Meeting of the Parliament

Wednesday 19 February 2020

Session 5

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Wednesday 19 February 2020

CONTENTS Col. SMOKING BAN (PLAY PARKS AND OUTDOOR SPORTS FACILITIES) ...... 1 Motion debated—[Rachael ]. Rachael Hamilton (Ettrick, Roxburgh and ) (Con) ...... 1 Kenneth Gibson ( North) (SNP) ...... 4 Brian Whittle (South ) (Con) ...... 6 David Stewart (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) ...... 7 ( and ) (SNP) ...... 9 The Minister for Parliamentary Business and Veterans (Graeme Dey) ...... 11 PORTFOLIO QUESTION TIME ...... 15 TRANSPORT, INFRASTRUCTURE AND CONNECTIVITY ...... 15 A9 (Electronic Signage) ...... 15 Road Safety (Rural Areas) ...... 16 Rural Bus Routes (South Scotland)...... 17 Transport Procurement (Processes and Criteria) ...... 19 Ferry Procurement (Competition and Markets Authority) ...... 20 Scottish 4G Infill Programme () ...... 21 Get Moving Campaign ...... 22 JUSTICE AND THE LAW OFFICERS ...... 24 Justice System (Support for Serious Crime Victims) ...... 24 Transdermal Alcohol Monitoring Tags ...... 25 Access Rights for Grandparents ...... 26 Management of Offenders (Scotland) Act 2019 (Implementation) ...... 27 Scottish Fire and Rescue Service (Investment) ...... 29 Drug Supply Routes (Police Surveillance) ...... 30 Children (Scotland) Bill (Engagement) ...... 31 NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE ...... 32 Motion moved—[Monica Lennon]. Amendment moved—[]. Amendment moved—[Miles Briggs]. Monica Lennon (Central Scotland) (Lab) ...... 32 The Cabinet Secretary for Health and Sport (Jeane Freeman) ...... 36 Miles Briggs () (Con) ...... 40 Alison Johnstone (Lothian) (Green)...... 43 Alex Cole-Hamilton (Edinburgh Western) (LD) ...... 46 Jackie Baillie () (Lab) ...... 49 Emma Harper (South Scotland) (SNP) ...... 51 Annie Wells (Glasgow) (Con) ...... 54 Stuart McMillan (Greenock and ) (SNP) ...... 56 Anas Sarwar (Glasgow) (Lab) ...... 59 Gillian Martin (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) ...... 61 Edward Mountain (Highlands and Islands) (Con) ...... 63 John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) ...... 65 Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) ...... 68 George Adam (Paisley) (SNP) ...... 70 Jeremy Balfour (Lothian) (Con) ...... 72 James Dornan (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) ...... 74 Brian Whittle (South Scotland) (Con) ...... 76 The Minister for Mental Health (Clare Haughey) ...... 79 Sarah Boyack (Lothian) (Lab) ...... 82 BUSINESS MOTIONS ...... 86 Motions moved—[Graeme Dey]—and agreed to. PARLIAMENTARY BUREAU MOTIONS ...... 89 Motions moved—[Graeme Dey]. DECISION TIME ...... 90

PREHISTORIC ROCK ART ...... 97 Motion debated—[Gil Paterson]. Gil Paterson ( and Milngavie) (SNP) ...... 97 Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) ...... 100 Maurice Corry (West Scotland) (Con) ...... 101 Claire Baker (Mid Scotland and ) (Lab) ...... 103 (Banffshire and Coast) (SNP) ...... 105 The Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Fair Work and Culture (Fiona Hyslop) ...... 106

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the ban was implemented and the prevalence of Scottish Parliament smoking has decreased. However, the Scottish schools adolescent lifestyle and substance use Wednesday 19 February 2020 survey shows that smoking prevalence rates among 13 and 15-year-olds have flatlined since [The Deputy Presiding Officer opened the 2015, with 12 per cent of 15-year-olds and 4 per meeting at 13:15] cent of 13-year-olds smoking regularly or occasionally. Smoking Ban (Play Parks and That was the starting point for my desire to bring Outdoor Sports Facilities) about positive change and for us in this Parliament to take additional steps. I saw the excellent work The Deputy Presiding Officer (Christine that was done in my Welsh homeland in 2016, Grahame): Good afternoon. The first item of which inspired me to think about implementing the business is a members’ business debate on same changes in Scotland. motion S5M-20554, in the name of Rachael I want to recap on where we are today. Through Hamilton, on a smoking ban for play parks and parliamentary questions, I established that the outdoor sports facilities. The debate will be Smoking, Health and Social Care (Scotland) Act concluded without any question being put. 2005 does not cover play parks or outdoor sports Motion debated, facilities. I was given assurances by the Minister for Public Health, Sport and Wellbeing, Joe That the Parliament notes the view that Scotland should ban smoking in play parks, outdoor sports facilities and FitzPatrick, that, as part of its 2018 action plan, the other similar outdoor areas; understands that section 4 of Scottish Government would monitor the smoking the Smoking, Health and Social Care (Scotland) Act 2005 ban in Wales before taking additional action. does not provide powers to do so; acknowledges that the Welsh Government introduced the Public Health (Wales) I was advised by the Scottish Parliament Act 2017, which imposes a ban there on smoking in these information centre that it could be possible to add types of places; believes that such a ban in Scotland would a category to the list of no-smoking premises in improve public health, especially in helping to alleviate the the 2005 act. However, in the previous effects of passive smoking on children in the Borders and parliamentary session, when Jim Hume introduced across the country, and notes the calls for the Scottish Government to legislate accordingly. a member’s bill to prohibit smoking in vehicles in which children were present, the approach was taken of creating a standalone piece of legislation 13:15 that did not amend the 2005 act in any way—it Rachael Hamilton (Ettrick, Roxburgh and simply created a new offence. As we are fast Berwickshire) (Con): I thank all the members approaching 2021, I regret that there is simply not who signed my motion and those who will enough time for me to introduce a member’s bill contribute to today’s debate. I also thank Alison and take that approach. Johnstone, who has sent her apologies—she is I then looked at section 4 of the 2005 act, which convening a cross-party group meeting. She allows the Scottish ministers to define by supported my motion and is sorry not to be here. regulations what is covered by the term “no- We are all too aware of the effects of smoking smoking premises”. Such premises must be and passive smoking. Smoking damages the “wholly or substantially enclosed”. They must also lungs of the smoker and the smoke that is inhaled meet one or more other criteria, one of which is by people near the smoker causes passive that the public or a section of the public has smoking damage. Today, I want to focus on the access to the premises; others are that the damage that smoking causes to children and premises are a place of work, are used by a club young people in particular. or informal association, or are used for education or health or care services. There is a strong evidence base that suggests that the implementation of smoke-free Accordingly, ministers can, through regulations environments can contribute to a reduction in under section 4 of the 2005 act, ban smoking in smoking rates across populations. As maintaining any workplace, public place, school or hospital, smoke-free areas in certain outdoor and indoor but only if the place in question is “wholly or places can discourage smoking behaviour in substantially enclosed”. The regulations can general, making more places smoke free could further define what is meant by “wholly or have a positive impact on adult smoking figures. substantially enclosed”. It is our understanding that, so far, that has been defined to mean closed On 26 March 2006, Scotland became the first in by walls and a roof, which means that entirely place in the United Kingdom to make it an offence outdoor areas could not be classed as “no- to smoke in any wholly or substantially enclosed smoking premises”. However, it might be possible public space. Fourteen years have passed since for ministers to make regulations that ban smoking

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in play parks based on a revised definition of A simple change to a definition in the Smoking, “wholly or substantially enclosed”, which could, for Health and Social Care (Scotland) Act 2005 would example, include an area of grass that is enclosed ensure that play parks, playgrounds and outdoor by a fence. sports facilities are brought into line and made smoke free. A simple consultation with the After that long-winded explanation of how I got relevant stakeholders could be carried out, after to this point, I look forward to hearing from the which the relevant definition change could be Minister for Parliamentary Business and Veterans made. As I have said, when defining such public about the calls on the Scottish Government to places, it is right that we turn to the successful consider changing the definition of “wholly or 2017 Welsh act. substantially enclosed” in order to enact change. The motivation behind my call today aligns with When we change the definition, it is right that we the broader aims of the Scottish Government to look at Wales, where that has been done have a smoke-free generation by 2034 and to successfully. In part 3 of the Public Health (Wales) prevent the harmful effects of passive smoking. I Act 2017, an entire section—section 12—relates hope that the public will understand my directly to the banning of smoking in play parks motivations for restricting smoking in particular and playgrounds. I have a copy of the bill with me. areas and that they will respect playgrounds as There are clear definitions of what play parks, much as they would places that are covered by playgrounds and school grounds are. In Wales, it no-smoking legislation. We know that making play is illegal for people to smoke on hospital grounds, parks and outdoor sports facilities smoke free school grounds and playgrounds, with those who would help to de-normalise smoking for children flout the law facing fines. and young people, as the environment in which Turning closer to home, I note that there has children grow up strongly influences whether they already been positive action to stop smoking in are likely to smoke when they are older. play parks and in other outdoor areas in Scotland. I could go on, but I have no time left. The measures, which have been successful, are voluntary in nature. Many local authorities have embraced smoke-free play parks, albeit without 13:23 there being enforcement powers in legislation. Do Kenneth Gibson (Cunninghame North) not get me wrong: that is a good place to start. (SNP): I congratulate Rachael Hamilton on Dundee City Council, for example, created a code bringing this important issue to the chamber. under which the public complies voluntarily with a smoking ban, with a request not to smoke in As members might be aware, since I first particular areas. The code does not ban smoking became an MSP more than 20 years ago, I have outright, but it sets best practice. Children and taken a keen interest in reducing the harm that young people have already engaged positively smoking causes. In July 2001, I proposed a with the voluntary bans. Creating smoke-free regulation of smoking bill, with strong support from zones and encouraging more local authorities to colleagues across the chamber—notably, from campaign accordingly would be a positive initial Labour’s Dr Richard Simpson, the Conservative’s step. Bill Aitken and the Liberal Democrat’s Robert Brown. After 2003, my proposal was progressed In my constituency, I have the support of the by and, ultimately, by the Scottish Council, and I will work with Executive, which led to the Smoking, Health and councillors and local schools later this year to Social Care (Scotland) Act 2005. create a competition to design signs that can be displayed in play parks to discourage people from Unfortunately, about 1.1 million people in smoking and to encourage them to adhere to a Scotland still smoke. In 2017—the last year for voluntary ban. which figures are available—there were 9,332 smoking-related deaths compared with 1,136 I believe there to be substantial cross-party alcohol-specific deaths and 1,187 drug-related support on the issue. I very much thank ASH deaths in 2018. Although the number of smoking- Scotland and other organisations that have related deaths has declined by about 30 per cent supported me for today’s debate. I want to be over the past two decades, tobacco still kills about clear: I do not want to stigmatise smokers, nor do I one in six Scots, which is shocking. Furthermore, want the state to deny people the right to smoke. there are 128,000 smoking-related hospital To simply call it a ban would throw up negative admissions a year in Scotland—that is 2,500 a connotations. It is about sending the right week, 250 a day or 15 an hour. message—a positive message—to our children. Politicians should bring people along with us on Cigarette smoke contains more than 4,500 the journey to a smoke-free Scotland. compounds, including: acetaldehyde, which is a carcinogen; acetone, which damages the liver and

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kidneys; and ammonia, which is a cause of Despite its vehement denials, the tobacco asthma and high blood pressure. industry targets young people. It is vital that, wherever possible, cigarettes and smoking should Smoke-free spaces bring many benefits to be out of sight and out of mind for our children. children and adults, particularly because other people’s smoke is much more than a nuisance—it I hope that we can all commit to help raise has serious health risks. Scotland’s tobacco-free generation and to ensure that children’s play areas and outdoor sports Living with a smoker increases a non-smoker’s facilities are free of the scourge of tobacco. Again, chance of developing lung cancer by 20 to 30 per I thank Rachael Hamilton for bringing this cent. Children are more vulnerable to second- important matter to the Parliament. hand smoke, because their lungs are still growing and their immune systems are not fully developed; they are also at greater risk from toxins in cigarette 13:27 smoke. Tragically, it is estimated that second-hand Brian Whittle (South Scotland) (Con): I thank smoke exposure in Scottish children causes, my colleague Rachael Hamilton for bringing this among other problems, at least 2,000 new cases debate before Parliament. As she said, there is of wheeze and asthma a year and one in five of all support across all political divides for what she is cot deaths. trying to do. This Parliament is rightly proud of the I am proud of the work that it has led on the workplace smoking ban. Government’s track record and the action that it As Kenny Gibson said, that ban is being extended has taken to stub out smoking, but we must do into hospital grounds, which is long overdue. more. However, when we quote the overall reduction Scotland is among the first countries in the in smoking, we need to look behind the figures. I world to set a target of being tobacco free by was alarmed by recent statistics that indicate that, 2034. For years, the SNP Government has taken for the first time since the ban, there might be a important steps to protect young people from the small increase in smoking. When we look behind harm of smoking—notably, in 2007, milestone the reduction that there has been since the legislation raised the minimum age for buying smoking ban was introduced, it is worth noting tobacco from 16 to 18. Tobacco sports that, in the highest Scottish index of multiple sponsorship was banned 15 years ago, and it is deprivation quintile, only 9 per cent of people now unthinkable for any high-profile team to be smoke, but in the lowest SIMD quintile, the figure brand ambassadors for tobacco. sits at 34 per cent. Places where children play should be free from I looked over the notes that I took a while ago, the stain of tobacco. For years, the Chartered when I was working with ASH on a report. As Institute of Environmental Health has said that Kenny Gibson said, around 1 million Scots still smoking should be banned in all parks and smoke. My figures showed that, annually, around anywhere that children play, in order to reduce the 10,000 people die of smoke-related diseases. If chances of them growing up thinking that using we could tackle that and make inroads into that cigarettes is normal. figure, it would save the Scottish national health service an estimated £100 million. The biggest stat A YouGov poll, which the institute for me is that it would also save the poorest 20 per commissioned in 2016, found that 89 per cent of cent £100 million. It is worth mentioning that, 4,300 adults who were surveyed backed a ban on because we are always discussing the smoking in children’s play areas and that 57 per sustainability of funding our NHS, the preventable cent wanted an end to smoking in public parks. health agenda and the steps that we could take to I am delighted that, this year, as the latest in a lift people out of poverty. long line of progressive and bold policies to protect The statistics that I was looking at say that such people from the harm that it causes, smoking will a measure would save 1 million sick days that are no longer be permitted around hospital buildings. lost to business because of ill health related to There is always more that we can do to protect smoking conditions. It would also save 1 million people, particularly children and young adults, working hours lost in productivity due to smoking from smoking. breaks, and if those hours were then offered for Two thirds of adult smokers in the UK say that participation in physical activity, the health of the they started smoking regularly before the age of nation would greatly improve, and productivity 18 and two fifths say they started before the age of would skyrocket. It is not necessarily about 16. In fact, so few adults start smoking that 99 per reclaiming the time that people use for smoking cent of first cigarettes are smoked before the age breaks; it is about reallocating it to something that of 26. would be more beneficial.

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We recognise where the next piece of work inequalities caused by smoking and her desire to needs to take place. Rachael Hamilton focused on see further improvements. the practical legislative requirements that need to In 2016, the Scottish Parliament took further be met before we can get to the next stage. We all steps, by banning smoking in a car if a child is recognise that passive smoking has a bad effect present. That was another welcome move, and on children’s health. evidence from England and Wales, where the That brings me to Rachael Hamilton’s motion. legislation was first introduced, and from Scotland Much work has been done on curtailing tobacco shows that the ban has worked and has led to sponsorship and advertising, so I have been fewer children being exposed to cigarette smoke. thinking about marketing and what the main In Wales, the Welsh Government has now influences are. For children, one of the main legislated to expand the smoking ban to play influences on smoking uptake will be seeing their parks, playgrounds and outdoor sports facilities parents or peers smoking. That is the inadvertent where children might be playing or participating in marketing tool that is working to the benefit of the sport. I believe that that is the next stop in tobacco companies. It is therefore entirely logical delivering a smoke-free Scotland. to extend the smoking ban to places where we are promoting a healthy lifestyle and opportunities for John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP): family interaction—play parks, outdoor sports Vaping has not been mentioned today. Does the facilities and activity sites. I cannot see how there member think that it should be treated differently can be any resistance to such a suggestion. It from how smoking is treated? comes down to the practicalities and how we David Stewart: It is certainly worth having a would legislate, so I am interested to hear the Scottish Government’s position on that. Is it an look at it. There has been long debate about extension to the legislation that we have not quite vaping. Some critics have argued that it should also be banned because it can cause serious got around to yet? If there is no resistance, why do health issues. As a member of the Health and we not just get it done? Sport Committee, I would certainly welcome any thoughts that Mr Mason might have on such an 13:32 important subject. David Stewart (Highlands and Islands) (Lab): Despite those very positive steps, smoking I congratulate Rachael Hamilton on securing this remains a significant public health issue in important debate. As the member has already Scotland and it is a leading cause of preventable ill acknowledged, there is clearly broad support health, premature death and disability. All the across this chamber for a change in the law and evidence shows that tobacco use has clear links for increasing the protection from the damaging with inequality, and therefore with health effects of smoking that is afforded to Scotland’s inequalities, which the Parliament must work to young people. tackle if we are serious about improving public The Scottish Parliament has a strong record of health outcomes. taking action on smoking and seeking to improve We heard from Brian Whittle that smoking rates public health outcomes. The previous Scottish are still the highest in the most disadvantaged Labour-led Administration introduced the Smoking, areas: 35 per cent of people living in the most Health and Social Care (Scotland) Act 2005, which deprived areas of Scotland smoke, compared to established that, from 26 March 2006, it would be 10 per cent of those living in the least deprived an offence to smoke in any wholly or substantially areas. In my region, the Highlands and Islands, enclosed public space in Scotland, with a small recent Scottish index of multiple deprivation number of exceptions. I acknowledge Kenneth statistics ranked parts of Merkinch in Inverness as Gibson’s contribution to the origins and creation of being among the most deprived communities in that legislation. Scotland. I have a certain affinity with Merkinch, That was groundbreaking legislation. Scotland because I grew up and went to school there. became the first part of the United Kingdom to That means increased ill health and reduced life legislate for a smoking ban, with England and expectancy for far too many people. Part of the Wales following our lead the following year. It is route to reducing inequalities is cutting smoking worth remembering that, when that vote took place rates and encouraging active living and significant here in 2005, it passed by 83 to 15, with only the lifestyle changes. The link between poverty and Scottish Conservatives opposing the legislation. smoking is stark and we should note the work that However, I believe in sinners repenting. I am organisations such as the Poverty Alliance are pleased that they brought the motion to Parliament doing in conjunction with ASH Scotland to better today, and I am pleased to see Rachael Hamilton support the collaboration between public health now acknowledging the health and social and antipoverty interests.

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Although compliance with the current smoking age of 18 came into force in Scotland in 2016, and restrictions in Scotland is high, policing the people caught breaking the new law face a fine of introduction of a smoking ban in areas such as up to £1,000. Public awareness of the dangers of play parks would be considerably more smoking has greatly reduced the risk to children, challenging. Any changes in the law would require with fewer parents smoking in the home and a comprehensive compliance strategy and a public around non-smokers. I suspect that any right- education programme to be put in place. thinking parent who smokes would have the sense not to smoke around children, and I would be The World Health Organization has described interested to see whether there has been any clean air as a basic human right and has said: research on that. “Scientific evidence has unequivocally established that exposure to tobacco smoke causes death, disease and However, despite the hugely successful disability.” Smoking, Health and Social Care (Scotland) Act 2005, which we have heard about and which Just 30 minutes of exposure to tobacco smoke prohibited smoking in enclosed public spaces, changes the way that blood flows and clots, which smoking remains the most significant cause of ill increases the risk of heart attack and stroke. health in Scotland. There are up to 100,000 Second-hand smoke kills more than 600,000 hospitalisations per year and more than 9,000 people globally every year and, in many countries, premature deaths as a result of smoking. We must it causes more than 10 per cent of all tobacco- protect our children from the effects of passive related deaths. smoking and the perceived normality that it is okay Despite the progress and the increase in public for adults to smoke around children in their play awareness of the damages of smoking that have areas, which is why I support Rachael Hamilton’s been made over the past decade, the challenge motion. remains as real and as stark as ever. The motion As has been mentioned, last month saw the is welcome and it offers an opportunity for the closure of a consultation on smoking outside Parliament to demonstrate that we are willing to hospital buildings. The Health (Tobacco, Nicotine build on the work that has already been done to etc and Care) (Scotland) Act 2016, which prevent the damage that smoking causes society amended sections of 2005 act, introduced and to take further and bolder action to improve offences in that area. Although the guidelines that public health, protect our young people and, have been issued to hospitals to stop smoking in ultimately, move towards a smokeless society. I and around hospital buildings are partially congratulate Rachael Hamilton for the excellent effective, they are not being strictly adhered to, so motion and the debate. the consultation asked whether legislation should be brought in to create a legally enforceable 13:37 offence. Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) As I understand it, the 2005 act gives the (SNP): I thank Rachael Hamilton for bringing this Scottish ministers the power to introduce important debate to the chamber. secondary legislation to prevent smoking in play Children have a right to play, as enshrined in parks and outdoor sports facilities. Rachael article 31 of the United Nations Convention on the Hamilton outlined suggestions as to how that Rights of the Child. We all know that play teaches could be done. I would support that, subject to our children social skills: how to compromise, be scrutiny of the effectiveness of the measure south tolerant and be resilient. Play is the universal of the border and how it is policed. As Rachael language of childhood. I believe that children must Hamilton’s motion states, the Welsh Government be able to play safely, and that means without the introduced the Public Health (Wales) Act 2017, risk of being affected by passive smoking. We which imposes a ban on smoking outdoors in know that passive smoking is especially harmful to areas where children play or participate in sport. children, because they have less well-developed That is a good model to look at. airways, lungs and immune systems. Children who We want Scotland to be the best place in the live in a household where at least one person world for children to grow up. The Scottish smokes are more likely to develop asthma and Government has introduced groundbreaking chest infections such as pneumonia and initiatives such as the baby box, the best start bronchitis. The bottom line is that smoking is grant and much more. Any future legislation would dangerous—we know that. It is dangerous for be a natural extension of our intention to promote those who smoke and for those who inhale other healthy lifestyles and wellbeing in future people’s smoke on a regular basis, particularly generations by protecting them from the harmful children. effects of passive smoking. Scotland’s children As Rachael Hamilton mentioned, a law making it have the right to be able to play without illegal to smoke in a car with anyone under the endangering their health.

