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submit Like Like By: David Neiwert Wednesday January 3, 2007 4:00 pm Tweet 1

CUNY PROTESTERS

Drop All Charges Against CUNY Students Protesting Petraeus

(David Neiwert blogs at Orcinus)

The elderly gentleman had a stack of file folders full of clippings he had obviously brought with him, and he thumbed through these on the table where he had taken a seat, waiting for my talk.

His clippings caught my eye, as did the man himself. The talk I was giving was to promote my most MYFDL RECOMMENDED DIARIES recent book, Strawberry Days: How Internment Destroyed a Japanese American Community, at the historic old Panama Hotel in Seattle's International District (this was in July of 2005). Most of the other patrons that evening were Japanese Americans; a number of them were elderly Nisei who had been Are Deaths Due to Lack of Health Insurance Seriously interned at "relocation centers" during World War II, and some of these were people I had interviewed in Underestimated? the process of writing the book. By: letsgetitdone 11 Comments Veterans Day 2013 This man, however, was an elderly Caucasian, and it was apparent shortly after finishing my brief talk, By: dakine01 1 Comments when I opened up the floor to questions, that he was there to defend the internment as justifiable. He Over Easy: Monday Science was obviously familiar with the arguments offered by such historical revisionists as Lillian Baker, David By: BoxTurtle 54 Comments Bowman, and Michelle Malkin, and proceeded to attack the book's thesis. 50 Organizations Seek Ban on Armed Drones I was somewhat prepared for this, and gladly answered his questions with what I think were accurate By: David Swanson 10 Comments and succinct responses that refuted his underlying assumptions (like most revisionists, he continually Attacks on Max Blumenthal's "Goliath" Escalate, Veer ignored the distinction between American citizens and Japanese nationals). I could see that the rest of into Wingnut Land the audience was growing agitated by his persistent willingness to assume their guilt as potential By: EdwardTeller 12 Comments traitors, the same assumption that resulted in their incarceration. Anti-Capitalist Meetup: Some Thoughts on Poverty

http://firedoglake.com/2007/01/03/some-dare-call-them-concentration-camps-pt-2/[11/11/2013 10:19:10 AM] Some Dare Call Them “Concentration Camps” (Pt. 2) | Firedoglake

and the Social Welfare State by NY Brit Expat He finally stepped in it, however, when he attacked my consistent use of the term "concentration By: Anti-Capitalist Meetup 0 Comments camps" to describe the so-called ten "relocation centers" that held some 120,000 internees. (There has been some ongoing discussion of exactly what terminology to use to describe the Japanese American Typhoon Haiyan Reports Coming In: 10,000 Dead in "internment"; currently, most historians favor using "internment camps" to describe the military camps Central Province that held a number of "enemy aliens" swept up in Justice Department arrests shortly after the outbreak By: wendydavis 24 Comments of war, while the "relocation centers" — a bureaucratic euphemism concocted by architects of the Sunday Train: Will We Be Ready for the Great 2017 evacuation — are more accurately described either in terms of the incarceration they represented, HSR Policy Unlock? either as "prison camps" or "concentration camps.") By: BruceMcF 2 Comments two jobs reports for October, 3rd quarter GDP, the "You shouldn't call them concentration camps," he said. "We weren't starving people to death or September LPS Mortgage Monitor and the MBA 3rd murdering them in gas chambers. Calling them that makes people think that's what went on there." Quarter Delinquency Survey By: rjs 1 Comments Well, I responded, what you're describing is properly called a death camp. "Concentration camp" was a Sunday Water Cooler: Happy Birthday Tommy term created, during the Boer War, to describe the mass prison camps the British erected to Facenda, Dave Loggins, Donna Fargo, and Greg incarcerate Boer families. It has been used consistently afterward to describe these kinds of Lake (ELP and King Crimson) arrangements, including by both Franklin Roosevelt and Attorney General Biddle, in official documents, By: dakine01 0 Comments to describe the Japanese American camps.

It was at this point, however, that several of the elderly internees in the audience nearly came out of their seats; they were shaking with anger.

"If that wasn't a concentration camp, I'd sure like to know what the hell it was," said one of them, a Nisei man. "I was there. I saw the armed guards in the watchtowers, the barbed wire." ADVERTISEMENT "That barbed wire was just a line in the sagebrush," the skeptic retorted. "You could have walked over it at any time."

"Yes, and we'd have been shot the moment we tried," said the Nisei. "You have no idea what we had to endure. You weren't there."

Other audience members jumped in, demanding to know how he could distort the reality of the camp experience of their own memories, especially as he tried to depict the camps essentially as vacation camps with golfing and nice schools. I let them argue for awhile — it was more of a verbal dogpile, actually — and then finally stepped in verbally and moved on to other questions and questioners. My elderly interlocutor, looking nonplussed, packed up his clippings and left.

The whole incident underscored for me the way we let invented terminologies disguise and distort the reality of the things we do. It's an easy way of softening it — because we just don't like looking that reality in the face.

We slaughter thousands of innocent Iraqi citizens in the process of dislodging their dictator, and call it "collateral damage." We stand by as thousands more are slaughtered in the name of ancient hatreds, in places like Rwanda and Darfur, and we name it "ethnic cleansing."

We've done it throughout history. We stole land from the native Americans and murdered them relentlessly, and called it "Manifest Destiny." We lynched thousands of African Americans under the rubric of an imagined threat of rape and called it "defending white womanhood," while driving out thousands more from our communities and calling it "defending our way of life."

And we put 120,000 people behind barbed wire under armed guard and called it a "relocation center." Nowadays, we have a new name for it: the "family detention center" or, better still, the utterly neutral "residential center."

Photo of Manzanar Relocation Center by Dorothea Lange, 1943.

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Like Like You like this.35,661 94 Responses to “Some Dare Call Them “Concentration Camps” (Pt. 2)”

January 3rd, 2007 at 4:01 pm 1 Firedoglake on Follow

http://firedoglake.com/2007/01/03/some-dare-call-them-concentration-camps-pt-2/[11/11/2013 10:19:10 AM] Some Dare Call Them “Concentration Camps” (Pt. 2) | Firedoglake

Fitz (pt. 2)!

