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2 Military Police Complaints Commission 3 4 5 FYNES PUBLIC INTEREST HEARINGS 6 held pursuant to section 250.38(1) of the National Defence 7 Act, in the matter of file 2011-004 8 9 LES AUDIENCES D'INTÉRÊT PUBLIQUE SUR FYNES 10 tenues en vertu du paragraphe 250.38(1) de la Loi sur la 11 défense nationale pour le dossier 2011-004 12 13 14 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS 15 held at 270 Albert St., Ottawa, Ontario 16 on Tuesday, April 17, 2012 17 mardi, le 17 avril 2012 18 19 VOLUME 11 20 21 22BEFORE: 23 24Mr. Glenn Stannard Chairperson 25 26Ms. Raymonde Cléroux Registrar 27 28 29APPEARANCES: 30 31Mr. Mark Freiman Commission counsel 32Mr. Rob Fairchild 33Ms. Genevieve Coutlée 34 35 36Ms Elizabeth Richards For Sgt Jon Bigelow, MWO Ross Tourout, 37Ms Korinda McLaine LCol Gilles Sansterre, WO Blair Hart, PO 2 Eric McLaughlin, 38 Sgt David Mitchell, Sgt Matthew Alan Ritco, Maj Daniel Dandurand, 39 Sgt Scott Shannon, LCol Brian Frei, LCol (ret’d) William H. Garrick 40 WO (ret’d) Sean Der Bonneteau, CWO (ret’d) Barry Watson 41 42Col (ret’d) Michel W. Drapeau For Mr. Shaun Fynes 43Mr. Joshua Juneau and Mrs. Sheila Fynes 44 45 46 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. © 2012 47 48 200 Elgin Street, Suite 1105 333 Bay Street, Suite 49 900 50 Ottawa, Ontario K2P 1L5 Toronto, Ontario 51 M5H 2T4 1 (613) 564-2727 (416) 861- 2 8720 1 (ii) 2 3 INDEX 4 5 PAGE 6 7SWORN: CAPTAIN WILLIAM HUBBARD 21 8 9 Examination-in-chief by Mr. Freiman 21 10 Cross-examination by Col Drapeau 51 11 Cross-examination by Ms McLaine 55 12 13 14SWORN: COLONEL PASCAL DEMERS 57 15 16 Examination-in-chief by Mr. Freiman 57 17 Cross-examination by Col Drapeau 124 18 Cross-examination by Ms Richards 131 19 Re-examination by Mr. Freiman 141 20 Questions by the Chairperson 143 21 22 23AFFIRMED: CAPTAIN LEONARD DUNN 146 24 25 Examination-in-chief by Ms Coutlée 146 26 Cross-examination by Col Drapeau 163 27 Cross-examination by Ms Richards 165 28 Re-examination by Ms Coutlée 166 29 Questions by the Chairperson 166 1 (iii) 2 3 LIST OF EXHIBITS 4 5NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE 6 7 8P-33 Witness Book Index for Padré Hubbard 1 9 10P-34 Witness Book Index for Colonel Demers 1 11 12P-35 Witness Book Index for Captain Dunn 1 13 14P-6 Addition of Collection F, Volume 3 2 1 1 2 3 4 5 1 Ottawa, Ontario 2--- Upon resuming on Tuesday, April 17, 2012 3 at 9:35 a.m. 4 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. 5 I see you are ready at the mic, Ms 6Coutlée. 7 MS COUTLÉE: Mr. Chairman, we are 8going to begin by entering the exhibits for today. 9We have the Witness Book Index for Padré Hubbard. 10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-33. 11 MS COUTLÉE: Witness Book Index 12for Colonel Demers. 13 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-34. 14 MS COUTLÉE: And Witness Book 15Index for Captain Dunn. 16 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-35. 17 EXHIBIT NO. P-33: Witness 18 Book Index for Padré Hubbard 19 EXHIBIT NO. P-34: Witness 20 Book Index for Colonel Demers 21 EXHIBIT NO. P-35: Witness 22 Book Index for Captain Dunn 23 MS COUTLÉE: We also have a new 24collection of documents, that’s Collection F, 25Volume 3.

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 2 2 3 4 5 1 THE REGISTRAR: Addition to 2Exhibit P-6. 3 EXHIBIT NO. P-6: Addition of 4 Collection F, Volume 3 5 MS COUTLÉE: About this 6collection, two of the documents included -- and 7those are documents 1316 and 1317 -- were provided 8by the Office of the Judge Advocate General to the 9Commission in response to a request for an 10interview. They have provided us with certain 11limitations on the use to be made of those 12documents that they have asked be provided to the 13parties and read into the record. 14 The documents provided to the 15Commission provide general information about 16applicable legal instruments and policies relevant 17to the questions asked by Commission counsel. 18These documents could be interpreted as a general 19statement of a legal position. These documents do 20not represent and cannot be construed as being a 21full or partial waiver of solicitor-client 22privilege, litigation privilege or other applicable 23exceptions provided by law with respect to legal 24opinions provided in a more specific context. 25 The Office of the Judge Advocate

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 3 2 3 4 5 1General has also requested that we turn the 2parties’ attention to the covering letter for those 3materials produced in the new collection as 4document 1316A, which also provides caveats as to 5the use that can be made of the information. 6 THE CHAIRPERSON: Would I find 7that in here? Is it tabbed? 8 MS COUTLÉE: Yes, Mr. Chairman, 9it’s tabs 2 and 3 of the collection of the new 10documents entered. 11 THE CHAIRPERSON: I can’t read 12them right now. It seems to be a lot. 13 Are there any questions relative 14to the documents, especially the ones that were 15just spoken about? Colonel Drapeau? 16 COL (RET’D) DRAPEAU: No comment. 17 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms McLaine or Ms 18Richards? 19 MS RICHARDS: No. 20 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Freiman? 21 MR. FREIMAN: Thank you, Mr. 22Chairman. 23 There is a matter for us to 24discuss this morning that we will have to discuss 25again on Thursday. The media is not here today.

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 4 2 3 4 5 1It’s a little unfortunate because it might have 2been useful for them to know immediately. 3 I have received a letter from 4Colonel Drapeau requesting that a videotape taken 5as part of the NIS investigation into Corporal 6Langridge’s suicide be shown on Thursday, subject 7to a publication ban. Colonel Drapeau’s request is 8to show two excerpts from a 34-minute tape. He 9asks that a publication ban be imposed on the 10republication of that tape. 11 For your information, the tape is 12a tape prepared by the NIS on the day of the 13suicide. It shows the interior of the room in the 14barracks where Corporal Langridge took his life. 15There are certain scenes of the police and of the 16medical examiner’s office coming and doing certain 17things with the body. It is, as you can imagine, 18quite -- I won’t say inflammatory. It is quite -- 19 THE CHAIRPERSON: Graphic maybe? 20 MR. FREIMAN: A graphic tape 21capable of arousing strong emotions. 22 I make no comment right now on the 23merits. I know Ms Richards will have a position 24with respect to both whether the tape should be 25shown and, if it is shown, what parts of it and

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 5 2 3 4 5 1whether a publication ban should issue. 2 Our difficulty is that the 3jurisprudence indicates that where there is 4contemplation of a publication ban, the media 5should be given notice of the possibility that such 6a command will issue so as to allow them to come 7and make representations. 8 It is proposed to show the tape on 9Thursday. If the tape is to be shown, Thursday is 10an appropriate day to show it given that the 11representative of the Alberta Medical Examiner’s 12Office will be here to discuss the events of that 13day. I also understand that the Complainants would 14like to have the tape in evidence prior to Mrs. 15Fynes giving her evidence so as to allow her to 16comment on it. 17 What I would propose in these 18circumstances, if you would like, we could ask the 19parties to give their views today on the question 20of whether it should be shown, if it’s shown, under 21what circumstances in terms of whether the portions 22identified by Colonel Drapeau are appropriate or 23not. 24 I don’t think it’s possible to 25gain much traction on the argument of a publication

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 6 2 3 4 5 1ban in the absence of the media, so what we would 2propose to do is Ms Richards has kindly agreed to 3provide a list of media outlets that should be 4contacted. Since it is Colonel Drapeau’s motion, I 5believe it is his responsibility to give the 6notice. We will attempt to be as helpful as 7possible given the resources available to the 8Commission and the fact that we are fully engaged 9in the hearing, but we will try to be as helpful as 10possible in providing that notice. I will try to 11contact Mr. Tansey to be of some assistance to us. 12 But I propose that Colonel Drapeau 13give notice today that the publication ban, that 14aspect of the motion, be heard first thing on 15Thursday so as to allow you to consider the 16argument and to render a decision. 17 My suggestion in the 18circumstances, given that it’s proposed that the 19tape be shown on Thursday, it may make some sense 20for the parties to give you their submissions on 21what, if anything, should be shown on Thursday and 22will simply reserve the argument of a publication 23ban until Thursday. That will give you a little 24more time to think about the motion on its merits 25in terms of whether the tape should be shown, and

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 7 2 3 4 5 1you can have full submissions the publication ban 2aspect of it Thursday morning. 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: Colonel Drapeau 4and Ms Richards, are you prepared to put your 5positions forward today? 6 COL (RET’D) DRAPEAU: I am 7prepared to speak to it. 8 MS RICHARDS: I can tell you what 9our position is. I am not in a position today to 10provide you legal authority, but perhaps I can tell 11you in general what our position is and we can 12discuss whether it’s necessary to provide you with 13some legal authority on some of these issues. 14 THE CHAIRPERSON: That’s fine. 15 Colonel Drapeau? 16 COL (RET’D) DRAPEAU: What we are 17looking for in this instance, as Mr. Freiman has 18said, is we are looking originally to have at 19maximum a two-minute extract of the video. The 20video is about 34 minutes in length. More 21specifically, it focuses upon the time by which 22Stuart Langridge would have been hanging for in 23excess of four and a half hours when the medical 24examiner and two of his associates are walking into 25the room and basically cloth the body then, the

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 8 2 3 4 5 1whole body -- 2 THE CHAIRPERSON: I’m sorry, you 3said...? 4 COL (RET’D) DRAPEAU: Cloth. Put 5a cloth over the body, a sheet of cloth. 6 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. 7 COL (RET’D) DRAPEAU: And 8eventually untie the knots and take the body down. 9That is the essence of it, which we think is very 10apropos that it be presented when the medical 11examiner himself will be here, the very person in 12fact who is shown in the video. 13 We have discussed with my friends 14from Justice Canada and Mr. Freiman the possibility 15that we would have consent from Ms Richards to have 16a publication ban. Such a consent has been 17expressed, so I take it to be the position of 18Justice at the moment. We are not going to insist 19on it if it comes to push or shove. We would allow 20in fact no publication ban. Our aim is to make 21sure that in support of allegation No. 27 where the 22Complainants both said that they allege that the 23body of their loved son has been disrespected an 24not handled with the dignity expected of a body in 25such circumstances. The best manner in which

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 9 2 3 4 5 1evidence can be presented is by showing as small an 2extract as we can and as quickly and in as 3dignified a manner as possible. 4 That decision has been made by the 5Complainants. Both of them are of one mind on it, 6that they want not only to have this hearing public 7but make sure that the Canadian public understands 8and can see for themselves. I alluded to that in 9my opening comments that it is important, in fact, 10graphic as it is -- graphic doesn’t even begin to 11convey the emotional injuries that they both have 12sustained and continue to sustain. That is part of 13their decision and I believe they have a right 14under the law to ask that this evidence be 15produced, and hence our request. 16 THE CHAIRPERSON: I want to make 17sure I am not confused. You spoke about the public 18having a right to see -- 19 COL (RET’D) DRAPEAU: I am talking 20about the Complainants having a right. 21 THE CHAIRPERSON: The 22Complainants. You weren’t referring to -- 23 COL (RET’D) DRAPEAU: No. 24 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. You 25mentioned one thing and I want to make sure I got

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 10 2 3 4 5 1it. You said the knot was untied? 2 COL (RET’D) DRAPEAU: The knot was 3untied. The body was not cut down. It was untied. 4That is also part of the detail that supports the 5allegation that in their mind -- and that’s why 6they made this allegation -- that the body of their 7late son was not handled with the dignity and 8respect that it deserves. 9 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms Richards? 10 MS RICHARDS: Mr. Chairman, first 11and foremost it’s the position of my clients that 12it’s not in the public interest to have this video 13played publicly. We had likewise hoped that we 14could, through conversation with counsel, have a 15discussion and reach a compromise solution and were 16unable to do. 17 It is our position that if this 18Commission believes it is necessary to see the 19video, the most appropriate course of action in the 20circumstance would be for you, Mr. Chairman, to 21watch the video. We are prepared to consent to you 22watching the video, and drawing whatever inferences 23are appropriate based on the video, in your 24chambers. 25 My clients have some concerns

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 11 2 3 4 5 1about the graphic and sensational nature of this 2video and having it played in public. Just to be 3clear, that is our position on the appropriate 4course of action. 5 Secondly, if there was a decision 6to play the video, we have two things to say to 7that. First of all, it is most appropriate that 8the video be played when Master Corporal Ritco 9testifies. Just to be clear, and I am sure you are 10aware from your experience in policing, this is a 11video that was done by the investigating officer as 12part of his investigation. It is a video of the 13scene and he is the person who prepared, who did 14the videotape, and who properly can speak to what 15was done in the videotape, why he did it and what 16was done. 17 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ritco actually 18did the tape? 19 MS RICHARDS: He is the one who 20did the taping. 21 THE CHAIRPERSON: He physically 22did the taping. 23 MS RICHARDS: He physically did 24the taping and you will hear his voice on the 25video.

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 12 2 3 4 5 1 Secondly, if you were to decide 2that it is appropriate and in the public interest 3to play this video in public, it’s our position 4that the entire video must be played, regrettably. 5Again, I go back to our first position that it 6should not be played in public. However, to play 7the excerpts as suggested by Colonel Drapeau would 8not present a full and fair portrayal of the 9investigation and the conduct of my clients and how 10they dealt with the scene. 11 We are very concerned about the 12excerpts that have been proposed, that they will 13sensationalize the scene and the treatment of 14Corporal Langridge’s body by the National 15Investigation Service. It’s not a full and 16accurate portrayal of how the National 17Investigation Service secured the scene and their 18conduct in this case. 19 I alluded to the fact that we are 20not in a position to provide you with case law on 21this, but there certainly is case law to the extent 22that it’s not appropriate to take small excerpts 23that could be taken out of context. We are 24particularly concerned because, as Colonel Drapeau 25has said, the purpose of this is to try to

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 13 2 3 4 5 1demonstrate that the National Investigation Service 2treated Corporal Langridge’s body with disrespect. 3If that is the purpose, then the entire video must 4be watched to put it in its full and proper 5context. 6 THE CHAIRPERSON: Would you be 7able to get me the case law subsequent to today? 8 MS RICHARDS: Yes, we will do our 9best to get you some case law on that. 10 The final thing that I would say 11in terms of the purpose, many of the factual issues 12that have been raised are really not in dispute 13between the parties. The length of time that 14Corporal Langridge’s body was left hanging is not 15in dispute. The fact that a sheet was not put on 16the body until the medical examiner arrived is not 17in dispute, and I expect that the medical examiner 18will be able to speak to why that may or may not 19have been appropriate. Likewise, the size of 20entrance to his room and the fact that the medical 21examiner chose to untie the knot rather than cut 22him down is not in dispute. Those issues can be 23discussed between the parties without need to view 24the video. 25 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 14 2 3 4 5 1 Mr. Freiman, do you have any 2position? 3 MR. FREIMAN: No, the Commission 4will not be taking a position on Colonel Drapeau’s 5request. 6 I know that Colonel Drapeau would 7like a word in response to Ms Richards’ 8submissions, but let me also indicate, with 9apologies to Colonel Demers, when we are done with 10this, I think I am going to ask for a five-minute 11recess so that I can contact Mr. Tansey and make 12the appropriate arrangements to have him assist us 13giving notice to the media of a potential 14publication ban so we can get that moving as 15quickly as possible. 16 THE CHAIRPERSON: I will have 17another question of you in a moment. 18 Colonel Drapeau, before you make 19comments, I am hearing from you that your position 20is you would like to see the two snippets and you 21are consenting on a publication ban. 22 COL (RET’D) DRAPEAU: We are not 23insisting, but we are certainly consenting to and 24we would like to, but if push comes to shove, we 25will not insist on a publication ban.

