CONSTITUTION OF KENYA REVIEW COMMISSION (CKRC)

NATIONAL CONSTITUTIONAL CONFERENCE (NCC)

Verbatim Report of

PLENARY PROCEEDINGS HELD AT THE PLENARY HALL, BOMAS OF KENYA.

ON

11.02.2004

Page 1 of 20 Last printed CONSTITUTION OF KENYA REVIEW COMMISSION

NCC - PLENARY PROCEEDINGS HELD AT THE PLENARY HALL, BOMAS OF KENYA ON 11.02.2004.

Present

Baldip Singh Rihal - Chair Thomas Nyabote Aburi - Delegate

Secretariat Staff in attendance

Ann Kiama - Verbatim Recorder

The meeting started at 9.20 am. with Hon. Delegate Baldip Singh Rihal in the Chair.

The session started with traditional dances from the Masai Community followed by a Kamba dance.

Hon. Delegate Baldip Singh Rihal: Honourable Delegates, Ladies and Gentlemen, good morning.

Hon. Delegates: Good morning.

Hon. Delegate Baldip Singh Rihal: I think most of the Delegates know me. My name is Baldip Singh Rihal, Delegate number 487 from the Professional Organizations. I have been asked to Chair the Plenary session this morning, so I would like to call the meeting to order and we will start with prayers. I will call Delegate number 252, Honourable Dubat Ali to say the first prayer. So, can we all be up standing please? The second prayer will be by Delegate 526, Honourable Rosemary Kinyanjui.

Page 2 of 20 Last printed Hon. Delegate Ali Dubat: (Prayer). Bismillahi Rahmani Rahim. Ee Allah, Mfalme wa Wafalme wote, mwenye kumiliki dunia na yaliomo ndani, tunakuuliza kwa utukufu wako na sifa zako nzuri utubariki, utupe heri na baraka uteremushe mvua kutoka bingu, utupe neema zako. Ee Allah, wewe ndiye umetuweka pamoja sisi watu wa Kenya tukiwa jamii tofauti tofauti wenye mila tofauti tofauti, wenye dini tofauti tofauti. Lakini kwa hekima yako umetuweka pamoja na sisi tunataka kukaa pamoja. Ee Allah, hii Katiba ambayo tunatengeneza, hatuwasi wewe Katiba na sheria ya haki ni ile ambayo umesema katika vitabu vyako. Lakini lazima tuwe na kitu cha kutuweka pamoja.

Ee Allah, tupe sibira, utulivu na hekima ya kumaliza hii kazi. Ee Allah, kuna watu ambao wewe ulipatia uongozi na hawafuati mambo vile inatakiwa. Wamekuwa kama Pharaoh ambaye ulimpa madaraka na akaasi na hata ukatuma Musa na akakata. Sisi tunajua wewe hauko nao. Tunakuuliza uwarudishe kwa line na wakikata, wewe umewahi kupambana na vichwa maji, wakorofi, waasi, wale ambao Bwana hawatii amri yako na unajua vile utwafanya. Ee Allah, sisi hapa hii kongamano wewe ndiye unajua kila siri. Wewe ndiye unajua tunakotoka kila pembe ya hii nchi, kuboresha hii nchi, kuleta masikizano kwa hii nchi, lakini kuna watu wachache ambao wanajali masilahi yao na wengi wao hawajui ile harakati hii nchi ilipitia wakati wa kupigania uhuru maana walikuwa watoto. Wanataka kuturudisha enzi mbaya na tunakuuliza uwazuie, na uwashike. Ee Allah, hakuna haja wa kutaja majina. Wewe ndiye mwenye kujua kila siri ile inayo dhahirishwa na kil kinachofichwa. Tunaacha kila kitu mikononi yako. Amin rabil-allamin.

Hon. Delegate Rosemary Kinyanjui: (Prayer). Let us continue praying. God, our heavenly Father, who was, who is and is still to come, We want to thank You this morning for your gracious kindness, for your power, for your protection. We want to thank You this morning that you have given us yet another day to come and deliberate on the things that You brought us here for. Father, we want to thank You this morning for your work that you have shown from when we started. One of your characteristics Lord is that whatever you begin you bring to a completion and so this morning we are so delighted dear God, for the far that You have taken us. Jehovah we saw You in Bomas I, we saw You in Bomas II and even this time dear Lord we still believe that God You are in control, that Jehovah You are our Ebenezer, that the far You have brought us dear God we can see and we can rejoice in that.

