3204 6WF Conversations With Richard Fidler

Investigation Report No. 3204

File no. ACMA2014/314

Broadcaster Australian Broadcasting Corporation

Station 6WF

Type of service National Broadcaster

Name of program Conversations with Richard Fidler

Date of broadcast 15 October 2013

Relevant code ABC Code of Practice 2011 (revised in 2013)

Date finalised 20 June 2014

Decision No breach of standard 2.1 (accuracy) No breach of standard 7.7 (unjustified stereotypes)

ACMA Investigation Report 3204 – Conversations with Richard Fidler broadcast by 6WF on 15 October 2013 Error: Reference source not found

Background  In April 2014 the Australian Communications and Media Authority (the ACMA) commenced an investigation into the program Conversations with Richard Fidler, broadcast by the Australian Broadcasting Corporation (the ABC) on 6WF on 15 October 2013.  The program is described on the ABC radio’s website1 as

Conversations features real people telling true stories. They might not be famous but they have seen and done amazing things.  Elsewhere on the ABC website2 the program is described as:

Conversations is an immersive experience with people who have seen and done amazing things: a survivor of a London Underground bomb attack; a doctor fighting space sickness on the space shuttle; an exile from an outlaw motorcycle gang; a worker in a sanctuary for traumatised chimps, and many more.

Conversations is funny, surprising and often deeply moving.  On 15 October 2013 the program featured the interviewee recounting stories from her life including her experiences growing up in a particular Christian community and her work as a dominatrix in New York.  A transcript of the broadcast is at Attachment A.  In her complaints to the ABC, the complainant alleged that:  ‘the stories told by [the interviewee] are gross distortions’  the program included ‘lies’ about the person referred to as the interviewee’s uncle  references to ‘the practices of home schooling, exorcisms and living in a closed religious community are all lies.’  In particular, the complainant disputed a number of specific assertions made by the interviewee including:

In her interview she refers to an Uncle who was the pastor of the fundamentalist Christian church she attended within the closed religious community she was brought up in. She also claims this uncle routinely carries out exorcisms […]

These are lies:

[The interviewee] has never lived in a closed community, she lived on a few acres of land in the township [town] just north of Perth with her mother.

[The Uncle] has never been a Pastor, let alone a Pastor at a cult like church […]

[The Uncle] has never carried out an exorcism in his life.

1 http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/conversations/

2 http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2014/04/17/3988040.htm

2 [The interviewee] has never been home schooled […]

[The interviewee] did not escape her mother to live with [her] grandmother for three years before going to university, she has never lived with [her] Gran

[…]  The complainant also considered that the program included ‘faith based bigotry that seemed to be the agenda of the interview’ and stated:

Both Richard Fidler and [the interviewee] seemed intent on mockery and ridicule with Fidler stating his own personal opinions in this interview with derisive comments like “…there’s something quite mean spirited about Christians attitude concerning the rapture…like nah nah nah nah I told you so!” … [The interviewee’s] recounts painted all the Christian people she grew up with in a very negative light.

[…]  Relevant extracts of the complainant’s submissions to both the ABC and the ACMA are at Attachment B.  The ABC responded to the complainant that it did not agree that Mr Fidler was intent on ridiculing and denigrating a faith and that:

[...] it is our view that listeners will understand that this is one person’s recollection of their childhood and like all such recollections it is likely to be imperfect and that other people will remember the same events in a different way.

[...]  Relevant extracts of the ABC’s response are at Attachment C. Matters not pursued  The complainant also considered that the program included ‘defamatory statements’ about the uncle referred to in the interview. The ACMA does not have jurisdiction to make decisions in relation to defamation matters. Accordingly, these aspects of the complaint have not been investigated.  In her complaint to the ACMA, the complainant also raised concerns about impartiality and considered that the program breached the Code as it ‘was not giving Christian belief fair treatment’. As the complainant did not first complain to the ABC about alleged compliance with standard 4 (impartiality) of the Code as required under section 150 of the Broadcasting Services Act 1992 (the BSA), the ACMA has not pursued this aspect of the complaint in this investigation.

Assessment  This investigation is based on submissions from the complainant, the ABC’s response to the complainant and a copy of the relevant broadcast provided to the ACMA by the ABC. Other sources used have been identified where relevant.

ACMA Investigation Report 3204 – Conversations with Richard Fidler broadcast by 6WF on 15 October 2013 3 Error: Reference source not found

 In assessing content against the Code the ACMA considers the meaning conveyed by the relevant material. This is assessed according to the understanding of an ‘ordinary reasonable’ listener or viewer.  Australian courts have considered an ‘ordinary, reasonable’ listener or viewer to be:

A person of fair average intelligence, who is neither perverse, nor morbid or suspicious of mind, nor avid for scandal. That person does not live in an ivory tower, but can and does read between the lines in the light of that person’s general knowledge and experience of worldly affairs.3

 The ACMA considers the natural, ordinary meaning of the language, context, tenor, tone, visual images and inferences that may be drawn. In the case of factual material which is presented, the ACMA will also consider relevant omissions (if any).  Once the ACMA has applied this test to ascertain the meaning of the material that was broadcast, it then assesses compliance with the Code.  The ACMA’s investigation has considered the ABC’s compliance with standards 2.1 and 7.7 of the Code.

Issue: Accuracy

Finding

The ABC did not breach standard 2.1 of the Code.

Reasons  Standard 2.1 of the Code provides:

Accuracy

2.1 Make reasonable efforts to ensure that material facts are accurate and presented in context.  Relevant Principles in relation to accuracy in the Code include the following:

The ABC requires that reasonable efforts must be made to ensure accuracy in all fact-based content. The ABC gauges those efforts by reference to: o The type, subject and nature of the content;

o The likely audience expectations of the content;

o The likely impact of reliance by the audience on the accuracy of the content; and

o The circumstances in which the content was made and presented.

The ABC accuracy standard applies to assertions of fact, not expressions of opinion. An opinion, being a value judgement or conclusion, cannot be found to be accurate or inaccurate in the way facts can.

3 Amalgamated Television Services Pty Ltd v Marsden (1998) NSWLR 158 at 164-167.

4 [...]

The efforts reasonably required to ensure accuracy will depend on the circumstances. Sources with relevant expertise may be relied on more heavily than those without. Eyewitness testimony usually carries more weight than second-hand accounts. The passage of time or the inaccessibility of locations or sources can affect the standard of verification reasonably required.

The ABC should make reasonable efforts, appropriate in the context, to signal to audiences graduations in accuracy, for example by querying interviewees, qualifying bald assertions, supplementing the partly right and correcting the plainly wrong.

 The type, nature and content of a program and the likely audience expectations of that content play a role in determining reasonable efforts in ensuring accuracy.  The program Conversations with Richard Fidler is an interview format which allows listeners to hear an individual’s experiences of life. The ACMA considers it likely that the audience would expect the program to deliver a first person account of that person’s own experiences.  The requirement to ensure accuracy only applies to material facts, not opinion. The considerations the ACMA uses in assessing whether content is factual in character are set out at Attachment D.  The ACMA considers that the content of the program contains a mixture of opinions and assertions which can be characterised as factual. Statements that are not factual material  The ACMA notes that some of the statements which the complainant alleges are inaccurate are opinions, as they are subjective and judgemental statements.  For example, the complainant has asserted that reference to the Christian group as a ‘closed’ religious community is inaccurate. The ACMA notes that Mr Fidler referred to the religious community as a ‘closed’ community on one occasion. The ACMA considers that his reference to a ‘closed’ religious community is a judgment made by Mr Fidler on the basis of the interviewee’s views and recollections on growing up as a member of a particular Christian group. The ordinary reasonable listener would have understood him to use this term to describe a group that sets itself apart in some way from other Christian communities.  The ordinary reasonable listener would have also understood statements made by the interviewee concerning the nature of the community as being ‘fundamentalist’, and what this entailed, were opinion inasmuch as they were subjective and conveyed the interviewee’s views and recollections of her life.  Other matters disputed by the complainant were not explicitly stated by the interviewee or Mr Fidler but were inferences drawn by the complainant from what was said. For example, the interviewee talks about the conduct of exorcisms within the church, but does not specifically attribute the conduct of such exorcisms to her uncle. Nor does she state that her uncle was a Pastor in the church.

 Accordingly the requirement to ensure factual accuracy is not applicable in the cases discussed above.

Statements that are factual material  The program also contains statements that may be characterised as factual assertions. Some of the specific assertions made by the interviewee that were disputed by the complainant, include:

‘I was home schooled for a little while’.

‘he [my uncle] started this church in that area, in the town’

‘I moved to Grandma’s’

‘so there was exorcisms, they [the church] did do some exorcisms’  In considering the context of the program, which gives the listener the opportunity to hear the personal recollections of the interviewee, the ACMA considers the ordinary reasonable listener would have understood that they were listening to a very personal and subjective account and would not have relied too heavily on one person’s recollections in assessing the accuracy of any factual statements.  When considering whether the ABC made reasonable efforts to ensure material facts were accurate and presented in context the ACMA also notes:  the focus of the lengthy interview was the interviewee’s memories of childhood as part of a Christian community, her emergence to attend school and university, her work as a dominatrix in New York, her interest in Judaism and study of theology, rather than a focus on allegations against the church community and it members  it was not unreasonable of the ABC and the presenter to rely on the interviewee’s account of her recollections of her own life  the passage of time can affect the standard of verification reasonably required and many of the events recounted, particularly those disputed by the complainant, are from the interviewee’s childhood.  On this basis, the ACMA considers the ABC made reasonable efforts to ensure factual accuracy in the context of the program. Accordingly the ACMA finds that the ABC did not breach standard 2.1 of the Code.  The complainant also considers that the program breached standard 2.2 which prevents the ABC from presenting factual content in a way that will materially mislead the audience.  For the reasons stated above, the ACMA considers that ABC took reasonable steps to ensure factual accuracy and did not present factual content in a way that would materially mislead the audience.

