Wednesday Volume 682 14 October 2020 No. 119

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 14 October 2020 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2020 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 353 14 OCTOBER 2020 354

the likelihood of food shortages and their intention House of Commons to grab new powers. That does not sound like inter- governmental parity of esteem. Where does his role to Wednesday 14 October 2020 represent the Tory party in stop and his role to build trust and mutual respect start? The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock PRAYERS Simon Hart: The first responsibility in this particular context is to respect the fact that 55% of people in [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] Wales voted to leave the European Union, and it seems astonishing that the party of Wales, represented by the Virtual participation in proceedings commenced (Order, right hon. Lady, is still so out of step with the people of 4 June). Wales when it comes to that. The clock is not being [NB: [V] denotes a Member participating virtually.] turned back, and what we are attempting to do is to deliver a deal that respects that decision and all the Speaker’s Statement institutions in Wales, which I thought we both valued. Mr Speaker: It has come to my attention that, owing to an oversight in the Public Bill Office, the Government : Trust in politicians is sadly were not invited to signify Queen’s consent last night on diminishing, because politicians are not seen to answer Third Reading of the Fisheries Bill. I am satisfied that the question at hand. Back to the matter of trust, Queen’s consent is required and that it has been obtained, transmission rates indicate that Wales stands on the as it was signified for the Bill in the on brink of a circuit-break announcement. Businesses in Wednesday 15 July this year. If a Privy Councillor will Wales, and people who need to self-isolate, seek assurance now signify formally that the Queen’sconsent was obtained that they can trust the Treasury to back up covid-19 for this Bill, I will direct that the appropriate entry be control measures made in Wales for Wales. Can the made in the Journal for yesterday’s proceedings. Secretary of State guarantee to the people of Wales that they can, indeed, trust the Government to do this? The Secretary of State for Wales (Simon Hart) indicated assent. Simon Hart: Having seen the Chancellor ensure that the have had £4.4 billion-worth of Oral Answers to Questions UK taxpayers’ money for exactly that purpose, I hope the right hon. Lady would share my view that we are WALES looking at the UK in the round. Covid is an international problem, and it does not respect political boundaries. The Secretary of State was asked— The Chancellor’s announcements make it very clear EU Trade Negotiations that he sees all the UK as a priority, not just individual component parts, and I would think the numbers speak David Linden ( East) (SNP): What recent for themselves. discussions he has had with the devolved Administrations on UK trade negotiations with the EU. [907294] Covid-19 Restrictions The Secretary of State for Wales (Simon Hart): I have regular discussions with Welsh Ministers on a range of Simon Baynes (Clwyd South) (Con): What recent issues, including EU negotiations. The Joint Ministerial discussions he has had with the Welsh Government on Committee on EU negotiations meets regularly. My covid-19 restrictions in Wales. [907295] Cabinet and ministerial colleagues frequently meet Ministers from the devolved Administrations. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales David Linden: Tomorrow is the day the Prime Minister (David T. C. Davies): We have, of course, worked hand has set as the deadline for a trade deal with the EU. So in hand with the Welsh Government throughout the far, the devolved Administrations have been left out of covid-19 pandemic. The Secretary of State and I have the loop or deliberately kept in the dark on some regular discussions with Welsh Ministers about the details.Does the Secretary of State believe that withholding ongoing UK-wide response to covid-19, and those include key information and detail at such a stage as this shows discussions between the Secretary of State and the First respect or disrespect to the devolved Administrations? Minister and, of course, meetings between the UK Government and all devolved institutions. Simon Hart: I do not recognise the hon. Gentleman’s accusation. Given the number of meetings I have personally Simon Baynes: Restricting the virus is vital, but the been in with Ministers from the devolved nations, let Welsh Government’s lockdown measures in Clwyd South alone other colleagues, it would be a difficult charge to and the rest of north Wales need reviewing. Given the land to suggest that they have not been closely involved difficulties they are causing, particularly for hospitality, with the process right from the beginning. I suspect his the wedding industry and leisure businesses, by using comments are based on the fact that he does not like the county boundaries rather than being targeted on the reality of what is going on, rather than being a legitimate specific areas with high covid case numbers, is the comment. Minister able to outline how often the Welsh Government Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): Last have invited the UK Government to participate in their week, it was revealed that the Secretary of State’s covid-19 planning meetings and whether they have discussed Government have actively sought to conceal information using more detailed evidence by rather than from the Welsh Government. This information included just by county? 355 Oral Answers 14 OCTOBER 2020 Oral Answers 356

David T. C. Davies: That is a very good question. Government do. Although I fully accept that some Although the UK Government extend an open invitation people may have concerns about the slightly different to the devolved Administrations to take part in Cobra approach the Welsh Government sometimes adopt in meetings and ministerial implementation groups, the this matter, the UK Government respect devolution same spirit of co-operation has not thus far been and the reality of Welsh government, and my role as a forthcoming. I was invited to one meeting by Welsh Minister is to work constructively with Welsh Government Government Ministers to discuss parts that were reserved Ministers. At this moment, I do not wish to start to the UK Government anyway. We stand ready to playing politics and criticising them. accept the same level of co-operation from Welsh Government as we have always extended to them. Storm Dennis Gerald Jones (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney) (Lab): With cases rising across the UK, the First Minister has Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): What additional funding called for an extraordinary meeting of Cobra to discuss the Government have provided to communities in Wales plans for a so-called circuit-break lockdown. The measures affected by Storm Dennis. [907296] are already under active consideration in Wales and would be implemented by the Welsh Government if The Secretary of State for Wales (Simon Hart): The they need to be, but of course, any such measures are Chief Secretary to the Treasury wrote to the hon. more effective if we apply them with a four-nation Gentleman last week to confirm that he is expecting to approach across the whole UK. Will the Government provide £2.5 million needed for the tip repairs in Tylorstown, now listen to their own scientific advisers and the Opposition in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency. The letter also and agree to meet the devolved nations to discuss these clarifies that the Chief Secretary is waiting to hear specific proposals? further from the Welsh Government on an additional request to access the reserve. David T. C. Davies: Throughout this pandemic, the Government have listened to a wide range of scientific advisers, some of whom will be advising circuit breakers, Chris Bryant: That was useless yet again. I have been whereas others will be suggesting that measures are too asking for the money for the Rhondda for months. The strict. The Government have listened to all and tried to Prime Minister wrote to me in June saying that he steer a course through the middle of this. They have recognised that Wales had been particularly badly hit listened to Welsh Government Ministers on numerous by Storm Dennis and that the UK Government would occasions, with more than 100 such meetings having look seriously at any requests for funding. I am delighted taken place. We will continue to listen with an open that we have got the £2.5 million for the Tylorstown tip, mind and to follow the evidence. but we need £60 million to mend culverts and drains and to make people’s houses secure in Pontypridd, the Anna McMorrin ( North) (Lab): Unlike this Rhondda and across the whole of Rhondda Cynon Taf. Tory Government in England, our Labour Government Make sure you earn your money by getting us the in Wales do follow the science. The rules in Wales have money in the Rhondda. stopped people taking the virus with them from high- prevalence to low-prevalence areas, thus protecting people’s Simon Hart: What a contrast with the conversation lives. We want the same for visitors to Wales from across the hon. Gentleman and I had last when I reported this the rest of the UK, where rates are even higher, so why news to him; he was charm and diplomacy itself then, are this Tory Government ignoring the First Minister yet when he gets in the Chamber with an audience, he yet again, failing to stand up for the people of Wales becomes a different personality. I will remind him, just and playing politics with people’s lives? in case he has forgotten, what the Chief Secretary’s letter actually says. Among other things, he says, “I am David T. C. Davies: We certainly are not playing expecting to provide the required funding.” That is in politics with people’s lives. The hon. Lady will be aware relation to the Welsh Government confirming they will that 25% of the workforce of Wales travel over to make a reserve claim for 2020-21. So this process is England to work there, and playing politics with people’s under way. It does require the Welsh Government to lives potentially means looking at livelihoods as well. come to the party, too, but they have not yet done so. Of The reality is that we have followed the science all the course a lot of this is in the devolved space, so the hon. way through this process and, more or less, the Welsh Gentleman cannot just pick and choose which bits of Government have followed exactly what the UK devolution suit his desire to make a statement in the Government are doing. Chamber. Rob Roberts (Delyn) (Con): The hon. Member for Cardiff North (Anna McMorrin) says we should follow Covid-19: Financial Support the science, but 10 minutes ago, Public Health Wales told me that it did not even carry out a community-level Tonia Antoniazzi (Gower) (Lab): What recent discussions analysis prior to instigating these lockdown measures. he has had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on Does my hon. Friend agree that this virus does not financial support for people in Wales affected by the respect county borders and that, once again, all the covid-19 outbreak. [907297] Labour Welsh Government are doing is throttling businesses and letting down the people of north Wales? Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): What recent David T. C. Davies: First, let me wish my hon. Friend discussions he has had with the Chancellor of the penblwydd hapus for tomorrow. It is the case, of course, Exchequer on financial support for people in Wales that this virus does not respect boundaries, but the UK affected by the covid-19 outbreak. [907301] 357 Oral Answers 14 OCTOBER 2020 Oral Answers 358

The Secretary of State for Wales (Simon Hart): I have are not strict enough, but on the other, the hon. Lady regular discussions with the Chancellor, and we spoke gets to her feet and says that the interventions are only last week. He has since announced a significant almost imposing undue hardship. It is quite difficult to package of further job support and an additional know exactly where the Opposition stand on getting the £400 million of funding for the Welsh Government. balance right between disease control and the maintaining of a vibrant economy. At each and every stage of this ToniaAntoniazzi:Tourismandhospitalityisthebackbone process, the Chancellor has been flexible and adaptable of the economy of the Gower peninsula. My constituent and has recognised that the situation is changing, often Lara Joslin runs the Kings Head in Llangennith. She is by the hour, let alone by the day or week. The financial fighting to keep her family businesses alive. Lara runs a interventions, which up to now have been about £4.4 billion popular rural pub with accommodation, which, like by way of Barnettised contributions to the Welsh many others in Gower, provides vital part-time jobs for Government—and we could probably double that for local people. Why is the Secretary of State not banging the other interventions, which are more direct—have on the door of the Treasury to right the wrong of the supported business in Wales. But of course, as the job support scheme failing to support independent circumstances change and our reaction changes, so we hospitality businesses such as Lara’s? will remain flexible. Simon Hart: The hon. Lady and I have a similar dependence on tourism in our constituencies, so I Nia Griffith: Indeed, we have always said that any understand absolutely the argument she makes about restrictions need to be backed up with proper financial its value, but I remind her that so far UK taxpayers have support measures for business. To reduce the spread of contributed £1.1 billion by way of bounce back loans; the virus it is also vital that workers who are unwell or £490 million in self-employed income support; £303 million asked to self-isolate do actually stay off work, but as in coronavirus business interruption loans; £30 million- hours are reduced in sectors such as hospitality, an worth of eat out to help out; future funding of £7 million—I increasing number of Welsh workers will find themselves would carry on, Mr Speaker, if only you would let falling below the minimum weekly earnings threshold me—and that is not to mention the 401,000 employees needed to qualify for statutory sick pay. To expect them on furlough. The Treasury has gone above and beyond to live off nothing for a fortnight is totally unacceptable. the international average and tried to get to every single Will the Secretary of State urge the Chancellor to do business in every single area of the UK, and that the decent thing and extend the statutory sick pay includes Gower just as much as anywhere else. scheme to all workers? Jessica Morden: For those who are able to access the Simon Hart: I know from my personal contact with Government’s new job support scheme—many are locked the Chancellor over the past few weeks that he is out or deemed by the Government to be in unviable looking at all these options. That is why the winter jobs—a cut of a third of wages for the low paid makes it resilience measures were brought in a week or so ago, extremely hard to pay bills and feed families. Does the on top of all the other measures he has introduced, Secretary of State really get this? If so, will Wales Office which recognise the very difficult situation in which so Ministers fight to get a better scheme? many people find themselves. I am not going to stand here and say that we are never going to consider another Simon Hart: Often in this questions session we have option; of course we will. We will always look at the talked about the fact that there will always be those in individual circumstances, particularly of those who are all our constituencies who do not quite fit every single hardest hit. one of the intervention measures that the Chancellor has announced over the past few months. In those circumstances, of course we want to be as flexible as Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC) [V]: Further to our possible and to try to find ways, through either the recent meeting, with the various covid funding measures intervention schemes or universal credit, to support the being announced by the Government sometimes seeming hardest-hit families as best we can. If the hon. Lady haphazardly and causing some confusion—the bid for brings to my attention individual examples of those football here, the bid for the arts there and now,apparently, gaps, I will of course do my best to address them. Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy funding for universities in Wales even though the matter Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): Throughout this pandemic, is devolved—will the Minister consider publishing a Welsh businesses have done all they can to stay open regular simple table of the Government’s covid funding and stay trading, with so many drawing on the support with the consequential amounts for Wales if there are grants and loans that have been so important in keeping such? them afloat. But as more areas of the country come under local restrictions, with trading halted or severely Simon Hart: The hon. Gentleman makes a good limited, and amid fears about public confidence, many point about universities. Of course, that is a devolved businesses feel that they have absolutely maxed out on matter and yet hugely dependent on the Union effort. their borrowing and are worried about the future. What In answer to his very direct question, I can give him a plan do the Government have to support businesses very direct yes. that are now heavily in debt, to make sure that the burden of repayments in the coming months does not City and Growth Deals mean that they go under? Simon Hart: I start by expressing some confusion: on Andrew Griffith (Arundel and South Downs) (Con): the one hand, Opposition Members are articulating a What steps he is taking to help implement (a) city and Welsh Government view that the existing interventions (b) growth deals in Wales. [907298] 359 Oral Answers 14 OCTOBER 2020 Oral Answers 360

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales The Secretary of State for Wales (Simon Hart): The (David T. C. Davies): I am committed to driving forward UK Government have provided a support package for each of the growth deals in Wales and, since March, Welsh businesses and communities in recent weeks, have taken part in 24 meetings with representatives of including the Government’s £30 billion plan for jobs. Wales city and growth deals. I recently visited Our ambition remains to secure jobs, stimulate growth WestandSouthPembrokeshireconstituencyafterapproving and provide opportunities to level up Wales. the Pembroke Dock marine development, one of the many growth deal projects that will be contributing to Joy Morrissey: I thank the Secretary of State for his levelling up in Wales. financial support for Wales and for the devolved Welsh Government. Does he agree that, if the Welsh Government Andrew Griffith: Last week, the Prime Minister outlined want to trigger further restrictions and go beyond how we can build back better by investing in areas such Government measures, which should ultimately be used as hydrogen, green energy and electric mobility. Does as a last resort, they need to provide plans for how they the Minister agree that, while it is an opportunity for will financially support the industries that will be hit as the whole United Kingdom, we should particularly put a result? Wales at the heart of that green revolution? Simon Hart: My hon. Friend makes a very good David T. C. Davies: I am very happy to agree with point. The Barnettised numbers, which total £4.4 billion that. The Prime Minister’s commitment last week was a so far, do give the Welsh Government a degree of game changer, quadrupling offshore wind energy by flexibility in addressing issues if the evidence supports 2030, doubling the amount of support for renewables doing it in a slightly different way. There are one or two projectsandproviding£160milliontosupportinfrastructure examples of where they have introduced their own and one gigawatt of new floating wind projects. That is interventions,courtesy of money provided by UK taxpayers, all clear evidence of this Government’s commitment to but the overriding point is that there does need to be a a green and resilient economic recovery from the degree of collaboration and co-operation that straddles coronavirus. all the countries of the UK, because this is an international and a national challenge. UK Internal Market Bill Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con): Like me, the Secretary of State will have welcomed the vision Aaron Bell (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Con): What set out by the Prime Minister last week for expanding assessment he has made of the potential economic renewable energy and, importantly, the commitment to effect on Wales of the provisions in the UK Internal boosting floating offshore wind power, which represents Market Bill. [907299] such a big opportunity for us in Wales. May I ask him if he would use his good offices to ensure that all the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales relevant players in this—the private sector developers (David T. C. Davies): The United Kingdom Internal that have projects ready to go, the Department for Market Bill will protect seamless trade across the United Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy and the Crown Kingdom, which will benefit people in all corners of the Estate, which owns the seabed—are all on the same UK and, indeed, of this House. Our market access page, working towards a shared goal so that we get guarantee will provide certainty for Welsh businesses as decisions made in a timely way? the transition period ends and provide a firm foundation upon which businesses may flourish. Simon Hart: Absolutely. I agree with my right hon. Friend and neighbour’s assessment of the situation. We Aaron Bell: Obviously, in Newcastle-under-Lyme, the were all encouraged by my hon. Friend the Under- whole of Staffordshire, and indeed the whole of the Secretary’s comments just now in that respect. I can, west midlands, there are a number of businesses that I hope, encourage my right hon. Friend by saying that I both source from and supply to Wales. Those businesses am meeting the Crown Estate the day after tomorrow, need the certainty that standards will be observed and I think, to discuss the potential delays, which at the that what they produce will be able to be sold into moment look like being its problem, and we need to different markets around the United Kingdom, and unblock that. particularly in Wales. Will my hon. Friend confirm that the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill will deliver Covid-19: Employment Support on that? Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab): What recent David T. C. Davies: I can absolutely confirm that. I discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for hope all Members of this House are listening to the Work and Pensions on support for people in Wales wise words of my hon. Friend. The Bill provides a vital whose employment has been adversely affected by the guarantee that businesses in his constituency, and in all covid-19 outbreak. [907302] constituencies across the UK, will be able to continue to trade confidently within our internal market as the The Secretary of State for Wales (Simon Hart): I have transition period ends. frequent discussions with the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions. At least 510,000 people in Wales Covid-19: Economic Recovery have been directly supported by the measures we have so far put in place. However, the best possible support Joy Morrissey (Beaconsfield) (Con): What steps his we can provide is to get behind the national effort and Department is taking to support Wales’seconomic recovery public health guidelines to ensure that we overcome this from the covid-19 outbreak. [907300] crisis sooner rather than later. 361 Oral Answers 14 OCTOBER 2020 Oral Answers 362

Rosie Cooper [V]: With the UK’s unemployment rate sure there must be many others. I assure the hon. at its highest level in three years, it is clear that many Gentleman that as a Government who are committed workers in Wales will need to rely on social security in to the Union, our broadband ambitions span not just order to get back on their feet. Does the Secretary of Wales but the whole of the United Kingdom, from the State agree that it is only fair to update legacy benefits tip of Penzance right up to the coast of Caithness and such as jobseeker’s allowance and employment and beyond. support allowance to match the increase in universal Strengthening the Union credit that was announced earlier this year?

Simon Hart: I thank the hon. Lady for her comments. Marco Longhi (Dudley North) (Con): What steps his Conversations I have had with the Department for Department is taking to strengthen the Union. [907304] Work and Pensions, and indeed the Chancellor, have touched on this very issue. This is why the arrangements The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales on universal credit have been as flexible as they can be. (David T.C. Davies): The Government are fully committed The Department is making an effort to ensure that to the constitutional integrity of the United Kingdom. everybody is accounted for and that those who might Our response to the covid-19 outbreak has clearly fall into the gaps we referred to earlier are properly demonstrated the value of Wales being a part of the looked after. That is very much uppermost in the minds Union, with a package of UK Government support of Cabinet and ministerial colleagues. I can give her that frankly goes well beyond anything that the Welsh that assurance. Government could offer alone. It is clear that our four nations are safer and more prosperous when we stand Full-fibre Broadband Network together. Marco Longhi: It is very good news that the Government Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) have appointed Sir Peter Hendy to undertake a detailed (LD): What progress has been made on expanding review as to how the quality and availability of transport Wales’s full-fibre broadband network. [907303] infrastructure can support economic growth, as well the quality of life, across the UK. Will the Minister advise The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales on what his Department’s priorities are for this review (David T. C. Davies): The Government are committed in Wales? to rolling out broadband across the United Kingdom, although we have much work to do. I am pleased that David T. C. Davies: Our priorities, clearly, will be 50% of premises in Wales have access to full-fibre better transport links, ensuring that Wales is better broadband, compared with only 14% in the UK as a connected to the rest of the Union, but the Government’s whole. Only a fortnight ago, I was able to go out with ambitions go well beyond transport infrastructure. We the innovative Welsh SME Beacons Telecom, which is believe that Wales is an integral part of the United helping to deliver broadband in remote and rural parts Kingdom and we want to see not just good transport of Wales—the parts of Wales that Openreach seemingly links but our historical links and cultural links, because cannot reach. we believe that one is quite easily able to be proud to be Welsh and proud to be British in this Union. Jamie Stone [V]: I suspect that my question will come as no surprise. I represent one of the most remote parts Selaine Saxby [V]: From Ilfracombe to Exmoor in of the UK, and far too many of my constituents simply my North Devon constituency, it is possible to see south cannot get decent connectivity.Could the Minister please Wales. Does my hon. Friend agree that we should look share his experience and his know-how with the Scottish at the options for better connecting the two areas to Government so that we can get this problem sorted out? strengthen the links between our economies and, ultimately, the Union? David T. C. Davies: If the care to issue me with an invitation, I stand ready to serve David T. C. Davies: I entirely agree with what my hon. and offer advice such as I can. Actually, I think my Friend has said. The Government are going to strengthen advice is that are innovative small companies out there all links within the United Kingdom. Weare a Conservative that are able to do things that Openreach apparently and Unionist Government, and I look forward to support cannot do. I saw an example of that in Wales, and I am from all sides of the House. 363 14 OCTOBER 2020 Oral Answers 364

Speaker’s Statement —including a circuit breaker—would be needed to prevent an “exponential rise in cases”. Why did the Prime 12 noon Minister reject that advice and abandon the science? Mr Speaker: Before Prime Minister’s Question Time, I wish to make a short statement. On Monday, in The Prime Minister: We will do whatever it takes to answer to a question from the hon. Member for Swansea fight this virus and to defeat it, but since the right hon. West (Geraint Davies) about virtual participation in and learned Gentleman quotes the SAGE advice, I debates, the Prime Minister—inadvertently, I would might just remind him that, on page 1, it states: accept—said “All the interventions considered have associated costs in terms of health and wellbeing…Policy makers will need to consider “I defer to you and the House authorities.”—[Official Report, analysis of economic impacts and the associated harms alongside 12 October 2020; Vol. 682, c. 40.] this epidemiological assessment.” As the Prime Minister will know, decisions on the scope of virtual participation are for the House itself. All The advice that I have today is that if we do the regional decisions have been made on the basis of motions approach that commended itself to the House and, moved by the Leader of the House. indeed, to him on Monday, we can bring down the R and we can bring down the virus. Will he stick to his I know that the House of Commons Service would position of Monday and support that approach? be more than happy to facilitate virtual participation in debates, if the House voted for it. If the Government wished to pass me the power, I would be more than : I do not think that approach goes far happy to accept it, but the decision to bring forward the enough, and neither does SAGE. The Prime Minister relevant motion is a matter for the Prime Minister and talks of the costs. Since he rejected SAGE’s advice on the Government he leads, not for me and the House 21 September, I remind him that the R rate has gone up, authorities. the infection rate has quadrupled and hospital admissions have gone from 275 a day to 628 a day in England. Yesterday, 441 covid patients were on ventilators and the number of deaths recorded was, tragically, the highest PRIME MINISTER since 10 June. That is the cost of rejecting the advice. SAGE has a clear view on why that is happening. What The Prime Minister was asked— is the Prime Minister’s view on why these numbers are all heading in the wrong direction? Engagements The Prime Minister: I set that out very clearly in the [907524] Mr Shailesh Vara (North West Cambridgeshire) House on Monday. The difference between this stage of (Con): If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday the pandemic and March and April, as the House 14 October. knows very well, is that the disease is appearing much The Prime Minister (): This morning I more strongly in some parts of the country than others. had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In In Liverpool, for instance, alas, the figures are now addition to my duties in this House, I shall have further running at 670 cases per 100,000, against 33 cases per such meetings later today. 100,000 in Cornwall. There are 540 cases per 100,000 in Newcastle, alas, against 32 in North Norfolk. That is Mr Vara: During this pandemic, in my constituency why the three-tiered approach that we set out on Monday, of North West Cambridgeshire, I have seen a number of which the right hon. and learned Gentleman supported, instances of ordinary citizens doing extraordinary work is the right way forward. We want to put in the most helping the elderly and vulnerable, and that has been stringent measures necessary in the places where the repeated across the country in every single constituency, virus is surging, in order to get it down where it is giving true meaning to the words “community spirit”. surging. That is the logical thing to do. Will he get on to Would my right hon. Friend take this opportunity not his Labour friends in those parts of the north of England only to acknowledge the fantastic work that has been whom we want to work with to put those very stringent done by so many people, but to give a huge thank you to measures in place, in order to deliver the reductions that each and every one of these unsung heroes of our the whole country wants to see? Will he support those country? measures? He would not support them last night.

The Prime Minister: I thoroughly concur with my Keir Starmer: I think the Prime Minister is behind the hon. Friend, and I congratulate all the volunteers for curve again. He probably has not noticed that this their spirit and the achievements they have delivered for morning, the council leaders in Greater Manchester the people of this country. I was delighted that we had a that he just quoted, including the Mayor and the first chance to honour them in the birthday honours list Conservative leader of Bolton Council, said in a press at the weekend, or just some of them. statement that they support a circuit break above tier 3 Keir Starmer (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab): On restrictions—keep up, Prime Minister. 11 May, the Prime Minister said that the Government’s The big problem the Prime Minister has, as the covid strategy SAGE minutes make absolutely clear, is that his two “will be governed entirely by the science.”—[Official Report, main policies—track and trace and local restrictions— 11 May 2020; Vol. 676, c. 36.] simply have not worked, and we cannot stand by. In On 21 September,the Government’sown scientific advisers, July, the Prime Minister told me that track and trace the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies, gave very “will play a vital part in ensuring that we do not have a second clear advice. They said that a “package of interventions” spike this winter.” 365 Oral Answers 14 OCTOBER 2020 Oral Answers 366

Those were his words. Three months later, SAGE has Keir Starmer: Following the advice is now, apparently, concluded that track and trace is only opportunistic. Presumably the Prime Minister will say “having a marginal impact on transmission”. the same to the leader of Bolton Council, a Conservative It goes on to say—and this is the really worrying part—that leader, who this morning said he supports a circuit this is likely to break. “further decline in the future.” I have just listened to what the Prime Minister said Let us not have the usual nonsense that anyone asking about his strategy to get R below 1, but I cannot think the Prime Minister a question about track and trace is of a single scientist who backs it. He will know that the somehow knocking the NHS. This is SAGE’sassessment— chief medical officer said on Monday that he, the chief the Government’s own advisers. After £12 billion, let us medical officer, is—his words: have a straight answer: why does the Prime Minister “not confident, and nor is anyone confident, that the tier 3 … think that his track and trace system has gone so proposals for the highest rates would be enough”. wrong? That is tier 3—the highest tier. So why is the Prime Minister so confident that his approach will get the R The Prime Minister: It is thanks to NHS Test and rate below 1—so confident—or is that no longer the Trace, which is now testing more people than any other Government plan? country in Europe, that we know where the disease is surging. We know that it is regionally distributed, rather The Prime Minister: I am afraid the right hon. and than nationally distributed, at the moment, and that learned Gentleman is misrepresenting the position, gives us a chance to do the right thing. The right hon. doubtless inadvertently.Our advice is that, if the regional and learned Gentleman wants to close pubs. He wants measures are tier 3 and at all levels were implemented in to close bars. He wants to close businesses in areas full with the support and the active co-operation of across the country where the incidence is low. That is local leaders, as indeed we have seen from the leader of what he wants to do, and he wants to do it now, yet he Liverpool city region, and I pay tribute to him and I voted to do nothing last night—nothing—in the areas thank him for what he is doing, and if we saw full and where the incidence is highest. He says one thing at proper enforcement and if they were able to conduct 5 o’clock about calling for a national lockdown. When proper local test and trace, with the support of the it came to a vote in the House of Commons to impose £500 million that we are giving, then yes, those measures more stringent measures, he failed even to turn up. would deliver the reduction in the R locally or regionally that we need in order to avert what none of us wants to Keir Starmer: I know that, for someone who has been see—what none of us wants to see, except now the right an opportunist all his life, this is difficult to understand, hon. and learned Gentleman, having performed this but having read and considered the SAGE advice, I have extraordinary U-turn—and that is the disaster, in the genuinely concluded that a circuit break is in the national words of the shadow Health spokesman, of a national interest—genuinely concluded. It is the failure of the lockdown. We do not want to go there. We want the Prime Minister’s strategy that means tougher measures regional approach. He should co-operate with it. are now unavoidable. That is SAGE’s view. SAGE has advised that a circuit breaker should act to reduce R Keir Starmer: I have supported the Government on below 1, should reset the incidence of disease to a lower all their measures so far, and I have taken criticism on it, level and should set the epidemic back by approximately but I think this measure is wrong and a circuit breaker is 28 days or more. All three are vital, and that is why in the national interest. I have read the advice of SAGE Labour backs it, so can the Prime Minister tell us what and the Government have rejected it. is his alternative plan to get R below 1? This is my last question, and I am sure the Prime The Prime Minister: The plan is the plan that the Minister has his pre-prepared rant ready as usual, but right hon. and learned Gentleman supported on Monday. we are at a tipping point. Time is running out. Maybe The whole point is to seize this moment now to avoid he can seize the moment and answer a question. This the misery of another national lockdown, into which he morning, The Daily Telegraph quotes senior Government wants to go headlong, by delivering a regional solution. sources saying the chances of the Prime Minister backing Opportunism is, I am afraid, the name of the game for a circuit break in the next two weeks are about 80%. Is the party opposite, because they backed the rule of that right? If it is, why does he not do it now, save lives, six—or he backed the rule of six—and then refused to fix testing and protect the NHS? vote for it. I think at three o’clock, the shadow Health spokesman said that a national lockdown would be The Prime Minister: The right hon. and learned “disastrous”; at five o’clock, he was calling for it. Let us Gentleman claims to be supporting the Government go back to the approach that he was supporting on one day, and then performs a dramatic U-turn the next. Monday. Let us try to avoid the misery of another He claims to support the rule of six one day, then pulls national lockdown, which he would want to impose, as his support the next. He wants tough measures, and I say, in a headlong way. Let us work together—let us then refuses to vote for them. Everybody can see what work together, as he was prepared to do on Monday—to he is doing. Labour have said it themselves. They see keep kids in school, who he would now yank out of this as a “good crisis” for the Labour party and one school in a peremptory way, keep our economy going, they wish to exploit. We see this as a national crisis that and keep jobs and livelihoods supported in this country. we are going to turn around, and the way we are going Let us take the common sensical regional approach, to do it is—and I rule out nothing, of course, in and will he kindly spell out to all his colleagues across combating the virus, but we are going to do it—with the the whole of the country that that is the best way local, the regional approach that can drive down and forward, as indeed he did on Monday? will drive down the virus if it is properly implemented, 367 Oral Answers 14 OCTOBER 2020 Oral Answers 368 and that is what I believe he should be supporting. He Tory colleagues are saying: the Prime Minister’s next said he would support it on Monday.This is our opportunity job could be on the Back Benches; he just does not to keep things going: to keep our kids in school; to keep know it yet. If the Prime Minister will not U-turn on his our businesses going. That I think is what the people of plans to scrap furlough, does he realise that he will this country want to do. This is our opportunity to do never—not ever—be forgiven for the damage that he is that, and to suppress the virus where it is surging. He just about to cause to people up and down ? refuses to accept that approach today. I hope that, not for the first time, he will change his mind and think the The Prime Minister: As I have said many times to the better of his actions. right hon. Gentleman, this Government are continuing to support people across the whole of the UK, with [907525] (East Worthing and Shoreham) many billions of pounds in Barnett consequentials—at (Con): One of the great unsung achievements of the least £5 billion in Barnett consequentials for Scotland coalition Government was the recruitment of 4,200 extra alone. But one thing I will congratulate him on is the health visitors. As an experienced father himself, the Scottish nationalist party’ssupport for the tiered approach, Prime Minister knows how vital baby-to-baby contact which I think is still its policy, unlike the Labour party. is, as well as support networks for new parents, yet At least it is showing some vestige of consistency in its lockdown has made that difficult. At a time when they normal gelatinous behaviour. are most needed, health visitor numbers have dwindled, and they have been diverted from face-to-face contact. [907527] Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con) [V]: On Will the Prime Minister urgently look at reversing the Monday, I met virtually with the Hendon Cladding decline in health visitors and support the parent-infant Collective to discuss building safety. The EWS1 form premium proposal by the Parent-Infant Foundation to was raised. It was designed to support residential valuation help lockdown babies catch up? and lending on buildings over 18 metres. However, the consolidated advice notes issued by the Ministry of The Prime Minister: I thank my hon. Friend, who is Housing, Communities and Local Government extended not only an experienced father himself but, of course, the scope of the form to buildings below 18 metres. Will an experienced campaigner on this issue. I am very the Prime Minister provide specific interim advice around pleased that health visiting teams have continued throughout risk prioritisation of buildings below 18 metres, and will this crisis to prioritise vulnerable families, and that is he extend the building safety fund to buildings of less what they are going to do throughout the winter and than 18 metres? throughout the pandemic. The Prime Minister: I will look at the second point (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (SNP) [V]: my hon. Friend raises, but what I can tell him is that we Yesterday, the founder of BrewDog warned that are focusing first on buildings with unsafe cladding that “the end of the Job Retention Scheme will lead to a tsunami of are over 18 metres. I understand that the Royal Institution unemployment”. of Chartered Surveyors is producing a risk matrix to support mortgage valuation under 18 metres, and that, BrewDog is just one of thousands of businesses across led by the National Fire Chiefs Council, a risk prioritisation Scotland and the United Kingdom demanding that the tool for blocks of flats will be available shortly. Tory Government U-turn on their reckless plans to scrap the furlough scheme. There are just two weeks left to save people’s jobs and livelihoods, so in the next (Foyle) (SDLP): By the weekend, fortnight the Prime Minister has two choices: extend Northern Ireland will be in an effective lockdown. the full furlough scheme or inflict a tsunami of Under the Chancellor’s new furlough scheme starting in unemployment on our people this winter. Which is he November,a minimum wage full-time employee, a normal going to choose? worker, will be entitled to £227 per week. I doubt that this Prime Minister could survive on that. How, and under God, does he expect ordinary decent workers to The Prime Minister: As the right hon. Gentleman survive on that? knows, the Chancellor has already unveiled the job support scheme, which will go through till next year. Those on low incomes will also have the additional The Prime Minister: I am proud of what the Government benefit of universal credit, which again is going through, have done to raise the national living wage, which this in its uplifted form—£1,000 extra per year—to next Government introduced. What I can tell the hon. April at least. Gentleman is that whatever happens, a combination of the job support scheme and universal credit will mean that nobody gets less than 93% of their current income. Ian Blackford: My goodness. That really does show that the Prime Minister does not get it. Universal credit— is that really what the Prime Minister is saying to those [907528] Virginia Crosbie (Ynys Môn) (Con): My that could be saved? People do not want to hear the constituency has the best nuclear site in the UK. Will boasting and the excuses that we get; they want action. the Prime Minister confirm to me and the people of These half-measures do not cover it. Thousands have Ynys Môn that he is 100% behind Wylfa Newydd? already lost their jobs. The Office for National Statistics has confirmed that we have the highest rate of redundancies The Prime Minister: Yes, indeed. I congratulate my since 2009. We are heading towards a Tory winter of hon. Friend on her fantastic campaigning for a nuclear mass unemployment created by the Prime Minister and future for Ynys Môn. She has no more fervent supporter the Chancellor. We know what the Prime Minister’s in that objective than me. 369 Oral Answers 14 OCTOBER 2020 Oral Answers 370

[907526] Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) The Prime Minister: I am aware of the incredible (Lab): The Secretary of State for Housing, Communities prospect in the Celtic sea and I am confident that the and Local Government has a habit of hitting the headlines, Crown Estate, as the landlord of the seabed, will respond and not always for the right reason. At the weekend, we positively.- discovered that his constituency had been awarded £25 million from the regeneration scheme and that that [907530] Helen Hayes (Dulwich and West Norwood) was approved by one of his own Ministers. The Secretary (Lab): My constituent, Luke Thomas, has recently been of State returned the favour by approving funding for diagnosed with terminal cancer. He urgently needs to that Minister’s constituency. We have one Department, move closer to his family for support. Luke has a two Ministers and tens of millions of pounds of taxpayers’ shared ownership flat in a low-rise building with money. Does the Prime Minister think that the approval wooden cladding, but he cannot sell it because process is appropriate, or does he think that the public mortgage lenders require an EWS1 certificate and might be right in thinking that this all looks a bit grubby? Luke’s building does not have one. Estimates suggest that it could take 10 years to certify every building The Prime Minister: All this was independently approved, affected, but Luke and hundreds of thousands of but if the hon. Gentleman has some serious allegation people like him cannot wait that long. When will the to make against my right hon. Friend the Secretary of Prime Minister end this scandal? State then may I suggest that he has the guts to make it? The Prime Minister: I direct the hon. Lady to what I [907531] Craig Williams (Montgomeryshire) (Con): said a moment or two ago to my hon. Friend the British wool is a multifunctional versatile product, but Member for Hendon (Dr Offord) about trying to provide sadly farmers across the UK and Montgomeryshire mortgage backing for those who find themselves in that feel frustrated that this highly sustainable natural very difficult position, but we must get on and remove product is not properly valued and utilised to its full the flammable cladding from buildings of all kinds. potential at the moment. Will the Prime Minister help [907536] Lee Anderson (Ashfield) (Con): Ashfield and to boost the export market, or indeed our domestic Eastwood has been left behind, ignored and forgotten demand, for British wool as we build back better? For about after decades of Labour-run councils and example, wool can be used as a great insulator for the Labour MPs. Last December, my friends, family and next generation of sustainable housing. constituents voted for change. They want to see the The Prime Minister: I thank my hon. Friend for what glory days return to Ashfield and Eastwood, which was he does to campaign for wool. As someone whose once the beating heart of Nottinghamshire through family used to farm sheep, I feel the pain of sheep mining, textiles and engineering. Can my right hon. farmers everywhere. The price is on the floor at the Friend please reassure me that Ashfield and Eastwood moment. Uses such as the one my hon. Friend identifies will no longer be the forgotten constituency and that he are extremely interesting and should be pursued. I urge will do all he can to make sure we get the investment everybody in this country who is thinking of Christmas that we need to secure better jobs, better education, presents to buy British wool this winter. better training and a better future? The Prime Minister: Yes, indeed. I can tell my hon. [907529] Neil Coyle (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) Friend, who is a fantastic campaigner for Ashfield, that (Lab): Two weeks ago, the Prime Minister told me that they are in line for the town deal proposals, as part of he would support charities to be able to open covid-safe the £3.6 billion town deals fund, and the £250 million accommodation for homeless people this winter, but growth deals announced through to 2021. I hope he will yesterday the Government announced a £3 million cut take that good news back to Ashfield. in the cold weather fund this year, despite higher covid- related costs. Will the Prime Minister at least guarantee [907532] (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) that all Government funds can be used to cover anyone (SNP) [V]: The Prime Minister has been asked this and everyone needing shelter? question before by my SNP colleagues and others but they have never received a direct response. I therefore The Prime Minister: Of course, we will make sure ask the Prime Minister again: will he confirm that the that local authorities get the support they need. As the temporary £20 universal credit uplift will be made hon. Gentleman knows, we have already put in an extra permanent after April next year and that those who are £3.7 billion into helping local authorities and, I think, a currently excluded from the uplift will be included? total of £28 billion into tackling the local consequences of covid. We will continue to support people throughout The Prime Minister: I know that I have given that the country. answer many times, and that is because the answer remains the same, which is that the uplift will remain in [907535] Sir Gary Streeter (South West Devon) (Con): place through to April next year. As I said, when we May I strongly support the aspiration of the Prime combine the JSS with UC people get 93% of their Minister, set out last week, to deliver floating offshore income. I appreciate that times are tough, but the best wind capacity of 1 GW by 2030? Is my right hon. thing we can do is keep this economy moving if we Friend aware that there is a very substantial scheme possibly can, keep our kids in schools and avert the being worked up in the Celtic sea that would meet a “disaster”—Labour’s words—of another national third of that target, as well as create many jobs in south lockdown. Wales, Devon and Cornwall? Will he please use his best endeavours to ensure that the Crown Estate looks favourably [907538] Stuart Anderson (Wolverhampton South West) on that project to help our country to deliver its important (Con): Will the Prime Minister join me in thanking the commitments? great businesses of Wolverhampton, such as Greg at 371 Oral Answers 14 OCTOBER 2020 Oral Answers 372

GI’s Barbers and Baked in Tettenhall, for continuing to on the train tomorrow I will need to manually switch to serve the community in difficult times? Will he also the Scottish app, as it does not happen automatically. reconfirm his commitment to invest and level up We are facing a second wave of infections across the Wolverhampton, and when we have come through this UK, so test and trace is even more critical. Given the stronger, may I invite him to come and see those Prime Minister’s support for a four nations approach, businesses himself? what engagement has taken place on app interoper- ability, because that is critical, particularly in border The Prime Minister: I have happy memories of sampling communities? some of the fare in Wolverhampton with my hon. Friend. I can tell him that the Black Country city deal The Prime Minister: I am very grateful to the hon. has just seen an investment of £5.8 million and that the Lady for pointing that out. I will make sure that there is West Midlands Combined Authority was just awarded interoperability; I will do what I can to ensure there is £66 million for projects across the area, including £15 million interoperability across all four nations. As she knows, for the national brownfield institute, which is due to be there is a slightly different approach in Northern Ireland located in Wolverhampton. Wolverhampton was the already, but in the bulk of the approach that we have so birthplace of the first industrial revolution. It is now far taken, there is much more in common than sets us teeming with opportunity in the latest. apart. [907533] Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP) [V]: The Prime Minister will be aware that the Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): I welcome the Northern Ireland Executive have just announced new Government’s commitment to establish freeports. The restrictions to bear down on the virus while still port of Immingham in my constituency is, by tonnage, keeping schools open, with the exception of one extra the largest port in the country. Does the Prime Minister week at Halloween, and keeping most sectors of the agree that it would be somewhat remiss to not include economy going, but the sectors that are missing are Immingham in the freeport programme? hospitality, the associated supply chains and the self-employed. What plans does he have to announce The Prime Minister: I thank my hon. Friend for his something to help these much needed sectors that are campaign for Immingham. It is registered, but my hon. in dire need and need assistance urgently? Friend should know that he is one of the most successful campaigners in this House already this year, because The Prime Minister: I thank the hon. Gentleman. I the new bridge that he asked for at Suggitts Lane am in continuous contact, as he can imagine, with the crossing is going to be completed between the summer leader and the deputy leader in Northern Ireland. Northern and the autumn of next year, so he can carry that back Ireland, of course, will receive at least £2.4 billion in in triumph to Suggitts Lane. additional funding as a result of Barnett consequentials, but we will look at further imaginative and creative measures to support jobs and to support livelihoods [907537] Anne McLaughlin (Glasgow North East) (SNP) across the whole of the UK. [V]: My lovely 88-year-old constituent Mary feels foolish for falling for it. She is talking about being mis-sold Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Moorlands) (Con): This green deal products by Home Energy and Lifestyle Sunday marks the 11th Anti-Slavery Day for the United Management Ltd, a Government-approved company, Kingdom, an opportunity for all of us to raise awareness in 2013. She is talking about being saddled with a of the heinous crime of modern slavery. Will my right 25-year loan that she must live to 106 to pay off. At the hon. Friend use this opportunity to reinforce the UK’s speed with which the complaints are being dealt with by global leadership on this issue, and can he confirm that the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial treating victims with dignity and respect will always be Strategy, I will be 106 by the time we get any kind of at the heart of everything this Government do in response resolution. Will the Prime Minister please commit to to this crime? investigating why Mary, who is watching now, and hundreds of others are waiting years to be compensated The Prime Minister: Yes, I certainly can confirm what for something that happened not because they were my right hon. Friend says about treating victims with foolish, but because they were victims of mis-selling? dignity and respect, and she is right to take pride in what this Government have done in introducing the The Prime Minister: I am afraid to say that what Modern Slavery Act 2015. Thanks to that Act, we are the hon. Lady raises is incredibly important, and she identifying more victims of modern slavery than ever is right to raise it. We must accelerate the process by before: 10,000 potential victims of modern slavery were which these complaints are upheld and dealt with and identified in 2019, which is a 52% increase. It is this compensation is delivered, if only because that is the Government, this House and this country that are only way to build public confidence in all the retrofitting, leading the campaign against modern slavery. insulation and improvements to our homes that we [907534] Wendy Chamberlain (North East ) (LD): I need to deliver across the whole of the country as part entered Parliament this morning and checked in using of our green industrial revolution, so the hon. Lady is the contact tracing app, and when I return to Fife spot on, and I will be writing to her about that case. 373 14 OCTOBER 2020 374

Point of Order Dogs and Domestic Animals (Accommodation and Protection) 12.34 pm Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order Dawn Butler (Brent Central) (Lab): On a point of No. 23) order, Mr Speaker. The Remote Participation in House 12.39 pm of Commons Proceedings Bill stands in my name and Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con): I beg to move, was due to have its Second Reading on Friday, and was That leave be given to bring in a Bill to establish rights to keep originally tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for dogs and other animals in domestic accommodation; to make Swansea West (Geraint Davies). In the light of your provision about the protection of the welfare of dogs and other comments earlier today, will you please advise me how domestic animals; and for connected purposes. we can best ensure that the Bill becomes a reality for the A home is where special moments are created—living House? with a family, friends or companions. Moving into a new home is a normal part of life, but what if every time Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for giving you move you face the threat of being separated from notice of the point of order. A decision to defer the someone you love? Can a house or a flat ever be a home Second Reading of a Bill and the Government’s position if you are forced to abandon a family member just to on the matters that it may contain are not matters for move in? the Chair, as she will be aware. However, in making the You, Mr Speaker—an animal-loving Speaker—will point of order, she has placed her hopes on the record know better than anyone that animals truly are members and I am sure that that will be listened to by those on of one’s family. Having owned two Staffordshire Bull the Treasury Bench. I am sympathetic, but unfortunately Terriers—Spike and Buster—I know how close the it is not my decision. bonds between dog and owner can be and how devastating In order to allow the safe exit of hon. Members it is to lose them. participating in this item of business and the safe arrival Dogs are more than man’s best friend: they are equal of those participating in the next, I am suspending the members of the family. For most people, being separated House for three minutes. from their dog is no different from being separated from their brother or sister. Sadly, pet owners who move into 12.35 pm rented accommodation face the reality that their family Sitting suspended. could be torn apart, because most landlords in Britain have unnecessary bans or restrictions on pet ownership. Virtual participation in proceedings concluded (Order, For those who depend on the companionship of their 4 June). dog and need their loving friend to be with them—especially those who live alone—such restrictions are nothing less BILL PRESENTED than discrimination, cruel to animal and owner alike. My Bill would end that discrimination, giving people ELECTION CANDIDATES (ALL-ETHNIC-MINORITY who own a dog or other domestic animal the right to SHORTLISTS) have it live in their rented home, provided the owner Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) demonstrated responsibility and care for the animal. Wera Hobhouse presented a Bill to amend the Equality My Bill will henceforth be known as Jasmine’s law, Act 2010 to permit political parties to use all-ethnic-minority after a Weimaraner who is owned by the Adams family shortlists for the selection of election candidates; and in Surrey. Jasmine lives with Maria, but her son Jordan for connected purposes. Adams would dearly love to accommodate Jasmine at his home apartment—if only for a few days or when his Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on mother goes on holiday. Owing to restrictions imposed Friday 12 March 2021, and to be printed (Bill 196). on tenants, Jordan is one of the millions of people across the UK who is prevented from having his beloved pet to stay with him. Many pet owners are, like Jordan, devastated to find that moving out of the family home means being separated from an animal who is such an important part of their lives. The no-pet clause on rented accommodation means that someone cannot have a dog over for even a short period for fear of recriminations or even losing their home. Instead of a dog staying with a familiar person, often they must be placed in a kennel, which can be a deeply stressful and unhappy experience for the dog. Such discrimination must now end. Some people who move to a new home are able to find somewhere for the animal to live, with trusted friends or family, but others are tragically forced to abandon their pets altogether, unable to find anywhere to live where the pet will be accepted. Sadly, these no-pet rules are cited by Battersea Dogs & Cats Home as the second biggest factor behind people giving up their dogs, with 200 dogs a year being handed in for rehoming simply because of landlord restrictions. 375 Dogs and Domestic Animals 14 OCTOBER 2020 Dogs and Domestic Animals 376 (Accommodation and Protection) (Accommodation and Protection) [Andrew Rosindell] mandatory for vets to scan animals brought into their surgery, ensuring that they are with their rightful owners. These rules have the cruellest impact on the homeless, This will have the added advantage of helping to find with many relying on companion animals for support both lost and stolen dogs. I commend the amazing work and affection while living on the street. Too often, when of Debbie Matthews and the group that she founded, they are offered housing by local authorities or housing Vets Get Scanning, which has campaigned for this for associations, this comes with a no-pet clause. If they over a decade and was championed by her late father, turn down an offer of accommodation, they are told the great Sir Bruce Forsyth. Part of the approval process that they are making themselves intentionally homeless for a pet to be moved into accommodation would be to and refused further housing assistance. Take the tragic have their microchip scanned by a vet to ensure that case of John Chadwick, a homeless man who ended his they were registered on a national database. own life after the only housing option his local council It cannot be right that so many pet owners in this provided was one that meant separation from his pets. country face the harsh reality that finding a place to live It is surely time to end these no-pets clauses that have might mean permanent separation from the animal caused so much pain and heartache for so many people. they love so much. Surely, as we take back control of Of course, many landlords have legitimate concerns, our laws, now is the time to ensure that this nation of which I do not want to dismiss lightly. It is true that animal lovers remains a world leader in animal welfare. irresponsibly owned pets can be a cause of damage, If France, Belgium, Germany and Switzerland can outlaw misery and suffering to the animals themselves, to the blanket restrictions on pets in rented accommodation, neighbours and to those who manage and own properties. why can we not do the same here in the United Kingdom? We must therefore ensure that landlords’ concerns are The Government’s intention to remove no-pet clauses met and that pet owners pass the test of responsible from their model tenancy agreement is a step in the ownership by obtaining a certificate from a vet before right direction, but it does not go far enough. Jasmine’s moving in, confirming that they have a healthy,well-behaved law will replace the outdated and unfair no-pet clauses animal and are considered to be a responsible owner. that many private and social landlords impose, setting For a dog, a responsible ownership checklist would out an alternative, streamlined system that will mean include being vaccinated and microchipped and being peace of mind for landlords, tenants and, of course, the responsive to basic training commands, with appropriate animals themselves. At its core, my Bill represents the rules applying, of course, to other animals. values of personal responsibility, individual rights and I hope that landlords, local authorities and housing animal welfare, and today I seek to enshrine in law these associations listening to this debate today will consider important freedoms applicable to all responsible pet overhauling their current policies in favour of one along owners throughout the nation. I commend Jasmine’s the lines laid out in the Bill, and consider more fairly the law and this Bill to the House. rights of millions of responsible owners across the land. Question put and agreed to. Particularly at a time when so many people are isolated, Ordered, being able to own a dog can be vital to a person’s wellbeing and, of course, to their mental health. If That Andrew Rosindell, Robert Halfon, Andrea tenants can prove that they are responsible owners and Leadsom, Mrs Sheryll Murray, Sir David Amess, Theresa that their pets are well behaved and appropriate for the Villiers, Henry Smith, Sir , Chris accommodation, there is no reason to deny them the Bryant, Tim Farron, Ian Lavery and Ms Lyn Brown right to live together with their animal companion. present the Bill. Microchipping is also a key element of my Bill, which Andrew Rosindell accordingly presented the Bill. will stipulate that all cats and dogs kept in rented Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on accommodation must be microchipped. It will also be Friday 29 January, and to be printed (Bill 197). 377 14 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Economic Support Package 378

restrictions in any case. Every week of that inaction will Opposition Day hit business and consumer confidence, costing more jobs and livelihoods, with more businesses going to the [12TH ALLOTTED DAY] wall. The question is not whether we can afford a circuit breaker. The question is whether we can afford to Covid-19 Economic Support Package continue with a Government who duck taking hard choices until they are forced into them and who seem Mr Speaker: I inform the House that I have selected unable to stand apart from their chaotic lurching from the amendment in the name of the Prime Minister. week to week to assess what our country needs and take decisive action. 12.50 pm That circuit break must be used to fix test and trace, Anneliese Dodds (Oxford East) (Lab/Co-op): I beg to devolving it to local areas, so that we can protect our move, NHS, get control of the virus and start building economic That this House believes the Government should do what it confidence back up again, and it must be accompanied takes to support areas with additional local restrictions, currently by support for jobs and businesses. We stand ready to the North of England and parts of the Midlands, Scotland, work with the Government to ensure that that is put in Wales and Northern Ireland, by reforming the Job Support place, so that no one is pushed into poverty for doing Scheme so it incentivises employers to keep staff on rather than the right thing. letting them go; ensuring no-one is pushed into poverty when they do the right thing; providing clear, consistent and fair Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): SAGE warns funding that goes hand-in-hand with the imposition of new that a circuit breaker is unavoidable. I wonder whether restrictions, including using the £1.3 billion underspend on the the Prime Minister’s words will come back to haunt him grants fund to support local jobs; fixing gaps in support for the self-employed; and extending the ban on evictions. in a couple of weeks’ time as he admits that and does yet another U-turn. The best restrictions in the world We are at a critical moment for our country. Infection will work only if people have financial security and can rates are rising, and the economic outlook is worsening. afford to comply. Is it not the case that offering only It is more vital than ever that this Government get a 67% of pay to somebody on minimum wage does not grip on both the health and the economic crises. There cover 100% of the bills that they have to pay? That is are some who seek to pit people’s health against our something that needs attention, as is the £1.3 billion economy, but we all know that our country has suffered underspend for all those people who, so far, have had no a double tragedy: the highest excess death rate in Europe help in this crisis at all. and the deepest recession in the G7. The predominant reason why many expect our recovery to proceed more Anneliese Dodds: My hon. Friend puts his finger on slowly than that in other countries is the continued it. It appears that experts are very clear that we are severe impact of the public health crisis in the UK. It facing an unavoidable situation of rising infections that has been suggested that the Chancellor blocked proposals will not be stemmed unless action is taken. They predict from the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies for that the Government will be forced into this position a circuit breaker. He can now, if he wishes to, intervene eventually, so why cannot we have decisiveness at this on me and set the record straight. stage. Why can that nettle not be grasped now when it will be more effective, rather than leaving this unavoidable Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): May I choice for many weeks into the future when it will be intervene? less effective? I will come to the other issues raised by Anneliese Dodds: I asked the Chancellor to intervene my hon. Friend about the paucity of targeted support on me. I am willing for another Member to, and perhaps in a moment. the Chancellor will follow. Time and again, Labour has had to drag Ministers to this House to explain what they will do to tackle the job Kevin Hollinrake: The hon. Member mentioned “a” crisis, and, time and again, those Ministers have either circuit breaker, but the guidance from SAGE says that ducked the question entirely or come up with a short-term “multiple” circuit breakers might be required to bring scheme that needs to be patched up again within weeks. the virus under control. How many jobs does she believe The deserve better. To protect jobs—be those circuit breakers would cost? that during a circuit breaker or under the Government’s new three-tier scheme—we need a functioning system Anneliese Dodds: I was just about to go on to say that of wage support, a proper safety net to prevent people the Government’s current stance is costing jobs and falling into poverty, and economic support for local leading to reduced business confidence. If we continue areas that goes hand in hand with the imposition of as we are, without taking control of the public health additional restrictions. Right now, we do not have any situation, we will see a worse situation for jobs and of those things. businesses in our country. It appears that that will be the only intervention that I will receive. Cherilyn Mackrory (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): I am astounded by what the Labour party is saying today. It is clear that blocking a circuit breaker does not How can the hon. Lady explain her position to my make sense for the health of our population or for our constituents in Truro and Falmouth, where the infection economy. Government Members need a reality check. rate is incredibly low? The best form of support for the One in four people in our country are subject to localised people working in Truro and Falmouth is for their restrictions. We have already experienced a record rise businesses to continue as they are for as long as possible. in quarterly redundancies. Without action, we face the prospect of infections rising yet again, with more and Anneliese Dodds: I respectfully suggest to the hon. more areas coming under localised restrictions and the Lady that she reads those SAGE papers. When she Government eventually being forced into more national reads them— 379 Covid-19 Economic Support Package14 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Economic Support Package 380

Cherilyn Mackrory: I have. of State for Health and Social Care, the hon. Member for Leicester South (Jonathan Ashworth), was right to Anneliese Dodds: I am very pleased and grateful that say yesterday that what the hon. Lady is now suggesting she has. She will then understand SAGE’s prediction would be disastrous. that the infection is rising across the country, including in rural areas and coastal areas. Unless we take action Anneliese Dodds: I regret to say that the hon. Member, and deal with that now, the problems that we are for whom I have a lot of respect, is sadly confused. It experiencing around business confidence, which are would have been useful if he had listened to the point costing jobs and forcing businesses to the wall, will only that I just made, which was to provide contrast to the continue. We need to give ourselves a fighting chance support that was provided to the Leicester area, specifically that we can approach Christmas, which is so important focused on businesses. I believe that negotiation occurred for businesses in this country, without the current rising through the local business improvement district, the levels of infection. I am concerned about the future of local enterprise partnership and local authorities, to this economy, and I want a Government who have that ensure that that support was there for businesses—for long-sighted approach, rather than one who lurch from his area, yes. Can he please intervene on me now to say crisis to crisis. which other areas of the country subject to additional restrictions have received funding specifically focused We should have had a back-to-work Budget in July, on businesses of that type? No, he cannot, because that but, instead, we got a summer statement, including a support has not been provided to other places in the last-minute bonus scheme that will see £2.6 billion of same manner as it was provided to Leicester. This lack public money handed over to firms that do not need it. of consistency is causing enormous problems for local In September, Labour set out three steps for a better, authorities. more secure economic future to recover jobs, retrain workers and rebuild business. Instead, after we summoned Neil O’Brien rose— him to the House, we got the Chancellor’s winter economy plan and a wage support scheme that does not meet the Anneliese Dodds: Perhaps the hon. Member has core test of incentivising employers to keep staff on discovered another area; I am happy to take his intervention. part-time rather than let them go. Two weeks later, the Chancellor was back trying to fix problems with that Neil O’Brien: The hon. Lady invited an intervention; scheme, as it became rapidly apparent that the health I thought it would be unchivalrous not to provide one. crisis was careering away from the Government and Money was provided for my constituency because pubs economic support was not keeping pace. Last Friday had been shut. Yesterday, the Labour party voted against and this Monday, we had yet more announcements, shutting pubs at 10 pm, but in favour of shutting down which create as many questions as the answer. the entire economy instead. The idea that that is a I regret that these issues were not faced up to largely proportionate response is absurd. yesterday during the urgent question that I brought to Anneliese Dodds: I regret that the hon. Member did the House, so I will try again. This time I can ask the not answer the question that I asked him, which was Chancellor directly. Why have the Government adopted whether he knew of any other area of the country that such an inconsistent approach to financial support for had been treated in the same way as his constituency by businesses in affected areas? Leicester,Oadby and Wigston being provided with business-related support. He could had to wait a month to get the £7.30 per head in not answer that question; the reason why is that it support that they were belatedly provided with. The appears that no other area has been. A radically different initial funding for Liverpool City Region, Warrington, approach is being taken to different parts of the country, Hartlepool and Middlesbrough was, in contrast, £3.49 a so local leaders and local businesses cannot plan because head, but not for businesses; that was for covid-related they do not know whether or not support will be there. action. Last Friday, the Chancellor rebranded £100 million Mr Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): Will my hon. of funding for local councils as surge funding, with no Friend give way? details of how it would be allocated and the admission that £20 million had already been spent. On Monday, Anneliese Dodds: I will make a little progress, if my the Prime Minister spoke of more funding to local hon. Friend does not mind. authorities, but again without details of how that money We need to find out from the Government why they would be allocated—although apparently not to support have not used the £1.3 billion underspend from the local businesses. This situation is a mess. When local grants programme, which was already allocated as business leaders are crying out for certainty, they need to know support, for local areas to direct at businesses that need that if additional restrictions are coming, there is a clear that help. Yesterday, the Chief Secretary said that the and agreed formula for how much economic support money was not available for use now because, in his they receive and how it will be deployed. words, “the need” had been “met”. That beggars belief. The need clearly has not been met. The Government Neil O’Brien (Harborough) (Con): The hon. Lady should reallocate that funding on a consistent basis, so mentioned Oadby and Wigston in my constituency; the that businesses in the hardest-hit areas can get support. Chancellor moved incredibly quickly to provide extra What possible justification can there be for local business support to my constituency. We had a different areas getting control of test, trace and isolate only once lockdown from that everywhere else and it worked: we they are into tier 3 and thus facing rapidly rising infection have brought cases down from 160 to 25 per 100,000. rates? As the debate following this one will indicate, the That is an example of why the local approach is the Government have poured vast amounts of public money right one and why her colleague the shadow Secretary into private contracts to deliver a system that is simply 381 Covid-19 Economic Support Package14 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Economic Support Package 382 not working. Labour-run Wales has shown how locally manufacturing capacity.I regret that the hon. Gentleman delivered tracing is vastly more effective than a contracted- did not listen to what not just Labour but SAGE out system. When will the Chancellor’s Government experts had been stating clearly: this Government will stop dithering, follow the evidence and get a grip on end up being potentially forced into a situation where test, track and trace? they must apply additional restrictions. Why wait until a time when restrictions will be less effective when we Chris Elmore (Ogmore) (Lab): One of the key benefits will have had many weeks of reduced business confidence of the Welsh system is that it allows local government to for the very restaurants that I, too, am deeply concerned track and trace where people may have had the virus about, which will have suffered from week upon week of and been in contact with someone. Does my hon. reduced demand? I say: take decisive action now; that is Friend agree that if the UK Government could apply what is needed. that to England, it could save many people’s lives? In key sectors, the cost of keeping on more staff on Anneliese Dodds: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for fewer hours is higher in the UK scheme than under making that point. I believe that, actually, the contact comparable initiatives in Germany, France and the rate is radically higher—above 90%, which is very Netherlands, even when the poorly-designed job retention significantly different. We are in a peculiar situation bonus is factored in. Businesses want to do the right where our Government appear to believe that it only thing by their staff, but the Chancellor is pushing them makes sense for local areas to get those powers, and the to flip a coin and decide who stays and who goes. When resources necessary to deliver them, once infections are will he fix the flaws in the job support scheme? already at an extremely high rate—once they are in The Government have also left yawning gaps in their tier 3. I find this very peculiar. Perhaps the Chancellor offer for the self-employed. From the start of next can explain why that support is only provided once month, the support available will fall from 70% of local areas are at a high infection level. pre-crisis profits to just 20%. That might be an appropriate Adequate support must be provided to those at the policy if we were seeing a healthy economic recovery sharpest end of this crisis—those working in businesses and rising consumer demand, but that is, very sadly, not that have been closed for public health reasons. The the case. We need a targeted scheme that works for expansion of the job support scheme to closed businesses those self-employed people for whom business is still acknowledges an obvious gap in the original scheme. nothing like back to normal. Months on from the start The Government maintain that, with their changes to of the crisis and the first package of economic support, universal credit, the lowest-paid workers will receive up there are still too many people who have fallen through to 88% of their previous income, but that ignores the the gaps. The Government’s message to those people is continuing problems that the Government refuse to fix just, “You’re on your own—sink or swim.” That is not with universal credit and allied areas of policy. Why good enough. So I ask again: what will the Government have they still not uprated the local housing allowance do to help those who have been excluded from support to median market rents so that affected people can so far? cover their housing costs? Why will they not extend the ban on evictions? Why have they retained the benefit Several hon. Members rose— cap, now affecting twice as many people as at the start of this crisis? Why have they not abolished the two-child Anneliese Dodds: I will take one last intervention. I limit on universal credit and tax credits? Will the am aware that there are many who want to speak in this Government follow the previous Labour Government debate. and reduce the waiting period for support from the Andrew Griffith (Arundel and South Downs) (Con): mortgage interest scheme? The hon. Lady makes important points about the difficulties The list of questions goes on and on. It includes faced by so many people in the economy. Will she really significant ones about firms that have not been explain how they will be helped by closing down the legally required to close but whose business has been entire economy? It is the madhouse of fixing the windows heavily impacted by the imposition of new restrictions, or knocking the whole house down. so they will struggle to keep staff on for even a third of their hours. For those firms, the Chancellor’s job support Anneliese Dodds: Unfortunately, the hon. Gentleman scheme too often fails to incentivise businesses to bring does not appear to be aware that the windows are back more staff part-time, instead of keeping some already broken and that, in a quarter of this country, we full-time and letting others go. see those businesses having been subject to additional restrictions. None of them has moved out of that, aside Jonathan Gullis (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Con): When from in Luton, which appears, sadly, to be in a difficult the hon. Lady talks about Government intervention situation again now. and support, will she welcome the eat out to help out scheme, which meant that ceramic tableware manufacturers We see the Government’s own expert advisers saying in Stoke-on-Trent saw orders massively increase? Will that they are likely to be forced into a position where she personally write to them to apologise for saying that additional restrictions have to be applied in the future, she wants to shut down the hospitality sector and when they will be less effective, because by that point therefore make sure that the kilns never start up again? infection will have been spread further across this country. So the question is whether action is taken decisively Anneliese Dodds: I have been very grateful to when it can be most effective or whether we push this representatives of the ceramics sector, with whom I back, the costs increase, business confidence continues have had a lot of dialogue. I am very concerned about to erode, people continue to lose their jobs and businesses their situation. I am concerned about the lack of targeted continue to go to the wall. That is the question this support that has been provided to maintain our Government need to answer. 383 Covid-19 Economic Support Package14 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Economic Support Package 384

[Anneliese Dodds] to fund our NHS and our valued public services; and they can be measured in the increase in long-term If we are to avoid the bleakest of winters, this health conditions that unemployment causes. Government have to get a grip. We need a national This is not about choosing one side or the other. It is reset. For that to work, we need an economic package not about taking decisions because they are popular. It that acknowledges reality and gets ahead of the problems is not about health versus wealth, or any other simplistic we face; a wage support scheme that works properly; a lens we choose to view this moment through. The Prime safety net worthy of the name; and financial support Minister was absolutely right when he set out our desire that goes hand in hand with the imposition of extra for a balanced approach, taking the difficult decisions restrictions. to save lives and keep the R rate down, while doing everything in our power to protect the jobs and livelihoods Angela Richardson (Guildford) (Con): Will the hon. of the British people. The evidence shows that a regional Lady give way? tiered approach is right, because it prevents rushing to Anneliese Dodds: I will not, because so many Members another lockdown the entire country would suffer rather want to come in on this debate. than targeting that support and preventing a lockdown in parts of the country where the virus rates are low. We brought this motion to the House today because the Government have not been doing what it takes to This is an imperfect solution. Wehave been consistently support areas under additional local restrictions.Currently, honest about the difficulties and hard choices that this those are in the north of England and parts of the moment presents. We have heard a lot about the SAGE midlands, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, and advice. The SAGE minutes themselves say that Ministers Members representing those areas know that that is the must consider the case. So I appeal to them to put their constituents’ jobs “associated costs in terms of health and wellbeing” and livelihoods first, and support this Opposition motion. and the economic impacts alongside any epidemiological [Interruption.] assessment. It seems like the only people not prepared to confront that reality are in the Labour party, which is Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab) Shut up! surprising given that just days ago the shadow Health Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Members for Wallasey Secretary said a new national lockdown would be (Ms Eagle) and for Stoke-on-Trent North (Jonathan “disastrous” for society and Gullis) can both be quiet. I want to get on with the “would cause unimaginable damage to our economy and…wellbeing.” business, and I do not want one person to start to entice others. Let us see whether we can make some progress. Mr Perkins: The Chancellor’s response would have Let us have a good, well-mannered debate, as that might more credibility if he was not stood there following be helpful to this House. month after month of failure by a Government whose testing and tracing regime—whose entire approach—got us to this point in the first place. We all recognise how 1.12 pm expensive this is going to be, but it has happened The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Rishi Sunak): I beg because of the failure that he and his party have facilitated. to move an amendment, to leave out from “House” to end and add: Rishi Sunak: The debate following this will address “welcomes the Government’s package of support worth over test and trace. It is worth bearing in mind that more £200 billion to help protect jobs and businesses through the than £12 billion has been invested in our test and trace coronavirus pandemic, including the eight-month long Coronavirus capacity. Testing capacity has increased from simply Job Retention Scheme, Self-Employment Income Support Scheme, 10,000 a day at the start of this crisis to close to £1,000 Job Retention Bonus, unprecedented loan schemes, business 300,000 today, on its way up to half a million, and ours grants and tax cuts; further welcomes the pledge to protect, create and support jobs through measures in the £30 billion Plan for now ranks as one of the most comprehensive testing Jobs such as Eat Out to Help Out, VAT and stamp duty cuts and regimes anywhere in Europe. the £2 billion Kickstart Scheme; acknowledges the further support for jobs with increased cash grants and the expanded Job Support Andrew Griffith: Does my right hon. Friend agree Scheme to support those businesses legally required to close due that, faced with a choice between a national blunt to national or local lockdowns; and further acknowledges that instrument that would wreak enormous economic damage, this is one of the most comprehensive and generous packages of and something that is more finely calibrated region by support anywhere in the world.” region based on the science, there is no choice to make? I very much welcome the opportunity to update Parliament and the country on the economic challenges Rishi Sunak: My hon. Friend is absolutely right: it is we face and our plan to tackle them. My message to a blunt instrument. It would cause needless damage to hon. Members in all parts of the House is simply this: parts of our country where virus rates are low. we must not shy away from the burden of responsibility to take decisions and to lead. We must do this with Several hon. Members rose— honesty and co-operation. We cannot allow the virus to take hold. We must prevent the strain on our NHS from Rishi Sunak: Having spent weeks indulging themselves becoming unbearable, but we must also acknowledge with political attacks on this Government’s efforts to the stark reality of the economic and social impacts of protect jobs, Labour have now flipped and support a another national lockdown. The costs of doing that are blunt national lockdown. They will not say how much not abstract—they are real: they can be counted in jobs damage that will do to jobs or livelihoods, they will not lost, businesses closed and children’s educations harmed; say how they plan to support businesses through it, and they can be measured in the permanent damage done to they do not seem to care about the long-term stability our economy, which will undermine our long-term ability of the public finances. If they did—[Interruption.] 385 Covid-19 Economic Support Package14 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Economic Support Package 386