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13:41 our laws are soon to be extended to include a The Minister for Parliamentary Business and smoke-free perimeter around NHS hospital Veterans (Graeme Dey): I thank Rachael buildings. It is logical that we should go further and Hamilton for securing the debate and so allowing target smoking in and around play parks and us to hear members’ thoughts on an important outdoor sporting facilities. The main reason for issue on which there is largely consensus. play park restrictions and hospital building legislation is to remove the visibility of smoking. As a society, we have made considerable The restrictions do not focus on harm, because progress on smoking prevention. Figures from smoke quickly dissipates in open air, which 2018 showed that 19 per cent of adults in Scotland minimises the risk. They are actually about were smokers, which of course is still too high, but reducing the normalisation of the activity. it is a big improvement on the figures of 28 per cent in 2003 and almost 34 per cent in 1998. That said, the Scottish Government has no Among youngsters, the number of 15-year-olds immediate proposals to legislate further on who smoke regularly has dropped by more than smoking outdoors, not least because many local two thirds in the past decade. authorities already have restrictions on smoking around playgrounds in parks and other areas. In People are getting the message, but we are not particular, Scotland’s two biggest cities— letting up. Annually, health boards are provided Edinburgh and Glasgow—have policies in place. with around £10 million in funding to deliver local In Edinburgh, the smoke-free policy has resulted stop-smoking services. We continue to work in smoking restrictions being extended from the tirelessly towards our target of reducing smoking workplace and vehicles to surrounding areas, for prevalence to 5 per cent or less by 2034, to tackle council properties. The rules include entrances, inequalities and to address the risks around the car parks and play areas. use of e-cigarettes. We have worked with our partners in local government and others to Brian Whittle: Graeme Dey says, quite rightly, develop a set of jointly agreed and owned public that there are councils that are leading the way. health priorities for Scotland, which focus the However, does he agree that it should be for the whole system on the things that have the greatest Scottish Government to lead from the top, or the potential to improve healthy life expectancy. front, and to deliver such policies around the whole of Scotland? One of our key priorities is focused on reducing the use of, and harm from, tobacco and other Graeme Dey: I will continue to expand on my drugs. The public health priorities, which are explanation, but, in general, what Brian Whittle informed by the best available evidence, are referred to is the direction of travel that we need to based on partnership working and engagement be heading in. However, there are some with the wider public and the third sector, and of complications, which I will come to in a minute. course local authorities. It is important that we Glasgow City Council has a policy to ban work together in partnership as part of a whole- smoking in children’s playgrounds, where notices system approach that delivers real improvements are displayed to prohibit smoking. Such in the nation’s health and wellbeing. restrictions are replicated in most local authority Although much has been achieved, we cannot areas. be complacent or lose sight of the fact that In response to what I have been asked today, smoking remains one of the most damaging my initial reaction is that separate primary contributors to Scotland’s poor health record. If we legislation would be required to address the are to succeed and achieve our ultimate goal of a matter. Rachael Hamilton suggested changing the non-smoking Scotland, we need to keep moving definition of “enclosed” to provide a means to get the agenda forward on all fronts. We need to find around the problem. However—I am sure that new ways to engage with harder-to-reach groups members will recognise what I am about to say— and to step up efforts to prevent children and lawyers would undoubtedly tell us that the young people from starting in the first place. The definition of “enclosed” is commonly recognised tobacco control action plan is aimed at doing just and is drawn from other relevant pieces of that. The measures that are set out in the plan legislation. If we were to move to change the leave no one in any doubt that we are determined definition, that would have to be proportionate, for to continue to be a world leader in tobacco control. legal reasons. For example, saying that “enclosed” Sadly, health inequalities between Scots in was the same as “fenced off” would be affluent areas and those in deprived areas are disproportionate, as it could capture vast areas. I widening, which Brian Whittle touched on. It is say all that not to provide reasons not to act, but to clear that we need to be innovative if we are to offer a degree of perspective. drive down smoking rates across the board in Our focus in the current tobacco control action order to reach the 2034 target. I am pleased that plan is to address health inequalities and cut

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smoking rates in the communities where people were given. We need to look at both aspects and find it most difficult to quit. We are committed to also recognise, as I said a moment ago, that it is conducting a public information campaign on that highly unlikely that there will be capacity to subject. legislate in the current parliamentary session. However, it is a direction of travel that needs to be Since 2006, the Scottish Government has been looked at. encouraging local government to restrict smoking, wherever possible, around schools, playgrounds, On taking account of the Welsh experience and outdoor sports facilities and play parks. Smoke- the success of the guidance, any decisions that free local authority implementation guidance was we take as a Parliament on the introduction of any published in 2017 to support councils to implement new approaches or legislation should always be their policies for publicly owned sites, which taken on the basis of robust evidence. We should means delivering smoke-free buildings and also look at appropriateness and effectiveness. grounds and outlining the responsibilities of It is quite clear that, in principle, not a great deal partner organisations. To be clear, the guidance separates any of us on the issue. I thank Rachael covers schools, playgrounds, nurseries, day Hamilton for securing the debate. I suspect that it centres, parks, local authority premises and other is a topic to which we will return. grounds. As Rachael Hamilton pointed out, my colleague Joe FitzPatrick, the Minister for Public Health, 13:50 Sport and Wellbeing, has said publicly that we are Meeting suspended. supportive of the Welsh approach and that we will monitor it. However, to be clear, as I understand it, the terms of the Welsh act are still to be fully implemented. Partly because of Brexit pressures, there is no definitive timetable in place for bringing the regulations forward. Therefore, we have not yet been able to take the Welsh experience into account. Again, I offer that not as an excuse, but as a recognition of the facts. Our action plan states that we will monitor the implementation of smoking bans in Wales and the implementation of guidance that is produced by the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and NHS Health Scotland to assess whether legislation is needed here. As parliamentary business minister, I note in passing how incredibly well populated the legislative landscape is between now and dissolution. It is populated by not only Scottish Government bills but a large number of members’ bills and committee bills, so it is unlikely that we will be in a position to legislate in this parliamentary session. Rachael Hamilton: I understand what Graeme Dey says about the restrictions to changing the definition of “enclosed” and possibly having to introduce primary legislation. However, the issue goes back to 2017. Joe FitzPatrick stated that he would look at monitoring the implementation of the guidelines that were issued to local authorities in 2017, so it has been rumbling on for quite a long time. I have received no indication of how that implementation has been going. Graeme Dey: As I touched on in my speech, yes, there was a commitment, but it sat in tandem with a commitment to look at what was happening in practice in Wales. Bringing those two things together has not yet been possible. I stress again that I say that not to deflect or ignore what is an important issue. Those were the commitments that

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14:00 Lives”, and we are working to complete the second strategic transport projects review. The A9 On resuming— north of Inverness is part of consideration in the Portfolio Question Time STPR2 process, which will determine the Government’s priorities for future transport investment, including for the northern parts of the Transport, Infrastructure and A9. Connectivity Jamie Halcro Johnston (Highlands and The Deputy Presiding Officer (Christine Islands) (Con): I met electric vehicle users in Grahame): The next item of business is portfolio Orkney on Monday, and they raised concerns questions. As usual, short questions and snappy about the lack of charging points on the A9. There answers would be very helpful. Transport, is also concern that existing charging points are infrastructure and connectivity questions 4 and 5 often single points that are unavailable because have been grouped together. I will first take those they are being used by other drivers or are, in questions with the supplementary questions that some cases, broken. Given that that infrastructure are included in the group, and will then take any is essential, what plans are there to improve further supplementaries. availability of electric vehicle charging points, in particular in remote and rural areas, such as are found across my region? A9 (Electronic Signage) The Deputy Presiding Officer: That question 1. (, and was a little wide of the mark, but the cabinet Ross) (SNP): To ask the Scottish Government secretary looks ready to answer. when electronic signage will be installed along the A9, north of Inverness. (S5O-04121) Michael Matheson: I do not know whether we have any electric signage for charging points, but I The Cabinet Secretary for Transport, can say that we have an extensive car charging Infrastructure and Connectivity (Michael network across Scotland. Jamie Halcro Johnston Matheson): Transport Scotland has four existing might acknowledge that Scotland has the most variable message signs on the A9 north of extensive public charging network in the United Inverness. Two cover the southbound approach to Kingdom outside central London. We are building the Kessock bridge, one is on the northbound on that to ensure that we increase the number of carriageway approaching Helmsdale, and the charging points that are available for low- fourth is on the southbound carriageway beside emissions and electric vehicles. That includes Georgemas Junction railway station. As part of the work that we are taking forward with local authority national high-wind management strategy, partners—including in the Highlands, Orkney, Transport Scotland will install an initial phase of Shetland, the Western Isles and other areas four additional variable message signs to cover across the country—through the substantial the approaches to both the Dornoch Firth and the investment that we are making to support people Cromarty Firth bridges. They are planned for to move to low-carbon and electric vehicles. installation in spring 2020. Gail Ross: The Scottish National Party has Road Safety (Rural Areas) committed to upgrading that lifeline road, and improvements are well under way at Berriedale, 2. Oliver Mundell (Dumfriesshire) (Con): To with the new road being due to open this spring. ask the Scottish Government what action it is However, will the Scottish Government commit to taking to improve road safety around schools in further improvements to ensure that other rural areas. (S5O-04122) notorious sections of the A9—the Tomich junction, The Cabinet Secretary for Transport, the Tain section and the Cambusavie bends, for Infrastructure and Connectivity (Michael example—are safe and fit for the 21st century? Matheson): The Scottish Government is Michael Matheson: The safety of the trunk road committed to achieving safer road travel in network is assessed annually, and programmes of Scotland for all, including around schools. It interventions are developed and delivered where it provides funding to local authorities to create new is expected that particular locations could benefit or improved infrastructure, including around and there is evidence to support investment to schools, through the places for everyone improve safety. As part of that programme, work is programme. on-going at Tain to improve junctions on the Transport Scotland funds Cycling Scotland to bypass, and the proposals are the subject of on- deliver bikeability training, which is available to all going engagement with stakeholders in the area. schools. Additionally, Road Safety Scotland has We have published “National Transport developed online learning resources for three to Strategy: Protecting our Climate and Improving

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18-year-olds, which is particularly useful for school That was disgraceful of me. Please ask your teachers. supplementary. In accordance with local authorities’ statutory Claudia Beamish: I do not know about responsibility for local roads, it is for them to “disgraceful”. Thank you for letting me in. consider the most appropriate measures to Since the start of December, about 4 per cent of safeguard schoolchildren in their areas. services on Stagecoach’s 101 and 102 services, Oliver Mundell: As local parents are, I am which run from Dumfries to Edinburgh, have been concerned that Council is delayed due to mechanical and operational issues. systematically ignoring its obligations in relation to What can be done to ensure that there is robust rural schools. At Duncow primary school, there regulation, such that timetabled rural bus services have for years been broken flashing signs on a are provided unless there are exceptional 60mph-limit road, and at Hottsbridge primary circumstances that are outwith the operator’s school large volumes of lorry traffic have been control? forced to drive past the school daily as a result of Will the cabinet secretary consider extending a long-term road closure. Will the cabinet the parameters of what is covered by bus secretary ask transport officials to approach the regulation to include reasonable levels of comfort, local authority to see what more can be done to such as adequate temperature control, sufficient support them to ensure that we do not have a very seating and adequate shelter at bus stops? serious accident? Michael Matheson: Claudia Beamish has Michael Matheson: I am more than happy to raised an issue that is largely an operational ask my road safety colleagues in Transport matter for Stagecoach, with regard to the Scotland to contact the local authority on those mechanical nature of the fleet that it uses, which of matters. Oliver Mundell is right to highlight safety course needs to comply with the regulations that issues, but that does not remove the statutory have been set down by the traffic commissioner. It responsibility of the local authority to take the might be that the issues that she has concerns appropriate measures. I encourage him to about can be addressed by the commissioner, or continue to press the local authority and its she could go to Bus Users Scotland, which we executive leaders to make sure that they take the fund and which helps to support people who have appropriate measures to address the safety issues concerns about bus services. However, the that he is concerned about. practical operation of the bus is a matter for the operator. Claudia Beamish could address some of Rural Bus Routes (South Scotland) the issues through the commissioner, who might 3. Claudia Beamish (South Scotland) (Lab): be able to assist in addressing some of those To ask the Scottish Government what its position concerns. is on reported rural bus route reductions in South Joan McAlpine (South Scotland) (SNP): I Scotland. (S5O-04123) welcome the budget’s £83 million investment in The Cabinet Secretary for Transport, the future transport fund. Can the cabinet Infrastructure and Connectivity (Michael secretary outline how local authorities will be able Matheson): We recognise the vital importance to apply for and make use of the funding? that bus services have for millions of Scots across Michael Matheson: The future transport fund the country, especially those who, for whatever will have £83 million, as is set out in the draft reason, do not have access to cars or live in budget. It will support a range of low-carbon places that are not served by the rail network. programmes and projects, including initiatives to Bus usage has been declining across the support the transition to deployment of zero- country over many decades. Rural areas present emissions buses on local routes. distinct challenges for delivering viable local bus The programme for Government also set out our services. Local authorities and regional transport commitment to take forward our Scottish ultra-low- partners already have powers to secure additional emissions bus scheme—it is open for applications services to meet local needs, and we are and bids can be made between now and 27 extending the range of options that are available to February—to support the industry to move to low- them through the Transport Scotland Act 2019, carbon buses. which received royal assent towards the end of last year. The fund will also support the development of cycling infrastructure through the places for The Deputy Presiding Officer: Two members, everyone programme, which is administered by Finlay Carson and Joan McAlpine, have Sustrans, and improved bus-priority infrastructure, supplementaries—[Interruption.] Oh! Have I not which includes consideration of how the new bus asked Claudia Beamish for her supplementary? partnership fund can be used by local authorities

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to develop proposals that they might consider for We are looking forward and will ensure that we their areas. The fund covers a number of different take full account of the need to decarbonise ferry areas. Local authorities and other organisations travel for passengers and vehicles as we develop can contact Transport Scotland and look to make our future ferries plan and the vessel replacement applications with regard to the various aspects of and deployment plan. the fund. On procurement, I remind the member that we Finlay Carson (Galloway and West Dumfries) are supporting a very important business in (Con): Can the cabinet secretary outline what Inverclyde. I appreciate that his party are discussions, if any, he has had with Dumfries and supportive of that, but I hope that it recognises Galloway Council about establishing a local bus that, in awarding the work to the yard, which is a service franchise? Can he also outline what good yard, we will ultimately see good vessels support the Scottish Government can provide to being delivered, notwithstanding the challenges local authorities if it is their intention to improve that we had with previous management. rural bus services in that manner?

Michael Matheson: Any intention in Dumfries Ferry Procurement (Competition and Markets and Galloway Council to establish a franchise Authority) would be a matter for elected members of that council. Transport Scotland officials can give them 5. Jeremy Balfour (Lothian) (Con): To ask the advice on the legislation that is in place, but that Scottish Government what its response is to the would be a matter for the council to take forward. Competition and Markets Authority’s analysis of its handling of ferry contracts and the potential effect Transport Procurement (Processes and that has on future procurement. (S5O-04125) Criteria) The Minister for Energy, Connectivity and 4. Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) the Islands (): The Competition (Lab): To ask the Scottish Government whether it and Markets Authority's paper is not an analysis of has reviewed its transport procurement processes our handling of ferry contracts; rather, it notes the and criteria, in the light of recent issues relating to CMA’s view on competition in the future ferry contracts. (S5O-04124) procurement of vessels. The Minister for Energy, Connectivity and Jeremy Balfour: I am sure that we can all the Islands (Paul Wheelhouse): The Scottish agree on the importance of securing Scotland’s Government continually reviews its procurement shipbuilding industry. However, does the minister processes and levels of governance for major also agree that the disastrous mismanagement by infrastructure and vessel investment projects. the Scottish National Party that we have seen at Ferguson Marine is not sustainable? Daniel Johnson: The ferries that are being procured through Ferguson Marine raise serious Paul Wheelhouse: I am glad that Mr Balfour is questions regarding oversight and governance. not a member of the judiciary, because it is We need answers from the Government on why it customary at an inquiry to hear the evidence from has decided to build two dual-fuel ferries that witnesses before coming to conclusions. As I said CalMac Ferries apparently did not want. There are in my response to Mr Johnson, we fundamentally questions about whether the ferries’ propulsion disagree with that assessment of the situation, and systems are appropriate for the distance of the my colleagues and I are prepared to defend our routes and whether the design specification was position when we come before the committee as properly signed off. Either the procurement part of its inquiry. We will respect the results that process was deficient, or it was not followed. come from the inquiry. Which of those does the minister think it is? Not all of Mr Balfour’s colleagues have Paul Wheelhouse: Mr Johnson is obviously previously expressed support for shipbuilding in trying to get in ahead of the committee inquiry, Inverclyde; not all of them have previously agreed which I am pleased to be taking part in. with that position. I am glad to see a sign that the Unfortunately, the date on which I will appear has Conservative Party is, perhaps, beginning to now been moved back by the committee. I will support the shipbuilding industry after decades of look to answer all of the questions that are raised neglect. with me at the appropriate time. Stuart McMillan (Greenock and Inverclyde) I do not agree with Mr Johnson’s assertions (SNP): The Law Society of Scotland has stated about the design of the vessels. We believe that that importance has to be placed not only on the vessels are of a good design for the services financial and commercial matters but on ensuring that they will provide. Clearly, we are trying to that procurement move to decarbonise the fleet and dual-fuel “takes full account of other relevant considerations”. propulsion systems are one means of doing that.

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Can the minister give an indication of some of the 4G infill programme in Aberdeenshire. (S5O- wider benefits that the recent issues relating to 04126) ferry contracts will have on the 300 jobs and on The Minister for Energy, Connectivity and the local economy that the shipyard, which is in the Islands (Paul Wheelhouse): We are making my constituency, supports? good progress with the 4G mobile infill Paul Wheelhouse: As Mr McMillan will know— programme. Thirteen masts have been built or are because he has been closely engaged throughout under construction and I am pleased to be able to the process, since 2014—our efforts saved advise the Parliament that the mast at New Luce Ferguson Marine from closure. As he said, we in Galloway went live last weekend. rescued more than 300 jobs. We also ensured that Unfortunately, progress has been slower at the the two vessels that are under construction will be two candidate sites that were identified in completed, and secured a future for the yard. The Aberdeenshire: Pennan and Collieston. No alternative was to walk away. That was confirmed interest has yet been expressed by any unpalatable for us and we were not prepared to do of the mobile network operators. I assure Ms it. In addition to saving the jobs in the yard, Martin that Scottish Government officials and I will stepping in to save the yard supports jobs in the continue to use every opportunity to secure mobile supply chain locally and further afield, including operators’ interest in those and other candidate local businesses and suppliers that depend on sites. business from the yard and its workers. Gillian Martin: The minister has largely In the past few weeks, we have heard answered my supplementary question, which was suggestions—including at the committee sessions about Collieston, because I was informed recently that were referred to earlier—that vessels should that there is no interest from operators. What can be built in China and South Korea. Although I be done to encourage operators to get involved in respect the individuals who made those points, the process and give us the coverage that we and they are entitled to their view, we believe that desperately need? such a view betrays a staggering lack of commitment to the workforce and local community Paul Wheelhouse: It would be wrong to say in Inverclyde. I assure Mr McMillan, who that there is no interest whatever, but we have not represents his community with great passion, that had confirmed interest in taking on the mast at we are absolutely behind the people of Inverclyde. Collieston. It is important to recognise that a fundamental principle of the Scottish 4G infill Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD): As part programme is that, unless at least one operator is of any review of procurement and the committed to delivering 4G services from a Government’s ferries plan, will the minister agree candidate site, the site will not progress to build. a timeframe with for the procurement of the replacement vessels that are We are in discussion with an operator that has urgently needed to operate on Orkney’s internal expressed interest in the site at Collieston, but I lifeline routes? reiterate that that is not yet a confirmed interest. We are pressing for the operator’s commitment to Paul Wheelhouse: I recognise Mr McArthur’s using the site. If that can be achieved, the site will strong interest in the issue as the constituency progress to build. We will publish updates to the member for Orkney. He will know that those programme on our website and I will write to Ms services are currently provided by Orkney Islands Martin with a further update on Collieston when Council. I undertake to have continued that is available. discussions with the council as we move forward but, at the moment, our focus is on the immediate Of course, I welcome interest from members issues that are before us, in the context of about sites in their areas in relation to the Scottish developing the vessel replacement and 4G infill programme. deployment plan for our supported ferries and the ferries plan for the next period, and supporting the Get Glasgow Moving Campaign workforce in Inverclyde to ensure that we maintain employment in the area, as I said in response to The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call Johann Mr McMillan, and deliver hulls 801 and 802 as Lamont to ask question 7. soon as possible, which are needed to provide Johann Lamont (Glasgow) (Lab): To ask the vital services to communities in the Clyde and Scottish Government, in light of the Hebrides. bursting its banks, what impact and risk assessment it has made in relation to Glasgow’s Scottish 4G Infill Programme (Aberdeenshire) flood defences. 6. Gillian Martin (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP): The Deputy Presiding Officer: I do not think To ask the Scottish Government whether it will that that is the question as written— provide an update on the progress of the Scottish

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The Cabinet Secretary for Transport, Justice and the Law Officers Infrastructure and Connectivity (Michael Matheson): It is not the question that I have Justice System (Support for Serious Crime before me— Victims) The Deputy Presiding Officer: No, it is not. 1. Dr Alasdair Allan (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) Sorry, Ms Lamont, will you ask your question as (SNP): To ask the Scottish Government how the published in the Business Bulletin? justice system provides support to victims of Johann Lamont: I apologise. I think that I have serious crime and keeps them informed at every got my weeks mixed up. No doubt there will be stage of the process. (S5O-04129) some investigation. I will not give my justification The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Humza for the mix-up. [Laughter.] Yousaf): I welcome the member’s question, To ask the Scottish Government what its particularly as this is victims awareness week. The response is to the Get Glasgow Moving petition victims code for Scotland sets out victims’ rights to calling for publicly owned buses. (S5O-04127) information. Victims of serious crime will be allocated a family liaison officer by Police Scotland The Deputy Presiding Officer: Now, that is a to update them during the police investigation. If wee bit different from the other question. that leads to criminal charges, victims can also Michael Matheson: Flood prevention in access support from the victim information and Glasgow, no. advice service at the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service. Following a conviction, information We welcome Get Glasgow Moving’s on prisoners is available through the victim commitment to improving public transport in notification scheme. Support is available via Victim Glasgow. The Transport (Scotland) Act 2019 Support Scotland, including its support for families provides a range of new tools that local transport bereaved by crime service, and via the national authorities can use to meet local needs and advocacy project for victims of sexual violence. circumstances, whether they wish to pursue The victims task force is also considering ways to partnership working with local bus service improve support and information. providers, local franchising or the running of their own bus services. Dr Allan: How does the Scottish Government ensure that victims of crime, especially the most Alongside the 2019 act, we are bringing forward serious crimes, have suitable emotional support transformational long-term funding for bus priority and receive practical information specifically about infrastructure of more than half a billion pounds. their rights to make representations to the Parole Johann Lamont: I thank the cabinet secretary Board? and, given the mix-up in my questions, I just ask Humza Yousaf: That is a hugely important area him to consider carefully how he might encourage and a very important question; I thank the member communities to develop co-operative models for for raising it. He will be aware that we recently the provision of local bus services. A number of held a consultation on parole and the analysis and campaigns, from the Co-operative Party and response from that has been extremely welcome. others, recognise that the co-operative model can We are actively looking at the support that Victim provide an effective means of bringing bus Support Scotland can provide and what it already transport to communities. I ask the cabinet does, and it can provide further emotional and secretary to commit to looking further at the issue. practical support to victims when they are making Michael Matheson: I would be more than written or oral representations to the Parole Board. happy to look at that issue, which is a very On the back of the consultation, we are looking interesting concept around providing local bus at whether victims can perhaps even attend Parole services. Particularly in rural areas, there is the Board hearings and a key part of that will be potential for co-operative models to be one of the ensuring that they have welfare and emotional means by which bus services could be provided. If support. A transforming parole implementation Johann Lamont will provide me with further group is taking that work forward. The group has information on the specific proposals that she met once, on 28 January, and it is due to meet believes are worth considering, I will be happy to again next week. I am happy to keep the member engage with her and to look at those in further informed of progress as that work develops. detail. Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD): A key The Deputy Presiding Officer: That concludes feature of the Victims and Witnesses (Scotland) questions on transport and infrastructure. I Act 2014 was police restitution orders, which apologise to Annie Wells for failing to reach her would help to finance an expansion of the support question. that officers receive following an assault in the line of duty. To date, there is no sign of those orders

