Wednesday Volume 589 10 December 2014 No. 78

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 10 December 2014

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2014 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 855 10 DECEMBER 2014 856

gets the UK’s second most FDI per head, with a 32% House of Commons increase last year. Foreign investors are recognising that Northern Ireland is a great place in which to invest. The Wednesday 10 December 2014 latest figures are extremely encouraging.

The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock Robert Jenrick: I welcome the Chancellor’s announcement that corporation tax setting powers PRAYERS will be on their way to Northern Ireland. The Northern Ireland economy is of course very heavily dependent on public sector jobs. What more can the Government do, [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] using the corporation tax powers when they come, to encourage inward investment and innovation in Northern Oral Answers to Questions Ireland? Dr Murrison: The Chancellor has expressed our desire to devolve that power to the Executive, and the Executive NORTHERN IRELAND is keen to take it on. The extent to which it will impact on the Northern Ireland economy is of course a matter The Secretary of State was asked— for the Executive—as is the level at which they wish to pitch corporation tax, once devolved—but they have Economy/Inward Investment suggested that up to 40,000 jobs might be created in Northern Ireland by having the power. It is particularly 1. Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): What steps important for encouraging the private sector. As my her Department is taking to strengthen the economy hon. Friend will know, we are trying with the Executive of, and increase inward investment to, Northern Ireland. to rebalance the economy so that the private sector is [906458] encouraged, and the devolution of corporation tax is an important part of that. 2. Robert Jenrick (Newark) (Con): What steps her Department is taking to strengthen the economy of, Neil Carmichael: Does the Minister agree that the and increase inward investment to, Northern Ireland. Government’s key extra measure of focusing on skills [906459] and making sure that people are properly trained, coupled 3. Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): What steps she is with business investment, is precisely the way to improve taking to promote business investment in Northern productivity and therefore living standards? Ireland. [906460] Dr Murrison: I absolutely agree. My hon. Friend will The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern have noted that the changes to national insurance in Ireland (Dr Andrew Murrison): May I first thank you, particular in the autumn statement are very much focused Mr Speaker, Opposition Front Benchers and the House on getting young people into employment. The national for your indulgence in allowing the Secretary of State to insurance rebate is extremely helpful for small business be absent, exceptionally, today? As you know, she is in particular. He will have read with pleasure, as I have, chairing the extremely important talks at Stormont, the list of firms that are increasing their presence or and we hope that they will come to a satisfactory investing for the first time in Northern Ireland. It is conclusion very soon. She takes her duties in this House truly impressive, and it just shows what a great place very seriously, as you know, and she is grateful to you Northern Ireland now is in which to invest. for your indulgence today. The Government’s long-term economic plan is working Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): The Minister for Northern Ireland, and the UK Government continue rightly referred to the big increase in foreign direct to work with the Executive to promote Northern Ireland investment under the Northern Ireland Executive in as a great place to invest. Political stability is paramount recent years, but does he agree that the Executive has to in attracting further investment, and I encourage the deal with many issues and problems that are unique parties to make significant progress in the current cross-party to Northern Ireland? The legacy of the past causes a talks. financial drag on the Executive—increased expenditure— Glyn Davies: As a result of the autumn statement, and that has to be addressed by the parties and the 12,000 people in Northern Ireland will be lifted out of Government in the talks this week. income tax altogether following the increase in personal allowances, and almost every home buyer will pay less Dr Murrison: The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely stamp duty. Does my hon. Friend agree that the autumn correct. The past still hangs heavy over Northern Ireland. statement will bring great benefit to the whole of Northern For people of my generation, our image of Belfast in Ireland and its people? particular is of course shadowed by what we saw on the television screen all those years ago. Investors who are Dr Murrison: Yes, I very much do. It is quite clear now looking to Northern Ireland still have those images that we need to increase prosperity in Northern Ireland. in their minds, and we need to overcome that. The Prosperity is the key to improving security, as indeed is security situation is key to this, and the improvement in security to the prosperity of Northern Ireland. It is the security situation has been instrumental in making worth noting the substantial amount of foreign direct Northern Ireland look and feel a far better place in investment that Northern Ireland is now attracting. It which to invest. 857 Oral Answers10 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 858

Mr Dodds: Does the Minister agree that, as we all very positive in suggesting that it may well be possible accept, political stability is absolutely key in growing to arrange a trade mission to come from America to the economy in Northern Ireland and creating the Northern Ireland to see what the possibilities are. Will conditions for economic prosperity? In his recent remarks the Minister follow up such a suggestion? in Enniskillen on 24 November, Gerry Adams said that his party was using equality to “break” Unionists—he Dr Murrison: I am very pleased that my hon. Friend actually used a foul-mouthed expletive at that point. He has met Senator Gary Hart, who is very much part of said that that was the republican strategy. Does the the current talks process. Apropos my remarks earlier Minister agree that such language on the use of a policy about foreign direct investment, I am pleased to say that such as equality is deeply offensive to everybody in it is going up dramatically, although clearly it is not Northern Ireland, undermines political stability and enough, and we would like to see far more in Northern confidence and shows that Sinn Fein’s honeyed words Ireland from America and elsewhere. I would certainly and positive language sometimes mask a deeply disturbing welcome such a proposition. policy? Security Situation Dr Murrison: I think Sinn Fein needs to be very careful about the language it uses, as indeed do all 4. Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): What politicians. People are looking at Northern Ireland as a recent assessment she has made of the security potential place to invest and are put off by that kind of situation in Northern Ireland. [906461] posturing. It is very important that all parties work together to continue making Northern Ireland a great The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern place to invest. Ireland (Dr Andrew Murrison): The safety of people and communities remains the Government’s top priority in Northern Ireland. Although the threat level in Northern Mr Ivan Lewis (Bury South) (Lab): As the Minister Ireland remains at severe, excellent co-operation between said, central to attracting business investment into Northern the Police Service of Northern Ireland and its partners Ireland is political stability and leadership. In that context, has put violent dissident republicans under strain in the Opposition welcome the Prime Minister’s planned recent months. There have been a number of significant visit to Northern Ireland later this week and his intention arrests, charges and convictions, which are helping to to participate, alongside the Taoiseach, in the current suppress the threat. all-party talks. Will the Minister assure the House that, alongside an agreement on the budget, including welfare Dr McCrea: I thank the Minister for his update on reform, the Government are at the very least seeking to the serious nature of the security threat from republican secure agreements on the past and on parades? terrorists and the absolute necessity of defeating them. Does the Minister also accept that there are those Dr Murrison: The talks are comprehensive, and it is who violate the sanctity of the homes of elderly people hoped that their outcome will be ambitious. The hon. living in our community, threatening and terrorising Gentleman is right that issues around the legacy of the them? Should not those criminals get custodial sentences past are central to what is being discussed in Stormont of at least seven years, irrespective of how little or how at the moment. I am hopeful that by the end of the week much they actually steal through their criminal activity? we will have a positive outcome, but all parties need to understand that this is part of a process and that they Dr Murrison: I will not be drawn on matters that are must remain engaged. Let us hope for some good news outside my sphere of competence, and I would certainly in a few days’ time. defer to the Department of Justice for action on many of the issues that the hon. Gentleman raises. I know that the PSNI takes these matters extremely seriously, Mr Lewis: I thank the Minister for that answer. Will as do the Government, and appropriate action must be he clarify whether the Government are linking the taken. devolution of corporation tax solely to the parties reaching an agreement on next year’s budget? Surely the Dr Alasdair McDonnell (Belfast South) (SDLP): Does decision should be based on longer-term considerations the Minister agree that the greatest contribution to such as the impact on jobs and growth and the block increasing overall security would be a successful and grant in Northern Ireland, as well as on the implications comprehensive outcome to the talks, which enter a vital for the rest of the United Kingdom? period this week? It is important that we confront not only the problems of today but the wounds of the Dr Murrison: No, I think it is important that corporation brutality and violence of the past. Is the Minister aware tax is seen as part of a whole. It cannot be taken in that a number of families are in Westminster today as isolation, and it is important that the Executive formulate part of their campaign looking for justice and for a balanced budget that takes welfare reform into account. answers? Without that balanced budget, it is difficult to see how we can reasonably devolve an important power such as Dr Murrison: May I thank the hon. Gentleman, that. particularly for his contribution to the current talks? He is correct to say that the outcome of those talks will have a big impact on security in Northern Ireland, and Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): Just a we must all understand that. All parties must understand week ago, the members of the Northern Ireland Affairs the extent of the stakes, because if this process fails I am Committee met Senator Gary Hart in Belfast. He was afraid that the future will not look good. The positive 859 Oral Answers10 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 860 developments that we have already discussed today what assessment has the Minister made of the impact of cannot be guaranteed, so we must ensure that the talks current and projected budget cuts on police numbers have a positive, comprehensive outcome. and public protection?

Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (UKIP): Is Dr Murrison: The deployment of police assets is a the Minister satisfied that appropriate and, as necessary, matter for the Chief Constable and the Department of enhanced security measures are in place over the festive Justice, which broadly takes its funding from two sources— season? the block grant, plus additional security funding provided by the UK Government, which, as the hon. Gentleman Dr Murrison: That is a matter for the Minister of will know, amounts to £31 million in the next financial Justice in the Executive and the Police Service of Northern year. I know that the Chief Constable greatly values Ireland. I know that as we approach Christmas the that additional resource to cover some of the additional tempo of operations by dissidents in particular has a security costs in Northern Ireland, but principal tendency to increase. The PSNI and the Department of responsibility for the deployment of that resource rests Justice are aware of that and making appropriate and remains with the Minister of Justice. preparations. Party Funding Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): There is a high level of dissident republican activity over Christmas 5. Mr Andrew Robathan (South Leicestershire) (Con): and new year, and there is evidence that dissident republicans What assessment she has made of the level of have direct contact with terrorist groups in north Africa transparency of political party funding in Northern and the middle east. Will the Minister outline what Ireland; and if she will make a statement. [906462] discussions have taken place with Governments from that region to ensure that the flow of weapons and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern bomb-making expertise is stopped? Ireland (Dr Andrew Murrison): Political parties in Northern Ireland must report funding they receive to the Electoral Dr Murrison: Those matters are primarily for my Commission, but this is not published owing to the risk right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, and she is in of donor intimidation. Legislation will be brought forward touch with relevant countries to ensure that the threat shortly to increase the information available about party of terrorism from individuals from countries outside funding in Northern Ireland, while still protecting donor the United Kingdom is reduced as far as possible. The identities. hon. Gentleman will be following closely the progress of the Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill through this Mr Robathan: Section 15A of the Northern Ireland House, as that is relevant to the issue he raises. (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2006 makes provision for funding to be published and, thanks to the excellent Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): In recent weeks Library, I have today read the Sinn Fein accounts, the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee heard from which told me next to nothing, needless to say. Sinn officials in Northern Ireland and the police service that Fein’s money used to come from the IRA through cuts to budgets are already leading to long delays in the nefarious activities. Does my hon. Friend agree that it is resolution of actions covered by the Historical Enquiries important for the integrity of the political process in Team. Will the Minister look into that and ensure that Northern Ireland that we have transparency in political no further cuts lead to people who should have had funding as soon as possible so that we can learn whether justice years ago having to wait even longer? People are Sinn Fein is taking a legal approach? already waiting three times longer than was originally scheduled. Dr Murrison: I certainly agree with my right hon. Friend that transparency of funding of political parties Dr Murrison: The spending power of the Executive is essential. Indeed, I see on the Sinn Fein website that it has increased since the beginning of this Parliament is the stated intention of that party itself. Although the and will continue to do so. Spending within the police material published on the Electoral Commission’s website budget is a matter for the Chief Constable, who has set in relation to Sinn Fein’s accounts is basic, I hope that up the historical legacies team from the Historical Enquiries the new legislation—in which my right hon. Friend was Team. A further body is under discussion as part of the very much involved—will give us greater clarity, although current talks. it is important that donor identity is preserved.

Mr Ivan Lewis (Bury South) (Lab): I understand fully Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): We had the scandal the concerns expressed by the hon. Member for South of the on-the-runs, we had the scandal that for 10 years Antrim (Dr McCrea) about the recent horrendous attack people associated with one political party were involved in Lisburn on an elderly person, although I am not in fuel smuggling to raise money, and we have the authorised to speak on sentencing policy on behalf of ongoing scandal of elected Members not taking their my party. The first responsibility of any Government in seats but receiving money from the House. When will relation to Northern Ireland remains security. In the the Government address that? run-up to Christmas when threat levels are high, as other hon. Members have said, we owe a particular debt Dr Murrison: People considering how to cast their of gratitude to the brave men and women who serve in votes should pay particular attention to the work that the Police Service of Northern Ireland. Looking ahead, their elected representatives do here. That increasingly 861 Oral Answers10 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 862 appears to be the case and, given the current circumstances, in Northern Ireland, which is substantial. It will certainly I would have thought that it applied to Sinn Fein more help to improve and enhance the level of foreign direct than any. investment, which I have touched on already. That is impressive, but it has to be sustained. It is particularly Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD): While I wholly interesting to note that in the Office for National Statistics support the cross-party consensus on transparency in figures announced today, one of the highest sub-regional political funding in Northern Ireland, I would like a centres in the UK, in terms of gross value added per commitment from the Government that they will capita, is Belfast. We need to grow the economy in continually reassess the position. Until we have full Belfast. The devolution of corporation tax would play transparency, Northern Ireland will not be wholly free. an important part in that.

Dr Murrison: We are all working towards complete Chris Evans: Will the Minister give a guarantee that normality in Northern Ireland. The assessment at the the devolution of corporation tax will not have an moment is that we are not there yet, and for security adverse effect on the block grant to the Northern Ireland reasons we have to ensure that donors have anonymity. Executive? My hon. Friend must accept that, but it is an issue that needs to be kept under constant review. At some point— sooner rather than later, I hope—we will be able to Dr Murrison: No, I cannot, because the EU Azores normalise that aspect of election law across the United rules mean that it has to be taken into account. Kingdom. Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind): With the general Whenever the Minister is speaking with his right hon. election only five months away, can the Minister confirm Friends the Secretary of State and the Prime Minister, that the Northern Ireland Office has already sought an will he ensure that ongoing talks will consider the assessment from the Chief Constable of the risk of possibility of additional resources, so that the skilled violence to donors to political parties in Northern work force in Northern Ireland can become a pool of Ireland? employees for inward investors who take advantage of corporation tax? Dr Murrison: The provisions in the Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act should protect the identity Dr Murrison: The hon. Gentleman will be familiar of donors, but if they wish to make themselves known with the economic pact published about 18 months ago through the Electoral Commission, they can do so. In and updated during the summer, which gave significant the run-up to the general election, the security services new powers to promote the economy, in particular to in Northern Ireland are well aware of increased threats grow jobs, and there was a significant amount of lending to individuals that may obtain, including those whom as a result. It has been successful. The groundwork has the hon. Lady mentions. been laid and we have seen, in the figures I have quoted today, that it is having some level of success. Corporation Corporation Tax tax will take that to the next level.

6. Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab): 10. [906467] Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): When the Government plan to publish an analysis Last week, the Chancellor of the Exchequer said that of the potential effect of introducing a devolved rate of the figures on the cost of devolving power over corporation tax in Northern Ireland. [906463] corporation tax to the Northern Ireland Executive were given to the Executive. Will the Minister spell out to 8. Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op): When the us the cost to the block grant and the timeline for Government plan to publish an analysis of the implementation? potential effect of introducing a devolved rate of corporation tax in Northern Ireland. [906465] Dr Murrison: That very much depends on whether the powers are taken up by the Executive and the extent The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern to which they are taken up. The hon. Lady will be aware Ireland (Dr Andrew Murrison): The autumn statement that corporation tax in the last financial year raised in set out that the Government are in favour of devolving excess of £400 million. Were corporation tax to be corporation tax powers to the Northern Ireland Assembly. devolved, and reduced as far as it possibly could be, If the powers were devolved, the Executive would be then we are talking about that sort of figure. responsible for setting the rate of corporation tax in Northern Ireland. The effect would therefore be dependent on the approach taken by the Executive. 13. [906470] Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab): Is the Minister aware that the Nevin Economic Research Mr Brown: What assessment has been made of the Institute warns that £400 million will have to be cut effect of the Government’s economic and welfare policies from public spending in Northern Ireland should in Northern Ireland on the feasibility of devolving corporation tax be moved there? corporation tax? Can the Minister give the House a fuller explanation? Dr Murrison: That is a matter for the Executive. They need to make a judgment on whether it will produce a Dr Murrison: It is estimated by the Executive that the net improvement to the economy in Northern Ireland. devolution of corporation tax, and the implementation They have decided that it will create up to 40,000 extra of the cuts it envisages, would result in 40,000 new jobs jobs, so they clearly believe that corporation tax will 863 Oral Answers10 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 864 have a net benefit to the economy of Northern Ireland, at Craigavon. Further such measures will be considered. but they will have to find the money from the block The important thing is to increase the number of grant. apprenticeships in Northern Ireland, and the national insurance contributions announced in the autumn statement Welfare Cap are an important part of that.

7. Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): What assessment she has made of the effect in Northern Ireland of the introduction of the welfare cap. [906464] PRIME MINISTER

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Dr Andrew Murrison): Welfare expenditure accounts The Prime Minister was asked— for one-sixth of all public spending. The introduction of a UK welfare cap was overwhelmingly approved by Engagements 520 Members of this House, although I accept not by the hon. Gentleman. The cap ensures that social security Q1. [906543] Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) expenditure remains fair to claimants and yet affordable (Lab/Co-op): If he will list his official engagements for to taxpayers in both Northern Ireland and Great Britain. Wednesday 10 December.

Mark Durkan: On welfare spending in Northern The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg): Ihave Ireland, what assurance can the Minister give that the been asked to reply on behalf of my right hon. Friend operation of the cap will not entail a cap within a cap in the Prime Minister, who is visiting Turkey and Auschwitz. ways that mean future benefit take-up campaigns will, for the first time, be at the expense of other benefits, This morning, I had meetings with ministerial colleagues which has never been the case in the past? and others, and in addition to my duties in the House, I shall have further such meetings later today. Dr Murrison: The hon. Gentleman is perhaps confusing the welfare cap with the benefit cap. It is important to Jonathan Reynolds: Last week, the Deputy Prime note that the previous Minister in the Department for Minister refused to attend the autumn statement. Exactly Social Development, Nelson McCausland, said that which parts of the statement did he most object to? universal credit will lift 10,000 children out of poverty, and that most people in Northern Ireland will benefit The Deputy Prime Minister: The autumn statement from the change in the welfare rules. This has a substantial was a coalition autumn statement. I spent one day in capacity to improve the lives of those who are reliant on Cornwall; Opposition Members have spent five years in welfare in Northern Ireland. cloud cuckoo land when it comes to the economy, and the Government side of the House has been clearing up Youth Unemployment the mess they created.

9. Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab): What steps Mr Peter Lilley (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con): In she is taking to tackle youth unemployment in Northern the light of my right hon. Friend’s enthusiasm for devolving powers from the UK Government to the Ireland. [906466] component parts of the UK, does he have similar plans The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern for devolving competences from Europe to the UK? Ireland (Dr Andrew Murrison): The November labour market survey reports that the unemployment rate in The Deputy Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman Northern Ireland for 18 to 24-year-olds has come down might be surprised to know that I once wrote a booklet 5% over the year, and the Government are directly about that very idea. Just as we must do at a European helping to get young people into work by abolishing level what nation states cannot do on their own—on the national insurance contributions for businesses employing environment, globalisation, trade talks and so on—so under-21s and apprentices aged under 25. other powers should be devolved downwards where possible. Ann McKechin: The Minister will be aware that unemployment in Northern Ireland is much higher than Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab): the UK average, and a recent survey by the Belfast It is good to see the Deputy Prime Minister back in his Telegraph found that two thirds of young people wanted place after his important day trip during the important to leave Northern Ireland. What specific steps is he statement last week. taking to improve skills and training to encourage young Since he became Deputy Prime Minister, he has had people to stay in Northern Ireland? the opportunity to appoint seven Cabinet members. Will he remind the House how many have been women? Dr Murrison: Of course, these are matters primarily for the Department for Employment and Learning, The Deputy Prime Minister: The right hon. and learned with which the Government work closely. I hope the Lady knows exactly who the members of the Cabinet hon. Lady will be aware of the economic plan published are from the Liberal Democrat team. I would remind 18 months ago in collaboration with the Northern her, however, that millions of women in this country Ireland Executive laying out the steps that we would have got from this Government what they never got take jointly to promote a shared and integrated future, from her Government: better pensions; more jobs; tax including the creation of the further education college cuts; shared parental leave; better child care; and more 865 Oral Answers10 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 866 flexible working. Instead of scoring Westminster points, than ever before. The Labour party is becoming the why does she not do the right thing for millions of Lance Armstrong of British politics: it has forgotten women around the country? the better half of a decade of how it messed things up.

Ms Harman: The right hon. Gentleman is reluctant Ms Harman: I will tell the Deputy Prime Minister to answer the question, which is unlike him, because and the House the reality for people who are paying the normally when he is asked about numbers and women, bedroom tax. Two thirds of those hit by the bedroom he is quite forthcoming. I will tell the House the answer: tax are women. It does not seem that there is any four and a half years as Deputy Prime Minister, seven shortage of spare rooms in Downing street for the spin Cabinet appointments, and not one woman. And this is doctors to spin against each other. Let me ask him not a Westminster point, because it affects what they about something else. Of the £26 billion this Government do. So will he tell the House, since his Government have raised through changes to benefits and direct introduced tribunal fees, what has been the fall in the taxes, a staggering £22 billion has come from women. number of sex discrimination cases? Can he explain why? The Deputy Prime Minister: I think it is time to call The Deputy Prime Minister: I do not have that statistic out the right hon. and learned Lady on her Government’s to hand, but I am happy to provide it to the right hon. record. Under Labour, unemployment was higher; female and learned Lady. Once again, however, she displays her unemployment was higher; youth unemployment was and her party’s total denial about their record on women. higher; inequality was higher; child poverty was higher; Female unemployment rose 24% under Labour, and in pensioner poverty was higher; relative poverty was higher; one year women were given a paltry 75p rise in the state fuel poverty was higher; and income tax for low and pension—scandalous, a total shame. Through our new, middle-income earners, including millions of women, fairer single-tier pension, 650,000 women will get an was higher. When will she come to admit that her party extra £400 a year from 2016, and I care more about created so much of the mess that this side of the House those 650,000 women across the country than I do has had to clear up? about anyone around the Cabinet table. Ms Harman: The right hon. Gentleman has just Ms Harman: I will answer the question since the right demonstrated that he is completely out of touch with hon. Gentleman has not. Since the introduction of their women’s lives. It is always the same with this Deputy tribunal fees, there has been a 90% fall in women taking Prime Minister. He talks the talk, but he walks through sex discrimination cases to a tribunal, including women the Lobby with the Tories. He briefs against them, but who have been discriminated against at work because he always votes with them. He complains about the they are pregnant. autumn statement, but he signed it off. That is why people will never trust him or his party ever again. Let me turn to another of the right hon. Gentleman’s key decisions. Of those who get the millionaires’ tax cut, The Deputy Prime Minister: Does the right hon. and what percentage are men? learned Lady seriously think that the British people are going to trust her and her party on the economy? Of The Deputy Prime Minister: This is quite breathtaking. course not. Manufacturing jobs were destroyed three Is the right hon. and learned Lady not aware that of the times faster under Labour than they were under Margaret over 26 million people who have benefited from our tax Thatcher. This was the party—[Interruption.] In fact, cuts for low and middle-income earners, the tax cut has the shadow Health Secretary, sitting there demurely, is disproportionately gone to women? Is she not aware the only man in England who has ever privatised an that under her Government the top rate of tax was NHS hospital, and they dare to lecture us. [Interruption.] 40p—5p lower than it is under this Government? Is she Hinchingbrooke hospital—the only NHS hospital to be not aware that there are now more women in employment privatised, and by the Labour party. Inequality higher than ever before? That is a record of which we are very under Labour; privatisation of the NHS higher under proud indeed. Labour; and an economy destroyed under Labour.

Q2. [906544] Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con): Ms Harman: And he should be aware that any gains My constituents will have been delighted to hear the on tax changes for women have been more than wiped Deputy Prime Minister support last week’s excellent out by the hit they have taken on the cuts to tax credits. autumn statement, because they know that it is the And yes, I would indeed agree with him that it is only credible plan for economic recovery. They have breathtaking that 85% of those who benefit from the been worried about scurrilous rumours that he wants millionaires’ tax cut are men. Let us try him on another to raise taxes and impose a homes tax in the next one. What proportion of those hit by his bedroom tax Parliament, but, in view of his answer to Question 1, are women? that cannot be true. Will he now confirm his loyalty to the long-term economic plan, which is bringing jobs The Deputy Prime Minister: Since the right hon. and and growth to people in Wimbledon? learned Lady is losing her way a bit with the statistics, let me tell her that we have cut tax for 11.9 million The Deputy Prime Minister: Of course I agree women, and that the gender pay gap for women under wholeheartedly with my hon. Friend that we must stay the age of 40 has pretty well disappeared under this the course in order to finish the job, and finish it fairly. coalition. Under her Government, only one in eight of He may be aware that the long-term youth claimant the FTSE 100 board members were women. Under this count in his constituency has fallen by a full 40% in the Government, there are more women on FTSE 100 boards last year alone, which is an extraordinary achievement. 867 Oral Answers10 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 868

As my hon. Friend knows, my view is that it is simply We have stuck to that timetable religiously so far. In not fair or justifiable to apply council tax bands to fact, despite predictions to the contrary by the Scottish low-value properties without adopting the same approach National party, we have over-delivered on the commitments to high-value properties. Why should a family living in a regarding further devolution to Scotland. family home in Lewisham pay the same council tax as As the hon. Gentleman knows, a lively debate is someone living in a £10 million palace, possibly in taking place about the franchise for 16 and 17-year-olds. Wimbledon? That does not make sense to me, and it My party has always believed that we should give them should change. the right to vote. They took up that right with alacrity at the time of the Scottish referendum, but the issue will Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): My 69-year-old clearly continue to be debated across parties in the Atherton constituent Margaret was run over by a car, House. and was left bleeding in the road for 90 minutes before the ambulance turned up. The Chancellor said last Mr Speaker: I call Mr Michael Thornton. week that the Government had made cuts without affecting front-line services. Does the Deputy Prime Minister agree with the Chancellor, or does he regret Mike Thornton (Eastleigh) (LD): Thank you, Mr Speaker. supporting every cut that the Government have made? I am a bit surprised!

The Deputy Prime Minister: What I regret enormously Mr Speaker: The hon. Gentleman was standing, so is the fact that every household in the hon. Lady’s presumably he was standing in the hope of being called. constituency—indeed, every household in all our I do not know why he is so surprised. constituencies—took a hit of £3,000 because of the crash in 2008, which was caused in large part by the Mike Thornton: Sometimes I worry I might forget absolute neglect of the Labour party in government. where I am. That is what I regret. The economy has suffered a Some of the most heart-rending cases in my surgery cardiac arrest the likes of which we have not seen before on a weekly basis involve people who have had mental during the post-war period. I am very proud of the fact health difficulties and feel let down by the national that this coalition Government are making painstaking, health service and other organisations set up to help if controversial, decisions to ensure that we live within them. Does the Deputy Prime Minister agree with me our means rather than simply burdening our children that it is time we did more? and grandchildren with this generation’s mistakes. The Deputy Prime Minister: I suspect that many Q3. [906545] Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): My Members from all parties in this House will agree that constituents in Dover and Deal are very concerned mental health services have for too long been treated as about border security and the situation that we have a poor cousin—a Cinderella service—in the NHS and seen in Calais this year. Does the Deputy Prime Minister have been systematically underfunded for a long time. agree that, while we have acted, the European Union That is why I am delighted to say that the coalition should take more responsibility for people trafficking Government have announced that we will be introducing and the problems of Schengen open borders, and that it new access and waiting time standards for mental health should make Italy take responsibility as the first country conditions such as have been in existence for physical for asylum claimants on the island of Lampedusa? health conditions for a long time. Over time, as reflected in the new NHS mandate, we must ensure that mental The Deputy Prime Minister: Of course I understand health is treated with equality of resources and esteem what an important issue this is for my hon. Friend and compared with any other part of the NHS. his constituents. I agree with him that it is a problem shared and that therefore the solution needs to be Q5. [906547] Kevin Barron (Rother Valley) (Lab): shared as well, across the European Union. That is one When the Health and Social Care Act 2012 passed of the reasons why I have always been an advocate of through Parliament, the Government said it was not cross-border co-operation in the EU on issues concerning about privatisation. A recent study by the British Medical people who cross our borders. We cannot act on our Journal says that one third of all contracts have gone to own. I agree with my hon. Friend that, whenever possible, the private sector and only 10% to the voluntary and the European Union should act effectively and together. social enterprise sector. Does the Deputy Prime Minister regret supporting that legislation? Q4. [906546] Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab): Opposition Members have called for a section 30 The Deputy Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman order to fast-track elements of the Smith commission is being highly selective in describing what that report to Scotland, especially votes for 16 and 17-year-olds in said. It actually said that of all NHS budget contracts, the 2016 Scottish Parliament election. I know that the 6% had gone to the private sector. Guess how high it Deputy Prime Minister’s boss does not usually allow was when this Government took office: 5%. So Labour him to make the big decisions, but as he is in the big presided over a 5% delivery of contracts to the private seat today, will he commit himself to going ahead with sector, and we have added 1%. The Opposition delivered the section 30 order now? £250 million-worth of sweetheart deals to the NHS, deliberately undercutting the NHS for operations that The Deputy Prime Minister: We will stick to the did not help a single NHS patient in the country—and timetable to which all the main parties in Westminster they have the gall to lecture us on the privatisation of committed themselves at the time of the referendum. the NHS! 869 Oral Answers10 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 870

Sir Alan Duncan (Rutland and Melton) (Con): Will would be a “post-Soviet” meltdown and that people the Deputy Prime Minister unreservedly condemn what would be fending for themselves on the streets, but we appears to be the killing this morning by the Israeli now have fewer young people than ever in Sheffield who defence force of the Palestinian Government Minister are not in education, employment or training. There are Ziad Abu Ein, who was doing nothing more than fewer NEETs in that great city than ever before, and we protesting in his own country against illegal demolitions are seeing that repeated across the country. That is a and the destruction of ancient olive groves by the state result of a balanced, pragmatic, non-ideological approach of Israel? Will Her Majesty’s Government join in to balancing the books steadily over time. international pressure demanding a full investigation and then calling, should it be so justified, for the prosecution Mr Geoffrey Robinson (Coventry North West) (Lab): of the soldier who struck him? Will the Deputy Prime Minister use his evidently widespread support in the coalition ranks, particularly with the The Deputy Prime Minister: Of course I and the Prime Minister, to prevail on the Prime Minister to Government will urgently look into the circumstances honour a pledge he made in June this year to the victims around this killing. Of course we condemn all unwarranted of the contaminated blood scandal that took place in acts of violence on all sides in the middle east. I am not the NHS? That scandal has reflected badly on successive familiar now with the circumstances of this particular Administrations, probably going as far back as that of death, but clearly we want to see restraint exercised on Harold Wilson, if not further. In June the Prime Minister all sides, we want to see an end to illegal settlement undertook to look at and rectify the situation, to the activity and to indiscriminate violence being inflicted extent that that is possible, and this would be one on innocent Israeli citizens, and a demonstrative move promise that the coalition Government have it in their on all sides, which will involve difficult compromises, power to deliver. towards the two-state solution, which is the only means by which peace and security can be delivered to all The Deputy Prime Minister: I am grateful to the hon. communities in the middle east. Gentleman for his question. He is quite right to say that this heart-wrenching issue has dragged on for a very Q6. [906548] Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) long time. If I may, I shall write to him about it. I know (Lab): The Deputy Prime Minister has received donations that steps have been taken to address some of the many totalling £34,500 from the managing director of Autofil legitimate outstanding claims, and I shall look into the Yarns Ltd. What does he think of the fact that workers matter and write to him. at Autofil Yarns Ltd have received the news recently that as many as 160 jobs could be moved overseas—jobs lost to Britain—by Autofil Yarns? Q8. [906550] Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con): The Deputy Prime Minister will be aware that Sherwood The Deputy Prime Minister: Clearly I cannot speak Forest Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust is currently in for Autofil; any company needs to explain its own special measures. What assistance can he give to the business and investment decisions. I am very surprised Health Secretary as he works with the trust to ensure by the hon. Gentleman’s line of questioning, given that continued improvement despite its having to wrestle the Labour party is entirely bankrolled by the puppet- with its £40 million a year repayments on a private masters of the trade unions. For all I know, that question finance initiative deal signed under the previous might have been written for him by his trade union Government? bosses. Surely he would agree with me that it is time we cleaned up party funding on a cross-party basis once The Deputy Prime Minister: I am afraid this is another and for all. example of the Janus-faced approach to the NHS by the party opposite. The Labour Government entered into Q7. [906549] Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): this appalling PFI contract, along with other such In Peterborough, youth unemployment has halved contracts in the NHS, and those contracts are now since 2010, apprenticeships are at record levels and the costing the NHS £1 billion a year. It is an absolute jobseeker’s allowance claimant count has come down scandal that the Sherwood Forest Hospitals NHS 51% in the past four years. In addition, the number of Foundation Trust has been crippled by a botched PFI children living in workless households is now at a deal entered into by the previous Government. The record low nationally. Does the Deputy Prime Minister trust is now receiving central support to address its agree that such achievements—and the policies that underlying financial deficit, and it has developed a plan give rise to them, which were consistently opposed by showing year-on-year improvements in its position, Labour—show political courage and will change including 145 extra nurses, nursing support staff and people’s lives for the better, and are not, as some people doctors since going into special measures. have foolishly suggested, the result of an ideological commitment to austerity? Q9. [906551] Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): If the Deputy Prime Minister had attended the autumn The Deputy Prime Minister: Given that we were told statement, he would have heard the Chancellor claim by the Opposition at the outset of the coalition that that this is a Government who back small businesses. 3 million people would be unemployed, it is striking He could give those words some meaning by backing that there are now more people in work than ever Labour’s plan to outlaw large companies charging before. I find that striking in my own constituency, as small companies to be on their supply list. Will he the hon. Gentleman no doubt does in his. I remember take this opportunity to back that plan in the Small being warned by the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Business, Enterprise and Employment Bill and really Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) that there start to stand up for small firms? 871 Oral Answers10 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 872

The Deputy Prime Minister: Thankfully, we have seen Spending Priorities (Defence) more new and small businesses being created under this coalition Government than since records began. I agree Q12. [906555] Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): with the hon. Gentleman—I think everyone would agree— What recent assessment he has made of the position of about the revelations that have come to light in recent defence in the UK’s spending priorities. days of some large companies, particularly in the food sector, in effect charging small suppliers for the privilege The Deputy Prime Minister: Our defence budget is of providing them with supplies. I know that the right the biggest in the EU and the second largest in NATO. hon. Member, the right hon. Minister, my— This Government are spending 2% of GDP on defence this Parliament—we are one of only four NATO countries Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con): Friend? to do so. Dr Lewis: That was not exactly an answer to the The Deputy Prime Minister: I know that my right question on the Order Paper. Given that this country hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation for decades spent more than 4% on defence, does the and Skills is looking carefully at this matter, and he has Deputy Prime Minister not agree that it would be a already pledged publicly to take action if necessary. disgraceful dereliction of duty if the British Government ever fell below the 2% minimum recommended by NATO? Q10. [906553] Robert Jenrick (Newark) (Con): My constituent Diane Howells visited GPs in Newark The Deputy Prime Minister: As my hon. Friend will 15 times in eight months last year before she was know, we are spending 2% of GDP on defence, and eventually diagnosed with terminal cancer when her have consistently met and exceeded this NATO guideline. son Luke took her to the accident and emergency We are spending more than £160 billion on equipment department in Newark. A quarter of all new cancer and equipment support over the next 10 years, which cases—amounting to 80,000 people a year—are only will ensure that we have one of the best trained and best diagnosed at A and E. Will my right hon. Friend agree equipped armed forces in the world. Decisions on defence to review this tragic case and to back Luke’s campaign spending after 2015-16 will, of course, have to be determined to have cancer ruled out first, rather than last, and to in the next comprehensive spending round. increase referral rates from our GPs? Engagements

The Deputy Prime Minister: Of course I shall look Q13. [906556] Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): What into the case, and I am sure my right hon. Friend the does the Deputy Prime Minister think of the fact that Secretary of State for Health will also be keen to look at under his Government if he now needed an operation it and get back to my hon. Friend. As he knows, the in Devon, he would be denied it because he smokes, as NHS is successfully seeing 51% more patients with would the Communities and Local Government suspected cancers than it was four years ago; survival Secretary because of his size? rates have never been higher; almost nine out of 10 patients say that their care is excellent or very good; and the The Deputy Prime Minister: That’s a bit harsh. I do cancer treatment fund has helped thousands upon not think anyone would disagree with clinicians in thousands of patients. But, of course, where possible we Devon and elsewhere urging patients to look after should always do more. themselves and prepare themselves for operation. My understanding is that the decision—or the announcement mooted—in Devon is about patients preparing for Q11. [906554] Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth operations, but of course I disagree with the idea of, in and Kirkintilloch East) (Lab): The Deputy Prime effect, rationing in this way, which is one of the reasons Minister has made a series of extraordinary claims we have announced, in total, £3 billion of extra money today, but among the most extraordinary is the one, in for our beloved NHS. response to a question from my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Camberwell and Peckham (Ms Harman), that pensioner poverty rose under the Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD): On 13 November, the last Government—in fact, pensioner poverty fell people of Switzerland voted overwhelmingly to retain dramatically. Will he explain to the House what his freedom of movement with the European Union, because source for that claim is? It certainly cannot be the their politicians talked about the economic benefits of Institute for Fiscal Studies, which in 2010 reported that being in the single market. Will the Deputy Prime pensioner poverty fell dramatically under the last Minister continue to do what the City, the CBI and Government. companies in my constituency want, which is to talk about those benefits for the UK and reject the politics of knowing the cost of everything and the value of The Deputy Prime Minister: The source is that what nothing? we are doing is a whole lot better than the insult of 75p. We have delivered the largest cash increase in the state The Deputy Prime Minister: I strongly agree with my pension ever; we have delivered the triple lock guarantee hon. Friend that freedom of movement, which is a for pensioners; and we want to put that into law, so that, privilege and entitlement that more than 1.5 million unlike under Labour, pensioners on the state pension British citizens benefit from across the European Union, will know that because of this coalition Government is something we should defend. But freedom of movement their state pension will go up by a decent amount every is not the same as, and is not synonymous with, the single time. That is my source. freedom to claim, which is why there is now a very 873 Oral Answers10 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 874 healthy debate about how we ensure that freedom of Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD): Last weekend, I movement can be protected while the rules on access to had the pleasure of visiting Motcombe primary school benefits can be changed. in my constituency. It has fought tooth and nail to introduce free school meals, and has been very successful. Fixed-term Parliaments Will the Deputy Prime Minister take this opportunity to congratulate Motcombe and all the primary schools Q14. [906557] Mr Graham Allen (Nottingham North) in my constituency and across England which have (Lab): What assessment he has made of the effect on done such a fantastic job delivering on his policy? the performance of Government of the introduction of five-year fixed term parliaments; and if he will make a statement. The Deputy Prime Minister: Of course I congratulate everybody at Motcombe primary school and all the The Deputy Prime Minister: I am grateful to the hon. primary schools across the country which, despite all Gentleman and the Committee he chairs for their work the scepticism and cynicism, have delivered healthy free on the operation of the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011. school meals at lunchtime to 1.5 million more children. Fixed-term Parliaments give greater predictability and The educational and health benefits are considerable, continuity, enabling better long-term legislative and and I am delighted that we are now doing this across the financial planning. The full effect of introducing fixed-term country. Parliaments is something that can only be assessed over time, which is why the Act will be reviewed in 2020. Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab): With crude oil now below $70 a barrel, will the Deputy Prime Mr Allen: Nearly 25 years ago, I asked the then Prime Minister tell us why that price is not reflected at the Minister, Mrs Thatcher, at Prime Minister’s questions pumps? whether she would set up a national institution to reduce the sexual abuse of children. May I congratulate The Deputy Prime Minister: I know that my right the Deputy Prime Minister and his Government on hon. Friends the Chancellor and the Chief Secretary to setting up, over the past five years, a series of “what the Treasury have raised this with the industry. We all works” organisations to provide best practice including want to see the lower shifts in oil prices across the world early intervention? Will he and other party leaders reflected in the prices on our forecourts. We must continue consider putting in their manifestos the creation of a to focus on that in our dealings with all the oil companies. national institute for the study and prevention of sexual abuse of children so that we do not have another 25 years’ worth of belated inquiries? Such an institute Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): “We should would pre-empt perpetration and help victims with the be clear. It is not wrong to express concern about the best evidence-based practice and programmes both scale of people coming into the country. People have nationally and internationally. understandably become frustrated. It boils down to one word: control.” Does the stand-in Prime Minister agree The Deputy Prime Minister: I happen to know that with the Prime Minister, because they were his words? the hon. Gentleman is seeing my right hon. Friend the Minister for Crime Prevention on that issue next week. I The Deputy Prime Minister: There are some important and my party agree with the hon. Gentleman about the controls that we need to improve and strengthen. It is merits of “what works” initiatives. A “what works” essential that we reintroduce the proper border controls institute for crime prevention would be a good idea. He and exit checks that were removed by previous shines a spotlight on the reprehensible and grotesque Governments. I insisted that that was in the coalition crimes of child sex abuse and exploitation. I agree that agreement. We are now on track to do that, so, just as we need to work together, which is why the National we count people in, we count them out as well. Those Group on Sexual Violence against Children and Vulnerable additional controls are important, because we can then People has been set up, to work across agencies, discover who has overstayed their presence here in the areas and local authorities to bear down on these United Kingdom illegally, which is one of the biggest reprehensible crimes. problems that we face. 875 10 DECEMBER 2014 Points of Order 876

Points of Order Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. The shadow Health Secretary repeatedly 12.33 pm says that there was an NHS bidder in the final three that he left. The last three bidders for the Hinchingbrooke Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and contract were Circle, Ramsay and Serco. Could he let us Kirkintilloch East) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. know which of those he thinks is the NHS bidder? Is it in order for the Deputy Prime Minister to make claims about an issue as important as pensioner poverty and not back them up with any facts whatsoever? If he Mr Speaker: I blame myself. My natural generosity of has inadvertently misled the House, should he not withdraw spirit got the better of me. Because the hon. Gentleman those claims? [Interruption.] is himself a cerebral academic, as distinguished, I am sure, as the hon. Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth Mr Speaker: Order. It is not for me to control who and Kirkintilloch East (Gregg McClymont), I rather remains in the Chamber. As the hon. Gentleman has thought that he might raise a genuine point of order, raised a point of order, I am sure that he will be rather than inappropriately continuing the debate. In interested to hear the reply. I think that I just about future I will know better. The hon. Gentleman might heard, amidst the noise, the gravamen of his point, look very serious, but that does not mean that he is not which related to a claim that the Deputy Prime Minister about to abuse our procedures. gave an answer that was not based upon fact. I simply say that were the Chair to be held responsible for Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) answers, or even for questions, on account of the presence (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Accuracy is or absence of facts, the Chair would be even busier than important in this House. The Deputy Prime Minister he already is. I think that one has to be reasonable about also asserted that the majority of people who would this. Look, it is a point of debate. I say in the gentlest benefit from the increase in tax allowances were women. and most festive spirit to the hon. Gentleman, who was In fact, the House of Commons Library, which we all becoming extremely excited and excitable while awaiting take very seriously, has confirmed that the majority of the answer to his question, that I have always regarded people who will benefit from the increase in tax allowances him to be something of a cerebral academic, and it is are men. most unusual for him to become over-excited. I wish him a very enjoyable Christmas and a happy new year. Mr Speaker: I refer to my earlier ruling in respect of the hon. Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Andy Burnham (Leigh) (Lab): On a point of order, Kirkintilloch East, which was that the Chair is not Mr Speaker. When it comes to accuracy, the Deputy responsible for adjudicating upon factual accuracy. The Prime Minister appears not to have had a particularly shadow Home Secretary has put the position very clearly good outing this afternoon. He said during the course on the record, and I am sure that the House of Commons of questions that I privatised an NHS hospital when Library will be grateful to her. Secretary of State for Health. That is not a point of debate; it is a point of sheer inaccuracy. The contract for Hinchingbrooke hospital was signed under the coalition, Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): On a point of order, and when the previous Government left office there was Mr Speaker. In the last day news has emerged of a still an NHS bidder in the competition. Do you not large-scale maritime security operation taking place off believe that the Deputy Prime Minister might have the Scottish coast. It is doing so in circumstances in inadvertently misled the House and that he should which the UK Ministry of Defence is unable to deploy return right now to correct the record? any maritime patrol aircraft and has had to depend on MPA provided by the United States of America, Canada Mr Speaker: Well, I believe that the right hon. Gentleman and France. Given the seriousness of the situation, have is his own best advocate, and he has put the position on you been advised by the Ministry of Defence that it the record with crystal clarity. If a Minister feels that in intends to make a statement to the House so that we, as the circumstances it would be prudent or courteous to parliamentarians, can be informed of the situation? return to the Chamber now or at some other opportunity to correct the record, it is open to that Minister to do so. Mr Speaker: The short answer is that I have not been We will leave it there. so advised. I have received no indication that a Minister intends to make a statement in the way the hon. Gentleman Several hon. Members rose— would like and is advocating. However, he has made his point with force and alacrity, and knowing him as I do, Mr Speaker: Order. I am saving the hon. Gentleman I rather feel that if he considers that he has a good up. It would be a pity to waste him too early in the point, he is unlikely to let it go, and it is even conceivable proceedings. that at appropriate points he might repeat it. 877 10 DECEMBER 2014 Resettlement of Vulnerable 878 Syrian Refugees Resettlement of Vulnerable we consider under our normal rules. Since the crisis Syrian Refugees began in 2011, we have granted asylum or other forms of leave to more than 3,400 Syrian nationals. Resettlement can make a real difference to the lives of 12.39 pm refugees who can be supported effectively only outside the region. I am delighted to see those arriving under Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) the scheme settling into their new homes and receiving (Lab) (Urgent Question): To ask the Home Secretary to the care that they need, but we must not lose sight of the make a statement about the resettlement of vulnerable millions of Syrians who remain in the region. Our Syria refugees. primary focus was and still is the provision of humanitarian assistance and aid to displaced people both within Syria The Minister for Security and Immigration (James and in its neighbouring countries. Continuing our efforts Brokenshire): The whole House shares deep concern to help them through aid must remain our highest about the continuing situation in Syria, the suffering priority. and hardship it is causing for millions of refugees, and the enormous strain it is placing on the region. With 3.2 million people displaced into Syria’s neighbouring Yvette Cooper: The British Government have, rightly, countries and millions more in need within Syria itself, committed £700 million to help those affected by the this Government believe it is right to focus efforts on Syrian conflict, and the UK’s largest ever humanitarian substantial aid to help the large numbers of people who crisis response reflects the values of the British people. I remain. This is a crisis of international proportions. applaud the Government’s efforts, but the scale of the Alleviating the suffering and seeking an end to the response is also a reflection of the horrific nature of this conflict are the best ways to ensure that the UK’s help war. Ten million people need help and thousands are has the greatest impact for the majority of Syrian displaced every day. This is a war seemingly without end refugees and their host countries. Ending the war, defeating and with no limits to its inhumanity. extremism and ending the humanitarian crisis require More than 3.2 million Syrians have become refugees both military pressure and a political settlement that in the surrounding region—in Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan replaces the Assad regime with a Government who can and Iraq. Those countries are providing an immense represent all Syrians. amount of support and shelter. Everyone agrees that The UK has committed £700 million in response to the vast majority of people affected want to go home the humanitarian crisis. This significant contribution and should stay in the region. Yesterday, however, the makes us the second largest bilateral donor after the United Nations asked at a conference in Geneva for United States. The UK’s support is helping hundreds of countries across the globe to increase support for its thousands of refugees across the region to access vital limited programme that helps the most vulnerable refugees food, water, medical care and essential supplies that are who struggle to survive or cope in the region: orphaned so desperately needed. UK aid has provided water for children, women who have been sexually abused, victims up to 1.5 million people per month and supported over of torture and those needing treatment or support. 600,000 medical consultations. Last year, we funded What did Britain do when asked for more help yesterday? 5.2 million monthly food rations. Nothing. Why? Compared with aid, resettlement can only ever help a This is the worst refugee crisis since the second world minority. We do, however, recognise that there are some war. It took weeks of pressure from the House before particularly vulnerable people who cannot be supported the Home Secretary set up the vulnerable persons relocation effectively in the region, which was why earlier this year scheme in January. Even then, she still refused to be we launched the Syrian vulnerable persons relocation part of the United Nations programme. She did say that scheme to provide sanctuary for those displaced Syrians she would help several hundred people, but a year later who are most at risk. The VPR scheme is the first only 90 of those vulnerable refugees have been helped. resettlement programme run by the UK to target support That is not good enough. for refugees specifically on the basis of their vulnerability. It is prioritising women and children at risk, people in As part of the UN programme, Finland has provided need of medical care, and the survivors of torture and 500 places, Ireland 310 places, Norway 1,000 places, violence. France 500 places—as well as further humanitarian visas—Switzerland 500 places and Sweden 1,200 places. It is right that our resettlement efforts focus on the Other countries, including Germany and Austria, have most vulnerable refugees, rather than our operating any chosen to offer thousands of places each. The UN form of crude quota system. Arrivals under the scheme scheme is flexible. It is not a quota. It is not about every so far have included a number of children and adults refugee, but about each country doing its bit and what it with very severe medical needs who could not access the can alongside others. treatment they needed in the region. The Government have committed to helping several hundred people over I have three questions for the Government. First, will three years, and that is exactly what we are doing. they accept that their parallel programme is not working Between March and September, 90 people were granted and sign up to the United Nations programme instead? humanitarian protection in the UK under the scheme. Secondly, will they take refugees out of the net migration We continue to work closely with the United Nations target immediately? The Government are under pressure High Commissioner for Refugees to identify the most over immigration, where stronger controls are needed, vulnerable cases displaced by the conflict in Syria and but asylum is different from immigration. They must to relocate them to the UK. This is, of course, in not allow the debate about immigration to cloud their addition to the many other Syrian asylum claims that conscience over helping refugees. 879 Resettlement of Vulnerable 10 DECEMBER 2014 Resettlement of Vulnerable 880 Syrian Refugees Syrian Refugees Thirdly, will the Government now agree to do more to support millions of people in the region directly and to help? Will they rapidly accelerate the programme to immediately, and the asylum that is being provided to meet the promises made in January and also convene an Syrians fleeing persecution through the vulnerable persons urgent meeting with local councils across the country? relocation scheme, this country should be proud of the Kingston-upon-Thames has agreed to help 50 Syrian role it is playing in providing help and assistance to refugees and other councils have said they could do those most in need. This is an ongoing crisis and more if they got the right support from the Government. tragedy, which is why we are providing direct assistance Will the Minister convene a meeting to ask local councils and aid, and we would certainly encourage others to do how many vulnerable refugees in total we can offer to so. Focusing on humanitarian assistance and on bringing support? an end to the conflict will provide the most direct help. When we raised the issue a year ago, the Home Secretary sent a Minister to say no. I hope that the Alistair Burt (North East Bedfordshire) (Con): I think Government will not do the same again. The violence of that we should deal with this question in context. I have the Syrian conflict is unimaginable for us sitting here. visited Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon and Turkey and seen the Once, we were proud as a country to offer safe haven—from immense work that the British Government are doing in the Kindertransport to those helped from the Rwandan looking after refugees. The Minister is right to be proud genocide. It would be shameful, but also against our of it, and the right hon. Member for Normanton, history and our values as a country, if we were to turn Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper) was right to our backs when asked for more help now. I urge Ministers mention it. In the context of the extraordinary efforts to think again. that the United Kingdom is making, it is not correct—it is rather unfair—to suggest that any part of our support James Brokenshire: The shadow Home Secretary is can be termed “shameful”. Admitting people through right to underline the significance of the issues faced in the vulnerable persons relocation scheme is the right Syria and of the millions of people displaced by that thing to do. Will the Minister confirm that it has no horrific conflict. As I said, it is right that we focus our quota and that it can be extended, as it is a matter of efforts on seeking to bring an end to the conflict as well finding the right people who can most benefit? It would as on providing direct assistance in the most effective always be nice to find a reason to take in more people, way to those who have been affected and displaced. but if we set this scheme in the context of the rest of That is precisely what the Government are doing and work that the United Kingdom is doing, it is clear that the UK can be proud of our record in seeking to our contribution, which is over and above that of many provide that direct assistance to those most in need as a of the countries mentioned by the right hon. Lady as consequence of the conflict. taking in more people, means that we can be proud of The right hon. Lady suggested that the vulnerable what we are doing. persons relocation scheme was in some way not working and not fulfilling its intentions, but I entirely reject that. James Brokenshire: I thank my right hon. Friend for The VPR scheme is already providing direct help for his comments, for the work that he has done in the people fleeing persecution and for those most in need of region and for his continuing focus on these issues. He is help, medical or otherwise. I congratulate the local absolutely right that there is no quota. We said that the authorities that are supporting the scheme and providing vulnerable persons relocation scheme will provide assistance such direct assistance. To reflect one of her other points, to several hundred people over a three-year period, and I would certainly encourage more local authorities to that is precisely what is happening—the scheme remains come on board and be part of the scheme to ensure that on track to deliver that. I underline the point about the those arriving in this country are able to receive the work of a number of countries in region to solve this support and assistance that they need to be able to settle humanitarian crisis. I pay tribute to their work and to well and effectively in the UK. the direct role that the UK is playing in assisting them. The right hon. Lady made a point that was not Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): It is a sad irony that worthy of our proceedings when she suggested that our the Home Office published figures today showing that decisions are in some way being clouded by a focus on 11,000 foreign national criminals are still in our country, net migration figures. That is absolutely not the case. at a cost to the taxpayer of £250 million, yet under this Our country can be proud of the work that we are doing scheme we have allowed in fewer than 100 people. We in providing this direct assistance under the vulnerable need to do much more to enable such people to come persons relocation scheme which, as I said, has provided here. Has the Minister spoken to the European Union’s asylum to 3,400 people from Syria who have been Migration Commissioner about the difficulties faced by fleeing the conflict. I therefore entirely reject her assertion. Greece and Italy due to the large number of Syrian The right hon. Lady highlighted the need to ensure refugees making their way into the EU? What support that support is provided to children and women in need. are we giving those countries to help those people Through our work via the Department for International arriving in the EU, rather than those who manage to get Development and our aid programmes, the UK has to Calais? allocated £82 million to provide protection, trauma care and education for children affected by the crisis in Syria James Brokenshire: The Government maintain and the wider region, recognising their vulnerability and that because of the number of people involved, the the need to ensure that assistance is provided directly. most effective way to provide the most support is in The right hon. Lady referred to the contribution of region via humanitarian assistance. The right hon. several countries in seeking to take in refugees from Gentleman asks about our discussions with EU partners Syria. Each country provides assistance in its own different and countries that may experience these flows of people manner. Given the £700 million that the UK is providing through southern European borders. The week before 881 Resettlement of Vulnerable 10 DECEMBER 2014 Resettlement of Vulnerable 882 Syrian Refugees Syrian Refugees [James Brokenshire] Mrs Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con): I congratulate the Minister on his approach to the last, I attended a conference in Rome with European problem because he reflects the Government’s sympathy Ministers and Ministers from several African countries. and concern for the plight of the Syrian refugees. Small Through the Khartoum process, which is about such organisations in this country such as the Lady Fatemah linking and joining up, we are taking a number of steps Charitable Trust, which is based in my constituency, do to deal directly with some of the issues that he highlights. great work in providing food assistance and humanitarian aid in places such as Iraq and Lebanon, as many Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD): When refugees do not wish to go far from home and want to my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary made her be helped directly wherever they have landed. Will the statement earlier this year, I welcomed it, perhaps more Minister encourage more organisations to carry out generously than some in the House. However, that has such work? resulted in a far higher degree of disappointment on my part about the implementation of the scheme which, James Brokenshire: I am grateful to my right hon. after all, is intended to try to deal with those who have Friend for highlighting the incredible work of so many suffered the most as a result of events in Syria. We can charities and non-governmental organisations. I pay be proud of what are spending and of what we are tribute to the work of the organisation in her constituency. doing in general, but surely that should not exclude the We should remember the incredible risks that so many possibility of our doing something particular for those people take to provide such help and assistance. It is who have suffered most. I regret to say that I hope we important to underline that, as well as to recognise their are not allowing the shadow of Mr Farage to obscure supportive work with DFID and other partners. our humanitarian responsibilities. Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): We know James Brokenshire: No. When the vulnerable persons that the Minister has the scheme that he has outlined—it relocation scheme was launched, we were very clear is the subject of this Urgent Question—and that Jordan, about its nature and intent: to help, over the course of Lebanon and Turkey are doing an enormous amount to the next three years, several hundred of those people help in the refugee crisis, but what more can the Government most in need. The scheme was put in place very quickly do to put pressure on other Governments in the region, and a steady number of people have been coming such as the Gulf states, to open their doors to more through month on month. Through the scheme, we are refugees from Syria? able to provide care, housing and assistance locally to ensure that people’s specific needs, including the significant health needs that many have, are adequately and properly James Brokenshire: I understand from the Under- met. The scheme is performing and doing the job that it Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth needs to do. Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood), that that matter is being raised at international bodies and in international discussions. Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): The right hon. Gentleman is right to emphasise the Ernest Bevin once described a political statement as work done by countries such as Jordan and others. We “clitch, clitch, clitch”, and that—clichés—is what we are providing more than £300 million in aid assistance have had from the Minister today. It is just rubbish to outside Syria to some of the countries on which the say that we must concentrate on bringing an end to the displacement of people is most directly having an impact. conflict, because there is nothing whatever that we can do to bring this ghastly conflict to an end. We are talking about simply the worst humanitarian disaster Sarah Teather (Brent Central) (LD): I have visited on this planet—and that is saying a lot, considering both Lebanon and Jordan to see projects supporting other such disasters. While I do not in any way deride or Syrian refugees, as outlined in my entry in the Register dismiss the financial aid that is being applied, it is the of Members’ Financial Interests. In talking about numbers, human beings whom we ought to be doing something it is worth noting—on a day when the Prime Minister is about. The Home Office is failing in that, and it is about in Turkey—that Turkey has received more Syrians fleeing time that it had a heart. the war in the past three days than the number resident in the whole of Europe altogether. Will the Minister James Brokenshire: I am grateful to the right hon. consider expanding not just the vulnerable persons Gentleman for highlighting the scale and extent of the relocation scheme, for which many colleagues have argued, problem, but I am sorry that he has sought to downplay but other safe routes to travel? For example, family the significant contribution that the Government are reunification, which Switzerland has done, would be making to help millions of people who have been affected cheaper to administer and would alleviate significant by this appalling conflict. It remains absolutely right suffering. that we seek to end the war and to defeat extremism, as well as ending the humanitarian crisis, and that is James Brokenshire: People subject to the vulnerable why we must also focus on the political process. Dialogue persons relocation scheme are also eligible for family remains active between the United Nations and reunion under our normal rules. The hon. Lady mentioned the international community, among supporters of Turkey and other countries. Again, it is important to the opposition and among Syrians themselves. This underline that our support has reached hundreds of Government and this country can be proud of what we thousands of people across all 14 governorates of Syria, are doing through this assistance and our political as well as in Jordan, Lebanon, Turkey, Iraq and Egypt. focus—and, yes, through the vulnerable persons relocation She is absolutely right to emphasise the impact on other scheme in providing asylum. countries. 883 Resettlement of Vulnerable 10 DECEMBER 2014 Resettlement of Vulnerable 884 Syrian Refugees Syrian Refugees Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab): Desperate in Amman, play an important part in improving the Syrians were heavily over-represented among the 500 people lives of the young Syrian refugees who are struggling in a boat that sank in the autumn in the eastern against such odds? Mediterranean, from which there were only 11 survivors. We now know that 3,419 refugees have died in the James Brokenshire: I agree with my right hon. Friend, Mediterranean this year. Does that not underpin the and I pay tribute to the project he mentions. Important critical importance of not reducing sea rescue efforts facilities are provided through our aid and assistance, in the Mediterranean, while we work to find solutions and we are funding partners to provide education supply to the refugee crisis that has engulfed so much of the kits in refugee camps in Jordan. That supports the world? very work he identifies, including the supply of pencils, exercise books and other facilities. In addition, the James Brokenshire: As the hon. Lady will be aware, Government have committed to providing textbooks to Operation Triton is being conducted by Frontex along benefit at least 300,000 Syrian and Lebanese children the borders of the southern European Mediterranean attending Lebanese public schools, showing a real focus countries. It is important to underscore that people are on children. not in any way being left to drown as a consequence of the changes endorsed by all EU member states. I draw Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab): The Minister her attention to the fact that, on 29 November, a stated that there are no quotas for the number of commercial ship under Royal Navy command picked refugees we are taking, but he does not seem, from up 145 Syrian migrants in the Mediterranean and landed his answers, to be very proactive in trying to obtain them in Sicily. offers of assistance within the United Kingdom. May I suggest that he arranges a summit with the devolved Administrations and local government in England to Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con): May I find out how many authorities are prepared to make commend my hon. Friend for the UK’s significant offers of assistance so that the UK can increase the financial contribution to the ongoing humanitarian number of refugees we take, as many of my constituents crisis in Syria and the British people for their generosity? are demanding? Does he share my pride—not the shame that the Labour party is talking about—that the UK is the second James Brokenshire: I know that many local authorities largest donor in the world in this instance? are actively assisting the work of the vulnerable persons relocation scheme—I commend them for doing so—and James Brokenshire: My hon. Friend makes a very others are offering help and support. I absolutely endorse important point, which we need to underscore and the need for more local authorities to come forward recognise. As a country, we should be proud of the to do so. On her suggestion about the devolved extent and scale of the assistance that the UK is providing Administrations, I will certainly consider what further in-region to those most in need of help. We can stand steps we could take to underline the importance of their tall in respect of that contribution. contribution, as well as the help that local authorities can give. Pamela Nash (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): In his earlier responses, the Minister made it very clear that political Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) pressure to reduce net migration has had no impact on (Con): Having visited a refugee camp on the Syria-Turkey the number of refugees this country is accepting. However, border earlier this year, I am all too aware of the he must accept that such a conclusion is inevitable, conflict’s impact, especially on children. Will my hon. given that refugees are included in the net migration Friend join me in thanking the Turks for all they are figures. Why are refugees included in the net migration doing to provide support? Does he agree that the best figures, and will the Home Office now reconsider that way to resolve the problem is to find a way to end the matter to avoid such accusations in future? war, however difficult that may be? Will he remain committed to providing whatever support is needed both at home and abroad? James Brokenshire: I again entirely reject any assertion that the manner in which net migration statistics are James Brokenshire: My hon. Friend has experience of calculated has any bearing or influence at all on this travelling to see the very direct impact of the situation country’s international obligations on humanitarian on the ground, and I commend him and other Members assistance. Indeed, we should be proud of the work that from across the House for their work and the real focus this country does in providing humanitarian aid, assistance and attention that they have given to this very serious and asylum to those in need. Net migration statistics issue. He is right to identify Turkey’s contribution. The are calculated on the same basis as in many other Prime Minister is in Turkey at the moment, and it is countries, and they are drawn up in that manner for use important to work with our international partners to in international comparisons. seek to resolve this appalling crisis.

Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con): Any proposals Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): May for resettlement must be set in the context of the scale of I point out to the Minister that none of us is criticising the problem. Some 1.4 million Syrian refugees are currently the generosity of the population or of our constituents? resident in Jordan, many of whom are children of Britain is doing pretty well on many measures. What the school age. Does the Minister agree that activities such rest of the world are criticising is the lack of leadership as those of the Manchester-based NGO Syrian Women and the drift. Here is a Prime Minister—in Turkey—who Across Borders, which is educating young Syrian refugees is regarded by so many allies as a modern-day Neville 885 Resettlement of Vulnerable 10 DECEMBER 2014 Resettlement of Vulnerable 886 Syrian Refugees Syrian Refugees [Mr Barry Sheerman] provide support under the vulnerable persons relocation scheme to several hundred of those most in need of Chamberlain. Where is the determination to sort out assistance, and we are providing quarterly updates on this conflict, to face up to the humanitarian crisis and that work. The scheme is therefore transparent and to get allies to work with us, across Governments, to do clear, and we are obviously continuing our discussions something about it? with local authorities and others to see what further assistance they can provide. I will seek to take that James Brokenshire: The Prime Minister and the further forward following this session. Government have shown clear leadership at the UN and elsewhere, and by working bilaterally with other Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): The Minister Governments. Indeed, the fact that we have committed is right to be proud of the aid that Britain is giving in £700 million, the biggest aid project this country has the region, and to give asylum to Syrian refugees who ever seen, shows very direct leadership. We are not just can make it over here. However, as he knows from our talking about it, but actually doing something about it. exchanges at the Home Affairs Committee, I believe On that basis, we are showing leadership, and our that the efforts to tackle the problems of the most country can be proud that we are doing so. vulnerable refugees who cannot easily get here are simply tokenistic and fall far short of what Members of all Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con): Along with my right parties agreed when the system was set up. It is far less hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd West (Mr Jones) than other countries are doing. Will the Minister reflect and my friend the hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr Love), on that? I know that he and the Home Secretary were I returned from Jordan last week. We visited Syrian careful not to give any quotas or numbers, but will refugees in Zaatari and saw the institution that my right he at least try to edge the numbers upwards to deliver hon. Friend referred to. May I say gently to my hon. what this country would like to see and to help people Friend the Minister that it is a particular pity that the in need? enormous amount of aid that the United Kingdom is giving is being overshadowed by the frankly derisory numbers of refugees that we are taking relative to the James Brokenshire: My hon. Friend says that the size of the problem? In addition, despite all the assistance vulnerable persons relocation scheme is in some way going to particular NGOs and the UN in Jordan, the not meeting what he sees as the intent behind it, but Jordanian Government’s budget is not receiving the when the scheme was launched we were clear that it help that it desperately needs given that the Jordanian would assist several hundred vulnerable Syrians over public services are picking up much of the responsibility. the course of three years, and it is doing that and remains absolutely on course to achieve it. Again, I highlight the fact that we are providing assistance to James Brokenshire: The Under-Secretary of State for some of the most vulnerable people through our direct Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my hon. Friend aid assistance to individual countries. That aid contribution the Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood), who and the vulnerable persons relocation scheme mean that is sitting alongside me, will be visiting Amman next this country can be proud of what it is doing. week, and I am sure that he has heard clearly the points that my hon. Friend the Member for Reigate (Crispin Blunt) makes and will raise them with his opposite Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): The number of people numbers and colleagues in the Jordanian Government. that this country has admitted this year under the However, this country can be proud of the overall vulnerable persons relocation scheme has been, in January, contribution that is being made. Each country is providing one; in February, none; in March, none; in April, one; assistance directly, and we are doing so through significant in May, one; and in June, four. The Minister looks aid, through the vulnerable persons relocation scheme puzzled, but those figures are from a parliamentary and by providing asylum to those who need it. answer that he supplied to me, and they show the priority that he gives the matter. Will he confirm that Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) neither he nor the Home Secretary has ever met the (SNP): When I asked about this issue during Scotland Refugee Council to discuss those shameful figures? Will Office questions on 18 December last year, Germany he please undertake to do that, and to do better from was taking about 80% of the Syrian refugees coming to now forward? the EU and Amnesty International said that the amount of help coming from the UK should cause heads to James Brokenshire: The vulnerable persons relocation hang in shame. By June, reports were that only 24 Syrians scheme was launched in February and was got up and had been relocated to the UK. The SNP Scottish running within the first two months, which was rapid Government want to help and have been in touch with given the significant needs of so many of the people the UK Government. Can the Minister update us on involved. Many have medical needs and have suffered those talks? How many refugees can we hope to welcome huge trauma, and the arrangements have been implemented to Scotland and give a “Failte gu Alba” to before too appropriately to ensure that we provide them with the long? help that they need when they arrive. They do not simply arrive here and then wait for assistance; there James Brokenshire: I note that the hon. Gentleman is wrap-around care when they arrive in the UK. highlights one individual country within the EU, but [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman is hectoring from each country provides a balance of assistance, whether his place, but the scheme is working and is providing by accepting people through various schemes or by direct assistance. I am sorry that he does not recognise providing monetary assistance. Each country does so that, because there are people receiving direct help. I am in its own appropriate way. We have said that we will sorry that he appears to be blind to that. 887 Resettlement of Vulnerable 10 DECEMBER 2014 Resettlement of Vulnerable 888 Syrian Refugees Syrian Refugees Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): My hon. Friend and the vulnerable persons relocation scheme, but we is right to point out that the quality and extent of continue to have discussions with the UNHCR, which British aid is second only to that of the United States. identifies individuals who come through that scheme, Britain’s historic role and ties in the region put a greater and we will always reflect on what further information onus on us to play our full part in the resettlement of we can provide and how we can make the scheme work refugees. What work are the Government doing to as effectively as possible. encourage more local authorities to sign up to the vulnerable persons relocation scheme? Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): My constituent, Razan Alsous, fled Syria two years ago and thanks to a James Brokenshire: I am grateful to my hon. Friend new enterprise allowance now runs an award-winning for allowing me to underline again the significant Yorkshire halloumi cheese-making factory in Linthwaite. contribution that many local authorities are making by Will the Minister join me in congratulating Razan and allowing people to be located in their area through the other Syrian refugees who are making such a positive scheme and ensuring that essential help and assistance contribution to our communities? is provided. I certainly encourage more local authorities to come forward, as I have said in response to a number James Brokenshire: I am pleased to congratulate Razan of questions, and I encourage hon. Members of all and all those who are making a new life in the UK, parties to talk to their local authorities in support of contributing to and enriching our communities. The what the Government are doing so that we can ensure vulnerable persons relocation scheme is precisely to that more areas make that assistance available. provide such assistance and enable people to escape the conflict and settle into the relevant communities, and Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): I very that is the reason for our measured approach. much agree with my hon. Friend that the Prime Minister is showing real leadership in delivering humanitarian Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) and local support to refugees in Syria. Will he join me in (Lab): Britain has a proud history of providing refuge praising the work of Cornish-based ShelterBox, which and asylum, but I share the concerns of a number of is doing phenomenal work in Syria right now, ranging hon. Members about how that issue has been confused from health care to educating children, with the support with a wider debate on immigration, including data of the Department for International Development and collection. I am still unclear—perhaps the Minister can voluntary donations? help me—why we have set up a parallel programme to that of the United Nations, and about the criteria used James Brokenshire: I am pleased to offer my support for relocation. For example, will families be relocated for, and commend the work of, ShelterBox and a number close to other Syrians or family members? of other charities that are providing direct support and help to people in Syria and other areas affected by James Brokenshire: The scheme operates in close conflict. It is also important to underline the contribution conjunction with the UN High Commissioner for Refugees. that the British public make through their huge generosity We judged it best to contribute through a complementary to so many charities and aid organisations. As a country, scheme, working in partnership with the UNHCR and we can be proud not simply of the Government’s work focusing exclusively on the most vulnerable cases, in investing aid money but of the public’s huge contribution particularly women and children at risk, those in need and the funding that they are providing to give direct of medical assistance, and survivors of torture and assistance. violence. As I said, this is the first scheme of its kind in the UK with that direct focus. The UNHCR will make Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab): The Minister recommendations about those who are appropriate and has used the word “proud” eight times so far today. suitable for the scheme, and through that complementary Many of my constituents are proud of the immense work we are actively supporting its efforts. courage of the Syrian and Assyrian Christian communities that are currently facing a fearful and frozen future in a Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): I congratulate part of the world where they have lived for centuries the right hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract and but where they may simply not be able to survive Castleford (Yvette Cooper) on securing this urgent question, much longer. Many of my constituents have offered and the Minister on the excellent way he is responding. accommodation—they have offered homes and bedrooms, I disagree with the Opposition, however, because surely and they have offered succour to those people. Will the the Prime Minister has shown great leadership not only Minister agree to collate the information about such on Syria but on overseas aid. We are the second highest offers and feed it in to the UNHCR, which will be contributor of aid, but I think we have been concentrating responsible for the first year’s cost of any resettlement, too much on the money. Will the Minister say what that to see whether the British people can show their pride in money is doing for people on the ground? a courageous Christian community in the same way that he has shown his pride? Winter is coming fast to James Brokenshire: My hon. Friend makes a powerful the region, and we have very little time. and important point about the way that aid money provides assistance to hundreds of thousands of people. James Brokenshire: I recognise the hon. Gentleman’s That money means food, water and shelter, and I have points. There are a number of persecuted communities, already mentioned the books that are being provided and he rightly highlights the situation in Iraq. I also and other assistance to ensure that children receive an recognise, from the letters that I see, the number of education despite their displacement from within Syria. individuals who want to contribute. The most effective The money is providing direct, practical, real-life assistance way for them to do that is through their local authorities and we should underline work that has been done to 889 Resettlement of Vulnerable 10 DECEMBER 2014 Resettlement of Vulnerable 890 Syrian Refugees Syrian Refugees [James Brokenshire] visited Jordan recently and saw for myself the tremendous work that has been done using British aid funds to feed ensure that we meet aid commitments, as well as the and shelter massive numbers of refugees. We also visited leadership being shown. As my hon. Friend said, I think a British Syrian charity to see its work in looking after the Prime Minister has shown leadership not only in women and children, and particularly the rehabilitation Syria but on many other things as well. needs of those who directly and abruptly became victims of the conflict in Syria. Many of those people would be Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): Rochdale has more appropriate and suitable for the vulnerable persons asylum seekers than the entire south-east of England. scheme, and I plead with the Minister to look carefully Cardiff has 900, Newport 400, but the Minister’s at the need in countries such as Jordan because the constituency has 33. The Home Secretary’s constituency numbers are huge. has one—an increase on last year. Would it be far easier to rescue more people from that hell if the burden that asylum seekers place on local authority services was James Brokenshire: The hon. Gentleman rightly spread fairly? What will the Minister do to stand tall highlights the scale and impact of what is happening in and proud in his constituency and prepare it to take a that region, and that is why we remain in close contact fair share of asylum seekers? with the Government of Jordan and are providing assistance. He is right to say that those who have been James Brokenshire: We work regionally with local traumatised may be appropriate for the vulnerable persons authorities and I have had a number of meetings to see relocation scheme, and we are working with the UNHCR how the Home Office can work towards and assist a to ensure that those who come to the UK have their further spread of those in receipt of asylum across the needs identified. We work closely with them so that regions. I welcome what the hon. Gentleman said about once they arrive they can receive direct medical or other ensuring that more local authorities receive asylum assistance from the word go. That is why the scheme applicants, and I have been taking forward discussions is—rightly, I think—being undertaken in that way, and in a number of areas to ensure that new local authorities, I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for highlighting his and others in the region, play their part in providing direct experience. asylum support. Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): A substantial Co-op): The Minister said earlier that the withdrawal of number of my constituents have recently contacted me the wider search and rescue scheme in the Mediterranean about this issue because they care and see its importance. had not led to more people drowning. He cannot possibly They thought that the debate earlier this year about know that, however, because the new Operation Triton whether we should resettle people or act in the area had only operates close to the Italian coast. Given evidence been resolved when the Home Secretary said that we that people are still dying in their hundreds and thousands would seek to take in several hundreds of refugees in the Mediterranean, and that the Italian navy is under this scheme over three years. Currently, however, putting about one third of its boats at the service of the the numbers involved are tiny, and I have heard nothing new rescue operation, should the UK and the rest of the from the Minister about why those numbers are so EU be thinking about a wider search and rescue operation small or what plans he has to honour that commitment in the Mediterranean? How many people is the UK to take in several hundreds of refugees? assisting Italy with in Operation Triton? James Brokenshire: I recognise the care and concern over this situation felt by many people across the country, James Brokenshire: The decision taken on Mare Nostrum and that is testament to the nature of this country and was endorsed by all EU member states because it was the values we hold. The Government were clear that the felt that the programme was leading to more people scheme would provide assistance to several hundred putting themselves at risk, and—sadly—more people people over three years, as the hon. Lady rightly highlighted, dying. More than 3,000 people have died crossing the and we are doing that. We remain firmly on course to Mediterranean already this year compared with 700 in seek to meet that objective and aim, and we will provide the previous year. The UK is not part of Frontex, which quarterly updates on our progress. We have provided is the EU body that leads the current work on a pan-EU the figures to September and further updates will follow. basis, but we are nevertheless providing two debriefers She will see that we are meeting our commitments and and a nationality expert to support the operation, and providing the help that is needed. considering what other resources we can provide. On search and rescue, if a vessel is in distress, another vessel Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op): Along in the vicinity will clearly seek to come to its aid. with the right hon. Member for Clwyd West (Mr Jones) Indeed, as I have already highlighted, a Royal Navy and the hon. Member for Reigate (Crispin Blunt), I commanded vessel did precisely that in recent weeks. 891 10 DECEMBER 2014 Preparing Young People for Work 892

Preparing Young People for Work young people. The challenge before us is how to ensure that every young person in every part of the country is given access to them. 1.30 pm I have consistently heard calls from both employers and schools and colleges to help them navigate this The Secretary of State for Education (Nicky Morgan): complex landscape and to spread the good practice that With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a is happening in some parts of the country to all. Today statement about the next phase of our plan for education— I am answering those calls. I am pleased to tell the preparing young people for the world of work. House that Christine Hodgson, chair of Capgemini Ensuring that young people leave school or college UK and someone with a strong track record of developing prepared for life in modern Britain is a central tenet of young talent, will chair a new careers and enterprise the Government’s plan for education, and a vital part company for schools. This will transform the provision of our long-term economic plan for Britain. It is the of careers education and advice for young people and students of today who will be the work force of tomorrow inspire them to take control of and shape their own and on whom the future success of our economy—and futures. everything that flows from that—will depend. That is The company will support much greater engagement why our plan will ensure that every young person learns between employers on one hand and schools and colleges the knowledge, skills and values they need to be able to on the other. It will ensure that young people get the leave school or college ready to fulfil their potential and inspiration and guidance they need to leave school or succeed in life. college ready to succeed in working life. It will be The Government have done a huge amount to raise employer led, but will work closely with the education standards in our schools. We now have a million more and careers sectors. It will also act as an umbrella pupils in good and outstanding schools—more than organisation to help employers, schools and colleges ever before; 100,000 more six-year-olds are now on and other organisations navigate their way through the track to become confident readers because of our focus existing landscape. It will provide a vehicle to help other on phonics; the number of pupils taking core academic organisations co-ordinate their activities where appropriate. GCSEs is up by 60% since 2009-10 thanks to the EBacc; The company will not itself be a direct delivery and, critically, we now have the most highly qualified organisation, or act in competition with the many existing teaching profession ever, with more graduates from top providers in the market. Instead, it will help schools, universities choosing teaching than ever before. colleges, organisations and employers work together in While helping every child to master the basics is vital, partnership. The company will focus on the offer to I am clear that it is only the start. Schools and colleges young people, initially those aged 12 to 18. It will work have a broader role to play in preparing young people closely with the National Careers Service, which will for adult life. That is why I recently allocated £5 million continue to support adults and young people and help of funding to support new, innovative projects that the company to bring employers, schools and colleges build character, resilience and grit—because as much as together. I want the next generation to be able to solve a quadratic It will be for the new company’s board to set its own equation, I also want them to be able to make a compelling strategy but we envisage that it will do a number of pitch for a job, and to be able to bounce back if things things. It will use relationships with employers—private, do not work out. It is also why today I am setting out an public and third sector—to break down barriers between ambitious new approach to the way we open young schools and colleges on the one hand and employers on people’s eyes to the world of work. the other, and increase the level of employer input into It is widely acknowledged that careers provision in careers, inspiration and enterprise in all schools and schools has long been inadequate. To date, we have colleges. It will do that partly through a network of encouraged schools and colleges to take the lead. We advisers who will broker strong and extensive links at have placed a clear duty on them to provide students local level. It will assist schools and colleges in choosing with access to impartial advice and guidance. But, effective careers and enterprise organisations to partner though we published an inspiration vision statement in with, including considering the use of quality marks. It September 2013 and strengthened the statutory guidance will stimulate more and better activity in areas where to support schools and colleges in making this vision a the current provision is poorest. Last but not least, it reality, it is clear that many schools and colleges need will develop an enterprise passport to incentivise young additional support if we are to ensure every young people to participate in a wide range of extra-curricular person—regardless of background or location—receives activities that boost their appeal to employers, as well as the life-changing advice and inspiration that they need their enterprise skills. to fulfil their potential and succeed in life. That is a view The network of advisers and the enterprise passport supported by a number of respected contributors in this are ideas championed most effectively by my noble area, including OFSTED, the National Careers Council, Friend Lord Young, to whom I should like to pay the Sutton Trust, the Gatsby Foundation and the Education generous tribute for his invaluable work in this area. His Committee, as well as many employers, sector experts, report, “Enterprise for All”, has informed our thinking and schools and colleges themselves. about the way forward. I am also grateful for the Some schools and colleges are doing great things to support of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State ensure that their students access the necessary support, for Business, Innovation and Skills and his officials in but too often provision is patchy. Already busy schools ensuring that our work reflects the needs of employers and teachers do not always have the time to give this the and business and for providing £1.4 million this year to focus they should. Meanwhile, many organisations— ensure that the company makes a strong start. It is also including employers—offer excellent programmes for important to say that this announcement builds on the 893 Preparing Young People for Work10 DECEMBER 2014 Preparing Young People for Work 894

[Nicky Morgan] tremendous job to spread alumni network opportunities to disadvantaged schools; and a vocational education work already under way in this area, such as the common system that spreads opportunity and excellence to those online application portal being developed by my right young people who want to pursue high quality hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister and the Minister apprenticeships. responsible for business and skills. Today’s announcement is perfectly welcome as far as The Government will support the new company with it goes, but, to be frank, even for this Government it is start-up funding in 2015-16, the cost of which will be pretty undercooked. What was the bidding process for met from the £20 million announced by my right hon. the new company receiving £1.6 million of taxpayers’ Friend the Chancellor in last week’s autumn statement. money? What will the company actually do? What are Some £5 million of this will constitute an investment its costs? What is its strategy? How will it stimulate fund to support innovation and stimulate good practice “more and better activity”? What will its relationships across the country. In the longer term, the company will with employers be? This is a piecemeal, scattergun sustain itself. approach. Astonishingly—it is very good see the Business I am confident that the plan I have announced today Secretary in his place—the statement does not even will build on the excellent work that is already going on mention local enterprise partnerships. If we are to have in some parts of the country, but will ensure it is joined-up government on careers advice, I would have replicated in every part of the country. It will herald a thought that at least the Department for Education and step change in the quality of careers inspiration, advice the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and guidance provided to all young people, paying no could talk to each other. regard to ability, interest or background, and it will help In short, like the Secretary of State’s tenure in office, to realise our ambition of ensuring that every child today’s announcement signally fails to rise to the challenge. leaves school or college prepared for life in modern The Secretary of State could have said something strategic Britain. We know that the ultimate success of our about the competitiveness challenge we face. She could long-term economic plan for this country rests on the have highlighted Lord Adonis’s scheme for directors of shoulders of the next generation, and we are backing enterprise, the CBI’s local brokers model or the Gatsby them every step of the way. I commend the statement to Foundation’s 10 benchmarks. Instead, she has retreated the House. to the Tory comfort zone of Lord Young, whom we on the Opposition Benches remember for putting a lot of 1.37 pm young people out of work. In a week when Britain faces a skills crisis and has had to import brickies from Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab): I thank Poland, when the chief inspector of schools has highlighted the Secretary of State for advance notice of this the failure of Government policy in raising standards in statement—on page six of The Sun. As we approach the secondary education, and when a leading head teacher 750th anniversary of the de Montfort Parliament, I has said the Secretary of State is “just not up to the would have expected a little more respect for this institution. job”, this country deserves better than this poorly thought Parliamentary democracy is, after all, a British value. through end-of-term initiative. Education is the handmaiden of a competitive economy, but the Government’s education policy has systematically Nicky Morgan: I think that among all the rhetoric undermined young people’s preparation for the world and playing to his own gallery the shadow Secretary of of work. Secondary work experience placements have State actually welcomed the announcement. He represents been scrapped; practical assessments have been removed; the Labour party. As one of his colleagues said, the clue young apprenticeships have been devalued; and a teacher is in the title: it is all about representing working people. supply crisis looms in the STEM subjects so critical for That is what we on the Government Benches are doing. this country’s future prospects. But it is the dismantling If the shadow Secretary of State wants to see a failure of careers advice that stands among the Government’s to prepare young people for the life of work, he ought greatest crimes. to be thinking about the fact that under the previous As the CBI has said, our careers advice system is “in Labour Government one in three of our young people severe crisis”. The Chairman of the Education Committee, were leaving primary school unable to read and write. who is not in his place, has said that the state of the That is a shocking statistic. careers service We have the lowest number of NEETs since records “should shame the Department for Education”. began. Yesterday saw the announcement of the 2 millionth Sir Michael Wilshaw pointed out on the radio this apprentice. Those of us on the Government Benches morning that want to go further. The Chancellor, in the autumn statement last week, confirmed his support for the “careers education is particularly bad”. employment of younger people through continued national Famously, prisoners get more careers advice than school insurance tax breaks. The shadow Secretary of State pupils under this Government. called for destination measures. He must have missed The Opposition take these warnings seriously. That is the announcement, because we have done that and we why we want to see work experience guaranteed for are going to enhance them. He called for support for every secondary school pupil; a governor responsible careers organisations. That has been done and that is for enterprise and careers education on every governing exactly what this organisation will do. The company body; new destination measures, so that all schools will be an employer-led company. There will be an track pupils into work, apprenticeships and higher advisory board. The Government are backing and setting education; more support for innovative careers education up the company, which has been called for by business charities such as Future First, which is doing such a organisations for many, many years. Some £20 million 895 Preparing Young People for Work10 DECEMBER 2014 Preparing Young People for Work 896 is being put behind this company and we will of course He ought to reflect on the fact that we have seen more let the House know how that money is spent. I mentioned great apprenticeships right across the country. Already the £5 million investment fund. The company will of this week, we have celebrated the 2 millionth apprentice course work with the local enterprise partnerships, which and she is to be congratulated on signing up to it. are critical to supplying both investment in skills and local labour market information. Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con): I warmly welcome The shadow Secretary of State could have said something the statement. For so long, businesses have been calling about his plan for education, but as always he retreated for an antidote to the painfully inadequate careers to his comfort zone. As always, he talked about some of advice, supervised by the previous Labour Government, the problems he saw, but nothing positive about the that spectacularly failed to prepare young people for the hard-working teachers and school leaders up and down world of work. Will the Secretary of State confirm how the country who have willingly taken this on and know the proposals will counter the lack of awareness of the best what is right for their students and the inspiration value of apprenticeships and solid vocational routes? for their future. Today’s announcement is about making sure that schools broker good and deep relationships Nicky Morgan: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. with employers and businesses, and that young people Schools already have a duty to ensure that young people are inspired by all the options open to them in the are advised independently on all the options open to future. All the shadow Secretary of State’s response them. There is no doubt that one of the things we hear showed was the continuing failure of the Opposition’s when we go around the country is the positive nature of education policy, and the fact that he and the Labour apprenticeships, but often young people find out about party have no plan for young people. them through a roundabout route. The company will be working with organisations such as the National Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): Will the Apprenticeship Service, but one of the most powerful Secretary of State ensure that help from employers will things is for employers to go into schools and speak grow, including in particular from the overwhelming about the opportunities available to them. I was at number of tiny employers on the island? Crossrail yesterday talking to one of the apprentices. We hope very much that he, and other apprentices, will Nicky Morgan: I thank my hon. Friend for that go back into schools to talk about their experiences in question. He is absolutely right. One of the issues for the world of work. smaller businesses is that it is difficult to build links with schools—it is often difficult to know who to contact. As Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab): I am the I said in my statement, when schools are busy it is daughter of a skilled manual worker and I went to an difficult for them to know which businesses they should ordinary comprehensive school. When I was growing be contacting. The company we are setting up today up I simply did not understand what jobs existed or will have advisers in all parts of the country to broker how one might progress from entry-level jobs to top those links and to ensure that our young people find out positions. What makes the Secretary of State so confident about all careers, whether they are in big or small that her announcement today will change that, because companies or in the public sector, and apprenticeships it is still a problem for many young people? and going on to further study.

Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): When I heard Nicky Morgan: I thank the hon. Lady for that question, there would be a statement from the Secretary of State and I agree with her that that is one of the issues. The for Education today I thought it might be about the whole point about the body is that it will be employer warnings from Ofsted about low standards in secondary led. I mean “employer” in the widest sense of the word. schools. I thought it might even have been about the It may very well be that young people have never tender opportunity that has appeared on the Department thought about setting up their own company, or that for Education website for the privatisation of children’s they are not aware of the opportunities available to social care. I was therefore very surprised at the actual them in the third sector, the public sector or the private choice. As the statement was on preparing young people sector. The body is needed to inspire young people, and for the world of work, may I tell the Secretary of State to tell them about all the options open to them, the fact what the witnesses to this morning’s Select Committee that often they may go from one career to another and on Education had to say about 16-to-19 apprenticeships? the impact of the subject choices they make at school. I They all agree that her proposals for apprenticeships want young people to be advised early on, when they are nothing short of a train wreck. I urge her to listen to are making GCSE choices and before they get any their calls for greater quality apprenticeships that are further, on their subject choices and on the amazing matched to each individual, and to have a complete careers that are open to them. We saw this week the rethink to get rid of the increase in bureaucracy that she publication of a report that mentions 40 jobs that were is proposing. not available even a few years ago. The jobs landscape is changing all the time. Nicky Morgan: First, the hon. Gentleman’s interpretation of the proposals for children’s social care services is Simon Wright (Norwich South) (LD): I welcome the absolutely wrong. We have absolutely and categorically new careers company, which I hope will help schools to ruled out any form of privatisation in relation to those promote opportunities for young people. Thousands of services. I have no idea where he has got that from. All my constituents have jobs in the public sector. Will the we hear from the Opposition Benches is more negativity Secretary of State inform the House how public sector about the proposals to inspire our young people about employers will be involved in the careers and enterprise all the options open to them. He mentioned apprenticeships. company and its advisory board? 897 Preparing Young People for Work10 DECEMBER 2014 Preparing Young People for Work 898

Nicky Morgan: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely Nicky Morgan: I am glad that the hon. Gentleman right. We want to ensure that the widest possible options has accepted my challenge to be positive, and I think and inspiration are available to all our young people, the tenor of his remarks fulfilled that criterion, so I and we intend that various large public sector organisations welcome them. I intend and hope that the company will will have a role on the advisory board—for example, the be a community interest company, but that will be a NHS, which employs 5 million people, and the armed matter for the new chair, in particular, to take forward. forces, which are a huge source of career opportunities The hon. Gentleman is right, of course, that we need for our young people. better-skilled people, but that is what the former careers service failed absolutely to deliver, which is why we have Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): Given the skills a skills shortage now. We do not have people inspired by shortage highlighted this year, there is clearly a need for the options and careers available. Working with schools, an organisation to enhance careers education in schools. which know their students best, is what the company What does the Secretary of State mean when she says will do. It is right, therefore, that schools have a duty to that in the longer term she envisages this company procure good and excellent careers advice and guidance, sustaining itself? Does that mean a charge to the schools, and this company will play an important part in ensuring to the employers or to both? that all kinds of employers can get into schools and inspire young people for the future. Nicky Morgan: I thank the hon. Gentleman for welcoming the creation of this company. I intend that in Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con): I welcome today’s the longer term employers will see the value of the statement. One of the Government’s flagship policies company and therefore will invest in it. for preparing young people for the world of work is the studio schools initiative, and recently I campaigned successfully for a £3 million studio school on the site of Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): I agreed the Grange school in Warmley, but today South with the Secretary of State when she said: Gloucestershire councillors are voting on whether to “as much as I want the next generation to be able to solve a close the existing Grange school. I fought hard for the quadratic equation, I also want them to be able to make a studio school so that pupils at the Grange could continue compelling pitch for a job”. their education at the new school. Will the Secretary of If we are going to win the global race for excellence, we State meet me to ensure that pupils at the Grange who need top-flight scientists and mathematicians, and a wish to continue their education at the studio school disproportionate number of them are provided by our will be given the opportunity to do so and have the remaining 160 grammar schools, yet under this Government place in the new school they deserve? funding for grammar schools has been cut, meaning that the top-performing grammar school in Lincolnshire Nicky Morgan: My hon. Friend is absolutely right gets £4,000 per pupil per year and the worst-performing that the diversity of schools in our system is fundamental comprehensive gets £7,000 per head per year. We must to the driving up of standards we have seen. As I said in do more to help our excellent schools provide the top-class my statement, for example, more students are taking mathematicians of the future. EBacc subjects, which are leading to higher academic standards, and I am a great supporter of studio schools. Nicky Morgan: I am not sure I agree with the entirety I heard what he said, and I will try to meet him, but if I of my hon. Friend’s question, but I agreed with his final cannot one of my Ministers will do so urgently. point: we must ensure that all our schools are good or outstanding local schools and are encouraging our young Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) people to consider studying science and maths for longer. (Lab): I share the concerns of my hon. Friends about As we have seen, it makes a difference to young people’s the status of the new company. Is it a private company? earnings. The best way to improve social mobility is for It is being set up with public money. Given the Public all our schools to be good or outstanding, and, since Accounts Committee’s report this morning, which suggests 2010, 1 million more pupils are in good or outstanding that public money given to private companies is often schools. not spent well, how will we ensure that public money is held to account, and what specifically will it be doing? Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): The Secretary of State wants people to be positive, and I Nicky Morgan: The hon. Lady got to the nub of the want to be positive, about this initiative. She will know issue at the end of her question—what the company will that I co-chair the Skills Commission, which reported actually be doing on the ground. When Labour has last week on the relevant skills for the changing nature nothing else to say about a proposal, it obsesses about of work. I hope she had a chance to look at the report. process. I have already mentioned that the company will If we are to be positive, we have to start with a partnership, be a community interest company, and it will of course but over the past four and a half years, she and the explain to Parliament what it has done with the public Government have destroyed the old fabric of careers money it receives. It will be doing a variety of different advice in our schools. That has to be rebuilt. I have things, but one thing I do not want it to do is to quash nothing against the new company, but I would like to the good practice already out there. There are already know more about it: is it third sector, a company limited many excellent schemes involving the brightest and best by guarantee, a private company? Whatever it is, all of schools linking to employers. We want to build on that us who care about the future of our young people want and spread it across the country, including to schools in it to succeed. We will work with her, but only on the her constituency. I think the young people in her realistic basis of what we need into the 21st century. constituency will welcome these opportunities. 899 Preparing Young People for Work10 DECEMBER 2014 Preparing Young People for Work 900

Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con): I practice in some parts of the country, but we do not see congratulate my right hon. Friend on her announcement; it everywhere. I think that every child in this country is it is a great step forward. Does she agree that we need to entitled to be inspired about their future. match the skills that schools teach to those that employers require? In that respect, would she encourage employers, Pamela Nash (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): I agree that LEPs and local authorities to carry out accurate skills every young person in this country deserves to be inspired audits so that schools know what those skills are? about their future, and I am happy to hear the Secretary of State saying that and expressing her opinions on Nicky Morgan: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. giving good quality careers advice. Unfortunately, that We must ensure that our young people have the skills to does not match with the recent record of this Government. prepare them for life in modern Britain, which means, While I welcome any investment in careers advice, for most of them, getting jobs and knowing what jobs £20 million is equivalent to around only £3 a head for are out there. He is right to say that skills audits are every young person. Does she really think that this will critical, which is where the LEPs will come in, and that fix the problems caused by this Government? it is a partnership between different organisations, including local authorities, LEPs and employers. Nicky Morgan: In going around talking to organisations Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): Unfortunately, mistakes and schools across the country, I have found that it is the Government made early in this Parliament have left not so much a matter of financial issues as of the lack work experience and careers information, advice and of contacts. That is what the company is all about— guidance in the worst state it has been in during my brokering links between employers and businesses and lifetime. I welcome the Secretary of State’s statement schools. Yes, I am absolutely confident that this will and her personal commitment to putting this right, but make a difference. It is part of the careers landscape the devil will be in the detail. Are there any guarantees and I welcome the hon. Lady’s support. for young people in relation to access to work experience and face-to-face information, advice and guidance, which Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): I cannot is at the heart of a good system? claim to be the daughter of a skilled worker, as the hon. Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander) did, but Nicky Morgan: I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s support, I can claim to be the son of a skilled manual worker and which I know is heartfelt, and I know he has a lot of to be someone who attended a pretty bog standard and experience, from before he entered the House, in the quite poor comprehensive school. Is not the truth that further education sector. Schools and colleges already poor-performing comprehensives cannot possibly offer have a duty to offer impartial advice and guidance, the sort of links to employers that posh private schools, which can include one-to-one, face-to-face interviews, such as those attended by various Members, can? How as well as work experience. The purpose of the company will this announcement ensure that those who attend is to support schools and colleges in order to fulfil our what have been called “bog standard” comprehensives commitments. From conversations I have had around get access to proper workplace experience? the country, I know that many busy teachers, heads and leaders in education welcome the opportunity and support the company will provide in terms of employers coming Nicky Morgan: I know that my hon. Friend had in and talking to students. I suspect we will want to see direct teaching experience in colleges before he came work experience opportunities, job interviews and all here. Returning to my previous answer, we know that sorts of other things as well. On the changes made this the good links, as my hon. Friend says, happen in some Parliament, the point is that having an external service schools in some parts of the country. What this company was not the right way to go. It is right for the schools, will do through a network of enterprise and employment which know their students, to identify and support advisers is to make sure that the links between schools them in making those choices. and businesses and employers happen right across the country. Some schools are very fortunate in having a Mr Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley) (Con): It would appear large successful company down the road that offers an that hyperbolic nonsense is not just the preserve of BBC excellent scheme, but many schools are not in that “Today” journalists, but shared by the shadow Secretary position. Yet there are some fantastic businesses out of State for Education. I think this is a great statement. there, often perhaps in the supply chain or in the service As the Secretary of State knows, I represent a rural sector, looking for the next great generation of constituency with a diverse range of schools, from employees—and I am absolutely convinced that they grammar to comprehensive, from denominational to are in the schools that my hon. Friend mentions. non-denominational. Will she guarantee that the exciting services being offered today will be offered with rurality Dame Angela Watkinson (Hornchurch and Upminster) and diversity in mind? (Con): May I commend to the Secretary of State the excellent schools, colleges and academies in Hornchurch Nicky Morgan: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. and Upminster, and the pre-apprenticeship and skills We want all schools to participate in this scheme, supported training organisations there? They all recognise the by employers. What we have already seen as a result of importance of employability skills—having good oral, the educational changes that this Government have social and interpersonal skills, good timekeeping and brought in is more collaboration and partnership between good manners. Does she agree that, without those skills, schools of all different kinds. This company will serve no matter how good a pupil’s qualifications, they are many different schools. One point captured in my hon. unlikely to compete very well at interview? Will the new Friend’s question is that we see some of this good organisation take that into consideration? 901 Preparing Young People for Work10 DECEMBER 2014 Preparing Young People for Work 902

Nicky Morgan: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Nicky Morgan: I echo my hon. Friend’s words about Organisations, employers and businesses up and down Christine Hodgson. Christine champions the Work the country talk about that. As I said in the statement, Inspiration initiative, which is a national employer-led rigorous academic standards are, of course, important, campaign targeting young people to make their first but so are the employability skills that she mentions. experience in the workplace meaningful. She is also That is why I have also focused since my appointment involved in business and the community. My hon. Friend on the importance of character education—the resilience, is absolutely right to say that she is a great role model the grit, the persistence, the self-confidence, the self- for all young people, but particularly for young women, esteem—that we want to see developed in our young encouraging them to see the senior roles they could play people. I think that having employers and businesses in companies. I mentioned the idea of having more involved in schools will help to shape those employability apprentices going back to their former schools to talk skills that she rightly mentions. about the opportunities open to them. Seeing employers working in exciting sectors will open up eyes and inspire Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con): My careers the next generation. advice teacher assured me I had no chance of becoming an MP when I was older. What role do we see for the Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): I very National Citizen Service providers and organisations much welcome today’s statement, but bearing in mind such as the scouts and guides? the very low proportion of girls participating, can the Secretary of State assure me that girls and their families Nicky Morgan: I am not sure that my careers adviser will be encouraged to overcome stereotypes and to even told me about the option of becoming a Member consider careers and apprenticeships in engineering and of Parliament. I discovered that via a roundabout route. technology? My hon. Friend is right to say that the £5 million investment fund that we are going to launch via the Nicky Morgan: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. company will allow organisations such as the scouts, This is about ensuring that all our young people are guides, the National Employer Service and others— inspired about the career options, including a wide including Young Chamber, to which I have spoken number of new careers, open to them. As I said, I am recently—to make a bid either to fund new activities or passionate about making sure that more girls are studying to scale up existing activities so that they are spread science and maths for longer, which is why we are around the country, offering the opportunity to acquire backing the Your Life campaign and working with employability skills. organisations such as the Institution of Engineering and Technology. She mentioned families, and this is Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): I welcome the very important too. For many families, it is easier to additional support for careers guidance in schools and give advice about careers that are known about, but colleges. Will my right hon. Friend consider using a much harder to inspire young people to take up careers proportion of this money, or asking the new company they know little about, which is where this company will to use a proportion of this money, to tackle the outdated come in. images of industries such as manufacturing and construction, which put so many young people off Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): In Pendle we considering a career in these vital and growing sectors have seen a big reduction in the number of young of our economy? people not in education, employment or training. We have also seen the number of young people undertaking Nicky Morgan: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. an apprenticeship double. However, some of our local This is about inspiring our young people to consider all apprenticeships providers such as the Nelson and Colne the different careers out there. Various sectors have college are now struggling to find young people to fill changed over the years. For example, we see much more the apprenticeship vacancies available with local employers. advanced high-tech manufacturing nowadays. I am How will today’s proposals increase the awareness of passionate about ensuring that our girls and young apprenticeships and vocational routes for our young women are inspired to go into sectors that they might people? not traditionally have considered. That is why I am so passionate, too, about backing campaigns such as Your Nicky Morgan: My hon. Friend mentioned employers Life. in his constituency that are looking for apprentices and appreciate the vocational and technical route through Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con): I congratulate to careers. Because the company is employer-led, it will my right hon. Friend on this announcement, and be able to go into and work with schools and colleges to particularly on the appointment of Christine Hodgson, identify those for whom apprenticeships might never who is an inspirational business leader. Does my right have been suggested, but who might be interested once hon. Friend agree that getting role models into schools— the high-quality apprenticeships available in the 21st whether they are business leaders or successful century are explained to them. I suspect that many apprentices—is vital, and can she explain how this young people will decide that those opportunities provide company will be able to support that move? the right career path for them. 903 10 DECEMBER 2014 Points of Order 904

Points of Order I understand why the hon. Gentleman wishes to draw the matter to wider attention, and, by making his point 2.8 pm of order, he has done so. I think that he has done so Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): On a point effectively, because I see that Ministers are taking note of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. In a debate on of what he has said and of what I am saying, and I have consideration of Lords amendments to the Criminal no doubt that the matter will be drawn to the attention Justice and Courts Bill on 1 December, the Lord Chancellor, of the Lord Chancellor. I should add that, although the while addressing the judicial review clauses in the Bill, hon. Gentleman mentioned the debate that took place misled this House—a matter that he corrected in a letter in another place yesterday, there will of course be dated 4 December to the hon. and learned Member for another opportunity for this House to debate the substantive Torridge and West Devon (Mr Cox), a copy of which matters in the near future, and I have every confidence was subsequently placed in the Libraries of both Houses. that the Lord Chancellor will take that opportunity to In that letter, the Lord Chancellor wrote: set the record straight. I also have every confidence that “As we discussed, during what was a complicated debate, I if he does not do so, the hon. Gentleman will insist that inadvertently suggested to you that clause 64 contains a provision he does. The Chair will also keep an eye on the matter. for the court to grant permission to proceed with a judicial review where conduct is highly likely to have not made a difference if it Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): On a considered there were exceptional circumstances to do so. I would point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. You will know like to take this opportunity to clarify that that is not the case. No such exceptional circumstances provision exists in this clause.” that, in the wake of Prime Minister’s Questions, the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham), the former Given that this misrepresentation goes to the heart of Health Secretary, attempted to rebut what the Deputy the Government’s proposals for judicial review in the Prime Minister had said about the facts of the franchise Bill, I seek your guidance, Madam Deputy Speaker, on agreement for Hinchingbrooke hospital—the first whether it is sufficient by way of correction to write to privatisation of an acute district hospital in the NHS. only one Member who took part in the debate and then He used words to the effect of “I did not sign off the to place a copy of that letter in the Libraries. Would it privatisation.” However, on 27 March 2010, The Times not be more appropriate for the Lord Chancellor to recorded that he had signed the agreement to restrict correct the record? I ask that particularly because it was the number of providers to just three, in the private clear from the debate in the other place yesterday on sector. I fear that he may therefore have inadvertently this House’s disagreements with the Lords amendments misled the House with a slightly disingenuous response. that the noble Lords taking part were unaware of the I wonder whether you have been given notice that he Lord Chancellor’s correction. will come to the House in the next few days to correct Madam Deputy Speaker: The hon. Gentleman has the record. made a perfectly reasonable point of order. It is certainly the case that, when a Minister has inadvertently misled Madam Deputy Speaker: The fact that we have heard the House, it is essential for that Minister to put the one genuine point of order does not mean that it should matter straight. In this instance, it appears that the be assumed that all other points of order are anything Minister has written to the Member concerned, and more than attempts to extend the debate. However, I has, with all honesty and courtesy, sought to put the appreciate the point that the hon. Gentleman has made, matter straight. The hon. Gentleman has suggested and, again, I am sure that Ministers—and, in this that that is not adequate. Whether it is adequate or not instance, the colleagues of the right hon. Member for is a matter of judgment, particularly for the Minister Leigh (Andy Burnham)—have taken note of what he concerned. has said. 905 10 DECEMBER 2014 Planning Consent Applications 906 (Contracts) Planning Consent Applications (Contracts) My Barrow resident believed that many years would pass before the development of 504 houses was built, Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order and that, in the meantime, his own house and those of No. 23) everyone else in the area who wished to sell would be blighted. Uncertainty about when building will start, when it will be completed, and whether changes will be 2.12 pm made in the initial outline application—the five-year Mr Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley) (Con): I beg to move, land supply figures could be altered, so developers might argue that the land supply figure for the area was That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require applicants for planning consent to enter into a contract with the relevant no longer being met—has caused an enormous headache planning authority setting out certain undertakings relating to for local authorities generally. the application for planning consent; to provide that failure to Small local authorities find it even more difficult to meet those undertakings would result in withdrawal of any planning cope, because, during this crazy period between the consent granted; and for connected purposes. adoption and full approval of core strategies, developers Planning is one of the issues that can dominate the are trying it on all over the place. Fortunately, Ribble lives of Members of Parliament. Passions run high, and Valley is close to having its core strategy fully approved—it rightly so. We have no power over the local authority is in its final stages—but developers have worked overtime when a planning application is received, but we can putting in applications left, right and centre, and appealing receive many e-mails and letters from constituents who against virtually every one that is turned down by the are animated by the application to build. We have the local authority.The cost to the council has been prohibitive, ability to write to the chairman of planning and the and has led it to question whether it can afford to other committee members, and to officers, and hopefully appeal in the case of some applications. There will be a the local authority will recognise that we have a legitimate further problem if some of the approvals simply do not right to express a view on our own behalf and on behalf materialise if work starts, and other developers point of our constituents. However, we do not have a vote at the finger at the authority and accuses it of falling planning meetings. On more than one occasion I have below its five-year supply. The chairman of planning at expressed opposition to an application which has then Ribble Valley council, Terry Hill, has said that, in this been approved, but it has been far worse for me when I case, have opposed an application—such as the one in Barrow, ”the Local Authority is not responsible for the under supply”. a small village in my constituency—and the local authority The uncertainty has been created by the very industry has listened to my representations and those of the local that could profit from the approval of more applications councillor and residents. directly by the council or on appeal by an inspector. It In the Barrow case, what was worse was that, as the has left residents angry and their properties blighted, authority was deliberating, the landowner claimed non- and they must reduce the asking prices of their properties determination after 13 weeks. His planning lawyer stated dramatically if they need to move quickly. that the homes in question needed to be built, and that I am grateful to the House of Commons Library for they would start to be built in 2015. We are now at the supplying me with information on the existing powers end of the current year. Approval was given in February of local authorities, and on unimplemented permissions 2014, 10 months ago. Reserved matters have not been and land banking. Conditions may be imposed by a claimed for any part of the land, which was originally local authority, but the criteria are open to interpretation, for sale at £23 million. So much for the urgency of which means more uncertainty. One of the conditions building those houses. may be that the development should be carried out in its Let us consider the specifics of the Barrow case. A entirety, but no mention is made of time scale. Completion resident who came to see me after the inspector had notices are therefore seldom used as a local authority approved the application said, barely restraining his power. Indeed, a local authority does not have the anger, “Mr Evans, you know and I know that with all power to require a developer to complete the development. the building that is going on at the moment in the area, My Bill will rebalance the position, so that, at the this site is not going to be developed any time soon.” I outset of an application, far more thought is given by agreed with him. Building is already going on in the developers to what they are requesting. They will need village. Hundreds more houses are actually being built a to bring forward to the inception of the application short distance away, in Whalley. In Calderstones, a bit matters that they normally leave until much later. They further away, more houses have been and are being will need to make clear the start and completion dates built. A development of well over 100 houses off Mitton of the development via a contract. Land banking and road has been allowed on appeal. In Accrington road, the blighting of people’s homes will no longer be acceptable. Whalley, 87 houses were approved two years ago. You The Library paper—admittedly, using historic figures— have guessed it: not a single brick has been laid, and no states that at the end of 2011, there were 399,816 reserved matters have been sought. unbuilt homes with planning permission, and building Some of these developments have been built, and work had yet to start on 52% of the uncompleted others have not. The uncertainty is awful, and it does developments. One development was completed last not help local authorities to plan for new schools, roads year, eight and three quarter years after planning permission or other infrastructure improvements. One of the Whalley was granted. The Government should look at fining developments of 80 houses has not been started, although powers for unstarted permissions or powers of direction three years have elapsed since permission was given, but to ensure developments are completed, or possibly removing a reserved matters application has just been received by the permissions with no chance of reapplication by that the local authority.All those applications have infrastructure developer or associated developers of that particular implications. land. If the houses are deemed necessary in certain 907 Planning Consent Applications 10 DECEMBER 2014 908 (Contracts) areas—in my patch, I must say, I have strong reservations Stamp Duty Land Tax Bill about that or total opposition to it—I cannot do better Second Reading than quote the former housing Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles), who, during Committee stage of the Growth and 2.21 pm Infrastructure Act 2013, said: The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David “We want homes built. We want them built now”.––[Official Gauke): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Report, Growth and Infrastructure Public Bill Committee, 27 November 2012; c. 267.] Second time. Let us give local authorities the power they need to My right hon. Friend the Chancellor announced in ensure land banking and uncertainty is gone and homes last week’s autumn statement an important and and infrastructure improvements are made, and made comprehensive reform to stamp duty land tax—SDLT—on on time. residential property. Many Members made their views known on the SDLT changes in last week’s debate on Question put and agreed to. the provisional collection of taxes motion. Today is an Ordered, opportunity for others to raise their voices, although That Mr Nigel Evans, Bob Stewart, Martin Vickers, looking around the Chamber, it appears possible that John Mann, Austin Mitchell, Philip Davies, Chris Heaton- the House’s appetite for debating this matter was sated Harris, Crispin Blunt, Mr Brooks Newmark, Steve last week. Rotheram, Mr John Leech and John Pugh present the With effect from 4 December, the structure, rates and Bill. thresholds of stamp duty land tax have changed, and Mr Nigel Evans accordingly presented the Bill. stamp duty has moved from a slab to a slice arrangement. Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 6 March 2015, and to be printed (Bill 135). Alok Sharma (Reading West) (Con): Of course I, like many colleagues, welcome the measure. My constituents are some of the most aspirational people in the country, and they think that this is a great move by the Government. What assessment has my hon. Friend, or perhaps the Office for Budget Responsibility, made of likely increases in the volume of property transactions as a result of this change to stamp duty?

