MFDP Chapter 55

FANNIE LOU HAMER 0491- 1 Mrs. Negro woman in Ruleville, Miss. FDP: member of ex. com. and of the three women challengers Q: How did you begin working in the Movement? A: My name is Mrs. Fannie Lou Hamer and I exist at 626 East Lafayette St. in Ruleville, Miss. Well I think actually the first time that I wanted to become involved in anything that would change the state of Miss, something began real early in my childhood. I'm from a very large family, twenty children, one marriage, my mother and my father... was just one husband and one wife had six girls and fourteen boys and I'm the twentieth child. When I was about six years old I remember one day playing. . .beside a little gravel road, just like these streets out here, 'cause they don't have any blacktop streets in the Negro neighborhood. So I was just playing... in the gravel road and a white man came along and asked me could I pick cotton, the same stuff you see out there. He asked me could I pick, so: I told him "I don't know." And he said, "You try It and if you pick thirty pounds of cotton in one week, I'll let you come to the commissary." This was a store but it was called at that time a commissary and he told me different things that I could get that I had never had so 1... I tried it. I picked thirty lbs. of cotton that week and he did give me the stuff ...from the store but what was done was actually setting a trap for me. The next week I have to pick sixty, next week seventy. And by the time I was thirteen years old I was picking three and four hundred lbs. of cotton. And then my family would make fifty and sixty bales of cotton and we wouldn't have enough to live on during the winter months. So my mother would go out where you see people using bull- dozers and all these things. . .moving trees and things. Well they didn't have those things then. My mother used to cut with an ax. Then she would go to white peoples houses and she would wash, and she would iron, and they wouldn't pay her in money but they would give her milk and they would give her butter, sometime hoghead and all that kind of stuff to feed us on. By the time I was ten or twelve I just wished to God I was white...be cause they didn't work, they had food to eat, they didn't work, they had money, they had nice homes. And we would nearly freeze, we didn't have food, we worked all the time and didn't have nothing. So then as I got older I began to realize there was something really wrong with the structure of Miss. Then my mother working in the new grounds cutting trees and things like that, something flew up and hit her in her eye and she lost her sight. And when my mother died in 1961 she was totally blind. And I said if there ever come a chance in Miss, that I could do something to change that power structure of the state, I would do it because I'm determined that my children don't have to suffer like I suffered and that these old people won't have to suffer like my mother suffered. 0491-2

So in 1962 in the 14th day of August the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee came into Rulesville. That Monday night after to 14th I went over here, right around the corner here to this church, William Chapel and the pastor announced at the end of the service that there would be a mass meeting that night, that Monday night following that Sunday. So I didn't understand what that mass meeting was, I didn't know what it was 'cause I'd never gone to a mass meeting. So on Monday night my husband drove me from out in the rural area where I had been working to the church. And when we got there, , , Regie Robertson, and Jim Forman. And James Bevel preached from the twelve chapter of St. Luke designing (?) the signs of the times. Then Jim Forman from SNCC got up and explained how it was our constitutional rights to register and vote, and how it could change... the different laws like if we didn't want a law in the town or what was going on we could vote it out. So that I thought it was the most remarkable thing that could happen in the state of Miss. So then they ask who would go down on Friday which was the 31st to try and register. So I went down, I was one of the persons who said I would go to register on the 31st. So then on the 31st there was 18 of us who went 26 miles to the county court house in Indianola to try to register. And we had this long literacy test that we'd never seen before but when we walked in the office the registrar asked us what we want and we told him we was there to try to register to vote. And he said, "All of you can f t stay in here now, get out. All but two." Well I was one of the two persons who stayed in the registrar's office and Ernest Davis was the other person. So we filled out this literacy test as best we could... it was very complicated. I don't know whether you've seen one or not. But anyway we filled it out as best we could and after we had finished the other people went in. And it was about 4 O'clock be- fore we had a chance... to get back on the bus to come back. During the time I was in the registrar's office he made a long distance call to call the police dept. in Cleveland Miss. And I saw so many people around that day with their guns and different things and dogs, and I really didn't understand...that they didn't want us to register. So when we started back to Ruleville we were stopped by one of the same highway patrolmen that I'd seen cruising around the bus that the Negro fellow had drove down there to carry us to Indianola. He lived in Bolivar Co. and this bus had been used...year after year to carry people to farm work, chopping and picking cotton and then he would use it to Florida every winter. Well when we got ready to come back we noticed while we were on the bus before the others got on that this state highway patrolman and a city police. . .just kept cruising backwards and forth past the bus. Then finally they were going out of town but we didn't know exactly what was happening. So then when all of us got on the bus and started to Ruleville we were stopped by this same highway 0491-3 patrolman and city police. And they ordered us to get off the bus and we got off and then they ordered us to get back on the bus. We got back on the bus and then they told us