January 3rd, 2007 at 4:03 pm 2 » More Firedoglake feeds Frankly, I’m amazed that a bigger stink hasn’t been made of the interment camps, uh, “immigration CHELSEA MANNING detention facilities, that are being built by Halliburton subsidiary KBR at a taxpayer cost of $385,000,000.

Then again, I shouldn’t be amazed since the press is also sitting on, among many, many other stories, the one about Cheney’s Halliburton, in 1995, actually selling nuclear technology to Iran, technology that we’re now using as a rationale for shaking our sabre at them.

And I wish that I could blame all this on the GOP but after the ‘04 Democratic National Convention in Boston, I can’t. Anyone remember them “freedom cages?”

Police state? What police state are you talkiing about comrade?

January 3rd, 2007 at 4:07 pm 3

Good one Twolf1. Lol.

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January 3rd, 2007 at 4:08 pm 4 UPCOMING FDL BOOK SALONS

I just did a quick tally of contributions in the comments and it is over $4,000.00!!!!!! I love you people. Keep up the great work.

January 3rd, 2007 at 4:09 pm 5

We are doomed (with this government) to repeat the sins of the past…

all of Gaza is a camp that we support wholeheartedly and so is Bagram and others in Afghanistan– how many must be detained, tortured and killed anyway before the bloodlust created by these neocons is slaked?

(thank you David for these posts which I will go back and read in detail.)

;(

January 3rd, 2007 at 4:12 pm 6 Saturday, November 16, 2013 angie @ 4 2:00 pm Pacific Crusader for Justice: Federal Judge Damon J. Keith We are doomed (with this government) to repeat the sins of the past… Chat with Trevor W. Coleman about his new book. Hosted by bmaz & Professor Kevin Jon Heller. all of Gaza is a camp that we support wholeheartedly and so is Bagram and others in Afghanistan– how many must be detained, tortured and killed anyway before the bloodlust created by these neocons is slaked?

(thank you David for these posts which I will go back and read in detail.)

;(

Santayana was an optimist.

Teddy Partridge January 3rd, 2007 at 4:13 pm 7

Hello again, David!

January 3rd, 2007 at 4:13 pm 8

Call it what you will, the results are the same. If the older gentleman had been put in one, he would have known exactly what to call it.

http://firedoglake.com/2007/01/03/some-dare-call-them-concentration-camps-pt-2/[11/11/2013 10:19:10 AM] Some Dare Call Them “Concentration Camps” (Pt. 2) | Firedoglake

Login to Reply Sunday, November 17, 2013 2:00 pm Pacific January 3rd, 2007 at 4:17 pm 9 Never Let a Serious Crisis Go to Waste: How Neoliberalism Survived the Financial Meltdown EPU’d. Cujo359 @ 68 Chat with Phillip Mirowski about his new book. Hosted by John Cavanagh. Richmond @ 66

O.T. but NOT. Huffington has up that 40,000 soldiers will be sent to TOOLBOX Iraq. We NEED to do something folks.

In an earlier post had suggested a Plan Zero. Here I modify it to Register Support this site! include a virtual dialing of 0 for Operator at 1:00PM on Tuesday. How Subscribe to the Advertise on about if we were to join forces with our brethren across red states (the newsletter Firedoglake 40% who are opposed to the war) ask that we each email our congress peole at that time, writing in the headding – Dial 0: Zero Send us your tips Make us your support at home 4 Iraq war escalation. Then CC this to their long homepage distance phone provider (virtual Operator call). If this makes sense (or About Firedoglake a version of it) how do we get it out there – in both blue and red states?

Shameless plug: I wrote about this yesterday. A summation of that essay is that I BLOG ROLL agree something needs to be done. This buildup plan is insane, and it’s just a sign that we’re going to be in Iraq until Bush is out of office unless Congress puts its foot the political carnival fallen monk down. god and country psotd Mrs. K8 also asked me what I meant by a Virtual Dialing Zero. When I suggested this earlier, left coaster night light someone (sorry can’t remember) said that actually dialing zero might pose problems for people, so world ‘o crap scotus blog my thought was we could name this a virtual calling zero, and simply email (CC) the call to the james wolcott seeing the forest phone company. Also, perhaps interesting in light of the Net Neutrality Issue. Any one who has other thoughts, I of course would be open. calculated risk pollster brad delong pam’s house blend Login to Reply tracy russo shakesville January 3rd, 2007 at 4:17 pm 10 open left dean baker norwegianity kung fu monkey Thank you, David. Very necessary review of a very sordid precedent. I just hope your citizenship connecticut bob talk left papers are in order before Gonzalez, Addison and Yoo read this. BreakTheMatrix laura rozen Login to Reply chase me ladies, i’m in whiskey fire the cavalry January 3rd, 2007 at 4:20 pm 11 mercury rising fired up missouri memeorandum I wonder what motivates people to deny the reality of the concentration camps. The old dude with first draft they gave us a republic his files and folders took a great deal of time and effort to come argue with people who knew first majikthise angry black bitch hand the effects of the internment. WTF is wrong with people? sisyphus shrugged mad kane’s political Login to Reply madness bilerico vinyl mine January 3rd, 2007 at 4:21 pm 12

I’d like to see this whole administration sent to a “residential center.” And I don’t mean a Moonie ranch sitting on an aquifer in Paraguay.

January 3rd, 2007 at 4:22 pm 13

Instead of coded dialing schemes, why don’t we just call the White House, McCain’s office, Lieberman’s office and Clinton’s office, state our objections and (maybe) overwhelm the telephone network.

Or do the same with CBS, NBC, ABC, Fox and CNN?

January 3rd, 2007 at 4:23 pm 14

They should be called Bush Camps for Bush’s War.

January 3rd, 2007 at 4:25 pm 15

Thank you, David. (just came home after an errand, catching up).

You are so right that words matter. RE-framing drives the way we think about things. See “surge”

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(what a stupid term for a military build-up) versus “escalation.” Or “death tax” for “estate tax.” Examples from just the last 6 yrs. could go on endlessly….

