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1 COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 2 HOUSE VETERANS AFFAIRS & EMERGENCY PREPAREDNESS 3 AND HOUSE TRANSPORTATION SUBCOMMITTEE ON HIGHWAYS 4 CAPITOL POST OFFICE LOBBY 5 TUESDAY, AUGUST 15, 2017 6 10:08 A.M.
7 PUBLIC HEARING - EMERGENCY TOWING LIGHTS AND SAFETY REQUIREMENTS FOR HEAVY DUTY TOW TRUCK PURSUANT TO HB 1414 8 AND HB 1678
9 VETERANS AFFAIRS & EMERGENCY PREPAREDNESS COMMITTEE
10 BEFORE: HONORABLE STEPHEN BARRAR, MAJORITY CHAIRMAN HONORABLE KAREN BOBACK 11 HONORABLE ROSEMARY M. BROWN HONORABLE LYNDA SCHLEGEL CULVER 12 HONORABLE GARY W. DAY HONORABLE FRANK FARRY 13 HONORABLE MARK M. GILLEN HONORABLE KEITH J. GREINER 14 HONORABLE LEE R. JAMES HONORABLE BARRY J. JOZWIAK 15 HONORABLE ZACHARY A. MAKO HONORABLE JIM MARSHALL 16 HONORABLE KATHY L. RAPP HONORABLE FRANCIS XAVIER RYAN 17 HONORABLE WILL TALLMAN HONORABLE CHRIS SAINATO, MINORITY CHAIRMAN 18 HONORABLE RYAN A. BIZZARRO HONORABLE FRANK BURNS 19 HONORABLE DOM COSTA HONORABLE MARIA P. DONATUCCI 20 HONORABLE KEVIN HAGGERTY HONORABLE CAROL HILL-EVANS 21 HONORABLE BILL KORTZ HONORABLE ANITA ASTORINO KULIK 22 HONORABLE ADAM J. RAVENSTAHL HONORABLE PETER SCHWEYER 23
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1 TRANSPORTATION COMMITTEE
2 HONORABLE LYNDA SCHLEGEL CULVER, MAJORITY CHAIRMAN HONORABLE KATE HARPER 3 HONORABLE DOYLE HEFFLEY HONORABLE JOHN LAWRENCE 4 HONORABLE WILLIAM KELLER, MINORITY CHAIRMAN HONORABLE WILLIAM KORTZ 5 HONORABLE ED NEILSON HONORABLE MICHAEL SCHLOSSBERG 6
7 COMMITTEE STAFF PRESENT: 8 ERIC BUGAILE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, MAJORITY HOUSE TRANSPORTATION 9 COMMITTEE
10 BETH SICKLER RESEARCH ANALYST, MAJORITY HOUSE TRANSPORTATION 11 COMMITTEE
12 NANCY COLE ADMINISTRATIVE ASSISTANT, MAJORITY HOUSE 13 TRANSPORTATION COMMITTEE
14 GREGORY MORELAND RESEARCH ANALYST 15 MEREDITH BIGGICA 16 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, MINORITY HOUSE TRANSPORTATION COMMITTEE 17 KYLE WAGONSELLER 18 RESEARCH ANALYST, HOUSE
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1 I N D E X 2 OPENING REMARKS 3 By Chairman Barrar 4 - 7 By Chairman Sainato 7 4 By Chairman Keller 7 - 8 By Chairman Culver 8 - 9 5 PRESENTATION 6 By Ms. Debbie Abel Mr. John Abel 7 Mr. Ronald Bressler 10 - 15
8 QUESTIONS 15 - 46
9 PRESENTATION By Mr. Bob Pento 10 Mr. Matt Hedge 47 - 52
11 QUESTIONS 52 - 88
12 PRESENTATION By Amanda Henry 13 Ken Lenhart Mike Hippensteel 14 Jeff Walter 88 - 91
15 QUESTIONS 91 - 105
16 PRESENTATION By Lieutenant Brian Ianuzzi 105 - 109 17 QUESTIONS 109 - 116 18 CONCLUDING REMARKS 19 By Chairman Barrar 116 - 117
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 ------
3 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: First I'd like to ask everyone if
4 had put out some extra packets of testimony. Sean, where are
5 those extra packets at? Okay. We have extras right here. Can
6 we put these out so people can access them? Everyone get their
7 packet.
8 Okay. Good morning, everyone. I would like to ask
9 Subcommittee Chair Lynda Culver if she would lead us in the
10 Pledge of Allegiance.
11 PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE RECITED
12 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Okay.
13 Good morning. I want to thank you all for
14 participating today and, you know, getting up here today. It's
15 an important meeting.
16 And a big thank you to the Fire Commissioner Solobay
17 and his staff for hosting us today.
18 My name is Steve Barrar. I am the Majority Chairman
19 of the Veterans Affairs & Emergency Preparedness Committee.
20 And I would like at this time to ask the Chairmen here to
21 introduce themselves.
22 CHAIRMAN SAINATO: Good morning. I'm Representative
23 Chris Sainato. I'm the Democratic Chair of the House Budget
24 Affairs & Emergency Preparedness Committee.
25 CHAIRMAN KELLER: Good morning. My name is Bill
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1 Keller. I represent the 184th District in South Philadelphia.
2 I'm the Democratic Chair of the Transportation Committee.
3 CHAIRMAN CULVER: Good morning. Lynda Schlegel
4 Culver, Subcommittee Chair on Highways for the Transportation
5 Committee.
6 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: And I would ask the members and
7 the staff also then to introduce themselves, starting with
8 Sean.
9 MR. HARRIS: Sean Harris, Research Analyst with the
10 Committee.
11 REPRESENTATIVE FARRY: Frank Farry, Representative,
12 Bucks County.
13 REPRESENTATIVE MAKO: Zack Mako, Lehigh and
14 Northampton County.
15 REPRESENTATIVE COSTA: Dom Costa, Allegheny County.
16 REPRESENTATIVE DAY: Gary Day, Lehigh and Berks
17 County.
18 REPRESENTATIVE LAWRENCE: John Lawrence, Chester and
19 Lancaster County.
20 REPRESENTATIVE RYAN: Frank Ryan, Lebanon County.
21 REPRESENTATIVE TALLMAN: Will Tallman, Adams and
22 Cumberland.
23 REPRESENTATIVE HARPER: Kate Harper, Montgomery
24 County.
25 MS. MEREDITH BIGGICA: Executive Director, Minority
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 6
1 House Transportation Committee.
2 MR. MORELAND: Greg Moreland, Research Analyst,
3 Transportation Committee, office of Chairman John Taylor.
4 MR. O'LEARY: Rick O'Leary, Executive Director for
5 Chairman Barrar.
6 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: Good morning, everyone.
7 Representative Bill Kortz from Allegheny County, 38th District.
8 REPRESENTATIVE BARBIN: Representative Bryan Barbin
9 representing Cambria and Somerset, the City of Johnstown.
10 REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: Barry Jozwiak, 5th
11 District, Berks County.
12 REPRESENTATIVE HILL-EVANS: Carol Hill-Evans, Berks
13 County.
14 REPRESENTATIVE SACCONE: Rick Saccone, Southern
15 Allegheny and northern Washington County.
16 MS. BRINTON: Amy Brinton, Executive Director for
17 Chairman Sainato.
18 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Great. Thank you. Anyone else
19 that we missed? Okay. Thank you.
20 Today's public hearing we will be looking at
21 emergency towing in general while focusing on two proposals
22 before the legislature.
23 The purpose of this public hearing is to receive
24 input and information regarding the use of emergency towing
25 lights, House Bill 1414, and Safety Requirements for Heavy-Duty
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1 Tow Trucks, HB1678. It's important to keep Pennsylvania's
2 highways safe and accessible. When accidents occur it's
3 essential to have a safe and efficient cleanup process. Tow
4 trucks are an important --- important element to the process,
5 including heavy-duty tow trucks.
6 As noted above, the focal point of the hearing is to
7 allow for the committee to receive testimony regarding the
8 issues and concerns that have been expressed pertaining to
9 emergency towing, towing lights and safety requirements for
10 heavy-duty tow trucks.
11 Before we begin receiving testimony, I would like to
12 ask our Subcommittee Chairman Culver and Chairman Sainato and
13 also Bill Keller --- Chairman Keller to make some comments.
14 Okay. Chairman Sainato?
15 CHAIRMAN SAINATO: Thank you, Chairman Barrar, for
16 allowing me to be here today. Thank you, Commissioner Solobay
17 for hosting us.
18 As Chairman Barrar said, these are some very
19 important issues I think that both committees, Transportation
20 and Emergency Preparedness, really need to find out. And
21 there's two very important legislations that's been introduced.
22 And I look forward to hearing the testimony today so we can
23 come up with something that will help the residents of
24 Pennsylvania. Thank you.
25 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Chairman Keller?
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1 CHAIRMAN KELLER: Thank you, Chairman Barrar. I
2 want to thank you for your leadership in bringing this public
3 hearing together. It's the --- what we're supposed to do in
4 the legislature to get input on bills that are pending. I'm
5 excited to hear the testimony. And from the turnout I think
6 it's going to be a good hearing. Thank you.
7 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Thank you.
8 CHAIRMAN CULVER: I want to thank Chairman Barrar,
9 members, testifiers and guests for joining us all here today
10 and for the Office of Fire Commissioner for hosting us.
11 The towing issue, as well as emergency signals for
12 tow trucks, has been around for a long time and there's been a
13 lot of discussion on it. I have a district with a lot of major
14 traffic routes through it, and towing for many different
15 reasons is always kind of the topic for conversation, whether
16 we're talking the State Police and the consumers of the
17 services.
18 So this is a great time for us to set out these
19 issues. So we're looking forward to hearing from the
20 stakeholders today. And just remember that I think safety on
21 our highways is paramount and I look forward to the discussion
22 on these bills today. And hopefully going back, everybody into
23 this district --- I don't know if anybody realizes how varied
24 and across the state all these members are today and all the
25 committees we all sit on.
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1 So you have a great panel listening to you today and
2 taking back your testimony into the district is going to be
3 helpful as we go forward with these bills, so I thank everybody
4 for being here.
5 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Great. Thank you.
6 Also, that has just joined us is Representative Lee
7 James. What county, Erie?
8 REPRESENTATIVE JAMES: Venango.
9 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Venango, okay. Great.
10 REPRESENTATIVE JAMES: It's too far away.
11 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: That's what happened. That's why
12 you're late.
13 REPRESENTATIVE JAMES: It's like an eight-hour
14 drive.
15 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Hopefully, you didn't take the
16 train.
17 At this time I would like to call Mr. Ron Bressler,
18 President of the Pennsylvania Towing Association. Ron, if you
19 want to come up and bring your crew with you.
20 Thank you. It's a pleasure to have you here.
21 MR. BRESSLER: Sure.
22 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Have a seat and begin your
23 testimony when you're ready. But I would ask your --- have
24 your other colleagues introduce themselves.
25 MR. BRESSLER: Go ahead, Debbie.
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1 MS. ABEL: Good morning, everyone. Is this on?
2 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Can you hear?
3 MS. ABEL: Hello?
4 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: There you go.
5 MS. ABEL: Good morning, everyone. First of all,
6 I'd like to thank State Representative Barrar and the entire
7 committee for holding this hearing this morning on such an
8 important issue for our industry. We really appreciate it. We
9 think it's an ongoing discussion that needs to be held, but we
10 think that this bill is making tremendous progress. And so we
11 appreciate your efforts and your concerns.
12 I guess I should introduce myself. I'm Debbie Abel.
13 I'm the Vice Chair of the Pennsylvania State Towing
14 Association. And I have brought John Abel, who is a
15 stakeholder in the heavy towing industry, who happens to also
16 be my husband and also a Director on the Board of the PTA, and
17 also Mr. Ron Bressler, who is the President.
18 So if you would like to know a little bit about how
19 this bill affects our industry, I'll leave it to the two
20 professionals to explain it.
21 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Let me, just real quick, announce
22 to the members --- I know a lot of members are fumbling through
23 their papers. We did not get any written testimony from the
24 Pennsylvania Towing Association, and so you don't need to look
25 for it. But I know Ron wanted to go pretty much off the cuff
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1 when he talked to us about the importance of this issue.
2 So you can begin when you're ready.
3 MR. BRESSLER: Okay.
4 Am I working?
5 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Yeah. There you go.
6 MR. BRESSLER: Okay.
7 I'm usually --- my wife always tells me to be quiet.
8 So you guys can hear me, that's good.
9 As Debbie introduced me, I'm Ron Bressler, President
10 of the Pennsylvania Towing Association. Also, I've been a
11 heavy-duty tower for over 30 years myself. I own a towing
12 company, do this.
13 We face several challenges that neighboring states
14 seem to have been able to figure out. And we're hopeful to
15 work with the other stakeholders on this to try to figure out.
16 We --- as the towing industry, we tend to get lumped in the
17 same category with trucking a lot of times. And we are so much
18 different than trucking. We are the --- you know, for
19 instance, if a tow truck gets stopped and reprimanded for being
20 overweight, they use the same type scale that they use to weigh
21 a tractor-trailer who is carrying cargo. Unfortunately, all of
22 our cargo happens 8 to 10 to 12 feet behind the truck, because
23 we have to be able to reach it. So that whole scale in itself
24 is a failed system. So that's why we live in some of these ---
25 we have some of the exemptions we currently have. That's why
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1 we've spent time talking to --- my Heavy-Duty Committee has
2 spent time talking to Representative Barrar about some of the
3 challenges we face just trying to do our job.
4 One of the problems that we have in the towing
5 industry is we don't set out any day to do our job. We are in
6 the business of solving problems. We have not --- we have not
7 planned any of what goes on, but we're trying to restore
8 commerce to the highways in Pennsylvania. And you know, if
9 that means that a --- that a permitted load was going down a
10 road and at that moment the engine failed, we certainly can't
11 leave it sitting there, obstructing the highway. So we are
12 tasked with trying to figure out how to solve this problem for
13 the State of Pennsylvania.
14 Unfortunately, we bear the burden of trying to do
15 this along the same lines of someone who has had the
16 opportunity to try to schedule their load, load it properly and
17 make it make sense within the laws. We basically --- you know,
18 I use this phrase all the time. With a tow truck and a loaded
19 --- you know, especially if it's an indivisible load, loaded
20 tow truck and --- I always use --- I always use the analogy
21 that it's two fat kids on a seesaw. And that's what it is. It
22 takes a lot of weight to manage weight.
23 With our current law structures, the heavier the
24 truck we're towing to try to maintain --- to try to get with
25 the laws that are in place today, we have to bring a lighter
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1 truck. If we bring a lighter truck, that does nothing but
2 deter public safety because we know the safest way to manage
3 weight is with weight.
4 So I hope to be able to answer any questions anybody
5 has. Other than that, you know, as things unfold today, I'm
6 willing to have any discussion with anybody.
7 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: So can you --- can you expand a
8 little bit on what the exact problem is? Is it just the
9 length? Is it the weight? Is it where you drop off a truck at
10 that point in time? That's what we need to know.
11 MR. BRESSLER: It is. The provision in the law is
12 for emergency clearance that if we are authorized --- if we are
13 told --- as current 4949 stands now, if we are ordered or
14 directed by an officer of the State or a State-authorized
15 person, it doesn't say an officer of the State, we can then
16 make the first move to the nearest safe place or place of
17 repairs.
18 Safe place, though, is a gray area because the
19 nearest safe place, first of all, is private property. And I
20 don't have the right to drop a tractor-trailer on someone's
21 private property, you know, at a veterinarian clinic or
22 something like that. I can't ruin someone's parking lot.
23 These are heavy vehicles. So we --- we --- you know, the
24 interpretation may be that's the safe area to do that. It's
25 not my property. I don't have the authority to do that.
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1 One of the other problems that comes into play is
2 --- and the bill addresses that, too, is the towing of
3 tractor-trailers. The towing of tractor-trailers can be done
4 safely behind a heavy-duty tow truck because you operate all
5 the brakes and everything there.
6 The act of splitting a tractor-tractor, dis --- you
7 know, discoupling the trailer from the tractor, is inherently
8 --- has been built to be done in a private parking lot
9 somewhere, has never been designed to be doing roadside because
10 it's the only function in towing that we have to do standing in
11 the --- in the travel lane of the highway.
12 If any of you guys can envision the Schuylkill
13 Expressway or Route 78 or some of that, you know, the tow truck
14 guys get killed at a rate faster --- you know, our mortality
15 rate in the towing industry is right there with firemen and
16 police. You just don't hear about it as much. But that ---
17 the art --- or the act of splitting that truck has to be done
18 standing in the lane. There are no passenger-side controls as
19 there are in towing. So it is one of the most dangerous
20 maneuvers. I've done it many, many times myself. It is
21 extremely dangerous. It's much better if you can tow that
22 combination unit and it's safe if you can tow that combination
23 unit to a safe place to be able to split it. But under our
24 current law, that safe place, again, could be private property,
25 and I don't have the authority to do that.
