1 2 Military Police Complaints Commission 3 4 5 FYNES PUBLIC INTEREST HEARINGS 6 held pursuant to section 250.38(1) of the National Defence 7 Act, in the matter of file 2011-004 8 9 LES AUDIENCES D'INTÉRÊT PUBLIQUE SUR FYNES 10 tenues en vertu du paragraphe 250.38(1) de la Loi sur la 11 défense nationale pour le dossier 2011-004 12 13 14 15 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS 16 held at 270 Albert St., Ottawa, Ontario 17 on Tuesday, May 8, 2012 18 mardi, le 8 mai 2012 19 20 21 VOLUME 18 22 23BEFORE: 24 25Mr. Glenn Stannard Chairperson 26 27Ms Raymonde Cléroux Registrar 28Ms Hanan Rahal 29 30 31APPEARANCES: 32 33Mr. Mark Freiman Commission counsel 34Ms Dana Cernacek 35 36 37Ms Elizabeth Richards For Sgt Jon Bigelow, MWO Ross Tourout, 38Ms Korinda McLaine LCol Gilles Sansterre, WO Blair Hart, PO 2 Eric McLaughlin, 39 Sgt David Mitchell, Sgt Matthew Alan Ritco, Maj Daniel Dandurand, 40 Sgt Scott Shannon, LCol Brian Frei, LCol (ret’d) William H. Garrick 41 WO (ret’d) Sean Der Bonneteau, CWO (ret’d) Barry Watson 42 43Col (ret’d) Michel W. Drapeau For Mr. Shaun Fynes 44Mr. Joshua Juneau and Mrs. Sheila Fynes 45 46 47 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. © 2012 48 49 200 Elgin Street, Suite 1105 333 Bay Street, Suite 50 900 51 Ottawa, Ontario K2P 1L5 Toronto, Ontario 52 M5H 2T4 1 (613) 564-2727 (416) 861- 2 8720 3 1 2 3 (ii) 4 5 6 INDEX 7 8 9 PAGE 10 11AFFIRMED: MAJOR STEWART PARKINSON 5 12 13Examination-in-chief by Mr. Freiman 5 14Cross-examination by Col Drapeau 99 15Cross-examination by Ms Richards 115 16Further Cross-examination by Col Drapeau 126 17 18 19 20SWORN: CAPTAIN ADAM BROWN 128 21 22Examination-in-chief by Mr. Freiman 128 23Cross-examination by Col Drapeau 190 24Cross-examination by Ms Richards 202 1 2 3 (iii) 4 5 6 7 LIST OF EXHIBITS 8 9 10NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE 11 12 13P-61 Document Index, Major S. Parkinson 1 14 15P-62 Document Index, Captain A. Brown 1 16 17 18 19 1 1 2 3 4 5 1 Ottawa, Ontario 2--- Upon resuming on Tuesday, May 8, 2012 3 at 9:54 a.m. 4 MS CERNACEK: Good morning. We 5will start putting into exhibits the two document 6indexes for the two witnesses today, Major 7Parkinson and Captain Brown. 8 THE REGISTRAR: Major Parkinson 9will be P-61 and Captain Brown will be P-62. 10 EXHIBIT NO. P-61: Document 11 Index, Major S. Parkinson 12 EXHIBIT NO. P-62: Document 13 Index, Captain A. Brown 14 MS RICHARDS: I just have one 15housekeeping matter. 16 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 17 MS RICHARDS: At the end of the 18day yesterday I had referred to a document and I 19said I would provide the parties a copy of it. I 20read into the record the reference and so I have 21handed up. It’s document 1294. It’s from 22Collection F, Volume 2. I have just circulated a 23copy. I don’t know if we need to make it an 24exhibit or not, but I have provided a copy to the 25parties and to you, Mr. Chair.
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 2 2 3 4 5 1 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 2 Colonel Drapeau? 3 COL (RET’D) DRAPEAU: Mr. Chair, I 4would like to introduce as an exhibit an answer to 5the question or to the testimony made by Mrs. Fynes 6yesterday that the NIS report 2008 6544 released to 7her in two separate versions, one version being 714 8pages and the other one 578 pages, and the 9numerical sequence of the information being 10presented in the report itself has also shifted. 11She made the point that perhaps the NIS was 12operating or working off two separate books. So I 13would like to introduce that and give you four or 14five examples of where that happens. It comes 15across as just being two separate reports and, as I 16said, both the -- 17 THE CHAIRPERSON: Until I hear 18more, I wouldn’t draw any conclusions. 19 COL (RET’D) DRAPEAU: Of course 20not. We are not suggesting anything nefarious. 21It’s just that what is shown in one edition at page 22195 is shown in the second edition at page 110, 23what is shown on page 160 in one edition is shown 24at page 77 in the second one. I could go on. It’s 25the sequencing itself and just what is being shown.
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 3 2 3 4 5 1 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. I am sure 2there will be more to follow on that. 3 COL (RET’D) DRAPEAU: Yes. 4 MS RICHARDS: Are both of these in 5evidence? 6 COL (RET’D) DRAPEAU: I am just 7introducing it now. 8 MS RICHARDS: Sorry, are both of 9the versions of the GO reports in evidence? 10 COL (RET’D) DRAPEAU: I believe 11so, but I stand to be corrected. 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: We would have to 13ask the Registrar. I don’t know how many versions 14of -- we only have one version of the GO report, I 15would imagine. 16 MS RICHARDS: There are many. 17 COL (RET’D) DRAPEAU: There are 18many. 19 MS RICHARDS: They haven’t all 20been filed in evidence. 21 THE CHAIRPERSON: Before we mark 22it as an exhibit, we will ask the Registrar to look 23at it and maybe tomorrow morning we will have an 24answer. 25 MS RICHARDS: Thank you.
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 4 2 3 4 5 1 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yesterday, Ms 2Richards, we talked about the tape and I believe 3you were going to check with counsel. 4 MS RICHARDS: Oh, sorry. 5 THE CHAIRPERSON: I don’t need an 6answer on it. Just if you keep it in mind. 7 MS RICHARDS: Yes. Thank you. I 8would say one of the things that certainly came out 9in evidence is that the Fynes also have copies of 10the tapes, so I would anticipate that their copies 11would be filed with the Commission and I will go 12back and get instructions to see if there is any 13issue with us filing copies as well. 14 COL (RET’D) DRAPEAU: We are 15working on this right now. 16 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. I believe 17Colonel Drapeau is going to speak to it. So, in 18the next week because we have to make decisions on 19examinations of tapes and things like that, which 20ones are video, which ones are audio, and are we 21talking the same thing. Mrs. Fynes wasn’t really 22clear yesterday, so we will sort through that. 23 MS RICHARDS: I will have an 24answer by tomorrow morning. 25 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 5 2 3 4 5 1 Mr. Freiman? 2 MR. FREIMAN: Our next witness is 3Major Parkinson. 4AFFIRMED: MAJOR STEWART PARKINSON 5 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, 6Major. Welcome. 7 THE WITNESS: Good morning, sir. 8 THE CHAIRPERSON: Just a side 9note: You’ve been the best dressed officer that’s 10come in here to date. 11 THE WITNESS: It comes as no 12surprise, sir. 13 THE CHAIRPERSON: Maybe I’ll wear 14my kilt next week. If I knew you were coming, I 15would have done that. 16 You shouldn’t laugh at that, Mr. 17Freiman. I have very nice legs too. 18 MR. FREIMAN: My mother told me to 19beware of certain topics. 20EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. FREIMAN: 21 Q. Major Parkinson, good 22morning. 23 A. Good morning. 24 Q. I wonder if we could start by 25asking you to fill us in on your career with the
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 6 2 3 4 5 1Canadian Forces. 2 A. Okay. At this stage it’s 3working toward its 43rd year, 44th if you include 4cadets. I started with cadets when I was 15. I 5stayed with them until my 19th birthday. I joined 6the reserves when I was 16 and I stayed with them 7until 19 1/2 with the Royal Westminster Regiment, 8and then I joined the regular forces and served 30 9years with them. 10 I was an infantryman initially, 11and I served in London. I went to London after my 12basic training. From there, I went to Cyprus with 131 RCR. I went from there to Germany, posted to 14Germany. I spent four years there with 3 Mech 15Commando, and then they converted to 3rd Battalion, 16Royal Canadian Regiment. 17 From there I remustered and became 18a supply tech and I went back to 3 PPCLI to 19accommodate that and became a supply tech. I 20served about nine months there. 21 I applied for my commission, was 22accepted. I went to Chilliwack for my basic 23officer training. From there, I went to Gagetown, 24completed nine months’ worth of officer training. 25 I was posted back to Germany with
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 7 2 3 4 5 13rd Battalion, Royal Canadian Regiment. I served 2two years there. I became the deployment officer 3and helped move the battalion back to Winnipeg. I 4served another two years in Winnipeg. 5 I was then posted to Gagetown, the 6infantry school. I was a course officer there for 7a number of different courses. 8 In 1989 I went to Iraq for 13 9months. Once I came back from there, I was posted 10back to Germany for my third time. I stayed there 11until 1992 and then moved to Kamloops as regular 12support officer to the Rocky Mountain Rangers. 13 From there I was posted to Toronto 14as regular support officer with the Toronto 15Scottish Regiment. From there I took my release 16and moved out to Sooke, British Columbia, and 17joined the Canadian Scottish Regiment where I have 18served since 2002 to present. 19 Q. Thank you. That’s a very 20full career and some amazing experiences. 21 Major Parkinson, I understand that 22at some point in 2008 you were contacted with the 23information that you were to be appointed as an 24assisting officer to Mr. and Mrs. Fynes. 25 A. That’s correct.
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 8 2 3 4 5 1 Q. Just before we talk about 2that call, what was your understanding at the time 3of the duties of an assisting officer? 4 A. As laid out, I had had the 5assisting officer’s course the previous February in 6Shilo. It’s a week-long course that runs you 7through the duties of an assisting officer. 8 Q. Yes. 9 A. Basically they pass you the 10handbook, you go through the handbook describing 11what is entailed in the duties. 12 Q. Yes. 13 A. Basically it was the 14practical application of those lessons that came 15into play when I was the assisting officer. 16 Q. I understand you had taken 17the course. We have already seen a number of 18documents and we will look at some of them with you 19today where different people seem to have different 20ideas as to what an assisting officer should do and 21what an assisting officer should be engaged with 22and what an assisting officer should not be engaged 23with. 24 The reason for my question was 25just to start us on the conversation as to what
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 9 2 3 4 5 1your understanding of the role was and how you 2approached the role that you were given to assist 3Mr. and Mrs. Fynes? 4 A. Fair enough. I considered I 5would be working for the CO of Lord Strathcona’s 6Horse as the assisting officer. I was there to 7provide assistance to the Fynes in matters 8pertaining to any questions that they had and to 9act as a conduit back to Lord Strathcona’s Horse 10through the Adjutant Captain Lubiniecki. 11 Q. If I understand correctly, 12your view was that you were reporting to the chain 13of command for Lord Strathcona through the Adjutant 14Major Lubiniecki. 15 A. He was a captain at the time, 16but that’s correct. 17 Q. The other issue I wanted to 18start thinking about with you early on -- and I can 19show you the extract from the AO’s handbook, but I 20don’t think it’s at all controversial. One of the 21qualities that is mentioned to the chain of command 22when selecting an assisting officer is that the 23assisting officer must possess sound judgment, must 24be proactive, must have integrity beyond question, 25but then it also says must be articulate and
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 10 2 3 4 5 1capable of asking difficult questions and must 2remain loyal to the wishes of the next of kin. 3 Were those issues that you thought 4were of any importance in the way you fulfilled 5your duties as assisting officer? 6 A. There are certain character 7traits that would be admirable in an assisting 8officer. They’re certainly not all encompassing, I 9don’t think, but I thought I met them. 10 Q. We have had the benefit of 11your meticulous record-keeping of the details of 12your various interactions, so I think I am going to 13take advantage of your record-keeping to review 14with you, with the assistance of your notes, the 15various briefings that you got the first week that 16you were brought into this matter. 17 I would like to ask you to turn to 18tab 71 in the book in front of you. This is one of 19a number of memoranda that you kept, sometimes of 20the same events. 21 We can see from your notes that on 22the 15th of March you were told to stand by for an 23assignment as assisting officer. That was 24confirmed an hour later. By the next day you 25record you were briefed by the commanding officer
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 11 2 3 4 5 1in Nanaimo. 2 I am going to ask us to look with 3you at some of the matters that you were told, but 4I am also interested to know where you got the 5various bits of information or, if you got them all 6from the commanding officer, whether he informed 7you what the source of some of this information 8was? 9 Let me start us off with point 3 10sub (b). You start by reciting the facts about 11Corporal Langridge, his membership in Lord 12Strathcona’s Horse, his age, when he started his 13career, his tours, and then we proceed: 14 AHe had a drug and alcohol 15 problem and checked out of 16 rehab in Nanaimo after a 17 week.” 18 Do you remember if this was 19something you got from the chain of command or 20whether you got this from Mr. and Mrs. Fynes 21subsequently? 22 A. No. This is what I got from 23my CO at the time, Lieutenant Colonel Stedeford. 24He provided me this information. 25 Q. We will see that the
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 12 2 3 4 5 1commanding officer had a number of additional facts 2that he provided to you and they included that 3Corporal Langridge had separated from his common 4law spouse Rebecca the previous week, the fact that 5Mrs. Fynes’ birthday was on the 14th of March, and 6when Corporal Langridge called Mrs. Fynes he 7sounded despondent, and that according to the 8information provided by Mrs. Fynes to your 9informant, Corporal Langridge was thrown out of the 10hospital two weeks ago, he needed medical help. 11She knew that the unit had tried to help. 12 Then there is some more family 13details. The mother pointed out he was a soldier 14through and through and wishes him to be remembered 15for his positive service, over 16 years in cadets 16and reserves and as a trooper. The primary next of 17kin is Shaun Fynes, the secondary next of kin is 18Sheila Fynes. 19 Do you have any information as to 20whether your commanding officer got that 21information? 22 A. That came off a -- I can’t 23give you 100 per cent on that, but I am almost 24positive it came from his emergency notification. 25 Q. What we have been calling in
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 13 2 3 4 5 1these proceedings the PEN form. 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. I am not going to go into the 4same detail through the rest of your notes. I note 5that on the second page of this memorandum, page 6208 of 1434, we have a record of your first meeting 7with Mr. and Mrs. Fynes. 8 Can you, independently of this 9record or maybe using it to refresh your memory, 10tell us the tenor of your first meeting with Mr. 11and Mrs. Fynes? What was your impression of what 12their state of mind was, what they were looking for 13and what assistance you were going to be asked to 14give? 15 A. They were distraught, as I 16think is a fairly reasonable expectation of people 17in that position. They talked a great deal about 18their grief and the situation as it was affecting 19them. 20 My job as an assisting officer at 21that stage was to glean any facts that were coming 22that were going to be useful to me in my job, from 23which those are the notes that I have taken. 24 I asked a few questions just to 25help us get us all on the road.
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 14 2 3 4 5 1 Q. By 1300 hours of the 17th of 2March, if you look at point number 7, there were a 3number of different requests and different choices 4and preferences that were expressed. I don’t think 5we have to go through them, we have seen similar 6lists over the last couple of days. I just want to 7get the timing correct. 8 Am I correct in understanding that 9at the point that Mr. and Mrs. Fynes were 10discussing these preferences with you, it was your 11understanding and it was their understanding that 12they were the primary and secondary next of kin and 13that therefore these preferences were theirs? In 14essence, they were in charge of making decisions 15about the funeral. Or am I wrong about that? 16 A. I am not 100 per cent at this 17stage of the game. I know it came fairly quickly 18that they were not the primary next of kin. The 19exact date and time of that is -- 20 Q. I think I can probably help 21you with that. Page 209, two hours and 15 minutes 22after the 1300 note. 23 A. Yes, that’s correct. There 24it is. Yes, at 1300. Those timings would be 25specifically based on the fact that the Fynes
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 15 2 3 4 5 1thought they were the primary next of kin. 2 Q. Can you tell us your 3recollection of the -- first of all, let’s talk 4about the phone call you received from the Adjutant 5Captain Lubiniecki as he then was. You say you 6briefed him on the points from paragraph 7. He 7asked whether a certain friend of Corporal 8Langridge would be welcome at the funeral and 9informed you of the decision that Rebecca was next 10of kin. 11 Can you take us back and maybe 12specify or fill in the blanks as to what that 13conversation sounded like? 14 A. Probably a little bit of 15incredulity on my part because I couldn’t 16understand why that would be, and I questioned 17Captain Lubiniecki on that. 18 Q. Did he give you an 19explanation of the source of that decision? 20 A. He said the source came after 21discussion through the AJAG. 22 Q. Did he give you any other 23explanation other than to say that there had been 24consultations with the local Judge Adjutant 25General?
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 16 2 3 4 5 1 A. No. 2 Q. So you have a question from 3him about Corporal Hillier and you have his news to 4you that the primary next of kin had been decided 5to be Ms Hamilton-Tree. Can you take us through 6your discussion with Mr. and Mrs. Fynes that must 7have ensued? 8 A. Yes. I think I went back and 9saw them, if I am not mistaken, because that was 10not the sort of news I wanted to drop on them over 11a phone call. 12 Q. Yes. 13 A. So I would have gone back to 14them and discussed that with them. It wasn’t a 15pleasant discussion. 16 Q. Tell us what you remember of 17the discussion. What do you recall was the 18attitude by Mr. and Mrs. Fynes? 19 A. They were sort of crushed 20like a grape. 21 Q. Yes. 22 A. A little bit devastated by 23that news. 24 Q. Yes. Did you discuss any of 25the practical implications of the fact that they
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 17 2 3 4 5 1were no longer being recognized as primary next of 2kin? 3 A. I did. 4 Q. Tell us what that discussion 5sounded like. 6 A. It was more question and 7answer in a lot of cases. They would be 8questioning: Does that mean she has the right to 9sort out the funeral? I would say yes, or I would 10point that out. It would be going along those 11lines, that Rebecca would be getting the flag at 12the service, not Sheila Fynes. 13 Q. By 1640 hours you were 14already on the phone with Adam. This is page 210. 15We understand Adam to be Second Lieutenant Adam 16Brown who was the assisting officer for Ms 17Hamilton-Tree. 18 There is a list of requests that 19Adam conveys to you from Rebecca. We can see that 20on point 11 by 1730, which is an hour after your 21discussion with Adam, you were already speaking 22with Mrs. Fynes. You passed on the information 23from Rebecca’s AO. You inform Mrs. Fynes that 24there was not likely to be an autopsy. 25 Then you record:
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 18 2 3 4 5 1 AShe was okay with all points 2 and compromises and wished to 3 pass on her thanks to 4 Rebecca.” (As read) 5 Can you take us back to that 6conversation, what you remember? 7 A. Yes, I would have discussed 8those points from para 10. 9 Q. Yes. 10 A. There was, at that stage of 11the game, a little bit of an acceptance by Shaun 12and Sheila that something was happening outside 13their control. 14 Q. My impression from this -- 15and I would just like your view of it -- is that at 16least at this point there didn’t seem to be a great 17deal of friction about arrangements for the 18funeral. 19 A. No, it was going relatively 20amiable at that stage. 21 Q. I am not going to take you in 22the same detail through the next day, but there are 23a couple of matters I would like to discuss with 24you. 25 If you look at the 18 March 2008
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 19 2 3 4 5 1entry and turn to page 211, at point 4 we record a 2visit at 1500 hours with the family and you set out 3what you discussed. The first is simply 4accommodation for the funeral. Second is the 5practical issue of van rental. 6 I would like to talk about (c) and 7(d). You note: 8 AThey want to know who is the 9 estate executor.” (As read) 10 Do you remember what that was all 11about, what that conversation is in reference to? 12 A. Yes, the will. 13 Q. If I understand correctly, 14this is their request to find out where is the 15will, what is in the will, who is the executor of 16the will. 17 A. At least they were wondering 18who the executor was. 19 Q. I want to check whether you 20make a note, but my assumption is that these are 21matters that you would then take up via Captain 22Lubiniecki, as he then was, to try to pursue. 23 A. Yes. In fact, I passed this 24in an e-mail form back to him. 25 Q. So we know that by the 18th
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 20 2 3 4 5 1of March 2008 there is a live issue put on the 2table by Mr. and Mrs. Fynes of the identity of the 3executor. We also know that by this time, point 4(d), you note they were wondering if Rebecca and 5Stuart’s separation papers were located. 6 Did Mr. and Mrs. Fynes fill you in 7on the background of this request or of this 8question? 9 A. Where the question came from, 10yes. They stated that -- or Sheila had stated that 11Stuart and Rebecca had gone their separate ways and 12were no longer living together. 13 Q. This was, if I understand 14correctly, independent of the briefing that we saw 15noted at the beginning of this document that came 16through your CO to the effect that Stuart and 17Rebecca had separated the previous week. 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. There is a few other 20logistical issues dealing with the funeral and the 21timing, the headstone, their desire for a reception 22but they can’t afford it. Let’s look at point (o): 23 AThey would like to see a 24 copy of Stuart’s personal 25 effects. They were concerned
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 21 2 3 4 5 1 about others taking his stuff 2 without them having a chance 3 to look it over. I explained 4 the effects will be secured 5 until at least the conclusion 6 of a committee of adjustment 7 and maybe the BOI. They 8 expressed the desire for his 9 sunglasses and watch to give 10 to his brother Mike. In 11 addition to previous items, 12 they would like the Samurai 13 print that goes with the 14 sword and the flat rock from 15 Afghanistan.” (As read) 16 All of these maters, as you are 17aware, would become serious issues in the weeks and 18months that followed, so let’s get an introduction 19to these issues. 20 What was the nature of the various 21concerns being expressed by Mr. and Mrs. Fynes? 22 A. Just that their son’s effects 23would be secured and properly inventoried. 24 Q. If I understand correctly, 25this would have been a concern by the Fynes that
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 22 2 3 4 5 1would be known to the chain of command from the day 2that you reported it on the 19th. 3 A. Correct. From this date -- 4from 18 March because this would be my e-mail to 5Captain Lubiniecki on that particular day. 6 Q. This is the mention that we 7see of the sunglasses and watch. We know that at 8the funeral Major Jared in fact took the Fynes 9aside and secured the sunglasses and I think maybe 10the watch as well for Mrs. Fynes to give to 11Stuart’s younger brother. 12 A. I don’t have a total 13recollection on it, but it seems familiar. 14 Q. That’s fine. Let’s go over 15the next page. There’s a couple more issues that 16we will see in the course of this morning, and this 17is the first sign of them. 18 If you look at point 5, 2020 19hours, it’s another discussion with Rebecca’s AO. 20The first two are self-explanatory. Point (c): 21 APermission for Rebecca to 22 view pictures on computer and 23 data disks for collage while 24 under supervision and to 25 return items after viewing.”