Mr Gauke: This is likely to have an impact, with more transactions for properties on which the stamp duty bill has fallen—some 98% or so—and slightly fewer transactions when a larger stamp duty bill will apply. Although there will be an element of behavioural change as a consequence of the measure, property transaction numbers and house prices will be affected by a whole range of factors, so it can be difficult to ascribe any particular changes to one particular reason. However, it is likely that there will be more transactions, and that has certain advantages, such as for labour market mobility, and if it means that people are living in the homes that they want to live in as opposed to feeling trapped in their property to a certain extent. I think that the measure will have a beneficial impact on the housing market. Each new SDLT rate is now payable only on the portion of the property value that falls within each band. That is in contrast to the old system, under which tax was due at one rate for the entire property value. Moving from a slab to a slice arrangement is right in terms of fairness and economic efficiency. The new arrangement will cut SDLT for 98% of people who pay the tax, and no one who is buying a home worth up to £937,500 will pay more. This Government believe in aspiration. The aspiration to own our own house is one of the elements of human nature. It is something that, for generations, has been totemic for people in this country. This is a Government who will help people to achieve that ambition, and do so in a fair and equitable way. The previous stamp duty system was flawed. It had been criticised by hon. Members on both sides of the House, industry and think-tanks. It was “one of the worst designed and most damaging of all taxes”, 909 Stamp Duty Land Tax Bill10 DECEMBER 2014 Stamp Duty Land Tax Bill 910

[Mr Gauke] proportion of income tax paid by the top 1% has been higher—and is projected to be higher—in the years according to the director of the Institute for Fiscal since that cut than it was when the 50p rate was in place. Studies, and “unfair” according to the Building Societies There is a similar point to be made here. For properties, Association. According to the Royal Institution of we estimate that the top 1% will be paying just under Chartered Surveyors, it did not 40% of all stamp duty yields, whereas in 2010, under the “work as it stands and creates large distortions”. old system, the top 1% were paying only 19% of all The problem with the previous system was simple. yields. Stamp duty has become more progressive as a The slab approach created an enormous hike in taxes at consequence of our changes. certain thresholds. If someone paid £250,000 for a house, they would pay £2,500 in stamp duty. If they Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): How paid £250,001, however, they would pay £7,500—three does that affect the shrinking tax base? This is a genuine times as much. In reality, of course, nobody did; they question, by the way. The tax base seems to be shrinking would have been crazy to. What happened was that at the moment, so will this change have an impact on there were dead zones—in this case a little above the tax base, or will it be neutral? £250,000—in which almost no transactions actually took place. Mr Gauke: I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman To return to the intervention made by my hon. Friend is referring to the fact that there has been a deliberate the Member for Reading West (Alok Sharma), this shrinkage of the tax base, in that we have taken 3.4 million change is likely to result in a substantial increase in the people out of income tax. Perhaps that was not what he number of transactions in those dead zones because of meant, but I am happy to draw the House’s attention to the ending of the bunching effect, which should help us that policy none the less. The Government have, on a to have a more efficient market. Let me again give an number of occasions, made the tax system more progressive. example that I cited in last week’s debate: in 2013-14, At a time when the public finances are in a difficult there were over 30 times as many sales between £245,000 position and we need to consolidate them, we have and £250,000 as there were between £250,000 and £255,000. ensured that the wealthiest in society bear a significant Given that the average UK house price is around £275,000, burden, and this measure is an example of that. We this was a big distortion affecting a significant number have made stamp duty land tax more progressive by of properties. reducing the burden on ordinary households and collecting more tax from the top end, where there has been a What also happened was that people owning properties significant appreciation in values in recent years. a little under the threshold were reluctant to improve them for fear that that would be money thrown away if they came to put the property on the market. Also, Alok Sharma: My hon. Friend talked about the yearly people wishing to move up the property ladder as their property tax that others have proposed, but irrespective families grew, but who found themselves on the wrong of whether such a tax were introduced, is it not the case side of the step upwards, had to find a significant—and that it would not help those who want to buy their own arbitrarily imposed—lump sum precisely at a time when house? Does he agree that the Government are introducing there are hundreds of other one-off expenses to worry aspiration into home buying, which is something that about. We have got rid of the inefficient and distortive we should all be encouraging? old system, and replaced it with a fairer new system that cuts SDLT for 98% of people who pay it. Mr Gauke: Indeed; that is right. These measures will Under the new structure, no buyer purchasing a be helpful for those who want to get into the housing property will pay anything at all up to the first £125,000. market and who often face significant challenges in Buyers will be charged 2% for the portion from £125,000 putting together a deposit and meeting the transactional to £250,000, and 3% for the portion from £250,000 to costs involved. I believe that it will be helpful that we £925,000. Those individuals buying a house worth more have been able to reduce the transactional costs. I return than £925,000 will be charged 10% for the portion of to the point I made a few moments ago: this measure the price between £925,000 and £1.5 million, and buyers will help households up and down the country and we, will pay 12% tax for any portion of the price above the as a Government, believe in aspiration. £1.5 million threshold. Let me stress that in every city, town and county in I stress that the tax will be paid once, and once only, the United Kingdom, a large majority of people will at the point when the purchaser has the cash to do so. benefit from the new system. No buyer of a property Once it has been paid, that is it, because we do not under £937,000 will pay more tax than under the previous believe in introducing a system that would require homes system, and there will be a tax cut for 98% of home to be revalued every year, or in imposing a large liability buyers who currently pay SDLT. In London, 91% of on people who may be asset-rich but cash-poor. home buyers who pay SDLT will see their tax bill cut. In Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, over 99% of Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD): I welcome the rate profile those paying SDLT will see the rewards in their pockets. that my hon. Friend has put into the Bill. Does he agree A buyer of the average Help to Buy home priced at that the measure is another example of this Government £185,000 will be £650 better off as a result of these increasing taxes for the wealthy and making those with reforms. the broadest shoulders bear the biggest burden? The reforms came into force at midnight on 4 December to avoid creating undue distortions in the market, meaning Mr Gauke: It is an example of that. In yesterday’s that a stand-alone Bill was necessary. The Bill was Treasury questions, in the context of the reduction of introduced in Parliament on 4 December, following a the 50p rate of tax to 45p, I pointed out that the provisional collection of taxes motion at the end of the 911 Stamp Duty Land Tax Bill10 DECEMBER 2014 Stamp Duty Land Tax Bill 912 autumn statement. If a person had exchanged contracts We are investing billions of public money to provide before 4 December but completes on or after that date, affordable new homes, including £4.5 billion during this our transitional arrangements mean that they can choose spending review period to provide 170,000 new units, whether to use the old or the new rates and structure. and a further £3.3 billion to deliver 165,000 more units We have provided a calculator on the Her Majesty’s over three years from 2015. As announced in the autumn Revenue and Customs website so that people can work statement, there will be another £1.9 billion between out how much tax they would be paying, and I am 2018 and 2020 to continue delivering homes at the same happy to confirm that it has been used more than rate. We are also reforming planning laws. The autumn 880,000 times since it was put in place on Wednesday. statement package contains commitments on releasing It is a bit of a standing joke that the UK is a country land with capacity for up to 150,000 homes and new obsessed with house prices, but for most of us, buying a measures to support up to 133,000 homes. home involves the biggest amount of money we will ever spend. Stamp duty land tax is an important source Mr Jim Cunningham: Will the Minister give way? of Government revenue. It raised £6.5 billion in 2013-14 to pay for the essential services that the Government Mr Gauke: I should like to make some progress, as I provide and support. However, it is only reasonable that want to answer the question asked by my hon. Friend the tax should be imposed fairly and equitably. As a the Member for Reading West. result of difficult decisions that we have taken elsewhere, In September, we introduced a new £400 million rent we are now able to forgo £800 million of revenue to to buy programme, boosting the building of new rental introduce these changes. homes to help people to upgrade into home ownership. The changes have been warmly welcomed. They are The programme allows people to rent affordably and to save for a deposit, and then to buy that home or another “great news for those buying a home or considering a move”, one. To answer my hon. Friend’s question, more than according to Nationwide. They are particularly good 66,000 households have benefitted from the Help to for Buy equity loan and mortgage guarantee schemes, four “first time buyers and second steppers”, fifths of whom were first-time buyers. according to Savills, and Mr Cunningham: Obviously we want people to be “a shot in the arm for families and growing firms”, able to own their homes, but there is another facet to according to the CBI. My particular favourite came this: social housing, either through local authorities or from a Mr Tom Whipple—a science correspondent for housing associations. What element of the money that The Times—on Twitter, who wrote: the Government are putting into these schemes is going “We are moving home next week. Osborne just saved us £400. to that end of the market? The drop from 70% to 65% I’m calling our new fridge freezer George.” that the Minister mentioned earlier probably relates to people going into the rental market. That is how to become a household name in politics! On a more serious note, I would like to touch on how Mr Gauke: The hon. Gentleman should bear in mind the change affects Scotland. From 1 April 2015, the that almost 217,000 affordable homes have been delivered land and buildings transactions tax—LBTT—will replace since April 2010. Between 2011 and 2015, some £19.5 billion stamp duty land tax in Scotland. Up until that point, of public and private investment is going into affordable these reforms will apply to all residential property homes, and we are on track for the highest rate of transactions in the UK, including Scotland. This will affordable house building in at least two decades. The ensure that home buyers in Scotland do not miss out on Government are delivering on all aspects of how we a potential tax cut before the LBTT comes into operation. ensure that we give people the opportunity to have I am aware that there are some in the UK who will be decent housing. These SDLT reforms will give another unaffected by this change. As housing has become less boost to people wishing to fulfil their aspirations to affordable, the rate of home ownership has fallen from own the place they live in. its 2003 peak of 70% to around 65%. Many are wondering whether they will ever get on to the housing ladder. Our Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con): I apologise reforms to SDLT will assist those households by reducing to the House for not being here for the start of the the amount of cash needed at the point of purchase. It debate. I am sure that the Minister will be aware that should be stressed that SDLT is part of a much wider when the previous Government introduced a new SDLT set of reforms designed to get Britain building, to regime, there were several avoidance schemes, most of increase radically the supply of housing units, and to which involving sub-selling at below the market value. I release some of the pressure on our housing market. applaud the Bill and look forward to its passage through the House. Will he confirm that the anti-avoidance measures under the previous regime will be read over to Alok Sharma: The Minister cites the schemes that the this Bill to stop the abuse of the tax system? Government have implemented to help people to buy their own homes. Will he tell us how many people have Mr Gauke: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for benefited from the Help to Buy scheme? Will not these raising that point, because the Government have addressed changes give a further boost to the scheme? this issue fully during this Parliament. A few years ago, SDLT was starting to develop a reputation as a tax that Mr Gauke: My hon. Friend raises an important point. was easily abused—he mentioned one means by which Indeed, I am about to mention some of the measures that was done—but this Government have introduced that we have taken in respect of helping the housing several measures to deal with that. We have seen a market, including Help to Buy. substantial decline in the marketing of SDLT avoidance 913 Stamp Duty Land Tax Bill10 DECEMBER 2014 Stamp Duty Land Tax Bill 914

[Mr Gauke] week in order to give immediate effect to the stamp duty measures unveiled in the autumn statement. We debated schemes, and the introduction of the annual tax on that motion the day after the autumn statement and enveloped dwellings has been successful in discouraging today we move on to the Bill’s Second Reading. The avoidance. He is right to highlight the issue, but we are Government have proceeded with a stand-alone Bill making changes in the context of a SDLT that is rather than await the next Finance Bill in order to give perhaps less leaky than when we came into office a few immediate effect to the stamp duty changes and thereby years ago. That enables us to make our changes, which prevent distortions within the housing market. We recognise benefit properties in a way that is, none the less, affordable the importance of that and support the mechanisms for the Exchequer. As the Chancellor made clear last adopted to give effect to this measure. week, the policy will deliver a tax bill cut for 98% of As the Minister said, stamp duty has been charged at people who pay SDLT, and the previous economic a single rate on the whole purchase price of a property, distortions in the system have been removed, which with different rates for different value bands. When a benefits the housing market generally. property exceeds the threshold for a higher rate of duty, tax is charged at the higher rate on the whole value of John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con): First, I apologise for the sale—this is the so-called “slab basis”—rather than being late, as I was serving on a Delegated Legislation on the part of the price above the threshold, which is Committee. I welcome the reforms for the residential the so-called “slice basis”. The tax has been charged on market, but do the Government have any intention to the slab basis for more than 40 years, and the slab basis introduce similar provisions for the commercial market? design has caused much consternation and complaint, with regular calls for reform. Mr Gauke: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for In recent years, stamp duty has come under the raising that point, which we debated briefly last week. spotlight much more because of the increasing burden Particular issues with the residential market meant that the tax has placed on home buyers, especially first-time we needed to address that quickly, and some of the buyers, as a result of the huge increases in house prices. pressures to reform the system applied particularly to Between 1997 and 2005, house price inflation averaged the residential market. Clearly, any Government will more than 10% a year, and the proportion of property want to keep this matter under review, so I would not transactions attracting stamp duty rose from about half want to rule out looking at the commercial market. to more than three quarters during roughly the same However, the imperative was to press on for the residential period. In order to assist buyers, and first-time buyers market, and no doubt commercial property and SDLT in particular, we have seen a number of measures designed is a matter to which the Government will wish to return to alleviate some of the burden caused by stamp duty in the future. I know that he welcomes these reforms, under its previous structure. They focused primarily and I should point out that more than 99% of transactions on thresholds and stamp duty holidays: the threshold in his constituency will benefit from our changes. was doubled in 2005; it was temporarily increased by £50,000 for one year in 2008; and it was doubled again Jake Berry: What will be the SDLT position when for first-time buyers for three years from March 2010. there is a mixture of residential and commercial property? How will a shop with a flat above it, for example, be The burden of stamp duty, however, has continued to treated under the new SDLT regime? be significant, increasing by 30% between 2009-10 and 2013-14. The continued growth in the housing market Mr Gauke: The residential property would be considered has been the reason for the increasing stamp duty under the new residential regime, and an evaluation burden. In that context, today’s reform is sensible and would be needed to distinguish between the commercial has attracted support from across the House. SDLT and the residential premises. rates will now only apply to the part of the property’s selling price that falls within each value band, and new This reform will improve the fairness and efficiency rates and thresholds have been introduced. of the tax system. It will make a real, tangible, positive difference to the lives of people up and down the I have a number of questions on specific elements of country, and I hope that hon. Members will think fit to the changes, and I hope that the Exchequer Secretary give the Bill a Second Reading. will deal with them when she responds to the debate. The changes came in with immediate effect on 4 December. The Government have explained that those who had 2.45 pm exchanged contracts before 4 December but who were Shabana Mahmood (Birmingham, Ladywood) (Lab): completing on or after that date will be able to choose I am grateful to the Minister for his introduction to this whether the old or the new rules apply. Will the Minister Bill—I am only sorry he was not breathless with excitement update us on how many people she anticipates will opt today as he was last week when we first debated the for one or other of those options, and what impact the stamp duty changes. He is, however, right not to spoil us changes have had on property transactions in the period with a repeat performance, and I was amused to see that immediately following the autumn statement? we all arrived super-early for this afternoon’s debate. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury made it clear I wish to indicate, as I did at the outset of last week’s both last week and this afternoon how Her Majesty’s debate, that we support these measures, and will be Revenue and Customs has been giving advice on the supporting the Bill on Second Reading and during its implications of this reform. I think he said that the remaining stages. The Minister mentioned the procedural calculator on the Government website had been used mechanism adopted to give effect to these changes: the 500,000 times last week. That figure has now gone up to Government moved a resolution under the Provisional 880,000. He also told us that the HMRC call centre was Collection of Taxes Act 1968, which was passed last manned until midnight on 3 December when the changes 915 Stamp Duty Land Tax Bill10 DECEMBER 2014 Stamp Duty Land Tax Bill 916 took effect, and that HMRC specialists responded to will apply to both residential and commercial properties. 250 inquiries by telephone, and all but 3% of them were I want to press the Minister on what impact that will resolved immediately. Will the Minister update us on have on the rest of the UK when it comes to the whether the remaining handful of inquiries have been question of where businesses choose to buy commercial followed up, and on what points were members of the properties. Is there a risk that England may be public or their advisers seeking clarification? It would disadvantaged? The more favourable regime in Scotland, be helpful for the House to understand how the public with the slice structure for commercial property, might are responding to these changes. mean that businesses avoid buying commercial property I also wish to press the Minister on the revenue in England where the less favourable slab structure implications of the measures. It is estimated that, in applies. What impact will that differential treatment of 2014-15, the reform will cost £395 million, which rises commercial property have on business mobility? Although to around £760 million in 2015-16. That is a significant devolution is an important process, as it puts decision amount of money at a time when the public finances making closer to the people whom it affects, we all want remain challenging to say the least. How certain is the to avoid unhealthy tax competition among the nations Minister that the other measures in the autumn statement, of the UK. Has any assessment been carried out to which the Government say will raise enough revenue to consider the implications of such competition? offset the cost of this measure, will in fact raise the Of course none of the measures that we are debating amounts that they hope? Today, the Government have today deals with the main cause of the biggest housing published the draft Bill for the new diverted profits tax, crisis for a generation, which is the lack of supply. Last which they say will raise £1.3 billion over the scorecard week, I asked the Minister about how the stamp duty period. However, the Office for Budget Responsibility changes will impact on house prices. He said that there says that those numbers are uncertain, and, in its fiscal would be some impact, but that house prices are affected outlook, gives a new rating system to reflect the degrees by a number of factors. I wish to press him and the of uncertainty over some of the figures in the autumn Exchequer Secretary on the assumptions that the statement. For the diverted profits tax and the SDLT Government have made, and what outcome they would numbers, for example, it gives a medium to high uncertainty like to see when it comes to the interaction between the rating. What impact will that have, and how confident is stamp duty changes and house prices. It looks like we the Minister that we will not have future debates on the are seeing a 1.4% increase in prices against a 1% reduction failure of some of these measures to live up to the in stamp duty at the lower end, and it seems also that Government’s claims? the tax take from stamp duty will rely on a 5% annual We have just heard how these changes will apply only increase in property prices. to residential properties. The Institute for Fiscal Studies The OBR says that house prices will continue to rise and others have queried why the changes have not been faster than incomes, which will risk pushing home extended to cover commercial property, too. When I ownership further out of reach for many more people. raised that point last week, the Minister said that the Have the Government assessed how many more people Government were not persuaded of the case, but it does might be priced out of the property market? seem odd to be running two different systems for the Measures to alleviate the burden on buyers are welcome, same tax, especially when the Government have but we are experiencing the worst housing crisis for a acknowledged, as we all have, that the slab structure has generation and need much more action on housing a very distorting effect. supply if we are to get our housing market into better The Government say that the slab stamp duty system shape and help more young people and families to had a negative impact on labour mobility. Why do they realise their dream of home ownership. I note the think that the same will not happen in relation to comments that the Financial Secretary to the Treasury business mobility? Perhaps the Exchequer Secretary made in his opening speech, but the truth is that we can give us some more detail on the Government’s need to build many more homes than this Government thinking in that regard. Has any assessment been done have managed in their term of office. At the moment, on the impact of retaining the slab system for commercial the Government are primarily focusing on the demand property, and on how competitive a place this country is side of the housing equation, whereas we, on the Opposition in which to do business? Are there any plans to look at Benches, think that they should have taken the opportunity this matter again ahead of the general election? to balance things up on the supply side, too. Last week, the Minister said that the changes will However, the measures before us today are reasonable have a positive effect on labour mobility and productivity, and sensible. We support them, and I look forward to but the OBR says that the effect will be limited and further debate in Committee. highly uncertain, because while “higher rates of stamp duty reduce households’ propensity to move, the adverse effect was confined to short-distance and 2.58 pm non-job related moves - an impact less likely to have direct implications for GDP.” Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): I am delighted with the changes to stamp duty; I have been campaigning Why do Ministers think slightly differently on the matter for them for a significant period of time. It is worth of labour mobility? observing the old adage that success has many parents, As the Minister has explained, the measures apply to but failure is an orphan, as it could be relevant to the Scotland only until April next year, as responsibility for campaign. When I was claiming a bit of a victory on this tax was devolved to the Scottish Government in the this, having campaigned for it for so long, I was amazed Scotland Act 2012. The Scottish Government have to read that the Liberal Democrats had campaigned announced details of their land and buildings transaction equally long for the change. Surprisingly, though, not a tax, which also has a slice structure. The Scottish LBTT single Liberal Democrat turned up to the Backbench 917 Stamp Duty Land Tax Bill10 DECEMBER 2014 Stamp Duty Land Tax Bill 918

[Mrs Anne Main] flawed? It might be unaffordable, but I think that is almost indefensible. If it is a bad scheme, it is a bad Business debate that I secured on the matter on 4 September. scheme. I do not want business owners and people who Perhaps lobbying is more in the mind than in the wish to aspire to own their own business feeling that actuality. they are labouring under a bad scheme that has been Let us not be bitter today, as I welcome the proposals. roundly denounced, and quite rightly so, by all parties It was good to follow the shadow Minister, as she was in the House. raising some of the concerns that I have about a differential tax system. It will have to be addressed, because altering 3.3 pm the designation of a property from commercial to Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD): I will not detain the House residential, or residential to commercial, could provide for long but I want to register the Liberal Democrats’ a way of avoiding tax, as one situation may be seen as support for these proposals. They are important measures more beneficial than the other. To have a dual system that relate to the liquidity of the housing market. The running may well cause problems. point at which people pay a lot of money is generally a I also worry that in areas where it is hard to keep good point at which to raise taxes, but if they are levied small commercial operations going, the temptation to in a way that causes the market to be less liquid, that is a flip a property’s designation to residential, rather than bad thing. trying to maintain it as a commercial property, will be I said in my speech last week that slab systems in even higher if there is also a tax advantage in doing so. I general need to be looked at, on both the tax and urge the Government to keep that under review, because benefits side, because by definition they produce cliff if the slab system was hated—and it was—it was hated edges and cause sub-optimal behaviour at the boundaries. not just for its effect on homes. For that very reason I will join the chorus of people John Stevenson: Does my hon. Friend therefore suggest who have said that it is also time to look at the commercial that commercial and residential properties should have SDLT arrangements. I think that all slab systems should the same rates and thresholds? be reviewed, because we can be sure on the income side that tax is avoided near those boundaries, and on the Mrs Main: I do suggest that. I am sure that budgetary benefits side people are encouraged or discouraged in constraint is the reason that has not been done, but I am their behaviour because of the cliff edges. concerned that that slice system, which will not apply in I understand the need to introduce these measures Scotland and will apply in England only to residential quickly, and therefore why the Minister might not want properties, could result in complicated reasons why to review all such systems with this kind of speed, but I commercial properties might end up being vehicles urge him to initiate reviews to see what other changes for tax avoidance, which would not be good. The slab might be needed on the commercial side and in any system was roundly denounced by all parties and all other slab systems. I think that the system proposed is commercial commentators, so I think that is something very good. It is progressive. I take the point made by the we should look at. hon. Member for St Albans (Mrs Main) and ask the I welcome the moves to get more young people on the Minister what inflation arrangements he is considering property ladder. In St Albans, the Help to Buy scheme for the boundaries of the new system. The fact that the was not utilised at all because, as has been widely budget document shows an increasing take from stamp observed, if people cannot save up a deposit in a very duty rather suggests the fiscal drag that the hon. Lady expensive area, how on earth can they save for the tax to fears. I would appreciate it if the Minister responded to be paid to the Chancellor? The reform is therefore very that point. helpful in that regard. However, we must ensure that we As I said in an earlier intervention, this reform joins do not allow the properties that we are trying to help—those the long list of measures that the Government have targeted by lower and middle-income buyers—to be introduced to increase taxes on those who can best dragged further into the higher levels. In 2003 only 10% afford it, such as the large increase in capital gains tax of properties were caught by the 3% rate, but just prior and in tax on pension contributions and, indeed, the to these reforms the figure had risen to 25%. It is fact that the top rate of income tax is now 5% higher important that the Government do not sit back and than it was for the entire period of the previous wait for too long following these reforms, because too Government, except for their very last day in office. I many of the families that they have sought to help will welcome the progressive nature of those changes. Very be dragged into the higher rates. wealthy home buyers will be paying a lot more to the According to Savills, which I was talking to today, Treasury, which I welcome. The Minister talked about people in St Albans have already benefited. The amount the percentage effects in various parts of the country. I paid under the previous regime was, on average, £17,273 can report that, to the best of my knowledge, the figure per transaction. Under the new regime it will be £16,020. for those benefiting in Redcar is 100%, so I thank him That is still very high, but of course that is an average, for that. I believe that this change is an important and the average house price in St Albans is over £500,000, matter of fairness, and my party will support it. but there are still many houses that fall well below those transaction levels. My constituents are hugely grateful 3.6 pm that they can at least start trying to get on to the The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Priti Patel): property ladder without having to pay such an enormous It is a pleasure to respond to this efficient debate, and burden to the Treasury. That is welcome. I welcome the consensus on it across the House. The There are two points that I would like some clarity measure has been debated over the past week, so it is on. Why have we decided to keep a dual system going not surprising that we have reached a conclusion quickly when the previous regime was agreed to be so demonstrably today. We have had an effective debate today. This is a 919 Stamp Duty Land Tax Bill10 DECEMBER 2014 Stamp Duty Land Tax Bill 920 landmark reform, as my hon. Friend the Financial Priti Patel: Property in the buy-to-let framework Secretary has said. The Government announced it in would be treated as residential. the autumn statement. It is the most radical restructuring of stamp duty we have seen. It cuts stamp duty for 98% Jake Berry: I refer to the point about flipping between of people who pay it. It eliminates damaging distortions commercial and residential arrangements. My hon. Friend in the housing market, where someone buying a house will be aware that one of the welcome reforms of this for £250,001 pays three times as much tax as someone Government has given automatic planning permission buying a house for just £1 less. for vacant commercial office buildings to become residential property. The substantive implementation of a change Mrs Main: Will my hon. Friend clarify whether that of use and planning permission between a commercial is 98% of all transactions or 98% of all domestic office building and a residential property would be transactions? minimal and could involve, for example, just bringing in desks and putting in more male and female lavatories. Priti Patel: The reform cuts stamp duty for 98% of There is concern about avoidance, and where two systems people who pay it. That is the point I was making. exist, there is greater opportunity for avoidance by The reform reduces the tax bill for first-time buyers. those who seek not to pay their tax. Will she commit As my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary highlighted, from the Dispatch Box to keep this matter under review this is about aspiration. Everything about the debate we and ensure that as the Government take the Bill through have had is about supporting home owners, first-time the House, they will review it and seek opportunities to buyers and the principle of aspiration. tighten up the law to ensure that everyone pays their fair In a moment I will move on to the points that have share of tax? been raised by my hon. Friend the Member for St Albans Priti Patel: My hon. Friend makes a valid point (Mrs Main). The Labour party made a number of about keeping the arrangements under review. We want points about how many people have benefited from to ensure that people pay not just their fair share, but some of the advice that Her Majesty’s Revenue and the right amount. The Government keep all taxes under Customs provided last week on the transitional support. review. The Government do not have the current figures on how many home buyers have benefited from the transitional Sir Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con): Clause 2 reviews. As with most cases where stamp duty is paid, refers to the purchaser being able to elect that the new we get the information only after a transaction has been calculations do not apply, and the explanatory notes fully completed. However, we expect that as many as that my hon. Friend has helpfully supplied state: 35,000 transactions will benefit from the transitional “An election must be made in a land transaction return...and rules, which is a substantial number. must meet any requirements specified by the Commissioners for My hon. Friend the Member for St Albans and the Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs.” hon. Member for Redcar (Ian Swales) mentioned stamp Will any terms so imposed be subject to ministerial duty on commercial properties. They will not be surprised scrutiny and approval? to hear that the Government rightly keep all taxes under review. We have taken swift action on the residential Priti Patel: Absolutely. Ministers are involved in the front, as my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary has process and will be consulted. That is right and proper. highlighted, and that was debated in the House last The point that my right hon. Friend makes is about the week. That swift action has obviously removed the transitional rules, which we touched on earlier. distortions that acted as a break on aspiration and The hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana made it harder for first-time home owners. Mahmood) mentioned Scotland and the changes to The market for commercial property is different and, stamp duty land tax, which has been devolved to Scotland. as I said, we will keep all taxes under review. My hon. The Government will monitor how stamp duty land tax Friend the Member for Rossendale and Darwen (Jake receipts change in the light of that. That is part of the Berry) asked about mixed-use buildings. Those are subject usual policy-making process. to the commercial rules, not the residential rules, as my Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- hon. Friend the Financial Secretary highlighted. The op): Was discussion with the Scottish Government held Government keep all taxes under review and will give in advance of the announcement? Will there be additional consideration to mixed-use buildings ahead of future discussions during the coming weeks and months to events as part of our normal review process. ensure that there are no adverse consequences? My hon. Friend the Member for St Albans touched on Government forecasts. Forecasts of house prices and Priti Patel: This is a commercially sensitive area so stamp duty land tax revenues have been verified by the specific discussions were not held. I reiterate that as Office for Budget Responsibility. My hon. Friend has part of the usual policy-making process there will be been an assiduous campaigner on these issues and had ongoing reviews of how the system works between a debate on the subject in the House not long ago. She Scotland and England. Now that the change has been referred to flipping between commercial and residential made, discussions will take place when necessary. rates for avoidance purposes. We are clear that the reform is not an opportunity for avoidance. Cathy Jamieson: The Minister refers to the normal policy-making process. However, given that the changes Ian Swales: Can the Minister clarify the situation in Scotland are due to be introduced in April, there is a where buy-to-let residential property might be owned very short opportunity for discussion, particularly about within a corporate envelope? Is that treated as a commercial any adverse impact that there might be on the market. business or does it still fall within the residential Does the Minister have plans to meet her counterparts arrangements? in Scotland for discussions? 921 Stamp Duty Land Tax Bill10 DECEMBER 2014 Stamp Duty Land Tax Bill 922

Priti Patel: These are now devolved matters, as the STAMP DUTY LAND TAX BILL (PROGRAMME) hon. Lady knows. As part of not only the devolution process but future policy formation, I have no doubt Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing that discussions will take place. Order No. 83A(7)), That the following provisions shall apply to the Stamp Duty John Stevenson: I am grateful for the earlier clarification Land Tax Bill: about the Government’s position on commercial property. Committal Can the Minister clarify the position on agricultural (1) The Bill shall be committed to a Committee of the whole property? House. Proceedings in Committee, on consideration and on Third Reading Priti Patel: Agricultural property would be treated in (2) Notwithstanding the practice of the House as to the the same way as commercial property. I hope that intervals between stages of Bills brought in on Ways and Means answers my hon. Friend’s question. Resolutions, proceedings in Committee, any proceedings on On housing supply and affordable housing—a point consideration and proceedings on Third Reading shall be completed made today and last week from the Opposition Front at one day’s sitting. Bench—all the work that the Government have put in (3) Proceedings in Committee and any proceedings on consideration place in relation to the stamp duty land tax measure has shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion, on the day on which proceedings in Committee are commenced, been about supporting aspirational home ownership two hours after the commencement of proceedings in Committee. and making home ownership a reality for as many households as possible. This Government support more (4) Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion, on the day on which home ownership, and stamp duty reform is part of that. proceedings in Committee are commenced, three hours after the We are investing billions of pounds to provide affordable commencement of proceedings in Committee. homes including, as my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary (5) Standing Order No. 83B (Programming committees) shall mentioned, £4.5 billion during the spending review period not apply to proceedings in Committee, to any proceedings on to provide more than 170,000 new units, and a further consideration or to proceedings on Third Reading. £3.3 billion to deliver more than 165,000 more homes Other proceedings over three years from 2015. We have also speeded up reforms to planning. Housing starts in England are at (6) Any other proceedings on the Bill (including any proceedings on consideration of any Message from the Lords) may be their highest level since 2007, which we all welcome. In programmed.—(Gavin Barwell.) the autumn statement last week we announced a package to do even more, by introducing measures to support more Question agreed to. than 133,000 new homes. My hon. Friend the Financial Secretary touched on rent-to-buy and help-to-buy schemes. WALES BILL (PROGRAMME) (NO.3) In conclusion, our long-term economic plan has supported home ownership through stamp duty land Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing tax reform and increased supply through the measures Order No. 83A(7)), that I have just outlined. Importantly, the economy is That the following provisions shall apply to the Wales Bill for growing, the deficit is falling, and employment is at a the purpose of supplementing the Order of 31 March 2014 in the record high. These are all economic measures that last Session of Parliament (Wales Bill (Programme)), as varied by should be welcomed across the country. We are building the Order of 30 April 2014 in that Session (Wales Bill (Programme) a stronger, sustainable and healthier economy.The autumn (No. 2)): statement set out a modest fiscal tightening and does Consideration of Lords Amendments not shy away from the challenges that remain. 1. Proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments shall Against that backdrop, we believe that aspiration (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion three hours after their commencement at today’s sitting. should be supported. For centuries it has spurred people on. The Bill backs those who aspire. I am proud to be 2. The Lords Amendments shall be considered in the following order: Nos. 1 to 13, 17 and 14 to 16. part of a Government who stand by aspiration and advocate it. This Bill reforms a fundamentally flawed Subsequent stages system and will help make the dream of owning a home 3. Any further Message from the Lords may be considered a reality, while cutting the tax bill for the overwhelming forthwith without any Question being put. majority of people affected by it. There is consensus on 4. The proceedings on any further Message from the Lords this, as we heard this afternoon, and I hope the House shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion will give the Bill a Second Reading. one hour after their commencement.—(Gavin Barwell.) Question put and agreed to. Question agreed to. Bill accordingly read a Second time. 923 10 DECEMBER 2014 Wales Bill 924

Wales Bill That showed that revenue from the 10p of income tax that would be devolved to Wales would net the Welsh Consideration of Lords amendments Government almost £2 billion in 2014-15—about nine Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): I times as much as stamp duty land tax and landfill tax must draw the House’s attention to the fact that financial combined. The figures show, in black and white, that privilege is involved in Lords amendments 1 to 17. If through the Bill we are providing the Assembly and the the House agrees to any of them, I shall ensure that the Welsh Government the tools to help grow the Welsh appropriate entry is made in the Journal. economy and take responsibility for raising a significant portion of the money that they spend. The removal of Clause 8 the lockstep makes it even easier for them to do that. I welcome the First Minister’s statement in the Senedd WELSH RATES OF INCOME TAX last week in which he confirmed for the first time that he would accept income tax devolution. That is indeed 3.21 pm progress. But—and there is always a “but”—once again The Secretary of State for Wales (Stephen Crabb): he hid behind the self-imposed “barrier” of funding. I I beg to move, That this House agrees with Lords have always said that the powers in the Bill should be as amendment 1. far-reaching and flexible as possible, to provide the Welsh Government with the tools to grow the Welsh Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): economy.Where we have committed to removing obstacles, With this we may take Lords amendments 2 to 13 however, the First Minister continues to erect them. He and 17. seems intent on denying the people of Wales their rightful say on whether income tax powers should be Stephen Crabb: Taken together, these amendments devolved, rejecting the opportunity to make the Welsh remove the so-called lockstep mechanism from the income Government more accountable to those who elect them tax provisions. By removing that mechanism so that the and refusing to accept responsibility for raising more of Bill reflects the Silk commission’s recommendation in the money that they spend. its part I report, the National Assembly for Wales will be able to set separate Welsh rates of income tax for each Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): The Secretary band. Subject to a referendum, all three income tax of State has outlined the advantages of the devolution rates would be reduced by 10p, and the Assembly would of those additional powers. Does he accept that giving decide a separate Welsh rate for each band. Those more tax-raising powers, and hence reducing other income Welsh rates would be added to the reduced UK rates. from central Government, exposes the Welsh Government The lockstep is probably second only to dual candidacy to greater fluctuations in revenue and makes the long-term as the most debated aspect of the Bill; it has been planning of services much more difficult? debated at great length in both this House and the other place. I have been clear throughout the passage of the Stephen Crabb: Part of devolving any tax—income Bill that I have been prepared to listen to all the arguments tax or any other fiscal power—is the creation of an incentive and perspectives and, if necessary, to take a different for the devolved Government. They get an extra tool approach on the lockstep. That is exactly what I have and an incentive, which they never had before, to grow done. Before I go any further, I would like again to place that portion of their own tax base. on the record my thanks to my right hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd West (Mr Jones) for his hard work Crucially, the devolution of income tax in Wales will and perseverance as Secretary of State for Wales in be done in line with what the Holtham commission guiding the Bill through its early stages. proposed for Scotland: the indexed deduction mechanism. That would effectively shield the Welsh Government from On Second Reading, the hon. Member for Rhondda UK-wide economic shocks but give them the incentive (Chris Bryant) made a point of counting the number of of holding on to the extra Welsh revenue that they were times my right hon. Friend used the word “accountability” able to generate. That works both ways: if Welsh income in describing the Bill; I believe that he stopped at 15. tax grows at a slower pace than that of the rest of the Frankly, though, my right hon. Friend could have used UK generally, there will be a loss, but that is exactly it 15 times more because the Bill was, and is, all about what provides the incentive for the Welsh Government accountability. By being made responsible for raising a to seek to grow the tax base. The issue is about economic proportion of the money that they spend, and allowing development. the people of Wales to judge them on how they spend it, the Assembly and the Welsh Government will become Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) more accountable to the electorate. (PC): My reading of the Office for Budget Responsibility In removing the lockstep, we are removing what was figures, published last week, was that the Welsh devolved widely seen to be a deterrent to the Welsh Government’s tax take is projected to increase by half a billion pounds accepting the devolution of income tax in Wales. Given over the next Parliament. If the powers are not fully the other financial provisions in the Bill and the full adopted by the Welsh Government, what would be the devolution of business rates, which, as my right hon. increase in the Welsh block during that period? Friend the Chancellor confirmed last week, will be implemented as planned next April, the Assembly would Stephen Crabb: I cannot provide a specific analysis in become responsible for raising around a quarter of the line with the question, but I agree with the general money that it spends. thrust of the hon. Gentleman’s point. There are distinct Hon. Members will be aware that last week the Office advantages, not only for the Welsh Government, but for for Budget Responsibility published a forecast of devolved businesses in Wales, which want the Welsh economy to tax revenues for Wales alongside the autumn statement. grow through the devolution of these taxes. 925 Wales Bill10 DECEMBER 2014 Wales Bill 926

Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con): Let me be the This is all about accountability.The former US President first to congratulate my right hon. Friend on his recognition Harry Truman famously had on his desk a card that overnight as the Welsh politician of the year. said, “The buck stops here.” I want to see a Welsh Does this debate not highlight one of the difficulties Government who stand up proudly and say, “The buck with devolution? People only really want half of it—they stops here” rather than “The buck is passed there.” That want the powers, but do not want the responsibilities. is what this Bill is all about: it creates that enhanced There is a statistic showing that a minority of people in accountability and enhanced responsibility. I repeat my Wales recognise that health policy is decided in Cardiff. Does challenge to the First Minister and the Welsh Government: that not illustrate the importance of giving responsibility as soon as this Bill receives Royal Assent, take steps to as well as devolving the powers themselves? call the referendum and do it as soon as possible. Let us seize the new tools and powers in this Bill with both hands and move forward. Stephen Crabb: My hon. Friend is exactly right and characteristically articulates his point better than Owen Smith: May I be the second Member of this anybody else in the House could. Devolution got House to congratulate the Secretary of State on becoming stuck. The settlement meant that the Welsh Government Welsh politician of the year? I think the whole House were essentially a spending Department with no real would agree that anybody who can move from describing responsibility for raising money—in fact, local authorities devolution as “constitutional vandalism” to being its or parish councils probably had more ability to raise most ardent supporter on the Government Benches revenue than the Welsh Government. The Bill is all deserves to have his political footwork duly recognised. about letting Welsh devolution take the next step forward, which is about fiscal devolution, giving responsibility These amendments to the Wales Bill best exemplify and enhancing accountability to create a more meaningful the damascene conversion that the Secretary of State relationship between the Welsh Government and the and his party have undergone on the devolution cause, people who elect Assembly Members and Welsh Ministers. because they relate to the devolution of income tax varying powers. Just as the Secretary of State used to denounce devolution and has now changed his mind, Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab): The Secretary of the Government have performed—he understated the State speaks of the incentives that these powers would extent of this—a handbrake U-turn on the lockstep. give to the Welsh Government. Will he be clear, as his predecessor was, as to how they ought to deploy those incentives? His predecessor thought that they should Stephen Crabb: For clarification, the shadow Secretary cut taxes in Wales to lower rates than in England. Does of State has accurately reported a quote of mine that he agree? appeared in an article in 2007, but he should do full justice to the article by adding that in it I set out exactly the same case for fiscal devolution that I have set out 3.30 pm today. I have been entirely consistent over a long period as to how fiscal devolution would enhance the devolution Stephen Crabb: It is entirely up to Welsh Ministers settlement for Wales. how they choose to use these tools. I am surprised by what the hon. Gentleman says, as I would expect him to be the last person to suggest that the Secretary of State Owen Smith: I am happy to agree that that is how the should be directing how these powers are used. I am a article went on, but it did indeed describe devolution as Conservative, and, to my core, my aspiration is always “constitutional vandalism”. I shall not forget that, and to see lower taxes rather than higher taxes. That is a nor should the country of Wales, for which the right difference in values between Government and Opposition hon. Gentleman is now Secretary of State. Members. We understand that lower taxes generally The Government have undertaken a U-turn on this. create the right circumstances for business growth and Let me refresh the House’s memory. Just a few months for growing wealth in an economy—and all Members, ago, the Secretary of State’s party wholly opposed the on both sides of the House, should be ambitious to see removal of the lockstep. In fact, his Department and more of that in Wales. the Treasury produced a substantive Command Paper, Cmd 14, which said: Sammy Wilson: Does the Secretary of State accept, “The Government is firm in its view that the income tax though, that unless we have the correct formula for structure is a key mechanism to redistribute wealth across the deciding what are national impacts and what are local whole of the UK, which is why the ‘progressivity’— impacts on the tax revenue raised, there is a great a word I think they made up— danger that Wales could suffer as a result of the fact “of this system is properly determined at the UK level. that fluctuations in income over the economic cycle The inclusion of the lock-step is also consistent with the tend to be much greater in the regions of the United principle that fiscal devolution should not benefit one part of the Kingdom than in the United Kingdom as a whole? UK to the detriment of another—this could occur if the Welsh Government is able to set a substantially lower rate for higher/ additional taxpayers without needing to change the basic rate”. Stephen Crabb: I do not dismiss the risk that the hon. Gentleman has outlined, but I think he exaggerates its That is what the Secretary of State seems to be suggesting impact on Wales. Alongside any perception of risk in —that we set lower rates in Wales than in England. relation to such fluctuations, there is a powerful opportunity We do not demur from the sentiment expressed in the for Wales to take greater control over wealth creation Command Paper, but nor do we greatly object to the inside the nation of Wales. That is an exciting opportunity Government changing their mind on this issue. That is for the Welsh people, and it represents the next stage of partly because they are reflecting the views of all parties devolution. in the National Assembly—it is appropriate and good 927 Wales Bill10 DECEMBER 2014 Wales Bill 928 that the Secretary of State has listened to them on this as he injudiciously puts it, is to force the Welsh people —and partly in the light of the Smith commission to raise taxes within their own borders. I do not espouse findings, which have shifted the debate significantly by such a dog-eat-dog, race-to-the-bottom version of Britain, proposing 100% devolution of income tax to Scotland. and nor should he. In fact, it could be argued that there is now a case for going further than is proposed in the Bill. It seems The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales unlikely to me that the people of Wales would find it (Alun Cairns): The phrase “begging bowl”, as used in acceptable to be asked in a referendum about having this context, originated with former First Minister Rhodri lesser tax varying powers than those on offer in Scotland. Morgan. Does the shadow Secretary of State completely Many of us in the House now recognise that perhaps dissociate himself from that? one of the mistakes of the previous Government was to allow asymmetry to develop between different parts of Owen Smith: It was deployed in an entirely different the UK in earlier rounds of devolution. That has driven context. The implication of the Secretary of State’s pressure for greater change in Wales to reflect changes pejorative use of the phrase was—I am paraphrasing, in other parts of the country. In fact, the case has now but this was broadly what he said in the rest of his speech clearly been made for a constitutional convention to —that the Welsh Government have not been responsible consider all the issues in the round and to try to derive a or accountable, but that they would become so for the lasting settlement acceptable to all parts of the UK. first time if tax powers were afforded to them. I have never The Government have not yet agreed to a constitutional accepted that the Welsh Government are unaccountable convention, and in its absence we must still consider the —they are as accountable as any elected Government—and Welsh Government’s rationale for taking up powers to I certainly do not subscribe to the view that Wales has raise taxes, if those powers were accepted at a referendum. ever held out a begging bowl.

Jonathan Edwards: Labour’s policy is to have a Stephen Crabb: I think that the shadow Secretary of constitutional convention. Is the hon. Gentleman saying State is getting slightly bogged down and has now that, in the event that we have a Labour UK Government, resorted to what he calls “paraphrasing” the speech I there will be a constitutional convention, and if so, made to the IWA,although he is actually misrepresenting would it halt the Smith process and the proposed Bill it entirely. My strong and clear point is that we have had for Scotland? 15 years of devolution in which the dominant theme of Welsh politics has been discussing how much money Owen Smith: No. I am saying that if there were a handed down through the block grant can be spent in Labour Government, we would have a constitutional Wales. The Bill and the new shift in devolution are convention to look at the whole of the UK. Therefore, about changing the nature of the debate so that it is not wherever we were in the Smith commission proposals, just about how much money we have handed down which will continue on their course, that would need to from London, but about raising money within Wales, be fed into the convention. A constitutional convention growing the economy in Wales and seeing Wales stand would not need to slow down or stop further devolution on its own two feet. to Scotland, but it would have to take cognisance of what was happening in Scotland. Owen Smith: The Secretary of State makes my point Whatever further changes are made in Wales should for me because I do not for a minute subscribe to the reflect what happens in Scotland, because the willingness notion that Wales has money handed down to it from to accept asymmetry has diminished in Wales and elsewhere. Westminster. That money reflects the taxes paid by Many of us feel that such asymmetry inherently leads, Welsh people, and more importantly, in a Union that is over time, to instability in the existing settlement. meant to be about our ability to share resources, pool risk and redistribute from wealthier to less wealthy In the absence of a convention, we must consider why parts, it reflects the morality and values of our country. the Government think that Wales should take up the Unfortunately, that morality and that set of values are new powers. I want to start not with Labour, but with being undermined by the Secretary of State’s description the current Government. Why do they now feel that the of the Union as one in which one part is a supplicant Labour Welsh Government should have an unfettered and another is handing down money. ability to raise taxes or to lower them to levels below those in England? The Secretary of State has made a Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend couple of soundbites or comments today to illustrate agree that we need to be wary of the politics of the why he thinks we should do so—he talked repeatedly hospital pass in Wales? I am always suspicious of Tories about accountability and responsibility—but I must say bearing gifts, to mix my metaphors, and I do not trust that none of them was quite as blunt and honest as the the Conservative party to defend the interests of my rationale he gave to the Institute of Welsh Affairs a few constituents. weeks ago. He said clearly that his objective in providing the tax varying powers was to Owen Smith: Nor do I and, more importantly, nor do “end the politics of the begging bowl in Wales”— the people of Wales—that is why they do not elect Tories [Interruption.] The Secretary of State says, “Absolutely,” in Wales. The very least we owe the Welsh people is that but I find that quite an offensive position for him to we consider extremely carefully the likely impact of these take. He should not describe Wales as, in effect, a radical changes to such a cornerstone of the redistributive supplicant, and nor should he suggest that we are a Union as taxation. They will have an impact on the scrounger or a shirker asking for handouts. It is not for potential prosperity and well-being of the Welsh people, him to suggest that the cure for the which is why, although Labour will not oppose the “politics of the begging bowl”, Lords amendments, as we have not opposed the Bill at 929 Wales Bill10 DECEMBER 2014 Wales Bill 930

[Owen Smith] 3.45 pm other stages, we will continue to be clear that we want Jonathan Evans: The hon. Gentleman should be a bit far more explanation from the Government about how cautious in his dismissal of the Conservative party, given and why they think the powers in question might be this week’s opinion polls. His argument is the complete deployed in Wales, and what the benefits will be for the antithesis of the position adopted by the Labour party in Welsh people. Scotland—late in the day, it must be said—which is to agree to the devolution of all tax raising powers to Scotland. Against that background, how is his argument Sammy Wilson: In light of the language about money in any way consistent with the position adopted north given to the devolved Administrations being “handed of the border? down”, rather than the result of tax revenues, and, as the hon. Gentleman said, the redistributive nature of Owen Smith: To paraphrase the infamous, notorious some fiscal policy, does he accept that the danger of the entry in the Encyclopaedia Britannica, it is not a question devolution of income tax is that it is an underhand of “For Wales, see England”, “For Scotland, see Wales”, attempt to ensure that less money goes to the devolved or “For Wales, see Scotland”. We have different countries Administrations, who will then be forced to raise money with different demographics, histories and relative tax through higher taxation in their own jurisdictions? takes, and on behalf of the Welsh people, we should sensibly take a position that reflects their best interest, Owen Smith: In a nutshell, the hon. Gentleman, who rather than talking an ideological perspective across the is expert in this matter, having been the Finance Minister board. On the prospects of the Tory party in Wales, I for his own devolved Administration, explains why we would be a little more hopeful that it might do well were are so concerned about the change. We are worried that it not for those such as the hon. Gentleman not fighting the Tories are eager to legislate in haste to foist on the their seats at the next election. We can read into that Welsh people the power to raise taxes in Wales. what we will. Our concerns are not just obstacles that the First Minister has placed in the way of the change, as the Jonathan Evans: It is the same as the right hon. Secretary of State suggested. They are reasoned questions Member for Neath (Mr Hain) about the nature of the powers that might be deployed and what their impact will be. We have been clear and Owen Smith: Indeed, but I do not suggest for a consistent in saying that the Government need to meet minute that there is any prospect of my right hon. three tests. It is not really for the Opposition to meet Friend being replaced by a Tory. Not now, not tomorrow, them, because we cannot. It is for the Government not ever. [Interruption.] It will be a cold day in hell proposing the changes to meet them, but it is disappointing before Neath turns Tory, and ditto Pontypridd. that they have not done so. The first test, as the First Minister made clear, is on the baseline for funding Let me return to my point about whether Wales will and the Barnett formula. That will need to be addressed be better off with these tax powers. As the hon. Member before the changes can ever be accepted in Wales, for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) said, we can look to because we will not recommend the devolution of income last week’s autumn statement to demonstrate that Welsh tax varying powers to Wales until we know that we will tax receipts are now £2 billion less than what was not be locking in a degree of underfunding. Secondly, planned by the Chancellor in 2010. That is our proportion we want to be clear that even if the Barnett question is of the £66 billion shortfall in tax receipts that is a result resolved, Wales will be better off. of our underperforming economy under this Conservative Government. Had these measures applied in 2010, they would have devolved to Wales about £1 billion of that Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): Although I shortfall. That decline makes a mockery of the notion share the Secretary of State’s impatience for the Assembly that such powers make the Welsh Government more Government to be speedy in addressing the issue once accountable, because a poor performance across the the Bill is passed, does the shadow Secretary of State board by the UK economy would not have been down agree that the Government need to assess the funding to the actions of the Welsh Government. That performance shortfall? One way that could be done would be if the would have been wholly down to a Tory Government in Government here and the Assembly Government again Westminster, and there is little that a smaller economy commissioned Gerald Holtham, for example, to assess and country such as Wales could have done to mitigate the level of underfunding before we move forward, that effect. which I agree with the Secretary of State that we should. The other thing that those numbers illustrate—again, the hon. Member for East Antrim effectively made this Owen Smith: That is not a bad idea. We have recently point—concerns the volatility of tax receipts across the heard Government statements about the reduction in UK. That volatility has led to a £66 billion shortfall, the Barnett gap, and one can imagine that there would and traditionally there are greater fluctuations in peripheral be such a reduction because public spending in England and regional parts of the UK economy than at the centre, has been curtailed so dramatically under this Government, and especially in London and the south-east. It difficult although we do not know that for certain. It is beholden to imagine how a country such as Wales with a small on the Treasury to provide evidence of the current gap, economy could manage the risk associated with that and it would be sensible for it to consider making greater volatility. That shows some of the benefit of the process independent, not least because I do not our being part of a wider Union, and it makes clear think that we would fully trust what it might produce the dangers and risks associated with disaggregating on its own. that Union. 931 Wales Bill10 DECEMBER 2014 Wales Bill 932

