Vol. 183 Wednesday, No. 7 5 April 2006

DI´OSPO´ IREACHTAI´ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

SEANAD E´ IREANN

TUAIRISC OIFIGIU´ IL—Neamhcheartaithe (OFFICIAL REPORT—Unrevised)

Wednesday, 5 April 2006.

Business of Seanad ………………………………497 Order of Business …………………………………498 European Council: Statements ……………………………515 Irish Language: Motion ………………………………541 Diabetes Policy: Statements ……………………………577 Adjournment Matters: State Airports…………………………………594 Water and Sewerage Schemes …………………………597 497 498

SEANAD E´ IREANN Order of Business. Ms O’Rourke: I did not ask permission of the ———— Cathaoirleach in advance but I would like to for- mally congratulate Senator Leyden on his becom- De´ Ce´adaoin, 5 Aibrea´n 2006. ing Senator of the year before everybody else Wednesday, 5 April 2006. does so.

———— An Cathaoirleach: The Leader knows I should be informed of all these matters. Chuaigh an Cathaoirleach i gceannas ar 2.30 p.m. Ms O’Rourke: I know but I just never got to the Cathaoirleach. ———— An Cathaoirleach: Okay. Paidir. Prayer. Ms O’Rourke: Is that all right?

———— Mr. U. Burke: It is once-off. An Cathaoirleach: I hope it is only once-off Business of Seanad. because—— An Cathaoirleach: I have received notice from Senator Cox that, on the motion for the Adjourn- Ms O’Rourke: The Cathaoirleach hopes ment of the House today, she proposes to raise Senator Leyden is nominated Senator of the year the following matter: only once. The need for the Minister for Transport to An Cathaoirleach: On these congratulatory outline the details of his discussion with Dublin matters—— Airport Authority on the proposed sale of the Great Southern Hotels group. Ms O’Rourke: He is one of our own. I have also received notice from Senator Ulick Ms White: Hear, hear. Burke of the following matter: An Cathaoirleach: We are all delighted about The need for the Minister for the Envir- the honour bestowed upon the Senator. We will onment, Heritage and Local Government to let it go at that. include the Kinvara sewerage scheme in the fast-track process for schemes costing less than Ms O’Rourke: We are but I wanted to be the \ 5 million as this scheme has been costed at first to congratulate him. approximately \3 million. I have also received notice from Senator Kitt of An Cathaoirleach: That will do. the following matter: Ms O’Rourke: It is because of his industry. The need for the Minister for the Envir- The Order of Business is Nos.1, 2 and 24, onment, Heritage and Local Government to motion 23. No. 1, statements on the European clarify the position on a sewerage scheme for Council, to be taken on the conclusion of the the village of Creggs, County Galway. Order of Business and to conclude not later than 5 p.m., with the contributions of spokespersons I have also received notice from Senator Bannon not to exceed ten minutes and those of other of the following matter: Senators not to exceed six minutes. The Minister The need for the Minister for Community, will be called upon to reply not later than five minutes before the conclusion of the statements; Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs to give an update No. 2, statements on diabetes, to be taken at 7.15 on essential funding for Legan neighbourhood p.m. and to conclude not later than 8.30 p.m., watch and community alert, County Longford, with the contributions of spokespersons not to under the programme of grants for locally- exceed ten minutes and those of other Senators based community and voluntary organisations. not to exceed six minutes. The Minister will be I regard the matters raised by the Senators as called upon to reply not later than five minutes suitable for discussion on the Adjournment. I before the conclusion of the statements; and No. have selected those raised by Senators Cox, Ulick 24, motion 23, to be taken from 5 p.m. to 7 p.m. Burke and Kitt and they will be taken at the con- Mr. B. Hayes: I, too, warmly congratulate clusion of business. Senator Bannon may give Senator Leyden on his well-deserved trophy. I notice on another day of the matter he wishes suspect his victory will be the start of his elec- to raise. tion campaign. 499 Order of 5 April 2006. Business 500

An Cathaoirleach: The Senator should proceed on the death in Donegal, I remind the House of a to the Order of Business. point I made recently that cancer screening could prevent more deaths than occur as a result of Mr. B. Hayes: I believe the Cathaoirleach is gunfire or road accidents. I ask the Leader for a right. sensible, rational, ordinary person’s debate on the extraordinary 31 items which will attract penalty Mr. Leyden: Do not curb them. points in the future. They have received wide acclaim in the media and from politicians. I would Mr. B. Hayes: The murder of Mr. Denis like to have them explained. Somebody who Donaldson in Donegal last evening highlights the drives the wrong way down a dual carriageway fact there are still political fanatics who pose as does not need two points, but rather committal to republicans. There are three points I would like a mental hospital or a prison. The same is true of to make on that appalling killing. First, I was somebody driving the wrong way around a quite surprised by the Government’s initial reac- roundabout. tion to the killing because it seemed to take at Widening the scope of penalty points avoids face value the statement issued by the IRA. We the issue. The real issue is revealed by the figure know the form of the IRA and that it has in the published yesterday. One third of all road fatalit- past issued statements that have been proven to ies are caused by drink. If we want to do some- be untrue. In many respects, the bigger the crime, thing serious, it is not about the accumulation of the bigger the lie on the part of that organisation. points for silly misdemeanours. What needs to be I advise the Government to be a little more cir- done, as called for by groups such as Alcohol cumspect about this case before it replies in Action Ireland and others, is random breath test- respect thereof. The killing has all the hallmarks ing. If such testing were put into operation we of a similar murder in the late 1990s, that of Mr. would at one blow solve one third of the fatalities Eamon Collins. Mr. Collins had been in Sinn Fe´in as a result of road traffic accidents. and became an informer. While it is not politically correct to say so, I Second, this is a particularly dangerous time. believe introducing 31 new offences brings poli- The criminal edifice of Sinn Fe´in-IRA, partic- tics into disrepute. I defy anyone to understand ularly along the Border, is now being dismantled all the offences. Some issues are inexplicable. piece by piece because of excellent work by the References are made to road markings which do Criminal Assets Bureau and the Assets Recovery not exist on many roads here. This is a simple Agency in Northern Ireland. We should not media outing. I wish Gay Byrne well with his 31 underestimate the tensions that exist within the items. No more than with the rest of what he republican movement as a result of the fact that dodgy diesel, cheap cigarettes and a substantial needs to do, there is a simple thing we could do. portfolio of property in Manchester and else- We could introduce random breath testing, which where are now being rightly removed from that would eliminate one third of the fatalities. It criminal organisation. I ask people to be mindful would make sense and have an immediate impact. of this fact. Let us see the political will to do so and disregard Third, the gruesome killing of Mr. Donaldson the nonsense. People accumulating points for silly is a chilling reminder that there are people within misdemeanours will do nothing to save lives on our society and the republican movement who the road. still believe the way forward is through intimi- dation and the use and threat of violence. We Mr. Ryan: I wish to be associated with the com- have a responsibility to hold our nerve at this pliments to my two colleagues on the recognition time. The Taoiseach and the British Prime Mini- for themselves and for this House. ster also have a responsibility to continue their While it seems it will not happen, I would like work in Armagh tomorrow when they will to have a debate in advance of legislation on the attempt to breathe some life into this process. proposed sale of a majority stake in Aer Lingus. The Government should not take at face value an IRA statement. We know its form; in the past it Mr. Ross: Hear, hear. has lied to us about a range of incidents. In the full light of day we should be much more circum- Mr. Ryan: Contrary to what people might spect now. imagine, I do not carry any ideological baggage about State ownership per se, nor about the Mr. O’Toole: I wish to be associated with the opposite. We must learn from our experience and words of congratulations to Senator Leyden. I should do what we believe will work. Manifestly, also note that our esteemed colleague, Senator the privatisation of Telecom E´ ireann did not Ross, also featured in the frame. The rest of us work in terms of providing us with the scale of can only hope to do better and try a little harder investment and dynamism that we wanted. next year to emulate what they have done. We Eircom is now being lauded by various inter- will do our best. national agencies as being a wonderfully man- In recognising the points made by Senator aged company because of how it can outsmart the Brian Hayes regarding the Government’s views regulator on every occasion. That is not a great 501 Order of 5 April 2006. Business 502 advertisement for whatever was supposed to be best wishes to the Taoiseach and the British the advantage of its privatisation. Prime Minister in the hope that they will be suc- I am still not persuaded as to why Aer Lingus cessful in their efforts this week to move the should be privatised. I have the feeling that the peace process forward. It is logical that we should rancid meat in the middle has infected the whole do so, given that they are trying to restore full sandwich and we are talking about ideology tak- and meaningful democratic structures to the ing over. I would like the Minister to come to the North of Ireland and to respond to the wishes of House to explain to me the business case for the the people who indicated in the referendums on privatisation of Aer Lingus because I have not the Good Friday Agreement that they share that heard it made yet. Perhaps there is a good case, goal. I accept the statement of the republican but I have not yet been persuaded. movement that it was not involved in this murder. The point was made to me this morning that when John Gilligan comes out of prison, he will Mr. B. Hayes: Of course you do. be able to open a pharmacy. Nobody will be in a position to stop him because there are no regu- Labhra´sO´ Murchu´ : I believe that the Govern- lations relating to the sorts of people who are fit ment reacted in a balanced and responsible man- to run pharmacies. We have no way of stopping ner. We must bear in mind that there is a very unfit pharmacists from continuing to operate, as dangerous vacuum at present. I ask republicans no suitable regulations are in place. No new legis- and Unionists to act in a responsible manner. We lation in this regard has been passed since 1875, must remind ourselves that the republicans rep- even though further legislation has been prom- resented by Sinn Fe´in are the major Nationalist ised for many years. party in the North of Ireland. I appeal to Dr. Pais- We always seem to wait until a tragedy takes ley and the DUP to give positive leadership to place before we discover that we need to update the people who put him in a position of authority. our legislation. We are now talking about chang- It is not helpful to sit on the fence. ing the legislation relating to the medical pro- Dr. Paisley’s negative approach to every effort fession as a matter of urgency, on foot of the that is being made is not helpful. There needs to tragic events in Drogheda. Will we wait until a be a response from Unionists as well as republi- tragedy takes place in the pharmaceutical sector cans. There is no war. There has been full decom- before we amend the legislation that regulates it? missioning, except by loyalist paramilitaries. We Can the Leader ask the Ta´naiste to state when should not try to score any political points. We legislation to regulate pharmacies and pharma- must move the situation forward in a united cists will be introduced? Such legislation, which manner. has been promised since early last year and has been needed for the past 30 years, is hopelessly Ms White: Hear, hear. and sadly overdue. We should not allow people who have been Mr. Finucane: The tragic death of Veronica convicted of drug offences to sell legal drugs legit- Guerin ten years ago galvanised the nation. Mrs. imately after they leave prison. I am aware of the Nora Owen, who was Minister for Justice at the case of a person who was struck off the register time, introduced the Proceeds of Crime Act 1996 of pharmacists in Britain but then started to do and established the Criminal Assets Bureau, some locum work as a pharmacist in my home which is doing excellent work at present. One of city of Cork. He was entitled to work as a phar- the people who was involved in the murder of macist in Ireland even though he had been dis- Veronica Guerin is due to be released this week. barred from working as a pharmacist in Britain. It was planned that the person in question would This is not a trivial matter. appear on this Friday’s “The Late Late Show”. I Given that pharmacists deal with extremely must compliment the senior executives in RTE dangerous materials and help to protect us who have made the correct decision that this per- against misuse, abuse and mistakes, the least we son would not appear on “The Late Late Show” can do is to put in place a modern regulatory this weekend. It would have sent out very wrong environment in which they can operate. The signals to the outside community. That person Government and the Department of Health and was to be accommodated in a first-class quality Children should do some proactive work in this hotel in Dublin on the first night of his release regard by introducing the appropriate legislation prior to this programme. instead of waiting to react to crises. Mr. Kitt: I want to ask the Leader if she could An Cathaoirleach: As many Senators are offer- find some time to discuss the school transport ing, I ask speakers to be as brief as possible. I issue in view of the tragedy in Clara, and indeed, do not want to curtail them, but to ensure that last year’s tragedy in County Meath. As far back everyone who is offering will be facilitated. as 1999 when I chaired the Joint Committee on Education, many members recommended change Labhra´sO´ Murchu´ : In light of the terrible in the school transport scheme as regards seat atrocity that happened in County Donegal yester- belts and on the issue of three persons occupying day, it would be right for the House to send its two seats, the policy that was in place at the time. 503 Order of 5 April 2006. Business 504

[Mr. Kitt.] viously from the Government to the effect that The Government reviewed the position in 2002 it wished to bring forward such legislation. The and also came up with recommendations. It Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform would now be timely to have a debate on those set up a working group to examine the issues proposed changes. Hopefully, they will soon be involved. I understood the group was to report in put in place. March but the Taoiseach said on Monday that it There appear to be two different regimes of will not report until September. That means we school transport, the Department of Education will not have legislation before us until the aut- and Science on the one hand and private contrac- umn at the earliest. Will the Leader establish if tors on the other. It is time to bring all schemes the Government is serious about what it is say- up to the same standard for the transportation of ing? Will we see legislation before the House and students to school. passed before the next general election or will we just continue to hear nice comments and general Mr. Quinn: I ask the Leader to consider having support but nothing to back it up? If it is to be a debate on the Forfa´s report published today on the latter is not good enough as far as I and the Ireland’s oil dependency, which is quite frighten- gay and lesbian community are concerned. ing. It points out that in 2004 we used 9 million tonnes of oil, double what was consumed in 1990. Mr. B. Hayes: Hear, hear. Ireland is the third largest user of oil per capita of the older EU states. This is worthy of debate Mr. Lydon: I seek a debate following on from and is a worthwhile subject for this House. what Senator O’Toole said about the effects of Will the Leader please draw the attention of drink on driving. I understand that in Switzerland Deputy Hanafin, to the fact that the chief dental if one is caught drunk while driving, one loses adviser to the Minister for Health and Children, one’s licence for life. It does not mean that people who retired two years ago, has not been do not drink or drive there, it just means they do replaced? I gather that somebody is on not do the two together. Drunk driving causes a secondment to the Department of Health and third of all accidents while drunkenness causes Children, but this means, in effect, that dentistry most of the accidents in the home, etc. It is time is moving down the line and is not being given we had a straight debate on driving under the the attention it deserves. It amounts almost to a influence of alcohol. We in this House should do downgrading by stealth of the importance of den- what we can on the issue. We should acknowl- tistry to health. edge the fact that it is not possible for one to drink and drive properly. Dr. Mansergh: Like everyone else in this House, I deplore the squalid murder of Mr. Denis Mr. Ross: I endorse what Senator Ryan said. It Donaldson that took place in Donegal, com- is not the first time I have asked for a debate on pounding the tragedy for those close to him. I Aer Lingus. The Minister was very happy to welcome the unequivocal condemnation by the appear on “Prime Time” last night in order to Sinn Fe´in leadership, which I believe to be sin- answer no questions whatsoever. It would be cere. I hope those agencies that used Mr. helpful if he were to come into the House to Donaldson to make various manoeuvres, feel debate this very serious issue. It is one of the most suitably proud of themselves today, but I suspect important issues of the day. they are indifferent. As Senator O´ Murchu´ has It may surprise the House but I share Senator said, it underlines the importance of persevering Ryan’s belief that the Government has not yet in trying to establish the primacy of politics. made the business case for the privatisation of Unfortunately, there are still people who believe Aer Lingus. While there is a case and I tend to not merely that they have the right to take the believe in it, we are now in an extraordinary law into their own hands, but that they are the muddle where people do not know where they law. Such people need to become more and more stand. Last night, when asked, the Minister, of a minority. Deputy Cullen, indicated he did not know when On a lighter note, I welcome the rude health of privatisation will happen nor how many shares the public finances, as shown in yesterday’s the Government would hold. Such an approach is Exchequer return and the fact that this time a in danger of back-firing quite badly. larger party has been converted to the merits of Privatisation is being postponed again. I do not Government taxation policy. know who is behind it and who is in control but this is an issue which should be debated here in Ms Terry: I was happy to attend the opening the House, not only outside it. I gather the latest of new offices for the gay and lesbian equality development is that the Minister has told the network, GLEN, on Monday, and was happy to unions and particularly the management to sort see the Taoiseach there. I welcomed his positive out issues which should have been addressed comments, indicating support for legislation to months ago. provide for civil partnerships in the future. My What is happening behind closed doors is very only reservation is that it rings somewhat hollow important in this case. Our role is to express our in that we have had positive indications pre- views and make the Minister accountable to the 505 Order of 5 April 2006. Business 506

House for what is going on. At present there is have been involved and this is obviously a view no accountability in this very important area. shared by Mr. Donaldson. Along with the process This is going to be a very difficult State asset it is the big loser. Their difficulty is that it is not to sell if the Government continues making a this House they have to convince but the DUP. I complete mess of it. It is only seeking a mere take some hope from a statement by Sir Reg \400 million. Empey this morning stating that Northern Ireland politicians would have to find a means of An Cathaoirleach: Senator, we will not debate getting over these things so they were not it now. destabilised when such events occur. It gives me some hope that we could look for the primacy of Mr. Ross: I have one final question. In light of politics as our colleagues have advocated. the fact that the Government is only seeking a \ mere 400 million, which will not even buy two Ms Tuffy: I ask the Leader for an update on Boeing jets, should we not reconsider the the report on Seanad reform. A couple of years decision to privatise the airline? ago the Leader was personally associated with reports that the Seanad was to be reformed. It Mr. Ryan: Hear, hear. was stated at the time that the Minister, Deputy Cullen, was to oversee this reform and the Ms Feeney: Legislation might come to the Taoiseach was to be involved in some way. This House before the debate on pharmacies and was to be done in the lifetime of this Seanad but pharmacists sought by Senator Ryan. Last Thurs- the report has been left on the shelf for more than day at a meeting of the Oireachtas Joint Commit- a year since it was published. tee on Health and Children, the Ta´naiste stated Seanad reform should be implemented before that legislation was imminent and would be the next election in approximately a year. Pro- presented to the House before the summer. posals were made to broaden the franchise from Senator Ryan is correct in that for the first time that of graduates and that there should be an legislation on the industry will cover fitness to element of direct elections to the Seanad. This is practise. I am aware a loophole exists. One does not a democratic forum and if we have made recom- need to be a qualified pharmacist to open a phar- mendations then they should be implemented. macy but the law states that one must employ a We should not be sitting here in a few years’ time qualified person to manage and run — I hope I will not be—— 3 o’clock the unit. It must be borne in mind that not all pharmacists can afford to Ms O’Rourke: I agree with the Senator. open a pharmacy. We must ensure the baby is not thrown out with the bath water and qualified Ms Tuffy: ——talking again about the need for people are left unemployed. Seanad reform.

Mr. Coghlan: I am glad the two Governments Mr. Mooney: I join with the sentiments are not allowing themselves to be deflected by the expressed by my distinguished colleagues on both brutal and appalling murder of Mr. Donaldson by sides of the House regarding the evil killing of whoever was responsible. In common with every Mr. Donaldson. I fully agree with the sentiments other Member, I wish the Taoiseach and the Brit- expressed by Senator Maurice Hayes that the pri- ish Prime Minister well in their work tomorrow macy of politics needs to be reinforced, notwith- in helping to put the Assembly and Executive standing that this House can have very little influ- back on the road before long. ence over outside events. I extend my deepest The House will be aware that Commissioner sympathy to the family because yet again this is Dimas has decreed that body embalming fluids another family grieving as a result of the shadow be banned, which will make the viewing of bodies of the gunman whom I thought was long gone a thing of the past. I ask whether he is trying to from our island. sound a death knell for a treasured Irish custom A report appeared in the national newspapers which has been so much a part of our culture for in the past few days regarding disturbing alle- so long. There is ample evidence from psychol- gations made about immigration centres. The ogists to back up the view that it plays an Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform important part in bringing closure to the bereave- seems to have a heavy agenda in other areas of ment process. I ask the Leader to invite a Mini- policy but I ask the Leader to consider asking the ster to the House to discuss this matter. This Minister or somebody from the Department to measure is a grave error which the House come to the House to answer those allegations should resist. which are being investigated by the Irish Refu- gee Council. Dr. M. Hayes: Like Senators O´ Murchu´ , I would be a hypocrite if I did not highlight Mansergh and Coghlan, I too wish the Taoiseach these issues in light of the fact that I and several and Prime Minister, Mr. Blair, well. colleagues from all sides of the House have I accept the statement of the IRA leadership in attempted to alleviate the difficulties affecting this case. It would be entirely irrational for it to Irish nationals in the United States, who are also 507 Order of 5 April 2006. Business 508

[Mr. Mooney.] Mr. Leyden: Without the support of the House immigrants. We must look into the motes in our and the Fianna Fa´il parliamentary group, it would own eyes. If the allegations published in the not have happened. newspapers stand up, they are indefensible. It is Will the Leader consider scheduling the Com- unacceptable that those who have fled their coun- mittee and Final Stages of the Bill for after the tries for the best of reasons — to find a better Easter recess? The General Register Office has life — should be treated with contempt, that their transferred from the Department of Health and dignity has been compromised and that they are Children to the Department of Social and Family not given basic rights. I hope there will be an Affairs. The Minister of State, Deputy Brian opportunity to invite the Minister to the House Lenihan, has kindly agreed to take the Bill to explain the full facts in regard to what is hap- through both Houses and it will become law. pening in these immigration centres. I would like to clear the decks because I have another Bill in the offing, the defamation of the Mr. U. Burke: I support Senator Kitt’s call for dead Bill 2006, which I intend to bring forward as a review of the school transport system. Fewer a Private Members’ Bill. I discussed the matter at than 12 months ago, the House asked for a review my parliamentary party meeting this morning and so that the tragedy in Meath would not be got general agreement to bring it forward for repeated. A terrible tragedy took place in Clara, further discussion before bringing it to the House. County Offaly, yesterday. Our sympathy goes out to the family, the students and the community at Mr. Browne: Will Mr. Dunlop read it? large in Offaly. Mr. Leyden: The Bill will not be retrospective. A hidden factor that contributed to this tragic loss was the fact that all of the children on the An Cathaoirleach: Allow the Senator to speak bus had been refused school transport by the without interruption. Department of Education and Science. This is where the real tragedy lies. For almost 15 years Mr. Leyden: I congratulate the Leader on the we have ignored calls for a review of the catch- success of Athlone railway station in winning an ment areas. Today I received from a parent in overall award. County Galway a copy of a letter from Bus E´ ireann which states: “In keeping with Depart- Ms O’Rourke: It is the best station in Ireland. ment of Education and Science directives for school transport, whereby each pupil must have a An Cathaoirleach: Senator Leyden should not single seat, I regret to inform you that we are go down that road. We will soon be offering con- enable to give your child transport after Easter.” gratulations for everything. Order, please. This is one of 30 letters to one national school in Galway. It is envisaged that a further 20 pupils Mr. Leyden: I could be forgiven for that. will lose school transport from September. Will the Minister continue with the absolute Mr. Bannon: Coming from the same constitu- lack of proper regulation in the area of school ency as Senator Leyden, I was not aware that the transport? Children are being put in danger as a Leader was a director of the railway station in result of the total mess caused by the involvement Athlone. of the Department of Education and Science, on An Cathaoirleach: The Senator should stick to the one hand, and the Department of Transport the Order of Business. on the other, as well as independent carriers, with nobody having control other than through the Mr. Bannon: On the Order of Business, I sup- Department of Education and Science scheme. port the call for a debate on the transport system The matter needs urgent attention. and reiterate my request for one, which I made last week. The system is in chaos, of which we Mr. Leyden: I express my thanks to the Leader, have evidence this week. Not alone has Senator Senator O’Rourke, the Leader of the Opposition, Ulick Burke received letters but most Senators Senator Brian Hayes, and Senators O’Toole and and other Oireachtas Members have received Ryan for their compliments. similar letters from CIE on the transport issue. On another issue, I call for a debate on the An Cathaoirleach: The Senator should speak underfunding within the BMW region. I under- on the Order of Business. stand that only 57% of the funding allocated under the national development plan for the Mr. Leyden: I appreciate that. It was with region for the period 2000 to 2006 has been spent. regard to No. 9, the Registration of Wills Bill This is due to bureaucracy and red tape intro- 2005, that I was given the award, which highlights duced by the Government. There is a major the right we have, as legislators, to bring forward underspending of this funding in the BMW Bills agreed by the House. region. At the time of the mid-term review I called for a debate on this issue. Such funding was Mr. B. Hayes: Hear, hear. intended to promote growth and infrastructural 509 Order of 5 April 2006. Business 510 development in the region in terms of roads, that a motorcyclist who killed a lady in a recent transport, tourism and rural development, but all tragedy was more high on drugs than on alcohol. those projects in the BMW region are lagging Motorists who drive having taken drugs are a behind simliar projects in the rest of the country. major problem on our roads. It is time we tackled I want equality introduced in the development that problem in the same way as we tackled drink throughout the country. driving in the past. I am concerned that the penalty points system Ms O’Meara: I support the call for a debate on is turning into a revenue generating exercise the privatisation and sale of Aer Lingus. It is an rather than a preventative and road safety exer- urgent matter that needs to be debated as soon cise, which it was originally intended to be. as possible. I urge the Leader to arrange such a I agree with Senator Terry’s point in welcom- debate. ing the Taoiseach’s opening of the new offices for On another matter, which relates to Senator the gay and lesbian equality network, GLEN, Leyden’s proposed Bill on the defamation of the recently. I call for a debate on housing partic- dead, will the Leader advise us as to the stage of ularly for single people. The lack of such housing preparation of the Minister for Justice, Equality also affects gays and lesbians who are clearly and Law Reform in regard to a panoply of legis- being discriminated against. It is nearly imposs- lation on the press council, privacy and reform ible for single or separated people, or gays and of libel and defamation laws? We discussed these lesbians, to get local authority housing. As houses issues in this House in the past mainly due to the are currently allocated, they tend to go to families efforts of the Leader, but we are still awaiting the or women with children. We must initiate a hous- introduction of this important and significant ing scheme in every county and local authority legislation. It was to be published originally for single people, be they homosexual or het- before Christmas and we were told more recently erosexual. it would be published before Easter, which is fast approaching. Can the Leader indicate when that Mr. Cummins: Gun crime, particularly drug- legislation will be introduced? related gun crime, seems to be out of control in Will the Leader consider arranging a debate on the country. Last week we discussed the shootings issues related to health, particularly that of the on the M50, and over the weekend another young provision of acute services? A useful exchange man was shot in Clonmel. Nothing seems to get took place between Professor Drumm, the done on the issue. Security vans are rammed and Ta´naiste and Minister for Health and Children, vast amounts of money are taken, and it is esti- Deputy Harney, and members of the Joint Com- mated that less than 10% of the money taken in mittee on Health and Children last Thursday all these robberies over the past number of years when a number of issues were thrashed out. The has been recovered. outstanding issue is that of bed capacity. I would What is the Minister for Justice, Equality and like the Minister for Health and Children to come Law Reform doing about this? It would be more to the House to facilitate a discussion on a appropriate to give extra resources to the Garda number of issues, particularly those related to Sı´ocha´na rather than issue press statements or how hospitals are being managed. It is emerging sound bites on the issue. I ask the Minister to that not all hospitals have problems in that small come into this House and explain why the Garda hospitals in particular work well. It is important Sı´ocha´na is not being properly resourced. that we would be able to tease out the issues On another issue, Members have stated that emerging around the important matter of health they accept the statement that the IRA was not policy. involved in the killing of Mr. Denis Donaldson. I remind Members that there were similar denials Mr. Browne: I agree with what Senator with regard to the murders of Detective Garda O’Toole said about the new penalty point Jerry McCabe and Robert McCartney, and after offences introduced. There are two major omis- the Northern Bank robbery. Truth is certainly not sions in the 31 offences listed, one being the use the IRA’s greatest attribute. of mobile phones. A Bill covering this issue passed Second Stage in the Da´il but I got the Mr. B. Hayes: Hear, hear. impression that the Minister responsible will drag his heels on progressing it. That Bill should be Mr. Moylan: I support Senators Kitt, Burke brought forward to Committee and Remaining and Bannon in calling for a debate on school Stages and brought to this House. The Leader transport. I extend our sympathies to the White might indicate if there is a timescale as to when family and all concerned in a very tragic accident that Bill will be enacted. yesterday near Clara. We can speak of school We hear about drink driving all the time and transport and an inability to get it, but my infor- yet we have a massive drug problem. Some mation is that there is a secondary school in Clara motorists drive vehicles having taken class A but it is the choice of parents to hire a private bus drugs as well as, in some cases, medication in the to bring their children to Killina. We must have form of anti-depressants but nothing is being uniform standards for all school buses, irrespec- done to address that problem. It was discovered tive of whether they are hired privately or run by 511 Order of 5 April 2006. Business 512