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 23 2 3 4 5 1 (As read) 2 What was this issue, to your 3recollection? 4 A. They were pictures of Rebecca 5and Stuart having intimate relationships and they 6were on -- they were taped, and Rebecca didn’t want 7those going to the parents. 8 Q. Okay. I think this is 9actually a different issue, but it’s a related 10issue. This looks like permission is being given 11to look at pictures for a collage that was to be 12assembled but that it would be under supervision 13and everything had to be returned. 14 A. That was what I told the 15parents. 16 Q. I see. 17 A. And it wasn’t untrue. It’s 18just that I didn’t add the other detail. 19 Q. I see. Paragraph 6 tells us 20that by 2050 hours you had phoned Shaun. You 21passed to him the gist of the conversation with 22Second Lieutenant Brown. Again, it appears that at 23this point there is satisfaction: 24 AHe seemed very happy, no 25 problems with Rebecca viewing
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 24 2 3 4 5 1 pictures and to emphasize how 2 very welcome she would be to 3 view his effects together.” 4 (As read) 5 Then there is seating for Corporal 6Langridge’s younger brother. 7 At this point am I correct that 8matters are pretty amicable? 9 A. As much as they could be in 10the situation, yes. 11 Q. Exactly. At some point 12shortly thereafter, I believe, you had a number of 13telephone calls with Captain Lubiniecki and other 14members of the chain of command to brief you. 15 Can you tell us your recollection 16of those telephone conversations and what the 17topics were? I believe these would have been in or 18around the 16th of March. 19 A. The 16th of March? 20 Q. Yes. I don’t see them in 21those notes. 22 A. No. Let me check. The 16th 23of March at 1910 I called the CO and the Adjutant 24of LdSH and briefed them on the day’s activities. 25 Q. I understand that you got a
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 25 2 3 4 5 1briefing as well from each of these gentlemen, or 2at least some of these gentlemen, about some of the 3background. Do you recall the nature of that 4telephone conversation? 5 A. That would have been -- 6probably where you are going with this is that 7would have been the time I was referred to the 8suicide watch. 9 Q. That is the issue I wanted 10you to address. Tell me what was said in any one 11or all of those conversations on the topic of the 12suicide watch. 13 A. Both the CO and the Adjutant 14at the time, Captain Lubiniecki, mentioned they 15tried everything that they could, that their hands 16were bound by the situation of Stuart’s being 17released and that they had placed Stuart on a 18suicide watch. 19 Q. I would like you to expand a 20little. What did you understand by the concept 21that their hands were bound by Stuart’s release? 22 A. We have to go back into the 23past. In the old days a person got one chance at 24suicide, that was it, and then the military 25interfered with your freedom of rights. Okay?
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 26 2 3 4 5 1They’d have you locked up and they would make sure 2you were assigned to a mental facility to receive 3treatment to prevent future incidents of this 4nature. 5 Once the Bill of Rights came into 6position, it seems there is no longer an ability to 7do that. In Stuart’s case he had multiple attempts 8and suicide and he was still walking the streets 9without treatment. We can say he refused treatment 10because that’s his right and all the rest of that, 11but the fact is, he was suicidal and he wasn’t 12getting treatment. 13 The only ones that I know of in 14the military or have ever known who have had any 15way or shape of dealing with that are Military 16Police by the means of locking a person in a cell 17and taking away his shoelaces, or assigning them to 18a mental facility or a psychiatric hospital or a 19medical facility of some sort. 20 I have never heard of anything 21called a suicide watch. That’s why I remember the 22term so clearly. It’s not something -- I realized 23what they were doing. They were trying to do the 24best they could in a situation that was untenable 25for them.
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 27 2 3 4 5 1 Q. What was your impression of 2what the suicide watch would look like? What was 3happening with Stuart and who was doing what in 4relation to him? 5 A. He was assigned a specific 6place to sleep where he could be watched. 7 Q. Yes. 8 A. And his movement was being 9monitored. 10 Q. Right. 11 A. I was under the impression 12that he was let go from that watch to go back to 13his room and then two hours later they found him. 14 Q. Did this impression come from 15your own deductions or was it something that 16Captain Lubiniecki and/or the commanding officer 17would have told you? 18 A. That came from both the CO 19and from Captain Lubiniecki. 20 Q. Let me move forward in time. 21We might as well cover off this point. Was there 22any change that you perceived in the way that these 23conditions were described subsequently? 24 A. Yes. By the time I went out 25to the funeral, both the CO and -- the CO, Captain
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 28 2 3 4 5 1Lubiniecki and Major Jared denied that there was 2ever an existence of anything called a suicide 3watch. 4 Q. Did this strike you as at all 5significant? 6 A. Yes, because that obviously 7meant I was retarded. 8 Q. Aside from that diagnosis, 9did you form any conclusions as to the reason for 10the change in attitude? 11 A. I suspect they had received 12legal advice. That was my assumption. 13 Q. I want to deal in a couple of 14minutes with a few other issues at the funeral, but 15since we are already there in our discussion, do 16you recall having any conversations with either 17Major Jared or Captain Lubiniecki at the funeral 18about how things were going with the Fynes? 19 A. Yes. I certainly remember 20discussing with Major Jared in the mess the 21situation and the problems that they had had with 22individuals that were friends of Rebecca doing the 23inventory -- 24 Q. Yes. 25 A. Discussion about the suicide
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 29 2 3 4 5 1watch or its non-existence. 2 Q. Yes. 3 A. I remember discussing with 4Major Jared the status of Rebecca. 5 Q. Yes. 6 A. And also the status of 7Rebecca in regards to Captain Lubiniecki. 8 Q. Just talking about your 9conversations with Captain Lubiniecki, do you 10recall any conversations that you had about the 11experiences that either he or Stuart would have had 12in Afghanistan, especially Stuart’s experiences in 13Afghanistan? 14 A. We discussed some. I knew he 15was a member of a reconnaissance detachment. 16 Q. Yes. 17 A. In one of these special 18reconnaissance vehicles. 19 Q. Yes. 20 A. Based on the fact that I know 21their capabilities, I know how they are employed 22and all the rest of it, I made a personal 23assumption that Stuart Langridge was a member of a 24crew that put an awful lot of Taliban into the 25dirt.
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 30 2 3 4 5 1 Q. Did you discuss that with 2Captain Lubiniecki or was it simply your own 3conclusion and deduction? 4 A. That might just be my own 5conclusion. 6 Q. Aside from that conversation, 7did anyone else ever talk to you about any 8traumatic experiences that might have occurred to 9Stuart while he was in Afghanistan? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Let’s look at tab 70. I 12would like to go back to some of the issues we 13began to explore from your early notes. I am not 14certain, but I think -- would this have been yours 15or would this have been a document that was 16provided to you? 17 A. A bit of both. As I got 18information, I wrote it down and I received from 19the military contact information. I certainly 20would have expanded on that as the day went along 21and put it all here so I had a concise list of who 22to contact. 23 Q. Do you remember when you 24started to put this list together? 25 A. Immediately.
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 31 2 3 4 5 1 Q. I notice by the end we have 2-- you are going all the way into April looking at 3various issues. I want to start right at the 4beginning with the first page under AMemorial 5Cross”: 6 AMember did not complete a 7 Memorial Cross DND 2105 8 designation. ...regardless 9 as he was not killed directly 10 in military service, no 11 Memorial Crosses would have 12 been presented even with a 13 completed DND 2105.” (As 14 read) 15 I would like you to think back and 16tell me if you can put some context into that 17information, where it came from and on what basis. 18 A. That was based on a 19conversation with Captain Lubiniecki. 20 Q. Let’s move further. Primary 21next of kin, you now have Rebecca Hamilton-Tree 22noted. Then the personal information form details 23as to both the funeral and the interment. That 24takes us through 201, 202. Estate details, we have 25the request by each of the individuals. We know by
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 32 2 3 4 5 1now that the primary beneficiary of the will is the 2mother and the executor is David White. 3 Do you remember the chain of 4events that led to that determination or was it 5pretty run-of-the-mill? 6 A. No, anything but, actually. 7The executor was determined to be David White, but 8David White was living in Hawaii, I believe, at the 9time. They had trouble contacting him. They had 10to get a hold of David’s parents in order to get in 11contact with him to even let him know that Stuart 12was deceased and that he was the executor of the 13will. It was certainly their desire that somebody 14else be the executor. Initially that was David’s 15request or his desire also. He didn’t want to be 16the executor. 17 Q. We will see a couple of 18documents in a few minutes that trace that chain of 19events. 20 On page 204 as well, looking at 21the top of the page, this is preceded by discussion 22about Corporal Hillier. You recite that the family 23believes Corporal Hillier is to blame for some of 24Stuart’s problems, but they have agreed to allow 25him to attend the funeral but do not want any
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 33 2 3 4 5 1contact with Corporal Hillier. 2 I want to ask you on this point, 3by this point we have seen from this document 4itself the belief is that the primary next of kin 5for purposes of planning the funeral is Rebecca 6Hamilton-Tree. 7 A. Correct. 8 Q. But we have the family 9agreeing to certain things and putting certain 10conditions on other things. Can you describe where 11that dynamic came from? 12 A. That came from the fact that 13they no longer had control over the funeral 14proceedings. 15 Q. Do I understand correctly, 16then, that this is sort of a negotiation that you 17are carrying on? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. Because it’s not clear from 20the notes whether the family was in a position to 21simply say so-and-so can come and so-and-so can’t 22come, or whether that was a negotiation. 23 A. Initially, before they knew, 24it was a statement. They didn’t want him there. 25Once Rebecca had control, then that changed.
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 34 2 3 4 5 1 Q. Finally, for this document 2you recite ACommon law status”: 3 AThe family believes that 4 Corporal Langridge and 5 Rebecca were separated and he 6 was going to cancel his 7 common law status. However, 8 no paperwork was ever 9 generated on this issue. 10 Rebecca remains as common law 11 spouse.” (As read) 12 I would like to ask you about -- 13the first sentence we have already seen, they 14believe that they were separated and that he was 15going to cancel the status, but you go on to say: 16 AHowever, no paperwork was 17 ever generated on this 18 issue.” 19 A. That’s information that I am 20receiving from the unit. 21 Q. Was that Mr. and Mrs. Fynes’ 22view as well at this point? 23 A. That...? 24 Q. That there was no paperwork 25on the issue.
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 35 2 3 4 5 1 A. No. 2 Q. What was their view? 3 A. If I remember correctly, they 4thought that Stuart had initiated some paperwork. 5 Q. Let’s proceed in our 6discussions to the funeral itself. We have already 7talked a little bit about the funeral, your 8discussions with Major Jared, your discussions with 9Captain Lubiniecki. Tell me if you noticed 10anything else that was notable or important for you 11from the point of view of your role as AO during 12the course of the funeral. 13 A. I suspect the major one that 14still sits in my mind is when Sheila came up to me 15and told me what her sister had overheard in the 16washroom about Rebecca discussing with her 17girlfriends where they were going partying that 18night. That came as a rather devastating blow to 19Sheila, needless to say. 20 Q. I am more concerned about the 21who-told-whom-what than the actual content for a 22moment. Do I understand, then, that from your 23point of view, the report that was being made to 24you was a report by Sheila of something that her 25sister had told her that the sister had heard?
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 36 2 3 4 5 1 A. Correct. 2 Q. Obviously if it was a 3conversation in the women’s washroom, you would not 4have been present at the time. 5 A. Also correct. 6 Q. The content was something 7along the lines that there were plans being made 8for partying that night. 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. Did you notice any change in 11the attitude expressed to you by the Fynes with 12respect to Ms Hamilton-Tree after this event? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Tell me about that. 15 A. That would be a very much 16more negative impression. 17 Q. Yes. 18 A. They weren’t completely happy 19about the situation to begin with based on the fact 20that Rebecca had control over that, but that relay 21of information from Sheila’s sister to her, that 22put the axe in the back of the forehead as far as 23that relationship went. 24 Q. Did that cause practical 25problems with respect to the rest of the funeral or
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 37 2 3 4 5 1with respect to the interment? 2 A. I would have to say no 3because by that stage -- that was at the reception 4after the funeral that that occurred, so it was 5pretty much a done deal there. 6 It certainly had an effect -- 7well, it’s a separate issue, but it would have had 8an effect on the information provided to the 9funeral home, which is another rabbit hole we have 10to go down. 11 Q. Sadly, yes. 12 A. For the funeral out here, the 13actual interment at Hatley Field, no, it wouldn’t 14have had that great an effect, other than the angst 15of having her there. 16 Q. I would like to ask you 17before I forget whether at this point you were ever 18present during a discussion either by you or by 19others of the existence of a suicide note. 20 A. No. 21 Q. Let’s try to talk about some 22of these issues. It’s hard to do this 23chronologically because they move backwards, then 24move forward, and we are never quite sure where we 25are.
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 38 2 3 4 5 1 THE CHAIRPERSON: When you find 2the right time, let’s take our morning break. 3 MR. FREIMAN: Let’s do that right 4now. 5 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will break 6until 11:00. 7--- Short recess at 10:45 a.m. 8--- Upon resuming at 11:05 a.m. 9 MR. FREIMAN: 10 Q. Major, I apologize, we are 11about to go into a couple of interrelated and 12complex areas. I hope people assembled here don’t 13go to sleep as we try to unravel it, but there are 14some important points, so let’s try to do this 15carefully and as logically as we can. 16 I want to start with one of a 17number of interrelated topics. Let me tell you 18what the interrelated topics are. They are the 19issue of who are the primary and secondary next of 20kin, the issue of who is the proper recipient of 21statutory death benefits, the issue of common law 22status and the implications of common law status. 23If I tell you all three of those topics, you will 24know that they are all interrelated and we are 25going to try to pull them apart just a little bit.
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 39 2 3 4 5 1 Let me start with the issue of 2primary next of kin. We have already seen that as 3of almost the first day you were on the job, there 4was a change from the initial thinking that Mr. and 5Mrs. Fynes were the primary next of kin to the 6ruling that the next of kin for purposes of 7preparing for the funeral would be Rebecca 8Hamilton-Tree. 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. At some point this 11determination was modified or reversed. 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. From your recollection, when 14was the first that you heard from anyone that there 15was a change in who was going to be regarded as the 16primary and secondary next of kin? 17 A. The exact date, time and 18place, I am not sure of. I believe it’s when Shaun 19Fynes told me. 20 Q. Let’s look at a document in 21which this is mentioned. This is tab 31. It’s an 22e-mail chain, a lengthy one, between you and, I 23believe, Shaun Fynes even though the heading is 24ASheila Fynes”. 25 A. Yes.
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 40 2 3 4 5 1 Q. Let’s look at the heading for 2December 12th. It’s right near the beginning of 3this e-mail chain. In fact, it is the first one. 4This of course is the last chronologically in the 5chain. 6 If you look at point 9, it’s a 7simple statement: 8 AWe have been told that we 9 are now considered to be the 10 primary next of kin. Please 11 confirm if that is indeed the 12 case.” (As read) 13 Would this be the e-mail that you 14are referring to about Shaun telling you or might 15this have happened earlier? 16 A. No. This would be it. 17 Q. If I understand correctly, 18from your point of view the first time that you 19were made aware of a change in or a modification in 20who was primary next of kin would have been all the 21way in December 2008. 22 A. Somewhere after there because 23I would have taken this and gone back and queried 24it. 25 Q. Right. Let’s look at the
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 41 2 3 4 5 1some of the efforts to query that. Let’s look at 2tab 18. 3 This is yet another e-mail chain. 4If we look at the entry for December 17, this is 5going back and forth between the new adjutant at 6the LdSH, Captain Angell, and Warrant Officer 7Doucette, who is the chief clerk for the LdSH. 8 Let’s look at Warrant Officer 9Doucette’s response. At the top you will see you 10are informing Shaun and Sheila and tell them to 11look at the two e-mails below. The first e-mail 12below is from Captain Angell to you with the chief 13clerk’s answers to the questions. Here is what 14Warrant Officer Doucette says: 15 ASir, I have reviewed copies 16 of the documents which were 17 submitted as part of Corporal 18 Langridge’s Pers file 19 including a copy of the PEN 20 form and a printout of the 21 pay screens at the time of 22 his death. The PEN form 23 indicates Shaun Fynes as the 24 primary next of kin and 25 Sheila Fynes as secondary
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 42 2 3 4 5 1 next of kin. Yes, they are 2 his primary next of kin. I 3 don’t think that was in 4 question. It was the 5 beneficiary of the SDB. 6 Secondly, the debit amount in 7 question...” (As read) 8 And there is some discussion of 9that. What was your understanding of what was 10going on here now? 11 A. They are still trying to make 12a determination of who -- at this stage it was 13probably a moot point because the primary next of 14kin had been issued to Rebecca for the purposes of 15the funeral. 16 Q. Yes. 17 A. They had taken the SDB ruling 18and the AJAG, I guess, in discussion -- I don’t 19know. But they came to the conclusion that it was 20Rebecca who had that authority to conduct the 21funeral and things like that. 22 Q. I was going to ask you 23whether you had any understanding of the 24relationship between the issue of who was going to 25be getting the SDB and the issue of who was the
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 43 2 3 4 5 1primary next of kin. 2 A. Based on the PEN form, it 3would be as per the PEN form. 4 Q. Right. 5 A. That made sense to me, but 6that was no different information that they had had 7since day one. 8 Q. Was this ever explained to 9you to your satisfaction? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Did you have subsequent 12discussions with Shaun and Sheila? 13 A. I probably did. 14 Q. Did you get the impression 15that they were satisfied with the explanation of 16what was going on? 17 A. No, they weren’t. 18 Q. Let’s go back and deal with 19another issue that is raised by Warrant Officer 20Doucette, and that is the SDB form. From your 21perspective, what was the issue about statutory 22death benefits? 23 A. That the member could fill 24out a Supplementary Death Benefit form and could 25name whoever they want as the beneficiary of that
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 44 2 3 4 5 1supplementary death benefit. 2 Q. In this case, the form we 3know named Rebecca Hamilton-Tree as the 4beneficiary. 5 A. Correct. 6 Q. Do you recall this being an 7irritant at any time near or around the date of the 8funeral or shortly thereafter? 9 A. I recall that impression in 10my mind, yes. 11 Q. I would like to turn your 12attention to tab 38. This is an e-mail -- again, 13the header is ASheila Fynes”, but I believe it’s 14probably Shaun’s e-mail. It’s an e-mail chain that 15goes on for a while. It deals, among other things, 16with the executor issue. I would like to follow 17the last two e-mails. Again, we have to look at 18them backwards. 19 I am going to ask you to look at 20page 2. This is from Ms Touchette to you about 21issues arising from the will, the executorship, 22statutory death benefits. Madam Touchette works 23for pensions and estates in Ottawa. She was 24dealing with the Ottawa end of these 25determinations. Here is what she writes: 26 6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 45 2 3 4 5 1 AMajor Parkinson, I did 2 receive the military will 3 where the first executor 4 named is David White and as 5 per old version of the 6 military will, the second 7 executor, James Langridge, is 8 taken over as executor only 9 in the event of the death of 10 the first mentioned executor. 11 A will is a legal document 12 and if Mr. White is not 13 willing to act as executor, 14 we can ask him to complete a 15 renunciation form and the 16 court will have to appoint 17 another executor. You can 18 refer to section 23 of the 19 Administration of States Act. 20 This being said, I spoke to 21 David White today who, by the 22 way, is having a hard time 23 with the death of his friend 24 and he basically told me he 25 does not wish to renounce his
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 46 2 3 4 5 1 rights as executor at this 2 time. He would like to find 3 out what his role as executor 4 would be before making any 5 decisions.” (As read) 6 Then she goes on to say she is 7going to send him a renunciation form. She goes 8on: 9 AAs per our conversation, 10 there is a common law spouse 11 involved, but in order for 12 the common law relationship 13 to be recognized, they have 14 to have lived together for at 15 least a year. Should you 16 have any concerns or 17 questions relating to the 18 administration of the service 19 estate, please feel free to 20 contact me.” (As read) 21 I don’t want to deal for the 22moment with the issues of David White and his 23renunciation. We will deal with the will and the 24numerous forms that it took in a minute. 25 Right at the end Madam Touchette
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 47 2 3 4 5 1introduces the concept AAs per our conversation, 2there is a common law spouse involved, but in order 3for the common law relationship to be recognized, 4they have to have lived together for at least a 5year.” 6 At this point, did you have an 7understanding of the connection between the issue 8of the existence of a common law spouse, the time 9that is necessary to have her recognized as a 10common law spouse in any of the issues you were 11dealing with? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Tell me what that was. 14 A. Basically, the forces had -- 15I thought it was six months’ time, but I guess it’s 16a year they recognize common law status. But in 17the Province of Alberta they have a cohabitation -- 18they don’t call it common law. 19 Q. They call it adult 20interdependent partner. 21 A. Yes. Therein is why I 22wouldn’t remember that name. 23 There is a two-year requirement on 24that one and you have to have submitted a public 25declaration.
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 48 2 3 4 5 1 Q. Yes. 2 A. That had not been done, nor 3had the timeline been achieved in that. That 4became important when it came to the issue of the 5proof of death certificate. The proof of death 6certificate, the information was provided to the 7funeral home by Rebecca Hamilton-Tree, not by the 8parents because they didn’t have the authority to 9talk to them. Rebecca gave incorrect information, 10incorrect address for the place of his death, and a 11couple of other items there that led to great 12problems for the Fynes. They had to take legal 13action in order to get the proof of death amended, 14which they did at a cost of something like $10,000 15to themselves. 16 Q. Right. That was the 17connection. From your perspective and in terms of 18the conversations you were having with Mr. and Mrs. 19Fynes, what was the importance to them other than 20their frustration at wrong information, as they saw 21it, being put on the proof of death certificate? 22What was the importance to them of the common law 23relationship existing or not existing? 24 A. I think it had to deal with 25what was true and what wasn’t. Certainly it had
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 49 2 3 4 5 1the effect on them that they weren’t responsible 2for, or didn’t have complete control over the 3funeral, nor did they receive the flag at the end 4of the funeral service. That was a pretty real 5consequence of an incorrect decision. 6 Q. Let’s look at what Mr. Fynes 7then writes to you about some further aspects of 8all these issues. He writes: 9 AMajor Parkinson, thank you 10 for this information. We 11 consult with a lawyer today 12 who is arranging referral for 13 us to a trusted lawyer in the 14 Province of Alberta. Our 15 contention as nexus to all of 16 this is that Stuart and 17 Rebecca were not, to my 18 knowledge ... adult 19 interdependent partner 20 agreement. Please note also 21 proof of death certificate 22 showed an incorrect address 23 for Stuart, etc.” (As read) 24 This is the issue that you alerted 25us to. He says about the address: 26 6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 50 2 3 4 5 1 AThat was the former address 2 for Stuart and Rebecca, but 3 they had not lived together 4 since 6 January 2008. 5 Rebecca vacated on 13 January 6 2008 and removed her 7 belongings including jointly 8 acquired items. Sheila, with 9 the aid of the Padré, later 10 emptied the house while 11 Stuart was still committed in 12 hospital for 30 days. 13 Whatever paperwork Stuart 14 completed for the army 15 shortly before their 16 separation was, as reported 17 to us, merely a connivance to 18 allow Rebecca a one-week trip 19 to Nanaimo at army expense 20 where Stuart was to attend 21 rehab. Supporting a 22 contention of undue influence 23 is that Rebecca still made 24 the trip after her separation 25 knowing that Stuart was no
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 51 2 3 4 5 1 longer there and would be 2 liable for her costs. Of 3 concern to us also is that 4 when Stuart completed army 5 paperwork, he also apparently 6 changed his SDB beneficiary. 7 In December, following a 8 successful intervention by my 9 wife, we thought that Stuart 10 was remaining sober and 11 abstaining from alcohol in 12 anticipation of attending 13 rehab. We were later to 14 learn that he was, although 15 seeming to function, instead 16 self-medicating with cocaine 17 on top of his prescribed 18 antidepressants. He was 19 under a doctor’s care and 20 deemed unfit for regular 21 duty. I don’t believe that 22 at the time he was in a 23 mental state sufficient to 24 fully comprehend his actions. 25 In February, Stuart phoned
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 52 2 3 4 5 1 home the evening before one 2 of his attempts on his life 3 and talked with me for about 4 an hour. During that 5 conversation, I was concerned 6 by comments that if anything 7 were to happen to him, that 8 his mother would be well 9 looked for. I believe he was 10 completely unaware that he 11 had signed a change of 12 beneficiary. Please forward 13 as required.” (As read) 14 Again, the language is pretty 15clear, but I want to understand the context. What 16was your understanding now of the position that the 17Fynes were taking and the concerns they were 18expressing on matters having to do with the 19relationship between Stuart and Ms Hamilton-Tree, 20whether it was common law or whether it was not, 21whether forms were signed under undue influence or 22not. What was going on here? 23 A. Well, they didn’t know and 24they were concerned about that. They didn’t think 25that the original, shall we say, decision that they
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 53 2 3 4 5 1would not be listed as the primary next of kin was 2-- they thought that was incorrect. They didn’t 3think Rebecca should ever have had the ability to 4tell the funeral home the information that they 5needed. 6 Q. Yes. 7 A. They had some doubt as to 8whether she was actually entitled to the 9supplementary death benefit. 10 Q. Yes. 11 A. Those are the ones I can 12recall off the top of my head. 13 Q. Were you at all involved in 14any efforts that they might have made to stop 15supplementary death benefits being paid to Rebecca, 16or was that not part of your role as assisting 17officer? 18 A. Not part of my role. I may 19have passed it along as a concern, but that would 20have been the extent of that. 21 Q. Let’s then move forward a 22little bit. We talked about the death 23certificates. I would like to move backward and 24make sure we have all of the background and the 25detail.