Jonathan Edwards: I watched with great interest the debate, and we are disappointed that they have not hon. Gentleman’s prophecy of doom on “Sunday Politics”. provided any real response to these questions throughout I have also read the OBR report and looked at all the the passage of the Bill. tables on the Welsh devolved figures, and they do not It will now be for the Welsh Labour Government to reflect his claims about a £1 billion loss. Indeed, the only consider what is best for the Welsh people. I have no table on this issue in the report suggests that the Welsh doubt that they will do so using Welsh Labour values devolved tax base will increase over the next five years and thinking about the benefits for the Welsh people, as by £500 million. The shortfall that he mentions might be well as about how we deliver equality and improvements as a result of the raising of income tax personal allowances to the lot of working people across the UK. that has been announced by the UK Government, but the Silk commission made it clear that the indexed Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): I am grateful deduction method for the partial tax raising arrangement for the opportunity to speak on the occasion of the in the Bill means that that would not come into effect. Is Bill’s return from the House of Lords in much improved not the hon. Gentleman guilty of scaremongering? form, if I may say so. In general, I welcome the Bill Project fear is alive and well in Wales once again. although I am concerned about some elements. Perhaps it is a Welsh trait that we can never completely agree on Owen Smith: No, it is project reasoned analysis of the things, and I want to touch on one issue where I am not numbers, and that project shows clearly a £66 billion in agreement. shortfall over the past five years and a projected further What I welcome in particular is the new reality of the shortfall across the UK over the next five years. We will Conservative and Liberal Democrat coalition shaping see a worse performance in terms of corporate and the process and future of devolution and driving forward, income tax receipts across the UK as a result of the low- leaving—if I may say so to the shadow Secretary of wage, deeply insecure, second-rate economy that the State—Labour languishing in its wake. He may describe Tory Government are building. Wales has been particularly that as a U-turn, but that is the reality today. I want to ill served by what has happened because of the additional make just one important point, which is very much a fragilities of our economy due to our industrial heritage personal view. I disagree with one specific aspect of the and the preponderance of low-wage jobs in Wales. Bill, but I would like to emphasise my overall support: it The reality is that—[Interruption.] The Secretary of is a very good and welcome Bill. State shakes his head, but he should think about this. I would like to put my point in context by painting He said earlier that the indexed method cited in Holtham some background to my personal journey in the devolution means that Wales would effectively be incentivised to debate. I was not in favour of the form of devolution on grow its tax base at a faster rate than England’s to enjoy offer in the referendum on 18 September 1997. It seemed uplifts under these powers. The truth is that over the to me to be creating a permanently unstable constitutional past five years the Welsh tax base has declined at a settlement. A settlement is the last thing it was. I attended faster rate than that of England, as the figure is 4.8% in the count in Llandrindod Wells leisure centre, watching Wales whereas the UK average is 4.2%. That means that the TV coverage as the decision of the voters of Wales Wales would have been worse off under the indexation came through and they decided in favour of establishing had the provisions applied in the last five years, which is a national assembly for Wales. I drove home knowing a further illustration of the need for the Government to that there was no going back. The people had spoken, undertake some proper, detailed analysis to let the Welsh albeit by a tiny margin of 0.6%. We were now facing an people know whether we would be better or worse off. entirely new question: how would devolution work in practice? I concluded immediately that the new Welsh Ian Lucas: In support of that point, is my hon. Friend Assembly would eventually become a law-making, tax- aware that in Wrexham median wages fell by 7.4% in the raising Parliament based in Wales. That has influenced last year under this Government? What encouragement my thinking on the issue ever since. I did not want to be that does give for increasing the tax base? dragged, kicking and screaming, and trying to refight the 1997 devolution referendum. I preferred to get Owen Smith: My hon. Friend reinforces my point. We ahead of the curve and identify where we were going to know that the Welsh economy has historic weaknesses get to, and move towards that in a positive and smooth because of the decline in heavy industry, and its distance way. That was not a change of mind, but a recognition from London and the powerhouse of the south-east. of a new reality. Those are well understood, but they are not reflected in the debate that we are having, which is largely politically Jonathan Evans: My hon. Friend, through his service motivated. in the Assembly, has been one of the individuals who Some in Wales argue that we do not need a referendum has encapsulated the position adopted by the Conservative to decide this matter, but we think that the Welsh people party. Although the party battled against establishing should have a debate and ultimately take the decision the Assembly in the first place, and although the margin on what would be a radical change. The debate cannot was only 4,000 in a million, nobody could claim other be driven by the Tory party’s desire to insulate itself than that my hon. Friend and the party in Wales have against the charge that it has reduced Welsh budgets by since not been dragged back to the previous debate, but 10%, which it has; or by the need to support the Tory have moved forward and sought to make a success of objective of reducing public spending to levels we have the devolution settlement. not seen since the 1930s, as was manifest last week; or even by the wish to sustain a partisan argument of Glyn Davies: Nowhere has that been more obvious English votes for English laws. All three of those rationales than in the contribution from those on the Front Bench feature as part of the Government’s motivation for this when we started today’s debate. 933 Wales Bill10 DECEMBER 2014 Wales Bill 934

[Glyn Davies] and before the Assembly elections in 2016, and to devolve income tax. We should put an end to Labour’s The Government of Wales Act 2006, introduced by easy ride in Wales and make the Welsh Government the Labour party, moved things forward quite a lot, as properly fiscally accountable to the Welsh people. Only did the 2011 referendum in relation to tax-raising powers. then will devolution grow up and reach its inevitable, The Wales Bill takes us further down the road to what I logical conclusion. consider to be the inevitable conclusion, but not far enough for me on tax levying responsibility. I will be Jonathan Edwards: It is a pleasure to make a short blunt about my view: it is a mistake that the Bill requires contribution to this debate, primarily to welcome these a referendum before devolving responsibility for levying Lords amendments, which mirror amendments that were part of income tax collection to the Welsh Government. tabled by Plaid Cymru when the Bill passed through the That is properly an issue for a general election. The Commons and which conveniently the three Westminster Welsh Government are not financially accountable to parties voted against at the time—they say a week is a the people of Wales until they are responsible for levying long time in politics, but we are only a few months down a degree of income tax. It is also my personal view that the line and there has been a complete change of financial accountability through responsibility for income position. In that regard, I congratulate the new Secretary tax is so fundamental to a proper, grown-up National of State on being far more progressive than his predecessor. Assembly for Wales and Welsh Government that we should not devolve extra responsibility until this principle Mr Mark Williams: The hon. Gentleman will remember is accepted—no financial accountability, no new powers. that there were exceptions. I was pleased to support The First Minister, and perhaps Labour Members Plaid Cymru’s lockstep amendment. I would not profess here on the Opposition Benches, do not want financial to be Mystic Meg or a trailblazer, but people listened to accountability. How convenient it is to bask in the credit the message put forward by him and others, and to their of every spend that the people of Wales approve of and credit, the Government changed. blame the UK Government for every difficult decision needed to bring order to the United Kingdom’s finances. Jonathan Edwards: I stand corrected. To be fair to the We see the First Minister in Wales scrabbling around hon. Gentleman, he has voted with us several times and for any reason he can come up with to avoid committing broken his party Whip. to a referendum. First, it was lockstep, which is removed The lockstep, of course, was a handcuff measure that by the Bill. Then it was the Barnett deficit, until it became would have made the powers in the Bill unusable—the clear that it is a rather smaller Barnett deficit than we only plus side was the extra borrowing capacity it would thought. I hear now that air passenger duty might be have given to the Welsh Government—and removing it another reason, and if that is resolved, there will be another creates greater flexibility, which is obviously to be welcomed. one. The reality is that Welsh Labour in Cardiff is desperate When we were debating the Bill in the Commons, to avoid financial accountability. It does not want to be however, I warned the Government that events in Scotland properly financially accountable to the Welsh people. would supersede it, and that has indeed been the case. The Union survived by a thread, and even then only 4pm following the famous vow promising home rule, devolution max or something as close to federalism as possible. Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): I am In that regard, the Smith commission was extremely following the hon. Gentleman’s argument and thinking disappointing. about what the Labour spokesman said. When the Silk Westminster has one chance left to save the Union, or proposals were being discussed, the First Minister of the British state as it is currently constituted, but the Wales was adamant he did not want air passenger duty Smith commission is playing into the hands of pro- devolved, but suddenly he has woken up and is desperately independence campaigners in Scotland. It nowhere near keen on it. It depends what day of the week we are in. delivers the powers promised in the vow, but it is far in advance of what the UK Government are offering to Glyn Davies: I would be more encouraged if I thought Wales in the Bill. The signature policy of the Smith the day of the week was the reason. I think it is a commission is 100% income tax devolution and the desperate attempt to find one more hurdle to prevent us ability of the Scottish Executive to set as many bands as from moving towards financial accountability. they want at whatever level they want. Indeed, my party During the passage of the Bill, I accepted it would put forward such an amendment during proceedings on include a commitment to a referendum on devolution the Wales Bill in the spring. of income tax levying powers. It was a recommendation of the all-party Silk commission, and in 1997 there was Ian Lucas: If the Smith commission is not in accordance a referendum on this issue in Scotland. In my view, however, with the vow that was given, why did the Scottish the Silk commission was wrong, and weak in its National party agree to it? recommendation on this point. Devolving income tax powers is not as big a change as is being made out, and Jonathan Edwards: The commission’s remit is not one it is entirely appropriate that it be decided at a general of its own choosing, but the SNP decided to act in the election; it does not need a referendum. If a Welsh Labour best interests of the country and move the process Government acted irresponsibility, which they might forward. Making out that the Smith commission proposals well do, they would quickly be turfed out of office. It is are what were included in the vow is not right. It was much easier to sit in blissful impotence, complaining. essentially home rule or devolution max, and on any I would like to see manifesto commitments by my definition of devo max, it means the full devolution of party, the Liberal Democrats and Plaid Cymru to revisit all powers apart from defence, foreign affairs, the monarchy this issue, perhaps in a Wales Bill early next Parliament and military policy. That is not included in the Smith 935 Wales Bill10 DECEMBER 2014 Wales Bill 936 commission proposals, which were less significant than Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): what was promised to the people of Scotland on the eve Order. I have no idea what is being talked about here. of the referendum. We are not discussing Swansea football club and we are As I was saying, the Smith commission is vastly more not discussing suits or weddings. The hon. Member for progressive in its trajectory of travel, offering 100% of Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) is income tax in comparison with the Wales Bill offer of supposed to be making an intervention on the tax-raising only a paltry income tax sharing arrangement—and even powers in the Wales Bill. Perhaps he could face me, so I then, only following a referendum many years down the could hear him; and, secondly, he could make sure that line. his intervention is in order. Jonathan Edwards: I am grateful to you, Madam Geraint Davies: Does the hon. Gentleman accept that Deputy Speaker, for saving me because my good friend if Wales has its own powers to set both a higher and a was distracting me on the basis of some spurious points. lower rate of tax and it chooses to reduce the higher rate Is it the position of the Labour party, should it form the so that a lot of millionaires move to Monmouthshire, next UK Government, that HS2 will be seen as an the overall tax take to the United Kingdom would be England-only project and not a UK-wide project, thus dramatically reduced because those people would all giving Wales its rightful consequentials of £2 billion, evade tax by moving to Wales? Does he think that is a which the hon. Gentleman mentioned? good thing to set in motion, and does he have any idea whether the Government have calculated the cost of Geraint Davies rose— that possibility? Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Member Jonathan Edwards: I am interested in this line of for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr is now trying to tax harmony across the UK being put forward by the tempt his friend—having claimed that his friend was Labour party. In Wales, of course, we had at the last tempting him—to go down a route that we are not count 22 local authorities all setting different rates of discussing today. We are debating Lords amendments council tax, and we are a key part of a single market on the tax-raising powers in the Wales Bill. Geraint across the European Union with its different members Davies now has the Floor. setting different tax rates. If Labour Members’ argument were to hold water, surely they would argue for tax Geraint Davies: Let me publicly assure Mrs Edwards harmonisation across the whole of local government in that the wedding was not spurious. I congratulate the Wales and across all member states of the European hon. Gentleman on both his point and his suit. It is a Union. It does not make much sense to me. very nice suit, in black and white. As I mentioned earlier, the differential rates pose Geraint Davies: Will the hon. Gentleman give way a real problem. There is a presumption that Wales will again? not lower the higher rate, but a very small number of people in Wales earn more than £150,000 a year. They Jonathan Edwards: I think I have answered the hon. currently pay 45%, and will pay 50% under a new Labour Gentleman’s point. Government. In theory, if a new Labour Government in Cardiff or Westminster—or any other Government, In conclusion, the general election is fast approaching, for that matter—reduced the top rate and a large number and I can assure this House and the people of Wales of people simply slipped across the border, they would that Plaid Cymru will fight that election on the basis be evading large amounts of tax. Obviously Wales that we will not allow our country to be treated as a would benefit, because more money would be coming second-class nation by the Westminster establishment. in, but for the overall tax-paying community, the amount would go down, and that is of legitimate concern. Geraint Davies: I come here with an open mind about I should like to hear from Ministers what evaluation these tax issues, but I must confess that I have major the Office for Budget Responsibility has made, producing concerns because I fear that the incentive for the different forecasts with different scenarios. My guess is Government to devolve tax powers is not one of freeing that it has made none, and that this legislation is being the nation of Wales to make its own decisions, but one rushed through in the hurried aftermath of what happened of distracting attention from the fact that Wales is in Scotland, so that Wales can be given something grossly underfunded both in revenue under the Barnett comparable to the quick settlement that was made formula by some £300 million and in capital receipts. If following electoral concerns in Scotland as we move we had our fair share of HS2, for instance, we would towards a general election. That is not the way in which have an extra £2 billion. to establish a new constitutional settlement and a settled financial regime. It is all very well the hon. Member for Jonathan Edwards: The hon. Gentleman and I are Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) saying both Swansea city supporters and I am grateful that he “You want harmony, we have difference, so it does not has been kind enough to allow me to intervene. matter what happens.” Such changes and differences bring pressures that are not settled, and which will be Geraint Davies: I can see that the hon. Gentleman is replicated in the future. wearing black and white. Air passenger duty has been mentioned. Other things being equal, if someone says “Can I set my own air Jonathan Edwards: This is my wedding suit, or rather passenger duty?”, the response might be “That’s brilliant: the suit I had with my wedding suit. It has led to much we can raise some money”. But what if Boris Johnson comment. [Interruption.] in London says “Hold on, there is a precedent here, 937 Wales Bill10 DECEMBER 2014 Wales Bill 938

[Geraint Davies] The Government are looking to give corporation tax flexibility for Northern Ireland because Ireland has got I want the money for Heathrow, and I am going to it. We could then follow through and say that perhaps lower air passenger duty”, which is what he has said Scotland should have it or perhaps somewhere else, and about stamp duty? We are talking about major shifts in we would end up again with a bidding war downwards the financial powers across the Union, which will unsettle where—as I have just mentioned for income tax—the the Union itself. Obviously we want a devolved settlement overall corporation tax-take for the UK would go down. that is stable rather than ever-changing, rather than the At a time when corporations are migrating based on setting in motion—by means of a quickstep to avoid research and development and access to Europe as short-term political advantage—of a system that will opposed to corporation tax rates, maybe this is the unravel into chaos. wrong route to follow, when taken together with income I know that there seems to be consensus across the tax. Floor of the House today. It is a case of “Don’t worry; we will have a referendum, and hopefully it will be all Mr Llwyd rose— right on the night.” What I have just described will probably not happen in Wales, because what prospect is there of our suddenly having five UKIP Assembly Members Geraint Davies: Please do not draw me on to anything and a regional list? Oh, there is such a prospect; well wide of the mark. there we are. What prospect is there of a newly emerging rainbow alliance—perhaps a very unfortunate rainbow Mr Llwyd: I have no intention of drawing the hon. with not a crock of gold but a crock of something much Gentleman wide of the mark. Experience shows that more unpleasant at the bottom of it, which will generate when corporation tax is lowered, it increases the take a cynical, unfair tax proposition that will lead us back because of increased inward investment. into the dark ages? That is possible. [Interruption.] Obviously there is agreement, as laughter leads the room. Geraint Davies: That is an interesting point, but it Sammy Wilson: I am glad to learn that the hon. does intrinsically depend on the elasticity of demand. Gentleman has now joined the Unionists in his heart, At a time when corporation tax is already the lowest in but does he accept that once we start to disaggregate the the G8, I suggest that inward investors are not looking fiscal arrangements for the United Kingdom, real to Britain to lower its corporation tax and making a constitutional issues become involved? The danger is marginal decision to invest. They are looking at the that the more fiscal powers are devolved to regional level of research and development and the prospects of administrations, the looser the Union will become. being part of Europe. One issue for inward investors is [Interruption.] the uncertainty of a referendum ending up with us as a sort of chip shop England floating out into obscurity Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): with UKIP and the Tories. Order. This is ridiculous. The debate is degenerating In my view, if we cut corporation tax again there will into some sort of Christmas party. Members are just be a net reduction in corporation tax revenues. On the shouting at each other. This is a proper debate on Lords income tax issue, I have an open mind. I am just throwing amendments. Members who have been in the House for forward some of the scenarios whereby we can lose out a long time know that heckling, or comments from a in England and in Wales and making a point, which I sedentary position, are not acceptable. Mr Davies, I ask the Minister to respond to in his summing up. should be really grateful if you would now focus on the I want to know what analysis has been done of the points in the Bill, so that we can hear the rest of your potential downside to the Exchequer of Wales reducing comments, followed by the Secretary of State’s conclusion. the top rate of tax and people migrating to Monmouth? I shall do my best to ensure that you are not interrupted, What are those numbers and what consideration has he or tempted to answer questions that are not asked made? My guess is that he has made no consideration, formally in the Chamber. and if so we should not be hurtling ahead in this way. 4.15 pm Stephen Crabb: I will be very brief as there is another Geraint Davies: Thank you for that clarification, Madam set of Lords amendments that we need to debate. Deputy Speaker. We spent most of this debate not debating the specifics The focus of this debate is the differential between of the Lords amendments around the removal of the the lower and the higher rates—how that moves up and lockstep. Most of the time has been spent listening to down and squeezes in and out, and what the implications the weight of arguments, largely from Labour Members, of it are. In terms of the last intervention, the implications against fiscal devolution full-stop. So we end the are that if that gives rise to great differences between the parliamentary passage of the Wales Bill exactly where two rates across the border—or, indeed, across the we started: with three parties in this Chamber recognising Scottish or Northern Ireland border—it will generate the potential benefits to Wales of devolving a portion of distortions, not just on the border itself, but in terms of fiscal powers—we are not talking about a full step down investment decisions, where people choose to live and the road of full fiscal devolution, but a strong step forward work, and social security arrangements—whether they —and one party resolutely digging in, trying to pretend are devolved or not. It will extend beyond personal that there is some kind of plot or conspiracy; we have taxation because corporations coming in will bear in had all those words and that language used before. mind what they think their workers are going to be paying. As has been mentioned, therefore, corporation tax is part of that broader conversation. Mr Llwyd: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? 939 Wales Bill10 DECEMBER 2014 Wales Bill 940

Stephen Crabb: I will give way to the right hon. Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): The Minister has Gentleman, who was rightly recognised last year as the mentioned the registration of young voters in Scotland. MP of the year. What was done there to get the registration rates so high was great. Is he aware that the registration rate for Mr Llwyd: And I am intervening on a Member of 18-year-olds in England and Wales is as low as 55%, so even higher status. if this provision goes ahead, we will really have to work Is it not interesting that the excuse being put forward hard to get the registration rate up? by those on the Labour Front Bench is that they need to sort out Barnett? For the last 20 years or so I have been Alun Cairns: The hon. Gentleman makes an important arguing about the need to sort out Barnett when the point. The Bill contains measures to encourage the Labour party denied that there was a problem. Assembly to engage with younger people and encourage them to register, should it wish to extend the franchise Stephen Crabb: The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely in the referendum on income tax-varying powers. right. We end the parliamentary passage of the Bill exactly as we began it, with Labour trying to place even Chris Ruane: Has the Minister heard of an organisation more hurdles in the way of devolving a portion of called Bite the Ballot? It can go into sixth forms and income tax. You would have to be Colin Jackson to register 100% of the students at a cost of only 25p per clear all the hurdles that the Opposition are trying to set registration. Does he think that the Assembly—and, up. indeed, the UK Government—should be working closely with organisations such as Bite the Ballot to get the Ian Lucas: Will the Minister give way? registration rate up? Stephen Crabb: I will not, because there is another group of Lords amendments to discuss. Alun Cairns: The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. I am not familiar with that organisation, so it I should like to finish by paying particular tribute to would not be right for me to endorse its activities at this the contribution made by my hon. Friend the Member stage. Clearly, however, any activity that encourages for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies). He set out some people who are eligible to vote to do so is broadly powerful arguments, and has done so from a position of positive, and I would encourage the Welsh Government, real credibility, having been an Assembly Member. He has the Assembly and the UK Administration to engage been ahead of the curve on many occasions in recognising with a range of organisations and bodies to support the strategic direction that Welsh devolution needs to that aim further. go in and the benefits that can be accrued to Wales by taking sensible, moderate and pragmatic steps forward. On that note, I shall bring my remarks to a close. Jonathan Edwards: The Minister is right to say that Lords amendment 1 agreed to, with Commons financial the referendum in Scotland reinvigorated the political privilege waived. process there, but that is because it was on a definitive issue. The proposed referendum for Wales is on a very Lords amendments 2 to 13 and 17 agreed to, with technical point—the partial income tax arrangement—and Commons financial privilege waived. is it not a danger that that is hardly going to excite the masses? Does that indicate that if we are to have another referendum in Wales, it has to be on something meaningful Clause 13 which is going radically to alter the devolution settlement?

PROPOSAL FOR REFERENDUM BY ASSEMBLY Alun Cairns: We spent the earlier part of this debate Alun Cairns: I beg to move, That this House agrees discussing Lords amendments relating to the referendum, with Lords amendment 14. and I believed that the hon. Gentleman, in his usual positive way, as well as Liberal Democrat and Conservative Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): Members, thought that the referendum on income tax With this it will be convenient to consider Lords varying powers was definitive. It gives a great opportunity amendments 15 and 16. for political parties to sell the great prospect that lower taxes could bring to Wales, and the resulting wealth-creating Alun Cairns: These amendments provide that, when a opportunities. resolution to hold a referendum on income tax powers is moved in the National Assembly for Wales, the Assembly Jonathan Edwards: My point is that if we are to have must state as part of the resolution whether the voting a referendum, it needs to be on a point of principle, and age for that referendum is to be 16 or 18. During the the principle of fiscal devolution has been conceded Bill’s passage through the other place, a number of already in the Wales Bill with the devolution of the peers sought to extend the franchise in Wales to 16 and minor taxes. 17-year-olds. They highlighted the fact that young people in Scotland had been able to vote in the independence Alun Cairns: I am not sure where this is going, but I referendum, but young people in Wales would not be accept that the engagement of young people is exceptionally able to vote in a referendum on income tax powers. I important. The purpose of this Lords amendment is to pay tribute to the younger voters of Scotland who devolve the power for the referendum to the Welsh actively registered and voted in that referendum. I know Assembly, and it can therefore make judgments accordingly. that many people felt that the involvement of 16 and 17-year-olds helped to reinvigorate the political process Glyn Davies: I questioned the need for a referendum. and the political parties, and I understand why the Bill Although we accept that it is part of the Bill, does the has reignited the debate on these issues. Minister think there may be a possibility at some future 941 Wales Bill10 DECEMBER 2014 Wales Bill 942

[Glyn Davies] State took office, he said that he wanted to be pragmatic and to listen to the views of the people. Part of that stage of getting to a position where we can proceed with pragmatism is recognising the impact that the Scotland this income tax raising power, despite Labour’s opposition, referendum had on politics across the whole of the by including it in a general election manifesto and not United Kingdom. having a referendum? Alun Cairns: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that, 4.30 pm and I pay tribute to him for his speech. The debate on Huw Irranca-Davies: To assist the debate, may I use devolution is moving quickly and the referendum in the example of a 96-year-old person whom I met on Scotland has changed the debate across the whole of Sunday? He was receiving the Ushakov medal for his the UK. It is up to each political party to make its work on the Arctic convoys. At the age of 14, he enlisted judgment. It is almost certain that there will be a Wales with the merchant navy and spent six months training Bill in the next Parliament, whoever is in government. on HMS Warspite and then sailed up the Amazon nine There will be an opportunity for him to make the case months later. He was certainly ready to vote, and so at that stage, and for each political party to make the were the students who met me in Parliament last week case leading up to the election and include an element to discuss the importance of voting at the age of 16 and relating to that in its manifesto. 17. Let us just bite the bullet and do it.

Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): On the amendment Alun Cairns: I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman’s that allows the Assembly to decide on the franchise for constituents and to the two constituents in my own the referendum on tax powers, does the Minister agree constituency who have recently received medals from that allowing 16 and 17-year-olds to vote on the tax the Russian Government. None the less, he makes a point issue and then not allowing them to vote in a subsequent that goes well beyond the scope of the Bill, and that will Assembly election would send a very odd message about be part of an important debate in the future. He will be trust in young people? able to make his point again when the time comes. Alun Cairns: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his intervention, but I do not agree with him on that specific Mr Mark Williams: How are we to tell constituents point. The Wales Bill provides the opportunity for the that we are, on the one hand, allowing 16 and 17-year-olds Assembly to introduce a referendum on tax varying to vote, but on the other, denying them the franchise to powers, to the degree that we have already considered. vote in general, local or Assembly elections? How would That will extend the franchise specifically in this area. It the Minister explain that inconsistency? I suspect that learns the lessons from Scotland and creates the opportunity after this amendment, which I very much welcome, we for us to reinvigorate young people in this area. However, will need some answers to that question. the debate on the franchise in general for other elections is very different; there is no general consensus on that Alun Cairns: I suggest that the age of majority is across all parties in the House and it is a constitutional different for different processes across the United Kingdom. matter that will be ongoing. It is not part of this Bill, It is a major constitutional change to extend the franchise but I have no doubt that it will form part of future for all elections. The scope of this Bill is specific about debates that many parties will want to have. extending powers to the Welsh Assembly, and it is for the Assembly to decide. Who knows, the Welsh Assembly Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): Further to the may not decide to extend the franchise to younger voters. points made by the hon. Members for Carmarthen East It is up to it to decide on a referendum for income tax and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) and for Montgomeryshire varying powers in Wales. That is the answer that the (Glyn Davies), extending the suffrage down to 16 and hon. Gentleman might wish to give to his constituents. 17-year-olds could indeed be part of a manifesto This measure is not about extending the franchise to commitment. Such an approach might avoid the problem 16-year-olds, but about granting the power and the of the referendum being on a narrow issue to do with opportunity for the Assembly to decide on that basis. tax and of this measure being in one Wales Bill, and it would replicate the commitment made by the leader of Geraint Davies: It is one thing to say that there is a the Labour party this week to do just that. strong case for people of 16 to have a vote as they have a general knowledge of politics in the round and can Alun Cairns: The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting make an informed decision, but the argument we are point, but that is a major constitutional change covering trying to make is whether young voters who have never lots of other political areas and it is well beyond the voted can suddenly grasp the technicalities of setting scope of this Bill. I am seeking to address amendments different rates at different levels and what that implies. that will allow the Assembly to make progress in this That is not much of an encouragement to enter the area, should it wish to do so. It is up to the Assembly to world of democracy. It is a highly technical issue. Will make its own decisions. This provision devolves the the Minister now at least serve notice on the fact that he power for it to extend the franchise to 16 and 17-year-olds. will be championing a general franchise for people of However, it is important to recognise that there is no 16 to vote in future elections? consensus across parties on the issue of changing the franchise to allow 16 and 17-year-olds to vote in elections Alun Cairns: I think the hon. Gentleman is in general. underestimating the capacity of young people to grasp In the specific case of the income tax referendum, the technicalities. I have far more confidence in younger Government have listened to those who have called on people to be able to consider such matters. He makes an them to look afresh at the issue. When the Secretary of important point, but it could easily be made in another 943 Wales Bill10 DECEMBER 2014 Wales Bill 944 debate. This is about extending the power to the Assembly cause an income tax referendum to be held in Wales, to decide, and not about extending the franchise to that resolution must state whether the voting age at young people per se. We are simply devolving the power. such a referendum is to be 16 or 18. The Assembly has had a vote on extending the franchise I have long been a supporter of votes at 16, on which to younger voters, and there was a majority in favour of Labour Members have provided a strong lead. I pay it, but when it comes to make its own choice specifically tribute particularly to Julie Morgan, a former MP and on a matter such as this, who knows what will ultimately now Assembly Member for Cardiff North, and to my come forward. hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North As a result, on Third Reading in the other place we (Diana Johnson) for their campaigning on the issue. We tabled amendments to allow the Assembly to decide saw the success of allowing 16 and 17-year-olds to take whether 16 and 17-year-olds should be able to vote in part in the Scottish independence referendum. Following an income tax referendum. As the volume of interventions the Smith commission, responsibility for electoral matters we have heard indicates, this is the first opportunity the is on the cards to be devolved to Scotland. My right House has had to consider the matter, and I look hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster North (Edward forward to hearing the contributions that are to follow. Miliband), the leader of the Labour party, has urged It is the Assembly that will decide when to call a the UK Government to ensure that that happens in referendum, and it is right that it should decide who can time for the 2016 elections to the Scottish Parliament. vote in it. The amendment puts that decision in the Control over electoral arrangements should likewise be hands of the Assembly, just as it was put in the hands of devolved to Wales and Northern Ireland. the Scottish Parliament for September’s referendum. The Lords amendments reflect our belief that electoral These amendments also provide that if the Assembly arrangements should be devolved to Wales and our resolves that the voting age is to be lowered to 16, the commitment to extending the franchise for all elections resulting order to be laid by the Secretary of State to 16 and 17-year-olds. Furthermore, this week my right would also provide for the creation of a register of hon. Friend the leader of the Labour party made it young voters. That register would include those who absolutely clear that a future Labour Government would will have attained the age of 16 on the date of the legislate to lower the voting age to 16, and it would be income tax referendum and those age 17 who are not interesting to hear the Minister’s position is that issue. already listed on the register of local government electors We would also legislate to devolve electoral arrangements as an attainer—that is, a 17-year-old who will turn 18 to the Welsh Assembly. before the next electoral register is published. The important point is that those who have attained the age of 16 on Jonathan Edwards: Plaid Cymru tabled amendments the date of the poll would be eligible to vote in an similar to those that the hon. Lady mentions during the income tax referendum if they appear on either the Bill’s passage through this House, but I do not recall register of young voters or the register of local government Labour supporting us. Has there been a sea change in electors. Labour party policy since then? I should also be clear about what these amendments do not do. They do not devolve competence over the Nia Griffith: I have made it clear what our policies wider franchise to the Assembly, as I have previously are. stated, and they do not allow the Assembly to decide With the advent of individual voter registration and the voting age for any poll other than that for an income the worry that many people, including many young tax referendum. The franchise for elections in Wales voters, will fail to register under the new rules, which remains solely within the power of this Parliament. I was a point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for know that there are strongly held views on both sides of Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane), lowering the voting— the House about reducing the voting age—we heard some of them earlier. I want to reassure hon. Members Chris Ruane: A good way of ensuring that there is who might be concerned that these amendments set a 100% registration of young people, instead of the current precedent for future elections that they do not. It is registration rate of 55%, would be if, at the same time as important to underline that they do not set a precedent. they are issued with a national insurance number at the They relate specifically to an income tax referendum in age of fifteen and three quarters, they were automatically Wales, and to no other poll. They give the Assembly a registered to vote. choice for that referendum. If and when a trigger vote is held, it would be for the Assembly to decide whether the Nia Griffith: My hon. Friend makes a good point. voting age will be 16 or 18. I therefore ask the House to Lowering the voting age to 16 could provide an impetus support these amendments. for registration campaigns in schools, as all young people are in compulsory education until 16. Such campaigns Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): I am pleased to put on would be another opportunity to encourage young people record Labour’s support for the Lords amendments to to register to vote before their 16th birthday, and most clause 13 and schedule 1, which will enable the Welsh would have at least one opportunity to use their vote Government to set a voting age of 16 in a future before leaving home for university or job opportunities referendum on income tax powers. Labour believes that elsewhere. the National Assembly for Wales should have responsibility for its own electoral arrangements. Lords amendment 14 Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): Does will insert a new subsection (1A) into clause 13 to the hon. Lady agree that as well as a drive to get provide that if the First Minister or a Welsh Minister registration as high as possible, efforts should be made moves a resolution in the Assembly under clause 13(1)(a) to teach civics in schools to let pupils know the importance requesting that an order be made under clause 12 to of the vote and the issues that they will be voting on? 945 Wales Bill10 DECEMBER 2014 Wales Bill 946

Nia Griffith: Indeed. The Welsh Government have young people to have a general right to vote in all elections made significant progress on that matter with the Welsh —general elections, Assembly elections, local elections baccalaureate. and other referendums. I share the concern of the hon. Member for Brecon Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab): Does my and Radnorshire (Roger Williams), however, as the hon. Friend agree that there is a fundamental inconsistency move needs to be accompanied by civic education. My in the Government’s position? I totally agree with their hon. Friend the Member for Swansea West (Geraint wish to devolve responsibility to the Welsh Assembly on Davies) has a degree in economics, but even the great matters to do with the referendum, but why cannot there Member himself does not quite understand everything be the same devolution in respect of the age at which about the subject. people vote in Welsh Assembly elections? It is nothing short of patronising to 16 and 17-year-olds to say, “You might be able to vote in a referendum, but not in Geraint Davies: On a point of information, I do. constituency or regional-based Assembly elections.” It makes no sense. Chris Ruane: Thatisasmaybe. Nia Griffith: Perhaps the Minister will clarify that It is incumbent on us and the National Assembly for later. Wales to make sure that, if young people aged 16, 17 or 18 are to have the right to vote in the referendum, they In my long experience as a teacher, I always found have the relevant education, background and knowledge. that young people are ready to engage in discussion on a range of issues, and I have every confidence that 16 and 17-year-olds can be as well informed as other Mr Llwyd: I agree with the hon. Gentleman’s argument. adults in respect of voting options. They have access to Surely part of our function is to ensure that we have an a far wider range of media and sources of information informed debate, and assisting people as they come to a than back in 1969, when the voting age was last lowered. conclusion about how to vote is part of our function as Indeed, when many of us were at school, our only well, is it not? access to current affairs came through being encouraged to read the daily papers in the school library. Chris Ruane: I agree entirely, but that should not be Sixteen-year-olds can join the armed forces and, with left to a short campaign two or three weeks before a parental consent, get married. Many of them are active referendum; it should be as of right. in the world of work, whether full or part time, and are I was a teacher for 15 years, admittedly in a primary therefore subject to employment law and health and school rather than a secondary one. We should try to safety law, or the lack thereof. They are subject to the teach these issues at a level that young people will law on national insurance contributions and income understand. By the age of 18, someone has the right to tax. It is wholly appropriate that the Bill should allow have a mortgage. We need to make sure that young the Welsh Government to state in a resolution to cause people are educated, in ways they understand, about an income tax referendum whether the age for qualifying mortgage rates, interest rates and student loans. to vote in that referendum should be 18 or 16. We support the Lords amendments. Stephen Crabb: I know that the hon. Gentleman is in Geraint Davies: In general, for the reasons that we no way belittling primary school children, but I should have just heard, I am in favour of reducing the voting say that I have faced some of my most challenging age to 16, both because of the increased awareness of questions when visiting primary schools, not least about young people and because the focus of budgetary control the Chartist movement when I visited a Newport primary and discussion in the parliamentary arena will shift school. more towards education and investment in our future. My concern about this move in isolation, with 16-year-olds Chris Ruane: The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely being allowed to vote on the highly technical issue of right. I used to delegate the collection of the orange marginal tax rates and thresholds, is that the turnout in squash money to the brightest child in the class, whose the referendum will be low, and the turnout of 16 to money-counting skills were greater than mine. 18-year-olds will be extremely low and may discredit We need to educate young people, especially about some of the excellent arguments that have been made student loans and VAT, so that when they put their X in for reducing the voting age to 16. I wonder what efforts the box, they are making an informed decision. They the Government will make to educate these prospective need to know the crucial difference between progressive voters so that they have an informed view about this and regressive taxes. technical issue. I was fortunate enough to study economics at university—obviously I understand all these issues—but Mr Mark Williams: Like the hon. Gentleman, I used a lot of people aged 16 to 18 will not have had that benefit. to teach primary school children. He will be aware of The issues are difficult. I support the move in general, the sense of injustice that primary school children and but I am concerned that the turnout will be low, so I older children will feel. The biggest injustice does not wonder what the Government will do about that. relate to not being educated on these matters, but to being denied a vote in one election and then allowed a vote in another. Yes, we welcome what the Government 4.45 pm have done—I pay tribute to Lord Tyler and Lord Thomas Chris Ruane: I welcome the Government’s proposals of Gresford in the other place who pushed the issue to give 16 to 18-year-olds a vote in a referendum on forward—but is not the biggest injustice the inconsistency income tax raising powers. I would also like those between different elections? 947 Wales Bill10 DECEMBER 2014 Wales Bill 948

Chris Ruane: I agree entirely. I would prefer it if The introduction of voting rights for young people at young people were able to vote in all elections. My hon. the age of 16 for the income tax raising powers referendum Friend the Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) said that is a good idea. We should be very wary of what the he was wary of Tories bringing gifts, but I welcome this Electoral Commission has done—or has not done—in gift from them to 16 and 17-year-olds, especially as such the past if we are to make sure that these young people gifts do not usually come from their party. are registered. The Electoral Commission should be The move represents a foot in the door for opening contacting electoral registration officers in the 22 authorities up voting rights to 16 to 18-year-olds in other elections. in Wales to make sure that they know how to register The small precedent of voting in one referendum has these young people. It should be regularly monitoring been set. A path has been paved ready, I hope, for when best practice from around the UK—indeed, around the Labour gets in in May, and we can point to this as a world—and relaying that information to the Welsh precedent and say, “If it’s been done for a referendum, it Government in Cardiff to make sure that best practice can be done for all other votes.” is pursued in Wales for the purposes of registration for the referendum. We need to look particularly carefully at the registration of 16 to 18-year-olds, as that will have to start quite early Best practice in registering young people exists in on. Using the precedent that 18-year-olds can be registered Northern Ireland. The EROs in Northern Ireland are to vote at the age of 16, perhaps these young people proactive in going out to schools to register young people. should be registered at the age of 14. As I said earlier, a We should be doing that, but the Electoral Commission golden opportunity comes when a young person’s national has refused to replicate in the rest of the UK what is insurance number is issued at the age of 15 and three now done in Northern Ireland. quarters. I have raised this point in parliamentary questions. The Electoral Commission has failed to ensure that Currently a young person can be registered at 16. Could electoral registration officers obey the law. Statutorily, not that be taken back three months to 15 and three they must knock on the door of non-responders. If a quarters, when their national insurance number is issued? 16-year-old was not registered to vote for the referendum, With the introduction of individual electoral registration, for example, the local ERO would have to go round, a person’s national insurance number is required when knock on the door and register that 16-year-old. Even they fill in the registration form. Why not arrange to though that requirement has been set out in law for have that form filled in on the day when the elector gets many years, there has not been a single prosecution of their national insurance number? That would make an ERO who has broken the law. One ERO in Devon eminent sense, and it would also get over the fact that has broken the law by not conducting a door-to-door only 55% of 18-year-olds are registered, as I said earlier, canvass for five years on the trot, but the Electoral and only 44% of them vote. Only 25% of young people Commission has done nothing about it. take part in the democratic process. We should make sure that the Electoral Commission That has consequences for young people as individuals warns EROs in Wales about that. We do have best and for the whole of society. Let me give a practical practice in Wales. My own electoral registration officer, example. One of the first steps the coalition Government Gareth Evans, is one of best performing EROs in the took was to increase student loans from £3,000 a year whole country, but not all officers are as good as him, to £9,000 a year, so, for an average student, the total and we need to make sure that they all perform at the rose from £9,000 to £27,000. Would they have taken standards of the best so that young people are registered. such measures against pensioners, whose registration The Electoral Commission has failed miserably to rates are 96% and whose voting rates are 86%? The fact use the most effective and efficient third-party organisations, that young people are not registered and voting means such as Bite the Ballot, to get young people on to the that political parties—all political parties—will bear electoral register. Bite the Ballot can register young that in mind when they are drawing up their policies. It people for as little as 25p per registration, but when one is important that we have maximum registration from the compares the cost of the Electoral Commission’s advertising outset for 16-year-old who will have the right to vote. campaign with the number of registration forms downloaded from the internet, it spent £80 per registration Mr Llwyd: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. Does he in 2005. The commission should therefore work with agree that when we come to discuss things economic EROs in Wales, as well as with Bite the Ballot, to with young people who may not be highly qualified, it is encourage them to ensure that 16-year-olds are registered best to avoid phrases like “post-neo-classical endogenous from the outset. growth theory”? This is a great opportunity, and I congratulate both elements of the coalition, especially the Conservatives. Geraint Davies: That was what I learned in school. It is not in their nature to extend the vote. They are rightly fearful of young people, which is perhaps why Chris Ruane: My hon. Friend is taking issue with the they are not talking much about the lack of registration right hon. Gentleman. There is a place for such terminology at national level. Registration rates in some wards in in some debates, but perhaps not those with 16-year-olds. student areas of big university cities such as Manchester and Liverpool are as low as 20% following the move The issue of civics should go beyond finance and how over to IER. I congratulate everyone, including my we organise our economy. The finances of a country Front-Bench colleagues, and I hope that we will learn can impinge on wider issues such as racism, sexism and from this opportunity and go on to extend to 16 to consumerism. There are threats from parties out there 18-year-olds the right to vote in all elections. that are against the fabric of our British society. They want to promote the issue of race. It is fine if they want Alun Cairns: I pay tribute to the hon. Member for to discuss that, but it has to be done with intelligence, Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) for the positive way in not bigotry. which he has ended this debate. He contributed to it by 949 Wales Bill 10 DECEMBER 2014 950

[Alun Cairns] by all parties. It is important that it is recognised in that way, rather than in the churlish way in which it has been highlighting the need for young people to be educated welcomed in some quarters. I take the hon. Gentleman’s about the process, and the need for us to engage with point positively, and the Cabinet Office will have heard the activities of electoral registration officers, which his suggestion and the contributions of other Members, were mentioned by my hon. Friends the Members for including the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd. Those Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) and for points go well beyond the scope of the Lords amendments, Ceredigion (Mr Williams). but they have been well made and received in a positive The Lords amendments are intended to be positive. way, which is how the debate should finish. They will extend the powers of the Assembly. They The Bill has passed through both Houses, and we all provide greater powers than those in the original Bill, need to recognise that it represents a major shift in and this is the first time that we have had the opportunity powers and that there is a great opportunity for Wales, to discuss them. At some stages of the debate, I felt that the Assembly and the Welsh Government if they use although all parties are in favour of those powers, they those powers productively and enthusiastically. I pay were being welcomed almost through gritted teeth. I am tribute to the Secretary of State for how he has handled therefore grateful to the hon. Member for Vale of the Bill since taking office, but also to his predecessor, Clwyd for finishing on a positive note. my right hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd West (Mr Some hon. Members said that they have campaigned Jones), for his contribution in steering the Bill through for votes at 16 for a very long time, but if there was such the House, and to Baroness Randerson for her activities support, the extension of the vote could have been done in the other place. I also pay tribute to the officials and during the 13 years of the previous Labour Administration. everyone else who has worked on the Bill, particularly The hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr in the Wales Office. I hope that the House will support (Jonathan Edwards) pointed out that he tabled amendments the Lords amendments. at the time they were certainly not accepted by Labour. Lords amendment 14 agreed to, with Commons financial However, I want to be positive. privilege waived. Lords amendments 15 and 16 agreed to, with Commons Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): It is a shame that financial privilege waived. the Minister is speaking on a sour note. May I ask him to bear in mind the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) made about Business without Debate encouraging electoral registration officers and others to register young people at age 15, when they get their national insurance number? That seems a good idea, so will the Minister contact his colleagues in the Cabinet DELEGATED LEGISLATION Office to encourage it? It would be administratively neat Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing and I suspect that, as my hon. Friend suggested, it would Order No. 118(6)), help boost voter registration among young people, which has to be a good thing. We should have this debate in that positive way rather than go in a sour direction, as CONSTITUTIONAL LAW the Minister did. That the draft Revenue Scotland and Tax Powers Act 2014 (Consequential Provisions and Modifications) Order 2014, which Alun Cairns: I do not intend to be sour in any way, was laid before this House on 13 October, be approved.— shape or form. I want to be positive, because the Bill (Mr Wallace.) will extend the powers of the Assembly and is welcomed Question agreed to. 951 10 DECEMBER 2014 Prison Officers (Work-related Stress) 952

Prison Officers (Work-related Stress) mindfulness which, despite elements of contention, has become extremely popular in its application in working Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House environments. I will suggest to the Minister that we do now adjourn.—(Mr Wallace.) need a meeting to talk about the strategy from here on in, and one provision we could include in that is the 5.3 pm offer of services such as mindfulness in the sector, which could prove extremely effective. John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): The background to the debate is the publication last month Chris Ruane: A new prison is to be built in Wrexham of a report on work-related stress and the well-being of and the chief executive of North Wales health authority prison officers. It was commissioned by the Prison is predisposed towards mindfulness. Does my hon. Friend Officers Association because of the union’s ongoing think that teaching mindfulness to prisoners and prison serious concerns about the health of its members, especially officers at that new prison from the outset would be a in light of the Government’s policy of increasing the good experiment and pilot scheme for mindfulness in retirement age to 68 for prison officers and the startling prisons? cuts that have taken place. The report was undertaken by three experts in the John McDonnell: Given our concerns about that field of occupational health, and particularly occupational prison—a Titan prison that will house a larger number psychology, at the university of Bedfordshire. I pay tribute of prisoners than any other prison has housed—and to those researchers for their assiduous work. They were given our concerns about the scale of such a prison and Dr Gail Kinman, who is professor of occupational health the problems that will result from it, I think mindfulness psychology; Dr Andrew Clements, a lecturer in occupational would be an important strategy that should be built in psychology; and, assisting them, Jacqui Hart, a PhD from the beginning. candidate and researcher. All of them are appropriately As I was saying, the health and safety questionnaire qualified and have high reputations in the field. was developed in consultation with employers and union Let me take the House through some of the findings representatives. It is now used widely across the public of the research, which many of us have found shocking and private sectors and is based on a self-report to say the least. The Health and Safety Executive establishes questionnaire. It is a standard procedure used by academics benchmarks to measure and monitor work-related stress who in this case established a survey online. They received among employees. Those benchmarks have been developed 1,682 respondents, which is as large as any national into a framework after extensive consultation with opinion poll, and it was a fairly representative sample. employers and the unions, and they are agreed standards by which organisations employing staff can assess the Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): I work-related stress experienced by those staff. congratulate the hon. Gentleman warmly on obtaining There are seven elements of work activity—described this Adjournment debate. The Prison Service is little as the psycho-social hazards—and they are the most short of being in crisis. Since 2010, prison officer numbers critical predictions of employee well-being. They relate have been cut by 41%, but the prison population has first to the demands of the job—the work load, pace, gone up. The ratio of prison officers to prisoners has and hours of work—and to control of work, which is never been so bad, and that is a danger. Both the hon. the way a person can control their working environment. Gentleman and I are officers of the Justice Unions There is also management support, peer support—the help Parliamentary Group, and I hope that the Minister will workers receive from their colleagues—and relationships, agree to meet us to discuss this important issue. which includes interpersonal relationships, interpersonal conflicts and bullying. The benchmarks also include the John McDonnell: I know that the Minister cares measurement of the role and whether the job requirements about this issue, and I alerted him in advance of this are clear, and whether or not there is belief in the debate that that is one of the requests that we would objectives of the organisation. The final benchmark is make. The survey is shocking. Even the in-house survey about change and how well that is communicated and carried out by the National Offender Management managed in an organisation. The Health and Safety Service has some shocking results in comparison with Executive has developed a self-reporting questionnaire other areas of the public service. I will come on to my that is widely used across industry and the public service. request for a meeting on how we might take this issue forward. Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): Last week I met In the survey, the prison officers scored considerably representatives from the Prison Officers Association to worse than any other sector on all the seven hazard discuss mindfulness in the Prison Service. Mindfulness indicators. There were large gaps—the well-being gap—on has been accepted by the National Institute for Health issues such as demands of the job; the control that and Care Excellence as an intervention for repeat episodes people feel they have of their work; management support, of depression, but it also improves compassion, reduces which is extremely disappointing; and relationships and absenteeism, helps with relationship building, and reduces change. The gap was less on peer support, so prison stress. Does my hon. Friend think that mindfulness in officers appear to get better support from their colleagues the Prison Service could help improve job satisfaction than they do from management. and the mental and physical health of prison officers? The survey was compared with the London prisons survey of 2010. The levels of well-being for peer support John McDonnell: I pay tribute to the work of my were similar, but the scores for management support, hon. Friend in this House in introducing mindfulness control, the roles that people play and relationships were training for Members as well as staff, and developing considerably poorer. The management of change was that whole concept. I have explored the development of rated considerably poorer than in the earlier survey. 953 Prison Officers (Work-related Stress)10 DECEMBER 2014 Prison Officers (Work-related Stress) 954

[John McDonnell] people felt that life was hopeless. I was shocked by the figures. Six out of 10 reported that they were under The quotes from the individual members surveyed strain. The worst figure was that one in 10 reported that can be more revealing than the figures. One of the sometimes life was just not worth living. The researchers questions was about time and other pressures of work. I who undertook the survey are experts in this field. They could cite numerous quotes from the report—I have said that there were unusually high levels of psychological provided the Minister with a copy—but I shall give just distress and that a high proportion required some degree afew: of intervention to improve their well-being. “The pressure is on from the time you walk in to the time you Another issue considered was emotional exhaustion— walk out. It is full on all the time. You try to get a moment to the concept of burn-out. This was extremely high, with yourself but something always crops up and you are off again.” 74% saying that they felt emotionally drained at work Another officer says: at least once a week. Some of that related to physical “Currently, with the staffing shortfalls and the new regime health, with 18% reporting chronic health problems. they’ve got in place, it is constant crisis-management every day of Hypertension is the most common problem. The survey the week. There is no let up.” also included questions about work-life balance, which On every question, the individual responses are stark is one of the psychosocial issues that comes up when and revealing. On management support, one officer assessing one’s enjoyment of work and career. Eight out said: of 10 responded that their time at work stopped them “No support or care. No compassion. More time spent defending participating in family life, and six out of 10 frequently ourselves against management than against inmates.” felt too emotionally drained to participate in family life. They were asked a question that is fairly common in Another said: such surveys: whether they dwelt on work problems “Previously, every person I had to line manage I knew as an outside of work. Some 70% said they could not switch individual. I knew their strengths and their weaknesses. Now I’m off, while 50% were troubled by work-related issues lucky if I see the staff I report on once every couple of months.” when not at work. On job satisfaction, six out of 10 had Prison officers work in a very specific environment, considered leaving the Prison Service in the near future, dealing with challenging individuals, so there is always and seven out of 10 said that if they could choose again a risk of violence and intimidation, but I did not realise they would choose a different job. the scale of that until I read the survey. What conclusions can be drawn from this? First, it is blindingly obvious from the survey that psychosocial Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend working conditions are far from satisfactory. None of agree that the Prison Service is not only in crisis, but is a the Health and Safety Executive’s objective benchmarks powder keg? Somebody must be held accountable because has been met. The researchers said that the psychological someone, somewhere will be seriously hurt in the Prison stress levels for this group of workers were far higher Service. Nine members of staff are assaulted daily, which than in other emotionally demanding occupations, including means 3,400 a year, up 9.4%. More dramatically, serious police and social workers, with reports of anxiety, sleep assaults on staff have increased by 36% since 2010. What disruption, cognitive failure including memory loss and, does that say about the Prison Service at this time? most worryingly, the one in 10 who felt that life was not worth living. The researchers said that there is an urgent John McDonnell: My hon. Friend refers to the crisis need for employment bodies to take steps to protect the in our prisons, which is a consistent theme coming out psychological well-being of their staff. not just from this survey but from all the discussions that have taken place, including the representations we Some of these issues have to be addressed urgently. have received from both prison officers and former Like other Members, I have talked to POA members, governors. front-line staff and representatives, and the same story comes up time and again. Staffing cuts have placed the A total of 49% of prison officers said that they service in crisis, and the staff and the prisoners they receive intimidation and threats from prisoners often look after are suffering. My hon. Friend the Member and regularly, and 30% had been assaulted with more for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) mentioned the number of than half of those having to take time off as a result. On assaults. Nine members of staff are assaulted every the level of management support, 70% said there was day—up 9.4% recently—which is 3,400 a year, while the little support from management. There is one quote number of serious assaults is up 36%. Last year, we from a prison officer that I found particularly startling: published a report on prison violence. It was circulated “I have seen active service whilst in the army, but I have never to hon. Members, but I will place it again in the Library. felt as vulnerable and threatened as I do in my current role.” It was a shocking report, and I make no apologies for On stress, one third reported that their doctor had diagnosed insisting that pictures of assault victims be published as them with stress-related illness—a clinical diagnosis of well, because they are absolutely horrendous. Nobody stress—since working for their current employer. It was should have to experience or risk that on a daily basis in also felt that there was a stigma attached to disclosing their working lives. stress, and that it could make a prison officer subject to As we know, the number of prison suicides has discrimination. That is extremely worrying. increased by 69%. It is a tragedy for the prisoner and The survey included a general health questionnaire their families, but it also has an impact on other prisoners that is used to assess aspects of psychological health and the staff who have to handle and deal with the and somatic symptoms, such as feeling run down or suicide. All the evidence suggests that it can be devastating suffering from headaches, anxiety and insomnia, social for the members of staff, and there is evidence of dysfunction—not being able to enjoy everyday life, or post-traumatic stress disorder among staff who have to not being able to make decisions—and depression, where deal with suicides. 955 Prison Officers (Work-related Stress)10 DECEMBER 2014 Prison Officers (Work-related Stress) 956

I return to the conclusion that many have reached, that the Government needed to look again at the issue which is that much of this is related to staffing cuts. I of pension age and at why this uniformed service was have asked for the figures provided by the Prison Service discriminated against in comparison with the others. to the Prison Service Pay Review Body, because I thought Let me suggest a way forward. We received research that they would be the most accurate. There has been a commissioned by the POA but undertaken independently cut in staff numbers from 51,212 to 37,218 in the past by the university of Bedfordshire, and there is also the four years—a cut of 27.3%. In the prison officer grades, Prison Service’s own survey. Particularly concerning are there has been a cut from 25,553 to 18,934 members of the differences between the scores highlighted for members staff—a 25.9% cut. I know that various figures are of the Prison Service in comparison with others in the bandied about—the Minister and others have presented civil service. There were large discrepancies between us with various figures—but whatever the exact figures, how people felt about their job and how they were being the scale of the cuts has been acknowledged overall. treated. Let me cite an example. When it came to As I said in the Justice Committee, I think the recommending Her Majesty’s Prison Service as a great Government miscalculated the prison population and cut place to work, only 21% were positive. In the area on too many staff, and I am told that they are now recruiting “my work” there was a score of minus 15% in comparison up to 1,700 officers—almost in a panic measure—and with the civil service survey and from high performers trying to recruit the 800 staff laid off in the last year into the score was minus 18%. On “my manager”, it a reserve army to be used almost on an agency basis. As was minus 24%; and on “resources and workload” a result of the staff cuts, as the right hon. Member for it was minus 19%—and so it goes on. When it came to Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd) said, there has been a discrimination, bullying and harassment, 19% said that significant increase in the staff to prisoner ratio from they had experienced discrimination at work over the 1:2.9 in 2010 to 1:3.8. Overall, that means we have fewer past 12 months, while 18% had experienced the bullying members of staff looking after more offenders. or harassment themselves. Even in the National Offender Staffing numbers are an issue, but staffing support Management Service survey, some of the figures are also matters. The Minister has a responsibility—well, somewhat worrying. we all have a responsibility—to build sufficient staff The overall evidence from the university of Bedfordshire resource into the system to address the stress and and even from the Government’s own survey shows clearly psychological well-being issues identified in the report. that we need another way forward. First, we need an I have heard reports of what is available to staff now, urgent meeting between the justice unions parliamentary but there seems to be a significant lack of confidence in group and the Minister to discuss the research and to the facilities available and in the management support establish how to develop support for staff and tackle given to staff. some of the identified issues of work-related stress. The POA and prison officers generally have also Secondly, in light of this research, I urge the Government raised the issue of the retirement age. Prison officers now to look again at the pension age of prison officers. If face having to work until they are 68. When he reported necessary, they should commission further research if on public sector pensions provision, Lord Hutton the current research is not satisfactory. If we need a recommended that exceptions be made to the overall more detailed examination of forcing prison officers to increase in pension age for uniformed services, where work until they are 68, I would welcome the opportunity “the Normal Pension Age should be set to reflect the unique at least to engage in a further review of that decision, characteristics of the work involved. The Government should backed up by further research. consider setting a…Normal Pension Age of 60 across the The third issue is about staffing. I know that the uniformed…services…and keep this under…review.” Minister will report that new staff are being recruited. I Unfortunately, the only uniformed services identified hope that that happens as quickly as possible and that were the police, armed forces and firefighters. For some we can get them trained and into our prisons. We have, reason I have yet to discover, prison officers were not however, lost a lot of experienced trained staff as a included, even though they are a uniformed service and result of the cuts. As a consequence, I believe that our even though, as we see from the research, they are prisons are now not only less safe, but are not fulfilling suffering from greater stress and psychological problems the role of rehabilitation that we want them to fulfil. arising from their workload—more than the police or Thus, for now and the future, lessons need to be learned social workers. from the staffing cuts that we have seen. I am convinced that we will have a constructive response from the Ian Lavery: Is it right that in 2014, we as a nation Minister to the idea of having a meeting and working should be asking 68-year-old men and women to tackle on these issues together to resolve what I find to be an some of the most dangerous people in the country? extremely worrying situation.