to turn around and go back to Indianola. When we got back to Indianola the bus driver was charged with driving a bus the wrong color. They first charged $100 and then they cut down from $100 to $50. And from fifty to #30. Well, by the time they got to thirty, the eightteen of us... had enough to pay this fine. We came on to Rulesville. And when I got to Rulesville then Rev. Jeff Sunny carried me out to the rural area where I had worked 18 yrs. as a time keeper and sharecropper. So when I got out of his car the kids met me.. and my oldest girl was very upset. She told me that this man was very mad 'cause I'd gone to Indianola . .vand tried to register. So I went in the house beca use it was. ..disturbing to me as why he didn't want me to regis- ter and I was trying to register for myself. So then my husband came and he start telling me about...Mr. Marlow was mad and he said if I didn't go back to Indianola and with- draw I was going to have to leave. So he hadn't finished talking about it for three or four minutes. . .till Mr. Marlow came. And I had gone in the house and taken a seat on my little girl's bed and he asked my husband said, "Is Fannie Lou come home yet?" And he said, "Yes sir." And he said, "Well did you tell her what I said ?" So I got up then and walked ontcon the screen porch just like this. And when I walked out he said, "Fannie Lou did Pat tell you what I said?" I said, "Yes sir." He said, Well I mean that so you will have to go back and withdraw" or you will have to leave here. ?"_..-.Aad I didn't say anything. He said, "I'm waiting for your answer, yeh or nay." So I said, "Mr. Marlow I didn't go to Indianola to register for you. I went to Indianola because I was trying to register for myself." So I had to leave that same night, that was on the 31ste of August in 1962. The 10th of Sept. is when 16 bullets was fired into the house. You can see it and I'd like for you to see it right back of this house. They shot in that house 16 times.. to kill me. And that night, that same night they shot two girls, one right down the street from that house where they shot in for me. Then they shot in Mr. MacDonald*s house. I went to Tallahatchie Co. after that...to pick cotton to try to make enough to put my two children in school. So my husband wanted to get the things and the landowner told him that he couldn't get the things if he was going to leave then but if he was going to help him to harvest in... his things...his beans and his cotton crop, well he would give him all of our beongings. But what happened after he helped him. ..to harvest in all his beans and his cotton, when he got ready to move, they'd taken the car and most of the few things we had had been stolen. So we moved here in this house the 2nd of Dec. in 1962. When we got ready to move here our things had been taken. Then in Feb. in 1963» oh yes, the 10th od Dec. 1962 I went back to Indianola to take this literacy test again. 0491-4 So again I was met by the registrar. . .he wanted to know... what did I want. So I told him I was there again to take the literacy test to register. And I said"l want you to know something," I said, "If I live I will become a regis- tered voter." I said, "You can't have me fired any more because you had me fired at the beginning." I said, "I won't have to move because Iym not living in a white man's house." I said, "You'll see me every thirty days until I become a registered voter." So that was my second test and I past ed that literacy test then on the 10th of Jan. 1963. My husband was arrested in 1963 when I went to the City Hall... they uses so many different tactics...to harrass us and we have to pay five and six dollars for water that was impossible for us to use. So this time we was charged with using 9,000 gal. of water. I don't have a sink, no running water in the house, just a commode. And I went up there to tell the lady at the City Hall. I said, "I want you to know that I know better but I'll pay you." I said, "But I want you to know that I know it's impossible for me to use 9,000 gal. of water. I don't have a sink in the house. I don't have anything but a commode and my kids go to school everyday. My husband hunt and I'm working. . . I was doing voter registration work. My husband was arrested and carried to jail because of thatand was fined $100. Later on my daughter was arrested in Cleveland and then the 9th of June I was arrested in Winona and I was beaten in jail until my body was just as hard as metal. I'm suffering now with the blood clot in the artery to my left eye and a permanent kidney injury on the right side and people don't know what it's like to have to listen to phone calls when you're being threatened...people telling you what they gonna come do. But I'm determined to bring a change in the sate of Miss, because ...all of my life as long as I can remember I was just fed up and tired of what was going on here... and I just mean to work, if it means dying I know there is a part of me that will keep on living because the people that know that I work hard, that part will give them strength to keep goin'. But to live here in Miss., to work, is very hard for me to picture.. .how they can carry our funds, how they can carry my people... out of Miss, and carry them to fight in Vietnam, Dominican Republic. And you lay here each night wondering will your house be bombed. And is in America, what is called a free society, a free country. And nothing, they do a little something now that maybe three or four yrs. they'll do a little something else that bring us gradually what's sup- posed to been ours for one hundred yrs. Youknow that's really disgusting. And it's sickening. And that's the reason I stay in m^ fight. I don't ever try to fight for equal rights cause I'm fighting for all human beings because we have less to hide than any race in America. And I'm not fighting for equal rights because if I had equal rights actually with the the Senators and the power officials in the government of the state of Miss., I wouldn't be as much as I am now because I would be a thief and a robber and a murderer and the biggest liar on earth. But what people don't realize. . .that we know 0491-5 all of this. And they tell us today that yes, we're having