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 54 2 3 4 5 1 Give me a second and I will find 2the appropriate place in my notes. 3 You have told us that there was 4considerable concern about incorrect information in 5the death certificates. 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. I would like to look with you 8-- I believe it’s tab 79. This is one of several 9similar bits of communication. It’s dated April 109th. I think you are forwarding to yourself a -- 11because it’s going from Stewart Parkinson to -- or 12is that a different Major Parkinson? 13 A. No, no. It’s the same one. 14One is going from my -- heaven knows why that looks 15like that. 16 Q. It looks as though you are 17making a note to yourself. 18 A. I could easily have been 19doing just that. 20 Q. You then forwarded it to 21Major Lubiniecki. Here is your e-mail. First you 22provide information about Mr. David White who, as 23we know, on April 9th was still considered to be 24the executor. 25 A(2) Shaun and Sheila asked
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 55 2 3 4 5 1 that the truck, once 2 released, not be given to 3 Rebecca. They will, upon 4 notification, come out to 5 pick it up.” (As read) 6 Do you remember what this issue 7was about? 8 A. I think they had concerns 9that Rebecca, because of her status, would be 10entitled as joint property and would receive the 11vehicle. 12 Q. AFinally, note that Stuart’s 13 address listed on the proof 14 of death certificate is 15 wrong. It should read the 16 same as his place of death. 17 I have contacted Evergreen 18 Memorial Gardens and 19 Cemeteries in regards to this 20 discrepancy and they have 21 forwarded corrected copies. 22 As an AAR point, whoever 23 provided Evergreen with the 24 information about his address 25 was incorrect and he/she
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 56 2 3 4 5 1 should be informed as to the 2 requirement for accurate 3 information requirements on 4 legal documents.” (As read) 5 Tell me about this. 6 A. At that time it had a major 7effect because the proof of death was wrong. 8 Q. Right. 9 A. The Fynes certainly knew 10that. They brought that to my attention. I seem 11to remember discussing with -- not the funeral 12director, but the individual employed by Evergreen 13who made up the proof of death. I know he was 14visibly upset about that because of the legal 15ramifications of creating an incorrect proof of 16death. He then created a secondary proof of death 17and provided it to the Fynes. For that he lost his 18job because that was another illegal act. So there 19were consequences there. 20 Q. What is the source of your 21information that somebody lost their job over this? 22 A. That would be the Fynes. 23 Q. We have heard some 24descriptions with respect to the proof of death 25with multiple copies and people being handed one
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 57 2 3 4 5 1thing or not handed something at the funeral. Are 2you aware of that issue at all? Or is that 3something that happened of which you weren’t aware? 4 A. I can’t recall with any 5degree of certainty. 6 Q. Before we go on to the topic 7that brings all these matters together, namely, the 8newly found four documents, I would like to cover 9off a few other points we have heard about and get 10your perspective on them. One was the inventory of 11Corporal Langridge’s possessions. Take us through 12your recollection of the various concerns that 13might have been expressed by Mr. and Mrs. Fynes and 14what you did about them. 15 A. The inventory of Stuart’s 16stuff was done as part of the committee of 17adjustment. That is a requirement. The problems 18that entailed that the Fynes had problems with, one 19is I think two of the individuals doing the 20accounting of that stuff were friends of Rebecca’s. 21 Q. Yes. 22 A. That was pointed out to -- it 23was mentioned to me and I turned around and 24mentioned it to Captain Lubiniecki and they were 25removed from that detail.
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 58 2 3 4 5 1 Q. Yes. 2 A. I know over the course of 3time they got three different inventory lists that 4were all different from one another, not completely 5different, but there were different items listed on 6some and some were missing on others. So they had 7concerns about the accuracy of those inventories. 8Also they had a problem with the condition of the 9vehicle. 10 Q. Fortunately we are not 11dealing with the condition of the vehicle as part 12of our issues, so we don’t have to worry about 13that. 14 From your point of view, were 15these issues ever resolved satisfactorily? 16 A. I don’t ever recall -- I know 17one of the items they knew was missing from when 18Sheila was there with Stuart packing up the place 19was the Samurai sword. I don’t believe she ever 20got that back. 21 Q. Yes. 22 A. So, yes, there were continual 23problems. 24 Q. On the issue of personal 25effects, I think the documents give us a good
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 59 2 3 4 5 1guide. I am not going to take you through an 2exhaustive review of that, but there’s a couple of 3issues that just from your memory I would like you 4to comment on. The first was the issue of the 5BlackBerry. Do you remember any points about that 6and how that issue developed and was resolved or 7not? 8 A. I would have to look at the 9notes on that. I know there is an issue with it, 10but I don’t recall what it is. 11 Q. Do you recall issues with the 12computer? We have already seen the first thing 13which was access to the computer and for what 14purpose. 15 A. Yes. I remember at some 16point or another the NIS tried to go into that 17computer and they didn’t find anything on it. 18 Q. Yes. 19 A. That’s one thing that sticks 20in my mind. To my knowledge, nobody has been able 21to get into that computer since. 22 Q. There was also, as we 23understand it, an issue about Corporal Langridge’s 24medical file and what was to be done with it. Do 25you remember that issue?
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 60 2 3 4 5 1 A. I do. They mentioned that 2Padré Hubbard had received that medical file and 3had turned it in to Corporal Langridge’s effects as 4part of the committee of adjustment, and the Fynes 5were curious as to where that was. 6 Q. Do you recall earlier 7discussions about Rebecca’s wishes with respect to 8the medical files? 9 A. Yes. If I recall, coming 10from Mr. Brown, she didn’t want the Fynes to have 11those medical records. 12 Q. Were you aware of any reasons 13for that? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Can we look, then, to the 16issue of the newly found four documents. We have 17heard quite a bit of evidence from a number of 18sources that at some point after Corporal 19Langridge’s suicide but before his funeral -- and 20we think it was around March 20th -- Master 21Corporal Fitzpatrick says that he was cleaning up 22his office and behind a filing cabinet he found 23four documents. One was a will, one was an SDB 24form, one was a PEN form and one was a Memorial 25Cross form.
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 61 2 3 4 5 1 Each of those, as we then learned, 2had some issues attached to them in terms of 3whether they were valid and what they meant and 4what effect they would have. 5 I want to start our discussion 6with your recollection of the first time that 7anyone brought any aspect of this matter to your 8attention. 9 A. For myself, the first time I 10noticed it was probably months later when Shaun 11mentioned the documents had been found. 12 Q. Right. We do have an e-mail 13that I would like to discuss with you, tab 58. 14This is right after the funeral. Major Jared is 15writing to you and he says: 16 AStewart, please pass on my 17 apologies to the family as I 18 was in error. Corporal 19 Langridge filled out a new 20 SDB that was not signed, 21 witnessed or dated. Ottawa 22 has already ruled it invalid 23 and the original document is 24 in the process of being 25 actioned. The signed
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 62 2 3 4 5 1 document that I was thinking 2 of was in fact another will 3 confirming his mother as the 4 primary beneficiary. If you 5 or the family have questions, 6 please give me a call on my 7 cell...” (As read) 8 And we have wrongly not taken out 9that personal information in the document. 10 Does this ring any bells for you? 11 A. This particular e-mail, no. 12What I would have done with this is I would have 13forwarded this to the Fynes. 14 Q. This doesn’t provide any 15context as to what the error was and what had been 16said. Am I correct in saying it had no meaning to 17you other than you passed it on? 18 A. I did. I didn’t phone Major 19Jared on that item. 20 Q. I would now like to pass on 21to another communication that was sent on this 22general topic. It’s in the second book of 23documents. It’s the very first one, tab 81. This 24is Friday, the 18th of April, two or three weeks 25after the funeral, three weeks after the funeral,
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 63 2 3 4 5 1more or less. This is Madam Touchette who, as we 2have seen before, does estates and administration 3in Ottawa. She writes to you: 4 AMajor Parkinson, I am taking 5 this opportunity to inform 6 you this office will require 7 the original documents, i.e., 8 designation of Memorial Cross 9 Recipients form, PEN form, 10 SDB form, and Will form, 11 which were found, scanned and 12 sent to me via e-mail by 13 Captain Lubiniecki. The 14 office will also require an 15 affidavit from the persons 16 who found the document as to 17 when and where they were 18 found and under which 19 circumstances.” (As read) 20 And she gives a reference to some 21regulatory provisions. Did this document mean 22anything to you when you received it? 23 A. No, because I was curious as 24to why I received it because I wouldn’t have any 25control over any documents that she was referring
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 64 2 3 4 5 1to. 2 Q. Yes. 3 A. I wouldn’t have the ability 4to get them signed. So what I would have done with 5this would have been to forward it to Captain 6Lubiniecki. The fact that new documents were 7found, I probably missed that in my reading of 8that. So the relevance of it was probably missed 9by me. 10 Q. There isn’t anything that 11stands out in that document to point out its 12importance, but you are telling us that you passed 13it on and it didn’t ring a bell with you. 14 A. No. There was action 15required and not being able to accomplish that 16action, I would have forwarded it to Captain 17Lubiniecki who could then do that. 18 Q. The next document is an e- 19mail chain beginning on the 6th of May and ending 20on the 16th and 17th of June 2008. We are going to 21find it at tab 57. 22 Again, we have to read it back to 23front. The first e-mail really has to do with 24inventory of effects and matters dealing with David 25White. The next e-mail is an e-mail responding to
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 65 2 3 4 5 1yours giving the appreciation of the Fynes. The 2third e-mail again deals with matters dealing with 3David White. It says: 4 AWe spoke by phone with 5 David, executor, this 6 afternoon. He was told in 7 early April that the 8 inventory of Stuart’s 9 personal effects would be 10 forwarded and the service 11 estate released within three 12 weeks. This has not been the 13 case and no explanation 14 offered. David last spoke to 15 Ottawa in early May and since 16 then his calls have gone 17 unanswered. Before we take 18 any action for redress, we 19 want to assure you of our 20 gratitude to you personally 21 for all your support and 22 professionalism.” (As read) 23 I read that as a storm cloud 24arising and the Fynes telling you they have a major 25issue and they are going to deal with it but not to
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 66 2 3 4 5 1take it as any personal slight to you because they 2continue to be grateful to you. Okay? 3 A. Okay. 4 Q. That’s just setting the scene 5because next we have an important e-mail sent by 6Madam Touchette to Mr. and Mrs. Fynes. From the 7opening, it appears to me that this is the first 8contact by Madam Touchette with the Fynes. You are 9copied on this as the assisting officer. I would 10like to go over with you some of the things that 11are said in this and what they meant to you. 12 First and foremost, she says: 13 APlease accept my sincere 14 condolences to you and your 15 family in relation to the 16 death of your son. I 17 received an e-mail from your 18 assisting officer concerning 19 the delay in the release of 20 your son’s personal effects 21 and service estate monetary 22 entitlement. Please take 23 under consideration that I am 24 unfortunately backlogged with 25 the Afghanistan war, but I do
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 67 2 3 4 5 1 apologize for the delays in 2 your son’s service estate and 3 I will explain, as I 4 explained to the Edmonton 5 unit.” (As read) 6 And here she goes: 7 AAs you know, some documents 8 were later found with regard 9 to the estate of your son 10 Corporal Langridge, i.e., 11 designation of Memorial Cross 12 recipient, PEN form, SDB form 13 and DAOD form 701A, Will 14 form. Although there was 15 nothing we could do with 16 regard to the first three 17 forms, the Will form, 18 although it is unwitnessed, 19 was found to be valid.” (As 20 read) 21 Then she cites a section of the 22Alberta Wills Act. She says: 23 AConclusion: Therefore, 24 according to the latest will 25 found and above Alberta Wills
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 68 2 3 4 5 1 Act, Mr. Shaun Fynes could 2 now be the estate executor 3 for Corporal Langridge’s 4 estate. I apologize for the 5 delay, but in order to 6 enforce this will, you needed 7 an affidavit from Corporal 8 Langridge’s unit attesting 9 that he was on active service 10 at the time the latest will 11 was completed, and we 12 obtained that affidavit for 13 you in order to save you 14 legal fees. In response to 15 Mr. White’s statement...” (As 16 read) 17 She goes on to explain how busy 18she is and says: 19 AOnce I receive these 20 documents...” 21 Anyway, she explains all the 22details by way of justification for not acting 23sooner. She concludes: 24 AI will be sending you a 25 letter tomorrow by priority
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 69 2 3 4 5 1 post which will include the 2 latest will and affidavits. 3 Since we now have most 4 documents in hand, we will be 5 able to distribute the 6 military estate very soon. 7 Please rest assured it’s my 8 duty to provide good service 9 to our grieving families as 10 much as I can.” (As read) 11 Do you recall this letter at all? 12 A. I have seen it. As I was 13cc’d on it, it would have hit my e-mail address the 14same time as Shaun and Sheila. 15 Q. Do you recall whether it made 16any impression on you or caused you to rethink any 17of the issues that were going on? 18 A. The only thing I would have 19thought about probably from this was: AGood, there 20would be some movement on his personal effects.” 21 Q. At this point, had you seen 22any of the other four documents? 23 A. I never have. 24 Q. Were you in fact aware of the 25affidavit that was executed by Corporal Fitzpatrick
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 70 2 3 4 5 1about what he found and how he found it? 2 A. No, I have never seen that. 3 Q. Even though you were the 4assisting officer, as I understand it, you weren’t 5copied on any of that correspondence or you weren’t 6given copies of any of those documents to provide 7to Mr. and Mrs. Fynes. 8 A. No. 9 Q. Tab 15 is more e-mail 10correspondence. This deals with the inventory list 11and the release of personal effects, but it also 12deals with the issue of the fifth document. Let me 13just set the stage for you and see if this rings a 14bell. We have seen in Madam Touchette’s e-mail 15reference to four documents. It’s my 16understanding, and we have heard some testimony at 17this hearing, that Mr. and Mrs. Fynes believed 18there was also a fifth document. That is a 19document that would have dealt with the dissolution 20of common law status that had been declared in 21December. 22 Were you made aware of this issue 23at any point by Mr. and Mrs. Fynes? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Can you tell me the
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 71 2 3 4 5 1circumstances under which -- or do you have a time 2frame for it? 3 A. No, I have no time frame. I 4remember them discussing that they thought there 5would be another document there, their supposition 6being that if those four forms had been started, 7why would he not have started the fifth document. 8 Q. Okay. Let’s look at some of 9these e-mails from back to front just to get a 10sense of the chronology and what were the important 11issues in people’s minds. 12 We are now looking at the first e- 13mail in the chain which is the last one in the 14book, of course. It’s dated Monday, 29 September 152008. This is some time after the June e-mail that 16we just looked at. This is from the Fynes to you. 17 AMajor Parkinson, as you are 18 aware, I am now designated as 19 the executor of Stuart’s 20 estate.” (As read) 21 And you are aware that because of 22the letter we just saw, the June e-mail. 23 AOne of my duties in that 24 role is to gather together 25 all available information as
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 72 2 3 4 5 1 to Stuart’s known assets and 2 debts.” (As read) 3 You are asked to put together some 4documentation about the state of the finances. At 5point 3, Mr. Fynes continues: 6 AIn an undated statutory 7 declaration of Master 8 Corporal Fitzpatrick, he 9 attests that he had provided 10 Stuart with documentation 11 requiring update due to old 12 dates and Stuart’s change in 13 marital status. Between 14 Stuart’s death and the 15 funeral, he >found’ copies in 16 his office of Stuart’s 17 updated will, Supplementary 18 Death Benefit change of 19 beneficiary, Designation of 20 Memorial Cross Recipient, and 21 Personal Emergency 22 Notification. Originals of 23 these forms were forwarded to 24 me. Conspicuously missing is 25 the paperwork for the recent
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 73 2 3 4 5 1 change of marital status 2 which had prompted the 3 updating of Stuart’s 4 documentation in the first 5 place. I would like a copy 6 of that documentation too. 7 Thank you for your help in 8 this matter.” (As read) 9 Just for purpose of chronology, 10that seems to be the first point where we have seen 11in writing the contention that there must have been 12a fifth document. 13 You forward this to Madam 14Touchette. You also expressed -- and this is 15another issue we will be dealing with shortly -- 16concern about the delay in convening a BOI. It’s 17in this chain of e-mails that I think Madam 18Touchette also states later that she is unaware of 19a fifth document, none has been found. We don’t 20have to look for that now. That puts us into the 21fall where we now know there are four documents, a 22will has been found and found to be valid, 23therefore Mr. Fynes is now the executor. We also 24know that there has been a change in the primary 25next of kin.
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 74 2 3 4 5 1 Do you know whether that had 2anything to do with these four documents? Were you 3ever told? The very first thing we looked at was a 4December e-mail exchange about who is the primary 5next of kin where Shaun asked for confirmation. 6Was it your view that that December e-mail had 7anything to do with the four documents we were 8looking at? 9 A. I never put the two and two 10together. 11 Q. For whatever reason, we know 12there has been a designation of a primary next of 13kin. I guess the last issue that we need to deal 14with in connection with the four documents is the 15Memorial Cross. 16 Give me a second and I will find 17the documentation dealing with this. 18 Just to put you in the picture, 19the Memorial Cross Designation form, as we have 20seen it, is properly dated and signed. It has Mrs. 21Fynes as the recipient for Memorial Cross and then 22in part 3 at the bottom there is a statement AI do 23not wish a Memorial Cross to be awarded” and there 24is a tick box as an option for the person who 25completes it to tick off. Corporal Langridge has
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 75 2 3 4 5 1ticked off that box as well, so we had a bit of a 2contradiction between naming his mother as the 3beneficiary and appearing to say he didn’t want a 4Memorial Cross. 5 Were you, by the way, aware of 6that form and that contradiction? 7 A. I was aware of the form. I 8think I have a recollection of it, but I wasn’t 9aware of the contradiction in it. 10 Q. From your recollection, what 11was the importance of the Memorial Cross issue or 12any other issues of memorializing Corporal 13Langridge? 14 A. The only one that comes to my 15mind is the Land Forces Western Area Wall of 16Remembrance and the lack of Corporal Langridge’s 17name as members lost to LFWA. 18 Q. Do you remember how that 19issue unfolded? 20 A. Sheila was upset when she 21first got notice that there was a Wall of 22Remembrance that Stuart’s name was not among those 23listed. She queried as to why not, which I 24forwarded up. The answer that came back is that he 25wasn’t lost on operations.
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 76 2 3 4 5 1 Q. Did you convey that message 2to the Fynes? 3 A. I did. 4 Q. How did they receive that? 5 A. Not well. 6 Q. Do you know whether either of 7the two issues, the Memorial Cross issue or the 8Wall of Remembrance issue, was resolved? 9 A. I believe Sheila received the 10Memorial Cross. 11 Q. I promised we would get to 12the BOI, and here is that happy moment. What is 13your recollection of when the issue of a BOI and 14its timing first began to surface? 15 A. I started querying it very 16early in the proceedings. I would have asked about 17that when I was at the funeral. So very early in 18the proceedings. 19 I know Captain Lubiniecki was 20consistent in forwarding off the request for the 21board of inquiry to brigade, and never got a 22response back. 23 Q. In fact, when we looked at 24tab 80 which was an e-mail -- I don’t think we need 25to look at it in any detail. This is dated, as you
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 77 2 3 4 5 1suggest, early on in April of 2008. There is a 2number of matters mentioned and one of the matters 3in one of the earlier e-mails -- sorry, I have the 4wrong tab. Tab 80 is your request and your 5comments which note the question: When will the 6board of inquiry be convened? 7 I will find that for you in a 8second. 9 A. That’s the 7th. 10 Q. The 7th point. As of the 8th 11of April, you were already asking about any details 12for the release of the board of inquiry. If we 13look at tab 36, you will see Captain Lubiniecki’s 14response. I think it’s the next one in the chain. 15We looked at this for a different reason. This is 16Tuesday, 6th of May. It’s on the second page. You 17write to Shaun and Sheila saying: 18 ASorry for not making contact 19 sooner. I want to let you 20 know I’m still definitely 21 acting as your assisting 22 officer. I was in Edmonton 23 last week and saw the 24 Adjutant Mark Lubiniecki who 25 had received no word on the
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 78 2 3 4 5 1 board of inquiry which he 2 understood would not be 3 convened until after the NIS 4 investigation report was 5 completed.” (As read) 6 So in May we have exactly as you 7told us, mention that the board of inquiry had no 8special date but it would happen after the NIS 9investigation. 10 The next notice that I see is tab 1146. This is another e-mail chain. You will see in 12your e-mail of the 31st of July you say: 13 AJust so you know, I haven’t 14 forgotten and will continue 15 to nudge the system toward a 16 resolution of this issue of 17 the board of inquiry.” (As 18 read) 19 So here we are, the 31st of July. 20The next document that I found is at tab 15. This 21is yet another e-mail chain dealing largely with 22issues of personal effects. Let me find the 23reference to the board of inquiry. The 1st of 24October; it’s one of the first e-mails. 25 A. One October, my e-mail to
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 79 2 3 4 5 1Suzanne? 2 Q. Yes. 3 A. Yes, concerned that the BOI 4had not yet occurred as of 1 October. 5 Q. Do you recall whether you got 6any response from Madam Touchette about the BOI? 7 A. No. 8 Q. So let’s move forward in time 9to the 24th of October. Here we have tab 56. 10 MS RICHARDS: I hesitate to 11interrupt, but it’s not clear to me what relevance 12the timing of the BOI has. We are not 13investigating how or why they commenced the BOI. 14It wasn’t investigated by the MPs. It wasn’t a 15matter for investigation by the MPs. I’m not sure 16of the relevance. 17 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Freiman? 18 MR. FREIMAN: I am willing to pass 19on that. We are dealing with the interrelation of 20a number of different issues and how they came 21together around the BOI. I am content to ask Major 22Parkinson just a general question. 23 Q. How was the issue of the 24timing of the BOI resolved? Was it resolved to the 25satisfaction of Mr. and Mrs. Fynes?
