Tuesday Volume 550 11 September 2012 No. 41

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 11 September 2012

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2012 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 117 11 SEPTEMBER 2012 118

Chancellor go back to his Department and ensure that House of Commons the payments are made as a matter of urgency and within the current tax year? Tuesday 11 September 2012 Mr Osborne: I will pursue the right hon. Gentleman’s point with all haste. The House met at half-past Two o’clock Mr Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con): Many Members of this House have told me of their deep concern about PRAYERS the development of retrospective tax measures, and the Treasury Committee shares those concerns. Does the [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] Chancellor agree that the best way to prevent loss of revenue from avoidance schemes is to work much harder to create a simpler tax system in the beginning?

Oral Answers to Questions Mr Osborne: Yes, I agree that that is of course the best approach, but in the tax code of a western democracy there will inevitably be opportunities for abuse and avoidance, which we need to deal with. When it comes TREASURY to retrospection, I say to my hon. Friend, the Chair of the Treasury Committee, that I think the House of Commons should sanction retrospective taxation only The Chancellor of the Exchequer was asked— when it is very clear that the explicit wishes of Parliament have been abused and avoided. For example, in the case Tax Avoidance of a particular UK bank that his Committee and I have corresponded about, we acted retrospectively because 1. Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con): What steps he there was a clear breach of what Parliament had expressed, is taking to tackle tax avoidance. [120134] and I am very pleased to note that the bank’s new chief executive has today said that the bank will be scaling The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne): down its tax structuring activities. This coalition Government have dramatically increased the pressure against those who avoid and evade taxes. Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP): A year ago the As a result of our efforts, tax revenues from our compliance Chief Secretary to the Treasury made a speech in which and enforcement are £3 billion higher than when we he said he would employ 2,000 more tax inspectors, but came to office. We have tackled disguised remuneration, in March this year it transpired that there were almost we are dealing with stamp duty enveloping and we are 1,300 fewer people in compliance than there had been introducing a general anti-abuse rule. None of those when the Government came to power. Can the Chancellor things, of course, happened over the previous 13 years. tell us when we will see any of those 2,000 new inspectors, or are we to take it that that was simply a conference Caroline Dinenage: My constituents do not mind flourish speech and that there is no real determination paying taxes, so long as everyone pays their fair share. to clamp down on tax avoidance as the Chancellor has Given that the tax gap widened under the previous said? Government, will the Chancellor confirm that this Government are committed to tackling all forms of Mr Osborne: The number of specialist tax people at aggressive tax avoidance as well as tax evasion? HMRC dealing with compliance is going up over this Parliament. We are also committing an extra £900 million Mr Osborne: We are committed to doing that. My hon. to the organisation specifically for that activity. As I Friend is right that the tax gap—the amount of money have just explained to the House, we are collecting that should be collected but is not collected—rose from £3 billion more in tax as a result of compliance over this £35 billion to £39 billion under the previous Government. Parliament and, as we will confirm later this week, we As I have said, our compliance and enforcement efforts are collecting £500 million more from high net worth have already increased the amount raised by £3 billion, individuals because of the high net worth unit and its and later this week we will confirm that we have raised better than expected performance over the past two £500 million more in extra tax from high net worth years. individuals as a result of our efforts through Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. We are taking action, but need it Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) to be supported, yet the Labour party recently voted (LD): Following the Government’s very good initiatives against the changes to disguised remuneration, which so far on dealing with tax avoidance, will the Chancellor were an attempt to clamp down on a particularly egregious look at those private sector companies that are monopoly form of tax avoidance. providers of public sector services, which have billion-pound turnovers, pay no corporation tax and often channel Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): their money through offshore accounts in places such as One group of people who could not avoid paying tax the Caribbean and the Channel Islands? are the disabled Remploy staff who were recently made redundant. They were put on an emergency code, with Mr Osborne: I repeat the general observation that we the result that their holiday and notice pay was taxed at are making every effort, through legislation and enforcement almost 50%. HMRC has promised refunds, but will the activity, to reduce tax avoidance and to stop tax evasion. 119 Oral Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 120

If my right hon. Friend has specific examples that he the local projects in Peterborough and elsewhere will wants to bring to my attention, he should please do so, also unlock jobs, development and investment. Of course, and if necessary we will investigate. we cannot make all those announcements here in the House of Commons. However, we have provided local Infrastructure authorities with the funds to make those transport changes and improvements. We call it the Growing 2. Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): What Places fund, and it is worth about £500 million. In the recent steps he has taken to support nationally city deals that we are striking with different cities, we important infrastructure projects. [120135] are improving road and rail connections to create jobs and get the private sector growing, which is what we all 3. Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): What want to see. assessment he has made of the effect that investment in infrastructure will have on the economy. [120136] Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab): The huge contraction in our construction sector is one of the The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne): reasons we are in a double-dip recession. We have seen A competitive market economy such as Britain needs two reshuffles—one in the UK Government and one in modern infrastructure if it is to succeed, yet in areas the Scottish Government. In Scotland, the new Cabinet such as roads, energy and broadband, the last decade Secretary for Infrastructure, Investment and Cities will saw us fall behind the rest of Europe. This Government be building not the case for schools, hospitals and are righting those wrongs by overseeing a £250 billion railways but the case for independence, and we have a investment in infrastructure—double the amount in the UK Chancellor who thinks that a credible economic previous Parliament, even in these straitened times. Our policy is just about rolling up his sleeves. When we will new legislation will guarantee billions more in investment see a change in direction from this Government to make from the private sector. This will bring the new roads, sure that we are creating investment and jobs right the superfast broadband to our cities, and the new rail across the UK? connections such as the northern hub. We are also cutting through the delays in Whitehall and in the Mr Osborne: In this case, I agreed with the first half planning system to make sure that we deliver faster than of the question. I do not think that the Scottish Government Labour did. are focused on the priorities of the Scottish people, and I made that case when I spoke to CBI Scotland in Jason McCartney: I welcome all that investment in Glasgow last week. However, I disagree with his attempt infrastructure, particularly the investment in electrification to compare the record of the Labour Government with of the trans-Pennine rail route and the full funding of that of this coalition Government. We are spending the northern hub rail project. Will my right hon. Friend more on capital investment than the previous Labour continue to invest in infrastructure so that we can Government planned to spend in this period, as they set recover from the shocking situation we inherited whereby out just before the general election. We are spending for every 10 jobs created in London and the south-east more on capital investment in the essential infrastructure under the previous Government, only one was created of this country than they did. We are also taking tough in the regions? decisions on welfare and the like in order to get the deficit down and get money spent where it can create Mr Osborne: My hon. Friend points to the stark truth jobs. that, as he says, for every 10 jobs created in the private sector in the south of England only one was created in Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): Will the the north of England. In a region as important as the Chancellor consider extra investment in the ports of west midlands, for example, private sector employment Neath, Port Talbot and Swansea in order that they fell during Labour’s period in office, and that was become recognised by the European Commission as before the crash. We are investing in the infrastructure. core ports and therefore trigger TEN-T—trans-European The trans-Pennine electrification is incredibly important. transport network—investment in an area where it is The stretch between Liverpool and Manchester is already much needed? under way, and of course it then crosses the Pennines. We are also fully committing to the northern hub— Mr Osborne: I am keen to see further investment in something that was not done under the previous our ports. I am happy to engage in a specific conversation Government. with the hon. Gentleman about his proposal and, if necessary, speak to the Welsh Government about it. Mr Stewart Jackson: I support the Government’s national infrastructure plan. I particularly welcome specific Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): Does the projects such as the dualling of the A11 and the potential Chancellor agree that the projects that have the most new A14 toll road in Cambridgeshire near my constituency. beneficial impact on the economy are those that are Is not the lesson of such discrete local transport fully self-financing in the private sector because they are infrastructure projects that they deliver a much more popular? profound impact on jobs and growth than grandiose projects such as High Speed 2, the business case for Mr Osborne: I agree that we want to see private sector which is fatally flawed? investment, and tens of billions of pounds of private sector investment is coming into the United Kingdom. Mr Osborne: I agreed with my hon. Friend until his Indeed, today the Chinese company Huawei has announced last sentence. He is right to say that it is not just the big a $2 billion investment in the UK. I absolutely agree projects announced from this Dispatch Box that count; with my right hon. Friend. We want to create the low-tax, 121 Oral Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 122 competitive conditions for the UK economy in which Where are these additional airports that it built? The truth the private sector can grow, but I think he would recognise is that the south-east of England needs additional airport that there is a role for public money in providing large-scale capacity. The question is where we place it and I think transport infrastructure, for example, which these companies that Howard Davies is the right man to advise us all. need to succeed. Pensioner Tax Allowances Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab): In a speech yesterday, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury declared that 4. Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) “infrastructure is at the centre of our strategy to kick-start our (Lab): What recent estimate he has made of the effect on economy.” pensioners of plans to end age-related tax allowances. With that in mind, will the Chancellor tell the House [120137] whether the value of orders for infrastructure investment made by the private sector rose or fell between 2010 and The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David 2011? Gauke): The impacts of the reforms to age-related allowances were set out alongside Budget 2012. Half of Mr Osborne: For a start, we have just announced those over the age of 65 pay no income tax, and nobody £40 billion of additional guarantees for private sector will pay more tax in 2013-14 than in 2012-13 as a result infrastructure. If the hon. Lady wants the figures, £113 of these changes. The Government remain committed billion was invested over the period from 2005 to 2010, to supporting pensioners and have introduced the triple and £250 billion of investment for both the private and guarantee for the basic state pension, ensuring that it public sectors has been announced in this Parliament. will increase each and every year by the highest of earnings, prices or 2.5%. Rachel Reeves: As the Chancellor will know, there is a difference between announcing something and actually Mr Clarke: Will the Minister explain to my constituents delivering it. The answer to my question is that those why people with small occupational pensions are paying orders fell by a fifth, from £7.3 billion in 2010 to more while millionaires are paying less in tax? £5.9 billion in 2011—a result of the collapse in business confidence that the Chancellor’s disastrous decision to Mr Gauke: The right hon. Gentleman will be aware cut too far and too fast has resulted in. that the policy announcements in the last Budget resulted Is it not the truth that next week’s Infrastructure in millionaires paying more in tax, not less. As far as (Financial Assistance) Bill is necessary only in order to this Government’s record on pensioners is concerned, create the impression of activity and to distract from let us not forget that the state pension is going up by this Government’s complete and utter failure to deliver £120 more compared with the Opposition party’s plans. the infrastructure investment that they have been promising and that the country is crying out for? Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): For a long time, some pensioners, by virtue of having their personal allowance clawed back, have found themselves paying Mr Osborne: There is a difference between announcement an effective rate of income tax far higher than many and delivery: Labour announced no more boom and working people on a similar income. Will the Government’s bust, and delivered the biggest boom and the biggest policy of raising the personal allowance mean that that bust. We know all about the record of the last Labour unfairness is eventually brought to an end? Government. One of the quite extraordinary things is that, despite spending and borrowing all that money, they did not actually invest in the modern infrastructure Mr Gauke: I am pleased to say that my hon. Friend is that the private sector needs to create sustainable jobs. right. Our policy will reduce complexity in the tax That is the lesson that the hon. Lady should learn from system and reduce the need for high marginal rates for their last period in office. pensioners through the taper system.

Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con): We are told Public Sector Borrowing by the Government that we urgently need more airport capacity, so could the Chancellor explain why his only 5. Mr George Mudie (Leeds East) (Lab): What assessment policy on the issue is to commit the Government to he has made of the implications for his policies of the doing nothing at all for three years, until after the next public sector net borrowing figures in the current fiscal election? Surely he appreciates that voters need to know year. [120138] where the Government stand before they vote. The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander): Mr Osborne: As my hon. Friend knows better than Public sector borrowing figures have been higher than pretty much anyone else in this House, we made a very expected, primarily because of short-term factors, including firm commitment that we would not proceed with a lower corporation tax receipts caused by the Elgin third runway in this Parliament, but Howard Davies is shutdown and the lower than expected oil price. With now looking at all the options for airport capacity in the eight months of the year remaining, it is too early to south-east. This issue has evaded Governments of all draw conclusions about the year as a whole, but the political colours for the past 30 years, and it is time that Government remain committed to returning the public we tried to achieve some cross-party consensus, because finances to a sustainable path, while allowing the automatic I am absolutely clear—[Interruption.] If the Labour stabilisers to operate in response to the weakness in the party was so good at building airports, where are they? global economy. 123 Oral Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 124

Mr Mudie: The Chancellor boasted in his 2010 Budget Household Expenditure speech that the borrowing requirement this year would be £89 billion. The Office for Budget Responsibility is 6. Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): suggesting that the figure will be £120 billion—a 33% What steps he has taken to help households with their overshoot. Can we have an explanation of why the cost of living. [120139] Chancellor got it so wrong? The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander): Danny Alexander: The hon. Gentleman, as he knows, The Government have taken wide-ranging action to is referring to the OBR’s forecasts. Of course, a number support households. For example, we cut fuel duty last of problems in the global economy, not least those in year and have deferred various increases planned by the the eurozone, have become more serious since those Labour party. We are also helping those in work by forecasts were made. I would have thought that he raising the personal allowance by £1,100 in April next would applaud the fact that our plan is sufficiently year, which is the largest cut in income tax for median flexible to allow the automatic stabilisers to support our earners in more than a decade. That is a substantial economy when there is weakness in the global economy. record of dealing with the big questions in the cost of living for families. Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): No one in the House underestimates the size of the economic challenge Rehman Chishti: I thank my right hon. Friend for before us or the importance of supporting manufacturing that answer. There are concerns that fuel companies and exports, which make up a fifth of the gross domestic delay the reduction in petrol prices when the cost of product in my constituency, but at a time when the crude oil falls. What action are the Government taking employment figures are encouraging, our manufacturing to ensure that companies pass on savings to motorists? indices are outstanding and our global competitiveness has risen by two places, does my right hon. Friend agree that two impediments to business confidence are the Danny Alexander: The hon. Gentleman raises an threat of strikes by unions and the chorus of despair important point, and I sympathise greatly with families from the Opposition? up and down the country who face the problem that he describes. That is why we have made decisions on fuel Danny Alexander: My hon. Friend is right to highlight duty that mean that the price of petrol is roughly 10p a some of the positives in the UK economy, especially the litre less than it would have been had we followed employment figures. My experience of dealing with through the Labour party’s plans. The Office of Fair trade unions is that one should not pay much attention Trading has recently announced a call for information to the rhetoric at their conferences. When one gets on the problem, and I urge him and Members in all down to business with the trade unions, as I did on parts of the House to pass on any information that they public service pensions, the majority of them are willing have. Having spoken to Clive Maxwell of the OFT, I to behave responsibly. That said, and as the shadow know that it is committed to ensuring— Chancellor has said, the British public and trade union members do not want to see strike action in this country. Mr Speaker: Order. I am greatly obliged to the Chief Secretary, but from now on we need rather shorter Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): Borrowing is exchanges if I am to maximise the number of Back-Bench rising because of the scale and speed of the cuts, as we contributors. warned it would. Is it not the case that the economic policy brought in by the right hon. Gentleman and his Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): The Chief Secretary friend the Chancellor has backfired? will know that one thing that is really hitting people at the moment is the rising cost of food. A huge number of Danny Alexander: Before asking that question the people, even those in work, are having to resort to going hon. Gentleman should have reflected on the fact that to food banks. What action are the Government taking the policy of his party’s Front Benchers is to increase to address that situation? borrowing yet further. They recently announced a new approach, known as pre-distribution. We now know Danny Alexander: The hon. Lady will also know that what that means: spend money before it has arrived, in the substantial increases in the personal allowance are the hope that it might arrive in future. That is the policy putting more money in the pockets of people on low that failed this country for 13 years and we will not go incomes who are working hard. We protected the lowest- back to it. paid public sector workers from the impact of the pay freeze, and she will also know that out-of-work benefits Mr Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con): Does my right went up by 5.2% this year. hon. Friend agree that the 900,000 extra private sector jobs that have been created since the last election will go Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): Returning to the high cost a considerable way towards easing the fiscal position, as of petrol, diesel and heating oil, I am sure the Chief well as cast some doubt over the output figures of the Secretary is aware that in the past few days FairFuelUK Office for National Statistics? has published a statement from a whistleblower alleging that the oil commodity trading market is being rigged in Danny Alexander: I certainly would not wish to question a similar way to LIBOR. Will he confirm that he will the integrity of the ONS’s figures. However, I join my back the call for a wider investigation and inquiry into hon. Friend in highlighting the excellent record of many the UK oil trading market by the Financial Services private sector businesses in creating jobs in all parts of Authority or the Bank of England, whichever is more the country over the past two years. appropriate? 125 Oral Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 126

Danny Alexander: I applaud the work of the FairFuelUK Tax Simplification campaign in drawing attention to such issues. Having discussed the matter with Clive Maxwell of the Office of Fair Trading, I can reassure my hon. Friend that if 8. Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con): What the call for information in which it is currently engaged steps he is taking to simplify the tax system. [120141] yields evidence of real problems in the fuel market, it will launch a full investigation. The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke): The Government are committed to simplifying Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): In four the tax system. Since 2010 we have set up the Office of months’ time, more than a million families will see their Tax Simplification and acted on a range of its cost of living rise, with the loss of child benefit and a recommendations. We have abolished 43 tax reliefs, and complex tax change costing the Exchequer £100 million from April 2013 we will introduce a new cash basis for more just to administer. Can the Chief Secretary tell the calculating tax, benefiting up to 3 million small self- House how many more families will have to fill out a employed businesses. Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs self-assessment tax form for the privilege of losing their is also improving tax administration for small businesses, child benefit, and when will those complex forms begin as set out in its publication at the time of the 2012 to arrive? Budget.