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being implemented. Why has there been a delay made by the Conservative justice spokesperson, and when can we expect those orders to be Liam Kerr, about the technologies, and we think brought forward? that they have a role to play. However, there will not be one silver bullet to tackle the issue; I know Humza Yousaf: There has been good progress that Liz Smith is certainly not suggesting that that on restitution orders. I will write to the member is the case. We will want to work very closely with with more detail. As he probably knows, some of individuals who are suffering from alcohol and the delay arose because of conversations that we substance abuse and work on the preventative had to have with the United Kingdom Government, agenda where we can. which have been constructive ones. I made a commitment when I first came into this role that I Transdermal technologies could absolutely play would like to bring forward restitution orders and it a role, and we are working very closely with was certainly an ask from the Scottish Police partners here in Scotland, as well as looking at Federation. There has been significant progress what the pilots in England and Wales are and I will write to the member with more details. demonstrating. I thank Liz Smith and her party for keeping an open mind about using such The Deputy Presiding Officer: Question 2 has technologies in the future. been withdrawn for an obvious reason. Access Rights for Grandparents Transdermal Alcohol Monitoring Tags 4. Willie Coffey (Kilmarnock and Irvine 3. Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): Valley) (SNP): To ask the Scottish Government To ask the Scottish Government whether it will whether it is considering a policy of granting a right provide an update on the introduction of of access for children to their grandparents in transdermal alcohol monitoring tags. (S5O-04131) cases of family separation. (S5O-04132) The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Humza The Minister for Community Safety (Ash Yousaf): Last year, through the Management of Denham): The Scottish Government recognises Offenders (Scotland) Act 2019, the Scottish the important role that grandparents play in many Government introduced a legislative framework to families in bringing up children. We have not enable the expansion of electronic monitoring, included a specific provision in the Children including through deployment of new technologies (Scotland) Bill on the relationships between a for remote substance monitoring. In October 2019 grandparent and a child, as we believe that such a following a procurement exercise, we announced provision could cut across the key principle in the a new electronic monitoring contract, which will legislation that the welfare of the child is the commence on 1 April 2020 and will include those court’s “paramount consideration”. technological capabilities. Willie Coffey: The minister will be aware of the While the provisions of the Act that enable United Nations convention that sets out the remote substance monitoring have not yet been fundamental rights of a child, including the right to commenced, the next steps will be to work closely live with a family that loves and cares for them. with justice stakeholders to discuss how this Will the minister consider enshrining that basic enhanced monitoring may be most effectively right in our own legislation as we take forward the used in future. Children (Scotland) Bill, such that there is a Liz Smith: I thank the cabinet secretary for that requirement on anyone who is seeking to deny interesting answer. He will know that recent children that basic right to seek a court order to do evaluations from two separate United Kingdom so? pilots—the first in Humberside, Lincolnshire and Ash Denham: Currently, a grandparent can North Yorkshire and the second in London—saw a apply for a contact order under section 11 of the combined total of more than 1,400 offenders Children (Scotland) Act 1995. In making a subject to compulsory sobriety when monitoring decision, the welfare of the child will be the court’s took place with alcohol tags. Those pilots yielded a “paramount consideration”, taking into account the 94 per cent compliance rate. views that are expressed by the child. The bill Does the cabinet secretary agree that would require the court, when considering the continuous alcohol monitoring tags could play an welfare of the child, to take account of the effect of important part in ensuring that we are tackling its decision on the child’s important non-parental alcohol-fuelled crime here in Scotland? relationships, which could of course include grandparents. My view is that the present position Humza Yousaf: I certainly think that the pilots complies with the UN Convention on the Rights of that have been taking place in England and Wales the Child. are worth exploring and that the technologies that we are discussing can absolutely play a role. I Alex Cole-Hamilton (Edinburgh Western) previously welcomed a positive comment that was (LD): I am grateful to the minister for taking the

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time to meet my constituents, and Shonia- made on implementing the provisions in the Maree Mason, who, after involuntary Management of Offenders (Scotland) Act 2019. estrangement from their grandson, have been (S5O-04133) campaigning on the issue. They recognise the The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Humza problems that the minister has outlined about Yousaf): The 2019 act covers four distinct topics: extending the right to grandparents, but does the electronic monitoring, disclosure, the Parole Board minister agree that the French model of giving for Scotland and the control of release from prison, children the right to have connections with their including the use of home detention curfew. ancestors when it is appropriate and in the interests of their welfare to do so, is a way forward To date, there have been three sets of here? commencement regulations that have brought in different aspects of the act. In October 2019, initial Ash Denham: I thank Alex Cole-Hamilton for commencement regulations brought into force a raising the matter and mentioning that I met him number of provisions in relation to home detention and his constituents to explore the issue with curfew and prisons, including those that provided them. We want to ensure that children can expect for the new offence of remaining unlawfully at to know and maintain contact with their wider large, improved powers of recall from HDC and family, except in very exceptional circumstances. the duty on public authorities to co-operate in However, I do not consider that an automatic right relation to early release from prison. of contact, such as Alex Cole-Hamilton is describing, is appropriate for a number of reasons, In December 2019, commencement regulations including that it may not be in the child’s best brought into force a number of provisions in interest in every case and it could, as I said earlier, relation to disclosure ahead of wider cut across the key principle of the 1995 act that commencement of the substantive provisions later the welfare of the child is the “paramount this year. In the same month, we also commenced consideration”. section 44 of the 2019 act in respect of periods of appointment of the chairperson and members of Grandparents can of course apply to the court the Parole Board. for contact under the existing legislation, and a decision will then be made by the court about what James Kelly: It is a matter of real concern that is in the child’s best interest in that particular case. no date has been set for the implementation of provisions in part 2 of the 2019 act on spent Jeremy Balfour (Lothian) (Con): Like other convictions. A case has been drawn to my members, I have had a number of constituents attention involving an individual who was contact me about the issue. As the minister will be convicted and fined £400 in December 2015. aware, in other jurisdictions across the world there Under the new law, that conviction would have is a presumption that the grandparents would have been spent in 12 months and the record withdrawn a right of access—it is not an automatic right, but a from disclosure. However, last month the presumption. Will the minister look at including in individual concerned had a job offer withdrawn the bill a presumption that grandparents would because a record of the conviction was still on have a right to see their grandchildren while also their disclosure. That is unacceptable. recognising that such a right must be in the best interest of the child? Why has there been a dereliction of duty in that area? What is the point of Parliament passing laws Ash Denham: We have already looked at such when, six months down the line, no action has a presumption during the passage of the Children been taken to introduce that aspect of the 2019 (Scotland) Bill. It is a very complex area. As act? members might expect, such a presumption was strongly supported by organisations such as Humza Yousaf: I express sympathy with James Grandparents Apart UK. However, there was Kelly’s constituent. Mr Kelly will understand that considerable opposition to it, and concerns were the Scottish Government’s intention is to have a raised that any such provision would cut across fairer system of disclosure. That is why we the key principle in the bill, which is that the introduced the Management of Offenders welfare of the child should be taken into account. (Scotland) Bill, which I am pleased was supported by Labour. We consider that the arguments against having such a provision in the law are stronger than the I take exception to the way in which Mr Kelly arguments for including such a provision in the bill. framed the question. There has not been a dereliction of duty. We sometimes take time to Management of Offenders (Scotland) Act 2019 commence provisions because, for a variety of (Implementation) reasons, it can take partners time to be ready. When it comes to disclosure, some work needs to 5. James Kelly (Glasgow) (Lab): To ask the be done in relation to Disclosure Scotland’s Scottish Government what progress has been information technology systems. The work to

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update Disclosure Scotland’s IT systems is Ash Denham: The Scottish Government is not progressing well, and we are confident that it will part of the negotiations on firefighters’ pay and be completed in the next few months. conditions, because those matters are between [Interruption.] the SFRS, as the employer, and the FBU. The SFRS made a final pay offer that amounted to a Mr Kelly shouts, “Six months,” from a sedentary 17 per cent increase for the period until July 2022, position. If he has ever been involved in projects to for the expanded role from November 2019. The update IT, he will know that they can take some FBU is balloting members on that offer, with a time. closing date of 28 February. James Kelly: I have been. I have written to the SFRS and the FBU to make Humza Yousaf: We are working on the basis clear the Scottish Government’s position, which is that the new IT systems will be up and running that additional investment in the SFRS can be and ready to commence operation in the next few supported only if real progress is made on months. There is no delay, dithering or dereliction broadening the role of firefighters in Scotland. I of duty. We are talking about pragmatic, practical hope that a deal can be reached soon. things that have to be worked through. Drug Supply Routes (Police Surveillance) However, the policy intention is absolutely sound, and I can give Mr Kelly an absolute 7. Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con): To guarantee that there would be no reason for us to ask the Scottish Government what discussions it want to delay. We want the relevant provisions to has had with Police Scotland regarding be implemented, but it would be a dereliction of surveillance of drug supply routes. (S5O-04135) duty if I allowed that to happen when Disclosure The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Humza Scotland’s IT systems were not ready to cope with Yousaf): As the chair of the serious organised those changes. crime task force, I have regular discussions with I will continue to make sure that Mr Kelly is kept partners, including Police Scotland, about our up to date with progress, and I give him a collective enforcement activity in disrupting the reassurance that there has been no unnecessary drugs trade. delay in introducing the measures in question. As Liam Kerr will be aware, the nature of the The Deputy Presiding Officer: I ask for shorter threats that our communities face is changing, and questions and answers so that we can get in the therefore our response to, for example, online other members who have questions. offending against vulnerable people, human trafficking and other cyber-based crimes, such as Scottish Fire and Rescue Service (Investment) child sexual exploitation, must change, too. The chief constable needs to make decisions about 6. Shona Robison (Dundee City East) (SNP): how best to use resources that reflect the To ask the Scottish Government how increased changing nature of threats. investment, outlined in its draft budget, will help support the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service. The best way of protecting people in all of (S5O-04134) Scotland’s communities is to ensure that the chief constable has the overall capacity and capability The Minister for Community Safety (Ash to address the threats that are faced by Denham): The Scottish Fire and Rescue Service communities, including those in Dumfries. The continues to adapt to the changing risks that decision regarding the surveillance team in Scotland’s communities face. With the additional Dumfries is an operational matter for the chief £6.1 million funding that was announced in the constable within that broader context. draft budget, this will be the third year in a row in which the Scottish Government has provided Liam Kerr: From his discussions, the cabinet increased investment to enable SFRS secretary will be well aware that it has been modernisation. That funding will allow the SFRS to reported that a vital police surveillance unit that is have a renewed focus on prevention to keep based in Dumfries and Galloway will be shut vulnerable people safe in their homes. down, despite the fact that the area’s ports and roads make it a choke point for the supply of Shona Robison: I understand that firefighters drugs. It has been reported that cuts to police are being balloted on a new pay and conditions budgets are directly responsible for such offer, with the ballot closing at the end of the decisions. A former member of the unit has said: month. Will the minister provide an update on the negotiations and let us know what progress has “Removing the team from Dumfries will give organised been made so far with the main representative crime gangs more scope to carry out their criminal activities.” body, the Fire Brigades Union? Is he not correct?

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Humza Yousaf: It is utter nonsense to suggest National Health Service that the decision has been taken for resourcing reasons. It has been taken for operational The Deputy Presiding Officer (Linda reasons, and it is right that the chief constable has Fabiani): The next item of business is a debate on the independent discretion to make such motion S5M-20882, in the name of Monica decisions. It is quite something for Liam Kerr and Lennon, on standing up for national health service the Tories to think that it is appropriate for staff and patients. politicians to direct the operational activity of the chief constable. I am certain that Liam Kerr thinks very highly of himself, but the chief constable has 14:40 30 years of operational experience, which is far Monica Lennon (Central Scotland) (Lab): I more than that of Liam Kerr or, indeed, any other am grateful for the opportunity to use Scottish politician in the chamber. Labour’s debate time to stand up for our NHS. The It is right for us to leave operational decisions to motion is titled “Standing up for NHS Staff and the chief constable. There should be no political Patients” and highlights key challenges and risks interference in his decisions. If Liam Kerr has that face our health service. concerns, he should raise them directly with the Governance issues and resource pressures are chief constable; he should not be demanding that unprecedented and put our most precious public the justice secretary intervenes. However, I service in jeopardy. That deserves the full suspect that the chief constable will take a very attention of Parliament and not for just a couple of dim view of Liam Kerr telling him what he should hours. We all rely on and are grateful to the NHS be doing in his capacity and with his assets. and we all have constituents who lobby us to raise their experiences in Parliament. Children (Scotland) Bill (Engagement) It is a troubling reality that our health service is 8. Keith Brown ( and not always available to us at the point of need. We Dunblane) (SNP): To ask the Scottish have been told that by families who have been Government how it is engaging with interested bereaved by suicide in ; by chronic pain parties, such as Families Need Fathers, during patients who have travelled to this Parliament from stage 1 of the Children (Scotland) Bill. (S5O- all over Scotland; by staff whistleblowers in 04136) Glasgow, , Ayrshire and Lothian; by The Minister for Community Safety (Ash organisations worried that delays in diagnosing Denham): The Scottish Government has engaged cancer are risking survival rates, including Cancer with stakeholders since the Children (Scotland) Bill Research UK and this Parliament’s cross-party was introduced in the Scottish Parliament on 2 group on cancer. Audit Scotland has warned that September 2019 and continues to do so. I have the Scottish Government’s 2020 vision for the met Shared Parenting Scotland—which was NHS will not be met. formerly called Families Need Fathers Scotland— In her questions to the First Minister before twice since my appointment as Minister for recess, Alison Johnstone nailed it when she Community Safety. Officials have met Shared outlined the growing gap between resources and Parenting Scotland on a number of occasions demand and the pressure that our amazing NHS since the bill was introduced. For example, staff are under. The Green amendment rightly officials attended the relaunch of Shared Parenting highlights the challenges that are faced in Scotland on 10 February. achieving the 2020 vision, which is in no small part Keith Brown: I have been contacted by not only due to the growing gap between available Families Need Fathers but a number of resources and growing pressures. We would constituents regarding the bill’s provisions relating gladly have supported Alison Johnstone’s to estranged parents and the need for them to amendment. maintain personal relationships and direct contact In his amendment, Miles Briggs rightly draws with their children. Would the minister be willing to attention to staff wellbeing. Many of us attended a meet me to discuss my constituents’ views? round-table meeting that Miles Briggs hosted in Ash Denham: The Scottish Government the Parliament, at which Brian Connolly—the believes that both parents should be fully involved father of Lauren Connolly, a junior doctor from in a child’s upbringing, as long as that is in the , who died on her way home from best interests of the child. I would, of course, be work—addressed us and asked us to do happy to meet Mr Brown and/or his constituents to something to help not only junior doctors but discuss the matter in more detail. everyone on the front line of our health service. Minutes from the Scottish Government working group on the issue indicated that it would not be possible to achieve the 48-hour working week and

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maintain safe staffing levels without a 35 per cent unnecessary days in hospital when they should be increase in junior doctor numbers, which is an at home. Figures for December showed a 6 per increase of approximately 2,200 more doctors. We cent increase compared to the year before, and are happy to work on a cross-party basis on delays to hospital discharge have cost the NHS issues like that, in order to improve staff wellbeing almost £200 million since the cabinet secretary and the working culture within our NHS. Therefore, took up her post. we will support Miles Briggs’s amendment. I want to mention chronic pain. Thousands of We also want to work with the Scottish patients who are living with chronic pain are Government. I urge ministers to be more willing to regularly being forced to wait over four months to work with Opposition parties to address those get a first appointment at a pain clinic, but in the fundamental concerns about working culture and past financial year, services received only £27,000 the impact of resource pressures. in additional waiting times improvement funding. Dorothy-Grace Elder and members of the cross- Today, we have had many briefings—including party group on chronic pain are having to pursue those from the British Medical Association and the answers through freedom of information requests Royal College of Nursing—that are clear on the just to get standard information on waiting times. I challenges and the solutions. There must be no pay tribute to them and to patients, such as more sticking plasters. We need to address Catherine Hughes, who are exhausted but are immediate problems, such as long waiting times fighting the good fight because they do not want and delayed discharge. However, we need strong other patients to go through the same. I urge the leadership, governance and a culture that values cabinet secretary to find the time to meet that collaboration, openness and transparency, so it group and those patients. was disappointing to see the Scottish Government’s attempt to wreck our motion. The Many issues in our health service have come to motion reflects the serious concerns of patients light thanks only to the tenacity of brave and families, NHS staff, trade unions and whistleblowers, patients and journalists, who have professional bodies, and third sector groups that asked the hard questions and not been fobbed off often fill the gaps and pick up the pieces when by health board and Scottish Government spin. I people are let down. Yet, ministers have used their pay tribute to families affected by the tragedies amendment to delete all those concerns. That and serious events at the Queen Elizabeth “nothing to see here” attitude is an insult to university hospital. They have shown us what patients and staff. courage looks like. Let us look at the laundry list of problems on the Many journalists are involved in that, but I have cabinet secretary’s desk. The Queen Elizabeth been speaking to Hannah Rodger from The Herald university hospital and the sick kids in Edinburgh and Herald on Sunday. She has spent more than need no further commentary. The legal 12-week a year using freedom of information to get access waiting time guarantee has been broken over to specific information about the handling of 250,000 times. The cabinet secretary’s much- outbreaks at the Queen Elizabeth, and she has vaunted waiting times improvement plan has faced repeated resistance from NHS Greater missed its promised milestones and abjectly failed Glasgow and Clyde. It is concerning that other to improve patient waiting times; instead they have bodies, including Health Protection Scotland, are got worse. following suit in their reluctance to provide information. There is more hiding behind patient The 62-day cancer waiting time target has not confidentiality and legal excuses, yet they break been met since 2012. The most recent statistics those exemptions when the timing suits, to serve show that NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde and their own spin or narrative. NHS Lothian also failed to meet the 31-day cancer treatment time target. NHSGGC told Hannah Rodger that there was nothing new in the leaked reports that she was The 18-week waiting time target for child and passed detailing the warnings about wards not adolescent mental health services has not been being purpose built, the fact that the ventilation met while has been First Minister system throughout the campus might be and, last year, over 5,000 young people waited too exacerbating the spread of infection, and the long. The most recent figures have shown concerns that information was missing from performance falling again, with more than a third building logs. We got to the point at which the of young people waiting more than 18 weeks for a cabinet secretary called a public inquiry, but it first appointment. should not have taken a year of campaigners, In 2019, almost 7,000 operations were journalists and others meeting brick walls. cancelled because hospitals could not cope. It feels as though patients and families are Despite repeated promises to end delayed taking on the medical establishment—in fact, at discharge, patients are still spending thousands of times, it is like a medical mafia. Speaking out and

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standing up against their shocking treatment by disappointed that the Government amendment the health board has meant that some staff have seeks to delete all those concerns. I want the lost their jobs; that is the reality. Worryingly, the people of Scotland to know that not just the problems with transparency are not isolated to one Labour Party, but all of us as a Parliament, with health board or one part of Scotland. Sarah the support of the Government, will stand up for Boyack, Daniel Johnson and Anas Sarwar, who the NHS, no matter what. We will stand up for will speak in the debate, have all been tenacious patients and for staff. in standing up for patients and staff in their areas. I move, We have the ridiculous and scandalous situation That the Parliament has serious concerns about of the new sick kids hospital in Edinburgh lying governance, leadership, performance and financial empty and unable to treat a single patient, even sustainability within the health service, noting that six though the health board is paying millions of territorial NHS boards are at level three or higher on the pounds to the contractor for it. It is right that there performance escalation framework; notes the forthcoming will be a public inquiry into the construction of public inquiry into the scandals in NHS Lothian and NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde; considers that challenges and those hospitals in both Glasgow and Edinburgh. risks within the NHS are not being satisfactorily addressed The dots needs to be joined, we need by the Scottish Government, to the detriment of patients accountability and lessons must be learned. and NHS staff; pays tribute to NHS staff for their dedication to patient care and is worried that more than half of doctors In other health boards, such as NHS Tayside, and nurses surveyed by BMA Scotland and RCN Scotland so many families have had their lives turned link heavy workloads to negative impacts on their own upside down by the tragedy of suicide. Families health; believes that the Scottish Government must be have felt shut out and let down by the decisions of more transparent on its stewardship of the NHS, in NHS Tayside. The Strang report, which we accordance with Open Government principles, and that the culture of secrecy must end; calls on the Scottish discussed in the chamber before recess, is a Government to ensure that ministers are accountable to the hopeful step towards changing that for good. public and staff through the chairing of annual health board meetings, and agrees that the Parliament should have the Miles Briggs’s amendment notes the Sturrock power to take evidence from all departing health board review, which highlights the culture of bullying and chief executives and chairpersons. harassment in our NHS that needs to be stamped out. 14:52 I mentioned the Strang report, which was fuelled The Cabinet Secretary for Health and Sport by the courage of families who have spoken out. (Jeane Freeman): I am pleased to take part in the Some of them are experiencing post-traumatic debate. We are all living longer lives now, and that stress disorder themselves. I pay tribute to Gillian is indeed good news. It is a testament to the work Murray, Mandy McLaren and others. It is not just a that our NHS undertakes throughout the lives of Tayside issue; the Minister for Mental Health is every person in this chamber. The change in aware that there are patients who are our population brings challenges. Long-term constituents in who are saying the conditions and comorbidities all place significant same things. That is why Gillian Murray in Tayside demands on health and social care. That is one of is working with Karen McKeown in Lanarkshire to the reasons why it is so vital, both for our society petition the Parliament to make sure that the as a whole and for our health and care services in fragmentation among services for mental health particular, that Scotland continues to attract and substance use ends and that we get to a point people to come and work here. at which there is no wrong door—we are far away from that. Our health boards face difficulties in recruiting staff to specialisms in certain areas, and the In the motion, we talk about health boards being Scottish Government works with them to try and in special measures. There is nothing special address those challenges. Their job and ours is about that. The only thing spectacular about it is made harder because of the additional the fact that it has become so unprecedented. So complexities imposed on us by Brexit, the United many opportunities have been missed to step in Kingdom Government’s changes to pension and and support boards and to have a deep dive into taxation and potentially an even more draconian some of the problems. So many chief executives immigration system that looks likely to be imposed and chairs have resigned or been moved on that it against Scotland’s needs and against Scotland’s feels like a game of NHS musical chairs. choice. We need a plan for reform, not a Government Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab): that shies away from acknowledging the I struggle to understand how increases in demand challenges that we face. We need the Government led to bad decision making regarding the building to be open and transparent and to set the bar so of two hospitals at both ends of the M8. that our health boards operate at a high level. We must end the culture of secrecy. That is why I am

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Jeane Freeman: If I had been suggesting that, numbers are up by 11.3 per cent, which means then I would have struggled along with the that more than 14,300 extra whole-time equivalent member. I am one minute and 13 seconds in to staff are working in our NHS to deliver the quality my speech, so give me a moment. of our services that our citizens need. Where our system falls short of our Monica Lennon: We have been busy meeting expectations, we demand that action is taken to the people who cannot get in front of the cabinet address it, because the consequences of secretary, although she claims to have an open shortcomings can be terrible. In the case of the door. She made it a priority to establish staff sick kids hospital in Edinburgh, the impact whistleblowing champions, but that is only includes the cost to the public purse. happening now. We are working with stakeholders on policy development. We have an election next Where bullying has taken place, the impact has year, but there has been no press release from us clearly been to the detriment of staff who are trying to trail the debate. The cabinet secretary’s to work to care for their fellow citizens. In the most response is an insult to all the people I mentioned tragic circumstances, shortcomings have in my opening remarks. It is more spin and more ultimately resulted in the loss of life. I cannot begin denial. Take responsibility—you have been in to imagine the pain that is experienced by families charge for 13 years. who have lost loved ones in that way, particularly when that loss is of a child. As the health Jeane Freeman: My response is absolutely secretary, I again say how sorry I am that anyone none of those things, because that long list that should have had those experiences. They are not Monica Lennon produced is a list of actions that acceptable and they must be addressed and we we are taking—I have met those people. I am able are doing that. to meet people, devise policy and lead our NHS. If you would like to try to do some of that, we might Some members, including Mr Sarwar and Ms have a constructive discussion— Baillie, have raised with me incredibly serious issues and have played a part in starting to see Monica Lennon rose— them addressed. Contributions such as theirs help Jeane Freeman: I will take no more to inform our on-going monitoring of boards interventions. through the escalation framework and to change the level of support and direction that boards get The Deputy Presiding Officer: Excuse me, so that we can fix problems and failings. ladies. You should not have private conversations and arguments across the chamber. Everything As I have said before, I welcome constructive should come through me. proposals from anyone to improve our health service for the benefit of patients, families and Jeane Freeman: My apologies, Presiding staff. Sadly, however, Ms Lennon’s motion has no Officer. such proposals. It calls for two things only: for ministers to chair annual board reviews, which we Under this Government, since 2006-07, the annual resource investment in health has risen by do, and for the Parliament to be able to call 62.9 per cent, and our draft budget for 2020-21 will witnesses, which it can. If Ms Lennon has serious take total health spending to more than £15 billion, proposals to improve services, I will listen, but if which is a rise of 4.2 per cent over and above the the only contribution remains weak lines for press demand that we recognised in our medium-term releases, I do not think that we will get very far. financial framework. However, under Labour’s Monica Lennon: Will the cabinet secretary give manifesto, health spending would have been down way? by £1.4 billion in this year. Jeane Freeman: No—let me finish. Investment must of course be matched with reform. While social care reform in England Three years ago, in February 2017, Labour remains in the long grass, we have backed announced that it was establishing an NHS integration, not with warm words but through our workforce commission. Three years on, what is partnership with COSLA and the additional that commission proposing on workforce? Nothing. resources that are proposed in the budget, which In those three years, we have produced workforce take our total investment in health and social care plans for acute care, primary care and social care. partnerships to more than £9.4 billion. Investment We have worked with the Convention of Scottish in our NHS and in health staff, who are our most Local Authorities to produce an overarching valuable resource, is vital and is producing workforce plan that draws all that together. We improvements. That is not happening as fast as have seen 2,700 whole-time equivalent more staff we want, but there is real, tangible and sustainable join our NHS, which is an increase of 2 per cent, improvement. and we have passed the most comprehensive safe-staffing legislation anywhere in the United In the year to September 2019, the number of Kingdom. Overall, under the SNP, NHS staff out-patients waiting more than 12 weeks was