progress. And just year after year we're killed for no reason at all. And the only reason in 1964 when they done something about the civil rights murders in Miss, was cause two of them was white. You remember when they was fishing the lake for the three civil rights workers, they found two other folk... but people will tend to cover it up. And then when I start working and other people that just been treated like dogs, if you look in that house you can see where cotton is in the cracks there to try to keep us warm in the winter- time? to keep us from freezing. But as soon as we start to do something to bring a change they got one escapegoat that they turn to and that's Communists. . .lquestion this. I won- der do Communists stand for all the things that we're fight- ing for, cause if it did, it would offer a hell of a lot more than we've ever been offered in this country. That's nothing but an excuse to keep people for facing realities in this country. And they didn't know that, that they affect me, you see by doin' what they done. You have been affected by this society in this country because actually they didn't teach you what the real history of this country was like, because actually you are not free either. Because when you begin to speak out, they're goin to go saying the far left... Look how they done these kids at Berkeley campus. And that's the reason I say, "This country's sick. And the only way this country will survive is people working like you and like I'm workin that's really concerned about human beings of this country because other than that, a house divided against itself cannot stand. And the same thing goes for nations, a nation divided against itself cannot stand. And its goin to take people like you that's concerned about this country that can make a Great Society..." You know the church have played the role of the church for the past hun- dred years and failed to do what they church should have done. But actually working with these kids that they call radical and far left like SNCC I've seen more Christianity there than I»ve ever seen in the church. Cause the most segregated hour in America is the 11 o'clock church service when you see black and white hypocrits goin to church from all over the country and they'll tell you... "Well I believe it's alright to have something done better. But don't let this black per- son move beside me." Well it couldn't be Christianity because the 17th chapter of Acts in the 26th verse there it has "made of one blood all nations." So that just means there's a dif- ference in the color of our skins. But the sad thing, there ain't too many elder people that see that. It's young people today that really is the Christian church instead of all these big fine buildings that's so-called churches. Because if you remember down there in Neshoba Co. one of those people that helped to murder those boys was a Baptist minister. Well it's really time for America to wake up. Q: Just before we turned on the tape we were talking about the Deacons and . How do you feel about nonvio- lence yourself and how much longer do you think the movement 0491-6 is going to stay nonviolent? A: Actually, I couldn't how long that+his movement across the country will remain nonviolent because we have done every- thing under the heavens in a nonviolent way to be treated as human beings. Still being killed, still be in shot, still bein murdered. Just last Friday a man that was deaf and dumb had been murdered about two miles from here. And my husband said he'd never seen nothing like that in his life. They only found his shirt. Do news get out about it? The ■ only way is people like you that's concerned anough about it to want it on tape. This man was killed. They didn't find nothing but his shirt. They couldn't £ind his pants, they couldn't find his shoes, they couldn't find anything else. And they was talkin about it, some men was talkin about it last night. The laws was steady laughing (?) and pointin out towards the beans what was about waist high, which way could have been killed... and then brought to the house. And then last night when I went to see my husband, there was a man there in the bed, you just could tell where his eyes was. And you never seen nothing like that 'less than would be, well you seen a picture of a person, the way they have to tape them up after they've been I 'executed. And this man was laying there not aware that he was in the world and been in that same shape ever since they found him Sunday morning, well they actually don't know what time it was when these white people carried him out from Rosedale someplace. But the man was laying there. Now I don't even think a white per- son under the sun could say they'd be patient as long as we been patient. And I think the Deacons is one- of the best things that ever happen. In fact I thought that was one of the greatest men that I ever met in my life cause he told exactly how every Negro in this country feels and didn't have the guts to say it. And you see a lot of black folks now is gettin fed up...you Just can take so much, and we have...and they pretend that they're f ightlnlntegration. And if you notice in the state of Miss, you see people here is, you wont know whether they're Negro or not, and they're Negro. And these Negro mens didn't do this. These white men done this with these Negro women. And I wonder how long now do people think that we'll stay... just be nonviolent. Dr King... he preaches nonviolence but it's very strange when he go from place to place he got armed protection. . . That make me belive he doesn't even believe lit. Q: You mentioned that you thought there was more Christianity with SNCC than you've seen In churches. Do you think that the Movement is creating or motivating a new type of religion among the people? A: Well, actually, if people is thinkin in terms of... as Christians in the fifth chapter of Matthew which is the Beatitudes of the Bible it says "when men shall revile you and they shall prosecute you and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely for my sake, rejoice and be exceeedingly glad for great is your reward in heaven for so they prosecuted 0491-7 the prophets which was before you." SNCC is the type of people that