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 15 2 3 4 5 1 THE CHAIRPERSON: Then that’s a 2ruling from myself. 3 You had some comments? 4 COL (RET’D) DRAPEAU: A couple of 5comments, please, if I may. 6 My learned friend opened her 7comments as it may not be in the public interest. 8My reaction to this, I am hearing this that it may 9not be in the interest of the Respondents or the 10interest of the various parties, almost all parties 11that my friends represent. That is quite different 12to what the public interest is. So I will leave 13that. 14 To present the extract with a full 15video when Master Corporal Ritco arrives to testify 16may be one thing, but Corporal Ritco will not be 17able to testify for the medical examiner. The 18medical examiner is the one, and his two associates 19are shown in the tape, who has taken the procedures 20required not only to take the body down but also to 21transport it away, and we think that is properly 22linked with their testimony. 23 On the issue of the entire video, 24as I said, and to be abundantly clear, if it has to 25be, then our position will be show it, we obviously

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 16 2 3 4 5 1do not want that, and I share with my colleague a 2certain restraint there that we should only do this 3if we absolutely have to. But my position is, if 4we need to, we are going to do that. 5 My colleague has used the term 6sensationalize. That is her term, that is not 7mine, and that is not our purpose and I would take 8great offence to suggest that it is. 9 My clients, the Complainants, have 10made it a point, as they have said in the 11submission that I made to Commission counsel, 12copied to my friend earlier this morning, that 13there is a specific reason why they want this to be 14shown and to be shown to the public at large, 15sensation is not the case, but they don’t ever want 16any other Canadian family to be going through that. 17 My friend has attributed motive to 18me, and I object to that. She says that we want to 19demonstrate that the NIS has shown disrespect to 20the body. I never said that. I never meant that. 21I meant the procedures being used either by the 22medical examiner or the NIS or the Canadian Forces 23or the DND in having somebody hang for four and a 24half hours, a body uncovered, and people having to 25squeeze by him to do what the video, if it were to

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 17 2 3 4 5 1be shown in its entirety, would show, to do a 2detailed inventory of a watch, of a suicide watch, 3of clothes hanging on a hangar and some other 4objects in the room -- that was the purpose of it 5-- whilst he hanged without any support, without 6any dignity to his body, uncovered. That’s not 7necessarily the fault of the NIS. That may just be 8the directives and the procedures in the training 9they received. It is our objective to have this 10addressed and perhaps even changed. 11 The entire video is that the NIS 12did a very meticulous job of not investigating the 13scene. We don’t care about the scene. We care 14about the body. While no care was given to the 15body, they did an entire, detailed, scrupulous, 16minutiae inventory, video and photographs, in 17excess of 100, of every possible object in the 18room. There is a disconnect. If the fault lies in 19the NIS, that is not our point of departure. 20 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Freiman, 21just for my information, when is Master Corporal 22Ritco testifying? 23 MR. FREIMAN: We don’t anticipate 24the subjects will be called until June. Depending 25on how quickly our May moves, it could be the first

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 18 2 3 4 5 1week of June, it could be the second week of June. 2 THE CHAIRPERSON: Clearly the 3process has been that the subjects would testify at 4the end. 5 MR. FREIMAN: Correct. 6 THE CHAIRPERSON: I want to thank 7you, Colonel Drapeau and Ms Richards, for your 8submissions. 9 I clearly would need to view the 10video. I can’t make any decision without viewing 11the video, so I would need access to the video. I 12would like some case law, whether it’s provided by 13Ms Richards or Colonel Drapeau, if you have some 14that would support your position relative to the 15snippets, if I can call it that, the small pieces, 16then if you have something that would assist me, 17then I would appreciate that. Maybe you could put 18your team on it. Joshua will certainly help. 19 We have notification of the media 20that this is an issue and they may wish to address 21it. 22 MR. FREIMAN: The case law is 23pretty clear that for a publication ban to be put 24in place, the media should be given notice and an 25opportunity to make submissions if they believe

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 19 2 3 4 5 1that a publication ban is not in the public 2interest. 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: So we should try 4to contact media for a return on Thursday morning. 5I would view the video prior to Thursday morning 6and after hearing submissions at that time from 7media and reviewing case law and the transcripts of 8today, then I would make a decision following that. 9Obviously we would have to try to do it the same 10day. 11 Is there anything further to my 12comments, Colonel Drapeau? 13 COL (RET’D) DRAPEAU: No, thank 14you, Mr. Chair. 15 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms Richards? 16 MS RICHARDS: No. 17 MR. FREIMAN: Two things. First 18of all, although it’s a little unusual, I think 19that the earlier the parties could provide you with 20any case law the better, so as to allow you to have 21the benefit of reading the case law. They can make 22their submissions on the case law on Thursday, but 23at least that way you will have a chance to read 24the case law. 25 The only other point I have is I

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 20 2 3 4 5 1would ask for five minutes so that I can contact 2Mr. Tansey to assist us with issues of 3notification. 4 THE CHAIRPERSON: I would be fine 5if you had the case law and just sent me the 6electronic version and I can take care it from 7there to save time in terms of producing. We can 8produce them from that for purposes of the record 9if time is an issue. 10 I know Colonel Drapeau is here in 11the room, so it’s hard for him to deal with it 12until -- and we have three witnesses today. 13 MS RICHARDS: I am in the room 14also. 15 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I know, but 16you may have somebody that may be able to help you. 17I don’t know. It’s very difficult to deal with it 18until tonight anyway or some time tomorrow. 19 MS RICHARDS: We have the same 20restrictions as Colonel Drapeau. You are looking 21at our team. 22 THE CHAIRPERSON: My apologies. 23 We will take until quarter after 2410 to give enough time. 25--- Short recess at 10:00 a.m.

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 21 2 3 4 5 1--- Upon resuming at 10:30 a.m. 2 MR. FREIMAN: After our brief 3detour, we are ready to commence again. Our first 4witness today is Colonel Pascal Demers. 5 Oh, Captain Hubbard is first. 6Then I will need one minute to shift my equipment. 7--- Short pause 8 MR. FREIMAN: Take two. Our first 9witness this morning is Captain Will Hubbard. 10 THE CHAIRPERSON: This could cost 11you. 12SWORN: CAPTAIN WILLIAM HUBBARD 13 THE CHAIRPERSON: Please be 14seated. I apologize for the delay, but we had a 15couple of matters that had to be dealt with. 16 You are Captain Padré Hubbard. 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you prefer to 19be called Captain Hubbard or Padré? 20 THE WITNESS: Padré is good, but I 21don’t stand on ceremony. 22 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 23Padré. 24EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. FREIMAN 25 Q. Good morning, Padré. I

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 22 2 3 4 5 1wonder if we can begin, sir, by having you tell us 2a little bit about your own background and training 3both in the clergy and in the army leading up to 4and through the spring of 2008. 5 A. I did my Masters in Divinity 6way back when as a qualification. Then further in 7my training I did clinical training as a hospital 8chaplain. That was for three years and a couple of 9other supplementary courses in counselling in a 10variety of other capacities. Then of course the 11military training. They meet standards in terms of 12counselling, other ethics, a variety of other 13things as well. 14 Q. Perhaps you could tell us 15your various postings in the military. 16 A. I started out as a non- 17commissioned member for a brief time, three years. 18I then took some time off from the military. I was 19working as a reservist padré at Royal Westminster 20Regiment for about four years. While I was a 21reservist, I did the backfill with Lord 22Strathcona’s Horse. I am now presently in Winnipeg 23as a reg force member with 17 Wing as padré. 24 Q. I understand that you are an 25Anglican priest.

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 23 2 3 4 5 1 A. That I am. 2 Q. Can you help us a little with 3what it is that a padré in the Canadian forces 4does? 5 A. First what we try to do is 6encounter people in relationship. We get a sense 7of people in our social actions, by talking with 8them, engaging them in conversation about their 9lives, eventually it might even be their dreams, 10their aspirations, and then moving on to specific 11kinds of aid, sometimes advocating for members, 12sometimes listening and helping them with their 13emotions, sometimes counselling people in their 14marriage, in their life, in a variety of different 15ways. 16 Q. As a man of the cloth, you 17hear many secrets and personal matters from those 18you encounter. Can you tell us what your view is 19of your obligations in confidentiality? 20 A. So long as there isn’t 21something involving self-harm or harm to others, 22then we try to hold some kind of confidentiality, 23but if there is harm to self or others, we no 24longer are bound to that kind of confidentiality. 25 Q. In your experience -- and we

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 24 2 3 4 5 1will get to the specific matters affecting Corporal 2Langridge in a minute, but in general what is the 3role of a padré with respect to mental health and 4to addictions issues? 5 A. The role generally is that we 6walk with the personal spiritually. By spiritual, 7I think it’s important to make the distinction 8between walking with people and guiding them 9through the purpose and meaning of their lives. As 10such, we don’t lean too heavily on psychological 11profiling or things of that nature. After, say, 12the first two or three times we might counsel 13somebody, we try to refer them on to mental health 14or other individuals that have greater skill with 15that. 16 Q. Again this is a general 17matter. What sort of access do you have to a 18soldier’s medical records in the case of mental 19health issues -- let me change that -- medical 20records and interviews with treating physicians in 21the case of mental health issues. Let’s start with 22that. 23 A. In my capacity as a chaplain 24in a hospital, it was vastly different from my 25capacity as a chaplain in the military. In the

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 25 2 3 4 5 1hospital we had readily participating in charting 2and things of that nature. 3 In terms of our responsibilities 4in the military, we don’t have -- it’s not part of 5the way that we do things. We don’t have access to 6charts or personal information such as that. 7 Q. Let me ask you the same 8question with respect to addictions issues in terms 9of your interaction, if any, with base addictions 10counsellors. 11 A. Base addictions counsellors 12-- what we try to do is try to continually refer 13and we try to always reach out and have consent 14with the individuals. If we are going to have a 15conversation with the addictions counsellor, it 16would be important for us to talk with the member 17and ask for a consent before we do so. Otherwise, 18confidentiality is -- counsellors probably wouldn’t 19have a conversation with us. 20 Q. Let’s move from the general 21to the specific. Can you recall your first 22encounters with Corporal Stuart Langridge? 23 A. I can recall just a social 24engagement, very lightly, just getting to know him 25a little bit. The specifics of that I can’t

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 26 2 3 4 5 1remember. 2 Q. Would this be in the ordinary 3course? You described at the beginning of your 4remarks trying to encounter people in their setting 5and to understand them in their context. Is that 6the nature of the contact you originally made? 7 A. That’s correct. It’s about 8establishing some kind of relationship. Usually we 9are one padré and usually there are 400 or 500 or 10600. Right now I have about 1,000 soldiers that I 11work with. 12 Q. And you are the only padré 13for 1,000 of them. 14 A. That’s correct. 15 Q. This is just to provide us 16all with background. You are specifically an 17Anglican priest and I expect that in those 1,000 18soldiers there will be members of a number of 19denominations and in fact a number of different 20religions. How is that handled? 21 A. It’s handled with respect 22first. What we try to do is be very aware of our 23own backgrounds but also respect what it is that 24other people’s belief systems are. 25 Q. Let’s move from the general

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 27 2 3 4 5 1to the specific with respect to the actual matters 2that engage us in this hearing. 3 You have told us about meeting 4Corporal Langridge in his military environment. 5What was the first incident that you recall in 6which you were involved in a counselling capacity 7or in an advocacy capacity related to Corporal 8Langridge? 9 A. It’s so many years ago. My 10primary memory of having a relationship with Stuart 11was probably visiting him at the hospital after, 12from what I remember, his first attempt. That was 13in February 2008. 14 Q. It’s my understanding, sir, 15that you don’t keep notes or records of your 16interactions with soldiers. 17 A. No, I don’t. 18 Q. You also don’t keep a day 19book in which you record appointments or 20interactions with individuals. 21 A. No, I don’t. 22 Q. We understand that you are 23functioning from memory and it’s over four years 24since the events happened. I am obviously not 25asking you to be precise about times or dates, just

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 28 2 3 4 5 1recollections is fine. 2 You mentioned an attempt that you 3understood Stuart had made to harm himself. I 4would like you to cast your mind back and see if 5you can remember whether there might have been any 6encounters with members of Stuart’s family or 7significant others prior to your being informed of 8what had happened in February. 9 A. I loosely recall having a 10counselling appointment with Rebecca. That was his 11girlfriend at the time. 12 Q. That’s Ms Hamilton-Tree. 13 A. That’s right. 14 Q. Do you recall in general what 15the topic of that counselling was? 16 A. I remember that in that 17particular instance she was referred to me by the 18Adj, Captain Lubiniecki, and it was about their 19relationship. 20 Q. I won’t ask you to discuss 21that. I don’t think it’s appropriate given your 22calling. 23 So you had had an opportunity to 24speak with Ms Hamilton-Tree about the relationship 25between her and Corporal Langridge.

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 29 2 3 4 5 1 A. That’s correct. 2 Q. Do you recall how it was that 3you came to know that Corporal Langridge had 4attempted to harm himself? 5 A. I was on call and it was a 6long weekend. It just so happened that she phoned 7the duty person to indicate for them that there was 8this attempt, and then I followed up with a call 9because she wanted to talk to a chaplain. That’s 10how I found out that this attempt was made. 11 Q. What were you told? What was 12your understanding of what had happened? 13 A. My understanding is that he 14tried to hang himself in their apartment. 15 Q. Can I ask whether when you 16found out about this Corporal Langridge was already 17in hospital or were you in some way involved in 18getting him to hospital? 19 A. I think that he had already 20been brought to the hospital. 21 Q. What was it that you did with 22this information? What did you do after Ms 23Hamilton-Tree informed you that Stuart had tired to 24harm himself? 25 A. I engaged in a conversation

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 30 2 3 4 5 1with my chain of command, in particular the 2chaplain chain of command. There are two chains of 3command in -- 4 Q. Maybe you should tell us 5about that and then we will deal with what you 6actually did. You say you had two chains of 7command. The first is the chaplain chain of 8command. 9 A. That’s right. 10 Q. What is that chain of 11command? 12 A. We have a senior chaplain who 13is responsible for the overall kind of base 14operations. In this case it was Major Wright. He 15is responsible for the base operations with the 16fighting groups, the PPCLI and different units such 17as that, LdSH, CER. So I talked with him and let 18him know that is what the call was all about. Then 19he went up his chain of command to the base. 20 Q. Is it your understanding that 21Major Wright spoke with the base commander? 22 A. Yes, I am assuming that that 23took place. I had the understanding that my chain 24of command might have already known. It was about 2530 or 40 minutes afterwards that it was made clear

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 31 2 3 4 5 1to me that that wasn’t the case and that -- 2 Q. Let me stop you for a moment. 3When you say Amy chain of command”, I take it you 4are not talking about the chaplain chain of 5command, you are talking about the military chain 6of command. 7 A. Yes, in particular my unit’s 8chain of command. 9 Q. That would have involved 10Colonel Demers at the top, then his 2 i/c, then it 11was Major Cadieu, and then on down through the 12adjutant Captain Lubiniecki. 13 A. Yes, the adjutant Captain 14Lubiniecki, and Major Jared would have been the OC 15in charge of the unit for administration, and I 16would follow under him. Different units have 17different ways of doing things. This is the way 18the Strath’s did it. 19 Q. I interrupted you after you 20had told us that you had assumed that the military 21chain of command -- 22 A. That’s the Strath’s, yes. 23 Q. -- knew about this and you 24soon discovered that they did not. 25 A. That’s right.

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 32 2 3 4 5 1 Q. So in effect it was you who 2was alerting the chain of command to the suicide 3attempt. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Did you have any discussions 6with any of the members of the military chain of 7command about this? 8 A. I don’t recall that. 9Actually, could you restate the question? 10 Q. I was trying to determine 11whether you had any recollection of speaking with 12members of the military chain of command about the 13information that you got and getting their 14feedback. 15 A. I remember there was some 16tension because at the command level, the base 17commander has complete oversee of the whole base, 18and he heard about the attempt before Demers, our 19CO. So there was some kind of -- it was a little 20bit awkward. 21 Q. Let me make sure that I have 22understood. The awkwardness was that because you 23had gone through the chaplaincy chain of command, 24the person at the top of that chain of command 25spoke to his counterpart in the military chain of

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 33 2 3 4 5 1command which would have been the base commander, 2so the result was the base commander was aware of 3this information before the rest of the military 4chain of command who would, in the ordinary course, 5be responsible for the soldier. 6 A. That’s what I recall, yes. 7 Q. Do you recall whether you 8spoke with Captain Lubiniecki, the adjutant, about 9this? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Was what you just told us his 12perspective, that he was upset that he was the last 13to know, as it were? 14 A. I could feel the tension 15there, yes. 16 Q. Just cast your mind back 17whether you had a personal discussion with any of 18the other members of the chain of command. 19 A. I had a brief conversation 20with Major Jared and also with Major Cadieu. 21 Q. From your perspective, and 22correct me if I am wrong, as a result of your 23alerting your chain of command, you know that the 24military chain of command was also aware of these 25facts and the people who would have been aware

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 34 2 3 4 5 1would have been the base commander. You told us 2you spoke with Captain Lubiniecki and you spoke 3with Major Jared. Do you recall anyone else? Did 4you speak with either Colonel Demers or Major 5Cadieu? 6 A. Major Cadieu I remember 7having a conversation with, but I can’t remember 8the length or the specifics, but I do remember 9having a conversation with him. 10 Q. So there would have been 11personal contact from you with three members of the 12chain of command. 13 A. That’s right. 14 Q. And you were informed that 15the base commander was also notified by your own 16chain of command. 17 A. That’s right. 18 Q. You have personal knowledge 19of at least four people. You mentioned Colonel 20Demers, and that Captain Lubiniecki’s issue was 21that Colonel Demers hadn’t been informed before his 22base commander had been informed. 23 A. That’s what I recall, yes. 24 Q. Were you aware of any other 25follow-up with respect to your information?

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 35 2 3 4 5 1 A. I think the difficulty that I 2understood was difficulty around a determination of 3whether or not Stuart tried to commit suicide. 4 Q. Can you help us with that? 5What is your understanding of the difficulty that 6the chain of command might have had with that 7issue? 8 A. I think it was more about a 9medical definition about what that meant or how 10that was supposed to be verified. That was my 11understanding. 12 Q. Do you recall from whom you 13got that understanding? 14 A. I can’t remember, no. 15 Q. Do you think it might have 16been with one of the officers we just discussed 17that you had the talk with? 18 A. I believe it might have been 19Captain Lubiniecki. 20 Q. I understand that with 21respect to that particular hospital stay at the 22Royal Alexandra Hospital, you also had some further 23involvement with what happened to Stuart, 24especially around the time that it came to deal 25with whether he was going to be discharged or not.

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 36 2 3 4 5 1 A. It was very involving and I 2like to follow-up with people. I remember 3following up and arranging one way or another to 4meet and having conversations with Sheila for the 5next day, and then also to meet with Stuart. That 6was on a Saturday from what I remember. 7 Q. To the extent only that it 8involved matters dealing with Stuart’s attempt to 9harm himself and the consequent treatment, can you 10tell us the gist of any of those conversations? I 11am not asking for any personal information that 12might have been shared with you. 13 A. I can’t -- 14 Q. Okay, let me direct your 15attention to one specific incident and see if this 16helps you. We have heard some testimony and seen 17some medical records already that when it came time 18for a decision to be made as to what was to happen 19with Corporal Langridge, whether he was to stay in 20hospital or not stay in hospital, there was some 21discussion -- and it may have been more than simply 22discussion -- between Mrs. Fynes and the medical 23staff about what was appropriate for Stuart in the 24circumstances. 25 A. I remember supporting the

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 37 2 3 4 5 1concept that Stuart should be followed up and stay 2within a hospital to guarantee that his personal 3safety was looked after. 4 Q. Just to refresh your memory, 5we have heard some evidence and we have seen some 6records that there might have been an incident 7where Stuart had tried to use the drawstring of his 8pyjamas to cause himself harm. 9 A. That’s correct. 10 Q. Were you aware of that 11circumstance? 12 A. I was there, yes. 13 Q. What is your recollection of 14that? Did you actually see any physical evidence 15of what Stuart had tried to do? 16 A. I didn’t see any physical 17evidence. 18 Q. Again, I know it’s a long 19time ago, but let’s see what can be remembered. Do 20you remember the nature of the conversation between 21the medical staff and Mrs. Fynes and you? We know 22that Mrs. Fynes was advocating for him to stay and 23now we know you were advocating for him to stay. 24Do you recall what the perspective of the medical 25community was?

