. The government has been fooling the people 69. Mr. Jacques Trudeau, lie des Chemes, Manitoba all these years for Quebec's 87 seats, and the provinces 70. Ms. Marjorie Beauchemin, lie des Chenes, Manitoba have been going along for political reasons. 71. Ms. Michele Lagimodiere-Gag non, Lorette, I think that is Premier Pawley's reason for wanting Manitoba to entrench French in Manitoba. 72. La ligue St. Gerard de La Broquerie The French situation in Canada is just a political farce 73. Ms. Georgette Gerardy, Comite culture! de St. Labre from start to finish. 7 4. Ms. Raymonde Graham Submitted by: Jim Robertson. 75. Therese Cloutier, s.j.m., Ste. Anne, Manitoba 76. Mr. Therese Bouchard 77. Mr. Andre Plamondon SUBMISSION NO. 2 78. S. Zelie Ruest COUNCIL, TOWN OF SOURIS 79. Ms. Lucie Dupuis To the Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections: 80. Denise & George Perron 81. Use & Roberte Boily The Council of the Town of Souris would like to thank 82. Ms. Cecile Berard you for the opportunity of presenting a brief regarding 83. Mrs. Sylvia Mclnnes, Ste. Anne, Manitoba the proposed amendment to Section 23 of The Manitoba 84. Mrs. J.L. Asta Asselstine, World Women's Christian Act. Temperance Union. The British North America Act of 1867, under 85. LGD of Reynolds "Miscellaneous Provisions" Section 133 stated as 86. LGD of Stuartburn follows: 87. D. Nelson, Winnipeg, Manitoba "Either the English or the French Language may 88. Mr. Ross Meggison, Goodlands, Manitoba be used by any person in the Debate of the 89. R.M. of Morris Houses of Parliament of Canada and of the 90. Dept. of Community Relations, Winnipeg Jewish Houses of the Legislature of Quebec; and both Community Council those Languages shall be used in the respective 91. Ralph James, Manitoba Association for Rights and Records and Journals of those Houses; and either Liberties of those Languages may be used by any Person 92. Supplementary submission by the Association for or in Pleading or Process in or issuing from any the Promotion of Ancestral Languages Court of Canada established under this Act, and 93. Omer Fontaine, Ste. Pierre, Manitoba in or from all or any part of the Courts of Quebec. 94. Mrs. Margaret B. Lodders, Winnipeg, Manitoba "The Acts of the Parliament of Canada and of 95. Mr. Henry Elias, Winnipeg, Manitoba the Legislature of Quebec shall be printed and published in both those Languages." At the time of enactment of said Act, Canada was SUBMISSION NO. 1 divided into four Provinces - Ontario, Quebec, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick. JIM ROBERTSON The Parliament of Canada and Houses of the Mr. Chairman and Member of the Legislature. Legislature of Quebec were singled out to provide either English or French Language services as well as Courts I do not agree with Premier Pawley wanting to of Canada and Courts of Quebec. The Parliament of entrench The Manitoba Act, Section 23, making French the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland in permanent, which means that once entrenched it cannot passing The British North America Act of 1867 must, be changed. I think that would be a step backwards, in its wisdom, have felt that French Langauge Services we might be giving future generations something that were unnecessary in the other provinces which formed they don't want. The act can be changed in the courts the Dominion of Canada. or by referendum. The Canadian Parliament in 1870 enacted legislation Two leading constitutional lawyers said that it was known as The Manitoba Act (validated by The B.N.A. possible that the Supreme Court could decide that all Act in 1871). Manitoba laws were invalid. What is Premier Pawley's "The Manitoba Act, Section 23 requires that motive for entrenching French? lt is not just the cost either the English or French language may be of the courts, and there is not enough French people used by any person in the Debates of the Houses in Manitoba to warrant the change, or does he just want of the Legislature, and both those languages shall to gain favor with Quebec? If the Manitoba Government be used in the respective Records and Journals wants to demonstrate constitutional process they should of those Houses; and either of those languages have a referendum. may be used by any person, or in any Pleading In 1968, I watched the Premiers and Prime Ministers or Process, in or issuing from any Court of Convention on T.V. At one point they were discussing Canada established under The British North bilingualism in Canada. Waiter Weir read the part in America Act, 1867, or in or from all or any part The BNA Act concerning the two languages, "French of the Courts of the Province. The Acts of the may be spoken in the House of Commons, it may be Legislature shall be printed and published in both spoken in the Exchequers Court, and it may be spoken those languages." in Quebec." Daniel Johnson, the Premier of Quebec, In 1890 the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba and the Prime Minister and other Frenchmen were sought to abolish the use of the French Language,

1154 Tuesday, 4 October, 1983 insofar as it was to be used in the Legislature and the Morden Hearing -September 22, 1983 Courts, by passing The Official Languages Act. This Act Re: Amendment to Section 23 of The Manitoba Act was invalidated by a Supreme Court ruling in 1979. The fear of having to have all Manitoba Statutes Mr. Chairman, Ladies and Gentlemen translated into French has lead to a blackmail atmosphere whereby the Provincial Government is The Council of the Town of Morden go on record as willing to go beyond the required services and extend being in full support of Section 23 of The Manitoba Act, French Language services into other areas, such as, 1870, which states: Municipalities. "Either the English or the French Language may be The main concern of our Council is that the cost of used by an person in the Debates of the Houses of the providing French language services in Manitoba will Legislature, and both those languages shall be used in become a burden on taxpayers in one tax form or the respective records and Journals of those Houses; another. and either of those languages may be used by any Extension of French Language services as proposed person, or in any pleading or process, in or issuing from will, in our opinion, be the start of an uncontrollable any court of Canada established under The British North advantage of bilingual persons employed in both the America Act, 1867, or in or from all or any of the courts Public and Private sectors. of the province. With the above factors in mind, we would ask the The Acts of the Legislature shall be printed and Committee to convey to the Provincial Government our published in both those languages." dissatisfaction with the proposed amendment to Section And are opposed to further entrenchment of French 23 of The Manitoba Act. language rights. On behalf of Council of the Town of Morden, l request Respectfully Submitted: Council, Town of Souris, that no further amendments be made to "Section 23." Souris, Manitoba, ROK 2CO We are of the opinion that the communities of rural Manitoba can help any "ethnic group" with language problems. We feel that legislation is not required to SUBMISSION NO. 3 solve a language problem. MR. JOHN M. BROOKS, MORDEN, I can give an example: That in 1979 an international MANITOBA company opened up a manufacturing plant in Morden. Members of the family of management were not able Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections to speak one word of English and the citizens of the Morden, Manitoba. community provided interpreters for this family. Mr. Chairman: A.R. Friesen, Mayor In a word or two I would just like to say that I am Town of Morden. opposed to the amendment to The Manitoba Act entrenching the French language in the Constitution. The French-speaking population in Manitoba that SUBMISSION NO. 5 would be unable to communicate in English would be J.R. GUTHRIE, REEVE very smalL In fact, I believe it would be safe to say that RURAL MUNICIPALITY OF PIPESTONE it would almost be impossible to find any person of French origin in Manitoba who cannot speak English. Well, does this mean that should a French-speaking Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections person who wishes to communicate with a government Sirs: service be denied the right to speak French? No, it means that I, as a taxpayer, would be better off to hire The Council of the Rural Municipality of Pipestone an interpreter on that person's behalf than to have all cannot understand why any previous or present the laws written in French. lt is an unnecessary expense. Manitoba Government have made no attempt to have I might add that I believe Mr. Roland Penner, and Section 23 of The Manitoba Act of 1870 amended the present provincial government, have made a mistake (through proper channels) to coincide with The Official in bringing this issue forward at this time. Mr. Roger Language Act passed by the Manitoba Legislature in Bilodeau should have been permitted to take his case 1890. to the Supreme Court because I feel quite confident We think the Manitoba Government should listen to the Supreme Court would not let us become a province the majority of rural municipalities opposing this without laws because they were writtan in English only. legislation. In closing, I would like to say the Francophone society These municipalities have many French-speaking should be promoting English and not French, as English citizens within their boundaries, some nearly total in and not French is the most widely spoken language in population. the whole world. These people can all speak, read, write, and Respectfully Submitted: J.M. Brooks. understand English; so there is really no urgent need for a service which the province cannot afford. However, if the Government of Manitoba insist on SUBMISSION NO. 4 going ahead with this legislation (and it appears they are), then we agree with the points made to Premier MAYOR A.R. FRIES EN, TOWN OF MORDEN Pawley in a letter from our President, Dave Harms, To the Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections particularly that the French service should adhere only

1155 Tuesday, 4 October, 1983 to the Legislature and not to other government or public is that the government has endeavoured to legislate services. The legislation should be kept to a base first and educate second; we, as a Council, feel that minimum. this process should have been reversed. The present We further believe that there should be no grants format of public hearings should have been prior to whatsoever (Federal or Provincial) to any municipalities negotiations being entered into with the Societe Franco­ who wish to offer their services in the French language. Manitobaine. This would have enabled all individuals If they want it, they should have to pay for it. to state their concerns and would have undoubtedly In conclusion, the Council of the Rural Municipality lessened the fear and apprehension. Having said that, of Pipestone are strongly opposed to the proposed we recognize full well that the Attorney-General was bilingual legislation within the Province of Manitoba. faced with an impending Supreme Court Hearing which J.R. Guthrie placed obvious time constraints on all concerned. Reeve In summary, the Council of the Town of The Pas reached a positive consensus on the proposed Rural Municipality of Pipestone plan to extend French language rights in the Province of Manitoba. We do not see the services as a privilege; SUBMISSION NO. 6 rather as a right - a right which is being restored! lt appears that the foremost concerns of the majority BEN LEMKV of the municipalities in Manitoba relates to the possible In my brief to the members re French extension in inclusion of municipalities in the proposed amendments. Manitoba, I very strongly object to the principle of two The Premier has addressed this question in stating that men being able to think they can force the government the government will be proposing an amendment which to make into law majority French in Manitoba, as the will specifically exclude municipalities and school boards French have already equal rights-plus. When I shop in from any constitutional obligation under The Manitoba a store I have to make a real effort to locate the English Act as amended. This very clearly indicates that the printing on the packages. extension of French language services in Manitoba will When French was establishedas one of the two official not be imposed upon municipalities and school boards, languages, the two peoples were about equal. Now we but rather it becomes a matter of choice for each have a very different situation, there is every reason to municipality if they wish to do so. have Manitoba English. Let the French have their language in their community, where warranted, but do not force it down my throat. The Crow rates were SUBMISSION NO. 8 changed, so also can this old law of French in the SWAN RIVER AREA RESIDENTS Constitution be dropped. Ottawa does not necessarily Brief to the make good laws for Manitobans; example is, prostitution Clerk of Committees: which the provinces have no say in, yet they are the We, the undersigned, are strongly opposed to the only ones affected. proposed entrenchment in the Constitution of French I want a strong Manitoba, but by enforcing present as an official language of Manitoba for the following legislation is causing very hard feelings. reasons: Louis Riel made war in Manitoba, languages were 1. Since the 1890's, immigrants coming to also involved. Belgium had not got unity with French Manitoba have accepted and recognized English and Flemish. as the common language of the province. 1 very strongly urge our government to withdraw this Generally this policy has proven satisfactory and legislation as these two instigators have lost their cases a unifying influence in the development of the in all Manitoba courts. province. 2. Persons requiring services in the French Ben Lemky language in Manitoba continue to be a small minority out of an approximate total of six percent population of French origin. For these persons SUBMISSION NO. 7 adequate provision for service in their own COUNCIL OF THE TOWN OF THE PAS language has been provided in the Legislature The Town of The Pas recognizes that the Province and the courts of law. Under these circumstances of Manitoba and our community are made up of minority we do not believe the proposed entrenchment groups. This is a fact and, as a community which has of the French language to be realistic or a number of people of varied ethnic origins, we have warranted. seen that their presence has contributed much to our 3. We have witnesses the increasing disunity and guality of life. The proposed constitutional amendment animosity between French-speaking and English­ recognizes this reality and the Council of The Town of speaking citizens of Manitoba arising from the The Pas has publicly gone on record in support of the Federal Bilingual Policy - to say nothing of the plan to extend language rights. We have stated that tremendous cost to the taxpayer. Bitter our support has been based on the fact that the resentment has been created from what we proposed amendment is a step in restoring rights which believe has been the abuse of the act to were taken away in 1890. We feel it is reasonable to discriminate against English-speaking Canadians restore these rights and the proposed amendment will in employment and promotions in the public be the one step to "right a wrong." service. We fear that the proposed change would If there is a criticism of theproposed plan, we would open the door to similar abuseand discrimination focus on the process. The scenario which has unfolded in public affairs in Manitoba.

1156 Tuesday, 4 October, 1983

Since there appears to be many thousands of 3. What guarantees are there that this Manitobans opposed to the proposed entrenchment of amendment will not be changed in the future French as an official language for the reasons listed so that municipalities and school boards will herein, we favor the holding of a clear-cut referendum be forced to spend tremendous amounts of on this question before any change is made in the money to translate documents and teach present laws in this regard. French to staff members, or replace those who do not wish to be bilingual? Dated: Swan River, Manitoba, September 13/83 We, the Council, as elected representatives of the Bearing signatures of: residents of the Rural Municipality of Sifton, would like G.W. Finlay; R.W. Finlay; Gordon Parsons; Ralph Craig; to take this opportunity to express our opposition to William Wotherspoon; J.A. Cookshaw; Alex Macaulay; the proposed amendment to Section 23 of The Manitoba Ethel Barnfield; E.C. Sims; O.S. Brandson; E.M. Sims; Harold Dunning; A.C. Abigail; J.A. MacLeod; and C.S. Act concerning the translation of certain statutes and Robinson. the provision of French Language Services.

SUBMISSION NO. 9 SUBMISSION NO. 11 MR. JIM CHEGWIN MADAME IRENE LECOMTE

September 14th, 1983 Monsieur le President, membres du comite. L'histoire veut qu'aujourd'hui je me retrouve devant The Committee on Bilingualism for Manitoba vous pour vous exprimer mon appui aux amendements a Sirs: !'article 23 de I'Acte du Manitoba. En toute justice, cela devrait etre les legislateurs de 1890 qui reviennent 1 wish to make some brief comments, but serious, nous faire leurs excuses. on this issue. Je veux vous parler de mes freres et soeurs, de mes We must respect the Constitution as set up when parents, de mes granas-parents ainsi que leurs parents Manitoba joined Confederation, and I feel that it was qu'ont toujours trouve fierte a se dire Manitobains. sound thinking. Canayens. Certains d'entre eux se contentaient de faire I conclude this because I feel we, as a nation of people, confiance aux legislateurs en place. Quel malheur! Dans have a potential of richness because of our broad base notre histoire, il y a eu des gens jaloux, ils ne savaient of ethnic background. This richness will not come to parler qu'une langue. Des gens de peu de scrupules fruition if we are not all given equal status. On the qui preferaient radier une langue qu'ils ne connaissaient contrary, it will divide us and hurt us as a nation and pas, plutot que d'offrir a eux-memes et a leurs enfants as a community if we proceed to snuff the rights of une plus grande ouverture d'esprit: ceci en apprenant some people. le franc;:ais, langue d'un peuple d'apparence soumise. The approach taken by our Attorney-General and our Je suis heureuse de voir aujourd'hui cette meme government; and the agreement reached between legislature est prete a rendre justice a des milliers de Manitoba and the Government of Canada is very fideles Manitobains. Je vous assure que je suis ce reasonable and should be applauded. lt would appear dossier avec le plus grand interet. that most of the affected areas will have their needs Donnez raison de fierte a notre province natale en looked after. The process of "catching up" has a recommandant que la resolution pour amender I'article practical time frame and is relatively inexpensive. We 23 de I'Acte du Manitoba telle que negociee en mai have the added advantage of Federal Government input. 1983 devienne loi. Merci. If we take a positive and constructive attitude to this issue and our fellow citizens of other national Mme lrene Lecomte backgrounds, we will gain and he happier together. Ste. Rose du Lac, Manitoba C.P. 156 Respectfully, Jim Chegwin. ROL 1SO (Je suis membre du Comite culture! a Ste-Rose-du-Lac)

SUBMISSION NO. 10 Comme il est impossible pour moi d'assister le 16 RURAL MUNICIPALITY OF SIFTON septembre, j'aimerais tout de meme etre entendue. COUNCIL

The Council of the Rural Municipality of Sifton has SUBMISSION NO. 12 discussed the questions of bilingualism in Manitoba at HELENE MONTSION their recent council meetings and with as many ratepayers of the municipality as was possible. Council found a considerable amount of opposition Monsieur le President, membres du comite. to writing bilingualism for Manitoba into the Constitution. Les Franco-Manitobaihs ont ete prives absolument Questions that have been raised and for which we have de tous leurs droits, qu'on leur avail pourtant garantis. not received answers are: Ce veritable genocide culture! a eu comme resultat la 1. What will the cost to the taxpayers of Manitoba diminution de leur nombre-diminution tellement grave be to implement the changes? que l'aneantissement les menace aujourd'hui. Et voila 2. What form of French is to be used? "Parisian" que maintenant qu'il est question de leur remettre leurs French or "Canadian" French? droits, on leur reproche d'etre trop peu nombreux pour

1157 Tuesday, 4 October, 1983 justifier la remise en vigueur de ces droits. Cette situation school system, that they will become fully bilingual. lt est le comble de !'injustice. C'est une absurdite qui ne would be beneficial if the laws would reinforce this. The devrait pas etre. On impose le supplice aux Franco­ proposed amendment is a way of correcting a situation Manitobains en les fon;:ant a s'agenouiller pour queter that is experienced in our community and province. The leurs droits, comme le mendiant son repas. L'image est amendments will take away nothing from the majority. exageree, diriez-vous? Mais non, au contraire, elle n'est They can only benefit from a culturally richer society in que tres realiste. Elle decrit !'humiliation d'un peuple, which there is room for everyone. humiliation creee par I' intolerance des uns, la haine des I am convinced that for the well-being of our province aut res. Si la justice est not re but, nous devons appuyer the proposed amendments should be accepted. I, for la resolution pour amender !'article 23 de I'Acte du one, support the resolution to amend Article 23 as Manitoba telle qu'elle a ete negociee au mois de mai. negotiated last May, and I hope, Mr. Chairman, members Pour ma part, je l'appuie fortement. C'est la seule of the committee, that you will join me in so doing. position qui soit dictee par la justice. Thank you. Je suis secretaire-tresoriere du Comite culture! de Mrs. Elvier Brunei Ste-Rose-du-Lac.

SUBMISSION NO. 14 SUBMISSION NO. 13 RURAL MUNICIPALITY OF SHOAL LAKE MRS. ELVIER BRUNEL RESOLUTION FORM

RURAL MUNICIPALITY OF SHOAL LAKE Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, Due to prior commitments I am sorry I am not able June 7, 1983 to be present at this public hearing. I have given much thought to this matter and I have some feelings to Moved by Councillor Darr express as a concerned citizen. Seconded by Councillor Dunits I am of French origin, inherited from my father. My mother is Belgium - Flemish. I was brought up in a "That we the Council are in agreement with the present bilingual home environment where three languages: day Provincial Bilingualism and Multi-Culturalism and French, English, Flemish, were heard. Over the years, we suggest that it remain as such." English became the main language spoken when "Carried." together as a family unit. French became secondary due to many reasons, some of them being political, Secretary-Treasurer Thelma Chegwin. social, economical and educational reasons. I know, for instance, in my case our educational system did limit the amount and the quality of French SUBMISSION NO. 15 education. Due to some dedicated group of parents, JIM REID, R.M. of Albert we continued with Fran<;:ais in our rural school and on Good morning, afternoon or evening. Ladies and into high school - Grade 12 - with a decreasing number gentlemen. of pupils. This proved to be the last year that fran<;:ais as a language was taught for some time. I'm here on behalf of the R.M. of Albert. We would During this period of time people had less and less go on record as being against any change in the opportunity to practice the language up to the point proposed French language issue. We do not feel that where one has lost all confidence in speaking the the proposed change should be compulsory to all areas language. Now people are trying to make up this loss of the province. and see the need for change. At that time, I was We are not against any culture being heard or indifferent but now, as a parent and active person in represented, but do not make it compulsory, for community, I see the need to upgrade my French instance, to supply both languages to all people all the language skills and to use them frequently so that I time. may keep my French language. This is where the We think that it would be more practical to pay for proposed amendment to the Manitoba Act can be of any translation on an individual basis to someone who great importance. cannot speak or understand English. Are there any Due to the contact with the elderly and sick, where questions? the use of the mother tongue, which is most often French Thanks everyone for your time. in this case, is an essential need. I have come to know Jim Reid the richness of being bilingual. I also feel the effect of R. M. of Albert the lack of intiative taken by our government on this point. I dislike the animosity created over the proposed amendment of the Manitoba Act. To prolong this matter SUBMISSION NO. 16 any further adds to this animosity. Feelings of ARNOLD M. BIRCH, REEVE, R.M. of resentment, anger, etc. are natural but yet hinder people ROSEDALE to be ojective and free to make a decision on this matter. Mr. Chairman. You can help to avoid this, in a simple and just way if you have the true concern at heart. I am opposed to bilingualism, but I do feel that we I now send my children to a French Immersion school, should not be forced to include services in the French where I know this is the only way for now, within our language where they are not required.

1158 Tuesday, 4 October, 1983

If you delete the term "Central Office," then it must One of our original concerns has now been somewhat mean at any level of government in Manitoba. At the hopefully eliminated by the government's clarification present time, if the need arises, a person is of its intentions with respect to the definite exclusion accommodated if he wishes to be serviced in the French of municipalities and school divisions. Prior to that language. The majority of all people speak English or clarification, there was grave concern on our part as French or both, but a very small minority speak French to the possible mandatory requirements being imposed only. Since our form of government is based on the upon municipalities against their will. Now that we have voice of the majority, then why should such a small a clear statement in the amendments excluding minority of people have more rights than any other ethnic municipalities and school divisions, this problem should group that is part of the population of Manitoba? no longer surface. Due to the high cost of translating municipal by-laws I would like to emphasize the fact that we have into the French language, it is very important that absolutely no objection to the provision of bilingual municipalities and school boards be excluded from services in those areas where there is sufficient demand Section 23, as amended. lt is also important that any and justification. However, herein lies the problem itself secretary-treasurer of a municipality would not be forced - what is "significant demand"? This, we feel, is still a to learn to speak French in order to keep his job. To major shortcoming of the legislation. We already have take it one step further, any individual interested in seen the effect that one or two individuals can have in entering municipal politics may then be required to be precipitating an entire provincial and indeed national able to communicate in both official languages. debate over this issue. Left as it is, the legislation is far Our Federal Government told us that we had to switch too enabling in that it does not define the term to the metric system of measurement because that was "significant" and thus, this leaves it up to the discretion the universal system used. English is the universal of those involved or, inevitably, to the courts. Indeed, language of the world and is used in 80 percent of our already in the hearings in Winnipeg, we saw what could trade. English has been the working language of be construed to be one person's objection defined as Manitoba and should remain the working language. signficant. This stemmed down the fact that one Based on this principle and the economic times, why individual requestea simultaneous translation and burden the Province of Manitoba with the added cost although this was promised if ti1ere was significant of extra services? demand, I understand the request was granted even Sincerely, though only the one individual requested it. Is one person Arnold M. Birch, Reeve, R.M. of Rosedale. "significant demand"? I submit to you that one person could constitute significant demand if that person was powerful enough, loud enough, or persistent enough in badgering local authorities to provide what that SUBMISSION NO. 17 individual wants. This is totally unacceptable to us. The MAYOR KEN BURGESS, CITY OF term "significant" must be defined and it must be BRANDON defined sufficiently so that everyone knows from the Mr. Chairman, honourable members of the committee. outset what the expectations are. Ironically, the Honourable Roland Penner justifies the On behalf of the City of Brandon, I would like to existence of this whole agreement on the basis that he welcome all of you to our fair city and I hope that your was not willing to allow the Supreme Court to make a stay here during the hearings will be a pleasant one. lt decision on the matter which could be detrimental to is our sincere hope that these hearings will prove useful, the province's legal systems. However, in this case the both to you in terms of hearing the opinions of residents government seems to be willing to allow the courts to of Western Manitoba, and to us in terms of ensuring rule on a key issue of the whole affair - that being a that our concerns are given fair consideration in your definition of what constitutes significance. I submit to deliberations. you that if the courts are unworthy of sane judgment Firstly, I wish to indicate how pleased we are that the in the first instance, then they should not be allowed government has consented to hold these hearings to pass judgment in the second instance. I find that Mr. around the province in order that residents could air Penner's argument defeats itself in this issue. their feelings. We were initially very disturbed that a We suggest to you that significance must be defined topic with such far-reaching implications would be in real terms. Without this definition, a few individuals settled with so little public input and we are thus can precipitate horrendously costly and disruptive extremely pleased that this is now being provided for. proceedings, which not only will cause unnecessary The Council of the City of Brandon voted unanimously expenditures, but will contribute substantially towards to present this brief here today and I :hus feel confident cultural divisiveness and ethnic-based selfishness. in saying that the views contained herein are very We are also concerned about definitions within representative of the population in this area. Sctction 23.7(b) and especially in the second section of I would also like the committee to know that Brand on lb), where it indicates that any member of the public City Council has voted to hold a referendum on this in Manitoba has the right to communicate in English issue in the October elections. This position was adopted or French with, and to receive available services in before the enabling legislative amendments were in English or French from any quasi-judicial or place to allow for such referendums to be held. This administrative body of the Government of Manitoba. should be taken as an indication of the importance that Our question relates to what is the finite definition of the Brandon City Council places upon this issue, to the "administrative body of the Government of Manitoba"? extent that it feels that all residents should have an Our questions in this regard go even further. We wonder opportunity to express their opinions. if the courts might consider a municipal government,