regardless to what they say, call them far left and radicals and beatniks and all this kindof thing, but they still is willing to go into areas and if it's necessaryy.. cut off in the area, in the rural area and they work right with the people. They work with the people that's poor, they work with the people that's never had a chance to be treated as a human being. And if it's necessary, some have already done that, has given their lives for the cause of human justice. There's not many Christians in these churches that's willing to do that. In fact I've seen some great people from the National Council of Churches cause I worked with them. Now they have some great ministers with the National Council of Churches and Robert Spack, Art Thomas, Rev. Larry Walker, Rev. McKenna and I know ±fc rs hundreds of more that I don't know that's with the National Council of Churches which is doing a tremendous job now. But there are millions of other ministers that's not even working with the National Council of Churches. And you see the church have failed because in the Scripture say "Go ye therefore and teach all nations." And all that SNCC is trying to do, is trying to do, SNCC, and I would say SNCC and CORE especially, and the young peo- ple that came into Miss. in the 1964 project, all they're trying to do is say "These are human beings and they supposed to be treated like anybody else." It's just Christianity there. I seen more Christianity there than I"ve seen in any church. Cause these churches in the north that say they're Integrated, you go and there'll be 3,000 white people and two Negroes sittin...at the back, at the rear. And maybe they say if it's a Negro church and it's integrated you see two or three thousand Negroes there and two whites. You see if they had...if they really was concerned about human justice, they wouldn't have to have even these seperate churches. Cause... it doesn't make sense if we have... if we worshiping the same God, we have to worship Him at different churches... Now I can't serve my God like you serve yours. You know that's foolish. And again as I said, the salvation of this country will restjon your shoulder, all of your shoulders. This young and determined to see that things change not only in Miss, but all around this country for human beings. Because actually you see more old people involved now only because you become involved. See, and that's something they supposed to been doin. But they didn't. Q: Do you think religion is holding people back in any way, that people are still trusting in God to do things that they should be doing?

A: Yes, in some areas, but I believe in Christianity. But it's something you do, you know. It's really something you do, and not actually be a hypocrite with it. I've seen so many hypocrites; and that includes ministers, you know. And how they do things, you know, the calm sneaky ways, you know ...I lose faith in a lot of the ministers. And they really will hinder you, you know, because I been thrown out of 0491-8

churches right here in Miss. And you see actually a lot of people white and black tend to say what they gonna do, for bringin a change; and they're not actually after bringin a change, if you remember what happened on that Selma , from Selma to Montgomery. Now when Jackson was killed, you know that black fella, there wasn't much to happen over there. Nobody knew about it. They had a little writeup in the paper about it, on about page 60 if it had sixty pages, so you know7^Buldn t see it. But you know when Rev. Reeb was killed, a middle' class minister, people almost jumped out of parachutes goin there, you know. And this is a shame l I show it even hypocrisy and death. And it's just time for this country to wake up cause as I say often, you know a lot of people get mad, but it's the truth. I had forty years, l'm forty-seven... forty years, that's when the white man made his greatest mistake is when he put us behind. If he'd put us in front we wouldn't 've had a chance to watch him. So he put us be- hind, we watched every move he made. We know him. He doesn't know us, but we know him; and you see when I see something like this it realy makes me sick that the harder people protest and how they done after Rev. Reeb was killed, when this young man was killed protect in his mother, and nothin said. And you had people goin from every direction when they got slums in their areas that they oughts be workin on you know; but they didn't go, they not doin that, you know. They out to get they name in the paper, be seen on television, and then when the press move out, what's happenin to those people that's goin to be there? They still goin be harassed, still goin be shot, and all that. They not willln to stay there. And it's only people like SNCC. And I say this because I know what they've done to build up the local people's hope in the state of Miss. And again I go back to Christianity. In the fourth chapter of St. Luke in the eighteenth verse says "the spirit of the Lord is upon me because he has anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor." It was his purpose here, was speakin and preachin to the poor. So mostly what the middle class, bourgeois white and black, cause I've seen white Toms an Negro Toms. They concerned about the person who's already got somethin. They're not tryin to bring no change for these peop le who don't have anything, you know. If they go into a area they gonna go into the best part of the neighborhodd, they gonna get with the best type of people. They not concerned with this man down here, he might be drunk down there. But nobody question why. And that's the hypocrisy of this country. And only SNCC will go there and give these people enough hope so that they say well you know I believe lam a human being. An I've seen more Christ ianity there than I've ever seen in a church. Q: What do you feel is the role of the white person in the movement? 0491-9