January 3rd, 2007 at 4:25 pm 16

Richmond –

Thanks for explaining. I’m still confused, but don’t mind me — I’ll keep reading and if you can point me to the original thread with your ideas (I’ve been unable to come here throughout Christmas and New Year’s), I’ll try to catch up.

Thanks again!

January 3rd, 2007 at 4:26 pm 17

Mrs. K8 – good to see you back!

Teddy Partridge January 3rd, 2007 at 4:26 pm 18

For anyone who’s not had their eyes opened to the struggles our fellow American citizens faced in their Pacific Northwestern communities during WW2, I unreservedly recommend David’s book Strawberry Days. Few books have included so much new information (to me) as well as utter humanity. Thank you for writing it, David.

January 3rd, 2007 at 4:27 pm 19

Kevin Hayden @ 12

Or do the same with CBS, NBC, ABC, Fox and CNN?

I think this sounds good! I would (maybe) add an option to email or fax. And why only those 3? I think Congress needs to hear this too. I think in practical terms, they are the only ones who can do something now before it is too late. (Too early for judiciary). My only point of the dial zero plan, was that it gives a frame to it. But, I am not partial to any one thing.

January 3rd, 2007 at 4:30 pm 20

Mary McCurnin @ 10

I wonder what motivates people to deny the reality of the concentration camps. The old dude with his files and folders took a great deal of time and effort to come argue with people who knew first hand the effects of the internment. WTF is wrong with people?

The same american exceptionalist mindset that makes white america deny the extermination of the indians, the murder of hundreds of thousands if not millions of african slaves on the middle passage and the murder of japanese civilians with atomic weapons despite japanese overtures looking to surrender.

Teddy Partridge January 3rd, 2007 at 4:31 pm 21

Kevin Hayden @ 12

Or do the same with CBS, NBC, ABC, Fox and CNN?

And with regard to timing, why not call the moment W begins his speech next Tuesday?

Also OfT: Did anyone else feel the excitement Debbie Wasserman Schultz (D-FL) brought to

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Hardball today? If it’s rerun in your time zone, don’t miss it. The accompanying Texas GOP Congresslady literally lost her way trying to keep up with Debbie. As my fiance said, “It’s so refreshing to hear a politician answer questions with YES or NO the way Debbie does!”

… oh, and: Troops Home NOW

January 3rd, 2007 at 4:31 pm 22

Mrs. K8 @ 15

Richmond –

Thanks again!

What I had originally said was that we need to do something. How about if Tuesday at 1:00 (all time zones are up) everyone dialed O for operator and emailed their Congresspeople saying there is zero support for this war expansion. Someone responded that some people need to be able to dial O. While we have 911 and 411, I don’t want to have medical problems because of this, so, I thought it might be a virtual dial zero (email the phone company). I bet we could get alot of people from the Right in on this, because 75% of all Americans are now against the war and 40% of Pentecostalists voted Dem. Plus we joined forces with them on Net Neutrality, so it can be effective.

January 3rd, 2007 at 4:33 pm 23

TeddySanFran @ 20

And with regard to timing, why not call the moment W begins his speech next Tuesday?

… oh, and: Troops Home NOW

I don’t know when the speech is supposed to begin, if it is a time when everyone is up (Calif) then, that sounds great.

January 3rd, 2007 at 4:34 pm 24

Kevin Hayden @ 12

Or do the same with CBS, NBC, ABC, Fox and CNN?

I like the idea of calling the White House.

(Especially since our cell phone service comes through Working Assets, which has the White House and Congressional switchboard numbers conveniently pre-programmed into their customer cell phones.

A funny bit happened over the holidays regarding the WH number — Mr. K8 lost our cell phone while digging through piles of fresh Christmas trees on Dec 22nd [we got a splendid tree for a $5 close- out price!].

Whoever found our phone did not return it to us by dialing the number marked “home”, but instead placed one local call and one long distance call — to the White House! Undoubtedly by pressing the pre-programmed WH dialing choice. All that night we kept wondering what the cell phone bandit said to the White House operator — and if we’d be getting a knock on the door from the S.S. in the middle of the night. No jackboots arrived. Instead we got a brand new phone overnighted to us from Working Assets — this one with WH and Congress phone numbers AND a cell phone camera. So now we’re ready to capture footage at the next Iraq War protest we attend. A happy result!)

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January 3rd, 2007 at 4:34 pm 25

Sorry David, Don’t mean to hijack – yours, as I mentioned in the last post, is a VERY important (and painful) topic.

January 3rd, 2007 at 4:35 pm 26

Bush’s WSJ op-ed is another example of invented terminologies and invented discourse. Step One is to ignore the reality or call it something else. Step Two is to trot out your own discredited agenda again pretending no one will notice. Step Three is to characterize your agenda as bipartisan and their agenda as partisan. Step Four is to make clear that you are going to blame the other side for all of your failures past, present, and future.

January 3rd, 2007 at 4:37 pm 27

tejanarusa @ 16

Mrs. K8 – good to see you back!

{{{{{ smooch to you — and all beloved Firepups! }}}}}}

January 3rd, 2007 at 4:40 pm 28

TeddySanFran @ 20

Also OfT: Did anyone else feel the excitement Debbie Wasserman Schultz (D-FL) brought to Hardball today?

It is refreshing to see a Democrat to stay focused and on message. I hope it is the beginning of a trend.

Teddy Partridge January 3rd, 2007 at 4:40 pm 29

Words matter.

I’m happy to learn the genesis of “concentration camps” as it roots the activity being done in our name in our country to our citizens right now, today. Astonishing as it seems, it has begun. The success, so far, of the corporatist state’s corporate patrons at home and abroad makes me despair.

But, then I recall: tomorrow is new day, belonging to oversight, sunshine, and renewal! As dates ring down in history, I believe 11/7/06 will be a long-remembered date.

January 3rd, 2007 at 4:42 pm 30

David –

You are completely right about the urgent need to call a spade a spade. No more fudging around with euphemisms — about ANYTHING.

For instance, I like John Edwards’ insistence on using the word ESCALATION (and not that disgustingly universally-accepted-by-MSM term “surge”).

And I want to see everyone discussing private managment of prisons — in addition to these obscene new concentration camps — use the term CONFLICT OF INTEREST everytime the subject arises.