Issue: Unjustified use of stereotypes

Finding

6 The ABC did not breach standard 7.7 of the Code.

Reasons  Standard 7.7 of the Code provides:

Harm and Offence 7.7 Avoid the unjustified use of stereotypes or discriminatory content that could reasonably be interpreted as condoning or encouraging prejudice.  Standard 7.7 of the Code must be applied in accordance with the overarching principles of standard 7. These include the following:

The ABC broadcasts comprehensive and innovative content that aims to inform, entertain and educate diverse audiences. Innovation involves a willingness to take risks, invent and experiment with new ideas. This can result in challenging content which may offend some of the audience some of the time […]

Applying the harm and offence standard requires careful judgement. Context is an important consideration. What may be appropriate and unacceptable in one context may be appropriate and acceptable in another. Coarse language, disturbing images or unconventional situations may form a legitimate part of reportage, debate, documentaries or a humorous, satirical, dramatic or other artistic work.  In applying the harm and offence standard the context of the program is significant. As noted above, the program provides listeners with the opportunity to hear the interviewee’s recollection of events in her life.  The ACMA notes that the interviewee’s childhood involvement in the church and her move away from her early faith based beliefs are central to her story. While some of the views expressed during the broadcast may be seen as presenting the Christian faith in a negative light, the discussion of religion is within the bounds of the interviewee’s experiences and how they impacted her life and is therefore relevant within the context of the program.  The ACMA also notes that Mr Fidler asks the interviewee on two occasions whether the church offered any benefits, asking whether the church had been able to help the interviewee’s mother and those members within the church that the interviewee said had drug and alcohol addiction problems.  While some of the comments made by Mr Fidler were critical of certain aspects of the ‘fundamentalist’ Christian faith described by the interviewee, the ACMA considers that the ordinary reasonably listener would have understood that these were made in the context of the interviewee’s experiences and would not be considered as encouraging or condoning prejudice against the Christian faith.  Accordingly the ACMA finds that the ABC has not breached standard 7.7 of the Code.  The complainant also considers the program breaches standard 7.1 which requires the ABC to ensure that content likely to cause harm or offence is justified by the editorial context. The ACMA notes that some of the views expressed concerning the ‘fundamentalist’ religious community have the potential to cause offence to those that may belong to, or associate themselves, with that community. However, for the reasons stated above, the ACMA considers them justified by the editorial context.

8 ATTACHMENT A

Transcript Richard Fidler (RF): Imagine how it would be for you if you’d grown up in a small community where just about everyone you know, including your mum, your uncle is a religious fundamentalist. There’s no TV, very little contact with the outside world, the devil is very real, and everyone has an expectation that the apocalypse is coming any day now where all the good people will be raised up to heaven and the sinners will be left behind to suffer the terrible tribulations of the devil. Then you grow up and you escape into the big wide world and you realise what it is you’ve been missing out on all this time. And you understand just how much you simply just don’t know about the world. Well you’d want to educate yourself as quickly and as thoroughly as possible wouldn’t you? This is how [Interviewee] was when she escaped a small community of believers outside of Perth. [Interviewee] left that apocalyptic form of human strangeness behind her and she travelled all the way to New York where she answered a ‘help wanted’ ad in the local paper for a really specific kind of job. The kind of job that she didn’t even know existed, in a dungeon. And this was the beginning of another education in, well, just how strange people can be. Hi [Interviewee]. Interviewee: Hello. RF: Where abouts did you grow up? Interviewee: Well I grew up in a small town ahh north of Perth and umm it was like undeveloped land. It was all bushland and it was just me and my mum, my mum was you know a single mum. I was an only child. Ahh there was no electricity and we lived in a caravan for I think about 3 years or something and then ahh – RF: Without electricity? Interviewee: Without electricity yeah. We, we had a generator and umm we sort of you know managed, but then we sort of moved from the caravan to a shed and then my mum sort of started building this house. And she was pretty amazing you know. She kind of just went out there, she’d left an abusive sort of relationship and she wanted just a clean break you know and she almost did everything. Well I don’t know if she did everything herself but you know she was clearing the land and doing fencing and you know I remember putting, concreting the stumps of the, the house – RF: You helped her with that as a little girl? Interviewee: Yeah, yeah and brick laying and stuff like this, yeah and there was only like a couple of families out there and my uncle was one of them because he owned a farm out there and he umm started this church in the, in that area, in the, in the town. Well it sort of was becoming a town back then, like you know, there was like a highway through it and to get to our place you sort of had to drive down a umm river bed and in winter it would be, everything would be flooded, like it would be underwater, it was like a swamp and then in the summer it was just like this dry, arid [chuckling] wasteland. RF: And this is what, like an hour out of Perth or something is it? Interviewee: Yeah it’s like an hour and a half from Perth. Yeah.

RF: So tell me about your uncle. What kind of a religious community was he trying to set up there in this, in this little middle of nowhere. Interviewee: Well, he believed that the rapture was upon us you know, that we were in the end times and so he was umm fundamentalist really. RF: So he set up this kind of little place up there just to await the end times essentially then? Interviewee: Well his, yeah sort of, his place but he was also a missionary. He would travel around, he was always umm out on the Aboriginal communities and sort of proselyting everyone that he came, came across and the little church community that he started in our town umm grew and, and there was sort of, I don’t know four or five church elders and they would all sort of you know minister or preach at the church and umm as the town grew the church kind of grew as well and - RF: What was your education like? Interviewee: Oh it was very hit and miss really. I’d sometimes, I’d go to schoo-, the local school umm but then I remember in year 1 a whole lot of us kids from the church we got pulled out of the local school cause they started to talk about Halloween and – RF: Oh, Oh and that was pagan. Interviewee: That was pagan yeah, yeah – RF: [in background] Right, right. Interviewee: and that, you know, was of the devil and we had to get out of that school and then I was home schooled for a little while and a lot of my, you know, friends were home schooled and then sometimes umm you know we just didn’t want to go to school so we didn’t have to go to school cause there wasn’t really any point because there was this Jesus is coming back soon there is no real – RF: [in background] Oh right Interviewee: real reason to go to school and there was always kind of a thing against secular education I guess. Like it was all, if it wasn’t of you know, the lord and if it wasn’t from the bible it really didn’t, wasn’t any point to it. RF: How many other kids were there around your age in this religious community? Interviewee: Well yeah there was kind of, I think there was probably about 10 girls my age and it was, it was unusual that there was sort of more girls than umm than boys. RF: What were some of the rules you had to live by? Interviewee: Well we didn’t ahh watch television. We didn’t have a television in our house, umm we didn’t listen to the radio, didn’t listen rock music. We kind of dressed quite modestly you know, we, I mean not all the time cause we were riding horses, we working in the paddock and stuff like that, so but a lot of the time we sort of dressed modest- we had to wear a hat and long sleeves and everything to church. RF: Was your mum umm of the same faith as your uncle in this case? Was she very much a part of church life?

10 Interviewee: Yeah absolutely. Yeah she was. She was very much umm into it and umm they pretty much they didn’t believe in remarriage so you know, which wasn’t much fun for my mum [laughing] you know. RF: Oh right. What kind of people made up that community? Interviewee: There was a couple big families like you know, with like five, six, seven kids and they, a couple of them sort of owned local businesses in the area and then there was kind of older people, sort of some retired people umm and just a lot of mostly young families really, a lot of young families and, and people would come to the church that, I guess they were looking for help and salvation and you know, some kind of new hope or whatever and umm so there was always kind of people coming in and out of the church quite a bit – RF: You were taking in lost souls? Interviewee: Yeah, yeah so and we’d had people stay with us or they’d stay with you know someone in the church community and umm some of them had really kind of you know damaged pasts drug addiction you know alcohol, you know. RF: Was the church able to help them much? Interviewee: Well huh umm that’s a good question because their idea of sort of helping someone because they were so heavily umm into you know demonology and that the demon or you know Satan has caused this problem in your life you needed to sort of be released from Satan’s hold so there was exorcisms, they did do some exorcisms. And I remember one guy, the exorcism was at our house actually. It was, I was probably like twelve or thirteen or something and I think the thing was, he had umm, he was a pot smoker and he wanted to be released from the demon of [laughing] – RF: From the demon of cannibas – Interviewee: From the demon of pot smoking. And so umm he lived in a caravan at our other friend’s house who were also, who were members of the church. So he came to our house, he had this, this exorcism and I was awa- up and about for a while and then I went to bed but I just, I remember him screaming like this, you know dying animal, and you know you would’ve been able to hear it across the whole town. It was just so loud and disturbing and then umm – RF: Was it releasing strange voices from him in any way? Interviewee: umm I just remember the, the screaming. It was just this blood curdling scr – scream and you know we had these new neighbours cause our block was like 5 acres and, and the new neighbours had just built a house across the paddock and I thought ohh they’re never going to talk to us again after this. And then he umm he ended up I don’t know if he was you know cured of his demons or whatever because he won lotto and we never saw him again. So you know obviously the lotto helped [both laughing]. RF: Draw what conclusions from that, as you might yeah. Did you ever know much about your father? Interviewee: Ahh no, no I, I didn’t umm I kind of, I thought my father was my mum’s previous husband for a long time, until I was about 15 and then umm it came out that he was umm someone else yeah.

