Investigation Report No.2435

Investigation Report No. 2435

File No. ACMA2010/1291

Licensee Radio 2UE Sydney Pty Ltd

Station 2UE Sydney

Type of Service Commercial Radio

Name of Program 2UE Drive

Date of Broadcast 5 May 2010

Relevant Code Clause 1.1(e) of the Commercial Radio Australia Codes of Practice and Guidelines 2010 Date Finalised 24 September 2010

Decision No breach of clause 1.1(e) (hatred, contempt or ridicule)

ACMA Investigation Report – 2UE Drive broadcast by 2UE Sydney on 5 May 2010 The complaint

On 18 June 2010, the Australian Communications and Media Authority (the ACMA) received a complaint regarding the program 2UE Drive broadcast on 5 May 2010 by Radio 2UE Sydney Pty Ltd, the licensee of 2UE Sydney (the licensee). The complainant is concerned that comments made by the program presenter in reference to persons detained at the Christmas Island Immigration Detention Centre would likely ‘incite and perpetuate hatred against all asylum seekers and inmates of detention centres because of their ethnicity and race’. The complainant was not satisfied with the response of the licensee and referred the matter to the ACMA for investigation.1 The complaint has been assessed against clause 1.1(e) [proscribed matter] of the Commercial Radio Australia Codes of Practice and Guidelines 2010 (the Code).

The broadcast

2UE Drive is a current affairs talkback program broadcast on weekdays from 3.00 pm to 6.00 pm on 2UE Sydney. At the time of the complaint, the program was hosted by David Oldfield. During the program broadcast, Mr Oldfield discussed the Coalition Party’s border protection policy with Michael Keenan, Shadow Minister for Justice, Customs and Border Protection. The discussion took place in the context of the then upcoming election of Government and a coinciding news headline regarding a detainee that escaped from the Christmas Island Immigration Detention Centre. Mr Oldfield introduced the segment as:

Christmas Island is constantly in the news these days. Just yesterday, another boat was intercepted. Now, I know you are all numb to this but this is the 50th boat to arrive just this year. But now we hear a story of a slightly different kind. A couple of days ago, an unhappy detainee tried to escape. Or should I say, succeeded in escaping. He scaled two wire fences and wandered off into the jungle. Now we are talking about an electric fence. The bloke climbed over an electric fence. Rubber soled shoes, rubber gloves, you may ask? No. In fact, if you are wondering why he didn’t get zapped, well the fence wasn’t turned on.

Now Michael Keenan is the shadow minister for justice, customs and border protection. He’s recently returned from Christmas Island. And we’re grateful he’s been able to join us today. Michael. Good afternoon – thanks for being with us.

Mr Oldfield and Mr Keenan discussed the Government’s border protection policy and how the Coalition Party’s border protection policy would curtail unauthorised arrivals:

Mr Oldfield: So no easy ride, no great voyage and of course no incentives for the queue jumpers. Just one final question for you, Michael, could you guarantee us that a coalition government will actually turn on the electric fences?

1 Section 149 (1) of the Broadcasting Services Act 1992 refers to the ACMA’s role in investigating complaints under codes of practice.

ACMA Investigation Report – 2UE Drive broadcast by 2UE Sydney on 5 May 2010 2 Mr Keenan: Well that won’t be a decision for me within my ministry that will be a decision for my colleague Scott Morrison, but certainly...

Mr Oldfield: We’d all be hoping that the answer could only be ‘yes’.

Mr Keenan: Well certainly we will have the resolve to address this problem. What I would like to see is no more people coming onto Christmas Island.

Mr Oldfield: Surely you’re not telling me there’s a chance you wouldn’t turn on the electric fences?

Mr Keenan: Well look I can’t speak for my colleague.

Mr Oldfield: Oh dear.

Mr Keenan: But I will say that we will have the resolve to address this problem. I’m sort of less concerned about the conditions of the detention centre than I am about stopping people from getting there in the first place.

Mr Oldfield: Well we also don’t want them getting out once they’re there. But maybe we’ll have to pin down Scott Morrison on that one. I appreciate your time.

