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ROYAL COMMISSION INTO TRADE UNION GOVERNANCE AND CORRUPTION

THE McLEAN FORUM

Level 5, 55 Market Street, Sydney, NSW 2000

On Wednesday, 20 August 2014 at 10.05am

Before the Commissioner: The Hon. John Dyson Heydon AC QC

Counsel Assisting: Mr Jeremy Stoljar SC Ms Fiona Roughley

Instructed by: Minter Ellison, Solicitors

.20/08/2014 1 Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 2 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Stoljar. 3 4 MR STOLJAR: Commissioner, this week the Commission has 5 heard evidence concerning case studies selected as 6 illustrative of the operation and governance issues 7 associated with separate entities in the nature of fighting 8 funds. 9 10 Today concerns the fourth and final case study. 11 12 This fourth case study relates to an entity, the 13 McLean Forum Ltd associated with the Federal Office and New 14 South Wales Branch of the Transport Workers' Union of 15 Australia, (TWU). 16 17 The McLean Forum was incorporated in July 1995, 18 following the retirement the year before of John McLean as 19 Secretary of the New South Wales Branch of the TWU. 20 21 The McLean Forum is a company limited by guarantee. 22 23 The current directors of the McLean Forum are 24 Mr Tony Sheldon, Mr Scott Connolly, and Mr Wayne Forno. 25 Two of these directors have been summonsed to give evidence 26 concerning the operation and affairs of the McLean Forum. 27 28 Mr Tony Sheldon has been a director of the McLean 29 Forum since its incorporation. In 2009 Mr Sheldon became, 30 and remains, National Secretary of the TWU. 31 32 Mr Scott Connolly became a director of the 33 McLean Forum in 2002. At this time Mr Connolly was an 34 Executive Officer or Senior Executive Officer with the TWU 35 of New South Wales. Mr Connolly is now the Assistant 36 Secretary of the Queensland Branch of the TWU. 37 38 Employees and officials of the Federal Office in the 39 NSW Branch contribute regular amounts to the McLean Forum 40 in the range of $15 - $32 per week. This arrangement 41 commenced sometime in 2010. Prior to that, officials and 42 employees of the Federal Office and the NSW Branch made 43 their contributions to a predecessor fund known as the 44 Transport Election Committee (TEC). 45 46 The TEC was formed on 14 July 1989. Mr Sheldon 47 chaired its inaugural meeting at which it was resolved that

.20/08/2014 2 Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 employees and officials would pay between $15 - $20 per 2 week "to remain a member of the Transport Election 3 Committee". Over the following decade significant funds 4 were accumulated in the TEC's bank account from these 5 contributions. 6 7 On 19 March 2010 a meeting of the TEC resolved to 8 close the TEC and transfer the great majority of its funds 9 to the McLean Forum. A cheque for approximately $330,000 10 was made out to the McLean Forum. The cheque was cashed 11 some months later, in June 2010. 12 13 Since June 2010, the McLean Forum's principal 14 expenditure has related to three union election campaigns. 15 One might expect that the McLean Forum's moneys would be 16 spent on the election campaigns of its contributors. That 17 is not the case. 18 19 This is a "fighting fund" that appears primarily, if 20 not exclusively, to fund candidates in other union' 21 elections. 22 23 In 2010 the McLean Forum funded a ticket standing for 24 election to office in the Queensland Branch of the TWU. 25 Nearly $200,000 seems to have been spent by the McLean 26 Forum on that campaign. 27 28 In 2012 the McLean Forum spent more than $50,000 on 29 the campaign of Mr Gerard Hayes and Mr Andrew Lillicrap 30 contesting the NSW Health Services Union elections. 31 32 In 2012 the McLean Forum also spent more than $70,000 33 on candidates running in the elections for the Flight 34 Attendants' Association of Australia. 35 36 I will deal with these in turn. 37 38 2010, TWU Queensland Branch elections. 39 40 On 8 July 2010 the directors of the McLean Forum 41 resolved to appoint Mr Daniel Mookhey to co-ordinate a 42 team, known as the New Transport Workers Team, to contest 43 upcoming elections for positions of office in the 44 Queensland Branch of the TWU. Mr Mookhey was at that time 45 Chief of Staff in the National Office of the TWU. 46 47 The Board of the McLean Forum authorised Mr Mookhey,

.20/08/2014 3 Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 Mr Connolly and Mr Garth Mulholland, to incur expenses on 2 behalf of the McLean Forum in co-ordinating the campaign. 3 Mr Connolly was at that time not only a director of the 4 McLean Forum but National Airlines Official of the TWU 5 National Office. He was also on the New Transport Workers 6 Team Ticket, himself running for a position on the Branch 7 Committee of Management. Mr Mulholland was at that time 8 Chief of Staff to the State Secretary of the NSW Branch, 9 Mr Wayne Forno. 10 11 The New Transport Workers Team was led by Mr Peter 12 Biagini. It won the election, defeating the ticket led by 13 the incumbent State Secretary, Mr Hughie Williams. 14 Mr Williams had been the State Secretary of the Branch for 15 18 years. 16 17 Mr Mookhey, Mr Biagini and Mr Connolly will all give 18 evidence to the Commission as to their role in the 19 organisation and affairs of the campaign and the reasons 20 for the McLean Forum's involvement in that - and other - 21 union elections. 22 23 Mr Connolly appears to have played a central role in 24 the success of the New Transport Workers Team ticket. He 25 was a director of the McLean Forum that bankrolled the 26 campaign. He had the authority of the McLean Forum Board 27 to incur expenses in support of the campaign. But whilst 28 he was a member of the ticket contesting the election, his 29 own candidacy was only for a position on the BCOM. This 30 hearing will inquire into the salary paid by the Branch to 31 Mr Connolly immediately after the New Transport Workers' 32 Team assumed their positions of office. 33 34 Commissioner, as you know, section 190 of the Fair 35 Work (Registered Organisations) Act 2009 provides that an 36 organisation commits an offence if it uses, or allows to be 37 used, its property or resources to help a candidate against 38 another candidate in an election held under Chapter 7, 39 Part 2 of that Act. 40 41 The evidence today will address the extent to which 42 union resources from the Federal Office and the NSW Branch 43 were used in support of union elections. As I have already 44 indicated, at the time of the New Transport Workers' Team's 45 campaign, Mr Mookhey and Mr Connolly were both employees of 46 the National Office of the TWU. 47

.20/08/2014 4 Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 Two further witnesses to be called today are relevant 2 to this issue. They are Mr Tom Pacey and Mr Michael Wong. 3 Both were employees of the TWU who worked on the New 4 Transport Workers Team's campaign. 5 6 2012 HSU NSW elections 7 8 On 4 April 2012, the directors of the McLean Forum 9 resolved to provide financial assistance to Mr Gerard Hayes 10 and Mr Andrew Lillicrap who intended to contest elections 11 for positions of office in the NSW Branch of the Health 12 Services Union and state-registered HSU NSW. 13 14 The Board of directors of the McLean Forum authorised 15 Mr Mookhey to "facilitate the company providing assistance 16 to Hayes and Lillicrap in contesting the HSU elections". 17 18 Mr Hayes and Mr Lillicrap were successful in their 19 campaign. Two other tickets contested that election. One 20 was led by Ms Katrina Hart, who has previously given 21 evidence to this Commission about the organisation of her 22 ticket's campaign finances. Another was led by Mr Robert 23 (Bob) Hull is the summonsed to give evidence next week: 24 25 Mr Hayes is now the State Secretary of HSU NSW. His 26 ticket ran under the banner "Our HSU". Significant 27 expenses were incurred in the campaign. Some of those 28 expenses were met by the McLean Forum. Others, including a 29 printing bill exceeding $100,000, remain outstanding. 30 31 The Commission will receive evidence from Mr Baden 32 Kirgan, the owner of Jeffries Printing, which is owed the 33 vast majority of that outstanding debt. Like Mr Hull, 34 Mr Hayes is summonsed to appear next as part of the 35 Commission's further hearings into the Health Services 36 Union. 37 38 2012 FAAA election 39 40 In 2012 elections were held for positions of office in 41 the Domestic and International Divisions of the Flight 42 Attendants' Association of Australia. The FAAA is an 43 employee association registered under the Fair Work 44 (Registered Organisations) Act. 45 46 On 6 September 2012 the Board of Directors of the 47 McLean Forum resolved to authorise Mr Mookhey to incur

.20/08/2014 5 Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 expenses on behalf of it in co-ordinating the campaigns of 2 Jo-Ann Davidson and Greg Broome "Integrity Teams" in that 3 election. 4 5 The evidence will explore why the McLean Forum - an 6 employee and officers' fighting fund of the National Office 7 and NSW Branch - had any interest at all in being involved 8 in the FAAA elections. It will also address the impact 9 that this external funding had on the outcome of the 10 elections. 11 12 To this end, the Commission will receive evidence from 13 candidates in those elections from both sides of the 14 divide. On one of the side of the divide is Ms Jo-Ann 15 Davidson. Ms Davidson was the incumbent Secretary of the 16 Domestic Division of the FAAA. She successfully retained 17 her office. Her ticket received contributions from the 18 McLean Forum, together with services from third parties 19 paid by the McLean Forum and services from people who were 20 at that time employees of the TWU. The campaign material 21 generated was slick and expensive. 22 23 On the other side of the divide are Mr Michael Mijatov 24 and Mr Chris Worthy. Neither had the financial support of 25 the McLean Forum or contributors of similar size. 26 Mr Michael Mijatov contested the elections for the 27 International Division of the FAAA; Mr Worthy was part of a 28 ticket led by Mr Neil Rao for the Domestic Division. 29 30 The contrast between the amounts available to these 31 candidates compared with their rivals by the McLean Forum 32 is illuminating. For example, whilst Ms Davidson's 33 campaign was provided with professional printing paid for 34 by the McLean Forum, members of Mr Worthy's ticket printed 35 their campaign material using their personal inkjet 36 printers. Mr Mijatov's ticket, perhaps with the benefit of 37 incumbency, ultimately won the contest for the 38 International Division. Mr Worthy's team was unsuccessful 39 in the Domestic Division. 40 41 Attention on the activities of the McLean Forum 42 highlights issues of general application that apply to the 43 operation of fighting funds. 44 45 There are obvious matters of the identity of 46 contributors, the voluntariness of contributions, the 47 appropriate legal characterisation of the funds, and the

.20/08/2014 6 Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 obligations of disclosure, record-keeping and governance 2 that apply to those who control the funds generated from 3 contributors' contributions. 4 5 In addition, there are other issues of transparency 6 and influence that relate to the wider consequences that 7 expenditure by these kinds of fighting funds can and do 8 have on members of the other employee associations. In the 9 case of the McLean Forum's activities described in the 10 course of this opening address, these activities have had 11 consequences for the funding and conduct of other unions' 12 elections which, on their face, had little, if anything, to 13 do with the affairs of at least the very great majority of 14 contributors to the McLean Forum. Yet the involvement of 15 the McLean Forum was not a matter made publicly known at 16 the time the McLean Forum was making its sizeable 17 contributions to the TWU elections in 2010, the HSU NSW 18 elections in 2012, or the FAAA elections in 2012. 19 20 These wider issues fall squarely within paragraph (e) 21 of the Commission Terms of Reference. That paragraph 22 directs attention to the extent to which persons 23 represented by employee associations are protected from 24 adverse effects or negative consequences arising from the 25 operation of relevant entities, or are informed of their 26 operation, or are able to influence or exercise control 27 over their affairs, or have the opportunity to hold 28 officers of the association accountable for wrongdoing in 29 relation to the affairs of the relevant entity. These are 30 complex matters. The extent of the problem, and its 31 implications, are matters to which the evidence of this 32 week is directed. 33 34 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you. Are there any 35 applications for authorisation to appear? Is there anyone 36 here for Mr Pacey? 37 38 MS M GERACE: Commissioner I appear for Mr Pacey. 39 Ms Gerace, for the record, instructed by Slater & Gordon, 40 solicitors. 41 42 THE COMMISSIONER: Gerace? 43 44 MS GERACE: Gerace. 45 46 THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. You have authorisation to 47 appear. Is there anyone here for Mr Mijatov?

.20/08/2014 7 Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 2 MR J NOLAN: Yes. May it please, Commissioner, my name is 3 Nolan, barrister, for Mr Mijatov. 4 5 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. You have authorisation to appear 6 for him. And anyone here for Jo-Ann Davidson? 7 8 MR N READ: Yes. May it please the Commission, my name is 9 Read - R-E-A-D - and I seek authorisation to appear for 10 Ms Davidson. 11 12 THE COMMISSIONER: That's granted. Yes, Mr Stoljar. 13 14 MR STOLJAR: Commissioner, the first witness is Mr Daniel 15 Mookhey. 16 17

.20/08/2014 8 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 A. As I said, counsel, it is. 2 3 MR STOLJAR: I'd ask that Mr Mookhey's statement be 4 received into evidence, Commissioner. 5 6 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. It will be received into 7 evidence. 8 9 #STATEMENT OF NITIN DANIEL MOOKHEY DATED 18/08/2014 10 11 MR STOLJAR: Commissioner, there are two bundles of 12 materials which are identified as TWU McLean Forum tender 13 bundle, volumes 1 and 2. I'd ask that those bundles be 14 received into evidence as well. 15 16 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, they will be received into 17 evidence. Is there any objection to either Mr Mookhey's 18 statement or the two bundles? 19 20 MR GLISSAN: Not to the statement but I'm yet to see the 21 bundles. 22 23 THE COMMISSIONER: Well, perhaps they can be received 24 subject -- 25 26 MR GLISSAN: I'm perfectly content with that course which 27 is -- 28 29 THE COMMISSIONER: -- to your right to object, yes. 30 No-one else objects? 31 32 MR STOLJAR: I understand that material will be available. 33 People who have authorisation should be able to access it. 34 35 THE COMMISSIONER: Ms Gerace? 36 37 MS GERACE: Commissioner, I haven't seen tender bundle, 38 volumes 1 and 2. I have no objection to the statement of 39 Mr Mookhey. 40 41 THE COMMISSIONER: That will be received subject to your 42 right to object at any convenient later time. 43 44 MS GERACE: Thank you, Commissioner. 45 46 MR READ: I'm in the same position, Commissioner. 47

.20/08/2014 9 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. The same applies to all legal 2 representatives. 3 4 MR STOLJAR: Q. Mr Mookhey, could I begin by just asking 5 you some background about the McLean Forum. It was 6 established - well, you're familiar with that organisation, 7 I take it? 8 A. I have familiarity with that organisation. 9 10 Q. Would you have a look at volume 1 of the tender 11 bundle? 12 A. Can I be provided with volume 1 of the tender bundle? 13 14 Q. Certainly. 15 16 THE COMMISSIONER: Might I inquire whether other legal 17 representatives have access to it? 18 19 MR STOLJAR: Yes. We're just sorting that out, 20 Commissioner. I thought that it was on the eBook and 21 access would be available to those, but there may be some 22 difficulty with that. We'll just have to see if we can 23 provide further copies. Mr Glissan appears for Mr Mookhey, 24 and he has a copy. 25 26 THE COMMISSIONER: Good. 27 28 MR STOLJAR: Q. Mr Mookhey, the McLean Forum was 29 established in about July 1995, is that right, to your 30 knowledge? 31 A. To my knowledge. But in 1995, counsel, I was in 32 year 6, so I wasn't necessarily involved in its 33 establishment. 34 35 Q. It received funds, did it not, from the Transport 36 Election Committee? 37 A. I, personally - I'm sorry, I don't have any knowledge 38 other than the knowledge which you've already stated as in 39 I wasn't party specifically to that choice or decision. 40 But I'm aware of the fact that its funds, started in 2010, 41 were derived, I think, from a decision to close the 42 Transport Election Committee. I just wasn't party to that 43 decision. 44 45 Q. If you go to page 13, looking at the page numbering in 46 the bottom right-hand corner, there was a meeting of the 47 Transport Election Committee on 19 March 2010?

.20/08/2014 10 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. And you're identified as an observer at that meeting? 4 A. An observer. Not a participant. 5 6 Q. Quite so. But, in any event, you were present at that 7 meeting, I take it? 8 A. I was, yes. 9 10 Q. The short point is that the signatories decided to 11 close the TEC and transfer its funds across to the McLean 12 Forum? 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. And, indeed, the final dot point is that the 16 signatories signed and made out a cheque for $330,000-odd 17 to the McLean Forum. Were you party to discussions at the 18 time as to why that decision was taken? 19 A. I observed those discussions. I wasn't a party to 20 them. 21 22 Q. Did you hear any discussion involving those persons 23 present at the meeting as to why that decision was taken? 24 A. Well, as I've said, counsel, I observed it. As a 25 result, I heard what was said at that meeting. 26 27 Q. What was said about the reasons for making that 28 transfer? 29 A. The choice to make the decision to move moneys from 30 the Transport Election Committee to the McLean Forum was 31 made because the McLean Forum is a company limited by 32 guarantee, that it's subject to a constitution that was 33 regulated by ASIC. The choice was - and this was happening 34 at a time in general where the union and various sort of 35 related entities - I think the Royal Commission refers to 36 them - were making a general drive towards improved 37 governance, and the choice was in respect to the TEC, that 38 whilst that arrangement may well have been reflective of 39 government standards of the 1980s, it wasn't necessarily 40 reflective of the government standards and expectations 41 that were held at the time. The choice was given the 42 McLean Forum had already been established, there was a 43 company, it was subject to ASIC regulation, it was a better 44 vehicle to substantially discharge the same function. 45 46 Q. The Transport Election Committee, what was the 47 constitution of that entity? Was it a company or was it

.20/08/2014 11 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 just a group of people? 2 A. Counsel, I had no involvement with respect to the 3 Transport Election Committee. 4 5 Q. The cheque in fact came across from the TEC to the 6 McLean Forum in about June of 2010. If you have a look at 7 page 16, looking in the bottom right-hand corner? 8 A. I'll wait for it to appear on my screen. Are you 9 referring to the transaction as referred in this bank 10 statement listed 1 June? 11 12 Q. 2 June. 13 A. Yes. Okay. Yes, I see that. 14 15 Q. So that's the money coming out. Would you have a look 16 at page 87, for example. It's contained within the 17 financial statements for the McLean Forum which begin on 18 page 83. The numbering is in the bottom right-hand corner. 19 A. Forgive me, counsel, but, sorry, I'm now waiting for 20 your screen to update. 21 22 Q. Yes. You can either follow it on the screen or on 23 the - I think you've got hard copy materials, but suit 24 yourself, Mr Mookhey, whichever is easier. 25 A. Sure. 26 27 Q. Page numbering 87, in the bottom right-hand corner, 28 records the receipt by McLean Forum of that sum of 29 $333,381, and that corresponds with your understanding of 30 what occurred? 31 A. Yes. 32 33 Q. Do you know - and if you don't know just say so - what 34 the principal sources of revenue for the Transport Election 35 Committee were? 36 A. Well, no. In terms of what I understood them to be, 37 I understood them to be the contributions of staff members, 38 officials, organisers and supporters of, in general, the 39 various teams that had led the TWU, and the principal 40 source of funding from the Transport Election Committee is 41 not dissimilar to what I understand the principal source of 42 funding from the forum the McLean Forum to be; that is, 43 small-scale contributions from people who are dependent on, 44 or otherwise a part of, tickets that contest TWU elections. 45 46 Q. Do you know whether - just from your own knowledge - 47 the TEC received contributions from any other sources?

.20/08/2014 12 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 A. Look, again, counsel, I wasn't at all familiar with 2 the operations of the TEC. It wouldn't have that level of 3 detailed information. 4 5 Q. The meeting at which the decision was made to transfer 6 funds across from the TEC to McLean Forum was in about 7 March 2010. 8 A. Yes. 9 10 Q. And the money actually, as we've seen, seemed to come 11 across in about June. Shortly thereafter, there was a 12 meeting of the McLean Forum. If you have a look at 13 page 150 of volume 1, again looking at the numbering in the 14 bottom right-hand corner, there was a meeting of directors 15 of the McLean Forum on 8 July 2010, so a month or so after, 16 and you were there by invitation. 17 A. I was, yes. 18 19 Q. Mr Mulholland was also there by invitation. What was 20 Mr Mulholland's position at that time? 21 A. As stated in your opening address, counsel, he was 22 Chief of Staff of the Transport Workers' Union of New South 23 Wales at that time. 24 25 Q. You were Chief of Staff, were you? 26 A. I was Chief of Staff of the Transport Workers' Union 27 of Australia. 28 29 Q. Of Australia, yes. So the resolution was that you 30 would co-ordinate the New Transport Workers Team campaign; 31 that's a campaign in Queensland? 32 A. Yes. 33 34 Q. That Mr Connolly, yourself and Mr Mulholland will have 35 authority to incur expenses on behalf of the McLean Forum 36 in coordinating the campaign? 37 A. I'm aware that's what the minute says. 38 39 Q. You had authority to draw cheques, and cheques must be 40 presented. So, thereafter, you coordinated the campaign of 41 the New Transport Workers Team in Queensland? 42 A. As I state in my statement, counsel, the coordination 43 function that is referred to in that minute evolves into a 44 liaison function later on, particularly as the New 45 Transport Workers Team establishes their own campaign 46 systems and their own campaign structure. This minute in 47 this meeting was resolved at a point where the New

.20/08/2014 13 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 Transport Workers Team was somewhat in its infancy and 2 thus, the coordination function here was essentially 3 assumed by the New Transport Workers Team, themselves, when 4 their campaign was established. 5 6 Q. When you say there was a liaison function, is that 7 what you are describing at paragraph 15 of your statement? 8 A. I refer to it in paragraph 15 of my statement. I also 9 refer to it in paragraph 9 of my statement, I believe. 10 Perhaps not. But certainly I do refer to it in 11 paragraph 15. 12 13 Q. Paragraph 15, yes. We'll come back to that. I just 14 wanted to get the dates for the campaign clear in my mind. 15 If you have a look at volume 2 - and again you can either 16 look on the screen or on the hard copy - page 351 in the 17 bottom right-hand corner. 18 A. Sorry, was that page number -- 19 20 Q. 351, in the bottom right-hand corner. 21 A. Yes. 22 23 Q. I'm just looking at the heading "Important Election 24 Dates". This is contained within a brochure produced by or 25 on behalf of the New Transport Workers Team. Is this a 26 brochure that you worked on yourself by the way? 27 A. No. I had no involvement in this. 28 29 Q. In any event, at page 351 is says: 30 31 1. The roll of voters shall close at 5pm on 32 17th August 2010 ... 33 2. Nominations shall open at noon on 34 14 September 2010, and shall close at noon 35 on 5th October 2010. 36 3. The ballot shall open at noon on 37 8th November 2010 ... 38 39 In rough terms, that's the timing of the election itself? 40 A. Counsel, in rough terms, yes, but I am as reliant on 41 this information, on this brochure, as you are. 42 43 Q. Well, not quite as I am. You were coordinating the 44 campaign, weren't you? 45 A. No. As I explained to you, I was at it's instant 46 playing a coordination role, but it evolved. Certainly by 47 the time this brochure was produced - a brochure which,

.20/08/2014 14 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 incidentally, I had no role in its production. But, yes, 2 if you're asking me roughly whether or not these coincide 3 with my understanding of the election timetable, I believe 4 so. I would also make the point, incidentally, that this 5 was a common election timetable to all TWU branches that 6 were subject to election in that quadrennial year. And in 7 terms of the information that I have, my information about 8 the election dates are more sourced from my liaison with 9 the Australian Election Commission and the organisation of 10 those elections, not necessarily the result of any 11 involvement in the Queensland campaign. 12 13 Q. Could I ask you to have a look at your statement. You 14 say there that you provided certain work. You remained 15 based in Sydney, did you? 16 A. I was - in the performance of my duties, I was 17 entirely Sydney based. 18 19 Q. Right. 20 A. And might I say the duties that I'm referring to are 21 my duties of Chief of Staff at the Transport Workers' 22 Union. The Transport Workers' Union of Australia was then 23 and is still currently headquartered in Sydney. 24 25 Q. But, nevertheless, you were closely involved in the 26 conduct of the campaign in Queensland? 27 A. I don't understand what you mean by "closely 28 involved". 29 30 Q. Well, you were working on it on a daily basis; 31 correct? 32 A. Absolutely not. 33 34 Q. No? 35 A. No. 36 37 Q. You say in paragraph 15, you liaised between McLean 38 and the NTWT, so you paid campaign suppliers? 39 A. I didn't pay campaign suppliers, the McLean Forum paid 40 campaign suppliers, and I facilitated payment on behalf of 41 the McLean Forum. But the idea that - I mean, counsel, if 42 you're inferring from that, that that was a daily object, 43 I'm sorry, that's just not the case. 44 45 Q. Who were the campaign suppliers that you were speaking 46 to? 47 A. Well, the campaign suppliers - I, firstly, wasn't the

.20/08/2014 15 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 only person who was speaking directly to campaign 2 suppliers. In part, the majority of conversations that 3 were had with campaign suppliers were undertaken by the New 4 Transport Workers Team themselves in Queensland. To the 5 extent to which I spoke directly to campaign suppliers, my 6 memory is I spoke to three of them. I believe I spoke to a 7 firm by the name of Hire Intelligence which I believe is a 8 supplier of computer laptops. I believe I spoke to a firm, 9 I think by the name of Merge Print Mail which is the 10 provider of the printing for the campaign, of which they 11 were the largest supplier, I believe. And the third one 12 I believe I would have spoken to was either a car rental 13 company or another company that was providing equipment for 14 rental services. Can I also say in respect to those sort 15 of things, particularly in respect to the Merge Print Mail 16 which was certainly the largest by volume, by supplier, 17 that was largely prepaid. It didn't really require 18 day-to-day liaison, as you put it. 19 20 Q. Let's have a look at paragraph 12 of your statement. 21 You're identifying here other persons who were involved in 22 the campaign. 23 A. I did. 24 25 Q. The first one is Mr Scott Connolly. You say he was an 26 employee of the TWUA and he was a candidate standing for 27 the NT WT. So he was standing for the Branch Committee of 28 Management; is that right? 29 A. As stated in your opening address, counsel, that is 30 the case. 31 32 Q. What was he doing on the campaign? 33 A. I'm sure that question's probably best directed to 34 him. 35 36 Q. Well, you're able to say -- 37 38 THE COMMISSIONER: Q. Mr Mookhey, if I can just give you 39 a bit of advice. 40 A. Yes, Commissioner. 41 42 Q. You are not, I think, entirely doing justice to 43 yourself as a witness or as a human being. Counsel has 44 several times taken you to statements you have made in your 45 statement which you say was true and correct, and which was 46 dated Monday. Now, you did prepare that statement 47 yourself?

