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ABORIGINAL AND TORRES STRAIT ISLANDER ELECTED BODY

(Reference: Estimates process 201112)

Members:

MR RODNEY (ROD) LITTLE (The Chair) MS DIANE COLLINS (The Deputy Chair) MR JOHN PAUL JANKE MR WILLIAM (BENNY) HODGES MS LYNETTE GOODWIN MS ROSLYN BROWN MR BRENDAN CHURCH

TRANSCRIPT OF EVIDENCE

CANBERRA

TUESDAY, 13 DECEMBER 2011

Committee contact officer: Mr Darryl Brooks Community Services Directorate GPO Box 158 CANBERRA CITY ACT 2601 APPEARANCES

Economic Development Directorate...... 129 Education and Training Directorate...... 101 Health Directorate...... 204 Justice and Community Safety Directorate...... 146 Territory and Municipal Services Directorate...... 186 The committee met at 9.36 am.

Education and Training Directorate Watterston, Dr Jim, Director-General Joseph, Ms Diane, Deputy Director-General Johnston, Ms Jayne, Executive Director, School Improvement Cover, Ms Leanne, Executive Director, Tertiary and International Education Gniel, Mr Steve, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Education and Student Support Huard, Ms Anne, School Network Leader, School Network North/Gungahlin Wilks, Ms Trish, Director, Learning and Teaching Stewart, Ms Tracy, Director, Planning and Performance Chan, Ms Yu-Lan, Acting Director, Human Resources Nean, Mr Phill, Manager, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Education Marron, Mr Adrian, Chief Executive Officer, Canberra Institute of Technology Stenlake, Dr Nicole, Executive Director, Governance and Executive Services, Canberra Institute of Technology Kay, Mr Shane, Director, Central Support Centre, Canberra Institute of Technology Hughes, Ms Caroline, Director, Yurauna Centre, Canberra Institute of Technology

THE CHAIR: We welcome you here. I will just get Roslyn to do the welcome to country and then I will go into the broad statement.

MS BROWN: I am a member of the elected body and I am also Chairperson of the United Ngunnawal Elders Council. On behalf of the elders council, I welcome you today.

THE CHAIR: We have all got name tags so we can maximise the time we have with you today, Jim. As you said, it is a bit different and cosier than last year, which is great. We have some generic questions which we will provide to directorates. Generally those things are around major events and about informing the elected body when things happen that involve Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples.

Let me mention one of those things as an example. The minister went along to something at Erindale and we did not know what was going on. We thought we needed to know these things, because the community asks us. We did not know about this. They come to us and ask us; it is a bit embarrassing if we do not know. So there is a clear message, Adrian, firstly.

Another thing is about employment strategies across every directorate. We will be asking about your numbers and those sorts of things. We will be asking each of the directorates about their involvement with the respect, equity and diversity plan and how the directorate is implementing the strategies under that plan.

The last thing is about where policies and programs have made significant differences to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. We will talk a bit more about that soon.

One of the important things that I have mentioned to you at different forums is that what is of interest to us is the transition points—through schooling, but also from ATSIEB—13-12-11 3 Education and Training Directorate schooling to, say, CIT or a university. Those things are of particular interest to us. I wanted everybody to hear that so that they have a bit of an idea about where we are coming from and where we want to go. We are looking ahead for our people here in the ACT. And I am sure you have a lot of programs that you can tell us about that have been effective.

Dr Watterson: Sure.

THE CHAIR: You would be aware of our functions under the act.

Dr Watterson: Yes.

THE CHAIR: We will be bringing those back so that we can get a clearer understanding about your performance and your reports in the annual reports. You may have heard already that we have spent two or three days preparing for this meeting. We have gone through annual reports. We have gone through the government’s report—the response to our last report. We are also using the justice agreement as a basis for ensuring that actions have been taken. There are some actions in the justice agreement which we are asking about—if there has been action, then we need to cut them off and look for something new to build in there to progress things. So that is just to give you a bit of an overview of where we are going today. We will ask some of those and get a response on those fairly generic ones very briefly; then we will start to delve into some particular questions. Okay?

Dr Watterson: Okay; thank you. Are you okay if I just say a few things?

THE CHAIR: Yes.

Dr Watterson: Thank you. I endorse Roslyn’s welcome to country, I acknowledge the Ngunnawal people and I just say that it is a privilege to be here. This is something that we welcome. Having the opportunity to come along to the estimates hearings on an annual basis really makes us take stock of what we are doing. As a group, after last year’s hearings, we talked about making sure that when we come back this year we are talking about what we achieved in the 12-month period, not things that we are planning. There is always this structure around making sure that we have got processes in place. We are now really conscious about achievements as well as continuing a long-term plan and some long-term strategies.

By way of introduction, can I just say that there are a few highlights this year for us. One of the highlights is the increase in Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander students in our system. Over the last 12 months we have increased by 75 students, which is about 6.2 per cent, and over the last four years there has been a 38.7 per cent increase in student numbers. We put that down to a lot of things, but mostly engagement and some of the strategies that are in place to ensure that students are having a good experience.

Paradoxically, though, if I cut straight to the other side of the equation—I am sure you have noticed and you will want to ask questions about it today—our attendance numbers for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander students have dropped a bit. That is probably a normal reaction, because we are now holding a lot of kids in the system who were not otherwise there. Certainly you will be aware that about a year and a half ago now the ACT government changed legislation so that students cannot leave at the ATSIEB—13-12-11 4 Education and Training Directorate end of year 10; they stay until year 12. We can talk a bit about our retention at those levels. For some kids, education is something that they are attending more regularly, but they are still having those days off. We are working really strongly right across our agency to make sure that we improve that attendance. I am sure that Phill and Steve will talk about that as we go forward.

And there is another major highlight that we really wanted to focus on. Maybe you have not had time to read it, but in today’s Australian newspaper there is a really good article about preschool and early childhood education for Indigenous students—the benefit of that and what the pay-off is down the track. In our area, in the ACT, we have a wonderful story to tell about our early learning programs for Indigenous students and the large increase in the numbers of those students in those programs. Also, the evidence about the performance has improved over the last 12 months; we will talk about that as well.

If we are going to be really honest, though, let me say that, in terms of the national closing the gap strategy, our Indigenous students in the ACT are the highest performing students in Australia but we still have a gap. We have a higher gap, but there is no doubt that we are striving to minimise that differential. It is hard work, as you know. It is hard work for non-Indigenous students. There are a lot of initiatives in place that are Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander inspired, but also generically it is implemented across our whole department. Even though we do not talk about specific strategies that are to do with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander students, there are a lot of things in place that we are working on.

In terms of year 3 literacy, for example, our target as part of that strategy was to have 90 per cent of Indigenous students meet the minimum acceptable level. We have done that. We do not feel as though we have reached the end point. It is good that we got to the target, and we are certainly making gains, but we are really working hard now. You will be aware that our motto or our strategic plan title is “Everyone matters”. “Everyone” means the 10 per cent that are not making the minimum accepted progress. We are striving really hard now to do that but, as you know, it involves community, it involves building relationships with families, and it involves making sure that we are all engaged in that. That is part of the work that we are doing.

You will also be aware that we are refreshing or renewing our reconciliation action plan. The first plan was incredibly successful. It is acknowledged that we have got work to do, but we have brought people around the issues and we have got a consensus about where to go, making sure that this is a priority for the department.

They are my opening comments, if you like. If you would like to ask us specific questions, we can go into some of the issues. We are certainly keen. One of our four values in the Education and Training Directorate is honesty. It sounds weird that you have to say that that is one of your values, but we are of the view that we lay it all out on the table. We do not try and talk the information or the data away. We are really keen to work with all community groups in the ACT and address the issues in an open and honest way. We are keen to do that with you today.

THE CHAIR: Thanks for that, Jim. In response to that let me say this. You have said that we are doing well compared to the rest of the country. Our objective here for the elected body is that, whilst we have that and there is still a gap, it is still not good enough for us. I think you have accepted that before. Where we have one of the best, ATSIEB—13-12-11 5 Education and Training Directorate world-standard education systems in the country for black and white kids, it is not good enough that our kids are either just meeting the benchmark or still below the benchmark. There is still that gap. We want our kids to be above and on par with everyone else. That is an objective we can keep around for a while. We really understand that you are doing a hard job to try to close that gap.

You mentioned your reconciliation action plan. One of the generic things is that community engagement is critical. It is a priority for us this year. As we are going along and engaging more with community, we field questions from community. They say that something has happened at a particular school or whatever. We want to be very clear about what the processes are. This may impact on the reconciliation action plan on respecting diversity. It is about changing a culture in the school, across the directorate, in CIT or anywhere like that. We would like to know what have been some of those cultural changes in your organisations, your institutions, that give us confidence that things are starting to change. That relates to a question that Di has; I will pass it over to Di to ask about those sorts of processes so that we can inform community.

MS COLLINS: It is about the range of incidents that our Indigenous kids are encountering in school from K to 12. Can you give us an idea of what we need to be looking at, whether it is racism or whatever the issue might be, and how you are addressing those incidents—if there is a trend, I guess?

Dr Watterson: Sure. I would like to introduce Steve Gniel, who is our new director of student services. Steve has been in the role now for a while; he will talk about some of those things. You know Phill Nean, who is doing a great job for us. I will let them answer the question, but as an opening let me say this. I am 2½ years into the job now, having worked in Victoria and Western Australia. I have to say that ACT schools are the most culturally aware and culturally sensitive schools that I have ever seen, and I have been to a lot of different countries and a lot of different places. It does not mean that everything is right, and we have some great strategies that we are working on, but the cultural awareness training that we are now implementing for all leaders and then teachers is something that is—it is not overdue, but it is a great time to reinforce the values, the strategies and the beliefs that we have around this.

Can I also say that there are issues of racism and different areas that involve Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander students, but in the main kids are kids and some of these incidents are just kids doing what they do. Steve has put a lot of work into place, and Mark Collis before him, about our whole behaviour management strategy, which is a kind of overarching layer around these issues that we are talking about. Let me hand over to Steve and we can talk specifically.

MS COLLINS: I know that teachers talk about when kids are at school and if they do not do something that is appropriate there are consequences to that. I just feel that there are not enough consequences. When other teachers or principals within the school are not taking the appropriate action, there are incidents.

Dr Watterson: Okay. Let me hand you to Steve, but I can assure you that there are; we take those issues very seriously.

Mr Gniel: I think what I am hearing from you is about the leadership in those spaces around what the principal sets as the standard. We know from a lot of the research the ATSIEB—13-12-11 6 Education and Training Directorate importance of what the principal sets in terms of discipline but also the culture of the school. The cultural competency training that has been happening was targeted first at principals around their leadership capacity to understand culture and what that looks like.

If I can take myself as an example of that. I attended the culture competency training not that long ago. Professor Mark Rose spoke at that training session. The feedback we got from deputy principals at that stage was extremely positive around them continuing a journey of trying to understand the impact that some of the policies of the past have had on Aboriginal people.

I think it is that kind of understanding where, when they take that back into the school environment, they have a clear understanding of the impact of any kind of racism or behaviour that is in any way disrespectful to other students, and I would also say parents in the community as well—the way in which parents are treated as they walk in the door.

There is the cultural competency training aspect to that, but there is also what we are working on at the moment—and Mark Collis did some work before I came—around respect, equity and diversity in schools. We have had some policies in place I think since 2005 around the culture of schools and discrimination—all of these things. Even in that six-year period, a lot has happened. We know more about best practice in school settings. We are going through a process at the moment of redoing those policies and guidelines and advice for schools and principals about how to address these concerns.

We collect information about specific incidents of those things centrally as well so that we can monitor what is going on. The consequences that happen in individual schools depend very much on what the incident was, so it is hard to generalise about it. Certainly, from a department perspective, respect, equity and diversity are the central components in everything we do. The values in our plan around honesty, fairness and excellence have to permeate everything we do.

MS COLLINS: So there is cultural awareness training. Are the teachers doing that as well?

Mr Gniel: Yes. That will be rolled out to the teachers from here as well.

MS COLLINS: So has it been done yet?

Mr Gniel: Not yet, no. We started with the principals, the leadership teams and also department officials.

MS COLLINS: So is it hoped to be done by the end of the year, in three years or—

Mr Nean: The overall plan is that it will be done by the end of 2013. Besides the teaching staff it is also important that people other than teachers in our directorate undergo that training as well. We started at the beginning of this year with—and this comes back to what Jim and Steve were saying—our section being invited by non- teaching staff to do presentations at their professional learning activities in January and February this year. During the course of a couple of weeks we probably worked with over 220 office managers et cetera at the school level. We are starting with that ATSIEB—13-12-11 7 Education and Training Directorate group of people, as well as the school leaders and then the teachers.

Just to finish off on that, the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander education section and the human resources branch have been working very closely together on this cultural competency topic. Recently we have been developing a proposal which will hopefully allow us to develop a curriculum framework for cultural competency that can be rolled out across the system for all employees within Education and Training. That then allows us to have a more sustainable model for delivering this, rather than always relying on someone within our section and, if we leave, there is a possibility it could fall over.

We are looking at future sustainability and having a framework there. Part of that whole process then will be looking at how we engage with and involve local Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people through the elected body, through the consultative group.

MR HODGES: Di, I will just follow on from what you were asking. What is the cultural competency training that you have rolled out at this stage? Can you share a highlight? What is the one good thing that has come out of this?

Mr Gniel: I will start. With the one that I attended—I went to the one more recently around deputy principals—I guess the highlight for me in terms of being involved in putting these together was Professor Rose speaking to the group. He works across the country around cultural competency-type programs. He said that the ACT one is the one that he is most impressed with. The reason he cited for that was that it was not a token effort about cultural competency. It was not just a presentation at you and then you let it go. It was actually on the premise that, if people do not understand about cultural history in that way, then it is detrimental to everyone—Aboriginal people and non-Aboriginal people.

When he talked about that, it changed for me personally the way in which I do an acknowledgement of country, about it being about my understanding of these things. I grew up in Canberra. The training allowed me the time to understand from the speaker a personal history of his and to connect that to my personal history and where I was born. Phill talks about going back to his homelands and winding down the window, and the smell that he understands that is home. I personally did not understand that until I was able to sit down and use specific time to reflect on that for myself about where I live. Canberra is my home. When I acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land, I do it based on where I was born but also where I am raising my three children.

That is, I guess, the change for us. One of the things we talk about is that we have developed protocols for welcome to country and acknowledgement of country. When Phill and I talk about this, down the track we hope we do not need any kind of protocols—that it actually just comes from the heart. That is where I think the cultural competency training has been a highlight for me. Phill might like to add to that.

Mr Nean: I have just one other example, I suppose, of what people took away from the cultural competency training program. In June this year when one of our principals who attended the program went back to his school he spoke to his staff about the whole day and got such a reception from the staff that they then planned two weeks later several after-school activities where they started their own journey on ATSIEB—13-12-11 8 Education and Training Directorate cultural competency, rolling it out for all the staff in that school.

That is the sort of thing that is starting to happen, where it is not just a principal coming to a course and then going away; but taking it back and involving all of the staff in the school. They committed themselves to several hours after school to sit down with, listen to and talk with Aboriginal people around what they need to understand to better provide educational programs for their kids in the school. That sort of thing is happening. Rather than from a central level, it is happening at the bottom level.

MS BROWN: Not everybody is going to accept the way everyone is an individual, and these types of workshops really bring out anger in certain non-Indigenous people. What happens with them? Do they fall through the cracks and get a tick that they did cultural awareness training or do they have to go back and do it again until they really get it?

THE CHAIR: I think that comes back to the comment you made about noticing behavioural changes in your workplace. As you say, it is about starting to identify: what am I really doing, not just as an employee but as a person? When that behavioural change happens in your workplace and also in your community with your children and so on, that is when, I think, the changes will start to happen.

The problem that I have had—and I have had conversations with Mark too—is who does the assessments on these people? I have mentioned this to you before. Is it your supervisor? If your supervisor does the assessments then what are their qualifications and what is their level of competency, I suppose? It is interesting to hear that you are developing that curriculum which will start to embed some of that systemic change that we are hoping to achieve across the directorate.

Dr Watterston: Can I just take it in a slightly different direction? I think it is a really important point. You can culturally workshop people as much as you want—I have been involved in education for 30 years and I have seen this done before—but what makes this any different? Your point, Rod, was about how do you evaluate or measure it. The only way you can measure this is the stuff that I have talked about and which we have put in our annual report. It comes down to the outcomes of the kids. It is a big jump to go from cultural awareness training to asking how that improves outcomes and how that improves lives.

I was going to say before, Dianne, when you raised it that the most important anti- racism strategy in our department is to ensure that teachers have higher expectations. I think that is what the cultural awareness training will do. It is not that they did not have high expectations for Indigenous students before, but when they understand some of their life history, the background and some of the cultural differences then I think people shift their expectations. They then think, “Well, there’s no reason why you shouldn’t be performing at the highest possible level, but I just have to come at it in a different way.”

That is the change that I have seen. Some of the information, which we can go through but you would have read it in this annual report, says that we are getting improved outcomes. I think that is because, not just for Indigenous or Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander students, right across our department we have asked people to put a face to the names on the data. So rather than have, as I said before, “a 38 per ATSIEB—13-12-11 9 Education and Training Directorate cent increase in Aboriginal kids”, we want to know the names of the Aboriginal kids. We want to know the progress. That is some of the work that Phill and Steve and their team are doing.

It is not just good enough to say, “We got 90 per cent.” What are the names of the kids, the 10 per cent, that are not getting there? Just knowing their names does not go far enough. “Once we know their names, tell us about their progress.” What Steve is doing in his new role is collecting that information about all Indigenous students to find out what are they good at and what are they not good at. Let us measure their progress from the central office as well as within the school so that we are providing support not to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander kids but to individual kids. That is the difference.

MS BROWN: That is well and good, thank you, but I would like my question answered, please.

Dr Watterston: Yes, I am sorry.

MS BROWN: What happens when people are extremely angry and it has not been resolved? How do you resolve that?

Ms Chan: You mentioned, Rod, in your opening speech the respect, equity and diversity framework. We have been training our staff. We have picked the school leaders—so the teaching executive, the leaders in the school, the admin leaders in the school and also the administrative leaders in the central office. We have trained about 850 staff in the framework. That is about them talking to their staff about calling bad behaviour. So if you feel you are not being respected, what does respect look like? If you feel you are not being respected, what can you do about it? So it is empowering people to stand up when they see that there is behaviour that they do not like or they do not think is respectful—

MS BROWN: The question is about what happens to the people who fall through the cracks who do not get it about Aboriginal Australia? That is my specific question.

Dr Watterston: The answer to your question is that they do not. They do not fall through the cracks.

MS BROWN: Do they get some type of mentoring?

Dr Watterston: Absolutely. It is part of the work that Steve and Phill have just been talking about. This cultural competency is not about sheep-dipping people in a workshop and then you are finished, tick the box. And what Yu-Lan is talking about now from a HR point of view is that, with the strategies we have got in place, we have to call behaviour. So if there is a teacher in a school that displays adverse behaviour not just to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander beliefs or customs but in that—

MS BROWN: In this context I am talking about Aboriginals and Torres Strait Islanders.

Dr Watterston: But I am just saying generically. I am talking about all behaviour, including that behaviour.

ATSIEB—13-12-11 10 Education and Training Directorate MS BROWN: Yes, but I am specific to Aboriginals and Torres Strait Islanders.

Dr Watterston: Yes, absolutely. And if that behaviour is ever demonstrated, then we have processes in place where it is called, where it is identified and those people undertake behaviour management changing. And that happens.

MS BROWN: That is the answer I wanted.

Dr Watterston: That absolutely happens.

Ms Chan: And if I could add as well, that training is not just about supporting an individual, who feels they are being disrespected, to stand up. It is also about somebody as a leader in the school. If you see somebody whom you think is maybe putting up with bad behaviour, you do not wait for them to ask you for help, you go and say to them, “Would you like some support in this?” You see how they are feeling, to help them stand up for themselves as well if that is an issue.

Dr Watterston: Can I take that a little further? This sounds a bit weird, but that kind of person you are talking about is actually quite easy to deal with, if they display bad behaviour and you can see it and you can pick it. It is the kind of middle-road behaviour that we are talking about. So the answer I gave before about having higher expectations was an answer to your question. If someone is displaying really bad behaviour, then you can deal with it. It is people who have attitudes—“These kids are not going to achieve to the higher level”—which is the stuff that worries me, and that is the work that we are doing. So in a funny way—and those people would not feel it —the worst kind of racism of the lot is that people just do not have high expectations.

We have put a lot of work into that group of people, not that we can identify who that group of people are, to make sure that we understand what are some of the challenges and barriers from a cultural point of view that make mainstream education for some of these kids difficult. They can achieve. We have demonstrated it. We go to schools, and we see kids that make rapid progress when you come at it from a different point of view.

So I am answering your question. I am just saying there is more than one group of people. The angry people are a very minor group and they are easier to deal with because you can see it. It is the stuff you cannot see that we are working with.

MS BROWN: Do you offer support for the mums in the canteens? Sometimes they can say really racist things to children, whether intentional or not, “little Abo”, things like that. There are also gardeners. It is not just office workers and teachers.

Dr Watterston: Absolutely.

MS BROWN: There are other people that need support in working with and getting along with Aboriginal schoolchildren too.

Ms Chan: And that was the thinking behind training all the leaders across the school at all different levels, so that they can support their staff anywhere or anybody in the school. If you see any bad behaviour anywhere, you would look to address that straightaway.

ATSIEB—13-12-11 11 Education and Training Directorate THE CHAIR: The respect and diversity framework is there right across the ACT public service. It goes back to Di’s question about the processes. Something happens in the school and there is an interpretation or a misinterpretation of behaviour or language that is used in the school and then somebody gets angry about it. They may have been to some training or whatever. But that child then goes home and tells mum about the experience. Mum is not confident enough to come to the department to lodge a complaint or whatever because historically nothing has been done or whatever the reason.

What we are concerned about is where that family comes to us as a family—and this could happen to any one of their children—we want to be sure that we can provide the confidence for those people to say, “This is the process.” And what we need to do so that they have a good understanding of that process is explain that process to them and be there with them when they can use this process, to make sure that these types of behaviours get checked and something happens with it.

That is pretty good. You had another point.

MS COLLINS: That is good about the teachers and the admin staff and everyone on that side, but what about the kids and what is taught on that level in terms of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander culture, history, contemporary Australia? How is that embedded in the curriculum and at what levels? Is it only when they get to year 6? What is the detail around that?

Dr Watterston: We will bring in our curriculum expert.

Ms Wilks: You may be aware that in the new Australian curriculum Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander is a priority. What that means is that throughout the curriculum from kindergarten—in the Australian curriculum it is called foundation—right through to year 10 at this stage, wherever possible, teachers have to look and say where Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander information can be included in there. It could be as simple as, when you are doing mathematics, talking about numbers and how numbering is done in different cultures and things like that. It has just been recognised as absolutely essential for all students.

We have just started a process. It is already in the every chance to learn program, again some information about Aboriginals and Torres Strait Islanders, but this makes it far more specific. We started with a professional development course which was a specific one on the Ngunnawal people and went through really an understanding of culture, having Ngunnawal elders there. Sixty-five teachers came to that and it was really well accepted. But that was a one-off and we do not want it to be just a one-off. So whenever we are doing Australian curriculum professional development, we are looking and saying, “How do we put this priority into what we are doing?” Over time —and it will not be an immediate fix. There is no way of saying that—

MS BROWN: It cannot be too slow either.

Ms Wilks: No. That is—

MS BROWN: I am chairperson of the United Ngunnawal Elders Council. I would love to have a meeting with you and a conversation about this.

ATSIEB—13-12-11 12 Education and Training Directorate Ms Wilks: Yes, that would be wonderful.

MS BROWN: Thank you.

Ms Wilks: So over time, every student across Australia—but because we are a bit ahead of most of the other jurisdictions, hopefully we will be a bit faster with our students—will begin to get an understanding. It will just be seen as part of what happens in a school day. So it will not be this separate thing about Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. It will be that this is part and parcel of our learning every day across the curriculum.

THE CHAIR: Can I ask a question across the directorate. This curriculum is focusing pretty much on schools for now. How does that then be translated up to the next levels, say, to institutions like CIT and those other places?

Ms Wilks: You are talking about the understanding that our students have to then move through to when they transition to—

THE CHAIR: When they transition, yes, exactly.

Ms Wilks: I think I would have to ask a CIT person to—

THE CHAIR: Yes, but is that the objective?

Ms Wilks: That is absolutely the objective.

THE CHAIR: That would be good for us.

Ms Wilks: Absolutely, and all the way through to years 11 and 12. When the 11 and 12 Australian curriculum comes out, these priorities will be the same priorities that have been identified for every student.

THE CHAIR: Would it be fair to say, then, that this would be an ideal framework for the good grounding of young people to transition through their lives into the education system?

Ms Wilks: Absolutely, yes.

THE CHAIR: My next question is: how will that then move into year 12, using that curriculum, or does it need to change at a particular point? We are talking about young adults at about that time and then changing into—

Ms Wilks: As the Australian curriculum is being developed for years 11 and 12, at this time, that is, it is behind the foundation to year 10, it has not been finalised, mainly around the issues of certification. So year 12 becomes quite a difficult thing across jurisdictions but the priorities will still be the same. It is being recognised that this is something that as part of our nation-building all Australian children really need to understand. On a national level it is recognised. The issue that we have, of course, is to make sure that it is embedded into everything that we do.

In terms of the curriculum, which has come out as a digital resource, it highlights where there are examples called elaborations and you can then add in additional ATSIEB—13-12-11 13 Education and Training Directorate information which may then reflect, as one of the things, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander perspectives. But as well, we have to continuously work on that with our teachers. There is no question that this is not something that needs to be continually revisited. It is working with Phill’s area, it is thinking about such things as literacy and numeracy. So when we talk about resources there, we are talking about resources that reflect an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander perspective.

THE CHAIR: Is it reasonable for the elected body to expect some consultation through this process as you come across those difficult areas? I think that the more that we are informed, the more that we participate in a partnership relationship, that will add value to your curriculum.

Ms Wilks: Yes, absolutely.

THE CHAIR: The other point is: how is the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander educational consultative group involved in this process as well?

Ms Wilks: In terms of that professional development course, my understanding was that it was closely aligned with some of the elders. Roslyn, if you are saying you were not involved, I will go back to my notes and just check who was involved.

THE CHAIR: That was the other thing as well, yes.

MS BROWN: What was this again, sorry?

Ms Wilks: This was the professional development on the Ngunnawal people and a number of Ngunnawal elders were present at that. So I will give you the dates and show you the information about that.

THE CHAIR: Okay.

Ms Wilks: But I would be really happy to come with Phill to actually talk about some of these issues and your input into what you think would be some of the ways that we can bring this in.

THE CHAIR: Is that, then, a yes, you will consult and engage the elected body and the—

Ms Wilks: Yes, it is a “most certainly, yes.” Yes, I am more than happy to do that.

THE CHAIR: And the consultative group?

Ms Wilks: Yes, and to do that I would like to be invited to the meeting so—

Dr Watterston: I was just going to clarify that point. Of course we would like to but I do not want to be sitting here in 12 months time saying, “It did not happen.” So I guess we need to work out a process. Is it that we invite the group or do we have regular meetings with you? I just want to make sure that we get some action and give them the opportunities to do this rather than think it is a good idea.

THE CHAIR: Because of time now, perhaps we could have a briefing from the directorate about the progress on this bit of work. ATSIEB—13-12-11 14 Education and Training Directorate Dr Watterston: Sure.

THE CHAIR: And then we go from there.

Dr Watterston: Great.

MR JANKE: One of the issues I want to raise is in terms of resources to schools that are teaching Indigenous history as part of their curriculum. Does the directorate provide assistance to schools in terms of guidance on where to get resources that schools can access? One of the issues that a lot of schools highlight to me is that they want to teach Aboriginal studies or Indigenous studies but they do not have the necessary resources and it is left to schools to sort of surf the web and provide their own material. Does the directorate provide assistance in terms of saying to schools, “If you are going to teach these issues during NAIDOC Week, there are these resources available through the commonwealth government or through the ACT government. Here are some Indigenous organisations. Here is a list of Indigenous entertainers or dancers that schools can access.” So it is sort of offering a database where schools can access this material. Does the directorate provide that?

Mr Nean: We do provide quite a lot of that information on a regular basis, not just through curriculum but other means. For instance, we constantly send out information through emails and through the post about current materials, current teaching resources, that schools can use and also where to get them. So if they are Commonwealth government resources we give them contact details and then obviously it is up to the schools to access those.

As well, when we are visiting schools to do any sort of professional learning or discussions we take the resources with us, if we have them, so we can quite often leave them behind so schools can use them and access them. Information about all the agencies in the ACT: we constantly provide that, as well as a bit of a brief about what the agency’s or the organisation’s role is within the community and, more importantly, who the people are and how to access them. That is sent out more than once a term.

What we are finding, John Paul, is that a number of schools now are accessing not just the traditional sort of visual or performing artist; they are bringing in people who are published authors and other speakers, around whatever their role is, to work with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander students and all students and staff, so that goes on.

THE CHAIR: Can we just have one more, because I want to give Adrian an opportunity to come forward. Brendan has got a question and then I will ask a quick question about two things. One was that in your report you did not agree to the linguistic program and then, just briefly, if you can catch up and give us a bit of an update on the aspirations program. It is a good program and we want you to share some highlights with us.

MR CHURCH: My question might feed into Rod’s comment there. I just want to divert back to your opening comments when you said you wanted to have an open and honest conversation, which is great. I am interested to know what you think is working well and not working well in terms of policy development and the current ATSIEB—13-12-11 15 Education and Training Directorate delivery of education services, keeping in mind that the perception or the reality in the community is that the directorate has got an inability to respond to challenging behaviours. The curriculum is perceived as inappropriate. There are issues around transportation. There is a lack of community engagement and there is evidence of racism and bullying. What is your response to those? And there is just one other quick comment I want to make. There are also a lot of issues and evidence around the early identification of young people and the links with the justice system. I want to know what sort of work the directorate is doing in that space as well.

Dr Watterston: Okay, there were a lot of questions there, Brendan. You say there is evidence around those four things that you mentioned and certainly about behaviour and racism. I am not sure that there is evidence that supports that this is getting worse. Anne is here and she will talk about some of the evidence and the data that we collect.