RF: How did that come out? Interviewee: My mum had an exorcism and she told me after, after that. RF: What do you think of that process of exorcism now with the benefit of hindsight and where you are now? What, what actually happens in those, those moments? Interviewee: Well - ahh well I was kind of angry for a long time that I was stupid enough to sort of believe this, you know it’s such a fairytale, fantasy or something that a demon could take hold of your body and make you feel a certain way or think a certain way. You know now I kind of see those exorcisms, like a couple of my friends had them as well, like girls my age and, and stuff and I just think umm it was a means of sort of umm you know an emotional release, you know, a, a way to get the distress out of your body or something like, like that. RF: Do you think it umm I don’t know released some trauma from them or, or induced some trauma? Was it traumatising or was it the opposite of that? Interviewee: It was, well for me it was terrifying the thought that you know a demon could enter your body if you listened to rock music or something [chuckling] like, it’s just and when I was a kid hearing that I – RF: Oh right so you could get possessed by just not paying enough attention you mean? Interviewee: Yeah well you know rock music for example it got this voodoo beat in it and somehow that voodoo beat you know it has umm I don’t know how it works but you know somehow it [chuckling] transfers demons – RF: Satan sneaks in with all that syncopation. Interviewee: [chuckling] Yeah, yeah that’s right. But you know, it caused me a lot of nightmares and a lot of ahh terror when I was growing up that umm ehh and it’s kind of hard work keeping Sata- you know having that sort of wall up all the time trying to keep Satan and his minions out of your life and out of your thoughts and stuff. Like I was kind of always having feelings that weren’t good Christian feelings [chuckles] you know. I was jealous and resentful and kind of angry a lot of the time and – RF: What did your Mum want for you being part of the Church? Interviewee: Well I think her hope was that I’d umm I’d just get married and have kids I think that was the hope for most of the girls in the church. When we kind of got to about 15 they had this sort of this youth group and they would, because there was more umm girls than boys they would sort of like evan – evangelise these umm boys from town who I don’t think were very interested in coming to know Jesus you know, they were probably more interested in meeting young girls and so we’d have these sort of dinners and get togethers where it would – oh and then we’d have sort of beforehand we’d have some sort of bible study on umm what umm a good Christian girl does and what a good Christian boy does and these kind of things and you know I could see, that was the path we were meant to go on and a few of my friends got married really young and have now got 8 or 7 or 5 kids you know. RF: How was it for you in the situation where you weren’t living in the kind of stereotypical healthy normal Christian family where your mum was a single mum? Did you feel jealous of other kids who had more quote unquote normal families?

12 Interviewee: I did. I was yeah, I really wanted a Dad and I kind of felt like there was something a bit wrong with us and I kind of, I saw my mum being treated differently to a lot of the sort of wives in the community and especially the men and umm that – RF: Was she seen as a fallen woman?

Interviewee: Yeah, sort of like she was regarded with a lot of suspicion and you know how did she lose her husband sort of thing, like what did she do to upset her, her husband and she was very secretive about that you know, she never sort of told anyone what happened with her ex-husband and – RF: Did you ever get to the bottom of that and find out? Interviewee: Ahh I did, yeah, yeah a long time later but umm I guess like I always had the feeling that like umm because there was a part, you know men served God and women served men sort of thing. This was the thing that was taught in the community and I guess like umm I just thought maybe you know this is how a lot of my doubts started I thought maybe Jesus just doesn’t like women [laughing] that much you know there’s no real role for us here. RF: So would you go out to evangelise yourself? Were you going out to different places to try and get – Interviewee: Yeah. RF: [in background] Other people Interviewee: That was a big part of what we did because you know the rapture was coming, we were in the end times and my uncle was very focussed on Israel and, and whatever was going on you know the Gulf War or whatever was going on at that time and all of the signs that prophesized that we were in the, in the last days so it was quite stressful you know [starts laughing] you had to sort of tell people the message and save people and get them – RF: [in background] Call that good news too wouldn’t you Interviewee: to know Jesus. RF: You know, have you heard the good news, world’s coming to an end. Interviewee: [laughing] Yeah, yeah, yeah. It caused me a lot of anxiety because I really was kind of shy and didn’t really like talking to strangers and stuff so we had these little umm comic books they were sort of like wallet size little comic books. RF: Oh the Jack Chick tracts. They’re not called comi – Interviewee: Yeah have you seen them? RF: Oh yeah. God I have a collection of them. [Interviewee laughing in background] They’re amazing to read. Interviewee: They’re incredible aren’t they. And so usually, you know what happens in them is uhh someone is going about their sinful you know life and then a, a Christian comes along and tells them about Jesus and either, either – RF: They freak out then yeah – Interviewee: They freak out and then they go off and you know maybe they’ll get hit by a truck and then they spend the rest of their life in – RF: Hell. Interviewee: In the fiery depths of hell yeah. So – RF: You were handing these out to people?

14 Interviewee: Yeah so I, I, my worst nightmare was I would hand one to someone and they would go “What. What’s this? Tell me about Jesus” like you know that was the last thing I wanted to, you know, tell them about [RF laughing in background] was Jesus cause I’d just get so nervous even handing them one. I’d just go “Here y’are” and then run but so what I’d, we’d do is we used to sell oranges at the roadhouse and I would put the Jack Chick comic in the bottom of the bag of oranges cause then they would find it later and that would be much more desirable for me [laughing] so I wouldn’t have to go – RF: So [inaudible] would go “What the hell is this?” Interviewee: [laughing] Yeah so then it had all, all the stuff in the back they could you know just say and you know Jesus would come into their heart and everything so you know. RF: Given that those kind of millennial sects are into kind of numerology in a big way what did you think was going to happen on the 8/8/1988. Interviewee: Oh well that was the day my uncle and a few others, elders in the church, they thought that the world was going to end on that day. There was a lot of times, you know like even not that long ago it was the, the festival of trumpets in Israel and this happened and that happened beforehand. So my uncle you know told, told his neighbour, he’s got a rapture plan, he’s rapture ready so that when the rapture happens he’s told his neighbours what to do. He’s got a key hidden, he’s got envelopes to give to those you know in his top draw for those that are left behind but umm we didn’t go to schoo – , I remember we didn’t go to school that day because we ahh – RF: It was going to happen, what’s the point? Right. Interviewee: Yeah uhh I know, what’s the point and – RF: What happened when the end of the day came and you were all still there on earth and the rapture hadn’t come? Interviewee: Well it was kind of disappointing you know. Like it was we’re still here, we still have to you know feed the animals and get wood and get, you know, keep going umm sort of like that feeling of kind of being, having to go on with life afterwards you know and we still, we kind of have that feeling now. Like I remember when we turned 30, it was like ohh, you know when we were growing up we kind of thought that we’d never have to worry about the rest of our lives because that, that message was so, given to us so strongly that don’t worry about the future, don’t worry about this or schooling or anything because you know, the rapture’s going to happen any minute now [laughing]. RF: Were you ever worried the rapture might happen and you’d be left behind? Interviewee: I was, yeah I was really– RF: Because you’d had sinful thoughts. Interviewee: terrified of that happening and a lot of it came about from this film we watched because we didn’t wa- you know see shows or go to the movies or anything but we used to have film nights at church and one of the films we watched, and I must of been about 8 years old was called ‘Thief in the Night’ and it’s basically a stor – you know, left behind scenario and umm this girl you know she has to get the mark of the beast because you know, the One World Government’s taken over and umm she ends up getting caught, she goes out and tries