.20/08/2014 16 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 A. I prepared it with the assistance of legal counsel. 2 3 Q. Legal counsel on the TWU side of -- 4 A. Well, which I understand is also representing myself, 5 Commissioner, yes. 6 7 Q. If I can just suggest this. The sky is not going to 8 fall in. You shouldn't be quite so defensive when 9 answering questions. You were asked about Mr Scott 10 Connolly's involvement in the campaign and you said that 11 Mr Stoljar should ask Mr Connolly. Well, it was you who 12 raised the involvement of Mr Connolly in the campaign? 13 A. Sorry, counsel. I didn't intend my answer to be at 14 all - appear to be defensive, Commissioner, if you -- 15 16 Q. Very well. 17 A. -- I'm more than happy, if you wish, to provide as to 18 that. 19 20 Q. These are early days. I just think a bit of advice 21 might be useful. 22 A. Thank you for your advice, Commissioner. 23 24 MR STOLJAR: Q. You see, Mr Mookhey, I took you to a 25 meeting of the McLean Forum directors on 8 July 2010, that 26 was at page 150 of volume 1, and we went through that 27 minute together. It said that you would - I'll take you 28 back to it so you can have a look and refresh your memory 29 of it. 30 A. Sorry, is that page 50 of volume 1? 31 32 Q. 150, I'm sorry. 33 A. Oh, 150. Yes. 34 35 Q. The resolution that was passed was that you would 36 co-ordinate - this is in paragraph 1 - the New Transport 37 Workers Team campaign. You're anxious, I suggest to you, 38 in your evidence this morning, to say that you had some 39 lesser involvement, but that was the form of the 40 resolution, was it not, that you would co-ordinate the New 41 Transport Workers Team campaign? 42 A. Counsel, I'm not anxious at all to suggest that this 43 role was less. I think the terms that I used at the time 44 was that was reflective of the choice made in July, and 45 I think I also made the point that as the New Transport 46 Workers Team evolved and established its own function, that 47 coordination role itself evolved. That's not me being

.20/08/2014 17 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 anxious about it. That's me just providing evidence for 2 the assistance of the Commission. 3 4 Q. Do you say that you remained the coordinator of the 5 campaign or did someone else take over? 6 A. Counsel, firstly in respect to - like, this was not a 7 campaign necessarily undertaken with titles, but if you're 8 talking about the coordination function, in large part that 9 was assumed by the New Transport Workers Team directly and 10 shared by the New Transport Workers Team in Queensland. 11 12 Q. Who was the person principally responsible for the 13 coordination role? 14 A. The three people who were principally responsible 15 I believe were Mr Connolly, a gentleman by the name of 16 Mr Donnelly, and Mr Pacey and Mr Biagini, of course, as the 17 leader of that team. 18 19 Q. You say Mr Connolly, Mr Pacey and Mr Biagini? 20 A. Yes. 21 22 MR GLISSAN: And Mr Donnelly. 23 24 THE WITNESS: And Mr Donnelly. 25 26 MR STOLJAR: And Mr Donnelly. I'm sorry. 27 28 MR GLISSAN: That's all right. 29 30 MR STOLJAR: Q. Let's look at those three. 31 32 THE COMMISSIONER: Four. Connolly, Donnelly, Pacey and 33 Biagini. 34 35 MR STOLJAR: Q. In paragraph 12, you say: 36 37 I am aware that the following people were 38 involved in the [Queensland] campaign: 39 40 The first person is Mr Connolly. What was the nature of 41 his involvement in the Queensland campaign? 42 A. He was a candidate standing for the Branch Committee 43 of Management. He was also a person who played a senior 44 role in the formation of the New Transport Workers Team and 45 in its organisation. 46 47 Q. During the course of the campaign, was he based in

.20/08/2014 18 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 Sydney or in Brisbane? 2 A. Brisbane. 3 4 Q. When did he - he was an employee of the National TWU? 5 A. He was. 6 7 Q. And when did he move up to Brisbane? 8 A. He was a - from memory, counsel, I believe he was in 9 Brisbane for many years prior to that. I think he may have 10 moved up in 2007 or 2008. 11 12 Q. I see. So he was employed by the National Office but 13 he was based in Queensland? 14 A. Well, my understanding of Mr Connolly's employment 15 history - and, of course, without wanting to be defensive 16 about this, but I would suggest that you just check for the 17 veracity of the detail, but my understanding of it is is 18 that Mr Connolly, for a period of time, was an employee of 19 the Transport Workers' Union of Australia, Queensland 20 Branch, and then he transitioned to the Transport Workers' 21 Union of Australia, which is where he was at the point of 22 this campaign. It's not - I'm only bringing that 23 information to your attention to say that he was there well 24 and truly beforehand working for the Queensland Branch 25 before he was working for the Transport Workers' Union of 26 Australia, National Office. 27 28 Q. But, in any event, he was employed by the National 29 Office during the course of the campaign? 30 A. He was. 31 32 Q. You say he was on leave. What did you mean by that? 33 A. I understand he was on paternity leave at that period 34 of time. 35 36 Q. But continuing to do work for the campaign? 37 A. Look, in terms - he was not necessarily that active in 38 terms of the campaign in terms of, like, the direct 39 fronting, but to be honest with you, I wouldn't know, 40 I wasn't there. But in terms of I think what I understood 41 your question to mean, in terms of what was he on in terms 42 of his employment relationship with the Transport Workers' 43 Union of Australia, at that period in time, I believe he 44 was on paternity leave. 45 46 Q. Mr Pacey, you say he was an employee of the National 47 Office?

.20/08/2014 19 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. Was he a full-time employee? 4 A. He was. 5 6 Q. When was he employed by the National Office? 7 A. I believe - from memory, I believe it would have been 8 around July or August of that year. 9 10 Q. He was employed for the purposes of the campaign, was 11 he? 12 A. He was employed as a National Executive officer of the 13 Transport Workers' Union of Australia. A National 14 Executive officer. 15 16 Q. But he was employed for the purposes of the campaign, 17 was he? 18 A. I don't accept that. 19 20 Q. I'm sorry, you say - the answer is "no", is it? 21 A. I say I don't accept your propositions, counsel, that 22 he was employed for the purpose of the campaign. He was 23 employed to discharge the responsibilities of the National 24 Executive officer. In the period of time from which he was 25 employed prior to his involvement in the campaign, he 26 engaged in a whole series of programs representing the 27 union as per the requirements of his job. The one that 28 immediately comes to hand, he was involved quite heavily in 29 the establishment of a scheme called the 5Star Trucking 30 Scheme. He represented the union, I think, at groups like 31 the Road Freight Advisory Council, from memory. On top of 32 that, I believe he was partaking in and assisting me in 33 terms of the work we were doing with the National Transport 34 Commission in the establishment of a national fatigue law. 35 I also have a memory of him also providing assistance in 36 respect to the campaign the union was waging for the 37 establishment of the Road Safety Remuneration Tribunal, 38 which we'd termed the Safe Rates campaign. They were the 39 projects to which Mr Pacey was employed to assist with, and 40 they were the projects from which he commenced his 41 employment to do, and that's what he did indeed do for the 42 month of August and part of September of that year. 43 44 Q. August and part of September? 45 A. Yes. He went on leave for the purpose of this 46 campaign at that point in time, I believe. 47

.20/08/2014 20 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 Q. And then what happened, did he go -- 2 A. He came back and he resumed his duties. 3 4 Q. No. But did he - I'm just trying to understand what 5 happened then. You said he worked from August and then 6 part of September, and what happened then? 7 A. Also I would like to point out in the period of 8 September, Mr Pacey was also providing assistance in terms 9 of some of the duties that otherwise belonged to 10 Mr Connolly that Mr Connolly wasn't able to do because he 11 was on paternity leave. So he was in part filling in for 12 Mr Connolly in respect to his duties in the aviation 13 industry. Then, I understand, he went on leave and he went 14 to Brisbane to partake in the campaign. 15 16 Q. He moved up to Brisbane, did he? 17 A. I don't believe he moved. I wouldn't necessarily use 18 the term "moved", but he certainly relocated temporarily 19 for the purpose of - it wasn't like he permanently moved to 20 Queensland. 21 22 Q. When you saw you believed, I mean you're the Chief of 23 Staff, aren't you, for the National Office, at that time? 24 A. Yes. 25 26 Q. And he was working in the office at that time, at 27 least before he went to Brisbane? 28 A. Yes. 29 30 Q. So you know whether he went to Brisbane or not, don't 31 you? 32 A. Counsel, I told you he went to Brisbane. 33 34 Q. You said you believed he went to Brisbane. 35 A. Well, I'm sorry if you interpret that, but I said he 36 went to Brisbane. I think you used the term "moved". 37 I understood the term "moved" to denote an element of 38 permanency to his relocation which I was suggesting wasn't 39 the case. 40 41 Q. The short point is he was in Brisbane and working on 42 the campaign? 43 A. On leave. 44 45 Q. Full-time though? 46 A. On leave. 47

.20/08/2014 21 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 Q. He was working on the campaign full-time? 2 A. He was working full-time on the campaign on leave. 3 4 Q. Was he still being paid by the National Office? 5 A. I understood that his form of leave was leave without 6 pay. That's my recall. 7 8 Q. Then you refer to a Mr Tenkate and Mr Genner? 9 A. It's pronounced Genner. 10 11 Q. They were employed by the TWU and they engaged in 12 afterhours calling of electors, did they? 13 A. They did. 14 15 Q. When did that work start? 16 A. From memory it would have started at the point that 17 nominations closed. I referred to your previous 18 information for that specific date, but that was in general 19 when that program, that voluntary program, commenced. 20 21 Q. Mr Wong, he was an employee of the New South Wales 22 office. What was his position? 23 A. I can't recall, sorry. I wasn't Chief of Staff at 24 that time. I believe he was an assistant in the 25 communications team, or he was part of their communications 26 team. I'm not sure in what capacity. He may nave been the 27 media officer or he may have been the media assistant. 28 29 Q. You say he was a campaign volunteer? 30 A. I believe so, yes. 31 32 Q. Where was he based? In Brisbane or in Sydney? 33 A. For the purpose of his voluntary efforts for that 34 campaign, he moved - he went to Brisbane. So he was based 35 in Brisbane. 36 37 Q. You had regular conversations with all these people, 38 I take it? 39 A. I had regular conversations with Mr Pacey. I had 40 semi-regular conversations with Mr Connolly. I wouldn't 41 necessarily say that I had regular conversations with 42 Mr Wong. In respect to Mr Tenkate and Mr Genner, they were 43 residents, they were based in Sydney. I spoke to them 44 daily, but not about the campaign necessarily. 45 46 Q. You haven't adverted to, in paragraph 12, to 47 Mr Donnelly.

.20/08/2014 22 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 A. Yes, I haven't, but -- sorry, the reason why I didn't 2 was because the letter that was directed to me was about 3 TWU staff. 4 5 Q. Mr Donnelly was at Senator Feeney's office; is that 6 right? Employed by Senator Feeney? 7 A. That was my understanding, yes. 8 9 Q. When did he get involved in the campaign? 10 A. From recollection, I believe he got involved also 11 after nominations closed. It would have been some time in 12 September. 13 14 Q. Was he based in Brisbane as well? 15 A. Yes, I understand that, yes. 16 17 Q. Did you have any input in the decision made to have 18 him move up there and start work on the campaign? 19 A. No. 20 21 Q. Were you aware of discussions that were taking place 22 about that matter? 23 A. I became aware that Mr Donnelly was going. I wasn't 24 aware - I can't give you a letter or verse as to precisely 25 what conversations led to that point, but I was aware - 26 I became aware that Mr Donnelly was the person who was 27 willing to do this, would have been some time around 28 September as well. 29 30 Q. Did you have discussions as to why Senator Feeney was 31 prepared to provide one of his employees to go up and work 32 on that election? 33 A. My understanding of why Mr Donnelly was prepared to go 34 - and when I discovered that Mr Donnelly was, my reaction 35 was that he was a person who has previously been employed 36 by the Transport Workers' Union of Australia, he is a 37 person who the Transport Workers' Union of Australia 38 maintains a close relationship with. He is a person who 39 has, at various points, given tremendous encouragement and 40 support in the campaigns we were waging. As I understood 41 it, he was generally I think part of the TWU family and 42 I think his choice was more about his previous association 43 with the union than anything else, as I understood it, at 44 the time. 45 46 Q. Why was the National Office throwing its support 47 behind the New Transport Workers Team?

.20/08/2014 23 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 A. Well, counsel, firstly, that choice was made by the 2 elected officers of the Transport Workers' Union of 3 Australia. So I, personally, wasn't a party to that 4 choice. My understanding as to the reasons why they made 5 that choice - is that what you're asking or? 6 7 Q. Yes. 8 A. Yes. Well, my understanding is about eight factors 9 informed their decision. Firstly, the emergence of a 10 national road transport market, an event which occurred in 11 general between 2000 and 2010. Secondly, the establishment 12 of a national industrial relations system which commenced 13 in 2005 and was substantially redone in 2009. Third, the 14 establishment of a national road transport law, of which it 15 would regulate the hours capable of work by TWU members 16 and, incidentally, was a law led by the Queensland 17 Department of Transport, as well as the National Heavy 18 Vehicle Regulator was to be based in Brisbane. The fourth 19 reason I understand - was that number four? That is four. 20 They are the first four reasons which meant the TWU -- 21 22 THE COMMISSIONER: Q. I think you actually gave three. 23 Perhaps the fourth one you were thinking of is the support 24 by the Queensland Department of Transport? 25 A. Perhaps it is, yes. 26 27 Q. Yes. 28 A. The reason I draw attention to that was because all of 29 those factors were present throughout the entirety of the 30 agenda that was being pursued by the union and throughout 31 that period of time, it became clear to the TWU's 32 leadership - of which, incidentally, I wasn't an elected 33 leader, but it became clear to all of them that the 34 previous conception of the community of interest would no 35 longer withstand those sort of choices. In reality the 36 shifts to which the union were responding was as described, 37 all of which led to a conclusion that the union had to 38 operate on a more nationally coordinated basis. Now, the 39 following reasons as I understand it - and I don't wish to 40 necessarily disrespect anybody who was involved in these 41 sort of things, but the subsequent reasons have to do with 42 the performance of the Queensland Branch that followed, 43 namely, the inability of the Queensland Branch to adapt; on 44 top of that, the inability of the Queensland Branch, as its 45 previous leadership, to necessarily reform. On top of 46 that, the ability and the tremendous subsidy that was 47 provided to that branch by a whole suite of various forms

.20/08/2014 24 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 of the union, be it the New South Wales Union, be it the 2 Victorian union, all the other State branches, and 3 including the National Office, all of which for a long 4 period of time were essentially having to act as a de facto 5 Queensland Branch because the Queensland Branch wasn't 6 necessarily at its peak function. On top of that, the 7 other issues to do with the involvement were related to 8 some of the conduct of the Queensland Branch in the wider 9 labour movement that was causing an element of angst and 10 concern, all of which caused the union to have to consider, 11 and the leadership of the union, to have to consider 12 precisely what would be the best interests of the members 13 going forward. They made a choice to support change. They 14 were amongst many people who made a choice to support 15 change. But when you take, for want of a better term, the 16 first four factors; that is, the establishment of a 17 national transport market and national industrial relations 18 system, all of which meant that all branches had an 19 interest in the performance and health of each other, and 20 the the extent to which they were able to pursue their own 21 outcomes was in large part dependent on their ability to 22 co-ordinate across those boundaries and to create points of 23 centrality in the use of their industrial power and 24 strength, combined with the fact that there was a branch 25 that was known to be quite weak, that weakness was causing 26 tremendous harm to the other branches, and a decision was 27 reached by the political leadership of the union that that 28 could not be necessarily endured for a further four years. 29 30 Q. Right. Well, the position was, wasn't it, that the 31 leadership of the Queensland Branch was at that time, or 32 prior to the election, under Mr Hughie Williams. When you 33 talk about the Queensland Branch having an inability to 34 adapt or an inability to reform, you mean the Queensland 35 Branch under the leadership of Mr Williams? 36 A. I do. 37 38 Q. Mr Williams had been there for some 18 years? 39 A. I believe in the capacity of secretary, although 40 I take from his published memoirs that his involvement with 41 that branch was a lot longer. 42 43 Q. You say that in the eyes of the National Office there 44 had been a subsidising of the Queensland Branch? 45 A. I wouldn't necessarily attribute that view exclusively 46 to the National Office. It was a view that was shared 47 generally throughout the union.

.20/08/2014 25 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 2 Q. You said that the conduct of the Queensland Branch was 3 causing concern? 4 A. Yes. 5 6 Q. What were the concerns, precisely? 7 A. Well, for one - and, again, I'm not necessarily - 8 I don't mean to say this in a manner of disrespect to 9 Mr Williams or the service that he rendered to the union, 10 but two issues particularly stood out in respect to the 11 conduct of Mr Williams that was causing an element of angst 12 in respect to the wider labour movement. The first was the 13 choice of Mr Williams to support the then Bligh 14 government's program of privatisation contrary to 15 commitments claimed to have - people have claimed that he 16 made to other unions, and when he came to act in a manner 17 that was somewhat contrary to those commitments, or at 18 least peoples' perceptions to those commitments, that 19 caused a tremendous degree of angst and incidentally led, 20 for example, to a huge element of dispute with a group 21 called the Australian Transport Union's Federation. 22 Indeed, it led to that group essentially having to suspend 23 its operations for about a year. The second thing was to 24 do with a dispute in relation to the proposed establishment 25 of an enterprise agreement at a company by the name of 26 Australia Post which was a nationally significant 27 enterprise agreement. That was coordinated and led by the 28 Australian Council of Trade Unions and included a whole 29 bunch of different unions that had some element of 30 bargaining. Mr Williams, certainly according to the ACTU 31 and others, had for reasons I think perhaps best known to 32 him, taken a view that was contrary to the views of the 33 other unions in the conduct of that union, and did so 34 without necessarily providing them with forewarning or 35 knowledge, all of which caused tremendous angst in the 36 wider labour movement and incidentally caused the wider 37 labour movement to place a lot of pressure on other 38 branches in other parts of the Transport Workers Union, 39 including the National Office, including, for want of a 40 better term, to rein in, you know, the Queensland Branch in 41 that conduct. They were the issues which I referred to 42 when I was say it was a cause of wider grief in the labour 43 movement. But I do stress, counsel, it wasn't necessarily 44 my responsibility to take conclusion on this respect. I 45 was not an elected official of the union. 46 47 Q. I'd asked you already some questions about

.20/08/2014 26 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 paragraph 15 where you say: 2 3 Most of my liaison duties involved paying 4 campaign suppliers, arranging payment of 5 expenses and reimbursement of 6 volunteers ... 7 8 Who was actually paying those funds? It was the McLean 9 Forum, was it? 10 A. The McLean Forum. 11 12 Q. Would you have a look at just some of those expenses. 13 A. Is there a particular thing that you want me to look 14 at? 15 16 Q. Well, actually, do you know off the top of your head 17 how much the McLean Forum paid? 18 A. I believe it was within the vicinity of approximately 19 $175,000 to $200,000. 20 21 Q. That's how much the McLean Forum expended on the 22 campaign? 23 A. I believe so, yes. 24 25 Q. If you have a look at, for example, page 105 in the 26 bottom right-hand corner, volume 1, that's right in the 27 middle of the McLean Forum financial statement? 28 A. Sorry, counsel, I'm just finding the document. 29 30 Q. Yes. 31 A. Yes. 32 33 Q. If you have a look at page 105 there's an entry "Other 34 expenses" and a figure of $222,974. Just from your 35 understanding and from your role in the campaign, were 36 those expenses largely directed to the Queensland election? 37 A. I believe that the - those expenses certainly would 38 have included the Queensland election, but they also would 39 have included expenses related to the New South Wales 40 elections and the national elections as well. 41 42 Q. Was the McLean Forum providing funds for those 43 campaigns as well? 44 A. For the purpose of the McLean Forum, funds was to 45 assist the return of people in New South Wales and 46 Victoria - sorry, and the National Office in general, so, 47 yes.