John McDonnell: I fully agree with my hon. Friend. A Mr Elfyn Llwyd rose— question was put to prison officers in a survey, and 75% Mr Speaker: I gather that the right hon. Gentleman indicated that working after 60 would very much or has the agreement of the Minister. significantly impair their job performance. The prison officers do not think that they can do their job effectively Mr Llwyd: Perhaps I could ask the Minister whether after the age of 60. I have to say that sometimes we just I have his agreement. have to listen to the people who do the job. I had some discussions with prison officers and a Mr Speaker: It is the normal convention. The Minister number of them agreed with the view that they were is a very agreeable and agreeing sort of fellow, and so is being asked to do an impossible job. They said that they the right hon. Gentleman. I therefore think that we can were being put under unacceptable further pressure and probably proceed in a harmonious manner, subject only 957 Prison Officers (Work-related Stress)10 DECEMBER 2014 Prison Officers (Work-related Stress) 958

[Mr Speaker] And another gentleman said: “No matter how fit you are, at 68 you are not going to be able to the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John to fight or roll round the floor doing C and R with a 20-25 year McDonnell) being content. I anticipate that he will old who goes to the gym every day and pumps iron.” agree, because he is a caring, sharing Member. I do not think that we need to stress those points. 5.30 pm Suffice it to say that prison officers feel greatly under threat. As the Minister knows, there is now a higher Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): I am incidence of lockdown, which is never a happy position grateful to you, Mr Speaker, and, given the number of for prisoners, staff or anyone to be in. It creates a bad years that I have been in the House, I am amazed. One atmosphere, and it sets any thought of rehabilitation learns something new every day, and I am obliged to backward. That, in my view, is fairly obvious. you for having taught me something extra today. Over the years, in my capacity as a lawyer, I have The report is excellent, and it provides good evidence. visited many prisons. When prisons are overcrowded, If the Minister thinks that other reports should be the atmosphere can almost be cut with a knife. prepared, so be it, but I echo what was said by the hon. Some years ago, I visited someone who was on remand Member for Hayes and Harlington in asking him to in Bedford prison. In those days, Bedford was as meet members of the justice unions’ parliamentary overcrowded as some of our prisons typically are today. group, of which the hon. Gentleman and I are officers. It was not a very comfortable place to be in, even for an We want to discuss this matter not to make any political hour’s conference with an accused person, and I wonder points, but to ensure that we have a healthy and safe what it was like for prison staff, and for the prisoners environment for prisoners and prison staff in order to themselves, when there was lockdown for 15 or 16 hours maximise rehabilitation and, above all, safety. One of a day. Lockdown is one of the facets of overcrowding. the ways forward is to reconsider the definition of It means no rehabilitation, and it means that there is uniformed agencies. That point has been made and little likelihood of someone’s coming out of a prison in brings to mind Lord Hutton’s view. I urge the Minister a better frame of mind than the one in which he or she to take heed of both what has been said in this debate went in. and the need for an urgent meeting so we can discuss these matters fully—not, as I said, to make political I applaud the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington points and for point scoring, but because they are (John McDonnell) for seeking time for discussion of urgent issues and we as parliamentarians and Ministers this matter. I was also at the launch of the report to need to address them in the best way we possibly can. which he referred, and I think that it is a valuable document. We are always talking about the need for I thank the Minister for agreeing, in that rather strange evidence-based policy, and this report is evidence-based way across the Chamber, for me to have my tuppence-worth, if ever anything was. Three academics, specialists in and you, Mr Speaker, for your forbearance in this matter. their field, were commissioned to prepare it, and I am sure that the Minister will not in any way seek to 5.36 pm impugn their integrity by suggesting that because it was commissioned by the Prison Officers Association, they Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): I echo the thoughts might have reached a view before the evidence had been of the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd collated. That would be unfair and unjustified, and I (Mr Llwyd), and thank you, Mr Speaker, and the Minister can see no basis for it. for letting me speak, and also my hon. Friend the I shall truncate my speech, because the hon. Member Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell). for Hayes and Harlington has made all the points that I also congratulate him on securing this debate. needed to be made, but I shall make one or two brief I had not intended to speak. I was halfway out the observations. As the Minister will know, overcrowding door when I heard the subject of the debate, and I came increases the risk of violence. Unfortunately, the risk of back to listen to it because it is an important subject. violence is very high at present. I know that there is a My hon. Friend has given some crucial facts to us, such difference of opinion between the Ministry of Justice as that 60% of prison officers feel under tremendous and the Justice Committee, of which the hon. Member strain and one in 10 feel that life is not worth living. for Hayes and Harlington and I are members, but These are terrible statistics. I would like to add to those something that could well be described as a potential the statistics that I have received from parliamentary crisis is now on our doorstep. questions, such as that 90% of prisoners have one of the Prison officers are, by and large, rough, tough individuals. top five psychiatric conditions, and, as my hon. Friend They are not shrinking violets by any means; if they said, that there has been a 69% increase in prison were, they would not be in the job in the first place. suicides over the past year alone. If we have prison However, in the report, one prison officer said: officers on one side who are highly stressed and prisoners “I feel…let down. I signed up with the prison service at 21 to on the other side who are highly stressed, that is a recipe work until I was 60. 1 am now 48, and my health and stamina are for disaster. It is a potentially explosive situation which starting to weaken. I do not feel strong enough to cope with the I think needs to be looked at in the round. young prisoners who are more violent than ever before and have I want to be consensual in what I say, but I do think more freedom to attack staff and get away with it. Being told I stopping prisoners receiving books, or proposing to do have to work till 68 is the last straw—I will be burned out or dead that, was a step backwards. It was a step towards the before I get to retire”. 19th century, not the 21st century. I hope the rest of my Another said: speech will be consensual, however. “When involved in restraining prisoners I find I pick up little niggling injuries a lot more than I did 10 years ago. I know I will Within society itself, there is a mental health crisis. not physically be able to deal with this part of the job when I am According to another parliamentary question I put down, over 60.” there was a 500% increase in the issuing of prescriptions 959 Prison Officers (Work-related Stress)10 DECEMBER 2014 Prison Officers (Work-related Stress) 960 for anti-depressants between 1991 and 2011, from 9 million the workplace. We have taken evidence from experts prescriptions to 49 million. There is an issue in society, across the UK and around the world, and we are now therefore, but it is exacerbated within prisons. drawing up policies that we hope to present on 15 January As I mentioned in my intervention, I believe that next year. I will send the Minister a copy of those policies, mindfulness can play an important role in helping us to and I hope that he will be able to make an assessment of get on top of these issues. Mindfulness was introduced the role of mindfulness in the prison service and the in Parliament by me and Professor Richard Layard, a emergency services. Labour Lord, in January last year. Some 115 MPs and I hope, too, that the Minister will consider introducing Lords have been involved, and 10% of MPs have had mindfulness in the new prison in Wrexham. Health mindfulness training. It has been introduced here in services are devolved; they are a Welsh Government Parliament, which is a hothouse—there is a lot of stress issue and a North Wales Health Authority issue. Prison here—and I think it can be rolled out to the Prison services, however, are not devolved. There needs to be a Service, the police service and the armed services. meeting between the health authority, Ministers in Cardiff What matters is how we pitch mindfulness as an and Ministers here in London to consider setting up a intervention, so that it is accepted. In fact it is quite pilot project to measure key indicators such as the chic. Arianna Huffington of The Huffington Post practises absenteeism of prison officers, the recidivism of prisoners and preaches it. It is done by Apple, Google and all the and the stress levels of all involved. If mindfulness top international companies. If it is good enough for worked in the Wrexham setting, perhaps it could be the captains of industry, it is also good enough for rolled out across the whole of the British prison service ordinary workers like prison officers and police officers, for the benefit of the prison officers, of the prisoners and, indeed, their clients, in tandem—because mindfulness and of wider society. works best when it includes the teacher and the pupil, the GP and the patient, so that compassion is increased. 5.43 pm I believe that if we were to introduce mindfulness in The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice prisons, it would help with a whole range of issues. (Andrew Selous): I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Prisoners are literally a captive audience. They are in Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), who initiated there 24 hours a day, and what do they do? Do they the debate. He is a member of the Justice Committee, learn the skills that mindfulness brings—the skills of as is the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd gratitude, appreciation, personal balance and equanimity (Mr Llwyd). I almost regretted allowing the right hon. that would help them to be better prisoners? Those Gentleman to speak, for fear of being unable to pronounce skills would help them to be less violent towards the the name of his constituency, but I hope that I have prison guards and to be better citizens when they move done it justice. out into society. Last, but certainly not least, I am grateful to the hon. This has worked in the past. Prison officers and Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) for his remarks. police officers face stressful situations. A £5 million Let me deal with his points about mindfulness straight grant was given to the US Marines to undertake mind away. I can tell him that the NHS has set out five ways -fulness training in a pre-combat situation. They were to well-being, the fifth of which is mindfulness. The trained in the US before they went out to Afghanistan Ministry of Justice has already started working on this and Iraq and it worked. Indeed, it was such a success issue and will launch projects on mindfulness in the new that it is now being rolled out to the US army. If it can year. The director of NOMS in Wales, Sarah Payne, work for big beefy Marines, it could work for British takes a particular interest in this important issue, and I prison officers. The work with the Marines involved a thank the hon. Gentleman for raising it. five-year pilot project. The results are still coming in, Let me say at the outset that prison officers face but they are all positive. significant demands on a daily basis, and that working The biggest impacts for the Marines were not only in effectively with some of the most difficult members of the field among the officers and their fellow Marines, society face to face takes a special set of skills, values but in their relationships with their spouses and children and ability. I am immensely proud of the commitment when they got back to the US. My hon. Friend the of our prison staff in delivering their work. Behind the Member for Hayes and Harlington mentioned the fact closed walls of prisons, these civil servants undertake that prison officers felt disconnected when they went essential services on behalf of society, and they do so home at night and were unable to take part in family professionally to keep us all safe. The POA-commissioned activities because they were so stressed out. Also, they survey on work-related stress among prison officers do not earn fantastic wages. All jobs are stressful, but draws attention to several important themes. Although sometimes these officers’ family lives and community there are some differences in the outcomes of the separate lives are destroyed because of needless stress. Sometimes 2014 NOMS staff survey, it would be wrong to dwell on we politicians take decisions that make people’s jobs those at the expense of a more focused debate. We need even more stressful, and the stress for those officers has to understand the work environment that prison officers been cranked up in recent years with the increase in the encounter on a daily basis and what is done to support number of prisoners and the reduction in the number of those charged with carrying out one of the most difficult prison officers. but rewarding jobs in society. It is also important to We have a golden opportunity to introduce mindfulness recognise that the challenge that prison officers face has in prisons. Prison officers and police officers were in increased over recent months as a consequence of staffing Parliament last week, in Westminster Hall, to meet shortages, an unexpected rise in the prisoner population representatives of the Mindfulness Initiative, which is and the unprecedented change being delivered by the looking into the use of mindfulness in the criminal prison benchmarking programme. That programme has justice system, in education, in the health service and in the support of the POA. 961 Prison Officers (Work-related Stress)10 DECEMBER 2014 Prison Officers (Work-related Stress) 962

[Andrew Selous] increased opportunity to focus on the quality of the work that originally interested them, namely to reduce Substantial work is under way to address the shortfalls reoffending and to change lives for the better. and to support change but, in the short term, it is The evidence that the Prison Service continues to understandable that many staff have felt under significantly provide a rewarding career in which staff are able to more pressure during 2014. It is also important to change lives is irrefutable. It is demonstrated in the acknowledge that, regrettably, that position has been commitment and tenacity that prison officers have shown exacerbated by an increase in prisoner assaults on staff in recent months in the difficult circumstances that I and prison violence in general. Understandably, in some have described. It is also evident in the organisation’s cases staff have reported to governors that they feel less ability to attract 1,700 new prison officer recruits. safe. I want to make it absolutely clear that NOMS understands that, and that every incident and every Staff turnover is only 2% for NOMS employees. event of violence against NOMS staff is taken extremely Officer leaving rates for 2013-14 were 3.8%. More than seriously. It is not acceptable that any member of staff 96% of the officers employed by NOMS choose to stay. is injured in the line of duty. The average length of service of a prison officer is 14 years. This is a demanding but rewarding role in Ian Lavery: Does the Minister share my concerns which staff can and do make a significant and positive about the situation at HMP Northumberland, which is impact on offenders’ lives. in my area? When that prison was privatised, Sodexo NOMS will continue to support staff and to provide immediately reduced the work force by a third, yet the them with the skills and development opportunities that prison population has been increasing. Have not prison they need to be able to perform their duties with confidence. officers who are left to carry out the work every right to New prison officers are tested for their suitability to be stressed? What will the Minister do about it? work in a prison environment. They must pass a fitness test and full occupational health assessment before they Andrew Selous: Those who manage contracted prisons are appointed to the role. Importantly, NOMS training absolutely have a duty to make sure that they keep their investment also includes a strong focus on providing the staff as well. If the hon. Gentleman will bear with me, I necessary training and development that line managers will go on to say what we are doing about this important need to support, coach and mentor staff. issue. For those staff who are regrettably assaulted on duty NOMS takes its responsibilities under the Health or who suffer ill health as a result of the impact of their and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 very seriously. We work, there are well-established support mechanisms in are working towards a new protocol for escalating place to help. It is perhaps one of the disappointing matters when prison staff are victims of assault to the aspects of the POA-sponsored survey that it does not Crown Prosecution Service, which rightly recognises reflect the exceptional work between staff, managers the seriousness of these incidents. In my time as Minister, and occupational health that has, in many cases, led to I have encountered excellent examples of how governors staff returning successfully to full duties through phased and their teams have worked closely with staff and return-to-work programmes and counselling support. trade unions to listen to concerns and to introduce We are committed to running safe establishments and more structured regimes that better reflect the resource are working hard to reduce violence in our prisons. We available and provide more reassurance for staff. do not tolerate violence of any kind in prison and any It is also relevant to this debate that we are clear assault is taken extremely seriously. A new violence about what NOMS is doing to address the staffing reduction project is being established. There will be situation and that we explore in more detail the significant guidance to governors on that issue in early 2015, and welfare support that NOMS already has in place to we will implement a coherent set of short-term tangible support this group of front-line public servants in critical actions that are aimed at reducing violence, some of roles. To address the staffing shortfalls, NOMS has over which may involve trialling innovative approaches in the past few months recruited new prison officers at targeted establishments. unprecedented levels: 850 will have joined by Christmas, The violence reduction project has been created to with a further 250 by February; and NOMS is on target gain better understanding of the causes of the current to have recruited 1,700 in total by April. Plans are levels of violence in prisons and to ensure that there is already in place to meet the future prison officer recruitment strength in the handling of violence in terms of both plan for 2015-16, with a further 1,000 prison officers prevention and response. The project will consider such starting at that point. issues as the use of body-worn video cameras for prison In addition, NOMS has an active staff reserve, which officers, raising our intelligence capability to protect is made up of experienced former prison officers, to those officers and staff, developing more robust case provide flexible additional support as part of a modernised management of violent prisoners, and the potential service. As those resources come into place in prisons, impact of the growing use of new psychoactive substances. the operational pressures on staff to work additional We expect to be able to announce more in the new year. payment-plus hours and to provide detached duty support We have always had a complex and challenging prison to other prisons will reduce significantly and beneficially population, but we are taking appropriate steps to in the new year. That information has been welcomed ensure that we carefully manage the increased levels of by POA colleagues and will impact positively on staff violence. We are also committed to managing violence well-being. and supporting the victims of assaults. The new joint In the new year, as prisons begin to reach their new protocol, to which I have referred, which is produced by benchmark staffing levels and transition to new safe, NOMS, the Crown Prosecution Service and the Association decent and secure operating levels, staff will have an of Chief Police Officers, will set out that when there are 963 Prison Officers (Work-related Stress)10 DECEMBER 2014 Prison Officers (Work-related Stress) 964 serious assaults on prison staff, the perpetrator will be Well-being days are also actively pursued as prosecuted unless there is a good reason why not. As I establishments recognise what a positive impact they have said, that initiative has been warmly welcome by have on staff. Staff who have been off sick are being the Prison Officers Association. given a mentor outside their line management. Staff The increase in serious assaults is wholly unacceptable. have also been visited by their governor, either at home However, we are holding a more violent population or in a neutral venue, and numerous establishments and, as I have told the Justice Committee, the number have referred staff to bespoke counselling sessions. I of people sentenced to prison for violent offences has want to put all that on record to show the full extent of increased by 40% over the past decade. We will never the care we take to look after our staff when they are tolerate violence against our staff. We do not underestimate assaulted, wholly unacceptably, in the line of their the hard work and challenges that they face on a daily work. basis and are continually looking at new ways to offer In 2013-14, NOMS delivered 49 staff well-being events support. We are exploring new technology to protect across the agency. Approximately 3,200 staff members staff, including body cameras and slash-resistant material attended those events for advice, support and health to be worn under shirts. checks. Additionally, most prison staff are able to use The access that prison staff have to a range of counselling the prison gym facilities at allotted times and may interventions is on a par with the very best of employers. access support from local physical education instructors Staff are provided with an occupational health adviser, to design their own bespoke fitness and well-being who will work with them and their line manager to programmes. support them in the goal of a successful return to work. We have many examples of that working well. When NOMS conducts an annual staff survey that includes staff are involved in a difficult prisoner incident, a elements that focus on well-being and motivation. This structure that involves the use of in-house staff care year’s survey had a 44% response rate, and 75% of teams, staffing debriefs and continuing support comes respondents stated that they wanted to remain working into effect as a matter of course. for NOMS for at least the next year or three years. In Equally, the access that staff who are unable to work line with the focus of the POA-sponsored survey, NOMS for a period of time have to sick pay provides a full has adopted the Health and Safety Executive’s stress opportunity for them to recuperate before returning to management standards as a framework for the prevention work. For staff who are unable to work for a period of and control of stress, and it has issued a toolkit containing time due to sickness absence, NOMS will pay six months guidance and useful documents for use locally. NOMS on full pay and six months on half pay as part of the encourages all staff, irrespective of their role or position individual’s terms and conditions of employment. That within the organisation, to contribute actively towards can be extended in the case of an injury at work, as the the identification, prevention and management of stress. governor has the opportunity to grant sick absence As I said, stress awareness workshops for staff are excusal in appropriate cases. provided, as well as a 24-hour confidential helpline that staff can ring. In recognition of the stressful nature of the prison working environment, NOMS is committed to supporting I am conscious that the well-being report makes the well-being of staff by reducing stress and increasing reference to the retirement age of prison officers, so I employee attendance. There is also well-publicised support wanted to respond to that by being clear that safe available to staff, including a comprehensive employee systems of work are in place across the prison estate assistance programme, which operates 24 hours a day, to ensure that staff work in an environment that is as 365 days a year. It includes access to counselling and safe as reasonably practical. In this context, the current other therapies as required, a health promotion website fitness standards and assessments for prison officers are and well-being zone, specialist trauma support services based on the requirements of an individual to perform and mediation. A network of peer support in the form the job safely. Since July 2007, NOMS has been recruiting of care teams also operates in every prison and can be staff to work until the age of 65. It has employed new extremely effective. prison officers in their 60s who have passed the fitness Work on improving the management of stress in test and are performing their roles effectively. In addition, NOMS includes: regional stress action plans; individual a number of staff who have the right to retire at 60 now stress risk assessments; a 24-hour helpline for staff; the choose to work beyond their retirement age. A recent inclusion of stress-related issues in people plans, listen- statistical report identified a total of 814 prison officers to-improve sessions and team meetings; governors using over the age of 60, with an average length of service of team meetings and focus groups to identify local stress 24 years, who are working within NOMS. issues, to show transparency in decision making and to I know that the Prison Officers Association will wish offer feedback in resolving them; and the roll-out of to put its case forward for further consideration on the stress-awareness workshops across the estate. retirement age of prison officers, as it is entitled to do. In addition to that support, I want to take this Following a meeting with my officials and the POA on opportunity to share some of the good practice happening 1 December, I agreed that officials and the POA could in the prison estate. There are numerous examples of meet to discuss changes to the pension scheme and the governors maintaining regular contact with staff who associated retirement age. I know that members of the are off and of presenting deputy director of custody POA met officials on 1 December and I will consider commendations in cases where staff have been assaulted. the next steps on this matter with the Cabinet Office. The young people’s estate is also developing and implementing a post-assault protocol for supporting I conclude by thanking the hon. Member for staff, which identifies a process to follow to ensure that Hayes and Harlington and all right hon. and hon. staff are fully supported when they return to work. Members who have spoken this evening. I have a personal 965 Prison Officers (Work-related Stress)10 DECEMBER 2014 Prison Officers (Work-related Stress) 966

[Andrew Selous] I will agree to meet the hon. Gentleman and the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd at some point, commitment to this extremely important matter. I find our diaries permitting. it wholly unacceptable that anyone who works for the Question put and agreed to. state in any capacity should be assaulted in their line of duty. I take this issue seriously, I raise it regularly with officials and I will follow up on the initiatives that we 6.1 pm have announced. Of course, my door is always open. House adjourned. 291WH 10 DECEMBER 2014 Tibet 292WH

Our hosts were impeccably polite and helpful, but Westminster Hall they always kept a watchful eye on us by sitting in the lobby of the Yak hotel in the centre of town where we were staying. It was hard to get away from the minders, Wednesday 10 December 2014 even just to go to the noodle bar next door, but on the final evening in Lhasa the former Member for Thurrock, [ALBERT OWEN in the Chair] Andrew Mackinlay and I managed to escape past the security people out of a back door and into the labyrinth of small streets that eventually led us to the Barkhor. Tibet Once there, we tried to speak to local traders, but most Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting of them did not speak English or were too frightened to be now adjourned.—(John Penrose.) engage with a foreigner, or both. The overwhelming sense we felt from the Tibetans we managed to speak to 9.30 am was that they were highly religious Buddhists and that they missed the Dalai Lama, who was forced to flee Fabian Hamilton (Leeds North East) (Lab): It is a from Tibet in 1959 after being told of a Chinese plot to pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Owen. I murder him. am delighted that Mr Speaker has granted this debate on freedom of expression in Tibet, which I believe is the The reverence for Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th Dalai first debate on Tibet for some years. I am particularly Lama of Tibet, was clear, but the fear of expressing any pleased that it is taking place on international human support for the exiled religious and political leader rights day, which is appropriate given the human rights meant that few obvious signs of support were evident abuses that Tibetans have suffered for decades, ever among most of the population. Local Tibetan Communist since the occupation of Tibet by China in 1950. officials told us that the mediaeval feudalism that used to characterise Tibet before the enlightened Chinese Chinese Government representatives and diplomats Communist party liberated the Tibetan people meant will say that Tibet has always been a part of China. that every Tibetan now had a far better lifestyle: they They say that it has never been a separate nation or an could live in a good home and have enough to eat. independent state, but that is simply not true. However, gradually over the past 60 years or so, Tibetans have become second-class citizens in their own land. Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind): I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman for allowing me to intervene so I had the huge privilege of visiting Tibet in 2006, early in his contribution and I am delighted that he is thanks to the insistence of colleagues on the Select having this debate on this day. I wonder whether he or Committee on Foreign Affairs, in particular the right Andrew Mackinlay, or any of the other visiting Members, hon. Member for Tonbridge and Malling (Sir John had the opportunity during their 2006 visit to obtain Stanley). The Foreign and Commonwealth Office was evidence of, or to discuss, human rights abuses, including initially reluctant for members of the FAC—of whom I torture, in Tibet. Will he enlighten us about that in his was one at the time—to go to Lhasa and other parts of contribution? the so-called Tibet Autonomous Region, but we insisted and, in May of that year, a small group of five British MPs was eventually given permission to travel from Fabian Hamilton: I thank the hon. Lady for that Beijing via Chengdu to Lhasa. We were accompanied contribution. Sadly, we did not have much of a chance by Barbara Woodward, then a senior British diplomat to talk to anyone about what Tibetans had to suffer day at our embassy in Beijing—I believe she is now the in, day out, because we were not allowed access to any ambassador-designate—who spoke excellent Tibetan, Tibetans without our minders from Beijing. However, and about 15 officials from the Chinese Government’s we asked the abbot of one of the monasteries about the Foreign Ministry, who were there to look after our missing monks for whom we had records and names. security and attend to any medical needs, given the high He was extremely embarrassed and refused to answer altitude of the Tibetan capital. The new railway from our questions because of the people who were watching Chengdu was yet to open later that summer. him. There was a sense of fear the whole time that we I did not expect that the visit would have such a were there, but subsequently we discovered quite a lot, profound effect on me and my colleagues. The sheer especially when we did our full inquiry into Britain and beauty of the ancient home of the Dalai Lamas, the China. The people we were with said that the Tibetans Potala palace, and the surrounding Himalayan mountains were now better off under the Chinese People’s Republic, make Lhasa a unique capital city. It is, as Tibetans often without a feudal monarchy over which they had no say say, the roof of the world. On disembarking the aircraft or control—that they no longer had to be subjected to at 13,000 feet above sea level there is a sensation of an ancient religious system of government that had dizziness, which can last for several days at that altitude. subjugated them for centuries. Heinrich Harrar’s book, “Seven years in Tibet”, had After leaving Lhasa, we travelled for several hours given me some background to what we were about to along dusty, deserted roads in a treeless wilderness see, but nothing quite prepares one for the reality. The towards the concrete-block town of Tsedang, a place city had changed quite a lot over the years and there that foreigners rarely visit, where silence greeted our were many more Han Chinese residents in 2006 than entry into a run-down old bar on the evening of our there ever had been. However, the old Barkhor area in arrival. The next morning we were to visit the oldest the centre of Lhasa was mainly intact and the Buddhist Buddhist monastery in Tibet, the eighth century Samye temples have been carefully preserved in recent years, monastery, which is being carefully restored to its full following their initial destruction at the beginning of glory by the Chinese after the damage wrought in the the Chinese occupation. 1950s following the invasion. It was a truly remarkable 293WH Tibet10 DECEMBER 2014 Tibet 294WH

[Fabian Hamilton] Tibetan People” was presented during the eighth round of talks in 2008. The Chinese Government expressed a place, but even there the interpreters were reluctant to number of concerns and objections to the memorandum. mention the name of the Dalai Lama, who still had a To address those concerns, during the ninth and last throne waiting for him in one of the many rooms. round of talks in January 2010 the Tibetan leadership On our return to the UK, news of the trip quickly presented the “Note on the Memorandum on Genuine spread to the Tibet support groups and the all-party Autonomy for the Tibetan People”. parliamentary group for Tibet, which I now have the privilege of chairing. I was asked to speak and to show David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): I congratulate my many stunning and extraordinary photographs, which the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate. He gave an I was happy to do. Just over a year later, in September answer to a previous question about discussions that 2007, I joined a visit organised by the APPG and the were held, and he outlined that there was not much Tibet Society to Dharamsala to meet the exiled Tibetan engagement with people. Was there any engagement community and, of course, His Holiness the Dalai Lama. with the youth of Tibet in particular or with the The Dalai Lama always talks about his middle way educationalists, to hear their views? policy towards China. He jokes in his broken English that because Tibetans are no good with firearms, the Fabian Hamilton: I thank the hon. Gentleman for Chinese are welcome to provide an army to defend that question; the answer is no, not while we were there. Tibet and that Tibetan cooking is pretty awful, while On subsequent visits to Dharamsala we engaged with Chinese food is very tasty, so most Tibetans would many young people who had escaped from Tibet to seek prefer to eat Chinese food. However, he thinks that the refuge and sanctuary in India. They made their views autonomy they are given should mean just that: the very clear, and how they saw the oppression by the ability of Tibetans to have a say over their own future; Chinese Communist regime in Lhasa and other parts of to decide for themselves who their rulers should be; to Tibet. Sadly, however, while we were in Tibet, we did speak their own language; to practise their own religion; not have access to anybody outside those who were and, most importantly, to have their Dalai Lama back dictated to by our hosts. Those were the strict rules among them, not continuing to live in exile. under which we were allowed to visit Tibet at all. It was a privilege to be in Tibet, but sadly it was not a very Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- enlightening visit as far as learning the views of the op): I thank my hon. Friend for giving way and congratulate people was concerned. Nevertheless, being there and him on securing today’s debate. I had the privilege of seeing things for ourselves meant a great deal. accompanying a delegation on a further visit to As I was saying, the Chinese Government expressed a Dharamsala. Does he agree that the ability to express number of concerns and objections to the memorandum. one’s own culture and to show religious affiliation is not To address these, the Tibetan leadership presented the available to Tibetans, who could find themselves in fear “Note on the Memorandum on Genuine Autonomy for of their lives simply for having an image of their own the Tibetan People” during the ninth and last round of national flag or spiritual leader? talks. The memorandum and the note outline how genuine autonomy for the Tibetan people could operate Fabian Hamilton: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. within the framework of the People’s Republic of China— I will go on to detail some of the human rights abuses its constitution, its sovereignty and territorial integrity, perpetrated against Tibetans simply for expressing their its “three adherences” and the hierarchy and authority support for their religious leader or displaying the Tibetan of the Chinese central Government. flag, which is something that we can freely do outside Sadly, there has been no dialogue between the Chinese Tibet. That is reprehensible. and the exiled Tibetan leadership since 2010. Despite The middle way approach for genuine autonomy for that, however, the Tibetan leadership remains steadfast the Tibetan people was a policy conceived by His Holiness in its commitment to the middle way approach, and to in 1974, in an effort to engage the Chinese Government finding a lasting solution through dialogue between in dialogue and find a peaceful way to protect the the envoys of His Holiness the Dalai Lama and the unique Tibetan culture and identity. It is a policy adopted representatives of the Chinese leadership. Therefore, my democratically through a series of discussions over first question to the Minister is this. Would the British many decades between the Central Tibetan Administration Government support the resumption of dialogue between and the Tibetan people, and there is no doubt that it is a the envoys of His Holiness the Dalai Lama and the “win-win” proposition that straddles the middle path representatives of the Chinese leadership? The Tibetan between the status quo and full independence—one leadership has reiterated on numerous occasions its that categorically rejects the present repressive policies commitment to seeking genuine autonomy, not of the Chinese Government towards the Tibetan people independence, and to finding a resolution to the Tibet without seeking separation from the People’s Republic issue through peaceful means. The British Government of China. have a particular responsibility, unique among all western The most recent series of talks between Dharamsala Governments, because of the relationship that we had and Beijing began in 2002, with a total of nine rounds with the Tibetan Government in Lhasa prior to 1959. of talks being held since then. During the seventh round of talks in 2008—the year in which unprecedented Lady Hermon: I am extremely grateful to the hon. and widespread protests broke out across Tibet—the Gentleman for allowing me to intervene on him once Chinese Government asked the Tibetan leadership to again. He referred to the special commitment that Britain put in writing the nature of the autonomy it sought. has to Tibet. Bearing in mind the special commitment The “Memorandum on Genuine Autonomy for the that the UK had to Hong Kong and the recent reaction 295WH Tibet10 DECEMBER 2014 Tibet 296WH by China to Hong Kong, is he saying to us and to the For his crime of making a film called “Leaving Fear Foreign Office that he is concerned about China tightening, Behind”, Dhondup was given a six-year prison sentence, rather than loosening, its grip on Tibet? and he was only released on 5 June this year. When he was imprisoned, I raised his case in the House with the Fabian Hamilton: I thank the hon. Lady for that then Foreign Secretary, and subsequently wrote to the question, which is very pertinent. I have deliberately Chinese ambassador and the authorities at the prison avoided mentioning Hong Kong, but she makes an where he was incarcerated. important point. My impression, having studied Tibet Dhondup’s wife, Lhamo Tso, came to stay with my and Chinese relations with Tibet for the last eight years, wife and me in Leeds three years ago while she was on a is that China is tightening its grip. There is further tour of the UK to raise awareness of her husband’s oppression of the Tibetan people and China is clamping plight, which had left her and their four children living down; there is no doubt about that. in extreme poverty in Dharamsala. This family’s story In the eight and a half years since I was in Lhasa, was typical of stories of the families of any Tibetan Tibet and its people have come to mean a great deal to who dared to speak out against the Chinese Government me, as they do to so many supporters of a free Tibet, and the way that Tibetans are routinely treated in their both in this country and throughout the world. In a own land. “Leaving Fear Behind” is critical of the materialistic consumer society, the teachings of the Chinese Government and records the feelings and thoughts Dalai Lama and the ideals of Tibetans living in exile of ordinary Tibetans about the Olympic games. It does provide us with an alternative to the lives we live today. not advocate violence or the overthrow of the state; it is It is not that I have become a kind of Jewish Buddhist— not subversive in any way; and it would be considered [Interruption.] Well, there might be such a thing. It is quite mild if it had been a documentary about this not that we should all convert and that the world would country’s attitude to what the Chinese Government then be a better place, but this is an ancient culture with label an ethnic minority. However, such freedom of warmth, wisdom and a message of peace and love for expression is forbidden in Tibet, so Dhondup had all humanity—I do not mean Judaism—and that is a committed a criminal offence. message that we rarely hear in the world today. The 14th The outrageous and severe punishment he received Dalai Lama never stops telling anyone who will listen— almost took his life, because he contracted hepatitis B many millions do listen to him—that we can live in while he was in jail. Born in Amdo, Dhondup is now 40. peace and harmony together, without war or conflict. I He is free again and will soon be reunited with his wife can never understand why the Chinese Government and children, who are now in the United States. Human believe he is such a threat to them, and even call him a Rights Watch, Amnesty International and Students for terrorist. a Free Tibet took up his case and organised a worldwide Today is not only international human rights day but protest, but it made no difference to the severity of his the 25th anniversary of the awarding of the Nobel sentence; he was not released early. peace prize to His Holiness. To quote from the Let me leave Dhondup’s case by quoting him on why announcement of the Nobel peace prize for 1989, which he made the film: was made in Oslo on 5 October that year, “At a time of great difficulty and a feeling of helplessness”, “The Norwegian Nobel Committee has decided to award the 1989 Nobel Peace Prize to the 14th Dalai Lama, Tenzin Gyatso, the idea of his film was to the religious and political leader of the Tibetan people. The “get some meaningful response and results. It is very difficult”— Committee wants to emphasize the fact that the Dalai Lama in his struggle for the liberation of Tibet consistently has opposed that is, difficult for Tibetans— the use of violence. He has instead advocated peaceful solutions based upon tolerance and mutual respect in order to preserve the “to go to Beijing and speak out there. So that is why we decided to historical and cultural heritage of his people. The Dalai Lama has show the real feelings of Tibetans inside Tibet through this film. developed his philosophy of peace from a great reverence for all Nowadays, China is declaring that they are preserving and improving things living and upon the concept of universal responsibility Tibetan culture and language. That’s what they’re telling the embracing all mankind as well as nature. In the opinion of the world. Many organisations and offices have been set up for these Committee, the Dalai Lama has come forward with constructive things. What they say and what they do are totally different, and forward-looking proposals for the solution of international opposites. If they really want to preserve and improve Tibetan conflicts, human rights issues and global environmental problems.” culture and language in Tibet then they should withdraw Chinese people living in Tibetan areas. Tibetan culture and language has Later today, I will attend a ceremony in London to to be practised in all Tibetan areas. If it’s not practised, how can it commemorate the 25th anniversary of the awarding of be preserved?” the Nobel peace prize to the Dalai Lama. It is important Throughout the ages, music has often been used as a that we never forget the contribution that he has made way of expressing protest. A number of Tibetan musicians to global peace and understanding. Despite their best have written and performed songs and made CDs, for efforts, the Chinese Government can never remove the which they have been arrested and severely punished. love and respect that the Tibetan people have for him. Lolo, a 30-year-old male Tibetan singer, was first detained His message continues to be highly relevant in the on 19 April 2012, shortly after releasing an album with modern world. political lyrics. After a brief period of detention he was The cause of Tibet and freedom of expression is released but was later re-arrested. In February 2013, important, and not just to Tibetans. Let me outline Lolo was sentenced to six years in prison by a court in some of the cases that have been drawn to my attention. Xining, Qinghai province, on charges of “seditiously One of the earliest cases I became involved in was that splitting the state”, a catch-all offence that allows the of Dhondup Wangchen, the Tibetan film-maker who Chinese authorities to punish ethnic minorities defending produced a documentary that was critical of the Chinese their rights. Lolo’s album, “Raise the Tibetan Flag, Government in the run-up to the 2008 Beijing Olympics. Children of the Snowland”, contained 14 songs that 297WH Tibet10 DECEMBER 2014 Tibet 298WH

[Fabian Hamilton] which can be more accurately characterised as totalitarian, the state recognises no limits to its authority, imposes a called for Tibet’s independence, the unity of the Tibetan climate of fear, and strives to regulate every aspect of people and the return of the Dalai Lama. The title track public and private life to crush all forms of dissent is a direct challenge to China’s rule. against Communist party rule. There has been a dramatic Other musicians convicted for publishing expansion of the powers of China’s policing and military controversial Tibetan songs include Kalsang Yarphel, apparatus in Tibet. This has created a climate of fear who on 27 November, just two weeks ago, was sentenced and lack of trust, even among families and close friends. to four years in prison by a Chinese court in Chengdu, Many Tibetans in exile report that they cannot talk to Sichuan province. Pema Rigzin, 44, was sentenced to their families in Tibet on the phone, because of the two and a half years in prison and a severe fine of danger to their families of their having contact with 50,000 yuan for composing, releasing, and distributing them as exiles. music with alleged political overtones. Among the songs The Chinese Government have stepped up Communist he produced were “In Memory of Tibet” and “Tears”, party presence in Tibet, sending thousands of Chinese which have since been banned. Rigzin was detained on officials to carry out surveillance and so-called “political 7 May 2013 in Chengdu city, and held incommunicado education”, and to disseminate propaganda. The Chinese until the trial. Rigzin’s family were barred from hiring state media call it a “war against secessionist sabotage”, the lawyer of their choice. in which the Chinese Government seek to replace loyalty Kelsang Yarphel, who is 39, and a popular Tibetan to the Dalai Lama in Tibetan hearts and minds with folk singer and composer, was sentenced to four years allegiance to the Chinese party-state and, in doing so, to in prison and given an immense 200,000 yuan fine. He obliterate memory and undermine Tibetan national was detained by the authorities in Lhasa on 14 July identity at its roots. 2013 on charges that he performed a song with alleged Just nine days ago, on 1 December, the Chinese political overtones in a concert. Though some of Yarphel’s Government announced a programme of sending artists, music encouraged Tibetan unity, none has been known film-makers and TV personnel to ethnic minority and to express overtly political ideology. Song titles included border areas to help local artists “We Should Learn Tibetan” and “We Should Unite”. “form a correct view of art”. At the Lhasa concert he performed a song called “Fellow Announcing the programme, the state-run news agency, Tibetans”, which calls on Tibetans to learn and speak Xinhua, commented: Tibetan and to “build courage” to think about Tibet’s “Art and culture cannot develop without political guidance”. “future path”. It also congratulated Chinese President Xi Jinping for Finally, I draw to the attention of hon. Members and “emphasising the integration of ideology and artistic values”. the Minister the case of Tenzin Delek Rinpoche, a senior monk sentenced to life imprisonment on false Since last May, following the killings in Xinjiang, an charges. He is not a musician. He was arrested on expansive counter-terrorism drive has been launched by 3 April 2002 following a bomb blast in Chengdu, along the Chinese Government and has expanded across China, with his student Lobsang Dhondup. In November 2002, including Tibet. In Tibet, the Chinese authorities have both were sentenced to death. At the trial, the main organised large-scale military drills and intensified border evidence presented against Tenzin Delek was a confession security, and are holding training exercises for troops from Lobsang Dhondup, which Lobsang later retracted, on responding to self-immolation and on dealing with claiming that he had been tortured. However, the appeal problems in monasteries, in spite of the absence of any hearing in January 2003 upheld Lobsang Dhondup’s violent insurgency in Tibet. Armed responses to protests, death sentence and he was executed on the same day. including killing with impunity and the torture and Tenzin Delek Rinpoche’s death sentence was suspended imprisonment of individuals, have become the cause of for two years, and then commuted to life imprisonment instability and are therefore deeply counter-productive. in 2005. In conclusion, I have a number of requests for the Tenzin Delek Rinpoche has consistently maintained Government to consider, which I believe will help the his innocence. He is now suffering from severe ill health cause of Tibet and allow Tibetans the right to free and there are serious concerns for his well-being, so expression that we in Europe and the west take so much much so that family members and others are calling for for granted. I hope that the Minister will discuss these the international community to help press the Chinese points with the Foreign Secretary, and that on this authorities to grant him medical parole. Tenzin Delek is international human rights day of 10 December, the a highly revered Tibetan Buddhist lama and a community British Government will continue to be proactive in leader from Litang in Sichuan province. He has worked supporting the human rights of Tibetans in Tibet. on numerous social, medical and educational projects My requests are these. First, as a matter of urgency, I and campaigned for the protection of Tibet’s fragile urge the British Government to call on China to engage environment, working to stop indiscriminate logging in a broader and more substantive dialogue with Tibetan and mining activities. I hope that the Minister adds his representatives, and to involve the Dalai Lama in discussions voice to the international calls for Tenzin Delek’s early on Tibet’s future. There needs to be a more robust release. approach, given that the current approach is clearly not There is no doubt that the Chinese Government use a achieving anything. mix of systematic oppressive measures, propaganda Secondly, I urge the Government to strengthen policies and disinformation to stifle free expression and to present towards China and Tibet, and to be more robust, with a a positive image of their actions in Tibet to the outside clear stance and directive regarding human rights, civil world. Since peaceful demonstrations spread across Tibet society and democratic rights. The Government should in 2008, the Chinese authorities have adopted a harsher adhere to their stance that human rights are integral approach to suppressing dissent. In its current approach, to the United Kingdom’s foreign policy. Thirdly, I want 299WH Tibet10 DECEMBER 2014 Tibet 300WH the Government to challenge China’s policies in Tibet, but I have travelled to Dharamsala and met many in particular where the Chinese Government are flouting members of the Tibetan community there and heard international standards on human rights and civil liberties. the appalling stories they have to tell us. At the outset, I Fourthly, the Government should take the lead in the pay tribute to the Tibet Society and in particular to European Union in explicitly calling on the Chinese Philippa Carrick. It does fantastic work in keeping the Government to address the policies in Tibet that threaten flame of hope lit and the flag flying for the Tibetan Tibetan culture, religion and identity and are the root cause in this country and beyond. I declare an interest cause of the crisis. These are the key grievances of the as an officer of the all-party group for Tibet. I welcome Tibetan people. the Minister, who has shown a genuine interest in this Fifthly, I urge the Government to prevail on the cause in the past, and I am sure he will be listening Chinese leadership to end the military build-up and to carefully to what everyone has to say. limit the dominance of the security apparatus in Tibet. The hon. Member for Leeds North East rightly said Sixthly, I want the Government to initiate a scholarship that today was an appropriate day for the debate, as it is scheme in the UK for Tibetans inside Tibet, as well as human rights day, but it is also 25 years since the for Tibetan refugees. Seventhly, the Government should Tiananmen Square massacre, which is another reminder explore the possibility of cultural exchanges with Tibetans of China’s inability to allow free speech and expression inside Tibet or, if that is not possible, with Tibetan within its borders. I am particularly concerned—I will refugee communities in India and Nepal, to help promote not go into the detail of all the cases that he articulated— and preserve Tibetan culture. Eighthly, I want the that the situation has been getting worse over the past Government to provide funding for a BBC Tibetan six years, since the Beijing Olympics. There have been service. Ninthly, I urge the Government to call for severe security crackdowns and restrictions on freedom medical parole for Tenzin Delek Rinpoche, who is of expression, religion, movement and assembly. The serving a life sentence and is seriously ill. climate within the Tibetan autonomous region can be Over the past seven years, I have been privileged to likened to that of a military occupation. I do not think meet His Holiness the Dalai Lama no fewer than eight it alarmist to say that the Chinese Government have times: twice in India, five times in London, including effectively created a climate of fear within Tibet. They when he was awarded the Templeton prize at St Paul’s strive to regulate virtually every aspect of public and cathedral in May 2012, and once when he came to my private life in order to crush any form of dissent against home city of Leeds. I am grateful to both the office of Community party rule. the Dalai Lama in London and to the Tibet Society for There has also been a dramatic expansion in the their help in organising the visits of His Holiness to the powers of China’s policing and military apparatus in UK, and to Mr Speaker for hosting the Dalai Lama in Tibet. As the hon. Gentleman said, many Tibetans Parliament in 2012, against the advice given to him in exile report that they cannot talk to their families in from certain quarters that such a meeting could damage Tibet on the phone because of the danger they might be relations with the People’s Republic of China. The put in through that contact. Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister also deserve praise for agreeing to meet the Dalai Lama in 2012 at St Paul’s cathedral, an event that had repercussions for Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): UK-China relations for many months afterwards. The hon. Gentleman is outlining the deteriorating situation regarding Tibet and China, but does he agree that as a I thank Philippa Carrick and Paul Golding from the society and a Government, we have to analyse the Tibet Society and Chonpel Tsering from the office of benefits of the UK-China human rights dialogue to see the Dalai Lama for all their help in preparing my speech whether it is productive? It would appear that it was today. Finally, I strongly believe that Tibet and the productive in the past in trying to de-escalate tensions Tibetan people should be free, and I will never give up between the United Kingdom and China. Should we my support for their struggle. I give everyone today the analyse its benefits for the future? traditional Tibetan greeting: tashi delek, or blessings and good luck. Tim Loughton: Of course dialogue is best, but dialogue Albert Owen (in the Chair): Before I call Mr Loughton, needs to take place on both sides. Everyone with an I remind the Chamber that I will call the shadow interest in Tibet needs to be given the freedom to Minister at 10.40 am. We have 40 minutes and four express themselves in a peaceful way, and the Tibetans speakers have indicated that they wish to speak. just have not been given that privilege within their borders or in other parts of the world. The Chinese 10.1 am Government, with their tentacles even in this country, try to suppress people who plead the cause for freedom Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con): of expression and freedom of movement for the Tibetan Thank you, Mr Owen. I can do the maths. I congratulate people. We need to adopt the guise of a critical friend the hon. Member for Leeds North East (Fabian Hamilton) and be in dialogue with China. We have much to benefit on battling against his health to be here today for a long from trade and engagement with China, but it does not overdue and important debate. It is right that the House serve that cause or the cause of democracy that we hold has an opportunity to express solidarity with Tibetans so dear in this place if we turn a blind eye to the blatant and to question the continued oppression in the Tibetan suppression of the rights of millions of people who autonomous region and of Tibetans across the world at happen to live in part of what is China. It serves no the hands of the Chinese. I cannot rival his Jewish-Buddhist purpose for what we are here to do if we carry on perspective or the number of times he has met His regardless. As a critical friend, dialogue is everything, Holiness the Dalai Lama. I have only had the opportunity but remember that some people are put in prison for to meet him twice. I have not been able to go to Tibet, trying to exercise just that right. 301WH Tibet10 DECEMBER 2014 Tibet 302WH

[Tim Loughton] shows just how paranoid the Chinese have become. Singing a song can lead to a jail sentence. People who I am concerned about the escalation of surveillance were legitimately protesting online about abuses in the and the issuing of propaganda by the Chinese within fur trade earlier this year have also ended up in jail. It is Tibet. They sent thousands of Chinese officials to carry an outrage that people suffer persecution and torture in out surveillance and what they call “political education”, prison and are then released before they die so they are and to disseminate propaganda. The example of forming not deemed to have died from their injuries in jail. a “correct view of art” shows how China’s tentacles go This House has a duty to flag up the abuse suffered into every element of Tibetan society. The Chinese by one of the most peace-loving peoples I have ever authorities have deemed it a counter-terrorism drive come across. To liken the Dalai Lama to a terrorist is and, under that guise, they have organised large-scale quite extraordinary when he has spent his life preaching military drills and intensified border security, and are peace and harmony between peoples around the globe. holding training exercises for troops on responding to He stands for freedom of worship and of expression. self-immolations and dealing with problems in The Tibetans’ struggle for their culture, language, heritage monasteries—despite the absence of violent insurgency and soul is one we have a duty to do everything we can in Tibet. All the protests we have seen are peaceful. to support. Yesterday, the all-party group had a briefing from I will end on the chilling note that the suppression is someone who recently travelled to Tibet and was allowed not only happening in Tibet. The tentacles of the Chinese in as a tourist. Some of the worrying accounts he gave Government reach into other Governments and local us of everyday life for Tibetans in their country are authorities and within education establishments and worth recounting. He had a Tibetan driver with a universities. I am particularly worried about the Confucius Tibetan car. There are fantastic new roads across the institutes or cultural centres that are co-operating with Tibetan autonomous region. In my constituency, we universities across the world. They have discriminatory would die for such roads and the lack of congestion. hiring practices and seek to impose censorship on topics The speed limit for Tibetans is 40 kph. Their arrival and such as human rights, the Tiananmen Square massacre departure from certain towns is closely monitored to see and any dialogue about Tibet. We must seek out, expose whether they have exceeded the speed limit. They are and resist such censorship of our freedom to speak out. prosecuted or under fear of prosecution if there is any When I was a Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member minor infraction of that speed limit, yet someone with for Lewes (Norman Baker), who cannot be here today, Chinese plates is allowed to go a bit faster, it would and I were warned off meeting the Dalai Lama at a appear. Police checkpoints are littered liberally across private lunch because it might upset the Chinese—tough. those roads, in the middle of nowhere—for what purpose? We need transparency of dialogue and to be able to Huge urbanisation is going on in the Tibetan speak freely. When speaking freely in the House, we autonomous region and, worryingly, most of the new must say loud and clear that the Tibetan people’s struggle businesses springing up are Chinese-owned. All the is a struggle for democracy and free speech in which all road signs are in Chinese, with the Tibetan language of us have an interest. version in a small font underneath. People are unlikely to get work with Chinese businesses unless they speak 10.14 am Chinese, even within Tibet. We saw photographs of drones surveying monasteries across Tibet in a rather Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab): It is a pleasure to follow sinister way. We saw security cameras disguised as prayer the hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham wheels within monasteries and towns. We saw what (Tim Loughton), as I am also a member of the all-party Lhasa has become: a much changed place, I am sure, parliamentary group for Tibet. I congratulate my hon. from when the hon. Gentleman visited some eight and a Friend the Member for Leeds North East (Fabian half years ago. For what is a holy place for many Hamilton) on getting this timely debate. I will not go Tibetans is a sprawling modern city with the ubiquitous into the individual cases that he carefully and properly cloud of pollution overhanging it, as we see in so many raised. An important aspect of today’s debate is that we parts of China. The region is home to some 3 million get the names of those brave Tibetans who are being Tibetans, but receives approximately 13 million Chinese held in custody or have been imprisoned for long sentences visitors. There has been huge immigration of Han Chinese out to the rest of the world, and that has been done well into Tibet, swamping the language and culture and this morning. trying to dilute Tibet’s history by sheer weight of numbers. Looking through Tibet Watch’s excellent booklet, It happens day in, day out, and Tibetans have to suffer “Broken promises”, I was reminded of how we were all this oppression with a depressed resignation that can be were duped—or how many people were; I feel personally seen in the faces of the people in the photographs and that I was not—into feeling that if China got the film we were shown. Olympics, it would make such a difference and China Surveillance happens not only in person, but online. would do all these wonderful things, changing its whole Reprisals are likely following searches for subjects such attitude to human rights. We went along with that, but as “democracy”, “the Dalai Lama” and “Tiananmen what has happened? Not a single thing has changed in square”. State censorship and the suppression of free relation to Tibet. Indeed, as has been mentioned, things expression are widespread across China, but since the are getting worse by the day. protests that broke out across Tibet in March 2008, the I, too, had the privilege of hearing from the gentleman Chinese Government have strengthened attempts to at yesterday’s meeting who had recently been to Tibet. impose an information black-out across Tibet. That it is It is clear that the Chinese Government are making a an offence to display the Tibetan flag—even a digital huge attempt to rapidly change the face of Tibet—not image on a mobile phone—because it is deemed to be a just to change civil liberties and human rights, but to separatist activity punishable with a prison sentence, change the physical structure of Tibet. Some 13 million 303WH Tibet10 DECEMBER 2014 Tibet 304WH