Danny Alexander: Letters to people who are likely to Mr Raab: I thank the Minister for that response. The be affected by that change will go out in October—[HON. 2020 Tax Commission found that UK tax administration MEMBERS: “Which year?”] October of this year. I am costs were double those of Norway, triple those of surprised to hear that the hon. Gentleman objects to Estonia, and almost five times higher than in Switzerland, the change, given that it is a necessary part of our fiscal so I welcome the Minister’s drive for simplification. consolidation, and particularly part of our asking the What progress has been made on merging national wealthiest in this country to make a contribution to insurance and income tax, and other areas affecting deficit reduction. His party should support that. business, that could yield an estimated £5 billion each year for the British economy? Beer Duty Mr Gauke: The Government are continuing to explore the potential of merging the operation of income tax 7. Karl McCartney (Lincoln) (Con): What assessment and national insurance contributions. We also want to he has made of the effect on pubs of the continuation make the tax system as transparent as possible, and one of the beer duty escalator. [120140] of the steps we have taken is the introduction of personal tax statements that will make it clearer to taxpayers how The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Sajid Javid): much they are paying in both income tax and national The Government recognise the important contribution insurance. that pubs throughout the country make to their local communities and the wider community. Given the large Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and number of factors contributing to the decline in pub Kirkintilloch East) (Lab): The Minister will be aware numbers, including shifting social trends, the relationship that his colleague the Chancellor presented the granny between beer duty and the pub industry cannot easily tax as a tax simplification in the Budget. Is the Minister be determined. confident that further measures of tax simplification will be more successful and less unpopular than the Karl McCartney: I welcome the new Minister to his granny tax? post and thank him for that answer. In my constituency, the beer and pubs sector supports around 1,300 jobs. At Mr Gauke: We believe that tax simplification is important. a time when household incomes are static and pubs A simpler tax system makes it easier for taxpayers to see have seen a reduction in trade as a result of the smoking how much they are paying, easier for businesses to ban and other nanny state impositions by the Labour comply, and easier to tackle avoidance. It is something Government, does he agree that the Treasury needs to the Government believe in. provide further support to the industry by reversing the trend of rises in beer duty, which has grown by more than 40% since 2008? Market Interest Rates

Sajid Javid: As the incoming Economic Secretary, I 9. Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con): What plans he has note that I have been given responsibility for some of to maintain low market interest rates. [120142] the more popular duties and taxes. There will be no further changes to alcohol duties The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne): beyond those designed and pre-announced by the previous My hon. Friend is right: low interest rates are secured Government, but I hope that the minimum unit pricing by credible, economic and fiscal policy, and delivered by system that the Government have announced will make the independent Bank of England. Sir Mervyn King a difference to pubs, along with other measures that we has been an outstanding Governor of the Bank, and have announced to help small businesses such as reducing has helped set monetary policy to support our economy the corporation tax rate, the extension of the small through one of its most challenging periods in modern business rate relief holiday and the reduction of the history. He is serving his second and final term as small profits tax rate. Governor, and will retire on 30 June 2013. 127 Oral Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 128

I can tell the House today that I have decided that the The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David appointment of his successor will be conducted through Gauke): The Government aim to provide a climate of fair and open competition. For the first time in history, economic stability that will benefit all businesses. That the post will be advertised and the advertisement will would not be possible without a credible plan to deal appear in the press later this week. As with Mervyn with Government debt, and a VAT increase is an important King, we are seeking a Governor of intelligence, component of that plan. independence and integrity, and we intend to announce the successful candidate by the end of the year. Chris Evans: Since January this year, 42 retail businesses in Wales have gone to the wall. What message does the Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con): I thank the Chancellor Minister have for Welsh business leaders who have for that response, and I welcome his announcement. called for a reduction in VAT to breath new life into the high street? Those looking for a home in my Winchester constituency want to know that their Conservative council is building Mr Gauke: Retail sales growth has generally been new council homes for the first time in 25 years. Those positive over the past year. Let me underline this point: looking to buy in the private sector want to know that if the biggest problem faced by the economy at the they can get on the housing ladder and get a mortgage, moment is that we are not borrowing enough, that is, with some certainty that they can repay the money over I am afraid, a very strange diagnosis. the years to come. Will the Chancellor reassure my constituents that, unlike the Labour party, he understands Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): If the Government that even a small rise in interest rates will have a were to adopt that unfunded mandate and the other punishing effect on family budgets? £200 billion of unfunded borrowing suggested by the Opposition, what would be the effect on interest rates Mr Osborne: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Low and our national credit rating? interest rates are crucial to the recovery, and a loss of confidence in the UK’s ability to pay its way in the Mr Gauke: There is no doubt that such a policy world will lead to an increase in market interest rates, an would be taking an enormous risk with interest rates increase in mortgage costs for millions of families, and, and our credibility. This Government are not prepared of course, an increase in borrowing costs for businesses. to take that risk. It would be a disaster, and that is why the Government do not take the path advocated by the Labour party. We Air Passenger Duty also want to ensure that low interest rates are felt by families, which is why the funding for lending scheme 11. Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): If he will announced jointly with the Bank of England is already commission research to determine the effect of air leading to banks offering cheaper mortgages. The passenger duty on UK holidaymakers, employment combination of our Firstbuy and NewBuy schemes is and economic growth. [120144] also helping families to buy their first home. 12. Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): Many people do What assessment he has made of the effect of air not have access to those kinds of interest rates, and are passenger duty on tourism and the regional economy. depending on high street, rip-off schemes such as Wonga [120145] and so on. What is the Chancellor doing to protect ordinary families who cannot get loans and who need The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Sajid Javid): to depend on rip-off merchants? The Government undertook an extensive consultation on air passenger duty last year. The consultation Mr Osborne: We have toughened up the regulation of gathered views and evidence from stakeholders—more consumer credit, and next year there will be a tough than 500 responses were received from all sectors. The new consumer agency, the financial conduct authority, Government published our response to the consultation which we are creating in order to deal with the bad on 6 December 2011 and we have no plans to commission advice that is sometimes provided to families. Indeed, further research. Martin Wheatley, its chief executive, gave an interesting speech about that last week, and about the impact of Naomi Long: As the Minister is aware, the issue of sales commissions and the like on the provision of bad direct long-haul flights has been dealt with. However, advice and bad products to families. We are taking that is a small but important part of the market—most action to do that, but as I said, the worst possible thing people will travel to or through another UK airport, for all those families, and everyone else in the country, and passengers from Northern Ireland will pay APD would be a sharp rise in interest rates, which a loss of twice, because there is a restricted number of through- confidence in the Government’s fiscal policies would carriers. Do the Government believe there would be bring about. merit in reviewing APD generally so that it is more supportive of tourism and business, and of growth?

VAT (Retail Sector) Sajid Javid: The hon. Lady is passionate about this issue, and I thought she would welcome the measures that the Government have taken, which have made a 10. Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op): What estimate significant contribution. I hope she joins me in realising he has made of the effect of the level of VAT on the that the Government have made substantial progress, retail sector in the last 12 months. [120143] but she also knows that the Chancellor announced in 129 Oral Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 130 the previous Budget that the Government are looking at their hours. Why is the Chancellor trying to balance the other things that can be done to boost the Northern books on the backs of hard-working families, and will Ireland economy. he concede that children are bearing the brunt of this Government’s failed policies? Ms Ritchie: I thank the Minister for his answer, but could he advise the House on what discussions he has Sajid Javid: Under the previous Government, spending held with the Northern Ireland Executive on the need to on tax credits was out of control, having risen from scrap APD for short-haul flights between Northern £18 billion in 2003 to £30 billion in 2010, meaning that Ireland and Britain and Europe? nine out of 10 families with children were eligible for tax credits. This Government have reduced that to six Sajid Javid: I have not had any such discussions since out of 10 by taking a more targeted approach. It is I was appointed, but I look forward to having them in important that we support those on the lowest incomes future and will report to the hon. Lady when I do. while ensuring that those who can contribute to deficit reduction do so. There is nothing fair about running Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): I congratulate huge deficits for our children. my hon. Friend on his appointment to the Front Bench. I am sorry to ask him a difficult question to begin with, John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD): In but what consideration has been given to the impact of Birmingham, 283,000 people have benefited from a tax APD on our Commonwealth cousins? It is having an cut of £220. Will the Minister assure me that we will impact on many economies. We would not want our continue to try to protect the low-paid by reducing how Commonwealth cousins to turn to the black economy much tax they pay? or illegal activities, or even to require more overseas development aid. Will he look again at the impact of Sajid Javid: That is a central plank of the Government’s the policy on the Commonwealth? policy, and I am sure that my hon. Friend will agree that some of the changes we have already announced, such Sajid Javid: I thank my hon. Friend for his warm as those contained in the personal allowance, which I welcome and for his characteristically strong question. know he supports, are doing exactly that. As far as I am aware, the Government have not looked specifically at the impact on the Commonwealth, but I Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) am willing to do so and will get back to him. (Lab): I congratulate the Minister on his appointment, but the Government’s tax and spending cuts have hit Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): I women and children the hardest, leaving families struggling welcome my hon. Friend to his new position. Will he and child poverty on the rise. The last time there was no look at the position of the Caribbean in that regard? woman in the Treasury was 17 years ago under the last Will he also look at the conclusions of the all-party Tory Government. Although I welcome him to his group on aviation report on APD and at the impact place, does he think that the Government’s record with APD is having on regional economies such as Yorkshire women will get worse or better with no female voice at that compete as tourism destinations for people coming the table? from China and the US? Sajid Javid: The Government have an excellent record Sajid Javid: I thank my hon. Friend for her welcome. on women in government—[Interruption.] I will take a look at that, but given the amount of money from APD on which the Government rely to Mr Speaker: Order. Mr Bryant, you are trying to deal with the fiscal deficit we inherited, it is appropriate become a statesman. Calm yourself, man. to point out that, if we changed the banding, APD might have to rise for others. Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): No, I’m not.

Families with Children (Tax and Benefits) Mr Speaker: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman does not think he has to try. Anyway, the Minister must be heard. 13. Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): What assessment he has made of the effect on families Sajid Javid: The Government’s policies, including with children of the tax and benefit changes made in those of the Treasury, are helping women. The change I 2012-13. [120146] mentioned previously—to the personal tax credits—will take 1.1 million people out of income taxation altogether, The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Sajid Javid): which will disproportionately benefit women. The Government have taken unprecedented steps to increase the transparency of decision making. All but the highest income decile have on average gained from Personal Allowances direct tax changes. The Government continue to help and protect the most vulnerable with, for example, 14. John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con): What assessment increases in the child element of the child tax credit by he has made of the effect on the cost of living of the £180 per annum above inflation in April 2011. increase in the personal allowance. [120147]

Lilian Greenwood: Up to 1,000 households in my The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander): constituency face having their tax credits withdrawn In this year’s Budget, we announced a £1,100 increase this year, and 275 families with 625 children faced in the personal allowance for 2013-14—the largest ever losing working tax credit if parents could not increase cash increase. The combined increases that the coalition 131 Oral Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 132 has announced will reduce the tax paid by a typical Greg Clark: I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s question. basic rate taxpayer next year by £350 in real terms and He knows what he speaks of because he is an £546 in cash terms. ex-manufacturer himself—appropriately enough, as a Staffordshire MP, in the Potteries. One of the early John Stevenson: Given that the policy of significantly successes of the funding for lending scheme is that increasing the personal allowance has been hugely banks are now targeting manufacturing firms. Just yesterday, successful, would the Chief Secretary agree that the RBS said that the scheme would be used for mid-sized long-term goal should be to link the personal allowance manufacturers. RBS has cut interest rates from 3.45% with the minimum wage, thereby ensuring that anybody to 2.75% and is looking to increase lending to mid-sized on the minimum wage does not pay income tax? manufacturing businesses, which have so much potential.

Danny Alexander: I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): May endorsement of the policy. The coalition Government I push the Minister on this issue and what is happening have committed to increasing the personal allowance to in the real world? As even Boris would explain to him, £10,000—a policy that was on the front page of the the fact of the matter is that we have low interest rates, Liberal Democrat election manifesto—but I agree that but people cannot get mortgages to get into the housing the long-term objective, which I and my party share, market and my constituents, along with people in business should be to link the personal allowance to the minimum across Yorkshire, cannot get decent loans to start businesses wage. However, a considerable cost would be attached or, more importantly, expand their businesses. In the to that. real world, it is not working. What is the Minister going to do about it? Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): May I bring the Chief Secretary back to the reality faced by my Greg Clark: The hon. Gentleman will know, because constituents, who see their cost of living rising all the he has studied the figures, that mortgage lending has time, with food prices increasing in the shops, and actually been increasing. The point of the funding for Government borrowing rising nationally? Which part lending scheme is precisely to make more funds available. of the Government’s record is he least proud of? When he studies the detail—I am happy to meet him and go through it with him—he will be able to promote the scheme in his constituency, because his constituents, Danny Alexander: As the question that the hon. Lady whether they are businesses or households, can benefit is following up on concerns the personal allowance, let from it. me limit my answer to that, Mr Speaker. Her constituents, in common with other Members’constituents, are benefiting from the fact that the Government have introduced the Topical Questions most radical policy for many years by putting more money back into the pockets of hard-working families T1. [120159] Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con): If he will across the country. She would do well to accept that. make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

Cost of Credit The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne): The core purpose of the Treasury is to ensure the stability of the economy, promote business and employment, 15. Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con): reform banking and manage the public finances so that What steps the Government have taken to reduce the Britain starts to live within her means. I can also tell the cost of credit to the real economy. [120148] House today that the autumn statement will be on Wednesday 5 December. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Greg Clark) rose— Karen Lumley: Does the Chancellor think a general strike would be helpful to the UK economy? Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr Osborne: No, I do not. I think it would cost jobs Greg Clark: Goodness. Thank you. I feel like Boris in the British economy and hit prosperity. I hope that all Johnson. Members of this House, whether they are sponsored by The Government and the Bank of England have trade unions or not, would condemn all calls on the launched the funding for lending scheme to enable trade unions to take up a general strike. banks to make loans cheaper and more easily available to households and businesses. In addition, 19,000 cheaper Ed Balls (Morley and Outwood) (Lab/Co-op): May I loans have been offered to smaller businesses under the take this opportunity to welcome the Financial Secretary national loan guarantee system. and the Economic Secretary to their new posts? I wish them good luck in their new positions. May I also Gavin Williamson: I welcome my right hon. Friend to congratulate the Chancellor on somehow managing to his new post and wish him every success. Many businesses keep his job in the reshuffle? Clearly, performance-related in South Staffordshire face a great challenge in raising management has not yet made it to the Cabinet. finance to grow and recruit new workers. Will he explain Since our last Treasury questions, the Office for National how the measures that he has outlined will help small Statistics has published new figures for Government and medium-sized businesses in my constituency to borrowing. We did not get clarity earlier, so let me ask grow and expand? the Chancellor this. What is the total figure for borrowing 133 Oral Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 134 for the first four months of this financial year? How does unnecessary obstacles to investment in nuclear power that compare with the same period last year, and how plants and that new power stations will come forward. does he explain what has happened? For example, the Government are undertaking electricity market and planning reforms and introducing an energy Mr Osborne: It is good to welcome the Member for Bill. As it happens, I am meeting representatives of “Unite West” back from the TUC conference. As the EDF later this afternoon, and I would be happy to Chief Secretary explained to the House, borrowing in share her concerns with the company. the short term has been higher this year than in the first four months of last year, but he pointed to particular T5. [120164] Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): Why is one-off factors, such as the shutdown of the Elgin Britain in a double-dip recession when France and oilfield. That is why the increase in borrowing comes Germany are not? from weaker corporation tax receipts. I am glad to report to the House that VAT, national insurance and Mr George Osborne: In case the right hon. Gentleman income tax receipts have broadly held up, despite the had not noticed, the eurozone is in recession. He talks weaker economic conditions here and around the world. about France and Germany, but the International Monetary However, the right hon. Gentleman will have to wait Fund—[HON.MEMBERS: “Answer!”] I am about to give until 5 December to get the next economic forecast him the answer. The IMF’s latest forecasts for growth from the independent Office for Budget Responsibility— next year show the UK growing at almost twice the because we make these forecasts independently these speed of France, and the same with Germany. If the days. question is, “Why isn’t the British economy more like Germany’s?”, I will give him the answer. It is because we Ed Balls: I have to say, we are losing patience with the did not invest in skills over the past decade. We did not Chancellor’s schoolboy bluster. It is one thing to be build our export links with China and India and the heckled by a few trade union delegates at a conference growing parts of the economy. We put all our bets on this morning; it is another thing to be booed by 80,000 the City of London when the right hon. Member for people—the whole of the Olympic stadium—when he Morley and Outwood (Ed Balls) was the City Minister only turned up to give out a medal. and it all went spectacularly wrong. We are now clearing Let me tell the Chancellor the answer. He is right that up the mess. borrowing has gone up by a quarter compared with last year, but the reason is that our economy is in double-dip T4. [120163] Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): Small recession, tax revenues are down and spending on businesses in my constituency regularly raise with me unemployment is going up. That is why borrowing is the issue of the administration and service levels at Her going up, on the watch of a Chancellor who said that he Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. Those problems constantly would secure the recovery and get borrowing down. So add to the administrative burden of small businesses. let me ask the Chancellor this. The International Monetary What more can the Government do to make HMRC Fund, the British Chambers of Commerce, the TUC, more efficient, in order to unburden our small businesses the engineering employers and even Boris Johnson are and let them get on with the day job? now calling for action to kick-start the recovery. Is it not time the Chancellor did something the public might cheer: admit he has got it wrong, change course and The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David finally get a plan for jobs and growth? Gauke): My hon. Friend will be aware of the paper that HMRC produced at the time of the last Budget, in Mr Osborne: The right hon. Gentleman talks about which it set out the ways in which we would reduce the unemployment; 900,000 private sector jobs have been administrative burden on small businesses, including created in this economy over the past two years, and we cash accounting. He mentioned the difficulties in getting are rebalancing the economy away from the dependence through to HMRC and the problems with the contact on debt and the unaffordable public sector that he centres. HMRC is making further investments and presided over when he was in the Treasury. [Interruption.] employing an additional 1,000 people in order to improve He says that borrowing has gone up, but we have cut the the performance at its contact centres. deficit by 25%. He has also said that Labour needs a credible deficit reduction plan. He has had all summer T7. [120166] Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): The Chief to think of one. Where is it? Secretary to the Treasury was asked earlier about the cost of living, but he said nothing in his reply about T3. [120162] Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): what the Government were doing about rising food, Building our energy infrastructure is a key element of transport and energy prices. Have he and his colleagues the national infrastructure plan. Preparations by EDF had discussions with the Energy Secretary about are already under way at Hinkley, and I hope that they getting a grip on the energy companies and sorting out will soon start at Sizewell in my constituency. Will my the soaring energy prices and the profits that the hon. Friend assure me that the Treasury will strain companies are making as a result? every sinew to ensure that EDF can make a positive investment decision later this year and build the power The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander): stations that that lot on the Labour Benches did not I have certainly had conversations with the Energy build? Secretary about initiatives such as the green deal, under which people’s energy costs will be brought down by The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Sajid Javid): insulating their homes. The hon. Gentleman mentioned My hon. Friend is passionate about this issue, and she fuel costs, but he must be aware that the price of a litre will be pleased to hear that the Government are removing of fuel is 10p less than it would have been if we had 135 Oral Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 136 stuck with the plans that the previous Government put Mr Osborne: This is, of course, the key challenge in in place. That was their approach to the cost of living, these difficult financial conditions, which have endured and this is ours. for five years or so. I know that there is a particular challenge in Northern Ireland, where the collapse of the T8. [120167] Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): Big banking system in southern Ireland has had a real increases in the funding of vital rail infrastructure projects impact. The funding for lending scheme, launched last in the north-west of England, such as the Todmorden month, is an £80 billion Treasury/Bank of England curve, the northern hub and High Speed 2, are hugely scheme to reduce bank funding costs so that banks are welcome and will provide jobs and opportunities that able to lend to businesses and households. A number of would not have been available under the previous banks, such as Barclays and Lloyds, have already launched Government. Will my right hon. Friend confirm that, products that will bring those lower interest rates to the without his decisive action on the public finances, such hon. Gentleman’s constituents. high levels of spending on infrastructure would simply not have been possible? Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD): The fact that the deficit has come down by a quarter enables the British Government to borrow at roughly the equivalent Mr George Osborne: My hon. Friend is right. It is rate of the United States Government—a rate lower precisely because we have taken difficult decisions—for than every EU member state apart from Germany. example, to cut £18 billion from the welfare budget—that Does the Chief Secretary agree that this enables the we are able to invest in rail and road improvements that Government to contemplate infrastructure investment will help to create jobs in Lancashire and across the and to use the strength of our balance sheet to facilitate north-west. The northern hub is a project that has been and guarantee private sector infrastructure investment? talked about for many years, but it is under this coalition Government that it is being delivered. Danny Alexander: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We can use the strength of the balance sheet that has Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) been built up as a result of this Government’s fiscal (Lab): May I specifically ask the Chancellor whether, credibility to provide, for example, £40 billion of guarantees notwithstanding the recent reshuffle, the Government to infrastructure investment and £10 billion of guarantees are still committed to achieving 0.7% GNI for overseas to registered social landlords. The Labour party may aid? If so, when can we expect the Bill? oppose these guarantees, but they have been widely welcomed by infrastructure providers, by the business Mr Osborne: The short answer is yes, we are. It is not community and, in the latter case, by housing associations. about legislation; it is about delivering the money. That shows precisely the benefit of the tough fiscal [Interruption.] Labour Members say “Ah”, but we can policy decisions this Government have taken. legislate as much as we like; the question is whether we are prepared to take the difficult decisions to deliver the Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab): Will Ministers money. [Interruption.] They say they do not trust us, look urgently at the length of time it is taking to process but this is the Government who will deliver the 0.7% aid tax credit applications? My constituents are being declined commitment that all parties signed up to. their tax credits simply because they are on fixed-term contracts that come to an end before the tax credit application is considered. T9. [120168] Simon Kirby (Brighton, Kemptown) (Con): As the TUC meets in sunny Brighton, what message does my right hon. Friend think that an irresponsible Mr Gauke: I certainly take the hon. Lady’s comments strike will send to the millions of hard-working people on board. It is our intention to deal with tax credit who are worried about our economic recovery? applications as swiftly as possible. We will look at individual cases, so if she wants to contact me or the permanent secretary at HMRC, either of us would be Mr Osborne: I think it sends a terrible message to my happy to take the case up. hon. Friend’s constituents in Brighton and across the country. The last thing this country needs at the moment Nadine Dorries (Mid Bedfordshire) (Con): The is a series of strikes. We have struck a good deal for the Government are to invest £17 billion in phase 1 of HS2, public sector on public sector pensions that will ensure which will transport someone from London to Birmingham that people continue to enjoy some of the best pensions 20 minutes quicker, yet there are students in my constituency in Britain, while at the same time reducing the cost to today who cannot accept their place in Bedford college the taxpayer by 50% over the long term. We are also because of the lack of a local transport network, and instituting public sector pay restraint so we do not have constituents who cannot accept offers of work because to make even more difficult decisions about job losses. they cannot get to the train stations via a bus network. That is because we are dealing with a very difficult Would it not be a better use of that investment to put it economic situation with a very large deficit. I would into regional transport networks so that people can get hope that the trade unions would understand that rather to work and to college? than try to take their members out on strike. Mr George Osborne: I think we can do both; we can Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): Will the invest in local and regional transport networks. If my Chancellor tell us how money can be taken out of the hon. Friend has specific schemes in Bedfordshire that banks and put into small and medium-sized businesses she wants to bring to my attention or that of the right across the United Kingdom? Without it, we are Department for Transport, we will look at them very certainly not going to kick-start the economy. carefully, but that does not preclude us as country from 137 Oral Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 138 taking the big infrastructure decisions—as we did with planks of the Government’s policy for dealing with the M25 and as our predecessors did with the railways youth employment is the provision of apprenticeships. centuries ago—to invest in a railway system for the future. She might also welcome the 68% increase in the number High-speed rail will connect the north to the south of of apprenticeships in her constituency. England. Sir Nick Harvey (North Devon) (LD): What are the Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): Today, the Public Government’s intentions regarding transition regions in Accounts Committee exposed very poor management the next round of EU funding? I am told that four of the Government’s regional growth fund. Can the Departments are slightly at odds over that. May I Chancellor tell us how many extra jobs will be created surprise my hon. Friends by saying that in the south-west by the national infrastructure plan which was announced those in the Treasury are seen as the good guys, in this last autumn? context at least? Will they impress on their Government colleagues the fact that if these schemes are to help Mr Osborne: I can write to the hon. Gentleman areas such as North Devon and Torbay, which have providing a specific jobs total for this year, but I can tell been shown to be at more risk of going into poverty him now that the national infrastructure plan is already than Cornwall, they will need to operate bottom-up seeing the development of the trans-Pennine electrification, and not top-down? which we discussed earlier, the creation of 700 jobs in the north-east as we spend £600 million on new inter-city Danny Alexander: My hon. Friend is right to say that trains, and the huge Crossrail development across London, transition status has benefited regions such as his—and, which, as I have seen, is employing many hundreds if indeed, mine in the highlands and islands—during the not thousands of people. The plan is not just a plan for current multiannual financial framework period. Our this year; it is also a plan for the future, and it shows principal objective in relation to the budget negotiations that making difficult decisions about things such as is to bring down the total EU budget in recognition of welfare enables us to spend on things that will help the what is going on around Europe, but we will happily private sector to create jobs. discuss further with him his concerns about the issues that he has raised to ensure that we secure a fair deal for Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con): I impoverished regions of this country as well. congratulate the Financial Secretary on his new post. Would he be willing—when the dust settles, and in the John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab): Legislation wake of the LIBOR scandal—to look again with fresh for Government borrowing guarantees to help to fund eyes at the possibilities of full bank account portability, infrastructure is due to be presented to the House next which could be a game-changer for British banking, week. The Chancellor is right to try to use the power of and try to get our economy going again once and for government in this way, so why has it taken two and a all? half years, and nine months of double-dip recession, for him to decide to do it? The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Greg Clark): Mr George Osborne: Can I just say— My hon. Friend is a distinguished member of the Treasury Committee. The Independent Commission on Banking Ed Balls: Don’t sneer. has considered the matter, and has made some proposals for easier transfer between accounts. It has said that Mr Osborne: Let me say this as politely as I can to the that should be under review, but I shall be happy to shadow Chancellor and former Treasury Minister. Not meet my hon. Friend, and I understand the case that she once in the 13 years during which Labour was in office is making. did it propose guaranteeing large-scale infrastructure projects, but that is precisely what we are doing. We are Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op): breaching decades of Treasury orthodoxy to support The number of young people in my constituency who the private sector, investing for our country’s future, have been unemployed for more than 12 months has and I hope that that commands all-party support—in risen twelvefold since May 2010. Why does the Minister the politest possible way. think that is, and was it a mistake to get rid of the future jobs fund within weeks of taking office? Several hon. Members rose—