People who make money off locking up other human beings have a fundamental CONFLICT OF INTEREST in any democratic society.

Teddy Partridge January 3rd, 2007 at 4:43 pm 31

Hugh @ 27

TeddySanFran @ 20

http://firedoglake.com/2007/01/03/some-dare-call-them-concentration-camps-pt-2/[11/11/2013 10:19:10 AM] Some Dare Call Them “Concentration Camps” (Pt. 2) | Firedoglake

Also OfT: Did anyone else feel the excitement Debbie Wasserman Schultz (D-FL) brought to Hardball today?

It is refreshing to see a Democrat to stay focused and on message. I hope it is the beginning of a trend.

The contrast with Steny Hoyer could not have been greater. He’s not up to the teevee task, methinks. Very bad examples of repeatedly using GOP frames for our own issues. He needs to watch tapes of Wasserman Schultz — she’s a pro.

January 3rd, 2007 at 4:44 pm 32

There’s been some talk on the left blogosphere about government internment camps, to be run by FEMA, with particular reference to a converted railyard in Beach Grove, IN.

Take a look here, for example:

http://www.answers.com/topic/f…..ent-agency

January 3rd, 2007 at 4:44 pm 33

Would it be possbile to grab a areial shot of these camps from Google Earth and put it on a blog?

January 3rd, 2007 at 4:46 pm 34

I have long admired Debbie Wasserman Schultz and her focused energy, even before she took part in the great Rubber Stamp protest on the floor of the House.

However, I have a new question about her — someone told me that she’s on the anti-Chavez bandwagon, loudly calling him a foe of the U.S.

Can anyone confirm this?

January 3rd, 2007 at 4:50 pm 35

Mrs. K8 @ 34

I have long admired Debbie Wasserman Schultz and her focused energy, even before she took part in the great Rubber Stamp protest on the floor of the House.

However, I have a new question about her — someone told me that she’s on the anti- Chavez bandwagon, loudly calling him a foe of the U.S.

Can anyone confirm this?

well, Mrs. K8, I think Pres. Chavez would describe himself that way, don’t you? At least, he’s surely a foe of this U.S. government (as are we, n’est-ce pas?)

January 3rd, 2007 at 4:51 pm 36

klyde @ 19

Mary McCurnin @ 10

was doing a bit of family history 1929 newspapers Mississippi… one of the filler paragraphs (newspapers arrived by steamboat with most national news prepared, and there were little empty boxes for the local news insertions)… on the state inserts pages found a paragraph on national lynchings, down two or three from previous years, state lynchings holding steady… NO EDITORIAL OR EMOTIONAL REACTIONS… another paragraph in the county pages…… tick eradication nearly

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successful due to superb efforts of University agriculture efforts Couldn’t believe… in 1929 the comfort level of the cattle, tick eradication elicited more enthusiasm than lynching statistics??? oh, yeah, Hoover refused to change the banking regulations, and each weekly newspaper listed bank closures…

empathy, humanity, maybe we’re not such a sophisticated culture as we’d like to think???

January 3rd, 2007 at 4:54 pm 37

tejanarusa –

The person who told me this about Debbie was not meaning it in the sense you and I would, but rather that she was calling for censure of Hugo Chavez and heightened monitoring of the “dangers” he represents to the U.S.

I was so very surprised to hear that. The person then went on to say that Debbie has a strong anti- Castro bent, too. Perhaps as a result of her constituents’ sentiments?

I don’t know, I’m just asking. It was such a surprise to me. I would go off and google up as much as possible, but I barely have time to stop in here and talk with you wonderful Pups, let alone go off to do research — as much as I would love to.

So I just figured with all the smarter folks here, maybe someone here knows the truth of this.

January 3rd, 2007 at 4:54 pm 38

Mrs. K8 @ 34

I have long admired Debbie Wasserman Schultz and her focused energy, even before she took part in the great Rubber Stamp protest on the floor of the House.

However, I have a new question about her — someone told me that she’s on the anti- Chavez bandwagon, loudly calling him a foe of the U.S.

Can anyone confirm this?

You’re correct. Florida equals the Cuban PACs equals irrational Castro hate equals irrational guy who holds Castro’s hand hate.

Back from Doc – got cast removed – and interview of fantastic Icelandic clarinet player, and apparently missed Dave Niewert. Damn, can’t have enough of the great authors who show up here!

And hugs! Good to see ya…

January 3rd, 2007 at 4:57 pm 39

Have to admit, I have no idea where Debbie Wasserman Schultz is from – guessing from above it’s a Florida district? So, this may be something she needs to do for her voters? (just trying out a theory). I’d have to do more research, too, but am involved in something now –keeping alt-tab-bing back and forth to follow this discussion . Yup, I’m addicted to FDL.

January 3rd, 2007 at 4:59 pm 40

Mrs. K8 @ 29

David –

You are completely right about the urgent need to call a spade a spade. No more fudging around with euphemisms — about ANYTHING.

…And I want to see everyone discussing private managment of prisons — in addition to these obscene new concentration camps — use the term CONFLICT OF INTEREST everytime the subject arises.

People who make money off locking up other human beings have a fundamental CONFLICT OF INTEREST in any democratic society.

okay, if a spade is to be called a spade, People who make money off locking up other human beings are slaveholders.

http://firedoglake.com/2007/01/03/some-dare-call-them-concentration-camps-pt-2/[11/11/2013 10:19:10 AM] Some Dare Call Them “Concentration Camps” (Pt. 2) | Firedoglake

January 3rd, 2007 at 4:59 pm 41

Edward Teller –

Thanks for settling the question! That takes a bit of the sheen off my image of Debbie, that’s for sure. Oh well, I guess whatever GOOD she can do in supporting other aspects of our agenda is still a plus. Still, it’s a disappointment. Are all Florida Dems successfully held hostage this way, too?

I didn’t know about your injury — I’m happy that whatever it was is better now! And hope you and your family had happy holidays!!! Take good care of yourself — no more boo-boos, OK?