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 38 2 3 4 5 1 A. The perspective of the 2medical community was, as I recall, that he wasn’t, 3quote/unquote, Aat risk”. 4 Q. Were you there when the 5actual discharge occurred? 6 A. I arranged to pick him up. 7 Q. Can you tell us why you 8thought it was important that you would be involved 9in picking him up? 10 A. I think it’s about follow-up, 11allowing for follow-up and also confidentiality in 12terms of him not having to share that with 13everybody else. 14 Q. Do you recall whether that 15issue of confidentiality was at all important to 16Corporal Langridge? 17 A. I think aspects of wanting to 18be -- to live without shame was very important to 19him. 20 Q. Could you talk a moment about 21that concept of living without shame and what you 22learned and what you concluded about Stuart’s views 23about the importance of living without shame. 24 A. Stuart saw himself as being 25at one time a very good soldier. He felt that it

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 39 2 3 4 5 1was a very important part of his character, being a 2good soldier. So when his life started to pull 3apart a little bit and when he started to lose 4focus of being a good soldier, he really wanted to 5recaptivate that and become that again, but he felt 6that he couldn’t do that if he was going to be 7under the eyes of shame and judgment by others. 8 Q. Did you notice that attitude 9playing itself out in events that you noticed or 10that you were aware of? 11 A. Within the unit and within 12the military there are high expectations of your 13personal conduct. When a soldier loses their path, 14if you will, and makes mistakes, it’s -- people 15know and, pardon the expression, sometimes people 16are called shit bags. So aspects of shame are part 17of living out the military experience. 18 Q. Was Stuart’s attitude typical 19of what a soldier would normally think and do or 20did you notice anything particularly intense about 21Stuart’s desire to live without shame? 22 A. I noticed that Stuart would 23have a preference to live without the shame of 24being in the eyes of other people. He wanted to 25not be watched by other members. He wanted to have

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 40 2 3 4 5 1security of having his own honour and integrity. 2He just wanted to not be looked upon badly. 3 Q. I understand that when you 4thought that Stuart would be spending some time 5back on the base following his discharge from the 6Royal Alexandra Hospital, that you had some 7involvement in trying to ensure that he had a 8proper environment to come back to. Do you 9remember anything about that? 10 A. That’s stuff that I can’t 11quite remember because there are so many things 12that occur in -- there were 200-odd soldiers going 13every six months. There were so many soldiers that 14needed support in a variety of different ways and 15trying to balance all that, I can’t quite recall. 16 Q. I wouldn’t ordinarily do this 17but just because of the reasons you have cited, I 18am going to give you a suggestion and see if this 19rings a bell. If it does, fine. If it doesn’t, 20that’s fine also. 21 My understanding is you might have 22had some role in looking for a place for Stuart to 23live even on the first discharge from the Royal 24Alexandra Hospital. If you can remember, that’s 25fine. If you can’t, that’s fine too.

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 41 2 3 4 5 1 A. I remember talking to the RSM 2at one time trying to establish or get him a place 3to say in the Qs. 4 Q. The RSM would have been then 5Warrant Officer Ross, Chief Warrant Officer Ross. 6 A. That’s correct. 7 Q. You said Aat one time”, so 8it’s possible that this happened after the Royal 9Alexandra stay and it’s also possible it happened 10after the Alberta Hospital stay. 11 A. That’s correct. 12 Q. Let’s talk about the Alberta 13Hospital stay. We know that the day after his 14discharge from the Royal Alexandra Hospital, 15Corporal Langridge was in the Alberta Hospital and 16that -- 17 A. He self-admitted. 18 Q. He self-admitted but on 19admission was certified for a 30-day stay. 20 A. That’s correct. 21 Q. Can you recall what role, if 22any, you had in events during Corporal Langridge’s 23stay at the Royal Alexandra Hospital? 24 A. I remember having a deep sigh 25of relief because I thought that he would be

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 42 2 3 4 5 1receiving care. I was very concerned for his 2welfare, so I was optimistic. As a follow-up I 3remember having contact with him and at some level 4even with Rebecca and conversations and calls. I 5don’t know how many or specifics, but I remember 6having conversations. 7 Q. We are aware that at some 8point during Corporal Langridge’s stay at the 9Alberta Hospital an issue arose as to the townhouse 10that he had been living in and sharing with Ms 11Hamilton-Tree. 12 A. That’s correct. 13 Q. Do you remember what that 14issue was and what your role was in it? 15 A. I remember the issue was 16affordability and bills and Stuart just couldn’t 17afford to pay, so we needed to arrange other 18options for him and his stuff because he couldn’t 19afford to pay for -- 20 Q. Storage. 21 A. -- storage. 22 Q. What did you do in order to 23assist with that issue? 24 A. I advocated that we find a 25place within the unit and see if it was possible to

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 43 2 3 4 5 1store his stuff there. 2 Q. Were you successful in your 3advocacy? 4 A. Oh, yes, although it seems to 5be contrary to policy in some respects. I don’t 6know what all the loopholes are. 7 Q. So you were successful in 8securing agreement by the military to store 9Corporal Langridge’s possessions. I understand 10that you had some role and were present during the 11events involving the cleaning out of Corporal 12Langridge’s townhouse that he shared with Ms 13Hamilton-Tree. 14 A. That’s correct. 15 Q. Can you recall what your 16involvement was and what happened? 17 A. I do recall showing up and 18being with the members as we started to pack 19everything away and having conversations with 20Rebecca and with Sheila and then just supporting 21the whole endeavour. It seemed to be going okay. 22 Q. Just to go back to something 23I forgot to ask you; we know with the Royal 24Alexandra Hospital you informed the chaplaincy 25chain of command about the suicide attempt that had

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 44 2 3 4 5 1occurred, about those circumstances. Did you have 2any role in informing the military either through 3your own chain of command or through the chaplaincy 4chain of command about anything to do with Corporal 5Langridge’s Alberta Hospital stay? 6 A. I don’t remember right now, 7no. 8 Q. Let me ask one specific 9issue: As we have begun to hear, and I suspect we 10will hear further later on in the proceedings, 11there were a number of disputes that arose after 12Stuart’s death between the Fynes and the military 13regarding some of Stuart’s possessions and how 14careful the military was about safeguarding those 15possessions. 16 When you attended at the 17townhouse, you attended with Mrs. Fynes? 18 A. Sheila was there, Rebecca was 19there and about six other junior ranks. 20 Q. When the process of dividing 21up the furniture and effects and arranging for some 22to go with Ms Hamilton-Tree and some to be stored 23were made, do you recall seeing a samurai sword? 24 A. No. 25 Q. You have told us your sense

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 45 2 3 4 5 1during Corporal Langridge’s stay at the Alberta 2Hospital was that things were going relatively 3well. Can you expand on that? What did you 4notice, if anything, about Stuart’s demeanour, how 5he was coping with his life during that stay? 6 A. I remember having a telephone 7conversation with him and I remember him saying 8that he felt that he was on the right track and 9that he was fairly positive about what was going on 10there. 11 Q. Did you have any 12conversations with him about what he saw the next 13step for himself being? 14 A. I can’t recall. 15 Q. We know from the records -- 16and maybe this will help you recall. We know there 17was some issue as to whether Stuart was to stay at 18the Alberta Hospital or whether he was to be 19discharged back to the military and there was some 20issue as to whether Stuart would be sent to 21residential treatment following his stay at the 22Alberta Hospital. Does any of that ring a bell for 23you? 24 A. No, not right at the moment. 25 Q. As we discuss it, there may

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 46 2 3 4 5 1be something that occurs to you, and please do feel 2free, if you do recall, to let us know. 3 We know you had an involvement 4with Stuart leaving the Royal Alexandra Hospital. 5Did you have any involvement with his departure 6from the Alberta Hospital after his 30-day stay? 7 A. A little, yes. I remember 8basically advocating for him to get a PMQ. That’s 9about all I remember. I was also preparing for an 10interview for the reg force. I was away for a 11couple of weeks that I recall. 12 Q. As I understand it, you were 13away just about at the time that the unfortunate 14events that terminated Stuart’s life occurred. 15 A. That’s correct. 16 Q. You have told us a little bit 17about Stuart’s perspective. I am going to ask you, 18based on your own professional experience and your 19chaplaincy role and your understanding of Corporal 20Langridge that you talked to us about, do you have 21any views as to how he would likely have responded 22to being put under observation 24 hours a day, 23seven days a week? 24 A. By military personnel? 25 Q. Yes.

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 47 2 3 4 5 1 A. Stuart would have responded 2to that negatively from his point of view. 3 Q. If it had been by hospital 4personnel, do you have a view as to whether there 5would be any difference? 6 A. I can’t make that judgment. 7 Q. Did Corporal Langridge ever 8speak to you about what he thought he needed by way 9of support to meet his mental health or addictions 10challenges? 11 A. I think he might have had a 12growing understanding of what that would have been. 13When he did go into the 30-day stay, it was because 14he wanted to receive care. 15 Q. During that 30-day period, 16did you ever get the sense that he had changed his 17mind about wanting to get that sort of care, 18medical care? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Did you have any further 21involvement with this matter up to the time that 22Stuart did end his life? 23 A. I can’t remember. 24 Q. Let me speak briefly with you 25about events that followed Stuart’s death. Did you

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 48 2 3 4 5 1have any involvement in the planning and 2preparation for the funeral that was to occur? 3 A. Yes, I took a role in that in 4terms of the responsibility of the priest in charge 5of celebrating the service. 6 Q. We have recently had 7production of a number of documents that we didn’t 8have at the time you were good enough to sit down 9and talk to us earlier in anticipation of this 10hearing. On the basis of those documents, it would 11appear that you in fact attended at the funeral 12home with Ms Hamilton-Tree and a friend. 13 A. That’s correct. I remember 14that. 15 Q. Can you cast your mind back 16and see if you can remember what happened at that 17meeting. 18 A. I think it was a meeting with 19the AO, Rebecca and myself. I remember there was 20another soldier, but I can’t quite recall who it 21was. 22 Q. Might it have been Corporal 23Rohmer? 24 A. Yes. We discussed the 25process of what kind of -- well, they discussed. I

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 49 2 3 4 5 1wasn’t really involved with a decision about 2specifics. I was just there for presence, if you 3will. The way that we conduct ourselves in 4chaplaincy is more about presence, not an active 5role in decisions. 6 They were deciding about a casket 7and a variety of other things, the stuff that takes 8place in a funeral home. 9 Q. I hate to ask you for this 10kind of precision given how long ago it has been, 11but do you recall who was making the decisions? 12Was it Ms Hamilton-Tree? Was it the AO? Who was 13engaged in the discussions about the funeral 14arrangements? 15 A. I remember that it was a 16dialogue between the AO and Rebecca with the 17support of the other junior ranks member. Now that 18I recall, I think it was more specifically the AO, 19Rebecca and the funeral director. 20 Q. Let me briefly take you to 21the funeral itself. You celebrated the service. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Did you notice anything 24unusual occurring at the funeral, anything untoward 25or out of the ordinary?

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 50 2 3 4 5 1 A. Nothing out of the ordinary. 2Funerals, in my experience, are nothing within the 3ordinary. 4 Q. My last questions really deal 5with subsequent investigations. As you may be 6aware, this isn’t the first time that these events 7have been the subject of discussion or 8investigation. There have been a number of 9different investigations by different 10organizations, entities and individuals. Were you 11ever contacted by anyone either associated with the 12military police or with the military in general to 13discuss what you knew about these events? 14 A. I wasn’t contacted by the 15military police at all. Up until the board of 16inquiry, nothing. 17 Q. How about the board of 18inquiry, do you remember what your role was vis-à- 19vis the board of inquiry? 20 A. I remember giving statements 21and providing much the same sort of information 22that has been provided here. 23 MR. FREIMAN: Padré, thank you 24very much. I know this is not easy and we are 25asking you to do things that are challenging for

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 51 2 3 4 5 1you. I thank you very much for your assistance. 2 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: Before I proceed 4to Colonel Drapeau, does anyone need a health break 5or can we carry on? 6 THE WITNESS: Could I have a five- 7minute break? 8 THE CHAIRPERSON: We can give you 910. Five minutes doesn’t really work very good for 10us, we have found. We will take 10 minutes. 11--- Short recess at 11:15 a.m. 12--- Upon resuming at 11:28 a.m. 13 THE CHAIRPERSON: Colonel Drapeau? 14 COL (RET’D) DRAPEAU: Thank you, 15Mr. Chair. 16CROSS-EXAMINATION BY COL DRAPEAU: 17 Q. Padré, good morning. You got 18to know Stuart fairly well over the course of a 19number of months. 20 A. Fairly well. 21 Q. You had many conversations 22with him on the phone or in person, you visited him 23in the hospital. 24 A. As much as I could, yes. 25 Q. Would I be correct to suggest

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 52 2 3 4 5 1that you would have found him to be suicidal for a 2good portion of that time? 3 A. I couldn’t make that 4diagnosis. 5 Q. But he did go back repeatedly 6to the hospital that you are aware of. 7 A. I’m sorry, could you say that 8again? 9 Q. He went and admitted himself 10to the hospital. 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Because of his suicidal 13thoughts. 14 A. I think it was also that he 15just needed specific care. I don’t know if it was 16just because of suicidal thoughts. 17 Q. Earlier you mentioned the 18people who you would have had discussions with, 19consultations or exchanges and that included Major 20Jared and Captain Lubiniecki and Major Cadieu. 21Would Colonel Demers be one of them too? 22 A. I had conversations with a 23number of different people, yes. 24 Q. But as a padré, would I be 25right in saying that you had access any time you

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 53 2 3 4 5 1wanted to Colonel Demers? 2 A. Not any time, but yes, I had 3access. 4 Q. On matters of importance you 5would. 6 A. That’s correct. 7 Q. Would you have had 8discussions with Colonel Demers? 9 A. I did and I can’t remember 10specifically what those conversations were. 11 Q. Were you aware of the 12conditions upon which or measures or restrictions 13that Stuart had imposed upon him upon his discharge 14and under which he was living immediately at the 15time of his passing? 16 A. No. 17 Q. That he was under supervision 18in quarters? 19 A. I was not aware of that 20because I wasn’t there at that specific time. 21 Q. But you became aware of it or 22did you become aware after his passing? 23 A. I understand that he was 24under some supervision and that he was -- and how 25he was discovered dead.

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 54 2 3 4 5 1 Q. You are a very busy padré in 2a unit that had an important operational mission, 3so you were in contact, I would assume, through the 4various rank levels, particularly the corporals and 5privates and so on which form the bulk of the unit. 6 A. Yes, a variety, the whole 7bulk of that unit, yes. 8 Q. Is it your sense, then, that 9Stuart’s suicide attempts and various difficulties 10and the shame associated with it was common 11knowledge within his comrades-in-arms? 12 A. I am not sure about common 13knowledge. I couldn’t make that -- 14 Q. Was that a subject of 15discussion between yourself and people who raised 16that with you? 17 A. No, I didn’t have that 18conversation with junior ranks. 19 Q. When you went to the house, 20you said you were there with Sheila and six or 21seven other ranks from the regiment to empty the 22house and to move his stuff. Was the house fully 23furnished then? 24 A. I remember it being fully 25furnished, yes.

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 55 2 3 4 5 1 Q. With things on the walls and 2so on and so forth? 3 A. I can’t remember everything, 4but there were personal things. 5 Q. By the time you were done, 6was the house empty? 7 A. For the most part, I believe, 8yes, it was fairly empty. 9 Q. Would it be fair for me to 10say that what you moved was stuff that belonged to 11Stuart? 12 A. That’s correct. 13 Q. And Rebecca’s stuff was 14either left behind or taken out beforehand. 15 A. Yes, and I can’t remember 16that specifically. 17 COL (RET’D) DRAPEAU: That’s all I 18have. Thank you. 19 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms McLaine or Ms 20Richards? 21 MS McLAINE: I have only one 22question. 23CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS McLAINE: 24 Q. Do you have any views as to 25how the regiment treated Corporal Langridge?

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 56 2 3 4 5 1 A. I think the regiment helped 2Stuart as much as it possibly could. 3 MS McLAINE: Thank you. 4 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any 5re-exam, Mr. Freiman? 6 MR. FREIMAN: No. 7 THE CHAIRPERSON: Padré, I want to 8thank you for your attendance today. Clearly the 9support and help you provide to not only members -- 10I think you said you had 1,000 that you deal with 11now, which is a fairly significant congregation. 12 THE WITNESS: It is. 13 THE CHAIRPERSON: Not to mention 14the associated families. Thank you for the work 15that you do. I am sure it’s most difficult at 16times, but probably much appreciated by the members 17of the military and families. So thank you very 18much. 19 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 20 THE CHAIRPERSON: You are free to 21leave if you wish, or if you want to wait for a 22moment until we see. 23 We have two more witnesses. 24 MR. FREIMAN: I think the 25arrangements are for the witnesses to show up after

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 57 2 3 4 5 1lunch. 2 MS RICHARDS: I believe the 3witness is here, but it is 11:30, so I don’t know 4if there is any point in -- 5 THE CHAIRPERSON: In terms of 6Colonel Demers and Captain Dunn, are you 7anticipating that these are going to be lengthy 8witnesses? 9 MR. FREIMAN: No, I am not. I 10think we are in fine shape for the afternoon. We 11have a certain amount of flexibility with our 12schedule because Captain Dunn is resident in 13Ottawa. We should be fine. 14 THE CHAIRPERSON: All right. We 15will break for lunch until 1:00. 16--- Luncheon recess at 11:35 a.m. 17--- Upon resuming at 1:05 p.m. 18 MR. FREIMAN: Our next witness is 19Colonel Pascal Demers. 20SWORN: COLONEL PASCAL DEMERS 21EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. FREIMAN: 22 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon. 23Welcome. 24 MR. FREIMAN: Good afternoon, 25Colonel Demers. I wonder by way of beginning, you

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 58 2 3 4 5 1could briefly tell us about your career in the 2Canadian military down to today. Just tell us when 3you joined the Forces and then your relevant 4experience with Lord Strathcona's Horse and 5thereafter. 6 THE CHAIRPERSON: Before he 7starts, he may be a little bit humble about it, but 8he was promoted to full Colonel as of yesterday. 9 MR. FREIMAN: Congratulations, 10sir. 11 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much. 12I joined the Canadian Forces in 1985 and attended 13Royal Roads Military College in Victoria for four 14years, and then joined Strathcona's Horse as a 15trooper leader and did a number of positions with 16the regiment in Calgary and then Edmonton when I 17moved to Edmonton, so I was a troop leader. 18 I was the adjutant responsible for 19personnel. I would command at a tank squadron and 20a reconnaissance squadron, which included 21deployment to Bosnia, and prior to that, I should 22mention that I deployed to Bosnia as the adjutant 23of the Strathcona Battle Group. 24 And then I did our Command of 25Staff College, was promoted to lieutenant colonel,

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 59 2 3 4 5 1went to Bosnia again for a year as chief of 2operations, instructed at the Army Staff College, 3and then took command of the regiment. I commanded 4from the summer of '06 to the summer of '08. 5 Afterwards, I trained for 6deployment to Afghanistan as chief-of-staff of the 7Canadian Task Force under General Vance, spent most 8of 2009 in Afghanistan. 9 And then on return to Canada, I 10came to Ottawa to be executive assistant to the 11Vice Chief of Defence Staff for just over two 12years, and tomorrow I'm starting a new position in 13the Strategic Joint Staff. 14 MR. FREIMAN: 15 Q. Thank you very much. Very 16impressive. Colonel, as you are aware, one of the 17issues that this Commission is asked to look at is 18the events surrounding the suicide of Corporal 19Langridge and some concerns that his parents have 20expressed about the conduct of the military police 21in relation thereto. 22 One of our issues really is 23suicide and suicide response and suicide policy. 24Suicide prevention policy is one of the matters 25that is entrusted to the commanding officer of