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down by 14 per cent, while there was a 50 per 15:01 cent reduction in patients waiting more than six Miles Briggs (Lothian) (Con): Anyone out in weeks for scopes and an 18 per cent reduction in the real world who has been watching the debate patients waiting more than six weeks for one of the so far will think that the cabinet secretary does not eight key diagnostic tests. have a grasp of what is going on in our health Edward Mountain (Highlands and Islands) service. Her turning up for a photo call is one (Con): Will Jeane Freeman take an intervention? thing, but the daily emails that I receive from members of the NHS workforce show the trouble Jeane Freeman: No—I have a lot to get that they are in and that the cabinet secretary is through. not listening. A 95 per cent performance rate for the 31-day I welcome the debate, which builds on the cancer target has been met and improvements are debate that I led in the chamber in April 2019 on coming through on the 62-day target. There is standing up for all those who work in our health more to do—absolutely—but those improvements service. should be neither ignored nor dismissed. As in last April’s debate, I put on record my There is innovation across our NHS every day: party’s gratitude to and support for each and every in home-based hypertension testing that is linked member of NHS staff in Scotland. Our NHS staff to social prescribing; in the growing number of are, fundamentally, our NHS. They are the most patients that use the attend anywhere platform, or valuable resource that we have. They are NHS near me; and in developments in optometry, incredibly hard working and, despite the pressures community pharmacy, robotic surgery and that are put on them by ministers, they provide orthopaedic in-patient stays and much more. Our each of our constituents with first-class healthcare. job is to harness such innovation, gather the evidence of what works and enable it to be I am disappointed that the Scottish Government spread, as we did only yesterday with the NHS has not done more since last April’s debate to Lanarkshire hospital-at-home model. introduce some of the positive measures that members suggested to address workforce issues, I do not deny that there are challenges or staff workload concerns and working conditions, or problems. I am clear that the whole-system to tackle the severe staff shortages in the NHS. approach that we are taking and the whole-system engagement that we are nurturing—from our work Earlier, Monica Lennon mentioned junior with local authorities to our engagement with royal doctors working hours, which I have raised before. colleges, regulatory bodies and third sector Last year, I was pleased to host a round-table organisations—are the right things to do. meeting in Parliament with Brian Connelly, the father of a 23-year-old junior doctor who, sadly, I ask Opposition colleagues for recognition of was killed driving home after a 12-hour night shift. the progress that our NHS staff are delivering, and I pay tribute to Mr Connelly again on his I note that criticism and challenge should come campaigning. However, we need action on the along with constructive engagement, ideas and issue, so I would be grateful if, in closing the mature discussion. Our NHS, the staff who debate, ministers could use the opportunity to tell dedicate their lives to it and the patients who need us about what has come out of the work of the it deserve nothing less from any one of us. expert working group that is chaired by Professor I move amendment S5M-20882.3, to leave out Cachia. We should have heard about that earlier, from “has serious concerns” to end and insert: and it is important for members and any junior doctors in the public gallery to understand where “pays tribute to NHS staff for their dedication to patient the Government is going with that work. care and safety, commending them for the work they are doing in implementing plans for workforce development, I have given my backing to the Royal College of waiting times improvements and enhancing mental health Anaesthetists’ excellent fight fatigue campaign, services; welcomes that the draft budget for 2020-21 would which is a suggestion-based solution to how to ensure that health funding will be £1.4 billion higher than had there been only real terms funding increases since support NHS staff. 2016; notes that Lord Brodie will chair the public inquiry into The briefings from the BMA and the RCN for the the Royal Hospital for Children and Young People in Edinburgh and the Queen Elizabeth University Hospital and debate highlight workforce concerns that we that the terms of reference for this inquiry are currently should all be acutely aware of. In the RCN’s 2019 under development; welcomes that the Scottish employment survey, 60 per cent of respondents Government ensures that ministers are accountable to the agreed that they are “under too much pressure” at public and staff through the chairing of annual health board work, with 70 per cent reporting that they work meetings, and notes that, should they choose to do so, the over Parliament’s committees already have the power to take evidence from all departing health board chief executives “their contracted hours at least once a week” and chairpersons.”

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and 52 per cent reporting that they work beyond longer need to use their cars as much? Finally, will their contracted hours in each hospital shift. That he clarify whether the £700 million that he claims demonstrates just how much more needs to be is coming from Barnett consequentials is for car done to support NHS staff in Scotland. We need to parking or for something else? look at such support holistically, which means The Deputy Presiding Officer: Mr Briggs can looking at pre-shift and post-shift support. have extra time. Having rest facilities in hospitals and properly Miles Briggs: Thank you very much, Presiding timetabled rotas so that staff can get a break are Officer. measures that could improve NHS staff wellbeing and effectiveness and, most important, their On Jeane Freeman’s first point, yes, but that safety. For example, we have been calling for the was not the case in three hospitals where NHS Scottish Government to introduce sleep pods in staff still have to pay to park. We can do hospital campuses, where which staff can rest something about that: we can refund staff their before they head home or start shifts. I urge parking charges. That is now planned to take ministers to work with our health boards across place in England and Wales, and some £7 million Scotland to take that issue forward. will come to the Scottish Parliament in Barnett consequentials because of parking charges that We want every health board to provide quality staff will not pay in England and Wales. Ministers mental health and financial support and advice to can decide to stop making staff pay at hospitals in NHS staff. With NHS staff absentee rates at such Edinburgh and Glasgow and at Ninewells hospital high levels, we need to look to invest now in better and to use that money, or they can decide to see mental health support for our NHS workforce. the charging approach continue. I do not believe Issues and difficulties around parking are that our NHS staff in Edinburgh and Glasgow and constantly raised with me. NHS staff at hospitals in Ninewells hospital should continue to pay those Edinburgh and Glasgow and at Ninewells hospital parking fees. still have to face parking charges. In campaigning I repeat the call for the Government to bring to end that unfair charging, the Scottish forward a full debate on the Sturrock review Conservatives have put forward a solution: a without further delay. My Highlands and Islands refund scheme for NHS staff. The Government colleague Edward Mountain has also rightly and can take that forward, and I hope that all members repeatedly made that call. can get behind it. The Scottish Government’s proposed budget does not include a refund On the Scottish Government’s failure to meet a scheme, but we can implement one—and it is raft of NHS targets and its appalling oversight of costed. I hope that ministers will look to implement key NHS infrastructure projects, I associate myself such a scheme. The charges must come to an end with the content of Monica Lennon’s motion. In for NHS staff who work at those sites and still pay speaking to my constituents across Edinburgh and them. Ministers have had the powers to deal with Lothian, I am always struck by the fact that they that for 13 years. are increasingly losing confidence in the SNP’s ability to lead and manage our NHS. That should We also want to see a comprehensive national not be any surprise to ministers when they look at review of parking for patients. In many cases— all the problems that are mounting up. including many in Edinburgh, as I know from my own mailbag—when people go to hospital, they However, there are innovative new solutions find the stress of parking, or there being no that we could take forward if ministers looked to capacity to park, a significant issue. As a implement them and listened across the Parliament, we can address that. Money can be Parliament. made available, given the £7 million in Barnett As a co-convener of the Parliament’s cross- consequentials for parking that is coming to the Parliament. I hope that ministers will try to take party group on cancer—Anas Sarwar is the that issue forward. group’s other co-convener—I have highlighted in recent months our report, which pointed out that Jeane Freeman: Will Miles Briggs accept two cancer survival rates are being impacted by the things and clarify one thing for me? First, does he lack of workforce; it also pointed out the SNP accept that it was an SNP Government that Government’s work on tackling cancer has not abolished parking charges in those hospitals in taken a long-term approach. respect of which we are not obliged to continue to pay more than £240 million a year for private As Monica Lennon outlined, chronic pain patients across our country feel that they are finance initiative contracts? Secondly, does he completely ignored, and they have had enough— accept that our approach on climate change they want to see action to address chronic pain. should—as the attend anywhere programme and We need to take that forward, and the Parliament the near me services do—produce significant improvements so that people will perhaps no needs to take a serious role in considering how

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people who suffer from chronic pain access on the NHS was clear that wide-scale reform is services in Scotland. Many of our fellow Scots who necessary to address the increasing pressures on have chronic pain are fighting day in, day out just the NHS and to reduce demand for acute services. to be believed. That is not happening, however. Delayed discharge figures are consistently poor and, I hope that ministers will use the debate to between 2017-18 and 2018-19, the NHS saw an understand the problems that our health service increase of 2.8 per cent in A and E attendances. faces and will listen to the calls from across the Acute services are struggling at both ends of the Parliament for cross-party action. I welcome the pipeline, and patients are suffering as a result. debate. We should all be scrutinising the Government’s failing record on our NHS. John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP): I agree with a lot of what the member says. Does I move amendment S5M-20882.1, to insert at she accept that we will need to disinvest in end: hospitals if we are going to put more money into “; believes that there is a need to improve the holistic the community? care and support provided to NHS and social care staff, including pre- and post-shift support, in order to promote Alison Johnstone: That is a big question, wellbeing; condemns bullying in any part of the NHS, and which I do not have time to cover in this debate. calls on the Scottish Government to bring a full debate on the Sturrock review before Parliament at the earliest Health inequalities, which drive a great deal of opportunity.” the pressure on our NHS, continue to permeate our society. The Royal College of Paediatric and Child Health’s 2019 update of its “State of Child 15:09 Health” report said: Alison Johnstone (Lothian) (Green): I thank the Labour Party for bringing these issues to the “The proportion of children at risk of being overweight or obese surges ahead in the most deprived areas but is chamber. Given the challenges that our health falling back in the least deprived areas. Child poverty rates service has been facing in the past few months, are increasing and child mental health services are the debate is extremely timely. I also pay tribute to struggling to meet demand.” our incredible health service staff, who are working If we do not improve the health of our children, we in increasingly tough conditions and are still have little hope of improving the health of the managing to deliver excellent care. It is important nation as a whole. to acknowledge that. Audit Scotland’s report on the NHS, published in October, revealed that, Of course, although accountability for any despite the existing pressures, patient safety and failings is essential, we need to avoid perpetuating experiences of hospital care continue to improve. a blame culture and instead ensure that NHS staff The NHS in Scotland has a committed workforce and leadership are supported and valued. As has that continues to provide high-quality, safe care. I been well described, there have been deeply am extremely grateful for that. It is essential that concerning reports of a negative workplace culture we in Parliament take time to highlight the in the health service. The departing chair of NHS challenges that the NHS faces but we must also Lothian, Brian Houston, stated in his resignation thank our dedicated healthcare staff and celebrate letter that the health board has not been treated the work that they do. with I agree with the principles that are contained in “the values of openness and honesty, dignity and respect the motion in Monica Lennon’s name. It is vital that by some areas of the Scottish government” we have transparency across our public services, and said that the board had been bringing the not least in our health service, where lives are at challenges that it was facing to the Scottish stake. My amendment, which was not selected for Government’s attention for years. Martin Hill, the debate, urged the Scottish Government not only to vice-chair, similarly stated that publicly report on the progress of the health and social care plan but to urgently develop a new “the Scottish Government contrived to put Brian in a position where he felt it necessary to resign”. health and social care strategy. The Scottish Government’s 2020 vision, which stated that, by Monica Lennon: When Alison Johnstone 2020, everyone would be able mentioned Brian Houston’s resignation, the “to live longer, healthier lives at home, or in a homely Minister for Mental Health rolled her eyes. Do we setting”, have complacency at the heart of Government, given that it is not taking more seriously the letter has obviously not been realised. The Scottish from Brian Houston, which Alex Cole-Hamilton Government needs to outline the revised raised during topical questions before the recess? timescales for realising its ambition. The Minister for Mental Health (Clare The motion also refers to the sustainability of Haughey): On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I the health service. The same Audit Scotland report find the remarks that Monica Lennon has just

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made about me to be insulting. What my gestures would do well to appreciate. Our health and social are when I am not making a speech or an care system relies on so-called low-skilled intervention, and when I am in conversation with a workers, and the UK Government’s refusal to colleague sitting beside me, should not concern acknowledge that is short sighted at best. her. I will support the Conservatives’ amendment The Deputy Presiding Officer: You have because it makes some valuable points about placed your feelings on the record, minister. We workplace culture and the Sturrock review, but the will now go back to Alison Johnstone. Conservatives need to take a long, hard look at themselves and decide whether the best way to Alison Johnstone: It is clear that people in promote wellbeing is to devalue vital staff and management at NHS Lothian are not feeling worsen recruitment issues at a time when demand wholly supported or valued. That is concerning in for NHS services has never been higher. I hope any workplace but, in our health service, which is that they will work with other parties and with their critically important to the health and wellbeing of Government at Westminster to lessen the impact Scotland, it is alarming. Failings in a health board of the new immigration rules on our health and are frequently indicative of wider issues and they social care services. should not be dismissed as being the fault of one individual. I am sure that staff and the public do not appreciate our NHS being used as a tool with I will not support the Scottish Government’s which to score political points. We must work amendment, because it seeks to remove any together constructively as a Parliament to better reference to staff wellbeing despite the abundant support our NHS workers, because they need us evidence that NHS workers are under and we need them. considerable strain. We must not ignore what front-line staff are telling us. Both the cabinet secretary and I attended the reception in the 15:17 Scottish Parliament for the Royal College of Alex Cole-Hamilton (Edinburgh Western) Emergency Medicine a couple of weeks ago, and (LD): It often sounds slightly clichéd to begin a we were left in no doubt about the situation in speech such as this one by thanking NHS staff, emergency departments. but I do thank them, because they have saved the As Miles Briggs’s amendment points out, the lives of two of my three children on several Sturrock review revealed a culture of bullying at occasions. They work miracles even though they NHS Highland, and the independent inquiry into are on their knees and we sometimes ask them to mental health services in NHS Tayside revealed do more with less. They have my thanks— that particularly the junior doctors in the gallery—and so does the Royal College of Nursing Scotland, “Some staff do not trust the organisation’s motivation, which has provided us with an excellent briefing experiencing a culture of fear and blame. They see a failure of the organisation to take responsibility, and evidence of for the debate. defensiveness and lack of transparency.” I also pay tribute to some people who do not There is a disturbing pattern here. As health often get a lot of thanks, and they are the board boards struggle to meet demand and cope with chair, the board chief executive and the head of staff shortages, stress and tensions increase, and the health and social care partnership in my area. I it is clear that staff are too often bearing the brunt have cause to work with Brian Houston, Tim of that. Davison and Judith Proctor nearly daily and I know that they recognise the problems in their health Those conditions will only worsen with the board. I do not hold them responsible for a lot of introduction of the UK Government’s post-Brexit those problems and I know that they are doing immigration plans, which were revealed this week. their very best. The Home Secretary said that the plans are about bringing John Mason: Will the member take an intervention? “the brightest and the best” Alex Cole-Hamilton: Not at this time. I need to to the UK and that the Government wants to make some progress. “reduce the levels of people coming to the UK with low skills.” I recognise that the departures of Tim Davison and Brian Houston, coming as they do, side by That devaluation of so many of our foreign-born side, will create a massive leadership gulf in NHS workers is simply appalling. Historically, people Lothian, but I am conscious that we have some who work in the care sector have been low paid organisational memory left there. and classed as low skilled, but caring for vulnerable people with multiple, complex There are warning lights across the dashboard conditions requires a particular skill set that we of our NHS. We see that day in, day out in our

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constituency surgeries, including in cases where James Dornan (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP): there are breaches of the 12-week waiting time Will the member take an intervention? guarantee. We hear that people, who are Alex Cole-Hamilton: I will take an intervention sometimes in abject pain, have been asked to wait from James Dornan, if John Mason is not ready to 40 or 50 weeks for basic surgery even though they intervene. are clutching the letter that we still cruelly send them to say that they have a legal right to be seen The Deputy Presiding Officer: Hold on. I call within 12 weeks. James Dornan. Not only that, but the systems for mailing things James Dornan: What would Alex Cole- out to people are still stuck in the 1970s. A lady Hamilton do now with the hospital? He has to came to see me who had had a referral for accept that we are where we are, and he has not suspected mouth cancer. At the top of the referral answered John Mason’s question. We need to get letter that she was clutching was an admission the money from somewhere, now. that it had been dictated in October and typed up The Deputy Presiding Officer: Excuse me. We in December. Delays of that kind, which are seem to be having private conversations again. I caused by information sitting in a dictaphone ask members to bear in mind that everything goes somewhere, cost lives. through the chair. I have previously referenced Dr Patrick Alex Cole-Hamilton: I am grateful for James Statham, my meeting with whom was the first time Dornan’s intervention, but part of the issue is that I had had a consultant neurosurgeon come to baked into the fabric of the design for the building. my surgery to complain about delayed discharge. Eight years ago, the hospital was meant to open. It He is turning people away from the Western general hospital every single week because there was first commissioned in 2012 and was due then. are insufficient in-patient beds in that hospital due Of course we are not now going to put people into an unsafe hospital, but we need to learn those to its inability to discharge well patients into social lessons and not put the blame for them at the feet care packages in the community. of the chief executive and the chair of the health That is typified by the constituents whose issues board, as this Government has sought to do. It is I have raised several times. George Ballantyne easy to lay blame. was declared well but had to wait 150 nights in the Liberton hospital at a cost of £500 a night for the I will come to the resignation of the board chair in one minute, but the cause of the fiasco was want of a care package that would have cost £80 baked in eight years ago. It could have been a night. That is the myopic problem in the stopped several times and it was not. I hope that integration agenda and we all need to address it. we will get answers on that in the coming inquiry. The problem is that we do not value social care However, Brian Houston in his resignation letter staff enough. The recognition that we pay people talked about the blame culture that goes from this more to stack shelves in a supermarket than to Scottish Government to health boards around the provide round-the-clock intimate care to some of country. The letter suggests that he was told to our most vulnerable citizens is an outrage. It is accept the blame for the sick kids hospital delay part of the reason why there is an interruption of by this cabinet secretary. His words are that he felt flow throughout the health service, which is a “rush to judgment” that evident in our A and E delays and the waiting “appears to reflect a desire for blame that is unfair and times problems there. inappropriate.” I will speak about NHS Lothian because it is I agree with him. I am shocked by it. At no point creaking at the sides. I do not hold the board or have I ascribed the blame for the sick kids hospital the social care partnership responsible for that. to this cabinet secretary, so I am dismayed to GP surgeries are groaning under the weight of the learn that a senior high-ranking official in the new housing that has been forced on Edinburgh health board was meant by her to feel blame. and are often closing their lists to new entrants. Added to that is the fact that our population is The culture of blame from this Government is getting older. not new. When the SNP cut funding to drug and alcohol services by £1.3 million in the capital, the John Mason—who I will let intervene in a cabinet secretary’s predecessor blamed NHS minute, because I know that he wanted to—asked Lothian for not meeting the gap through NHS Alison Johnstone whether we need to divest from Scotland resource allocation committee funding. hospitals to invest in healthcare in the community. This NHS is in crisis and the answer to none of it I would start by not wasting £1.4 million a month is further centralisation. on a hospital that is currently lying empty and waiting for children.

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Brian Houston’s resignation letter spoke to the Jackie Baillie: As the cabinet secretary will heart of the problem in NHS Lothian when he have heard my colleagues shouting, the two are wrote that not mutually exclusive. We do need action, and I “we have consistently drawn the ... attention” am about to call for an increase in the action that is taken. of the Scottish Government The level of complacency and downright “to the requirement for a fundamental step change in incompetence that I have witnessed merits the infrastructure and capacity to serve a population that is growing at twice the Scottish average.” escalation of special measures to stage 5—the most serious intervention possible—and the This Government has its fingers in its ears and it removal of the chair and chief executive, who have is not valuing the people on the front line who are presided over that shocking series of failures. trying to make it right. Let us not forget that those failures include the The Deputy Presiding Officer: We now move cases of children such as Milly Main, who died to the open debate. Speeches of six minutes, needlessly in the Queen Elizabeth, Scotland’s please. It would be appreciated if people try to flagship hospital, because of infections due to the keep to time. condition of the building. How devastating for those families affected, and how outrageous that 15:23 there appear to have been attempts to cover up the scandal. Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab): It is perhaps unsurprising that I will focus on NHS Greater The culture of secrecy and the lack of openness Glasgow and Clyde. It is Scotland’s largest health and transparency comes from the very top of the board, which covers the people who I represent in health board. I witnessed that first-hand when I the Dumbarton constituency. I welcome the fact worked alongside families who experienced the that the cabinet secretary has recognised how Clostridioides difficile outbreak in the Vale of poor the health board is by ordering special Leven hospital where 38 people died. There was measures for it at stage 4 of the NHS board an independent review and a public inquiry, but it performance framework. appears that lessons have not been learned by the health board. I suspect that the problems are not The truth is that NHS Greater Glasgow and with the infection control team, and instead rest Clyde is failing—even the Scottish Government with the leadership at the very top, who did not act recognises that. It is failing its staff, who work so on the information that they had and effectively hard often with insufficient resources; it is failing covered up the problems. It really does not get patients, who are languishing on ever-increasing more serious than that, and it is symptomatic of waiting lists; and it is failing our communities, as the wider failures at the very top of the board. services are centralised away from their areas— making it difficult for those who are disadvantaged Waiting times for scheduled and unscheduled to access the services that they need. care are now through the roof. Despite the additional resource being provided by the cabinet The health board used to argue that secretary, things appear to be getting worse, not centralisation delivered better outcomes, but, for better. Let me illustrate that. the first time since records began, life expectancy in Scotland has fallen. That is a scandal in 21st John Christie is a well-liked local teacher. He century Scotland, and it is the measure on which was referred for a left knee replacement in June the SNP Government should be judged—and 2017. In July 2019, two years later, he was told judged harshly. that he needed a hip replacement first. He went for his pre-op in October 2019, but his surgery is I welcome some of the things that the cabinet unlikely to take place until August 2020. He is in secretary has done, but I also think that she has so much pain that he had to be hospitalised. He is been too lenient with those at the very top of NHS now barely able to walk. Almost three years on Greater Glasgow and Clyde. Frankly, I have had from his first referral, Mr Christie is still waiting. enough. That is intolerable. Jeane Freeman: Will Jackie Baillie accept that Fergus McMurdo is five years old. He needs his there is a contradiction between a Labour member adenoids removed. He will wait until October arguing that I should escalate NHS Greater 2020, more than a year after being seen by the Glasgow and Clyde to a higher level and the consultant, for his operation. In the meantime, he Labour motion citing escalation as an indication of is in pain and his condition is slowing his reading failure by the NHS? Is it not, rather, an indication development at school. That is the tip of the of a Government that is getting a grip of what is iceberg. In my casework bag, I have the details of going wrong and acting on it? [Interruption]. hundreds more cases in which people are being failed by NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde. The

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treatment time guarantee in that health board is, The NHS in Scotland is our most important simply, a joke. public resource and we must do everything that we can to ensure that it is properly funded and I turn to the out-of-hours service at the Vale of protected as a public service. As members will be Leven hospital. In 2018, there were 82 closures aware, almost 50 per cent of this Parliament’s due to a lack of GP cover. In 2019, the number of budget is spent on health. That clearly closures soared to 179. That is a 118 per cent demonstrates this Government’s commitment to increase, and that is despite me challenging the healthcare. health board—and, indeed, the cabinet secretary challenging the health board, during a meeting, Indeed, in the budget that was announced by with me, at the hospital in June 2019. Kate Forbes, whom I welcome as our new finance secretary, funding for the NHS in 2020-21 will rise The problems are repeated at Inverclyde royal to more than £15 billion for the first time since this hospital. The Sir Lewis Ritchie review of primary Parliament’s inception. The funding boost will care out-of-hours services reported in 2015. What allow our health service to continue to grow its has the health board been doing in the past five workforce, which, over previous years under this years? It has singularly failed to resolve the Government, has risen by more than 14,300 problem. I raised out-of-hours services again in whole-time-equivalent staff. That increase the chamber in December 2019, and I was told represents doctors, nurses, healthcare assistants that seven out of 70 salaried doctors had been and many allied health professionals and should recruited. be welcomed by all parties in the Parliament. An iceberg is currently melting faster than the In addition, patient satisfaction rates in Scotland speed at which NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde are soaring above the rates in other parts of the acts. The consequence of all that incompetence is UK. Some 86 per cent of people in Scotland rated that patients end up at the front door of A and E, their full in-patient experience positively in 2018, increasing waiting times for conditions that can and 83 per cent rated the overall care that their best be treated locally. GP surgery provided as “good” or “excellent”. The level of inaction and incompetence is truly In addition to the positive patient feedback, over outrageous, and the contempt of the chair and the past five years there has been a decreasing chief executive for MSPs is all too evident. year-on-year trend in rates of MRSA and C diff John Mason: Will the member give way? infection, which demonstrates that the Scottish patient safety programme is working to protect Jackie Baillie: No, I do not have time. patients. As a result of that programme, we have The chair and chief executive have not bothered some of the lowest rates of hospital-acquired to hold meetings with us in more than two and a infection in the UK. half years. It is bad enough that they ignore MSPs, When I was preparing for today’s debate, I but to ignore the cabinet secretary, in effect, is contacted my Westminster colleague, Philippa scandalous. Whitford MP, to talk about the Nuffield Trust’s There is no accountability, there is no research into the NHS in Scotland, which led to transparency, and there is a litany of failures. I ask the report, “Learning from Scotland’s NHS”, by the cabinet secretary, for the sake of my Mark Dayan and Nigel Edwards. The key findings constituents and the NHS, which we all hold close and themes of the research show the strength of to our hearts, to sack the chair and chief our NHS in Scotland compared with health executive. They are out of time and they should be services in the rest of the UK and even the rest of out of office. the world. In the research, NHS Scotland was 15:30 comprehensively compared with NHS services in Emma Harper (South Scotland) (SNP): I England, Wales and Northern Ireland. The authors welcome this debate, which affords the opportunity found that to discuss, positively, the progress that is being “Scotland has a unique system of improving the quality of made on addressing many of the challenges that health care” are mentioned in the Labour Party’s motion. that is delivered to patients, which As a nurse educator who worked on the front “focuses on engaging the altruistic professional motivations line of the NHS until May 2016, I want to recognise of frontline staff to do better, and building their skills to the outstanding work that our dedicated, hard- improve.” working and competent NHS staff do, day in and The authors went on to say that, in Scotland, day out, the length and breadth of Scotland. “Success is defined based on specific measurements of safety and effectiveness that make sense to clinicians.”