Following the interview, Mr Oldfield made the following concluding statement before going to a commercial break:

Well I don’t know what you made of that. It’s a bit of a disaster, the whole fact that we’re getting thousands and thousands of people arriving here on these boats more and more all the time. Not forgetting, of course, the thousands that are arriving by plane but are not as obvious in their arrival. We can’t forget them. Look, at the end of that with Michael Keenan, I was horrified, and I hope you are as well. If the Coalition wants to win the next election you’d hope that they could at least undertake to flick a switch on the electric fences that supposedly keep these queue jumpers in the compound wouldn’t you? They can’t even actually commit to flicking an actual switch and turning on the electric fences. I think that’s a debacle and it is very unfortunate he wasn’t able to simply say ‘yes’. There are some very simple questions that can be asked to a politician where the answer is ‘yes’ or the answer is ‘no’. It’s not a whole lot of waffle, and excuses, and buck-passing for colleagues and everything else. He should have just said, ‘Yes, we’ll turn on the electric fences. We’ll stop them from coming. But the ones that are here we’ll make sure they can’t escape. And if they do try it, they’ll be fried!

Following the break a caller was put on-air and the following exchange between the caller and Mr Oldfield took place:

Mr Oldfield: Welcome.

Caller 1: Well David, I’m not very happy about the way you spoke about those human beings that the electric fence should be turned on and they fry.

Mr Oldfield: You talking about the queue jumpers on Christmas Island?

ACMA Investigation Report – 2UE Drive broadcast by 2UE Sydney on 5 May 2010 3 Caller 1: Listen these are human beings. I know they shouldn’t be coming over in boats and things like that, and I’m not happy that they are. But I wouldn’t want anybody being fried. Like you were saying, I don’t know what you’re on the radio for.

Mr Oldfield: Or be BBQ’d.

Caller 1: I mean you should stay over in bloody 2GB. That’s the kind of place that’s always rubbishing everybody.

Mr Oldfield: Everyone has a view.

Caller 1: They might, but you’re not for 2UE mate. I’m telling you you’re bad.

Mr Oldfield: Well, I guess we’ll find out that in the long term.

Caller 1: You’re bad.

[End of call]

Mr Oldfield made the following comments subsequent to Caller 1:

Thank you for that. I’ve been called much worse things, I must say. Now of course, the concept of frying relates to an electric fence, no one is seriously suggesting we whack them in a frying pan and sort of, you know, batter them up or anything like that. They wouldn’t taste very good anyway would they? But you know, everyone does have a view, and I’m not here to be agreed with. And I don’t mind being called bad or anything else - some people will think that, some people won’t. Others would be cheering and saying ‘whack them on the BBQ!’ I mean for goodness sakes, these people are coming here in ever-increasing numbers. The government does nothing about it and forget about the idea that they are fleeing tyranny and everything else. It is quite a common practice, for example, in Afghanistan to go along and pay US$1500 as I said, to a corrupt official. And you can find a few of them in Kabul. And you get a visa and you jump on an Aeroplane you know a jetliner, and you fly out of Afghanistan. You do a bit of duty free shopping in Hong Kong or Singapore on the way through, land in Jakarta, make your way south, and pay $15,000 to $20,000 to get on a boat and head towards Christmas Island. These are not people fleeing the Nazis in the World War II. These are not people with their worldly possessions bundled on their heads trying to cross the Swiss border. This is not what’s taking place. These are modern day country shoppers. Yes, there’ll be a few genuine refugees amongst them. But they are generally modern day country shoppers. A true refugee flees to the point of safety. They don’t travel thousands and thousands of miles on boats, on international aircrafts, stopping for shopping, and all of that, to get to Australia. So don’t pay them too much sympathy where this is concerned. And if you don’t like terms like ‘fry’ in relation to electric fences, well of course you can ring up and complain. As I say, I’m not here to be agreed with.

I will however of course state my view because that’s why I’m here. And I’m also here to facilitate you stating your views. And you are more than welcome to ring up and say, as she did.

Later in the program, another two listeners were put on-air who were supportive of Mr Oldfield’s views.

ACMA Investigation Report – 2UE Drive broadcast by 2UE Sydney on 5 May 2010 4 A full transcript of the segment, including the interview, comments and telephone calls, is set out at Attachment A.

Assessment

The assessment is based on:  a copy of the broadcast, provided to the ACMA by the licensee;  submissions from the complainant and the licensee; and  publicly available information, the source of which are identified where relevant.

Issue 1: was the program likely to incite hatred against any group of persons because of ethnicity or nationality Relevant provision of the Code

Clause 1.1(e) of the Codes states:

Proscribed Matter

1.1 A licensee must not broadcast a program which, in all of the circumstances:

(e) is likely to incite hatred against, or serious contempt for, or severe ridicule of, any person or group of persons because of age, ethnicity, nationality, race, gender, sexual preferences, religion, transgender status or disability.