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 60 2 3 4 5 1various units. And it's in that connection that 2I'm going to ask you to turn up tab 17 of the 3document book that you have in front of you. 4 It is the suicide prevention 5policy that, according to the complainants, was 6enforced at the time of Corporal Langridge's 7suicide. If we turn up tab 17, the second page of 8the actual policy under "General" -- but before we 9get to "General," I guess we should get to the 10prevention policy itself, and it's under 11"Prevention." 12 Point 10 says: 13 "Commanding officers (COs) 14 are responsible to ensure 15 that suicide prevention is 16 given appropriate priority 17 within the unit." 18 So that's the assignment to 19someone who would have been in your position with 20respect to the Lord Strathcona's. I would like to 21ask you: What was the suicide prevention policy 22that was in place in 2007, 2008 in response to the 23responsibility to ensure that a suicide prevention 24is given appropriate priority? 25 A. In my unit, we followed the

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 61 2 3 4 5 1CFAO 19-44, so we didn't have a separate policy 2written. We just followed this policy, and that 3would include running a peer counselling for a 4select number of soldiers. 5 Suicide prevention was discussed 6at some of our routine safety meetings, and then we 7would follow this policy in terms of directing 8people who showed signs of suicidal thoughts or 9that type of thing to medical attention and so on. 10 Q. There is talk on the second 11page about intervention. Paragraph 12 states: 12 "Base commanders and COs are 13 to develop appropriate 14 intervention plans to allow a 15 rapid, coordinated and 16 effective response to reports 17 that an individual displays 18 signs of suicide behaviour." 19 Can you recall whether there was 20anything in place by way of a specific intervention 21plan? 22 A. I would just say that we kept 23in very close contact with all of the sort of the 24first responding support personnel on the base, 25medical staff, military police and chaplains so

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 62 2 3 4 5 1that we could direct soldiers who needed any type 2of help to the right source. 3 Q. There is also at point 11 a 4stipulation that: 5 "Suicide intervention should 6 begin when the signs of 7 potential suicidal behaviour 8 are first observed and 9 identified in an individual. 10 Signs and symptoms of 11 potential suicide must be 12 reported immediately to 13 medical staff, or if 14 unavailable, to a social work 15 officer or chaplain, who 16 shall initiate such action as 17 is required." 18 Do you recall where there was any 19educational programs or opportunities in place in 202007, 2008 that would address what the signs and 21symptoms of potentially suicidal behaviour would 22be? 23 A. Those peer counselling 24sessions I mentioned would include signs of suicide 25and would have been discussed at safety talks and

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 63 2 3 4 5 1so on. 2 Q. I think I'm really more 3focused not on peer counselling, which might be -- 4perhaps I'm wrong, but as I understand it, it would 5be directed to soldiers who might be at risk of 6suicidal behaviour? 7 A. No, in fact, it would be 8directed at others as well who could see signs in 9their colleagues and coworkers. 10 Q. Would the peer counselling, 11then, be available to everyone in the unit, or 12would there be something that would identify a 13person who should be given peer counselling? 14 A. It would be given to a select 15number of people or representational number of 16people like our harassment advisor type of 17training, and we have a number of programs that 18follow the same boat. 19 Q. Let me be explicit as to why 20I'm asking: We have heard some evidence of types 21of behaviour that might fall within the category of 22signs or symptoms, and that sort of behaviour would 23be observed not by a social worker or a chaplain or 24a harassment advisor, it would be observed by an 25ordinary soldier, one of Corporal Langridge's

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 64 2 3 4 5 1friends or colleagues. 2 Was there something available to 3the military population as a whole that would allow 4them to understand what the signs and symptoms of 5potential suicidal behaviour might be? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Can you help us a little bit 8with what that would have looked like? 9 A. It is just what I said. Just 10that the peer counselling training, which would go 11to a select number of soldiers so they can identify 12signs amongst colleagues should they come up. 13 Q. Let me be even more explicit, 14then, and ask your view in light of the fact that 15you were in charge at least the responsible overall 16for this. 17 We have heard evidence of one 18soldier observing Corporal Langridge giving out 19some of his possessions, and we read in paragraph 5 20of this note: 21 "Most cases of suicide are 22 preceded by warning signs. 23 Some of these, such as giving 24 away treasured possessions 25 are openly expressing

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 65 2 3 4 5 1 suicidal thoughts or 2 intentions, are closely 3 linked to suicidal acts." 4 And then it talks about other 5signs. And then it continues: 6 "Evidence of such warning 7 signs should not be 8 discounted in an individual. 9 Instead, the appropriate 10 intervention measure should 11 be initiated to ensure that 12 these people receive prompt 13 attention." 14 My question is whether the general 15military population would have had access to 16education and information such that a soldier who 17saw Corporal Langridge giving away his possessions 18would be expected to know that this is a sign of 19suicide and would be expected to report that to an 20appropriate authority. 21 A. I think a number of soldiers 22might understand that. A number of personnel and 23the chain of commander might understand that, 24certainly people who have read the CFAO would have 25a better understanding, but I'm not sure who this

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 66 2 3 4 5 1soldier is, and unfortunately he may not have had 2that understanding. 3 Q. That's really what I wanted 4to get at, just your sense of how widespread that 5knowledge would have been at the time. 6 My understanding is that it was 7knowledge that was given to key individuals within 8the unit, but not perhaps known by the broad 9military population at large. Would that be a fair 10observation? 11 A. It would be, yes. 12 Q. I would ask you, then, just 13in that connection to turn up tab 30. This is the 14Board of Inquiry report, and the Board of Inquiry 15made a number of observations. 16 The second page of this extract 17from the Board of Inquiry draft report, at 18paragraph 194 states: 19 "The Board found that the 20 LDSH(RC) follows the policy 21 as outlined in CFAO 19-44, 22 Suicide Prevention. The unit 23 has an 'Immediate Action' 24 plan: Ensure the safety of 25 the member, inform the chain

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 67 2 3 4 5 1 of command through a 2 Significant Incident Report, 3 refer the individual to the 4 medical facility, and order a 5 Summary Investigation. The 6 unit includes suicide 7 prevention as one of its 8 topics during weekly safety 9 briefings, and provides 10 training opportunities for 11 soldiers on suicide 12 prevention and peer support 13 courses." 14 Is this an accurate assessment of 15the situation from your perspective? 16 A. Yes, it is. 17 Q. What part of that is the 18immediate action plan that's referred to? 19 A. It's not a written plan. 20It's just a reaction to an incident as stated in 21that paragraph, and as in fact we did after 22Corporal Langridge's suicide attempt in June '07. 23 Q. Finally, just on a general 24topic area, the policy for suicide prevention at 25tab 17 deals with summary investigations and there

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 68 2 3 4 5 1is also a notation -- I think I'm going to have to 2find it for a second. Tab 12 deals with summary 3investigations following the suicide. Much of this 4really deals with -- I hate to say successful 5suicides -- but with situations where a suicide is 6attempted and the person does die as a result. 7 But if you look at paragraph 12, 8which is on the second page, we find the following: 9 "When a death occurs, a 10 summary investigation most be 11 ordered if a board of inquiry 12 is not convened." 13 And then paragraph 13 states: 14 "When an injury occurs and a 15 board of inquiry is not 16 convened, a summary 17 investigation shall be 18 ordered if the injury (1) is 19 serious, (2) is likely to 20 cause permanent disability, 21 or (3) is suspected to be the 22 result of a wilful act of the 23 injured person; and (b) 24 should be considered if the 25 injury is considered

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 69 2 3 4 5 1 attributable to military 2 service or if there is any 3 doubt about the permanency of 4 the injury." 5 Based on the policy that was in 6place at Lord Strathcona's during 2007 and 2008, 7what is your view as to when a summary 8investigation should be convened with respect to a 9suicide attempt? 10 Should there always be a summary 11investigation, or was it your view that there was 12some latitude when there was a suicide attempt 13rather than a successful suicide? 14 A. I don't think there is any 15latitude. I think there always must be an 16investigation because a suicide attempt is the 17result of a wilful act to the injured person. 18 Q. If I'm correct, it would have 19been your expectation that if certainly a member of 20the chain of command or a person with some 21authority became aware of a suicide attempt that 22that should be reported and a summary investigation 23should be convened? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Let's start for a bit to look

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 70 2 3 4 5 1at the actual events related to Corporal Langridge, 2and I would like to start in the context of suicide 3attempts with, as you mentioned, the first suicide 4attempt. 5 I understand that you were made 6aware of this suicide attempt at about the time the 7events were happening or shortly thereafter. 8 A. The June '07 event? 9 Q. Yes. We have seen that as a 10result of the attempt, a summary investigation was 11ordered by you and we have seen the notice to 12convene. I can tell you that tab 66 is the summary 13investigation itself, and tab 67 is a letter that 14is signed on your behalf by Major, as he then was, 15Cadieu with respect to how the unit was going to 16receive the report by Captain Hunt on the summary 17investigation. 18 Let me first start, and you may 19find this peculiar, but there appears to have been 20some discussion and some controversy at the 21hearings as to whether you would have seen the 22letter at tab 67 even though it is officially sent 23on your behalf. Do you recall having seen or read 24this letter before it was sent out? 25 A. As I recall, it was discussed

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 71 2 3 4 5 1with me by Major Cadieu before he signed on my 2behalf, and I was away from Edmonton at the time. 3 Q. Is it safe to assume that 4this letter is your letter or that you adopted 5Colonel Cadieu's signed letter as your own, or was 6there -- again, I know this is going to sound 7peculiar to you and I hadn't anticipated it, but we 8did hear some comments in previous evidence. 9 I just want to establish whether 10this for all practical purposes is your letter or 11whether it should be treated as Colonel -- or then 12Major Cadieu's letter or maybe even the adjutant, 13Captain Lubiniecki, as he then was, his letter, 14because he's the one who would have provided the 15draft for Major Cadieu to sign. So whose letter is 16it? 17 A. It was produced by a staff in 18a team, but it's my letter with my signature on it. 19I'm sorry. My signature block, if you will. 20 Q. I apologize for taking you 21through this, but for purposes of the record, I 22thought it was important just to clarify that. 23 Can we look at the letter, and 24specifically I would like to look at paragraph 3 of 25the letter. In paragraph 3, the letter recites:

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 72 2 3 4 5 1 "The health, welfare, and 2 rehabilitation of Corporal 3 Langridge remain my primary 4 concern. Currently, he is 5 receiving continued treatment 6 from the medical community 7 for his substance abuse 8 issues as well as counselling 9 for suicide prevention. The 10 Regiment is examining 11 suitable employment for the 12 member that will build his 13 self-esteem, strengthen bonds 14 with peers by employing him 15 within the Regiment, and 16 provide him with a sense of 17 belonging and purpose." 18 Just stopping at that. Were you 19personally kept informed of the kinds of employment 20that were being given to Corporal Langridge 21following this incident? 22 A. Yes, I was briefed. 23 Q. My understanding is that he 24was assigned to work full-time for the stables NCO? 25 A. Correct.

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 73 2 3 4 5 1 Q. That's in fact one of the 2recommendations in Captain Hunt's SI on this 3incident. We heard yesterday some evidence of the 4kinds of work that Corporal Langridge was assigned. 5I have to ask you, Colonel, whether in your view, 6taking out the garbage, changing oil pans, 7polishing trophies would qualify as suitable 8employment to build Corporal Langridge's 9self-esteem and strengthen bond with peers? 10 A. I think to answer that, I 11have to explain that the majority of the regiment 12was in Afghanistan or training to go to Afghanistan 13with the tank squadrons, so there were other 14limited opportunities. 15 We tried to put Corporal Langridge 16back into the reconnaissance squadron, and that was 17at his request, and again at his request, he was 18pulled out of that squadron, so that left support 19tasks in the garrison. I understand that that's 20not ideal, but I couldn't send him to Afghanistan. 21 He didn't want to be in the 22reconnaissance squadron, so the options were 23limited, so I think under the circumstances, I 24think that's the best that could be done at the 25time.

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 74 2 3 4 5 1 Q. The next sentence that we 2find in this letter is: 3 "Corporal Langridge's file is 4 currently being reviewed by 5 DMCARM and it is anticipated 6 that the member will be 7 placed on counselling and 8 probation for 12 months for 9 the positive results of 10 controlled substances/illicit 11 drug use." 12 I wonder if you could just help us 13by explaining what this process was, why this 14matter was being considered by DMCARM and what 15would have been anticipated by you at this point in 16terms of next steps. 17 A. Anyone that tested positive 18to controlled substance has their file reviewed by 19DMCARM. The file would go forward with the CO's 20recommendation for retention or release. If the 21member was to be retained, having tested positive 22to drugs, there would be 12-month period during 23which there would be follow-on drug testing to 24confirm that he had stopped taking drugs. 25 Q. Let's just talk about that

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 75 2 3 4 5 1first step. Do I understand that the first step 2would have been to decide whether to retain him or 3release him right on the spot? 4 A. To recommend, the CO's 5authority is only to recommend. Somewhere in these 6documents is my note recommending retention. 7 Q. Yes. Your note was 8counselling and probation for a 12-month period. 9Was there a standard policy? In other words, was 10there a real prospect that Corporal Langridge or 11someone in his position would not be retained 12solely on the basis of one failed drug test, or was 13there a policy that the first one leads to 14counselling and probation? 15 A. I'm just trying to remember 16now because the policy has been shifted over the 17years, but certainly in Corporal Langridge's case, 18my recommendation was to retain him. In other 19cases, I could have made a recommendation for 20immediate release. 21 Q. My understanding is that the 22counselling and probation process was put on hold 23pending the outcome of a number of appeals that 24Corporal Langridge had lodged as to the accuracy of 25the results.

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 76 2 3 4 5 1 A. Right. He had the right to 2appeal the results. 3 Q. He appealed once simply on a 4representation that his medications might have 5interfered. There was a finding that, no, there is 6no basis for that allegation, and he then exercised 7his right to have the initial sample retested by an 8independent laboratory, and that was still pending 9at the time of his death. So we know that he never 10got to the point of counselling and probation. 11 I would like to ask you whether 12this was a matter of some concern to you in terms 13of the kind of delay that this evidence is in the 14process where a soldier tests positive on a safety 15screen in May and his case is still unresolved even 16at the level of verifying that the result is 17positive for 10 months. 18 A. Certainly as a commanding 19officer, I would prefer for these things to move 20more quickly, but it was his right to appeal, and 21that was the process we had in place and I didn't 22have any specific frustration with that. 23 Q. I was thinking more in terms 24of, in effect, the limbo in which the soldier finds 25himself having tested positive, so you know that

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 77 2 3 4 5 1there is a good chance -- use the mildest form -- 2that he's a person with a substance problem that 3needs addressing, yet from a legal point of view, 4you can't order anything. And this goes on for a 5year that should be devoted to something else. 6 A. That's true. 7 Q. I take it that was simply one 8of the frustrations, and from your point of view, 9there was nothing to do about this. 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. Let me, then, direct your 12attention to point 4 in your letter. Point 4 says: 13 "I have directed my Adjutant 14 to examine the standard 15 operating procedures involved 16 in the reaction to, and 17 reporting of attempted 18 suicides in order to ensure 19 confidentiality of the issue 20 while ensuring the proper 21 authorities are immediately 22 made aware of the situation." 23 Were you in a position to 24follow-up up on this to see what progress had been 25made? I think we have to be direct about this:

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 78 2 3 4 5 1Captain Lubiniecki as he then was was the adjutant. 2He would have drafted this letter which includes a 3direction for him to take certain steps, so it's 4really him saying, "I'm going to do this." 5 What I'm asking you is whether you 6are in a position to follow-up with him or whether 7you were ever informed as to what, if anything, was 8done in pursuit of this re-examination of SOPs. 9 A. What I recall happening in 10this case is that -- and we wanted to find out why 11there was sort of talk on the hanger floor about 12the incident because the incident caused some 13embarrassment for Corporal Langridge. 14 What we were able to discover, as 15I was told, was that the two soldiers who found 16Corporal Langridge in his jeep when he was trying 17to kill himself in June -- it's Corporal Hillier 18and Rohmer if I remember correctly. 19 Q. Correct. 20 A. They talked about it in the 21corporal's coffee area, if you will, so first we 22wanted to find out if there was a sort of a 23systemic problem with sort of indiscreetly passing 24information, but if this was soldiers talking 25amongst themselves, it's something that was quite

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 79 2 3 4 5 1difficult to control other than trying to impress 2upon them that if they are aware of sensitive 3information about someone, they should just keep it 4to themselves, but that's not something that is 5easily policed. 6 Q. What about the second half of 7it where as a balance to ensuring confidentiality? 8There is mention that ensuring the proper 9authorities are immediately made aware of the 10situation. 11 Was there a policy in place or was 12a policy reviewed and a decision made about whether 13you needed a policy in place to ensure that people 14understood whom to report these matters to, who the 15proper authorities were? 16 A. From what I understood in 17this case, certainly, the proper folks were told. 18The reason this sentence is worded this way, I 19think, was to ensure that we didn't have a 20situation where in passing on the information to 21the chain of command that there had been an 22attempted suicide, you know, people found out who 23didn't need to know. 24 Q. I'm going to come back to 25that later. I would like to discuss with you in a

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 80 2 3 4 5 1few moments what happened in a couple other 2incidents in terms of who was informed and who 3wasn't informed. Before we do that, let's finish 4up with this letter. Point 5 states: 5 "It is my intent to 6 discreetly recognize Corporal 7 Rohmer and Corporal Hillier 8 through the presentation of a 9 Commanding Officer's Coin for 10 their actions in response to 11 this situation." 12 Are you aware as to whether that 13ever happened? 14 A. I seem to remember doing that 15in my office so that no one else would be aware. 16Essentially, these two corporals saved Corporal 17Langridge's life and I didn't want to have a parade 18to show that because that would be counter to 19paragraph 4, so I tried to recognize them 20discreetly. 21 Q. In general, were you in a 22position to follow Corporal Langridge's progress 23following this incident and to monitor what was 24happening both in a positive and in a negative 25sense?