Sajid Javid: I thought that the hon. Lady might start Mr Speaker: I am sorry to disappoint colleagues. by congratulating the Government on the fifth consecutive Demand was extremely high on this occasion, and they fall in unemployment. She will know that one of the key could not all be satisfied. 139 11 SEPTEMBER 2012 140

Point of Order NHS Audit Requirements (Foreign Nationals) 3.34 pm Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): No. 23) On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Last night we secured today’s Opposition day motion on tuition fees with Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): I beg to move, barely 20 minutes left before the House adjourned. Not That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require the Secretary of only was that a discourtesy to you, Mr. Speaker, and to State to instruct the National Health Service to record and audit officials of the House, but it meant that right hon. and the cost of treatment of individuals not entitled to free health hon. Members had very little opportunity to prepare care and of foreign nationals under the European Health Insurance and submit an amendment to the motion. Is there Card Scheme and other reciprocal healthcare agreements; and for anything that you can do to oblige Labour to give us the connected purposes. topic of their Opposition day in time for the previous Last year’s figures show that under the European week’s business statement, and to ensure that all Members health insurance card scheme alone the UK paid out have at least 24 hours in which to prepare and submit £1.7 billion for the treatment of British nationals abroad, amendments to Opposition day motions? but claimed back only £125 million from qualifying countries. Freedom of Information Act requests have Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for shown that most NHS trusts at best only cursorily audit his point of order. Although the rules of the House the treatment of foreign nationals not entitled to automatic require that notice of Opposition day motions need free health care and GP practices do not record this only be given by the rise of the House on the previous information at all, despite the fact that in many other day, it is obviously helpful if longer notice is given. countries access to primary care has a nominal charge for all patients, including British visitors. That is the case in France and Germany, where an entry fee for primary care is required, and in Spain, where proof of insurance is needed. The purpose of the Bill is not to deny health care to foreign nationals; rather, it is to ensure that the reciprocal arrangements that we have with European economic area nations and other countries are properly used so the British health budget is not unfairly burdened. Many hospitals do not even ask whether patients are foreign nationals, with one poll of NHS managers showing that a third of them did not routinely ask patients about their eligibility for free care. The issue of fairness is key—fairness to the taxpayers who fund the system, and fairness to those who use it. Emergency medical treatment should, of course, always be provided to those who require it at the point of need, without exception. Beyond that, entitlement to free health care is considerably more generous to visitors to the UK and short-term residents than is reciprocated for UK citizens abroad, and our system is more liberal, and lax, than anywhere else in the world. GPs may choose to register any person as an NHS patient, and, indeed, are actively encouraged and incentivised to register all who approach them, even where an individual has no right to free NHS care. Thus, many foreign nationals receive free primary care, including free prescriptions, and, once registered with a GP,essentially have unlimited access via referral throughout the NHS without charge. Secondary care providers have a duty to enforce the regulations and screen all patients for eligibility, applying charges where appropriate, but most do not—they either struggle to do so or do not bother at all. Earlier this year I sent Freedom of Information Act requests to 445 health organisations including primary care trusts, foundation trusts and acute trusts, inquiring whether they screen foreign patients for auditing purposes and, if so, requesting the breakdown figures over a number of previous years. However, there is an added layer of complexity, because a number of small health organisations referred the request to larger regional facilities as they did not hold the information themselves. In addition, several trusts are dealt with in terms of a cluster of PCTs, with one response covering numerous PCTs. 141 NHS Audit Requirements 11 SEPTEMBER 2012 NHS Audit Requirements 142 (Foreign Nationals) (Foreign Nationals) A total of 212 responses were received. What was admit illegal immigrants as patients. In addition, one extremely concerning was that only 105 trusts were able surgery in Essex was ordered to reinstate two failed to respond with data at all. Information, therefore, was asylum seekers from Nigeria, despite current Government supplied by fewer than a quarter of NHS organisations, guidance making it clear that if an application to remain and the data that did exist were patchy. It is worth in the UK is turned down people lose the entitlement to noting that of the minority who responded with data, free NHS treatment. I must pay tribute to my hon. four trusts took over 100 days to reply. One trust, which Friend for the extensive and effective investigations he was unable to provide any information, even asked, has made in this area. He is certainly an asset to the “What do you mean by a patient?” Some 340 said they Select Committee on Health, and I am honoured that were unable to supply any data because the information he is one of the co-sponsors of this Bill. was not held or was too complex. Clearly, the semblance In my constituency, UK Border Agency officials see, of a system that does exist is at best varied, confused on average, 150 cases a year at Gatwick airport of and obscure, and at worst is chaotic, inadequate and heavily pregnant passengers arriving with visitor visas. non-existent. The other week there was an infamous case of a “health Problems with the data that were supplied included tourist”who travelled more than 3,000 miles from Nigeria recording members of the armed forces who are based to Wythenshawe hospital for an emergency caesarean. abroad as being foreign patients; many British citizens It is understood that the woman, who is apparently were also considered foreign just because they had Harvard-educated, flew to Manchester airport and went moved abroad. In addition, some trusts cited information directly to the hospital, where she told doctors that she relating to EU/non-EU patients instead of EEA/non-EEA required the procedure and that she had had a scan in patients, and, thus, their information is not in line with Nigeria. Even when overseas patients try to pay, they the European health insurance card scheme. The most are often unable to do so because the cost of their care common reasons for not supplying data included the is not recorded. A US citizen who asked for a receipt fact that the information is not held, with information after receiving medical care in order to claim the cost relating only to ethnic origin and not nationality being back on their health insurance was told that an invoice recorded. Some trusts claimed that they were not required was unavailable. to collect the information and, thus, do not hold it, I very much welcome the implementation of the whereas others that had some data said that they had overseas visitors hospital charging regulations published held none before 2011. Where there was a refusal to in May, but clearly they need to be confirmed by the supply information, we encountered statements that to force of primary legislation. My hon. Friend the Member do so would entail the investment of an unreasonable for Guildford (Anne Milton), when she was a Health and significant amount of time and resource; suggestions Minister, and my hon. Friend the Member for Ashford were also made that no audit code existed for such (Damian Green), when he was Immigration Minister, costs. said in a March written statement that the Home Office Confusion was evident, with some NHS organisations plans to introduce immigration sanctions on overseas refusing to disclose information and citing section 40 of visitors who refuse to pay appropriate charges for treatment the Freedom of Information Act. They claimed that of more than £1,000 and to share such data between the disclosure could enable individuals to be identified, Department of Health and Home Office. That is a very despite the fact that figures for those foreign nationals welcome start, but the law needs to be changed to treated by the trusts that did respond often ran into the provide certainty. tens of thousands each year. In conclusion, this Bill would qualify residency criteria EU citizens coming to live in the UK do not need to for free NHS care; extend current charging principles to register or take out health insurance, whereas many primary care; create more effective and efficient processes other EU countries require Britons to have insurance to screen for eligibility; and establish more robust methods and/or charge an entrance fee for care. There are similar of securing the recovery of treatment costs, including reciprocal agreements with other nations, including New options for requiring health insurance. Those measures Zealand, Australia and Russia, but the problems are would save the NHS hundreds of millions of pounds a similar to the European example. Any foreign national year, and I commend this Bill to the House. who has legitimately lived in the UK for more than a Question put and agreed to. year is entitled to free NHS care—this is one of the most generous schemes anywhere in the world. That Henry Smith, supported by Chris Skidmore, Refugees and asylum seekers are given free NHS John Pugh, Nicholas Soames, Mr Frank Field, Dr Julian treatment, but if their application to remain in the UK Lewis, Gareth Johnson, Priti Patel, Andrea Leadsom, is turned down by the Home Office they lose that John Glen, Mr David Davis and Andrew Rosindell, entitlement. However—my hon. Friend the Member for present the Bill. Kingswood (Chris Skidmore) publicised this fact in Henry Smith accordingly presented the Bill. May—a local Bristol-based human rights law firm had Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on warned GPs that they face legal action if they refuse to Friday 1 March 2013, and to be printed (Bill 67). 143 11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform 144

Mr Byrne: It is unclear how I might respond to that. I Opposition Day hope I will be able to set out for the hon. Gentleman this afternoon what I think will be a shared set of [6TH ALLOTTED DAY] concerns about how to get this vital project back on track. I hope we have a degree of clarity, honesty and openness from those on the Treasury Bench. Universal Credit and Welfare Reform Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): My right 3.45 pm hon. Friend is starting at a macro level, but last Friday I had meetings with the people who have to apply the Mr Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab): I universal credit scheme in Rotherham. I also met the beg to move, voluntary groups that deal with the people who rely on That this House notes that the Universal Credit is late and over it and there are genuine fears. People want reform and budget; recognises that there is widespread unease surrounding they are not necessarily anti the Government for political the implementation of the £2 billion scheme’s IT system; further reasons, but they do not think that the scheme will work notes that the project is so badly designed that it is set to reduce as it is devised. The computer crashes for which our work incentives for over two million people and hurt small Governments are so famous—both those of which he businesses and the self-employed; believes that Ministers have failed to properly account for numerous basic details of how the was a member and this Government—are a legend in scheme will work, such as its interaction with free school meals or the computer industry. what is to be done with 20,000 Housing Benefit staff; further believes that the project is poorly thought through and is now at Mr Byrne: Let me start with precisely that risk. We risk of descending into chaos; and calls on the Government to were told when universal credit was first proposed that publish the business case, so that the House can see a detailed the IT costs would be in the order of £2 billion. Some plan of implementation, and urgently to set out a plan to address these deep flaws before it is too late. £200 million was taken off for subsidies for another problem with child care created by the Secretary of At the heart of the debate is a very simple principle, State’s friend, the Chancellor. The former Minister which is that anyone in this country should be better off responsible for unemployment, the right hon. Member in work than they are on benefits. That is a principle in for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling), before he departed which we in the Opposition passionately believe. We are for the Ministry of Justice, said that the cost had a party that was founded by and for working people and spiralled to £2.1 billion. Already, two years in, the that is why we want universal credit to succeed. It is project is £100 million over budget and we learned now, however, an open secret in Whitehall that universal yesterday that universal credit, when it is introduced credit is a flagship that is sinking fast. The Treasury, and fully rolled out in 2017, will demand an extra says Mr Nick Robinson of the BBC, £3.1 billion in welfare payments each year. That was the “have long had deep anxieties that” figure that the Department for Work and Pensions gave the Secretary of State to the Office for Budget Responsibility in July last year. “might not be able to control spending” Yesterday, however, the Secretary of State told the on universal credit. Last week, the Minister for the House that he had agreed to a Treasury target of Cabinet Office and Paymaster General, who is an old £2.5 billion, wiping £600 million off tax credits by friend of the Secretary of State, was asked how universal so-called policy designs. Where on earth is that money credit was going. He said: going to come from? It is, I am afraid, a mystery. It is a mystery shrouded in further questions about whether “Are we there yet? Am I absolutely confident we are there yet?” people will be better off in work when universal credit is His answer? “No.” This morning, an unnamed Minister introduced. What on earth is going to happen to free weighed in to support the Secretary of State in his own school meals, which are worth £410 million a year to way with a ringing endorsement, saying that universal families in many of our constituencies and are a vital credit lifeline every week? The Children’s Society says that if “is another car crash waiting to happen”. universal credit integrates free school meals in the wrong The Secretary of State is no stranger to friendly fire. way, that will wipe out incentives to work for 120,000 Indeed, back in 2002, he described himself as the “quiet families. What is going to happen to that budget? man” who was about to “turn up the volume”. Today, Then there is the question of council tax benefit, we are not asking the Secretary of State to turn up the which is worth £5 billion for 6 million households in volume. We are asking him to dial down the chaos and Britain. As it turns out, we are going to get not a dial up the competence in his Department. national scheme but a local scheme because the Secretary The Secretary of State and I share a faith. He, like of State lost his battle with the Secretary of State for me, believes that confession is good for the soul, and Communities and Local Government. He was sat on by today is confession time. We need answers to a host of the right hon. Member for Brentwood and Ongar questions about universal credit and we cannot help to (Mr Pickles), which is a fate we would not wish on get this vital project back on track unless he comes anyone. The result is that whether someone is better off clean about exactly what is going on. in work or on benefits will depend on where they live. The Institute for Fiscal Studies says that universal credit Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): While “severely undermines” the simplification. we are on a religious theme, I wonder whether the right Then there is the question of how universal credit will hon. Gentleman might think about motes and beams, interact with increases in personal allowances, which as there is rather a large beam in the eye of those on the were introduced with such a great fanfare over the past Opposition Benches. year or two. Last week, Gingerbread said that because 145 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform 146 universal credit is calculated on post- tax income, the work. That raises fundamental questions about a system lowest paid would see most of the increase in personal that is about to go live in 150 days. That is why in this allowances wiped out. In fact, when universal credit is debate we want some answers on how these problems introduced, the low paid will lose two thirds of the will be solved. increase in personal allowances. Somehow the Chancellor of the Exchequer forgot to tell us that when he unveiled The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain the proposal in his last Budget. Duncan Smith): I will just give the right hon. Gentleman Then there is the question of how universal credit will some answers on the marginal deduction rates. The fact lock in the cuts to tax credits that hit so many of our is that 1.2 million people will receive a reduced marginal constituents this April. Those cuts now mean, according deduction rate as a result of what we are doing with to answers given to my hon. Friend the Member for universal credit. At the moment, 500,000 families see Stockport (Ann Coffey), that a couple with kids working marginal deduction rates of well over 80%. Virtually part time—and goodness me, there are more people nobody will see that once universal credit comes in. working part time these days—will now be more than Some 2.8 million households will gain and 80% of those £700 better off on benefits than in work. How on earth gains will go to the bottom 40%, improving their life can that send the right signal? chances dramatically.

Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con) rose— Mr Byrne: But the Secretary of State refuses to admit that the marginal deduction rates will get worse for Mr Byrne: Perhaps the right hon. Member for 2.1 million people. Until he answers the question about Wokingham (Mr Redwood) will be able to tell us. what will happen to free school meals and to council tax benefit, he cannot give us the assurance that that number of people will be better off in every single part of this Mr Redwood: Will the right hon. Gentleman give the country. He has to come clean about a system that is House some of his ideas on how we could make it more about to go live in 150 days. He is cutting it too fine, worth while for people to work, given that all parties in which is why No. 10 is worried, why the Treasury is the House think that that is the right aim and that it is worried and why his old friend the Minister for the not worth while enough at the moment? Cabinet Office is worried.