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1 Once you have pulled that to a safe harbor along the
2 road, be that a wide area or whatever, the problem is, once
3 we've been engaged, whether the police have called us or
4 whatever, once we've been engaged in clearing the highway, we
5 have the liability and the responsibility of that vehicle until
6 it's in a safe place. So the question comes, if I take a ---
7 if I take a disabled heavy truck and park it alongside the
8 roadway because that's the closest safe place that the law
9 permits me to do that and I leave it there --- because
10 certainly we haven't cleared the highway, we've just moved it
11 into another location, and you know, someone's daughter plows
12 into the back of that, you know, I'm the one that left it
13 there. I bear the responsibility of leaving it there. I
14 should be the one to help with the decision making of where is
15 the safe place. And place of repairs make much more sense to
16 me.
17 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: A little bit about the history
18 that brought you to me. I know you and I talked about some of
19 the fines that you've received in the past and the court
20 battles you've been involved in.
21 MR. BRESSLER: Towers --- towers receive fines quite
22 often. I personally have had some pretty good ones. I know a
23 lot of guys --- I get a lot of phone calls from a lot of guys
24 that have. And that's not all law enforcement, but it can be.
25 And to an extent we are kind of a moving target because we're
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1 in a local area and that's where we conduct our business. So
2 yeah, I've had fines of $30,000 being --- being called out of
3 bed to go move --- go move a tractor-trailer for one police
4 department and going to try to split it on private property and
5 being refused by the property owner who said you can't drop
6 that trailer here, and moving on to the next place, which would
7 be my shop, which is my property and I do have the --- and we
8 got popped. And again, using that formula of all the weight
9 being on my truck. But it actually wasn't. It was all behind
10 my truck, but you know ---.
11 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: You took that all the way to what,
12 Common Pleas --- just county court.
13 Right?
14 MR. BRESSLER: I did.
15 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Did it go higher ---
16 MR. BRESSLER: No.
17 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: --- did you appeal that higher?
18 MR. BRESSLER: No.
19 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Okay. Great.
20 The other Chairmen, any questions?
21 CHAIRMAN KELLER: Again, I'm ignorant of all this
22 stuff. Explain to me how it's safer to tow a tractor-trailer
23 in one unit. I guess I would call them pivot points. You have
24 the tow truck, the tractor and then the fifth wheel and then
25 the trailer. Isn't that two?
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1 MR. BRESSLER: It is. It's almost no different than
2 a --- than a set of double trailers is. When you hook that to
3 the back of the tow truck, I mean you just created another
4 hinge point. But we --- doubles have been and triples in a lot
5 of areas have been in play for a long time.
6 So when you --- when you hook up to the front of a
7 tractor trailer and you run your air lines properly, you are
8 running --- you're running the brakes on the trailer completely
9 with the brakes of the tow truck. If you use a brake pedal
10 you're using every brake on the unit completely. Every time
11 you hit your brake pedal, all that happens, so --- and
12 virtually when you lift up the front of a tractor-trailer,
13 you're not picking much weight. You could actually scale
14 legally doing that because the front of the tractor doesn't
15 weigh much.
16 CHAIRMAN KELLER: But the pivot points aren't a
17 problem ---?
18 MR. BRESSLER: No, not a --- no.
19 CHAIRMAN KELLER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
20 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Do you want to jump in?
21 MR. ABEL: I was just going to say with the pivot
22 points ---.
23 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Can you pull that closer?
24 MR. ABEL: With the pivot points, if you --- you got
25 to imagine a tractor-trailer is not going to be on a back road
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1 like your back housing developments. Most likely, it's going
2 to be on a major highway or something. So the problem is, is
3 we go out and we pick the truck up on a major highway and we go
4 down to, you know, either the next exit or back to our
5 location, wherever we have to go and then we get popped because
6 we did pull off someplace. And it's not that we're --- it's
7 not --- in my opinion, it's not every cop that's doing it.
8 It's just certain cops that are doing it. That's the problem,
9 I think. You know what I mean?
10 And I don't know if that's hurting us or helping us,
11 but it's just --- it's a law. Some cops can enforce it. Some
12 cops don't enforce it, you know. So I just think --- and if
13 you're doing it --- like Ronnie explained with the brakes, you
14 got to obviously take wider corners. You're not going to put
15 some --- you know, somebody that's not experienced in a truck
16 like that.
17 CHAIRMAN KELLER: So the fines come from not from
18 being overweight but bypassing an exit that they thought you
19 should have gotten off on?
20 MR. ABEL: Well, I believe it's coming because of
21 the combination of law, which is what we have to get rid of,
22 the towing of the tractor-trailers.
23 Like Ronnie explained earlier, all the surrounding
24 states allow you to tow a tractor-trailer. I've been in ---
25 I've had tractor trailers in the lower --- in the lower part of
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1 Maryland and I've actually sent one of my tow trucks to go down
2 to Maryland to tow that truck all the way to the Maryland line
3 and had another tractor meet them at the Maryland line, because
4 in Maryland it's legal to tow a tractor and trailer, but in
5 Pennsylvania it's now. So instead of sending two trucks, I
6 have to tow that and have another truck them meet them at the
7 Pennsylvania line and then split it because I don't want to
8 take --- I don't want a $30,000 fine.
9 MR. BRESSLER: Part of the issue isn't --- isn't the
10 fact that we can tow a tractor-trailer. We can tow a
11 tractor-trailer now if someone from the State tells us to. We
12 can do it. We do it all the time. If the officer tells us to,
13 we can. And so what --- what we're trying to do is understand
14 that we are the towing professionals. We've got a lot of years
15 at this. We have the training. We have all that. It's hard
16 for me to understand some days how --- for instance, and as
17 that's defined, a game warden could better know whether I could
18 tow a tractor-trailer or myself.
19 CHAIRMAN KELLER: So you're saying it's arbitrary,
20 it's up to the individual ---?
21 MR. BRESSLER: It is. It absolutely is.
22 CHAIRMAN KELLER: Thank you.
23 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Lynda, did you have a question?
24 CHAIRMAN CULVER: I'm good right now.
25 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Okay.
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1 Chairman Sainato? Okay.
2 Representative Jozwiak?
3 Oh, while he's getting ready, we've been joined by
4 Representative Ed Neilson from Philadelphia.
5 REPRESENTATIVE NEILSON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
6 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Thanks for driving up here.
7 REPRESENTATIVE NEILSON: Thanks for having us.
8 REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: Hi, Ron, good morning, and
9 Mr. and Mrs. Abel. Thank you for your testimony. I just have
10 a couple questions.
11 When you --- right now, when you're ordered to tow a
12 truck and tractor-trailer, you're authorized to do it in
13 Pennsylvania, is that correct, to do them now? So how far do
14 you normally go?
15 MR. BRESSLER: Usually to the best spot to break it
16 down that you know that you can do it. And then that varies
17 depending on the region you're in.
18 REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: What's the average mileage?
19 MR. BRESSLER: That's really tough to do. You know,
20 probably in the Philadelphia area guys are going two, three,
21 four miles before they get to a good spot. Or generally
22 speaking, they're going --- sometimes they're going to a repair
23 facility or back to their shop.
24 REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: Okay.
25 Under the current law, though, you got to pull up at
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1 the nearest safest place?
2 MR. BRESSLER: Correct.
3 REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: Whether it be a wide spot
4 on the road where you can disable the vehicle or disconnect it
5 or go to some off --- off a ramp, like a trucking facility. So
6 two, three, four miles is not a --- I have no problem with
7 that.
8 So when you pick up a tractor-trailer that's been in
9 an accident and you lift up the truck tractor, you know, you
10 have to take ten pins in the trailer down to the --- what does
11 that do, the stress on that? That's not built for taking that
12 truck up like that when you travel long distances.
13 MR. BRESSLER: That pretty much is because a
14 fifth-wheel plate has a great variation in how it --- how it
15 moves. You know, that's how trucks can go up dips and down
16 over and do all that. So it --- the angle that we pick it.
17 And when you lift up the front of a tractor-trailer behind the
18 tow truck and lift it --- I mean, you can --- you can do it as
19 far as --- you know, rule of thumb that we teach our guys is
20 usually about the top of your ankle. So you don't have to be
21 very high off the ground. It's not --- it's not like you're
22 lifting it two foot.
23 REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: So when you have a vehicle
24 that's in an accident, is it safe to say that you don't know
25 the integrity of that vehicle, how good it is, taking it long
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 22
1 distances? Would you agree it's more important to get it off
2 the road to a place of safe haven and stopped so you can
3 determine the condition of the vehicle?
4 MR. BRESSLER: That is correct. That is correct.
5 And we have --- in an accident condition we have the provision
6 when authorized by someone by the State to get it --- to make
7 the first move.
8 REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: You say it's legal in
9 Maryland? I'm under the --- to tow a tractor-trailer? I'm
10 under the impression it's not legal in New York in New Jersey.
11 Is that correct?
12 MR. BRESSLER: No. It is legal in New Jersey. New
13 Jersey, it's --- I --- it's either 75 or 150 miles. I get
14 those numbers mixed up, but the tower has a medallion and a
15 proof of insurance and all that to make it that he can do so.
16 REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: You mentioned that you were
17 arrested for an overweight vehicle. How were you weighed
18 particularly?
19 MR. BRESSLER: We were weighed on portable scales.
20 The tow truck itself was weighed on portable scales. Well,
21 everything was weighed and everything behind the tow truck was
22 considered cargo.
23 REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: So they place a portable
24 scale under your wheel to do that?
25 MR. BRESSLER: Correct.
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 23
1 REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: I was just thinking about
2 this. If you had a vehicle in an accident that's loaded ---
3 half the load was spilled out or ---
4 MR. BRESSLER: Right.
5 REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: --- how do you weigh that?
6 MR. BRESSLER: Yeah.
7 MR. ABEL: It's a project.
8 MR. BRESSLER: It is.
9 REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: That has to definitely be
10 the place of safety.
11 MR. BRESSLER: Yeah.
12 REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: But currently in
13 Pennsylvania you are authorized to get these vehicles right off
14 the road immediately to open the road?
15 MR. BRESSLER: Yes. When --- when told to, yes.
16 REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: The question that was ---
17 the 75 miles, I'm assuming you're talking about HB 1678, which
18 is the distance ---
19 MR. BRESSLER: Right.
20 REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: --- you can go is now 75
21 miles. Why would you want to go 75 miles?
22 MR. BRESSLER: The thinking behind that was
23 mirroring the other states.
24 REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: Well, you said your normal
25 distance you traveled was two, three, four miles. The only
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 24
1 reason I can think of to go 75 miles, maybe you want to go to a
2 trucking company ---.
3 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: That was --- that was actually a
4 compromise that if Sean had a meeting with Senate staff and
5 some of the other staff with PennDOT and looking at --- that
6 was I think the compromise language.
7 I think when we originally wrote the bill that you
8 and I had discussed, it had no limitations as far as mileage
9 goes. That was something we put in after --- after a
10 discussion with the State Police, with PennDOT, and the Senate
11 staff trying to gain support for this, for the legislation. So
12 that's where the 75 miles comes from.
13 MR. BRESSLER: That's correct. And to mirror other
14 states.
15 REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: I assumed the law ---.
16 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: I think in the southeast that
17 would be correct, I think, but if you go get it --- I mean, you
18 know, if you get into some parts of Pennsylvania, 75 miles ---.
19 MR. BRESSLER: From Somerset to Carlisle, you know,
20 it's not ---.
21 REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: You have other exits and
22 other places ---.
23 MR. ABEL: If I could say something, though.
24 REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: Sure.
25 MR. ABEL: Most trucking companies aren't delivering
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 25
1 two miles within their radius. Most rucking companies are
2 going 100, 200-mile radius. And I have a lot of trucking
3 companies that we do also towing for. So sometimes their
4 tractor-trailer breaks down 100 miles away, you know, or it
5 could be 50 mils away. So it's whatever --- whatever the
6 distance is, it would be nice to at least be able to go up,
7 pick the thing up.
8 I'm not --- I don't want to --- I'm not looking to
9 go through any tows or something. I'm saying if it's right off
10 the turnpike, because most of the trucking companies, they go
11 up, they get off the turnpike and they go to a destination. If
12 you can get right back on the turnpike and head back --- and
13 you're right back to your destination, you know ---.
14 MS. ABEL: Any major route.
15 MR. ABEL: You know, any major route. You know,
16 that's basically what --- and like I said, two miles is ---
17 that's if you're in the city, if you're in a city or, you know,
18 a local tower or something like that, but ---.
19 REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: But to be on 78, every exit
20 there's a trucking facility. It's not that you have to ---.
21 MR. ABEL: Yeah. But that trucking facility --- if
22 we pull in there with a loaded --- if we pull in there with a
23 loaded tanker or a hazmat or something, there's no way they're
24 going to let us drop that off there. There's no way. Not a
25 chance. I mean, that's obviously extraordinary, but it's
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 26
1 just ---.
2 MR. BRESSLER: It was --- it was pretty much a
3 catch-all because, tractor-trailer --- I mean, it's easy to sit
4 here and envision a tractor and a dry van trailer, but there
5 are so many combinations. Like for instance, a car carrier
6 with a stinger that is not a conventional fifth wheel, the
7 fifth wheel is about five inches off the ground and extends
8 behind. So that is a tractor-trailer, too. Virtually breaking
9 down a loaded car carrier is a nightmare for a towing company
10 to do, it really is, because the way you have to move that
11 trailer then without --- without --- we've all seen what car
12 carriers look like.
13 Same thing sometimes --- some of the various horse
14 configurations that --- you know, carnival rides, gasoline
15 tankers. Some of the gasoline tankers don't even have legs.
16 You can't break them down. And it's unsafe as could ever be
17 because the legs would penetrate up through --- you know,
18 they're made to carry 6,000 gallons of gas, but they're
19 certainly not made to ever be doing that without the stability
20 of the tractor under them.
21 You know, when you're towing a tractor-trailer like
22 that, you have the eight tires of the tractor under the front
23 of that trailer, too, which makes it much more stable than two
24 rods that could pierce it.
25 REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: The other question I had
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 27
1 was are you moving any vehicles that are put out of service by
2 the police at the convenience of the company --- out of service
3 for safety feature or maybe a driver driving too long?
4 MR. BRESSLER: We are, yes.
5 REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: That's not an emergency
6 situation. That's just a convenience. Under the law you can
7 do that for emergencies, you can move --- if they're put out of
8 service --- if they're already off by the State Police.
9 MR. BRESSLER: Well, they are, but I guess you just
10 can't leave them there indefinitely. When they get put out of
11 service and they're put in lots at these checks and stuff, they
12 need to get them back to garages to be repaired. And not
13 everything can be done roadside.
14 You know, that becomes a real quagmire for us, too,
15 because we have then --- we have then attached ourself to
16 someone else's problem.
17 REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: I understand that, but that
18 vehicle can be taken apart and can be disconnected. And
19 whether it's a tanker or whatever, all those are disconnected
20 at some point, whether they do it at their terminals or
21 facilities or in a repair shop. So it's not impossible to do
22 that.
23 MR. BRESSLER: Yeah. And a tractor-trailer for
24 sure. But I was thinking more in terms of an 80,000-pound
25 straight truck that's a non-divisible thing.
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 28
1 REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: As far as moving vehicles
2 for emergency purposes, to get off the road and clear it, go to
3 a place of safety, that's necessary. To move it at the
4 convenience of a company because it's been put out of service,
5 I don't --- sorry, I have to disagree with that.
6 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
7 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Thank you.
8 We've been joined by Representative Doyle Heffley.
9 And our next questioner is Representative Harper.
10 REPRESENTATIVE HARPER: It seems in looking at
11 Chairman Barrar's bill that you do need a special weight
12 limitation for tow trucks so that you can do your job, which
13 you're going to have variable weights and things like that.
14 I'm also curious about the 75 miles. I can see
15 where it would be a bad thing for you guys to be able to figure
16 out whether the safest place is here or there or whatever, so
17 you want to --- you want some definable bright line that you
18 can, yes, I'm within 75 miles. But 75 miles seems as if it's
19 more than what you would need to get to a safe place, not
20 private property but someplace. So is there some reason you
21 can explain why you need 75 miles? Why isn't it 50 miles or 25
22 miles or as long as it's a bright line that you know from the
23 point of visibility, which is where you pick it up?
24 MR. BRESSLER: Again, they wrote that to mirror the
25 neighboring states. You know, 75 miles isn't a number that I
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 29
1 picked. And I certainly think that's open to more discussion
2 with stakeholders to what makes sense. Again, that was ---
3 that was written based on neighboring states' laws. So I ---
4 that's not my number.
5 REPRESENTATIVE HARPER: Okay. Thanks.
6 Did you have ---?
7 MR. ABEL: I just --- like I said, I just --- the
8 same thing I said earlier about the tractor-trailers, when
9 they're delivering stuff. Just sometimes they're out of the
10 area and it just sometimes it runs into that. It's not that
11 we're asking to do it all the time. We just would be able to
12 do it if we're --- if we're able to do it, you know.
13 REPRESENTATIVE HARPER: Great. My perspective on it
14 is that I want you to get to a safe place, you know, to do what
15 you need to do. And that may be miles away from wherever it is
16 that stuff breaks down. But I don't know that we want to
17 encourage the business of hauling these things for long, long
18 distances. So I don't know what would be the right mileage
19 myself.
20 MR. ABEL: I agree with you. We don't want to
21 encourage that either.