[Mr. Moylan.] owned. I extend my sympathy to the family of the the State. A mechanical failure was the cause of young man killed in the accident. this incident, and these events can happen with- I agree with the points made by my colleague, out notice, unfortunately. Senator Cummins, on the subjects of crime and I wish to make a brief comment on penalty justice, with particular reference to the murder points. I have listened daily to people in this over the weekend in Clonmel, which was a dis- House calling on the relevant Minister to do turbing development. Attacks on vehicles trans- something about road safety. The Minister for porting cash have grown into a serious problem. Transport, as part of the Government, introduced The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law 31 new penalty point offences, but what has then Reform commented flippantly last year on a part- happened? The media, and many public rep- icular attack in Dublin. The drivers of the van in resentatives, have condemned the Minister for question were subjected to a harrowing ordeal as this action taken in the interest of road safety. I the van was robbed. The Minister would be better am wondering where these people are coming employed ensuring the safety of people going from. about their work than engaging in his usual mega- phone politics on such issues. Mr. McHugh: In welcoming last week’s debate on agriculture, it is important we keep it to the Ms O’Rourke: The Leader of the Opposition, front of our agenda. New Teagasc advice will be Senator Brian Hayes, mentioned the sad death, presented to the Department of the Envir- as all are, of Denis Donaldson. He likened his onment, Heritage and Local Government and the killing to that of Eamon Collins in the late 1990s. Department of Agriculture and Food, and both He suggested the Government be more circum- Ministers should examine it comprehensively and spect in its comments and pointed to tensions in adhere to the advice and guidance therein. the republican movement, arising from the On another matter raised here today, yesterday uncovering of its criminality and its attempted was an unfortunate dawn, primarily because of dissipation. He said there were people who still believed that intimidation and threats worked. the loss of the life of Mr. Denis Donaldson. It We do not yet know who committed the heinous was also an unfortunate dawn with regard to the murder of Mr. Donaldson so to ascribe it to any position in which people from Donegal found particular group or country would be wrong. One themselves. It is important to put into context can only imagine what an awful death he that although Donegal is a Border county, not all suffered. of it is in the Border region. Not all of the county Senator O’Toole referred to the 31 offences has suffered from the Troubles to the same extent attracting penalty points and argued they would as areas near the Border. Glenties won a Tidy not decrease road fatalities, because one third of Towns award and is strongly associated with tour- them are caused by drink. We should adopt the ism. It is a quiet and peaceful village with peace- Australian or Swiss model where a person found ful people. guilty of drinking and driving is banned from driving for life. We need to introduce drastic An Cathaoirleach: I do not believe the qualities measures to convince people they cannot drink of Glenties are relevant to the Order of Business. and drive. Senator Ryan called for a debate on the priv- Mr. McHugh: Yesterday the people of Church atisation of Aer Lingus and asked the Minister to Hill witnessed streams of cars coming from come to this House to explain the reasons behind Letterkenny Garda station. One commentator his decision. He also asked about pharmacies and pointed out to me that it was like “Hill Street Senator Feeney provided an answer, to the effect Blues” at one stage. This precedent has been set that, as the Ta´naiste apparently said, a Bill would in Donegal and the people there do not want it be published before the summer. There are two and will not stand for it. pharmacy Bills, and we had thought they would not be published until the autumn. As Senator Mr. J. Phelan: I join with colleagues in express- Ryan said, the last legislation was enacted in 1870 ing disgust at the murder of Mr. Donaldson in so hopefully there will be progress on that before County Donegal. Senator O´ Murchu´ said that the summer break. republicans had fully decommissioned but I do Senator O´ Murchu´ sent best wishes to the not see how this is so, in light of yesterday’s Taoiseach and said it was unhelpful for Dr. Pais- shooting. Clearly, the guns used in that incident ley and the DUP to sit on the fence. have not been decommissioned and nobody I agree with Senator Finucane who praised would doubt the involvement of people calling RTE for cancelling Patrick “Dutchy” Holland’s themselves, however loosely, “republicans”. appearance on “The Late Late Show”. One can Other Senators referred to the tragic accident only imagine how the audience would have yesterday in County Offaly. It is now time for reacted to his appearance and the very idea was action and for the installation, without further audacious, to say the least. delay, of seatbelts on every schoolbus in the I agree with Senator Kitt’s call for seatbelts on country, whether privately operated or publicly school transport. Senator Quinn raised the Forfa´s 513 Order of 5 April 2006. Business 514 report regarding our overdependency on oil. We started what I considered a good series of meet- have all received a copy, and I agree that it would ings with the Minister for the Environment, Heri- make a very useful debate, which we will have tage and Local Government, Deputy Roche. I after Easter. believe there had been two such meetings when Senator Mansergh spoke on what I agree was a debate in the House cut across the next one the squalid murder in Donegal, welcoming Sinn to be scheduled. It is now a matter of arranging Fe´in’s disavowal of any involvement and stressing another, but we are moving forward, albeit very the importance of persevering with the primacy slowly. This Chamber would benefit greatly from of politics. He also welcomed the good health of full and proper reform. the public finances and the conversion of a party Senator Mooney also mentioned the primacy to our taxation policies. of politics and expressed concern at disturbing I am pleased Senator Terry expressed her hap- allegations from the Irish Refugee Council piness at seeing the Taoiseach at the GLEN func- regarding immigration centres. I have been wor- tion. She wants me to ascertain whether civil part- ried about them for some time but could not find nerships legislation is to be introduced following an echo, so I am glad to hear the Senator raise the report to which she referred, publication of the issue. which appears to have moved to the autumn. She Senator Ulick Burke suggested a review of has published a very fine paper on the matter, school transport, something with which I agree. and I will answer her question in due course. We will try to have one immediately. Regarding Senator Lydon requested a debate on driving Killina, Senator Moylan was right to point out under the influence of drink. One may drink or that parents want children to attend the school of drive but not do the two together. their choice. Sometimes when I hear on RTE the On the question of the privatisation of Aer pronunciations of places I know of I have to Lingus we have seen a volte-face from Senator laugh. Parents wanted their children to attend Ross, from whose eyes the scales appear to have Killina, despite there being good second level dropped. He is not present, but I would say the schools nearby. That is their choice. same thing if he were. Clearly school transport cannot be used if one wishes one’s child to attend a school outside the An Cathaoirleach: It is not fair to refer to the relevant catchment area, but the Senator believes Senator’s absence. that such areas should be reviewed. They were drawn up in 1967, and no review has been carried Ms O’Rourke: It is not that but I wished merely out since. There is not a district in Ireland without to avoid people thinking I was talking about him some sort of dispute regarding catchment areas when he was not here. He asked whether we and where children should go. It was extremely should be selling Aer Lingus, a real change for sad that a young lad on his way to school was him. killed, with many others injured, and I support Senator Moylan’s comments. We should have a An Cathaoirleach: I asked the Senator not to good debate on school transport. refer to Senator Ross’s absence, but she has persisted. Senator Leyden thanked everyone for their good wishes. Committee and Remaining Stages Ms O’Rourke: I accept the Chair’s ruling. of his Registration of Wills Bill 2005 are sched- Senator Feeney said that according to the uled for the first week after we return from the Ta´naiste and Minister for Health and Children, Easter recess. The Senator is to introduce a new Deputy Harney, a pharmacy Bill would be intro- Bill to address defamation of the dead. This is the duced before the summer. The Taoiseach will be first time I have heard this announcement and I glad to hear that Senator Coghlan wished him welcome it. well. The Senator also discussed an EU Com- Senator Bannon called for a debate on school missioner who wished to forbid the use of transport last week and today called for a debate embalming fluid. I have not read about that and on the underfunding of the BMW region. Senator am uninformed. O’Meara asked for a debate on Aer Lingus and inquired what has happened to the defamation Mr. Coghlan: The Senator should talk to her legislation. The defamation Bill is expected to go local undertaker. to Cabinet next week, it is on the Government A list for publication. Perhaps Senator Leyden’s Bill Ms O’Rourke: It will be very sad if that can be knitted in with it. happens. Senator Maurice Hayes wished the Taoiseach Mr. Leyden: I will go to the Cabinet meeting. well and accepted the statement by the Sinn Fe´in leadership and also welcomed Reg Empey’s com- Ms O’Rourke: Senator O’Meara also called for ments. I am delighted to tell Senator Tuffy about a debate on health and hospital management. Seanad reform, which I want as much as she. Like Senator Browne asked about legislation on her, I feel that I may not be around to see it mobile phone use while driving. Fine Gael intro- implemented, but I want it to happen. We had duced a Bill dealing with that issue in the Da´il 515 European Council: 5 April 2006. Statements 516

[Ms O’Rourke.] ment, and I propose to report also on these dis- last week and it was accepted by the Govern- cussions. ment. Hopefully it will come through quickly. The meeting took place in an extremely posi- Senator Browne also mentioned drug driving tive atmosphere. It took important decisions, not and the penalty points system. I also agree with least as regards energy policy, and provided for a him that we often meet elderly people who find comprehensive review of the state of progress it difficult to secure local authority housing. with the Lisbon strategy. Progress has been made OPDs are a thing of the past. There was a time on a number of significant issues, including some when every council scheme included a few OPDs of particular importance to Ireland. The meeting but elderly people now find it difficult to get a followed the successful informal meeting of house. From the council’s point of view, a family Heads of State and Government at Hampton with children gets first call. Court in October last year, and the December Senator Cummins said that gun crime is out of European Council at which agreement was control and called for a debate on the matter. reached on the future financial framework for the Senator Moylan extended his sympathies to the enlarged European Union for the period from White family and mentioned penalty points. He is 2007-13. right, we asked what the Government was doing The European Council has clearly demon- about road safety and then we criticise it as soon strated once again the capacity of the European as it acts. There must be severe penalties for Union to function effectively in a manner that those who drink and drive. There was a terrible delivers tangible benefits in the interests of our accident in Athlone at the weekend as well. citizens. The new energy policy for Europe was Senator McHugh mentioned new information the central issue for this European Council and the Taoiseach has reported in detail on the dis- from Teagasc and said that we should keep our cussions and on the conclusions to the meeting. finger on the pulse of the agriculture debate. He The three main objectives underpinning the new also spoke about Glenties, a lovely place, where policy, namely, security of supply, ensuring the we all flock to the Patrick Magill summer school continuing competitiveness of Europe’s econom- every year. Senator John Paul Phelan also men- ies and promoting environmental sustainability, tioned Denis Donaldson, the tragedy in Offaly are of central importance to Ireland and the and crime in general, calling for a debate on the future success of our economy. subject. During the European Council’s discussions on energy, the Taoiseach explicitly rejected the Order of Business agreed to. nuclear option for Ireland. As the Taoiseach has made clear, the EU’s work on energy will not in European Council: Statements. any way affect our national policy of rejecting Minister of State at the Department of Foreign nuclear power generation in Ireland. The pro- Affairs (Mr. Treacy): Is ono´ ir dom bheith ar ais posed new energy policy fully recognises that arı´s i Seanad E´ ireann chun freastal ar an a´bhar decisions on the primary sources of energy and an-ta´bhachtach seo faoi eachtraı´ na tı´re seo san energy mix remain firmly the responsibility of the Aontas Eorpach. Ta´ me´ buı´ochach go bhfuil deis member states. The Government is strongly opposed to nuclear power and it is our resolute agam labhairt faoin Chomhairle Eorpach a bhı´ intention that no facilities for generating nuclear againn seachtain o´ shin. power will be constructed in Ireland. This is The Taoiseach represented Ireland at the already enshrined in our legislation. European Council in Brussels on 23 and 24 A number of EU countries share Ireland’s March 2006. He was accompanied by the Mini- opposition to nuclear power, while others are sters for Foreign Affairs and Finance, Deputies more favourably disposed towards nuclear gener- Dermot Ahern and Cowen. The conclusions of ation. Everyone accepts, however, that this choice the Council have been laid before the Houses of is one for each Government to make. In the dis- the Oireachtas. cussions at EU level we will, of course, also con- The Lisbon strategy, adopted by the European tinue to push for the highest possible standards Council in 2000, was reviewed at its mid-term for the operation of nuclear plants and the dis- point by the Heads of State and Government last posal of nuclear waste material. year. Following the work undertaken by Ireland Ireland has much to gain from the development during its Presidency in 2004, the strategy was of a European energy policy. The conclusions refocused, with a greater emphasis on growth and reflect our view that the development of regional jobs. This was the first opportunity since the mid- energy co-operation in the EU should pay part- term review of the strategy for EU leaders to icular attention to countries and regions largely assess progress on the broad economic and social isolated from the EU energy market. Ireland, agenda facing the European Union. In addition, along with the Baltic states, Cyprus and Malta is the European Council adopted comprehensive very much on the periphery of the EU energy conclusions on a planned new energy policy for market. Our small markets are not necessarily Europe. The Ministers for Foreign Affairs collec- attractive to major energy companies and we tively discussed the future of Europe and enlarge- therefore have difficulties in mobilising private 517 European Council: 5 April 2006. Statements 518 sector investment for energy. At the European missioner Reding, on 28 March last, announced Council, the Taoiseach addressed the importance that she planned to introduce a regulation to Ireland attaches to suitable provision for inter- eliminate all unjustified roaming charges in the connection, including in the context of the Euro- EU. We will continue to give priority to the ulti- pean Union’s state aid rules. mate elimination of these charges. We are, of course, only at the preliminary stage The conclusions also addressed two other in the evolution of a new energy policy and matters of particular importance to us. They Ireland has highlighted a number of important reflect our view that the EU’s state aid rules questions for consideration as the debate should encourage and facilitate a high level of develops, including the role of a possible Euro- investment in Europe and make Europe attract- pean energy regulator and the importance of ive for future inward investment. We must ensure renewable energy. We are pleased that the EU’s that the desire for a level playing field on state ambitious new work programme on energy is aids within Europe, which we fully endorse, does very much in line with the Government’s not undermine Europe’s capacity to continue to approach. The revised arrangements for taking attract high quality investment projects that will forward the Lisbon strategy provide for the prep- help underpin Europe’s future competitiveness. aration of three-year national reform prog- The European Council’s conclusions recognise rammes by member states and for their sub- this. mission to the European Commission. In Ireland’ The European Council recognised that the s case, our national reform programme, contain- internal market for services must be made fully ing our plans for implementing the Lisbon operational while preserving Europe’s social strategy, and prepared in consultation with the model. Ireland continues to endorse the need for social partners, was placed before the Houses of a balanced services directive which captures the the Oireachtas in October of last year. advantages of a more liberalised market in The European Council conclusions deal with services while protecting the rights and interests the broad range of Lisbon Agenda issues but of workers. We are studying closely the amended devote special attention to three particularly version of the draft directive which the European important areas, namely, investing in knowledge Commission presented yesterday. This is likely to and innovation; unlocking the business potential be the subject of intensive negotiations within the of small and medium sized enterprises; and European Council in the months ahead. increasing employment opportunities for priority The European Council also adopted a pact for groups such as young people, women, older gender equality to encourage action on closing workers, people with disabilities, legal migrants gender gaps in the labour market, promoting a and minorities. better work-life balance and better monitoring of The European Council agreed to work towards gender equality actions. The European Council new targets on reducing early school leaving and deplored the recent presidential election in boosting youth employment. In particular, the Belarus as fatally flawed. We welcome the fact European Council agreed that by 2010, every the EU has signalled its determination to impose unemployed young person should be offered a sanctions against those politically and administra- job, apprenticeship, additional training or other tively responsible for violations of international measure within no more than four months. A tar- electoral standards in Belarus. get of 85% was set for the completion of upper As I mentioned at the outset, Foreign Ministers secondary education by 22 year olds. In the case discussed the future of Europe and enlargement. of Ireland, the latest data show that with an These are two issues that generate intense politi- 86.1 % record, we already exceed the European cal interest and the Presidency’s aim was to Council’s target and are well above the EU aver- initiate a broad debate. This discussion marked age which currently stands at 77.3 %. the beginning of a process that will continue for The European Council also adopted a target the remaining months of the Austrian Presidency designed to reduce the time for setting up a busi- as EU Foreign Ministers prepare a review of the ness. The idea is that by the end of 2007, it should current period of reflection which is to be put be possible to do so within one week anywhere before the Heads of State and Government when in the European Union. At present, it takes only they next meet in June. three days to set up a business in Ireland. Inevitably, member states hold divergent views In order to contribute to Europe’s competi- on these issues. A number, for example, consider tiveness and also to bring Europe closer to our that the European constitution cannot be citizens, the Taoiseach suggested that the EU implemented now. Even among this group, should look at the possibility of reducing or elimi- however, there are those which want to see some nating mobile phone roaming charges for people or all of its contents implemented on a piecemeal travelling within the EU. This proposal draws on basis. Others, particularly the 14 countries which the progress already made on this issue on a have already ratified the European constitution, North-South basis and between Ireland and consider that it represents the optimum frame- Britain. The Presidency welcomed this suggestion work for creating a more efficient and effective and it is now referred to in the European Council Union. We subscribe strongly to this latter view. conclusions. Since the European Council, Com- We recognise that progress with the ratification 519 European Council: 5 April 2006. Statements 520

[Mr. Treacy.] process that extends peace, prosperity and of the European constitution is not possible for enhanced human rights across our continent. the time being but we hope that circumstances It is clear the European Union has work to do will change during 2007 and that we may then be to prepare itself for any future enlargement. It able to resume the ratification process in Ireland. is also evident that the public has considerable Our view that more time is required before we concerns about future enlargement and that these can revisit the issues impeding the ratification of need to be responded to by governments. For the European constitution was reinforced by the now, however, the priority must be to make a suc- Foreign Ministers’ discussions at the European cess of the enlarged European Union. Council. We are not saying, however, that At the recent ministerial discussion, the Mini- nothing can be done before 2007. The period of ster for Foreign Affairs made the point that we reflection which has been under way since June need to offer EU citizens a clear strategy for 2005 has been a valuable opportunity for Euro- future enlargement which is based on objective peans to reflect on the kind of Union they want conditions and realistic commitments. We will for the future. continue to take a constructive and pragmatic In Ireland, the work of our National Forum on approach to enlargement while giving due weight Europe has played a key role in helping refine to the need for future candidate countries to be our thinking on the future of Europe. I pay trib- able to meet the obligations of membership. We ute to Senator Maurice Hayes and his manage- must also attend to the European Union’s ment team for the outstanding work done. I also absorption capacity. pay tribute to members of the forum for their This discussion was a useful first step for For- individual and collective contributions to its eign Ministers in an area of work which will have work. On the day when the European Council a high priority during the next three months. The convened in Brussels, the European forum here Presidency has now proposed an additional meet- was hearing submissions from individuals and ing of Foreign Ministers likely to be held in late organisations throughout Ireland. If we are to May. This will result in a report to the June Euro- succeed in engaging Europeans more actively in pean Council reviewing the period of reflection EU affairs, this is exactly the type of initiative and determining what further steps are required which needs to be pursued across the European to facilitate the completion of the ratification pro- Union on an ongoing basis. cess for the EU constitution. During the Foreign Minister’s dinner, the Mini- As we see it, this is a time for Europe to focus ster for Foreign Affairs also raised the recent on tangible achievements instead of agonising ETA ceasefire and complimented the Spanish over institutional complexities which are of little Government on this breakthrough. He was one interest to most people. In his intervention, the of a number of Ministers who exhorted the Presi- Minister for Foreign Affairs stressed the need to dency to issue a statement expressing the EU’s build on the EU’s genuine successes. These range concerns about the continued operation of Guan- from the creation of the euro at one end of the tanamo Bay and urging its closure. scale to the work now being undertaken on roam- The spring European Council was a construc- ing charges or on the development of a harmon- tive meeting that focused on the real needs of our ised driving licence. These are some of the areas citizens. As reflected in the meeting’s con- where the EU can prove its worth and win clusions, Heads of State and Government have increased levels of public approval. advanced the Lisbon Agenda for growth and As regards enlargement, the accession of jobs. New ground has been broken in the criti- Bulgaria and Romania will mark the completion cally important area of energy policy. Discussion of the fifth round of enlargement, increasing the among Foreign Ministers will help prepare the membership of the European Union from 15 to way for important decisions both on the Euro- 27 countries. Negotiations have begun with pean constitution and the future of Europe. Croatia and Turkey and the European Union has Overall, this was a very satisfactory European also renewed its commitment to the Thessalonika Council which dealt constructively with a range Agenda, which foresees a European perspective of key economic issues vital to the future well- for the countries of the western Balkans. Ireland being of Ireland and of the European Union as a has always been supportive of enlargement, not whole. The Austrian Presidency is to be com- least perhaps because we were among its first mended on the success of the spring European beneficiaries when we joined back in 1973. There Council. I trust that this puts the conclusions of can be no doubt that the prospect of membership the recent European Council in context for the exerts a strong and stabilising force on potential Members of this House. members. The recent accession of the countries of central Mr. B. Hayes: I thank the Minister of State for and eastern Europe was a momentous achieve- his statement, which sets out the main content of ment and it would be unfair and unwise to close the European Council meeting. As I stated in the door to other European nations which aspire another forum, it is very important that there be to membership of the EU. It is in all our interests debate in plenary form in both Houses when a to continue a carefully managed enlargement Council meeting occurs. It does not always follow 521 European Council: 5 April 2006. Statements 522 that we have an opportunity to contribute to diction must be addressed sooner rather than such debate. later. Totally different sets of standards apply in My abiding memory of the most recent Council this area of key policy, to which we have all meeting was the walk-out by President Chirac signed up as a result of our support for and imple- when one of the Commissioners decided to speak mentation of the euro. in English rather than French. I regarded this as The European Union has particular problems a rather petulant response by the leader of one associated with unemployment. The demon- of the biggest and most influential countries in strations in France over the past week or so high- the European Union. I often wonder whether light the great problem of youth unemployment, someone such as Franc¸ois Mitterrand would have which also exists in Poland. This must be responded in such a way. addressed and this is why I refer to a two-speed The Minister of State’s assessment was upbeat Europe. One side is doing very well and ensuring but I do not share his optimism. I will explain high levels of employment and growth while the why this is the case. There is currently profound other is languishing, thus having an effect on the instability in the European Union and it lacks the Union. moral and political leadership to steer us through President Barroso, in the course of his contri- this very difficult time. That there is a period of bution at the meeting of the Council, summed up reflection, which started in 2005 and will not end the matter very well by saying we cannot be open until at least 2007, demonstrates the dilemma at for business with the rest of the world and closed the heart of the European project. This emanates to each other. Commissioner McCreevy also from the rejection of the constitution in both struck the right note when he warned about the France and Holland. futility of building political “Maginot lines” Europe is being blamed for every ill that befalls around a member state’s economy. We have seen nation states. Last weekend, on 1 April, a alleged examples of this. The current dispute between joke on the part of the national broadcaster indi- Italy and France in respect of the purchasing of cated that the Minister for Transport had just an international energy company is an example signed automatically a new law such that all driv- of the new economic nationalism that has taken ers would have to drive on the right hand side of hold owing to a lack of political leadership on the the road. This is an example of the narrow- part of some EU countries. The dispute between minded way in which Europe is constantly the French and Italians demonstrates the exist- blamed for all the ills that befall this society. ence of a neonationalist economic identity which When things go right for the Government, it is must be recognised. Unfortunately, nobody at regarded as the achievement of the Government Council level or at the Commission is sounding and when things go wrong, Brussels is blamed. out the matter or saying we need to do more to The lack of political and moral leadership in ensure harmonisation. the European project must be addressed. I say I very much welcome the fact that, as a result this in the knowledge that the Government wants of the Council meeting, we are seeing the start of to move forward with the ratification of the con- a new single energy market in the European stitution. It ensured that a great amount of politi- Union. The countries of the Union, Ireland in cal capital was invested in the convention and the particular, are dependent on energy resources final text of the constitution, of which we had a from outside the Union. Some 91% of Ireland’s part in negotiating so successfully. However, energy is imported and it is very dependent on oil while we must recognise the difficulties that exist and gas. We know these fuels will not be available at the heart of the European project, we should indefinitely. We recently noted the dispute not over-exaggerate them. between the Russian Federation and the Ukraine, There is currently a two-speed Europe — a as referred to by the Minister of State. It demon- western Europe and an eastern Europe and they strated our dependence on a supply of oil and gas are both very different. Last year a constituent of which, if turned off tomorrow, would greatly dent mine employed seven people in the area of web Irish economic performance. It is therefore right design in his communications business but all and proper, not just in terms of the North-South these jobs are now outsourced to Latvia and interconnector, which we all support, that we Poland. They were lost in Ireland because the have a single energy market in the European constituent can run his business at a tenth of the Union. I commend the Council on moving in this cost by employing people from those countries. direction. If we are serious about ensuring future This is an example of the two-speed Europe. energy supply, we must address the issue of The Stability and Growth Pact serves as renewable energy and biofuels and move rapidly another example in that one law applies to the to become less dependent on oil and gas. I ask big countries and another to Ireland and other the Government to further the agenda of creating small countries. We have seen too many examples a new energy market in the Union because it will of the Maastricht guidelines being broken rou- be crucial to the continuing growth of our tinely by the Italians, French and Germans while economy. small countries such as Ireland were rapped I welcome the announcement on ETA by the across the knuckles for adhering to the guidelines Council. The Spanish Government is to be con- and the Stability and Growth Pact. This contra- gratulated on its work in this area. The announce- 523 European Council: 5 April 2006. Statements 524

[Mr. B. Hayes.] the Council discussed the Commission’s mid-term ment by ETA of an unconditional, permanent review of the Lisbon strategy for economic, social ceasefire was considerably more advantageous and environmental renewal. More focus on than the announcement of the initial ceasefire by growth and employment, simplification and the IRA over ten years ago, and it is to be con- national ownership via national action plans were gratulated on this. Any measures the European the key elements to relaunch the Lisbon reforms Union can introduce in the Basque region to sup- agenda. port and sustain the ceasefire, and the peace pro- The most recent meeting has concentrated on cess I hope will flow from it, should be supported. addressing the progress made on a broad range One of the positive results of the Council meet- of Lisbon Agenda related matters. I welcome that ing concerns roaming charges. I commend the it also agreed to focus on three particular issues, Government on raising this issue. We need to namely, investing in knowledge and innovation, focus on practical measures that the unlocking the business potential of small and 4 o’clock ordinary citizens in Europe can see medium-sized enterprises and increasing employ- are being implemented by their poli- ment opportunities for priority groups. The ticians. If we can abolish roaming charges, as Taoiseach also referred to three national prog- referred to by the telecommunications Com- rammes running in this country, namely, Science missioner last week, we will be taking a very prac- Foundation Ireland’s centres for science, engin- tical, consumer-friendly step regarding an issue eering and technology programme, the Skillnets that many European citizens rightly highlight. I training networks programme, the one-step-up encourage the Government to continue its efforts programme and the wage subsidy scheme. to achieve this. In particular, the Skillnets programme offers a These are the kinds of practical issues on which real template for other EU countries to follow. we must concentrate because we do not have any Skillnets provides knowledge, experience and plan B. According to my humble judgment, we do not have political leadership of sufficient most importantly funding for organisations and weight in the European Union, nor do we have companies to train their staff effectively for the the Mitterrands or Kohls to bring us out of the benefit of the staff, the business, the sector and morass we are in. I wish we did. ultimately the domestic economy. Skillnets offers an alternative to off-the-shelf training products Ms Ormonde: l welcome the Minister of State, by allowing companies to design and implement Deputy Tracey, to the House for this debate. This training programmes that are 100% relevant and is exactly the kind of discussion the Seanad match their exact requirements. The approach to should be having and as the Seanad develops in training is unique and innovative allowing com- the years to come it is important that we are given panies with similar training needs come together further opportunity to engage in debate on EU to form networks. Obviously, this approach could matters. Since I became spokesperson on Euro- be repeated throughout the EU and it is to the pean affairs, I have been trying to take the lead Government’s credit that this programme was on having such debates in this House in order to developed on our shores. reach out to the citizens and inform them as to We all know why it is important to invest in what is going on and the potential of the Euro- knowledge and innovation. This country’s econ- pean institutions. These debates will become omy is perhaps the best placed of all EU coun- more important in the future and while the Da´il tries to realise this. In this global economic age, may not have adequate time to debate such the EU will not be able to compete in wage costs matters, the Seanad can certainly fill that role. with developing economies in other parts of the While the recent European Council meeting world. However, we can offer more developed may not have attracted the same level of head- skills that would not be available elsewhere. To lines that some previous meetings have enjoyed, achieve this step we must continue to invest in for the long-term future of Europe it was no less the knowledge-based economy and to ensure that significant. By putting the emphasis on energy our skill set is at the upper end of the policy and the further development of the Lisbon marketplace. Agenda, the European Council emphasised the It is also important that we offer greater oppor- importance it puts on the mid-term growth of the tunities for small and medium-sized enterprises. EU and having a policy vision that is not just con- While big businesses around the globe move to cerned with the here and now. ever-greater levels of consolidation, these busi- As we know the Lisbon Agenda was agreed in nesses are dependent on smaller enterprises to March 2000, when the EU Heads of State and service them. We should also remember that Government agreed to make the EU “the most while the larger companies provide significant competitive and dynamic knowledge-driven econ- levels of employment, the cumulative numbers omy by 2010”. Although some progress was made offered by small and medium-sized businesses are on innovating Europe’s economy, there has been even more impressive and arguably more growing concern that the reform process is not important. The more businesses of this size any going fast enough and that the ambitious targets economy has, the less fear it has of the potentially will not be reached. On 22 and 23 March 2005, disastrous effects of a company shutting down. 525 European Council: 5 April 2006. Statements 526