January 3rd, 2007 at 5:04 pm 42

Mrs K8 #30,

From the Bush to English dictionary

Iraq equals Viet Nam

Surge equals escalation

Sectarian plus noun (strife, conflict, violence) equals civil war

Adapt tactics equals stay the course

Terrorist/extremist equals anyone who disagrees with him

Victory equals defeat

Progress equals failure

Way Forward equals way backwards

Listening to his generals equals telling them what to do

Iraqi government equals sectarian political parties (see militias)

Iraqi army and security forces equals militias (see sectarian political parties)

Partisanship (Republicans in control) equals the normal way to do things

Bipartisanship (Republicans in control) equals the Republicans plus Joseph Lieberman

Bipartisanship (Democrats in control) equals pursuing the Republican agenda

Partisanship (Democrats in control) equals unnatural state where Democrats pursue their own agenda

And the list goes on.

January 3rd, 2007 at 5:07 pm 43

angie @ 5

We are doomed (with this government) to repeat the sins of the past…

(thank you David for these posts which I will go back and read in detail.)

;(

The conditions in Gaza are something beyond comprehension. Thanks for the reminder.

January 3rd, 2007 at 5:08 pm 44

Hugh –

That’s a handy little translation glossary you’ve got going. Thanks!

Should I ever again decide to listen/watch Dear Leader over the airwaves again, I should print it out and have it handy.

http://firedoglake.com/2007/01/03/some-dare-call-them-concentration-camps-pt-2/[11/11/2013 10:19:10 AM] Some Dare Call Them “Concentration Camps” (Pt. 2) | Firedoglake

Like maybe for this year’s State of the Union. That should be a hoot of an occasion. Maybe the Disney Corporation should think of adapting it for a new amusement park ride — Psychopathology on Parade!

January 3rd, 2007 at 5:10 pm 45

John Dean speaking on Countdown now. Off to watch!

January 3rd, 2007 at 5:16 pm 46

Great series, David, thanks.

(Jane, I think I’m ready for that copy of Strawberry Days now.)

January 3rd, 2007 at 5:21 pm 47

MEDIA MATTERS ‘Assassination’ schedule announced for Congress Radio-show host says leaders won’t be allowed to ‘betray’ nation

In a statement on his website, Hal Turner noted that a newspaper has reported that a bill granting amnesty to illegal aliens is expected to be enacted in January, when the Democratic Party takes control of the U.S. Senate and House.

“ANY MEMBER OF CONGRESS WHO INTRODUCES, CO-SPONSORS OR VOTES IN FAVOR OF ANY SUCH AMNESTY WILL BE DECLARED A DOMESTIC ENEMY AND WILL BE CONSIDERED A LEGITIMATE TARGET FOR ASSASSINATION,” Turner posted on his website.

http://www.wnd.com/news/articl…..E_ID=53245

January 3rd, 2007 at 5:22 pm 48

You could try to bring this up with Bush, but I doubt that he’s even heard of Manzanar or even of the Japanese internment. You could try to bring it up with the Republicans on their last day in charge of Congress, but they are too busy with a last minute frenzy of plunder gathering.

In a bit of irony, those buildings in the photo later were moved and used as housing for low ranking Navy enlisted families.

January 3rd, 2007 at 5:22 pm 49

On NPR – the Thomas Jefferson copy of the Koran to be borrowed by Congressman Ellison tomorrow was acquired by Jefferson around 1765. He referred to the Koran in subsequent correpondence regarding his ideas on theories of laws and constitutions.

What a guy, Jefferson. What a guy Ellison. What a country, the USA!

January 3rd, 2007 at 5:24 pm 50

Oklahoma kiddo @ 47

MEDIA MATTERS ‘Assassination’ schedule announced for Congress Radio-show host says leaders won’t be allowed to ‘betray’ nation

yikes. that goes way beyond first amendment freedom of expression.

January 3rd, 2007 at 5:24 pm 51

How in the world does Olbermann get away with speaking the truth?

http://firedoglake.com/2007/01/03/some-dare-call-them-concentration-camps-pt-2/[11/11/2013 10:19:10 AM] Some Dare Call Them “Concentration Camps” (Pt. 2) | Firedoglake

January 3rd, 2007 at 5:25 pm 52

I have longOklahoma kiddo @ 46

MEDIA MATTERS ‘Assassination’ schedule announced for Congress Radio-show host says leaders won’t be allowed to ‘betray’ nation

http://www.wnd.com/news/articl…..E_ID=53245

I have long wondered why this sort of thing, as with Ann Coulter, doesn’t bring the FCC to remove the licences of stations. That would put a stop to things. And, isn’t FCC under Congressional jurisdiction? Dem’s are in majority now. I hope this is the number 101 item on their list.

January 3rd, 2007 at 5:28 pm 53

Oklahoma kiddo @ 50

How in the world does Olbermann get away with speaking the truth?Ed*ard Teller @ 48

What a guy, Jefferson. What a guy Ellison. What a country, the USA!

Governor Patrick (Mass) is swearing in on a bible which was on the slave ship that mutineed for its freedom; This bible was in John Adams collection. Interesting – Jefferson and Adams – to arch enemies, both figure this year in striking historical leadership positions. Religious and personal liberty figuring prominently in both contemporary bible uses.

January 3rd, 2007 at 5:29 pm 54

OT: our pals Swopa and Skippy are cited above the fold at the Daou Report

January 3rd, 2007 at 5:29 pm 55

punaise @ 50

Oklahoma kiddo @ 47

MEDIA MATTERS ‘Assassination’ schedule announced for Congress Radio-show host says leaders won’t be allowed to ‘betray’ nation

yikes. that goes way beyond first amendment freedom of expression.

but, punaise, his defense is:

“You called the FBI about me? BIG DEAL! One can only illegally ‘incite’ violence when what is said is uttered in a context which lends itself to IMMINENT lawlessness. I will not be arrested because I have thus far committed no crime. Just because you don’t understand the subtle delineations of the law does not mean I have broken the law. The FBI has been receiving reports about me from morons like you for six years. I’m still here. Give me a chuckle!”