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 80 2 3 4 5 1 A. I finally sent a very pointed 2e-mail up the chain of command. 3 Q. Yes. 4 A. I got a very pointed response 5back, and it broke a backlog which created the 6first board of inquiry. That was curtailed because 7they couldn’t do it. Then the second board of 8inquiry occurred with Major Parlee. The 9commencement date of that, I’m not sure. I know 10that didn’t go over well. 11 Q. Let me take you to those 12pointed e-mails. You are going to have to give me 13a moment to find them. 14 THE CHAIRPERSON: I don’t know if 15that last answer even answered your question. 16 MR. FREIMAN: 17 Q. What I was looking for was 18your perception as to how the issue of the board of 19inquiry developed over time and what effect it had 20on the general relationship between Mr. and Mrs. 21Fynes and the Canadian military. 22 A. By not setting a board of 23inquiry and conducting it, a lot of his personal 24effects were held back, or at least there was a lot 25of e-mail traffic on that. Items from his personal
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 81 2 3 4 5 1effects were being held back until completion of 2the board of inquiry. Because the board of inquiry 3was continually not being set, there was no release 4of the personal effects, so it was a catch-22 for 5the Fynes. 6 Q. Let’s look at tab 74. This 7is your e-mail to Major G.R. Hamilton-Brown. Have 8a look at it and tell me what was the occasion of 9sending it and what was the purpose of sending it? 10 A. My purpose of the e-mail was 11to ensure that the Fynes were participants in the 12board of inquiry. 13 Q. Let me read what you said: 14 AI personally have no issues, 15 but I feel it is my duty to 16 inform you that the Fynes 17 definitely have a multitude 18 of issues, not the least of 19 which is their participation 20 in the BOI in a meaningful 21 way. You will understand if 22 after 10 months of being 23 deceived, misled and 24 intentionally marginalized 25 [at] various points that they
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 82 2 3 4 5 1 have no faith left in the 2 system. A bottom line for 3 them at this point is some 4 sign of real respect for 5 Corporal Langridge in a 6 meaningful participation in 7 the BOI. From a practical 8 point, please pass on to 9 Major Parlee no one has a 10 better understanding of the 11 circumstances that led up to 12 his suicide than the Fynes. 13 To put it another way, they 14 know what questions need to 15 be asked and answered by the 16 BOI, so I would suggest their 17 participation is highly 18 desirable and necessary.” (As 19 read) 20 Did you get a response to this? 21 A. Why, yes, I did. 22 Q. Tell me about the response. 23 A. It was wondering about my 24impartiality. 25 Q. Yes.
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 83 2 3 4 5 1 A. Which, based on the number of 2years of service I have, I personally feel 3perfectly comfortable with my impartiality. I was 4doing my job trying to get them to move toward a 5specific point that should have been actioned a 6long time before 10 months later. 7 Q. Let’s look at tab 65 which is 8your answer back. You write to Major Hamilton- 9Brown: 10 AI saw your response last 11 night to me which was in 12 response to my e-mail of 21 13 January 09. I want to assure 14 you that I understand fully 15 for whom I work, that being 16 the CO of LdSH, and that my 17 role is merely that of a 18 facilitator. I felt it was 19 vital that you understand the 20 Fynes’ current state of mind 21 and it was not meant to be 22 some accusation against the 23 system I have proudly 24 belonged to for almost 40 25 years. I am quite certain
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 84 2 3 4 5 1 Major Parlee and the BOI’s 2 end results, findings, will 3 ascertain the truth or 4 falsehood of whether they 5 were lied to, misled or 6 marginalized. I should also 7 assure you and the CO of the 8 LdSH that I am not so close 9 to the Fynes that it is 10 impairing my ability to do my 11 job. If it were, be most 12 certain I would request 13 removal from the position.” 14 (As read) 15 Tell me about the conversation 16that you had and what happened as a result of this? 17 A. Conversation with whom? 18 Q. It looks as thought there was 19a response from Major Hamilton-Brown. 20 A. That’s that e-mail that we 21just went through that questioned my ability to be 22impartial -- 23 Q. Yes. 24 A. -- and whether I was just 25defaming the system, as I recall it, along those
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 85 2 3 4 5 1lines. I just wanted to assure him that I wasn’t. 2 Q. From your observations, did 3this cause any change in your ability to do your 4job on behalf of Mr. and Mrs. Fynes? 5 A. I didn’t see any change. The 6attitude I received from others might have changed, 7but my ability to do my job stayed the same. 8 Q. In general, because as Ms 9Richards correctly notes, we are not really 10reviewing the BOI except as it had an impact on 11further investigations. Can you tell me what you 12noticed in terms of the Fynes’ reactions to the BOI 13while it was ongoing and as to whether there were 14any ongoing questions or were there any new 15concerns being thrown up by what was happening at 16the BOI? 17 A. Initially with their initial 18interview with Major Parlee they were very positive 19about the BOI because Major Parlee had assured them 20that what they wanted out of the board of inquiry 21was the same thing he wanted, which was to 22ascertain facts and work toward creating a 23situation that will prevent future events of this 24nature from occurring. The Fynes became very 25disillusioned with the process of the board of
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 86 2 3 4 5 1inquiry. At least, that was relayed to me by the 2Fynes based on the fact that Shaun is a seasoned 3investigator, a seasoned questioner, understands 4what a board of inquiry process should entail, and 5was aware of witnesses that were not called that 6were necessary and fundamental to a resolution of 7finding the truth in the situation. 8 That didn’t occur, so they were 9very disillusioned by the end results of the board 10of inquiry to the point where they felt the board 11of inquiry, Major Parlee, had preset the end 12result. 13 Q. What about the issue of 14getting the results of the board of inquiry and 15being briefed on that? Were you involved in those 16efforts? 17 A. Not at all. 18 Q. Let me shift our emphasis to 19an issue that was emerging at precisely the same 20time and that is the issue of the suicide note. 21Can you tell me when the issue of the suicide note 22was brought to your attention and by whom? 23 A. It was brought to my 24attention by Shaun. 25 Q. Yes.
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 87 2 3 4 5 1 A. It was either via e-mail or 2by phone. It would have been -- I don’t have a 3time, but it was 10 months later, nine months 4later. I’m not sure of the exact time. 5 Q. If you look at tab 99, which 6is in the second book, we are looking at May 2009. 7The board of inquiry, we know, convened in late 8winter 2009. 9 A. So we are talking 14 months 10later. 11 Q. Fourteen months. 12 A. Okay. Yes, that’s about 13right. 14 Q. I believe that’s how you were 15informed by the Fynes. Did you take any part in 16any of the subsequent discussions about the suicide 17note? 18 A. Just in the way it had 19affected them. 20 Q. Yes. 21 A. They stated that had they 22known about it initially, it would have had a 23definite impact on the way they conducted the 24funeral. 25 Q. There was a parallel issue or
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 88 2 3 4 5 1a subsequent issue also involving documents and 2access to documents, and that was Mr. and Mrs. 3Fynes’ attempts to get access to the sudden death 4investigation report that had been compiled by the 5NIS in 2008. Were you part of any of those 6discussions? 7 A. Absolutely not. 8 Q. Was it usual or unusual for 9an assisting officer to be attached to a family for 10a period of longer than a year? 11 A. I would say it’s unique. But 12as others have said, it’s probably one of the most 13complicated cases you could ever run -- hope to 14avoid. 15 Q. I have formed the impression 16that at some point there was a parallel structure 17being put into place to help the Fynes with some of 18their issues and problems and that was through -- 19and I have forgotten the name of the agency. It’s 20an aspect of casualty support. 21 A. Casualties and care, yes, you 22are correct. In situations where you have an 23assisting officer and it goes beyond a certain 24point or there is a requirement for disengagement 25of the assisting officer, which there was in my
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 89 2 3 4 5 1case, then it gets turned over to the casualty 2collection individual. Norma -- 3 Q. McLeod. 4 A. -- McLeod was the 5representative. We had had a discussion about that 6disengagement because of the length of time I had 7been the AO. I met with her and discussed the case 8with her. I provided her with the documentation 9and I arranged a meeting with the Fynes for her. I 10believe I was originally supposed to be there at 11that meeting also. Something came up and I could 12not attend. I forget what that was, but it seemed, 13in discussion with Shaun and Sheila afterwards, 14that it was okay, that they found Norma acceptable. 15 Q. We have taken your 16participation down into 2009 and on a number of 17issues where I have asked you, you have said that 18you had limited or no involvement in the resolution 19of those issues. Your disengagement didn’t occur 20until 2010, some time in the spring, I believe. 21What was your role then from around the time of the 22board of inquiry through to your disengagement? 23 A. Absolutely nothing. 24 Q. Am I correct in assuming that 25round about the time the board of inquiry was
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 90 2 3 4 5 1wrapping up would be the last time that you had any 2active participation rather than simply being in 3name the assisting officer? 4 A. I would go a month past the 5board of inquiry and after that it curtailed 6itself. 7 Q. During that time were there 8any other issues that arose that you were involved 9in that you tried to help the Fynes to resolve? 10 A. None that I can recall. 11 Q. None that I can think of 12either, which is why I asked you the question. 13 My final questions to you are 14about your own contacts with any of the 15investigations that have been conducted. Were you 16contacted and interviewed by the Military Police in 17connection with any of their investigations? 18 A. Yes. I was contacted by 19Major Dandurand and Master Corporal Mitchell who 20were conducting the NS -- it was a Military Police 21investigation. 22 Q. Yes. Can you tell us what 23your impressions were as to the topics that were 24covered with you? 25 A. They were concerned about the
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 91 2 3 4 5 1events, much the same as this inquiry. It was 2fairly general in nature, but they specifically 3bore down on the suicide note and the effect that 4had and what they had done to correct the 5situation. 6 Q. Were you also contacted in 7connected with Major Chenette’s investigation? 8 A. Yes. That was by phone. He 9sent me out sample questions. I answered the 10questions and then we had a conversation to confirm 11if he had any more points on that. 12 Q. Have you retained the 13questions that were sent to you? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Finally, were you involved in 16any way with the board of inquiry? 17 A. In no way whatsoever. 18 MR. FREIMAN: Give me one second 19because I am sure I have forgotten something. 20 Major Parkinson, we have gone 21around a couple of issues, up and down one side and 22the other. You have been very patient and I thank 23you very much for your assistance. 24 THE CHAIRPERSON: I don’t know how 25long either side would be, so we probably should
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 92 2 3 4 5 1break for lunch. 2 MS RICHARDS: I don’t think I 3would be very long. I don’t want to pressure, but 4I think in the witness’s interest we can finish -- 5 COL (RET’D) DRAPEAU: I would like 6to break for lunch. 7 MS RICHARDS: Okay. 8 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. 9 We have a second witness this 10afternoon. 11 MR. FREIMAN: He should be 12considerably shorter than Major Parkinson. 13 THE CHAIRPERSON: All right. We 14will break until 1:30. 15--- Luncheon recess at 12:15 p.m. 16--- Upon resuming at 1:34 p.m. 17 THE CHAIRPERSON: Before we start, 18Colonel Drapeau, I understand Mr. Freiman has two 19questions. 20 MR. FREIMAN: 21 Q. Very quickly, Major 22Parkinson. I forgot to discuss with you just a 23couple of additional issues. 24 We discussed an e-mail exchange 25with Major Hamilton-Brown about in which you raised
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 93 2 3 4 5 1some views and there was some pushback. That 2wasn't the only time that you were reminded of what 3others thought was a proper way to discharge your 4duties. Am I right about that? 5 A. Not so much a reminder of 6that. We are going back to the beginning, are we? 7 Q. We are going back to the 8spring of 2008 and the fall of 2008. Actually, 9what I was referring to, if you look at tab 75, I 10want to get your perspective on this since we have 11you here. 12 This, again, is an exchange of 13e-mails with Madam Touchette on a number of issues. 14These were ones about the common law status and 15some of the paperwork surrounding it. 16 I just want to draw your attention 17to page 1 of 5, there is a forwarded e-mail, but 18the main one is from Suzanne Touchette to you with 19numerous carbon copies. 20 Madame Touchette writes: 21 "Major Parkinson, As 22 determined by various 23 e-mails, this case is 24 sensitive and complex. It is 25 clear that there are
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 94 2 3 4 5 1 disagreements between various 2 stakeholders involved in this 3 estate and that is why, in my 4 opinion, an assisting officer 5 must exercise great prudence 6 and avoid being draw into any 7 dispute. It may be advisable 8 for the executor to retain 9 legal counsel as the NOK have 10 already done, however, it is 11 not our place to provide 12 legal advise." 13 And then she goes on to talk about 14the role of her office, which is to administer 15service estates, and then she goes with the 16following: 17 "For future reference, and 18 because this is such a 19 sensitive issue, I need to 20 inform you that all e-mail 21 communications between us 22 must remain confidential and 23 should not be forwarded to 24 the family/next of kin. You 25 can brief the next of kin or
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 95 2 3 4 5 1 the executor with issues in 2 relation to the service 3 estate, but since neither you 4 nor I am a lawyer, you should 5 avoid being drawn into 6 discussions concerning the 7 legal merits of the will or 8 SDB issues." 9 And there is a strong 10recommendation to be in touch with Major Fowler if 11there is any legal information that's necessary. 12Finally, Madam Touchette says: 13 "Finally, I recommend that 14 you exercise caution 15 regarding how closely you 16 become involved in issues 17 presented by the decedent's 18 family. Your role of 19 assisting officer is limited 20 to informing them of the 21 applicable military 22 regulations and procedures, 23 and does not extend to 24 providing advise to the 25 family. Neither does your
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 96 2 3 4 5 1 role extend to presenting 2 representations by the family 3 relating to any disputes with 4 other stakeholders." 5 You remember this e-mail. 6 A. Yes, I do. 7 Q. I would like to get your 8perspective on what the issues were and what Madam 9Touchette was referring to in your response and 10reactions thereto. 11 A. The specific thing that she 12was referring to, and I cannot recall it, but it 13was to do with more of a discussion between 14different people as opposed to something 15substantive, and I was cc'd on it and I would cc 16the Fynes on almost on all correspondence. 17 Q. And you were told that was 18not a good idea. 19 A. By her. 20 Q. Yes. And I believe you were 21told the same subsequently by someone else, not to 22forward any cc's of communications with the chain 23of command. 24 A. Exactly. 25 Q. Did you take that to heart?
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 97 2 3 4 5 1 A. I took it under advisement. 2It made perfect sense to me that she was correct in 3the sense that I shouldn't be perhaps forwarding 4unresolved issues that are still in a discussion 5stage to the Fynes, and that made perfect sense to 6me not to do that. Why create conflict where it's 7not required, so in some cases, I ceased doing 8that. 9 If it's germane or there was a 10solid point of fact that the Fynes needed to know, 11I would e-mail them and carry on doing that. 12 Q. Did you feel at all inhibited 13by this sort of communication by Madam Touchette? 14 A. No. 15 Q. So let me draw your attention 16to another piece of communication. You will find 17that at tab 123. This is an early communication 18with Norma McLeod, and you will recall from before 19lunch that Ms McLeod occupied a director's 20position, I think it was, with an agency whose name 21I can never member but was an element of casualty 22support, and she would eventually take over this 23matter from you for at least a limited number of 24time. 25 This is much earlier than that.
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 98 2 3 4 5 1It's an e-mail to Mr. Finlay who at the time was 2the casualty support person who is dealing with the 3Fynes and it's a request that she forward to you 4some of her own observations. Here is what she 5writes. It's the very first e-mail right at the 6top: 7 "Bob, Thank you for the 8 update. This is terrible. 9 It seems to be going from bad 10 to worse. Please look into 11 the MFF --" 12 And I'm not sure what that is. 13Oh, it's a family fund that was devoted to taking 14care of the needs of grieving families. 15 "-- to see if they will 16 reimburse the trip from BC to 17 Edmonton. When you talk to 18 Major Parkinson, you may want 19 to gently remind him that 20 they are grieving parents. 21 Maybe he could bend a little 22 and use his first name with 23 them, instead of the formal 24 Major title he is using. In 25 addition, he has got to watch
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 99 2 3 4 5 1 what information he sends and 2 how he is articulating things 3 so this does not get any 4 worse." 5 Did Mr. Finlay ever have a 6conversation with you where he gently reminded you 7of these things? 8 A. If he did, I would have 9reminded him my first name was the same as Stuart, 10and that wasn't a good idea to use that first name 11with the Fynes. They were much more comfortable 12calling me Major Parkinson. 13 Q. What about the remonstrance 14to you to watch what you say and how you say it so 15you don't make matters worse? 16 A. He never passed that on. 17 Q. Did you feel at all inhibited 18in what you were doing by this sort of 19communication, what you did hear of it? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Thank you. I apologize for 22not finishing with this when I should have. 23 THE CHAIRPERSON: That's fine. 24Colonel Drapeau? 25CROSS-EXAMINATION BY COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU:
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 100 2 3 4 5 1 Q. Thank you, Major Parkinson. 2Good afternoon to you. In the days following your 3appointment as the assisting officer, you testified 4you had a discussion with the commanding officer 5and the adjutant about a suicide watch. 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Who was the commanding 8officer? 9 A. Colonel Demers. 10 Q. Were these discussion done by 11phone or in person? 12 A. By phone. 13 Q. Were they done by the two of 14them together, or did you have a conversation with 15Colonel Demers and a conversation with Captain 16Lubiniecki? 17 A. The latter. They were 18separated. I assume they were separated and not in 19the same room because I talk with one and then the 20other. 21 Q. So two separate 22conversations. 23 A. Separate conversations. 24 Q. Any nuances between the two, 25what Colonel Demers would have told you about
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 101 2 3 4 5 1suicide watch and what Captain Lubiniecki would 2tell you, significant? 3 A. Nothing significant comes to 4my mind. It was basically the same story from 5both. 6 Q. So there was no doubt in your 7listening to deduce two conversations there was a 8suicide watch. 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. At the funeral, you said that 11the commanding officer, Colonel Demers, said Major 12Jared denied the existence of a suicide watch. 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. How did this come to pass? 15Did they take you into separate rooms, or did they 16sit you down or... 17 A. In Jared's case, I was at the 18mess, the officer's mess. 19 Q. And two separate 20conversations? Did you have a separate 21conversation with Demers and... 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Over the same subject. 24 A. Yes. The one that I'm 25talking about is with Major Jared. That was at the
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 102 2 3 4 5 1mess and I happened to mention the suicide watch 2and he mentioned to me that nothing like that ever 3existed. 4 Q. And you said... 5 A. I said, "Okay." That's a 6little contrary to what I heard out of the mouths 7of babes, but okay. I went back and it came up in 8conversation with Captain Lubiniecki for sure. I 9can't be 100 per cent sure I talked about that with 10Colonel Demers, but I know I talked about it with 11Captain Lubiniecki and he told me point blank that 12there was no such thing as a suicide watch that 13ever existed. I went, "Okay. Wasn't I at the 14other end of the phone with you?" And he just went 15off and... 16 Q. And that left you with the 17impression of what? 18 A. Yes, I know I have been 19screwed over. 20 Q. In your testimony, you 21testified that you had a discussion with Major 22Jared in the mess after the funeral in which you 23discussed many things. That's what you said more 24or less. 25 A. Yes.
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 103 2 3 4 5 1 Q. You recited, to be precise, 2four issues that you discussed with him. First, 3the friends of Rebecca's being on the committee of 4adjustment. 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. The second issue of the 7suicide watch we just covered. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. The status of Rebecca. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And then the fourth one, 12there is the status of Rebecca in relation to 13Captain Lubiniecki. You said that. What did you 14mean? 15 A. Do you have a document you 16can refer me to? 17 Q. No. That's earlier this 18morning. I don't have the transcript, but unless 19my notes are mistaken. You made a separation 20between the status of Rebecca and the status of 21Rebecca in relation to Captain Lubiniecki. 22 A. Relation to Captain 23Lubiniecki. It's not ringing any bells. 24 Q. Okay. You mentioned later on 25--
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 104 2 3 4 5 1 THE CHAIRPERSON: Sorry. That's 2what you said this morning. It was not reference 3to any documents. Colonel Drapeau has that 4accurate. 5 COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: 6 Q. So my question is: Is there 7a relationship? Was that what you were alluding 8to? 9 A. No, I wasn't referring to 10Lubiniecki and Rebecca having a relationship. That 11never existed. 12 Q. Because it caught my eye. 13 A. Okay. 14 Q. You mentioned that Padre 15Hubbard received Stu's medical and he turned it 16over to the committee of adjustment. 17 A. This is what I was told by 18the Fynes. 19 Q. Do you know if this was the 20Canadian Forces medical file or hospital files 21or... 22 A. I am not sure what files they 23were. 24 Q. And you would not know who 25turned it over to the padre.
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 105 2 3 4 5 1 A. No, I would not. 2 Q. Kind of unusual, wouldn't it 3be? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. The existence of a suicide 6note were communicated to the Fynes and you learned 7from them that they had been so informed by 8somebody at DND, so you were by-pass. 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. How did that make you feel? 11 A. Not overly-- I had no 12feelings toward it. I just thought it was odd that 13they would find out that length of time past the 14point. 15 Q. Did it happen before when you 16were by-passed, the thing that you know? 17 A. I was never given any clear 18indication of those documents that were found 19behind the filing cabinet. 20 Q. Right. 21 A. I always got that information 22-- 23 Q. Second-hand. 24 A. Second-hand, third-hand and 25long after the fact, certainly not fourdays when
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 106 2 3 4 5 1they were found. 2 Q. How much time in the given 3week, particularly first two or four months of your 4duties as assisting officer, how much time would 5you devote to that task? 6 A. It was a descending scale 7from an awful lot to almost an 8-hour a day, 812-hour a day going down to four or five, up and 9again when the funeral occurred, and then decreased 10substantially after that. 11 Q. So you devoted a lot of time, 12significant amount of time. 13 A. Yes, significant. 14 Q. At tab 74, we have been there 15this morning, there is an e-mail, and you can turn 16to it if you wish, but you will know that one 17inside out. It's an e-mail that you sent to Major 18Scott MacDonald from your unit, I presume. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. In which, I quote: 21 "You'll understand if after 22 10 months of being deceived, 23 misled, and intentionally 24 marginalized a various 25 points, they have no faith
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 107 2 3 4 5 1 left in the system." 2 Are these your words? 3 A. These are my words describing 4their feelings, yes. 5 Q. As far as you are concerned, 6they were as accurate as you can make it at the 7time? 8 A. Those words accurately 9reflected what was going on in their mind. 10 Q. Knowing what you know now, 11four years passed, would you change that? Would 12you improve them? Would you modify them? 13 A. Not oneword. 14 Q. You said that you were not 15contacted by the board of inquiry to testify. 16 A. That's correct. 17 Q. Should you? 18 A. Not for me to say. 19 Q. But would you have had 20something to add? 21 A. Again, unknown. 22 Q. The e-mail we just saw from 23Madam Touchette at tab 75, I think it is. Is Madam 24Touchette in your chain of command? 25 A. No, she is not.