Interpretation of clause 1.1(e) of the Code The ACMA adopts the general approach set out below, when assessing whether a broadcast breaches clause 1.1(e) of the Code. Ordinary reasonable listener test In assessing the Code, the ACMA considers what an ‘ordinary reasonable listener’ would have understood the broadcast to have conveyed. Australian Courts have considered an ‘ordinary, reasonable listener’ to be:

A person of fair average intelligence, who is neither perverse, nor morbid or suspicious of mind, nor avid for scandal. That person does not live in an ivory tower, but can and does read between the lines in the light of that person’s general knowledge and experience of worldly affairs.2

2 Amalgamated Television Services Pty Limited v Marsden (1998) 43 NSWLR 158 at pp 164–167

ACMA Investigation Report – 2UE Drive broadcast by 2UE Sydney on 5 May 2010 5 ‘Likely, in all of the circumstances’

3 Use of the words, ‘likely in all of the circumstances’ imposes an objective test and implies a real and not remote possibility; something which is probable.4 ‘Incite hatred’

When a statute or code uses words which it does not define, it is usually appropriate to apply whichever of the ordinary English language meanings are most appropriate to the context in which the words are used in the statute or code. The Macquarie Dictionary (fourth edition) includes the following definitions:

incite verb to urge on; stimulate or prompt to action.

hatred noun the feeling of someone who hates; intense dislike; detestation.

Incitement can be achieved through comments made about a person or group; there is no requirement that those comments include a specific call to action against that person or group. There is no need to establish that there was a specific intention to incite hatred or to prove that anyone was actually incited.5 However, the use of words that merely convey hatred towards a person, is not incitement. There must be something more than an expression of opinion, something that is positively stimulatory of that reaction in others.6 The Code contemplates a very strong reaction and sets a high test for the prohibited behaviour. It is not sufficient that the behaviour induces a moderately negative response or reaction.7

‘Because of’

The incitement to hatred against must occur on a basis specified in clause 1.1(e), including nationality or ethnicity of the person or group of persons. This means there must be a causal connection between the nationality or ethnicity of the person or group of persons and the feelings of hatred that are likely to be incited by the public act, that is, the broadcast.8

Complainant’s submission

The complainant submitted:

David was trying to coerce Shadow Minster Michael Keenan to say that the electric fence above the detention centre on Christmas Island will be ‘turned on when they win the next Federal election’. David was building up his case about the excellent facilities that exist on Christmas Island for detainees compared to the poor living conditions for the workers on the island. [...]

David was referring to the escape of a detainee on Christmas Island due to the fact that the fence surrounding the detention centre did not have the electrified fence activated. David told the Shadow Minister that the Liberal government would win

3 Creek v Cairns Post Pty Ltd (2001) 112 FCR 352 at p.12. 4 Re Vulcan Australian Pty Ltd v Controller-General of Customs (1994) 34 ALD 773 at p.778-779. 5 Kazak v John Fairfax Publications Limited [2000] NSWADT 77 at [23-29]. 6 Trad v Jones & anor. (No. 3) [2009] NSWADT 318 at [161]. 7 The ACMA has set out this test before in relation to the consideration of these elements of the Codes. See for example, Investigation Report No. 1909 – 12 February 2009. 8 Kazak v John Fairfax Publications Limited at [72].

ACMA Investigation Report – 2UE Drive broadcast by 2UE Sydney on 5 May 2010 6 the next Federal election. David wanted the Minister to say that the switch would be turned back on as soon as the election was over. He kept repeating that phrase and in fact said that ‘any detainee who wanted to climb the fence should be fried and frizzled’. The Shadow Minister could not give his guarantee that 'the switch would be turned on' saying that it would be a decision made by members of his party when and if they won office - in a policy dealing with asylum seekers. David became quite upset with this response and stated verbally his feelings of frustration. The call was terminated by David.

I feel that David did contravene [clause [1.1(e)] of the Codes] in respect of vilification9 and his intention was to incite and perpetuate hatred against all asylum seekers and inmates of detention centres because of their ethnicity and race. [...]

Licensee’s submission

In the licensee’s response to the complainant dated 13 May 2010, the licensee stated:

Radio 2UE management deemed Mr Oldfield's comments to be unacceptable and distasteful and as a consequence he was suspended from broadcasting on the radio station for a time. Radio 2UE has made clear to Mr Oldfield the inappropriateness of these comments.

I have listened carefully to the broadcast and considered section [1.1(e) of [ the Codes] provides that a licensee must not broadcast a program which is "likely to incite or perpetuate hatred against or vilify any person or group on the basis of age, ethnicity, nationality, race, gender, sexual preference, religion or physical or mental disability". This test in the Code sets a high threshold for the likely effect of prohibited behaviour: that is that comments must induce a strong reaction of contempt or ridicule against a group of people to be regarded as a breach under section [1.1(e)].