.20/08/2014 27 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 2 Q. All right. Well -- 3 A. But in part, counsel, I do accept the majority of 4 those expenses would have been to do with the Queensland 5 election. 6 7 Q. Just to give some examples, there is a summary 8 document which may assist. Mr Mookhey, if you go to page 9 182A. 10 A. Yes. 11 12 Q. All that's been done with this document is that a 13 whole series of bank statement descriptions and cheque-butt 14 descriptions have been pulled together. There's a figure 15 of total expenditure on the Queensland election at the 16 bottom of 201,000 which roughly corresponds to your 17 estimate of 175 to 200. 18 A. Yes. 19 20 Q. You obviously haven't had an opportunity to look at 21 this, it's just been put together very recently. But if 22 I just take you to some of those entries, it might assist 23 in -- 24 A. Sorry, do you mind if I ask the origins of this 25 document or -- 26 27 Q. That's prepared by the Commission staff based on 28 documents produced under Notice to Produce. All the 29 documents are behind it. 30 A. Thank you. 31 32 Q. There is a whole stack of documents, and this is just 33 trying to bring together in summary form what those 34 documents say? 35 A. I understand. Thank you very much. 36 37 Q. Just to give you a better idea of how that document 38 has been put together, if I just take you to some of the 39 entries. For example, if you go to page 219, in the bottom 40 right-hand corner -- 41 A. Yes. 42 43 Q. -- it is a cheque-butt for a cheque drawn on the 44 McLean Forum. It is a little hard to read. Is that your 45 writing, by the way? 46 A. The first paragraph is not. The second paragraph is. 47

.20/08/2014 28 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 Q. When you say the first paragraph, the words - it looks 2 like "with Daniel"? 3 A. That's not my handwriting, no. 4 5 Q. It's not? And then it says -- 6 A. 7 D Mookhey. TWU [Queensland]. 8 Reimbursement 9,000. 9 10 Yes, that's my handwriting. 11 12 Q. That's your handwriting. If you go to the next page, 13 page 220, you can see that that cheque was presented and 14 there's a debit of $9,000. What was that reimbursement 15 for, do you know? 16 A. Counsel, throughout the whole period of this campaign, 17 I was using my personal funds to essentially manage cash 18 flow, for the principal reason that whilst McLean was an 19 organisation that conducted its banking on the basis of 20 chequebook commerce, campaign commerce somewhat occurs at a 21 faster pace, and the capacity to discharge the requirements 22 to issue cheques was simply not possible to be met in 23 accordance with the demands of the suppliers. 24 I volunteered to use my only personal funds in that 25 respect. You'll find that not just this cheque, but 26 there's a series - I'm looking at document 182A, a whole 27 series of documents refers to a series of reimbursements 28 paid to me over that period of time. 29 30 Q. Yes. 31 A. Those payments refer to the expenditures that 32 I incurred on behalf of the McLean Forum because the 33 McLean Forum's funds weren't - the suppliers wouldn't 34 accept McLean cheques. They were only prepared to accept 35 essentially other forms of more direct and more, I guess 36 one could say, modern forms of payment. McLean's 37 inability, sort of lack of those systems - which I believe 38 sort of - they've evolved, I'm not necessarily sure, those 39 payments, these reimbursements refer to the expenditures 40 that I incurred in that campaign. 41 42 Q. In fairness to you, just to remind you, you had 43 express authority to do that. If you go back to 44 page 150 -- 45 A. Yes. 46 47 Q. -- the original resolution that we've been looking

.20/08/2014 29 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 at, item 2, says I think yourself, among others, "have 2 authority to incur expenses on behalf of the company in 3 coordinating the campaign. They will be reimbursed for any 4 expenses they personally incur." 5 A. Yes. 6 7 Q. You were acting in accordance with that resolution, 8 I take it -- 9 A. I was. 10 11 Q. -- when you incurred expenses? 12 A. Yes. 13 14 Q. So there's no suggestion of any impropriety or the 15 like in doing that, but if I take you back to 219, you 16 don't have a recollection, sitting here today, as to what 17 that 9,000 was for? 18 A. Not - sorry, are you referring to the entry that is 19 marked - sorry, which one? The one on 23 September? 20 21 Q. Yes. 22 A. Look, I'm able to give a summary of all the expenses 23 that I incurred throughout that period of time. I'm not 24 necessarily sure whether I can align them to each specific 25 cheque, but probably - I'm not sure which way you would 26 like me to proceed, counsel. 27 28 Q. Why don't you give a summary of the kinds of expenses 29 you were occurring? 30 A. I incurred approximately $9,000 of expenses on my 31 personal credit card to be able to rent a serviced 32 apartment for people who were volunteering in the campaign. 33 I incurred, I think from memory, approximately $15,000, it 34 could be more, in respect to paying for printers. From 35 memory, I believe I would have incurred and paid for the 36 rental of computer equipment. I believe I also - using my 37 own personal funds, as you kindly point out, using 38 authority given to me by the McLean Forum would have paid 39 honoraria to a certain amount for campaign volunteers, as 40 well as reimbursing volunteers for costs incurred. I would 41 have also paid for, using my only personal funds that were 42 reimbursed by the McLean Forum, for the Skype credit that 43 was being used for the Sydney phone bank. I would have 44 also have incurred sort of guest expenditures and ancillary 45 to all of the above. And also, most importantly, I also 46 provided to the Queensland campaign a personal credit card 47 that was mine for them to be able to incur expenditure, and

.20/08/2014 30 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 I would have made cash deposits because it was a prepaid 2 credit card on that account as well. They generally were 3 the categories of expenditures to which I incurred 4 throughout that period of time. 5 6 Q. Did you, in order to incur those expenditures - for 7 example, the first item you mentioned was renting a 8 serviced apartment. Did you go to Brisbane and look at 9 apartments or how did that work? 10 A. No, I Googled. 11 12 Q. You Googled? 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. In any event, you chose the apartment, did you? 16 A. No. Actually, to be honest with you, the New 17 Transport Workers Team chose it on the basis of Google. 18 I checked it on Google. It seemed fine. That's my recall. 19 20 Q. You mentioned honoraria. What does that mean in this 21 context? 22 A. In this context, the New Transport Workers Team, the 23 particular philosophy to which they were applying in the 24 course of their campaign, was for it to be what they term a 25 grassroots campaign. That is, they invested a lot of time 26 in recruiting, training, generating rank and file 27 volunteers who'd be prepared to advocate on their behalf. 28 Indeed, that was a principal point of differentiation in 29 terms of the campaign strategy that they employed, and I 30 understand, as they put it to me, it was meant to signify 31 their embracive organising as a general philosophy, and 32 also meant to demonstrate that their commitment to 33 organising as a general philosophy in the conduct of the 34 union. As part of that, they recruited a whole series of 35 people who came off the job, that is truck drivers, 36 aviation workers, bus drivers, who were prepared to 37 volunteer for the campaign; that is, take personal leave 38 from their employment, come off. It is a relatively common 39 practice in union elections for that to happen because 40 again the movement is overwhelmingly of a grassroots nature 41 that is dependent on voluntaryism. The honoraria that I 42 referred to was honoraria that was designed to, for want of 43 a better term, provide them an allowance to be able to meet 44 the costs associated with their volunteer activity. 45 46 Q. Oh, I see. So it was to cover expenses that that 47 volunteer might have incurred?

.20/08/2014 31 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 A. Yes. Look, it could be anything from travel, it could 2 have been anything from phone, particularly phone given the 3 campaign was also invested in speaking to as many people as 4 possible, and they were using their personal phones. 5 Volunteers were using personal phones. As it was explained 6 to me, that was for the desire sort of for them to be able 7 to sort of meet those costs. 8 9 Q. Could I ask you some questions about the HSU 10 elections. 11 A. Sure. 12 13 Q. If you come to 153. 14 A. 153? I'm sorry, I'm looking at the wrong document. 15 16 Q. Yes, in the bottom right-hand corner. This was a 17 meeting of the directors of McLean Forum. 18 A. Sorry, I'm just yet to reach that document, counsel. 19 Yes. 20 21 Q. This was a meeting of directors of the McLean Forum on 22 4 April 2012, and you were present by invitation again. 23 A. I was, but I do make reference in my statement to my 24 late attendance at this meeting, as in I think I state in 25 paragraph 19 that I was at this meeting on 4 April but 26 I turned up after, like, quite late into the meeting. 27 28 Q. I was going to ask you about that so I'll do that now. 29 You say that Mr Hayes was also at the meeting, "However, 30 he'd left by the time I arrived." You're talking about the 31 meeting that's minuted at page 153? 32 A. I'm not sure whether or not he was necessarily at that 33 meeting, but there was a meeting that day with Mr Hayes to 34 which I attended. It is likely, counsel, that one followed 35 the other, if that helps. 36 37 Q. So what actually occurred? Where was the meeting or 38 meetings? 39 A. The meeting, I think it was held, from memory - 40 I can't recall the specific name of the hotel that is at 41 World Square in Sydney, but it was held at the hotel that 42 is at World Square in Sydney, that is I think it could be 43 either the Novotel or the Sofitel, or something like that. 44 45 Q. Mr Hayes had a meeting with Mr Sheldon, did he? 46 A. Mr Sheldon and Mr Forno, I believe, yes. 47

.20/08/2014 32 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 Q. Mr Sheldon and Mr Forno. That had concluded by the 2 time you arrived, and then -- 3 A. I caught the last two minutes of that meeting. 4 5 Q. Was Mr Connolly present at that meeting? 6 A. He wasn't physically present. I'm not sure whether he 7 was there by phone or not. 8 9 Q. And then there was, what, immediately after that 10 meeting a meeting of directors, was there? 11 A. I believe so, yes. Yes, there was. 12 13 Q. That was when it was decided that the team of Mr Hayes 14 and Mr Lillicrap would be supported in the upcoming HSU 15 elections? 16 A. Yes. 17 18 Q. Your involvement in that campaign is as described at 19 the top of page 154, is it, that you were to facilitate the 20 company providing assistance to Hayes and Lillicrap in 21 contesting the HSU elections? 22 A. Yes. 23 24 Q. And again, you had authority to incur expenses of the 25 company in coordinating the campaign? 26 A. I did, subject of course to the other company 27 practices and guidelines, but yes. 28 29 Q. What were the practices and guidelines that you make 30 reference to? 31 A. Oh, just to be clear, I never could function as a 32 signatory of a chequebook, for example. I never was a 33 signatory; I have never served as a signatory, and 34 therefore what I'm referring to is in accordance with that 35 limitation, for want of a better term. 36 37 Q. And then you say in paragraph 22: 38 39 The 'Our HSU' campaign was only ever 40 partially funded. The monies received were 41 fundraised from the wider Labour Movement. 42 The McLean Forum made a contribution to the 43 campaign to assist in costs ... 44 45 A. Yes. 46 47 Q. Do you recollect approximately how much the

.20/08/2014 33 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 contribution of the McLean Forum was? 2 A. Circa $52,000, I believe. 3 4 Q. When you say it was partially funded, what does that 5 mean? Do you mean partially funded by the McLean Forum? 6 A. No. Partially funded by the HSU campaign. But it 7 might be helpful to the Commission to understand the 8 context the campaign was created in. 9 10 Q. Please. 11 A. That was perhaps best described as somewhat of a 12 crisis that was occupying tremendous public attention, 13 parliamentary attention; the attention of regulators, 14 amongst many others. The meeting that happened in April 4 15 was very much one of the earlier stages or acts of this 16 particular crisis and therefore, I think you'll find, that 17 the minute is reflective of the fact that the directors 18 weren't necessarily aware of how the campaign was to evolve 19 because they weren't necessarily aware of how the crisis 20 was to be resolved. In terms of the early element of 21 partial funding, it is clear at this point in time that 22 predominantly to bring the movement to some element of 23 resolution on this, to remove the sort of people who are 24 now proven and now found to have been corrupt, who are 25 partaking in those campaigns, that the whole of the 26 movement - and when I say "whole of the movement", I mean 27 the entirety of the labour movement - had to demonstrate a 28 sort of mainstream response to this particular crisis, 29 specifically the capacity for the union's rules, as well as 30 union elections in general to deliver change. The 31 'Our HSU' campaign very much had that view and very much 32 campaigned on that view, and sought support from the 33 entirety of the labour movement because it was thought that 34 the entirety of the labour movement had to demonstrate its 35 abhorrence of what had happened at that union and its 36 desire to rid the union of those people. The 'Our HSU' 37 campaign explicitly sought and went to every single person 38 that we possibly could have in respect of the wider labour 39 movement seeking their support for the campaign. So when 40 I say that the campaign was only ever partially funded, 41 what I mean by that is we put the emphasis first, and our 42 priority first was on the campaign, and in building support 43 for the campaign and building support for the change that 44 was necessary in the HSU before we necessarily prioritised 45 how we paid for it. 46 47 Q. Is that what you mean in paragraph 23 when you say:

.20/08/2014 34 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 2 The balance of campaign costs, including 3 printing and mail, was paid for via 4 provider credit. 5 6 A. Yes. We were fortunate enough that the principal cost 7 that was incurred was incurred to a printer. The printer 8 was willing to sort of - the printer is a person who is 9 widely known in terms of sort of their services to the 10 campaigns to which generally - like, not just necessarily 11 these ones, they were prepared to sort of do the campaign 12 on credit, and it helped us tremendously because again our 13 priority wasn't fundraising. Our priority was building a 14 constituency for change in that union. 15 16 Q. Who was the printer who was prepared to do it on 17 credit? 18 A. Jeffries Printing. 19 20 Q; In paragraph 25, you set out some matters in summary 21 that I think really you - well, you put in paragraph 25 in 22 more succinct form what you've just given evidence about 23 concerning the reasons for the support of the 'Our HSU' 24 campaign; is that right? 25 A. Were you referring to my comments just before as being 26 the succinct version or these ones being the succinct 27 version? 28 29 Q. These being the more succinct version. 30 A. Yes. Well, this is a more succinct version of what 31 I just said. 32 33 Q. When you say "the movement" in 25, you're talking 34 about the labour movement? 35 A. The entirety of the labour movement. 36 37 Q. Can I just come back to the point about Jeffries 38 Printing. Did you have discussions with someone at 39 Jeffries Printing? 40 A. I, myself? 41 42 Q. Yes. 43 A. Throughout the course of the campaign, I had plenty of 44 discussions with people at Jeffries Printing. The majority 45 of those discussions was about the production of campaign 46 material. 47

.20/08/2014 35 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 Q. And You were supervising the production of that 2 campaign material, was you? 3 A. I was one of a few people who was, yes. 4 5 Q. You had discussions about them providing it on credit, 6 did you? 7 A. Myself, no. No. I mean, having said that, I was 8 aware of it and I certainly - but I wasn't the person who 9 had the conversations with them directly. 10 11 Q. Who did? 12 A. I believe it was either - either Mr Hayes but in 13 probability it was probably someone else from the labour 14 movement. I believe it was probably - I think it was 15 probably either - I think it was Sam Dastyari who was the 16 convenor of that group in the labour movement. 17 18 Q. What was his position at that time? 19 A. At the time? 20 21 Q. Yes. 22 A. He held a number of positions, but the -- 23 24 Q. Relevantly, what was his position? 25 A. Relevantly, as in - what do you mean by that? 26 27 Q. To provide guidance on. In what capacity was he doing 28 that? 29 A. As a leader of the labour movement, he was - his 30 employment was as general secretary of the Labor Party but, 31 on top of that, he was the convenor of an informal grouping 32 inside the Labor Party that was - and, coincidentally, the 33 labour movement, that was one of the people who was 34 providing us with support in the course of that campaign. 35 36 Q. Can I show you some -- 37 A. Having said that, counsel, I do stress that, like, I'm 38 only providing that information on a hearsay basis. 39 40 Q. Who, by the way, told you that it was on provider 41 credit, the Jeffries Printing? 42 A. That was my understanding because I had a whole series 43 of conversations with Jeffries Printing, around which the 44 sum total conclusion to be drawn from all those 45 conversations was that it was to be on provider credit. 46 47 Q. Your understanding was drawn from conversations you'd

.20/08/2014 36 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 had with somebody at Jeffries printing? 2 A. A series of conversations. 3 4 Q. A series of conversations. I'm going to show you some 5 other documents. 6 7 MR STOLJAR: Commissioner, I'm providing the witness with 8 the folder that's marked "Baden Kirgan MFI-1". Mr Kirgan 9 is a witness who is going to give evidence tomorrow. 10 11 THE COMMISSIONER: If this suits your plans, why don't we 12 tender the documentary part and call it "Baden Kirgan MFI"? 13 14 MR STOLJAR: May it please the Commission. 15 16 THE COMMISSIONER: Very well. The documents attached to 17 Mr Baden Kirgan's witness statement will be received into 18 evidence as "Baden Kirgan MFI-1", subject to the right of 19 any legal representative to object later if so advised. 20 21 #BADEN KIRGAN MFI-1, DOCUMENTS ATTACHED TO WITNESS 22 STATEMENT 23 24 MR STOLJAR: Having now gone into evidence, the pages to 25 which I make reference will appear on the screen so 26 everyone can follow it. 27 28 Q. Could you please come to - again the page numbering is 29 in the bottom right-hand corner - tab 9, page 58. In fact, 30 that's the end of an email chain. If you come to page 59, 31 it is a bit easier. The bottom of 58 and going over to 59. 32 A. Yes. 33 34 Q. You have an email from Mr Latham. Where was Mr Latham 35 working? 36 A. He was a university student who was volunteering on 37 the campaign. I believe he was doing part-time work with 38 the union as well. 39 40 Q. Which union was he doing voluntary work at? 41 A. I don't think he was volunteering for work. I think 42 I termed it part-time work. 43 44 Q. I'm sorry, part-time. Which union was he doing that 45 at? 46 A. I believe it was the Rail, Tram and Bus Union, 47 I believe.

.20/08/2014 37 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 2 Q. I see. So he was working there part-time, but he was 3 also working on the HSU campaign, was he? 4 A. Volunteering on the HSU campaign. He was a university 5 student, I think he was doing his Honours that year. 6 7 Q. He says in his email of 23 August 2012: 8 9 Mate, any chance I can grab a listing of 10 everything we've got printed for this 11 campaign and what we owe you? 12 13 Daniel is back from overseas and we're 14 going to stock take the entire campaign 15 this arvo. 16 17 Mr Kirgan responds further up the page -- 18 A. Sorry, is that on page? 19 20 Q. That's on page 59. Did you have a meeting with 21 Mr Latham that you recollect that afternoon or do you not 22 remember? 23 A. Quite possibly. I don't specifically - what, 24 23 August. I believe, actually, unlikely that date, but 25 shortly thereafter because, from memory, 23 August was the 26 day I actually arrived back from overseas. It's unlikely 27 I would have met with him that day but I may have. 28 Probably the next. 29 30 Q. Mr Kirgan, if you go back to page 58, responds: 31 32 No worries. 33 34 Let me know who I am making the invoices 35 out to and I will send you the bills. 36 37 A. Yes. 38 39 Q. Mr Latham responds: 40 41 If we can make them out to Our HSU 42 Incorporated that'd be great. 43 44 A. Sorry, I can't see where that is. 45 46 Q. At the top of page, 58. 47 A. Yes. I've got that, yes.

.20/08/2014 38 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 2 Q. Then come to page 62. 3 A. Yes. 4 5 Q. It is a month later. Mr Latham sends an email to 6 Mr Kirgan copying in yourself, saying: 7 8 Hi mate, 9 10 Any chance we can grab those invoices for 11 the campaign so far? 12 13 Thanks! 14 15 A. Yes. 16 17 Q. And then again we have to sort of move backwards 18 because they are email chains, but if you come to page 61, 19 Mr Kirgan responds: 20 21 Apologies for the delay - please find 22 attached all invoices to date. 23 24 A. Actually, no, I think he says: 25 26 Following on from my discussion with 27 Daniel, please find below prices for 28 various items. 29 30 Q. At the top, just above that, he says: 31 32 Apologies for the delay - please find 33 attached all invoices to date. 34 35 A. Yes, but unless you're suggesting, counsel, that the 36 tables that are listed on the document that's immediately 37 in front of me are those attachments - is that the 38 suggestion that's being made or -- 39 40 Q. He says "Please find attached," I was assuming it was 41 attached to his email. 42 A. Well, perhaps it is, counsel, but that's not 43 necessarily apparent to me in terms of the documents that 44 you've put before me. As I understand these documents, 45 forgive me if I'm reading them incorrectly, the documents 46 that you seem - that have been produced here, he explains 47 to be a list - "Find below prices for various items." From

.20/08/2014 39 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 my recall, he provided us with a series of these throughout 2 the course of the campaign that would sort of allow the 3 campaign to essentially determine how much it could or 4 could not afford on the basis of these rates. I'm not - I 5 don't think this resembles an invoice because these 6 attachments don't, for example, include items like quantity 7 or date, or any other information one typically associates 8 with an invoice. So whilst I well and truly accede to the 9 fact he may well have attached those emails, they aren't 10 necessarily the documents you have put in front of me. 11 And, incidentally, it doesn't actually include his business 12 name, logo, or how to make payment. 13 14 Q. Well, that's fine. The email says: 15 16 Hi Dave & Daniel. 17 18 You're the Daniel I take it? 19 A. I am the Daniel. 20 21 Q. You received this email, 17 December, at 1.15 - 22 September, I apologise. 23 A. I believe so. I'm listed as a person to whom this 24 email was cc'd. 25 26 Q. Do you recollect whether or not the email had attached 27 to it invoices from Jeffries Printing? 28 A. I have no recollection of whether or not those were 29 attached to it or not, but I do believe on the basis of the 30 email they probably were. It's just that they aren't the 31 documents you were putting before me. 32 33 Q. No, that's so. Could you then come to page 63. In 34 the middle of that page there's an email: 35 36 Hi David and Daniel 37 38 Just to confirm we'll lodge the mailout 39 today ... 40 41 The second paragraph: 42 43 I will flick you an invoice shortly but we 44 will need to grab some money from you 45 pretty quickly for the postage. 46 47 He means postage for the mailout, I take it?

.20/08/2014 40 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 A. I believe so, yes. That's how I read the document as 2 well. 3 4 Q. And then you respond at the top of the page: 5 6 Hi Mate, 7 8 Thanks so much! 9 10 Flick us the invoice - we will turn them 11 around (relatively) quickly. 12 13 A. I do. 14 15 Q. So you're asking him to send through an invoice; 16 correct? 17 A. I am. 18 19 Q. You are saying you'll turn it around, meaning the 20 invoice? 21 A. Yes. 22 23 Q. You don't mention anything about provider credit, do 24 you? 25 A. Not at that point, no. Certainly not in this email. 26 27 Q. Excuse me just one moment. Indeed, Mr Kirgan says to 28 you in his email that I took you to a moment ago - 29 I didn't take you to the last paragraph? 30 A. Sorry, could you repeat the page number for me? 31 32 Q. Yes. Page 63, so stay on 63. 33 A. Yes. 34 35 Q. I'd taken you to the second paragraph: 36 37 I will flick you an invoice shortly ... 38 39 The next paragraph is: 40 41 Dave mentioned six potential mailouts, 42 which is great but we can't spot that much 43 postage at the moment as we are still owed 44 ... [in effect] from the Federal, State, 45 and Local elections by the party and 46 campaigns. I'll have to invoice you when 47 we lodge each mailout and if you can fix up

.20/08/2014 41 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 at least the postage straight away (24 2 hours) that would be appreciated. 3 4 It is in response to that that you say: 5 6 Thanks so much! 7 8 Flick us the invoice - we will turn them 9 around (relatively) quickly. 10 11 A. Yes. 12 13 Q. Then if you come to page 65, we're now 1 October 2012, 14 and Mr Kirgan says: 15 16 Hi Dave & Daniel. 17 18 Invoice attached. 19 20 A. Yes. 21 22 Q. Is that an email you received on or about 1 October 23 2012? 24 A. I believe so. 25 26 Q. And it attached an invoice? 27 A. Yes. 28 29 Q. Did you pay that invoice? 30 A. Well, unless - I can't recall. He sent us a series of 31 invoices. I think - I'm reading from the subject line or 32 two lines below it says "Attachments"; there's an invoice 33 number. If you're able to provide me with a copy of that 34 invoice, I might be able to provide you with -- 35 36 Q. We'll see if we can track it down. If you come to 37 page 67, he says "one more invoice"? 38 A. Yes. 39 40 Q. 41 Could you please let me know how you go 42 with that postage? A bit desperate for 43 cash. 44 45 A. Yes. 46 47 Q. No reference to provider credit there, is there?

