Supporting Students Struggling in Algebra I - Episode 6: Best Practices Wrap-up: The Big Finale

JC: Welcome to Supporting Students Struggling in Algebra I. I'm J.C. Sanders.

Virginia: And I'm Virginia Keasler.

JC: We're very excited to have everyone Join us for our episode six, our final episode.

Virginia: Gosh, how sad.

JC: I know. I know, it is sad. It is our final, because Virginia is leaving us.

Virginia: Yeah, I'm moving on to Florida, so I can enjoy the beach, and the sun, and everything there, and Mickey.

JC: That's right. Mickey's there. All right, so that is sad, but maybe we'll Skype and do some podcasts over Skype.

Virginia: Yeah, sure.

JC: Okay, that sounds good. All right, so we came together one last time as more of kind of a recap of what we've done in the past. Really kind of touching back on why in the world are we doing podcasts anyways, Virginia? What spurred us to do this crazy activity?

Virginia: Main thing that I was thinking about is as an Algebra 1 teacher in high school, I didn't really know a lot about manipulatives or things that go on another ... Like junior high and things that I had never done before. That was one of the reasons we did it.

JC: That's right. Yeah. One of the reasons was, of course, to talk about things that we think teachers might need to hear about, be reminded of. Then another reason I thought the podcast would be fun and a good idea is that it's an opportunity to meet teachers where they are and when they can join us. Instead of a workshop where you have to come on a specific day, or a webinar to sit and watch at the computer, a podcast you can just turn on in your car, while you jog, while you're grading papers.

Virginia: That's right. You can listen to it while you're doing lots of things.

JC: Right, thanks. That's what we're hoping. We're hoping that these podcasts have been helpful and meet you where you are as a teacher, and different avenues of learning for everyone. We're going to recap, and you already mentioned, and I'm so glad you did, Virginia, about the algebra tiles, and not knowing exactly how to incorporate algebra tiles when you were in the classroom when you were getting going as a new teacher in an algebra class. I was really happy that we were able to talk about that in our first one, as well as share resources.

Virginia: Yeah. We had made those videos, and that's what kind of lead into this is thinking, "How could we get the word out about the videos that are there?" I remember us saying that the videos are there at Region 13. The cool thing about that is that they're there, but you can also get help from people at Region 13.

JC: That's right. Virginia: It was just another way for us to help you out there with implementing them, not just watching a video that you could probably find on youtube.

JC: That's right. Yes. Are you going to give people your cell phone number they can call you when you're in Florida? Maybe not.

Virginia: Let's see. It's 000-700-8000.

JC: Klondike [inaudible 00:03:21]. All right. We also learned that manipulatives are important. I've worked with teachers. You've worked with teachers, and we know at the high school level, high school teachers have a hard time with manipulatives and bringing them in, and just understanding and feeling comfortable, like, are they sure this is going to work? Are they comfortable with talking, and sharing, and showing students, right? I've been working with teachers, and I've introduced teachers to algebra tiles or even two-colored counters on how to add and subtract integers. Still I get those kind of fearful looks from teachers to say, "I don't feel comfortable showing students this," or, "I think this could be confusing for kids."

I want teachers out there to try it, because you just don't know. You don't know if it will turn a light bulb on for some students, even if it doesn't make sense to you. You have to remember, and actually I had a great teacher tell me this. He said he realized after playing with some of the manipulatives, he goes, "I realize I already know this stuff. It doesn't exactly always make sense to me, because I know it, but possibly for a kid who doesn't know it, it might make better sense or really support their understanding of it."

Virginia: Right, and high school teachers are very content-special with what they teach, and a lot of times they understand math really well. Even though there might be some other ways to do it, sometimes there's this thought that, "I need to teach them abstractly, because when they get to college, no one's going to help them out with anything. They have to [inaudible 00:05:04] abstractly." I think one of the things that people might think is that if I let them work with this manipulative, is that going to take away from the idea that they're ever going to understand abstract? They can't just understand this. They have to understand something else. What do you think about that?

JC: I think that this [inaudible 00:05:25] a valid concern, but I think that maybe not understanding exactly the evolution of learning these abstract concepts. They're abstract concepts, doesn't mean we have to start in the abstract. Think about when you're teaching your own child to drive a car. It's an abstract idea to drive a car. It's a complicated idea. Lots of pieces and facets of how to drive a car safely, but we don't start off just giving the keys and thumbs up and, "Good luck." We give them lots of practice and talk and time, and with a lot of support. I kind of feel like with manipulatives, starting off in these concrete manners is really showing our students the understanding behind why we do the things we do in math, and why those abstract concepts are working, because now I've gotten to experience that abstract concept.