A: Well the role of the white people in the movement, as I've found, the white people in the movement, especially young people, now there's goin be some rotten ones in there now regardless to what you have all these people are not goin be good; but some of the people in this movement is just as dedicated, is just as pure in wantin a change for all human be ins. You know. And I just have faith, not only in the young Negroes, but in the young whites, that would be workin not only in the south but in fact all over the country, to bring a change in the United States. Because I have met some remarkalble white people. I never will forget one experience. I was called one night and they said they was goin to put me in the river, in the Miss. River. Was two young white men here— that was last summer— Bill(?) and Lynn Edwards, Congressman Don Edwards' son. And those two young men just begged me until I went over to Miss Carter's, and I stayed over there and they stayed over here. Now what that meant, that they were wil- lin to give their life for their brother. And I say brother my husband is a black man...but if you concerned about human beins, you're brothers, under the skin, you know. And they stayed here that night, an I came home soon that mornin, and I saw a note, and they don't know today that I read that note, but there was a note in the chair, you know, that they had wrote there in the dark, just in case something happened to them, and it was tellin us that they had to do something to protect... food It's just a lot of crap that folks talk about the/democracy of this country, 'cause there ainjt nobody had it. You haven't had it because you can't have yours until I have mine, because if you had it you could go to any neighborhood in this toipi and we could have lunch together. But if we went up there Immediately we'd be arrested. So no man is an island. An until all men are free, nobody's free. Q: Could you tell us something about the congressional challenge, how you feel about it, how it looks at this point? A: Well, ah, it looks very good, very good, in fact I think quite a few of us with the Miss. Freedom Dem. Party, quite a few of us, it's been a real shock, even now you know that this challenge has gone this far. But the reason that this challenge has gotten this far— I go back to young people, white young people and Negro young people in the different areas but still of voting, age that have done a tremendous job in helping get support in the different areas and getting our congressmen to support the challenge. Because I never will forget the time I met Congressman Emmanuel Cellar, and I went to his apartment, so we had about 3,000 petitions, so when we walked in to start tellin him he just started talkin and he wouldn't let us say any- thin, you know. And then he was tellin me how liberal he was and how much he had done for the Voting Bill, how much he'd done for the Civil Rights Bill, and I said well the 0491-10

Civil Rights Bill is air-conditioned, and that means that air come out at any place, you know. So it's not too strong. An as for the 1965 voting right, I said that wasn't important to me, I said It wasn't important at all I said because if the Fifteenth Amendment was bein en- forced we wouldn't have to have a 1965 voting rights. So then he said that he was the man that done so much for the Voting Bill. And I said we have here some petitions, and he said, oh there are those petitions, and he you know just talked on until I finally said, Well, Congressman Cellar, I said, if you was so liberal, I say how could you vote to have those five representatives seated on the 4th of January? That's when he ordered us out. But durin the time after he told us to get out, one of the men that was with me, you see these 3,000 petitions happened to be from Congressman Emmanuel Cellar's district, well this guy told him, said well we fixin to leave, but this lady here that you ordered out, I want you to know that the rest of your people in this district will know it because this is some of the petitions out of your district. Congressman Emmanuel Cellar told us to have seats and talk to us nice, not because it was right but because he see his power's goin be threatened. So then he told us that he would see that the depositions was printed, and the depositions have been printed, and then the National Council of Clourches have out the report on the challenge. And then going to the different areas, I had about a seven state tour; I've been home about, be two weeks, won't be t«ro weeks either. But I stayed at home one week and then I left last Saturday and went to Milwaukee, last Saturday, and I left there last Sunday comin back. And it was the support that was two- thirds of young people gathered at the different campuses and talkin to other pe ople, they've got other people interested enough to pressure their congressmen and you know send them telegrams, and all, that they would get enough support that we hope that maybe by the 21st that this would be out of the hands of the Committee on Election which is all southerners and to get a floorhold, and you know, I believe it can happen, because this type of chal- lenge has been done before. An I think this is very im- portant because if we have success with this challenge, it won't only bring a change in Miss, but it will bring & change all across the south. And they'll get the message and I think they'll begin to let the people register and let them vote, and give them a chance to have a voice you know in the government. Q: What about the events in Atlantic City last year? Could you tell us a little bit about that and why the FDP delegation refused to compromise? A: Well it was you know that's the way I find out about 0491-11