.20/08/2014 42 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 A. No. Counsel, may I understand precisely what these 2 questions are getting towards? 3 4 Q. And then page 68, 6 October: 5 6 Hi Dave & Daniel. 7 8 Please find attached invoice for the 9 mailout to be lodged on Monday. 10 11 A. Yes. 12 13 Q. You were continuing to ask him to do more work; 14 correct; do more mailouts? 15 A. The campaign was, yes. 16 17 Q. You're the one giving instructions on behalf of the 18 campaign, aren't you, it's Dave and Daniel? 19 A. I'm not the only person, counsel, but yes -- 20 21 Q. You were one of the ones giving instructions -- 22 A. -- I do accept your general proposition that I was one 23 of the people who was giving those instructions, yes. 24 25 Q. Your instructions were to keep doing mailouts and keep 26 incurring more work? 27 A. Yes. 28 29 Q. At page 70 there's another email from Mr Kirgan to 30 yourself and Mr Latham. He says. 31 32 Hi gents, 33 34 Haven't heard anything for a while on the 35 campaign - hope all is going well. 36 37 In the meantime can you let me know how 38 payment for the attachment is going? 39 40 A. Yes, counsel, I do see this and I understand the 41 series of emails that you are pointing my direction to. It 42 might be of assistance to the Commission if I can provide 43 information about what was happening in parallel to these 44 emails, if that helps? 45 46 Q. All right. By all means. 47 A. I mean, obviously I was also calling to Mr Kirgan on

.20/08/2014 43 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 this. I wasn't necessarily - our communication wasn't 2 exclusively limited to email. Throughout the course of 3 those communications I was having with him and to the 4 extent to which he asked me - you need to be fair to him, 5 he asked other people as well - the consistent view was, 6 yes, these campaigns were all being incurred by the 7 'Our HSU' team and particularly, I think, the fund that was 8 established for the purpose of conducting their campaign. 9 We'd made it clear to him at various points that our 10 efforts to fundraise were not necessarily being as 11 successful at least from the cash flow perspective. A 12 whole variety of different people sort of made the same 13 point to him, from the campaign, that is, myself, 14 Mr Latham, but I think maybe Mr Hayes, and we made it quite 15 clear to him that, yes, we understand the urgency of these 16 payments but the reality is that this was a political 17 venture. The nature of political ventures in general is 18 that they don't necessarily have the smooth flow of cash 19 flow that one associates with commercial enterprise, and to 20 be fair to Mr Kirgan, he was very generous to us. He well 21 and truly understood that that was a relatively common 22 practice. In fact, in one of your emails he essentially 23 refers to the same problem arising from other campaigns to 24 which he renders service. It is not like - for Mr Kirgan, 25 at least, my understanding is it wasn't necessarily an 26 exceptional proposition, particularly when you're working 27 for people engaged in a political campaign, that their cash 28 flow is somewhat unsturdy. Yes, I accede to the general 29 point, and as I make in my statement, that it ends up being 30 done on provider credit, but you wouldn't necessarily 31 understand that on the basis of exclusively looking at 32 these emails. 33 34 Q. Well, the problem - what you are articulating is that 35 the fundraising efforts for the HSU had not been as 36 successful as you had hoped so you were not able to pay -- 37 A. It didn't occur at the pace at which we would have 38 liked them to have occurred. 39 40 Q. And so you were not able to pay the invoices? 41 A. Yes. Which is a position we made known to Mr Kirgan. 42 43 Q. Just one moment. By "provider credit", then, do you 44 mean that you just weren't going to pay him and he had to 45 put up with it? 46 A. No, it was done in terms of - it was done in the 47 manner of how you would expect these things to be done with

.20/08/2014 44 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 a person and a provider who has quite a knowledge of the 2 people for whom he intends to work and the types of 3 industries to which he intends to service; that is, it 4 wasn't at all an exceptional practice for the type of work 5 that Mr Kirgan ordinarily does. My understanding is 6 Mr Kirgan is, and the way in which he conducts his 7 business, is that he is very attuned and, indeed, he builds 8 a lot of his business plans on his knowledge of these type 9 of ventures and the sort of complexities to which they 10 arise. I well and truly acknowledge, and so does the 11 'Our HSU' team well and truly acknowledges that we were the 12 beneficiaries of Mr Kirgan's sort of patience in this 13 respect and we were, you know - and we were certainly 14 throughout the course of that period grateful, but I'm 15 suggesting to you, counsel, that the manner in which the 16 'Our HSU' team dealt with Mr Kirgan wasn't exceptional at 17 all from the manner in which, in general, Mr Kirgan's 18 industries work - like, the industries that he services 19 work. 20 21 Q. If I can take you through a few more of these emails, 22 page 71. 23 A. Sorry, counsel? 24 25 Q. Page 71 in the bottom right-hand corner 26 A. Yes. 27 28 Q. He says this is the last invoice for the additional 29 $7,500 HTV. And then page 72, another invoice and he's 30 given a summary. He says: 31 32 Here are all ... 33 34 He must mean the invoices to date, summarised below. Total 35 amount of $103,000, 16 November 2012? 36 A. Yes. 37 38 Q. If you come to page 73, the bottom of the page, 39 Mr Latham sends an email saying: 40 41 Hi guys, 42 43 Just letting you know that the ballot has 44 just been declared. 45 46 That's the HSU ballot, I presume: 47

.20/08/2014 45 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 We won every position overwhelmingly. 2 3 Thank you for all your help during the 4 campaign. Much appreciated. 5 6 Then you write an email immediately above that, the same 7 day, 11 minutes later, saying: 8 9 I guarantee that we'll pay your bills soon! 10 11 A. I certainly did so because I well and truly thought at 12 that point in time that was possible. Counsel, I also 13 would like to draw attention to what I say in my statement 14 about how the campaign thought it was going to pay its 15 costs. In fact, the balance of paragraph 23 of my 16 statement - I understand you have already made repeated 17 reference to this statement, but perhaps have not drawn the 18 attention of the Commission to this point, which is, the 19 'Our HSU' plan - the plan was to repay this debt was the 20 proceeds of the dissolution of a fighting fund. Now, I'd 21 like to make the point that in respect to the 3rd of 22 December - and I would also like to make the point that at 23 this point my involvement was to fade out, but I would like 24 to make the point that throughout the whole period of time 25 several 'Our HSU' candidates, as well as incidentally 26 candidates from the whole time, and I believe candidates or 27 people associated with the Hart team, were all previous 28 contributors to a fighting fund. That fighting fund's 29 dissolution was the subject of litigation. The thought was 30 that that litigation would be resolved in a manner where 31 the funds of that previous fighting fund would be 32 distributed to all the contributors, and the general theory 33 was that the 'Our HSU' people who had previously paid would 34 pool their distributions, the members' distribution to be 35 able to pay these bills. As it turns out, to be blatantly 36 honest with you, I do not have the precise recall of the 37 specific vicissitudes of that litigation, but, as 38 I understand it, there were three teams who, incidentally, 39 had just contested an election against each other and, 40 incidentally, had all the animosity towards each other that 41 you would expect from people who had just contested an 42 election. All those people essentially made a choice to 43 essentially persist with that litigation or in that 44 dispute. So in terms of Mr Kirgan, when I sent this 45 statement on 30 November, I probably would have done so 46 knowing full well that there was a reasonable chance that 47 that would have been resolved. As it turned out, that

.20/08/2014 46 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 wasn't the case. 2 3 Q. You're talking about Mr Williamson's officers' fund; 4 is that right? 5 A. I'm talking about the fund that was contributed to by 6 members of the previously known HSU East, of which 7 Mr Williamson was one, Mr Hayes was one, Mr Bob Hull was 8 one and I believe Ms Jackson, Kathy, was also one as well. 9 10 Q. Can you just come back to 73 for me for the time 11 being. We'll come back to your statement, Mr Mookhey. 12 I just wanted to work through the balance of these emails. 13 Page 73, bottom right-hand corner, we've looked at your 14 statement, "I guarantee we'll pay your bills soon", and 15 Mr Kirgan responds: 16 17 Congrats guys 18 19 Big win for you both. And, yes, payment 20 would be a nice Christmas present. 21 22 This is 3 December 2012. And then page 74, we now come 23 through to January 2013, Mr Kirgan sends a reminder: 24 25 Gents, 26 27 Can you please advise on this. Chased Sam 28 up on Wednesday but no response. 29 30 31 A. Yes. 32 33 Q. That is Mr Dastyari, to your understanding? 34 A. Yes. It might be of assistance to the Commission to 35 know that in addition to relying on the 'Our HSU' plan that 36 I refer to in my paragraph, the campaign of which, to be 37 honest, I wasn't the only person who embarked upon this 38 course, did go and see all the people who were prepared to 39 make commitments and who were prepared to lend support to 40 see whether or not they were prepared to be forthcoming in 41 their support at this point in time. I did inform that to 42 Mr Kirgan. I believe others did as well. It might be, to 43 the assistance of the Commission, to understand that part 44 of the reason why I believe Mr Kirgan was prepared to, for 45 want of a better term, indulge us is because he was aware 46 of the fact that our campaign had the overwhelming support 47 of the majority of the labour movement. He was also well

.20/08/2014 47 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 and truly aware that our fundraising efforts were at some 2 point likely to succeed and, to a degree, because of his 3 contextual knowledge of the labour movement in general, and 4 contextual knowledge of the people to whom we were 5 referring, and his independent relationship with them, he 6 was - I think that was also a factor in his consideration. 7 At various points in conversations with me, he made that 8 point to me that he understands precisely where we were 9 coming from, but I would suggest obviously you will have 10 the opportunity to speak to Mr Kirgan directly on that 11 point but -- 12 13 Q. Now, could I take you to -- 14 A. The reference contained in 74 to "Sam", his inclusion 15 of that reference in this email probably arose from one of 16 those conversations I or others had with them about the 17 efforts the 'Our HSU' team was embarked upon to be able to 18 pay its costs. 19 20 Q. Could I take you through to page 112, it is behind the 21 next tab. This is an email from Mr Kirgan to Mr Hayes, the 22 bottom of the page. It is now July 2013. 23 A. Yes. 24 25 Q. You may not have seen this email before, but I'll 26 explain why it's relevant to you in a moment. He says: 27 28 We haven't heard back from Sam - did you 29 have any luck talking to the other people 30 elected on the ticket about paying their 31 share of the bills? 32 33 It's a full year now since we started doing 34 this work and I'm sure you'd agree we've 35 been reasonable but I think it is probably 36 time to start paying some money. It's a 37 bit hard to credit that we've not received 38 a cent for this work in all this time. 39 40 That's what Mr Kirgan says. Mr Hayes responds: 41 42 Hi Baden 43 44 The campaign was run by Sam while I was 45 unemployed. 46 47 I don't have anything but debt and I don't

.20/08/2014 48 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 know how this has fallen back to me when it 2 was organised and instigated by others. 3 4 I'll keep trying Sam but I am not in a 5 position to do anything further. 6 7 Mr Kirgan responds, further up the page: 8 9 Understood but at the moment it's actually 10 fallen to me and Ric, and while we are 11 appreciative of the work, we are wearing 12 the cost while not receiving any 13 benefit ... 14 15 Mr Hayes responds, at the top of the page: 16 17 The issue is Sam's. 18 19 And then further up, if you go to page 111, 11 July 2013 -- 20 A. Sorry, what page, counsel? 21 22 Q. Page 111. 23 A. Yes. 24 25 Q. Mr Kirgan says back to Mr Hayes: 26 27 I spoke with Daniel Mookhey this morning 28 and he is going to talk to Sam. We'll see 29 how we go from there. 30 31 A. Yes. 32 33 Q. And he did speak to you, did he? 34 A. He did, yes. 35 36 Q. And you then spoke to Mr Dastyari and chased it up? 37 A. I believe I did, yes. 38 39 Q. There is nothing about provider credit, is there? 40 A. Counsel, firstly, you're referring to events that 41 happened, I believe, six months, seven months - July 2013, 42 seven months after the conclusion of the campaign, and can 43 I also make the point seven months after my involvement 44 with the campaign also ceased. The question that was 45 directed to me was directed about my knowledge of the 46 campaign during my involvement in the campaign. Certainly, 47 and throughout the entire period of my involvement in the

.20/08/2014 49 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 campaign, I well and truly stick by the presumption it was 2 on provider credit. If you would like me to cast 3 information in that respect, I'm more than happy to, but it 4 is not necessarily the case to say that just - clearly 5 things change. 6 7 Q. If I can finish the email chain now, go to page 110, 8 there is a reference there at 18 September 2013 to speaking 9 to Jamie. Is that Mr Jamie Clements, to your knowledge? 10 A. I believe it could be. But, again - I believe so, but 11 I'm not sure. I wasn't party to this email correspondence. 12 13 Q. The point really is this, is it not, Mr Mookhey, that 14 you, yourself, crafted the statement that you put in 15 evidence before this Commission, and you said at the outset 16 of your evidence that it was true and correct. If you go 17 to paragraph 23, it says: 18 19 The balance of campaign costs, including 20 printing and mail, was paid for via 21 provider credit. 22 23 The printing, I asked you what you meant, and you said that 24 was Jeffries Printing. You said you'd had discussions with 25 someone at Jeffries Printing about doing it on what you 26 called provider credit? The position is that you -- 27 A. That's not necessarily what I said, counsel. 28 29 Q. Well, the position is that it was never done on 30 anything in the nature of provider credit, what actually 31 happened was you just didn't pay his bill; that's right, 32 isn't it? 33 A. Well, counsel, that's a particularly cynical 34 interpretation of events, but, yes, I believe you're 35 entitled to it. 36 37 THE COMMISSIONER: Q. Could I just ask one question? 38 The invoices were billed to "'Our HSU' Incorporated". Was 39 that a company? 40 A. I believe so, yes. 41 42 Q. So that had things gone more satisfactorily and more 43 money had come in, the money would have gone to 'Our HSU' 44 Incorporated and they would have paid it out to -- 45 A. Yes, Commissioner, the debt belonged to 'Our HSU' 46 Incorporated. The debt would have been paid for by funds 47 either admitted to HSU or otherwise provided on behalf of.

.20/08/2014 50 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 2 THE COMMISSIONER: Do we have any documents showing who the 3 directors are, and so on, of HSU Incorporated? 4 5 MR STOLJAR: I don't as I stand here, Commissioner, but we 6 will make some more inquiries. 7 8 THE COMMISSIONER: Shall we resume at five past 12? 9 10 MR STOLJAR: If it please, Commissioner. 11 12 THE COMMISSIONER: We will resume at five past 12. 13 14 SHORT ADJOURNMENT. 15 16 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Stoljar. 17 18 MR STOLJAR: Commissioner, could I deal with one matter, 19 I haven't raised it with my friends, I just haven't had a 20 moment, but we had contemplated seeking that you make a 21 direction for a non-publication order in respect of some of 22 the material in Mr Kirgan's MFI-1 that's been tendered in 23 case - a short-term non-publication order until he is here. 24 25 He may consider some of the material as to quantity, 26 price and the like commercially sensitive. He may wish to 27 make an application. He had no notice that we were going 28 to put that material into evidence today and he's coming 29 along tomorrow. 30 31 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. 32 33 MR STOLJAR: So, in order to safeguard his position, the 34 proposal is that a non-publication order be made on a 35 temporary basis until he, if he wishes to, makes an 36 application for a longer term order. I'll just show this 37 to Mr Glissan. 38 39 MR GLISSAN: I don't need to be heard about that, 40 Commissioner 41 42 THE COMMISSIONER: Just read it out before it is made, 43 anyway, so any other legal representative can hear it. 44 45 MR STOLJAR: The proposal is that there be a direction 46 that: 47

.20/08/2014 51 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 1. Pursuant to subsection 6D(3) of the Royal 2 Commissions Act 1902, none of the information identified as 3 (A) quantity; (B) item price; and (C) ex GST in Kirgan 4 MFI-1, tendered in the hearing today, is to be published or 5 disclosed by any person; 6 7 2. Paragraph 1 shall not apply: 8 9 (a) to disclosure by a person to his or her legal 10 advisers or by his or her legal advisers, to the extent 11 necessary for the purpose of that person obtaining and 12 being given legal advice; and 13 14 (b) to the extent necessary to enable counsel 15 assisting, solicitors assisting, and the Office of the 16 Commission to perform work in pursuance of the Commission's 17 terms of reference. 18 19 3. This direction shall remain in force unless varied 20 or revoked by the Commission. 21 22 THE COMMISSIONER: Does any legal representative, other 23 than Mr Glissan, want to say anything about making that 24 direction? Very well, I'll make it. 25 26 MR STOLJAR: I will provide a hard copy, Commissioner. 27 28 THE COMMISSIONER: If you can remind me tomorrow, we will 29 see whether it should be extended or terminated. 30 31 MR STOLJAR: May it please the Commission. 32 33 THE COMMISSIONER: I make the direction which Mr Stoljar 34 read out and which I now sign. Yes. 35 36 MR STOLJAR: Q. Mr Mookhey, could I ask you to come, 37 please, to page 415. 38 A. Sorry, counsel, can you repeat that please? 39 40 Q. 415. 41 A. 415, in which bundle? 42 43 Q. Volume 2? 44 A. Of McLean or Baden? 45 46 Q. Of the McLean, TWU McLean Forum Tender Bundle, 47 Volume 2 of 2. Before the break I was asking you about

.20/08/2014 52 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 work that you had done on the HSU campaign. 2 A. Yes. 3 4 Q. In about the middle of page 415 there's an email dated 5 10 September 2012 from yourself, it would appear, to 6 various persons. You've got a draft of a proposed letter 7 at the top. Skip over the word "Gents" and "I'd like to 8 send on Thursday"? 9 A. Yes, I'm aware of the content you're referring to. 10 11 Q. And then you have: 12 13 Subject Line: My Vote Will Make a 14 Difference ... 15 16 17 18 And then you have: 19 20 I'm sick of being forgotten by my Union. 21 22 My name is ... 23 24 And then in parentheses : 25 26 I have been a ... 27 28 Et cetera. 29 A. Mmm-hmm. 30 31 Q. I take it you drafted this? 32 A. I did. Counsel, to be fair, I may well have edited a 33 draft of this produced by someone else, but this version 34 that you're referring to is reflective of either my 35 authorship or my editorship. 36 37 Q. And your draft would be something that would be 38 circulated to members of HSU? 39 A. Yes. 40 41 Q. The draft continues: 42 43 When all the scandals ... 44 45 And I'm looking a few paragraphs down: 46 47 ... in the HSU started last year, I didn't

.20/08/2014 53 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 believe them. Then, after more accusations 2 were made, I didn't know what to believe. 3 4 Now? I know that the people I trusted with 5 my money let me down. I felt cheated. 6 7 I spent a lot of time thinking about 8 quitting the Union. 9 10 A. Yes. This email is reflective of the communication 11 strategy and the organising strategy to which we reflected, 12 in large part to give voice to those who were alienated. 13 I think you might be referring to, and you may be getting 14 to a point that this is made in a paragraph earlier to it. 15 16 Q. Well, can we just keep walking through this document? 17 A. Yes. I'm just giving you some context about how this 18 email was produced. Counsel, I've produced a whole series 19 to the Royal Commission of communications' documents that 20 were reflective of the strategy being employed at the 21 'Our HSU' team. It very much was the case that we were to 22 be giving voice to those who otherwise were not being heard 23 in the midst of all the crisis. 24 25 Q. You say in your draft here: 26 27 Last week I received an email from Gerard 28 Hayes. His team put together a plan to 29 make sure we're not the State Government's 30 next target. I read it ... 31 32 Et cetera. 33 A. Yes. 34 35 Q. 36 I know that there's an election starting on 37 November 2. After years of scandal, when 38 every politician had their say about my 39 Union before I did, I know how I'll be 40 using my vote: 41 42 Et cetera. 43 A. Yes. 44 45 Q. Then you say at the top of that email: 46 47 Gents,

.20/08/2014 54 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 2 I'd like to send this on Thursday. Do we 3 know a member prepared to endorse this 4 (contrived?) story? 5 6 A. I think that's also included in parentheses, and the 7 intent of me including that term was essentially to ask 8 Mr Lillicrap, Mr Latham and Mr Hayes the extent to which 9 this email is reflective of that feeling and, indeed, my 10 request to them was to source from one of the volunteers a 11 person who was prepared to put their name to this and, 12 indeed, as you'll see in the stuff that's written before, 13 it says Kerri Fitzpatrick from Nepean who was, I believe, 14 the person who was prepared to send it to us, said talk to 15 Tim Fairburn, he's lined her up. What we then did, to 16 follow with this email, was to provide a copy of this email 17 to Ms Fitzpatrick to find out whether or not that was, 18 indeed, reflective of her experiences. That was 19 facilitated through Tim Fairburn, a person who was 20 volunteering. She came back to us - I think she may have 21 asked for one or two amendments and then we sent it out. 22 I think if you're inferring from the term "contrived", 23 I think what - and particularly given "contrived" is 24 followed by a question mark, that question mark is clearly 25 designed to invite Andrew and Mr Haynes and Mr Latham to 26 tell me whether or not they believe this is indeed 27 contrived or not or is, indeed, reflective and from the 28 response to which they provided me, they found a person and 29 was prepared to put it her. They gave it to her, she 30 consented; it was sent. 31 32 Q. And then -- 33 A. Incidentally, can I also say, counsel, that was a 34 common practice. We engaged in a whole series of these 35 emails. They were actually very effective as a campaign 36 tool. The process to which I just described in which a 37 volunteer - myself or predominantly Mr Latham would create 38 such an email which would then ask organisers to check the 39 veracity of them by the people to who it was being sent was 40 indeed a common practice and can I also say in general was 41 a common practice in campaigns. 42 43 Q. Page 417 and following are a series of statements 44 about particular persons involved with the 'Our HSU' 45 ticket? 46 A. I think you'll find from - I'm not sure if you've 47 included them all. Yes, that one is, but the Commission

.20/08/2014 55 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 should know that versions of these statements were prepared 2 for, I believe, the full 55 to 60 people who were 3 contesting it. They were, in large part, identical and, 4 yes, I do refer to them as being the worst job of the 5 campaign which I maintain. 6 7 Q. Why don't we take it in steps, Mr Mookhey. Did you 8 draft these statements? 9 A. No. 10 11 Q. Someone else did? 12 A. Someone else - it was reflective of a - yes, someone 13 else drafted the first draft, and this is reflective more 14 of my editorship than anything else; not necessarily my 15 drafting. 16 17 Q. As you have foreshadowed on page 416, you say: 18 19 This has truly been the worst job of the 20 campaign. 21 22 A. Well, counsel, I am yet to meet someone who finds 23 editing 55 statements to be a particularly enjoyable task. 24 25 Q. You were paid various sums by the McLean Forum in 26 connection with this campaign. 27 A. Paid various sums? Sorry, I don't understand what 28 you're referring to. 29 30 Q. I'll just take you to some of them and then we can go 31 through them. I think you said earlier, and correct me if 32 I'm wrong, that the amount of money contributed by the 33 McLean Forum in respect of this campaign was in the order 34 of $52,000? 35 A. Yes. 36 37 Q. If you go to page 182B -- 38 A. Sorry, is that in the McLean tender bundle? 39 40 Q. In volume 1, I'm sorry, yes. 41 A. 18 -- 42 43 Q. 182B. 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. Just to explain the provenance of this document at 47 182B, this again is a document that's been prepared by

.20/08/2014 56 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 staff of the Commission and it is intended to summarise -- 2 A. Sorry, counsel, my version of 182 in this tender 3 bundle hard copy is not aligned with the versions on the 4 screen. 5 6 Q. 182B. 7 A. Now it is. 8 9 Q. And as I was saying, to explain the provenance of this 10 document, it's a summary document prepared by staff at the 11 Commission which is intended to summarise the effect of 12 documents which are behind the tabs following. 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. And to give some totals in summary form. You'll see 16 that the blue, at the bottom, relates to HSU related 17 transactions and the total figure that's been come up with 18 is $51,884.47 which is very close to your 52,000? 19 A. $116, off the top of my head. 20 21 Q. And then for the FAAA, the total amount expended by 22 McLean Forum, on these calculations, was $71,521. Does 23 that sound about right? 24 A. Counsel, I wouldn't know, I'm sorry. 25 26 Q. You don't know that one? 27 A. No. 28 29 Q. Can I just ask you a couple of questions about some of 30 these payments and you may or may not remember. Page 31 188 -- 32 A. Yes. 33 34 Q. -- is a cheque made out in your favour on 5 December 35 2012 for $4,072.07, that's from McLean Forum. Do you know 36 what that was about? 37 A. Yes, actually I do know. 38 39 Q. Information is on 187 if that helps? 40 A. Sorry, information is on? 41 42 Q. 187. 43 A. Yes, I believe 187 contains an itemised list as to 44 precisely what that was, I think. Would you like me to 45 read it? 46 47 Q. The first one - that says "Phone", does it?