S-3Algebra_episode6 Page 2 of 13 Virginia: Right. I could just imagine teaching a child how to drive and having some sort of book that showed you how to do that, but you never really got in the car.

JC: Right, until the day of.

Virginia: Right, and then now you're supposed to know. I think that's what we think sometimes is we have this book. We have these ideas, and concepts, and they need to know it. Here you go. Here's this worksheet. Let's get it done. Then you always have the kids who come in the next day. Maybe you gave them some homework or whatever. A lot of kids, one right after another come in, "I couldn't do my homework. I couldn't do my homework." Then you'd say, "What one couldn't you do?" They would say, "All of them. I couldn't do any of them." Sometimes it's kids just not doing what they're supposed to, but a lot of times it's kids just don't understand the concepts. They need something more visual and concrete. High school teachers are not always that comfortable with that.

JC: Yeah. I think you actually kind of lead us into our next one, our second episode, episode number two. We talked about formative assessment and looking at student work. Virginia just reminded me of what you were just saying there about students sometimes acting like or doesn't seem like they know what they're doing, or making mistakes, and we're not really sure why. Then Dr. Plowman Junk kind of helped us think about how we could maybe better analyze our student work.

Virginia: Yeah. One of the things that I got out of that was that students seem like they can't do anything, and you just think they know absolutely nothing. When you give them a chance to do some work and just show what they know, just let them think about it. They may want to draw a picture. They may do whatever, but you just let them do it. You don't tell them what to do. Sometimes you can see they know a whole lot about it. They just can't get to the answer. That helps you formatively assess what you need to do.

I know in one of the things that we do in reading a lot is listen to kids read, and try to formatively assess, maybe level books up, maybe in elementary school or things like that. They go up a level or whatever. We have leveled books, but when you talk to even an elementary teacher about doing the same sort of thing with math, then they just can't even conceive of the idea of that. Really her work shows that if you just look at the work that the students are doing, you can find out a whole lot about the students. Similar to, "I'm listening to you read," I'm now looking at your work and letting you fail if you have to, and getting some good ideas about what you're doing.

JC: Right. I think she also mentioned looking at the work, but also making sure the student had an opportunity to explain, and discuss, and talk, and just verbalize on kind of where they got to, and then how did they get stuck, and just having them talk. You're getting kind of a little peek into their brain. Like she said, and like you just mentioned, sometimes you find our more about the student than you realized than maybe just that one answer kind of shows, but maybe there's actually more hidden things in there when S-3Algebra_episode6 Page 3 of 13 we take the time to really analyze student work and take it into consideration.

Virginia: I think it builds confidence. The student's confidence is built by the idea that they really do know something. So many, especially in high school, by the time you get to high school, if you've said to yourself, "I don't like math, don't know anything about math. My mother wasn't good at math. My grandma wasn't good at math. No one is good at math in my family," then you have all these preconceived ideas. Sometimes we can help them out, and they're going to need that for college anyway.

JC: Yeah, and that's right. I think that brings into the thing that I'm kind of on the soapbox and bandwagon on is helping students realize and being okay with the fact that math is hard. It's a challenge. That's the fun and exciting thing about math. I used to tell my students if math was too easy for them, then I wasn't doing a good job, because I wasn't challenging them enough. It's when we challenge them and they have to work at it, that's where we could also built confidence to help them say ... Grit and resiliency, let's build grit and resiliency to help them go, "Hey, you've worked really hard at this. Look how far you've come. We're going to keep working on it. It's going to get easier because you've worked hard."

Virginia: Wow, that's really great. That's very good.

JC: Sort of profound. Thank you.

Virginia: It is. I was going to use that word "profound", but I thought, "Wow."

JC: I'll just compliment myself and say it. Sure. All right. What was our third episode about?