We also need to be able to innovate in our is preparing a Green Paper on energy policy, entrepreneurial undertakings. All big businesses which I hope will reflect diversification, intercon- originally started off small and grew bigger. If we nection and the markets that are available for us want such businesses to develop then the climate to give security of supply. I welcome the dis- must encourage them to get started in the first cussion on the future of our energy policy leading place, create a more favourable environment, to protecting our energy supply so that we are not simplify administration procedures and have easy dictated to by what other EU member states do. to apply EU rules. With these issues in mind I I congratulate the Taoiseach and the other was happy to see the Council agree a target of members of the European Council for addressing reducing the time needed to start a business to the situation in Belarus during last month’s meet- only one week anywhere in the EU. This target ing. It is clear that the recent presidential election was even more satisfying when one considers that in Belarus was not fair and democratic. We must in this country it only takes three days to get a do all we can to ensure that the values of democ- business started. racy continue to flourish throughout the world. In his speech, the Minister of State referred to I am delighted to have an opportunity to speak young people. Increasing employment gives on European Union issues. I compliment the opportunities for priority groups, young people, work of the National Forum on Europe in keep- women, older people, people with disabilities, ing such issues in the minds of Irish citizens. legal migrants and minority groups. The Euro- Many submissions are being made at EU level at pean Council invites member states to strengthen present, for example in respect of the harmonis- education and training programmes, our com- ation of qualifications and driving licences. The munication and media as well as the creative services directive will facilitate the movement of industry to play an important part in promoting people, provide for liberal markets within entrepreneurship among young people. member states and assist the establishment of Increasing investment in human capital businesses. We should give such issues as much through better educational training, better organ- publicity as we can so the citizens of Europe can isation at work, better quality of working life and understand what is happening. It is important updating working qualifications will also boost that such matters are debated in this House, just labour productivity. The objective is to reach the as they are in the National Forum on Europe, employment targets by 2010. The European under the chairmanship of Senator Maurice Council calls on member states to upskill and Hayes, and in the Joint Committee on European have life-long programmes to help people to find Affairs. employment, to help those on low pay and on the The Minister of State, Deputy Treacy, is able labour margins, and to intensify efforts to reduce to project such issues further for us. We have to the early school leaver numbers and bring them reflect the real needs of the citizens in debates back into the workforce. The objective of the like the great debate we are having today. This is Council is that the unemployed will be offered a the first time I have learned about the work that job, apprenticeship or training within four months was done at the recent meeting of the European rather than six months by 2010. However, Ireland Council. I did not know anything about it until is already on course as it exceeds that target and this debate started, but now I know a great deal is already above the EU average. To assist older about what is going on in Europe. I would like people, the EU underlines active ageing stra- to be able to speak further about such matters, tegies through longer working life, a gradual including the issue of how best we can connect retirement approach and part-time work. with our citizens. I was pleased to hear the Taoiseach calling on the EU to investigate mobile phone roaming Mr. Quinn: I welcome the Minister of State, charges for those travelling abroad. Deputy Treacy, and thank him for expressing in A theme of the Council was to discuss energy his speech his interest in all the matters which policy for Europe. As was shown during the win- were covered at the recent meeting of the Euro- ter stand-off between Russia and the Ukraine pean Council. over gas prices and supply, energy will become a I am in danger of leading people to believe that bigger issue in the years to come. Obviously, the I have a thing going for the US Secretary of EU needs to examine the security of supply and Labor, Ms Elaine Chao, because I have men- the best way to achieve this is through diversifi- tioned her twice in recent weeks. When I met her cation. We need to have multiple sources of sup- a couple of weeks ago, I was very impressed to ply, both from within the borders of the EU and hear her saying that as a member of the US outside so that if the global political outlook were Cabinet, it was her duty, task and objective to to change suddenly we would not be danger of establish an environment in which private losing our energy supply. enterprises can create jobs. I agree entirely with The Council also discussed promoting environ- Ms Chao’s belief, which is particularly interesting mental sustainability, which obviously refers to in light of the speech that has just been made by the issue of renewable energy. I could speak Senator Ormonde and in the context of the further on this matter. I know the Department of Lisbon Agenda, that governments are not respon- Communications, Marine and Natural Resources sible for creating jobs but for making sure that 527 European Council: 5 April 2006. Statements 528

[Mr. Quinn.] That is probably the most benign scenario that is private enterprises can do so. There is a danger available to us. Many other scenarios, which are that Europe does not always recognise those roles much scarier, are doing the rounds. This is not and, as a consequence, job creation has not just an Irish problem — it is found throughout always happened. In that context, the outcome of the world — but Ireland is particularly vulnerable the recent meeting of the European Council, as to an oil shock, unfortunately. I remember how reported to the House by the Minister of State, is ill-prepared the western world was for the oil to be welcomed. shock of 1973. I cannot say whether a future I believe that jobs can be created in the com- shock will be caused by high prices or oil petitive marketplace that currently exists, in shortages, although an oil shortage may lead to which other countries are trying to create similar high prices. The report states: sorts of jobs. If that is to happen, we have to Taking into account the Irish economy’s make Ireland more attractive to the relevant relative dependence on imported oil and the companies. As Senator Ormonde has said, small relative share of oil in total Irish energy con- and medium-sized enterprises will create such sumption, Ireland is among the most sensitive jobs. I am not sure that I accept Senator to rising oil prices and therefore among the Ormonde’s assertion that one can open a new most vulnerable to a peak oil scenario. company in Ireland in three days. When I spoke recently to a man who employs people through- The vulnerability of Ireland’s position is summed out the world, he told me there is more red tape up by two key facts. I did not realise I would have involved in starting a company in Ireland than he an opportunity to speak about this matter today. thought there would be. The authorities in The Forfa´s report states: Britain have identified the reduction of red tape Ireland consumed nine million tonnes of oil as one of their most important tasks. in 2004, an amount that has doubled since 1990. I understand that the European Union’s energy In 2002, Ireland ranked 3rd highest among the policy was the central issue to be addressed at last EU-25 countries in terms of oil consumed per month’s meeting of the European Council. I have capita. Electricity generation and transpor- not seen anything in the statements which tation are the two main factors for Ireland’s emerged from the council that equals, in immedi- high oil dependence. Ireland has relied con- acy or urgency, the report that was published by siderably more on oil for electricity generation Forfa´s yesterday. According to the report, A than most other EU countries and, as of 2002, Baseline Assessment of Ireland’s Oil Depen- had the 6th most oil dependent electricity gen- dence — Key Policy Considerations: eration system of the EU-25 countries. The We in Ireland are more dependent on amount of oil used for transportation in Ireland imported oil for our [transport and] energy tripled between 1972 and 2002, leaving Ireland requirements than almost every other Euro- consuming at least 50 per cent more per capita pean country and it will take up to 10 years to than the average of the EU-25 by the end of significantly reduce this dependence. There- the period. fore, it is essential that we now begin to pre- I agree with the statement in the report that pare for such a challenge. Ireland urgently needs “a national strategy” to The Minister of State mentioned that the ques- prepare for the challenges which will arise in this tion of EU energy policy featured prominently in regard. I would like to add my voice to that of the debate at the Council meeting. This issue is Forfa´s in calling for the development of such a of great importance in Ireland, not only because strategy. we are so dependent on oil but also because it The Minister of State has informed the House will become more risky to depend on oil as time that the European Council has recognised the goes by, given the uncertainty about the con- importance of energy. We need to identify how tinued supply of oil. The report mentions that urgent a problem it is for Ireland. Any strategy there is “growing evidence to suggest that the era that is developed will have to focus on two key of a plentiful supply of conventional oil is elements, the first of which is the much greater approaching an end”. It was interesting to hear use of renewable sources of energy for electricity a man from the United States, who has written generation. Nature has blessed Ireland with extensively about this matter, being interviewed ample wind and wave reserves, both of which we on this morning’s “Today with Pat Kenny”. The seem largely determined to ignore, for some Forfa´s report states: reason. Ireland could become a world leader in the generation of electricity from wind and wave Various experts ..... have developed projec- energy, just as it was once a world leader in the tions for when peak oil will occur. While there generation of electricity from turf and peat. It is a wide variation of estimates about the likely seems to me that it is utter madness that we are timing, most expert commentators believe that putting ourselves in hock to an expensive and 10-15 years from now, conventional oil supply increasingly scarce resource like oil when a will no longer be capable of satisfying world cheaper resource is going to waste in the air demand at current prices. around us and in the seas around our shores. On 529 European Council: 5 April 2006. Statements 530 a clear day, I can see the seven huge windmills respect; it is good that we review the Council on off the coast of County Wicklow from where I each occasion it takes place and perhaps even at live in Howth. I know we have made similar times anticipate what will take place. I want to efforts in other parts of the country, but we have acknowledge, too, the occasions when the Mini- a long way to go. ster of State attends meetings of the Joint Com- The second key element of any energy strategy mittee on European Affairs and gives us the should be the development of fuels other than benefit of his wisdom in advance of General petrol to run our vehicles. As an agricultural Affairs and External Relations Council, GAERC, country with an agricultural tradition, nature is meetings. I also want to acknowledge the work of working in our favour in this respect. We now the Taoiseach as well as that of Deputy Dermot have a largely unemployed agricultural com- Ahern, the Minister for Foreign Affairs and munity, for one reason or another. As Senator Deputy Cowen, the Minister for Finance, at the Dardis has mentioned on many occasions, the Council meeting. Of course the Austrian Presi- technology exists to fuel cars from crops grown dency should be congratulated on the success of on an agricultural basis. One such crop is the the event. same sugar beet that we have been wringing our It is not much of a surprise that the bulk of hands about to such a great extent lately. I have the contribution refers to energy policy. This is a spoken previously about the need for us to grow policy area that finds itself in an unusually high our own petrol. There is no reason in the world position on the political agenda at present. I why we should not do so as long as we develop noticed that Senator Quinn spent much of his the technology, give the commitment and show time speaking about it. Before turning to energy, the determination that is needed. however, I intend to focus on the other main top- It seems clear to me from the deliberations of ics discussed at the March Council meeting — the European Council that the EU will not solve economic and social outcomes; energy; the EU this problem for us. It is up to us to come up constitution; and youth employment. I was with the right conclusions and to take the actions interested to read of the Council’s meeting with which are appropriate for the future of our coun- the President of the European Central Bank, the try. Of the many economic trends which face us European Employers and Trade Union Confed- in the coming decades, this is definitely one we erations and the President of the EU Parliament. can do something about with our own efforts. It At a time when social partnership is being scruti- would be tragic if we were to fail to do so, nised again at national level in Ireland, it is through a lack of vision or a lack of political will. notable that EU umbrella groups agree that a I met a Japanese man a couple of years ago strong growth and jobs partnership is needed to and got to know him quite well. I asked him how deal with the many varied economic and social he had been so successful when so many others challenges that face the Union. I fear, however, had not. He said: “Whether you believe you can, that Mr. Trichet’s singling out of Ireland and or whether you believe you cannot, you are Denmark, as two countries delivering very similar right.” He said if he went into a tennis game and economic and social success stories, might over- believed he did not have a chance against his shadow his other point that there is no one-size- opponent, he was right and did not have a chance. fits-all solution to Europe’s economic challenges. However, if he believed he could win, then he His view that different economic and social was right as well. models can achieve similar success is crucial. The partnership approach has served this country Mr. Dardis: It is like Leinster. well, as we all know. Much of the basis of this success has been partnership’s ability to adapt Mr. Quinn: Perhaps it is like Leinster and flexibly to changing conditions. However, in the Munster. That is exactly it. same way a one-size-fits-all approach is inap- That attitude is what we need here. We need propriate for a group of states facing varying chal- determination, the will to succeed and the confi- lenges, the same partnership approach that dence that we can do it. We have the waves, the served Ireland well in the past might not be the wind, solar energy to a certain extent, and we most appropriate model now for other countries. have the ability in our agricultural community to If it were, it would not need to be renegotiated produce our own energy. Let us show commit- here. We must not pursue social partnership at ment, get our heads down and believe this is any cost. For example, the notion of core work, something we can achieve. as currently defined, and outsourcing — about which Senator Brian Hayes spoke — could indi- Mr. Dardis: I welcome the Minister of State, cate that what went before might not be the right Deputy Treacy, to the House. I thank him for the approach in certain sectors now. comprehensive synopsis he has given of the EU Moving to the issue that dominated the Council Council meeting in Brussels. That meeting ranged proceedings, namely, energy policy, it is no sur- over quite a number of subjects, and I agree with prise that the challenges identified are those Senator Ormonde that it is important for the addressed in my party’s recent policy discussion House to debate these matters in plenary session. document. Agreement may exist on the issues of There is a positive role for the Seanad in that security of supply, ensuring the continuing com- 531 European Council: 5 April 2006. Statements 532

[Mr. Dardis.] policy decisions should and will remain at petitiveness of Europe’s economies and promot- national level. However, where the implications ing environmental sustainability. However, the of those policies can seriously affect the well- question is how best to proceed and that is far being of another country, exceptions must be from being settled. On a general level I welcome made. We have had some concrete examples of the Council’s acceptance that the energy issue is that in the recent past, regarding Russia and its of central importance to Ireland and the future neighbours. Sellafield generates waste and radio- success of our economy. Ireland should partici- active discharges into the Irish Sea. The proposed pate fully in this debate at EU level, and our con- sale of the British Nuclear Fuels Group, including tribution on the way forward should reflect not Sellafield, does not change the fact that the UK just any national Green Paper, but as much Government is both responsible and accountable innovative thinking and ideas as emerge. for the safe operation of that facility. Neither the Deputy Fiona O’Malley’s discussion paper, proposed privatisation nor a new EU energy plan published last month, deals with the energy issues should alter this fact. discussed in terms of an action plan at EU The problematic areas in all of the discussions Council level. The Progressive Democrats pro- at the Council focused on the constitution, pose a seven point action plan designed to enlargement and the Lisbon Agenda. I was develop Ireland’s renewable energy supplies; pro- interested in the Council’s view that since the tect the environment — thus fulfilling our obli- French and Dutch referendums on the European gations under the Kyoto Agreement; and secure constitution, there has been a particular focus on our fuel supplies and minimise the overall cost of showing citizens that Europe works on their energy to the economy, thus maintaining behalf. We have mentioned the work of the Ireland’s competitiveness. The plan requires that National Forum on Europe under the chairman- we promote the development of renewable ship of Senator Maurice Hayes, and that is very energy for power generation; the use of renew- valuable. However, we are going to have to be able energy for space and water heating; the pro- even more proactive. This is essential as regards duction and utilisation of biofuels for transport; important issues such as the roaming charges. In energy conservation; fossil fuel exploration, pro- other words if citizens can appreciate that the duction and supply security; the creation of new Union is putting money in their pockets rather market structures and improved regulation; and than taking it out, a different attitude towards research and development into energy technologies of particular importance to Ireland. Europe will rapidly emerge, and it will also bring the EU much closer to them than anything we I urge everyone to read the paper Deputy might do by way of political campaigning or Fiona O’Malley has produced and engage in this discussion process. Energy policy tops the inter- explanation. Deputy Roche, when he was Mini- national agenda for reasons pertinent to all of us. ster of State with responsibility for European The analogy has been used that Ireland is the last matters, did a good deal of work in this respect stop on a very long oil pipeline and that our in terms of trying to bring citizens closer to dependency on imported sources cannot continue Europe and vice versa. I do not want to denigrate as it is. That has been underlined in much of the that work. It is important, and I know that the discussion today. I was in Norway last week and Minister of State, Deputy Treacy, is an advocate it was quite notable that in a country that has its of it as well. However, there is more to it than own supply of oil, serious consideration is being that, in terms of trying to convince a sceptical given to how it is to move forward in the know- electorate of the need for a constitution and for ledge that production has peaked. They are look- Europe to go forward as it must. ing to the future, already, in a country that has In addition to the relaunching of the Lisbon been in a position to export oil. Agenda, and a renewed emphasis on jobs and On nuclear power generation, I am satisfied growth, I wonder what specific moves are under that the Council’s conclusions make it clear that way in Ireland to demonstrate that EU action is work on energy at EU level will not affect our indeed rooted in the national, civil and social national policy to reject this solution in this coun- partnership process. The Lisbon Agenda has try. I am encouraged by what the Minister of been characterised by a great deal of talk both State, Deputy Treacy, had to say about Ireland’s here and at European level. I am not aware of position on this matter. Notwithstanding the any tangible outcomes to which one can point at advice of Forfa´s, yesterday, the Progressive this stage to confirm that it has been a success Democrats do not believe that nuclear generation and that the Lisbon Agenda is working. is the correct option for Ireland, and that is the Finally, I want to talk about the Council’s dis- Government’s position as well. I am less satisfied cussion of youth unemployment. All will, of with the linking of EU energy policy recognition course, welcome the Council’s agreement to work that decisions on sources of energy remain firmly to meet new targets on reducing early school with the member states and on the required stan- leaving, efforts to ensure that unemployed young dards for the operation of nuclear plants and the people are brought back into the labour force as disposal of nuclear waste material. Those two quickly as possible, and the agreement that by aspects appear to be somewhat in conflict. Some 2010 every unemployed young person should be 533 European Council: 5 April 2006. Statements 534 offered a job within no more than four rather our country and its impact on our lives, that we than six months. do not have the level of engagement, interest and The issue of youth employment brings me back knowledge we would wish to have. to my first point, that the one-size-fits-all solution The Minister of State may be aware of a pro- does not apply in the context of the Union’s posal, currently being considered, to have a social and economic challenges. The House will Europe day in the Oireachtas. In the Oireachtas be aware that in France there have been huge Joint Committee on European Affairs we are dis- demonstrations — some violent — against a new cussing 10 May as a possible date. I expect the labour law for the under-26s which will make it Seanad will play a very full role in it and that we easier for businesses to hire and fire young will put a mechanism in place in the Chamber to people. The legislation was introduced to get ensure we will grab the attention of the public. I more people in France into work in the face of hope we will use the day well and that it will high unemployment rates and a stagnant labour become an annual event by which we try to market. I read an article in the International Her- impress on the Irish people the importance of the ald Tribune last week about a French entrepren- European project to our well-being from a social eur who had located in Ireland because of the and economic point of view. I hope the Minister ease of establishing a company where there was of State’s Government colleagues try to ensure far less restrictive regulation and red tape than that it will be a day where the work of Europe elsewhere. We talked about the three-day rule and its impact in Ireland and vice versa will be which is good to hear about. He is very pleased showcased to the maximum degree. On that day he came to Ireland, as a result of which people in we will focus on the issues which, in effect, stem his home country have lost out in terms of jobs from the recent Council meeting. and we have gained. It is opportune that the energy debate took The low tax and pro-enterprise model centre stage at the European Council. All poli- espoused by my party and the Government has ticians are aware of the importance of energy and helped see employment rise from 1.1 million in the politics of energy supply. Senator Dardis and 1991 to over 1.9 million in 2005. It is predicted others have outlined the facts and the figures. It that 2 million people will be employed here by is no exaggeration to state we face an energy the end of this year. While France faces the chal- crisis in the years to come but solutions are pos- lenge of addressing why more than 20% of its 18 sible if we put on our thinking caps. Obviously to 25 year olds are unemployed, we in Ireland are the European Union will play an important role. currently creating more jobs than we can fill. We The Government and policymakers must drive must ensure that our policy process allows us to the question of energy to a greater degree than stay competitive and foster innovation. As at present. We made a small start in the budget Ireland’s economy becomes increasingly know- by way of minor tax relief but we need to do ledge-driven, we must be open to new ideas, new much more in that regard. Last week the Minister people and new agreements. for Communications, Marine and Natural I conclude by congratulating all involved in the Resources, Deputy Noel Dempsey, announced March European Council. Citizens in member some new energy grants through Sustainable states need these meetings to exemplify how Energy Ireland. We must look at conservation as Europe is working for them. While the Council well as alternative energy. does seem focused on the issues that are of real I was interested in what Senator Dardis said concern to people, I would encourage it to work about his party’s policy document. This is to be even harder to ensure that all the institutions and welcomed. All parties must play a role in bringing facets of the Union that interface with the public forward new ideas, although the thinking about are similarly focused. alternative energy is not new. These technologies are in place. They are not rocket science. We Mr. Bradford: I welcome the Minister of State need a combination of grant aid and political to the House and thank him for his contribution. encouragement. Europe has a role to play in this In the few minutes available to me I wish to make regard. It is a frightening thought that from an a number of points concerning last week’s meet- energy point of view Europe is so dependent on ing and refer to some broader issues relating to external factors. This is not a new problem. We the European project and how we can ensure the are now arriving at the same situation in regard public’s full participation in that. to the food supply in Europe because of the poli- The Minister of State has come to this House cies we have adopted in the past ten or 12 years. and has attended the Oireachtas Joint Committee We are facing a future in which Europe is not on European Affairs on many occasions to dis- even guaranteed its own food supply within the cuss the central issues of European policy continent. We will have to reflect on this matter development and its relevance to Ireland and its as we debate agriculture and its role, not just in economy. One of the political difficulties we all Ireland but in Europe. That is an aside but it is face is that of trying to engage the public to the something we should not forget. level we would wish. It is disappointing, notwith- Thinking I had more than six minutes to speak standing the important role which the politics of I brought a report with me from the Taoiseach’s Europe and the European Community plays in Department on the national reform programme. 535 European Council: 5 April 2006. Statements 536

[Mr. Bradford.] mitment to improved energy efficiency, there will It dates from last October, which is the most be a detailed rolling out over the coming months recent one available. I am disappointed we have of alternative fuel sources and the financial sup- not made more progress on the Lisbon Agenda. port they will require. It is what Europe should be about — improving I am sure Members on all sides of the House the economic growth of the Continent as well as are impressed by the commitment of the Swedish the economic and social opportunities of the Government in predicting that it will have an oil- people of Europe. We should be selling the mess- free economy by the year 2020. Some cynics have age that Europe works well, not just politically laughed at this proposal but the Swedes have a but economically. The success story of Europe is very efficient economy. I have no doubt that if not just about bringing peace to a previously war- they have made that commitment they will strive torn Continent, it has been about developing vary hard to achieve it. Ireland should not lag too economies and opportunities and opening up the far behind in that regard. Union to new people and new countries. The It is interesting and instructive to recall that Lisbon Agenda is at the very core of that. We when the then Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, must try to keep it very much at the top of our committed Ireland to adhere to the Kyoto Agree- political agenda. ment on the reduction of environmental pollution Most of our constituents have little knowledge by fuel and industry, it seemed to be a more inno- of the Lisbon Agenda. I do not think it is a ques- cent era. In the past ten years, the car population tion of them having little interest, it is more a case has almost doubled as has the working population of little knowledge. We all have a political task in and housing infrastructure has hit the strato- hand to try to sell that message and keep the sphere. The country’s population is estimated to Lisbon Agenda to the forefront of policy. In the be between 4 million and 4.2 million. The envir- recent Council meeting the Taoiseach and his col- onment is under enormous strain as is the leagues discussed the knowledge economy, the Government’s capacity to provide the necessary development of small and medium-sized busi- engine to continue to fuel the economic growth nesses and opportunities for young people, which being enjoyed. are so important. I am a firm supporter of alternative energy Senator Dardis and others referred to the prob- sources and this is a time for innovative ideas in lems in France last week. The irony is that in this regard. I hope the Government will address other countries where perhaps there has been a greater willingness to be flexible, look at different the very real challenge facing the country and economic models and put in place greater incen- future generations if economic growth is to be tives, jobs have been created to a greater degree. sustained. This is necessary to provide a success- All of that debate must come to the fore. ful economy but also a society that is acceptable I look forward to more of these debates. I hope and without doing harm to our quality of life. that our Europe day gives us the opportunity to A recent Forfa´s report suggested that in the sell this message and take the debate to the wid- long term, we may be forced to consider the est possible number of people. nuclear option for providing energy. The Taoiseach ruled this out completely in his report Mr. Mooney: I endorse the comments of my to the Da´il on the European Council. I have colleagues from all sides of the House in always believed that politicians should never say extending a hearty ce´ad mı´le fa´ilte to our dis- “never” because it usually comes back to bite one tinguished Minister of State with responsibility in the hand. While I am not suggesting that for European affairs. I also put on record my con- nuclear power should be introduced into this gratulations to him in another context; for having country, if there was not a problem regarding the crossed one electoral hurdle on his way to the disposal of the waste, nuclear power would be the next election at his recent convention. most efficient form of energy. I appreciate that we may not have achieved sufficient critical mass An Cathaoirleach: The Senator should confine to justify a nuclear power station. I hope the For- himself to comments on the European Council. fa´s report would not be buried and that the debate on Ireland’s future energy needs and the Mr. Mooney: I appreciate that and thank the need to become more self-sufficient will be Cathaoirleach. The Taoiseach in reporting on the continued. activities of the European Council, highlighted The Taoiseach also referred to other areas of the Lisbon project and also the energy issue importance such as youth unemployment and which increasingly is beginning to dominate the state aid. The question of aid to industry is critical lives of European citizens. It is a timely contri- to our continuing economic success. I welcome bution from the Irish Government, especially in the fact that the Taoiseach deplored the recent light of the recent statistics showing that Ireland presidential election in Belarus.As a member of is probably the most vulnerable of EU member the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs I regard states regarding security of future fuel and oil it as important that Ireland’s policy is that Pres- supplies. In that context I hope that following on ident Lukashenko’s activities are unacceptable in the Taoiseach’s statement and on Ireland’s com- any civilised society. 537 European Council: 5 April 2006. Statements 538

The Taoiseach also referred in his report to the I look forward to the amended services direc- outcome of the referenda in France and Holland. torate. It has established the role of the Parlia- He is of the view that this country should con- ment in a way that was envisaged in the consti- tinue to support the European constitution. tution, which is positive. Commissioner While it is not for me as a mere Seanad back- McCreevy has told the forum to have an opt-out bencher to question the Government’s high as a sort of workable document. I hope that can policy, as a result of my experiences in Europe, I be a template for the future. am aware there is a vibrant, energetic debate I wish the Minister of State well in his dis- about the future of Europe being carried on in cussions with the states due for accession under Europe. Senator Bradford is a member of the the next round of enlargement. I congratulate Council of Europe and may concur with me. I him, the Minister for Foreign Affairs and the do believe that an unequivocal or unambiguous Taoiseach on the effort that has been put into this acceptance of the European constitution in its issue and the general competence with which they present form, as has been discredited by the elect- represent Ireland’s interests, and their concern orate in France and Holland, is necessarily in the for a wider European vision. best interests of this country. There is a need for a debate on how the Europe of the future is to Mr. Lydon: The Council adopted comprehen- be shaped. sive conclusions on a new energy policy for Europe. The Taoiseach stated that the president Dr. M. Hayes: I thank the Minister of State for of the European Central Bank, Mr. Jean-Claude his references to the forum and to me personally, Trichet, had pointed out that differing economic for which I am very grateful. and social models are capable of achieving similar The youth forum held in Dublin and Cork was results. The Council’s conclusions on energy very successful and it will be held shortly in policy focused on three main objectives, namely, Galway. A very successful schools competition security of supply, ensuring continuing competi- was held for transition year students and it was tiveness and promoting economic sustainability. attended by the Minister for Education and The Government will publish a Green Paper on Science last Monday. On the previous Monday energy in the coming months and the spring the forum heard submissions. Council next year will prioritise an action plan on The forum does not claim any monopoly on the objectives of the energy policy. One of the this discussion as the more widespread the dis- results of the Council meeting is an improved cussion is and the more bodies involved, the EU-Russia dialogue to make energy policy more better and this is acknowledged by the Minister effective in the context of developing an intercon- of State. nection action plan. What I say in the rest of my contribution has The Taoiseach reiterated that Ireland rejects nothing to do with the forum and it will not take the use of nuclear power, which is in keeping with any responsibility for it. In my opinion we should the wishes of most of our people. He also pointed not be so categorical and dismissive of nuclear out that our small market is not necessarily energy forever and a day. It could well be less attractive to major energy companies and we environmentally destructive than the continued have difficulties in mobilising private sector use of fossil fuels, particularly with regard to glo- investment for energy. However, we have agreed bal warming. Countries like France seem to man- in principle to build interconnectors between age quite well by having a sizeable amount of Ireland and Britain, which will open up the route nuclear production. We should be pressing for to the European grid, and we have strong support cleaner nuclear energy. Whether or not we dis- for proposals on renewable energy. Energy policy miss nuclear energy, but in particular if we do, we cuts across environment, climate change, trans- need to invest far more effort into the provision port, regional, research and development and of alternatives such as wind and wave energy and external relations policies. The relevant Minister biomass. There is now the possibility of produc- has recently promised grants for conservation of ing diesel oil from rapeseed and a whole series of energy, particularly with regard to solar power, crops. With regard to the potential of producing which is to be commended as a positive step energy from wind and wave, a good North-South forward. project would be to harness the tidal race in The Taoiseach in his discussions with the Strangford Lough, near to my home, which Austrian Presidency referred to several national produces a tide of four to eight knots, twice a day. programmes that are in keeping with the Lisbon This has been crying out for years to be harnessed Agenda, including Science Foundation Ireland’s as an energy source. centre for science, engineering and technology I commend the Taoiseach on raising the matter and the Skillnets and One Step Up programmes of roaming charges for cell phones. Senator to equip our labour force. One of the major McHugh and I are the people in this House who developments which Ireland has managed to are most affected. Every time I leave Newry it latch onto and which has helped our economy to costs me a fortune. It is very difficult for people develop so strongly is investment in education who must cross the Border. and training. If we continue with this policy, we 539 European Council: 5 April 2006. Statements 540