1159 Tuesday, 4 October, 1983 which is a creature of the Provincial Government, as the Provincial Government. We do not want these tax an administrative body of the Government of Manitoba. dollars wasted. 1t is our sincere hope that you will take Will this mean that when the Municipal Board holds into account the objections and concerns of residents hearings in an area, such as Brandon, they could be of this area. forced to provide simultaneous translation services, or Thank you. at least bilingual services, even though there is not only not a significant demand, but indeed there may be no SUBMISSION NO. 18 demand. This seems to us to be creating the possibility RURAL MUNICIPALITY OF ARTHUR for substantial totally wasteful expenditures since, undoubtedly, additional staff would have to be involved RESOLUTION FORM and in dealing with quasi-judicial or administrative RURAL MUNICIPALITY OF ARTHUR bodies of this manner, one cannot depend on standard June 23, 1983 translation services - they must be virtually fully qualified legal translations since we are dealing with quasi-judicial WHEREAS the Government of Manitoba are currently decisions. The same would hold true for hearings of negotiating with the Federal Government and the the Clean Environment Commission and other such Franco-Manitoban Society to declare the Province of bodies. We feel that we are opening ourselves up for Manitoba an official bilingual province, and declaring substantial extra expenditures for which we see no real the English and French languages as the two official value or need demonstrated in this area. languages; The legislation indicates that services will be available AND WHEREAS it is our opinion that our forefathers in both languages where desired in the court system. in government, in agreeing that Manitoba should be a We wonder just how far this is intended to go with bilingual province, could not foresee that Western respect to municipal involvement. You have indicated Canada would become the. melting pot for all nations, and that the French population would eventually that municipalities and school divisions will be directly comprise only 5 percent of the total population of this excluded from this legislation. However, if we are province; proceeding with a prosecution or defence in the court AND WHEREAS it is feared that much dissension will system, where will the onus lie for translation of be created among the people of Manitoba by such a municipal by-laws and bilingual prosecution or defence declaration; in order for the case to be held in either official language? AND WHEREAS it is also feared that our leaders in Again, we see the possibility for an individual to government do not foresee, or refuse to see, the far­ precipitate totally wasteful expenditures. Again, I must reaching implications of such a declaration, not only in emphasize that we are not opposed to the provision of the great dissension it will cause, but in the tremendous such services where there is a large segment of the costs that will necessarily be borne by all the taxpayers population and where one would normally expect this in translating the statutes to the French language, in service to be available. However, as presently written, printing all government business in the English and the we feel the legislation is too permissive and a more French language, in changing all highway signs to both finite definition is required. languages; and in many other ways. Also the vast lt is our strong belief that in areas of the province resentment that will be caused by requiring that the where there are large numbers of French-speaking employees of the government and all Crown residents, one could reasonably expect services to be corporations be bilingual, which is surely coming. available in both languages. However, in areas such as NOW THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED THAT we Brandon where that is not the case, it would be request the Government of the Province of Manitoba completely ridiculous to expect the provision of bilingual to consult more with the people of this province, rather services and when one takes into account the economic than just the Franco-Manitoban Society, in considering implications of same, there is absolutely no justification this most important declaration, and to carry out the for it. Our concern relates to ensuring that such will of the majority of the population, as they were elected requirements are not forced upon us and that through to do. lack of definition in the legislation, an individual with none other than disruptive intent can defeat the purpose of the legislation itself through cleverly designed frivolous SUBMISSION NO. 19 interpretations of poorly worded sections of the MADAME MARIETTE BOSC-SAQUET legislation itself. Monsieur le President, membres du comite. I must indicate that there is a considerable amount La Societe franco-manitobaine a su tres bien of skepticism on the part of the populace as to the representer la population franco-manitobaine. Tout au intentions of the government with respect to actually cours des negociations avec le gouvernement, elle ne listening to any of the presentations being made at voulait qu'assurer la survie des siens. Les amendements these hearings. proposes sont un moyen de provoquer la renaissance When we heard the Premier indicate that the des Manitobains d'expression franc;;aise. government's position would not likely be changed at 11 est imperatif que l'on redonne aux Franco­ all subsequent to the hearings, one wonders about the Manitobains leurs droits. J'appuie done la resolution actual intent. Nonetheless, those of us that feel strongly pour amender !'article 23, telle que negociee par la enough about the issue feel duty bound to present our Societe franco-manitobaine et les gouvernements feelings in the hopes that the government will recognize provincial et federal au mois de mai. the logic contained within the brief and make the necessary adjustments. Mariette Bosc-Saquet Laurier As taxpayers, we not only contribute to our local operations but substantially towards the operations of

1160 Tuesday, 4 October, 1983

SUBMISSION NO. 20 beaucoup de gens de langue anglaise veulent que leurs JEAN-LOUIS SAQUET enfants soient bilingues. Pourquoi done refuser I' usage des deux langues officielles au Canada dans les affaires Monsieur le President, membres du comite. de la province si davantage de gens veulent se servir 11 est imperatif que l'on redonne aux Franco­ des deux langues? Manitobains leurs droits. J'appuie done la resolution Si vous permettez, j' aimerais comparer notre situation au Manitoba a une autoroute moderne (nos ecoles pour amender !'article 23, telle que negociee par la preparent des jeunes gens bilingues dans un systeme Societe franco-manitobaine et les gouvernements d'education modele) ou on ne peut acceder qu'a dos provincial et federal au mois de mai. d'iine(on limite l'acces de cette population aux services). Merci. Je ne veux point amoindrir la tache a accomplir, mais Jean Louis Saquet il me semble evident que si on croit toujours en justice, justice doit etre faite aux Franco-Manitobains. J'appuie fortement la resolution pour amender !'article 23 de SUBMISSION NO. 21 I'Acte du Manitoba telle qu'elle a ete negociee au mois RENE SAQUET de mai 1983 entre le gouvernement du Manitoba et la Monsieur le President, membres du comite. Societe franco-manitobaine. Merei. La loi 113 adoptee a l'unanimite par I' Assemblee Jacques Saquet legislative du Manitoba le 16 juillet 1970 a reconnu Wasagaming, Manitoba. legalement, ce qui etait considere comme acquis depuis !'entree du Manitoba dans la confederation: le droit, pour ceux qui le desirent, d'inscrire leurs enfants dans SUBMISSION NO. 23 une ecole publique ou l'enseignement serail dispense RURAL MUNICIPALITY OF WINCHESTER en franc;:aisde la maternelle a la douzieme annee. NORTON F.:. CASSILS, REEVE La simple existence du droit de perpetuer sa culture ne constitue pas la garantie de sa survie; il !aut faire August 5th, 1983. !'effort de perception et d'imagination qui permet Hon. Howard Pawley, d'entrevoir aussi clairement que possible, le chemin qui Premier, conduit des droits aux realisations, des intentions aux Province of Manitoba. realites. L'ecole franc;:aise ne se realisera que si elle peut compter sur tous ces agents: des individus Dear Sir: Re: Bilingualism conscients de leur identite; un foyer familial eveille a la We, the members of the Council of the R.M. of culture canadienne-franc;:aise; des institutions sociales Winchester, are opposed to the government's attitude et economiques favorables a l'epanouissement de cette with respect to the French language in Manitoba and, culture et de cette identite; une communaute dynamique in particular, the amendments to Section 23 of The dont les structures permettent une integration aisee et Manitoba Act. le developpement d'un sentiment d'appartenance. 1. We feel that it is unnecessary for a large majority En terminant, j'aimerais simplement vous dire que of the towns, villages, and municipalities in the province. j'appuie avec conviction la resolution pour amender 2. We think it unfair for all of the ethnic groups who !'article 23 de I'Acte du Manitoba, telle qu'elle a ete have chosen to forgo their native tongue and use English negociee au mois de mai entre le gouvernement du as their official language. Manitoba et la Societe franco-manitobaine. 3. This will be a cumbersome and costly nuisance Merci. imposed upon a large section of the province's Rene Saquet population that is really opposed to it. Laurier 4. We suggest that a provincial referendum on the bilingual issue be held in Manitoba, before any amendments are made to Section 23 of The Manitoba SUBMISSION NO. 22 Act. JACQUES SAQUET Yours truly, Monsieur le President, membres du comite. Norton E. Cassils, Reeve, R.M. of Winchester Quand on passe en revue les faits historiques qu'ont dO subir les gens de langue franc;:aise au Manitoba depuis I' adhesion de cette province a la confederation SUBMISSION NO. 24 canadienne, on doit reconnaitre le fait que tous les droits de langue avaient ete confisques aux Franco­ REGARDING THE BILINGUALISM Manitobains. 11 a fallu quatre-vingts ans pour qu'un QUESTION IN MANITOBA gouvernement manitobain reussisse a re-introduire le by HARRY F. ROBINSON franc;:aiseo m me langue egale a I'anglais dans les ecoles 611-20 Valhalla Drive, Winnipeg du Manitoba. Treize ans plus tard, un autre gouvernement qui se dit du peuple et pour le peuple September, 1983 veut rendre au Manitoba franc;:aisses droits linguistiques Members of the committee: arraches illegalement en 1890. Comme le temoigne la grande popularite des ecoles Due to medical problems, I am unable to attend the d'immersion en milieu urbain, il semblerait que meeting to present the attached brief in person.

1161 Tuesday, 4 October, 1983

However, I trust you will accord it the same attention (4) LACK OF CONSIDERATION OF THE FRENCH and consideration as though it had been delivered CULTURE FOR OTHERS: verbally. At no time have the French come out in support of While it is right to remember our past, we must also the English. No matter how stringent the Quebec laws remember that the laws that were enacted then were are, they have NEVER supported English. lt is evident static and were a magnanimous gesture on the part of that French only is what they would like to see all across the government to enable everyone to live in harmony. Canada. But they had no idea of what the transition of this (5) The popularity of the French Immersion classes province would be. Therefore we cannot let the past is not due to the fact that the people want to learn dictate our present and our future. To rescue this French, but the true fact is they want their children to province from the bitter feeling and divisions that are have equal opportunity to qualify for Federal prsent now, that will NOT be forgotten, and in fact will Government positions. But as you know, the French only get much worse, we must enact the following and that is being taught here can not be understood in for these reasons: Quebec. Imagine the parents' dismay and anger if they (1) ALL PEOPLE IN THIS PROVINCE MUST BE EQUAL: will not qualify under Federal Government questioning. (6) We Manitobans want all races in this province to be THE EFFECT ON ALL OTHER ETHNIC GROUPS: equal. The evolution of Manitoba has not been English­ it is impossible to understand how any other ethnic French, but a much richer multiculturism concept. group can support bilingualism. lt is either FEAR OR lt is just as wrong for a minority to impose laws on FAVOUR - FEAR for the reduction of their rights, which the majority, for this borders on dictatorship. as it is cannot be done. The other ethnic groups seem to believe for a majority to enforce laws on minorities that are not that by supporting bilingualism they are protecting their just to all. it is the first responsibility, no, DUTY of rights under the Constitution and they will reap some government to ensure that ALL people have equal rights. kind of benefit in the future. But the truth is their rights If they fail in their duty, public pressure must be brought are not only protected but GUARANTEED under the to bear, as it is in this instance, to prevent the Constitution which cannot and will not be changed. government from giving any single minority an FAVOUR - the promise or expectation of future advantage over the others. THIS IS JUSTICE! benefits. But that will depend on what government is (2) THE COST TO THE PROVINCE: in power - and governments tend to forget and, above The cost to this province of bilingualism will be all, it will depend on the amount of money available. exorbitant. With hospitals, nursing homes, social With all the money that would be spent on bilingualism, services, etc., cutting costs, and Mr. Desjardins, so they will lose all hope of help in the future. So instead of the French being the preferred ethnic desperate for money, he is looking to the lotteries for group - ALL NATIONALITIES MUST BE EQUAL - WE help to pay costs, with thousands of people out of work, DO NOT WANT ANY SECOND CLASS CITIZENS IN it is an absolute heartless disgrace that this can even MANITOBA! be considered. The argument that the Federal Government is donating money to ease this cost of SOLUTIONS AND CONCLUSION: translation is ridiculous. Just how gullible do they think The first reaction to the solution of this problem will we are! be disbelief, but don't dismiss it offhand. After the first WE ARE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, so one way reaction, when you cooly and calmly consider it, then or another, we will pay for it. Furthermore, if this province you MUST agree it is the only permanent and fair is declared bilingual, who knows what the Federal solution - WE MUST DELETE THE FRENCH FACTOR Government will enforce at OUR expense. COMPLETELY FROM OUR CONSTITUTION, thereby With all due respect to this committee, even this removing once and for all the only really divisive problem expenditure would be unnecessary if the government in our province. Otherwise, there will be a continuing followed their own slogan "We Listen." But they are and growing resentment on both sides. I realize this is NOT listening. We also resent the importing of people a difficult solution, but all solutions are going to be from outside this province in an attempt to influence difficult and expensive, whereas this would solve the the thinking and feelings of Manitoba, as though we problem once and for all. Surely Manitoba is valued did not have the intelligence to make up our own mind enough in this country to be able to get five signatures - and how much did THIS cost? - which confirms the and 50 percent of the population, if necessasry. Most fact this government will go to any lengths to try to important, this is not depriving the French of any right, justify an unjustifiable position and at the very least but making them EQUAL with other nationalities in this gives the impression that these hearings are being paced province. with pro-bicultural people too. Finally, the French people of this province have the But above all, I hope members of this panel and greatest opportunity to contribute to the unity and well­ supporters of bilingualism saw the TV Program on being of not only this province, but of this country. Sunday, September 4th, entitled "Who Is In Charge?" Instead of resentment, would have the admiration and and saw the utter hopelessness, the despair, the anger respect of every other nationality, not only in this and violence that is just below the surface on the feelings province, but this country, if they would come forward of the unemployed. This is one of the greatest arguments and support this proposal. As has been proved, you against wasting so much money on bilingualism. In fact, can legislate laws, but you can't legislate feelings. it is possible this could be the catalyst that sets off The admiration engendered by this act would inspire violence in this province. every other nationality in this province to VOLUNTARILY (3) THE ADVOCACY OF BILINGUALISM: (and that is the key word) co-operate in not only To the detriment of every other minority in this maintaining the French culture, but every other culture province shows a complete lack of morality. in this wonderful province of ours.

1162 Tuesday, 4 October, 1983

Therefore, at the very least, a referendum should be manitobaine, le gouvernement federal et le held, but preferably an election with this as one of the gouvernement provincial. Nous, les aines, comptons questions. The politicians would then know not only plusieurs membres qui ont vecu 1916 et !'injustice WHAT their constituents want, but would have a commise a cette epoque par le gouvernement du temps. mandate to follow their wishes, even to changing the Nous avons tous beaucoup soufferts d'avoir eu a etudier Constitution. notre langue a la cachette conscients que nous commettions une infraction a la loi. Nous comptons parmi notre organisme quantite d'educateurs qui eux aussi ont vecu intensement et SUBMISSION NO. 25 dans un etat de conscience troublee ces annees RAPID CITY TOWN COUNCIL difficiles. C'est avec douleur qu'ils ont vu se deteriorer graduellement, irrevocablement la qualite du franc;:ais September 7th, 1983 de notre population. Aucun d'eux n'oubliera la terreur Ms. Carmen DePape, que pouvait soulever les visites inattendues des Clerk of the Legislature Office "inspecteurs d'ecoles". Nos membres ont tous travaille Room 251, Legislative Building et appuye les vaillants efforts de !'Association Winnipeg, Manitoba d'education dans leur lutte pour maintenir notre langue R3C ova et notre culture. Quantite de nous avons fait d'enormes sacrifices pour permettre a nos enfants une education franc;:aise et Brief on the proposed amendment to the religieuse convenable en les plac;:ant a 12 ou 13 ans Constitution dans des pensionnats et ecoles privees si souvent bien to provide French services. loin de nous. Combien de parents ont dO se priver de l'appui que pouvait fournir un jeune garcon a travailler The Council of the Town of Rapid City, Manitoba, is la terre et aider aux travaux de la ferme! Pour ne pas totally opposed to the intention of the Pawley parler de la douleur de perdre, dans un sens, un fils si Government to provide French and to entrench same jeune. Combien de parents se sont saigner a blanc afin in the Constitution. Consider the following points: de payer la pension d'un, deux parfois jusqu'a six et 1. Much has been said that this is done to correct an huit garcons afin de leur assurer une education franc;:aise injustice done 100 years ago. This is 1983 not 1883, convenable parce que le systeme publique, que nous and a government should be passing laws to deal devions neanmoins payer, ne nous l'offrait pas! Combien with issues now, not 100 years ago. de bons religieux et religieuses ont travaille pendant 2. Rights, which should only be granted to a majority, des annees pour aucun salaire quelconque mais par should never be granted to a minority. amour de la langue et de la race! 3. Rights granted to one minority (which is only 5 N'est-il pas temps que justice se fasse? La revocation percent of Manitoba's population) should be granted de !'article 23 de I'Acte du Manitoba a fait beaucoup in the same spirit to all minorities - naturally resulting de tort au fait franc;:ais au Manitoba. Sans nos ecoles, in chaos, thus it is a bad move. sans droit legal a notre langue nous avons perdu bien 4. Granting concessions to one minority can in no way du monde. D'un cote !'assimilation a fait ses ravages. D'un autre cote plusieurs de nos grands talents ont dO be helpful to other minorities who have to depend aller au Quebec afin de parfaire leurs etudes en franc;:ais on own resources. et plusieurs n'en sont jamais revenus. Si les 5. The cost of translation and of providing services to francophones au Manitoba avaient pu evolue en citoyen a minority (5 percent of the population), especially a part entiere comme l'avait souhaite en 1870 le Pere in this age of restraint and unemployment is shocking du Manitoba aurions-nous vu partir ces grands talents and nonsense in every sense. franco-manitobains comme Gabrielle Roy, Henri 6. For such an important issue (one which could divide Bergeron, Daniel Lavoie, etc. . .. ? Manitoba), the government should, by referendum Les francophones du Manitoba ont paye cher or election, let the people of Manitoba decide on l'annulation illegale de !'article 23. Et vous maintenant the proposed amendment to allow French. au gouvernement possedez le pouvoir de nous remettre certains de ces droits auxquels nous avions toujours Rapid City Council droit mais qui nous ont ete nies si longtemps! Vous M.J. Stefaniuk, Mayor laisserez-vous influencer et apeurer par un petit groupe Signed: R.B. Grist de bigots et racistes qui veulent l'aneantissement total Secretary-Treasurer et complet de notre race? L're de 1890, 1896 et 1916 n'est-elle pas revolu? Allez-vous commettre les memes injustices que vos ancetres? SUBMISSION NO. 26 Sachez alors que la Federation des aines franco­ MADAME MARIE-JOSEPHE FISETTE manitobains et ses 17 clubs affilies appuie inconditionnellement la position de la SFM et les Monsieur le President, membres du comite. amendements proposes a !'article 23. Merci. La Federation des Aines franco-manitobains represente 17 clubs d'aines a !ravers la province. C'est Marie-Josephe Fisette l'organisme officiel representant les interets des aines Secretaire francophones au Manitoba. Federation des aines franco-manitobains 200, av. de la Cathedrale Nous n'avons pas besoin de vous dire que nous avons Saint-Boniface, Manitoba. suivi avec un vif interet toutes les deliberations qui ont eut lieu depuis deja deux ans entre la Societe franco-

1163 Tuesday, 4 October, 1983

SUBMISSION NO. 27 that we can put the scarce resources that we possess PABLO JAJALLA into better and viable use. The actual cost of the French amendment will definitely grow in gargantuan Dear Sir: proportions as time marches by. Bureaucratic nightmares tend to increase, not decrease. The French language issue has bedeviled Manitoba I don't need French in my driver's licence, in my car for a long time now. Lately, it occupies again the forefront insurance certificate, in my parking violation tickets, of public consciousness because of the tripartite and in my other numerous public documents. English agreement between the Federal Government, the will do. I don't need French in order to communicate Provincial Government and the Franco-Manitoba in Manitoba. I don't understand it. lt is a very expensive Society. Proponents and opponents of Frenchification proposition in time of restraint. If it is a question of have put forth arguments and counter-arguments in justice, then justice demands that I don't have to support support of their sides and cause. it directly or indirectly through my tax dollars. The Manitoba 23, a so-called grassroots coalition of I need better job opportunities for Manitobans, safer community associations and concerned citizens, puts workplaces, amply funded educational system attuned up ads in the papers urging citizens to back up the to the present needs, adequate health care facilities, resolution because it is "consistent with historical and healthful recreational atmosphere, cleaner envirnment, cultural realities of our society." I am not sure about security and protection from criminal elements, lower the exact meaning and complications of the terms, but taxes and prices of goods and services and a just and I am sure they are no longer realities today in our society. caring government and society for all, not only for the There used to be more or less equal solitudes in Franco-Manitoban Society. Manitoba before 1890 but the French moved away to Sincerely yours, Pablo Jajalla. seek greener pastures elsewhere and what eventually dominated was the English solitude which grew overwhelmingly in number and political power as days SUBMISSION NO. 28 went by. That majority decided in a political manner MANITOBA MUNICIPAL ADMINISTRATORS that English was the "in" thing and behaved accordingly ASSOCIATION by making English as the sole language of the province. The Manitoba Municipal Administrators Association One of the issues that seemed to be conveniently appreciates the opportunity to make known to the forgotten by those who claimed history as a valid and committee the concerns of our association as seen by reliable argument is that the population components of our Executive. Manitoba have changed dramatically in the last few Since Manitoba became a province in 1870, years. These demographic changes and altered states provisions, as we see them, were made in Section 23 should be taken into account in this debate. Newcomers which would affect French and English-speaking persons in the province shuld be asked for their inputs because equally. They could be heard in the courts and provincial they would partly foot the bill in this "historical" but legislation would be in both languages. This would not now inutile exercise. To ask only the established and create any undue hardship on either group. the vociferous few who proclaimed themselves as Our Association wishes to go on record as supporting spokespersons of organizations and ethnocultural Section 23 of The Manitoba Act as it now exists. We groups for their inputs would be patently counter­ feel that is Section 23 is amended that it would harm productive, irrelevant and unfair. That seems to be the municipal administration in the province by placing the ability to communicate in French and English as a criteria trend in the language hearings being conducted by the for the office, rather than the ability to properly government. administer a municipal corporation, thus watering down To me, the overriding consideration in the French the services offered by the municipal personnel. proposal is not history but politics and economics. We further have concern regarding the employment History does not tie the people in its apron strings. of those persons now holding a position as Politics and economics do. The question to ask is: Does administrator, or staff members, who may not Mr. John Q. Public of Manitoba favour further communicate in the French language, and also for the Frenchification? If the present Government of Manitoba French administrator who may speak both languages believe that the answer is yes, they should call an election but may not be qualified to translate in both languages; in this burning issue as proposed already by many that these positions not be jeopardized in any changes Manitobans. The Parti Quebecois did the same thing contemplated to Section 23 of The Manitoba Act. when they worked for French unilingualism in Quebec. Our association respectfully suggests that funding This way we can decide this question once and for all would be better spent on concentrating on English in an appropriate and valid political arena. Let the silent education programs and let evolution take place rather majority rule, not the noisy minority supported by than trying to legislate it. powerful politicians and old-fashioned judges. We realize that this is a sensitive issue which when The economic reality is very relevant too, since all dealt with will affect generations of Manitobans to come. taxpayers would be forced to cough up for this expensive A culture will never survive, if it must be legislated, undertaking whose merit and worth are dubious and Respectfully submitted by: Manitoba Municipal devious. Would the opportunity cost of satisfying a Administrators Association, Gerald A. May, President. handful of Francophones in Manitoba who speak and write and understand English better than many of us newcomers justify this scheme at this time of dire SUBMISSION NO. 29 economic straits? There are myriads of social, UNITED GERMAN SCHOOL OF NORTH recreational, educational, health and jop creation areas KILDONAN

1164 Tuesday, 4 October, 1983

to associate with one another and were interested in Mr. Anstett and Members of the Hearing Committee: learning English. The one exception was the French. I thank you for this opportunity to express my views They wanted no part of any of us. One of my mining on the proposed amendments to Article 23 on behalf partners was a young French lad who spoke English, of the United German School of North Kildonan. but as soon as he saw one or two of his own extraction, The reinstatement of the French language rights in he didn't know I even existed. This lad and I were both Manitoba should be a concern to all Manitobans and from Manitoba. How can anyone justify this behaviour particularly the ethnic minorities. Some of our or attitude from a people who claim they were here first constituents can still remember when the ethnic and who should be welcoming everyone in their midst? language rights were drastically curtailed in 1916, and Friends travelling through Quebec tell me that the I personally still vividly remember the insults I received young people there claim that only they are the real when as a new immigrant in 1957, I was heard to speak Canadians. What does that make us? My folks came German in public places. This display of intolerance to Canada some 80 years ago. Is a real Canadian was very unlike the vision I had held of Canada as one somebody like the Indians or Eskimos who were here of the world's most tolerant countries. The situation has first, or is it somebody who has contributed the most improved greatly over the last several decades, but to improve our standard of living or spent his lifetime intolerance towards ethnic minorities does persist and convincing all transplanted new Canadians to work and it should concern us. live in peace and harmony? I could easily name more One could conceivably argue that the French language than one person that you would consider a great rights were abrogated a long time ago in a less Canadian. enlightened age than ours, and one could attribute the Instead, I will mention one man that you never heard infringements of ancestral language rights in 1916 to about, but who I knew best, because he was my father. war hysteria, but what argument could we use to justify He worked hard all this life, never collected Welfare or our unwillingness to correct an old injustice today? That, even unemployment insurance. He was not ashamed I think, is the central issue; admit that the constitutional to be seen with people less fortunate than himself. He French rights had been wrongfully and illegally taken asked for no special favours from the government or away and that this wrong should finally be corrected. from anyone else. Years, ago, the Lutheran Church at A referendum is not the appropriate vehicle to Moosehorn had services in two languages - one week establish or guarantee minority rights. More than in English, the next in German. We experienced financial anything else, I believe a referendum would bring out problems until we realized how much smaller the church age-old fears and prejudices and be very divisive in the offering was when there was service in German. lt was community. In a democracy like Canada, one would decided to drop the German service completely. You hope that our elected officials would have the wisdom can bet that this caused much bitterness in the and courage to provide leadership on moral issues such community, but Dad and other staunch Germans finally as this, and not wait for universal enlightenment. it may lik::cepted it as a necessary move. Our German never come. The time to act is now. community could do what the French apparently can't Aside from the moral issue of injustice against a That takes character. Ladies and gentlemen, I submit minority having gone uncorrected for nearly a century, to you that, in my humble opinion, people like my father many of the ethnic community are concerned about the are the real Canadians! wider implications. If the constitutional rights of the Let's be honest and try to face the facts. Having two French could be so easily abrogated, how much more official languages in this country is as necessary to you vulnerable must be the other ethnic minorities who do and I as thEJ pryamids in Egypt or the leaning 1ower of not have these guarantees? What has happened to one Pisa. What purpose would two languages serve? Our can happen to others. We cannot let injustice be done ties are with the USA, who is our partner on this continent to any. and who has the common sense to work and play in lt is exciting to be part of the Canadian dynamism one common language - i.e. English, which through no and many consider it a privilege. Canada has forsaken fault of ours or any influence or prompting by us has the concept of a melting pot of nations and instead had evolved into an international language. I can accept opted for the concept of a cultural mosaic. Let us now that. Why can't you? Why can't the French? Is it my show that we believe in this in Manitoba as well, and fault that the French in Quebec choose to live for work towards greater linguistic and cultural tolerance. themselves in one pocket of this great nation? What Respectfully submitted on behalf of the United German can they expect if they don't want to mingle or "rub" School of North Kildonan, Arno H. Jansen. shoulders with the rest of the world like we have to do? I should add that we are so much the richer by doing this. If their language is so important, it should be able SUBMISSION NO. 30 to survive on its own and not be forced on an unwilling CLARENCE KIESMAN bystander. You can't force this on the poeple any more than I can force you to like or dislike me. You don't Mr. Chairman, members of the board, honourable hear any other minority crying for special rights or special guests, ladies and gentlemen: recognition except possibly the Indians who seem to My presentations may be a bit lengthy and so I crave be getting more militant all the time. Who are they your indulgence. Back in the '50's when I worked at an learning it from? Ontario gold mine, I had an excellent opportunity to Some of you may say that a nation is judged by how meet and work with people from many parts of Canada it treats its minorities. If I saw any person discriminated and immigrants from Europe. I found that most against because of his race or colour or religion or Canadians and most of the immigrants were anxious political views, I would fight tooth and nail on his behalf.