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 108 2 3 4 5 1 Q. She was in uniform? 2 A. I have no idea. I have never 3met the woman. 4 Q. She is giving you directions, 5is she not? 6 A. There she was, yes-- no, I 7put it down as a strong advisement. 8 Q. Lecturing. 9 A. Yes, well... 10 Q. As the assisting officer, you 11reported to the commanding officer of the LdSH. 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. But effectively, you work 14through on a day to day basis with Captain 15Lubiniecki, the adjutant. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. How often, say, during the 18course of the first year would you have been in 19touch with Colonel Demers to discuss assisting 20officer issues? 21 A. Twice, once on my initial 22phone call to him, and once when I visited there. 23 Q. So most, the vast majority of 24your dealings is with Captain Lubiniecki. 25 A. Exactly, yes.
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 109 2 3 4 5 1 Q. Mostly by phone and e-mails? 2 A. Phone and e-mails, yes. 3 Q. Were there any disagreement 4of significance along the way? 5 A. Nothing per se that we argued 6over. Certainly -- I can't say yes to that. No, I 7don't think -- 8 Q. You had a nice working 9relationship, or was it tense or was it... 10 A. Initially, it got tenser. It 11was more tense leading just up to the funeral, and 12then thereafter, it was much more tense than 13previous. 14 Q. Did this change story over 15something as significant as a suicide watch that 16officer -- that was your contact point-- 17 A. Based on my experience, yes. 18 Q. Did that affect in any way 19your relationship, your trust, advice you were 20receiving or providing? 21 A. No, because in the long run, 22I was just the conduit. I would take information 23from one, pass it to the other and vice versa. 24 Q. Based on your experience, 25which I hope you never have to redo again, is there
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 110 2 3 4 5 1anything of significance that you would want to 2change in the duty of an assisting officer and the 3direction given to him? What were you missing then 4that you wish you had? 5 A. From my personal perspective, 6I thought I was well qualified to do it. Being a 7major, I was the right rank. I'm sure if I was a 8lieutenant or a junior captain, my relationship 9with Captain Lubiniecki would have been different 10and it would have been detrimental 11 Q. So you didn't feel inhibited 12certainly not by your rank or your position or 13geographical locations or whatever. You could do 14the job. 15 A. If he was upset with me, he 16didn't have the option to be truthful with me about 17that. 18 Q. Do you know, and it's a 19personal question, but given the passage of time 20and given your experience, I'm quite impressed with 21your resume this morning. You go back in the 22service as long as I have, so I have some 23appreciation for this. You think you could have 24done the same job had you been a captain? 25 A. If it was at the same point
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 111 2 3 4 5 1in time of my career, yes. 2 Q. With your experience and so 3on. 4 A. With my experience because 5I'm a honey badger. 6 Q. Would a lieutenant have done 7the job? 8 A. No. 9 Q. A second lieutenant? 10 A. Definitely not. 11 Q. That brings me to your 12association with the assisting officer of Rebecca, 13and you had regular dealings with them, did you 14not? 15 A. I did. 16 Q. How did he come across? He 17could only provide what he had in terms of 18experience and knowledge and so on. Was that an 19impediment of trying to get the job done? 20 A. I think it was in his case 21because of his lack of experience. 22 Q. How much experience did he 23have? 24 A. I wasn't sure, but he didn't 25appear to me to be much more than 24, 25. I can't
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 112 2 3 4 5 1definitively say because I didn't know his age, and 2I certainly didn't know his experience level 3whether he had operational tours, but being a 4second lieutenant, I would assume he did not 5because he wasn't fully qualified, so he would have 6had limited amount of military experience. I 7wasn't sure on this education background whether he 8was a military college or whether he was a DEO, so 9I wasn't aware of that. 10 Q. DEO, direct entry officer. 11 A. Direct entry officer. 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: Colonel Drapeau, 13you are going to have to help me as to how the 14other AO and his qualifications are going to impact 15the Military Police allegations. 16 COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: It may not, 17but the two of them were doing similar jobs, 18similar duties, similar assignment, reporting the 19same chain, and at a distance, accomplishing the 20same, ultimately, the same function. 21 Major Parkinson would have worked 22closely, and certainly there is evidence in here, 23with Captain Brown. I just wanted to find out 24whether or not in fact that was an impediment or 25the two of them were on the same level in being
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 113 2 3 4 5 1able to synchronize their work. 2 THE CHAIRPERSON: I appreciate 3that. I guess my point is I just want to make sure 4-- I wanted to let it go a little bit, but the -- 5 COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: I'm done on 6that issue. 7 THE CHAIRPERSON: Just to close it 8off, the choosing of the AOs and the CF is really 9not in our park here. 10 COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: I'm not 11questioning that. 12 Q. Mr. and Mrs. Fynes received 13the Sacrifice Medal. 14 A. Okay. 15 Q. And you were informed of that 16at one stage. 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And you raised this morning 19during your testimony that the name of Stuart was 20not shown on -- if I remember the name correctly-- 21the Land Force Western Area, Wall of Remembrance. 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. Aren't the two connected? 24 A. I don't know. 25 Q. Am I not right in saying that
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 114 2 3 4 5 1if you are receiving a Sacrifice Medal because you 2are the parents of a member whose death is 3attributable to the military service -- 4 MS RICHARDS: Mr. Chairman, I'm 5not sure what this has to do with the Military 6police investigations either. It's neither the 7subject of any of the investigation. I can't see 8how it's related. 9 COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: It was 10raised during the examination-in-chief. I just 11wanted to clarify a point on the Wall of 12Remembrance. 13 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Go ahead, 14just ask it, and then -- 15 COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: There is a 16lot of other issues that is not dealing with the 17NIS. 18 MS RICHARDS: I agree. 19 THE WITNESS: I'm not particularly 20familiar with the requirements. 21 COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: 22 Q. You got involved in the issue 23of him having his name. 24 A. Only from the perspective of 25passage of information. I knew that Shaun and
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 115 2 3 4 5 1Sheila would have wanted their son's name on that 2wall and I forwarded that desire up the chain of 3command. 4 Q. So you acted as a conduit, 5nothing more. 6 A. Exactly. 7 Q. That's all my questions. 8Thank you very much. 9 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms Richards? 10CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS RICHARDS: 11 Q. I just have a couple of brief 12questions. In your testimony, you were asked a lot 13of questions and you gave a lot of information 14about your understanding of Stuart and Rebecca's 15relationship. Where did your information come from 16to form that understanding? 17 A. A lot of it came from Sheila 18Fynes, and some of it came from Captain Lubiniecki, 19some from Major Jared and some from Second 20Lieutenant Brown. 21 Q. You mentioned Captain 22Lubiniecki and Major Jared. I believe in your 23testimony you said you had spoken to them about the 24status of Rebecca's and Stuart's relationship. 25 A. Yes.
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 116 2 3 4 5 1 Q. What did they tell you? 2 A. That Rebecca and Stuart had 3separated about a week prior to his suicide, that 4they were no longer living together, that they were 5occupying separate domiciles. 6 Q. Did they tell you anything 7about whether or not they are formerly dissolved 8their common law relationship? 9 A. They did not. 10 Q. They did not tell you 11anything? 12 A. They didn't tell me anything 13about that. 14 Q. Do you remember being 15interviewed by the Military Police? 16 A. I do. 17 Q. If I can ask you to turn to 18tab 98. First of all, do you recognize these 19transcripts? 20 A. I do. 21 Q. Have you had a chance to 22review them? 23 A. I have. 24 Q. Major Parkinson, there has 25been an allegation raised that these transcripts do
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 117 2 3 4 5 1not reflect the actual interview that you had with 2the Military Police, and more specifically, that 3there are potentially gaps missing from your 4interview with the Military Police. Have you 5reviewed them? Do you have any reason to believe 6these aren't accurate? 7 A. I have no reason to believe 8they are not accurate. From the best of my 9recollection, there is a point where the recording 10tape ran out and started again. I can't say with 11100 per cent certainty that there wasn't a 12conversation carried on after that. 13 I know at the end of the 14transcripts, there was an ongoing -- at the end of 15the interview, there was more discussion, but that 16was of a military nature based absolutely nothing 17to do with the investigation. 18 And there was one point where 19Major -- 20 Q. Dandurand? 21 A. -- Dandurand and Master 22Corporal Mitchell had a discussion in private, 23which I wasn't privy to. 24 Q. If I could ask you to turn to 25page 27, 28. Just to set the stage, you don't need
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 118 2 3 4 5 1to turn back, but this interview according to the 2front page took place on March18, 2010. Does that 3sound about right? 4 A. It sounds correct. 5 Q. You would agree with me that 6at that time, your recollection of the events 7surrounding the funeral were likely a little more 8fresh than they are today? 9 A. Yes, I would say that. 10 Q. So I just wanted to draw your 11attention to an exchange that you had starting at 12the bottom of page 27. 13 A. Okay. 14 Q. You say here: 15 "I -- I remember saying, 16 'Well, how is she the primary 17 next of kin when they're 18 separated?', and he said, 19 'Well, they hadn't renounced 20 their separation legally.' It 21 was through the legal -- I 22 guess you have to make a 23 Declaration. 24 Right. 25 -- of Separation, and that
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 119 2 3 4 5 1 wasn't done. 2 Yeah. Okay. 3 That's the way it came across 4 to me. 5 Okay. Anybody other than 6 Lubiniecki that you talked to 7 about that? 8 I don't think I talked to him 9 initially, but it would be 10 Major Jared who was the OC of 11 the Adam Company at some 12 point or another. 13 Right. 14 And it was basically much the 15 similar story there." (As 16 read) 17 Does that refresh your memory at 18all? 19 A. It does. 20 Q. As I read that, the 21information that you provided to the National 22Investigation Service was that you were informed by 23both Captain Lubiniecki at the time and Major Jared 24that there had been no formal efforts made to 25renounce their common law status.
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 120 2 3 4 5 1 A. That's what I was informed. 2 Q. If I could ask you to turn 3back to tab 71. Under 3b, this is the section that 4Commission counsel took you to and it reflects 5under point three a briefing that you received from 6your commanding officer? 7 A. Correct. 8 Q. Did you know at that point in 9time whether or not the commanding officer had met 10with the Fynes already? 11 A. I am unsure if at that point 12he had met with them. 13 Q. I just wanted to take you 14down under 3b. Commission counsel had drawn your 15attention to some information and asked you where 16you got it from. 17 When I read it, it appears to me 18that this is information that could only have come 19from the Fynes, and I'm wondering if you know 20whether this was information the CO had gotten from 21the Fynes. 22 A. It could well be. It could 23well be when he and Padre Steele went for the 24initial meeting with the Fynes to inform them of 25their son's demise.
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 121 2 3 4 5 1 Q. I'm going to ask you to flip 2back to tab 70 now. If I could ask you to look at 3pages 205 and 206. I'm first looking at the very 4top of 205, and as I understand it, this is the end 5of your notes from the actual day of the funeral. 6 Three says "Evergreen provided 7family with limo for viewing, funeral and 8reception." Four, "Viewing, funeral and reception 9went as planned." 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. So from your perspective, 12were there any issues at the funeral? 13 A. At the funeral itself? 14 Q. Yes. 15 A. No. 16 Q. Mrs. Fynes has testified that 17when arrived at the funeral, people didn't know 18that she was coming or that her family was 19arriving, and I wonder if you have any comment or 20if that was your observation as well. 21 A. It wasn't my observation. 22 Q. Just on that same page, if 23you could go down towards the bottom of the page 24under April1, 2008. Point two, there is a note 25here that says "Info'd Suzanne Touchette of
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 122 2 3 4 5 1possible litigation over Rebecca's status as 2spouse." What was that about? 3 A. Yes. Sheila Fynes did not 4believe that Rebecca met the criteria as a common 5law spouse. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. I'm not 100 per cent sure if 8that's litigation over that particular status or 9whether it was over the discrepancies of the proof 10of death, so I'm not sure which one of the two it 11would be. 12 Q. Just on that same vein, if I 13could get you to go over to the next page on 14April4, 2008. There is a reference there that: 15 "Visited family. Discussed 16 Alberta Inter-dependant 17 Partner Agreement, status of 18 SDB, and their desire that 19 Rebecca's status be that of 20 an ex-girlfriend only and no 21 further assistance to her on 22 the part of the military." 23 What was that discussion about? 24 A. Pretty much there is stated. 25They didn't believe that, based on the Alberta
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 123 2 3 4 5 1Inter-dependant Partner Agreement, Rebecca had 2legal status as a primary next of kin. 3 Q. Did they ask you to ask the 4military to cease providing any assistance to 5Rebecca? 6 A. Yes, that's why I sent these 7notes. 8 Q. And you did in fact do that? 9 A. I did. 10 Q. Do you know at that time 11whether or not they had already consulted a lawyer 12about litigation? 13 A. No. 14 Q. You don't know. 15 A. I don't know. 16 Q. Finally, there has been a lot 17of discussion about the level of input that the 18Fynes had in the funeral planning. You were asked 19some questions this morning back and forth and you 20gave some testimony about concerns about who had 21the ultimate say in the process. Do you recall 22that? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. I just want to ask you 25questions about input because there is a point
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 124 2 3 4 5 1where you state that the fact that they received 2all they requested, it's immaterial to the issue of 3why she -- which is Rebecca -- had the authority. 4 In your experience, did the Fynes 5receive all that they requested in terms of the 6planning for the funeral? 7 A. No. The reason I say "no" is 8because if they got all that they wanted, the flag 9at the end of the ceremony wouldn't be given to 10Rebecca, it would have been given to Sheila. 11 Q. Is that the only thing? 12 A. I suspect there are others in 13there, but I can't recall what they were. 14 Q. We have heard testimony here 15before that there were daily consultation between 16the assisting officers regarding decisions and 17opinions for the funeral to try and coordinate 18between the two. Was that your experience? 19 A. Yes. We were trying to 20create a common ground so that the funeral could go 21forward. 22 Q. Thank you. Those are all my 23questions. 24 THE CHAIRPERSON: Any re-exam? 25 Q. I just have a question in
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 125 2 3 4 5 1case I missed it, Major. Obviously you had a 2tremendous amount of involvement with the Fynes 3also around the funeral. You went to the funeral? 4 A. I did. 5 Q. Did you know that the Fynes 6were going? 7 A. Yes, I went with them. 8 Q. You went with them? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. As part of the duties of the 11AO, did you have communication that you would be 12economic to the funeral? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. In terms of Mrs. Fynes 15feeling-- I think she said -- like a second class 16citizen, that might have been the words, or 17something to that effect because there wasn't a 18seat for her. Would you not have any involvement 19in that as AO? You seem to be involved in 20everything else to ensure that they would have had 21-- did you sit with Mr. and Mrs. Fynes? 22 A. I did not. I believe they 23were up in the front row. 24 Q. Second row, I think, she 25said.
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 126 2 3 4 5 1 A. Second row. 2 Q. As part of all of the 3arrangements, would that be something that the AO 4would do? 5 A. It could have been, but it 6could have just has easily been overlooked. The 7specific seating, might not-- I don't recall 8discussing it with Second Lieutenant Brown. 9 Q. Or anybody else? 10 A. Or anybody else. 11 Q. Where did you sit? 12 A. I believe I stood at the back 13because it was standing -- 14 Q. Yes, as I understand it was. 15Okay. Colonel Drapeau? 16FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: 17 Q. Did you have anything to do 18with arranging either the funeral or reception, any 19responsibilities? 20 A. Only passage of information 21back and forth. 22 Q. But you weren't scheduling or 23organizing... 24 A. I was organizing none of it, 25no. That was all on the LdSH. It was their show.
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 127 2 3 4 5 1They organized the service at the chapel and they 2organized the reception afterward in the hall 3there. 4 Q. You were in attendance. 5 A. I was in attendance. 6 Q. And there to assist Mr. and 7Mrs. Fynes as required. 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. Thank you. 10 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Major, I 11want to thank you for your attendance and your 12testimony. You are older than some of the 13regiments in terms of your service, that is. 14 THE WITNESS: Feel that way. 15 THE CHAIRPERSON: You have a 16lengthy career and I am sure that just judging from 17your testimony and your mannerisms and some of your 18phraseology, if I will use that word, I'm sure that 19they know that you are at the regiment when you are 20there. I want to thank you very much for your 21attendance and your help to the Fynes and the 22hearing. 23 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much. 24 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do we need any 25time between witnesses, or can we go right into it?
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 128 2 3 4 5 1The Registrar is just going to swear the witness. 2Maybe we will take a quick health break. 3--- Recess taken at 2:15 p.m. 4--- Upon resuming at 2:19 p.m. 5SWORN: CAPTAIN ADAM BROWN 6 THE CHAIRPERSON: Welcome, 7Captain. 8 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 9EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. FREIMAN: 10 Q. Captain, I wonder by way of 11introduction, we can start with a discussion of 12your background in the Canadian Forces. Can you 13tell us the history of your training and your 14various assignments? 15 A. Okay. Name is Captain Adam 16Brown. I joined the CF in 2001 where I was 17accepted to the Royal Military College of Canada. 18I attended that college for fiveyears, one year in 19Saint Jean-sur-Richelieu, and four years in 20Kingston. 21 During the summers, I would attend 22training to become an armoured officer. 2006, I 23graduated from RMC, and then I attended the armour 24school in Gagetown to complete my armoured officer 25training. Afterwards, I was posted to Lord
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 129 2 3 4 5 1Strathcona's Horse in October 2007. 2 I was at that unit for roughly two 3and a half, threeyears. During that time I was the 4regimental council. I was a troop leader, a tank 5troop leader where I deployed overseas to 6Afghanistan. 7 Once I returned 2009, late 2009, 8maybe around October November, I stuck around the 9regiment for a little bit, did safety staff and a 10couple of other odd jobs until I was posted to CFB 11Gagetown with the armour school as an instructor, 12so I instructed at Gagetown for about a year until 13July of 2011. 14 At that time, I left to CF or the 15regular force. I component transferred to the 16reserve force in Vancouver, BC, with the British 17Columbia regiment, and since that time, I have been 18the adjutant at that unit. 19 Q. All right. Thank you very 20much for that background. For our purposes, the 21relevant time period is the late winter and spring 22through the summer of 2008. 23 It's my understanding that some 24time shortly following the suicide of Corporal 25Langridge, you were approached and informed that
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 130 2 3 4 5 1you would be appointed as an assisting officer. 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Just by way of a bit of 4background, you were a member of the Lord 5Strathcona's Horse at that point, is that correct? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And your posting was in the 8same squadron as Corporal Langridge? 9 A. I believe so. I was in 10headquarters squadron. 11 Q. Just in terms of some of the 12other people that we have heard evidence from and 13we have seen reference to in the documents, 14Captain, as he then was, now Major Lubiniecki, was 15also in your chain of command, is that correct? 16 A. No, he was not. He's the 17adjutant, so he deals with the CO. He is in 18regiment headquarters group. Within the task of 19being an AO, I did have to report to him, yes. 20 Q. Okay. That's what I just 21wanted to clarify. We know that the position of AO 22was meant to report to the adjutant. I wasn't 23clear whether you had another reporting 24relationship to him as well because you were in 25headquarters.
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 131 2 3 4 5 1 A. Well, the adjutant is 2responsible for junior officers, so that may be 3another aspect, but that's just an informal thing 4for the mentoring of junior officers. 5 Q. This isn't really of any 6relevance, I think, to the matters that we are 7dealing with, but there was a series of questions 8earlier today, and I just wanted to ask you so as 9to round out those questions. 10 At the time that you were 11appointed assisting officer, you were a second 12lieutenant? 13 A. Yes, that is correct. 14 Q. That is one of the more 15junior grades in the officers' core as I understand 16it. 17 A. It's a junior grade within 18the officers' core, yes. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Did you feel in any way 21inhibited in the performance of your duties by the 22fact that you were a junior officer and that Major 23Parkinson who was working as assisting officer for 24the Fynes was a superior officer? 25 A. No, not really.
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 132 2 3 4 5 1 Q. Did you feel any inhibition 2by the fact that you were reporting to Captain 3Lubiniecki who in other circumstances with whom you 4had a reporting relationship? 5 A. Did I feel inhibited? 6 Q. Did you feel inhibited in the 7performance of your duties? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Let's talk about those 10duties. What was your understanding of the role 11and function of an assisting officer? 12 A. My understanding at that time 13was that I was the link between Rebecca and the 14military side, so it was basically oneperson to 15deal with versus maybe 10 different people 16approaching her at different times. 17 It was to give some type of common 18person that they know and they can deal with and 19then I could talk to talk to certain people within 20the military and introduce certain people so she 21had an understanding and there was some trust 22relationship there. 23 Q. Did you have any opinion as 24to the reason why you were selected to become an 25assisting officer to Ms Hamilton-Tree?
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 133 2 3 4 5 1 A. No. You would have to ask my 2bosses at the time. 3 Q. Did you have any briefings-- 4we know that before you can become an assisting 5officer, you have to do the AO course, and I assume 6you did the AO course? 7 A. I don't believe it is a 8necessary thing to have completed, but, yes, I did 9receive an AO course prior to being assigned AO. 10 Q. I would like to know whether 11there was a supplement to any training that you got 12from the course, if you had a briefing from any 13members of the chain of command as to what your 14role would be and how to discharge that role? 15 A. There could be times where 16they offered me advice or certain things that I 17might have to look at because I had to report to 18the adjutant usually daily on things, and he may 19have questions about certain aspects, and it would 20go through me and we would go that way. 21 He mentioned to talk to some of 22the other AOs that were around. There was one 23other at that time because of Trooper Hayakaze's 24funeral, so... 25 Q. We have heard some evidence
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 134 2 3 4 5 1about a possible meeting between you and Major 2Jared just about the time that you were appointed 3an AO. Do you remember any such conversation? 4 A. No, I don't remember anyone 5that had conversation with Major Jared in 6particular. I know the adjutant talked to me to 7give me the task, give me some background. 8 The regimental 2 i/c, who was my 9boss, he talked to me for a bit in reference to -- 10that I was doing the task and those sorts of 11things. 12 Q. You were in the same 13squadron, although in vastly different roles, as 14Corporal Langridge. Were you acquainted with him? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Were you given a briefing by 17anyone to familiarize yourself with the details of 18what had happened, what possible issues might be 19arising? 20 A. The adjutant gave me a 21briefing about Corporal Langridge, just some of the 22generic information, name, birth date, those sorts 23of things, family dynamic, those sorts of things. 24 Q. Again, in the past few weeks, 25we have been hearing a lot about a number of issues
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 135 2 3 4 5 1that became prominent in the months leading to 2Corporal Langridge's death. 3 I'm just wondering how much of a 4briefing you had, so let me ask you specifically. 5Do you remember what you were told about the family 6dynamics in Corporal Langridge's family? 7 A. No. It was just that he was 8common law. I know that's one thing. And I 9believe he also mentioned that he had some drug 10issues. 11 Q. I know it has been a long 12time, but sitting here today, do you remember 13anything else from that briefing? 14 A. Not anything else. Just, you 15know, he joined the regiment at this time or joined 16the CF at this time, this is where he has gone for 17overseas deployments, those sort of things. 18 Q. Let me just address a quick 19issue of documentation. This morning we heard some 20testimony from Major Parkinson and Major Parkinson 21had retained a very compendious file of e-mails and 22communications which we were able to use to some 23advantage to refresh his memory. Did you compile a 24similar portfolio of documents and e-mails? 25 A. The e-mails I had, I sent off
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 136 2 3 4 5 1through my civ e-mail account. All my military 2ones were wiped because of going overseas and 3moving from different computers in different bases. 4 Q. When you did a hand-off, and 5I understand you did do a hand-off to a successor 6AO, or at least for a period of time, would you 7have transferred any documentary information to the 8new AO? 9 A. I don't believe I had the 10e-mail chains and stuff that I gave him. I know I 11would have talked to him in his office and gave him 12the binder of information I had at that time. 13 Q. That binder, I know we have 14had some discussions about that. What's your 15recollection of what was in the binder and what's 16your recollection of what happened to that binder? 17 A. Some of the information was 18similar to what's in here. There is one document 19that's quite similar that I had as the covering 20page on that binder. I had a notepad where I took 21my notes just, for example, if there were questions 22she was asking that I had to talk to the chain of 23command about, those sort of things. I believe, 24ultimately, that got lost within a move, so I don't 25know where it is right now.