[Mr. Lydon.] to driving forward an action plan on energy will be in line with the Lisbon Agenda in this efficiency, implementing the biomass action plan, regard. developing an interconnection action plan and Senators Ormonde and Quinn referred to the making the EU-Russia dialogue more effective. issue of jobs and the issue of being able to set up This is important for all of Europe, including a company in Ireland within a week. I am sure it Ireland. can be achieved in three days, although this is The Commission has been asked to submit a disputed by Senator Quinn. The Council agreed priority interconnection plan by the end of 2006. that by 2010 all unemployed young persons Such a plan is very much in keeping with the should be offered a job, apprenticeship, importance of interconnection to our national additional training or another measure within no energy supply. There is agreement in principle to more than four months. We are doing well in this the building of a second North-South intercon- regard as the national practice is to do so within nector and the technical aspects of this are being six months, and our achievement of many other examined. The Government has agreed in prin- targets is ahead of other countries. ciple to building an interconnector between The Joint Committee on European Affairs met Ireland and Britain. This would link us to the UK this morning with an Icelandic delegation. As grid and ultimately to the European grid. The many delegations have done, they questioned us Commission on Energy Regulation has submitted on issues such as tax harmonisation, immigration its report to the Minister for Communications, and so on. The committee told the delegation that Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Noel the Government objective was not to limit Dempsey, who will make a recommendation to migration because immigrants were helping the Government shortly. country. It was accepted that there were problems In the ongoing discussions on a future energy with this policy but that we were coping with policy for Europe, lreland has raised questions them. We also told the delegation that we would about how the Commission sees the major invest- not agree to tax harmonisation because we are ment projects in networks and storage facilities doing well out of it. being delivered and funded. We have offered The Council meeting was comprehensive and strong support for proposals around renewable useful, particularly with regard to energy issues. I energy, energy efficiency and increased funding wish the Taoiseach and his Ministers well. for research and development. On renewable energies, the European Council agreed to con- Minister of State at the Department of Foreign sider in the future some new targets on the share Affairs (Mr. Treacy): I thank the Senators for of renewable energies of the overall energy mix their diverse and focused contributions on this and a target on biofuels. These would also con- important aspect of European affairs, particularly the analysis of the Council of Europe meeting. As tribute to the fight against climate change while I indicated in my opening statement, this Euro- also reducing the EU’s dependence on energy pean Council demonstrated again that the Euro- imports. pean Union can respond effectively to the needs Issues such as energy diversification, intercon- and aspirations of our citizens. The Heads of nection, storage, security of supply and greater State and Government have advanced the Lisbon exploitation of indigenous resources are all of Agenda for growth and jobs, adopted compre- crucial importance to Ireland. Energy policy cuts hensive conclusions on a new energy policy for across environment, climate change, transport, Europe and respected fully the prerogatives of regional, research and development and external member states as they seek to achieve closer co- relations policies. The future development of our operation on the challenges facing us. national policy approach will, therefore, be based The Taoiseach noted that discussions on on strong coherence at the national and EU level energy were very much a first step in what prom- between energy and other key policies. ises to be a long and complex process, a fact to I repeat that there is no basis whatsoever for which a number of Senators alluded. Given its doubting the strong opposition of the Taoiseach importance for lreland, we will be participating and the Government to nuclear energy, although actively in the EU debate and tabling our own some of the personal contributions by Senators contribution on the way forward. The Govern- showed a more liberal attitude to consideration ment will publish a national Green Paper on of that energy source. The Taoiseach made this energy in the coming months. clear at the European Council and subsequently. At EU level, the future development of the It is also the case that construction of a nuclear energy policy for Europe will be taken forward generating facility would require a change in through an annual strategic energy review which primary legislation, the Electricity Regulation the Commission will present on an annual basis Act 1999, which the Oireachtas would have to beginning next year. In addition, the spring Euro- approve. Section 18(6) of that Act states that “an pean Council next year will aim to adopt a prior- order under this section shall not provide for the itised action plan which will support the achieve- use of nuclear fission for the generation of elec- ment of the objectives of the energy policy. In the tricity”. The Government’s position on nuclear short term, the EU will pay particular attention energy should be clear to everyone. 541 Irish Language: 5 April 2006. Motion 542

We are currently considering carefully the — recognising that Irish is the only subject Commission’s revised text on the services that all students are required to take after directive. As I indicated, the Government is com- the junior certificate examination; mitted to the need for a balanced services — deeply concerned at the fact that, in spite directive which combines the benefits of a more of this situation, many of our young liberalised market in services with respect for the people are leaving school without any rights and interests of workers. We envisage no reasonable command of the Irish race to the bottom. language; As regards research and development, the Presidency conclusions record Ireland’s target of — acknowledging the findings of the 2003 2.5% of GNP by 2013. This is realistic and achiev- NCCA discussion document, Languages able. Ireland has recorded significant growth in in the Post-Primary Curriculum, which research and development expenditure by the stated that our syllabi and examinations public and private sectors in recent years. retain an emphasis on reading and writing However, because of the high level of growth by at the expense of listening and speaking; the economy in overall terms, this large increase calls on the Government to: in expenditure has been reflected in only a mod- est statistical increase when expressed as a per- — reform radically the curriculum for Irish centage of GNP. in second-level education, focusing on the It is entirely appropriate for lreland to express teaching of Irish as a living language of modern and useful communication; our investment in research and development as a percentage of GNP, rather than GDP, in view of — introduce an oral examination at junior the distorting effect of multinational companies certificate immediately and devise a new here on our economic statistics. This provides a subject for the leaving certificate, Com- better basis for comparison with investment in municating in Irish, which would focus to other member states and the European Com- a large extent on spoken Irish; mission has been advised, and has not objected, — allow all post-junior certificate students a to our use of GNP for this purpose. Our invest- choice as to whether to take Irish to leav- ment target and date were set out in the Govern- ing certificate level; and ment’s national reform programme for imple- menting the Lisbon strategy which was placed — devise a new national strategy for Irish before the Houses of the Oireachtas in October which sets out very clearly what the last year. On this matter, it will be noted that Government wants to achieve for the Irish Science Foundation Ireland’s centres for science, language, what will be done to support engineering and technology programme is high- this goal, and what is expected from agen- lighted by the European Commission as an cies and other partners in meeting the exemplary national project, a fact to which a challenges that lie ahead. number of Senators have referred. Cuirim fa´ilte roimh an Aire, agus molaim an ru´ n I sincerely thank all the Senators who contrib- ata´ os comhair an tSeanaid. I Samhain na bliana uted. It is important to have an opportunity to seo caite ag cruinniu´ a bhı´ eagraithe aige, du´ irt reflect on the various highest levels of discussions ceannaire Fhine Gael, an Teachta Kenny, gur at European level where the Heads of Govern- mhaith leis dı´ospo´ ireacht a thosnu´ ar cheist na ment and State sit down together and make Gaeilge, agus sin an fa´th go bhfuil an ru´ n seo os decisions that will have a major impact on the a´r gcomhair inniu. medium and long-term future of the Union. As I welcome the Minister of State to the House Members of Parliament it is important we have to take this important motion. It will start the an opportunity in this House to discuss those, to debate on this issue in this House. It is only right ensure our citizens are fully aware of the that we have an opportunity to contribute to the decisions that have been taken and that we com- debate on teaching our native Irish language as a municate them to the people in a positive manner living language. Unfortunately, during the years on a consistent basis. I sincerely thank all the there has been a decline in its use. Despite the Senators in this respect and look forward to meet- many efforts that have been made by various ing them again soon. Governments and Ministers during the years, it is unfortunate that much of what was intended in respect of it was never implemented. At a time Irish Language: Motion. when most other countries are conscious of the Mr. U. Burke: I move: significance of their native language and heritage, it is important that we would indicate our com- That Seanad E´ ireann: mitment to our native language. — noting that our young people receive The recognition of Irish as an official European 1,500 hours of education in the Irish lang- language two or three years ago was an important uage throughout their schooling, at an step. When Deputy Kenny made a statement last estimated cost of \500 million per annum; November on the Irish language and what he had 543 Irish Language: 5 April 2006. Motion 544

[Mr. U. Burke.] language such as French, the number of students envisaged for it, he did so in the context of being who take honours French at leaving certificate a Gaelic speaker. Furthermore, from the perspec- and achieve at that level is far greater than those tive of having being a teacher, he recognised the who take honours Irish. The most important part fact that there was a steady decline in the use of of this is that they are achieving a higher standard the Irish language and that many people were in French, as a foreign language, as opposed to leaving second level school having received 1,500 what is happening with Irish. hours tuition without any great proficiency in the The Minister of State is eager to get up and I Irish language or an ability to communicate in ask for the protection of the Cathaoirleach. Irish. Anybody who fails to accept the fact that there is something wrong in the way we are teach- An Cathaoirleach: The Senator has only ten ing the Irish language is hiding behind a smoke- minutes and I would like some order. screen and, unfortunately, that is the position in the case of many people. Minister of State at the Department of Edu- In the context of the Government’s amend- cation and Science (Mr. B. Lenihan): Ta´ tu´ cri- ment, the Minister for Education and Science will ochnaithe anois. recognise exactly what the leader of the Fine Gael Party was trying to achieve in initiating Mr. U. Burke: The statistics are there to prove debate on this issue. The Government’s amend- that the greater number of people achieve higher ment states “ further acknowledges that the Mini- standards in higher level French or other modern ster for Education and Science has made very languages than they do in Irish, our own native clear her intention to reform how Irish is taught”. language. Therefore something is wrong. The intention to reform the position is the basis The proposals of Fine Gael are that we would, of everything that has been said in the debate on first, give far greater resources at primary level this issue. However, how many previous Mini- and improve the facilities for teacher training at sters have made a similar statement and literally that level. Good work has been done by the gael- not done anything? In this instance, the Fine Gael scoileanna throughout the country and we should proposal is to do something that will be accept- acknowledge that fact. On Monday evening I was able not necessarily as a major sop to Gaeilgeoirı´ in a Gaeltacht area and I spoke with a teacher. alone but that will give young people an oppor- He stated that he was teaching subjects to hon- tunity to learn Irish because they want to do so ours leaving certificate standard trı´ Gaeilge, and rather than because they are forced to do so. there are no official textbooks which he can use. My party leader’s proposal is that students Something is wrong in such a case. would have to take Irish up to junior certificate Many people remember just a few years ago a and thereafter they would have a choice in that company being established in a Gaeltacht area to respect. The Department has indicated that Irish provide textbooks as Ghaeilge, perhaps translat- is compulsory in the same way as, in some ing books that were being used at secondary and instances, are English and mathematics. primary level. That company was not supported However, at least in respect of those latter two by U´ dara´s na Gaeltachta by way of any deontas subjects there is a choice, but in the case of Irish a raibh le fa´il. That was wrong, and it was the first there is none. indication of the failure of the Government to As a teacher I saw at first hand that many respond to a need that was there to support the students who took Irish went through the process Irish language. We must address the issue. of being physically present in the class and doing The 2002 census demonstrates the decline in what they were asked to do but thousands of the numbers of the people using Irish as their them went into the leaving certificate Irish exam- primary language on a daily basis. There was a ination and left after the statutory requirement of decline of 4%, even within the Gaeltacht areas. remaining at the desk for 30 minutes. I have often That must be a warning light to all concerned supervised leaving certificate examinations and about the Irish language. That is the reality of observed that in the case of the Irish examination, the census, and the commissioner himself drew the minute the clock ticks the half hour after the attention to it. official starting time students have left one after the other except those who were committed. It Mr. B. Lenihan: There was an increase of was in the spirit of recognising that something 140,000. must be done that Deputy Kenny initiated the debate on this issue. It does not do the cause of An Cathaoirleach: The Senator, without the Irish language any good to misrepresent his interruption. statements, as certain people have done. I want to put the position on the Irish language Mr. U. Burke: The Minister of State can con- into perspective. Students taking Irish who com- tradict the numbers for as long as he wants, but I mence at primary level and complete the leaving do not think the census statistics lie. certificate receive 1,500 hours tuition at a cost to It is important to note the three real ideas that the state of \500 million. Comparing that with the Deputy Kenny is looking to have in place, position of students who take another European namely, reform, renewal and revival. Anybody 545 Irish Language: 5 April 2006. Motion 546 misinterpreting them and stating otherwise is reflective of an increased desire among wrong. The idea of revival is important. Deputy parents to educate their children through Kenny proposed that after the junior certificate, Irish; people who wished to take Irish as a subject would have a choice. They could take a subject — acknowledges that in recent years a new called communicating in Irish, where there would curriculum has been introduced for Irish be an emphasis on the spoken language, and 50% at primary level, modern literature and of the marks in the subject would be awarded for film have been added to the leaving cer- a comhra´ examination. Others, who would really tificate curriculum and there has been a have a love of the language and wished to learn substantial increase in investment in texts of the heritage and literature of the Irish langu- and resources to support the teaching of age, could take a subject tailored to that effect. Irish; These people could specialise in such a way. — further acknowledges that the Minister for It is possible to make Irish a living language if Education and Science has made very we have people speaking the language. Why can clear her intention to reform how Irish is this be done in other areas but it cannot be done taught at senior cycle level in particular with our own language? This debate is worthy of and has asked the National Council for attention. In a recent MRBI poll, 62% of the Curriculum and Assessment to make pro- population agreed with the elimination of the posals for curriculum change to her as a compulsion to do Irish to leaving certificate level. matter of priority, and for these proposals It should be there as a choice, and people should to include greater emphasis on the spoken be given the opportunity to learn the language language; and for the love of it rather than being compelled to do so. — believes that all parties should support reform of how Irish is taught in our Mr. McHugh: I second the motion. schools rather than jeopardising the future of the language by calling for its status in An Cathaoirleach: Is the Senator speaking at our education system to be downgraded.” this stage? I welcome the Minister of State and I wish to start Mr. McHugh: No. with cu´ pla focail as Ghaeilge. Molaim i gconaı´ daoine nach bhfuil a la´n Gaeilge acu iarracht a An Cathaoirleach: He is reserving the time to dhe´anamh Gaeilge a labhairt san tSeanad. Pe´ speak later. nach bhfuil a la´n Gaeilge agam fe´in, is mian liom ara´ go bhfuil me´ ag tabhairt teachiochta don Ms Ormonde: I move amendment No. 1: leasu´ ata´ curtha sı´os o´ n tAire. I always admire To delete all words after “That” and substi- Senators who come into this House and make an tute the following: effort to speak Irish. While I may not have the blas myself and am not good at speaking Irish, I “Seanad E´ ireann, wish to have my cu´ pla focail on the record — recognises the constitutional position of because of my interest in the revival of the Irish Irish as the national language and the first language. official language of the State; The wording on the proposed amendment is self-explanatory. Irish is recognised in the Consti- — acknowledges the Government’s success tution as the national language, and the Govern- in gaining recognition for Irish as an ment is clearly committed to promoting it. That official language of the European Union; is evidenced by its increased funding and support — further acknowledges the Government’s for TG4 and the Gaeltacht areas. The Govern- increased support for TG4; ment has also introduced the Official Languages Act and succeeded in making Irish an official lan- — believes that these measures are important in raising the esteem in which guage in the EU. the language is held in society in general, something which naturally has an effect Mr. U. Burke: Very reluctantly. on students’ interest in learning Irish; Ms Ormonde: There is now a gaelscoil in every — notes that in the 2002 census, 140,000 county in Ireland, which clearly shows evidence more people classified themselves as Irish of a new interest in the language in areas where speakers than had been the case in the there was no past interest. My party will do every- 1996 census, with significant growth in the thing to facilitate that group, and the Govern- number of people outside the Gaeltacht ment remains committed not just to the conser- who speak Irish; vation of the Irish language but to the promotion — further notes that this year, for the first and expansion of its use. We have seen significant time, there is a gaelscoil in every county improvements in the provision of textbooks and in the country, a development which is teaching material through An Comhairle, set up 547 Irish Language: 5 April 2006. Motion 548

[Ms Ormonde.] I hope Senator Burke’s party gives its full sup- in 2002. There is a perception, whether we like it port to the reform efforts under way, rather than or not that we wish to downgrade Irish. proposing to abandon compulsory Irish after jun- ior certificate level. Given the centrality of our Mr. U. Burke: It should be corrected. language to our culture and identity as a nation I hope Senators opposite will put party political An Cathaoirleach: Senator Ormonde without difference aside and work with us to ensure the interruption. future of the Irish language is a bright one. I sincerely hope young people enjoy learning Ms Ormonde: The Irish language for too long Irish as a result of the reforms to be put in place, suffered a lack of commitment from successive which are in line with the Minister’s commitment Governments. Every side of the House has been to bring about a continual increase in the number guilty on that front. Nobody should act like a of people speaking Irish on a daily basis. “Mr. Clean” in discussing how the language was treated in the past. Under this Administration, Mr. O’Toole: Ba mhaith liom, ma´sfe´idir, pro- the language is undergoing a revival, as the facts pose my own amendment. Is that allowed? show. This is not to say we cannot do better. Many An Cathaoirleach: No. young people are still leaving school unable to converse through Irish. It is a sad reality that this Mr. O’Toole: No? In that case I will just speak Government is determined to tackle. Shortly to my own amendment. after the Minister for Education and Science took up her post, she highlighted this as an issue for An Cathaoirleach: A Senator can only propose prioritisation. She stated her view that 50% of the one amendment at a time. marks in leaving certificate Irish should be for the oral examinations. I was interested to see this Mr. O’Toole: Ar an la´ deireannach, bhı´os ag proposal recycled some time ago by the e´isteacht leis an dı´ospo´ ireacht sa Teach eile mar Opposition. gheall ar ra´itis i nGaoluinn, agus nı´ do´ igh liom The syllabus for Irish at post-primary level is gur chualas aon ra´iteas a bhı´ chomh holc sin o´ also built on the communicative approach, and it aon Aire Gaeltachta le blianta anuas. Nı´ raibh will have an integrated approach to develop the fiu´ fe´in script aige. Nı´ raibh moltaı´ aige, agus bhı´ daoine den scoth from the Opposition os a four language skills of speaking, listening, reading chomhair amach, daoine ar no´ s an Teachta and writing. In every aspect of language learning O’Dowd, an Teachta Joe Higgins agus an Teachta — teacher training, curriculum, textbook, teach- O’Shea; daoine a bhfuil suim acu sa Ghaoluinn ing methods and aids, support services and agus a bhı´ in ann ı´ a phle´.Nı´or chuala me´ dı´os- inspection systems for examinations — there po´ ireacht ariamh a bhı´ chomh holc leis an me´id a should be an urgent and impartial review of the bhı´ a´ ra´ ag an Aire. learning and teaching of Irish. Ta´ me´ ag fe´achaint anseo ar Department of the Irish should be taught in schools in a way that Taoiseach: Action Programme for the Millen- is interesting and relevant, and which will pro- nium. I congratulate Senator Ormonde on a spir- mote a positive attitude among our young people. ited defence of her Government, since that is I am very much against the proposal in front of what she is there to do. Caithfidh me´ ara´ nach us to abandon compulsory Irish after the junior n-aonto´ inn le´i i ngach rud a du´ irt sı´,a´fach. Cuir- certificate examination. fear plean na´isiu´ nta don re´amhscolaı´ocht agus don Ghaelscolaı´ocht le che´ile. That has not been Mr. U. Burke: There is no proposal to aban- done. Cuirfear coiste na´isiu´ nta comhordaithe ar don it. bun. That has been done. The last thing that I wish to talk about is: cuirfear la´r-ionad acmhainnı´ Ms Ormonde: I will not under any circum- ar bun chun a´iseanna cearta oideachasu´ la a chur stances agree to the suggestion that Irish not be ar fa´il le haghaidh fhoghlaimeoirı´ na teanga. Nı´or compulsory at post-junior certificate level. It is deineadh e´ sin. I 1999, nuair a bhı´ an Teachta O´ important to realise that the promotion of the Ma´irtı´n ina Aire Oideachais agus Eolaı´ochta, Irish language cannot be advanced by schools mhol se´ don Rialtas go mbeadh la´r-ionad oide- alone, and that societal attitudes to the language achas Gaoluinne na´isiu´ nta lonnaithe i mBaile also impact on students’ desire to learn it. The Bhu´ irne i gContae Chorcaı´. That was the pro- Opposition stated that there was something posal, straight and simple. Ghlac an Rialtas lena wrong when we achieve a higher leaving certifi- mholadh, agus chuireadar airgead ar fa´il an cate points total in French and German than we bhliain sin o´ the capital programme. Nı´or tharla do in Irish. The problem is attitudinal, rather than aon rud, agus nı´l fhios agam ce´nfa´th. a lack of commitment. With commitment to the Ina dhiaidh sin, tha´inig an Teachta Woods iste- methods of reviving a language there is no ques- ach mar Aire. Chuaigh se´ go Baile Bhu´ irne le tion of not being able to raise the standard of che´ile le hArd-Ru´ naı´ na Roinne Oideachais agus Irish at the leaving certificate, higher level paper. Eolaı´ochta, agus chas se´ an fo´ dar an rud seo. Nı´or 549 Irish Language: 5 April 2006. Motion 550 tharla aon rud ina dhaidh sin. The next Minister Why have we not established the centre in was Deputy Dempsey. Bhı´ se´ go mo´ r i bhfabhar Baile Bhu´ irne? People are opposed to it, but in chomh maith. Nothing happened. Anois, ta´ an the past week I have spoken to U´ dara´s na Gael- tAire, an Teachta Hanafin, politician of the year, tachta, and it is favour. I have spoken to An i bhfeighil an ruda seo. Ta´ an-jab a´ dhe´anamh Roinn Gno´ thaı´ Tuaithe, Pobail agus Gaeltachta, aici, agus ta´ me´ cinnte go bhfuil sı´ ba´u´ il don and it is in favour, as is Foras na Gaeilge. All the teanga, something that I would not take from her, main players are in favour. The Department of ach nı´or tharla aon rud. Education and Science is in ainm a bheith i The Opposition may have differing opinions on bhfabhar. Ce´nfa´th nach bhfuil se´ tarlaithe? It is the points made by Senator Burke, but he has because somebody is blocking it somewhere, per- pointed out flaws in the system. Dha´ sco´ r bliain haps because it is too far from Dublin. o´ shin, agus me´ ag freastal ar scoil na mBra´ithre Crı´ostaı´ i nDaingean Uı´ Chu´ is, as it is correctly Mr. Ryan: Hear, hear. called, An Daingean as the Minister calls it, or Dingle Uı´ Chu´ is, as others call it, bhı´os ag fogh- Mr. O’Toole: How can people in the Gaeltacht laim mo chuid Laidine trı´ Ghaoluinn as te´acsleab- run their own affairs? We have spent 80 years har Be´arla. It was natural and normal at the time, ordering them around from Dublin. This centre and we did not pay much attention to it, but it is must be established in the Gaeltacht ionas go utterly unacceptable that 40 years later the same mbeadh beocht ann i measc mhuintir na Gael- thing is still happening. I will say this in English tachta, i measc mhuintir na Gaoluinne, agus go lest there be any doubt among those listening. My mbeadh siad ag cur ar fa´il na dte´acsanna agus colleagues in the Gaeltacht who teach in primary gach rud eile ata´ ag teasta´il o´ na scoileanna trı´d schools — the same happens in post-primary an tı´r. schools — have been crying out for an Irish text- Is mise an t-aon duine sa Teach seo o´ n nGael- book of the standard that those in the rest of the tacht. Every time that I go home, people tell me country would expect of an English textbook. No of their problems. I do not know why there is not aspect of the geography curriculum in primary or a Gaeltacht uprising over the way that they have post-primary schools is available i nGaoluinn. been treated over the years. The smart comments There are other examples. The Minister for about Gaeltacht grants are not what they need. Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs is more They need to be able to live their lives trı´ Ghaolu- interested in picking a fight with the people of inn. In terms of education, that means re´amhsco- the Gaeltacht by taking away their right to deter- laı´ocht, primary education, an dara le´ibhe´al, an mine the names of where they live than what chil- trı´u´ le´ibhe´al, ollscolaı´ocht and adult education trı´ dren learn in school. He is far more interested in Ghaoluinn. That is what this centre can do. There what is written on a signpost or in ensuring that are other groups that can do things. I spoke to the NRA and other semi-State companies An Coiste um Oideachas Gaeltachta agus Gael- unnecessarily spend huge amounts producing scolaı´ochta last night, with which I have had some hard copies of glossy, pictorial versions of their differences of opinion in recent times. However, annual reports, a total waste of money. In the they are doing a good job, and I will not take that meantime, what was proposed for Baile Bhu´ irne away from them. would have produced, from day one, te´acsanna In Baile Bhu´ irne, we had something that would agus leathanaigh Idirlı´ne as Gaoluinn and all deal with Gaoluinn across the whole island at sorts of information technology material trı´ every level of education and provide things that Ghaoluinn to be used on the day by schools would immediately be used for teaching and around the country looking for such texts. learning Irish. If we do nothing else, we must rail- People correctly stress the importance of gael- road whoever is blocking this and deal with the scoileanna and have lauded their achievements, issue. More importantly, the Minister should tell but I visited every Gaeltacht school in west Kerry us who is blocking it, why it has not happened and in south Connemara a couple of years ago hitherto, and where the problem lies. We must and did not find one classroom where every child show support for schools and education. In that had Gaoluinn o´ n chliabha´n. In every class, there sense, we might differ with aspects of what Fine were a few. I was in foinse na Gaoluinne, i nDu´ n Gael is doing tonight, but the bunphrionsabal is Chaoin, agus bhı´ leanaı´ sa scoil sin, naı´ona´in sho´ - absolutely fundamental. isear a bhı´ tagtha o´ Londain, o´ n Spa´inn agus o´ n Ghearma´in, but those teachers are still trying to Labhra´sO´ Murchu´ : Ta´ fa´ilte roimh an Aire inculcate the Irish language without the support chuig an dı´ospo´ ireacht seo. I nda´irı´re, is maith an of textbooks, and that is completely and utterly rud e´ go bhfuil sı´ ag tarlu´ , mar cruthaı´onn se´ sin wrong. The Minister for Community, Rural and go bhfuil an Ghaeilge beo agus go bhfuil gra´ Gaeltacht Affairs should be taken to the real againn uilig don teanga. Ta´imid ag iarraidh com- world, where such things are necessities. hoibriu´ le che´ile le cinntiu´ go mbeidh feabhas ar The Fine Gael argument is correct, even if it sta´das na Gaeilge, nı´ amha´in sa cho´ ras oideachais does not mean that the contents of the Fianna ach sa timpeallacht freisin. Caithfidh an trı´ rud Fa´il amendment are untrue. The things that it dul le che´ile, an co´ ras oideachais, an scolaı´ocht leaves out are the problem. agus an timpeallacht. Ma´ fhe´achtar siar ar stair 551 Irish Language: 5 April 2006. Motion 552