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So would you and nobody would blame you. If the So would somebody kindly explain to me and to all unemployed, the sick, the crippled, the deaf and dumb, the people hampered by lack of government funding the homeless, or the new immigrants were not getting just how there can be money for translating government a fair deal, I would take up my pen and blast the documents to satisfy 6 r.arcent of Manitoba's perpetrators publicly for their wrongdoings. population? But I have no sympathy, no money and no time for In conclusion, I believe that laws must be made and &nyone who asks me to save his language by making amended to suit the people affected and to comply with it official in Canada, thereby handcuffing future the changing trends. If a law is creating animosity or generations to have their lifestyle disrupted or altered disrupting or altering your lifestyle, then change the law. by our incompetence and tunnel-vision thinking. A simple but effective solution for the good of the nation. Now what about the law? The BNA Act has been Let the people of Manitoba decide this by way of a twisted and manipulated to give a new meaning to referendum! Respectfully submitted, Clarence Kiesman. bilingualism that never existed when it was first drawn up. lt was okay because the Federal Government did it. This may shock you, but I can honestly tell you that SUBMISSION NO. 31 I don't recognize the Federal Government because it does not represent Western Canada. We have no IRISH CANADIAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE national party, because the Liberals represent the East Presentation to Legislative Committee on Amendment and the Conservatives the West. to Manitoba Act re: French Services and language The law was changed by an eastern party to favour rights, July 22nd, 1983 the east. Shall eight out of 10 provinces have to suffer because of such blundering ignorance by a Prime Greetings: A Chara: Minister who is supposed to represent all of Canada? The question of the amendment to The Manitoba Act Our MP's and MLA's should have been screaming at the top of their lungs at such injustice inflicted on in respect to French Language Services is for us a very an unsuspecting public. Not one politician, to my practical and eminently sensible proposal. The historic knowledge, that the guts to say, wait a minute. If you presence of Irish men and women at Red River last want to change the law, let's cut out French all together. century and our close identification with the French and That's the thanks we get for voting for people we felt Metis communities here throughout several generations we could trust to speak on our behalf. Why should I since that time makes it inevitable that we would support have to leave my farm where the work is piled up to the strengthening of French language rights in Manitoba. my ears, to come to Dauphin to defend the rights of As William O'Donoghue, a colleague of Louis Aiel's in Manitoba as a province - a province just as good or 1869 is reputed to have commented, "What has begun important as Quebec or any other? I am here, because here this day in this struggle for freedom will cast a I feel that nobody else will say what has to be said. brilliant light into the future for generations to come." Let's talk about finances. Some of you here think And so it has. that all you have to do is translate 400 statutes. Nobody We find it very difficult to tolerate the incredible and who followed the turn of events since 1965 can possibly divisive backlash from a vocal minority in this province be that naive. These people aren't going to rest until who would turn the clock back to 1890. Messrs. Sterling all 4,400 statutes are translated. They have federal (i.e. Lyon and the Tory Party - you are dead wrong! We feel public) money backing them. Your money and my inflamatory statements only serve to feed the incredible money. Did you forget that Trudeau sent two special lunatic fringe which seems to be always with us, ready lawyers from Quebec to supervise the bilingual court at all times to exploit any situation to show discord case over a parking ticket here in Manitoba? How small amongst all our peoples. I would quote from the Brandon can some people get? Sun in reporting an editorial from the Boissevain Somebody will say, we can't afford not to. I heard Recorder of June 25, 1983: this argument before. The fact is that the same people "There is little doubt that the reason behind the are always paying the taxes - new costs mean more latest walkout is to fuel the anti-Francophone taxes - it's like the straw that broke the camel's back. feelings that are harboured by many Anglophone Few people working means fewer people sharing a Manitobans. The proposed bilingualist greater tax burden. What are they working for? Or for amendment is simply to follow-up of a Supreme whom? I might want a $15,000 swather but I will be Court decision some four years ago that stated lucky if I can afford to buy one for $1,000.00. that the province had acted improperly when it All people in government, including myself as Reeve took away French language rights in 1890. As a of the LGD of Grahamdale, have to be able to justify the expenditure of public funds. I would resign if I saw result, the province proposed to translate the The Municipal Act translated into French or any other 100-year backlog of laws and regulations into language. Let me give you an example of government French over the next 10 years. This would seem setting priorities. Our council has been waiting since to be a simple and harmless solution to the last September for drainage profiles from the Water problem." Resources Branch. I am told that they are understaffed We agree and call upon the government to ensure because the government has no money to hire more that there must be no "dilution" of the basic principle engineers. If we don't get our profiles, we can't do any of fair play involved with this amendment. The agreement drainage and the people who desperately need it are between all parties, including the Societe Franco­ the losers. In fact, everybody loses in the long run. How Manitobaine must be upheld in its entirety. can our council effectively serve our ratepayers with We do share, of course, the concerns of Mr. Gary that kind of co-operation from the government? Doer of the Manitoba Government Employees

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Association in respect to job security. We believe, Province of Quebec. Nowhere else would it be however, that there should be no great difficulty in recognized as an official language except in the House arriving at an equitable accommodation on this question of Commons, the Legislature of Quebec and certain with the union whilst upholding the basic principle of courts of law where considered necessary. The act was the agreement and amendment to The Manitoba Act. written into the Constitution for the purpose of In conclusion, we strongly maintain the view that the guaranteeing the French language equality with the rights of the Franco-Manitobans must be recognized English language in the Province of Quebec. not only out of historic causes but also the rights of all THE MYTH THAT CONFEDERATION WAS MEANT minorities would be strengthened as well by this historic TO CREATE AN EQUAL PARTNERSHIP BETWEEN THE and very democratic proposal by Premier Pawley's TWO FOUNDING PEOPLES IN THE DOMINION OF Government. CANADA IS WHAT STARTED THE TROUBLE! Therefore, we urge "full speed ahead" with the In the Province of Manitoba, the English outside of amendment to The Manitoba Act. Thank you. Mise Le the Indians were the first to arrive in 1670. The first Meas. identifable Frenchman to arrive was La Verendrye in Gerry McKinney, President, Irish Canadian National 1725, and he did not stay. The country has been Committee; Dermot Rooney, Vice-President, Cultural acknowledged as belonging to the British Hudson Bay Affairs Director; Tammy McKinney, Director, Youth Co. From 1670 until it was sold to Canada, the French Activities; Joy Smith-McKinney, Secretary-Treasurer; had never owned any part of it. Jell Dunn, Research Director. lt was not until the three wise men from the east (Trudeau, Marchand and Pelletier) entered the Liberal Party that we have been divided into Francophones and SUBMISSION NO. 32 Anglophones. lt was Trudeau that passed the bilingual ELSIE JA WOLIK legislation, changed the Constitution and solidified French power in Canada. Since Mr. Trudeau came to One of the root causes of separation in Quebec and power, the Federal Government has been sending other Francophone areas is discrepancy in French­ agitators paid by the Secretary of State's department Canadian history. French power exposes many myths, into every Canadian community outside of Quebec in one of them being that Canada is "two nations" or "two which there are any French-Canadians at all, regardless founding peoples" and that they were here first is not of how few. The purpose is to have the French-Canadian true. The Indians, the British and the Norse were here element demand that every service which is provided long before them. The Norsemen came from Greenland by the provincial country, the municipal governments to northern Newfoundland about the year 1002. They be provided in the French language. They are told to were succeeded around 1398 by a convoy of Scottish demand that all policemen, bus drivers, telephone colonists to Nova Scotia. Next in 1497, English operators, hospital workers, Provincial and Municipal merchants sent a Venetian navigator named John Government workers be French-speaking. They are Cabotto (also known as Coto or Zuam Talbot) on two organized into pressure groups to demand that stores, round trips across the Atlantic. He discovered for Britain banks and business owners hire only French-speaking land from the coast of Labrador south to Chesapeake clerks, personnel managers. Bay, raising England's flag in proof. British subjects The primary and sole objective since Mr. Trudeau began settling in Newfoundland as early as 1527. came to power has been to convert Canada to a French­ The 80 years of intermittent strife between the two speaking nation. That objective will remain until every nations terminated temporarily with the 1713 Treaty of city, town and village in Canada has become French­ Utrecht. Under its terms, the Gulf of St. Lawrence and speaking and French-controlled. the Hudson Bay areas were declared to be British The French conflict in Quebec and Canada is created territory. French rule lasted from 1633 until the fall of by the same movement that: Fort Louisburg in Nova Scotia to the British in 1758, (1) has built the Berlin wall. Quebec in 1759 and Montreal in 1760. (2) that has caused the wars in Ireland, Israel, Iran, lt was not until 1534 that Jaques Cartier sailed into Vietnam and Labanon. the Gulf of the St. Lawrence, already discovered and (3) by the same element that has caused the conflicts claimed for England by Cabot in 1497. Cartier failed to in Central America, Angola, Mozambique, Zimbabwe, establish a French colony upon his arrival. lt was not the Phillipines and other parts of Africa. (4) that has caused the savagery in Cambodia, until 1608 that the French under Champlain formed a Lebanon, Russia, Bulgaria, etc., etc. small settlement until 1629 which was captured by an (5) and by the same movement that have bulldozed English seaman. In 1633, Champlain worked out an their tanks into Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia and agreement whereby France was to pay England 400,000 Afghanistan. crowns. Under this proposal, Champlain and his charges Elsie Jawolik. were reinstated in the settlement. The whole purpose of dividing the province of Canada (Upper and Lower) into the Provinces of Ontario and SUBMISSION NO. 33 Quebec was to give French-Canadians back what the LGD OF FISHER COUNCIL British had taken in 1759. The understanding was that they would govern that province for themselves under WHEREAS an attempt is being made by the Manitoba British law, and share equal rights with the English there. Government to entrench French Language Services in The BNA in 1867 made Canada English-speaking from the Canadian Constitution; coast to coast. Section 133 of the act stipulated that AND WHEREAS the Council of the Local Government French would become the second language in the District of Fisher strongly feel that French rights in the

1167 Tuesday, 4 October, 1983

Constitution, as it relates to Manitoba, is both recognize the importance of their contributions. The unncessary and costly, especially in tough economic central role of the English language in our present day times; society, as well as the institutions of parliamentary THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the Council of government and court system, together with many of the Local Government District of Fisher strongly oppose our social conventions, attest to the recognition of that the proposed changes of The Manitoba Act - Section we accord the English. 23, which would make Manitoba a bilingual province. The French also are important in the role they have Fred Packulak, Reeve. played, and in the contribution they have made to both Manitoba and Canada. This must be recognized. A just recognition is the one that is provided for in the proposed SUBMISSION NO. 34 amendments to Article 23 of The Manitoba Act. This MR. WILLIE DUMONT, VICE PRESIDENT is an amendment that seeks to accommodate an important minority of Manitoba, not impose the French MANITOBA METIS FEDERATION, language unwillingly onto the public. Having an INTERLAKE REGION important role in the establishment of Manitoba and Mr. Chairman, members of the committee: being a minority, it is right and appropriate that they should have their language rights protected in as strong I am presenting this on behalf of Mr. Willie Dumont, a mechanism as possible. Vice President of the Manitoba Metis Federation, In closing, I ask you to approach this matter with the lnterlake Region. humanity and wisdom of Louis Riel and the "council of I speak to you today as a Metis and on behalf of the forty"; ensure that Manitoba today makes a place for Manitoba Metis Federation. That the Province of the French and their language and culture that was Manitoba exists as a province within Canada is due to provided for in 1870. the actions of Riel and his followers in 1870. Although at that time French was the language of the majority of the people living in the colony of Assiniboia, the SUBMISSION NO. 35 governing "convention of forty" consisted of equal FRED & PHYLLIS RONGE representation of French-speaking and English­ We would like to submit this brief to the Standing speaking delegates. lt is in the spirit of justice and Committee on the proposed amendments to The compassion for Riel that I ask you to vote for the Manitoba Act of 1870. amendments to Article 23 of The Manitoba Act. I and Far too long has the bilingual issue caused friction the MMF fully endorse the resolution, Article 23, as among Canadians. Are we as Canadians really unable negotiated last May. to accept changes, or are we unaware of the facts that Inasmuch that French is the founding language of those changes are here already? In this brief, we will both Manitoba and Canada, it has a special place that purposely not touch on any legal issues as they would is above and beyond the numbers of people actually be void anyway, because bilingualism has been speaking it. Manitoba is culturally very diverse. Each entrenched since 1870 in The Manitoba Act. culture has knowledge and practices which can enrich Our own family is made up of two different ethnic and enhance our society as a whole. heritages, Ukrainian and German. Not that many years For many years, it was told that all cultures should ago, we, ourselves, felt the sting of racism by simply fit in and adapt to the dominant culture. There are being referred to as a D.P. and other racial slurs. Some advantages to such an approach, but there are severe jobs were simply not available because of our heritage. limits. English will continue to be the dominant language Over time, these have been slowly changed in our of business and day-to-day interactions. Indeed to Canadian society and today we do no longer hang our succeed in Canadian society, it is vital that one must heads in shame because of our ethnic background. We be fluent in English. I, for one, have no quarrel with this. are no longer ashamed to speak our language in public. However, society must recognize the various groups To some degree, Act 23 of The Manitoba Act in the that comprise it and not simply try to force them to amended form will see the rights of all € :hnic groups "blend in." I, as a Metis person, know all too well the in this province guaranteed for eternity. We are neither limits of the assimilation model. I am a Canadian, but patriots nor bigots, simply Canadians dedicated to I am also a Metis. There is no point in trying to change ensure that Canada is a country in which all Canadians me. lt cannot be done. If society is to be just, it must feel welcomed and secure. If we have to give a little in recognize culture, race and language, not only an order to ensure this, so be it. Let us get on with our individual. This is true, not only for Metis but for all lives as true Candians and Manitobans, not as an ethnic groups with a different ethnic or national background. group that has been depressed for too long. We, Manitoba will be a stronger, richer and more tolerant therefore, would like to urge you to make the society to the degree that it helps various national and amendments, entrench them for eternity, and carry on ethnic groups preserve their pasts, rather than trying in a richer tradition. to submerge them. I know what it is like to be shunned and shamed for no other reason than who I am. That is wrong. SUBMISSION NO. 36 Certain nationalities are given recognition for the S.M. TAYLOR special contributions they have made to Manitoba and Sir or Madame: Canada. The English and French are often referred to as the "founding societies" while I as an aboriginal In reference as to what is happening now in Manitoba person have some difficulty with this concept, but do about the French and English controvery, I would like

1168 Tuesday, 4 October, 1983 to add that French is a definite attribute in our province. feature. And we owe it all to the foresight and I'm sure, no positive, my children (6) are backing me determination of our great-grandparents! up. I made sure as I was bringing them up that they I have always been taught to respect my elders. I knew that Canada as a whole has always been a two hope I shall always do that. I certainly want to respect language country, French and English or vice-versa. I our great-grandparents for the wisdom they had in sincerely hope and believe it continues to be so. We in determining that we will be a province with two official Canada have that advantage over other countries. languages. And that is why I was so upset when I Sincerely, S.M. Taylor, Nancy, Kathleen, Victor, Amy, discovered that legislators of this province in 1890 Faye, Celeste and my granddaughter, Trista Hamilton. tampered with their wishes and tried to make this a province with only one official language. That will be, I am sure, the greatest single embarrassment that we SUBMISSION NO. 37 as Manitobans will ever have to live down! THERESA & ALEX NOVAK I am proud of our government today for making the effort to correct - at least in part - the wrong that has The Chairman and Members of the Manitoba Legislative been done. And when they succeed, we will be back Committee on Bilingualism: into a situation where none of our French friends will need to feel that they are getting special treatment if We strongly support the action taken by our present they wish to communicate and be served in the language government in attempting to resolve the age-old of their choice. And we will never need to feel that we question on bilingualism in our province through the are sacrificing anything by allowing them that privilege. introduction of Bill 23 in our Legislature. And when this happens - and most of us younger No doubt, The Manitoba Act of 1870 is still law as people hope it will - we in Manitoba will be a better, ruled by the Supreme Court of Canada and should, more co-operative and a more accepting, tolerant therefore, be adhered to by the lawmakers and citizens people. of this province. We firmly believe that these hearings Brian Lange, Moosehorn, Manitoba. were totally unnecessary. They are costly, time­ consuming and insisted on by the opposition for political expediency. SUBMISSION NO. 39 The issue is not one to be toyed with, and should be TEACHERS FROM ECOLE ST. MALO given more respect than it is receiving from the opponents. Monsieur le President, membres du comite. As responsible, law-abiding citizens, we strongly Selon !'article 23 de la Loi du Manitoba (1870), le object to the position taken by the opponents of Bill Manitoba est entre en Confederation en ayant un statui 23. A position which we firmly believe is one of bilingue. Depuis !'adoption de la Loi sur les langues attempting to gain political points. officielles (1890), l'anglais est devenu la seule langue On the same vein, we also strongly disagree with the officielle de cette province. Par retombee, les position taken by municipal and City of Winnipeg francophones ont ete entierement leses dans leurs droits councillors to hold referendums in order to obtain public pendant un siecle. En 1979, la Cour supreme du Canada opinion polls on the matter. This kind of action, no a declare inconstitutionnelle cette loi manitobaine sur doubt, is once again one of political expediency. les langues officielles et elle a soutenu la Loi du Manitoba The laws of our province and the rights of our (1870). Suite a I' adoption de la Constitution canadienne minorities must be respected and not used as a political en 1981, le gouvernement manitobain a dO etablir des football by those who are elected to public office. We, mecanismes permettant la mise en vigueur de !'article therefore, strongly urge this committee to completely 23. disregard the results of any referendum or public opinion Le retablissement du franc;:aiscomme langue d'usage poll taken in order to sway this committee in reaching devan! les tribunaux et a la legislature est perc;:u comme its decision. une menace parce que c'est un changement au statu Sincerely, Theresa Novak, Alex Novak. quo mais c'est seulement le respect de nos droits comme francophones vivants en sol manitobain. Nous, les professeurs de SI-Malo, travaillons dans la SUBMISSION NO. 38 division scolaire du Manitoba qui jouit du plus haul pourcentage de population francophone. Les ecoles BRIAN LANGE sont franc;:aises et la commission scolaire aussi Mr. Chairman, and members of the committee: fonctionne en franc;:ais. Mais il est impossible de continuer en franc;:ais pour !'administration officielle. 11 I come today representing, I would hope, all youth of est important que les francophones aient certains Manitoba to register my agreement with and support controies sur leurs institutions sociales et economiques. for the proposed resolution of our Manitoba Government Les amendements, tels que proposes en mai 1983, to entrench in our Constitution the fact that we are a seraient un pas important dans cette direction. province in the Dominion of Canada with two official 11 est essentiel que !'article 23 soit respecte pour le languages. plein epanouissement de la langue et de la culture de Our great-grandparents who decided to make us a nos eleves eduques dans les ecoles franc;:aises du province of Canada did so by signing The Manitoba Manitoba. Nous appuyons fortement la resolution Act. But they did not only make us a province. They negociee en mai 1983 entre la Societe franco­ made us a very distinct province, because they gave manitobaine et le gouvernement responsable de us the privilege of two official languages. All of us who Monsieur Pawley concern ant les amendements a I' article are Manitobans should be proud of this very unique 23 de !'Acte du Manitoba.