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 81 2 3 4 5 1 A. As commanding officer, I 2would have been briefed. The regiment was broken 3up into a number of squadrons, as you probably 4know, one headquarter squadron that Corporal 5Langridge was in was commanded by Major Jared. 6There were three tank squadrons: A reconnaissance 7squadron, then my regimental headquarter, so 8information on Corporal Langridge or other soldiers 9would have come to me through my staff or through 10my officers commanding. 11 Q. I understand that any 12information would have come to you would 13necessarily, given your time commitments, be brief 14and to the point and as needed. 15 But let me just ask you: If there 16were suicide attempts subsequent to this first one, 17would you have expected to be briefed about those? 18 A. Yes, especially since I would 19have ordered a summary investigation about it. 20 Q. If there were 21hospitalizations, given the history, would you be 22expected to be briefed about those? 23 A. I would like to think so, but 24there are some limits of the doctor-patient 25confidentiality.

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 82 2 3 4 5 1 Q. Before we go and explore some 2of those incidents, there is one more letter I 3would just briefly like to review with you. That's 4at tab 52. This is a letter signed by Colonel 5Vance who was the commanding officer of the 6Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group, so I guess he 7was the base commander. Would that be the right 8way of referring to him? 9 A. No. He was the brigade 10commander. 11 Q. Brigade commander. Sorry. 12This letter was, as I say, goes under Colonel 13Vance's signature and its distributed -- we don't 14know in detail to whom, but we know it was 15distributed at least to the adjutant at LDSH. I 16assume that you would have been at least brief 17about this letter. 18 A. Yes, I would have read it, 19yes. 20 Q. Just a couple of things that 21I would like to ask you about in terms of your 22understanding of it. Colonel Vance concurs with 23the findings of the investigating officer. In 24particular, he lists a number of findings. At (c), 25he states:

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 83 2 3 4 5 1 "There appears to be a prima 2 fascia case to apply a 3 military nexus to the 4 reasoning for his attempted 5 suicide, but there are other 6 issues including alcohol and 7 family that are also 8 present." 9 From your perspective, what was 10the importance or lack of importance of finding a 11military nexus in the suicide attempt? 12 A. To me personally, it's not 13important. It wasn't important to me whether he 14had issues that were related to the military or 15not, sort of the sentiment that are expressed in my 16letter on paragraph 3 that we looked at a few 17minutes ago; that my focus was just on making sure 18he got the help he needed and trying to get him 19well. 20 Q. Your letter in fact sets out 21a number issues that could have contributed to 22Corporal Langridge attempting to harm himself, and 23some of them are military nature, some of them are 24of a personal nature. 25 Am I correct in understanding that

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 84 2 3 4 5 1your view was that it was a combination of factors 2that some of which came from the military, but some 3of which were outside of the military's control? 4 A. That was my understanding. 5 Q. Paragraph 3, Colonel Vance 6makes an observation and I would like you to 7comment on: 8 "I am pleased with the 9 support that Corporal 10 Langridge has been getting 11 from his peers, but his 12 further medical and mental 13 healthcare is well beyond the 14 capabilities of his unit. As 15 such, I reserve further 16 comment and direction on his 17 treatment and prognosis for 18 recovery to the medical 19 community." (As read) 20 This is a theme that we have heard 21a good deal about up to now and I suspect we will 22continue to hear throughout the course of these 23hearings. 24 I wanted to get your perspective 25on the respect roles of military community and the

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 85 2 3 4 5 1medical community in the management of a member 2like Corporal Langridge who appears to have had 3both mental health challenges and addictions 4challenges. What was your view, first of all, of 5what the respective role were, and whether those 6roles were being discharged in a functional way? 7 A. Simply, the medical system 8had a responsibility to take care of his medical 9psychiatric treatment, and at the unit, within the 10limitations provided by the medical community, we 11would try to tailor his employment. That was a 12split, if you will. 13 Q. That raises the issue of the 14relationship between the two. Were you satisfied 15that there was the ability to engage in as much 16communication as was necessary to allow each side 17of the house to do its job properly with respect to 18Corporal Langridge? 19 A. Not completely. As a 20commanding officer, I would have liked to have more 21medical information so that I could tailor Corporal 22Langridge's employment appropriately, but I 23understand there were some limitations of 24doctor-patient confidentiality that could not be 25breached.

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 86 2 3 4 5 1 Q. Let's talk about a couple of 2incidents that we have heard in our hearings up to 3now that occurred in Corporal Langridge's life. 4 We know that at some point in 5October, the RSM dispatched a soldier, a sergeant 6to find Corporal Langridge because his whereabouts 7were unknown and he had missed a medical 8appointment. The soldier arrived at Corporal 9Langridge's residence. She found him in a drowsy 10state, had some difficulty rousing him a second, 11and after rousing him the first time, called for 12guidance, and as a result of that guidance, she 13called the emergency authorities. 14 Corporal Langridge was taken to 15the Royal Alexandra Hospital, where under military 16escort, he was admitted for a short stay and 17subsequently discharged. Those facts, there seems 18to be no controversy at all about. 19 In such circumstances, would you 20have expected a report to be made to the chain of 21command with respect to Corporal Langridge and what 22had happened to him and the steps that have been 23taken for him? 24 A. Do you mean a report from the 25medical authorities?

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 87 2 3 4 5 1 Q. No. A report from the 2military side of the house given that the RSM had 3dispatched the sergeant, the sergeant had found 4Corporal Langridge in circumstances where he 5clearly was -- to use the colloquialism -- out of 6it to the extent that he needed hospitalization for 7a three day period. 8 Is that something that should have 9been reported up the chain of command? 10 A. What I remember from that 11incident is that Corporal Langridge missed an 12appointment. We knew he had an alcohol and 13substance abuse problem and, therefore, wasn't 14surprising to find him groggy in the morning. 15 We thought it was more the result 16of a hard late night of drinking and substance 17abuse more than anything else, so, no, I didn't 18expect any other kind of report. 19 Q. As we now know, Corporal 20Langridge had in fact taken a large quantity of 21prescription medication. As it turns out, it 22wasn't a medication that endangered his life, but 23it would appear as though this was a suicide 24attempt. 25 But from what I understand, it

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 88 2 3 4 5 1wasn't understood to be such because of your 2general background and understanding or the 3military's general background and understanding 4that Corporal Langridge had substance abuse 5problems. 6 You didn't have an expectation 7that there would be a report, and obviously if 8there was no report -- that there would be an 9awareness that this may be a suicide attempt, and 10if there was no awareness of his suicide attempt, 11there wouldn't be a summary investigation called. 12 But if I understand your earlier 13evidence correctly, if it were understood that this 14was a suicide attempt, there should have been a 15summary investigation. 16 A. Correct, I would have ordered 17one. 18 Q. Let's move forward a little 19bit. The next incident of significance, I believe, 20was Corporal Langridge's stay at a residential 21treatment facility in British Columbia that 22specializes in substance abuse issues. 23 Was it known to the chain of 24command? In other words, were you informed that 25Corporal Langridge was going on such a course?

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 89 2 3 4 5 1 A. I don't think I was directly 2informed, but I sort of made the guess, if you 3will. 4 Q. What happened, as we now 5know, is that after a very short stay, Corporal 6Langridge discharged himself and made his way back 7eventually to Edmonton and to the base. 8 Were you kept informed of the fact 9that he had in fact taken himself out of treatment 10early on and was now back on the base? 11 A. Yes, I was. 12 Q. Shortly thereafter, we have 13heard that Corporal Langridge may have attempted to 14harm himself at his residence by attempting to hang 15himself and that he was admitted to the Royal 16Alexandra Hospital in February of 2008. Do you 17recall being informed of this fact? 18 A. No. 19 Q. This morning we heard from 20the chaplain, Padre Hubbard, who told us that he 21went up his own chaplaincy chain of command to 22report the fact that Corporal Langridge had 23attempted to kill himself and that he was now in 24hospital, and he then informed us that he thought 25that the military chain of command would have been

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 90 2 3 4 5 1aware, but it soon became known to him that it 2wasn't aware because his superior in the chaplaincy 3had reported the information from Padre Hubbard to 4the base commander. 5 Padre Hubbard was then engaged in 6a conversation by the adjutant, Captain Lubiniecki, 7who had admonished himself for not reporting 8through the military chain of command such that the 9base commander would have known about this incident 10before you knew about the incident, and that's 11really why I'm asking you because it would appear 12that Captain Lubiniecki's concern was that you 13hadn't been informed, whereas your superior had, 14but it now appears that you never were informed. 15 A. I don't remember being 16informed of a suicide attempt in February. 17 Q. So let's take yourself out of 18the equation. We know that Captain Lubiniecki was 19informed. Would you have expected that he would 20have reported this up? 21 A. Yes. 22 MS RICHARDS: With all due 23respect, Captain Lubiniecki testified before this 24Commission and this evidence from padre was never 25put to him, and so I don't think it's --

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 91 2 3 4 5 1 MR. FREIMAN: It was put to him. 2I'm sorry. It was put directly to him. 3 MS RICHARDS: I don't think this 4new evidence about the base commander and the issue 5about whether there were concerns because Captain 6Lubiniecki's testimony on this issue was a 7different than the padre's, and that's my point, so 8to assert that we now know, I believe there is some 9conflict in the evidence on that. 10 MR. FREIMAN: At the very least, 11we know that there was a conversation between 12Captain Lubiniecki and the padre. 13 Q. Let us, just as a 14hypothetical, because my friend characterizes the 15evidence in a way that is different from my 16recollection of it. But as a hypothetical, if the 17facts were as the padre reported them, would you 18have expected that a summary investigation should 19have been called to that incident? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. During this time, we have 22also seen a number of pieces of documentary 23evidence of members of the base addiction clinic 24expressing alarm and concern for the safety of 25Corporal Langridge.

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 92 2 3 4 5 1 Just as a start, from your 2understanding, what were the lines of communication 3between the base addiction counsellors and the 4military chain of command? The reason I'm asking 5is that there seems to be some ambiguity as to 6whether the base addictions counsellors were 7members of the medical community or not. 8 Did you have an understanding as 9to whether base addictions counsellors were in a 10position to communicate with the military chain of 11command about issues that they were aware of? 12 A. I think in general terms, 13they did not to maintain some confidentiality and 14the information that was passed to them about 15people who were having problems. 16 Q. So it would not have been 17your expectation that a base addictions counsellor 18with concerns would have had some way of conveying 19those concerns to the military chain of command? 20 A. No, that wasn't my 21expectation. 22 Q. Let's fast forward for a 23moment to the next admission that we know of for 24Corporal Langridge in connection with his problems. 25We are aware that Corporal Langridge was discharged

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 93 2 3 4 5 1from the Royal Alexandra Hospital on the 4th of 2February over the objections, one should say, of 3his mother, and we heard this morning of the padre. 4 He was discharged, but the very 5next day, he presented himself to the Alberta 6Hospital in Edmonton. After examination, he was 7admitted and retained on an involuntary certificate 8for a period of 30 days, and that 30-day period 9takes us down to the 5th of March, 2008. 10 First, can you remember whether 11you were made aware of the fact that Corporal 12Langridge was now at the Alberta Hospital on a 1330-day certificate? 14 A. No. 15 Q. We have heard in these 16hearings that toward the end of that 30-day period, 17questions arose as to what would happen next with 18Corporal Langridge, and we have heard that Corporal 19Langridge was requesting that he be sent for 20additional residential treatment perhaps in British 21Columbia, and there has been a suggestion it might 22have been in Ontario, and that he conveyed that 23request from the Alberta Hospital while he was 24still an involuntary patient there. Were you made 25aware of that request at the time that it was made?

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 94 2 3 4 5 1 A. Not at the time, no. 2 Q. We have also heard perhaps 3some conflicting evidence as to what the decision 4was with respect to Corporal Langridge, but we know 5that Corporal Langridge was discharged from the 6Alberta Hospital back to the base on the 5th of 7March, 2008, and at that point, questions arose as 8to how he was to be -- I will try to use a neutral 9term -- re-integrated into the life on the base, 10and what, if anything would happen subsequently. 11 As the questions arose about 12conditions under which Corporal Langridge would 13serve, were you kept apprised of that, or did you 14just find out about it after the fact? 15 A. I was apprised of the final 16list of conditions and that there were some 17negotiations back and forth with the medical staff. 18 Q. Perhaps you could tell us 19what your recollection is of the briefing that you 20got on this point. 21 A. My recollection is that the 22regimental sergeant-major Doug Ross briefed me that 23the condition that you are well-aware of that 24Corporal Langridge would live in the duty shack. 25He would report every two hours and that was an

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 95 2 3 4 5 1order to provide some structure, but yet to try to 2prevent another suicide attempt like the one in 3June where he had driven away. 4 We knew that if he was away for 5over two hours that there was a possibility that he 6was off trying that same type of thing again, but 7we wanted to give him a certain amount of freedom 8because the medical opinion was that we shouldn't 9be watching him 24/7 because it would make his -- 10essentially they said it would make his depression 11worse, if I remember correctly. 12 Q. Where does that information 13come from to you of the medical community -- the 14statement as you put it, keeping him under a watch 1524/7 would make his depression worse? 16 A. That came to me through Doug 17Ross. 18 Q. I'm not going to ask you for 19the details, but did you do anything to satisfy 20yourself as to the legal dimension of the 21conditions that were being imposed? 22 A. I'm not sure if I was aware 23at the time. I'm aware now, so there are 24potentially some things influencing my memory, but 25I seem to recall someone had mentioned that this

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 96 2 3 4 5 1was run past our JAG legal officer as well. 2 Q. You were briefed on these 3conditions. Were you briefed at all as these 4conditions were implemented up to the date of 5Corporal Langridge's suicide? 6 A. Yes, I remember getting an 7update every few days on how things were going, 8whether he was abiding by the conditions and that 9sort of thing. 10 Q. What's your recollection of 11those briefings? What were you told? 12 A. Essentially, my recollection 13was that he was sort of abiding by the conditions, 14and I think at one point, he had requested an 15adjustment of some of the conditions and there was 16some more discussions with the medical officers. I 17don't think any changes were made at that time. 18 Q. That's correct. Were you 19made aware of the fact that during this period of 20time, Corporal Langridge, first of all, repeatedly 21asked to be sent to hospital? 22 A. No, I was not. 23 Q. Were you told during this 24period of time that in fact Corporal Langridge was 25admitted to hospital for a three day stay?

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 97 2 3 4 5 1 A. I don't remember that. I 2would like to think I would have been told that. 3That's probably a failing of my memory. 4 Q. For your information, he 5presented himself to CDUC, asked to be sent to the 6hospital, was told that he should return to his 7unit to abide by the conditions, thereupon said 8that he would rather kill himself than return to 9the unit and was sent to the Royal Alexandra 10Hospital where he was committed under an 11involuntary certificate. 12 Your recollection here today is 13that you do not have a recollection of being 14briefed on any of those circumstances. 15 A. I don't remember that to be 16honest. 17 Q. There has been some 18discussion again in these hearings as to what the 19military position was vis-à-vis Corporal 20Langridge's request for a further period of 21residential treatment. 22 Did anyone come to you and brief 23you on that issue that Corporal Langridge wanted to 24yet again go off and be sent either to British 25Columbia or to Ontario?

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 98 2 3 4 5 1 A. No. 2 Q. Since you weren't briefed, I 3have to ask you, although it seems to be a fair 4inference. No one talked to you about the 5conditions as being, as one note describes it, a 6trial of good behaviour to see if Corporal 7Langridge was capable of going for a residential 8treatment. 9 A. I didn't see the two linked 10that clearly. I understood that the conditions 11could be relaxed if he was responding to a more 12structured regiment of life. If he was able to, 13you know, stay off drugs and stay sober, then we 14would look at relaxing conditions, but I didn't see 15a link between those and the rehab treatment. 16 Q. Would it be fair to say, 17then, that from your perspective, the conditions 18were imposed in order to try to change Corporal 19Langridge's behaviour and turn him into a more 20responsible person? 21 A. Yes, we were trying to 22provide some control measures to help him sort of 23get a grip on his life, get his life under control. 24 Q. But that had nothing to do 25with any further treatment that you were aware of.

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 99 2 3 4 5 1 A. No. In my view, any time 2that he would have been ready for further 3treatment, he should have gone. That's up to the 4medical authorities to assess. 5 Q. I was going to ask you: 6Whose call would it be as to whether to spend 7another $50,000 on Corporal Langridge for further 8residential treatment? 9 A. I believe that would have 10been our medical officer's call. 11 Q. Would there be any need to 12consult with the military side of the house? 13 A. No, I think he would just let 14us know, similar to the first time he was sent to 15British Columbia. 16 Q. There has also been some 17discussion about a suicide watch and whether there 18was one, and we have had other discussions as to 19whether it would be a good idea. 20 Did you ever have discussions with 21RSM Ross or anyone else about the concept of -- 22well, you have told us the medical community said 23no suicide watch. Let me modify my question: By 24the time the sergeant-major was briefing you about 25the conditions, was there any remaining open

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 100 2 3 4 5 1question about the possibility of mounting a 24/7 2watch? Was that still in the cards? 3 A. It was made quite clear by 4the medical community that we should not be doing 5that, so that was not in our plans, but I had 6understood that there was a list prepared should 7the situation change, if things deteriorated. 8That's more a contingency more than anything else. 9 Q. Is that your deduction now 10looking at the material, or is that specifically 11what the RSM told you at the time? 12 A. I think it's probably my 13deduction now looking at the material. It's hard 14to differentiate to what happened four years ago 15with what I have been reading in the last few 16months. 17 Q. Again, when you say the 18medical community was very clear, this is your 19reporting what the RSM told you. Did you have any 20actual discussions with the medical community? 21 A. I didn't speak directly with 22the doctor, no. 23 Q. Turning our focus back to 24those conditions. Did you have any concerns about 25the propriety of those conditions?