My view is that behaviour, and management of that behaviour, in schools is getting better. But you are right to say it, and I am being open about this. When a family has got an issue, it is an issue that they are going to talk about and say that it is a problem. It is a problem for that family. So I do not dismiss what you are saying. Certainly there is no doubt about those things. But you asked what the highlight was for me, and I think the highlight is really what I said before when I was answering Dianne’s question, about this idea that we focus on individuals, that we are no longer worried about percentages and numbers. We are really talking about solving individual problems and looking at non-Indigenous students and Indigenous students as though there are unique challenges for each individual student rather than this idea that all Indigenous students have the same problems and the same issues.

It is kind of a generic highlight, but our department has done work on this. We brought a consultant over from Ontario who has talked to us about all kids, about making sure that we highlight and understand the needs of each individual. For our Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander kids that work has really permeated and I think we are seeing results. Our evidence says that things are getting better. The numbers of incidents are less. The way we deal with them we get better results. Anne, were you going to say something about that?

MR CHURCH: Can I just make a quick comment?

Dr Watterston: Yes, go on.

MR CHURCH: So that is basically saying that the directorate is willing to provide a tailored response to each individual?

Dr Watterston: Absolutely. Yes, absolutely, and I think it is the only way forward.

MR CHURCH: Yes. Okay.

Ms Huard: I am the school network leader for north Canberra and Gungahlin and I also am responsible for Jervis Bay. I have recently been a principal so I see one of the highlights as individualising our communication and relationships with parents. For a lot of our Indigenous parents school may not have been a really positive experience so we need to make sure that we walk in their shoes a little and understand that it can be really difficult to come into school. As a principal over a number of years I have been really pleased with the relationship building with parents; that they have the ATSIEB—13-12-11 16 Education and Training Directorate confidence to come in and talk, give their perspective and build that relationship with the schools is really important.

One of the programs that has been initiated this year and run by our teachers in our schools is our transition program. We are trialling it in north Canberra and Gungahlin. I was speaking to the principal at Ngunnawal primary this morning. They have five students who are moving from the primary into the high school. They want to develop those communication skills or tracks with parents and with students and with the primary school and with the high school. She was saying that they have five students who are transitioning this year. They have been through that meeting with parents so the parents feel that they are being heard. Teachers are specifically asked to listen and provide that support that students are going to get in the high school and that communication then will go back to the primaries, but also with the parents. She said all the families involved had commented that they really appreciated it and they felt it was a really positive step. I think the positive thing about it is that it is actually a trial program for all our families.

The same with Jervis Bay; Bob Pastor, who is the principal down there, a pretty outstanding fellow, has been able to make those links across the jurisdictions into New South Wales, both with the primary schools there and with Vincentia high school, to make sure that they are genuine and respectful pathways for kids and parents.

THE CHAIR: I am glad you mentioned both, because I do know those two examples that you used quite well and both those principals are doing good things. We would be interested in the progress of the transition program, how it is going, on a regular basis, I guess. I think it would be great for the members to have a conversation with Bob at some stage because he is a good person that really promotes the good things that he is doing down there—of course most of the kids come from the Wreck Bay community but alsothe name escapes me—from Ngunnawal?

Ms Huard: Leanne.

THE CHAIR: Leanne, yes. They are very good and I think that if we have that conversation with principals like that we get a better understanding. I do know that Leanne has had to say to some families, “I can’t fit you in.” But there are families coming from interstate that want to go to Ngunnawal primary—

Ms Huard: Yes, because they feel very welcome.

THE CHAIR: because they feel very welcome and they feel very comfortable. Thank you for that. On the recommendation about the linguistic program, Therapy ACT said they will present an assessment on the model in the future. Do you know where we are at with that, the status of that?

Dr Watterston: No. We will have to take that one on notice, if that is okay, and we will get back to you with the answer to that.

THE CHAIR: That would be terrific. The other was the aspirations program. It is a fairly positive program that I have a bit of knowledge of. But can you just highlight for us a couple of things—some of the internal behavioural changes? You talked a little bit about attendance—whether the aspirations stuff has influenced that rise—but ATSIEB—13-12-11 17 Education and Training Directorate now attendance is down a little bit. What can assist to bring that back up again?

Dr Watterston: I will hand over to Phill, Anne and Steve, but can I just make some brief comments about the attendance? It is like all averages. On the whole attendance is quite good. Because of our sort of comparatively lower numbers of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander students in our system, it only takes one or two kids who miss a lot of school to really drag that down. I am not talking away the information—it is real, and we need to do something about it—but in the main attendance is improving for the mainstream number of kids and we are doing okay. It is those kids that we are still trying to engage; the individual bit that I talked to Brendan about.

To finish the answer to yours, Brendan, because I know that some of the issues you brought up were real and they are big for some families, the little bit that I would like to just add in here is that there need to be better processes for those families that are suffering from some of those issues to be able to communicate with the department so that we can individualise. I noticed you wrote down about the individualised response to each kid. We can do that better if families communicate with us clearly about what some of the problems are in that sense and what it looks like from a home point of view.

One of the things we could do with this group is to try and improve the processes for those people to communicate with us. If they need to come, start with me. If it gets a solution, let us do it that way.

MS COLLINS: I think it has to be outside the school where the incidence is happening—

Mr Watterston: Absolutely. Yes, absolutely.

MS COLLINS: Otherwise they are not confident to approach—

Mr Watterston: That is right. I know how difficult it is. When I was living in Victoria I ran the system and I found it difficult to go to my kids’ school and complain about some of the things that I thought were wrong. So if it is difficult for me it is difficult for everyone. We need to improve some of the communication processes and work out a way that those people can come back from it.

Phill, can you go on to talk about the aspirations program? Sorry; I diverted the question. I just wanted to finish that off with Brendan; that is all.

Mr Nean: The aspirations program: there are a lot of stories that are positive things happening. In my experience the program that we have is probably the best and most successful for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander students that I have seen for some time. That has also been reinforced by our colleagues from other jurisdictions about what we are doing and how we are doing. We work with students from year 5 through to year 12 and really look at nurturing. The number of students has increased and it comes back to what Jim and Steve were saying earlier, and what Rod and everyone else has agreed on, and that is about expectation. If you have expectations that students will achieve at the best that they can, they will respond accordingly.

When the program started two years ago, we had 37 students. At the end of 2010, early 2011, we had 131 students. So the numbers are increasing. The identification is ATSIEB—13-12-11 18 Education and Training Directorate happening. The year 12 kids who finished last year are staying in touch with the department. We have done some post-school destination things, so we know where these kids are. They are staying in touch with us and, if they said they were going to go to uni this year and they did not, we are able to work with them to find out what happened and be a bit of a facilitator to help them back onto that pathway.

We are doing work with the universities here in the ACT but also we take students to Melbourne and to Sydney. We are showing them the type of courses that they are interested in that may not be offered locally, so they are accessing those. They know what is available and what is required of them. It is moving students away from, I suppose, a traditional expectation for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander students. We now have quite a number of students who are going in to so many other fields. Kids are giving up their holidays throughout the year to work on activities to progress some of their own aspirations.

For example, this year and last year our year 9 and 10 students gave up their July holidays to work with ABC Australia in Canberra and also the national Indigenous television program, where they accessed journalists, producers and all people involved. There are people who are keen to move out into other fields, into journalism. We have got young people in a number of other areas. They are setting their sights into marine biology. Our role is to make that happen and to work with people to make that happen. It is a really successful program and it is ongoing.

MS BROWN: I need to ask a question through the chair. Aboriginal people across this country are crying out for our language to be put into the schools’ curriculum. What is happening with the Ngunnawal language for the schools of the ACT? Is it going to be included? Is it included in the curriculum?

Dr Watterston: There are some schools that have aspects of it but in terms of a total number I am not sure.

Ms Huard: No. Well, I do not think so.

THE CHAIR: Can we get a response to that?

Dr Watterston: We will do both. We will take it on notice but we will also look at perhaps some promotion and some development so that we can report back on that.

MS BROWN: That would be great because it is a beautiful language. All Aboriginal languages are beautiful and it is wonderful for kids to know another language. It is part of what you spoke about earlier, about really understanding it. I think it really promotes reconciliation because if little white kids are speaking it too, how wonderful it would be.

Ms Huard: I do know that at Jervis Bay they are actually working with the Wreck Bay community on a language program, hopefully for next year.

MS BROWN: We would love to work with you. The elders council would love to work with you on that. There is another question I must ask. Does the education directorate fund private schools?

Dr Watterston: On behalf of the government. The government gives us money and ATSIEB—13-12-11 19 Education and Training Directorate we administer it, but we do not actually give them part of our funding. We administer the money from the government that goes to independent schools.

MS BROWN: And it goes to schools such as Catholic schools?

Dr Watterston: It does.

MS BROWN: Okay, thank you.

Dr Watterston: But that is not their principal source of funding.

MS BROWN: No, I know it is commonwealth and other donations.

Dr Watterston: So really we are an office and we look after it and make sure it is spent properly, but we do not control it.

MS BROWN: But the ACT government does fund—

Dr Watterston: Partially, yes.

MS BROWN: private schools partially; thank you.

THE CHAIR: I will let John finish up with this and then I will invite Adrian up to the table.

MR JANKE: Jim, a point you raised at the start of the proceedings was about the falling school attendance. Has the directorate worked with the “learn earn legend!” program or has it been aware of that program through the Canberra Raiders?

Mr Nean: We are aware of it. We have not accessed it in its totality. What we are doing is working through the consultative group to set up structures so that we can put that and other strategies in place. Also, in terms of attendance and because it is such an issue of concern nationally as well as in the ACT, New South Wales is taking a lead on a lot of initiatives around attendance and trying to pull strategies together. So we are working quite closely with the New South Wales department of education and communities to access what they are doing as well as to feed some of our successful strategies into what they do.

With the legends program, we will be pursuing our discussions through the consultative group and also with the chamber of commerce. With the work that we have been doing with the chamber of commerce, there are a lot of plans underway. I am pretty sure that many of the elected body are aware of an expo that will be happening in March next year, a career expo for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, which will involve some of those sporting legends coming in. They want to have breakfast with numbers of our Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander students in high schools. So we will be making that happen.

MR JANKE: I have just had some meetings with the Raiders, who are keen to progress their contribution to the “learn earn legend!” program, to the extent where they have had visits to the North Queensland Cowboys to see how they implement their “learn earn legend!” program throughout the schools in Far North Queensland.

ATSIEB—13-12-11 20 Education and Training Directorate Mr Nean: We will definitely follow that up.

MR CHURCH: Can I ask one quick question? I do not expect a response right now. I was hoping that the body could get some information around the effectiveness of the on track program, the Birrigai boys program, which is funded through the Chief Minister’s community inclusion fund, focusing attention on school attendance, community engagement, parental engagement and social interaction with young people.

Dr Watterston: We have said to Rod that we are going to put a brief through around a number of things, so do you mind if we put that in the brief?

MR CHURCH: That is fine, thank you.

Dr Watterston: We will get you some up-to-date information around that.

THE CHAIR: Just one more to add to that brief. It picks up Ros’s point. Could the directorate consider scholarships for those high achievers or those in the middle road? When we look at the investment, we spend a lot of investment at the tail end, for those that are really struggling. It might mean that those in the middle of the road need a bit of a boost and, for those that are achieving really well—and we seem to forget about those—there is something there for them. Perhaps there could be a scholarship or something that transitions them into, say, a private school or a Catholic school to give them a whole new experience.

Dr Watterston: It is no better in a private or Catholic school. I am being a bit flippant but our education in the public system is fantastic for kids with high aspirations and high achievement levels. I am happy for them to go to any school if the experience, as you say, is different, but we can promote excellence within our own system.

THE CHAIR: I am glad you said that because I know that we have students on scholarships here under the Yalari program but we do not have any local scholarships for our young people that are doing really well. I would like to see some of our local people in the school that my daughter attends, Girls Grammar. But we have scholarships for kids way out in other places in the country. I will leave that one for you.

Dr Watterston: The new minister has certainly made that point to us. I did mention before that page 4 in the Australian today talks about achievement of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander students, mostly early childhood. It talks about the fact that, right across Australia, in all systems, independent, Catholic and government, there are lots of really high achieving Aboriginal students. And your point is a good one: we sometimes forget about that end. They are at the highest possible levels and we really need to continue to promote that.

THE CHAIR: Thank you very much. Sorry about your long wait, Adrian, but come on up. We will be short and sweet with this one, Adrian. I will start off with a question. In this current budget I think there is an allocation of some funds to transport Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander students, probably so that they get easier access to CIT. I believe that project is being undertaken through TAMS; is that correct?

ATSIEB—13-12-11 21 Education and Training Directorate Mr Marron: It is. I will just introduce Caroline Hughes and Nicole Stenlake, who may not be known to many of you. Caroline will pick that up in just a second, Rod, if that is okay. I just want to make a couple of introductory statements because there is something worth noting which I am sure you have noted anyway; that is, the increase in enrolments at CIT from 2010 to 2011. We have got a 38 per cent increase in enrolments, which is a really significant increase. That is more than 200 student enrolments. But more importantly, and the really good part of this story, is the increase in enrolments up the Australian qualification framework levels. So it is something like a 66 per cent increase in enrolments at certificate IV and above. That is a really good story because it has been hard to get.

I also want to point out two other things. One is that we had our first bachelor graduate, Indigenous graduate, this year, which was a really big thing for us. The other is that Caroline and the Yurauna Centre are turning into a bit of a cottage industry in terms of cultural awareness training around the place.

MS BROWN: And all this without a car! Imagine what you could do if you had a car. Jim was very strong earlier on about involving community in building relationships with families, if I may quote Jim’s words. So imagine the wonderful things you could do.

Mr Marron: Do you want to take the question about the—

Ms Hughes: On transport? Maurice Walker has been appointed to the position of coordinator of the transport scheme, which is looking at the whole of the ACT and working with community organisations as well. Kath Wallace, who is a well-known user of the public transport system in the Yurauna Centre, is sitting on the committee for that.

THE CHAIR: Good news. If we could get some details of your bachelor graduate, we would like to extend our congratulations and acknowledgement.

Ms Hughes: Yes. There has been a newspaper article just recently. Something went in the Koori Mail and we did put it across the ACT Indigenous network as well—Kerstin Styche.

THE CHAIR: That is great. They are the good news stories that we want to hear all the time. We want to promote that as well. You may have heard earlier my comment about transition. Some of the forums that I have been to at universities and so on have been about those transition points. The relationship, as Ros picked up, between an institution like yours and the community is very important. As I have said, the relationship between an institution and, say, the early childhood centre—the conversation starts there; I think I may have mentioned this to Jim at different times— is very important because that is the lifelong story for a young person from an infant to adulthood, so that there is this pathway in your life that you probably will take.

That leads me to the partnership relationships that you have. We know that you are entering into one or have already with UC. Is that sort of partnership model looking to extend the other way, perhaps to a high school, a college or a primary school?

Mr Marron: First of all let me say that our year has been dominated to a great degree by the current deliberations with the University of Canberra which are still ongoing ATSIEB—13-12-11 22 Education and Training Directorate and perhaps coming to fruition now. Part of our response in that whole process is to be putting ideas about the future. One of our big ideas about the future is a partnering model for the whole institution but certainly that includes all the constituent parts.

We do not have a relationship with schools that is quite like the University of Canberra’s with Lake Ginninderra or Kaleen. But we do have outreach into the schools and we do have a great deal of activity that brings us in to the schools. It is an area that we would like to place a greater degree of emphasise on. We do think that we are reasonably successful in bringing people through the pathways; hence we have had more than 200 extra people enrolled. Perhaps Caroline can say something specific about that.

Ms Hughes: We do encourage pathways. We have taken students out to the Ngunnawal centre at UC. We have also been out to the Tjabal centre, where they have been able to participate in lectures or actually sit in lectures and get an understanding of what is available. We do the same thing across CIT as well, to encourage the transitions from Yurauna Centre to foundation programs. And then, through our student support for people that are involved in mainstream programs—to encourage their progression on to university after CIT. And with the schools we work closely with Phill’s area and all the colleges, including Catholic education, to encourage participation at CIT as a pathway.

MS COLLINS: Is the 38 per cent increase in enrolments only for the Yurauna Centre or is it more spread across mainstream?

Ms Hughes: It is spread across mainstream.

MS COLLINS: As our Indigenous mob are going through?

Ms Hughes: Yes; it is spread across the mainstream.

THE CHAIR: The question that I have is this: what do you put the success of that down to? There are some lessons to be learnt here, and sharing that sort of information with the audience that we have today would be great. I think these guys have probably got similar stories.

Mr Marron: Caroline will talk more specifically, but I can say from my viewpoint what I think it is. You cannot underestimate the commitment of the people involved in our place—their network and reach into community and their ability to come up with solutions to sometimes intractable problems. One of the things that I would also like to put on the record for this year is the continual upgrading of qualifications that our staff from the Yurauna Centre do. It has been a red-letter year in that respect for us. This is really important because professionalism networks commitment and, hopefully, a bit of delegated responsibility and authority so that people feel free enough to come up with solutions as part of it.

In the end, though, the great thing about education is that the quality in education is all about the student experience. The students have to experience something. One of the things about the Yurauna Centre, and perhaps other areas of CIT, is that that experience is something that students feed into as well. It is an adult learning environment, so in some ways you get out of it what you put into it. It is proportionate to what you put into it. All of that is part of the mix. I think that we have come up ATSIEB—13-12-11 23 Education and Training Directorate with some ideas or some frameworks that make that happen so that people feel satisfied and they keep going, move up through the levels, bring other people in, et cetera.

MS BROWN: But there are transport issues, aren’t there? I am thinking of what I said earlier, using Jim’s words, about engagement with communities and families. I understand that the Yurauna Centre has to book the car and the car belongs to the whole of CIT. Is that it?

Mr Marron: All the cars belong to CIT.

MS BROWN: Yes. Yurauna said it used to have a work vehicle for better engagement with community. They are doing a fantastic job. I am on the Yurauna Centre advisory committee, as you know. What steps are being taken so that they can have a vehicle again? Then we can have even higher statistics next time we meet you.

Mr Marron: Is that a problem?

Ms Hughes: Staff access—there was a vehicle that was to have been returned to the lease pool. Based on the recommendations from last year’s estimates hearing, that vehicle was kept and is part of the CIT’s leasing pool.

MR HODGES: With the increase in the enrolments and where the Yurauna Centre itself has been placed at the back there, there was news about having to finally come out into the open. How does that transition happen?

MS BROWN: There are Aboriginal people in this country.

Ms Hughes: I have to acknowledge Nicole’s work. Staff and I have a meeting with our CIT planner tomorrow afternoon; we are looking at what our needs and our wants are and where we can be placed.

MS BROWN: I think it is great what you are doing. You are really leading the way. If you do go around every institution, you will see that the Aboriginal centres are at the back. That is great.

MR HODGES: So that is in process. And that will happen when?

Ms Hughes: We are in the process of looking at what we can do.

Mr Marron: It may be followed up with a budget for next year. There are resourcing issues. I just want to say that it is a live issue. After the first year of my honeymoon, which was a very short one, Caroline bugged me. Caroline did bug me with her staff, I do recall, towards the end of last year down at the Yurauna Centre. She said, “Come down for a morning tea just to say hello.” And they did. Then she said, “We need more space and whatnot.” So it has been a live issue.

The way that these things work is that we make the case, we do the costing, we do the business case and then we have got a budget. That process is part of what is happening with Doug Brooks, our planner. It has moved from something we would like to do to something that is now an active project.

ATSIEB—13-12-11 24 Education and Training Directorate Dr Stenlake: Another thing that we have done that has been very pleasing over the last 12 months is use technology to promote the work that the Yurauna Centre does. There is a really great 10-minute video that has quite a lot of the Yurauna staff speaking. That is really good, and that would be useful for the schools as well, because it is something that teachers can use to show people what is happening at CIT. Also, we have just put up on the website some profiles of the staff in the Yurauna Centre, emphasising the qualifications that they have got. So we have been quite active in using different media to promote the work of the Yurauna Centre.

MS BROWN: Yes, but also the people have to be visible in person, not just on video and on websites.

Dr Stenlake: I agree; yes.

MS BROWN: That is just part of it. We need to be seen as the original people of this country and we need to stop being hidden.

Dr Stenlake: I agree with you.

MS BROWN: Stop hiding us in major institutions and out the back.

Dr Stenlake: I agree with you.

MS BROWN: It is not fair, and it is against our very human rights to be hidden.

THE CHAIR: One of the things that you have touched on, Adrian, is this. In opening you may have heard me talk about this—some of the generic questions about the areas of policy and program development and budget bids. We have asked every directorate that comes through here to give us a heads up on what sorts of things you are proposing. As you will know, in our functions under the legislation, we are to develop and design programs. If we are involved in developing and designing the programs that are designed to impact on the people who we represent, we really want to be involved, and we need to be involved, in that so that we can go back to our community and say, “These things are happening.” So in terms of budget bids, and policy and program development, can you please ensure that we are given the heads up on those things so that we are aware of these things happening.

Mr Marron: Yes, certainly. Some of that is being formulated because part of the uncertainty about the collaborative framework moving forward with the university still gets in the way of that. But there are a couple of things. One is that with the Yurauna Centre this kind of growth really is a trigger that says, “Right; we need to do something.” That is likely to be one.

One of the other areas that we have discussed, though not in any specifics, is this. There is often in our relationship with other public institutions in the ACT, whether it is justice or whatever, a lack of clarity about expectations in terms of what can happen.

One of the conversations we had a few days ago was around seeking some quality clarity about some of those things. It is no longer helpful to have expectations in the breach, as it were, that are cloudy in terms of resourcing. You end up with a good idea that does not get followed through because everybody has made a different ATSIEB—13-12-11 25 Education and Training Directorate assumption or no assumption at all. We are going to do some work on that; that might then strengthen some of the relationships we have with the justice system and the youth system as well.

THE CHAIR: Part of the reason why I asked the question is that, as you may have heard me say, we use the justice agreement as the foundation. That cuts across all organisations, all directorates. One of the things that we mentioned with Treasury yesterday was that there is one question even at Treasury level or for the Chief Minister’s department in policy development: what are the views of the elected body when your proposal is going forward? That might give some more substance to your proposals.

Mr Marron: Indeed it would.

THE CHAIR: The link that you have just mentioned is that when we look at the justice agreement, and we have got justice coming up later on today after lunch, I think, we want to make the links: we have got this program, we have got an increase in Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people going through the system and we have got good student outcomes coming through the schooling system, so why have got these other problems? We are still seeing terrible statistics in justice. With what is on offer at your institution and what is on offer in education, the transition and the pathways—should it be going into the justice system?

Mr Marron: That is right.

THE CHAIR: That is what we want. Our responsibility under the legislation is to be helped to design those things and add value to your budget submissions. So we would really appreciate that. I do not think it is an unreasonable expectation.

Mr Marron: No.

THE CHAIR: I think we can do that, work together.

Mr Marron: We can certainly have that to you.

MS COLLINS: Can I just make a comment?

THE CHAIR: Yes.

MS COLLINS: The productivity places program that CIT does with the commonwealth government is a really good opportunity for our public service staff to get some qualifications at a higher level than they already had. That is a fantastic program. I imagine that some of that 38 per cent is those sorts of people. Is there something similar within ACT government where public service employees can do that same sort of thing?

Ms Hughes: They can still access the PPP.

MS COLLINS: So it is no cost to the agency and they can get some formal qualifications?

Ms Hughes: There is about a $400 cost to the agency under the PPP. The beauty of ATSIEB—13-12-11 26 Education and Training Directorate the PPP is that it is open to everybody. There are some places that Aboriginal people did access, but not many. CIT still offers the CIT Indigenous scholarships where the program fee is covered in CIT’s own funds. That in itself has, I believe, over the years, established why there has been such an increase as well. We have run specific programs in relation to the APSE trainees and the ACT government trainees. That is reflected in those figures as well. With the scholarships, recognition fees are also covered in that—people who have work skills or life skills experience. We have been really pushing that recognition and the opportunity to gain a qualification.

MS COLLINS: It is important that that pathway is there for our trainees, in both the commonwealth and ACT public service, and also those who have been working and want to get some form of qualification to have the experiences that they have. I think you guys do that really well.

Ms Hughes: That is right, yes.

MS BROWN: Can we have a bit of a briefing about the merger? Is that still going ahead between CIT and the University of Canberra? And what impact is it going to have on Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people?

THE CHAIR: Can we include that in the—

Mr Marron: I am waiting to hear the answer.

THE CHAIR: Will there be a joint briefing?

Mr Marron: It is just that Jim is one of the eminent persons on the steering group that is reporting to cabinet today or tomorrow.

THE CHAIR: It would be good if you could take that on and provide us with a briefing.

Mr Marron: I can probably give you a fuller answer after the cabinet meeting, because it is in the cabinet process.

THE CHAIR: That would be good. Thank you. We have got a couple more.

MR HODGES: A lot of the other directorates participate in the traineeship program. Everyone goes to CIT to be trained, but does CIT participate in the traineeship program?

Ms Hughes: Last year we did. We had a young fellow and he was given a promotional opportunity in the APSE. We did not have any positions available this year, but we will certainly be doing it next year.

Mr Marron: We are looking for one at the moment.

MR HODGES: So they participated in the program. You said that the one you had went to APSE. Is there any progression in CIT where they could go?

Ms Hughes: Yes. This young fellow was in our financial area. They found that he was excellent and very open to having more people on board. One of the trainees was ATSIEB—13-12-11 27 Education and Training Directorate not happy with the placement this year; we did look at them transferring into the Yurauna Centre, but things turned around in the workplace with some mentoring. I would like to mention some of the programs that we have got. We have been working in partnership with Habitat and the chamber of commerce for next year.

THE CHAIR: Just before you do, I think John Paul has a question.

MR JANKE: I want to make a couple of comments and then I have one question. Congratulations on your increase. I think it is a significant increase and it is worth while officially noting that a lot of us are appreciative of the work you do there. I know, through work and at a professional level, some of the students who go to the CIT and they enjoy their participation in the CIT. Congratulations.

In terms, then, of the role that they can play in mentoring other kids within the ACT school system—a lot of those people are local people and a lot of those people have families and kids and have an association with the local network—do you look at offering mentoring to the ACT schools system? I think we heard from the previous directorate that they provide a regular update through an email about the resources available for Indigenous curriculum.

Obviously one of the roles could be for these students to be examples or leaders or mentors to kids coming through the education system. I know you might not be able to do it under your current resources but have you looked at approaching the ACT government or the federal government in terms of providing money to do that? The federal government is providing, say, $20 million to the NRL for sports stars to do that program. Sadly not everyone is going to be a successful rugby league player or make a million dollars out of football. People can aspire to get cert IIIs and cert IVs and other qualifications.

Mr Marron: And diplomas and that and whatnot.

MR JANKE: Is it something that you guys have looked at?

Ms Hughes: Can I answer?

Mr Marron: You speak first and then I will answer.

Ms Hughes: Ironically, yesterday Yuruana had a planning day and what came out of that is that we are looking at volunteers to work with particular students in the centre but also in mainstream. So we are developing a policy around that, and a lot of work has already gone into it. But also the ACT government has, I think only about three weeks ago, launched a new mentoring agency here in the ACT. And we are looking at linking with them and what they can do for our particular students. But we are very keen on the idea of successful students that have of course gone through the police check are able to work with colleges and schools.

MR JANKE: Knowing some of the students who go to the school, I think that their going out to schools would be fantastic professional development for those individuals.

Mr Marron: I think that is a really good idea. One of the things that are in the draft RAP is getting Indigenous and non-Indigenous staff and the students, particularly in ATSIEB—13-12-11 28 Education and Training Directorate NAIDOC Week but at other times, as one step, out into schools and find mechanisms to do that. I think that is something we ought to take back and put in the RAP.

THE CHAIR: Thank you very much, everyone. Caroline, if you want you could probably add some of those highlights in the briefing paper, if you would not mind. I know you cover off some in the annual report but it is good to get it in a different format.

Meeting adjourned from 11.07 to 11.21 am.

ATSIEB—13-12-11 29 Education and Training Directorate Economic Development Directorate Dawes, Mr David, Director-General Hudson, Ms Cathy, Deputy Director-General, Economic Development, Policy and Governance O’Leary, Mr Shane, Executive Director, Tourism, Events and Sport Reynolds, Mr Chris, Executive Director, Land Development

THE CHAIR: David, Cathy and the other guys, thank you very much for coming along. It is good to see you again. I saw you last week. We will kick off with some of these broad questions. Thank you for your time last week and the invitation to come along to your meeting. It was terrific, wasn’t it, Benny? Benny and I went along to a directorate sort of meeting last week, members, and got some good feedback, and we actually got a list of contacts. I do not know what I have done with mine now. I have got one here. We have asked the directorate to provide us with that, and they were very happy and responded really well. Thank you for that.

Mr Dawes: As I said to you the other day, we will invite you and Benny along. Benny has got portfolio responsibility and we will get Benny along every couple of months to go through a bit of an update, because I think it is important that we have probably more regular dialogue rather than just waiting once a year.

THE CHAIR: And that gives us a bit of a snapshot about what is in the directorate. It is very useful for us. What I will do, David, for the benefit of members, is get you to do a little overview, but I just want to let you know that we will have some generic questions about, particularly, events and activities that your directorate may be involved in so that we are kept up to speed with them or we know what is happening in your space in town. That would be appreciated.

Another matter is the ACT employment strategy for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, which you know very well, Cathy. How many employment opportunities are there across your directorate and just the progress of trainees and employees within your directorate? The third is—and they do not need to be answered today, but you could let us know at some point—the progress that demonstrates change in the workplace since the implementation of the respect, equity and diversity plan. The fourth one is around policies and programs and budget bids that have that single question about the views of the elected body when you are developing those types of activities.

So I will hand over to you and you can give us a bit of an overview of your directorate, for the benefit of all members.

Mr Dawes: I will just give you a rundown. Obviously since 17 May, when there were structural changes done to the ACT public service and then one service was created— and part of the Hawke recommendations was that an economic development directorate be established—the Economic Development Directorate has probably been one of the most effective directorates, because we have actually brought together a lot of different business units from a number of different department areas. And what Cathy and I have been doing is working to establish it as quickly as possible, because obviously when you go through quite a massive change in bringing together a whole lot of different business units, you want to try to create some stability as quickly as

ATSIEB—13-12-11 30 Economic Development Directorate possible.