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 137 2 3 4 5 1 Q. Just so that everyone is on 2the same page, we are going to use some documents 3today, but many of those documents are documents 4that have been collected by other people where 5fortunately your name is mentioned as a recipient 6of an e-mail. 7 I would like, in that connection, 8to start off with a discussion about the casualty 9coordination meeting that you attended. Do you 10remember that meeting? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. What's your recollection as 13to what the intended purpose of that meeting was to 14be? 15 A. The intended purpose being to 16gather all the key players at that time together 17and go through the process of what was going to 18happen and what needed to happen. It was 19introducing people to know who they were and what 20role they played. 21 Q. I have been remiss. I didn't 22ask one further question in terms of the 23documentation. One of the documents that we find 24in the collection of documents in front of you is a 25transcript of an interview you had with the
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 138 2 3 4 5 1National Investigation Service. In preparation for 2this hearing, have you had an opportunity to review 3that transcript? 4 A. Yes, I have. 5 Q. Was that transcript helpful 6to you in refreshing your memory? 7 A. Not over the discussions we 8have. It didn't bring out any new points that I 9had. 10 Q. I might as well ask because 11my understanding is that some of the facts relating 12to the events in issue have become a little cloudy 13for you over the passage of time. 14 I would like to ask you whether in 15your view the material that is in your interview 16expresses your understanding to the best of your 17recollection at the time that you had the 18interview. 19 A. At that time, some of the 20information there was what I believed, and at that 21time, some of the information I probably went a bit 22too far and was stepping out of my role of things 23that I didn't really know that I thought it may be 24understood, but I realized that I don't, so... 25 Q. We will probably ask you most
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 139 2 3 4 5 1of the questions that will allow you to make those 2corrections or changes. 3 Can we start, then, with the 4assistance of tab 15. This is one set of e-mails. 5The first one is at tab 14, and I'm not asking you 6to turn it up, but just to let you know, tab 14 has 7the agenda for this meeting and the plans for what 8was to be accomplished. 9 Tab 15 is a memorandum compiled by 10Major Cadieu to summarize the decisions taken and 11the directions given in the commanding officer's 12name as a result of the casualty coordination 13meeting. 14 This is a good source, but 15independent of the resource, what's your 16recollection of how the meeting was conducted and 17what the main issues in the meeting were? 18 A. Just one sec. Okay. 19 Q. You have given us a headline 20for what the meeting was about. Let's go into the 21body of the article now. What was your 22understanding of the important issues that needed 23to be addressed and how they were to be addressed? 24 A. Just according to this 25e-mail, I would say those were all the important
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 140 2 3 4 5 1points they hit on, and the regimental 2 i/c looks 2like he sent this out. Within my aspect of it, 3some of these things didn't pertain to me per se. 4 Q. Let me just ask you if you 5can recall any discussions because we know that 6some of these points continue to be of interest and 7continue to need addressing over the period of 8time. 9 Under admin, we will skip the 10first couple lines, but the third line was: 11 "Confirm status of will and 12 any other admin potentially 13 designating NOK that we have 14 not yet seen." 15 That's assigned to the padre, to 16the assisting officer, and in this case, it would 17be you because you were the one who was present, 18and to the adjutant. 19 Do you have a recollection as to 20what the issue with the will or with any other 21admin -- I take it admin to mean administrative 22document potentially designating next of kin. What 23that was all about? 24 A. I know there was some 25discussion in reference to the next of kins and
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 141 2 3 4 5 1those sort of things. My involvement was very 2little basically because I was just going to be 3told what was the direction at the end of the 4meeting, so I don't particularly remember the 5discussions that were on it or the topic that were 6addressed on it at this time. 7 Q. If you will excuse me for one 8minute, I'm just going to find a document that I 9need. Let's look at tab 29. 10 Tab 29 is a summary of the 11evidence that you gave in the course of your 12interview with the NIS. I would like to review it 13with you, and if you do find that there are 14statements in here that you now think are incorrect 15or go beyond what you actually knew, I would like 16to hear what those statements are. 17 Let's start on the second page 18with point a., and the narrative is: 19 "Captain Brown explained his 20 --" 21 And I'm not sure. I think is 22recollection. 23 "-- that he had been 24 attending the funeral of 25 another LdSH (RC) member on
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 142 2 3 4 5 1 Saturday. During the 2 reception, several members of 3 the unit had to leave 4 suddenly. It was later 5 learned that Captain 6 Langridge had died. Later 7 that day, he was contacted by 8 Captain Lubiniecki. During 9 conversation, Captain Brown 10 learned he had been assigned 11 to act as the AO for Ms 12 Hamilton-Tree. The following 13 day he spoke with Major Jared 14 who provided him with more 15 information regarding the 16 situation." 17 Let me just stop there. 18 A. Yes, I don't think it's Major 19Jared because he didn't have any involvement with 20me, like, on that day, because the second day as 21being the Sunday, it was Major Cadieu, so I think 22they took the wrong name in there. 23 Q. "Captain Brown continued by 24 stating that on the Monday, 25 he attended a meeting with
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 143 2 3 4 5 1 several individuals." 2 Would that have been the casualty 3coordination meeting? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. "At that meeting, it was 6 determined that Ms 7 Hamilton-Tree would be making 8 the decisions regarding the 9 funeral arrangements." 10 Do you remember that decision 11being made? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Do you remember who the 14decision maker was? 15 A. No. At the end of the 16meeting, I came out that Ms Hamilton-Tree was to 17make decisions on the funeral if it came down to 18the point where there was sticking point between 19two parties, but the two AOs would try to work 20together and make it work as best as possible. 21 Q. Point b is about a caution 22that was administered to you, and I take it this is 23because the investigation was into the possibility 24of criminal service offences that have been 25committed and there had been an allegation made
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 144 2 3 4 5 1that you might have been a person who had committed 2a service offence and you were cautioned on that 3fact. 4 A. I believe it was cautioned 5because I was at that meeting, of my understanding. 6 Q. So after the caution: 7 "Captain Brown continued to 8 explain his involvement in 9 the situation. At the 10 meeting, several issues were 11 discussed. These included 12 the fact that the will was 13 missing." 14 Do you remember a discussion of a 15missing will? 16 A. I don't particularly 17remember. I know there was discussion on some of 18this paperwork, but the administrative officer at 19the time, Captain Douglas, knew more of those 20particular. 21 Q. And then there is a sentence 22I don't really understand and maybe you can give 23some clarity to it: 24 "And that because of the PEN 25 form indicating Mr. Fynes as
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 145 2 3 4 5 1 the primary next of kin and 2 the common law status." 3 A. I think underneath the PEN 4form, the emergency notification form, it was Mr. 5Fynes designated as number one on that, and then on 6his MPRR, he had common law status with Ms 7Hamilton-Tree. 8 Q. MPRR is the permanent record 9kept -- 10 A. Military personnel -- it's 11like a CV or a resume on an individual. 12 Q. Right. In fact, we may look 13at this later. We have Corporal Langridge's MPRR 14as of the date of his death at tab 18. 15 We then read: 16 "Captain Brown stated that 17 the --" 18 And there is a redaction. 19 Point d: 20 "Captain Brown stated that 21 the following people were at 22 the meeting: Major Cadieu, 23 Major Jared, Captain 24 Lubiniecki --" 25 And then there is another
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 146 2 3 4 5 1deletion. 2 "-- and himself. He stated 3 there were other people in 4 attendance but he cannot 5 recall who. Captain Brown 6 relayed that the meeting 7 began with a short power 8 point presentation with basic 9 information about Corporal 10 Langridge, who the involved 11 people were and who in the 12 Regiment was tasked with 13 what. The members present at 14 the meeting discussed the 15 missing will and the 16 potential conflict arising 17 from the fact that the PEN 18 indicated Mr. Fynes as the 19 primary next of kin but 20 Corporal Langridge was in a 21 common law relationship with 22 Ms Hmailton-Tree. Captain 23 Brown could not recall 24 specifics of the conversation 25 as he had received his
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 147 2 3 4 5 1 tasking and that the 2 remainder did not pertain to 3 him. He does recall that --" 4 But we are not allowed to see what 5you recall. 6 "-- Captain Brown stated --" 7 And we don't know what's under 8that. 9 "When asked if anyone 10 requested an explanation of 11 the decision, Captain Brown 12 stated that no one had." 13 I am going to function on an 14assumption that I'm going to invite you to share 15with me that the decision being talked about was a 16decision as to how to reconcile the difference 17between the fact that the personal emergency 18notification form named Mr. Fynes as primary and 19Mrs. Fynes as the secondary next of kin and the 20fact that from the military's point of view, there 21was a common law relationship with Ms 22Hamilton-Tree. 23 I'm going to ask you whether you 24recall now-- 25 MS McLAINE: I'm sorry, but I have
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 148 2 3 4 5 1to jump in there. My friend understands very well 2what is behind those boxes. He understands the 3reasons for the deletions. It has been very clear 4that it's solicitor-client privileged, and these 5types of questions should not be put to the 6witness. 7 MR. FREIMAN: I disagree entirely. 8We haven't heard the question that I'm going to be 9putting in order to see whether it has-- 10 MS McLAINE: We have heard where 11you are going though. 12 MR. FREIMAN: Why don't you wait 13until I get there, and then you can tell me whether 14I have gone to a good destination or a bad one. 15 THE CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead and let 16me know the questions. 17 MR. FREIMAN: 18 Q. Do you recall now any 19explanation given for why a decision was made to 20name Ms Hamilton-Tree? 21 MS McLAINE: Again, this goes to 22the legal advice. 23 MR. FREIMAN: It's a question that 24can be answered with a "yes" or a "no." There is 25no legal advice in the answer, "Yes, I do recall,"
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 149 2 3 4 5 1and there is no legal advice in the answer, "No, I 2don't recall." 3 MS McLAINE: With respect, that 4was not a "yes" or a "no" question. 5 MR. FREIMAN: 6 Q. I said do you now recall 7whether there was any explanation given for the 8decision to name Ms Hamilton-Tree as the person who 9would be next of kin? 10 THE CHAIRPERSON: That's a "yes" 11or a "no." You can answer the question. 12 THE WITNESS: Can you just repeat 13it quickly, please? 14 MR. FREIMAN: 15 Q. Do you recall whether there 16was any explanation given for the decision to name 17Ms Hamilton-Tree as next of kin? 18 A. No. 19 Q. See. Nothing happened. 20Under f: 21 "Master Corporal Mitchell 22 asked Captain Brown what 23 personal information he was 24 provided about Corporal 25 Langridge. Captain Brown was
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 150 2 3 4 5 1 informed that Corporal 2 Langridge had committed 3 suicide. He had a history of 4 drug and alcohol abuse. It 5 was reported to him that 6 Corporal Langridge was in a 7 common law relationship." 8 Those are some of the matters that 9you told us about earlier. You then go on, or it's 10reported: 11 "Captain Brown also reported 12 that his attendance at the 13 funeral home with Ms 14 Hamilton-Tree was to ensure 15 she was not promised anything 16 and that the military policy 17 and entitlements were 18 understood and followed." 19 I'm going to skip forward from the 20casualty coordination meeting for a moment to 21discuss with you this issue that was raised in your 22interview, which was your attendance at the funeral 23home. 24 What was your understanding at the 25time of your role in assisting Ms Hamilton-Tree who
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 151 2 3 4 5 1we see had just been named the next of kin in her 2trips to the funeral home? 3 A. My role? 4 Q. Yes. 5 A. My role to attend, basically 6the military had a certain policy of what was 7covered and funding pots and those sort of things 8and some of the administrative paperwork that had 9to happen in order to get those monies paid, so I 10had to attend for that reason and make sure that it 11didn't, let's say, upsell or say things were 12covered that were not actually covered. 13 Outside of that is just being at 14their meetings, and then I guess a bit of a support 15as well. 16 Q. My understanding is that 17there were at least two and perhaps three trips to 18the funeral home. I know that your memory isn't 19precise on the topic, so we are going to have to do 20the best we can. 21 Let's talk about the first trip. 22Do you remember who may have accompanied you and Ms 23Hamilton-Tree to the funeral home for the first 24trip? 25 A. Yes. So it was myself,
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 152 2 3 4 5 1Rebecca, and then Corporal Rohmer. 2 Q. What was Corporal Rohmer's 3role? 4 A. Corporal Rohmer was there 5more for support. She asked if he could go because 6he knew Corporal Langridge as well -- he was a 7friend of Corporal Langridge. So if there were 8some questions or something like that, she could 9confer with him, but he really just stayed back and 10was there more for the support role. 11 Q. Do you remember what the 12purpose of the visit was, what the topics were that 13were to be discussed? 14 A. I think with the first one 15was more just starting the process, introducing her 16to the funeral director, gathering some 17information, and then kind of moving on from there 18to carry on to move up towards the funeral. 19 Q. Do you remember whether there 20were any specific decisions that had to be made at 21that first visit? 22 A. I don't recall at this time, 23no. 24 Q. You mentioned that there was 25an exchange or there was gathering of information.
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 153 2 3 4 5 1Let's break it down. Do you remember what sort of 2information might have been gathered from Ms 3Hamilton-Tree? 4 A. I think it was generic, her 5name, address, phone number, those sort of things, 6for the file. 7 Q. Do you remember what 8information, if any, was gathered from you? 9 A. No. I was more there for 10just to overwatch, as I said, so I don't recall me 11given any information besides maybe talk to the 12funeral director about funding wise, what is 13covered by the military. 14 Q. Had you been given guidelines 15and directions as to what the military would pay 16and how much it would pay? 17 A. Some of that was covered 18within the AO book that I had. Also, that funeral 19home had dealt with Trooper Hayakaze's funeral, so 20they were somewhat aware of what was covered, let's 21say. 22 Q. Do you have any information 23as to how this particular funeral home, Evergreen, 24was chosen? 25 A. I received some suggestions
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 154 2 3 4 5 1from the adjutant of people who had dealt with 2military funerals before, but ultimately, it was 3her choice. She just basically had to tell me 4which funeral home she wanted to go to, and then I 5would contact them to book the appointment. 6 Q. There has been an allegation 7that we have heard that there was a funeral home 8that had as it were a monopoly on funerals with the 9military and this was it. Was that your 10understanding? 11 A. No, because the list I had 12had probably about three or four different funeral 13homes on it. 14 Q. Did Corporal Rohmer give any 15information? 16 A. I don't recall. I don't 17think he would have, but I don't recall in 18particular. 19 Q. Let's talk about the second 20trip. This would probably happen around about the 2120th. Do you have any recollections as to who 22besides you and Ms Hamilton-Tree attended? 23 A. I think for the other 24appointments, it was just myself and Rebecca. 25 Q. May I just stop you for a
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 155 2 3 4 5 1minute. We have heard some evidence from Padre 2Hubbard that it was his recollection that he had 3attended on one trip to the funeral home. That's 4not your recollection though, is it? 5 A. I don't remember him 6attending at that time, unless it was maybe the 7viewing, but I don't remember him being there in 8particular, but it could have happened. 9 Q. Nothing turns on it Captain 10Brown. Can I ask you, then, if you recall what 11happened on the second visit? 12 A. I don't know if there was two 13or three. That's sort of bit fuzzy. I know 14ultimately an obituary had to be done up for him 15and a casket had to be picked. 16 Q. Do you remember how the 17process of picking the casket unfolded? 18 A. Me and Rebecca went to the 19funeral home. They had their samples or caskets 20there. And then there were certain monies for the 21military that they would cover, so we looked at 22those. There was a list of three that she picked 23out of maybe like four or five. 24 Then I sent out an e-mail to the 25AO, Major Parkinson to say, "Hey, these are the
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 156 2 3 4 5 1three that she was looking. She kind of liked. 2What did the parents think?" They picked one that 3they liked and that's ultimately the one we went 4with. 5 Q. Do you remember anything else 6about your visit to the funeral home? 7 A. No, not in particular. 8 Q. Let's move back, then, to the 9casualty coordination meeting for a moment. I 10would like to look at tab 15 again. I would like 11to look at the heading called "Family," and it look 12like 13 "Sp," and I'm not sure what that's 14an abbreviation for. 15 A. Family support. 16 Q. Okay. There are three 17points: 18 "Confirm with family when the 19 name of the deceased can be 20 released to the media." 21 And you had a role in that. 22 Next: 23 "Confirm family wishes for 24 the funeral and discuss with 25 both sides of the family
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 157 2 3 4 5 1 involvement of Corporal 2 Hillier." 3 First of all, when we are talking 4about confirm family wishes for the funeral, what 5was your understanding of how decisions were to be 6made and whose wishes were to be listened to? 7 A. Ultimately, the two AOs, 8myself and Major Parkinson went back and forth on 9the decision points that we had to make in 10reference to the funeral. 11 Ultimately, we would hear from 12both sides or, you know, say Rebecca mentioned 13something to me, then I would send it to the AO in 14Victoria and he would check with the family in 15reference to that decision. If they didn't like 16that or they had a different suggestion, then it 17would come back that way. We would discuss back 18and forth in reference to those multiple decision 19points. 20 Q. We have heard some evidence 21already that at least as a matter of theory, the 22person who is appointed or recognized as next of 23kin will have the ultimate say and can give 24directions for what is to happen with respect to a 25funeral. In your experience, is that how it played
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 158 2 3 4 5 1out, that Rebecca had the decision making 2authority? 3 A. That's what I got from the 4meeting, that ultimately if it came down to a 5sticking point, Ms Hamilton-Tree would have the 6decision, but we were told to make it work between 7both parties and do the best job we could. 8 Q. You have told us a little bit 9about how you went about doing that, and I'm done 10with tab 13 by the way. 11 I'm just going to ask you in 12general. We looked this morning at some of the 13back and forth about arrangements, but from your 14point of view, were there any sticking points in 15the discussions for putting together the funeral? 16 A. There were discussions on 17multiple issues, but in the end, I think it got 18ironed out and both parties seemed to be happy or 19okay with the decisions that were made. 20 I don't recall any point where we 21had two parties that were pretty extreme on both 22sides and they wanted their way. I don't recall 23one at this time. 24 Q. Along those lines, up to this 25point, and that is, up to the date of the funeral,
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 159 2 3 4 5 1did you notice any tensions or bad feelings as 2between Ms Hamilton-Tree and the rest of the 3family? 4 A. They had some pretty heated 5telephone conversations that I was told. I wasn't 6a witness to any of those because they were in 7Victoria and Rebecca was in Edmonton. 8 THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry. I 9just missed the word. They had some conversation. 10 THE WITNESS: Heated conversation. 11 THE CHAIRPERSON: Heated. Okay. 12 THE WITNESS: So both sides were 13emotional and something might have been said that 14some other party didn't agree with and it just kind 15of sparked from there. 16 That's when the two AOs, we just 17asked them kind of at the time to relay stuff in 18reference to the funeral through us and we would 19talk together because we were a bit more on a level 20ground, let's say. 21 MR. FREIMAN: 22 Q. Right. I would like to show 23you a couple of e-mails that pre-date the funeral 24and ask you YOUR recollection about them. Let's 25look at tab 34. This is from Major Parkinson to
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 160 2 3 4 5 1you. It reads: 2 "Adam, From the family. If 3 there are bills to be paid 4 and the estate is now 5 responsible, please advise 6 her that she does not have to 7 pay nor should she for any of 8 Stew's bills. Any joint 9 payment requirements can be 10 worked out. As adjutant 11 pointed out, the executor can 12 have his estate declared 13 bankrupt if it will impose a 14 financial burden on the 15 family." 16 Do you remember these discussions? 17 A. No. I know Rebecca mentioned 18some stuff about he had financial issues because, I 19guess, they were join on some things, but it was 20kind of out of my realm to get involved with 21because that was for the estate to settle on that 22behalf, not per se for the military to settle for 23them. 24 Q. Along those lines, there were 25also issues specifically related to payments such
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 161 2 3 4 5 1as car payments and ownership of a car. Do you 2remember any discussions about that? 3 A. Yes. I think they were join 4on a jeep or something like that where there was 5payments, but I can't say for sure. 6 Q. So let me, then, ask you 7about one further issue that you may have some 8recollection of that occurred prior to the funeral, 9and this is an issue regarding the taking of the 10inventory and who was around to do the inventory. 11Do you remember that issue? 12 A. That was mostly through the 13RQ. I think in discussions afterwards through 14interviews or those sort of things, or discussions 15with you, there is the mention of issues with 16inventory taking, but at the time, I was more 17concentrated on dealing with the funeral 18arrangements and stock taking wasn't my task. 19 Q. You were present at the 20funeral. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Did you observe anything 23notable, remarkable or untoward happening? 24 A. It seemed like a normal 25funeral.