.20/08/2014 57 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 A. It does. 2 3 Q. Is that your handwriting? 4 A. It is. 5 6 Q. And then "James Fox Payment", is that what it says? 7 A. Yes. 8 9 Q. What's that? 10 A. I think Mr Fox was a campaign volunteer who incurred 11 costs related to the doorknocking weekend that the campaign 12 embarked upon. This is a weekend that we embarked upon, 13 I think 10 to 11 November, in which we had about 100, maybe 14 less, people who were organised by the campaign, that is 15 raised by the campaign, trained by the campaign and then 16 deployed by the campaign, predominantly rank and file 17 members, to doorknock HSU members. That payment probably 18 referred to his phone expenses and any food related 19 expenses he incurred to be able to facilitate their lunch, 20 probably, off the top of my head. 21 22 Q. Page 192 is another cheque. Again, that relates to 23 reimbursement for various expenses you incurred, does it? 24 A. Yes, I believe so. Yes, I do believe so. 25 26 Q. Actually, if you go to 193 there's a bit of 27 information, I think. 28 A. Yes. 29 30 Q. What was the membership that was being paid, do you 31 know? 32 A. That expense related to a campaign of which McLean - 33 this was as it was explained to me. I wasn't responsible 34 for this campaign or involved in any way, shape or form in 35 this campaign. But a series of, for want of a better term, 36 people associated with the labour movement had taken 37 exception to the leadership at the Blacktown Workers Club, 38 it is not related to any other matters to which we are 39 presently inquiring. They took exception to the conduct of 40 the leadership of that Blacktown Workers Club. They had a 41 view that they were acting outside of accordance, they had 42 a campaign that was being sustained to essentially effect a 43 change of leadership or at least a change of direction in 44 that club, of which the McLean Forum was one of the people 45 who were involved in it. That was to the best of my 46 information. 47

.20/08/2014 58 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 Q. Can I ask you to come to 232. That's a cheque made 2 out to -- 3 A. Sorry, counsel, I'm yet to reach that point. Yes. 4 5 Q. That's a cheque made out to Mr Hayes for $7,623? 6 A. It is. 7 8 Q. There's a receipt on the next page, 233, and then if 9 you come back to 231 -- 10 A. It is not necessarily - yes, sorry, 231. 11 12 Q. It just gives some information about it. It seems to 13 say "Gerard Hayes" - is that your handwriting, by the way? 14 A. It is. 15 16 Q. It says: 17 18 Gerard Hayes 19 Expenses + honoraria. 20 21 A. Honoraria. 22 23 Q. Honoraria. 24 A. Forgive me for my handwriting there, counsel. 25 26 Q. No, that's quite all right, Mr Mookhey. Are you able 27 to give any explanation now as to how that amount was 28 broken down or calculated? 29 A. I believe not only am I able to give you that 30 explanation, I believe in my own production I provided you 31 with the primary records that were associated with that 32 expense. So I provided you with a whole series of receipts, 33 around which the sum total was paid to Mr Hayes. Those 34 receipts predominantly covered his fuel expenses, his motel 35 expenses, his general campaign related expenses. In fact, 36 I'm fairly positive I provided that for - all those primary 37 records for the entirety of the campaign. 38 39 Q. I see. And what does "honoraria" mean in this 40 context? 41 A. In this context, again, it's similar to the scheme 42 that was exhibited - described to you earlier in respect to 43 the Queensland campaign. Mr Hayes was paid a small 44 allowance to meet any on-costs that he may well have had. 45 46 THE COMMISSIONER: Q. Can I just ask this mechanical 47 question. Was this the way it worked: you would fill out

.20/08/2014 59 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 the cheque-butt, whether it was payable to you or to 2 Mr Hayes or, for all I know, other people, and you would 3 set out the components of the sum on the cheque and then 4 people who had authority to sign on the McLean Forum 5 Limited cheque account would sign the cheque, is that 6 the -- 7 A. The first step - sorry, Commissioner, the only 8 deviation from that system - yes, on the whole, that is 9 correct. But in terms of the sort of maintenance of an 10 accounting system, for want of a better term, that was the 11 responsibility that obviously belonged to the McLean 12 officers and not myself. I maintained the primary records. 13 I provided a summary for them to facilitate their 14 accounting practices. I wasn't necessarily responsible for 15 their accounting practices. 16 17 THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. 18 19 A. Incidentally, I also provided all that information to 20 the Commission as well in my own production. 21 22 MR STOLJAR: Q. Could you come to page 235. 23 A. Yes. 24 25 Q. This is a cheque-butt that's been prepared in the 26 manner, I take it, that the Commissioner just outlined to 27 you? 28 A. Yes. 29 30 Q. That merely deals with honoraria and it's an amount of 31 $10,000? 32 A. It is. I believe - sorry, what was the earlier 33 reference? 232, was that? Yes, it was. Counsel, the 34 first payment was in respect to the honoraria that was due 35 to him, I guess, in respect of - by 20th of the 9th, 2012. 36 You'll see on the second one it's dated 22nd probably - 37 I think that's a 12, for December. Maybe I'm wrong. 38 I could be reading my own handwriting incorrectly, but this 39 was essentially the next payment of honoraria because the 40 campaign had resolved to provide him with it. 41 42 Q. Nothing much turns on it, Mr Mookhey, but I think this 43 is prior to the one at 231. This is July. 44 A. Okay. Well, forgive me, if I've read my handwriting 45 incorrectly. 46 47 Q. In any event, I'm just trying to understand why an

.20/08/2014 60 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 amount of $10,000 was paid by McLean Forum to Mr Hayes for 2 honoraria? 3 A. Yes. The allowance was set and this, incidentally, 4 was the scheme which was adopted in identical form in terms 5 of the payment to Mr Lillicrap. The allowances was 6 generally set roughly to be about $1,000 a week. That was 7 reflective of the fact that Mr Hayes was campaigning 8 generally from 6am to 10pm every night, every day. He was 9 travel thoroughly interstate. The capacity to sort of - he 10 was expected, as are all candidates, generally standing in 11 an election to be able to meet the associated costs that 12 arise from sort of incidental, social encounters, be it a 13 coffee with a member or a delegate, that sort of stuff, but 14 the pro rata sort of view was roughly $1,000 a week. This 15 was obviously for 10 weeks. 16 17 Q. A similar amount, weekly amount, was paid to 18 Mr Lillicrap, was it? 19 A. Yes, but to be fair to Mr Lillicrap, he didn't join 20 the campaign as early as Mr Hayes did. The discrepancy in 21 terms of the amount that was paid is because Mr Hayes was 22 campaigning for a longer period of time than Mr Lillicrap 23 was. 24 25 Q. I see. I'm going to ask you some questions about the 26 Flight Attendants' Association of Australia campaign. 27 Before I do that, can I just ask you a few more points 28 about the Queensland elections in 2010. 29 A. Yes. 30 31 Q. You were describing to me the sort of work that you 32 were doing for the purposes of that campaign. Did you also 33 travel to Melbourne from time to time for the purposes of 34 that campaign? 35 A. No. Not really, no. I don't believe I did. I may 36 have - I mean, I may have had one or two meetings campaign 37 related whilst in Melbourne, but certainly never was the 38 dominant purpose of any trip to Melbourne a campaign. 39 40 Q. Did you travel to Melbourne with Mr Pacey to speak to 41 pollsters? 42 A. No. 43 44 Q. That never happened? 45 A. I spoke to pollsters. I don't believe that 46 conversation happened in Melbourne. It might have. I did 47 definitely speak to pollsters through the course of that

.20/08/2014 61 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 campaign. I don't specifically recall doing it in 2 Melbourne. I recall doing it on the phone in Sydney. 3 4 Q. If I say to you that you travelled to Melbourne to 5 speak to pollsters in connection with the Queensland 6 campaign, you did that in the company of Mr Pacey, do you 7 say that happened or it didn't happen? 8 A. Sorry, my recall is not to that level of detail, I'm 9 sorry. 10 11 Q. You don't remember? 12 A. Not to that level of detail, as in I remember having 13 various meetings with pollsters on a variety of different 14 campaigns, and some of those were in Melbourne. I don't 15 have any specific recall whether Mr Pacey was there or not. 16 17 Q. Separately from that you had many discussions at work, 18 did you not, with Mr Pacey about the Queensland election? 19 A. Yes. Well, when I say "at work", I mean - if you mean 20 by "at work" you mean whilst we were both at the physical 21 premises of the TWU, yes, it's the case that I did have 22 those conversations with them. 23 24 Q. By the way, was it the case that Mr Wong worked on the 25 National Officers election campaign for a number of weeks 26 during 2010? 27 A. Yes. Can I say for a number of weeks that - sorry, 28 counsel, I'm not sure whether or not you're referring to or 29 implying the totality of that time, but he was - Mr Wong 30 was part of a team that helped prepare a contingency 31 campaign in the event that the national leadership and or 32 the New South Wales leadership were to face challenge. 33 I would definitely, definitely refute any suggestion that 34 he was working on that full-time. 35 36 Q. Well, he was working on it full-time for at least 37 several weeks, was he not? 38 A. No. I utterly reject that proposition. 39 40 Q. He was doing that whilst still employed by the New 41 South Wales office? 42 A. He was a volunteer. He was a volunteer on the 43 campaign, but he was certainly - certainly the suggestion 44 that that element required that much time is just - I'd 45 refute. I don't deny his involvement, but I certainly 46 suggest that he wasn't involved anywhere near that time 47 that you're putting to me.

.20/08/2014 62 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 2 Q. Can we come to the flight attendants. You've dealt 3 with this in part in your statement, paragraphs 26 and 4 following. 5 A. Yes. 6 7 Q. You say there that you had the personal friendship 8 with a Mr Rocks. Who is Mr Rocks employed by? 9 A. At that time? 10 11 Q. Yes. 12 A. The Transport Workers' Union of Australia. 13 14 Q. What was his position? 15 A. I don't know. 16 17 Q. But weren't you the Chief of Staff or had you ceased 18 at that point? 19 A. I'd ceased at that point. 20 21 Q. Can I ask you to have a look at page 451 of volume 2 22 of the McLean Forum folders. That's an email to you from 23 Mr Rocks, at the bottom third of the page, and then you 24 respond with some suggested wording. 25 A. Yes. That's the email to which I make reference in my 26 statement. 27 28 Q. Yes. In paragraph 27 you're making reference to that; 29 is that right? 30 A. Yes. 31 32 Q. Just coming back to 451, you've suggested that he 33 write, "This horrific bribe proves how this 8 year old team 34 has run out of ideas" et cetera? 35 A. I do. 36 37 Q. Then he responds: 38 39 Ta, yep, I gave them similar. Trying to 40 look into how much exactly the union is 41 stumping up for the ipads ... 42 43 So this relates to a proposition that one of the tickets in 44 the FAAA campaign would buy iPads? 45 A. Yes. The manner in which it was explained to me, this 46 was prominently an email conversation, but it was said to 47 me one that one of the points of contest in that election

.20/08/2014 63 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 was an offer - I think I believe by the incumbent team to 2 purchase iPads. There was a view being adopted by the 3 opposing team that that wasn't in the interests. I was 4 asked how to present that view. I provided that advice. 5 To be fair, I didn't necessarily, I mean, look too much 6 more beyond - into it than what I've been producing in this 7 email. 8 9 Q. In your email of 5 March 2012, you say, after you've 10 set out the suggested wording: 11 12 Incidentally, how is the project coming 13 along? 14 15 A. Yes. 16 17 Q. And Mr Rocks seems to be responding to that in the 18 second paragraph of this email where he says: 19 20 Got sign off this morning from TS on a way 21 forward. 22 23 What was the project you were referring to? 24 A. The project was making a reference to an earlier 25 document that I provided to Mr Rocks which - I described 26 the circumstances and the progeny of document in that 27 statement. Those what I describe in paragraph 26 of my 28 statement, I produced that document to the Commission. You 29 will see that on the top of that document - I think it's 30 labelled, I think "Aviation Project", that reference to 31 "project" is a reference to that document. How 32 I interpreted his response -- 33 34 Q. I don't mean to cut you off, but is that the document 35 at page 456? 36 A. It is. You will see that in paragraph 2, his 37 concluding sentence of paragraph 2 is: 38 39 So, unfortunately it's not possible to run 40 a nuanced ten-tenths campaign. 41 42 I felt that was a polite way of Mr Rocks telling me that my 43 suggestions were no longer useful to him. 44 45 Q. In any event, you prepared the document at 456 and 46 provided it to Mr Rocks at an earlier stage? In fact that 47 appears at 455.

.20/08/2014 64 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 A. Yes. That's the events that I describe in my 2 paragraph, counsel. 3 4 Q. Do you still have the folder of materials with 5 Mr Kirgan's - I think it's been marked "Kirgan MFI-1", but 6 the folder with "Statement and MFI of Baden Kirgan" on 7 front? 8 A. Yes, I do. 9 10 Q. Could you have a look at page 12. 11 A. Yes. 12 13 Q. Did you have a hand in the drafting of this circular? 14 A. Counsel, up until I've seen this now, I've never seen 15 this document. 16 17 Q. Never seen it. What about page 13? 18 A. Never seen it. Counsel, I do make the point in my 19 statement that I had very little involvement in these 20 elections. 21 22 Q. Can I ask you a question on a different topic. Would 23 you have a look at page 249, that's in volume 1. 24 A. Of which bundle? 25 26 Q. Of the McLean bundle. 27 A. Sorry, counsel, which page number? 28 29 Q. 249. 30 A. Yes. 31 32 Q. That is a cheque-butt and I take it that's your 33 handwriting? 34 A. It is, counsel. 35 36 Q. That related to a cheque which we can see on page 250 37 that McLean Forum drew in favour of the Transport Workers' 38 Union of Australia? 39 A. It is. 40 41 Q. What expenses had the Transport Workers' Union of 42 Australia incurred in connection with the FAAA election? 43 A. Well, my understanding is, as the Transport Workers' 44 Union of Australia has said publicly, and I believe has 45 made representations to a whole variety of other people 46 that have made inquiries into this respect, that certain 47 invoices that would have been paid by the campaigns or the

.20/08/2014 65 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 McLean Forum, were inadvertently paid for by the TWU. Upon 2 the TWU's discovery of that, they made contact with me. 3 I literally just simply brought in the chequebooks I had 4 custody of at the time and facilitated a reimbursement. In 5 terms of what precisely the mistake was, or what expenses 6 were incurred by mistake by the TWU, of which the TWU 7 publicly acknowledged, I'm sorry, I can't - I don't know. 8 9 Q. Do you know whether the TWU made any payments to 10 Jeffries Printers in respect of the FAAA election? 11 A. Counsel, I believe I have produced an email which 12 someone from the TWU has given me an itemised list of what 13 they believe the mistakes were. I simply came in and 14 facilitated that payment. It may have included Jeffries 15 Printing or not, but, to be honest with you, I didn't 16 really pay attention to it. I was asked simply to come in 17 and I did that. 18 19 Q. All right. Are you referring to a document that's at 20 page 466 of volume 2? 21 A. 466 of volume 2. Was that the volume, counsel? 22 23 Q. Yes. The only point I was going to make of that, 466 24 just seems to be -- 25 A. Sorry, counsel, my volume has 465 and 467, but it is 26 omitting 466. If you could put it on the screen -- 27 28 Q. You haven't missed much, Mr Mookhey, because that was 29 the only email that we could see that fell into the 30 category of emails that you were referring to when you said 31 you'd provided it? 32 A. Sorry, counsel, definitely the email I produced to the 33 Commission contained more detail than that which you are 34 showing me. If it is the case, I'm more than happy to 35 arrange a printing if this is indeed an IT problem, which 36 is the reason why you can't see that. 37 38 Q. In any event that, that email apparently had more 39 information about different payments? 40 A. Yes. The version I produced to the Commission 41 contained more information than that which is shown to me 42 on the screen. 43 44 Q. Can I ask you about a different matter. If you come 45 to page 200 of volume 1 -- 46 A. We're still in the McLean bundle and not the Kirgan 47 bundle?

.20/08/2014 66 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 2 Q. Volume 1 now of the McLean bundle. 3 A. Sorry, what was the page number again? 4 5 Q. 200. 6 A. I have arrived at 200. 7 8 Q. That's a cheque drawn in your favour by McLean Forum? 9 A. Yes. 10 11 Q. If you come back to 199, there's some explanation. 12 A. Yes. 13 14 Q. It says, "T Sheldon 4 Pres Expenses". Is that in 15 connection for Mr Sheldon's campaign for president of the 16 ALP. 17 A. It is. 18 19 Q. And, what you incurred expenses on that yourself, did 20 you? 21 A. I did. 22 23 Q. And they were paid for by McLean Forum? 24 A. They were reimbursed to me by the McLean Forum. 25 26 Q. Do you know whether the McLean Forum incurred other 27 expenses in connection with that campaign? 28 A. To the best of my knowledge, that is the only expense 29 incurred by the McLean Forum for that campaign, but 30 I believe that is the case, but my memory might be missing 31 one or two details if that's the case. 32 33 Q. Do you know how else that campaign was funded? Were 34 there other sources? 35 A. Counsel, in respect to that particular election, the 36 funding to which this was a reimbursement for, and the 37 funding to which may otherwise have been incurred not 38 necessarily by either the McLean Forum or specifically any 39 entity called the "Tony Sheldon for president campaign", 40 because no such entity existed, but in keeping with common 41 practice for the election for national senior 42 vice-president and national junior vice-president of the 43 Australian Labor party, there's been a system of election 44 that's existed for those three positions since 2001 45 onwards. Those elections are conducted according to 46 certain rules. Those rules say obviously the campaigns 47 themselves cannot spend, but people can spend on their

.20/08/2014 67 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 behalf. The people who tend to spend on their behalf tend 2 to be associated groupings and, for want of a better term, 3 the shorthand being factions of the Labor Party advocating 4 the case of their candidates. Mr Sheldon was as well with 5 a person by the name of Ms Gai Brodtmann MP were the two 6 candidates endorsed by the National Right. They were 7 contesting election against, I think, two candidates 8 endorsed by the National Left. Both the candidates of the 9 National Left and the National Right, each of their 10 respective factions undertook mailouts in accordance with 11 ALP rules to their members and to other party members. 12 This particular thing refers to essentially a reimbursement 13 of the McLean Forum made, essentially paying for those 14 factional - those mailouts to people who were members of 15 those factions. I would point out that similar things were 16 engaged by all campaigns. In that sense, it wasn't 17 necessarily exceptional to the Sheldon for president 18 campaign. 19 20 Q. Excuse me for one moment. 21 A. I'd also incidentally include that those mailouts 22 included reference to Ms Brodtmann. So technically you 23 could argue that they were in favour of both, as a team. 24 25 Q. Just one last thing, Mr Mookhey. There was a payment 26 of $10,000 from the Transport Logistics Advocacy Training 27 Association to McLean Forum. You can see that in the 28 summary document at 182B volume one of the McLean 29 materials. 30 A. Sorry, counsel, 182B. 31 32 Q. 182B. 33 A. 182B. I'm on 182B. 34 35 Q. On 24 June 2013, you can see a cheque was presented or 36 deposited in the McLean Forum. Excuse me just a moment. 37 So paid by the association to McLean Forum. Do you know 38 anything about that payment or why? 39 A. No, sorry, counsel, I wasn't involved. 40 41 MR STOLJAR: Nothing further. Thank you, Commissioner. 42 43 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Glissan. 44 45 MR GLISSAN: I have nothing at this stage, thank you, 46 Commissioner, unless something arises. 47

.20/08/2014 68 N D MOOKHEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 THE COMMISSIONER: Ms Gerace? 2 3 MS GERACE: No, Commissioner. Thank you. 4 5 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Nolan? 6 7 MR NOLAN: No, Commissioner. 8 9 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Read? 10 11 MR READ: No, Commissioner. 12 13 THE COMMISSIONER: Very well. Is there any objection to 14 the witness being excused. 15 16 MR STOLJAR: Not on my account, Commissioner. 17 18 MR GLISSAN: No. 19 20 THE COMMISSIONER: You're excused from further attendance. 21 22 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Commissioner, and thank you 23 counsel. 24 25

.20/08/2014 69 T M S PACEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 2 Q. Professionals Australia. 3 A. Yes. 4 5 Q. Just briefly, do you have tertiary qualifications? 6 A. I do. 7 8 Q. What are they? 9 A. A Bachelor of Science and a Bachelor of Arts. 10 11 Q. When did you obtain those qualifications? 12 A. 2008. 13 14 Q. From which university? 15 A. Macquarie University, sorry. 16 17 Q. What has been your work history after 2008? 18 A. I started working as the senior electorate officer for 19 Nick Alarich, the Member for Cabramatta. That was 2009. 20 And then from 2010-11 I was with Senator Stephen Hutchins, 21 the Senator for New South Wales, and then with the TWU as 22 the National Executive Officer. 23 24 Q. You started off at the TWU in about July 2010? 25 A. That's correct, yes. 26 27 Q. You were National Executive Officer. Who recruited 28 you to the TWU? 29 A. Tony Sheldon. 30 31 Q. Did he say what he was interested in you for? Did he 32 give -- 33 A. He did. He said that there had been - he'd heard 34 around the Labor traps, essentially, that I was a good 35 campaigner and yeah, wanted to see if I'd want to come and 36 work with the TWU. 37 38 Q. Any particular campaign he was talking about? 39 A. Initially, from the first meeting, no. 40 41 Q. What about after a few other meetings? 42 A. Yes. Then the Queensland campaign did come up. That 43 was particularly the first kind of real meeting that I had 44 with Tony; yes, the Queensland campaign was brought 45 forward. 46 47 Q. What did he say to you about it?

.20/08/2014 70 T M S PACEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 A. Initially, it was that Hughie Williams needed to go, 2 that the union was bleeding members and that it would be 3 beneficial for the union movement. 4 5 Q. If Hughie Williams left - is that what you meant? 6 A. Correct. 7 8 Q. He said that to you, what, before you'd actually 9 started work? 10 A. Correct, yes. 11 12 Q. Is this the case, tell me if this is right or wrong, 13 were you going to be working on the Queensland campaign, as 14 you understood it? 15 A. It was part of a long list of duties. It wasn't 16 something that I was recruited to do, I think is probably 17 the best summation. It was certainly something that was 18 made aware to me from the beginning. 19 20 Q. You're based in Sydney, I take it? 21 A. Yes. 22 23 Q. You're working in the National Office? 24 A. Correct. 25 26 Q. Is the National Office in the same building as the 27 New South Wales office, or was it then? 28 A. It was for the first four weeks and then it moved to 29 Sussex Street. 30 31 Q. Could you have a look please at a folder of materials 32 which has on front "TWU McLean Forum Tender Bundle, 33 Volume 2 of 2"? 34 A. Volume 2 of 2, yes. 35 36 Q. Have a look at page 541. That's your job contract, 37 is it? 38 A. Yes. 39 40 Q. Just as a matter of interest, on page 542, page 2 of 41 the contract, it says: 42 43 As part of your employment you are required 44 to contribute $28.00 per week to a campaign 45 fund. 46 47 Which fund were you contributing to, do you know?