Mr Byrne: That is very much the point of bringing Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): The fact is that the debate here today. We need from the Government 1.4 million people have been on out-of-work benefits transparency about the business case, which is being for nine of the past 10 years. Rather than fear-mongering, kept secret. Until we get to the heart of how the policy shroud-waving and trying to frighten people, why is the will be rolled out, until we get some answers to these right hon. Gentleman not working with the Government basic questions, it is difficult for us to offer some to get the best result and tell those people, “You’re constructive advice—advice we would offer for free. needed in the workplace. We want you to play a part in building up the economy for future generations”? John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab): Will my right hon. Friend take a look at the Rotherham citizens Mr Byrne: If the hon. Gentleman was serious about advice bureau survey, which I have sent to the Secretary wanting to get unemployed people in his constituency of State today? The bureau questioned more than back to work—goodness knows there are enough of 100 people who had been through employment and them—he would support Labour’s proposal for a tax on support allowance assessments last year; more than half bankers’ bonuses that would get 110,000 young people said that the assessment was rushed, nearly two thirds back into work over the course of the next year. said that the assessor did not listen to them and only a quarter felt that the assessor was fully qualified to Mr John Denham (Southampton, Itchen) (Lab): Those assess their medical condition. Does he agree that a fair of us who were here when the Child Support Agency benefits system and a fair universal credit depend on a was introduced know the dangers of introducing legislation fair and accurate system of assessment? that everyone agrees with in principle but that is badly carried out. My right hon. Friend is doing the right Mr Byrne: It absolutely does. Our chief concern is thing by raising these questions, but does he not agree that that open and fair system of assessment will not that it is a little odd that it was the Secretary of State fall into place for universal credit, with enormous who was in danger of being forced out of his job when consequences for our constituents. so many of the problems with the system lie with the The final point about the basic principle of whether Treasury, the Department for Communities and Local people will be better off in work or on benefit is the Government and the Department for Education, all the evidence published by the Secretary of State’s own bits of the Government that are refusing to play ball Department in the impact assessment that he signed with this vision? earlier in the Parliament. The evidence shows that the marginal deduction rates will not go down for many Mr Byrne: My right hon. Friend is precisely right. people but will go up—2.1 million people will see their That is why we are here to help the Secretary of State marginal deduction rates go up when universal credit is this afternoon by setting out some of the questions on introduced. The incentive for them to work does not which, if he was only a little clearer with the House, we increase with universal credit; it goes into reverse. We would be happy to engage and help. One of the issues in have problems with free school meals and with council which we share an interest is the way we support the tax benefit, a short changed personal allowance, the enterprise spirit in this country.The CBI and the Chartered lock-in of cuts to tax credits and a worse incentive to Institute of Taxation have flagged up their worry that 147 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform 148

[Mr Byrne] are made, 297 refuges will have to close. This is not scaremongering; it is bringing to the House’s attention universal credit will be a car crash for Britain’s entrepreneurs. information and arguments provided by one of the The number of self-employed people in this country most important charities in the country. increased by 280,000 over the past couple of years and many people must now look to their own resources for The Minister of State, Department for Work and work, but what is being prepared for self-employed Pensions (Steve Webb): Yesterday in oral questions, at people is frankly chaotic. which I think the right hon. Gentleman was present, the Secretary of State gave categorical assurances about Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): Will the right refuges, so to repeat the smear after receiving those hon. Gentleman give way? assurances is scaremongering.

Mr Byrne: I will in a moment. Mr Byrne: If the Minister is accusing Refuge and We have heard from the Chartered Institute of Taxation Women’s Aid of a smear, I am afraid that he has got his that the system proposed for entrepreneurs will require facts seriously wrong. This element was not in the self-employed claimants to report their transactions original design. Yesterday we finally extracted from the each month and that they will have only seven days Secretary of State a commitment to change; now we after the end of the month to file them. They will have want to know how it, along with a host of other things, to put all that information into a great big IT system will work in practice. and calculate their earnings using a system that is Some of these issues are now bedevilling local authorities. different from the one they use to calculate their tax bill. There is a serious risk that direct payments of universal How on earth does the Secretary of State think Britain’s credit, which includes housing benefit going to the entrepreneurs, who are busy doing other things day to individual, will result in local councils’ arrears bills and day, will deal with the new system? I thought that the eviction rates beginning to rise. We are still no clearer Government were committed to cutting red tape, not about what will happen to the 20,000 housing benefit swaddling entrepreneurs with it if they want any chance staff who work for local councils and will no longer of help with tax credits. Perhaps the hon. Member for have to process housing benefit claims once the DWP St Albans (Mrs Main) can explain a way through it. takes over the task. Are they going to be sacked or made redundant? Who will pick up the bill? Is it yet Mrs Main: The right hon. Gentleman should take a another bill that will fall on the shoulders of hard-pressed little while to consider that not everybody who is self- council tax payers? employed is the entrepreneur he is talking about. The reason that degree of scrutiny is needed is that people Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): In my constituency, who sell The Big Issue for a certain period of time can housing benefit applications are up by between 10% suddenly declare themselves to be self-employed, so the and 15% and extra staff have been employed. The scrutiny is not something he should want to remove; it waiting list for applications to be processed takes anything is a question of whether it is reasonable. If he wishes to from six to eight, or even 10, weeks. Yesterday the help my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, he manager of the housing benefit office told me that only might like to propose a constructive way forward for six months into the scheme he is already cutting back how we can stop people abusing the system by declaring on the moneys that are allocated to try to make them themselves to be self-employed when all they are doing last until next April. Does the right hon. Gentleman is a minimal amount. think that in the case of housing benefit, chaos is knocking on the door? Mr Byrne: Members on both sides of the House want this to work, but if the hon. Lady looks at the evidence Mr Byrne: I am afraid that that is absolutely right. submitted by the CBI and the Chartered Institute for That is the message that is coming back from local Taxation to the Work and Pensions Committee on authorities all over the country. In fact, the Local Friday, she will see that there is now a real worry that Government Association told the Select Committee on this is going to be a catastrophe for the many entrepreneurs Friday that there is who rely on tax credits for help to balance the books at “a real risk that the central Government universal credit IT the end of the month. What I want from the Secretary systems will not be ready on time”. of State is clarity about how this is going to work in practice. That was part of an array of evidence submitted about the mounting risks. The CBI said that the This is the start of a whole series of risks that have been brought to the attention of hon. Members here “tight delivery timetable…is a risk to business”. and in the Select Committee. Flagged up in the evidence Citizens Advice said that universal credit submitted on Friday was the decision to deny people a “risks causing difficulties to the 8.5 million people who have never choice about who receives the money. I hope that the used the internet”. Secretary of State will reform this before implementation The Chartered Institute of Taxation said that for many of universal credit, because many people who run women’s people refuges say that the system is so badly thought through that refuges for women fleeing from domestic violence “The proposed procedures for self-employed claimants…will will have to close. In fact, Refuge tells us—[Interruption.] be impossible to comply with.” This is not scaremongering by me; it is evidence submitted Shelter has said: to the Select Committee by Refuge, which says that the “Social landlords and their lenders have voiced considerable idea is so badly thought through that unless changes concern at the implications of direct payments for social tenants”. 149 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform 150

The Association of Directors of Adult Social Services I know that he does not always see eye to eye with the says that the abolition of severe disability premium is an Minister for the Cabinet Office, but I hope that he will “apparent contradiction of the Government’s stated aim to protect pay heed to his words: the most vulnerable.” “Transparency is at the heart of our agenda for government…We are unflinching in our belief that data that can be published Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): On should be published.” direct payments to landlords, last night I met representatives Unflinching indeed. of south-west housing associations, and to a person Universal credit is a massive project—it is too big to they all expressed serious concerns about the implications be allowed to fail. We need to make sure that it is on for them, their lenders and their loan books. track and I hope that the House will join us in sending an unequivocal message to that effect this afternoon. Mr Byrne: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Once arrears build up, it becomes far more difficult for social landlords to raise the money they need to build much- 4.7 pm needed social housing. These are very serious risks. The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith): This debate cannot take place in a Dame Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab): I vacuum, as the right hon. Member for Birmingham, am grateful to my right hon. Friend for reciting the Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) would wish. Let me start by concerns of a whole range of people and organisations. saying that he is wrong: we are not over budget on the One of the things that has surprised me most is that programme and we are not out of time. Both are every employer in the country will have to report to Her proceeding much according to the plans that we laid. Majesty’s Revenue and Customs on the circumstances He referred to a report or note that mentioned £3.1 billion. of every employee on a monthly basis and sometimes, That was considered as a possible end position and the perhaps, even on a weekly basis instead of annually. Is Office for Budget Responsibility, which is independent, this not going to be an incredible burden on British looked at it well before Members of both Houses had business, which is already in difficulty? completed their scrutiny of the legislation. It was done in July of last year. Since then we have had a series of Mr Byrne: Exactly—as if British businesses were not discussions with the OBR. It has looked at the modelling struggling enough. The point is that the 500 pages of in detail, and continues to do so. evidence submitted to the Select Committee on Friday present to the Secretary of State a whole range of issues Mr Byrne rose— to which we have received no answers, despite the fact that the system will go live in 150 days. The system is Mr Duncan Smith: Wait a minute. already over budget and late, and I am afraid that we now need some urgent answers from the Secretary of As far as the OBR is concerned, we are progressing in State this afternoon. the right direction and the modelling seems to be about right. We are committed to the £2.5 billion a year and Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): Does my the £2 billion of investment in our IT programmes. right hon. Friend agree that one of the great concerns of the many agencies that he has mentioned—they are Mr Byrne: I am grateful to the Secretary of State for worried about how universal credit will affect the client being characteristically generous in giving way so early groups that they work with—is that the funding of in his remarks. Will he explain what policy designs those advice agencies that could support individuals is resulted in the £3.1 billion estimate, made by his own being squeezed and that there will simply be no access Department, dropping down to £2.5 billion? Will he to support, either to make applications or to sort out also confirm to the House that everybody affected will problems when things go wrong? be on universal credit by 2017, as initially planned?

Mr Byrne: That is a real concern. I know from the Mr Duncan Smith: First, I will answer the second fact that a number of advice centres in Birmingham question. That is exactly what we intend and we believe have been forced to close that advice is simply not that we are on track to do just that. The right hon. available for many people in some of the most deprived Gentleman and the House should realise that this is parts of our country. They are being asked to contend not, as has been the case with previous IT programmes, with a new benefit system that is complicated and vital a “waterfall” approach whereby everything explodes to their living standards, so that is a real worry. I hope and is launched on one date, which I think the previous that the Secretary of State will take that into account in Government used to realise was probably not a good his response. idea. This will be a progression over four years, so that, I am going to draw my remarks to a close, because I as we bring in different groups, such as jobseeker’s know that many hon. and right hon. Members want to allowance recipients, and first address the flow, then the contribute to the debate. All I will say to the Secretary stock, and then look at tax credits and how they fit in, of State is that, following the recent attacks on him by we can make sure that we get this absolutely right at the Treasury, the Cabinet Office and No. 10, he could be every stage. We know that there are important things to forgiven for wanting to retreat to the deepest, darkest consider so that people do not suffer as a result of bunker in Whitehall. The truth is that his Department is universal credit. We want to get this right, even as we already one of the most secretive in Government. He is do it. refusing to publish information about the Work programme We agreed on the £2.5 billion figure. That is our and he has refused Labour’s freedom of information position. As we look at all these things, including the request to release the business case for universal credit. disregards, we see that we can realise better ways of 151 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform 152

[Mr Duncan Smith] It is all very well for the Opposition to carp, while saying that they support universal credit, but let me be doing them. It is a work in progress. That is how we are absolutely clear why I believe that we have to do this. able to achieve these things, just as when we looked at First, we inherited a complex mess of 30 different them originally. benefits. There are seven additions relating to disability The right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms) alone, which are complicated for people who are disabled. has peppered us with freedom of information requests, They are often confused about what to do. Some payments which is exactly what an Opposition Member should are available when a person works for 16 hours, some at do. However, it does him and the shadow Secretary of 24 hours and some at 30. Some are withdrawn at 40%, State ill to lecture us about releasing business cases. some at 65% and some even at 100%. Some are net and When they developed employment and support allowance, some are gross. One needs to be a mathematician to a system about as large and complicated as this one—I figure them out. think that the right hon. Member for East Ham was a My previous permanent secretary admitted that one Minister in the Department at the time—at no stage, day, when he was listening to a lone parent who had despite the request, did they ever release their business come in for guidance on what benefit she would receive plan to us. and how it would work if she took extra hours beyond the 16 hours at which she was already being supported. Kate Green: I wonder whether the Secretary of State It took the adviser about 40 minutes to figure out will clarify something that he said in response to my whether she would be better off, marginally in the same right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Hodge position or marginally worse off because of the dramatic Hill (Mr Byrne). He said that the change would be rise in the deduction rates. How can we expect every implemented in stages, with first the flow, then the stock lone parent who is worried about authority and may and then tax credits. Surely the tax credits for the first not come in for help to understand what these things claimants to receive universal credit will have to be mean? The complexity and confusion are a problem. brought in on the first day of universal credit. The decision whether to go to work is often a marginal one, and many people do not feel that it is worth while. Mr Duncan Smith: No; it has always been part of the It is small wonder, therefore, that even before the process that jobseeker’s allowance will be the first to recession there were over 4 million people on out-of-work move across. I am happy to discuss that further. Universal benefits and 1.4 million people who had never worked credit will run in parallel with the other systems until we at all. Things then got a lot worse because of the shut them down and move them across. That is the way recession. The inheritance that we received included it will work. That has always been clear. I think that the 5 million people on out-of-work benefits, youth Chair of the Work and Pensions Committee knows unemployment already high and more children in workless that, because I have been open with her about it from households in this country than in the rest of the the word go. EU—that is a staggering thought. And that came after years of growth and plenty, which the previous Government wasted. John Healey: Will the Secretary of State give way on that matter? Ending that failure is a monumental task, and we have undertaken it because it has to be done, whether there is a Labour Government, a Conservative one, a Mr Duncan Smith: I have explained the plan that we coalition one or even a Liberal one. Universal credit is have and I want to make some progress, but I will give one of the most fundamental reforms to the welfare way. system, and it deserves to be supported and helped.

John Healey: The Secretary of State maintains that Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op) the project is on track, when everybody else seems to rose— think that it is in serious trouble and way off track. Rotherham Jobcentre Plus staff have told me that he Mr Duncan Smith: I have given way quite a bit. If the has told the public that jobseeker’s allowance and new hon. Lady will give me a little leeway I will give way claims for out-of-work support will be treated as new again later, but I want to make some progress. claims for universal credit from October 2013. Is that still the case? A single payment, withdrawn at a clear and consistent rate when people move into work, will make work pay at each and every hour and remove the stumbling block Mr Duncan Smith: I thought that I had been pretty in the current system whereby, as I said earlier, some clear about that. The plan is that, starting in October 2013, people lose out dramatically. They lose 96p in every we will move through the different groups of benefits pound that they earn, which cannot be an incentive to and tax credits progressively over the four years, bringing go to work. Nobody here would take work at that rate, in different groups at different stages. That is how it will and trying to get the deduction rate down has to be a work. We will be giving a big presentation next week for good reason for our reform. members of the media. The Opposition say that they are concerned about work incentives under universal credit. I reassure them John Healey: Has the timetable not slipped? that, as I said earlier, the flat 65% withdrawal rate will mean reduced marginal deduction rates for 1.2 million Mr Duncan Smith: The timetable is not slipping at all. households. What is more, 80% of those gainers are in We are on target. The right hon. Gentleman needs to be the bottom 40% of the income distribution. Why am I, happy about that. as a Conservative, having to stand here and tell the 153 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform 154

Opposition that that is positive? Surely they should that adds up to £2.1 billion, which is £100 million more have ensured that it happened during all the years when than the budget that he has set out. Is the programme they were in power. on budget or over budget?

Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD): The Opposition Mr Duncan Smith: I am never keen to rely on the have mentioned the Work and Pensions Committee a right hon. Gentleman’s maths—that is what ran us into few times. I am a member of that Committee, and trouble in the first place. Maybe this is a confessional although the Opposition are absolutely right to say that now, and I will take that as a confession from him. All I there were some concerns about universal credit, the can say to him is that we are investing £2 billion, but I Secretary of State might be interested to know that the will drop him a note about any detail that he is concerned Committee universally supported the concept of universal about. credit to make work pay. As I said earlier, we are making progress. We completed our first testing stages in August and have already held Mr Duncan Smith: I thank my hon. Friend for those two open sessions with MPs, peers and the media and comments. intend to hold many more. We will demonstrate the IT front-end systems next week and will do so again afterwards Luciana Berger: I listened closely to what the Secretary for many hon. Members. of State said about 1.2 million people having better marginal deduction rates, but his Department’s own Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): impact assessment shows that 2.1 million people will be Will the Secretary of State give way? worse off in work as a result of universal credit. Mr Duncan Smith: Perhaps the hon. Lady will give Mr Duncan Smith: The reality about marginal deduction me a little time. I think I have been reasonably generous—I rates, as I have just said, is that the massive majority of am trying to be because I hope that we can discuss this the money that we are investing will go to those in the issue in the right spirit. I will give way to the hon. Lady lowest income groups, which has to benefit them. People in due course, but first I would like to make a little who would otherwise not enter work because of the progress. margins will now find that it is beneficial to do so. Despite what the hon. Lady and the right hon. Member We will be ready to roll out universal credit across the for Birmingham, Hodge Hill, have said about marginal country in October 2013, and before that we will launch deduction rates, the median increase will be just about the pathfinder scheme in Greater Manchester in April 4%. The truth is that there will be a massive improvement 2013—perhaps some hon. Members do not know that in the marginal deduction rate for vast numbers of yet, but that is the reality. As I have said, the phased households. As I said earlier, half a million people who transition from current benefits and tax credits is expected struggled under the previous Government’s complicated to be completed by 2017, and the safe delivery of taxes had marginal deduction rates of well over 80%. universal credit will be my primary objective throughout. That will not happen under universal credit, which is a For what it is worth, I take absolute, direct and close critical point. interest in every single part of the IT development. I hold meetings every week and a full meeting every two Mr Byrne rose— weeks, and every weekend a full summary of the IT developments and everything to do with policy work is Mr Duncan Smith: I am going to make some progress, in my box and I am reading it. I take full responsibility and I will pick up on some of the points that have been and I believe that we are taking the right approach. made as I go through my speech. If the right hon. Gentleman will bear with me, I will certainly give way Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): Will to him later. the Secretary of State give way? I turn to the delivery of universal credit. As I said earlier, its implementation is on time and on budget. Of Mr Duncan Smith: Perhaps I could make a little course, the process is challenging, and I have never said progress, and then I will give way because I know that anything else. The right hon. Member for East Ham hon. Members have questions. knows that I have a huge amount of time for him and I believe that we are taking the right approach; we believe that he was an effective Minister. When we have have supported the scheme and our methods have received discussed universal credit I have always told him that all support elsewhere. Our use of the “agile” process has our programmes have challenges and risks to them, but received good support from the independent Institute the job of Ministers and our officials is to manage that for Government, which in “Fixing the flaws in government risk. Life has risks, and we deal with them and manage IT” stated: them. The universal credit programme is challenging, “The switch from traditional techniques—” but we are investing £2 billion—I say again to the right those used by the previous Government, and others— hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill, that the figure is £2 billion—to get the infrastructure and IT “to a more Agile approach is not a case of abandoning structure for chaos. Agile projects—” systems right. those used in the private sector— Mr Byrne: But the Secretary of State must have seen “accept change and focus on the early delivery of a working the parliamentary answers that his ministerial colleagues solution.” have provided stating that the implementation costs for I do not underestimate the scale of the undertaking. parts of the programme are now running at £103 million, Some 8 million households will be affected because they £391 million, £600 million and £1 billion. By my maths, are in receipt, either wholly or in part, of some kind of 155 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform 156