Chinese tourists visited Tibet last year, and we are built one in Lhasa that employs Chinese people and is seeing a concentration of Chinese people who are given part of efforts there to destroy Tibetan culture. Tibet money to go and settle in Tibet. The Chinese Government groups across the world are trying hard to organise want to eliminate every last sign or vestige of Tibetan some kind of boycott of InterContinental Hotels, because culture and the history of that wonderful country. We of what the company is doing in that part of Tibet. We must be clear that none of our warm words about must get to the bottom of the money that is coming in working closely with China seems to be having any There have also been incidents, such as the ones we effect whatever. I will be interested to hear what the heard about only yesterday, which happened recently in Minister says about that. Sheffield, where there are substantial numbers of Chinese I want to go into a little more detail about something students. Many of those students are very political that the hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham indeed, and we heard about the example of a shop mentioned. I am also concerned about the Confucius owner who had put a Tibetan flag in the window. I do institutes, of which I think there are now 24 in the not think it was a huge flag; nevertheless, they were United Kingdom. These are Chinese Government-funded threatened that if they did not take it down, things cultural centres that are set up at universities all over the would happen. In fact, the windows were broken, which world, although the UK has the second highest number was reported to the police, but the attitude was, “Well, after the United States. Several universities in the United this was just students being a bit silly.” States and Canada—including the university of Chicago, The reality is that this is not students being a little Pennsylvania State university and the Toronto district silly. What is happening here is coming from the very school board—recently pulled out of relationships with top in China. I am very worried indeed that unless we Confucius institutes because of accusations and proof face up to it early, China will do in this country and of discriminatory hiring practices and censorship of other parts of Europe what it has done in Africa, which certain topics. In order for a university to receive Chinese is to go in and simply use its money as a way of getting money, the Chinese do not want any mention of Tibet its message across and its way of doing things. That or any criticism of anything that is happening. relates directly to Tibet, in the sense that Tibet is the I was privileged to hear recently from an American issue in this country that gets the most publicity in our professor at a meeting in Parliament about how China’s universities, and yet many of our students are being influence on an American university is threatening freedom stopped from getting their message across because of of speech. If we cannot have freedom of speech in our the worry about China. universities, we really are on a slippery slope. It is worrying and sad that one of our most famous universities, I would add that South Africa recently refused to give the London School of Economics, has been reluctant to His Holiness the Dalai Lama a visa, which meant that give out information on how much money it has been the conference of all Nobel prize winners had to be getting from China. It is only through journalists’ use of cancelled—it is now happening in Rome, in Italy, this freedom of information requests that we have discovered week. Meanwhile, the Chinese Government, having put the exact amounts given out. It has been revealed that pressure on South Africa, immediately thanked the the LSE South African Government and more or less said, “We will now do something for you, as you were so kind as “has received £863,537.91 from the Chinese state for housing a to stop the Dalai Lama visiting.” Confucian Centre and a further $33,000 for teaching Chinese government officials via BHP Billiton, a mining conglomerate.” We are getting to the point where I want to ask our If China has 25 of these cultural outposts right at the Government, “What dreadful thing would the Chinese hearts of our main universities, that funding will extend Government have to do in order for our Government to to several million pounds. Of course that may sound start standing up to China? What would have to happen wonderful—isn’t that great: universities that are suffering for us to start calling in the Chinese ambassador and from a shortage of resources are getting money directly doing things that make a difference, such as saying, from China? The danger, however, is that no matter “I’m sorry, we might need the money—the investment how much the university hierarchies say that that will is great—but you, China, are fundamentally a pariah not influence or affect what they do, the reality on the state and we’re going to treat you as such”? Unless we ground is that it does. In fact, they are taking what start standing up to China, as the European Union or could be said to be Chinese gold in return for getting as a country, it will not buckle to anything other than out Chinese propaganda—sometimes subtly, sometimes force, in terms of what we are saying—I am not suggesting less subtly. I really believe that our Government should we invade China, but I am suggesting that we start to be investigating this and making sure—[Interruption.] mean what we say. Warm words have come out of all Governments, Albert Owen (in the Chair): Order. I think the hon. including this one and the previous one. We were the Lady’s phone is vibrating and being picked up by the last country not to recognise that Tibet was part of microphones. China, but David Miliband, the Foreign Secretary in the previous Government, changed that, telling the Kate Hoey: I am sorry. The phone is turned off. I am House that it would make a great difference and that glad I am not in Tibet, because it would have been China would start behaving better. Of course that did monitored. not happen. There is a serious issue. We are seeing Chinese China has a terrible human rights record not only in developments coming into this country, into London, Tibet, but all over China. I want the Minister to outline and the big money coming in to build tower blocks and clearly what more the Chinese have to do to people in hotels. On the subject of hotels, let me say how shocking Tibet and through their influence in this country before it was that InterContinental Hotels went ahead and we as a British Government say, “Enough is enough.” 305WH Tibet10 DECEMBER 2014 Tibet 306WH

10.25 am Chinese leadership determined gradually to eradicate a whole culture. That cannot be allowed and it is an issue Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): It is a pleasure to that must be addressed. The Tibetan flag and national make a contribution, Mr Owen, thank you. anthem are banned. Possession even of a picture of the I thank the hon. Member for Leeds North East Dalai Lama can result in torture and imprisonment. (Fabian Hamilton) for bringing the subject to the House for consideration. As the Democratic Unionist party’s Lady Hermon: Chinese companies are now investing spokesperson for human rights, I am delighted to be in in Northern Ireland. Will the hon. Gentleman confirm a position to contribute to today’s debate. Religious whether his party leader—who is by happy coincidence persecution in Tibet is not only a matter of ethnic or the First Minister in the Northern Ireland Assembly— religious conflict, or discrimination by a majority against makes any representations about Tibet to those Chinese a minority, but is politically motivated and consciously companies before they invest? implemented as a policy to realise political aims. That is what is happening in Tibet, which is why are speaking Jim Shannon: I am not aware of what the First about it today. I am always pleased to see the Minister Minister does, but I suggest that we should have done so in his place, because he is totally committed to addressing and that he needs to do so. Similarly, the hon. Member the issue of religious persecution wherever it may be in for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) the world. I have heard his contributions in the House, mentioned direct contact and using all available but I am also aware of his work and of the many opportunities. I know that the Minister who is here countries that he visits. We appreciate that very much. today does it, and I am sure that he will outline such The issues in Tibet started in the 1950s and heightened issues. throughout the 1960s, and the Dalai Lama and some Even children in Tibet face abuses of their freedom 100,000 Tibetans fled to India. Within a few years, and human rights. Tibetans are not free to protest or nearly all of the more than 500,000 monks and nuns speak openly about their situation, and even peaceful were driven from the 6,000-plus monasteries and nunneries demonstrations are met with heavy-handed military of Tibet, virtually all of which were destroyed. Many crackdowns. In 2008, thousands of Tibetans staged the monks and nuns were tortured, killed, imprisoned or largest protests in Tibet for over 50 years, and forced to disrobe. A few years later, during the cultural demonstrations swept across the entire Tibetan plateau. revolution, any display of religion was prohibited, Chinese authorities arrested an estimated 6,000 protesters; punishable by beatings and imprisonment, and all religious about 1,000 of them are still unaccounted for. Where objects were confiscated and destroyed. are they? What questions have the Government asked A campaign for political re-education, the so-called about those forgotten people and forgotten prisoners—if “patriotic education campaign”—sounds very Chinese— they are still alive? was instituted in the monasteries in 1996 to implement We are all aware of the Tibetan monks who, horrifically, the goals of the third work forum. Political work teams have set fire to themselves as a method of protest to were sent into monasteries and nunneries throughout highlight these issues. Every one of us can remember Tibet, including many where monks and nuns had never those horrific, horrendous stories of people driven to been involved in demonstrations or protest. The work extremes to express themselves and to seek liberty, the teams are frequently accompanied by armed police, democratic process and the right to religious freedom who stand guard over the monks and nuns as the through their deaths. members of the work teams speak. Prisons in Tibet are full of people detained for simply Re-education combines investigation and interrogation expressing their desire for freedom. People have been of individual monks and nuns with lectures by political arrested and sentenced to prison for peaceful acts, such workers. It is clear that individual liberties have been as distributing leaflets or sending information abroad taken away and religious views discounted, with monks about events in Tibet. We take such things for granted and nuns given the correct answers to a series of questions in this country because they are part of our democratic on Tibetan politics, history and religion. They are then right—we are speaking about them democratically here required to take written examinations and sign a written today. Yet those everyday freedoms—those small acts of affidavit of loyalty to China. To pass and to be allowed democracy—that we enjoy, as part of the great nation to remain, monks and nuns must agree that Tibet has of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern always been part of China. Asking a Tibetan to be part Ireland, in Tibet can lead to imprisonment and even of China is like asking me, as a British citizen, to be part torture. The clear violation of human rights is shocking. of Ireland. It is impossible; I would not accede to it and As a country, through this debate today and through neither should they. Monks and nuns must also assent our Government, we have to take action. to characterisations of the Dalai Lama as a criminal, Reporters Without Borders ranked China 175th out unfit to be a religious leader and not worthy of veneration. of the 180 countries on its press freedom index. There Refusing to participate in the re-education is not allowed. are more foreign journalists in North Korea than in Monks and nuns who attempt to boycott the sessions Tibet. Despite what by our own standards we can are arrested and imprisoned. Failure to comply with the describe only as atrocities, this week a top Chinese demands of the work team and to denounce the Dalai official in Brussels told reporters that China does not Lama results in expulsion or arrest. That is a clear need lessons on human rights from the EU; well, actually, violation of individual liberties and an attempt to direct it does. Li Junhua—putting a Northern Ireland accent religious viewpoints. on a Chinese name—a director-general in the Foreign In 2014 the situation in Tibet has not improved, as all Affairs Ministry, has said that China has its own model the Members who have spoken today have outlined. of human rights. It does, but that model does not Every aspect of Tibetan life is under siege from a conform to the model that we have in the free west. He 307WH Tibet10 DECEMBER 2014 Tibet 308WH claimed that China had a clear understanding of how is that the Chinese are astonishingly lucky that that human rights will be carried out in his country and was Government in exile are campaigning for liberation and confident of its own model. freedom in Tibet. There are so many more violent The US diplomat Sarah Sewall recently claimed that models for resistance—so many more disruptive, antisocial there was and potentially threatening ways in which various peoples “not a degree of freedom for Tibetans within China” around the world try to achieve self-determination and freedom of expression—yet the opposition in Tibet has after meeting Tibetan refugees from Nepal and India consistently advocated peaceful change and dialogue and gleaning first-hand information about their lives in with Beijing. It has even accepted that the sovereignty the country before they had to flee because of persecution. of Tibet is probably not going to be re-established and Clearly the ongoing hardships and crimes against them that it is really searching for some kind of accommodation that Tibetans still face on a daily basis back up Ms with the Chinese state. Yet that opposition is met with Sewall’s point. Tibetans cannot enjoy any freedoms, incredibly aggressive language and a heavy-handed and which in turn means they are denied their basic human oppressive response from the Chinese authorities. rights. That is the issue. The Chinese may well measure their version of human rights differently from those of As for the wider situation, I seem to take part in a lot us in the EU and the USA, but that does not mean that of debates—whether on cybercrime, wildlife crime, we should simply sit back and accept the situation, militarisation in east Asia, China’s aggressive relations because ultimately it is not good enough. with some of its neighbours, including Taiwan, Japan It is not good enough that people are denied their and Vietnam, China’s indulgence of various dictatorships freedoms—freedom of expression, freedom of religion in Africa, or the situation in Hong Kong—during which, and freedom of speech, to name just a few. People have in each case, we say that China is not pursuing the fought and died to secure those rights; in 2014, Tibetans responsible and statesmanlike approach we would expect are either fleeing, being imprisoned or being killed to of a new world power or superpower. Yet we never seem try to secure them. We must let the Tibetans know that to join up the dots or sit back to look at the situation they are not struggling in vain or suffering in silence. We and ask, have we had a sophisticated enough policy must do all that we can—at Westminster, in Brussels towards China? Has that policy simply been too focused and on the world stage—to persuade China to change on trade, investment and the economic benefits of our its oppressive ways in its bid for political support. relationships with China—not just as the UK, but as part of the European Union and the international community? Do we now need to wake up to some of the Albert Owen (in the Chair): I will be calling the worrying developments: abuses of human rights, Opposition Front-Bench spokesperson at 10.40 am at suppression of freedom of expression, and aggressive the latest. stances towards—in the case of the people of Tibet—some of the most vulnerable and disempowered people in the 10.33 am world? Do we need a more sophisticated and developed policy towards China? Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): Thank you for allowing me to contribute to the debate, Mr Owen, At the end of his speech the hon. Member for Leeds albeit fairly briefly. The debate is timely and I applaud North East read out a list of specific things he was the hon. Member for Leeds North East (Fabian Hamilton) asking for. If I had to pick out one as the most important, for securing it. it would be to take a lead within the European Union The situation in Tibet is very sad, given the impression on developing a new approach and asking the Chinese we get in the west these days of China as a whole. Government to address the issue of policies toward China’s situation is one of enormous progress, with an Tibet that threaten Tibetan culture. As the European incredible reduction in poverty and a scientific and Union, we are not so subject to the divide and rule intellectual flowering the like of which we do not often approach. Other hon. Members referred to relations see in a country of its size. We ought to celebrate and between this country and China, or between South welcome that. Africa and China or Norway and China. When one country takes a stand, it is more vulnerable than we will Yet when it comes to Tibet, we still see what appears be if we take a collective and collaborative approach to be a throwback to a darker and harsher era in across the international community. China’s history: the catalogue of human rights abuses that hon. Members have referred to, arbitrary and There is much to celebrate in our relationship with unjustified arrests, suppression of freedom of speech China. I know the Minister has enormous expertise on and the systematic undermining of Tibetan culture. We the part of the world we are debating. However, the hear a language that harks back almost to Maoist current situation, in which the international community terminology—reference to “correct views of art” or to appears to be showing a rather aimless indifference “secessionist sabotage”, or the Xinhua news agency towards the plight of the people of Tibet, simply cannot congratulating President Xi on go on. “emphasising the integration of ideology and artistic values”. That post-Maoist language has a chilling tone with 10.38 am regard to Tibet in particular, because it suggests that the Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): As ever, it is a impression of progress and positive development in pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Owen. I China as a whole masks some very negative developments. congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds If I had to say something about the Tibetan Government North East (Fabian Hamilton) on securing this debate. in exile—now with an elected leader in Lobsang Sangay, His long-term commitment to the Tibetan people and as the Dalai Lama has handed over political power—it their cause is outstanding. 309WH Tibet10 DECEMBER 2014 Tibet 310WH

[Kerry McCarthy] We did not hear that much about self-immolations. There have been 133 since 2009, and the vast majority As my hon. Friend said, it is particularly fitting to be of the people involved have died, while details of the debating the subject this morning, as today is human well-being and whereabouts of some of the others are rights day. The UN’s theme for this year’s human right’s not known. The fact that people are prepared to resort day is “Human Rights 365”, which makes the point that to such extreme measures and feel that is the only way we should be concerned about human rights not just on to get their views across is the most harrowing indictment one day a year, but every day of the year. As has been of human rights in Tibet. said, it has been several years since the subject of Tibet The Chinese Government have now criminalised self- was debated in Parliament, so it is useful to make the immolations, rather than responding to the underlying point that it is not a concern that should just pop up reasons why people would resort to such drastic measures. occasionally.As the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Since December 2012, anyone potentially associated Horwood) has just said, Tibet should be raised as an with a self-immolation risks a charge of intentional issue of concern whenever our Government have dealings homicide, which is subject to the death penalty. Family with China, be it a trade mission meeting or another members could be arrested even for their involvement in form of engagement. I hope the Minister can reassure the funeral of someone who self-immolated. Last year, me that that is indeed the case. Lobsan Kunchok received a death sentence, suspended The sovereignty of Tibet is not really on the table at for two years, on such a charge, while more than the moment; the discussion is more about a middle way, 40 Tibetans were sentenced to prison last year. I hope as my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North East the Minister will tell us what representations he has outlined. I should make it clear that the Labour party made about those cases, against the intentional homicide recognises Tibet as part of China, but that does not law and against the use of the death penalty. mean that we cannot support meaningful autonomy for I recognise why the Government are so keen to promote Tibet. The issue can be resolved only by genuine dialogue trade links with China. Our bilateral relationship is between the Government of China and representatives incredibly important and we value it, but that does not of the Dalai Lama, but talks have been stalled since mean we should be silent on human rights. We need a 2010. I do not want to repeat all the questions that have much more strategic engagement that allows the UK to been put to the Minister, but the British Government raise human rights concerns and to meet the Dalai could play an important role in getting those talks Lama without fear of being frozen out. I hope the moving again, and I hope we will hear from the Minister Minister will agree that the Government’s commitment about that. to business and human rights—the business and human As the hon. Member for Cheltenham said, the Chinese rights action plan was published just over a year ago— are fortunate that the approach taken by the Tibetan should mean that no Minister from any Department leaders has been to urge a peaceful solution. They have visits China without being prepared to raise such issues. shown remarkable restraint and taken a measured approach. The Foreign Office’s latest “Human Rights and The Chinese Government should recognise that and be Democracy” report noted prepared to engage with them. “concerns around the consequences of resource extraction and We have heard several strong speeches about the allegations of corruption.” abuse of human rights—particularly the restrictions on British businesses do not tend to operate in Tibet at the freedom of expression and the use of violence as a moment, although we heard from my hon. Friend the means of repression. We have also heard about how the Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey) about InterContinental’s human rights situation seems to be deteriorating and regrettable decision to open a resort in Lhasa. It would about the growing influence of Chinese culture—how be helpful if the Minister told us whether concerns its pervasive impact is gradually making Tibetan culture about corruption and human rights in Tibet have been secondary. That is particularly true of the development reflected in the advice the UK offers British businesses, of Lhasa. and whether the UK uses its trading links with China to I do not want to repeat all those points, but I would address those concerns. reiterate a number of concerns. I was particularly struck I want to touch briefly on environmental considerations, by the number of musicians my hon. Friend the Member which have not been mentioned. Tibet is often referred for Leeds North East mentioned. Often, they are at the to as the third pole, as it is home to the largest concentration forefront of expressing dissent, even though the examples of ice and glaciers outside of the Arctic and the Antarctic, he gave could hardly be regarded as incitement to great providing an invaluable water source but also making political insurgency. The fact that China is cracking Tibet especially vulnerable to the impact of climate down on the arts and cultural diversity by sending change, and meaning that Tibetans face the threat of artists to rural areas to form a “correct view of art” is forced migration. China’s new commitment to action quite a totalitarian response, and we should be very on climate change and its agreement with the US provide concerned about that. welcome leadership on the international stage. Talks are Campaigners have been jailed for messaging each going on in Lima, leading up to Paris 2015, but it is other even about an anti-fur campaign. Bloggers have important that China demonstrate responsible stewardship been jailed. Nuns were expelled from a nunnery last in Tibet and look after the environment there. I would month after they failed to denounce the Dalai Lama be grateful if the Minister updated us—he can do this during a police raid. There are many other examples, in writing, because he has a lot of questions to reply and the fact that I am not going into great detail about to—on any talks the Government have had with the them does not mean we are not hugely concerned—it is Chinese authorities about the Tibetan environment and just that we have heard from the people I mentioned, and Greenpeace’s report earlier this year exposing illegal I am also keen to give the Minister time to respond. mining on the Tibetan plateau. Greenpeace says that 311WH Tibet10 DECEMBER 2014 Tibet 312WH that operation covers 14 times the area of the City of Importantly, we have shown clarity and consistency in London, and it believes that the mining violates water our position on human rights in China. That happens protection laws. through the UK-China human rights dialogue, which My final point is about access for the media, non- the hon. Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell), governmental organisations and other groups wanting who is no longer in his place, mentioned. The UK is one to visit the Tibet Autonomous Region. It is disappointing of a handful of EU member states that engage with that the British embassy’s requests to visit it last year China in that way. It happens also through our Foreign were declined. Perhaps the Minister can update us on and Commonwealth Office human rights report and its the prospects for future visits. The EU special representative quarterly updates; through our work at the United for human rights and a number of diplomatic missions Nations Human Rights Council in Geneva; and through have been permitted. I hope the Minister will agree that actively pressing for an EU-China human rights dialogue. it is important that the UK and the UN High Commissioner Hon. Members rightly raised some individual cases. for Human Rights have discussed with China the possibility During the UK-China human rights dialogue in London of visiting Tibet. I hope the Minister and the British this year, we raised more than 20 individual cases, a embassy will do all they can to support that and visit quarter of which related to freedom of expression. The Tibet. hon. Member for Leeds North East spoke about Dhondup Wangchen, and we have raised his case. He was of 10.47 am course arrested in 2008 for filming a documentary recording the reactions of ordinary Tibetans to the The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Olympic games. Office (Mr Hugo Swire): I congratulate the hon. Member Ethnic minority rights remain a concern; my hon. for Leeds North East (Fabian Hamilton) on securing Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham the debate, particularly given that it is international (Tim Loughton) has consistently raised that issue in human rights day. I pay tribute to his expertise on these relation to Tibet, even when he was a Minister. As he issues, which he spoke about so eloquently. Of course, pointed out, cultural rights are incredibly important in he has two advantages over me: one is that he has met all societies and should be actively protected in all His Holiness the Dalai Lama on a number of occasions; countries. We have discussed ethnic minority issues with the other is that he has actually visited Tibet—something China on numerous occasions, including during the that I have yet to do. UK-China human rights dialogue in May and during The subject commands such interest right across the China’s universal periodic review in October 2013. We House that it deserves rather more than an hour-and-a-half would like further progress on promoting freedom of Westminster Hall debate, and it would be good if we religion and belief in China, particularly in minority could return to the subject. I will try in the time that areas. We regard freedom of thought, conscience and remains to answer all the points raised, but if I miss any belief as a universal human right and, as such, it is a out, I will undertake to write to hon. Members. priority for the FCO across the world. So as to avoid any misunderstanding, I will restate The hon. Member for Leeds North East raised a the Government’s policy on Tibet. As my right hon. number of questions. We continue to encourage dialogue Friend the Prime Minister outlined in Parliament on and we raise human rights concerns. We work through 8 May 2013, our position on Tibet is clear and unchanged the EU, and the EU-China human rights dialogue from that of the previous Government: we regard Tibet happened only last week. We encourage proportionate as part of the People’s Republic of China. We do not security responses in China, as, indeed, we do everywhere support Tibetan independence. else. As to scholarships, we have a big Chevening We have a strong relationship with China, and we programme in China, which I have been actively promoting. understand that, for China, Tibet remains a sensitive Tibetans have taken places on the Chevening scholarship issue. The Chinese Government are well aware of the programme in the past and are welcome to apply again. United Kingdom’s position; in fact, the Prime Minister We commend the work of non-Government groups in reaffirmed it with Premier Li during the UK-China the area of cultural exchanges. I think the British Council summit in London in June. Those high-level discussions could probably do more, and I will ask it to consider form part of a broader engagement with the Chinese what more it could do. The point about the BBC is an Government, in which we seek to ensure that all citizens, issue; it comes just as we have got rid of responsibility including Tibetans, fully enjoy their rights under the for the World Service. It is bombarded with requests Chinese constitution. relating to where it should broadcast around the world. We welcome the significant economic investments the Matters to do with where to broadcast, and programming Chinese Government have made in Tibetan areas, leading and radio, are best addressed to the BBC. to improvements in the standard of living, health care We share the concern of the hon. Member for Leeds and life expectancy, as shown in the fact that the area’s North East about the conviction of Tenzin Delek Rinpoche, gross regional product is estimated to have seen average and about his health. We have raised the matter in annual growth of 8.5% over the last 50 years. Beijing, and I urge consideration of parole on medical We welcome President Xi’s public commitment to grounds. The shadow Minister, the hon. Member for ensure that, by 2020, China is ruled according to the Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) raised the issue of law, respecting and protecting human rights. We would immolations. We had a spate of questions about self- expect that to apply to Tibetans as much as to people in immolations about a year ago, when there was a series Shanghai, Wuhan or Beijing. However, as the Chinese of them. It is not something that we should take our Government have acknowledged, proper implementation eyes off. We urge the Chinese authorities to ensure the will be key, so we, along with our EU partners and protection of their citizens’ constitutional rights in line the United Nations, will follow those matters closely. with the international frameworks to which China is a 313WH Tibet10 DECEMBER 2014 Tibet 314WH

[Mr Hugo Swire] of the moment, such as combating Ebola and—this is timely—today’s London summit, hosted by the Prime party. The development of civil society and the application Minister, on ending the online sexual exploitation of of human rights under the rule of law are essential to children. Our relationship with China is dynamic and China’s long-term prosperity and stability, and it is with must be carefully balanced, but I utterly reject the point deep concern that we note that at least 130 Tibetans that we are in some way subjugating our principles on have attempted self-immolation, often fatally, since February human rights because of Chinese money. It is not the 2009. case at all. The hon. Members for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey) and for I want to reiterate the Government’s position on His Bristol East talked about the Intercontinental hotel in Holiness the Dalai Lama. The Dalai Lama is recognised Lhasa and our advice to British businesses about investment. worldwide as an important religious figure and esteemed We encourage all British companies to be aware of the Nobel laureate, having been awarded the peace prize in human rights risks in the countries where they propose 1989. Given that he has stated publicly that he does not investing. Our overseas business risk guide for China seek Tibetan independence, we encourage the Chinese provides information on key risks, including human Government and Tibetan interest groups to seek a rights risks, that UK businesses may face when operating peaceful resolution to their differences through a resumption in China. Last September, we were the first country to of dialogue. Dialogue with non-governmental organisations publish a national action plan on business and human and interest groups is something that the British rights, setting out our commitments as a Government Government undertake as a matter of course in every to implementing the UN guiding principles. country that we engage with. As part of that, I met a I want to deal head-on with the question raised by number of Tibetan groups in June, and my officials the hon. Members for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) consulted them ahead of our human rights dialogue in and for Vauxhall about whether there is a binary choice May. We will continue to use broad-based engagement between human rights and investment in doing trade as an integral part of promoting our values around the with China. I utterly reject that. I do not think that world. there is such a choice, and I do not apologise for this Government’s desire to rebuild the economy as part of Kate Hoey: The Minister has not said anything about our long-term economic plan to attract increasing inward his or the Government’s view of the Confucius institutes investment from China. That is critical to renewing our and the university funding issue. national infrastructure. Bilateral trade is as important to companies in my constituency as it is to the constituencies Mr Swire: May I write to the hon. Lady on that? I of the hon. Gentleman and the hon. Lady. I do not want to conclude. think that we have anything to apologise for on that. We Our long-standing position remains that we do not are robust in maintaining a dialogue with the Chinese support Tibetan independence, but we believe that Tibet’s Government on a range of issues, and Tibet is of course long-term stability is best achieved through respect for one of those. universal human rights and genuine autonomy within We work increasingly closely with the Chinese the framework of the Chinese constitution, so we continue Government on various issues. We are both members of to engage actively and constructively with the Chinese the UN Security Council, and we work together as part Government as they work to improve human rights and of the E3 plus 3 process on Iran. The hon. Member for the rule of law across China, including in Tibet. I thank Bristol East mentioned climate change; we have invested the hon. Member for Leeds North East for this opportunity an enormous amount in our relationship with the Chinese to re-state the Government’s position, and other hon. in relation to combating climate change. It would simply Members for their remarks today. I am sure that they not be possible, as she pointed out, to reach any kind of will keep questioning the Government, as is their duty meaningful global deal at next year’s COP 21 in Paris and right. I in turn will, as I said, undertake to write to without a constructive approach from Beijing. We need them to answer the questions I did not have time to to work side by side with the Chinese on global challenges address in this morning’s extremely good debate. 315WH 10 DECEMBER 2014 Sickle Cell Anaemia 316WH

Sickle Cell Anaemia way of providing treatment. I have had extensive contact over the past seven years or so with the Wolverhampton 11 am sickle cell care group. It provides hugely needed and valuable support for sufferers, which may be anything Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab): from helping patients to deal with different governmental It is a pleasure to debate this matter under your agencies and helping their families through crises when chairmanship, Mr Owen. Sickle cell anaemia affects an they have to be admitted to hospital, to a broader estimated 12,000 to 15,000 people in the UK and around advocacy role. The group praises many NHS staff locally, 400 people in the west midlands, where my constituency but their biggest and most consistent complaint is about lies. The associated condition, thalassaemia, affects around lack of understanding of the condition among GPs, 1,000 people, although hundreds of thousands more in A and E staff and some other NHS staff, leading to our country carry the trait for these conditions. They pain and delay for sufferers and bad consequences for mainly, but not exclusively, affect the Afro-Caribbean their families. community. The group told me about Sharon, a single parent of Sickle cell anaemia is the most common genetically two children under the age of 10 who has full sickle cell inherited condition in the UK. Roughly one baby every disease and is in frequent crisis. Every time she is day is born with the condition in our country. There is admitted to hospital, there is a desperate scramble no known cure and for those who have it, the symptoms among friends and relatives to ensure care for her can vary from relatively mild, infrequent pain to much children. There is no proper system in place to support more serious episodes of crisis, frequent hospital admissions, her children, and the stress on her and her family is strokes, often in very young people, organ damage and enormous. She discharges herself from hospital early, reduced life span. At the heart of the debate about often before proper treatment is complete, because she treatment for the condition lies one simple question: has to look after her children, so the whole pattern soon why, with all the progress that has been made—there begins again. Is there not a better way to manage has been progress—is there still such variability in the Sharon’s pain than through frequent hospital admissions treatment for sufferers, leading to enormous and debilitating and incomplete treatment? If she does have to be admitted, pain, unnecessary and expensive hospital admissions should there not be a better system of support for her and damaging consequences for the families of those children? who suffer from sickle cell anaemia? The group also told me about a local man in his 40s Some hospitals and some specialist care units do a who has gone for years without treatment for bleeding fantastic job, but patients with sickle cell anaemia do at the back of his eyes as a result of sickle cell disease. not want islands of excellence. They want an excellent His sight is now at risk, but earlier treatment might have system that offers high quality integrated care that brought about a different outcome. minimises hospital admissions, manages pain treatment and enhances quality of life wherever they live in the The Sickle Cell Society told me about a patient who country. The experience of patients, as told to me and was costing the NHS a fortune through repeated hospital to others, is that we are still a long way from having a admissions, exacerbated by the fact that her children system in place that delivers that standard of care slept in the one bed in her flat and she did not have wherever people live. a bed. Eventually, the charity was able to help her to buy her a bed and that made a huge difference. The I pay tribute to the work of the Wolverhampton cost of her hospital admissions could have paid for a sickle cell care and social activity centre based in Bilston hundred beds. in my constituency and to the other patient-led groups around the country, to the Sickle Cell Society, which is We will never reach the stage where no patient with the national organisation that speaks up for sufferers, sickle cell anaemia needs to be admitted to hospital, but and to the work of the all-party group on sickle cell getting the care right has the potential to reduce hospital and thalassaemia, which is chaired by my hon. Friend admissions, making the condition easier to manage for the Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington the patient and saving the NHS a considerable amount (Ms Abbott). of money. The fact that there is no cure does not mean that good professional care cannot make a difference. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): The right hon. That brings me to the national picture and the peer Gentleman and the House know that people are living review of specialist care carried out by the west midlands longer. On average, people live into their 80s or thereabouts, quality review service and the UK Forum on Haemoglobin but life expectancy for those with sickle cell anaemia is Disorders, which was published last year. The review 40 to 50, which is better than it was. Can the Minister visited 29 hospitals and reviewed the care provided. The and the NHS do more with private pharmaceutical aim of the care standards that have been developed is companies to try to find a method of prolonging their quite simple: there should be specialist haemoglobinopathy life? It may not be as good as 80, but it could certainly teams based in hospitals, backed up by a local better than 40 to 50. haemoglobinopathy team. In other words, the system should have both the expertise to offer the best care and Mr McFadden: That is a very good point. Shortened properly connect primary and hospital care. That is a life span is one effect of the condition, and there is good aim, but the reality is much more varied and certainly more to do on the research and treatment therein is one of main causes of frustration for sickle fronts. cell disease sufferers and the organisations that speak Organisations such as those I mentioned are doing a out for them. tremendous job in explaining what the condition means The peer review process found instances of excellent for sufferers, calling for more attention to it, and pressing joined-up practice. It found committed staff going the for better training for NHS staff and a more rounded extra mile to deliver the best care, but it also found 317WH Sickle Cell Anaemia10 DECEMBER 2014 Sickle Cell Anaemia 318WH

[Mr McFadden] agree to commission a departmental analysis on whether free prescriptions for sickle cell sufferers would cost overstretch, patchiness, breakdowns in care pathways money or lead to net savings because they would reduce and an unacceptable degree of variability across the avoidable hospital admissions? country. The report says: What of how sickle cell care is to be delivered in the “Cooperation between acute and community nursing teams future? NHS England is currently the body responsible was sometimes very good but this was not universal. The availability for commissioning care for rare diseases. That is sensible, of social work and psychology support was variable”. because sufferers might be concentrated in different It continued: parts of the country and sometimes there may be few “In many teams there were inadequate numbers of nursing sufferers. However, a review is taking place into how staff for the number of patients, or in some cases no acute nurse specialist at all. Even where these posts were in place they often that will be done in the future, the results of which are had a very high workload which included inappropriate tasks” due next year. There are three possible models: continuing such as with national commissioning, co-commissioning with clinical commissioning groups locally, or leaving it all to “filling in benefit forms…with very poor cover arrangements.” CCGs. Given that concern already exists about the large The peer review process also found that, particularly in variation in the quality of treatment, knowledge of the non-haematology parts of the system, patients condition and the priority given to it, sickle cell organisations “perceived they were viewed as ‘second class’ haematology patients.” fear that a move to only local CCG commissioning will That point about how sickle cell patients view their exacerbate the problems. Can the Minister ensure that own experience is critical. They often feel that they are the way treatment is organised in future is in line with treated either with a lack of understanding or, even the central aim of the peer review exercise—to deal with worse, sometimes with suspicion when they try to explain the variability of treatment issue—rather than its being their condition or arrive at A and E in need of urgent organised in such a way as to make it more difficult? I pain relief. Lack of understanding can lead not only to repeat that our aim should be a system that makes the poor care, but to patients feeling they have not been best the norm, rather than balkanising care and creating treated with dignity and that their need for treatment is a lottery, depending on where sufferers live. not respected. I do not need to remind the Minister that the very Sickle cell anaemia is an issue that deserves more principle of the NHS means there should be no such attention than it has received and a greater priority in thing as first-class and second-class patients. I do not the delivery of high-quality health care. In some ways, it want to see anyone treated as, or feeling as though they is less about knowing what the best care looks like and have been treated as, a second-class citizen. The whole more about ensuring that it is delivered to the highest basis of the NHS, paid for collectively with treatment standard throughout the country, regardless of where on the basis of need, is that everyone is a first-class patients live. The condition also requires some smart, citizen. If there are sufferers of a genetically inherited joined-up thinking between different agencies. Repeated condition who do not feel they are being treated as hospital admissions because of a lack of a bed to sleep such, that is not acceptable and something we should on is not a smart way to deal with a condition such as take very seriously indeed. sickle cell. Another issue identified by the peer review process is Sufferers have to put up with a life of pain, but good poor quality of data. That leaves us unsure about the treatment, the right information and the right lifestyle number of sufferers and unsure, beyond emergency can make an enormous difference. That treatment, admissions, about the resources devoted to treating the information and help vary so much is not acceptable. condition. How can we ensure that there is the right Dignity and respect are essential for all NHS patients: treatment if we do not know how many sufferers there sickle cell patients feeling they do not always get that are or where they are? What is the Minister doing to should be a concern for us all. It is time we ensured that improve those clearly identifiable data problems? the best care is available to all sufferers, delivered by a The peer review made a number of good and important system that understands the condition, fully respects recommendations about access to specialist care, staffing the patient and allows sufferers to live as full a life as levels, training, psychological support and managing possible. I hope the Minister can respond to the issues I the important transition between paediatric and adult have raised today in a way that makes that more likely. care. Those issues are absolutely central to the experience On the issues for which he does not have immediate of sickle cell patients. Can the Minister tell us this answers, I hope he will go back to the Department and morning what is happening to those peer review press his officials to make sure the changes we know are recommendations? Will he undertake to go through needed happen. them not in a general way, but point by point, and to give a progress report to the House if not today, then 11.16 am soon and in writing? Such a report would be welcomed by sufferers and would ensure that there was follow-up The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, on these important recommendations. Innovation and Skills (George Freeman): It is a great Then there is, for patients, the basic cost of living pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Owen, with the condition. To live with sickle cell is to live with and to respond to the right hon. Member for pain, and that often means frequent prescriptions. For Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden), whom I some patients, the cost can be prohibitive. This is not congratulate on securing the debate. I hugely welcome just a matter of money, but of behaviour. If people do the opportunity to discuss this issue. not use their pain relief efficiently because they cannot Sickle cell anaemia is a really terrible condition and afford more, it can affect their condition. I appreciate diagnosis for all those who are affected, but especially the cost pressures on the NHS, but will the Minister for our African and Afro-Caribbean communities. I 319WH Sickle Cell Anaemia10 DECEMBER 2014 Sickle Cell Anaemia 320WH want to start by acknowledging the work that the right One option for patients is a stem cell transplant, hon. Gentleman has done for his constituency and his which requires genetically matched stem cell units, either community, and I join him in paying tribute to the from bone marrow donated by an adult donor or through all-party parliamentary group on sickle cell and stem cells harvested from cord blood. In the past four thalassaemia, chaired by the hon. Member for Hackney years, the Government have provided an additional North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott). I also pay £12 million of new money to help with transplant tribute to the Sickle Cell Society, the Wolverhampton services. The Department of Health, working in partnership sickle cell care and social activity centre and the patient with NHSBT and the Anthony Nolan charity, has groups. As with so many rare diseases, it is the advocacy overseen the delivery of improvements way above what of the few that in the end leads to changes in mainstream we originally anticipated. provision, and I am serious about paying tribute to that. The achievements include the following. More than The right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East 60% of black, Asian and minority ethnic patients are made a number of important points that I will try to able to find a well matched donor now, compared with deal with in detail. If I run out of time, perhaps he 40% at the beginning of the Parliament, and 258 more would allow me to follow them up in more detail in UK patients received a potentially curative stem cell writing. transplant in 2013-14 than in 2010-11. The process for I stress that for those who have had a sickle cell stem cell provision has been significantly streamlined, diagnosis, it is a life-changing moment. All of us who with single access searching in both England and Wales. are involved in policy making should not take our eyes I am delighted to say that there are now 60,000 young off the personal suffering that patients—those with the donors on the so-called fit panel, whose volunteers are diagnosis—and families and loved ones experience. Some eight times more likely to have donated stem cells than 250,000 people in the UK carry the sickle cell trait, with other registry volunteers. about 15,000 affected by sickle cell anaemia, as the right Increasing use of UK-sourced cord blood to meet the hon. Gentleman knows. For those affected, it can mean needs of UK patients is crucial. This year, more than a life of constant pain management, including, often, 25% of cord blood transplants will use donations from extensive periods of hospitalisation when the pain is UK donors, costing about half the price of imported bad, blood transfusion and red cell therapy, and tiredness, units. That compares with 10% in 2010. The time taken dizziness, palpitations, jaundice and gallstones. All those to provide stem cells from adult donors has improved. in combination mean that people are denied the quality The right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East of life that the rest of us take for granted. knows that that is a crucial issue. Samples for confirmatory However, as the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim HLA—human leukocyte antigen—typing are provided Shannon) pointed out, the worst aspect of all is a from more than 80% of donors within 15 days now, substantially reduced life expectancy. Even today, sickle compared with 35% in 2010. cell sufferers will, on average, survive until their 40s or The NHS and its key delivery partners are committed 50s. Even though that is a massive improvement on the to continuing service improvement—I will say more position 40 years ago, when the average life expectancy about that in a moment—in collaboration with patients was only 14 years of age, it is still a shock when the rest and patient group representatives, which is crucial. In of us are expecting to live very much longer than that. the NHS today, if a child is diagnosed with sickle cell We can only pay tribute to the bravery shown by the anaemia, they will be referred to a care team in a people who have to deal with all the problems that this specialist sickle cell centre. Those are specialist units condition brings. However, bravery and resilience are usually based, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, in not enough; we need to look at the way in which we large hospitals and staffed by front-line health care support and treat people and bring on innovative care professionals with a high level of expertise in treating pathways and medicines. That is why we are continuing people with sickle cell anaemia. A detailed treatment to invest in improving services, especially blood, bone and care plan, which outlines future medical care, is marrow and stem cell services, which are vital for the now drawn up for each patient, and parents are given condition. information and support to help them to manage their child’s condition. Let me say something about what we are doing. In England, NHS Blood and Transplant provides blood Due to the complexity of sickle cell anaemia, for transfusion services. There is targeted donor recruitment, multidisciplinary teams are now assembled. Typically, extended donation testing, and supplements, through a they include paediatricians, haematologists, clinical national frozen blood bank suitable for the long-term psychologists, social workers and specialist nurses. The storage of blood for those with rare conditions. NHSBT’s purpose of the care plan is to avoid sickle cell crises and therapeutic apheresis services provide a range of services to provide adequate pain relief when a crisis does occur, to patients through NHS trusts from its six units situated as well as reducing the risk of serious complications across England, in Bristol, Liverpool, Oxford, Sheffield, developing, such as infections, stroke and other associated Manchester and Leeds. Those units undertake procedures symptoms of sickle cell anaemia. that provide direct treatment to patients with a range of Clearly, we want to see improvements in health care medical conditions, as well as collecting stem cells from services for all types of patients. The right hon. Gentleman both patients and donors. Therapeutic apheresis treatments made that point well. The Government have committed and services provide both life-saving and life-enhancing to specific strategic plans in key areas. One of those treatments for patients referred in sickle cell crisis plans is “The UK Strategy for Rare Diseases”, which or for ongoing sickle cell management. NHSBT is covers sickle cell anaemia. The strategy sets out a shared working with commissioners further to improve access UK vision for all those affected by rare diseases. It is to automated red cell exchange for sickle cell patients as owned by each country in the UK and commits them to part of those services. more than 50 commitments. The strategy focuses on 321WH Sickle Cell Anaemia10 DECEMBER 2014 Sickle Cell Anaemia 322WH

[George Freeman] to look at the health economics of free prescriptions in terms of short-term costs unlocking longer-term five areas: empowering patients, identifying and preventing savings. I cannot prejudge the outcome of that, but I rare diseases, diagnosis and earlier intervention, the role will happily look into the issue. of research and, most importantly of all, co-ordination In the three minutes left to me, I want to touch of care. As I have said, people suffering from long-term on a couple of the specific points that the right hon. conditions are resilient, but that resilience can easily be Gentleman made. How do we promote understanding undermined by the constant to-ing and fro-ing that and get sickle cell disease higher up the agenda? The occurs when a patient’s care pathway is not properly 100,000 genomes project also includes a substantial managed. investment in training in rare diseases for clinicians across the NHS as we launch our genetic medicines Mr McFadden: I thank the Minister for outlining the service. NHSBT and the Anthony Nolan charity continue nature of the specialist care teams that are in place. He to promote donations of blood and stem cells, but there is right, but the critical point made by the report from is also the issue of the training that goes with that. The the peer review exercise was that although that approach Department of Health is working with those key delivery worked well in some places, it did not work as well in partners to see what more can be done to improve not others. The specialists whom he talked about—the specialist only donation, but the understanding of the condition consultants and specialist nursing staff—were not always and the training across the system. there in sufficient numbers, and there is still something The right hon. Gentleman asked what measures of a lottery, some might say, or at least unacceptable were being put in place to support care for people with variability in the quality of treatment and the understanding long-term conditions. Our aim is to make the NHS of the condition, depending on where the patient among the best in Europe at supporting people with lives. I therefore want to press the Minister on the long-term conditions such as sickle cell disease. In the recommendations from the peer review exercise, which past, we have not done as well in that area as we would were all about making the best the norm. What have liked. Through the mandate, we have asked NHS will he and the Department do to ensure that those England to make measurable, tangible progress and recommendations are followed through on in that way? commitments to supporting people with ongoing health problems to live healthily and independently. The NHS George Freeman: The right hon. Gentleman makes a outcomes framework contains a range of improvement good point. I have my eye on the clock, and I will deal areas, and I will happily ask it to give me a progress with it. report on that work. I conclude my opening remarks by saying that it is no NHS England is tasked with responding to the UK longer acceptable to make the patient fit the pathway. rare diseases strategy. Earlier this year, as the right hon. We need to fit the pathway around the nature and Gentleman will be aware, it issued a statement of intent progression of the disease in patients. These patients in that sets out how it intends to play its part in delivering particular have to see a wide range of professionals, and that strategy; and in the recent NHS England “Five we need to look at that model. The final thing that I Year Forward View”, it has set out various commitments want to mention in terms of our strategic response is on exploring specialist centres for rare diseases to improve the genome project. We are funding 100,000 full genome the co-ordination of care for patients in line with the sequences, to be put together with phenotypic data, strategy. I understand that NHS England will be looking with cancer and rare diseases as the initial focus. I am to those specialist providers to develop networks of confident that that will quickly start to unlock some services, integrating different organisations and services insights into possible preventions and new treatments. around patients. As I said, I will happily ask for a The right hon. Gentleman made a number of important progress report and share it with the right hon. Gentleman. points, and I want to acknowledge them. If I cannot Possibly we will have a chance to debate that in a format deal with all of them now, I will come back to him in similar to this. writing. He made points about the lack of understanding I again pay tribute to the right hon. Gentleman’s among GPs across the system; the need for better care leadership on this issue. I think that the advocacy of pathways to try to reduce hospital admissions; the Members of Parliament and particularly those with importance of data underpinning our understanding of high concentrations of patients who are especially heavily good outcomes, best and worst practice and variability; affected by this condition, along with that of patient and the important insights in the report. I want to come groups and charities, will be seen in years to come to back to his two specific requests. I would be delighted to have played a major part in helping to drive new care ask the various organisations involved to give me a pathways and the integration of research, medicine and progress report on where they have got to in implementing care, so that patients who are suffering are given the the various measures, and I will obviously share that support that they need. with him; perhaps we will have an opportunity to debate it. I will also happily ask NHS England and 11.28 am the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence Sitting suspended. 323WH 10 DECEMBER 2014 Ofsted 324WH

Ofsted “the clear messages about acceptable standards of performance must be paired with more ways to spot problems early on and a demonstrably consistent approach to tackling underperformance when it occurs.” [DR WILLIAM MCCREA in the Chair] Ofsted responded, in a sense, to those comments on 2.30 pm page 25 of its annual report: “We are also taking action to improve the quality of inspection.” Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): It is a pleasure to introduce a debate on the accountability of That is an implicit acceptance of the fact that, hitherto, Ofsted, not least because Her Majesty’s chief inspector’s the quality of inspection has not been sufficiently good. annual report was published today. Few issues can be The report states that more important for our country than standards and “from next year, Ofsted will contract directly with inspectors, attainment in education. Ofsted plays, and has played, a rather than through third party providers. This will enable Ofsted pivotal role in trying to ensure that all our schools are to take direct control of the selection, quality assurance and stretched to demonstrate excellence in what they do, development of its inspection workforce.” and that they are held to account publicly for their Having provided some background, I want to draw failures and shortcomings. attention to what has happened to a secondary school At the start of such a debate, one can do little better in my constituency. In today’s annual report, the chief than to refer to the chief inspector’s conclusion in inspector states: today’s report, in which he states: “Over 170,000 pupils are now in secondary schools rated inadequate, around 70,000 more than in 2012.” “We are at a watershed moment in the history of our education system. As we near the next general election, no major political On that basis, more secondary schools are becoming party is talking about reversing the trend towards the greater inadequate at a time when everybody is saying that we autonomy that our schools now enjoy. have to improve standards. My concern is that some of I believe the time has now come to move away from the debate the judgments about whether schools are inadequate or that has raged for the past five years about school structures and good are extremely subjective. towards a sharper focus on what works in all schools, regardless of their model of governance or status. Pupils at Ferndown upper school in my constituency The essential ingredients for success are no secret and have are among that cohort of 70,000. When the school was been well documented from time immemorial—strong leadership, inspected on 24 and 25 November 2010, it was rated a positive and orderly culture, good teaching and robust assessment good, which is the second highest of the four categories. systems.” In its report on that inspection, Ofsted stated: I want to concentrate on that last phrase. Without “Ferndown Upper is a good school that has improved appreciably robust assessment systems, it is difficult for Ofsted to since the last inspection and has the capacity to improve further.” demonstrate that it is objective and consistent. Ofsted The report also states: must be accountable publicly for its actions and judgments, and particularly for ensuring the factual accuracy of the “There is a rising trend in students’ attainment and the majority of students make good progress regardless of their background, data on which such judgments are made. Only then can starting points or special educational needs. Teaching is good and we be sure that the assessments it makes are robust. there is a strategic policy to ensure that regular and systematic On 30 October this year, the National Audit Office assessment takes place in all subject areas.” published a report by the Comptroller and Auditor According to the report, General on oversight and intervention in academies “examination results for 2010 show a continuing trend of and maintained schools. The NAO states: improvement…there has been a significant increase in the number “Our public audit perspective helps Parliament hold government of students attaining five A* to C grades at GCSE, including to account and improve public services.” English and mathematics. This figure has risen by 12 per cent As the report makes clear, it has been the policy of the since last year and is now above the national average.” Department for Education since 2010 that a maintained The report goes on to say: school with sustained or serious underperformance should “The school has worked hard to improve attendance and has put normally expect to become a sponsored academy. A in place monitoring and support systems”. sponsored academy is directly accountable to the Secretary of State rather than to the local authority. The latest It also states: figures from the NAO show that there are some 4,200 “The headteacher and his leadership team have a clear vision academies in England, and that 17,300 maintained schools for the school. They are committed to driving through a range of are still overseen by local authorities. Academies have improvements to raise standards and develop students as ‘confident, been an important vehicle for improving standards. independent learners and responsible citizens’.” They have helped to ensure that the majority of schools Just over three years later, another Ofsted report was that Ofsted rates inadequate improve by their next published. The school has the same head teacher and inspection. chair of governors, and, speaking as the Member of As the NAO reminds us, however, 1.6 million of the Parliament, there is no dispute among local people 7 million children aged four to 16 are still educated at about the fact that the school, although by no means schools that are not rated good or outstanding by perfect, has not deteriorated but has improved during Ofsted. Against that background, we must be concerned those three years. In the inspection of 9 and 10 January by the NAO’s conclusion that the Department for Education 2014, Ofsted rated the school as inadequate, which is has not demonstrated that the £382 million of taxpayers’ the lowest of the four grades. Ofsted said that the money that was spent on oversight and intervention in school had “serious weaknesses” and stated: 2013-14 is delivering value for money. The NAO states “Achievement is inadequate because both past and current that students have not made sufficient progress, especially in English.” 325WH Ofsted10 DECEMBER 2014 Ofsted 326WH

[Mr Christopher Chope] subcontractor. Does he agree that the answer to improving the consistency and quality of Ofsted is to ensure that It stated that teaching was inadequate and that leaders all inspectors are directly engaged, as Sir Michael Wilshaw “have not taken the actions needed to improve teaching and has recommended in recent months? achievement, particularly in English”. The school was, understandably, incensed that it had Mr Chope: Indeed, Sir Michael Wilshaw has been marked down in such an arbitrary fashion. recommended that, and I assume that the only reason he has done so is because in his experience there has not Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): What has happened been such consistency and quality assurance under the to the school’s GCSE results since 2010? What happened old regime. I support his judgment on that, but it is no to the number of pupils receiving five A* to C grades in consolation for a school that has fallen foul of the old the period between the two inspections? and inconsistent regime. Future improvements may lead Mr Chope: I do not have those figures in my head, but to more consistency; indeed, the purpose of this debate I have figures showing that, in the period since the is to try to find out what can be done to ensure consistency. inspection, there has been a significant increase in GCSE So much turns on Ofsted’s judgment of a particular performance at A* to C. Those figures compare very school. favourably with many other schools in Dorset that are What happens if a school is dissatisfied with an rated not inadequate but good. If in due course I look inspection? All it can do is appeal. Under Ofsted’s at the detailed material I have here, I might be able to internal appeals process, Ofsted inspectors judge the answer the hon. Gentleman’s specific question. work of other Ofsted inspectors. In the case of Ferndown The school and its governors decided to appeal against upper school, a more junior Ofsted inspector judged the what they regarded as an inadequate conclusion to the work of a more senior inspector, which I would submit inspection. The report was published on 19 March is quite an invidious position to be put in—it certainly 2014, and when the head distributed it to parents, as he lacks the transparency and objectivity that we should is obliged to do, he said that the inspectors had ignored demand of such organisations. various issues. He said that, although The school then appealed to the Independent Complaints “there remain areas for improvement, the Governors and Senior Adjudication Service for Ofsted, which deals with appeals Leadership Team of the school share with the whole staff the against Ofsted. Unfortunately, the ICASO is effectively belief that this inspection was unfair and deeply unjust…We toothless because it cannot adjudicate on the important knew and accepted that English had under-performed”. issues. The school made what is called a stage 4 complaint, He stated that the school was taking action about that, which said, for example, that the inspectors who went to which is why the school was the school made notes and said orally to the school that “predicting…good results in English this summer”. they found that the pupils’ behaviour was good and that Indeed, the school did get good results in English in the there were no examples of bad behaviour, but that they summer of 2014, and the head expressed concern about changed their judgment at a later stage in the process predictions for the future: and said that they were concerned that there had been “a point the inspectors seem to have ignored. Instead they focused examples of bad behaviour. on data from the last 3 years, including 2012, the year in which Not surprisingly, the school said, “Well, let’s see grade boundaries were suddenly changed leading to a national where those examples of bad behaviour were noted by outcry. This directly contradicts their own guidance which urges the inspectors at the time.” The school was told, “That’s inspectors not to focus just on the last 3 years but to take into account current progress. all confidential information and it’s not available under freedom of information.” The school raised that issue Inspectors also appear to have ignored the wealth of opportunity that the school continues to offer through the wide variety of with ICASO. The response from ICASO, which came trips, activities, clubs and achievements that cannot be measured through in the summer, stated that the complainant’s as easily as English results.” concerns relating to the Freedom of Information Act lie He drew a contrast with the inspector’s report from entirely outside ICASO’s remit, so it was not able to 2010, saying that look at that. ICASO also said that it is not within its remit to overturn Ofsted judgments or to scrutinise its “everyone who knows the school well would say that it is actually a better school today than in 2010!” inspection criteria. Indeed, the only thing ICASO can do is look at the process, which is not really what we One of the concerns the head and the governors have want in an appeals system. is that Ofsted compared the school’s attendance and exclusions—the inspection was carried out not by Ofsted Once a school has gone through that stage and had inspectors but by Tribal, a subcontractor to Ofsted—with its ICASO adjudication, what can it do next? All it can secondary schools that were not comparable. Ferndown do is send the matter to the parliamentary ombudsman. upper school has only years 9, 10, 11 and a sixth form, If ever there was the long grass, it is the parliamentary whereas the schools with which Ofsted compared it also ombudsman—I am not insulting him, but the parliamentary have years 7 and 8. Obviously, in years 7 and 8, as ombudsman, again, can only consider administrative national figures make clear, attendance is better and processes. Because of his work load, a complaint referred exclusions are fewer. Ofsted was not comparing like to the parliamentary ombudsman is unlikely to be with like, which is a fundamental error. determined for a significant period of time, by when the school will have a completely different cohort of pupils. Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): I congratulate That does not seem to be an adequate process of the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate. Using the accountability. I would be interested to know whether evidence of one school, he seems to be saying that there the Minister—whom I am delighted to see in his place— are concerns about standards within Ofsted. He just agrees and whether he has any proposals for change, mentioned that the inspection was carried out by a because the more emphasis we put on the regulatory 327WH Ofsted10 DECEMBER 2014 Ofsted 328WH and inspection process, the more important it is that it school on 9 and 10 May 2013, when just over a year should be seen to be objective and above reproach. The later, in July 2014, it became clear that what was alleged trouble is that the consequences of such judgments feed to be a really good school was far from that? into the school’s morale and the esteem in which it is I give that as another example of Ofsted’s inconsistency held by potential pupils. That in itself can result in it and lack of accountability. When parents who were suffering to a greater extent. thinking about sending their children to Saltley school The school has now shown, through its results in the and specialist science college looked at the Ofsted report, July exams, a significant improvement in the quality of they must have thought, “This is brilliant; this is fantastic.” its education. That is surely good news, but when one Yet just over a year later, they would have been ashamed looks at the inspector’s follow-up letter, one does not about having made that judgment. get the impression that he is as pleased as the school is Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): I with the progress made and the way in which it is now congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate. outperforming many other schools in Dorset in the Does he agree that the increasing numbers of educational exam league tables. That raises another issue: because practitioners who it is hoped will be on Ofsted teams the school has a grade 4 assessment from Ofsted, while from now on will decrease the likelihood of his experience comparable schools in Dorset have grade 2 assessments— being repeated in the future? that is, good—people immediately reach the conclusion that it is less good than the others. However, because of Mr Chope: I certainly hope so, but whatever system is when those other schools had their inspections, we may in place—this is the essence of the debate—there needs well not be comparing like with like. to be some means of appeal, if needs be, into the substance. In such situations, conciliation and discussion That is one of the problems, which we know is not is much better than formal, adversarial appeals processes. unique to Dorset or to Ferndown upper school. Evidence Ultimately, there must be a way for a school head to from throughout the country shows that Ofsted will engage with an inspector or a group of inspectors and quite often fail to see things in a school that are going say, “Sorry, you’ve got this wrong.” badly wrong. Just to show that the debate is not purely One of the difficulties in the case of Ferndown upper about the Christchurch constituency, I will refer briefly was that the moderation process was not allowed to be to what happened at Saltley school and specialist science developed early on. It was said that because the school college. The International New York Times had an exclusive had been assessed as grade 4, it needed to be dealt with interview with the former principal of that school who first by the inspectorate before the concerns expressed talked about “harassment” from the local board over could be moderated. We need a system that ensures that courses. He referred to the “relentless criticism” that he where schools feel they have been judged incorrectly, faced from a “Muslim-dominated school board”—he they can have that put right in a timely fashion, because being a Sikh—and spoke about how he was eventually there are implications for their viability. In this debate forced to step down as principal. we are talking about publicly funded schools, but if we We now know that that school was the subject of an look at how inspection processes can affect commercial emergency report, “Report into allegations concerning organisations, we can see that the consequences of an Birmingham schools arising from the ‘Trojan Horse’ unjustly bad report may be disastrous for their viability. letter”, which was published in July 2014 and made I am delighted that other people have come along to severe criticisms. In a statement issued to Parliament participate in the debate. When we get to the conclusion, yesterday, the Government drew attention to the gross I hope that the Minister will set out exactly how we can inadequacies of Birmingham city council in dealing improve Ofsted’s accountability to teachers, parents with those and other issues and they have proceeded, as and pupils—everyone involved. near as they can, to put Birmingham city council under Nothing I have said is designed to detract from the special measures. At a time when the Government are importance of ensuring that we have the highest standards talking about the importance of devolving even more in our schools. Standards have been improving, and a power to local authorities, that finding shows that one lot of credit is due to the Minister for Schools, my right of the largest local authorities—I think Birmingham hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil (Mr Laws), who will has more children under its control than any other local respond to the debate, as well as the previous Secretary education authority—is severely lacking. of State for Education, my right hon. Friend the Member One might ask, “What do Ofsted think about Saltley for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove),and the current Secretary school and specialist science college?” It was inspected of State for being vigorous in saying that we must try to on 9 and 10 May 2013 and under every category— move away from a culture in which producer interests achievement of pupils, quality of teaching, behaviour prevail to the disadvantage of the consumer. I am all in and safety of pupils, and leadership and management—it favour of these reforms, but they would be even better if was marked as good. The report said that the school we could get more objectivity into the way Ofsted is was “good” and that: held accountable to the public, to the Secretary of State for Education and ultimately, through the Secretary of “Students made good progress from their low starting points,” State, to this House. and so on. It also said: 3pm “The new head teacher and senior leaders have accurately Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): I identified strengths and weaknesses in the school and have continued congratulate the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) to improve teaching and raise achievement.” on securing this important debate. He has made a We now know that that was substantially wide of the compelling case for ensuring the accountability of Ofsted. mark, yet does anything in Ofsted’s annual report explain He has given a number of examples where it has fallen how it was able to produce that inspection for Saltley short and made arbitrary and subjective decisions. 329WH Ofsted10 DECEMBER 2014 Ofsted 330WH