In this broadcast, I do not believe that Mr Oldfield's comments did this. Rather, I believe his inappropriate comments were more of a poor reflection on himself than on asylum seekers. I do not believe that listeners would feel such strong emotions as hatred or contempt for asylum seekers as a result of this broadcast.

Accordingly, it is my view that the broadcast was unacceptable but that it did not breach [the Codes]. [...]

Finding

In broadcasting 2UE Drive on 5 May 2010, the licensee did not breach clause 1.1(e) of the Code.

Reasons

Relevant person or group of persons

9 Both the complainant and licensee referred to vilification under clause 1.3(e) of the Commercial Radio Codes of Practice 2004 vilification in their submissions. The relevant clause is 1.1(e) of the Commercial Radio Codes of Practice and Guidelines 2010. This clause does not refer to vilification. Accordingly, the complaint has been assessed only in so far as it relates to incitement of hatred under clause 1.1(e) of the Commercial Radio Codes of Practice and Guidelines 2010.

ACMA Investigation Report – 2UE Drive broadcast by 2UE Sydney on 5 May 2010 7 The segment discussed the Coalition Party’s border protection policy, as well as the escape of a detainee from the Christmas Island Immigration Detention Centre. The delegate is satisfied that Mr Oldfield’s statements were intended to be in reference to people of ethnic and national origin, who arrive in Australia without authorisation seeking asylum. Relevant ground The complainant has identified ‘ethnicity and race’ as the relevant grounds of hatred. The delegate notes that the individuals or groups of persons discussed were not identified in the commentary as being of any particular nationality or ethnic group. However, pertinent to the topic under discussion were people of ethnic and national origin who are seeking asylum in Australia. On the basis of the complaint coupled with the broader topic of discussion, the delegate is of the view that the relevant grounds for consideration in this investigation are nationality or ethnicity. Incite hatred Clause 1.1(e) of the Code prohibits licensees from broadcasting programs which, ‘in all of the circumstances, is likely to incite hatred against [...] a group of persons because of nationality or ethnicity’. Merely engaging in conduct that conveys hatred does not amount to a breach of clause 1.1(e) of the Codes. There must be something in the conduct and its manner or circumstances that render it capable of inciting the requisite degree of ill-feeling in another person.10 The prohibition contained in clause 1.1(e) must be balanced with freedom of speech and expression. The Appeal Panel of the Administrative Decisions Tribunal (ADT) in Burns v Laws11 noted that freedom of speech and expression is not limited to what might be called polite, decent or tasteful expression but is freedom which embraces offensive, rude, hostile, derogatory and angry speech or expression, and speech or expression that is tasteless, insensitive and undignified. The delegate reviewed the broadcast in its entirety and considers that the ordinary reasonable listener would have understood the purpose of the program to be to discuss the Coalition Party’s border protection policy within the context of the then upcoming Federal election. Of particular relevance to this context was the news headline about a detainee that had escaped from the Christmas Island Detention Centre. The delegate acknowledges the complainant’s concern that the program included negative comments about persons who arrive in Australia without authorisation. The delegate has identified the following aspects of the broadcast that may have been capable of conveying hatred:  as submitted by the complainant, the negative tone of Mr Oldfield’s view was evident in his questions to Mr Keenan regarding the ‘conditions’ of the centres:

Mr Oldfield: [...] As far as living arrangements there on Christmas Island, I’m led to believe that they have yoga, cricket, the internet, library, is this right?

10 Burns v Dye [2002] NSW ADT 32 at [20], [62]. 11 Burns v Laws (EOD) [2008] NSW ADTAP 32.

ACMA Investigation Report – 2UE Drive broadcast by 2UE Sydney on 5 May 2010 8 [...] Then on the other hand though do I understand that the legitimate law abiding, working citizens of Australia who indeed are the construction workers on the Island are in somewhat different conditions?  Mr Oldfield repeated the suggestion that ‘if they do try [to escape], they’ll be fried!’, and brought to the minds of listeners the notion of human beings being ‘BBQd’; and  Mr Oldfield invited listeners to share his views:

Look, at the end of that with Michael Keenan, I was horrified and I hope you are as well. If the Coalition wants to win the next election you’d hope that they could at least undertake to flick a switch on the electric fences that supposedly keep these queue jumpers in the compound wouldn’t you?