[Mr Duncan Smith] do so next week, but on other occasions, too. The whole idea is to move people to the new system, support. I believe, however, that the Department is but we will of course retain the scope to deal with those capable of implementing programmes of this kind. It who have difficulty. has the best record, just as it did when the Labour party was in government, as Opposition Members will recall. The delivery of employment and support allowance Several hon. Members rose— was a good example of that, and the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill who was involved in that Mr Duncan Smith: I am dealing with those who have knows too well the quality of the Department for Work difficulty with the new system. I will give way twice and Pensions. Although the scheme is not without risks, more—first to the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan the Department understands that and we have brought (Dr Whiteford) and then to my hon. Friend the Member in a huge number of people and bodies from outside the for Gainsborough—and then get on. Government to help implement it. Dr Whiteford: Will the Secretary of State address Several hon. Members rose— the question of implementation in the devolved Administrations? A wide range of policy areas is affected. Mr Duncan Smith: I will give way to two people, first UK Ministers have held informal discussions with the to the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central Scottish Parliament’s Welfare Reform Committee, but (Chi Onwurah) because she was first, and then to my will he make a commitment that his new ministerial hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh). team will engage with the Committee, which has expressed concern in the past that such engagement has lacked Chi Onwurah: The Secretary of State was speaking substance? about his pride in the investment in IT systems that his Department has undertaken, but is he concerned that Mr Duncan Smith: Absolutely—nothing makes me by making universal credit available primarily—and happier than getting out of London to visit the devolved eventually solely—online, he will be dependent on Administrations, whether in Cardiff or Edinburgh. I investment by other Departments in the broadband shall spend a day in Edinburgh next week speaking to infrastructure in this country? By abandoning Labour’s that Administration about this very subject, as I have universal promise of broadband availability, many done on a number of occasions. I am engaging in the vulnerable people will not have access to broadband, same way in Wales, as are my colleagues. I can absolutely and will not be able to benefit from universal credit. give the hon. Lady that guarantee. Mr Duncan Smith: I was coming to that point, but I will deal with it now because the hon. Lady has a Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Will the Secretary of legitimate interest and all hon. Members will want to State give way? know about this issue. Two things are important. First, we must understand that the Government and the benefits Mr Duncan Smith: If the hon. Gentleman will forgive system must move alongside what is happening in work. me, I said I would give way to my hon. Friend the Those in receipt of benefits—often long-term benefits—are Member for Gainsborough. often outside and excluded from the workplace because of their lack of ability to work with and manage IT Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): The problem systems. We want to help them to enter the world of with IT systems in the public sector, rather than the online work. private sector, is the sheer scale of numbers—8 million Secondly, the vast majority of people claiming benefits households will use the new system—the complexity of today already use computers and the internet—around the issues and the lifestyle of the recipients. I saw more 80% of those who claim jobseeker’s allowance use failed Government IT systems in my time on the Public computers. Importantly, however, not all of them use Accounts Committee than I have had hot breakfasts. I their computer for claiming benefits, which they often beg the Secretary of State to be cautious, to test and do on the telephone. Over each month we intend to re-test, to pilot and re-pilot, and not to believe a word move more of those people to an online process of spoken to him by IT companies or his civil servants. claiming—already more than 30% of people have started on that, and we intend to increase that figure first to Mr Duncan Smith: My hon. Friend was an excellent 50% and eventually to 80%. We know, however, that to Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee—he is do that we may need to help people enormously, so highly respected among Members on both sides of the jobcentres will be fitted out—we are doing trials—with House—and I absolutely agree with him. That is how I computers and telephones that connect people directly see my role. One thing I have done is brought into the to contact centres. My plan is for contact centres to get system a red team, whose job is to go through and people on to their computers and work through the doubt everything I am told, and to ask questions. Being process with them. One reason people are worried and a sceptic and not believing are part of the process of do not want to go online is that the present online delivering. I absolutely understand that. We are involving system is not good. It is notchy and difficult—I have others in the process—that is our purpose. used it myself—and difficult to get through. We are developing and designing with claimants, jobcentre staff and local authority staff a front-end system that will be Mark Durkan rose— much simpler and easier. I will demonstrate it to colleagues on both sides of the House when we have time—I will Charlie Elphicke rose— 157 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform 158

Mr Duncan Smith: I will give way once more, and have concerns. Of course, they will be concerned and then I am done. will want answers, and we are working and talking with them. We are also dealing with local government, and Charlie Elphicke: Does my right hon. Friend share have shared our draft regulations with the Social Security my concern that much of the Opposition case is based Advisory Committee and are carefully considering its on the idea that people are basically thick—too thick to advice. We are in regular contact with local authorities. use the internet, too thick to budget monthly and too We recently visited many local authorities and are informing thick to pay the rent? A cornerstone of universal credit them about policy work and regulations. is that we trust people and believe in them. We want to We are consulting on the future—this was raised in encourage people to work and to manage their own one or two questions—of the passported benefits and affairs. the interaction with universal credit. That is taking place right now, and we are discussing the matter with Mr Duncan Smith: I understand what my hon. Friend the regular and other Departments. They have to decide says. He refers to the fact that people need to be what they want to do, and we must decide how and helped—that they are often more intelligent than we whether to incorporate that into universal credit. That give them credit for, but that they lack local knowledge process is under way. Rather than constantly saying, and instruction. A legitimate concern of Members on “We can’t do these things, it’s impossible, so we won’t both sides of the House is to protect those who are the try”, it is worth trying to get the system right. One most vulnerable. I will always assume their best intents. problem for many people is that they have to go to so It is our job to ensure that we meet those concerns—that many places for so many different things, they get is my purpose and I intend to meet it. He is right that we confused and often do not get it right, and each time should assume that people are intelligent enough, but they feel a bit more worn down. If we can smooth out that we have to get them to the point at which they use that process and make it easier and more accessible, in the system. due course we will improve the lot of those in the greatest difficulty. Several hon. Members rose— Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab): Does the Mr Duncan Smith: Let me make a bit of progress, Secretary of State now regret responsibility for administering because others might want to speak. council tax benefit being given to local authorities? We have discussed finances. The Government have That seems to fly in the face of the whole concept of always made it clear that the £2.5 billion is additional universal credit and creates the very difficulties he claims and that that was how it would work. We have always he is trying to solve. agreed on that. The nature and design of universal credit means that this is an iterative process. The reality Mr Duncan Smith: I am a huge admirer of the is that we learn as we do the developing. One thing that Chairman of the Select Committee, but her inducements “agile” allows us to do is to rectify previous assumptions for me to express any personal opinion must be resisted. that things have improved because of changes. I can My general view is that localisation is a good thing, and confirm to my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough I am sure that local authorities will robustly deliver a that, as we proceed with the IT project, “agile” will system that works brilliantly.Collectively, we are absolutely allow us to ensure that we do not wait to the end in favour of it. moment to test it; we are testing stuff pretty much the whole time. Mr McCann: The Secretary of State explained that Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and the process is more or less on track. If so, will he explain Lesmahagow) (Lab): Will the Secretary of State give way? the difference of opinion that led the Prime Minister to believe that he should be removed from his post? Mr Duncan Smith: May I make a little progress? I think I have been reasonably generous in giving way. I Mr Duncan Smith: I am not one for discussing what promise that I will try to get the hon. Gentleman in goes on privately. I have been kicking around this game later. long enough to know that sometimes people like other On our engagement, it is clear from what I have just people to move or be promoted, but some of us are not said that the independent OBR has open access. We interested in careers. We reached a settlement and we have been in regular discussions. The right hon. Member are very happy—it was a happy discussion. We are a for Birmingham, Hodge Hill described it yesterday as a Government of friends, we get on enormously well and think-tank, but it is not a think-tank. It accredits and we do not need to worry about what everybody else says decides whether the Government’s calculations and about us. projections are correct. No one has a perfect view of the future, but at least it is independent of all political Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con): I would positions and positioning. It is working with us at the like to take my right hon. Friend back to the online moment. I can assure hon. Members that the process is delivery of the universal credit. Although figures vary, robust and will continue until the Government announce he will be aware that the vast majority of people living the final rates for universal credit and the OBR includes in social housing have no access to the internet. BT does them in its forecasts. That is what we are working to. a social housing telephone tariff. Will he explore the Elsewhere, we are continually engaging with a host of possibility of a social housing broadband tariff to organisations. The Work and Pensions Committee’s enable those who want to claim their benefits online to inquiry concluded, quite legitimately, that organisations do so? 159 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform 160

Mr Duncan Smith: Absolutely right. That is exactly possibly can on to a monthly payment, so that when what we are trying to do, and I will ensure that it is one they go into work they have already completed that of the areas we look at. That is the whole process we are process and it is not a big break for them. engaged in. If we can get more people in social housing Of course we will want to identify—working with online, the net benefit will be phenomenal. We are all councils and local groups, and so on—those in real desperate for more broadband, but the people who will difficulty. Now, here’s the thing. Until now, nobody has benefit the most—for shopping and so on—will be really bothered much about them, unless someone—maybe older people and others in difficulty on lower incomes. an MP—makes a specific effort to try to get something They will benefit massively, if we can begin to get them resolved for them. What we are doing will make us look online. This is a crusade as much as anything else. at why those people cannot cope and then start to surround them with support. It might be about their Dame Joan Ruddock: I am extremely grateful to the ability to budget; it might be that the family has serious Secretary of State for giving way. He said earlier that he drug problems, in which case we will need to get to that. would not publish the business case, despite the request. So, we start looking at the reason, then we can resolve I wonder, however, whether he can tell us something that and move them into the process. We will allow for that we assume might be in the business case. How the ability to settle at two weeks where we think it vitally many hours working in the economy does he expect to necessary, but the mainstream will go to monthly payments. see increased as a consequence of introducing universal However, I am happy to talk to the hon. Gentleman benefit next year? further about that and help him out.

Mr Duncan Smith: If the right hon. Lady will forgive Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): I thank my me, I am not going to give her specific details now, right hon. Friend for giving way and I wholeheartedly although I am happy to talk to her at greater length support the outcome he is seeking in implementing the later on. The point I would simply make is that universal policy. One of the greatest impediments to getting back credit is designed to get more people who are below into work, particularly for low earners, is child care. work, as it were, to cross the line into work. When Will he outline what more the Government can do to people ask, “What is universal credit really about?”, support people with child care costs? they always talk about the taper. That is really important: simplifying the taper allows people to move up the hours. In truth, however, universal credit’s key component Mr Duncan Smith: The whole idea behind the universal is the disregards—the bit we call the participation tax credit is that it allows us not to cherry-pick child care. rate. In other words, right now, unless someone goes That is, we will support child care up the various hours, straight to 16 hours as a lone parent, for example, the because at the moment the system is set so that people participation tax rate—the moment when they join get it only at certain points. Universal credit allows us to work—is so high that there are households that need do that, and we are putting another £300 million behind two earners in work just to have enough money to that. That is a major positive. Universal credit is also a survive as a household. The idea of universal credit is to major positive for lone parents seeking work, because break that down and improve their lot. I cannot give the of the increased ability of the first earner back into right hon. Lady the detail, but I believe that more work to receive that money. That should benefit them people will move up the hours, with more people moving enormously. into higher hours and longer-term work. Let me try to address one other point that was made and then conclude. The Opposition have expressed some Mark Durkan: I thank the Secretary of State for concerns about the universal credit and HMRC’s real-time giving way. He has said that he is taking a hands-on information project, but the scheme will deliver a net approach to the developing IT system. Will he assure us reduction of £300 million in administrative burdens on that the IT system, which will also cover Northern employers. That is important, because the project will Ireland, will be formatted to allow both the continued help enormously with the way we flow information, weekly or fortnightly payment of benefits, if that is the together with HMRC—and I stress “together”. The policy of the Northern Ireland Assembly, and the direct right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill has payment of housing benefit to social landlords, which is made the point about that, both today and to me in the the policy of the Assembly? Will the IT system also be past, but I say to him simply: I am not letting this one able to cope with the problems of cross-border workers? go, as with some other Departments. We are locked into this. In fact, we have now placed one of the DWP Mr Duncan Smith: I was going to deal with a lot of people in the team working on real time information, that in my speech, so the hon. Gentleman is helping me which will report at the same time as the others. We to speed up. Let me deal with monthly payments. I believe that we are making good progress on getting genuinely believe that we need to get people on to RTI moving in the right direction. monthly payments, for a very good reason. Right now, The right hon. Gentleman asked what was to be done about 75% of the work force are on monthly payments. with the 20,000 housing benefit staff. We are dealing We looked at this issue—as I am sure others have—when with this matter sensitively. We recognise that staff across I was at the Centre for Social Justice. One of the biggest the country will have concerns about the impact of the stumbling blocks we found is that when people are out new benefit, which is why we are consulting local of work, everything is paid directly to them every government right now. Although housing benefit will fortnight, but when they go back to work they really be absorbed into universal credit, we must not forget struggle—particularly those who have been out of work that that will not happen overnight. I am sure that any for a little time—to cope with the first few months in impact on job roles will be counterbalanced by, for work. We are looking to get as many people as we example, changes to localised council tax benefit, which will 161 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform 162 require a number of staff. The administration of the Ian Paisley: I thank the Secretary of State for his social fund is also being moved down to local authorities, generosity, and I hope that I will not be too boring. and there will be other work, too. This is a matter for us What contingency plans is he working on to deal with a to discuss with the councils, but it can be dealt with catastrophic failure of the new IT system? For eight sensitively. I do not think that we should get too concerned weeks over the summer, the Ulster bank in Northern about it, but we need to deal with it. I think that there is Ireland was effectively closed as a result of such a scope for all of them. system failure. If it can happen to a bank, it will happen I was asked earlier about the business case. We are to the new system. constantly reshaping and remodelling it, and I do not think that we need to publish it. As I said to the right Mr Duncan Smith: As I have said, we are working hon. Members for Birmingham, Hodge Hill and for through all of that. Of course we have to prepare for East Ham, I am happy to discuss any issues surrounding contingencies and for certain events, and we are looking it at any time. They are always invited in; it is always at that right now. It is part of the process of developing good to have a drink with them and discuss these the system. matters. No one has asked me about the security of the system, but I might as well be open about it. That is of Alison Seabeck: In Plymouth, we have more than course an area that we are working on. We are learning 80% broadband coverage, but we do not have that level the lessons from what happened when the banks started of broadband connection. A lot of my constituents are operating online, and we are now engaged with various very poor and do not have internet access. They use organisations, including GCHQ, and talking about those their mobile phones to access the internet, but they matters. A long, detailed, iterative process of work is cannot use them for downloading documents. There is taking place to try to cover every eventuality, and I therefore likely to be a surge of people going into promise the hon. Gentleman and the House that we jobcentres and elsewhere seeking support. My constituency shall leave no stone unturned. also has quite a high level of illiteracy. Does the Secretary of State intend to bolster the number of staff in jobcentres I recognise why the Opposition wanted this debate, to deal with that potential early surge, perhaps using and I know that people have read bits and snippets from some of the staff in housing benefit departments who the newspapers. People should not always believe everything could lose their jobs? they read in the newspapers, however. Personally, I do not read them often these days for that very simple Mr Duncan Smith: The hon. Lady obviously would reason! None the less, I say to the Opposition and to not expect me to make a commitment on that now. I can every Member that if we get universal credit right—I tell her what we are doing, however. I have visited a believe that we will, and we are working to achieve it—it large number of jobcentres and talked to the managers will benefit all our constituents. It is a major plus and a and staff about what will happen when we move over to key reform—one that will genuinely define us as a the new process. A number of jobcentres are already Parliament that cared enough to take on the risks and trialling ways of speeding up the online process of achieve this. Not to do so risks too much for people as moving people to the new system. We are going to they head into the modern world unable to cope, unready install computers and have staff ready to advise people. and believing that they and their families will never see When they come in to make their claim, they will be the process of work, which will scar them for the rest of shown to a computer, with a telephone or an adviser, their lives. and helped through the process. So, if they cannot do it at home, they should at least be able to do it at a jobcentre, with guidance and help. 4.45 pm I am also talking to my colleagues at the Department Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab): This is a for Culture, Media and Sport, because we really need to timely debate. I would say that, wouldn’t I, as I chair the get broadband to all areas, and we need to do it pretty Select Committee that happens to be undertaking an fast. I accept that that is a matter for the Government. inquiry into the implementation of universal credit. I We are not just telling people that they have to do this, hope that today’s debate and the findings that my and then forgetting about them. We are going to ensure Committee will eventually publish—I cannot say exactly that those who have no internet access have another what they will be in advance—will help to highlight way to complete the process. We are also looking at important issues to the Secretary of State and his different ways of using mobile telephones for making Ministers, such as the questions that still need answers, certain types of claim. There is a whole process taking the decisions that still have to be taken and the unintended place, and nothing is being left to chance. If the hon. consequences. I know that witnesses have already presented Lady has any ideas, we would be pleased to hear them. I us with a number of such consequences in the evidence am sure that they will be brilliant. we have taken. Some groups will be worse off under universal credit and some will lose out. [Interruption.] I Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP) rose— hope that the Secretary of State is listening, as he is due to appear before the Select Committee on Monday; he Mr Duncan Smith: I was not going to give way again, has until then to find out all the answers. because the Deputy Speaker is looking at me with the We know that major change costs money, not just kind of look that says, “This boring bloke needs to shut in administration and set-up costs: the Government up and sit down as soon as possible so that others can have said that there will be cash protection so that there speak”, but if the hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian will be no cash losers at the point of transition from Paisley) is very quick, I will give way to him. existing benefits into universal credit. Those transitional 163 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform 164

[Dame Anne Begg] I know that the Government will not want to plan for failure, but, as was pointed out by the hon. Member for arrangements will then be frozen until the universal North Antrim (Ian Paisley)—who has now left the credit level is reached or the cash protection will be lost Chamber—they need to have a contingency plan in case when there is a change of circumstances. the worst happens, or, indeed, the system proves to be The Government are already cutting large areas of susceptible to large-scale fraud. I hope that the worst support that people receive—in-work credits next year, does not happen, but, given the Government’s record of for example, while housing benefit is already being IT failures, the possibility must have crossed Ministers’ reformed—and there are more changes to come. Child minds. It is not enough to say that the tax credit IT care tax credit is being reduced, while the rules for disaster was the Treasury’s fault, as the Treasury is working tax credit for couples have changed so that involved in universal credit with real-time information, people have to be in work for more than 25 hours in which is not being developed on the “agile” system by order to qualify. Under the new universal credit, certain which the Secretary of State sets so much store. things will not exist, particularly various premiums I must admit that—apart from the disastrous Child received by many disabled people and their carers. Support Agency—the DWP has a better reputation There probably will be fewer cash losers than originally than most for delivering new IT systems, although that anticipated as people move on to universal credit because is not saying much. However, all its previous systems quite a number of people will already have lost their have been delivered over a much longer time scale, with benefits or have seen a reduction in their income. That is much more testing, than will be the case with universal probably good for the Government in respect of transitional credit. protection because it will cost them less, but it is potentially The Government say that they have learnt from the bad for the claimant who is going to have to live on less experience of tax credit that there will not be a “big money. bang”, because not everyone will come into the system This is a huge subject, so let me concentrate my on day one. However, for individual families there will remarks on the most vulnerable. Even by the Government’s be a big bang, because all their benefit, or income, will own analysis, some people will not be able to manage be put at risk if anything does go wrong. the online claims system or, indeed, the monthly payments. Let me return to the subject of those who will not be The Government use the term “digital by default”, but able to manage the new system. Let us take the best-case it will be impossible for many people, perhaps because scenario that the Government have painted today, and of their IT skills or indeed as a result of the cost of assume that the IT system works perfectly, with no accessing the equipment. I was glad to hear the Secretary hitches; that most people adapt to the monthly payments; of State say that there would be terminals in Jobcentre that the welfare rights people and all the other organisations Plus centres, as that has not come out to date in the are given lots of money by the Government, are well evidence we have taken; let us hear the announcement trained and provide plenty of advice; and that 80% of on Monday. people—or even 90%, but the Government are saying The Government say that most people will manage 80%—are able to access the on-line form and make the process or will soon adapt to it. It is great if they do, their applications digitally. Even if all that works, there because if the majority are not able to manage the will still be people who will not manage. The success or system as it has been designed, it would be a catastrophe. otherwise of universal credit will depend on how well It would also be a catastrophe if the IT did not work. In they are catered for, even if the proportion is as low as that case, everyone claiming universal credit, including 10% or 20%. If it is only 10%, that still represents those who are computer literate and can manage the 770,000 households. More than 1 million people will system, will be in deep trouble. This is not a single probably struggle with the system, and on the basis of benefit such as tax credits. Then, when the IT went the Government’s own figures the number could be wrong or did not work properly in the first place, it more than 2 million, so I hope that the Government are meant only a part of the family’s income not being paid. paying a great deal of attention to that group of people. Families were not left destitute, as they had other income to fall back on until the problem was sorted out or until Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con): Does the hon. Lady interim payments were put in place. That cost an absolute really think that the only measure of universal credit’s fortune at the time. If the IT does not work for universal success will be what may happen to the most vulnerable, credit, families will receive no money. They will not be about whom all of us feel understandable concern? able to pay their rent, pay any bills or buy food. As is Does she not think that an important measure of its inevitable in such circumstances, it will take time for the success will be the fact that it will increase incentives to arrangements to be put in place, and they may become work, and will make work pay for those who want to destitute before that happens. return to the work force?