On two fronts, I think it provides certainty for the people working in those areas but also it is able to provide quality advice back to government. And one of the key things I am always very conscious about is the fact that the community pays, and we are here to serve government and the community as well.

We have divided the Economic Development Directorate into three streams. In one stream we have sport and recreation, tourism, territory venues and events, and we have portfolio responsibility for EPIC. That makes up one division. I have Shane, who heads up that directorate, here and he will be able to give you a bit of insight into what that division is doing.

Then we have Cathy Hudson, who has now been appointed the Deputy Director- General of the Economic Development Directorate. Her responsibilities are business and industry development, policy and governance area and the human resources area within the directorate and she has responsibility for the media and communications area of the directorate. Then we have gambling and racing, which we have portfolio responsibility for. That sits in underneath that division.

Then we have the land part of the division, which incorporates the LDA. I wear two hats. I wear the hats of Director-General of the Economic Development Directorate and Chief Executive Officer of the LDA. What we have done there is combine a lot of the functions from the old department I used to head up, Land and Property Services, into that middle area of the directorate. We deliver a lot of capital works for the broader Economic Development Directorate. The LDA has quite a large capital works program in developing the land, and we have the direct sales and land strategy, where we look at predicting what the land release program will be on a four-year budget cycle and so forth in that central area.

Some of the key things that we have done include my having centralised a couple of the functions of the directorate, because I think it is very important that we combine and have a thread running around and wrapping around all sections of the directorate. In the policy space, which is under Cathy, we have centralised the policy arm of the directorate into that area there, which will then be the thread that combines the whole of the directorate so that the policy grunt can come from that part of the directorate. In the centre, or what I call the centre, in the land space, we have centralised the accounting function for the whole of the directorate, and that will be the other thread as well.

Ensuring that we have got maximum communications and integration and that across the directorate, I think, is very important to create that team experience. And then each of the various divisions is going through a restructure as part of the restructure under the Hawke review. We have duplication in some areas as well, and we are actually in the process of rationalising that and making sure that people are not displaced but are placed in other opportunities or placed across other parts of the ACT public service. That is probably it in a nutshell.

We have gone out and advertised a couple of what we call the SES level positions, to make sure we have got a solid team, and we are moving to 2012 as, hopefully, a

ATSIEB—13-12-11 31 Economic Development Directorate complete package, because most of that recruitment is just about finalised or will be finalised before Christmas. There has been quite a lot of movement, really when you think about it, in six months to get to where we are. I thought it was important to get that bedded down so that we can launch into 2012. That is it in a nutshell.

I can hand out a couple of things that we can talk about. I think we have provided you already with a copy of our executive and our contact list, and we will, as I mentioned earlier, ensure that Benny in particular, being the portfolio director, will be open to you, Rod, as the chair of the elected body, and attend our meetings and he can give updates throughout the year. As we develop some of our other policies and other frameworks and as we look at developing some of our other areas around contracting, there needs to be input from the elected body.

I have a handout here that might be of interest to you, a copy of the respect, equity and diversity framework. We thought that we would share that with you. I can walk you through a little on that and Cathy can chime in and fill in some of the blanks there. But I thought that was probably something that could be of interest to you. It includes some of the work and some of the things that we have put in place and will be monitoring. When Benny comes along to the meetings, we can actually provide further updates.

If you look at the first one, overall diversity indicators, the target is two per cent. Currently, we are sitting at 1.6 per cent. Obviously, I have, and I know the team in general have, a strong desire and commitment to employment opportunities for the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. With retention indicators, while we do not have employees that have separated from the directorate during the period, ED will continue to monitor the performance in this area. I think that is important.

The same thing applies to learning and development career plans for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander employees. ED is currently developing performance framework and management plans for all employees. We rolled out this process to staff. It incorporates all employees, including people with a disability and Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander employees. It should be noted that all participants in both the ATSIE and people with disability traineeships developed a learning and career development plan as a component of their traineeship. We do have some disabled young people working in the directorate. I think it is important to provide opportunities for them.

Ms Hudson: I might just say on that one that we have put out a framework for everyone but with the restructure, it became a bit muddled up about who exactly would be doing what. So we have said the business plans and then the learning and development plans that fall out of that need to happen in the new year, because we had too many questions we could not answer. “Am I going to be doing exactly this or am I going to be doing a different job?” That is why we have not done that as yet. The intention is to do it by the end of January, but I think it is going to be more likely in February.

MS BROWN: Do you have a reconciliation action plan? Other directorates have been working with Reconciliation Australia.

ATSIEB—13-12-11 32 Economic Development Directorate Mr Dawes: No, we have not, and as well—

MS BROWN: I am sure the elected body would be happy to participate.

THE CHAIR: Would you add that to this list of things?

Mr Dawes: Yes, absolutely, not a problem.

THE CHAIR: Because you are relatively new under this new restructure, I can understand that.

Mr Dawes: But I think it is important that we cover all of those bases as well so that it is not a—

MR CHURCH: I have got a quick question. You could probably answer it, Dave. Is the Aboriginal sport and recreation position still funded through the directorate?

Mr Dawes: Yes. Shane, did you want to just roll it out?

Mr O’Leary: Yes. That position has recently been filled, after some significant period of being—

THE CHAIR: Excuse me, Shane, could you come up to the table.

MS BROWN: We need you to speak into the microphone.

Mr O’Leary: Sure, no worries.

THE CHAIR: It gets recorded by Hansard.

Mr O’Leary: Yes, no worries. I was just saying that that position has recently been filled, after quite a period of it being vacant. It covers a number of our inclusive participation programs that are funded through the Australian government from the Australian Sports Commission. So it covers not only the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander aspects of participation in sport but also disabilities, ageing people, junior sport and the like.

MS COLLINS: Is it filled by an Indigenous person?

Mr O’Leary: I do not believe it is, no.

Ms Hudson: No. I actually did ask for follow-up on that the other day. We tried to fill it. That was what I was told by the director of sport and recreation. That was part of why it was not filled for a period of time. We were not able to find someone.

Mr O’Leary: Yes, for non-Indigenous persons.

Ms Hudson: Yes. They are working on one of the issues that were raised the other day about Boomanulla oval. They are involved with that and will be working, I understand, with EA as well as the other body.

ATSIEB—13-12-11 33 Economic Development Directorate MR CHURCH: I think it would be worth while getting some information around the scope of that position so that we can disseminate it to the community, especially if it is not just covering Indigenous sport. Now that it is disability and whatnot, it would be good to know.

Mr O’Leary: Sure.

Mr Dawes: We can certainly take that on board and provide that information.

MS COLLINS: I have a question about the number of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders employed outside the act in terms of contract arrangements. Under the commonwealth procurement guidelines there is an Indigenous opportunities policy. How do you incorporate that? On the first page at the bottom, the contract arrangements, you have got no-one listed there at the moment. The commonwealth have moved to this Indigenous opportunities policy where they direct source Indigenous businesses and provide opportunities for them. Is there a way that the work that you do can provide for that or encourage other directorates to do so?

Ms Hudson: We probably need to do it with procurement.

Mr Dawes: There are a couple of options there. We have had some discussion as a directorate because of the capital works that we deliver. One of the things under procurement is that there should be a proportion of apprentices and trainees on our capital works sites as well.

MS COLLINS: Considering the ASPA numbers are fairly high and increase significantly through various fields—the master builders pioneer it—it is a good chance for you guys to utilise that.

Mr Dawes: Exactly, and we are looking at how we enforce that. I was at the master builders, who set up a lot of those programs, so I have a close affinity with that. We will be working with not only the MBA but also the HIA and CITEA to make sure that we implement that. We have been talking with the training industry. Under the building the nation packages that the commonwealth put out and under the coordinator-general role they insisted on a number of apprentices and also a number of Indigenous apprentices and trainees being involved in that program. Vince conducted site audits and we have been talking to him about how we can incorporate that function as well in the broader directorate. That is the path we are moving down.

MS BROWN: Will your directorate be just employing trainees? Will you be opening up specific Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander positions at higher levels?

Mr Dawes: Yes. We will be looking at it right across the board. I was just addressing one issue around the capital works where there is an opportunity for apprentices and trainees to be involved at those early stages as well. Where we can, we will certainly be encouraging people to apply and we will work with them.

MS BROWN: I think it would be a great incentive for trainees to know that there are Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander people at higher levels and they are not all

ATSIEB—13-12-11 34 Economic Development Directorate just trainees.

Mr Dawes: In creating the directorate I am aware that the future is in the younger generations in the broader directorate. They are going to be the leaders of tomorrow. I have made a very conscious decision to make sure that we get a range of different skills and ages involved in some of the senior positions as well.

MS BROWN: Yes, a range of ages as well.

Mr Dawes: You can have some succession planning as well. I am very much for trainees and university graduates. It is a mix of a number of different ways that we can get people in and give them a career path in the organisation.

MS COLLINS: And cadets.

Mr Dawes: Cadets as well.

MS BROWN: I am not saying “or”; I am saying “and”. So you are not just concentrating on trainees. There are very intelligent people that have skills in economic development—Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders—so it is not “or”. It is trainees and the people that have the skills now.

Mr Dawes: Yes.

Ms Hudson: Can I just mention that EDD committed to four graduates for 2012. We said that we would like one of those to be an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander, but we were not successful in getting that. I am not sure if you have had the Chief Minister’s—

MS COLLINS: Did you go through APSC for that?

Ms Hudson: I think Chief Minister’s coordinate the graduate program. If you have not had them already, ask about that, because it would be a good thing. I just think that through those processes we could have more links in terms of making sure that we inform people in their communities when the applications are happening.

THE CHAIR: We should have had the previous group sitting here and listening to what you have just described. That was education and CIT. We were talking about transitioning people through a system—getting the necessary skills and qualifications to decide on the pathway that they want to go down. You are talking about graduates. Whether they get the qualifications either at CIT or in years 11 and 12, it is about knowing that these options are out there. If those guys who are in our education and CIT systems now know that then we can start having the conversation with those students or those young people at a very early stage. We can say, “These things are out there.”

Ms Hudson: I know Terry Williams said that out at UC for university graduates we should have been having linkages.

MR HODGES: We mentioned to the previous directorate scholarships and things like

ATSIEB—13-12-11 35 Economic Development Directorate that. Whilst they are going from year 11 to 12 something that we might look at down the track is directorates considering offering scholarships so that there is a pathway for them to progress right through and then perhaps take on all those senior executive positions when they come out or are in the process of doing it.

THE CHAIR: Also school-based traineeships.

MR HODGES: Yes.

THE CHAIR: It gives young people a taste while they are still in school that those are the options out there.

Mr Dawes: It probably goes back to a point Brendan made about some of the jobs that we have coming up. If, for example, they are circulated amongst the elected body, with Benny being the portfolio representative, as you come along to some of the meetings we can raise some of those things and in between meetings we could get that information out so you can broadcast that more to the broader group.

MS BROWN: We have been talking with the Treasury and the Chief Minister’s directorates about the cultural centre, how it needs more support and how we can generate more tourism in the ACT with authentic-made didgeridoos and boomerangs and different Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander stuff that they make. We really need support with that. It is just a shell out there, really. It is only used for some workshops now and again. We need to have more community engagement there.

We spoke about bringing the community together more, not just in NAIDOC week. I think it would be really good for reconciliation amongst our people, especially Ngunnawal people—but that is another story—to promote Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander culture and values. We really need support with that. I was at the commonwealth department of immigration and I was speaking to a few people from overseas—and I have actually told the other directorates this—and they are sick of buying didgeridoos and boomerangs made in China. They are not the real thing and they are not the real authenticity of culture. Do you see a way of supporting us with that?

Mr Dawes: We can certainly explore that. Obviously we have tourism and as well there is the tourist information centre on Northbourne Avenue. That is something that we can certainly take up. We will look at how we can promote that. Maybe we could even have some things on display there or whatever. We will certainly have a look at what we can do and take that on board. Shane is executive director of that division. We can certainly take it up.

MS BROWN: They have an art gallery there where people can go and paint. They can do their paintings and stuff like that.

Mr Dawes: We had a bit of a brainstorm when Rod and Benny were there the other day. I know Neale Guthrie looked at a couple of other opportunities that we might be able to do with some of our venues and events areas as well. If we had that sort of interaction on a regular basis it would actually create some other opportunities.

ATSIEB—13-12-11 36 Economic Development Directorate MR HODGES: I put some questions to the directorate when Rod and I attended, particularly about visiting the ACT. For anybody visiting the ACT, when they jump off the plane or off the bus, there is nothing there that tells them that this is Aboriginal country, the land of the Ngunnawals. There might be a sign—

MS BROWN: We would like to see that definitely for the tourists.

MR HODGES: I suggested, and we spoke about it, that when we continue our dialogue and our meetings together, particularly looking at the centenary in 2013, we have something significant happening in the ACT.

MS BROWN: So you would be looking into something that Benny is advising?

Mr Dawes: Yes. I think that was taken on board. Neale Guthrie, who is the executive director of Territory Venues and Events, looked at how we can even display some things up on our signs at some of the Raiders and Brumbies games. A lot of that was taken on board. He came up with three issues that we could probably look at implementing straightaway.

MS BROWN: It would be great for overseas guests to see that mainstream Australia actually does respect the original people of this country and makes them go “wow”.

MR CHURCH: Does your directorate provide any support to individuals or organisations that are looking at undertaking social enterprise initiatives?

Mr Dawes: That is actually another thing that I spoke to Benny about the other day. I have offered to establish some links back to the Canberra Business Council. I have Ian Cox here, who heads up business and industry development, because we thought this might come up in conversation. We fund BusinessPoint, which is run out of the Canberra Business Council. They provide advice to new companies starting up and companies that are established. There is a mentoring program. There are networking opportunities and so on. We are more than happy to have that discussion with BusinessPoint to ensure that service is made available to the broader community.

MR CHURCH: I guess it has got two prongs. It has got the obvious employment side of things from the community perspective, but then there is also a capacity for you guys to engage Aboriginal staff at a decent level to provide that support to any new staff.

Mr Dawes: We thought that was important. I think that came out of some general conversation we had the other day when Rod and Benny attended the meeting. Those are the sorts of things that we are more than happy to do. I think it is important that we follow through as well. We now need to follow that and set up the meetings which will get underway in the new year. We need to establish those links as well. I think that is important.

THE CHAIR: Has the directorate established the cultural and heritage services panel?

Mr Dawes: No, we have not. That is in train. There are a couple of things that we do,

ATSIEB—13-12-11 37 Economic Development Directorate though, Rod—and I think we touched on this the other day—especially through our land development site. We do work with the community. I think we gave an example of what we are doing with artwork and in Gungahlin as well, where there has been interaction with the Indigenous community. We are creating some artworks and a walk and that will be finalised in February. If the elected body want to hear a little more about that, I have brought Chris along to talk about that as well. We are doing things, even though there has not been a policy set down. As we are developing the new directorate we have a number of things in train.

THE CHAIR: Just on the government’s response to our report, recommendation 25 was about the establishment of a culture and heritage services panel. If we could expect to get a briefing, that would be great. That is one of the things that was said would be established, so an update on progress in a briefing would be really good.

Mr Dawes: No problem.

Ms Hudson: I would just like to go back to the employment issues. What we are going through with the restructuring at the moment is actually about a reduction in the staff of about eight per cent across the directorate, which is bigger than any others, I think. Our chances for perhaps doing Indigenous specific are more likely to be in the second half of next year. We have responsibilities under the enterprise agreement and so on in terms of current people that we have. For some of those current people there will not be jobs in the directorate, so they may go on to re-employment. I just think we need to be mindful of that. David has said he definitely wants to have trainees and he did want to get the graduate. It is more likely that when people leave, when there is natural—

THE CHAIR: Attrition?

Ms Hudson: Yes. When people leave from, say, March onwards, that might be when we get more opportunities to say we could do specific work. I just wanted to clarify that.

THE CHAIR: All right. Can I reiterate the point I made in the opening remarks about ensuring that the elected body’s view is incorporated in your communications to ministers et cetera. I think it is important. We mentioned this to the Chief Minister’s department and all other directorates, but particularly Treasury—that eventually when the budget starts to come down they establish some sort of criteria that asks: what is the elected body’s view on this? Then there is a sense of importance from the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander community on the activities that directorates do. We have highlighted the importance of some of these things to you and we understand that during the budget process, particularly during an election year, it is one of those things that are going to be important.

Mr Dawes: No worries. I think we touched on the fact that one of the things that we are in the process of doing—and I think this will be raised at one of the first meetings that we have with Benny in the new year—is developing a new industry strategy. We are very dependent on land sales. How do we broaden the revenue base of the income of the territory? We have to look at what we can do with businesses: how do we grow them? There are a number of key things that we can actually leverage off and build

ATSIEB—13-12-11 38 Economic Development Directorate on. We have developed a business paper—it is a strategy paper—which will be going out to the broader community to be discussed. We will be holding roundtables and symposiums next year. To me, that was one of the key things that I thought would be raised when we have our meeting with Benny. As I said, Rod—others are welcome to come as well—come along. I thought that we should look at where and how you can actually fit into that process, which I think is important.

There are a couple of other strategy papers that we are developing as well. I think that by my attending some of those meetings every couple of months we can actually be flagging these things ahead of time so you are not fighting a rearguard action when papers are being developed; you are very much involved in the early days of something being formulated.

Ms Hudson: Some of that, particularly the industry one, will lead into budget deliberations as well. That is a good one too.

Mr Dawes: To be involved with, yes.

THE CHAIR: Yes. Going back to the report from government, that recommendation 27 was about the directorates nominating a key senior executive for us to have regular contact with. That will be Cathy.

Mr Dawes: That will be Cathy, yes.

MS COLLINS: I would like to ask about the cultural awareness program that you were saying is being provided to all staff. How long was it, who runs it and do you see that that could be something ongoing or is it just a one off?

Mr Dawes: It is not a one-off; it will be an ongoing process. That is being delivered by our human resources area. Joanne Rosewarne has been delivering that, and part of her team, and it will be ongoing. It has probably been particularly important as we have established in the new directorate that communication is the key to anything. I not believe in doing a once-off. It will be—

MS COLLINS: So HR have developed and delivered that?

Mr Dawes: They have, yes.

MS COLLINS: It is not an Indigenous person?

Mr Dawes: That I would have to take on notice.

Ms Hudson: I will find out more about that.

Mr Dawes: We can give you some advice on that as well; it has been developed by our HR area.

MS COLLINS: Do you see it as important that it be developed and delivered by an Indigenous person or business?

ATSIEB—13-12-11 39 Economic Development Directorate Mr Dawes: I think so, yes. I think it is crucial, that involvement. Obviously, as we have been doing some of these things as well, because we have been only six months in the making, we have covered a lot of territory. It is a matter of lining all of that up, and that to me is key.

Ms Hudson: The other thing that we have been doing particularly in the last six months, or the last three really, is the training around respect, equity and diversity. That has been from David asking that every single executive and senior manager have 100 per cent coverage on that so that we are respectful, particularly to all employees and all those that we engage with. I think we were aiming for 100 per cent by Christmas and I think we are on target to do that. That is the one I know a little bit more about but I will follow up with that. I think the other one might have started off in LAPS—

Mr Dawes: Yes, it had started in LAPS.

Ms Hudson: I will get more on that.

MS GOODWIN: I have got a question. The elected body are looking at an aged-care facility. Dianne and I went up to Booroongen Djugun aged-care facility and Ken—I am not sure of Ken’s last name—

MS BROWN: Williams.

MS GOODWIN: Ken Williams. We are looking at the possibility of land. We talked to Treasury about the possibility of putting in bids for funding an aged-care facility.

MS BROWN: Aged and disability.

MS GOODWIN: Yes. I was wondering what the possibility is of this land, because there is land zoned. Is there a possibility that we could get some land?

Mr Dawes: Anything is possible. One of the things that we are responsible for is the direct sales program. We work with different communities as well to look at how they can be accommodated, whether it is land or even a tenancy or whatever the case may be. But we are more than happy if, for example, you want to have a chat to us or we can put you in touch with our direct sales team. We assist people in filling in the forms and getting all of that together.

When I joined government there were a number of outstanding direct sales, and when you really went back and examined some of those direct sales that may have been given they were not in a financial position to do any of the development. Indigenous land is finite as well these days. So what we now do is work with the groups that are making those direct sales and if, for example, they have not got that financial capacity we might point them in the right direction to develop some of those business plans and do all of those sorts of things that they need to do and then at the appropriate time lodge the sale.

There are some key things under the direct sales that we have to address. There has got to be a community benefit and all of that, which you would be well aware of. We

ATSIEB—13-12-11 40 Economic Development Directorate are more than happy to look at how we can do that and then obviously, depending on the nature of the activity that you are going to conduct, there is a value put on that land and we go from there. We are more than happy to walk you through that process.

MS GOODWIN: Okay. Thank you.

THE CHAIR: You may have mentioned this, David, but just a little bit around that stream, land strategy and finance; what is that? Did you touch on that earlier?

Mr Dawes: It is part and parcel of the—

Mr Reynolds: That is where the accounting—

Mr Dawes: That is right, as well, but also that is where we develop the land release program for the next four years, where that sits and is released as part of the budget. One of the key things that we are trying to do there is get ahead of the game. Obviously the government’s policy to do 50 per cent infill and 50 per cent in the green fields over time is how we engage with the communities much earlier than waiting until the year that we are going to deliver the program, so we can deliver the land with some certainty. We are certainly doing a lot of that. That function is all carried out in that area.

We meet with a lot of the different organisations and groups and gather the intelligence which then informs our program. Obviously we have got to try and ensure that we do not undersupply, but also we do not want to go to the other extreme and have a maximum oversupply either. We can keep you informed, because that is part and parcel of what will be on our executive agenda when we meet. We can talk a bit about that as well, so at least you will know what land is coming up and what is available.

You mentioned aged care. We have the residential land supply; the commercial, the industrial, and then community and aged care land are what we are trying to develop an inventory of as well so that we can respond. If you look at the demographic of what is happening here in the ACT, we need to make sure we are on top of our game in that area as well.

THE CHAIR: Yesterday we spoke with Environment and Sustainability. We are very interested in sustainability in all forms and we talked about heritage, heritage listing and recent events about heritage listing of pretty much the Canberra region. We would like to have some more conversations and be informed about what that means for us as Canberrans as well, and about some of those heritage listings, culturally significant sites or whatever; for example, and I know this might be out of your jurisdiction, the tent embassy but also other areas in the ACT jurisdiction that are of significant cultural heritage importance.

Mr Dawes: We can certainly take that on board. Obviously if we have those discussions around our land release program we identify some of those constraints and opportunities. They are not always constraints either; there are opportunities as well. I am more than happy to have that discussion and that will give you a bit of an idea of what we are doing.

ATSIEB—13-12-11 41 Economic Development Directorate I do know that when we take land to the market a number of things need to be done. There are environmental clearances but also we do ensure that we engage Indigenous groups. We conduct surveys and studies of the sites that we are taking to the market, as you know. Even when we sell an englobo parcel of land to the developers we encourage them to ensure that those sorts of things are done.

We have a number of groups that actually go out and pore over the sites to make sure that there is nothing there of significance that we are going to build over. If, for example, something is discovered, obviously they are immediately asked to come back on site and carry out an investigation. Quite often we might fence that area while it is being further investigated and we get on with some of the other areas.

THE CHAIR: I do not know whether it happens here, but I know in my own country, in the west and other places where there are heritage survey programs happening under the heritage legislation and so on where developments are happening, that survey involves Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island people either by the developers or the government that sell off that land. There is participation by Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples in a survey program. We can try to ensure that developers are compliant with that. In some way we hope to get that enforced because at the moment we either do or we do not, from my limited knowledge about developers’ compliance and requirements.

Mr Dawes: What I might do is ask Chris Reynolds to give you some definitive answers on that because it is his area of domain. But I know that we do engage Indigenous and Torres Strait Islander peoples to conduct those surveys.

THE CHAIR: Is that a formalised process?

Mr Dawes: It is a formalised process.

THE CHAIR: Okay.

Mr Dawes: Chris, did you want to elaborate?

Mr Reynolds: Yes. What happens in the ACT is that, before any developers, and even the LDA as a developer, can touch anything on the site, there are a couple of layers of approval. In the ACT the first statutory or layer of approval is done by the planning department and it is what we call the rezoning. You might have heard them talk about a variation to the territory plan. In summary, what that does is allow a change in use on the land through the legislative framework, so it might be grazing country at present and no developments allowed because it is not zoned appropriately.

Typically in the ACT the planning department would consider the broader growth opportunities for Canberra and identify a future growth corridor. They would look at lands that are not developed at the moment—in theory, rural properties—and they would instigate a whole range of studies to identify whether or not it could be rezoned for development. A key part of those studies are what are called cultural and heritage significance studies. So they would engage consultants and typically those consultants would then work with RAOs on the area to identify any areas of potential

ATSIEB—13-12-11 42 Economic Development Directorate significance. They would normally do a range of studies on the site, investigative work, and they usually adopt a precautionary approach, which means that even if they are in doubt they will identify a spot and say, “We are not 100 per cent sure, but that is an area where further work might need to be undertaken.”

THE CHAIR: So that process of rezoning would have happened with the healing farm—is that right?—because the healing farm is in a rural area?

Mr Reynolds: I am not familiar with the healing—

MS BROWN: The Ngunnawal bush healing farm. Have you heard of that?

Mr Reynolds: Not referred to it as the healing farm but—

MS BROWN: What did you hear it referred to as?

Mr Reynolds: Sorry. I am just familiar with the ones, for example, in Crace. I am familiar with the suburb names.

MS BROWN: Okay.

Mr Reynolds: They are already rezoned by the time they come to me and they are named a suburb.

THE CHAIR: No. This one was back some time ago. I think the rezoning of a rural area would have been—

Mr Reynolds: Okay. I have been five or six years in Canberra. What I am trying to lead to is that a range of studies are undertaken from the first move in terms of potential rezoning. There are reports prepared and then they identify what they call PADs within a particular area that need further work or need to be protected—no disturbance at all. That gets well documented and embodied in what is called a deed of agreement for private developers.

Typically those requirements are a range of things—that you do not touch; you do not even go anywhere near this site; it is what is referred to as a scarred tree or it must be protected; or there might be other areas where all they have found is a little bit of information and they just say that further work needs to be undertaken and you will need to get another approval before you do anything further. So there is a pretty robust system in ensuring that it is appropriately investigated and protected through the system.

MS BROWN: But it is not inclusive because the RAAs are individual groups that are not consulting with their own United Ngunnawal Elders Council. The United Ngunnawal Elders Council needs to be involved—

Mr Reynolds: In those processes.

MS BROWN: Yes. I am also chairperson of the United Ngunnawal Elders Council and these RAA groups are actually on the elders council but they are not providing

ATSIEB—13-12-11 43 Economic Development Directorate feedback to us. So we need support with the elders council also being consulted.

Mr Reynolds: Off the top of my head I can think of a very easy mechanism to do that and that would be for the planning authority, when it has its brief that goes to its consultant to do that initial study, to have a requirement that it seek comment and advice from the council. For me it seems like a very quick and immediate thing that could be accommodated without too much issue.

Mr Dawes: We will take that up with the ESDD.

MS BROWN: Thank you very much.

THE CHAIR: I was just checking my calendar because there was something similar for rezoning in north Belconnen where the owner had part of his rural property sort of moved over across the border. I think part of it he wants to develop for residential or high density sort of living and the retention of some natural reserve, turning that farm then into natural reserve. I cannot remember what it was—

Mr Reynolds: I am aware of that one.

THE CHAIR: You are aware of that one. With that sort of thing those people will come to the elected body, the RAOs or whatever and then go through that process so that there is consultation.

MS BROWN: The Ngunnawal bush healing farm is for young people and older people that have had serious substance abuse problems. They will be detoxed in town of course, because it is out on Paddys River Road, out at Tidbinbilla. The property is called Miowera and the government has purchased that for us. We are thinking of things like a bush tucker garden to generate economic development for the community in Canberra. They will also be doing various other things. So we need all the support we can get.

There will be no drugs out there—but probably panadol and stuff like that—because, as I said, it is too far out of town for a start and we do not have a hospital out there. I really believe drugs inhibit the learning process. Once they are detoxed and they are not sick from it anymore, this will be a safe education place for them and a place of healing.

We are starting off with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people at first, because of the crisis in the community, but we will also be including non-Indigenous people who need help and would like to learn more about the history and culture.

Mr Reynolds: That is news for me in terms of the interface and the communication between the RAOs and your committee. I think Rod has got my contact details. There is a range of other projects and, now that I am aware of that, feel free to contact me at any stage.

MS BROWN: Thank you.

Mr Reynolds: We believe we are doing some great things—that is not to say that we

ATSIEB—13-12-11 44 Economic Development Directorate cannot pull our socks up even higher—particularly out in Franklin, with Gubur Dhaura and what is known as the red hill out there. We have been working for over two years out there with a number of the RAOs, developing interpretative art with them. There is a good opportunity there; some of these potential people in rehab might come out and be part of that as well.

MS BROWN: Yes; that is great.

Mr Reynolds: It has been on a very hands-on process. We took an approach of treading lightly on the site. Hopefully in February, we will be having some sort of opening of that. I put the offer out to Rod and Benny, and I guess by default to this committee, that when that occurs we will send an invitation to you and you will definitely have the opportunity to be part of that. It is something where we have found that our staff have got a lot out of it as well. That goes to show some of the cultural commitments that we are making in the organisation. It is not just something we must do; our staff are now starting to really ingrain, and it is becoming part of our whole business approach. I have had two staff come to me and say that they are valuing it and getting something out of it themselves. So that whole awareness is now starting to flow through.

MS BROWN: That is great. The office of Aboriginal affairs provide secretariat support to the United Ngunnawal Elders Council; we can be contacted through them.

Mr Dawes: Are you as the elected body aware of that program that Chris has just outlined?

THE CHAIR: No.

Mr Dawes: So that has not been fed back?

THE CHAIR: No, not really. So include that in some more information.

Mr Dawes: So that highlights the fact of your presence, Benny. Mr Reynolds: Do you prompt them through your agendas—like any updates? THE CHAIR: We are through this process, so it goes on record that we will. That is part of the generic stuff about developing regular briefings. Part of that will come out of this—will be that regular request. And that helps us to focus more on the things that we have in our planning, to develop our planning on that. Mr Reynolds: Rod, as I was saying, the other opportunity for us is that we consult with everybody. It is an open invitation, as we go into developments, that we consult openly and transparently. Then there is the mid-phase, which is where we are actually moving the dirt and doing the landscaping. There is the opportunity to capture culturally significant elements and incorporate them in our estates, which we do typically through our landscaping and reserves. We can put interpretative signage in there and the like.