Mr Speaker: Order. I am sorry, Chancellor. Please, I average. Despite the significant support we have provided, cannot hear the Chancellor. I want to hear him, and I the data is beginning to reveal the true extent of the am sure people outside the House want to hear him, so damage that coronavirus has caused our labour market. please, if he is going to give way—the Chancellor is a The latest statistics published just yesterday show generous man—he will give way. In the meantime, I do employment falling, unemployment rising and welfare not need people shouting. claims rising. The revisions that the Office for National Statistics has made to its previous estimates show that Rishi Sunak: Thank you, Mr Speaker. If they did unemployment was higher than it thought over the care, we would hear from the shadow Chancellor how summer. many jobs Labour’s lockdown would cost. I have talked about facing up to the difficult truths Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): I am grateful clearly, and we are facing an economic emergency, but to the generous Chancellor for giving way. Today, the we are acting on a scale commensurate with this emergency North East Child Poverty Commission said that 35% of as we address my single biggest priority: to protect children in the north-east region are living in poverty. people’s jobs and their livelihoods. We have put in place As a direct result of Conservative policies, we are going a comprehensive plan to protect, support and create to see that number increase. What is he going to do jobs in every region and nation of the United Kingdom. about those children? Through more than £200 billion of support since March, we are: protecting more than 9.5 million jobs through Rishi Sunak: The most vulnerable have been at the the job retention schemes; strengthening our welfare forefront of our mind throughout this crisis, which is safety net with an extra £9 billion for the lowest paid why it is clear from the distributional impact of our and most vulnerable; granting more than £13.5 billion interventions, which was published over the summer, to those who are self-employed, with further grants to that they have benefited those on the lowest incomes the come; and protecting over 1 million small and medium-sized most. It is there in black and white: a Conservative businesses through £100 billion of tax cuts, tax deferrals, Government making sure the most vulnerable are protected direct grants and Government-backed loans. through this crisis. Anyresponsible party of government would acknowledge Kevin Hollinrake: Does my right hon. Friend agree the economic cost of a blunt national lockdown. The that the best way to protect jobs is to keep the economy Labour party may say it has a plan, but be under no open wherever possible? Most other nations are using a illusion: a plan blind to the hard choices we face—a local-restrictions approach to deal with this situation, plan blind to and detached from reality—is no plan including Germany, which is using lockdowns at a at all. district level, not even at a state or county level. Does he agree that that is the best way forward? Ms Angela Eagle: In the Liverpool city region, which contains my constituency of Wallasey, there is £40 million Rishi Sunak: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The of unspent support for business that the Chancellor only sustainable way to protect jobs in the long run is to generously granted in the first wave of the pandemic. have an economy that is open and functioning. No Given that we are in tier 3, will he say today at the amount of support can make up for that. Dispatch Box that he will release that £40 million so There are other things we have done: eased repayment that the local authorities in the Liverpool city region terms on those loans through pay as you grow; delivered can apply that money to help their local businesses on our promise to give the NHS what it needs; backed during this highest level of lockdown that we are suffering hundreds of thousands of young people to find good at the moment? jobs through the kickstart scheme and new investment Rishi Sunak: I know what a difficult time this is for in training and apprenticeships; created green jobs through the hon. Lady and her constituents. With regard to the £2 billion green grant programme; showed that we underspends—I will come on to this later—I think it is are here for our cultural sector, with the cultural recovery wrong to think of them in that way. That was the fund and a further support package for charities; and Government giving an advance to local authorities to invested hundreds of billions of pounds in the largest, make payments to businesses. That was done on the most sustained programme of infrastructure investment basis that every local authority will have a wildly different the UK has seen in decades. That is comprehensive degree of overspend or underspend, which we true up at action to protect the jobs and livelihoods of the British the end of the process. We could equally have asked people. It undermines the credibility of the Labour local authorities to make payments themselves and party that, in the face of all that support, it continues to reimbursed them afterwards. There is significant pretend that insufficient action is being taken. financial support both for her local authority and the businesses in her area that have closed down. That was (York Central) (Lab/Co-op): Will announced by the Prime Minister and I will come on to the Chancellor give way? address that in detail later. It is right that that support is there. Rishi Sunak: I will make some progress. Let me reiterate our plan. The House will be well As the crisis evolves, our economic response will also aware of the gravity of our economic situation. The evolve. What we will see over the winter is a complex latest figures show that our economy grew by 6% in July picture of some businesses able to open safely and and 2% in August, but it remains almost 10% smaller others being ordered to close to control the spread of than it was before coronavirus hit. Business investment the virus. Our winter economy plan provides a toolkit suffered a record fall in the second quarter of this year. to protect jobs and businesses over the difficult weeks Consumer sentiment remains well below its long-run and months to come. The plan has three parts. 387 Covid-19 Economic Support Package14 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Economic Support Package 388

[Rishi Sunak] Opposition suggesting full lockdown or an unlimited extension to furlough—there are no simple solutions. First, the job support scheme will protect jobs in This is a highly complex problem. Every intervention businesses that are open or closed. If businesses can and every support scheme will be nuanced and will have open safely, but with reduced or uncertain demand, the to be regionally effective There are no simple solutions. Government will directly subsidise people’s wages over We should not be looking for simple solutions; we the winter, giving those employers the option to bring should be looking for the right ones. people back to work on shorter hours rather than making them redundant. We are expanding the job Rishi Sunak: As ever, my hon. Friend is spot on. It is support scheme to give more support to businesses that not leadership to shy away from the hard choices and are ordered to close. For people unable to work for one real trade-offs that these decisions take. She is absolutely week or more, their employer will still be able to pay right. them two thirds of their normal salary and the UK The second part of our winter plan is to support Government will cover the cost. This national programme businesses that are legally required to close, and we will benefit people the same wherever they live and heard about that previously. Those businesses will now whatever job they do. be able to claim a cash grant of up to £3,000 per month depending on the value of their property. Those grants Mr Perkins: There seems to be a basic dishonesty at can be used for any business cost and will not need to be the heart of these tier 2 plans. There is no support for repaid. I have also guaranteed £1.3 billion of funding pubs. They are being told that they are allowed to stay for the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Ireland open, but the measures being brought in are making Administrations so that they can choose to do something them unviable. At least with our approach what we similar. The hon. Member for Oxford East asked whether would see is a short-term hit, but then a reduction in the other areas had received that support, and was under rate and more of a chance for us to return to normality. the impression that none other had. I can correct the Will he at least admit that those pubs in tier 2 areas are facts. Bolton is the only other area that has faced not going to have viable businesses and say something hospitality restrictions in that way and Bolton Council about what he will do to support them? has received, at the last count, I believe almost £200,000 of support to compensate its businesses because they Rishi Sunak: I am glad that there has finally been have been closed in a similar way. some acknowledgment that there will be a hit to businesses and jobs from what the Labour party is suggesting. It is Anneliese Dodds: I fear that the Chancellor is confused. right that there is support provided for hospitality, I was not talking about the much-trumpeted local restriction which is why the Government have provided a VAT support grant. He is right; it has been applied so far reduction, a business rates holiday, direct cash grants, only to that one area of Bolton. I was talking about the eat out to help out and now the job support scheme that business support that was delivered to Leicester, Oadby is directly there to support those businesses that are and Wigston, which I believe has not been provided to open and operating but not at the same levels that they any other part of the country. were previously. To give those businesses and their employees certainty, rather than the weeks that I heard Rishi Sunak: It is the same type of support—support about from the hon. Member for Oxford East, this provided to the local authority to help their businesses. scheme will run for six months through to the spring. That was the question the hon. Lady asked my hon. This job support scheme is in line with those in most Friend the Member for Harborough (Neil O’Brien), other European countries and, to support the lowest and I am happy to answer it. paid through this crisis, we have made our welfare The third part of our plan is to provide additional system more generous and responsive too. funding for local authorities. Again, I am happy to correct what may be a misunderstanding of the situation Rachael Maskell: The Chancellor will know from for the hon. Member for Oxford East. It is not the case York’s economic base and the complexity of our economy that that support is only for local authorities in tier 3. that unemployment may rise to 27% in our city. What There is a scaled structure. All local authorities placed additional measures will he put in place to build the into different tiers will receive extra financial support bridge to get us through this really difficult period? The on a per capita basis, using the funding formula that my job support scheme will just not deliver for my constituents. right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary is implementing. Rishi Sunak: The job support scheme was widely That funding will be worth up to almost half a billion welcomed not just by businesses groups such as the CBI pounds on a national basis, to support local areas and and the Federation of Small Businesses but by the their public health teams with their local response, TUC, which I was happy to work closely with to design whether that is more enforcement, compliance or contact the scheme. However, she is right. That is not the only tracing. That comes on top of the almost £1 billion thing that we will do to support jobs, which is why we announced by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister have put in place the £2 billion kickstart scheme to that we will provide to all local authorities, as we talk to provide fully funded job placements for those young them about their needs over this difficult period, to ensure people most affected by this crisis and most at risk of that they can provide the services they need to. That unemployment. Thousands of those young kickstarters also comes on top of the £3.7 billion already provided will be starting their new jobs this autumn. to local authorities. This Government are dealing with the world as it is. Miriam Cates (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Con): While the hon. Member for Oxford East may not wish Does my right hon. Friend agree that, while we all want to confront that reality, I do not have that luxury. We simple solutions to this crisis—whether that is the cannot just let the virus take hold, but nor can we 389 Covid-19 Economic Support Package14 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Economic Support Package 390 blithely fall into another national spring-style lockdown, employee to work at least a third of the contracted time, as the Labour party wants to, rather than following our and the remaining wages are split into three. The UK regional, tiered and localised approach. We are dealing Government and the company pay a third each and the with a once-in-a-century event, and I can assure Members worker loses the rest. That is, I am afraid, completely on both sides of the House that the Government are absurd. Most people simply cannot afford to lose a doing all they can to support the country through this third of their salary. They do not get a third off their crisis. rent, a third off their fuel and a third off their shopping We need a balanced approach, we need a consistent when they go to Tesco. approach, and—as you will have seen, Mr Speaker—we I turn to the issue of hospitality. Yesterday, James also want a co-operative approach. But any responsible Watt, the owner of BrewDog, had a conversation with party calling for a shutdown of our entire country Scotland’s First Minister, , to discuss should be honest about the potential economic and supporting jobs in the hospitality sector, which is a social costs of such a dramatic measure. At the very massive priority for us. He was very clear in his agreement least, they should have the integrity to acknowledge with the First Minister that the end of the job retention that what they are proposing will cause significant scheme will lead to a “a tsunami of unemployment”. damage to people’s lives and livelihoods. I have never He continues to urge the Chancellor to extend the said that there are easy choices or cost-free answers. scheme, stating: This is the reality we face, and it would be dishonest to “The proposed ‘Job Support Scheme’ will not protect jobs.” ignore that truth. So no more political games and cheap This is not me, as an SNP MP, saying to the Chancellor shots from the sidelines. The Labour party can either be that this is inadequate. This is somebody who is highly part of this solution or part of the problem. It is called respected in the hospitality sector, and the Chancellor leadership, but from them, I am not holding my breath. would do well to listen to him and not fiddle on his phone. Mr Speaker: There will be a four-minute limit on speeches after the SNP spokesperson. I call David Linden. Anthony Mangnall (Totnes) (Con): It is surprising to hear the hon. Member talk about the need to support 1.32 pm tourism and hospitality sector when the SNP is putting David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP): Recently the forward rather puritanical bans on alcohol sales, no Government have quite rightly given stark and serious longer helping pubs and no longer helping the businesses warnings of a second wave of coronavirus cases, with in that sector. How can he lecture the Government on the numbers in hospitals increasing, the infection rate what form of support they should be giving after everything rising and further restrictions being put in place across that they have done on the 15% cut? the UK. While my SNP colleagues and I welcome what the Chancellor of the Exchequer has said recently, it is David Linden: That was a wonderful addition to try clear that he and his Government are not acting with to be a nice Parliamentary Private Secretary, but I am the urgency that the situation deserves. Quite simply, afraid that the hon. Gentleman clearly has absolutely the plans that he has set in place do not go far enough. no idea about the £40 million package put forward by I have had countless constituents get in touch over the Scottish Government for the hospitality sector.Perhaps recent weeks who are concerned about potential job when he is sitting on the south coast of England dreaming losses and financial insecurity, with many wondering up these lovely interventions to please his Whips, he how they will get through the tough winter months would do well to read the full briefing paper. ahead. The SNP has consistently warned the Chancellor The leaders of businesses across the UK agree that that his economic plans, as they stand, are inadequate. ending the furlough and job retention scheme is a very We have repeatedly called for support for the industries irresponsible and reckless decision, so to avoid mass suffering most during the pandemic, for an extension of redundancies, the UK Government must extend the the furlough scheme and for the increase in universal furlough scheme in full. With the huge rise in covid-19 credit to be made permanent, but those calls have, I am that we have seen so far with the second wave, and with afraid, fallen on deaf ears. It is my hope today that the the winter months approaching, now is not the time to Government will listen to what needs to be done, especially be taking chances on job losses. considering the recent serious warnings about the devastating impact of the second wave in which we find Mr Perkins: The hon. Member is absolutely right ourselves. about the appalling health and economic consequences The SNP welcomed the Chancellor’s announcement of this. Do he and his party support the advice from that further support will be given to businesses being SAGE for a two-week circuit-breaker so that we can get forced to close in new local lockdowns. However, that on top of this health crisis and try to give the Government scheme,like the other financial packages that the Chancellor time to get test and trace to work? Does he support has announced, does not go far enough. From 1 November, what the Labour party has called for? the Government will pay two thirds of each employee’s salary for businesses forced to close in new local lockdowns, David Linden: One of the things that we are seeing in but that does not apply to workers whose employers Scotland is that test and trace is working a lot better, cannot afford wages due to poor trading conditions, and that is because we have not hived it off to, for rather than any new Government lockdowns. For them, example, Serco. We have been very clear that we will from 1 November, the furlough will be replaced by the follow the scientific advice and we will do our very best new job recovery scheme, whereby the Government will to get that balance. That is what we have seen with the pick up a maximum of just 22% of pay. To be eligible restrictions that came into place last week in Scotland. for the job recovery scheme, a company must pay an We will see how that goes. We are always keeping things 391 Covid-19 Economic Support Package14 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Economic Support Package 392

[David Linden] creative, long-term support such as universal incomes, or through universal credit and all the social consequences under review, but the reality is that we need to follow that come from long-term unemployment and taking us the advice and get a balanced approach. That is exactly back to the Thatcherite 1980s. what we are doing, and I am sure that we will see that bearing fruit. David Linden: I agree with my hon. Friend, but I have I turn to the issue of the excluded 3 million. The SNP to say that I did give the UK Government a degree of has consistently and continually raised the 3 million praise at the beginning of the pandemic, because it did who were excluded from the Chancellor’s initial financial seem that they were moving in a way that perhaps was support packages back in the spring. Let us be clear not part of traditional Tory ideology, with a lot more that the Treasury continues, I am afraid, to exclude state intervention and a lot more Government support. artists, freelancers and the newly self-employed from I think there were quite a few of us in this House who, these recent economic plans. Three million people were while we would disagree enormously on the politics, shut out of the vital financial support that they desperately welcomed the fact that the Chancellor was willing to be needed during the first wave of the pandemic and they innovative and try new things. were left to face huge financial insecurity, with their One thing I would say is that nobody prepares us for livelihoods and businesses put at risk. Rather than a global pandemic. Politicians and people in this House listening to the calls of these 3 million people, the have seen recessions and people have seen wars, but Chancellor has decided to leave behind the self-employed nobody prepares us for a pandemic. Yes, there has to be yet again in his economic plans, with a 70% replacement a degree of flexibility on the part of all of us in this of profits being replaced in November with just 20%. House, but the thing I am most concerned about is Another group that has repeatedly been excluded that the British Government seem to have moved away from the Chancellor’s financial packages has been the from those creative, innovative solutions they had at arts and culture sector. We saw this week the closure of the beginning of the year. We now find ourselves in all Cineworld theatres across the UK, including the one the midst of a second wave, and all of a sudden that in my constituency in Parkhead. I again call on him to dynamism and creativity the Chancellor has been credited provide sector-specific support for the arts and culture with seems to have gone away, because of the pressure sector, which we know will continue to suffer during the that comes from people on the 1922 committee. I do not think that people on the whole are going to forgive that. second wave of the pandemic. [Interruption.] I hear the hon. Member for South Suffolk (James Cartlidge) Kevin Hollinrake: Does the hon. Member agree with chuntering away that the Chancellor has just done that, the Opposition that there should be multiple circuit but many people in our constituencies in the arts and breakers, and if so, is that what the policy will be in culture sector make it clear to us that that support does Scotland? not go far enough. If the Chancellor has done that, why is Cineworld in Parkhead closing? David Linden: I am not sure that the official Opposition I have described thus far a very tough image of are proposing multiple circuit breaks, to be fair to them, countless jobs being at risk. Many sectors are vulnerable but it is not my job to defend the policy of the Labour and some businesses are wondering if they will make it party. However, what I will defend is the approach of to the new year, but the rising cases should emphasise to the SNP Scottish Government, who are trying to do the House that we are still in the midst of this pandemic, this in a balanced way, but we would like to see a lot which has already delivered severe blows to people’s more financial flexibility to do that. It would help if the incomes and financial security, with the most vulnerable UK Government gave us those financial powers. That is people facing a disproportionate economic hit. That is what I would say to the hon. Gentleman on that. why the SNP has repeatedly called upon the Government I want to come on to that very point, and highlight to make the £20 increase to universal credit permanent, the work that the Scottish Government have done in especially after the latest findings from the Institute for supporting business during the second wave of the Fiscal Studies, warning that 4 million families could see pandemic. The Scottish Government’s total package for their support slashed if the Tory Government refuses to businesses is over £2.3 billion. That is more than the make that £20 uplift permanent. consequentials received from the UK Government. As I The Joseph Rowntree Foundation has highlighted mentioned to the hon. Member for Totnes (Anthony that nearly three quarters of a million more people, Mangnall), the Scottish Government are making an including 300,000 children, could be forced into poverty additional £40 million available to support businesses if the uplift is not made permanent. That must serve as that will be affected by the new measures, and will work a wake-up call for the Government. The Chancellor with affected sectors in the coming days. I am in no cannot continue to turn a blind eye to the vast inequality doubt of that. My city of Glasgow is one of those that that exists right across the UK. With the winter months have been under local lockdown restrictions, and the approaching, the poorest and most vulnerable people restaurants and bars in my constituency have had to will suffer the most from the Chancellor’s economic shut down, but we have recognised when we have asked plans, and it is quite clear that he has a choice in front of them to shut down, which is a way of trying to reduce him and that he needs to do much better by them. the spread of the virus, that support must be coming. The Scottish Government will continue to discuss (Glasgow North) (SNP): Is that not with businesses how the support package we have offered exactly right? One way or the other, the Government are can mitigate some or all of the employer’s contribution going to have to pay for this. They are going to have to to the UK job retention scheme. We have put in place a meet the costs, and they can either do that by extending £230 million “restart the economy” capital stimulus job support schemes by looking at really imaginative, package to help stimulate the economy following the 393 Covid-19 Economic Support Package14 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Economic Support Package 394 pandemic. We have announced details of a £38 million they want to see these powers being transferred to package of support for innovative early stage businesses. Scotland so we can take our own decisions on these We have committed £2.2 million of funding to the issues. Music Venue Trust, which will provide stability to grassroots music venues over the coming months. ( East) (SNP): Does my hon. What all this should highlight is that the UK Friend not think the Chancellor’s intervention was rather Government’s financial plans have been and continue to peculiar? The Chancellor is, of course, absolutely right be inadequate—excluding the self-employed, freelancers that the Scottish Government can set a Budget, and artists; prematurely ending the furlough scheme; notwithstanding that it would be blind, but, depending and refusing to make permanent the £20 increase in on the Chancellor’s decisions, it may lead to subsequent universal credit. Where we have had the power, the in-year cuts or in-year changes. I am sure this Chancellor Scottish Government have spent £6.5 billion on tackling would not tolerate it if someone else was setting part of covid—above the Barnett consequentials—and they are his Budget. doing all they can and all within their powers to support David Linden: I thank my hon. Friend for putting businesses across Scotland. that on the record. That is the issue at hand. There is only so much that I do not want to detain the House too much. In the Scottish Government can do when the vast majority conclusion, SNP MPs have stood up in this Chamber of Scotland’s tax and spending decisions are taken here and made calls for the UK Government to do the right in Westminster. The fact is that the Government cancelling thing and support the public through the second wave the UK Budget simply demonstrates that Scotland remains of covid-19 cases. What they have put on the table so far an afterthought for the Tories. I would be more than does not go far enough, and that is why we will vote for happy to give way to the Chancellor if he can stand up the motion before the House tonight. I am grateful for and give some sort of clarity to Scotland’s Cabinet the House’s forbearance. Secretary for Finance about what budget we are supposed to set when the Government have just gone ahead in this way. 1.47 pm Mike Wood (Dudley South) (Con): Hospitality is one Rishi Sunak: I have addressed this previously, in this of Britain’s biggest employers. Some 3.2 million people place and others. There is absolutely no bar on the across the country rely on hospitality for their jobs, Scottish Government setting a Budget in advance of including 4,300 of my constituents in Dudley South. the UK Budget. The fiscal framework itself allows for My right hon. Friend the Chancellor has always been a that very possibility. That is exactly what happened at real and true friend of the beer and pubs sectors, in the start of this year, so there is simply no reason why particular. He knows how much they have been affected that cannot happen. The OBR forecasts were provided by this pandemic, and he has delivered a comprehensive as normal this autumn. Those forecasts are used by and unprecedented economic support package. Without officials to make all the necessary calculations. It is such a support package, many thousands of pubs and simply wrong to suggest that the Scottish Government breweries would simply not have survived the spring. are unable to set a Budget until the UK Government They would not have got through the first phase of this have. outbreak. David Linden: Conservative Governments used to be I do not know whether the Chancellor has seen his really good on upholding the rule of law,and Conservative rather fetching likeness on posters in pubs up and down Governments used to be really good when it came to the country, recognising the contribution that many of managing the economy, but we now have a Chancellor those support measures have made to making our pubs who appears to want the Scottish Government to set a and other hospitality viable over the past six months completely blind Budget. For somebody who tries to but, as we are now firmly in a new phase of the advocate the idea of fiscal responsibility, that strikes me pandemic, new measures are vital for those businesses as rather bizarre. that are not necessarily legally compelled to close. For those that are required to close their doors, the grant he People in Scotland are increasingly aware that the has announced, although it may not cover the whole only way to move forward in terms of protecting our rent and all the fixed costs, will make a substantial economy, managing our own finances and standing on contribution to the costs those businesses incur even our own two feet is with the powers of independence. before they pull a single pint or serve a single meal. With the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill destroying However, there are also enormous challenges facing their hard-fought devolution, more and more Scots are venues that are not legally compelled to close, those in supporting the SNP in calling for independence. tiers 1 and 2, where the legal restrictions that have been An Ipsos MORI poll revealed yesterday that 65% of introduced make it impossible for them to operate. We people in Scotland think Britain is heading in the know that one in 10 pubs has never reopened since “wrong direction” compared with just 12% who think March’s lockdown, and about two thirds of those that Britain is heading in the “right direction”. If we want to did reopen were already trading at a loss last month. continue looking at polling, and I know the UK That was before the introduction of 10 o’clock closing, Government are doing quite a lot of polling on this mandatory table service, and of course the new restrictions issue at the moment—they are being a bit coy about that have come into effect today. releasing it—Ipsos MORI released a poll today showing that 58% of Scots now support Scottish independence. Alex Cunningham: Simon Longbottom of Stonegate, I suggest to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that one of the largest pub groups in the country, has written that backs up the point that people in Scotland can see to me about this, and he could have been making the this UK Government are not doing enough, and therefore speech that the hon. Gentleman is making now. He is 395 Covid-19 Economic Support Package14 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Economic Support Package 396

[Alex Cunningham] there is advice against non-essential travel. It is not essential travel to go to a restaurant, so people are very concerned that in tiers 1 and 2, he gets no help with advised not to go there, but these businesses are not his business costs whatsoever. Can the hon. Gentleman going to get any support to keep their restaurants open give the Chancellor some direct advice on what he needs through the local furlough scheme, and many of them to do about that? will go bust.

Mike Wood: I would not presume to attempt to direct Anthony Mangnall: Will the hon. Lady give way? my right hon. Friend the Chancellor, beyond saying that pubs and hospitality cannot, of course, continue to Maria Eagle: I am afraid I cannot give way, because I operate with almost no income and without additional have only four minutes and some points to make. I support that is proportionate to the legal restrictions apologise to the hon. Gentleman. The point is that they face. Those restrictions may not be in their immediate many businesses and many thousands of jobs are at area. I have heard today from Titanic Brewery, a brewery risk. They will not be getting extra support—I am sorry in Stoke. The majority of its customers are in Liverpool that the Chancellor is not listening—from any of his and Merseyside, which are tier 3 areas, but that brewery schemes in a tier 3 area. Those jobs and businesses are will not receive support even though that is where its going to go. Those people will be unemployed and the customers are based. These pubs need urgent additional Government will still have to pay towards their support. support; otherwise, many of them are going to close May I also make the point in the short time I have left their doors for good and never reopen, which would be that 77,000 people in the Liverpool city region have a huge loss to not only our economy,but our communities. been excluded as self-employed people from any Government support? They are barely hanging on and 1.51 pm now with tier 3 restrictions yet again there is no support for these people or these businesses. What is happening Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) (Lab): I rise will turn this pandemic, by the time Liverpool comes very much to support the motion that my hon. Friend through it—and we will—into a cause of severe poverty the Member for Oxford East (Anneliese Dodds) has and penury. It is not right that the Government are not moved, particularly the part that says doing enough to help. “this House believes the Government should do what it takes to support areas with additional local restrictions”. 1.55 pm My own constituency is in the Liverpool city region, Gareth Davies (Grantham and Stamford) (Con): It is which is under tier 3 restrictions. The Chancellor might a great pleasure to speak in this debate. It is right that not know the unemployment figures for my particular we have this debate and that across the House we talk constituency, but I can tell him that probably not unlike about our national economy. It also gives me a great many other places, they have doubled this year. That is opportunity to thank the Chancellor on behalf of about 5,000 people. thousands of Grantham and Stamford constituents for I also have 15,000 people still on furlough in my the colossal support we have received. Some 16,000 of constituency. I understand that when the Chancellor my constituents were furloughed, 99 of my large businesses introduced the national furlough scheme, he wanted it received coronavirus business interruption loans worth to have an end point, but surely he anticipated that it £33 million and 1,527 small businesses received bounce would be ending when the pandemic was waning. In back loans worth £44 million. We had £23 million of Liverpool, the pandemic is surging. We have no intensive grants and, just last week, we received £230,000 of cultural care unit beds in Liverpool’s main hospitals: they are funding, so I thank the Chancellor on behalf of literally now full, and covid is impacting on other critical care, thousands of my constituents. so the health service in Liverpool is already being There was a £200 billion package of support, which impacted severely.Furlough is going to end in two weeks, was unprecedented and globally competitive, and we and those 15,000 jobs are severely at risk, right in the must be mindful of our public finances. In the first middle of a huge resurgence in the virus. five months of this tax year, our tax receipts were down The Chancellor has introduced his local furlough—that 35%. At the same time, our debt-to-GDP ratio is the is the colloquial term—for those businesses that are highest since 1963. That is a potent combination, which forced by law to close, such as pubs, gyms, and other must be a sobering fact for everybody across this House, such businesses. I think it is wrong that those people regardless of party politics. Therefore, it is right that we who benefit from that, especially if they are on the have a job support scheme that targets support to those minimum wage, should only get 67% of it. The Prime who are facing depressed demand. Minister said today that the figure was 93%, but they I encourage the Chancellor to continue with his should get 100% of the national minimum wage. There £30 billion plan for jobs that will see the creation of should be a floor—let us be clear about that—and I green jobs through the green homes grant and new jobs hope the Government can do something about that. for young people through the kickstart scheme. I encourage One does not have to pay 67% of the bills when furloughed, him to double-down and continue with that package of and food does not cost only 67% of what it normally support. does, so something needs to be done to help those I also encourage the Chancellor to focus on economic people. growth. That is what ultimately will benefit all of our However, the Chancellor should also be very clear country. There are three aspects to that for me. The first that there are many other businesses in my area, such as is to release businesses from the burdens they have had restaurants, that have not been forced to close but for so many years. We saw the success of the Chancellor’s whose business is severely impacted. They have to close policy to reduce VAT on hospitality businesses. We saw at 10 o’clock, and they have fewer tables. In my area, how well received the VAT tax deferrals were by the 397 Covid-19 Economic Support Package14 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Economic Support Package 398

CBI. I encourage the Chancellor to look at regulations Now, Madam Deputy Speaker, if you had said to me to ensure that we manage our national regulatory budget when I was a child that, one day, people would come for to ensure that any new regulation meets robust cost-benefit a mini-break to Merseyside, I would have laughed. analyses. Most people in the country—well, they did not think The second thing I highlight is the mobilisation of that much of us. All that work could go down the drain private investment capital. The future fund—it is not if we are not careful, so I say to the Minister: “Don’t do spoken about in this place enough—is one of the truly it. Help us.” I urge him to make sure that this place of innovative policies of this Chancellor and this Government. opportunity, with these young and growing businesses, It directly intervened and supported pre-revenue, pre-profit has the chance of an economic future that says to businesses. We are the start-up capital of Europe, and anywhere in our nation: “It does not matter how far this Chancellor and this Government supported those down or out you are, Britain offers you hope.” There is start-up entrepreneurs. The key aspect of that policy a way to do that. Although our businesses are young was the fact that it mobilised private capital. We shared and they do not have huge cash reserves, they are the risk with private finance. They brought efficiency to incredibly creative and, crucially, fast growing. If the those investments, and I again urge the Chancellor to Treasury wants to see growth, I heartily recommend it look at initiatives such as a British development bank, backing the creative, cultural and visitor economies which would help mobilise more private capital for such as Merseyside. infrastructure investments in the future. The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen) Finally, the issue of productivity has been pervasive indicated assent. throughout the decades. Whichever Government are in power, productivity has been weak compared with our Alison McGovern: The Minister is nodding, and I international competitors. Infrastructure investment is thank him for it. critical to this, but so, too, are skills. I warmly welcome We really need that practical support now, so, if the the Prime Minister’s efforts and his announcement around Minister is prepared to work with us to help Merseyside—I the lifetime skills guarantee. This will help constituents know that I speak for the shadow Chancellor here as such as mine in Grantham, Stamford and Bourne and well—we will be there. We never want to go back to the in all our villages to get the skills they need for the jobs dark days. I simply ask everyone in this House to work of the future. I warmly applaud the efforts of this together to help. Government to date, and I thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for the opportunity to lay that out. 2.3 pm Neil O’Brien (Harborough) (Con): It is a pleasure to 1.59 pm follow such a good and impassioned speech. Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): I am grateful Let me start with two important bits of context. The for the opportunity to contribute to this debate in what first is that this country and this Government are providing has been a horrendous week for all in Merseyside. I much more support to the economy and to preserve would like to pass my thanks, through the Chancellor jobs and livelihoods than comparable countries. According before he leaves the Chamber, to the Chief Secretary of to a report by the Institute for Fiscal Studies earlier this the Treasury for agreeing to meet Merseyside Members week, while France, Germany and the US are spending of Parliament on the 20th of this month. Just as the about 7% of GDP to support jobs, the UK is spending Chancellor walked out of the Chamber now, it has felt about 12% of GDP, so it is a much more powerful to us in Merseyside that it has just been too difficult to intervention to help people and preserve livelihoods. get the attention of the Treasury during what has been That is quite right, because, of course, we want to avoid the most extraordinarily challenging week. I ask the the scarring effects of unemployment and to keep businesses Economic Secretary to the Treasury to flag up to all his that are viable together. colleagues inside the Treasury how very difficult this The second bit of context leads on from that, which is situation is for us. We have uniquely been placed in the that, according to the IFS, we will borrow £350 billion top tier of restrictions, and that surely demands a this year, or 17% of GDP. It is the case not only that we unique level of attention and a unique set of interventions have never borrowed so much before in our entire to ensure that our economy does not go under. I know peacetime history, but that it is more than we have often that the Minister will take those comments very seriously. borrowed in wartime—more than we borrowed in the I want to take the short time that I have to make a first year of the second world war. Although the vigorous couple of comments about Merseyside, but before I do action that the Chancellor and his Ministers are taking so I just want to thank all those businesses in my is quite right, we would be wrong to think that this is constituency that have been in touch with me. I have consequence free. We must spend on a grand scale and had sobering conversations with the management of we must spend quickly, but we must also spend wisely. the Thornton Hall Hotel, and with James, who runs the Although many Members may suggest different things Rose And Crown pub in Bebington. They have made it we could do additionally, it is important to take stock of absolutely clear to me what the consequences are of this what we have done so far. We have had the furlough situation. They have done everything that could possibly scheme and its equivalent for the self-employed, which have been asked of them. This situation is not of their have helped 18,300 people keep their jobs in my constituency making, and I hope that it is a cross-party endeavour in alone. That is an amazing achievement: a huge public this House to back our hospitality industry. That is sector IT project delivered by civil servants without any particularly important for the Liverpool City region. problems. We should be thankful to them for that We have spent 20 years working to ensure that our fantastic achievement. We now have the job support visitor economy replaced much of what was lost in scheme, which is more generous than the equivalents in de-industrialisation. France and Germany. Unlike in the US, where no such 399 Covid-19 Economic Support Package14 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Economic Support Package 400

[Neil O’Brien] venues by October. In August, the Chancellor announced his flamboyant flagship policy for people to eat out to scheme exists and people are just on their own, we are help out. At the end of August, the Government launched going to help people to keep their jobs. In addition, an entire ad campaign to try to get people back into there are all the other things we are doing to keep jobs: their offices for work. Three weeks later,the Government’s the £57 billion-worth of loans across the different schemes, message changed to say that people in England should with £51 million handed out in my constituency alone; work from home if they could and that pubs and the VAT cut for hospitality and the deferment of VAT restaurants were to be placed under 10 pm curfews to across the board, which has put £30 billion into businesses’ reduce social mixing and slow the spread of the virus. If cash flow; the grants of up to £25,000 for businesses, businesses, employees and this country needed one thing and £20 million going to businesses in my constituency they could have hoped for during this crisis it was some in hospitality alone; the business rates holiday; and the sort of clarity in communication, but the Government eat out to help out scheme, which has pumped half a and this Prime Minister failed to provide even that. million pounds into cafés in my constituency alone. For those in constituencies such as mine, which have As well as protecting jobs, we have also protected spent the past two and a half months in further local incomes. We have boosted universal credit by £1,000 a restrictions, the impact on the local economy has been year; we have spent £8 billion in total on extra welfare far more drastic. The unemployment rate in my constituency and a hardship fund; we have introduced a mortgage is the highest in Yorkshire and the Humber, and seventh holiday that has helped one in six people with a mortgage highest in the country, Figures released today by End in this country; and, most importantly of all, we are Child Poverty show that Bradford West has had the taking steps to create new jobs, with £2 billion for the highest rate of rising child poverty in Yorkshire and the kickstart scheme and a £1,000 bonus to take on new Humber over the past four years. trainees. We are also abolishing stamp duty to get the The Government were late planning the furlough housing market moving and creating new green jobs scheme.The first reported case of the coronavirus confirmed with home insulation schemes. We have the brilliant, by the chief medical officer in England was on 31 January. visionary policy of giving every adult over the age of 23 The Treasury did not announce plans for significant the opportunity to get an A-level qualification wherever funding to support businesses and individuals until the they are in their life course and not writing anybody off Budget on 11 March and it was not clear to the Treasury any more. That is a huge levelling up policy that we can until the following week that the furlough scheme would be proud of. even be needed. The furlough scheme had gaps where A recent report for the think tank Onward pointed people who had started their new job after 11 March out that schemes such as the coronavirus business were not eligible for the scheme and were missed out. interruption loan scheme and the job retention scheme The self-employed income support scheme has failed had helped to keep one in eight businesses in this many, especially the new businesses that have started country going and avoided a rise in unemployment of up, as the scheme pays out based on profit made, not on 5 million people. The Treasury can be rightly proud of actual business turnover, and most businesses make averting that disaster, and I encourage the Chancellor, very little, if any, profit in the first few years, yet they who has been so unorthodox in response to this still have expenditure. unorthodox situation, to keep being unorthodox and Let me share some examples of people in my keep thinking about ways in which we can create jobs. A constituency. We have Art of Acoustics in Clayton. lot of young people have lost out on their education and According to Musicians Union research, 87% of musicians a lot of young people are looking for jobs, and perhaps will be earning less than £20,000 this year, well below we could bring the two of those things together. There the UK average income of £29,600, while 65% are is still more we can do to create employment and new facing financial hardship right now, 47% have been opportunities. forced to look for work outside the music industry, and The last thing I wish to say is about the big picture. 36% do not have any work at all. John and Lauren, Local lockdowns do work. Leicester’s did work, as we landlords of The New Inn pub in Thornton in my brought the cases down from 160 per 100,000 to 25 per constituency, said today: “It’s the local situation. Our 100,000. If we can make that work, it is much the best turnover is massively down, the pub’s appeal has changed, way for this country to go in order to avoid real hardship. people feel uncomfortable coming into the pub.” There have to be real lockdowns. We have to crack on The Government need to listen to businesses more with it and act quickly, and I am frustrated that some and seriously rethink this, as they are currently at risk leaders in the north are not doing that. If we can make a from a health and safety perspective as well as facing targeted approach work, that is must the best way to go the economic risk. The Image Mill in Thornton, which and that is the best future for this country. provides photographers, says: “We have fallen through the gaps as most do not have premises and are not 2.7 pm eligible for business grants. With the 15-person wedding (Bradford West) (Lab): On 10 May, the restriction, there are less weddings. We have missed the Prime Minister announced that the country would be wedding season and we’re waiting until next year.” That easing out of lockdown, despite analysts highlighting has a real domino effect. that his calls were coming early, and that without a Becky from Thornton Furnishings says: “People feel vaccine and a proper track and trace system we would the Tories are the party of business but their catastrophic fail to reduce the rise of the virus. In July, he set out mishandling of this crisis only proves they are the party plans for significant normality by Christmas and said of incompetence and one that does not care for small that people should start going back to work if they businesses or the health and wellbeing of people. I can could. He talked about opening sports stadiums and big say with certainty as a business owner I will not be 401 Covid-19 Economic Support Package14 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Economic Support Package 402 voting Tory at the next election.” I think Becky really Unlike the Opposition, who seem to thrive on the sums it up for the whole of my constituency regarding perceived delights of hindsight, the Government thrive the failures of this Government. on foresight: as the crisis evolves, their policy evolves. Bradford West needs more support. I urge the Chancellor The Government have put people’s livelihoods at the to address that. I said this yesterday and I will say it very heart of the covid-19 policy and continue to act in again and again: Bradford West needs some targeted the national interest while balancing the simultaneous support not just for its businesses but if we are not to objectives of keeping schools open and the economic fail the next generation. engine firing and saving lives in more ways than one. The Conservative party is the party of economic 2.12 pm competence and sound financial management. This Conservative Government have stood up and protected Suzanne Webb (Stourbridge) (Con): These are without jobs, incomes and businesses with unprecedented measures. doubt uniquely challenging times. Every Government They have not cowered under the weight of the pandemic; around the world has had to shut down their economies they have not abstained under the weight of the pandemic. to save lives. The consequences and impact of having to At their heart they have enterprise to create, support do this have been brutal not just for our economy but and extend opportunity to as many people as they can. the world’s economy.Covid-19 is a medical force majeure unlike any we have known in the modern era. Scientists 2.16 pm and policymakers alike are still trying to get to grips with its medical and economic consequences. No one Paul Bristow (Peterborough) (Con): In my speech in has the holy grail in these many regards. We simply do the House yesterday I said that something remarkable not know enough about it. happened in my city of Peterborough during the recent But what we do know enough about is this Government. lockdown and covid pandemic. We looked after the They are a Government who put people and their vulnerable. We ensured that those shielding had food livelihoods at their very heart, who have been resolute and supplies. We housed and fed our rough sleepers, in their response to this pandemic, and who have put in thanks to restaurants and takeaways. We came together unprecedented measures to protect jobs and businesses as one city. That made me very proud not only to with their economic support packages, for which my represent the city but to have grown up there. constituents are truly thankful. In my constituency Having said that, I do not want to go through that alone, we have seen 13,000 jobs protected by the furlough again, but Labour Members would hit poor people in scheme, over £9 million to support the self-employed, my city with another national lockdown, and it is for over 1,000 bounce back loans worth over £30 million to them to tell us how many jobs that would cost in small companies, 64 loans worth over £11 million through Peterborough. the coronavirus business interruption loan scheme, The remarkable resilience of my city is down to its and over £15 million of business grants paid out. This people, but we did not do it alone. The Government has all come from a £200 billion package of support protected jobs and businesses and provided the economic that has been committed since the beginning of this security needed to get us through this. They put their crisis. money where their mouth is: 15,600 jobs have been This is a Government delivering world-leading measures protected through the furlough scheme; 4.500 people to protect jobs and support businesses through this claimed grants through the self-employment income crisis. We know that we are facing demand-deficient support scheme; 2,185 bounce back loans were awarded; unemployment and the risk of structural unemployment. 70 coronavirus business interruption loans were awarded; Just hearing the words “recession”and “unemployment” and business grants worth more than £22 million were inspires dread, particularly having seen the harm done awarded. by welfare dependency in the past. We should not forget What does that mean on the ground? It means that that before this pandemic infected our lives, it was the Eve Taylor, a fabulous historic skin and body care Conservatives who had a history of protecting, supporting products company in Britain, has brought manufacturing and creating jobs. In 2019 we saw the highest figures on capacity back in-house, expanding the business and record for employment, and roughly 3 million jobs were employing more people. The Bottle & Board bottle created in the decade before the pandemic. We should shop in central Peterborough has been able to survive not lose sight of that. Nor should we lose sight of the during this tough time. My friend Lisa Aldridge owns political opportunism of others who blame and criticise, and runs Loxley Barbers, which had the dubious privilege as we have heard today from the Opposition, but without of giving me my first haircut after lockdown. A bounce their own plans. back loan has helped it to survive. My friends Billy and This is a Government interested in responsibility and Tony Kertolli, who run a carwash in Carr Road, gave accountability because it is the right thing to do, with free car washes to NHS workers. There are countless the Chancellor launching a £30 billion plan for jobs in further examples—all businesses that my office has July, including measures such as the £2 billion kickstart helped. These are real people, real jobs and real businesses, scheme to help young people. It is very clear to me and these people are my friends. Peterborough is a small where the commitment lies. They are a Government but big city and we depend on one another, and when focused on providing new work opportunities and not we needed Government support they were there for us. pretending to people that there is always a job to go The cultural recovery fund has been a lifeline for my back to in perpetuity. We cannot, after all, as a society city. We needed support and the Government listened. of taxpayers, fund what would be the Opposition’s It would be remiss of me not to mention some of the classic policy of letting people fail. This is a Government businesses that could not be supported, including those prioritising support and resources for jobseekers and who were moving business premises just before lockdown, the provision of retraining for those who need it. sole traders with not enough money and those who paid 403 Covid-19 Economic Support Package14 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Economic Support Package 404

[Paul Bristow] constituents should have to do so. For those not on the full rate of the national minimum wage, 67% of their them through dividends. I wish we could have done salary could be as low as £3.04, which is less than the more, but this was one of the most generous schemes in full rate of the minimum wage when Labour introduced the world, and I am pleased that the support will be it in 1998. If the Government will not commit to there for businesses and individuals in Peterborough supporting all those on the job support scheme with a when we need it. package at least as generous as furlough, the very least The job support scheme has been expanded to provide they can do is ensure that no one is being asked to live temporary and localised support to businesses whose on less than the minimum wage. premises are legally required to close as a direct result of The response to covid has been the worst of all the restrictions. The last thing my city needs are localised worlds. The lockdown that was announced too late, that restrictions. They are not needed or wanted, as my city was too lax and that finished too early, ostensibly to has done the right thing and rates are, thankfully, still protect the economy, and the social distancing purgatory low. Labour Members would put Peterborough back that is failing to stamp out domestic transmission have into national lockdown misery, whatever our successes hurt our economy far more than a national lockdown and whatever our individual circumstances. I am going ever could. We could have modelled our response on to make sure that local people in my city know who it is New Zealand. It adopted a zero-covid strategy that that wants to restrict their freedoms, take their jobs and meant short-term pain and enforced quarantine for all make their businesses go bankrupt when there is no visitors, but its economy is now back open and people reason to do so. This is typical Labour, and we are are allowed to hug their friends and families again. That going to make sure that the people of Peterborough should be our aspiration, too. know who would put them back into national lockdown misery. 2.23 pm Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): I draw 2.19 pm the House’s attention to my entry in the Register of Charlotte Nichols (Warrington North) (Lab): At the Members’ Financial Interests. I am one of the 5.7 million start of this crisis, the Government promised to do business people in this country for whom this is not a “whatever it takes” to get our country and our economy theoretical concept but an existential crisis. I listened through covid. They have broken that promise. My carefully to the shadow Chancellor, the hon. Member constituents, who have been subject to the tier 2 restrictions for Oxford East (Anneliese Dodds), when she talked for weeks now—before the term was coined—are being about business confidence. I agree with much of what left behind. We are in the frankly perverse situation she says, although probably not that much in this debate. where many pubs and hospitality venues would see One thing that really damages business confidence is more support to close that they would to stay open. when you flip-flop. To say on Monday that you are This cannot continue. We need a financial package for willing to support a local lockdown strategy and then to tier 2 local authority areas and businesses to protect say today that it has to be a national lockdown is totally jobs as a matter of urgency. wrong. That damages business confidence, and it damages Many sectors need additional targeted support, but consumer confidence. One thing that has bolstered business the Government have so far been unwilling to stump up confidence has been the unprecedented levels of support anything like the amount of investment required. Sector- we have seen from the Treasury and the Government. specific support for aviation has not been forthcoming This is the third recession I have been through in our for my constituents who work at Liverpool and Manchester business, including in the years following 2008, and airports and in our local supply chain. Equally, sectors I have never seen support like this. with large employment multipliers that are ready to We need to be honest with people when we talk about create the kind of highly paid skilled jobs our country is a national lockdown and a circuit breaker. Are we crying out for are being stymied by Government inaction. talking about just one circuit breaker, one hit? The The nuclear sector is perhaps the most egregious example reality is that the SAGE advice says we might need of this. It directly employs almost 4,500 people in multiple lockdowns, multiple circuit breakers, to keep Warrington North alone, a growth of 700 on last year. the virus at low levels. Imagine the devastating impact It wants to grow further, but the Government’s tardiness on businesses and consumer confidence. The shadow in publishing the energy White Paper and making the Chancellor has to be honest with the business community. necessary commitments to the next generation of new She needs to say that this might mean—[Interruption.] nuclear, including Sizewell C, is holding it back. If I did not hear it in her speech. She needs to say that this decisions are not made soon, we could lose those jobs might mean multiple lockdowns, multiple hits and multiple forever, and at the worst possible time for our economy costs to the taxpayer, and a devastating impact on and the environment. businesses. A circuit breaker will buy 28 days. It will put Just as whole sectors of our economy are being let us back in the same place in 28 days’ time—that is what down by this Government, so too are the lowest paid in it says. Please be honest with the people. What I would our communities, from the new starters and newly like to hear from the Opposition are some ideas on how self-employed who have been excluded from support to we keep the economy open. I have not heard anything those expected to live on 67% of the national minimum from them about how we tackle this public health crisis wage. Do the Government not understand what while keeping the economy open. I have not heard that. “minimum” means? It is a rate independently set as the If we cannot look to the Opposition, we should look least that a person could get by on. I know that I could to best practice internationally. There is no European not get by on £5.84 an hour, and I do not know why country I am aware of that has gone back to a national anyone in this House thinks that a single one of their lockdown. The leader in managing this crisis is Germany, 405 Covid-19 Economic Support Package14 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Economic Support Package 406 which uses not just a local lockdown policy but a determination to tackle covid-19, and to see the impact sub-local lockdown policy. It closed down Gütersloh on the people’s health minimised, and their businesses and Warendorf, with 300,000 people per district. That is and economy prepared for recovery. That is why I wish what we should look at. We should stop looking at wide to make it clear today that the Liberal Democrats regional lockdowns and look at sub-local lockdowns. support the motion from the Labour party. More than The hon. Lady is looking at a national lockdown, which that, we repeat our call for furlough to be extended to is the antithesis of what we are talking about. June next year. I know that that will cost £10 billion, but it is what the country needs, and it is a drop in the ocean Anneliese Dodds: I regret the fact that the hon. Member, compared with what will have to be spent if we get this for whom I have a huge amount of respect, particularly wrong. The scheme also needs to be reformed and when he campaigns on banking and other issues, has expanded to include the 3 million people in this country not listened to what the Opposition have consistently who are still waiting for any help from this Government; said about test, trace and isolate. He is absolutely right that is not good enough. about Germany. We wish we were in the situation where I also support the Labour party’scall for the Government test, trace and isolate was working effectively. That to take on board the scientific advice and bring forward would mean we could have a fine-grained response. We a two to three-week circuit breaker. I know that the do not have it in the UK and that is why we need a reset thought of us all having to endure that again is not what to fix that system. He should be honest about that. any of us wants to hear, and particularly not businesses. My constituents in West, like individuals, Kevin Hollinrake: I agree with that, but it is not companies and families up and down this country, have either/or. Of course we need to improve test and trace, already endured unimaginable stress about their futures but that should not mean we have to lock down the and their health, and some have endured very real entire economy. That is absolutely the wrong thing. hardship. I have three solutions. The number one thing is that The situation that we face could have been avoided if we look at this on a super-local basis. We know that the this Government had used the summer to create a rate of infection in Liverpool is 670 per 100,000. It is world-beating test and trace system—not one that they 60 in parts of North Yorkshire, but it varies significantly tell us is world-beating, but one that is. I am one of the across North Yorkshire. Weneed to look at a district-based people that my hon. Friend the Member for North East approach that would increase the amount of ownership Fife (Wendy Chamberlain) talked about who jump from and responsibility local people have for managing the one app to the other when they travel. I worry that I crisis through peer pressure and from understanding may be on the wrong app when I need to be traced; how that their actions would be effective. will they find me? A circuit breaker must be used to I fully support having different tiers. I supported ensure that test and trace can and does deliver. The them on Monday and I support them today. Having Government also have to provide the support for a said that, the two higher tiers do lead to a difficult sustained and fast economic kickstart when the circuit situation. Bars and restaurants in tier 2, and restaurants breaker period is over. in tier 3, are not required to close. That means they Let us be clear: it is not the virus that is solely cannot access furlough support. There are two things responsible or to blame for where we are. It is the we could do: extend the furlough support, which is a hit Government’s incompetence and inability to use the on the taxpayer; or, instead of coming down from six time they had over the summer effectively. We need a households per table, as it was last week, to one household, strategy that sets out not only the support available but we could go to two households. That concession would a plan for recovery—a route map out of this—to provide have a very important effect for lots of pubs and restaurants, the certainty that every sector of the economy craves. which would then be viable. That brings me back to the extension of furlough. The The third solution is business support. We need a new Chancellor said that we need to take responsibility, and iteration of the bounce back loan scheme and the he is right, but the Government are not leading; they are coronavirus business interruption loan scheme, which responding. There is no strategy or consistency. There is has been so successful. As my hon. Friend the Economic no improvement. What we have instead is an astonishing Secretary to the Treasury knows, we also need to make chop and change, knee-jerk reaction to support for non-bank lenders part of that new tranche of business business. support. We need forbearance for SMEs. We should We were understanding in March—we had not faced phase support back in, so we move VAT from 5% to this before—but seven months down the line, enough is 10%, and not back to 20%. We should also phase back enough, with 635,000 cases, more than 43,000 deaths in business rates and perhaps stamp duty. and the mourning, the job losses and the suffering that people have already had to face. Unprecedented does 2.28 pm not have to mean impossible. The Chancellor asked us to look at the numbers. We learned this week that the Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD): It is a economy has grown by less than half the amount expected, pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Thirsk and and the has warned of 3 million Malton (Kevin Hollinrake). He made some interesting unemployed, which will only be exacerbated by leaving points, although he will not be surprised to hear that I the EU without a trade deal. Just in case those on the do not agree with most of them. Government Front Bench think that, because I am I am delighted to take part in this important debate, Scottish, I am nationalist, I am not. This is not about which, regardless of what the Chancellor says, is not saying that the Scottish Government are wonderful, about cheap shots and getting at the Government. I because they are not, even though they say so. It is believe that all of us in this place are united in our about asking for what the country needs— 407 Covid-19 Economic Support Package14 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Economic Support Package 408

Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame ): 2.36 pm Order. Sam Tarry (Ilford South) (Lab): This was never going 2.32 pm to be easy—no Government were ever going to put Anna McMorrin (Cardiff North) (Lab): It is a pleasure everything right—but as millions of people face the to follow the hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Christine prospect of Christmas without a job, the facts speak for Jardine). The UK Government have spectacularly failed themselves. Britain’s economic downturn is now the to use the time that we had to get a grip of this virus. It worst in Europe,and the OBR forecasts that unemployment need not have been this way. The UK Government have will reach 11.9%. As a consequence, extreme poverty is failed to work collaboratively with all four nations to set to double. In the first half of this year alone, the UK implement a coherent national strategy, putting people endured the worst recession of any G7 country, with first and protecting lives. This is not for want of trying GDP falling by more than 22%. We are left mired in the by the Government, whose repeated efforts worst recession in our history. of co-operation have been ignored. Just this week, an Institute for Public Policy Research The UK Government have failed to produce a joined-up report revealed that 2 million jobs are at risk, but the and effective test, trace and isolate system in England to job support scheme will save only 10% of them. That is halt the spread and shield the vulnerable. Where this because, in its current guise, the scheme simply does not Tory Government have squandered millions on failed incentivise businesses to retain their staff. Other countries, attempts by companies such as Serco, the Welsh Labour such as Germany and Denmark, have offered far more Government, in contrast, have introduced test, trace comprehensive packages that save a significant number and protect, delivered by local health boards and local of jobs. That report was followed yesterday by the authorities, with a success rate of over 90%. announcement that redundancies are up by a record When nations across the world such as Germany 114,000 this quarter and that the unemployment rate is were extending and strengthening support to protect at its highest for three years, leading the Office for jobs and livelihoods and provide the level of flexibility National Statistics to revise its own estimate of the needed, this Treasury was whittling away economic current employment rate to 4.5%. support, reducing the furlough scheme and failing to That is why it is incredibly worrying that the support support the excluded 3 million. I recently asked my package recently unveiled by the Chancellor fell well constituents in Cardiff North what they thought of the short of what is required. Just days before the furlough current crisis and how they were managing, and the scheme ends, it is forecast that between 10% and 20% of overwhelming majority of businesses that took part those on furlough will likely end up unemployed when were worried beyond belief. They are worried about the scheme ends. That means a minimum of 4,500 people their future. There needs to be a flexible economic in Ilford South alone losing their jobs. All this at a time approach that truly supports our businesses, families when support for the self-employed will collapse next and people’s livelihoods so that they are not in fear for month to just 20% of profits, down from 70% currently. their future. The job support scheme needs to be reformed More than 33,000 voters in my constituency are on so that it incentivises employers to keep staff on rather some form of job support, be it furlough or the self- than letting them go. That is what constituents and employment income support scheme, as a result of the businesses in Cardiff North are crying out for—an pandemic. That is more than one third of the entire economic package that allows people to isolate if they constituency. What am I supposed to tell those workers have to and provides security and peace of mind. who are already struggling to put food on the table for Businesses in Cardiff North such as Tom at their families? How many more people have to lose their Mr Brightsides café in North, Alwen at Iechyd jobs before this Government get a grip on the health Da in Whitchurch, the fantastic Birchgrove pub run by and jobs crisis? Is the Chancellor honestly saying that, the brilliant Welsh Brains brewery, and Sue and Laura after decades of austerity, the infrastructure is in place at Selah café in , as well as the self-employed to retrain all those who have lost jobs? Does he even and local traders—local people who support local jobs know how long it would take a waiter who lost their job and are at the heart of our community—have all told in Ilford to retrain as a Python computer coder? The me that what they need is sustained economic support. Government’s new skills training initiative will not even The Welsh Labour Government have already brought be ready until April. They have their head in the clouds. forward a wave of measures to protect jobs and livelihoods, including the most generous package of support for small It should come as no surprise, therefore, that there is and medium-sized enterprises anywhere in the UK, and significant public backing for a new way of running our a resilience fund that has supported 13,000 companies economy. A recent Survation poll found that 74% of the and helped to secure 100,000 jobs in Wales. public are in favour of the wealthiest in our society Earlier,the Chancellor called what he is doing leadership. paying more tax. I am sure Government Members will Really? My constituents do not see leadership; they see want to know that 64% of Conservative voters are in incoherent messaging, confusion and a Chancellor who favour of that, while YouGov found that a staggering is worried more about maintaining his brand than 94% of the UK public believe there needs to be a about showing real leadership, which means changing change from the status quo of the pre-pandemic economy. tack in the national interest even when it is uncomfortable. The Government are simply burying their head in the They see a Cabinet at war with itself on whether to sand and carrying on as though we are not still in the protect health or protect the economy, failing to grasp middle of a global pandemic. That is simply not the answer. that the two must go hand in hand. That is not leadership. We learned that if we had locked down the country just People are suffering. Livelihoods are being ruined, and one week earlier during the first wave, the death toll loved ones lost. We need a reset. Stop playing games would have been halved. The Prime Minister suggested and put people’s lives first. on Monday that only very high-risk areas will get 409 Covid-19 Economic Support Package14 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Economic Support Package 410 additional funding for local test and trace. I wonder UK Government so that the Welsh Government can whether he agrees that we need to fix test and trace carry over moneys from one year to the next and ease across the country. borrowing limits. Redbridge has one of the worst infection rates in The current situation is not an inevitable consequence . Time is simply running out to tackle this of the pandemic; it is the result of a political choice. health and economic crisis. The UK Government have With the UK entering the worst recession of any OECD lost control of this virus and lost control of the message. country with estimates as high as 4 million unemployed, They are no longer even following scientific advice. action is needed now and I urge the Government to That is why Labour is calling for a circuit-breaker stand by their commitment to do whatever it takes and lockdown, coupled with the package of economic measures provide an economic package that will cater for everyone. that we need to support and lift our people, and stop This could include reforming the job support scheme to another generation going into poverty. reimburse everyone at 80% of wages or higher, provide sector-specific support, provide support for specific groups and end precarious working arrangements. Alongside 2.40 pm that, we desperately need welfare reform to provide a (Cynon Valley) (Lab): The covid pandemic safety net, and we can begin by reversing the £30 billion has exposed and exacerbated an already broken economic cuts in the social security budget since 2010. system that is rigged in favour of the wealthy while We can afford that by taxing wealth. It is estimated eroding workers’ rights and remuneration. The system that if wealth were taxed at the same rate as income tax, is broken. it would raise £174 billion a year. In 2008, the Government My constituency of Cynon Valley is a case in point. paid £500 billion to bail out the banks. We can do this if The local authority has endured £90 million of Tory the political will is there. Do this Government have the Government cuts since 2010 and austerity. Some 23% of political will to act to help people in communities like the population are living in poverty while child poverty mine or will they continue to help the millionaire cronies rates are even higher—at 35%. Alongside that, we are with juicy contracts so they can profit— one of the areas that have been hardest hit by the coronavirus like other of the poorest communities elsewhere Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): in the United Kingdom. We have one of the highest Order. rates of covid and of death from covid in Wales and, in certain points, one of the highest in the UK. Tory 2.45 pm austerity measures have left people in my constituency (Swansea East) (Lab): It is a pleasure poorer and therefore more susceptible to the virus. to speak after my hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Since the 1980s, we have experienced the demise of Valley (Beth Winter). traditional industries and unemployment rates have Yesterday, I received a message from a beauty salon risen sharply recently. A quarter of the workforce have owner, and she told me: been furloughed and workers are fearful for their future. “5 out of 8 appointments cancelled today due to clients being Figures for universal credit claimants have almost doubled in contact with someone who may have Coronavirus.” this year and they are above the UK average. The future Incidentally, before either of the Members on the is also bleak for our young people. The number of Conservative Benches start patting themselves on the benefit claimants doubled between March and July back that that was because of the track and trace this year. system; it was not. It is all linked to a local outbreak in a The UK Government’s original furlough scheme was local pub. This woman is a successful business owner, welcome and did provide a lifeline for many businesses who is now left wondering how long she can sustain this but it fell short of what was required. The Chancellor’s level of cancellations without financial support. Having belatedly announced job support scheme is woefully only been open for two months following the extended inadequate and is applicable only to certain groups. We forced closure of the industry, she has been attempting have done things differently in Wales and the Labour-led a new normal turnover, which is already considerably Welsh Government have put in place an extremely less than prior to the pandemic. The spike in cases generous package of support for businesses—the best means that, this month, she is looking at being down in the UK. This includes the economic resilience fund, 20% on that new normal. She is struggling; she is which is providing further grants to enable businesses to worried; and she is asking when the Government will adapt to post-covid realities, to support the foundational recognise this industry, which has been constantly economy and to assist businesses adversely affected by overlooked and undervalued throughout the pandemic, the local lockdown. and offer it some financial support. My response to her But the purse strings remain with the UK Government, is that I am wondering the very same thing. and that places severe constraints on what we can Over the past six months, I have asked on countless achieve in Wales. The current arrangements between occasions for support for this industry. I have sat in this central Government and Wales are insufficient to meet Chamber while the Prime Minister openly sniggered our needs. We need a genuine four-nation partnership when asked a question by one of his own MPs about approach not only to eradicate the virus from our supporting these businesses. His trademark flippancy country—it can be done, because other countries and ridiculing of a sector struggling to survive is not such as New Zealand have done it—but to develop welcome, and it has left some 370,000 employees, mostly the right economic strategy and end the poverty trap women, feeling belittled, undervalued and angry. that damages so many communities and individuals As co-chair of the all-party parliamentary group on both financially and in terms of health. We need to beauty, aesthetics and wellbeing—with my good friend, end the dead hand of financial inflexibility from the my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford South (Judith 411 Covid-19 Economic Support Package14 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Economic Support Package 412

[Carolyn Harris] do not know what the Chancellor considers to be a safety net, but this is not it. The financial support Cummins)—I have heard heartbreaking stories of job offered by the Government will do nothing for those losses, businesses collapsing and financial insecurity for who have been excluded from support from the very those who work in this sector. I have asked in this start of this pandemic, and it will do nothing for Chamber for the beauty and wellbeing sector to be businesses that are not forced to close but need to. This taken seriously and to be treated with the same respect is not fair and not right. as other industries. I have written to Ministers, to the Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs estimates that Chancellor and to the Prime Minister, and I have asked there are several hundred thousand fewer people on for a support package to help these businesses survive, payroll since the beginning of the pandemic, and economists but I feel my pleas have constantly fallen on deaf ears. expect unemployment to increase, so what is the Chancellor This multibillion-pound industry is currently on its doing to safeguard employees? Wehave already established knees. It is great to see the Chancellor outlining the that many people will fall through the gaps in the new money that will be available to support other businesses financial scheme on offer. The Bank of England has to help them survive, and I wholeheartedly support this, estimated that the unemployment rate may well be but where is the help for our beauty and wellbeing 7.5% at the end of 2020. In Coventry North West, sector? The hospitality and leisure sectors have now had unemployment claimant figures have risen to 4,815, and a VAT reduction to 5% for more than three months. It I fear that number could rise more. has been a real boost to industries that have struggled The Chancellor needs to ensure that economic support due to closures at the first peak of the pandemic and goes hand in hand with the imposition of local restrictions. reduced income as they started to reopen. We cannot have a one-size-fits-all tier system: it is At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I ask doomed to fail from the very start. Were Labour in again: can this VAT reduction be extended to the hair, government, we would put in place a job recovery beauty, spa and wellness sectors? Can they, too, be scheme that fixes the problems with the Government’s given this financial support to help them survive with scheme, so that employers can keep more staff on rather further measures looking increasingly likely, and if not, than having to let people go. This would ensure that no can the Minister ask the Chancellor please to tell me one on the scheme would fall into poverty, and it would and the 370,000 people who earn their living from the be open to all businesses impacted by the restrictions. A sector, why not? tightly designed and targeted scheme would also ensure that money is spent where it is most needed. 2.48 pm 2.52 pm Taiwo Owatemi (Coventry North West) (Lab): I am (Midlothian) (SNP): It is a pleasure pleased to be speaking in the debate today. Yesterday, to follow the hon. Member for Coventry North West my hon. Friend the Member for Oxford East (Anneliese (Taiwo Owatemi). Dodds) raised a pertinent question with the Chancellor It is with something of a sense of déjà vu that I rise to regarding the economic support available to individuals speak with the Economic Secretary to the Treasury sat and businesses in the areas subject to additional public on the Front Bench, having had exchanges with him health restrictions. We have repeatedly spoken in the yesterday in a Westminster Hall debate on financial House about the Chancellor being out of touch with support for the events industry. I do not intend to go the financial needs of the businesses, employees and over the same ground today—I am sure that he will be employers in our constituencies, and he is proving us glad to hear that—but, as with so many issues, the lack right yet again. I ask him: what good is the job support of support for those in the events industry extends scheme to businesses in Coventry North West if it does much further. As I said, though, we covered much of not provide crucial support to employees in tier 1 and that yesterday. tier 2 lockdown areas if businesses choose to close These are businesses that we just cannot abandon— because of coronavirus restrictions? I will tell him: it businesses that are successful and will be successful does absolutely nothing. again very soon. If support could be made available, it The Chancellor’s sink-or-swim approach to the job could see them over the hill. We cannot pretend that support scheme is letting down my constituents who 22% of the wage bill will be even close to enough for will not be able to access it. The job support scheme employers to keep on staff when many are in a worse provides less security to employees than the furlough position than they were in March and when restrictions scheme. My constituents will go from receiving 80% of are still preventing them from carrying out their main their wages to just 66% on the job support scheme—and business. that is only if people can work a third of their stipulated Many fantastic high-turnover businesses, such as Saltire hours. If they cannot work, they do not receive anything. Hospitality in my constituency, have seen the major What does the Chancellor think will happen to people events that they normally supply cancelled—they simply on lower incomes and people on zero-hours contracts? I have not been able to take place during the covid will tell him: it will push them further into poverty, and pandemic. Saltire Hospitality has changed its business—it possibly into financial destitution. has pivoted and tried different ideas—again and again Financial support will apply only to businesses in to adapt to changing circumstances, and it will have a regions under a tier 3 lockdown that are forced to close. full diary when events and conferences get up and The Chancellor has called the scheme a safety net for running again. But where is the support from the businesses, but it will not be a safety net for businesses Government to get it there? Such successful and viable that choose to shut down; nor will it be one for businesses businesses are put at real risk if the Government fail that are told to close by local public health authorities. I to listen. 413 Covid-19 Economic Support Package14 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Economic Support Package 414