Dame Anne Begg: If the group about whom I have Alison Seabeck: Given the potential for arrears and been talking cannot access the system, there is very little non-payment of bills, there may be serious problems chance that they will be able to return to work. That is with credit ratings, which would have huge knock-on why the support is needed. effects for many people. Mr Duncan Smith: I had not intended to intervene, Dame Anne Begg: We should also bear in mind the but I think that I ought to take up the point that the debt that those people will incur in the meantime, and hon. Lady has raised. Our plans already take account of the fact that, even when the money has been paid, it will a number of people who will not be online. We want be difficult for them to get back on to an even keel. 50% of those receiving the benefit to be online when we 165 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform 166 launch the system in October 2013, and we want the call themselves the Labour party, yet too often when in proportion to rise to 80% by 2017. We have always had office they gave the impression of being the non-labour parallel arrangements for those who will not be online, party. This coalition is on the side of the working and we will explain those key arrangements to the hon. person—those who are working in a job in order to Lady. earn money and bring cash back to their families, and thereby to lift their children out of poverty. Dame Anne Begg: I thank the Secretary of State, and It was often said in past times that the best cure for may I also make a plea for it to be easily accessible, high deprivation is a job. Many people in my constituency quality and free, which is very important, too? live in deprivation. It is important to get people back The poorest in our society are already disadvantaged into work, to incentivise and encourage people to be in in the digital age. They have already fallen behind the work and to make work pay; that is an important rest of us. Universal credit and its reliance on digital message to send. That is why I see universal credit as a claims could exacerbate that still further. Instead of message of optimism saying that we want everyone to giving people living in poverty the help and support, play their role, and that everyone is expected to play and the access to work, that raises them out of poverty, their role and to be active in the workplace. universal credit could plunge them further into poverty I support universal credit because it is a simpler and disadvantage. That would be a disaster. system. It makes the situation easier to understand. We will not know the full impact of universal credit There are not five different types of payments; there is until we know the level at which it is set. Despite what just one simple payment. It is a fairer system, too. the Secretary of State has said today, only then will we Rather than people losing 90p in the pound—thereby know the real marginal reduction rates and who will be entirely disincentivising them from working harder to better and worse off—who will be up, and who will be get a pay rise or from working longer hours—only 65p down—and whether people genuinely will be better off in the pound will be withdrawn, which incentivises them in work. Only when we get the real figures for real to work harder and for longer, and to bring more families, rather than the scenario planning that has prosperity back to their families. gone on thus far, will we be able to see whether universal credit will work and they will have more money. Until then, a lot of what we are discussing is just an academic Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): Is the hon. Gentleman exercise. We need to get those figures, and I hope they worried, as I am, about the proposals of some local will come soon. authorities to add a 40p in the pound taper on council tax benefit on top of the 65p taper he has just talked There is, however, a great deal to play for. I said on about? Under that approach, people who earn more Second Reading of the Welfare Reform Bill that a single would get less because they would lose more benefit working-age benefit is the holy grail of welfare reform. than they would gain in income. It is now up to the Government to make sure it does not turn out to be a very expensive cracked clay pot. Charlie Elphicke: The right hon. Gentleman knows, 4.56 pm as I do, that the fine tuning of council tax is still under discussion and still under way, and I hope that that will Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): For me, universal come out in the wash. I represent a coastal constituency, credit is important first of all because of the message it so I watch that situation carefully, as I know my coastal sends. It sends a very clear message that everyone of MP colleagues have been doing. They, too, want to working age in this country is needed and has the ensure that the low paid in our constituencies are not potential to do really well in the workplace—that they adversely hit. That is an important point, but it is a fine are needed to help to build up our economy and put the part of the detailing of the implementation of the “Great” back into Britain. Too often in the past there policy rather than the overall purpose of the policy, has been a tone of pessimism which accepts that it is which is to encourage work and to give people more okay for people just to sit at home all day on benefits money if they work harder, do better, skill up and get a and do no work. We can see that in the figures. This better job. That is a really important thing. Government inherited a situation in which some 5 million people were on out-of-work benefits, and 2 million children were growing up in homes where no one worked. Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op): Furthermore, 1.4 million of those 5 million people had The hon. Gentleman is talking a lot about how universal been receiving out-of-work benefits for nine of the last credit will make entering the workplace available to 10 years. everybody. Is he concerned about the absence of the second earning disregard, which means that the second Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con): Does my hon. person in a relationship would not really have that work Friend agree that the previous benefit system acted as a incentive? Is he concerned that perhaps behind some of disincentive to people to explore work possibilities and this there is an assumption of a model where the man their own potential, and that the purpose of universal goes out to work and the woman stays behind at home? credit is to allow people to get back into work and develop their potential, and thereby to liberate them Charlie Elphicke: The hon. Gentleman lives a bit from the welfare state? more in the past than I do; I am the second earner in my household, as many men are in theirs. We Conservatives, Charlie Elphicke: I thank my hon. Friend for making as the more progressive party, understand that. He that important point. That is, indeed, the kernel of what should know—[Interruption.] He has had his go. He universal credit is about: it gives a clear message that it should know that second earners in households will not pays to work and it is good to work. The Opposition lose out under the universal credit. 167 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform 168

[Charlie Elphicke] no one can take responsibility. It is assumed that if they find it difficult to take responsibility, they should be One thing that I particularly welcome is that universal spoon-fed rather than encouraged, helped and enabled credit is progressive; the poorest will gain most, according to take more responsibility for their lives. to the Institute for Fiscal Studies. It says that the bottom six tenths on income distribution will gain on Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): I agree that we average, while the richest four tenths will lose out slightly want to encourage people to take care of their own in the long run. This is therefore a progressive policy, affairs, but there is a conflict in that many people do not benefiting the poorest most. have the financial capability to do so. The funding for many of the organisations that provide them with advice Kate Green: I wish to take the hon. Gentleman up on and support is also under pressure, with the result that this point about second earners. The logic of the system they do not have the capacity to support those people is that for the second earner in a couple it will not be through that process. Does not the hon. Gentleman worth working more than a very few hours a week. The think that this is perhaps not the right time for such an problem with that is that it will, in the longer run, approach and that we need to invest in services to give inhibit that person’s labour market prospects and have people financial capability? an impact on that family’s future prosperity. Charlie Elphicke: Six million second earners will be Charlie Elphicke: Just because they do not have that better off. Importantly, 2.5 million working families will capability today does not mean that we should write gain in the long run from the introduction of universal them off for all time. It does not mean that we should be credit—again, that is according to IFS figures, not the pessimistic or defeatist, as the previous Government Government’s figures. The Opposition are normally so too often were. keen to use the IFS figures, so it is worth quoting those Let us look at the facts. Some 75% of people in work figures to them and underlining how many people will today are paid monthly and if someone is going to go back be better off. That contrasts sharply with the scaremongering into the workplace, they need to get used to monthly that we have heard from the Opposition today. payments. When the previous Government moved from The other really important thing is that universal weekly to fortnightly payments, all the usual customers, credit will help to lift children out of poverty. Universal suspects and groups popped up and said that it would credit is a transformational change which will affect be a disaster, but what actually happened? People managed. some 8 million households, and we hope that 900,000 If we trust people, they often step up to the plate. We individuals, including more than 350,000 children and need to accept that people are able and responsible and more than half a million working-age adults, will be have the ability to be successful in taking responsibility lifted out of poverty as a result. The real question is: for their lives. why did the previous Government not do it? Why do the Opposition not embrace it and work constructively Nicola Blackwood (Oxford West and Abingdon) (Con): with the Government on the fine tuning and detailing I agree with my hon. Friend’s point about the need to of this policy to get the best for all our electors, in trust people as well as the need to move towards monthly whichever constituency we represent. payments and increase people’s capacity to go back into We are also investing an additional £300 million in the workplace. I understand that the DWP is considering child care support under universal credit, on top of which individuals might need exemptions and support £2 billion already being spent under the current system. for certain aspects of universal credit, and does he agree That is worth pointing out, given a lot of the that there are certain circumstances in which exemptions scaremongering we have heard about child care, as it and support might be necessary? I am thinking in shows the Government’s seriousness about helping out particular of joint payments in circumstances where with child care. That will mean that more families than individuals might be at risk of domestic abuse, in which ever before will receive child care support, including case joint payments might present a barrier to a safe exit. 80,000 prevented from doing so by the current hours rule. Charlie Elphicke: I am sure that the Minister will deal Universal credit is the right policy and this is the right with that point when he winds up the debate, but I time for it. We know that government and IT systems heard my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State say do not make good bedfellows—they do not make happy from a sedentary position that the Government are couples—and that there have been difficulties in the dealing with that. It is important. past. However, the previous Government should not Of course, there will always be cases where people are judge this Government by their standards, and we should unable to use computers at all, because they have severe look at the implementation of employment and support dyslexia or other such conditions, and we need to be allowance, as that was not an IT disaster. The Department understanding of that. I draw a lot of comfort from the for Work and Pensions has a good record, so we should fact that we are hearing from the DWP that jobcentres give it the benefit of the doubt. Nevertheless, we should will help to lead people through the process to ensure watch carefully to make sure that all goes well and all that they can access modern technology and be up for continues to be moving on time. Universal credit is using it. Surely that is right, because we want people in important because it is very much for the many, with the workplace to be able to access and use the most 2.5 million households that will gain. That is an important modern technology. That is why we should not write part of the reform. people off. Finally, we should trust people. There is too much of Surely the more that people are using the internet, the a tendency in the House to think that no one can more that they are used to monthly payments and manage, that we have to spoon-feed everyone and that monthly budgeting and the more they are used to paying 169 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform 170 their rent like everyone else who is not on benefits, the The people of West Dunbartonshire feel let down by better. I urge the Opposition to consider a change of both the UK and the Scottish Governments, and that heart about trusting people, to think that people can may be one reason why they booted out the SNP take responsibility for their lives and to take a more council and elected a Labour one in May. They have optimistic viewpoint. We will then be able to send a never elected a Tory council, I am glad to say. Even for clear message to people that we believe in them, that those people who are in work, many are now worse off they have a role to play in the future success of the as a result of the Government’s changes to tax credits. country and that more of them should be able to be in The new criteria on minimum working hours mean that work and play their part in making this country great some families will be better off out of work and on again. benefits. Is that really what the Government want; is it what their Back Benchers want? I really do not think it Several hon. Members rose— is, so I suggest that they look again at the system. It should never be the case that it is better to be on Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. Many benefits than in work—[Interruption.] Well, this is what people want to speak and the debate is important, so I the Government are doing. If Government Members am going to reduce the time limit to seven minutes. If do not like it, I suggest that they tell their Government. Members try to reduce the number of interventions, that will help everybody to get in. Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): So does the hon. Lady support the benefit caps that mean that some will be better off working? That is presumably why she 5.8 pm voted against them. Gemma Doyle (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op): I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in the debate, Gemma Doyle: I want work to pay for everyone and mainly because, since I was elected at the last election, I what the Government are doing means that it does not have been contacted every single week by constituents for some families, and that is the black-and-white truth. who are concerned about the Government’s plans to In West Dunbartonshire 200 households are set to shake up the benefit system—the so-called welfare lose up to £4,000 a year as a result of the Government’s revolution—and about what it will mean for them. changes and, with the jobs market already very difficult Universal credit was supposed to lie at the heart of and businesses struggling to keep afloat, it is almost that revolution, but it appears to be unravelling. The impossible for people to increase their working hours. Secretary of State’s flagship project is descending into Unemployment in West Dunbartonshire was falling chaos; it is £100 million over budget and the timetable before the Government were elected, but under their has slipped by several months. He needs to get a grip on stewardship of the economy it is rising again. What the it before it sinks and takes £2 billion of public money Secretary of State and his Ministers forget is that when with it. I am surprised that he did not take the chance of they make a decision the people who pick up the pieces a free transfer to another team to get him out of the are the volunteers and staff who try to help people mess. through the welfare maze. That includes the staff in A welfare project as all-encompassing as universal Jobcentre Plus and in my constituency it includes West credit is too important to get wrong. We are not talking Dunbartonshire welfare rights service, the Independent about numbers and schemes but about people having Resource Centre and the citizens advice bureau. They enough money to feed and clothe their children and are all swamped at the moment. They help people with keep warm. In Scotland we have experience of the Tory appeals and frequently win them because Atos has such Government testing out their flawed policies and failing a low rate of getting it right the first time around. Even in the face of mass opposition, and I worry that this for people who win their appeal the stress continues policy will be as disastrous as the poll tax. I sincerely because they are soon sent for further assessment; they hope that it will not. are knocked back, taken off benefit again and go into a One of the few things that most Members agree on is never-ending cycle of appeals and assessments. the importance of a welfare system that encourages One of the organisations has told me that often people who are able to do so to look for work. It is very claimants are told on the phone that they have been difficult for people to find a job at the moment, and if judged fit for work, and that the clock has started the Secretary of State is as compassionate as he makes ticking on the time within which they can appeal, but out, he should recognise that when he does his tour that they cannot make that appeal before they receive round Glasgow. In West Dunbartonshire more than the formal decision notice, which often does not appear 19 people are chasing every job vacancy. At times in the until more than a week later. I would ask Ministers to past year that number has been as high as 40 and it look at this issue; I hope that it is not an attempt continues to fluctuate. to squeeze the amount of time that claimants have to The Government have cut the number of public make an appeal. The delay is certainly making it more sector jobs in West Dunbartonshire, including at Jobcentre difficult. The organisations in my constituency have Plus. The Scottish National party Government have also raised with me the problem of the IT equipment excluded my constituency from any assistance such as used to move towards the online system. from enterprise zones and the youth unemployment I also want to raise briefly a specific concern about strategy fund despite the fact that when they announced the replacement of disability living allowance with the the areas that would get money, West Dunbartonshire new personal independent payment. Earlier this summer had the highest youth unemployment and had been the Prime Minister apparently intervened to ensure that named as the most difficult place in the whole of injured veterans would not have to undergo further Scotland to find a job. The SNP continues to ignore us. assessments for PIP and to protect their benefits, but I 171 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform 172

[Gemma Doyle] that they did so with entirely the right intentions, but it has led to this generational and cultural issue. I think understand that no definite protections have yet been that we can alter this cultural perception so that working put in place. I have been contacted by a veteran who is becomes something to aspire to, rather than the exception very concerned that only those who qualify for the in many families. armed forces compensation scheme will be covered by In that context, I should like to address one or two of the protections and that pre-2005 veterans who were the concerns that have been raised, starting with the injured during their service and receive a war disablement question of managing money and monthly payments. pension will not be covered under the protections. I ask This is about a practical need. If someone who is the Minister to look at that issue and hope that we will unemployed goes straight into a job, there is a strong have some clarity on it soon. chance that they will end up getting paid on a monthly There were elements of the universal credit that sounded basis, and not many employers will give a new employee promising, such as a simpler and more streamlined an advance. application process, but there are many outstanding concerns, as we have heard today. I support a welfare Dr Whiteford: The hon. Gentleman will be aware that system that makes work pay. I would also support a many people who work in part-time jobs, particularly Government who create work, but this Government are women, are still paid on a weekly basis. That is not failing to do that. unusual among lower-paid workers.

5.15 pm Nick de Bois: That is why I chose my words carefully. Many people will be paid in that way. However, in this Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): I am grateful for debate we risk letting the whole programme be driven the opportunity to contribute to the debate. I am not by a group of individuals, be it those that the hon. Lady recognised for praising those on either Front Bench, but mentioned or those who are unfamiliar with computers, I must say that I am pleased that both sides genuinely who may be in the minority but are none the less seemed to take a workmanlike approach to the debate. significant. That is not the right approach. I would turn Furthermore, I hope that there is a genuine consensus the telescope round and look the other way, and help that the debate is about getting people back to work, those groups to aspire to have control over their money rather than labouring on about welfare cuts and so on, on a monthly basis or to become computer-literate. which would be the more stereotypical debate. I think That is the difference in emphasis that I would suggest. that the premise that it is about getting people back to I see the hon. Lady shrug and sigh, but I offer those work is genuinely accepted. At moments during the comments in the spirit of our all wanting to improve the debate I wondered whether Opposition Members are quality of people’s lives and their opportunities to move fair-weather friends of that argument, but I hope I am forward. generous in assuming that it is the main goal. Managing money is also about individual responsibility. I will set out a little context before turning to some We have seen an attitude building up whereby people specifics. In 2010 around 5 million people—12% of the are almost saying, “The state will look after me and the working-age population—were effectively trapped on state will do this for me.” We cannot accept that any out-of-work benefits. It is also true that many of them— more; it is wrong. It does not encourage the right about 1.5 million—had been receiving such benefits for motivation to take responsibility for our lives, when we a considerable time, which meant that we were dealing can. There must be a practical and moral drive to with not only a personal problem that was individual to increase personal self-sufficiency. each of those people, but a cultural problem that demanded The argument about computers is valid, particularly change to help move them from a life of dependency to where broadband issues arise. I am pleased that Ministers one of independence. have recognised the problem and will try to provide Reforming welfare is as much about driving cultural access to computers to overcome it. We have talked in change as it is about the process. We are fighting something terms of percentages. There are about 3,500 jobseeker’s that has become intergenerational and almost institutional. allowance claimants in my constituency; I am pleased Worklessness and welfare dependency are two evils that to say that the number is slightly diminishing. We are very close together and they do not simply develop should not call into question the proposed universal in difficult economic times; we have enjoyed long periods credit merely because 700 of those people may not be of growth, yet 11% of the working-age population—some able to get access to or use a computer. If 2,800 people 4 million people—were on out-of-work benefits during can do it, we should work harder to help the other those years. It is interesting, although worrying, that 700 to achieve it. Perhaps that is, again, another way of during the last economic boom employment rose by looking at the problem. around 2.5 million, yet a great deal of that was in the Like others, I am very cautious about IT systems. public sector and more than half was accounted for by When I worked in my own company, we used to plan for non-UK nationals. This is not an immigration debate a bill of £20,000 and it often came in a lot higher and and I am not trying to make that point, except to with few of the results that we needed. That is a fact of register the huge challenge we face in driving the welfare life. It is daunting to see some of the Government system to help put people back to work. projects that have gone wrong in the past, so I applaud The shift is now about moving from handouts being the approach that this Government are taking, and I at the centre of the welfare system to putting work first. think that the House rightly gives it credit. This computer I know that we could look over the previous Government’s system is not going to be launched with a big bang on time in office and say that they continually grew the day one; it is being trialled and done in stages, and welfare state—it is a fact; it happened—and I suggest that is correct. To be fair, we should give credit to the 173 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform 174