1169 Tuesday, 4 October, 1983

Voici les signatures des professeurs de I'Ecole St­ Monsieur le President, membres du comite. Malo qui appuient la resolution pour amender !'article Depuis que le gouvernement manitobain a manifeste 23 de I'Acte du Manitoba telle qu'elle a ete negociee: !'intention de rectifier le tort qui subsiste depuis 1890 Rita Rioux, Helene Hebert, Sr Berthe Alarie, Jacqueline a l'endroit des Franco-Manitobains, une tempete de Mireault, Colette M. Berard, Denis A. Fontaine, Marcelle protestations se fait entendre. C'est sans doute parce Desrosiers, Gisele P. Marion, Leo Lafrance, Aline que !'injustice existe depuis longue date que tout Gosselin, Colette Prefontaine. changement au statu quo est perc;:u comme menace. Cependant, le retablissement du franc;:aiscomme langue d'usage devant les tribunaux et a la legislature est SUBMISSION NO. 40 inevitable. DORIS HOGUE 11 reste a decider quels services offrir aux populations francophones de la province. C'est precisement cet Monsieur le President, membres du comite. aspect qui fait peur aux gens. lis estiment que ces N'est-il jamais venu a !'idee de personne de voir un services couteraient trop cher et que d'ailleurs, comme parallele entre le Iatin, langue d'erudit, chef d'oeuvre tout Franco-Manitobain est bilingue il n'y a nul besoin phonetique et linguistique, devenu par la force des d'offrir les memes dans deux langues. Ce serait une choses langue dite "morte" et le fait que certains gouvernements anterieurs, en abolissant !'usage du risee que d'avoir une province bilingue oO il serait fran<;;ais conferait a celle-ci tout I'eclat d'une langue de impossible de communiquer en franc;:ais avec son grande vicilisation, et qui devait passer a l'histoire du gouvernement pour les services essentiels. Manitoba en esperant en faire une langue "morte". Cette realite, le gouvernement l'a bien saisie. C'est Mais on a beau vouloir mater une population, on ne pour cela que dans I' entente avec la SFM, les services mate pas des peuples chez qui le fran<;;ais demeure une en franc;:ais juges necessaires etaient enumeres. langue vivante, et de surcroit, une langue d'action. Malheureusement, la bonne entente entre deux partis Enfin, Messieurs, n'est-il pas utopique de croire qu'en excitent la jalousie, la haine, la colere des autres. interdisant l'enseignement d'une langue, et qu'en Cependant, il ne faut pas que le gouvernement faiblisse refusant d'offrir des services dans cette meme langue, dans ses intentions, car elles sont justes pour tous. I'on proviendrait a rayer de la carte la langue d'un peuple J'appuie pleinement la resolution negociee au mois de fondateur qui a survecu a pire intemperie. Je n'ai pas mai par les gouvernements provincial et federal et la a vous rappeler que la route des premiers pionniers SFM pour amender !'article 23 de I'Acte du Manitoba. n'etait pas un tapis de roses. Comment ne pas Merci. reconnaitre la volonte, voire la perseverance, d'une Gilbert Fournier, population qui a su apprecier a sa juste valeur la culture President, et la langue que leur ont leguees leurs ancetres par Chambre de Commerce. dela monts et rivieres. Aussi, il faut tenir compte de I' evolution tant humaine que technique, et voir que le Manitoba n'est plus a I'ere SUBMISSION NO. 42 de la colonisation, isole dans sa plaine, mais a l'ere des communications universelles. GISELE LOVER Allait-on croire que nous allions nous laisser engloutir Monsieur le President, membres du comite. ainsi, alors que de tous cotes, enfin, grace aux Je m'adresse a vous, ce soir, a titre de Canadienne communications, nous parviennent des temoignages franc;:aiseet je suis fiere de ma langue et de ma culture. d'appuis de nos freres et soeurs francophones dans la Aussi, j'aimerais bien que mes enfants puissent vivre lutte que nous menons pour faire respecter nos droits pleinement leurs droits en tant que citoyens de langue et retablir les injustices passees. franc;:aise. Aussi, puisque de nos jours tout se sait, il taut Je ne comprends pas pourquoi on s'oppose si s'attendre a etre juge, condamne et blame pour des vivement a une loi qui veut reparer une injustice commise actes irresponsables qui perpetuent une grande il y a de cela 90 ans. Le gouverneme1�t actuel doit injustice, ou, etre felicite et reconnu comme un justicier employer tous les moyens necessaires pour reparer responsable en retablissant les droits de sa population cette erreur et ne pas faiblir devant !'opposition. qui fut lesee pendant de longues annees. Chacun de nous doit accepter de vivre avec la Enfin, Monsieur le President, membres du comite, il me fait done plaisir de m'adresser a vous aujourd'hui difference de l'autre. La majorite n'a pas le droit de dans une langue vivante: LE FRANCAIS, et ceci afin pietiner une minorite et !eur enlever les droits deja 11 de donner mon appui a !'entente negociee, en mai acquis. est temps que les Franco- Manifobains dernier, pour l'amendement a !'article 23 de I'Acte du manifestent leurs droits et reprennent ce qui leur est Manitoba. Merci. du, c'est-a-dire: "Le droit de s'adresser dans leur langue maternelle en tout lieu et en toute occasion". Doris Hogue C'est pourquoi, en toute justice, vous avez le devoir C.P. 539 d'appuyer l'encha.ssement de !'article 23 a I'Acte du lle-des-Chenes, Manitoba. Manitoba. Donnez-nous nos droits tels que proposes ROA OTO en mai dernier. Soyez audacieux, courageux et confiants 1-878-3293 car le bilinguisme au Manitoba ira loin. Je suis persuadee que le retablissement de la justice est votre priorite. Et nous, par notre presence de ce SUBMISSION NO. 41 soir, sommes ici pour vous temoigner notre appui dans GILBERT FOURNIER cette tache. Le franc;:aiset l'anglais deviendront bient6t

1170 Tuesday, 4 October, 1983 les deux langues officielles du Manitoba. C'est pourquoi, Je remercie Dieu que je suis nee au Canada, et je que moi, comme individu, j'appuie avec conviction la suis fiere de mes ancetres qui ont eu le courage de resolution negociee en mai dernier par la Societe franco­ quitter la France, il y a 400 ans pour venir faire partie manitobaine et le gouvernement du Manitoba. de la colonie sur les rives du fleuve St-Laurent. Cette Merci. colonie etait deja bien et ablie lorsque le roi de France signa le Traite de Paris. Gisele Loyer, Heureusement Lord Durham etait un homme au coeur Bte 159 B, R.R. 2, honnete. 11 a voulu donner justice au peuple conquis, Lorette, Manitoba et nous avons garde notre langue et notre foi. Bravo ROA OYO pour les anglais de cette trempe! Mes parents etaient tous deux de la province du Quebec. Mon pere aimait la terre et se rendit dans la SUBMISSION NO. 43 region d'Estevan, Saskatchewan ou il s'etablit sur un LE CLUB DE BICOLO homestead en 1909. La population de son entourage venait de differents pays d'Europe. lis ont tous appris Monsieur le president, membres du comite. l'anglais pour se comprendre entre voisins. Je garde C'est en tant que responsables du Club de Bicolo de tres bons souvenirs de ces gens-la. que nous vous presentons ce bref. Lorsque j'ai commence a aller a l'ecole, je ne parlais Notre Club s'adresse aux enfants de 4 a 14 ans. 11 que le fran�;ais - ma mere ne parfait pas l'anglais. existe depuis onze ans et compte aujourd'hui 7 200 Si je parle fran�;ais aujourd'hui, c'est parce qu'elle membres repartis a travers la province. Ces jeunes tenait a ce que ses enfants parlent la langue des francophones et francophiles jouissent d'une page de ancetres. Elle disait "C'est peut etre le seul heritage jeux de toutes sortes qui parait chaque semaine dans que vous aurez de nous". Elle avait raison. notre journal La Liberte. lis participent avec A l'ecole, il nous etait interdit de parler en fran<;:ais enthousiasme aux differents concours que nous initions entre nous, mon frere et moi. Nous avons done appris pour eux. l'anglais. J'ai frequente la petite ecole rurale jusqu'en Nous ne pouvons demeurer indifferentes devant la 1934 lorsque nous avons quitte la Saskatchewan pour controverse actuelle touchant nos droits linguistiques. venir a Ste-Anne, Manitoba. Au nom de ces jeunes, nous faisons appel a votre C'est alors que j'ai eu la chance d'apprendre a lire ouverture d'esprit, a votre sens des responsabilites pour et ecrire notre langue. reparer une injustice et redresser une situation illegale Les peres de la Confederation ont su garder les droits qui persiste depuis pres d'un siecle dans notre province. linguistiques des deux nation fondatrices de notre pays. Les Franco-Manitobains ont suffisamment soufferts du Tout de meme, les membres du gouvernement du manque de connaissance ou de la mauvaise volonte Manitoba ont ignore cette classe de notre Constitution de la part des gouvernements qui se sont succedes depuis 1890 dans cette province. 11 est grand temps et ont passe une loi pour abolir l'enseignement de que reparation soit faite. fran�;ais au Manitoba. Les membres honorables La loi actuelle doit etre changee. En redonnant a la ignoraient-ils qu'il y avait encore tout un peuple au a province son statut bilingue comme ce l'etait au debut Manitoba qui ne pouvait se plier cette loi injuste? Se et en offrant les services essentiels dans les deux voyant impuissants devant le gouvernement de la langues officielles, le gouvernement pourra enfin etre province, ce peuple organisa I'Association d'Education reconnu comme juste et equitable. En tant qu'adultes, Fran�;aise au Manitoba qui a collabore effectivement n'est-ce pas la l'exemple et l'enseignement que nous avec les educateurs et les parents pour que voulons laisser a nos jeunes qui nous observent et qui l'enseignement du fran�;aissubs iste dans not re province. suivront nos pas? Je serai toujours reconnaissante envers cette En leurs noms, nous appuyons la resolution negociee association et nos educateurs pour ma connaissance au mois de mai par les gouvernements federal, provincial un peu plus profonde de ma langue maternelle. Cela et la Societe franco-manitobaine pour amender I'Acte me permet aujourd'hui de pouvoir publier des livres du Manitoba et redonner aux francophones ce qui leur (contes que mon pere me racontait quand j'etais enfant). revient. Ca me permet aussi de communiquer tous les jours Nous osons croire en votre courage et en votre sens avec les voisins et amis de mon milieu; et de participer de la justice. a tout ce qui se passe. Merci. Je suis egalement capable de jouir de tous Cette soumission est signee: Laurence Berard, Nicole evenements - television radiofusee, etc . . . en anglais. Gagne, Cecile Mulaire. C'est merveilleux d'etre bilingue! Je souhaiterais que tous les Canadiens puissent l'etre. En 1941-42, j'enseignais dans la petite ecole rurale SUBMISSION NO. 44 de Ste--Anne Centre. J'avais 34 eleves de 6 ans a 14 VVONNE LEGASSE ans. Sur ce nombre, il yen avait 8 qui ne parlaient pas le fran<;:ais. Heureusement les parents n'etaient pas Monsieur le President et membres du comite. contre l'enseignement du fran�;ais - et les commissaires Je suis heureuse d'avoir !'occasion d'exprimer mon m'avaient demande de l'enseigner. opinion sur la question du bilinguisme au Manitoba. Je savais que lorsque l'inspecteur viendrait, il serait La survie de fram;:ais au Canada est tres importante peut-etre bon de cacher les livres francais et faire pour moi. Ce langage est !'heritage que j'ai re�;u de semblant que j'enseignais en anglais seulement eo m me mes ancetres et que je veux transmettre a mes enfants c'etait la coutume mais j'avais decide d'etre tranche et et a tous mes descendants. j'avoue que j'etais un peu curieuse de savoir ce qui se

1171 Tuesday, 4 October, 1983 passerait. Done lorsqu'il arriva au commencement moment aussi de faire la revue des lois legislatives qui d'octobre ii trouva du franvais ecrit sur le tableau noir existent et mettre aux panniers (un tas de paniers) celles et des livres franvais sur mon pupitre. Cela suscita un qui ne sont plus efficaces. Qui sait, on trouverait peut bel argument. etre des tresors oublies en faisant un tel menage. Vous savez que vous transgressez la loi du Manitoba? 11 taut dire aussi que les traducteurs n'auraient pas et savez-vous que je pourrais vous en lever votre permi besoin d'aide sociale pour un bon bout de temps. d'enseignement? (Je n'avais pas encore mon certificat Voyez-vous maintenant le beau cote de la medaille. d'enseignement.) J'ai repondu que les parents et les Bravo! J'en suis ravie. Merci de votre attention. commissaires m'avaient demande d'enseigner le franvais et que je faisais de mon mieux et que s'il y Temoignage d'Yvonne Lagasse avail une loi pour empikher l'enseignement du franvais Ste. Anne, Man. dans cette ecole ou plus que les 2/3 des eliwes etaient de parents franvais cette loi n'avait pas sa raison d'etre et devrait etre abolie car elle derobait a ces enfants SUBMISSION NO. 45 I' heritage linguistique auquel ils avaient droit. Pour ma LEO NADEAU part, je faisais ce que je pouvais pour leur transmettre Monsieur le President, membres du comite. cet heritage et que si j'etais inspecteur, je serais en Si j'ose vous adresser quelques paroles au cours de mesure d'en faire plus encore. ces audiences publiques, c'est que je crois que l'enjeu 11 se mit a rire et dit - tu perdrais ton emploi - et est trop eleve pour me permettre de ne rien dire. j'espere que tu vas changer d'idee. Pour cette fois, ea L'enjeu va bien au-dela de la survie de la population va passer mais a ma prochaine visite je ferai mon devoir. franco-manitobaine. C'est un enjeu qui touche a la Je compris done que je devrais jouer le jeu - et je population du Manitoba en entier. Le sort de notre gardais quand meme le droit de ne pas changer d'idee communaute en depend. Les lois qui ont aboli !'usage quand je sais que j'ai raison. Si les eleves apprenaient du franeais au Manitoba ont ete jugees la langue franeaise au detriment de l'anglais - ea ne anticonstitutionnelles. Si l'on continue a respecter ces serail pas bien car ils ont besoin de l'anglais. Je sais lois anticonstitutionnelles, c'est la fin de notre systeme que tous, nous sommes capable d'apprendre les langues judiciaire. Sur ce systeme judiciaire repose les officielles de ce pays. Si moi, j'ai ete capable - n'importe tondements de notre civilisation. Nous ne pouvons done qui est capable - pourvu qu'on lui en donne I' occasion. pas continuer a observer des lois qui menacent ainsi Je suis certaine que tous ceux qui sont bilingue sont notre societe. 11 taut bannir eternellement ces lois content de l'etre. De nos jours, on est en fait citoyens du monde entier. repressives dont !'existence n'est pas fondee sur la Les gens voyagent de plus en plus. Ceux qui connaissent legalite. plus qu'une langue ont sans doute plus d'agrement que Les Franco-Manitobains subissent les injustices ceux qui n'en possede qu'une seule. depuis 90 ans. lis ont patiente tout ce temps. On leur a Les pays d'Europe reconnaissent !'importance de doit d'amender ces lois qui les conduisent peu peu donner a leurs citoyens I' occasion de pouvoir apprendre vers une mort certaine. des langues autres que la leur. La Societe franco-manitobaine a agi dans l'interet Au Canada, nous sommes chanceux - les deux du groupe qu'elle represente. L'entente conclue le 17 langues offici�lles du pays sont aussi les deux langues mai est juste envers les Franco-Manitobains et aussi, universelles. envers le gouvernement provincial. I! s'agit d'une entente Pourrions-nous faire un effort pour nous debarrasser avantageuse pour tous les partis en question. de nos prejuges pour regarder la situation de plus haut? J'appuie fortement !'entente conclue le 17 mai 1983. Nous sommes tous citoyens d'un beau grand pays J'espere, messieurs, que vous en ferez autant. qui jouit du respect de tous les pays du monde. Nous Merci. avons des co-citoyens qui sont emmigres de ces pays Leo Nadeau et sont heureux de trouver ici une population qui jouit de la paix ou il fait bon vivre. C'est un pays ou les droits de l'homme sont respectes dont la Constitution protege SUBMISSION NO. 46 les minorites. LOUIS FIOLA Laissons done tomber nos pn3juges Collaborons tous ensemble pour hater le jour ou tous les Canadians Monsieur le President, membres du comite. a seraient plus unis - connaitraient toutes lcs langues J'aurais aime ne pas avoir me presenter devant ces officielles - ce qui ne devrait pas empecher qui que ce audiences publiques, mais il me semble qu'il y a des soit d'apprendre sa langue natale. choses qui doivent etre dites. Maintenant je veux parler de la traduction des lois Je deplore que le gouvernement de monsieur Pawley legislatives de la langue anglaise a la langue franeaise. soit reprimande pour vouloir accorder justice aux 11 est vrai que ea coutrait cher aux Manitobains, mais Franco-Manitobains et je deplore aussi le manque de on n'a rien sans peine - il taut toujours payer pour nos connaissance de l'histoire par certains membres du bevus. parlement et d'un certain nombre de nos concitoyens Si, depuis 1916 les lois avaient ete ecrites dans les quand on les entend repeter que la province a bien deux langues tel que la Constitution le demandait, on fonctionne dans une seule langue - l'anglais - depuis aurait paye les depenses petit a petit et on n'aurais pas cent ans. Moi, j'appelle cela de !'ignorance et de a payer tout ea d'un seul coup. l'etroitesse d'esprit. Je suis certaine que les Franco-Manitobains sont pret Nous, les Franco-Manitobains, qui avons paye double a faire leur part pour cette cause. Ce sera aussi le bon taxes pour maintenir nos ecoles privees et avons

1172 Tuesday, 4 October, 1983 depense beaucoup d'energie en faisant partie de continue sa marche pour retablir ses droits. plusieurs comites pour preserver notre culture, notre Heureusement, il y eut au Canada en 1968 la declaration langue et nos droits faute d'unjustices de la part de la de deux langues officielles. Et avec le gouvernement majorite et de nos politicians. Schreyer les droits d'enseignement dans les deux Je crois qu'il est grand temps que nos gouvernements langues furent retablis dans les annees 1970, un siecle nous redonnent nos droits et nous fassent justice. apres leur veritable acquisition. Le gouvernement qui aura le courage de nous rend re Mais les droits d'enseignement ne suffisent pas. 11 justice en faisant du Manitoba une province ou les deux taut remettre a droit la loi qui fut declaree langues officielles seraient offertes sur un pied d'egalite inconstitutionnelle par la Cour supreme du Canada en sera loue pour son sens de la justice. Ceci aiderait a 1979. 11 taut redonner la place juste a I' Acte du Manitoba creer une ouverture d'esprit et tous nos citoyens et surtout dans son article 23. viendraient un jour a comprendre la richesse de En plus, je travaille comme educateur dans la division connaitre nos deux langues officielles et autres s'ils le scolaire du Manitoba qui jouit du plus haut pourcentage veulent. de population francophone. 11 taut realiser que les ecoles En terminant, j'aimerais vous assurer que j'appuie la sont franc;:aises, que la commission scolaire fonctionne resolution pour amender I' article 23 de I' Acte du en franc;:ais et qu'au sein des municipalites rurales les Manitoba telle que negociee au mois de mai par la assises se deroulent en franc;:ais. Mais malheureusement Societe franco-manitobaine et le gouvernement du quand arrive !'administration officielle, impossible de Manitoba. continuer dans la langue quotidienne. Merci. Comme educateurs, nous crayons a I'im portance et Louis Fiola au droit des francophones d'administrer dans leur Ste-Genevieve, Manitoba. langue les institutions qui sont importantes a la survie et l'epanouissement des Franco-Manitobains. Les amendements qui veulent inserer les partis SUBMISSION NO. 47 impliques dans la Constitution representant, a notre CARMEN CATELLIER egard, un pas important dans la bonne direction. EDUCATEURS FRANCO-MANITOBAINS Si les gens qui siegent sur ce comite sont en profond DE LA desaccord avec ce bref historique nous avons dans la vallee de la Riviere Rouge des professeurs qui seraient DIVISION SCOLAIRE RIVIERE ROUGE NO. soucieux de presenter un cours sur l'histoire tel que 17 vecu par nos ancetres. Messieurs du comite. La Societe franco-manitobaine a negociee une Vu que je me presente ici au nom des Educateurs honorable entente avec le present gouvernement en franco-manitobains de la Division de la Riviere Rouge, mai de cette annee. Au nom des Educateurs franco­ je prends un plan de professeur. manitobains de la Riviere Rouge, je veux dire que nous Notre histoire je crois bien que vous la connaissez. appuyons la resolution pour amender !'article 23 de Mais il taut entendre cette histoire du point de vue du I'Acte du Manitoba telle qu'elle a ete negociee. jeune qui ecoute une lec;:on d'histoire du Manitoba. 11 Signed: Carmen Catellier. est celui qui subira ou jouira des consequences des decisions des gouvernants. Ce sont les gouvernants qui ont le privilege et la responsabilite de fac;:onner l'avenir SUBMISSION NO. 48 des jeunes. YVETTE FLU ET-GAGNON Voici ce que le jeune de 12 ans de la Riviere Rouge a appris et connait des droits accordes au Manitobains Monsieur le President, mesdames et messieurs. lors de !'entree de la Province en Confederation. J'eprouve une certaine angoisse de ces temps-ci. Une Notre province, le Manitoba fut etablie et bien angoisse legitime, car encore une fois nous voila en demaree par des Canadiens-Franc;:ais. L'histoire de position de quemander et de se defendre devant une notre province se raconte bien par les exploits et les majorite qui semble vouloir fermer les yeux, le coeur aventures de ses premiers habitants. Ou en serons­ et nier meme notre existence. On me dit que je n'ai nous sans le concours des LaVerendrye, des Voyageurs, pas juste cause, mais je n'ai qu'a ecouter les media et des Noel Ritchot et de Louis Riel? je frissonne. Comme francophone, je me souviens qu'a Un debat excitant mene a bonne fin par la conviction l'epoque ou j'etais ecoliere, on me defendais !'instruction et la persistance de plusieurs Metis et francophones en franc;:ais et j'ai peur que l'histoire se repete. Qu'une nous donna I' entree en Confederation. Les droits dans fois de plus nous verrons evaporer nos droits de vivre les deux langues officieiiPs pour les Cours de Justice, et d'apprendre en franc;:ais. a I'Assemblee legislative et en education etaient assures Sans doute vous, qui siegez au comite, avez appris aux habitants de la nouvelle province. des lec;:ons d'histoire durant ces dernieres semaines. Ensuite prenant gene devant une province peut-etre Vous avez certainement entendu l'histoire du Manitoba plus puissante economiquement, differents groupes racontee de fac;:on tres precise. On ne peut changer politiques desireux de conserver leur pouvoir de l'histoire. On peut oublier certains faits ou tenter de la legislation ont a deux reprises enleves les droits des raconter de la fac;:on qui nous plait; peu importe. Les deux langues officielles si honorablement acquis en dates, les evenements, les paroles et leurs effets sont 1870. inscrits a tout jamais et on ne peut les changer. Malgre des lois repressives, le Franco-Manitobain Ceci dit, je me demande, "que vont ecrire les continue d'exister. Et, avec conviction et tenacite, il historians de cette epoque dans l'histoire du Manitoba?"

1173 Tuesday, 4 October, 1983

Dira t'on que le gouvernement du temps, dans sa Societe franco-manitobaine. Notre porte-parole, la sagesse, declara la province bilingue et enchassa les Societe franco-manitobaine a negocie de benne foi et droits des francophones, afin de rectifier les fautes, les a accepte, au nom de tous les francophones du negligences des gouvernements precedents? Manitoba, une entente qui etait egalement acceptable Ou dira t'on qu'une fois de plus les Franco­ aux gouvernements provincial et federal. Manitobains se sent demenes pour obtenir leurs droits Monsieur le President, mesdames et messieurs les et qu'une fois de plus n'ont pas reussi, faute d'un membres du comite, il ne taut pas capituler! Vous avez gouvernement insecure et injuste? une chance unique et historique de redresser une Le premier exemple que j'ai cite sera verite si I'entente situation intolerable pour nous et humiliante pour vous. du 17 mai est respectee. Que ce gouvernement revienne Depuis cent ans que nous subissons injures et injustices a cette entente, sans diluer les amendements et il se parce que nos ancetres n'ont pas voulu laisser mourir fera une place d'honneur dans l'histoire et aura mis en leur langue et leur culture. Qui, nous sommes encore marche le retablissement de la confiance des minorites, ici, debouts et nous y resterons . . . Forts du meme qui a ce temps est serieusement endommagee. esprit combatif qui animait nos ancetres, solidaires a Je suis mere de famille et comme toute autre mere, travers la S.F.M., et surtout convaincus que la Cour j'espere que la vie sera plus deuce envers mes enfants, supreme nous fera justice, une fois pour toute, nous qu'elle ne m'a ete pour moL sommes plus que jamais inebranlables dans les En temps que francophone je ne peux que considerer revendications de nos droits. Nous voulons, et ne serons !'entente du 17 mai comme une assurance de cela. satisfaits avec rien de moins qu'une egalite totale dans Avec cette entente, enchassee, peut-etre qu'ils pourront nos droits linguistiques, ce qui implique un reseau vivre fiers de leur identite, sachant qu'ils n'auront pas d'institutions et une gamme de services a s'abaisser, a revendiquer leurs droits, a quemander gouvernementaux comparables a ceux disponibles aux tout ce qu'on prend pour acquis quand on est anglophones. anglophone. Bref, je vous exhorte en terminant, a prendre vos Pour ma famille, j'approuve et j'appuie fortement les responsabilites. 11 est dommage que cette question de amendements a !'article 23 tel que negocies le 17 mai droits constitutionnels et d'egalite fondamentale soit par la Societe franco-manitobaine et le gouvernement devenue, encore une fois, une question politique. Je du Manitoba. vous supplie done d'amender !'article 23 de I'Acte du Cette entente garantie une vie sur pied d'egalite, elle Manitoba, tel que negocie par la Societe franco­ est juste et j'y crois. manitobaine, le gouvernement provincial et le gouvernement federal, le 17 mai dernier. Toute dilution Yvette Fluet-Gagnon de ce projet de loi sera consideree un affront a la lle-des-Chenes, Manitoba. communaute francophone du Manitoba et sera par ce fait meme, inacceptable. Je le n9pete, vous avez une chance unique de redresser une situation d'injustice SUBMISSION NO. 49 historique. Ne la manquez pas! GILBERT LEGAL Respectueusement soumis au nom de I'Ecole secondaire La Broquerie par Gilbert Legal. Monsieur le President, mesdames et messieurs les membres du comite. Je suis directeur de I'Ecole secondaire de La SUBMISSION NO. 50 Broquerie et c'est comme representant des professeurs HUBERT BALCAEN et des eleves de cette ecole secondaire fran<;:aise que je me presente devant ce comite de la legislature Monsieur le President, membres du comite. manitobaine. J'ai repondu a !'invitation faite au public manitobain C'est avec beaucoup d'interet que nous suivions de se presenter devant vous et ce, dans le but depuis trois ans les developpements juridiques et d'exprimer sans equivoque mon appui a !'entente de politiques en ce qui a trait aux droits linguistiques des principe conclue en mai de cette annee entre la SFM Franco-Manitobains. Nous nous rejouissions de la et les paliers de gouvernement provincial et federal, en victoire de M. Georges Forest en Cour supreme du ce qui a trait aux amendements proposes a I' article 23 Canada, mais nous deplorons en meme temps qu'il a de I'Acte du Manitoba. dO depenser autant de temps et d'argent pour obtenir Mes raisons pour cet appui sent au nombre de trois un droit qui aurait dO nous etre constitutionnellement et les voici: garanti depuis toujours. Nous deplorons egalement Premierement, je crois que ces amendements !'attitude du gouvernement Lyon de l'epoque, face au s'imposaient depuis longtemps pour corriger une erreur jugement de la Cour supreme dans l'affaire Forest. Cette remontant a presque un siecle deja. C'est une initiative moquerie totale d'un jugement de la Cour supreme est importante de ce point de vue. lmportante aussi, pour selon nous un outrage a la cour et denote une bigoterie la minorite de langue officielle qui, depuis des decennies, semblable a celle qui a provoque la question des ecoles subit les ravages de !'assimilation et est de plus en plus du Manitoba en 1896 et I' abolition des ecoles bilingues privee de l'oxygene linguistique et culture! necessaire en 1916. a sa survie sans parler de son epanouissement. 11 va sans dire que nous etions tres fiers et encourages En deuxieme lieu, les amendements proposes a l'acte par les demarches entreprises par le gouvernement neo­ 23 prevoient la possibilite de services dans les deux democrate de M. Pawley ce printemps dernier, suite langues de la majorite officielle du Canada. Comme je au cas Bilodeau et aux revendications constantes de vis dans une de ces regions, j'aimerais me prevaloir de la Societe franco-manitobaine. Notre porte-parole, la ces services tout en sachant que la majorite, elle, ne