[Graham Stringer] the service “requires improvement”. Adoption performance was judged “inadequate”, and Of course, Ofsted inspects not only schools but whole “Experiences and progress of care leavers” children’s departments and the protection and care of also “requires improvement”. Finally, it said that children. I will talk about a report that Ofsted produced “Leadership, management and governance” were on Manchester city council’s children’s department on 1 “inadequate”. That is not a glowing report. It was September, but first I want to reiterate what the hon. produced by eight inspectors over a period of about five Gentleman said: inspection and monitoring are vital or six weeks, and it must have been quite expensive. parts of public services. They are necessary parts of the accountability process, and it is important that we get Having complained about the department previously, them right and understand what is happening. I went to the report with some interest, but I have to say—this is the core of my contribution—that I was It is also important that the metrics are right. I will extremely disappointed. The department had had give just one example of how difficult metrics can be. inspections in 2010, 2011 and 2013. The 2013 inspection When the Conservative Government in the early ’90s was on fostering, the 2011 inspection was on adoption, brought in metrics to measure the performance of planning and the 2010 inspection was on safeguarding looked-after departments and introduce a level of accountability, children. Those inspections produced two “good” ratings they said that planning applications should be determined and one “adequate” rating, so they were not cause for within 40 days, and if they were not, the department concern. However, as there had now been a report concerned was seen to be failing. I was leader of Manchester giving an “inadequate” rating, I wanted to look at city council then, and our average time for turning numbers, to see exactly how the service had deteriorated applications round was about 43 days. We were very during the period in question. pleased with that, because there were very few appeals against our decisions. As a lot of work was put in Although there were some numbers in the report, beforehand, the decisions were often better and all they were absolute numbers, telling us how many single parties were happy.However, an arbitrary metric misguided assessments had not progressed, for example—there the public as to the competence of the department. was a number in the report for that. However, that was not compared with any of the previous reports, and the One also has to look at who the inspectors are. My comments were generally things such as “slow”, “quality guess is that people do not start out life deciding to be of care record keeping: not good”, “could do better”, an inspector of planning or an Ofsted inspector. Ofsted “too long to get help” or “too many children waiting for inspectors probably start off in child protection of help”. Not only were there not absolute numbers but it some sort, as a social worker, or as a teacher. Sometimes was not possible to compare the numbers in the report they become inspectors because they have not done so with those in previous reports. well, or have failed, in those professions, and sometimes There was one particularly odd thing. It was not it is because they want more money, but my experience really a metric, but a comment that too many of the is that as a result they often have a jaundiced view of the looked-after children did not go to good schools. The inspection process. One has to be wary, and aware that report did not say how many of the schools in Manchester that is a possibility, when looking at how effective these were good and whether it was possible for all the inspections are and what the accountability should be. looked-after children to go to them. I will talk about Manchester’s children’s services I wrote to Ofsted and asked if it could produce the department, but I want to place on the record that this comparative tables that would enable me to see if the is not a defence of that department. I have been concerned department had gone backwards or forwards, and to about a number of areas; I have written to the council; see what the situation was that had justified the change and I have published statistics that did not show the to “inadequate”. Ofsted replied to me within about a council in the best light with regard to what happened fortnight; I have no complaint about its speed of response. to referred children, because often they were not dealt The response was from Jo Morgan, Ofsted’s regional with quickly enough, and in some cases they were not director, north-west. She said that it was not possible to dealt with at all. produce those tables and she gave the reasons why. I will I have expressed public concern about referred children. quote from her letter: I knew of a number of cases where the culture of the “The recent inspection differs from previous inspections as it department had inhibited the fostering and adoption of has a different methodology. It is therefore not possible to make children: the process was too lengthy; people had not any direct comparisons between judgements. The current single turned up on time, or at all, to interview potential foster inspection framework is an unannounced universal inspection. It parents and adoptive parents; and interviewers often is conducted in a three year cycle and judges local authority asked questions that were intrusive and—to my mind, services for looked after children, alongside the arrangements to and the minds of the potential foster and adoptive protect children. Ofsted acknowledges that the ‘bar’ has been parents—irrelevant. So this is not a mindless defence of raised in two ways. Firstly, ‘good’ is now the minimum acceptable standard. The new framework sets out the criteria for ‘good’ in Manchester city council’s children’s department from respect of the protection of children, the care they receive, and an ex-leader of that department. It is really a case of the arrangements in place to lead and manage services. Any local asking whether we understand more about what is authority that is unable to provide evidence that the characteristics going on in the children’s department after Ofsted’s of good are in place will be will be deemed to ‘require improvement’. inspection. The second aspect of our raising the ‘bar’ relates to our explicit and unrelenting focus on both the experiences of children, young On 1 September, Ofsted said in its report that for people and families and the difference that the help they receive “Children who need help and protection” makes to their lives and life chances. Whilst it is recognised that this methodology presents a challenge to local authorities, our the service is “inadequate”. Similarly, it said that for priority remains the contribution inspection can make to the help, “Children looked after and achieving permanence” protection and care of vulnerable children and young people.” 331WH Ofsted10 DECEMBER 2014 Ofsted 332WH

The philosophy behind that is sound, but if the local a complaint. However, she has had sight of official authority and anybody interested in what is happening documents showing that Ofsted did make the school are to know whether those serious criteria are being aware that she had been in touch with inspectors. met, they have to be able to measure things and put I would like to ask the Minister specifically how my numbers on them, but the letter and the report make no constituent and I can challenge Ofsted about its behaviour, attempt to do that. Therefore, when Ofsted says that the which is unacceptable, a complete breach of trust and methodology presents a challenge to local authorities, I contrary to the whole notion of whistleblowing. would say it makes it impossible for them to know, other than in terms of a generalised report, why they 3.14 pm are succeeding or failing. Unless a percentage or a rate of improvement is given for the speed at which children Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): It is a pleasure are assessed when they are referred to the local authority, to serve under your chairmanship, Dr McCrea. I or for the number of children placed in foster care or congratulate the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) accepted for adoption, it is difficult for the authority to on securing the debate and on his thoughtful and important know what is happening. contribution, in which he sought to outline the experience of a school in his constituency of going through the Ofsted is failing in terms of inspectors’ basic task of Ofsted inspection process. enabling those who want to hold it to account to do so. I intervened on the hon. Gentleman earlier about the One does not have to be too cynical to say that in school’s exam history, and it would have been helpful Rotherham, Rochdale and, previously, Haringey, and a had he been able to tell us a little more about it. Perhaps number of the other terrible situations we have seen in the Minister knows the details and can tell us whether it many of our towns and cities where children were not was a factor in Ofsted’s judgment. Nevertheless, the properly protected by the local authority, the police and hon. Gentleman raised some important issues. others who should have been looking after them, Ofsted had given virtually all the local authorities involved a The hon. Gentleman made the important point that, clean bill of health. After Rotherham was given a clean in making serious judgments about the quality of schools, bill of health, we found that 1,400 children had been we should not forget the wider aspects of schools or the abused. From memory—I did not look it up—Haringey wider curriculum. I certainly agree that no school should had been given an excellent rating before the baby P be able to be rated as outstanding unless it has a broad case. and balanced offer for its pupils, including an excellent cultural offer. Perhaps we need to think more about Mr Chope: The hon. Gentleman makes a powerful that, and I might say more about it later. point. Does he share my hope that the Minister will be The hon. Gentleman mentioned the Trojan horse able to explain how Ofsted was held to account for its affair in Birmingham. I do not intend to go through it manifest failures of judgment in those cases? in any great detail again today, but it would be useful if the Minister told us his view of what has happened Graham Stringer: I am looking forward to the Minister’s since the Trojan horse affair, and of how Ofsted is reply to the hon. Gentleman’s contribution and mine. inspecting schools in the light of the newly introduced After those awful events, I am led to the conclusion need to teach British values in the aftermath of that that, when Ofsted raises the bar, as it puts it, without affair. If he could update us on the Department’s view giving quantified criteria, it is engaged in an exercise of how that is going, that might benefit the House and that is about not inspection and the accountability of would certainly relate very much to Ofsted’s accountability, child protection services, but the protection of Ofsted. which is the subject of the debate. If Ofsted says that Manchester city council or some other local authority is inadequate or requires improvement, I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Blackley and something terrible happens—I sincerely hope it and Broughton (Graham Stringer) on his contribution. does not—Ofsted is not to blame, whereas it clearly He expressed concerns about the quality of inspections could be blamed for the reports it gave on the authorities of children’s services in Manchester. He made some I mentioned earlier. What we are seeing is not an important points about safeguarding and the failure of inspection regime that helps us to understand whether inspections sometimes to pick up problems with our children are being protected, but one that puts out a safeguarding children. Those are serious issues, and the lot of propaganda for its own protection. I look forward Minister will have taken those remarks on board and to the Minister’s response. will want to say something about them. I congratulate the hon. Member for Wells (Tessa 3.13 pm Munt), who was born on the same day as me, although she looks a lot younger. She raised a serious constituency Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): I wish to make a short issue, which should be the subject of a formal complaint. contribution, and the title of the debate enables me to I am sure that she, as a constituency MP, will take that do precisely that. I want to raise a matter on behalf of a up directly, but it would be useful to hear the Minister’s constituent. response. The debate relates to the accountability of Ofsted, As many Members here know, I used to be a teacher, and we all hope that Ofsted inspectors do their work in so I have been through the process of being inspected, a fair, constructive and objective way.However, occasionally, albeit not under the current dispensation. I can tell judgments can go awry, and they sometimes have a Members, and any teacher will agree, that it is not serious impact. necessarily a pleasant experience, but it is a necessary A constituent submitted concerns to Ofsted about experience. I absolutely accept that inspection forms an her son’s school and his treatment in that school. She important part of the process. Before the Minister was assured by an Ofsted inspector in writing that starts looking up how I did in that inspection, let me say Ofsted had not revealed to the school that she had made that I was perfectly happy with how it turned out. 333WH Ofsted10 DECEMBER 2014 Ofsted 334WH

[Kevin Brennan] interested in that, and he noted the 17% fall since 2010 in the numbers entering initial teacher training. I should We should acknowledge that inspection is a stressful be interested in his view of Sir Michael’s remarks. Does process and that head teachers, teachers and even pupils he agree that teacher supply is an emerging issue, and if and parents can find it stressful. Although inspection is so what will he do about it? an extremely necessary process and must focus forensically Under the present Government there have been problems on ensuring that children are not being failed in our relating to the proper relationship between the Department system—a principle that the Opposition absolutely for Education and Ofsted. Indeed, there have been support—we should bear in mind the human side of accusations of an attempt by the Department to politicise things when schools are inspected. Ofsted in the current Parliament, not least because of One of the sad things about discussions of Ofsted is the sacking of its chair, Sally Morgan, and the memo that they are very much based on the headlines we tend from senior advisers to the former Secretary of State to see in the newspapers when things such as the Ofsted suggesting that it might be right to sack Sir Michael annual report are published. Very few people read beyond Wilshaw. Those revelations have led to accusations by the headlines and into the detail of what the chief people speaking on behalf of the Schools Minister—he inspector says in his report. People tend to take up is here this afternoon—of a Government attempt to political positions on what has been said, but Sir Michael politicise Ofsted. The report of 9 October in The Guardian Wilshaw made some extremely sensible remarks in his said: commentary on the annual report, some of which are “A Liberal Democrat source close to schools minister David things we have known for a long time, such as that for a Laws said: ‘The fact is that, Gove, Cummings and others around school to be outstanding it needs great leadership. It is them have been deeply disappointed by Michael Wilshaw’s refusal also necessary for it to have great middle-level leaders; to play ball. This is almost certainly what lay behind their and that depends on the great senior leadership. We previous attempt to politicise the inspectorate.’” could do a lot more to strengthen the role of middle So that is confirmation from the Schools Minister, or leaders, particularly in secondary schools. Sir Michael rather his spokesperson, whom he might perhaps want said in his report today that he is concerned that they to identify—it might have been him; I do not know, but are not making progress and that more children are whoever the source close to him was, I am sure he would being taught in schools rated inadequate. The necessary like to tell us—that the previous Secretary of State and things include good leadership and good teachers, effective his advisers have been involved in an attempt to politicise and accurate assessment, and dealing with such things Ofsted. Of course, that is a dangerous path to take, so as low-level disruption. when the Minister talks about the accountability of Ofsted, perhaps he will tell us how he valiantly fought As a former teacher I do not think it is really possible off the attempts in his Department to politicise it, who to teach without first creating a quiet, orderly environment. was involved in them, and what he is doing to rein in Beyond that, many things are possible and teachers can that tendency in the Department. move on to all sorts of innovative and interesting activities; but it is and always has been the starting point—the That is not to say that Ofsted is a perfect organisation, basis and foundation of the craft of the classroom. I as anyone would admit. Concerns are frequently expressed would not go as far as saying, as we used to when I was to Ministers, shadow Ministers and others. We have teaching, “Never smile until Easter,” but it is necessary heard in the debate some of the concerns about the way to establish the proper quiet and orderly environment in Ofsted inspections are carried out. We need to think a classroom if a teacher is to teach effectively and make about how to move on and reform it. It might help if I sure that learning happens. I understand why Sir Michael say something about Labour policy on Ofsted. The is concerned about low-level disruption; about the stretching Opposition recognise that school inspections play a of able pupils; about many schools’ failure to do enough crucial role in upholding standards in schools, but we to narrow the gap between disadvantaged pupils and oppose the Government’s attempts to politicise Ofsted, those from better-off backgrounds; and—topically, after which the Schools Minister has complained about, because the Government’s announcement today—about the current they would ultimately undermine the integrity and poor careers advice in schools, which is almost universally independence of the schools inspectorate. National systems accepted, except by the Department for Education, to of inspection and accountability should be collaborative have worsened significantly since 2010. rather than confrontational—an issue that perhaps contributes to some of the concerns expressed in the Perhaps the Minister will expand a little further on debate. Otherwise, the effect of inspection could too today’s announcement about the new careers company— often be to narrow children’s educational experience. particularly why it was not put out to tender and how We need to prevent that from happening. We want the choice was made to give a particular sum of money schools to be innovative; we do not want them to to a particular individual and group to run it. I should operate in an accountability framework that makes be interested to know what thinking was behind that. them fear innovating, developing new pedagogies and Was it to do with the time it would take to get that done using new technologies. Of course they must meet the before purdah, or was there a genuine operational, requirements on standards, but we do not want an strategic reason for doing things in that way instead of atmosphere in which schools always play a conservative by the normal governmental tendering process? The part. We want innovation and we need pedagogies to be Public Accounts Committee might be interested to know developed. We need to use and unleash the talents of about that. teachers in what Ofsted called in 2010 the finest generation Sir Michael Wilshaw also talked about governance of teachers we have ever had in this country—albeit one not being strong enough. We all need to listen to that, dreadfully undermined by the Government’s disastrous and to address the issue. He also flagged up a severe policy, with which I understand the Schools Minister concern about teacher supply. I know the Minister is also disagrees, of allowing unqualified teachers in schools. 335WH Ofsted10 DECEMBER 2014 Ofsted 336WH

Labour believes that the role of the schools inspectorate away from where the school is operating. Those schools’ needs to be examined. In government we will ensure policies are being determined from far away and there is that the inspection process is more collaborative and little accountability in the system, so inspecting academy that school improvement involves schools reviewing chains is important. I hope the Schools Minister agrees. one another, and monitoring by the middle tier. We We were not able to persuade the previous Secretary of have talked about creating directors of school standards State or the current one to permit that, but Sir Michael to clear up the muddle that has occurred since the Wilshaw has asked for it and we support it. I hope the present Government’s piecemeal, rapid and politically Schools Minister confirms that he supports that, too, motivated timetable of academisation. What Sir Michael because he seems to support an awful lot of what we say Wilshaw said today about the obsession with structures, nowadays about schools and education policy, in contrast rather than the things that really matter for school with his colleagues in the Department for Education. improvement, was extremely helpful. The name over the Does the Minister agree with Sir Michael Wilshaw, door does not matter. What matters is the quality of who said today that in the last couple of years 70,000 leadership and teaching in a school, not the name and more pupils are being taught in inadequate secondary title. An end to a Government-favoured brand of school schools? If so, what is his policy response and how will be a positive step forward, and I am glad that Sir should we deal with it? Obviously, if that is so—I have Michael said what he did. no reason to believe that the chief inspector of schools is wrong—there needs to be some policy response. It is Mr Chope: On that point, does the hon. Gentleman not adequate simply to say, “Our academisation programme accept, on behalf of the Labour party, that there should and our free schools policy will solve all problems”, not be an obsession with being for or against academies, because we know that is not true. What are we actually free schools or maintained schools, but that we should trying to do to put that right? It is a challenge to all of look at each school on its merits? us, if such a process is occurring. I recognise the improvements made by many schools Kevin Brennan: Yes, I accept the hon. Gentleman’s in recent years, under this Government and the previous proposition that each school should be considered on one, and their raising of standards. That is to be celebrated its merits, but we should be creating a framework of and commended but it is down, principally, to the hard fairness within which schools of all types and denominations work of school teachers, school leaders, governors and can operate, with a fair and proper admissions procedure, others, probably far more than to politicians and education an effective admissions code and a stronger adjudicator policy makers, who often have little experience of the on admissions, to ensure that schools are operating front line—the classroom—and more experience of policy together in a collaborative framework. We do not believe think-tanks. However, if over the past couple of years in using naked market forces to drive schools out of 70,000 more pupils are being taught in inadequate business. We believe in weaker schools being helped by schools, the Government should be concerned about stronger schools in the system and insisting that such that and should have something to say about it. I hope collaboration must happen, because ultimately that is that the Minister has. how an increase is standards is achieved. That is what happened under the framework of London Challenge, Will the Minister update us on what is happening for example, through a collaborative approach, rather about accusations that the Inspiration Trust in Norfolk than relying on creating an over-supply to drive schools was given prior notification of inspection? As has been out of business and, ultimately, putting pupils in ever-failing said, this system has to be fair across the country and and declining schools over time and ruining their lives everybody must have the same notification—or no with an obsession with market forces. Unfortunately, notification—of inspection. I am sure that Members that certainly was the philosophy of the previous Secretary would be grateful for any information the Minister of State and some of his closest advisers. could provide to update the House. Will the Minister comment on the following, from an We will ensure that there is more collaborative work article in The Guardian on Tuesday 9 December? on school improvement, involving schools reviewing one another and monitoring by the middle tier; we have “In September 2013, an Ofsted stipulation that inspectors should ‘consider the food on offer at the school and atmosphere talked about creating directors of school standards, as of the school canteen’ was introduced, following pressure from well as the national inspectorate. We will ensure that organisations including the Jamie Oliver Foundation. But this early years settings and primary schools are judged August, it I was quietly removed, in a streamlining of inspection against how well they develop children’s knowledge, guidance. Ofsted’s latest consultation on a new inspection framework, skills and qualities through a broad and balanced which closed last Friday, has also omitted to mention school curriculum, alongside tests in English and maths. We food.” have already called for Ofsted to have the power to I know the Minister has a genuine interest in this inspect academy chains and we are committed to subject. Can he shed any light on whether there is to be monitoring its role. That confirms what I said to the a dilution of the inspection of the quality of school hon. Member for Christchurch: we want the same treatment food? for all schools, so that, as well as inspecting local What does the Minister think of the following remark authorities, which may have responsibility for groups of by Sir Michael Wilshaw in the annual report? schools, Ofsted can inspect not just individual schools “The proportion of secondary schools in which leadership and in an academy chain but the operation of the chain management are judged inadequate has…doubled over the past itself. two years.” I hear concerns that schools in some academy chains Again, that should be of direct concern to the Department. have less autonomy and are given directions from head Does the Minister agree with and recognise Sir Michael office about exactly what they have to do. That head Wilshaw’s observation? If so, what is his response and office is sometimes in a remote part of the country, far what does he intend to do about it? 337WH Ofsted10 DECEMBER 2014 Ofsted 338WH

Dr William McCrea (in the Chair): Minister, before I for children, my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and call you, although I am sure there could be a temptation Nantwich (Mr Timpson), will have been particularly to go into the wider education debate, I have to remind involved in the oversight of some of the services in you that the parameters of the debate are the accountability Manchester and elsewhere, but I will write to the hon. of Ofsted and we have to keep to those. Gentleman following the debate to follow up on some of the points he raised. 3.37 pm Before coming back to the points raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch, I will respond The Minister for Schools (Mr David Laws): It is a briefly to my hon. Friend the Member for Wells (Tessa pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Dr McCrea, Munt), who raised concerns about information that her and I will certainly follow your wise advice, in spite of constituent gave Ofsted anonymously to inform the the temptations of the shadow Schools Minister to inspection of a school. I am sure that the chief inspector draw me off into all sorts of other areas. would take the same view as me and her—that information I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for given anonymously should be treated in that way; the Christchurch (Mr Chope) on raising this issue, giving us source of that information should not be revealed to the an opportunity not only to address the issue of his local institution being inspected. I am concerned to hear that school, but to reflect on the accountability of Ofsted there may have been an instance where privacy was not and the appeals processes that our schools inspectorate respected. I will look into that. I will see the chief operates under. He has also, as he said, given us an inspector shortly, and I will raise the issue with him and opportunity to touch on issues arising out of Ofsted’s ask whether he can look into it, if my hon. Friend can annual report published today, within the constraints of give me the details—in confidence, of course—of her the debate. constituent and the circumstances. I think that, by and large, Ofsted does a difficult job I will pick up on a number of the points that the well, and most hon. Members would recognise that. It is shadow Schools Minister raised, but specifically on a job that is necessary. Few of us would want to go back accountability and the situation in Norfolk, I can update to 30 or 40 years ago, when the oversight and accountability him and the House by saying that the fresh independent of the school system was much weaker and, as a review ordered by Sir Michael after questions were consequence, there was a risk that underperforming raised about the earlier inspection is under way. We schools could continue, failing their local communities expect that review to be completed by the end of the and young people for long periods. We certainly do not year. want to go back to that. Ofsted is a good organisation I will touch on the annual report, and then I will and the current chief inspector is one of the best we comment on Ofsted’s inspection and appeals process. I have had. Of course, the Government will reflect carefully will then touch on Ferndown school, which my hon. on the annual report and the comments the chief inspector Friend the Member for Christchurch mentioned. Today’s made today on its launch. annual Ofsted report on schools provides a timely reminder I should also say, as I believe the chief inspector said of the importance of Ofsted’s inspection work. Earlier on the “Today” programme this morning, that Ofsted today, the chief inspector announced that good and carries out some 30,000 inspections every year, not only outstanding schools now account for 81% of all schools of schools but in other settings. The chief inspector will inspected, up from 68% in 2010. We should all acknowledge be the first to acknowledge that when carrying out that that is a significant increase. In spite of some of the inspections in such a number of settings, there are concerns about secondary schools, that is the highest bound to be imperfections in a small minority of cases. proportion of good and outstanding schools at any It is important that we ensure that, where there are time since Ofsted was set up. Primary schools, as the issues, those are taken seriously and dealt with. Of chief inspector mentioned this morning, have done course, we need to make sure that the overall quality of particularly well, with 82% now good or outstanding, the inspection process is as high as it can possibly be. which means that 190,000 more pupils are in good and My hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch and outstanding primary schools than last year. That is others who have participated in this debate have pointed 700,000 more than in 2012, and we should celebrate out that the judgments made by Ofsted are important that. and have big consequences for people’s livelihoods, The report also shows that schools are responding schools’ reputations and the decisions parents take. In positively to inspection. Two thirds of schools that were fairness to parents and schools, it is therefore important previously judged as requiring improvement secured that we get those judgments right. If we err on the side good or outstanding on re-inspection this year. There is of generosity in any judgment, that has serious also positive news on the performance of pupils from consequences. We could end up with schools not doing lower-income backgrounds. The disadvantage gap, well enough and failing their local communities for long particularly in primary schools, is closing rapidly. All periods and, as the hon. Member for Blackley and that means that more than 1 million more pupils are in Broughton (Graham Stringer) mentioned, what is important good or outstanding schools than in 2010. While much in the schools system is even more crucial in safeguarding. of the credit for that must go to hard-working individuals We should be fair to all those involved in that important in schools, we believe that inspection is also contributing work, but we should be rigorous in our inspection to to the improvement in the system. ensure that vulnerable young people are not at risk. The shadow Schools Minister mentioned the less I apologise to the hon. Gentleman, because I did not encouraging recent statistics for secondary schools. know he was going to raise issues on children’s services Significantly more work needs to be done to ensure that and safeguarding. I am not the lead Minister on that improvement is maintained in the future, rather than issue in the Department; the Minister with responsibility schools remaining at existing levels. The percentage of 339WH Ofsted10 DECEMBER 2014 Ofsted 340WH secondary schools graded good or outstanding is up with three inspection service providers: Tribal, Serco from 68% in 2010 to 71%. The number of pupils of and CfBT. Under the planned changes, however, all secondary age being educated in schools in the secondary complaints will be handled directly by Ofsted. sector classed as requiring improvement or inadequate Another important step in trying to improve the dropped from 1,073,000 to 793,000 last year, which is quality of inspections is making more use of serving encouraging. practitioners—something to which Sir Michael Wilshaw The inspection and regulatory functions of Ofsted is committed. The latest figures from Ofsted show that are vested in Her Majesty’s chief inspector, who is 56% of school inspections include at least one serving primarily accountable directly to Parliament. He appears practitioner, which could be a head teacher or a senior before the Education Committee at least twice a year, leader from a high-performing school. That is up from giving evidence on the work of Ofsted and on his just 15% in 2011, so there has been a massive increase in annual report. He is also subject to other parliamentary the involvement of serving practitioners. Many of them scrutiny. As recently as last month he appeared before are also national leaders of education and play a wider the Public Accounts Committee, so there are many part in the overall leadership of the school system. parliamentary opportunities for the work of Ofsted to I will briefly turn to how the Ofsted complaints be examined. The Education Committee can also conduct procedure works. I appreciate that this might seem inquiries specifically into Ofsted and its work. In April unnecessarily detailed, but as it is at the centre of my 2011, the Committee conducted an inquiry into the role hon. Friend’s concerns, it is important for me to set out and performance of Ofsted. The report from that inquiry just what the process looks like and to consider whether concluded: it needs any change. “Ofsted’s independent status is broadly valued by inspectors, Ofsted has a clear, published complaints procedure. by professionals, and by the public, and we strongly support the During an inspection, those with concerns are strongly retention of that status.” encouraged to raise issues with the lead inspector as As the Department for Education is the lead policy and soon as they arise. If a complainant feels unable to raise ministerial Department covering Ofsted’s work, the concerns directly with the lead inspector during the Secretary of State for Education meets the chief inspector inspection, they can contact the Ofsted helpline directly. regularly, as do I, to discuss the work of Ofsted. If concerns have not been resolved, a formal complaint can be raised with Ofsted within 10 working days of the Every year Ofsted conducts approximately 6,500 school incident of concern. If the concern is about an inspection, inspections and 30,000 inspections of all settings. It has the complaint should be made no more than 10 working a massive job of work to do. As part of its procedures, days following the publication of the report. When Ofsted sends out a feedback questionnaire after every Ofsted receives the complaint, it will investigate and inspection. The latest figures for the second quarter of send a written response to answer the agreed main 2014-15 show that 93% of respondents said that they points of concern within 30 working days. It does not were satisfied with the way an inspection was carried normally withhold publication of an inspection report out. That is against an overall response rate of 71%, or withdraw a published inspection report while it which indicates that in the majority of settings, there is investigates complaints unless there are exceptional contentment on the effectiveness and fairness of the circumstances. Ofsted process. As good as those figures are, there is no room for complacency. There is a second, appeal stage to the complaints process. If a complainant remains dissatisfied, they may I assure my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch appeal to the Independent Complaints Adjudication that Sir Michael takes particular interest in the quality Service for Ofsted, which my hon. Friend the Member of inspectors’ work. He recognises—I believe he has for Christchurch mentioned. The Centre for Effective said this publicly—that more needs to be done to ensure Dispute Resolution has been appointed by the Secretary that all inspections are delivered to a consistently high of State to undertake that important role. If complainants standard the first time around. That is why he appointed are not satisfied with the outcome of the adjudication Sir Robin Bosher, one of Ofsted’s directors, to take service review, they can contact the parliamentary direct responsibility for inspection quality and the training ombudsman. That is quite a prolonged process, and I of inspectors. As a result, Ofsted has put in place more appreciate my hon. Friend’s comments about the stringent quality checks and monitoring of inspections ombudsman’s potential role and the time that such and reports. It has also invested more in the training of things can take, but it is relevant that in 2013 only inspectors, in place of having detailed written guidance 12 cases concerning schools were referred to the independent documents. I know that Sir Michael is working hard to complaints adjudication service, which is a small proportion ensure quality and consistency, and I am confident that given that Ofsted inspects approximately 6,500 schools he will tackle any underperformance in the inspection a year. That suggests to me that the number of schools work force. He is prepared to take tough action where that are seriously concerned about the quality of their necessary to remove inspectors, or to require additional inspections is relatively small. training where inspectors fail to meet his high expectations. Looking ahead—my hon. Friend the Member for Mr Chope: Might not another explanation be that Christchurch mentioned this—Sir Michael has announced schools realise that ICASO cannot really do anything? that he will bring the management of inspections, including All that it can do is look at the process rather than the all inspector training, in-house from September 2015. substance. As part of the programme, Ofsted will change how it sources and selects additional inspectors, and how it Mr Laws: It might be that my hon. Friend would seek trains, contracts with and performance-manages them. to put that construction on it, but that is unduly pessimistic, Much of that is currently arranged through contracts not only because the appeals process has previous stages, 341WH Ofsted10 DECEMBER 2014 Ofsted 342WH

[Mr Laws] “addressed the complainant’s concerns in significant detail and in a fair and reasonable manner” but because a body that seeks to escalate a complaint to and went on to say: the independent complaints adjudication service can “I do not find that I can provide any advice or make any seek to raise concerns about the substance—although recommendations to further improve Ofsted’s practices for dealing they may appear to be addressed to the process—if it with complaints in this instance.” feels that aspects of the inspection process have not Picking up on some of the concerns that the school been respected. I will return to that with regard to the raised about being marked down for attendance, I school mentioned by my hon. Friend in a moment. understand that the investigation into the complaint The independent complaints adjudication service also found that inspectors had considered the school’s own reported that it saw an improvement in the quality of attendance data alongside those available nationally. Ofsted’s complaint handling from previous years. All That is correct procedure. Inspectors should use but four of the general recommendations made to Ofsted RAISEonline as a benchmark and should ask questions were accepted fully, with the others being accepted as necessary. The response to the school’s complaint partially. mentioned there being no national comparison data on attendance rates for sixth forms only. I know that my hon. Friend has exchanged correspondence with the chief inspector and Ofsted’s Mr Chope: On that point about no data being available, south-west regional director, Bradley Simmons, about that is not correct. Does my right hon. Friend accept the inspection of Ferndown upper school in January that? 2014. My hon. Friend is concerned that the school was graded inadequate, with serious weaknesses. I note that Mr Laws: The response to the school’s complaint the inspection reported several areas of concern, including mentioned there being no national comparison data on that students were not making enough progress, especially attendance rates for sixth forms only, but attendance in English, that work set was not suitable for the least or data are available and show that, although improving most able students, that progress was too slow for slightly recently, persistent absence has risen for girls students eligible for the pupil premium, for boys and for and for some students with special educational needs. It students with special educational needs or disabilities, has fallen for students eligible for free school meals, but that fixed-term exclusions and persistent absence figures remains seven points above the national average as in were too high and impacting on the progress being 2013. made by those pupils, that sixth-form students were not Attendance is not a separate judgment and does not making enough progress and that leaders, including alone determine the behaviour and safety judgment. A governors, were not tackling weaknesses quickly enough. school cannot be marked down for its attendance statistics As Schools Minister, I cannot comment personally alone, and this particular school was not. Behaviour on all those judgments, as my hon. Friend will understand. and safety were judged not to be inadequate, but to However, I can reflect on the data and what they require improvement. My hon. Friend is concerned that indicate for the school. At the time of the inspection, performance data should be correctly assessed in a local the proportion of students gaining five good GCSE context, but while local comparisons are important, passes, including English and mathematics at grade C Ofsted makes comparisons on attainment and progress or above, had been significantly below the national against national data, taking account of pupils’ prior average for three years. It was 47% against 58% in 2011, attainment. That is clearly set out in the inspection 49% against 59% in 2012 and 50% against 60.6% in handbook, so it should not come as a surprise to any 2013. As I understand it, the school has a lower than school. If one looks at the attainment data, it is clear average number of pupils from disadvantaged backgrounds that the school has some questions to answer about its in receipt of, for example, the pupil premium. GCSE performance against comparable national figures. English language passes at grade A* to C were 69% I understand that Ofsted has undertaken two monitoring against the national average of 82%. Attainment was inspections of the school, in May and September, since significantly below the national average in nine curriculum the original inspection. The first visit found that the areas, and above in just two. Just 59% of students made school was planning appropriate action for improvement, expected progress in English against 69% nationally. I supported by the local authority. The second visit judged will not comment on the precise judgments in the senior leaders to be making reasonable progress towards Ofsted report, but we should reflect on the fact that the removal of serious weaknesses. However, it also data do suggest that the school has performance issues found that school leaders lacked rigour and urgency in and challenges. their approach to improving the school. While recognising On accountability, I know that the school followed improvements, Her Majesty’s inspectorate found that Ofsted’s published complaints procedure. The head teacher “the school lacks a consistently rigorous and relentless focus on complained about the outcome of the inspection. His improving the achievement of those students who could, and should, do better, regardless of their background, ability or complaint was investigated by the inspection service starting point”. provider, Tribal, but was not upheld. He requested that his complaint be elevated, and a further investigation We should all schools to serve the interests of all pupils. was undertaken by Her Majesty’s inspectors to ascertain It is important to remember that, for the vast majority whether the original had been fair and thorough. The of schools, the current inspection system works well. I outcome of the original investigation was validated. would, however, encourage any school that feels that its The head teacher then took his complaint to the inspection has fallen short of normal expectations to Independent Complaints Adjudication Service for Ofsted. raise its concerns with Ofsted at the earliest possible The adjudicator reported that Ofsted had opportunity, as many have done. However, the chief 343WH Ofsted 10 DECEMBER 2014 344WH inspector’s decision must be final if inspection is to Mental Health (Cambridgeshire) remain credible. Without that, every school that disagreed with the judgment would seek to challenge the outcome of its inspection, delaying critical action to start to 4pm bring about improvement for the children at the school Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): It is a pleasure who, after all, will not get a second chance. to serve under your chairmanship, Dr McCrea. I am I hope that I have demonstrated that there are many delighted to have secured this debate on a key issue for stages in the process of scrutinising an Ofsted decision. my constituents: health care and in particular mental In fact, the only way that we could really meet my hon. health. Friend’s requirement for an additional degree of scrutiny Our national health service is something to be proud would be to have another school inspection service. of, the brainchild of a great Liberal, Beveridge, and There is no evidence at present that that would be value brought into being by the pioneering Labour Government for money given the overall level of complaints. We will, after the second world war. It is an amazing institution, however, keep a close eye on the issue and seek to providing care for all of us, free at the point of use. I pay improve the quality of inspections in future. tribute to the excellent and tireless work of NHS staff—and incidentally, I hope the Government will ensure that they are paid appropriately, because independent pay recommendations should be honoured. Our NHS is, however, not perfect and is under strain. During debates when it was established, the predictions were that it would run more cheaply every year as people became increasingly healthy. In fact, the opposite has happened. People live longer because we are learning to treat more and more conditions, but that costs us more and more. Demand grows rapidly, the range of things we can do increases and NHS inflation outstrips standard inflation, leading to huge cost pressures. Much of the solution lies in preventive measures, because it is of course cheaper to keep people healthy than to treat them when they are not, but we never spend enough money on that as it is so often needed for treatment. Some areas are shamefully neglected. Mental health in particular has always been left behind. A lot of that is a product of historical, outdated social attitudes—questions of shame, how people ought to be and what was “normal”. Indeed, many believed that mental health problems were a deficiency of character. That is of course rubbish, and I do not think anyone in the House would share such a view today. Nevertheless, a stigma that simply should not be there is still attached to mental health conditions. People are not prepared to talk about mental health, to admit problems or to seek help. The stigma not only causes anguish for many people and their families, but materialises in discriminatory policies. For example, when the previous Government introduced waiting times in our NHS—arguing, perfectly reasonably, that that would improve provision for cancer patients and mean they were not left waiting for treatment—the Government did not include mental health. It was almost taken for granted that mental health delays were less important than physical health ones. Funding bodies reacted, pulling more money away from mental health in order to hit the new targets in physical health, which was an understandable reaction. I am glad that that policy era is over. We have now legislated for parity of esteem between physical and mental health. Thanks to the excellent work of the Minister of State, Department of Health, my right hon. Friend the Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb), we are introducing the first ever waiting-time standards for mental health next year, described by charities as a watershed moment, although far too late in coming. Other improvements include the recent provision of £150 million to tackle eating disorders, but we have to go much further, because people are suffering and simply cannot wait. 345WH Mental Health (Cambridgeshire)10 DECEMBER 2014 Mental Health (Cambridgeshire) 346WH

[Dr Julian Huppert] the years of underfunding. I accept that NHS England makes decisions on how we get to the fair rate, but I On Saturday, I was at the wonderful Mill Road hope the Minister will agree that the pace of change is winter fair. We had a Lib Dem stall, where we were simply too slow. asking people to come and talk to us about mental health, to get some information and to sign a petition We have other problems. Our population is growing supporting our call for an extra £500 million for mental quickly: Cambridgeshire’s population growth is the fastest health, which I reiterate today. Huge numbers wanted in the country and Peterborough is the fastest growing to sign—many people care about the issue—and we city. That means an even greater strain on funds, because raised lots of money for Centre 33, which helps to the population increase is not properly taken account provide free and confidential counselling and support of. Our funding per head is going up slower than the for young people. national average, in spite of being low to start with. Will the Minister ensure that growth is no longer penalised? We also heard some astonishing tales. Let me paraphrase We also have a legacy of poor decisions, such as the two just one of the stories of one of the people who came massive private finance initiative projects under the by, a woman who had felt suicidal for a year and had no previous Government at Hinchingbrooke and Peterborough fixed address. She went to see a GP, who asked her to hospitals, the biggest and perhaps worst PFI projects in come back regularly to check that she was okay. She the country. They are still sucking money out of the went for a bit, only to stop going, but that triggered no system. When preparing for the debate, I was shocked alarm bells, even though a suicidal patient who was to find that the PFI repayments for Peterborough represent being monitored had stopped showing up. Eventually, a staggering 18% of the hospital’s budget. she went to another GP and was told that she would be referred to a community mental health team, but nothing We have less money than elsewhere, and we have happened. Some time later, a third GP also suggested more of that taken away from us before we even start, referral, but found nothing in her notes to suggest that but we also have other legacy issues. Cambridgeshire is she ever had been referred before. Three months after repeatedly used as a test bed for experimentation, such seeing the first GP, she was finally given an appointment as the £1 billion privatisation of Hinchingbrooke hospital, to see a psychiatrist, but it was in five months’ time. The led by and legislated for by the previous Government. appointment happened and she was put on an 18-month They put the hospital out to tender and had not a single waiting list for therapy. She is still on that list. In the NHS bid among the final five bidders—Addenbrooke’s meantime, she has lost her job and is in an extremely hospital pulled out because the cost was too large—so a difficult situation. No wonder she and many others say list of three private bidders was left to the Government that we need change. to choose from, which is not exactly a great choice to Such a situation is not new. Eight years ago, my have to make. That is why I find it frustrating when the predecessor David Howarth spoke out against £3 million shadow Health Secretary claims to have clean hands of cuts to mental health services in Cambridgeshire that over what happened with Hinchingbrooke. He claimed led to the suicide of Julie Deloughery. There are many that one of the three bidders was an NHS provider, as such stories across the country and across the decades. I he did in the House today, and I have been trying to find heard some more when I worked with service users at out which of the three—Circle, Ramsay or Serco—he Lifeworks, a mental health drop-in centre in Cambridge. considers to be part of the NHS. He said on Twitter The centre was threatened with closure, which I am today that it was the one associated with an NHS delighted has now been stopped. I am proud that I was mental health body, but the day Serco counts as an able to help with that by talking to service users and the NHS bidder is one I hope we will never see. Problems mental health trust, and by raising the issue in Parliament, remain at Hinchingbrooke. but I am far prouder of the work done by service users I am pleased, by the way, about the recent tendering themselves and their friends. In particular, I pay tribute for Cambridgeshire older people services, which I will to Ann Robinson for her efforts. Too often, things are talk about later. However, under the current Government’s done to people with mental health issues, rather than legislation—which, incidentally, I opposed, because doing done with them. things in that way was not right for this Government or The now reversed decision on Lifeworks was partly the previous one—the bid went to the NHS, with the the result of funding problems, so let me focus on the mental health trust and Addenbrooke’s hospital providing funding situation in Cambridgeshire, which has one the better services. of the most troubled health economies in the country. We are very underfunded. In 2013-14, our clinical Cambridgeshire starts off with a particular historical commissioning group received the second lowest funding situation and no money, so it is no wonder that we per head in the entire country. It has improved slightly struggle to fund mental health properly. Things get since, but we are still far below where we should be. worse. The CCG ran a small deficit last year, which is Somewhere has to be second lowest, but that is not a hardly surprising, but that makes it ineligible for quality fair share. The Government have a fair share formula, premium payments, which could have brought in another but since it has been revised, rightly, to take account of £1 million. How can it make sense to starve CCGs of deprivation, we have been left £35 million below the fair funding as a punishment for not having enough money funding calculation. We get £961 per head in the to do the job properly? No one will be surprised to find Cambridgeshire and Peterborough CCG, whereas the that there is a correlation between budget outcomes and figure for next-door West Norfolk is £1,255 per head. how well funded CCGs are: areas with funding above We are getting a slightly larger increase than others, at their fair-share calculations run surpluses, while those 2.9% rather than 2.14%, but at that rate it will take funded below their fair share run deficits and get punished about a decade to catch up, with no compensation for for it. The deficit of £4.9 million from last year has to be 347WH Mental Health (Cambridgeshire)10 DECEMBER 2014 Mental Health (Cambridgeshire) 348WH repaid this year, putting even greater strain on the CCG, and well-being as the core. Mind recently called for given an underfunding level of almost 10 times that local authorities to prepare public mental health strategies. figure. Cambridgeshire county council’s health committee, chaired In fairness to the CCG, it provides proportionately by the excellent Councillor Killian Bourke, has already about the same allocation to mental health as everywhere commissioned such a strategy and plans to spend £120,000 else. We start off with far too little, however, so mental on it. It will attempt not only to promote mental health health gets far too little—one of the worst levels of in the very widest sense but to target groups that are funding in the whole country. That is in spite of long-term particularly susceptible to experiencing problems, investing underinvestment and the huge pressures of growing in effective, evidence-based interventions. demand—a 12% increase in the number of people with We also need to focus on recovery, on which the serious and enduring mental illness, but no extra money mental health trust’s recovery college is leading the way. to cope with it. Given that the previous Government Recovery is an approach to mental health that recognises introduced a payment by results tariff system for physical that full recovery is not always possible—some conditions health, but left mental health using the block grant are lifelong—and seeks to enable patients to recover system, extra demand—extra work—does not lead to their lives from their conditions so they can live more extra funding. Yet again, changes were made to help fulfilled lives. That is in contrast to the attachment physical health care rather than mental health care. As model, in which people are stuck as service users for we rightly reduce stigma and tackle the huge unmet ever. However, a recovery-led approach has to be properly need for mental health support, more and more people resourced and must not simply be used as an excuse to will realise they need help and will seek it, but will close down services; otherwise, discharged patients will discover that it is not there for them. just be shut out of services and will return to being We have seen other problems. There was a suggestion bounced around the system, looking for crisis care. from NHS England that there should be differential We need good crisis care as well, so that people can deflators—larger savings on mental health treatments receive help. I again pay tribute to my right hon. Friend than on physical health treatments. I know that infuriated the Member for North Norfolk for his work on the my right hon. Friend the Member for North Norfolk, crisis care concordat, bringing organisations together to and I understand that the situation will not be repeated, deal with such crises. Currently, a huge load is placed on which is welcome. I was disappointed to see that my the police and acute hospitals—they end up dealing own CCG complied with the suggestion, although in with people who should not be there but have nowhere fairness it gave an extra £1.5 million for mental health else to go. services and as of next April will give a further £2.2 million We must also make sure that there is a wider to help meet targets for improving access to the understanding of mental health throughout the health psychological therapies programme. system. Primary care is key. I am astonished that GPs do not have compulsory training in mental health care. The Nobel laureate Ernest Rutherford said, “We They will surely deal with mental health issues regularly, haven’t got any money, so we’ll have to think”, and given that one in four of us will have a serious mental providers in Cambridgeshire and Peterborough have health condition at some point. Why are GPs not expert had to be creative to cope with the awful funding in mental health care? They could do far more to help position. We have seen many innovations. The mental people recover, remain independent and live better lives. health trust has set up a single point of access known as The voluntary sector is also key. I pay particular ARC—the advice and referral centre—reduced out-of-area tribute to organisations such as Mind in Cambridgeshire, placements and focused more on community teams. Its led by its very able chief executive Sarah Hughes; she recovery college is doing good work in advancing the has driven forward the crisis care concordat which was recovery model of mental health care. signed for Cambridgeshire and Peterborough just a We are doing some amazing things to use resources couple of weeks ago. I also pay tribute to organisations more efficiently in joint working. The £800 million such as Rethink Mental Illness, the Richmond Fellowship, contract for Cambridgeshire older people’s services—as Lifecraft, Centre 33, pinpoint, the SUN network, Arts I said, that stayed in the NHS—will combine acute and Minds and many more, whose work is hugely trusts, mental health and community care, to help people valued. seamlessly so they are not passed between one organisation Finally, I will focus on an issue particularly close to and another. In particular, it should mean a sharp my heart: child and adolescent mental health. It is a decline in the number of delayed transfers of care, very important issue, because those who experience where an older person is stuck in an acute hospital their first mental health problems at that stage can often bed—at great expense and not to their benefit—because be helped to recover completely. Often, the problems there is no alternative available in the system. No longer are a product of their environment, so early intervention will Addenbrooke’s hospital have to negotiate desperately can be radically preventive; however, waiting lists are for community care beds; there will be one system. The far too long. In Cambridgeshire the health committee is contract design, with outcomes-based contracting, means trying to work with Centre 33 to provide more counselling that, rather than rewarding activity, there is an incentive support for young people. We have to go further on that to reduce the need for treatment. Keeping someone and sort this issue out. Pinpoint and Healthwatch have healthy longer is better for them and cheaper for us than recently contacted me about the urgent need to do more treating them when they are ill. for child and adolescent mental health services. Many We have to do much more on prevention, an issue I of my constituents have been in touch on that matter, as know the Minister cares greatly about. In his Five Year well. Forward View, Simon Stevens called for a radical emphasis There is far more that I could talk about. For example, on public health and prevention; promoting public mental I could discuss the troubled implementation of the Epic health must surely be a key part of that, with resilience e-hospital system at Addenbrooke’s and the lessons we 349WH Mental Health (Cambridgeshire)10 DECEMBER 2014 Mental Health (Cambridgeshire) 350WH

[Dr Julian Huppert] local health matters. I know from meeting the chair of his CCG only yesterday that my hon. Friend is a consistent have to learn from that, the ongoing problems in the champion of local services. East of England ambulance service, or the desperate I am sorry that the Minister of State, Department of need to reopen community care beds in Brookfields Health, my right hon. Friend the Member for North hospital so that people can be moved from Addenbrooke’s Norfolk (Norman Lamb), cannot be here to respond to into appropriate care. I could also talk about many the debate, but he has already shown a keen interest in positive things, such as the move of Papworth hospital its subject, and I know that he will take action forward. to the Cambridge biomedical campus, which is proceeding I also echo the tributes that my hon. Friend the Member apace, planning permission having recently been granted for Cambridge quite rightly made to NHS staff at the after my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary to the beginning of his remarks. Treasury approved the funding. We all agree that good-quality patient care has to be I will conclude instead with a plea. Mental health expected regardless of where in the country we live. As services in Cambridgeshire, and indeed across the country, my hon. Friend quite rightly said, for too long, mental are simply not good enough. I welcome the Government’s health services were the forgotten area of the health commitment to change that, and the idea of parity of service. That is changing under this Government, and I esteem in particular, but it is not enough. We also need will touch on that later. There is still, however, much to more money in mental health care across the board—hence do; I am sure that we would all acknowledge that. my plea to the Minister for an extra £500 million targeted on mental health care. Although I will not dwell on the subject too much in this debate, my hon. Friend was right to comment on In Cambridgeshire, we face a financial crisis across prevention and on building resilience. As the public all forms of health care. Our low funding levels, historical health Minister, those issues are close to my heart. He commitments and growing population create a triple was also right to talk in broader terms about building whammy. However, there is a way forward. Just yesterday, resilience in individuals. I know considerable thought is I took the chief executive of the mental health trust and being given to making it possible for people—young the chair of the clinical commissioning group to see my people, in particular—to withstand more of what life right hon. Friend the Member for North Norfolk to throws at them. make the case, and I think he was sympathetic to our position. I move on to questions of national funding. For 2014-15, NHS England allocated £64 billion to CCGs I will say here, to this Minister, what I said then to for hospital, community and mental health services—an that one. There is an opportunity now, given the extra increase on the previous year of 2.54%, or £1.59 billion. money that I and others campaigned for in the autumn In making allocations, NHS England relies on advice statement. That extra £2 billion will have to be allocated from one of our many health acronyms, ACRA—the somehow, so what formula should be used? I urge her in Advisory Committee on Resource Allocation. ACRA the strongest terms not to use the current ratios. That gives advice on the share of available resources provided would mean giving extra money to areas already getting to each clinical commissioning group to support equal more than their calculated fair share, and less to those access for equal need. Much of our debate will revolve of us who are behind that fair share. Instead—I hope around those funding formulas and how they are evolving. she will press NHS England on this—the money should The calculation is based on the age of populations, their be used to jump-start the shift to the new fair formula. relative morbidity and unavoidable variations in cost. I understand why the transition is being made slowly— The objective is to ensure a consistent supply of health those areas with more funding than the fair share services across the country. The greater the health need, probably do not feel overfunded, even though they are the more money is received, because more health services able to run a surplus. But the new money allows us to are needed. The CCG model covers only non-specialised correct the deficiencies for low-funded areas without hospitals and community care, plus primary care creating losers. I am aware that £200 million has been prescribing. earmarked for challenged health economies, and we are I understand that the baseline varies systematically one of the 11 that have been so labelled. Although I between locations. To some extent, that reflects different welcome that, the Government should allocate all the historical commissioning priorities in the predecessor money to move people up to the fair share if they are organisations—the primary care trusts—or different below it. I know that if our clinical commissioning mixes between the local and area commissioning group got the missing money—the £35 million that the responsibilities. fair shares formula says we should have, plus our share of the extra £2 billion—a high proportion of it could NHS England reviewed the funding formula for 2014-15 and would go on mental health care, transforming, and the following years, and it now uses the person-based helping and saving many lives. I hope the Minister will resource allocation approach, which was developed by do what she can to make sure that that happens. the Nuffield Trust. Unlike the previous target models, it allows information about individuals—including their age, gender and recent hospital diagnostic history—to 4.17 pm be combined with information about the area in which they live; that information, as my hon. Friend knows, is The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health frequently linked to deprivation. The PBRA formula (Jane Ellison): It is a pleasure to serve under your estimates the relative need of each individual. At a chairmanship, Dr McCrea. I congratulate my hon. Friend CCG level, the estimates are the most accurate ever the Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) on securing used for allocations, so there has obviously been a this debate and commend him on his ongoing interest in change in how resources are allocated. 351WH Mental Health (Cambridgeshire)10 DECEMBER 2014 Mental Health (Cambridgeshire) 352WH