Page 3 of 20 Last printed Father, seeing what You have done, we still have strength and this day we believe that You are going to do this work. There are many things that are there, some of them are too hard to be understood by us but we want to thank You that there is no secret that is hidden unto You. And so, dear God we pray this morning that things that would be brought to scatter or delay the work that You started that God, You deal with them and do not allow. We are trusting that dear God You have a plan and a future for us, You have a plan and a future for the Kenyans and so, dear God this morning, we look forward to your work being done.

You are telling us in your word that we stand still and see you fighting the battle. Man of war this morning we trust in You, we rely on You, we depend on You and we are waiting upon You. In Jesus name I pray.

Hon. Delegates: Amen.

Hon. Delegate Baldip Singh Rihal: Thank you very much, please be seated. Oh, Sorry.

(Playing of the National Anthem).

Hon. Delegate Baldip Singh Rihal: Thank you, Honourable Delegates. This morning I am accompanied at the high table by Honourable Delegate Nyabote Aburi. Now as you have been given the program for today, it is going to be a continuation of the Rules and Procedures for the consideration stage and soon after we finish here you are going to break into four groups and as you will see from the detailed program the four groups will comprise group one which will be located in tent G. It will take members from Technical Working Groups A, B, and C and they will sit in the Devolution of Power’s tent G and their facilitator will be Mr. Patrick Gichochi. Group two will take members from Technical Working Groups D, E and F and they will sit in tent D which is the Executive tent and their session facilitator is Mr. Andrew Mwendwa. Group three will sit in tent J which is the Land and Environment tent and will comprise members from Technical Working Groups G, H and I. Group four will stay here in the Plenary Hall and it will comprise of Technical Working Group members from Committees J, K, L and M and their facilitator is Mr. P. C. Omollo.

Page 4 of 20 Last printed Now, before we break there is one announcement which I have been asked to make. Delegates, there was a lot of discussion about the visit that had been proposed to Magadi Soda Company. This morning the Steering Committee re-visited the issue and the Secretariat of the Conference is now in touch with the management of Magadi Soda Company and once they clear the visit, it is proposed that the visit will take place most likely on the coming Saturday. So, maybe by tomorrow or latest by Friday we will have the final decision from the Magadi Soda Company on this matter and the Delegates will be informed accordingly.

An Hon. Delegate: Point of Order.

(Inaudible comments on the floor).

Hon. Delegate Baldip Singh Rihal: May I finish my announcement please and then we will take Points of Order? Honourable Delegates the Secretariat is working very hard. It has to agree with the management of the Company that we could visit them and this is what is being organized. So, as soon as this thing is organized we will make announcements from here informing all the Delegates whether the visit takes place on Saturday. Saturday has been proposed, it is --

(Inaudible discussions on the floor).

Hon. Delegate Baldip Singh Rihal: Please can I finish the announcement? I will come to the Points of Order. We know that many Delegates tend to go home on Saturdays. We are aware of that, the Steering Committee is aware of that and therefore if the visit does take place on Saturday you will get adequate notice and then the Delegates will have to decide whether they want to visit this place. If they have to, then they will have to commit themselves and be ready to proceed to Magadi on Saturday.

(Inaudible discussions on the floor).

Hon. Delegate Baldip Singh Rihal: On working days, we know, Honourable Delegates the schedule is going to be very tight and it will not be possible for us to break on a weekday and do

Page 5 of 20 Last printed the visit and again it depends on the management of Magadi Soda; whether they want the Delegates to come there because they are the ones who are going to host the visit. Okay? I have made the announcement that I was asked to make by the Secretariat but we can now open some discussion and I will take the Points of Order so let me start from this end and I will go anti- clock wise and see what members have to say.

An Hon. Delegate: Point of Order.

Hon. Delegate Baldip Singh Rihal: Please! Okay, I have recognized Delegate 433 this side.

Hon. Delegate David Marcos Rakamba: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am Delegate 433, David Marcos Rakamba. Mr. Chairman, as I keep on repeating I am surprised at the management of the Steering Committee. Mr. Chairman, I am standing on a Point of Order under Regulation 32 (1) (a), the privileges of this Conference Mr. Chairman. Indeed you realize that the Draft Bill, Article 10 Mr. Chairman, gives the freedom of worship and making that decision that the tour be on Saturday Mr. Chairman, in itself is denying some group the freedom of worship. This Conference Mr. Chairman, having accepted under the Draft Bill Article 10, that there be freedom of worship, then I think we are losing track on what we are saying and the decision we are making Mr. Chairman. So, we appeal that the decision of Saturday is in a way trying to say that there could be no opportunity for these people to visit the Magadi place indirectly. So, I move that that decision be rescinded and a different day actually be taken Mr. Chairman. Thank you. And most likely on Monday Mr. Chairman.