January 3rd, 2007 at 5:31 pm 56

OT John Negroponte will resign as intelligence czar to become deputy Secretary of State.

http://firedoglake.com/2007/01/03/some-dare-call-them-concentration-camps-pt-2/[11/11/2013 10:19:10 AM] Some Dare Call Them “Concentration Camps” (Pt. 2) | Firedoglake

http://www.nytimes.com/aponlin…..r=homepage

January 3rd, 2007 at 5:31 pm 57

Mistake at 53. (Grim). Meant to say two religious books, not to suggest the Koran is a Bible. My bad. :-(

January 3rd, 2007 at 5:34 pm 58

Ed*ard Teller @ 55

but, punaise, his defense is:

is that an actual quote, or you improvising? either way, something’s wrong if you can threaten a Congresscritter with assassination and then revert to “oops! just kidding! my bad!”

January 3rd, 2007 at 5:37 pm 59

OT – Raw Story – NYT THURSDAY: KEY SENATE DEMOCRATS WARMING TO BUSH’S PLAN TO INCREASE TROOPS…. DEVELOPING….

January 3rd, 2007 at 5:38 pm 60

Ed*ard Teller @ 49

What a guy, Jefferson. What a guy Ellison. What a country, the USA!

A great guy that jefferson was. If you discount his owning 200 human beings and keeping them in deplorable conditions. Well not the one he was raping regularly but the rest.

January 3rd, 2007 at 5:40 pm 61

punaise @ 58

Ed*ard Teller @ 55

but, punaise, his defense is:

is that an actual quote, or you improvising? either way, something’s wrong if you can threaten a Congresscritter with assassination and then revert to “oops! just kidding! my bad!”

I was sorely tempted to play with it to appear as a personal threat to you, my dear friend, but it is a quote from this:

http://www.wnd.com/news/articl…..E_ID=53245

OT – can we now change our references to RGJoe to Joe Lieberman (X-CT4L)?

http://firedoglake.com/2007/01/03/some-dare-call-them-concentration-camps-pt-2/[11/11/2013 10:19:10 AM] Some Dare Call Them “Concentration Camps” (Pt. 2) | Firedoglake

January 3rd, 2007 at 5:41 pm 62

Negroponte should be prosecuted for his murderous activities in Guatemala and Honduras in the 70’s. I was in those countries at the time and this was a hated and feared man down there.

January 3rd, 2007 at 5:41 pm 63

twolf1 @ 59

OT – Raw Story – NYT THURSDAY: KEY SENATE DEMOCRATS WARMING TO BUSH’S PLAN TO INCREASE TROOPS…. DEVELOPING….

Holy Shit, Guys. This is rally time. I am appalled.

January 3rd, 2007 at 5:43 pm 64

Richmond @ 63

twolf1 @ 59

OT – Raw Story – NYT THURSDAY: KEY SENATE DEMOCRATS WARMING TO BUSH’S PLAN TO INCREASE TROOPS…. DEVELOPING….

Holy Shit, Guys. This is rally time. I am appalled.

don’t jump to conclusions, Raw tends to be misleading with it’s developing headlines (ie – the whole ‘bush snorted coke on live tv’ from this AM). They could just mean Lieberman and Hillary, and that would be expected behavior and not so shocking. but we will see…

January 3rd, 2007 at 5:43 pm 65

klyde @ 60

Ed*ard Teller @ 49

What a guy, Jefferson. What a guy Ellison. What a country, the USA!

A great guy that jefferson was. If you discount his owning 200 human beings and keeping them in deplorable conditions. Well not the one he was raping regularly but the rest.

I don’t think anyone here is about to discount that. What’s your point? If you pass the test, I might loan you the keys to my buddy’s time machine…

January 3rd, 2007 at 5:44 pm 66

Don’t get too far out on that limb about FEMA detention camps. Most of the web stuff on FEMA detention camps is tinfoil BS. Not to say that we need a full blast of cleansing sunshine beamed onto FEMA’s budgets, and I have less than zero confidence as to the good intentions of the current administration, but FEMA detention camps being built are right next door to the black helicopters are flying over my house sort of stuff.

January 3rd, 2007 at 5:45 pm 67

Oklahoma kiddo @ 62

Negroponte should be prosecuted for his murderous activities in Guatemala and Honduras in the 70’s. I was in those countries at the time and this was a hated and feared man down there.

http://firedoglake.com/2007/01/03/some-dare-call-them-concentration-camps-pt-2/[11/11/2013 10:19:10 AM] Some Dare Call Them “Concentration Camps” (Pt. 2) | Firedoglake

Amazing how many vampires this Administration contains.

January 3rd, 2007 at 5:47 pm 68

Ed*ard Teller @ 65

klyde @ 60

Ed*ard Teller @ 49

What a guy, Jefferson. What a guy Ellison. What a country, the USA!

A great guy that jefferson was. If you discount his owning 200 human beings and keeping them in deplorable conditions. Well not the one he was raping regularly but the rest.

I don’t think anyone here is about to discount that. What’s your point? If you pass the test, I might loan you the keys to my buddy’s time machine…

So by your thinking there was nothing wrong with jefferson owning slaves and repeatedly raping one of them because it was over 200 years ago. OK I’m down with that kemo sabi.

January 3rd, 2007 at 5:47 pm 69

Ed*ard Teller @ 61

I was sorely tempted to play with it to appear as a personal threat to you, my dear friend, but it is a quote from this:

http://www.wnd.com/news/articl…..E_ID=53245

thanks, ET, I am reassured now. ‘cuz this sure doesn’t read like incitement:

“This seems to be ‘it’ folks. I’m going to do what I have to do to protect my nation from its government. I know where all of my New Jersey Congressmen and Senators live. Do you know where yours live? If not, you better find out before January so you can scope out their neighborhoods and prepare yourselves,” he said.

“Those of you who, for years, have said you’re ‘gonna do this’ or ‘gonna do that’ when the time comes; are about to face ugly reality. In January, ‘the time’ will come. In January the entire world will find out if you’re real or just a bigmouth coward,” he said.

January 3rd, 2007 at 5:48 pm 70

Hugh @ 56

OT John Negroponte will resign as intelligence czar to become deputy Secretary of State.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponlin…..r=homepage

Hope that isn’t Step 1 in setting the stage for Cheney to resign, Rice to take over the VP spot, and Negroponte to bump up to SecState…

…then again, those hearings might be some kinda fun now that the grownups aren’t in charge.