1174 Tuesday, 4 October, 1983 sera pas lesee pour autant. lnutile d'entrer dans les apparaissait sur la scene educative. Entre temps, details des coGts, ici: la documentation officielle publiee Georges Forest gagnait a la aCour supreme du Canada depuis mai est fort explicite a ce sujet. en faisant declarer anticonstitutionnelle la loi de 1890 Enfin, Monsieur le President, !'entente conclue en qui interdisait l'usage du fran<;:ais dans les cours et a mai a ete negociee aut our du principe de base que "les la legislature. En 1983, les gouvernements provincial et langues officielles du Manitoba sont le fran�;ais et federal et la Societe franco-manitobaine signaient une l'anglais". Je suis persuade que ce principe-la peut etre entente pour redonner a la langue fran<;:aise la place une occasion de tolerance et de respect pour les qu'elle occupait jadis. Manitobains. En acceptant les amendements a I' article Ce bref resume historique indique bien la tendance. 23 tels que conclus dans !'entente du 17 mai, j'ose Le fran<;:ais est a la hausse! Le beau temps revient! croire que le Manitoba s'affichera comme un exemple A ceux qui craignent un "French takeover" au qui fera des envieux dans plusieurs regions de notre Manitoba, j'aimerais vous dire que c'est impossible car pays. nous ne sommes que 6 pour cent. Ce que nous voulons, Merci. c'est le respect de nos droits. J'aimerais, en terminant, vous dire que j'appuie avec conviction la resolution pour amender !'article 23 de SUBMISSION NO. 51 I'Acte du Manitoba, telle qu'elle a ete negociee au mois LE CLUB DE CURLING DE LA BROQUERIE de mai entre le gouvernement du Manitoba et la Societe franco-manitobaine. Monsieur le President, membres du comite. Merci. J'aimerais souligner quelques points au sujet du debat qui fait rage depuis que le gouvernement de la province Signed Jeannine Kirouac, entend amender I' article 23 de I' Acte du Manitoba. C.P. 82 Premierement, je ne sais pas si les media sont La Broquerie, Manitoba responsables, mais il me semble qu'on est en train de ROA OWO faire beaucoup de bruit pour peu de chases. Les manchettes, les editoriaux, les lettres aux redacteurs, des feuillets, des petitions et meme ces audiences SUBMISSION NO. 53 publiques. RACHELLE OUELLET Que vise l'amendement du Manitoba, sinon un certain epanouissement de la vie fran�;aise au Manitoba? Et je Monsieur le President, membres du comite. 11 ne vois toujours pas comment cet epanouissement chez ne s'agit pas de venir quemander pour que nos 5 pour cent de la population peut menacer la majorite. droits soient respectes mais plut6t de l'exiger. J'ose Deuxiemement, au sujet de ces audiences publiques, l'exiger non pas dans un esprit de confrontation, ni je ne crois pas qu'elle soient un bien. Une injustice a dans celui de remiicher toutes les injustices, mais dans ete commise et elle doit etre rectifiee. On ne demande !'intention de faire reconnaitre le meilleur de nous­ pas I'opinion des gens au sujet d'un certain cas devant memes. les tribunaux. Pourquoi alors veut-on sander !'opinion J'estime que ce que nous, les francophones, avons manitobaine avant de !rancher une question avant tout re<;:u par le passe est insuffisant. Je crois que I'entente leg ale? telle que proposee le 17 mai faciliterait un style de Troisiemement, je souhaite que I' on remarque surtout rapports d'oG seraient exclues les traces de les points positifs d'une province manitobaine paternalisme et d'inconsciente impression de superiorite officiellement bilingue. Cela aiderait certainement le de la part de la majorite et a la fois celles de mefiance Canada a demeurer le beau pays qu'il est. Et puis, quel et de crainte de la part de la minorite. Plus on nous signe encourageant pour les nombreuses minorites du reconnaitra une egale dignite et liberte d'expression, pays, de savoir que la minorite officielle du Manitoba plus on pourra s'engager au service de tous les a gain de cause dans le retablissement de ses droits. Manitobains. Tout <;:a pour vous dire que j'appuie la resolution En respectant !'entente du 17 mai le Manitoba ne negociee au mois de mai pour amender !'article 23 de peut que gagner. L'echange et l'enrichissement mutuel I' Acte du Manitoba. Merci. seraient rendus plus possible. C'est pour cela que Cette soumission est signee par Oscar Gagnon, Estelle j'appuie la resolution originale d'amendement a I' article Taillefer, Rita Nadeau, Gil Tetrault et Jean Normandeauf 23 - sans les nouvelles modifications. Merci.

SUBMISSION NO. 52 JEANNINE KIROUAC SUBMISSION NO. 54 CO MITE CUL TUREL - LA BROQUERIE Monsieur le President, membres du comite. En 1890, !'usage du fran�;ais dans les cours et a la Monsieur le President, membres du comite. chambre des deputes etait aboli. En 1916, La resolution pour amender !'article 23 de I'Acte du l'enseignement en fran<;:ais dans les ecoles publiques Manitoba, telle que negociee au mois de mai est plus du Manitoba etait interdit. Malgre ces lois repressives, qu'un moyen de compenser pour !'injustice commise le Franco-Manitobain continua d'exister. depuis longtemps. C'est !'occasion de nous reconnaitre En 1970, le gouvernement d'Edward Schreyer une egale dignite. Occasion qu'on ne voudra pas permettait la creation d'ecoles fran<;:aises. Moins d'une manquer! Ainsi les changements proposes dans decennie plus tard, l'ecole d'immersion fran<;:aise !'entente du 17 mai feront plus que nous remettre ce

1175 Tuesday, 4 October, 1983 qui est essentiel a notre survie et a notre evolution. lis fut mise sur pied a l'interieur du ministere de !'Education permettront a taus les Manitobains de s'enrichir du appelee le "Bureau de !'education francaise". Les meilleur de nous-memes et rendront possible un dirigeants, mieux informes et mains prejuges que la echange plus fructueux. masse populaire, comprirent le role important de Les changements proposes dans !'entente originale justification et rectification qui leurs incombait. n'ont rien de menacant pour la majorite anglophone. Comment se fait-il, alors, que tant de monde s'oppose lis ne leur enleveront rien. La majorite a tout a gagner a reconnaitre la loi 113 qui fut adoptee a l'unanimite en nous reconnaissant pour ce que nous sommes. Ainsi par I'Assemblee legislative du Manitoba le 16 juillet seulement pourrons nous nous engager au service de 1970? Cette loi a pourtant reconnu legalement, ce qui taus. etait considere comme acquis depuis !'entree du 11 va sans dire aussi que l'enchassement de nos droits Manitoba dans la confederation: le droit, pour ceux ne pourra qu'etre un pas vers l'avant pour les ethnies, qui le desirent, d'inscrire leurs enfants dans une ecole groupes minoritaires eux aussi. publique ou l'enseignement serail dispense en francais Le gouvernement actuel ne peut plus se permettre de la maternelle a la douzieme an nee. Pour s'y opposer, d'hesiter a rectifier une loi anticonstitutionnelle qui nu it il faut certainement posseder des sentiments de jalousie a une meilleure comprehension et une meilleure et de haine ou simplement etre tenement imbu de participation de taus Manitobains. prejuges que !'ignorance fait disparaitre toute possibilite Nous appuyons done la resolution originale de comprehension. Aucune menace ne semble surgir d'amendement a !'article 23 - sans les nouvelles a !'horizon pour les autres denominations ethniques. modifications. Elles ne doivent done avoir aucune crainte de perdre les droits qui leurs sont dus. Elles peuvent vivre en toute Signed: Rachelle Ouellet, Norbert Piche, Hermanne securite et s'epanouir tout en laissant les autres en faire Granger, Florence Torcutti, Eva Moquin, and Denise autant. Qui sait si l'avenir ne leurs reserve pas des Boily. occasions ou une collaboration etroite avec ceux qu'elles persecutent maintenant serail de mise. Nous crayons qu'il est imperatif que l'on redonne aux SUBMISSION NO. 55 Franco-Manitobains leurs droits sans prejudice pour le CLERCS DE SAINT-VIATEUR reste de la population. Aussi, nous voulons signaler que M. le president, membres du comite. nous appuyons la resolution qui a ete negociee le 17 Representant la Congregation des Clercs de Saint­ mai 1983 pour amender !'article 23 de I'Acte du Viteur de La Broquerie, je dais vous avouer que nous Manitoba. J'espere, M. le president, que vous et les sommes stupefaits de constater que des Manitobains membres du comite, n'hesiterez pas un instant a vous puissent protester si violemment a une rectification de prononcer en faverus de cette resolution. Je vous en lesion de droit acquis des la formation de cette province. fait confiance. En fait, regardant l'histoire de la province, nous Merci! constatons qu'en 1870, Louis Riel, chef du Real St-Pierre, c.s.v.; Gaetan Lefebvre, c.s.v.; Gerard gouvernement provisoire a la Riviere Rouge exigea des Clavet, c.s.v. garanties pour la langue fran<;:aise sur le nouveau territoire manitobain avant d'accepter de faire partie officiellement de la Confederation canadienne. L'Acte SUBMISSION NO. 56 du Manitoba, a ce moment, rendait le fran<;:aiset I' anglais PIERRE PALUD langues officielles de la nouvelle province et offrait deux PROFESSEURS DU SECONDAIRE DE systemes d'education a fondement confessionnel. L'ECOLE POINTE-DES-CHENES Des 1890, ces droits furent violes et leses. Toutes tentatives pour rectifier cette anomalie echouerent. En M. le president, membres du comite. 1916, le gouvernement conduit par T. C. Norris, adopta Les amendements proposes a !'article 23 de I'Acte la loi Thornton qui abolissait les ecoles bilingues et du Manitoba suscitent de nos jours "eaucoup de faisait de l'anglais la seule langue d'enseignement au controverse chez les Manitobains. Mais, pourquoi toute Manitoba. La minorite fran<;:aise s'opposa fortement a cette controverse? N'est-il pas vrai que les Franco­ cette fa<;:on injuste d'agir et depuis, elle lutte avec Manitobains ne reclament aujourd'hui que des droits acharnement pour voir justice se manifester. 11 semble qui d'apres I'Acte du Manitoba de 1870, leur sont dus que les immigrants venus de differents pays pour depuis plus de 90 ans. chercher fortune au Manitoba ne comprennent pas la 11 est a remarquer et, notons le bien, que ce que situation. C'est pourquoi une grande majorite de ces reclament aujourd'hui les Franco-Manitobains n'enleve immigrants s'opposent si violement a ce que les droits absolument rien au autres ethnies de la province. Tout des francophones soient recuperes. Ceux qui ont pris au contraire. Alors pourquoi y a-t-il tant de gens qui la peine et le temps de se renseigner savent bien qu'a s'opposent-ils? Nous n'arrivons pas a comprendre la fin des annees quarante et une vingtaine d'annees pourquoi tant de gens veulent s'opposer a des plus tard, le gouvernement permit !'utilisation du fran<;:ais amendements qui d'un cote ne leur enlevent rien et qui comme langue d'enseignement. Aussi, les bien­ de l'autre cote ne font que corriger les injustices pensants, les gens a esprit ouvert savent que ceci fut commises par des gouvernements ulterieurs. suivi en 1970 par la loi 113, passee par le gouvernement De plus, nous savons taus que la loi qui a interdit neo-democrate de Ed Schreyer, qui etablit le fran<;:ais l'usage du fran<;:ais devant les tribunaux et au et l'anglais comme langues officielles d'enseignement gouvernement de cette province vient tout recemment au Manitoba. En 1974, une structure organisationnelle d'etre declaree anticonstitutionnelle. Comment le peuple

1176 Tuesday, 4 October, 1983 manitobain peut-il s'opposer a la rectification d'une loi, M. le president, membres du comite, la langue qui, aux yeux de la Cour supreme, est illegale? Alors, fran<;:aiseest une tres belle langue. Nous voulons qu'elle n'est-il done pas tout a fait ridicule que nous ayons a soit utilisee. Nous voulons des services en fran<;:ais. Nous nous presenter ici aujourd'hui pour reclamer des droits voulons que le Manitoba soit bilingue. qui nous appartiennent deja? C'est pourquoi, M. le president, membres du comite, 11 va done sans dire, M. le president, membres du nous repetons avec intensite que nous appuyons la comite, que notre gouvernement neo-democrate a resolution qui a ete negociee au mois de mai pour pleinement raison de vouloir aujourd'hui assurer la amender I'article 23 de I'Acte du Manitoba. survie de la langue fran<;:aise au Manitoba. Notre Merci. gouvernement se doit de rectifier l'erreur commise a Nous appuyons le brei ci-inclus: Hubert Bouchard l'epoque du gouvernement Greenway. 11 est done (president), Yvette Gagnon, Beatrice Boily, S. Fournier, imperatif que les Manitobains appuient leur Una Decelles, Liliane Boily, Anita Bouchard, Suzanne gouvernement dans le retablissement de la justice. Fournier, Carmelle Gagnon, Jules Balcaen, Jeanne Ce que nous vous demandons done maintenant, Balcaen, Lucie Kirouac, Lucille Tetrault, Celine Gagnon, Messieurs du comite, c'est que vous recommandiez Yolande Laurencelle, Helene Nadeau, Antoine !'inscription dans les lois manitobaines des Bissonnette, Jeannine Kirouac. amendements a !'article 23 tels que negocies au mois de mai dernier par la Societe franco-manitobaine et le gouvernement Pawley. Tout cela, Messieurs, pour vous SUBMISSION NO. 59 dire que nous appuyons fortement la resolution pour GILLES NORMANDEAU amender !'article 23 de I'Acte du Manitoba. Merci. Mon nom est Gilles Normandeau, directeur de l'eole Pointe-des-Chenes a Sainte-Anne, au Manitoba. Au nom des professeurs de ladite ecole, je tiens a souligner qu'il SUBMISSION NO. 57 est malheureux que nous ayons a defendre des droits CLAUDETTE LAVACK qui nous avaient ete accordes lors de l'entree en Confederation de la province du Manitoba en 1870. 11 M. le president, membres du comite. semble inconvenable dans une democratie comme la L'usage du fran<;:ais dans la cour et a la Chambre n6tre que des gouvernements aient pu, a travers des des deputes etait aboli en 1890; egalement en 1916, prejuges et des haines cultives, leser ainsi des droits l'enseignement en fran<;:ais dans les ecoles publiques acquis en toute justice apres des deliberations !ranches du Manitoba etait supprime. Malgre ces lois repressives, et honnetes entre le gouvernement provisoire a la Riviera le Franco-Manitobain continua d'exister. Rouge et le gouvernement federal. Depuis 1970, nous avons des ecoles fran<;:aises. La L' Acte du Manitoba, en 1870, stipulait clairement que population des ecoles d'immersion fran<;:aises fait le fran.;;ais et l'anglais etaient les langues officielles de ampleur; ces etudiants sont tiers d'apprendre une la nouvelle province et meme offrait deux systemes seconde langue et nous, comme educateurs, sommes d'education a fondement confessionnel. egalement tiers de la leur enseigner. Et ceci tout en Comment des gens, se disant "de bonne volonte" leur demontrant qu'ils soient egalement tiers de leur et voulant le progres de cette province du Manitoba, langue maternelle, quoi qu'elle soit. peuvent perdre un temps precieux et des energies Nous oserions esperer que ces etudiants auront la necessaires pour continuer a vivre un tort commis sans chance de mettre en pratique leur seconde langue, sembler vouloir s'arreter pour reflechir serieusement partout ou ils iront au Manitoba d'ici peu. depasse notre comprehension. Je termine en disant que nous appuyons fortement Actuellement, M. le president, le gouvernement neo­ !'entente qui a ete negociee au mois de mai pour democrate tente de reparer un tort qui existe depuis amender I' article 23 de I' Acte du Manitoba par la Societe 90 ans. Dans un pays civilise, comment ne pas seconder franco-manitobaine et les gouvernements provincial et un gouvernement qui s'effore, lui, de comprendre et federal. de reparer un manque de justice? Merci. C'est pourquoi le personnel enseignant de l'ecole Pointe-des-Chenes desire appuyer la resolution qui a ete negociee le 17 mai 1983 pour amender !'article 23 SUBMISSION NO. 58 de I'Acte du Manitoba. J'espere, M. le president, HUBERT BOUCHARD membres du comite, que vous n'hesiterez pas a vous COMITE PROTECTEUR SCOUTS-GUIDES prononcer en faveur de cette resolution. Je vous en fait DE LA BROQUERIE confiance. Merci. M. le president, membres du comite. Nous sommes bouleverses par la controverse que Gilles Normandeau, suscite les amendements a !'article 23 de I'Acte du C.P. 269 Manitoba. La Broquerie, Manitoba Nous ne comprenons pas l'acharnement a s'opposer ROA OWO a une loi qui veut reparer les fautes commises a la fin du 19e siecle. Le present gouvernement provincial et federal et la SUBMISSION NO. 60 Societe franco-manitobaine avaient bien raison de ARMAND FRECHETTE conclure une entente pour remettre aux Franco­ Manitobains les droits et les services en fran<;:ais. Monsieur le president, me"'lbres du comite.

1177 Tuesday, 4 October, 1983

C'est au nom de tous les aint�s de notre paroisse de !'article 23, avec les amendements, tel que negocies, La Broquerie que je me presente pour la survivance du soit enchasse dans la Constitution canadienne. franc;:ais. La Chambre de commerce de Saint-Pierre-Jolys La controverse qu'ont suscitee les amendements supporte cette resolution. proposes est de bien mauvais augure. Un grand nombre Merci. de Manitobains ont ose exprimer leur mefiance envers des changements dont ils n'ont meme pas saisi la portee. Signed: Leonard Desharnais, President lis craignent le pire, ils se volent menaces par ces changements, si moderes soient-ils. 11 est essentiel de ne pas se laisser influencer par toute cette emotivite SUBMISSION NO. 62 inspiree par !'ignorance meme. Tous ceux qui refusent LE PERSONNEL DE L'ECOLE SAINT­ de respecter les droits des Franco-Manitobains font JOACHIM DE LA BROQUERIE signe d'une etroitesse d'esprit qui ne peut que mener M. le president, membres du comite. a l'appauvrissement culture! du Manitoba. Depuis 1890, Nous, le personnel de l'ecole Saint-Joachim de La les Franco-Manitobains ont endure heroiquement les Broquerie, aimerions vous dire que nous appuyons avec injustices perpetrees par un gouvernement qui etait alle grande conviction la resolution pour amender !'article au-dela de son pouvoir. Le gouvernement neo­ 23 de I'Acte du Manitoba, telle qu'elle a ete negociee democrate d'aujourd'hui a I'occasion revee de reparer au mois de mai entre le gouvernement du Manitoba et les erreurs du passe, de remettre a une population lesee ce qui est essentiel a son epanouissement. Ne tardons la Societe franco-manitobaine. pas davantage - 90 ans ont deja retarde tragiquement En 1870, lors de la naissance du Manitoba, une a I'action tandis qu'elle donne encore quelques signes entente avait ete conclue, acceptant que les langues de vie. franc;:aise et anglaise soient communes dans la La Societe franco-manitobaine a su tres bien legislature et les cours, et que tous les documents representer la population franco-manitobaine. Tout au publics soient publies dans les deux langues. cours des negociations, elle ne voulait qu'assurer la En 1890, !'usage du franc;:ais dans les cours et a la survie des siens. Les amendements proposes sont un legislature etait aboli. En 1916, l'enseignement en moyen de provoquer la renaissance des Manitobains franc;:ais dans les ecoles publiques du Manitoba etait d'expression franc;:aise. interdit. 11 est imperatif que l'on redonne aux Franco­ N'est-ce pas la, grave injustice envers les Franco­ Manitobains leurs droits. J'appuie done la resolution Manitobains? Nos droits nous ont ete arraches par des pour amender !'article 23 telle que negociee par la gens qui avaient sOrement peu de tolerance, peu de Societe franco-manitobaine et les gouvernements soucis pour la culture de leurs voisins ou meme de leurs provincial et federal au mois de mai. enfants. Merci. Nous voyons l'amendement de I'Acte du Manitoba, non une menace pour qui que ce soit, mais plutot, un epanouissement de la vie franc;:aise au Manitoba. Ce SUBMISSION NO. 61 serait une richesse pour notre province, quelque chose LEONARD DESHARNIAS de plus a etre tier. Le gouvernement actuel veut remettre cette province LA CHAMBRE DE COMMERCE DE SAINT­ dans le droit chemin de ses engagements PIERRE-JOLVS constitutionnels. Nous applaudissons fortement une telle M. le president, membres du comite. demarche. Nous demandons que les droits de nos peres Le Manitoba est une province qui contient encore soient respectes. des communautes francophones bien vivantes, des Merci. ecoles qui enseignent le franc;:ais aux francophones Norman J. Lavack (directeur), Yvette Gagnon, Henri comme aux anglophones, ainsi qu'une culture distincte Bisson, Florence Torcutti, Carmelle Gagnon, Jeannine franco-manitobaine. Kirouac, Georgette Gerardy et Lucille Bisson. 11 y a encore des elements franc;:ais fortsdans notre province malgre les injustices imposees sur ceux-ci pendant les derniers 90 ans. Pourquoi ne pas donner SUBMISSION NO. 63 la chance a plusieurs de travailler, recevoir des services NORMAND BARNABE et de vivre quotidiennement en franc;:ais? Ce qu'on entend sur la media a propos des droits M. le president, membres du comite. en question, et tout le brouhaha qui sort de ces Ces audiences publiques, bien qu'elles ne veuillent audiences publiques engendre de la peur, des fausses que donner !'occasion a chacun de s'exprimer, idees et fausses impressions parmi la population non n'atteignent pas toujours leur noble but. Au contraire, francophone du Manitoba. La verite de ce qui s'est elles propagent l'hostilite et accentuent de plus en plus passe en 1870, 1890 et 1916 n'est pas comprise. les divisions qui marquent notre communaute La ville de Winnipeg propose un referendum sur la manitobaine. question de la survivance du franc;:aisau Manitoba, tout Le gouvernement a distribue cet ete un depliant avec c;:aavec de la fausse information. Peut-etre que le maire lequel il esperait apaiser les craintes des opposants aux de Winnipeg devrait inclure dans son referendum une amendements. Ce depliant n'a pas suffi, puisque les question sur "Seat-Belt Legislation". opposants vociferent toujours de plus en plus et ils ont Les Franco-Manitobains aujourd'hui demandent que meme reussi a obtenir la tenue de ces audiences leur destin soit enleve des mains des politicians et que publiques. 11 semblerait que le gouvernement soit en

1178 Tuesday, 4 October, 1983 train de rebrousser chemin, sinon de sacrifier Tout ceci pour vous dire que nous, le Comite de completement les principes selon lesquelles !'entente parents de l'ecole elementaire de Saint-Pierre, appuyons a ete negociee. la resolution pour amender !'article 23 de I'Acte du Cessans de donner libre cours a la vehemence. Manitoba telle que negociee au mois de mai par le Faisons un effort pour mettre fin a la discorde entre gouvernement federal, le gouvernement provincial et Manitobains d'expression anglaise et ceux d'expression la SFM. fran<;aise. 11 suffit d'amender !'article 23 de I'Acte du Merci. Manitoba. Les opposants cesserons d'etre belliqueux Signed: Lyse Desharnais lorsqu'ils constateront que les amendements ne Jes affectent aucunement. Le retablissement de la justice doit etre notre priorite. SUBMISSION NO. 66 M. le president, membres du comite, j'espere que AI ME TETRAULT vous partagez mon opinion. 11 taut appuyer la resolution, telle que negociee au mois de mai pour amender I'article M. le president, membres du comite. 23 de I'Acte du Manitoba. Je l'appuie et j'en suis tier. Mon nom est Aime Tetrault et je suis natif de La Merci. Broquerie. Je suis co-proprietaire de quelques commerces et gerant de La Broquerie Lumber Ltd. Nous offrons a tous nos clients un service bilingue puisque SUBMISSION NO. 64 notre personnel est bilingue. Etant gerant d'un AIME GAUTHIER commerce, je crois que l'amendement de !'article 23 LE COMITE DE DIRECTION DU CENTRE de I' Acte du Manitoba serait certainement utile pour tous les commerces bilingues du Manitoba. RECREATIF DE SAINT-PIERRE-JOL VS Une injustice a ete commise et elle doit etre rectifiee. Je desire enoncer quelques idees dont on devrait Je crois que le gouvernement actuel de cette province tenir compte lorsqu'on decide si l'on doit appuyer ou se doit de mettre en vigueur une entente et de venir non les amendements proposes a I' article 23 de I'Acte ainsi combler les faiblesses de tous Jes autres du Manitoba. gouvernements qui l'ont precede. Je dis faiblesse car Premierement, il taut retenir le fait que la loi qui a tous ces gouvernements qui ont Jaisse se propager cette interdit !'usage du fran<;ais devant Jes tribunaux et au injustice ont fait preuve d'un serieux manque de gouvernement a ete declaree anticonstitutionnelle. A responsabilite envers leur population francophone; partir de ce fait, je ne peux pas m'expliquer toute population dont la participation dans le passe a batir !'hesitation du gouvernement et !'opposition d'une cette province n'est pas a redire. grande partie de la population. Je ne peux comprendre M. le president, membres du comite, j'espere que 11 que l'on refuse de rectifier une loi "illegale". L'opposition vous partagez mon opinion. taut appuyer la resolution, que I'on manifeste depasse les bornes du raisonnement. telle que negociee au mois de mai pour amender I' article 23 de l'Acte du Manitoba. Si l'on n'elimine pas les lois "illegales", quelle valeur Merci. notre systeme judiciaire peut-il avoir? Si I'on continue a reconnaitre cette Joi qui n'est pas Jegale, on doit Signed: Aime Tetrault remettre en question notre societe, notre gouvernement La Broquerie Lumber Ltd. et toutes nos institutions. 11 va de soi que les fondements de notre civilisation elle-meme s'ecrouleraient. La gravite d'une telle situation fait peur. 11 taut regler chez nous SUBMISSION NO. 67 les problemes de langues officielles et nous taut le faire LE COMITE DE PATINAGE ARTISTIQUE DE sans plus de delai. LA BROQUERIE M. le president, membres du comite, nous accordons notre appui a la resolution negociee au mois de mai M. le president, membres du comite. pour amender !'article 23 de I' Acte du Manitoba. Nous appuyons la resolution pour amender !'article Merci. 23, telle que negociee par la Societe franco-manitobaine et les gouvernements provincial et federal au mois de mai dernier. Depuis 1890, des injustices ont ete faites a l'egard SUBMISSION NO. 65 des fran<;ais en enlevant !'usage du fran<;ais dans Jes LYSE DESHARNIAS cours et a la Chambre des deputes. Sans doute que le M. !e president, membres du comite. gouvernement actuel s'en est rendu compte. C'est avec regret que notre comite se sent presse Nous crayons que les jeunes francophones pourrait de presenter ce memoire. En acceptant de tenir ces davantage evoluer avec une grande fierte pour Jeur audiences publiques, vous montrez une certaine attitude identite si les services en fran<;ais leur seraient plus de laisser-aller. Vous etes maintenant dans une position accessibles. ou vous pourriez remedier une injustice qui a affecte Pensez-y, Messieurs, une province bilingue <;aserait la vie de plusieurs generations de francophones, et vous un example que les minorites sont respectes dans notre vacillez dans cette tache. pays et qu'on ne devrait pas defaire et en lever Jes droits etablis dans une constitution! Nous nous rejouissons que nos enfants detiennent Merci. certains droits en ce qui concerne leur education en Cecile Fournier (presidente), Jacinthe Mireault fran<;ais, mais nous voudrions qu'ils puissent vivre en (secretaire-tresoriere), Yolande Tetrault, Jennifer fran<;ais en dehors de nos foyers et de nos ecoles. Si, Granger et Diane Turenne. chers Messieurs, vous appliquez les lois tel que stipule dans !'article 23, ils le pourront.