Hon. Delegate Baldip Singh Rihal: Okay, notice taken of that, we will convey that to the Secretariat. Okay, I am moving along this way now. I recognize 353.

Hon. Delegate Joseph Njalis Sheul: Thank you, Chair. I am Delegate 353, Joseph Sheul, from Laikipia district. Honourable Chair, with due respect to all and sundry we had been given this program early in the week. I remember Monday is when most of us came to know that there would be a visit on Wednesday to Magadi Soda Company. We want to get well informed on what has transpired between Monday and yesterday because apparently what is happening is that there are some people in this country who do not want their sin to seen and known. We are not

Page 6 of 20 Last printed even asking to meet the management Committee. What Delegates are saying is that they want to go and see one of the natural resources that is in this country and that has been taken over from the local people and used by other people for their own benefit. So, what we are saying is it is not in order for you the Chair and even for the Steering Committee to decide against this Conference that we are not going to visit that plant. In my view the plant is one major natural resource that can give us good information particularly the Land Rights and Environment Committee to make informed decisions on the natural resources that are found in this country. Let me say this; in my own view I think some people are telling us not to go there because they know what they know and we are also succumbing to that. The Steering Committee is coming into that because how do you make a program and say on Wednesday we are going to go and along the way you again go back on that decision? So, my view is as has been said by the Honourable Delegate who has spoken, let us look for a working day so that we go and visit because the whole idea of Saturday is a day that they will make sure that no Delegate is around here and who can visit that plant to see for themselves what is happening. Thank you very much.

Hon. Delegate Baldip Singh Rihal: Okay, notice taken of your point sir. We will again convey this message to the Secretariat but let me say this Honourable Delegates. A lot will depend upon the management of the Company, which day is convenient for them (uproar). So, the Secretariat is in touch with them please and we shall let you know as soon as a decision is made. Okay, I recognize Delegate 228.

Hon. Delegate Jane Kiano: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am not 228, I am 489. We were told or it came out on the program last week that we are going to go to Magadi today. Do you want to tell me that it came out on the program before the Steering Committee agreed with the management of Magadi (clapping) that the Delegates were going to go there? Mr. Chair, I do not want to assume but some of the doubts we are having are being created by you Secretariat because you gave us the program. I personally was looking forward to going to Magadi. I have never been there and you owe it to the Delegates here. Give us a day, a working day and preferably we can even go in the afternoon today because today we are looking at things which were not on the program (Clapping). We have been very patient Mr. Chair, please let us continue the way we are but we would like to go to Magadi today. If we do not go to Magadi today give us a holiday today.

Page 7 of 20 Last printed Hon. Delegate Baldip Singh Rihal: Okay, let me take 271 quickly. Delegate 271.

Hon. Delegate Amos Kiumo: 271, Amos Kiumo. Chair, I am not going to take you for a ride the way someone is taking us for a ride but I will say what I have heard. We shall not go to Magadi because some shareholders somewhere have decided that we should not be given the opportunity to see what is happening there (clapping). We have been given the right reasons why this is being cancelled; it is to the interest of some people outside who are exploiting that area, some people who are Africans-Kenyans who are doing terrible things to our country. Mr. Chairman, we are saying this; let our people not be taken for a ride. The Maasais’ have been exploited for too long, the people of Kenya have been exploited for too long. Give us the opportunity to go and see what there is there and we shall set a precedence to all the other areas that are being exploited Mr. Chairman. Thank you. (Clapping).

Hon. Delegate Baldip Singh Rihal: Okay, thank you. Let me recognize 447.

Hon. Delegate Kennedy Kiliku: 447, my name is Kennedy Kiliku. It is quite unfortunate having got independence in 1963, that up to this moment this country is being controlled by the white man. The Steering Committee is being controlled from outside. I have been given to understand (clapping) that a very powerful politician who happens to come from that area, Rift valley, has influenced the postponement of this trip because he does not want the people of this country, because we are going there with the Press, to see how Maasais’ have been marginalized, how Maasais’ have been forgotten and now you are telling us we are going there at the mercy of the management of the Company. This Conference? Constitutional Conference to go there at the mercy of the white man? No way! We are going today and this is a Conference and the Steering Committee is a Committee of the Conference and its decision is not supreme over the decision of the Conference! (Clapping). Therefore, I support the Motion which was moved by my neighbour here yesterday, that today we either go to Magadi or we will not go because we cannot just operate at the mercy of the external forces and those people who are the enemies of this Conference.