January 3rd, 2007 at 5:48 pm 71

These camps are, of course, part of the legacy of Franklin Roosevelt and Earl Warren. The only difficulty I have with calling them “concentration camps” is that that term has come to be associated with camps where people were tortured and murdered by the millions, subjected to ghastly medical experimentation, and literally worked to death. The use of such a loaded term to describe FDR’s own abomination seems a bit farfetched. They were awful in their own right–why import a terminology

http://firedoglake.com/2007/01/03/some-dare-call-them-concentration-camps-pt-2/[11/11/2013 10:19:10 AM] Some Dare Call Them “Concentration Camps” (Pt. 2) | Firedoglake

that seems deliberately calculated to mislead?

January 3rd, 2007 at 5:48 pm 72

President Carter on Olbermann speaking at Ford’s funeral. Carter. A truly remarkable man.

January 3rd, 2007 at 5:48 pm 73

Yea, that’s what he meant when he said, “no one discounts that”.

klyde @ 68

Ed*ard Teller @ 65

klyde @ 60

Ed*ard Teller @ 49

What a guy, Jefferson. What a guy Ellison. What a country, the USA!

A great guy that jefferson was. If you discount his owning 200 human beings and keeping them in deplorable conditions. Well not the one he was raping regularly but the rest.

I don’t think anyone here is about to discount that. What’s your point? If you pass the test, I might loan you the keys to my buddy’s time machine…

So by your thinking there was nothing wrong with jefferson owning slaves and repeatedly raping one of them because it was over 200 years ago. OK I’m down with that kemo sabi.

January 3rd, 2007 at 5:50 pm 74

watch your zigs, please

January 3rd, 2007 at 5:50 pm 75

lestatdelc @ 66

Not to say that we need a full blast of cleansing sunshine beamed onto FEMA’s budgets

Ugh… should say:

Not to say that we don’t need a full blast of cleansing sunshine beamed onto FEMA’s budgets

(i.e. we need to be fully transparent with FEMA budgets)

January 3rd, 2007 at 6:01 pm 76

raven @ 72

Yea, that’s what he meant when he said, “no one discounts that”.

klyde @ 68

Ed*ard Teller @ 65

http://firedoglake.com/2007/01/03/some-dare-call-them-concentration-camps-pt-2/[11/11/2013 10:19:10 AM] Some Dare Call Them “Concentration Camps” (Pt. 2) | Firedoglake

klyde @ 60

Ed*ard Teller @ 49

What a guy, Jefferson. What a guy Ellison. What a country, the USA!

A great guy that jefferson was. If you discount his owning 200 human beings and keeping them in deplorable conditions. Well not the one he was raping regularly but the rest.

I don’t think anyone here is about to discount that. What’s your point? If you pass the test, I might loan you the keys to my buddy’s time machine…

So by your thinking there was nothing wrong with jefferson owning slaves and repeatedly raping one of them because it was over 200 years ago. OK I’m down with that kemo sabi.

Then why bring up the time machine?

You’re free to deify jefferson as much as you wish. But as long as I’m alive I will continue to remind people that while writing about the liberty jefferson held over 200 human beings, people who probably looked a lot like me and my family, in debased and abject slavery. To maintain his lifestyle he continued to hold them in slavery long after he came to realize that slavery was wrong. If some want to say “well it was 200 years ago” that’s fine also. I’ll just remind them that jefferson’s contemporary John Adams never owned a slave and deplored the practice.

January 3rd, 2007 at 6:01 pm 77

FYI Since the State laws on slavery had significantly stiffened between the death of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson twenty-seven years later (as Jefferson had observed in 1814, “the laws do not permit us to turn them loose” 44), Jefferson was unable to do what Washington had done in freeing his slaves. However, Jefferson had gone well above and beyond other slave owners in that era in that he actually paid his slaves for the vegetables they raised and for the meat they obtained while hunting and fishing. Additionally, he paid them for extra tasks they performed outside their normal working hours and even offered a revolutionary profit sharing plan for the products that his enslaved artisans produced in their shops. 45

Washington Jefferson and Slavery

January 3rd, 2007 at 6:01 pm 78

twolf1 – thanks for the point on Raw.

January 3rd, 2007 at 6:02 pm 79

What a guy, Jefferson. What a guy Ellison. What a country, the USA!

A great guy that jefferson was. If you discount his owning 200 human beings and keeping them in deplorable conditions. Well not the one he was raping regularly but

http://firedoglake.com/2007/01/03/some-dare-call-them-concentration-camps-pt-2/[11/11/2013 10:19:10 AM] Some Dare Call Them “Concentration Camps” (Pt. 2) | Firedoglake

the rest.

I don’t think anyone here is about to discount that. What’s your point? If you pass the test, I might loan you the keys to my buddy’s time machine..

So by your thinking there was nothing wrong with jefferson owning slaves and repeatedly raping one of them because it was over 200 years ago. OK I’m down with that kemo sabi.

Then why bring up the time machine?

routine ziggurat maintenance

January 3rd, 2007 at 6:02 pm 80

Richmond @ 78

twolf1 – thanks for the point on Raw.

no prob Richmond.

new thread

January 3rd, 2007 at 6:03 pm 81

Hi Mrs. K8… DFA/PDA meeting on the 10th… come and join us!

I worked with a nurse whose parents met and married in the internment camps in Weizer, ID. The family stayed there following their release but I learned from her so many of the sad stories of how Americans have treated our own citizens.

When I was stationed in Greece, fellow dependent wife was born and lived in the displaced person camps following WWII until she was 7yrs old. Her parents were Italian Jews and were the only two of both families who survived the German Concentration Camps then to be paced in the DP camp when they attempted to reach Israel. They lived there almost 9 years and were only released when her father obtained employment at the American Base in Southern Italy.

Displaced Person Camps

January 3rd, 2007 at 6:04 pm 82

Here in Utah we had Topaz.