there being so much hypocrisy in the whole country. At one time everybody you know especially the leaders you know the Negro leaders you know that were very strong with us with this challenge, and then when some of the higrarchy of the government began to putthe pressure on different people, you know, then they beg an to put the squeeze on the top leaders. So then the top leaders, you know, began to tell us what we should do and what we shouldn't do. I never will forget, I met with Vice President Hubert Humphrey; he wasn't Vice at that time. An I'll never forget the day that Mr. Joe Riles told us there, If you people don't stop pressuring ©o hard to be seated tonight in the convention, not you know that night, but if we didn't stop pressurin &o be seated that the Vice President wouldn't be nominated as Vice, that same night. So I said, you mean that one man's position is more important than 400,000 black people's lives? I never was even allowed to meet again. They used the people that they figured would accept the compromise. Well, Dr. king was very strong at one time, then all of a sudden they had meetings, and we didn't go. We wasn't even there. Then we was supposed to meet at the church and when we met at the church they was there to tell us what we should accept. So I just raised a question as how could you tell us what to accept when you haven't worked one day in Miss.? And some of these people hadn't. You know Mr. Roy Wilk&ns in parti- cular, he told me one night, I was goin to talk to some of the delegates, and he told me you people are ignorant, you don't know anything about politics, you put your point over, why don't you pack up and return to Miss.? You see it's these kind of things that we've been facing and then they wanted us to accept their compromise— two votes-at-large. So I got up and I told them that there was 63 000 people at that time registered with the Freedom Dem. "Party. I say I will go back home with my head up. I said because I wouldn't be low enough to sell those people out, and go back with my head up. But it's, you know, it/s hypo- crisy in the whole thing. Two votes-at-large wouldn't have meant anything to us. We couldn't have accepted the com- promise. You see, if there's something you see that's what I'm tryin to say. An I told them I said if you had treated us right, I said these kids shouldn't have to be in here doin aomethin you should've done years ago. I said well they're here, and they're here to stay, until they get ready to go back. I said If I catch any one of you gettin out of your station wagon, and you tell your buddies that, I said I'm gonna take my rifle and I'm gonna set you on fire. I'll die protectin these people. An I mean it, cause you know these people have worked here in Ruleville, and you know people look for just one thing, and that's the nastiest part they can find an that's sex. Well now this person's mind, you see, is closed, is set. I say well you needn't have a bad feelin about everybody. But I've seen these young people that have worked here in Ruleville, and I 0491-12 think as much of these children as I do my own kids. And you know I'd give my life for these children and I'd give my life for these other children. Cause they're re- markable. And I know they've got conditions that need workin on in the north. But they've come in, and they don't act conceited over us, and they treat us as human beings, and we had one girl staying here in this town, I gould go to her as a friend, you know. If I had troubles I could go to her and we'd talk things over. And that's something we've neiier had to have a chance, is tellin a white person. And it's the hope of this country, this concern really about human dignity. You see I'm sick of seein it on the books and it not bein In motion. Whether they remain nonviolent I don't know, but they's the only hope of this whole country, is these young people that's workin now. And again, you know I hate to just keep talfcin, but again I go back to Christianity and I think the Scrip- tures in the Bible, you know it says you'll raise up a nation that's (?) . You know these ole hellions wasn't gonna do nothin, cause they been foolin all of us. And these people, you know, you are the church. I've seen it happen in you know even in the Negro communities. You see you know Negroes dress up to go to church, and they asked a lot of questions about what did the other one have on, and they do it at the white church, cause you see them some of them have hats on as tall as your arm, you know, goin out there lookin foolish. That's not 50... But you see you concerned about the real problems of this country, and that's Christianity. And that's the hope of this country. Q: Do you think the black man is ever going to have his freedom? A: I believe so, because I hate to keep goin back from the Bible to the problem, but the bo&k of Ephesians says be not deceived, for God is not , for whatsoever a man sows, so that shall he also reap. You see, they think in terms of treating the black people as animals in thfts country. But you see this country's not even the white man's country. The black man was here in 1619 and that was before the May- flower. And even after the white man came to this country... where Indians owned this country, he is just the type of person who never wants to treat nobody right but a white man. Because when the Indians taught them how to do different things in this country, instead of giving them thanks for what they done, they killed the Indians. After they stopped killing the Indians then they began killing the buffalo and all that. And they just forced them and forced them and forced them back until now we don't have too many. Well this man can't keep surviving off of everything he do, he do it through murder, blood. I think the Negro will survive in the United States cause this white man gonna finally see that he got as much right here and he got, cause it's not his home and it's not his either.. So he got just as much right here as that white man got here. So he gonna begin, one day I might be dead and gone, but he gonna one day wake up to the fact that says "I'm gonna have to treat this guy 0491-1-3 right cause if I don't, I might have to shove off. And I think it would be best if they consider, you what they do to keep,, us down, the money they spend in ways to keep us down We all coulda done got rich. Them and us too, ain't that right. They spend billions of dollars starting scheams... to keep us down. And a Negro can just get up and start doin something. It's just automaticly this guilt. And I think the man goin down the road with this man done plotted for years and years. And the guy ought to see his time and just say, "I'm gonna straighten up and treat the man right." Cause that's all he wants. Why I wouldn't want this country all black folks, but I just definitely don't want it all white folks running it. Let some of all the good people. . .enjoy some of the things. And this could be a great country... this could be just like the book says, cause