Hon. Delegate Baldip Singh Rihal: Okay, point is taken. Let me recognize 352.

Page 8 of 20 Last printed Hon. Delegate Phillip Ole Sironka: Honourable Chair, my name is Phillip Ole Sironka, Delegate 461, from Kajiado and in fact from Magadi region. I am just surprised and I am shocked to come and just to learn at the last minute that we had an opportunity to go to my place or home and just to be let down by the Conference that we are not going to be visiting that place today. I know most of the Delegates here today were mentally prepared and they are even dressed in that way because they know Magadi is a very hot place and they know Magadi is not a place where there is a lot of cold. They knew that they are going to see a lot of things. I come from the Committee of Lands and Natural Resources and I thought we had been given an opportunity by the Conference to visit that place as one of the examples to learn and put more input in the Draft Constitution that we are making here. As I speak here, there are my brothers, about thirty people who were arrested in Magadi and they are already in prison and it was just recently that we visited the Administration Police. Why can’t we also visit Magadi? I know we had some impact in the Administration Police at Embakasi when we went there as a Conference or a Committee. Why can’t we go there and also make some noise and make sure that the rights of those people are recognized? (Clapping). I tell you, if you go to Magadi right now, those people-- It is a fact what my colleague has just said, that there is a white man who is installing a plant which is costing more than one billion shillings in that Magadi Company without consideration of the surrounding. I cannot be convinced that the visit was postponed because of some issues which pertain to this Conference but it is because of the influence from outside, from somebody who is not interested or who is a shareholder of the Company who is influencing the whole administration and is even influencing the administration of this Conference. Thank you very much.

Hon. Delegate Baldip Singh Rihal: Honourable Delegates, let me make one or two points at this stage. Whilst we understand, sitting at this Chair this morning, the feelings of the Delegates and we also understand that the visit was put in the programme, but let me be honest Honourable Delegates; the matter had not been cleared with the Magadi management before it was put on the programme--

(Uproar on the floor).

Page 9 of 20 Last printed Hon. Delegate Baldip Singh Rihal: Please! Please bear with me. Those are the facts. Therefore the Secretariat is doing its best to arrange the visit on a suitable day.

(Noisy comments and uproar on the floor).

Hon. Delegate Baldip Singh Rihal: Now, please Honourable Delegates, let us also consider our position as Delegates to the National Constitutional Conference. Our core business is not to go on visits but to review the Draft Constitution that has been produced by the Constitutional Commission. This is what we are here for, so please--

(Noise and uproar).

Hon. Delegate Baldip Singh Rihal: --Delegates please bear with us. You know, we have told the Secretariat this morning--

(Noise and uproar).

Hon. Delegate Baldip Singh Rihal: Please. Please Delegates, I plead with you, let us have some order. I will recognize all the Delegates who want to speak but please one by one, not everybody together. Okay, let me recognize-- I was here, I will recognize 596. I will come back please, I am going this way. 596 please make your point.

Hon. Delegate Hezron K. N. Manonda: Delegate number 596, Hezron Nyerere Manonda. Revisiting my earlier issues here in this Conference, one day I stated to this Conference that Magadi Soda is a very important company in this country. Magadi Soda has been cheating Kenyans that it is manufacturing Chumvi - salt, while Magadi Soda is manufacturing minerals that are making glass and Kenya is either the second or third country in the World that is manufacturing this material. At the same time when we have snow in Europe, America, Canada or wherever material from Magadi Soda is used in destroying that snow. So, Magadi Soda is earning this country billions of dollars not even shillings and the Maasai people are not the beneficiaries of their homeland’s natural resources in this country. Magadi Soda is one of the national resources which can uplift this economy of Kenya and which can cover the whole

Page 10 of 20 Last printed country. So, what do we do? We want to see these beneficiaries at Magadi which does not benefit the Maasai people. Thank you. (Clapping).

Hon. Delegate Baldip Singh: Okay. Let me recognize Delegate number 357.