ACMA Investigation Report 3204 – Conversations with Richard Fidler broadcast by 6WF on 15 October 2013 15 Error: Reference source not found to hide but they catch her and they behead her in the end so this was kind of a terrifying scenario to me and yeah and it was a horror movie really it was yeah very scary but umm- RF: Did it give you nightmares? Interviewee: Yeah, I had a lot of nightmares and I was particularly worried about my grandmother who wasn’t saved, and wasn’t a, a Christian and I thought oh no, she’s going to get left behind [chuckling]. And you know a lot of the time I would have, you know, had an idea in my head of what I was gonna do. And there was one time I came home, and I’d been out riding my horse and it was kind of dusk but we used to get like amazing sunsets out there. And this one day the sky was like this bright red colour and everything had this sort of orange tone and I thought oh this is, this is really strange. And I got home to the front gate and umm and I called out ‘Mum, Mum come and have a look at the sky’ and she wasn’t, you know she didn’t come out and then I went in the house and umm there was apples stewing on the stove, the car was still there and all the house was open and you know, cause in this movie ‘Thief in the Night’ the girl wakes up and like her husband’s shaver’s going in the bathroom sink and she looks out and there’s a, there’s a lawn mower and it’s going but there’s no – but you know the lawn’s half mowed but nobody’s pushing it and then she goes to the neighbours and there’s a blender going and everything’s on but nobody is there because they’ve all been taken in the rapture. So I looked at this and I looked out and I looked across the paddock and I couldn’t see anyone and I, I thought oh my God, the rapture has come [laughs] and I’ve been left behind and I thought I’m possibly the only person left out of all my born again Christian friends and family and now I’m gonna have to face you know the 7 years of tribulation. And I really, I can’t describe the, the level of, of fear that I had and this feeling of how lonely I was gonna be and my plan was that rather than be beheaded like which is what happens in the movie. I was gonna starve myself to death so I thought OK, I could eat everything in the pantry because you don’t want to be too hungry [laughing] when your starving yourself. And then I was going to hide under the bed. And then I think I rang and I think I thought ohh you know don’t be an idiot you know, you go to church, you believe Jesus died for your sins, you know, you’re being crazy and then but you know I kind of like thought well you know you do always get really bored at church and you do have inappropriate thoughts about mating the sheep with the pony and [both laughing] those kind of things. And you know, you’re really jealous of your friend [name] [RF laughing] and you’ve never really been a very, you know you haven’t done everything you could and then so I rang one of the, the neighbours and no answer, you know, and I thought oh gosh, you know, it’s just me and the dog you know. And then I think I started, you know, I ate all the ice-cream in the, in the fridge cause I thought oh you know the rapture’s been and I can do what I like [both laughing] and then you know I think I ate you know some cereal and some mil – Oh and some cooking chocolate, I ate all the cooking chocolate I could find and then I felt a bit sick and then so I went and I like made like a little cubby under the bed. And a lot, this happened you know, with a lot of my friends as well because these movies just had such a terrifying impact on us. And while I was under the bed I remember the movie, you know, kept going through my head and how Unite was One World Government in the movie and I thought Unite, they’re gonna come for me and you know, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve just gotta stay here and umm – RF: So you were hiding under the bed awaiting the jack booted fascist policeman of the anti- christ?

16 Interviewee: Yeah. And they drove these white vans and they had like umm you know a guillotine in the back of their vans and they just you know if you didn’t have the – RF: Universal price code symbol stamped on your forehead – Interviewee: Yeah, Yeah Yeah – RF: they’d cut your head off? Interviewee: cut your head off basically. RF: [in background] Right. Interviewee: And I started to get really – uhh you know when you’re a kid you sort of like get yourself into this state and I was in that, that sort of state of just complete terror and it was, it had started off a little bit and then it had sort of snowballed into this terror and the theme song of the movie was running through my head [sings] ‘You’ve been left behind’ [laughs] and I was just having these visions of you know, this, this girl getting beheaded in the movie and then umm the phone rang and I thought I’m not going to answer it you know. I, I was too scared to even answer the phone and I don’t know I thought it was Unite and then umm I finally kind of got out, out from under the bed and I umm answered the phone and it was the other neighbour from down, sort of down the road and she said ‘Oh hi love, your Mum’s just over here, [laughing] she’s gonna stop for dinner’ and [swears] I yeah I’m not hungry thanks. RF: [laughing] I’ve eaten all the ice-cream and cooking chocolate. Interviewee: [laughing] Yeah RF: Oh [Interviewee] aside from the dagginess of all that, I think there’s something sort of mean spirited behind that whole idea of apocalyptic rapture. You know, you all laugh at us Christians, good Christians now but there will come a day where we will be raised up to the bosom of Christ – Interviewee: [in background] Yeah. RF: and you will suffer the awful torments of the, the end times – Interviewee: [in background] Yeah. RF: and then you’ll go to hell for the rest of your life and we, you‘ll see you were wrong and we were right. So it’s a kind of a great kind of ner ner ni ner ner moment really in a way. Interviewee: [in background] Totally, yeah. RF: There’s something quite mean spirited about that. Interviewee: Yeah, absolutely, yeah. They want to be right, you know. They want to be umm vindicated in the end. And like I don’t know I was angry and that they believed all of that for such a long time and that my mum was so you know beguiled by it and when I came out of the church and stuff and kind of ashamed that they were so stupid, that anyone would believe this crazy story. But now I kind of think – RF: Yet you believed it? Interviewee: And I believed it as well yeah, yeah. And I kind of think they were just really hurt by life a lot of the people that were in that Church and they sort of wanted some reward or some kind of umm –

RF: Lottery ticket win. Interviewee: Yeah, feeling that they’d done well that they’d served God well that they’d – RF: They’d been redeemed. Interviewee: Done a good thing. That yeah. RF: Despite all this kind of craziness, was this church helpful to your Mum or not helpful to your Mum? Interviewee: Well, like she suffered from chronic depression and was kind of quite isolated and I kind of think, there was some good things about it yeah like you know, having that community and all carrying that burden together and kind of you know there was this real big feeling of camaraderie and like we were all doing the work of the Lord together you know so and that was kind of a nice feeling and I think like if she, you know, had of been a single mum and we lived out in the suburbs and I don’t know whether she would’ve had the same kind of level of support and feeling of community and stuff. That was kind of a good thing but I mean that’s one of the reasons she moved out to the church and, and wanted to be, and wanted to be so, part of that community. But umm when she got cancer it sort of all turned a bit sour and umm they weren’t the supportive community that she hoped for I guess. Voice Over: You’re listening to Conversations with Richard Fidler on ABC local radio and the world wide web. RF: My guest is [Interviewee] who grew up in a closed and isolated religious community just an hour out of Perth where every day she was expecting the end times to fall upon them. [Interviewee] you mentioned there that you were worried during that episode where you thought everyone had been raptured up to heaven and you’d been left behind, the reason why, maybe, you’d been left behind was because you’d begun having doubts. Given that the devil was kind of a very real person in your life in those days did you think that those thoughts, those doubts were being put in your head from someone outside of you, like the devil? Interviewee: Uhh yeah I sort of vacillated between thinking that yeah I had a demon and I was told you know, about the nightmares, you know ahh my mum talked to my uncle about that and you know, I had the spirit of fear and the spirit of [chuckles] you know and so I, that could be exorcised from me I guess. And yeah this feeling of you weren’t sort of in charge of your own thoughts or feelings or umm thinking you know, so – RF: So were you feeling like you needed to be vigilant all the time to stop Satan sort of sneaking in to your brain sideways or sneaking in through this door or through that door or climbing in through this window? Interviewee: Yeah. There was a lot of – sort of you don’t question things, you don’t sort of look at the secular world, or, or read anything that’s not related to the Word and related to the Lord and related to you know the path that – RF: So this is no TV, no radio, no music – Interviewee: Yeah – RF: [in background] Well rock’n’roll music

18 Interviewee: But I would cheat I would sort of, I was always kind of very rebellious. Like every time my mum would ahh leave me in the car and go into the shops I would [laughing] turn the radio on and I would listen to music and I would umm you know and I’d steal books when we visited my, my grandma in hospital and, and I’d, cause I’d really wanted, I always wanted to know about the outside world and umm yeah, just a big thirst for knowledge. My mum called it a morbid fascination [laughing] with, with anything sort of ungodly. I was always drawn to, to things a little bit and uhh – RF: That’s an interesting phrase ‘morbid fascination’. Interviewee: Yeah. RF: You mentioned that your mum got cancer. What kind of cancer did she get? Interviewee: Ahh she got breast cancer. She got it twice, once when I was umm 10 and then another time when I was umm 14, 15. The first time was really hard because it was diagnosed really late. She umm sort of sat me down and said she wasn’t sure whether she was going to live through it. You know she sat me down and said if I don’t survive you’re gonna have to live with the [name], this family in Church, and it was a really horrible thing to hear and it was really hard to hear because my mum and I we were so, I mean we had sort of volatile relationship and a very intense relationship but it was just us. It was just me and mum a lot of the time and we were sort of umm we were very close and there was quite a few derogatory things said about my mum because you know she was a single woman and – RF: So the breast cancer was some kind of physical manifestation of sin within her body? Interviewee: Yeah – RF: How did that – did you believe that? Interviewee: Umm I started to sort of think well maybe yeah there’s something wrong, we’ve done something wrong in the eyes of God. And I heard some women talking about my mum at Church and they kind of said derogatory sort of things and umm yeah I started to kind of believe it, I guess, in some ways. RF: Did she survive it? Interviewee: Yeah she did survive it yeah. She survived it twice, so umm that was, pretty amazing. I think that was her sort of – beginning of her journey out of the church really because she didn’t get any of the support that she thought she would from that community and it was kind of like they, they, not turned on her but they just had a weird idea about cancer back then as well and I think there was just a lot of fear and they were really kind of scared like you could catch it or something. I don’t know, but I remember her coming home from hospital and nobody visited, and like for weeks I was there you know, as a 10 year old kind of doing all the washing and all the cleaning and cooking and everything and, and nobody came near and that was a real kind of eye-opener for my mum I think. RF: Did you start rebelling? Interviewee: I left sch – school when I was 14 and I worked full-time on the, in the market gardens. I guess my rebellion, like I decided in that year that I wanted to go to school and to continue my schooling later on at some stage and I remember my mum and my uncle sort of trying to talk me out of that. Cause there’s no point you know, university was seen as this kind