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 162 2 3 4 5 1 Q. Did you get any impressions 2as to whether the relationship was good, bad or 3indifferent as between Ms Hamilton-Tree and the 4Fynes? 5 A. I was more concentrated on 6the running of the funeral instead of seeing the 7dynamics that were at play. I believe afterwards, 8it was mentioned to me through Rebecca and such 9that AI got a bit of a cold shoulder per se from 10the Fynes,” so... 11 Q. You were also in attendance 12with Ms Hamilton-Tree and I believe her mother when 13your travelled to Victoria for the actual 14interment. 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. On that occasion, did you 17notice anything in terms of the relationship? 18 A. I think it was more the same, 19just a cold shoulder, but I can't say for sure 20because I never -- I wasn't really concentrating on 21that side of it, so that's personal feelings not 22really what I was there to assess per se. 23 Q. Let me go back to the funeral 24itself. There was an issue, and we saw this 25morning emerging almost immediately, and we have
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 163 2 3 4 5 1seen it again on the minutes of the casualty 2coordination meeting, and that is, the presence and 3role of Corporal Jason Hillier. Do you remember 4that issue and what the discussions and resolutions 5of that issue were? 6 A. Yes. The family did not 7particularly like Corporal Hillier. I believe they 8blamed him for some of his issues that he had. At 9first, they didn't want him at the funeral, and 10then it was agreed upon that, yes, he would be able 11to attend, but he was to keep his distance away 12from the Fynes. 13 Q. There is one issue that I 14forgot to raise with you in the pre-funeral 15planning stage. I just want you to open up tab 3. 16The bottom page is your e-mail to Major Parkinson, 17and you write: 18 "Hey, This is Adam, the AO 19 from Edmonton. I'm assuming 20 you are not going to be in 21 the office so I sent this to 22 your civ e-mail. I just 23 wanted you to run this 24 obituary pass the parents. 25 Anything can be added or
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 164 2 3 4 5 1 taken away and just need the 2 correct spelling of names." 3 You then attach a draft of an 4obituary. Can you tell me what the intended role 5of the Fynes with respect to things like the 6obituary? 7 A. This is one obituary that we 8worked on with the funeral director because it had 9to be published in the paper, so it was letting the 10Fynes see it, see if they wanted to add anything or 11change anything or if there was anything things 12that were incorrect with it before it went to the 13paper. 14 Q. While we are dealing with 15pre-funeral matters, there is another e-mail that I 16would like to direct your attention to. It 17appears, I believe, at tab 10. 18 This is an e-mail chain which 19means that the first e-mail is listed last and then 20we move backward. First, there is a note from 21Captain Lubiniecki to a number of recipients 22including you -- I don't think Major Parkinson is 23involved yet -- that gives some specific decisions 24that have been made as of Monday the 17th. 25 And then in response, over the
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 165 2 3 4 5 1page, that is, in the first page, you send an 2e-mail on Tuesday the 18th of March, early in the 3morning with updated information, some answers to 4questions about how the funeral is to be conducted, 5details about the headstone, the pallbearers, the 6carriers, and then at the bottom of the page, there 7is a number of questions that you address. 8 I'm going to read them all, but 9I'm only interested in a couple of them: 10 "Is Corporal Hillier's 11 transportation paid for? 12 Would Rebecca's 13 transportation be paid for 14 the interment in Victoria and 15 what about guests? Was a 16 note left behind at the scene 17 of the incident? What is the 18 release date of the body? 19 Rebecca wants a copy of the 20 common law paperwork?" 21 And you sign it "Cheers, A.J. 22Brown." 23 There is only two that I would 24like to talk about. The first is: Was a note left 25behind at the scene of the incident? What time was
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 166 2 3 4 5 1it that led you to ask this question? 2 A. That was asked to me by 3Rebecca, so I didn't know, so I asked my chain of 4command. 5 Q. Did you get an answer to that 6question? 7 A. No. Well, they did not know. 8 Q. It's important to us, I 9think, to differentiate whether there was simply no 10answer or whether the answer was, "Sorry. We don't 11know." 12 A. I think it was because -- I 13did not have an understanding there was any note 14left behind. 15 Q. Again, sitting here today, do 16you have a recollection of whether you got an 17answer that said, "We don't know," or whether this 18simply was a point that was never answered. 19 A. I think they would have made 20their best to answer the question, but they 21probably approached higher and went to their chain, 22but ultimately, I was told that -- I did not know 23if there was a note or not. 24 THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm confused. 25So I don't know what the answer is to the question.
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 167 2 3 4 5 1 THE WITNESS: I did not know of 2any note, so that's all I could tell Rebecca at 3that time. 4 MR. FREIMAN: 5 Q. But then you addressed a very 6specific unambiguous question as one of the five 7questions you addressed to Major Lubiniecki with 8the intention, of course, that it would be passed 9up to whoever could answer. 10 I think what the Chair is asking, 11and I think he is correct, is whether you can give 12a specific answer. Choice A is you did not get a 13response to this. Choice B is you got a response 14orally or otherwise that no one knew. And Choice C 15is you don't remember. 16 A. I don't remember. I don't 17remember was in the context. 18 Q. Finally, the fifth point is 19Rebecca wants a copy of the common law paperwork. 20Do you remember whether she was given a copy of the 21common law paperwork? 22 A. I can't remember at the time. 23 Q. I would like to move forward 24a little bit. We know that at some point, the 25whole issue of Rebecca's status, whether she was
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 168 2 3 4 5 1the primary next of kin or was not the primary next 2of kin or next or next of kin with or without the 3primary and whether she had an entitlement to 4statutory benefits or did not have an entitlement 5to statutory benefits, all those issues were raised 6by Mr. and Mrs. Fynes. Do you have a recollection 7of when they were first raised when you first 8became aware of that issue? 9 A. My task was to deal with 10Rebecca, so it was questions and concerns that came 11from her. Their AO in Victoria would have fielded 12those questions and dealt with those. 13 Q. In or about September of 142008, my understanding is that the Fynes met with a 15member of the casualty support office, whose name I 16can never remember, in Victoria, and that was a Mr. 17Finlay, and they put before Finlay a number of 18question, or in fact, I think they originally put 19them in front of a Jane Byers and she would have 20forward them to you. 21 In any event, Ms Buyers e-mail -- 22the content of the e-mail was forwarded by Mr. 23Finlay to you on the 21st of August of 2008. I'm 24just going to read you the questions, and then I 25want to discuss with you your answers that you gave
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 169 2 3 4 5 1to these questions. 2 MS RICHARDS: Can you give us the 3tab? 4 MR. FREIMAN: I'm sorry. It's tab 531. 6 Q. Again, we have to go to the 7end and we are looking at the second last page in 8that regard at the bottom of the page where it says 9from Jane Byers. I will just go by numbers. She 10says: 11 "This is about Sheila Fynes. 12 I may not get them all in the 13 right order as to priority. 14 1. Death certificate - there 15 are four different ones and 16 only one is registered. It 17 is registered with wrong 18 information, i.e., place of 19 birth and they have to get a 20 lawyer in Alberta to change 21 it. 22 2. The step father Shaun is 23 the next of kin. These 24 papers were found naming him 25 in June until then it was a
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 170 2 3 4 5 1 friend who was the next of 2 kin. These and other papers 3 were found at base in 4 Edmonton behind a filing 5 cabinet in June!!! 6 3. Stuart had changed all his 7 paper work when he and his 8 girlfriend broke up (which 9 was before his death). 10 4. The parents are left with 11 all the bills, while the ex 12 girlfriend was paid the 13 insurance money. 14 5. They don't know where his 15 personal things are now. 16 After the funeral in 17 Edmonton, someone I think she 18 said a major gave them his 19 sunglasses and something else 20 for his handicapped brother. 21 At this time, they did see 22 some of his stuff. 23 6. They feel that they have 24 been lied to by everyone. 25 7. Stuart was on a suicide
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 171 2 3 4 5 1 watch at the base and was 2 allowed to go back to his 3 room without anyone with him. 4 This his mother had brought 5 to someone's attention before 6 he killed himself and was 7 told that someone would be 8 with him at all times. 9 8. When they got to the 10 funeral home, no one knew who 11 they were as the girlfriend 12 had told everyone that Stuart 13 didn't have a family. Sheila 14 didn't even have a say in the 15 funeral but did have her son 16 buried in Victoria. 17 9. The headstone is one of 18 their choice and the price 19 has doubled since they picked 20 it out. 21 10. They were told that DND 22 or someone would pay for the 23 headstone and then they were 24 told no. 25 It ends with:
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 172 2 3 4 5 1 "This family is a mess. I 2 really feel that someone 3 needs to sit down and listen 4 to them." 5 I don't want to imply that these 610points are accurate either in fact or an accurate 7transcription of what Mr. and Mrs. Fynes may have 8had on their minds at the time, but these were the 9questions that were addressed to you, so I would 10like you to turn to the third page, which is your 11response. The first two deals with issues in which 12you weren't, I believe. 13 Let's look at your response: 14 "Just a quick situation on 15 this case. Corporal 16 Langridge committed suicide 17 on the grounds of FB 18 Edmonton. Corporal Langridge 19 had a common law wife 20 (Rebecca) in Edmonton and 21 they had common law status 22 from the 7 December 07 (MPRR 23 input date." 24 And that's referring to the 25document that's at tab 18, which we don't need to
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 173 2 3 4 5 1go to but does in fact mention common law. 2 "They were currently living 3 apart due to drug issues and 4 possibly going to dissolve 5 their common law status." 6 Let me just stop there. What was 7the source of your information for this sentence, 8AThey were currently living apart due to drug 9issues and possibly going to dissolve their common 10law status."? 11 A. I think the first part, they 12were living apart due to drug issues is from 13Rebecca and her understanding is that they were on 14a break from each other at that time until he 15corrected his issues, but after that fact, I don't 16know what was going to happen, and I think more the 17possibility of going to dissolve, that was after 18the fact through rumour mills and people talking. 19 Q. So we are separating, then, 20what you knew from Ms Hamilton-Tree, which is that 21they were currently living apart because of drug 22issues and which you believe you knew or you were 23told through -- what you have called -- the rumour 24mill about possible break up. The next sentence 25is:
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 174 2 3 4 5 1 "His family lived in 2 Victoria. Two AOs assigned 3 Lieutenant Brown for Rebecca 4 and Major Parkinson for the 5 family." 6 That's totally uncontroversial. 7 "Issues, no will on members 8 file." 9 Can you explain that to us? 10 A. No. It's no will on the 11member's file. 12 Q. I should ask you right now. 13No, we will deal with it later in point three. 14"Common law status stood at time of death." Do you 15remember what the basis for that statement was? 16 A. That's the MPRR input date, 7 17December 07. 18 Q. PEN, primary, Shaun Fynes. 19And that's from the PEN form or from the MPRR? 20 A. That's from the PEN form, 21personal emergency notification form. 22 Q. SDB, Rebecca Hamilton-Tree. 23 A. Supplementary death benefits. 24 Q. Where does that information 25come from?
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 175 2 3 4 5 1 A. It's a file on their 2paperwork. Ultimately, the SDB got paid out to 3her. 4 Q. Next is "Old will found in 5member's belonging during stock taking - Sheila 6Fynes." I take it that Sheila Fynes means that she 7was the beneficiary? 8 A. Yes, I believe so. 9 Q. Is it your recollection that 10there was no will located until a search was made 11of Corporal Langridge's belongings and that's where 12they found an old will? 13 A. Can't say for sure because I 14never had really much dealings with the finding of 15that will. I know we looked at some other 16information where they found it behind a filing 17cabinet and such. That was after some time, but 18during the weekly and up to the funeral, I didn't 19have much dealings with it. 20 Q. I was going to wait to deal 21with the issue what was found behind the filing 22cabinet, but I would like probably to deal with it 23now. 24 Did you at any time when you were 25the AO have information given to you that four new
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 176 2 3 4 5 1documents had been found behind a filing cabinet? 2 A. Not that I recall up to the 3point of the funeral. I think maybe after the fact 4it came out that maybe some information was found, 5but during the time, I don't recall being told that 6things were found. 7 Q. You said during the time of 8the funeral. I asked you during the time you 9functioned as AO. Do you recall being told either 10officially or by Rebecca or by anyone else that 11documents had been found behind a filing cabinet? 12 A. I don't recall, no. 13 Q. Do you recall ever being 14informed of a change in who was the executor of the 15will that was considered to be valid by the 16Canadian Forces? 17 A. I believe the executor was a 18friend from high school. 19 Q. Did anyone at any time tell 20you that that designation had been changed, to your 21recollection? 22 A. No, not to my recollection. 23 Q. Let's look at some of the 24specifics. "Death certificate, the information was 25taken from his military file," that's the MPRR.
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 177 2 3 4 5 1 On what basis were you able to 2make the statement that the information that had 3been put on the death certificate had its origin in 4the MPRR? 5 A. The common law status and 6such, name, birth date, those sort of things, but 7ultimately, it would have been in discussion, I 8think, with the funeral director because they -- 9 Q. That's the question that I 10wanted to ask you because it's not totally clear 11from this answer whether your view at the time was 12that the information that Evergreen Funeral Home 13got for the death certificate was as a result of 14information taken from the military file or whether 15the information that was obtained by ever Evergreen 16Funeral Home was as a result of information 17provided by Ms Hamilton-Tree or someone else to the 18funeral director directly. 19 A. I don't recall given 20information myself to the funeral director because 21that was getting involved in some of the things 22that I did not think that I was supposed to be 23involved. When I was there, I was overwatching and 24such. 25 Q. Right, but that doesn't
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 178 2 3 4 5 1really answer the question, then, of why you 2thought that the information on the death 3certificate was linked to the member's military 4file. 5 A. It could have been just a 6quick reply ultimately to this e-mail because I 7know this is in between my training for 8pre-deployment, so if I didn't get back to him, 9they probably wouldn't hear from me for 10threemonths, so it was a very quick e-mail to get 11some of the things answered. 12 Q. Your next sentence is: 13 "I know they were not happy 14 about his status on the death 15 certificate (common law v. 16 single). I know they wanted 17 to change this. At that 18 time, there was no mention of 19 an issue with the place of 20 birth. It is the first time 21 I have head of it and there 22 was no mentions of mistakes 23 on the copies given to 24 Rebecca." 25 When you say I know they were not
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 179 2 3 4 5 1happy about his status on the death certificate -- 2 A. That's the family. 3 Q. That's the family. How did 4you know that they weren't happy? 5 A. There had been some 6discussion about the actual recognition of common 7law within Alberta. I think there was some talk 8that they required some legal advice, or a lawyer 9for some legal advice, so I think that's where that 10came from. 11 Q. Did you have any discussions 12with Ms Hamilton-Tree about that same issue in the 13context of claims that were being made by others, 14or was that not something you discussed with her? 15 A. In relation to common law 16status? 17 Q. Yes. This appears to be a 18direct questioning of the appropriateness of her 19common law status, so I was wondering whether you 20had discussions with her about that and about how 21she could get more information or whether you gave 22her any advice at all about pursuing this matter. 23 A. I think her opinion on the 24matter was that they were common law and on a 25break. I don't know if that's answering your
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 180 2 3 4 5 1question or not. 2 Q. I guess my question was 3whether you did anything to advise her further than 4to listen to what her perspective on it was. Was 5there any further assistance that she required in 6the face of an allegation that she was not properly 7designated as common law or as next of kin or is 8the recipient of SDB? 9 A. I don't recall. There might 10have been some discussion about, AHey, they are 11talking about this on the recognition of the common 12law status.” 13 Q. Dealing with the issue of 14death certificate, we have heard some evidence 15about the possibility that someone that the funeral 16director was intercepted in delivering some copies 17of the death certificates. Is that an issue with 18which you are familiar or have any information 19about? 20 A. I remember there was some 21discussion in previous interviews about that. I 22don't particularly remember myself stopping him 23because he was probably one of the few people I -- 24he was probably one of the few people he dealt from 25the military, it was me, so I don't really believe
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 181 2 3 4 5 1that was me in that case. 2 Ultimately, I was dealing with the 3conduct of the reception afterwards and I think 4that's where the handover occurred, their pamphlet 5information, death certificates and those sort of 6things. 7 Q. Let's move on to the PEN 8form. Here you say: 9 "Corporal Langridge's PEN 10 form was on his PER's folder 11 and named Shaun Fynes as the 12 primary contact. I'm not 13 completely clear of the issue 14 here. In reference to his 15 friend, Corporal Langridge's 16 will was found in his 17 belongings and named David 18 White as the executor of the 19 will and that has been 20 followed." 21 I think that's pretty clear and 22you have told us about that. 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Three, paperwork, "This is 25not true," and the allegation or paperwork is
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 182 2 3 4 5 1Stuart had changed all his paper work when he and 2the girlfriend broke up which was before the death. 3Here you are saying "This is not true." 4 "At the time of death, common 5 law still stood. Due to an 6 inspection of all files, 7 Corporal Langridge was 8 reminded many times to book 9 an appointment with the clerk 10 and fill out a will and 11 memorial cross. He never did 12 and it lead to this horrible 13 situation." 14 First, I would like to ask you 15where you got the information from to make this 16answer. 17 A. Common law status was on his 18MPRR as the 7 December 07. 19 Q. That's where you got the 20answer, that statement, but the question was that 21he had changed all this paperwork, and just 22previously, there had been the allegation that 23papers have been found on the base behind the 24filing cabinet in June. 25 When you are saying it's not true
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 183 2 3 4 5 1that he had changed all his paperwork, we have your 2answer about common law status, and then you have 3the answer that Corporal Langridge was reminded 4many times to book an appointment with the clerk 5and fill out a will and a memorial cross. Do you 6remember where you got that information from? 7 A. That would have been through 8the administrative process of headquarters 9squadron, Captain Douglas. 10 Q. Captain Douglas. Okay. 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. "He never did it and this led 13to this horrible situation." Would that have been 14Captain Douglas' information as well? 15 A. Yes, I believe so. We 16probably would have been talking afterwards because 17we were in the same squadron, both officers and 18those sort of things. 19 Q. Point four: 20 "Insurance money - His widow 21 is given the SDB. The 22 paperwork was on his file. 23 She has agreed to use those 24 funds to help settle the debt 25 but has not been contacted by
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 184 2 3 4 5 1 the family." 2 Can you tell me about this issue 3of the entitlement to insurance money and then the 4use to which Ms Hamilton-Tree wished to put the 5insurance money? 6 A. SDB being twoyears of 7salary, so it's a form she was identified as the 8recipient of that. I believe there were some 9discussions in accordance to the debt and such, and 10I think this information came from her that she was 11willing to use that in order to help settle the 12debts. 13 Q. "Personal belongs - They are 14 still located within the LdSH 15 (RC)lines. We haven't 16 received release authority." 17 We have seen a lot of 18substantiation for that statement as well. 19 "Lying - I would need 20 specific situations. 21 Otherwise, it's just a 22 personal opinion. I know 23 that I never answered 24 anything till I researched 25 it."
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 185 2 3 4 5 1 On the suicide watch, and this is 2relevant to an allegation that Stuart was on a 3suicide watch at the base but was allowed to go 4back to his room without anyone with him. You 5answer is: 6 "We aren't able to conduct 7 suicide watch. He was not 8 under a suicide watch. He 9 was on duty at the regiment 10 after he was released off 11 suicide watch by the local 12 hospital." 13 I would like to know where, if you 14can recall, you got these pieces of information. 15 A. I think that is mostly from 16talking within the regiment and older members more 17after the fact that we are not allowed to conduct 18that. I think someone got in trouble for 19referencing it as that, so that's where that kind 20of came from. 21 Q. Number nine, getting to the 22end: 23 "Funeral Home - I think this 24 is again a person opinion. 25 Everyone knew that Corporal
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 186 2 3 4 5 1 Langridge had a family and 2 that they were coming. There 3 was other services at this 4 funeral home and that may 5 have led to this opinion." 6 The opinion that you are talking 7about is that nobody knew that the Fynes were 8coming or that Corporal Langridge had a family. 9First of all, I would like to ask you: From your 10own observation, was anyone surprised to see the 11Fynes appear at the funeral? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Were you surprised? 14 A. No. 15 Q. You say everyone knew that 16Corporal Langridge had a family and they were 17coming. What's the general reference to 18"everyone"? I know it doesn't mean the whole 19world. 20 A. It's more the players at that 21time that were dealing with the case because we had 22to fly down most of the family and they would have 23come from different areas and we had to coordinate, 24not me, but the adjutant more had to coordinate the 25paying of those travel arrangements.