Hon. Delegate Teclah Munkushi: Thank you, Chair. I am Delegate number 357 my name is Teclah Munkushi. Chair, it is really disgusting that the Steering Committee is taking this Conference for a ride like the way the Magadi Soda Company is taking the Maasai’s for a ride. You know, if the Steering Committee had arranged for us to go there, there is no need for you to cancel it and making another date for us to go there, we either go today or not. Thank you.

Hon. Delegate Baldip Singh: Okay. I recognize Delegate number 390.

(Noise from Honourable Delegates)

Hon. Delgate Baldip Singh: I am coming back please, you have had your chance.

Hon. Delegate Margaret Nyathogora: Chairman, I am on the floor. My names are Margaret Nyathogora Delegate number 303 from Nyeri. Chairman, I do not know but things are bad right now. You have made a habit of putting Delegates on the floor, kicking them right and left as if they are not Honourable. Chairman, yesterday you heard our feelings, this minute you are hearing our feelings, you still say you want to continue to hear our feelings so that you may tell the Secretariat I do not know when. Chairman, it is so bad that after forty years of independence, we are still being ruled by white people, influencing some of the politicians, very influential politicians in that area who are shareholders, they do not want us to go there, they do not want Kenyans to go and see how Maasai’s are being mistreated and mishandled.

How long are Maasai’s going to be marginalized? It is high time Chairman, we are not going to compromise on this, I came prepared, everybody came prepared because you people, you told us that in the afternoon, you are going to hold a meeting and you are going to decide on our going. When I look at the programme there is nothing we are doing here, the cultural activities have finished, let us go to the buses, go to Magadi right now.

Page 11 of 20 Last printed Hon. Delegates: Now!

Hon. Delegate Baldip Singh: Okay, the point is taken. Honourable Delegates, my Co-Chair Mr. Nyabote, wants to say something, I give the floor to him.

(Noise from Honourable Delegates)

Hon. Delegate Baldip Rihal: Please, please have patience, we will allow everybody to speak.

(Noise from Honourable Delegates)

Hon. Delegate Baldip Singh: I give the floor to Delegate number 390.

Hon. Delegate Kellan Wavomba: Thank you very much, Chairman. My names are Kellen Wavomba Delegate number 390- -

Hon. Delegate Baldip Singh: Yes, carry on.

Hon. Delegate Kellan Wavomba: Mr. Chairman, it is surprising that you people still want to get our feelings, but I want to tell you that we now have no feelings for you people, you will no longer get our feelings, Mr. Chairman. What we have decided now is either to go to Magadi Soda or not to go. Mr. Chairman, yesterday a Delegate proposed here that you go and meet during lunchtime, that is at Steering. Mr. Chairman, we Delegates from Districts and the Provinces elected fellow Delegates to go and represent us at the Steering, but we are surprised that instead of representing our views at the Steering you have now turned your back to us and you are representing other people and that you do not want to look at our interests.

Mr. Chairman, I want to say this, that before you decided to announce that we are going to Magadi Soda, you must have spoken to the management of Magadi Soda and, that is when you informed us. Now you are saying you are talking to them, who are these other management of Magadi Soda? We either go to Magadi or you take us back to our rooms we go and rest. Thank you.

Page 12 of 20 Last printed Hon. Delegate Baldip Singh: Okay, I think the point that is being made by the Honourable Delegates, the Chair this morning understands and appreciates that. I am only Chairing the Session this morning I am not the final decision maker in this matter- -

Hon. Delegates: No.

Hon. Delegate Balip Singh: - - but I will convey your feelings to the Secretariat as soon as we finish this Session this morning. Okay, let me recognize 336.

Hon. Delegate Chebii Mkawerweren: Bwana Chairman, my Delegate number is 336 my name is Mkawereweren Chebii. I would like to tell you Bwana Chairman, that we shall put a Motion to censor you. These are the feelings of the Delegates that they need to go to Magadi Soda. Secondly, Bwana Chairman, is that you have put a programme and you never told us there is Magadi Soda and now, you have brought that back again. You know Bwana Chairman, it is the Steering Committee we elected here and they cannot overrule this Conference and if you want, you put the question, if these Delegates are agreeing then we go. By the way, Magadi Soda, you know Kenya is Kenya for Kenyans not for foreigners and we shall not accept at any moment for people from outside to steal our own minerals, especially when you see the people of the Maasai community have suffered a lot.

Bwana Chairman, you know when you dictate to Honourable Delegates that we are postponed, who is the super power, is it the Delegates or the Steering Committee? They will stop that behaviour and of course, I say put the question. Put the question and we agree or not.