Secretary of State and his team for learning from the but look at them now—they are going to run out of lessons of the past in trying to drive good value. I wish speakers unless the Whips get more into the Chamber. him well in his task, as I am sure that the whole House By contrast, a galaxy of Opposition Members want to does. I note that Labour Members have some concerns contribute. [Interruption.] The seven-minute rule has about this, but from the perspective of the overall goal, been applied purely and simply because we will not they are manageable. otherwise fit in all the Opposition Members who wish to speak. The atmosphere is changing. The Secretary of State will not have seen how glum his supporters looked 5.23 pm when he was making his contribution. It is a totally Mr Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab): I want to touch different situation from that during the Second and on three themes. First, the importance of this debate Third Readings of the Bill. What some of us forecast is goes beyond universal credit, because it is the big test of coming home to Government Members. whether an approach to welfare reform that has been Let us put to one side all the IT schemes that we increasingly based on means-testing is the correct strategy failed with and look at when we tinkered with tax for us to follow. Secondly, I want to explain why I fear credits back in 2005. That scheme was much narrower that this will be a disaster despite all the comforting in scope than this one. The then Prime Minister had to words that we have heard. Thirdly, I want to suggest to come to the House to apologise for the chaos that we my right hon. and hon. Friends that if that is the view managed to create. Nearly 2 million people were being that emerges in the country, we will need an alternative overpaid and there was little chance of getting the to strategies of the kind that we have been deploying for money back from them, and 750,000 people were being the past 50 or more years. underpaid. The lessons for making the proposed changes, First, I have nothing but praise for the Secretary of even if they are made in stages, are difficult. Although I State for how he has engaged with the debate. He has wish the Government well, I doubt whether they will be accomplished an extraordinary feat by getting into a that much better than we were when we implemented a new area, mastering it and introducing his own proposals; reform that was far less ambitious than their scheme. but the fact that he is so exceptional in that sense does The disaster will not only come from the IT. Why the not necessarily mean that his proposals will work or are secrecy? Why has not the pilot on the operation of the desirable. Means tests rot the souls of individuals. We scheme been released to the Department for Work and have heard lots of talk about how important this is and Pensions? The Secretary of State says that a member of how people will be better off in work than out of work, the team is now in the Department, but I can tell him but even if someone is a saint, means tests will corrupt that, even if someone is a Minister in a Department, it them. is possible for people to make sure that departmental Let us assume that someone who wants to work is in information cannot be accessed, never mind information the very small group of people whom we are paying that is shared by Departments. Why the secrecy over more than 90%, which will be reduced to 65%. Under that? Why have the senior civil servants on this project this reform, the number of people who will pay higher been lost? Why cannot Opposition Members get more marginal tax rates will be higher than that under the information about the real-time working? The crucial previous proposal. What is being clawed back makes point is not whether Sainsbury’s or Marks and Spencer people question whether it would be worth taking on can fit into that—of course they will be able to. The overtime, an extra job or getting qualifications. If those problem is with the vast majority of employers from on the Treasury Bench think that the rich in this country whom the Revenue already has difficulties getting an will not get off their backsides and work harder if we annual return, let alone a monthly return or an even tax them at 50% and that we therefore need to reduce more frequent one. the rate to 45%, why do they think that that stick of Perhaps understandably, the Government are secretive making people marginally better off will work for the over their risk register. I hope that the National Audit poor? Office will be more effective than Parliament has been There are two groups of people: those who are in in looking at that, so that we can be more aware of what work wondering whether they would be better off, and the risks are and of how the Government have tried, or the 1.45 million people—which is the figure that the not tried, to counter them. hon. Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) kept coming up with—who have never worked. If those on the I do not have time to get on to my third theme. I will Treasury Bench think that tweaking the marginal rates seek another occasion to discuss it. It is all very well for of tax will get a large number of those who have turned us to criticise what we fear is going to happen. Come the down jobs to actually work, they have another think election, I hope that there will be an alternative proposal, coming. That is not to say that there are not huge based on real wage rates. armies of people who wish to work and who would jump at any job, but we delude ourselves and misrepresent Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): our constituents if we believe that the whole body of Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? people who are registered as having never worked since they left school are eager to get a job. They are not and they will certainly not be affected by universal credit. Mr Field: I will give way, because then I can have an extra minute. My second point is on how the atmosphere has changed. During the Third Reading debate of the Welfare Reform Bill, the Government Benches were full and Mr Stuart: I was intervening to be helpful, because Government Members were baying at us. Their tails the right hon. Gentleman is making such interesting were up and they were confident about the reform, points, on which I hope he will expand. 175 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform 176

Mr Field: The alternative to the means-testing strategy got. We have got the biggest shake-up of the system in that we have pursued with ever greater vigour over the 40 years. That is not necessarily a good thing—a number past 50 years is to look at the distribution of incomes of of colleagues have talked about the history of public people at work, to look at low wages and to ask how we sector IT programmes, and I do not even want to go can raise people’s real wages. Secondly, I believe that there—but it is a substantial change. there must be a fundamental change in the welfare state I defer to the right hon. Gentleman somewhat—forgive from a means-tested system, in which we meet people’s me for mentioning him again, but it is a privilege to needs, to the welfare state that was originally envisaged, speak straight after him—in agreeing with him that the in which people draw benefits because of the contributions opinion has become ingrained in many of our citizens that they make, either in work or in a wide sense to the over a number of generations that there has to be some community. I do not underestimate how fundamental sort of means-testing process to get people into a position that change would be, but when the system crashes, we in which they are prepared to work. That is linked to the will need an alternative. Work programme. For all its challenges, of which there I am immensely grateful to the Chairman of the are many, it recognises that we have to offer training Education Committee for allowing me the time to make providers enough money that it is worth their while to that point. get people into work and sustain them there. I mention that because before I was elected I was a 5.31 pm trustee of the Royal National Institute for Deaf People and was involved in a number of disability charities. For Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD): It is a privilege to many years, training providers used to do what they speak in this debate and to follow the right hon. Member called creaming and parking. They would take people for Birkenhead (Mr Field), whose speeches on this who were job-ready from the jobcentre, turn them around matter I have read for many years. very quickly, get them a job and take the money from The issue of benefit dependency was one of the whichever Government were in power, either Labour or triggers that drew me back into politics 10 or 11 years Conservative. The premium for those providers was so ago. That is why, once I was elected, I became a member little that they put people who were a long way from the of the Work and Pensions Committee. I have been very job market in a corner and did not bother with them. involved in its work ever since, along with the hon. That situation built up over a period of time. As we Member for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg). know, the Work programme is modelled in such a way We must remind ourselves of the figures that have that training providers stand to gain a considerable been talked about. There are more than 2 million children amount of money if they get long-term benefit recipients in the UK living in households in which nobody is in into work. I am keen on that. I want the directors of work. That figure is from 2005 or 2006, when the training providers and the people who work for them to economy was booming. I imagine that the figure is end up as wealthy men and women, because I know that much higher today, because of the recession that we if that happens, we will finally break the desperate cycle have been in since 2008. The Secretary of State reminded that has gone on for 30 or 40 years and third-generation us that there are more children in workless households benefit dependents will be getting jobs. Universal credit in the UK than across the rest of the EU, which is a is crucial to that. shocking statistic. Such figures are the reason why Will universal credit work? That is the $64,000 question. many Members from all parties feel so strongly about The Secretary of State is confident about the IT and this subject. Although there are anxieties about universal confident that the programme is on budget and on time. credit, which I will touch on in a minute, we all in our Like a lot of Members, I hope and pray that he is right, hearts hope and pray that it works. because I do not want to wait another few years for the Labour party to come up with a plan, perhaps one put Over a period of 30 or 40 years, not because of a together by the right hon. Member for Birkenhead. It conspiracy or through malice, but through society trying lost that opportunity 12 or 13 years ago. Frankly, I to do the right thing, a chronic situation has developed think that is a shame, but that is by the by. I am not in which for many of our neighbours, colleagues and confident that his ideas will ever come through into constituents, it simply does not make rational sense to Opposition policy, so universal credit has to work. I work. I spoke to a young woman on Saturday at my urge the Secretary of State and the Department to listen surgery. She had come to see me about a different issue, to some of our procedural concerns about monthly but we got on to this matter because she knows that I payments, council tax benefit and which primary earner feel strongly about it. She pointed out that she was will get a household’s money, but otherwise I support losing five or six quid a week by working. It would make universal credit wholeheartedly and look forward to its financial sense for her to go on to benefits. Luckily, she implementation. is the sort of person who would see that as the road to perdition, so she is sticking to her job, hoping that she 5.39 pm will earn more money in a year or two. I thought to Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): I am pleased to myself, “This is absolutely insane. How have we got speak in the debate and I applaud the many constructive here?” We all know that it has been down to a series of contributions that have been made. I hope I can do as actions over 30 or 40 years, but we are where we are, so well. I start with one principle that I believe is agreed how do we change things? throughout the Chamber: that any reform now or in the I am anxious that someone with such a reputation on future should be designed to enable people to get into the subject as the right hon. Member for Birkenhead work and to ensure that work pays. However, many feels so negative about universal credit. That makes me concerns have been raised about whether the Government’s nervous, because he has a lot more experience in this reforms will work or whether they will unravel rapidly area than I have. None the less, let us see what we have and spectacularly. 177 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform 178

I want to focus on the narrow subject of some of the unless the Minister can give a clear and categorical most vulnerable people who might be badly affected by assurance that the proposals include some form of the reforms, if the reforms are not right and delivered mitigation for those claimant groups, which include correctly. I want to ensure that they are protected so many tens of thousands of individuals. that I do not meet in homes in my constituency, or in I want to be broadly optimistic about the proposals my office, people who say that they have been badly let and the principles behind them, but I share the worries down by unintended consequences. As the Minister that hon. Members have expressed—the proposals could knows, such people will visit his office, and they will be unravel and there has been delay, and we do not know real people with real tragedies. whether the planning and implementation will be effective Baroness Tanni Grey-Thompson, who is far better and make them work. However, I want to ask the versed with the group I want to talk about than I am, Minister specifically about the claimant groups who are said: at or below the poverty line, who could be the most significantly impacted by the changes. Have they been “Cuts—such as those to support for most disabled children, taken into account and is proper mitigation in place? If and disabled adults living alone—are going to make the future not, will he think again? considerably bleaker for many of the most disadvantaged households in Britain.” I hope she is not right, but let me develop some of the 5.45 pm detail behind that direct criticism of the reforms under discussion, which are to be rolled out progressively. Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): I begin my contribution to this important debate with a letter I I welcome the fact that I am following the hon. received in 2007 from the ancient ward of Kingsholm in Member for Eastbourne (Stephen Lloyd). He has a my constituency, where the Domesday Book was great background in representing some of the concerns commissioned, and which is today home to Britain’s we are discussing, and I am sure he would want the finest rugby club. The letter was from a young mother Minister to respond to them. The Minister can do so in who wanted to return to work. She had been offered a his closing remarks, but I am happy for his officials to part-time job and had done some detailed calculations, write to me. which she shared with me, and which showed conclusively that she would be about 10% worse off in work than she Let us consider claimants who have children with was on benefits. She wrote: “The system appears to disabilities. Under the proposals, the lower rate that will have been designed to make sure that I should never be available to families with disabled children is, if I work again,” and added for good measure that, “the understand correctly, significantly lower than the current depressing thing is that this letter will make absolutely disabled child element of child tax credit. I understand no difference at all.” from Citizens Advice in my community, and others, that it has been estimated that the proposals will make My reply at the time was that the situation my constituent such families worse off by up to £30 per week. If so, I described was morally wrong. I said I hoped that if my guarantee that those families will wash up not only at Government were given the chance, we would act to citizens advice bureaux but in my constituency office, change things, and that one day I would be able to say and I need to know what to say to them, where they can to her, “We have made sure that work pays.” I still have turn and how we can help them. her letter, and I hope to have the chance to write to her in due course to say that our dream has come true. Another group is claimants who have disabilities. As The motion could not be further from that dream. hon. Members have regularly heard in their offices, Indeed, although the shadow Minister, the right hon. disability premiums have always been a major aspect of Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne), said the current means-tested support and recognise the in introducing the debate that we all want work to pay, many and complex additional costs faced by claimants it was not clear to me that his heart was really in it. It with disabilities from things such as dietary requirements, sounded as if he rather hoped the scheme that the extra heating for or adaptation of their homes, special Conservatives and Liberal Democrats have worked so aids, and so on. The disability premium is worth about hard on would end in tears, or, as he put it, that it would £58 per week, and the disability element of the working descend into chaos—an inferno of incompetence that tax credit about £54 a week. If claimants are to be he awaits with some relish. significantly disadvantaged, I seek the Minister’s assurance that the proposed package will mitigate that. We are led It was ironic to hear a call from the right hon. to understand that around 500,000 fewer people will Gentleman to “dial up the competence”. After all, his qualify for the new support when the disability living Government designed the most complex benefits system allowance is replaced by the personal independence in the world, and he left office apologising that there payment. Once again, those people will turn up in the was no money left. He also reverted to form in calling advice surgeries of MPs around the UK. for yet another play on the bankers’ bonus as a solution to the problem. I have said before in the House that he is One final aspect concerns joint claimants who have an outstanding salesman of the absolutely unsellable limited capabilities. Under universal credit, couples who policy of his party’s refusal to back any cap on benefits. have limited capability at work, or in getting ready for This time, however, he has been pushed forward as a work, will receive only one element that recognises salesman without a policy. He simply attempted to restricted functions. Two individuals in a household rubbish and decry arguably the most important policy might have much greater expenditure, but that is not that the Conservative and Liberal Democrat coalition is reflected in the payment, which covers only one individual. proposing, which, sadly, his party was unable to construct Once again, those people will be coming to my surgery, during its 13 years in office. 179 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform 180

[Richard Graham] recession made in Downing street. In order to recover our finances, we need a suitable plan for growth and If any hon. Member wishes for proof of that, I can jobs in the economy.Twenty one people in my constituency offer a conversation that I had more than two years ago apply for each job vacancy, and the only way out is with with Lord Freud, the Minister with responsibility for a plan B. It is no good denying that. It will not do welfare reform. I asked him: “What is the difference anybody any good to deny that we are in times of between the work you did as an adviser to the previous extreme austerity. Government and the work you do as a Minister?” He This is a timely debate, because although millions of said, simply, “The most important difference is that people were in London yesterday celebrating the fantastic, whereas the previous Government talked about reform, first-class Olympics and Paralympics—the best ever this Government will deliver it.” seen—the picture out there for tens of thousands of The motion contains several main criticisms of the disabled, vulnerable, sick and unemployed people is work being done by my right hon. Friend the Secretary quite different. Many people fear for their future, and of State and his ministerial colleagues. The first is that rightly so, particularly given how welfare reform has universal credit is late and over-budget, but we have developed over the past two years and what will happen heard a convincing rebuttal of both accusations. For with the universal credit. Lots of people will lose out. example, the roll-out of the pathfinder starts next April My hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca- and more widely in October. Davies) mentioned disabled children. We have got disabled The second accusation is that there is widespread claimants. Carers are set to lose out, as, too, are joint unease surrounding the implementation of the £2 billion claimants with limited capabilities, young lone parent IT project. I asked about this when a member of the and large families. We have not got any facts or figures Work and Pensions Committee and since then I have on how much the universal credit will be per individual asked questions of the contractor and the Department, and how much the additional payments will be. The and I will go on doing so because there is no room for only figure we are sure of is the size of the benefit complacency.Again, though, the accusation of widespread cuts—£20 billion. Some Members might say, as they unease is a bit rich—or perhaps the Opposition have regularly do in the Chamber, “This is not about impacting realised that the situation with the £60 billion national on the less well-off in society but about simplifying the NHS IT project that went so disastrously wrong under benefit system and making it easier”, but I look at it the former Government should not be repeated. On differently: if we take £18 billion to £20 billion away that, I am absolutely with the right hon. Member for from welfare in the name of welfare reform, somebody Birmingham, Hodge Hill. We must ensure that the will lose out, and to stand up in the House and suggest project is successful, and I am sure that Ministers are otherwise is disingenuous. We must be careful not to listening carefully. start universal credit the same way we started welfare Thirdly, the motion accuses the Department of creating reform two years ago. We cannot have people worrying such a bad design that it reduces work incentives. It has about losing their benefits—about appealing for benefits been designed to do precisely the opposite. Above all, but being cast aside. If universal credit is introduced in the project is designed to provide strong incentives for the same way as Atos operates the work capability everybody to return to work. It is not poorly thought assessment, more people will become unemployed—booted out and there is no serious risk of it descending into on to the dole, some may say. chaos. It will affect 8 million households, lift 900,000 The universal credit will be introduced next year, and individuals out of poverty and reduce 30 complex benefits constituents of mine have received lots of letters and into something that even the humblest citizens advice e-mails about its implementation and underlying principle. bureau can understand and explain to the many constituents The Government hope for 80% take-up online, so people of ours who visit them. This is a vital project that we all who prefer face-to-face interaction will have to use the should back. The impact of its not succeeding would be internet, yet the 2009 digital report stated that 15 million too awful for us to consider. Universal credit is the right still did not use the internet. I accept that it might be thing. It is a noble goal and deserves our support, and dated, being three years old, but I emphasise that many my constituents will back it strongly. In particular, the people still prefer not to use the internet. woman who wrote to me in 2007 deserves a reply. That means that the motion should be soundly defeated. Monthly payments, sanctions, the IT failure, joint payments and the transitional project have all been Several hon. Members rose— mentioned by hon. Members this afternoon, and I hope that the Secretary of State and his ministerial team will Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. look at them all. We have to treat poor people with To accommodate as many Members as possible still dignity. They are not asking for the earth and have wishing to speak, I am reducing the time limit to five never looked for luxury. They just want to live a life as minutes. I call Mr Ian Lavery. near as possible to what we do. They do not want merely to exist. 5.52 pm Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): There have been some thoughtful contributions this afternoon, but I must 5.57 pm wholeheartedly disagree with the comments about cross- Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): It is a pleasure to party agreement and how this is not about cuts. contribute to this debate. I refute the claim by the right Hon. Members can call me a party pooper, if they hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field), who is no wish, but I want to consider the reality facing many longer in his place, that there is a lack of interest among people in my constituency and constituencies up and Government Members. Indeed, I spent my summer down the country. Let us face it, we are in a double-dip recess taking an interest: I visited my local jobcentre to 181 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform 182 see how it was dealing with the proposed changes; the position. Visiting that store was a humbling experience. two Work programme providers serving my constituency The retention rate in the first 18 months was 94%—that because I wanted to see how they were getting on; and a is, 94% of the staff who had been long-term unemployed Tesco regeneration partnership store in Liverpool, which were still in position. The pride that those people took is an example of what can be done when large corporations in their jobs was something to behold, so when I hear work with the jobcentre system to get the long-term people in this House saying, “Yes, the only jobs being unemployed into jobs. created in this economy are in shelf stacking,” I just feel One clear message that came out of those visits was ashamed. The people in that store in Toxteth took pride that the welfare changes were welcomed by jobcentre in the fact that they were earning a salary, taking staff, who saw them as an opportunity to help people income home to their families and standing proud, back into work, and by the Work programme providers, knowing that they were making a difference. who understood the long-term issue at stake. The issue However, there was one message that well and truly is not about getting people into six-month placements came out of that meeting. So many were saying, “I’m or getting them off the register for six months and then currently working 16 hours,”—or, “I’m currently working back on to it but about working with the unemployed to 24 hours”—“but if I go over that, I’ll be worse off.” If ensure their long-term capacity to work. nothing else, the message from the universal credit to I represent a seaside resort in Llandudno, north them must be: “Work 30 hours; work 40 hours—you Wales, which has seen a huge influx of people from will be better off.” eastern Europe to work in our hotels. They are wonderfully hard-working and welcome because of the level of 6.2 pm service they offer. Nevertheless, it was of huge concern Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): It is a that although people were unemployed in my constituency, great pleasure to contribute to this debate. Of course I several hundred people from elsewhere in Europe were welcome the universal credit to the extent that it may willing to work in the positions available. When I visited encourage people to work at all. However, there is a the Work programme providers serving my constituency, danger that the fact that it has been designed to provide therefore, it was a pleasure to see a white board on the incentives to many people to work only in short-hours wall listing 28 jobs filled that August, several of which jobs will mean that more people will choose to work in had been in local hotels and restaurants, because those short-hours jobs. Although those jobs can be a valuable businesses were engaging with the Work programme. stepping stone into further employment, particularly One message that came out clearly from those visits for those with caring responsibilities, we know that long was that the Work programme providers were still having periods spent trapped in mini-jobs can damage individuals’ to sit down with people who wanted to take on a job future earning prospects. Mini-jobs are often more badly and work out whether they would be better or worse off. paid and more insecure than established jobs with more I can tell the House that the Work programme providers hours, yet those are exactly the trends that we do not and the clients I met were looking forward to the time want if we are to tackle in-work poverty. when they would know for a fact that if they took a job, It is clear that the Government are worried about that they would be better off. aspect of the design of universal credit, because they The right hon. Member for Birkenhead made the are planning to introduce into our benefits system—for strong point that if a 50p tax rate is problematic when it the first time, I think—a measure of in-work conditionality, comes to incentives to work, then surely a 65p withdrawal to push people working in mini-jobs into working more rate is problematic too. I agree: a 65p withdrawal rate is hours or perhaps getting a better-paid job. We currently problematic. It is an issue that we should expect the have very little information on how in-work conditionality poorest in society to pay a 65% marginal tax rate, yet we will work. We have not been told what additional resources acknowledge that a 50% rate was unacceptable. However, will be available to Jobcentre Plus to implement it, who we have to put the issue in context. The fact is that it will apply to or what additional training might be we had—indeed, we still have—500,000 people facing given to advisers to cope with the different challenge of withdrawal rates of 85% to 90%. If we can slowly move dealing with people who are already in work. What we to a position where, regardless of the situation, people do know—from the DWP’s own research—is that in-work are better off when they work, we should not be carping conditionality is one of the least popular aspects of about that. Hon. Members can of course make the what the Government are proposing when it is raised in arguments for a withdrawal rate of less than 65%—in the DWP’s research. I therefore invite the Minister to due course I would support that—but this Government say a little more about in-work conditionality. It has are taking difficult decisions at a difficult point in the been completely airbrushed out of the debate so far, but economic cycle, in trying to change a system that has it will be extremely important to a substantial number failed far too many of our fellow citizens. To argue that of people who begin in low-hours, low-paid work. the change does not go far enough, when Labour sat on I also want to reiterate the points made by my right its hands for 13 years, is completely unacceptable. hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill The key point is this. I went to Liverpool and visited (Mr Byrne) and my hon. Friend the Member for Stalybridge that Tesco store in Toxteth, which has the most wonderful and Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds), as well as others, about views of the constituency of Birkenhead and north how the logic of the system will push some people to Wales. As a Conservative MP from Wales, I was slightly reduce their hours of work, not increase them. My right concerned about meeting Scousers who might not be hon. Friend mentioned the interaction with the rise in the most welcoming of a Conservative politician. Under the personal tax threshold which, as the charity Gingerbread a partnership agreement with Jobcentre Plus, half the has shown, means that a £1,000 increase in the personal staff at the store had to have been unemployed for more tax allowance will give £200 a year to every basic rate than a year before being recruited and moving into a taxpayer, except those on universal credit, who will gain 183 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform 184