22 REPRESENTATIVE HARPER: Thanks.
23 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Thank you, Representative.
24 Representative Barbin for questions?
25 REPRESENTATIVE BARBIN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 30
1 The question I have is the concern of the Department of
2 Transportation, that under the bill you wouldn't be subject to
3 weight restrictions if the original permitted path would have
4 been allowed.
5 So let's say --- I was out west and I was looking at
6 the trucks that are now connected by I-beams almost. They
7 sometimes come up to like three --- you know, you could have a
8 truck and two carried behind trailers of coal or whatever.
9 What you're telling us in your testimony is that it's safer to
10 keep that thing together the way it is until you can get it off
11 the road. And what I'm worried about is there's this crack
12 between safe area and 75 miles. Is there any --- is there any
13 problem that other states have had with the actual weight on
14 the permitted route that makes us --- makes the way we're doing
15 it not make sense?
16 I guess my question is you got an 80,000-pound tow
17 truck and you got 80,000 pounds in a combination of trucks
18 behind. Is there anything that's happened in any of the other
19 states to say that's more damaging to the permitted route than
20 it would be if the truck that you're pulling just never broke
21 down? Because you're spreading out the weight.
22 The part --- the idea is if you have a truck on a
23 road, it's going to do more damage than a car. Exponentially,
24 it's the weight. If you've got a tractor that's in the front
25 and then you got all of these things behind it that you're
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 31
1 pulling, has any other state said that this is more damaging
2 when a tractor hooks up to the two or three other combinations
3 that they're hooking up? Because that seems to be their
4 objection. The objection is it's more dangerous. The bridge
5 restrictions --- more damage to the road, but the other states
6 are all doing it. So why are we not doing it? Why haven't we
7 said that, no, you're displacing the weight? This isn't any
8 different than driving the truck if it hadn't broken down.
9 That's my question.
10 MR. BRESSLER: That's exactly what Maryland says
11 with their law. If the tow truck is registered for 80,000
12 pounds and it is legal as the tow truck and the cargo that it's
13 hauling is registered at whatever weight it is and everything
14 was legal before the breakdown, then the entire combination is
15 legal.
16 REPRESENTATIVE BARBIN: And isn't --- if that's true, then
17 isn't this just about getting the whole thing off of the main
18 road so that whoever's doing this is safe?
19 MR. BRESSLER: It is.
20 REPRESENTATIVE BARBIN: Okay. All right. I'm
21 satisfied.
22 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Thank you, Representative.
23 Representative Tallman?
24 REPRESENTATIVE TALLMAN: I'm just going to ask
25 questions without the microphone. So I have two. And the
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 32
1 reason why I ask this first question is because we just had
2 this call last evening, obstruction, disabled vehicle, and fire
3 police were dispatched. You say you're out there. Doesn't
4 that happen where you're at? I mean, we frequently get sent
5 out. Fire police from my company get sent out because there's
6 an obstruction. They're going to protect the scene until it's
7 removed. Does that not happen where you're from?
8 MR. BRESSLER: It happens where I'm from. That's
9 very regional, though. Northern end of Pennsylvania fire
10 police don't do that very often. Sometimes guys have to come
11 up with Flagger Force or something like that.
12 In the --- in the fire industry --- and I can't ---
13 I can't speak to the whole Fire Academy as a whole, but
14 volunteers are getting less and less and less all the time. So
15 the long-term --- you know, they do emergencies generally. Not
16 everything we do is an emergency. Sometimes it's just a broken
17 drive shaft on a tri-axle dump truck that's blocking, there
18 wasn't an accident --- so yeah, to answer your question, in my
19 area, yes, fire police are still available, but a lot of areas
20 throughout the state they are not.
21 REPRESENTATIVE TALLMAN: 1678 has a 150-foot limit.
22 I have no clue on this. Two trailers, a tractor and a tow
23 truck, what does --- what does that equal to? I'm not sure.
24 MR. BRESSLER: And I'm not --- I can't tell you
25 exactly what that equals because there's different combinations
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 33
1 that would be different. I can tell you the maximum that tow
2 truck can be in Pennsylvania is 40 feet.
3 REPRESENTATIVE TALLMAN: So the tow truck itself was
4 40 and then you got the tractor and then the double trailer.
5 MR. ABEL: Well, you got a trailer ---.
6 REPRESENTATIVE TALLMAN: I think we're over 150
7 feet. I think.
8 MR. ABEL: But the trailer's 53 feet, I think, long.
9 MR. BRESSLER: Well, there's usually 228 pups. We
10 don't --- Pennsylvania doesn't allow two full-length trailers.
11 They allow us pups, which I think are 28 feet. My numbers may
12 not be right there, but I think they're 28. And then you have
13 the tractor, which is generally on those a day cab, not a
14 sleeper, so --- again, we were mirroring other states.
15 REPRESENTATIVE TALLMAN: Thank you.
16 MR. ABEL: Can I say something, sir?
17 My question --- or my answer to one of your
18 questions, your first question, is fire police doesn't respond
19 to a breakdown car all the time. Somebody's car breaks down,
20 they're not always out there for a breakdown. They're only out
21 there for an accident or if the cops show up for a disabled,
22 sometimes, most of the time. So sometimes ---.
23 REPRESENTATIVE TALLMAN: If it's obstructing a
24 highway ---.
25 MR. ABEL: Oh, if it's obstructing, absolutely.
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 34
1 Maybe it's not obstructing. I'm just saying if it's --- if
2 it's off the shoulder of the road, it's not obstructing.
3 That's all I'm saying. So sometimes it's not necessarily, you
4 know --- I'm agreeing with you is what I'm saying. Thank you.
5 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Representative Tallman, any other
6 questions? Okay. Thank you.
7 Representative Day?
8 REPRESENTATIVE DAY: Two quick --- thank you, Mr.
9 Chairman. Thanks to all the Chairmen for having us here today.
10 PennDOT operates an automated system that tells them
11 the safest route. Do you guys use that at all? Are you
12 familiar with it? It's like AP --- A-P-R-A-S.
13 MR. BRESSLER: The only time we would ever use that
14 is if we were going out to pick up a permitted load that break
15 down.
16 REPRESENTATIVE DAY: Okay.
17 And did you bring --- were they part of bringing
18 this idea forward? Is that right, ---
19 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Yes.
20 REPRESENTATIVE DAY: --- Mr. Chairman?
21 And have you had a chance to meet with PennDOT and
22 talk with them about your issues at all? I was just curious if
23 you had that opportunity yet or if the Association has had the
24 opportunity to meet with PennDOT on these issues?
25 MR. BRESSLER: We haven't, but we sure hope to.
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 35
1 REPRESENTATIVE DAY: Okay.
2 Thank you for your answers. Thank you, Mr.
3 Chairman.
4 I'm interested in more questions with other
5 panelists about use of the red lights and also the 75-mile
6 distance. It's a very interesting topic. Thank you for your
7 time.
8 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Great. Thank you.
9 I know --- Sean, did you want to expand any? I know
10 you've sat in the stakeholder meetings between the Senate,
11 PennDOT, State Police and yourself.
12 MR. HARRIS: As it relates to the bill before us,
13 that was drafted based on, if I remember correctly, New Jersey
14 law because it was felt by the towers that that was the best
15 law around. And it was only to be a starting point. So that
16 75-mile, that's where that came from. And the towers were
17 going to negotiate. So it was only a starting point. But
18 they're trying to find some way to reach a compromise to be
19 able to tow combinations safely and to be placed out on a ---.
20 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Thank you.
21 Representative Kortz, question?
22 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
23 Thank you for your testimony this morning. Mr. Bressler, I
24 want to follow up on Representative Jozwiak. The number of
25 states surrounding us, do I understand correctly that they all
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 36
1 have laws except New York? Is New York the only exception?
2 MR. BRESSLER: I don't know what New York's law is.
3 I've really studied Maryland. I've really studied New Jersey
4 when we were putting this together, so I ---.
5 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: West Virginia?
6 MR. BRESSLER: West Virginia --- West Virginia ---
7 West Virginia I know, because I know the President of the
8 Towing Association there, they buy a permit to be a tow truck
9 and they have tons of exemptions. They can run --- I know ---
10 I know their tow trucks don't stop at 80,000 pounds in West
11 Virginia.
12 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: Okay.
13 MR. BRESSLER: I don't know what the law is, but I
14 know they buy an exemption.
15 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: The $30,000 fine, did you win
16 that?
17 MR. BRESSLER: I did not.
18 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: You did not. So you were
19 fined $30,000 and you had to pay that ---
20 MR. BRESSLER: It was ---
21 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: --- right now?
22 MR. BRESSLER: --- it was compromised after the
23 second hearing. The amount of the fine came down some. But
24 with attorney fees, we far exceeded $30,000.
25 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: The --- you mentioned that
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 37
1 the --- sorry, John, you had mentioned that it seems that
2 there's certain officers that pull over trucks. Have you ever
3 been given the opportunity or told to move a tractor-trailer by
4 one policeman, maybe a State Policeman, then you're down to the
5 local area and then the local policeman gives you a ticket?
6 Does that happen where you got the authorization from one
7 officer, but another officer pulled you over?
8 MR. BRESSLER: That's exactly what happened to me,
9 to my company. That's exactly what happened to us. We were
10 clearing the highway for a local department and were unable to
11 drop the trailer where we were told not.
12 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: That was the $30,000 fine,
13 the police said yes and the other one said sorry?
14 MR. BRESSLER: That is correct.
15 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: Oh, may. Okay.
16 So then the policeman that gave you the
17 authorization, was he able to testify for you?
18 MR. BRESSLER: Well ---.
19 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: I mean, that would have gave
20 you cover.
21 Right?
22 MR. BRESSLER: Yeah. He testified that he saw us at
23 the location where we wanted to drop --- he testified that he
24 saw us in the truck stop attempting to drop the trailer and
25 that we were asked to leave there. He testified to that. But
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 38
1 that doesn't --- that doesn't change the rules when we come
2 back on the highway again.
3 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: Okay.
4 MR. BRESSLER: He saw that and he testified to that,
5 yes.
6 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: Thank you. Thank you, Mr.
7 Chairman.
8 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Thank you. Representative
9 Neilson?
10 REPRESENTATIVE NEILSON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I
11 want to talk about the 75 miles. If there's an emergency on
12 the road they call and they move that no matter what.
13 Correct?
14 So they may not wait ---
15 MR. BRESSLER: Correct.
16 REPRESENTATIVE NEILSON: --- to know even if you
17 have a contract with that, they just move it?
18 MR. BRESSLER: That's correct.
19 REPRESENTATIVE NEILSON: How often is it that you
20 travel 75 miles to go tow a truck? I mean, what's your radius?
21 I mean, I would think it's business that you're not going to
22 drive 150 miles to grab a trailer, I mean, just in the business
23 world. I mean, that's just ---.
24 MR. BRESSLER: Well, in the business world of
25 trucking we do --- we do really long distance because --- I
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 39
1 can, again, only speak for my company, but many times it's a
2 food-grade load that has broken down somewhere and we will take
3 a repower unit out to that guy so that they can keep the load
4 moving. It would not be a situation where you would tow a
5 tractor-trailer 75 miles.
6 REPRESENTATIVE NEILSON: Thank you. I have nothing
7 further.
8 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Thank you. We've been joined by
9 Representative Frank Burns. We've had other hearings, but I
10 don't think in Harrisburg we would have got all these members.
11 That's fantastic.
12 Representative Heffley?
13 REPRESENTATIVE HEFFLEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
14 Just a quick follow-up to one of the earlier questions whether
15 you can tow a vehicle 10 miles or 75 miles. Is there anything
16 different in the safety standard that you would apply moving a
17 vehicle safely 10 miles to moving a vehicle safely 75 miles?
18 MR. BRESSLER: No.
19 REPRESENTATIVE HEFFLEY: So if you're moving it 10
20 miles, you're going to apply the same safety standards as you
21 would at 75 miles?
22 MR. BRESSLER: That's correct.
23 REPRESENTATIVE HEFFLEY: And anything ca happen in 1
24 mile, 10 miles or 75 miles. So from a safety standpoint,
25 you're doing the same thing, you're just going a little bit
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 40
1 farther.
2 MR. BRESSLER: That's correct.
3 REPRESENTATIVE HEFFLEY: Okay.
4 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Great. Thank you.
5 Representative Lawrence?
6 REPRESENTATIVE LAWRENCE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
7 Mr. Chairman, I appreciate your willingness and your tenacity
8 in tackling this issue which is a longstanding issue that needs
9 to addressed.
10 A tournament was going on. I was up last year and I
11 picked up a nail in my minivan right next to where --- in the
12 Lewistown Narrows going home. And I have never been in a
13 situation more terrifying than on the side of that road with my
14 wife and my two girls in our minivan.
15 That road --- I mean, I'm sure some of you remember
16 before it was wider than four lanes. But even then on the
17 shoulder there it is --- it is not generous. I had my wife and
18 my kids stand on the other side of the Jersey barrier, which I
19 would encourage none of you to ever do. It's a sharp drop-off
20 down into the water.
21 At any rate, the tow truck that came up to pick me
22 up --- thankfully, Representative Zimmerman happened to be
23 going home and picked up my wife and kids and took them out of
24 there.
25 These cars are driving by, it's clear that ---
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 41
1 what's going on. A flatbed truck is trying to pick up my
2 minivan and it's clear what's going on. These cars are going
3 by at 65 miles an hour and there is not an inch of forgiveness.
4 None of them are slowing down. There's no police officer on
5 the scene.
6 This tow truck driver put his life on the line. I
7 mean, it was really remarkable. I couldn't believe it. On the
8 way out, you know, we talked a little bit about some of the
9 challenging tows he's done out of the Narrows here.
10 My question to you is that you're telling me that
11 under state law today if a tractor-trailer breaks down on those
12 Narrows you can't roll it out --- what happens if you're called
13 and you say, you know what, I don't think I want to risk my
14 life tonight at 2:00 in the morning going out there, I think
15 I'd rather not do that? What happens the? What happens if you
16 don't respond to the call?
17 MR. BRESSLER: I can tell you after a $30,000 fine,
18 that's exactly what you think, left me sleep next time.
19 MR. ABEL: But what's going to happen, you know?
20 MR. BRESSLER: I mean, the roads are going to get
21 blocked, you know. We have to respond. You know what, we have
22 a servant's heart. If anybody's going into this business, they
23 have a servant's heart. So we're in business to try to serve
24 people and try to help people. That's the whole reason we went
25 in the towing business in the first place. So you know, we
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 42
1 don't --- we don't ever choose safety over --- over other
2 people, you know. And if you take your situation and you
3 compound it with snow and ice, I mean, that's what we do. It's
4 in the servant's heart, and that's what we do. We just try to
5 solve problems for other people, so --- you can refuse calls
6 and --- but somebody, ultimately, is going to be that tower
7 that's going to be standing there in that low speed lane trying
8 to do that.
9 MR. ABEL: But also the cops are going to call us.
10 The cops are going to show --- the police are going to show up
11 because this tractor-trailer's been sitting there for a long
12 time. Eventually they're going to say we need their on-call
13 tower to remove this tractor-trailer off the road. That's
14 what's going to happen. And then he's going to get caught in
15 the traffic because the first guy they called, he doesn't want
16 to risk his life. So that's what's going to happen, the cops
17 are going to show up. They're going to --- they may call for
18 traffic. They may --- they may or may not. We're going to
19 move it in order of the police.
20 REPRESENTATIVE LAWRENCE: And if the police call the
21 primary tower and the tower doesn't respond, would it be
22 outrageous i mean to think that after a few calls like that the
23 police say, you know, I'm just not going to call that tower
24 anymore, ---
25 MR. ABEL: Thank you.
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 43
1 REPRESENTATIVE LAWRENCE: --- and so I'm just going
2 to steer the business to somebody else. Am I out of line by
3 suggesting that?
4 MR. ABEL: You're a hundred percent right.
5 REPRESENTATIVE LAWRENCE: So what I --- what I see
6 in front of us here is deficiency of the law that is --- that
7 is --- you're asking third parties here to perform a vital
8 service for the Commonwealth, keeping traffic lanes open for
9 commerce, keeping traffic lanes open for transportation. We
10 depend upon these folks, but then we pass a law that makes it
11 impossible for them to execute their job. I think that's
12 egregious. And then we fine them $30,000 when they're doing
13 it. That's egregious.
14 I certainly understand that, you know, some of the
15 details need to be ironed out, the 75 miles or whatever the
16 case might be. I mean, if you're on the Schuylkill Expressway,
17 75 miles is a long way. If you're in Cameron County, 75 miles
18 is --- you know, you have to drive that far to get to the
19 grocery store.
20 So I would suggest that there needs to be some ---
21 there needs to be some allocations made here. But I again
22 commend the Chairman for his willingness to take on this
23 difficult issue. I think it is something that we do need to
24 address. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
25 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Thank you, Representative
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 44
1 Lawrence. I will tell you if you had bought your Dodge minivan
2 in Delaware County, it probably wouldn't have broken down.
3 They never break down.
4 REPRESENTATIVE LAWRENCE: It's actually a Mazda
5 minivan, but ---.
6 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Representative Saccone?