´ [Labhra´sOMurchu´ .] is beag cur ina choinne a bhı´ anseo. Is e´ an tAcht na Gaeilge, feicfear go bhfuil sa´robair de´anta le teanga an dul chun cinn a chruthaı´onn go bhfuili- blianta fada ag na scoileanna. Ba e´ ceann de na mid da´irı´re faoin Ghaeilge agus go bhfuil se´ i gce- deacrachtaı´ a bhı´ ann i gco´ naı´ na´ e´ seo. Is cuma ist againn an timpeallacht a ghaelu´ trı´ seirbhı´sı´ a ce´n cumas Gaeilge a bhı´ ag daoine, nuair a chua- chur ar fa´il. dar lasmuigh den scoil sa Ghalltacht, nı´ raibh an Ar chreid e´inne 20 no´ deich mbliana o´ shin go Ghaeilge a´ hu´ sa´id. Mar sin, nı´or fhe´ach na scola´irı´ mbeadh sta´das oifigiu´ il ag an Ghaeilge i ar an Ghaeilge mar rud a bhı´ ta´bhachtach ann gComhphobal na hEorpa? Nı´ do´ igh liom gur fe´in agus a bhı´ a´ u´ sa´id go nua-aimseartha i measc chreid. Bhı´ coiste ann, a´fach, agus molaim Con- an phobail. radh na Gaeilge, Foras na Gaeilge, agus Ta´ se´ suimiu´ il i nda´irı´re go bhfuil feabhas tag- Comhdha´il Na´isiu´ nta na Gaeilge, a tha´inig le tha ar an timpeallacht anois. Nı´ do´ igh liom go che´ile. Ce´rbh iad na daoine a bhı´ amuigh ar na bhfe´adfadh e´inne a ra´ nach bhfuil sa´rjab de´anta sra´ideanna sa le´irsiu´ ?Nı´or sheandaoine iad ach ag TG4. Bı´m ag caint le daoine. daoine o´ ga a bhı´ ag lorg cearta don Ghaeilge. Chuireadar bru´ iontach ar gach e´inne le cinntu´ go Mr. Ryan: Buı´ochas leis an Teachta Michael mbeadh sta´das oifigiu´ il oibre ag an Ghaeilge san Higgins. Eoraip, rud ata´ againn anois. Ma´s rud e´ go bhfuil- imid ag caint ar dhul chun cinn sa timpeallacht, Labhra´sO´ Murchu´ : Aontaı´m leis an Seanado´ ir. ta´ an-dul chun cinn ann. Sheas an Teachta Michael Higgins an fo´ dagan Nı´ hionann e´ sin agus a ra´ nach fe´idir linn am sin. feabhas a chur ar sta´das na Gaeilge sa cho´ ras oideachais, agus ba cho´ ir du´ inn taighde a dhe´an- Mr. O’Toole: In fairness to the former amh air sin. Tugaim faoi deara go bhfuil geallu´ int Taoiseach, Charles Haughey, chuir seisean air- tugtha ag an Aire go bhfuil se´ i gceist aige taighde gead ar fa´il. a dhe´anamh agus be´im i bhfad nı´os mo´ a chur ar chumas cainte. Ba mhaith liom an me´id seo a ra´, Labhra´sO´ Murchu´ : Bhı´ an-chuid daoine a bhı´ a´fach. Nı´ ghlacaim leis gur easpa chumas cainte ag cur i gcoinne TG4, no´ Teilifı´s na Gaeilge mar an fhadhb is mo´ ach easpa muinı´ne. Is minic a a tugadh air ag an am, a´ ra´ go gcosno´ dh se´ an bhı´onn bunchloch na Gaeilge ag daoine, an iomarca. Nach raibh se´ sin fı´or? Is cuimhim liom foclo´ ir agus an ghramadach, ach ta´ easpa muinı´ne na dı´ospo´ ireachtaı´ ar an teilifı´s. acu. Cad ina thaobh go bhfuil easpa muinı´ne ann? Ta´imid ag caint anseo faoi fhe´inmhuinı´n mar na´i- Mr. O’Toole: Agus anseo, fiu´ . siu´ n, an rud is ta´bhachtaı´. Seo a´r dteanga fe´in, an teanga na´isiu´ nta. Ta´ litrı´ocht shaibhir sa Ghae- Labhra´sO´ Murchu´ : Sheasadar an fo´ d, agus ilge sin. chruthaı´odar go raibh fe´in-mhuinı´n againn agus Ag am a bhfuil gach na´isiu´ n ar domhan ag iar- go raibh se´ ar a´r gcumas rud a dhe´anamh ar raidh cinntiu´ go mbeidh an fhe´iniu´ lacht na´isiu´ nta cheap an-chuid daoine nach raibh se´ inde´anta. Ta´ chun tosaigh, an Ghearma´in, an Fhrainc agus se´ de´anta anois, agus nı´l aon amhras faoi ach go gach tı´r eile, ta´ se´ ta´bhachtach du´ inne dı´reach an bhfuil se´ sin ag cabhru´ go mo´ r linn o´ thaobh chur rud ce´anna a dhe´anamh agus a´r bhfe´iniu´ lacht na´i- chun cinn na Gaeilge de, agus tugann se´ sin siu´ nta a chosaint. Caithfimid rud amha´in a shea- do´ chas du´ inn. chaint, a´fach, a bhaineann le cuid de na deac- Ta´ gaelscoil anois i ngach uile chontae sa tı´r rachtaı´ a bhı´ againn go dtı´ seo, agus is e´ sin seo. Nı´ amha´in go bhfuil siad ag dul i bhfeabhas, dearcadh diu´ ltach. Caithfimid a bheith cu´ ramach ach ta´ daoine ag feitheamh le fa´il isteach sna gael- nach dtagann an dearcadh diu´ ltach i bhfeidhm scoileanna, mar ta´ se´ faiseanta an Ghaeilge a orainn go hiomla´n. Nuair a bhı´onn an dearcadh bheith ag duine. Ta´ se´ soile´ir go bhfuil ardchaigh- sin ann, ta´ se´ cinnte nach fe´idir rud dearfach a dea´n oideachais ar fa´il, ach ta´ focal eile thar a dhe´anamh, mar beimid diu´ ltach faoin teanga. bheith ta´bhachtach o´ thaobh na Gaeilge de. Ta´ Is cuma cad a thagann as an dı´ospo´ ireacht seo. e´iteas sna scoileanna sin ata´ ag teasta´il o´ na tuis- Nı´ do´ igh liom go mbaineann ta´bhacht ro´ -mhor le mitheoirı´. Sin bua eile, chomh maith le TG4, ach haon vo´ ta a bheidh anseo, slı´ amha´in no´ slı´ eile, ta´ bua eile fo´ s ag dul leis na gaelscoileanna. Las- anocht. Ta´ rud amha´in ta´bhachtach, a´fach, agus muigh, ta´ na tuismitheoirı´ ceangailte leis an oide- is e´ sin go leanaimid ar aghaidh aontaithe. achas sin. Bı´onn siad ag cabhru´ leis na scoileanna. D’fhe´adfaimis treoir a thabhairt don na´isiu´ n, agus Bı´onn siad istigh ansin ag iarraidh coiste a chur is fe´idir linn anois glacadh leis an dearcadh dear- le che´ile chun feabhas a chur ar na scoileanna. Is fach ata´ i measc an phobail o´ thaobh na Gaeilge rı´-annamh anois go mbı´onn se´ sin le feiscint, agus de. I ngach uile shuirbhe´ a rinneadh do dtı´ seo, beidh na gaelscoileanna ag me´adu´ chuile la´. bhı´ se´ soile´ir go raibh feabhas ag teacht ar an Tharla rud stairiu´ il sa Seomra seo anuraidh sce´al. Ta´ nı´os mo´ daoine ag labhairt na Gaeilge nuair a d’e´irigh linn ru´ n a chur le che´ile ar son na agus ina fabhar. Ta´ nı´os mo´ tuismitheoirı´ i bhfab- Gaeilge ar ghlac gach pa´irtı´ anseo leis. Bhı´omar har sta´das ceart a thabhairt don Ghaeilge sa ag troid chun sta´das oifigiu´ il oibre a bhaint amach cho´ ras oideachais. Ta´ su´ il agam, nuair a bheidh don Ghaeilge san Eoraip, ach d’aontaı´omar le an dı´ospo´ ireacht seo thart, is cuma cad a thagann che´ile anseo. Nuair a bhı´ an Bille teanga a´ phle´, aisti, go mbeidh muidinne in ann leanu´ int ar 553 Irish Language: 5 April 2006. Motion 554 aghaidh ag cabhru´ agus comhoibriu´ le che´ile agus In case there is an excess of optimism on the nach mbeidh aon dearcadh diu´ ltach ag dul amach other side, I am not suggesting that the Labour as an Teach seo. Party will vote for the Government amendment either. Ta´ rudaı´ ann lena n-aontaı´m ach sa lı´ne Mr. Ryan: Cuirim fa´ilte roimh an Aire. Ta´ me´ deireanach ta´ an abairt “believes that all parties an-drochbhe´asach faoi sin, agus is minic a should support reform of how Irish is taught in dhe´anaim dearmad ar a leithe´idara´. our schools rather than jeopardising the future of Maradu´ irt an cainteoir deiridh, is iontach an the language by calling for its status in our edu- rud e´ go bhfuil a leithe´id de dhı´ospo´ ireacht ar siu´ l cation system to be downgraded”. Ma´ ta´ daoine anseo, agus is fiu´ e´.Nı´lme´ cinnte gurbh e´ an rud ar lorg comhaontaithe faoi conas a la´imhsea´l- ab fhearr go mbeimis go le´ir ar aon aigne faoin faimis an Ghaeilge, nı´ chuirfidı´s a leithe´id ar an nGaoluinn. Ba cheart du´ inn a bheith ar aon fheal- chla´r. That is confrontational politics and the su´ nacht faoi na rudaı´ is ta´bhachtaı´,a´fach. Ta´ Labour Party will not vote for the amendment. beagnach gach e´inne san da´ Thigh den Oireachtas Bheadh Pa´irtı´ an Lucht Oibre sa´sta vo´ ta´il ar ar an meon ce´anna faoina dteastaı´onn uainn. Se´ son na leasaithe o´ na Seanado´ irı´ O’Toole agus a theastaı´onn uainn na´ go mbeadh an teanga dhu´ - Quinn because something funny is going on. Da´ chais againn beo, a´ labhairt go forleathan agus, mbeimis i nda´irı´re faoi seo bheadh te´acsleabhair go speisialta, go leanfaı´ ar aghaidh mar phobal den caighdea´n is airde ar fa´il do gach e´inne go beo pobal na Gaeltachta ina bhfuil an teanga a´ dteasto´ dh uaidh a´bhar ag an mbunscoil, mea´n- labhairt fo´ s. scoil no´ an trı´u´ leibhe´al a dhe´anamh trı´ Ghaeilge. Nuair a fhe´achtar ar an Ghaeilge, is fe´idir fe´a- Ta´ me´ amhrasach faoin phleidhcı´ocht ata´ ar siu´ l chaint ar an ngloine agus a ra´ go bhfuil se´ leath- faoin ionad na´isiu´ nta a ghealladh do Bhaile an ´ ´ ´ la´nno´ leath-fholamh. It is worth quoting some Bhuirne. Aontaım leis an Seanadoir O’Toole — someone in Dublin thinks Baile an Bhu´ irne is too statistics os comhair an Tı´.Ta´ 6,000 teanga sa far away, ta´ se´ chomh simplı´ sin. Ceapann siad domhan agus de re´ir na saineolaithe, half of those go bhfuil na Gaeltachtaı´ ro´ -fhada as Baile A´ tha are inevitably going to die out. Den 3,000 ata´ fa´g- Cliath. Sin trioblo´ id ata´ ag ghluaiseacht na tha, ta´ 90% acu i mbaol. Nı´l ach 300 teanga nach Gaeilge le 80 bliain — is mo´ r an trua nach bhfuil bhfuil i mbaol agus ta´ an Ghaeilge i measc leo. It an Ghaeltacht in aice le Baile A´ tha Cliath agus is an interesting fact that with all of our limi- bheadh se´ i bhfad nı´os compordaı´ le Gaeilgeoirı´ tations, failings and smart alecry, mar a du´ irt Bhaile A´ tha Cliath da´ mba rud e´ nach raibh orthu Coimisine´ir na Teanga, the last native Irish taistil agus iad fe´in a chur faoi mı´ochompord le speaker has not been born yet and will not be for cuairt a thabhairt don Ghaeltacht. Murach sin ce´n another few generations. We have not done as fa´th nach bhfuil an institiu´ id ar siu´ l? well as I would have wished but we have not done Glacaim go bhfuil a la´n daoine da´irı´re faoin as badly as many would have us believe; that is nGaeilge ach ta´ rudaı´ ata´ ag teasta´il le blianta. Ta´ the present situation. orainn athscru´ du´ bunu´ sach a chur ar siu´ l faoin Nuair a fhe´achaim ar an ru´ n ag Fine Gael ata´ do´ igh a mhu´ intear an Gaeilge sna bunscoileanna. os a´r gcomhair, ta´ mo´ ra´n ann lena n-aonto´ inn ach The single most extraordinary assumption that ta´ lı´ne amha´in ann nach fe´idir le Pa´irtı´ an Lucht bedevils the whole movement ar son na Gaeilge Oibre a thacu´ — go ligfı´ do gach mac le´inn tar na´ the assumption that the same curriculum can e´is an teastas so´ isir rogha a bheith aige Gaeilge a be taught in a Galltacht and a Gaeltacht school. tho´ ga´il san ardteist — agus mar gheall nı´ bheimid In one case children are being taught — agus ta´ ag vo´ ta´il ar son an ru´ n. Nı´ aontaı´m leis sin. Gaeilge ag an chuid is mo´ dı´ofa — about a langu- There is a valid argument about the teaching age ata´ acu cheana fe´in. I bhformho´ r na scoile- of Irish in this State and what we want to achieve. anna ta´ muid ag iarraidh teanga nua a chur ar fa´il. We have never clarified our thinking properly To use the same curriculum in both cases is about it. To call dramatically now for a sudden ridiculous. and fundamental change in the way Irish is We must bı´ cinnte go bhfuil na daoine ata´ ag treated in the leaving certificate is not appro- mu´ ineadh na Gaeilge compordach agus iad ag priate. There is a case for a review and I am labhairt na teanga. That is not an unreasonable happy to take it away from examination agus demand, it should be true of all languages. We gach rud mar sin go mbeadh ach sprioc amha´in a would not ask people to teach French who could bheith againn — go dtı´ an teastas so´ isir ar a not speak it fluently. Caithfidh te´acsanna a bheith laghad — go mbeadh Gaeilge labhartha cumas- ar fa´il fosta. ach ag gach e´inne ag fa´ga´il na mea´nscoile no´ ag Is fiu´ go bhfuil an dı´ospo´ ireacht seo ar siu´ l. Ta´ fa´ga´il na bunscoile. Da´ shroichfimis an sprioc sin, difrı´ocht beag idir mo pha´irtı´ fe´in agus Fine Gael d’fhe´adfaı´ tosnu´ ag caint faoi cad is fiu´ na Gaeilge ach nı´lse´ ro´ -mho´ r. Aire de chuid Pha´irtı´ an Lucht sa cho´ ras mea´nscolaı´ochta, go mo´ r-mho´ r san ard Oibre a chuir TG4 ar bun, an cinneadh is dearfaı´ teastas. If we could reach a stage where everyone ar son todhchaı´ na Gaeilge le 50 bliain anuas. Is could speak good Irish comfortably, we could e´ an athru´ is mo´ ar dearcadh an phobail faoin then talk about choices but it is putting the cart Ghaeilge agus faoi Ghaelachas na´ go bhfuil before the horse to talk about that before doing seirbhı´s teilifı´se proifisiu´ nta beo brı´omhar as the other. Gaeilge ar fa´il. An t-aon easpa na´ nach bhfuil na 555 Irish Language: 5 April 2006. Motion 556

[Mr. Ryan.] works in the prescribed prose and poetry sections hacmhainnı´ abacho´ ir ag TG4 agus mholfainn of the leaving certificate. den Aire agus den Rialtas acmhainnı´ TG4 a No matter what our personal view of the book mhe´adu´ go mo´ r. might be, there is a sense that one has only to mention the name Peig Sayers to a certain age Mr. Minihan: I welcome the Minister of State group and one will see a dramatic rolling of the to the House and the opportunity to speak on the eyes, or worse. If we are to move further towards use of the Irish language, how it is taught to chil- Irish as a living language of modern and useful dren and adults and its promotion and preser- communication, we need to learn from this. That vation. There will hardly be a Member of this the elective material element of the leaving cer- House who is not concerned by the fact many of tificate for both prose and poetry provides candi- our young people leave school without a reason- dates with opportunities to present alternative able command of the Irish language as stated in texts of their choice is a welcome development. the Opposition motion. I would also presume that I also commend the Government on working no Member or party would have a problem, in to provide a revised literature course that allows principle, with 1,500 hours of Irish language edu- the study of a contemporary Irish language film cation being delivered to Irish children through- as an alternative to the prescribed play. The Mini- out their school lives nor with the estimated ster has stated her view that the new Irish litera- annual cost of \500 million. It is also unclear how ture curriculum offers many opportunities to many people are truly worried that students are study modern texts and I commend her and her required to take Irish after the junior certificate Department on their efforts to date to provide examination. Few would take specific issue with both teachers and students with the ability to the findings in the 2003 NCCA document, Langu- choose works that match their interests. That is ages in the Post-Primary Curriculum, that our syl- an important point and not one, I suspect, recog- labi and examinations “retain an emphasis on nised generally or in the Opposition motion for reading and writing at the expense of listening that matter. and speaking”. I have some concerns about the final point of Given these points, this debate boils down to the Opposition motion on a new national strategy how the Irish language becomes, in the Oppo- for Irish. I understand Fo´ ram na Gaeilge was to sition’s words, “a living language of modern and look at the preparation of a 20-year strategic plan useful communication”. Our cultural heritage is with realistic goals for the Irish language in the protected and deepened by continuing to support State. It seems the advisability of a 20-year stra- tegic plan for the Irish language has been among our understanding, use and development of the the issues that have been considered in general Irish language in as many media as possible. terms by Fo´ ram na Gaeilge. The question of why Assessment of the Irish language in the curricu- it is advisable to have a strategic plan is lum must be part of a broader need to promote a debateable. Surely agreement exists on the need better understanding and valuing of our national for the development of a clear statement on the heritage and culture in schools. part of the Government on the Irish language. Moving on from a system which has not deliv- The Minister for Community, Rural and Gael- ered, necessitates understanding of what has and tacht Affairs has stated his hope to be able to what has not worked. I welcome the evaluation advance the matter “in the near future”. It would of teaching and learning in Irish which took place be worthwhile if the House could get some sense in 40 schools between January and June last year. of what work has been completed and what issues While the information gleaned from that must be are holding up a strategic plan with realistic goals analysed by the evaluation support and research for the language. unit, I urge that the final report be published as I wish to deviate briefly to make a point about soon as possible. Similarly, I hope the final report the promotion of the Irish language generally. of the evaluation of teaching and learning in the Much has been made of the requirement on junior cycle, in which 75 schools took part public bodies to ensure that certain documents of between September 2004 and June last year, will public interest shall be published in each of the also be published soon. official languages simultaneously — for example, I commend the Minister and the Government annual reports. Again, I suggest that no one has on working towards the revised literature course a particular problem with this in principle, for leaving certificate Irish. I understand this will although I understand some members of Fine be examined for the first time this year having Gael are now sorry they supported the Official been introduced in September 2004. It is crucial Languages Act. The problem seems to centre on that modern texts in Irish are part of the curricu- the cost. It is an issue which is talked about with lum. Language is central to the human experi- little, if any, reference to the facts. ence, whether the communication takes place In the first instance, the number of documents face to face or across time through literature. which must be translated is limited — covering Students should experience contemporary Irish major policy documents only. Second, the cost of language use and culture through modern texts compliance to Departments, the Revenue Com- and I welcome the inclusion of contemporary missioners and the Office of Public Works was 557 Irish Language: 5 April 2006. Motion 558 approximately \350,000 in 2005. Compare this Some years later, people wanted to progress with the total expenditure of Departments of further and began to do diploma courses. Now, in approximately \50 billion. The \350,000 cost of conjunction with Magee College in Derry, they compliance with the official languages legislation have begun to do degree courses in the Irish lang- should be kept in that context. People are often uage. This is an example of the positive work of accused of knowing the cost of everything and the the Irish language movement. I assume the same value of nothing and I suggest that when it comes is happening in other rural areas. It is a bottom- to preserving a language not only for us but for up approach and it is important to focus on it. people not yet born, we must shed that limited The Minister will be aware that Oideas Gael in view. Gleann Cholm Cille is very much a private I welcome this debate and the opportunity to entrepreneurial project. The director, Liam O´ hear the view of all sides, particularly to hear the Cuinneaga´in, decided on his own that there is most up to date view of the Minister and the money to be made from the Irish language, Department. I have concerns about the strategy, although that may not have been his primary as I have outlined, and urge this be addressed as motivation. From knowing him I believe his soon as possible. There is an old Irish saying — primary motivation was to help revive the langu- Nı´l neart gan cur le che´ile, there is no real age and keep it alive in the area. Hundreds of strength without co-operating. Are varying politi- thousands of people have entered the doors of cal and interest group approaches damaging the Oideas Gael in Gleann Cholm Cille. It is preservation and promotion of the language? The important to mention that the mother of the spirit of that saying spurs us to ask whether co- leader of Fine Gael, Deputy Kenny, was born in operation and consensus rather than divisive Gleann Cholm Cille. When Deputy Kenny speaks motions are the way to best promote and protect passionately about the Irish language, he is doing our native language. Government, Ministers, so because he has a fondness for it and an Departments, legislators, teachers, students and appreciation of its importance. wider society must work together. It is in that spi- The Irish language is alive and well in Gleann rit that I support the amendment to the motion. Cholm Cille because mna´ tı´ are making money out of it and communicating through it. The Mr. McHugh: Cuirim fa´ilte roimh an Aire. Ta´ people attending Oideas Gael are primarily not lu´ cha´ir ormsa go bhfuil deis agam ceist na from Donegal and many come from all over the Gaeilge a phle´ anseo anocht. Ta´ meas mo´ r agam world. I was at the centre three summers ago and ar an Ghaeilge. Rugadh agus to´ gadh in aice le met people from Japan, North Korea, China and Gaeltacht Ros Goill me´,a´it a bhfuil e´acht mho´ r Europe, including Britain and Northern Ireland. de´anta´ ag an phobal ansin an Ghaeilge a choin- There is a massive influx from Northern Ireland, nea´il beo, a fhorbairt agus a chur chun chinn. where, it is important to note, Irish is not a com- Ta´ comharthaı´ocht agus fo´ graı´ocht le feicea´il i pulsory A level subject. nGaeilge. Ta´ an teanga le cloistea´il nı´os mo´ inniu´ This is what is happening at the level of private na´ mar a bhı´ deich mbliana o´ shin. Ta´ imeachtaı´ enterprise. There are other developments at this ar siu´ l go rialta agus ta´ chu´ rsaı´ Gaeilge ar fa´il ag level, including the setting up of Cafe´ Una on gach leibhe´al, chomh maith le chu´ rsaı´ che´ime sa Kildare Street by a Donegal woman. The Mini- Ghaeilge, faoi la´thair. ster might get a chance to visit it. The proprietor Chaith mise 16 bliana ag foghlaim na Gaeilge prints her menus in Irish and is trying to facilitate ar scoil. Nı´ raibh co´ ras mu´ ineadh na Gaeilge ro´ - Irish speakers in the restaurant. The staff, not all chairdiu´ il ag an am sin agus nı´l mise ach o´ g. of whom are from Donegal, communicate Caithfear amharc ar an cho´ ras oideachais o´ through Irish. This is a case of private enterprise thaobh na Gaeilge de. helping to keep the language alive. This is good I am delighted to be able to say a few words and will continue to happen. as Gaeilge agus as Be´arla. I mentioned what is The Government should be congratulated on happening at grassroots level. I live in Rosguill the supports it has made available to TG4 and to on the border of a Gaeltacht area in Donegal. the Gaelscoil movement. The Acting Chairman Unfortunately, I was not born in the Gaeltacht. has very good friends in Ballyliffin in north If I had been, I would have more muinı´n in terms Inishowen who are native Irish speakers. The of my ability to express myself through Irish. unfortunate point about Inishowen, a landmass There is a lot going on in my region and a com- the size of County Louth, is that it has no Gael- munity development group, an Irish language tacht, yet there are still people who communicate group, runs many courses for the people of the through Irish in Urris, the outskirts of Ballyliffin, area. Much of its work is voluntary and it receives Tulla and other northern parts of the peninsula. some Gaeltacht funding, etc. There is a complete Perhaps we could re-examine this and determine revival of the Irish language because people the level of Irish being used in the area. decided to stop talking about its decline and not The Minister may be aware that there is a to focus on the negativity. I cannot remember the movement in Buncrana pushing very strongly for beautiful word Senator O´ Murchu´ used for nega- a Gaelscoil in the town — the proposal may be on tivity. The Irish language group decided to get the Minister’s desk. It is a voluntary movement together and run certificate courses at local level. involving parents and is in its initial stages. We 559 Irish Language: 5 April 2006. Motion 560

[Mr. McHugh.] bhfuileadar, agus an Seanado´ ir de Bu´ rca a ndu´ irt should acknowledge that there are people on the go raibh se´, maca´nta ag lorg leasaithe teanga. Ta´ peninsula who want to send their children to an siu´ l agam, i ndeireadh na da´ile, nach ndeanfaı´ all-Irish school. deilt san Teach, nach mbeidh vo´ ta´il ann. Is ion- There should not be a political debate or toing tach go bhfuil an dı´ospo´ ireacht againn. Dı´os- and froing regarding the Irish language. We are po´ ireacht fu´ innteach ata´ ann. Nach fe´idir linn all singing from the same hymn sheet and want ansin glacadh leis an phrionsabal go bhfuilimid to preserve the language. I got caught in the le´ir ar son na Gaeilge agus go dteastaı´onn uainn middle of a debate over signposts that turned into go le´ir slı´ a fha´il amach chun an teanga a chur a liathro´ id polaitiu´ la, which is scandalous. A per- chun tosaigh, agus a iarraigh le che´ile ar an Aire son who wants to contribute to the debate on the pe´ rud is fe´idir leı´ a dhe´anamh chun sin a chur Irish language should not be prevented from i bhfeidhm? doing so because he or she cannot speak it. Sign- Ta´im cinnte gur maith an rud tosnu´ ins na bun- posts are very important to some people because scoileanna le chomhra´ na Gaeilge agus gan tra´cht they allude to a place’s history and connect it to ar aon rud eile, agus ba mho´ r an feabhas ma´s the land and generations past. However, when fe´idir linn daoine le leanaı´ a mhealladh teacht debating this issue, we must be positive and allow isteach as an mbunscoile agus cumas caidreamh people to contribute. agus comarsa´ide acu i nGaeilge simplı´. Ins na sco- Six years ago at a conference in Vienna I met ileanna idirmheanach freisin, is fearr an be´im a an interpreter from Liverpool who could speak chuir ar chomhra´.Nı´ chuirim mo´ ra´n muinı´n sna 14 different languages. I never met a man more staitisticı´ ata´ san Daona´ireamh mar is fe´idir le passionate about the Irish language. He asked daoine a ra´ go bhfuil ca´int na Gaeilge acu nuair why we are not all speaking it and said that, of nach bhfuil ach cu´ pla focal, agus chı´m a leithe´id his 14 languages, it is the most beautiful in which che´anna sa Tuaisceart. Ta´ gne´ amha´in i gceist, go he has communicated. He wondered why we were dteaspa´ineann se´, mar a du´ irt an Leas-Chathaoir- not developing a gra´ for it and pushing the ligh, go bhfuil an Gaeilge faiseanta i ndeireadh agenda in this regard. He referred to the way in na da´ile. which the language was taught by rote learning, Is mo´ r rud e´ go bhfuil Gaelscoil i ngach chon- whereby students must learn chunks and chunks tae anois agus b’fhe´idir gur fiu´ du´ inn fe´achaint ar of depressing poems. Although they may be part cad e´ an recipe ata´ acu. Cad is fe´idir leo a dhe´an- of our history, why is there not a choice of more amh nach fe´idir a dhe´anamh sna scoileanna eile? lively material? I learned Caislea´nO´ ir inside out Ta´ gne´ amha´in i gceist: ta´ du´ thracht ag na tuismi- by rote. It is about a man who left a poor woman theoirı´ agus ta´ ceangailt ag na tuismitheoirı´.Ta´ waiting for him up in Clocha´n Liath. She had to spend all her life waiting for him when he went nı´os mo´ aithne agam ar na Gaelscoileanna sa away to earn his money and when he came back Tuaisceart agus ta´ eolas acu orm freisin, agus ta´ and saw her he thought she looked too old and sin ann i gco´ naı´. fecked off again — sorry for my language. This is Ta´ easpa te´acsleabhar tre´ Gaeilge sa Tuaisceart depressing stuff and the kind of stuff we are offer- freisin. Nı´lnate´acsleabhar Gaeilge acu agus ta´ ing to our students in secondary school. Let us siad ag brath ar an Roinn sa Deisceart na te´acsle- liven it up. abhar a chuir ar fa´il do´ ibh. Ba mho´ r rud e´ a leit- There are some beautiful words in the he´ad a dhe´anamh. language. Chaithfidh an Aire suim na daoine o´ ga sa Gaeilge a spreagadh agus a chothu´ i dtreo is go Acting Chairman (Labhra´sO´ Murchu´ ): Ido bhfuil se´ saigheas “hip”, mar a deirfea´. B’fhe´idir not like interrupting the Senator. He is making a go bhfuil tracht ar Peig Sayers agus is mo´ ran great contribution but he has exceeded his time. trua. Bhı´ aithne agam ar Peig agus an mheas agam uirthi, but it is hard going for the ordinary Mr. McHugh: I spent 16 years trying to learn kid. Years ago I remember thinking that if we the language and not one teacher told us about could only encourage the Censorship Board to the beauty of the words. Senators O´ Murchu´ and ban a book in Irish the language would be revived O’Toole and others know about it when speaking in the morning. Nı´lim a ra´ gur cho´ ir don Aire them. The have a love of the language, but leabhair ga´irsiu´ ile a chur amach ach b’fhe´idir gur nobody ever teaches pupils to foster such a love fearr go mbe´idı´snı´os co´ ngaraı´ do na leabhair, na or informs them of the significance of the words te´acseanna agus na nu´ achta´in a le´ann an aois o´ g and their attachment to the past. We should be ila´thair na h-uaire. focusing on this. Ba´ mhaith liom freisin cabhru´ le leas-ru´ in a tSeanado´ ir O´ Tuathail mar gheall ar Baile Mr. M. Hayes: Chuirim fa´ilte roimh an Aire Bhu´ irne. Is cuimhin liom dul ar chuirt go mBaile anseo. Is mo´ r an trua go bhfuilimid ag de´anamh Bhu´ irne 60 blian o´ shin nuair a bhı´ chairde agam ceist poilitı´ochta as seo ar chor ar bith mar sa chola´iste ullmhu´ cha´in ag de´anamh an teastais breathaimse go bhfuilimid go le´ir sa tSeanad ar timire Gaeilge, agus ionad iontach ata´ ann. Ta´ an dtaobh che´anna ar son na Gaeilge. Ghlacaim ionad no´ institiu´ id de saghas e´igin ag teasta´il chun go bhfuil na Seanado´ irı´ a chuir sı´os an ru´ in go na te´acsleabhair a dhe´anamh. 561 Irish Language: 5 April 2006. Motion 562

Molaim freisin Teilifı´s na Gaeilge. Tugann se´ very few people — perhaps the only one — in sa´samh mo´ r domsa nuair a chı´m go gcaithfidh mo this House to speak against that Bill. I opposed chomharsanna Aontachto´ irı´,ma´sa´il leo Ulster a that Bill not because I was against the Irish langu- d’fheisceint ag imirt sa Celtic League, na cluichı´ age, but because I am in favour of it. I argued a fha´il ar TG4, agus ta´ leanu´ int maith go leor air then, and I still believe now, that the Bill diverted sa Tuaisceart. Taispea´nann sin freisin gur fe´idir money and attention to the wrong place. The na h-uirlisı´ nua-aoiseacha leictreonacha a chuir ar attention and the money should be directed to fa´il ins na scoileanna agus ins na institiu´ id i mBa- the area addressed by the motion and Senator ile Bhu´ irne. O’Toole’s amendment, which I support, and that I suggest that the schools are equipped for is the teaching of the language in our schools. dealing with the matter. It is no longer necessary In the debate on the Official Languages Bill, I to think of everything in terms of written texts. asked given that our young people learn Irish CDs and websites exist and if the schools were from their first day at school, why can so few equipped and if we had a central institute produc- people speak it? Why do so few adults wish to ing them, we could have a very exciting mix. speak Irish in their daily lives? How do we fail Youngsters now operate through cell phones, our children and the citizens of the nation and iPods, etc., and that is the market we should what must we do to succeed in engendering in pursue. them a love for the language? On that occasion I hope that at the end of the day we can agree I drew attention to the massive State apparatus that we had a good debate and that a vote is not devoted to the teaching of Irish, which went back needed. Both the motion and the amendment, in to the 1920s. In spite of that apparatus, the vast a sense, could be withdrawn. in order to dispose majority of young people do not learn the langu- of his amendment, it would help if the Minister age effectively. A large number of young people could give an assurance to Senator O’Toole that leaving school do so not just with a lack of she would consider what help could be given to enthusiasm for the language but also with a nega- Baile Bhu´ irne. Is maith an rud go raibh an dı´os- tive attitude to it. The current system of teaching po´ ireacht againn agus molaim an obair. Irish has failed miserably to engage the majority of the population. Mr. Quinn: Fa´iltı´m roimh an Aire. What an Why have we failed so badly? It is not that Irish interesting debate we have had so far and I am is a particularly difficult language to learn and it sure it will get more interesting. What a joy it is certainly not that we have failed to devote is to hear Senator Maurice Hayes talking about enough time or resources to the teaching of Irish. knowing Peig Sayers. It sounds like somebody There must be some other reason for this monu- who knew Napoleon as it seems so long ago. I mental failure to achieve the objectives we set also enjoyed listening to Senator McHugh to an down for ourselves, but which we have not extent. He used a term that reminded me of reached. How can we ensure that we will achieve something when he talked about the significance what we are setting out to do? I argued then of the Irish language. many of the same points that are being revisited At an early age when I was in my late 20s, I in this debate. I said that we would be far better believe I was the only person who won a case at off investing in research to find out what we were the Supreme Court, which found certain legis- doing wrong in the teaching of Irish in our lation to be unconstitutional as it discriminated schools than spending vast sums of money on on the grounds of religion. I was prosecuted for translating documents into Irish that nobody selling meat and I found that it excluded meat would read. where the animal had been killed under the Jew- I got the Competition Authority report — two ish ritual method. I relate the story because I big, thick and glossy documents — today. I do not remember two things from what I learnt about know how long it takes to translate such docu- law at university — that it was not possible to ments into Irish, or the length of the delays which discriminate on the grounds of religion and that arise for that reason. I suggest that time has pro- the Irish language took precedence over the ved me right because the costs of implementing English language in case of doubt. The argument the Official Languages Act 2003 have caused a used against me in the Supreme Court was that national outcry. That gives me no pleasure one could not discriminate in favour of somebody because it has helped to bring the Irish language as one discriminated against somebody. However, further into disrepute. I welcome one con- as the Irish word used in the Constitution was sequence of the passing of the Act, however. The idirdhealu´ , to distinguish between not against, I inaugural annual report of the Office of An won the case on that basis. I mention this as it Coimisine´ir Teanga, published on 14 March shows the significance of the Irish language. 2005, states: I welcome the debate and I agree entirely with Senator Maurice Hayes. I do not believe we need It is estimated that almost 1,500 hours of tui- votes tonight as everybody is on the one side. The tion in the Irish language is provided to school debate echoes what I said some years ago when pupils over a period of 13 years, from their first we debated the Official Languages Bill in this day at primary school to the end of secondary House. I remind Members that I was one of the level. This clearly raises the question: is the 563 Irish Language: 5 April 2006. Motion 564