The delegate considers that the Mr Oldfield’s comments were derogatory, inflammatory and capable of provoking negative associations in the minds of some listeners. In this regard, the delegate considers that the nature of the comments themselves, including the language used and intemperance of expression were in bad taste and offensive. However, given the high test for the prohibited behaviour set out in clause 1.1(e) of the Code, the delegate considers that it is unlikely that the material would have incited hatred against people arriving in Australia without authorisation because of their nationality or ethnic origin. In coming to this conclusion, the delegate has had regard to the following factors which diluted the tone of Mr Oldfield’s comments:  there was no direct causal link with the hatred expressed and the nationality and/or ethnicity of the group. Rather, Mr Oldfield’s comments conveyed a negative attitude towards people who are entering Australia without authorisation and are not genuine asylum seekers. The following comments are noted in this regard:

Yes, there’ll be a few genuine refugees amongst them. But they are generally modern day country shoppers. A true refugee flees to the point of safety. They don’t travel thousands and thousands of miles on boats, on international aircrafts, stopping for shopping, and all of that, to get to Australia. So don’t pay them too much sympathy where this is concerned.  Mr Oldfield’s comments were in the context of an interview with Mr Keenan, Shadow Minister for Justice, Customs and Border Protection, about the Coalition Party’s policy on border protect. In this regard, Mr Oldfield’s comments were not out of context of the issue being discussed;  Mr Oldfield spoke negatively of both the Government’s and the Coalition Party’s border protection policies:

[...] Regardless of what the Rudd Government tells us, regardless of, say the rattling posturing and heavy talk of Mr Rudd, the fact is that these people will bet on the record of the Rudd Government and have the absolute belief, and understandably so, that if they can get anywhere near Christmas Island our navy will escort them in and they’ll finish up in Australia. [...]  the ordinary reasonable listener would have understood the controversial presentation style of Mr Oldfield. In this regard, Mr Oldfield stated earlier in the

ACMA Investigation Report – 2UE Drive broadcast by 2UE Sydney on 5 May 2010 9 program that his views are not always agreeable but that callers were free to call the station and express their opposing views on air:

We’ve got lots of spots for calls today - looking forward to your views. We’ll be talking about what matters, that’s how I like to call it. But it’s a question of what you think matters. You can raise something that we haven’t raised. You may know something you want to pass on. Might be a particular current affair? Something that’s occurred in the news that you’d like to bring up? By all means, feel you can do so because you can. I, of course, will be speaking in the politically correct-free zone and so will you. I’ll tell you what I think. I don’t sit on the fence. Don’t be shy. Call me now on 131332.  the ordinary, reasonable listener would not have understood Mr Oldfield’s comments to be a call to action or persuasion to share his views. Rather, the comments were a combination of his reaction to the information imparted by Mr Keenan, and an attempt to provoke listeners response;  the broadcast contained countering viewpoints to those of Mr Oldfield’s, such as comments provided by Mr Keenan and caller one; and  Mr Oldfield’s comments were not sustained throughout the program. In the context of the program as a whole, the matter was not given undue prominence, and was restricted to the time within which the topic was discussed. The delegate is satisfied having regard to the factors canvassed above that the broadcast concerned would not be likely, in all of the circumstances, to incite hatred against any person or group of persons because of their ethnicity and/or nationality. Accordingly, the licensee did not beach clause 1.1(e) of the Code.

ACMA Investigation Report – 2UE Drive broadcast by 2UE Sydney on 5 May 2010 10 Attachment A Transcript, 2UE Drive, 5 May 2010 Mr Oldfield: Christmas Island is constantly in the news these days. Just yesterday, another boat was intercepted. Now I know you are all numb to this but this is the 50th boat to arrive just this year. But now we hear a story of a slightly different kind. A couple of days ago, an unhappy detainee tried to escape. Or should I say, succeeded in escaping. He scaled two wire fences and wandered off into the jungle. Now we are talking about an electric fence. The bloke climbed over an electric fence. Rubber soled shoes, rubber gloves you may ask? No. In fact if you are wondering why he didn’t get zapped, well the fence wasn’t switched on. It is a 400 million dollar immigration detention centre with security akin to a maximum security prison. They’ve spent a fortune on a facility designed to keep people in. But the fences are not turned on. Now Michael Keenan is the shadow minister for justice, customs and border protection. He’s recently returned from Christmas Island. And we’re grateful he’s been able to join us today. Michael. Good afternoon – thanks for being with us. Mr Keenan: Good afternoon David – my pleasure. Mr Oldfield: Great to have you on the program. Look tell us, what happened, did they just forget to turn the fence on? Mr Keenan: Look I’m not familiar with the circumstances of that case apart from what I have read in the Media. Certainly when we were there we were(n’t?) aware the fence wasn’t electrified. But I suppose it is just symptomatic of a much wider problem which is the fact that now the Government doesn’t have control over our borders anymore. That facility at Christmas Island is of course bursting at the seams. Just because of the unprecedented influx of people coming into Australia illegally. You mentioned that your listeners might be a bit immune to the 50th boat arrival. But that’s really quite extraordinary if you think about it that is the 50th boat arrival this year. And we’re not even in the middle of May. So what we’re finding is that our borders are now a complete free for all. And the Government is refusing to act as it should which is to actually control Australia’s immigration program, and they seem to be comfortable with it being outsourced to people smugglers who of course charge a very hefty fee for their services to bring people into Australia illegally. Mr Oldfield: A hefty fee, but lots of people are asking how could it be afforded by those who are supposed to be refugees fleeing for their lives as opposed to what they are actually doing which is catching international flights to make their way to Indonesia. Look Michael, can you tell me, you’ve just been there, now I understand the conditions for detainees are pretty good. You’ve been on the island what’s it really like as far as a detainee? Are they in 3rd world conditions with a bowl of gruel each day? Or they well looked after? Mr Keenan: Ah well I think it’s as good a facility of that type you’ll find anywhere in the world. The detainees are very well cared for. I have had people come to see