.20/08/2014 71 T M S PACEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 A. I understood it to be a campaign fund. 2 3 Q. Do you know what it was called? 4 A. No. 5 6 Q. Did anyone ever tell you about it? 7 A. I'd always been aware it was a campaign fund. 8 9 Q. That's all you knew? 10 A. Yes. 11 12 Q. But I take it that you did make those payments of $28 13 per week, so far as you knew? 14 A. Correct. 15 16 Q. They just came out of your pay? 17 A. Yes. 18 19 Q. You started off in the National Office and Mr Mookhey 20 was the Chief of Staff? 21 A. Yes. 22 23 Q. Mr Sheldon was there as well? 24 A. Yes. 25 26 Q. When did you first start doing work on the Queensland 27 campaign? 28 A. I think probably late July, early August. 29 30 Q. Who was organising the Queensland campaign in the 31 office? Who was in charge? 32 A. I would think that Scott Connolly was the person who 33 I directly had conversations with. 34 35 Q. What about Mr Mookhey, was he involved? 36 A. Yes, he was, to the point of giving advice and 37 recommendations. 38 39 Q. Advice to who, to you or to others? 40 A. To me, yes. 41 42 Q. Did you have conversations with Mr Mookhey from time 43 to time about it? 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. When I say the Queensland campaign, the 47 National Office was assisting with the campaign operated by

.20/08/2014 72 T M S PACEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 a particular team, Mr Biagini's team? 2 A. Yes. 3 4 Q. Which was opposing Mr Williams' team? 5 A. Yes. 6 7 Q. Did you have occasion to travel to Melbourne to talk 8 to pollsters? 9 A. Yes. 10 11 Q. Did you do that with Mr Mookhey? 12 A. Yes. 13 14 Q. When was that trip? 15 A. I think it was either late July or early August. 16 17 Q. That was to discuss with pollsters matters relating to 18 Mr Biagini's campaigning in Queensland? 19 A. Yes. 20 21 Q. How long were you in Melbourne for? 22 A. A day. 23 24 Q. Did you move to Brisbane to work on the campaign? 25 A. I did, yes. 26 27 Q. When did you go? 28 A. September. 29 30 Q. September. Roughly when? 31 A. I really can't say, sorry. 32 33 Q. What did you do then? Did you actually live in 34 Brisbane? 35 A. Yes, I did. 36 37 Q. Did you rent a place or how did it work? 38 A. Yes, we rented a place in Cleveland. 39 40 Q. Who was at that unit or house, or what was it; a 41 serviced apartment? 42 A. It was a short-term furnished apartment - townhouse, 43 sorry. 44 45 Q. How many people stayed there? 46 A. At its height, six I think. 47

.20/08/2014 73 T M S PACEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 Q. Sounds cosy. 2 A. Yes. 3 4 Q. Six people. When you started, what, you were there on 5 your own? Who moved in? 6 A. The first was Michael Wong and he came up I think 7 almost a couple of days into the campaign. 8 9 Q. When did the campaign start? 10 A. The framework for the campaign began in that early - 11 sorry, that early August,late July period. 12 13 Q. Yes. 14 A. But in terms of - I see that as framework building, 15 I don't see that as the campaign proper. I would say that 16 the campaign proper began when I got up to Queensland. 17 18 Q. Which was in September? 19 A. Correct, yes. 20 21 Q. Because you did a bit of work before then I think. 22 Say, for example, if I take you to 322 -- 23 A. In the same volume, sir? 24 25 Q. Yes. These are some emails you exchanged in late 26 July 2010. This was some early work on it, was it? 27 A. Yes, I think so, sorry. 28 29 Q. Do you see at the top of that page it says, "Time for 30 Change" - this is an email address - "Time for Change" and 31 then "jssc35". Who was that, do you know? 32 A. That's Scott Connolly. 33 34 Q. I note, by the way, that you're responding on a g-mail 35 and he is dealing with it on g-mail. Was there any 36 particular reason for that? 37 A. Early on I had been instructed to go to use my 38 personal email account, for the main reason of prudence, 39 essentially. There was my work, which was as the 40 National Executive Officer and then there was this side 41 project essentially. 42 43 Q. Who told you that? 44 A. Daniel Mookhey told me that. 45 46 Q. Did everyone use g-mail, generally speaking, after 47 that?

.20/08/2014 74 T M S PACEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 A. Pretty much, yes. 2 3 Q. On page 325 Mr Connolly has sent an email with, it 4 says in about the fourth line. 5 6 ... some rough words for some flyers I have 7 been thinking of. 8 9 If you can work these up as drafts for a 10 meeting on Friday afternoon that would be 11 great. 12 13 And then he says: 14 15 #1 16 To Linfox & Toll Members. 17 18 So that's a proposed flyer to go to those persons, I take 19 it? 20 A. Yes. 21 22 Q. And then numbered 2 on the next page, 326, it says: 23 24 #2 Williams Raids Members Funds to a Pay 25 Slush Fund Debt. 26 27 That's talking about a payment of $565. And then says and 28 this is the third paragraph under #2: 29 30 The deductions from Mr Giddens' wages were 31 paid into a secret slush fund Hughie has 32 been forcing all TWU officials to pay in to 33 to win his re-election. 34 35 Did you work that up into a flyer or do you not remember? 36 A. I don't recall, sorry. 37 38 Q. It was pretty common, though, wasn't it, for officials 39 to be paying money into what's called there a slush fund? 40 A. Yes, it was. 41 42 Q. Indeed, the National Office had one itself, as we've 43 seen? 44 A. Correct, yes. 45 46 Q. Did you work up these into flyers? 47 A. I can't recall.

.20/08/2014 75 T M S PACEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 2 Q. Who did you report to when you were working on the 3 campaign? Did you have a kind of boss and who was that? 4 A. Yes. It was Scott. 5 6 Q. Scott Connolly? 7 A. Scott Connolly, yes. 8 9 Q. What was the chain of command? Who did he report to? 10 A. I'm not entirely sure. I discussed matters with Scott 11 and with Daniel and - Scott and Daniel and Stephen, 12 essentially. 13 14 Q. Stephen Donnelly? 15 A. Correct, yes. 16 17 Q. Was Stephen Donnelly among the six people in the 18 townhouse? 19 A. That's correct. 20 21 Q. Mr Mookhey wasn't in Brisbane, though, was he? 22 A. That's correct. 23 24 Q. So when you say you discussed it with him, you did 25 that on the phone, did you? 26 A. Yes. 27 28 Q. How often were you having phone calls with him? 29 A. I can't - I can't really - if you want to give me an - 30 to give you an estimate, maybe two or three times a week. 31 32 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Stoljar, you are going to be more 33 than a few minutes, I imagine, with Mr Pacey. 34 35 MR STOLJAR: Yes. 36 37 THE COMMISSIONER: I think we had better adjourn. We will 38 adjourn until 2pm. 39 40 LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT 41 42 43 44 45 46 47

.20/08/2014 76 T M S PACEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 UPON RESUMPTION: 2 3 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Stoljar. 4 5 MR STOLJAR: Q. Mr Pacey, I just want to ask you about 6 some expenses or payments that you were reimbursed. Could 7 you come, please, to page 257 of volume 1 of the McLean 8 Forum bundle. That's a cheque that seems to have been 9 drawn in your favour for $7,355. Was that while you were 10 staying up in Queensland? 11 A. I'm sorry, I'm not quite sure of the date. 12 13 Q. I think on the next page it says - the cheque was 14 presented 8 December, if you look at 258. 15 A. It would be something to do with the campaign. 16 17 Q. How did it work? Did you incur expenses and get 18 refunded? 19 A. No. 20 21 Q. Who was paying your salary at this time? 22 A. On the campaign, sorry, is that what you're after? 23 24 Q. How long were you in Queensland for? 25 A. I think about eight weeks. 26 27 Q. Eight weeks. From, I think you said, September some 28 time? 29 A. I think so, yes. 30 31 Q. Through to November some time? 32 A. Pretty much, yes. 33 34 Q. You were still receiving a salary from the National 35 Office during that period, were you? 36 A. I was on annual leave and then I was on leave without 37 pay. 38 39 Q. We'll come back to that. Were you incurring expenses 40 at that time, or what was that payment for, do you know? 41 A. I can't tell you what that payment was for, no. 42 43 Q. If you come to 259, I think it says, "Tom Pacey. 44 Salary and reimbursements". Do you see that? 45 A. Yes. 46 47 Q. A figure of 10,518. Just going off the bank

.20/08/2014 77 T M S PACEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 statements, it looks like a cheque that was presented - 2 this is on page 260 - in late November, it looks like? 3 A. Mmm. 4 5 Q. It is said to be for salary and reimbursements. Are 6 you able to identify what that was for? 7 A. No. What I can say is that I'm perplexed by the word 8 "salary", mainly because I never received a salary other 9 than my TWU salary from the National Office. 10 11 Q. From the National Office? 12 A. Yes, yes. 13 14 Q. I'll show you a document - I don't have any copies but 15 it's just been handed to us. It seems to be an email from 16 yourself to Daniel Mookhey of 7 December 2010. That sets 17 out a breakdown of the manner in which the $7,355.78 has 18 been calculated? 19 A. Correct, yes. 20 21 Q. Just from my quick look of the document before 22 I handed it to you, it relates to things like rent-a-car 23 and other expenses that you'd incurred presumably in 24 connection with your time in Brisbane? 25 A. That's correct, yes. 26 27 MR STOLJAR: I tender that email of 7 December 2010. 28 29 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Does anyone want to see it 30 before -- 31 32 MR GLISSAN: I'd like to see it, if I may, Commissioner. 33 I don't know that I'm concerned about its admissibility. 34 35 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. 36 37 MR GLISSAN: Thanks very much. 38 39 THE COMMISSIONER: Ms Gerace, did you want to see it? 40 41 MS GERACE: No, Commissioner. 42 43 THE COMMISSIONER: That will be Pacey MFI-1. 44 45 PACEY MFI#1 EMAIL DATED 07/12/2010 46 47 MR STOLJAR: Q. In addition to the assistance provided

.20/08/2014 78 T M S PACEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 by McLean Forum in the TWU National Office, did any other 2 entities provide donations or assistance to the Biagini 3 campaign in Queensland? 4 A. When I was up in Brisbane, the HSU had one of their 5 employees come up. I'm unsure of the nature of their 6 arrangements in terms of if it was annual leave or 7 whatever. 8 9 Q. Was her name Ms Angela Humphries? 10 A. Correct, yes. There were a number of people from New 11 South Wales Labor that had come up: Pat Cook - 12 Patrick Cook, Amber Setchell, Michael Buckland all came up. 13 Yes, that's it. And then in Victoria, Xavier Williams. 14 15 Q. Who is Xavier Williams? 16 A. He came up with Stephen. 17 18 Q. Oh, Stephen Nolan? 19 A. Yes. 20 21 Q. Some of these were staying in the house with you, were 22 they? 23 A. Yes, apart from Angela. 24 25 Q. How long were they all there? For that same period of 26 time as you or some different period? 27 A. Different times. Patrick was up there for the longest 28 but Amber and - Amber, Xavier and Michael were at different 29 and varying lengths. 30 31 Q. Is "Michael" Michael Wong? 32 A. Michael Buckland. 33 34 Q. From the TWU, whether the New South Wales or the 35 National Office, Mr Wong was up in Queensland? 36 A. That's correct, yes. 37 38 Q. Was anyone else up in Queensland? 39 A. No. 40 41 Q. You mention that you'd taken annual leave. Can I just 42 take you to some of those documents relevant to that. It 43 is in the second volume, Mr Pacey, page 545 or thereabouts? 44 A. Sorry, what was that? 45 46 Q. In volume 2 -- 47 A. Yes.

.20/08/2014 79 T M S PACEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 2 Q. -- if you have a look at 545. 3 A. 545. 4 5 Q. This is a printout of your leave history from the 6 National Office's records? 7 A. Mmm-hmm. 8 9 Q. Looking at the period 2010, you took a period of 10 annual leave, as you can see from the top line, from 11 1 November through to 5 November. 12 A. Mmm-hmm. 13 14 Q. And then still focusing on the period 2010, if you 15 come down the page, you took a period of annual leave from 16 8 November through to 12 November. 17 A. Mmm-hmm. 18 19 Q. So those are the two periods of annual leave you took? 20 A. Yes. 21 22 Q. And then, just for completeness, there was a document 23 produced, it's on the next page, page 546, where Ms Sweeney 24 asks that you be paid holiday pay for the week of 25 5 November. Who is Patricia Sweeney, by the way? 26 A. She was the financial officer, I think is the title. 27 28 Q. And then the next page, page 547, you put in an 29 application to take certain days of leave, Thursday and 30 Friday of each week; is that right? 31 A. Yes. 32 33 Q. Through from 4 October to 26 November? 34 A. Correct, yes. 35 36 Q. Did that relate to the -- 37 A. I really don't recall, sorry. 38 39 Q. That doesn't come up on the employee leave history 40 form on page 545 that I could see, unless you can point to 41 it, Mr Pacey. Just take a moment and have a look. 42 A. I agree, yes. 43 44 Q. Did you end up not pursuing that application for 45 taking the Thursday and the Friday off? 46 A. I really don't know, sorry. 47

.20/08/2014 80 T M S PACEY (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 Q. You don't know. Is this the position, you took the 2 two weeks or so of annual leave beginning on 5 November 3 and, other than that, you were just paid in the ordinary 4 course by the National Office? 5 A. My recollection on this is relatively clear. 6 7 Q. Yes. 8 A. I recall that I was - I wasn't going up there and 9 being paid. Certainly, my recollection was that 10 particularly at the end of the campaign, for me, 11 personally, in terms of my finances were getting very, very 12 tight due to the fact that I wasn't able - like, there was 13 no money coming in, so I'm slightly unsure in terms of 14 these types of applications of annual leave. I would have 15 done it in conjunction with Patricia and most likely with 16 Daniel as well. 17 18 Q. You're saying that that's your recollection but you 19 can't shed any more light on the documents I've taken you 20 to? 21 A. That's correct, yes. 22 23 Q. The documents I've been taking you to were produced in 24 answer to a Notice to Produce, Mr Pacey. Just for 25 completeness, if you go to page 535, there's a copy of that 26 notice. 27 A. Sure. Yes. 28 29 Q. Were you involved in any way with the production in 30 answer to that notice? 31 A. No. 32 33 Q. When did you leave the National Office, by the way? 34 A. December 2011. 35 36 MR STOLJAR: I have nothing further. Thank you, 37 Commissioner. 38 39 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Glissan? 40 41 MR GLISSAN: Yes, thank you, Commissioner. 42 43

.20/08/2014 81 T M S PACEY (Mr Glissan) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 2 Q. May I begin by asking you this: in general terms, 3 when you went up to Queensland to work on the Queensland 4 campaign, was it your understanding that you were doing 5 that, in a sense, as a volunteer to assist in the campaign? 6 A. Yes. 7 8 Q. In order to achieve that, you said a few moments ago 9 that you had taken some leave without pay? 10 A. Yes. 11 12 Q. And you had taken some annual leave? 13 A. That's correct, yes. 14 15 Q. In relation to the leave without pay, was the 16 situation that your salary ceased to be paid for that 17 period? 18 A. That's correct, yes. 19 20 Q. And that for that period you were effectively provided 21 with a substitution for that, eventually, by money that was 22 paid to you from the McLean Foundation? 23 A. I wasn't aware of what the Foundation was, but also it 24 was more of gift at the end. 25 26 Q. What was described as a an honorarium? 27 A. To a certain point, yes. I didn't - it wasn't 28 something that I sought. 29 30 Q. And it wasn't an expectation you had that you would be 31 paid for that period? 32 A. That's correct, yes. 33 34 Q. I'm going to show you a couple of documents in a 35 moment. Is it also fair to say that for part of the time 36 you were in Queensland, you were paid by the National 37 Office because you took over part of Mr Connolly's duties 38 while he was on paternity or maternity leave? 39 A. To a point, yes. I can't recall too much, sorry. 40 41 Q. All right. That's fair enough, I suppose, after the 42 amount of time that's gone by. Did you ever see a 43 statement of duties that was prepared in relation to a work 44 plan for you while you were in Queensland in relation to 45 the TWU aviation section? 46 A. Could I have a look at that, please? 47

.20/08/2014 82 T M S PACEY (Mr Glissan) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 Q. Yes, please. If I can just show you this document. 2 There is another document attached to it which I will 3 remove. 4 A. Yes. 5 6 Q. Have you seen that document before? 7 A. Potentially. It was a long time ago. 8 9 Q. You don't have a recollection, but you do have a 10 recollection of performing some of that work while you were 11 from in relation to the aviation -- 12 A. I recall that I was - I was effectively, you know, 13 learning the ropes, as it were, as I was relatively new 14 into the organisation, coming from a political background. 15 So Scott really did take me under his wing and did show me 16 a fair few things, particularly in this type of sphere. 17 18 Q. Thank you. Perhaps I might have that document back. 19 It ought to be at least marked for identification, 20 Commissioner. I don't know what practice you have adopted, 21 Commissioner -- 22 23 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Stoljar? 24 25 MR STOLJAR: I haven't seen it, Commissioner. 26 27 MR GLISSAN: -- but I have no difficulty with my learned 28 friend seeing it. 29 30 MR STOLJAR: No objection, Commissioner. 31 32 THE COMMISSIONER: Does any other legal representative 33 want to see it? 34 35 MS GERACE: I would, Commissioner. 36 37 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. 38 39 MR GLISSAN: I'm just waiting for that document to be 40 marked, Mr Pacey. 41 42 THE COMMISSIONER: Any objection, Ms Gerace? 43 44 MS GERACE: Is it being tendered now, Commissioner? 45 46 THE COMMISSIONER: It is slightly confusing. What we call 47 MFIs are actually exhibits, in effect, they are in

.20/08/2014 83 T M S PACEY (Mr Glissan) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 evidence. 2 3 MS GERACE: Commissioner, essentially I have no objection, 4 but I have not seen it before and I have no instructions in 5 relation to it, that's my difficulty. 6 7 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. I think what we'll do is receive 8 it into evidence, subject to any objection you want to make 9 after getting instructions. That will be Pacey MFI-2. 10 11 PACEY MFI#2 STATEMENT OF DUTIES RELATING TO WORK PLAN 12 13 MR GLISSAN: Thank you, Commissioner. 14 15 Q. Mr Pacey, do I understand your evidence to be that 16 this now being the best part of four years ago, your 17 recollection isn't as precise as it might be about those 18 events? 19 A. That's correct, yes. 20 21 Q. May I suggest to you - and I'm going to show you a 22 couple of documents in a moment - there were some emails 23 that passed between you and Mr Daniel Mookhey in November 24 2010 about how your work in Queensland would operate, and 25 may I hand you these two documents and I will then ask you 26 about them. Please let me know when you've been able to 27 read them. Do you recall seeing those emails? 28 A. No, sorry. 29 30 Q. Do you recall writing the email, the first email dated 31 4 November? 32 A. Sorry, no. 33 34 Q. Would it be fair to say that you were filling in for 35 Scott until about 3 November and that you would be on leave 36 without pay from 3 November to the beginning of December, 37 subject to the leave period you took? 38 A. I honestly can't recall any of this, sorry. 39 40 Q. Thank you. Perhaps they could just be returned. 41 42 THE COMMISSIONER: Perhaps Mr Stoljar can have a look at 43 them. 44 45 MR GLISSAN: Certainly. There's no secrecy about them, 46 Commissioner. 47

.20/08/2014 84 T M S PACEY (Mr Glissan) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 THE COMMISSIONER: There's no need to delay if you're 2 happy to -- 3 4 MR GLISSAN: No, agreed. Thank you. 5 6 Q. Mr Pacey, let me ask you just these few general 7 questions. You told us that you had obtained your 8 university degrees, I think, and then you became an 9 electoral officer with a member for Cabramatta? 10 A. Correct. 11 12 Q. Was that after you graduated? 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. So that your career history was that you worked for 16 the Member for Cabramatta - who I take it was an ALP 17 member? 18 A. Correct. 19 20 Q. You then worked for Senator Hutchins who I think is an 21 ALP Senator? 22 A. Yes. 23 24 Q. And then went to work for the Transport Workers' Union 25 of Australia? 26 A. Yes. 27 28 Q. Would it be fair to say that you had a strong 29 Australian Labor Party or labour movement background? 30 A. That's correct. 31 32 Q. And a strong interest in it? 33 A. Yes. 34 35 Q. When you went to work for the TWU, it was with a view 36 to continuing a career in the labour movement in one way or 37 another? 38 A. That's correct, yes. 39 40 Q. And as you said a moment ago, you were at that stage 41 young and inexperienced? 42 A. Yes. 43 44 Q. One of the things that was discussed with you at the 45 time you took on the job with the TWU was, you said, that 46 both Mr Sheldon and I think Mr Mookhey had spoken to you 47 about the need for changes in Queensland?

.20/08/2014 85 T M S PACEY (Mr Glissan) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 A. That's correct. 2 3 Q. And that there were difficulties with the Queensland 4 Branch? 5 A. Yes. 6 7 Q. Was it your intention at that stage to pursue a career 8 to the extent you could with the TWU? 9 A. That's right. 10 11 Q. Would you agree that it was in your interests, 12 personal interests, as well as the interests of the union, 13 for you to develop relationships with people in the union 14 around Australia? 15 A. That's correct, yes. 16 17 Q. And going to Queensland and participating in those 18 Queensland elections was something that would be something 19 capable of furthering your own career, as well as advancing 20 the interests of the union? 21 A. I think that's a fair comment. 22 23 Q. Was it in that context then - I think you agreed with 24 me earlier - that you volunteered to participate in working 25 on the Queensland campaign? 26 A. To a point, yes. There was, you know, the 27 understanding as well that there was a union that wasn't 28 kind of working at full capacity. Certainly it was 29 something that I kind of took on board and went, "Well, 30 this seems important." 31 32 Q. Did you see it as an opportunity for you as well as 33 some to fix the union, or what? 34 A. To an extent, but I wouldn't say that, you know, it 35 was all pervasive. Certainly I would say to you that there 36 was a certain amount of this is - there has to be something 37 for justice. If a union is bleeding members then - and for 38 the sake of an apparent arcane individual that is holding 39 up the rest of the union, well, as you've already said in 40 terms of my value-set, that is something that was important 41 to me. 42 43 Q. It was in that context that you went to Queensland? 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. You were prepared to do it at your own expense, in 47 part, when you took that period of leave without pay?