7 REPRESENTATIVE SACCONE: I apologize that I don't
8 know the details of your industry, but I'm curious about the
9 difference between a permitted load and a non-permitted load.
10 How many --- what's percentage of your loads that you're towing
11 are permitted versus non-permitted? What does that mean?
12 MR. BRESSLER: Well, very few. Under permitted load
13 would be like someone transporting a super-loader like these
14 used concrete beams or oversized loads or something. If they
15 get in a breakdown situation, that would be when we would have
16 to tow a permitted load. That doesn't happen --- it happens
17 very infrequently.
18 REPRESENTATIVE SACCONE: Okay.
19 Because this bill, when it pertains to permitted
20 load, says you have to --- you could tow to a safe place, but
21 it would have to be on the permitted route. And is there
22 always a good, safe place along that route?
23 MR. BRESSLER: One would --- one would certainly
24 hope so. But not necessarily because, again, that was --- that
25 permit was written with the intent of that truck never breaking
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 45
1 down. So it would --- you know, when you're following a
2 permit, when you're following a permitted route, a lot of times
3 you can't get off an exit. It --- it absolutely prohibits you
4 from getting off. And clearly, when the truck breaks, you
5 know, it's a whole new game at that moment.
6 REPRESENTATIVE SACCONE: So my point is --- but my
7 point is we may need to modify that part of it because if it's
8 --- if you have to stay on the permitted route for a permitted
9 load and there's not a safe place on there, you could be fined
10 again. So we might as well fix that. We're going to fix ---
11 we're fixing things as we go along. Maybe we should fix that.
12 And do you have any comments about that?
13 MR. BRESSLER: We should certainly look at that with
14 the stakeholders for sure.
15 REPRESENTATIVE SACCONE: Thank you.
16 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Thank you.
17 Deb, did you have a comment you wanted to make?
18 MS. ABEL: I was going to save it for later, but it
19 was just a --- I wanted to comment on Representative Lawrence's
20 statement. I just wanted to say that our industry works very
21 hard, especially --- I mean, we're here --- we are the
22 Association. We are the professional face of the towing
23 industry. We spend so much time on making sure that our
24 industry performs their services within the law, and we spend
25 an extreme amount of money on training, our equipment.
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 46
1 The trucks that we have are millions of dollars. We
2 spend millions of dollars on equipment so that we can have the
3 safest and the best way to provide our service. No one is
4 trying to get away with doing more for less or anything of that
5 such. That's --- we just want to provide the best service to
6 our customers in the safest way possible. And we think that by
7 passing a law like this is very reasonable to do so.
8 And I'm not sure who it was who made a comment about
9 how far we need to go to tow a truck, how far we need to
10 respond, but we have many private customers. We have customer
11 s like UPS, transports like A. Duie Pyle. Their trucks are all
12 over the place. And if that's our customer and they want us to
13 go, we have to go. We can't say, no, get somebody else, or
14 else we lose that customer. So there are plenty of times and
15 opportunities when we need to go that extra mile, as we say.
16 Although, obviously, that's a negotiating point here, I just
17 wanted to let you know that it's not --- it's not unreasonable
18 for us to go that far on a daily basis. Thank you.
19 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Great.
20 Well, I want to thank you all for your testimony
21 today. We've heard exactly what we needed to hear from you,
22 and your testimony today was great. We thank you for it.
23 Our next panel is Mr. Bob Pento and Matt Hedge with
24 PennDOT. Gentlemen, it's great to have you here with us today.
25 MR. PENTO: Thank you.
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 47
1 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: And you can begin your testimony
2 when you're ready.
3 Think we do have your testimony in here.
4 Right?
5 MR. PENTO: You do.
6 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Okay. Great.
7 MR. PENTO: I apologize. It may --- it may be
8 stamped still as draft, but that is the final testimony.
9 Again, I'd like to thank the --- the Department
10 would like to begin by thanking the House Transportation
11 Committee and House Veterans and Affairs and Emergency
12 Preparedness Committee members for the opportunity to express
13 our concerns regarding House Bill 1678.
14 We feel if this bill is passed as presented, we
15 believe the Commonwealth's critical infrastructure as well as
16 overall public safety will be negatively affected.
17 The Department's very focused on preserving our
18 existing infrastructure as it ages, most importantly our
19 statewide inventory of structurally deficient bridges. To
20 maximize the available budget, the Department maintains roads
21 and bridges so they can reach their maximum life cycle. We
22 believe the proposed bill could, at a minimum, shorten the
23 lifespan of our critical infrastructure; in the worst case, the
24 overall weight of tow truck combinations allowed by the bill
25 could cause a bridge collapse.
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 48
1 The current statute allows tow trucks to move
2 disabled vehicles a place of repair or a place of safety as
3 directed by an authorized emergency personnel or a qualified
4 Commonwealth employee. Currently, the Commonwealth can
5 minimize the risk associated with moving overweight vehicles in
6 several ways, first being movement is initiated by authorized
7 personnel.
8 In this instance, the authorized personnel decide
9 when a tow vehicle is needed. They can then contact an
10 appropriate company to respond.
11 The distance being towed is controlled by --- is
12 controlled by authorized personnel. The authorized personnel
13 decide when a tow vehicle --- authorized --- I'm sorry,
14 authorized personnel are typically native to the incident
15 location and are familiar with the closest areas of safety and
16 repairs.
17 Route is established by authorized personnel.
18 Bridge and road concerns are addressed before authorization to
19 move is given. The Department mitigates any risk to the public
20 using our analysis tools when necessary. And that would be the
21 --- the APRAS system that was mentioned.
22 Movement is limited to disabled vehicles. The
23 Department prefers that a vehicle move under its own power or
24 be replaced with a serviceable vehicle when possible. The
25 Department will only contact a tow truck when it is the safest,
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 49
1 most efficient means to address the condition in he field.
2 And lastly, conditions in the field can be addressed
3 on a case-by-case basis with public safety and convenience in
4 mind and determined by authorized personnel.
5 The proposed bill allows tow truck operators more
6 flexibility to serve their customers. They would be able to
7 move the vehicle to a place of repair or safety within 75 miles
8 if the entire combination is under 150 feet long, and in the
9 case of a permitted load, the tow truck combination remains on
10 the permitted route. The proposed bill also returns authority
11 of the move back to the Commonwealth when the provisions of the
12 bill cannot be met.
13 The Department has several concerns with the bill.
14 The primary concern is a combination of a fully-loaded
15 tractor-trailer --- tractor and trailer with a tow truck which
16 exceeds legal maximum weight limits. The Department has many
17 bridges which are rated to handle loads up to a maximum legal
18 limit of 80,000 pounds. Under the proposed legislation these
19 bridges would be exposed to loads greater than their rating.
20 Exposing bridges to loads exceeding their maximum weight limit
21 could result in costly damage to the Commonwealth's
22 infrastructure or worse, resulting in a bridge failure, which
23 not only would put the tow truck driver at risk but also the
24 motoring public.
25 In addition, for most vehicles being towed, there is
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 50
1 a place of safety or repair within a few miles of the breakdown
2 or incident location. The Department believes it's safer for
3 the vehicle to be moved to the nearest place of safety or
4 repair and fixed than allowing the towing combination to travel
5 up to 75 miles to a place --- to a location of their choosing,
6 the decision made in the field, or choosing while exposing the
7 State's infrastructure to loads exceeding legal maximum weight
8 limits.
9 When permitted vehicles are concerned, each vehicle
10 is analyzed based on the information provided in the
11 application. Adding a towing vehicle to a permitted load
12 completely changes the analysis. The application --- the
13 application result would likely change, or at the very least,
14 provisions would need to be added to the permit to ensure
15 public safety.
16 Further, the provisions of the bill we see are not
17 --- are not enforceable. Since the Department is not involved
18 in the process through which the haulers dispatch tow trucks,
19 we're not aware if the point of disability is accurately
20 documented prior to towing. Consequently, it's not clear if
21 there will be a way to determine if the towing operation
22 remains less than 75 miles from that location. There's also no
23 means to determine if the towing operation obeyed all
24 applicable road and bridge weight restrictions.
25 The final point of concern is the proposed bill does
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 51
1 not specify any conditions regarding the size of the tow ruck
2 in relation to the size of the vehicle or combination being
3 towed. This could create an unsafe condition for a tow truck
4 that is too small and underpowered to tow the disabled vehicle.
5 So in conclusion, the current law established in
6 Section 4949 of the Vehicle Code gives the Department the
7 necessary authority to address every emergency condition that
8 may arise on Commonwealth roads. This ensures that incidents
9 affecting the roadway can be addressed in a safe and efficient
10 manner, ensuring public safety as the first priority. It's our
11 view that the proposed bill increases the risk to the safety of
12 the motoring public, could reduce the overall lifespan of
13 critical infrastructure, including, in the worst case,
14 potentially causing a structural failure, increases the
15 Department's budgetary requirements, and will be difficult to
16 enforce.
17 If an area of safety or repair facility is not
18 conveniently available for a disabled load, the Department has
19 an automated system, which is called APRAS, the Automated
20 Permit Routing and Analysis System, which is available 24
21 hours, seven days a week, to haulers designed to analyze loads
22 over legal limits. APRAS will analyze a specific route and
23 determine if the route is safe for the load and issue a permit
24 within minutes. We would suggest that the towing industry use
25 the APRAS system to ensure the safety of their drivers, the
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 52
1 motoring public and the State's infrastructure if an area of
2 safety or repair facility is not conveniently available.
3 Through prior legislative meetings, we've volunteered to work
4 with the industry to work out the details of this option.
5 So on behalf of the Department, I would like to
6 thank the House Transportation Committee and the House Veterans
7 Affair and Emergency Preparedness Committee and their members
8 for allowing me to speak here today.
9 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Is that a Marine Corps --- do you
10 have a Marine Corps tie clip?
11 MR . PENTO : Yes , I do .
12 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Okay.
13 We have several Marines onboard here, so ---.
14 MR. PENTO: Semper Fi, everybody.
15 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Great to have you here.
16 But we have a bunch of questions for you, so I'll
17 start with Representative Saccone.
18 REPRESENTATIVE SACCONE: Thank you, Chairman.
19 So listening to the prior testimony, if one truck is
20 towing another truck, isn't that very similar in load to two
21 trucks following closely behind? There's no difference really
22 in the weight on the bridge or the road.
23 Right?
24 MR. HEDGE: Well, the difference is, is that those
25 two vehicles are now a heavier combination vehicle. I mean,
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 53
1 they are axel weight-wise probably similar. But depending on
2 the bridge and how long the bridge is, you could have a
3 definitely negative impact on that bridge.
4 REPRESENTATIVE SACCONE: And if they're traveling
5 over a bridge and they're similar --- they're similar in weight
6 as two vehicles traveling closely behind, I mean, this kind of
7 f towing happens very rarely and it's of short duration, so is
8 it really reducing --- can you really calculate it's reducing
9 the overall lifespan of a bridge?
10 MR. HEDGE: Oh, absolutely.
11 REPRESENTATIVE SACCONE: And how would you --- how
12 would you say that two trucks traveling behind each other,
13 which happens a lot, is any different from a person that's
14 being towed, one behind the other, which happens very rarely,
15 is going to reduce the lifespan of that bridge in any
16 significant ---.
17 MR. HEDGE: Well, in the condition that we're
18 talking about, we're talking about a vehicle that is now in
19 overweight condition, whereas previously it was a legal-sized
20 truck. Now you have the tow truck and the trailer, so now you
21 have an oversized --- or an overweight condition. So that
22 overweight condition is adding to or reducing the life of that
23 bridge.
24 REPRESENTATIVE SACCONE: All right. I think that's
25 --- I think that's --- I'd like to hear what the other side has
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 54
1 to say about that because I think that's a little different
2 than what we heard in the previous testimony.
3 Have we had any bridge collapses in Maryland or new
4 York due to trucks being towed like this? You said that this
5 could result in a bridge collapse. Have we had any instances
6 in states where they do allow this? Have we had any instances
7 where there's been an actual bridge collapse?
8 MR. HEDGE: I'm not aware. I don't have that ---.
9 REPRESENTATIVE SACCONE: I would think that would be
10 a newsworthy item. I'd just caution you because PennDOT --- in
11 my experience and particularly since I'm in the legislature,
12 they're all going to say, oh, this is a safety issue, it's done
13 for safety, believe me, but you know, we should --- we
14 shouldn't go overboard like there's going to be a collapse or
15 there's going to be this or that if we don't really have any
16 evidence of that happening. I'm just saying. Unless you have
17 evidence of that.
18 MR. HEDGE: No. But we do have the capacity of the
19 bridges. And if the combination of the tow truck and the
20 trailer exceed the capacity of the bridge, then it is likely
21 that, like we said, there would be additional damage or a
22 possible collapse. All of the bridge management system that we
23 do have calculates those --- what the capacity of that bridge
24 is based on the information that we have about that bridge.
25 MR. PENTO: Down to --- and I'd stress down to
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 55
1 specific individual axle loadings. So when that tow truck hits
2 you and actually picks up --- picks up the front of the
3 vehicle, even if it's --- even if it's six inches off of the
4 ground, that's changing the axle --- the axle loadings and the
5 individual configurations. So when enforcement teams are out
6 and they do a weigh, they weigh each individual axle because,
7 depending on our bridge and the condition, when we do our
8 analysis, those individual axle loadings come into play. And
9 that's the unknown that we're concerned about.
10 REPRESENTATIVE SACCONE: One more thing. So when
11 you --- for permitted loads, which we just talked about before,
12 because i think there's a little glitch in the law that you
13 might need to address bout permitted loads. Do you calculate
14 --- because you heard the previous testimony I'm sure. Do you
15 calculate when issuing the permit that there'll be a breakdown
16 and you might have to be a tow and that would cause either some
17 variation in the route or it would cause a variation in the
18 weight if they have to go over a bridge? And if you don't,
19 should --- why don't you start calculating that into the permit
20 so that we don't have this problem in the future?
21 MR. HEDGE: We do approximately 400,000 permits a
22 year. And the ability --- if we were to try and work in that
23 extra weight due to a tow truck for every load, it really
24 wouldn't be fair to those --- those loads that they're, you
25 know, traveling at far less weight. They would most likely
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 56
1 have to move around particular bridges or travel over or build
2 up bridges with --- jumper bridges is what they call them or
3 some other means. It would be very --- it would be very
4 difficult for industry to be able to accommodate that kind of
5 additional weight for no reason.
6 REPRESENTATIVE SACCONE: So if there wasn't any ---
7 I mean, if it was a lighter load, you wouldn't have to
8 calculate that. You could say, look, it would be all right, if
9 I had a tow truck in this particular permit, it wouldn't affect
10 it, so I wouldn't have to worry about it is what I'm thinking.
11 Is that wrong? You don't have to worry about --- on the
12 permitted loads, the really heavy ones, if he breaks down,
13 where's he going to go, where's the safe place he's going to
14 pull off to and how much additional load as you're calculating
15 with the tow truck being there? It will only come into play on
16 various small number of loads. Not all 400,000 permits would
17 require it. That's what I'm thinking.
18 MR. HEDGE: Maybe I misunderstood your question. If
19 a load was to break down on the side of the road and it was
20 going to be turned into an overweight condition, they could, on
21 the side of the road, use the APRAS system, or we could, the
22 authorized personnel would contact us and we could run that
23 through APRAS and determine whether it was safe for them to
24 make it to the particular safe location.
25 REPRESENTATIVE SACCONE: Thank you.
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 57
1 MR. Hedge: That's kind of our process now.
2 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Thank you, Representative.
3 Representative Ryan?
4 I'm sorry. Bill? Let me go to Chairman Keller.
5 CHAIRMAN KELLER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr.
6 Pento, do you know how many structurally deficient bridges are
7 in Pennsylvania?
8 MR. PENTO: 3,472.
9 CHAIRMAN KELLER: That's exact.
10 MR. PENTO: As of --- as of July 3rd.
11 CHAIRMAN KELLER: So it's really --- let's not get
12 far away from your job is to make sure the highways and bridges
13 are safe. We are dealing with a problem that's structurally
14 deficient bridges, so it's just not willy-nilly that you choose
15 to enforce the weight load on them, especially those bridges
16 that are structurally deficient.
17 MR. PENTO: That's correct.
18 CHAIRMAN KELLER: Thank you.
19 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Okay.
20 Representative Ryan?
21 REPRESENTATIVE RYAN: Mr. Chairman, thank you very
22 much. And he actually stole my question, so I'll be done
23 earlier. They're using the 5,050 and they ranked us right
24 behind Iowa in terms of structurally safe bridges.
25 Are we attacking the right problem? In your
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 58
1 testimony you know there's an issue that we don't have
2 sufficient funds allocated to make sure that bridges are not
3 structurally deficient and we're codifying rules and
4 regulations for transporting damaged vehicles. Do we have the
5 right problem being solved with the way we're approaching it?
6 In other words, opposing this bill, are we inadvertently just
7 allowing the problem to continue with structurally deficient
8 bridges?
9 MR. HEDGE: I think that the current legislation
10 addresses our ability to allow the heaviest possible loads to
11 go over those structurally deficient bridges because we have
12 that information available to us. So just because a load is
13 structurally deficient doesn't necessarily mean that we
14 wouldn't send an overweight load over it if it could handle ---
15 if it could handle it.