ACMA Investigation Report – 2UE Drive broadcast by 2UE Sydney on 5 May 2010 11 me to talk about how the detentions there seem to be some sort of hell hole or something like that. Nothing could be further from truth. Ah, every effort is made to make them as comfortable as possible. Certainly the detainees didn’t seem to be particularly unhappy. Ah, the ones that I had contact with. I would also say that, if you are intercepted by the Australia authorities, and that is the aim of um, when you are smuggled down here, and you are picked up and taken to that detention centre of course you’ve got a 99% chance of being sent permanently to Australia. So clearly while that continues, it just really churns people through that centre, then the detainees remain to be happy because they’ve achieved their goal which is to come here permanently. Mr Oldfield: Well the bottom line is that isn’t it. Regardless what the Rudd government tells us, regardless of say the rattling posturing and heavy talk of Mr Rudd, the fact is that these people will bate on the record of the Rudd government have the absolute belief, and understandably so that if they can get anywhere near Christmas Island, our navy will escort them in and they’ll finish up in Australia. Mr Keenan: Well, look, you don’t have to get anywhere near Christmas Island, I mean the other place which people aim for of course is the Ashmore Island. About 3 or 4 hailing days away from Christmas Island. The whole point is they know that if they come within Australian waters and picked up by our navy or customs services and actually call and ask our authorities to come and collect them a navy patrol boat will act as a taxi and take them to Christmas Island where they’ll be detained for a short period of time before ultimately, based on the record of the Rudd government, be let into Australia on a permanent basis. Mr Oldfield: So if you are on the high seas, who you gonna call? You just ring the Australian government, they escort you to the facility and look after you. Mr Keenan: Absolutely, I mean they will take you to the facility, and then you have every expectation that you’ll come here permanently and of course whilst that’s the case then Christmas Island or actually anywhere in Australian territorial waters is an absolute magnet for people to come down. An clearly there is no ... whatsoever in our Christmas Island facility whilst our Government is so weak and fails to show any resolve to actually control our immigration process. Mr Oldfield: If you’ve just joined us ... I’m speaking to Michael Keenan who is the shadow minister for justice, customs and border protection. Another boat’s arrived, fences are not electrified, these people are getting the best possible conditions and still they’re trying to escape, and of course they think as long as you get anywhere towards near Australia, you’ll finish up living here. That’s certainly the record of this government so far. Michael can you tell me, back on this condition situation, as far as the living arrangements there on Christmas Island, I’m led to believe that they have yoga, cricket, the internet, library, is this right?