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SUBMISSION NO. 68 Pawley Government to amend Bill 23 of The Manitoba IRMA GAUTHIER Act. Thank you. Monsieur le president, membres du comite. C'est au nom de tous les aines de notre paroisse de Signed: Jacques Trudeau, Box 333, lle-des-Chenes. La Broquerie que je me presente pour la survivance du franc;:ais. La controverse qu'ont suscitee les amendements SUBMISSION NO. 70 proposes est de bien mauvais augure. Un grand nombre MARJORIE BEAUCHEMIN de Manitobains ont ose exprimer leur mefiance envers des changements dont ils n'ont meme pas saisi la portee. M. le president, membres du comite. lis craignent le pire, ils se voient menaces par ces Nous voici ici reunis - nous les francophones du changements, si moderes soient-ils. 11 est essentiel de Manitoba en train de se debattre une fois de plus pour ne pas se laisser influencer par toute cette emotivite ce qui nous est du. 11 nous semble toujours le cas en inspiree par !'ignorance meme. Tous ceux qui refusent lequel nous devons faire face. C'est le temps en toute de respecter les droits des Franco-Manitobains font justice que celle-ci soit donnee au francophones du signe d'une etroitesse d'esprit qui ne peut que mener Manitoba. a l'appauvrissement culture! du Manitoba. Depuis 1890, Je viens alors, par la presente, appuyer la resolution les Franco-Manitobains ont endure heroiquement les a l'amendement tel que presente dans !'article 23 de injustices perpetrees par un gouvernement qui etait alle I'Acte du Manitoba. au-dela de son pouvoir. Le gouvernement neo­ Nous sommes confiants que vous, M. le president et democrate d'aujourd'hui a I'occasion revee de reparer membres du comite, n'hesiterez pas de vous y les erreurs du passe, de remettre a une population lesee prononcer en faveur. ce qui est essentiel a son epanouissement. Ne tardons Merci. pas davantage - 90 ans ont deja retarde tragiquement Marjorie Beauchemin a I' action tandis qu'elle donne encore quelques signes lle-des-Chenes de vie. le 27 Septembre 1983 La Societe franco-manitobaine a su tres bien Signed: Marjorie Beauchemin representer la population franco-manitobaine. Tout au cours des negociations, elle ne voulait qu'assurer la survie des siens. Les amendements proposes sont un SUBMISSION NO. 71 moyen de provoquer la renaissance des Manitobains MICHELE LAGIMODIERE-GAGNON d'expression franc;:aise. 11 est imperatif que l'on redonne aux Franco­ L'enchassement de l'amendement de !'article 23 de Manitobains leurs droits. J'appuie done la resolution I'Acte du Manitoba, tel que decrit dans I'accord du mois pour amender !'article 23 telle que negociee par la de mai, n'enleve rien a personne. 11 garantit, tout Societe franco-manitobaine et les gouvernements simplement, la legalite et l'egalite des Manitobains provincial et federal au mois de mai. franc;:ais. Merci. L'encMssement de I'article 23 est deja un compromis. Le gouvernement provincial ne traduira pas toutes les Signed: Mme. lrma Gauthier, La Broquerie lois et ne fera pas des fonctionnaires un bilingue sur deux. Nous aurons toujours une egalite a "temps partiel" en ce qui concerne certaines sections de l'amendement. SUBMISSION NO. 69 Nous n'avons qu'a redire l'histoire des services en JACQUES J. TRUDEAU education. M. le President, L'encMssement de !'article 23 protegera l'individu. Membres du comite, Si vous cherchez a reduire, a diluer l'accord du mois de mai, vous demontrez d'autant plus la necessite Je crois que le Manitoba devrait etre reconnu d'enchasser les droits. L'enchassement nous mettra officiellement bilingue et qu'il devrait offrir ses services davantage a l'abri de tout ce "politicaillage" revoltant, dans les deuz langues la ou le besoin se fait sentir. confus et deraisonne des dernier mois. Oui ...j'appuie !'entente negociee en mai par la L'enchassement de I'article 23 fera du Manitoba une S.F.M. et le gouvernement neo-democrate pour province juste, une province bilingue. amender !'article 23 de I'Acte du Manitoba. Signed: Michele Lagimoriere-Gagnon, Lorette, Signed: Jacques J. Trudeau, Box 333, lies des Manitoba. Cheries Entrenchment of the amendment to Section 23 of Mr. President, The Manitoba Act, as called for by a tri-party agreement Members of the Committee. in May 1983, does not abrogate or deny the rights of I feel that Manitoba should be officially recognized anybody. On the contrary, it guarantees equal and legal as a bilingual province and that a serious attempt should status for French Manitobans. be made to provide public services in both languages Entrenchment of the May amendments represent a where there is a need. compromise. The province will not need to translate all I therefore support the agreement negotiated last May statutes. lt will translate the necessary ones over a 10- between the Societe Franco-Manitobaine and the year period. lt will not impose complete bilingualism

1180 Tuesday, 4 October, 1983

upon the Civil Service. French-speaking Manitobans ete commise et elle doit etre rectifiee. On ne demande will maintain an equal status on a part-time basis under pas !'opinion des gens au sujet d'un certain cas devant certain subsections of the amendment. One has to look les tribunaux. Pourquoi alors veut-on sonder I' opinion at the history of the development of French education manitobaine avant de !rancher une question avant tout services for a study on the inequities of services. legale. Entrenchment of Section 23 protects the individual. Troisiemement, je souhaite que I'on remarque surtout If you seek to weaken the amendment or eliminate it les points positifs d'une province manitobaine altogether, you further demonstrate the need for officiellement bilingue. Cela aiderait certainement le entrenchment of rights. Entrenchment will shelter us in Canada a demeurer le beau pays qu'il est. Et puis, quel the future from the ridiculous, misguided and mean signe encourageant pour les nombreuses minorites du politicking witnesses during the past months. pays, de savoir que la minorite officielle du Manitoba Entrenchment of Section 23, as proposed in May, a gain de cause dans le retablissement de ses droits. will make Manitoba a truly just, a truly bilingual province. Tout .;a pour vous dire que j'appuie la resolution negociee au mois de mai pour amender !'article 23 de Signed: Michele Lagimodiere-Gagnon, Lorette, I'Acte du Manitoba. Manitoba. Me rei.

SUBMISSION NO. 72 SUBMISSION No. 74 LA LIGUE SAINT-GERARD DE LA RAYMONDE GRAHAM BROQUERIE M. le president, membres du comite. M. le president, membres du comite. Les fondateurs du Manitoba, qui revaient d'un pays Au nom de la Ligue Saint-Gerard de La Broquerie, bilingue, se trouveraient certainement tout comme moi, j'aimerais vous laisser savoir comment nous sommes d'ailleurs, confus et consternes par l'ampleur que semble tiers d'etre Manitobains fran.;;ais. prendre cette epineuse question aujourd'hui. Si on Nous sommes tiers de not re langue, de not re culture, dressait un bref historique du passe, qui pourrait nier de nos traditions. que notre belle province etait destinee a devenir bilingue! Nous remercions nos parents et grands-parents de Le gouvernement provincial actuel, conscient de la nous avoir legue ce riche heritage. realite du pays s'apprete a rendre justice a un peuple Nous voulons donner a nos enfants et petits-enfants si souvent opprime et brime dans leurs droits, par 90 la chance de vivre en franco-manitobains. ans de gouvernements irresponsables. Nos gouvernants Nous esperons que notre drapeau franco-manitobain au pouvoir ont maintenant la chance unique de reparer continue a embellir notre province pendant de longues les torts faits au peuple canadien-fran.;;ais, et ainsi generations a venir. redonner au Manitoba, non seulement son vrai visage M. le president, membres du comite, c'est pour cela d'autrefois mais bien plus, une place enviable au sein que nous appuyons avec conviction la resolution pour de la Confederation. Le retablissement des droits des amender I' article 23 de I'Acte du Manitoba, telle qu'elle francophones est indeniablement la seule solution si a ete negociee au mois de mai entre le gouvernement nous desirons, pour nos enfants une province ou regnera du Manitoba et la Societe franco-manitobaine. paix, tolerance et prosperite. Merci. M. le president, je m'explique mal la tenue d'audiences Antoinette Bissonnette, Rose-Marie Nadeau, Gisele publiques. qui pour moi, sont perte de temps, d'argent Gauthier, Lorraine Dumesnil, Diane Turenne, Michelle et d'energie. C'est pour donner au public la chance de Seidler et Gisele Tetrault. s'exprimer, nous dit-on; cependant, elles nous auront servi bien plus a favoriser d'autres dechirures, qu'a !'unite. Le pays tout entier regarde l'oeil attentif, et SUBMISSION NO. 73 surveille de pres, ce qui se passe chez nous. Tous les GEORGETTE GERARDY, AU NOM DU jours nous leurs montrons not re vrai visage de citoyens COMITE CUL TUREL DE SAINT-LABRE hostiles et intolerants; ces attributs sont loin de faire M. le president, membres du comite. l'orgueil d'un peuple qui se dit amical. Cessons done J'aimerais souligner quelques points au sujet du debat nos luttes fratricides, et conservons done nos energies qui fait rage depuis que le gouvernement de la province a travailler a retablir la justice, solution ideale et unique entend amender !'article 23 de I'Acte du Manitoba. au maintien de la paix au pays. Les erreurs du passe Premierement, je ne sais pas si les medias sont sont a jamais gravees dans le coeur des Canadiens responsables, mais il me semble qu'on est en train de fran.;;ais fideles a leur devise. L'amendement a !'article faire beaucoup de bruit pour peu de chose. Les 23 de I'Acte du Manitoba, s'avere essentiel si nous manchettes, les editoriaux, les lettres aux redacteurs, voulons eviter que la situation de deteriore a un tel des feuillets, des petitions et meme ces audiences point, que la tournure des evenements prenne des publiques. proportions incontrolables. Que vise l'amendement de I'Acte du Manitoba, sinon M. le president, membres du comite, j'aimerais un certain epanouissement de la vie fran.;;aise au souligner ici que l'avenir sourit aux audacieux, et que Manitoba? Et je ne vois toujours pas comment cet des perspectives nouvelles s'ouvrent a un Manitoba epanouissement chez 5 pour cent de la population peut bilingue, qui fera l'envie du Canada tout entier. C'est menacer la majorite. pour des raisons historiques, mais encore bien plus, Deuxiemement, au sujet de ces audiences publiques, c'est pour des raisons de droits humains, que j'appuie je ne crois pas qu'elles soient un bien. Une injustice a la resolution pour amender !'article 23 de I'Acte du

1181 Tuesday, 4 October, 1983

Manitoba telle que negociee au mois de mai par la M. le president, membres du comite. Societe franco-manitobaine et le gouvernement du Je desire enoncer quelques idees dont on devrait Manitoba. tenir compte lorsqu'on decide si l'on doit appuyer ou Signed: Raymonde Graham non les amendements proposes a !'article 23 de I'Acte du Manitoba. Premierement, il taut retenir le fait que la loi qui a SUBMISSION NO. 75 interdit l'usage du franvais devant les tribunaux et au gouvernement a ete declaree anticonstitutionnelle. A SR THERESE CLOUTIER, s.j.m. partir de ce fait, je ne peux pas m'expliquer toute M. le president, membres du comite. !'hesitation du gouvernement et !'opposition d'une La paroisse de Sainte-Anne a celebre, le mois dernier, grande partie de la population. Je ne peux comprendre le centenaire de l'arrivee des Soeurs Grises a Sainte­ que I' on refuse de rectifier une loi "illegale". L'opposition Anne-des-Chenes. Elles sont venues en 1883 assumer que I' on manifeste depasse les bornes du raisonnement. le role d'educatrices aupres des enfants d'age scolaire Si l'on n'elimine pas les lois "illegales", quelle valeur et de collaboratrices avec les parents en tout ce qui notre systeme judiciaire peut-il avoir? Si l'on continue touchait la vie culturelle, sociale et religieuse. Elles y a reconnaitre cette loi qui n'est pas legale, on doit sont encore et se sentent bien solidaires avec leur remettre en question notre societe, notre gouvernement 11 concitoyens d'aujourd'hui. et toutes nos institutions. va de soi que les fondements Au cours des cent annees ecoulees, elles ont participe de not re civilisation elle-meme s'ecrouleraient. La gravite d'une telle situation fait peur. 11 taut regler chez nous a toutes les activites et a tous les efforts pour les problemes de langues officielles et il nous le faut l'avancement et la sauvegarde des valeurs cheres aux faire sans plus de delai. paroissiens et a toutes les luttes qui ont ete necessaires M. le president, membres du comite, j'accorde mon pour conserver ces memes droits lorsqu'une majorite appui a la resolution negociee au mois de mai pour aveugle et defiante voulait les en priver. amender !'article 23 de I'Acte du Manitoba. Je ne peux En mai cette annee, apres de longues deliberations, pas faire autrement. il fut resolu que I'article 23 de I'Acte du Manitoba serait Merci! amende. Nous avons cru alors que finalement, le gouvernement se montrerait juste a l'endroit de sa Signed: Denise J. Perron and Georges G. Perron minorite de langue officielle. Malheureusement, le gouvernement a depose des modifications le 6 septembre; si celles-ci etaient integrees au projet SUBMISSION NO. 81 d'amendement, cela rendrait I'entente negociee en mai USE ET ROBERTE BOILY quasiment banale. M. le president, membres du comite. 11 taut done encore une fois affirmer not re volonte de Une province bilingue dans un pays bilingue . . . Quoi defendre nos droits. C'est pourquoi je veux exprimer de si complique? Quoi de si simple? Encore une fois, ma solidarite avec tous ceux qui desirent que !'article les etres humains s'aveuglent, construisent des tours 23 de I'Acte du Manitoba soit amende tel que negocie de Babel et s'amusent gravement a s'engueuler. La au mois de mai entre le gouvernement du Manitoba, piu part de ces braves gens se disent chretien(ne)s; leur le gouvernement federal et la Societe franco­ code moral est supposement d'aimer leur prochain. manitobaine. Pauvre Manitoba pharisaique! Merci. Pour en venir aux details concrets, l'historique de cette province montre sans equivoque qu'une grave Signed: S. Therese Cloutier s.j.m., Sainte-Anne des injustice fut commise en 1890 envers les resident(e)s Chenes, Manitoba manitobain(e)s de langue franvaise. Au mois de mai dernier (soit 93 ans plus tard), le gouvernement neo­ democrate a essaye dans la mesure du possible de SUBMISSIONS NO. 76, 77, 78 and 79 reparer le tort dans une entente avec la Societe franco­ THERESE BOUCHARD, ANDRE manitobaine. Helas, il ne s'agit pas ici d·un conte de PLAMONDON, SR ZELIE RUEST ET LUCIE fee qui fin it bien car cette entente n'a fait que re-ani mer DUPUIS des vieilles chicanes et engendrer des nouvelles bagarres. Des tas de faux-problemes ont surgi, crees M. le president, membres du comite. d'une hyperemotivite deplorable. 11 est triste de constater Je n'ai qu'une seule chose a affirmer devant vous que dans notre province, les habitant(e)s ne veulent aujourd'hui. J'appuie entierement la resolution pour pas vivre en harmonie. De telles attitudes negatives ne amender !'article 23 de I'Acte du Manitoba telle qu'elle peuvent que mener a un monde qui s'autodetruira plus a ete negociee au mois de mai dernier entre les tot que lard, arme comme il l'est jusqu'aux dents, avec gouvernements provincial et federal et la SFM. des armes nucleaires. 11 n'y a rien a negocier; ce sont des droits. ea nous Enfin, le but de ce memoire, M. le president et revient en justice. C'est tout l'paquet qu'il nous taut. membres du comite, est d'affirmer mon appui pour la On est 60 000 Franco-Manitobains! Faut leur parler! resolution qui a ete negociee au mois de mai dernier Merci. pour amender !'article 23 de I'Acte du Manitoba - tout en esperant que les habitant(e)s de cette province apprendront un jour a vivre ensemble dans une felicite SUBMISSION NO. 80 linguistique, ou la langue franvaise et la langue anglaise DENISE J. PERRON ET GEORGES G. seront officiellement reconnues - et cela de bonne grace. PERRON

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SUBMISSION NO. 82 c'est avec conviction que nous venons appuyer la CECILE BERARD resolution negociee en mai dernier par la Societe franco­ M. le president, membres du comite. manitobaine avec le gouvernement Pawley pour Je suis Cecile Berard et je represente la Ligue feminine amender !'article 23 de I'Acte du Manitoba. ca�holique - section lle-des-Chenes. Nous croyons fermement qu'il est grand temps de Etant fieres de notre heritage et soucieuses qu'un de nos objectifs est de promouvoir la langue et la culture rectifier les injustices commises il y a plus de 90 ans. fran<;aise dans nos foyers et dans notre communaute, Merci! Dear Carmen DePape,

SUBMISSION NO. 83 I asked to express my view and likely the view of thousands, if the truth were known, according to people MRS. SYL VIA MciNNES, Ste. An ne, Manitoba I know and have talked to. Many people are, like myself, Clerk of Committees, very hesitant to speak up when we are invited via briefs - many are at work and no time to get involved, etc.­ I would like to present my view on the bilingual to state our opinion. I was brought up in Canada where question. all the schooling I have came from, and we were taught I would like to state clearly that I am against the if you have complaints you should speak through your province being bilingual because of the following reaons: MLA and MP at Ottawa. Our representatives at City 1. Without much effort a court room could be Hall, Fort Garry South, and Ottawa never hear me, I made available, staffed with people who have might as well talk to the wall. Hence I write at your kind studied in several languages, to serve many invitation to express my views and why I think as I do, people instead of just French. 2. Most importantly I don't feel that there are after spending all but seven-and-a-half years of my any significant amount of French people who childhood in Manitoba. will make use of anything that will be made Firstly, I am a non-hyphenated Canadian - no French­ available to them. There is no way the cost Canadian nor German-Canadian, nor Ukrainian­ can even compare with the need which should Canadian, nor Polish Canadian. I am thankful to be a be a major consideration. Canadian because when my parents and six of us young 3. French is not the largest minority group, just siblings left Norway in 1928 to make Canada our home the loudest; other groups are proud of who we had a very poor chance of making a living in the they are. Why must we give grease to the land God had us born in. I have no quarrel with the noisy wheel, when all it needs is fixing, because beautiful country God gave us for our homeland, but it is causing its own noise. truly we had so little connection with Norway because 4. I am, as a German and Scottish background, we were so poor in Canada too, and our relatives in sick and tired of reading French on all my Norway were so poor that none could afford postage groceries, in all the comments in the stamps on either side of the ocean, and we were newspapers and especially having it forced fortunate to send greetings at Christmas. We, family of on my children in school. Where is my freedom six children, and mother and father, were sent out to to teach my children my language, instead of the Peninsula School District 907 where we had a the taxpayers money forcing everyone to wonderful teacher who recommended that I study speak a language they might not want? Where does my free agency start? French, instead of Latin, which was a choice those days. 5. The "feud," which it actually is if you'll just I studied French by correspondence in Grade 9 and admit it, has gone on long enough and the Grade 10. I took French from an English high school money wasted on this could be used on a teacher in Grade 11 and 12. But without a word of a much more pressing area, e.g. training judges lie, I wish I had taken Latin when I look back over 62 to give much stiffer sentences to lawbreakers years of living because I have never made use of, nor so that it is the criminal who is afraid to commit chance to speak, French. The district where we grew the crime, instead of us the public who are up was composed of nothing but English, Irish and Scots afraid to walk the streets. Now really, which except for a few Belgium farmers, too, far away to have is more pressing - crime or the whole of any influence on us, except for one girl, at my school, Canada being forced into reading French food and a few years only she attended. labels and brainwashing our children to feel The reason I say I wish I had taken Latin is because they'll never succeed if they didn't learn their I have no Latin roots of the English language. My French in school? husband studied French as well as Latin. I can ask him There are several more reasons but these will suffice. the meaning of any English word almost, and ask, what I would rather my tax money be spent on the needy does this word mean. He answers: "That word comes - not the greedy! Let's get all these committees helping from the Latin root .... " Right away, the meaning instead of stirring up new feuds. comes clear. Therefore, I say I wish I had studied Latin Thank you for your time. instead of French (preferably both) as then I would Mrs. Sylvia Mclnnes understand the English language with much more knowledge and understanding. I want to make it clear that in my day no one was SUBMISSION NO. 84 prejudiced in any way about the French people anymore MRS. J.L. ASTA ASSELSTINE than others as you can see by what I have already said. WORLD WOMEN'S CHRISTIAN My question is: If the Federal Government and TEMPERANCE UNION Provincial Government had wanted us to speak French