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The vast majority of the clinicians who were Government is clear that the staff working in our interviewed for the research agreed with that. The NHS are our most important asset. I realise that I authors went on to say: have gone over my six minutes, so I will just say “Scotland’s system provides possible alternatives for an that I welcome the debate and the opportunity to English system with a tendency towards too many short- highlight the fantastic work that is going on in our term, top-down initiatives that often fail to reach the front NHS in Scotland. We must make sure that we line. It also provides one possible model for a Northern Irish preserve that and keep the NHS safe for NHS yet to have a pervasive commitment to quality everybody who uses it. improvement, and a Welsh system described as needing better ways to hold health boards to account while supporting them in improving care.” 15:37 That independent research and the findings speak Annie Wells (Glasgow) (Con): This is a for themselves and serve as an example of how welcome debate and I begin with a thank you to all the NHS in Scotland, under the Scottish our NHS and social care staff. At key moments Government, is showing leadership across the throughout all our lives, the Scottish NHS has board. been there to support us. We can probably all remember a particularly compassionate doctor or The cabinet secretary mentioned technology nurse who helped us at a difficult time and made that can reduce the need for travel, helping to sure that our loved ones were looked after and mitigate the effects of climate change. In NHS comfortable. When my son was born and when my Dumfries and Galloway, a lot of great work has dad passed away, our NHS was there, as it has been done by the respiratory team using the been for so many of us at crucial moments. telemedicine approach for the past 10 years and the transforming team has been We are incredibly lucky to have a health service engaging with the attend anywhere, community of such quality that is ready to help when we need health synchronisation—CoH-Sync—and mPower it. The backbone of our health service is, of programmes. A lot of great work is being done. course, its staff. Its people are the most valuable resource that our NHS has and we must look after Alison Johnstone mentioned the Royal College the people who look after us. However, under the of Emergency Medicine’s event. I was the sponsor SNP Government, that is not happening. of that event and I welcomed the words from Dr Scotland’s NHS has suffered in each and every David Chung and from Kirsty, the doctor who year that the SNP has been in power. We all value spoke. She presented an overview of a really the NHS greatly, but it has been mismanaged by challenging work environment with many this Government at almost every turn. competing priorities on one particular night shift. However, she also said that she loved her job and Gillian Martin (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP): how busy it was. Will the member take an intervention? Alison Johnstone: No one who attended the Annie Wells: Not at the moment; I have just event that night could be in any doubt as to the started and I have a lot to get through. commitment of the people who work in our There are the visible headline problems that emergency departments. However, the young everyone can see. We have a sick kids hospital doctor said, “It’s not safe”; those were the words that was supposed to open years ago but is still that had gone through her head about the night lying shut, treating no patients. Staff are having to that she spoke about. That must be of grave work in older buildings instead and do not have concern to every one of us. access to new facilities where they could do their Emma Harper: As an operating room nurse jobs better. who worked in the recovery room in what were In my home city of Glasgow, the Queen sometimes really stressful and difficult Elizabeth university hospital has gone from one environments, I know that it is sometimes scandal to another. The problems just keep challenging to support a safe environment. coming. The handling of water contamination has However, the doctor who spoke also said that that been shambolic from the start. Information was part of her work was what drew her to the withheld from a parent that the death of her child emergency room environment. I agree that it can in 2017 might have been linked to water be challenging to create an environment that contamination, and since that death was reported, meets safety requirements, but everybody tries to it has emerged that Health Protection Scotland meet those challenges in order to support the reports identified contamination risks as far back safest and most effective person-centred care. as 2016, with dozens of individual cases. I want to address the specific point in the Labour Then there are the headline targets that have motion about staff morale. We know that a positive been missed: a 12-week treatment time guarantee staff experience makes for a better health service that has never been met, even though Nicola overall and I am pleased that the Scottish

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Sturgeon set the target herself in 2011; one in six Annie Wells: I am sorry, but I need to make patients with urgent cancer referrals is waiting progress. Recent figures showed—[Interruption.] more than two months for treatment; and, in A and Am I allowed to carry on? E, nearly one in seven patients is waiting more The Deputy Presiding Officer: Carry on, Ms than four hours to be seen, 600 patients are Wells. waiting more than eight hours, and 185 patients are waiting longer than 12 hours. How is that Annie Wells: Recent figures showed that 3,826 acceptable? whole-time nursing and midwifery posts for qualified and support staff were vacant. There Gillian Martin: Annie Wells says that in every were 802 more vacant nursing and midwifery year that the SNP has been in government, the posts in September 2019 than there were in health service has got worse. Will she not accept September 2018. That is the cost of a distracted that funding has increased by 50 per cent under SNP Government that is more focused on finding the SNP, £14 billion is coming this year and there and inventing grievance with the UK Government are 14,300 more staff than there were in 2006? than stepping up and sorting out the problems in Annie Wells: I absolutely welcome the our hospitals. increased funding from the UK Government—that Gillian Martin: Will the member take an is why the SNP has the money to spend on the intervention? health service. Members should listen to the end of what I am saying about the numbers of Annie Wells: I am in my last minute. people— How do we fix it? How do we start treating our Clare Haughey: Will the member take an NHS staff with the respect and support that they intervention? deserve? The UK Government’s huge funding increase to the Scottish budget over the next few Annie Wells: Sorry, but I need to make years means that there really are no excuses. progress. I am halfway through my time and not even halfway through my speech yet. As my colleague Miles Briggs said, we have set out plans to support the health and wellbeing of It is not the fault of our staff—not at all. They do NHS and social care staff. One of those policies is their absolute best in dire situations that are free parking for NHS staff, which seems to be the caused by those blunders. Those are the headline bare minimum that we can do for doctors, nurses problems, but under the surface, the picture gets and all the staff who make our health service what even more depressing. Doctors and nurses do not it is. get to do their job to the best of their ability because of the workforce crisis that has been We have set out ideas for better mental health created. support, more financial advice, health checks and sleep pods in hospitals for NHS night-shift staff to The Royal College of General Practitioners rest after shifts. All our plans have one thing at expects there to be a shortfall of 856 doctors in their heart, which is freeing up NHS and social Scotland by 2021, which is only going to be made care staff to focus on what they do best: caring for worse by the ageing workforce— patients. Clare Haughey: Will the member take an We should not take NHS staff for granted any intervention? longer. Let us support them and give them the Annie Wells: I have got too much to get backing that they deserve for being there for every through—sorry about that. single one of us, every single time. Clare Haughey: I thought that it was supposed to be a debate. 15:44 Annie Wells: Yes, it is a debate and I have Stuart McMillan (Greenock and Inverclyde) taken an intervention, thank you very much. (SNP): For Annie Wells’s benefit, I say that, proportionally, there are more GPs, more hospital Let us not forget that Audit Scotland has found consultants and more qualified midwives and that the SNP will struggle to meet its promise of an nurses in Scotland than there are in England and extra 800 GPs over the next decade. Wales. Away from GPs, the problems are just as Emma Harper: Will the member take an severe. There is an increasing lack of nurses and intervention? midwives. Recent figures showed that 3,826— Stuart McMillan: Okay. Emma Harper: Will the member take an intervention? Emma Harper: I thank Stuart McMillan for taking the intervention, even though he is sitting beside me.

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Does Stuart McMillan agree that Brexit is not Lothian and the putting in place of additional helping, because we are seeing a 90 per cent measures to examine the areas that have not reduction in the number of nurses and midwives operated as they should have done ought to be from the European Union who are registering? welcomed. Calls were made for special measures to be put in because of the concerns about those Stuart McMillan: Unsurprisingly, Emma Harper health boards. If the Scottish Government had not is absolutely correct in the point that she makes. introduced the escalation process, it would have [Interruption.] Some members might want to laugh been accused of trying to cover things up. but, unfortunately, Brexit will have a negative Thankfully, the Government put in place the effect on many aspects of society in Scotland, required measures, and I think that that is the act including the NHS. of a responsible Government. The aim of the Miles Briggs: Why did the First Minister cut the Government’s intervention is to ensure that a number of student nurse and midwife places when robust recovery plan is developed so that the she was health secretary? boards improve their position on performance and other issues as quickly as is practicable. Stuart McMillan: The SNP Scottish Government has increased the numbers each Jackie Baillie: Will Stuart McMillan take an year for the past eight years. Mr Briggs needs to intervention? do a bit more homework. Stuart McMillan: I am sorry, but I have already No member could say that the NHS is perfect, taken two. nor could any member highlight any organisation In her motion, Monica Lennon makes two asks. I that is perfect. If they were to do so, they would be have been to a few of the NHS Greater Glasgow lying. However, although the NHS has its and Clyde board meetings that she mentions in challenges, it is a magnificent organisation that her motion. Both the current and the previous delivers and which saves and rehabilitates lives. It health secretaries were in attendance, as were is absolutely right for members to highlight the Labour politicians. challenges that are faced in the areas that they represent, which are sometimes a result of a Committees of this Parliament regularly bring in service failing to meet the usual high standards. people to provide evidence. When I was first Every one of us will write to our health boards, elected in 2007, I was a member of the Audit local GPs and health and social care partnerships Committee, which undertook an inquiry into NHS regularly to highlight cases involving our Western Isles, which was an absolute basket constituents. If we see a pattern developing, that case. If anyone would like to do a search on must be addressed. Official Reports of that committee, I am sure that they will find the phrase “basket case”. At one The NHS is sometimes portrayed—we have point in time, that board had three chief executives heard this already, particularly from the Tories—as on its books: the one who had been put on being close to Armageddon, but it is not. Talking gardening leave; the one who was brought in to fix down our NHS does not help the morale of the the problem, who had to be put on gardening staff; it puts them under even more pressure and, leave; and the one who came in and fixed the coming on top of the extra demands that are being problem. placed on the NHS, it will make it harder to recruit into the service the people whom we require. Monica Lennon: Will the member take an intervention? Daniel Johnson: Will the member give way? Stuart McMillan: I am sorry—I am in my final Stuart McMillan: I am sorry; I have already minute. taken two interventions. There are challenges in my constituency, which Monica Lennon’s motion highlights a few things I have raised with the cabinet secretary and the that are happening in the health service, one of health board. However, a number of positive which is the public inquiry into what has happened actions have been taken, which I welcome, such in NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde and NHS as the building of Orchard View hospital, which is Lothian. It is right for that public inquiry to take a continuing care facility that serves extremely place, because the public deserve to know what vulnerable people. I welcome the building of the has happened. I do not disagree with Monica new Greenock health centre, which will be a state- Lennon’s mentioning that in her motion. After all, of-the-art facility in my constituency, and the fact we are talking about taxpayers’ money. If such an that lnverclyde was used as a pilot area for the inquiry had not been set up, the Scottish minor ailment service that has now been rolled out Government would have been accused of trying to elsewhere. There are areas of progress locally. brush everything under the carpet. Jackie Baillie: Will the member take an On a similar note, the escalation to level 4 of intervention? NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde and NHS

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The Deputy Presiding Officer: Mr McMillan is up and treatment waiting times are up. The only just closing. thing that is going down under the SNP Government is life expectancy. Stuart McMillan: There are some challenges, one of which relates to the out-of-hours GP I recognise that the mess is not of Jeane service. I have raised that matter directly with the Freeman’s making. She is trying to clean up the cabinet secretary and the health board. Clearly, mess that has been left by her predecessors. The the issue is of concern and needs to be fixed, but reality is that she is trying to clean up the mess the Tories in London could help to fix the problem that Nicola Sturgeon caused when she was health if they sorted out the pensions and overtime secretary. I say to Jeane Freeman directly that issues that are having an adverse effect on GPs sticking-plaster approaches will not do. If she does who want to provide an out-of-hours service. I the right thing and takes the appropriate action, I hope that the Tories will fix that problem when the will support her, but she does not have the luxury UK budget takes place on 11 March, but I doubt of time. that they will. The UK Government and the Tories I turn to the leadership of NHS Greater Glasgow have a bit of a cheek on the issue. People who are and Clyde. What will it take for the leadership to a bit more cynical than I am would probably say be removed? Over the past two years, nine out of that the Tories’ actions are one way in which they 14 boards have had a change of chief executive. are trying to downgrade the NHS, so that they can The chief executive and chair of NHS Tayside sell it off in a trade deal with the USA. were forced to resign because of financial I am conscious of time, so I will conclude. I mismanagement. The chair of NHS Lothian support the Scottish Government, which is trying resigned over differences with the cabinet to ensure that our health service is fit for purpose. secretary. What will it take for the clique at the top of NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde to go? Its The Deputy Presiding Officer: We are running members are responsible for cover-ups, lies, out of time—even for interventions—so please misinformation and patient deaths, but they are bear that in mind. still in place. What will it take for those responsible to move 15:51 aside? There has been a catalogue of failure after Anas Sarwar (Glasgow) (Lab): I put on record failure from the leadership of that board and, in my thanks to all our amazing NHS staff. I make it particular, at the Queen Elizabeth university clear to them that any criticism or failure that is hospital. Equipment was contaminated by blood highlighted, and any intervention that the cabinet and faeces. Faulty, Grenfell-style cladding had to secretary makes, is despite their efforts, not be removed; wall panels fell from the building; and because of them. pigeon droppings inside the hospital led to patient It is very clear that all is not well with our NHS deaths. Repeated incidents related to unsafe and that we have systemic problems, including a water supply led to the closure of cancer wards, lack of strategic direction, poor management, a patients were moved out of unsafe wards and lack of accountability and a culture of secrecy and children had to go out of the hospital and into a cover-ups. The end result is that patients and their hospice to get washed. Whistleblowers were families are being let down every day in Scotland. silenced and bullied. Water reports showed that, in Such a situation cannot go on. Two thirds of the week that the hospital opened, there was a Scotland’s population—more than 3.5 million high risk but the hospital still opened. The true people—now live under a health board that is in cause of patients’ deaths was hidden from their special measures. Six out of 14 NHS boards in parents and doctors’ infection control reports were Scotland are in special measures. If that is not a hidden and suppressed. sign of systemic failure, what is? Milly Main’s death was not reported to the There have not been only isolated incidents. procurator fiscal at the time that it happened. Mental health services are failing patients in When whistleblowers spoke out, health board Tayside. Patients are being failed at the Queen press releases spread misinformation and outright Elizabeth university hospital in Glasgow. A new lies. The way in which Milly’s parents were treated hospital has not opened in the . Health was unacceptable and disgusting. Every day for boards are unable to manage their budgets three years, they have had to relive the tragic loss properly year on year. The law on waiting times of their daughter. All the while, the health board has been broken more than 250,000 times and, leadership has tried to duck, to dither, to be last year alone, more than 500 children waited too evasive, to bully and to silence; that is not long for mental health treatment. Staff are acceptable. suffering, with sickness absence rates higher than What will it take for the cabinet secretary to lose they should be in every health board. The number faith in those people? What will it take for her to of reports of staff bullying is up, vacancy rates are remove the failing leadership team, chief executive

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and chair of that health board? The public have Austerity measures from the UK Government lost confidence and patients and their parents impact on people’s physical and mental have lost trust in that team. We all deserve better. wellbeing—that is a pressure. The cessation of The parents, the public and the patients deserve freedom of movement in the European Union and better. I will not stop until Milly Main’s parents get the withdrawal of research funding from that the justice that they deserve. I implore the cabinet institution are added pressures. NHS staff bear the secretary to do the right thing—to remove the chief brunt of the pensions squeeze by the Tory executive, the chair and the people who are Government, which leads to staff retention issues. responsible for what I regard as a crime scene. Despite these pressures, in the proposed She should start an independent investigation to budget we have the highest-ever allocation of get the answers that Milly’s parents deserve, so Scottish Government budget to our health and that it never happens again and we can restore care sector—over £15 billion, which is a record trust in our treasured and loved national health amount. Nobody here can dispute that. service. Staffing levels are up to a record high. The Government has proposed a safe staffing bill. As a 15:57 result of our efforts, staffing levels are up 11 per Gillian Martin (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP): It cent from when Labour was in government. There is right that we debate our health service. As has been an 8 per cent increase in the number of MSPs, it is our job to scrutinise how the most vital nurses and midwives, despite what anybody in the of public services is run and whether it achieves its Tory party tries to assert. We have protected the outcomes. student bursary for nurses, which is the highest in Anyone who has lived in a country with no the UK. England scrapped the bursary completely, national health service understands how fortunate and Wales offers only a quarter of the amount that we are to have healthcare that is free at the point we offer in Scotland. of need and a service that is staffed by dedicated, Members have quoted the Auditor General. Last caring professionals, to whom we owe so much. year, she said that more people had been treated When a Government’s health spending goes on time than ever before. However, we still need down, or ministerial decisions endanger the to improve on waiting times because if even one fundamental principles of healthcare for all or patient is not satisfied with the service, we always impact negatively on staffing, we should jump up need to rectify that. and down—absolutely. That is why I cannot take The motion highlights a lot of negative points for Tory members seriously when they talk about the debate, and that is Labour’s job. It is what the SNP NHS. did when we were the Opposition and Labour was In managing the NHS, our Government has in power. Back in the days of the Labour coalition increased spending in real terms in every budget Scottish Government, the SNP challenged Labour since it took office and, when required, it has taken on the fact that we had limited NHS dentistry targeted action to improve patients’ experiences. places. When we got into power, we sorted that, That is often done under a great deal of pressure. and now 96 per cent of the population is registered Those pressures include an ageing population, the with an NHS dentist. constraints of a fixed allocation of block grant We also complained about waiting times; in and—more recently—immigration policies in the particular, we complained about the condition of offing that do not take Scotland’s needs into the ageing hospital estate—rightly so, because it account. was in a shocking state as a result of Alex Cole-Hamilton: I agree with Gillian Martin underinvestment going back years. When we took that we want to improve patient experience, but power, we put our money where our mouth is and does she agree that sending patients time after embarked on the biggest capital investment time a letter that says that they will be treated in programme ever seen in the NHS estate. In my 12 weeks’ time, when they have to wait 40 weeks area, we have seen the Foresterhill health campus or 50 weeks, does not improve patient energy centre project; a new emergency care experience? centre; a new major trauma centre; the new Aberdeen community health and care village; and Gillian Martin: Absolutely. For every satisfied a new dental school, children’s hospital and breast patient—surveys prove that most patients are screening facilities at Aberdeen royal infirmary and satisfied—there will always be those who are let across the area. The new down. As MSPs, our job is to make sure that our healthcare hub was opened for the first admittance health boards look at that. It is the job of the last year. We look forward to the new Baird family Government to have schemes in place to improve hospital and the Anchor cancer centre on the ARI waiting times. campus. That is record investment by a Government that, in opposition, complained about

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the lack of it but had a suite of proposals to put that I believe that NHS Highland has the best into action and delivered on them. doctors, nurses and healthcare professionals. We should therefore be careful to make sure that their Like many of my colleagues, I looked at the positions are protected. However, asking them to Labour manifesto that brought Monica Lennon into do the impossible with limited finances places the Scottish Parliament in 2016. Under Labour’s unbearable and unrealistic stresses on them and proposals, NHS Grampian would be looking at a their families. Doing that demonstrates poor 13.7 per cent reduction in budget, which is £136 leadership. million less than it is getting from the SNP Government. I will never forget the motto on the cap badge that I was given when I joined the army. It said I am disappointed that the Labour motion simply, “Serve to lead”: a simple motto that some neglects to mention mental health. In my area, we managers forget when they get into the offices that have a new dedicated CAMHS centre, which the go with their appointments. We need to ensure SNP Government invested in. The centre, which that they remember it, because putting service opened last year, provides a modern care setting before self and spending more time looking after for adolescents with serious mental health those below them than those above them will diagnoses while reducing referral waiting times. ensure that those who follow them do so We have also put in place plans to put counsellors enthusiastically and are prepared to go the extra in schools for early intervention. mile without even needing to be asked. Anyone who is in a shadow position and has the I believe that NHS Highland has lacked, and still underlying ambition to do the job for real one day lacks, such leadership. I will give members an might want to reflect on whether their motion or example to show that. In October 2018, I was speech brought any solutions or serious demands contacted by a mother who was worried about her to the debate. daughter; she was worried about a child who was Monica Lennon: Will the member give way? finding life to be too much. Her child was a nurse, who was struggling at work. I contacted NHS The Deputy Presiding Officer: Ms Martin is Highland and when I finally got hold of the just closing. chairman of the board, I was told not to worry as Gillian Martin: If a motion is, like today’s there was a process in place and that the nurse’s motion, just a litany of complaints with a mere two manager would make contact. That did not asks of the Government, which have already been happen and matters dragged on. met, one wonders what that member would bring Only last week, I was approached again by that to the post if they were ever in government. I nurse’s mother. Again, I wrote to NHS Highland suggest that Labour’s shadow person takes up and I was told not to worry as a process was in Jeane Freeman’s offer to come up with hand. I replied saying that that frankly was not constructive proposals; if they do not, they are just good enough and that a more personal and carping from the sidelines. compassionate approach was needed. NHS Highland has still not responded to that request. 16:03 The cabinet secretary now has that Edward Mountain (Highlands and Islands) correspondence and I look forward to seeing what (Con): I thank the Labour Party for bringing she will do. The leadership that I believe is being today’s debate to the chamber. demonstrated by NHS Highland is not a form of leadership that I recognise. It lacks true Let me be clear—under the Scottish compassion and humanity. Government, NHS Highland has risen to level 4 on the escalation framework and is struggling with a In the short time that I have left in the debate, I series of crises. It has a £13 million deficit this turn to performance. In 2011, the Government year after numerous deficits year on year, there promised Scotland a treatment time guarantee of have been three chief executives in 15 months 12 weeks. Yesterday, I checked online to see how and treatment targets have been missed in almost NHS Highland was doing. In the quarter ending all areas. Finally, when it comes to leadership, we September 2019, NHS Highland was the worst- hear from the GMB that bullying that was identified performing health board in Scotland, with only 57 more than 18 months ago is still going on, and per cent of patients receiving treatment within 12 there is no evidence that action has been taken weeks. against the bullies who were identified in the Last week, I spoke to someone who is waiting Sturrock report. for a hip replacement. They cannot walk properly I have had meetings with healthcare or sit down for more than five minutes and they professionals and I know that they feel sleep for only two hours a night. Despite that, they undervalued and unsupported. I want to be clear have to go to work every day and, let me tell you, they work hard. Believe it or not, they still find time