ACMA Investigation Report – 2UE Drive broadcast by 2UE Sydney on 5 May 2010 12 Mr Keenan: Ah yes, all of those things are there, I mean as I’ve said, I think it’s the best facility of that type you’ll find anywhere in the world. Of course it was only built to house 400 people and we’ve constructed it and now contains about 2100. It explodes with the amount of people passing through it. But I think its the most comfortable facility that you’d find anywhere in the world of that type. Mr Oldfield: Then on the other hand though do I understand that the legitimate law abiding, working citizens of Australia who indeed are the construction workers on the Island are in somewhat different conditions? Mr Keenan: Ah well, Christmas Islanders just live, like all other Australians different ways and look certainly they have different conditions and ah... Mr Oldfield: I’m told that the construction workers and their families are in camp sites where they’re in basically transportable huts. Mr Keenan: Ah yeah, there is a lot of temporary accommodation there because of the surge of people that are moving.. Christmas Island has got a, traditionally very small permit population. Of course that population has been massively expanded by all of the Australian Government officials who have had to go there to deal with this influx of people. Ah whether that be navy personnel, Australian Federal Police, Immigration department officers, .. the company providing the guarding service there. Um, medical people, ... teaching staff, I mean you can imagine what it ah it is quite a small island, small property base, that is literally bursting at the seams. Mr Oldfield: Blind Freddy. Blind Freddied. To use the old phrase. Quite clearly knows the Rudd policy where this is concerned is a joke. Just briefly, the Coalition is elected, what is going to immediately change that is going to deter these people from coming? Mr Keenan: Well, we’ll do what we did in the past to address this question. Which is we’ll provide protection but on a temporary and not a permanent basis. Mr Oldfield: So no guarantee of staying in Australia? Mr Keenan: That’s exactly right and of course that is a big selling point if you’re a people smuggler you can go out and sell to people wanting to come to Australia is that, you can pay you know up to US$15000 and they will get you to Australia permanently. If you deny them the ability to sell that, then clearly it makes it much more difficult for them to apply their evil trade. We will also make sure that people are processed offshore. We won’t process people on mainland Australia. And it was a combination of these two things that actually solved this problem in the past. This is not a new problem, governments have faced this in the past, in the past we had a covenant that actually resolved to do something about it as opposed to the wishy washy sort of blah blah blah that we get from Kevin Rudd. Mr Oldfield: So no easy ride, no great voyage and of course no incentives for the queue jumpers. Just one final question for you. Michael, could you guarantee us that a coalition government will actually turn on the electric fences?

ACMA Investigation Report – 2UE Drive broadcast by 2UE Sydney on 5 May 2010 13 Mr Keenan: Ah, well that won’t be a decision for me within my ministry that will be a decision for my colleague Scott Morrison, but certainly.. Mr Oldfield: We’d all be hoping that the answer could only be ‘yes’. Mr Keenan: Well certainly we will have the resolve to address this problem. What I would like to see is no more people coming onto Christmas Island. Mr Oldfield: Surely you’re not telling me there’s a chance you wouldn’t turn on the electric fences. Mr Keenan: Well look I can’t speak for my colleague... Mr Oldfield: Oh dear. Mr Keenan: ... but I will say that we will have the resolve to address this problem. I’m sort of less concerned about the conditions of the detention centre than I am about stopping people from getting there in the first place. Mr Oldfield: Well we also don’t want them getting out once they’re there. But maybe we’ll have to pin down Scott Morrison on that one. I appreciate your time. Mr Keenan: My pleasure David. Mr Oldfield: All the best, bye. Well I don’t know what you made of that, um, it’s a bit of a disaster the whole fact that we’re getting thousands and thousands of people arriving here on these boats more and more all the time. Not forgetting of course the thousands that are arriving by plane, but that are not as obvious in their arrival. We can’t forget them. Look at the end of there, at the end of there with Michael Coogan I was horrified, and I hope you are as well. If the coalition wants to win the next election you’d hope that they could at least undertake to flick a switch on the electric fences that supposedly keep these queue jumpers in the compound wouldn’t you? They can’t even actually commit to flicking an actual switch? And turning on the electric fences? I think that’s a debacle and it is very unfortunate he wasn’t able to simply say ‘yes’. There are some very simple questions that can be asked to a Politian where the answer is ‘yes’ or the answer is ‘no’. It’s not a whole lot of waffle, and excuses, and buck passing, for colleagues and everything else. He should have just said ‘Yes, we’ll turn on the electric fences. We’ll stop them from coming. But the ones that are here we’ll make sure they can’t escape. And if they do try it, they’ll be fried! Mr Oldfield: [Caller One] welcome. Caller One: Well David, I’m not very happy about the way you spoke about those human beings that the electric fence should be turned on and they... Mr Oldfield: You talking about the ah the queue jumpers on Christmas Island? Caller One: and they fry? Listen these are human beings. I know they shouldn’t be coming over in boats and things like that, and I’m not happy that they are. But I wouldn’t want anybody being fried. Like you were saying, I don’t know what you’re..