[Mr. Quinn.] Is e´ sin an fa´th go bhfuil fadhb againn o´ thaobh State getting value for money from this invest- vo´ ta´il no´ aon rud eile anseo inniu. ment, if it is true that so many are going Aithnı´mid go le´ir an ta´bhacht a bhaineann leis through the educational system without achiev- an Ghaeilge i sochaı´ na tı´re seo. Ta´ gra´ againn go ing a reasonable command of the language — le´ir don teanga Ghaelach mar is cuid da´r stair even in the case of students who succeed in get- agus da´r gcultu´ rfe´in ı´.Maradu´ irt an Seanado´ ir ting a high grade in Irish in their final examin- McHugh, is teanga a´lainn ı´, le focail agus cu´ lra ations? I believe that there is an urgent need a´lainn. Tugann na focail sa teanga Ghaeilge i for a comprehensive and impartial review of bhfad nı´os mo´ eolais du´ inn na focail sa teanga every aspect of the learning and teaching of Bhe´arla. Ma´ fhe´achaimid ar logainmneacha, no´ Irish in the educational system, so as to ensure placenames, ar fud na tı´re ta´ se´ soile´ir nach thu- that the continuous and substantial State gann an Be´arla aon eolas du´ inn. Nuair a fhe´achai- investment in Irish will ensure that students, mid ar an Ghaeilge, tuigimid go maith an a´it ina having spent 13 years learning the language, bhfuilimid — an cu´ lra agus an stair a bhaineann acquire a reasonable fluency or command of leis. the language by the time they complete their schooling. This is essential if we are serious Mr. U. Burke: Daingean, mar shampla. about promoting Irish in every aspect of national life, including public administration. Ms M. Hanafin: No. What more is there to say? We do not have an Mr. Cummins: Daingean Uı´ Chu´ is. infinite amount of time to continue to dither about this issue. Ms M. Hanafin: An rud a dhe´anaim le “Dain- The case for the language becomes weaker and gean” na´ “Daingean Uı´ Chu´ is” a ghlaoch air, mar the voices speaking against it become stronger as is e´ sin an te´arma ceart. further generations of young people emerge from school unable to speak Irish. We are fortunate Mr. U. Burke: Abair e´ sin leis an Aire, an that enough goodwill towards the language Teachta O´ Cuı´v. remains to enable us to mount a final rescue operation. That is the purpose of the motion Ms M. Hanafin: Deirim “Du´ rlas E´ ile”, in ionad before the House and the two amendments to it. “Du´ rlas”, agus “Aonach Urmhumhan” in ionad We need to make a final effort to undo the “Aonach”. Nı´ maith liom an caoi ina bhfuil gach damage we have been making since the found- e´inne ag gearradh na logainmneacha siar. Ba ation of the State. If we do not take this oppor- cho´ ir an te´arma iomla´nau´ sa´id. Ma´ ta´imid chun tunity to face reality, the time may soon have a bheith cinnte go dtuigimid agus go gcreidimid passed when it is possible to do anything about sa Ghaeilge, nı´ cheart du´ inn mar sochaı´ agus go it. That day may be closer than many of us think. ha´irithe mar cheannairı´ na tı´re seo agus mar pho- Senator O’Toole spoke about the proposed laiteoirı´ aon pholasaı´ a chuir i bhfeidhm a loitfidh facility at Baile Bhu´ irne. I am not sure he is cor- no´ a maro´ idh an Ghaeilge. Ag an am ce´anna, rect when he suggests it has not been supported aithnı´m go bhfuil du´ shla´nla´idir os a´r gcomhair. because it is regarded as being an awful long way Ta´ du´ shla´nla´idir os comhair mu´ inteoirı´,co´ ras ´ from Baile Atha Cliath. Perhaps there is some oideachais agus sochaı´ na tı´re seo go ghineara´lta. truth in the suggestion and perhaps there is not. It rests on the Government and on all leaders to The Minister for Education and Science can do show leadership in respect of the Irish language. something about it. I am always the first to say that the school cannot solve every problem in society, but for the most Minister for Education and Science (Ms M. part the school is the first and only place where Hanafin): Ba mhaith liom mo bhuı´ochas a gabha´il children learn Irish. Our schools, particularly our leis na Seanado´ irı´ uilig as ucht an dı´ospo´ ireacht primary schools, have a particular obligation to seo a bheith ar siu´ l againn inniu. Tuigim go maith ensure that the teaching of the language is excit- go bhfuil suim da´irı´re ag na Seanado´ irı´ ar fad sa ing and interesting for our children. Teach seo sa Ghaeilge, mar go bhfuil dı´ospo´ ire- Labhraı´mid i gco´ naı´ faoi na gaelscoileanna. We acht la´idir ar siu´ l. Ta´ tuairimı´ maithe acu faoin say how exciting it is that there is now a gaelscoil dteanga, mar ata´ acu i leith cu´ rsaı´ oideachais go in every county, which is a very positive develop- ghineara´lta. Is trua e´ gur a´bhar polaitiu´ il ata´ idir ment. Bhı´ tra´th ann nuair ba ghaelscoil ı´ gach la´imhe againn anseo, ach a´bhar polaitiu´ il a scoil — the Irish language was a central part of bheidh ann fad is ata´ polasaithe Fhine Gael mar every school. The living instructions and orders gheall ar an Ghaeilge e´igeanteach sna scoileanna in playgrounds and during activities were given ag an bpa´irtı´ sin. Is trua e´ sin mar nı´ do´ igh liom through Irish. Ordinary schools were gaelscoile- go dtuigeann Fine Gael an toradh a bheidh ar a anna as much as the specific gaelscoileanna are gcuid bpolasaithe. Is do´ igh liom go bhfuil now, but that has been lost from our schools. easaontas idir an me´id a deireann siad, an me´id a Faraoir, the teaching of Irish is being confined to cheapann siad agus an me´id a thuigeann siad o´ 40 minutes per day. If we can extend it through- thaobh na Ghaeilge, agus na polasaithe ata´ acu. out our schools as a living language, our children 565 Irish Language: 5 April 2006. Motion 566 will realise that it is a teanga beo. Ta´ se´ deacair e´ ency of the former borough of Kingstown than in sin a dhe´anamh nuair nach bhfuil muintir na tı´re a great many Gaeltacht areas around the country. seo a´ labhairt, nı´ amha´in mar che´ad teanga ach With Gaelscoileanna, Cola´iste Eoin, Cola´iste mar theaga ar bith. It is very difficult for a school I´osaga´in, Scoil Lorca´in, Gaelscoil Ballybrack, la´r- to do it on its own. We face a particular challenge ionad Comhaltas Ceolteo´ irı´ E´ ireann, daoine ag in that regard. That is why the measures which labhairt Gaeilge agus ag de´anamh ceol, agus have been taken throughout our communities spiorad Gaelach timpeall na h-a´ite. It is to be and in society generally are so important. found in a place where one would not expect, in Chuala me´ Seanado´ irı´ ag caint mar gheall ar which I suspect it is a good deal stronger than an tacaı´ocht breise ata´ tugtha do TG4, which is a in traditional areas. Instead of getting depressed hugely popular television station that makes about the decline of the Gaeltacht, we should try programmes in an imaginative manner. I do not to determine how strong Irish is in other areas. just refer to the fact that TG4 broadcasts football The growth of the Gaelscoileanna is adding to matches and old western films. Ta´ me´ ag caint that, mar ta´ na tuismitheoirı´ ag dul amach agus ag mar gheall ar an me´id daoine a bhı´onn ag fe´a- foghlaim Gaeilge, freisin, mar ta´ siad ag iarraidh chaint ar “Mo Laethanta Saoire”, mar shampla, cabhru´ a thabhairt lena bpa´istı´ fe´in. That is cla´r a rinne me´ fhe´in. That programme brings encouraging a whole new generation of people to people back to the places where they went on return to Irish classes to learn. their holidays as children, which is something to I accept, however, it is a disgrace that after which the whole country can relate. It took TG4 learning Irish for 13 or 14 years, children leave to come up with and pursue such a simple idea. school not being able to speak it. Is iar-mu´ inteoir Ta´ daoine o´ ga na tı´re seo ag fe´achaint ar daoine Gaeilge me´ fe´in. I spent 17 years teaching Irish ar no´ s Hector O´ hEochaga´in agus Sı´le Seoige. up to honours leaving certificate level. Even my Caithfidh me´ a adhmha´il that they are making the best students cannot speak Irish today, largely Irish language i bhfad nı´os gne´asaı´ na´ mar a bhı´. because they have not the opportunity in society. Taitnı´onn na daoine u´ d le daoine o´ ga. Long live I spent much of the time doing the spoken langu- Hector O´ hEochaga´in and Sı´le Seoige because age, mar creidim go la´idir ins an teanga — leis they are promoting Irish in modern Ireland in a na dı´ospo´ ireachtaı´, dra´maı´ocht agus gach rud a bhaineann leis. Rinne me´ m’iarracht agus mo modern and living context. chuid chun Gaeilge taitneamhach a mhu´ nu´ . For- The official recognition of the Irish language at tunately, the curriculum has changed. The new EU level was a major achievement for Ireland curriculum is very exciting, particular at primary and for the language, but what good will it do if level. Feicim an dul chun cinn ata´ a´ dhe´anamh ins we do not support the language at home? We will na scoileanna nuair a bhı´m ag dul timpeall. In the face major challenges in providing interpreters last year or so I have visited more than 200 and translators on foot of that decision. Nı´l aon schools in every country in Ireland and I can see maitheas ann a bheith ag caint faoi sin muna the dul chun cinn ata´ a´ dhe´anamh leis an gcura- bhfuil an Ghaeilge ag daoine go la´idir nuair a clam nua. That places much more emphasis on fha´gann siad an scoil. It all comes back to the the spoken language. It is following through to extent to which we can strengthen the Irish langu- some degree to the junior certificate, with a new age in our schools and support it in society, syllabus as regards literature, etc. through the Official Languages Act 2003 and, However, I am convinced of the need for more particularly, by increasing an meas a bhı´onn greater emphasis in the exams structure on oral ag daoine don teanga. The reactions of students Irish, because it is only when more marks are to the language are dictated not only by what given for the scru´ du´ be´al ag an ard-teist, that happens in schools but also by what happens in teachers will change their methods of teaching society generally. That is why all those wider and students their attitude to the language. I have issues are very important. asked the NCCA as a matter of priority to revert Senator Maurice Hayes said he does not have to me with proposals in this regard. I appreciate too much regard for what people say in response it is looking at the whole senior cycle, but for me to questions asked in the daona´ireamh. I presume this is an absolute priority. As Aire Oideachais that people adopted the same attitude in the last agus Eolaı´ochta, I would love to be in a position census, when answering the question about the to be able to progress the situation. I should love amount of Irish they use, as they did when to see 50% of the marks in leaving certificate answering the same question in the previous cen- Irish being allocated to oral Irish. Nı´ sı´lim go sus. The number of people who classified them- bhfuil na deacraı´ochtaı´ sı´os may dhe´antar sin, selves as Irish speakers increased by 140,000 at mar nı´ fhe´adfa´ dı´reach e´ sin a thosnu´ gan scru´ daı´ the last census. It will be interesting to see cad a a chur ar siu´ l ag ranganna no´ blianta eile. bheidh daoine a´ ra´ mar gheall ar an Ghaeilge in However, it is the single most positive thing that this year’s census. Is do´ igh liom go bhfuil meath may be done to improve the spoken language. ag teacht ar an nGaeltacht agus go bhfuil borradh The new syllabus, as has been recognised, is agus fa´s ag teacht ar an me´id daoine ata´ ag lab- much more exciting. There are lovely novels now, hairt an Ghaeilge in a´iteanna eile. I am quite for example Du´ nmharu´ ar an Dart or Murder on satisfied that there is more Irish in my constitu- the Dart, a great lively book very suitable for 567 Irish Language: 5 April 2006. Motion 568

[Ms M. Hanafin.] Chaithfhimid iad sin a chur ar fa´il agus na h-a´ise- using with junior certificate students. Film is anna agus na hacmhainnı´ do mu´ inteoirı´ freisin. being used in the curriculum. All of this has The second level support service provides a already been incorporated, so we are well on the modular course on Irish through education way towards making those changes and recog- centres, etc., and the NCCA is looking at nising the importance of the language. That is resource material in that regard. It is crucial, as why I am genuinely concerned at the policy of more and more students become adept at com- Fine Gael, as outlined in this motion and by the puters, that they should have access to this type party leader, of removing compulsory Irish in the of information as well. leaving certificate. As regards na te´acsleabhair ins na Gaelscoile- In a curriculum as broad as ours, students do anna, ta´ dul chun cinn a´ dhe´anamh agus le na h- seven subjects for the leaving certificate and may a´iseanna a chur ar fa´il. Ta´ me´adu´ tagtha are an even be taking eight. There is room for Irish, for me´id airgid a ta´imid ag cur ar fa´il. With that the spoken language, literature and for learning. increase in money we are getting new materials It is completely different for A level students, called Se´idea´nSı´, a wonderful series. It is now in who may be doing two or even three subjects. place for the infants, the senior infants and the The UK is restricting at a much earlier age. They first class and they are preparing currently for the have to, because of the nature of their systems. It second class as well. It is not just a question of is interesting that they are trying to broaden the books. There are puppets, posters, picture cards, system now. However, because of the nature of compact discs and handbooks and the method- the system, they have to confine matters and they ology being used is exciting. There are card have to choose. We are offering seven subjects. games so that children may enjoy the teaching of Surely there is room there for Irish. If the com- the language. All of that is being incorporated pulsory Irish is removed, students will not do it and will be rolled out for the whole 8-year cycle. for the leaving certificate or want to do it for the Obviously, I should like this to happen more junior certificate and it will be lost, at primary speedily. We are only working towards it at school level. I am as convinced of that as of any- present. thing. I am satisfied that there is no tally between Ta´ an Chomhairle um Oideachas Gaeltachta what Fine Gael is saying and what is its policy. I agus Gaelscolaı´ochta ag obair sin, working on the do not believe that Deputy Kenny wants to see provision of textbooks, aids etc. It has provided the end of the Irish language, nor do I believe various types of resources which are invaluable that Senator Ulick Burke or anybody else wants for both first and second level. Only recently at to see it. Colaiste Eoin I launched na h-a´iseanna for the teaching of science to junior certificate students Mr. U. Burke: The Minister should avoid emot- with all the experiments included. It is a very ive language. That is total misrepresentation. technical language. The particular resources were needed for science with all the experiments and Mr. Cummins: It is total misrepresentation. these are now available and will be of great benefit to the teachers. I recognise nach bhfuil Ms Hanafin: I am giving the House my view on siad go le´ir le fa´il agus nach bhfuil siad le fa´il in what will happen. The policy they are pro- am, ach ta´ dul chun cinn a´ dhe´anamh ar sin. pounding is to remove the compulsory element The question of entry to primary school of Irish for the leaving certificate. It will single- teacher training college comes up for debate handedly sound the death-knell of the Irish lang- quite often because it is specified that the appli- uage, and I am not being political, but am speak- cant has to have a minimum of a grade C in ing from concern. higher level in leaving certificate Irish. People say It is interesting that the Labour Party in the that it is prohibitive and is blocking some people Da´il does not support this policy. Neither does from becoming teachers. It is absolutely essential the Green Party. I shall be interested to see what that primary school teachers have a reasonable attitude is taken in this House today. If standard of Irish. If they do not, they cannot implemented, the policy being put forward in this teach it. I know the entry requirement is higher motion will have enormous knock-on effects. I for Irish than for English or mathematics. I would regret it shows such a lack of understanding of seriously consider increasing the entry require- the manner in which the education system works ment for English, rather than downgrading the and the importance of the language as a core part entry requirement for Irish. One does not have to of the curriculum. I genuinely believe it is not have honours English in the leaving certificate to what Fine Gael Members want as regards the lan- get into primary school teaching, but one does guage. As long as we offer a broad curriculum, as have to have honours Irish. Surely that begs the will always be my intention, then I will insist that question as to whether honours should be the compulsory element continues. required for English as well, as this is crucially Recognising that, we must of course ensure important. that we adapt in the way we do things. Bhı´ an Maidir le mu´ inteoirı´ a mbı´onn ag tre´ana´il i Sas- tSeanado´ ir Maurice Hayes ag caint mar gheall ar ana agus a´iteanna eile, they have to do the Scru´ du´ technology agus CDs, agus ta´ an ceart aige. Ca´ilı´ochta sa Gaeilge, SCG. Again, this is a 569 Irish Language: 5 April 2006. Motion 570 system that has been recently reviewed and con- I believe everybody in the Seanad is genuinely tains a much more comprehensive language sylla- interested in the Irish language. I do not question bus. There is a new literature textbook, Leoithne it but I would ask that the policies would follow Gaeilge, and courses are being provided for the interest and that the policies of any party in teachers doing this course to ensure they can pass this House in regard to the Irish language would more speedily, so that when they are in the be such as to support and strengthen it, not to schools they can implement a course they know weaken it which is the one thing that would hap- and understand. This has increased the success pen as a result of the removal of compulsory Irish rates for the teachers as well. for the leaving certificate. Bhı´ an tSeanado´ ir McHugh ag caint mar gheall ar third level programmes and Magee. Again, Mr. Cummins: That is nonsense. there have been great advances in the number of third level course being provided, particularly in Ms Hanafin: I hope that Fine Gael never gets Acadamh na hOllscolaı´ochta Gaeilge, NUI the opportunity to implement it. Galway, which offers a great number of courses Mr. U. Burke: There is no basis to that and has three centres in the Gaeltacht, in Carna, statement. Carraroe and Gweedore. There is also Dublin City University, which established Fiontar in 1993 Ms Hanafin: Go raibh maith agat. and offers a range of courses. It is very encouraging that students who are Mr. Cummins: Ba mhaith liom fı´or fa´ilte a perhaps going to the Gaelscoileanna gur fe´idir leo ghabha´il don Aire. I wish to share time with leanu´ int ar aghaidh agus a chuid gcu´ rsaı´ a dhe´an- Senator Browne. amh trı´ mhea´n na Gaeilge freisin. Summer courses are hugely popular. Bhı´ an Seanado´ ir An Cathaoirleach: Is that agreed? Agreed. Maurice Hayes ag caint mar gheall ar bheith in Baile Bhu´ irne. Ta´ fhios agam gur chaith se´ am sa Mr. Cummins: I found myself agreeing with Rinn freisin. He and my father spent their child- much of what the Minister said but she totally hood in Ring together. I think Senator Hayes’s misrepresented the meaning of the Fine Gael Irish is probably slightly better than my father’s. policies. I do not think she can substantiate any- That kind of support and encouragement that thing she has said about the removal of compul- being in the Gaeltacht area gives to young people sion in the teaching of the Irish language leading is hugely important. Every year about 25,000 to the demise of the language. It is nonsense. students participate in cursaı´ samhraidh insan Recently I met a friend of mine who is a fluent Gaeltacht. Sin an fa´th go bhfuil an Gaeltacht an Irish speaker. He has a great love of Irish and has tha´bhachtach. been involved in the Irish language movement for Ta´ obair idir la´imhe ach mar a du´ irt me´,nı´ fe´i- as long as I know him. When I saw him coming dir leis na scoileanna gach rud a dhe´anamh, ach towards me I expected an ear bashing from him because of our policy on removing compulsion in is fe´idir leis an scoil fheabhas a chur ar an sce´al. the teaching of leaving certificate Irish. I was ple- The teaching of Irish is hugely important. It gen- asantly surprised to hear him say that it was about uinely is of concern. The Harris report highlights time someone generated a decent debate on the this. The Harris report, which is about the teach- Irish language, and that he believed that compul- ing of Irish, is gone for translation agus ta´imid fo´ s sion as a tool to revive the Irish language had ag feitheamh leis agus sin cheann leis na fa´thanna failed miserably. He was also critical of friends of nach feidir liom e´ a fhoilsiu´ . It is ironic that a his who wanted to retain the status quo, knowing report about the Irish language has to be trans- full well that the current system had failed the lated into Irish before we can actually publish it. young — and not so young — in the past. The report is quite critical of the Irish language My interest in the subject was awakened by the and the teaching of Irish. enthusiasm of this man who relished the prospect Senator Quinn has highlighted the importance of a debate on how to nurture and revive the Irish of the Irish language in the Constitution, its language. While I am in no way fluent in speaking importance for us as a nation in terms of our Irish I understand it and enjoy hearing the langu- identity, and its importance for us now in Europe. age being spoken. I do not believe one is any less For all these reasons Irish is important in schools. Irish by not being able to speak the Irish language The policies we adopt in regard to the Irish langu- but I admire people who can speak it fluently and age in our schools is what will ensure its future. who do not make people feel inferior or less Irish Ba mhaith liom a ra´ leis an Seanado´ ir O’Toole if they cannot speak it. freisin mar gheall ar Bhaile Bhu´ irne. I am actively The Gaelscoileanna are doing a wonderful job working on this matter and I have taken advice and I salute them for the work they are doing. from different groups. I accept that a commit- However, the facts of the matter are that a large ment was given to it but I want to make sure that percentage of young people leave school without something definite and positive happens in Baile any real command of the Irish language. The Bhu´ irne and that it is not just a concept. I am very Minister has agreed with this point. Only three anxious to progress that as quickly as possible. out of ten students attempt the higher level paper 571 Irish Language: 5 April 2006. Motion 572

[Mr. Cummins.] mbeadh an Ghaeilge deonach tar e´is an teastas in the leaving certificate and, worse still, thou- soisearach. sands of students do not even turn up for the exam each year. There is no doubt that we need Ms Hanafin: Ce´n post a raibh ag an Seanado´ ir? reform in the approach to the teaching of the Irish language. I believe the vast majority of Mr. Browne: Nı´ du´ irt ach cheann amha´in de na people who are active in the promotion of the mu´ inteoirı´ aon rud faoi ba´s an teanga. Freisin, language believe this to be the case also. du´ irt siad gur mheasadar na´r mhaith e´ an rud an We must be willing to embrace change and to Ghaeilge a bheith e´igeantach go dtı´ leibhe´al na utilise the best available modern technology and ha´rdteiste. Is soile´ir go bhfuil fiminteach ann mai- teaching methods for the Irish language. We must dir leis an nGaeilge. Faoı´ la´thair, nı´l scru´ du´ be´al also develop a specialised language support corps triail sa teastas soisearach. Is e´ mo thuairim go to help individual primary schools that have part- gcaithimid e´ seo a athru´ gan mhoill. Nı´ fe´idir leis icular difficulty with the teaching of Irish. More na daltaı´ ata´ ag freastal ar Gaelscoileanna te´ics importantly, we must concentrate on immersion leabhair a fha´il trı´ mhea´n na Gaeilge. in the Irish language for new and trainee B’fhe´idir nach bhfuil an cheart ag an Teachta teachers. Reference has been made to teachers Enda Kenny maidir leis an Gaeilge, ach ar a and trainee teachers spending more time in the laghad ta´ beagnach gach duine ag caint faoi mu´ i- Gaeltacht refreshing and reviving their grasp of neadh na Gaeilge agus ar conas go mbeadh daltaı´ the language. a´balta an teanga a labhairt agus a usa´id ar scoil Above all, we must have a radical overhaul and agus ina saol fe´in. Is rud maith e´ i mo thuairim. change to focus on the teaching of Irish as a living language. A number of speakers have referred to Mr. Kitt: Ba mhaith liom mo am a roinnt leis this matter. We need a curriculum that is loaded an Seanado´ ir White. with topics that are modern, relevant and, above all, useful. How many times do we hear young An Cathaoirleach: Is that agreed? Agreed. people say, “What good is Irish? How useful will it be to me when I leave school?” I hear it in my Mr. Kitt: Ba mhaith liom fa´ilte a cur roimh an own house. Communicating in Irish must be seen Aire agus fa´ilte leis an diospoireacht seo agus an as cool. leasu´ a cuideamh. Ta´ se´ ra´ite anseo go bhfuil The Minister referred to Hector and Sı´le and aitheantas o´ Comhphobal an Europ don teanga Gaelach agus ı´ Bhunreacht na hE´ ireann. all the rest of them. The teaching of Irish cannot Ta´chaidh ar freasin bunreathas le haghaidh TG4 be boring and dull, which it is in many cases at and Raidio´ na Gaeltachta. Ba mhaith liomsa mol- present. That is why I believe there should be a adh freisin leis an Teachta Da´la, Michael D. greater emphasis on the spoken language. There Higgins, a chur TG4 ar bun. Sin an beim ata´ ar should be an oral component at junior certificate labhairt na Gaeilge agus aontaoim leis an Seana- level and this must be introduced sooner rather do´ ir de Burca mar gheall ar sin. Ta´ gaelscoileanna than later. i gach condae and gaelscoil nua i mBeal A´ tha an Fine Gael believes that after the junior certifi- Slua mar is eol don Seanado´ ir de Burca. cate all students should have a choice between Ta´ suim agamsa sa Gaeilge labharta. Nuair a two subjects. One subject would be based on bhı´ me´ mar abhar muinteoira ag freastail i gCola´i- communication in Irish and 50% of the marks ste Pha´draig, Drumcondra, bhı´ orm trı´ sheachtain would be devoted to spoken Irish with the rest of a caitheamh sa Gaeltacht. Ta´ na h-abhair muin- the curriculum focusing on useful and applicable teoirı´ le blianta ag dul dtı´ an Gaeltacht agus is reading and writing tasks in Irish. The second maith an rud e´ sin. Mar a duirt an Aire, ta´ ala´n Irish subject on the curriculum would focus on daoine o´ ga ag dul go dtı´ an Gaeltacht. literature and heritage for those with a deeper The question of the living language is knowledge of and competence in the language. I important and integration was always part of the have a great deal more to say but I am aware my primary school curriculum and continues to be in time has run out. the new curriculum. Senator O´ Murchu´ hit the nail on the head when he referred to easpa Mr. Browne: Cuirim fa´ilte roimh an Aire. Ta´ muinı´n, a lack of confidence which might be due a´thas orm labhairt ar an a´bhar ta´bhachtach seo. to bias. I taught the Irish language to children Is rud maith e´ go bhfuil dı´ospo´ ireacht againn sa who were born in the United States and neither Seanad anocht maidir le mu´ ineadh na Gaeilge. they nor their parents had any bias against the Ta´ se´ riachtanach go bhfuil dı´ospo´ ireacht againn language. The same is true for non-national mar ta´ fadbh ann. people who are living in Ireland. The Minister Ar la´mh amha´in, ta´ na Gaelscoileanna ag and I spent a few days in San Francisco some meadu´ ach ar an la´mh eile ta´ ala´ndenada´ltaı´ ag years ago. We were asked by some primary faga´il scoile gan iad aba´lta an Ghaeilge a labhairt. schoolchildren how to say one, two, three, in Rinne me´ suirbhe´ ar mhu´ inteoirı´ Gaeilge i mo Irish. We did our bit for the Gaeilge there. Many Dha´il cheantar agus du´ irt formho´ rnamu´ inteoirı´ mistakes were made and many wrong actions liom go mbeadh caighdea´nnı´os airde ann da´ were taken in the name of the so-called revival of 573 Irish Language: 5 April 2006. Motion 574 the Irish language. For example, teachers were Ms White: Who said it was boring? The paid according to their Irish results and there was Senators made it sound awfully boring resulting pressure from school managers and themselves. inspectors which was regrettable. Senator Ryan spoke very well. I congratulate An Cathaoirleach: Order, please. him because this is the first occasion he has not referred to Mr. Val Hanly of U´ dara´s na Gael- Ms White: I do not find it boring. I compliment tachta. He used to talk about Mr. Hanly having this State for setting up TG4 and Raidio´ na Gael- no Irish. Mr. Val Hanly has improved his Irish. I tachta. TG4 is better than RTE. I learned my have heard him speaking it many times. The same Irish and also the National Anthem from my is true of many leaders in this country. When parents. I did not learn it at school because I former President Mary Robinson went to the knew it before I went to school from sitting in Gaeltacht to learn Irish, the media coverage was Croke Park—— not about her learning Irish but that Galway County Council tarred some roads there before Mr. B. Hayes: Join the dots. she arrived. This is the kind of publicity it receives. An Cathaoirleach: Senator White without I will finish with a story which illustrates the interruption. perceived snobbishness and elitism that is associ- ated with the Irish language although I do not Ms White: I call on all Irish parents of small agree with that perception. Niall To´ ibı´n used to children, such as Senator Hayes’s own little tell a story about the cigire who was always dre- children—— aded when he visited the Gaeltacht to examine students. He was staying in a small hotel and An Cathaoirleach: Address the Chair, please. while having his lunch one day discovered a fly in his soup. The young serving boy was called over. Ms White: Go mo leithsceal, Cathaoirleach. The cigire said, “Brean air sin, brean air sin.” The Senator Hayes has beautiful little children. I am young boy asked, “An cuileog?”. The cigire was trying to make a serious suggestion that all Irish disgusted and replied, “Nı´ hea, an chuileog, with parents of young children should put their chil- a ”h“. It is feminine.” The young boy said, “You dren in front of the cartoons on TG4 as soon as have great eyesight, Sir.” they want to look at cartoons. I guarantee that by the age of four, they would be very good at Irish. Ms White: Ba mhaith liom fa´ilte a chur leis an Mr. B. Hayes: They might also be an fear Aire. Bhı´ me´ ana impressed with her vision for ramhar. the language. ´ ´ ´ ´ Rugadh me ı nDun Dealgan sa bhlian 1944. Bhı An Cathaoirleach: Senator White without me´ ag caint as Gaeilge sa bhaile. Bhı´ me´ ı´ Con- interruption. radh na Gaeilge. Du´ n Dealgan is very national- istic. In 1955 we moved to Newbridge, County Ms White: People put their children in front of Kildare where my father was postmaster. As the cartoons to keep them happy. Let them look postmaster in charge of the postal service he at the cartoons in Irish on TG4. They will learn made valiant efforts for years to have Newbridge their Irish in a non-boring way, Senator changed to Droichead Nua. It saddens me to see Cummins. the sign for Newbridge, County Kildare, on the bypass. He made mega efforts because he spoke An Cathaoirleach: Address the Chair, please. Irish himself. This is my second time asking the Senator. I am appalled at the Fine Gael motion. An bhfuil tu´ ag eisteacht liom, Senator Hayes? Ta´ tu´ Ms White: The little children will be very good at gaire. at the language by four years of age. I draw the attention of the House to M. Chirac Mr. B. Hayes: If the Senator made any sense. and Mrs. Schroeder and how the leaders of other countries are so protective of their language. M. Ms White: This motion shows Fine Gael up in Chirac will not speak in English because he a true light at long last, that the party would even believes he is letting his country down if he think such a thought that young people should speaks in English. He speaks in French all the not have to learn the Irish language. time, no matter to whom he is speaking.