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to smile. They have been told by the NHS that the Rather, a suffering patient is installed in the gallery waiting time for a hip operation is now 46 weeks: and their case is raised in the chamber as a way that is nearly a year of pain, suffering and no of bashing the SNP. I have to say that that verges sleep. They could not face that, and nor could I. on abuse and is not the way we should make Nor, may I suggest, could members—frankly, no decisions about healthcare in Scotland. one should have to. Miles Briggs: Will the member give way? The solution that they have chosen is to raid John Mason: No—not at the moment. their savings and pay for a private operation. They should not have to pay that money because they I want to touch on some specific points in the have paid tax all their life and expect, like I do, that Labour motion. First, I suggest that it is healthcare will be free at the point of delivery. The contradictory, as it says that most galling part about this is that, within a short “the Parliament ... pays tribute to NHS staff”, time of booking their surgery, they received a call from the NHS saying that they would be delighted but it also refers to to know that they had been removed from the “serious concerns about governance” waiting list: the waiting list that they had never been anywhere near the top of. To me, that is truly and galling. “leadership”. The motion identifies the problems that our Perhaps Labour means that it pays tribute to junior health boards face with poor management and staff but not to senior staff. I have to disagree with poor performance. The issue, of course, is how to that because, as I think Alex Cole-Hamilton said, resolve these problems. I have plenty of ideas on many managers and senior staff do an excellent how we could rebuild our cherished NHS, which job, albeit within tight constraints. one day we will all need. Labour is greatly overstating the problems in the Let me be clear: I am prepared to work across NHS. I suspect that Labour members will accuse the chamber to make things better, as is my party. me of being complacent, but I am not. Of course To start with, we need to lead and look after our there is room for improvement, but let us keep excellent front-line staff. We are not doing that at things in perspective because, otherwise, staff get the moment. If we do, we will get the best from discouraged and patients get unnecessarily them, but to do so, we need good leaders. Let us worried. be under no illusion, cabinet secretary: leaders are guided from the very top. Let us be honest: the Daniel Johnson: I wonder what perspective a problems that our NHS faces today are caused by closed hospital down the road provides the the very leaders that seem to blame everyone else member and what perspective he gets from a for their failures—but the people of Scotland see hospital at the other end of the M8 that makes through that, and we know where the blame lies. I people sick. am afraid, cabinet secretary, that the blame lies John Mason: That is an example of what I was with the Scottish Government. talking about. The member says that the Queen Elizabeth university hospital “makes people sick”, 16:09 but the statistics show that it is not an outlier compared with other large hospitals of similar size John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP): As that deal with similar specialties. others have said, there is a lot of good in the NHS and a lot of patients have had a good experience. Miles Briggs: Will the member take an Like me, colleagues might get messages through intervention? Care Opinion. They are sometimes critical, but John Mason: No. Sorry, but I cannot take one they are often positive. For example, the following after another. was posted two weeks ago by a service user from my constituency: As it happens, a number of MPs and MSPs attended an NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde “Unbelievable care received from all staff at Stobhill MIU tonight. In under one hour I left home, travelled to MIU was briefing on Monday. Some of what was said may checked in, triaged, assessed, x-rayed, diagnosed and have been confidential, but a lot of it was already treated for a wrist fracture. I feel this is world class in the public domain. That has helped me to form healthcare in action, thanks to SCN Lisa, the reception a clearer view of the Queen Elizabeth university staff, healthcare assistant and radiography staff for a first hospital situation. rate service. Nurse led care is in my opinion the way forward for Scotland. Well done all!” The Labour motion uses the word “scandal”, but Unfortunately, not many Opposition members sit we do not have reason to call it a scandal. There a happy patient in the public gallery and say what are different definitions of the word “scandal”, but a good experience they have had in the NHS. one is that it is

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“an action or event regarded as morally or legally wrong The Labour motion also mentions “financial and causing general public outrage.” sustainability”, which is all very well. However, we We have not yet established whether there has are again left to wonder what Labour means by been an action or event that is morally or legally that. If it means, “Let us have more money for the wrong. My feeling from what I have read and NHS,” would Labour cut local government funding heard is that a range of issues have sadly led to to pay for it? However, if it means putting more infections and deaths among young people there. I resources into primary care and potentially cutting hope that we all extend our sympathies and resources for hospitals, that is worth looking at. concerns to the families involved, as others have Financial sustainability includes living within our done. We will understand more once inquiries and means. It does not mean always hoping for or other work are concluded but, as I said, my demanding more money yet never explaining understanding is that the QEUH is not particularly where that money will come from. different from similar hospitals. We should stand up for the NHS, for staff and Our thoughts go out to the families—the loss of for patients, but I hope that the Opposition will also a young person is always a tragedy. However, as be prepared to look at the difficult challenges in a members across the chamber know, infections mature and balanced way. and deaths have, sadly, always happened in hospitals and that is likely to continue to be the 16:16 case, although in recent years the numbers have been reducing here and elsewhere. Healthcare Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab): has moved on amazingly in my lifetime and, today, The NHS is a remarkable institution and, in a many younger and older people are alive who sense, it will always be under pressure. In that, I would not have been in the past. agree with the cabinet secretary’s opening remarks. Ever-expanding knowledge and Anas Sarwar: Will the member take an technology mean that we can do ever more, intervention? growing expectations mean that we want the best for those who we care about, and a population that John Mason: No—not after the way Mr Sarwar is living longer means that more people have more spoke. To talk about a “crime scene” is ridiculous conditions that need more involved and prolonged and outrageous, and it totally undermines the interventions. NHS. The NHS faces many issues that are driven by Anas Sarwar: Will the member give way on that those forces, and austerity only exacerbates them. point? The most fundamental element of the crisis that John Mason: Because of what Mr Sarwar said, the NHS faces today is not born solely of a lack of I will not take an intervention from him. resource, although the broken waiting time guarantees and spiralling levels of bedblocking, as If death is caused by negligence or deliberate outlined by other members, are there for all to see. harm, yes, let us hold someone to account. However, not every death is preventable and we In today’s NHS Scotland, we have a brand new need to be mature in facing up to that. hospital that costs £1.4 million a month to keep closed and another hospital whose water and The BMA briefing makes the point that we need ventilation systems have caused infections and “a more mature and less blame focussed approach to deaths. In that regard, John Mason should look at targets”, the Official Report and think about how his words which I agree with. sounded and how they will read to anyone who has been affected by the issues and I remain uncertain as to whether escalation was circumstances at the Queen Elizabeth hospital. necessary at the Queen Elizabeth hospital. There is of course always room for improvement, but the We have a health system with the issues that I health board was already taking the situation just mentioned, as well as health board chairs seriously. resigning, health board chief executives sidelined and sacked, and two thirds of the population living The motion mentions performance, and I will in health board areas that are under special make a few comments on that. One measure of measures. performance is A and E waiting times, which is fair enough. However, the reality is that people turn up Those issues are not driven by demand and at A and E who do not need to be there and could those incidents were not created by cuts. They are be dealt with more suitably elsewhere. That signs of bad decision making and poor includes my mother who, aged 92, has been governance. Any examination of either of the referred to A and E a number of times. I am beleaguered hospital projects tells us that there is convinced that that is not the best place for her to something fundamentally wrong with oversight, be.

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accountability and basic decision making in our Jeane Freeman’s commitment to making NHS. progress, we cannot treat these matters as simply circumstantial issues to be dealt with by process. In the Edinburgh case, the new sick kids They are systemic issues that must be treated as hospital has remained shut and without a such. committed opening date, because ventilation systems are not up to standard in critical care. Ultimately, the Government must take However, the board signed off a contract variation ownership of a system that has been shaped by to downgrade the required ventilation rates. The 13 years of SNP stewardship, which can be variation reduced the standards for four-bed summed up by one hospital that cannot be opened rooms, but no one thought to join the dots and ask and another that should not have been opened. whether the four-bed rooms in critical care would I understand that, given her 20-month tenure, be impacted. Worse still, it was a health board the cabinet secretary is clearly not to blame for all document that provided the contractor with the those issues, but she must take responsibility for incorrect ventilation standards in the first place. what has gone wrong and, if she wants That was a typo that will cost millions, if not tens of constructive engagement—which I welcome—she millions, of pounds. must begin by acknowledging the seriousness, If the situation in Edinburgh is not bad enough, gravity and scope of the failures that have taken the situation in Glasgow, where there are place. Only when we hear that the Government is questions about whether key facts have been not simply treating these matters as business as suppressed, raises more serious and sinister usual can we have serious engagement and get concerns. In 2017, Health Protection Scotland together to look at the problems. Unless the reports showed a spike in hospital-borne Government faces up to the issues that it has infections, yet no action was taken. It took political created, it will be letting those hard-working staff pressure for that to be acknowledged and acted down, but it will also be letting down all of us who on. It took a whistleblower for the board to even depend so much on the NHS. get in touch with those who were affected, including, most tragically, those whose family 16:22 members had died. George Adam (Paisley) (SNP): Sometimes I In both situations, the basic oversight that we listen to debates in the chamber and wonder expect did not happen. Critical questions were not whether the Opposition parties live in some asked and processes to ensure compliance with alternative universe—cue laughter and noise from standards were either not in place or not up to the the Opposition. Miles Briggs spoke of real-world job of identifying those issues. scenarios. Sometimes I wonder whether he knows Ultimately, in both cases, there seems to be a what the real world is. He is possibly a stranger to basic problem with health boards’ ability to make it. However, do not get me wrong. decisions and take responsibility, all of which is Daniel Johnson: Will the member take an exacerbated by a culture of obfuscation and intervention? secrecy. Those are failures in governance of the most fundamental and serious nature that are not George Adam: I have just started. confined to NHS Lothian and NHS Greater I am aware of the challenges that the health Glasgow and Clyde. Nationally, the Auditor service faces and I believe that we need to be General criticised the financial management and looking at ways to address them. However, my lack of long-term planning by the SNP constituents appreciate the NHS and the people Government. Four health boards are in the highest who work hard within it. My constituents value the categories of special measures, with others fact that, when they really need medical support, plagued by serious allegations of bullying. In the our Scottish health service and the people who past two years, nine out of the 14 health boards work for it are there for them. have changed their chief executive and only two boards have had the same one for more than Many of my colleagues on the Health and Sport three years. That is a management turnover that Committee are probably too polite to say anything would make Manchester United blush. when I mention my wife, Stacey, who has a daily fight with multiple sclerosis. I find myself talking With such fundamental failures exposed and again today about how well our health service the public’s trust so badly dented, we have the supports her and people like her who are dealing right to ask where the buck stops. Who will take with long-term conditions every day. Is it always responsibility? We have reached a point where the perfect? No, but it can make a difference to all of glaring errors in governance must give rise to a their lives. fundamental question about the Government. It is not good enough for ministers to hide behind the I want to give this example of what happened excuse of structures and, although I recognise this week. Stacey went to see her consultant

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regarding her on-going mobility issues. She experience positively; since 2006, NHS staffing believed that they were not going to get any better. has risen by more than 14,300—11.3 per cent— Her story is the same as that of thousands of men which is a new record high level; and, on patient and women with multiple sclerosis in Scotland. safety, over the past five years, there has been a She went to the assessment and, within minutes, decreasing year-on-year trend in the rates of the consultant came up with a solution to her MRSA and C diff infections. problems; within minutes of receiving five Botox Constituents come to me day after day and injections, she walked from the treatment table to week after week, and I accept that there are her wheelchair. To many people that may seem challenges and difficulties and that we have to trivial, but to us, it was close to a marvel. face up to those issues. However, I say to When the consultant worked out what I do for a colleagues in the chamber that we should have a living, he started to talk to me about the NHS. That mature debate about them rather than chasing consultant works not only in Glasgow but in headlines and issuing press releases. We must London and he sees the massive difference have that mature debate about our health between our NHS and the one in England. He service—one of our national treasures—because, used the Botox injection that he had just at the end of the day, we are dealing with people’s administered to Stacey as an example. He told me lives, and every one of us in here values the that in London he would have had to get five health service. separate signatures to get access to the cupboard It is easy for some to criticise the Scottish that contained the solution. In Glasgow, he just Government and our NHS. What is difficult is unlocked the cupboard and administered the coming up with solutions to those challenges. That solution to Stacey. He told me that there were is the work of Government and those who take up challenges in Scotland, too, but that he was the responsibility for moving things forward. It is happier when he worked here. Stacey is now time for the Opposition parties in this place to take happier than she was beforehand, because our up that responsibility. health service worked for us. I know only too well that the NHS is our most important public resource, and we must do all that we can to 16:28 ensure that it remains properly funded. Jeremy Balfour (Lothian) (Con): I remind On that issue, let us look at what Labour offered members that I have a number of close family in its 2016 manifesto. It proposed to give the members who are doctors and nurses in NHS health service real-terms funding increases. That Scotland. sounds good and dandy until we look at what that I will start by making an obvious point. Health would have meant. As the cabinet secretary has has been devolved to the Scottish Parliament for already said, in this year alone, it would have 20 years; the health service is the responsibility of meant a cut of £1.4 billion to our health service— the Scottish Government. The fact that members that is how much the Labour Party’s plans would of the Government party constantly harp on about have cut the health budget by this year, yet Labour what is happening in other parts of the United members come and lecture us about the current Kingdom suggests to me that they are not willing state of our health service. to take responsibility for what has been happening Stuart McMillan: Does George Adam agree here in Scotland in the past 20 years. that that £1.4 billion pales into insignificance I am a member for Lothian, so I will concentrate beside the £2.4 billion that would have been lost to my remarks on that region. As we have heard from the health service since 2016 if we had followed other speakers in the past couple of hours, NHS Labour’s manifesto commitments? Lothian is in a perilous position. Its administration George Adam: Mr McMillan is correct, and he is important, but what is more important is the has gone to the next part of my speech, because I effect that its situation has on patients and families was going to say that, if we had followed Labour’s in Edinburgh and the Lothians. We are already plans, the sum that would have been lost would seeing that impact. We can have arguments about have been more than £2.4 billion. numbers, and about how we feel things are going, but ultimately, what is happening under the SNP Press releases are easy to do, but being a Government is that patients and families are being Government is hard work. That proves how far the let down. It must take responsibility for that. Labour Party is from ever being in government. Clare Haughey: Jeremy Balfour complains The fact is that we are delivering record-high about the Government comparing the health funding for health and social care, which will rise service in Scotland—the best performing health to more than £15 billion for the first time under the service in the UK—with the absolute disaster that 2020-21 budget. Further, on patient satisfaction, the UK Tories are managing in England, and with 86 per cent of people rate their full in-patient the NHS in Wales. It is valid to compare the health

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services across the four countries, given that should expect of them. It is not those people who Opposition members think that they could form the are responsible, but the Government. It is this next Scottish Government. Government’s failure. Jeremy Balfour: I genuinely did not quite follow I will conclude with a perhaps slightly more the minister’s point. My point is that we are positive request to the minister or the cabinet responsible for Scotland and that we would, secretary on changing places toilets in our perhaps, be in a much better place if the Scottish hospitals. I am pleased that the Government, Government concentrated more on what is under the Planning (Scotland) Act 2019, has happening here in Scotland than on what is ensured that all new hospitals will have changing happening in the rest of the UK. places toilets. That is a really positive step forward. However, many hospitals in Scotland do NHS Lothian no longer has a chairman, it has a not have such facilities, which creates problems chief executive who will be leaving during the for elderly people, and for people who have summer, and there is a hospital that is lying children with disabilities because they struggle to empty, but we hear no apologies at all from the change them, clean them and keep them Scottish Government. The sick kids hospital might appropriately when they are at hospital open eight years late. It would be interesting if the appointments. I would welcome a conversation cabinet secretary could confirm in her closing with the Scottish Government about whether we remarks the new date when the sick kids hospital can have changing places toilets not only in new will open, because the rumours— hospitals but across the estate. That would open Jeane Freeman: I am grateful to the member, the estate up and make it much easier for people because I will not be closing for the Government. who have to visit hospitals as out-patients, or to My colleague Ms Haughey will do that. visit others who are in hospital. First, I am happy to confirm that the timeline that I have set out for the sick kids hospital in NHS 16:34 Lothian remains on track. Secondly, I would be James Dornan (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP): I grateful if Jeremy Balfour would acknowledge that say to Jeremy Balfour that I agree that the health I have apologised in the chamber on more than service in Scotland has been devolved for 20 one occasion for the fact that that hospital is not years, which is probably the precise reason why it open. However, I have not apologised for making is the best in the UK. sure that it stays closed until it is safe for patients and staff. Before I make my next comments, I want to exempt Anas Sarwar and Daniel Johnson from Jeremy Balfour: I am grateful to the cabinet them. Both those Labour members made very secretary for confirming the date. There are good speeches. Nobody can fault Anas Sarwar for certainly a lot of rumours going around the city that his consistent campaigning on behalf of the family that will not happen, so I hope that she is correct. of Milly Main. We have to consider why the Scottish However, I cannot possibly support the motion, Government ignored the problems at the sick kids because it seems to be another motion on which hospital. Either it turned a blind eye, or it simply we are forced to sit and listen to the Labour Party did not want to engage on the subject. However, attacking one of our most beloved and hard- that is not where the crisis ends. If we look at the working organisations while dressing that up as rest of the estate in NHS Lothian, we see that St concern for patients. John’s hospital has departments having to close or not being open all the time, and that the Princess Alex Cole-Hamilton: Will the member give Alexandra eye pavilion in Edinburgh has major way? structural problems, but there is nothing in the James Dornan: Alex Cole-Hamilton is not in the infrastructure programme about its being renewed. Labour Party. That party seems to have no There are problems upon problems. consideration for the morale of a workforce that What that leads to is what we hear from the daily goes above and beyond to improve the lives people at the coal face. We hear from the Royal of each and every one of us here, and the life of College of Nursing that 60 per cent of nursing staff every individual who chooses to make Scotland say that they are under too much pressure, and their home. The service is still free at the point of that 60 per cent say that they cannot give the care need, and is the envy of countries across the that they want to give because of the lack of staff world. and the work that they have to do. That is the It was shameful, although not surprising, that Ms reality that people are facing today in our hospitals Lennon criticised the Scottish Government while across Scotland. As we sit here debating the forgetting to mention the Administration that is subject, hard-working doctors, nurses, physios failing so badly in Wales under the party that she and cleaners are going way beyond what we

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wants to be in control of the NHS in Scotland. I The NHS cares for us free at the point of need, knew that we would hear Labour colleagues and without judgment. It supports families; 4,500 saying, “Oh, same old Wales chat,” but Labour is births were registered last month in Scotland, and in power in Wales, so those statistics are the only those babies were brought into this world safely by ones that we can use as a benchmark for how an army of midwives, nurses, doctors, health Labour would do here. Labour members claim all visitors, healthcare support workers and countless the time that Labour is one UK party, so let us not others. pretend that what is happening in Wales, and how We have GPs who, during summer heatwaves the Labour Party is doing in the only place in the and winter storms, risk their health and safety in UK where it has managed to hold on to power, has braving adverse conditions. We have hundreds, if no relevance—although I am sure that that will not thousands, of professionals who attend to our change, at some stage. ageing population: physiotherapists, occupational An organisation that has more than 160,000 therapists, podiatrists and home-care support employees will always have difficulties. However, workers travel across cities and rural areas to take in staff surveys, staff overwhelmingly see care of the most vulnerable citizens. themselves as being supported by their line Let us not pretend that the health service is not managers and others. That does not sound like a up to the job or is in crisis. It is a health service health service in which the staff hate to go to work that has some serious difficulties, andf I respect every day, or do not feel respected. the concerns that are being expressed about poor The First Minister and the cabinet secretary are hospitals. However, I have asked what is being fully committed to the healthcare improvement suggested. Should we open them because they plan. There is no question but that—particularly in need to be opened? We should ensure first that these uncertain political and financial times—the they are safe, then get the patients in. Scottish Government has put protection of the A member of my family recently had a stroke. NHS and its funding at the forefront of its agenda. We found her in her house and called for an If that is not the case, why do we usually have to ambulance, and the first arrived in minutes. A defend ourselves from attacks saying that we are second arrived to take her to hospital, and she spending too much on the NHS, rather than was taken straight to the Queen Elizabeth spending more on the long list of things—local university hospital. She has been treated authorities, transport, this, that and the other—that impeccably by its staff and will be treated are whatever members want in their press impeccably until she is well enough to get back out releases on the day. If other parties seriously care to be looked after by care services at home. about the health service, they should support the extra money that the SNP has put into it instead of That is the sort of thing that we need to be able making a long list of complaints. We could all do to talk about. All we hear from the Opposition is that about any service. that they love the staff but the health service is rubbish, followed by the reasons why that is the The Presiding Officer (Ken Macintosh): Mr Government’s fault. Their argument has to be Dornan, will you move your microphone closer to more nuanced than that. George Adam was right: your mouth? if we are to have a serious debate, Opposition James Dornan: It is not often that I am asked to members should not just come with complaints but do that, Presiding Officer. Thank you very much. come with some solutions, too. So far, we have [Laughter.] I see that it has not been met by not heard any solutions from Opposition members. universal approval. The Government is committed to improvement, In the last budget, the finance secretary with financial resources being increased and new committed an extra £454 million to NHS front-line strategies being implemented. It is our job, as services to improve waiting times and patient MSPs, to support those changes and to thank outcomes. That was welcomed by staff and people who are among the hardest-working patients across Scotland. members of our communities for doing some of the toughest jobs around. Members should not We all receive NHS complaints; it is part of our come here and try to get publicity. role. However, I speak for my office when I say that I can conclude only that the number of complaints, although all are serious to the 16:40 complainers, is nowhere near the number of Brian Whittle (South Scotland) (Con): I start constituents whose lives have been improved by by declaring an interest: one of my daughters is a top-drawer care and support. Constituents often medic who works in the Scottish NHS. speak to me about how the NHS and its incredible staff have saved their lives or the lives of loved I thank the Labour Party for bringing the debate ones, or have changed their lives for the better. to the chamber and note that, once again, it is in

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Opposition debating time that we get the chance Annie Wells brought up the workforce crisis, to debate health. I wonder what the Scottish which has only continued to deepen. GP surgeries Government is so afraid of. are closing at an alarming rate, and we are 860 GPs short. We have a shortage of nurses, AHPs, We were given a right old list of issues today— occupational therapists and consultants. Staff are the Scottish Government should be embarrassed leaving because the environment that they are about that, if not ashamed of it. Opposition being forced to work in is not good enough. The speaker after Opposition speaker has listed a RCN has reported that, according to its survey, 60 litany of ways in which the SNP Government has per cent of its members state that they are under failed our healthcare professionals. too much pressure. Monica Lennon was right to raise the continuing During her tenure as Cabinet Secretary for catastrophe at the QEUH in Glasgow. Members of Health and Wellbeing, Nicola Sturgeon cut training this Parliament had to continually drag the Scottish places for nurses—now we have a shortage. We cabinet secretary into the chamber before the also have a shortage of midwives. I direct this whole truth about the contamination of the wards comment at Emma Harper: there is no shortage of and the deaths of young patients was realised and applicants who want to become midwives, but action was taken, although Health Protection there is space for only a fraction of those Scotland had identified the risks as far back as applicants. Further, physiotherapy applications 2016. outstrip places four to one. I think that John Mason’s speech was Scottish applications for medical school are disgraceful. I wonder whether he realises that 10- capped. We all know about the Scottish straight-A year-old Milly Main’s death has now been referred students who have been rejected by Scottish to prosecutors, three years after her death. He medical schools because of a lack of course should consider how his comments will be taken availability. The net result is an understaffed NHS, by parents who are watching at home. I thought which leads to unacceptable levels of stress and that that was an absolute disgrace. related illness in the NHS. We have heard how the sick kids hospital in We need to give staff the time to deliver the Edinburgh still has not opened, eight years after it expertise for which they trained. was supposed to, because it failed a last-minute inspection of the ventilation system. We then I say to Emma Harper, Stuart McMillan, Jeane discovered that the Scottish Government and the Freeman and Gillian Martin that there is no health board knew about the problems as far back shortage of applicants from Scotland to work in as 2018. our NHS; there is just a chronic lack of available training places. It is disappointing that the cabinet As Miles Briggs said, a culture of bullying is secretary and her cohorts hide behind Brexit. emerging, again, in the health service. The Sturrock review was an independent review of Jeane Freeman: I do not believe that I hid bullying in NHS Highland—an issue that was behind Brexit at all. I simply pointed out, as many relentlessly championed by my colleague Edward people throughout our country have done, that Mountain. We have had 100 radiographers walk Brexit has an impact. That is all that I ask the out in Ayrshire and Arran, citing bullying. I raised member to acknowledge. the issue of bullying in the Scottish Ambulance I also ask the member to acknowledge that, in Service with the cabinet secretary at the Health the past eight years, we have increased the and Sport Committee, and she admitted that she number of midwifery and nursing training places, had had similar approaches in her surgeries. we have increased the number of medical school Other MSPs have added their voices to those places and we have increased the number of AHP concerns. places. If the member wants us to do more with The RCN has stated that more than one in three the proposed £15 billion budget, which I hope that of its members have experienced bullying, and the he will vote for, I would welcome a discussion with BMA briefing reports similar concerns. There is him about the other parts of the health service very strong evidence of a systemic culture of from which he wants me to cut resources so that bullying across the NHS. The revelations are we can increase training places in any of those hardly new, but they have a devastating effect on areas. staff retention. What is the cabinet secretary doing Brian Whittle: I point out to the cabinet to remedy that, especially given the recent secretary that she has just been given £700 million revelations that followed the resignation of the more to spend on the NHS, in Barnett chair of NHS Lothian? As Alex Cole-Hamilton said, consequentials— it is claimed that there is a blame culture in the Scottish Government. The Minister for Public Health, Sport and Wellbeing (Joe FitzPatrick): It is all allocated.