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 101 2 3 4 5 1 A. They are highly unusual. We 2have never done anything like this before, but it 3was the best that we could come up between the unit 4and the doctor to try to provide some kind of 5control measures in an attempt to assist Corporal 6Langridge. 7 It was uncomfortable in a sense 8that we had never done this type of thing before. 9It's a restriction of his freedoms, but we saw what 10could happen when he had too much freedom, if you 11will. 12 Q. Did you ever address either 13with other people or just in terms of your own 14thought process what would happen next? The 15conditions are imposed. You say if Corporal 16Langridge was able to show that he could abide by 17them, you would expect them to be relaxed. What if 18he couldn't abide by them? 19 A. It depends how he doesn't 20abide by them, if you will. If there were 21indications that he was more of a danger to 22himself, then it would become a medical issue, but 23if he was not reporting appropriately or so on, if 24you are asking about sort of disciplinary action or 25that type of thing, that wasn't something that was

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 102 2 3 4 5 1even coming to mind because I didn't think he was 2in a state of mind that would be responsive to that 3kind of thing anyway. 4 Q. That may be part of my 5question; it's what your assessment was of his 6state of mind. You have told us that he wasn't in 7a state of mind where he would be a subject of 8discipline, but did you conclude that he was in a 9state of mind where he could actually pull himself 10together using the assistance of these measures? 11 A. Yes. I was optimistic that 12perhaps if he could with enough control measures in 13place, not have access to his drug dealer or that 14kind of thing, not get access to drugs, that maybe 15he could pull out of this. 16 Q. Did you, then, consider that 17these were apt means to prevent Corporal Langridge 18from getting access to drugs? 19 A. The only way to be sure would 20have been to watch him 24/7, which we couldn't do, 21so we tried to strike a balance. 22 Q. Let me be frank, and maybe 23you have a different perspective. It seems to me 24that measures that allow Corporal Langridge on 25weekends, let's just talk about that, to be on his

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 103 2 3 4 5 1own for two hours at a time don't seem like much of 2an obstacle to calling up one of his dealers and 3saying, "I will meet you at the corner of 100 and 4101st in 15 minutes" and buying a supply of drugs 5and being back in plenty of time to report. 6 A. True. But I would think that 7there would be indications that he is using drugs 8that could have been reported. 9 Q. Of course those could have 10been reported whether or not he was under control 11measures as well. 12 A. Well, if we saw him every two 13hours, we are more likely to notice that he was 14abusing substances. 15 Q. I understand. I would just 16like to ask you to look at a note that there would 17be no way you would have seen at the time, but this 18is at tab 14. 19 This is a consultation report that 20was authored by Dr. Yaltho who was a psychiatrist 21on call who saw Corporal Langridge on the 11th of 22March, which was the day that he presented himself 23at the Royal Alexandra Hospital saying he would 24rather kill himself than go back to work. 25 Probably in fairness, I should

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 104 2 3 4 5 1just read the entire first part of the note. I 2have done this a couple of times, which is why I 3think I can make out the handwriting, although I'm 4not certain. Dr. Yaltho says: 5 "Twenty-eight year old 6 military service man, 7 recently separated from his 8 wife; brought to the 9 emergency for depression, 10 anxiety, PTSD and suicidal 11 thoughts." 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: Colonel Drapeau 13had to leave for a second. 14 MR. FREIMAN: Why don't we just 15take a little break? 16 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. We will 17take 15 minutes, if we could. 18--- Recess taken at 2:11 p.m. 19--- Upon resuming at 2:33 p.m. 20 MR. FREIMAN: 21 Q. Colonel, I guess it's because 22we had the padre here earlier in the day that I 23feel an impulse to confess, and my confession is 24that rather than spend the break profitably making 25sure I could read this handwriting, I have spent on

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 105 2 3 4 5 1another issue, so I may still not be perfect in the 2handwriting but let's try it. We are at tab 14: 3 "Twenty-eight year old 4 military service man, 5 recently separated from his 6 wife; brought to the 7 emergency for depression, 8 anxiety, PTSD and suicidal 9 thoughts. 'Can't take army 10 stuff anymore.' He 11 complained of crying spells, 12 chest pain, nightmare, 13 sweating, less sleep, less 14 memory and less energy. 15 Although he was a heavy 16 alcoholic, he drinks seldom 17 now, but indulges in cocaine 18 (last time yesterday) and 19 cannabis. He had -- it could 20 be two or could be many -- 21 previous admissions to RAH 22 and was discharged from the 23 Alberta Hospital Edmonton 24 last Friday by Doctor Sowa. 25 He did not attend his AA

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 106 2 3 4 5 1 meeting and had two drinks 2 yesterday. His medication 3 are -- and there is a list of 4 medication." (As read) 5 He says: 6 "One of them helps with 7 sweating and he has been 8 compliant with his 9 medications. His common law 10 wife, a secretary, left him 11 when he was hospitalized in 12 February. He was in 13 Afghanistan for six months in 14 2000 and something and in 15 Bosnia in 2001. His younger 16 brother is handicapped. Mom 17 is on -- and there is a 18 medication. On examination, 19 a young Caucasian male in 20 army uniform being watched by 21 a serviceman. Depressive, 22 anxious, and suicidal. 23 Frustrated that the army 24 would not release him after 25 eight years and three years

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 107 2 3 4 5 1 previously in the reserves. 2 No psychotic thoughts." (As 3 read) 4 The recommendation is at the end. 5He says: 6 "I believe release from the 7 army on medical grounds is 8 appropriate." 9 And it's signed. The reason I 10asked you to look at this, and I wanted the whole 11in so you had the entire context, is several 12mentions of being fed up with the army, wanting 13out, being frustrated and not being able to be 14released, and then there is discussion at the end 15of a medical release. 16 Were you at all aware of any 17discussions that were being held either at Corporal 18Langridge's instance or at someone else's instance 19about releasing Corporal Langridge, and if so, 20under what conditions? 21 A. I was not aware, no. 22 Q. We did hear from, I believe 23it was, Major Jared that Major Jared was 24contemplating initiating administrative proceedings 25based among other things on financial issues that

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 108 2 3 4 5 1Corporal Langridge was facing, not on his 2addictions issues. Do I understand, then, that 3there was no consultation with you about that? 4 A. No, there would have been 5consultation. It would have had to go through my 6office if it went anywhere. 7 Q. Just to close the loop, you 8were not aware of issues about a medical release. 9 A. No, I was not. 10 Q. I would like to turn, then, 11to the events after Corporal Langridge's death. I 12understand that by choice, you wished to be 13involved in the notification of family members. 14 Can you tell us your recollection 15of the events and the issues surrounding that 16matter? 17 A. It's normal practice for the 18commanding officer to carry out the notification if 19it's possible depending on the geography. 20 In this case, I made a phone call 21to the Fynes as per the personal emergency 22notification form and arranged to have a 23notification team from Victoria to see them. I 24then notified the common law spouse afterwards as 25well.

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 109 2 3 4 5 1 Q. From your understanding, I 2understand you are not a lawyer, so I'm just asking 3from your understanding, what document or documents 4or what considerations were material to the 5decision as to whom to inform and in what order? 6 A. In terms of notification? 7 Q. Yes. 8 A. The service member completes 9a personal emergency notification form, and that's 10the form I followed, but because he had a common 11law spouse in addition, I notified her, but I 12notified her afterwards because the wishes 13expressed by Corporal Langridge were notification 14would be to his stepfather and then his mother. 15 Q. We have recently heard 16evidence about newly discovered document, which was 17a personal emergency notification form that 18Corporal Langridge had filled out in conjunction 19with his attendance at the PLQ course that he had 20to leave because of anxiety, and we heard that it 21was maintained in a file with other documents 22related to that course. 23 Based on your experience, if you 24had been aware of that form, which post-dates the 25form in Corporal Langridge's personnel file, would

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 110 2 3 4 5 1that have made any difference to you in terms of 2notification? 3 A. I would have followed the 4form with the latest date on it assuming it was 5signed by Corporal Langridge. 6 Q. So it would not have made a 7difference to you that the latest dated form was 8for purposes of a specific course that Corporal 9Langridge was attending? 10 A. No, it wouldn't matter. 11 Q. The next step, as I 12understand it, was the appointment of an assisting 13officer, or in this case, of two assisting 14officers. Can you share with us the thought 15process that went into that and your view of what 16the role of an assisting officer is? 17 A. Okay. An assisting officer 18is someone who helps to coordinate administrative 19support from the military to next of kin who would 20be either a beneficiary of some kind of a 21compensation, death benefits, that kind of thing, 22or in funeral planning should the next of kin want 23some military representation at a funeral, so he is 24there to help them with the administration, help 25fill out forms and help them understand the

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 111 2 3 4 5 1entitlements and that type of thing. Normally we 2assign this to subordinates at the regiment that is 3sort of troop leader rank, lieutenants. 4 Q. In this case, what decision 5did you make with respect to assisting officers? 6 A. This case, this was the 7fourth death at the regiment under my command. The 8first three had been soldiers who died in 9Afghanistan, so a number of my officers had done 10this before, and I believe it was Lieutenant Adam's 11turn. 12 Then an assisting officer was 13appointed by another authority in British Columbia 14for the Fynes family so that they would have 15someone who lived close to them. 16 Q. We will get back to the issue 17of assisting officers and especially to the Fynes' 18assisting officer in a moment. This might be a 19good time just to clarify one thing: You have told 20us that it would have been the authorities in 21British Columbia who identified the assisting 22officer to help the Fynes. 23 In terms of reporting 24relationships, what was the reporting relationship 25for that assisting officer since at least on paper

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 112 2 3 4 5 1he wasn't under your command? 2 A. He would just coordinate with 3my adjutant, any support required. 4 Q. Before we get back to issues 5arising out of the assisting officers, if you look 6at tab 24, I think, it's the minutes of a -- I'm 7sorry. This is an invitation by Major Cadieu, as 8he then was, to a number of invitees to attend a 9casualty coordination meeting, which was intended 10to address a number of issues related to the 11upcoming funeral and preparations for the funeral 12for Corporal Langridge. 13 The final notation is: 14 "The commanding officer will 15 attend at his discretion, and 16 if he doesn't attend, will be 17 back briefed." (As read) 18 Did you in fact attend the 19casualty coordination meeting? 20 A. You know what, I'm not 21certain, but I don't think I did. I think Major 22Cadieu ran it. 23 Q. I guess that answers my 24second question, which would have been whether you 25had any recollection of the issues that were dealt

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 113 2 3 4 5 1with at the coordination meeting. 2 A. No. 3 Q. I think it's tab 27 that I'm 4going to ask you to look at in a minute. Tab 27 is 5an e-mail that you sent to Major Cadieu carbon 6copied to the adjutant. 7 You will see from the date, it's 8dated the 17th of March in the morning some time 9after 10:00 a.m. We saw the invitation that was 10issued by Major Cadieu, and that was for a casualty 11coordination meeting that was to be convened in the 12afternoon of the 17th, so this e-mail pre-dates the 13casualty coordination meeting and any discussion 14that might have been had there, and in it, you make 15observations about who the next of kin is. 16 In fact, you designate Ms 17Hamilton-Tree as the person whom it seems to you as 18the next of kin and therefore whose wish should be 19followed. What I would like to ask you is whether 20you recall the process you went through to come to 21this conclusion. 22 A. I just went through the 23applicable documents. We had a common law form 24showing that she was a spouse and a supplementary 25death benefit form showing her as the beneficiary.

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 114 2 3 4 5 1We had a will showing that the goods should go to 2his mother, and then we had a personal emergency 3notification form, which has no legal standing, so 4I didn't make a decision. I just followed what was 5on those forms. 6 Q. Again, I'm not going to ask 7you for the substance, but in coming to that 8conclusion, did you feel the need to obtain legal 9advice? 10 A. Yes, we did. 11 Q. Did you obtain legal advice? 12 A. I did. 13 Q. From your perspective, I 14think you have answered this question, but it was 15in the context of a longer answer. What was your 16understanding of the consequence of naming a person 17next of kin? 18 A. On what type of document? 19 Q. Of your determination, the 20determination that you made that based on the 21documentary evidence, Rebecca is the PNOK. What 22flows from that determination? 23 A. In this case, it gives her 24authority over the funeral arrangements. The 25disbursement of supplementary benefits and will are

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 115 2 3 4 5 1in accordance with a supplementary death benefit 2form and the will. Rebecca Hamilton-Tree being his 3spouse meant that she had final say over funeral 4arrangements. 5 Q. In terms of the personal 6notification emergency form, whether it's the one 7in the personnel file or the later one that we just 8discovered a while back, did that form, for your 9purposes, have any bearing on the decision as to 10who was going to be the primary next of kin? 11 A. It did not. That form has no 12legal standing. We have had soldiers who put their 13brother as the first person to be notified because 14they think that their mother would become 15hysterical, so they asked the brother to inform 16her, for example. That doesn't mean the brother is 17to receive any particular benefits, for example. 18 Q. We are talking about 19authority to make arrangements for the funeral. I 20have asked a number of people this question, and 21I'm not sure that I communicate very clearly 22because people had some difficulty with the 23concept. 24 The short form of the question is: 25When a soldier dies while on active service, who

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 116 2 3 4 5 1owns his funeral? Does the military own the 2funeral, or does the estate of the soldier or the 3family of the soldier own the funeral? 4 A. The family of the soldier 5does. 6 Q. The military's role is what? 7 A. Our role is to provide as 8much as or as little support as the family would 9like to see. We have had families who want no 10military involvement and we have had families who 11want a full military funeral and everything in 12between. 13 Q. There has been considerable 14discussion of the issue of a suicide note and what 15happened to the suicide note in this case. I may 16have misrecorded myself the applicable tab, but we 17have seen an e-mail chain -- just give me a second. 18 Actually, I don't have it. I will 19describe the e-mail chain because the people in 20this room will have seen this e-mail enough times 21to be sick of it anyway, and they will recognize 22it. 23 There is an e-mail chain at first 24instance is between Captain Lubiniecki and second 25lieutenant Adam Brown, who was the AO for Rebecca

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 117 2 3 4 5 1in which second lieutenant Brown, as he then was, 2asks a number of questions of Captain Lubiniecki. 3 One of them is: Was there a note 4left by Corporal Langridge? This e-mail chain is 5forwarded to a number of recipients of which you 6are one. Captain Lubiniecki addresses a number of 7issues about preparations for the funeral and the 8state of those preparations, and at the very end, 9he says, "I will look into Adam's questions." 10 The short question that I have for 11you is: Were you aware of any follow-up on second 12lieutenant Brown's questions about the existence of 13a suicide note? 14 A. No, I was not, and I was not 15aware of any suicide note until well, well after 16the fact. 17 Q. If I understand correctly, 18the first you heard about a suicide note as an 19issue would have been after you had left your 20position. 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. There were a number of 23emerging issues, and I'm not sure to what extent 24you would have been involved, so you will forgive 25me if I just ask you if you had any involvement or

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 118 2 3 4 5 1any knowledge about them. The first was the 2question of a will. 3 What was Corporal Langridge's 4final will? Which version of the document was the 5binding one? I will just give you a background. 6The will that was originally found was dated 2002, 7obviously some six years prior to the events in 8question. Were you aware of any issues relating to 9Corporal Langridge's will? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Associated with that issue 12was a series of issues that emerged as a result of 13Master Corporal Fitzpatrick reporting that while 14cleaning out his office, he discovered four 15documents which were in various states of 16completion, and the documents, whether they were 17valid or not, purported to be a personal emergency 18notification form, a memorial cross designation 19form, a will, and an SDB beneficiaries form. Were 20you aware of the discovery of those four new 21documents? 22 A. I think it was well after the 23funeral that I was aware, but my understanding is 24none of them were valid and none of them were 25completed or signed.

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 119 2 3 4 5 1 Q. Up to the time that you left 2your command, do I understand that that remained 3your understanding that none of the documents were 4valid and that the original documents still ruled? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. There subsequently arose a 7number of issues related to Corporal Langridge's 8furniture and effects, how they were stored, how 9they were inventoried, how they were preserved and 10whether there were any problems with any of those 11matters. Was any issue related to the inventory or 12the storage of Corporal Langridge's furniture and 13effects ever brought to your attention? 14 A. I was told that there was an 15inventory done of his effects as we have done with 16the other desks. Sadly this was becoming a fairly 17well practiced. We do a committee of adjustment 18and do an inventory of the soldier's belongings. 19As I recall, his belongings were placed into our 20quartermaster stores, so it's a heated building, so 21I thought it would have been fine there. 22 Q. Subsequently, issues emerged 23with respect to the death certificate that had been 24filled out at the funeral home. Were you aware of 25any issues arising with respect to the death

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 120 2 3 4 5 1certificates? 2 A. I heard about some concerns 3after the fact, but the common law spouse would 4have filled out that certificate with the funeral 5home. 6 Q. I'm just exploring now 7whether any of these issues would have come to your 8attention while you were a commanding officer. 9 A. I don't remember that coming 10to my attention before the end of June. 11 Q. I appreciate that it's 12difficult now that you have seen some of the 13documents to separate memory from which you have 14learned from the documents. 15 As you are aware, there have been 16a number of investigations by a number of bodies 17from summary investigations through to more formal 18NIS investigations through to a Board of Inquiry 19into various aspects of this matter. Were you 20asked to assist in any of those processes? 21 A. I was questioned by the Board 22of Inquiry. I was not questioned by the NIS, so 23just the BOI, I guess. 24 Q. I just have one additional 25topic area, and that actually concerns your

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 121 2 3 4 5 1position up to recently as executive assistant to 2the Vice Chief of Defence Staff. If you look at 3tab 57 with me, the topic here, really, is to be 4found on the last two pages. 5 The subject matter or the e-mail 6exchange that appears at tab 57 is entitled "Media 7Response Line" on the issue of the Military Police 8Complaints Commission to conduct a public interest 9investigation into Canadian Forces National 10Investigation Service's handling of the Corporal 11Langridge investigations. 12 The note provides background and 13then provides a number of key messages for the 14communications officer or whoever is to deal with 15the media with respect to that matter and there is 16two messages. First of all: 17 "Canadian Forces Provost 18 Marshal, who is the Commander 19 of the Canadian Forces 20 Military Police Group, is 21 aware of the Military Police 22 Complaints Commission's 23 intent to hold a public 24 interest investigation into a 25 complaint related to three

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 122 2 3 4 5 1 investigations conducted by 2 the Canadian Forces National 3 Investigation Service with 4 regards to the death of 5 Corporal Stuart Langridge." 6 That's message number one. 7Message number two is: 8 "The CF MP Group will fully 9 cooperate with the MPCC 10 during their investigation. 11 In their aim to contribute to 12 a climate of confidence in 13 military policy in Canada, 14 the MPCC provides valuable 15 civilian oversight of 16 military police on behalf of 17 Parliament." 18 That's the second message. 19 As I understand, as chance would 20have it, this was brought to your attention for 21approval. Can you explain what the role of VCDS 22was in connection with providing approval for media 23lines? 24 A. The Vice Chief of Defence 25Staff is the direct supervisor of the CF Provost

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 123 2 3 4 5 1Marshal, so public affairs products from all the 2sort of direct reports of the VCDS come through the 3VCDS office for approval. As chance would have it, 4I was the executive assistant to receive this note. 5 It was fairly safe since the 6message was simply saying that the Military Police 7Group would fully cooperate. I thought it was safe 8for me to approve it, but then I made it known to 9the Military Police Provost Marshal that I had been 10Corporal Langridge's CO and any documents relating 11to this case should go to Colonel Tammy Harris in 12her office so there wouldn't be any perception of 13conflict. 14 Q. Quite aside from your own 15involvement, tangential as it might have been in 16the events surrounding Corporal Langridge's 17suicide, did you have any thoughts or concerns 18about the VCDS even though he is the commanding 19officer, the next up for the Provost Marshal, 20appearing to involve itself in the affairs of an 21independent police force? 22 A. No, I had no concerns 23whatsoever. There was no involvement or 24interference with investigation. These were simply 25media response lines.