But part of our philosophy is also that creating subdivisions in estates really is about creating communities. The communities are not just the asphalt and the concrete; they

ATSIEB—13-12-11 45 Economic Development Directorate are the interaction between people and the relationships they have. We have had running for a few years now what we call our mingle program—mingle being creating opportunities for people to mingle. We commit to that for a number of years after the residents move in. There is a fantastic opportunity potentially for you to be part of the events that we run with the new residents.

MS BROWN: That is great.

Mr Reynolds: Christmas carols, barbecues and educational programs about landscaping, using more native species. There is a great opportunity for you to be part of that and pass on a bit more information.

MS BROWN: Yes.

THE CHAIR: That would be great. Fantastic.

MS BROWN: Thank you.

THE CHAIR: Does anybody have any more questions? It sounds great. Thank you for coming along and we look forward to an ongoing relationship with you.

Mr Dawes: I look forward to that as well.

Meeting adjourned from to 12.15 to 1 pm.

ATSIEB—13-12-11 46 Economic Development Directorate Justice and Community Safety Directorate Leigh, Ms Kathy, Director-General Goggs, Mr Stephen, Deputy Director-General Playford, Ms Alison, Deputy Director-General, Justice Field, Ms Julie, Executive Director, Legislation and Policy Branch Lowrey, Ms Dymphna, Acting Manager, Restorative Justice Unit, Legislation and Policy Branch Mitcherson, Ms Bernadette, Executive Director, ACT Corrective Services Hinchey, Mr John, Victims of Crime Commissioner Hockridge, Mr Martin, Deputy Chief Executive Officer Purvis, Ms Alison, Courts Administrator, ACT Law Courts and Tribunal Administration Hill, Commander Bruce, Deputy Chief Police Officer, Crime, ACT Policing Heldon, Superintendent Corey, Intelligence, ACT Policing

THE CHAIR: Welcome. Kathy, I will get a brief overview from you, but I would like to alert you to some generic questions that we would like you to take away and probably come back at a later stage with a briefing on. With most of the other directorates, we have asked for a briefing on some particular things, probably at about the end of February. It can be very brief, but at least then it is fairly informative.

There are four main areas where we are asking those generic questions. One is that the elected body be aware of events, engagements and consultations that you have that involve the directorate so that we are informed about what is happening. If that involves community, community can come back to us with specific questions and then we can bring them back to the directorate at a different time.

Another is about the employment strategy. You have probably got some of these answers in your annual report already; I have seen a couple. There is the issue of how the directorate is implementing that strategy and what employment opportunities, and career and development opportunities, there are, along with retention rates. Then it comes down to the numbers, which you have already got in your annual report.

The third part is about progress and demonstrated change within the workplace in relation to the respect, equity and diversity plan. That is those cultural awareness activities—not cultural awareness, but cultural competency or whatever you call it. We are more interested in the cultural change within your organisation in terms of behaviours—if there are any changes across the directorate about that.

The final generic area is around areas of policy and programs that are of significant difference and the benefit where it has benefited Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples in the ACT community.

They are the fairly generic issues. I hope the people back there can start to think about some of those things already. We have got a couple of hours. You have got a large directorate and we have got quite a number of questions which can be taken on notice or be part of that briefing when you come back to us by the end of February, so it is not too onerous to respond.

I think poor old David was indicating that he was going to shoot out and get some answers to questions, but he can relax a bit on that. ATSIEB—13-12-11 47 Justice and Community Safety Directorate Ms Leigh: Great; thanks. I was not actually expecting to do any sort of opening statement. We are very happy to work through whatever topics you would like to raise. From the point of view of the directorate, the major initiative for the whole of government that we have been responsible for is the Aboriginal justice agreement. There has been considerable progress on that, but there is still a long way to go. We would be interested in any comments that you have in that area so that we can keep focused on how we can keep improving in implementing that and what might be future steps in relation to that.

THE CHAIR: That is good. And that is a good start for us. We do have three new members. John Paul had to be called away because at the commonwealth level there has been a change in ministry so he has had to go and do some briefings. Brendan and Benny are our new members here.

You pointed to the justice agreement which we use. We have said that the justice agreement, our report and the government’s response to that report are the focus of this process. You may have heard my disappointment with the response in this report about the justice agreement. It is pretty much that one line about annual basis reporting. The elected body is not happy with that. I understand that we have an advisory group that meets quarterly.

Ms Leigh: That is right.

THE CHAIR: I think that it would not be unreasonable for the elected body to expect a quarterly report for that. I understand that that advisory group reports quarterly. Is that something you can do for us?

Ms Leigh: I do not think there would be any problem with that all. Brendan is on that group and we provide an update for each meeting of that group. We are more than happy to share that with the elected body as a whole.

THE CHAIR: I am thinking that because it is a partnership agreement we would look to having a report that covers the whole of the agreement, and that report would include the other directorates—to have input into that.

Ms Leigh: Yes.

THE CHAIR: I would also expect that part of that would be having a look at those actions and whether those actions have been completed, progressed or whatever. It would give us a good feel about where we are at with it. I know that part of the response was that there were a hundred and whatever actions in the plan, but they do not all belong to JACS.

Ms Leigh: Sure. We are just responsible for the overall agreements.

THE CHAIR: That is as the lead agency, yes. We are looking at that. You may have also heard that I have expressed a request for some sort of performance framework that underpins that, and there is some work happening with that. We are looking at the COAG performance reporting framework as well. We want to line up the frameworks and pretty much look at some of those key action areas and see whether we have ATSIEB—13-12-11 48 Justice and Community Safety Directorate progressed or achieved anything so that we can learn from those, so both you and we are more informed.

Through that process, we want to be able to provide better advice. As you know, through our legislation, we are required to develop and design programs. This will go back to that very point that I was making about what areas of policy and programs you guys have in your heads in the lead-up to budget estimates and things like that. We asked every directorate, including Treasury and the Chief Minister’s department to ask: what is the elected body’s view on this proposal, this program or this policy? We ask you, respectfully, to take that on board in terms of your work.

Let me get down to some more specifics. The very first one, which you will have heard us talk about many times, and it is amongst our priorities, is about the level of services from our Aboriginal legal services and through the ACT Legal Aid office and the women’s legal services. From this year’s budget, I understand, there have been some contributions to the women’s legal services.

Ms Leigh: That is right.

THE CHAIR: From all reports, there is still some inadequacy there; we are not meeting the target. Resourcing there is always an issue that we understand. But in terms of the Aboriginal legal services, Alison and I were out with the Attorney- General last week. This is a new elected body; it is time for some new dialogue about this. It is not a matter that is going to go off our priority straightaway just because there are no resources. We need to think about how we collectively, in partnership with the justice agreement—and what are the resources we have to develop a proposal that is going to meet the needs of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander community and also ensure that those who are responsible for delivering services actually get a service to the people in the community. That might mean a lot of other conversations, including conversations around reinvestment and so on, but they are things to come. So I just flag those very early. That is one priority that is not going to go off our list until we have some satisfactory dialogue and some strategies we will work up together.

Ms Leigh: Can I say on that that we would be very keen to work with you on that. As you said, the government has taken initiatives in the previous budget to provide more funding for the Women’s Legal Centre and also for the ACT Legal Aid Commission.

One of the issues that we are constantly endeavouring to improve is the relationship with the commonwealth, because the commonwealth is also providing funding. The difficulty with the budget process is that it is always confidential until it is announced, so trying to make sure there is some coordination between the commonwealth and the ACT in terms of the funding, and that we get the most out of the funding that is provided, is not an easy task. It is something that we have been working very hard at, and the commonwealth has been working with us on that.

We have had many meetings with the relevant officials in the commonwealth to make sure we both understand exactly what we are endeavouring to achieve and where the money goes. I think that is an area where we want to keep working, because we cannot afford for the money not to be well coordinated and put to best use. That is a key to doing that. ATSIEB—13-12-11 49 Justice and Community Safety Directorate THE CHAIR: Yes, and of course we have a new federal Attorney-General. But there are some new people on this elected body that have got some different ways of thinking on the approach, and we would like to use all of that experience and those resources and connections to put a new spin on this dialogue so that we can work towards something that is going to be of benefit to all of us.

Ms Leigh: Yes; we would be very keen to do that.

THE CHAIR: In terms of the legal aid office, as I said earlier, part of our responsibilities under the legislation is to obtain the views of the community, including people who work in places. In the lead-up to this process we have fielded many questions from our community. One of those has been, as I said, around the legal services but also around legal aid. We saw in this year’s budget that there was a small amount of money.

Ms Leigh: That is right.

THE CHAIR: In terms of looking at the expenditure report and the investment of government money, the small amount that we saw really was not going to have any sort of impact at all. We have got some feedback now that there is probably no impact.

Ms Leigh: I might ask Martin Hockridge from Legal Aid to come to the table. In relation to that funding, Legal Aid put in a budget bid to the commonwealth and the ACT governments in the hope of funding a full-time liaison officer. The ACT government provided the funding that was sought and unfortunately the commonwealth, in allocating its money, had allocated that money elsewhere. Again, it goes back to that issue of how we coordinate the allocation of funding so that we do get the best out of our money. That is an example of where it did not work as well as we would have liked.

THE CHAIR: I will come back to that point about that single question: what is the elected body’s view on this? Quite often we see that submissions go up and we do not really have a good handle on what they are and we do not have the opportunity to add value to that. That is what we want to be able to do.

Ms Leigh: Yes. Martin, would you like to make some more comments about that funding and how it has been used?

Mr Hockridge: The request was for an Indigenous liaison officer; that was the principal reason that we were asking for money. It followed the Legal Aid Forum’s report from several years ago. We were very happy that the ACT government provided $48,000 towards that. So we were then in a position to employ a part-time Indigenous liaison officer. At the same time as we had requested the ACT government for that funding, we had put up a similar budget bid to the commonwealth which, as Kathy has indicated, was not successful, certainly not at that time. So we were only in a position to get somebody who was part time.

Towards the end of last year the commonwealth government did, however, provide us with a one-off additional payment. Part of that additional payment was earmarked to ATSIEB—13-12-11 50 Justice and Community Safety Directorate be used towards making the ILO position, if not full time at least a lot closer to full time. But that is not ongoing funding from the commonwealth. So that is where we are at in terms of the ILO position.

THE CHAIR: Could you explain to us what are the fundamental reasons behind the unsuccessful budget bids and the negotiations that you had? We really need to understand why these things happen. It is not just a matter of saying, “We accept that we didn’t get this budget bid.” That, to me, means we might need to do some more work around building a budget bid that can convince people, an investor, that this is worthwhile investing in. I am sure you do this on a daily basis but it seems to me that nationally the overcoming disadvantage process tells us that this is probably one of the worst areas in our community. We know that health is on improvement, we know that education is on improvement, yet the things at the other end of the scale, with our people going into custody and through the justice system, are not good enough for us. We want to improve that. So if the budget bids are not effective then we want to know why they are not effective.

Ms Leigh: I think it is hard for Martin or me to comment on how the commonwealth decided to allocate the money it had available to it because that ranges far wider than any areas that we have knowledge of. Certainly the commonwealth did provide money for the Women’s Legal Centre, and the ACT government had also provided that money. Perhaps the key message I take away is that we need to work very hard on coordination to make sure that whatever funding is available from the commonwealth for the ACT is well coordinated with the funding that the ACT government can make available.

Mr Hockridge: We would certainly want to work with community organisations to improve the information that we have which we can then put in place as budget bids.

THE CHAIR: I will go back to our piece of legislation. I am being forceful in this because we are required to ask the directorates these particular questions, to help us to design and develop programs and policies. I thank you for taking this on board. I would extend that to making a request for a time frame when we can start the dialogue on this, because it is an important issue. We have got the budget process coming up and we would like to understand where your thinking is. We want to be able to add value to that thinking so that we can begin to work more in partnership, because the justice agreement is there for us to do that. Let us use that framework and let us use it more effectively, because we feel that it has not been effective enough, from the feedback from our communities.

MR HODGES: Just consider our view on that. That is why we are asking directorates to consider what our views are. I do not know what the process is for approval or non- approval, but our view on this particular position is that it is a very high priority. To leave it for consideration and say, “We don’t know what the commonwealth thinks,” is not good enough.

MS BROWN: Also, where is closing the gap? How is the gap going to be closed if we are not resourced properly and we are treated like beggars in our own country all the time? This is disgraceful—to knock back a $48,000 position.

THE CHAIR: I think the clear messages are that we look at all aspects of our ATSIEB—13-12-11 51 Justice and Community Safety Directorate jurisdiction—the small population, and sometimes the average. We asked some time ago about collection of data to give us a bit of a baseline to work from. I note that we have got some data in relation to the justice agreement. This bit of work came to us yesterday, which really has not enabled us to prepare some questions. So there is a message there in terms of timeliness and so on.

The quality of the work is great. But I have asked Julie about this on a few occasions. This comes back to a question raised some time ago when JACS had promoted that they had best practice but the stats were not telling us that. A layperson’s interpretation of those stats was that you have a good process for getting our people into the system, into the institutions, and nothing in terms of through-care, prevention and diversion. So that is a very broad interpretation.

We want to work together on this with you: how do we better develop that information? What baselines do we have to work from? Then we start to have the dialogue about the programs and the effectiveness of the programs. In that way I think we can get there.

Let us get back to the legal aid program. You started to give us a brief update about that program. I understand that someone has just left the legal aid office?

Mr Hockridge: Yes. Unfortunately our ILO, who was with us since, I think, November last year, has left recently.

MS BROWN: Is that Debbie Evans?

Mr Hockridge: Debbie Evans, yes. She is unwell, so we are now, having started to advertise to recruit for the other position for which the additional money was coming through from the commonwealth, having to recruit for the whole position. That is sad because she was doing a really good job of getting things moving along. So at the moment we are without an ILO.

THE CHAIR: In terms of the retention and career development strategy, do you have a plan to keep those people? What are your plans? It may be that this person is unwell, but part of the employment strategy is to attract people into the public service. Do you have a plan for that for the legal aid office? “How do I to attract Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people? Where do I go to advertise this?” I will leave that with you to think about.

Mr Hockridge: We do, a little bit. Debbie was quite useful in terms of giving us some ideas about where we should be advertising and who we should be talking to when it was the other part-time position to her position that was in fact being advertised. So we are developing the plan along that line, and we also want to feed in with the larger Justice and Community Safety plan; that is being developed as well. So it is in mind. We have only got one HR officer. Certainly it is on her agenda to be looking at employment strategy, particularly for ATSI people.

THE CHAIR: Can I ask, respectfully, please do not use “ATSI people”.

Mr Hockridge: Sorry.

ATSIEB—13-12-11 52 Justice and Community Safety Directorate THE CHAIR: It is something that I have heard quite a bit in the last couple of days, even in some of the commentary. We would rather use the full language.

Mr Hockridge: Right.

THE CHAIR: There are very distinct differences.

Mr Hockridge: Sorry.

THE CHAIR: That is all right; that is another matter. In terms of your statistics, to access your services there is some means testing happening; is that correct?

Mr Hockridge: There is a means test to get a grant of legal assistance but there is no means test in relation to any of our other services. Legal Aid ACT provides information services, legal information services, legal advice, a duty lawyer and some minor assistance and minor advocacy services. It is only the grants of legal aid, the grants of financial legal assistance, that are ongoing where there is a financial means test. Does that answer your question in that regard?

THE CHAIR: Yes. So by comparison with the Aboriginal Legal Service, which is predominantly criminal representation, if you were looking at criminal representation from the legal aid office, that would need to be means tested; would that be correct?

Mr Hockridge: For an ongoing grant of legal assistance, it would be means tested, yes.

THE CHAIR: Okay. It seems to me we might need to have some conversations around enabling people to get access to that. As you would know, consistently and usually, the perpetrator or offender gets the service and representation a lot quicker from an Aboriginal legal service, but then the victim is left still being a victim and not getting representation. There are not too many other places to go to apart from either a private firm or the legal aid office. We do have the women’s advocacy service, legal services—

Mr Hockridge: We certainly encourage people to contact us if they have got a legal issue, which can include non-criminal issues, and certainly any sort of victims of crime issues.

THE CHAIR: So with victims of crime you can do that?

Mr Hockridge: Yes.

Ms Leigh: It might also be worth mentioning the Women’s Legal Centre because they are also available to assist in those circumstances.

THE CHAIR: But they do not do representation, do they?

Ms Leigh: No, but they can assist with supporting people who are in that position. I just thought it was worth mentioning.

Mr Hockridge: They will often refer to us, and then we will arrange for ATSIEB—13-12-11 53 Justice and Community Safety Directorate representation as well.

THE CHAIR: Okay.

Mr Hockridge: So it does not much matter where the entry point is, so long as the person—

THE CHAIR: That is the sort of useful information that we would like so that we can pass it on to people. It goes to the point of where representation is required. If people do not know what the process is, they will go to, say, the women’s legal service and they might say, “We don’t do representation,” and they will think, “What the hell,” and then they go somewhere else and are told, “Well, we can’t do anything about it.” In the meantime the perpetrator gets full representation and so on. So our biggest concern is about the victims.

MS COLLINS: Also, Rod, to add to that in terms of the women’s legal service and the position there, it is not only about, “Well, we can’t help you,” but the workload of that one person is phenomenal. How do you look at determining the workload? The workload that she has is not a good thing. She is overworked and underpaid. Is there the capacity to increase the number of positions or increase some resources to assist the service that she provides, which is so fundamental and important to our Indigenous community?

Ms Leigh: That was, of course, new funding in the last budget. That was the government’s initiative to try and meet those needs that were not being met. Certainly the Women’s Legal Centre always put forward proposals to government in the community consultations prior to the budget. If they were able to put forward a case to demonstrate that there is increased demand, they should do that as part of that—and I am sure they would because they are very well organised in putting in their budget proposals.

MS COLLINS: You are not aware if anything has been put forward for the budget proposals for next year?

Ms Leigh: I do not think we are quite at that stage of detail yet, but I am sure that they would be well aware of that. We are always happy to talk to them about it, of course.

MR CHURCH: Just on that question, Kathy, could you provide us with a brief update or overview as to the direction in which the directorate is going in the next 12 months, or priority areas?

Ms Leigh: The government has set down its priority areas for 2011-12. The government sets them down for each financial year, so we are halfway through the current year. Of particular interest to the elected body is the Aboriginal justice agreement as a priority for government. Really, that is the umbrella that covers all of the areas where we are focused on the interests of the elected body.

MR CHURCH: There have been a lot of issues raised around the increase in stats around domestic and family violence. What is the directorate intending to do to address those areas?

ATSIEB—13-12-11 54 Justice and Community Safety Directorate Ms Leigh: There has been the particular initiative jointly with the commonwealth on domestic and family violence, and then there has been the specific ACT strategy under that. That is probably the key response that we have had in that area.

Ms Playford: One of the key strands coming out of the ACT strategy around violence and domestic violence is around Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander women and children. So there will be a body of work that we are trying to progress, which fits neatly, I guess, into some of the areas in the Aboriginal justice agreement that fit those areas. It is something that our directorate is doing jointly with the Community Services Directorate and feeds into the national plan in that area.

MR CHURCH: So it would be fair to say that if there were to be bids put up around that area, they would be considered as a priority through government?

Ms Leigh: It is hard to make that sort of comment because that is really a comment that should go to ministers rather than us, as there are so many priorities for government. But clearly that is a matter that the government has been focused on. The ACT strategy was only released a few months ago, so it is quite early days in terms of the new initiative that has been taken in that area.

MS BROWN: Violence is not exclusive to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people; we all know that. But it is very common in our community in certain areas. How do you handle the non-Indigenous domestic violence?

Ms Leigh: That is a very broad question. It depends which—

MS BROWN: No, it is a specific question. It is not a broad question. How do you deal with non-Indigenous men that beat their wives and children?

Ms Leigh: What I was trying to say is—

MS BROWN: Do you fund workshops? What do you do?

Ms Leigh: Most of that is in the Community Services Directorate area, but in our portfolio Policing would probably be the best place to start in terms of discussing some of the different points at which we come into play there.

THE CHAIR: Thanks. There may be some additional stuff that comes out that we will add to this as we finish up. Policing might like to come forward. I have a question for the directorate in its entirety. With respect to the justice reinvestment concept that I mentioned earlier, that has been discussed nationally and internationally for some time. There are some proven benefits which I am sure you would be aware of. What is the directorate’s commitment, if any at this point, to justice reinvestment in the short term, through programs and policy changes, that will entail a shift when you are talking about government priorities? How do we influence that thinking about where government shifts its priorities and resources to influence better outcomes? As I said earlier, the evidence is there for this small jurisdiction that it requires some new action and some new initiatives. We already have the framework there. So what is the directorate’s commitment to exploring justice reinvestment?

Ms Leigh: As you say, it is a concept that has been discussed nationally and indeed ATSIEB—13-12-11 55 Justice and Community Safety Directorate internationally. I think it actually came out of the United States originally as a concept. My understanding is that in the United States it was about the funding that is provided by the federal government to the states. For example, with the funding that is provided for corrections to the states, the commitment was given that “if you reduce your prison population we won’t take the money away, you can keep it and reinvest it into other areas that will help to keep your prison population down”.

That is my understanding of where the concept came from originally. Of course the dilemma always is, if you are talking about that reinvestment and putting the money somewhere else, you have to first achieve the improvement. Really, when we talk about it, we have talked about early prevention strategies—ways that we can identify how to step in early to prevent offending, to prevent incarceration. But we also must not forget that we need to deal with recidivism. So we do not want to take away—this is the dilemma—the programs that are aimed at helping people who have already been convicted and detained. We want to help those people not to come back to that same situation. So we have tended to use it much more broadly. Rather than taking money away from one area and putting it somewhere else, we have talked about early prevention.

THE CHAIR: That is why I made the comment about exploring justice reinvestment, because we are very aware of all of the other implications. One is that we have got to take money from somewhere else. I would rather see us invest at the front end, prevention and diversion, than to build another prison. We understand that law and order is generally a good political platform for elections. But we certainly want to make sure that investments are going into prevention, diversion and keeping people out of the system.

Ms Leigh: I think it is an area in which the ACT government has actually performed quite strongly. We had a property crime reduction strategy some years ago and the government is currently working on putting forward a new property crime reduction strategy. We have also had the high density housing project. Both of those have very much focused on what programs we could put in up front as preventative measures. I think they have both been very successful. We see it with offences, in relation to property crime reduction; that also means we have not got people ending up in the AMC. So it has been a very successful program. And we have had so many good reports back on the high density housing project.

They are two areas which the ACT government has been working on for some years. I think we have been at the forefront in this regard.

MS BROWN: How has it benefited the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander community, if you think that they are really strong in those two areas? How has that helped to close the gap?

Ms Leigh: Sometimes in relation to high density housing it can be hard to point to a direct link between particular figures and that project because it is about a small housing precinct. How that flows through into the numbers can sometimes be hard to point to. Certainly with the property crime reduction strategy there is a significant decrease in offending, and that flows through in terms of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander population as well.

ATSIEB—13-12-11 56 Justice and Community Safety Directorate THE CHAIR: Before I go to community policing, the invitation is there for a dialogue on justice reinvestment. I have heard you mention federal government funding a couple of times. We have a jurisdiction here. We understand the limitations of the ACT government. But I have to stress that sometimes it is concerning that an interpretation of that comment, and not necessarily from yourselves, might be that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples are a commonwealth responsibility. No, we are not. We are ACT citizens and we really need to put ourselves at the forefront of the minds of politicians and bureaucrats. We are here, and we are set up under legislation to have the conversations about budget matters, policy development and program development. That helps you guys to do your jobs better and it helps us to meet the needs of the community. I will leave that one with you so that when we have the dialogue on Aboriginal legal services, legal aid and women’s legal services, we have the conversation around budgeting. Let us turn to community policing questions.

MR CHURCH: I have a couple of questions. Since signing the Aboriginal justice agreement there has been a diminished capacity of the crime prevention unit through the reduction in both sworn and unsworn officers. While it was at full capacity, it was evident that the unit was able to engage well with the community and achieve some fairly good outcomes. That was done through one or two operational staff. Can you provide some information about the forward planning for crime prevention, as to what you are doing in the next 12 months in terms of the resourcing for that unit?

Cmdr Hill: Just for clarity, crime prevention is one part of ACT Policing. It consists of 40-odd police officers, and unsworn as well. They have a number of key strategies. One is obviously the Indigenous and Torres Strait Islanders strategy. We have three members. A sergeant and two members are attached to that team who are specifically dedicated to that role. That has not diminished. Those three are still in place; those three positions are still filled. I think what you are talking about is that before we had a particular person who was extremely dedicated to that role and went well above and beyond what I would call his duty. He did exceptional work. He has created an incredible legacy which we are now trying to follow and pursue.

We have still got very much a strong effort in that front area. Nothing has diminished. Crime prevention, as a unit, is going through a review process just to bring it up to the 2011 model. It is probably sitting on a 2009 model. That is going through that machination now. But the service and the people in there will not diminish at all. That is guaranteed.

MR CHURCH: There have also been—and you have touched on it before—some changes in the management of staff in the unit which has affected operations as well. What sort of strategies does the force or the organisation have to ensure that staff are retained in that unit to ensure consistency in the community?

Cmdr Hill: Are you talking about crime prevention in total?

MR CHURCH: Crime prevention.

Cmdr Hill: Policing, by its pure nature, is very dynamic in our numbers, going up and down all the time. So crime prevention at some stage will be fully staffed; at other times it is not. We purposely went through a strategy probably about six or eight months ago to make sure our front-line staffing was covered off. So we had the ATSIEB—13-12-11 57 Justice and Community Safety Directorate maximum amount of people on the front line. They are our crime prevention officers as well. Unfortunately, there has been an ethos that crime prevention sits as a separate unit on the side. My view, and the ethos, is that every single member of ACT police is involved in crime prevention and they need to understand the strategies that corporately we are adopting, so that they go off into the field and adopt those strategies.

We are realigning our staffing in those areas now with some new staff. There has been a turnover of some staff, the turnover of the senior manager who is running it, and we are going in a similar direction but probably just consolidating what we have got there. So nothing is really going to change per se. The focus and the ministerial direction that drives us, and also our KPIs, are all still in place. Nothing substantially has changed.

MR CHURCH: The justice agreement indicates that organisations, including the AFP, should look for opportunities to support Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander staff to undertake professional development, particularly in the area of mediation and conflict resolution. Can you provide any information on how the AFP has supported officers in the past 12 months?

Cmdr Hill: Again, just for clarity for the rest of the elected body, ACT Policing is a function of the AFP. So the Australian Federal Police policies and procedures actually drive where we operate. We have a very active work-life diversity team within the Australian Federal Police who are looking at equity and diversity across the whole spectrum. We actively assist our staff. This year, for example, three went up to Darwin, to Mawul Rom; in the previous year 10 went up to that course. That was an excellent opportunity to take some of our front-line police and have them exposed to cross-cultural awareness.

MR CHURCH: It was my understanding that they were not supported through the police force to attend that course.

Cmdr Hill: No, three went up. We fund their salaries. They were sponsored this year by the organisation up in Darwin. Unfortunately, that funding comes from the AFP, from a central vote. We do not have funding for that particular aspect. This year, because of our usual budget cuts, that was not afforded to us.

MS BROWN: Did you say that you have sent police officers up to Darwin to have cultural training?

Cmdr Hill: Yes.

MS BROWN: Why couldn’t they have it here?

Cmdr Hill: I went up to Mawul Rom. I found it to be excellent in every aspect. It was not so much about a particular tribe or area; it was to do with Indigenous culture—the history and a true cross-cultural awareness. It was not necessarily Aboriginal; it was just an understanding of another culture and how they operate, and to try and understand how there should be mutual respect. That was the key concept—mutual respect for each other and, as you would appreciate under reconciliation, trying to come to that middle point. It was very beneficial. ATSIEB—13-12-11 58 Justice and Community Safety Directorate MS BROWN: I still do not understand it because they are a completely different culture to south-east Australian Aboriginal people. I think the money would have been better spent on having it here with the people that they police in the area here. There is another question I need to ask, and this is with respect, of course. How do you deal with racism in the police force towards Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people? Do you have mentoring to help people to heal their own racist tendencies?

Cmdr Hill: Can I answer the first one? I think the Darwin course is very important in some ways because it has an academic association. So you actually go and do the course. It is tied to Charles Darwin University. If you do the four years of the course and do the academic component, you will actually come out at the end of the course with an academic qualification.

MS BROWN: We have the ANU here, the University of Canberra and the Australian Catholic University. That will be an argument that will go on forever between you and I.

Cmdr Hill: For the record, it is a very good course.

MS BROWN: I still think it would be better to deal with the locals than to go away. That, to me, would be like going to France and asking them how to deal with Germany, because we come from 500 different nations. This is no disrespect to the people in Darwin either.

MR HODGES: Commander, going back to where you mentioned the three officers going up to do that course, when they have come back, what is the highlight or the most significant change that you have noticed in those three that they have brought back here to share amongst the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander community or with their co-workers?

Cmdr Hill: One is in charge of the Indigenous team, so he brought back that better understanding of the Aboriginal culture. He works with Aboriginals every single day.

MR HODGES: And what was that understanding?

Cmdr Hill: The understanding was that we need to promulgate this through the AFP, through ACT Policing. It is not just a matter of one unit going out there and trying to do this work. We have actively now used them as a central focus but we are trying at every single station to promulgate that understanding and education for our guys, so that they better understand and can better deal with the issues out there.

MR HODGES: Have you had any feedback or have you noticed any changes amongst those stations?

Cmdr Hill: The influence it had on me, for example, when I came back, was that I was able to describe my experience and my understanding and pass that on to my colleagues and immediate group around me. I would anticipate that would happen to the 10 that came with me in their environments as well. With those three who came back, one is the officer in charge of city station. He is an Indigenous officer and he runs city station. So he has got incredible influence now over that whole station. ATSIEB—13-12-11 59 Justice and Community Safety Directorate To follow up on your question, racism in ACT Policing is something that I would be very disappointed to see. I am sure it does happen from time to time. If it does, we have a very strict regime within the AFP. Those people will be held to account very quickly. If they do not adhere to the code of conduct, those type of people can be dismissed. We engender that culture, that adherence to our values and code of conduct, 100 per cent. I am most open to hearing anything like that. That is totally unaccepted in our police force.