Virginia: Our third episode was with Tamara Ramsey, and she is the mathematics coordinator for the TEKS Resource System. She brought some really good ideas about spiraling. Most of us know how important spiraling, and sometimes we spiral concepts that are in our particular course. If we're teaching something about quadratics in Algebra 1, we might link back to something that was similar with linear equations or something like that. A lot of teachers know about that, but one thing that she said that really was interesting to me is that with ... Of course this is in the TEKS Resource System, so I think you could probably find that in other curriculum, but when you go back, if you're Algebra 1 and you go back to 6th, 7th, and 8th grade and start looking for spiral review items, it would help your kids go back to what they really knew maybe in some of those grades, and help them feel like they can build upon that.

It also tells you what the kids really know. Even though you might be thinking that they should have learned this in 7th grade and everyone should know it, that doesn't mean they really do. I hadn't thought about going backwards using the TEKS Resource System. I had used that before as a teacher, but I had never thought about going backwards to a few other grade levels back from where I was teaching-

JC: To find those review questions, the spiral. S-3Algebra_episode6 Page 4 of 13 Virginia: To find those review questions. Yeah, the spiral questions. I thought that was interesting.

JC: I did, too, and I really liked the idea. He spoke nicely of different ways to spiral and the different things we need to be spiraling. There's that idea, and there's research behind the idea of distributive review as well as cumulative review. We want to make sure that we're taking what the students have learned previously and distributing it throughout the year, as well as adding onto it every time, too. It's important for kids to constantly be reviewed. We can't fall back on the, "I already taught that. They should know that." What we know about the brain is that we need repetition and we need connections. It's okay to bring those things back in to make sure the students are explicitly seeing those connections.

Virginia: Yeah. I think sometimes with math teachers, they look at repetition as, "I'm going to give you 20 of the same problems to do." We're repeating this over and over and over again, but I think you mean something else by repetition.

JC: That's right. I do. What I mean by repetition is that opportunity to practice things that we've done in the past. Not one sheet with 50 problems that I'm going to do, because 50 problems might help me remember this, but more of, "We worked on this concept in October. It's February. I still should have my students seeing that concept throughout the year and adding onto the concepts that they've already learned." That's important. I've just been talking with some teachers, and they're kind of asking me, "When do you do that in the lesson?" Great question, and it's okay to do it at the beginning of the lesson. It's also okay to do it at the end of the lesson, because then at the beginning of the lesson I can do some spiraling, and I can kind of see are my students ready for what I'm about to teach? At the end of the lesson as well, can we connect all of this stuff together and remember what we're working on?

Virginia: Right, and I like that word "connect". I think the problem is our kids don't always make connections to what we're talking about.

JC: I agree. Yeah.

Virginia: Just going on a little bit of a bandwagon or whatever.

JC: A tangent?

Virginia: A tangent.

JC: I want a tangent. Go, go, go.

Virginia: Sometimes we teach all these little special tricks, like the butterfly method, or the donkey goes into the house, or the crocodile eats the big number, or something silly. It is great at the time when the kids go, "Oh yeah. Oh, I can see the crocodile eating. Yeah, S-3Algebra_episode6 Page 5 of 13 I remember that." Then when you get to the next grade level, and I've been the recipient of this, I didn't know anything about the crocodile, so when kids would come from some specific teacher, and they were taught that the crocodile was going to eat something, I was just like, "I don't really get this." They had to explain it to me. I thought, "Wow, okay. Their crocodile eats something." In my mind I thought, "This was a quick trick, but is this meaningful or will this be meaningful when we get to some harder questions?"

JC: Sure. Right. I'm with you, go off on tangents on that all the time. I would throw out that when you went down that tangent, there's a great article to back that up. It's called "13 Rules that Expire" written by Karen Karp. Have you read that one?

Virginia: No, I haven't.

JC: Yeah, and Barb Dougherty. Really great article. It was in [sinsy teum 00:15:38] a couple years ago. I highly recommend that, really four our elementary and middle school teachers, because that's where kind of the rubber hits the road when they're giving the rules that then expire when students get to middle school and high school. It's a good one to think about. Yeah, what are some of those things that we say, that we think we're helping students, but on the long run it's just building misconceptions?

Virginia: Yeah, and I've had some workshops where I was leading a workshop, and then a teacher, maybe it was a proportional reasoning or something, and a teacher would say, "Yeah, this is how you do it. The donkey is inside of the house," or something or another. Everybody would just latch onto the donkey's going to do something. It's fine that those are all out there, but I don't think they can really ...

JC: It's not building [inaudible 00:16:24].

Virginia: You're not building capacity. You're just learning how to do a trick.