ACMA Investigation Report – 2UE Drive broadcast by 2UE Sydney on 5 May 2010 14 Mr Oldfield: or be BBQ’d Caller One: ... on the radio for. I mean you should stay over in bloody 2GB. That’s the kind of place that’s always rubbishing everybody. Mr Oldfield: Everyone has a view Lynne. Caller One: They might, but you’re not for 2UE mate. I’m telling you you’re bad... Mr Oldfield: Well I guess we’ll find out that in the long term Lynn. Caller One: ... you’re bad Mr Oldfield: Thank you for that. Ah I’ve been called much worse things I must say. Now of course, the concept of frying relates to an electric fence, no-one’s seriously suggesting we whack them in a frying pan and sort of you know batter them up or anything like that, they wouldn’t taste very good anyway would they. But you know, everyone does have a view, and I’m not here to be agreed with. And I don’t mind being called bad or anything else. Some people will think that, some people won’t. Others would be cheering and saying ‘whack them on the BBQ!’. I mean goodness sakes, these people are coming here in ever increasing numbers. The government does nothing about it and forget about the idea that they are fleeing tyranny and everything else. It is quite a common practice for example in Afghanistan to go along and pay US$1500 as I said, to a corrupt official. And you can find a few of them in Kabul. And you get a VISA and you jump on an Aeroplane you know a jetliner, and you fly out of Afghanistan. You do a bit of duty free shopping in Hong Kong or Singapore on the way through. Land in Jakarta. Make your way South. And pay 15 or $20,000 to get on a boat and head towards Christmas Island. These are not people fleeing the Nazis in the World War II. These are not people with their worldly possessions bundled on their heads trying to cross the Swiss border. This is not what’s taking place. These are modern day country shoppers. Yes, there’ll be a few genuine refugees amongst them. But they are generally modern day country shoppers. A true refugee flees to the point of safety. They don’t travel thousands and thousands of miles on boats, on international aircrafts, stopping for shopping, and all of that, to get to Australia. So don’t pay them too much sympathy where this is concerned. And if you don’t like terms like ‘fry’ in relation to electric fences, well of course you can ring up and complain. As I say, I’m not here to be agreed with. I will however of course state my view. Because that’s why I’m here. And I’m also here to facilitate you stating your views. And you are more than welcome to ring up and say, as she did. Goodness, let’s have a chat to [Caller Two] perhaps? Caller Two: Hi David. I’m sick to death of all these do-gooders. I really am after listening to that woman. But anyway, can I say, that, why are these people, illegal immigrants, being given permanent visas? Why aren’t they given temporary visas until we find out what they are?

ACMA Investigation Report – 2UE Drive broadcast by 2UE Sydney on 5 May 2010 15 Mr Oldfield: Yes, find out what they are. In fact you’d probably be aware that the Government, thanks to Mr Rudd, have actually let a number of people who are security risks already into Australia. That’s been confirmed. Look, you’ve got a situation where it’s a policy change. When Labour came to power and Mr Rudd came to power they basically opened the borders and took down the fences and let everyone out and let them you know, do as they like. They’ll be billeting them with families sooner or later because they’re running out of room everywhere. The Coalition have responded to this and we need to keep them on it and push them further, they are saying that when they’re back in, if, when, however that may be, they will bring back in the temporary protection visas. Caller Two: But they’re aided by the do-gooders and a lot of refugee organisations. Mr Oldfield: Well, as you know they sometimes, from the boats, get on the mobile phones and call people, including Ian Rintoul, from the refugee crisis centre and get him to coordinate them being picked up. Caller Two: Yes, I just can’t, and, can I mention something on the sloping? [...] Mr Oldfield: [Caller Three], good afternoon. Caller Three: Good afternoon, David. How are you? Mr Oldfield: I’m good thanks. Thanks for joining us. Caller Three: Some people, all this, about these illegal immigrants. No one’s mentioned the cost to us, our taxpayers about this. Mr Oldfield: We do see it occasionally and it does run into the tens of millions where the operation of Christmas Island alone is concerned, yes. Caller Three: What are we missing out on to pay for these people? Flights, food, fees you know what I mean? Mr Oldfield: Absolutely, [Caller Three], and you Caller Three: That would build the North/West rail line. Mr Oldfield: Look we could start pointing the finger – don’t get me started on foreign aid! Anyway, look we could start pointing the finger at so many things that this Government, and the previous Government in many respects, is doing, what you and I would probably call misappropriation or improper prioritisation of the expenditure of our taxes. No doubt at all! Now of course, Adrian, we have to acknowledge that there are some of these people that actually deserve our help and it’s reasonable for us to do that. The question is how many and how much. Caller Three: That’s exactly right, I mean why are these people, they’re not business men. And this is a business. Mr Oldfield: Well, because they are not business men. They never have been. And I made the point a few moments ago and unfortunately our Treasurer and our

ACMA Investigation Report – 2UE Drive broadcast by 2UE Sydney on 5 May 2010 16 Prime Minister have never actually had to work in the real world. They’ve been buffeted and sort of wrapped in cotton wool, working in the ivory towers of diplomacy and political advice of MP’s. Have a look at their CV’s. You’d be horrified by what’s missing from it! Thanks for your call, Adrian. [...]

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