In debates such as this we often discuss the pace of that local branches of Mind and other groups do terrific the change from the actual allocation towards the target work. My hon. Friend clearly has a good relationship allocation. The option that NHS England agreed for with his local branch, and I thank him for placing his CCGs reflected the challenge of directing additional regard for it on the record. funding to the CCGs that are the most under target, The Government have increased funding for mental while not destabilising areas whose allocations were health by £120 million in 2014-15. Total mental health above target—I have seen that happen in London. If spending in England will rise from £8.5 billion in 2013-14 people have had an allocation for a long time, we must to £8.62 billion in 2014-15. The Department of Health ensure that they plan for the change; such things must and NHS England continue to work together on that be done sensibly. That is a continuation of the policy of important issue. I recognise the challenge faced by the maximising growth for those furthest below target. We Cambridgeshire and Peterborough health economy. I appreciate that CCGs in the east of England are further agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge below their target allocations than those in many other about the private finance initiative decisions that the parts of the country—my hon. Friend is right to draw previous Government made about Peterborough, and attention to that—and that Cambridgeshire is one of about the legacy of problems that they left. the furthest behind target by some £45 million or 4.85%. As my hon. Friend knows, action is being NHS England is already spending £500 million in taken. NHS England, the NHS Trust Development 2014-15 and 2015-16 to bring under-target CCGs, such Authority and Monitor are working on a programme to as Cambridgeshire, towards their target allocations. That support 11 of the most challenged health economies, of approach was discussed and decided at a public board which my hon. Friend’s is one, and to address those meeting in December 2013—nearly a year ago. My hon. with long-term integrated plans. In Cambridgeshire, a Friend is pushing us to speak about what will happen in programme jointly funded by all local NHS partners the future. Following my right hon. Friend the Chancellor and underpinned by a concordat on joint working has of the Exchequer’s announcement in the autumn statement been put in place. Its purpose is to find a collectively of a further £2 billion for front-line services, NHS agreed solution to closing the financial gap facing the England is reviewing the 2015-16 allocations. I hope economy as a whole, while improving quality of care for that NHS England shares the hopes of my hon. Friend my hon. Friend’s constituents and everybody else who the Member for Cambridge, and that it will consider is served by the local health economy. That work is due how some of that extra £2 billion can be used to help to identify proposals by the end of June 2015. the CCGs that are furthest behind—including Cambridgeshire—to get closer to their fair share. My Mental health is an important part of that work, and hon. Friend has already discussed that issue with my emerging ideas focus around closer integration of physical ministerial colleague, my right hon. Friend the Member and mental health, and an expanded role for mental for North Norfolk, who takes it extremely seriously and health input in a range of hospital settings and community is committed to raising the matter with NHS England pathways, such as those for long-term conditions. As before it makes a decision at its board meeting on the Minister with responsibility for public health, I 17 December. know only too well that people often have extreme co-morbidities, so we must look at them in the round Like my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge, I and at all the things that interact with and affect their recognise the commitment and dedication of the staff personal health care. who provide mental health service, including those who work in specialist trusts and settings, and those who I know that there are concerns that mental health work in primary care and provide services daily. I was services could be disproportionately affected, which pleased that my hon. Friend spoke about the large army would not be acceptable. Although payment for mental of people who are absolutely critical in mental health. health services is agreed locally, we expect local They are often not formally part of the NHS composition commissioners and providers to have regard for the of services, but their support is invaluable to it. They national tariff arrangements. However, they can be are the carers and volunteers, who sometimes work in flexible when there is good reason to be so. charities or voluntary organisations—my hon. Friend The tariff arrangements for 2015-16 give a clear referred to Centre 33 and a number of other organisations signal to the mental health sector to move away from in Cambridgeshire. Sometimes they are simply individuals simple block contracts, which currently apply in who help or care for a parent, a friend or a neighbour Cambridgeshire and are not transparent, to local payment because they think it is the right thing to do. Without models that support recovery and outcomes, as my hon. those people, the job of the health services would be Friend highlighted, and that reflect the needs of local immeasurably more difficult. Like my hon. Friend, I communities. pay tribute to them. My hon. Friend is right that Cambridgeshire and Peterborough CCG invested an additional £1.5 million Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): On that point, will to address capacity pressures. His CCG is clearly committed my hon. Friend the Minister praise West Essex Mind, to that, and he will continue to champion it. It has also whose annual general meeting is this Friday? It does so committed to investing a further £2.2 million from next much to help mental health services in Harlow and April to deliver the Improving Access to Psychological across Essex, and it is an example of a charity that is Therapies programme. deeply rooted in our community. My hon. Friend is right to pay tribute to my ministerial colleague, my right hon. Friend the Member for North Jane Ellison: Of course I join my hon. Friend in Norfolk, who has championed mental health policy in paying tribute to that organisation. It is obvious from this Parliament very effectively. My hon. Friend the the comments of many hon. Members in this House Member for Cambridge drew attention to the Government’s 353WH Mental Health (Cambridgeshire) 10 DECEMBER 2014 354WH

[Jane Ellison] Energy Policy and Living Standards commitment to parity of esteem, which has been made 4.30 pm explicit in legislation. Some 2.4 million people have entered treatment under the IAPT programme, and Douglas Carswell (Clacton) (UKIP): Government energy more than 1.4 million have completed that treatment. policy, put in place by Ministers of all three established We invested £54 million in the period from 2011 to parties, is pricing people out of being able to heat their 2015-16 in the children and young people’s IAPT own homes. The cosy consensus over energy policy here programme. My hon. Friend is right that child and in Westminster is squeezing living standards across the adolescent mental health services are a critical part of country. According to the index of domestic fuel and our local care pathways. light prices, helpfully reproduced by the House of Commons For the first time ever, we have a mental health crisis Library, prices have changed fairly dramatically over care concordat to improve the system, signed by more the past 40 years. From the early 1980s through to the than 20 national organisations. As my hon. Friend said, early noughties, there was a slow, gradual fall in prices; Cambridgeshire has already put it in place. We invested it was a 20-year period of customers getting what they £25 million to ensure that vulnerable offenders are tend to get in a free market, capitalist economy—more identified when they first enter the criminal justice for less. system. The aim is to achieve 100% coverage by 2017. Suddenly and dramatically, that picture changed in There is a lot going on. We all acknowledge that there the early noughties. Since then we have seen a rapid rise is a long way to go on mental health, but we have passed in prices—sharper, indeed, than that experienced during several important milestones on the journey. The NHS— either of the two oil shocks of the 1970s. Dual-fuel both nationally and in Cambridgeshire—is working household energy bills in 2014 for the average home are hard on the wider funding issues, and I hope I have forecast to be almost £1,400. That represents a real-terms assured my hon. Friend that progress is being made. He price increase of over 50% in a decade—a decade during has already had a commitment from my right hon. which average household incomes stagnated and during Friend the Member for North Norfolk, but when I which, by some measures, the UK’s per capita income return to the Department I will reiterate that we want to has fallen. Fuel bills have gone up sharply, but income make representations about the points he made to NHS has hardly changed. Living standards have been squeezed England ahead of the critical funding meeting. I encourage as a consequence. Pensioners and those on low incomes my hon. Friend to keep closely in touch with his local tend to pay a disproportionately high proportion of NHS, although I can see that he does that. I thank him their incomes on energy. The definition of fuel poverty for securing this debate. I hope I have given him a may have changed, but one stark fact cannot be overlooked: measure of comfort and reassured him that considerable a large number of households—4.82 million households— progress is under way on this important agenda. now spend over 10% of their income trying to keep warm. Why have energy prices gone up so rapidly? Why did the historic decline in energy prices suddenly turn around in the early noughties, and why have costs gone up in this way? Is it because there is not enough of the stuff? Are we perhaps running out of gas? Not at all: wholesale energy costs have actually been falling as a proportion of the total. According to Ofgem, for every £1 we pay on domestic fuel bills, only about 44p goes to meet the wholesale price. People might think, “Is this all the fault of those beastly energy companies? Are they the ones to blame?” About a fifth to a quarter of the bills that we pay covers the cost of the energy companies distributing and supplying what they sell us. People might think, “If only energy companies were forced to lower their prices, perhaps we could have cheaper energy for everyone.”

Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Douglas Carswell: With a due sense of reluctance, yes.

Albert Owen: I am very grateful. I welcome the fact that the hon. Gentleman has secured this debate. I guess that his party is now an established party—now that they are here, they are part of the establishment. The serious point is that distribution prices vary considerably across the 14 regions and contribute to between 19% and 25% of the bill. Does he agree that it is possible to have a leveller so that across the United Kingdom—or certainly in Great Britain—those prices could be the same? Does he also agree that it should be possible for 355WH Energy Policy and Living Standards10 DECEMBER 2014 Energy Policy and Living Standards 356WH people off-grid to get a better bargain? He mentioned cost of living and on energy costs, particularly for dual fuel, and many people in deprived and rural areas poorer families in this country. How does he think we are not on the grid, so they do not get the benefit of could get the oil producers to pass on that decrease to dual fuel discount. the consumer?

Douglas Carswell: The hon. Gentleman argues in Douglas Carswell: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely favour, I think, of Government price-fixing and making right and makes a very valid point. For a number of it illegal for suppliers to charge different prices in different reasons—not least because of technology and innovation parts of the country. I think there are a number of flaws in the United States and the shale gas revolution—the in that approach. For a start, it could quite possibly cost of fossil fuel is being driven down. Unfortunately, mean that some areas would have to go without supply we have a Government whose officials banked on the at all. Generally speaking, if we try to fix prices, we cost of fossil fuels being relatively high, so we are now interfere with the allocation of resources and we have to locked into a position where people will have to pay be prepared for black-outs. That is not something that I higher costs for years, despite the potential for a great would want, but he is absolutely right to say that a fifth reduction. It is extraordinary that a Government who to a quarter of the bills that we pay cover the cost of the once pretended to believe in the free market are presiding companies distributing and supplying energy. The hon. over that. It is quite remarkable. We should be benefiting Gentleman then makes the leap that many have made, from the lower oil costs, but we are unable to because which is that if only we could force energy companies to we have a Department that is committed to price-fixing. lower their prices, we could have cheaper energy for all. That, at least, seems to be the level of logic from the Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): Does the hon. right hon. Member for Doncaster North (Edward Gentleman accept that not only have the Government Miliband). However, a prices and incomes policy for pushed up the price of electricity because of this infatuation energy in 2015 will no more work than a prices and with wind turbines, but that that in itself has led to incomes policy has worked for anything in the past. distribution costs going up because the grid has to be Prices and incomes policies do not work. reinforced, and that the carbon tax that is now imposed Energy prices are not going up because of a shortage on the fuel used by the cheapest types of power stations of energy or because of beastly energy companies; is adding to people’s bills as well? The whole policy is public policy is driving up the cost of household energy directed towards high energy prices, which have reduced bills. The renewable obligation requires energy companies people’s standard of living and have furthermore chased to increase the proportion of energy they generate from industry out of the United Kingdom. supposedly renewable sources. That basically means that we have to pay more in order to subsidise the Douglas Carswell: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely construction of wind turbines. The Government’s own spot on. It is irrational and uneconomic on so many estimate suggests that fuel bills have gone up by 7% to levels. The irony is that the Government talk about refund those renewable obligations. However, the Renewable windmills and wind turbines, using the language of Energy Foundation, for example, has pointed out that sustainability, but the truth is that without the subsidy, the methodology of the Department means that the it simply would not be sustainable. Unlike solar, it figure of 7% is, by many ways of analysing it, an simply will not make economic sense to generate electricity extraordinary understatement. If we measure the increase through 13th and 14th-century windmill technology. in terms of price per kilowatt-hour, the increase in prices is likely to be far greater. Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): I According to data that the Department recently put congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. out following a freedom of information request, in the Does he accept that the Government’s policy is very central fossil fuel price scenario for 2020, low-carbon illogical in this area? For example, we are spending policies will result in a 50% increase in energy costs for taxpayers’ money in order to enhance the setting of a small business. In the low fossil fuel price scenario world heritage site at Stonehenge, while at the same for 2020, low-carbon policies will cause a 77% increase time using taxpayers’ money for subsidies for offshore for medium-sized companies, which would rise to 114% wind turbines that are going to wreck the world heritage by 2030. Whitehall officials have gambled on the price site on the Jurassic coast? and cost of fossil fuel and they have got it spectacularly wrong. I wonder whether the Minister, with an ambitious eye on the world beyond May next year, is willing to Douglas Carswell: The hon. Gentleman makes a brilliant defend those policies. point. He is extremely sound on this issue, as on so many other things. There are things on which it is good The Minister’s colleague, the Secretary of State for to spend public money, and securing the future of Energy and Climate Change, has pledged to treble the something like Stonehenge is wonderful, but one of the amount of electricity derived from renewables. Will the downsides of subsidising windmills is that they damage Minister defend that, too? Energy prices are increasing the countryside. It is not good conservation practice to because we are switching off perfectly good gas and industrialise the countryside with these subsidised wind coal power stations while pouring billions of pounds turbines. It is not good for the environment or our into windmills. It does not make sense. heritage sites. It is not good, either, for people in Jaywick and west Clacton in my constituency, who are deliberately Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): I am being priced out of being able to heat their home. Why? intrigued by what the hon. Gentleman has had to say, Because an out-of-touch elite in Westminster and Whitehall but his analysis has missed out the fact that the price of believes that that will somehow save the planet from oil has been dropping. That can have an impact on the excess carbon dioxide emissions. It is the Alice in 357WH Energy Policy and Living Standards10 DECEMBER 2014 Energy Policy and Living Standards 358WH

[Douglas Carswell] Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con) rose—

Wonderland world of SW1 that has come to believe Dr William McCrea (in the Chair): We will now hear that. Ministers are competing to be the mad hatter, but a short intervention by Robert Halfon. it is a ridiculous state of affairs. The Climate Change Act 2008 was a mistake. I should Robert Halfon: On a point of order, Dr McCrea. I have listened far more carefully to the late, great Eric have permission from the hon. Member for Clacton Forth MP and voted against it. My failure to do so is (Douglas Carswell) to make a short speech in this my biggest regret as a Member of Parliament. My new debate. Can I just confirm that that is the case? party looks to help me to right that wrong, or rather I look to help it to right that wrong. Dr William McCrea (in the Chair): Yes, you have Government schemes promising to insulate homes permission to make a speech, but it needs to be short, have been a flop. In Jaywick and west Clacton, in my because we have to give the Minister time to respond. corner of Essex, thousands of householders were led to believe that they could get free home insulation. For all 4.43 pm that, it has happened only for a handful. The green deal has failed, and alongside it the Minister who presided Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Thank you, Dr McCrea; over the scheme. Should we now follow the right hon. I will speak for three minutes or so. I am very grateful to Member for Doncaster North, who has declared that he the hon. Member for Clacton (Douglas Carswell) for wants energy prices to be fixed and a prices policy for giving me permission to make a speech, and I congratulate energy? He may have committed his party to a price him on securing this important debate. I will focus on freeze, but that will not mean lower energy prices for different areas, but I do think that the Government have everyone. If we hold down the price of something by done good things—in particular, providing a rebate to Government fiat, we end up constraining the supply of every domestic electricity customer and reducing bills it. That policy will lead directly to black-outs. by £130 for 2 million of the poorest households through The real reason for higher energy prices is the public the warm home discount. And of course the hon. policies that were put in place by the right hon. Member Gentleman will know about the huge fuel duty freeze for Doncaster North when he was the Energy Secretary, that the Government have pledged to maintain across and which all three parties now support. All three the Parliament, so that the price of fuel is 20p lower in parties have had a say on energy policy and all three tax terms. parties have got us to this sorry state of affairs. We need As I said, I will concentrate on a number of areas. a return to the idea of an honest energy market. The The first is the difference in the cost of energy depending Minister might pay lip service to the idea of a free on which payment method a customer uses. I have market, but where it counts—when it comes to what he worked with the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert actually does in office—he is cheerfully defending a Owen) on this issue. Earlier this year, I conducted a system of energy production that is anything but free, cross-party campaign, with the support of more than so let me remind him of what an honest market in 100 MPs, against the practice by energy companies of energy production might look like. charging customers extortionate amounts for not paying If we had an honest energy market in this country, by direct debit. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister suppliers would compete to supply householders with ordered an investigation into that, but all that Ofgem energy at a price that they were willing to pay. There has said to me is that although there were some anomalies, would be no requirements on them to produce a particular such as the £390 extra that Spark Energy customers mix or quota of energy. Innovation and competition were paying, those cases were exceptional. However, would mean giving customers more for less. Capital and Department of Energy and Climate Change figures technology would come together to satisfy customers. show that the average person who does not pay by Instead, we have a system in which lobbyists and quotas direct debit pays £114 more each year. That is just not meet in Government Departments in pursuit of renewable good enough. targets. It is a corporatist racket, not an energy policy One elderly lady in my constituency of Harlow, who that is remotely competitive or free. Coal, gas, fracking, always paid on time via the post office, received a letter nuclear—who knows what mix we might get if we had saying that she would have to start paying an extra £63 a innovation, capital and a free, honest market in energy? year if she did not start paying by direct debit. That is If the Minister finds it hard to imagine what a free unacceptable. Charges such as that are excessive and market in energy might look like, may I suggest that he harm the most vulnerable in our society, particularly look across the Atlantic? Gas prices for domestic consumers the 2 million people who do not have proper banking have fallen by 26% in five years in the United States. As facilities, which makes payment by direct debit almost our prices have risen, over there they have fallen. It is impossible. I hope that my right hon. Friend the Minister not that the laws of physics are any different on that will clarify what the Government are trying to do on side of the Atlantic. The laws of physics are the same. It that. is public policy on this side of the Atlantic that is so Secondly, there is a problem, which has been raised, fundamentally flawed and needs to change. regarding prepayment meters. The cost of using those is Voters who struggle to pay their heating bills this year often significantly higher than of using any other method. should rightly blame those on all three parties’ Front Traditionally, that was justifiable: companies had to pay Benches, who put this dreadful scheme in place. We people to go and empty the meters of coins. But there need to make a change. We need to scrap the subsidies. are now prepayment cards. Those who use prepayment We need to love the new technology, but subsidies must meters are charged extra even though they are the least be abolished. able to afford it. That needs to be looked at urgently. 359WH Energy Policy and Living Standards10 DECEMBER 2014 Energy Policy and Living Standards 360WH

Thirdly, there are other ways in which energy bills are Minister would also recognise, that as soon as a capacity increased, often through no fault of the consumer. The market is announced, people will not build capacity example has been mentioned of the 4 million households until they start qualifying for the subsidy. That subsidy who are off the gas grid and will never be able to get the now seems to be available to almost everyone, rather best deals as they cannot get a dual-fuel discount. It than just those who have capacity that can be switched would be helpful if standard criteria could be introduced on reliably and immediately. That is going to be yet across suppliers to allow families with children clearer another imposition that drives up costs for our consumers. guidance as to whether they will qualify for the warm Perhaps the most significant cost is what is happening home discount. to coal. The European Union is shutting down coal Finally, I believe that the only way in which the plants, including Kingsnorth in my constituency.Demolition situation can be improved is not by imposing an energy of Kingsnorth has just commenced under the large price freeze, which will only hike prices up in the long combustion plant directive, and various pieces of successor term, but by scrapping the existing regulator and creating legislation are even worse. The Government did not an energy version of Which?, a consumer regulator that apply for a derogation that could have got us through a stands up for the customers, not the energy companies, period in which there was a particular crunch in our and that has real teeth. As pointed out in The Sun energy demand. Why did not the Government at least newspaper today and as mentioned by the hon. Gentleman, try to obtain such a derogation? The Government, not The Sun is running a campaign for fuel companies to the EU, are banning the construction of new coal-fired cut their prices following a significant fall in the international plant. E.ON, which owns Kingsnorth, would have liked price of oil. I have previously handed a petition to the to build a new supercritical plant, which would have Office of Fair Trading with FairFuelUK calling for an provided much more efficient energy production, but inquiry into the rocket and feather effect, but there has the Government have banned it because of the emissions never been a full inquiry. performance standard, I believe. Such projects are going In conclusion, stopping the premium on non-payment ahead in Germany and other countries, but we are by direct debit, action on additional and hidden costs unilaterally driving up costs for our consumers, reducing and turning Ofgem into a genuine consumer body would the competitiveness of our industry and holding our make a huge difference to residents of Harlow, and to country back. energy bills and the cost of living for millions of people across the country. 4.50 pm Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (UKIP) rose— The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Matthew Hancock): I congratulate the Dr William McCrea (in the Chair): One hon. Gentleman hon. Member for Clacton (Douglas Carswell) on securing is standing, but convention demands that a Member the debate and on choosing energy as the subject for his has the permission not only of the Member who has first Westminster Hall debate in his new iteration in this secured the debate, which is Mr Carswell, but of the Parliament. My central response to his argument is that Minister, and he needs time to respond, so is the Minister it is important to look at the facts and have a rational willing to give a couple of minutes to the hon. Gentleman? debate about the matter. Central to his big-picture hypothesis was the argument that energy costs have been rising since the early 2000s, before which they had The Minister of State, Department of Energy and gradually declined. He went on to say that wholesale Climate Change (Matthew Hancock): Of course. costs were falling as a proportion of the total cost. However, the wholesale price has risen sharply during 4.48 pm that period, and the wholesale price—the amount that is beyond the control of any Government—is a central Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (UKIP): Thank driver of energy costs. Without acknowledging that you, Dr McCrea; I am grateful to the Minister. I core fact, it is difficult to have a rational debate on the congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Clacton subject, which I think we would all value. (Douglas Carswell) on securing this debate on energy policy and living standards. This is a key issue for our Mark Reckless: The Minister says that the price is party, and I think that this is the first debate that we beyond the control of any Government, but Saudi have secured in the Commons. Arabia has had quite a big impact on price by not Energy costs are being driven up through a levy increasing its oil production, and the US has done control framework that shows the cost rising from likewise by allowing and facilitating exploration for £2.3 billion in 2012 to £9.8 billion in 2020. Much of that shale gas and oil, which we have held back so badly in money is going on offshore wind. Rather than trying to this country. develop leading, cutting-edge technologies, or some of the areas that have been improving in cost-efficiency Matthew Hancock: Nobody has direct control over such as solar, we are seeing the roll-out of absolutely wholesale costs, although I entirely take the point that masses—almost half the world’s production—of offshore Government policy that has an impact on the supply of energy, which costs about three times the market energy energy, particularly hydrocarbon energy, can have an price. That is an absolutely extraordinary imposition on impact on price. I share the hon. Gentleman’s enthusiasm our constituents. for shale, and the Government’s proposals will ensure At the same time, we are bringing in a capacity that exploration for shale gas can happen as long as it is market that even Mr Huhne, who was the Energy done carefully and within a regulatory framework that Secretary, did not want to see. At least he was an ensures that it is safe. I hope that he, his colleague the economist and realised, as I would have thought the hon. Member for Clacton and all colleagues in his new 361WH Energy Policy and Living Standards10 DECEMBER 2014 Energy Policy and Living Standards 362WH

[Matthew Hancock] it had a relatively closed market. We are working hard to get shale gas extraction going in the UK, where I party will support the local extraction of shale gas; his think that it has huge potential. The Infrastructure Bill, view is not shared by members of his party across the which is currently before the House, proposes changes country. I welcome the support of the new establishment to make it easier to get shale gas out of the ground in a party for shale gas. carefully regulated and safe way. I welcome the hon. It is absolutely essential to ensure that we have security Gentleman’s support for that. of supply at the lowest possible cost, while living within The capacity mechanism and the changes to make our international climate obligations. Perhaps there is a our energy system more driven by competition are point of difference, because the risk of climate change designed to ensure that we get that security of supply as is real and must be taken seriously, but the question is well as the cheapest possible cost. That is best done how we deliver on that in the lowest-cost way. On that, I through a market mechanism, but the market must have think that the hon. Member for Clacton and I share a strong framework around it, because we must ensure some analysis. For instance, ensuring that taxes remain continuity of supply in order to keep the lights on. as low as possible is an important element of the Government’s programme. Even with the incredible Robert Halfon: Will the Minister make a brief comment deficit that we inherited, we have managed to keep about the continued problem of the big energy companies petrol and diesel prices 20p lower than they would have charging a premium to vulnerable people who do not otherwise have been. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the pay by direct debit? Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) for the work he has done on that, which is widely recognised. As oil Matthew Hancock: That is something that I am actively prices fall, I support him in the call for those reductions looking into, and I look forward to working with my to be passed on to the motorist at the pump now, not hon. Friend to take it forward. later. The work that he has done, including on the front page of today’s Sun, is an important contribution to Albert Owen: One area in the energy market where this debate. there is no competition at all is distribution. The regions have monopolies, and the differential between them is Mr Jim Cunningham: How will the Minister persuade some 6% of the bill. Does the Minister welcome Ofgem’s oil producers to pass on the reduction in oil prices to the review of that subject, so that we can have proper, fairer consumer? Price rises hit a lot of poor families because pricing across the United Kingdom? of their impact on public transport and the cost of living in general. Have the Government had any discussions Matthew Hancock: Of course I welcome Ofgem’s about that, and how do they intend to achieve it? review into the matter, and I think it is an important question. If we simply socialise prices across the whole Matthew Hancock: The Government have had of the UK, somebody has to pay those prices. The key discussions about that. Ultimately, those changes can question is how we can sort that out in a way that be best driven by competition. I share the disdain of the represents the best value for money. We have always hon. Member for Clacton for prices and incomes policies had a relatively market-based approach, but the central in energy. Indeed, I think that he has missed some of the point of Government policy is to move even more in changes that we have made over the past couple of that direction. The other important point is that without years, not least in the Energy Act 2013. For instance, he the action that the Government have taken, the average argued for more competition between different technologies household dual-fuel bill would have been £100 higher so that those with the most potential can drive down this year. costs and improve the situation for consumers. By switching Energy efficiency is the most effective way to drive from a regime in which, as he described, subsidy is given down costs while cutting emissions and to bring down out to whatever renewable technology was brought electricity bills for people, families and households. I forward to a regime in which a controlled pot of subsidy am focused on that, and on ensuring that we get the best is auctioned to ensure that we get the best possible value possible value. The Government have expanded energy for money, we have made a change towards a market- efficiency enormously.Home insulation has been expanded oriented system. and the green deal has reached hundreds of thousands of people. Those changes will ensure that we get the Douglas Carswell: In the United States over the past best possible value for money and that people pay lower five years there has been a 26% reduction in wholesale bills, as far as is consistent with security of supply and gas prices and gas prices to consumers. Does the Minister our international obligations. That is the Government’s have something to learn about public policy from America? goal and we have made progress, but I have no doubt that there is more to do. Matthew Hancock: I have no doubt that the massive Question put and agreed to. expansion of the extraction of shale gas in America has had a downward impact on gas prices. Allied to that is the fact that America did not have many export 5pm terminals—it is now building them—which meant that Sitting adjourned. 39WS Written Statements10 DECEMBER 2014 Written Statements 40WS

Government are also making changes involving the Written Statements relevant property rules relating to appointments for the benefit of the deceased’s surviving partner, which will Wednesday 10 December 2014 apply to all deaths on or after 10 December 2014. Simplifying “link company” requirements for consortium claims With effect from 10 December, the Government have TREASURY published draft legislation to simplify the tax system by removing all requirements relating to the location of the “link company” for consortium claims to group Finance Bill 2015 relief. Detail of the clauses published today can be found in The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David the “Overview of Legislation in Draft” document, which Gauke): The Government have consulted on a number also includes tax information impact notes for each of tax policies following their announcement at Budget measure. All publications will be available on the gov.uk 2014. Today, the Government are publishing responses website. to these consultations alongside draft legislation to be included in Finance Bill 2015. This fulfils our objective to confirm the majority of intended tax changes at least BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS three months ahead of publication. Draft legislation will be open for technical consultation until 4 February 2015. EU Competitiveness Council The Government are publishing draft legislation on policies announced at Budget 2014 and earlier, including: A package of four changes in response to the Office The Minister for Business and Enterprise (Matthew of Tax Simplification’s recommendations for simplifying Hancock): My noble Friend the Parliamentary Under the system of employee benefits and expenses; Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills and Minister for Intellectual Property (Baroness Neville- The introduction of capital gains tax on future gains Rolfe) has today made the following statement. made by non-residents disposing of UK residential The Competitiveness Council took place in Brussels on property from April 2015; 4-5 December. I represented the UK during the internal A measure to allow the Government to make regulations market and industry discussion on day one, with Shan which give non-charity intermediaries a greater role in Morgan the Deputy Permanent Representative to the EU operating gift aid; representing the UK for the research discussion on day two. A registration scheme for alcohol wholesalers to reduce The Council opened with a discussion on the single market. The Commission noted that the President’s investment the illicit trade in alcohol products. plan was not just about the ¤300 billion investment proposed The Government will also publish draft legislation on but also the wider investment environment which included policies announced at the autumn statement 2014 including: the single market. The Commission then emphasised that the single market in services, including the ambitious An increase in the level of the income tax personal implementation of the services directive was a key priority allowance to £10,600 from April 2015; and there would be a renewed strategy in 2015 focusing on A new tax relief for the production of children’s the business services, construction and retail sectors; this television programmes. reflects UK key priorities. Joint letters on services and the digital single market prepared by like minded member states A new tax—the diverted profits tax—to counter the and signed by the UK were presented to the Council. I spoke use of aggressive tax planning techniques used by to support the Commission’s view that the single market was multinational enterprises to divert profits from the UK important in the context of the investment package and to will be applied from 1 April 2015 using a 25% rate; argue for a sectoral approach to services. Several other Legislation that gives the UK power to implement member states intervened in support. Others welcomed the Commission’s approach to services and thought that there the G20-OECD agreed model for country-by-country were many regulatory and non- regulatory obstacles in place reporting; and that priority should be to ensure existing legislation was The Government have also published draft legislation applied correctly. for the following Finance Bill 2015 measures, with effect On the digital single market, most member states supported from 10 December 2014: the need for action, with different member states pressing different priorities such as ecommerce and copyright. A Inheritance tax simplification of trust charges and new number of member states were keen to see more action on rules to target tax avoidance through the use of multiple energy within the single market. The Commission noted trusts member states support for a sectoral approach to services The Government are introducing rules about adding and potentially a need for a country specific approach. The property to trusts on the same day to target inheritance presidency concluded the discussion by noting the need to tax avoidance through the use of multiple trusts. This remove barriers to a single market including through a sectoral approach on services and through improvements to will apply to all charges arising on or after 6 April 2015 the investment environment. in respect of all relevant property trusts created on or I was pleased that the draft conclusions on smart regulation after 10 December 2014. To prevent forestalling, it will were adopted without amendment, including important language also apply to relevant property trusts created before calling on the Commission to develop and put in place 10 December 2014 where property is added on or after “reduction targets in particularly burdensome areas.” Others this date to more than one trust on the same day. The said that these were the most ambitious conclusions on the 41WS Written Statements10 DECEMBER 2014 Written Statements 42WS

subject to date and particularly welcomed the focus on The UK highlighted the importance of a sound science targets. I believe these conclusions are a significant step evidence base in policy making (referring to Sir Mark Walport’s forward and reflect a success for UK advocacy on better recent report on risk and regulation) and reminded the regulation. Commission of the need to indicate how this will be handled The draft Council conclusions on industrial competitiveness in future within the Commission’s processes. Commissioner were adopted, with the Commission noting that they were Moedas acknowledged the UK’s points on the importance consistent with their priorities on smart, clean industry, of scientific evidence in his concluding remarks on the item. digitalised manufacturing, the bio based economy and securing The Council agreed Council conclusions on the Partnership the energy supply through a single market for energy. I for Research and Innovation in the Mediterranean Area intervened to emphasise the importance of the single market (PRIMA) initiative. Fourteen countries (not including the to manufacturing, welcoming similar comments that the UK) have indicated their willingness to participate. The Commissioner has made in previous speeches. In response to main subject of ongoing debate is the formal mechanism by the discussion paper most member states supported giving which the initiative will be funded. the Competitiveness Council a stronger role in commenting The Council also agreed without substantial debate a set on dossiers in other policy areas. I intervened to propose of Council conclusions on the European research area (ERA), inviting the relevant Commissioner to the Competitiveness noting the positive findings in the Commission’s progress Council. The Council also recognised the importance of the report published in September and looking forward to the first SME Envoy report. finalisation by mid-2015 of the ERA roadmap (a plan to The presidency opened the debate on package travel by secure greater benefit from ERA between now and 2020). welcoming the progress on the questions of scope, insolvency Council conclusions were also adopted without debate noting protection and the level of harmonisation, which were identified the contents of the Commission’s communication on research by the Competitiveness Council in May 2014 as the outstanding and innovation as sources of renewed growth. issues. Although a general approach was agreed by a qualified The research session of the meeting concluded with two majority, opposing voices came close to creating a blocking brief information items, one on the blue growth research minority. Member states complained about a variety of initiative and another on the plans of the upcoming Latvian more minor issues, including the speed of the negotiation presidency in the area of research and innovation. The and the new concept of “assisted travel arrangements”. I Latvian Minister indicated that their presidency will focus spoke in favour of the text with the caveat that the UK on the mid-term review of EU2020 (including Innovation remained concerned about the potential implications for Union), the enhancement of the European research area repatriation of holidaymakers in the case of airline insolvency through the ERA roadmap process, better governance of within the context of the new directive. ERA, and advancing the Science 2.0 debate. A general approach to the revised cableways installation There were interventions at several points during the was adopted without comment. The revised text was acceptable morning on the recently announced investment plan of to the UK as it includes an exemption for historic installations, European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker. which avoids costly burdens for those who operate vintage Commissioner Moedas said that research and innovation funicular railways at resorts in the UK on a not-for-profit would play a central role in the package and emphasised the basis. intention to leverage additional resources for these purposes. A general approach was adopted on the revised personal Several member states, including the UK, asked for greater protective equipment regulation. I intervened to oppose the clarity on where the funding would come from and the expansion of scope to include domestic dishwashing and impact this would have on basic and applied research. oven gloves, which had not been justified by the impact The afternoon session was devoted to space matters, assessment and was an example of overzealous regulatory beginning with a debate on the future of European space approach by the Commission that needs to change. The policy. This was likewise the first meeting for Growth Commission defended the inclusion of these products on the Commissioner Elzbieta Biehkowska (who is responsible for grounds that EU manufacturers already produced gloves to space). The Commissioner emphasised her intention to develop the higher standard; their representative body, the European regular dialogue with the European space industry, to focus Safety Federation, had raised no objections to protection. on delivery of the flagship Copernicus and Galileo programmes, However the Commission noted UK concerns and looked and to stimulate research and innovation to ensure EU forward to discussions with the European Parliament. non-dependence in key technologies. A wide range of member Day one concluded with a presentation of their work state views was expressed in the ensuing debate. The UK programme from the incoming Latvian presidency. They stressed the need for an EU space policy developed in highlighted their three main priorities: increasing competitiveness, partnership with ESA and member states; the need to avoid seizing the digital agenda and strengthening the EU’s global legislation unless an internal market problem had been reach. demonstrated; for future trade negotiations to consider the I also attended an informal Council lunch at which Vice space sector; and for the EU and the European Space President Katainen presented the European investment plan Agency (ESA) to consider themselves as equal partners. for Europe and his plans for the ¤315 billion growth fund. I The Council also adopted without debate Council conclusions emphasised and welcomed the third pillar of the Commission on space renaissance. The meeting concluded with short plan which is to improve the investment environment through information items on the Copernicus programme and the work on the single market and regulatory barriers and asked outcomes of the ESA ministerial meeting, followed by a about the implications for Horizon 2020 expenditure. presentation by the astronaut Luca Parmitano. On research, innovation and space, this was Commissioner Carlos Moedas’ first Council meeting in his new role as Commissioner for Research, Science and Innovation. The Italian presidency opened the meeting with a discussion HOME DEPARTMENT on science with and for society, linking the debate back to the recent Rome declaration on responsible research and innovation (which the UK supports). Common themes in Justice and Home Affairs Council discussion included the importance of open access to data and publications, education in science, technology, engineering and mathematics (STEM), initiatives to improve gender equality in the field of research, and the need to reform The Secretary of State for the Home Department funding streams for research to ensure they are focused on (Mrs Theresa May): The Justice and Home Affairs excellence. (JHA) Council was held on 4 and 5 December in 43WS Written Statements10 DECEMBER 2014 Written Statements 44WS

Brussels. The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State Political agreement, supported by the UK, was reached for Justice, my right hon. Friend the Member for Epsom on the proposal to amend the EU insolvency regulation and Ewell (Chris Grayling), and I attended on behalf of 1346/2000. The presidency noted the importance of this the United Kingdom. The following items were discussed. file for cross-border insolvency and the considerable work that had gone into finding an acceptable compromise The justice day began with a discussion on the proposed with the European Parliament. The next step is for the general data protection regulation. The presidency sought text to be finalised by lawyers before adoption under a partial general approach on a number of articles the Latvian presidency. intended to provide member states with flexibility to adapt the application of the rules to their public sectors, The Council adopted a general approach on the and on chapter IX, on rules for data processing for proposed regulation on small claims, which the Government research, scientific and journalistic purposes. The generally welcome. The Council has agreed a threshold Commission encouraged member states to accept the of £3,137 for the maximum value of a claim under the compromise between common standards and a measure regulation, but expects this to be one of the issues for of flexibility now available for particular national negotiation during trilogue with the European Parliament, approaches. A majority of member states, including the which will start in January. UK, agreed the deal. Next, the Council endorsed, without discussion, The discussion of the data protection regulation orientation guidelines for the negotiation of the draft continued with an orientation debate on the presidency’s regulation on simplifying the cross-border acceptance proposed structure for a “one stop shop” mechanism, of certain public documents—abolishing the process of which is intended to reduce burdens for business by “legalisation”. The guidelines will steer discussions at enabling all of their operations in different member working group level, and narrow the scope of the draft states to be overseen by the data protection regulator in regulation; allow certified translations to be accepted in their home state. While there was support for the principle other member states, and allow for simple translations and most member states accepted the compromise proposed of original national documents rather than translated by the presidency, the UK and a number of other stand-alone forms with their own evidentiary value. member states expressed concerns that, with legally In a “state of play” update on the proposed legal aid binding powers for the European data protection board directive, the presidency noted that there were still (EDPB) to resolve disputes, the model proposed would divergences of views between member states, some of fail to achieve the stated objectives of legal certainty, which advocated more flexibility on the provision of quick decisions and proximity for the data subject. The legal aid in the case of minor offences, while others presidency concluded that a majority of member states wished to see the directive extended to ordinary legal accepted the basic elements of its proposal, including aid, beyond the provisional legal aid proposed by the the proposed European data protection board, but noted Commission. The presidency will provide the incoming that questions remained, and tasked the official-level Latvian presidency with a document setting out their working group to develop the detail in the light of this understanding of the main outstanding points in the steer. negotiations. The UK has not opted into this directive. The presidency also provided a separate update on The presidency gave a state of play update on the the proposed data protection directive covering the draft directive on the fight against fraud by means of processing of personal data for criminal justice purposes. criminal law—the so-called “PIF” directive—noting that The file remains under discussion, and the working a few substantive issues remained. These included whether group has recently focused on the scope of the directive. to include VAT in scope, the definition of fraud, and the The UK Government believe that the priority should be definition of serious offences. on agreeing the text of the general regulation. The presidency invited Ministers to take note of its The Council adopted a general approach on the latest text of the proposals on the applicable law and proposed directive on the presumption of innocence in jurisdiction in relation to matrimonial and registered criminal proceedings. Commissioner Jourova supported partnership property regimes, which it hoped would be the Council compromise, though regretted that the an acceptable compromise. It suggested a period of absolute right to silence and right not to self incriminate reflection to last no longer than until the end of 2015 to had not been fully upheld in the proposed text. The UK allow member states to consider whether unanimity has not opted into the directive. could be reached. The UK has not opted into these proposals. There was a partial general approach on the draft Eurojust regulation, covering all parts except the provisions Under AOB the presidency invited Council to take covering its relationship with the European Public stock of the activities undertaken over the course of Prosecutor (EPPO) and data protection. However, the 2014 by the Special Committee on Organised Crime, Commission stated that they still have a number of Corruption and Money Laundering (CRIM), established issues with the text, including the need for them to be by the European Parliament. able to participate in administrative decision-making The Latvian Justice Minister set out his priorities for because of their budgetary responsibility, and the proposed their forthcoming presidency. These included reaching compensation mechanism. On the EPPO, Ministers a general approach on the data protection regulation at concluded that there was a need to strengthen the the March Council, continuing work on the “PIF” prosecutor’s independence within the supervisory regime. directive and the EPPO, reaching a general approach on They noted the presidency’s suggested drafting but the legal aid directive by March, continuing work on the mandated further discussion at expert level on this small claims regulation, reaching agreement on the issue. The UK is not participating in the EPPO and has access to public documents file, and continuing work on not opted in to the draft Eurojust regulation. the common European sales law. 45WS Written Statements10 DECEMBER 2014 Written Statements 46WS

The interior day began in mixed committee which bilateral arrangements for PNR. There was general included a discussion on “managing migratory flows”. agreement among member states that an EU instrument This focused on the implementation of the October was needed to set common standards and protect privacy JHA Council conclusions on this topic. The Commission and that the directive should still be pursued. The UK introduced its “scorecard” on progress, and the incoming agreed, but stated that we would not support a PNR Latvian presidency informed the Council of its commitment directive which was overly constrained and that in the to continuing this work. There has been progress, including interim further progress on intergovernmental agreements with the launch of the Khartoum process, which focused should be pursued. on people smuggling and human trafficking in the horn Under AOB, the Commission congratulated the of Africa. presidency for the organisation of recent meetings on With regard to the Mediterranean, member states the Rabat and Khartoum processes in Rome and said continue to provide support for Frontex’s Operation work would continue on greater co-ordination across Triton, while the presidency confirmed that the Italian the board on migration issues. Slovenia informed Council search and rescue operation “Mare Nostrum” would be of the outcome of the Salzburg forum ministerial conference phased out by the end of January. in Slovenia on 11-12 November. The conference had The Council underlined the importance of implementing discussed the fight against foreign fighters, support for the common European asylum system (CEAS) and of the integrated approach for the western Balkan regions, all member states providing concrete solidarity to those strengthening regional co-operation and the new regulation facing particular pressures. There were calls from some for training of law enforcement authorities. member states for further resettlement activities, including The presidency set out the background to the students for a “distribution key”guiding allocation among member and researchers directive and updated Council on the states, while others made clear their views that resettlement recent progress made, in particular on the scope. It should remain voluntary.The Council agreed that proposals hoped that member states could agree to a compromise for enhanced regional devolvement and protection package by the end of the year, so as to begin negotiations programmes would continue to be taken forward. with the European Parliament early next year. The The UK emphasised the need to focus on upstream presidency also said that negotiations continued on the activities in countries of origin and transit and to tackle amendments to the Dublin III regulation and aimed to smugglers and traffickers, and joined other Ministers in reach agreement on a Council position. The Commission calling for all member states to fully respect their hoped that Council would reach a balanced position responsibilities under the CEAS, including the need to and that trilogues could start as soon as possible. fingerprint and register claims. The incoming Latvian presidency explained its priorities The Commission presented its latest biannual report for interior business. It would concentrate on on the functioning of the Schengen area, highlighting implementation of the strategic guidelines for the justice increased illegal migration at the EU’s external borders and home affairs area, as agreed at the June European and calling for member states to fulfil their commitment Council, with a particular focus on: countering foreign to share information on secondary illegal migration fighters, renewing the EU internal security strategy and movements within the Schengen area. The Government continuing the work on a comprehensive and structured have a strong interest in the effective functioning of the approach to managing migratory flows. It would continue Schengen area and continue to work with European legislative work on the students and researchers directives, partners to tackle migratory pressures across the EU. amendments to the Dublin regulation, the visa code The UK emphasised how the openness of the Schengen recast, Europol, the European Police College (CEPOL) area and the principle of free movement continue to be and the smart borders package and continue progress exploited, for example by organised gangs and criminals, with PNR. A special priority for the Latvian presidency and how the EU needs to work harder to manage these would be strengthening co-operation with eastern partners. risks and put the right safeguards in place. Latvia would host an Eastern Partnership meeting in the margins of the informal Council on 29-30 January. The Council and the Commission noted achievements during 15 years of Schengen evaluation and agreed On both days, under AOB, Council was informed of Council conclusions which authorise the continuation the outcome of the EU-US JHA ministerial meeting, of Schengen evaluation work within the Council under on 12-13 November. the new Schengen evaluation mechanism. Article 10 of protocol 36 to the treaties During the main Council, member states returned to Under the arrangements in article 10 of protocol 36 the issue of counter terrorism and in particular foreign to the treaties, which were negotiated by the last fighters, following discussions on this issue at the October Government, the United Kingdom had the right to opt Council. Member states, along with the Commission out of all EU police and judicial co-operation measures and Europol, discussed how best to tackle the threat adopted before the entry into force of the Lisbon treaty. posed by those returning from Syria and Iraq, as well as In July 2013, following votes in both Houses of Parliament efforts to tackle radicalisation. endorsing the Government’s decision, the Prime Minister Over lunch, the Commission (Avramopoulos) stressed formally exercised the opt-out. This decision took effect its commitment to achieving an EU passenger name on 1 December 2014 and on that date the United records (PNR) directive, despite the European Parliament’s Kingdom opted out of more than 100 EU police and referral of the EU Canada PNR agreement to the criminal justice powers. Court of Justice of the European Union. The UK The Government have always been clear that we expressed disappointment at the likelihood of significant wanted to remain part of a smaller number of measures delay and stressed that in the face of a severe threat it which give our police and law enforcement agencies was now essential for member states to press ahead with vital and practical help to tackle serious crime and keep 47WS Written Statements10 DECEMBER 2014 Written Statements 48WS the public safe. Following consultation with operational are committed to the scrutiny process and do not override partners and the relevant parliamentary Committees, them lightly. However, the circumstances were such in and detailed discussions with the European Commission, this case that it was necessary in order to deliver on a the Council and other member states, the Government significant and successful negotiation where the measures reached final agreement to rejoin 35 crucial police and implemented an outcome endorsed by both Houses of criminal justice measures with debates in both houses Parliament. on 10 and 17 November this year. The Government are confident that the deal reached On 20 November 2014, following votes in both Houses is a good one for all parties and that the smaller of Parliament endorsing the Government’s package, the package of measures that we have rejoined will give our Prime Minister notified the President of the Council of police and law enforcement agencies vital and practical Ministers of the United Kingdom’s wish to rejoin the tools to maintain co-operation with our European partners. 35 measures set out in Command Paper 8897: “Decision pursuant to Article 10(5) of Protocol 36 to The Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union”. A copy of TRANSPORT the Prime Minister’s notification letter has been placed in the Library of the House. Advanced Biofuels A Council and a Commission decision were required to give effect to the United Kingdom’s application to The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport rejoin the measures. These processes were concluded on (Mr Robert Goodwill): My noble Friend, the Minister of 1 December and copies of both decisions were deposited State for Transport, (Baroness Kramer), has made the in Parliament on 4 December. Explanatory memoranda following written ministerial statement: for both decisions have now also been deposited in I have today launched the Government’s £25 million Parliament. advanced biofuels demonstration competition to support The Government voted, via the written procedure, to the development of a domestic advanced biofuel industry, approve the adoption of the Schengen Council decision, we have also published the independent feasibility study on in order to ensure that it entered into force on 1 December the Department’s website at: www.gov.uk/dft into the project without an operational gap for our law enforcement and the opportunities available for UK industry. agencies occurring. This decision required the overriding This is a major step forward for the UK. According to the of the scrutiny reserve resolution, but did no more than feasibility study, gains from the domestic supply of converting low value waste to high value transport fuel could be worth approve the UK’s participation in the six Schengen up to £130 million gross value added (GVA) to the UK by measures that had already been endorsed by both Houses 2030, and potentially up to £500 million per year including of Parliament. Given unanimity was required for the exports. Therefore, I believe that using our world class measure to pass, the Government had to vote to approve research capabilities, this competition will provide real this decision to ensure that the package of measures opportunities for UK businesses to become a global leader could come into operation as soon as possible, to avoid in this market. a legal vacuum which could have arisen, to allow Originally announced by the then Parliamentary Under negotiations to conclude, and in order to conclude an Secretary of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for advantageous package deal with other member states. Lewes (Norman Baker) last August, the £25 million of capital funding, supported by significant private sector The Commission decision, which contained no more investment, is designed to achieve the construction of up to than a short provision approving the UK’s application three demonstration-scale advanced biofuel plants in the to rejoin the 29 non-Schengen measures, did not require UK. Awards will be made in 2015 and the funding will be the formal endorsement of the United Kingdom or available until 2018. other member states prior to its adoption. Relative to first-generation biofuels (those made from traditional crops, starch, sugars or vegetable oil), advanced Two further decisions relating to this matter fuels could deliver greater carbon savings without the same were adopted by the Council at the Transport concerns around food security and land use change. Advanced Telecommunications and Energy (TTE) Council on fuel technologies have the potential to reduce our reliance on 27 November. The UK did not have a vote on the imported energy, by turning unwanted waste products into transitional decision, but voted in favour of the financial valuable transport fuel. consequences decision in order to secure the advantageous Alongside the competition, the Department for Transport deal we had reached with other member states and has also established a transport energy taskforce to consider ensure that the package of measures could come into options for supporting advanced biofuels through policy operation as soon as possible. The European Scrutiny mechanisms. We are also supporting a sub target at EU level. Committee did not clear the draft Council decision on Expressions of interest (Eol) are now being sought from potential bidders until 13 February 2015, shortlisted projects financial consequences from scrutiny ahead of this Council. will then be invited to submit full proposals. As a result, this decision required the overriding of the scrutiny reserve resolution to allow negotiations to conclude, Rail Franchising: InterCity East Coast and in order to conclude the deal with other member states. The Government’s undertaking not to override scrutiny The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick save in exceptional circumstances is embodied in scrutiny McLoughlin): On 27 November 2014 I announced my reserve resolutions of the House of Commons (last intention to award the InterCity East Coast rail franchise updated in 1998) and the House of Lords (in 2010). to Inter City Railways Ltd, a joint venture of Stagecoach These resolutions are the cornerstone of the scrutiny Transport Holdings Ltd and Virgin Holdings Ltd, following procedures and provide assurance to Parliament that the completion of a standstill period. I am happy to Ministers will not agree to measures in the Council of confirm to the House that the standstill period has now Ministers unless scrutiny has been completed. Ministers ended and that we completed the contract after the 49WS Written Statements10 DECEMBER 2014 Written Statements 50WS markets closed last night—9 December 2014. This means The Council will seek political agreement on a directive that Inter City Railways Ltd can now begin the mobilisation concerning working time in inland waterway transport. process that will mean the new franchise will start on It will also seek agreement on a general approach to a 1 March 2015. directive on the employment rights of seafarers. The new InterCity East Coast franchise will last for The Council will seek a general approach to the eight years and will deliver massive benefits for passengers, proposed regulation on the European network of taxpayers and staff. Inter City Railways Ltd will oversee employment services (EURES). and facilitate the introduction of the new state of the art Intercity Express programme trains and will increase There will be an exchange of views on the subject of total capacity on the franchise by around 50%. They “Investing in YouthEmployment”, including discussions plan to deliver new services, including providing direct on the implementation of the youth guarantee and the connections to London to five destinations that have European alliance for apprenticeships. not had services on the franchise before—Huddersfield, Sunderland, Middlesbrough, Dewsbury and Thornaby— The European Commission will present the annual and faster journey times to many destinations along the growth survey 2015, the joint employment report and route. Passengers will benefit from an investment of the alert mechanism report, and seek the views of £140 million in improving facilities at stations and on member states. trains and the taxpayer will benefit from around £3.3 billion The Italian presidency will report on the progress of of premium to be paid to Government over the life of the directive to encourage improvements in the workplace the contract. health and safety of women who are pregnant or Inter City Railways Ltd have great long-term plans breastfeeding. The Council will also seek a general for the Intercity East Coast and are the right company approach to the proposed directive on the gender balance to take them forward with passengers at the heart of the of non-executive directors on company boards. franchise. I am delighted with this award and look forward to working in partnership with the new operator There will be a progress report and orientation debate for the benefit of passengers, taxpayers and the industry. on the first reading of a proposed directive on equal treatment of persons irrespective of religion or belief, disability, age or sexual orientation. The Council will EDUCATION also adopt conclusions on the review of progress of the EU institutions and member states on the Beijing platform Employment, Social Policy, Health and for action—“Beijing plus 20”. Consumer Affairs Council Under any other business, the Italian presidency will present a report of the Rome conference on “Unlocking The Minister for Employment (Esther McVey): I will the potential of the Social Economy for EU Growth”, be attending the Employment, Social Policy, Health held in Rome on 17-18 November 2014. The Latvian and Consumer Affairs Council (EPSCO), which will be delegation will present the work programme of their held on 11 December 2014 in Brussels. upcoming presidency. ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 10 December 2014

Col. No. Col. No. NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 855 PRIME MINISTER ...... 864 Corporation Tax ...... 861 Engagements...... 864 Economy/Inward Investment ...... 855 Engagements...... 872 Party Funding...... 860 Fixed-term Parliaments...... 873 Security Situation...... 858 Spending Priorities (Defence)...... 872 Welfare Cap ...... 863 Youth Unemployment...... 863 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Wednesday 10 December 2014

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 40WS TRANSPORT ...... 48WS EU Competitiveness Council ...... 40WS Advanced Biofuels ...... 48WS Rail Franchising: InterCity East Coast ...... 48WS EDUCATION...... 49WS Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer Affairs Council ...... 49WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 42WS TREASURY ...... 39WS Justice and Home Affairs Council...... 42WS Finance Bill 2015 ...... 39WS Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

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CONTENTS

Wednesday 10 December 2014

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 855] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Wales Prime Minister

Resettlement of Vulnerable Syrian Refugees [Col. 877] Answer to urgent question—(James Brokenshire)

Preparing Young People for Work [Col. 891] Statement—(Nicky Morgan)

Planning Consent Applications (Contracts) [Col. 905] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Mr Nigel Evans)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Stamp Duty Land Tax Bill [Col. 908] Motion for Second Reading—(Mr Gauke)—agreed to

Wales Bill [Col. 923] Lords amendments considered

Prison Officers (Work-related Stress) [Col. 951] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Tibet [Col. 291WH] Sickle Cell Anaemia [Col. 315WH] Ofsted [Col. 323WH] Mental Health (Cambridgeshire) [Col. 344WH] Energy Policy and Living Standards [Col. 354WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Statements [Col. 39WS]

Written Answers to Questions [The written answers can now be found at http://www.parliament.uk/writtenanswers]