MS BROWN: Thank you.

MS COLLINS: I would be interested to hear a bit more about the level of cultural competency that you guys develop or promote within ACT Policing as well as within the JACS Directorate and how that operates. Is it training that all staff receive throughout, and do they continue? It is a lifelong journey learning about Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander culture and history. We all do not have all the answers and understand the complexities of that. You have spoken about three staff that go up. You have got however many other staff who have not been afforded that opportunity. I know it is a lot of responsibility for those three staff to bring it back and change some attitudes and beliefs of the rest of the ACT Policing. How do you go about making that more real—spread the word, continue your staff in understanding about our Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander culture and people?

Cmdr Hill: I will draw an analogy. We have got an excellent initiative which we basically took from New South Wales police in relation to mental health. It is a four- day program to train our front-line police in dealing with mental health consumers. So far we have trained about 120. Members are brought in off the streets for our front- line police to go through four days of training with people from all walks of life. I think there is about an hour and a half or an hour of training specifically for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. There is training to do with Sudanese. There are a number of cultures; a number of medical professionals come in.

We try and deliver cultural understanding not just for Aboriginals but for everybody —that there is this mutual respect where you have to understand the consumer’s situation, the mental health consumer’s situation. Police, historically, have come in and just wanted to lock people up and throw them into jail. We are trying to change that whole approach. We are a police service primarily. We are there to go and help people, to divert to specialists to try and assist them. The last thing we want to do is put them into an incarcerated system. If they do get there, hopefully we get them out very quickly and put them through a through-care process with our other government departments and try and help instead of them getting in that spiral and down they go.

MS COLLINS: I know it is hard work, but I think the statistics do not reflect that, because our mob are still being locked up at higher rates.

Cmdr Hill: I agree. This does take a long time. We are trying to do a whole a series of things, but it does not happen overnight.

MS COLLINS: Absolutely.

Cmdr Hill: To educate a police force can take a long time. ATSIEB—13-12-11 60 Justice and Community Safety Directorate MS BROWN: It will not happen overnight, but it should not take a really long time either. We are not expecting overnight successes, but we are expecting a time frame for change to happen. We are often told—every directorate that has come here since yesterday morning has told us—that it is going to take a long time. We have heard that for years. How long is a long time? This is not a personal attack on anybody; it is just voicing the frustration of the community, of the parents of these young people and the families of these young people, and older people, that have a high representation in the justice system. But I want to get back to that question: how do you deal with non-Indigenous men, white Australian men, that are beating their wives and children? Do they have workshops about their violence?

Cmdr Hill: There are probably two ways to approach that answer. It is an extremely difficult problem, and it is rank in our society. A lot of our guys every day will go off and do domestic violence stuff. It is a very serious problem. When we arrive at a house, for example, there are two aspects. We have to deal with the perpetrator, and we go off and hopefully deal with them. You either incarcerate or, hopefully, try to divert them to some kind of rehabilitation. The second part, which is far more difficult, is the victim.

We have a system, supportLink, which is a referral process. The individual officer returns back to the station and puts the referral through supportLink. SupportLink then sends it off to specialist areas. There are a couple of people in this room who can speak far better about the specialist services than I can. Supporting the victim is very critical in the ACT, and we have done a lot of work to do that. Looking after the perpetrator is also part of the problem. A lot of those people have had some sad upbringings and have come to a point in their life where now they are just—

MS BROWN: Where it becomes the norm for them to be violent.

Cmdr Hill: We are doing all sorts of things. White Ribbon Day is a perfect example, 25 November. We went out there just to sell the ribbons and raise awareness. I came across three women. One in particular was in an extremely violent situation; we had to take her off line that day while she was buying a ribbon to try and help her in her situation. It was just horrific—absolutely horrific. And that is happening every day. It is a very difficult problem.

THE CHAIR: Bruce, I want to go back to action 19 in the justice agreement:

Adaption of current engagement strategies to the needs of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander community.

The performance indicator is:

Development of new strategies and projects.

It sounds as though you are actually doing some of this. Would you be able to provide, in this package maybe, Kathy, when responding and looking at some of these things, as to whether they have actually been done or what is the status of them. I am hearing that you are doing some things which might address this as saying, “We are doing this stuff.” It might not be new anymore, but it might be a strategy that might ATSIEB—13-12-11 61 Justice and Community Safety Directorate need some more investment so that it has more of an impact—like the cultural training and so on.

Let me go back to the mental health one, which is another one that we will bring up and we have spoken about. It has been a question that the elected body has been asked to table that listing with ACT Policing. You talked about the unit and all that training and stuff. But visually for anybody there may be—in this case there has been a situation where somebody is troubled by a mental health issue. For police to turn up to a mental health situation with one or two vans, armed to the teeth, not only adds trauma to that individual but also creates a whole different environment for the neighbours and the other people that are involved there—the parents of those people as well.

We are hoping that first we can get more Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander trained mental health professionals—this is probably a question for Health later on, down the track, but it might be useful in terms of your conversations around mental health— whether it be through that program that you are talking about already or something else. Do they need to become officers? I think not. They may be related to the profession that may be able to help your officers in dealing with some of these situations where there may be a familiar face. There may be somebody who is not dressed in a uniform and armed to the teeth who goes to the situation. That is quite daunting, and reactions to that sort of situation can result in going into custody. I just wanted to flag that with you, because that has been one of the issues that have been raised with us by the community.

Then there are the impacts on people living in an ordinary suburb. They do not want to tell all their neighbours that their children have mental health issues, but when you see a couple of vans turn up and police come and perhaps even take somebody away, it does not really contribute to relationships. We were talking earlier about building nation, nation building, and the mingling program which we heard about from the previous directorate. That does not really contribute to that sort of situation when we are trying to engage through reconciliation and all those other things.

I am sure you are aware of this. You look as though you are stunned or amazed at this, but this actually does happen and people’s anxiety levels will go through the roof. It is something that I hope you—

Cmdr Hill: Can I respond to that if that is all right?

THE CHAIR: Yes.

Cmdr Hill: This mental health intervention team has been one of the most outstanding strategies I have seen in policing. It is a partnership with Health, and the results we have got in 12 months are simply outstanding. Ten per cent of our effort is in mental health. Ten per cent of our calls are mental health. If we can reduce that and divert that off to ambulance or Health, and it is not police resources being tied up, that is an incredible amount of resourcing that can then go back to mainstream that we can use for other things. And it is simply working. This is great.

I could not agree more with you—when I first got here. Putting a consumer in the back of a cage van is an absolute disgrace. It is the last thing that should occur unless ATSIEB—13-12-11 62 Justice and Community Safety Directorate it is an absolutely exceptional circumstance. Turning up with armed police is the wrong approach in a lot of ways. We have health professionals in our operations centre on Thursday, Friday and Saturday nights. They advise our police officers on the road what to do and how to deal with the situation. It has been fantastic.

THE CHAIR: That is good. That is fantastic. I commend you on that. That is really good. We look forward to hearing more about that program. That will be just terrific.

Supt Heldon: Can I add something?

THE CHAIR: Yes.

Supt Heldon: In relation to that and your comment about other attendance, our team, the mental health initiative team, are actually providing short courses to—

THE CHAIR: Sorry, they cannot pick you up. We need to record you. I do not want to scare you.

Supt Heldon: No; that is okay. I just wanted to say that what we are actually doing is providing short training for members of Health and for the Ambulance Service. Part of the initiative is not just to train police; it is also to provide some further advice and guidance to the other professionals who will attend mental health incidents. As Mr Hill said, and you reiterated it, it becomes the entire community that deals with mental health issues. It should not just be a police response. It is also an ambulance response; it is a clinician response; it is ACT Health as well. It is only in the first part of development, but so far the feedback from the Health people and from the Ambulance Service has been quite positive. So I think that is a really good way forward.

THE CHAIR: Just to extend it, No 19 talks about Aboriginal community. You have responded about your partnership with Health. Is there an intention to have a partnership with a community-based organisation, an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander organisation, to facilitate some of that training so that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples can become part of that program as well?

Cmdr Hill: They are part of the training. They do come to that four-day course and actually present on the course. That is part of the process.

THE CHAIR: Not so much present but participate in this program is what I am talking about. As an example, say you have a partnership with Googan or Winnunga —that sort of Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander organisation. Might you take your program into that organisation?

Cmdr Hill: Certainly we can consider that.

THE CHAIR: Okay.

Cmdr Hill: We are open to any suggestions.

THE CHAIR: That would be good.

ATSIEB—13-12-11 63 Justice and Community Safety Directorate MR HODGES: Could I just ask something? Could you share with us whether you have any recruitment strategies in the ACT to bring Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander people on in ACT Policing?

Cmdr Hill: Yes, we do. The AFP—the Australian Federal Police organisation itself— diversity team has an assessment centre which is underway right now to take on Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people specifically in the recruitment program. That is one of our strategies, and there will be an intake in the future. But the AFP recruits externally for the AFP. We are a part of the AFP; they will do that independently and some of those people potentially would flow into ACT Policing.

MR HODGES: The numbers you have in ACT Policing at the moment are about what?

Cmdr Hill: We have about 910 today.

MR HODGES: Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander people in ACT Policing?

Cmdr Hill: Not sure at the moment. It would be very small. It would not be representative of the community. That is a continual problem with policing across this country.

THE CHAIR: You would be able to give us some of those stats, would you?

Cmdr Hill: Most certainly.

THE CHAIR: Okay; thank you.

MR HODGES: Particularly if there are female police officers. We see a lot of the male fellows putting their hands up, but we want to know why our women are not putting their hands up.

Cmdr Hill: That has been a continued problem across the country. It does not stop for any police force—to have that equality across. We cannot get it. I think the recruiting process is one in five females, 20 per cent, which is not representative of the community. It should be 50 per cent. It is a difficult thing.

MS COLLINS: It would be interesting to know those who are part of that recruitment process in terms of Indigenous people applying. If so, why are they not getting through the assessment process? If it is a trend that we are seeing, perhaps we can encourage our mob to understand better and promote that the AFP is a great place to work, that it provides a good career and lots of opportunities.

Cmdr Hill: This one is a specific Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander traineeship- cadetship, so specifically for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

MS COLLINS: And all of them get through?

Cmdr Hill: No; not all of them get through. No way. That is again part of the problem of getting the quality people to become a police officer. Not everyone has got the aptitude to be a police officer. I most certainly can provide you with information on ATSIEB—13-12-11 64 Justice and Community Safety Directorate that, because that is a specific program that we operate.

MS BROWN: I think there is a fear, too, because of past and present things by the Australian police force, such as the murder of the fellow on Palm Island. We do not think that was dealt with appropriately by the law. I know that people in my community think it is all policemen, but we know there are those that know it is not. But there is a general fear, especially among less educated people. And also there was the old man that was transported across the desert in a bull wagon and died.

Those atrocities really weigh heavy on Aboriginal people. It makes good police look bad in the eyes of Aboriginal people. People with a higher level of education know that it is not all police. The majority are good police. There are a few bad apples, just like in every community or workforce, that make it look bad for the majority. I think —I do not think; I know—that there is a genuine fear of the police force in the Aboriginal community of my people, the Ngunnawal people.

Cmdr Hill: That is disappointing, because crime prevention by its nature is trying to engage the community so that they understand what policing is about. We are a service; we are looking after the community. The police force component is when someone goes past that criminal law bar and breaks the law. Then it is our job to take them into custody and the justice system. But we put a lot of front-end effort in now. We have a lot of police officers going to all sorts of events, and cultural events, so that they see us as what we are. We are police officers; 99.9 per cent of the police are very good people, but that last bit is always the part we want to weed out no matter where it is.

MS BROWN: Yes.

Cmdr Hill: As you said, it is unfortunate when you have a Palm Island event because that smears the rest; it is very disappointing when that occurs.

MR HODGES: It is the old stereotype thing that we have heard a bit about in the past. They stereotype police for those sorts of incidents. We are quite familiar with those stereotype situations.

Cmdr Hill: Yes, and we are working very hard to change it, as you are.

MR CHURCH: Bruce, I have got some correspondence from the Aboriginal Legal Service. They have raised some concerns around clients being afforded their rights when taken into custody. You would be aware that the police have got a mandate to contact the ALS or the Aboriginal Justice Centre for an interview friend. From their experience, that has not been happening. Can you let us know what the procedures are for your staff when an Aboriginal person comes into custody?

Cmdr Hill: Do you want that now, Brendan? I can probably narrate that back to you via letter.

MR CHURCH: Yes, if you can get that back to us that would be—

Cmdr Hill: If there are issues in relation to process, we are more than happy to hear that because it might be through lack of education by some of our guys. ATSIEB—13-12-11 65 Justice and Community Safety Directorate THE CHAIR: Thanks very much for that, Bruce.

Cmdr Hill: Pleasure.

THE CHAIR: I am sure we will hear some more on some of those good things that you are doing. We would like to make some contributions to add value to a lot of the things that you are doing to support the community and, I guess, take a lot of the weight off the work that you guys do and let you relax a little because you have got so much happening.

Kathy, we would not mind getting into some of the other conversations, particularly around Corrective Services. Have we got someone from Victims Support here?

Ms Leigh: Yes, we do. Would you like both people at the same time? John Hinchey is here from Victims Support. Bernadette Mitcherson is from Corrections.

THE CHAIR: Yes. Because we have spent a lot of time on it and it would be good to have that focus, we might hear some more on that.

MR CHURCH: I will ask a question of Bernadette, if I could, around the assertive outreach program through community safety. Can you provide an update on the data?

Ms Mitcherson: Do you mean the probation and parole?

MR CHURCH: The breaches.

Ms Mitcherson: I have not got breaches here but I can give you an update on the reporting.

MR CHURCH: Okay.

Ms Mitcherson: There were two Indigenous probation and parole officers, as you know, and you would also know that when I arrived in April, the section was actively recruiting. We advertised a couple of times and the third time around we had a good response—and Brendan was on the panel—in relation to the recruitment. We are starting on 16 January at Winnunga to do our work with caseworkers there and do reporting at Winnunga so that we can combine that with any casework they may have in relation to working together.

Brendan, you also know we have started the home visits with the AJC every fortnight. I think that is having an impact as well. And we are looking to re-engage with Northside again for the other end of town in terms of looking at also, again, doing the reporting out there, to save coming into Civic.

I am also very aware of the other thing that we want to touch on next year. We are doing a review of community-based corrections generally. That will have an impact on our Indigenous clients as well. I want to look at whether we should be doing more programs out in the community rather than them having to come into Civic as well. Again it is a transport issue for Indigenous and non-Indigenous clients; so we are going to explore those options of actually doing some more groups out of Civic and in ATSIEB—13-12-11 66 Justice and Community Safety Directorate the community so that they can meet that requirement of being in the group and reporting at the same time.

We have about 87 Indigenous clients on active supervision with probation and parole. That is not counting those that are just doing compliance or community service work. It is between 70 and 75 men and between 12 and 15 women. That can change on any day, of course. In terms of the breach rates, Brendan, I can take that on notice.

MS COLLINS: Can you explain it a bit more? You are going really fast and I cannot understand what you are saying.

Ms Mitcherson: Sorry.

MS COLLINS: The re-engagement with Northside, what was that about?

Ms Mitcherson: In terms of reporting for Indigenous clients and in terms of the transport into Civic, we are looking to make both ends of town covered. I am not from the ACT, so I am not sure of the geography. But it is an issue in terms of transport, a lot of breaches about not getting into Civic to do the reporting. Rather than that, we do the reporting in a community centre where they might also be engaged with childcare activities or other things that they might be involved in in the community. We have got some shared casework which can work on the through-care as well. We do have some Indigenous clients who have come out of AMC recently and have been working with Northside in terms of employment strategies and working with the police; likewise, we have got some clients who have been clients of Winnunga and want to continue going there. It just makes the casework a little more comprehensive.

MS COLLINS: And does Gugan fit in there somewhere too?

Ms Mitcherson: Gugan visits the AMC on a weekly basis, I think it is. In terms of visits, we are looking to explore Gugan as well, absolutely.

The other thing I will foreshadow—and I only discussed it with the community-based service staff this week—is this: while we are reviewing community-based corrections, we are very aware that we have young clients who may have a community order, both Indigenous young men and non-Indigenous young men, and who may not have got that next step to a custodial order. We are looking at different intervention strategies for a young offender sort of unit within community-based corrections, focusing on education and probably employment as well. So I am a bit excited about that, but it is only in the talking stages at the moment.

MR HODGES: Bernadette, just on the Northside thing you were talking about, I have had very little involvement with it, but from what I have seen, the involvement I have seen and from what I have heard, congratulations need to be extended, because it is a very well-run place out there, that north Belconnen unit. I have been out there with the police when you get everyone in, the community members coming in. It is a pity we do not have a lot more marked out around the ACT.

Ms Mitcherson: I have only been here for six or seven months, but I am doing a series of visits out to the community organisation. I did spend half a day there and went out on the road, so to speak, and met with staff and a lot of clients. It was very ATSIEB—13-12-11 67 Justice and Community Safety Directorate busy. Admittedly, it was school holidays, but there were children everywhere, Indigenous and non-Indigenous, and there were clients everywhere. It was quite good in that regard.

MR HODGES: You are not from ACT? You are not within the—

Ms Mitcherson: I am from across the border, New South Wales.

MR HODGES: We will not hold that against you.

Ms Mitcherson: Thank you.

MS COLLINS: I think it is important that you include our key Indigenous organisations. I know that Northside does not have any Indigenous workers there and I just want to make sure that our other key organisations around the community, Indigenous organisations, are included as part of the outputs.

Ms Mitcherson: I could not agree with you more. I have visited Winnunga and I will get out to the rest of them. We had a new superintendant start at the AMC last week, so we have been juggling a couple of jobs. It is my intention to get out to all the groups. We are particularly aware that our clients go for services, which includes—

MS BROWN: Di, did you just say Northside Community Services has not got any Indigenous employees?

MS COLLINS: That was my understanding but if anyone knows, they can—

MS BROWN: No, I do not know of any. How do they—

MS COLLINS: They provide programs for our Indigenous community, or a program that—

MS BROWN: Do they get advice from the Aboriginal organisations?

MS COLLINS: I am not sure.

Mr Goggs: They work in partnership with a number of organisations.

MS BROWN: Does that include Gugan? Who would have the most experience working with the only Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander youth centre in the ACT?

Mr Goggs: It is not specifically youth. They do family support stuff.

MS BROWN: So does Gugan, through the youth, they do family support too.

MS COLLINS: On another note, we attended the NAIDOC celebrations last year.

Ms Mitcherson: You did. Thank you for coming along.

MS COLLINS: Yes, it was fantastic, having opportunities where the elected body can come in and meet with the advisers as well as our Indigenous mob, as well as ATSIEB—13-12-11 68 Justice and Community Safety Directorate sharing some of the information on good occasions, or happy occasions, celebrating rather than the not-so-good ones. That is an important activity.

Ms Mitcherson: I could not agree with you more, and you are absolutely on the invitation list. I was really pleased that you did come to our NAIDOC celebrations, which was based around family. And that is a theme that I want to continue raising, family. I thought it worked really well, both for men and women together. On that day, fortunately we had young men who would normally not associate together but who had signed an integration agreement for the day, and they did mix together without an issue. It actually went really well, and they enjoyed it as well. And the feedback from families was very good.

MS COLLINS: Let us hope it can grow outside.

MR HODGES: And the invitation is also extended to you to come to the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander events and functions as well.

Ms Mitcherson: Thank you very much. I have attended a couple of events. Winnunga recently had an open day, which I attended as well. Thank you.

THE CHAIR: What was the other we were talking about, Victims Support? John, you are looking after Victims Support, are you?

Mr Hinchey: Yes.

THE CHAIR: When we were talking with the Legal Aid Office we heard a bit about Victims Support. Can you explain what is available for victims in general but more specifically for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander victims?

Mr Hinchey: In general, Victims Support delivers a victims service scheme, which is the government-funded scheme to help victims of crime recover from the harm that has been done to them. That is in the form of counselling or other services that can help victims. We also provide what we call advocacy services. So we help victims access services by advocating for them, by speaking up for them, by liaising with other agencies and helping them get access to their rights. Does that describe it in general service terms?

THE CHAIR: Yes, it does in general terms. One of the things that were mentioned— and you might have heard me mention it earlier—was legal representation for victims. And we find that for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander victims, it is quite often fairly difficult to get that type of legal representation, as opposed to perhaps a perpetrator who is into the system and is processed fairly quickly. Part of the process is getting them representation before they actually go to the courts. But it is a bit different for a victim.

Mr Hinchey: One of the battles in representing victims is getting their voice heard in the system, particularly Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander victims. So we work closely with the Women’s Legal Centre to provide legal advice to victims of crime. We also assist them make application for financial assistance. There is a small amount of money set aside to pay solicitors to help victims access that service, but we would try to help victims beyond what that would pay for. ATSIEB—13-12-11 69 Justice and Community Safety Directorate Participation in the justice system is a challenge for any victim of crime. The challenge for us is to try to broaden the access of our services to victims. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people only represent three per cent of our total client base and that is a pretty significant underrepresentation. I think that we need to do things differently to provide our service to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

We have talked of an outreach service but we are really stuck in the office, because we have got a lot of cases per caseworker as it is. We have come to an arrangement with Relationships Australia. They currently are assisting Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people undertake a graduate counselling course, a diploma. Aunty Betty works there.

THE CHAIR: Yes, that is right.

Mr Hinchey: So we think that if we can use those Aboriginal counsellors, that will improve access to our service. We signed off an MOU this week, with the help of the directorate, which provided us with the funds to do this, which I am thankful for. So people can go to those counsellors directly. And I think we will see an improvement in that way.

THE CHAIR: How do you promote those achievements like what Aunty Betty has done?

Mr Hinchey: We need to get out more. I need to go to Gugan—I have conversations with Kim—and I will be going to see Julie at Winnunga, but I need to get out more, be seen at events and tell people that this is available.

THE CHAIR: Yes. Can I be a little bit more specific? How do we value Aunty Betty’s achievement and promote such achievements? You have outlets and you have promotions of your programs. Ros has mentioned even workshops. We value those people who achieve those things, often under very difficult circumstances. Most of us would be aware of Aunty Betty’s circumstances, yet she has managed to achieve something remarkable and we want to recognise and acknowledge that. We talked earlier about how we get people into the services and into that area. We know there are many victims. There is no-one better to tell those stories and demonstrate change than the victims that have had a realisation and change in life. I will just leave that one with you as something you might contemplate during the development of your program—promoting the success of your program and promoting the success of the individuals that are in that program, particularly for our mob anyway.

Mr Hinchey: One of the messages I think we need to get across to the community is that you do not need to report a crime to police to be eligible for services from Victim Support ACT. If we could get that message across and we can do a better job in getting that message across, we will see a lot more people coming to speak to us. We will treat that with the utmost confidence, because we know the risks that accrue to people in the community who report to police at times. That is an important message and, once we get this up and running, that message will get across, that people can come and get help without compromising their family members or themselves.

Ms Mitcherson: Can I just add to that? John and I have also had some discussions ATSIEB—13-12-11 70 Justice and Community Safety Directorate about women in custody who are often victims as well. We are looking at a program of education and information about accessing victim support. I am also foreshadowing a program for women next year called out of the dark. It is for Indigenous and non- Indigenous women but it is about being a victim and how to get yourself out of that, about self-esteem. We are aware that people in custody, women particularly, are also victims and we are in discussions about how to work on that.

THE CHAIR: I guess that that leads me into a data question. In a sense where we see rising data, as I said earlier, it may mean that we are getting good at the process and getting good at getting people into the system, but in terms of data and the reporting of these sorts of things, particularly by victims and maybe even in child abuse or abuse situations, it involves people becoming brave enough to actually go forward and make a report. We understand that they are taking that very brave step to do something about it. They might go to Victim Support and say, “What do I do about this now?” That is where the advocacy stuff comes in. So if it then goes to reporting to police, there is another step that flows on to police. That is the sort of perspective that we want to get on this so that at the end there are some good things that come through: they get access to programs and access to other things. That is really good.

I believe we had an invitation, an appointment, to go and visit AMC. We would like to—

Ms Mitcherson: We would love you to come out. That would be great.

THE CHAIR: revisit that and see if we can get a date early in the new year.

Ms Mitcherson: That would be fantastic.

THE CHAIR: Thank you for that.

MS BROWN: I have a question about the overdose of an Aboriginal person in AMC. I think it was methadone. What is happening with the drug problem in AMC? Are any steps being taken? I understand this young fellow nearly died. From what I read in the papers, he got a dose of methadone and then another fellow got a dose but he did not swallow it; he spat it back in a cup and gave it to the first fellow. Is this correct?

Ms Mitcherson: It is kind of correct, but can we just discuss in the broad without breaching the privacy of the particular guys involved?

MS BROWN: What I am talking about was in a newspaper, so I am not breaching any privacy.

Ms Mitcherson: No, for me; I am talking that way. Certainly there was a young man in custody, whom I have actually known for a long time, unfortunately, who was diverting methadone. I am not sure if you have heard of that before. What often happens is that some people have very significant drug-seeking behaviour. The methadone is a very syrupy substance with a lot of sugar in it, very easy to divert, so this particular young man, who has been doing that for a long time, was able to regurgitate an amount of methadone and store that without anyone knowing. It is easy; even with observations it can be done, even half an hour after.

ATSIEB—13-12-11 71 Justice and Community Safety Directorate That is one thing that happened. In terms of that, Health have changed the formula for the methadone we now use to a water-based methadone called biodone. I can say with experience from the government that is very hard, almost impossible, to divert the water-based methadone. So that was a good outcome of that.

We did not know he was diverting. The young man who took the overdose came into custody, I think on a Friday, had been on methadone in the community and was put on a maintenance dose of methadone. That is an issue for Health, not for us. We were not aware, but he certainly indicated later, that he had also been topping up what was in the fridge, and that is what happened, in a nutshell.

MS BROWN: But I have heard there are other drugs in there too?

Ms Mitcherson: In the jail?

MS BROWN: Illegal drugs, yes. Weren’t they saying it was so bad that they are putting syringe bins in the AMC?

Ms Mitcherson: No. I am not aware about that. All jails in all jurisdictions struggle with keeping out contraband, which can be illegal drugs; it can also be prescription drugs. We have a number of methods to do that and we are quite successful. Having worked in a number of jails, I can say that we do it pretty well. But if I said we could keep out 100 per cent I would be talking to you through rose-coloured glasses.

MS BROWN: That was not the question. I did not know it was 100 per cent. What I am asking is: what are you doing to try and lessen the impact of drugs, legal and illegal, in the AMC?

Ms Mitcherson: We have a number of methods. All visitors are screened as they come through. We have a canine unit. We have a system of an eye scanner; you might be a visitor one day and will be scanned with what is like a little tape thing. We also listen to phone calls. All the phone calls at the AMC are controlled. We record them, and quite often we pick up information about drops that are going to be made. We actually often catch things out in the car park or beforehand. So we are doing a lot of things to try and stop drugs coming in.

We do not want to become so draconian that people do not have access to their families. To have everyone on visits without physical contact is not a good way to run the centre. We accept that there is a bit of risk involved in allowing contact with families, but really it is only a small percentage who engage in this behaviour and we would not want the whole jail population to be put in a draconian circumstance for that. So we are doing our best to try and keep drugs out.

We also try and engage people when they come into custody about their drug taking in terms of getting them ready to go on to programs. We have a therapeutic community. Currently there are 17 men in that program. Over the time it has been operating I think about one-third of the men who have graduated from that program have been Indigenous. So we have that community. We also have other programs called getting smart or first steps. NA come in and AA come in, so there are a number of different programs, depending on where that person may be, in terms of readiness to look at their addiction. ATSIEB—13-12-11 72 Justice and Community Safety Directorate MS COLLINS: Bernadette, can I ask about the Official Visitor?

Ms Mitcherson: Yes.

MS COLLINS: There is an Indigenous person

Ms Mitcherson: There is.

MS COLLINS: employed under that. I understand their role is to liaise with the inmates, talk about issues and just be a point of contact, seeing an Aboriginal face there.

Ms Mitcherson: Yes.

MS COLLINS: Is there an opportunity to identify some of the issues that have been raised that could inform us, as the elected body, around that?

Ms Mitcherson: I do not see any particular problem with that at all.

MS COLLINS: So how would you do that?

Ms Mitcherson: Through the Official Visitor. I am happy to do a summary or to meet regularly. I am happy to explore a number of options, to meet with you on a regular basis, to

THE CHAIR: One of the plans we will have from this is, as alluded to earlier, about coming back to report, another sort of briefing, and then of course you have got to respond to the report. We might put aside a good solid half-day or something to talk about a range of things in the directorate, so you can expect that sort of invitation through the year, and that way we can bring back

Ms Mitcherson: That would be great. We could actually invite the Official Visitor as well.

THE CHAIR: Yes, we can invite the visitor along and things like that.

MS BROWN: I have got one more question and that is regarding the ALOs. How many Aboriginal liaison officers do you have there?

Ms Mitcherson: We have one at the AMC.

MS BROWN: And that is Vicki Bradley?

Ms Mitcherson: It is.

MS BROWN: Do you have a male?

Ms Mitcherson: Vicki is currently not there at the moment. We have filled the contract with a male at the moment. We have a male Indigenous caseworker. That is a position I created three months ago and we recruited a male for that position. ATSIEB—13-12-11 73 Justice and Community Safety Directorate MS BROWN: So you have a specific female role and you have a specific male role?

Ms Mitcherson: The role is not specific to gender.

MS BROWN: Why not? That is so important for our community and I urge you to take on board the importance of a male to deal with the males and a female to deal with the females; otherwise it is totally culturally inappropriate. This is very serious business for us. It might not be in the non-Indigenous community but it is part of closing the gap: male deals with men’s business; female deals with female business.

Ms Mitcherson: I think that is very important. We are fortunate that our numbers of women in custody are very low. Today we have nine, with one Indigenous woman. Up until a few weeks ago we had no Indigenous women, which was fantastic. We have been down to three. We have a full-time women’s worker there who has two sessions a day with women in terms of looking at groups and that kind of stuff. They all have an individual case plan. I am very aware of women’s issues and women needing to speak to women and men needing to speak to men. Having said that, some men like to speak with a woman too, I have to say, if they engage well. But I am very aware of that and I think it is an absolutely important point.