Mr. Cummins: Who made that suggestion? (Interruptions).

Mr. U. Burke: The Senator has a mission. An Cathaoirleach: The Senator’s time has concluded. Ms White: They make it sound awfully boring. Ms White: In 1962 I won a scholarship to Bol- Mr. Cummins: Who is suggesting that? ton Street because I was able to speak Irish for 575 Irish Language: 5 April 2006. Motion 576

[Ms White.] Mr. U. Burke: He does not blatantly expound the Civil Service Commission. That is the reason Irish as some do, like Senator White. The choice I won a scholarship for third level education. I was offered to students that they could take two refer to a CD called “Progress in Irish”. I asked subjects in Irish post junior certificate. the Minister, Deputy O´ Cuı´v, for advice on learn- Ms M. Hanafin: Or neither. ing Irish quickly. He suggested that if I listened to Raidio´ na Gaeltachta every morning for the Mr. U. Burke: The Minister told the House she news I would be speaking fluent Irish within a was a teacher of Irish up to honours leaving cer- year. I advise the Members opposite to buy the tificate standard for 17 years. It was amazing that CD and use it in the car and learn the language. she should have said that she would not under- They should be ashamed of themselves. stand or recognise that when the choice was given, those who would take Irish at the highest An Cathaoirleach: The Senator must conclude. level at leaving certificate would be those who wanted to learn and be involved in Irish. It is a Mr. Cummins: It is lectures like that has the point the Minister conveniently ignored. language like it is. The Minister should re-examine the NCCA’s 2003 report. It clearly indicates that it is important to leave politics aside and provide a Ms White: Pull yourselves up. living language. We can like the language or love it. However, if Government policy in this area is An Cathaoirleach: Senator Ulick Burke to con- developed and implemented, we can have a living clude, please. language. The NCCA report states: We do not have an integrated language cur- Mr. U. Burke: Cuirim fa´ilte leis an Aire. Gab- riculum, but a series of language curricula that haim buı´ochas le gach Seanado´ ir a bhı´ pairteach are largely independent of one another. Argu- sa diospoireacht. ably this leads to an impoverished educational Senator Maurice Hayes made a very important experience; it certainly means that curriculum statement. I was considering asking my colleagues planning is haphazard and piecemeal. The not to call for a vote on this motion. However, the same Irish curricula are taken by the minority Minister has made a wildly political of students who are native speakers of Irish 7 o’clock statement with regard to the langu- and/or attending Irish-medium schools and the age and this motion. The Fine Gael English-medium majority for whom Irish is a proposals were designed to initiate a debate with second language. This situation is linguistically regard to the Irish language. I recall that a mere and educationally indefensible, and until it is three hours after Deputy Kenny made that state- remedied there is little realistic prospect of ment, the Minister came out with a wildly politi- raising the levels of proficiency achieved by the cal motion that would encapsulate the thinking of non-native-speaker majority in Irish. some. I refer the Minister to an MRBI poll on That is the key to the issue, and the sentiment the question of people’s vision on that topic. which Deputy Kenny had in mind. Some 62% of respondents supported the idea. I wish to remind the Minister of two sugges- Ms M. Hanafin: Nobody is arguing with that. tions as to how the situation could be improved. Mr. U. Burke: If we do not tackle the current After 50 years of rhetoric on the Irish language, mindset of the Minister, she will not move for- anybody who misrepresents the facts as they are ward in a positive way and make Irish a living put by a fı´or-Ghaeilgeoir like Deputy Kenny—— language for the many students who want it. Ms Ormonde: Nobody did. Amendment put.

The Seanad divided: Ta´, 27; Nı´l, 16.

Ta´

Brady, Cyprian. Minihan, John. Brennan, Michael. Mooney, Paschal C. Callanan, Peter. Morrissey, Tom. Cox, Margaret. Moylan, Pat. Dardis, John. O´ Murchu´ , Labhra´s. Dooley, Timmy. O’Brien, Francis. Feeney, Geraldine. O’Rourke, Mary. Glynn, Camillus. Ormonde, Ann. Kenneally, Brendan. Phelan, Kieran. Kett, Tony. Scanlon, Eamon. Kitt, Michael P. Walsh, Kate. Leyden, Terry. White, Mary M. Lydon, Donal J. Wilson, Diarmuid. Mansergh, Martin. 577 Diabetes Policy: 5 April 2006. Statements 578

Nı´l

Bannon, James. Finucane, Michael. Bradford, Paul. Hayes, Brian. Browne, Fergal. Henry, Mary. McHugh, Joe. Burke, Ulick. O’Toole, Joe. Coghlan, Paul. Phelan, John. Coonan, Noel. Ross, Shane. Cummins, Maurice. Terry, Sheila. Feighan, Frank.

Tellers: Ta´, Senators Minihan and Moylan; Nı´l, Senators U. Burke and Cummins.

Amendment declared carried. Life expectancy is reduced by approximately 20 years in people with type 1 diabetes and up to ten An Cathaoirleach: As amendment No. 1 has years in people with type 2 diabetes. There are been declared carried, amendment No. 2 cannot approximately 2,000 deaths annually from be moved. diabetes. Diabetes also causes significant morbidity. Amendment No. 2 not moved. Studies have estimated that type 2 diabetes is present for an average of seven years prior to the Motion, as amended, put and declared carried. diagnosis, and up to half of people at this stage may have evidence of complications of diabetes. Diabetes Policy: Statements. These complications include eye, kidney and Minister of State at the Department of Health nerve damage. Diabetes also causes vascular and Children (Mr. S. Power): I thank Members complications resulting in coronary heart disease, for the opportunity to address the House on the stroke and peripheral vascular disease, which are important issue of diabetes. It is a chronic, pro- the main causes of premature death for people gressive metabolic disease that impacts on almost with diabetes. every aspect of a person’s life. Its prevalence is Diabetes is the most common cause of blind- progressively higher in older ages groups, ness and amputations in the working population. however, it can affect infants, children, young Foot problems are the most common cause of people and adults of all ages. There is a great deal diabetic admissions to hospital. Diabetes also of concern because diabetes is becoming more confers additional risks in pregnancy, where there common throughout the developed world. is an increased chance of losing the baby or of There are two different types of diabetes. Type having a congenital abnormality. The increase in 1 diabetes affects mainly young people and has a frequency of diabetes has led to an increase in sudden, and sometimes life threatening, onset. It hospital admissions. In the past three years, requires lifelong insulin. Type 2 diabetes is much hospital admissions have increased by 32%, with more common and usually has its onset in middle almost 40,000 admissions annually. age. It is associated with lifestyle factors and usu- There is consensus on the importance of early ally treated by a combination of behaviour detection, diagnosis and treatment for people changes and medication. with diabetes. The complications of diabetes are In the course of my presentation I wish to give preventable, but to do so diagnosis must be made an outline of the nature, prevalence and impact as early as possible. The provision of services for of diabetes; to describe the initiatives currently people with diabetes is complex and care is pro- under way in regard to prevention; to outline the vided by a wide range of professionals in a wide nature of diabetes care; and to inform Members range of settings. These include general prac- of the national working group on diabetes and titioners and their staff, community health staff the model of care which will inform future dia- and hospital specialist diabetes teams, as well as betes services. Diabetes is a chronic, progressive patients themselves and their carers. The achieve- metabolic disease. Type 1, or insulin dependent ment of good outcomes for people with diabetes diabetes, accounts for approximately 10% of is dependent on the provision of well-organised cases. This affects mainly young people and and integrated diabetes care. requires lifelong treatment with insulin. The majority of patients, particularly those Type 2 diabetes accounts for the remaining with type 2 diabetes, receive their care in the 90% of all cases and affects mainly middle aged primary care setting. In this setting, there are or older people. The prevalence of type 2 dia- obvious benefits of convenience, continuity of betes is increasing due to a number of factors, care and immediate access. Other patients, partic- including the ageing population and lifestyle ularly type 1 diabetics, receive their care primar- issues such as obesity. It is estimated that there ily in the hospital setting, usually from a physician are approximately 140,000 people with diabetes with a specialist interest in diabetes or from an in Ireland. Diabetes has a profound impact on endocrinologist specialising in the treatment of lifestyle, work, well-being and life expectancy. diabetes. These consultants form part of a special- 579 Diabetes Policy: 5 April 2006. Statements 580

[Mr. S. Power.] tified that current policy guidelines will be trans- ist team that includes, among others, the clinical lated into specific action plans with the initial nurse specialist in diabetes. A way of integrating focus on the development of a national diabetes this care is through the provision of shared care service framework. The chief executive of the between the hospital specialist team and primary HSE has identified the establishment of expert care. In shared care, roles and responsibilities are advisory groups as a major step in the reform clearly understood, and it is supported by agreed programme. The purpose of these groups is to protocols. This type of care has been shown to be facilitate key stakeholders, including the clinical particularly effective for the management of type and health community, patients, clients and 2 diabetes. service users in having an influential role in In late 2003, the Minister for Health and Chil- service development. One of the first expert dren asked the chief medical officer of the advisory groups to be established will deal with Department of Health and Children to chair a diabetes. working group consisting of the Department, Following the publication of the report, the service providers and the Diabetes Federation of recommendations have been considered by the Ireland. The membership of the group reflected management team of the primary, community the multidisciplinary nature of diabetes care and and continuing care directorate. The manage- included representatives from the Irish College of ment team has identified the following priorities General Practitioners, diabetes nurse specialists, for primary, community and continuing care the Diabetes Federation of Ireland, health boards services: to audit and assess current provision in and the Department of Health and Children. the local health areas and the administrative As the terms of reference were drafted prior to areas; to identify best practice; the development the establishment of the HSE, the group deter- of local registers; the identification of high-risk mined that there should be two phases to the pro- patients; the development of the working cess, namely, a policy aspect which outlines a arrangements between the HSE and the volun- model of diabetes care and what services diabetes tary sector; and the further roll-out of the screen- patients should receive, and an implementation ing programme for diabetic retinopathy. phase which would be the responsibility of the Funding has been approved by the strategic Health Service Executive. planning and implementation unit of the HSE to The strategy was intended as a high level policy develop a self-care and management network for document to set out a model for diabetes care patients with diabetes in each of the four adminis- together with a range of preventive and thera- trative areas. This was one of the key recom- peutic services that diabetes patients should mendations of the report. Work is advanced in expect to receive. To achieve this, the report conjunction with the Disability Federation of recommended the following: the development of Ireland in agreeing the allocation of the funding population and high-risk approaches to prevent and the service level agreements for the develop- diabetes; the development of podiatry services as ment of the networks. Funding has also been a priority issue to prevent foot care compli- prioritised in 2006 for the development of multi- cations; the introduction of a diabetic retinopathy disciplinary community intervention teams for screening programme to prevent eye disease; the diabetes and work on the roll-out of these pro- development of a diabetes register; the setting out posals is in progress. of a model of high-quality care which describes The Department of Health and Children is cur- what children and adults with diabetes shall rently implementing a number of strategies, the expect to receive throughout their lifetime; that health promotion aspect of which is of direct diabetes services should be prioritised and benefit to diabetics. These strategies include the reflected in the national service plan of the cardiovascular health strategy, the health pro- Health Service Executive; and the development motion strategy and more recently the obesity of “shared care” which described a model of care strategy. that is developed jointly between primary care The cardiovascular health strategy makes 211 and specialist services, and which has been shown recommendations, of which approximately 50 to be most effective in diabetes prevention and relate to prevention of all cardiovascular diseases, the management of complications. including diabetes. The strategy does not deal It also called for a planning and service delivery with the identification or treatment of diabetes. framework, involving diabetes service develop- However, the implementation of the health pro- ment groups with management responsibilities motion aspect of Building Healthier Hearts is of for planning and delivering services and clinical direct benefit to diabetics. Some \60 million has activities in service networks and the application been allocated to the strategy, employing of protocols to support better quality care. The approximately 800 professionals to date. Of this, policy guidance has been published on the \5 million has been allocated to health promotion Department of Health and Children website and employing almost 150 additional health pro- the report forwarded to the HSE for imple- motion officers. Under the cardiovascular health mentation. strategy, a number of agencies and initiatives Diabetes has been acknowledged as a priority have been funded, and these include the Diabetes issue and the 2006 HSE service plan has iden- Federation of Ireland. Since 2002, the health pro- 581 Diabetes Policy: 5 April 2006. Statements 582 motion unit has provided an annual grant of the Minister of State for his comprehensive state- \63,000 to the Diabetes Federation of Ireland to ment but I was struck by the absence of certain help fund its health promotion activities. things in it. The national programme in general practice for Haemochromatosis, as the Minister of State the secondary prevention of cardiovascular dis- knows, is a genetic condition which is very com- ease, Heartwatch, commenced on 1 October 2002 mon in this country. Approximately one in 300 and is being implemented by the HSE in partner- people have it and one in 20 is a carrier. The gene ship with the Irish College of General Prac- must be present in both the mother and father for titioners and the Irish Heart Foundation. Heart- a person to develop full blown haemochroma- watch concentrates on secondary prevention of tosis. In my innocence, I thought the Vikings had cardiovascular disease. In addition, 1,000 people brought it to Ireland but the Celtic curse, as it with diabetes, who are at high risk of developing is sometimes called, is, in fact, a mutation which heart disease, living in the former Midland Health probably took place in the west of Ireland thou- Board area are being included as part of the prog- sands of years ago. Wherever we have sent ramme at a cost of approximately \200,000. people, such as the ladies who went to Scandina- Building Healthier Hearts, published in July via with the Vikings or the Irish who emigrated 1999, identified that secondary prevention for to north America, we have spread the disease. most patients with cardiovascular disease should We have the highest levels of the disease in the be provided in the general practice setting. This world. In the US only 10% are carriers and Scan- service model is also relevant to patients with dia- dinavia has levels between the US and Ireland. betes. The future of the programme will be It is a problem about which we must be vigilant informed by an independent evaluation currently because a number of people with haemochroma- being considered by the Department and the tosis present first as diabetics. This is because it HSE. is a disease where people absorb more iron than Overweight and obese individuals are at an they should. The excess iron is laid down in increased risk of type 2 non-insulin dependent organs like the liver, where it causes cirrhosis, the diabetes. As much as 58% of type 2 diabetes is kidney, which can give rise to serious kidney dis- attributable to excess body fat. The report of the ease, and the pancreas, which can lead to dia- national task force on obesity, Obesity: The betes. It can affect the joints where it leads to a Policy Challenges, was presented to the condition resembling gout. It is important to keep Taoiseach in May 2005. The report contains 93 it uppermost in our mind because we are the recommendations aimed at tackling overweight people most likely to suffer from it. and obesity. Revenue funding of \3 million has Often a person is diagnosed with diabetes and been allocated to the Health Service Executive to some years later undergoes a test for their level progress the implementation of relevant recom- of blood ferritin, an iron-binding protein which mendations of this report. reaches 300 in people who have haemochroma- Intervention to prevent overweight and obesity tosis, and only then somebody decides they improves quality of life and life expectancy and should be tested for the disease. At that stage will also lead to a reduction in type 2 diabetes, they may have cirrhosis of the liver and cardiac some cancers, obesity-related psychological prob- irregularities, which are another common reason lems, hypertension and other cardiovascular risk for presentation. We have the highest incidence factors. The following projects have been of the disease in the world, a fact I would like to approved by the Health Service Executive to take be stressed more in the diabetes strategy. place during 2006: the expansion of the healthy It is also important for the families of anyone food made easy programme; the recruitment of who is found to have haemochromatosis after four physical activity officers to target obesity in diagnosis of diabetes to be screened. Brothers all settings; the provision of four specialist com- and sisters will have a one in four chance of hav- munity dietician posts for obesity and weight ing it. It is very important to catch them because management to support all initiatives; the pur- the treatment is quite easy. It is only necessary to chasing of equipment for growth monitoring; and take blood from sufferers every few weeks. The further progressing work with the food service disease does normally not present until the com- sector on healthy food provision. plications arise and a person is in their 40s or 50s. The HSE has allocated \400,000 to develop the Frequently those with cirrhosis of the liver are service in St. Colmcille’s Hospital in 2006. This told they drank too much and do not get too will allow for the appointment of additional rel- much sympathy, but if there was a little more evant staff and improvements to the physical investigation and more thoughtful examination of infrastructure. The HSE also plans to consolidate their condition we might diagnose more people the one existing obesity service that operates with haemochromatosis before they suffer the from St. Colmcille’s Hospital, Loughlinstown, to organ damage which causes diabetes, cirrhosis support the development of additional centres and cardiac irregularities. based in Cork, Galway and north Dublin and to If the family is checked for the disease or for commence the development of a service for chil- being carriers insurance companies can become dren based at Our Lady’s Hospital for Sick Chil- a bit unpleasant. We must be careful to monitor dren, Crumlin. insurance companies in such cases. If it is good to diagnose the condition early, so that people can Dr. Henry: I thank Senator Browne for receive early treatment and avoid later problems allowing me to speak ahead of him. I also thank such as diabetes, then insurance companies 583 Diabetes Policy: 5 April 2006. Statements 584

[Dr. Henry.] will have to be spared top-up fees and be able should not be allowed to penalise people. It will to see podiatrists more than twice a year. Once only deter them from being tested. someone gets an ulcer on his or her foot, that We also need to monitor food and food sup- person ends up in serious bother, being sent to plements for sufferers, particularly those referred hospital, which costs a fortune. I have been told to as “natural food products” because their label- that it takes at least six weeks in an acute bed ling may not be as careful as we would like. It is before the person can be discharged. The Mini- bad enough for a person to retain iron without ster of State should imagine how many people he taking in even more in this way. could have got off the trolleys in that time if he I am pleased the Minister of State linked the had managed to keep that person out of hospital. cardiovascular strategy to the diabetes strategy He can now make his name by doing so. because it is very important. I was very proud this week to be on a radio advertisement, though I did Mr. Glynn: Cuirim fa´ilte roimh an Aire. I very not hear myself, for the Irish Heart Foundation, much welcome this debate, which I have encouraging people to call a confidential helpline requested for the past two years. if they have a concern and do not want to visit a I am exercised about this situation for several doctor. We should encourage people to ask ques- reasons. I come from a health background, and tions early and the cardiovascular strategy has the number of acquaintances who have helped with that. developed diabetes in recent years is astounding. We must also be very careful about health pro- Views differ regarding the figures, but those that motions. We know from large surveys in the US I have been given by the Diabetes Federation of that low-fat diets have not been very effective. It Ireland suggest that approximately 250,000 dia- would have been preferable for people to have betics have been diagnosed in Ireland, 90% of reduced their carbohydrate intake. It is important them type 2. By 2020, that figure will rise to for people to realise that eating low-fat products 350,000. The Minister of State’s speech has been is not the answer and that by so doing they might most informative, and he has certainly hit many be fooling themselves. of the right buttons, stating that the incidence of The presentation in men and women with car- diabetes is on the increase. diovascular conditions is often different. Women Diabetes has been described by at least one are inclined to present with cardiovascular dis- media outlet as the silent epidemic, but it has ease somewhat later than men. I believe it is great implications for the health services. I regret because women do not complain so much. We in that to date much of what has been done has been the medical profession do not think of cardio- reactive rather than proactive. I was glad to hear vascular disease affecting women in their 40s and the Minister of State speak, and many of the 50s and are too ready to accept the protective measures that he outlined will improve the effect of oestrogens, but we may have fooled our- situation. The establishment of an expert advisory selves on that score. It is important that the medi- group is extremely welcome, and I strongly cal profession raises its sights and is not confined endorse the input of the Diabetes Federation of to what it thought in the past. Ireland. Obesity is a significant problem and the Mini- This condition has several factors, some of ster of State has given prominence to it, in which which the Minister of State has brought up. The everybody will support him. I have been on a diet old saying is that we are what we eat, and the for 40 years. I have not lost any weight but I try food industry has a pivotal role. Kelloggs has cer- to walk a lot. Though I have a sore ankle at the tainly reduced the number of components in its moment, described as having occurred from too food products that would allow this condition to much walking, plenty of walking keeps one’s develop. If we are to win this great battle, it blood sugar down, which is very important with cannot be a matter for the medical or nursing regard to diabetes. If a person is overweight it is professions or the health services alone. This even more important to walk regularly because battle is faced by society as a whole, and it will doing so has a protective effect. I hope the be won only if everyone pulls his or her weight. strategy promotes that as well. Reference has been made, perhaps not today I will return to podiatry. Has the Department but in the past, to people commenting that they managed to settle this ongoing row? have never been to a doctor in their lives and feel great. It is important to remember that many of Mr. S. Power: I knew I should have left it out them are of my gender, and while they will regu- of the speech. larly bring their car for a service, they will not visit their GP for a check-up. That is regrettable, Dr. Henry: The Minister of State should put his as proactive measures are the only way in which best foot forward to settle it. we will address this growing epidemic. I was recently told by a diabetologist that vir- In my early days as a member of the Midland tually the only reason apart from serious accident Health Board, a young member of my family or malignancy that a person in this country has a aged perhaps ten was diagnosed as a diabetic, one leg amputated is diabetes, and that is really of ten new diabetics in Mullingar General dreadful. We have managed to cut down on Hospital at the time. I asked the director of com- smoking and other causes, and we must now get munity care whether diabetes was on the increase at this problem and make people realise how or whether the diagnostic procedures were better. important it is that they look after their feet. They I was informed that the latter was true, but that 585 Diabetes Policy: 5 April 2006. Statements 586 while the incidence was increasing it had not been The cost implications of this condition to the detected. GPs can do a great deal, and they are economy regarding what it will draw down from doing their best. They cannot send out well- health services are mind-boggling, and I do not trained collies or other teams to bring people to believe that anyone has realised that. This can them. However, people should go to their GPs to only be resolved by all sections of society working get themselves screened. Schools can also play a together. This crisis rivals that of tuberculosis in very important role in the area. the early part of the last century. The former Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin, in 2004 established a working Mr. Browne: I welcome the Minister of State group to examine the issue and make recom- to the House and compliment Senator Glynn for mendations for further action. The group’s work his persistence in this matter. Every week he has has been informed by a wide range of available sought a debate on this topic and tonight he has evidence nationally and internationally, including been accommodated. I also compliment Senator a major document produced by the Diabetes Fed- Henry for her well chosen words. She might fol- eration of Ireland entitled Securing the Future. low Deputy Twomey’s example, leave the Inde- The national diabetes working group submitted pendent benches and join Fine Gael now that we its report to the Ta´naiste and Minister for Health are on our way up and heading for Government. and Children, Deputy Harney, last summer. It That, however, is an issue for another day. was forwarded to the chief executive of the Diabetes should make us ask if the Department Health Service Executive in October 2005, and of Health and Children should deal with health the HSE is giving this matter priority. This topic or with disease. I have asked that question many arose last Thursday as my colleague across the times. Are we the fire brigade extinguishing the floor and others, including Senators Kate Walsh blaze or are we preventing the fire in the first and O’Meara, were present. The situation place? I hope we are the latter, that we are pro- received a certain acknowledgement. active. We must also take on board the fact that not The Minister of State and I are taking part in all parts of the country have the services of a con- the BUPA Ireland run on Sunday. We must put sultant endocrinologist. The midland region, in place proper facilities for people to encourage where I happen to reside, is among those without them to exercise. The State cannot be held liable one. As chairman of the Midland Health Board, for every aspect of the individual’s health but it I remember receiving a deputation with the then has a responsibility to put proper sporting facili- deputy CEO with responsibility for community ties in place. A school in Carlow applied for a services. The point was made that there was an prefabricated classroom but it was turned down urgent need for a consultant endocrinologist in and the Department of Education and Science the midland region. There are now dialysis advised the school to divide the school gym into two halves. How are the children supposed to services there, but we still require an endocri- exercise? nologist. Co-ordinated thinking is required across all Type 1 diabetes, formerly known as insulin- Departments, with proper sports facilities at dependent diabetes, develops where there is a primary and secondary level and on into adult lack of insulin in the body because the cells that life. We cannot criticise people for not taking made it have been destroyed. That type of dia- exercise when the State does not provide enough betes usually appears before the age of 40 and is facilities. We have a great network of GAA, treated by insulin injections and diet. The causes rugby and soccer clubs but we must keep pushing of type 1 diabetes are complex and still not the sports facilities to allow people to use them. clearly understood. People with type 1 diabetes I go running and every time I go out on the roads, are thought to have an inherited or genetic pre- I am taking my life in my hands. It is getting more disposition to the condition that may remain dor- dangerous. All urban areas should have proper mant until activated by an environmental trigger running tracks. We must look at the bigger pic- such as a virus or chemical. That starts an attack ture instead of spending millions of euro putting on the immune system that results in the eventual the fire out when lesser expenditure would help destruction of the beta cells in the pancreas and to prevent the fire in the first place. subsequent loss of insulin production. It is estimated that 300,000 people have dia- Type 2 diabetes, formerly known as non-insu- betes and around a third of those are undiag- lin-dependent, develops when the body can still nosed. Fine Gael proposes a national screening make some insulin, although not enough for its programme which would ascertain the extent of needs, or when the insulin that the body makes is the problem and make people aware of it so they not used properly. We must examine exactly what can solve it. We recommend periodic health scre- people do to help themselves. As Senator Henry ening for specific age groups. There should be has said, we must also consider all the services, routine health checks and age and gender specific such as those that deal with problems with the screening for each adult with urine analysis, eyes and feet. Statistics have proven that the most blood pressure, cholestrol levels, body mass index common reason for amputation of the lower and blood sugar levels tested. limbs is type 1 diabetes. Blindness is also a major These tests are simple and inexpensive but can side-effect of diabetes. There are cardiology and be effective in detecting illnesses such as diabetes kidney problems and a plethora of others driven and heart disease. They can also be carried out by this condition. in the local GP surgery. This national screening 587 Diabetes Policy: 5 April 2006. Statements 588