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 124 2 3 4 5 1 Q. Were there safeguards in 2place if communications were less anodyne and more 3substantive, or would they have come up through you 4regardless? 5 A. Just to ensure that there is 6no even any perception of a conflict, I just ask 7that anything related to this case bypass me. 8 Q. When I say you, I mean the 9office, office of the Vice Chief. 10 A. There might have been, but I 11don't think that the office of the Vice Chief would 12release anything to the media that was particularly 13sensitive on an ongoing Commission, so, no, I 14guess, is the short answer. 15 MR. FREIMAN: Thank you very much, 16Colonel. You have been extraordinarily patient 17with a number of very finicky questions that I have 18had to put to you. We appreciate this a great 19deal. 20 THE CHAIRPERSON: Colonel Drapeau? 21CROSS-EXAMINATION BY COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: 22 COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: Mr. Chair. 23 Q. Good afternoon, Colonel. 24Congratulation on your promotion. 25 A. Thank you.

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 125 2 3 4 5 1 Q. Let me just carry on with the 2questions that my friend just asked you about and 3your admission that in case of a possible conflict 4of interest, you just distance yourself, which 5speaks to you. 6 Go to page 723 of tab 57, and if 7you read that first e-mail at the top there from 8Major Proulx, who works for the Associate Deputy 9Minister Public Affairs, to a Captain Holder in the 10VCDS Provost Marshal shop. Obviously, Major Proulx 11did not share that. Could you read the second 12sentence on? Read it out loud if you can. 13 A. Okay. 14 "We can't maintain that the 15 CFNIS is an independent 16 investigative body during 17 events such as SANDTRAP, then 18 request permission through 19 the chain to provide a 20 common-sense response to a 21 story that threatens the 22 credibility of the 23 organization." 24 Q. From what I'm reading from 25it, and please tell me if you disagree with that,

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 126 2 3 4 5 1the public affair official on that particular file 2basically had some apprehension as to why should we 3be involved to begin with in it. 4 A. True. I suppose that's one 5public affair's Major's recommendation, but I think 6given the nature of the lines, to simply say that 7the Military Police Group is going to be 8cooperative is not jeopardizing or anything like 9that. 10 Q. Yes. I don't think it's an 11issue here. I think if I'm reading this properly, 12the line is: We shouldn't be offering advice to 13CFNIS as to maintain that it is an independent 14organization. That's the way I'm reading it in a 15more general sense. You don't have to agree with 16it. That's my reading of it or my interpretation 17of it. 18 A. I'm not clear what your 19question is to me though. 20 Q. My question: Do you agree or 21disagree with that caution? 22 A. I think in this case, I have 23no concerns with the Vice Chief's office approving 24this messages. 25 Q. But the caution would go

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 127 2 3 4 5 1along the same way as you have yourself, the 2caution is you don't want to get involved because 3of the, not conflict, but the appearance of a 4possible conflict. 5 A. I suppose hypothetically if 6there were points of substance, then I agree that 7the CFNIS shouldn't have to seek approval. This is 8more of a communication line than an investigative 9line. I see a distinction. 10 Q. Could you go to tab 17, 11please, and more specifically to the second page, 12paragraph 10. What it reads is: 13 "Commanding officers are 14 responsible to ensure that 15 suicide prevention is given 16 appropriate priority." (As 17 read) 18 We have discussed that before in 19your examination-in-chief, but I didn't hear you 20say whether or not it had been given priority under 21your command. 22 A. I think it had been given 23appropriate priority. We have a lot of conflicting 24demands on time. The unit was training multiple 25tank squadrons for employment to Afghanistan, so

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 128 2 3 4 5 1what we were able to do is provide some peer 2counselling training for a certain a people, have 3some discussions at sort of our weekly safety 4workshops, but that was the extent of it. 5 Q. Would your priority change, 6it would be adjusted either upwards or downwards 7during the course of your two years in command? 8 A. It was not, but if there had 9been more suicide cases prevalent in the brigade, 10for example, I'm sure I would have revisited. 11 Q. Can you turn to tab 67, 12please, more specifically to paragraph 4 where it 13reads: 14 "I have directed my Adjutant 15 to examine the standard 16 operating procedures involved 17 in the reaction to, and 18 reporting of attempted 19 suicides in order to ensure 20 confidentiality of the 21 issue..." (As read) 22 That was written and signed on 23your behalf, which you accept accountability for 24it, correct? 25 A. Yes.

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 129 2 3 4 5 1 Q. Why is this letter not 2Protected B or shown as confidential? 3 A. I think this particular 4paragraph speaks to a procedure for future cases. 5The information of Corporal Langridge's suicide had 6already unfortunately come out, so it would be 7subsequent information that would have to be 8protected more than this one. 9 Q. Is it your position to say 10that all of the information about Corporal 11Langridge contained in this document is not 12protected, or it was just simply an oversight from 13having it classified as a Protected B document? 14 A. To be honest, when I look 15again at paragraph 2, I think it probably should 16have been a classified Protected B. 17 Q. Pardon me? 18 A. Looking at paragraph 2 again, 19I think it probably should have been classified 20Protected B. 21 Q. I want to go to the 22conditions that were imposed that you were briefed 23on by the RSM Ross to Stuart Langridge last week or 24so of his life. In your mind as a commanding 25officer, were these conditions or measures orders?

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 130 2 3 4 5 1 A. I would have to say yes, the 2short answer, because they were direction given by 3the regimental sergeant-major. Now, they were 4orders that Corporal Langridge agreed to. 5 Q. Right. But they were orders. 6 A. At the end of the day, they 7were orders. 8 Q. What in your estimation would 9have happened or you think would have happened as 10an experienced officer and so on had these orders 11not been obeyed by Stuart Langridge? 12 A. As I mentioned before, I 13don't think we would have taken any disciplinary 14action. I don't think he was in the frame of mind 15that this would have -- 16 Q. So you don't think he would 17have been charged. 18 A. No. 19 Q. Would you have taken 20administrative action releasing him compulsory for 21administrative reasons? 22 A. No, I would not do that 23because Corporal Langridge had medical issues that 24needed to be resolved before he could be released, 25in my view. That's what we would do. We would try

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 131 2 3 4 5 1to help him with the medical problems, and only 2then, I think we would consider release. 3 Q. If Stuart had asked for a 4voluntary release, you as a commanding officer, 5would you have approved it? 6 A. I probably would not have. I 7would have sought medical advice, but I would have 8preferred to see him go through some rehabilitation 9and alcohol and drug counselling and that kind of 10thing, achieve some success, and then perhaps if he 11wanted to release, then release. 12 COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: That's all 13my questions. Thank you. 14 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms Richards? 15CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS RICHARDS: 16 MS RICHARDS: Thank you. 17 Q. I just have a few areas that 18I wanted to go back and clarify from your testimony 19earlier. 20 When you were discussing the 21positive sensitive drug test for Corporal Langridge 22with Commission counsel and he had asked you about 23your view of the length of time it took to get 24through the process, and I believe he put to you 25the fact that in that period of time, there would

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 132 2 3 4 5 1have been a person with a substance problem that 2needed addressing who wasn't getting any help per 3se. 4 Could you just clarify: What was 5counselling and probation under the administrative 6process versus a medical referral that Corporal 7Langridge would receive? 8 A. Okay. Counselling and 9probation is perhaps a misleading name because it's 10an administrative procedure, so a person can be on 11counselling and probation for any number of 12problems or challenges would it be financial 13administrative problems, or in this case, a drug 14problem, and all it means is that there are regular 15follow-up sessions at least monthly where we check 16on the process of an individual, give him an action 17plan to help him with whatever the shortcomings are 18and then follow-up on those on a regular process. 19 We annotate it, we ask the person 20to sign so that there is a record, so it's purely 21an administrative process. It's not to be confused 22with a sort of a drug counselling process that 23would have helped him with a cocaine habit, for 24example. 25 Q. If I could ask you to turn up

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 133 2 3 4 5 1tab 41. Can you just clarify whether or not 2Corporal Langridge had already in fact been 3referred for medical assessment and treatment for 4his potential addiction issue? 5 A. I'm trying to remember if I 6get the sequence right in my mind, but I thought he 7had already been. When he tested positive to 8drugs, it was not a surprise. 9 Q. Okay. So certainly after he 10tested positive -- 11 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms Richards, 12could you just repeat what your question was again? 13I just missed it. It's my fault. 14 MS RICHARDS: Okay. 15 Q. I just want to confirm 16whether or not that Colonel was aware of whether 17Corporal Langridge was receiving medical treatment 18for the addictions issue in that 10-month time 19period, if that's an easier way to put it. 20 A. Yes, I believe he was. 21 Q. So when I look at this form 22at tab 41, I understand, then, upon receipt of the 23positive safety sensitive test, one of the steps 24you took as a CO was to refer him for medical 25assessment.

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 134 2 3 4 5 1 A. Correct. 2 Q. And that's separate and apart 3from the counselling and probation process that we 4have been talking about administratively. 5 A. That's correct, yes. 6 Q. You were asked a number of 7questions by Commission counsel about -- certain 8propositions were put to you about medical 9information or information that Corporal Langridge 10had disclosed and whether you had been briefed up 11on that information. You recall that? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. For example, you were asked 14about some information that Corporal Langridge had 15disclosed on March 11th that he would rather kill 16himself than go back to the unit. If that 17information had been disclosed to a medical 18personnel, would you expect to be briefed up on 19that? 20 A. Not necessarily, no. That 21would be at the discretion of the medical officer 22and I don't think they would. I think if that were 23the case, the medical officer would probably send 24me one of the one liner notes that are in this 25document saying, "Corporal Langridge won't report

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 135 2 3 4 5 1to work for the next certain period of time," and 2he would probably be admitted somewhere, I would 3have thought, but I wouldn't necessarily be told 4directly by a medical officer that he had suicidal 5thoughts, for example. 6 Q. Similarly, you were asked 7whether or not you would expect to be briefed up 8that Corporal Langridge had made request while he 9was in the Alberta Hospital to attend a residential 10treatment. 11 If Corporal Langridge had made 12those requests to medical personnel at the base, 13would your answer be the same? Would you expect 14medical personnel to brief up on that information? 15 A. They wouldn't necessarily 16tell me exactly. They may again send me a note 17that Corporal Langridge will be away from work for 18a certain period of time, and then they would send 19them on that course. 20 Q. So when you talk about your 21expectations to be briefed up on issues, am I 22correct that those expectations would be that when 23members within the regiment had knowledge of 24certain information that it would brought forward 25to you?

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 136 2 3 4 5 1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. One of the allegations or 3issues that as arisen in this proceeding that I 4wanted to put to you directly is that the Canadian 5Forces ordered Corporal Langridge out of the 6hospital on March 5, 2008. I want to put that 7proposition to you and see if you are aware of or 8if in your knowledge if anybody in your regiment 9ordered Corporal Langridge out of the hospital. 10 A. No, I'm not aware of that and 11I can't imagine someone ordering Corporal Langridge 12or anyone out of the hospital. 13 Q. There is also some other 14information that has been filed before the 15Commission that likewise I wanted to give you an 16opportunity to address or respond to. I don't know 17if you knew Dennis Strilchuk who was a base 18addictions counsellor. 19 A. I did not. 20 Q. Mr. Strilchuk has sworn an 21affidavit in this proceeding and he has stated, 22first of all, that he had the authority to make the 23decision to put Corporal Langridge in the barracks. 24 In terms of your regiment or your 25regimental lines, do you have any view on whether

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 137 2 3 4 5 1or not a base addictions counsellor had the 2authority to assign one of your soldiers to the 3barracks? 4 A. No, he wouldn't have that 5authority. I suppose he can make a recommendation, 6but... 7 Q. Mr. Strilchuk has also stated 8in his affidavit that he had the ability to put 9patients we thought were at risk in jail and that 10he had, in his view, the defaulters' room was the 11jail and that the defaulters' room's was runned by 12the military police, and I wonder if you could just 13comment on whether or not that accords with your 14understanding. 15 A. No, that's not correct. The 16defaulters' room is not a jail. It's just a room 17beside where our duty staff lives. It's just a 18small sleeping accommodation with a closed door, 19like a small bedroom, and it's just runned by our 20duty staff. We have no military police in the 21unit. 22 Q. Similarly, Mr. Strilchuk 23states in his affidavit that he had put Corporal 24Langridge in jail, and he does use in quotation 25marks, on at least one occasion and possibly two

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 138 2 3 4 5 1occasions. 2 If one of the soldiers in your 3regiment had been placed under these types of 4restrictions, would you have been aware of that? 5 A. Yes, I would. 6 Q. Were you ever advised that 7that had occurred? 8 A. No. 9 Q. You were asked just very 10briefly some questions about the funeral 11arrangements and you were taken to an e-mail 12regarding your statement that as far as you were 13concerned, Rebecca Hamilton-Tree was the next of 14kin and her wishes had to be respected -- 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. -- with respect to the 17funeral. In your experience, how did the funeral 18arrangements unfold? 19 A. Because we had the common law 20spouse and a mother, we tried to develop sort of a 21cooperative approach. Each had an assisting 22officer and we tried to abide by the wishes of 23each. 24 For example, Ms Fynes did not want 25Corporal Hillier to be a pallbearer but Ms

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 139 2 3 4 5 1Hamilton-Tree did. As I understood, we came to a 2compromise that Corporal Hillier would attend but 3would not be directly involved as a pallbearer or 4any role such as that. 5 Ms Fynes asked to receive the 6beret and medals and Ms Hamilton-Tree agreed to 7that and asked for the flag that had been draped on 8the coffin, and both agreed, for example. I'm 9trying to think of what other kind of negotiation 10took place, but essentially, we asked both parties 11how they wanted the funeral to take place and they 12came to an agreement. 13 Q. At the time of the funeral, 14was it your understanding that the funeral that 15actually took place respected the wishes of both 16parties? 17 A. Yes, that was my 18understanding until after the fact. 19 Q. In that e-mail when you say 20that the wishes of Rebecca Hamilton-Tree would have 21to be respected, did it ever come to the point 22where that had to be invoked? 23 A. It did not. There was 24cooperation and consensus reached, but at the end 25of the day, if there had been a conflict, I would

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 140 2 3 4 5 1have gone with the wishes of Ms Hamilton-Tree. 2 Q. There is just one final issue 3that I also wanted to give you an opportunity to 4comment on. One of the central allegations before 5this Commission is that the National Investigation 6Service did not conduct their investigations in 7this case in an impartial or independent manner. 8 In particular, there is an 9allegation that there was a bias in favour of 10exonerating the Lord Strathcona's regiment. I'm 11wondering, first of all, from your experience 12dealing with the National Investigation Service, do 13you have any comment on the independence or the 14ability of the National Investigation Service to 15investigate your regiment? 16 A. They are an independent body 17and no one from my regiment would be able to 18influence them without themselves being charged 19with trying to influence an investigation. 20 Q. In the course of these 21proceedings, are you aware of can anybody including 22yourself from the regiment who applied any pressure 23or influence on the National Investigation Service 24in their investigations? 25 A. Not at all, no.

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 141 2 3 4 5 1 MS RICHARDS: Thank you very much. 2Those are all my questions. 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Freiman? 4RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. FREIMAN: 5 MR. FREIMAN: 6 Q. Just a couple of very brief 7questions arising from Ms Richards questions to 8you. Ms Richards attributed some question to me 9that may not have been quite in context in which I 10asked of you. 11 Let me try something else to 12ensure that we are on the same page. Ms Richards 13asked you whether you would have expected to be 14briefed up by members of the medical community, and 15as you indicated in your evidence in chief, you 16would not expect that because there was -- as it 17were a wall. 18 Let me ask you a slightly 19different question: In the event that members on 20the military side became aware from the medical 21community, whether properly or not, of information 22regarding Corporal Langridge and his state of mind, 23would you have expected that to be briefed up to 24you? 25 A. What type of information do

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 142 2 3 4 5 1you mean? 2 Q. I will give you the specific. 3We heard in evidence that the RSM had certain 4discussions with a physician at the CDUC regarding 5Corporal Langridge's state of mind and his 6assertion that he was going to kill himself. Would 7you have expected, whether that was an appropriate 8communication from the medical individual to the 9RSM or not, would you have expected that that 10information about Corporal Langridge would have 11been briefed up to you? 12 A. Again, I would say if it was 13information that people in my military chain of 14command had, I would have liked them to share it 15with me, yes. 16 Q. Finally, Ms Richards asked 17you some questions with the proposition that the 18military ordered Corporal Langridge back to his 19unit. Let me put this to you in words that more 20closely resemble what we see in hospital notes: 21There is a proposition by one of the physicians, in 22fact, the head psychiatrist treating Corporal 23Langridge at the Alberta Hospital in Edmonton, and 24I believe the exact words were, "Unfortunately, the 25military want him back."

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 143 2 3 4 5 1 To put a context on that, the 2sentence that precedes it is, "We were willing to 3keep Corporal Langridge at the hospital pending 4residential treatment," and the next line is, 5"Unfortunately, the military want him back." 6 I know that you weren't apprised 7of any of this, but in your view, was there some 8entity that would be capable of expressing the 9view, "We want Corporal Langridge back on the 10base"? 11 A. It would seem to me the only 12military entity that would make that that comment 13would be the military medical authority. 14 Q. Would the military medical 15authority need to consult with you before making 16that decision? 17 A. No. 18 MR. FREIMAN: Thank you. Those 19are my questions. 20QUESTIONS BY THE CHAIRPERSON: 21 THE CHAIRPERSON: 22 Q. Colonel, just on the suicide 23note. I think you said you weren't aware until 24after you left the position. 25 A. That's correct, sir.