MS BROWN: Thank you.

THE CHAIR: That is important for us. Whilst at different times there have been no women in custody, we look forward to decreasing the numbers of males in custody. We do not want to fill up AMC 12 months of the year.

Ms Mitcherson: I couldn’t agree with you more.

THE CHAIR: In contrast to that, we are seeing a lot more young women going into custody, into Bimberi and places like that, at any one time, which is of concern for me. I think in the report we talked about the numbers, or in our papers here there was a question about, the numbers of young people making the transition into AMC. I do not think you necessarily tracked those people—

Ms Mitcherson: We didn’t. We do now.

THE CHAIR: You do now; good.

Ms Mitcherson: A couple of months ago we changed to ask a question, which is not compulsory, about whether you have been in a juvenile facility prior to coming in. They do not have to answer. But quite often people want to engage and tell a story, and often they do. It may not be Bimberi; of course they may have been across the border in New South Wales. We have only been doing that for about six weeks, so we should have some good numbers for the next annual report and over time to give us a little bit of an indication about that.

THE CHAIR: I think it might be in the agreement in terms of that reporting framework coming back. That might be something you might touch on once or twice a year.

ATSIEB—13-12-11 74 Justice and Community Safety Directorate Ms Mitcherson: Absolutely.

THE CHAIR: That would be terrific. I am conscious of the time. Thanks for that, Bernadette and John.

Ms Mitcherson: My pleasure.

Mr Hinchey: Thanks, Rod.

THE CHAIR: We have still got courts and restorative justice. We have not heard from you, Stephen.

Mr Goggs: I am more than happy to help, chair, in relation to any of those matters. In fact, I may be able to clarify something. Roslyn, you mentioned syringe bins. You may have been referring to the government’s exploration of a needle and syringe program. That is obviously something that is still under consultation. It is a matter that is being progressed by the Health Directorate. I am happy to help you in any other way.

THE CHAIR: Thank you. Do the courts take in circle sentencing as well?

Ms Leigh: No.

Ms Field: We have placed those two together administratively. We think we get more benefit that way.

MR CHURCH: Can you just talk us through the data for the restorative justice project? We only received this last night, so it is a bit hard to digest.

Ms Lowrey: I am not sure what you have got compared to what I have got.

MR CHURCH: If you could just talk us through the initiatives between yourselves and the AFP.

Ms Lowrey: I can talk about the initiative for the AFP.

Ms Field: Dymphna is probably the best person to explain the initiative with ACT Policing because she spearheaded it.

Ms Lowrey: In May this year the restorative justice unit, having recognised that we have fairly low numbers of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander youth actually being referred to restorative justice and then obviously taking up the option of doing restorative justice—it is voluntary—approached the ACT police to ask them to refer every eligible Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander young person. Under the Crimes (Restorative Justice) Act, an offence has to be eligible to be referred to restorative justice. “Eligible offences” is the language used.

We commenced a six-month trial in May. We received our first referral, I think, on 25 May. We provided some information sessions to ACT Policing on how to make a referral and what sorts of offences and cases we would be able to accept under the act. During the six-month period we received 23 referrals from ACT Policing comprising ATSIEB—13-12-11 75 Justice and Community Safety Directorate 20 individual people. There were a couple of people that were referred more than once.

That compared to 12 referrals that were received in the same period in 2010. It was quite a significant increase. Of the 20 that went through a conference, 12 matters were referred by the police as a diversion, meaning that the person was not charged with an offence. The restorative justice conference was a diversion away from the criminal justice system. Another 11 of those matters were also referred to us in conjunction with charges, meaning the matter did go to court as well.

Nine matters went to conference, compared to five for the same period the year before. At the time of preparing this, there were five matters that were in the assessment and conference preparation phase. Nine matters were assessed as unsuitable for reasons that are listed here. Do you want me to go through those reasons?

MR CHURCH: We have got the reasons here.

Ms Lowrey: Of the nine conferences held, all resulted in what we call a restorative justice agreement. Part of restorative justice is to give the victims a voice in what they need to move on from a crime. So a young person, with agreement from all parties, agrees to do something to repair that harm, whether it be symbolic in terms of apologies and things or material reparation or agreeing to do programs or courses that might assist them not to come into contact with police again.

All of those conferences resulted in agreements. For Indigenous youth, the compliance rate for those agreements was 100 per cent, which we have not seen before in restorative justice. That was a really promising result. The trial concluded at the end of November. We have written a summary of the outcomes to ACT police recommending that we continue operating like that as a matter of policy with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander youth.

MR CHURCH: Do you have any age breakdown of the individuals that were referred?

Ms Lowrey: No, I do not. I could certainly find that for you. I will take that on notice and provide that feedback to you.

MR HODGES: Is that male or female, generally?

Ms Lowrey: I think generally it is always males more, but there are a number of young women that have been referred during the trial that I know of. I think the numbers are generally more young men than young women.

Ms Field: We can get you those figures.

MS COLLINS: The training with the AFP in terms of when they should refer people to restorative justice—was that just one-off training? The police change all the time and—

Ms Lowrey: We have a commitment with the AFP to provide regular training about ATSIEB—13-12-11 76 Justice and Community Safety Directorate restorative justice. We generally get into each new recruit class. For the trial we did, I think there were about 11 people in the training that I ran initially. That was with a lot of people from crime prevention and a lot of the sergeants from each of the stations. Further training was done by another colleague. I think that was, again, people from the stations around the city. There has not been a new recruit training that we have been involved in since then. I think the last training that we did was in about June or July.

Ms Field: We find ACT Policing are generally very good at referring to restorative justice. I think they are our star performer, aren’t they?

Ms Lowrey: Yes. In the last financial year I think they referred 50 per cent of matters to restorative justice.

MR CHURCH: What was the response from ACT Policing around the extension of the initiative?

Ms Lowrey: There has not been a response to that yet. I think we only sent out the letter at the end of November.

MR CHURCH: You had 23 referrals. Do you have any targets that you want to work towards in the next 12 months, given that a guidance partner position has come on board?

Ms Lowrey: In terms of referrals?

MR CHURCH: In terms of referrals, individuals through conference and, probably more importantly, the matters that are assessed as unsuitable. They are the potential areas that the guidance partner could work towards addressing, particularly around the ones that have declined to be involved or could not be located.

Ms Lowrey: I will try and answer that in parts, Brendan. Referring entities, under the legislation, refer matters to restorative justice. It is up to the discretion of a referring entity to refer matters. We certainly promote restorative justice to the stakeholders that can refer matters to us. Going out and working with the police has been fantastic in that they have responded to referring more matters. We do not set a target as such. Participating in restorative justice is voluntary anyway. It is very difficult to set a target for a scheme when participation is voluntary, so we do not have a target as such.

This year we commenced a new position, the Indigenous guidance partner position, which started in the unit as recognition from the community and us as the justice agency that there was an underrepresentation of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander youth being referred given the over-representation of them in the criminal justice system.

The Indigenous guidance partner commenced in late September. His role primarily is to do outreach work. It is to go out to kids that have been referred—to their community and to where they are residing—and talk about their referral to restorative justice, to give an explanation of what restorative justice is, what the process involves, as well as the benefits, if you like, of participating in restorative justice. It is about ATSIEB—13-12-11 77 Justice and Community Safety Directorate trying to engage with that young person’s community as well.

It is about transporting young people to appointments in relation to their restorative justice referral and walking with them through what we call the suitability process. When a young person agrees to participate in a conference, we prepare all those who are going to come together through what we call suitability interviews. The guidance partner sits with the young person through that whole process—it could be a couple of interviews—and then supports the young person in a conference.

The aim of a conference is to get what we call a restorative justice agreement. The Indigenous guidance partner can also support the young person in fulfilling the terms of that agreement—whether it be picking them up and driving them to appointments or placements or actually sitting alongside them while they are doing a placement. The provision of the service is there to try and get them to fulfil the requirements of an agreement. An agreement has got to be something that is realistic and achievable. We try and set realistic targets for young people who are going to enter a restorative justice agreement.

THE CHAIR: So what are the anecdotal sorts of things of non-compliance?

Ms Lowrey: Probably a lack of support around being able to attend appointments or programs, reporting and things like that and support in writing letters of apology. Often a young person might agree to do that and walk out the door with their agreement and everything, but in fact there is nobody supporting them to sit down and start drafting it. That is quite a difficult thing for some young people to do. It is supporting them in that respect. Often victims want financial compensation. We would not sign a young person up to financial compensation if they could not do it, but that is often a consideration.

Ms Field: Sometimes it is not quite understanding what is expected.

Ms Lowrey: Yes. We try and put in as much detail as possible in restorative justice agreements and to be very clear. In a conference that I would convene, for example, you might ask the young person and their supporters three or four times whether or not that is something that they think that the young person can do.

THE CHAIR: When you explain that you are going to have realistic objectives in the agreement, is there an opportunity for those objectives to be reviewed once they fully understand what their obligations are?

Ms Lowrey: A young person does not have to sign an agreement straightaway. If there are any concerns about them not being able to fulfil the terms of an agreement they do not sign it and they do not have to sign it. We cannot make people sign agreements. Under the legislation there is provision for agreements to be amended, but that is generally if there has been a change of circumstances rather than a change of heart. Prior to a conference happening, our work is really to define and identify what it is a young person can or cannot do in terms of an agreement before we get to the point of signing them up. The legislation says agreements have got to be realistic and achievable and that is our bottom line.

THE CHAIR: I guess the question in my head is: how can this be realistic when I do ATSIEB—13-12-11 78 Justice and Community Safety Directorate not need to commit to anything anyway?

Ms Lowrey: The carrot at the end of the stick is that often a young person might be going through court as well. The impetus will be: “You undertake restorative justice. You are accountable for your behaviour towards this person. You have caused some harm to them. This is what they want in repairing that harm. The court may take that into consideration—and in fact generally does—in how they sentence you or dispose of your matter in the court setting.” For young people there is a motivating factor for them to participate if they have got a court matter. We want to put in the support to assist people to be accountable for what they have done and also build in factors in agreements that actually help them to undertake things that might assist them to not offend again. It is about trying to point them in a direction that will help them.

THE CHAIR: In terms of that young person understanding and being accountable, there is a link with the support that you recognise is required. There is very brief knowledge about restorative justice. There needs to be an understanding and an appreciation of the individual’s circumstances to get them into that position in the first place. The way you have just described it, it sounds like “You got into strife. You need to be held accountable for that. You need to understand what your responsibilities and obligations are.”

Ms Lowrey: Can I assure you that a lot of the process is about acknowledging where the young person is at and preparing that young person for an interaction with the victim and preparing a victim for where that young person is coming from.

THE CHAIR: I am talking more of the support—if they need other support services like counselling and some understanding of what the system is all about.

Ms Lowrey: We would make referrals. If it was not an outcome in an agreement but we recognised that a young person might need referrals or respond to being engaged with another service, we would certainly do that.

THE CHAIR: So how do you provide that support? If that young person comes from, let’s say, a dysfunctional family, it is not the responsibility of restorative justice to do that. It is about understanding what this individual needs to access these sorts of services. How do you facilitate a process for that individual to connect to those services so they have more peace of mind and can then start to give some commitment to an agreement or obligation?

Ms Field: Restorative justice is a process. A lot of the effort goes into things like the conference. There is a lot of work put in to understanding the young person and their needs. Because the kids who end up in that environment are usually connected to services already, quite often those services come in and they are part of the conference. It is really about dealing with the whole case. It is not just taking the young person out and doing one bit; it is quite holistic.

The Indigenous guidance partner is actually doing a great job so far. He is quite new but he is doing a great job. He is walking the person through the process. I think he has just done his first full one and he has walked the young person through the process. To get back to Brendan’s question, what we see happening with the Indigenous guidance partner is a closing of the gap between the attendance and take- ATSIEB—13-12-11 79 Justice and Community Safety Directorate up and compliance of young Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander—

MS BROWN: We need to see that on paper because—

Ms Field: Yes. They are actually part of our performance indicators for the branch.

MS BROWN: Could we have a copy of that so that we can see that you are closing the gap? You are actually the first one I have heard say that that is how you are closing the gap, out of all the directorates that have come along.

Ms Field: We were aware that we have quite a difference in compliance, referral rates and things like that. Dymphna’s area developed an access to services plan which actually addressed this issue, because we saw that we were not quite making the grade. The Indigenous guidance partner is part of that. So that is our initial approach to that and we will keep that under review.

MS COLLINS: Can I just ask about the other side of fence, in terms of the panel? Members of the community get to go on a panel for circle sentencing. I know they do offer some training but it is maybe only once a year. Why is that so? What about an opportunity for others to become involved in that and understand about how that works? What are our community panel members saying and how can they reinforce the message to those who go through this program?

Ms Lowrey: We were provided with funding this year to provide an accredited training program for elders and panel members who were interested in participating as panel members in circle. The directorate developed, in conjunction with the CIT Yurauna Centre, last year a package that was delivered by the Yurauna Centre for free. We ran the second program of that. The idea was that the training would be run annually; that we would put out an expression of interest annually to recruit members.

I think about 25 panel members have actually been through that training. Our pool of panel members sits at 22. That seems to be enough. People respond to a request to sit on an assessment and then a hearing, and if they are unavailable we move to the next person and so on. That training program was delivered by Yurauna Centre over three days during September and October, and we will run that annually every year.

Ms Field: We would be seeking to keep the membership up and to do the training once a year, to keep people trained.

MS COLLINS: What about the regularity of when the assessment is, and what did you say the next process is?

Ms Field: Panel members conduct assessments of people’s suitability to go before the Galambany court. Where a young person or an adult are assessed as suitable, those same panel members then attend the actual sentencing hearing of the defendant.

MS COLLINS: So the regularity of those are enough to keep up with the need that you have got at the moment?

Ms Lowrey: So far, yes.

ATSIEB—13-12-11 80 Justice and Community Safety Directorate MS COLLINS: If it increases then obviously you will need to—

Ms Lowrey: We will need to draw on a bigger pool, yes.

THE CHAIR: With that circle—this will probably lead in to the conversation around courts—is that a service that we provide to the Jervis Bay territory?

Ms Lowrey: No.

Ms Leigh: In terms of Jervis Bay territory, I do not know whether you have already had CMCD here.

THE CHAIR: Yes.

Ms Leigh: They have the lead responsibility in relation to that issue generally. You would be aware that there have been discussions with the commonwealth about a better way to deliver those services.

THE CHAIR: Historically we have provided a service in terms of a magistrate down in Jervis Bay?

Ms Leigh: That is right.

THE CHAIR: There is a young people’s circle I think at Nowra. I am not sure whether those people actually access that service.

Ms Leigh: I probably need to come back to you with that detail.

THE CHAIR: If not then would the adults that are charged down there and who have access to our Magistrates Court equally have access to our circle?

Ms Leigh: I would need to—

Ms Lowrey: Not at the moment.

THE CHAIR: Not at the moment, so there is an opportunity for you to explore that. Let us know what the implications are. There may be budgetary implications; there may be a number of things.

Ms Leigh: It is also the overlap between the services that New South Wales provides and the services the ACT provides. That is quite complicated. But we will come back to you on that.

THE CHAIR: Yes, we are aware of that one. In terms of the courts, you probably know that we are a bit alarmed at the statistics that go through the courts, particularly where people end up in an institution or in the programs. I want to get a bit of a sense from you about the sorts of crimes that people are involved in. There is a lot of breaking and entering and things like that. We might be able to help with communicating to people about education and access to programs—education, economic development, employment and all of those things. We want to be able to help to steer people and change some behaviours. This might come up in that justice ATSIEB—13-12-11 81 Justice and Community Safety Directorate reinvestment conversation.

Ms Leigh: In particular, the property crime prevention strategy is very much the vehicle for that intervention.

THE CHAIR: You get a lot of people going through the courts. It is a high number and we do not want to be seeing too many going through there. I do not think there is much else we can get out of the courts at the moment in terms of stats.

Ms Purvis: No, and you would be aware that we do not actually keep Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander stats at the courts. While it would be very good if we could, at the moment the systems are not in place to allow us to do that terribly well. We do rely on ACT Policing and Community Services to provide us with that information. Our systems are not set up to take it. We are doing some work at the moment around a feasibility study to replace our systems, so that is part of that work. We will have a look at how we can include those.

THE CHAIR: What is your time frame for that feasibility?

Ms Purvis: The feasibility is taking place right now. The budget funding was provided this year to do that. So by the end of this financial year we will have details on whether it is feasible to replace the system, what we can replace it with, what is happening in the rest of Australia and what other people are doing around their case management systems in the courts.

THE CHAIR: Are there any activities around the rest of the country?

Ms Purvis: Yes, lots.

THE CHAIR: So they are recording some of the information?

Ms Purvis: Yes. It varies across the states. I understand in the statistics that the Bureau of Statistics collects at the moment, four of the jurisdictions provide Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander statistics, in terms of courts, and they are reported publicly. The other states and territories do not have the capability of doing that.

THE CHAIR: A comment in terms of the COAG framework and the overcoming disadvantage report is that quite often ABS looks at our statistics and says, “It’s a fairly small jurisdiction and it’s hardly worth reporting on,” or that you cannot really see it in the ODR. But for us it is critical. There is a great opportunity, we believe, to have a look at that and have the baseline of the data so that we can work towards something. There are some good lessons to be learned from that; in particular through partnerships and access to programs.

We have been very strong from the inception of this elected body that our local data is really important to us. That includes the demographics of the ACT, where our people are and where access to services is. We understand that there are some broader issues in terms of some of our legal services and also some of our other services.

Ms Field: The statistics that we do have are what we provide in the quarterly criminal ATSIEB—13-12-11 82 Justice and Community Safety Directorate justice statistical profile. We are happy to work with you to—

THE CHAIR: That would be terrific.

MR HODGES: That would be terrific because, just going back to restorative justice and what you mentioned about circle sentencing, we have got these pretty good programs like restorative justice and the circle sentencing court. What impact does that have on our people? Do you have stats on whether, out of the 23 who have come through the referrals to restorative justice, they have reoffended? With those that have gone through the circle sentencing court over the past couple of years, has there ever been an evaluation or any stats taken?

Ms Field: I might start with restorative justice, if that is all right.

MR HODGES: You can start wherever you like.

Ms Field: With restorative justice, the issue on measuring recidivism is that you need to take a group that have not been through restorative justice and compare them. So you need to do something statistical. To get a result that means something, you need to have a group that has not been through restorative justice. So we are looking at how we can do that, but that is quite complicated for a very small unit.

I think somebody mentioned to me this morning that the international evidence is that people who do go through restorative justice instead of just going through a straight court system live longer and have better life outcomes. So that is a recent international report.

With circle sentencing, the things we have been doing are around moving the circle court coordinator to the restorative justice unit and about getting appropriate payments for panel members and appropriate training. All of that is about circle court strengthening. We got someone to look at the circle court and do an evaluation and suggest ways we could strengthen that. We have been doing those. With the things that are coming up, Brendan has been involved in a community engagement process to talk to the community about how they feel about the circle.

MR CHURCH: A consultation report.

MR HODGES: Is that the one you and I have done?

MR CHURCH: Parts of it.

Ms Field: Sorry, you have been doing?

MR CHURCH: No. Benny attended a session.

Ms Field: So we would be looking to feed that back in. We also undertook last year to have either a half-day or a whole-day session on circle to talk to people about how that is going. Eventually we probably should get some sort of evaluation done of circle. I guess the issue—

MR HODGES: You need to do a number of these things. ATSIEB—13-12-11 83 Justice and Community Safety Directorate Ms Field: Yes.

MR HODGES: So forget about the numbers at this stage. Just from your own personal look at what has happened out of the 23 and from the circle sentencing, what are some of the changes that you have seen?

Ms Lowrey: Measuring recidivism is a highly technical and very difficult task to do. I have just had a long conversation with a person from the Institute of Criminology about undertaking a recidivism study and she warned me against doing what I was trying to do at that point.

The primary objects of the restorative justice act are about meeting the needs of victims of crime and providing an opportunity for people to take responsibility for their behaviour. So it is not directly linked to reducing recidivism. If it did, we would be overworked. Obviously a lot more needs to happen in these young people’s lives to really turn their lives around, apart from restorative justice intervention. It provides an opportunity for them to move away from further formal involvement in the criminal justice system—so entering the courts and then being put on a supervision order with youth justice or corrections and all of those interventions that entrench them in those systems quite often. There are obviously people that need to be there for reasons. It is about providing an alternative way of dealing with the crime that they are doing and the personal harm that they are causing other people in doing that crime.

MS BROWN: You were talking about this great job that you are doing, and I do agree that it is diverting them away from the courts, but there have been complaints from community that Corrective Services workers are not following up with work that they are supposed to do with certain people that have gone through circle sentencing and then they are supposed to be supported in different things socially—go to workshops and things like that, to better themselves. I have had a few people come up and say that once they have gone through the circle or the court, “Don’t rely on Corrective Services because they’re not turning up to do their jobs,” the ordinary workers, parole and—

Ms Lowrey: I am not from Corrective Services but I can answer that in part. The directorate, as Julie said, undertook to develop this strengthening paper to further strengthen and embed processes and practices with the circle court. The AJC, in partnership with the Galambany court, did some consultation with community members around that. Brendan is still in the process of writing up that report and sending it back to us, but we are aware that there are some key themes; one of them being that the process of circle court falls down at that post-sentence point.

Corrective Services have a mandate to supervise that person on that order that the court has made and those conditions, but then there are a whole host of other things that go on for a person, apart from that court order, that they need support in undertaking. We have had some recent discussions with the AJC about how we might better support people who have gone through the circle in post-sentence terms. I am getting the wind-up from Rod.

THE CHAIR: I will wind it up. Thanks for this. There is a lot of information there. I think we learnt earlier today from education—and it might be worth thinking about— ATSIEB—13-12-11 84 Justice and Community Safety Directorate how education track people and keep a relationship and a connection with people when they make a transition from within schools. They actually come back and share whether they have had a good experience or not. It may be, in terms of recidivism research, that a good experience may get support and actually get support from the department or whoever it is. It might be useful.

Certainly in a smaller jurisdiction the opportunities create themselves for us to have more of a conversation, build relationships and then look for positive things to come from whatever we do, whether it is collecting statistics or whatever. We want to be able to say to a young person, “Your experience from being in the system and coming out and changing your whole life is the experience that we want you to share with other people.” That is the sort of thing that we would like in recidivism research—

MS LOWERY: And can I very briefly say that the Indigenous guidance partner worked with the young person and went to a conference the other day. Part of his outcome agreement is to go with the Indigenous guidance partner and do presentations to community and justice agencies about his experience of restorative justice and so on. Those are the sorts of things that—

THE CHAIR: That is good. Thank you very much everybody and those that did not get to come down here and have a chat with us. Thanks very much, Kathy, to your directorate. There are some badges here of the elected body for people if they want some.

Meeting adjourned from 3.10 to 3.19 pm.

ATSIEB—13-12-11 85 Justice and Community Safety Directorate Territory and Municipal Services Directorate Byles, Mr Gary, Director-General Morrell, Ms Sue, Deputy Director-General Elliott, Mr Tom, Executive Director, Transport and Infrastructure Steward, Ms Fay, Executive Director, Parks and City Services Division Perram, Mr Phillip, Executive Director, Business Enterprise Division Polinelli, Mr Anthony, Director, Governance, and Chief Internal Auditor Roncon, Mr James, Director, Roads and Transport Division Gill, Mr Tony, Director, Roads and Transport Division Little, Ms Vanessa, Director, Libraries ACT, Parks and City Services Division Blackburn, Ms Fiona, Community Liaison Officer, Libraries ACT, Parks and City Services Division Gannon, Ms Melina, Manager, Liaison and Coordination, Human Resources, Directorate Services Kalogeropoulos, Mr Nick, Director, Finance Brown, Mr Adrian, Aboriginal Liaison Officer Divorty, Ms Jill, Executive Director, Shared Services, Treasury Directorate Kelley, Ms Rebecca, Deputy Director, Tourism, Events and Sport Division, Sport and Recreation Services, Economic Development Directorate

THE CHAIR: Hello everybody.

Mr Byles: My officials, including my deputy, Sue Morrell, are here. We are delighted to be at the hearing and are here to answer any questions you may have.

THE CHAIR: Thank you. What I will do is, I guess, highlight some generic questions which hopefully the director will take away and provide us with information on. There will probably be some issues that you could come in and brief us on. We have said to other directors to do so by the end of February. It does not need to be as big as your annual report but just something that comes out of this. You can prepare a response for questions and so on during the hearing.

There are about four generic questions that we will be asking that you might take on board. The first one is about the elected body being made aware of particular events and engagements or consultation processes that you might have or have got planned that are likely to impact on Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, but more generally, we would be interested in the consultation or events and stuff that involve all Canberrans. We would like to be kept informed of those sorts of things. How would you keep the elected body informed about some of those things?

Mr Byles: I will take that on notice and look at the process, but I see that as a relatively simple process. It can be as simple as me and my officials meeting with Ms Brown as a regular occurrence. It could be as simple as when events are developing, particularly short notice events, calling you or your appointed representative, or a more formal mechanism whereby we include you on some sort of event calendar. Can I take on notice to look at the best process? It could be a combination of those plus other options. But certainly that is a simple request and one we will be able to answer.

THE CHAIR: Part of the way that we are looking at it is that we are developing some

ATSIEB—13-12-11 86 Territory and Municipal Services Directorate protocols. And they will hopefully be with you within the next couple of months, at least by our first meeting in 2012. We do have some cards there in front of you. The main way of contacting us is through the secretariat and so on. That will be explained more in our set of protocols that we are proposing.

The second question would be more generic, about the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander employment strategy and the numbers and how is the directorate doing that, retention, career pathways and those sorts of things. And I will skip through these, because we will provide these to you at some stage. I know there are employment or training opportunities. We have seen that in your annual report. But we are just wanting to keep abreast of those things.

The third one is for each directorate. You are familiar with the respect, equity and diversity plan?

Mr Byles: Yes.

THE CHAIR: And what we are really interested in there is what has been progressed in your directorate that demonstrates change within the workplace. It is very critical for us to understand that there are some strategies. You might have a reconciliation action plan, you might have some other events, cultural awareness training or competency training, whatever you want to call it. But those are the sorts of things that we would like.

The last one, which is really important for us, as we have explained to other directorates, is what areas of your directorate’s policies and programs have made significant differences for the benefit of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander families and individuals.

They are the four key ones which we will provide to you and when you do your response to the hearings, you can incorporate that in there or come back to us at some time so that you can cover us on those.

Mr Byles: Sure. Certainly on two of those issues about the retention and employment strategy, you may be aware there is a new whole-of-government employment strategy 2011, starting this year of course. And it has a set of key deliverables and outcomes required. My HR team are aware of that. My senior leadership team, my executive leadership team, will be discussing how we meet those deliverables. So we are very conscious of that.

On the second point about the RED framework, obviously that is something that the directorate takes very seriously. I have appointed an executive sponsor for the RED framework, Mr Phillip Perram, who is with us here today. And if you care to address that issue in any detail, then Phillip will be happy to join us at the table and explain what we have achieved within the directorate.

THE CHAIR: That might be good. We can do that.

Mr Byles: Would you like to do that now?

ATSIEB—13-12-11 87 Territory and Municipal Services Directorate THE CHAIR: We do not have a lot of questions. It is more just getting an understanding of what your directorate is doing. Have there been any changes to your directorate since the Hawke review?

Mr Byles: Yes, there have. There are structural changes of course. We lost a significant amount of people, including Shared Services that are now with Treasury. Sport and recreation, which had some Indigenous employees, have moved to the Economic Development Directorate. And there were some other changes as well.

But in terms of the RED framework and the amount of what I call initiatives that we have implemented within the directorate, you would be aware—you may not be aware —we have got the Aboriginal and Torres Strait interest group that we run. Phillip will be able to talk about that and about the Murumbung Yurung Murra group.

We have got a revised and brand new code of conduct which we have implemented. And in terms of cultural learning, part of the induction program for all our new employees is to undergo cultural awareness training. That is done in part by a video. There is, in the booklet I have handed out, the leaflets we hand out. And that forms part of the induction training package.

There are many other things of course. I should not forget my personal commitment to making sure that we abide by the RED framework, which is how any organisation should be, by the appointment of an Aboriginal liaison officer in Mr Adrian Brown. Adrian is with us here today should you care to talk to him and he will be able to tell you that we meet on a regular basis to discuss issues of concern to him.

MS BROWN: Excuse me, Gary, you said you had a revised code of conduct.

Mr Byles: Yes.

MS BROWN: Do you have a copy of it?

Mr Byles: Not here, but I am happy to provide a copy of that.

MS BROWN: Thank you.

Mr Byles: And we can certainly do that.

MS BROWN: And that is a code of conduct for workers in TAMS?

Mr Byles: It is for everyone in TAMS. I was pleased to launch that, I guess about six or eight months ago perhaps.

THE CHAIR: Is that on your website?

Mr Byles: It is on the website but we can get you a hard copy.

Ms Morrell: It is important to note too that that may change slightly, because we are doing a whole-of-government code of conduct. We will make sure that they both connect.

ATSIEB—13-12-11 88 Territory and Municipal Services Directorate MS BROWN: Thank you.

THE CHAIR: That might fit in with our conversation around protocols as well.

Mr Byles: Yes, absolutely. We can certainly get you a copy of that. I might ask, Mr Chair, with your permission, Mr Perram to join us if you have specific questions about RED. Phillip is very active in both working with the interest group and also as the executive sponsor for the RED framework and he can provide the detail that you are seeking.

THE CHAIR: Going back to that question about what has been progressed to demonstrate change in the workplace, if you can highlight some of those changes.

Mr Perram: Certainly. I am the executive sponsor of red as well as the Executive Director of Business Enterprises with TAMS. I think the RED framework has brought about a fairly significant change in TAMS, particularly the liaison of people. I will just cite one example of that. And that example is that in every induction now we have a welcome to country. The welcome to country was an initiative that came out of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander interest group saying, “We have people that have come from other parts of Australia that do not feel welcome until a formal welcome to country has been given by the Ngunnawal.” We are inviting elders and appropriate people to that welcome. That has made a fairly significant difference, I think, to the carriage of non-community people into the community here. I think that that is one of the strong things that have happened in recent times.