1183 Tuesday, 4 October, 1983 so much why did they not send us French-speaking (Upper and Lower Canada - Quebec and Ontario) for teachers for our French lessons? My generation had France. Then 1763 Canada became English. 1791 I no control of that. Why should taxpayers today be paying believe was the date that divided Canada into Upper for French all over Manitoba now when the French and Lower Canada. should have come to Manitoba when the English and NOTE: The three joined maple leafs represent all Scots and Irish and some USA citizens came to other nationalities in Canada, all except Manitoba as pioneers? it was much easier to remain Indians and Eskimos were represented in our in Quebec, no doubt, and the Quebec Canadians chose old flag. not to blaze the pioneer path in building up Manitoba, There was no Manitoba then, only Quebec and like the pioneers from Ontario actually did (build up Ontario. In 1867, there was Confederation, but no Manitoba). Manitoba in existence yet, only New Brunswick, Nova Manitoba was merely a postage stamp size province Scotia, and Quebec and Ontario. Therefore, I can't see in 1870. If fact, how big was Manitoba in 1763 when why government is pushing French in Manitoba who General Wolfe fought General Montcalm in The Plains have only about 4 to 6 percent French population in of Abraham? Much smaller than a postage-stamp 1983. province. Where were our French teachers then? You say the law should entrench "French." Why, I Certainly not in Manitoba where I grew up a Canadian. ask, when there is no demand for French? I prefer good Again, when my parents came to Canada they brought proper English and no French providing all people are their six children to an English-speaking country. My taught proper English instead of slang English. father had some knowledge of English previously, May I also tell of my personal experience with a French therefore, my father wanted to come to an English­ hairdresser from Paris. As she did my hair, whe said speaking country, not French, or we would have gone she wished there were French-speaking people in to settle in the Province of Quebec. As it was, after two Winnipeg. I hastily said, "Oh, we have French people. weeks an Immigration Hall here in Winnipeg the St. Boniface has many French-speaking people. "But government authorities of his time tried to send us to I can't understand them," she said, "they speak Peace River county. My father asked about schools differently." Again, I cannot but comment, why all this because of his school-age children, twins one-and-a­ rush to learn French when even the French-speaking half years, oldest about 11 years. He chose Manitoba citizens in Winnipeg cannot understand France's because there was a country school three miles from language? the farm which he was able to rent for 10 years. We One thing is plain, either government must help every sang "0 Canada" each morning, and "God Save our country's language for immigrants to Canada who King" (now Queen) and we had to stand at attention, become citizens or else carry on as we did for the first not slouch like I see today, by adults even. it's a disgrace 100 years. French language and Hebrew will come only the way citizens of Canada don't even know enough to as we work towards it and are willing to pay for our sing or stand at attention, showing respect for God, French, Polish, Ukrainian or any other language. Some home and country, and with the thousands of new people say speak "Esperanto." Why bother, when we citizens coming from all over the world, it's time we and already have English? Let's improve our English annd government taught them that very thing, respect for not allow English to deteriorate in words and grammar Canada! and vulgarities which is happening. If new immigrants want to learn their own native Recommendations: language, they should have it as their forefathers did 1. Let's try for more French and Latin of which it. Jewish schools support themselves, and French the English language is composed. schools likewise if they do not like public schools. How 2. Let's invite good, best, teachers from Quebec can taxpayers pay for the teaching of French, Hebrew, to speak acceptable French so we can speak Polish, German, Ukrainian and every country's language good French in France, coming to Canada? Taxpayers should never be forced 3. and in all French-speaking colonies to have to speak all languages, unless they pay for it 4. and speak good English in all English-speaking themselves, because I want to develop a Canadian colonies or common wealth. identity, not a Norse Canadian - sounds wrong to me. 5. And let each other country, except the Native Besides well will become ghettos here in Canada, Indians, start their own language schools another Babe!. I believe we should prevent another without government (Canadian funds). Babe!. 6. But let the Canadian Government revive our Firstly, the cost is prohibitive for Canada who is so Native Indian language which of the 300 Indian far in debt already. What an inheritance for our children! languages of North America must be decided I feel like a foreigner now in my own Canada, Ever on instead of forcing French on all of Canada. since our wonderful old flag "the Canadian Ensign .. was After all, the Indians have no place to call home except taken away from us (my three brothers were in the army Canada. Their 300 languages have almost all and they used that meanful Canadian Ensign). lt disappeared, not to mention Eskimos. If the French in represented "Canada," and that flag had meaning, right Manitoba want to revive French they can find their roots to the core, right to the Cross of St. Andrew of Scotland, in France, and I can still find mine in Norway if I wish who was Jesus' disciple, St. Patrick, who brought to. Christianity from Gaul, France - or was it Normandy, 7. Therefore, my strong recommendation is for France - I can't remember exactly. The the Cross of countries to be so selfish and self-centred and St. George, depicting his fight against all things evil. let's build up Canada. When all Indians of Thus the fleur-de-lis represented the French Canadians Canada are satisfied reasonably so will all the who, through Jacques Cartier 1534, claimed Canada poor white people. My folks were very poor,

1184 Tuesday, 4 October, 1983

much below poverty line via today's standards. MESSAGE TO ENGLISH PROTESTANTS There is no harm in being poor as long as CANADA'S CENTENNIAL PRAYER one has faith in self-respect for self, conficence in self, and work for God and home and every We ask for understanding and sympathy land. For clear vision and sensitivity Indian people have a lot to learn about the white For wisdom and selflessness invaders like Cartier who took Canada for the French For strength and courage in 1534. That was the custom of those times. 1763 That we may succeed in our awesome task General Wolfe took Canada for England. it's time To dignify each one in our land To give him freedom, right and opportunity French Quebec and English Canada shook hands and To enrich his material, cultural and spiritual united to restore the Indian race, what is left of it. mode of life When that day comes there will be peace on earth - spiritual mode of life must come first - for there are thousands of poor whites like my family To create unity in the land were in the dirty 30's when there were no family Forever and ever allowance cheques, nor welfare, nor medical care, or Amen electricity, nor electric stoves, lights, nor refrigerators. People don't know what poverty is today. What we The Lord's Prayer tells us to pray, Jesus own words: need is to train all parents and children to become Our Father, who art in heaven responsible for their actions and live according to Hallowed by Thy name. their means, and not overspend keeping up to the Thy Kingdom come Jones's, etc. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. 8. Each person is unique and the first thing I Therefore we must think and act as if we really are recommend is to give all religions a chance in heaven, and what causes so much crime and poverty to grow in the religion of our choice. lt was a and violence and hate often today? - alcohol and most beautiful sight to go through Montreal tobacco, drugs, quarreling, bilingualism - and Jesus and Quebec and see those huge tall church asked us to pray: spires. What a wonderful sight to see that "Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our here are the churches speaking the word of trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against God, the greatest inheritance on earth to share us," - French and English and bilingualism, etc.- "and with our children. Oh that every child could lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil" - be taught God's word as Jesus told us: "Do what is alcohol, tobacco and drugs but evil when they you love me?" Jesus asked. "Yes," was the kill thousands of youth on highways, divorce, poverty disciples' answer. "Then feed my lambs." alcoholism, casinos, gambling makes poor poorer, These are our dear little children being abortions, murders - "For Thine is the kingdom, the murdered by their own mothers. How sad! power and the glory forever and ever. Amen." Then Jesus asked again: "Do you love me?" So the last recommendation is let us help to make "Yes," again was the reply. "Then feed my our Lord's Prayer come true. We can if we will. lambs." How concerned God is for all his children, all his lambs. Again Jesus asked: "Do you love me?" Again, came answer, "You SUBMISSION NO. 85 know I love you." "Then feed my sheep," said THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT DISTRICT OF Jesus. REYNOlDS Parents must have the knowledge of God and Jesus and be taught how to live. How can children follow September 28th, 1983 Christ if their parents don't know Jesus and His Word? This is the burning questions. Is French language the Ms. Carman De Pape priority for our French and English brothers and Clerk of the Legislative office sisters, or is it Christ? Room 251 Yours, In His Service. Legislative Buildings Mrs. J. L. (Asta) Asselstine R.N. (Mother of 5, Grandma Winnipeg, Manitoba of 3) R3C OV8 Dear Ms. De Pape: MESSAGE TO FRENCH CATHOLICS RE: Public Hearings on proposed Bilingual Please end my brief re bilingualism on these two amendments to the Constitution of Manitoba important messages copied from the stone walls of the Peace Chapel at Peace Gardens - see booklet enclosed. Reeve Marlene Puzianowski of The Local Government District of Reynolds was to appear at the public hearing "For it is you who are to receive the Torch from in Ste. Anne on September 27th, 1983 per attached the hands of your elders and to live in the world authorizing Resolution 264/83 of Council. at the period of the most gigantic transformations Unfortunately, our Reeve was unable to attend and ever realized in its history. lt is you, who are requested me to ensure that the enclosed documents receiving the best of the example of your were submitted to the Chairman of the Committee, Andy teachers, are to form the society of tomorrow. Anstett, MLA. You will either save yourselves or you will perish Accordingly, I have enclosed 15 copies of Resolution with it." Vatican I No. 155/83, Resolution No. 263/83 and Resolution No.

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277/83 of council for Distribution to members of the Manitoba, the Attorney General for the Province of committee. Manitoba, and the President of the Union of Manitoba Resolution No. 155/83 is self-explanatory and certified Municipalities. copies were forwarded as directed by the resolution. CARRIED. Resolution No. 263/83 requests that a referendum be held in our province to determine the acceptability Certified to be a true and correct copy ot Resolution of Section 23 of The Manitoba Act. The Council felt No. 155/83 of The Local Government District of that the Provincial Government should conduct such Reynolds. Richard A. Andries - Resident Administrator. an undertaking. Resolution No. 277/83 authorizes the conducting of Chairman: M. Puzianowski a referendum in the local jurisdiction to determine the opinion of the electorate. RESOLUTION FORM Thank you for giving the council of The Local The Local Government District of Reynolds Government District of Reynolds this opportunity to go on record. September 13th, 1983

Yours truly, Moved by Councillor: Joe Lozinski Seconded by Councillor: John T. Bartley. Richard A. Andries Resident Administrator Resolved, that a referendum be held in the Province of Manitoba to determine the acceptability of Section 23 cc. Reeve Marlene Puzianowski of The Manitoba Act.

CARRiED RESOLUTION FORM Certified to be a true and correct copy of Resolution THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT DISTRICT OF No. 263/83 of The Local Government District of REYNOLDS Reynolds. R. A. Andries, Resident Administrator.

September 13, 1983 Chairman: M. Puzianowski

Moved by Councillor: D. Grouette RESOLUTION FORM Seconded by Councillor: Alex Opyc The Local Government District of Reynolds Resolved, that attendance and expenses for M. Puzianowski to hearing on proposed Bilingual September 20th, 1983 amendments in Ste. Anne on September 27th, 1983 Moved by Councillor: D. Alien be approved. CARRIED Seconded by Councillor: John T. Bartley Certified to be a true and correct copy of Resolution Resolved, that a referendum be conducted on October No. 264/83 of The Local Government District of 26th, 1983 with the following question for the electorate: Reynolds- Richard A. Andries, Resident Administrator. Do you favour the proposal by the Government of Chairman: M. Puzianowski Manitoba to amend our Constitution to make English and French the official languages of Manitoba and to RESOLUTION FORM entrench in our Constitution the right to receive services The Local Government District of Reynolds in French as well as in English from designated offices of Provincial Government departments, boards and June 14th, 1983 agencies?

Moved by Councillor: D. Grouette Yes or No CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY. Seconded by Councillor: D. Alien Certified to be a true and correct copy of Resolution Whereas the Provincial Government has agreed with No. 277/83 of The Local Government District of the Federal Government and the Franco-Manitoban Reynolds. Richard A. Andries, Resident Administrator. Society that the Province of Manitoba be declared a Bilingual Province, Chairman: M. Puzianowski

And Whereas approximately Sixty Thousand residents of French background represents a small percentage SUBMISSION NO. 86 of the total population of more than a million SUBMISSION BY THE LOCAL Manitobans, GOVERNMENT DISTRICT Now Therfore Be lt Resolved that any declaration of OF STUARTBURN TO THE STANDING Manitoba as a Bilingual Province be repealed forthwith, COMMITTEE ON and further that a public referendum of the electorate PRIVILEGES AND ELECTIONS be conducted to determine whether or not such a COMMITTEE declaration is democratically acceptable to the majority of Manitobans and further that a copy of this resolution RE: AMENDING SECTION 23 OF THE be forwarded to the Premier for the Province of MANITOBA ACT

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The Council of the Local Government District of (i The Bilodeau case be allowed to proceed. Stuartburn wish to take the opportunity to make known (ii The Provincial Govenment immediately announce to the Committee its concerns over proposed changes and undertake a greater effort to comply with the to The Manitoba Act. translation requirements of the Forest decision, as 11 is our understanding the current debate about required under the original acts setting out French French language in Manitoba arose as a result of Roger Language Rights with regard to the Legislature and Bilodeau bringing action against the government the courts. because the laws of Manitoba were not translated into (iii) That new "open" discussions take place with French French. 11 is unfortunate such an over-reaction has taken groups and individuals, not the Federal Government, place. lt is our view that the present government's with a view to providing increased French Language intention to greatly widen and entrench in the Services of a specific nature in specific geographic Constitution the use of French far exceeds anything areas. Section 23 of the Manitoba Act ever required or Reasons: suggested. (i) The agreement reached, in secret negotiations, The cost of implementing increased French services involved only three parties. The Attorney-General will be staggering at a time when economic growth is has stated that the agreed intent is to exclude all nil. This duplication of printing is not to be taken lightly, school boards and municipalities from legal never mind costs paid to personnel to do the actual obligations of the agreement. If this is the case, translating of our laws. 11 appears to be a totally then the wording of the agreement should have unnecessary expense for a few people that form only been more specific, even to specify the exclusions. approximately 5 percent of the population of Manitoba. The SFM and the Federal Government should have Very few utilize any of the French services that presently no objections to this if they agreed with the Attorney­ exist, never mind think about increasing them. General's understanding of the agreement. The Further, we would point out that language rights wording of the agreement should have left no doubt should not be handled by Courts. Any change that whatsoever as to which government bodies were becomes written into the Constitution means future covered by the agreement and the chance of wider generations won't be able to change it. Manitoba interpretations by the courts absolutely eliminated. residents won't be able to have any say in their future (ii) The Provincial Government I am sure recognizes a regarding bilingual services if these rights are moral obligation to treat minority ethnic groups entrenched - if the courts say civil servants, school equally - especially those which are larger than the trustees, councillors, etc., have to be French and English, French community in numbers. I have no doubt that the province will have to comply. This is very unfortunate the strong expressions of support for the agreement because we will be, in effect, losing our democratic right that have recently come from non-French ethnic to freedom of expression and, also, our power to govern groups are basically selfish in nature. There is through the legislative system. nothing wrong in showing such selfishness. We urge this Government to step back and look at However, the committee must ask itself whether what is happening at these public hearings - the province can afford to meet the expectations communities are being split and ill-will is being created. for similar schooling and services which will Feelings are being brought forth that should have died subsequently be demanded by all other ethnic years ago. Endeavouring to make Canada bilingual is groups if the agreement is passed as a constitutional a step backward and will be too cumbersome to ever amendment. I have no doubt that the Federal Liberal succeed. Where is our respect for all the other ethnic Government is encouraging the vocalness of ethnic groups that helped establish Manitoba and Canada? minorities in this situation. However, it is the Unity will never come about until we become Canadians Provincial Government which will later either have and a bilingual system will not create unity. Do not let to turn down such requests, or alternatively find government erode any more of our freedoms; this is the necessary finances to pay for them. just one more step towards "Big Brother" taking over (iii) The wording of the agreement should have been totally. more specific in terms. Words such as "central" and "where numbers warrant" are incredibly vague SUBMISSION NO. 87 and literally invite court challenges. As we have seen, D. NELSON the Trudeau Government is extremely devious and underhanded. As examples I refer you to the 81 Stacey Bay transcripts of proceedings in the Senate on The Winnipeg, R2K 3V4 Canada Day Act; to the way in which the Minister September 28th, 1983 of Transport is preventing public information on the emergency landing of the A. C. jet at Gimli, and the To Members of the Committee: absolute lack of any pressure on Quebec for repeal The resolution of a problem created by a court of its almost fascist acts regulating business 11 challenge should not be the entrenchment of a loosely language and signs. is an absolute certainty that worded constitutional amendment which will, in the the Trudeau Government will continue to finance the further court challenges of the SFM, etc., to all longer term, create a far greater number of court legislation setting out French language rights in challenges with more widely reaching financial Manitoba with the purpose of making the province implications for provincial taxpayers. and municipalities bilingual in all respects - much Recommendations: further than the intent of the agreement. Any

1187 Tuesday, 4 October, 1983

amendment must not therfore by its vagueness their French majority, possibly have the right under invite such court challenges. In such a situation, we democratic process to have French official with language are much safer to let the Bilodeau case proceed. rights. This would be the resul! if we in Canada gave the Respectfully submitted, provinces the right to determine their own destiny. D. Nelson Otherwise, if the Federal Government is going to speak honestly and justly for all of Canada, and endeavour to operate under democratic process, it has to be one SUBMISSION NO. 88 official language with language rights in our good ROSS MEGGISON country. Let us not permit a few troublemakers to destroy our To the Standing Committee on the amending of the good country. Let us not be so politically-bound we are Constitution. no earthly good. In speaking to you today in regard to the issue we I spent a portion of my life serving Her Majesty's in Manitoba are confronted with, I would like to express forces defending our country and helping restore not only my sentiments on this issue but those of the freedom and peace to countries in Europe, France being many I have talked to. To endeavour to impose one. And I don't appreciate the government of our something on the people of our province to benefit a country permitting a few troublemakers in a minority few or a small minority at the expense of the many or group to destroy our country. As times change, laws the majority "is wrong." have to be changed if we are going to maintain justice The question I ask not only myself, and not just in a changing world. Manitobans, but every Canadian, do we stand for what Respectfully submitted by, Ross Meggison, is right or what is wrong? What is just or what is unjust? Goodlands, Manitoba. What is good for the many or what is good for the few? P.S. To the Legislative Committee on this issue, it will Because sometimes what is right for one is not right be extremely dangerous to proceed with this issue. We for another. We have to resort to the democratic way could find ourselves involved in a revolution, caused of making decisions. (A way which has proven itself to by a government who are acting very childish, to say be the fairer and the better way over the years) I don't the least. know who is responsible or, more to the point, irresponsible for introducing this issue at this time. They certainly did not take into consideration the welfare of SUBMISSION NO. 89 the many and the goodwill in a province, or it would R.M. OF MORRIS not have been introduced. There never has been a time when not only our Proposed Bilingual Amendments to the Constitution of Manitoba Province but our good Canadian country is Manitoba in greater need of unity, and we cannot expect to achieve The Rural Municipality of Morris is not opposed to this by imposing something on our people that a large bilingualism, but is opposed to Bill 23, which would majority do not want. entrench French Language Services into many areas. "United we stand. Divided we fall." lt would seem We are opposed for the following reasons: ironic and really extremely dangerous for the government of a province to endeavour to improve 1. This is a controversial issue and to proceed in this relations with the Federal Government at the expense direction would result in causing division amongst of the great majoriy of the people of that province. A the people of this municipality, who have lived responsible government should be going to bat for the together in harmony the past 100 years. In our majority of the people they represent, not catering to municipality, we have never had any language a small minority. difficulties in providing services. Therefore there is On principle alone, this issue is wrong. We are having no need for changes. problems today meeting the expenses of the necessary 2. The cost factor of such a program of translation and without even entertaining the ridiculous. We are told duplication of services is prohibitive in relation to the Federal Government is paying a portion of the cost the number of people it would serve. In these times of this proposed, unwanted legislation. Any waste of of restraint, we feel the money should not be spent, the taxpayers' dollars is wrong. and that the $400,000 provided would be just a drop I was unable to give this presentation in Brandon on in the bucket of what would be required for the future. Monday the 19th for two reasons. No. 1, there were a Once this is enforced, then we would be committed lot of briefs and presentations ahead of me. No. 2, it to spending money regardless of cost. did appear to me that the intent of the Legislature's representatives was to waste as much time as possible. 3. Entrenchment of French Language Services into the Russell Doern's paper, Your view. "What ethnic Constitution as required in Bill 23 would be opening support" is a true picture of the language situation today. many jobs in government services that would be available to bilingual persons only. This is creating If the French were a majority, then we should have one a case for unequal opportunity, as all these top official French language with language rights as is positions would not be available to persons speaking spelled out in Mr. Doern's paper. lt just has to be one English or any other language, other than French. official English language with language rights in Manitoba, and should be the same in every other In conclusion, we of the Rural Municipality of Morris Canadian province but Quebec where they, because of believe that French language rights should be

1188 Tuesday, 4 0ctober, 1983 maintained as spelled out in The Manitoba Act, which not even all statutes since the Forest decision was says, both French and English shall be languages of handed down have been introduced in both languages debate and record in the Legislature, and either or been translated into French. language may be used in court. This would not mean The official opposition, in its fight against the all the laws need be translated immediately, but just amendment, has stressed that there is no constitutional as the need arises. If the Provincial Government is imperative, either for the entrenchment, or even the determined to follow this direction, all the people of the mere provision of government services in French. This province should be allowed to declare and voice their is true enough, but the impression that all too many opinion in a provincial referendum on a matter that is Manitobans have been left with is that the opposition going to affect everyone in Manitoba. is in fact against the provision of such government Prepared by the Council of the Rural Municipality of services. This impression is a mistaken one. When the Morris. Conservative opposition under Mr. Lyon was the government, following the policies of previous administrations, it opted to carry on and indeed broaden SUBMISSION NO. 90 the program of providing limited government services DEPT. OF COMMUNITY RELATIONS in French. it did so because, in Mr. Lyon's words, it was the "honourable" thing to do and Mr. Lyon and WINNIPEG JEWISH COMMUNITY COUNCIL his party are to be commended for having done it. Whenever a community is presented with an issue of This policy, consistently pursued by a number of importance, as our province has been with the proposed administrations of varying ideological persuasion, begs amendment to Section 23 of The Manitoba Act, it is the question of why it was honourable. it was honourable not unexpected that there be strong differences of we believe because, first of all, it was true to the spirit, opinion and that these be passionately argued. In such if not the letter, of the 1870 Accord. Section 23 of The a situation it is well for the collectivity to remember that Manitoba Act calls for French and English to be the how a matter is argued can be as important as what it languages of the Legislature, legislation and the courts. is one is arguing about. If the debate is marked by To our mind, the intent was that both linguistic groups civility and respect for opposing views, it cannot but in the province would have access to key governmental prove to be a healthy experience of which all Manitobans institutions in either language. Since 1870 the scope of can be proud, and the province would emerge more government has broadened considerably. If successive strengthened and united. If the debate brings to the Manitoba Governments were to remain true to the spirit fore matters extraneous to the heart of the discussion, of the Accord, they had to see fit to provide limited and is marred by ad hominem attacks and innuendo, government French Language Services in areas other it can only serve as a source to shame, weaken, and than those specified in Section 23. divide us. The policy was also honourable because the various Manitoba Governments all had a clear sense that The In debating the proposed amendment to Section 23, Official Language Act of 1890 perpetrated and too many of those in favour have tended too easily to perpetuated for generations, an injustice on the Franco­ tar all those in opposition with the brush of prejudice Manitoban community. while the latter, in turn, have tended to look for plot But honourable though it was, was it enough to make and conspiracy as the only possible explanation for amends for generations of injustice, for a well-meaning anyone supporting the amendment. The Jewish and well-disposed government and Legislature to extend community also marks with regret, that the present limited government services in French to one of the debate has brought to the foreground scenes of bigotry founding peoples of this province, by courtesy? We and statements laced with racial hatred against our think not. Particularly, since the possibility remained French-speaking fellow Manitobans, such as have not that, at some time in the future, a less well-disposed been seen or heard in this province for nearly 100 years. government and Legislature, by acting arbitrarily, high­ Even when dealing with the issues themselves, the handedly and narrow-mindedly, could very well reverse antagonists have not addressed matters frontally, but the whole process. This is in fact what a government rather have put forward as primary aeguments which did here in Manitoba in 1980 and what the present we believe neither side holds to be primary. Parti-Quebecois Government has tried to do to the According to the government, the main reason for Anglophone community in Quebec through Bill 101. We the amendment has been the concern that the Supreme stress that we see the position of the Francophones in Court, in the Bilodeau case, might well have invalidated Manitoba as no different than that of the Anglophones all of Manitoba's statutes. in other jurisdictions. Among the opponents of the amendment, there have The amendment to Section 23 now before us been those who have insisted it is not needed because essentially is a trade-off. In exchange for translating French language rights were already restored in 1980, only a few hundred, rather than thousands of statutes, when the Supreme Court decision on the Forest case the government is prepared to entrench in the was handed down. Constitution the provision of limited government services The Supreme Court decision in the Forest case did in the French language. In our opinion it is only this indeed revalidate Section 23 of The Manitoba Act. But amendment, with its open and dramatic entrenchment this did not result in the restoration of French language in the Constitution of limited French language rights, rights as is asserted. Otherwise, every Manitoba statute and with its setting down of a specific timetable for its passed since 1870 would now be available in both official implementation, which properly makes amends to the languages. This is not the case. Thousands of statutes, Franco-Manitoban community for the injustice of 1890 in fact, remain untranslated, new amendments to pre- and guarantees that such an injustice will not be 1980 statutes are still introduced in English only, and repeated.