ACMA Investigation Report 3204 – Conversations with Richard Fidler broadcast by 6WF on 15 October 2013 19 Error: Reference source not found of Satanic sort of [laughs] institution that was full of you know, bad ideas [chuckles] and I guess like my pull was to sort of go and you know get an education and umm and I didn’t want to be working on a farm for the rest of my life. I didn’t want to get married and have kids at that stage. I didn’t want any of that. RF: So how did you get out? Interviewee: I remember one night I ran away, and this was kind of the beginning of my mum really saying she needs to kind of go to school or something outside of the community and so umm we had like a, someone’s car on the property, a spare car and I took that car and I drove to Perth and my mum followed me I remember and she ran out of petrol half-way [laughs]. RF: She was stranded? Interviewee: She was stranded in the middle of no-where and then I went to Perth and I slept in the car and then you know my mum was really worried and called the police and everything. And anyway sheepishly you know came back and then they sort of prayed over me and umm – RF: Made you feel bad. Interviewee: Made me feel bad and asked me to sort of I guess repent and not umm have these you know ideas that I wanted to go and get an education [laughs] which was seen as just this terrible bad thing. And then, so that was sort of the beginning and then umm I ended up, I moved to ahh Grandma’s and then I, I so I did sort of like a year 10 bridging course and then I did year 11 and 12 and then you know later on I, I, I went to university and – RF: So getting out of that community and going to Perth and going to Uni I suppose was like stepping off the edge of the known world in some ways for you? Interviewee: Ohh I it was and I kind of – RF: Columbus going to the Americas or something you know – Interviewee: Yeah, I didn’t know how things worked. Like I didn’t know how to enrol in university [laughs] even basic stuff like that. I didn’t, I didn’t know what to sort of say or how, how to be umm and I didn’t want to tell anyone that I’d come from this community because I was just it was I was so ashamed and I thought, people are going to think you’re an idiot. RF: Now that you’ve made that leap into university did you sort of plunge headlong into the world of sin, of you know sex, drugs, boyfriends, rock’n’roll? Interviewee: Ohh I was dying to you know. I was looking for any opportunity, like I’d never been around people that smoked or drank and I was really annoyed about it and it all looked so exciting to me and, and that’s when my grandfather passed away and left me some money and umm then I went to New York. RF: From a little religious community to Perth, then you get some money and then you go to New York. Wow. That must’ve seemed very, very strange for you stepping off the plane in, in uhh in New York and going into Manhattan. What kind of work did you find while you were in New York? Interviewee: I, you know, I realised my money was gonna umm run out pretty quick and I didn’t have a green card and I, I met this, I had a new Israeli backpacker friend and we were reading the paper one day and he goes ‘If I was a tall blonde girl, this is what I’d do’ and he

20 pointed to this ad and it said Dominatrix, role playing and sexual fantasies, no sex required. And I though oh, that’s interesting yeah, yeah. RF: Did you know what a dominatrix was? Interviewee: I said what does a dominatrix do? That was my next question. I went to the you know, I got an interview with this woman and I went and met her. She was down like in the Fisherman’s Wharf and the dungeon was actually upstairs in this two bedroom apartment [laughing] RF: Upstairs dungeon. Interviewee: Yeah [laughing] an upstairs dungeon. So this woman, she was this morbidly obese lady. Never left the apartment. Basically from 11 – 5 we waited for clients in her bedroom, sitting on her bed while she watched daytime television ahh and ordered food n stuff in. And the other room, the front room was the – RF: The dungeon itself was it – Interviewee: Dungeon yeah. RF: What was in the dungeon? Interviewee: There was like some boards where you tied, what you tied people up to. And there was all kinds of implements and like this is what was hard for me, cause I was always using the wrong implement or something. I never knew what implement I [laughing] should be using. Somehow I’d get it wrong and – RF: And what did you have to wear? Did you have to wear that classic dominatrix outfit? Interviewee: Yeah. She had this amazing wardrobe actually that umm filled up half her room and so we would like spend a lot of the time we were waiting for clients like dressing up in these outfits. And there was uniforms and – RF: What kind of men would come to be given a hard time by you? [laughing] Interviewee: Yeah well it was near Wall Street so a lot of them were from the Wall Street district, finance. Really kind of looks like you know normal finance guys and then they’d want to be, you know, put in a nappy and pretended they were a baby or something like it [laughing]. RF: That really does happen does it? That’s not just some kind of movie cliché? Interviewee: No, no that’s the thing. It, it really does happen and it was kind of good for me because I lacked a lot of confidence and I had no knowledge especially sexual knowledge and stuff and so and also cause I was so ashamed of my weird upbringing seeing these guys that wanted to sort of re-enact [RF laughing in background] some bizarre thing that happened in their childhood, or lick the sole of your foot or something was like, I’m not that weird after all. RF: After all. Did, did, were you always successful in restraining laughter? I mean because I would’ve thought there would be moments there where you just had to explode with laughter. Interviewee: Yeah well you know, I wasn’t a very good dominatrix, I have to say it. It was all a bit beyond me [RF laughing in background] it was like the bumbling dominatrix umm and I remember like we used to have sort of regular clients and there was this one guy that was

ACMA Investigation Report 3204 – Conversations with Richard Fidler broadcast by 6WF on 15 October 2013 21 Error: Reference source not found sort of like a Tony Soprano type of guy from New Jersey and he would come in and every time he’d come in he had this one scenario he wanted to re-enact and it was like a shooting scenario. So you’d be hopping into your car and he’d come with a gun and he was gonna shoot you and you’d have to be scared and go ‘No don’t shoot me’ [laughing] and then he’d shoot you and you’d have to die in this certain way and he would just get so annoyed when you wouldn’t die right. He’d go ‘Haven’t you seen anyone get shot?’ Oh and it was with a machine gun which was even extra hard to die cause you have to do that whole shaking thing [RF laughing] and I’d go ‘No I haven’t seen anyone get shot with a machine gun’ and he’d go ‘Don’t you watch television?’ and I was like well it’s a long story [both laughing] and he, he’d just get so annoyed and then so he’d re-enact it. RF: So, so with all this madness going on, you said when you saw the job ad it said you know dominatrix no sex required but was that the truth of it? Were you required to have sex with these men? Interviewee: No. There was no sex and, and then the head Dom, [name] her name was and she was really adamant. And you know sometimes you were like the guardian of a lot of secrets I guess. And you know some of the stories you’d hear, I mean everything would be laid out on the table and guys would talk about their families and their wives and their kids and sometimes a lot of the sessions would be you know, talking and them trying to figure out why they wanted to do these things and cause they were wondering themselves you know and – RF: What do you think it says about people that, that and these are often men who are coming to you who, who are high-powered, high income Wall Street types why it is that sometimes such people need to feel helpless or need to be chastised? Interviewee: Yeah well that was what I sort of had trouble understanding cause I thought, I would look at them and I’d think wow you’ve got so much power you know, you’re so and there they were wanting to be powerless. I mean what does that say? I guess that it’s a lot of pressure having power and – RF: They were like acting out a role in their powerful jobs. Interviewee: mmmm RF: and this, this allowed them to just to put the mask of that down for a while. Interviewee: Yeah, I think so, yeah. RF: Did you have a boyfriend at the time all this mayhem was going on? Interviewee: I did yeah umm – RF: Did he know, did he know what you were doing? Interviewee: No he didn’t. He was a nice Jewish boy and– RF: Did he find out what you were doing? Interviewee: He did umm and you know by that stage we’d sort of fallen in love and all of that and he umm I didn’t tell him because I kind of thought, it was one of those jobs that I thought oh I won’t be doing this very long and oh it’s really kind of, and part of me couldn’t believe I was actually doing it. I had trouble telling him obviously cause I didn’t tell him and, and also he sort of put me on a little bit of a pedestal I think. This kind of a naive country girl coming

22 from some born again Christian community to the middle of Manhattan like and all this time you know I was beating up you know – RF: Businessmen in nappies– Interviewee: Stockbrokers ‘n [laughing] stuff. RF: [laughing] Interviewee: So the way he found out. I kind of had told my mum and well I told my mum. Well cause my mum would call me every other day you know and I, I was working in this Italian restaurant which I didn’t think was far from the truth because there was an Italian restaurant under the, the dungeon – RF: The dungeon. Interviewee: He tried to call me at work one day at this restaurant and then he got the message bank, you know the recorded message and it said the restaurant wasn’t open that day that I’d said I was going to work and then so he confronted me when I came back and he said “You weren’t, you don’t work in a restaurant. Where do you work?” And I had to explain it to him and he was really hurt, he was really devastated. We were – RF: Were you going to get married? Interviewee: Yeah we were going get married. And that’s how my umm interest in Judai – , well you know I was going to convert to Judaism at that stage and then – RF: Were you studying to con- to become Jewish? Interviewee: Yeah, yeah. RF: So at this point [Interviewee] you’d grown up in a fundamentalist Christian ahh community, you’d gone to New York, you’d become a dominatrix at the same time you were converting to Judaism [Interviewee laughing] and, and studying the Torah Interviewee: Yeah umm – RF: Did the sheer weirdness of that ever strike you at any point? Interviewee: Well it was very hard sort of pulling that structure down, that I’d been, I’d, I’d grown up with. And once you try and pull that structure and that belief system down it’s like you’re left with I don’t know. The world looked desolate, I didn’t know what, that kind of belief system was so rich and ingrained and so intense. And then you know I see orthodox Judaism and [laughing] that’s kind of, I don’t know it kind of looked almost natural in a way or something. You know I was really struggling with my belief in God and I had a lot of anger towards God and then so you, you see a Jewish God and it looks a whole lot umm better and, and, and more benign and forgiving and umm its sort of, it doesn’t seem like a natural progression but in some ways like uhh we grew up with, it was very old Testament base so you sort of learnt you know we were always learning about the Jewish people and watching Israel all the time and there was this great sense of like the narrative of the Jewish people and uhh it just felt like you know we even celebrated Passover and stuff like that so it kind of seemed almost like a natural progression for me at the time. RF: But could your appearance be anymore Shiksa like than what it is? Interviewee: [laughing] I know. I know.