.20/08/2014 86 T M S PACEY (Mr Glissan) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. You were at pains, I think, in your earlier evidence 4 to indicate to my learned friend, Mr Stoljar, that you were 5 keeping separate the work you did for the Transport 6 Workers' Union as a union operative, and the work you did 7 on the campaign in Queensland as part of the Queensland 8 election campaign? 9 A. That's correct. 10 11 Q. And so it was in that context, and I don't want to go 12 over and over this, but you took your annual holidays and 13 you applied those to working in the Queensland election - 14 yes? 15 A. Yes. 16 17 Q. And you also took leave without pay? 18 A. Correct. 19 20 MR GLISSAN: Yes. Thank you, Mr Pacey. 21 22 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ms Gerace. 23 24 MS GERACE: Thank you. 25 26

.20/08/2014 87 T M S PACEY (Ms Gerace) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 A. Yes, I was. 2 3 Q. Were you also involved in the 5Star trucking program? 4 A. I was. 5 6 Q. Were there other projects being undertaken by you for 7 the head office in Sydney? 8 A. Yes, there was. 9 10 Q. When you commenced working for the TWU in Sydney, was 11 the majority of your time spent on TWU business? 12 A. At the start, yes. 13 14 Q. Can I ask you about the period you went to Queensland 15 just before the campaign commenced properly and you say you 16 went on leave. Do you recall the last work that you did 17 for TWU head office in Queensland, if any, before the 18 campaign kicked off? 19 A. There was a - I don't recall the exact timing, but 20 there was a meeting where myself and Scott Connolly were in 21 the Brisbane Fair Work Commission, Michael Burns, the 22 Transport Workers' Union legal officer was in Sydney and 23 the company who we were with - and I think it was one of 24 those ones that was on the list that may have been provided 25 - was there as the opponents, essentially, for the 26 enterprise agreement negotiations. 27 28 Q. From the time that you appeared in the Fair Work 29 Commission, how soon after that did the campaign commence? 30 A. Pretty much after that. 31 32 Q. In terms of your recollection of being on leave or 33 taking annual leave, how soon after your appearance in the 34 Fair Work Commission did you either take annual leave or go 35 on leave without pay? 36 A. I had thought that I went - I had gone on annual 37 leave, essentially, not after that but the day after that 38 had been completed. My understanding was that I was from 39 that day onwards either taking leave without pay or leave, 40 annual leave. 41 42 Q. For the entire time you were in Queensland? 43 A. That was my recollection, yes. 44 45 Q. You were taken today to some records which indicate 46 two payments being made to you, and I think you were shown 47 one document in relation to the $7,335 payment being a

.20/08/2014 88 T M S PACEY (Ms Gerace) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 claim for reimbursement expenses. In relation to the 2 second payment, are you able to give any indication what 3 you think that payment represented? 4 A. As it said, salary and reimbursements. I would think 5 that there were potentially some other ancillary things 6 that had still not come through, so I was seeking repayment 7 for those, and I assume that the "salary" was this gift, or 8 as it's been stated potentially by others, an honorarium as 9 well, but certainly, yes, I'm not too sure about that kind 10 of cachet. 11 12 Q. If you're able to assist, do you have any recollection 13 now of how much that gift was, over and above whatever was 14 being claimed as disbursements? 15 A. I have a recollection that it was about $4,000 and 16 that was for the time that I was on leave without pay. 17 18 Q. Did anyone discuss that with you before it was given 19 to you? 20 A. Daniel Mookhey was the one that basically said - 21 essentially offered it and kind of gave it to me. 22 23 Q. Was that before or after you had been involved in the 24 Queensland campaign? 25 A. After. 26 27 MS GERACE: I have no further questions. 28 29 THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Ms Gerace. Mr Nolan? 30 31 MR NOLAN: No, Commissioner. 32 33 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Read? 34 35 MR READ: No questions, Commissioner. 36 37 THE COMMISSIONER: Very well. Mr Stoljar? 38 39 MR STOLJAR: Nothing further, thank you, Commissioner. 40 41 THE COMMISSIONER: May the witness be excused? 42 43 MR STOLJAR: Yes, Commissioner. 44 45 THE COMMISSIONER: Any opposition? Thank you very much. 46 You are excused and you can leave the box now. 47

.20/08/2014 89 T M S PACEY (Ms Gerace) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 2 3

.20/08/2014 90 M T S WONG (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 A. About the year when the cachet from attending Charles 2 Sturt University fell beneath that of University of Sydney 3 and UTS. 4 5 Q. What year might that be? 6 A. I started in 1999. 7 8 Q. What was your work experience after that? 9 A. I did public affairs and corporate commerce for the 10 Department of Education and Training, as it was then known. 11 I worked in trade journalism across several different 12 sectors, aged care, nursing, secondary and tertiary 13 education. I did corporate communications for CPA 14 Australia. I spent some time overseas and on returning 15 from overseas - oh, sorry, I should add that I worked as a 16 sub-editor for the Riverina Media Group in 2004-5, and 17 I started with the TWU in November - 2 November 2009. 18 19 Q. Was that with the National Office of the TWU? 20 A. Yes, as a contractor. 21 22 Q. When you say "contractor", it wasn't a permanent 23 position? 24 A. No, it was a five-month media officer contract to act 25 as backfill, I guess they call it, when there's too much 26 work going on for other staff. So my task was to help 27 Mr Sheldon's press secretary work on media matters and 28 other communications matters and in addition to that, I was 29 asked by Mr Mookhey to write or to procure services for a 30 redesigned Federal website. 31 32 Q. Just taking those in steps, I think you said you were 33 assisting the press secretary; is that what you said? 34 A. Yes, that's right. 35 36 Q. What was the name of that gentleman? 37 A. That would be Mr Seth Tenkate. 38 39 Q. Is that T-E-N-K-A-T-E? 40 A. Yes. I was hired on his recommendation. I had worked 41 with him before, and he and I are friends. 42 43 Q. And then -- 44 A. I was hired for my technical skills. I have never 45 been a member of a union or a political party until I was 46 compelled to be, so when working for the union. 47

.20/08/2014 91 M T S WONG (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 Q. You reported to Mr Tenkate and to Mr Mookhey; is that 2 right? 3 A. Yes, absolutely. But the way that the office runs is 4 really shambolic and that's why there's such a massive 5 turnover. There are no real established organisational 6 principles, and everything is at the whim of the national 7 secretary. So, for instance, Tony Sheldon - there were 8 normal lines of reporting. Notionally I reported to 9 Mr Tenkate, Mr Mookhey, but Tony Sheldon might rush into 10 the office in a flap and, you know, sort of -- 11 12 MR GLISSAN: Commissioner, I object to this as not being a 13 responsive answer to the question that was asked. 14 15 THE COMMISSIONER: I think Mr Stoljar agrees. 16 17 MR STOLJAR: Yes. 18 19 Q. I think, Mr Wong, if you just try and focus on the 20 answer and just -- 21 A. I was actually answering the question. 22 23 Q. If you just focus on the question and just try as best 24 you can just to give a short answer that is responsive. 25 A. Okay. Yes, no problem. Sorry, yes, I reported to 26 Seth Tenkate and Daniel Mookhey. 27 28 Q. Right. 29 A. And occasionally to Mr Sheldon. 30 31 Q. Thank you. After about five months, did you move 32 across to the New South Wales office? 33 A. Yes, I did. 34 35 Q. At the end of your contract? 36 A. Yes. Yes. On their recommendation. 37 38 Q. And did you take up - what sort of position did you 39 take up in the New South Wales office? 40 A. I went - Daniel referred me to Wayne Forno and 41 Garth Mulholland. They were advertising for a media 42 officer. I applied for that position, but in the event 43 they selected Ms Tanie Harris-Sansey. Garth then said that 44 he was so impressed with my work that they were going to 45 create a new position of internal communications officer 46 and that was the position that I was offered and accepted. 47

.20/08/2014 92 M T S WONG (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 Q. What were the nature of your duties as communications 2 officer? 3 A. Broadly speaking - well, I did some media, too, but in 4 a strictly defined role. I wrote, redesigned and managed 5 the contract of TWU News, which is the members' journal. 6 I wrote the fortnightly electronic direct mail and the new 7 tasks within that position were the the creation and 8 execution of a very extensive paper direct mail program, 9 and the production of quarterly industry updates across 10 13 sub-sectors. 11 12 Q. At some stage you did some work for the Queensland 13 campaign of Mr Biagini; is that right? 14 A. Yes, that's right. 15 16 Q. That was later on in 2010? 17 A. Yes. I went up there, I think, in the first week of 18 October, but - yes. 19 20 Q. Between about March 2010 and, sorry, what did you say, 21 the first week of October -- 22 A. I think I got there the first week of October, but 23 again I'll take the advice of the extensive evidentiary 24 information. 25 26 Q. Were you working full-time for the New South Wales 27 office during that period, though, from March through to 28 early October? 29 A. Sure was. They got excellent value for my work. 30 31 Q. Did you do any work for the National Office during 32 that time? 33 A. Yes. I think the common thread, I suppose, would be 34 Daniel Mookhey. Daniel asked me to work on Wayne Forno's 35 and Tony Sheldon's election campaign. From I think - it 36 was about two weeks and it would have been from 37 mid-September to the end of September. I'm basing that on 38 the fact that there was - the last edit dates from 39 electronically stored documents was on 30 September. 40 41 Q. Did you - but -- 42 A. While I was being employed by the New South Wales 43 Branch, during work hours with union resources. 44 45 Q. You went across - did you stay physically in the 46 New South Wales office or did you go to the National 47 Office?

.20/08/2014 93 M T S WONG (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 A. No. I worked 16 feet from Tony Sheldon's desk. 2 3 Q. But did you stay in the New South Wales office -- 4 A. No, because -- 5 6 Q. -- or did you go across -- 7 A. -- Tony Sheldon was at Sussex Street. 8 9 Q. I'm sorry. So you worked in Sussex Street for a 10 couple of weeks, did you? 11 A. Yes, that's right, using their - using union 12 resources. 13 14 Q. You were working on the national campaign, were you? 15 A. The national and the New South Wales campaigns, yes. 16 17 Q. Then you went up and worked on the Biagini campaign 18 in, I think you said, early October? 19 A. Yes, that sounds right. 20 21 Q. And were you -- 22 A. It was at Daniel's suggestion too. 23 24 Q. Were you living up there? 25 A. Yes, I was. 26 27 Q. Were you living in a townhouse with others? 28 A. Yes. We called it "Animal House". 29 30 Q. Who else was working on the campaign, the Biagini 31 campaign, from the TWU? 32 A. From the TWU, well, Tony Sheldon, Michael Kaine and 33 Scott Connolly were the chief architects. They then gave 34 their express authority on everything to the relevant 35 chiefs of staff and Daniel Mookhey was, for want of a 36 better word, the mastermind of the operation. Garth was 37 consulted as a matter of protocol, and because he had to 38 arrange the signing of the cheques. 39 40 Q. Did you say Garth? 41 A. Sorry, Mr Mulholland was consulted because he needed 42 to get the cheques signed, countersigned by Mr Forno, but 43 Mr Mulholland had no other practical effect on the 44 campaign. 45 46 Q. Was Mr Pacey up there as well? 47 A. Yes. I first - I first saw Tom when I went to

.20/08/2014 94 M T S WONG (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 National Office to work on the New South Wales and National 2 election campaigns, but I did not meet him then. I met him 3 over the phone after being introduced to him by Daniel 4 Mookhey prior to going to the - joining the campaign, and 5 then I met him in person in Cleveland and from there we 6 became friends, and I continue to have a very high regard 7 for Tom Pacey. 8 9 Q. Was there a Ms Humphries also working up there? 10 A. Yes. 11 12 Q. From the HSU? 13 A. Yes. And I think - yes. She was there on the orders 14 of Michael Williamson, and she had been requested to join 15 the campaign by Scott Connolly because the official - the 16 TWU official who was tasked with managing the member data 17 and the call logs -- 18 19 Q. Are you talking now from your own knowledge or is this 20 just -- 21 A. Yes, from my own knowledge. Sorry, I forgot to add 22 that Angela Brown and Scott Connolly of course were working 23 on the campaign as well. 24 25 Q. All right. 26 A. But Angela Brown had been tasked -- 27 28 Q. You mean Angela Humphries? 29 A. No, only Angela Brown. 30 31 Q. I'm sorry. 32 A. Sorry. There are two Angelas. 33 34 Q. Okay. 35 A. Angela Brown is a - there's lots of Angelas; lots of 36 Michaels. 37 38 Q. Okay. Well, just pausing there. What was the working 39 arrangement? Were you on annual leave or were you just 40 being paid in the ordinary course, or what? 41 A. Sorry to not answer this question, but I need to 42 finish the other question because it explains why 43 Angela Humphries was on the campaign. 44 45 Q. All right. What do you wish to say? 46 A. I wish to say that the sole reason for Angela 47 Humphries being up there was that Angela Brown was not up

.20/08/2014 95 M T S WONG (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 to the task that she was given, which was running the 2 member data and the call data and updating all that 3 information nightly. So in desperation Scott Connolly 4 asked Angela and Daniel to - for help, and so Angela joined 5 the campaign, on Michael Williamson's orders. 6 7 Q. Can we just come back to my question. Working up on 8 the Queensland election, had you taken annual leave or were 9 you just working in the ordinary course, or how did it 10 work? 11 A. So I guess you'd know by now that when -- 12 13 THE COMMISSIONER: Q. Mr Wong, I think you have just got 14 to, if necessary, when a question is asked, pause, frame 15 your answer and then answer. I think you are tending to 16 sort of give background that Mr Stoljar doesn't necessarily 17 want. 18 A. Okay, yes. Thank you, Commissioner. 19 20 MR STOLJAR: Q. Were you on annual leave or were you 21 working in the ordinary course? What was the working 22 arrangement? 23 A. I was notionally on annual leave. 24 25 Q. Did you take annual leave to enable you to carry out 26 the work in Queensland? 27 A. Under Ray Hays, Garth Mulholland and Daniel Mookhey's 28 instruction, yes, I signed that form to maintain the patina 29 of legality. 30 31 Q. We've been provided with a document today. The TWU 32 NSW has produced some documents today, Commissioner, so 33 they're not in the book. I'll provide Mr Wong and you, 34 Commissioner, with a copy. 35 A. Thank you very much. 36 37 Q. I've had little time to look at this document, 38 Mr Wong, or these documents, but there's an application for 39 annual leave dated 1 October - that's the first document? 40 A. Yes. 41 42 Q. With leave dates stipulated from 25 October to 43 19 November, and that's roughly the period of the campaign, 44 is it? 45 A. Well, not exactly, no. The campaign ended on the 26th 46 and that's when I was there, to the 26th and past the 26th. 47

.20/08/2014 96 M T S WONG (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 Q. 26th of what, November? 2 A. Yes. 3 4 Q. And then if you come over to the next page, this is a 5 document, it appears from the bottom of the page, to be 6 dated 7 January 2011. When did you finish up at -- 7 A. Sorry, can you just show me where the date is? 8 I can't see the date. 9 10 Q. Right down the bottom of the page. 11 A. Yes. Oh, yes, yes. 12 13 Q. When did you finish up at the New South Wales office, 14 roughly? 15 A. Yes, that would make sense. I thought it was on the 16 11th of January 2011. 17 18 Q. Anyway, it was January 2011 and you moved up to 19 Queensland, didn't you? 20 A. Yes. I moved up to Queensland, correct. 21 22 Q. I'm just trying to work through this document. As 23 I say, I've only seen it relatively recently, Mr Wong. 24 There's a box with obviously printouts from the payroll 25 information maintained by the New South Wales office of TWU 26 dealing with annual leave, do you see that? 27 A. Yes. Sorry, where's the cursor? Is it hovering 28 anywhere? What exactly are you asking me to look at? 29 30 Q. I'm looking at the hard copy, don't worry about 31 cursors. 32 A. Okay, yes. 33 34 Q. There is a box that says "Annual leave" -- 35 A. Yes. 36 37 Q. And there's a heading "Total entitlement" and a 38 negative figure, negative 705; so you see that? 39 A. Yes. So I'd exhausted everything, yes. 40 41 Q. That's presumably as at - it looks like 14 December 42 2010 you had negative annual leave owing? 43 A. Yes. 44 45 Q. And then if we come down the page, someone's made some 46 adjustments. Do you recognise that handwriting? 47 A. I suspect it's Ray Hays', but I couldn't say for sure.

.20/08/2014 97 M T S WONG (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 2 Q. It says "Annual leave adjustment". The closing 3 balance, 10 December 2010, is negative 705. So that means 4 you have taken more annual leave than you were actually 5 owed according to this? 6 A. That's right. 7 8 Q. Then it says, "Add back 15 days", it looks like, 9 "Paid leave for the period 1 November 2010 through to 10 19 November 2010." In fact, we can see some more 11 information about that period on the next page of this 12 bundle. 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. I am now looking at the third page of this document. 16 That is a period of annual leave of 114 hours for that 17 time. 18 A. Yes. 19 20 Q. If we go back to that page with annual leave 21 adjustment and that 15 days has been adjusted so that that 22 is re-credited. And then it says, "Add back", it looks 23 like another 38 hours for another period of annual leave, 24 which we don't have the document for, but anyway there's 25 another period of annual leave added back in. 26 A. Right. 27 28 Q. And then added back another 15 hours and two days, 29 giving you a credit of 14.95 days. Then it says 30 "less loading allowance." That's presumably annual leave 31 loading and you end up with 10 days credit. 32 A. Yes. 33 34 Q. That was all done in January 2011. It says, 35 "Please pay on next pay run"? 36 A. Yes, that's Ray Hays' signature, I suppose. 37 38 Q. Then it says further up the page, "Please pay 10 days 39 annual leave. M Wong". Is this the position, just reading 40 this, that the annual leave that you had taken in respect 41 to the period it looks like 1 November through to 42 25 November 2010 was re-calculated when you left, such that 43 you were re-credited with that amount? 44 A. Yes, it was retrofitted to match everything up. 45 46 Q. That meant that you had to give up the leave loading 47 because you hadn't actually taken annual leave, according

.20/08/2014 98 M T S WONG (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 to this re-calibrated calculation? 2 A. Yes, correct, they took away the fake leave loading. 3 4 Q. Well, they took away the leave loading. And then -- 5 A. I think I can answer a question, you know, before, 6 counsel, about those dates, the leave dates. It seems to 7 me that they've - the reason why they left it to 8 19 November is because that would be four working weeks, so 9 that would be the normal entitlement over one year for a 10 normal employee or someone on my employment conditions. 11 12 Q. The pages aren't numbered, Mr Wong, but if you come 13 through about nine pages, you'll find your letter of 14 resignation of 1 December 2010. 15 A. Yes, got it, yes. 16 17 Q. You say your resignation is effective 31 December 18 2010. Do you see the first line? 19 A. Yes. 20 21 Q. The calculation that we've just been looking at was 22 carried out shortly after your resignation had become 23 effective? 24 A. Right, yes. 25 26 Q. Just one matter while we're going through, Mr Wong. 27 If you just come back a few pages - I'm sorry these aren't 28 numbered. As I say, we've only recently got them. If you 29 come back three or four pages, you'll find a document, a 30 letter dated 1 November 2010. 31 A. Yes. 32 33 Q. It is a letter to you headed "Pay Increase". The 34 second page of that letter talks about a campaign fund and 35 says: 36 37 As part of your continued employment, you 38 are required to contribute to a campaign 39 fund. 40 41 Is that something you had been doing while you were at the 42 NSW Branch? 43 A. Yes, it was compulsory for everyone to do so. 44 I thought it was more than $15 a week too, but I guess 45 there'll be records to show that. 46 47 Q. You then remained working in Queensland, did you, in

.20/08/2014 99 M T S WONG (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 the Queensland office, for a period of time? 2 A. That's right. Whilst you've been - I mean I left 3 formal employment for NSW Branch in the second week of 4 January and I still retained my work phone for several more 5 weeks but I then sent that back, of course. 6 7 MR STOLJAR: Commissioner, I tender the bundle of leave 8 documents headed "Application Annual Leave" on the front. 9 10 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Any objection? 11 12 MR GLISSAN: There is no objection to that, Commissioner, 13 no. 14 15 THE COMMISSIONER: Does any other legal representative 16 either want to see these documents or object to them? 17 18 MS GERACE: No, Commissioner. 19 20 THE COMMISSIONER: Very well. That will be marked 21 Wong MFI-1. 22 23 WONG MFI#1 BUNDLE OF LEAVE DOCUMENTS HEADED APPLICATION 24 ANNUAL LEAVE 25 26 MR STOLJAR: I have nothing further, thank you, 27 Commissioner. 28 29 THE WITNESS: I just needed to finish answering that 30 question. 31 32 MR STOLJAR: Q. I'm sorry? 33 A. Yes. So I never - I left - after the end of the 34 campaign I came down to Sydney to organise my affairs. 35 I was still working on this stuff while being paid by 36 NSW Branch, as an employee of NSW Branch. I received a job 37 offer and I accepted it and then I started working with 38 Peter Biagini and Scott Connolly from that point forward. 39 So there was just a bit of an overlap where I was doing 40 Queensland work but being - sorry, yes, doing Queensland 41 work while being paid by New South Wales. 42 43 MR STOLJAR: Thank you, Mr Wong. 44 45

.20/08/2014 100 M T S WONG (Mr Glissan) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 Transport Workers Union was this, was it not? You were 2 originally engaged by the National Union on a short-term 3 contract, yes? 4 A. Five months. 5 6 Q. You were then able to obtain permanent employment, 7 I take it, with the NSW Branch of the union? 8 A. On the recommendation of Daniel Mookhey. 9 10 Q. Yes. Thank you. You then went, you say, at the 11 request of Mr Mookhey who was the person who would have 12 been able to advance your interests by getting you the job 13 with New South Wales to work on the Queensland -- 14 A. No, I said -- 15 16 Q. Please allow me to ask the question, thank you. 17 A. You're getting a bit aggro. I don't appreciate that. 18 I'm correcting something, some error that you have made. 19 You said that he got me the job. I'm saying that he - I'm 20 saying that he arranged for me to go up to Queensland. 21 22 Q. Let me ask you this question. You then went at the 23 request of Mr Mookhey, who had recommended you for the job 24 you obtained in New South Wales, to work on the Queensland 25 election, did you not? 26 A. That's right, with Wayne Forno's permission. 27 28 Q. Thank you. You had been happy working at the 29 NSW Branch of the Transport Workers' Union? 30 A. No, that's why Daniel Mookhey did me that favour. 31 32 Q. So you had been unhappy working at the NSW Branch of 33 the union? 34 A. Yes. My immediate manager threatened to bash me and 35 also made physical approaches to me at the State Delegate 36 Conference, so no, I wasn't happy. 37 38 Q. You were no doubt quite pleased to go to Queensland? 39 A. I was. 40 41 Q. And you went to Queensland, taking leave, as has been 42 indicated? 43 A. Faked leave. 44 45 Q. Taking leave as has been indicated? 46 A. Faked leave. It was fake. 47

.20/08/2014 101 M T S WONG (Mr Glissan) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 Q. When the team for whom you had been working on the 2 election campaign was elected, you decided to remain in 3 Queensland? 4 A. That's right. They told me it was a good promotion 5 opportunity and I believed them. 6 7 Q. You wrote a letter to Wayne - that's Wayne Forno? 8 A. Yes, Wayne Forno. 9 10 Q. And Garth Mulholland, did you not? 11 A. Yes. 12 13 Q. And in that letter of 1 December 2010 you told those 14 gentlemen at the union in New South Wales you had been 15 offered the role of communications director in the 16 Queensland Branch? 17 A. Yes. 18 19 Q. And you wrote this: 20 21 It has been a privilege to work for you and 22 the members of the largest branch of 23 Australia's best union. I am looking 24 forward to the challenge of rebuilding the 25 Queensland Branch ... 26 27 Do you remember saying that? 28 A. I remember writing it as a sop to my former employers 29 to keep them on side. 30 31 Q. And you went on further with the sop to them saying: 32 33 Leaving the branch is hard. I hope you 34 won't feel like you have lost a friend and 35 member, but rather that you have gained one 36 (and many more too) in Queensland. If you 37 require any help from me in the future, you 38 can count on it. 39 40 Thank you, comrades! 41 42 Correct. You wrote that? 43 A. Yes, I wrote that. 44 45 Q. Thank you. 46 A. With an agenda. 47

.20/08/2014 102 M T S WONG (Mr Glissan) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 Q. Oh, I'm sure you had an agenda. 2 A. I had an agenda when I wrote that letter. 3 4 Q. I'm sure that's right, Mr Wong. 5 A. The agenda was to keep Wayne Forno and 6 Garth Mulholland on my side. It's standard practice when 7 you leave a job, even under bad conditions, that you thank 8 your employer so as to maintain a clean record for 9 subsequent employers. I knew that letter would be kept. 10 11 THE COMMISSIONER: Just a moment, Mr Glissan. 12 13 Q. Mr Wong, Mr Glissan has asked you a number of 14 questions that could have been answered in one word and you 15 usually answered it in that word and then you gave an 16 explanation for your answer. Mr Stoljar and for that 17 matter other legal representatives will have an opportunity 18 later on to seek any qualification or explanation that you 19 want to give about any of these answers, but I think it 20 will just shorten things and make things more efficient if 21 you just listen to Mr Glissan's question. 22 A. Thank you, Commissioner. Will I have the opportunity 23 as an untrained member of the public to ask questions too 24 or to fill in matters? 25 26 Q. No. 27 A. That's why I want to explain because if I can't 28 actually -- 29 30 Q. Mr Wong, I've told you the procedure. If any other 31 legal representative wants to get more evidence out of you 32 they can, but Mr Glissan is entitled to an answer. 33 A. What, to receive some of the information but not all 34 of the information? 35 36 Q. Mr Wong. 37 A. I don't understand. 38 39 Q. Mr Wong, just control yourself. Yes, Mr Glissan. 40 A. Thank you. 41 42 MR GLISSAN: Thank you, Commissioner. I apologise for 43 raising my voice earlier. 44 45 THE WITNESS: Apology not accepted. 46 47 MR GLISSAN: Q. I wasn't apologising to you. After the