How we have got the organisation structured at this side is that I am the executive sponsor. I have support out of the HR area. Underneath that area there are contact officers from every part of TAMS which have a liaison role with people. Anyone can go to them to seek information on respect, equity or diversity. And they have direct access to me or to the HR team so that we can get information to them. That also serves as our diversity committee. The chair of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander interest group is a member of that and can sit on that.

The next level down is the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander interest group and Adrian has agreed to be chair of that, as opposed to me, which I welcome greatly. Our next meeting is actually on this Friday. We meet on a bi-monthly cycle. We are talking about issues. One of the issues we hope to address this Friday is the liaison between what Murumbung Yurung Murra does and what the interest group does and how do we make sure we are not duplicating and going in different directions. And it is that style of debate, I think, that is adding to our discussions.

One of the other discussions we are talking about is exactly the issue you raised earlier, the employment strategy and how we get people from the community back into TAMS and the right people to the right jobs so that we have a nice mix of those jobs. So it is a good, healthy debate, I think, in that regard.

THE CHAIR: It sounds good. I commend you on the work that you do. It sounds excellent. Do the committees in that interest group have a connection or a line of sight with the other directorates about how they do their business or some comparison of

ATSIEB—13-12-11 89 Territory and Municipal Services Directorate best practice or whatever?

Mr Perram: It is not so much a line of sight. We do have representatives from ESD, one of the other directorates, that come to our interest group meetings simply because of location within the building. I would see merit in the future, particularly with the development of the whole-of-government policy, of that next level up, the interest group, right across the whole of the ACT government. I think that would be a healthy step forward so that we get that consistency right across all directorates.

THE CHAIR: That is very good. Thanks for that. Are there any other comments?

MS COLLINS: I just want to know again about the cultural competency training for staff within the directorate. Has that happened and if not, is it happening or—

Mr Perram: On the cultural training side of things, we obtained, through the interest group, three quotations last year in respect of a training program, an on country training program, and that was fairly expensive, to be quite honest, and our budget did not match that. We have gone back and we are working with Adrian particularly, through the interest group, on how we make this still happen but on a different level.

Probably the other area that we could talk about that I have not got the details on is the interest group and the orientation through the development of the trailer that has the information in it and that was used at Floriade and a few other areas there as a promotion. But I cannot give you that detail.

Mr Byles: Are you aware of the trailer that we have? It was Adrian’s initiative. It has been designed specifically to raise cultural awareness.

THE CHAIR: Could Adrian come up and tell us a little about it?

Mr Byles: Adrian, please join us and tell us about the trailer, the background to that and how that has been effective.

Mr Brown: The idea came about because we wanted to get Ngunnawal culture out to the wider public and to the schools. We realised that a trailer would help us dramatically, in the sense that we have a lot of tools that we carry around. We could put all the tools in that and get ourselves out there and expose ourselves a little more.

THE CHAIR: Okay. In terms of tools, what is in the trailer?

Mr Brown: Lots of Aboriginal artefacts—tools like that. We have a generator. We have tables and chairs, so we can put all that out. If we want to engage with elders or the community we can have a day out and say, “We are going to bring some different types of timber along and we can have a go at making a certain type of tool.” It is also good for the schools in the delivery to say, “This is what we are doing on Ngunnawal country.”

MR HODGES: So how does that tie in with cultural competency or cultural awareness?

ATSIEB—13-12-11 90 Territory and Municipal Services Directorate Mr Brown: I guess that is something that we are still working on, how we approach that. There a lot of questions to be asked there. I do not think that is a responsibility for us totally but for the ACT park staff. I can talk about Ngunnawal country but I do not think that any of our staff are trained to talk on Aboriginal culture as a whole so that when we do deliver we get that total respect of our whole people. Ours is about Ngunnawal country so—

THE CHAIR: Yes, I understand that. A point was raised in the last one where I think the police said there were some core principles about respect, protocols and knowledge, I guess, in understanding that there are some broad cultural differences and diversity. This is where this diversity plan comes into play. You are at least thinking of how this ties in with all of what we are doing here within the workplace. It is also about promoting respect for the local culture to the broader community, in your workplace as well as the schools that you visit and whatever. I guess the extension of that question is then where you take the trailer and you provide an educational sort of event; at Floriade—where else has it been? Has it been in schools?

Mr Brown: It has not been in schools as of yet. At this stage schools are a difficulty because if we embrace that now we do not have the resources to keep going and fulfilling that requirement.

THE CHAIR: Schools might.

Mr Byles: I must admit that Adrian and I have had this very discussion, along with Phillip. It is a work in progress, it is embryonic in the fact that it has only been this year that we have developed it; our greater plan is to broaden the awareness. You have mentioned some of the issues about schools. I have talked to Adrian about events such as the Multicultural Festival—places like that that would provide a good hook to raise the awareness of the message we are trying to send out. You have my commitment and support that we are going to embark on a continued phase of raising awareness in that space. We will explore over the next few months opportunities to achieve that.

Mr Perram: If I can give an example of that, Gary, Adrian and I were talking at our senior management forum about it—all the senior staff within TAMS having that trailer there and having Adrian say—

THE CHAIR: Okay. That is good stuff.

Mr Perram: “This is available as a resource for you on your days or your events.” We would not be able to do the show with that many people, but it says to them, “Here’s an opportunity to be able to promote in an appropriate venue and location.”

MS BROWN: I am really concerned about the cultural competency being too expensive. How expensive was it? Have you tried the Reid CIT, the Yurauna Centre, for cultural awareness workshops?

Mr Perram: We were working with Adrian and the recommendations coming from his team. The thoughts coming to us were that on country was far better experience than the short training from CIT. We are not eliminating that by any means, but we

ATSIEB—13-12-11 91 Territory and Municipal Services Directorate are trying to have a lot more wholesome experience, or fulsome experience, than a shorter training and awareness course.

MS BROWN: Why can’t it be a combination of both? They are going to be out there anyway and it seems to be robbing Peter to pay Paul. I think you are going to gain a wealth of information and knowledge by having the two together, running together. So how high is it? Was it CIT Yurauna Centre that gave you the quote?

Mr Perram: No, I think it was the individual groups, wasn’t it?

THE CHAIR: Consultancies, were they?

Mr Brown: Three individuals, yes—consultants.

MS BROWN: Three Aboriginal consultants, were they?

Mr Brown: Yes.

MS COLLINS: The on country program that you are looking at developing, Adrian: how long does it run for and what does it involve?

Mr Brown: The caring for Ngunnawal country project?

MS COLLINS: Yes.

Mr Brown: I am employed now till November next year as the caring for Ngunnawal country ranger. In that time frame we have got a few little things that have happened and next year we are looking at creating what we call our warriors, a young Ngunnawal people’s training package where we are going to take the young community out and give them all the skills they need to work on country. So it is a mentoring process that we are offering.

MS BROWN: I also want to take this opportunity to congratulate you and Murumbung Yurung Murra for the NAIDOC award that you won this year.

Mr Brown: Thank you very much.

MS BROWN: It is fantastic to receive recognition from other Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peers within the community and it is testament to the work that you are doing, that you take to heart and do personally, to encourage these young mob to come along.

Mr Brown: Thank you.

MR HODGES: I just want to ask you something, and I hope it is not a difficult one for you to respond to, because you are the Aboriginal liaison officer within this directorate. I will try and word it so I do not put you in. The question is: are there any Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander staff within this directorate that have some difficulties that this body here could assist with?

ATSIEB—13-12-11 92 Territory and Municipal Services Directorate Mr Brown: Not that I know of. I think there is a balance there in what is going on. We have had some trouble in the past but I think things have really smoothed themselves out and we are starting to go through a nice level platform now. I think things have really moved forward for us.

MR HODGES: What about recruitment and retention?

Mr Brown: I think we can improve that, honestly. I do believe that we can improve on the recruitment and retention.

Mr Byles: We can absolutely improve the retention and the recruitment. To that end I have asked my roads and public transport area to have a look at targeted recruitment where possible for Aboriginal bus drivers, for instance. I think there is work to be done in the ranger space as well, where we can, resources permitting. But can I just reiterate the fact that Adrian in his role as the Aboriginal liaison officer has direct access to me. He does not have to go through anybody; he comes and speaks to me, and he can come without an appointment to speak to me. We discuss those very issues you raise and then of course we more often than not share that with Phillip in his role and it goes down the line.

In terms of staffing numbers we need to get better. We currently run at 20 declared staff, 17 males and three female, which puts us at about 1.088 per cent. It is less than we would like. We are conscious of the deliverables for the Aboriginal employment strategy in the outer years and our aim is to pursue that goal.

MR HODGES: The reason why I was leading into those questions was that in the past, and it has probably improved by now, I have heard that whilst you took on a number of trainees and you had a certain number of employees in TAMS there was a slight lack of support for those people. I just want to know what sort of support mechanisms are in place for those people.

Mr Byles: Sure. Some of the groups that have been raised—the Aboriginal interest group, the Murumbung Yurung Murra group, Adrian in his role as the Aboriginal liaison officer—are new initiatives that we have created over the last couple of years. We have got the RED framework now that is clearly in there and, like anyone in the directorate in terms of support, if somebody feels they have a concern and that it is not being managed through the normal chain of command, they always have access to me. That is my commitment and I believe we have come up with some significant initiatives in the directorate. Of course I would be very happy, if you feel that that is still a concern, to talk off line with you about those issues.

MS COLLINS: It is also how we can support you, Adrian. That is a big responsibility, looking after Indigenous staff, dealing with issues and supporting execs to do their work in terms of having a workplace that is culturally appropriate. If there is any assistance or guidance that we can offer you within your position, by all means feel free to come to us.

Mr Perram: We appreciate that very much. Thanks.

Mr Byles: That is greatly appreciated, Ms Collins. Can I say that—maybe this time

ATSIEB—13-12-11 93 Territory and Municipal Services Directorate last year, maybe a little bit before—my goal was always to have a male and a female Aboriginal contact officer, but our staffing numbers and our experience levels have not allowed that. But that is a goal we are working towards.

MS BROWN: That is great, a male and a female.

THE CHAIR: That sounds good. What other areas in your directorate do you have? Do you have library services?

Mr Byles: We do have libraries and I have the director of libraries here, Vanessa Little, if you have got some library questions—

MR CHURCH: Can I ask Adrian one quick question. Is the young Ngunnawal project that you are looking at just for young Ngunnawal kids or is it for all young kids?

Mr Brown: We are going to look across the board, but we do realise that there are not enough Ngunnawal people getting opportunities to work on country so we hope that Ngunnawal people apply for this and that we can train them up and give them the skills to work on country.

MR HODGES: Just quickly before you go, TAMS is fortunate to have someone like Mr Brown to provide this trailer service. Is that service also provided to all the other directorates?

Mr Brown: Yes. I do not see why not.

Mr Byles: I think in broad terms, if our aim is to improve awareness, there is no reason why that could not happen. I will certainly look at those options, bearing in mind that, while Adrian and his team are doing that, I have got the normal duties to cover, so it is a matter of balancing it. But I am very aware of the desired outcome in this space.

THE CHAIR: You could job share with him maybe.

Mr Byles: We could perhaps charge the other directorates and help our budget situation!

THE CHAIR: Yes, absolutely. That sounds like a better proposition.

MR HODGES: You have got the consultants for the cultural awareness things all matched up and then you would be able to pay them.

Mr Byles: It sounds like a win-win all round, Mr Hodges. But, to be serious, the aim is to provide an awareness. It is not the financial side of things; it is to get the awareness out there.

THE CHAIR: All right. I think one of the important things that we mentioned earlier was about that change in the workplace. That cultural experience is a life changing sort of experience, we hope, that does not really cost a lot of money when you make a

ATSIEB—13-12-11 94 Territory and Municipal Services Directorate commitment to inform yourself and enhance your knowledge about Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander cultures, or any other cultures for that matter. That does not cost a lot of money. So we are encouraging that and I have sensed that through your program as well—

Mr Brown: Through our program the staff that we have on board do a really good job of sharing that culture and that knowledge with the rest of the staff. You can really see the buzz around the way people appreciate the work that we are doing. Before, there might have been a bit of a misunderstanding, but I think we are really creating a good pathway now and we are moving forward.

THE CHAIR: Yes. Gone are the days where you can go to a workshop and be spoken at. We have the cultural awareness but we do not actually have knowledge and experience about that culture, various cultures.

I am conscious of time, Gary, but we need to understand a little bit more of what else happens in your directorate, and once again congratulations on your acknowledgement. We are really proud of you. Keep up your good work.

Mr Brown: Thank you.

Mr Byles: And I would like to, if I may, thank Adrian. He joined us at the table at short notice. I think this is probably his first time at the table but I felt it important because he is our person on the ground and can tell us actually what is happening. So thank you, Adrian.

Mr Brown: Thank you, Gary.

Mr Byles: Libraries?

THE CHAIR: You have got libraries. You have got ACTION, have you?

Mr Byles: Yes. We have got ACTION, roads, public transport, of course parks and conservation in terms of the ranger aspect, city services, property group—I guess you have got the—

THE CHAIR: No, we do not have the whole list but we had just one—

Mr Byles: Libraries and ACTION—

THE CHAIR: Yes.

MR CHURCH: Who has got carriage of the mobility project?

Mr Byles: I will have to take that on notice, Mr Church, unless any of my staff can—

MR CHURCH: The Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander mobility project—the funding was injected through the last budget. Maurice Walker has taken the—

Ms Morrell: I think it is the Community Services Directorate. We will take it on

ATSIEB—13-12-11 95 Territory and Municipal Services Directorate notice and get back to you.

Mr Byles: It does not ring an immediate bell, but I am happy to take it on notice and, if it does, get back to you with a response.

THE CHAIR: All right. We had in one of our questions the current work to build Aboriginal and Torres Strait people engagement with libraries. I think Vanessa came to a meeting last year or earlier this year.

Mr Byles: She did, yes. That is right.

THE CHAIR: We just want to touch base and get a bit of an update on where we are at with your activities.

Mr Byles: Absolutely.

Ms Little: You would like an update?

THE CHAIR: Yes.

Ms Little: Okay. I have brought Fiona with me today. I am sure—or I hope—that you would all remember Fiona. Since we last met the library has moved into a structure where we have created a series of specialisations amongst our staff. Each one of our staff has a particular client group, if you like, that they are now working with in ways that are appropriate to each group to engage them more in using our services. Particularly in the case of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, it is to make sure that we are reflecting your culture correctly in our collections and in our services and programs.

Fiona has come to us from Alice Springs. She has a great deal of experience in working with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people and with programs. The engagement has commenced. Fiona has been to one of your meetings and has had lots of discussions, I understand, around people who are in the Alexander Maconochie Centre and how we might support those people. We have certainly made some changes to our collections and added material to our collections that you have suggested that we should have that best reflect your cultures. We are looking forward to a lot more engagement.

THE CHAIR: I think we met over at the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander institute of studies. I vaguely remember some of that conversation. We offered up some suggestions on how to attract Aboriginal and Torres Strait students and children, in particular, to use your services. I just wondered how that was going. Where we had the meeting it was like a centre of knowledge. What about some sort of relationship or connection between the library services and an institute like AIATSIS? How can that bolster and add value to your resources and collections to enhance the knowledge and understanding of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures across the country? I think it is a valuable resource there, even for exhibitions, as part of a partnership or relationship.

Ms Morrell: Perhaps I could hand over to Fiona because we have a very exciting

ATSIEB—13-12-11 96 Territory and Municipal Services Directorate exhibition coming to us next year.

Ms Blackburn: Going backwards, there is the In Living Memory exhibition that we are holding in collaboration with Archives ACT and the State Records Authority from New South Wales. That is being held at the Pacific library. I have had a discussion with Tasha Lamb in the archive at AIATSIS about the possibility of collaboration between AIATSIS and Libraries ACT around that exhibition. She has referred that to her director and we are waiting to see what can be developed.

As for the business of using AIATSIS as a resource for our own service development, Alana Garwood Hung is going to speak to the senior librarians in February next year around the protocols. Librarians at my level are going to visit AIATSIS also in February next year just to get a feel for what resources are available at AIATSIS. I have had really informal conversations with Rod Stroud about how we can work together around issues of collection development.

Ms Little: Can I also add that Adrian is coming to our all-staff meeting tomorrow. We cannot get his trailer into Woden library, but he is coming tomorrow to start the conversation with all of our staff around cultural awareness.

Ms Blackburn: People are really interested. Everyone who has asked me about it has said that they think it sounds really exciting.

THE CHAIR: We talked about opening up the library. We talked about the change in your opening times and so on. Has there been any invitation or promotion for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people to come through your doors? If you have done that, have you noticed any change? We talked earlier about demonstrated change within your workplace. This is your place of work, but it is also a place for the public. We just want to know whether Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people are using the services. We want to promote that. We talked earlier about closing the gap. Where else would you get some knowledge and understanding, numeracy and literacy-type things other than through your local library? We want our young people to access those services.

Ms Little: There have been very gentle movements towards all of those things. Clearly, sometimes we do not know when people walk through the door. We do not record who is coming in and what background they come from. Having said that, next year—2012—is the National Year of Reading. The sad fact is that 46 per cent of adult Australians do not have sufficient literacy to survive in our complex world. In Canberra it is 32 per cent of adult Canberrans.

Across the country, libraries, governments, corporations, book sellers, publishers, authors—you name it—have all come together to deliver this National Year of Reading. Clearly, we are working with Fiona to develop programs and activities next year that will encourage particularly young people to come in and use the library services and, where needed, to improve their literacy.

We are also working with the librarian at Alexander Maconochie around the same issue. Obviously there are some cross-connections there as well. So next year watch this space. It is a big year for us. There are lots and lots of activities happening. There

ATSIEB—13-12-11 97 Territory and Municipal Services Directorate is a big focus on literacy for the year. Because all of our librarians have different specialisations, we are asking each librarian or specialist to come back with a plan for working with their particular group over the year.

Ms Blackburn: As an example of working across those specialisations, in January the early childhood specialisation group are having a series of evening story times. We have had discussions about including a certain proportion of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander content in the stories for each session. People have also asked me questions like: “Is it appropriate to present that sort of material for non-Aboriginal Torres Strait Island people?” Part of the reason for the gently, gently approach is just to get our heads around what it means and the cultural awareness issues before we can confidently participate like that.

MS COLLINS: It is so important for those initiatives or programs that you are looking at developing to have some Indigenous input throughout the process, not just at the end.

Ms Little: That is why we are talking to you.

Ms Blackburn: There are two things that we would like to see, really. A core part of what we do is the inclusion of content in collections and programs. Some programs are presented by Aboriginal or Torres Strait Island people. The program for the In Living Memory exhibition includes readings and workshops by the Indigenous women’s rights group.

MS BROWN: I think too that it would be good to include Ngunnawal elders. We do have the United Ngunnawal Elders Council. I am the chairperson. That is why I am advocating for it. They have older stories to tell and they have more knowledge than the young ones. The elders are supported by the Office of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Affairs. They provide secretariat support. It would be a good thing to contact the elders council.

Ms Blackburn: I have spoken to Darryl Brooks about the possibility of it being involved in the in living memory program.

THE CHAIR: That was a good question, Ros. I was going to suggest—and I do not know whether we suggested it before—having an elder in residence at the library for maybe a couple of hours to talk about their culture. It might be a great opportunity to do that through the elders council.

Ms Blackburn: That sounds like a great idea.

MS BROWN: It is a great idea. Thanks, Rod.

THE CHAIR: When you have exhibitions, it is a matter of choice, but you want to invite people to have an experience—like we said earlier with Adrian’s stuff. Where there is an elder in residence, or the mere fact that Adrian’s trailer was there in the courtyard, there is a presence there and people might get interested and start to ask questions about the library. Then you can say, “Adrian will be here on Sunday.” It is about getting the experience. Exhibitions are fine. You do not share that experience

ATSIEB—13-12-11 98 Territory and Municipal Services Directorate with others until you sort of privately mingle with others. You see with children— they do this really well—that they sit there in awe when an older person is talking about cultural things.

Ms Little: As Fiona said, we are working towards mainstreaming that so that it is just part of our regular program that we have story telling from the local Ngunnawal and other things.

THE CHAIR: There are the education ambassadors through the Department of Education, Employment and Workplace Relations.

Ms Little: Did we write to you, Mr Chair, about the National Year of Reading?

THE CHAIR: I cannot recall. You may have. I will check with the secretariat. Yes, you did.

Ms Little: We were looking for you to be one of our ambassadors for the National Year of Reading.

THE CHAIR: Okay.

Ms Little: Is that an okay?

THE CHAIR: Yes.

Ms Little: Right.

THE CHAIR: I think I have said yes to that. As an ambassador on a federal level as well for education I am only too happy to have that for the ACT.

Ms Little: Great.

THE CHAIR: Thanks for that, Vanessa.

Mr Byles: Mr Chair, with your indulgence, I would like to thank Fiona again. Like Adrian, it is the first time she has been at the table. So thank you, Fiona.

THE CHAIR: We are keen to see some partnerships progress with Boomanulla and Gugan Gulwan as community organisations. Boomanulla in particular is a significant asset for the whole of the ACT but it has more of a cultural significance in the community base for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples. You may be aware that there have been some funding issues around Boomanulla. Our conversations have been with the federal government who provide some funding, but there are some other things. I am not sure what TAMS is able to consider. At least we can start to have some dialogue about what sorts of services can or cannot be provided to support a facility like that.

In terms of Gugan, we are interested in the relationships you might have there through young people having knowledge of these types of things and maybe supporting Adrian and so on. It is just connecting all of those things. We are just putting it on

ATSIEB—13-12-11 99 Territory and Municipal Services Directorate record that we would like to have some conversations or your thoughts on some partnerships or relationships with community organisations. I am sure you do that with others.

Mr Byles: I am very happy to discuss some of the issues you may be considering in that area. I remember discussing this very subject, I think, at the last hearings. I pursued that with the then DHCS and, in fact, the Australian Sports Commission in terms of trying to understand the background. Of course, that was not a TAMS responsibility, and it is no longer a TAMS responsibility directly. Having said that, I am more than happy to engage in terms of how we might be able to be an involved player in assisting the outcome there.

THE CHAIR: In terms of municipal services, what are the types of things that your directorate has responsibility for?

Mr Byles: We look after the city in terms of the cleanliness of the city, the mowing and the bus services. We have the Property Group and waste services. We have got cemeteries and roads, of course. Generally speaking, anything that you would probably associate with a council function we do.

MS BROWN: Gary, before we started this session I talked with you about the need for a bus service to go out past the Ngunnawal bush healing farm on Paddys River Road. Building is going to begin next year on the facility, so we need to be prepared. They will have an elders place out there for elders to stay with their family members who are having troubles and stuff like that, so there will be visitors. We really need to start planning something to be ready for that. Many Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders have transport issues, so I think we need to take that very seriously.

Mr Byles: Through you, Mr Chair, to Ms Brown, we were discussing the bus routes since the last hearing. Perhaps I could ask my director of ACTION to join us to show what progress we have made there and what we may be considering in future to address the issue. Mr Roncon?

THE CHAIR: While he is coming up, I want to go back to the Boomanulla thing. Did your directorate get involved in or champion Clean Up Australia?

Mr Byles: Yes. In fact, I recall that last time—it seems not long ago but I think it was a year ago—when Clean Up Australia occurred, Mr Kiernan was here and we were involved. I met him down at Lake Tuggeranong; he did a media launch down there. We are involved in looking after our city from that perspective. Is there something specific?

THE CHAIR: Yes, Boomanulla.

Mr Byles: Okay.

THE CHAIR: For us, getting back to Boomanulla, there are some construction issues and there are issues about liability, insurance, water, electricity and all those sorts of things. This is an asset of the ACT government that has been let go a bit. Where does the responsibility lie? It will be a whole-of-government responsibility, we feel. We

ATSIEB—13-12-11 100 Territory and Municipal Services Directorate think that there are some things down there that may be a risk to the public. Getting people to come back to that facility—a bit like caring for country, but caring for space: linking it in with a program like that, cleaning the place up a bit—has multiple purposes: bringing community together to help to do some work at a site that is valuable to this community.

Mr Byles: Mr Chair, if I can, I will initially take that on notice and have a discussion with particularly my colleague in Community Services and anyone else who I think might be useful in discussing the issue.

THE CHAIR: Yes.

Mr Byles: I understand your intent there. Perhaps I can discuss that with you after I have had that discussion. If you would allow me some time to do that, I would appreciate it.

THE CHAIR: Thank you. I would like to go to bus services, firstly along Lady Denman to the cultural centre. I do not know if this has been brought to your attention before, but we acknowledge that we have a facility there that is for the whole of Canberra, but whilst we have some Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander participation and interest in the place we would like to look at having a public service accessing that site on its way to the zoo, or to the arboretum at some stage. In your conversations about any future plans for the bus service, we would like you to have that information so that we can probably have some dialogue with you about that.

Mr Roncon: Certainly, Mr Chairman. If I recall correctly, this was an issue, particularly the Lady Denman Drive issue, that might have been raised last year. I cannot quite recall the route number that goes past there—

Mr Byles: It is 81.

Mr Roncon: Thank you, Gary. I know that there was a disused bus stop along the way that has just in the last week or so been reopened. That is certainly now being serviced in terms of the route 81 that travels down that way. And as you would probably be aware from some of the media around, we have introduced a new ticketing system, so we are able to capture some really good data now. Downloading that data, and pulling it out and scrutinising it, will enable us to plan our services better into the future and address some of the issues that you are talking about based on demand—notwithstanding that obviously there is a social need and a community service obligation that we as a government bus provider have as well. We are certainly happy to work with the committee on that into the future.

THE CHAIR: We also thought about this in terms of a previous meeting with the directorate. It might have been yesterday about tourism and events. There is, as I said, a facility for the whole of the ACT in these summer months, during those big periods like Floriade and those things when there is a choice of other activities and places where you can go. When we have that influx of people coming into town, particularly when we have got the celebrations coming up, we are at a point where we are looking to include the cultural centre in that attraction and during those celebrations. We are thinking about working towards that, but we also need to enable people to have access

ATSIEB—13-12-11 101 Territory and Municipal Services Directorate to that facility so that we can promote our cultures and we can promote the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples in the ACT.

Mr Roncon: Yes, certainly. I am more than happy to have a look at route 81 and see what its frequency is and what we might be able to do to improve it.

THE CHAIR: Do the tourism buses go along there as well—not in the recent couple of days: it has not been good to be out with an open-top bus then, has it?

Mr Roncon: No, it has not.

THE CHAIR: Do those buses go along that route?

Mr Roncon: Some of those services are a demand service that you pay for. If you got on, say, in the city and wanted to specifically head in that direction, I think that is possible; but as a general rule—I am not 100 per cent sure—I think that on demand it can be done.

Mr Byles: I was having this discussion with Ms Brown prior to these hearings, and we are certainly aware of the issue, particularly with the Paddys healing centre. Network 13 will be a chance for us to look at the network in totality. Now that we have the issues, we will mark those and consider those as part of the overall network design.

THE CHAIR: I am not sure whether it was at the last hearing we had, but there were some issues about discrimination and racism within the workplace in terms of ACTION. I do not know whether we raised that last time with you or not.

Mr Byles: I do not recall anything ACTION specific. I am sorry; I cannot recall if it was raised at the hearings.

THE CHAIR: It has been mentioned to us at some point, and we may have raised it at one of our meetings, whether we informed you or not. We will go back and have a look at our records to see when it was raised and then we will probably be in touch with you about some of it. But getting back to that point about respect, equity and diversity, having a look at those issues, we have mentioned to other directorates, particularly police earlier, issues about discrimination, prejudice or racism within the workplace. We would like to encourage people to think that if they are not satisfied with the way that things go through the processes that are available for them they can come to us and we will advise them of the processes that they have available to them and ensure them of the confidence of the process.

Mr Byles: Absolutely, and all individuals have that right to follow whatever process they feel they need to achieve some resolution they are comfortable with. I am sure that people in my directorate are aware that my tolerance level for any form of discrimination is zero. That is reflected in the code of conduct; it is reflected in those things we discussed at these hearings today. I can assure you that any discrimination or equity issue, or any issue that involves anything to do with the RED framework, will be investigated.

ATSIEB—13-12-11 102 Territory and Municipal Services Directorate THE CHAIR: Thank you very much for that. Any other comments or questions?

MS COLLINS: No, thanks.

Mr Byles: I have a question, Mr Chair, through you. I have the code of conduct. With the wonders of technology, it is one thing that is on our website but here is a hard copy.

THE CHAIR: Okay. I am sorry we did not get to talk to everyone here. There will be some follow-up with this, and we will share these broader questions, and some that we may not have asked already, with your directorate, Gary. Thank you very much for your time.

Mr Byles: Thank you, Mr Chair; and I would like to thank my staff.

THE CHAIR: Yes, thank you very much—even those ones falling asleep at the back there.

MS BROWN: I would like to come and have a meeting with you at some time, Gary.

Mr Byles: I look forward to that, Ms Brown—absolutely.

MS BROWN: Who do I call?

Mr Byles: Me. I will be in contact with you.

MS BROWN: Thank you.

Meeting adjourned from to 4.16 to 4.25 pm.

ATSIEB—13-12-11 103 Territory and Municipal Services Directorate Health Directorate Brown, Dr Peggy, Director-General O’Donoughue, Mr Ross, Executive Director, Policy and Government Relations Bracher, Ms Tina, Executive Director, Mental Health, Justice Health and Alcohol and Drug Services

THE CHAIR: Thank you very much for coming along.

Dr Brown: Could I read into the record the apologies of Lee Martin, the Deputy Director-General for TCH and Health Services. He was intending to be here but he has had to deal with some urgent matters out at the hospital.

THE CHAIR: Thanks for that. What we have said in the introduction to our sessions is that we will have some generic questions. There are about four of them and they relate to a number of things, such as being informed of activities of the directorate in terms of public events, promotional programs or the launch of your plans and so on. So with things like that, please keep us informed that these things are coming up or if the minister is involved in things. That would be really good. We hope to negotiate some sort of protocols across the service so that we formalise that sharing of information.

The second generic question is about the employment strategy for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people and about how the directorate is implementing this strategy. You have answered some of those questions in the annual report. You did not have much to respond to, I guess, out of our last report because I did not see much of Health in that report. But that is okay.