I welcome the recognition that some extension of recorded. Storm Dennis decimated parts of our support was needed for wages, although it came late in constituencies earlier this year, and the Prime Minister the day, and I welcome the continuation of the 5% VAT said that funds would be passported to help us rebuild. rate for hospitality until 31 March, although, as my Where is that money? It just shows how much stock can hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow East (David be placed in a promise from this Government: all these Linden) suggested, we would like to see that extended months later, we and our communities are still waiting. far more. Sadly, this support is simply not enough to That is absolutely disgraceful, and shows just how little halt the frightening tsunami of job losses that we can all care this Government have for the people of Wales. see on the horizon. This Government are still pursuing a one-size-fits-all The self-employed have all been abandoned, with the approach to protecting jobs during this pandemic. For 70% profit replacement reduced to just 20%, and there months now, the Labour party has been calling for a is still nothing for the 3 million excluded from any sector-specific support deal, and still this Government support at all. The financial support available is half-hearted have not accepted responsibility and have not put in at a time when we need the Government to stay fully place a plan to support these industries. We know that committed to doing “whatever it takes”, as the the aviation sector is facing specific and substantial Chancellor said. challenges because of the virus. In Pontypridd, major The Labour party is today asking the Government to employers including GE Aviation in Nantgarw and go further, and I support that. The Scottish Government British Airways in Llantrisant have sadly been forced to are already taking action to plug the gaps in support make redundancies. Across this country, 1.6 million where they can, providing tailored packages above and people’s jobs and livelihoods rely on the aviation sector. beyond the Barnett consequentials, including the new We cannot just let those jobs disappear. £40 million fund for firms that are having to close. They The coach industry, too, is facing specific challenges are finding resources from a very limited budget and as a result of the coronavirus pandemic. Like aviation, spending them wisely, something that this Government this is a seasonal industry that is very reliant on tourism. are not best known for; they could do much to learn Industry experts estimate that up to four in 10 companies from the Scottish Government. One wonders how many could go bust and 27,000 jobs could be lost if no businesses could have been comfortably supported with support is made available. This will hit communities the botched billions that have been blown on dodgy hard, as many of these companies are family-owned private contracts with Tory cronies and the unnecessary small businesses, such as Edwards Coaches and Ferris costs of building the border. Coach Holidays in my constituency. It really does not However welcome Scottish Government action is, have to be this way: this Government have the opportunity without serious rethinking of the job support scheme, to save jobs with sector-specific support packages, but they are papering over cracks in a sea wall just before have instead decided to proceed with an economic the tsunami hits. If this Government will not act, they support package that is clearly not fit for purpose. should provide the Scottish Government with the fiscal The high street is also feeling the strain. Just this levers that Scotland needs to take the right decisions to week, the group that owns Peacocks, a significant employer protect jobs and lives wherever necessary. Decisions on in my constituency, announced that it is appointing available support are not carved in stone; they are made administrators. That puts 24,000 jobs across the country by a small group of people with big responsibilities on at risk, and other well-known high street brands are their shoulders. It is a political choice, and based on the also feeling the strain. River Island recently closed its actions this Government are not taking at the moment, store on Pontypridd’s high street after being doubly hit, it is a short-sighted one. The Scottish Government first by flooding from Storm Dennis and then by the calculate that extending furlough would save 61,000 jobs coronavirus pandemic, and Pontypridd’s high street is in Scotland. The good news is that these are decisions sadly not alone. that can be rethought, and I urge the Government to do Then, there is still the problem of all the people who so for the sake of all our futures. have been left out of Government support altogether. Earlier this week, I asked the Minister about support 2.56 pm for people who have been excluded from the Government’s support schemes. His response was that the Government Alex Davies-Jones (Pontypridd) (Lab): It is an honour had covered the issue. Well, the 3 million people who to follow the hon. Member for Midlothian (Owen have been excluded from UK Government support Thompson); I share a lot of his concerns, and I think it during the coronavirus pandemic do not feel like this issue is vital that we recognise that the numbers often quoted has been covered at all. When will the Government take in this place relate to real people, with real bills to pay some responsibility? They cannot govern with eleventh-hour and real children to look after. announcements and leaks to the press. People in areas Given the Chancellor’s absence yesterday, he may not under local restrictions need clarity and guidance, not be aware that my local authority of Rhondda Cynon slapdash announcements that have not even been thought Taf has been under local coronavirus restrictions for through. I urge the Chancellor and the Minister to some weeks now, so I can speak from specific experience. consider their priorities deeply going forward, because Hundreds of people across Pontypridd feel utterly failed our constituents all deserve a secure economic future, by the Chancellor and this Government. As colleagues and people across Wales deserve better than to be from across the House will know, this is not the first consistently forgotten and betrayed by this Government. financial hardship my community has faced this year. Pontypridd, along with the communities represented by 3 pm my hon. Friends the Members for Cynon Valley (Beth Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab): The Government Winter) and for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), was hit only have already conceded that fighting the spread of this eight months ago with some of the worst flooding ever dangerous covid-SARS virus in our country requires 415 Covid-19 Economic Support Package14 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Economic Support Package 416

[Ms Angela Eagle] freelancers and the self-employed, and we need to pay adequate sick pay for those forced to isolate. If we do extraordinary levels of state action and support, but not do that, the virus will roar back, and the economic now, just as the fight is intensifying, it is clear that they cost will, in the end, be far greater and the cost in lives have lost their nerve. We are not only battling this will be unbearable. deadly virus; the Prime Minister is fighting his libertarian instincts and the right-wing ideologues in his party. 3.4 pm They are opposed to the collective state action that is Layla Moran (Oxford West and Abingdon) (LD): necessary to save lives and mitigate the damage from Today I want to focus on the forgotten—those who the pandemic. The delay that this fight caused in March have been forgotten by this Government in my constituency left us with a double whammy of the highest per-capita and right across the country. There are 3 million people death toll in Europe on top of the largest economic hit who are excluded, not to mention the 4 million who are in the G7, and now, this unforgivable dereliction of now reliant on the flawed universal credit system. duty looks like it is happening again. In Oxford West and Abingdon, the claimant rate has As the Prime Minister dithers, the virus spreads. His increased by 255% since March, and what scares me is failure to take timely and firm action will cost more that here we are again. They all suffered when we went lives and wreak more damage on our economy. As he into lockdown. We had meeting after meeting to raise courts his mutinous Back Benchers and abandons the these issues with the Government, and we were told that science to keep them sweet, all the warning signs are if we come together and clap for our frontline workers flashing red again. He is behind the curve and he knows every Thursday, we will get through it, yet here we are it, and since the SAGE minutes were published on with a three-tier system that will inevitably lead to Monday night, we all know it, too. another lockdown. The Government have lost the trust that they need to We are hearing that the Government have begun to lead the fight against this deadly threat. Their partisan, abandon listening to the scientists and are instead following high-handed behaviour has made it worse, excluding a strange balancing act, which they are trying to present Parliament completely. There are constant briefings to as Goldilocks—the best of both worlds—when, in fact, the media, and an obsession with outsourcing and we have some of the highest case numbers per capita in centralisation has caused the failure of Test and Trace Europe and some of the poorest performing economic and the scandal of PPE supplier contracts to Tory metrics. It is the worst of all possible worlds, not the best. donors. And: In my constituency, like many others, there are some “We will do whatever it takes”— horrific stories. The director of a small gym in my has now turned into the inadequate furlough-lite proposals constituency pays himself via PAYE and dividends, and that the Chancellor has recently come up with. Just as he is petrified of what he sees happening in the north, the virus returns, he has packed up the safety net. with the closing of gyms. He is wondering what is going to happen. Will there continue to be no safety net? He is For my constituents in Wallasey, who are now in worried about going out of business altogether. tier 3 and facing a local lockdown, vital support disappears These are the 99% of businesses in this country that at the end of the month. In Wirral, 31,000 people are form the backbone of our economy, and once they still on furlough and it will disappear at the end of the close, as the Minister and the Chancellor well know, it month, just as the virus comes roaring back. What will be difficult for them to start up again. I have a replaces it is completely inadequate, as the Chancellor constituent who is working two jobs, because neither knows only too well, and those who are losing their jobs pays enough to cover the cost of living. She gets nothing or their business do not want a lecture from him about now, because 47% of her income is from self-employment, how much he has already spent. Those who are excluded and the most striking thing in her correspondence with completely from this support in the first place—the me, and in the correspondence of my constituent freelancers, some of the self-employed—do not want Christopher who works in the creative arts industry, is that lecture either. They want a Government who will the real sense of fear and deteriorating mental health. recognise the hardship that the pandemic has caused and be there to help. The least that the Government Reading the emails from the beginning of March to could have done was to repurpose the £40 million in now, they are tetchy. They apologise to me for the tone unspent support allocated to the Liverpool city region, of their emails, but it is not they who should be apologising. which is now in tier 3, to support local businesses, but It is the Chancellor, the Minister and this Government again today the Chancellor has refused even that modest who should be apologising to them for the stress they request. are under. Christopher has not earned a penny since March, and he makes the point that he has spent his Those forced to self-isolate to stop the spread of the whole life paying his taxes and that he has a contract virus need the support to do so and not to have to with this country, and I totally agree. choose between feeding their family and obeying the Weneed to improve furlough. Weneed sector-by-sector rules. Wirral Council, which has been at the forefront of bail-outs where needed, but Christopher has received the fight against the virus, has not been reimbursed for absolutely nothing. He is supporting his wife and two what this has cost and, like many other local authorities, children, and he has paid taxes his whole life, and he it is teetering on the verge of bankruptcy. feels completely abandoned. He is now talking about So what do we need? We need an increase in generosity feeling depressed and anxious. The long-term effect of of the furlough-lite scheme. It has to pay more to those the lack of Government support on people’s mental whose jobs are affected. We need wider eligibility; it has health is one consequence of this pandemic that we are to go to businesses that are affected, not only those that not taking seriously enough, so I hope those constituents close. We need to include the excluded, which means and others across the country who are hearing the 417 Covid-19 Economic Support Package14 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Economic Support Package 418 speeches from the Opposition know at least they are not be hampered by a lack of income and low confidence forgotten—even if they might be excluded by this among British households. The legacy from the last Government. All I would like to say is a plea on their period of mass unemployment already casts a shadow behalf. Please, this is not dealt with. Yes, there are over the British economy, particularly in the north, and support packages for others, but it has not reached I can only imagine what the legacy of the Prime Minister them. and this Government will look like. Nobody is asking for the furlough scheme to go on forever, but workers and jobs must be protected if we are to return to any 3.8 pm kind of normality when we finally defeat this virus. The Kate Osborne (Jarrow) (Lab): It is an honour to Government should put the correct levels of support in follow the hon. Member for Oxford West and Abingdon place, make the correct political decisions and save jobs (Layla Moran). I agree with so many of her points. by supporting all businesses, no matter the size or the In my constituency of Jarrow, people have been living sector. under local restrictions for over a month without any clear support package in place. The Chancellor’s 3.12 pm indecisiveness has left workers and businesses across all constituencies, particularly in areas under local restrictions, Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): It is a in complete limbo and often confused by ever-changing pleasure to follow a fellow north-east MP, my hon. rules and regulations. It is no secret that wealthy areas, Friend the Member for Jarrow (Kate Osborne). The including the Chancellor’s own seat of Richmond, are UK has one of the highest covid-19 death rates in the avoiding being locked down, despite higher covid-19 world, with thousands of lives lost and families torn rates than in less wealthy areas that are subject to from their loved ones far too soon. The UK is also on restrictions. track to have one of the worst recessions, with millions It begs the question: if London and the south of out of work and people looking for employment in the England had been asked to live under the same restrictions most hostile conditions imaginable. Yesterday, it was as those implemented in the north, would the Government announced that the UK unemployment rate had surged have found new strategies a long time ago? This utterly to its highest level for over three years at 4.5%. The stinks of classism and serial incompetence at the heart disastrous mix of the pandemic and Tory incompetence of this Government, and the empty Government Benches continues to decimate our jobs market. tell me how much the Government are not listening. While the national picture is devastating, what is The Chancellor has made a U-turn of sorts, but happening in the north-east of England is utterly people in my constituency have already suffered, and catastrophic. We have among the highest mortality for many this has come far too late. It feels to many like rates for deaths involving covid-19 and our unemployment an intentional managed decline. This is not levelling up; rate has soared to 6.6%, the worst in the UK. As Niamh it is levelling down. Corcoran of the North East England chamber of commerce said yesterday: Let us take the example of Kieran, a bar manager in my constituency who got in touch, heartbroken that his “The North East now finds itself with the highest unemployment rate, the lowest employment rate and the lowest average hours bar has turned from a hiring business to a firing business worked of all British regions…Although the Government’s in the weeks since the local restrictions were introduced. amendments to the Jobs Support Scheme offers some support for Kieran’s business saw infection rates staying stable for our region in the event of tighter restrictions, it does not go far the two months after reopening, so like many of us he is enough.” at a loss to understand why the hospitality industry is For thousands of families, their income is precarious, being made a scapegoat for the rise in cases, when no dwindling or has disappeared, and new child poverty concrete evidence has been produced by the Government statistics released today by the End Child Poverty coalition to prove that, despite Members from all parts of the show that the north-east has seen the biggest rise in House asking repeatedly for that evidence. child poverty.In my constituency and next door in Stockton There is nothing new for the self-employed, nothing South, the proportion of children living in poverty has again for those who have been excluded from the start risen to 34% and 29% respectively, with others in the and nothing for businesses that are not forced to close, Tees valley higher still. Those are not empty statistics, but are suffering because of their local restrictions. In but represent thousands of living, breathing children fact, some local hospitality businesses and others have plunged into poverty as a result of poorly paid jobs or told me they would rather be in tier 3 than tier 2 due to no jobs at all for their families. the lack of financial support. The Chancellor’s chaotic The Tees valley is haemorrhaging jobs. Some 12,565 habit of trying to fix problems of his own making at the have been lost since March, and thousands more are last possible minute is costing jobs and causing chaos. now destined for the scrapheap thanks to the Tory The UK is on course for a 1980s-style jobs crisis, and response, yet businesses in tier 2 lockdown, such as the Chancellor’s name is all over it. those in my constituency, have no safety net whatever. I fully support the proposals by the shadow Front They are not legally mandated to close, yet we know for Bench team that would put in place a job recovery a fact that many of them will, and many will not open scheme that fixes the problems so that many employers again. They will have few, if any, customers, but they can keep more staff on. If the Chancellor’s current will get no proper support from the Government. Simon plans are not reformed, millions of people will be Longbottom, CEO of the Stonegate Pub Company, pushed into unemployment, yet the Government will which has 10 pubs in my constituency, said: still be required to offer financial support through many “Whilst we are continually working to protect jobs, with every benefits,such as the inadequate universal credit. Households new instruction from Government our delicate business balance will feel the squeeze and the prospects for recovery will fractures further.” 419 Covid-19 Economic Support Package14 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Economic Support Package 420

[Alex Cunningham] that ensures no one on the scheme falls into poverty; and that is open to all businesses impacted by the Even businesses that are mandated to close will only get restrictions. partial support for wages, which can only mean another Weneed the Government to recognise the large number wave of job losses. of holes in their recovery plan and actively strive to fill Across the Tees valley and the north-east, we are in those holes, rather than simply ticking the boxes and crying out for serious and sustained economic investment. turning away. That is why Labour is stating clearly that Our Tory metro Mayor promised job creation for the a two to three-week circuit-breaker lockdown should be Tees valley, but he has spent £100,000 on each job he accompanied by the reopening of the Government’s has created in the last three years. Then there is closed £1.3 billion fund, using the underspend to support Houchengate. The Tory Mayor proudly donned his businesses in need. hard hat to announce that he was spending £1 million By far the biggest employer in my constituency is the on a new gate to an industrial estate, with few, if any, Port Talbot steelworks, yet Tata Steel has fallen through jobs. That £1 million could have provided 100 vulnerable the cracks in Government schemes and is yet to receive businesses with a £10,000 lifeline and probably saved a single penny of covid-related support. Steelworkers many of them from closure. Sadly, it has been spent on are key workers. The steel industry continues to operate a gate. There is no protection scheme for jobs. For every and serve Britain through the crisis as we look to job announced in the last three years, five have been lost rebuild our economy. It is the foundation of our entire in the last six months. manufacturing sector. We need our steel, but the industry We need a serious vision from the Government—one can only get through this crisis with urgent support that is not just about creating a few eye-wateringly from Government. expensive new jobs but about protecting the good jobs Make no mistake about it: steel underpins our entire that already exist. If the Government do not act, not manufacturing sector, from defence to aerospace, only will we see the poor suffer even more in communities automotive and construction. It builds resilience and like mine in Stockton North, but many families who reliance into our economy. It is also far greener to make have never experienced poverty in their lives will experience steel in the UK than to import it. There are some it for the first time. That is not a place that we as a fantastic projects such as SPECIFIC in my constituency, country want to go. which is about creating photovoltaic cells with a steel-based film. The Government must offer long-term support to 3.16 pm steel in the form of a sector deal, such as the one that aerospace and construction have, but they must first Stephen Kinnock (Aberavon) (Lab): The last seven offer immediate short-term support to get us through months have been extremely difficult for individuals, this crisis. The message is clear: we need our steel. Steel families and communities across our country, so I want is a 21st-century industry that forms the backbone of to start by paying tribute to those in my constituency our economy,and there can be no post-pandemic recovery who have kept our economy and our community going. without a strong and healthy steel industry. Key workers and community groups have pulled together in an incredibly resourceful and compassionate way to get us through these difficult times, while local 3.20 pm businesses have turned their hands to manufacturing Kim Johnson (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab): Yesterday, PPE at the drop of a hat and showcased an amazing I received the latest claimant figures for my constituency, amount of skill and flexibility. It has been an inspiration and its rate of claimants has doubled since the pandemic to witness. began in March. The level of joblessness in my constituency However, many of my constituents have been badly is one in five, and this includes those, like many of the let down by the cracks in Government schemes or by ExcludedUK members, who do not feature as they are incoherent UK Government communications.For instance, unable to claim any support whatsoever. Now that holidays are not seen as a reasonable excuse to leave a Liverpool has been declared a tier 3 zone, our leisure lockdown area, yet because the flights are going ahead, facilities and gyms, and our hospitality sector, are being some travel companies and insurers are refusing to give forced to close. Across Liverpool, approximately refunds or pay out. One constituent of mine lost £1,800 on 30,000 people are employed in this sector and they all a trip to Turkey by trying to do the right thing in staying face at least four weeks without work. The job support home, and another faced hardship over a trip to Portugal. scheme offers less support than comparable schemes in I would like to hear what the Government are doing to other countries; it will provide only 67% of earnings, apply pressure on those firms and to compensate customers and this will force many people into poverty. The point where a firm has gone bust. has been made this week by colleagues that bills, rent There is still a lack of support for self-employed and food costs are not reducing by 67% to match that. people during local lockdowns, and many of Aberavon’s The support for those who are self-employed and reliant pubs and hospitality firms are increasingly concerned on the hospitality and leisure industries for business that they are not receiving sufficient compensation. The reduces to just 10%. Chancellor needs to recognise those problems and listen I watched the interview with Natalie Haywood on to those on the Opposition Front Bench, who have been ITV this week. She is the owner of Leaf and OH ME constructive and consistent throughout this process. OH MY,two of our city’sleading hospitality independents, Labour has stated clearly that the Government should and it was heartbreaking to watch her despair at having put in place a job recovery scheme that fixes the problems fought hard to recover from the first lockdown and now with the Government’s schemes, so that employers can being faced with losing the iconic businesses she has keep more staff on, rather than having to let people go; built up, and worse, possibly having to lay off her staff. 421 Covid-19 Economic Support Package14 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Economic Support Package 422

She is far from alone. Another interview was with the businesses that are required to close. There is no support owner of Lunya, a business that has paid more than for those viable businesses severely hampered by the £10 million in taxes in its 10-year history and employs ongoing situation. There is still no answer to the calls of dozens of local people. The business has been adapted the 3 million taxpayers who have been largely excluded to ensure its survival throughout this first lockdown, from financial support since the beginning of this crisis, but he now risks losing his business and his home. and the offer to self-employed people at 20% of average Yellow Sub, one of the best-loved children’s indoor play monthly profits is miserly. areas, was one of the last businesses allowed to open. It The chart and data published by the OECD, an missed the busy summer season and will now miss the independent international body, shows how the UK half-term, with the business being put in jeopardy, jobs was the hardest hit of any major economy from April to being axed and more people without work. Many of June. Growth is slowing and the economy is still 9% smaller these businesses accessed the Government grants in the than before the pandemic struck. Our unemployment first lockdown and saved their businesses, and they rate has hit the highest level in more than three years. reopened, even on a limited capacity basis, in September. Our young people have been hardest hit, but across our This unforeseen enforced lockdown, without that support, communities we know that there are many more job has left them reeling and looking at the bleakest of losses to come.The number of claimants in my constituency futures. is already up 135% since the start of the pandemic. Liverpool’s hospitality and leisure industries are critical Whole sectors have been flattened. Automotive to our economy. In one of the top five UK destinations, manufacturing, which is so important to my constituency the sector contributes £5 billion to the Merseyside and to many others, was brought to a standstill. It has economy and sustains 50,000 jobs. Forcing this entire had its worst September sales this century, and this is sector to close for an indefinite period, without the resulting in the UK industry facing massive financial financial support that was available in the first lockdown, pressure. will decimate our city and our region. Across the economy, from our assembly workers to I must thank our metro Mayor, Steve Rotheram, and our energy engineers, our brewers to our baristas, our the six local authority leaders for pulling together a dancers to our designers, all too many fear losing their £40 million support scheme for the sector, without jobs, but it did not need to be this way. If we look at the which we would undoubtedly be facing a domino effect countries that have the strongest economies now, they of shutdowns in our city centre, but we need more. The are those that took clear early action to suppress and local restrictions grant scheme will not provide enough eradicate the virus. China, Taiwan and other Asia-Pacific to cover the overheads of most of our small independent economies are on course to grow in 2020. They took businesses, the ones that make Liverpool so unique. I early action to suppress covid-19 to extremely low levels call on the Government to repay the city the unspent and put in place highly performing track and trace discretionary grant fund and allow us to invest in our systems. The only consistency from this Government economy. I am a very proud Scouser and I am privileged was their inconsistency.Barbers could work, but beauticians to represent such a resilient city, which always fights could not. Wecould spend four hours alongside 300 people back to protect its people. But let us have a fair fight. on an aeroplane, but not with 50 people on a coach Give us the money we need to protect jobs and livelihoods, or bus. and keep our economy going, and we will respond by The Government had the whole summer to produce a supporting our businesses and workforces, and we will plan for schools, a plan for universities, a plan for care come back stronger. homes and, most importantly, to fix test and trace, instead of which they spent their time telling us to eat 3.23 pm out to help up and they blew their budget. We could Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab): Never have eradicated the virus with a proper strategy, but the has a relationship between the health of a nation and Government dithered and delayed. They ignored the the wealth of a nation been laid quite so bare as it has approaches from personal protective equipment over these past six months. We were promised “world- manufacturers in my constituency—businesses such as beating”by this Prime Minister and his Health Secretary, Staeger Clear Packaging in Coventry and Tecman more and we got it—the UK has seen not only the worst rate locally to me. These businesses could have helped us per 100,000, but the worst economic impact among through, but they were ignored. G20 nations. In response to calls from Labour and the The Labour party has called for the Government to TUC, the Government wisely introduced the furlough follow the science and immediately implement a circuit scheme, and the initial financial support from the breaker to regain control over the virus and implement Government was a lifeline to many of my constituents. a proper strategy to protect public health and therefore Some 16,000 people in Warwick and Leamington were the economy. I just hope that they listen. furloughed. Business grants and loans kept our local economy going, and the district council was superb in 3.27 pm how it did that. Why then, as we head into a second wave, are the Government hellbent on pulling the plug Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab): on that support? On 11 March, the Chancellor promised This debate is about fairness, because the costs and to do “whatever it takes”, but the job support scheme sacrifice faced by businesses in certain sectors are clearly incentivises keeping on one employee instead of two. not equal. That is often just down to definition and People working for businesses that have closed under description contained in regulations. The word local lockdowns will receive no more than two thirds of “unprecedented”has been used an unprecedented number their salaries, even on a minimum wage—imagine that, of times in this House throughout 2020, but asking the minimum wage is no longer a minimum. The winter businesses in sectors that have remained closed since economy plan offers no additional support for those March to keep their doors closed for the winter months 423 Covid-19 Economic Support Package14 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Economic Support Package 424

[Siobhain McDonagh] remain unanswered. I think of John Atkins, who owns the Events Agency, a business based in Newport West. ahead really is unprecedented. Their simple guilt is that His business is part of the exhibitions and events sector, they supply the events and hospitality sector. They which now finds itself on the brink of extinction. John’s supply the flowers, the laundry and the lighting for business has been closed since March 2020 and unlike events. I do not challenge the science. These businesses other parts of the economy it has not been able to understand their responsibility, and the extraordinary open since. circumstances that we are in, but their sacrifice cannot We need proper financial support for businesses such continue to go on unsupported. as John’s. He is part of the creative arts sector and his Although the businesses that I am referring to today business will be viable once we have resolved the current are from my constituency in south London, where crisis. He does not need to retrain, as the Chancellor has additional restrictions are not yet faced, they are reflective suggested, because his business will be back up and of businesses and industries right across the country. I running, and he will contribute to the local and national quote directly from an incredibly sad letter from Mary economy by paying taxes and shopping locally. He Cole,managing director and founder of Skyline Whitespace, needs financial assistance now to ensure his business is a very successful modular reusable exhibition production able to continue in the future. company in my constituency. Mary, a single parent, has I think of Sam, who runs the pub in Newport city built the business up over 20 years while having leukaemia centre—a pub and social enterprise that employs people, and a bone marrow transplant. She employs 52 people helps those in need of food and contributes to the local and had a substantial turnover and profit in 2019, economy. Businesses in the hospitality sector such as but the closure of her industry means that sales have Sam’s need a Government on their side, not one who plummeted and, with winter events now ruled out, her walk on by. company is in freefall. Put simply, it is on the brink of I think of Charlie Magness, a wedding photographer collapse. Government-backed adverts crassly suggest living and working in Newport West. Three years ago, that she should rethink, reskill and reboot, but that is she set up her own business and has been reinvesting hardly welcome news for her staff, who may face and building it up ever since. As a result, she is not imminent redundancy. The Chancellor promised to do eligible for the financial support she so desperately everything that he could, so can the Minister make it requires—another local viable business that will thrive clear to me how the business is expected to survive? I in the future but needs financial support at the moment. quote directly: John Lewis is a local electrician who gets his salary “We do not expect special treatment as a sector. We simply want to be treated like all others that have been allowed to reopen through dividends in the limited company he was advised under Government-approved guidance. We currently do not feel to set up. As a result, he has received no financial like our industry is being treated fairly.” support during the pandemic. His is a vital small business That is no isolated case. I have been contacted by giving a great service to the local community that again actors, musicians, dancers and organisations that support has had no help, and he has fallen through the financial the events industry—floristry,lighting and linen businesses: safety net. Larry Walshe Studios, Just 4 Linen, Dash Linen, Crystal Many of my constituents are hurting and need Ministers Everest Linen, Tuxedo Express, Lightwave Productions, to wake up—and wake up fast. White Light Ltd, Focus Lighting, Oxygen Event Services, 3.33 pm La Credenza, and so many more. They are all unable to open, yet they are receiving little or no support. (Glasgow South West) (SNP): The This is about fairness. How are they supposed to Chancellor told us in March that no one would be left survive? Stipulations and support must come hand in behind, but that has now become: Government support hand, so what message does the Minister have for those is not a universal scheme. businesses today? A harsh winter appears on the horizon I very much associate myself with Members who and must not be made even harsher. The entire sector is have spoken of the excluded: the newly self-employed, on the brink of collapse. many of whom are on zero-hours contracts; freelancers; and artists, including comedians. You would think that 3.30 pm the Government would have shown some solidarity with comedians, but, no, they have not. I make a serious Ruth Jones (Newport West) (Lab): This pandemic point, which was made very well by the hon. Member has hit our country hard. It has hit families, businesses for Newport West (Ruth Jones) about the creative arts. and communities back home in Newport West and The creative arts sector is very important, particularly many other communities across the UK. in bringing young people into work who do not want to The motion has my full support. We need the go into a conventional office environment, factory Government to do whatever they can to support people environment or the rest. The creative arts has that place. through the crisis. I say this with no relish, but the It is important that the Government reflect on the Chancellor’s dithering over whether and how to support support that they could give the creative arts, but also people living under local restrictions has put jobs at on the support that they are going to give, and should risk, left workers in limbo and, as we have heard today give, to those who have not received anything at all from many colleagues, created a sense of chaos, fear since March. and concern in the midst of a pandemic. I very much agree with the criticisms of the job Over recent months so many people from across recovery scheme and what it means for individuals who Newport West have got in touch about their experiences. are currently being paid the national minimum wage. I have listened carefully to each of them and made Now that we are in this crisis, I ask the Government to many direct representations to Ministers, some of which look at poverty-proofing their policies. I hope that the 425 Covid-19 Economic Support Package14 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Economic Support Package 426

Minister might want to say something about that. I are attached to constantly, inch by inch, surrendering have a very real concern that the lack of support they ground to the virus, as we have done over the course of are giving will put more people into poverty. the past seven months. That brings me quite nicely on to universal credit and Many people are confused. They do not know which making the temporary £20 uplift permanent. I am a area they are in. We look at Sky News and it tells us that member of the Work and Pensions Committee, which Derbyshire is in tier 2. In actual fact, only a very small will be looking at this and we hope that it will be part of Derbyshire is in tier 2. The majority of it is in debated in the Chamber in future. I hope the Minister tier 1. I have people saying, “Well, am I allowed to travel will reflect on this because we are in the middle of a into tier 2 to get a meal? Can someone from tier 2 come global pandemic that has delivered a severe blow to into tier 1?” because they have booked a table and want people’s incomes and livelihoods right across these islands, to meet their friends in an area where they are allowed and vulnerable households are taking a disproportionate to do that. There is utter confusion about what is economic hit. Far too many people are living under the actually happening out there. constant threat of poverty and the coronavirus pandemic As I have said to the Chancellor previously, saying crisis is only exacerbating the financial challenges facing that pubs can stay open in tier 2 areas, but you cannot those families and the impacts on their health, particularly meet anyone there other than your own household is their mental health. really disingenuous. All the publicans I speak to say that The findings are that 4 million families could see their moving to that approach, on top of the other restrictions, support slashed if the Government refuse to make the simply makes their businesses unviable. In most cases, £20 uplift to universal credit payments permanent. I they would be better off not paying staff and staying hope that they will reflect on that. Making the £20 closed than they would be opening under those terms, uplift permanent is the bare minimum that we would yet the Government say, “You’re allowed to open, so we ask them to do to rebuild social security, with the do not consider we have anything else to do.” findings showing that it would undo, at most, two thirds The Chancellor is fond of saying how much he has of the benefit cuts made since 2015, let alone those spent, but how much has he wasted? My hon. Friend made during the time of the coalition. With mass the Member for Oxford East alluded to a variety of unemployment on the horizon and other key support things that are leaving people out in the cold. We all schemes being prematurely ended, it is critical that the know 3 million self-employed people have been excluded, Government heed the warnings from anti-poverty charities but what about all the self-employed people who were and strengthen that support by extending the £20 uplift. given money unconditionally when many of them were I hope that the Government will also look at sector carrying on working? There was no conditionality on support, particularly for aviation; I have many constituents the self-employed scheme which said, “The money is employed in that sector. there for you if you are forced to not work, if you are in It is ludicrous that there is not going to be a Budget. a business that is unable to carry on,” yet 3 million That impacts not just on the Scottish Government but people are left out in the cold. on local government, which will have to be in the dark The Government have let people down. The strongest in trying to put its budgets together next year. That is a sign of that fact is how few Conservative speakers there ludicrous position and I hope that the Government will have been in this debate. Just six Back-Bench Tories reflect and think again. wanted to stand up and speak up for the approach the Government are taking. That speaks louder than any speeches we have heard. 3.37 pm

Mr Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): I was really 3.41 pm frustrated by the sense, in some of the interventions on my hon. Friend the shadow Chancellor, that the Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Sunderland South) Labour party,in making this extremely serious suggestion, (Lab): We have heard today from many Members on the was taking lightly the economic consequences of going Opposition Benches, but, sadly, rather fewer from the into a circuit-breaker arrangement. We should not be Government side. Owing to time constraints I am afraid starting from here. We have all been saying throughout I cannot mention every Opposition Member who spoke the course of the past seven months that the approach in today’s debate, but the House will have heard the the Government are taking was not working. They despair that so many of our constituents feel at the failed on PPE. They were slow into lockdown. The prospect of their jobs disappearing, the very real difficulties testing and tracing regime has been an expensive fiasco. their businesses are under, and the growing anger that We have seen the approach that the Government have while the Chancellor thinks it is too hard for the Treasury taken that has got us to this point and has been failing, to provide targeted support, he is very happy to write and they then turn to us and say, “Don’t you realise off businesses and jobs as unviable. What all those there are costs to the economy of trying to get on top of contributions have in common is the need for the this health crisis?” Of course we know that it is costing Government to provide clarity and consistency. Health the economy: we have been saying that throughout the restrictions and economic support must go hand in course of the past seven months. But we have now hand, or else the restrictions will not work and the costs reached a point where the Government have lost control will spiral. of coronavirus and only the measures proposed by the What is extraordinary is that we are having to have Leader of the Opposition yesterday, recommended by this debate at all. At the start of the pandemic, the SAGE, are likely to get us back on top of the virus. So Chancellor—what a delight it is to see him with us there is no naivety from our perspective about the costs today in the Chamber, gracing us with his presence—set that are attached to this, but we also see the costs that out an economic support package for individuals and 427 Covid-19 Economic Support Package14 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Economic Support Package 428

[Bridget Phillipson] Whatever our frustrations about the mishandling of this crisis, what matters above all else are the jobs and businesses. The Government were clear, and our party livelihoods of the people we represent, and Labour’s supported them, that, if restrictions on people’s ability alternative is clear. We would put in place a job recovery to earn a living were necessary as part of a national scheme that fixes the problems with the Government endeavour to bring the virus under control, support was schemes so that employers can keep more staff on, also necessary to prevent destitution and the collapse of rather than having to let them go; that ensures that no businesses across the country. But since June, as area one on the scheme falls into poverty; and that is open to after area has been placed under local restrictions, we all businesses impacted by restrictions. We would ensure have seen the Government slowly retreating from that clear, consistent and fair funding to every local area as obvious common sense. soon as local restrictions are applied. We would reopen Today, millions of people, not just in England but in the Government’s closed £1.3 billion fund to support Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, find themselves businesses in need. We would fix the yawning gaps in living under fresh restrictions. They may be local in the Government schemes for the self-employed. We scope, but the people of my constituency, and all the would stop wasting money on failing private contracts other areas facing such restrictions, rightly look to this to deliver test, trace and isolate. The money should House for answers. The restrictions strike at livelihoods, instead go to local areas, and should not be delivered whether they are employed or self-employed. For others, only once infections have skyrocketed. Our scheme it strikes at the heart of the viability of family-run would be designed and targeted so that public money businesses that for so many years they have put their life was spent where it was most needed, not splashed on and soul into building up. It is heartbreaking to hear unnecessary bonus schemes or without proper safeguards their stories and to hear the fear in people’s voices about for workers. whether they will still have a job by Christmas. It is not too late for the Government to listen—to the Opposition, to businesses, to families, to trades Families and businesses do not expect handouts from unions and to everyone whose livelihood and business the Government; they expect fairness. They expect that, is now at risk—and I urge the Government and the if the Government stop them working, the Government Chancellor once more to stop, to listen, to think again will step in to make sure they do not go hungry or lose and to put in place the support our country desperately their homes. As the shadow Chancellor rightly said, we needs. cannot see people left to sink or swim. As well as the support needed to stop people’s jobs disappearing, the 3.47 pm shadow Chancellor set out the Government’s failure to provide a safety net worthy of name for those whose The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen): jobs have already gone. I am aware that time is short, so It is a privilege to close this debate on behalf of the I will not repeat her questions, but I note that, sadly, Government. First, I thank hon. and right hon. Members none of them was answered. across the House for their insightful and considered contributions. From listening to those contributions, it These are not new concerns. In July, we warned the seems to me that we can agree about the nature of the Government that what was needed was not a stopgap challenge, which is to find a flexible and sustainable statement, but a full back to work Budget. We warned response to the twin health and economic emergencies that removing furlough too soon—a one-size-fits-all caused by the virus. This Government have designed approach—failed to recognise the very different and implemented such a response. The Chancellor called challenges faced by different sectors in the months for a toolkit to protect jobs and businesses over the ahead, with so much uncertainty about the future of the difficult weeks and months to come, and in closing pandemic. We warned then that what would be needed today’s debate, I will outline its newest elements and was targeted support, and that the Government should respond to some of the points made by Members across be planning on that basis. We asked the Government the House. then what they planned to do to support the excluded—the people who fall between the gaps of the Government’s On Monday, the chief medical officer, Professor Chris schemes. Whitty, observed that we face two potential harms: “a harm for society and the economy on the one hand and a harm The refusal to think and to plan ahead and the for health on the other hand.” refusal to fix problems until it is too late is becoming a In other words, the decisions we take are about finding theme of this Government. Five weeks ago today, that right balance. The need for balance as we evolve Conservative Members argued and voted that our economic response was expressed eloquently by my “any deviation from this Government’s proposed plan will cause hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin damage to the United Kingdom economy”. Hollinrake), who has provided wise counsel over recent Only a fortnight had passed before the Chancellor was months and set out very clearly how the Government’s dragged to this House by the shadow Chancellor and intentions are to keep as much open as possible for as deviated from his plan—to announce a winter plan, a long as possible.In formulating the Government’seconomic replacement for furlough. Within weeks, he was at it response to the pandemic—the subject of today’s again, on television this time, announcing yet another debate—my right hon. Friend the Chancellor has sought deviation. Of course, we cannot claim perfect foresight, that balance. He said earlier that we must not shy away but I do not think anyone in this House would have from the burden of responsibility to take decisions and foreseen, even in our darkest nightmares, that the test, lead. We have not, and we will not. trace and isolate system would still be such an The primary goal of our economic policy remains almighty mess almost seven months after the start of unchanged: it is to support people’s jobs. That is why we this pandemic. have progressed the next phase of our winter economy 429 Covid-19 Economic Support Package14 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Economic Support Package 430 plan with the express intention of laying the track for income for the lowest earners, this means that someone economic recovery by protecting jobs through the on the job support scheme at 67% of their original coming months. As the Chancellor said, the new phase earnings will see universal credit make up at least 63% of of that plan has three key elements: the job support the 33% they have lost. This will mean that they will end scheme; cash grants for businesses that are forced to up, in many cases, with nearly 90% of their original close; and additional funding for local authorities. These income. more targeted measures will come into force as the furlough scheme winds down at the end of the month. Kevin Hollinrake: Can I take the Minister back to the That scheme has supported more than 9 million jobs, loan schemes, which were delivered at pace and were a but the House will understand that it cannot continue fantastic success? Does he agree that we will need a new indefinitely, as the Chancellor made clear from the iteration of those loans scheme to take us through the outset. next phase and that, wherever possible, we should make First, we will expand the job support scheme. This those loans available to all businesses, regardless of will help to protect jobs in businesses that can continue where they hold their business account, including those to operate as well as in those that cannot. For those that hold that account with non-bank lenders? businesses that can open safely but where there is reduced or uncertain demand, the Government will directly John Glen: I very much agree with my hon. Friend. subsidise employees’ wages, meaning that those That is something that the Chancellor and I are working employees can work shorter hours rather than being on as a live issue, and we will report back to the House made redundant. Businesses that are forced to close will in due course. also be aided by the scheme. In circumstances where The second element of the winter economy plan is staff are unable to work for a week or more, they will cash grants. Businesses in England that are required to still be paid two thirds of their normal wage up to close for health reasons can now claim a grant of up to £2,100 a month. This will be covered by the Government £3,000 depending on the value of their property. That is and will apply right across the whole of the United a cash grant, not a loan, that they will never need to pay Kingdom. Crucially, because the scheme will run for six back and they can use for any business cost. Should the months, it will give people and businesses the certainty devolved Administrations in Northern Ireland, Scotland they need. We have intentionally designed the scheme and Wales adopt a similar approach, we will make an so that there is no gap in support for employees. Staff additional £1.3 billion available to them to help—part can remain on the furlough scheme until 31 October of a £7.2 billion total package—further demonstrating and will benefit from the new job support scheme from the importance of the Union as we face these challenges the following day. together. Throughout this crisis, we have not forgotten about I turn to the third component: local authorities. I pay the self-employed, which is why we are extending the tribute to the efforts of local authority leaders and their existing self-employed income support scheme for a officers throughout the crisis, and I pay particular tribute further six months. This is in addition to the support to my own in Wiltshire. Up to £465 million will be made through initiatives such as business rates relief, bounce available to those local authorities at high or very high back loans and the local restrictions support grant. For alert to support public health and local economic initiatives. those who question the generosity of the job support That is on top of the £1 billion to protect vital services, scheme, we have looked closely at schemes implemented which itself is in addition to the £3.7 billion we have by our friends in countries such as Germany and Italy, already provided since the spring. and they are very closely in line. Let me conclude by saying that, as we have throughout Importantly,businesses can also access a wide spectrum this crisis, we will continue to listen carefully to represent- of other help that we have made available in recent ations of hon. and right hon. Members on behalf of months. As the City Minister, I have been most closely their constituents, keep the whole of our support package involved in the temporary loan schemes that have been under review and, where necessary, adapt and evolve rolled out at pace to meet the needs of businesses our response. Members from across the House have large and small and recently extended to ensure that made representations today, and the Government will businesses that still want to access them can do so. As of reflect carefully on them. 20 September, more than £57 billion has been provided I vividly recall coming to the House in March, 209 days to businesses of all sizes through Government guaranteed ago, prior to the launch of the furlough scheme, to answer loan schemes. an urgent question on jobs. The House made its view At the same time, the welfare safety net available to plain on that occasion, as it has today. We were listening those most in need has become more generous and then, and we are listening now. We will do everything responsive. Treasury analysis shows that covid-19 welfare possible to carry this country through the crisis, in the changes, together with Government interventions since knowledge that we can and we will succeed. We need March, have supported the poorest working households what the Chancellor has called a consistent, co-operative most of all, reducing the scale of losses for working and balanced approach. The Government will continue households by up to two thirds. I note the comments to strive for that crucial balance, protecting lives and made by the hon. Member for Glasgow South West livelihoods flexibly and sustainably for as long as it (Chris Stephens), who is no longer in his place, about takes. That is why I urge the House to support the the continuing need to address carefully the needs of Government amendment. the most vulnerable.The universal credit standard allowance Question put (Standing Order No. 31(2)), That the and working tax credit basic element have both been original words stand part of the Question. increased by £20 per week for 2020-21, and given the way in which universal credit replaces 63% of lost The House divided: Ayes 261, Noes 338. 431 Covid-19 Economic Support Package14 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Economic Support Package 432

Division No. 136] [3.57 pm Kyle, Peter Qureshi, Yasmin Lake, Ben Rayner, Angela AYES Lammy, rh Mr David Reed, Steve Lavery, Ian Rees, Christina Abbott, rh Ms Diane Dowd, Peter Law, Chris Reeves, Ellie Abrahams, Debbie Dromey, Jack Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Reeves, Rachel Ali, Rushanara Eagle, Ms Angela Lewis, Clive Reynolds, Jonathan Ali, Tahir Eagle, Maria Linden, David Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Eastwood, Colum Lloyd, Tony Rimmer, Ms Marie Amesbury, Mike Edwards, Jonathan Long Bailey, Rebecca Robinson, Gavin Anderson, Fleur Efford, Clive MacAskill, Kenny Rodda, Matt Antoniazzi, Tonia Elliott, Julie MacNeil, Angus Brendan Russell-Moyle, Lloyd Ashworth, Jonathan Elmore, Chris Madders, Justin Saville Roberts, rh Liz Bardell, Hannah Eshalomi, Florence Mahmood, Mr Khalid Shah, Naz Barker, Paula Esterson, Bill Mahmood, Shabana Shannon, Jim Beckett, rh Margaret Evans, Chris Malhotra, Seema Sharma, Mr Virendra Begum, Apsana Farron, Tim Maskell, Rachael Sheerman, Mr Barry Benn, rh Hilary Farry, Stephen Matheson, Christian Sheppard, Tommy Betts, Mr Clive Fellows, Marion Mc Nally, John Siddiq, Tulip Black, Mhairi Ferrier, Margaret McCabe, Steve Slaughter, Andy Blackford, rh Ian Flynn, Stephen McCarthy, Kerry Smith, Alyn Blackman, Kirsty Fovargue, Yvonne McDonagh, Siobhain Smith, Cat Blake, Olivia Foxcroft, Vicky McDonald, Andy Smith, Jeff Bonnar, Steven Foy, Mary Kelly McDonald, Stewart Malcolm Smith, Nick Brabin, Tracy Furniss, Gill McDonald, Stuart C. Smyth, Karin Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Gardiner, Barry McDonnell, rh John Sobel, Alex Brennan, Kevin Gibson, Patricia McFadden, rh Mr Pat Spellar, rh John Brock, Deidre Gill, Preet Kaur McGinn, Conor Starmer, rh Keir Brown, Alan Girvan, Paul McGovern, Alison Stephens, Chris Brown, Ms Lyn Glindon, Mary McKinnell, Catherine Stevens, Jo Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Grady, Patrick McLaughlin, Anne Stone, Jamie Bryant, Chris Grant, Peter McMahon, Jim Streeting, Wes Buck, Ms Karen Gray, Neil McMorrin, Anna Burgon, Richard Green, Kate Stringer, Graham Mearns, Ian Butler, Dawn Greenwood, Lilian Sultana, Zarah Miliband, rh Edward Byrne, Ian Greenwood, Margaret Tami, rh Mark Mishra, Navendu Byrne, rh Liam Griffith, Nia Tarry, Sam Monaghan, Carol Cadbury, Ruth Gwynne, Andrew Thewliss, Alison Moran, Layla Callaghan, Amy Haigh, Louise Thomas, Gareth Morden, Jessica Cameron, Dr Lisa Hamilton, Fabian Thomas-Symonds, Nick Morgan, Stephen Campbell, rh Sir Alan Hanna, Claire Thompson, Owen Morris, Grahame Carden, Dan Hanvey, Neale Murray, Ian Thomson, Richard Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hardy, Emma Murray, James Timms, rh Stephen Chamberlain, Wendy Harman, rh Ms Harriet Nandy, Lisa Trickett, Jon Champion, Sarah Harris, Carolyn Newlands, Gavin Turner, Karl Chapman, Douglas Hayes, Helen Nichols, Charlotte Twigg, Derek Cherry, Joanna Healey, rh , John Twist, Liz Clark, Feryal Hendrick, Sir Mark Norris, Alex Vaz, rh Valerie Cooper, Daisy Hendry, Drew O’Hara, Brendan West, Catherine Cooper, Rosie Hill, Mike Olney, Sarah Western, Matt Cooper, rh Yvette Hillier, Meg Onwurah, Chi Whitehead, Dr Alan Corbyn, rh Jeremy Hobhouse, Wera Oppong-Asare, Abena Whitford, Dr Philippa Cowan, Ronnie Hodge, rh Dame Margaret Osamor, Kate Whitley, Mick Coyle, Neil Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Osborne, Kate Crawley, Angela Hollern, Kate Whittome, Nadia Oswald, Kirsten Creasy, Stella Hopkins, Rachel Williams, Hywel Owatemi, Taiwo Cruddas, Jon Hosie, Stewart Wilson, Munira Owen, Sarah Cryer, John Howarth, rh Sir George Winter, Beth Peacock, Stephanie Cummins, Judith Hussain, Imran Wishart, Pete Pennycook, Matthew Cunningham, Alex Jardine, Christine Yasin, Mohammad Perkins, Mr Toby Daby, Janet Jarvis, Dan Zeichner, Daniel Phillips, Jess David, Wayne Johnson, Dame Diana Phillipson, Bridget Tellers for the Ayes: Davies, Geraint Johnson, Kim Pollard, Luke Colleen Fletcher and Davies-Jones, Alex Jones, Darren Powell, Lucy Bambos Charalambous Day, Martyn Jones, Gerald De Cordova, Marsha Jones, rh Mr Kevan Debbonaire, Thangam Jones, Ruth NOES Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Jones, Sarah Adams, Nigel Allan, Lucy Docherty-Hughes, Martin Kane, Mike Afolami, Bim Amess, Sir David Dodds, Anneliese Keeley, Barbara Afriyie, Adam Anderson, Stuart Doogan, Dave Kendall, Liz Dorans, Allan Khan, Afzal Aiken, Nickie Andrew, Stuart Doughty, Stephen Kinnock, Stephen Aldous, Peter Ansell, Caroline 433 Covid-19 Economic Support Package14 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Economic Support Package 434

Argar, Edward Davison, Dehenna Hinds, rh Damian Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Atherton, Sarah Dinenage, Caroline Hoare, Simon Mohindra, Mr Gagan Atkins, Victoria Dines, Miss Sarah Holden, Mr Richard Moore, Damien Bacon, Gareth Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hollinrake, Kevin Moore, Robbie Bacon, Mr Richard Docherty, Leo Hollobone, Mr Philip Mordaunt, rh Penny Badenoch, Kemi Donelan, Michelle Holloway, Adam Morris, Anne Marie Bailey, Shaun Double, Steve Holmes, Paul Morris, David Baillie, Siobhan Dowden, rh Oliver Howell, John Morris, James Baker, Duncan Doyle-Price, Jackie Howell, Paul Morrissey, Joy Baker, Mr Steve Drax, Richard Huddleston, Nigel Morton, Wendy Baldwin, Harriett Drummond, Mrs Flick Hudson, Dr Neil Mullan, Dr Kieran Barclay, rh Steve Duddridge, James Hughes, Eddie Mumby-Croft, Holly Baron, Mr John Duguid, David Hunt, Jane Murray, Mrs Sheryll Baynes, Simon Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Hunt, rh Jeremy Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Bell, Aaron Eastwood, Mark Hunt, Tom Neill, Sir Robert Benton, Scott Edwards, Ruth Jack, rh Mr Alister Nici, Lia Beresford, Sir Paul Ellis, rh Michael Javid, rh Sajid Nokes, rh Caroline Berry, rh Jake Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Norman, rh Jesse Bhatti, Saqib Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Jenkin, Sir Bernard O’Brien, Neil Blackman, Bob Eustice, rh George Jenkinson, Mark Offord, Dr Matthew Blunt, Crispin Evans, Dr Luke Jenkyns, Andrea Opperman, Guy Bone, Mr Peter Evennett, rh Sir David Johnson, Gareth Parish, Neil Bottomley, Sir Peter Everitt, Ben Johnston, David Paterson, rh Mr Owen Bowie, Andrew Fabricant, Michael Jones, Andrew Pawsey, Mark Bradley, Ben Farris, Laura Jones, rh Mr David Penning, rh Sir Mike Bradley, rh Karen Fell, Simon Jones, Fay Penrose, John Brady, Sir Graham Fletcher, Katherine Jones, Mr Marcus Percy, Andrew Braverman, rh Suella Fletcher, Mark Jupp, Simon Philp, Chris Brereton, Jack Fletcher, Nick Kawczynski, Daniel Pincher, rh Christopher Bridgen, Andrew Ford, Vicky Kearns, Alicia Poulter, Dr Dan Brine, Steve Foster, Kevin Keegan, Gillian Pow, Rebecca Bristow, Paul Francois, rh Mr Mark Knight, rh Sir Greg Prentis, Victoria Britcliffe, Sara Frazer, Lucy Knight, Julian Pritchard, Mark Brokenshire, rh James Freer, Mike Kruger, Danny Quin, Jeremy Browne, Anthony Freeman, George Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Quince, Will Bruce, Fiona Fuller, Richard Largan, Robert Randall, Tom Buchan, Felicity Fysh, Mr Marcus Latham, Mrs Pauline Redwood, rh John Burghart, Alex Gale, rh Sir Roger Leigh, rh Sir Edward Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Burns, rh Conor Garnier, Mark Levy, Ian Richardson, Angela Butler, Rob Ghani, Ms Nusrat Lewer, Andrew Roberts, Rob Cairns, rh Alun Gibb, rh Nick Lewis, rh Brandon Robertson, Mr Laurence Carter, Andy Gibson, Peter Lewis, rh Dr Julian Robinson, Mary Cartlidge, James Gideon, Jo Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Rosindell, Andrew Cash, Sir William Gillan, rh Dame Cheryl Loder, Chris Rowley, Lee Cates, Miriam Glen, John Logan, Mark Russell, Dean Caulfield, Maria Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Longhi, Marco Rutley, David Chalk, Alex Gove, rh Michael Lopez, Julia Sambrook, Gary Chishti, Rehman Lopresti, Jack Saxby, Selaine Graham, Richard Churchill, Jo Lord, Mr Jonathan Scully, Paul Grant, Mrs Helen Clark, rh Greg Loughton, Tim Seely, Bob Gray, James Clarke, Mr Simon Mackinlay, Craig Selous, Andrew Grayling, rh Chris Clarke, Theo Mackrory, Cherilyn Shapps, rh Grant Clarke-Smith, Brendan Green, rh Damian Maclean, Rachel Shelbrooke, rh Alec Clarkson, Chris Griffith, Andrew Mak, Alan Simmonds, David Cleverly, rh James Griffiths, Kate Malthouse, Kit Skidmore, rh Chris Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Grundy, James Mangnall, Anthony Smith, Chloe Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Gullis, Jonathan Mann, Scott Smith, Greg Colburn, Elliot Halfon, rh Robert Marson, Julie Smith, Henry Collins, Damian Hall, Luke May, rh Mrs Theresa Smith, rh Julian Costa, Alberto Hammond, Stephen Mayhew, Jerome Smith, Royston Courts, Robert Harper, rh Mr Mark Maynard, Paul Solloway, Amanda Coutinho, Claire Harris, Rebecca McCartney, Karl Spencer, Dr Ben Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Harrison, Trudy McPartland, Stephen Spencer, rh Mark Crabb, rh Stephen Hart, Sally-Ann McVey, rh Esther Stafford, Alexander Crosbie, Virginia Hart, rh Simon Menzies, Mark Stephenson, Andrew Crouch, Tracey Hayes, rh Sir John Mercer, Johnny Stevenson, Jane Daly, James Heald, rh Sir Oliver Merriman, Huw Stevenson, John Davies, Gareth Heappey, James Metcalfe, Stephen Stewart, Bob Davies, Dr James Heaton-Harris, Chris Millar, Robin Stewart, Iain Davies, Mims Henderson, Gordon Miller, rh Mrs Maria Streeter, Sir Gary Davies, Philip Henry, Darren Milling, rh Amanda Stride, rh Mel Davis, rh Mr David Higginbotham, Antony Mills, Nigel Stuart, Graham 435 Covid-19 Economic Support Package14 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Economic Support Package 436

Sturdy, Julian Wallis, Dr Jamie Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): I Sunak, rh Rishi Warburton, David thank the hon. Lady for her point of order, and for Sunderland, James Warman, Matt having given me notice of her intention to raise this Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Watling, Giles matter. I trust that the hon. Lady has informed the right Syms, Sir Robert Webb, Suzanne hon. and learned Member for Holborn and St Pancras. Thomas, Derek Whately, Helen Throup, Maggie Wheeler, Mrs Heather Sara Britcliffe indicated assent. Timpson, Edward Whittaker, Craig Tolhurst, Kelly Whittingdale, rh Mr John Madam Deputy Speaker: I see that she is nodding, so Tomlinson, Justin Wiggin, Bill she has informed him. It is very important for good Tomlinson, Michael Wild, James order in the Chamber that if a specific criticism is being Tracey, Craig Williams, Craig made, the Member being criticised should be informed. Trevelyan, rh Anne-Marie Williamson, rh Gavin That is perfectly in order. Trott, Laura Wood, Mike The hon. Lady asks me how she might draw attention Tugendhat, Tom Wragg, Mr William Vara, Mr Shailesh to—excuse me, please stay back there. I am addressing the Wright, rh Jeremy Vickers, Martin hon. Lady; you have to sit down. [Interruption.] Yes, no Young, Jacob Vickers, Matt matter what is going on in here, it is important that we Zahawi, Nadhim Villiers, rh Theresa keep social distance, and are seen to keep social distance, Wakeford, Christian Tellers for the Noes: at all times. Walker, Sir Charles Tom Pursglove and The hon. Lady will be well aware that the Chair is not Walker, Mr Robin David T. C. Davies responsible for remarks made and points brought forward by right hon. and hon. Members in the Chamber, nor is Question accordingly negatived. it for me to adjudicate as to whether what has been said is The list of Members currently certified as eligible for a or is not accurate—which is fortunate, because that would proxy vote, and of the Members nominated as their be a full-time job. However, the hon. Lady has asked me proxy, is published at the end of today’s debates. howshemightdrawattentiontothepointthatshehasmade, and I would say to her that she has already done so. Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 31(2)), That the proposed words be there added. Naz Shah (Bradford West) (Lab): On a point of order, Question agreed to. Madam Deputy Speaker. In the spirit of making corrections,this morning during Prime Minister’squestions, The Deputy Speaker declared the main Question, as the Prime Minister suggested that 93% of the current amended, to be agreed to (Standing Order No. 31(2)). income of people in pubs and the hospitality industry would Resolved, be ring-fenced or supported, which is actually untrue That this House welcomes the Government’s package of support and is very confusing for my constituents. I did not have worth over £200 billion to help protect jobs and businesses the honour of informing him, but given that Twitter is through the coronavirus pandemic, including the eight-month awash with it, I am sure that he is well aware of this. long Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme, Self-Employment Income Support Scheme, £1,000 Job Retention Bonus, unprecedented Dame Eleanor Laing: First, I must say to the hon. loan schemes, business grants and tax cuts; further welcomes the Lady that she heard my answer to the hon. Member for pledge to protect, create and support jobs through measures in Hyndburn (Sara Britcliffe). This is a matter for debate, the £30 billion Plan for Jobs such as Eat Out to Help Out, VAT not a point of order for the Chair. I have to say to the and stamp duty cuts and the £2 billion Kickstart Scheme; hon. Member for Bradford West (Naz Shah) that as she acknowledges the further support for jobs with increased cash grants and the expanded Job Support Scheme to support those was criticising a Member—whoever that Member might businesses legally required to close due to national or local be—she ought to have informed the hon. Member that lockdowns; and further acknowledges that this is one of the most she was intending to do so. Once again, it is a point of comprehensive and generous packages of support anywhere in debate and it is not for me to adjudicate on the accuracy the world. of statistics, but she has drawn her important point to the attention of the House and, indeed, to those on the Sara Britcliffe (Hyndburn) (Con): On a point of Treasury Bench. order, Madam Deputy Speaker. This afternoon during Prime Minister’s Questions, the Leader of the Opposition, Chris Bryant: Further to that point of order, Madam the right hon. and learned Member for Holborn and Deputy Speaker.I hear what you say,but my understanding St Pancras (Keir Starmer), said: was that you did not have to notify Ministers. Ministers are, as it were, fair game, because they are accountable “this morning, the council leaders in Greater Manchester that he to the whole House. That has never been the rule that just quoted, including the Mayor and the Conservative leader of has operated previously and, of course, there is a specific Bolton Council, said in a press statement that they support a circuit break above tier 3 restrictions”. reason for that, because Ministers have an opportunity to correct the record. The Prime Minister, if he wanted The leader of Bolton Council has since clarified that he to, could correct the record, but as you say, he might made no such remarks, nor was the press statement spend all day every day correcting the record. unanimous as the Leader of the Opposition suggested. The press statement also qualified support for a circuit Dame Eleanor Laing: And I might spend all day every break, which the Leader of the Opposition inadvertently day adjudicating between one side of the House and the failed to represent. Madam Deputy Speaker, could you other, and that is not what I am here for, but I am advise me on how I can secure a correction from the grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the point that he has Leader of the Opposition so that the record accurately made. I am very anxious not to eat into the time on the reflects the statement made by council leaders in important motion in the name of the Leader of the Greater Manchester? Opposition, which we are about to debate. 437 14 OCTOBER 2020 Local Contact Tracing 438

Local Contact Tracing The minutes of the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies meeting from three weeks ago on 21 September, as well as suggesting a circuit break to Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): I deal with the rising infection numbers, reflected on the inform the House that Mr Speaker has selected the performance of the Government’s approach to test, amendment in the name of the Prime Minister. trace and isolate. The minutes said that “relatively low levels of engagement with the system…coupled 4.17 pm with testing delays…is having a marginal impact on transmission”. ( West) (Lab): I beg to move, All that money spent, yet this key part of the Government’s That this House notes the consistently high performance of system to keep us safe is only having a marginal impact local contact tracing systems when compared with the centralised on transmission. system established by the Government; notes the wealth of evidence that the considerable sums of public money spent so far on the Alberto Costa (South Leicestershire) (Con): Does the national system would deliver better public health outcomes if hon. Lady not accept that this is a unique situation? devolved to local authorities and public health experts; and calls This is one of the worst crises that this country has ever on the Government to extend the additional funding for contact tracing available in Tier 3 areas to all parts of the country and faced, and I invite her to assist the Government, rather ensure that councils and local public health teams receive the than constantly opposing every measure that the resources and powers they require. Government are taking in what is an extremely challenging This Government are obsessed with a failed model of situation. outsourcing. It is failing to reach people who come into contact with someone with the virus, it is not getting Rachel Reeves: That is exactly why I am urging the information to local councils who need to act on it, and Government to use the local expertise we have in all our it is wasting hundreds of millions of pounds of taxpayers’ local authorities around the country. We should not money that could be spent on a local response using reinvent the wheel, but use that local expertise, rather local expertise. It is not too late for the Government to than wasting hundreds of millions of pounds of taxpayers’ change course, and I urge them to do so today. money. Yesterday, my right hon. Friend the Leader of the The Prime Minister promised a world-beating test Opposition made the case for a short, sharp circuit and trace system, yet we have one that is barely functioning. break of restrictions lasting two to three weeks to firmly We have a system that is now so broken that SAGE is apply the brakes on the rising infection numbers that we saying it is making next to no difference. We are all are seeing. A crucial aim of the circuit break is to drive paying the price for these terrible mistakes. The truth is down infections, but there is another purpose as well: it that as soon as the Government looked to a privatised would buy the Government some crucial time to fix the solution, a political choice was made about how to failures in contact tracing. respond to a public health crisis. The current model of contact tracing is broken and it Serco is not integrated into the fabric of any of our will get worse, not better, while corporations such as communities. Ministers could have spoken to the Local Serco are allowed in the driving seat rather than local Government Association. They could have spoken to public health teams. We might ask: how bad is the the Association of Directors of Public Health. Instead, Government’s approach to contact tracing? they chose to speak to Serco. There is a cosiness between the Conservative Government and these outsourcing One director of public health said: companies, despite their failures to deliver. “It needs someone with the courage to say” Let us look at Serco’s record. Last year, Serco was it “isn’t working”, and it was described as a fined £23 million as part of a settlement with the “catastrophe…the very worst system I’ve…seen”. Serious Fraud Office over electronic tagging contracts. Well, we do have the courage to say that it is not In December, two former senior executives at Serco working and I urge the Government to have that courage, were charged for that offence. In 2018, Serco was fined too. £2.8 million after it was revealed that it was providing asylum seekers with squalid, unsafe slum housing. Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): My hon. Friend One would think that whenever Serco bids for a is right to highlight Serco. Does she agree that another contract, sirens would be going off all over Whitehall, problem with test and trace is the number of consultants except that Serco did not bid for the contact tracing being employed, with more than a thousand from one contract. It was handed it on a plate, with no competition, firm alone—Deloitte—that charges several thousand no rigour and no transparency. Ministers may claim pounds a day for its senior consultants? Should we not that it is a coincidence that hundreds of millions of be told how much it is costing and what these people are pounds of public contracts have been awarded to companies doing? with clear links to the Conservative party, including Serco. That would be a heck of a coincidence, wouldn’t it? Rachel Reeves: My hon. Friend makes his point well. He has been a staunch advocate of transparency and Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con): I am glad to see the value for money in the delivery of public services. The old tendency is back in the Opposition of private bad, Government’s own Minister in the in the public good. With the hon. Lady’s proposal around other place has made those points as well, saying that local authorities wanting to do more on test and trace, the Government are spending too much money on presumably they would not be doing it for free. They consultants when that work could be done in-house would have to be paid, and it would cost a lot of money. with better value for taxpayers. I very much agree with Presumably she has costed that. Will she just put on the my hon. Friend’s comments. record for the House at what price she has costed that? 439 Local Contact Tracing14 OCTOBER 2020 Local Contact Tracing 440

Rachel Reeves: Let us be clear: there are places that care, or they will not say. I fear that the more we know are doing this—for example, Wales, to which I shall about what is happening under the bonnet in contact come later—and the difference between what we see tracing, the worse it gets. with Serco and what we see when it is done in-house is that with the latter more people are being traced, which Andrew Bowie (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) means more people are going into self-isolation and a (Con): I fear that the hon. Lady may have inadvertently slower spread of the virus. That protects all our lives misled the House earlier. She told the House that the and means that our economy can get back on track. Government did not speak to local government authorities The Government are the ones who are wasting hundreds throughout the country, but on 22 May, many months of millions of pounds of taxpayers’ money on a system before Labour even started to talk about involving local that is failing—a system that is letting us down. authorities, the Government provided £300 million for Outsourced contact tracing is part of £11 billion of local authorities to set up local test and trace services, public procurement in this pandemic that has not gone so what she said at the Dispatch Box was patently out to competitive tender. The Government do not even untrue and she should apologise. know whether they are getting value for money because they do not even bother to test it in the marketplace or Rachel Reeves: Local councils are desperate to take against what local authorities can deliver. For the on the responsibilities from Serco. They are begging the outsourcing companies this is a gold rush. I have called Government: “Hand over the resources and the for the National Audit Office to investigate, and I look responsibilities, because we can do it better than you.” I forward to its findings later this year. I am sure that all will come later to the issues relating to what the Government Members will look forward to the findings from that are doing with tier 3 compared with the other tiers. investigation so that they can check for themselves that they are getting the value for money that they seem to (Leeds North West) (Lab/Co-op): My believe they are getting. hon. Friend and parliamentary neighbour is making an One issue that I hope the National Audit Office excellent speech. If local authorities undertake similar addresses is the murky subcontracting of the Government’s procurement, they have to utilise best value and have a contractors. My hon. Friend the Member for Dulwich social value framework. If they conducted procurement and West Norwood (Helen Hayes) asked the Government as the Government have, the Government would bring how many companies Serco has subcontracted its work in commissioners. This is an absolute scandal. on contact tracing to; the answer was 29 companies other than Serco. The amount subcontracted to other Rachel Reeves: I could not agree more. My hon. firms represents 80% of staffing. Who are these businesses? Friend will know that in Leeds, which we both have the The Government have refused to say—because Serco privilege of representing, with the expertise we have on decided that it was too commercially sensitive. We now the ground, our local authority and director of public have a Government that outsource even decisions to health could be doing a much better job than Serco is private outsourcing companies. The situation is frankly doing. Indeed, when we have had local outbreaks in ludicrous. Leeds, it has been the local authority going out and It has taken investigative journalists, whistleblowers knocking on doors to ensure that people know what is and the Good Law Project to start to piece together the going on—something that Serco cannot or does not do. jigsaw. Why the shyness? Presumably because if the Government revealed what was going on, it would not Mr ( South East) (Lab): The stand up to public scrutiny. One business to which Serco hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine has subcontracted work is Concentrix, which was previously (Andrew Bowie) said that £300 million had been given involved in scandals relating to tax credits. to local authorities to do tracking and tracing. My In September, it was reported that another Serco recollection is that it was not given for that purpose. It subcontractor, Intelling, was paying bonuses of £500 to was given to local authorities to help them develop staff despite poor contact rates. One contact tracer outbreak control plans and set up outbreak control employed by Intelling was reported to have said: committees. There has never been any general amount of money given to local authorities to do tracking and “I couldn’t believe it when I got my bonus. It’s an absolute disgrace…I’m getting paid and now given a bonus for doing tracing. That has been a demand, but it has not been nothing…I really want to help and be involved and make calls responded to by the Government. and be useful. But I’m not being given anything to do. The system is on its knees.” Rachel Reeves: I thank my hon. Friend the Chair of This evidence is devastating because it shows that people the Housing, Communities and Local Government who should have been contacted are not being contacted Committee, who is better informed than most in the and that, far from what the hon. Member for Winchester House. (Steve Brine) said, the Government are handing out In the last Parliament, I had the honour of chairing money to companies without getting the value for money the Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy Committee, that we should all be demanding. and it was a privilege to see the work of so many I challenge the Minister today to name all Serco’s businesses, which are the backbone of our economy. I subcontractors and to publish details on how much also chaired the inquiry into the collapse of Carillion—a they have been paid and for what. I will give way to the house of cards built through outsourced contracts from Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, Government. When I see the endless contracts and the the hon. Member for Bury St Edmunds (Jo Churchill), enormous sums of money handed over todayto outsourcing if she would like to tell the House that information. companies,I cannot help but conclude that the Government This is revealing: either they do not know, they do not have learnt none of the lessons from that collapse and 441 Local Contact Tracing14 OCTOBER 2020 Local Contact Tracing 442 that failure. It makes me really angry that, despite all The Minister will argue, I am sure, that local and the work done and all the evidence presented, the same national teams are working perfectly well together, but thing is happening again. if she were to show some humility and some honesty, There are clear alternatives, and there always were. she would admit that it is clear that local services are The World Health Organisation issued clear guidance delivering better. In fact, the national system is hugely for contact tracing, which states: flawed, in that it is totally disconnected from the communities while hoovering up most of the resource. “Critical elements of the implementation of contact tracing This week the Government said they would provide are community engagement and public support”. funding to councils for contact tracing in areas with a That should have been the model for England, so why tier-3 alert level, but what about tiers 1 and 2 to stop was it not? We do not need to travel halfway round the them ending up in tier 3? It is a bit like a fire brigade world for a successful alternative. We can look to Wales— handing out smoke alarms to a family whose house is a model where contact tracing is devolved to local already ablaze. They needed that support some time communities. In the most recent figures for Wales, of ago. If they had had it, they might not have ended up in the 2,190 positive cases that were eligible for follow-up, this situation. 91% were reached and asked to provide details of their recent contacts. Of the 10,516 contacts, 83% were Matt Rodda (Reading East) (Lab): Will my hon. successfully contacted. That is in stark contrast with the Friend give way? Government’s Serco model, in which just 69% of contacts were reached—a figure that is getting worse week in, Rachel Reeves: I will make some progress and conclude week out. to give others time to speak. Perhaps if the Welsh Government were a private Ten years of austerity, fragmentation and privatisation outsourcing consultancy, the Government would have have left our country less resilient to face a pandemic paid them a small fortune to take over the system in like this. Public health budgets have been slashed by England. Instead, the Government turned to outside cuts from central Government. Sustained new investment consultants, paid £563,000 of public money this summer is needed to rebuild our public services during this crisis for producing a report on test and trace—a report that and beyond. The Government have squandered enormous we have all paid for, but none of us has seen. The sums of money on a centrally dictated outsourcing Government could have learned valuable lessons for model, and Ministers should hang their heads in shame free. They could have gone to Mark Drakeford rather because it has failed. than to McKinsey. The consequence of this failure means we are not Knowing all this, my hon. Friend the Member for getting the virus under control after months of sacrifice Leicester South (Jonathan Ashworth) and I wrote to the by the British people, so my message today is simple: Health Secretary in August, urging him not to renew sack Serco and give those resources to local councils, Serco’s contract and to put public health teams in save lives, protect livelihoods and learn these lessons charge. However, Serco’s contract was not terminated—it before it is too late. was extended. Out of necessity, with Serco tracing failing, many councils have had to create their own tracing Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Before systems with a fraction of the money. The Secretary of I call the Minister to respond, I give notice that we will State for Housing, Communities and Local Government start with a time limit of five minutes for Back-Bench knows that this is a problem. On Sunday, he said that speeches, and it is likely to be reduced quite soon. local councils are “bound to be better than Whitehall or national contact tracers.” 4.36 pm That begs the question, why not give those resources, powers and responsibilities to local government if even The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health the Secretary of State realises that they would do a and Social Care (JoChurchill): I beg to move an amendment, better job and deliver better value for money? Instead, to leave out from “when” to end and insert the Government have wasted over half a year on a “working in conjunction with NHS Test and Trace; welcomes the system that is failing, with mounting evidence of that huge expansion of testing to a capacity of over 340,000 tests a growing by the day. day; applauds the efforts of all involved in testing and contact tracing both at a national and local level; recognises that 650,000 It is quite simple. As Liz Robin, director of public people have now been asked to isolate thanks to the work of NHS health in Peterborough, has pointed out, people were Test and Trace, and supports the Government’s efforts to expand always more likely to answer a call from a local phone testing and tracing yet further.”. number, and unlike national contact tracers, local tracers I agree with the final sentence of the hon. Member are able to knock on doors and visit people if they are for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) that this is about protecting not responding. Peterborough has managed to contact people. The entire focus of the Government from day between 80% and 90% of the cases that the national tracers one has been on driving a system that can protect people. were not able to. As the Mayor of Greater Manchester, It is not a zero-sum game, and it is not an either/or. Andy Burnham, said: This pandemic is the most unprecedented public health “Council leaders in many regions have been relying on volunteers emergency we have faced in a generation. We knew that but this cannot continue. It can’t be done on the cheap—councils our response would require a phenomenal national effort have to be given more resources to employ expanded, trained and that we would need to work closely with others. teams.” Local authorities and directors of public health have The resources need to be shifted from Serco to our played an enormous part thus far, including in the local authorities. delivery of test and trace. They have worked exceptionally 443 Local Contact Tracing14 OCTOBER 2020 Local Contact Tracing 444