Hon. Delegate Baldip Singh: Okay, I am finishing the round this side. Let me just now recognize 381, because everybody is making the same point, we have noted that. So, 381, what do you want to say, please.

Hon. Delegate Rita Katamu: Honourable Chair, I have a contrary opinion. Considering what we were taken through yesterday, we are displaying ourselves again. There is no need of forcing ourselves to go to Magadi Soda, it is not within the Draft Bill. Let us talk about what has brought us here, let us actually consider, we are playing into the hands of the people who want to

Page 13 of 20 Last printed ruin this process. Let us read higher, let us read forward, and let us do what really brought us to this Conference.

Hon. Delegate Baldip Singh: Okay, let me recognize Delegate number 382.

Hon. Delegate Sammy Amunga: Thank you very much, Honourable Chairperson. My names are Sammy Aswani Amunga Delegate number 382. Mr. Chairman, from the views that have come from the floor, everybody seems to be convinced that they will have to go to Magadi, but yesterday we had a Vice Chairperson whom we elected, he promised us that he would communicate back to us. After us having waited for many hours, we have not seen him. Could you please assure us that you are going to bring him here, let him tell us the reason why he had promised us that he would communicate back to us and he has not done that. This opening of the debate of discussion was not supposed to have been there but it has come about because the Vice Chairperson has failed to perform his duties by not communicating back to us. Therefore, could you please assure us within ten minutes, you are going to look for him, let him come here, let us be told whether the persons are available or not, if not then we proceed with today’s business.

Hon. Delegate Baldip Singh: Okay, the answer to that question is, Honourable Delegates, the Vice Chair is busy in the Consensus meeting this morning, which was starting at 9.30 a.m. so, straight from finishing the Steering Committee he had to proceed to the other venue and, I was asked to step in and Chair this Plenary Session this morning. So, what I want to plead with the Delegates here is, please Ladies and Gentlemen, Honourable Delegates, let us be patient about this matter, your feelings have been noted by me and I also saw what we were saying yesterday here in the Plenary in the morning. I am going to convey your message to the Secretariat in the most strongest terms possible and tell them, that this matter needs to be sorted out at the earliest moment and it has been indicated that they are proposing this visit on Saturday. So, if it materializes, we will communicate with you because as I say, it also depends on the management of Magadi Soda, when they can receive us.

Secondly, going on a working day might prove to be difficult because the Delegates who are in Mombasa, the Rapporteurs and the Convenors, have been working on the harmonization of the various Chapters. They are finishing their work today and most of the team members will be

Page 14 of 20 Last printed back in Nairobi tonight and tomorrow morning, we will get a report from them at the Steering and then the Draft Chapters as polished by them will be given back to the individual Technical Working Groups to go over them, then we have to start the major Plenary Session sometime next week. So, it might be difficult to organize the visit on a working day, as far as our own working programme is concerned, but I will certainly convey your feelings. So, let me take this side, okay, I take Delegate number 608. I have recognized Delegate number 608, let me give the floor to him, please.

Hon. Delegate Lihanda Savai: Thank you, Chairman. I am Delegate number 608, Dr. Lihanda Savai and, I am appealing to the Honourable Delegates here that we are not only writing the Constitution, but also liberating Kenya. Magadi Soda is beneficial to the Queen of England. The money that is taken from Magadi Soda is for the Queen to pay her civil servants when our people, the Maasai, have no food. They have no education and the resources are from them. Magadi Soda has got a treaty which the Princes made here in 1977, the Parliament has been there for forty years yet they have not realized that these resources can be used by Kenyans for their development and needs. Therefore, in this Conference here, we cannot be led by foreigners who own our country to be invited to see what we are doing. We have to see practically what is happening at Magadi Soda since it is nearer to us here. Therefore, it is not only that, we have been here under the mercy of the foreigners and the Members of Parliament- -

Hon. Delegate Baldip Singh: Okay, Honourable Delegate, we have got you point.

Hon. Delegate Lihanda Savai: - - and they do not want us to open that Chapter and by all means, we organize to go to Magadi Soda regardless of the Steering Committee which are peddling us. Thank you.

Hon. Delegate Baldip Singh: Okay, thank you. I just want to come back to this corner. Delegate number 626, because I had not come here, let me finish this side and then I will come back.