.20/08/2014 103 M T S WONG (Mr Glissan) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 election -- 2 A. Point taken. 3 4 Q. After the election, about 12 or 18 months later, in 5 early 2012, you were brought before Mr Biagini, on whose 6 campaign you worked, to show cause why you shouldn't be 7 dismissed, weren't you? 8 A. On the instruction of Scott Connolly and Tony Sheldon 9 and with their assistance, Peter Biagini created a dossier 10 of false allegations which he never showed me. 11 12 Q. The basis of that was allegations of bad behaviour by 13 you towards other members of staff, wasn't it? 14 A. He said that there were three reasons why he was -- 15 16 Q. Including lack of respect to female members of the 17 staff in particular; that's right? 18 A. That allegation was cooked up by two lieutenants of 19 Scott Connolly to facilitate my constructive dismissal. 20 21 Q. There was a particular allegation that had been made 22 by a lady with whom you worked, Sarah McWhinney? 23 A. No due process. Did not see any allegations. Nothing 24 was shown to me. I was merely presented with a 25 fait accompli, them telling me, "We're going to sack you if 26 you do not walk." I was never shown any allegations. 27 Peter Biagini referred to these fake allegations in a very 28 general manner. Nothing in the way of a formal recognised 29 process which a union and union officials would demand 30 every day of other companies was followed. 31 32 Q. You took with you a senior organiser as your 33 representative to the meeting with Mr Biagini? 34 A. No. No. I insisted on having the area organiser, who 35 was technically the organiser's official, at that meeting 36 and then Peter, at the meeting at which he constructively 37 dismissed me, he nominated Peter Ferguson, the organiser, 38 to be there merely to cover his own arse. Afterwards, he 39 sent Peter Ferguson as his intermediary to threaten my 40 life. 41 42 Q. I want to suggest to you that another reason that was 43 advanced was the kind of emails you were sending to various 44 members of staff which contained inappropriate language 45 which was not acceptable? 46 A. You've never worked at a blue collar union where there 47 were no terms of use policy, there were no policies

.20/08/2014 104 M T S WONG (Mr Glissan) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 whatsoever, and in fact the organisers were so shat off 2 with the way that Peter Biagini and Scott Connolly ran the 3 union totally contrary to all established principles of 4 fairness and unionism, that we demanded at a mass meeting 5 that there be an EBA for the staff, that a consultative 6 committee be set up and that procedures, basic procedures 7 that every organisation has would be established. 8 9 Q. I will put the question again. One of the allegations 10 that was made in relation to your conduct was that you sent 11 emails to other members of staff containing inappropriate 12 and offensive language? 13 A. Well, I wouldn't know because I was never shown the 14 allegations, no evidence, nothing. I tell you, though, one 15 instance which Peter alluded to and which I can tell you 16 what happened. Would you like to hear that? 17 18 Q. The next question I want to put to you is this, that 19 you have maintained since the time you left the union at 20 the end of 2012 a bitter resentment towards the union which 21 informs -- 22 A. I love the union, I just hate the union bosses. The 23 union members, that's the union, not the union bosses. The 24 union bosses have captured the union and I hate the union 25 bosses but I love the members. 26 27 Q. You wrote in a email in September 2013: 28 29 There was a time when I did stoop to 30 converse with low, lying maggots in -- 31 32 A. A former friend who had dropped me like a sack of shit 33 after I got fired. 34 35 Q. Thank you. That was Mr Tenkate? 36 A. No, it wasn't. I mean, are you not being instructed 37 by your clients? 38 39 Q. "In fact, you could say" -- 40 A. It was Margaret Hearn. 41 42 Q. Thank you: 43 44 In fact, you could say I was part of their 45 ecosystem. I was certainly pretty flyblown 46 by the time I was drummed out of the union 47 by the lying worthless mediocrities

.20/08/2014 105 M T S WONG (Mr Glissan) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 I served so excellently. 2 3 You said. 4 A. Correct. I gave them professional value for which 5 I received nothing but bullying, intimidation and 6 absolutely no thanks. 7 8 Q. And what you said about that friend, Margaret Hearn, 9 was -- 10 A. Former friend. 11 12 Q. What you said about her was that she took time off for 13 wine-fuelled absences; that's right? 14 A. What you don't understand as someone who has been paid 15 10 grand a day out of union members' money to represent 16 these thieves is that Margaret Hearn and I have had a 17 joking relationship all the time that we were employed by 18 the TWU and one of those jokes was about how it was time to 19 go and get a bottle of Mateus. So if you want to paint 20 that in isolation as something other than what it was you 21 can, but rest assured, Margaret Hearn and I thought it was 22 absolutely hilarious until that time when I called her a 23 maggot. 24 25 Q. Yes. Indeed. You went on: 26 27 I shan't be talking to the Mateus-muddled 28 mendacious Margaret again. 29 30 A. You can tell by the tenor of that that it's just a 31 joke. 32 33 Q. Oh, yes. "It's a trip to see her accountant." That 34 meant having a drink, in your slang? 35 A. There were many unexplained absences in Margaret's 36 work with the union and the one truthful part of that joke 37 was the fact that often every single person who was a 38 contact of Margaret's at the union could not contact her 39 when they needed to. Sometimes it was - sometimes it was 40 unreasonable of them to expect it. For instance, 41 Mr Priest, Mr Richard Priest would harangue her and 42 harangue her and harangue her and have, you know, 43 unjustifiable expectations of her work and her turnaround 44 times, but for everyone else it was more a case of 45 frustration that when you needed her and on a timeline that 46 was generous and normal, she just wasn't there. 47

.20/08/2014 106 M T S WONG (Mr Glissan) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 Q. Were you having eight or 10 drinks a night while you 2 were working at the TWU? 3 A. In the last - in the last month when I was at the TWU, 4 when I was being drummed out of the union for requesting an 5 EBA, with several other organisers, yes, I was. I don't 6 know how much you know about mental health issues, but one 7 way people deal with impossible stress and anxiety is to 8 drink. 9 10 Q. Let's go back and just review -- 11 A. I bet you've had a few. 12 13 Q. Let's go back and just review your career, Mr Wong. 14 You made allegations when you were working at the Sydney 15 union about Garth Mulholland? 16 A. Yes, of course. 17 18 Q. You made allegations while you were working at the 19 Sydney union about Tanie Sansey? 20 A. Please pronounce her name correctly. It's "Tanie". 21 22 Q. You made a request -- 23 A. I should add that Tanie and Garth were in a sexual 24 relationship at the time and I was in a team of three. 25 26 Q. You made a request -- 27 A. Tanie was also reporting to Garth, so you can imagine 28 how that professional triad was like; you know, it was very 29 easy to work for. 30 31 Q. You made a request to Daniel Mookhey that you be 32 allowed to go to Queensland to work on the election 33 campaign -- 34 A. Yes. 35 36 Q. -- in order for you to get away from these people. 37 You wanted -- 38 A. From the massive workplace abuse, including physical 39 threats against me. 40 41 Q. The people to whom you subsequently wrote and said 42 that leaving the branch is hard and you'd lost a friend? 43 A. You understand nothing about HR, don't you, nothing, 44 not a single thing. You don't understand about the real 45 world where you have to lie to former employers, if you 46 have left their employment unhappy, so that you won't 47 prejudice your next job: that's the reality. Wake up.

.20/08/2014 107 M T S WONG (Mr Glissan) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 2 MR STOLJAR: Commissioner, I don't want -- 3 4 MR GLISSAN: I've completed, Commissioner. I'm done. 5 6 THE COMMISSIONER: Does any other legal representative 7 want to ask any questions of the witness? Yes, Mr Stoljar. 8 9 MR STOLJAR: No further questions, thank you, 10 Commissioner. 11 12 THE COMMISSIONER: Is there any opposition to Mr Wong 13 being excused? Yes, you are excused, Mr Wong. You are 14 excused from further attendance. 15 16

.20/08/2014 108 M MIJATOV (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 the Commissioner would be kind enough to look at it. 2 3 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I've got that. 4 5 MR GLISSAN: Mr Mijatov reports some hearsay material 6 which was provided to him by a particular female who 7 I think may have been a member of the union. She is 8 referred to in some of the attachments. I don't want to 9 elevate this or give it any more air than is necessary, but 10 there's some material down there, including copies of 11 newspaper articles relating to some events in South Africa. 12 13 There are two relevant assertions made that might be 14 problematic. In my submission, the better course is to 15 excise the whole of this material for two reasons. In 16 paragraph 40, Mr Mijatov very fairly states that there's no 17 basis for him to verify the assertions that are made. 18 Second, that the allegation that is made in relation to 19 something that's asserted to have been said at a TWU 20 National Committee meeting was not put to the person who 21 was alleged to have said it. I don't say that as a 22 criticism of my learned friend at all. He wasn't given an 23 opportunity to deal with it. It raises -- 24 25 THE COMMISSIONER: Understandably, you're dealing with a 26 certain lack of specificity but -- 27 28 MR GLISSAN: I don't want to -- 29 30 THE COMMISSIONER: Quite, I understand it, but you said 31 Mr Stoljar didn't - yes, Mr Stoljar? 32 33 MR STOLJAR: I was just going to say, to shorten things, 34 I won't press those paragraphs. 35 36 THE COMMISSIONER: Very well. 37 38 MR STOLJAR: Mr Glissan fairly points out that there's a 39 level of hearsay in them. Although Mr Mijatov does say 40 what he says in 40, there may be limited weight. 41 42 MR GLISSAN: I am very comfortable with that. 43 44 THE COMMISSIONER: Well, notes are a business record. 45 46 MR STOLJAR: That is true, but they record what somebody 47 told - it's two or so levels of hearsay.

.20/08/2014 109 M MIJATOV (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 2 THE COMMISSIONER: You aren't tendering 38 to 40? 3 4 MR STOLJAR: No. 5 6 THE COMMISSIONER: Nor tab 21? 7 8 MR STOLJAR: No, Commissioner. 9 10 MR GLISSAN: I don't have any other objections 11 Commissioner. 12 13 THE COMMISSIONER: Does anyone else have any objections? 14 The statement of Michael Mijatov, together with the 15 documents, will be called Mijatov MFI-1, save for 16 paragraphs 38 to 40 and tab 21. 17 18 MR STOLJAR: May it please the Commission. 19 20 MIJATOV MFI#1 STATEMENT OF MICHAEL MIJATOV DATED 21 08/08/2014, SAVE FOR PARAGRAPHS 38 TO 40 AND TAB 21, 22 TOGETHER WITH DOCUMENTS 23 24 MR STOLJAR: Q. Mr Mijatov, you've set out in detail in 25 your statement the background, including your work 26 experience and the like. I really only have one matter 27 that I wish to raise with you orally. Let me be clear on 28 one thing. In paragraph 13 and following you talk about 29 the funding for your team in the FAAA election. Do you 30 have a copy of your statement, by the way? Is it easier 31 for you to read a hard copy? I will provide you with that. 32 A. If it's on the screen I can see it in front of me. 33 34 Q. Is that sufficient for you? 35 A. It is. 36 37 Q. In fact, that is the original I will provide for the 38 Commission's record. If you have a look at paragraph 13 39 and following, you're talking about the funding for your 40 team. It's the case, is it, that your team paid for the 41 campaign out of its own pocket, in effect? 42 A. Correct. 43 44 Q. You have set out the amounts in paragraph 14? 45 A. Yes. There were nine of us. 46 47 Q. And the total amount that your team contributed was

.20/08/2014 110 M MIJATOV (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 the amount that you've set out, $5,733? 2 A. Correct. 3 4 MR STOLJAR: I have nothing further, thank you, 5 Commissioner. 6 7 THE COMMISSIONER: Any questions, Mr Glissan? 8 9 MR GLISSAN: No, thank you, Commissioner. 10 11 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Nolan, do you have any questions? 12 13 MR NOLAN: No, Commissioner. 14 15 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Read? 16 17 MR READ: I have no questions, Commissioner. 18 19 THE COMMISSIONER: Ms Gerace? 20 21 MS GERACE: I have no questions, Commissioner. 22 23 THE COMMISSIONER: Very well. Does anyone object to 24 Mr Mijatov being excused? 25 26 MR GLISSAN: No, Commissioner, I certainly don't. 27 28 MR STOLJAR: Not on my account, Commissioner. 29 30 THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you for coming, Mr Mijatov, 31 you're excused from further attendance. 32 33 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Commissioner. 34 35

.20/08/2014 111 M MIJATOV (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 objection is on the basis of relevance. Do you have a copy 2 of the affidavit before you, Commissioner? 3 4 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I do. 5 6 MR READ: You will see that this evidence does not relate 7 to any matter that falls within the Commission's terms of 8 inquiry. Rather, it relates to internal FAAA dealings. 9 Paragraph 9, the heading above reads "Concerns About the 10 Representation of Virgin Employees by the FAAA". On 11 page 5, the information under that heading refers to a 12 nomination for the position of team coordinator. The 13 Commissioner will see from paragraph 17 that this 14 nomination occurred in September 2011. The election that 15 is relevant to the inquiry and as referred to in my learned 16 friend's opening is the 2012 election. 17 18 The nominations for the 2012 election were opened on 19 15 February 2012. In the circumstances, I submit there's 20 no relevance to this information to the inquiry. Further, 21 on page 6, again, the heading at around the middle of the 22 page reads, "Concerns About Representation for Virgin 23 Employees ". Again, Commissioner, not a matter that falls 24 at all within the term of this inquiry. 25 26 In the circumstances where the affidavit is being 27 tendered in Mr Worthy's absence, I would say that this 28 evidence should not be received by the Commission. 29 30 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Thank you. What do you say? 31 32 MR STOLJAR: It is true that the particular election that 33 was the focus of the concern is 2012, but this deals with 34 the period leading up to 2012. It is often the case that 35 in order to understand what occurs in one particular period 36 of time one needs to understand the history leading up to 37 that period of time and that is what these paragraphs are 38 directed to. In terms of relevance, they certainly provide 39 the backdrop; for example, 17, the nomination to the 40 position of team coordinator, what happens in the 41 background involving Ms Davidson, going on to 23, mid-2010, 42 we work through to September 2011, and so on. 43 44 That does provide a foundation for what happens in 45 2012. That is the first point, Commissioner. 46 47 As to the second point, the fact that Mr Worthy is

.20/08/2014 112 M MIJATOV (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 presently overseas, my friend, as I understand it, hasn't 2 put on any evidence or made any points that he may wish to 3 cross-examine Mr Worthy, I wasn't aware that he was 4 required for cross-examination, but in any event that's 5 really not a question of relevance or admissibility, that's 6 an issue that we might need to give some further 7 consideration to if there's a problem about putting things 8 to Mr Worthy. If that's what the problem is, that's really 9 got nothing to do whether the evidence be admitted. It 10 should go in and if my friend wishes to make some 11 submissions in due course about what weight or regard might 12 be had to it, that's a matter for him. 13 14 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Mr Read, I got the impression 15 during your arguments that there were really two points 16 folded up in them. One was a relevance point and the other 17 one was a sort of fairness point, I suppose, because the 18 deponent, Mr Worthy, is not here to be cross-examined. Do 19 we know whether Mr Worthy will be back in the next 20 six weeks or so? 21 22 MR STOLJAR: He will be back in the country at the end of 23 this week, as I understand it, Commissioner. 24 25 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Read, the other thing is it may be 26 restrictive; some people think it is perhaps. If it were a 27 question of admitting the evidence but making it subject to 28 cross-examination, the right to cross-examine would depend 29 on demonstration that there was some factual issue. In 30 other words, if there are people whose conduct is described 31 wrongly in these paragraphs, 9 to 29, and they put on a 32 statement saying it was wrong, then you would be able to 33 cross-examine Mr Worthy to advance their position and 34 damage or qualify his. 35 36 I think my view at the moment is the evidence should 37 be received, but you have a right to cross-examine later, 38 subject to that condition I mentioned. 39 40 MR READ: May it please the Commission. 41 42 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Glissan, I have just forgotten what 43 our last exchange was. Do you wish to object to this? 44 45 MR GLISSAN: No, not at all. I have no objections to it 46 at all, Commissioner. 47

.20/08/2014 113 M MIJATOV (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 THE COMMISSIONER: What we will do is we will admit 2 Mr Christopher Worthy's affidavit and we move to the next 3 topic. 4 5 #AFFIDAVIT OF CHRISTOPHER WORTHY 6 7 MR STOLJAR: Yes, Commissioner. I seem to have ended up 8 with the original of Mr Worthy's affidavit. I will provide 9 that to the Commission for its records. The next witness 10 is Ms Jo-Ann Davidson. 11 12

.20/08/2014 114 J M DAVIDSON (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 apologise for that omission. 2 3 Q. That's quite all right, Ms Davidson. In paragraph 18 4 it says: 5 6 The assistance by Mr Priest involved: 7 8 And you set out subparagraphs a. through to c. 9 A. Yes. 10 11 Q. In addition, he set up a website, did he? 12 A. Correct, yes, and the Facebook page and the website 13 page were the same, if that makes sense, the same name. 14 15 Q. Save for that point that you make in respect of 16 paragraph 18, the content of your statement dated 20 August 17 2014 is true and correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 20 Q. Just looking at that statement, what is the change 21 between that and an earlier version that had been supplied 22 to the Commission? 23 A. I think we missed one of the documents to be provided 24 and that was the last one, 8. 25 26 Q. That's the open letter from Mr Hastings; is that the 27 document? 28 A. Yes. 29 30 MR STOLJAR: I would ask for that statement to be received 31 into evidence, Commissioner. 32 33 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Any objection? 34 35 MR GLISSAN: No. 36 37 THE COMMISSIONER: Very well. The statement of Jo-Ann 38 Davidson signed on 20 August 2014 will be received into 39 evidence. 40 41 #STATEMENT OF JO-ANN MARGARET DAVIDSON SIGNED ON 20/08/2014 42 43 MR STOLJAR: Q. Just a few things, Ms Davidson. Your 44 campaign in 2012 received some funding from the 45 McLean Forum? 46 A. I believe that was the case. 47

.20/08/2014 115 J M DAVIDSON (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 Q. Why was that? 2 A. As we were in a federation with the Transport Workers' 3 Union, I had a discussion, as you'll see in my statement. 4 Towards the end of 2011 I was talking to Mr Sheldon on a 5 number of related matters and I said I was coming up for an 6 election. 7 8 Q. Is this paragraph 9? 9 A. Paragraph 9, yes, correct, and so he said - he offered 10 any assistance if I needed it. 11 12 Q. Was anyone else present when you had that discussion? 13 A. No. 14 15 Q. It was just an informal discussion, was it? 16 A. Yes. 17 18 Q. Was there any quid pro quo, if I can put it that way? 19 Did anyone say to you, "If we provide funding for your 20 election, we'd like you to do X," or, "We'd like you to do 21 Y"? 22 A. No. 23 24 Q. Nothing like that? 25 A. No. 26 27 Q. Do you know how much was contributed to your election 28 or did you just leave that to the McLean Forum? 29 A. Yes, I left that to Richard who was organising all of 30 that, so no, I don't know. 31 32 Q. That's Richard Priest. All right. Could you come 33 through to Annexure 3. You know that that's the document 34 that says "VOTE FOR A UNITED CREW" and it has to the left 35 of the words "VOTE FOR A UNITED CREW", "2010 - TWU"? 36 A. Yes. 37 38 Q. And that created some consternation? 39 A. Yes, it did. 40 41 Q. Did you have any dealings with the printer who printed 42 out this material? 43 A. No, I didn't, no. 44 45 Q. Did you know that the printer issued a letter after -- 46 A. Yes, I saw that. 47

.20/08/2014 116 J M DAVIDSON (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 Q. Did you have any part in the drafting of that letter? 2 A. No, I didn't. 3 4 Q. Do you know who did? 5 A. No. 6 7 Q. When did you see that letter? 8 A. I think it was forwarded on to me when it was received 9 by Richard maybe some time in April; I'm not sure. 10 11 MR STOLJAR: I have nothing further, thank you, 12 Commissioner. 13 14 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Are there any questions? 15 16 MR GLISSAN: I have no questions, thank you, Commissioner. 17 18 THE COMMISSIONER: Any questions from any other legal 19 representative? 20 21 MR READ: Just one question, Commissioner. 22 23

.20/08/2014 117 J M DAVIDSON (Mr Read) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 overlooked this before. Did you make any disclosure to the 2 FAAA members about the fact that McLean Forum was providing 3 funds for the campaign? 4 A. No, because I didn't know the name of the McLean Forum 5 at the time. 6 7 Q. Did you make any disclosure that an entity associated 8 with the union, if not a union, was making -- 9 A. No. 10 11 Q. Isn't that something that the members of the FAAA 12 might have wished to know as a relevant matter for the 13 purposes of exercising their vote? 14 A. Look, when I had the conversation with Mr Sheldon 15 about assistance, he gave me the assurance that it was 16 legal and I had no reason not to believe him. 17 18 Q. You asked about that, did you? 19 A. No, he explained how he could - there was a separate 20 fund and he explained in detail about that. He didn't 21 actually - he may have said the name but I didn't recall it 22 and on his explanation I was satisfied. 23 24 Q. Legal is one thing I suppose, but isn't it still - 25 this is really the question I was putting to you - that it 26 was a matter that would be relevant for the purposes of an 27 FAAA member exercising a vote, that one particular ticket 28 was receiving funding from an entity associated with 29 another union? 30 A. It wasn't - well, my understanding is it wasn't from 31 TWU funding, it was from another funding, so it wasn't TWU 32 funds as such. 33 34 Q. No, I understand that, but isn't it something that the 35 members would have wished to know if a particular ticket 36 was receiving a reasonably significant amount of funding 37 from a particular body and another one wasn't? 38 A. I can't - I can't - no. 39 40 MR READ: I object to the question. 41 42 THE WITNESS: No. 43 44 MR READ: Whether it is "body" or "bodies", I think there 45 need to be some clarity in the question. The terms of the 46 inquiry are very precise: an investigation into funds set 47 up with the purpose of funding election campaigns. It is

.20/08/2014 118 J M DAVIDSON (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 too broad, Commissioner. 2 3 THE COMMISSIONER: Do you want to make it more specific, 4 Mr Stoljar? 5 6 MR STOLJAR: Q. Perhaps I will just come at it this way, 7 Ms Davidson. If you look at the last page of your 8 statement, Annexure 8, it says at the bottom of the page: 9 10 P.S. No FAAA or Company resources or funds 11 have been used in our campaign. 12 13 A. That's correct. 14 15 Q. "Friends have made donations to assist." 16 A. Which one was it? Number one, it was? 17 18 Q. I thought it was Annexure 8. It is a bit hard to read 19 the handwriting. 20 A. Okay. 21 22 Q. And then if you come to the document I took you to 23 before, Annexure 3, at the bottom of the page, it says: 24 25 No union or employer funds were used to 26 produce this material. 27 28 A. That's correct. 29 30 Q. It is something that voters in elections of this kind 31 want to know who's funding the campaign? 32 A. Well, that's perfectly clear, that no FAAA or company 33 funds were used. I think the members need to know that 34 it's no FAAA or union funds in the campaign that were used. 35 36 Q. All I'm suggesting to you is it is also relevant for 37 them to know that an entity associated with another union 38 is a significant contributor to a particular ticket in an 39 election campaign. Do you agree with that? 40 A. No. 41 42 MR STOLJAR: Thank you, Commissioner. 43 44 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Does anyone want to ask any 45 questions arising out of Mr Stoljar's latest round? 46 47 MR GLISSAN: No.

.20/08/2014 119 J M DAVIDSON (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 2 THE COMMISSIONER: Very well. Thank you very much for 3 coming here today, Ms Davidson. There is no objection to 4 Ms Davidson being excused? 5 6 MR STOLJAR: No. 7 8 THE COMMISSIONER: You are excused from further 9 attendance. 10 11 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 12 13

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