[Jo Churchill] the response in Leicester, where local teams responded phenomenally to the challenge presented to them earlier hard to prepare and support their communities throughout in the summer, with the national oversight identifying the coronavirus outbreak, protecting the most vulnerable that there was a problem and then the local response. and saving lives. We know we need people on the ground locally who can I take this opportunity to say thank you to all the reach the most vulnerable and those who are disengaged public health teams and local authority staff for their from local services. hard work thus far, and I know I speak for everyone in The local health protection teams form the first tier this place, irrespective of where we sit, and beyond when of the NHS Test and Trace contact tracing service, I say how grateful we are that they have been there. consisting of public health specialists. NHS Test and Local partnerships have been at the heart of both Trace and Public Health England work with local covid and of the NHS Test and Trace response. As this government colleagues, including the Association of House knows, Test and Trace was stood up at incredible Directors of Public Health, the Society of Local Authority speed and has developed at scale and pace. As would be Chief Executives and Senior Managers, the Local expected, the Government responded at pace. Government Association and UK chief environmental health officers, on part of this programme. It is, therefore, The hon. Lady mentioned Serco on more than one simply untrue that contact tracing does not include occasion but, as she well knows, having reacted to the those experts front and centre, helping us deliver. changing situation at pace, Serco and Sitel went through a full tendering process to became one of the suppliers Mr Betts: I very much welcome the plan in the to the Government, and they can be drawn down at Liverpool city region, where the local authorities have short notice. They gained their place through fair and been given £8 per head to take over responsibility for open competition via an OJEU procurement process. tracking and tracing. It recognises the most serious Value for money and capability are part of those assessment problem in the country, the Liverpool city region, and criteria. the funds have been given to local authorities. If that is On 8 May, the Prime Minister announced that we the case, why does the scheme not extend to at least were bringing Test and Trace into a single service, tier 2 regions, such as Sheffield, so we can avoid becoming listening to those people who were asking us to respond, a tier 3 region in due course? and it was formally launched on 28 May.Wehave brought together a huge range of people and organisations into Jo Churchill: The hon. Gentleman is correct to say we the system, from the Department of Health and Social have provided £8 per head, giving Liverpool some Care, the NHS, Public Health England, local authorities, £14 million to assist with its local public health attack academia, epidemiologists, the private and even the on the virus and to help drive down the rates. Tier 3 not-for-profit sector. I think my hon. Friend the Member local authorities get that help. The Government will for Milton Keynes North (Ben Everitt) will be speaking. work with local areas to accelerate local roll-out and to Milton Keynes is just the most glowing example of allow conversations to be ongoing, with additional money using people’s skills. to protect vital services. Further details, I am sure, will come from the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Andy Slaughter: The Minister mentioned the private Local Government in time. sector. Three weeks ago in named day questions, I asked As I said, it is untrue that public health experts are her Department for details of the private consultants not there front and centre. There are about 1,000 tier 1 working at the Joint Biosecurity Centre, but she still has contact tracers working within the core contact tracing not answered, even though some of the information has system in health protection teams and field services been published in the press since. What have they got to across the country. More local recruitment is under way. hide about the employment of consultants and their We have more than doubled the size of local health cost? Will she now answer those questions and publish protection teams since the pandemic began. The next that information? layer of the test and trace contact tracing services is NHS clinicians, who signed up to contact people who Jo Churchill: As the hon. Gentleman can imagine, in have tested positive and talk them through the process the current circumstances the Department has a vast to find out where individuals have been and who they amount of correspondence. I will chase his inquiry may have been in contact with. Those clinicians do the personally when I return. most phenomenal job every day, stepping forward with As I said at the start, it is not a case of either/or, as their wealth of expertise to assist. the Opposition motion makes out. The pandemic requires Today’s motion refers to local contact tracing and us all to work towards that common goal of beating the that has, in fact, been getting rolled out to local authorities virus.Contact tracing is an excellent example of partnership across the country since August of this year. Has it in action. We have Public Health England’s epidemiology always gone seamlessly? Has it always been perfect? I expertise to ensure that the operationalisation of the am always the first at this Dispatch Box to say that tracing model is built on a strong scientific base. Through nothing ever does, much as we may want it to. Nothing NHS Test and Trace and its partner organisations, we ever does. We put the best efforts into making sure that can do it at scale. The national framework enables us to individuals at a local level are supported in this difficult reach tens of thousands of people a day. It would not work every day. have been possible to do that on the existing infrastructure without placing an unbearable burden and strain on the Dawn Butler (Brent Central) (Lab): The Minister is system. To support this, we have local health teams who right to say that we want everything to go well, but what know their local areas and can provide expert management we can do is learn the lessons. In my constituency in locally. Probably one of the finest examples of that was Brent, people were trying to get access to the NHS 445 Local Contact Tracing14 OCTOBER 2020 Local Contact Tracing 446 database—the Contract Tracing and Advisory Service—and Alexander Stafford: Clearly,this spine is very important, they were met with just “No, no, no” so many times. and one of the key elements is the app, which 17 million Will the Minister tell the House the average wait time people have downloaded—that is a great success. Does for local authorities to get access to CTAS? That is vital my hon. Friend agree that that is in stark contrast to if they are going to do local test and trace. other systems, such as the StopCovid app in France, which has been an abject failure, as only 2.6 million Jo Churchill: I thank the hon. Lady for her question, people downloaded it? When we compare that with the and I will be coming on to access. As she rightly points figure of 17 million people in the UK, we see that we are out, it is hugely important that local and national getting it right compared with other countries. systems are in lockstep so we get a better picture of the virus and how it is affecting our local communities. Jo Churchill: I thank my hon. Friend for making that point and highlighting that 17 million individuals have Alexander Stafford (Rother Valley) (Con): Will my downloaded the app. I am sure many in this House are Hon. Friend give way? using it frequently, because that helps us to test and trace. He also raises the point about talking to other Jo Churchill: I will push on a little and then I will give countries, which we do in order to learn. When we have way to my hon. Friend. spoken to other countries, they, too, have reinforced the Today’s motion talks about local contact tracing, fact that this is not only about local systems and it is which has been rolled out since August and is something important to have an overarching national system and that NHS Test and Trace is actively driving forward in local systems as well. its commitment to local systems. Since August, NHS As the Secretary of State said to the House yesterday: Test and Trace has provided local authorities with dedicated “Local action has proved to be one of our most important teams of contact tracers working alongside local public lines of defence.”—[Official Report, 13 October 2020; Vol. 682, health officials to assist and give a more specialist c. 198.] service. Local public health officials can access and use Beating this virus is about a series of building blocks. the data shared by the NHS on a daily basis. Together Every day, week in, week out, we are in constant dialogue we can increase the number of people contacted. We with local areas to make sure there is support on the have more than 95 lower-tier local authorities across the ground for extra measures and that the local perspective country that have gone live with local tracing partnerships. is combined with the wealth of data we now have, and There are more going live in the coming weeks, and any share, on the spread of this virus. The next evolution of local authority that wants to be involved can be. The this, thanks in large part to the wealth of data and the national programme is doing an unbelievable job of insight of Test and Trace, which we did not have at the helping people who might unknowingly be putting their early stage of the pandemic, is introducing the three covid loved ones at risk, but so is the local programme. alert levels that the House voted to approve last night, In England we have reached more than 650,000 people demonstrating our commitment to respond on a much who have tested positive and their contacts and advised more targeted and local basis, working closely with them to self-isolate. Every person who tests positive is community leaders and communities. contacted by NHS Test and Trace, which consistently Over the past few months, we have built a massive reaches more than 80% of contacts when details are national infrastructure for testing. That work has involved given. Because everybody, whether national or local, is local authorities identifying and setting up testing sites locked on to the same system—this is vital—we can see that work for their local areas, and deploying mobile how the virus is spreading. It gives us important knowledge. testing where it is most needed. I wish to place on record All the data that we publish on NHS Test and Trace my thanks to the Army, as we know that its deployment include data on local performance. At this point, I and mobility around the country has given us another recommend to everyone the coronavirus dashboard, which tool in the toolbox in order to be able to fight. It is with has been improved and updated, and gone live only this great thanks to the local authorities that we now have morning. It gives fantastic information about what is more than 500 testing sites; many more are local walk-in happening locally. As local testing partnerships are sites to make it easier and quicker for people living in rolled out, we expect to see performance improving urban areas. The median distance travelled in person to further. a test is just 3.7 miles. Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op): As my Mr Betts rose— hon. Friend the Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) set out, the system is not working. The statistics speak Matt Rodda rose— for themselves and, while the system in Wales is delivering, it is not in England. Will the Minister say why the private Jo Churchill: I have already given way to the hon. companies do not just hand the test and trace system Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts), so I will over to local directors of public health? Are there any give way to the hon. Member for Reading East financial penalties or anything in their contracts that (Matt Rodda). preclude them from doing so? Matt Rodda: I am grateful to the Minister for giving Jo Churchill: We are better together. It is as simple as way on that point, as I wish to ask her to investigate that. It is about a national programme. Let us imagine something for me. In Reading, we have been waiting for that the national programme is the spine and the local some time for a new testing centre, and this is in a authorities are the ribs that wrap around us. The university town that is currently in the bottom tier but combination of the rigid spine and those solid ribs which could rapidly progress to the second tier or even protects the organs, and this is what test and trace will the top tier if the spread is not arrested now. Students do. We need both elements of the system. have been told that they will have to travel only 1.5 miles 447 Local Contact Tracing14 OCTOBER 2020 Local Contact Tracing 448

[Matt Rodda] Mr Betts: Will the Minister give way? to the nearest testing centre, but in fact the nearest Jo Churchill: No. I am just coming to a conclusion, testing centre is in Newbury, which is more than 15 miles and I did give way to the hon. Gentleman. away. I know of residents of Reading who have had to In a few short months, we have made huge strides go as far away as the Welsh valleys and Tewkesbury to forward to tackle this deadly virus. It has been a collective get a test. Will she now investigate the need for speeding commitment. It is not about us or them; it is about all of up the provision of a testing centre at the University of us—one team, working day and night together in the Reading? different areas, and using expertise to bring the virus under control. We will keep working side by side with Jo Churchill: I believe that the Minister for Universities our important local partners in the months ahead. answered an urgent question in this House last week, and I am sure that if the hon. Gentleman refers the Some quotes from directors of public health have challenges he has on the university to her, she would be been bandied about, and the hon. Member for Leeds more than happy to work with him. I just refer him back West said they supported the motion. I would merely to the fact that we are working with all local authorities. like to say that the Association of Directors of Public Health While talking about testing, I would like to take the “supports the need to implement, at scale, a contact tracing opportunity to remind the House about the scale of programme. No single organisation or agency, whether national testing. It was 2,000 people a day when the pandemic or local, can design and oversee this operation alone. The success began in March, and when NHS Test and Trace began of contact tracing will depend on a truly integrated approach our capacity was over 128,000. The capacity is now over between national and local government and a range of other 340,000. We have processed over 25 million tests, and partners across the UK.” one in eight people in England have been tested for the That is from its press release. On that note—I think it virus. I am really keen that we understand the size of very firmly puts the Opposition motion where it needs this challenge. Wehave built the largest diagnostic network to be today, which is to be defeated—I commend our in British history, including five major labs, 96 NHS amendment to the House. labs and Public Health England labs, and we are expanding further. We have pilots going with some of our greatest 4.59 pm universities. We are working with hospitals, with the addition of new Lighthouse laboratories in Charnwood, Kenny MacAskill (East Lothian) (SNP): It is often Newcastle and Bracknell, as well as new partnerships said that the principal duty of Government is to keep only last week with Birmingham University and Health their citizens safe and secure. That applies not just to Service Laboratories in London, so we are expanding. law and order. If my recollection of policing history is Right at the start of NHS Test and Trace, we worked correct, the City of Glasgow , formed before with all 152 local authorities to help them develop their Sir Robert Peel’s , had public health local outbreak plans. We have ensured access to data, duties, not just the duty to address violence and crime. and when it was highlighted that there was a need for Then, of course, the scourge was cholera, but it remains better data flow, we worked on it to provide them with true today not just in the ethos of : additional support to respond to outbreaks, such as Governments and agencies have a public health duty with enhanced testing. We have also published the and that is at the core of keeping citizens safe and covid-19 contain framework—the blueprint for how secure. Test and Trace is working in partnership with local It follows on from that that actions and ideology are authorities, the NHS, local businesses, community partners used and need to be scrutinised and investigated. It is and the wider public so that we can target outbreaks. the duty of the Administration to deliver, but it is the We introduced new regulations to give local authorities duty of the Opposition to challenge. At the heart of this additional powers when they ask for them to stop the debate and, indeed, at the root of the subject under transmission of the virus, giving them the ability to discussion lies the charge that the Government have restrict local public gatherings and events, and the supplanted good governance with ideology and that the power to close local business premises and outdoor choices they have made were based not on best practice, spaces if it is deemed necessary. This includes more let alone best value, but on ideology; on how they fitted support for local test and trace, more funding for local in with their free market ideology and, worse still, how enforcement and the offer of the armed services in areas they benefited their friends and cronies; it was not just of very high alert. about the underlying ethos regarding centralised or local systems. Steve Brine: I feel sorry for the Minister and her Why are we having this debate? It is because there has colleagues now that constructive opposition has ended, been, and is, clear policy failure. Let us remember that, but let me ask her about the local tracing partnerships at the outset of the pandemic, our never knowingly she mentioned. She will remember the thousands of modest Prime Minister boasted that we would have a volunteers who signed up to help during this pandemic. world-beating test and trace system. Why? Because, Have Ministers given any thought to using that army of then and now, test, trace and isolate is key to addressing volunteers for the local tracing partnerships? this pandemic, as it is to addressing other such viruses. Previous pandemics show that that was fundamental. Jo Churchill: I thank my hon. Friend. Those local Indeed, all the evidence from abroad, where many, if volunteers were in some cases employed in other jobs not most, countries are doing significantly better, shows and have returned to those jobs, but where they have that it remains fundamental. But what was bragged indicated they are available, obviously they have about by the Prime Minister is far from the reality and been used. experience of those on the ground. 449 Local Contact Tracing14 OCTOBER 2020 Local Contact Tracing 450

Monday’s minutes from SAGE, released shortly after Let us look at what has happened. The Government the chuntering broadcast by the Prime Minister, when, are charged with failing to deliver an accurate or speedy once again, soundbite rose over substance, were not just response, as the 61% showing testifies to. The reality is critical, but fundamentally caustic. They disclosed that that they did not deliver a speedy response to the the scientists—indeed the scientists behind the science pandemic, but they delivered an entirely inadequate that the Prime Minister claims to be following—had testing system based on a procurement system that has neither faith in the strategy nor faith in the direction used speed as an excuse, if not cover,for making ideological being taken. The current situation on test and trace, let choices. If truth be told, they have failed to secure their us remember, is critical and is, in the Prime Minister’s citizens, but they have certainly satisfied their cronies. words, meant to be world beating. Importantly, some Transparency and clarity there must be, but probity and insurers may argue with those seeking to claim some competence are also required. recompense that this is an act of God that negates any Let us consider the facts, because that is where I pay-out for what they have been paying in over months believe the Government are found wanting. Pillar 1 in and years, but this strategy most certainly is man-made England, as in Scotland and Wales, has delivered. Why and the fingerprints of the Prime Minister are all over is that? Because it is built on Public Health England, it. It is a deliberate policy choice that has been made and on local public health agencies in Scotland and and it is a consequential failure that is rooted in those Wales—the same people who have dealt with viruses in ideological choices, for there were, and are, other options, the past; those who have dealt with meningitis outbreaks as the hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) and norovirus, and indeed, in past generations, the and others have commented on. It was not forced on the cholera that I mentioned. In public health emergencies, Government by events; it was chosen by them through they come to the fore; they are trained for them, they dogma, as they have disclosed in other policy positions prepare for them and they are experienced in them. throughout their tenure. They could, had they wished, have gone with the experienced practitioners who were Of course, that does not preclude the private sector tried and tested and who had done this before, but they or deny the need for recruitment of additional staff. rejected them and accordingly that failure is their policy— That is self-evident when we face a crisis on this scale. their political choice, on the basis, sadly, of their political But all that should be done under the guidance and the prejudice. direction of those skilled and experienced staff who are Let us look at the evidence. In Scotland and Wales, trained in public health, who know what they are doing test and trace is built on the public health experts who and—this is core to the motion—know the area that are in place. They are the local officials on the ground who they are serving. have been tested over previous pandemics such as flu. However, ideology has overridden that. The most We have, as others have mentioned, a 90% success rate. damning evidence is from the independent adviser to In England, through Serco, it is 61%. That gap threatens the independent SAGE, Sir David King, who said that lives. It cannot be explained away by the greater population the Government claim to be following the science but of England, or indeed by the greater urbanisation or have ignored the scientists.Instead of those tried-and-tested density of England. Why is that? If we look at pillar 1 in experts and others—new and old, experienced and not, England, which is being delivered by Public Health but working with and to them—we got an army of England and by public health officials, there is a success consultants. Not medical consultants, who would have rate of 95%, which exceeds that of Scotland and Wales. been welcomed by the population at large, but management Therefore, it is not England per se, but the system that consultants and consultancy firms who are neither qualified England is using for pillar 2 that is failing. That is clear, nor—again, this is fundamental to the motion—local, as the public health-based systems in Scotland, Wales such as Sodexo, Serco and Deloitte. and England are delivering, and it is the privatised Serco-based model in England that is failing. We got 50 Deloitte testing centres, which then That brings me to the next subject: speed. Speed is an subcontracted to Serco, Sodexo, Mitie, G4S, Boots, issue in this debate. It is an aspect of health actions and Uncle Tom Cobleigh and all to carry out their mandate of the delivery of policy choices. Speed is essential for and, indeed, to staff and resource them. What should infection control. It is also vital to changes in normal have been a local response delivered by public health Government procurement rules, yet it seems that what officials has become a centralised service, divvied up should be a mitigatory factor for changes to the usual and shared out among corporate pals—given to their competitive tendering rules is, in fact, a condemnatory pals; their family and friends, without going into other matter for Government policy choices based on ideology. aspects; their corporate friends, and indeed big business donors. Who cares what their experience is in public Speed is vital in health actions with regard to this health as long as they are on side politically? Why let virus. That is clear in all pandemic control, but especially public health get in the way of old pals’ needs? for covid. Why is that? Because people can be infectious two or three days before they are aware of the symptoms. It gets worse. On 9 October, Sky News mentioned Hence test, trace and isolate is fundamental, or, as we 1,114 consultants from Deloitte employed on test and are sadly seeing, the R number simply increases trace, as well as 144 from McKinsey, BCG, PwC, KPMG exponentially.Speed is also acknowledged in competitive and EY.Who cares what the acronym is, what knowledge tendering rules. Latitude is understandably given where they have, or where they are based? To be in charge of urgency is required in cases of emergency, such as we public health is a beanfeast and a bonanza for consultants face at the moment, but value for money is still to be when it should be about caring and providing for our sought even if the best-value rules are overridden. However, citizens.It is management over medical and it is centralised, as with the need for safety and security in policy that I not localised. If it was not so tragic, it would be farcical, have detailed, there also needs to be probity in office if not comical. If only the percentage of tests delivered and in the actions of Government. met the increasing percentage of consultants being hired. 451 Local Contact Tracing14 OCTOBER 2020 Local Contact Tracing 452

[Kenny MacAskill] the Government’s approach to testing and tracing, if they describe testing 69% as a complete failure, what Neither public health nor public procurement is being does that say about the Welsh Labour Government’s satisfied with the current policy. Daniel Bruce of programme? To be brutally honest, I am struggling to Transparency International warned, regarding the understand what exactly Labour Members are trying to circumventing of competitive tendering proposals, about say today, beyond of course, “We could have done it a blank cheque, but it is not a blank cheque for public differently. It would all have been different and fantastic, health officials—it is a blank cheque for consultancy and nothing would have gone wrong.” That is basically profits. It is not a de minimis amount, either, for we their position on everything to do with the coronavirus. know that the magic money tree has been found and is Let us talk about some of Labour Members’ common being well and truly plundered. Although much is welcome, criticisms. They say we should not have the private this most certainly is not. There have been 117 contracts sector involved, and that there is insufficient capacity. worth £1.7 billion, 115 of those under fast-track rules At the same time as criticising the Government for not dispensing with normal competitive tendering requirements, having enough testing capacity, they are telling them and two contracts of £200 million administered by that they should immediately and drastically cut out a Whitehall Departments. We even have contracts going chunk of that capacity because it does not suit their to firms with Tory MPs as paid consultants. I am implying ideology. This is all based on their blinkered mentality nothing, but when less scrutiny is required, more care that if the private sector does something it will automatically should certainly be taken by those in office. This plethora be bad and if the public sector does something it will of deals to family, friends and cronies does a political automatically be good. disservice and is as unhealthy as the virus in terms of That brings me to the question of whether doing the public good. While best value has been dispensed with, everything locally would have been the right approach value for money is still required, not just by Daniel at the outset of the programme. I simply do not accept Bruce but by civil service rules. Fundamentally, as ever, that asking all 152 directors of public health to go off probity and rectitude should be followed in government. and set up their own approach at the outset would have This debate is not simply about localised versus been in any way feasible. Were they all supposed to centralised. At its heart, it is a question of strategy by come up with their own laboratories, their own contracts the Government, who have chosen, in addressing this and their own apps? That just is not a credible solution pandemic, that it should be seen, and rather tragically in the short term. It was common sense to begin with a has been seen, as increasing the percentage of consultants central programme, although even at the outset, when it rather than the percentage of public health officials. was clear that something centrally driven was needed to Instead of seeing increasing largesse in public contracts kickstart the process, the Government recognised that going to consultants, not public health officials, we local systems had a role to play. Many months before should have been seeing it going to those on the frontline Labour was calling for it, £300 million was provided to who are dealing with need. Truncated procedures are help local authorities to develop their own test and trace needed, and they are acceptable, but the fact is that programmes and, importantly, we have now 93 local taxpayers are paying the price and citizens are bearing authority test and trace regimes up and running. the cost, while, at the same time, corporate profits are being increased and public health officials undermined. So what is it that Labour Members are saying? Is it It has become corporatism, with centralised cronyism, that we should immediately hand over everything that is when it should be public health, localised and competent. being run nationally to local authorities? It is, frankly, a national scandal. Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): No. 5.13 pm Dr Kieran Mullan (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con): I Dr Mullan: Well, it is. welcome the opportunity to take part in this important Many of us in this place who have had dealings with debate. local authorities—as well as lots of our constituents Effective contact tracing is going to help us to tackle and probably millions of people across the country—would this virus, and all of us here want the best possible agree that getting everything done by the local authority version of that tool in the toolbox. The question is how is by no means a guarantee of success. Just this morning, best we do that. Despite what the Opposition might in news that I am sure was greeted with groans in the have people believe, there are no easy answers to this Labour Whips Office, it was revealed that Birmingham problem. It is easy to stand up in this place or go on TV City Council’s local programme dropped off 25 used and say,“Fix it”, but anyone with any real-world experience swab kits to homes in Selly Oak. Does that mean that of organising any kind of project or undertaking that is local authorities are incapable of delivering? No, of even a fraction of the scale and size of this one understands course not. We have problems in the private sector, and the incredible challenges that are inevitably faced. Over that should not bar them from involvement, and we recent months, the Government have built a huge testing have problems in the public sector too. regime capable of processing 340,000 tests a day that Local authority solutions are not a magic bullet. The has tested over 7 million people in a matter of months. quality of leadership, management and organisation At the start of this epidemic, the yardstick for all this varies enormously among local authorities. We all know was Germany. Now that we are testing more people this, and the Opposition know it. At the election, so than Germany, France, Italy and Denmark, and many many bricks in their red wall fell because residents were others, that yardstick has quietly disappeared. fed up not just with Labour at national level but with Yes, there are challenges. Supply and demand are inept, Labour-led local authorities. After decades in not uniform across the country and supply needs to be power, they were taking people for granted, with leaders increased, but, whatever Labour Members think about and councillors who were not even up to the job of 453 Local Contact Tracing14 OCTOBER 2020 Local Contact Tracing 454 taking away the bins on time, let alone organising a test One of my own staff, a key worker helping me provide and trace programme. The national programme inevitably support to the more than 1,400 constituents currently has challenges, but do Labour Members really think requiring my assistance, had to self-isolate for two that each and every one of the local authorities will weeks because one of her relatives at home was taken to deliver on this flawlessly? hospital by ambulance with a high temperature and Local leaders are political. Sadly, time and again we struggling to breathe. No test was offered, either to my see Members on the Opposition Benches putting politics colleague or her relative; instead, they were instructed first. In the past 24 hours alone, they have said that they to self-isolate for two weeks. It is just not good enough. support local lockdowns but then did not vote for local Without effective and timely testing, contact tracing lockdowns; that national lockdowns were a disaster, but is rendered useless, and this is part of a pattern. Local now they want a national lockdown—and they cannot councils have been failed at every turn; there is diminished even make up their minds whether they want a two-week national testing capacity; there has been no blanket or a three-week lockdown. And they want the country additional support to set up local track and trace systems; to believe that if they had been in charge, all this would and only limited financial support has been offered, have been going smoothly. That is not accurate. When it with all this coming after a decade of austerity that has came to getting children back to school, the national stripped much-valued public services to the bone. How Labour party was kowtowing to national union leaders can they effectively respond without adequate Government and doing what they said, and we all know that the local support? Labour parties are just as likely to be influenced by the Whenever the likes of me ask basic questions that are unions. I absolutely recognise that there is work that of serious concern to our anxious constituents, the needs to be done, but I am afraid the idea that if we just Health and Social Care Secretary decides to gaslight or flick a switch and give it all to local authorities everything even wag his finger around, accusing us of using divisive will be fine is complete and utter nonsense. language. Given that he does not seem to know the answer, perhaps the Minister can advise us and the 5.18 pm good people of Slough as to when our test centre will go back to being a drive-through and walk-in facility, so Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab): For months, that locals can actually access a test when they desperately the Labour party has been calling on the Prime Minister need one. to get a grip of the crisis, yet, characteristically for his Government, all we have seen is dither and delay, U-turn The British people want to do the right thing—get after U-turn and a failure to provide effective testing tested and follow Government advice—but they are and tracing of this deadly virus. Back in February, the being badly let down by a Government whose dithering World Health Organisation advised nations that a key and incompetence has resulted in our Slough now sadly component of their pandemic response should be “test, having seen the largest unemployment increase in the test, test”, but despite spending over £12 billion of whole of the UK since the start of this outbreak. It is taxpayers’money,this Government have failed spectacularly incredible that while some nations prioritised their public to deliver even a functioning test and trace system, health, and others their economy, this Conservative never mind the Prime Minister’s self-avowed “world- Government have managed ineptly to sacrifice both. beating” programme. Instead, they have blamed the public for wanting too many tests, misplaced records for 5.23 pm 16,000 positive cases, and launched their app months late. While Ministers continue to bore us ad nauseum with Ben Everitt (Milton Keynes North) (Con): It feels like their soundbites about world-beating capacity,they ignore a world ago when I was taken aside by my hon. Friend the reality that the system is broken and, in the words of on the Front Bench, the Member for Bury St Edmunds SAGE, is having only “a marginal impact”on controlling (Jo Churchill), and told that Milton Keynes would be the virus. They continue to hand over billions of pounds hosting a coronavirus quarantine centre for the repatriation of taxpayers’ money to private companies—many with of British nationals and their dependants returning Conservative party connections—trying to paper over from Wuhan. Shortly after that, we heard the sad news the cracks without addressing the failures of a privatised that one of the first deaths of a hospital patient who and centralised model. Just last week, only 68% of had tested positive for coronavirus had occurred in contacts of those who had tested positive for coronavirus Milton Keynes University Hospital. I think about that were reached by the Government’s central system. That moment a lot. is the worst weekly figure since test and trace began, Since then, the world has changed. We learn new while cases are among the highest. In comparison, things about this virus and our ability to deal with it 97.1% were reached by local protection teams, so the every day.We have had challenges, and we have overcome picture is pretty clear. them. There will be more challenges ahead. We know that In my constituency of Slough, because of Government this virus thrives in cold, damp environments with low failures the council was compelled to set up its own levels of ultraviolet radiation from sunlight and that tracing system to protect our local community. This transmission overwhelmingly occurs indoors. Cold, damp came after the Department of Health and Social Care environments where we are overwhelmingly indoors are significantly curtailed the working of our local testing known in the UK as autumn and winter. These seasons centre, causing absolute chaos. I have been contacted by are against us, and positive cases are rising. constituents who were directed to drive hundreds of That is why we all have a part to play. We must miles, or even to catch a ferry to the Isle of Wight, just control the virus, protect lives and protect livelihoods to get a test; by parents unable to send their children to until a vaccine can keep us safe. A big part of that is the school after waiting an entire week for test results; and app. The good people of Milton Keynes are famously by key workers simply unable to book test appointments. tech savvy, and I am sure that many have already 455 Local Contact Tracing14 OCTOBER 2020 Local Contact Tracing 456

[Ben Everitt] thank the Prime Minister for acknowledging and apologising for the failures of the test and trace system downloaded the NHS covid-19 app, but I must strongly the other day. encourage everyone to do so. It is a huge part of dealing Here are some general facts. The minutes from SAGE with the virus and a huge part of test and trace. on 1 May reported that any delay beyond 48 to 72 hours It is not just about downloading the app; it is about before the isolation of contacts results in a “significant what we do with our lives. It is about hands, face, space; impact” on the R rate—so every time this goes wrong, the rule of six; understanding the rules and restrictions there is a significant impact on that rate. SAGE also in our local tier; and, crucially—I say this to Opposition reported that “at least 80%” of contacts of confirmed Members—it is about working together to defeat the cases would need to isolate to ensure an effective track virus. With winter just around the corner, now is not the and trace system. time to be promoting alternative test and trace systems Therefore, every time it is said that Serco has reached or undermining public confidence in the work of our 60%, that means that it is failing because it is not an NHS and public health professionals. We continue to effective test-and-trace system. It also states that 65% of expand our support for the local approach with a people who test positive have no symptoms. It is wrong, national framework. The experience of other countries therefore, for the Secretary of State to say that people shows that we need a national approach, because otherwise, who have no symptoms are not entitled to go for tests. the local test and trace operations simply will not join up. Randox won a £133 million contract—unopposed—for My hon. Friend the Minister referenced the Lighthouse a test-and-trace system. It disposed of 12,401 used lab in Milton Keynes. I am immensely proud to represent swabs in a single day, voided more than 35,000 used test Milton Keynes North in this place. We have robots, kits and disposed of 750,000 unused coronavirus kits e-scooters and driverless cars. We have companies that owing to safety standards. Even though there is an are mining for water on the moon, and we have the most ongoing investigation it is important that we know fantastically productive and brilliant people in this country. where taxpayers’ money is being wasted. I would like Of course Milton Keynes was selected to host one of the Minister to confirm whether Randox is charging the the first Lighthouse labs. We now have robot freezers taxpayer for voided tests. How many tests has Randox capable of processing up to 150,000 test results a day. voided to date, and how much is the taxpayer being Milton Keynes makes a fantastic contribution to our charged for each voided test? national effort. Professor Jon Deeks says that New Zealand tests The stunning achievement of getting that lab up and people at least three times, whereas we in the United running has been down to amazing co-operation between Kingdom have a leaky testing problem in contact tracing the public sector, the private sector and the military—all and run the risk of missing the disease. That is the working together, as we should in a national emergency. problem. There has been a backlog of 185,000 Covid-19 The Labour party wants to remove the private sector tests, and some tests have been sent to Germany, and from test and trace. We have been able to ramp up some to Italy. How many of our tests are processed in testing to more than 134,000 a day only with the support, the UK, and how many are processed in Europe, which, co-operation and innovation of the private sector. Some incidentally, said we are not a priority? I wonder why. 22,000 of the 30,000 ventilators were produced by the Serco is one of the top outsourcing companies. Serco private sector. The vaccine trials are being run by the and Sitel are going to be paid £1 billion for their work. I private sector, including the potential game changer in would say that the money should be given to local . Dexamethasone, the first proven authorities. therapy for this horrible disease, is being produced at scale by the private sector. Thirty-two billion items of The BMJ released details of a leaked Government PPE have been provided by the private sector, keeping briefing stating that there will be 10 million Covid tests our health and social care professionals safe as they do a day as part of a £100 billion expansion. That £100 billion their heroic work. Now is not the time to play ideological should be given to local authorities. games with our response to a public health emergency. Now is the time to work together. Now is the time to use every lever possible to save lives, protect the NHS and 5.32 pm beat this virus. Andrew Bowie (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (Con): I know that in some early listings I appear as the Several hon. Members rose— hon. Member for Ipswich. I am not the hon. Member for Ipswich—I never could be!—but if he was here I am Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Order. sure he would agree that the Opposition’s brass neck I am afraid I have to reduce the time limit to three takes some beating, in a week when we have seen minutes—[HON.MEMBERS: “Three minutes?”] Yes, because craven, callous political opportunism of the worst kind the debate ends at 7 o’clock. Members should not be from Labour Members. First, they were anti-10 pm surprised because they can see the call list. I call Dawn closures; then, they were for 10 pm closures. First, they Butler. were against the tiered system; then, they were for the tiered system. First, they were against a circuit-breaker approach; then, they were for a circuit-breaker approach. 5.28 pm I hope that Labour Front Benchers have cleared their position with the Leader of the Opposition, because for Dawn Butler (Brent Central) (Lab): I will try to keep all we know he will be on TV in half an hour announcing my contribution to factual information, unlike some of a different position from the one they have taken here the speeches that we have heard today. I would like to today. 457 Local Contact Tracing14 OCTOBER 2020 Local Contact Tracing 458

The Opposition’s tone in opening the debate was themselves—they are already beyond stretched. One quite depressing. We could have spent these few hours outsourcing company subcontracted 28 different companies talking about how we work together to address the issues with no knowledge or experience to succeed, and that with the test-and-trace system, but, no, all we heard was has proven to be a failure. typical Labour public good, private bad. Labour might Often, the solution is simple. We currently have too have a new leader, but it is the same old Labour. much of a disconnect between local and national teams. As my hon. Friend the Minister said, the Government’s By the time the subcontractors contact local teams to aim and objective is to save lives. We accept that there help, days have passed with covid-19 on legs, spreading. are issues with the test-and-trace system, which is why Effective information-sharing leads to faster contact we are working with all stakeholders—public, private, tracing. Redeploying the national pool of contact tracers not for profit and local and national organisations—to directly with local teams would help that. That is how get this right. It is not either/or. It is not public or the country can get a test and trace system working, private. It is not local or national. We are working to which is what we all want. create a system that uses the best of all worlds. Local authorities and their public health teams should We are providing £300 million to help local authorities be given the lead on test and trace and the resource to to set up local test-and-trace services. We are extending do so. Adequate funding is necessary so that they can the partnership between NHS Test and Trace and local expand their teams, but it takes time to recruit, and that authorities to reach more people who test positive— is why I urge that the 25,000 tracers employed by the [Interruption.] They say we are not, but we are: it is a private sector are redeployed somehow into local teams. fact. We are bringing together the efforts and data of local and national services so that we can spot local Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I am sorry,Marie, flare-ups and take measures to control them more easily. but we have to leave it there. I call Margaret Greenwood. NHS Test and Trace—the Opposition would not say this—is delivering results. We are testing more than any other comparable European country today, and that is 5.38 pm something of which we should be very proud. Test and Margaret Greenwood (Wirral West) (Lab): A trace plays a crucial role in our fight against coronavirus. comprehensive and effective track and trace system is It is not a question of national or local, but rather both essential if we are to tackle this virus.Sadly,the Government working together to control and suppress the spread of have failed to deliver on that. Wirral headteachers have this virus, and I really hope that the Labour party drops written to me about the damaging delays in receiving its recent approach and moves back to where it was in test results, which have meant teachers in local schools March, working constructively with the Government so being absent as they wait to find out whether they have that we can defeat this virus and save lives. covid-19. One NHS doctor wrote to describe how she, her husband, who is also a doctor, and other family 5.35 pm members had multiple phone calls from different people giving them different advice on quarantine periods. Ms Marie Rimmer (St Helens South and Whiston) Another individual told me how he received a letter (Lab): The world-beating test and trace system set up to dated 3 October that told him he had to self-isolate until control covid-19 has been an expensive failure. Covid-19 8 September. is having a devastating effect on lives and livelihoods at the speed we saw back in April, especially in less affluent In the latest weekly statistics, more than 51,000 people areas and communities, such as Liverpool city region. tested positive for covid-19 nationally, but only two The Government have difficulty admitting that, when thirds of those were transferred to the contact tracing the system has cost £12 billion, but recognise it and act system. Council officers in Wirral tell me that the national they must, as lives are at stake. system is only reaching 63% of close contacts in Wirral, For test and trace to work, the Government must learn meaning that 37% are not being provided with timely lessons from the experiences and outcomes to date. advice. I have written to the Secretary of State three Local knowledge is the key to success. When a business times since May calling on the Government to share the is looking to expand into new markets, local expertise is vital data that Wirral Council public health department hired to help. This situation is no different. One centralised, needs to aid it in its test and trace measures and outsourced system was destined to fail. For months, outbreak plans. many people have called on the Government to support Instead of putting contact tracing in the hands of local authorities and public health and expand their councils or local public health teams who know their role. Their teams have proven to be successful at controlling communities well, the Government have decided to the outbreaks, once they have got over the business of award huge contracts with eye-watering sums of money testing and the lack of PPE in care homes in those to private companies to run test and trace.The Government areas. have allowed their obsession with privatising the national National Test and Trace teams contact positive cases health service to overshadow the need to provide a by phoning and leaving a message, but many do not get comprehensive and effective system. The public are back to them. Sometimes, they pass those failures on to quite rightly angry about that. local government, and local government goes out, knocks Serco was initially given a contract for £108 million on doors and gets responses, and that has been proven. for 14 weeks with the option to extend for a longer These teams have invaluable knowledge of the people period, with a value of up to £410 million in total. and places where they are working year in, year out. However, we need to know how Serco’s performance is Higher contact tracing rates lead to reduced covid-19 being measured and whether it has been subject to spread. It is the only way to get it under control. Local deductions for failing to meet standards of delivery. authorities do not have the capacity to do it all That transparency is denied to us under this Government. 459 Local Contact Tracing14 OCTOBER 2020 Local Contact Tracing 460

[Margaret Greenwood] against the private sector being involved, but it is about where the expertise is. The private sector’s expertise is Along with the additional restrictions that have come clearly in developing a vaccine. It should be allowed to in for the Liverpool city region this week, the Government do that, but the expertise for contact tracking and have at last confirmed £14 million for the region for a tracing is with directors of public health. That is what range of activities, which include enhanced contact they do as a profession—control infectious diseases— tracing, but we need clarity from the Government. Will and very simply, if we are going to be effective, it is the Minister clarify how that money will be spent, and much more effective for a director of public health to will she commit to an expansion of our local authority recruit a local person to go and knock on someone’s public health teams? door than for that person to get a phone call from It is time that the Government took a sober look at someone else 200 miles away who does not understand the landscape in which we find ourselves. They must the local area. once and for all hand over control of contact tracing to councils and local public health teams across the country, 5.43 pm and that must be backed up with the necessary resources, so that we can defeat the virus and save lives. Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): My constituents’ experience of the test, trace and isolate system run by 5.41 pm the UK Government is that it has been a complete and utter fiasco at every single stage. Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab): Arguing about what restrictions should be in place is no use—it On the tests, when people go on the website, regularly is completely irrelevant—unless we have an effective there are absolutely no tests available anywhere in the contact tracing and tracking system. We will not get the whole of the United Kingdom, or if they are lucky, they R number down. We will not control the virus. I am just will be sent from the Rhondda to Aberdeen or Aberystwyth, asking for an effective system, not a world-beating one. presumably because that is alphabetically at least close It should not be too much to ask. to Aberdare, even if it is not physically close to the Rhondda at all. The Minister mentioned walk-in centres—great. Darnall in my constituency had a high level of infections. A There are no home test kits nearly all the time. A high walk-in testing centre was introduced. Within a few percentage of my constituents have no car, but they are days, people could not walk into it anymore, but they not allowed to go on public transport, so it is pretty could phone up. When constituents phoned up to make difficult for them to get to any of the test sites. Even an appointment at the local centre, they were diverted today, people had booked a walk-in appointment in to another centre many miles away. That is no way to Treorchy—they walked 6 miles there and were going to run an effective system. And then, of course, people walk 6 miles back—but when they arrived they were told wait days for the results to come back, meaning that that they could not have their test because they were not other people are either walking around when they are in a car, even though it was meant to be a walk-in site. infectious, when they should be isolating, or isolating The results service is shockingly poor: according to when they have no need to. What a waste of people’s the Government’s own figures, just 2% of people got time. What a risk to health. their results within 24 hours last week. Just 2%—how The Sheffield Star has done an excellent job in giving on earth could someone intend to keep a contract with local people information. The other day it said that on a company that was failing so badly? Why is it that this the most recent figures, only 60% of people who should company cannot do what hundreds of other private be contacted because they have been in contact with an sector companies in the country do, which is allow people infected person are actually being contacted through to track their result? People can track their Amazon the track and trace system. Towards the end of September, delivery—I have never had one because Amazon does only 60% of infected cases were being put in the system not pay its taxes properly—by can logging on and in the first place, which means that only one third of finding out exactly when it is going to arrive. Why can those who should have been contacted were actually this company not do the same? It would save hours and being contacted. This is a major failure—a system that hours of time—not least in constituency MPs’ offices, I is not effective; it is simply failing. Compare that with suspect—if there was a proper system for that. the 97% contact rate that has been achieved where The isolate system has also been a complete failure, contact tracking and tracing is being done at a local level because the Government do not seem to understand by local authorities and local directors of public health. that for many people, including many tradeswomen and I am not against a national system. I am not saying tradesmen and people who work on an hourly or daily that everything is going to be invented locally. I argued basis, the cost of self-isolating is a complete disincentive to the Prime Minister, however, when he came to the to doing the right thing. People simply cannot afford to Liaison Committee on 27 May, that when the national put food on the table for their kids and be able to system was developed, it should have been developed in self-isolate for two weeks. The system the Government co-ordination with and with the advice of the Local are introducing is far too late. It came into place only on Government Association and the Association of Directors 12 October, and so far I am not sure whether anybody of Public Health. That advice should have gone into it has actually managed to use it. And it is not generous in the first place. enough, either. I have believed from the beginning that we should The tracing system has been a complete disaster. The have had more stringent penalties in the national system target that the Government set was 80%; they have never to ensure that people complied with the requirements, met it in a single week—and last week it was the worst and people should have been compensated for a loss of result ever. I do not understand why Baroness Harding income when they isolated from the beginning. I am not is still in her job. It is an absolute mystery to me. 461 Local Contact Tracing14 OCTOBER 2020 Local Contact Tracing 462

Incidentally, it is a constitutional aberration that a 5.50 pm Member of the House of Lords who votes on party Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): The only political issues is also working in effect as a civil servant. thing I agreed with in the coalition Government’s I hate this concept of “world-beating”. Every time reform of the health service was the devolution of the Prime Minister tries to look Churchillian, he just public health to local councils. As my hon. Friend the looks like Neville Chamberlain to me. Lockdowns are a Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts) says, that is sign of the failure of this system, but I bet that is where because they know how to do it. They do it every we end up. week for sexually transmitted diseases, TB and other outbreaks. 5.47 pm The hon. Members for Crewe and Nantwich (Dr Mullan) Munira Wilson (Twickenham) (LD): My Liberal and for Milton Keynes North (Ben Everitt) accused Democrat colleagues and I support Labour’s motion. those of us on the Opposition Benches of being ideological. This is not about ideology; it is about what works. In the Let me put it on the record: I have no ideological issues midst of a public health emergency and an economic with using the private sector when it adds benefit. It is crisis the likes of which we have never seen before, it is this Government who have been ideological. Their national about not politics but what works. We in the Liberal test and trace system ignored local authorities. With the Democrats have been calling since April for tracing to school meals vouchers, they did not give the money to be locally led, because we understand that local authorities local authorities to put systems in place; it was a national know their communities best and local directors of system. PPE was a disaster. Even the national volunteering public health have the expertise to do the tracing. programme, where people who signed up were unable to There has been a lot of talk about testing and I have volunteer,was all done nationally.That national approach talked a lot about testing, so I shall not go over that, has been the biggest failure throughout this crisis. That given the time available, but the one thing I will say has been the ideological mindset of the Government. about it is that we must—must—turn around tests The issue with getting test and trace in place has become within 24 hours. That turnaround time has dropped to all about the number of tests. No, it is not. It is what around 25% and tracing is not effective if the tests are you do with those results afterwards. For example, in not turned around quickly enough. Cumbria test and trace is being done locally. It has I have heard about local tracing for myself from lower rates and those rates are going down. directors of public health and local councillors. In The system is broken. The hon. Member for West Watford, they have a 93% local tracing rate. This morning, Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Andrew Bowie) said I talked to councillors in Liverpool, where they have a that the Government have given local authorities 97% local tracing rate. Until today, they had had only £300 million. So what? They have put billions of pounds £300,000 to do that tracing, yet on average they have to into the hands of private companies, which have then trace around 5,000 contacts a day. Yes, more resources completely failed. If we were employing them ourselves are now going to tier 3, but that resource needs to go directly, we would have sacked them a long time ago. everywhere. The Government can bring in as many tiers and as Sky News has just broken the story that it has uncovered much information as they want, but there are two Boston Consulting Group contracts that suggest BCG things that have to be done with public health messages: consultants are paid £7,000 day rates to work on test make them clear and explain why they are being done. and trace. Just imagine how far that money would go if On those two things,the Government have failed completely it was given to local authorities. These consultants are by chopping and changing. They can bring in as many being paid weekly the equivalent of what a nurse earns fines and restrictions as they like, but unless there is in a year. I do not have an ideological issue with the effective testing and, more importantly, tracing of private sector, but, as the Chair of the Housing, individuals, they will not get on top of this crisis. Added Communities and Local Government Committee, the to that, the national contract means that my constituents hon. Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts), said, who work in care homes are waiting seven days to get a it is about having the right expertise in the right place. test result. I’m sorry, but it doesn’t work. On isolation, as the hon. Member for Rhondda It is no good the Government saying they are working (Chris Bryant) said, it is important that we have in place with local authorities. They are not. They are basically the right package of support, both financial and practical, throwing over to local authorities the positive test results as we have seen in other countries, including Korea and they cannot trace themselves. In many cases, it is too Germany. There is a local element in Italy and Iceland, late. My local director of public health says she is where local service providers are also supporting getting information 48 hours late. That is of absolutely enforcement with their local populations. It is not about no use. So, come on Government! Wake up! Get out of slapping £10,000 fines on people for not self-isolating, your ideological bubble and actually ensure you engage as this place has legislated to do. with local authorities. I say to the Minister humbly: please recognise that you cannot get everything right in a pandemic. Change 5.53 pm tack or we will be stuck in this yo-yo situation forever. The only way to keep the virus under control is by Dan Carden (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): It is very testing, tracing and isolating, so for the sake of the British difficult to convey the real strength of feeling across people, to save lives and to save jobs, turn around tests Liverpool at the utter failure of this Government on in 24 hours, devolve tracing locally and double down on care homes, PPE, and test and trace. Constituent after isolation. That should be the ultimate condition if there constituent has come to my office with heartbreaking is to be a circuit breaker. We need a major overhaul of stories. One was sent to south Wales on a 70-mile journey, the system. two-and-a-half hours in the car with an autistic child, 463 Local Contact Tracing14 OCTOBER 2020 Local Contact Tracing 464

[Dan Carden] and only today the leaders of all 10 councils in Greater Manchester and the Mayor, Andy Burnham, released a only to find that the test and trace centre had closed for statement in response to the new restrictions. In it, they the day because it had run out of tests. The petrol cost call for testing them £40 that they simply did not have. “to enable targeting of known or emerging points of transmission.” The anger and frustration are not just at the fact They also raise valid concerns about this Government’s that the response is failing, but that it is failing because attempt to bounce Greater Manchester into the higher the Government refused to enable and invest in local risk tier 3 category. authorities and public health teams, and instead chose to pump billions into scandal-ridden Government Theo Clarke (Stafford) (Con): To pick up the hon. contractors that have a record of failure after failure. Member’s point about specific venues and contact tracing, Under the cover of this pandemic, billions of pounds of in my constituency, pubs and restaurants have been public money has been handed to faceless corporations, successfully using track and trace now for several months. including Tory-linked firms, without competition or Venues such as Candid Beer, the Bird in Hand and the transparency, and without democratic accountability—or Market Vaults are already using contact tracing very any accountability to the public, for that matter. It is well. Does he not agree with me that contact tracing is money that should have been invested in our national actually playing a vital role in helping keep our hospitality health service and that should have left a legacy for the industry open for business? British people by building up the properly funded public services we can all rely on in the future, but instead it Navendu Mishra: I understand the points the hon. was siphoned off. Lady is making, but I think contact tracing in Greater Manchester and places with very high rates of infection The most egregious example is the eye-watering has not worked as well as it should have. I am pleased to £12 billion of public money handed to private companies, hear that in her constituency it is working well, but I including Serco, for this failing test and trace system. think the Government need to come forward with a The failures of Serco are well documented so I will not proper package to support jobs in the hospitality sector repeat them, but when I asked the Government what if they are going to force regions like the Liverpool city penalties will apply to private sector companies that fail region or Greater Manchester into tier 3. to meet the terms of their contract, the answer came back and it was clear: none whatsoever. In fact, Serco is The Government are dangling the carrot of local being rewarded for its failure with more and more control of test and trace. However, this should be on lucrative contracts. The cronyism is well documented as offer for all areas, and is more likely to be effective in well. Conservative Baroness and business executive Baroness areas that are in tier 1 and tier 2. If this Government Harding was appointed as the head of Track and Trace. pursue their current strategy, they will leave large parts The Serco chief executive officer is the brother of a of the north of England trapped in tier 3 for much of former Tory MP, and Tory MPs are on the boards of the winter. Given that cases are forecast to rise sharply companies winning contracts. If we have a problem as this Government lose control and refuse to provide with any of this, why not take it up with the Government’s the substantial economic support that tier 3 areas will anti-corruption champion—Dido Harding’s husband need, I fully support the call by a number of local and a Tory MP? The whole thing stinks.This Government’s authority leaders in Greater Manchester for a national incompetence, cronyism and ideological obsession with circuit break. This would also create the conditions for outsourcing and rip-off privatisation have undermined a reset of the test and trace service into a more locally our NHS and put lives at risk. controlled option, which will hopefully drive cases down to a lower level and be more likely to succeed. 5.56 pm The only way to defeat the virus is for national and local government to work hand in hand, upskill the Navendu Mishra (Stockport) (Lab): Weare at a crossroads local test and trace system, delegate sufficient powers in this crisis and the Government, rather than knowing and provide the financial support that is so desperately which way to turn, are instead caught in the headlights. required after 10 years of austerity and having stumped This Government have had seven months to get their up millions during the first phase of this pandemic. But test and trace system in place, but, tragically for the instead of addressing the failures of a privatised and almost 50,000 people who have lost their lives already centralised contact tracing model, this Government choose since this pandemic started, it has failed. There can be to keep pouring hundreds of millions of pounds into no excuse when our European partners have had an the likes of Serco to lead the effort on tracking and effective system in place since May. tracing. This is despite the recent poll by Survation This is a deeply worrying period for my Stockport revealing that 74% of the public wanted to see local constituents, given that Greater Manchester and the public health teams, rather than profit-making companies, north-west are witnessing some of the highest infection leading on this. Our European partners have had systems rates in the country, and we are now in the Government’s in place since May, yet almost six months later this tier 2 category. Indeed, in the borough of Stockport Government are rushing to hand the nearest contract to alone, there are now more than 4,000 cases of coronavirus, big business with no track record of delivery or success. and it is being reported that the Government will It is clear is that we cannot have more of the same today convene a gold command meeting where Greater from this Government such as the shambles of being Manchester may be moved into tier 3—the highest category. informed by a Health Minister that a new testing centre Despite this, the Government are offering little beyond was being opened for my constituents on a University lockdown measures to stop the spread of this deadly of Greenwich campus 240 miles away in Kent. I have disease. The Mayor of Greater Manchester has been already made it clear to the House that I am willing to calling for proper funding for test and trace for months, accept that the letter was an error, but it further exposes 465 Local Contact Tracing14 OCTOBER 2020 Local Contact Tracing 466 the Government’s complete mishandling of this crisis. respond with proper measures, we would not need it. In the absence of any effective form of test and trace, The Government only need look in the mirror to see frontline staff, including all workers in hospitals, schools why we are in this place. and local authorities, must be provided with access to Some incredible science is being done in our universities adequate personal protective equipment. and local labs, and I look forward to my meeting on Friday with the Minister on what is being done in York, 6 pm where the capacity, efficiency and effectiveness of testing Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op): It is can seriously outstrip many of those procured labs nearly nine months since the first case of covid came to which the Minister and her Government have already my constituency and, in that first instance, we had an engaged in. effective test and trace system. But my goodness, what This is a real opportunity. We have to use the best has happened since? We know from across the world science, and I trust that we will be able to do so. that effective test and tracing is beating the virus but here in the UK the virus is beating us. That is why it is essential that we get on top of the essential ingredients 6.4 pm of an effective test and trace system. Filling the pockets Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): I am glad to of all these private companies with contract after contract be called in this debate, so thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. is failing, and we know why that has been done—the I will make one point before speaking about tracking lack of investment in our NHS and in public health for and tracing in the Wirral. years. That has meant that they are bereft of the resources they need. It is disappointing to listen to Conservative Members criticising a political party’s position or what its briefings Weneed to turn this round and we have the opportunity might have been earlier this week or last week, before of this debate to address the issue effectively. We know SAGE’s minutes and reports were published on the next from the statistics that my hon. Friend the Member for steps that are needed. I would far rather that the Labour Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) set out earlier that, if about party had to correct its press releases than that we fail to two thirds of people who have been tested are then save lives that we otherwise could. I am sorry that transferred to the contact tracing system, only 17% of Conservative Members take a different view. them are reached. That means that fewer than half the people are effectively contact traced. That simply is not My hon. Friend the Member for Wirral West good enough in the midst of this pandemic. Time is of (Margaret Greenwood) spoke about the need for improved, the essence and we need to address this now Any larger public health teams, particularly in the Wirral. I transfer that we see to local authorities must also see the am thankful for Julie Webster and Elspeth Anwar, our transfer of resources. We cannot just see the transfer of director and deputy director of public health in the risk without the money coming with it to back it up and Wirral, who have been absolutely first-class public servants. enable local authorities to run effective systems locally. They have explained to me that, although they now have much more data about the outbreak in the Wirral I have talked to my local director of public health and the rest of Merseyside, we do not have enough and she has led an excellent fight to put the case not analysis. only for local testing but for saying where we need the centres to be. We need another testing centre in York That is to say that we cannot easily understand the story and we have been working with the university and a the data is telling us, because we do not have enough local lab to prove that we have a test processing and specialists working on this, particularly in the Wirral. I trace system for our city. That is what we need for a fast have learned through three years on the Treasury Committee turnaround of results. Time is of the essence with this and wading through reams of economic data that it is virus and the faster we get the results, the faster we trace not actually about the figures in front of you; it is about people who are potentially carrying the virus. We will understanding the story that the data is telling you and then be able to lock the virus down, which is what we acting accordingly. It is not numbers for the sake of want to do. numbers; it is the instructions those numbers give. I am confused, and I am sure I am not the only one, In an outbreak like this, we need a hypothesis about as to why York today is in tier 1 when the infection rate the methods of transmission so that we are able to test it there is higher than in some of the places in tier 3. It against the data. I say to the Minister that we not only does not make sense. I want the Minister to explain the need to help local authorities with the data; we also rationale for that. Yesterday, there were 95 infections in need analytical capacity in every town hall in Britain, York, and 246.4 per 100,000 and growing fast. We need because this virus travels through local areas in different to understand the rationale, not least because the infection ways. In London, many people are able to work from is transmitting in our city and we know that because we home. In a manufacturing environment, as we have in have been holding a mirror tracing system that has seen the Wirral, that just is not possible. People cannot make it go from household to household. Yet tier 1 does not cars and airplanes from their front room. bar such contact. If we are really serious about The virus travels differently in places where public understanding how to stop the virus, we need to go transport is more frequently used. Some places use through the proper processes and involve the local buses rather than trains, and they are a different directors of public health who could tell the Government environment. That is why I say again to the Minister: that we need the controls to stop the spread at this give us data analysts in every town hall in Britain, so we critical time before it gets completely out of control. can understand how this virus is travelling through our It is because of the failures that I have described that country and put a stop to it. If we had proper analysis the Labour party has been saying that there will be and local understanding, we would have half a chance a need for a circuit break. If the Government could of finding out how this virus works. 467 Local Contact Tracing14 OCTOBER 2020 Local Contact Tracing 468

6.8 pm I wish to say a word about asymptomatic carriers. Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) Research published by University College London last (Lab): I agree with everything my hon. Friend the week found that 86% of those sampled who had tested Member for Wirral South (Alison McGovern) said. positive for covid-19 between April and July had had no symptoms—that includes cough, fever or loss of taste NHS Test and Trace is not working. Billions of and smell. So many people who are asymptomatic test pounds have been poured into a system that has sidelined positive, as we have seen at Northumbria University, existing local expertise in primary care, public health and that is hugely concerning. It shows that we need a and science. The resulting system is labelled NHS Test much more robust and expanded testing strategy to and Trace, but it has hardly anything to do with the control the virus. NHS. Stop denigrating the NHS by associating it with this failing system. What are the Government doing to ensure that we We are stuck in this world of uncertainty, with a can capture these silent spreaders? Is the system anywhere rising infection rate and the virus out of control, and we close to having the capacity to address this, given that are without the ability to properly track it, as my hon. we cannot even test those who have symptoms and have Friend has just described. It is like “Groundhog Day”. been instructed to take a test? The Government wasted Until we have a vaccine, we will not get out of this the time we spent in national lockdown and failed to get without a functioning track and trace system. the apparatus of proper track and trace system in place once those restrictions were finally relaxed. We are now We are the fifth richest economy in the world, and we living with the consequences of that decision. As we have one of the best healthcare systems. We have leading now appear to be entering another era of harsher science research universities, yet we have spent all this restrictions across much of the country, the Government money contracting out the system to Serco. Now, on owe it to the people who continue to endure hardship, top of that, we are spending millions of pounds bringing uncertainty, loneliness and bereavement not to waste in private contractors to try to sort out the mess. It costs this time again. more in one week than we pay an experienced nurse in a year. It is a disgrace, and it feels like a wasted opportunity to build on the existing expertise and experience to 6.12 pm strengthen the local systems in primary care and local authorities. Doing that now is the only way out of this Naz Shah (Bradford West) (Lab): May I start by nightmare scenario. placing on the record my thanks to my local director of The outbreaks we have seen in the universities in public health, Sarah Muckle, and her team for all their Newcastle, for example, were not identified by the national hard work during this pandemic? Labour has been system—it seems incapable of doing that at present. calling on the Government to learn the lessons, help The outbreaks were identified based on local intelligence curb a rise in infections and save lives. The Government and local knowledge, and by piecing the pieces together. continue to use this phrase “NHS track and trace We know that co-operation between local health services system”, which is more widely and truthfully known by and authorities is the way to control infectious diseases. the British public as, “Huge amounts of cash going to GPs, NHS and public health laboratories, and local big private companies”—companies with links to the public health officers all play a key role. Winter is Tory party, and companies with truly abysmal track approaching and GPs will be the people who can see the and trace records and poor results: in short, Serco and overlap in covid symptoms such as fever and a dry Sitel. The Government are doing this instead of funding cough, and the classic flu symptoms of fatigue, sore local contact tracing and addressing the failures of a throat and headaches. We need that integrated public privatised and centralised contact tracing model. health expertise to truly make this testing and tracking Bradford, which contains my constituency, consistently system work. We have 1,200 primary care networks in seems to perform bottom on tracking and tracing the England. They will be best placed not only to run test, contacts of those who test positive for covid-19. The track and trace, but to deliver the vaccine when we average percentage of contacts reached in Bradford finally have it—we will be ready for it. over the last nine-week data period was 48.1%, but some weeks the figure has been lower than 40%. That is Dr Luke Evans (Bosworth) (Con): I hear time and half the Government’s target. The rising infection rates again from this side of the House people talking about are the direct result of a broken track and trace system, giving more to the primary care networks. As a GP, I the Government’s inability to use straightforward worry that this could be a concern for my public health communication and sheer incompetence on the part of colleagues as well because they already serve a function—of this Government. non-covid health service. I would be interested to hear the thoughts of others on this concern: what happens if Here are some examples to illustrate how poor the we keep putting more pressure on public health and Government’s communications have been. Two days GPs, who are already dealing with non-covid stuff? ago, the Secretary of State told me that Bradford will be How do we deal with this? It makes a lot of sense to in the high tier of restrictions. Later that same day, in bring in a national service to try to do that; we did that the press conference, the chief medical officer praised with the Army to help with test, track and trace. What Bradford for our response to the situation. Then yesterday, does the hon. Lady think about the possibility of extra we heard that the Government had started discussions pressure there? to place Bradford in the highest tier of restrictions. Today,there is a pre-paid, pre-booked full-page Government Catherine McKinnell: Absolutely, spend the billions advertisement in the Telegraph and Argus, Bradford’s of pounds that we have wasted—spend it on bumping local paper, saying that Bradford is in the medium tier up the capacity and ability of our local GPs and health of restrictions. So which one is it? Are we in the medium, services, which can do a better job. high or higher tier? 469 Local Contact Tracing14 OCTOBER 2020 Local Contact Tracing 470

Hold on—there’s more. On a Zoom call two days Leicester had a rate of 100 per 100,000 when it went ago, I asked the Secretary of State what his Department into lockdown. In Chesterfield, we have a rate of 143 per was doing to address the issue of low numbers of 100,000, and we are still in tier 1. The scale of how bad people being tracked and traced in Bradford. Two days this must be before the Government are shocked is later, I still have no response, and yet the Secretary of changing all the time. State expects Members to be on a call with 20 minutes’ I was recently in self-isolation because a friend told notice, and that is if they are lucky enough to get the me that he had been diagnosed with coronavirus four email and not be on a train travelling down here. days before Test and Trace got in touch with me. The The privatised track and trace programme is not date that Test and Trace had was nine days after I came working. My constituents deserve better. We need to get out of self-isolation. The whole system is not working, ahead of this virus. I will come to this Chamber time and when you experience it yourself, you can see why and again to highlight the Government’s incompetence this failure is happening. and hold them to account for the sake of my constituents, because my constituents deserve better. 6.19 pm

6.15 pm Beth Winter (Cynon Valley) (Lab): The purpose of test, track and trace is to save lives. Despite the Prime Mr Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): I spent an Minister’s promise of a “world-beating” system, the early part of my career in the sales industry, selling in system that we have is shambolic. Health contracts the IT sector. I just wish that at some point I had come worth £830 million have been handed to private companies across a customer with as much money as this Government, using public money to run ineffective systems, instead and one so easily impressed and willing to give money of investing in our public services. In Wales, we have to suppliers and then to defend them when they let established a successful public sector “test, trace, protect” them down. I never came across a customer nearly as system, and recent figures show that 96% of close naive as this Government. contacts have been reached—much higher than the Occasionally, a story seems to demonstrate a much Serco private sector system. Currently, however, testing wider point. So it was today with the scoop revealed by in Wales is still partly dependent on the UK Government’s Ed Conway of Sky News that the Government are privately run and centrally managed testing system, paying £7,360 per day to the management consultants which has caused confusion and placed people at risk. at Boston Consulting Group, who are in charge of test I will illustrate the point with my experience in Cynon and trace. That is the equivalent of a £1.5 million salary Valley, which has one of the privately run centres. It is a to preside over this shambolic system that is letting case study in how not to do things. On 17 September, down all the people in my constituency and so many because of a worrying increase in covid cases in my others. We will not find dedicated public servants being constituency, serious local restrictions were placed on paid £7,500 a day or £1.5 million a year, but we will find us that meant that people could not travel in or out of a basic competence, a knowledge of their area and a the local authority area without a reasonable excuse. A desire to ensure that systems work before they are Serco covid-19 testing site was established in the village implemented. That is what we need right now in our of Abercynon, where it became apparent that operational system. failures were compromising the new restrictions brought It is telling that, in a debate of this importance, with in for the area. There was a shortage of testing kits, every Back-Bench Member of Parliament invited to which resulted in the site being closed for several hours, contribute, just three Conservative MPs wanted to put and there were problems with the administration of the their name on the list and say, “I will go in and speak up testing regime. for the Government, because I think they are doing a I was astounded to find that the centrally administered, good job.” That is because people in their constituencies privately run system was allocating appointments that know what is happening, and Conservative Members required people to travel hundreds of miles across the do not want it to be on their record that they were the UK, including families with children and vulnerable ones speaking up for the Government, so they leave it to people. That was unacceptable and extremely dangerous us to come here and expose the reality. That is what is to those coming into the high-incidence area, as well as happening. There are 365 Tory MPs—where are they? to the local population in my constituency. I wrote to They are off in their offices hiding, while people in my the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care on constituency are being let down. [Interruption.] I accept that day in September with a series of questions, but I that three have turned up, and I thank them for that, have yet to receive a response. That is totally unacceptable. but I am talking about the rest of them. Thank goodness that in Wales we have a measure of Weall remember when Leicester first went into lockdown independence from this Tory Government, and that we and everyone said, “Oh my God! The rate in Leicester is were able to act to address the problems through a appalling—those poor people.” The infection rate was system co-ordinated by a proactive local authority health less than 100 per 100,000 then. board and the Welsh Government. As the public are asked to make sacrifices to reduce the transmission of Naz Shah: Does my hon. Friend share my worry that covid-19, it is imperative for the Government to keep the proportion of people being reached by Test and their side of the bargain and get the test, track and trace Trace has decreased over the last three weeks and is now system right. Most importantly, I know from experience at a level similar to the one seen in the first week of the that local decision making in action is best, as are programme? publicly owned services. Let us learn the lessons of Abercynon, invest in our public services and not let Mr Perkins: Yes, I do, and I had an experience of that private profit and greed override the health needs in recently. our communities. 471 Local Contact Tracing14 OCTOBER 2020 Local Contact Tracing 472