Hon. Delegate Mamo Ambundo: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This is to all the Delegates, we are missing a point here, and we are not reading the signs of the times. If you read the signs of the times, today if you look at the Nation newspaper, the Standard Newspaper, if you look at the Page 15 of 20 Last printed news, there was nothing on this issue of Magadi. In other words, the message that you are being given is, they do not want you to go to Magadi. Here you are as Delegates, you do have a weapon to use that you are not using. We are here to rewrite wrongs that have been done to Kenyans. So, let us not lose that opportunity, let us be quiet, let us do our work. We know what to correct. Let us go back to all the Committees, the Land Committee, the Finance Committee, let us correct these wrongs there, not in Magadi. So, shall we continue with our work?

Hon. Delegate Baldip Singh: Okay, Honourable Delegate, please, as I said, sitting in this Chair, it is a very difficult job because everybody wants to speak and I can now see, we are just repeating ourselves. As I said, Honourable Delegates, please bear with us, bear with me because I am giving you my personal assurance that I am going to convey the feelings of this Plenary this morning to the Secretariat in the strongest possible terms and advise them that if this visit is to take place, that it be organized as soon as possible. If it is this coming Saturday, we will know it by tomorrow or latest by Friday and then, we will make suitable announcements. If it can be organized on a working day, I will also convey that message to the Secretariat and let them work it out in conjunction with the management of Magadi Soda. So, can we please - because we are now repeating, your points have been noted – so, can we please now move on to other things and close the discussion on this very issue. Are we in agreement, please?

Hon. Delegates: (Inaudible)

Hon. Delegate Baldip Singh: Okay, I put the question. As many as are of that opinion that we close this discussion, please say “AYE”.

Hon. Delegates: “AYE”.

Hon. Delegate Baldip Singh: As many as are of the contrary opinion that we continue to ventilate more feelings say “NAY”.

Silence.

Page 16 of 20 Last printed Hon. Delegate Baldip Singh: So, the “AYES” have it. So, please your message, your feelings will be conveyed straight away after I finish this Session. Mr. Nyabote, wanted to say something. Anyway, he has agreed, he just wanted to say what I have said so, if we can please close this discussion on this issue. Now, is their any other issue before we break for tea and then we go to our respective camps as indicated in the programme? Is their any other matter, which members feel like raising?

Hon. Delegate Ruth Oniang’o: Point of Order, Mr. Chairman.

Hon. Delegate Baldip Singh: Yes, what is your Point of Order?

Hon. Delegate Ruth Oniang’o: Mr. Chairman, I am Delegate number 221 Honourable Ruth Oniang’o, I am on the Steering Committee representing Western Province and I am on the Steering Committee with you. I sent you a note saying I wanted to speak and you have not let me. Let me tell you this, the issue of Magadi Soda was put on that programme, not by the Steering Committee and it was removed, not by the Steering Committee, that is one point. The second point is that the matters, which concern Magadi Soda where we are still recolonized are the same as we see in hotels like the Hilton, where our members staying there are being mistreated, treated like third class citizens. At the same time we are seeing about any company where squatters are, including Mwea Rice Scheme or any other scheme, Tea Schemes and so on and Kenyans are not even feeling a sense of ownership of their own country. So, these are the issues that people want to talk about and the reason why they wanted to go to Magadi Soda.

My fellow Delegates, let me tell you this. That we realize that if we go to Magadi Soda we are not going to see what we want to see. If we go to Magadi Soda, somebody else already went there and they were prevented because some other politician has an upper hand, a Kenyan, our own fellow Kenyan who wants to see Kenyans continue to suffer. So, the reason why we are doing a new Constitution, and the Media will help us here, is that we want to re-own and repossess our own country and our own resources and if the Media is truly with us, I have a recommendation on the way forward. We want to prepare a statement on Magadi Soda and use it as a case example and then, we issue that statement. Already Magadi Soda people are aware of what we are saying, we have been told in the Steering Committee that apparently the contract is

Page 17 of 20 Last printed up for renewal right now and so, the reason why they do not want us to go there is so that they can renew that contract for whatever number of years, maybe ninety nine, quietly while we are still working on this Constitution.