RF: Tall, blonde, pale, anglo – Interviewee: Yeah – RF: Girl. So you’re studying that and did that give you a kind of more control over your own spirituality? Interviewee: Yeah, it, it did. Sort of like I was reclaiming it for myself you know. You know and it seemed like a more intelligent belief or something to me because there wasn’t this finality of heaven or hell and there wasn’t the amount of fear that was so inherent in what I believed growing up and it sort of seemed like something you could integrate into a sort of a more normal life and – RF: Did you go through with it? Did you actually fully convert? Interviewee: No. I mean I broke up with that guy and then I continued it and I moved to Melbourne and I went to ahh an Orthodox Synagogue and I did you know, I studied a lot. But then it ended up umm I studied umm Hebrew and a Jewish, ancient Jewish course or something at Monash University and I turned, I sort of started turning it in to a theology degree. RF: A theology degree? Interviewee: [laughs] Yeah. My thesis which I was doing was on umm ahh Abraham and Isaac and the sacri – sacrificing of Isacc. RF: What did you conclude from that, cause that is one of the most intense and weirdest parts of the Old Testament where Abraham is commanded by God to slaughter his son Isaac as a sacrifice to him. Interviewee: [in background] Yep. RF: Abraham is a good Godly man so he agrees to do it, holds the knife to his beloved sons throat and then an angel intercedes at the last minute as says nah - Interviewee: Here’s a ram in the bush – RF: Yes you don’t need to do it after all. What do you make of that story now? Interviewee: You know I got into – RF: Cause it’s such an illustration of unquestioning obedience to, the word and the law of God isn’t it? That’s what it’s really about that story, or not – Interviewee: Yeah, well yeah. I mean I don’t know. It’s funny how I went from, I went into the theology degree still a believer and then I came out [laughs] it’s like the more I learnt, the more I studied, the less I believed in God and umm – RF: Do you still pray? Interviewee: No. RF: What happened when you got back from New York? Interviewee: I ran into umm a friend ahh at a church shindig umm a friend that I grew up with. Like she was the sister of my other friend, who I, it was the only person I told what I was doing in New York, and that I was, that I was working as a dominatrix. And so she had somehow

24 told my mum, cause my mum and like the last thing I wanted in the world was for my mum to find out- RF: That you were a dominatrix? Interviewee: What I was doing. I felt like I would just rather die. And my mum rang me up one day, when I was in the you know the, the dungeon waiting for clients and she goes “ohh” and I could tell straight away she was in you know a tizz and she said “You’ll never believe what [name’s] been saying about what you’ve been doing in New York.” And I just, I felt so sick, like and I said “What did she say?” and she goes “I can’t even. I can’t even tell you it’s so disgusting that [name] you know she’s got a, err what a mind she’s got you know she’s telling all these terrible things. Where does she get these ideas from?” And like so my mum doesn’t even believe what [name’s] told her, you know [laughs] that I’m working as a dominatrix and just – RF: What just cause it’s too wildly improbable – Interviewee: It’s too bizarre and it’s too – she can’t even comprehend it. And also she thinks I’m working in an Italian restaurant [laughs] too. And so then when I went back to, I came back to Perth and I saw [name] at this church shindig and I go “[name], why did you tell my mum that I was working as a dominatrix? You’re an idiot you know”. And she goes, she goes “Ohh you weren’t really, nobody believed that we just thought you were trying be all cool and nobody believed you were a dominatrix”. Like it was just so far off the, the, it was too unbelievable really. RF: Tell me about Mr [X]. Interviewee: Well he umm when we were growing up in the Church he was like the fashion police you know. If you didn’t wear long sleeves and a long dress and if he didn’t think your dress was modest enough he would give you this, this talking to. Like you know you needed to help the sinful nature of men by dressing appropriately so they could keep their thoughts pure [laughs]. And so one time I went to bible study and I was wearing jeans cause I’d been I don’t know some camp, rounding up cattle or something on my horse and he took me aside and he said “[Interviewee] those jeans are not appropriate, they’re making me have improper thoughts.” And I just was like – RF: Oh what a creep [laughs]. Interviewee: Ohh, ohh I felt so disgusted and ashamed like this old man, he’s married and everything he’s having these and I was like 15 you know, and, and then, oh and then he like took out the bible and went to Mathew 5 and it says even if a man lusteth after a woman it’s as if he’s already committed adultery. So it’s like ohh we’ve committed adultery eww [laughing] and anyway umm then like after I’d left the church and after I’d been to New York as a dominatrix and all of this kind of stuff you, you know and I’d felt like really empowered as a woman and all this kind of stuff. My friend [name], I caught up with her and she’d grown up in the church as well and she’d remembered Mr [X] and all of that. And anyway she’d got an apartment in Northridge in Perth and it was just like so exciting like she’s you know, and anyway we went out we bought a bottle of Irish Cream cause that’s what we thought people drank back then and, and we went back to her apartment and it was kind of a seedy block of flats really and the elevator opened and there he was. The elder, Mr [X] from the church, with

ACMA Investigation Report 3204 – Conversations with Richard Fidler broadcast by 6WF on 15 October 2013 25 Error: Reference source not found this woman that was wearing like an outfit that was just designed with unclean thoughts in mind, like – RF: Wow. Was she a prostitute? Interviewee: Yeah she was, she was a prostitute yeah. But my feeling was, when I saw him I straight away went back to this feeling of just, I looked down I was wearing jeans, I hid the bottle of Irish Cream I just was like Oh my God I’ve been caught you know and I hopped in the elevator and I just had this sick kind of feeling like ohh. But he didn’t even see us because he was busy with the, the prostitute [laughing] And, and then I you know we were up in [name’s] little apartment and I was kind of pacing you know my shame kind of turned to anger and I was getting really riled up and I think cause I thought hang on here’s this guy who made me feel so bad about how I dressed about you know and made him think in a certain way and here he is fornicating with a harlot you know and umm – RF: So what did you do with this knowledge [Interviewee]? Interviewee: So well I was pacing around the apartment for a while and then I looked out into the car park and I saw his ute and I knew it was his ute cause he always had the same Toyota dual cab ute and I said to [name] “We cannot let this sin go unpunished” and we starting coming up with ideas and you know we’d had a bit to drink and stuff and ahh and she said “Let’s uhh you know we’ll fill his car full of bibles, like we’ll highlight every verse that deals with fornication you know [RF laughing in background] and then we’ll steal his car” and [name] is wanting to ring his wife and tell his wife and I was like no, no that will hurt her more than it will hurt him and what we really want to do is make him feel ashamed. Like he made us feel ashamed. So I had my most badass idea yet and that was to write him a note [laughs] but the note I had planned to sign-forge my uncle’s signature who was you know someone he would’ve respected and you know been scared of. So we wrote this letter and it started off ‘the eyes of the Lord are everywhere’ [laughs] and, and it was all you know we quoted all these bible verses about fornication and you know basically told him he was gonna go to hell and in the end we signed it from my uncle and we put it on his car and found out you know, a couple of years later he got divorced from his wife and there was rumours going round that he was seeing prostitutes it the city. I don’t know, I don’t know where they came from [laughs] RF: So from this life then you do a theology degree and then you complete that and, and here you are now. When you think of that life that you used to have and the life after that, the life kind of before and after the fall if you like. Is it, is it like moving from a black and white world into colour or is it the other way round? Was that life in that closed Christian community more colourful or was it more black and white? Or do you even think of it in those terms [Interviewee]? Interviewee: Well umm I don’t know cause there was some really good things about it like I said before. And like sometimes in my life I’ve had periods where I kind of long for that certainty you know. There was so much certainty, and there was so much umm like it just sort of makes it easy to believe a story like that and you get told that story and the story becomes your truth. It makes life kind of easy you know. I sometimes find my brain wanting that you know one extreme black and white view of the world. And that’s kind of been my journey since then is to try and I don’t know get my thinking back, get my mind back and all of that and umm it takes a while cause you know my thinking has changed but then it takes a while for your feeling to sort of catch up to that. It’s almost like I think there is no hell and there’s no

26 heaven but there is still that those feeling that come back from the past that you know [gasps] you’re doing something wrong that there’s going to be some punishment. It’s kind of, it’s very hard to un-train your brain you know. RF: To un-think that thought. Interviewee: To un-think the thinking that you’ve always been drawn into kind of thinking. RF: And how are you going, how are you going living in this fallen world now [Interviewee]? Interviewee: Ohh I’m quite of enjoying it, you know it’s ok, it’s ok at the moment, yeah. RF: What an amazing story [Interviewee] thank you so much. Interviewee: Thank you. Voice Over: You’ve been listening to a podcast of Conversation with Richard Fidler. For more information and interviews visit abc.net.au/conversations.

ATTACHMENT B

Complainant’s submissions The complainant submitted the following to the ABC on 19 December 2013:

[Interviewee] … is a liar who has created a total fantasy of childhood "memories" with which to commercialize herself as an aspiring writer/poet to make herself more appealing for public consumption.