6.22 pm Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): The wind-ups will begin at 6.46 pm. Alex Davies-Jones (Pontypridd) (Lab): Diolch yn fawr iawn, Mr Deputy Speaker. I simply must use this opportunity to echo the sentiments of my constituency 6.25 pm neighbours and hon. Friends the Members for Rhondda Kate Osborne (Jarrow) (Lab): Let us be clear from the (Chris Bryant) and for Cynon Valley (Beth Winter) start: the test, trace and isolate chaos that we are about the Welsh Labour Government’s approach to currently facing has been caused by outsourced companies contact tracing. In Wales, contact tracing is managed by running what should be public services for their own local authorities and health boards and allows for a private profit. The current restrictions were never inevitable; more cohesive approach to contacting those at risk of they became inevitable as a result of this Government’s contracting the virus. failure to get a properly functioning test, trace and I truly feel sorry for my colleagues who represent isolate system in place. The system has been given to areas across England, both in this place and at local private companies with no qualifications for this work, authority level. Shockingly, councils across England are overseen by business executives with no experience in rapidly losing faith in the Government’s shambolic public health. Just days before local restrictions came track and trace system and are being forced to take into place in the north-east, my Jarrow constituents action themselves. By contrast, the Welsh Labour were asking me to find out what has happened with the Government have taken a cautious yet clear approach “shambles”, as they put it, that is the covid testing to the coronavirus, with local contact tracing at the very system. One constituent, Tracy, told me how a family heart of their policy. I have said it many, many times member did a 110-mile round trip from Gateshead to and I am happy to keep saying it: where Wales leads, Hawick in Scotland for a test. This was while there were England should follow. I sincerely hope that after this appointments in Newcastle just a few miles along the debate the Minister will be able to convince England’s road, but the centre had IT problems and the QR code Health Secretary to follow the localised approach of was not being generated. She was rightly furious that track and trace, which is clearly the best option if we are her family member, while displaying symptoms, had to ever to get a grip on this virus. drive this distance. My Jarrow constituents are right: it Sadly,even with our fantastic Welsh Labour Government, is an utter shambles. this Government’s chaotic handling of the coronavirus This Government’s approach to contact tracing is not has still had a significant impact on people in Wales. just shambolic—it is dangerous. The evidence shows Colleagues will have heard that the First Minister of that contact tracing works much better on a local level. Wales has now had to announce that he has been forced Both the South Tyneside and Gateshead local authorities to introduce new regulations to protect the health of the covering my constituency have been constantly telling people in Wales, after this Government have yet again the Government this, but they are just not listening. I stood back. The Prime Minister fails to engage with the pay tribute to Alice Wiseman and Tom Hall, the directors Welsh Labour Government, and in doing so he has of public health for those authorities, and their teams, failed the people across Wales. Hundreds of people in for their dedication and hard work. my constituency of Pontypridd have been pushing for From Oldham to Peterborough, from Manchester to restrictions on travel into Wales for people who are Cumbria, and across Wales, we have seen how local living in coronavirus hotspots in England, yet the Prime councils bring back much higher contact rates and can Minister ignores them. curb the spread of infection far more than the outsourced The UK Government are cherry-picking what they model that the Government keep throwing money away want and when they want to support the devolved on. The Government know it is not working, yet the nations, but on coronavirus testing, tracking and tracing, same old Tory ideological commitment to outsourcing they are causing more delays, damage and destruction. continues. According to the Government’s own data, It simply is not fair to the people in Wales, and we local health protection teams are reaching 97% of contacts deserve better. The Minister may also be aware that and asking them to self-isolate,while,in contrast, outsourced there are a number of coronavirus testing sites in Rhondda cases handled online or by call centres return 62.4% contact Cynon Taf, including one in Treforest in my constituency. rates. The most striking thing is that the Government I do not believe that any of us in this place are in a have had plenty of opportunity throughout the summer position to refuse help for local authorities with coronavirus to address the failures of a privatised and centralised testing, but I am flabbergasted that the UK Government contact tracing model, yet they have chosen to keep have gone ahead and launched the site without consulting pouring money into the likes of Serco to lead the effort the Welsh Government. I could get over this if I had on tracking and tracing. faith in the UK Government’s system in the first place. Jane Stevenson (Wolverhampton North East) (Con): Thankfully, in Wales we have the Welsh Government, There must be a common-sense approach at both ends who have been able to step in where possible, but this of this. Does the hon. Lady accept that, as my hon. simply should not be the case. Friend the Member for Bosworth (Dr Evans) said, the I fully support the collaborative approach to tackling NHS and public health authorities do not have the the virus, but this can only work when the UK Government capacity to cope with the vast number of tests, and we can admit, acknowledge and act on their own mistakes need this national approach as well as local involvement? and failings. I hope that ultimately the Minister sees sense and acknowledges that the system for track and Kate Osborne: No, I do not. The Government can trace across England is on its knees. Only when we have put this right by putting more money in, of course. a robust, local authority-led track and trace system in As my hon. Friends the Members for Newcastle upon place across the UK will we ever have any hope of Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell) and for Bradford seeing coronavirus rates reduce across all our nations. West (Naz Shah), among others, have said, we have to 473 Local Contact Tracing14 OCTOBER 2020 Local Contact Tracing 474 stop calling it “NHS Track and Trace”, as it clearly is and would like to be able to help, so I have a plea to the not. It has failed, it is wasteful, it is throwing taxpayers’ Minister: can we please be more transparent about what money down the drain, and the people of this country is coming out of the Lighthouse labs, so that it can be deserve better. In fact, only this afternoon, as already scrutinised by real experts in the field? highlighted by my hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield I will end with a heartbreaking story of what this (Mr Perkins), I heard that the Government paid Boston means. I heard from the mother of a disabled child in Consulting Group about £10 million for a team of my constituency whose carers were unable to receive 40 consultants to do four months’ work on this failed tests, so the mother was not able to visit them for two testing system between the end of April and late August. weeks during September. That child is unable to read Yet our local public services, hollowed out by 10 years their facial expressions owing to PPE and therefore of austerity, are being left with no support to pick up struggles to interact with them; and because the carers the pieces of a failed system. were unable to receive tests, the mother is incredibly Our local authorities in the north-east were crucial in worried and that child is left without the proper care. the frontline against the first wave of this virus. That is This all comes back to real stories and real people. why the Government must recognise their value by extending additional funding for contact tracing available in tier 3 areas to all parts of the country.The Government 6.32 pm must ensure that local authorities and public health Olivia Blake (Sheffield, Hallam) (Lab): Today,Sheffield’s teams receive the resources and powers that they need. director of public health, Greg Fell, said that it is not a matter of if, but when, Sheffield heads into tier 3 6.29 pm lockdown. Yesterday, he reported that the number of Layla Moran (Oxford West and Abingdon) (LD): cases in the city stands at 450 in 100,000, taken as a The all-party parliamentary group on coronavirus, which rolling seven-day average. I chair, led hearings all through the summer; the very Sheffield has two fantastic, world-class universities. first ones we held back in July were on test and trace, Since the return to teaching, we have seen a large spike and then we did it again last week. It was saddening to in cases among the 15 to 25-year-olds in my city, but the see that a lot of the predictions many of the experts virus is spreading beyond that group. Our public health made about the issues with test and trace back in July team is reporting a significant increase in cases among have since come to fruition. The things they were saying the over-65s. We have also seen more people admitted to were very much common sense. hospital, and more people given oxygen and ventilation. First, and I hope this is self-evident, this stuff is not I am sure there are Members from across the House easy. It may seem easy when we have read a briefing who can report very similar experiences. from the Library or whatever else, and the basic principles Sheffield’s local public health team is clear that getting are easy, but the specifics of running a massive lab are this under control needs a quick turnaround of test very niche and require a lot of expertise. There are very results, and rapid and complete contact tracing. People few people in this country who can do this incredibly in my constituency and across the country desperately well, so when we say it should be a locally led test and need a functioning test, track and trace—and do not trace system, of course it needs to be backed up by forget isolate—system, but the Government are failing national capacity, but it should be led by those who are them. Many people in my constituency have contacted closest on the ground. We also took evidence from me to say they have struggled to access a test, and that experts in Italy, who were also pointing to what Germany when they have finally got hold of one it has taken far has done, and what they have in common is that that is too long to receive results, with one in four people how they run it: the people closest to the ground lead it, receiving their test results later than the 24-hour period backed up by national systems and national resourcing. promised by the Prime Minister. That is what we are asking for; it is what we have been I am one of the few Members in this place who has asking for for the past three months, and here we are on experience as both a biomedical scientist and a deputy the verge of what is likely to be an inevitable second leader of a council, so I am in a pretty unique position national lockdown, because yet again we are not listening to talk about the research that is going on at the to the scientists. moment in our universities. In research conducted by Andrew Bowie: It is not inevitable. Unite, we heard some shocking reports from NHS scientists about the under-utilisation of NHS testing Layla Moran: Well, we will see. I sincerely hope I am labs. Meanwhile, the privatised network of Lighthouse wrong, but unfortunately, we have not done enough labs has seen backlogs of 185,000 tests. listening to the experts. Speaking of experts, I want to put on record my Suzanne Webb (Stourbridge) (Con): Will the hon. thanks to Oxfordshire’s public health director and his Lady give way? team, but also the councillors, the councils and the lab technicians—the people behind the scenes, who very Olivia Blake: No, I will not give way because we are rarely receive thanks. They do an incredible job, and short on time. one of the things I would like to highlight while the Why are the Government prioritising those private Minister is in her place is that concerns have been raised labs over our NHS to implement the testing system about pillar 1 and pillar 2 testing labs not talking to when those labs are clearly failing? We have seen some each other. There is not enough transparency coming really good success in our labs in Sheffield, which have out of the community testing Lighthouse labs, and we been testing staff at the teaching hospitals, and that cannot be assured of their quality. Those concerns have could have been a lesson learned and applied across been raised by people who are really expert in this area the country. 475 Local Contact Tracing14 OCTOBER 2020 Local Contact Tracing 476

[Olivia Blake] of this afternoon, Liverpool has no intensive care unit beds in the city, and the virus is impacting other critical I have conducted polymerase chain reaction tests. I care wards. It is time that this Government stop playing know that it is not that difficult. Moonshot is a complete ideological games with people’s lives and handed and utter dream. I can safely say that I have been responsibility back to local authorities, regional public watching the testing system with frustration and I have health directors and our NHS to run this critical suddenly become very popular with my ex-colleagues. programme, save lives and protect our NHS. They have been very enlightening when describing the conditions in which they have been working— 6.38 pm often as volunteers while they are furloughed from their other labs. Ruth Cadbury (Brentford and Isleworth) (Lab): I am In Sheffield, we heard that a recruitment drive was pleased to have the opportunity to speak in this debate requested by the Prime Minister in September—a little on local track and trace in England, which is highlighting bit late and a little bit after the horse has bolted. By that the failure of the centralised, private, not NHS, track time, the planning for teaching was well under way and and trace system. the contracts of many of them had ended and the Public health has been embedded in local structures seconding of staff was no longer available. since the Public Health Act 1848, which came about I have much more to say on this issue. I could go on following the devastating cholera outbreaks. Directors and on and on, but the last thing I wish to say is that the of public health have been tracing and tracking, and so numbers speak for themselves— tackling, outbreaks of disease in England since then— tuberculosis, sexually transmitted diseases and food Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. poisoning to name just a few. Experienced DPHs are embedded in the local councils and work alongside the local NHS, the voluntary sector, care providers and 6.35 pm employers. They know their communities. In communities Kim Johnson (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab): Liverpool such as mine, they have people who can speak the is proof, if proof is needed, that the Government’s various different community languages, too. They work privatised test and trace system has failed. The Government within regional and national public health networks. have had months to get an effective system in place, but The Minister said earlier in this debate that Government we are still waiting for it. The proportion of people and local government are better together, but councils’ being reached by the test and trace system has decreased competence in infection control was actually only fully over the past three weeks, coinciding with the sharpest acknowledged by the Government on Monday in increase in infection rates that we have seen since the a statement by the Secretary of State for Housing, first wave in the spring. We cannot afford to have an Communities and Local Government. After months of ineffective test, track and trace system. asking, it was July before directors of public health in England were finally sent the contact details of residents Suzanne Webb: Will the hon. Lady give way? known to be infected. Even now, Hounslow’s director of public health says that data sent from the national Kim Johnson: No, thank you. I cannot give way. system is still often inaccurate, meaning that some Let us be clear: it is not the NHS test and trace people are contacted twice, so feel harassed and alienated system that is failing us because the NHS has not been by the system, and, worse, others are not contacted at given the contract. It is a privatised system, wasting all. We know that similar countries, such as Germany billions of pounds, that is failing us and the people of and South Korea, can do track and trace effectively. this country. We can no longer depend on a national Neighbouring Wales traces 97% of contacts, against system that 74% of the population believe is not working. England’s 62.4% and declining. Contracts are handed out without competitive tendering, I have long experience of leadership roles in local which is what happened with the company that was set government. I am not ideologically opposed to procuring up on 12 May 2020 by an associate of a Conservative from the private sector when it can do something better, peer. It had no track record and received a £122 million but at the core of public sector outsourcing is, or rather contract. There are all those favoured Government should be, proper commissioning—how much, how companies with a track record of failure, such as Serco, many, by when and to what standard—and procurement which was fined £23 million by the Serious Fraud from those with proven competency, through competitive Office last year for overclaiming on its tagging contract, or its tendering, providing value for money. We cannot have subcontractor Concentrix, which was previously involved sanctions for non-performance if we do not set standards in scandals around tax credits. Millions of pounds have in the first place. We know from answers to written been gifted to privatised companies, whether or not questions—after my own experience, I have asked about they are successful. Serco’s track and trace programme the loss of tests—that the Government do not actually is reaching only 68% of close contacts. My local health set standards for most of these contracts. protection teams have managed to communicate with In outsourcing test and trace, the Government have 97% of contacts. People’s lives are dependent on an broken every procurement rule that they impose on effective and swift test, track and trace programme. councils and other parts of the public sector. They Half of the wards in my constituency are in the top should stop shovelling money to their unaccountable 20% of deprived neighbourhoods. Poverty is strongly and incompetent friends, work with established public linked with the incidence of covid-19. We have a large health directors and public health systems, and be serious black community who are more susceptible to the virus about what works to slow the reproduction rate by up and prone to a disproportionate number of deaths. As to a quarter. 477 Local Contact Tracing14 OCTOBER 2020 Local Contact Tracing 478

6.41 pm have told me it is not working; local councils have told Matt Rodda (Reading East) (Lab): I would like to the Government that it is not working; and now scientists make three brief points in support of the motion. First, are telling the Government it is not working. It is time as I mentioned to the Minister, I have direct experience to give Serco a reboot; in fact, it is time to give Serco the from Reading and Woodley that supports the motion. boot. I ask the Minister to trust our local authorities Residents have recently been sent as far as south Wales—to and give them the contract for testing and tracing. the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley (Beth Winter), in fact, which is a six-hour Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I call round trip from Reading. To make matters worse, we Chris Stephens, who is to resume his seat at 6.47 pm. were promised a new testing centre, which has not arrived. This is in a university town, which obviously is 6.45 pm particularly at risk. Ministers promised that students would have to travel no further than 1.5 miles for a test. Chris Stephens (Glasgow South West) (SNP): Thanks very much, Mr Deputy Speaker. You had signalled to Suzanne Webb: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? me that you were not going to call me, so I am a bit surprised. Matt Rodda: I will not, I am afraid, because of the time pressure. To allow time for the Front-Bench speeches, I will briefly continue the Serco theme. I am concerned to I have reported these matters to the Universities hear that Serco got a contract without any competitive Minister, who is trying to help, but the current system tendering. My real concern is that last year both Serco means that she is unable to move quickly. and the argued in court—sadly, they were Secondly, we know that a local approach to contact successful—that because Serco was a private contractor tracing works. We have heard this afternoon that evidence delivering a public service, it was exempt from the Human from around the country, including Wales, and around Rights Act. To give Serco a contract like test and the world clearly demonstrates that local systems work. tracing, with all that could happen with data, and for it Their tracing rates for contacts of those infected are far to be exempt from the Human Rights Act, is very higher than that of the national outsourced system. dangerous territory for the Government. Thirdly and crucially, there is no time to lose. We It has been said before that Serco has now subcontracted must take action now if we are to have any chance of to 29 other companies, including those that have failed stemming the rising tide of infections. Once up and on HMRC contracts and in other places. That is of real running, a local tracing scheme could play an important concern. There is a lack of scrutiny here and I will be part in keeping the virus under control until we have a supporting the motion. vaccine and more effective treatments. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I apologise to 6.42 pm Matt Western and Zarah Sultana for their not being Fleur Anderson (Putney) (Lab): I am grateful for the able to get in even though they were present. opportunity to speak on the issue of track and trace. I and other Opposition Members are rightly furious at the amount of money being spent on private companies 6.46 pm that could have been invested in our own NHS and in Steve Reed (Croydon North) (Lab/Co-op): Our country local public authority systems. faces an unprecedented health crisis as we battle covid-19. This issue is of huge interest to my constituents No Government could be expected to get everything in Putney, Roehampton and Southfields. More than right first time, but a competent Government would 100 people have written to tell me about where it has learn as they go along, recognise their mistakes and put gone wrong with testing and tracing, and more than them right. Tragically for our country, this Government’s 700 people have signed my joint letter with my hon. incompetence continues to put lives and livelihoods at Friends the Members for Tooting (Dr Allin-Khan) and risk. I am grateful to the Members who have detailed for Battersea (Marsha De Cordova), asking for a permanent that failure up and down the country—there were too testing centre in Wandsworth borough. Deloitte has manyon the Opposition Benches to name them individually, been sent to find one, but it cannot find a place, so we but was it not notable how few Conservative MPs came do not have one; we rely on the Army to pop up every to speak in defence of the Government’s record of now and again. One mother was left in a car park, failure? having to travel to another testing centre. She could not A second spike in infections was never inevitable, and find a QR code on her app. The testing centre was nor were the restrictions and lockdowns that are now almost empty, but she was not able to go in. necessary to consign it. They are the result of this The Minister talked about a spine and ribs, and the Government’s failure to control the spread of the virus. whole system working together. We have a spine in this There are two reasons why the Government keep getting country: it is the NHS. It is a national health system. We it wrong: the first is their urge to over-centralise control, should have used that from the start rather than spending so that they fail to use the experience and expertise on £12 billion on systems that have entirely failed us. the frontline; the second is their dogmatic urge to marketise SAGE has now said that track and trace had a minimal everything, bypassing procurement rules to hand out effect on stopping the virus, but it should have been the multibillion-pound contracts to Conservative party cronies core of our reaction and our action to stop the virus. who lack the skills to do the job. That is how they got it The existing privately outsourced system has failed. wrong on PPE distribution, on testing, on shielding and We have no permanent testing area in Wandsworth—will on contact tracing. They keep repeating the same mistakes the Minister meet me to talk about that? My constituents because they refuse to listen. 479 Local Contact Tracing14 OCTOBER 2020 Local Contact Tracing 480

[Steve Reed] 6.51 pm The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office I have been listening to council leaders since the start (Julia Lopez): It is a pleasure to close this debate on of the pandemic. As far back as April, they told me that behalf of the Government, and I would like to thank all the Government were not listening to them about contact hon. and right hon. Members across the House for their tracing, even though local government is where the varied and considered contributions this afternoon. country’s experts work. Public health directors and NHS Test and Trace is one of the strongest weapons in their teams have years of experience of mapping how our armoury in this fight against coronavirus. In the last infections spread, contacting those at risk and containing seven days alone, we have processed more than 1.8 million the spread. They know how their local community tests, with 219,000 just yesterday. That helps us to break moves around, they know where the transmission hotspots chains of transmission through testing, contact tracing are and they know how to communicate best with their and outbreak management in an end-to-end service to local communities on how to keep safe. The expertise help to prevent the spread of the virus, protect local exists up and down the country, but the Government communities and save lives and livelihoods. As we have chose to ignore it. heard today, it is both a national and a local operation, Instead, the Government wasted months and millions with close working already taking place with local of pounds on the shambolic development of an app on authorities. Like others here, I would like to pay tribute the Isle of Wight that never worked. They spent more to those local authority leaders and directors of public than £11 billion on outsourced contracts and an army health who have been in the heart of their communities of management consultants, including Serco, whose helping to inform both those important strands. contact-tracing system SAGE now tells us needs a If I may, I will take a moment to reflect on some major overhaul because of its advances. We have built the largest diagnostic network “relatively low levels of engagement” in British history.Has it been seamless? No. Are we getting and there? Yes, absolutely. It is developing all the time. “marginal impact”. Suzanne Webb: Will the Minister give way? They spent £11 billion on that. And as we have heard this evening, some Boston Consulting Group managers Julia Lopez: I am afraid that time is short, so I will are paid the equivalent of annual salaries of £1.5 million continue if I may. for their role in this Government failure. It is a disgrace. The network is developing all the time, and at the The Government knew that they could not open up moment includes five major Lighthouse laboratories, society or the economy safely without a functioning 96 NHS labs across 29 pathology networks, and over track and trace system. Without it, a second spike and a 500 testing sites. This is a tremendous undertaking in second lockdown became inevitable. The Prime Minister such a short period, and in a period of national crisis. and his Cabinet chased the headlines rather than chasing We are doing more testing per head than almost any down the virus, and we have ended up where we are other major nation. Yesterday, capacity sat at more today. The only thing this Government are world beaters than 344,000, and we are expanding capacity further to in is incompetence. Nineteen of the 20 areas that have meet a target of half a million tests a day by the end of been in local lockdowns for more than two months have October. This will include our NHS labs going even seen infection rates rise, not fall, because contact tracing further to reach 100,000 tests a day. More labs are is not working. We all have constituents who have tested joining the network, and we are investing in new technology positive telling us they are contacted only towards the to process results faster. We are also automating parts end of their period of self-isolation, when it is too late of the process, installing new machines and hiring more to stop their contacts spreading the infection. That is permanent staff. why the R is rising. Without a functioning track and trace system, the Chris Bryant: May I make a simple suggestion? It Government’s tiered system of restrictions is too weak would be really helpful to the vast majority of people to stop the virus spreading, but severe enough to cause who are waiting for tests if there was a simple means of economic harm. They have managed to find a way to them being able to track where their test had got to, just lose on both fronts: damaging the economy, but without as happens with Amazon and many thousands of other fully protecting the public. The answers are there if only companies in this country. It would also save vast the Government would listen. We have already heard amounts of time for the company. how a locally led tracing system contacts over 97% of affected people in Cumbria, while the Government’s Julia Lopez: I will take that suggestion back. We have failing national system contacts barely two in five people listened to a lot of what has been said today, and there in Slough. has been a lot of constructive feedback. I just want to The way to fix track and trace is to put the experts on let the hon. Member for Reading East (Matt Rodda) know the frontline in charge of public and private partnerships. that we are going to be opening a testing site on the Wecannot let this Government’sblinkered over-centralising campus in Reading next week. dogma stand in the way of public health. This is a great As many have said, the work that we are doing on test country and we can revive the economy after the pandemic, and trace is absolutely critical. My hon. Friend the but we cannot revive the dead. This Government’s Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Dr Mullan), who is incompetence is lethal. We need them to get a grip, a doctor himself and one of the many Conservative recognise that they have failed, and set free those who MPs who work in the health service, made a superb are best placed to fix contact tracing and stop the virus contribution using his experience of the system. He spreading in every community up and down the land. rightly pointed out that the vocal comparisons made at 481 Local Contact Tracing14 OCTOBER 2020 Local Contact Tracing 482 the outset of the pandemic with other European nations who are self-isolating to ensure that they are aware of have suddenly faded away now that the UK is testing what local support is available to them and signposting more per capita than those same nations. He encouraged them to local services. us to be realistic about the capacity of the public sector Alongside that, we have set out a series of tougher and talked about the challenges of making things happen enforcement measures, targeting those who repeatedly in practice, rather than simply lecturing from the sidelines flout the rules, including fines of up to £10,000, but about theoretical magic bullets. testing and tracing is only one of our lines of defence, The hon. Member for Slough (Mr Dhesi) said that we so I reinforce once again: if you have symptoms, you must test, test, test, and we are. As I mentioned, we must self-isolate in line with public guidance and get a hope to be able to do 500,000 tests a day by the end of test. Even if you are feeling well, wash your hands this month. On the points that he raised about the regularly, wear a face covering in confined spaces and Slough testing centre, it is critical to underline that follow the 2 metre rule on social distancing, because it is people must make sure they have booked their appointment these little things that can make a big difference. before they arrive on foot or by car. I understand that In conclusion, we are entering a new and crucial that test centre is still accessible by both methods. phase of our fight against coronavirus, where the number of cases is rising and we can see that once again, the My hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes North virus is spreading among the elderly and vulnerable. (Ben Everitt) talked about the huge role that his town But we are also in a very different position as a nation has played in the national effort, from the initial quarantine from where we were when this virus first hit our shores. of British citizens from Wuhan to the incredible Lighthouse We have better data, better treatments and the testing project that is employing robotics to boost our testing and contact tracing that will be instrumental in getting capacity. We are grateful for that contribution at this the virus under control. There is a genuine partnership time of crisis. As he said, from vaccines to ventilators, approach—a national framework with tremendous local medication to PPE, all have been produced at scale very support—and I commend the amendment to the House. quickly by the private sector, and British companies have achieved tremendous things. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): During the Division, Front Benchers must leave via the door in I welcome those Opposition Members who recognised front. Everybody else must leave via the door behind the challenges that we face as a Government and who me—socially distanced, please. made constructive contributions, highlighting genuine concerns from constituents. We are working through Question put (Standing Order No. 31(2)), That the some of those concerns. However, I share the regret of original words stand part of the Question. my hon. Friend the Member for Winchester (Steve Brine), The House divided: Ayes 258, Noes 338. who pointed out that the era of constructive opposition Division No. 137] [6.59 pm from Labour Front Benchers appears this week to be over. It is important in this public health crisis that we AYES reflect on criticism and try very hard to improve. However, this afternoon, they have sought to divide local from Abbott, rh Ms Diane Cadbury, Ruth national, public from private, UK nation from UK Abrahams, Debbie Callaghan, Amy nation, and to undermine public confidence in the Ali, Rushanara Cameron, Dr Lisa system for their own political ends. That is a matter of Ali, Tahir Campbell, rh Sir Alan Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Carden, Dan deep regret for us all. Amesbury, Mike Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair We recognise that contract tracing needs to reach as Anderson, Fleur Chamberlain, Wendy many people as possible and we are working hard to Antoniazzi, Tonia Champion, Sarah Ashworth, Jonathan Chapman, Douglas make sure that that happens, but this is about partnership, Bardell, Hannah Cherry, Joanna with a national framework and local support. Indeed, Barker, Paula Clark, Feryal we are rolling out that strengthened partnership to Beckett, rh Margaret Cooper, Daisy more local authorities. We also now have the covid-19 Begum, Apsana Cooper, Rosie app, downloaded over 17 million times in England and Benn, rh Hilary Cooper, rh Yvette Wales, identifying contacts with those who might have Betts, Mr Clive Corbyn, rh Jeremy tested positive for the virus, including people you might Black, Mhairi Cowan, Ronnie not know. Work is ongoing to make the Scottish app Blackford, rh Ian Coyle, Neil interoperable. Blackman, Kirsty Crawley, Angela Blake, Olivia Creasy, Stella It of course remains critical that everyone does their Bonnar, Steven Cruddas, Jon bit and follows the rules—hands, face and space, and Brabin, Tracy Cryer, John self-isolating where necessary to prevent the spread of Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Cummins, Judith the virus. That is why on 28 September, we introduced Brock, Deidre Cunningham, Alex financial support to help individuals to self-isolate, Brown, Alan Daby, Janet meaning that those on low incomes who cannot work Brown, Ms Lyn David, Wayne from home but need to self-isolate do protect themselves Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Davies, Geraint and others. They will receive £500. This is an important Bryant, Chris Davies-Jones, Alex step forward in helping enable people to take the action Buck, Ms Karen Day, Martyn that they should to prevent the spread of disease. We Burgon, Richard De Cordova, Marsha have also put in place requirements for businesses not to Butler, Dawn Debbonaire, Thangam stop employees self-isolating if they need to. NHS Test Byrne, Ian Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh and Trace is also making follow-up phone calls to those Byrne, rh Liam Docherty-Hughes, Martin 483 Local Contact Tracing14 OCTOBER 2020 Local Contact Tracing 484

Dodds, Anneliese Lammy, rh Mr David Rodda, Matt Thomas, Gareth Doogan, Dave Lavery, Ian Russell-Moyle, Lloyd Thomas-Symonds, Nick Dorans, Allan Law, Chris Saville Roberts, rh Liz Thompson, Owen Doughty, Stephen Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Shah, Naz Thomson, Richard Dowd, Peter Lewis, Clive Shannon, Jim Timms, rh Stephen Dromey, Jack Linden, David Sharma, Mr Virendra Trickett, Jon Eagle, Ms Angela Lloyd, Tony Sheerman, Mr Barry Turner, Karl Eagle, Maria Long Bailey, Rebecca Sheppard, Tommy Twigg, Derek Eastwood, Colum MacAskill, Kenny Siddiq, Tulip Twist, Liz Efford, Clive MacNeil, Angus Brendan Slaughter, Andy Vaz, rh Valerie Elliott, Julie Madders, Justin Smith, Alyn Webbe, Claudia Elmore, Chris Mahmood, Mr Khalid Smith, Cat West, Catherine Eshalomi, Florence Mahmood, Shabana Smith, Jeff Western, Matt Esterson, Bill Malhotra, Seema Smith, Nick Whitehead, Dr Alan Evans, Chris Maskell, Rachael Smyth, Karin Whitford, Dr Philippa Farron, Tim Matheson, Christian Sobel, Alex Whitley, Mick Farry, Stephen Mc Nally, John Spellar, rh John Whittome, Nadia Fellows, Marion McCabe, Steve Starmer, rh Keir Williams, Hywel Flynn, Stephen McCarthy, Kerry Stephens, Chris Wilson, Munira Fovargue, Yvonne McDonagh, Siobhain Stevens, Jo Winter, Beth Foxcroft, Vicky McDonald, Andy Stone, Jamie Wishart, Pete Foy, Mary Kelly McDonald, Stewart Malcolm Streeting, Wes Yasin, Mohammad Furniss, Gill McDonald, Stuart C. Stringer, Graham Zeichner, Daniel Gardiner, Barry McDonnell, rh John Sultana, Zarah Gibson, Patricia McFadden, rh Mr Pat Tami, rh Mark Tellers for the Ayes: Gill, Preet Kaur McGinn, Conor Tarry, Sam Colleen Fletcher and Glindon, Mary McGovern, , Alison Bambos Charalambous Grady, Patrick McKinnell, Catherine Grant, Peter McLaughlin, Anne NOES Gray, Neil McMahon, Jim Green, Kate McMorrin, Anna Adams, Nigel Britcliffe, Sara Greenwood, Lilian Mearns, Ian Afolami, Bim Brokenshire, rh James Greenwood, Margaret Miliband, rh Edward Afriyie, Adam Browne, Anthony Griffith, Nia Mishra, Navendu Ahmad Khan, Imran Bruce, Fiona Gwynne, Andrew Monaghan, Carol Aiken, Nickie Buchan, Felicity Haigh, Louise Moran, Layla Aldous, Peter Buckland, rh Robert Hamilton, Fabian Morden, Jessica Allan, Lucy Burghart, Alex Hanna, Claire Morgan, Stephen Amess, Sir David Burns, rh Conor Hanvey, Neale Morris, Grahame Anderson, Stuart Butler, Rob Hardy, Emma Murray, Ian Andrew, Stuart Cairns, rh Alun Harman, rh Ms Harriet Murray, James Ansell, Caroline Carter, Andy Harris, Carolyn Nandy, Lisa Argar, Edward Cartlidge, James Hayes, Helen Newlands, Gavin Atherton, Sarah Cash, Sir William Healey, rh John Nichols, Charlotte Atkins, Victoria Cates, Miriam Hendrick, Sir Mark Nicolson, John Bacon, Gareth Caulfield, Maria Hendry, Drew Norris, Alex Bacon, Mr Richard Chalk, Alex Hill, Mike O’Hara, Brendan Badenoch, Kemi Chishti, Rehman Hillier, Meg Olney, Sarah Bailey, Shaun Churchill, Jo Hobhouse, Wera Onwurah, Chi Baillie, Siobhan Clark, rh Greg Hodge, rh Dame Margaret Oppong-Asare, Abena Baker, Duncan Clarke, Mr Simon Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Osamor, Kate Baker, Mr Steve Clarke, Theo Hollern, Kate Osborne, Kate Baldwin, Harriett Clarke-Smith, Brendan Hopkins, Rachel Oswald, Kirsten Baron, Mr John Clarkson, Chris Hosie, Stewart Owatemi, Taiwo Baynes, Simon Cleverly, rh James Howarth, rh Sir George Owen, Sarah Bell, Aaron Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Hussain, Imran Peacock, Stephanie Benton, Scott Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Jardine, Christine Pennycook, Matthew Beresford, Sir Paul Colburn, Elliot Jarvis, Dan Perkins, Mr Toby Berry, rh Jake Collins, Damian Johnson, Dame Diana Phillips, Jess Bhatti, Saqib Costa, Alberto Johnson, Kim Phillipson, Bridget Blackman, Bob Courts, Robert Jones, Darren Pollard, Luke Blunt, Crispin Coutinho, Claire Jones, Gerald Powell, Lucy Bone, Mr Peter Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Jones, rh Mr Kevan Qureshi, Yasmin Bottomley, Sir Peter Crabb, rh Stephen Jones, Ruth Rayner, Angela Bowie, Andrew Crosbie, Virginia Jones, Sarah Reed, Steve Bradley, Ben Crouch, Tracey Kane, Mike Rees, Christina Bradley, rh Karen Daly, James Keeley, Barbara Reeves, Ellie Brady, Sir Graham Davies, Gareth Kendall, Liz Reeves, Rachel Braverman, rh Suella Davies, Dr James Khan, Afzal Reynolds, Jonathan Brereton, Jack Davies, Mims Kinnock, Stephen Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Bridgen, Andrew Davies, Philip Kyle, Peter Rimmer, Ms Marie Brine, Steve Davis, rh Mr David Lake, Ben Robinson, Gavin Bristow, Paul Davison, Dehenna 485 Local Contact Tracing14 OCTOBER 2020 Local Contact Tracing 486

Dines, Miss Sarah Holden, Mr Richard Moore, Damien Smith, rh Julian Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hollinrake, Kevin Moore, Robbie Smith, Royston Docherty, Leo Hollobone, Mr Philip Mordaunt, rh Penny Solloway, Amanda Donelan, Michelle Holloway, Adam Morris, Anne Marie Spencer, Dr Ben Double, Steve Holmes, Paul Morris, David Spencer, rh Mark Dowden, rh Oliver Howell, John Morris, James Stafford, Alexander Doyle-Price, Jackie Howell, Paul Morrissey, Joy Stephenson, Andrew Drax, Richard Huddleston, Nigel Morton, Wendy Stevenson, Jane Drummond, Mrs Flick Hudson, Dr Neil Mullan, Dr Kieran Stevenson, John Duddridge, James Hughes, Eddie Mumby-Croft, Holly Stewart, Bob Duguid, David Hunt, Jane Murray, Mrs Sheryll Stewart, Iain Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Hunt, Tom Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Streeter, Sir Gary Eastwood, Mark Jack, rh Mr Alister Neill, Sir Robert Stride, rh Mel Edwards, Ruth Javid, rh Sajid Nici, Lia Stuart, Graham Ellis, rh Michael Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Nokes, rh Caroline Sturdy, Julian Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Jenkin, Sir Bernard Norman, rh Jesse Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Jenkinson, Mark O’Brien, Neil Syms, Sir Robert Eustice, rh George Jenkyns, Andrea Offord, Dr Matthew Thomas, Derek Evans, Dr Luke Johnson, Gareth Opperman, Guy Throup, Maggie Evennett, rh Sir David Johnston, David Parish, Neil Timpson, Edward Everitt, Ben Jones, Andrew Paterson, rh Mr Owen Tolhurst, Kelly Fabricant, Michael Jones, rh Mr David Pawsey, Mark Tomlinson, Justin Farris, Laura Jones, Fay Penning, rh Sir Mike Tomlinson, Michael Fell, Simon Jones, Mr Marcus Penrose, John Tracey, Craig Fletcher, Katherine Jupp, Simon Percy, Andrew Trevelyan, rh Anne-Marie Fletcher, Mark Kawczynski, Daniel Philp, Chris Trott, Laura Fletcher, Nick Kearns, Alicia Pincher, rh Christopher Truss, rh Elizabeth Ford, Vicky Keegan, Gillian Poulter, Dr Dan Tugendhat, Tom Foster, Kevin Knight, rh Sir Greg Pow, Rebecca Vara, Mr Shailesh Francois, rh Mr Mark Knight, Julian Prentis, Victoria Vickers, Martin Frazer, Lucy Kruger, Danny Pritchard, Mark Vickers, Matt Freeman, George Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Quin, Jeremy Villiers, rh Theresa Freer, Mike Largan, Robert Quince, Will Wakeford, Christian Fuller, Richard Latham, Mrs Pauline Randall, Tom Walker, Sir Charles Fysh, Mr Marcus Leadsom, rh Andrea Redwood, rh John Wallace, rh Mr Ben Gale, rh Sir Roger Leigh, rh Sir Edward Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Wallis, Dr Jamie Garnier, Mark Levy, Ian Richardson, Angela Warburton, David Ghani, Ms Nusrat Lewer, Andrew Roberts, Rob Warman, Matt Gibson, Peter Lewis, rh Brandon Robertson, Mr Laurence Watling, Giles Gideon, Jo Lewis, rh Dr Julian Robinson, Mary Webb, Suzanne Gillan, rh Dame Cheryl Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Rosindell, Andrew Whately, Helen Glen, John Loder, Chris Rowley, Lee Wheeler, Mrs Heather Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Logan, Mark Russell, Dean Whittaker, Craig Gove, rh Michael Longhi, Marco Rutley, David Whittingdale, rh Mr John Graham, Richard Lopez, Julia Sambrook, Gary Wiggin, Bill Grant, Mrs Helen Lopresti, Jack Saxby, Selaine Wild, James Gray, James Lord, Mr Jonathan Scully, Paul Williams, Craig Grayling, rh Chris Loughton, Tim Seely, Bob Williamson, rh Gavin Green, Chris Mackinlay, Craig Selous, Andrew Wood, Mike Green, rh Damian Mackrory, Cherilyn Shapps, rh Grant Wragg, Mr William Griffith, Andrew Maclean, Rachel Sharma, rh Alok Wright, rh Jeremy Griffiths, Kate Mak, Alan Shelbrooke, rh Alec Young, Jacob Grundy, James Malthouse, Kit Simmonds, David Zahawi, Nadhim Gullis, Jonathan Mangnall, Anthony Skidmore, rh Chris Halfon, rh Robert Mann, Scott Smith, Chloe Tellers for the Noes: Hall, Luke Marson, Julie Smith, Greg David T. C. Davies and Hammond, Stephen May, rh Mrs Theresa Smith, Henry Tom Pursglove Hancock, rh Matt Mayhew, Jerome Hands, rh Greg Maynard, Paul Question accordingly negatived. Harper, rh Mr Mark McCartney, Karl Harris, Rebecca McPartland, Stephen The list of Members currently certified as eligible for a Hart, Sally-Ann McVey, rh Esther proxy vote, and of the Members nominated as their Hart, rh Simon Menzies, Mark proxy, is published at the end of today’s debates. Hayes, rh Sir John Mercer, Johnny Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 31(2)), Heald, rh Sir Oliver Merriman, Huw That the proposed words be there added. Heappey, James Metcalfe, Stephen Question agreed to. Heaton-Harris, Chris Millar, Robin Main Question, as amended, put and agreed to (Standing Henderson, Gordon Miller, rh Mrs Maria Order No. 31(2)). Henry, Darren Milling, rh Amanda Resolved, Higginbotham, Antony Mills, Nigel That this House notes the consistently high performance of Hinds, rh Damian Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew local contact tracing systems working in conjunction with NHS Hoare, Simon Mohindra, Mr Gagan Test and Trace; welcomes the huge expansion of testing to a 487 14 OCTOBER 2020 488

[Mr Deputy Speaker] Electricity Generation: Local Suppliers capacity of over 340,000 tests a day; applauds the efforts of all Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House involved in testing and contact tracing both at a national and do now adjourn.—(Maria Caulfield.) local level; recognises that 650,000 people have now been asked to isolate thanks to the work of NHS Test and Trace, and supports 7.15 pm the Government’s efforts to expand testing and tracing yet further. Ben Lake (Ceredigion) (PC): I am grateful for the Business without Debate opportunity to open this Adjournment debate on an issue that I know is of great importance to not only DELEGATED LEGISLATION communities in Ceredigion, but, as is evidenced by the Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing attendance of hon. Members in the Chamber this evening, Order No. 118(6)), communities across these islands. We face many pressing challenges as a society: the PENSIONS health and economic consequences of the covid-19 That the Pension Protection Fund (Moratorium and Arrangements pandemic have been debated today, but just as pressing and Reconstructions for Companies in Financial Difficulty) are the devastating impacts of climate change. If we are (Amendment and Revocation) Regulations (S.I., 2020, No. 990), to meet these challenges and, ultimately, emerge stronger, dated 14 September 2020, a copy of which was laid before this more secure and more prosperous, it is vital that we House on 15 September, be approved.— (Maria Caulfield.) transition rapidly to a society powered by energy generated Question agreed to. from renewable sources. The Committee on Climate Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Change has been clear that the UK is off track to achieve Order No. 118(6)), our commitment to net-zero greenhouse gas emissions and meet our obligations under the Paris climate agreement. IMMIGRATION At present, renewable electricity generation accounts ThatthedraftImmigrationSkillsCharge(Amendment)Regulations for only 11% of all UK energy use, and our transport 2020, which were laid before this House on 10 September, be and heating networks need to be electrified to decarbonise approved.— (Maria Caulfield.) our economy. If we were successful in doing this, new Question agreed to. policies and regulations would be needed to ensure that the resulting rise in electricity demand was met by PETITION renewable generation. Support for the travel industry There is good news: villages, towns and cities across the land possess incredible potential for community 7.14 pm renewable energy projects, such as solar arrays in fields, Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP): I rise wind turbines, and hydro units in rivers. Such schemes on behalf of my constituents who work in the travel, support local skilled jobs and offer local economic aviation, aerospace and tourism sectors, and who are opportunities. rightly worried about their livelihoods and the lack of targeted action to date by the UK Government. Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): Does my hon. Friend agree that to fully realise our local The petition states: energy-generating potential we must invest in grid- The petition of the residents of the constituency of Kilmarnock integrated, locally situated batteries? They will smooth and Loudoun, out the problems that hamper the grid supply in so Declares that the economic consequences of the Coronavirus many of our rural communities. pandemic have had a devastating effect on the travel and tourism sector; notes that, normally, outbound and inbound travel is estimated to generate approximately £65 billion to the UK economy; Ben Lake: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for further notes that an estimated 12,000 jobs are already lost and making that point. She anticipates a few of the arguments approximately a further 75,000 jobs could be at risk; further I wish to make this evening, but she is right to emphasise declares that no more operators should be pushed to bankruptcy; the role that batteries and improving storage will play in and further declares that any work by the Secretary of State for the future. If we are to balance local generation and Transport to support the travel industry should be in coordination local demand, being able to store a lot of this renewable with the #SaveTravel Campaign organised by Trade Travel Gazette. energy will be key.These local, community-owned renewable The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons energy projects support local skilled jobs and offer local urge the Government to immediately bring forward additional measures to support the travel industry, including the aviation economic opportunities, which will be very welcome in sector, coach companies and travel booking agencies. the face of the covid-19 pandemic’s impact on so many And the petitioners remain, etc. of our communities. [P002609] Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD): Bath and North East Somerset Council is working closely with Bath and West Community Energy, and such partnerships are incredibly important for getting local buy-in. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that in order to get that local buy-in, this really has to work financially as well for the people?

Ben Lake: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for making that point. She rightly says that this has to be viable for these community schemes and partnerships if they are 489 Electricity Generation: Local 14 OCTOBER 2020 Electricity Generation: Local 490 Suppliers Suppliers to fully realise the potential that so many of these schemes of lithium in our Cornish tin mines? We will be able to possess. I have put on record details of one local energy use that Cornish lithium to build the battery technology partnership in Cardigan in my constituency that I know that he describes. is trying to grapple with some of these challenges. Ben Lake: I am grateful for that point, because one of Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the the heartening news developments of recent weeks has hon. Gentleman on securing this debate. I agree with been about the lithium in Cornwall. It is clear that those his comments about community groups and the opportunity deposits will be crucial if we are to make this transition. here. Does he agree that the monopolies of service The question that arises from the shift that I described provision by greater companies must be brought to an is whether a system with potentially millions of moving end, as we see many local people who are attempting to parts could be managed in a centralised way even if we expand business being precluded from doing so by wanted it to be. I believe that local generation to meet legislation that seems to be put in place only to frustrate, local demand offers a possible answer. rather than to allow for competitive provision? Olivia Blake (Sheffield, Hallam) (Lab): I congratulate Ben Lake: The hon. Gentleman has got to the nub of the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate, which is of the issue and has anticipated the main thrust of my the utmost importance. Does he agree that fantastic argument. At present, the regulations and the way in community projects such as Sheffield Renewables should which legislation has been structured may be outdated be better supported by the Government to provide local and disadvantage some of the smaller generation schemes. renewable energy,and that that support should be enhanced His point will be key if we are truly to capitalise on the as we try to tackle the climate emergency? potential that the smaller projects possess. Ben Lake: The hon. Lady’s point is an important one: we need to make sure that community schemes are Ben Everitt (Milton Keynes North) (Con): What are supported. It also anticipates where I want to take my the hon. Gentleman’s thoughts on partnering with local speech next, so I am doubly grateful. authorities, at whatever tier? He mentions community projects at village level, but what about town councils? I The potential capacity of local community-owned am thinking specifically of Newport Pagnell Town Council, energy is quite astounding. A 2014 UK Government which is very keen to get involved in such initiatives. report stated that community energy projects could contribute as much as 3,000 MW of electricity generation capacity by 2020. Unfortunately, we have not quite met Ben Lake: The hon. Gentleman makes a very valid that target, but the potential is striking nevertheless. point. We must not think that community-owned projects are necessarily just at parish council level; towns and That potential is frustrated by the antiquated rules municipalities can also play a part. If we make any that govern our energy markets, which were designed changes, we will do well to ensure that we better empower primarily in the 1990s and were suited to a different such projects, because I believe that they will be key in system of large power stations and a handful of utility moving to a decarbonised economy. companies. Unfortunately, those rules still rule the roost, and they create insurmountable cost barriers to any community energy initiative that wishes to sell the electricity Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab): I it generates directly to local households and businesses. concur with the point made by the hon. Member for Milton Keynes North (Ben Everitt); Warwick District A report by the Institute for Public Policy Research Council is similarly interested. Does the hon. Member shows that the technical and operational challenges for Ceredigion (Ben Lake) agree that we have to ensure involved in becoming licensed to supply energy to customers that local authorities can develop projects through the lead to initial costs exceeding £1 million. There have planning system, work with grid operators and start been attempts to address that. A few years ago, Ofgem generating at scale in the immediate area? launched Licence Lite, which was aimed at creating a less onerous set of supply licence conditions for specific types of new, innovative supply business models. Ben Lake: The hon. Gentleman makes a very good Unfortunately, that has proved complex and has not point. As is often the case, if we are to transition as been well used to date. To its credit, Ofgem has also rapidly as is necessary, we will need to bring together so launched an expanded Sandbox service to allow innovative many aspects of regulation and different Departments. companies to apply for derogations from the traditional A lot of the points made by hon. Members touch on licensing regime and stipulations, and it has extended its the fact that since the 1990s we have seen a transition in ability to grant those derogations to certain local generators. how energy and electricity have been generated and However, the most effective solution would be to transmitted across the country. It will need to change introduce greater proportionality to the licensing system, even further, of course; we are moving from an electricity to ensure that the costs and complexities of being system that consists of a small number of quite large a licensed electricity generator are proportionate to the power plants, serving a passive operation, to one with scale of its supply. If the costs are proportionate, it potentially thousands, if not millions, of smaller generators becomes financially viable for smaller-scale renewable with storage and active demand, complementing huge generators to supply electricity, and, in turn, new numbers of large-scale renewables. community-owned schemes would become viable.

Scott Mann (North Cornwall) (Con): Does the hon. Paul Howell (Sedgefield) (Con): The hon. Member Gentleman agree that Cornwall has a vital role to play may be aware that I co-chair the all-party parliamentary in battery storage technology, with our recent discovery group for left-behind neighbourhoods, and there are 491 Electricity Generation: Local 14 OCTOBER 2020 Electricity Generation: Local 492 Suppliers Suppliers [Paul Howell] for a new form of supplier licence designated for local supply. In advance of the debate, I have been contacted many opportunities for this in those communities. In by Members from all political parties who are supportive my constituency, for example, there is heat from mine of such measures but who unfortunately were not workings. Does he agree that these sorts of innovation able to attend. They include the hon. Members for can come through this channel much better than others? Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson) and for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake), my hon. Friend the Member for Ben Lake: I am grateful for the hon. Member’s Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards), intervention. He makes a key point: the transition to a and the hon. Members for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Angus decarbonised economy also has a lot of benefits in Brendan MacNeil), for Blaydon (Liz Twist) and for terms of economic development in areas such as his and Glasgow East (David Linden), to name but a few. There mine, which have been left behind. This offers so many are, as I say, 210 in total. opportunities, and we would do well to make more of A right to local supply would help support local them. energy businesses to create jobs by selling energy to local customers and retain significant additional value. Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP): I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way; he is being very generous (Angus) (SNP): I do not want to anticipate with his time. As we hear from the interventions, there where the hon. Gentleman is going with this list, but are local groups and bodies around the country that are one of the key opportunities that a right to local supply desperate to have these opportunities. Community would present to our communities right across these Council in my constituency, which is a very concentrated islands is to allow for more entrepreneurial councils to urban area, is keen to find out how it can innovate and generate electricity locally for communities, as the chief use the abilities being proposed. executive of Angus Council has suggested. Does he agree with that ambition? Ben Lake: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for making that point. He is right: there is so much potential across these islands. We just need to sort out some of Ben Lake: I do agree. The opportunities are many, the obstacles that are currently faced. and if we were able to address some of the regulatory barriers, it would be a win-win for all involved. Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con): I thank the hon. To draw my remarks to a conclusion—Mr Deputy Member for securing the debate. He refers to the obstacles. Speaker, you have been very patient, and I am grateful Does he agree that one way to overcome those obstacles for it—if we were to introduce a right to local supply, it is for the ten-minute rule Bill that I presented in the would help local energy businesses and municipalities, summer, which is due to have its Second Reading on as was mentioned, it would retain a significant amount 29 January next year, to be passed into statute, whether of additional value in local communities and it would through the private Member’sBill route or the Government inject much-needed resilience. adopting it? Simon Baynes (Clwyd South) (Con): On that particular Ben Lake: I thank the hon. Member, who has done point about additional value to local communities, in incredible work in bringing forward that ten-minute my constituency the Corwen hydroelectric project is part rule Bill, which has the support of a great number of of a wider series of community efforts. The benefit of Members on both sides of the House. I very much want what the hon. Gentleman is proposing is that it would to put my support for that Bill on record, and I hope not only help the hydroelectric project, but would incentivise that if it does not progress as a private Member’s Bill, wider activities within the community as well. the Government will look to adopt its provisions.

Wendy Chamberlain (North East Fife) (LD): Members Ben Lake: I fully agree with the hon. Gentleman, have talked about left-behind communities and the real because there would be a range of benefits. We would desire for many communities to get involved. I want to have greater public support for the transition to sustainable mention those who are left out and how important it is energy forms, we would improve equality, and we would that the community energy sector is inclusive. Right have nature friendly renewable energy generation. Obviously now, 4% of practitioners in the sector are black, Asian just as important is that we would have a secure energy and minority ethnic. Will the hon. Member join me in supply less dependent on imports, let alone a more paying tribute to the organisation Power for People, effective energy system that would perhaps see consumers’ which is working to ensure that it represents those energy bills decrease as well. groups that are currently under-represented in the sector? I hope the Government consider establishing a right to local supply and specifically the workable mechanism Ben Lake: I am grateful to the hon. Member for that for it laid out in the ten-minute rule Bill of the hon. intervention, and it gives me the opportunity to place Member for Waveney, which as I said earlier is supported on record my gratitude to Power for People. This debate by more than 200 Members of this House. I am sure probably would not be taking place tonight if it was not that together we can enshrine this right to local supply for the support and leadership that Power for People in law and make the most of the many opportunities has shown in recent weeks, so I am pleased to put that that it offers. gratitude on record. The ten-minute rule Bill proposed by the hon. Member Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): The number of for Waveney (Peter Aldous) would allow electricity interventions might be a record. Congratulations. I call generators to become local electricity suppliers by applying the Minister. 493 Electricity Generation: Local 14 OCTOBER 2020 Electricity Generation: Local 494 Suppliers Suppliers 7.32 pm provision through this licence to have local provision. Electricity suppliers can apply to Ofgem for a derogation The Minister for Business, Energy and Clean Growth from a particular provision of the supply licence, and if (Kwasi Kwarteng): Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker; it is granted, provisions of the supply licence will not I was going to make very much the same point. I apply to them. There is already some degree of flexibility. congratulate the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Ben Lake) on securing today’s debate, and I will make the Olivia Blake: Will the Minister give way? same point: I have never seen an Adjournment debate with so many interventions. They were all extremely Kwasi Kwarteng: No, I am afraid I am very hard gracefully and graciously accommodated in his speech, pressed for time. I may have time later to take an so many congratulations to him. intervention, but I need to press on with my remarks. The hon. Member has spoken eloquently about the Ofgem, as I have suggested, has been consulting need for local communities to be able to supply electricity, widely on how to use such facilities more effectively to and I think there are strong arguments in its favour. I bring innovation to the specified locality, as it were, in know that similar views have been expressed to me and this retail market. I understand that the consultation the Department by many Members. I am fully aware closed on Monday 12 October,and I hope that small-scale that my hon. Friend the Member for Waveney (Peter generators who wish to supply local communities have Aldous) has also done his bit to try to drive the issue of responded fully to the consultation. local supply up the agenda. The hon. Member for Ceredigion mentioned, very I know that the hon. Member for Ceredigion supports ably and relevantly, the Licence Lite provision, which a campaign for electricity generators to sell directly to allows aspiring suppliers or local generators to apply local consumers, for all the benefits he suggested in for a supply licence and receive relief from compliance terms of local employment. I think he or one of the with industry codes.On existing mechanisms,the Electricity many intervenors used the phrase “local buy-in”, and Act 1989 already allows the Secretary of State to exempt, those arguments are fully appreciated. by scale, electricity suppliers from having an electricity In my remarks today, I will address the matter in supply licence if they meet certain conditions. There quite a technical way and give the specific reasons why have been examples, certainly in my tenure as Energy we as a Government feel that this particular provision is Minister, of people successfully applying for exemptions. not something that we would adopt, but I suggest to Being an electricity supplier, as I am sure the hon. him that local community participation has to be on the Gentleman knows, confers the right of the licensee to agenda. It is certainly something that I as the Energy supply electricity to customers, but it also bestows Minister will be willing to engage with and have a certain obligations, and that is very important to remember. discussion about. Those obligations include payment of a proportion of With regard to the licensing—we will talk a little bit network costs. Clearly, if one is operating in a situation about that—changing the licensing framework to suit where one is not a licensee, then one can avoid paying the business models identified by his campaign appears the costs on which the whole system depends. That is a attractive, but the danger—and we always have to be critical issue. In some instances, the Licence Lite regime mindful of dangers in government—is that it would can remove this burden, but clearly we would not want create wider distortions elsewhere in the energy system. to go down a route where large numbers of suppliers I will talk to those directly.Instead of the hon. Gentleman’s are simply exempting themselves from those obligations. proposal, I would urge stakeholders and hon. and right Network charges, as people will understand, are levied hon. Members across the House to engage with the on all users of the network, and they send signals that ongoing work that the Government are undertaking reflect the costs that users impose on the network. with Ofgem to support flexibility and innovation more There are a range of signals to encourage generators to generally. Then perhaps we can come to a view about locate close to sources of demand, and placing a source how the local element can play its part in the solution. of generation close to areas of high demand will mean that the generator gets paid credits for helping to avoid Wera Hobhouse: Is the Minister not aware that the further investment in the high-voltage transmission network. main problem is the lack of a level playing field? Basically, Essentially, that means suppliers are incentivised to be the smaller providers cannot compete with the bigger in areas of high demand. There will be a commensurate providers, and therefore we need this change. problem in areas of low demand, because how would they attract the relevant suppliers? Ofgem is working to Kwasi Kwarteng: I am fully aware of that, and I will reform these signals through improvements to network come on to it. I have only 10 minutes, so I ask the hon. charges, and it is also working to develop local markets Lady to bear with me; I will address that point later in for flexibility, which goes to the core of what I think the my remarks. hon. Gentleman is talking about. Electricity and gas supply licences, as I am sure I do not believe—and I think the Government, thankfully, everybody in the Chamber knows, are usually granted on are of the same opinion—that artificially reducing network a Great Britain-wide basis. However, Ofgem has powers costs for local electricity suppliers is going to be highly to award supply licences for specified areas and specified efficient, because it could distort the market. One is types of premises, and that can allow licensees, once essentially incentivising a behaviour that may not be they have the licence, to specialise and offer more targeted economical in the first instance, and that would mean and potentially innovative products and services. The higher costs falling on other consumers, which would holder of such a licence could supply customers only in increase as more local suppliers were subsidised. Creating a the specified geographical area and specified types of special category of local supplier brings its own complexities, premises, with the full terms and conditions of the and there may well be unintended consequences as licence applying otherwise. That means that there is already a result. 495 Electricity Generation: Local 14 OCTOBER 2020 Electricity Generation: Local 496 Suppliers Suppliers [Kwasi Kwarteng] been demonstrated this evening—how best can we work with the Minister to carry through any opportunities Having said that, I commend the hon. Gentleman for that are identified as necessary? thinking very deeply and creatively about this issue. This is part of an ongoing conversation. He was quite Kwasi Kwarteng: Well, a very good start is a debate right to say at the beginning of his remarks that a lot of such as this. It has been a real eye-opener for me. I am the structures that we have today reflect the conditions delighted to see so much interest. I would suggest that and circumstances before we legislated for net zero, and people engage with the Department and engage with in many cases reflect conditions that operated 30 or me. I am very happy to discuss these issues, which are 40 years ago. There is an ongoing discussion to be had absolutely fundamental to the energy transition that the about how best to adapt our institutions to modern hon. Gentleman mentioned. As I said, this is part of an circumstances. ongoing conversation. I am hopeful that the energy White Paper will come hastily enough for my hon. Peter Aldous: My right hon. Friend has highlighted Friend the Member for Waveney. some of the challenges that the Government face. As we We have to focus on the flexibility of the whole have heard from Members around the Chamber, we system in terms of the current regulatory regime. If we have shown enormous potential for local community get that right, then we can bring the innovation and energy supply to play a full role in decarbonisation and perhaps some of the centralisation that the hon. Gentleman, the covid recovery. Will the Government be setting out and other hon. and right hon. Members, want to see. in the forthcoming energy White Paper how we fully The prospects are considerable. We could see innovation realise this potential and meet these challenges? When and growth. We could see cost reductions and, most can we expect to see that White Paper? fundamentally, carbon reductions. I think that with a co-operative spirit, we can get very far. The hon. Kwasi Kwarteng: My hon. Friend is straying into Gentleman’sactual proposal perhaps creates more problems ground that is not necessarily covered in this debate. I than it solves, but I am very willing to debate and am very hopeful that the energy White Paper will be discuss that with him on a subsequent occasion. published soon. I think the Secretary of State said in front of the Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy I thank the hon. Member for Ceredigion for raising Committee that it would be published in the autumn, this issue and thank all Members who participated in and we are still in the autumn, so I am hopeful that it this short but interesting debate. will come imminently. Question put and agreed to. Ben Lake: Should legislative changes be required—I 7.44 pm think there is support across the House for that, as has House adjourned. 497 14 OCTOBER 2020 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 498