16 REPRESENTATIVE RYAN: I used to manufacture power
17 steering wheels. The reason I'm asking the question is
18 Representative Barbin brought up a really good issue. When
19 there is an accident, the structural integrity of the vehicle
20 being towed can be challenged at best. And in the Marine Corps
21 we would always say that it's best to leave the decision making
22 at those people who are on the ground and at the site.
23 What I like about the legislation that we certainly
24 are proposing is that it gives a great degree of parameters to
25 the police, to the heavy equipment operator and those to make
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 59
1 an informed decision. And if the law is too restrictive with
2 all these variables, you just run I think the risk of bad
3 decisions getting made because the law constrains it. And if I
4 were to be faced with a potential $30,000 fine, I would think
5 that I would opt on the side of not getting fined, which could
6 put the public safety at risk.
7 So the question I would ask is for the tow truck
8 operator who's got all these complicated variables, what's the
9 best way the DOT, the tow truck operator and the State Police
10 or the law enforcement agencies can work together to not face
11 these risk of massive fines when the public safety really is
12 the issue?
13 MR. HEDGE: Well, I think part of the
14 misunderstanding, as I understood it when I was listening to
15 the testimony before, the --- the State Police officer
16 authorized them to go to a particular location.
17 REPRESENTATIVE RYAN: Right.
18 MR. HEDGE: He went to that location and he wasn't
19 able to stay there. He then went on to another location, and
20 that's when he was stopped. So he didn't --- he didn't have
21 authorization to leave that --- that location. At the point in
22 which he was not able to stay at that location, he needed to
23 contact the State Police or an authorized personnel to give him
24 authority to go to the next location. That seems to be where
25 the mistake was.
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 60
1 REPRESENTATIVE RYAN: The testimony about the
2 structurally-deficient bridges is really what gives me pause to
3 say we have to allow the tow truck operator the judgment to
4 know, because you've got public safety at issue. And I've seen
5 similar situations where people driving 65, 70 miles an hour
6 around an accident are just creating an environment where
7 someone is going to have to stop and say I've got a load behind
8 me under 50 feet, 75,000, 80,000 or more pounds, and now I've
9 got to wait for permission to move this thing rather than
10 getting it off the road. Are we making this thing more
11 complicated than we need it to be?
12 MR. HEDGE: I don't --- I don't believe so. I
13 really don't. The possibility of something catastrophic
14 occurring, even with a safety or bridge-related issue, I think
15 that the --- you know, the State Police are responding to that
16 issue and they have the authority to make those decisions.
17 The tow truck driver himself does not have the ---
18 does not have access to APRAS in the field, the Automated
19 Permit Routing Analysis System. He wouldn't be able to know
20 whether it's safe for him to go through construction zones or
21 over or under bridges or things of that nature.
22 REPRESENTATIVE RYAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
23 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Great. Thank you.
24 Representative Culver?
25 REPRESENTATIVE CULVER: So I think I'm fortunate
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 61
1 enough to live in a maintenance district where I think we have
2 less than six percent structurally deficient bridges. But
3 that's been a great effort on our part to get there.
4 But in any given year and in a good year there's
5 always going to be structurally-deficient bridges. Am I
6 correct with that?
7 MR. HEDGE: Correct.
8 REPRESENTATIVE CULVER: Because you're always
9 cycling through ---.
10 MR. HEDGE: The goal is to get that to zero.
11 REPRESENTATIVE CULVER: Right. But I don't think it
12 will get to zero.
13 MR. HEDGE: Yes.
14 REPRESENTATIVE CULVER: So when you went over your
15 analysis and your one through five here, is that's what
16 currently in place?
17 MR. HEDGE: Yes. One through five gives us the
18 ability to handle all those conditions.
19 REPRESENTATIVE CULVER: And the new legislation
20 you'll say will take all of that away or some of that away?
21 MR. HEDGE: It takes some of it away.
22 REPRESENTATIVE CULVER: And what's the most
23 concerning part of that that will be going away?
24 MR. HEDGE: The ones that related to weight, the
25 removal of the authorized personnel, so they'd be able to make
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 62
1 those decisions on their own to move any vehicle they wanted.
2 There's no indication as to whether the vehicle is
3 actually broken down or not.
4 REPRESENTATIVE CULVER: Okay.
5 MR. HEDGE: The 75 miles puts thousands of bridges
6 in jeopardy, just to start off with.
7 REPRESENTATIVE CULVER: So if currently we have a
8 situation on the side of the road and they need to move it, how
9 long does it take to give the permission to do that?
10 MR. HEDGE: From the authorized --- from the State
11 Police? I'm not sure.
12 REPRESENTATIVE CULVER: Okay.
13 I mean, I think the concern is we're trying to make
14 the safety for the public that has broken down, the towers,
15 maintain our roads and bridges. I'm just curious, is there a
16 way we could streamline thi a little faster than we currently
17 are?
18 MR. HEDGE: I don't know.
19 REPRESENTATIVE CULVER: Okay.
20 MR. HEDGE: I guess because I don't know how long it
21 takes for State Police to respond to that --- those instances.
22 REPRESENTATIVE CULVER: Okay.
23 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: So I think that points to the
24 unfairness to the tower because if the State Trooper has left
25 or the police officer has left and he pulls into a lot thinking
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 63
1 that, you know, he can leave --- drop the truck there and a guy
2 --- a private property owner comes up and says, no, you're not,
3 now the trooper's gone, you know, can't reach PennDOT, so the
4 tower makes a judgment call and ---
5 MR. HEDGE: Well, he shouldn't make a judgment call.
6 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: --- he ends up with a $30,000
7 fine.
8 MR. HEDGE: Well, we have --- we have the
9 opportunity through the Pennsylvania Emergency Management
10 Agency to respond to those kind of calls 24/7. There's also
11 --- State Police are --- they're working all the time.
12 I'm not sure what condition it would be that they
13 would not be able to get in touch with somebody that would give
14 them authority to move to the next location.
15 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: If I owned the property ---.
16 MR. HEDGE: Oh, I understand that.
17 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: I'm just saying, what do you do?
18 The guy comes out, you're on my property, get off, and you
19 don't have the authority to wait for a trooper to show up, you
20 have to move it. Unless we put a law in there that says
21 private property owner can't refuse you --- in Pennsylvania,
22 property rights are ---.
23 Okay. All right. I'm just kidding.
24 Representative Culver?
25 REPRESENTATIVE CULVER: I think I'm okay.
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 64
1 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Okay. Good. Good.
2 All right. Representative Keller --- Chairman
3 Keller?
4 CHAIRMAN KELLER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And you
5 know I never pass up an opportunity to plug Act 89. I just
6 want to point out especially to the new members, we're in our
7 fifth year of Act 89. Before Act 89 took effect, we had over
8 5,000 deficient bridges. Now, five years later, we're around
9 3,000 and some. So Act 89 is making a big dent into the
10 structurally deficient bridges in Pennsylvania.
11 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
12 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: I think they're doing a bang-up
13 job. I really do.
14 Representative Neilson?
15 REPRESENTATIVE NEILSON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. A
16 couple questions.
17 Under your testimony it stated --- I mean, very
18 concerning, a bridge could collapse. Real concerning. And we
19 talked about the 4,000 and Act 89 Chairman Keller just brought
20 up and what it's doing there.
21 Your concern about these bridges collapsing, what
22 has the Department done to close these bridges so there's no
23 truck traffic? I mean, if that's a concern that you tell us
24 here today, I mean, this is an easy thing for you to do. You
25 close the bridge to truck traffic. How many bridges have you
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 65
1 closed in Pennsylvania to truck traffic because you're
2 concerned with something --- with 80,000 pounds, which under
3 the law is allowable, 80,000, if I'm correct? So you're saying
4 80,000 pounds, which was one of your concerns that you pointed
5 out in your testimony. Okay.
6 MR. HEDGE: Yes.
7 REPRESENTATIVE NEILSON: The bridge can't handle it.
8 How many bridges have you shut down, the Department shut down,
9 because they can't handle 80,000? So it doesn't matter if
10 they're towing a truck or towing anything, they can't handle
11 80,000 pounds. You just said it in your testimony.
12 I would like to know how many bridges the Department
13 shut down to truck traffic because they can't handle 80,000
14 pounds?
15 MR. HEDGE: We don't have an exact number on
16 the ---.
17 REPRESENTATIVE NEILSON: Could you get that to us,
18 please?
19 MR. PENTO: Absolutely.
20 MR. HEDGE: Yeah, we can get that to you.
21 REPRESENTATIVE NEILSON: I'd like to know that. And
22 I'm sure the chairman would like to know that because that's
23 concerning. Because on my way here today, okay, I was on a ---
24 I was stuck on a bridge because of construction with three
25 trucks, tractor-trailers, in front of me on that same bridge in
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 66
1 traffic. I mean, if they can't handle 80,000 pounds now, I
2 mean, those --- even --- I don't know what those bridges --- I
3 don't know where your bridge list is, but I shouldn't have been
4 on that --- there was more cars around me. It's a four-lane
5 bridge.
6 MR. HEDGE: Well, those bridges that are --- that
7 are not able to handle 80,000 pounds are posted. You'll see a
8 bridge posting before you go over the bridge that has, you
9 know, whatever that actual posting would need to be, ---
10 MR. PENTO: Restriction.
11 MR. HEDGE: --- whether it be 35 tons or 10 tons or
12 5 tons, whatever that bridge's capacity is, is less than 80,000
13 pounds it would show up there.
14 REPRESENTATIVE NEILSON: So under the testimony here
15 today, is it --- I just want to try and --- because we don't
16 address --- this bill addresses nothing but 80,000 pounds.
17 This bill addresses none of that.
18 MR. HEDGE: Right.
19 REPRESENTATIVE NEILSON: We need to address that
20 because it could cause bridge collapses and stuff like that
21 because of the weight.
22 What have you been doing legislatively to fix that
23 80,000-pound number that you're concerned with? I mean, I
24 haven't seen anything from the Department since I got here to
25 say, hey, look, 80,000 is too much. I came to the committee or
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 67
1 the legislature. We might want to get that down to 70,000.
2 What's the Department doing to try and bring that number down,
3 the 80,000? Because if we're letting trucks now go to 80,000
4 and that's not a number we should be looking at, this bill
5 doesn't address that. I don't know why that was in your
6 testimony, but that's your call.
7 Is it your testimony that you want us to change the
8 law and make it 60,000 max or 70,000 max? I'm trying to
9 understand where you --- because you're telling us the way the
10 law is now, you can carry 80,000 pounds.
11 MR. PENTO: Without a permit. Without a permit I
12 would stress.
13 MR. HEDGE: Yes. What we're stating is, is that if
14 you exceed 80,000 pounds, then we have the ability to run that
15 through our Automated Permit Routing Analysis System to
16 determine whether it's safe for you to go over that bridge if
17 you exceed 80,000 pounds. So the way that the bill is current
18 --- the way the current legislation is, it gives us that
19 opportunity. We have the authorized personnel out there to
20 determine where he's going. If he doesn't know whether it's
21 safe to go over that bridge, he can get that --- he can get
22 that done. We can run it through our system to make sure that
23 that can happen.
24 REPRESENTATIVE NEILSON: So the legislation that
25 Chairman Barrar, and I'm a co-sponsor I must say, that is
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 68
1 introduced here, what stops that? There's nothing in this bill
2 that stops that from happening.
3 MR. HEDGE: The bill doesn't. They can go wherever
4 they ---.
5 REPRESENTATIVE NEILSON: Oh, okay.
6 MR. HEDGE: That's what I'm saying. The bill allows
7 them to go over those bridges without a check-in.
8 REPRESENTATIVE NEILSON: Okay.
9 So we're saying when they tow that trailer, they're
10 going to be more than 80,000 pounds?
11 MR. HEDGE: Correct.
12 REPRESENTATIVE NEILSON: And that is your concern?
13 MR. HEDGE: Yes.
14 REPRESENTATIVE NEILSON: And that concern is that
15 they don't have a permit from you?
16 MR. HEDGE: They did not get it analyzed, that's
17 correct.
18 REPRESENTATIVE NEILSON: So do you think we should
19 lower that standard to --- I mean, raise the standard of that
20 and bring them standards up and say maybe you need a permit for
21 60,000 pounds? This way it's covered under there. I mean,
22 what's your solution to that? You told us the problem. I'd
23 like to know what your solution is.
24 MR. HEDGE: The solution is that they would get a
25 permit or they would get it run through the system?
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 69
1 REPRESENTATIVE NEILSON: In an emergency situation?
2 MR. HEDGE: In an emergency situation. The analysis
3 process is still only a couple of minutes that takes to do
4 that.
5 REPRESENTATIVE NEILSON: So you would want us to
6 mandate them to get something on the side of the road before
7 they get a truck.
8 Right?
9 MR. HEDGE: Right.
10 REPRESENTATIVE NEILSON: Okay.
11 MR. PENTO: And I think the other concern is
12 allowing up to 75 miles, that's many more opportunities for
13 that load --- if it's in the unpermitted situation, then
14 they're not --- they're not running on the route that's already
15 established under the permit. There's lots of opportunities
16 that they're going to run over --- potentially run over more
17 bridges that may not be --- that may not be suitable for the
18 loading that they're --- that they are now configured with.
19 And it hasn't been analyzed, so it's a risk.
20 REPRESENTATIVE NEILSON: I mean, you mentioned that
21 you did post those bridges, right, they are posted?
22 MR. PENTO: They are posted. They would be posted.
23 REPRESENTATIVE NEILSON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I
24 have nothing further.
25 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Thank you.
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 70
1 REPRESENTATIVE NEILSON: Thank you, gentlemen, for
2 your testimony today.
3 MR. HEDGE: Thank you.
4 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Representative Barbin?
5 REPRESENTATIVE BARBIN: My question is how many
6 states mandate the APRAS system for the truck --- the tow truck
7 industry? Any?
8 MR. HEDGE: How many states mandate the use of ---?
9 REPRESENTATIVE BARBIN: Yeah. What you're saying in
10 your objection to this other than weight restrictions and
11 possible problems with the bridges is that you really should
12 have the tow truck people, whether they're required to do it
13 because of police or otherwise, to use your system. Is there
14 any other state that's using the APRAS system and mandating
15 that the tow trucks in this situation must use it for their
16 purpose?
17 MR. HEDGE: Well, I don't know about the tow truck
18 side of things, but I know ---.
19 REPRESENTATIVE BARBIN: Well, I'm only interested in
20 the tow trucks. That's the bill. My question's very simple.
21 Do any other states mandate the APRAS system toward a tow
22 truck?
23 MR. HEDGE: We don't have the answer to that.
24 MR. PENTO: We'll have to --- we'll have to get that
25 and be happy to get back to you with that answer.
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 71
1 REPRESENTATIVE BARBIN: All right. Thank you.
2 MR. PENTO: Thank you.
3 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Okay.
4 Representative Jozwiak?
5 REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
6 On the bridge issue, my colleagues in Philadelphia
7 are used to seeing bridges like the --- across the Delaware
8 River, maybe it's a hundred million pound bridge, I don't know
9 what it is, but there are bridges in Pennsylvania that are 150
10 feet long, that's small. When you put a vehicle on there
11 that's already 1,000 pounds or 160,000 pounds, that's a stress
12 on that bridge and it may collapse.
13 Is that correct?
14 MR. HEDGE: That is correct.
15 REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: Now, in the bill there's a
16 figure of 150 foot long. Is that --- how many vehicles do you
17 give permits for over --- are over those limits --- are over
18 150 feet or more?
19 MR. HEDGE: Do you need an exact number?
20 REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: No, no, just an average.
21 MR. HEDGE: I would say a quarter, maybe a hundred
22 thousand.
23 REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: Okay.
24 So those vehicles that are that long must go on
25 certain routes because of making turns, going off the ramps and
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 72
1 have stated that they can't --- they got to straddle three
2 lanes and they go onto an access route. So that's why your
3 system, your APRAS system, is very important to these guys
4 towing these vehicles. They have to know what bridges they can
5 cross and where they can actually move and turn safely. That's
6 what I'm hearing.
7 Am I correct?
8 MR. HEDGE: That's correct.
9 REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: So to have them use your
10 system, if they have to move it to a point of safety, that's
11 generally close. But if they're going to try to go further,
12 then they need to get a permit to get authorization of what
13 road to go to before the vehicle can be disconnected from the
14 truck to the trailer or even the double trailers, to tow them.
15 Is that correct?
16 MR. HEDGE: That is correct.
17 REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
18 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Thank you.
19 Representative Heffley?
20 REPRESENTATIVE HEFFLEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
21 Just --- I don't really want to close any more bridges. I like
22 my colleague, but ---.
23 REPRESENTATIVE NEILSON: I'm just trying to be safe.
24 I mean, what's wrong with being safe?
25 REPRESENTATIVE HEFFLEY: Question for PennDOT. If a
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 73
1 bridge is not posted and if an overpass is not posted --- so if
2 an overpass is not posted, it's got to be 50 feet or greater to
3 not be posted.
4 Correct?
5 MR. HEDGE: Fourteen (14) feet, 6 inches, yes.
6 REPRESENTATIVE HEFFLEY: Fourteen (14) feet, 6
7 inches or greater than. So if there's no posting, that
8 overpass is 14 feet, 6 inches or greater than that?