JC: Or a conceptual understanding. Yeah. That's right. Yeah, and that takes us right back to the manipulative thing again, too. Like I was telling those teachers who had the manipulatives, if I just teach them the arbitrary rule of if I'm subtracting integers, I just add the opposite, I don't understand what that means as a students. I can do that little rule that you told me, but I have no conceptual understanding of why.

Virginia: I don't have the author of the article, but I remember reading an article recently about teachers are afraid that if they give manipulatives to kids, especially Algebra 1 kids, that they can't use it on the test. "Why are we doing that?" One of the things that this person had said was kids will quit using manipulatives on their own once they don't need them.

JC: That's right. That's right.

Virginia: This fear that these kids don't have- S-3Algebra_episode6 Page 6 of 13 JC: It's like a learned helplessness.

Virginia: Accommodations for that, so we can't let them do that. Then it really rang true to me that, "Oh hey, we can let them do it, and we can let them use it. After a while, they're not going to use them anymore anyway."

JC: That's right. That's a good point. That's a good point. All right. That was episode three, spiral review. Episode number four, we had Russel Larson come in.

Virginia: Yeah, and he talked about small group instruction. I was listening. He knew a whole lot about that and had done that a lot in his career, it sounded like.

JC: Yeah, it was nice to hear some [inaudible 00:17:47] real life application that he's really done it in his classroom, and he's seen the success and the benefit of it.

Virginia: Yeah, and he was really passionate. One of the things that I thought was interesting was that when he works with small groups, he said he would meet with this medium group first and kind of get them going, and see what they knew, and if they're ready to go on and work by themselves. Then he would meet with their low kids. Usually what we end up doing is saying, "You guys go off and do whatever it is that the directions say. I'm sure you're okay." Then you end up meeting with the low kids. The medium kids, sometimes they can't really do very well, because they don't really know what they're supposed to be doing.

JC: Right. Then they're off task, and then you're upset that that group is off task. Why are they off task? Groups don't work, and my kids can't handle it. Then I stop doing small group.

Virginia: Exactly. You do have to know this, that when you start using small groups, you're going to crash and burn. That's just going to happen. Whenever you do it the first time, don't expect that you are now a person that can just do this with ease. It's a learned thing, and you're going to have problems. You're going to have to recognize those things and kind of tweak them as you go along. If the kids all have had instruction from you, and that's what I thought was interesting, if they had that little instruction from you, the ones that you think can go on, then maybe they have a better chance, because what's the first thing a kid does the minute that you quit speaking about instructions or directions? What do you think the first thing they do? Yeah, she's go her hand up.

JC: I raise my hand.

Virginia: Yeah. Everybody in the class, "What are we doing? I don't know."

JC: What did they just say?

Virginia: I've even been a teacher at a workshop and kind of half listening to whatever was going S-3Algebra_episode6 Page 7 of 13 on. Then all of a sudden now we're doing something.

JC: "It got quiet, and I'm supposed to do something."

Virginia: "What are we doing?" Luckily a lot of times, I'm off task sometimes, but luckily people around me will pick up the pace and tell me what to do. I was one of those people that zoned out.

JC: Good. I agree with you. I liked what he said. I never thought about that. Meeting with my middle group first, then my low, and then making sure I have time to meet with the high group as well, because that is important. They need one-on-one support, and they need just that interaction. I need to build rapport with all of my students, knowing that small group is an opportunity to build rapport and to get to know my students better. The benefits of small group just go on and on.

Virginia: The cool thing about small groups that I learned when I started doing that in my classroom, of course again, I told you I crashed and burned a lot at the beginning, but-

JC: Sure. We all do.

Virginia: I had a chance to facilitate ... They always would say, "Be a facilitator," but I didn't really know how. When I became a facilitator, I learned how to do it better. I wasn't perfect, of course, but the thing I liked about it is that I really did get to know my kids, and I got to know what they knew. Because when they sit there at a desk, and I'm giving them a lecture on whatever it is, and then now we're going to have some guided practice maybe, and I walk around and kind of formatively assess, there's time for that, but getting them in small groups and letting them work and see what they know and get to know them a lot better, I really enjoyed that.

JC: Yeah, I have to say I feel like I was lucky to be a teacher that I did resource classrooms every now and then. Of course those were just naturally small. I just loved those classrooms, because I knew my students so well. I had opportunities to touch on all of them and make sure I heard from everyone. That's always pretty good.