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Kate Hollern (Blackburn) (Lab) Chris Elmore James Murray (Ealing North) (Lab/Co-op) Chris Elmore Adam Holloway (Gravesham) (Con) Maria (Paisley and Renfrewshire Patrick Grady Caulfield North) (SNP) Sir George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab) Chris Elmore John Nicolson (Ochil and South Perthshire) Patrick Grady Dr Neil Hudson (Penrith and The Border) Stuart Andrew (SNP) (Con) Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con) Rebecca Tom Hunt (Ipswich) (Con) Dehenna Harris Davison Brendan O’Hara (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Patrick Grady Imran Hussain (Bradford East) (Lab) Mohammad Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) Chris Elmore Yasin (Lab) (Barnsley Central) (Lab) Chris Elmore Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mr Ranil Jayawardena (North East Stuart Andrew Abena Oppong-Asare (Erith and Chris Elmore Hampshire) (Con) Thamesmead) (Lab) Dame (Kingston upon Hull Chris Elmore Kate Osamor (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op) Nadia North) (Lab) Whittome Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Melton) (Con) Stuart Andrew (East Renfrewshire) (SNP) Patrick Grady Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) Chris Elmore Mr Owen Paterson (North Shropshire) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Lab) Sir Mike Penning (Hemel Hempstead) (Con) Stuart Andrew Afzal Khan (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab) Chris Elmore Matthew Pennycook (Greenwich and Chris Elmore Sir Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con) Stuart Andrew Woolwich) (Lab) Mrs Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con) William Wragg Dr Dan Poulter (Central Suffolk and North Peter Aldous Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab) Kate Osborne Ipswich) (Con) Chris Law (Dundee West) (SNP) Patrick Grady Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab/Co- Chris Elmore op) Clive Lewis (Norwich South) (Lab) Lloyd Russell- Moyle Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab) Chris Elmore Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and Stuart Andrew Christina Rees (Neath) (Lab/Co-op) Chris Elmore West Somerset) (Con) Ellie Reeves (Lewisham West and Penge) Chris Elmore Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Lab) Mr Jonathan Lord (Woking) (Con) Stuart Andrew Selaine Saxby (North Devon) (Con) Stuart Andrew Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Patrick Grady Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con) Stuart Andrew Iar) (SNP) Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) (Lab) Chris Elmore Karl McCartney (Lincoln) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mr (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co- Chris Elmore Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab) Chris Elmore op) Stewart Malcolm McDonald (Glasgow Patrick Grady Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con) Stuart Andrew South) (SNP) (Edinburgh East) (SNP) Patrick Grady Stuart C. McDonald (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth Patrick Grady Tulip Siddiq (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab) Chris Elmore and Kirkintilloch East) (SNP) Chloe Smith (Norwich North) (Con) Stuart Andrew John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) Zarah Sultana Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Lab) Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab) Chris Elmore Anne McLaughlin (Glasgow North East) Patrick Grady Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con) Stuart Andrew (SNP) Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Wendy John McNally (Falkirk) (SNP) Patrick Grady Easter Ross) (LD) Chamberlain Khalid Mahmood (Birmingham, Perry Barr) Chris Elmore Sir Gary Streeter (South West Devon) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Lab) Mel Stride (Central Devon) (Con) Stuart Andrew Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/ Chris Elmore Co-op) Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP) Patrick Grady Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab) Chris Elmore Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op) Chris Elmore Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab) Kate Osborne Richard Thomson (Gordon) (SNP) Patrick Grady Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Hemsworth) (Lab) Dawn Butler Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Stuart Andrew Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab) Chris Elmore Thurrock) (Con) Dr Jamie Wallis (Bridgend) (Con) Stuart Andrew Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab) Chris Elmore Claudia Webbe (Leicester East) (Ind) Bell Ribeiro- Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con) Stuart Andrew Addy (Glasgow North West) Patrick Grady Dr (Central Ayrshire) Patrick Grady (SNP) (SNP) Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con) Stuart Andrew Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC) Liz Saville Roberts David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) Stuart Andrew (Con) (Perth and North Perthshire) Patrick Grady (SNP) Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab) Chris Elmore 129WH 14 OCTOBER 2020 ’s Oath and the 130WH Rule of Law That was the start of the Lord Chancellor’s first year Westminster Hall in office. It has been bookended this September by the resignation of the UK Government’sScottish Law Officer. Wednesday 14 October 2020 It will be recalled that the Advocate General resigned last month with a letter informing the Prime Minister that he found it increasingly difficult to reconcile his [DEREK TWIGG in the Chair] obligations as a Law Officer with the Government’s Lord Chancellor’s Oath and the policy intentions, and he is yet to be replaced. The Advocate General for Scotland tendered his Rule of Law resignation in the wake of the statement by the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland that the United Kingdom 9.30 am Internal Market Bill would Derek Twigg (in the Chair): May I remind hon. Members “break international lawin a very specific and limited way.”—[Official that there have been some changes to the normal practice, Report, 8 September 2020; Vol. 679, c. 509.] in order to support the new call list system and ensure Of course, that admission was elicited from him by the that social distancing requirements can be respected? hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Sir Robert Members should sanitise their microphones before they Neill). use them, using the cleaning materials provided, and In addition to the UK Internal Market Bill, we respect the one-way system around the room, which currently have two further Bills before Parliament that goes anti-clockwise. Members can only speak if they are unprecedented in legal terms. Both the Overseas are on the call list, and this applies even if debates are Operations (Service Personnel And Veterans) Bill and undersubscribed. Members cannot join the debate if the Covert Human Intelligence Sources (Criminal Conduct) they are not on the call list. Members are not expected Bill seek to create special classes of defendants in domestic to remain for the winding-up speeches. law in respect of whom the criminal law will not apply I also remind Members that there is less of an expectation as it does to you, Mr Twigg, or me. that they should remain for the next two speeches once We also have reviews pending in administrative law they have spoken; this is to help manage attendance in and human rights that would appear to threaten the Westminster Hall. Members may wish to stay beyond scope for British citizens to challenge unlawful actions their own speech, but they should be aware that in of this Government in court. Of course, part 5 of the doing so, they may prevent Members in seats in the Internal Market Bill already seeks to do that in respect Public Gallery from moving into the horseshoe. That of certain aspects of the Northern Ireland protocol. obviously will not be the case today, because we are not over-subscribed. There are concerns that the Internal Market Bill will undermine the Good Friday agreement. It certainly 9.31 am runs a coach and horses through the devolution settlement and makes a nonsense of promises made to Scottish (Edinburgh South West) (SNP): I beg voters during the 2014 independence referendum. to move, Last week, I spoke at a webinar organised to discuss That this House has considered the Lord Chancellor’s oath the implications of the Internal Market Bill for the rule and the rule of law. of law. It was organised by the International Bar It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Association’s Human Rights Institute. The webinar was Mr Twigg. attended by more than 1,000 lawyers from across these I should start by declaring an interest, as a non-practising islands, and a further 1,000 in the waiting room were member of the Scottish Bar, the Faculty of Advocates; unable to get in. Among the speakers who expressed as an honorary bencher of the Middle Temple; and as concern about the implications of the Bill for the rule of the lead petitioner in the case of Cherry v. Advocate law were not just lefty lawyers like me, but Baron General, in which connection I refer to my entry in the Howard—Michael Howard QC—a former leader of Register of Members’ Financial Interests. the Conservative and Unionist party and of Her Majesty’s The Lord Chancellor is required to make an oath that Opposition, who I do not think by any stretch of the no other member of the Cabinet is required to make, imagination could be described as a lefty lawyer. and it reads as follows: Therefore, the concerns that I am articulating today “I…do swear that in the office of Lord High Chancellor of are felt across the political spectrum. It was very noteworthy Great Britain I will respect the rule of law”. that during the seminar, Lord Neuberger, a former When the Lord Chancellor took office in July last year, President of the Supreme Court, expressed very grave he took that oath at the royal courts of justice. Yet the concerns about the implications of the Internal Market past year has not been a happy one for the United Bill for the rule of law. Such concerns, when expressed Kingdom Government in respect of the rule of law. by a former President of the United Kingdom Supreme In September last year, the Government suffered Court in such trenchant terms as have been widely defeat in the Supreme Court of Scotland and the Supreme reported, are of some significance. They reflect the huge Court of the United Kingdom, when the Prime Minister’s and widespread concern across these islands, expressed Prorogation of Parliament was ruled unlawful. Rather by the Law Societies and the Bars of Scotland and than a contrite response, what we saw was a combative England and Wales, about the Bill, but also about one, laced with denial. The fallout of those cases—the rhetoric employed by the and the Prime Miller case and my own case, and the first Miller Minister in respect of the legal profession. case—has led to repeated attacks on the legal profession At the beginning of September, the Home Secretary and the judiciary, and now to proposals to restrict the claimed that “activist lawyers”were frustrating the removal right of judicial review of Government action. of migrants from this country.Days later, an immigration 131WH Lord Chancellor’s Oath and the 14 OCTOBER 2020 Lord Chancellor’s Oath and the 132WH Rule of Law Rule of Law [Joanna Cherry] of law. I would accordingly, and again with great respect, ask each of you to eschew such unhelpful language, and to recognise that solicitor was the subject of a violent racist attack at a challenges to the executive are a necessary part of our democracy. London law firm, and the Law Society of England and Anything less would be a confession that we no longer live in a democracy.” Wales wrote to the Home Secretary, warning her that inflammatory rhetoric has consequences. Nevertheless, That letter was signed by Roddy Dunlop QC, dean of the Home Secretary has doubled down on her rhetoric, the Faculty of Advocates. As he is an old friend of and she has been joined in it by the Prime Minister. mine, I can assure Members that he is not, unlike me, a lefty lawyer. He is simply somebody who cares about At the Conservative party conference, the Home the rule of law. Secretary criticised people who make As I look around, I realise there are many lawyers “endless legal claims to remain” attending this debate. I do not need to take up too much in respect of asylum cases, and in the same speech she time by defining what the rule of law is. The great referenced those who English jurist, Lord Bingham, set it out finely in his “lecture us on their grand theories about human rights”, eight principles of the rule of law. It is worth reminding as well as referencing do-gooders and lefty lawyers. The ourselves, in relation to the Internal Market Bill, that Prime Minister, in his conference speech the next day, the eighth of Lord Bingham’s principles is that the state reiterated the sentiment, saying that the Government must comply with its obligations in international law, as were in national law. “changing the law…and stopping the whole criminal The responsibilities of the Lord Chancellor for the justice system from being hamstrung by what the Home rule of law were set out very well in our December 2014 Secretary would doubtless and rightly” report from the House of Lords Constitution Committee: says the Prime Minister “The rule of law is a fundamental tenet of the United Kingdom constitution. In the context of the Government, it means more “call the lefty human rights lawyers and other do-gooders.” than simple compliance with the letter of the law: it means The leader of the Scottish Bar, the dean of the governing in accordance with constitutional principles. The Lord Faculty of Advocates, was so concerned about the Chancellor has traditionally had a key role to play, both by comments that he has written what I would call an defending the independence of the judiciary and by ensuring that unprecedented letter to the Prime Minister in which he the rule of law is respected within Government. The Constitutional Reform Act 2005 substantially changed the office of Lord Chancellor.” has expressed grave concerns on behalf of the whole Scottish Bar. I would like to read it out, because it is a He short but powerful letter. It starts as follows: “is no longer the head of the judiciary or speaker of the House of Lords, and since 2007 the office has been combined with that of “Dear Prime Minister the Secretary of State for Justice. Yet the duty of the Lord As I hope you know, the Faculty of Advocates represents the Chancellor in relation to the rule of law remains unchanged. This Scottish Bar. All Advocates qualified to practise before the Scottish duty extends beyond the work of the Ministry of Justice and Courts are Members of Faculty. All are bound by the cab rank requires the Lord Chancellor to ensure that the rule of law is rule.” upheld within Cabinet and across Government.” He explains that the cab rank rule means that advocates The Committee also emphasised that the Lord Chancellor must be available for instruction by all and cannot pick has traditionally performed an important oversight role and choose their clients. He goes on to say: in relation to the United Kingdom constitution as a “Against that backdrop, I require to intimate, as Dean of whole. I would argue that that is highly relevant to the Faculty and on behalf of all Members of Faculty, that I deprecate implications for Northern Ireland and for Scotland’s the recent pronouncements—from the Home Office, then from place in the Union, which arise from the Internal the Home Secretary,and latterly from the Prime Minister himself—to Market Bill. the effect that there is a problem with ‘lefty lawyers’ or ‘activist lawyers’ who are ‘hamstringing’ the justice system. Whether the The Committee heard evidence from Lord Falconer, topic is immigration, or crime, or the constitution, lawyers that who was very much involved in reforms that took place act against the State are not being ‘lefty’, nor ‘activist’: they are under the previous Labour Government. His evidence doing their professional duty. It is simply unconscionable for Her stated that the Lord Chancellor had a “special role” to Majesty’sGovernment to decry in this way the actions of professionals protect the rule of law, and that to think otherwise was who, as the comments of Lord President Inglis” “to undermine what the Constitutional Reform Act had sought in the famous case of Batchelor v. Pattison and Mackersy to do.” “make clear, are not at liberty” In summary, the Lord Chancellor’s duty to respect the to pick and choose their clients. The dean of faculty rule of law extends beyond the policy remit of his or her goes on to say: Department and requires him or her to seek to ensure “In this country”— that the rule of law is upheld within the Cabinet and by which I presume he means Scotland, but I think he across the Government. My purpose in holding this would also apply it to the whole of the United Kingdom— debate today is to draw attention to the very real threats to the rule of law currently posed by the actions of this “(and the same cannot be said of all countries), instances of violence against lawyers are, fortunately, rare. However, in a Government and to ask the Lord Chancellor, having climate of increasing populism, this sort of rhetoric is not only regard to his oath, what he intends to do about them. facile and offensive: it is potentially harmful. With great power There has been trenchant criticism from various quarters, comes great responsibility, and I have to say” fully rehearsed in debates in this House, about the legal says the dean of faculty implications of part 5 of the Internal Market Bill. For “—with great respect—that I simply cannot fathom why it is example, the Bar Council and the Law Society of England thought in any way appropriate to attempt to vilify, in public, and Wales have said that the clauses contained in part 5 those that are simply doing their job, in accordance with the rule of the Bill, 133WH Lord Chancellor’s Oath and the 14 OCTOBER 2020 Lord Chancellor’s Oath and the 134WH Rule of Law Rule of Law “enable ministers to derogate from the United Kingdom’sobligations at the impact of what is now clause 47 of the Internal under international law in broad and comprehensive terms and Market Bill on the supervisory jurisdiction of the Court prohibit public bodies from compliance with such obligations. of Session in Scotland. It is also a point that may be of They represent a direct challenge to the rule of law, which include some relevance should the Scottish Government carry the country’s obligations under public international law”. out their threat to litigate over the terms of the Internal As we have heard, that is why the Advocate General for Market Bill. Scotland tendered his resignation. The hon. Member for Stone (Sir William Cash) with The Attorney General for England and Wales has whom I have in common a great respect for attempted to justify her support for the Internal Market Lord Bingham—although otherwise, in relation to many Bill by reference to the legal doctrine of the supremacy matters of law, we rather part ways—has been peddling of Parliament and the judgment of the UK Supreme a line in Parliament that there is a history, albeit a Court in the first case brought by Gina Miller on the limited one, of Acts of Parliament that have broken circumstances surrounding the triggering of article 50. international law. I was pleased to hear Lord Sumption In that case, the Supreme Court held that, to be binding say trenchantly in a recent interview on “World at One” in domestic law, treaty obligations require to be enshrined that that argument is “absurd” because it ignores the in an Act of Parliament, but it also held that treaties fact that sovereign states such as the United Kingdom between sovereign states, such as the withdrawal agreement, can limit their freedom of action by treaty and frequently have effect in international law and are not governed by do, just as the Prime Minister did last year when he the domestic law of any state. It was clear that such signed the withdrawal agreement. Lord Sumption stressed treaties are binding on the UK under international law. that there is no right to pull out of a treaty unless the I believe that the Attorney General has selectively quoted treaty itself enables a party to do so. A party to a treaty the case in order to justify her view of the Internal cannot disregard parts of it at will. That is a matter of Market Bill. I want to know whether the Lord Chancellor international law. agrees with me that a proper reading of the case makes a clear distinction between the domestic law and the There is also a potential problem, and I would like doctrine of supremacy of Parliament, and the United the Lord Chancellor and his representative here today Kingdom’s international legal obligations. to address the problem of the ministerial code. Again, I will not say what I think about the ministerial code; What I am talking about was made very clear when I will say what the former deputy Prime Minister, Professor Catherine Barnard, who is the professor of Sir David Lidington, said in a letter to The Times last European Union law at the University of , month. He said: gave evidence recently to the Committee on the Future Relationship with the European Union. She was crystal “Sir, My old friend Sir Bernard Jenkin is mistaken in believing that revisions to the ministerial code in 2015 removed the duty to clear that while the United Kingdom Parliament may comply with the UK’s international legal obligations. My clear be sovereign under domestic law that does not impact understanding as a serving minister at that time was that international on the rules of international law, and articles 26 and 27 law continued to be covered by the general duty placed on of the Vienna convention mean that in international ministers to uphold the law. lawinternational legal obligations takeprecedence.Professor In 2018 a campaign group sued the May government…alleging Barnard also explained that there is a strong argument that the 2015 change meant that we had abandoned our international that the very existence of the Bill itself puts the United legal responsibilities. The Court of Appeal found their case to be Kingdom in breach of its duty of good faith under ‘unsustainable’ and ruled that a minister’s ‘overarching’ duty to article 5 of the withdrawal agreement. comply with the law included international law and treaty obligations even though those were no longer explicitly stated in the code.” I emphasise that because I have no doubt that it will be argued later today that the Government amendments The Lord Chancellor’sMinister will know that Sir David prompted by the action of the hon. Member for Bromley was referring to the Gulf case. What I want to know is: and Chislehurst cure any problems that part 5 of the does the Lord Chancellor’s Department accept that Internal Market Bill poses for our international legal Sir David Lidington was correctly stating the law? If so, obligations. I shall argue that that is wrong for a number what does the Lord Chancellor make of his duties of reasons, one of which is the argument outlined by under the ministerial code in relation to a Bill of this Professor Barnard that the very existence of the Bill, Parliament, the very existence of which is, according to evincing an intention unilaterally to breach an agreement Professor Catherine Barnard, a breach of international freely entered into less than a year ago, is in itself a law? breach of the withdrawal agreement and our duty of The Lord Chancellor has endeavoured in the public good faith under it. domain to justify the fact that he has not, unlike the I know that many cheerleaders for the Bill in Parliament Advocate General for Scotland, resigned as a result of have been keen to emphasise section 38 of the European the Bill. He told Sky News last month that he would resign if the Government broke international law “in a Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020, which restated … the principle of the sovereignty of the Westminster way that cannot be fudged”. Parliament. Of course that doctrine is a doctrine of the Can the Minister explain to us whether the domestic law of England. It does not reflect the Scottish Lord Chancellor’s position is that the UK Government constitutional tradition, but that is perhaps an argument are already breaking international law, but he is happy for another day.However, it is worth mentioning, because with that because they are doing it in a way that can be this Parliament is a Union Parliament, created by a fudged? He also said that he will resign only if the treaty between two sovereign nations, Scotland and Government break the law in a way that is “unacceptable”. England. The United Kingdom is not a unitary state. It What is an acceptable way of breaking the law? I am is a state of two countries that came together to form a sure the thousands of ordinary members of the public Union. That fact is of relevance when we come to look who have been fined for breaking lockdown regulations, 135WH Lord Chancellor’s Oath and the 14 OCTOBER 2020 Lord Chancellor’s Oath and the 136WH Rule of Law Rule of Law [Joanna Cherry] Finally, I want to turn to look at the implications of the UK Internal Market Bill for the Union between while Mr Cummings did so with impunity, would like to Scotland and England and for the position of Northern know from the Lord Chancellor’s Department how he Ireland. In addressing the implications of the Bill for distinguishes between acceptable and unacceptable breaches Northern Ireland, I make no apologies for quoting of the law. again what the former Prime Minister said in her speech The Lord Chancellor has also tried to argue that the about the Bill in the Chamber. She said: amendments drafted by the Government and prompted “I believe that the Government’s willingness unilaterally to by the hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst mean abandon an international agreement or parts of an international that the powers now contained in part 5 of the Bill will agreement they have signed and their willingness to renege on an be used only if the European Union is in material agreement they have signed will lead, as has already been made clear in an intervention, to some questioning the willingness of breach of its obligations. He has described it as a the Government to fully uphold the measures in the Belfast/Good “‘break glass in case of emergency’ provision”.—[Official Report, Friday agreement. That, in turn, will lead to some communities 22 September 2020; Vol. 680, c. 783.] having less willingness to trust the United Kingdom Government, I would argue that there are a number of problems and that could have a consequence on the willingness of people in with that argument. First, there is the evidence of Northern Ireland to remain part of the United Kingdom. So far from acting to reinforce the integrity of the United Kingdom in Professor Catherine Barnard, who told us at the Committee pursuit of trying to appear to be tough to the European Union, I on the Future Relationship with the European Union think the Government are putting the integrity of the United that there is a strong argument that the very existence of Kingdom at risk.” —[Official Report, 21 September 2020; Vol. 680, the Bill is already a breaking of the obligation of good c. 666-667.] faith in the withdrawal agreement. Some of the other Those are the words of a former British Conservative arguments have been made well in a speech by our and Unionist Prime Minister, describing the implications former Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for of the Bill for the Good Friday agreement. Maidenhead (Mrs May), in the Commons just a few days ago. She said: There are also very concerning implications for “I recognise that my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and undertakings made in respect of human rights protections Chislehurst (Sir Robert Neill) has taken every effort to ameliorate in the north of Ireland from the British Government, the impact of these clauses,”— both in the Good Friday agreement and in the withdrawal she was referring to part 5— agreement. Once again, that is not just my view; it is the view of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission “and the Government have accepted and put down their own and the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland, amendment. But, frankly, my view is that to the outside world, it makes no difference whether a decision to break international law who have advised that the Bill undermines is taken by a Minister or by this Parliament; it is still a decision to “the Belfast (Good Friday) Agreement commitment to ensure break international law.”—[Official Report, 21 September 2020; incorporation of the ECHR, including access to the courts and Vol. 680, c. 667.] remedies for breach of the ECHR rights. The Commissions are We have seen very much from comments not just further concerned that the proposed amendments risk diminishing the commitment in Article 2(1) of the Ireland/Northern Ireland from the Irish Foreign Minister, who described the Protocol to ensure there is no diminution of rights, safeguards or amendments as “smoke and mirrors”, but also from equality of opportunity as the UK leaves the EU.” senior Democrat and Republican politicians in the United States of America, that what really matters is the It has been made clear in the Chamber by hon. Members international perception of the Bill. I think the former representing the Social Democratic and Labour party Prime Minister was trying to persuade her colleagues in and the Alliance party in the north of Ireland that Government that the amendments do not make any concerns about human rights implications of the Bill go difference to the international perception of what the right to the heart of the Good Friday agreement. Indeed, Bill seeks to do. litigation is already contemplated by a group of concerned Northern Ireland citizens, who have instructed solicitors The former Prime Minister also reminded us that an and counsel. arbitration process is set down in the withdrawal agreement. She said: I turn to the position of Scotland, which is of course a particular concern to me as the Member of Parliament “There is an arbitration process available. Under article 175, the ruling of the arbitration panel should be binding on the UK for Edinburgh South West and the Scottish National and the EU. The Government have acknowledged the existence of party’s justice and home affairs spokesperson. As well the arbitration procedure, but they are saying that they would as breaking international law, the powers that the UK enter into that in parallel with the operation of the elements of Government seek to give themselves in the Internal this Bill. The message, it seems to me, is very clear, which is, if we Market Bill constitute an unprecedented threat to the do not like the outcome of the arbitration panel, then we will powers of Scotland’s Parliament and the devolution break international law and we will not accept it. Yet, again, that settlement. Why is that relevant to the Lord Chancellor’s is breaking the international treaty—an agreement that UK oath to uphold the rule of law? It is relevant because—as Government signed—because it is breaking article 175, which says that the view of the arbitration panel shall be ‘binding’ on we saw from the House of Lords Constitution Committee both parties.”—[Official Report, 21 September 2020; Vol. 680, report—the Lord Chancellor also has an important role c. 666.] in protecting the constitution of the United Kingdom. Those are the words of the former Prime Minister of The constitution of the United Kingdom includes the the United Kingdom, the right hon. Member for devolved settlement. Maidenhead—not mine. In the light of this very Last weekend in Scotland we marked the distinguished criticism, I wonder how the Lord Chancellor 20th anniversary of the death of the distinguished can reconcile his support for the Bill with his oath of Labour party politician Donald Dewar,who was Scotland’s office. first ever First Minister under devolution. He was also 137WH Lord Chancellor’s Oath and the 14 OCTOBER 2020 Lord Chancellor’s Oath and the 138WH Rule of Law Rule of Law the architect of the scheme of devolution set out in the Wealso know,because of the Government’ssubsequent Scotland Act 1998 whereby every power not specifically actions, that the Sewel convention cannot protect the reserved to this Parliament is devolved to the Scottish devolved settlement. The Sewel convention says: Parliament. The Bill introduces—for the first time—a “Westminster would not normally legislate with regard to devolved new principle into the devolution settlement by providing matters…without the consent of the .”—[Official broad cross-cutting powers to allow Ministers to enforce Report, House of Lords, 21 July 1998; Vol. 592, c. 791.] internal market provisions across devolved fields. That Recently, however, that has been honoured more in the is not my analysis, I am reading from the analysis of breach than in the observance. Last week, the Scottish Professor Michael Keating of the Centre on Constitutional Parliament withheld legislative consent to the United Change. Kingdom Internal Market Bill, but nobody seriously Clause 50 reserves state aid to Westminster, after a thinks that the Bill will not proceed because of that. dispute in which the Welsh and Scottish Governments Indeed, the Institute for Government recently said argued that it had been devolved. Clause 48 gives UK that the Ministers wide powers to spend in devolved fields, which changes the previous assumption that they would “Sewel Convention has been broken by Brexit”, spend only in reserved fields and that—with a few but I would argue that the Bill breaks the devolution exceptions—financial transfers to the devolved settlement. That is important because, as I said, the administrations would go through the block allocation constitutional relationship—the constitution of the United governed by the Barnett formula. That succinct analysis Kingdom—is the responsibility of the Lord Chancellor. by Professor Michael Keating is the explanation of why The constitutional relationship between Scotland and the Bill undermines the devolved settlement. Holyrood England is about not just devolution but the Act of is not getting any new powers that it did not already Union, which continues because of promises made in have, but Westminster is getting back sole control over 2014 that are broken by the Bill. state aid, and—in order to enforce the internal market—UK Ministers are getting an explicit power to cut across I suggest that many people in Scotland have suspected decision-making by the Scottish Parliament in a whole for a long time that the British Government’s word is no range of devolved fields. longer their bond, and that perception is reinforced by the Bill. The problem for the Lord Chancellor is that It seems that what we are seeing, by virtue of those that perception is reinforced not just in Scotland, but provisions in the Bill, is a rebalancing of the constitutional across the world. In Europe, and as far as the United settlement as far as devolution is concerned, and a States of America, there are concerns about the implications tearing up of the clear delineation between reserved of the Bill for the rule of law. powers and devolved powers that was devised by the late Donald Dewar, and set out in the Scotland Act 1998. I have written to the Lord Chancellor about the That is important not just because it undermines the Scottish aspects of the Bill and have not yet received a devolved settlement, but it is also important from a reply. He is a busy man, but I am keen to know his wider constitutional perspective, because in 2014—when position. I, like many lawyers in Scotland, not all of people living in Scotland were asked whether they wanted whom, like myself, want to see an independent Scotland, to remain part of the United Kingdom or return to our but all of whom care about the independence of the previous status as an independent sovereign nation—various Scottish legal system, are concerned about the provisions promises were made by those urging us to remain part in part 5 of the Bill and their implications for the of the United Kingdom. One promise in particular was supervisory jurisdiction of the Court of Session and for that if we did so our Parliament would get more powers, judicial review. In Scotland, judicial review is part of we would be strengthened, and we would become—to our system of civil justice, which is a devolved matter quote another Labour politician— under the Scotland Act 1998 and therefore the preserve of the Scottish Parliament. “the most powerful devolved parliament in the world”. More importantly, in the constitutional and pre- These were not promises made just by Labour politicians, devolution context, the authority and privileges of the they were promises made Conservative and Unionist Court of Session, including its inherent supervisory politicians who, of course,are now the party of Government jurisdiction, are protected by article 19 of the treaty of in the United Kingdom. A further Scotland Act was Union between Scotland and England, which states: passed in 2016 that puts the Sewel convention on a “That the Court of Session, or College of Justice, do after the statutory basis, and entrenched the Scottish Parliament Union, and notwithstanding thereof, remain in all time coming against abolition. In terms of section 63A of the Scotland within Scotland, as it is now constituted by the laws of that Act it cannot be abolished without a referendum in kingdom, and with the same authority and privileges as before Scotland. The Internal Market Bill circumvents these the Union, subject nevertheless to such regulations for the better protections not by abolishing the Scottish Parliament, administration of justice, as shall be made by the Parliament of but by removing the power it previously had to act Great Britain”. unilaterally across a whole range of competencies that It is a widely held view that legislation that sought to impact on the day-to-day lives of people living in Scotland. narrow the scope of the Scottish Court’s powers of It is a very significant change, and some would say a judicial review and to curtail the right of judicial review complete and absolute undermining of the devolved could scarcely be described as for the better administration settlement voted for by 75% of the people in the 1997 of justice. Accordingly, should the United Kingdom referendum. Thanks to the decision in the United Kingdom Government seek to circumscribe the supervisory Supreme Court in the first Miller case, we now know jurisdiction of the Court of Session, they would be that the Sewel convention was not justiciable despite interfering with not only the devolved powers of the being put on a statutory footing. Scottish Parliament, but the treaty of Union. 139WH Lord Chancellor’s Oath and the 14 OCTOBER 2020 Lord Chancellor’s Oath and the 140WH Rule of Law Rule of Law [Joanna Cherry] both because of the oath and because of their obligation under section 17(1) of the 2005 Act to respect the rule I respectfully remind the Lord Chancellor, as I did in of law and defend the independence of the judiciary. my letter to him, that there is a large and respectable Ironically, the Blair Government in 2005 never actually body of legal opinion to the effect that some parts of defined the rule of law in the Act. The late Lord Bingham, the treaty of Union between Scotland and England, who has been much quoted already in this debate and including article 19, are so fundamental that the United probably will be again, noted that that was interesting Kingdom Parliament does not have the power to legislate and rather unusual, as it placed great reliance on a in contravention of them. That argument has been concept that was set out in statute but never defined. discussed in a number of cases, but never definitively That, he concluded, clearly was not an accident; it ruled on. If the intention is to restrict the right to was clearly because it was probably impossible, if not judicial review in Scotland, I would venture to suggest unhelpful, to find a pithy statutory definition that could that that might be the opportunity to get a court to be put in an Act of Parliament of something that has definitively answer the question about the entrenchment evolved over time. His conclusion in his admirable of fundamental parts of the treaty of Union. Of course, book, which I brought along this morning, is that it was the outcome of such a litigation could have knock-on desirable to leave the matter to be decided—as courts effects for the Union itself. might need to, from time to time—in the practical, To summarise, we need to see the United Kingdom rather than purely in the abstract, as issues arose. That, Internal Market Bill in relation to Scotland through the perhaps, is wise. prism not only of devolution, which is a modern That means that it was wrong for some in recent development, but of the treaty of Union between Scotland weeks, since the arrival of the United Kingdom Internal and England. Without a Scottish Law Officer in place, Market Bill, to make rather unjustified ad hominem this is an area in which the Lord Chancellor would be attacks on the current Lord Chancellor—first, on his well advised, I respectfully submit, to take more of an conduct throughout, and secondly,in making an assertion interest. that the rule of law is potentially breached. An assertion I do not want to take up any more time; I know that is, of course, no more than that, and a legal argument, other hon. Members want to speak. I finish by saying however distinguished, be it made by academic or legal that there is a pattern of the United Kingdom finding commentators, is no more than that either. I have ways to worm its way around laws and agreements known the Lord Chancellor for his whole professional freely entered into. Because of his oath to respect the career, and the reality is that he is absolutely rooted in rule of law, the Lord Chancellor is in a different class of his commitment to the rule of law and to the profession, Minister. What is he going to do about that pattern? as he made clear when he took his oath and repeatedly What is he going to do to honour his oath? On taking since. I will come to part 5 of the Bill in a moment, office, he spoke of his illustrious predecessors as about which my views are well known. However, I Lord Chancellor of England and drew a comic veil over believe and am satisfied that the Lord Chancellor has some of the less illustrious ones. I guess my question for acted diligently throughout all this to ensure that we the Lord Chancellor today is: does he want to be deal with a potentially difficult situation proportionately remembered as a Thomas More or a Richard Rich? and consistent with our obligations. Derek Twigg (in the Chair): I will call the hon. Members Since taking, the Lord Chancellor has also been clear for Bromley and Chislehurst (Sir Robert Neill), for in his support for the independence and integrity of the Aylesbury (Rob Butler) and for South Cambridgeshire judiciary. Not all his predecessors in recent years have (Anthony Browne), in that order. I would like to call the been; I say that frankly.There are people in all jurisdictions Opposition spokesperson, and then the Minister, at that we might wish to brush over, as the hon. and around 10.40 am, and to give the hon. and learned learned Member for Edinburgh South West put it. For Member for Edinburgh South West (Joanna Cherry) a every Lord Rich there is a Lord Braxfield, perhaps, and minute or two to respond at the end. others who we might not wish to dwell upon. The reality is that the Lord Chancellor and Secretary of 10.11 am State for Justice, my right hon. and learned Friend the Sir Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): It Member for South Swindon (Robert Buckland), has is a pleasure to see you in the Chair again, Mr Twigg, been meticulous in this. I welcome his clear commitment and to follow the hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh in his letter to the right hon. and learned Member for South West (Joanna Cherry). I have great respect for Camberwell and Peckham (Ms Harman), the Chair of her as a lawyer; we do not always agree in our political the Joint Committee on Human Rights, to the views, but I take seriously what she says on legal matters. Government’s continuing support for the provisions of I ought to mention my interests as a non-practising the European convention on human rights. He has been member of the English Bar, as a consultant to a law willing to be outspoken on that. firm and as a bencher of the Honourable Society of the Reference was made to the risk to the rule of law Middle Temple. I will start with the topic of the debate: being undermined by the Government’s proposals to the Lord Chancellor’s oath. The hon. and learned Lady examine the scope of judicial review. When I started my ranged widely in her speech, and I am sure she will law degree at the London School of Economics—which forgive me if I do not follow some particular matters was, I hate to say, in the early 1970s—judicial review that she understandably raised relating to the constitutional was a very new and evolving legal concept. There was settlement and devolution. little of it in those days. It grew, as many of us will The irony of this debate is that the Constitutional remember, through the Gouriet judgment, the Grunwick Reform Act 2005 does indeed place the Lord Chancellor case and so on, and perhaps rightly so. There has never in a different position from that of other Ministers, been a fixed corpus of law in this area, as there is in 141WH Lord Chancellor’s Oath and the 14 OCTOBER 2020 Lord Chancellor’s Oath and the 142WH Rule of Law Rule of Law others, such as jury trial. There is nothing wrong in his own personal integrity. I do not care for the use of that; the advantage of the common-law system is that it language such as “lefty lawyers” or the broadbrush can evolve. approach of saying that systems are being hijacked. No one would seriously saythat, prior to the development That is not language that I would use. However, I am a of the current system of judicial review in, let us say, the Member of Parliament; I am not a speech writer. 1970s through to the beginning of this century, Britain I gently observe that the hon. and learned Member was not a country that was subject to the rule of law. A for Edinburgh South West referred to the taxi rank willingness to review the way in which judicial review as principle at the Bar. That is something that I have a concept operates, and what are or are not the proper always worked under as well. To be fair, there have limits, cannot be regarded as an assault on the rule of always been sets of chambers that would not prosecute, law per se, on any objective basis. or would not act for landlords, for example. Some might ask whether that is in theory inconsistent with Joanna Cherry: I take that on board, but the difficulty the taxi rank rule. It probably is, yet it is not something is that the individual who has been put in charge of the that warrants a great deal of personal attack. I just review has evinced very strong criticisms of the Supreme make the observation that those matters cannot be seen Court’s decision in the prorogation cases and has also in a purely academic sense. I would not make too much evinced hostility to the European convention on human of that, but that is where I stand as far as that is rights, notwithstanding what the hon. Gentleman has concerned. It is pretty clear where the Lord Chancellor already said. There is a widespread perception in the stands, and where I suspect my hon. Friend the Minister legal profession that what is intended here is to circumscribe stands as well, as far as those matters are concerned. the rule of law, not just because Lord Faulks is the chair but because of the Government’s rhetoric. Surely the The other issue raised is part 5 of the United Kingdom hon. Gentleman must see that. Internal Market Bill, about which I was not a little critical when it was first introduced. I believe we have Sir Robert Neill: Lord Faulks is a fellow bencher of sought to improve that Bill. Is it perfect? As yet, that I the Middle Temple and a distinguished lawyer. That do not know. Would the use of the powers in part 5 be does not mean that one always has to agree with everything wise politics? That is a very big question mark. However, that he says. It would not be fair or reasonable to judge that is not the same as, say, that it is per se constitutionally somebody by past comments until we have seen the improper to put those clauses in the Bill, provided there results of the panel as a whole. Lord Faulks is the chair are appropriate safeguards. The hon. and learned Member of the panel, but there are other very distinguished for Edinburgh South West might disagree upon that, people on it as well. I respect what the hon. and learned but I think it is a legitimate area of legal dispute and the Lady says, but this is a classic case of not prejudging the Lord Chancellor is entitled to have a different view issue until we have seen the outcome of the deliberations. from her and, indeed, perhaps from me in that regard, without it being suggested that he has failed to uphold I am a great believer in judicial review, in appropriate his oath of office or his constitutional obligations. cases. Has it sometimes been abused? Many people would say that perhaps that can be the case. When I was I note the views, which have been referred to, of the junior Minister at the Department for Communities Professor Catherine Barnard. She is a distinguished and Local Government, I was critical of the attitude academic and her views are worthy of respect. By their adopted to some decisions by the then Secretary of nature, however, she not being a judge or legislator, and State, the noble Lord Pickles, is he is now, in relation to valuable and worthy of respect though they are, they the removal of regional spatial strategies. We were cannot be determinative of the point. It is one side of judicially reviewed by large commercial housebuilders, an argument that can properly be hooked. If, on those undoubtedly in pursuit of their own vested commercial matters, there were no scope for difference of opinion, interests. They sought to prevent our removing the no scope for difference of legal interpretation, no scope comparatively easy route, so they could impose large for legal argument, there would scarcely be any scope housing developments on communities that did not for litigation and scarcely any scope for lawyers at the want them. I was critical of those house builders for end of the day. It is perfectly possible for respectable doing that and for undermining in law the wishes of lawyers to hold different opinions around matters of local residents. The courts found that they were entitled this kind, particularly in emerging areas of law or to do it, but that does not mean that we were assaulting new legislation as it comes forward, without it being judicial review as a concept, simply by criticising the appropriate for us to say that either side is seeking motive behind some of the people who bring it. to undermine constitutional principles or their professional There is an important distinction, which I recognise. or governmental responsibilities. That is the proper We criticised the clients—the people who brought the way to look at the position, as far as that is concerned judicial review—but I did not criticise the lawyers who here. were instructed on their behalf. I would not seek to do I am glad to say, in response to some of the endeavours, so. It is important to say that we should not, whatever which I may have had a small hand in, the Government our views in politics, use political arguments to attack have made it clear that, effectively, they will only be lawyers generally or by taking broadbrush approaches. using those powers should they ever be needed. I hope The attacks upon the judges, which were not perhaps to heavens that they are never needed because we will called out as much as they should have been at the time get a deal, but should that be the case, there will be of the early Miller litigation, were wholly disgraceful certain triggers that would have to be met, both in and unacceptable. The current Lord Chancellor has procedural terms but also in terms of substance. In made it clear that he would not countenance such particular, we would only do so had the European attacks and such language without speaking out. That Union, in our judgment, demonstrated bad faith. Bad is very much to his credit and entirely consistent with faith is recognised in international treaty law and in the 143WH Lord Chancellor’s Oath and the 14 OCTOBER 2020 Lord Chancellor’s Oath and the 144WH Rule of Law Rule of Law [Sir Robert Neill] I am not a lawyer, let alone one with the esteemed reputation of other hon. or right hon. Members, nor Vienna convention as being a ground under which it is am I an academic steeped in the study of centuries of possible to derogate from an otherwise binding history or intricate international treaties. But for 12 years commitment. before I was elected, I served as a magistrate and for The fact that we will be using this as a shield rather about 18 months was the magistrate member of the than a sword is important—it is the doctrine of equitable Sentencing Council; consequently, I set great store by estoppel, in some respects. The Minister may well have the need to obey and respect the law. more to say about that, but that is an important shift I approach today’s debate as a layman, albeit one and one that I welcome. Therefore, the suggestion that with a firm idea of justice and a clear sense of right and the mere putting of those clauses on the face of the wrong, and I also do so with great respect for the legislation is itself a breach of law is not one that is seriousness of the matters being considered. The rule of universally accepted, and I do not think therefore that it law is a central tenet of the UK’s constitution. The can be regarded as an act of impropriety on the part of office of Lord Chancellor carries such prestige as an the Government or of any Minister. As I say, there is a officer of state that it comes higher than the Prime Minister proper political debate as to the wisdom of using them, in the order of precedence. if we ever come to that, but that is not for today. The twin subjects of today’s debate are the oath of I want to say one final thing in relation to this. the Lord Chancellor and the rule of law, and I will Lord Bingham was very clear that the rule of law itself consider those in a fairly narrow sense, which perhaps is something that can evolve and must be flexible, but reflects the naivety of a new Member of Parliament. there are certain fundamentals. I do not think anyone The first element of the Lord Chancellor’s oath is to would suggest that anything we are doing here alters the respect the rule of law. Despite that being a term with basic fundamentals. I am conscious of his eighth principle, which we are all familiar, its meaning is, as we have but I do not think we are at that stage, and I hope we already heard, subject to considerable debate. will not be. Moreover, he accepted that parliamentary A typical dictionary definition will elucidate sovereignty was a fundamental part of the rule of straightforward principles, such as that all people in law too. There is always a set of checks and balances in institutions are subject to and accountable to law that is that regard. fairly applied and enforced. Eminent jurists have emphasised I have no problem with certain circumstances where the principles of accessibility of power exercised in the actions of Ministers properly should be reviewed by good faith and of equality before the law, whether the courts, but I do not think this is really going to prince or pauper. Indeed, I well recall the emphasis on change that. Lord Bingham made it quite clear, though, the last from taking my own oath as a magistrate, when that he did not accept the view advanced by, for example, I promised to Lord Steyn or Baroness Hale of Richmond that there “do right to all manner of people after the laws and usages of this are some concepts so fundamental that even Parliament realm, without fear or favour, affection or ill will.” cannot legislate to change them. He did not take that However, probing a little further reveals that the view. Again, there is a perfectly respectable dispute concept of the rule of law, and specifically in the there and disagreement between highly distinguished context of the Lord Chancellor, is not as simple as it former jurists, which makes the point that none of the might at first appear. As we have heard, the Constitutional arguments powerfully advanced by the hon. and learned Reform Act 2005, which fundamentally changed the Member for Edinburgh South West are determinative role of the Lord Chancellor, does not define the existing of any failing by either the Lord Chancellor or any constitutional principle of the rule of law, nor the Lord other Minister in respect of their constitutional obligations. Chancellor’s existing constitutional role in relation to This is a worthwhile debate to have. In a sense, an that principle. hour and a half is not enough to do it justice, because as Like the hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh South we go forward, we are going to have to think about our West (Joanna Cherry), I have read the 2014 report from constitutional and legal settlements in a broader sense, the House of Lords Select Committee on the Constitution how we will operate the separation of powers in a on the office of the Lord Chancellor. In addition to post-Brexit world and how, continuing, as I hope, as a what she said, it also noted that unified state with devolution within it, we can perhaps refine the arrangements that are required to make that “the rule of law ‘is not readily defined or readily understood.’ Not all lawyers will agree on what the rule of law entails; differences of work in practice too. Those are all proper matters for opinion will undoubtedly also occur between different Lord further consideration, but do not, I think, impinge Chancellors… ‘the rule of law remains a complex and in some upon any proper allegation of any failure by the current respects uncertain concept’.” Lord Chancellor or his Ministers to act in accordance Those words are significant in the context of the matters with their constitutional duties. we are debating, indicating that we should not try to Derek Twigg (in the Chair): Before I call Rob Butler, I oversimplify and must accept that there is room for remind him that I intend to take the Front-Bench nuance of opinion. speakers around 10.40 am, so if he could keep his Another aspect of the Lord Chancellor’s oath is to speech to around six minutes, so that the Member for defend the independence of the judiciary. Rare indeed is South Cambridgeshire (Anthony Browne) can get in, I the suggestion that the British judiciary is anything but would be very grateful. independent. Indeed, sometimes the press, the public or, dare I say, politicians feel the judiciary is a little too 10.27 am independent. Many have been the tabloid headlines that Rob Butler (Aylesbury) (Con): It is a pleasure to serve criticise judges for imposing a supposedly light sentence under your chairmanship, Mr Twigg. on an offender whose crime has outraged public opinion, 145WH Lord Chancellor’s Oath and the 14 OCTOBER 2020 Lord Chancellor’s Oath and the 146WH Rule of Law Rule of Law but that judge has invariably used their experience and a verdict immediately after the prosecution has presented knowledge to pass a sentence according to the law and its case without hearing from the defence. I am grateful sentencing guidelines, which can be appealed through for the time that the Attorney General, in particular, higher courts but not influenced by any political opinion. spent talking to me about what was going on. I must say Even if there are protestations by hon. Members at that the parliamentary lock that was achieved largely the level of a sentence, there is never seriously a proposal through the efforts of the Chairman of the Justice to have a form of political accountability for the judge Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley or magistrate. This remains the case, even in judgments and Chislehurst (Sir Robert Neill), combined with the that go against the Government, of which we have seen knowledge that such a course of action would only ever more than a few in recent times. I submit that the be a last resort, provided me with necessary and sufficient independence of the judiciary is further reinforced by resource. the role of the Judicial Appointments Commission, the The law is precious. It is both fragile and robust. independent body that selects candidates for judicial Overseeing the rule of law is a profound responsibility office in courts and tribunals in England and Wales on marked by the weighty oath of the office of merit, through fair and open competition. Lord Chancellor—an oath, I submit, that is fulfilled The final element of the Lord Chancellor’s oath is to with distinction by the current holder of that great discharge his duty to office of state. “ensure the provision of resources for the efficient and effective support of the courts”. 10.34 am Now, all of us who have served in the courts in recent years know that they have experienced considerable Anthony Browne (South Cambridgeshire) (Con): I reduction in resource, as a result of necessary spending congratulate the hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh restraint by the Government of the time, but there is South West (Joanna Cherry) on securing this important now an ambitious programme of court reform, which debate. aims to bring new technology and modern ways of I should say at the outset that, like my hon. Friend working to the way that justice is administered that the Member for Aylesbury (Rob Butler), I am not a involves the investment of £1 billion in the courts and lawyer, but as a journalist I have written a lot about tribunals system. international law,the making and breaking of international I take this opportunity to highlight the fact that, treaties, and EU law in particular,as Europe correspondent during the current coronavirus pandemic, the courts for The Times. I have also instructed a lot of lawyers. I have risen to the challenge from the Lord Chancellor to spent perhaps tens of millions of pounds instructing ensure that justice could continue to operate. In particular, lawyers on international legal disputes—some with foreign magistrates courts are responding magnificently. Governments—and I am proud to say that I have won Consequently, disposals have outstripped receipts since every single case in which I have been involved. Dealing the end of July. I also, unashamedly, highlight the with all that is a painful experience, and I have quite a initiative and imagination of staff at Aylesbury Crown lot of experience. court in my constituency, who have adapted their layout I will make just two points because my comments and ways of working, so that they can return to working have to be brief. I will start with the United Kingdom at 100%. Internal Market Bill, which prompted the debate, but I Behind today’s debate seems to be a question whether will not address all the points that the hon. and learned the Lord Chancellor is in compliance with his oath. I Lady made, as my hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury have not been an MP long, but in my short time here answered some of them. Secondly, I will address the I have met the Lord Chancellor on several occasions, impact that the Bill has on the UK’s standing, which we questioned him in the Justice Committee and on the have not talked about much today, even though that Floor of the House, and heard him speak from the was very much part of the political debate. Dispatch Box on all manner of topics. One thing is On the question whether clause 5 of the Bill breaks abundantly clear to me: the Lord Chancellor is a man of international law, I draw the attention of hon. Members the highest integrity. He has spent his entire career in to article 6(2) of the Northern Ireland protocol of the the law and respects the law to the core of his being. withdrawal agreement, which states: Indeed, at the ceremony to mark his swearing in, he said “Having regard to Northern Ireland’s integral place in that he had sworn an oath to defend the independence the United Kingdom’s internal market, the Union and the of the judiciary and respect for the law that had far United Kingdom shall use their best endeavours to facilitate the more than formal relevance. It is my firm conviction trade between Northern Ireland and other parts of the United that he demonstrates his absolute and unwavering Kingdom”. commitment to that oath day in, day out. The lawyers present will know that “best endeavours” is I said a few moments ago that I wanted to address the a legal term and a much stronger requirement than just specific nature of today’s motion. In the few seconds doing one’s best to agree. that remain, I must recognise that it would seem odd The Government included clause 5 as an explicit were I not to say a few words about the Internal Market response to the threat from the EU’s negotiator, Michel Bill, which, in many respects, prompted this debate. Barnier, that the EU would not actually recognise the Clearly, that was a matter of profound importance for UK as a third country for agricultural produce, which me, given the concerns that were raised about international would effectively have made it illegal for the UK to sell law being broken. goods into the single market area, particularly Northern Probably the first thing that I learned in my time on Ireland. That would have meant a ban on trade in the Bench was that it is important to listen to both sides agricultural produce from England and Scotland to of the argument before reaching a decision, not jump to Northern Ireland, which was unconscionable. 147WH Lord Chancellor’s Oath and the 14 OCTOBER 2020 Lord Chancellor’s Oath and the 148WH Rule of Law Rule of Law [Anthony Browne] Today, it is too easy to assume these principles always existed; they did not. For many parts of the world, they If the Government had immediately used the powers still do not. Ask the people of the Congo, China, Russia granted by clause 5, that would have been a breach of or Venezuela how life is without the rule of law. It was international law, but that is not what they did. There won in this country only as a result of human ingenuity, are three triggers for using those powers: first, if no deal struggle and tremendous sacrifice. is reached, which we do not yet know, although I I am shocked to be standing here today debating the certainly hope, as does the whole House, that one is importance of the rule of law with a Conservative reached; secondly, if there is no agreement of the Joint Government. I have never been shyabout my disagreements Committee on the border controls in Northern Ireland; with Tories, but this is an issue on which I have previously and thirdly, after a vote in Parliament, if the EU breaches respected the party now in government. The rule of law best endeavours and carries out its threat not to recognise used to be fundamental to capital “C” Conservative the UK as a third country for agricultural produce. thinking. It was the basis for all that Tories once valued—the If the EU did carry out that threat, I think it would ownership of property, security, the right to personal be in breach of its treaty obligations, which would liberty, the freedom to live in a society without anarchy, release the UK from its obligations, as my hon. Friend fairness in business, law and order. From Edmund the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Sir Robert Burke to Margaret Thatcher, and even up to the right Neill) mentioned. If we ever used those powers in those hon. Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), the rule of circumstances, in no way would they be a breach of law has been just as valued on both sides of the House. international law. I am grateful that the Government recognised the importance of a parliamentary vote to So bipartisan was the British devotion to this idea ensure that that does not happen. I really do not think that we became the global home of the law. The UK has that the Bill is a breach of international law. the second largest legal sector in the world, second only to the United States of America. It contributes £60 billion My second point is about the impact on the UK’s to the UK economy and is one of our strongest global standing, which is what a lot of the political debate and exports. Businesses and individuals from all parts of the concern have been about. I have written a lot about globe flocked to this country to write contracts in international law, and the UK has been one of the English law and settle disputes in our courts. They did bastions of law abiding in the international community that because they trusted us. Whichever party was in for centuries—certainly for decades—and is very well government, the rule of law would be respected. That is regarded by other countries. no longer the case. One issue that I wrote about was the Maastricht treaty in 1992, which Sweden signed before holding a There are previous political decisions that were made referendum on joining the euro. Sweden was committed by Governments when the law was not entirely clear by international treaty to joining the euro, but unfortunately, and when it was arguable either way whether an action the people of Sweden said no in the referendum. Sweden was lawful. That is not what we are talking about today. said, “No, we are not going to join the euro,” and it is in Last month, a Cabinet Minister stood up in the House permanent breach of its international treaty obligations, of Commons and stated openly that the Government but that does not make Sweden a pariah state. One has will deliberately break the law. That did not force the to be grown up about these obligations. Secretary of State for Northern Ireland to resign. It was a decision plotted in No. 10 and supported by the whole I really do not think the Internal Market Bill breaches Cabinet. Most shamefully, it was backed by the so-called international law. I have taken advice from lots of legal Attorney General and the so-called Lord Chancellor. friends about it, and they have reached the same conclusion. Both ignored the special obligations of their offices in Even if it did break international law, it would not order to keep the keys to them. affect the UK’s international standing. The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland’scomments Derek Twigg (in the Chair): Thank you for your were not an aberration. They were a statement of intent brevity. from a Government who appear to believe in lawlessness and disorder. The country will not forget the Government 10.39 am closing down Parliament unlawfully. The public will always remember the arrogance with which Dominic Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab): I congratulate Cummings broke the law after months of national the hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh South sacrifice—we will not forget the shamelessness and West (Joanna Cherry) on securing this important debate. mendacity with which he explained away the breaking I declare an interest as an associate tenant at Doughty of a law that he helped to create. Street chambers, a non-practising member of the Bar, and a visiting professor in practice in the department of Under this Government, the public are all thinking law at the London School of Economics the same: one rule for us, another rule for them. One Magna Carta, the Charter of the Forest, habeas fool for us, and another for them. The law must be the corpus, the Petition of Right, the Bill of Rights, the same for everyone. If it is not, respect for the rule of law system of common law—for centuries, the United ends. That should be self-evident. It is a great shame Kingdom has led not only in the creation of the rule that a principle this fundamental now has to be fought of law, but in spreading that around the world. That for once again. simple but revolutionary idea was born out of two It is not only the law that is to be targeted by this others: first, that there should be no power beyond or Government, but the lawyers and judges who spend above the law and, secondly, that the law applies equally their time dedicated to upholding it. When Hungary’s to all people—women and men, rich and poor, black Prime Minister Viktor Orbán rammed a law through and white. Parliament undermining the independence of the country’s 149WH Lord Chancellor’s Oath and the 14 OCTOBER 2020 Lord Chancellor’s Oath and the 150WH Rule of Law Rule of Law judiciary, we all condemned the regime’s shift towards The Lord Chancellor’s oath, as we have heard, was authoritarianism. When the Polish Government passed set out in the Constitutional Reform Act 2005, which a law to make it possible for judges to face disciplinary preserved the principle of the “rule of law”, and as the measures when they make rulings that the Government hon. and learned Lady has already stated, it continues: do not like, Labour and Conservative supporters were “I will respect the rule of law, defend the independence of the equally appalled. Brits from all political traditions should judiciary and discharge my duty to ensure the provision of be just as outraged by the UK Government’s attack on resources for the efficient and effective support of the courts for judicial review, because it is from the same authoritarian which I am responsible.” playbook. As is immediately apparently, the Act does not define On 3 September, the Home Secretary said that specifically the constitutional duty in respect of the rule deportations were being “frustrated by activist lawyers”. of law. To say there are arguments might be overstating In saying this, she was not attacking activists, but inciting it, but there are certainly differences of emphasis about anger against immigration lawyers for representing the scope and content. The 2014 report of the House of some of the most vulnerable people in our society. Lords Constitution Committee, which has been referred Words have consequences. On 7 September, a man with to, discussed this very issue of scope. Interestingly, it a large knife entered a London law firm and threatened was Dominic Grieve who said in his evidence that the to kill an immigration solicitor—cause and effect. The duty was Law Society was forced to write to the Government to “currently considered to relate to his or her department, rather say: than an overarching guardianship role”. “It must be ensured that no further lives are endangered as a However, as the hon. and learned Lady said, Lord result of her untruthful and deliberately inflammatory rhetoric. Falconer took an entirely different view,and the Committee Put simply, this must stop now, before innocent lives are taken overruled and thought that it was wider. and other irreparable damage is done to those who work in this field.” The Cabinet manual is silent on this particular topic. It refers to the role of the Law Officers in Who will stand for the law? Not the Prime Minister. “helping ministers to act lawfully and in accordance with the rule At the Conservative party conference, he launched his of law”, own attack on “lefty lawyers”. This debate is not about partisan politics; it is about the future of our democracy. but it makes no mention of the Lord Chancellor’s duty It is about the safety of our communities and the in that respect. freedom that order can bring. Respect for the rule of One thing that is tolerably plain is that the role has law is for the benefit of every person in this country, evolved since the judicial roles fell away. As the report whatever their political views. Without it, we descend noted in paragraph 63, because of those changes, into barbarism: the rule of the jungle, anarchy,lawlessness, “the roles of other individuals and institutions have taken on a disorder and mob rule. Attacks on the rule of law greater importance in this respect.” undermine the very basis of our civilisation. Enough is None of this is in any way to downplay the role of the enough. This Conservative Government must remember Lord Chancellor, which remains very important, but their principles before they are lost for ever. As Margaret that role has to be set in a wider context. Thatcher once said: So, that is about the scope. “Being democratic is not enough, a majority cannot turn what is wrong into right. In order to be considered truly free, countries What about the content? The hon. and learned Member must also have a deep love of liberty and an abiding respect for for Edinburgh South West and others, including my the rule of law”. hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Sir Robert Neill), the distinguished Chairman of the Justice Committee, have referred to Lord Tom Bingham’s 10.47 am magisterial work, “The rule of law”, in which he identified The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice the core principle of the rule of law as being (Alex Chalk): It is a pleasure to serve under your “that all persons and authorities within the state, whether public chairmanship, Mr Twigg, and to respond to a debate or private, should be bound by and entitled to the benefit of laws back here in Westminster Hall. I congratulate the hon. publicly and prospectively promulgated and publicly administered and learned Member for Edinburgh South West (Joanna in the courts.” Cherry) on securing the debate and thank her for her As the hon. and learned Lady said, Lord Bingham went wide-ranging but tightly-argued important representations. on to outline eight principles; we have heard reference I have 12 minutes to respond to her points, which were to the eighth today. It is also correct to say that other made quite properly at greater length, and I hope she formulations exist; for example, Professor Lon Fuller will forgive me if I am unable to touch on every point wrote a distinguished treatise on the authority of law. she raised. Even if lawyers debate its precise parameters, the As its title indicates, this debate focuses on the expression “the rule of law” is generally accepted to Lord Chancellor’s oath and the rule of law.It is important include the principle that all people and institutions are to note a point that will not be lost on the people in this subject to and accountable to law that is fairly applied Chamber, but which bears emphasis: the role of the and upheld. It is important that we do not disappear Lord Chancellor is different from that of the Law down a rabbit hole on this. The expression is apt to Officers who provide legal advice to the Government include: one, equality before the law, which is the point and assist them to find lawful and proper ways to that the right hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) achieve policy objectives. The Lord Chancellor does not powerfully made; two, access to independent and impartial provide legal advice to the Government of the day. His justice; and, three, a Government subject to the law, duties, while very important in their own right, are which is a point I will return to. These principles are different. indeed the bedrock of the freedoms and protections we 151WH Lord Chancellor’s Oath and the 14 OCTOBER 2020 Lord Chancellor’s Oath and the 152WH Rule of Law Rule of Law [Alex Chalk] My second point—I will speed up—is about access to independent and impartial justice.An independent judiciary enjoy in a modern and mature democracy. The hon. and is the cornerstone of our constitution and democracy. learned Member for Edinburgh South West is a lawyer, Our judges are selected following a rigorous, independent, the right hon. Member for Tottenham is a lawyer, and merits-based process, which is key to maintaining the so is the Chairman of the Justice Committee. I recognise quality, integrity and independence of the judiciary. that lawyers play an important role in upholding those Our constitution recognises that. A point that is sometimes principles. As we know in this Chamber, lawyers have a lost is that judges of the High Court and above cannot primary duty, indeed an overarching duty, to the court. be removed from office without an address passed by Thereafter, they are obliged to fight their client’s corner both Houses of Parliament. Judges are also largely without fear or favour, and that means doing their best immune from the risk of being sued or prosecuted for within the law to defend their clients’ interests, and what they do in their capacity as a judge. They also doing so whether or not they agree with the substance benefit from immunity from being sued for defamation of the claim, or indeed the matter. for the things they say about parties or witnesses in the The Lord Chancellor made comments that particularly course of hearing cases. They can and must dispense resonated with me in his Temple speech at the opening justice fearlessly, without fear or favour. They do that of the legal year earlier this very month. He said that magnificently well, and we are extremely fortunate to “it is wholly wrong for any professional to be threatened, harassed have them. The protections exist for a good reason, and or worse, attacked simply for doing their job—we must call it out the Lord Chancellor jealously guards them. and deal with it. And make the point that those who attack The Government are subject to the law. In his speech people providing a professional service will be subject to that very same Rule of Law.” earlier this month—the one at Temple Church at the opening of the legal year, to which I referred—the I entirely agree with that. Lord Chancellor said: Of course, the rule of law is not a purely British notion, although we might like to be proprietorial about “Sometimes a lawyer will find the argument they advance to be at odds with the Government of the day—but it frankly is a it. Students of history will remember that the future strength of our mature democracy underpinned by the Rule of President of the United States, John Adams, famously Law that such debates can occur.” took on the role of defending British soldiers accused of the Boston massacre at the end of the 18th century. It Reform, which I accept that the right hon. Member for was a deeply unpopular thing for him to do personally, Tottenham takes issue with, is not, we would submit, but he was absolutely right to do it. automatically to be rejected. Many arrangements can benefit from a considered examination, and the Chair Let me turn now to the principles that I have rehearsed. of the Select Committee made that point particularly The first is equality before the law. Let me take the powerfully. The independent—I stress the word opportunity to restate the Lord Chancellor’s commitment “independent”—review of administrative law endeavours to our long-standing tradition of ensuring that rights to look at that, but let me say this: the baby will not be and liberties are protected domestically, and that our thrown out with the bathwater. Judicial review is at the international human rights obligations are fulfilled. This heart of the rule of law in this country. It allows citizens was mentioned by the hon. and learned Member for to challenge the Government and other public bodies. Edinburgh South West as regards Northern Ireland. As The Lord Chancellor is clear that the Government need the Lord Chancellor set out in his letter to the Chair of to be challenged. the Joint Committee on Human Rights: “The UK remains committed to the convention”— I listened to the points made by the hon. and learned that is, the European convention on human rights— Member for Edinburgh South West about the panel to which she referred, which had a former Supreme Court “and will continue to abide…by our obligations under it.” judge, Dominic Grieve, Lord Howard and others— After all, and I am sure that we all know this, it was a including Jessica Simor, I think. Reference was made Scots Conservative lawyer, Sir David Maxwell Fyfe, to ouster clauses, and I want to make the point that who played a central role in the formulation of the first there is nothing in the relevant sections that seeks draft of the convention after the horrors of the second to ouster completely judicial review. Indeed, if a world war. challenge were brought on the basis of procedural The important point that I want to make is that the impropriety or all the other familiar grounds, those are convention contains a number of rights, not all of not ousted. It is important to keep those concerns in which I will restate here. One of them, of course, is proper context. article 14, which determines that On the provision of resources, I know the “The enjoyment of the rights and freedoms set forth in the European Convention on Human Rights and the Human Rights Lord Chancellor is personally committed to supporting Act shall be secured without discrimination on any ground such the courts through this pandemic. I mention that because as sex, race, colour, language, religion, political or other opinion, it is part of his oath—adequate resources. My hon. national or social origin, association with a national minority, Friend the Member for Aylesbury (Rob Butler) was property, birth or other status.” absolutely right. People seem not to have picked up this That matters, because it is relevant to article 6, which point, but the magistrates courts are doing an incredible for lawyers is perhaps the pre-eminent article in the job. Since the end of July, disposals have exceeded convention—I suppose that the right to life is quite receipts, and that is to their great credit. We accept that important as well—and that is the right to a fair trial. it is much more difficult in the Crown court, but the Our courts must do justice and uphold the fairness of boost that has gone into increasing the amount of proceedings without discrimination. The Lord Chancellor technology in the system, and indeed the maintenance himself is very conscious of that, and I pause to note budget, is very welcome. It replicates a tripling of funding. that he has himself sat as a recorder of the Crown Court. We are making progress across all jurisdictions. The 153WH Lord Chancellor’s Oath and the 14 OCTOBER 2020 154WH Rule of Law scale of the challenge is unprecedented, even if the RAF Valley: Funding and Employment current volume of cases is not, and it could be necessary to look to further creative solutions in the future. 11.3 am I shall turn to UKIM in the minute that I have left available to me. The hon. and learned Member for Virginia Crosbie (Ynys Môn) (Con): I beg to move, Edinburgh South West is right: Catherine Barnard did That this House has considered the future of funding and say that the very existence of the Bill is a breach of duty employment in RAF Valley. of good faith. She said there is a strong argument to Bora da—good morning. It is an honour and a that effect, but, respectfully, there are strong arguments privilege to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Twigg. I in all sorts of directions. As the Chair of the Select must declare an interest, as I am a member of the armed Committee said, that is not of itself dispositive. forces parliamentary scheme. Before turning to part 5 of the Bill, let me state in Anyone who wants to spend time in my beautiful general terms that the Bill has been designed to offer constituency of Ynys Môn should know that there is an businesses the certainty they need and to protect trade RAF base there. They might never have seen or even and jobs in every part of the UK. I do not accept for a heard of it, but they will know it the first time one of moment that it undermines the devolved settlement, the Hawk jets goes overhead. That is also a great way to notwithstanding the powerful points that were made. spot a local because locals rarely look up when the When the hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh planes fly over. They simply pause their chat for a few South West mentioned Donald Dewar, I pause to recall seconds and resume naturally when the noise has passed. that, yes, he is sometimes referred to as the “father of Visitors, on the other hand, stand there with a shocked the nation”. However, I remember his son saying of his look that says, “What on earth was that?” My children father,with great power,in a 2014 article in the Daily Record: hear the jets as they fly over our home near Valley, and I “If he was with us today, dad would be an eloquent and say to them, “It’s the sound of freedom.” passionate campaigner for Scotland to keep her place within the RAF Valley has long been a flying training station union.” for the RAF and Royal Navy. It is the home of No. 4 I hope the hon. and learned Lady will forgive me for Flying Training School, where No. 25 Squadron, under making that point. The key point about part 5 of the the command of Wing Commander Tim Simmons, and Bill was set out by the Government on 17 September. It No. IV squadron, commanded by Wing Commander would be used Jamie Buckle, provide advanced jet training for the next “only in the case of, in our view, the EU being engaged in a generation of RAF and Royal Navy fighter pilots. They material breach of its duties of good faith or other obligations, train in the BAE Systems Hawk TT jet, which has and thereby undermining the fundamental purpose of the Northern advanced avionics and is the perfect leading trainer for Ireland Protocol.” pilots moving on to frontline aircraft, such as the Typhoon Let me close by thanking the hon. and learned Member and the F-35 Lightning. for Edinburgh South West for securing this important No. 72 Squadron, led by Wing Command Chris Ball, debate. On a personal note, I am very pleased that the joined the base last year and carries out basic flying Lord Chancellor is in post. He has practised as a lawyer training in the Texan T1 aircraft. RAF Valley provides and served as a recorder, and he understands the law’s two thirds of the UK’s fast-jet training, delivering basic central role in a fair, free and ordered society. The rule and advanced courses. The pilots trained at RAF Valley of lawmatters,and the Lord Chancellor has an unshakeable go on to secure the skies, protect UK airspace at home commitment to uphold it. and defend UK interests overseas. The station is home to the UK military flying training system, one of NATO’s Derek Twigg (in the Chair): Joanna Cherry, you have most advanced fighter pilot training programmes, and nine seconds. RAF Valley is an acknowledged centre of excellence. It is Britain’s equivalent of “Top Gun”. 10.59 am RAF Valley is the base for the RAF mountain rescue Joanna Cherry: It has been a good debate, but I do service, which is expertly led by Squadron Leader Ed not think there have been any answers to my pointed Slater. His team is on-call 24 hours a day, 365 days a questions. What we need to remember is that it is not a year to save lives and support the UK and local emergency question of growing up; it is a question of the weight of services. Barely a day goes by in the summer without the legal opinion. The weight of legal opinion on the Bill is Daily Post citing another daring rescue in Snowdonia—the clear. kind of press coverage that my team can only dream of. Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 10(6)). The 202 Squadron is also based at RAF Valley, where, under the leadership of Squadron Leader Martin Jarvis, Derek Twigg (in the Chair): I suspend the sitting for it teaches UK military helicopter crews highly skilled two minutes. I remind Members to leave via the entrance maritime and mountain flying techniques. There has on the right-hand side. been an RAF base there since world war two, when it was established as a fighter station to defend Merseyside, 11 am the industrial north and the Irish sea from enemy air and sea activity. From 1943, it was a major staging post Sitting suspended. for United States army air forces arriving from the United States to help the war effort. It has long been established as an operational training base. Ynys Môn is rightly proud of its RAF heritage and RAF Valley is an integral part of its fabric. I declare a further interest, as my grandparents were in the RAF 155WH RAF Valley: Funding and 14 OCTOBER 2020 RAF Valley: Funding and 156WH Employment Employment [Virginia Crosbie] Union training camp and offers junior football and tennis camps in association with the Isle of Anglesey during world war two—indeed, it is where they met—so County Council. I have a real passion for the service, as I would not be here without it. With Bangor University, RAF Valley supports the Profi project, an experiential learning and mentoring RAF Valley is more than just a military base. It is the programme aimed at 18 to 24-year-olds, and STEM second largest employer on Anglesey after the local Cymru projects. It also works closely with Careers authority. It has a Whole Force of about 1,500 personnel Wales to support youth projects across north Wales and made up of approximately 350 military and civil servants help young people to establish transferable skills and and 1,150 industry partners. find employment. For local schoolchildren, the station hosts on-site STEM activities and school days, and is Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the actively involved in the air cadets, girl guides and scouts. hon. Lady on securing this debate. In the short time that Many of the military personnel volunteer with local she has been in the House, her industrious efforts on youth organisations while they are based at the camp. behalf of her constituents have been recognised by everyone, including me. I put that on record. She just Indeed, RAF Valley has an active station charities referred to the numbers. Does she agree that the work committee, and many charities across north Wales carried out by the 1,500 RAF service personnel, civil have benefited from funds raised by the station. Charity servants and contractors shows that it is essential for track days, aviation society spotters days and the Tour the area—for not just the RAF station, but the de Môn cycling event are just a taster. I cannot wait to community—and that the relationship between the RAF stick on my white beard and face mask and join them and the community is important? Does she also agree on their Santa drop to Ysbyty Gwynedd this Christmas. that the Minister should help her in his response? From organising beach cleans to their thrift shop recycling project, to acting as custodians for a section of the famous Anglesey coastal path, RAF Valley is definitely Virginia Crosbie: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his part of day-to-day life on Ynys Môn. Indeed, the Padre kind words. It is my privilege to support Ynys Môn. I —Mike Hall, who I met recently—told me that they even agree that the RAF plays a significance role on the support entrepreneurs in their community centre. island. Many other local people are reliant on work in the I am fortunate that the RAF community embraced station’s supply chain, and many large companies support and welcomed me. I visited the station recently and was its output, such as BAE Systems, Babcock International, taken around by Group Captain Moon, who proudly Ascent Flight Training, Affinity Flying Training Services, showed off his station, and particularly his dedicated Airbus Helicopters and Eurest Support Services. From and devoted staff. He told me: highly skilled engineers to kitchen staff and cleaners, “Whilst the RAF might seem to be high tech equipment every single one of them plays a key role at RAF Valley. focused from the outside, it is our people, from across the Whole It is a critical part of the island’s economy. Many Force, that really give us our edge. Some of our people have children from the base go to local schools and learn worked here for over 40 years, and if you cut them open it would Welsh, and staff and their families integrate within the say RAF Valley on the inside!” community. Many return to live on the island when they While there, I saw and spoke to members of the Whole leave the RAF. Force carrying out a range of duties, and from the The Whole Force team, led by Group Captain Chris minute I arrived on station, the site’s“one-team”approach Moon, intentionally develops close formal and informal was clear. While visiting 72 Squadron, which played a local connections.Engagement activities include community key role in the battle of Britain, I met many of the council briefing days, working with Bangor University military and civilian personnel of Ascent and Affinity. on history research projects and liaising with Wales They are rightly proud of the heritage of their squadron. armed forces covenant stakeholders. It has actively There was a real team atmosphere, and it was great to supported the local island games team which, we have meet the dedicated workers of “Menai Cleaning”, proudly just learned, has won its bid for the 40th anniversary of wearing their 72 Squadron name badges. the International Island games to be held on Ynys Môn in 2025. RAF Valley organises safety campaigns, It was a privilege to have a go in one of the station’s works closely with the local aviation society and state-of-the-art flight simulators. Although my flying provides personnel to support the local Royal National was not perfect, I was told that it was similar to that of Lifeboat Institution, mountain rescue and first responder my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education. groups. I am thinking of giving them a “Top Gear”-style leader board to track the parliamentarians who visit. The rural outlying nature of Ynys Môn means that activities for young people on the island can be sparse. Warrant Officer Nikkie Jones showed me around the There are high levels of youth unemployment and school air traffic control tower, where the professionalism and attainment is generally below average, particularly for ability of the controllers was evident as they safely and boys. Seeing a clear gap in the market, RAF Valley efficiently directed all the Hawk, Texan and helicopter operates extensive youth engagement programmes involving activities through the skies. Wing Commander Nikki Parr many local groups. Civilian and military personnel from summed up the view of the team best when she said the base, in particular June Strydhorst and Squadron to me: Leader Graeme Muscat, are proud to support the Jon “In a career of over 28 years within the Royal Navy and the Egging Trust, with its inspirational and award-winning RAF, Valley is the best place I have ever served, with absolutely outreach programme for 14 to 16-year-olds. RAF Valley everyone pulling together to achieve our aim of getting Pilots to has hosted the under-16 and under-18 Welsh Rugby the Front Line; safely”. 157WH RAF Valley: Funding and 14 OCTOBER 2020 RAF Valley: Funding and 158WH Employment Employment Skilled jobs are obviously critical to the operational to be created for the next 20 years. I ask the Minister to effectiveness of the base, and to the economy of Ynys acknowledge the importance of RAF Valley, and to Môn. Our island is over-reliant on tourism, which, as give us his absolute assurance of the MOD’s recognition we have seen only too clearly this year, is a fickle of Anglesey’s appreciation of the station. mistress. We need good-quality, well-paid and reliable Although I appreciate that negotiations are under jobs for our young people to move into when they leave way at this time, I want the Minister to acknowledge school. Too many are forced to leave the island to seek the significance of the RAF to Ynys Môn. The people work elsewhere. RAF Valley, with its innovative technical in my constituency are rightly concerned about the partners, has provided a much-needed source of implications of the negotiations and the timescales to employment locally. The teams provide excellent which they are being conducted, so I ask the Minister to opportunities, with high-quality training apprenticeships set out exactly where the negotiations stand at this time, and long-term career progression possibilities. I will and when those affected will know what is being decided. give a couple of examples. Finally, I want to look beyond 2025 and ask the Minister Laurence Peers was raised in Holyhead and left school whether he will work with me and ministerial colleagues with no qualifications. He started working at RAF to get further operations to RAF Valley. Valley in 2002, and today he is an experienced supervisor in the avionics and electrical trade. Indeed, it was Laurence Derek Twigg (in the Chair): I call the Minister. who got me in and out of the flight simulator when I Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab) rose— visited the station. Laurence said to me, “please do all you can to keep giving the young people of this Derek Twigg (in the Chair): Order. Have we been island the best chances in life if they wish to stay and live and given notice of the hon. Gentleman’s wish to speak? make a reasonable living where they were brought up.” John Patchett was posted to Valley in March 1984 The Minister for Defence Procurement (Jeremy Quin): and stressed that the Hawk team workforce has 40 years’ Mr Twigg, I am aware that my hon. Friend the Member experience, and that the force needs to retain and build for Ynys Môn (Virginia Crosbie) had communication on that collateral. He told me that he and his colleagues from the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David). chose to remain at Valley because This was also cleared by my office. But I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman made it clear—he can “it’s not only a workplace [or] a job to us, but a way of life. The island and nearby mainland is our home, or has become our speak for himself, of course. home.” Wayne David: Yes, I had submitted to speak, in fact. His team wants to stay on the island and pass their skills on to new generations of young people who Derek Twigg (in the Chair): I had not been given desperately need the kind of training and support that notice, but okay. My apologies, Mr David. RAF Valley can give them. Ian Blackie, who works on the T1 planes, told me 11.15 am that the RAF Valley team is absolutely critical to putting Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): Thank you for your RAF and Royal Navy aircrew on to the frontline safely forbearance, Mr Twigg. and on time. He said: Let me begin my short contribution by congratulating “To maintain these 45 year old fighter training jets requires a the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Virginia Crosbie) on knowledgeable,highly skilled and dedicated workforce.This knowledge so accurately and passionately presenting the case for and skill set are developed over many years and are unique to the RAF Valley. My particular interest in and concern with RAF Valley workforce, with both hands-on maintenance and RAF Valley stem from the fact that last year I completed technical support cells.” the armed forces parliamentary scheme and I was seconded I recognise and appreciate that the BAE Systems to the RAF.Having completed the scheme and graduated, contract is currently under negotiation, and I in no way I am left with huge admiration for the RAF and the wish to interrupt those discussions. However, I wish to tremendous service that it provides to this country. As impress upon the Minister the importance of RAF part of the scheme I visited RAF Valley, and as the hon. Valley to Ynys Môn. RAF Valley is not “just an employer” Member has suggested, I was struck by the tremendous but a team, a family; and like all great teams, it operates commitment of the entire workforce there, but also by efficiently because every part of it performs its own role, the huge contribution that RAF Valley makes to the and does it brilliantly. The people of Ynys Môn want wellbeing of the local economy. It is absolutely central RAF Valley to grow and flourish. We are the energy to the future of Anglesey as a community.I was enormously island, an incubation of innovation, a place for technological impressed that there is a special focus, as we have heard, creativity. RAF Valley is part of our DNA. on pilot training. It is the centre for pilot training for the This debate is not just about current jobs. It is about RAF and, to some extent, the Navy in the United ensuring the long-term future of RAF Valley. It is Kingdom. about keeping RAF Valley as a centre of excellence for However, I have a concern, too. The concern is that training pilots for both the RAF and Royal Navy. It is 180 jobs could be cut from the essential Hawk contract about retaining and encouraging investment in both the at RAF Valley by 2033. The fear among the workforce base and its workforce. It is about ensuring that RAF stems from the contract negotiations, which I understand Valley has the most up-to-date equipment, the best are taking place, between BAE Systems and the Ministry planes and, of course, the exceptionally high calibre of of Defence for the T1 and T2 Hawk aircraft. For the technical staff that it has spent years developing. I ask T1 Hawk there is an active proposal, I understand, to the Minister to tell me not only how jobs will be move all the T1 depth maintenance to RAF Leeming maintained at RAF Valley but, more importantly, what by 2023. That move alone could accelerate the loss of jobs, apprenticeships and other opportunities he expects between 50 and 70 jobs at Valley. It has been suggested 159WH RAF Valley: Funding and 14 OCTOBER 2020 RAF Valley: Funding and 160WH Employment Employment [Wayne David] and—critically, as my hon. Friend said—the employees of the future. I know that my hon. Friend and all who by people who work there that that proposal makes no wish RAF Valley well want ongoing investment and the sense, either financially or from an operational perspective. provision of state-of-the-art aircraft, to make manifest I would like the Minister to comment specifically on our commitment to the base’s future. that. As a threat evolves, the training to meet the threat Unite, the trade union, suggests that the move is not evolves, and the planes required for training evolve. We only ill thought out. There has been a suggestion—no are committed to ensuring that RAF Valley is at the more than a suggestion—that perhaps the Chancellor core of that evolution. The evidence already, at the base, of the Exchequer has had some influence on the decision is apparent. As a result of the decision to concentrate making that is taking place, because Leeming is part of basic flying training at RAF Valley—moving assets, his constituency, of course. incidentally,from RAF Linton-on-Ouse in North Yorkshire There is also concern that a further 100 jobs could be to the island—more focus and investment has been lost by 2033. That relates to the T2 Hawk. Therefore delivered into the base. The station has not only benefited there could be, in total, a loss of 180 jobs. Of course, from a sizeable part of the £3.5 billion set aside to because the base is so central to the wellbeing of the deliver military flying training; we have recently also, island and the local economy, that would be a huge specifically, spent £20 million on refurbishing the runway. body blow to Anglesey. We know full well that the RAF Valley pilots are trained on the modern and island has suffered a number of very difficult economic sophisticated Texan and updated Hawk T2 aircraft. and job losses over the last few years, and this would be Those are a great leap forward from the platforms that a further and significant body blow to the island. Therefore, they replace, with heads-up display that can accurately like the hon. Member for Ynys Môn, I am looking for simulate weapon attacks and other threats, which ensure reassurance and clarification from the Minister on the the maximum training benefit from every sortie. The points that we have mentioned. Government committed, in the 2015 strategic defence and security review, to increase the number of fast jet 11.20 am squadrons and, thereby, pilots to fly them, all of whom will be trained at the expanded training system at RAF The Minister for Defence Procurement (Jeremy Quin): Valley, with more Texan aircraft coming on stream to It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, deliver the training. All levels of fast jet training at Mr. Twigg. I want to start by congratulating my hon. RAF Valley are being complemented by advanced synthetic Friend the Member for Ynys Môn (Virginia Crosbie). I training that can accurately replicate the complex and knew her before she arrived at this place. I thought she detailed realistic scenarios that pilots need to train for. would be a brilliant advocate for her constituents and It is not only fast jet training that has had that she has proved to be so, in the way that she has been treatment. The lifesaving search and rescue training tackling me directly about this vital base and vital that also takes place at RAF Valley has also had a employer in her constituency, and in securing the debate. valuable boost, in the form of the new Jupiter helicopter. She will be a redoubtable representative for Ynys Môn. The overall result has been aircraft and facilities that I am also delighted to hear that she is a member of the are among the most advanced in the world. Through armed forces parliamentary scheme, with the RAF. I the hard work of its staff and the students themselves, am sure that she will learn from them, and that that will RAF Valley is preparing to award Royal Navy and be mutual. I wish her well with the course. RAF wings to the first six pilots to graduate on the I am grateful, Mr Twigg, that you allowed the hon. Texan next month. That is a fantastic achievement and Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David) to make a a huge moment in a young pilot’s career, and it is the contribution. It was good to see him here. He is another culmination of years of effort and preparation. alumnus of the scheme. There is great cross-party support The impact of our investment in RAF Valley, on the for defence and what it means to Wales. It is incredibly ground, has been clear. Between 2017-18 and 2019-20 important, as the hon. Gentleman said, and I shall our industrial partners who undertake the critical roles come on to his points. of servicing the aircraft and running the training systems There are few better examples of the value of defence grew the number of their employees at the base from to a community than the situation at RAF Valley. My around 450 to just over 600, so nearly 150 additional hon. Friend made some points about the station’s history, personnel are being employed at RAF Valley to support but I shall not dwell on that. I shall dwell on the present the Texan and Jupiter aircraft. As the hon. Member for and future, as she would wish me to do. British pilots Strangford (Jim Shannon) pointed out, those new colleagues and jets are occupied day in, day out in the defence of at the base, whom we welcome, are part of a total team our country, our interests and the free world. In the of some 1,500, delivering for the base. future, wherever those planes are taking off to protect We recognise the importance of investing not only in our airspace or that of our NATO allies, taking part in infrastructure and the jobs of today, but in the skills of critical combat missions or flying from the decks of our tomorrow. My hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn two deeply impressive new aircraft carriers, the people made that point very powerfully and she is absolutely of Ynys Môn will know that those pilots trained and right. At RAF Valley, we are proud of the work done won their wings among them, on the island. on STEM training. Across Wales, some 90,000 students RAF Valley, as my hon. Friend mentioned, works as had access to the RAF’s first-rate STEM training a team, harnessing the talents of its cadre of service programme last year. I know the value of investing in personnel, civil servants and contractors to train the people in north Wales and how it can generate lasting pilots of the future for both the Royal Navy and the RAF. loyalty and an inspiring workforce. A crucial aspect of generating that team is the strong A Babcock-sponsored two-year apprentice programme, working bonds with the local communities and employees in partnership with Coleg Menai in Bangor, has run for 161WH RAF Valley: Funding and 14 OCTOBER 2020 RAF Valley: Funding and 162WH Employment Employment four years, generating, to date, 29 apprentices who Making the right operational decision is critical. The qualified in aeronautical engineering. I am proud to say RAF needs to ensure that its planes can be reliably that 28 of those are still working at RAF Valley. A serviced and are constantly available. That emphasises further 19 apprentices, currently in training, will graduate the vital importance of continuing to grow the skills in the next two years. Babcock is constantly alive to the base to provide the engineers that we need at RAF need to recruit and retain talent at the base. Seven Valley and more widely. Naturally, we also need to employees remain who were redeployed from RAF consider value-for-money arguments, and we are also Linton-on-Ouse, and cash awards are paid to employees keenly focused on the UK Government’s commitment who successfully refer new colleagues. to levelling up the whole of the UK and supporting the Set against the context of that positive background Union. Discussions are ongoing and we will update the of new assets who have moved to RAF Valley, of new community as soon as any decisions are made. I roles created and skills training being delivered, I shall re-emphasise that no decisions have, as yet, been made. now address the understandable concerns that brought The personnel of RAF Valley have a deep commitment my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn to this to working with and supporting the local community, debate, regarding the recent speculation around the and my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn touched future of Hawk T1 maintenance and what that might on that. There are many examples of that close working mean for those currently employed by one of our relationship. I know that there is a strong team at RAF commercial partners, BAE Systems. As she is aware, Valley, delivering for defence and also delivering many Hawk T1s are no longer used operationally from RAF benefits to the local community. The bonds are very Valley. The remaining Hawk T1s used operationally are strong. I thank the hon. Lady for giving me the opportunity based at RAF Leeming, at the royal naval air squadron to set out the current situation and I thank all Members at Culdrose, and in Lincolnshire with the Red Arrows. for their interest and the recognition of the vital need to While every capability is subject to the current integrated continue to train our military jet pilots to the highest review, the Red Arrows T1s are expected to reach their level of expertise and of the vital role played by RAF out-of-service date in 2030 and the rest of the fleet in Valley. I had hoped to be able to give the hon. Lady a 2027, as set out in the strategic defence and security couple of minutes to reply, but I do not believe I can review 2015. under the rules of the House. I apologise to her and The RAF is currently undergoing a review of how thank her again for bringing the matter to this Chamber. best to deliver all aspects of servicing and maintenance As I say, the bonds around RAF Valley are very strong, for the Hawk T1s through to their OSDs. My officials as is our commitment to that vital and internationally are in discussions with BAE Systems and we are determining highly regarded base. potential options for a Hawk 2020 support contract. I Question put and agreed to. emphasise that, at this stage, no decisions have been taken. Any future decision will be based on a range of 11.29 am factors. Sitting suspended. 163WH 14 OCTOBER 2020 Jet Zero Council 164WH