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Brian Whittle: If the minister wants to speak, he I echo Alison Johnstone’s comment that the should stand up. NHS should not be used as a political football. The tone of debates such as this one does little to It is not just about how much money the convey the high esteem and value that I—an NHS Government has; it is about what the Government nurse for more than 20 years—want for my former spends it on. colleagues. Gillian Martin: Will the member take an I was informed recently that when the chair of intervention? an NHS board visited staff in a highly pressured Brian Whittle: I am still responding to the area and asked what could be done to help them, cabinet secretary. the staff’s answer was, “Make them stop saying bad things about us.” That is the direct effect that The cabinet secretary was right to say that she some of the rhetoric from this place has on our is increasing training places for doctors by 800 in NHS staff, day in and day out. It demoralises the years to 2029, but, according to Audit them. I can tell members that that is the case, Scotland, the problem is that the Scottish because I have heard it. Government cannot justify that arbitrary number and, on current trends, the most likely outcome is Let me answer some of the points that members that Scotland will still be 664 GPs short by then. have made in the debate—and I will try to calm The Government has to show its workings. down, because my anger is obvious, given some of the things that I have heard in the debate. Let us be clear. We have world-class medical staff, who train to the highest standard and are Miles Briggs talked about car parking. This SNP prepared to put patient care above their own Government abolished car parking fees at all needs, and the Scottish Government gives them a NHS-owned hospitals— very poor environment in which to work. Miles Jenny Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab): Not Briggs set out our plans to support the health and all of them. wellbeing of NHS and social care staff by providing free parking, mental health support, Clare Haughey: All NHS-owned car parks. That financial advice, health checks and sleep pods in saved staff, patients and visitors more than £39 hospitals. I would throw in access to a hot meal, million. The Tories supported Labour with their PFI 24/7, with the time to eat it. If we put those very car park building scheme. achievable options together, we get a significant Miles Briggs: Will the member take an investment in the health and wellbeing of our intervention? healthcare professionals. Clare Haughey: Annie Wells raised issues The message is clear: the Government should around vacancies. Scotland has more GPs than put the health and wellbeing of our healthcare anywhere else in the UK, more consultants, more professionals first, because they deserve no less. nurses and more psychologists. She raised those Warm words from the cabinet secretary are no issues on a day when the Tory UK Government substitute for actions that will demonstrate that we has announced a new immigration policy that will care. If the Scottish Government refuses to act, affect nurse recruitment. Staff nurses may not the increasing strain on the service that our NHS reach the visa points threshold, and carers may delivers will become unsustainable. not reach the threshold either. We need those workers in this country to look after our most 16:47 vulnerable people, and yet they have been The Minister for Mental Health (Clare labelled “low skilled”. What is low skilled about Haughey): As is the case for healthcare systems empathy, compassion and building trust with the across the world, our NHS in Scotland is facing most vulnerable people in our society? On that increasing demand and challenges that require point, I am happy to take Miles Briggs’s long-term, sustainable solutions. However, we intervention. should not forget that our NHS delivers a first- Miles Briggs: I thank the member for taking my class service, albeit that there are areas that need intervention, although it took a long time before to improve. I echo the cabinet secretary in paying she allowed me to ask this. Given what she has tribute to the admirable work that our healthcare just said, why will she not commit now to taking staff carry out on a daily basis. action to lift the parking charges that NHS staff That is why it saddens me that, time after time, face here in Edinburgh, in Glasgow and at we hear Opposition speakers praise our NHS staff Ninewells hospital? That is what Parliament is and then, in the next breath, condemn their calling for, and the Government can do it. The UK performance. It was truly shocking to hear a Government is providing £7 million and it will cost member of the Labour front bench use the phrase only £2.7 million to lift those charges. Will the “medical mafia” in this chamber. minister commit to doing that? It would make a

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huge difference for the NHS staff who work at the strategy, the development of the national health three hospitals. and social care integrated workforce plan and the programme of work that is being taken forward by Clare Haughey: I challenge Miles Briggs to tell the Scottish access collaborative. me what part of the NHS he wants to cut. All the money in the budget that is coming to the NHS, The progress that is being made through the including consequentials, has been accounted for. implementation of those plans and initiatives is tested through a continuous cycle of scrutiny and We have had record levels of investment in the support. Annual reviews are a key component of NHS in Scotland since this Government took office the work that we do in partnership with all NHS in 2007. The plans for 2020-21 will take total boards. We review their performance across three health portfolio funding to more than £15 billion for key areas: staff and clinical and financial the first time, increasing the funding for front-line governance. That process is about accountability NHS boards by £454 million. As we heard from and scrutiny, but we remain committed to working George Adam, that is £1.4 billion more than would with leaders across the service to respond to the have been available to invest in 2020-21, based challenges that we collectively face. on Labour’s spending plans in the last Scottish election, and is equivalent to 40,000 nurses. The Before I conclude, Presiding Officer, can I NHS England budget was cut by 5 per cent—£1.5 address the point that Jeremy Balfour made about billion—between 2010 and 2019, while in Scotland changing places toilets? the Government has increased the budget by 13 The Presiding Officer: I am sorry, Ms per cent, so I will take no lessons about budgets Haughey, there is no time. You are already over from Tories. time, so you will have to conclude. Supporting improvement is not just about money Clare Haughey: In that case, we would be but about how we use it. A substantial proportion happy to discuss the matter with Jeremy Balfour. of those resources has been invested in expanding our workforce, with overall staffing Supporting the Government’s amendment is the numbers up by 11.3 per cent since the best way to stand up for our dedicated NHS Government came to power. More than 14,300 staff—by making sure that they continue to receive additional whole-time equivalent staff are now the support and investment that are vital to the working in the NHS. We recognise that those staff delivery of services to benefit current and future are our greatest asset and that we must strive NHS patients in Scotland. continuously to deliver the best possible employee experience. The iMatter staff experience report 2019 shows that staff in the NHS overwhelmingly 16:55 feel that they are treated with dignity and respect. Sarah Boyack (Lothian) (Lab): We owe it to That is the view of 78 per cent of them, and 80 per the staff in the NHS, our constituents and cent feel that their manager cares about their everybody who needs NHS services to ask the health and wellbeing. questions that we have posed in today’s debate. That is the job of us all, regardless of whether we However, we know that problems occur and that are on the Government front bench or another we can always do more. That is why the health party’s front bench or are a back bencher. Our job secretary has commissioned the multi-agency is to represent our constituents. short life working group on culture specifically to look at what more can be done to promote Fantastic work is carried out in the NHS every consistent behaviours, effective relationships and single day. If we were asked, we would all say that enhanced confidence and trust across the we know of someone in our family whose life had workforce. Those figures on staff experience stand been transformed or saved by that immense work. alongside the statistic from the 2018 Scottish It is also our job to highlight where there are household survey that overall public satisfaction issues, whether they are governance issues, with local health services remains high, at 80 per leadership issues, performance issues or issues of cent. financial sustainability. Those are the core parts of our motion today. It is about standing up for our The cabinet secretary spoke earlier about our NHS by making sure that it is the best that it can commitment to whole-system reform and the be. impact of the integration of health and social care. We must not ignore the impact on NHS staff of The Presiding Officer: Ms Haughey, please the pressures that they have to deal with, which conclude. are internalised. It has already been mentioned, Clare Haughey: That commitment can be seen but I repeat that the RCN finding that 60 per cent through the range of improvement initiatives that of nurses believe that they are under too much we have put in place, including the waiting times pressure at work echoes surveys that were carried improvement plan, the 10-year mental health out as part of the health and social care work on

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staff pressures that was done last year, and the experiences when something goes wrong. BMA survey that looked at the pressures on Governance and accountability are critical, doctors. because those things must not happen again. When patients die and when people lose a child, We know that there are pressures on staff and we need to know that lessons have been learned. we know that there is a huge issue with how That is what this is about. resources are actually used in practice. It is therefore important that we hear the voices of I say to the SNP back benchers who talked staff, because their hard work is crucial to the about Opposition members being critical that, in success of our NHS services. the days when we had Labour health ministers, those ministers did not escape their own back We also have systemic problems here, and we benchers holding them to account and being are not doing our job as members of the Scottish critical when it was appropriate. That is our job. Parliament if we do not acknowledge the fact that six of our mainland health boards are in special As Opposition members, we also need to be measures. That is not normal and it is not positive and constructive. In our motion, we praise acceptable. There are reasons why those health the fantastic work that our health service does, but boards are in special measures and we need to we make two key points. The health secretary and learn from the facts that have led to that situation. her team need to be in regular touch with the health boards so that they know what is happening Miles Briggs: Does Sarah Boyack share my on the ground. Recently, all the members for the concern that the cabinet secretary has not outlined Lothian area met NHS Lothian. Although we knew why the chair of NHS Lothian left and what his that the chief executive was retiring, we did not concerns with this Government’s control of NHS know that the chair was going, but we were Lothian were? constructive in our questions. Many of us were The Presiding Officer: Could members please concerned about the fact that we do not know keep the noise down? definitively when the new sick kids hospital will open. There are issues to do with processes, and I Sarah Boyack: I do share that concern. There think that the cabinet secretary needs to hear is something unprecedented about the debate on directly from the people involved on how those one level: all the Lothian MSPs, except for the processes work and whether they can be Government party MSP, signed a letter on 5 improved. February because we were all concerned about the issue. Whether the experiences are good or A raft of health projects are under way at the bad, they need to be fed into the system so that moment that need to be looked at. It is not a lessons can be learned and people’s voices can question of being critical for the sake of it. We are be heard. That is absolutely crucial, and it is why simply doing our job of making sure that things are we have said that the cabinet secretary must have as good as they can be in the health boards. annual meetings with health boards—which is My final point is about our relationships with the something that Labour introduced—and that we health boards and local government, and how our must make sure that there is transparency. When integration joint boards are working. Earlier today, people leave the NHS, and there is a high turnover the Local Government and Communities of staff, we must listen to them, although not Committee received some excellent evidence on uncritically. Their voices need to be heard, how money is spent in the health service and by because if we have a systemic crisis, we need to our local authorities. One of the key pressures address it. relates to the ability of the front line of the NHS to Having a successful NHS is one of the most look after people, to provide them with treatment important things in Scotland—none of us will when they need it and to make sure that they disagree with that. It is not about being negative leave hospital when they are healthy. about the SNP Government; it is about wanting to Last night, Richard Leonard and I received a make our NHS the best that it can be, given the fantastic briefing from Age Scotland, at which we huge amount of resource that goes into it. That is heard about the cost of people being stuck in about standing up for our NHS staff and, crucially, hospital. That is not just a financial cost; there is a for patients. The passionate speeches that we health cost for the people concerned. We need to have heard from across the chamber are make sure that the whole of our health system testament to that. works, from the preventative health side to the The comments that were made by Jackie Baillie care service. There needs to be a joined-up and Anas Sarwar about what has happened in the approach. That is why accountability and Queen Elizabeth university hospital and the wider transparency are crucial. We cannot make impact on health need to be listened to. It is not assumptions. When things go wrong, they need to just about a waste of money; it is about what can be fixed. be life-transforming, tragic and heartbreaking

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It is not a case of simply being critical; we need Business Motions to come up with solutions and learn lessons. The question needs to be asked whether, with the benefit of hindsight, things could or should have 17:03 been done differently. That is what our motion is about. It is in the interests of our NHS that we do The Presiding Officer (Ken Macintosh): The not just work together and praise what is good, but next item of business is consideration of a number that we make sure that when something goes of business motions. I invite Graeme Dey to move wrong, there are consequences and we learn from business motion S5M-20904, in his name, which that so that money is spent to the best effect to sets out a business programme. benefit all our constituents. That is why we have Motion moved, held this afternoon’s debate, and that is why I hope that members will vote for our motion and That the Parliament agrees— the Conservatives’ amendment. There should be (a) the following programme of business— no pressure on our staff. Whistleblowers need to Tuesday 25 February 2020 be listened to and their concerns need to be acted on. 2.00 pm Time for Reflection followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions followed by Topical Questions (if selected) followed by Standards, Procedures and Public Appointment Committee Debate: Assistance for Political Parties followed by Stage 1 Debate: Period Products (Free Provision) (Scotland) Bill followed by Committee Announcements followed by Business Motions followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members’ Business Wednesday 26 February 2020 2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions 2.00 pm Portfolio Questions: Culture, Tourism and External Affairs; Education and Skills followed by Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party Business followed by Business Motions followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members’ Business Thursday 27 February 2020 11.40 am Parliamentary Bureau Motions 11.40 am General Questions 12.00 pm First Minister's Questions followed by Members’ Business 2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions 2.00 pm Ministerial Statement: COP 26 - Our Contribution to Global Climate Action followed by Portfolio Questions: Health and Sport followed by Stage 1 Debate: Budget (Scotland) (No.4) Bill followed by Business Motions

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followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions 2 timetable for a bill, and S5M-20907, on the 5.00 pm Decision Time extension of the stage 1 timetable for a bill. Tuesday 3 March 2020 Motions moved, 2.00 pm Time for Reflection That the Parliament agrees that consideration of the Consumer Scotland Bill at stage 2 be completed by 6 followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions March 2020. followed by Topical Questions (if selected) That the Parliament agrees that consideration of the followed by Scottish Government Debate: Each for Children (Scotland) Bill at stage 1 be extended to 24 April Equal: Celebrating International 2020.—[Graeme Dey] Women’s Day 2020 Motions agreed to. followed by Committee Announcements followed by Business Motions followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members’ Business Wednesday 4 March 2020 2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions 2.00 pm Portfolio Questions: Communities and Local Government; Social Security and Older People followed by Scottish Government Debate: Scottish Rate Resolution followed by Education and Skills Committee Debate: STEM in Early Years Education followed by Business Motions followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions 6.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members’ Business Thursday 5 March 2020 11.40 am Parliamentary Bureau Motions 11.40 am General Questions 12.00 pm First Minister's Questions followed by Members’ Business 2.30 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions 2.30 pm Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body Question Time followed by Portfolio Questions: Finance followed by Stage 3 Proceedings: Budget (Scotland) (No.4) Bill followed by Business Motions followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions 5.00 pm Decision Time (b) that, for the purposes of Portfolio Questions in the week beginning 24 February 2020, in rule 13.7.3, after the word “except” the words “to the extent to which the Presiding Officer considers that the questions are on the same or similar subject matter or” are inserted.—[Graeme Dey] Motion agreed to. The Presiding Officer: I invite Graeme Dey to move business motions S5M-20906, on the stage

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Parliamentary Bureau Motions Decision Time

17:03 17:03 The Presiding Officer (Ken Macintosh): The The Presiding Officer (Ken Macintosh): The next item of business is consideration of five first question is, that amendment S5M-20882.3, in Parliamentary Bureau motions. I ask Graeme Dey, the name of Jeane Freeman, which seeks to on behalf of the bureau, to move motions S5M- amend motion S5M-20882, in the name of Monica 20908, on the designation of a lead committee, Lennon, on standing up for national health service and S5M-20909, S5M-20910, S5M-20911 and staff and patients, be agreed to. Are we agreed? S5M-20912, which relate to the approval of Members: No. Scottish statutory instruments. The Presiding Officer: There will be a division. Motions moved, For That the Parliament agrees that the Economy, Energy and Fair Work Committee be designated as the lead Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) committee in consideration of the Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill Adamson, Clare ( and Wishaw) (SNP) at stage 1. Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) That the Parliament agrees that the Fuel Poverty Beattie, Colin ( North and Musselburgh) (SNP) (Additional Amount in respect of Remote Rural Area, Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Remote Small Town and Island Area) (Scotland) Campbell, Aileen () (SNP) Regulations 2020 [draft] be approved. Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) That the Parliament agrees that the Fuel Poverty Crawford, Bruce () (SNP) (Enhanced Heating) (Scotland) Regulations 2020 [draft] be Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- approved. shire) (SNP) Denham, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) That the Parliament agrees that the Representation of Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) the People (Data Matching) (Scotland) Regulations 2020 Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) [draft] be approved. Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) That the Parliament agrees that the Representation of Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) the People (Annual Canvass) Amendment (Scotland) Order Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) 2020 [draft] be approved.—[Graeme Dey] FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, and Badenoch) (SNP) Freeman, Jeane (Carrick, ) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, and Lauderdale) (SNP) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lochhead, Richard () (SNP) Lyle, Richard ( and Bellshill) (SNP) MacDonald, Angus ( East) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (Ind) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, and Stonehouse) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Ross, Gail (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Russell, Michael () (SNP) Somerville, Shirley-Anne () (SNP)

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Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Wightman, Andy (Lothian) (Green) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) The Presiding Officer: The result of the Torrance, David () (SNP) division is: For 59, Against 61, Abstentions 0. Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) Amendment disagreed to. Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) The Presiding Officer: The next question is, White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) that amendment S5M-20882.1, in the name of Miles Briggs, which seeks to amend the motion in Against the name of Monica Lennon, be agreed to. Are we Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) agreed? Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con) Members: No. Ballantyne, Michelle (South Scotland) (Con) Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) The Presiding Officer: There will be a division. Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) For Bowman, Bill (North East Scotland) (Con) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Chapman, Peter (North East Scotland) (Con) Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Ballantyne, Michelle (South Scotland) (Con) Corry, Maurice (West Scotland) (Con) Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) Davidson, Ruth (Edinburgh Central) (Con) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Bowman, Bill (North East Scotland) (Con) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Golden, Maurice (West Scotland) (Con) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Gray, Iain () (Lab) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con) Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) Chapman, Peter (North East Scotland) (Con) (Con) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Corry, Maurice (West Scotland) (Con) Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) Kelly, James (Glasgow) (Lab) Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) shire) (SNP) Lamont, Johann (Glasgow) (Lab) Davidson, Ruth (Edinburgh Central) (Con) Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab) Denham, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Lindhurst, Gordon (Lothian) (Con) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Lockhart, Dean (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Mason, Tom (North East Scotland) (Con) Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab) Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Freeman, Jeane (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) Rumbles, Mike (North East Scotland) (LD) (SNP) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con) Golden, Maurice (West Scotland) (Con) Smith, Elaine (Central Scotland) (Lab) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab) Lauderdale) (SNP) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) Tomkins, Adam (Glasgow) (Con) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)

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Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) (Con) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) The Presiding Officer: I think that some Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) members were a bit confused when they shouted Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) “No.” The result of the division is: For 120, Against Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) 0, Abstentions 0. Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Amendment agreed to. Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) Kelly, James (Glasgow) (Lab) The Presiding Officer: The next question is, Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) that motion S5M-20882, in the name of Monica Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lennon, as amended, on standing up for NHS Lamont, Johann (Glasgow) (Lab) staff and patients, be agreed to. Are we agreed? Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Members: No. Lindhurst, Gordon (Lothian) (Con) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) The Presiding Officer: There will be a division. Lockhart, Dean (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Lyle, Richard (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) For MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Ballantyne, Michelle (South Scotland) (Con) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) Bowman, Bill (North East Scotland) (Con) Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Mason, Tom (North East Scotland) (Con) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con) McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (Ind) Chapman, Peter (North East Scotland) (Con) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) Corry, Maurice (West Scotland) (Con) (SNP) Davidson, Ruth (Edinburgh Central) (Con) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab) Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Golden, Maurice (West Scotland) (Con) Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Ross, Gail (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Rumbles, Mike (North East Scotland) (LD) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) (Con) Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con) Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) Smith, Elaine (Central Scotland) (Lab) Kelly, James (Glasgow) (Lab) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab) Lamont, Johann (Glasgow) (Lab) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab) Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Lindhurst, Gordon (Lothian) (Con) Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Lockhart, Dean (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) Todd, Maree (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Mason, Tom (North East Scotland) (Con) Tomkins, Adam (Glasgow) (Con) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (Ind) Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab) (SNP) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Rumbles, Mike (North East Scotland) (LD) Wightman, Andy (Lothian) (Green) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab)

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Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con) (SNP) Smith, Elaine (Central Scotland) (Lab) Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) The Presiding Officer: The result of the Tomkins, Adam (Glasgow) (Con) division is: For 62, Against 58, Abstentions 0. Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Motion, as amended, agreed to, Wightman, Andy (Lothian) (Green) That the Parliament has serious concerns about Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) governance, leadership, performance and financial Against sustainability within the health service, noting that six territorial NHS boards are at level three or higher on the Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) performance escalation framework; notes the forthcoming Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) public inquiry into the scandals in NHS Lothian and NHS Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Greater Glasgow and Clyde; considers that challenges and Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) risks within the NHS are not being satisfactorily addressed Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) by the Scottish Government, to the detriment of patients Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) and NHS staff; pays tribute to NHS staff for their dedication Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) to patient care and is worried that more than half of doctors Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) and nurses surveyed by BMA Scotland and RCN Scotland Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) link heavy workloads to negative impacts on their own Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- health; believes that the Scottish Government must be shire) (SNP) more transparent on its stewardship of the NHS, in Denham, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) accordance with Open Government principles, and that the Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) culture of secrecy must end; calls on the Scottish Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Government to ensure that ministers are accountable to the Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) public and staff through the chairing of annual health board Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) meetings; agrees that the Parliament should have the Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) power to take evidence from all departing health board Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) chief executives and chairpersons; believes that there is a FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) need to improve the holistic care and support provided to Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) NHS and social care staff, including pre- and post-shift Freeman, Jeane (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) support, in order to promote wellbeing; condemns bullying (SNP) in any part of the NHS, and calls on the Scottish Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Government to bring a full debate on the Sturrock review Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) before Parliament at the earliest opportunity. Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and The Presiding Officer: I propose to ask a Lauderdale) (SNP) single question on the five Parliamentary Bureau Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) motions. The question is, that motions S5M-20908 Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) to S5M-20912, in the name of Graeme Dey, on Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, be agreed to. Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) Motions agreed to, Lyle, Richard (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) That the Parliament agrees that the Economy, Energy MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) and Fair Work Committee be designated as the lead MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) committee in consideration of the Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) at stage 1. Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) That the Parliament agrees that the Fuel Poverty Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) (Additional Amount in respect of Remote Rural Area, Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) Remote Small Town and Island Area) (Scotland) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) Regulations 2020 [draft] be approved. McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) That the Parliament agrees that the Fuel Poverty McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) (Enhanced Heating) (Scotland) Regulations 2020 [draft] be McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) approved. (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) That the Parliament agrees that the Representation of Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) the People (Data Matching) (Scotland) Regulations 2020 Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) [draft] be approved. Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Ross, Gail (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) That the Parliament agrees that the Representation of Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) the People (Annual Canvass) Amendment (Scotland) Order Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) 2020 [draft] be approved. Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine)