the book said but it's not like that. This could be a great land for all human beings, instead of them spendin millions and billions of dollars goin to the moon, what trick can they use next to hold us down a little bit longer. You know we could all be wealthy and wouldn't be worried about anything cause it doesn't make sense, all this fight in. just to be treated like human be ins. So as soon as this country realize that, as soon as the white man realize that, maybe ...maybe , I won't say some places maybe there gonna be bloodshed. But the sooner they realize that, thequicker this can be a peaceful country. What's happenin now in the whole world is looking at America. Cause... l met a lady in L.A. Mon. night after that riot started and she said, "I'm goin all around." And she was from some place but I know it wasn't from America. She said "I jes don't believe that these things can happen in the U nited States and they say it's a free country. And I said, "Well I must have been stayin (?)" I said, "I was born in the United States but I ain't been in no free one." And as soon as the people realize that, that we gonna stay here... cause I got a threat one time that told me to go back to Africa. And every- whre I go I always tell 'em, I said, "If you gonna be sending folks away from home," I said, "After you send the Jews back to Jerusalem, the Koreans back to Korea, the Chinese back to China, and you give the Indians back their land and you get , home on the Mayflower from whence you came who would be at " " " So the sooner the people realize that we gonna be here... And we're just here, we got as much right here as they have. I don't know how we made it here cause we was here in 1619 and he got here on the Mayflower. We beat him here somehow. So ...I don't think it's right... to try to force me out. All of this is borrowed land if that's what they're talking about, but it could be a great country for all of us. And I'm fightin just as hard to free the one that tell me to go back to Africa as lam for myself. I'm fighin for all human beins to make this a great country for all of us. Q: The FDP is sort of a political approach here to solving the problems that exist in the country, SNCC, I guess, more of a grass roots approach, SCLC takes sort of a leadership 0491-14 approach and there are different approaches. Which one do you think Is most important or most effective in solving the problems that exist. A: Well I think, and I think millions of people would admit the same thing, that this is one of the greatest approaches, in fact this is one of the first things that's happenin in this country in the past one hundred years. So I think this political power in the state of Miss is the first thing really happenin in this country in the last one hundred yrs. You see the other type of leadership that we've had in this country has mostly been bourgeois in termsand... this guy that's al- ways had something, if you offer him a little more, quite naturally he gonna try to keep it and that makes a sellout and that kind of thing calls for these compromises. You see I'm really fed up in hearing the word'^ompromise'.' Irve got to get just a little tasteof what I supposed to have every bit of one hundred years ago. And that's the type of what this poli- tical power can not only do in Miss3.*but this would be extreme ly helpful if it was all over the country. For the first time in this country they would see these little people then. And if we have more of these people in the ghettos and the slums that we do of these middle class and that can be the turning point of this country. Cause it's just goona have to be some high political structures of this country changed. Cause... they been covering up and they been. . .scheaming. all this kind of stuff. And...you can't build nothing from a liar...you got to have something straight somewhere. And I think this will mean the turning point to this whole country. And there ain't nobody trying to overthrow the government either. Somebody want the government to be at least truthful. And that's gonna be one of the solutions to help solve some of the problems in this country. Q: What do you think the NAACP is doing to this end? What do you think they're to solve... A: Well the NAACP could 'nt have a better name cause at first I couldn't really seperate. I thought the National Associa- tion for the Advancement of Colored People, I thought which was remarkable. But bein involved in really knowin 'em I found it's the National Association for the Advancement of Certain People and that never did include the real folk that needed help. So they'll be tommin... they do some things every once in a while but now they will do some sellout jobs too. Cause right now... in the state of Miss. Charles Evers, is tryin to organize another party within the party which is called the Democratic Conference and all that's supposed to do is do away with the party that's called the Freedom Democratic Party. And you see these guys... it's ridiculous, they're educated men and still they're acting stupider that I would act. And see, they'll go to the North and make a lot of people. . .think they're real folk. And comin back here and ttDmmin, and doin whatever they can as long as they can make a dollar. And I know they do it be- cause Charles Evers, one day we was ridin, goin from Memphis to Chicago. And he asked me about working. And I'd been writin membership for the NAACP for quite a while. And he 0491-15 he said well if you will let us arrange all a your speakin engagements, you would be insured of two or three hundred dollars. You see that was to buy me out then and I would have to say what they want me to say. So that's the way I got to work, I have to stay without money. But that's the role they play. They like important roles and anyway they can squeeze themselves in the machine, just let them get In it. At the risk of their brothers neck, it's OK. And that's all. In Miss, the NAACP mean the National Association for the Advancement of Certain People and that didn't mean us. Q: The FDP was set up as a poorman's party and at the pre- sent time it's still almost entirely Negro. Do you think in the future it will become a party of both the white and the Negro?