[Mr. Browne.] have it. It is a major difficulty in every health programme should begin at 20 years of age for area. My friend had to give up smoking, which he women and 30 for men, with tests to be under- was not too happy about, but he is doing it. We taken at five yearly intervals until age 50 for must publicise the symptoms of diabetes and women, every three years after that until 70 and explain the link with blindness and amputation. then every two years after that. For men the tests There is a also need for dieticians. would be done every five years until age 60 and I congratulate the Diabetes Federation of then every three years until 70, with biannual Ireland on the great work it is doing; it is holding checks thereafter. We will also push a strong a conference in Kilkenny on Sunday. I urge the health promotion initiative aimed at reducing Government to be pro-active because prevention obesity and its associated problems such as heart is always better than the cure. disease and diabetes. Senator Glynn’s analogy about getting the car Ms K. Walsh: I welcome the opportunity to checked every year is perfect. People have no dif- contribute to these statements. Members of the ficulty going to a mechanic for their cars but they House know that I use statements on various do not do it for themselves, particularly men. We issues to discuss diabetes. I regard it as an must get into the habit of going to the doctor on important subject. Therefore, I am delighted we a regular basis and getting tested for diabetes and are having this dedicated debate. I wish to pay heart disease. That would help prevent many of tribute to my colleague, Senator Glynn. Since he the problems later in life. discovered I was a diabetic he has been persistent Along with Senator Glynn, I met the del- in having diabetes spoken about in the House egation from the Diabetes Federation of Ireland and, to a great extent, he has encouraged me to and was impressed by the great work it does. I do the same. I do not wish to sound as if I am was surprised that it only received \63,000 for the contradicting anyone but I have been a diabetic year. That should be increased because its work for 30 years and neither of my parents were is so worthwhile. A friend of mine with diabetes diabetic. gets a magazine from the federation every month Diabetes is an illness I have managed for 30 which contains very useful information. The years and I wish to make four specific points. organisation would certainly benefit from more First, it has been noted that there are 250,000 dia- money. betics in Ireland. Nine of out ten I did not understand the references the del- 8 o’clock have type 2 diabetes. If the trend egation made to podiatrists but there is a link continues in this way, one third of between undiagnosed diabetes and amputation. men in Ireland will face increased risk of diabetes That involves very significant costs and people do in the next ten years. I continue to stress the point not want to lose a limb. The federation has that diabetes must not be thought of as a problem recommended 70 podiatrists for the State and we we face in the future. It is a real and current prob- should ensure that figure is met. Some people wait for two years between diagnosis and seeing lem in Ireland. That we are having these state- a consultant. The ideal scenario would be one ments is at least some recognition of that fact. I consultant for every 50,000 but at present we only noted in this House in February that the Diabetes have one for every 150,000. Federation of Ireland told the Oireachtas Joint Unfortunately we also need more paediatric Committee on Health and Children about the consultants. I attended a talk in Trinity College need for a national diabetes strategy. I am Dublin by a consultant in St. James’s Hospital. interested in hearing all views on this issue. He pointed out that diabetes is common in older My second point relates to diagnosis. While people but the very worrying trend is that type 2 250,000 people in Ireland are diabetic, the further diabetes, commonly found in people aged 50 and 100,000, who are currently undiagnosed, pose a over, is now turning up in teenagers. specific challenge. Men, in particular, although Senator Glynn was correct in his comments on not exclusively, are poor when it comes to regular food labelling and food types. In our busy lives check ups. Would this be as much of a problem we are bombarded with low fat diets and con- if it were more widely known that undiagnosed venience foods but the labelling is not clear. Kel- type 2 diabetes is the primary cause of heart dis- logg’s was mentioned and while it has done some ease, kidney disease, lower limb amputation and good work, I have seen different reports stating blindness in those under 65? People must go for that the company’s products are not as good as it a check up. Diabetes is detected by a simple claims. We no longer have time to analyse this blood test which is quick and relatively painless, information, we all know we should be cooking but so important. Until we begin to tire of stating fresh vegetables and eating fruit but we do not do this message, we have not said it often enough. it. We should work at EU level to push for clear People should check their family history of dia- labelling of food produce and foods that claim to betes, look at their levels of physical activity and be low in fat should be genuinely tested. realise that the likelihood of developing diabetes I phoned a friend of mine who was diagnosed goes up with age. I would have thought I did with diabetes at 50 years of age when I saw this enough running around here to have fulfilled my debate was coming up and he sang the praises of exercise quota for the day but, according to the service locally. We must push health pro- Senators Glynn and Browne, and possibly motion advertising to explain the symptoms of Senator O’Meara, I have not done enough. I will diabetes because people are not aware they might not, however, walk to Celbridge. 589 Diabetes Policy: 5 April 2006. Statements 590

My third point relates to the less well-known preventable. In other words, we can do something effects of diabetes. In 2003, it is estimated that about it, but clearly we are not doing so. there were 900 inpatient discharges for diabetes. I am a parent and I know of the pressures on This treatment cost over \3.5 million. That is a the modern family, which Senator Browne men- cost of over \4,500 for each diabetic. We cannot tioned. There is often a tendency to buy fast food ignore the implications. Financial cost is not the and put it in the microwave. When one eats such most important issue but it cannot be ignored. My food one is unaware of the amount of added fourth point is that early diagnosis of diabetes will sugar and salt in it. Given our increased affluence have profound consequences for our wider health and prosperity, more people go out to dinner and service in that there will be fewer eye problems, our diet has probably become less healthy. Grow- lower levels of cardiovascular disease, fewer ing up, we had a very plain eating regime but chil- amputations and fewer cases of renal failure. dren nowadays would not put up with it. Fizzy The Ta´naiste and Minister for Health and Chil- drinks should be banned in schools and fizzy dren has worked hard on this issue for all the drinks machines should be removed from them. right reasons. She has expressed her concern and, A clear message should be sent to children about more importantly, her commitment to dealing healthy eating yet we are not doing enough in with diabetes. We know that chronic illness must that regard. be managed in our communities. Admission to I am very concerned about the growth of child- hospital for diabetes has increased by one third hood diabetes. A task force on obesity has been annually while we know the most appropriate established and, clearly, there is an issue in terms way to deal with the illness is at community level. of weight, exercise and unhealthy lifestyle. We As I stated in this House two months ago, I must look at how we will transform the situation understand a major element of the negotiations because we are not doing enough in that regard. held with doctors was on how chronic illness can Every now and then, there is a spate of advertis- be managed at primary care level. I commend the ing, talk about the healthy eating pyramid, the Ta´naiste and Minister for Health and Children, fact we need to eat more of this and that, and the Ministers of State and the Department on about using the stairs instead of the lift. RTE also their work and initiatives in dealing with diabetes. broadcasts good programmes on healthy living. I also wish to repeat the most important mess- However, we are only skimming the surface. We ages. Diabetes is detected by a simple blood test, must recognise we have a major problem on our people should check their family history and lev- hands. Unless we treat it as a major problem, it els of physical activity, and the likelihood of will not be responded to as such. It will be developing diabetes increases with age. regarded as a problem for somebody else to worry about. Given that type 2 diabetes is preventable, it is Ms O’Meara: I welcome the Minister of State inexcusable that we are not dealing with the issue. and the opportunity to speak in this important When we look at the issue of lifestyle, we prob- debate. Like other Senators, I commend Senator ably need to look at the broader issue of the Glynn on his perseverance in regard to this issue, pressure families are under. It is possible families his insistence on constantly raising it, bringing to do not have enough time to cook a healthy meal public attention and having it considered. I was — hence the increase in the consumption of fast not aware of the figures until I read the Minister food, the number of people going out to eat and of State’s speech and listened to other Senators. the number of fast food outlets. While there is There is no question but that this is a serious nothing wrong with having a burger and chips public health issue. occasionally, we all know that in some cases it I wish to limit my remarks to the growth of becomes the regular diet, which is not acceptable. type 2 diabetes, because there is a major distinc- Let us consider how we can make our schools and tion between the two types. We need to consider workplaces healthy. We are doing our children a the reasons for the growth of type 2 diabetes and disservice by not taking this matter seriously the implications for the health service and, as because they will be left with a lifetime of illness other Senators said, the economic implications. and possibly a reduced life expectancy. The Minister of State did not mention the cost in I thank all those involved in bringing about this his speech. How much does it cost to treat people debate. I hope it will generate the kind of action with type 2 diabetes? While most are treated at that needs to be taken. primary care level, it must be possible to calculate the cost. The cost of cigarette smoking has been Dr. M. Hayes: I, too, welcome the Minister of calculated, so I hope every effort is being made State and pay tribute to Senator Glynn for his by the Department to calculate the cost to the perseverance in bringing this important matter to taxpayer and the Exchequer of the growth of type light. Unfortunately Senator O’Meara stole my 2 diabetes. script and I will not repeat everything she said. We need to consider the growth of childhood diabetes. As Senator Browne said, people who we Mr. S. Power: The Senator needs the Minister would not have expected to develop diabetes for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. until possibly their 60s are now developing it at a much younger age. There is a very worrying trend Dr. M. Hayes: I commend to the Minister of in regard to the growth of childhood diabetes State an interview with Jack Gilroy in last week- which is linked to diet and exercise and which is end’s Sunday Independent. Mr. Gilroy is a former 591 Diabetes Policy: 5 April 2006. Statements 592

[Dr. M. Hayes.] other Senators for their very constructive and Dublin footballer who lost both legs as a result extremely helpful contributions. Diabetes is a of diabetes. His story is quite harrowing and his very serious issue and one would like to think this problem stems from a sweet tooth. debate will generate debate outside the House. Diabetes is an epidemic. Obesity is creeping up The more exposure the subject gets, the better. on us and if we do not get a grip on it, it will Senator Henry made a number of points and overwhelm the acute services. It will affect almost one would always have to respect her opinion on every field, including the renal, cardiovascular matters medical. She stressed the need for greater and ocular services. Money invested to address emphasis on haemochromatosis in the diabetes the problem now will save enormous sums in the strategy. She and others referred to obesity and future. Any analysis of health economics would the need for increased physical activity. Physical lead one to this conclusion. activity can involve a practice as simple as walk- One worries when one sees the level of obesity ing. Unfortunately, for a variety of reasons, among kids, even those of ten years. It is caused people are not walking nearly as much as they by a combination of what they eat and a lack of used to. We will have to change this situation. exercise. Children are being driven to school Senator Glynn mentioned the expert advisory whereas they walked in the old days. I can under- group. Its existence is an indication of the serious- stand why parents drive their children to school ness with which we are treating diabetes. He also but if they were encouraged to walk safely it mentioned the need for an extra endocrinologist would get rid of a lot of environmental pollution in the Mullingar area. We appreciate the benefits in addition to fat. this would afford and we will certainly consider it. My wife was a supply teacher some years ago Senator Browne mentioned the necessity to and introduced a rule that her pupils could drink increase the number of podiatrists and the issue nothing but water. The consequent lowering in of food labelling. He also mentioned the need for the rate of hyperactivity among the children was an information campaign on this matter. He amazing. When my own grandchildren are given referred to the experience of a friend who dis- sweets, they jump up and down for an hour covered he was a diabetic but who was very thereafter. appreciative of the type of service available to It is important to encourage people to take the him. It is heartening to know this type of service test for diabetes. If general practitioners were is available. given a quota of patients to test for diabetes, col- Senator Browne asked whether we are putting lie dogs would not be needed. The general prac- out the fire or preventing it. Unfortunately both titioners would bring the patients in themselves. approaches are required. Diabetics cannot be I did a study of acute hospital services in the ignored and we do not want to ignore them, and North some years ago and also spent considerable it is therefore important to provide them with the time studying private practice. I noted a model service they need while encouraging others to example of the handling of diabetes at primary take steps to prevent themselves from needing it. care level in a practice in Crossmaglen in south Their current lifestyle will determine how healthy Armagh, the name of which I could circulate. they will be in later life. There was an absolutely wonderful diabetes Senator Kate Walsh, a diabetic, gave us some nurse and she was able to manage a high number idea of the difficulties diabetics experience and of diabetics, even advanced diabetics, in the com- also stressed the importance and value of early munity, thereby keeping them out of hospital. diagnosis. We all agree with her in this respect. The key was that she had a close relationship with Senator O’Meara asked about costs. While I do an endocrinologist in a hospital, who was able to not have the relevant figures to hand, I acknowl- respond. The two must work together. I would edge that her question is important. Unfortu- commend this model to anyone looking for a nately when considering the provision of service, model of good practice. the cost always comes into the equation some- I congratulate the Minister of State on what has where along the line. It can often determine the been done. The subject needs to be treated type or level of service provided. We should for- tremendously seriously. As Senator O’Meara get about the cost for a moment and consider the stated, it is a question of lifestyle. As well as look- effect on the life of a person who develops dia- ing after diabetics, one must try to change betes, which is impossible to quantify. The people’s lifestyles and encourage them to eat and Senator asked the question and we will try to get live more healthily. some more information. In 2003 it was estimated I support Senator Henry’s plea for foot care that we had 900 inpatient discharges for diabetics, services. Foot problems are the primary cause of for which the cost worked out at approximately immobility and there is more need for foot care \3.5 million, which represents a cost of slightly services among diabetics than among any other more than \4,500 per patient. I will try to get group. Eye services are ancillary but both types more specific and accurate figures. The Senator of services are very important. I ask the Minister also mentioned the need to expand health of State to tackle the problem of diabetes at promotion. school level and through primary care. Senator Maurice Hayes spoke about his wife who banned fizzy drinks in the classroom and the Minister of State at the Department of Health obvious benefit in a short period. A number of and Children (Mr. S. Power): I thank Senator schools have been very proactive in dealing with Glynn for arranging this debate and thank the the matter. They have encouraged children with 593 State 5 April 2006. Airports 594 initiatives such as having a particular day when Acting Chairman (Mr. Cummins): When is it only healthy foods are allowed. Many parents proposed to sit again? have learnt from their children rather than the reverse. They are much more educated and aware Mr. Glynn: Tomorrow at 10.30 a.m. than pupils would have been in previous years. I thank the Members for their contributions. Adjournment Matters. Diabetes is a lifelong condition that impacts on almost every aspect of life. It can affect all ages ———— and cases have been diagnosed in babies as young as 12 months. Type 2 diabetes accounts for 90% State Airports. of all cases and it is widely acknowledged that the increase in this disease can be attributed to our Ms Cox: I am glad we are discussing this issue aging population and the rise in the incidence of in the Seanad this evening and I am delighted the obesity. The effect of the disease on the individ- Minister of State at the Department of Transport ual has been well documented. However, the is here to outline the details of his discussions with the Dublin Airport Authority. However, it impact on the health service is also substantial saddens me that we need to have this discussion with, for example, an increase of 32% in hospital at all. It would have been much better if we could admissions in the past three years. have considered the sale of Great Southern GPs and primary care services have an essen- Hotels not as a disposal, but in the context of tial role in diagnosing and treating patients with moving forward. We should be discussing making diabetes. Early interventions can minimise many a decision as to what we could do to support the of the effects of the disease. An integrated service hotel group, which has been central to the involving hospital and primary care will ensure development of tourism and industry here. the best outcome for patients and this in addition The Minister of State knows I have a deep to other recommendations has been documented interest in the success of the hotels run by Great in the strategy produced by the Department of Southern Hotels on the outskirts of Galway city Health and Children. The response of the HSE and in Eyre Square. Both hotels have played an to the strategy has been swift with the imminent enormous role in the development of the city. It establishment of an expert advisory group. is insane that the Dublin Airport Authority can The HSE has identified priorities, including the now suddenly decide to asset-strip all such assets development of a mechanism for the identifi- by selling them to the highest bidder. Are we cation of high-risk patients and the expansion of becoming a country of developers or will we focus the screening programme for diabetic retinopa- on sustainable development? We should ensure thy. Funding has been secured to develop a self- that we sustain development in that area for our care and management network for patients with children and our tourism industry. We should diabetes in each of the four administrative areas value the work and effort put in by more than for the development of multidisciplinary com- 660 employees in the group in the country. While munity intervention teams for diabetes. in the past the group made considerable profits, On the question of personal health, many it is true that it is going through a difficult period. things happen to people who become ill. This is No Government or authority can sustain losses of \ one area in which people have certain control and 6 million. their lifestyle choices will influence their health. I appeal to the Minister of State to tell the We must encourage people to balance their lives Dublin Airport Authority a number of things. in every respect and particularly in diet and physi- Why do we need to sell the assets? I remind the cal activity. Both Government and local auth- Minister of State that the railway line from orities must make it an easy option for people. Galway city to Clifden was torn up. We got rid of With the long evenings it is much easier for that asset yet people in Galway are now asking why we did not keep it. The same issues will arise people to take exercise. However, to cater for the when we sell the Great Southern Hotels. People winter nights, we need to ensure that we build will ask why we did not keep the Corrib Great housing estates with walkways that are well lit so Southern Hotel. We could have developed its that people can feel secure when taking exercise. tourism and conference business. It is on seven or Facilities such as walkways and playing pitches eight acres of land in State ownership. We could must be made more plentiful and accessible. It have done something with it and instead we are is our duty to encourage people to live healthier letting it go to the highest bidder, which could lifestyles, which is what we are trying to do. While result in British chain stores coming into the we have had some success, it is important that we Great Southern Hotel in Eyre Square. build on it. What kind of image of Ireland is that to sell to The HSE has prioritised diabetes and the the world? We will become like any high street effects of this will become apparent as services in the UK. Where is our uniqueness? Where is become integrated and more accessible. I am our tourism going? optimistic that the rise in the incidence of dia- Why are we selling these assets? Next, the betes can be halted and reversed and that the Ta´naiste and Minister for Health and Children effects can be minimised and maintained at levels will decide we no longer need Merlin Park that enable people to go about their everyday Hospital and it will be sold to get money. We do lives. not need the money. We do not need to get rid of 595 State 5 April 2006. Airports 596

[Ms Cox.] decision with regard to the company’s poor finan- the assets. We do not need to sell Great Southern cial performance, the negative outlook for the Hotels in a willy-nilly way that solves problems business and the inability of the board of the for Dublin Airport Authority and does nothing authority to continue to support Great Southern for the rest of the country. Hotels financially. The chairman of the authority There has been no talk of what the authority informed the Minister at that time that his board will do with the money. If we decide to sell the had endorsed the decision of the board of the hotels where will the money go? It certainly will GSH group and concluded that it should facilitate not come to Galway. Who created the asset? It the orderly disposal of the hotels as a going con- was in State ownership. While it might be accept- cern. The authority has informed the Minister able for the authority to take back the money that it has decided to continue to provide finan- invested by it and by CIE, the profits and the cial support to the GSH group this year, to facili- additional value accruing due to property valua- tate the continuation of normal operations and an tions need to stay in Galway city. orderly process of disposal of the hotels. The If we must sell the Great Southern Hotels we group has assured all its staff, customers and busi- must look after the staff, people who have given ness partners that it intends to operate normally their entire lives to the group. They are entitled during the disposal process. to be cared for, as they are employees of the The Minister, Deputy Cullen, has been State. If we are to sell the hotels, I demand that informed by the Dublin Airport Authority that a the money stay in Galway. I also demand that the process of full engagement with staff and unions hotels be sold as a going concern and that some on the implications of the board’s decision is of the hotels are kept so that we can continue to under way. The Government and the Minister build and sustain the tourism industry in the west. have been aware for some time of the difficulties We are losing bed nights to Dublin and the east and challenges facing the GSH group in a com- of this country on a nightly and weekly basis. We petitive and changing hotel market, in which need to stop this division between east and west holidaymakers and business travellers are offered and stand on our own two feet. We need to a great range and choice of hotel and other demand the things to which we are entitled. We accommodation at home and abroad. The are entitled to retain the Great Southern Hotels Government took note of the authority’s assess- group in State ownership. We are entitled to ment that the orderly disposal of the hotels, as a ensure that the group’s assets are not stripped going concern, offers the best opportunity for the and sold to the highest bidder. If that happens, hotels to reach their full potential in the niche however — I accept with a certain sense of inevi- markets to which they are best suited. The dis- tability that it will happen, through no choice of posal will also enable the hotels to contribute to mine — the staff must be looked after and the the development of tourism in their localities and money that is received on foot of those assets to their communities. should not be sold to fund the Dublin Airport The Great Southern Hotel group has retained Authority’s pension fund. Such money should not advisers to examine all aspects of the proposed be invested in the development of Dublin Airport disposal of the hotels. The Minister understands — it should return to County Galway and the city that the executive chairman of the group and the of Galway. advisers, together with the senior management of This is not just a Galway issue. My colleague, the group, have visited all the hotels and met the Senator Coghlan, who is not present this evening, staff to discuss the difficulties being faced by the has supported me consistently on this issue. We GSH group and the implications of the decision have supported each other — it is not as if I am to dispose of the hotels. A programme will be put leading the way in this regard. He has fought the in place to minimise the impact of the decision on fight for County Kerry and the Great Southern the day-to-day business of the hotels. The Mini- Hotel in Killarney. We are on the same page. We ster recently met trade union representatives agree completely about this situation. We cannot from the GSH group to discuss their concerns let it go. These are State assets. The Government about the future of the hotels. He understands should tell Dublin Airport Authority that it that meetings have also taken place between the cannot proceed in the manner that has been sug- unions and the Dublin Airport Authority and gested. I look forward to hearing the response of that further discussions are planned. That the the Minister of State, Deputy Gallagher. authority has given an assurance that it will con- tinue to support the hotels financially during the Minister of State at the Department of Trans- rest of this year is a clear indication that the port (Mr. Gallagher): I thank Senator Cox for hotels are unable to support themselves. raising this issue and giving me an opportunity to I accept the points made by Senator Cox, who respond to her comments. As the House is aware, has a deep interest in the Great Southern Hotels the Great Southern Hotels group is a wholly group. I am quite familiar with the Eyre Square owned subsidiary of the Dublin Airport Auth- and Corrib hotels and I appreciate that they have ority. The chairman of the authority informed the played a great part in the development of the city Taoiseach and the Minister for Transport last of Galway. I assure the Senator that I will convey February that the board of the GSH group had her concerns about the staff and the future of the decided that it had no option, in the best interest hotels to the attention of the Minister, Deputy of all its stakeholders, other than to sell the hotel Cullen, who will convey them in turn to the chain as a going concern. The board took that Dublin Airport Authority. I reiterate that the 597 Water and 5 April 2006. Sewerage Schemes 598 decision that was taken by the GSH group was I ask the Minister of State to release the project endorsed by the authority and noted by the and indicate to Galway County Council that it Government. I assure Senator Cox that the Mini- should progress matters. Galway County Council, ster and I will monitor the situation closely. in a recent statement from one of its officials, has stated that the wheels are turning. However, they Water and Sewerage Schemes. have been turning in Kinvara for so long that it must be a very large wheel that has allowed Mr. U. Burke: I thank the Cathaoirleach for matters to continue as they have over the years. selecting this matter for debate on the Adjourn- Many people have made representations to the ment. I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Department on the issue. I hope the Minister of Batt O’Keeffe, to the House to discuss a project State can indicate that work on this project may in County Galway that has been promised for a commence immediately. long time. The circumstances in Kinvara Bay are unique. The continued discharge of raw sewage Minister of State at the Department of the into the bay must be an embarrassment to Environment, Heritage and Local Government Galway County Council and to the Government. (Mr. B. O’Keeffe): I thank Senator Burke for This matter was brought to the attention of the raising what is obviously a very important issue. European Commission, which warned the council My Department’s Water Services Investment that it would take action against it if something Programme 2005-07, published last December, was not done within a particular period of time. includes some 60 major water and sewerage That period of time has elapsed, however, with- schemes, with a value of over \451 million for out any indication from the council or the Galway. Over the years the Department has del- Department of the Environment, Heritage and egated more and more responsibilities to local Local Government that anything is about to hap- authorities to speed up the procurement of new pen. Kinvara Bay is unique because it has inner water services infrastructure. The Minister for the and outer sections, with protective currents which Environment, Heritage and Local Government, ensure that the sewage that is pumped into the Deputy Roche, and I have recently greatly bay is retained. The levels of pollution in the bay extended this devolution of functions when we are greater than those in normal bays, in which announced that for every project in the water the water is kept clean to some degree by the services investment programme valued under \5 regular removal of sewage by the tides. That pro- million, local authorities will henceforth be cess does not happen in Kinvara Bay. The visual entitled, after they receive preliminary approval, impact of the retention of sewage is as severe as to proceed right through to construction without its impact on water quality. Many studies have further reference to the Department. This gives been done at Kinvara Bay. The quality of its local authorities the power to advance individual water has been tested on numerous occasions by schemes with considerably reduced involvement the former health board and more recently by the by the Department. The result should be a signifi- Health Service Executive. All such tests have cant speeding up of the process for hundreds of found that the quality of water at Kinvara Bay is individual smaller schemes — from drawing far below the levels required by the EU. The bay board through to completion. More importantly, is highly polluted. it will mean that the Department’s expertise can We have been waiting for a long time for the be concentrated on advancing the bigger and Department of the Environment, Heritage and more costly projects. Local Government to release the preliminary The Kinvara sewerage scheme is included, at report that was submitted by Galway County an estimated cost of \2.8 million, to start con- Council. The Department has given permission to struction in 2007 in the Department’s current local authorities to pursue projects costing less water services investment programme. It might than \5 million. The Kinvara Bay project would be worth having a word with the officials in cost approximately \3 million. I have raised this Galway because additional information has been issue to allow the Minister of State to indicate requested from Galway County Council in order that the council may proceed with the planned to allow a decision to be made on the revised pre- works at Kinvara Bay, thereby alleviating a liminary report for the scheme received from the serious problem. The fishing grounds at the bay council. Perhaps the Senator might talk to the are already gone. Kinvara Bay used to be a county manager, because the sooner the council renowned area for shellfish, including oysters and gets the information to the Department, matters shrimps, but nobody eats shellfish from the bay can be advanced to the construction stage in line now because it is so polluted. There was a time with the revised procedures we have put in place. when one could swim in Kinvara Bay, right into I hope this clarifies the position for the Senator the quays, but that is no longer possible because and I assure him that a decision will be made on of the health risks involved. The waters of the the preliminary report and a response issued to bay have traditionally been quite important for the council as quickly as possible after receipt of recreational activities such as boating, but such the necessary information. activities have ceased because people have been warned of the potential health risks associated Mr. Kitt: I thank the Cathaoirleach for allowing with the poor quality of the waters. I am sure me to raise this issue and I thank the Minister of Senator Kitt is very familiar with the problem State, Deputy Batt O’Keeffe, for coming into the there as well. House to reply. I am talking about the village of 599 The 5 April 2006. Adjournment 600

[Mr. Kitt.] Department’s request in 2003 to local authorities Creggs on the border of Galway and to produce updated and prioritised assessments Roscommon. It is well known, inter alia, for being of new infrastructural needs in their areas. the place where Charles Stewart Parnell made his The local authorities’ assessments of needs are last public speech before he died. I commend the the main input to the ranking of individual historical society in Creggs for establishing a heri- schemes by the Department. This process has tage centre in memory of Parnell. resulted in Galway County Council currently hav- This village is unique in catering for a wide var- ing an extensive package of works for which for- iety of sporting bodies. As well as GAA and mal departmental approval has been given and other sports, it is well known for its rugby teams. for which the necessary Exchequer funding is in The Cathaoirleach will be interested to know that place. The \451 million worth of projects to be the principal of the school in Creggs was the late completed over the next few years will transform Mattie McDonagh. The school won the Irish the quality and coverage of the county’s water Independent Building for the Future competition. and waste water infrastructure and will compre- I want to point out that this is a CLA´ R area hensively deal with the essential infrastructural where there is priority for certain developments requirements the council has prioritised. Given in towns covered by the programme where the the level of competing demand for the available population has fallen over the years. For that funding, however, and the relating low priority reason it is a village that needs a sewerage afforded to the Creggs scheme by the council, it scheme in order to develop. I am making a strong was not possible to include it in the water services case this evening to have it included. The Mini- investment programme at that time. ster for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, On the positive side, I must emphasise that the Deputy O´ Cuı´v, has visited the town of Creggs current Water Services Investment Programme with me on a number of occasions. He announced 2005-07 is part of an ongoing three-year strategy that Creggs was in the CLA´ R programme and has that is rolled forward at regular intervals. New helped out in many ways, particularly as regards schemes continue to be added to future phases of grants given to some of the sporting bodies in the the programme in line with prevailing priorities town. I ask the Minister of State to progress the identified by local authorities and national scheme, if he can, particularly as regards the requirements. In this context, local authorities CLA´ R priorities and also regarding the necessary have recently been requested to undertake new developments that the people of Creggs wish to assessments of their needs and priorities which undertake. will be taken into account when framing the next phase of the water services investment programme. Mr. B. O’Keeffe: I want to thank Senator Kitt It is important for the Senator to have a dia- for raising this issue and for his ongoing interest logue with Galway County Council to ensure it in matters such as these in his Galway constitu- gives the Creggs the priority he is saying it ency. My Department continues to invest heavily deserves. If the Senator does that, I can assure in modern water services infrastructure to sup- him that I have listened carefully to what he has port social and economic development. The said as regards the Creggs sewerage scheme, and Water Services Investment Programme 2005-07 that it will be borne in mind when the next roll- includes some 60 major water and sewerage \ out of the investment programme is being schemes with a value of over 451 million for prepared. Galway. Many areas of the county, such as Carna- Kilkieran, Tuam and Headford will now benefit Mr. Kitt: I thank the Minister of State and ask from improved water supplies. Also included are him to bear in mind what I have said as regards new regional water supply schemes for Costelloe, Creggs being a CLA´ R area. I believe there Gort, Ballinasloe, Clifden, Loughrea, Dunmore- should be some priority and if the council makes Glenamaddy and Portumna. that case. I trust that he and the Department’s In addition, towns and village such as Athenry, officials will take on board the fact that Creggs is Ballinasloe, Barna, Carraroe, Clifden, Glenam- a CLA´ R area. addy, Headford, Kinvara, Milltown, Oughterard Mr. B. O’Keeffe: Obviously, it is of extreme and Tuam can also look forward to new or importance that Galway County Council prior- upgraded sewerage schemes. itises this scheme and makes its case on the basis When selecting individual projects for approval of the importance of the CLA´ R scheme. If that as part of the water services investment prog- is done, the Department will look very favourably ramme, the Department takes into account the on it in terms of including the scheme in the priorities identified by the local authorities con- next programme. cerned. In this case, Creggs sewerage scheme was fourth on the list of schemes submitted by The Seanad adjourned at 8.50 p.m. until Galway County Council in response to the 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 6 April 2006.