9 MR. HEDGE: That's correct.
10 REPRESENTATIVE HEFFLEY: If there is no weight
11 posted on a bridge, what is --- what is the weight that you can
12 haul on that bridge?
13 MR. HEDGE: If it's not posted, ---
14 REPRESENTATIVE HEFFLEY: Yeah.
15 MR. HEDGE: --- then you're allowed to carry up to
16 80,000 pounds.
17 REPRESENTATIVE HEFFLEY: But --- yes. But what is
18 the bridge built for?
19 MR. HEDGE: Oh.
20 REPRESENTATIVE HEFFLEY: So if you had a permit ---
21 if you're going to haul a permitted load over that bridge, what
22 do you build the bridge to?
23 MR. HEDGE: I'm not a bridge engineer. The bridges
24 are all built to their own specification. So that number that
25 you're looking for, there's no blanket that this bridge was
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 74
1 built for 120,000 pounds or this was built to 200,000 pounds.
2 That's what --- that's what the system is designed for, so that
3 we can take the capacity of the bridge and marry it up with the
4 axle weights and configurations of the load to determine
5 whether it's safe to take that load over that bridge.
6 REPRESENTATIVE HEFFLEY: So primarily if you look at
7 that 75 miles that you're going to be towing, the chances of
8 them running over --- running over a light --- a light bridge
9 could vary every time. The chance of them running 75 miles
10 back roads wouldn't really cost that much. So if we're looking
11 at --- we're dealing with a --- it would be very rare instances
12 where they're going to be going that far. Would that be an
13 assumption?
14 MR. HEDGE: That's --- I wouldn't know that.
15 REPRESENTATIVE HEFFLEY: Because I mean it's a rule
16 of thumb if you're in the transportation industry if the bridge
17 is not posted and the height is not posted, you know what that
18 height is. So you may have an oversized load. So I mean, not
19 every load is overweight. Oversized doesn't mean overweight.
20 It means oversized, a particular width. So you have to look at
21 where you can take that load, if you're towing it or anything
22 else, because it's just not going to fit, ---
23 MR. HEDGE: Right.
24 REPRESENTATIVE HEFFLEY: --- no more than if you
25 know the weight, that you're going to damage that. So I would
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 75
1 think that most tow truck operators are going to know that.
2 Plus you're looking at axle --- they do haul
3 oversized loads or overweight loads. You see those trailers
4 have many more axles on them, because you're really judging
5 them by the span between the axles and the amount of ---
6 percentage of weight on each one of those axles. I mean,
7 that's a big thing. When you see trucks get overweight
8 tickets, a lot of times it axle weight, that they didn't scale
9 the load out. So it's not that they're over 80,000 pounds.
10 You could be under 80,000 pounds, but if you don't have that
11 --- if you don't have that truck scaled properly you could
12 still be breaking the law going over a short-span bridge
13 because you got too much weight on those axles that are on the
14 bridge --- there's a lot of different variables.
15 When you're looking at this, one thing you --- I
16 would just say that I do --- we need to look at this issue.
17 It's very costly for carriers. I hear horror stories all the
18 time. A lot of times it's easy for PennDOT. They just take
19 them to the closest yard to drop it. So a lot of times at
20 these yards, I've seen carriers get $20,000 bills just to get
21 the truck out because it's been impounded somewhere. And it's
22 not so much in Pennsylvania but certain parts of the state.
23 But in other states it's a racket. I mean, have a truck towed
24 off the George Washington Bridge because it had a couple flat
25 tires. All he did was hook it up and drag it off the bridge.
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 76
1 The driver could have done that. Put in the impound yard and
2 charge a couple grand to get the truck out. So I mean, I don't
3 want to become that. You know, I want to make sure
4 Pennsylvania is doing a little bit better. But I think that
5 allowing them to haul that 75 miles --- I'd go back to my
6 earlier comment, if it's safer --- the standard that I've
7 always applied from working in that industry, if it's safe for
8 10 miles, you want to make sure it's safe for 70 miles. If
9 you're going to put your seatbelt on, you put it on when you're
10 driving to the grocery store or if you're driving, you know, a
11 half-hour away, you know. So I would say those same standards
12 are going to apply if they're going 10 miles or 75 miles.
13 And I think just in the summary, and I would ask the
14 research team to clarify, but it's in the summary to remove
15 weight restrictions for tow trucks towing disabled vehicles as
16 long as the operator of the vehicle obeys all road and bridge
17 weight restrictions and travels on a permitted route.
18 So if a tow truck operator hooks up to an
19 80,000-pound load or maybe a 120,000-pound load, because they
20 can tow that as well if it's an open weight limit, and they
21 come up to a bridge that says 60,000 pounds, they can't go over
22 it. But if they come up to a bridge that's not posted, they
23 could go over it. So we're not taking --- we're not saying
24 that they can run over light bridges. If you post a bridge,
25 they can't go over it. I mean, they still have to obey all the
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 77
1 laws. So if that --- if it's legal for that weight, they're
2 going to go over it. If it's not, they're not going to go over
3 it because nine chances out of ten they're going to wind up in
4 the creek or whatever if the bridge is going over. So we're
5 not --- we're not giving them any more ability --- we're not
6 asking them to go over light bridges with heavier loads. We're
7 just saying that they have to --- they have to obey those laws
8 that are posted.
9 MR. HEDGE: The way that the legislation is
10 currently written, all those bridges that are not posted would
11 have to be posted at whatever their capacity might be. We'd
12 have to --- we'd have to post them for whatever that ---
13 whatever that weight is over 80,000 pounds. So if they picked
14 up the load --- an 80,000-pound tow truck picked up an
15 80,000-pound load, we'd have to make sure that every bridge
16 that couldn't handle 160,000 pounds was posted that way. So we
17 --- so I mean, that's kind of --- that's going to add ---.
18 REPRESENTATIVE NEILSON: If I can? But there's not
19 a bridge in the Commonwealth, I mean, that built bridges
20 normally --- and that particular load, once the crews respect
21 that, 160,000 pounds isn't really --- we should --- I mean,
22 that says, okay, it's 160, then we shouldn't have more than two
23 trucks on that bridge at one time. But that's not what we do.
24 That's --- they're built for more than that. I mean, they're
25 built for a traffic jam, for --- and we're talking maybe an
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 78
1 emergency in the middle of the night, somebody driving off.
2 And that's what I was trying to get ---.
3 MR. HEDGE: That's part of the calculations, both
4 sides.
5 REPRESENTATIVE NEILSON: Both sides and multiple
6 cars on it?
7 MR. HEDGE: Right.
8 REPRESENTATIVE NEILSON: So that bridge could be
9 built --- a four-lane bridge could be built for a 60,000-pound
10 vehicle?
11 MR. HEDGE: Right, that's part of the calculation.
12 REPRESENTATIVE HEFFLEY: All right.
13 I don't want to get real technical, but I'm looking
14 at you --- if you're going to tow a big vehicle, commercial
15 vehicle, tractor-trailer. Now, from a tri-axle, you have that
16 weight that's going to be --- you're not going to have that
17 span, right, so I can understand some of that. But it gets
18 more as you get into more technical questions with axle weight.
19 And I'll cut back, I'll stop now, but thank you very much.
20 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Thank you. Representative Kortz.
21 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
22 To follow up on what Representative Heffley was
23 talking about, I see it all the time that you just stop on the
24 bridge because of construction. You see the trucks are
25 piggy-backed. I mean, you could have four, five, six, seven in
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 79
1 a row.
2 So I guess my question is this. What's the
3 difference if you have two 80,000-pound loads piggy-backed and
4 what's --- 70 feet, 75 feet of truck and trailer, and you have
5 a tow truck pulling one? Okay. So in the same distance you
6 have a load bearing of 160,000 pounds in the same distance.
7 What's the difference? It's the same weight, same distance.
8 MR. HEDGE: I'll say we'll have to find the answer
9 to that question because I'm not a bridge engineer. And I
10 understand what you're saying, but I know that there is an
11 answer to that question. I just don't have it because I'm not
12 a bridge engineer.
13 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: The answer might be the
14 load's spread out further, okay, but these trucks are butted up
15 against each other and they're stopped. I see it all the time.
16 MR. HEDGE: And that's part of the analysis. A lot
17 of times part of your --- part of your permit is the
18 restriction that says you have to crawl speed, which is go less
19 than ten miles per year.
20 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: Okay.
21 MR. HEDGE: There's certain conditions that we could
22 put on a permit after they do the analysis to make sure that
23 it's safe for them to be over there.
24 One is --- another restriction is that you're the
25 only one that's allowed to travel over that bridge, so you
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 80
1 would --- you'd have to have traffic control to make sure
2 nobody else was on that bridge as you went over it. But again,
3 under the --- the way that the current legislation is written,
4 we're not allowed to make those ---.
5 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: This is obviously one of those
6 issues we're going to have flesh out in additional stakeholder
7 meetings and come to basically more details on how to stop this
8 issue.
9 MR. PENTO: And again, you know, express again our
10 willingness to work with stakeholders ---
11 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Right. And you have ---.
12 MR. PENTO: --- to come up with a workable solution.
13 We're absolutely open to that.
14 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: If I could follow up, Mr.
15 Chair? PennDOT has tow truck drivers now. You guys have them
16 right now in the Squirrel Hill Tunnel in Pittsburgh, Fort Pitt
17 Tunnel on the bridge, right, and the Liberty Bridge? You ---
18 PennDOT has --- you have your own tow truck drivers. One of my
19 neighbors is one of them, ---
20 MR. PENTO: Sure.
21 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: --- so I know what's going on
22 there. So if you have a tractor-trailer break down in your
23 tunnel, you're going to get that out of there.
24 Right?
25 You're going to do whatever you have to do to get it
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 81
1 out of there, even if exceeds it.
2 Now, if you're in it, you're in the tunnel, you
3 could go onto the bridge, you could go onto the Liberty Bridge
4 to get this load. Are you going to leave it there or are you
5 going to go get that load and get it off of there?
6 MR. HEDGE: I would think that if you were going to
7 have a high potential of crashing that bridge, that they'd
8 figure out another way to do it than tow it over that bridge.
9 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: So right now it's just get it
10 off that bridge as soon as possible.
11 MR. HEDGE: It's probably because they ---.
12 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: The Liberty Bridge I do know
13 has been compromised.
14 MR. HEDGE: Sure. Sure.
15 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: But all I'm saying is there's
16 issues now and every case is a little bit different. And I
17 think we need to work with these guys because what's the
18 alternative if they go away? If all the tow truck drivers say
19 we're not going to be in the business anymore, PennDOT would
20 have to put tow truck drivers out there like they do at these
21 tunnels. All I'm saying is we got to work with these guys,
22 take it easy on them and their business. I understand where
23 you're coming from, safety, I get that, but I think we need to
24 work with these folks. That's all.
25 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Yep. Thank you. I agree.
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1 Representative Day, ready?
2 REPRESENTATIVE DAY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
3 I want to thank you for your testimony today.
4 Before I joined the legislature, we had a big bridge out in the
5 midwest that fell down about maybe 12 to 14 years ago. It's
6 something that's important and on my mind since the day I
7 joined the legislature.
8 I rely on the traffic engineers to handle a lot of
9 what we're talking about here today, so I want to keep you in
10 the process as best as possible. I think you understand the
11 process as well. But I also understand what the bill is trying
12 to do.
13 What I would like to see, if it's possible, could
14 you guys provide later to the Chairmen, to all the Chairmen, a
15 flowchart on how this whole process is from your vantage point?
16 You might get a box in your flowchart that says then the State
17 Police does something. And you might not know what they do,
18 how they do it, but just say that's where that is and then
19 explain where you are and how this bill will remove our traffic
20 engineers from the safety process that they're trying to do.
21 Because I'd like to at least understand what that is and
22 address those concerns. But if we're taking our traffic
23 engineers out of the process, I want to know that we're doing
24 that and I want to say here's why I think it's okay.
25 Many of my colleagues here have great experience
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 83
1 with this. I think anything I say has nothing to do against
2 anything that was said. It's just for me, what I want to
3 inject into the process, is I want our traffic engineer --- I'm
4 going to come down hard when these bridges fall down, so I give
5 you all the responsibility. I want to keep the authority with
6 you as well. So if you believe --- your team believes that
7 this will jeopardize safety, I want to know --- out of the
8 process so that then we don't come back and hold you liable for
9 things like this. I don't think this process --- it might not
10 occur. The chance of it occurring might not happen, but I do
11 want to know that.
12 My colleague, Representative Saccone, talked about
13 permitting fees. And I don't know --- but it made me think I
14 wanted to know the answer to this question today. Do the
15 permitting fees include a calculation for degradation?
16 MR. HEDGE: No.
17 REPRESENTATIVE DAY: They don't. Just for the
18 government service of issuing the permit?
19 MR. HEDGE: Right.
20 REPRESENTATIVE DAY: So would there ever be thoughts
21 to accepting a fee for the degradation that would be ---
22 because they still call into you if they're allowed to go over
23 the amount that can be calculated, that it takes away from the
24 integrity of the structure over a 20-year span? Instead of
25 being a bridge that might have 20 --- if 20 times a tow truck
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 84
1 goes over it, if they're doing this for 19 years, I know that's
2 a variable, but if that would happen, could we calculate a fee
3 that would be associated with and attached to a permit for
4 these tow truck companies? And you don't have to answer that
5 today, but if you could get that answer later.
6 But Mr. Chairman, thank you for the time.
7 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Thank you.
8 REPRESENTATIVE DAY: I might not always be the most
9 brief with my questions.
10 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Thank you.
11 All right. Representative Saccone for a follow-up
12 question, than we're going to move on to our next panel.
13 REPRESENTATIVE SACCONE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
14 So to be fair to PennDOT, my colleague,
15 Representative Heffley, said, you know, whether you're going 10
16 miles or 75 miles, it's the same safety precaution. But I
17 think what you're saying, to be fair to you, but it's not the
18 same because if you're going 75 miles you might be going over a
19 number of other bridges that might not be structurally --- the
20 integrity might not be structurally sound to carry them. So
21 you're just increasing the chances that you might have a
22 problem.
23 Having said that, so I did a little research, and
24 you can correct me if I'm wrong, but --- because I think the
25 Committee needs to know this. When we're talking about
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 85
1 structurally deficient bridges, PennDOT says that there's nine
2 classifications, nine categories of structural deficiency. So
3 a brand-new bridge --- I forget what's the highest now, nine or
4 one, which one's supposed to be worse. It's a brand-new
5 bridge. I'm just going to --- a brand-new bridge gets a one
6 rating when it's brand new, but you know --- and it gets a two
7 because it needs --- you know, needs some paint, might have
8 some rust, but it gets a three, but it's not actually in danger
9 of any collapse or any --- actually the bridge causing any
10 damage to the vehicles passing over it, so it gets up to like a
11 six or a seven. But because every bridge has some level
12 attached to it, even a bridge has a two, even a brand-new
13 bridge has a one, you can say it's structurally deficient, it
14 gets included in that number that we said we have structurally
15 deficient bridges. So they're not just calculating the bridges
16 that are ready to collapse. That would be a totally different
17 number. Am I right so far?
18 MR. PENTO: That's correct.
19 REPRESENTATIVE SACCONE: Okay.
20 So I just want --- I think the Committee needs to
21 know that. So when we bandy about figures that we have so many
22 structurally deficient bridges, that doesn't mean they're all
23 ready to collapse. That means they're in various stages of
24 degradation. That's being calculated as bridges are inspected
25 throughout the --- so again, my point is, as some of the other
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 86
1 members have said, these bridges are calculated to take numbers
2 --- the numbers of trucks going over them both ways, some of
3 them very close, as I said in my original comment, right behind
4 each other. And even if it's a small bridge or if it's a big
5 bridge, even if it's --- and I got a lot in my area. I have a
6 lot of over area in my district. There's a lot of small
7 bridges there, maybe, you know, a hundred feet long or so,
8 they're still calculated to have --- there could be two trucks
9 going over them at the same time. And whether they're right
10 behind each other and some coming the other way, they're still
11 calculated to hold that load. And whether one's towing the
12 other or not, it's not going to make any difference as was the
13 previous testimony that we had.
14 So I don't see --- I'm not against using your
15 system. I think it's a good idea as long as it --- as long as
16 it's timely so they can check on that so we know if they're
17 going to go a long way that they don't go over bridges that are
18 --- it can't hold the load. I just don't see any problem with
19 them towing --- towing a vehicle over one of these bridges. I
20 don't think it's adding much to the weight that's much
21 different than one truck behind another and trucks coming the
22 other way. Am I wrong with that?
23 MR. PENTO: Well, I think we recognize and certainly
24 appreciate the aspect of safety for the tow truck operators,
25 and that absolutely has to be foremost and getting that ---
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 87
1 getting that towed vehicle to a place of safety absolutely ---
2 recognize that may involve going over --- going over one or
3 more bridges.
4 I guess our point is we want --- we want --- as part
5 of what we want to do, look to --- look to keep that only to
6 the distance that it absolutely must be to get to that place of
7 safety. And so there's that --- like you said, that concern of
8 raising it up to 75 miles. It's just more opportunity that
9 there could be going over bridges that are posted that there
10 would be those types of concerns.