1189 Tuesday, 4 October, 1983

The government, in defending the amendment- has Statutory Committee on Privileges and Elections made much of successfully having resisted, on historical Manitoba Legislature grounds, pressures to liken Manitoba to New Brunswick Winnipeg, Manitoba in the new Canadian Constitution and to make the R3C OV8 language of Manitoba's amendment mirror that of the Dear Mr. Anstett: new Constitution. (In the amendment's text there is at least one important instance where this successful We are sending you herewith a copy of the resistance is manifest: "institution" of government has Supplementary Statement on the constitut ional been substituted by "agency" of government). As set amendments prepared recently by MARL which we down earlier, we understand the intent of the original would like to bring to the attention to the members of Section 23 of The Manitoba Act to have been that both the Committee of Elections and Privileges. linguistic groups in the province would have access to This statement has already gone forward to the key governmental institutions in either English or French. Attorney-General and the Leader of the Opposition, as lt is in this sense, and this sense only, that English and well as the Mayor of Winnipeg. Our association appeared French can be regarded as "official" languages of this week before City Council urging that the plebiscite Manitoba. be cancelled. The Jewish community wishes to stress that by We do not wish to appear again before your supporting the constitutional rights, which are peculiar committee, but we would like the members to know to the Francophone people of the province, it in no way that we are greatly concerned about the tenor of some is detracting from the rights of other ethno-cultural of the presentations made before the committee as groups. The community therefore notes with favour that reported in the media. the government has accepted as an amendment to the Some of the submissions you have received show act, a clause which states nothing in the act will detract that there are people in our province who are not from the preservation or the enhancement of the prepared to give further recognition to French language heritage language rights of other ethno-cultural groups. rights, within the limits proposed, even if they are labelled On the contrary, we believe that in a multicultural society, as bigots. These presenters have shown that there are such as ours, infringement on the rights of any one of people who believe one language, English, should be our ethno-cultural groups becomes an infringement on enough for everyone. the rights of all. We respectfully suggest that members of the We noite as well that the government is listening to opposition, as well as the government, should make it those legitimate concerns various sectors have had clear that the inequality that has prevailed for almost about the amendment. We urge the government to 100 years, as between English and French, must come continue to listen, always keeping in mind the concerns to an end and that prejudice against French-speaking of the Frnaoc-Manitoban community, so that the citizens of Canada, who constitute 26 percent of the amendment which eventually is appproved, in its broad population of the country, cannot be tolerated. strokes and spirit, remains true to the amendment as French-speaking citizens have a constitutional right originally introduced. to language equality. We believe that the government The government's amendment remains clearly as the proposal now under consideration, with its limitations only honourable course to follow in light of past injustices and weaknesses, will offer a further measure of justice and the stili present concerns of the Franco-Manitoban to our French-speaking fellow citizens. We are satisfied community. And, as we have stated elsewhere, in a that this will not cause any inconvenience to the great multicultural society such as ours, sensitivity to the rights majority of unilingual citizens of Manitoba. of the two official language groups, such as the Franco­ We urge that the opposition ought to make it more Manitobans in our own province and the Anglophones clear to everyone that they are not opposed to the in Quebec, cannot but create an atmosphere which extension of French language rights, if this continues promotes the rights of all minorities. to be the case. We make a further appeal to the government and the Department of Community Relations opposition that they should make every effort to seek Winnipeg Jewish Community Councii/Canadian a consensus resolution of the French language rights Jewish Congress issue. While we continue to favour the avoidance of a 200 - 370 Hargrave Street Supreme Court decision on the Bilodeau case, we Winnipeg, Manitoba. R3B 2K 1 believe that the achievement of a consensus between Saul Scott, Vice-President, Community Relations the government and the opposition is even. more Israel Ludwig, Chairman, Joint Community Relations important, at this stage, than whether or not the case Manuel Prutschi, Director, Community Relations is proceeded with in the court. We would hope that the desired consensus can be For further information, please contact: achieved and the issue resolved in the Legislature before Israel Ludwig (957-0520) the holding of any proposed referendum or plebiscite Manuel Prutschi (943-0406) by the cities and municipalities. We commend to the government and the opposition the manner which their respective parties achieved a SUBMISSION NO. 91 consensus with the Federal Government during the MANITOBA ASSOCIATION FOR debate on Canada's new Constitution in 1981. RIGHTS AND LIBERTIES Respectfully submitted, Andy Anstett, Chairman Ralph James, President

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Sybil Shack, Honourary Secretary MARL has previously criticized the government for the manner in which the entrenchment proposal was cc Premier Howard Pawley introduced. We have also expressed certain criticisms Hon. Roland Penner of the government's measure and the Attorney-General Hon. Sterling Lyon has responded positively to some of MARL's concerns. L.R. Sherman. MARL maintains its support for the basic objectives of the constitutional amendment. We must also add that while the government could be faulted for its original MARL SUPPLEMENTARY STATEMENT OF approach, the critics including some members of the CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS Legislature and some outside the Legislature, have not September 21, 1983 helped by their intransigent opposition to entrenchment. A referendum represents little more than a public The Board of the Manitoba Association for Rights opinion poll which may produce one result on October and Liberties at its meeting on September 14th, 1st and a different result on December 1st. This approved the brief on the resolution amending The particular referendum, it it actually takes place, is likely Manitoba Act to extend French language rights in this to produce a kind of mob reaction. This referendum is province. The brief, which was presented to the dangerous because it would submit minority rights to legislative hearings on September 7th by the MARL the highly charged emotional response of a majority Leg islative Review Committeee, involved a cross-section acting under pressure of an imagined threat to its own group of members of the association representative of position. the three major political parties and including English­ This will not help to bring about the kind of considered speaking and French-speaking members. lt had been response that a government ought to make after taking submitted to the government and the opposition in the into account carefully thought-out public latter part of August before the public hearings began. representations. All the leading protagonists, in what MARL is now responding to the proposed civic has become an unfortunate confrontational situation, referendum and the changes to the original have to be prepared to change their approach in the constitutional resolution now put forward by the interest of finding a reasonable compromise. As MARL government. told the legislative committee, the objective should still MARL is opposed to the holding of a civic referendum be to achieve a consensus between government and on the question of French language rights as proposed opposition to resolve this question. in the constitutional amendment. We are against such A precedent for this kind of approach was established a referendum in Winnipeg and in any other municipality. in the House of Commons in 1981 when the final vote Manitoba is not governed by referendum. lt has a was taken on the new Canadian Constitution which representative and responsible form of government, includes the Charter of Rights. The Progressive democratically elected, with provision for public input Conservative Party played a very important role in in many ways. The legislative hearings now going on is preventing the hurried adoption of The Constitution Act one important way of getting public input. and in making it possible for extended hearings to be Any referendum on the question of extending minority held so that many groups and individuals from across rights is bound to be divisive. However, there are other the country could express their views. This process led more compelling reasons for opposing and calling for to many positive changes and in the end the Constitution the withdrawal of the proposed referendum on this was adopted by 246 "yea" votes to 24 "nay," with a particular question. large minority of Conservatives and New Democrats This referendum only compounds the problem rather voting with the Liberal Government. than helping resolve it. lt would be a vote for or against We hope that this is the way in which the Manitoba entrenchment of limited French language rights. constitutional amendments will eventually be dealt with. The referendum, if held, would almost certainly ensure The fact is that we do have two national languages in that we repeat the mistakes of our past history. The Canada - English and French. Whether we are setting aside of Section 23 of The Manitoba Act in 1890 Conservatives, New Democrats or Liberals, we should was followed by a bill doing away with separate schools be prepared to agree that French does deserve equal and French language instruction. In 1896 the Federal constitutional protection with English and its status Government, headed by Prime Minister Tupper, should not be a political issue. proposed remedial legislation to counter the The Leader of the Opposition has stated that when disallowance of French Catholic schools. An election he was Premier of Manitoba and his government began took plce that year and Wilfred Laurier, the Liberal the extension of French language rights following the leader, proposed a compromise. The Liberals won the Forest case, no public outcry ensued. lt might be pointed election and negotiated a new agreement with the out, however, that one reason for the lack of serious Manitoba Government allowing for French language opposition when the Progressive Conservative schools, as well as Ukrainian language schools and Government introduced the earlier measures to comply German language schools for the Mennonite population. with the Supreme Court ruling in the Forest case, was This agreement was abrogated by the Manitoba that those measures had the support of the opposition Government in 1916 and all schools in languages other of that day, the party that now forms the Manitoba than English were closed. lt is because of this Government. We are convinced that a great deal of the experience, resulting from one government reversing opposition to the government's proposal to entrench the policy of another, that the Francophones are now French language rights in the Constitution stems from seeking entrenchment of their language rights in the the same kind of belief in unilingualism that led to the Constitution. abrogation of those rights in 1890.

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The alternatives at this time are as follows: 3. List of organizations which attended the 1. Section 23 of The Manitoba Act can be accepted founding conference of MAPAL on 24 as it now stands. In this circumstance the Supreme September, 1983, and those who indicated a Court might not declare all Manitoba statutes invalid, desire to attend but were unable due to other as the government fears would result from the commitments. Bilodeau case. However, the court could order the We wish to reiterate for the benefit of members of government to translate thousands of statutes into your committee that the Board of Directors of MAPAL, French rather than the limited number of 400 which at its meeting of 28 September, 1983, unanimously is part of the accord with the Societe Franco­ approved the submission made by Mr. Baruch Rand Manitobaine and the Federal Government. regarding the inclusion of Section 23.10 into the 2. If the constitutional resolution amending Section 23 agreement. is accepted this means acceptance of the accord Yours truly, with the Societe Franco-Manitobaine and the Federal Myron J. Spolsky, President. Government modified by whatever changes may be Enclosures agreed to. lt is a matter of great regret that our civic politicians have compounded the situation with their referendum proposal. We appeal to all the leading MANITOBA ASSOCIATION FOR THE players in this real life drama of group rights to PROMOTION OIF ANCESTRAL reconsider their roles and to adopt a statesmanlike LANGUAGES and principled approach in favour of the rights of the minority. They should begin to speak and act in BOARD OF DIRECTORS such a way that will help stem the tide of irrational Myron Spolsky (President) - Manitoba Parents fears that the guarantee of French language rights for Ukrainian Education may seriously limit the rights of the majority. lt just Maryse Birolini-Bryan (Vice-President) - Dante isn't so. Alighiere Cultural Society In considering the changes proposed by the Baruch Rand (Secretary) - Board of Jewish government, MARL welcomes the addition of Section Education 23.9 which was called for in the MARL brief and provides Betty Wong (Treasurer) - Manitoba Academy of that: "nothing in Section 23 and Section 23.7 abrogates Chinese Studies or derogates from any legal or customary right or privilege acquired or enjoyed either before or after the August Bairos - Portuguese Advisory Committee coming into force of this amendment with respect to Taras Paley - Manitoba Parents for Ukrainian any language that is not English or French." MARL also Education stands by its criticism of Section 23.8 in regard to having Gerhard Enns - German Private Schools administrative plans approved by the courts whenever Josie Audino - Dante Alighiere Cultural Society it is felt that someone's rights, under Section 23. 7, have Sharad Chandra - National Association of been adversely affected. Canadians of Indian original (NACOI) Nevertheless, we continue to support the original Ajit Kat,Jr Deol - Singh Saba School intent and objectives of these constitutional Nian Hameed - Association of Pakistani amendments. Canadians We tl'lerefore support those who are calling for Darusia Kapty - Ukrainian National Federation, Winnipeg City Council to reverse its decision to hold a Ukrainian School referendum on the proposed amendment to The Won K Kim - Manitoba Korean Language School Manitoba Act. French language rights deserve Lolita Oandasan - Manitoba Association of constitutional protection. Filipino Teachers Inc. Elva Simundsson - Icelandic National League (Gimli Chapter) Martha Hyrniuk - Immaculate Heart of Mary SUBMISSION NO. 92 School THE MANITOBA ASSOCIATION FOR THE PROMOTION Gunnvor Asmundsson - Icelandic National OF ANCESTRAL LANGUAGES League (Gimli Chapter) October 4, 1983 Leslie Lactinez - North American Hungarian Congress Mr. A. Anstett, MLA, Chairman Dan Waldman - Manitoba Parents for Hebrew Standing Committee of Elections and Privileges Bilingual Education Legislative Building Myroslaw Tracz - Ralph Brown Ukrainian Bilingual Winnipeg, Manitoba Parents Committee R3C ova Arno Jansen - United German School of North Dear Mr. Anstett: Kildonan Further to your committee's request of Friday, 30 Arwind Aggarwal - Padam Bhartiya Cultural Club Emily Pawlyk - Fisher Branch Ukrainian Language September, 1983, enclosed are: School 1. MAPAL Board of Directors, effective 25 Loraine Hnatiuk - Seven Oaks Division (Ukrainian September, 1983; Nursery School) 2. Manitoba Steering Committee on Heritage Katalin Nagy - Winnipeg Hungarian School Languages, whose term expired 24 September, 1983;

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MANITOBA STEERING COMMITTEE ON - Talmud Torah - I.L. Petetz Folk School HER ITAGE LANGUAGES - Ramah Hebrew School (Shaarey Zedec Synagogue) Mario Santos (Chairman) - Winnipeg School - Aleph Beth Nursery Trustee - Torah Academy (Regrets- Conference held on Baruch Rand (Vice-Chairman) - Superintendent the Sabbath Day) of Jewish Education Hindi - Hindi Parishad of Manitoba Harry Schellenberg (Treasurer) - Manitoba - Hindi Society of Manitoba Parents for German Education - Padam Bhartiya Cultural Club (also teach Lolita Oandason - Manitoba Association for Gujurate) Filipino Teachers - National Association of canadians of Indian Myron Spolsky - Manitoba Parents for Ukrainian Origin (NACOI, Winnipeg Chapter Education - South India Arts Academy of Manitoba Won Kim - Manitoba Korean Language School Hungarian -Hungarian Canadian Cultural Society of Mr. John Hofer - Hutterian Education Committee Manitoba (Hungarian Language School) Mr. Mike Maendel - Suncrest Colony - North American Hungarian Congress Terry Prychitko - Manitoba Parents for Ukrainian Icelandic - Icelandic National League (Gimli Chapter) Education Italian - Italian Canadian League of Manitoba Evelyn Katz - Steering Comittee on Jewish - Dante Alighieri Cultural Society Education Korean - Manitoba Korean Language School Mrs. Betty Wong - Manitoa Academy of Chinese Laotian - Lao Association of Manitoba (Regrets) Studies Latvian - Holy Cross Latvian Evangelical Lutheran Dr. Zita McRobbie - Hungarian Canadian Cultural Church (Regrets) Society Polish - Nicholas Rej Polish School, Brandon - Canadian - Polish Congress (Polish Language School) MANITOBA ASSOCIATON FOR THE - Canadian Polish Congress PROMOTION OF ANCESTRAL Portuguese - Portuguese Associaton of Manitoba LANGUAGES - Portuguese Advisory Council - Escola De Lingua & Cultura Portuguesa Arabic - Thompson Muslim Association Punjab - Western Manitoba Sikh Society Bengali - Bichitra Bengalie Language School - Singh Sabha School (Regrets) - Sikh Society of Thompson Chinese Institute of Chinese Language, Culture and Serbian - St. Sava Serbian Orthodox Church (Serbian Arts Manitoba Academy of Chinese Studies Language Schooi)(Regrets) Croatian - Croatian Congregation of Winnipeg Slovenian - Our Lady of Lourdes Roman Catholic (Regrets) Church (Siovenian Language School) Danish - Danish Language School (Regrets) (Regrets) Dutch - Flanders Club (Dutch Language School) Spanish - Winnipeg Chilean Association, Inc. (Escuela (Regrets) Chile) Filipino - Manitoba Association of Filipino Teachers, - Chilean Institute of Culture of Manitoba Inc. ("Salvador Allende") - Phillipine Association of Manitoba Tamil - Tamil Cultural Society - Victoria Albert Parents Association Tibetan - Tibetian Association of Manitoba(Regrets) - Tyndall Park Filipino Parents Association Ukrainian - Fisher Branch Ukrainian School - Magdarat Phillipine Folk-Arts, Inc. - Immaculate of Heart of Mary School Gaelic - Irish Canadian National Association of - Manitoba Parents for Ukrainian Education, Inc. Manitoba, Inc. - River East Sadochuk (Nursery) German - Manitoba Parents for German Education - Sts. Peter and Paul Ukrainian School - Mennonite German Society Ukrainian Orthodox School of St. George - United German School of North Kildonan Ukrainsky Narodny Fond, Inc. - Pembina Colon (West Valley School) - Springfield Heights Ukrainian Bilingual Program - Westgate Mennonite Collegiate Parents' Committee - German Society of Winnipeg - Regent Park Ukrainian Bilingual Program - Mennonite Brethren Collegiate Parents' Committee Greek - Brandon Greek Cultural Association, Inc. - R.J. Morrisson Ukrainian Bilingual Program - Theodros Christachos Greek School (St. Parents' Committee Demetrios Greek Orthodox Church - Ralph Brown Ukrainian Bilingual Program Gujurate - Padam Bhartiya Cultural Club (also teach Parents' Committee Hindi) Urdu - Association of Pakistani Canadians (School Hebrew - Jewish Community Council (Regrets) of Urdu Languages) - Manitoba Parents for Hebrew Bilingual Vietnamese - The Vietnamese Community in Manitoba Education Tiddish - Group for Yiddish Heritage (Steering - Joseph Wolinsky Collegiate Committee) - Board of Jewish Foundation - Ramah Hebrew School

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SUBMISSION NO. 93 the proposed "deal" be finalized, because they foresee OMER FONT AINE the opportunity to "line their pockets" with fees from I litigation which is bound to ensue. M. le president, membres du comite. My 18 years experience as a federal public servant Ces audiences publiques sont pour moi comme pour causes me to agree with concerns expressed by Mr. tant d'autres une occasion d'exprimer notre point de Gary Doer, of the Manitoba Government Employees vue concernant le bilinguisme au Manitoba. Association, that the proposed extension of French Language Services in government offices will cause J'ai done confiance que vous prenez au serieux les serious problems in the provincial public service, and recommandations qui vous sont presentees. create unreasonable demands for positions to be Depuis 93 ans, les Franco-Manitobains endurent designated "bilingual." This presents a serious threat heroiquement une injustice qui leur fut faite par un to the merit system in government appointments. Ability gouvernement hostile aux francophones. to speak French takes precedence over ability to do a Cette injustice et cette illegalite ont assez durees. job. Having seen what has happened in the Federal Aujourd'hui vous avez !'occasion et la responsabilite Government's implementation of bilingualism, I can tell de reparer cette erreur en redonnant a notre province Mr. Doer that what he visualizes is only the "tip of an son statut bilingue comme ce l'etait au debut et en iceberg." offrant les services essentiels dans les deux langues Because I believe in learning from experience, I would officielles de notre pays. like to briefly relate a few examples of injutices which J'appuie done la resolution pour amender I' article 23 I have witnessed in the application of bilingualism at telle que negociee au mois de mai par les gouvernements the federal level: federal et provincial et la Societe franco-manitobaine. 1. Our St. Boniface office staff is required to be totally J'ose croire en votre sincerite et votre sens de la bilingual, despite the fact that the area which it serves justice. (St. Boniface, St. Vital, Norwood, Windsor Park, River Merci. Park South, etc.) is less than 10 percent Francophone. 2. When a vacancy occurred in the St. Boniface office, the position was awarded to the person who was No. SUBMISSION NO. 94 13 on an existing "eligible" list, because that person MRS. MARGARET B. LODDERS was Francophone. Obviously, the 12 others were better Mr. Chairman, and members of the committee: qualified, but were not bilingual. 3. Following introduction of bilingualism at the federal I have followed, with considerable interest, the media level, each department was required to assess the need reports of briefs presented before this legislative for French Language Services, and designate offices committee, dealing with the proposed extension of which would require bilingual staff. Some areas reported French language rights in Manitoba. However, it was no previous demand for services in French, so no not until this late date that I realized that I might have positions were designated in those offices. Shortly something worthwhile to contribute to these thereafter, some of these remote unilingual offices were deliberations. visited by "provocateurs," demanding to be served in My background has been one which afforded me French. When told that none of the staff was bilingual, contact, at an early age, with people of the French culture complaints were immediately registered in Ottawa. lt and language, and I have deep affection for my former was an obvious frame-up to force the appointment of Francophone teachers, lifelong friends, and relatives bilingual staff, regardless of need. acquired through marriage to French Canadians. I, 4. Even before bilingualism became official in Canada, therefore, could not condone any denial of language the president of a Francophone organization in St. rights to which members of Manitoba's Francophone Boniface demanded French language versions of all community are entitled under the law. Nevertheless, I publications (pamphlets) issued by our department. In am opposed to the action which the Government of response, we ordered hundreds of copies of each Manitoba has taken in attempting to circumvent Roger pamphlet in French, but most of these ended up Bilodeau's legal challenge by entering into an agreement gathering dust in our stockroom, because those who with the Federal Government and the Societe Franco­ requested them were more interested in asserting their Manitobaine. rights than they were in the pamphlets. Entrenchment of French language rights in our 5. In our department alone, vast sums of money were Constitution is no solution, because the rights thus spent on French language training for staff members provided will be subjected to repeated challenge until who, subsequently, were never called upon to use their eventually interpreted by the Supreme Court of Canada. language ability. Their absence while on language Therefore, since the need for a Supreme Court rul;ng training over prolonged periods of time caused seems inevitable in the long run, the Government of disruption of service, and placed pressure on other staff Manitoba should have "bit the bullet" and allowed the members. Through lack of use, their ability to speak Bilodeau case to proceed to its natural conclusion. French was soon lost or greatly diminished. If a Agreement by the Manitoba Government to accept promotion later presented itself, they would require federal financial assistance to defray the cost of retraining to qualify if French were required. translating Manitoba statutes was tantamount to 6. Instead of entering the Federal Government accepting a bribe to facilitate entrenchment of French Language Training Program, one of my fellow workers, language rights, which the Federal Government is who already had two Masters' Degrees from the determined to force on the provinces. lt is quite obvious University of Manitoba, decided to take leave of absence that some St. Boniface lawyers are most anxious that without pay and obtain his degree in French from the

1194 Tuesday, 4 October, 1983

University of Grenoble, France. Upon returning to his First of all, I would like to pose the question of whether job, this man was three times refused bilingual or not the Government of Manitoba is helping the certification by examiners in Ottawa, because they Federal Government build a future Lebanon with this "detected a slight English accent" when he spoke language bill - or a future Northern Ireland - or a Spain French. These Francophone eximiners could, with a violent Basque minority. themselves, hardly speak English, yet they were For some time, it has appeared to me that the forced certifying others. Such rigid tests were applied to marriage of Quebec with the rest of Canada is on the Anglophones seeking certification, while Francophones rocks as it were. it also appears to me as if the only were certified bilingual without testing. This represents way to make this marriage go on a little longer is to let discrimination in reverse, and many dedicated public one partner have a lot more than a fair share, more servants have seen their careers sacrified on the altar than the original marriage agreement stipulated. of bilingualism. This is what has caused division between Because of all the fighting between the parents of this English and French citizens, and it will likely happen in forced marriage, because of this constant fighting, the Manitoba, if the proposed agreement is implemented. children of this marriage are severely being damaged The concerns of the MGEA are well-founded, because physchologically and they are thereby made to feel once this "Pandora's box" is opened, there will be no rejected because of all the constant bickering that is way to control the situation. taking place between the parents, the children being I believe that the presentation to this committee by the other ethnic minorities. Dr. Wllliam Shaw, from Quebec, represented the "voice I guess, the alternative that I am trying to draw your of reason" in this whole debate on French language attention to is that, "Would it not be better for the rights in Manitoba. Contrary to what others from Quebec parents to get a peaceful separation than to continue have claimed, entrenchment of French Language Rights this constant bickering and verbal fighting between in Manitoba is not going to force the Parti Quebecois these marriage partners?" to cease oppression of Quebec Anglophones. Nothing it is clear that they are never going to get along well short of bilingualism in all nine other provinces would together. The psychological wounds from all this fighting influence them. Also, those who are trying to convince over past injustices, these wounds have become too other ethnic groups in Manitoba that implementation deep for a real conciliation. it appears to me that the of the proposed agreement will benefit them, are differences between them are too great for this marriage committing a fraud. Most Manitobans whom I know, to continue over the long run in reasonable peace are perfectly willing to give Francophone residents their without one party giving in to the demands of the other. language rights, in accordance with an interpretation Therefore, the alternative question I would like to raise of those rights by the Supreme Court of Canada. If that with this committee and with the government and is bigotry, so be it. I refuse to believe that the Supreme opposition here in Manitoba is, would it not be better Court would hand down a ruling which would inflict in the long run to urge the Federal Government to make utter chaos on the Legislature and Courts of Manitoba. a deal with Quebec to separate amiably and in peace. Reason would prevail and whatever compromise has Let Quebec go their own way. Let those English and to be made as a result of the Bilodeau case, better that non-French people who want to make a deal with those it should be based upon the wisdom of justices of the French people in the rest of Canada. Then the French Supreme Court of Canada, than upon bribes offered from the rest of Canada have a French place to go by the Federal Government to achieve its own goals. where they can feel at home in their own language. And Whatever the cost of translating Manitoba's statutes, the English and non-French from Quebec have a place even if our worst fears were realized as a result of a to go where they can feel at home in their own language. Supreme Court ruling, over a period of time, it would Then we will not be building a future Lebanon or a likely prove far less costly than the unjustified Northern Ireland. proliferation of bilingual services which is currently lt appears to me as if the French-speaking people proposed. The astronomical costs acknowledged by believe that they are not getting their fair share out of the Federal Government represent only a small portion Confederation. And it also appears to me as if they now of the price which Canadian citizens have actually paid want more than their fair share out of Confederation. to provide bilingual services at the federal level. We are One alternative is to let them go their own way in as only deceiving ourselves if we think that the proposed peaceful a manner as possible. Then they will learn agreement is an easy way out. what it means to paddle their own canoe. Of course, the same thing applies to the rest of us in English Mrs. Margaret B. Ladders Canada. Private citizen Anyway, what I am trying to convey to you is that from what I have observed, I seriously doubt that they will ever be fully satisfied with their fair share, because SUBMISSION NO. 95 of all the injustices they feel they have suffered in the HENRY ELIAS past. I seriously doubt whether real reconciliation is possible without giving them more than their fair share. Brief to the Legislative Committee on Bilingualism by So why continue on the road to building an eventual Henry Elias, 3 Celtic Bay, Winnipeg, Manitoba. Lebanon or Northern Ireland. I want to express some of my views on this question of language. And I want to draw your attention to an alternative solution which might alleviate this language (Translation will appear in Appendix at end of all problem in the most peaceful manner in the long run. committee hearings.)

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