Virginia: I'm going back to be in the classroom when I get to Florida teaching 8th grade and some Algebra 1 and pre-algebra. I've learned an awful lot as a specialist here at Region 13, in addition to what I knew before. It's going to be fun, I think, to get back into the classroom. I know people might think I'm crazy, but ...

JC: I think you're brilliant at this.

Virginia: I really missed it, and I hope that a lot of the things that I had learned over time that I didn't implement in my classroom will help me.

JC: I think that's pretty much [inaudible 00:21:55] giveaway the reason why we're doing the recap episode so that you can recap all this and take it with you, right? S-3Algebra_episode6 Page 8 of 13 Virginia: Right, right. Yeah. Of course the more you hear, repetition of hearing is good for you.

JC: That's right. That's right. Okay. Episode number five, which we just had, was great with Dr. Dianne Bryant. She is a professor of special education. I was excited to bring her in and listen to what she has to say and share information. I thought it was great. She shared some good information for all teachers to kind of get the idea of what are those characteristics of students with disabilities so we can really understand where they're coming from, and why they're struggling, and what we can do to support them. Yeah.

Virginia: One of the things I saw there was if you took fractions, I think a lot of her examples had to do with fractions, but if you were to take 1/2 and multiply it by 3/8, that's equal to 3/16, I think, if I'm doing my math correctly.

JC: Something like that. Something like that. We'll check you later.

Virginia: Yeah. We don't have a calculator here, but I think it's 3/16. I'm not sure. Could be wrong. In any case, what she did is she would give you the answer and have you come up with two fractions that would give you that answer. There may be more than one answer.

JC: That's right, yeah.

Virginia: That was pretty cool.

JC: Yeah, she talked about the research that she had done with Barb Dougherty and others. They talked about some of those different approaches, those questioning approaches. I think the one you were talking about right there is the reversibility approach, which was really interesting, is giving kids an answer and having them work on what could lead to that answer. That was a good idea to think about. I really appreciated hearing it from her as a special education professional and saying even our students that are struggling and have a disability or whatever, it's important for them to do those higher level thinking, because again, we just don't know. We just don't know what kids know sometimes, and their abilities and their capabilities sometimes. It's good to challenge all kids.

Virginia: Yeah. That kind of segues back to Dr. Junk again, the same thing.

JC: It does.

Virginia: It's looking at kids work, and letting them do some work, and not just telling them there's an algorithm. Go do the algorithm. You're going to have kids that can do that, and you're probably good at it if you're a high school math teacher, but not everyone is.

JC: Yeah. All right. I'm just really happy with our podcast series. I think we covered a lot of really great information. I hope teachers out there that have listened have found some S-3Algebra_episode6 Page 9 of 13 use and benefit.

Virginia: One of the things that we're going to attach to this podcast is a video of me, unfortunately.

JC: Oh, it's great.

Virginia: It's a video of me explaining this product that we have at the product store here at Region 13. I was inspired by a lot of the things that we've actually had on the podcast. A lot of those things I was inspired by when I started to think about this product, and it's kind of a tool. There are 17 new math TEKS that we went through last year, 17 brand new ones.

JC: Brand new.

Virginia: Some of them were exponential functions, and some had to do with quadratics and things like geometric series, or sequences, no series, but sequences, and they were things that they hadn't seen before. Most of it came from algebra 2. Knowing teachers might struggle with those concepts if they were teaching Algebra 1 and not some of the other courses in high school, then I thought those same teachers, same thing we've been saying, those same teachers need to know how to help some of those kids that are in remediation. We have those remediation classes that we just kind of keep throwing the same questions at them over and over and over. If they get better, hooray! We've done a good job. Then you've got kids in your class who you don't know what to do with. How do you teach kids how to do better when adding and subtracting integers, for instance? Instead of just keep telling them the same thing over and over, then using two-colored counters is a good way. It makes a lot of sense, and it's not something that people can't understand, and kids, it gives them a concrete thing to look at. What we did is we took those 17 new math standards, and we put in some activities. We put some foundation TEKS in there that went back to the Click-On TEKS, which have been very popular here at Region 13.

JC: Right, those are so helpful.

Virginia: Yeah. The Click-On TEKS have a lot of hands-on activities that you can use with manipulatives.