11 But yeah, everything you said, other than structural
12 ratings --- nine is excellent and zero ir worst.
13 REPRESENTATIVE SACCONE: Okay.
14 MR. PENTO: Other than that, you're a hundred
15 percent right. But yeah, that --- I think that's the concern
16 in a nutshell, as you summarized it, is we recognize there may
17 be instances to get to that initial place of safety you may
18 have to cross a bridge, but we want --- we want to --- we want
19 to encourage that to be only as long as it absolutely has to
20 be. And again, we'd like the --- like the opportunity to work
21 with industry to find a way to --- if there's some
22 clarifications or a better means to do that, we're certainly
23 open to work with the industry on options, so ---.
24 REPRESENTATIVE SACCONE: Thank you very much.
25 MR. PENTO: Sure.
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 88
1 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Thank you. And thank you for
2 being here today and your excellent testimony.
3 MR. PENTO: Thank you.
4 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Appreciate it.
5 MR. PENTO: Appreciate it. Thank you, gentlemen.
6 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Okay.
7 Our next panel is Ms. Amanda Henry, Executive
8 Director for the Alliance of Automotive Service Providers of
9 Pennsylvania. You guys want to come up here? I think we have
10 enough seats for all of you.
11 Okay. Also with Amanda is Mr. Ken Lenhart of
12 Lenhart Service Center, North Huntingdon, Pennsylvania; Mr.
13 Mike Hippensteel ---.
14 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: That's correct.
15 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Did I say that right?
16 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: Yes.
17 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Great. I like that name.
18 Hippensteel Automotive, Inc., in Newville, Pennsylvania; and
19 Mr. Jeff Walter, Zimmerman's Automotive Service, Mechanicsburg.
20 Thank you, gentlemen, for --- and ladies for being here today,
21 and you can begin your testimony when you're ready.
22 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: I want to thank you for Chair
23 Barrar, Sainato, Schlegel-Culver and Keller and members of the
24 Committee for the opportunity today to speak on House Bill 1414
25 and share our experiences with you to discuss how to make our
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 89
1 job safer as tow operators.
2 Further, we greatly appreciate the new bill passed
3 providing for stricter penalties to the move-after law.
4 However, it is important to realize that this is just one piece
5 of the puzzle in keeping everyone safe. Again, my name is Mike
6 Hippensteel, my family has owned and operated Hippensteel Auto
7 in Newville, Pennsylvania, Cumberland County, for over 48
8 years.
9 AASP of Pennsylvania is a trade association
10 representing over 1,000 independent mechanical, collision and
11 towing businesses across the state. We are here to testify in
12 strong support of House Bill 1414, which would allow use ---
13 which would allow limited use of red lights by towing vehicles,
14 attending to vehicular accident and recovery incidences ---
15 incidents.
16 AASP of Pennsylvania is very appreciative to
17 Chairman Barrar for introducing this legislation that addresses
18 a very serious safety concern in the Commonwealth. This bill
19 would allow operators of towing vehicles the option of
20 incorporating red lights to bee included in the currently
21 authorized amber light displays. The use of these red lights
22 would be limited to towing vehicles called to accident scenes
23 or other incidents through 911 calls or police dispatch and at
24 the site of retrieving abandoned or disabled vehicles along the
25 right-of-way. There are serious penalties in this legislation
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 90
1 for use of the red lights outside the perimeters expressed in
2 this bill.
3 Towers are proud to serve in partnership at accident
4 scenes with state and local police, fire departments and
5 ambulance companies. This is dangerous work for all involved.
6 This bill would provide parity for our part of the team in
7 regard to safety and visibility and for the motoring public.
8 It is estimated that a tow truck operator is killed
9 weekly while working alongside the road. Unfortunately, that
10 statistic and others like it are not concrete, as they are
11 difficult to compile based on towers not being considered
12 emergency responders.
13 Towers are often at accident scenes with emergency
14 vehicles. However, they are not considered an emergency
15 vehicle as well. Instead, tow trucks are classified as
16 authorized vehicles.
17 Typically, at an accident scene the following are
18 onsite, an ambulance, fire rescue, police and a tow operator.
19 Ambulances are obviously the first to leave the scene, with
20 fire rescue leaving shortly after. At that point, all that are
21 left on the scene are the police and the tower. However, if
22 the police officer has to leave to go to the hospital or take
23 someone to their station, which oftentimes happens, the tower
24 is on their own for vehicle recovery. The towers are still
25 part of the emergency response effort, but only with amber
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 91
1 lights. It is difficult for drivers on the road to understand
2 the important of the tow operator's role and appreciate the
3 danger that towers are in.
4 Another set of red lights reinforces to others that
5 there is an accident and they should slow down and/or move
6 over. That is why we feel that red lights would help in the
7 safety of towers.
8 Again, I want to thank Representative Barrar and
9 others here today for giving us the opportunity to share our
10 experiences with you.
11 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Thank you. Questions from the
12 members? Do you have a question?
13 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: We have ---.
14 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Okay.
15 Representative Kortz?
16 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: I was going to say we have some
17 video that we would like you to see.
18 REPRESENTATIVE CULVER: Oh, okay.
19 MR. WALTER: It's going to behind you,
20 unfortunately.
21 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: Yeah, it's going to be ---.
22 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: We can turn around.
23 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: I don't know if somebody has ---.
24 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Are you ready for it? Feel free
25 to get up if you need to take a stretch or ---.
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 92
1 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: Just to explain, this specific
2 place is Interstate 81 northbound, approximately milepost 58,
3 at a construction zone. I'm not sure what's going on here.
4 This vehicle was broken down in an emergency
5 pull-over area.
6 MR. WALTER: Boy, it's moving real slow.
7 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: Yeah, it seems like it's not
8 loading. It was working earlier.
9 MR. WALTER: Maybe because it was asleep it's ---.
10 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: I'll let you know that the posted
11 speed limit was 55 at this construction zone, but I don't
12 believe anybody was going the speed limit.
13 MR. WALTER: Can't tell. It's just not moving.
14 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: That's unfortunate.
15 MR. WALTER: That just shows that even though you
16 test it, it doesn't work.
17 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: Well, if we eventually get over to
18 the side here you'll see that --- you'll see vehicles that are
19 not moving over. Unfortunately, what you can't see is the
20 speed and the closeness to the fog line.
21 REPRESENTATIVE JAMES: Can I ask you a quick
22 question, Mr. Hippensteel? Is this 81?
23 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: It is, Interstate 81 northbound,
24 milepost 58.
25 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Would you mind while this is going
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 93
1 maybe if we could get a couple questions in?
2 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: Absolutely. Maybe we can just
3 pause it and maybe it will ---.
4 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Okay.
5 Representative James?
6 REPRESENTATIVE JAMES: Mr. Hippensteel, ---
7 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: Yes.
8 REPRESENTATIVE JAMES: --- just to set the tone,
9 because this feels like it might be an easy vote for us, what
10 was the original intent restricting the towing vehicle to the
11 yellow light only, why not the red light, since the beginning?
12 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: I don't have an answer for that.
13 I don't know if anybody else --- I can't speak as to why they
14 chose amber lights for authorized vehicles. I do know that
15 only authorized vehicles are snow plows, state trucks and
16 vehicles --- unfortunately, landscapers are now starting to use
17 the lights as well, the amber lights.
18 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: But giving you the red light does
19 not allow you to run red lights and everything else.
20 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: No. That's not what we're ---
21 that's not what we're asking for.
22 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: The concern that I heard expressed
23 by a lot of members ---
24 MR. WALTER: Scene only.
25 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: --- is that if we give you the red
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 94
1 light, that you're going to --- that the tow trucks are going
2 to take it as an authorization to run traffic signals and stop
3 signs and ---.
4 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: No. We're not --- we're not
5 asking for people to yield to us.
6 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Right.
7 MR. WALTER: Scene only.
8 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: And I think that's an important
9 point to remember. It's not giving you that authority ---
10 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: That's correct.
11 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: --- as a fire truck would
12 have, ---
13 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: That's correct.
14 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: --- even though it identifies you
15 as an emergency vehicle.
16 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: That's correct.
17 MR. WALTER: I think we identified that in the bill
18 as scene only.
19 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: Actually, we do not want them
20 riding with the lights on.
21 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: That's where I thought you wanted
22 to go.
23 Representative Kortz?
24 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
25 The red lights, would you use these only when you're
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 95
1 stopped, picking up the tow? You wouldn't use these driving
2 to?
3 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: No. They would only be on scene
4 only, not en route or back while hauling.
5 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: Is there any other states
6 that allow for this?
7 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: Yes. Texas is a state that
8 allows. I believe Arizona, Missouri, and I believe West
9 Virginia. There's a few other ones, too, as well.
10 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: Okay.
11 Do you have any data after they passed that law
12 allowing for red lights where the number of fatalities of tow
13 truck drivers have gone down? Has that been documented?
14 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: I don't think there is any data
15 because, unfortunately with tow operators, they don't --- they
16 don't consider us emergency personnel, so they just consider it
17 a roadside death.
18 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: Thank you. Thank you.
19 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Right. I think that's a pretty
20 good example.
21 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: I have another video, too.
22 MR. WALTER: You might want to stop this.
23 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: Yeah, if we could stop this one.
24 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Any of the other members have ---
25 want to ask questions while we're ---
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 96
1 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: It will be the second one from the
2 bottom.
3 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: --- changing the video?
4 REPRESENTATIVE DAY: I will.
5 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Representative Day?
6 REPRESENTATIVE DAY: Just about the light, do I
7 understand correctly this would move toward you'd be using the
8 yellow and red together?
9 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: That's correct, as a combination.
10 REPRESENTATIVE DAY: And only under the --- only
11 under the circumstances of the removal ---
12 MR. WALTER: Yes.
13 REPRESENTATIVE DAY: --- of vehicles?
14 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: That's correct.
15 REPRESENTATIVE DAY: Some of the things I would have
16 as a concern is what's the difference between blue, red,
17 yellow, blue and red, red and yellow, you know, what you can
18 and can't do with that.
19 Mostly I think --- the way I understand is yellow
20 and red will signify that there's an emergency operation,
21 right, and then the public would know by lights to move out of
22 the way, if there's a line of traffic you have to let them try
23 to get through. Is that what red brings you as well?
24 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: That's --- that's what we're
25 looking for, yes, that red is emergency.
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 97
1 As far as the Steer Clear Law now states, we are
2 considered emergency service providers, that we're classified
3 under that, but we don't have the lights.
4 REPRESENTATIVE DAY: Can you explain --- can you
5 explain --- I think if I was a viewer watching, you know, this
6 I would want to know what's the big deal, what's the big
7 difference. If a tow truck comes behind me with yellow lights
8 or yellow and red lights, I get it, I understand they have to
9 get by me. Can you answer the question what do you think the
10 red lights bring you to be --- is it for safety or does it
11 bring your right-of-way to get to an accident ---?
12 MR. LENHART: If you don't mind, if I can answer
13 that.
14 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: Kenneth?
15 MR. LENHART: So I'd like to answer that. First of
16 all, as we shared earlier, every --- every vehicle runs amber
17 lights now. And typically, I think the perception of running
18 amber lights is that vehicle is running down the highway,
19 whether it be in a utility truck, whether it be in a --- again,
20 a salt truck or something like that. The perception is that
21 that truck is --- that vehicle is moving. With the red lights
22 the perception is that that vehicle is stopped.
23 There's been some studies and red is the most, even
24 over blue, that sort of drives, you know, people away from the
25 vehicle and things like that. So as you've seen the video
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 98
1 there, there's a lot of cases there where clearly the trucks
2 had the room to --- to make the --- to get --- to move over and
3 ignores us. So we're actually a lot of times laying on that
4 fog line to hook up the car.
5 My personal experience, I had to --- in my younger
6 days, I couldn't do it today because I'm about 80 pounds
7 heavier, I had to jump on the hood of a car to keep from
8 getting hit. A school bus actually come up and took the mirror
9 off my truck, so you know --- and we're actually --- you know,
10 we're not always focused on the highway. We're actually
11 underneath the car, laying on the side of the highway, and a
12 lot of times we don't have the police there. We're --- I tow
13 for a lot of dealers, along with the police, so we're picking
14 cars up off the parkway in Pittsburgh or on the turnpike. As
15 you seen, we're up against guardrails where there's virtually
16 no room. So we're laying underneath those cars without any
17 protection and people tend not to move over for us. That's why
18 we're here.
19 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: That video that you just saw,
20 that's an instance where I was dispatched by the police
21 department, but unfortunately the police department could not
22 be there. They had to attend to another call. So that's what
23 we're faced with.
24 REPRESENTATIVE NEILSON: Mr. Chairman?
25 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Yes, Mr. Neilson?
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 99
1 REPRESENTATIVE NEILSON: Is there anything that
2 prevents you from putting out flares 30 feet down the road or
3 10 feet down the road?
4 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: Absolutely not. We're permitted
5 to use red flares.
6 REPRESENTATIVE NEILSON: So I mean as safety you
7 just said you were crawling under the car --- if it were me
8 crawling under the car, I can throw my flares out a little bit
9 to give me some space. I didn't see that in the video or
10 anything like that. But there's nothing to prevent you from
11 throwing out flares?
12 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: No, there's no. And most times we
13 do use flares, cones, other --- other safety devices as well.
14 REPRESENTATIVE NEILSON: You talked about utility
15 trucks a little bit. And in recent years we've seen utility
16 trucks that are working on utilities, and every time they get
17 in or out of their truck they have to put a cone out. And I
18 know that's not part of the law. Would you be against us
19 amending the law to make that kind of stuff happen, to make
20 certain that you build your own barrier so people can slow
21 down?
22 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: I have no opposition to that, but
23 I think most towers --- I carry cones. I carry flares. We ---
24 if we feel that it's in a dangerous situation, yes, we will ---
25 we will use those.
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 100
1 REPRESENTATIVE NEILSON: I have nothing further.
2 Thank you, chairman.
3 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Okay. Thank you.
4 Representative Saccone?
5 REPRESENTATIVE SACCONE: Yes. So some people have
6 an objection maybe to abuse of these lights. That's why ---
7 that's the biggest problem.
8 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: Yes.
9 REPRESENTATIVE SACCONE: And I don't think in this
10 law there's any --- I don't know what the limitation is, if
11 there's any, but would you have any objection to if we had a
12 limitation that said, okay, you can be using the lights, but
13 you can only use them when you're in that situation, you can't
14 use them when you're driving down the road, you can't use them
15 when you're actually towing, especially if it's on one of those
16 rollbacks, you can't use it then, ---
17 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: Absolutely.
18 REPRESENTATIVE SACCONE: --- you can only use it in
19 this very narrowly-defined circumstance? Are you all right
20 with that?
21 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: Absolutely.
22 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: And that's --- that's exactly what
23 we're trying to do, is narrow it down. Like I said, Ed asked a
24 question earlier, it doesn't give them the authority to run red
25 lights. They can't on the --- they can't fly through traffic
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 101
1 signals and red lights, you know, on the way to a scene because
2 --- to an accident because they have the red light.
3 REPRESENTATIVE SACCONE: What about actually when
4 you're towing? So you pick up the vehicle now ---.
5 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: We ---.
6 REPRESENTATIVE SACCONE: Because one of the
7 complaints is, even with the yellow lights, you're towing down
8 the road and you're running your yellow lights.
9 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: You don't --- you don't need to
10 run yellow lights while you're towing.
11 REPRESENTATIVE SACCONE: But people do.
12 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: But people do.
13 REPRESENTATIVE SACCONE: That makes people immune to
14 the lights ---
15 MR. WALTER: That's right.
16 REPRESENTATIVE SACCONE: --- because it's overused.
17 MR. WALTER: That's correct.
18 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: It is.
19 REPRESENTATIVE SACCONE: So if we included that, Mr.
20 Chairman, also that when you're in towing you shouldn't be
21 having the lights on either.
22 MR. WALTER: I think it's already written.
23 REPRESENTATIVE SACCONE: Is that already in there?
24 MR. WALTER: And we also added substantial fines.
25 And that's up for negotiation. I mean, we don't want the
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 102
1 cowboys either.
2 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: That's exactly what's the concern.
3 MR. WALTER: Right.
4 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: The one thing I would --- Amanda,
5 I would suggest is maybe to sit down with the Pennsylvania
6 Towing Association. They were totally unaware of this bill,
7 okay, so you may want to try to join forces with them to bring
8 them onboard to --- I think they're going to remain neutral on
9 this, but I think you have an opportunity to reach out to them
10 and go over the bill with them.
11 Okay? Great.
12 Are there any other questions from members?
13 Representative Tallman? Sorry, I missed it.
14 REPRESENTATIVE TALLMAN: So the first question is
15 for Mr. Hippensteel. Do you get to the turnpike?
16 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: I do not tow along the turnpike.
17 REPRESENTATIVE TALLMAN: You do not?
18 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: I do not.
19 REPRESENTATIVE TALLMAN: It's close.
20 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: It is.