Jet Zero Council anywhere in the world to make such a pledge. In June, the creation of the Jet Zero council was announced, with the objective of developing and industrialising zero-emission aviation and aerospace technologies. The [MRS MARIA MILLER in the Chair] first meeting was held in July. The council has an 2.30 pm impressive membership of the great and the good of the aviation and aerospace sectors, and given its importance Mrs Maria Miller (in the Chair): I remind Members for aviation and aerospace employment, I think it would that there have been some changes to normal practice in be sensible to have a worker representative on the order to support the new call list system and to ensure council as well. that social distancing can be respected. Members should sanitise their microphones using the cleaning materials It could be said that the scale of the challenge is provided before they use them and respect the one-way too big and that we should all fly less and that our system around the room. Members should only speak aviation and aerospace sectors should contract. I disagree. from the horseshoe and can only speak if they are on Instead, we should harness our huge strength in aviation the call list. That also applies to this debate, for which technology and engineering to find new solutions to we are fully subscribed. Members are not expected to allow us to fly without wrecking the planet. I want our remain for the wind-ups. I remind Members that there constituents to carry on enjoying the pleasure and is less of an expectation that they stay for the next two freedom of a sunny holiday, and I want UK exporters speeches following their own once they have spoken to to find new markets for British business all around the make sure we manage attendance in the room. world as they continue to fly on business travel. But it is important that all that is done responsibly, so Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): I that we can fly with a clear conscience. That is why the beg to move work of the Jet Zero Council is so important, and why That his House has considered the work of the Jet Zero Council. this debate matters so much. Not only do we need to May I say what a huge pleasure it is to serve under what turbocharge the science and technology to reduce I understand is your first Westminster Hall debate, greenhouse gas emissions from aviation, we also need to Mrs Miller? It is also great pleasure to have this debate ensure that the United Kingdom is at the forefront of responded to by my the Under-Secretary of State for sustainable aviation so that the high-skilled, high-wage Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Witney jobs of the future are provided here. We cannot leave (Robert Courts). I am particularly pleased to see him that to chance, as has unfortunately happened with come on to the Front Bench, because it is the first other technologies in the past. Germany, France, Norway parliamentary engagement that I have had with him. I and Indonesia are already making progress in that know he will do us all proud and cares a lot about this direction. issue. I am also grateful to Mr Speaker for allocating me Calor’s parent company, has already partnered with this debate. London Luton airport is close to my the Dutch airline KLM to build Europe’s first dedicated constituency and is an important source of jobs for my plant to produce sustainable aviation fuels in the constituents. Netherlands. A by-product of the plant will be low-carbon The UK has the third biggest global aviation network fuel for homes and businesses in the rural off-gas grid. in the world, and we are a leading aerospace nation. Sustainable aviation fuels are a here-and-now solution Aviation contributes more than £52 billion a year to using proven technologies that can be used in existing GDP and the sector directly contributes 230,000 jobs, engines and transport pipelines, requiring no modifications which are largely high value and high skilled, in airframe to aircraft or refuelling infrastructure.At present, sustainable development and manufacturing. All of that will be a aviation fuels are the only option that can decarbonise continued requirement for the industry as it decarbonises. long-haul flight, from which two-thirds of UK aviation At the moment, however, as a result of the pandemic, CO2 emissions currently arise. It is important to note there has been a massive reduction in the number of that second-generation sustainable aviation fuels do not flights, but passenger numbers are expected to recover rely on feedstocks that should be used for other purposes. to 2019 levels by 2023-24 or possibly earlier, depending Current sustainable aviation fuel is developed from on the progress of scientific breakthroughs in dealing sustainable feedstocks, waste oils, fats, greases, industrial with the virus. Industry projections also show passenger gases and—I am told—even municipal solid waste as numbers rising by 65% from 2018 levels to 2050. The well as agricultural and forestry residue. UK also has a legally binding net zero target for 2050, The UK’s first commercial sustainable aviation fuel and we need to reconcile that vitally important target facility, Alt Alto in Immingham, received planning with the projected increase in demand. Progress has permission in June. It is the first of its kind in Europe already been made: between 2005 and 2016, Sustainable and is a collaboration between Velocys, British Airways Aviation member airlines carried 26% more passengers and Shell. Other UK facilities such as the LanzaJet project and freight, with carbon dioxide emissions rising by 9%. in Port Talbot are also under development—it seems to That is still 9% too much, but it shows that improvements help to have a Californian or holiday-sounding name are possible. for these new sites. Sustainable aviation have asked for Speaking to the International Gas Turbine Institute £429 million in Government-backed loan guarantees to last September, the Prince of Wales said support the establishment of the first flagship sustainable “the need to decarbonise flight must remain at the top of the agenda” aviation fuel facilities in the UK. A grant of £50 million and issued a challenge to do so by 2035. In February is being sought to move this work to higher technology- this year, Sustainable Aviation members made a public readiness levels, and to enable providers to move to commitment to reach net UK aviation carbon emissions commercial scale. A further £21 million is being sought by 2050, becoming the first national aviation body to establish a UK clearing house to enable sustainable 165WH Jet Zero Council 14 OCTOBER 2020 Jet Zero Council 166WH aviation fuel testing. By 2037, there could be 14 sustainable my constituency will be particularly pleased to learn aviation fuel production facilities in the UK, which about that, because they are all under the flight path of would create 13,600 jobs and add £1.9 billion to GDP London Luton airport. when overseas export opportunities are included. The aviation impact accelerator will help speed up the delivery of new technology and scale up the infrastructure, Alt Alto Immingham hopes to be producing fuel by investment and policy necessary for that. The new Whittle 2025 and many of these jobs would be in our industrial laboratory has already raised £23.5 million from its heartlands, contributing to levelling up in areas such as industrial partners, but it needs an additional £25 million south Wales, the north-west, Teesside, Humberside, from the Government to commence building in February St Fergus, Grangemouth and Southampton. There will next year. I hope that may be possible, because in the also be a boost to the rural economy where feedstocks briefing in which the Secretary of State for Transport for facilities would be processed before final upgrading announced the formation of the Jet Zero Council, he at an industrial plant. Electric and hydrogen technologies said he was also have great potential to deliver zero emission short and medium haul flights. “excited about a Cambridge University and Whittle labs project to accelerate technologies for zero-carbon flight”. The world’s first hydrogen-powered flight has taken To speed up the council’s work, the Government should place in God’s own county of Bedfordshire. As part of consider an airline scrappage schemes, with airlines the HyFlyer,project, ZeroAvia commissioned at Cranfield encouraged to buy less polluting jets when available and University the first on-site hydrogen fuelling system take more polluting models out of service. capable of producing green hydrogen used to power It is good to see hon. Members in the Room today. I zero-emission flight. In 2023 ZeroAvia will bring to look forward to their contributions and hope we have market the first hydrogen-electric powertrain capable of cross-party support for this important initiative. flying aircraft with up to 19 seats in a certifiable configuration design for a range of airframes currently Several hon. Members rose— in use. It has the potential to generate significant new employment and investment in the aerospace sector. Mrs Maria Miller (in the Chair): To ensure that all For example, easyJet, a major company at Luton airport, Members here and on the call list have the opportunity continues to work with Wright Electric on an all-electric to speak, I advise people to take seven to eight minutes, 186-seat passenger jet, and only last month Airbus if that is okay, so that we have enough time to move to unveiled designs for hydrogen-powered aircraft that could wind-ups just before half-past three. be flying by 2035. Technology improvements through fleet upgrades 2.44 pm represent the largest long-term aviation decarbonisation Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): Thank you very solution in the sector. The Aerospace Technology Institute much, Mrs Miller; it is a great pleasure to serve under wishes to see funding doubled to £330 million a year to your chairmanship for the first of what will be many enable the UK to become a world leader in developing occasions in this now reactivated Chamber. I congratulate more efficient engines as well as hybrid electric and my hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire hydrogen aircraft. Every £1 of Government investment (Andrew Selous) on successfully calling for this debate in aerospace research and development brings in another and on leading it with huge aplomb and great detail and £12 in private research and development spending—pretty knowledge of how important jet zero is to the United impressive leverage. Kingdom. It is worth putting the debate into context. At the Airspace modernisation also has an important role to moment, we face the crisis of the pandemic, with huge play in making use of aircraft performance capability economic and employment crises coming quickly towards and reducing emissions and noise. Today’s advanced us. Just as in the second world war, when we laid down aircraft still rely on old navigation technologies because the foundations for huge education and health reforms, the airspace structures they use were designed for the so too our current duty in Parliament is to think about fewer slower aircraft flying in the 1950s. The new Whittle the longer term and about how we can help to create an laboratory in Cambridge, and the national centre for economic strategy that drives growth, jobs and innovation propulsion and power that it will house, will ensure that for a global Britain that can still play a major role in the the UK leads the development of zero-carbon flight world’s modern transport systems. That is precisely where and will play a central role in supporting FlyZero. jet zero comes into play. This is the nation that delivered However, as I said earlier, the challenge from overseas the world’s first jet engine, and this is the nation that can is there. The German Government are already planning deliver the fastest and best jet zero project. It is encouraging a large investment in a low emissions aviation research therefore that, on the one hand, the Government are centre that will operate in direct competition with the committing funds to invest in the necessary research new Whittle laboratory. The new laboratory will ensure and development and that, on the other, industry and that the new technologies are used across the industrial manufacturing are committing huge resource to doing networks in Newcastle, Lincoln, Derby, Bristol, Glasgow the same. and Lancashire as it partners with Rolls-Royce, Mitsubishi As the Member of Parliament for Gloucester, where Heavy Industries, Siemens, Dyson and the Aviation many years ago, Frank Whittle’s first jet engine limped Technology Institute. The new laboratory will co-locate down the Hucclecote runway for its first flight, I am with the aviation impact accelerator, the design of which delighted that just down the road at Gloucestershire is based on what Cambridge has learned from Dame airport, in the constituency of my neighbour, my hon. Ann Dowling’s silent aircraft initiative. The residents of Friend the Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson), the villages of Kensworth, Studham and Whipsnade in huge work is going on between Electroflight—an 167WH Jet Zero Council 14 OCTOBER 2020 Jet Zero Council 168WH

[Richard Graham] to affect our aviation industry, and there are repercussions for the wider economy, too: the mass redundancies in entrepreneurandinnovator-ledcompany—andRolls-Royce, airlines such as British Airways and easyJet are devastating to create the world’s first electric aviation engine. That for the employees and their families. Colleagues may be project, which uses the acronym ACCEL—Accelerating aware of the negative attention that was generated the Electrification of Flight—is one step towards the recently by what I regard as the rather insensitive comments goal that my hon. Friend the Member for South West of the Work and Pensions Secretary, when she suggested Bedfordshire outlined. that cabin crew and pilots who lose their jobs can It is an exciting project, but it is not just about retrain as carers and teachers. Electroflight and Rolls-Royce. It also involves Airbus, The consequences of the approach to the aviation which is the giant that effectively creates a network of sector’s crisis will be felt right across the economy, mainframe contractors across the west of England— because aviation is a linchpin. It supports sectors such broadly,up the M5—and, when it comes to sub-contractors, as tourism, it attracts inward investment across the across the whole country.The opportunities are therefore country and it connects us to the rest of the world. considerable, because Airbus stretches across the world. Newcastle airport, which lies within my constituency, is The project will impact all of us who have the privilege an international and domestic transport hub, a strategic of serving as the Prime Minister’strade envoys, particularly asset for our region, and it is central to our economic in Asia, where aviation will carry on growing, creating growth. Our airport supports manufacturing businesses, huge demand for all sorts of new aircraft. exports and higher education, attracting people to our New aircraft will probably be smaller compared with world-class universities. So the Government need to the previous tendency to buy larger aircraft. Of course, understand the special status of the aviation industry earlier this week, we effectively saw the end of the and show much greater understanding of and support Boeing 747, which is the start of a trend in a different for it in the years ahead. direction. The world expects to be able to travel, but also Treasury Ministers have repeatedly referred to a support to be able to do so in a much greener way than in the package for aviation that has been provided, but I would past. For those of us who, like me, were airline managers say that the specific package that is needed has not been in the ’80s, when it was unimaginable that anything provided yet. Air bridges need to be arranged as soon as other than carbon fuel would be used as the means to possible. There should be 12 months of business rate drive our aircraft, this is an especially exciting period. relief, which has already been given to airports in Scotland What we all find exciting about this project is the way and Northern Ireland. These forms of support need to that industry is really excited to be working with the be provided to create a level playing field, so that we will Government on an industrial strategy in which everybody’s all be able to “build back better” after this crisis. aims are aligned. I am sure that the Minister will say The Minister today will also be aware of the growing more about the White Paper, which I believe will be concern in the travel industry and among travellers published shortly and will lay out the Government’s about testing being in place to replace quarantine measures. ambitions for industrial strategy a few years since the The current system relies on deterring people from creation of the Department for Business, Energy and travelling, and it is not effective as a public health Industrial Strategy by my right hon. Friend the Member measure because it does not do enough to pick up those for Maidenhead (Mrs May). I hope it will also set out people who have no choice but to travel and who may how innovation and quality will drive us forward, and have covid-19. how our focus—whether in space, with satellites and launching pads, or on new engines, lighter ways of I appreciate that Members may ask, “What’s this got manufacturing aircraft, and all the things that make up to do with Jet Zero?” However, what we do now, in the 35% of an Airbus that is made in the UK—has the getting the right atmosphere and support package in full support of Government and, I hope, of Members place for aviation, is absolutely crucial to building the of Parliament across the House, so that industry will Jet Zero vision that we need for the future. I have to say know that in the aviation and aerospace sectors, the that there does not seem to be that appreciation in nation’s Government and representatives are fully behind Government yet that we need to keep the foundations its efforts to produce a newer,greener and more sustainable that we have in our aviation industry in order to be in a form of international transport. position to build that greener, more sustainable aviation industry of the future. We need to create an investment 2.50 pm environment so that people will invest in the future of aviation. It will take significant investment to create Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) that green, sustainable future, but investors will not (Lab): I thank the hon. Member for South West want to put that money into a distressed sector that has Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous), for securing this debate not been supported through this pandemic. and for setting out the case for Jet Zero so eloquently. I can reassure him from the outset that there is very much As co-chair of the all-party parliamentary group on cross-party support for this endeavour. However, I intend sustainable aviation, I support the calls for investment to set out a little bit of gentle challenge as well, because in sustainable engines and fuel to make air travel cleaner we need to ensure that we do everything we can at this and greener, to help the UK to meet its climate change point to support aviation. targets, and to protect aviation jobs. Aviation was one of the first industries to be hit by I strongly welcome the creation of the Jet Zero Council. It this pandemic and I believe that it will be one of the last will be instrumental in connecting aerospace modernisation, industries to recover from it, especially as measures sustainable fuels, technological developments, carbon such as quarantine remain in place and countries retain offsetting and renewables in a coherent framework for restrictions on visitors from the UK. The crisis continues delivery that Government and industry can support. 169WH Jet Zero Council 14 OCTOBER 2020 Jet Zero Council 170WH

The Committee on Climate Change says that sustainable be with the Minister of Aviation, newly installed in the fuels are critical to cutting emissions from aviation, but position. I congratulate him on that and my hon. Friend at present the challenge seems to lie in international the Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) agreement on how to encourage their use. In a letter to on securing this very important debate. the International Civil Aviation Organisation, the chief I am keen to speak because tackling and stopping technology officers of Boeing, Airbus,Rolls-Royce,General environmental destruction is the defining mission of Electric, Safran, Dassault Aviation and Raytheon urged our age. We have seen so much of it over the last greater efforts to create, 100 years, and we have to bring it to an end. That is why “conditions under which sustainable aviation fuels (SAF) can be I am chair of the all-party parliamentary group on the widely deployed”. environment. Clearly, one of the biggest environmental They warned that without broad agreement on tools challenges is tackling climate change. As a country, we and policies to encourage the use of green fuels, energy have adopted the legally binding target of net zero by companies will not put up the trillions of dollars of 2050, and I strongly welcome that. A huge body of capital investment required to meet the needs of the work is needed to achieve it. aviation industry. In many areas, progress is already quite advanced. I know that different approaches are already under Electricity is now 40% renewable, largely from wind consideration. For example, in August, the European energy, which is an enormous achievement compared Commission signalled it was considering an EU-wide with what was expected 20 years ago. Electric cars requirement for a minimum amount of sustainable fuel are not quite commonplace, but they are becoming on flights. However, we need to get to a place where commonplace. The technology is well advanced and even if different trading blocks have their own methods, proven; they are fantastic cars to drive and we now have we are driven by common targets so the pace of switching a Government target of abolishing the sale of internal to sustainable fuels can be accelerated. Will the Minister combustion engines by 2040 and we are consulting on respond to the concerns of the chief technology officers 2035, which I certainly support. and work with our international partners to ensure that we do not miss out on these opportunities? Aviation, however, is a conundrum, because it is a growing source of national emissions overall—now 8%, Decarbonisation of aviation will also rely heavily on increased from 5% five years ago—yet it is a very market-based mechanisms in the short to medium term, difficult source of emissions to tackle. We are not quite so it is vital that these transitions run smoothly. Many there, as we are in other areas. aircraft operators that participate in the EU emissions trading scheme will also participate in the new UK There are those who would say, “Well, we should stop emissions trading scheme. Will the Minister update us flying. Fly less. Make it so expensive to fly that people on how we will link those two schemes, as set out in the cannot go on holidays.” I absolutely do not support future relationship with the EU25? that, for the reasons echoed by colleagues. Aviation is I will touch on a couple of issues that relate specifically jobs. My constituency is near Luton airport and Stansted. to jobs in the aviation sector. Sustainable aviation fuel is It is incredibly important in terms of leisure and business clearly required to meet our emissions targets and it will that people carry on flying. The challenge is to make create many jobs. We need to ensure that that investment sure that flying can be carbon neutral and that is why I and those jobs go where they are needed most. I would welcomed so strongly the launch of the Jet Zero Council argue that that is in the north-east. An airport scrappage earlier this year. scheme has also been promoted as reducing emissions Tackling aviation is difficult because electric batteries and creating the quieter aviation that many people want are too heavy to fly in planes. They do not have enough to see in the future. energy density to be able to fly a plane across the In addressing one of the immediate challenges we Atlantic. Low-carbon fuels are here, but they are still at face, I return to the comments of the Work and Pensions a fairly early stage of development. Aeroplanes also Secretary. If we encourage everybody currently in the tend to be long-lasting—fleets last for 40 or 50 years. It aviation sector to retrain as carers or teachers, we will is not like cars, which have quite a high turnover, so it is lose the vital skills base that we need to build sustainable easier to introduce new electric cars. aviation, fuels and aircraft of the future. The current However, there is a lot of innovation in this area, as approach in the job support scheme, which provides previous speakers have mentioned. My hon. Friend the only 67% of wages where those jobs cannot be undertaken, Member for South West Bedfordshire spoke at length does not go far enough. Greater investment in retaining about the Whittle Laboratory, which is just on the edge those skills and supporting those jobs now, as well as of my constituency—it is just outside, so I cannot claim the jobs we will need in the future, is vital. it is mine, but it is a fantastic laboratory. Imperial War My final argument is that when we get things right on Museum Duxford is also in South Cambridgeshire. It is a cross-party basis and a governmental and business known for its Battle of Britain aeroplanes and a Concorde, collaboration basis, a strong workers’ voice is always in but it also has an AvTech—aviation technology sector— there too. If we really want to make the Jet Zero development, co-launched with Gonville and Caius College. Council work, we should have workers’ representation The first company there is Faradair, an electric aviation and the voice of workers, working with business and company. It is developing a bioelectric hybrid aircraft, Government to maximise its potential. with the first flight aimed for 2023. It is aiming for an all-electric aircraft by 2030. It has a lot of energy and 2.58 pm bright ideas and is definitely worth supporting. Anthony Browne (South Cambridgeshire) (Con): I Obviously, it is not only the UK that is doing this. echo the sentiments of my colleagues. It is great to be Flight is of its nature international and the International here at your first debate, Mrs Miller. It is also great to Civil Aviation Organisation has been doing a lot of 171WH Jet Zero Council 14 OCTOBER 2020 Jet Zero Council 172WH

[Anthony Browne] I pay tribute to Sustainable Aviation, which is a coalition that brings together the aviation sector––airlines, work trying to co-ordinate the industry.It has committed manufacturers, airports––to work across the sector and to a 2% annual increase in fuel efficiency. It has a global move towards sustainable aviation and clean flight. It offsetting scheme—CORSIA—which starts in 2021. It has done incredible work over a number of years to is supporting sustainable aviation fuels and better air drive and focus the sector on the issue. It has been a traffic management, which has been quite important for delight to work with it in recent years in some of the increasing the efficiency of aviation, as we have seen roles that I have played in this place. over the past five years or so. My hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Richard Developments are definitely gathering pace. EasyJet Graham) mentioned that the UK has led the world in is planning its first short-haul electric flights by 2030, innovation in aviation for over 100 years. I see another which would be very impressive. Norway—I am half- great opportunity before us as a country to once again Norwegian and am very proud of Norway—has the take a lead, and lead the world in developing clean aim that all short-haul flights should be electric by 2040 flight. I am delighted that the Prime Minister set out in and all electricity in Norway is renewable, so that would his characteristic way a positive vision for the country be completely carbon neutral, and it is investing in that. to get behind and work towards having the first With all these developments, there is a huge opportunity zero-emission transatlantic flight. It is a vision that I for the UK. We absolutely need to make it a national wholeheartedly get behind. mission. If we are ahead of the curve, there are huge Aviation is crucial to today’s world for trade and the export opportunities as well. economy.We all know the huge challenges that the sector On recommendations and policy, I would be interested, faces now, but we have to believe that that will be first, in including international aviation emissions in the reversed and that we will once again have a growing, 2050 target of net zero. Domestic aviation emissions are thriving aviation sector. We should use this moment as a already in that target, but I understand the Government great opportunity to make significant change that perhaps are thinking about the international emissions. That would have taken some time to develop but that, with would be a good step, in order to put pressure on the some focus, could happen more quickly than it would sector and make it part of the national mission to otherwise have done. I believe that we will see that in become net zero. many areas of our economy. Secondly, we should think about nature-based carbon Moving towards clean flight can very much be part of offsets. Offsetting has a slightly bad name, because that. As several hon. Members have highlighted, we are schemes are often not very robust. They can be made making progress. There are some great and exciting robust, however, and the Government should think developments such as sustainable biofuels and electric about having a universal mandate on airlines, to give and hydrogen-powered flight, all of which will help the passengers an option for a robust offsetting of their sector become the clean way of getting around that we flights. We could end up with lots more money for tree want it to be. I know that some people are sometimes planting, which would be wonderful. cynical about this but there is no doubt of the Government’s We need to do a lot more work to develop sustainable commitment to get to net zero by 2050. We are leading aviation fuels, as we have heard. There needs to be a the world as the only developed nation that has made whole regime to support the development and take-up that legal commitment. We should use this as an of sustainable aviation fuels. For example, aviation duty opportunity to take a lead globally and demonstrate to is not taxed because it is cross-border and it has been the world that clean flight is within the realms of impossible to get international agreement, so we have possibility in the very near future. air passenger duty on flights taking off. We could think about moving to a system where air passenger duty I believe that the current attitude often shown towards reflected the efficiency of aeroplanes in the way that flying––that it is the dirty way of getting around and we vehicle excise duty reflects the efficiency of cars. It may should all feel bad every time we get on a plane––can be be too early to do that yet, but we could certainly move changed. We can get to the point of zero-emission flight in that direction. in the coming years. At that point, flight will become the chosen way to travel quickly and cleanly both around We will not get a UK-only solution on this. We the UK and around the world. I genuinely believe that should try to lead the world but we definitely need to we can get to that point. Instead of being the dirty work with other countries. We should absolutely work cousin of transport, flying will be the green choice, internationally and that should be a big part of what because we can fly cleanly and get places quickly. That the Government are doing. This is a huge opportunity is the ambitious aim that we should focus on working for the UK and we really must take advantage of it. We towards. need a massive national commitment and the Jet Zero Council can lead the UK on this, and I commend the I know the Minister well and he will not be at all Government’s work on it. surprised that I want to raise my belief that our current challenges demand a response from the Government to ensure that we have everything in place to grasp this 3.5 pm opportunity in the next five to 10 years. Our regional Steve Double (St Austell and Newquay) (Con): It is a airports will be absolutely crucial, because the likelihood pleasure to serve with you in the Chair, Mrs Miller. I is that the first clean flights will be short-haul domestic congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for South flights. That is probably the first step, and if we do West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) on securing the not have successful and operating regional airports debate and on the excellent speech he gave in opening it across our country, we will not be able to make the most and the way he laid out the case so clearly. of the opportunity. 173WH Jet Zero Council 14 OCTOBER 2020 Jet Zero Council 174WH

I am genuinely concerned that if we do not support I have been contacted by Sustainable Aviation. Members the sector and our regional airports across the country, will know about that organisation and be aware of the some of them will be lost and closed. The chances are, if background. They have provided a detailed briefing they close as a result of the current crisis, there is every about the methods that Government could employ to likelihood that they may never open again. Heathrow obtain the target set by Jet Zero. They highlighted that will be there, Gatwick will be there, Manchester and the between 2005 and 2016 Sustainable Aviation’s member other big airports will be there—they will get through airlines carried 26% more passengers and freight, but this. It may be challenging, but they will get through they only grew CO2 emissions by 9%. That is a clear this and will still be with us for many years to come, but differential that has to be addressed. They have a our smaller regional airports—such as the one that I methodology, of which I am sure the Minister is aware, represent, Cornwall airport Newquay, and many others that I hope he will adopt. That would complement what across the country—face a crisis now. was said by the hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire, There is a risk that our smaller regional airports will who set the scene, and the other contributions that have be lost. If they are lost, the impact on the sector and on been made from both sides of the Chamber. our ability to fulfil our ambitions for clean aviation will The industry must be noted and celebrated. In a be greatly damaged. I say again to the Minister, who I world where many appear to exist only to find fault—society know gets this, but through him we can get a message to seems, in many cases, to be like that—I wish to congratulate the Treasury: we need to step up and provide more the industry for doing what it can to make sustainable support for the sector and in particular for our regional changes. Let us give credit where credit is due for the airports, because they are struggling with the challenge direct and positive attitude it has adopted to try and of the current crisis. If we want them to be there, to make sure we can move in the correct direction. survive and to thrive through this, they will need some Other Members have mentioned APD. The Democratic more support. Please will the Minister take a message Unionist Party is committed to that and has had many back to Government, in particular the Treasury, that if discussions with Government about it, although maybe they are serious about fulfilling those ambitions, we not with this Minister. To be fair, we did have a discussion need to do a bit more to help our regional airports? and a Zoom meeting about a fortnight ago, and APD was To wind up, the only way that we will achieve our mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast ambitions is by having a thriving aviation sector that East (Gavin Robinson)—I just recalled that now. APD has the funds to invest for the future. It will not happen is important for us, and the hon. Member for Newcastle if we do not have an aviation sector that is able to upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell) talked about have confidence about the future and to invest in the it as well. Many regions of the United Kingdom can future of aviation. Therefore, it is crucial at this time for gain from it. the Government to stand behind the sector and to My friend, the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire provide the support it needs, so that it can work with us (Anthony Browne), is keen on the idea of using hydrogen to achieve our great and exciting ambitions for clean to tackle the issue. He hopes that companies can be aviation. equipped with the skills and the interests to provide an opportunity to develop that. 3.13 pm The hon. Member for St Austell and Newquay (Steve Double) mentioned issues about electric energy. I Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): It is a pleasure to do not know much about that, but I read the papers with speak in this debate, Mrs Miller, and I thank the hon. some eagerness and I regularly see stories about electric Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) planes and electric flying. Many parts of the United for his contribution and for setting the scene. Kingdom have the ability and the interest to develop that. I have had so much email correspondence from different In February 2020, Sustainable Aviation members made constituents about this that I took the opportunity to a public commitment to reach net zero UK aviation make a contribution which, obviously, will be on the carbon emissions by 2050. That is a challenging target, United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland but if they have set it, they must think it is achievable. aspect, but very much coming from Strangford as well, They are the first national aviation body anywhere in because I have numerous aerospace industries in my the world to make such a pledge. The decarbonisation constituency. Therefore, if the Government take forward road map, published alongside the pledge, sets out a this strategy, which I hope they will, it will benefit my plan to achieve that by working with Ministers. It is constituency and, indeed, many others. This matter is clearly a partnership, because that it how it works and essential, and I am very thankful to the hon. Gentleman that is how they will gain their way forward. for securing the debate. The plan wants to do four things: commercialise I am pleased to see the Minister in his place, and to sustainable aviation fuels, SAF; invest in cleaner aircraft put that on the record. I understand that this is his and engine technology, although it is a challenging time second debate in Westminster Hall. I missed his first to do that because many planes are not being used and the one—I do not know how I did that, but there we are! I investment needed is not there, although there is a was not in the Chamber, so I was probably engaged methodology to do it; develop smarter flight operations; elsewhere. As I said, however, I am pleased to see him, and develop high-quality carbon offsets and removals. because we have a personal friendship and know each Under the plan, the UK will be able accommodate other. For the record, I have every confidence in him to 70% growth in passengers through to 2050. If we follow take on the mantle for all of us here together, collectively, this plan, I believe that we can deliver what the hon. Member and ensure the delivery, so that we can all benefit across for South West Bedfordshire asked us all to endorse and the whole of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and support,andtakenetemissionlevelsfromjustover30million Northern Ireland. tonnes of CO2 a year down to zero. 175WH Jet Zero Council 14 OCTOBER 2020 Jet Zero Council 176WH

[Jim Shannon] Ireland could benefit from the proposals that we have. We all need to feel the warmth of prosperity at a time I and others speak out on behalf of the aviation when lots of the news is not good. Indeed, it is sometimes sector not because of the jobs alone, but because, let us quite distressing. be honest, the best way for me to get to the House of I will conclude with this. It is clear that this is the time Commons is to fly. I fly from Belfast City to Heathrow for the Government to determine how serious we are to every Monday,or thereabouts, and go back on a Thursday. facilitate the conversion to jet zero. I look forward very Air travel for me is a way of getting here. For some it is a much to the Minister’s response to these and other necessity. It is a necessity for me and, I suspect, a proposals raised today by other hon. Members, by the number of those here in the Chamber, as well as others shadow spokesperson for the , among the 650 Members. When it comes to business and by Labour Members as well. I have an industry in and to flying, I support it as I believe it is a way forward. my constituency that I will support. I want to see it As with anything in life,changes need funding. I understand doing it well. I support Shorts/Bombardier, Magellan in that there is a request for £500 million of Government Ballywalter and other companies in Crossgar and elsewhere. funding over the forthcoming comprehensive spending I support all my aero industries. I encourage the review period to support SAF commercialisation and Government to put their money—if I can say this—where research and development. their mouth is and make the changes not only possible Figures are easy to look at, but when we think about but probable for the sake of the industry and the future them further then we realise how big they are. The of our planet, because we have a duty to do that. breakdown provides further clarification, which deserves Coming from an Orange background, I am not usually consideration. I am not disrespecting anybody, but it is one for plying green strategies, but this is a green not just another pledge. Some £429 million is requested strategy that we can all support. in the form of Government-backed loan guarantees for first-of-a-kind SAF facilities, so they will be paid back. Mrs Maria Miller (in the Chair): We now move on to The loan guarantees will help establish the UK as a the Front-Bench speeches. I ask Members to take about global leader in SAF. Kick-starting SAF production in 10 or 11 minutes. I call Mr Alan Brown. the UK will fully support the establishment of the first flagship SAF facility in the UK to unlock the wider 3.24 pm potential out there that we can all gain from. First-of-a-kind Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP): It is SAF facilities are very hard to finance. The reason why a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Miller. SA is looking for the loan guarantee is simple.Conventional I congratulate the hon. Member for South West bank debt is not available, or, if it is available, it is Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) on securing this debate offered at a prohibitively high cost, so it simply does not and leading it so admirably. I apologise in advance: I work out. A Government loan guarantee scheme that is have a funny feeling I will repeat a lot of what he said, tailored to meet the needs of emerging SAF technologies, but that shows agreement. He hoped for cross-party providing a proportion of the total capital required, support, and I think that will be the outcome of today’s would unlock private finance to fund the first commercial debate. scale facilities. Some £50 million in grants is required to help SAF technology providers transition from lower The hon. Gentleman correctly set out how important TRLs 3-6 and to support providers at higher TRLs to aviation is overall to the UK in terms of the £52 billion move to commercial scale. The UK is presently losing it brings to the economy. At the same time, we have to out to other countries that provide greater support and recognise, and reconcile with that fact, the challenge of grant funding. “Invest today for the return tomorrow” achieving net zero, despite an increase in demand going is what my mother would tell me. She made sure that forward. Interestingly, that concurs with the findings I followed that principle from the early age of 16, as I of Climate Assembly UK, which recently reported. As suspect many others also did. citizens, they accept that there will be a continued increase in the use of aircraft, but there need to be Fully exploiting the network of UK expertise will changes, in terms of some of the solutions outlined today, enable the UK to showcase cutting edge facilities, creating in order to get the balance right and achieve net zero. I a network of flagship SAF production facilities and note that they do not think that there should be quite as providing a clear path to commercialisation. Some big an increase in world aviation as is projected. £21 million is required as part of the £500 million that is talked about. It is £429 million in loan guarantees from As the hon. Gentleman set out, we obviously need to the Government, £50 million in grants, and £21 million find new solutions, with sustainable aviation fuels being to establish a UK clearing house to enable SAF testing. integral to that—I will return to that issue. He also That remains one of the major barriers to new fuel highlighted the hydrogen fuel system getting developed supply chains. Aviation fuels need rigorous testing to in his area—in Bedford. I wish that well. I also agree ensure that they meet the safety and quality standards with his calls for additional Government investment, for aviation, and the United Kingdom is home to some particularly the £25 million that he says is needed to get of the foremost experts in fuel testing and approval. the Whittle laboratory under construction next year. It Others have referred to the expertise that we have in the will be good to hear what the Minister says on that. United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. I also agree with the call for an airline scrappage I always say, and I will say it again: we are better together. scheme. That would obviously generate turnover of That is the way it should be. Even my colleague and aircraft in order to get new cleaner, greener aircraft, and friend on the front row, the hon. Member for Kilmarnock it could generate another spin-off—the work that would and Loudoun (Alan Brown), would have to endorse be involved in decommissioning the aircraft that were that to make things happen, we do that better together. scrapped. The Prestwick aerospace cluster, which is The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern adjacent to my constituency, is looking to move into 177WH Jet Zero Council 14 OCTOBER 2020 Jet Zero Council 178WH that market, so if the Government helped to incentivise need to look at the tax system in the round to incentivise the market with an aircraft decommissioning or scrappage use of clean green fuels and generate an income for scheme, that would certainly be really welcome. I would reinvestment in that sector. also like to suggest a bit of worker rep on the council. I The hon. Member for St Austell and Newquay (Steve hope that that is something the Government could Double), as always, stood up for regional airports, look at. including his own. I add my voice to the call for the The hon. Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) support of regional airports; that is vital. The hon. gave us a wee bit of a history lesson on the original jet Gentleman made the good point that the initial short-haul engine and spoke about the development of the electric flights will be between regional airports; we need to jet engine. Obviously, we want to see that developed. remember that. I do not quite share his belief in the Also mentioned was the importance, when a big company Prime Minister’s vision, but hopefully I will be proved such as Airbus is involved, of a UK-wide supply chain wrong and we will see that delivered in the future. and all the spin-off jobs that come from that. That is No debate would be complete without the hon. Member really important, and it is crucial that we remember that. for Strangford (Jim Shannon) speaking at length about the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Next up was the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Ireland and goading me about “better together”. It North (Catherine McKinnell). She said of her comments is great to see him back in his place, sticking up for the that hon. Members might pose the question, “How aerospace industry in his constituency and again does this relate to jet zero?” And I must admit that, highlighting the importance of sustainable aviation fuels initially during her contribution, I did wonder. But I and the ask of industry from the Government. It is accept the argument: we do have to sort out the here good to hear how much faith the hon. Gentleman has in and now because there is an aviation crisis that needs to the Minister. Hopefully, the Minister will repay that be resolved. She correctly highlighted the injustice that faith in his summing up and confirm the money that the has been perpetrated by BA and similar redundancies Government are going to invest. from easyJet. Unfortunately, the Government response Aviation, as we heard, is a vital sector for connectivity, has not been robust enough. I would remind people in outbound and inbound tourism, and even exports of the Chamber to support the Employment (Dismissal goods. For those reasons, it is vital that the industry is and Re-employment) Bill promoted by my hon. Friend supported. Tonight, I will be launching a petition on the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North support for the travel industry, because the Government (Gavin Newlands), the fire and rehire Bill, which would really need to step up to the mark there. stop companies such as BA treating their employees like On a positive note, I welcome the setting up of the Jet cattle, disposing of them and rehiring them on lower Zero Council. We want to see the green recovery in conditions. general and the UK Government have an opportunity I commend the hon. Lady’s work as co-chair of the to lead the way in sustainable aviation. It is fine to be a all-party parliamentary group on sustainable aviation. I world leader in terms of the legislation for 2050 net agree that there needs to be international collaboration zero, but we need the corresponding action and investment on the use of sustainable aviation fuels, and it is important to back that up. As others have said, the UK Government that we get jobs located where they are required and have missed out in the past in offshore and onshore where currently local economies might be struggling. wind, where there was not the drive or the vision in the The proposals for where the sustainable aviation fuels Government investment to make the UK world leading may be located back that up. It would create much-needed in that. The manufacturing and other aspects went jobs where they are actually required. elsewhere. As such, we need to step up to the plate in The hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire terms of net zero aviation. (Anthony Browne) also does good work, as chair of the As for being world leading, the Scottish Government all-party parliamentary environment group. He, too, set net zero legislation before Westminster, with an highlighted the importance of the challenge that we earlier date of 2045 for net zero, and they are the first have going forward on climate change. It was good to Government in the world to include international shipping hear about the work being undertaken with Faradair in and aviation within the net zero targets. They have also terms of hybrid and electric planes. Again, we hope that committed to decarbonising aviation by 2050. Can the that leads the way, but he correctly highlighted Norway, Minister advise whether the UK Government will follow which, yet again—it leads the way on so many things—has the SNP’slead in Scotland and the advice of the Committee a commitment for short-haul flights to be fully electric on Climate Change, which is to include international by 2040. It is worth noting that Norway leads the way in aviation emissions within their net zero targets? relation to electric vehicles, the use of renewable energy The UK is hosting COP26 in Glasgow next year, in terms of hydro, and its sovereign wealth fund, created which is a tremendous opportunity to lead the world in from its oil funds. We really need to look at Norway for a number of initiatives and commitments. The UK lessons and copy it instead of just always talking about Government’s “Decarbonising Transport: Setting the the UK being world leading. It is a fact that other Challenge” document stated: people do this. “Internationally, we are committed to negotiating in ICAO for a long-term emissions reduction goal for international aviation I agree with the suggestion about revisiting air passenger that is consistent with the temperature goals of the Paris Agreement, duty and reflecting the efficiency of aircraft emissions. I ideally by ICAO’s 41st Assembly in 2022.” think the Government need to look at that. Another Can the Minister advise what progress has been made elephant in the room, it seems to me, is the fact that regarding those negotiations and whether there are any kerosene, which is used mainly for aviation, is still zero commitments that can be included within the nationally duty rated. That is unsustainable going forward for trying determined contributions for COP26? That certainly to incentivise the use of sustainable aviation fuels. We would set a tremendous example. 179WH Jet Zero Council 14 OCTOBER 2020 Jet Zero Council 180WH

[Alan Brown] 3.36 pm

As we have heard, one of the key aims of the Jet Zero Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): It is a pleasure Council is the delivery of sustainable aviation fuels to see you in the Chair, Ms Miller. I congratulate the plans. Again, that is a chance to be world leading, but hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew action is needed fast, especially as we have heard that Selous) on securing the debate. The fact that we had Norway has mandated airlines to reduce the amount of contributions from Members with constituencies as far standard aviation fuel that they use. France and Germany afield as Strangford and St Austell and Newquay, taking are driving and leading sustainable aviation fuel in Gloucester, Newcastle upon Tyne North and South collaboration, so the UK needs to move fast. Cambridgeshire on the way, says an awful lot. Each Member stressed the importance of the sector to their Other hon. Members, particularly the hon. Members constituency. I was on the board of London Luton for Strangford and for South West Bedfordshire,highlighted airport a long time ago, when I was a councillor in the need for the Government to provide the £500 million Luton, and I appreciate the importance of the airport asked for, which would deliver the private investment to the town and to Dunstable and the wider area. Of to see sustainable aviation fuel plants up and running course, now I am a Bristol MP, and we have a vibrant in the UK. In terms of the Government-backed loan aerospace sector—and we are home to Concorde, although guarantees, I suggest that if the Government can find I note that the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire £20 billion for Hinkley power station, and potentially (Anthony Browne) says that he has a Concorde as well. another £40 billion for two more power stations, the Technically ours is just over the border in Filton, but I £500 million over a period of five years is quite a small think Bristol lays claim to those areas when it is in our ask. I look forward to the Minister’s confirming that in interest to do so. his summing up. When we look further, we have renewable transport We all know how important the subject of the debate fuel obligations to further incentivise the use of sustain- is and, particularly at such a difficult and challenging able aviation fuel. The hon. Member for South West time for the sector, it is important to take a considered, Bedfordshire also touched on airspace modernisation. nuanced approach to the issues that we are discussing. That in itself will facilitate a reduction in emissions, by We might, if we had had the debate much earlier in the allowing more efficient flightpaths, but the modernisation year, have been able to focus purely on decarbonisation programme is currently at risk because it is being delivered and the need to make progress with that in the sector, by NATS, which relies on income from airlines. Reduced but covid has, as with so many other things, turned numbers of flights mean reduced income for NATS, everything in the aviation world on its head. There have, and that puts the modernisation programme at risk. as we have heard, been unprecedented falls in demand Direct support from Government is something else that for flights because of the pandemic. The sector has the Minister needs to consider. faced immense financial hardship and it is predicted that it will not fully get back to its feet until 2023 or 2024 —or, given the degree of uncertainty, who knows? Richard Graham: On nuclear power, does the hon. Gentleman agree that one of the crucial things about Now, therefore, the discussion of decarbonisation the electrification of short-haul flights is that we will must also deal with how to save aviation jobs in the need more electricity? In that context it is important to short term, ranging from those in manufacturing, replace our nuclear power stations, to generate that technology and design to those in airports and airlines, electricity. and the supply chain. We should not forget the many small companies that also rely on the industry and need Alan Brown: Yes, I agree it is important. They need to to be part of the shift. It is one thing to consult bigger be replaced because half the existing nuclear power companies as part of the Jet Zero Council, but for every stations will be phased out in the next four years. big company at the forefront of innovation there will be However, they do not need to be replaced by nuclear; many other small and medium-sized enterprises that they should be replaced by renewable energy,so I absolutely rely very much on being taken along on the journey. do not agree on that point. Labour has called for a sector-specific package for We also heard about Airbus being a Jet Zero member, aviation, which will be conditional not just on the and how it is developing the ZEROe hydrogen aircraft. protection of jobs—including an end to firing and We look forward to hydrogen aircraft being up and rehiring on inferior contracts—but on progress in meeting running. I draw Members’ attention to a post-briefing environmental targets. It is important that those two note that highlights the fact that hydrogen emits twice objectives should be intertwined. Some nations uncritically as much water vapour as existing jet fuel. That is a bailed out their aviation sectors because of the pandemic potential issue, and perhaps the Jet Zero Council could without considering the climate impacts, but other nations look at that, in collaboration with the Government. The have been both ambitious in protecting their aviation sectors need for wider sector support from the Government, by and sensitive to the need to decarbonise the sector. doubling of Aerospace Technology Institute funding to France, for example, provided more than ¤15 billion, much £330 million a year, is also rightly identified. What of it to Air France, conditional on a number of things. assessments have the Government made of those asks? For example, France expects the airline to renew its fleet There seems to be cross-party support for Jet Zero and with more efficient aircraft; to source 2% of fuel from the aim to get net zero aviation by 2050, but there are sustainable sources by 2025; to achieve a 50% reduction clear asks for the Government, and I look forward to in carbon dioxide from domestic flights by the end of hearing the Minister confirm those financial commitments 2024; and to ensure that overall emissions from all that have been asked for around the tables. flights are halved by 2030. 181WH Jet Zero Council 14 OCTOBER 2020 Jet Zero Council 182WH

I welcome the Minister to his new post. I hope that emissions, such as the energy sector, as the hon. Member we hear from him how the UK can follow France in for South Cambridgeshire said. We are just not seeing taking such a lead, because this is too important an that for aviation. opportunity to miss, given that we need far more Aviation counted for 8% of UK emissions in 2019, intervention and investment in the aviation sector—more according to the Committee on Climate Change. I agree of a lead from the Government—than we perhaps would with the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire on in normal times. How can we maximise the opportunity the need to include international aviation emissions in to get the sector back on its feet and also accelerate the the UK’s net zero emissions legislation. Domestic aviation progress we all want to make towards net zero? emissions have fallen to some extent, but those international emissions are not currently included in that legislation. Intervention is desperately required, both to safeguard I do not know whether the Minister will have something jobs and to allow us to become world leaders. Setting up to say on that, because, as I understand it, the Government the Jet Zero Council, bringing together all those top have said that they want to look at how we can include minds in the industry to discuss the issues, is a good international aviation and shipping emissions in that start. However, as my hon. Friend the Member for target. That would act as a real incentive; rather than Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell) just focusing on emissions from domestic flights, which said, it is a notable omission that there are no workplace are a tiny minority of journeys, we must look at the representatives on the council. I hope the Minister will international picture. address that in his response, because this is very much about everyone involved in the sector, not only the The hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire also companies behind it. talked about carbon offsetting and planting trees, and options such as those must all be included. We also need I confess that, when I first took on the role of shadow to consider the issue of aviation demand, once passenger Minister for green transport, I was quite sceptical about numbers start to return to normal levels. The debates some of the claims about sustainable aviation fuel being around airport expansions and attributing responsibility the way forward. There was lots of talk about sucking remain important conversations to have, particularly given carbon out of the sky, but it was not really backed up by the recent court ruling against Heathrow expansion. much science in the debates or the representations that I An estimated 70% of all flights in Britain are taken heard. In the six months that I have been in this job, and by just 15% of adults, and I think the Treasury is due to having had so many meetings with people, I have been consult on the potential for greening aviation taxation on a steep learning curve, and I now think there is huge soon. We need to look at how aviation can achieve a potential for us to make progress in developing sustainable sustainable level of demand and remain affordable for aviation fuels. As well as speaking to sustainable aviation ordinary families. I am certainly not arguing that ordinary figures, I have spoken to Velocys, which is pioneering families should not have the right to fly, travel and go production in the UK; I think it has £500,000 funding on holidays, but I would argue that we need to place for a centre in Immingham. The hon. Member for more responsibility on the minority of frequent flyers. South West Bedfordshire talked about it trying to create Perhaps covid has alerted people to the fact that they do sustainable aviation fuel from waste, which is a really not necessarily need to fly across the world for a business interesting development. meeting—there are things such as Zoom now. The UK’s I also met the Electric Aviation Group, which has a replacement for the EU’s emissions trading scheme may connection with Bristol and with companies such as well be another opportunity to green aviation taxation Airbus. Unfortunately, it has not been invited to join appropriately, so I hope we see some ambition from the the Jet Zero Council—I have just had a letter back from Government on that in the coming months. the Minister about this—but it is working on a hybrid To conclude, I urge the Government to balance things electric aircraft for UK skies. It was interesting to hear out: in the longer term, the Jet Zero Council is a very from the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire that exciting proposition, but we know that it will not deliver easyJet is also looking to develop an electric plane soon. the solutions that we need to deal with aviation emissions The Electric Aviation Group says that, eventually, easyJet in the short term. Alternative fuels have a role to play could probably fly hybrid planes to most destinations but, given the crisis in aviation, what we need from the that it flies to in the future. It is obviously a bit more Government now is a coherent package that looks complicated for longer-haul flights. Hydrogen was ahead to international leadership at COP, but also mentioned by a number of Members, and the fact that looks at how we can save jobs, reskill people who work Airbus, for example, is exploring it via its ZEROe in the aviation and aerospace sectors, and create those concept. We obviously want to go down the path of jobs of the future—saving the industry and saving the clean, green hydrogen if we can, rather than blue hydrogen. planet at the same time. I hope that the Jet Zero Council helps us move on to that path. 3.47 pm As I said, it is quite exciting how much has been done The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport on sustainable aviation fuels. I think that a lot of (Robert Courts): It is a great pleasure to serve under progress will be made in the next few years. As other your chairmanship, Mrs Miller, particularly on your Members said, that in itself does not address the immediate first day in Westminster Hall. I thank and congratulate issue, which is that—putting to one side covid and the my hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire fall in aviation emissions that we have had as a result of (Andrew Selous) on securing this very important debate people just not flying—the trend of the last decade is and giving colleagues across the House, after listening aviation emissions either stagnating or increasing, whereas to his speech—which, if I may so, had great expertise other sectors have been pretty successful in cutting and eloquence—the opportunity to discuss the crucial 183WH Jet Zero Council 14 OCTOBER 2020 Jet Zero Council 184WH

[Robert Courts] the need for holding stacks. Several hon. Members have rightly mentioned sustainable aviation fuels, SAFs, which subject of tackling climate change. I also thank him for are a major part of the picture. Wecan achieve substantial providing me with an opportunity to highlight how the greenhouse gas savings compared with fossil fuels, and United Kingdom is showing, and planning to show, these will play an important role in the transition to bold and ambitious leadership in this area, including net zero. through the new Jet Zero Council. He has— We are looking to build a sustainable aviation fuel industry in the UK, reducing emissions further, securing Mrs Maria Miller (in the Chair): Order. May I gently green growth and supporting the jet zero agenda for ask the Minister to address the Chair and not the hon. post-covid-19 economic recovery. By 2040, this sector Member? could generate between £0.7 billion and £1.7 billion per Robert Courts: I beg your pardon, Mrs Miller. It is annum for the UK economy, with potentially half of only my second debate, so that is a schoolboy error at that coming from the export of intellectual property the beginning. I shall ensure that I address the Chair. and provision of engineering services. This industry could create between 5,000 and 11,000 green jobs, My hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire disproportionately in areas of regeneration. We are is quite right to view this matter in a positive and already supporting this sector through recent changes forward-looking way. My hon. Friend the Member for to the renewable transport fuels obligation and the South Cambridgeshire (Anthony Browne) made the same capital funding that is available through the future fuels point, and I agree entirely with that sentiment. Last year, for flight and freight competition. the UK maintained its place at the vanguard of reducing carbon emissions and became, as my hon. Friend the We now have the opportunity to further capture the Member for St Austell and Newquay (Steve Double) is economic and environmental benefits of this technology. right to point out, the first major economy in the world Weare working across Government and with stakeholders to set a 2050 net zero target. in industry, such as Sustainable Aviation, as mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for St Austell and It is critical that aviation plays its part in delivering Newquay, to build upon the existing package of support, the UK’s net zero ambitions. My hon. Friend the Member to effectively scale up SAF production in the UK and to for St Austell and Newquay also pointed out that there drive down its costs. is opportunity here. We are in the vanguard of the biggest step forward in British aviation since the post-war Alan Brown: What about the £500 million ask from era, a step in which this incredible industry continues its the industry to get various plans up and running? global leadership in the fight against climate change. I will dwell at the outset on a point made by my hon. Robert Courts: I thank the hon. Gentleman for making Friend the Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham). that point. We will be consulting with all stakeholders He is quite right that succeeding in this challenge will across industry to see what can be done. I cannot make benefit not only the planet, but the economy, because that commitment at this stage, but I have heard what he this would potentially give us a share of a market has said and it will be taken forward. expected to be worth £4 trillion globally by 2050. To return to the subject of the debate, having talked We already have a range of programmes supporting about some of the short-term and medium-term steps research and technology on zero-emission flight, including that we are taking, let me turn to the Jet Zero Council in the Aerospace Technology Institute programme, which the medium to longer term. The UK will continue to has £1.95 billion of public funding committed for 2013 deliver on the measures that I have mentioned, but that to 2026, and the Future Flight Challenge of £125 million is not enough. Decarbonising aviation will not be of public funding. These programmes have helped to straightforward, but I want us to stop viewing this as a deliver incredible progress in recent decades in the fuel challenge and instead view it, as many hon. Members efficiency of commercial aircraft. The hon. Member for have said, as an opportunity. Britain has always led the Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) made an important way on aviation and we will continue to do so. There is a point about the short-term steps that can be taken to huge prize in sight: developing the sector that meets the help with sustainable aviation. Fuel efficiency in the challenges of the future. We will be front and centre, short term for commercial aircraft is an important and capturing the first mover advantages. significant first step in reducing carbon emissions. In July, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) is for Transport created the Jet Zero Council, a partnership quite right to point out the steps that industry has between the aviation industry and Government to reduce taken. It is good to see him back in his place. I thank aviation’s carbon footprint and put the sector on a path him for his kind comments. Although he missed yesterday’s to net zero emissions by 2050. The Jet Zero Council debate, he will be glad to know that his hon. Friend the brings together Ministers and CEO-level stakeholders Member for South Antrim (Paul Girvan) mentioned from every part of the aviation sector. It is a technical, him in the debate, so he was here in spirit, if not in body. focused body. It can only have a finite membership, The Government will continue to look at the further but I have heard the points made by my hon. Friend support that we can provide to the ATI and, in turn, the Member for South West Bedfordshire, and the places such as the Whittle laboratory,which was mentioned, hon. Members for Newcastle upon Tyne North to support our zero-emission flight ambitions. (Catherine McKinnell), for Kilmarnock and Loudoun Several hon. Members mentioned airspace modern- (Alan Brown) and for Bristol East about the importance isation, which is a key part of the overall picture, as is of workers. They are crucial to the success of our net the case with airport emissions.Our airspace modernisation zero ambitions, and we will make sure that we fully programme will allow aircraft to fly more direct routes, engage with their representatives as the work of the Jet using performance-based navigation systems, and reduce Zero Council progresses. 185WH Jet Zero Council 14 OCTOBER 2020 186WH