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 187 2 3 4 5 1 Q. You have a note that there 2were other services at this funeral home and that 3may have lead to this opinion. Can you help us 4with that? 5 A. Yes. I think they are set up 6to take on two or three different services at the 7time. There are different rooms and such, so I 8think that's maybe where that came from. I can't 9recall if there was another service at that time 10when it was going on, so... 11 Q. Finally, you say: 12 "They were consulted daily 13 through their AO for 14 decisions and opinions from 15 the service to where it was 16 held, headstone, place of 17 interment, the flag, etc." 18 We have seen lots of documentation 19on that topic as well. Headstone is not an issue 20that is of concern to us, so I won't go to it. 21 "I hope this helps. The bulk 22 of these issues seems to be 23 based on personal opinion. 24 His widow has been treated 25 fairly badly by Corporal
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 188 2 3 4 5 1 Langridge's parents and is 2 still willing to work on the 3 payment of his estate. Some 4 of these areas fall under the 5 legal umbrella and I have 6 been warned by JAG that this 7 is not the role of an AO and 8 will have to be brought 9 through a civilian court. 10 With the personal opinion 11 issues, I would need to 12 receive more specific events 13 or details before I correct 14 them or talk about them. 15 Feel free to call." 16 I just wanted to ask you what the 17basis for your opinion that the widow had been 18treated fairly badly by Corporal Langridge's 19parents is. 20 A. As I was talking before, you 21know, that she received the cold shoulder from the 22family and such. 23 Q. At some point, we have heard 24an assisting officer is disengaged from his role. 25Can you tell us whether there was a formal
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 189 2 3 4 5 1disengagement and what the occasion for your ending 2your role was? 3 A. Normally it's not disengaged 4because you keep the same person throughout, but 5where I was going to be deployed overseas, I was 6gone away for 6months with practically no ability 7to communicate, and I had another job to kind of 8focus on which at that time, it was not allowing 9other people to -- they kind of said you can take 10that off your plate and there was an officer that 11was staying behind at the unit that I handed over 12to. 13 Q. Finally, I just wanted to ask 14you about contacts with investigations. We have 15already seen summary of the evidence prepared by 16the Military Police. That was one contact. Did 17you have any contact with the Military Police other 18than this interview? 19 A. No, not that I remember. 20That was the one interview with the NIS. There was 21another interview with the chain of command for the 22BOI, the board of inquiry, with Major Chenette, and 23after that fact was when you guys called I had an 24interview with guys. 25 Q. Okay. Those are the
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 190 2 3 4 5 1questions that I have for you. Thank you very much 2for your answers. 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: Before we go, do 4we need a couple of minutes, health break? Let's 5take a ten minute break. 6--- Recess taken at 3:33 p.m. 7--- Upon resuming at 3:46 p.m. 8 THE CHAIRPERSON: Colonel Drapeau? 9CROSS-EXAMINATION BY COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: 10 Q. Captain Brown, good afternoon 11to you. When you got posted to the LdSH after you 12have done your training in Gagetown, that was 13October2007? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. When you were appointed as 16the assisting officer, you had five or six months 17experience with the regiment itself? 18 A. With the armoured regiment, 19yes. 20 Q. Was that the first time you 21got appointed as AO? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And you went on the course to 24get the qualification to act as assisting officer? 25 A. I don't think it's actually a
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 191 2 3 4 5 1qualification code per se, but it was just a 2seminar or a two day work shop-type thing. 3 Q. When was that? 4 A. I think that would have been 5in January, February. 6 Q. Where? 7 A. It was in Edmonton. It was 8at a civilian hotel. It wasn't on the base. 9 Q. Who gave that course to you? 10 A. I believe it was taught by -- 11it was a captain that worked there. I think he 12dealt with other cases that had occurred in 13Edmonton before. 14 Q. Up until the time you got 15appointed as assisting officer, did you have 16regular contact with Captain Lubiniecki? Daily? 17Weekly? Monthly? 18 A. I would see him around at the 19regiment. 20 Q. You would see him. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. He wasn't tasking you. He 23wasn't in your chain, was he? 24 A. No, he didn't give me tasks 25unless I got in trouble and he would probably give
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 192 2 3 4 5 1me some extra tasks. 2 Q. At the time you were 3appointed as assisting officer, you did not know 4Corporal Langridge. 5 A. No, I did not. 6 Q. You never met him before. 7 A. No. I probably would have 8seen him to recognize him around the regiment, but 9I did not know him. 10 Q. Did you know Rebecca at the 11time? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Have you met her before? 14 A. No. 15 Q. But you formed very early on 16when we saw the various documents that we have that 17Rebecca had a common law relationship with Stuart. 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. That was based solely, 20exclusively on the comments that she made to you or 21you had another source? 22 A. That's based on the MPRR 23saying common law status. 24 Q. That was your source. 25 A. That was first thing, and
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 193 2 3 4 5 1then the adjutant talked to me and gave me the 2brief on Corporal Langridge. 3 Q. As you work through as 4assisting officer, big job, complex, I think that's 5the words that have been used, it probably went 6above and beyond length wise what you would have 7expected from the get-go. You were receiving 8guidance and direction from whom? 9 A. The day-to-day direction 10would have been from the adjutant within the terms 11of that task. 12 Q. Was it day-to-day? 13 A. It varied depending on the 14length of time, right? At the beginning, it was 15daily if not multiple times a day. 16 Q. You reported to him? 17 A. Yes, either through e-mail or 18directly conversation. 19 Q. Face to face. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. So any time you had something 22of whatever complexity or you wanted to make sure 23you were speaking for, the regiment, you check with 24him? 25 A. I would go through him if I
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 194 2 3 4 5 1had questions. 2 Q. Nobody else. 3 A. Could have talked to Major 4Jared at certain times depending on what it was 5about. 6 Q. That would have been the 7exception? 8 A. Yes. The everyday task is 9supposed to go through the adjutant because he is 10responsible for those things. 11 Q. Would he have been informed 12in details as to what you were up to and what you 13were doing, what the circumstances were, either 14required answers, that sort of a thing? 15 A. If I required and answer from 16something else, then it would go through him. 17 Q. Would you check your answers 18with him if questions were asked of you? 19 A. What's that? Sorry. Would I 20check my -- 21 Q. Would you check your answers 22first with Captain Lubiniecki in answer to a 23request being put to you by Major Parkinson or Ms 24Rebecca -- 25 A. Yes, it's usually cc'd to
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 195 2 3 4 5 1him. Like I say, if it was by e-mail, it would be 2cc'd or ultimately he would get an update or he 3would ask me about a certain thing. 4 Q. On the issue of a suicide 5note. We saw earlier, if you need to, we can go 6back to it, where one of the questions you have 7asked was: Was a suicide note left behind? And 8you said that Rebecca is the one in fact who 9originated that question to you. 10 A. Yes. She asked me because I 11was her AO, so... 12 Q. You went up to Captain 13Lubiniecki to find out from? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Was that question asked by 16anybody else? 17 A. It could have been asked by 18Major Parkinson as the AO for the family. 19 Q. Did he? 20 A. I don't know. He dealt with 21the family. I don't have all the dealings of what 22he did. 23 Q. Did Rebecca come back again 24and asked you the same questions later? 25 A. Yes. I think it was asked
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 196 2 3 4 5 1two or three times, so that's why I think-- yes, I 2think it was asked two or three times. 3 Q. Did you ask two or three what 4the issue was? 5 A. I would have continued to 6ask, but, yes. 7 Q. But the same answer, and you 8don't know whether or not they did not know or they 9wouldn't tell you or what it was. 10 A. Yes. I can't recall if I got 11told a "yes" or a "no." I know there was a 12Military Police member around. I asked him 13because he was dealing with Major Jared and the 14belongings, but I never got a straight answer 15because the articles weren't released. 16 Q. During your time in the 17regiment, I presume as a second lieutenant coming 18into a brand new unit, everything would be new to 19you, right, the standard operating procedures and 20thehow the regiment operated? 21 A. In a sense. You would be 22familiar with how a regiment runs. I was familiar 23with some paperwork because of the military college 24and being in the armour school in Gagetown. 25 Q. Were you living in quarters
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 197 2 3 4 5 1at the time? 2 A. In Edmonton? 3 Q. Yes. 4 A. I think I was, but it would 5have been close to the time when I moved out. 6 Q. In quarters you would be 7there with your colleagues, same rank or... 8 A. Yes, all the junior officers 9are ordered into quarters when they initially show 10up at the unit. 11 Q. And they talk. 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Every day. 14 A. Depending on who you like, I 15guess. 16 Q. Of course. Has the word 17"suicide watch" being used in whatever format in 18whatever scenario you can think of among yourself? 19 A. Was there a discussion about 20that within us? No, not within us that I can 21recall. 22 Q. The fact it might have 23existed, it might have been used, that was never 24raised? 25 A. As I mentioned before, I
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 198 2 3 4 5 1heard that someone got in trouble for calling 2something a suicide watch when it's not supposed to 3be called that way. 4 Q. What's your recollection of 5somebody getting in trouble, somebody got extra 6duty, or somebody got -- what happened? 7 A. Someone got yelled at for 8calling it that. 9 Q. Who? 10 A. I think it was a duty 11personnel. It wasn't within the officer core that 12I recall because I think that was a dealing with 13the regimental sergeant major. 14 Q. When Rebecca asked you have 15access to the computer in order to gain access to 16some of the pictures that would be on there for 17whatever purpose, you were there, were you not? 18 A. Yes, I believe so. 19 Q. What was your task and your 20role at the time? 21 A. I was the AO at the time. It 22being clarified through the parents that we would 23look on the computer for pictures for the slideshow 24and such, but I can't recall if that computer 25actually worked at that time, so when she accessed
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 199 2 3 4 5 1those, I would have been watching just behind her. 2 Q. You would have been sitting 3alongside of her or behind her watching her. 4 A. Yes, watching her. 5 Q. It was your task to make sure 6that nothing be deleted from the computer or 7tampered with? 8 A. Yes, there was discussions of 9inappropriate photos, so that was a big concern to 10Rebecca, and ultimately I was there to make sure 11that she didn't access things that she wasn't 12supposed or delete things she wasn't supposed to. 13 Q. How long was that particular 14period? Did you take 30minutes? Did you take 153hours? 16 A. I think we looked tried to 17look through a computer. I can't remember if we 18got on that one, but was also mention of physical 19picture copies and those sorts of things and 20nothing was supposed to be torn up or deleted. It 21was to be compiled for the slideshow and the book 22and such. 23 Q. Between Rebecca and yourself, 24anybody else in the room at the time? 25 A. I would think not because it
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 200 2 3 4 5 1was a bit more of a personal thing dealing with the 2funeral, so... 3 Q. So it's just the two of you. 4 A. I believe so, yes. 5 Q. As far as you are concerned, 6the rules that had been agreed to had been observed 7during the particular session. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. You said you weren't 10surprised to see the Fynes at the funeral. 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Because you were expecting 13them? 14 A. Yes. There had been a lot of 15arrangements gone into getting them to the funeral 16and showing up to the funeral, so it was no 17surprise, everyone knew. 18 Q. Could you turn your attention 19to tab 31, please, and more specifically, the 20e-mail that you sent to Mr. Finlay on the 21st of 21August. Did you prepare this e-mail? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Did you start this e-mail 24through Captain Lubiniecki or anybody else in the 25regiment?
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 201 2 3 4 5 1 A. No. 2 Q. Did anybody else assist you 3in doing so? 4 A. No. 5 Q. So that's a product of your 6own conclusion to respond to. 7 A. Yes, it was a very quick 8response to that e-mail because I was in between 9training. 10 Q. And you would have sent 11copies of this to... 12 A. I don't think I did because, 13as I see, I didn't cc anyone on the above. 14 Q. You didn't expect anybody to 15sign off on it before you send this out? 16 A. No, not in particular. 17Someone sent me an e-mail, asked me questions about 18the case and I tried to respond as best as I could. 19 Q. Thank you. 20 A. Also, at that time, I believe 21the adjutant wasn't in his position there either. 22I can't remember when he handed over, so... 23 Q. Thanks. 24 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms Richards or 25Ms McLaine?
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 202 2 3 4 5 1CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS McLAINE: 2 Q. I just have one question. My 3friend noted that it was your first being an AO. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Do you feel that because it 6was your first time, that was at all detrimental to 7your ability to do the job? 8 A. No, not many people do AOs 9for multiple time periods. It's highly unlikely 10because of the amount of stress that is involved 11with being an AO, so you usually only be it once 12and that's it. 13 Q. Thank you. Thank you those 14are my questions. 15 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Freiman? 16Re-exam? 17 RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. FREIMAN: 18 Q. Just very briefly, Captain. 19You told Colonel Drapeau that in pursuit of the 20issue of the suicide note, you had a discussion 21with a Military Police officer or a member of the 22Military Police. Do you remember who it was? 23 A. No, they were plain clothes 24in the lines. I think he was talking to Major 25Jared, but, no, I did not know his name.
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 203 2 3 4 5 1 Q. Was the person you talked to, 2to your knowledge, one of the personnel assigned to 3the case itself to look into the suicide and 4anything to do with it? 5 A. He did not say in particular, 6but, you know, I made an assumption based on the 7plain clothes military police officer being in the 8lines and talked to Major Jared, but, no, I don't 9know if he was assigned to that case. 10 Q. Similarly, I have a question 11about your answer about somebody getting into 12trouble for using the words "suicide watch." 13First, I would like to get a bit of precision. Was 14this somebody who got into trouble for using the 15words "suicide watch" in relation to the 16arrangements for Corporal Langridge or for some 17other reason? 18 A. I think it was in reference 19to Corporal Langridge. 20 Q. Do you recall whether you 21became aware of the talk that somebody had gotten 22into trouble before the funeral or after the 23funeral? 24 A. I believe it was before. 25 Q. Do you recall whether it was
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 204 2 3 4 5 1before the suicide or after the suicide? 2 A. I think it was before. 3 Q. Am I correct that you said 4that the source of this sort of information was 5scuttlebutt in the enlisted ranks? 6 A. It was a rumour, yes. I did 7not personally witness that incident. I just heard 8it through some of the other guys because the RSM 9deals with the enlisted, so... 10 Q. Thank you very much. 11 THE CHAIRPERSON: 12 Q. I have a couple questions. I 13just want to go back to the suicide note. When 14originally questioned about this suicide note, you 15didn't really recall whether or not you had gotten 16an answer. I think you answered that twice in two 17different ways. 18 But then later on, under questions 19with Colonel Drapeau, you then remembered that you 20had had a discussion with an MP member and you were 21just talking to Mr. Freiman about that. When you 22asked this MP who was in plain clothes that was a 23company of Major Jared, was it the three of you in 24his office? 25 A. No, he was outside his
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 205 2 3 4 5 1office. 2 Q. When was this conversation? 3 A. That would have probably been 4within the time leading up to the funeral. 5 Q. So between? 6 A. Between death to the funeral. 7 Q. Between the death and between 8the funeral. 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. When did Rebecca first ask 11you about a note? 12 A. It probably would have been 13within the first couple of times I met her. 14 Q. You said she asked two or 15three times though about the note. 16 A. Yes, I believe so. I think 17she -- you know, AHey, I don't have an answer on 18it,” she would just ask again, was there any news 19in reference to if there was a suicide note or not. 20 Q. The e-mail that was sent, 21that's at -- 22 MS RICHARDS: Ten. 23 THE CHAIRPERSON: Tab 31. It's 24the one that had the questions at the bottom. 25 MS RICHARDS: Ten.
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 206 2 3 4 5 1 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I 2think you were right. 3 Q. This note was sent on the 418th of -- 5 A. Yes, so that's the Tuesday. 6 Q. 18th of March. And the 7funeral was when? 8 A. I believe it was the 26th of 9March, the second Saturday. 10 Q. So you didn't get an answer. 11You don't remember whether you got on answer on 12this one. 13 A. No. This would have been on 14Tuesday, so I probably would have met her on Sunday 15or Monday, so she probably would have asked within 16those first couple of meetings because I met her 17roughly every day. I can't remember if I got a 18specific "yes" or "no" answer, but it was just -- I 19don't remember -- 20 Q. Obviously you hadn't had an 21answer because you were certain enough that you 22asked the MP who was in plain clothes. He was 23obviously investigating Stuart's suicide, correct? 24 A. Yes, I believe so. 25 Q. And your answer was, and if I
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 207 2 3 4 5 1got it right, and I can't play back the transcript, 2but it was, "I never got a straight answer", I 3think, was your words. What did that mean? 4 A. I couldn't really confirm or 5deny. I believe he wasn't allowed to speak about 6the case or to give specific details about the 7case. 8 Q. Did he tell you that? Did he 9tell you AI can't tell you about a note” or -- what 10is it that he told you? 11 A. I just remember he wouldn't 12tell me if they are "yes" or "no" -- if there was a 13suicide note. 14 Q. He wouldn't tell you "yes" or 15"no." 16 A. No. 17 Q. Did he say that to you? AI 18can't tell you whether there is or is not” or... 19 A. That was the understanding I 20had because of the case. 21 Q. I want you to take a minute 22and I want you to think about exactly what it was 23he said to you because it makes a difference. 24 So take your time and think about 25did he say, "I can't tell you whether there is or
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 208 2 3 4 5 1not a note," or did he just not remember? What did 2he say? 3 A. It was that he couldn't tell 4me. 5 Q. He couldn't tell you. 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. So did that tweak your 8interest? Did you go back and tell Rebecca that? 9 A. I probably would have told 10her that I had no answer, I couldn't get an answer 11on that question right now, and then I probably 12still would have approached through the chain of 13command. 14 Q. So when he told you that he 15couldn't give you an answer, what do you think of 16that? 17 A. The Military Police are 18fairly secretive about what they do and he might 19have not known who I was in particular, so I 20thought it was bit of a privacy thing and that he 21couldn't tell me. 22 Q. After that, did you just stop 23asking? 24 A. The question would have still 25remained with the chain of command.
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 209 2 3 4 5 1 Q. Did you ever share this 2conversation with Adjutant Lubiniecki? 3 A. The discussion with the MP? 4 Q. Yes. That you asked about a 5note because you sent this to Lubiniecki asking him 6the question, then after that, you get an answer 7from the MP that he just can't tell you whether 8there is a note or not. Did you ever then go back 9to Lubiniecki and share this conversation with 10Lubiniecki? 11 A. I can't recall if 12specifically I had the conversation saying -- 13 Q. You must be able to remember 14whether you talked to Lubiniecki or not, not that 15you can't recall. 16 A. I would talk to him everyday 17about the case. 18 Q. Did you share this 19conversation with Lubiniecki? 20 A. I can't remember. 21 Q. You can't remember? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Was there anyone else present 24during this conversation with the Military Police? 25 A. It would have been, I think,
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 210 2 3 4 5 1within the headquarters squadron office, but in 2particular, was there anyone with me around me? 3No. 4 Q. You were interviewed by the 5NIS? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Was the person who 8interviewed you the same person that you talked to? 9 A. No. 10 Q. How many people interviewed 11you? 12 A. With the NIS? 13 Q. Yes. 14 A. There was the one individual 15who was in the room, and then there was one 16individual who was, I think, dictating or copying 17down notes and such. 18 Q. So it was neither of those 19two officers. 20 A. No, they did not look 21familiar, no. 22 Q. It's not hard to deduce later 23on as to what may be -- but it's one of the ones 24that we are investigating. 25 A. Is it one of the Military
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 211 2 3 4 5 1Police that you are investigating? 2 Q. Yes. 3 A. I don't know. He was part of 4the Military Police, but I don't know where you 5want me to go with that question. 6 Q. Do you know what he was doing 7there? 8 A. Oh, I believe he was talking 9to Major Jared in reference to the case. 10 Q. And it was some time before 11the funeral? 12 A. Yes, I believe so. 13 Q. But after you sent this 14e-mail, so between the 18th and the 26th of March? 15 A. That's probably more than 16likely because that's on a Tuesday, we were doing 17stock taking at that time in headquarters squadron, 18but I can't give you specific date, no. 19 Q. Based on everything else, is 20there anything else that you can recall relative to 21the suicide note what this Military Police officer 22or any other person told you about a suicide note? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Okay. 25 THE CHAIRPERSON: Colonel Drapeau
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 212 2 3 4 5 1first? 2 FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY COL 3(RET'D) DRAPEAU: 4 Q. You had the regular, daily 5meetings were required with Captain Lubiniecki. 6Would you agree with me that the issue of the 7existence, possible existence for suicide note was 8important enough that you addressed it in an e-mail 9to the chain of command? It was important to you. 10 A. Yes. It was a question asked 11by -- 12 Q. It was question asked at 13least three times. 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Would I be correct to suggest 16that as an assisting officer reporting to the 17adjutant, and you are having this to-and-fro on a 18daily basis, more than likely, high probability 19that you would have brought up this particular 20subject to Captain Lubiniecki. You may not 21remember, but if you did your job, you would report 22not only this issue and the other issue of 23importance to him. 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. So more than likely you would
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 213 2 3 4 5 1have reported it? 2 A. It's quite possible, yes. 3 Q. Second question, my last 4question, Rebecca had a friend in the regiment as 5Corporal Rohmer that accompanied her to the funeral 6home. 7 In your dealing with her, because 8over certainly the first few days, you would be in 9daily, regular contact with her, basically holding 10her hands to go through a difficult period and so 11on, but throughout that particular period, do you 12know if Rebecca had informal access within the 13regiment to either knock at somebody's door or get 14information from someone or just have a sympathetic 15-- 16 A. No, she shouldn't have, no. 17 Q. Do you know of any? 18 A. Did she have friends in the 19regiment? 20 Q. Did she have access to 21Captain Lubiniecki, to give you an example? 22 A. She could have probably came 23into the regiment and I know she showed up at 24times, she could have probably asked to see 25someone, but did she? I don't recall.
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 214 2 3 4 5 1 Q. And you don't know if anyone 2in particular which she would have had -- 3 A. I think there were some other 4people in the regiment that she knew through 5Corporal Langridge and such because they hung out 6outside of the regiment, let's say. 7 Q. So she was not a stranger to 8the regiment? 9 A. To most of the regiment, yes, 10but to some people, no. 11 Q. Thank you. 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms McLaine? 13 MS McLAINE: Nothing further. 14 THE CHAIRPERSON: 15 Q. I have one more question. 16Regarding the computer, I thought I heard you say 17you were sitting behind Rebecca at the computer, 18and you said you couldn't recall if the computer 19was working. Did I hear that right or did I hear 20that wrong? 21 A. Yes. I think we asked to get 22access to the computer and then to acquire pictures 23for the slideshow. I don't remember if that 24computer worked when we initially tried to turn it 25on or not.
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 215 2 3 4 5 1 Q. I'm confused. Did you get 2the picture that you needed for the slideshow? 3 A. Yes, we ended up getting 4pictures because we also went through physical 5photos that was in his belongings. 6 Q. But you don't remember 7whether or not the computer worked? 8 A. No, I don't remember if that 9computer worked because we were also acquiring 10photos from different sources. 11 Q. How many computers were 12there? 13 A. Oh, he was just one. 14 Q. One computer. 15 A. Yes, I believe he just had 16one. We were acquiring from maybe like his friends 17and the family and stuff like that. 18 Q. Your job is to look at the 19computer and to make sure that nobody takes 20anything from it, but you don't recall whether the 21computer was working? 22 A. No, I do not. 23 Q. I find that odd that you 24wouldn't remember whether or not the computer is 25working. That's what you were there for.
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 216 2 3 4 5 1 A. In the whole process, I 2believe it was a minor thing within the planning of 3a funeral, which occurred over a rapid period of 4time. 5 Q. Agreed, only one item, but 6it's an event that I'm just -- 7 A. But since that time, I have 8also done other things that take a precedence over 9remembering this case. 10 Q. Did you take any notes 11regarding what you did? 12 A. In my binder, that's where I 13would have taken notes, you know, I might have 14taken from some of the meetings. 15 Q. But the binder is lost. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Well, maybe Rebecca will 18remember. 19 FURTHER RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. 20FREIMAN: 21 Q. I just wanted to follow up a 22little bit on the Chair's question. The impression 23I'm getting is that you got pictures for a 24slideshow and you assembled the slideshow that was 25shown on whatever computer was used to show the
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 217 2 3 4 5 1slideshow, but now we have to ask ourselves: Was 2the source of the pictures for that slideshow the 3images on Stuart Langridge's computer, or was the 4source for the pictures in that slideshow physical 5photographs that were scanned and then put onto 6whatever program that played the computer? 7 Again, we appreciate you have had 8many important things on your mind between then and 9now, and this isn't a big detail, but take a second 10and consider whether your view today is that the 11pictures had their origin in the computer, or the 12pictures had their origin in hard copies that you 13found in Colonel Langridge's belongings? 14 A. To the best of my knowledge, 15I think it was paper copies -- or physical copies, 16and then I think we also compiled computer photos 17from his friends and from family. 18 Q. Okay. Is it fair to say 19sitting here today, you cannot tell us whether that 20computer ever worked properly. 21 A. Yes, I can't tell you here 22today, no. 23 THE CHAIRPERSON: Colonel Drapeau? 24 FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY COL 25(RET'D) DRAPEAU:
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 218 2 3 4 5 1 Q. Mr. Chair, I have to come 2back to this. Let me give you two options. One 3option is you are standing behind Rebecca as you 4are both looking at the screen, the computer, and 5pictures are flashed on and she selects whatever it 6is and that eventually computer gets down, you 7forget all about it as you should because it 8operated as it should. You have accomplished the 9mission and Rebecca is happy. You are happy and 10you have no memory of it. I have no difficulty 11with that. 12 But if the other is: The computer 13doesn't work, then it forces me to ask you the 14question, what did you do then? Did you call 15somebody? Did you say, "Holy, we have a problem 16here. We cannot have access to." What was your 17reaction if the computer was broken? Would there 18be something unusual that creates something in your 19memory bank? 20 A. The reaction would be to find 21another way to collect photos, so either through 22friends and family. I probably would have had a 23discussion with Major Jared in reference to the 24computer, but that would have been about it, 25because it's adapt to it and then carry on.
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 219 2 3 4 5 1 Q. Would it have been a known 2event that you just carry on despite that something 3she had asked for? You have alluded to that some 4of the pictures in it were indiscreet, so you have 5a recollection of why that was to be? 6 A. Why it was serious, yes. 7 Q. Right. But it never opened, 8it never worked, and you have no recollection of 9what you might have done and what impact this had. 10 A. I wasn't really to worried 11about that aspect because they said in the same 12discussion with that MP, I asked him about the 13issue with inappropriate material, and he said once 14properties are released, anything like that would 15be removed. 16 For example, if guys are overseas 17and they passed away, if they had porno mags in 18their barrack box or whatever, they would be 19removed before his items were released to the 20family because it's inappropriate material and it 21would bring -- 22 Q. Embarrassment. 23 A. Yes, embarrassment. 24 Q. Thank you. 25 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms
6 7 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 220 2 3 4 5 1Richards or Ms McLaine? Anything? 2 I believe that ends our testimony 3for today. Thank you for attending today. While I 4may sound frustrated with hearing I don't recall a 5number of times, I do appreciate the time goes by 6and I will just leave it at that. I want to thank 7you for your attendance and your service to Canada 8and the CF. Thank you. 9 MS RICHARDS: I just state on the 10record and perhaps for the Chair and other counsel, 11you may or may not recall Major Jared's testimony 12on this point, you might want to go back and review 13his transcripts because you do have other evidence 14on this point. 15 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Any 16housekeeping before we finish off today? All 17right. We are adjourned till tomorrow morning at 189:30. 19--- Whereupon the proceedings adjourned 20 at 4:18 p.m.
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2 I HEREBY CERTIFY THAT I have, to the best 3 of my skill and ability, accurately recorded 4 by shorthand and transcribed therefrom, the 5 foregoing proceeding using real time computer 6 aided transcription. 7 8 9
10 ______11 Marion Liang, Court Reporter 12
13 and 14
15 I HEREBY CERTIFY THAT I have, to the best 16 of my skill and ability, accurately recorded 17 by Stenomask and transcribed therefrom, 18 the foregoing proceeding. 19 20 21 22
23 ______24 Suzanne Hubbard, Stenomask Reporter
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