21 REPRESENTATIVE TALLMAN: I know where you're at.
22 Don't ever pick me up.
23 So I think you mentioned you do turnpike.
24 MR. LENHART: I tow for a number of different
25 dealerships and their client base. If they're broke d own on a
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 103
1 turnpike, yes, I'm on the turnpike, not for --- not for
2 accidents. I'm not called by the police, but if it's a private
3 individual who's on the pike. So yes.
4 REPRESENTATIVE TALLMAN: Is anybody here turnpike?
5 MR. WALTER: I'm close, but I do not tow for the
6 turnpike.
7 REPRESENTATIVE TALLMAN: Okay.
8 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: They're contract.
9 REPRESENTATIVE TALLMAN: You have to have a
10 contract?
11 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: For the turnpike, yes.
12 REPRESENTATIVE TALLMAN: I just have concerns about
13 red lights on tow trucks. And whoever said it in here, I don't
14 want you barrelling through the red light. I don't want you
15 going around cars. I don't want you doing any of that, and I'm
16 the working responder. And so I just don't see the need for a
17 tow truck to get to an accident scene, unless they have traffic
18 using that --- how it's dispatched to use your truck to pull a
19 car over or something. But anyways, I just don't see a need
20 for a red light.
21 MR. LENHART: But if I may respond to that? The
22 people on this panel, we don't feel a need to run the amber
23 lights while you're traveling. If your vehicle is tied down
24 properly, it's just like any other freight. So unless there's
25 a vehicle --- and I've been on some scenes where the car is
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1 ripped in half and it's --- you can't secure it properly or
2 something like that, there are times where we'll tow it to our
3 impound lot with the lights on. But my drivers are told when
4 they're en route going to the vehicle or back from --- they're
5 hauling the vehicle back, they're not to run their lights.
6 I would like to see, and I think it's in the
7 legislation, to even set the amber lights off. I'm against
8 running the amber lights while the vehicle is traveling.
9 There's no need for it. And especially for the red lights,
10 there's no need for it.
11 My concern and I think our concern here is for our
12 safety when we're stopped. When we're stopped and there's no
13 police involved or anything like that, we need people to move
14 over. And they tend not to move over with the amber lights.
15 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: Motorists have become numb.
16 That's what we call it, numb, to amber lights. When we're
17 along the roadway, they could care less. They don't see it as
18 an emergency situation.
19 But I think Representative Lawrence can state how he
20 felt. I don't --- would you classify that as an emergency when
21 you were along the roadway?
22 REPRESENTATIVE LAWRENCE: It was.
23 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Any other questions? Okay.
24 Thank you for your testimony today.
25 MR. HIPPENSTEEL: Thank you.
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1 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: We appreciate you being here.
2 Our next panel is actually a panel of one. But he's
3 so powerful, he didn't need the rest of the panel with him. So
4 Lieutenant Brian Ianuzzi. Brian, thank you for being here
5 today.
6 LIEUTENANT IANUZZI: Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
7 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: You can begin your testimony
8 whenever you're ready.
9 LIEUTENANT IANUZZI: Good afternoon to the
10 Chairpersons and to the rest of the Committee members. As
11 Representative Barrar stated, I'm Brian Ianuzzi. I'm a
12 Lieutenant in Bureau Patrol, Director of the Safety Program
13 Division, and I oversee the towing for the --- towing
14 regulations for the Pennsylvania State Police.
15 I'm pleased to provide testimony concerning the
16 proposed legislation to amend Title 75 of the Vehicle Code,
17 Section 4572, to authorize the placement of emergency red
18 lighting on tow trucks.
19 Highway safety has always been and continues to be a
20 priority of the Pennsylvania State Police. And in working
21 towards this goal it's the objective of the PSP to ensure the
22 safety of the motoring public and to render assistance to
23 anyone in need in a timely, efficient, safe manner.
24 When a traffic crash or other highway incident
25 occurs, police, fire and other emergency medical personnel are
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1 routinely dispatched to the scene. While each of these first
2 responding agencies has a separate and distinct function, their
3 single most important priority is life safety.
4 Recognizing that life safety is the highest priority
5 for these highly-trained individuals, the law provides legal
6 authority for the use of red lights and sirens on their
7 vehicles to expedite their response to a scene and perform
8 their life-saving work.
9 While tow trucks are often summoned to assist at
10 crash scenes, the role they perform is significantly different
11 from first responders responsible for life safety. Although a
12 tow truck is essential to restoring the flow of traffic, it is
13 secondary to the rescue operations, the rendering of medical
14 assistance and the investigation of the crash. This
15 distinction is very noteworthy. Certainly the timely arrival
16 of a tow truck to the scene is beneficial; however, it does not
17 rise to the same critical level as the expeditious arrival of
18 first responders because of the nature of their work.
19 This distinction has long been recognized by the
20 legislators as tow trucks are not classified as emergency
21 vehicles. And this bill would conflict with the position ---
22 provisions under Title 75 of the Vehicle Code, the regulations
23 under Title 67, as well as Title 37, which authorizes the
24 display of emergency red lights only on emergency vehicles.
25 With public and first responders' safety in mind,
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1 the Pennsylvania State Police cannot support this bill or
2 amendment. Since a tow truck is not an emergency vehicle as
3 defined under the Vehicle Code and, therefore, is not
4 authorized to display emergency red lights, this amendment
5 would unnecessarily blur the already clear distinction between
6 emergency vehicles and authorized vehicles.
7 Established law clearly defines the display, use and
8 use requirements for these two separate types of lighting
9 equipment as well as the entities approved to use them.
10 Moreover, the motoring public is aware of the distinctions
11 between the authorized vehicles displaying yellow lights and
12 emergency vehicles approved to use emergency red lights. In
13 very plain terms motorists recognize the authority conveyed by
14 the different colored lights and, more importantly, are aware
15 how to respond when encountering an emergency vehicle utilizing
16 red lights.
17 The proposal to approve emergency red lights in
18 combination with yellow lights on a tow truck would create a
19 hybrid lighting configuration to which the public is not
20 accustomed. The manner of the lighting could be potentially
21 confusing to motorists and create and unnecessary public safety
22 issue. It is, therefore, the opinion of PSP that this
23 amendment does not enhance the overall safety of the motoring
24 public or, more importantly, for tow truck operators.
25 It should be noted that towing and recovery
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1 personnel performing work at the scene of a crash and along the
2 road are currently afforded protection under Section 3327 of
3 the Vehicle Code relating to the duty of a driver in an
4 emergency response area, which requires a motorist to move
5 over, when feasible, when passing the emergency response area.
6 This is the same protection that is provided to the first
7 responders that have red lights.
8 Additionally, while the law currently authorizes
9 emergency red lights for use by volunteer firemen on their
10 personal vehicles and those vehicles that are designated as
11 emergency vehicles by the Pennsylvania State Police under
12 Section 6106 of the Vehicle Code, they are required by law to
13 be tracked. This amendment lacks a requirement a requirement
14 to track vehicles and/or operators that will be authorized to
15 use or display emergency red lights.
16 PSP believes there's a potential for harm if this
17 legislation were enacted. The amendment could cause confusion
18 over the clear distinction between an emergency vehicle and an
19 authorized vehicle and yielding no benefit to the public or
20 highway safety.
21 And as far as House Bill 1678, the Pennsylvania
22 State Police stand behind our counterparts at PennDOT in
23 opposition to that bill.
24 Again, I appreciate the opportunity to testify here
25 in front of everyone and can answer --- try to answer some of
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1 your questions.
2 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Thank you.
3 Representative Jozwiak? And Hill-Evans after that.
4 REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: Thank you again for being
5 here. Thank you for your testimony.
6 LIEUTENANT IANUZZI: Thank you, sir.
7 REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: I just have two basic
8 questions. An emergency vehicle versus an authorized vehicle,
9 why isn't a tow truck considered an emergency vehicle?
10 LIEUTENANT IANUZZI: It's by law. There's
11 definitions and Section 102 of the Vehicle Code clearly
12 designated the definition and the entities that are to be
13 considered an emergency vehicle. And it also clearly
14 identifies the vehicles that can use amber lights or that are
15 authorized vehicles.
16 REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: The other question I have
17 is I've been hearing a lot of questions about tow truck
18 operators in other states. Do we regulate tow truck operators
19 in Pennsylvania anyway and do other states regulate them?
20 LIEUTENANT IANUZZI: Yes. Pennsylvania has a
21 two-page Towing Act that does relatively little to regulate the
22 industry at all.
23 The gentleman mentioned Texas. Texas has a very
24 robust regulation as far as towing goes, so I could see how ---
25 it's a regulated industry, so I could see how they gave them
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1 that power because they regulate that industry. So to that
2 point, sir, we don't regulate it very much here in
3 Pennsylvania.
4 REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: So giving them lights and
5 other --- in and out unregulated rules?
6 LIEUTENANT IANUZZI: Correct. And I will --- if I
7 could share a personal experience?
8 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Please.
9 LIEUTENANT IANUZZI: Friday --- I commute from
10 Altoona to Harrisburg every day. And on my way home Friday, on
11 Interstate 99, I came across a disabled vehicle. I didn't hear
12 the local barracks getting dispatched, so myself and Trooper
13 Harvey arrived at the same time. And as we were trying to
14 change a tire, the left --- it'd be the left rear tire, right
15 along the fog line, similar to what you showed there, we have a
16 flare pattern set up, a marked State Police vehicle about a
17 hundred and --- a hundred yards behind us, my unmarked vehicle
18 maybe 25 yards behind us, and we continually got buzzed. Just
19 as you saw in those videos, the same thing happened to us and I
20 have a marked State Police car, red and blue lights. People
21 just aren't moving over for the law.
22 They are, to an extent, light immune. So regardless
23 of what color the lights are, it is an issue with the
24 enforcement of that section. It is tough because I wanted to
25 go chase after those people that were buzzing us. I got one
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1 tractor and trailer, but --- because we were done, but how
2 could I leave Trooper Harvey and myself --- we were taking
3 turns changing the tire and the other one playing lookout. So
4 how could I leave my fellow trooper there along the side of a
5 road. So my point in telling you that story is we are in the
6 same --- and along with the firemen, we are in the same boat as
7 the tow --- tow agencies. Unfortunately, the motorists are
8 light immune and don't heed the law.
9 REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
10 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Great.
11 Represent Hill-Evans?
12 REPRESENTATIVE HILL-EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
13 My comment is just a comment ---
14 LIEUTENANT IANUZZI : Yes , ma ' am .
15 REPRESENTATIVE HILL-EVANS: --- more than whether
16 I'm opposed or in favor of. But in your testimony you say that
17 the motoring public is aware of the distinction. And I would
18 respectfully disagree with that. I think a lot of folks are
19 not aware.
20 Unfortunately, we can't regulate common sense. You
21 would think that if you see something happening on the side you
22 would try to get away from it. That doesn't always happen. So
23 I think it would be incumbent on us, as legislators, and
24 everyone else that's involved in this to make sure that the
25 public is aware, whatever that takes, so that these kind of
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1 things don't happen and we don't have to regulate it. That's
2 all. Thank you.
3 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Thank you.
4 Representative Saccone?
5 REPRESENTATIVE SACCONE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
6 Thank you for your testimony.
7 LIEUTENANT IANUZZI: Yes, sir.
8 REPRESENTATIVE SACCONE: I am concerned about the
9 proliferation of these lights, red lights, and the abuse, as I
10 said, if we give it to tow truck driving, utilities. It's just
11 going to keep going on and on and on. But I am concerned about
12 the safety of these drivers. And we can do the flares, the
13 cones, I understand that. What about rather than allowing them
14 to be permanent fixtures on a vehicle, what if we allowed them
15 to have portable red lights that they could put out, maybe even
16 run off --- a line off their cigarette lighter in their truck
17 or whatever? So it would be used just at that scene. It's not
18 used when they're moving to and fro so that there's a less of a
19 chance of abuse. Would the State Police be all right with
20 that?
21 LIEUTENANT IANUZZI: I don't think so, sir, just
22 because of my last personal story that I spoke to you, is the
23 lights, colors, are kind of mute to everyone.
24 I think back to the other Representative's comment
25 about public knowledge. They need to understand that it's not
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1 --- the law --- they are protected under the law as long as we
2 meet certain things, there's some flares and some type of
3 warning device up there. We can cite for that. So I think the
4 emphasis should best be on a little --- teaching up the public
5 a little bit on what the Move-Over Law is really about.
6 I know PennDOT does Twitter feeds on it. They blast
7 is out every once in a while. We re-Tweet their Tweets through
8 our Twitter account. We're trying to get the message out
9 there, but I think it's more of a little --- getting the public
10 --- word out to the public.
11 REPRESENTATIVE SACCONE: And I think you're right.
12 And yet we do have distinctions in the lights and they are ---
13 I think people do know when they see a red light they
14 automatically think police. They may not think fire, but they
15 worry about the police when you see that red light flashing in
16 your rearview mirror. So I think there is --- at least the
17 public knows what the red light --- so they may not know the
18 difference between an amber light, if it's a blue light, who
19 can use red, blue and maybe it can be different, what needs
20 only blue and those type of things, but I think the red light
21 is --- people know what that means.
22 LIEUTENANT IANUZZI: Yes, sir.
23 REPRESENTATIVE SACCONE: There are going to be
24 people that are going to violate that anyway. I know, I hear
25 what you're saying, but we do have distinctions.
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1 I do think the red light is a safety thing that
2 people will tend to pay attention to. That's why with flares
3 and all that, they'll see all that kind of stuff. So I don't
4 know. I --- again, I worry about these getting --- being
5 abused and getting --- everybody's going to want one. I tend
6 to be inclined to think that the red light would help the
7 safety of those people if they put them out if they're
8 important. That way they don't put them on the truck so that,
9 you know, they couldn't use them when they're not supposed to.
10 But I respect your testimony. Thank you very much.
11 LIEUTENANT IANUZZI: Thank you, sir.
12 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Thank you.
13 Representative Tallman is authorized for one
14 question.
15 REPRESENTATIVE TALLMAN: My question is, and I
16 sympathize with you sitting along the highway, because fire and
17 police can show up at a regular rate. I don't disagree with
18 your comment, there's plenty of --- if I have my blue lights on
19 and I approach the intersection of Pennsylvania Route 94 and
20 234 at the red light, everybody's going to stop. What's Will
21 Tallman going to do? I'm going to drive through the
22 intersection, even if it's red, because otherwise I got a
23 traffic jam. Are you going to cite me?
24 LIEUTENANT IANUZZI: There will be --- there could
25 be an officer out there that would cite you, yes.
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1 REPRESENTATIVE TALLMAN: Well, I understand that.
2 But there is a lot of confusion on the whole gamut of fire
3 trucks versus rescue versus ambulance versus volunteer
4 firefighter. Thank you.
5 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Thank you, Representative Tallman.
6 Any other questions from members? Anybody over
7 there?
8 Let me --- let me --- Brian, let ask you a question.
9 We have met with PennDOT numerous times. PennDOT has expressed
10 a willingness to work with us to find a solution to the big
11 Towing issue on House Bill 1678. And is the State Police
12 willing to sit down and work out a compromise with us on this
13 legislation?
14 LIEUTENANT IANUZZI: Sir, I believe, and I
15 apologize, Lieutenant Croyle could not be here today. He's the
16 Commercial --- Commercial Safety Division --- Commercial
17 Vehicle Safety Division. He has --- and my Major have met with
18 PennDOT and the other stakeholders once and we will meet again,
19 be willing to do so.
20 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Yeah, because we think there's a
21 solution here to, you know, finding the --- I mean, there's no
22 perfect solution, but we can find a solution on the big tow
23 issue and you can see --- I mean, a guy --- a small business
24 owner getting whacked for $30,000 on a situation where he's
25 actually called out to help, it's kind of like punishing the
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1 good samaritan in a sense, so.
2 LIEUTENANT IANUZZI: I agree, sir. And as Mr.
3 Bressler from the Towing Association knows, him and I have a
4 great working relationship. I know that the Pennsylvania State
5 Police would sit down on any towing issue with the legislators
6 to discuss any action that has to do with towing.
7 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Well, thank you for your
8 testimony.
9 LIEUTENANT IANUZZI: Yes, sir.
10 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: We truly appreciate you being here
11 on short notice.
12 LIEUTENANT IANUZZI: No problem.
13 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: It means the world just to have
14 you here.
15 LIEUTENANT IANUZZI: Yes, sir.
16 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: I want to thank all the testifiers
17 today for being here. I'll tell you what, this is an extremely
18 educational hearing. As you can tell, there were tons of great
19 questions.
20 I would ask the members if they would stay around.
21 We're probably going to take a quick walk-about the --- it
22 being in the Fire Training Center. I think the people here
23 want to give us like maybe a quick tour before we head off to
24 lunch and everything.
25 So any of the other Chairmen want to comment in on
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1 closing comments?
2 Chairman Keller?
3 CHAIRMAN KELLER: No. Thank you.
4 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Okay.
5 Thank you, everyone, for being here today.
6 Appreciate it.
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8 MEETING CONCLUDED AT 12:35 P.M.
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2 CERTIFICATE
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4 I hereby certify that the foregoing proceedings,
5 hearing held before Majority Chairman Barrar was reported
6 by me on 8/15/17 and I, Xi Xia, read this transcript and
7 that I attest that this transcript is a true and accurate
8 record of the proceeding.
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