[Interviewee] has defamed [the uncle]. In her interview she refers to an uncle who was pastor of the fundamentalist Christian church she attended within the closed religious community she was brought up in. She also claims this uncle routinely carried out exorcisms. Without naming names anyone who knows [her] family will know [who it is] she is referring to claiming he was a leader/pastor of a sect.

These are lies:

 [Interviewee] has never lived in a closed religious community, she lived on a few acres of land in the township of [town] just north of Perth with her Mother.

 [The uncle] has never been a Pastor, let alone the Pastor of a cult like church. He is just a lovely old Christian gentleman.

 [The uncle] has never carried out an exorcism in his life.

 [Interviewee] has never been home schooled she attended a private co-educational school in the [town].

 [Interviewee] did not escape her mother to live with [her] grandmother for three years before going to university, she has never lived with [her] Gran....

The list goes on. [Interviewee] takes a small element of truth and grossly exaggerates and distorts the facts until it suits her story.

I seriously doubt the validity of any of [interviewee’s] ramblings. Her pathetic account of her time in New York as a Dominatrix was ridiculous. Anyone who types in DOMINATRIX on Google will get stories remarkably similar to [interviewee’s] account of "girl from strict religious background goes bad - now a Dominatrix with Wall St. Businessmen clientele!" […]

[Interviewee] is unfortunately a success driven fantasist who doesn't differentiate between fact or fiction but who will choose to lie to further her career […]

I guess I am disappointed with the ABC also, don't you do a background check on the guests you interview to check out the truth of their stories? Because ultimately the internet has made this planet a small place so people like [interviewee’s] mother or [the uncle] have effectively been irrevocably slandered.

The complainant submitted the following to the ABC on 15 January 2014:

28 I have received correspondence from [interviewee] who has advised, she contacted you about the podcast interview. "After I did the interview and the producer sent me the link, I was very upset. A whole lot of the stuff I said ... sounded like I was talking about [the uncle]. They also, in the text especially made a big deal about "my Uncle" starting the church, like he was a big part of it, he wasn't. The interview was originally 1 hour 26 minutes and they cut it down to the 57 minutes, a lot of my explanation about the church in the beginning was cut out. When I emailed the producer saying I wasn't sure about it; it sounded confusing as I wasn't using real names, she told me it wasn't going to air in WA anyway due to a daylight savings glitch. I forgot about it being on podcast and I expected no one to hear it.

I never said it was a closed community (that was added in the voice over by Richard Fidler at the beginning and in text - though of course I take the blame for this as obviously Fidler was under the wrong impression.) "

I am unsure of who is accountable. [Interviewee] has proven to be questionable in her accounts but she is pointing blame at your choice of editing and creating a false misinterpretation of the truth.

The complainant submitted the following to the ABC on 10 February 2014:

The material in this interview was grossly distorted and in fact inaccurate, involving defamatory statements concerning [the uncle]. Real names were not used as [interviewee] refers to "my uncle" throughout the early part of the interview, but anyone who knows [the] family will assume it is [the uncle] she is referring to.

I have included copies of my correspondence with [interviewee] who advises much of the inaccuracy of the programme was due to Senior Producer, [ABC staff name’s] editing of the interview, and Richard Fidler's insistence on sensationalizing [interviewee’s] church attendance as a child, into living in a "closed fundamentalist religious community".

I am unsure if [interviewee] has given false information as to "her uncle" [the uncle] being the leader of this "Closed religious Community", or if, as she is claiming, the Senior Producer/ and Richard Fidler have deliberately edited the interview to make for a more sensational story?

I have written to [ABC staff name] requesting an explanation on 15 January 2014. As yet I have not received a response.

I am grateful the original ABC interview has been deleted, but unfortunately this remains unsatisfactory, as the podcast has been downloaded onto other servers [...] and is still accessible to hear.

I am disappointed with the "Conversations team" for also not verifying [interviewee’s] accounts as factual truths. Because of this [the uncle] has irrevocably been slandered.

I would like the person responsible to be made accountable.

There is some doubt as to if the blame lies with [interviewee] for deliberately giving false information on a supposedly "real life accounts" programme or if in fact selective editing of this interview took place to grossly distort the truth? If this occurred then I am extremely disappointed with the ABC for the practise of misrepresenting the truth and the promotion of

hurtful lies about [the uncle]. He is being portrayed as a self appointed religious wacko running a cult like community. This is a lie.

The complainant submitted the following to the ABC on 17 March 2014:

When I initially wrote to the ABC with my complaint I was incensed at the injurious lies made concerning [the uncle], and failed to fully convey my other responses to this broadcast interview adequately. My immediate concern was for [the uncle’s] loss of reputation, but on reflection there are other concerns I wish to express which have distressed me.

The portrayal of bible believing Christians in [interviewee’s] childhood accounts as strange cult like followers who shun society, living in "closed religious communities" awaiting the rapture in self righteous elitism is incorrect and extremely unfair.

On listening to [interviewee] and Richard Fidler I was struck not only by the hurtful lies destroying [the uncle’s] reputation, but disturbingly ,the faith based bigotry that seemed to be the agenda of the interview.

Both Richard Fidler and [interviewee] seemed intent on mockery and ridicule, with Fidler stating his own personal opinions in this interview with derisive comments like: " ... there's something quite mean spirited about Christians attitude concerning the rapture ... like nah nah nah nah I told you so!" How sad that it is not considered prejudicial to denigrate a faith which has at its' heart a message of pure love and forgiveness for all mankind not just a select few.

The stories told by [interviewee] are gross distortions. Sensationalizing small elements of truth to misrepresent the facts. [Interviewee’s] recounts painted all the Christian people she grew up with in a very poor light. The practises of home schooling, exorcisms and living in a closed religious community are all lies .[Interviewee’s] mother knew nothing about her time in New York as a dominatrix, but in her interview she stated her mother found out about her work in a phone call while she was with a client.

I believe this programme is supposedly "real life Stories?"

The ABC has lost all credibility as a medium delivering an accurate truthful presentation. The interview with [interviewee] was not truthful it was a prejudicial rant by an aspiring writer with obvious issues intent on fame. Unfortunately it is at the cost of people's reputations for the sake of puerile rubbish presented as real life experiences.

The complainant submitted the following to the ACMA on 28 March

My complaint in general being the content of this interview was inaccurate, involving defamatory statements about [the uncle](the uncle who founded a cult like closed religious community, practising exorcisms and home schooling, according to [interviewee].) As you will see from the correspondence when confronted with a "please explain" letter, [interviewee] points the finger of blame at the editing and Fidlers' insertion of "closed" religious community in his text. By her own admission [the uncle] was not involved.

30 I have been advised the ABC insist they will re-post this currently deleted interview after it has been re - edited, removing any references to exorcisms, and the word "closed" in closed religious community. So [the uncle] will remain the uncle who started this wacky weird community.

The ABC is operating within limits to prevent possible litigation. Defending the use of "[interviewee’s] Uncle" as it does not use names.

Religious Community implies a cult like sect, when in fact the "church" at [town] was a collection of approximately 15 - 20 Christian families who gathered together every Sunday at the local town hall to fellowship together.

These Christians came from the outlying farming areas of [place], [place], [place], and [place].This is a small percentage of the entire population of these semi-rural areas. How does this become a religious community?

[Interviewee] takes a small element of truth then distorts it to insinuate something entirely different. From the response I have received I now understand, and I quote from [ABC staff name]’s letter: “The Audience and Consumer Affairs are not in a position to ascertain the factual accuracy or otherwise of [interviewee’s] account. However it is our view that listeners will understand that it is one person's recollections of their childhood and like all such recollections it is likely to be imperfect and that other people will remember the same events in a different way. As noted on the conversations web page, listeners are invited to “spend an hour" in someone else's life. It does not purport to present a chronology of factually accurate events, the audience expect an entertaining and very personal story and that's what they get."

So in other words, it's my word against [interviewee’s]? Because she is sticking to the “substance of her story" it is now acceptable?

Interestingly when I first viewed the "Conversations "web page before I wrote my letter of complaint to [ABC staff name] in December 2013, I was positive the web page stated "real life stories". I have no way of verifying this as the text seems different on the current "Conversations with Richard Fidler" web page.

However this web page for www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/conversations states: "Conversations features real people telling true stories. They might not be famous but they have seen and done amazing things."

This contradicts what [ABC staff name] audience and Consumer Affairs has just advised. The stories are supposed to be true, accurate. This is not the case in [interviewee’s] interview. […]

If facts are inaccurate it is viewed acceptable practise as it is only implied and listeners will understand this. I think not! Most listeners believe they are hearing a "real life account". I am now led to believe all the interviews are fictitious accounts? Not factually correct? All the guests of this programme can present misinformation, but it is reliant on audience discretion to decide if this is a truthful account?

On reading the ABC "Code of Practise", to my limited knowledge of legal issues, this programme seems to have breached many of these "standards" as outlined in this booklet.

Section 2: Accuracy

Standards:

2 : 1- Make reasonable efforts to ensure that material facts are accurate and presented in context.

2 : 2 - Do not present factual content in a way that will materially mislead the audience.

By [interviewee’s] own admission [the uncle] was not a big part of the Church, yet all references to him starting this "religious community" will remain in the re-edited interview. [The] family left [town] in 1983 when [interviewee] was 5 years old. [The uncle] did not start a Church, was neither a Pastor nor an exorcist, nor did he promote the practises of home schooling or discourage [interviewee] or her peers from formal education. So how has the accuracy of these facts not been breached?