TOPAZ

Japanese American WWII Internment Camp

The internment of Americans of Japanese ancestry during WWII was one of the worst violations of civil rights in the history of the United States. The government and the US Army, citing “military necessity”, locked up over 110,000 men, women, and children in 10 remote camps. These Americans were never convicted or even charged with any crime, yet were incarcerated for up to 4 years in prison camps surrounded by barbed wire and armed guards.

I’ve actually been out there. Mostly just foundations and some barbed wire now. Remote. Strangely beautiful in a western way. But I wouldn’t want to be forced to live out there.

January 3rd, 2007 at 6:07 pm 83

LOL just watched (on Olbermann) Cindy Sheehan and friends pull Rahm Emanual’s pants down (so to speak) while he was trying to hold a press conference.

http://firedoglake.com/2007/01/03/some-dare-call-them-concentration-camps-pt-2/[11/11/2013 10:19:10 AM] Some Dare Call Them “Concentration Camps” (Pt. 2) | Firedoglake

January 3rd, 2007 at 6:10 pm 84

Just south of where I live in Phoenix is the German POW camp. What a great thing to put a bunch of Germans in the Desert!

January 3rd, 2007 at 6:14 pm 85

Fredo @ 71

The author addressed that very question in the previous post, one thread back.

January 3rd, 2007 at 6:19 pm 86

Didn’t the government recently apologize for this interment? If so, why would they do it all over again? Oh right, George Bush.

January 3rd, 2007 at 7:42 pm 87

The important take away here is that the modern fascist movement is not a movement of young brownshirts. It’s a movement of angry and dangerously misinformed senior citizens. It’s the O’reilly demographic writ large.

January 3rd, 2007 at 7:43 pm 88

Late to the conversation (which now seems to be over) again. Thank you, David, for bringing this up. The internment of Japanese-American citizens and residents remains a disgrace to our history, and it amazes me how people continue to pretend it wasn’t so bad (as if downtown LA had not been built on land basically stolen from Japanese-Americans forced to sell when they were interned). More than thirty years ago, my very own grandmother (a housewife who had nothing to do with national security or policy) said to me, defensively, that she had visited the Santa Anita racetracks, and they weren’t such a bad place for the interned families to live. The horse-stalls were pretty sizable and comfortable, she said. This from a woman who felt that every person should have their own private bathroom in a house. I loved her and all, but I could not believe what I was hearing. I’m appalled to find that there are still people saying this kind of thing. Thanks for bringing it to our attention. I hope there can be enough of an outcry to bring justice to the current internment of people into the modern concentration camps.

January 3rd, 2007 at 8:05 pm 89

Back in ‘88 I drove across the country and made a stop in the Lolo Natl. Forest in ID. There was a ranger in the info. booth and we got into a conversation. I don’t remember what tribe he was from but he couldn’t have been much older than 30. He said that when he was a kid, the teachers in the schools would beat them if they spoke a word of their native language. Essentially the language was beaten out of them.

A visit to the Pipestone Natl. Monument in MN will also tell the tale of the same kind of school. There, the kids were stolen from their parents, taken to the school, de-loused, had their hair cut short (a real desecration for Native Americans) and had english beaten into them as well. I can’t tell you how somber and shameful it felt to see the pictures and read the stories.

I wonder if our country has ever been what we like to think it is. Having trouble finding the ideals we keep trying to export to more “backwards” countries.

January 3rd, 2007 at 8:59 pm 90

http://firedoglake.com/2007/01/03/some-dare-call-them-concentration-camps-pt-2/[11/11/2013 10:19:10 AM] Some Dare Call Them “Concentration Camps” (Pt. 2) | Firedoglake

… you know, at some level, a bit of the satisfaction Bushco gets in the new Camps is that dastardly Clinton and his Interior Secretary, Bruce Babbitt, made at least one of the Japanese internment camps into National Monuments to commemorate the delusions of the empowered and the suffering of the imprisoned -like here in Idaho at Minidoka

So bringing back concentration/internment camps also gives these sickos an extra rush in mocking and undoing efforts of only a few years ago to elevate consciousness so that this would never again happen on American soil …

January 4th, 2007 at 2:34 am 91

Rev Deb — The entire process of Indian “boarding Schools” was a violent destruction of a young Native’s access to their culture, specifically designed to eliminate generational transition. Imagine the parents being forced to watch their kids taken away violently, then imagine the kids taken. A scar of horror for life.

while it’s a very dark episode in US history, thankfully it failed. But the scars remain.

January 4th, 2007 at 8:49 am 92

I use very specific terms when describing these kinds of things because it matters. I have a friend whose Mother ( from Ireland) cals te potato famine of the 1840;s the Irish Holocaust. Well, the Brits, though they allowed the mass starvation to kill millions, did not actually cause the famine. I know most peole do not read and do not know history so it is very important not to mix everything together. If you do, nothing has meaning.

Yes, I think you playing it a little loose when you say – hey the concentration camp term was created during the Boer War therefore its use for both the German lagers and for the camps the US hamefully put Japenese citizens in is accurate. Why not the Soviet Gulags? The point is, does it make a proper distinction so that people understand the differences? Let’s add an example – was Andersonville just a POW camp during the Civil War? Or a death camp like what the Nazis put Russian soldiers in to starve them to death? The American Jewish GIs captured and sent to Belsen were in a death camp, a work camp, or a POW camp? Yes, the distinction matters. Everytime I hear some idiot say even Hitler supported the Geneva conventions I want to puke.

Looking for disctinctions in terms is not to belittle anyhting. “Ethnic cleansing” as opposed to “genocide” mean very different things. I think language matters and when you try to say everything is equal, and start emliminating language, it sounds to me like a call to laziness. Let;s not be lazy. Let’s be better.

January 4th, 2007 at 8:51 am 93

and yes, spelling matters. But I gotta go.

January 4th, 2007 at 12:14 pm 94

“If that wasn’t a concentration camp, I’d sure like to know what the hell it was,” said one of them, a Nisei man. “I was there. I saw the armed guards in the watchtowers, the barbed wire.”

The Cherokee are also familiar with this sort of camp, having been herded by the thousands into many of them in Georgia and Tennessee just prior to America’s first great experiment in “ethnic cleansing,” the Trail of Tears.

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