So, we want the Media to assist us to print that statement and that it is coming from all of us here at Bomas and, (Clapping) that our hearts go out to our Maasai brothers and sisters and, that in fact if that contract is renewed along the same bad terms, that in fact, as Kenyans we do not want to be party to it, we shall not allow it and it will be revoked the minute we actually are able to do it legally. So, Mr. Chairman, you have not done a good job of representing the Steering Committee, because I do not want to be removed from that Steering Committee, I am representing Western Kenya and most Steering Committee members were not party to these decisions, I want to assure you of that. So, that is my recommendation, we have a statement, if somebody can take up the leadership in that, preparing it, one of our Media people who are here and we all issue that statement from here. Having said that, we do not have to go to Magadi Soda today, let us just go ahead and continue with our work because we have a heavy responsibility right now and while I am standing, I can assure you I sat in Parliament yesterday for five hours, “Kamukunji “and I would like to appeal to you and I would like to again appeal to the Media, start tracking every Delegate by name, by name until we finish this process.

We took an oath individually, we took an oath to God and this process still has a long way to go, there are three critical areas. One, where we have to pass every Clause, by two thirds of the 629 Delegates, people can choose to stay out so we do not meet the two thirds. We also have two thirds required of the total membership of Parliament of the total 222 to pass anything. People can sneak and stay away so that that does not happen and that is why we need to the Media to keep tracking every individual at every stage. Were you present or were you not present? Otherwise, we go ahead with this process and finish it and we deliver the document that Kenyans want us to do. Thank you. (Clapping)

Hon. Delegate Baldip Singh: Okay, Honourable Delegates, I would like to thank Honourable Delegate number 221, Professor Ruth Oniang’o, for the clarification she has made, I am grateful to her. I may have missed one or two points in my clarifications, which she has very adequately covered. So, if you are all in agreement with what the Professor has said- -

Page 18 of 20 Last printed Hon. Delegates: Yes.

Hon. Delegate Baldip Singh: - -then we can proceed from this point, that whatever statement the Delegates want to prepare be prepared and we can issue it as a Conference Delegates here in Bomas on this very issue and, as to the visit, we still leave it to the Secretariat and see what arrangements they can make if it is possible. So, can we close this issue on that basis, please. Are we in agreement?

Hon. Delegates: Yes.

Hon. Delegate Baldip Singh: Okay, I would like to now propose, since it is approaching 10.30 a.m.- -

Hon. Delegate Orie Rogo Manduli: Point of Order, Chair.

Hon. Delegate Baldip Singh: Is it something else? We can take some other point, not this one. Delegate number 594.

Hon. Delegate Orie Rogo Manduli: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am Delegate number 594, Honourable Orie Rogo Manduli, Political Parties. I agree with my sister, Honourable Oniang’o, I am also a member of the Steering Committee and you know how I like the rights of the people to be upheld. That is precisely the position, but right here we are grappling with issues that are urgent and that we must finish and, we cannot finish these issues without our brothers and sisters in Parliament and, I am appealing to each one of you, each one of us here has a Member of Parliament, there is nobody here who has not got a Member of Parliament. I want you to tell your Member of Parliament to his face, they are all in Nairobi here, whatever constituency they represent they are in Nairobi. Catch your MP by the collar or by the jacket or by the kitamba akiwa ni Mama, tell them if they do not come here and do the work with us as they pledged to do - because each Member of Parliament is a Delegate by right, – you will make sure they never see the doors of Parliament again ever.

Page 19 of 20 Last printed There is nothing they fear like hearing that they will never see the doors of Parliament. They are all here moonlighting, except for a few very faithful ones like Honourable Oniang’o, who never misses, she never misses, and right here we have some Members of Parliament here with us, I saw Mama Betty Tett, I have seen all my Members of Parliament from FORD People, my party is FORD People and I will make sure that this Member of Parliament from FORD People is here, that is my duty and we have representatives here. Now, one more thing- -

Hon. Delegate Baldip Singh: Okay, that is enough, Honourable Manduli, that is enough please, we have taken note of your point.

Hon. Delegate Orie Rogo Manduli: Chairman, just one more point, please. We have a problem with Honourable Mbai. Honourable Mbai’s case is being sat on, we are fellow Delegates here, he died because of us- -

Hon. Delegate Baldip Singh: Okay, Honourable Manduli, your point has been noted so, please, thank you very much- -

Hon. Delegate Orie Rogo Manduli: Honourable Odhiambo’s case is being thrown away, we must agitate to make sure it is not thrown away. Yesterday there was no Prosecutor- -

Hon. Delegate Baldip Singh: Okay, Honourable Manduli, that is enough please, thank you very much. Okay, Honourable Delegates, the Plenary Session is now closed, we go for our coffee break and then you reassemble in your respective Tents and continue with the rest of the programme. Thank you very much.

The Meeting adjourned at 10.30 a.m.

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