Section 4: Impartiality and Diversity of Perspectives

Standards:

4: 3 - Do not state or imply that any perspective is the editorial opinion of the ABC. The ABC takes no editorial stance other than its 'commitment to fundamental democratic principles including the rule of law, freedom of speech and religion, Parliamentary democracy and equality of opportunity.

In the original interview [interviewee] and Richard Fidlers' conversation seemed intent on mockery and ridicule against bible believing Christians. I feel strongly that impartiality has been breached on the grounds that this conversation was not giving Christian belief fair treatment or received with open mindedness as outlined in the codes of practise booklet. As [interviewee] tells her story Richard Fidler states his own personal opinions about Christians' belief in the rapture.

"Aside from the dagginess of it all, I think there's something really mean spirited behind it all, behind the whole idea of the apocalyptic rapture, you know, you all laugh at us good Christians now, but there will come a day where we will be raised up to the bosom of Christ and you will suffer the awful torments of the end times and then you'll go to hell for the rest of your life and you'll see you were wrong ... and we were right! So it's a kind of great “ner ner nerner ner” moment really in a way, something quite mean spirited in that!"

The tone is purely derisive. How is this not considered a bigoted prejudicial rant by an impartial presenter?

4 - 5 Do not duly favour one perspective over another

At this point of the interview [interviewee] and the presenter Richard Fidler scoff and laugh at Christian belief.

Also Fidler is in absolute error if he believes born again Christians want to smugly scorn people who are left behind during the tribulation. The message of the bible is love, forgiveness for all mankind, no exceptions. His tirade was unfair and portrays Christians as "mean spirited toadies" who want to gloat in self righteous pride. This is totally wrong; nothing could be further from the truth.

Section 7. Harm and Offence.

Standards:

7 : 1- Content that is likely to cause harm or offence must be justified by the editorial content.

32 7 : 7 - Avoid the unjustified use of stereotypes or discriminatory content that could reasonably be interpreted as condoning or encouraging prejudice.

How does the whole scenario depicted by [interviewee]: living in a fundamentalist closed religious community, enduring forced exorcisms, no books, TV or radio permitted, wearing conservative clothing, home schooling and discouraging education, all under the authority of "[interviewee’s] Uncle", not breach standard 7 : 7 ?

How can I defend [the uncle] when the ABCs' position is "It does not purport to present a chronology of factually accurate events, the audience expect an entertaining and very personal story, and that's what they get.” Yet the original radio national programs "Conversations with Richard Fidler" text on the web page state “Conversations features real people telling true stories ... "

I respectfully request that the entire original interview be investigated as there appears to be differences now to the existing programme. All references to "closed" religious community have disappeared even on the other servers I had mentioned in my letter to the ABC [...] Are they connected to" Conversations"?

I am bewildered by the response from the Audience and Consumer Affairs. It appears they or [interviewee] are not accountable or have committed any wrong doing by re-editing and re- posting [interviewee’s] puerile ramblings. I feel it is morally wrong on so many levels:

To damage an innocent mans' reputation by insinuation

To denigrate a faith which seeks to offer love and hope to all not just a select few.

To dismiss and trivialize a complaint against an unfair, inaccurate portrayal of people who love Christ and his word the bible.

The complainant submitted the following to the ACMA on 30 March 2014

I wish to clarify the breaches to the ABC codes of practise which was the intent of my persistence in these letters of complaint. I am not seeking to pursue any legal action.

I believe the interview was discriminatory, prejudicial and the content inaccurate.

I wish to correct the inaccurate information [interviewee] has given out implying her interview a “true story" and express my offence caused by the ABC presenter Richard Fidler and [interviewee] in their unfair portrayal of bible believing Christians as pathetic, damaged, cold hearted and unloving. The offence caused by what I believe to be faith based bigotry when discussing her Christian upbringing was in breach of ABC code of practise:

Standards 7.7 - Avoid the unjustified use of stereotypes or discriminatory content that could reasonably be interpreted as condoning or encouraging prejudice.

Richard Fidler refers to the Christian people [interviewee] grew up associating with as “this apocalyptic form of human strangeness" then goes on to a derogatory rant about Christian belief in the rapture, which I quoted in my previous letter.

Again my intent in writing was never to pursue legal action, purely to “put right" the inaccurate unjustified portrayal of [the uncle] and all the Christian people [interviewee] grew up knowing.

They are not the hypocritical wacko's she would have everyone believe. The “church" provided money for [interviewee’s] mothers house when she was in need of 10 – 15 thousand dollars to have electricity connected. This church also held busy bees to have her house built.

Far from being isolated as [interviewee] describes her childhood, she attended the local public primary school with many the majority of children being from non-Christian homes.

Her mother worked at [employee] as a secretary.

After numerous parent/teacher meetings at the [school], [interviewee] attended for secondary school she did not continue after year 10. Her mother was greatly distressed at [interviewee’s] refusal to continue schooling when offered another school.

[Interviewee] was not discouraged to continue her education by “her uncle".

[Interviewee] had employment until choosing to do a bridging course at [school] public high school for years 11 and 12.

This is not as described by [interview] as an innocent child living in a “closed" religious community having little contact with the outside world, no TV, books, radio and enduring forced exorcisms etc.

To suddenly find herself in a world full of “fleshly sins" to explore. This is pure sensationalism.

The truth of [interviewee’s] life may be a little more ordinary not so “amazing".

What she wants to say about herself is her decision, but to wrongfully include [the uncle] in the stories of her life is reprehensible.

[...].

[The uncle] would see [interviewee] and her mother at family gatherings or if they popped in for a visit.

This is fact. That is the sum total of [the uncle’s] involvement in [interviewee’s] life not as she has depicted in her interview.

34 ATTACHMENT C

The ABC’s response to the complainant The ABC provided the following response to the complainant 8 January 2014:

I am so very sorry you were distressed by [interviewee’s] interview on 'Conversations'. [Interviewee] has also emailed me to let me know of the issues.

We have deleted [interviewee’s] interview from the website, as she requested.

The ABC provided the following response to the complainant 21 March 2014:

As your correspondence raised concerns of a lack of accuracy, your letter was referred to Audience and Consumer Affairs for consideration and response. The unit is separate and independent from ABC program areas and is responsible for investigating complaints alleging a broadcast or publication was in contravention of the ABC's editorial standards. In light of your concerns, we have reviewed the broadcast and assessed it against the ABC's editorial requirements for accuracy, as outlined in section 2 of the ABC's Code of Practice. In the interests of procedural fairness, we have also sought and considered material from ABC Radio.

The interview has been removed from the Conversations page while considering the complaint. The Conversations team advise that the complaint was not received until early January as the program was in recess over Summer. That the interview is available via other avenues is the nature of the internet, and unfortunately beyond our control.

[Interviewee] has indicated to the Conversations team that she stands by the substance of her interview. She has asked, however, for the reference to her living in a 'closed' community be edited out.

Radio also has decided that considering the seriousness of the allegation that forced exorcisms took place, to edit the interview to remove references to exorcisms.

In relation to other disputed elements of the story, Audience and Consumer Affairs is not in a position to ascertain the factual accuracy or otherwise of [interviewee’s] account. However, it is our view that listeners will understand that it is one person's recollection of their childhood and like all such recollections it is likely to be imperfect and that other people will remember the same events in a different way.

As noted on the Conversations web page, listeners are invited to "spend an hour in someone else's life". It does not purport to present a chronology of factually accurate events, the audience expect an entertaining and very personal story, and that's what they get.

[The uncle] is not mentioned by name and while some family members may associate him with some aspects of the story that was not intended by [interviewee] and would not be assumed by ordinary listeners.

In the view of Audience and Consumer Affairs, none of the disputed incidents are of a serious enough nature to warrant permanently removing the interview from the website. Accordingly, an edited version will be re-posted. We are satisfied that these actions adequately redress the complaint.

The ABC provided the following response to the complainant 7 April 2014:

Audience and Consumer Affairs was not in a position to determine the accuracy of much of [interviewee’s] story. While we accept that you dispute several aspects of [interviewee’s] story, it is her version of her life. As she does not make any allegations against any individuals, Audience and Consumers believes the interview should not be deleted from the archive in its entirety.

We do not agree that Mr Fidler was intent on ridiculing and denigrating a faith. [Interviewee] is entitled to express any view she wishes on her religious past.

36 ATTACHMENT D Some considerations to which the ACMA has regard in assessing whether or not particular content is factual content for the purposes of the code

 In practice, distinguishing between factual content and other content such as opinion, can be a matter of fine judgement.

 The ACMA will have regard to all contextual indications (including subject, language, tenor and tone and inferences that may be drawn) in making its assessment.

 The ACMA will first look to the natural and ordinary meaning of the language used.

 Factual content will usually be specific, unequivocal and capable of independent verification.

 The use of language such as ‘it seems to me’ or ‘we consider/think/believe’ will tend to indicate that the content is contestable and presented as an expression of opinion or personal judgement. However, a common sense judgement is required and the form of words introducing the relevant content is not conclusive.

 Statements in the nature of predictions as to future events will rarely be characterised as factual material.

 Statements containing hyperbole will rarely be characterised as factual content.

 The identity of the person making a statement (whether as interviewer or interviewee) will often be relevant but not determinative of whether a statement is factual content.

ACMA Investigation Report 3204 – Conversations with Richard Fidler broadcast by 6WF on 15 October 2013 37