The council will drive the ambitious development Capital Infrastructure Projects: Bristol and delivery of new technologies and innovative ways to cut aviation emissions, utilising multiple perspectives [MS NUSRAT GHANI in the Chair] and bold new thinking. That will include developing and industrialising clean aviation and aerospace technologies, 4.13 pm establishing UK production facilities for sustainable aviation fuels, and implementing a co-ordinated approach Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): I beg to move, to the policy and regulatory framework needed to deliver That this House has considered support for capital infrastructure net zero aviation by 2050. projects in Bristol. It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Ms Ghani. The council’s focus on clean aviation technologies has been echoed by the Prime Minister, who set out the The Mayor of Bristol, Marvin Rees, is very keen to Government’s ambition for the UK to demonstrate a promote what he calls the “One City” approach. It is zero emissions transatlantic flight. In July, the Secretary not the job of one organisation or one individual to of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy deliver what Bristol needs; it is for the whole city to announced the launch of the Aerospace Technology come together. In that spirit, rather than taking up my Institute’s FlyZero project. Funded by the Government, allotted 15 minutes today,I will share it with my colleagues the 12-month project brings together experts from across —my hon. Friends the Members for Bristol North West the aviation and aerospace sectors to establish the (Darren Jones) and for Bristol South (Karin Smyth). opportunities in designing and building a commercially We are even being extremely generous and allowing successful zero emissions aircraft. Last month, I saw the someone from over the border in south Gloucestershire fruits of that work: a trial flight of a hydrogen electric to contribute—the right hon. Member for Kingswood aircraft made possible by £2.7 million of Government (Chris Skidmore). My hon. Friend the Member for funding through the ATI’s HyFlyer project. Bristol West (Thangam Debbonaire) cannot take part Things are currently incredibly difficult for the aviation in the debate, as she is a member of the , sector, as we all understand and as a number of hon. but she is with us in spirit. Members have referred to. The unpredictable covid-19 Bristol is generally seen as a really buzzing, thriving infection rate makes it difficult to plan ahead, but the city.We are always being listed as one of the top 10 places sector will recover, and when it does, we want it to come to visit or to live. We are a net contributor to UK GDP, back better than ever before—more sustainable, cleaner, we have the highest number of net start-ups outside greener and even more ambitious. Covid-19 has meant London and, as of September last year, we had the that people have had to profoundly change the way they highest employment rate of the UK core cities. However, live, work and travel, and it is only right that aviation as with any city, there are challenges too. There are changes to become greener as we build back. I encourage inequalities in income and opportunities. There is poor all hon. Members to actively support the UK’s leading transport infrastructure and a desperate need for new role in sustainable clean aviation. Our aviation industry affordable housing. and our economy depend on it. It was revealed at the weekend that the biggest increase in house prices in the whole UK over the last decade 3.56 pm was in Easton ward, which was in my constituency but Andrew Selous: I thank the Minister for his response is now in Bristol West. Prices there went up 120%, from and I thank hon. Members, from pretty much the whole £129,000 to £283,000. The neighbouring Whitehall ward of the United Kingdom, who have contributed. Three was eighth in the country; prices had gone up 102%. central points stand out. First, how do we get from here These are fairly modest houses. We need to build far to there? We have to bear in mind everyone who works more housing, and more affordable housing. We also in aviation today who is having a really tough time. We need to build on our economic success by regenerating do not want to lose those skills and we have to look neglected parts of the city. The biggest scheme is the after those people. Secondly, the urgency of the climate regeneration of Temple quarter, around Brunel’s historic challenge, which my hon. Friend the Member for South Temple Meads station. This would mean 22,000 new Cambridgeshire(AnthonyBrowne)talkedabout,ispressing. jobs, at least 10,000 new homes and an economic boost Coronavirus cannot stop us recognising that. Thirdly, of £1.6 billion per annum. The Secretary of State wrote we have to keep the UK in a world-leading position, so to the Mayor last month saying Temple quarter showed that jobs and the high skill value are here in the UK. a lot of promise and had impressive private sector I am encouraged by the Minister’s response. He talked backing. about bold and ambitious leadership, keeping the UK There are two shovel-ready elements of the scheme. front and centre, and keeping our first mover advantage— The first is the regeneration of Temple quarter and Mrs Maria Miller (in the Chair): Order. There is a St Philip’s Marsh district. A business case has already Division in the House. I will have to suspend the sitting been submitted to the Department and to Homes England. for 15 minutes. Bristol is asking for funding of £100 million. Secondly, the University of Bristol’s new Temple quarter enterprise Andrew Selous: I have finished. campus is an innovation hub with a focus on digital Question put and agreed to. quantum technology, engineering and green growth. Resolved, The university is asking for £150 million from the That this House has considered the work of the Jet Zero Council. Government, which will leverage £650 million of investment from the university and its partners. 3.58 pm It is estimated that this development would bring an Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. estimated £626 million into the regional economy over the next decade and act as a catalyst for a further £2 billion of development on adjacent sites. In the short 187WH Capital Infrastructure Projects: 14 OCTOBER 2020 Capital Infrastructure Projects: 188WH Bristol Bristol [Kerry McCarthy] forthcoming “One City” partnership meetings to hear how we are trying to lead the city out of a potential to medium term, this obviously means jobs in construction recession and how to support these key capital projects? and in the long term many more employment opportunities will arise. I know the Government are very keen to Ms Nusrat Ghani (in the Chair): Before I ask other support shovel-ready projects. In this case, a contractor Members to respond, I alert Members that this debate is on board, planning permissions have been secured will not go beyond 4.43 pm. and construction could start in January 2021 with the campus opening in 2023. Because of covid, without 4.20 pm Government support the project will be delayed by at Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab): It is a pleasure to least three to five years. serve under your chairship, Ms Ghani, and I congratulate The other Temple quarter projects are the upgrading my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol East (Kerry and renewal of Temple Meads station to support a McCarthy) on securing the debate. We love our city, and doubling of passenger numbers to 22 million per year, we are proud to represent it. As well as generating increased rail capacity and faster trains. The last major wealth and opportunity for our constituents, Bristol is upgrade to Temple Meads station was in 1936, and I the driver of the economy of the wider west of England think anyone who regularly uses the station will not be and, indeed, that of the south-west of England. The surprised to hear that. It is not a station that befits a city debate has a far-reaching effect for the Government. of Bristol’s standing and size and it desperately needs For too long, however,parts of Bristol have been overlooked work. in wealth distribution and infrastructure development, Wealso need investment in flood resilience infrastructure meaning that the inequalities across the city continue to to help future proof our city against climate change, to blight many communities, including some of mine in protect our heritage tourism and cultural sites, and Bristol South. Today, I draw the Minister’s attention to improve cycling and walking routes. It would also unlock some of the shovel-ready projects that will go some way land for up to 4,500 homes, protect 12,000 existing homes towards levelling up opportunities for my constituents. and businesses from flooding and add £6.2 billion to the The first amongst those is Hengrove Park, Bristol’s local economy. largest housing development site set to deliver around 1,400 homes. It is a 25-hectare public park with a This may sound like just a long list of asks, but all we potential for around 6,000 new jobs. Long envisaged as ask for today is that the Government seriously consider a critical part of rebalancing the city’s economy, key the case Bristol and the West of England Combined parts of the plan are already in place: South Bristol Authority have made when it comes to bids where we Community Hospital, funded by the last Labour might compete against other cities and towns for existing Government after 60 years of local campaigning; South pots of money or future allocations. Wewere disappointed Bristol Skills Academy, the only college in Bristol South; to be turned down for the housing infrastructure fund and the site of a soon-to-be-completed advanced for the A4-A37 Temple Meads to Keynsham strategic construction centre. We will have a ready-made source growth corridor, which runs through my constituency. of cutting-edge skills to help rebuild our economy and Wealready have huge pressures on the A4 and surrounding retrain people for the future, while offering quality roads, yet thousands more homes could be built in the apprenticeships to local people. But we need the final vicinity in the next few years, partly in Bristol, but also part of the jigsaw: the houses and supporting infrastructure over the border in the neighbouring local authority of to breathe new life into the project. Will the Minister Bath and North East Somerset. The pressure will come support the council’s request for £35 million investment on the Bristol roads, however, as people travel into the for the enabling infrastructure, and demonstrate to the city to work and for leisure and shopping. Those homes people of Bristol South that they are included when the are desperately needed, but the city will grind to a halt if Government talk about levelling up opportunities across we do not also invest in public transport. We also need the country? to look at the pressure on schools, GPs and other local services. As my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol East said, transport is key to the city’s economic recovery. In a city I hope that if a successor to the housing infrastructure historically hampered by poor transport links and a fund is announced in the spending review, any submission somewhat ageing road network, it is right that our city from Bristol will be looked on favourably. We hope too leaders are seeking to scope out an ambitious vision to that the Department and Homes England will consider deliver an innovative and low-carbon transport system the business case for Temple quarter. We know that as a for the city region. In the immediate term, I draw the city we can deliver, but we need help to do so. Minister’sattention to the long-awaited and much-delayed Before I hand over to my colleagues, I have three reopening of the Portishead line, which runs through questions for the Minister. First, how will the Government my Bristol South constituency and will massively ease support Bristol in seeking integrated investment to unlock congestion and support development around the Ashton its strategic development sites, including the shovel-ready Gate area. The project has been in incubation for long projects in Temple quarter? Secondly, my colleagues decades. North Somerset Council completed a submission will talk about transport issues in more detail, some of of the development consent order that was accepted by which concern the , but other the planning inspectorate to proceed to examination Government Departments are involved too. Given the last December. At such a critical time, this is low-hanging different funding streams and the role of different infrastructure fruit for the Minister. It will create jobs Departments, how can the Minister ensure that the and opportunities, and if there is a rationale to wait strategic value of each of Temple quarter’s interconnected another year then perhaps he will write to let us know projects are realised and supported? Finally, will the why. Otherwise, I implore him to talk to his colleagues Minister agree to visit Bristol or attend one of our and hurry up. We are desperate for that to happen. 189WH Capital Infrastructure Projects: 14 OCTOBER 2020 Capital Infrastructure Projects: 190WH Bristol Bristol I echo my hon. Friend’s comments in support of the phases 1 and 2 are realised. That would allow people to city’s largest infrastructure project at Temple quarter. travel from the Severn Beach line through to Bath via Located partly in my constituency,it is of vital importance Temple Meads without changing trains. The proposed to the city’s economic recovery and will offer significant additional housing that was mentioned—I think it would jobs and training opportunities locally, as well as helping be around Hengrove—would also be extremely welcome, improve the city’s connectivity. I draw the Minister’s because it would help to protect surrounding green-belt attention alongside that to the electrification of the land for the region. railway from Bristol Temple Meads to Weston-super-Mare. In conclusion, although I am a proud south It has been agreed by the Department, but has been Gloucestershire MP, I am also a proud Bristolian who paused. Bizarrely, any train running along that line is wants a visionary future for our city and our region, currently forced to switch off its electricity when it hits and the landmark projects that have been mentioned Bristol and to turn to diesel, because the electric line today will go a long way to delivering that future. ends there. That means that my constituents in Totterdown are forced to suffer the pollution of diesel fumes as the train chugs down to Weston-super-Mare and beyond. 4.26 pm This is another freebie for the Government wanting Darren Jones (Bristol North West) (Lab): It is a shovel-ready projects that will offer jobs while reducing pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Ghani. carbon emissions. I look forward to the Minister’sthoughts I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol and, of course, alongside my hon. Friend the Member East (Kerry McCarthy), who is a learned and veteran for Bristol East, to welcoming him to Bristol South so MP, for securing this important debate today. We have that he can see the opportunities for himself. already heard the cross-party support for the shovel-ready projects in Bristol: the Temple quarter project, Bristol 4.23 pm Temple Meads and the University of Bristol campus. Wehave also heard the rationale for that development—that Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con): I thank the hon. it would not only contribute to the local area but to the Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) for calling regional and national economy. this debate and for kindly allowing me to contribute today. Although I am the Member for Kingswood in In north Bristol in 2018, we concluded our north south Gloucestershire, I wanted to voice my support for Bristol transport plan, when my constituents and I, and the capital projects she mentions. We may represent stakeholder groups, prioritised investment to deal with different political parties, but I believe we represent a commuter traffic. We know that the Greater Bristol common goal which is to enrich the Bristol region and region is growing at speed. We also know from the to increase investment in it. In particular, I wanted to Minister’s Department’s algorithm that the number of express my support for the Temple quarter district houses being built in the south Gloucestershire area is proposals and for the University of Bristol’s Temple due to increase significantly, and with that will come quarter enterprise campus. As a former universities more commuter traffic, on top of the problems that we Minister,I have seen first-hand the layout of the proposals, already have in that regard. and as someone who started out his career teaching at That is why the mass transit system that connects the University of Bristol, I know that it will benefit not with the Temple Meads development project is so only the city but the whole of the Bristol and south important, because if we are to get the benefit of the Gloucestershire region. The Temple quarter development full economic opportunities from these developments in not only can regenerate an area of Bristol, realising its the city and from the attractiveness of our city region to full potential, but can unlock the potential for future many around the country, people need to be able to investment in innovation for the whole region. It is an move around easily to grow those economic opportunities. important bid, and several are being considered as part The last thing that I will say to the Minister is that we of the Government’s determination to level up the know, of course, that 30% of carbon emissions in the regions. west of England come from transport. We have been I am sure the Minister is aware of the future high talking about these issues for a very long time. As my street fund bid to transform Kingswood High Street. hon. Friend the Member for Bristol South (Karin Smyth) Although Kingswood is in south Gloucestershire, that mentioned, the Portishead line was first debated when I project would also benefit east Bristol, as Two Mile Hill was in primary school. I would quite like the projects joins my constituency with that of the hon. Member for that we are discussing today to be completed more Bristol East. The point I am trying to make is that we quickly than that. will all benefit from major projects that can transform I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response the region, which is why this proposal is also backed by today. I hope that he will consider the Mayor of Bristol’s the West of England Mayor, Tim Bowles, who has “One City”plan, which I think provides national leadership already made significant investment through the West about the way that we can work across stakeholders, of England Combined Authority in these projects,including parties and our regions to get the best for our country. I £55 million for the Temple quarter enterprise zone and also hope that the investment that we have called for £16 million for the university campus. However, as today will come forward, either in the comprehensive other Members have already said, we need investment spending review or in the later Budget. from central Government to realise these exciting projects. In addition, as has been mentioned, this development 4.28 pm will see desperately needed investment in Bristol Temple Meads station, which I believe could lead in turn to a The Minister for Housing (Christopher Pincher): It is transport revolution for the Bristol region that will benefit a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, all surrounding regions, particularly if the MetroWest Ms Ghani. 191WH Capital Infrastructure Projects: 14 OCTOBER 2020 Capital Infrastructure Projects: 192WH Bristol Bristol [Christopher Pincher] Bristol, where small, innovative businesses can prosper. I make this commitment on behalf of my right hon. Friend I congratulate the hon. Member for Bristol East the Chancellor: we will look carefully and considerately (Kerry McCarthy) on securing this short but important at all sensible projects that are brought forward. I will debate. It seems to me that she has set up shop in not make specific commitments on his behalf, but we Westminster Hall this afternoon. But in all seriousness, are keen to ensure that, through the spending review the debate that she has led is an important one. I also and through other avenues, buzzing and thriving cities congratulate the hon. Members for Bristol South such as Bristol are supported. I encourage colleagues (Karin Smyth) and for Bristol North West (Darren Jones), across the House and in local government to submit and the honoured interloper, my right hon. Friend the their thoughts and ideas for the spending review. Member for Kingswood (Chris Skidmore), on their contributions. Kerry McCarthy: I got the impression the Minister Let me begin on a very positive note, which is that I was concluding, but maybe I am wrong and there is a certainly enjoyed my visit to Bristol earlier this year, just lot more to come. It is important to stress that, although before the covid emergency caused us to have lockdown. Bristol is a successful, buzzing, thriving city, there are The rain did not alter the fact that it is clearly a buzzing inequalities, as we saw with the recent Black Lives and thriving city, as the hon. Member for Bristol East Matter protest, and the constituency of my hon. Friend described it, and I shall be very happy to visit it again the Member for Bristol South (Karin Smyth) has the when circumstances allow, to see the work that she, her lowest staying-on rates in education and higher education colleagues and other leaders from the city and the in the country. Bristol is very much a city where there combined authority are undertaking. are inequalities and a need to level up. As we lay the foundations for our recovery from the covid emergency, the Government are determined to Christopher Pincher: I hear what the hon. Lady says, invest in communities such as those in Bristol and and I will say a little more about the single housing across the western gateway, so that we can get them infrastructure fund in a moment. She will know, of back on their feet and fulfilling their potential. I am course, that a few weeks ago we announced our next heartened by what I have heard about the collaborative iteration of the affordable housing programme with work being done across the community and across the £12.3 billion of investment in affordable homes, the city, between leaders and partners, to realise their vision majority of which will be for discounted rents. for sustainability, activity and inclusive growth. It is To address a point the hon. Member for Bristol right that we look to build on that together South made about the Planning Inspectorate, I cannot and support our regions in this levelling-up opportunity, comment on specific matters before it, but I am always and that will be the focus of the upcoming spending keen to talk to colleagues there to ensure that the review. inspectorate is working at pace to quickly yet judiciously I understand that city leaders and the metro Mayor work its way through the applications and cases before are working together across sectors in response to the it. Of course, it has the challenge of the covid backlog pandemic to support the region’s journey to recovery. to deal with, but I know that people are working very The Government are also committed to playing their hard in that regard. part in providing immediate financial stimulus and The Government’s continued commitment to levelling capital infrastructure investment. The getting building up also means building the homes that this country fund is just one recent example of that commitment to needs, and I am glad to hear that Bristol has ambitious job creation and the green recovery, accelerating shovel- plans for house building. We remain committed to ready projects in local areas. It is a £900 million fund driving up supply in areas that really need it. I have targeted at places facing the greatest economic challenges mentioned the affordable homes programme, which we as a result of the pandemic. We announced more than believe will support 180,000 new affordable homes for 300 successful projects in August, which were agreed ownership and rent over the next four years in the with mayors and local enterprise partnerships to boost percentages that I described. economies and local growth. We have also supplied an additional £450 million to The west of England received £13.7 million in funding boost the home building fund to help small developers— for seven projects through the getting building fund, small and medium-sized enterprises are crucial in our and the seven projects are expected to directly create recovery—to access finance for new housing developments. 1,144 jobs. In addition, the west of England has secured As the hon. Member for Bristol East will know, we have £202 million from the local growth fund, which has radical plans to reform our planning system to make it helped to fund a number of important projects in the more democratic, transparent and speedy. city of Bristol, including £6 million for the Bristol Beacon, to transform that iconic music venue; £4.7 million Darren Jones: Will the Minister set out how his for the city of Bristol’s Advanced Construction Skills Department works with the Department for Transport Centre; and more than £7 million for the MetroWest when allocating funds for significant housebuilding to phase 1, which was referenced by several colleagues ensure that transport infrastructure is funded alongside earlier—a project that will see the reopening of the that? I and many of my constituents welcome the Portishead line and the introduction of half-hourly investment in housing—not just in Bristol, but in south services on the Severn Beach line, significantly improving Gloucestershire—but the commuter traffic problem is rail connections to and around Bristol. of great concern. The mass transit system, for example—the The region has seen a further investment through an development of Bristol Temple Meads and the extension £80 million transforming cities fund and £6 million of of the rail network—seems like an obvious investment funding to create an enterprise zone in the centre of that should go alongside housebuilding. 193WH Capital Infrastructure Projects: 14 OCTOBER 2020 Capital Infrastructure Projects: 194WH Bristol Bristol Christopher Pincher: The hon. Gentleman will know We recognise the key role of local partners in EU that the MetroBus system is already up and running, structural funds, and we will continue to work closely and there are plans to extend it further. As for his with interested parties across the United Kingdom on specific question, we work closely with other Departments the design of the new fund, taking into consideration on supra-regional issues—let us call them that. We also what has worked in the past and how we can best deliver have the single housing infrastructure fund, which is an on domestic priorities. Final decisions about the fund ambitious fund to ensure that we can provide the will take place after the spending review. I look forward infrastructure required to unlock the housing that is to further opportunities in this Chamber, or near to it, needed by his community and others—I will say a little to further update the House and colleagues. more about that in a moment. It is essential that we have the right infrastructure—the roads, schools and Karin Smyth: I appreciate the opportunity of yet GP surgeries—and it is right that that is put in place another fund, but I gently say to the Minister that we before people move in. That is one objective of our new have been talking today about projects that are ready planning proposals and of the infrastructure levy that and have been in the pipeline for a long time. We have we will put in place alongside the single housing gone through lots and lots of processes. We are all of infrastructure fund to ensure that the right infrastructure one mind, and we would like the Government to talk is put in place at the right time. across Departments, do a bit of joined-up thinking and In the short time remaining, I will say a few words focus, recognising how ready and willing we are to just about green recovery. Tackling climate change is also a get on with it. priority for the Government. Last year, the United Kingdom became the first country in the world to put Christopher Pincher: I am grateful for that prompt into law the ambition to wipe out our contribution to from the hon. Lady. I recognise the value engendered climate change by 2050. I am glad to hear from colleagues in the Temple quarter regeneration programme. All —either directly or outside the Chambers—that there propositions that are put forward have to be considered are projects for sustainable energy infrastructure in and carefully on their merits. There are some tight business around Bristol, and I will keep my eye on them. case requirements to meet. If they are not met—as with Investment is only part of the picture, however. If we the last housing infrastructure fund bid, unfortunately are to secure a rapid recovery from the pandemic, as for the proponents—I would encourage people not to well as deliver on our levelling-up agenda, we will need lose heart, but to redouble their efforts and submit a comprehensive place-based strategy with central again. Our ambitious fund is designed to help communities Government and local government working in lockstep that need support, and we are determined to give that to with businesses to target the specific challenges and them. opportunities that our communities face. The devolution I thank the hon. Member for Bristol East for leading and local recovery White Paper will be published by the the debate, and I congratulate all Members, including Minister for Regional Growth and Local Government, my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingswood on his who represents Thornbury and Yate and who will set contribution in support of the Temple quarter. I look out plans with cities such as Bristol, and their surrounding forward to looking closely at the propositions that have areas, at the heart of that vision. been made, and to debating them robustly, if necessary, I also want to mention the United Kingdom shared across the Chamber in due course. prosperity fund. I appreciate that local leaders want to Question put and agreed to. be on a secure financial footing so that they can continue to drive innovation and invest in local infrastructure, and that includes the certainty of replacement of EU Ms Nusrat Ghani (in the Chair): In order to allow the structural funds. The 2019 manifesto committed to safe exit of hon. Members participating in this item of creating a shared prosperity fund, which binds the business and the safe arrival of those participating in wholeUnitedKingdom,totackleinequalityanddeprivation the next, I am suspending the House for two minutes. in each of our four nations. The Government will create a fund that is easier for local areas to access and will further support places to recover from the effects of 4.42 pm covid-19. Sitting suspended. 195WH 14 OCTOBER 2020 Productivity: Rural Areas 196WH

Productivity: Rural Areas I am pleased the Government are offering more vocation-based skills learning and degree-level 4.45 pm apprenticeships. I hope we can do more to improve the Scott Mann (North Cornwall) (Con): I beg to move, life chances of young people in and around the country. In North Cornwall, our offer for young people has That this House has considered productivity in rural areas. drastically improved. Callywith College in Bodmin was It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, recently rated outstanding in six areas by Ofsted. I look Ms Ghani. I understand this is your first outing in the forward to working with the college and expanding its Chair and it feels like a lifetime ago since I led a debate future offer. in this place, so I hope this will not be our last outing On housing, it is a sad fact that the gap between together. average wages and average house prices is the highest it I begin by posing a question to the House and to the has ever been in England. In Cornwall, that trend is Minister. It is abundantly clear that more people are particularly acute. The problem is worsened by high considering living and working in rural and coastal levels of second-home ownership, and many homes are communities. Many are choosing a better life balance, beyond the reach of the local population. They are weighing up where they want to raise their children and generally bought by buy-to-let landlords, which drives taking advantage of some improved broadband connectivity up rents. However, we are seeing an increase and a trend —and covid has increased that trend. As the trend in second homes being occupied for longer periods of accelerates, this is my question to the House: is the the year. Some families are choosing to relocate already countryside ready for that change? I have considered the to make their second home more permanent, and I question a lot and I think it could be, but addressing the welcome those moves. However, the under-supply of productivity gap is vital in ensuring that rural communities housing has already damaged many lives and communities are safeguarded as we go about those changes. in Cornwall. An increase in the rural population will Cornwall is recognised as having the lowest productivity exacerbate that issue, so we cannot avoid the need to rate in the UK. According to Office for National Statistics build more homes in rural communities. figures released in February 2019, it was 32% below the On supply and construction, Cornwall is leading the national average. I know there are colleagues here today way on modular housing and newer forms of building who have similar challenges in their areas. We should be to get the speed of builds up. I hope that the changes very clear that the rural productivity gap is in no way outlined in the planning White Paper will continue that the fault of hard-working people in all our communities, roll-out and improve innovation and the solutions that but the result of a combination of geographical and we have to find to sort out the housing crisis. The historical factors. I am committed to addressing that planning Bill should also support economic development, long-standing injustice; I know my friends in the House business diversification, innovation and job creation in will be as well. the countryside. I firmly believe that if we do that, we First, it is worth examining some of the reasons the can address some of those rural challenges. productivity gap exists and what we can do to address Moving on to health outcomes, the physical distance it. In terms of local government and national Government, that some people have to drive to visit GPs and cottage local government officers and UK civil servants are and general hospitals often means that more people live bound to a funding formula for infrastructure projects with conditions and have to undergo lengthy surgery for that means they have to seek best value for money. That treatment. They often rely on family members for that travel. has led to money being funnelled into already affluent For example, someone living in Bude in my constituency areas, and, on paper, they see a greater return on that who has an appointment in nearby Barnstaple’s hospital investment. However,that compounds and further widens might have to take half a day’s holiday from work just the productivity gap we are here to discuss today. The to run their relative to an appointment. That obviously first step on the road to levelling up the United Kingdom has negative impacts on workplace productivity, but would be to change that model, recognise the potential also on quality of life. The covid pandemic has proved value of investment for a specific area and establish how that digital appointments with GPs can work, and some much improved value there would be over the baseline. consulting can work. Further digitalisation of the NHS For example, to get a 1% improvement in London’s could mean rural and coastal communities accessing economy, we would have to invest tens of billions of some of the best medical expertise in the country over Zoom pounds, but a 1% investment in the Cornish economy or Skype without the need to travel vast distances. would exponentially increase productivity in the area. I know lots of people will talk about physical So, £1 million invested in Cornwall would make a infrastructure in their own communities, and we have greater contribution to increasing productivity across seen a move from the Government to improve physical the nation than £1 million invested, for example, in the infrastructure distribution around the country, but it is Oxford-Cambridge corridor. clear that road and rail schemes often improve connectivity, On education, for far too long, young people in productivity, journey times and people’s life chances. I North Cornwall have accessed higher education outside have no doubt that colleagues will cover that topic, but the county. Once they have qualified, the majority never I have a particular scheme in North Cornwall that the return home. Many are old school friends of mine, who Treasury has already part funded, and it exemplifies how sought better paid work in other places around the important infrastructure can be. The Camelford bypass country. I know had a big push on getting has been talked about for more than 100 years. At its 50% of young people through university. My view is worst, the A39 through the town is gridlocked; at its best that that has compounded the problem, forcing many in the winter it can be tedious and extremely polluting. young people on to paths that are unsuited to them or Camelford has one of the highest NOx emission rates in to study degrees that are often of little benefit to the Cornwall. A bypass will improve health outcomes and economy local to where they grew up. connectivity, cut journey times on routes frequented by 197WH Productivity: Rural Areas14 OCTOBER 2020 Productivity: Rural Areas 198WH many workmen and traders, and in many cases will also 4.57 pm improve people’s life chances because they will be able to Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): It is a accessgoodqualityemployment.Werecentlysawimprovements pleasure to speak in this debate. I thank my hon. Friend to the A30, which have led to improved journey times the Member for North Cornwall (Scott Mann) for securing and created hundreds of jobs in the county. it, because we need to treat the whole country in a Many colleagues will wish to raise digital connectivity. similar way. Sometimes, we believe that the west country In many rural communities, improving broadband and goes as far as Bristol and no further, so we have to make mobile coverage is the single biggest step needed to sure that we get things done. address rural productivity issues. In Cornwall we have seen significant investment in speed, which has increased For instance, the A303 has been talked about for far exponentially, but we still have far to go. Cafés, farms, too long. In fact, I found a reference from Edward du white-collar workers and more can have more productivity, Cann, who said in 1958 that we needed to do more with but are limited at the moment by poor internet speeds. the A303. We can get going. We can deal with a tunnel It is crucial for tourism in Cornwall. Visit Cornwall under Stonehenge, but we can also deal with a road recently did a survey that showed that the top two through Somerset to make sure it gets into Devon and searches for holiday accommodation in Cornwall were then on to the A30 into Cornwall. broadband and hot tubs. Although I am absolutely My hon. Friend spoke about broadband. We need to convinced that hot tubs are important to people, I think get that done, because again, it is very much about we can agree that broadband is a necessity. Digital digital connectivity. In my constituency, there are further infrastructure should be the most important part of the education colleges in Axminster, Cullompton, Honiton Government’s levelling-up agenda. and Tiverton. There is a great drive towards improving We have also seen a move to remote working. A shift those colleges and giving people a good education, so to remote and flexible working was happening pre-covid, that we can get practical people into jobs that they and that is growing exponentially.I suspect many colleagues enjoy, can do and can make a good living at. in the Chamber today will be aware of that trend. Legacy In Tiverton, there is a school in a flood zone that we broadband and mobile investment can grow value added cannot repair because it would flood again. Therefore, and support new employment opportunities in rural as I have said many times, to actually level up the communities. We should encourage people to take community, we need a new school for Tiverton. If the advantage of the fantastic rural digital connectivity and Minister happens to have £40 million with her today, to set up businesses in rural areas, giving them better that would be extremely useful. quality of life and creating more and new opportunities To be serious, levelling up across the country is for employment. essential, because all hon. Members have great communities, There have been a lot of efficiency savings in agriculture great people and great businesses, but we also have areas and farming in recent years, including robotics in milking that need levelling up.Sometimes, a great rural constituency parlours. Tractors are bigger and more efficient than with lovely farms and lovely countryside does not really they used to be. We have only scratched the surface of show those pockets that need levelling up. what we can do in terms of agricultural tech and robotics in our communities. 4.59 pm I appreciate that many hon. Members want to speak, but it is worth making the point that the rural productivity Paul Girvan (South Antrim) (DUP): It is a pleasure gap is not a north-south divide, as it is sometimes to take part in this debate under your chairmanship, reported. In my view, there are two economies in the Ms Ghani. I congratulate the hon. Member for North UK: London and the south-east and the rest of us. I Cornwall (Scott Mann) on securing this important debate. believe that the Government are committed to levelling Some 37% of the Northern Ireland population live in up and will not lose sight of that focus, despite the rural areas, so they contribute to a large section of our challenges that we are undergoing with the covid-19 overall economy.Unfortunately,they are somewhat missed pandemic. People who live in rural communities are up out when it comes to the delivery of public services and for the challenge. The Cornish are entrepreneurial, hard- public transport, which is also a problem when people working and never miss an opportunity to make a few go to develop a business in a rural setting. People might quid, so with the right support from the Treasury, I have need transport for it, but there is no connectivity. no doubt that they can close the productivity gap. One of our biggest bugbears in Northern Ireland is I ask the Minister to respond on the following points. rural broadband and the difficulties with it for businesses Will she continue to invest in technical colleges and going forward. We have bucked the trend to some degree level apprenticeships? Will she ensure that everyone degree with businesses such as Randox in my constituency. in the UK has access to good-quality broadband and It is a large employer based in a rural area, but it has mobile? Will she support planning policies that are also come across the difficulties of planning policy and designed to promote economic growth for our rural and what I call zoning. Zoning problems do not allow coastal communities? Will she continue to push for a businesses to expand. They are good and developing bigger role for digital and virtual in our health service? businesses, but because someone has a wee red box Will the Minister try to ensure that R&D funding is drawn around an area, nothing more can be done. That funnelled into innovation in the farming sector? Pilot can reduce the opportunities for a business to expand. schemes are often floated around the country. Will she Now a Northern Ireland Executive is in place, we consider the least productive areas for some of those hope for access to the apprenticeship fund. Businesses pilot schemes and procurement things that happen in in Northern Ireland contribute to it, but need to be able Government? I will leave it there as several hon. Members to access it to bring forward rural apprenticeships. In wish to speak. I am looking forward to hearing what my constituency, the Greenmount agricultural college is they have to say as well. a leading college for agriculture not only in Northern 199WH Productivity: Rural Areas14 OCTOBER 2020 Productivity: Rural Areas 200WH

[Paul Girvan] Given the time available, I simply want to make this case to the Minister: if the Government want Britain to Ireland but throughout the UK, and we want to support be levelled up with the rest of Europe and the rest of the it to bring diversification for farms and those involved developed world, that is where we need to start. We in our agrifood industry, which is a major player in need to aim for 95% fibre to the home or the premises rural productivity. right across the country, starting in rural areas, because that is where it will do the most good. 5.1 pm I said that one in four of my constituents works for David Warburton (Somerton and Frome) (Con): It is themselves, and that they are entrepreneurs and creative. a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Ghani. Even more could be if they were given the ability to be I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for better connected. I look at our community at the moment, North Cornwall (Scott Mann) for raising this critical struggling from covid and doing their best to work from issue. For me, there is an answer to the productivity gap, home, in circumstances that were utterly unthinkable and it is technology and infrastructure, as we have just six months ago. I am sure we will not go back to heard. Even before lockdown, a quarter of the rural how things were before. When we go back to work more population worked from home. With small and medium- generally, post-covid, we need to be able to compete, sized enterprises being the engine of the rural economy, and we will do that only if we decide that we will adopt digital connectivity is vital, but Somerset is sprinkled with that 21st-century solution, and build fibre to the home. areas that have unreliable and intermittent connectivity. New investment in broadband in those dead zones is 5.5 pm of course great news, and the shared rural network agreement is another step forward, but there is still a Simon Baynes (Clwyd South) (Con): I am very proud lingering belief that the rural economy is purely focused that in Clwyd South, my constituency on the Welsh borders, on agriculture. Of course, we have a thriving industry we have achieved the first universal service obligation in that is based on agriculture—in my constituency, the Wales, but it has been hard work and, as other hon. fabulous cheese makers of Wyke Farms, Montgomery Members have mentioned, there is much more to be Cheese, Godminster and Barber’s, and innumerable cider done. There are real problems with BT Openreach. We manufacturers—and they are all vital to the local economy, must make sure that the £5 billion investment that has but it is equally important to stoke the fire of businesses been promised by the UK Government gets into the such as the logistics and supply chain company Vallis system, and that we can untangle a lot of the problems. Commodities in Frome, the operations of which depend Yes, we have made progress, but there is more work to on Somerset’s physical and digital infrastructure. be done. Investment in road—I dare not mention the A303 again The second area where we can improve rural productivity —in rail and in digital infrastructure will pay dividends is by devolving as many powers as possible locally. I was for decades to come. Just stick in the money and sit a county councillor, a town councillor and mayor of my back and watch as the resourceful and dynamic people rural town before I became an MP, so I have had of the west country beaver away in effect to give it all practical experience of trying to improve rural areas. In back with interest. If the shared prosperity fund is to Clwyd South, Wrexham County Borough Council and achieve its purpose of smoothing inequalities between Denbighshire County Council made many of the key different communities, let us do that within a framework decisions affecting rural life, from roads and housing to that balances protecting the bucolic glory of our small schools and local facilities. Sometimes we forget that towns and villages while equipping them with the tools many of the levers to achieve what we want to achieve that they need to flourish. lie at the local level. Finally, I emphasise that in rural areas the proportion Ms Nusrat Ghani (in the Chair): A mouth-watering of small and medium-sized businesses is much higher contribution. than in urban areas. Therefore, policies that bolster 5.3 pm those businesses are extremely important, particularly the availability of office and workshop space. That is a Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): It is a major problem in many rural areas and we need to real pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Ghani. create the planning conditions that allow for that, combined, Anyone who could make a living among the lakes as other hon. Members have mentioned, with improved and dales of south Cumbria, just would—the problem, provision of skills, training and apprenticeships. of course, is the ability to make that living. One in four of my constituents in work works for themselves, and 5.7 pm they are entrepreneurs. We want to encourage that strongly, and the fact that we have 95% officially superfast Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate you, broadband in my constituency is hugely welcome. Ms Ghani, on getting to the position that you are in. It That 95%, however, does not ring many bells for the is lovely to see you there and I wish you well. I thank the chief executive officer of a trading and development hon. Member for North Cornwall (Scott Mann) for company in our big town of Kendal, which has a 0.05 setting the scene. I will talk about Brexit and the megabits per second upload speed. The reality, and the opportunities, because that is where I feel that we have figure that matters, is not the 95% superfast broadband, those chances. but the 9.7% of my constituents who have fibre to their The dairy industry and connected agrifood industry home. That compares with the 27% nationally, and even is a massive rural key. One dairy corporate in my that figure is a disgrace. That is what matters the most, constituency in Northern Ireland has 2,500 farming that 90% of my constituents rely on copper wires, a families depending on it. We look forward to moving 20th-century solution to a 21st-century problem. forward to continue trade and to enhance that. When it 201WH Productivity: Rural Areas14 OCTOBER 2020 Productivity: Rural Areas 202WH comes to productivity, Brexit will give us that opportunity. national bus strategy, and I welcome the new X57 bus, Mash Direct, Rich Sauces and Lakeland Dairies in my which will provide a new service between Manchester constituency have shown that global trade is possible, and Sheffield. That will be a big boost for people who, exporting as far away as China. That is something that like me, live in Glossop, and for those in Ashopton and the former Minister for International Development enabled Bamford. us to develop. I want to talk about poor broadband and mobile To move forward, we need the Government centrally phone coverage, which holds back lots of areas. That is and the Minister to work with the Northern Ireland why roll-out of gigabit-capable broadband is so important. Assembly. They need to work alongside each other, to It is encouraging that we are finally starting to see negotiate the choppy tides of leaving the EU, to hit the full-fibre getting out to some of the hardest-to-reach wide-open seas of free trade and commerce, and to places in High Peak, but we have to get it to the homes, reach the global potential that exists. In my farming not just to the cabinet, which makes a big difference to constituency, it reaches down from the big companies, speed. Openreach has recently announced that it will be which between the three of them employ some 2,500 people, extending full-fibre to 11 Derbyshire market towns and plus the farmers who live off them. Glastry Farm villages,including Buxton, Glossop and Chapel-en-le-Frith, produces excellent ice cream. I said last night that which I wholeheartedly welcome. Portavogie prawns are the best prawns in the country; Finally, I want to acknowledge that improving rural well, Glastry Farm ice cream is the best ice cream that productivity is a big challenge. There is no single silver there is. It is a local farm that has diversified and done bullet or single Act of Parliament, but if we work what it can to increase rural productivity. together, we can deliver for our constituents. I quickly underline the importance of post offices and banks, because of the wellbeing they provide. The 5.11 pm hon. Member for Angus (Dave Doogan) is a member of a party—the Scots Nats—whose Members have spoken Cherilyn Mackrory (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): I out in the House about bank closures many times. I congratulate my Cornish colleague, my hon. Friend the have been in every debate; I want to make sure that is on Member for North Cornwall (Scott Mann), on securing the record. the debate. I endorse everything that he said, and I will I want to ensure that we address the issue of broadband, not repeat too much. However, I particularly want to to reach out to isolated rural areas and to help small endorse the Camelford bypass, which I know he has been and medium-sized businesses, because if we can do working tirelessly on since he has been in this place. that, we can raise productivity and we can all do better To live in Cornwall is to have to diversify—there is no across the great United Kingdom of Great Britain and doubt about it. When someone moves to Cornwall, Northern Ireland. there is no walking into a well-paid job in a bank or anything like that. One has to think about how one will 5.9 pm learn a living. Most people who live and work in Cornwall have one job and one or two businesses, or even more. Robert Largan (High Peak) (Con): I congratulate my That is how one earns a living. hon. Friend the Member for North Cornwall (Scott Mann) Last night in the Chamber, we spoke extensively in on securing the debate and the excellent case he made the debate on the Fisheries Bill. One point that I wanted for the importance of infrastructure in reducing the to make—we were cut short on time—was about how rural productivity gap. we get more fisherman into their boats. As part of a A good example of how to do that is the Hope Valley rural injection of money, I would like to see, if possible, railway line that serves New Mills, Chinley, Edale, Hope an apprenticeship scheme for fisherman, so that young and Bamford in my constituency. It is a popular service guys and girls coming out of college who are not and arguably one of the most beautiful railway journeys particularly academic, but who have good watercraft in the world, but in the period running up to December 2019 and have lived by the sea all their lives, are attracted to it scored only 52% on the public performance measure the industry. We could help them get their own boats, so for train punctuality, making it one of the worst services that we start to see a resurgence of the inshore fleet, in the country. One does not need to be a genius to rather than such young people having to leave and go realise the negative impact that has on our economic elsewhere. productivity. We have a fantastic college in Truro—the Truro and I am pleased that we are making progress, with the Penwith College—which is doing a fantastic job at modern class 195 trains recently starting service and trying to match courses to skills. It has taken on the phasing out the ancient Pacers. I am campaigning for T-levels, and I know that is the college’s move going an upgrade to the capacity on the line so that we can get forward. It is doing a brilliant job at it. We also have the more frequent services, which would make a huge difference and the University of Falmouth, to a huge number of residents in my constituency. which are doing a fantastic job on the academic side of While on the subject of transport, it would be remiss things. of me not to mention the communities that are cut off I see that Cornwall is moving towards the green entirely from the railway network and have extremely recovery. We have lithium and green hydrogen. We have limited bus services. A good example is Gamesley, which plans for floating offshore wind. This morning I was by some measures is in the top 1% of the most deprived talking to Starbucks, which is now making its reusable places in the country, yet many local residents are cups in Cornwall. It is happening, and all it needs is just forced to pay for a taxi to get home, because the last bus a bit of imagination and initiative from the Government finishes at 5 pm. We need a new railway station for to see how we can spend the shared prosperity fund and Gamesley. I look forward eagerly to the Government’s tailor it to what our areas actually need. 203WH Productivity: Rural Areas14 OCTOBER 2020 Productivity: Rural Areas 204WH

5.13 pm reach full potential either as a business or as an individual. Miriam Cates (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Con): I It certainly holds back the many tourism businesses in congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for North my constituency. Cornwall (Scott Mann) on securing the debate. In Sennybridge, in my patch, only 50% of households Rural productivity is an issue of great importance to have superfast availability, which is well below the my constituents in Penistone and Stocksbridge. I recently 95% average across the United Kingdom. Sadly, we in visited a dairy farm in the constituency where farmers Wales have a Welsh Labour Administration, propped are working hard to improve productivity by introducing up by the Liberal Democrats, who do not value rural new technologies that will increase milk yields. Such areas. Investment in superfast broadband has been technologies require the collection and processing of real- concentrated in the urban south Wales valleys, and sadly time data from cattle, and this in turn requires reliable, it does not reach up into my constituency in mid-Wales. high-speed and affordable broadband. All businesses I was therefore overjoyed in March when the Chancellor are becoming more reliant on broadband, and there is reaffirmed the Government’s plan to invest £5 billion to now a direct relationship between internet speed and how help to build gigabit-capable networks throughout the much productive work can be done. In the rural broadband UK by the end of 2025. I encourage the Government to survey that I am currently conducting in my constituency, ensure that that capacity is built without delay. I support however, nearly 60% of respondents tell me that their the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for broadband is slow or very slow, so it is hardly surprising Clwyd South (Simon Baynes) about BT and Openreach, that rural productivity is falling behind. but I urge the Government also to do what they can to support small and medium-sized enterprises in that Businesses and people working from home do not space, so that there is real competition in the broadband require broadband just for sending emails or online roll-out sector. shopping. The nature of work has changed, and high-tech solutions and high-quality virtual meetings require a Our levelling-up agenda depends on ensuring that high-quality connection. There are no easy answers to households across the UK, even in the most rural areas, these problems, and we need community power as well have access to superfast broadband, so that we can as support from central Government in order to seek close the digital divide and take full advantage of rural innovative local solutions. productivity capacity. Of course, broadband speeds are not the only factor 5.17 pm limiting rural connectivity. Poor bus and train services restrict opportunities to travel to well-paid work in the John Howell (Henley) (Con): The issue has been local area, in stark contrast with vastly better services in looked at in considerable detail by the Council of Europe, urban areas. Again, I believe there is an opportunity for across the wider Europe that it is responsible for. One of community power to improve transport connectivity. the things that has come out of that is that, while South Pennine Community Transport, a fantastic local we may want to see rural areas as one block, they are community interest company near my constituency, is actually quite diverse. Many rural areas are some of the trialling a new regular bus service between rural villages most prosperous in this country. In many there is a and Stocksbridge town. The service will connect people shift to a new rural economy with reduced dependency to jobs and leisure services and could be financially on land-based activities and a more diversified economy. self-sustaining in under two years. Many millions of What we need to do in those areas is support people live in rural communities in this country, and it entrepreneurship and innovation. In my constituency, is not just for economic reasons that we need to level up. at Culham, which is the UK’s centre for fusion activities, Rural life, culture, tradition and values are a valuable we are bringing in many exciting new international part of this country’s history and our future, and we companies and setting up a centre for apprenticeships need to make sure that young people are able to stay in that can operate across the whole area and carry on those communities and have productive jobs. quite significant scientific activities. That all depends on access to technology and connectivity. A number of hon. Ms Nusrat Ghani (in the Chair): I thank Mr Warburton Members have already mentioned the issue of broadband, for swapping seats with Ms Jones so that she can and I completely agree about that. contribute. There is a demographic issue that we all, I think, are concerned with—that rural areas should be the home 5.15 pm not just of retired people but of young people who are Fay Jones (Brecon and Radnorshire) (Con): Thank, innovative and out there, and who are getting on with you, Ms Ghani. It is kind of you to call me in the making the areas where they live prosperous and quite debate, and I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member strong. If I had time I would quote from the OECD, for North Cornwall (Scott Mann) on securing it. which has also looked at the area in question. That would reinforce what I have said about the need to value My constituency is heavily rural. Wehave seven livestock innovation and entrepreneurship in taking forward the markets and only four supermarkets. We have no district prosperity we want in rural areas. general hospital, no motorway and limited train and bus services, but the digital divide, as has come up in the debate, is the most significant factor holding back the 5.19 pm vast capacity for rural productivity that exists across the Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): It is a pleasure UK. Specifically, the lack of high-speed broadband to be called by you, Ms Ghani. I thank my hon. Friend the that plagues a large proportion of my constituency Member for North Cornwall (Scott Mann) for introducing limits businesses’ and households’ capability to get this great debate on our countryside. I have two minutes, connected. In the age of e-commerce and online learning, so it has to be a list, for which I apologise to the Minister. I not being able to get online can mean not being able to suspect that the Government have heard a lot of it before. 205WH Productivity: Rural Areas14 OCTOBER 2020 Productivity: Rural Areas 206WH

I have two seaside resorts in my constituency: Swanage competitive advantages. These can then act as economic and Weymouth—and the Isle of Portland; I must never nodes for regional opportunity in a far more targeted forget that. Weare heavily resort-based, and we need some way, supporting start-ups and peer support between love and investment. Wehave large pockets of deprivation businesses, and generating and cultivating the multiplier in my seat of South Dorset. Although we are extremely effect, which can spread growth, opportunity and prosperity grateful for the huge sums of money we have received out to landward areas. for the Weymouth Pavilion, Swanage railway and the Tank Museum, adding up to about £1.25 million from In Scotland, great strides have been made to enable various sources, I am afraid that we need more. decentralised power much closer to the people, under I initiated a business panel, because I think business devolution in Edinburgh. This has been replicated in people are better at promoting what we need than Wales, Northern Ireland, London and the other mayoral politicians, because a lot of my constituents do not assemblies in England. In an independent Scotland, it agree with what I say, understandably. This panel is now would be unforgivable to repeat the difficult-to-unwind looking at what we will need for the next 30 to 50 years, centralisation mistakes of the UK. That sounds like a in which I would include—I will push the Government political point, but I would contend that it is a political hard on this—a road north. We cannot get out of Dorset science point. By any stretch of the imagination and by and Hampshire; we have to go to the A34. This is utter any international comparator, the UK is chronically madness. We need a relief road in Weymouth, so that over-centralised in London. That comes at a significant the port can expand, which it is already doing, creating cost to the rest of these islands. huge numbers of jobs. There is great concern regarding physical and digital As colleagues have said, we need better connectivity connectivity. Both are extremely important. As the hon. with broadband and mobile, which is currently appalling. Member for North Cornwall highlighted, without superfast Weymouth College is the only place where young people broadband, the nicest hotel in the village would find it in my seat can aspire to move on to better careers, difficult to get custom and impossible to get repeat university and all the things that are so important for custom, and customer reviews would reflect that. I am the young. We need more money to bring this college, afraid that superfast broadband is no longer a luxury which is doing a fantastic job, up to the standard that is add-on; it is absolutely essential for the hospitality required to deliver that opportunity to the young. industry.Without that, individual businesses are working Finally, a forgotten element is the outdoor education with one hand tied behind their back, because there is centres. I know that is not the Minister’s responsibility. nothing they can do about it. That requires significant Schools are not sending children there. They should be public investment. Following that investment, there is a allowed to because they are safe and bubbled, and children need to build a more sustainable model where economic should be able to enjoy a day out in the countryside. activity and output creates the demand for a more market-led support for services and infrastructure. Ms Nusrat Ghani (in the Chair): We now come to the Scottish National party spokesperson. Mr Doogan, you The Scottish Government, where we have the powers, have a joyous five minutes. You do not have to use it all. have in the “Programme for Government” put the rural economy at the heart of the agenda. We recognise the importance of diversity in the rural economy and we 5.21 pm are committed to a range of measures to support that Dave Doogan (Angus) (SNP): I guarantee I will. It is growth. The rural economy is a major source of growth a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Ghani. in Scotland, with its economic contribution worth about I am grateful to the hon. Member for North Cornwall £35 billion in gross value added. Figures from 2015 show (Scott Mann) for bringing this debate. it was 27% of Scotland’s economy. There are 67,000 Rural communities’needs must have greater prominence jobs in Scotland in farming alone. The Scottish agriculture in Government policy. We would do well to ensure that sector, which is no different to that in great swathes of this debate provides traction for that ambition. Across England—not least Cornwall—is worth about £1.3 billion the UK—especially in England and Northern Ireland, to our economy. Farming is at the heart of Scotland’s where the topography is literally more accommodating— economy and has the potential to contribute to our rural populations and their needs as taxpayers and citizens, national recovery from covid, as it does elsewhere. together with their economic contribution are too easily and routinely overlooked. That is an opportunity lost. It needs to be accepted that different challenges are faced by rural businesses. The Scottish Government are The City of London and North sea oil and gas were addressing those, including through a new place-based the powerhouses of the UK economy for nearly 30 years approach to integrate business support for rural micro- or so. From Caithness to Cornwall, if we removed the enterprises. As other hon. Members have said, it is net economic output from rural communities across really important to look at the aggregate effect. There these isles, we would see one heck of a dent in the UK’s are not massive companies in rural settings—that is not economy. Rural communities and economies need a far what characterises rural entrepreneurship. There are greater slice of the investment cake if they are to many different economic enterprises—often, as has been increase productivity. Resources are the end result; the pointed out, in the same household—all contributing to means to that is a shift in perspective and central a significant economic output. Government policy.Centralised institutions and Whitehall must react to this. I am grateful to have had an opportunity to contribute We need our great regional cities—whether Aberdeen, to the debate. I wish the hon. Member for North Belfast, Cardiff or Durham—to be reborn as regional Cornwall every success in taking this issue forward with hubs. This base must exploit their existing and manifest his colleagues in Government. 207WH Productivity: Rural Areas14 OCTOBER 2020 Productivity: Rural Areas 208WH

5.26 pm We need to make sure that we are investing in our people, which is about access to skills and making sure Wes Streeting (Ilford North) (Lab): It is a pleasure that people do not need to leave the places where they to be here for your debut in the Chair, Ms Ghani. I grew up in order to have a successful career or to build a congratulate the hon. Member for North Cornwall successful business. It is important that we invest in (Scott Mann) on securing this very good debate. I also infrastructure, whether that is buses, rail or other forms congratulate all those Members who were elected for of public transport. There are also ongoing issues of the first time at the most recent general election—not digital connectivity—this country is a digital laggard. for the election victory, I hasten to add; we would rather We only have to look at the report of the Environment, that had not happened—on having already learned the Food and Rural Affairs Committee to see that we are so fine parliamentary art form of squeezing a five-minute far behind other European countries on digital connectivity. speech into two minutes. As a result, we heard a wide range of important points. Notwithstanding all the other challenges that our country faces at the moment, I really hope that, as we When I read the room, I was not sure about whether I think about how to break the back of this covid crisis, should have more trepidation about addressing this we think about how we build a better, stronger, more gathering as a Labour MP or as a London MP. I want resilient economy beyond the crisis, making sure that to explain why both of those things are complementary we invest in rural communities and their people, businesses to what we have just heard. First, the regional imbalance and infrastructure. I hope we can build a cross-party in the UK economy is not working for London and the consensus in this area to generate good ideas for the south-east, either. This city—one where I am a suburban next Labour Government to take forward. MP—is overheating and overcrowded. It is in the interests of London and the south-east that we are rebalancing Ms Nusrat Ghani (in the Chair): If the Minister can the economy across England and the rest of the UK. conclude by 5.43 pm, that will give enough time for the The concentration of power, wealth and opportunity in hon. Member for North Cornwall (Scott Mann) to London and the south-east does not work for London, wind up the debate. for the rest of England or for the rest of the UK. I hope we can achieve genuine consensus about how we redistribute power, wealth and opportunity from London and the 5.31 pm south-east to the rest of the UK to create a genuinely balanced economy that benefits everyone and strengthens The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Kemi our country as a whole. Badenoch): It is a delight to be with you on your debut chairing of a Westminster Hall debate, Ms Ghani. I join The Opposition not only not disagree with so much others in congratulating my hon. Friend the Member of what we heard in the debate but strongly support it. for North Cornwall (Scott Mann) on securing this We understand the diversity of the rural economy in important debate. As the Member of Parliament for this country. Jobs and businesses in farming, forestry Saffron Walden, a beautiful rural constituency in north and fishing are important for the people who work in Essex, I share many of the concerns raised today. In them, the communities who benefit from them and, of fact, if I was not a Treasury Minister, I would no doubt course, the consumers who enjoy them too. However, be here talking about the same things. I thank hon. they are not the grand total of rural businesses; in fact, Members for their many insightful and constructive 85% of rural businesses are unrelated to farming, forestry contributions. and fishing. It is really important that public policy makers, whether in Government or around the Westminster As recently as last week, the Prime Minister expressed village, understand that point and think about the diversity his view that the only way to ensure true resilience and of the rural economy and how we support those businesses long-term prosperity is to raise the overall productivity to succeed. of the country. In saying that, he was not talking only about our cities, as the hon. Member for Ilford North It is also a really important point that, in the context (Wes Streeting) referenced. When this Government talk of the productivity challenge we have in the economy as about boosting productivity, levelling up and building a whole, rural economies in the UK are less productive. back better,we are talking about the entire country—north The hon. Member for North Cornwall made the point and south, east and west, urban and rural. well that that reflects not on the workforce but on the Rural areas do not just make up most of this country conditions in which those businesses operate. It is also by land area. They are integral to the commerce and true that employment is generally higher in rural areas culture of every nation and region of the UK. As my but pay is lower. We heard some illustrations of why hon. Friend the Member for Henley (John Howell) that was, with people holding down a number of jobs—in noted, our rural communities are diverse. In England fact, running a number of businesses—to make ends alone, more than 9 million people live in rural towns, meet. That point was made powerfully during the debate. villages and hamlets, each a unique settlement with its What are the conditions in the wider environment own distinctive history and identity. These communities that are causing some of these challenges? Of course, produce much of the food we eat and preserve the green some challenges arise out of business size and density, spaces that we love to visit and that our wildlife relies on. and there are not the same conglomeration effects as in The Government are proud of the contribution that urban areas. rural businesses make to our national economy, and we We have heard contributions on the challenges of are determined to help rural areas harness their full accessing finance and the closure of bank branches. We economic potential. Rural areas typically have higher ought to think, in the context of the connectivity that rates of employment and lower rates of unemployment we have had to create during the course of covid, about and economic inactivity. The historic backbone of how to better connect rural businesses with each other. economies in rural areas has been British farms and 209WH Productivity: Rural Areas14 OCTOBER 2020 Productivity: Rural Areas 210WH their world-class produce, which is why the Government Many hon. Members mentioned digital infrastructure, are committed to protecting farm budgets for the duration including my hon. Friends the Members for Tiverton of this Parliament. In the years ahead, we will take and Honiton (Neil Parish) and for Truro and Falmouth, advantage of leaving the common agricultural policy to and the hon. Member for South Antrim. It is the transition away from area-based direct payments, which information superhighway that we need to support our do little for the environment or productivity, and towards rural economy. As my hon. Friend for Somerton and a new system based on giving public money for public Frome said, it is not just about farming and infrastructure. goods, which will help our farmers to become more We have announced landmark investments in digital productive, more efficient and more environmentally connectivity, including £5 billion to support the roll-out sustainable. of gigabit-capable broadband in the hardest-to-reach areas, which I know will please my hon. Friend the Fishing, too, is crucial. It is the mainstay of many Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Fay Jones), and UK coastal communities, providing jobs and valued £500 million to extend 4G coverage to 95% of the UK’s produce here at home and sending lucrative exports landmass. As the hon. Member for Westmorland and abroad. The Government have committed to maintaining Lonsdale (Tim Farron) mentioned, that will keep people funding for fisheries across the UK nations throughout and businesses connected. this Parliament. My hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth (Cherilyn Mackrory) asked me about As we fulfil our manifesto commitment to boost apprenticeships for fishing. I can tell her that the Institute productivity and level up the whole country, we will not for Apprenticeships and Technical Education is working forget that rural communities have their own needs and with employers to develop a range of courses for that. challenges, some the same as, and some different from, those faced by people in large towns and cities. For I have already made the point about rural communities instance, second-home owners can leave a shortage of generating crucial economic capital. They are also home affordable housing, particularly for local workers. For to much of our natural capital, which has not been that reason, nearly 165,000 affordable homes have been mentioned so much in this debate. We want more private provided in rural local authorities since 2010, but the investment in that natural capital, which will in turn Government recognise the need for more. As my hon. create jobs and support our world-leading target of Friend the Member for Henley said, that is the only way reaching net zero by 2050. that we will keep young people in our communities, Stronger transport links were raised by many Members. which is why at least 10% of the new affordable homes They play a particularly critical role in rural economies. programme will be delivered in rural locations, and why We are spending more than £27 billion on strategic and those homes will be exempt from the new right to shared local roads through the road investment strategy 2 from ownership. Restrictions on shared-ownership homes are 2020 to 2025—the largest ever investment in England’s in place in rural protection areas to keep affordable strategic roads. That includes the £2 billion committed home ownership options available. at Budget to building the A303 tunnel, which I know The national planning policy framework allows entry- several Members are interested in. We also confirmed at level exception sites in rural areas to be used in perpetuity Budget the development funding for the A39 Camelford for affordable housing where sites would not normally be bypass, as part of the major roads programme. used for housing. In the Government’s recent consultation Transport links must be levelled up across the country. on changes to the current planning system, we set out That is why,earlier this year,the Prime Minister announced our intention to protect the important role that rural a £5 billion investment to transform bus and cycle links exception sites play in delivering affordable homes—I in every region of England, supported by the ambitious have seen for myself the difference that that is making. cycling and walking plan that was published in July Local planning authorities are encouraged to support and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd South opportunities to bring forward such sites, but we recognise (Simon Baynes) mentioned, by a national bus strategy, that that delivery mechanism is underused and we intent which will be delivered in the coming months. In the to update the planning guidance in due course. Budget, the Chancellor also announced a £2.5 billion Our rural economy was once dominated by the trade potholes fund over this Parliament, to address the local in natural commodities, but in 2020, it is much more road maintenance backlog. than just farms, fish and fir trees. It is about the businesses and entrepreneurship that my hon. Friend the Member We heard from many hon. Members, including the for South Dorset (Richard Drax) quite rightly mentioned hon. Members for South Antrim (Paul Girvan) and for in his speech. Today, our rural communities are often as Angus (Dave Doogan), and my hon. Friends the Members vibrant and economically diverse as our cities. My hon. for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Miriam Cates) and for Friend the Member for North Cornwall asked if the Somerton and Frome (David Warburton), about further countryside was ready for a new post-covid economy. I education and degree-level apprenticeships. Higher and believe so, and the Government will do all they can to degree-level apprenticeships form an important part of support that. The Government are committed to helping our skills and education system, providing people of all those communities to thrive over the long term, as we backgrounds with a choice of high-value vocational level up every region and nation of the UK, boosting training, alongside traditional academic routes. As part productivity and spreading opportunity. of our plan for jobs, the Government have introduced new payments to employers in England from 1 August 2020 5.39 pm until 31 January 2021: £2,000 for each new apprentice hired who is aged under 25, and £1,500 for each new Scott Mann: It has been an absolute pleasure to lead apprentice hired who is aged 25 or above. Those payments the debate. We have had a tour de force from around the apply to newly hired apprentices, including those at country—Scotland, Cumbria, Yorkshire, Wales, Northern degree level. Ireland, Dorset, Somerset and, of course, Cornwall—and 211WH Productivity: Rural Areas14 OCTOBER 2020 Productivity: Rural Areas 212WH

[Scott Mann] which was a pleasure to lead, and I look forward to working with the Government to deliver on what we it was a pleasure to hear from the Minister. I know that have discussed. she understands the issue well, and I hope that, in the Question put and agreed to. light of what she has heard today, she will consider the Resolved, countryside to be a living, breathing workplace, as we all do. That this House has considered productivity in rural areas. I know that we all in this Chamber stand ready to support making the countryside more productive. I 5.40 pm thank hon. Members for participating in the debate, Sitting adjourned. 21WS Written Statements 14 OCTOBER 2020 Written Statements 22WS

available to middle-income countries and $6 billion to Written Statements low and lower middle-income countries, to help them secure access to covid-19 vaccines. Wednesday 14 October 2020 [HCWS511]

CABINET OFFICE BUSINESS, ENERGY AND INDUSTRIAL STRATEGY Withdrawal Agreement Joint Committee Meeting

International Vaccines Procurement Initiative The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Minister (COVAX): UK Participation for the Cabinet Office (Michael Gove): The next meeting of the Withdrawal Agreement Joint Committee will take place in London on 19 October 2020, with delegations The Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial attending in person and by video conference. Strategy (Alok Sharma): I am confirming that the United The meeting will be co-chaired by me and vice-president Kingdom has joined the global COVAX initiative to of the European Commission, Mr Maroš Šefcˇovicˇ. expedite the discovery, manufacture, and fair distribution The agenda will include four items: of an effective coronavirus vaccine to 1 billion people globally. Introduction and opening remarks from co-chairs The UK is a strong supporter and champion of Stocktake of recent specialised Committee meetings COVAX and its mission to deliver fair and equitable Future specialised Committee meetings access to covid-19 vaccines around the world. We are pleased that over 170 countries and territories have Update on withdrawal agreement implementation announced their intention to join COVAX. Through Citizens’ rights this initiative, countries are pooling resources to support Joint implementation report “at risk”investment in manufacturing and secure advance Progress on Joint Committee decision on triangulation purchase agreements with manufacturers for the supply Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland of their vaccines. COVAX will procure vaccines for Progress on Joint Committee decisions foreseen by both high-income and lower-income countries and will the protocol distribute vaccines equitably. Progress on Joint Committee decision on correction The COVAX facility is being run by the vaccines of errors and omissions alliance (Gavi), with the support of the World Health Dispute settlement—discussion on progress on Joint Organisation (WHO) and the Coalition for Epidemic Committee decision on the establishment of a list of Preparedness Innovations (CEPI). It has two parts: arbitrators a self-financing facility to allow upper-middle and high-income countries to pool investments in candidates in exchange for AOB early access to vaccines; and Concluding remarks the advance market commitment (AMC) fund, to support The UK delegation will include me and the Paymaster 92 low and lower-middle income countries to buy vaccines. General, my right hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth We have contributed £71 million to the self-financing North (Penny Mordaunt). facility. This will give us an option to buy vaccines Representatives from the Northern Ireland Executive available through COVAX for up to 20% of the UK have been invited to form part of the UK delegation. population (13.5 million people). Any vaccines secured [HCWS514] through COVAX will be complementary to those the UK has already secured through its agreements with vaccine developers. PRIME MINISTER The Prime Minister announced at the United Nations General Assembly (UNGA) that the UK will allocate Appointment Update £500 million of ODA funding for the procurement and delivery of covid-19 vaccines in low and lower middle- The Prime Minister (Boris Johnson): The fire in Grenfell income countries. This is in addition to the £48 million Tower on 14 June 2017 was an unimaginable tragedy we allocated to the AMC at the global vaccine summit that should never have happened. in June 2020. The Government set up the Grenfell Tower Inquiry This new funding includes a commitment to match to get to the truth about what happened and to deliver £1 for every $4 committed by others, up to £250 million, justice for victims, survivors, bereaved families and the encouraging other countries to fund the global effort to wider community. fairly distribute vaccines across the globe and leverage Ensuring that such a terrible tragedy can never happen an additional $1 billion for the AMC. Canada, Germany, again remains a priority for this Government. Sweden and Japan have all made commitments of over In February this year, I announced my intention to $422 million. This means we have, so far, matched appoint an additional panel member to the Grenfell almost £106 million of this funding. Tower Inquiry. Section 7(1 )(b) of the Inquiries Act 2005 In addition, the UK has worked with the World Bank allows me to appoint panel members to the inquiry to develop an ambitious $12 billion proposal for vaccine panel at any time during the inquiry. In appointing a financing, which was also announced at UNGA. The panel member, section 8(1 )(a) and (b) of the Inquiries World Bank will make up to $6 billion of its financing Act 2005 require me to ensure that the inquiry panel 23WS Written Statements 14 OCTOBER 2020 Written Statements 24WS

(considered as a whole) has the necessary expertise to WORK AND PENSIONS undertake the inquiry, and to consider the need for balance, considered against the background of the terms Warm Home Discount Scheme: Pensioner Support of reference, in the composition of the panel. Phase 2 of the inquiry is the largest phase in terms of the number and range of issues to be considered, and The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Dr Thérèse given the diversity of issues, and the expertise already Coffey): The warm home discount scheme (WHDS) available to the inquiry, I am pleased to appoint Ali provides up to £350m per year to tackle fuel poverty Akbor OBE as the inquiry’s third panel member. and the pressure placed by energy prices on low income Ali is currently the CEO of Unity Homes and Enterprise, households. a leading housing association supporting sustainable Around 1.2 million pensioner households who receive and diverse neighbourhoods in west Yorkshire. Prior to the guarantee element of pension credit are automatically his role at Unity,Ali was finance director for the Community eligible for the WHDS and will receive a £140 discount and Social Services Directorate at the City of Salford. off their energy bill. Thanks to DWP IT we have data In December 2019, he was awarded an OBE for services matched nearly one million eligible claimants who will to the community in Leeds. His knowledge of, and receive this discount automatically. professional expertise in social housing, local government A further 220,000 pensioners will receive a letter and community engagement are highly relevant skills and encouraging them to check their eligibility and apply. experience which will add great value to the inquiry Pensioners can call to check their eligibility on 0800 731 panel. 0214. I am confident that Ali’s appointment will ensure Where eligible, the deduction will be taken automatically that the inquiry panel has the diversity of skills and from energy bills before March 2021, with most pensioners expertise necessary for the scope and complexity of receiving their discounts between now and January. issues to be addressed by phase 2 of its work. Up to a further 1.2 million low income, working age I wrote to the chair of the inquiry, Sir Martin Moore- households can also benefit from a £140 discount from Bick, on 12 October informing him of my decision and their supplier. These customers must meet an individual to seek his consent to the appointment in accordance energy supplier’s criteria for the scheme to qualify, with section 7(2)(b) of the Inquiries Act 2005. Sir Martin which will include being in receipt of certain means-tested replied on 13 October consenting to the appointment. benefits. Ali will read into the work of the inquiry while he The WHDS also provides a range of initiatives to formally steps back from his role at Unity and will join benefit fuel poor and vulnerable households, including the inquiry panel on 2 November for the start of module 2 debt assistance, benefit entitlement checks and energy of its work. It is intended that Ali will sit for the advice to domestic customers in or at risk of fuel duration of the inquiry and, alongside his two fellow poverty. panel members, will be jointly responsible for the whole of the inquiry’s phase 2 work. More information on the warm home discount scheme is available at gov.uk/the-warm-home-discount-scheme. Our exchange of letters can be found on gov.uk. [HCWS512] [HCWS513] 1P Petitions 14 OCTOBER 2020 Petitions 2P

role in scrutinising the Executive and as a revising Petition Chamber; it is important that the way it is constituted reflects that role and the primacy of the House of Wednesday 14 October 2020 Commons as the elected Chamber. The Conservative 2019 manifesto committed to looking at the role of the Lords, but any reform needs careful consideration, not OBSERVATIONS to be brought forward piecemeal. The size of the Lords needs addressing, but given retirements and other departures, some new Members CABINET OFFICE are essential to keep the expertise and outlook of the Lords fresh. This will ensure the Lords continues to Abolition of the House of Lords fulfil its role in scrutinising and revising legislation, whilst respecting the primacy of the Commons and the The petition of residents of the constituency of North associated conventions between the two Houses. Ayrshire and Arran, Members of the House of Lords are appointed from Declares that the House of Lords is unrepresentative a wide range of backgrounds, and one of the most of and unaccountable to the general UK population, valued aspects of the House of the Lords is the expertise over which it makes decisions and casts votes on important and experience that Members are able to bring to the issues; expresses concern at the recent creation of 36 new work they do. The relationship between the Church life peers, increasing the size of the House of Lords to and the state in England is an important part of the nearly 800 Members,despite the Government’scommitment constitutional framework which has evolved over centuries. to reducing the size of the House of Lords; notes that Bishops provide an independent voice and spiritual the House of Lords is the largest parliamentary chamber insight into the work of the upper house. It is also the in any democracy; further notes that the House of case that the House of Lords Appointments Commission Lords is one of very few parliamentary bodies in the (HOLAC) vets nominations for all life peers, including world with reserved places for members of the clergy; those recommended by the UK political parties, to further notes concern over the number of peers that fail ensure the highest standards of propriety. to speak in the chamber yet are able to claim expenses, for example in 2016-17 when 115 peers failed to speak Members’ allowances are a matter for the House. even once yet still claimed £1.3 million between them; Most Members do not receive a salary for their and further notes concern over the high proportion of parliamentary duties but are eligible to receive allowances members of the House of Lords who were, before their and, within certain limits, the travel expenses they incur elevation, significant donors to political parties. in fulfilling their parliamentary duties. Peers attend Parliament in a number of ways, including speaking in The petitioners therefore request that the House of the Chamber, but also through serving on Committees Commons urges the Government to abolish the House of the House and voting. The House of Lords Guide to of Lords in the interests of democracy, accountability Financial Support for Members lays out a list of activities and transparency. which constitute “attendance” for which members And the petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Patricia can claim. Gibson, Official Report, 02 September 2020; Vol. 679, https://www.parliament.uk/globalassets/documents/ c. 254 .] lords-finance-office/members-guide-apr2019.pdf [P002592] The Government have an aspiration that all parts of Observations from The Minister for the Constitution the United Kingdom should feel connected to politics and Devolution (Chloe Smith): The Government have and indeed to politicians. We are considering how to no plans to abolish the House of Lords, which has a key further this objective.

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 14 October 2020

Col. No. Col. No. PRIME MINISTER ...... 363 WALES—continued Engagements...... 363 Covid-19 Restrictions...... 354 EU Trade Negotiations ...... 353 WALES...... 353 Full-fibre Broadband Network ...... 361 City and Growth Deals ...... 358 Storm Dennis...... 356 Covid-19: Economic Recovery ...... 359 Strengthening the Union...... 362 Covid-19: Employment Support ...... 360 UK Internal Market Bill ...... 359 Covid-19: Financial Support...... 356 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Wednesday 14 October 2020

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, ENERGY AND INDUSTRIAL PRIME MINISTER ...... 22WS STRATEGY ...... 21WS Appointment Update...... 22WS International Vaccines Procurement Initiative (COVAX): UK Participation...... 21WS WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 24WS CABINET OFFICE...... 22WS Warm Home Discount Scheme: Pensioner Withdrawal Agreement Joint Committee Meeting . 22WS Support...... 24WS PETITION

Wednesday 14 October 2020

Col. No. CABINET OFFICE...... 1P Abolition of the House of Lords ...... 1P No proofs can be supplied. Corrections that Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked on a copy of the daily Hansard - not telephoned - and must be received in the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Wednesday 21 October 2020

STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT GREATLY FACILITATES THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF BOUND VOLUMES

Members may obtain excerpts of their speeches from the Official Report (within one month from the date of publication), by applying to the Editor of the Official Report, House of Commons. Volume 682 Wednesday No. 119 14 October 2020

CONTENTS

Wednesday 14 October 2020

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 353] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Wales Prime Minister

Election Candidates (All-Ethnic-minority Shortlists) [Col. 373] Bill presented, and read the First time

Dogs and Domestic Animals (Accommodation and Protection) [Col. 374] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Andrew Rosindell)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Opposition Day [12th allotted day] Covid-19 Economic Support Package [Col. 377] Motion—(Anneliese Dodds)—on a Division, negatived Amendment—(Rishi Sunak)—agreed to Motion, as amended, agreed to Local Contact Tracing [Col. 437] Motion—(Rachel Reeves)—on a Division, negatived Amendment—(Jo Churchill)—agreed to Motion, as amended, agreed to

Petition [Col. 487]

Electricity Generation: Local Suppliers [Col. 488] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Lord Chancellor’s Oath and Rule of Law [Col. 129WH] RAF Valley: Funding and Employment [Col. 154WH] Jet Zero Council [Col. 163WH] Capital Infrastructure Projects: Bristol [Col. 186WH] Productivity: Rural Areas [Col. 195WH] General Debates

Written Statements [Col. 21WS]

Petition [Col. 1P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [The written answers can now be found at http://www.parliament.uk/writtenanswers]