JC: Right, and it really puts some of those student expectations into teacher-friendly language, and just really gives a clear understanding so the teachers know sometimes ... I know I read those student expectations sometimes, and kind of like, "What did they mean by this? What did they mean by that?" Those Click-On TEKS were really nice to show picture, this is what it means when they tell you this. This is what it means when they're talking about symbolic expression. What do they mean by symbolic? Oh, right. Here's the table with the symbolic expression.

Virginia: Yeah, and these- S-3Algebra_episode6 Page 10 of 13 JC: Then your mini intervention, too, just takes that a step further, I feel like, and really helps teachers connect. I know you have background knowledge and spiral information and foundational information all in there for the teachers to really fully understand those 17 new ones.

Virginia: Right. Then there's activities for that SE also, and then references back to Algebra SEs that would be vertically lined.

JC: And you put in that pre and post assessment.

Virginia: Oh, that's very ... I wasn't thinking about that.

JC: It's really great. It's great.

Virginia: There's a pre and post test for every one of those SEs. Some of those on the pre test, it does go back to some that are in 6th and 7th and 8th grade. Then also there are links that you would click at some point and go back and look at those Click-On TEKS for 6th, 7th, and 8th grade. It's a really good product.

JC: It is a really good product.

Virginia: There's video, and it explains what I've just said, kind of, but there's a video a lot shorter, and just explains everything about it. There's one for exponential equations, and there's one for quadratic equations. You should go to the Region 13 store and check it out. That's not why we're doing the podcast, but we have an awful lot of free stuff that's on our math website at Region 13. If you want to, again, to remember how to get there, you could go to the Region 13 site, just Google Region 13. I'm a Google gal. It'll pop right up.

JC: Or it's esc13.net.

Virginia: Yeah, I know. You're not a Google gal, but anyway.

JC: No, I'm a Google gal, too.

Virginia: I'm a Google gal. Anyway, you Google it, it'll come up, or you listen to JC, one of the two. Then go to that site. Then there's a drop-down menu. If you go to the math drop-down menu, you could go there, and you'll see our videos that we were talking about, and podcasts, and resources, and a link to the product we were just talking about, and a link to the Click-On TEKS, too. If you're not Algebra 1 or do more than one thing, then you can look at those.

JC: That's right. Yeah. Just to wrap up this podcast, I think it's getting a little long, but we're just having such a great time visiting and sharing all this good information, but we do need to wrap up, I guess. S-3Algebra_episode6 Page 11 of 13 Virginia: Yeah, I guess so. One of the things that we were talking about in relevance to why you would ever listen to a podcast, podcasts are really important today in today's society, really ... What would you say?

JC: I guess they're almost kind of trendy, almost.

Virginia: Yeah, yeah. Trendy.

JC: They're kind of a new way to gather information.

Virginia: Yeah, so you can listen to things while you're doing lots of other things. It's a good way to multitask on your way to work or on your way home. Podcasts are super important and popular, but just remember that research tells you that you only remember 20% of what you hear. We've kind of reiterated that again today, talking about the same things we've already talked about.

JC: Repetition.

Virginia: Right, right. We're reminding you of some of the great things that you can go back and listen to.

JC: Spiraling back in.

Virginia: Yes, yes, but guess what? I think people have heard that you remember 90% of what you do, actually. If you take some of these ideas and put them into practice-

JC: Put them straight into action.

Virginia: Right, you will be more able to remember some of these things if you try them out.

JC: Yep, and they'll become a little bit more second nature, and not so scary or abstract ideas.

Virginia: Yeah. It's the same idea. You mentioned earlier, if I'm going to teach someone how to drive a car, I'm not going to give them a podcast on that. I'm going to have them go and actually drive the car.

JC: Podcast would be bad. That could be one thing.

Virginia: Right.

JC: There's series of learning to drive.

Virginia: Yes, yes.

S-3Algebra_episode6 Page 12 of 13 JC: All right. Refer back, I think is what you're telling, right, Virginia? Refer back. Listen to our episodes again and again. Then work on putting it into your action and implementing it into your classroom. We're just so glad you listened. Thanks a lot for joining us.

Virginia: Yeah, and we're going to sign off now, but it's been fun.

JC: It's been very fun.

Virginia: Hopefully a lot of people are listening and get some good information.

JC: All right. Thanks for listening. Bye.

Virginia: Bye.

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