A: I really believe that... One of the things in the state of Miss, that a lot of people don't realize, that there would be a lot of people working with us, white people that's afraid. I wouldn't a had the votes I had if I hadn't a got white votes too. But I was elected to Congress because we had people workin with us in areas, went into white neighborhoods and had the booths set up in them different places, that we know we got white votes. They wouldn't always be just an all Negro party. But they afraid to speak out cause they'd be pressured just like us. . . Q: Do you think it's going to be possible to get active white participation by the next convention in 1968? A: Well, I would hope we would. I'm not sure but I would hope we would have more participation with white. Because it's definitely open to white. Because any time I see a poor white person, I feel just as my heart reach out for that per- son just like it do a poor Negro.— Cause you see, once you have suffered from oppression, once you have been hungry and had to stay hungry, and know what it's like to be hungry and with- out clothes, then it doesn't matter about who the person is. When you see them sufferin you want to change it for them too. So I'm concerned about the poor white people just like I am the Negro. I'm not just fightin for the Negro in Miss., I'm fightin for the white too. Q: Have you had poor whites here who have come to the party at all? A: Well we have had, I never will forget one in particular thought the work I was doin was good. And he was with the Negro and as soon as the power structure seen the Negro and the young white fellow together, they went to this Negro woman's house and told her her husband and this white guy had been killed in a car wreck. You see they planned to kill them. They wasn't killed and they made it back home. And they was immediatelyaarres ted and carried to Indianola jail and charged with armed robbery. And I fought just as hard for one as I did for the other one. But when they got the white fellow out they 0491-16 sent him away from here. And they do whatever they can to keep the poor white person and the poor Negro from having any unity, . . .because some of the white realize that they been put in the trick bag just like we have. And they know if we join up together and start pushing for voter registration and start pushing for all the things that we could do together as people, it would be a tremendous effect on the state. Q: Yes, I'd like to know what your feelings were in Winona after what happened with Annell Ponder and the other people. I'd like to know what your feelings were after that. A: I just felt more determined that nothing in the world could stop me. I felt more stronger about working then, than I'd ever felt in my life. From the time that I began workin I never had a mind to stop but after that happened in Winona, I knew it wouldn't be anything that would stop me other than death. So now it's "Give me liberty or give me death." Q: Do you feel fear any more? A: At one time I would really face fear, but... the more I would think about it now I didn't have anything to hide, I hadn't done anything wrong, or nothing like that. So...some- time I would get just a real anger, why -do these people want to do these kind of things, because I want to do what's right... I don't have, I just don't have fear like this. Course I'm not goin to say that I would be one of the most nonviolent persons if they would... come around my house with some of these things that they've done. . .actually like they done in »62. I wouldn't tell nobody. I wouldn't tell the police. If I caught one of them snoopin around here with something, if I could drop him, God knows I'd drop him. And I'm bein honest. Q: How do you feel about going around the country fund raising? Does that tire you out? A: Well I get very tired sometimes and I meet sometimes, I meet real strange people. Like I had a real strange experi- ence in Belingham, Washington because that riot... was just in the boom at that time, and another place was Olympia, and then Seattle, they raised strange questions. But after while... at first I could feel upset, and then after while I began to not feel upset. I feel pity for these people because what people don'tt realize is not only is hate destrpyin me, it's destroyin that people that's hatin. Q: What kind of questions did they ask? A: You know, they asked, "wasn't the Freedom Democratic Party infiltrated with Communists and all this kind ofstuff. And I've never seen a Communist. . .And they just asked so many questions that I just finally told one guy, I finally told him because he was young, that I could understand you askin 0491-17 these stupid kind of questions if you was old, so many old hellions in this country, I said, being a young man I feel sorry for youbecause your_:mind is so narrow, it wouldn't even coordinate with you own big body, and it wouldn't. He was pitiful... really pitiful. Because he would ask such a wild strange stupid question. . .And by that time it got on me and it take a little while for me to recupe from that. But other than that I been goin around making great friends, some very nice people. There's some good people in this country. That's what give me strength to keep goin. Just like somewhere in Miss, whether he's afraid to speak out or not, , somebody here's good. Some of these white people, one day they'll speak out. And until that time I have to fight until he get the nerve to say, "We're gonna fight together." Q* What do you usually talk about when you go around fund raising.. Does it make any difference where you're speaking? Do you say the same thing to everybody? A: Well, sometime it take the same thing, and then sometime I talk just about the Freedom Democratic Party. And lots of time they askes about, they like to hear what go on in Miss. Q: Do you still have much time to work at all in this state? A: Not too much. I work though when I have a chance. Q: Would you rather fundraise or work in this state? A: I love home, I really love home, as bad as it is. I'd rather be here with my people. But sometime I like to go, but I like to be at home too. Q: Why do you think there are as many women involved in the Movement? It seems like the people who are most active are women. A: Well, you would understand it if you had lived in Miss, as a Negro. You would understand why. As much as Negro womens are precious, men could be in much more danger. If my husband had gone through or attempted 1/3 of what I've gone through he would have already been dead. So we understand why its more women involved. And until It's where thatmens can actu- ally speak out, there will be more women until they can speak out, but it's so dangerous .....if they beat me almost to death in jail, what do you think would happen to my husband? You have to live in Miss, as a Negro to understand why it's not more men, involved than there is. Q: They are getting more involved on the other level. A: Yes, they are, because the younger ones won't take what the old ones have taken. They're gonna be different, they're new. They definitely won't go through what the older people have gone through.