The third general question that we have is about the RED plan and what your progress has been in terms of that plan. We would be interested in hearing about any positive and significant progress or change that you have observed or recognised within your workplace. Again, I will use the example of the RAP, and drawing from that how people are involved and if there are any changes. It would be a good opportunity for you to promote that in a less formal sense.

The last generic one is about what areas of your policies and programs that you believe have made a significant difference for the benefit of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples—for families and individuals, I guess. So it could be your internal policies or the policies you are delivering in terms of services. It would be really good for us to be able to promote that as well, as long as we are aware of those things.

One of the other questions that relates to that one is that we would be very interested in any budget bids or policy work that is happening. The elected body, as you know, through our roles and responsibilities and our functions, is required to design and develop programs and talk to directorates about how we can add value to the development of those things, even budget bids. We had this conversation with Treasury the other day and we have asked it of every directorate so far: in terms of a single question that you may ask yourselves when you are proposing or considering any initiatives, that question should be “what would the elected body’s view be on this initiative or this strategy that we are contemplating?”

ATSIEB—13-12-11 104 Health Directorate Those are the broad things that we will get out to you. If there are some opening comments that you want to make at this stage, Peggy, I will give you the opportunity to do that and then we might go to questions.

Dr Brown: Sure. Thank you very much for the opportunity. I will ask my team to feel free to join in at any point in time. There are a number of things that we would like to highlight in terms of the work that we have undertaken since we last met with the elected body.

The first is the completion of our reconciliation action plan and the launch of that. We are at the point now of commencing the work to undertake the planning for the next phase. This is a one-year plan. Ross might speak to some of the achievements under that and where we are at. I think that has been a highlight for us, as I said, in this 12 months.

I know this is your second question but in terms of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander employment strategy, we have developed an implementation plan to help drive that. I do not know that we have actually got a lot of progress in actions yet, over and above some of the existing initiatives that we have in place. For example, we do have Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander nursing scholarships available. There are a range of strategies or actions that are being written up as part of that employment strategy. The executive director of HR is overseeing that.

We also have been progressing the work around the bush healing farm, as you would be aware, working with the advisory board. After a period of some delay in terms of progress on that, I think we are starting to get some traction now with that. I am advised that, with the appointment of the architect, plans are going ahead.

In terms of other work around the capital asset development program, we are at the stage with the rebuild at Canberra Hospital that we have advertised on the weekend for the principal consultant for the design of buildings 2 and 3. Building 3 will be demolished the year after next and the construction process will follow after that. As you are aware, there is a plan as part of the rebuild of the hospital to have a dedicated space for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people and family. In the interim we are looking within the existing facility as to what options there may well be for the current time.

We continue to have our Aboriginal liaison officers at the Canberra Hospital, with drug and alcohol—although that position has been vacant for some time—and with mental health, and Calvary has also taken steps to fill the positions that were available there. I cannot give you a precise update as to where they are up to. Calvary most likely will be able to.

Mr O’Donoughue: They have got one position on board and they are still to recruit the second position.

THE CHAIR: So how many all up are there?

Dr Brown: There are four at Canberra Hospital, I believe, one at mental health, one at

ATSIEB—13-12-11 105 Health Directorate drug and alcohol and I think two at Calvary. So that would be eight.

THE CHAIR: Are they all liaison officers?

Dr Brown: Yes. Is there anything else, Ross, that you particularly wanted to add at this point in time?

Mr O’Donoughue: I think you have covered a lot of things, Dr Brown. Certainly in terms of implementation of the RAP plan, we have already had some early wins, as Dr Brown indicated. The refurbishment of the foyer at TCH in a temporary sense is underway. We are looking to place an artwork that we have obtained from a Ngunnawal artist that we identified with the assistance of the elders council and a welcoming message that the elders council have phrased for us in the foyer of the hospital, which was one of the commitments in the RAP plan—that, as appropriate with our buildings, we look to having welcoming entrances.

We are going to do a similar thing in the community health building at 1 Moore Street in the city, and a similar artwork and greeting will be in that. As we move forward with new buildings, we will repeat that. We are also looking to find suitable locations for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander flags. We need the flagpoles at the moment but then on appropriate occasions we can have flag raising ceremonies for those. Dr Brown has mentioned the family room for which we are looking for a temporary location but then it will have a permanent home in the new buildings.

Through the RAP we have also committed to the significant days in the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander calendar, including NAIDOC Week, Sorry Day, Coming of the Light; I think they are the main ones that come to mind.

THE CHAIR: Reconciliation Week.

Mr O’Donoughue: Thank you. We would like to support community-based organisations to amplify, I suppose, the celebrations around those days. I have a particular interest in Sorry Day because it potentially involves physical activity in a bridge walk and we would like to encourage as many of our staff as possible to participate in a walking activity associated with Sorry Day and crossing the Commonwealth Avenue bridge in support of Winnunga and other organisations that have traditionally celebrated that day.

If I were to nominate a success, the process by which we derived the first reconciliation action plan was a real eye-opener for us. We had a lot of staff, rank and file staff, who put up their hand to participate in the process from across the organisation. It was not always easy but they hung in there. I think they got a lot out of it and they were very proud when the RAP was launched. Many of them have come back and have committed to the second RAP plan, and we are opening up the invitation to others from the organisation to join that process. I think that surprised us —the extent to which people got involved and really got a lot out of the process itself.

Dr Brown: There are a couple of other things to mention. The issue around identification and capturing of that data is an ongoing issue for us, but there has been some work undertaken and Ross knows some of the detail of that.

ATSIEB—13-12-11 106 Health Directorate Mr O’Donoughue: Yes, we have had some wins there. We have got some data entry through our patient master index process and also through the field included in our pathology collection forms. That should hopefully mean that the data will be routinely collected by staff. We have also been encouraging and providing training for staff to ask the standard question routinely, when they deal with patients on admission. We have encouraged that through the cultural awareness training as well. There are sessions that I give in orientation for all new staff and the other cultural awareness training also reinforces the importance of data collection and improving the quality of our data.

Dr Brown: There are a couple of other things to highlight. One is in relation to mental health, which I know is always an issue of interest to the committee. We have over the last 12 months had a senior mental health nurse seconded to Winnunga. The decision has recently been taken to—

Ms Bracher: Yes, I was going to speak about a couple of the positions that we have got in this division.

Dr Brown: Yes, to make that a permanent arrangement, so that the specialised mental health nurse is actually located at Winnunga permanently. There has also been some work happening under the population health umbrella, including around the tobacco control strategy and the antenatal, pre-pregnancy and teenage sexual and reproductive health project.

THE CHAIR: That is a long-winded one!

Dr Brown: Yes, but there is some good work there. One of the things that has come out of the smoking one is that we have provided funding to an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander student to undertake a PhD through the Centre for Research and Action in Public Health, to evaluate the tobacco strategy.

THE CHAIR: Thanks for that. I commend you on your work that you are doing and some of the progress that you have made. We are up to the broader strategic questions. Under the justice agreement there are about 13 bits in there that relate to health. You have mentioned a few of those already. I will not go through all of them but we will talk about one in a moment. You mentioned a couple of things in relation to engagement with Winnunga as well. We have asked most directorates to go back and have a look at the justice agreement and at what things they have actually done against that. With respect to what you have outstanding, could we get a bit of an idea of what that is, in some sort of briefing before about the end of February or something like that?

Dr Brown: Sure, yes.

THE CHAIR: Just a bit of an indication of where you are at and what your plan of action is to address that. The other strategic one is the new way health plan, the status of that, how these two documents link together and where we are going with that.

Dr Brown: I might ask Ross to speak to the new way plan, but we are very happy to

ATSIEB—13-12-11 107 Health Directorate provide you with an update against our actions.

THE CHAIR: There might be some things there that you can drop off by now. And you might be willing to add something in there that you see as being of value to the agreement.

Dr Brown: Ross, can you speak to new way?

Mr O’Donoughue: Sure. As members might know, the previous plan was part of a commitment under the national framework. It has a life until 2011. It was the product of a tripartite process between the commonwealth government, through the Department of Health and Ageing, the ACT government and the community- controlled organisations. That group, which has been known as the forum group, has had a bit of a vexed life in not meeting regularly and not always being well supported by the commonwealth department who traditionally have chaired it, especially during the time when the territory office was not functioning very well and then was withdrawn. Now the commonwealth liaison to the territory comes from the New South Wales office. But they have now committed to the forum process and the forum has also extended an invitation to the elected body to join that tripartite process, making it a quadripartite process.

There is a commitment to develop a new version of the wellbeing plan and that work is underway. But it is early days in terms of the development of that plan. It will presumably be over a similar life. The only clarification is that there has been a little bit of movement in the commonwealth landscape in terms of the possibility of other national planning documents emerging. I think if I am right the forum agreed to refresh the actions in the current wellbeing plan for a shorter period of time, just so that we get clarity about what is emerging out of the national framework. So rather than commit to a six-year plan at this stage, perhaps do a refresh for two years and then move forward when things are a bit clearer.

THE CHAIR: Is that different from the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander wellbeing plan or is that the same one?

Mr O’Donoughue: No, that is the plan we are talking about.

THE CHAIR: I just wanted to clarify that with you.

Mr O’Donoughue: The “new way” is the short title of what is the wellbeing plan.

MS COLLINS: Can I ask about the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander nursing scholarships. How many are there, how long has it been going for and what is it about?

Dr Brown: I will have to take that on notice. I cannot give you that level of detail. I believe, from memory, that there are two scholarships, but in terms of the duration that they have been in place, I think it is about two years. But I would have to confirm that, so I am happy to provide that detail back to you.

MS COLLINS: I would be interested to know who is taking them up, where they are

ATSIEB—13-12-11 108 Health Directorate and what is going on with it.

THE CHAIR: We had a big session earlier today with the Education and Training Directorate. We talked at length about transitions and creating opportunities along the way for our young people, so that they can see there are some opportunities like a scholarship if you continue with your education. If that is what your interest is, there is a line of sight for you to choose something.

MS COLLINS: If we are successful in establishing an aged care and respite disability facility, that is the pathway that registered or enrolled nurses could go into.

MS BROWN: We need data. We have been talking with Community Services and it seems a bit hard to convince them that we desperately need an aged and disability respite centre specifically for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. We need some type of data to show the need for it. Does Health do that type of research, so that we can give them data and facts and figures for our case so that we can get something? The majority of our people will not access mainstream aged and disability centres. It is very rare that they do and we really need our own. Di and Lyn Goodwin, who are on ATSIEB too, just went up to Kempsey.

MS COLLINS: They went to Kempsey; they have an aged care facility up there. It is best practice and it is an amazing place and very culturally appropriate. They have a lot of non-Indigenous residents and workers as well, so it is a good place to look at. That has inspired and motivated us to get an understanding about what we might want our service to look like. It is now around how we go about making this a reality within a reasonable time frame as opposed to years down the track—conversations with you guys, and looking at particular areas like the nursing scholarships that can complement, at the end of the day, running a facility that has Indigenous and non- Indigenous staff.

MS BROWN: They have also got one down in Nowra; Rose Mumbler it is called. They are supposed to be doing an amazing job too.

Dr Brown: In response to your question, we undertake a lot of health service planning; indeed, that is the foundation of the capital asset development program. We refresh our planning on a fairly regular basis, just to ensure that we update for any demographic changes et cetera, and we look at the utilisation. That is around health needs. It does not go so far as to cover things like community services. We see respite as a community service rather than a health-specific need.

We do try to factor in cultural needs as part of that planning. In terms of the workforce, we have got an ACT health workforce plan, a discussion paper around that, to go out early in the new year. That is not a workforce plan exclusively for Health Directorate. It is to look at the needs of the health sector across the territory, both public and private. Again, the issue of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander health is mentioned in there—and in terms of building the workforce to meet the needs. So we do have it in mind, but I am not sure that that is going to give you the data that you are requiring.

Another thing I might just mention is that in terms of the workforce, the discussion

ATSIEB—13-12-11 109 Health Directorate document that will inform the final plan is very much being done bearing in mind the work that Health Workforce Australia is doing. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander health and the workforce for that are one of the priority areas of Health Workforce Australia. And of course, we have got the registration of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander health workers to commence on 1 July next year.

THE CHAIR: That is good. I want to go to a couple of key facts. One is on mental health. Earlier we had some conversations with the police. We have had tabled with us an issue around mental health. We have a couple of questions about a mental health model that is specifically for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people to address some of those needs. Do we have one Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander mental health officer at the moment?

Dr Brown: Yes.

THE CHAIR: Are you talking about an additional one?

Dr Brown: No. We have one Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander liaison officer for mental health. That covers the whole of mental health. What we have had over the last 12 months is secondment of a senior mental health nurse, a registered nurse, to Winnunga. We have now agreed to make that a permanent arrangement based at Winnunga.

THE CHAIR: Okay. That is terrific.

Ms Bracher: Within the alcohol and drug service, which is part of that same division now, we have another Aboriginal liaison officer, but that is a position that we are currently recruiting to. Applications close in the first week of January for that one. And by fortuitous luck, one of our social workers who works in building 7 is an Aboriginal man. We recruited him; he is part of our routine workforce.

THE CHAIR: An extension to that is in terms of something I think I may have mentioned to you. I have forgotten his name already. We met on Friday.

Dr Brown: Michael—

THE CHAIR: Michael, yes. Sorry; seniors moment. I did talk about a model where they may consider some identified beds and facilities within the hospitals. I am not sure how the other models are. Perhaps you could investigate whether there are similar models around other jurisdictions. I mentioned one in Victoria, but I am not sure of the current location of that.

It is one of those things that we think would be very useful for our mental health patients. When we talked earlier about the police and the mental health unit that they have, we were really concerned about the appearance and the situation where a situation might be escalated because someone turns up where they are in a uniform, armed and those sorts of things—how that impacts on an individual. It is pleasing to hear that there will be a mental health nurse in Winnunga, but it is in those circumstances, where there is a situation out there where somebody needs to be called, that we need someone to come along.

ATSIEB—13-12-11 110 Health Directorate Dr Brown: Tina may be able to give you more details, but again one of the initiatives that we have put in place this year in mental health and working with the police—this is not specific to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people—is to locate trained mental health staff with police at police headquarters. Tina, do you want to give a bit more detail about that?

Ms Bracher: Yes. There are two ways that those staff are working. One is in training the police officers on mental illness and appropriate interaction with people in that predicament at that particular point in time. The other is having staff in the police operations centre so that when a call comes in the police can consult the mental health worker on whether the person is a current client and, if they are, provide some advice on that—or even if they are not a current client, provide some advice on what might be the best way to de-escalate the situation rather than escalate the situation.

The preliminary data is looking really good in that there are many fewer transfers of people to the mental health assessment unit at the Canberra Hospital in police cars. They are diverted into the ambulance system. If people are that unwell, they come in via ambulance rather than with the police.

THE CHAIR: I think the first thing that we have had through our feedback mechanisms is about families and the other impacts on the families. If a policeman turns up in your street and all sorts of things happen with the relationship with neighbours and the interpretation of neighbours and so on, it escalates for the whole family. We know that there will be a huge investment in mental health nationally and that you will have a specific plan for mental health or a strategy for mental health?

Dr Brown: Yes; we will continue to have two national strategies for mental health. Under the national health reform and the funding that was announced in the last federal budget, there is a plan to develop a 10-year road map for mental health; that work is currently underway.

THE CHAIR: Will that have a section for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander mental health care?

Dr Brown: It is a work in progress. There is another meeting of the group working on it tomorrow; I am not sure that I am at liberty to discuss the detail of it too much.

THE CHAIR: That is okay.

Dr Brown: It is a broad document. Then there is the current fourth national mental health plan, which continues. It is a five-year plan that I think goes from 2009 to 2014, from memory. And the actions within the fourth national mental health plan will continue for a while.

THE CHAIR: I mention that here because there is a national Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander mental health forum that has been established. That group has written to me as the chair of the elected body for some involvement in that national body, that national advisory group. What I am trying to connect here is what we have with our local strategy so that we can feed into a national one so that it comes back around

ATSIEB—13-12-11 111 Health Directorate through the national planning, because that group will advise the direction for the national planning. That is the idea of that.

But sometimes we want to be able to say: “How is this impacting on us locally? What involvement do we have locally?” It is a growing concern for us. It is like the tobacco one, but it is a growing concern. In terms of the funding and the plans, we would ask that the directorate consider something like that workforce plan. Are there any targets, when you are talking about the data, that try to meet the need? I know that impacts already. We can see a decline in some of those that need to be escorted to the hospital in a police van, but nonetheless they are still being escorted by ambulance or other means.

If we can do something there and then, with our mental health professionals if they are available or with liaison people who can come out to a situation, that is probably one of those things where we can give them more options and they do not need to be carted off. In terms of the employment of more case workers, we are really thinking about building that workforce to address the need.

MS COLLINS: You spoke about when it gets to a point where you have to call the police and bring them in, but where is the opportunity for families to express concern about having relief and having an opportunity for their family to be placed in the hospital to give them some rest and respite—and dedicated. Not one day, overnight, because that does not provide a lot of time to regain energy and be able to continue to support your family member who has got mental health issues. Rod spoke about identified beds. If not, is there a plan to look at that issue? And how does it support those families to get that rest from looking after our members who have these issues? You know how complex and difficult it is, and how draining on family, to continue supporting them.

Dr Brown: I will speak to that and then Tina may wish to add to it. In terms of the ACT, we do have an ACT mental health services plan and we have a strategic oversight group comprising consumers, carers, ACT government representatives and commonwealth government representatives from the range of departments that are relevant. So it is not just Health; it brings in the community services as well.

Having said that, I do not believe that there has ever been any discussion about dedicated Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander beds in mental health. It is spoken about more in terms of meeting the need through broader services but delivering culturally safe and appropriate services. In terms of the respite which you are referring to, generally speaking that is not how we see our in-patient beds being utilised—in large part because there is a high demand on them, but also because mostly people look to access respite services in a community-based setting rather than a hospital- based setting, which for some people can be traumatising in itself. There are some respite services available, particularly through some of the commonwealth funding initiatives. I am looking at Ross and Tina, and they might know the details of that, but we can certainly get the details and make that available to you.

Ms Bracher: There are a number of community agencies that do provide supporting care in the community, in people’s homes, but as Peggy said, they are not specifically dedicated to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. They are based on

ATSIEB—13-12-11 112 Health Directorate assessment criteria, if you like: if the people have a particular picture, they are eligible to access those places or beds.

Dr Brown: There is funding in the commonwealth bucket of dollars for respite, as well, for people with mental health problems. And then we have step-up, step-down facilities, which currently we have for young people and for adults. When I say young people, we have an adolescent facility for people from the age of 13 to 18. And we have adults, which is currently 18 to 65—65-plus really. We are in the process of looking at developing two additional options, one for that age group between 18 and 25 years and then one for the over-65s.

MS COLLINS: Are Indigenous people accessing that service?

Dr Brown: I cannot answer that. They aim to provide either step-up or step-down care. Step-down is on the way home from hospital where you might need a higher level of support than home for a period of time, but you do not necessarily need in- patient hospitalisation. Step-up is the opposite: you are at home, obviously not as well as usual, and you need additional support, but perhaps you do not need to be in an in- patient setting. These are a short-term option whereby people can access that additional level of care. That is often the case where the family identify that they need a break and some respite because there is a change in the state of health of the individual.

MS COLLINS: I would be interested to know, in terms of the programs like that, whether our Indigenous people are accessing those. If so, what are the statistics? If not, why not?

Ms Bracher: I am actually meeting on Thursday with Julie Tongs and Herb Krueger, our operational director, to discuss this ongoing position that we are funding and will recruit to that will be based in Winnunga. These community agencies and services have come online in the last year and we need to grow them not only for our usual patient journey but also to make that health worker, that mental health nurse, more familiar with what is out there and be that conduit. That is the challenge that I have across the board, not specifically with the people that access Winnunga Nimmityjah health service but more broadly. The work I have got in my vision for next year is to connect people up in that way so it does not get to a crisis point, and to support people out of hospital more quickly so that they can move back either into their community or closer to their community, whatever community that is.

THE CHAIR: In terms of that, we are also worried about a crisis point for the capacity of an organisation like Winnunga to do many things, and the expectations of them to do many things. We want to be conscious of any plans to engage Winnunga to do things. I understand there is a statement of commitment that was made with Winnunga when Chief Minister Stanhope was around. We would like to have a look at that and how we can work with an organisation like Winnunga so that we do not, I guess, have so much work for a single organisation to do.

There is primary care for Winnunga but there is some ongoing care. Justice looks at Winnunga. Justice looks at the AJC. Justice looks at Gugan and so do Health and other services. We have a small group of services. We want to make sure that they

ATSIEB—13-12-11 113 Health Directorate have solid foundations to do the work, but we do not want to weaken their capacity to do things. Whilst we know that there is a need, there are obviously other questions we need to address as well.

Ms Bracher: I guess I can see that, and that is why, when Julie approached us about continuing that position, I scrabbled around internally quite hard to look for the recurrent budget to do that, in the interests of supporting Winnunga, as a service and the people who use Winnunga, to access the bigger public health service that might have the infrastructure that Winnunga does not necessarily have to do everything for everyone. That is really what we are going to be working on, to really define that.

THE CHAIR: There are two questions here and one is about the renovation of or extensions to Winnunga. There is a bit of a shortfall from the commonwealth in terms of funding; I think they had to cut short a plan for, I guess, another office, an examination room or something; I cannot recall what it is. But there was a shortfall and they were not able to build that part of the extension. We would like to have a conversation with the ACT government about how the ACT government can contribute to that. We understand all the budget constraints but, if we do not put it up, you never know. We would like to work with you on that and think about that.

The other is not to forget that the original bid for the healing farm was for about 16 beds. We want to be able to keep that on the agenda so that some time in the future the bids can allow for extensions to facilitate the original purpose. We see that there is a need. Whilst the budget has limited us to downsize it a bit, it does not take away from the original need. We really want to say that we will keep that in our priorities and keep it in the justice agreement. We will keep it on our list of priorities so that at some stage we can work through a strategy and planning—as long as we just keep it there for the original purpose and original plan. Is that a reasonable request to have that?

MS BROWN: Yes, it is—very reasonable.

THE CHAIR: I want the commitment from Health to talk about that. I do not have any problems with you committing to that.

I think it is important when we are talking about our planning and you are considering your planning that this is not off the radar.

Dr Brown: On that issue, I think we have given an undertaking that, after we commence the current service with the eight beds, we will undertake an evaluation of that service at a point in time and that will help to inform the ongoing need against those original 16 beds.

THE CHAIR: In the planning and the architectural work is it possible that you would have the planning and the design for the eight but you have the additional plan for the 16?

Dr Brown: My understanding is that that has been the basis on which we have actually undertaken the planning; the master plan allows for the 16 but we are designing and building the eight initially and once it commences we will undertake an

ATSIEB—13-12-11 114 Health Directorate evaluation. We have not got a scope of that yet, because it is a couple of years away, but with a view to informing how those beds are working, whether we are meeting need or whether we need to do more, that will help to take it back to government and inform that decision.

In terms of the issue about funding a shortfall and commonwealth funding, that is a new issue to me. We would need more detail to come to government with an outline of what it is that the elected body is looking for.

THE CHAIR: We will come together and have this conversation with Julie and the rest of the board about the details around that.

MR HODGES: I am conscious of the time, but the other thing I wondered, Ross, was whether you could provide an overview of what has been happening with the tobacco strategy and what it means to our people here in the ACT?

Mr O’Donoughue: Thanks. We made a commitment under the bridging the gap national partnership agreement to a tobacco cessation program for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. My recollection is that there is $200,000 recurrent under that partnership agreement in each year. That has been supporting some funded positions. There are also some commonwealth programs that have come under the Tom Calma set of initiatives around tobacco cessation and they have funded some dedicated positions in the ACT, principally at Winnunga.

Our money has gone partly to that PhD student that I mentioned, who is going to be undertaking the evaluation of the strategy. We also had a lot of consultation work undertaken by Ray Lovett when he was on board with the project. We ran a community consultation workshop. We did a lot of literature research, looking for evidence for best strategies. We have done some focused work using social marketing research companies and through the steering group that you are aware of, which has yourself, Winnunga and Gugan Gulwan, we have asked the elected body to keep in touch with that process as well. I think at this stage you have asked for minutes rather than face-to-face representation in that group. We have got an approach which we think is evidence based and which focuses mainly on families and on environments, so encouraging people to not smoke where they might expose children or other family members to secondary tobacco smoke.

We have also been exploring the idea of local champions or heroes, advocates, to be part of the messaging for this campaign. The feedback from the focus groups and the consultation with the community that we have done so far, which is a little bit surprising, is that they would prefer that to be ordinary citizens, identifiable members of the community—not necessarily superstars, celebrities and things like that but more humble people who are just part of the community and who can tell their story.

We think a lot of really good formative work has been done. Unfortunately government social marketing campaigns are always a bit resource poor when it comes to competing with tobacco companies, alcohol companies and the like—the sort of money that the corporate world spends on social marketing. Hopefully we will build a really good evidence base and we will do what we can with the dollars we have got.

ATSIEB—13-12-11 115 Health Directorate We use community service type announcements where we can get them at a cheap rate. We use our networks in the community. But I personally think it would be really good at some point, if we build a really solid campaign, to get a bit more investment behind it, to get a greater impact. We know that the rate of tobacco use in the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities is much higher, and there are some concerning data about pregnant women smoking during their pregnancy. If we could make an impact in that area that would probably have the most significant impact on bridging the gap in terms of effective strategies that we could put in place.

MR HODGES: And will legislation be passed soon about no smoking in cars?

Mr O’Donoughue: Yes, that is in train. It is not my area of expertise, but the government has made that commitment.

Dr Brown: It was in the Assembly last week. I just cannot tell you whether it was passed, I am embarrassed to admit. It was certainly introduced.

Mr O’Donoughue: I am pretty sure that if it is not here it is imminent, and then there is a phasing-in process. The tobacco cessation campaign group has talked about using that as an opportunity, because it is very sympathetic to the approach that we have been talking about—that even if people are going to continue smoking they are likely to be more receptive to “I should not smoke in the car when the kids are there” or “I should not smoke in the house. I can go outside or I can stop smoking in those environments”. So we think that is a good opportunity for us.

MR HODGES: Thanks for that.

MR CHURCH: As you would be aware, one of the functions of the elected body is to report back the views of the community. The view that I am about to report back is quite a contentious one within our local community, considering that it does involve one of our organisations. But, given that we do have the role to report back, I feel it is my duty to report the views of this particular person or community members back through to you guys.

Late yesterday afternoon I received a letter from a community member in relation to Winnunga, and in particular into three areas, which are access and denial of membership, access to services and the lack of transparency in relation to the consultation, decision making, funding and membership of members. The letter is addressed to elected body members, so I do not think I could pass it on to you until I have a chat with the author, but what I intend doing is having a chat with her and then forwarding that letter through to you.

Basically, in a nutshell, on the issue raised around the denial of members, for a number of community members the reason that the memberships were denied was perceived conflicts within the community; there is also a perception that members of the community would or could be detrimental to the organisation. As you would be aware, this takes away the community control element of the organisation, which has been identified as fundamental in the new way plan.

There is also the issue around access to services and within the particular letter the

ATSIEB—13-12-11 116 Health Directorate author states that they have had to wait up to four hours to see a doctor. I am sure you would agree that this is taking away from the opportunistic healthcare model which Winnunga should operate within.

The letter author also raises issues around the lack of transparency, the minimal community accountability that Winnunga has to the ACT Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander residents and that it takes away the empowerment of the community in relation to the delivery of health services in the ACT.

Like I said before, I do not think I can pass this on to you without getting permission from the author. But what I intend on doing is having a discussion with my elected body colleagues and the author and then sending it through to you guys if I get permission.

Dr Brown: Yes. We would certainly be very happy to respond to that if you were able to pass that on. Some of the issues around the membership at Winnunga were canvassed with us some six to nine months ago and we did provide responses at that point in time. Ross probably has more of the detail in his head. But we would be happy to look at any new issues that have arisen.

In terms of the issues around access, transparency and accountability, again we are always very happy to look at those. Certainly our health minister and Chief Minster is very keen to promote open government processes, transparency and accountability. We do need to keep in mind, however, that Winnunga is funded by both the ACT government and the commonwealth government, so we need to be working with the commonwealth government in terms of any new reporting that we do. But they share a similar focus around transparency and accountability, so I do not think there are major issues there. But it comes to the issue about data collection and data reporting. I am just not clear off the top of my head exactly what requirements we have of Winnunga as opposed to what the federal government requires of them.

Mr O’Donoughue: I think some of these concerns were raised, as Dr Brown said, some time ago and one of those occasions was around an annual general meeting that was conducted which resulted in some disputation. As a result of those inquiries we basically sought advice from the Office of Regulatory Services about how Winnunga had met their obligations under the service level agreement that we have with them. Like all funded NGOs from the ACT government, they are obliged under their service level agreement to be incorporated or to be auspiced by an incorporated organisation. They have to provide audited financial accounts to reconcile the money that we give them and how it is deployed. They have to have certain insurances and liability cover.

The advice that we received at that time was that all of those things were in order and that nothing in the way that they had conducted themselves around the annual general meeting was in breach of any obligations that they had to the ACT government. At that time that was the advice that we provided to the correspondents who we were dealing with and Winnunga also advised that they were considering their incorporation model and that they were going to go through a process of consultation about a new incorporation structure for the organisation. I do not know actually where they are up to in that process, but that was the advice they gave at the time.

ATSIEB—13-12-11 117 Health Directorate THE CHAIR: I suppose I do not have to do this, but I will declare an interest in this. I would like to thank you, Brendan, for bringing that to this forum and for your strategy to bring it back to the elected body, as two members of the elected body actually sit on the Winnunga board. I appreciate your comments there and I think we will just take this away and I reckon we will deal with it at the elected body level.

Mr O’Donoughue: Yes.

THE CHAIR: Thanks for bringing that to our attention. I am looking at the time. We are meeting regularly. We plan to meet regularly throughout the year and thank you, Peggy, Ross and Tina. We look forward to getting some more feedback on some of these things. You said you might drop off the report, the justice agreement, but also some of the other things. That will be very useful and thank you very much for your time.

Dr Brown: Okay. We have certainly made some notes of various things and we will take those away and come back to you with them. Then of course we will look forward to your formal report. Thank you.

THE CHAIR: Okay. Thank you.

The committee adjourned at 5.25 pm.

ATSIEB—13-12-11 118 Health Directorate

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