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Prehistoric Rock Art rings”—I now know that they are not Celtic rings but cup and ring marks. To my astonishment, the details of the Cochno stone came up. I knew about The Deputy Presiding Officer (Christine cup and ring marks, because I have witnessed Grahame): The final item of business is a them throughout Scotland, but I had never heard members’ business debate on motion S5M-20055, of the Cochno stone. Subsequently, I found out in the name of Gil Paterson, on the Cochno stone that the local people were well aware of its and the social value of Scotland’s prehistoric rock existence. The Cochno stone is not just any stone art. The debate will be concluded without any with cup and ring marks; it is one of the finest question being put. examples of its kind anywhere in Europe, which, in Motion debated, that case, probably means the world. It is 100m2 That the Parliament congratulates Dr Kenny Brophy of and cup and ring marks of a wide variety of sizes the University of Glasgow Archaeology Department on the and formations are carved over its entirety. Are the extensive work on prehistoric rock art throughout a wide markings ritual, religious or astronomical? Do they expanse of West Dunbartonshire; notes that this includes describe a place or are they good, old-fashioned numerous excavations in the Faifley area of Clydebank, graffiti? That is for someone else to say, but I do including, in particular, the Cochno Stone; understands that not think that they are graffiti. this is one of Europe’s most important examples of rock carvings, and that this was entirely uncovered and I have always been extremely interested in intricately documented, including a full digital scan and things that humans have left or placed under the recording; notes that this important work by Dr Brophy and his university team was assisted over many months by ground, particularly anything that could be volunteers from far and wide, including local people and described as art. I am afraid that I am an art buff. I school pupils, and considers that this project is a model for also have a deep interest in antiquities. For the collaboration between experts, well-practised helpers and a past 20 years or so, my interest has been drawn to very supportive, well-informed community that wants to China, where some of the world’s most fabulous bring to the wider world the iconic art that is there to be buried sites exist. They stretch back to prehistory. exposed, enjoyed and celebrated by all. I even ventured on my own into an disused mine where the stone was quarried that made the 17:10 world-famous Chinese fine porcelain, near Gil Paterson (Clydebank and Milngavie) Jingdezhen—the town where Ming and Qing (SNP): I welcome many folk to the gallery. I thank priceless porcelain treasures were made and Dr Kenny Brophy, Alison Douglas and their painted and are made to this day. Jingdezhen is colleagues from the University of Glasgow; Pierre off the tourist map, except for anoraks such as me De Fence and Sandra Love from Knowes Housing with a passion for oriental art. Association; Jonathan McColl, leader of West What does that have to do with the Cochno Dunbartonshire Council; Auchnacraig nursery stone? I can hear Kenny Brophy in the gallery school; St Joseph’s primary school; and thinking that, even from here. Let me explain. Edinbarnet primary school. They are all in the Typically, the Chinese will take a site that has gallery to listen to the debate. Everyone I have been buried, expose it, then cover it up with a mentioned—and will mention—has been involved building. They will probably have people like Dr in the Cochno stone project. I am sorry that the Brophy and his team headquartered in the pupils from Clydebank high school archaeology building, and they will also excavate the club have been unable to attend, but they have surrounding area. At the same time, they will set also been heavily involved in the programme. out everything in such a way that the general What is the Cochno stone and why do I know public and local community can view and about it? Every year, I produce a calendar, on experience what is available in their own which I explain and highlight something unusual or backyard. Local people will always be engaged in special in my constituency. That something is not the excavation and they will deal with the me. In the spring of 2016, a West Dunbartonshire commercial opportunity that always comes with Council official showed me a huge stone with a such places to benefit the local economy. cup and ring mark, which is an ancient carving that Some sites that I have seen are truly gigantic goes back to the stone age. I thought that it would and phenomenal in scope. The biggest site that I be a great idea for my next calendar, so I went have experienced is in Xian, where the terracotta back in the late summer of that year to take a warriors are housed. It is hard to describe the photograph. However, I was unable to find a trace sheer size of the place to people who have not of the big slab, because, by that time, the witnessed it. The parliamentary chamber would fit undergrowth had reached to 3 feet above my into in 50 times and more. It is enormous. head. The Chinese also do the same thing with sites Undeterred, I went home and googled the that are of the same size as or smaller than the location with a search that contained “Celtic Cochno stone. They use the magic mix of

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archaeology, science, academic study, economic clapped, but we do not permit applause from the development, learning and pride, all wrapped in gallery. No more applause please—only the the one venture. The Cochno stone is now applause from other members of the Parliament covered for its own protection, and I believe that it will be permitted. could and should be uncovered and re-covered with a purpose-built functioning space, as is used in the Chinese model. 17:20 Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) Members might be thinking that this is Paterson (SNP): First, I thank my colleague Gil Paterson for with pie in the sky, but the process has already bringing this fascinating debate to the chamber. started. Dr Brophy and his team have already The Cochno stone lies about a mile north of my uncovered the Cochno stone, thoroughly home and I feel pretty ashamed that I have to examined it, documented it in every way, including admit that I was unaware of it until a few years digitally, then covered it over again in a much ago. To have one of Europe’s most important safer way that means that it can be easily examples of rock carving on your doorstep is uncovered in a much better way than has really something, but all too often, that is what happened in the past. happens—history can be right on our doorstep To his credit, Dr Brophy has gone on to uncover and we know nothing about it. a whole series of other huge carved outcrop slabs As we have heard from Gil Paterson, who has over a wide area. I guess that the whole site is at been working to raise awareness of this amazing least 10 square miles, and I would describe it as piece of our heritage for several years, the work being plastered with slabs with ancient carvings. In that is being done on the Cochno stone is of his endeavours, Dr Brophy has persisted with enormous importance to Scotland’s heritage and great humility and encouragement, and he has equally important on a global archaeological scale. brought the local people well and truly into the operation. He has visited schools, set up school At this point, I will apologise to any of the projects and done numerous local presentations at experts who I know are in the gallery today—if any evening meetings—too many to mention. of my research facts are wrong, I happily stand to be corrected. Here goes: the bronze age Cochno Dr Brophy has struck up a particularly good stone measures 42 feet by 26 feet and was working relationship and partnership with Knowes documented in 1887 by the Rev James Harvey. It Housing Association, which is the local housing features around 90 carved indentations and is association right in the middle of the site. It is considered to be one of the finest sets of neolithic active in developing a site for public use. or bronze age cup and ring markings in Europe. The Knowes Housing Association has gone The cup and ring marks on the stone, which are above and beyond supporting and assisting the believed to date back to 3,000 BC, are project. What a joy for me to see a team of accompanied by an incised pre-Christian cross set professional and semi-professional archaeologists within an oval and two pairs of carved footprints. in fair numbers being matched with many Each foot has only four toes. The stone was schoolchildren, and all of them engaging in reburied in 1965 to protect it against vandalism. archaeology, with the children then voluntarily In 2015, the Cochno stone was partially re- taking their interest on to high school. I cannot exposed for investigation during a three-day dig by thank Dr Brophy and his team, along with Knowes a team involving archaeologists from the Housing Association, the staff and volunteers, University of Glasgow, and a more complete re- enough for what they are doing and the way they exposure followed a year later. Following a larger are doing it. excavation in 2016, archaeologists have used 3D Presiding Officer, excuse the pun, but we are imaging technology, as Gil Paterson outlined, to just scratching the surface. We have something of make a detailed digital record of the site. More real significance that needs to be explained, than 100 prehistoric carved symbols—more than shown to the public and, in the best possible way, had previously been recorded—were identified on exploited for the benefit of all, especially the local the Cochno stone following analysis of laser scans people in Faifley. I hope that tonight’s debate will and the photographs that were taken in 2016. help us to realise the true potential of the Cochno There are many theories as to what they might stone and the wider site. The way to do it is the mean, which range from an ancient form of writing, Chinese way. Dig and scrape the dirt away, to markings with religious or spiritual significance, protect it, take pride in it, show it and then make a boundary markers, star maps, or simply decorative living from it with a new facility. Surely that will be markers. the best outcome. [Applause.] What we do know is that the stone is evidence The Deputy Presiding Officer: I say to guests that, back in the day, the Clyde was an important in the public gallery that it is lovely that you have artery, possibly connecting sea and islands,

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perhaps around the coast to Bute and Arran. Huge archaeology but the public. One of Dr Brophy’s credit must go to Dr Kenneth Brophy from the most recent endeavours—a project to uncover and University of Glasgow, who led the digs in 2015 digitally scan the Cochno stone in West and 2016, for his on-going work. He and his team Dunbartonshire, which is in my region—has have been the driving force behind documenting received particular attention. The Cochno stone is and raising awareness of this fantastic wonder of a massive panel of rock that was first documented our world. Of course, I need to mention the army in 1887. As has been said, the stone features of volunteer diggers, two of whom are my various cup and ring carvings that are considered constituents from Lenzie, Jean and Tom Tumilty. to be one of the finest sets of petroglyphs in Scotland. After the stone’s initial discovery, it was Praise must also go to Faifley Rocks!, which is a studied and mapped by various experts and was project researching prehistoric rock art that has visited by an intrigued public. Following several done a huge amount of work on the stone using instances of vandalism, the decision was made to excavation, survey, oral history and archival rebury the stone in order to protect it, which, research. The group does so much to promote our thankfully, preserved the stone for future study. wonderful heritage and it aims to make archaeology fun and accessible to all. It is great to In 2016, Dr Brophy uncovered and studied the see the old stereotype of fuddy-duddy Cochno stone with the help of a group of archaeologists finally being consigned to the dedicated experts and volunteers. Working with history bin. I honestly believe that, if there were the Spanish heritage company Factum Arte, more groups throughout Scotland doing that type Brophy digitally scanned the stone. He and his of work on a contemporary basis, that would team plan to use the scans to create a replica of greatly enhance our knowledge of history and it the Cochno stone that will be placed near the would engage future generations to delve into our original site, allowing the original stone to be amazing past. preserved while still giving people access to the rock art. In conclusion, I again thank Gil Paterson for bringing this fascinating debate to the chamber The collaborative work on the Cochno stone and the many people involved in reviving the project ignited further efforts to preserve and wondrous Cochno stone. document Scotland’s prehistoric rock art. One example of those efforts is Scotland’s Rock Art Project, which is a community-based initiative that 17:24 discovers, maps, scans and creates 3D models of Maurice Corry (West Scotland) (Con): I Scotland’s prehistoric rock art. Archaeologists on congratulate Gil Paterson on bringing this the team are training volunteers across Scotland excellent and interesting subject to debate. It is to record prehistoric carvings and upload them to wonderful to see so many people in the gallery, the project’s online database. The database allows particularly young people from our schools, as well the project team to analyse the rocks in a more as teachers and councillors, in support of the precise manner and to increase public awareness debate. The efforts of Dr Kenny Brophy and many of the carvings. Before the creation of the others to make Scotland’s prehistoric rock art database, contextual information about the many more well known are commendable. It is an examples of rock art in Scotland was not available example of dedication to the preservation of to the public. Through the collaborative work of Scotland’s rich history, as well as a commitment to many individuals, digital scans of Scotland’s rock educate others on the significance of our rock art. art along with information on the location and age The term “rock art” is an overarching one that is of the rocks and the types of carvings found there defined as meaning prehistoric man-made are now available to anyone who wants to see markings on natural stone. Petroglyphs, or rock them. carvings, are the most common type of rock art I join colleagues in supporting the on-going found throughout Scotland. Most of our rock art collaborations that are producing valuable insights dates back thousands of years to the bronze and into Scotland’s past and promoting public neolithic ages. Experts believe that those stone education of the rock art in Scotland. Those carvings could have been made to show land projects are not only beneficial in educating the ownership, chart stars, mark ritual places and map world about Scotland’s history; they serve as an landscapes. However, many experts also believe excellent example of what can be accomplished that the carvings never had one fixed meaning and through collaboration. Here in Scotland, we have a that their purposes changed over time, depending long and vibrant heritage to study and preserve. on the new generations that discovered them. People from around the world come to experience Dr Brophy’s focus on Scotland’s prehistoric rock our culture and history and we, too, should seize art has brought thousands of examples of it to the any opportunity to experience it. Many institutions attention of not just experts and students of in Scotland and elsewhere are contributing to the preservation of Scotland’s history and our future

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success. I support—as I hope we all do—the important research. It is the first major research institutions that are working so diligently to project to focus on prehistoric rock art in Scotland. maintain Scotland’s prehistoric rock art and their The project is funded by the Arts and efforts to educate the world on its significance. Humanities·Research Council and hosted by Historic Environment Scotland in collaboration with the University of Edinburgh and Glasgow School 17:28 of Art. It is a fantastic project that aims to enhance Claire Baker (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab): I the understanding and knowledge of Scotland’s congratulate Gil Paterson on securing this debate extensive rock art through engaging with and highlighting the work that has been communities and encouraging their direct undertaken in his constituency. Members’ involvement in research. The project trains business debates provide opportunities to give community teams to record prehistoric carvings particular significance to issues that are important and be a resource for people who find treasures in to local communities but which often have wider their communities. The information that is importance for the whole of Scotland. The Cochno gathered by the public and the community teams stone is a good example of that, so I welcome this increases the knowledge and understanding of the discussion of the relevance of its rediscovery. carvings and raises awareness of them locally, It is fascinating to read about the history of the nationally and internationally. Cochno stone, such as its initial discovery, its The Scotland’s Rock Art Project website is intentional burial and its re-emergence into the fascinating, with many examples of mysterious public view and academic knowledge. The story carved symbols that were created on rock from its creation to the present day is one of place surfaces approximately 5,000 years ago. Those and community. The involvement of volunteers prehistoric carvings, known as rock art, are and local schools in its current appreciation important to understanding our ancient culture. demonstrates the potential for our heritage to Although they are mysterious, they include some foster community cohesion and to give people common images, symbols and marks that are pride in and ownership of the places where they found in various forms around the world in caves, live. rock shelters and open spaces. While some are Archaeology is an important discipline and the figurative and feature animals or boats, others are work of archaeologists should not be marginalised. more abstract and lead to theories of maps, Although the number of archaeologists who are astrological alignments and rituals. employed through local authority environmental Scotland’s Rock Art Project looks to answer and historical services has decreased as budget some of those questions. The data that is pressures have squeezed those services, the collected will enable researchers to analyse the particular skills and expertise of archaeologists significance of the rock art to the people who must be employed when needed. made and used it, to examine how the importance It was interesting to read about the collaborative of carvings has changed through time, and to approach that was taken in Clydebank and the focus on how and why people value the carvings leadership that was shown by Dr Kenny Brophy today. and the University of Glasgow archaeology In my region of Mid-Scotland and Fife, there are department in bringing together many partners to many examples of rock art, and I know how undertake the work. passionate people can be about recognising the In January, I was pleased to attend the importance of their heritage and the need to not parliamentary reception to celebrate the 75th lose or neglect those remains of our ancient anniversary of Archaeology Scotland. It was a culture. great opportunity to hear about the value of In Parliament, we have previously debated the Scotland’s archaeology and how important it is in significance of the Wemyss caves. I recognise the developing skills, engaging young people, sterling work of local people who, through the enabling community involvement and promoting Save Wemyss Ancient Caves Society, have lifelong learning. There were brilliant contributions preserved, highlighted and made accessible the from young people about how archaeology was a Pictish carvings and rock art in the challenging positive experience for them and about the environment of the caves. I also recognise all their knowledge, confidence and enjoyment that they efforts that have resulted in the digital mapping of got from their involvement in projects such as the the artwork. new attainment through archaeology employability programme. It has been an interesting debate, which I hope will encourage more people to become involved in Maurice Corry mentioned Scotland’s Rock Art the Scotland’s Rock Art Project, and to appreciate Project, which is a great way to make archaeology and value their important surroundings. accessible and to involve communities in

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17:33 images, but in our modern arrogance, we must Stewart Stevenson (Banffshire and Buchan remember that the electronic world is quite an Coast) (SNP): I, too, thank Gil Paterson for giving ephemeral one; the electronic images might us the opportunity to debate this interesting vanish quickly and become inaccessible to us. subject. We are talking about something that is However, the stone will probably outlive any of the very old, so it is entirely appropriate that the four technology that is being used—excellent as it is as oldest members of this Parliament are all present. a way of reaching out across the world to tell the I note that I am the fourth oldest of those four, but story of this archaeological endeavour and we are all of an age at which antiquity is of creating a database that allows people across the particular interest to us. [Laughter.] world to study the carvings from the Cochno stone and see echoes of them in other areas. The Cochno stone is of uncertain age. Some of my research says that it is 5,000 years since it It is interesting. I thought that the word “Cochno” was produced and other research says that it came from cochlea, the Greek word for snail, dates from the third millennium BC and, thus, is because I had not properly looked at the stone. I perhaps not quite as old. then realised that the carvings were not snails and were much more like cups. Gil Paterson is ahead of me, as he has converted to the metric system. He said that the We have had an interesting short debate and it stone is 100m2, while my notes say that it is 42 is tremendous to see so many of those who have feet by 26 feet. I am a mathematician so I had to been involved in the project in the public gallery. do the arithmetic, and he is absolutely spot on: 42 Just as I, in primary school, was given a little feet by 26 feet is 100m2. I am glad that Gil got that ammonite—a fossil that was billions of years old— right. that inspired me, I hope that this project will inspire many in the area where the stone is located. For Something as old as the Cochno stone is Dr Kenny Brophy and his team, the schoolchildren always fascinating. People of all ages can who have been involved and the community, this realistically engage with anything that throws us is an important part of their history but it will also back to a previous age and which has mystery be part of their future. around it. One of the first things that I wondered was where this name came from. It appears that it is from cauchanach, which is the Gaelic for “place 17:37 of little cups”. When we look at what is on the The Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Fair stone, that is a credible explanation, although it is Work and Culture (Fiona Hyslop): I, too, not a certain one; we will probably never have congratulate Gil Paterson on lodging the motion that. We know that the stone is named after a and securing the debate. I will refrain from Cochnol house that was on the site before we referring to mysterious antiquities in responding to found the stone, but that is not to say that the the fourth-oldest member of Parliament, Stewart house was there before the stone. The stone was Stevenson, who is—just as well—not listening. almost certainly there before the house was built I add my congratulations to Dr Kenny Brophy by the Hamiltons, some 100 years ago. and his team at the University of Glasgow’s Although the stone was buried, the locals archaeology department for their remarkable work continued to remember it over a long period of in discovering and sharing Scotland’s time and it was a source of stories and inspiration archaeological story, and in demonstrating its for stories, like many such ancient artefacts. The social value by connecting it to our contemporary fact that it has been dug up, reburied and dug up lives. again provides an interesting comparison with For those who were not previously aware of the China, on which Gil Paterson, with his passion for Cochno stone in West Dunbartonshire—I was one all things from the east, threw light when he talked of them—the debate has brought alive part of about it. Scotland’s history that we should understand and To come up to date, the University of Glasgow, appreciate. It will have been fascinating for Factum Arte and the local community are now members to hear about one of the most extensive involved in engaging with and protecting the stone, neolithic rock art sites in Europe, and its unique and in cleaning the area in which it stood and history. removing the ground around it so that we can actually see it. The fact that Gil Paterson could not The decision in 1965 of the Ancient Monuments find the stone, because of overgrowth on the site, Board to rebury the stone to protect it from vandalism might seem to be strange today, as we tells us everything that we need to know about the work to support as many people as possible to previous neglect of the stone. access and enjoy our heritage. Not until 2016, It is great that the modern technology in a 50 when Dr Brophy led his team to uncover the stone megapixel camera has been used to create 3D to conduct an extensive examination and create a

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detailed record of the markings was it possible for Glasgow have done in unearthing our prehistoric the stone to be enjoyed and appreciated more rock art. That major project is funded by the Arts widely. and Humanities Research Council and is hosted by Historic Environment Scotland. It is the first Rather than working in isolation, Dr Brophy’s major exploration of prehistoric rock art in team recognised the social value of the discovery, Scotland and uses digital recording techniques so they shared their findings with local schools and community engagement to record, preserve and the wider community. In doing so, they and understand our rock art heritage. opened up a dialogue with people in the local community who, in turn, shared their memories of As part of the project, the team has collaborated playing on the Cochno stone as children. In that with Dr Brophy on his current work, Faifley Rocks!, way, the team used the project to collect additional which uses the excavations and 3D imaging of the data that has helped to develop our understanding Cochno stone as a starting point for exploring the of the location and the nature of rock art in the benefits and values that rock art can bring to the area. community, and confirms Faifley’s place as Scotland’s rock art capital. Directly after the Community archaeology is happening across debate, members of the Faifley community will Scotland. I will ask Historic Environment Scotland gather in Parliament to speak about their to share with interested members information experiences of being involved in the project, and about some of the interesting projects that are about the ways in which their local archaeology taking place. has touched their lives. I look forward to joining The University of Glasgow’s archaeology them, because I expect it to be a powerful department describes its approach as“ engaged demonstration of how art—even art from several archaeology”, which involves exploring how, millennia ago—can connect people to their place, through engagement with communities, enhance participation and provide benefits for archaeology can have relevance and be beneficial wellbeing and learning. to society today. Rock art does not just have local significance; it Despite Dr Brophy’s clear focus on prehistoric can tell us about the evolution of our international monuments, he considers himself to be a relationships and our global sense of place. We contemporary archaeologist, which means that he know, for example, that cup marks and cup and is interested not in what we can learn about ring carvings are also found in Norway, Sweden prehistoric society, but in what the traces of and Denmark, and that the similarity of the motifs prehistory can tell us about the modern world. suggests that neolithic and bronze age That is an interesting philosophical approach that communities were in contact. we can all learn from. What is striking about his International links are an important aspect of the department’s work is the passion for bringing University of Glasgow’s archaeology department’s archaeology into people’s everyday lives in order work. The connections that have been built in the to reach individuals who might not usually engage Mediterranean and near east help us to with heritage. understand Scotland’s past in its European and Dr Brophy’s research in Balfarg in Glenrothes is international contexts, and encourage us to work another excellent example of that. There, he has with others in pursuit of solutions to shared monitored the relationship between the urban and challenges, such as those that are associated with the prehistoric for two decades, and has our changing climate and landscapes. Gil documented the various ways that the monuments Paterson’s reference to China and how have been used by local people. He consulted challenging circumstances are used as people in the community; he asked how much they opportunities made the case well. know about the monuments, how they could be A good example is work that the department better used and how green spaces in the town undertook to create a story map in Cyprus to could be improved. Through engaging local people memorialise the heritage of the abandoned forest in a discussion about their past, he was able to village of Karterouni, which was sadly lost in forest involve them in thinking about the future shape of fires in 2016. The fires resulted in a huge loss to their environment. the heritage of the area, but the team collected the People have been creating rock art all over the intangible cultural heritage—the memories, stories world for many years. Like all good art, no single and activities that mattered most to local people— interpretation or meaning can be assigned to it— and used the information to map places of local indeed, it might have meant different things to importance, including a 100-year-old olive tree and different people. As we have heard from Claire locally significant religious places. Baker, Scotland’s Rock Art Project was I have spoken in the chamber before about the established in 2017, and is building on work that importance to Scotland of intangible cultural Dr Brophy and the team at the University of heritage. Heritage is not only rooted in the

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physical, but is present in the ideas, beliefs, I once again commend Dr Brophy and his team memories and values of our people. It is in the for their insightful work, and I thank Gil Paterson stories of places or stones that are handed down for making sure that we have had the chance to through generations. Intangible cultural heritage is recognise their achievements and the wider social a very important part of our cultural heritage. It is a significance of our prehistoric heritage and the living form of heritage that is continuously Cochno stone. recreated, and which evolves as communities The Deputy Presiding Officer: That concludes adapt their practices and traditions in response to the debate, which has been on a very interesting their environments. In that way, it is inclusive, topic. representative and community based. Intangible heritage forms an invisible bond Meeting closed at 17:46. between people over generations and millennia, as well as connecting us in our shared sense of place. It is that connection to place, together with our strong sense of community and our rich shared history, that we are striving to protect, understand and celebrate in all our work on the historic environment. The importance of place is at the heart of our historic environment strategy, “Our Place in Time”, and it has been central to the development of our soon-to-be-published national culture strategy. Dr Brophy and his colleagues have shown us that understanding our prehistoric art and past can have contemporary relevance by feeding our sense of place and the sense of self that arises from understanding who we are and where we have come from. We are very fortunate to live in a country with such a rich and vibrant heritage. Finding new ways to champion it and to inspire a new generation through involvement and understanding is, to me, an undertaking that is of immense value.

This is the final edition of the Official Report for this meeting. It is part of the Scottish Parliament Official Report archive and has been sent for legal deposit.

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