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 144 2 3 4 5 1 Q. How long were you in Edmonton 2as CO? 3 A. As commanding officer for two 4years. I left in the end of June 2008. 5 Q. Just from past experiences in 6suicides, one of the general questions that is 7asked by family, by anybody who is associated with 8it, was there a note. I'm not hearing that 9yourself or other staff members would have asked 10that very simple question. Am I missing that, or 11is that something -- can you help me with that? 12 A. My understanding was there 13was no note, but I don't recall specifically asking 14myself. Maybe I trusted the military police at the 15scene to gather information and let us know if 16there was one, I suppose. I specifically don't 17remember asking if there was a note. 18 Q. Where would you have gotten 19the understanding that there was no note? 20 A. I don't remember, sir, to be 21honest. I don't remember. I don't know if someone 22said that no note was found or if just because I 23didn't hear about a note, I made the assumption 24that there was no note. 25 Q. It's just a question that is

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 145 2 3 4 5 1a very -- I'm sure you have probably experienced 2that and maybe asked that question to yourself of 3other circumstances and we are not hearing that and 4I'm surprised that people aren't hearing it for a 5year later or whatever the case is. 6 A. I wasn't aware of a note 7until I was already in Afghanistan in 09, so all 8that time, I thought there was no note. 9 Q. And that may have been your 10assumption. 11 A. It may have been. 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Colonel 13Drapeau, anything? 14 COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: No question. 15Thank you. 16 THE CHAIRPERSON: Colonel, as we 17said when we started, congratulations on your most 18recent appointment. Your list of postings are -- 19if I can call them postings, I don't know if that's 20deployments or promotions or and whatnot -- very 21impressive. 22 You have achieved some pretty 23special positions with tremendous responsibility 24within the Canadian military both domestically and 25internationally and congratulations to you. Thank

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 146 2 3 4 5 1you for your testimony and your service. 2 THE WITNESS: Pleasure. 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. It's 4now 3:25. My understanding is the next witness 5shouldn't take very long, or is that accurate, or 6am I wrong? 7 MS COUTLÉE: It should be very 8brief, Mr. Chairman, no longer than with Sergeant 9Murrin yesterday. 10 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Do we 11need 5 minutes to readjust? We will take a quick 12health break and then we will start with the next 13witness. I'm not leaving the room, so please carry 14on. 15--- Recess taken at 3:29 p.m. 16--- Upon resuming at 3:39 p.m. 17 MS COUTLÉE: Mr. Chairman, the 18next witness is Captain Leonard Dunn. 19 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon, 20Captain. Welcome. 21AFFIRMED: CAPTAIN LEONARD DUNN 22EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS COUTLÉE: 23 MS COUTLÉE: 24 Q. Captain Dunn, I understand 25that in 2008, you worked at the LDSH regiment?

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 147 2 3 4 5 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Can you explain what your 3position was there? 4 A. My job there was a transport 5officer. Do you need further on that? 6 Q. That will be good. Thank 7you. 8 A. Okay. 9 Q. On March 14th, I understand 10that you were the duty at the duty desk? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Can you explain how the duty 13desk shifts were assigned? 14 A. I'm not sure what you mean. 15 Q. How did you come to be the 16duty officer? Was this part of your regular 17duties? 18 A. As part of my role as just 19being a junior officer in the regiment, usually 20every month there was a list posted in the routine 21orders of the regiment of who would on duty, what 22days. 23 Q. How long was the shift? 24 A. Normally 24 hours. 25 Q. How often in a given period

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 148 2 3 4 5 1of time would you be assigned as the duty officer? 2 A. For me it was usually 3anywhere from one to three times a month. 4 Q. I understand that in some 5cases, the shift at the duty desk can be assigned 6as a punishment, is that correct? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Was it your case on March 914th? 10 A. No. 11 Q. You have told us there is a 12list of the junior officers. Is it always the case 13that there is a duty officer, or can it be an NCO 14at times? 15 A. While I was there at times, 16it was an NCO, usually a rank of sergeant or higher 17as well. 18 Q. Was there more than one 19person at the duty desk during any given shift? 20 A. Yes. There was a duty driver 21or a duty corporal assigned as well. 22 Q. What were the duties of the 23duty officer? 24 A. My general duties were just 25making sure the building was secure after normal

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 149 2 3 4 5 1working hours, checking on some of the other 2buildings that belong to the regiment on the base 3such as the stables where the horses are housed. 4Usually I had to walk through the troop barracks 5once a night on weekdays and two or three times, I 6think, on weekends. 7 Q. During the daytime, were you 8also expected to perform your regular duties as 9well? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Did you have any duties when 12you were assigned as duty officer with respect to 13the defaulters' room? 14 A. I'm not sure what you are 15getting at there. 16 Q. I understand that the 17defaulters' room was located right behind the duty 18desk, is that correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. As the duty officer, was any 21supervision of the defaulters' room part of your 22duties? 23 A. No, none of the times I was 24duty officer. There was never a soldier punished 25in the defaulters' room.

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 150 2 3 4 5 1 Q. So there were no defaulters 2there while you were a duty officer? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Had there been defaulters, 5would that have been part of your duties as the 6duty officer? 7 A. Yes, there would have been 8additional duties for me to perform. 9 Q. What types of duties would 10that involve? 11 A. I don't really remember 12exactly what it was, possibly inspections multiple 13times a day on the soldier, but beyond that, just 14because I never had to do it, I never kept myself 15refreshed with the exact duties. 16 Q. I understand that aside from 17the times when Corporal Langridge was residing in 18the defaulters' room, you never had to supervise 19anyone who was residing in that room, is that 20correct? 21 A. Yes, that's correct. 22 Q. You have told us there would 23be one duty officer or NCO and also a duty driver. 24I understand that would be a corporal? 25 A. Sometimes it was a corporal;

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 151 2 3 4 5 1sometimes it was a trooper. 2 Q. Was there a requirement that 3one of the two persons on duty be present at the 4desk at all times? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. It was a 24 hour shift, were 7you allowed to sleep during the shift? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Were there facilities for you 10to sleep there? 11 A. Yes, in the duty centre there 12were beds. 13 Q. Was there a requirement that 14one of the two persons on duty be awake at any 15given time, or could you both be sleeping? 16 A. We could both be sleeping. 17 Q. Before you were posted at the 18duty desk in March 2008, did you know Corporal 19Langridge? 20 A. No. 21 Q. How are you informed of what 22you were supposed to do with respect to Corporal 23Langridge? 24 A. At the commencement of my 25duty shifts, there would have been a brief handover

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 152 2 3 4 5 1with whoever was on duty for the previous 24 hours. 2They would have provided some verbal feedback on 3it. As well, there was also some messages posted 4in the duty centre specific to Corporal Langridge 5on some of my additional duties. 6 Q. Did you ever have a 7discussion with the RSM about the measures you were 8supposed to take with respect to Corporal 9Langridge? 10 A. No. 11 Q. What information were you 12provided about Corporal Langridge when you first 13had a shift as the duty officer? 14 A. Mostly was the two notes in 15here with respect to him, so page 204. 16 Q. Before turning the documents, 17can you tell us: Do you remember anything about 18the information you were provided? 19 A. No, I can't remember exactly 20what was said. 21 Q. Do you have any general 22recollection of what was discussed generally? 23 A. I knew he was at risk for 24suicide and that we had to watch him, that he had 25to check in with me at least once every one or two

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 153 2 3 4 5 1hours and that I had to make sure he took his 2medication and that he was actually sleeping in the 3defaulters' room. 4 Q. In terms of the check-in, do 5you recall at all whether he had to check-in in 6person or he could do that by telephone? 7 A. My understanding at the time 8was that he could do it by telephone. 9 Q. Do you recall at all whether 10he had to take his medications in front of you or 11whether you just had to hand them out to him? 12 A. I don't remember. 13 Q. Do you recall whether he had 14to sleep in the defaulters' room? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Do you recall whether the 17door to the defaulters' room had to be open? 18 A. Not from my own memory. 19 Q. Do you recall ever getting a 20briefing on that? 21 A. Like verbal briefing from 22someone? 23 Q. A verbal, written, in any 24form. Do you recall being given any information as 25to whether or not the door had to be opened?

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 154 2 3 4 5 1 A. There was a note in the duty 2centre that explained it. I think it should have 3been opened. 4 Q. I understand that prior to 5the occasion when you were on duty on March 14, you 6had a previous occasion in March 2008 when you were 7on duty and Corporal Langridge was residing in the 8defaulters' room, is that correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Can you assist us in any way 11to place that in time, about how long before March 1214 would that have been? 13 A. To the best of my knowledge, 14it was somewhere within the previous two weeks, but 15I don't know the exact date. 16 Q. Were the shifts at the duty 17desk regular? Would there have been one shift 18every week or one shift every two weeks, or did 19they change randomly? 20 A. They changed randomly, so 21there would be a list posted up saying the duty 22list for the month of March or the duty list for 23the month of April. 24 Q. The prior occasion would have 25been somewhere in the prior two weeks before March

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 155 2 3 4 5 114. 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Do you recall at that time 4having any interactions with Corporal Langridge? 5 A. I remember briefly him 6telling me that one of the reasons he was taking 7his medication was because of nightmares, but 8beyond that... 9 Q. Do you recall Corporal 10Langridge coming to you on that occasion prior to 11March 14 and discussing the sign-in sheet with you? 12 A. Briefly at one moment, I 13think it was kind of sitting out in the open and he 14just asked that it be put away so that it wasn't 15visible by everyone who came by the duty centre. 16 Q. Did you do that? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. If you want to turn to tab 4 19of your book. This is the list of conditions that 20were being imposed on Corporal Langridge. Do you 21recall being provided with this list at the time? 22 A. This looks like a list that 23was in the duty centre that I had seen while I was 24there. 25 Q. When you say that it was in

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 156 2 3 4 5 1the duty centre, where was it? 2 A. That, I don't remember. I'm 3not sure if it was handed to me or posted on the 4board. I really don't know. 5 Q. When you say posted on the 6board, can you describe what board you are talking 7about? 8 A. I think there was like a 9message board of some sort in the duty centre, like 10a corkboard where things can be thumb tacked to. 11 Q. Where was that board located 12within the duty centre? 13 A. Inside the duty centre, would 14have been off to the side of the main front desk. 15 Q. Who would have had access to 16that board? 17 A. The duty officer, the duty 18driver, and the stables NCO also had an office in 19that area as well. 20 Q. Was the duty area a closed 21area where soldiers weren't allowed to go, or was 22it an open area where anybody could go? 23 A. It's a fairly open area. 24 Q. Were there any restrictions 25on soldiers entering that area?

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 157 2 3 4 5 1 A. I don't really know if there 2is set restrictions. Normally if people were there 3for no reason, you get them out of there just 4because they get in the way of any one actually 5doing business there. 6 Q. This list of conditions, what 7was your understanding at the time of the purpose 8for these conditions? 9 A. To the best of my knowledge, 10I knew he was at risk for suicide, so we had to 11monitor him to try to prevent that, but that was 12really just my own interpretation from reading the 13conditions and from whatever I heard verbally 14during my handover. 15 Q. During that general time 16period of March 2008, had you heard anything about 17a suicide watch being put together for Corporal 18Langridge? 19 A. I don't know if that term was 20used. It's really hard for me four years after the 21fact to really figure out what was said to me in a 22verbal handover as part of the job and what I would 23have heard otherwise. 24 Q. Were you told during the 25handover that you had to watch Corporal Langridge

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 158 2 3 4 5 1for suicide? 2 A. I believe so. 3 Q. On March 14, 2008, do you 4recall the timing for your shift? Was it from 5evening to evening? From morning to morning? 6 A. It was morning to morning. 7 Q. If you want to turn to tab 3 8of your book. This was the sign-in sheet for 9Corporal Langridge on March 14 and 15. Are those 10your initials in the right-hand side column? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. There is a notation and the 13sheet we have begins at 1750 on March 14, and there 14is a notation for shacks F314. Is that notation in 15your handwriting? 16 A. No. 17 Q. We see from the sheet that 18between 1750 and 1920 and then between 1922 and 192045, Corporal Langridge, he is reported to have 20been in shacks F314. Did you know what Corporal 21Langridge was doing in the shacks during that time? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Did he tell you anything 24about why he was going to the shacks? 25 A. I don't remember.

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 159 2 3 4 5 1 Q. There is a contact phone 2number that is left. Are you aware at all whether 3this number was for a cell phone or a landline? 4 A. I don't know. 5 Q. On the night of March 14th, 6did Corporal Langridge sleep in the defaulters' 7room? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Do you recall on that 10specific night whether the door was open? 11 A. No, I don't know if it was or 12not. 13 Q. Do you recall any 14interactions that you had with Corporal Langridge 15on that night? 16 A. I mentioned earlier that he 17said something to me about he was taking a 18medication because of nightmares and that's really 19the only interaction I have with him that I can 20remember. 21 Q. Do you have any recollection 22about Corporal Langridge's general disposition or 23demeanour on that night? 24 A. He seemed down upon himself; 25he appeared depressed.

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 160 2 3 4 5 1 Q. Do you recall, as part of the 2conditions, that Corporal Langridge had to be 3driven to appointments? 4 A. From personal memory, no, but 5it's in one of these documents. 6 Q. Do you recall at all on the 7two occasions when you were on duty whether in fact 8Corporal Langridge was driven to any appointments? 9 A. I don't remember. 10 Q. If you want to turn to tab 2 11of the book. This is a list of appointments for 12Corporal Langridge. Do you recall ever being 13provided that list or seeing it before? 14 A. I don't know if I have seen 15it before or not. 16 Q. Would this have been part of 17what was posted on the board? 18 A. I don't know. 19 Q. Was it customary at the end 20of the duty shifts to have a briefing with the RSM 21to brief him on anything that happened during your 22shift? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Did you after your shift on 25March 14th speak to the RSM about anything that

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 161 2 3 4 5 1happened during your shift? 2 A. No. 3 Q. After the other shift that 4you had when Corporal Langridge asked you to remove 5the sign-in sheet from plain view, did you at that 6time have any discussions with the RSM about what 7happened during that shift? 8 A. No. 9 Q. When your shift at the duty 10desk ended, did you provide a briefing to anyone 11else about what happened during your shift? 12 A. Every time we did a duty 13shift, we had to fill out an actual written report 14about any significant events that might have taken 15place and the timings when we actually did our 16security checks of the building. 17 Q. Who would you submit that 18report to? 19 A. There was a book at the duty 20centre, so I would fill that out, sign it, leave it 21in the duty book. The next person that took over 22could read it, and then I would also provide a 23verbal handover to that person. 24 Q. When you yourself took over 25your shifts, do you recall reading the reports from

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 162 2 3 4 5 1the person you had been previously on duty? 2 A. I usually would read them, 3but I have no recollection. 4 Q. How did you learn of Corporal 5Langridge's death? 6 A. I don't remember. 7 Q. Do you have any recollection 8about how long after his death you would have 9learned about it? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Just to give us a sense, if 12you are able to recollect, would we be talking 13about days after, weeks after, months after? 14 A. I would say within the days 15time frame. 16 Q. Once you learned about 17Corporal Langridge's death, looking back, was there 18anything that jumped out at you about that evening 19of March 14th that was just the day before he 20committed suicide? 21 A. No. 22 Q. We have heard certain 23testimony that one of the reasons for having 24Corporal Langridge reside at the duty desk was that 25he could be surrounded by his friends who would be

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 163 2 3 4 5 1on duty there. Were you personally a friend of 2Corporal Langridge? 3 A. No. 4 Q. After Corporal Langridge's 5death, were you contacted by anyone for any 6investigations into this matter? 7 A. No, not until the inquiries 8for this MPCC. 9 Q. So the first time you were 10contacted by anyone was by the MPCC? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Were ever contacted by the 13military police about this matter? 14 A. No. 15 MS COUTLÉE: Those are my 16questions. Thank you. 17 THE CHAIRPERSON: Colonel Drapeau? 18CROSS-EXAMINATION BY COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: 19 COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: 20 Q. When you are a duty officer 21in your particular unit, you mentioned that there 22is a book of some sort that you record of various 23events. 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Is there a log, an

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 164 2 3 4 5 1operational log, an administrative log that you 2also prepare? 3 A. Can you specify that question 4a bit more? 5 Q. Is there a piece of paper 6that you prepared -- because there may be something 7that you may not want to commit to the book itself, 8which is being read by anybody in the duty centre. 9Is there a separate log that you enter in the 10events that have taken place? 11 A. The book I was talking about 12was the log. That's not really read by everyone. 13 Q. Who does have access to it? 14 A. The duty officer would have 15had access to it. I would imagine the adjutant as 16well, I think, is who they eventually went to, but 17I'm not entirely sure on that. 18 Q. If somebody were to come in 19the duty centre, could that person have access to 20the book itself? 21 A. I don't really know. 22 Q. Is it under lock and key? 23 A. No, it was not under lock and 24key. 25 Q. That's the only place where

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 165 2 3 4 5 1you would commit to paper, whatever incident that 2came to your knowledge? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Would you be expected to give 5a morning briefing to, say, the adjutant or the 6RSM? 7 A. No. Typically, I wouldn't be 8required to give an actual verbal briefing them. 9 Q. So you just walk your way in 10and just leave the book behind in the book. 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. As a changeover or handover. 13 A. Yes. 14 COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: Thank you. 15 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms Richards? 16CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS RICHARDS: 17 MS RICHARDS: Yes. 18 Q. Captain Dunn, you were asked 19whether or not you were a friend of Corporal 20Langridge's by Commission counsel. While you were 21acting as duty officer, if Corporal Langridge had 22come to you and wanted to talk about an issue or 23express some concerns, would you have been willing 24to speak to him and provide him assistance? 25 A. Yes,

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 166 2 3 4 5 1 MS RICHARDS: Thank you. Those are 2my questions. 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: You have 4re-exam? 5RE-EXAMINATION BY MS COUTLÉE: 6 MS COUTLÉE: One question. 7 Q. You discussed briefings or 8the reports that you filled out after your shift. 9Do you recall at all whether that incident about 10Corporal Langridge asking you to hide the sign-in 11sheet was reported either verbally as a handover or 12in your reports? 13 A. No, I don't remember. 14 MS COUTLÉE: Thank you. 15QUESTIONS BY THE CHAIRPERSON: 16 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will conclude 17the testimony. I want to thank you for attending 18today. 19 Q. Where are you stationed now, 20Captain? 21 A. Ottawa. 22 Q. In Ottawa. It may have been 23some of the questions, but there was a lot that you 24didn't recall or didn't remember. Is there 25anything -- can you help me with that?

6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 167 2 3 4 5 1 A. Say it again? 2 Q. There were a lot of questions 3you just didn't recall things. I don't know the 4number of times you said it, but it was quite a few 5of them. 6 A. A lot of them are very 7specific questions about something that happened 8four years ago, so I really don't know if the 9answer to those questions was Ayes” or Ano.” 10 Q. So you wouldn't remember if 11the door was open. Wasn't that one of the duties? 12You just didn't remember that or didn't know? 13 A. It was one of the duties, so 14it was most likely open, but can I say 100 per cent 15I know that for a fact it was open, I don't 16remember. 17 Q. Okay. 18 THE CHAIRPERSON: That concludes 19for today. I think we are adjourned till tomorrow 20morning at 9:30. 21--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4:04 p.m.

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2 I HEREBY CERTIFY THAT I have, to the best 3 of my skill and ability, accurately recorded 4 by shorthand and transcribed therefrom, the 5 foregoing proceeding using real time computer 6 aided transcription. 7 8 9

10 ______11 Marion Liang, Court Reporter 12

13 and 14

15 I HEREBY CERTIFY THAT I have, to the best 16 of my skill and ability, accurately recorded 17 by Stenomask and transcribed therefrom, 18 the foregoing proceeding. 19 20 21 22

23 ______24 Suzanne Hubbard, Stenomask Reporter

7 8 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 9(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720