[Kate Green] interests. To move to a system that is simple and straightforward must therefore be an advantage, and it only £70. Similarly, as we know, the new system will has, I think, broad support across this House. disincentivise second earners in couples, the majority of Then there is the issue of the reduction rate—the rate whom will be women. The Institute for Fiscal Studies at which people lose money from benefits when they has shown that a second earner who is entitled to move into work. I have spoken before in this House universal credit when out of work will initially lose 65% about the Laffer curve. It is often pooh-poohed by of every pound earned when they move into work, Opposition Members, although I see—as they themselves rather than 41%, as they do under the current, tax say—that there is an irony in that we quote it most often credits system. Indeed, the DWP’s own modelling shows in favour of high-rate taxpayers and they quote it most that 900,000 potential second earners will face lower often in favour of people on benefits. However, in my incentives to work under the new policy. view the Laffer curve applies equally to both. People I am concerned about the payment mechanism, with work because they get money out of it. It was Dr Johnson payments typically going to one member of a household. who said that nobody but a blockhead writes, except for The hon. Member for Oxford West and Abingdon money. It is not just writing that is done just for money; (Nicola Blackwood) pointed out that there are particular it is most employment—with the exception of being a concerns where there is a risk of domestic violence or Member of Parliament, which I think most of us are so abuse. There is also a concern that money might not get privileged to do that we might even pay for the opportunity. through to children when the element of the benefit that The importance of that point is that the withdrawal is related to child care or child costs is intended for rate is going to be the absolute key. It is crucial that, at them. I invite the Minister to explain whether he thinks all times, being in work makes people better off than it is feasible for a woman—or man—experiencing abuse being unemployed, not only for their financial benefit in their relationship to ask the DWP for the benefit to but because dependency is bad for people and their be split or paid all to her, rather than to him. Surely that families. It is destructive to their lives. It leaves them will precipitate further abuse. I would also like to know without a focus, unable to get up in the morning or to whether the Department intends to move towards allowing do anything. It can also lead to depression. We want a the benefit to be paid partly to each member of the society in which people want to be, and are encouraged household and what cost assessment has been made of to be, in the work force, and in which dependency is an taking on board requests to pay the benefit in a different option that is limited to those for whom nothing can be way. Would it not be simpler to return to the model, done. We need to become a society in which dependency which has been tried and tested—as this Minister knows is rejected. particularly well—of paying benefits for children to the The principles behind the reforms are fantastic, and main carer and benefits for housing to the person with they are worthy of widespread support. I agree with my the rental obligation? hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) Finally, let me ask some quick questions about refuges. that we would like the withdrawal rate to be reduced I welcome the assurances given today. However, as from 65%, but 65% is still a lot better than some of the people are in refuges for only two or three days, because very high rates that exist, which is extremely good news. they are dealing with an emergency, can the Minister In respect of the practicalities of the reforms, my admiration confirm that rent will be paid directly to the landlord in for the Secretary of State is unbounded. I have never those circumstances? Can he confirm that where people before seen a Minister or an Opposition spokesman in are in receipt of dual benefits—for their own home and the House being so open to suggestions, thoughts and the time in the refuge—they will not be hit by the questions about what they were doing, or being so benefits cap? Can he also confirm that housing costs careful about the way in which their proposals were that are currently met by the benefits system will continue being implemented. to be met in full? In fact, will the Department publish an equality impact assessment of the proposals? Regrettably, It was notable at questions yesterday that, in response we have so far seen no such thing. to a point about refuges raised by the hon. Member for Manchester Central (Tony Lloyd), the Secretary of State said: 6.7 pm “If he has any concerns that he thinks we might not have dealt Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): It is with, my door is open for him to come and talk to me.”—[Official a great pleasure to support the Secretary of State today. Report, 10 September 2012; Vol. 550, c. 14.] He is one of the most serious-minded members of Her That is a Conservative being open to a socialist Member Majesty’s Government, and he has put forward a proposal of Parliament. Politics normally involves a Minister where there is amazingly little disagreement over the being defensive and saying, “I’ve got it right. You know principle of what is being done. Indeed, the motion is I’ve got it right, and my troops will vote for me because not about the principle; it is about some of the practicalities. the Whips have arranged that in advance.” It has been However, it is worth concentrating on what the principles wonderfully refreshing to hear the Secretary of State go underlying the universal credit are. through all the points today. Has anyone ever seen a The first principle must be simplification. All of us Secretary of State take more interventions than he did know from our surgeries that the people who come in to in his speech? In each case, if he did not have an see us—who are some of the most vulnerable in society—are immediate answer, he said that he would be willing to confused and bewildered by the range of benefits that may listen and to consider the matter, to ensure that we got or may not be available to them, the interaction between this right. Pilots are being carried out, and the scheme is one and another, and the way they can become worse being implemented carefully and cautiously. off by doing sensible things, which therefore encourages them to do things that are not in their long-term best Jackie Doyle-Price: Will my hon. Friend give way? 185 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform 186

Jacob Rees-Mogg: It would be an honour. me that it agreed to take part in the scheme so that it could highlight any glitches in the new system that a Jackie Doyle-Price: Does my hon. Friend agree that borough like that might encounter, before the system the spirit in which the Secretary of State is approaching was rolled out nationwide, so that the Government this issue stands in clear contrast to the approach of the would be able to iron them out in good time. Opposition, who have tabled this mealy-mouthed, negative I want to turn briefly to some of the specific concerns. motion? They are willing the reforms to fail, but we There is general consensus on the ethos that work should all want them to succeed if we really want to should pay, but there are real worries that such dramatic make work pay. changes could disadvantage families and that, instead, work—or at least low-paid work—would not pay. On Jacob Rees-Mogg: I am very sympathetic to what my the proposal for monthly payments, the Minister will hon. Friend says. This is something of a puzzle to me, know that, at present, a significant amount of housing because the Labour Front-Bench spokesmen on this benefit is paid directly to landlords, and in particular to subject are among the most civilised members of the registered social landlords. The Department for Work Opposition, and it seems uncharacteristic of them to and Pensions has announced eight local authority table such a motion—[HON.MEMBERS: “Hear, hear!”] I demonstrator pilots, and payments direct to tenants in felt sure that they would be delighted to be flattered by social housing have been accelerated in those pilot areas me, of all people. What I have said about them is true, from June this year. However, none of the pilots is in however; it is recognised by those on my own Front Greater Manchester. I do not know why; Oldham and Bench. Wigan were certainly long-listed. The Government should However, the motion before us is extremely overstated. have a spread of pilots, in order to ascertain the impact It uses the language of chaos and disaster, as did the that the changes could have in different types of right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill communities. That is the first worry. (Mr Byrne), and calls on the Government “urgently to set out”plans. In contrast, the Secretary of State answered Secondly, as we have heard, universal credit is to be every question that was put to him. He was willing to paid one month in advance, to mirror a monthly salary listen, and he is doing something that, in principle, if the claimant gains employment. This is a real concern those on both sides of the House agree with. for private landlords and registered social landlords, not least because they expect rent arrears to increase. People might need more budgeting advice and assistance Mark Durkan: I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving than is currently available. What assurances can the way during his praise of the Secretary of State. Last Minister give to me, to landlords and to my council that week, the Secretary of State refused to accept a reasonable arrears will not increase in that way? What joined-up job offer and incurred no sanction. If that is okay for thinking has taken place between the DWP and the him, why is it not okay for others? Department for Communities and Local Government to ensure that it does not happen? Ministers must also Jacob Rees-Mogg: That was a most brilliantly phrased understand that residents, especially those under real intervention. In turning down the opportunity to be pressure, will be seeking support from local advisory Lord High Chancellor—one of the most ancient posts services, such as Citizens Advice and Welfare Rights, at in the land, and one that most people would be honoured a time when those services are being reduced as a result to hold—the Secretary of State showed his commitment of spending cuts. That, too, is a real worry. to ensuring that the reforms will work. In turning down a promotion, he showed his nobility. Having listened to A further worry has arisen over the introduction of his speech in the debate today, I wonder whether there online application forms. We have already heard that ought to be an amendment to “Erskine May”, so that between 5% and 10% of residents will require additional when an argument has been comprehensively won by a support with such applications. That is particularly Minister at the Dispatch Box, the debate could simply worrying in an area such as mine, where there is a end, to a round of applause and cheering, with no digital divide. A significant proportion of the community further need for discussion. that I represent cannot easily access the internet and would need extra support to make a claim. Furthermore, this change comes at a time when publicly accessible 6.14 pm community IT facilities are being removed as a result of Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): It is a Government cuts. pleasure to contribute to this important debate. The My final worry relates to the combined impact of notion of making work pay should be supported by other welfare changes, particularly when a transfer of everyone in the House, but there are worrying signs in responsibility to local authorities is involved. Local the Government’s proposals and unless they heed them, council tax support schemes are an example of that. I fear that they will fail in their ambitions. Indeed, Tameside council tells me that there is still no One of the two local authorities that cover my information from the DWP about how the so-called constituency—Tameside metropolitan borough council— localisation of council tax benefit will be co-ordinated has been selected, along with Oldham and Wigan councils, with the introduction of universal credit, particularly in to be in the Greater Manchester pathfinder area. The relation to the sharing of data. It is potentially the same Secretary of State mentioned the pathfinder areas in his residents who will be targeted by the reductions arising speech. We are told that the aim of the pathfinders is to from the changes to housing benefit, to council tax build confidence in the components of universal credit benefit and to the under-occupancy rules. It worries me and to learn lessons for the larger-scale implementation that those same people are facing a squeeze on their tax of the scheme later in the year. Tameside council tells credits. 187 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform 188

[Andrew Gwynne] we need to work harder as a society to create products that work for people who are vulnerable or less financially That brings me neatly to where I started. Unless the skilled and so forth. Government get a real grip on these issues, the new system will fail, particularly in constituencies such as I do not believe the point has been made this afternoon Denton and Reddish where, sadly, the damage could be that there is a real opportunity for a degree of rehabilitation lasting. of the banking sector. I represent an area in Battersea where the Clapham sect was active between 1790 and 6.19 pm 1830. Its members included Wilberforce and others who were great pioneers of social reform. Not every Member Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con): It is a pleasure to may know that nearly all the Clapham sect were from contribute to the debate. Needless to say, I do not share banking families. I was reminded of this fact by the much of the scepticism of so many Opposition Members, vicar of St Luke’s church in my constituency this week. who I fear are, in some cases, substituting extended She is piloting a meeting to discuss how the world of concern about the detail, however right and proper, as a finance can do more to help the poor and the vulnerable proxy for opposing the reform. Some of the support we in today’s society, building on the work of the Clapham have seen even for the principle of these reforms is half sect. hearted at best. Given what we have heard in one or two speeches, one would have thought that this Government I think there is a real opportunity here for the banking inherited some sort of welfare utopia in which all was sector to use some genuine creativity and to step into working smoothly, nothing needed amending and only the breach and look at ways of providing practical the uprating of benefits was necessary each year. assistance, putting something back into society in the form of serving vulnerable people who, to date, have The situation we inherited was a complete shambles, largely not been catered for by proper banking products which is apparent in a constituency such as mine. We or the right support from that sector. It should not be are lucky in that many jobs have been created over the all about the voluntary sector; there is an opportunity past decade in London, yet young people in my constituency for people involved in banks to be true to some of the have said to my face, “It isn’t worth getting a job; I’m heritage of the social reformers who have gone before better off sitting at home, playing on the internet and them. I am thinking about jam jar accounts and individual living on benefits”. If that is the case, we have to do banking, which I know the Department is looking at, as something about it. The problem I see is an inter- they could prove to be important and life changing for generational one. many vulnerable citizens. I have listened to many of the detailed speeches given by the hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate My main point is that the Labour party has got itself Green) in Public Bill Committee and elsewhere, and I on the wrong side of this debate. I believe in the welfare know she makes many good points about the detail that state, which is one of this country’s most important and have to be addressed, but this is also about committing civilised achievements, but if we do not make it work, ourselves to a principle, quite apart from the rising costs not just for the people in it but for society as a whole, of the whole system. I have seen intelligent women in and if we do not restore confidence in it, we fatally my constituency being infantilised and reduced to a undermine something that represents, as I say, such an position in which they do not even back themselves to important and civilising aspect of this country. manage their own finances monthly, and I have seen people with qualifications and degrees who have been Before I was an MP, when I was candidate, I received out of work for a very long time. an e-mail that was rather similar to the letter my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) Kate Green rose— told us he received. My e-mail was from a young woman who was a trainee nurse and lived on one of the tougher Jane Ellison: I shall take just this one intervention, as estates in my constituency. She was a single mum bringing we are running out of time. up two children, and she wanted to work. Every morning, however, as she walked down the walkway on her estate, Kate Green: No one is pretending that the previous she was mocked, as people shouted at her through the benefit system was perfect, but we should equally windows of other flats. They said she was a fool to go to acknowledge that for the overwhelming majority of work and asked why she was doing it. It is absolutely people in it, work did pay more than being on benefits. appalling that we have created a situation in which One instance of how the system was effective in helping someone like that, trying to do the right thing for her to support that is the fact that lone parent employment— family, is mocked by the people around her. mostly female employment—rose from 44% in the mid- Unless the Labour party puts itself on the right side 1990s to approaching 60% today. of this debate and understands that we create and maintain confidence in the welfare state as an important Jane Ellison: That intervention misses one essential aspect of our country by being on the side of that nurse point—that there were too many in the system altogether. who wanted to go to work and by ensuring that the We cannot go on as we are. system always works for her, it will find itself left behind Concerns have been expressed about monthly budgeting in this debate. I applaud the Government for what they and other issues, and it is right to look at them. One are trying to do. There are risks, and the Secretary of particular point I want to make in my limited time is State has been open about them today—of course there about what I hope will be a real engine for creativity in are risks in major reform—but it is about meeting those respect of new products to help people. We cannot say risks head on and making the reform work, not about that it is only a matter of providing advice services; naysaying it before it has even started. 189 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform 190

6.25 pm That has certainly been borne out by my own constituency experience. A severely autistic claimant was sanctioned Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab): Universal credit for not attending to sign on, when his appointment had has been called a “welfare revolution”—the most ambitious, been changed three times in three weeks and the last fundamental and radical change to the welfare system appointment letter was received after the date of the since it began. As with any language when revolution is appointment. mentioned, people are worried and concerned; and when they are worried and concerned about their future I have a number of concerns about the social and income and their benefits and want advice, where do human cost—and also the cost to the public purse—of they go? To the advice agencies—to the local citizens failing to ensure that there is timely access to expert advice bureaux and the law centres, which have helped advice. Introducing a revolutionary new system at precisely people in troubled times for more than 70 years. the time when the advice services report that they are What these worried and concerned individuals might facing a “perfect storm” of funding cuts is unfair to not realise, however, is that the introduction of universal claimants, will not help those who administer the system, credit is happening at precisely the same time as some of and will affect the most vulnerable. I urge the Government the most destabilising and threatening cuts to our advice to consider the role of advice provision in the pathfinder services are taking place. Welfare benefit cases are no areas, and to assess the need for and funding of that longer eligible for legal aid, leading to a loss of specialist advice in the roll-out. advisers. Many specialist advisers, who have often worked in the system for a long time, train the generalist advisers 6.30 pm who often give their services for nothing, and they support them by explaining the intricacies of any new Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): Let system. The specialist support unit has already gone me begin with a statement on which there should be and all its funding has been cut, so there is no one at the agreement throughout the House: a strong welfare state end of the phone to talk through the complexities and benefits all of us in society. anomalies or to provide the training. Many centres are A growing body of evidence, extending from the having to close their services due to the toxic combination International Monetary Fund to the Obama White of council cuts, legal aid cuts and other funding cuts. House, shows that if we want to lift the current trend I worked in a citizens advice bureau during the change rate of growth, we need a fairer distribution of wealth from supplementary benefit, so I know that people across our society. We need more people to participate come early and want their advice early. Advice agencies in the labour market, particularly the estimated 700,000 are already receiving a spike in inquiries. Even a modest to 1.4 million women who are missing from employment change means that the number of inquiries goes up in Britain in comparison with the rates in better-performing exponentially. Will the Minister set out the Government’s OECD countries. Our system of child care is less generous strategy on the role of independent advice provision? I and more expensive than those of many of our trading also gently remind him that a strategy without the partners in the European Union, and claims an ever money behind it remains simply a vain hope. It is no use larger share of take-home pay for many families. During relying on Jobcentre Plus and the Benefits Agency or the past 30 years the link between rising productivity presuming that people will go there for advice, as those and wages has gone and they have become decoupled, agencies are seen as an arm of government. People rely and that trend has accelerated over the last 10 years. on their neighbourhood advice centres and people want It is clear that there must be a wage-led recovery in an independent assessment of their benefit claim. The living standards, with a living wage in the areas of the emphasis on claiming online will also increase the number economy where it will work, and that companies must of people requiring advice because only 17% of people be made aware of the benefits to the whole economy of deal with their claims online, and 31% of the poorest in paying higher wages to their staff rather than increasing society never use the internet at all. their short-term profit-taking. However, the role of the I can remember that when the social fund was brought tax and benefits system will remain critical to a reduction in, people had to go to Jobcentre Plus, which had a free in poverty, because from 2005 onwards the modest phone for claims. Where in fact did they go, however? uplift in the living standards experienced by low to They went to citizens advice bureaux and the advice middle earners in Britain was exclusively due to the tax agencies, even though the free phone was available, credit system. Other countries with better early-years because people go to the agencies that they trust. education, which invested heavily in vocational education I am concerned about the change in payments, too. and skills, such as Denmark, and those with stronger What about the 20% of people who do not have access collective bargaining systems in the workplace, such as to a bank account? I remind Government Members the Netherlands, had even lower levels of pre-distribution that they voted down our amendment to the Financial poverty. Services Bill, which sought to make the banks provide In principle, simplifying the tax and in-work benefits socially responsible products for those who had been system by uniting them in a single integrated payment discriminated against. How will they be helped to open may have beneficial effects, but there is evidence that the an account and manage their money, particularly when government are failing to address potential weaknesses housing benefit will be paid to the claimant? Have the in several key areas. need for and availability of budgeting advice been First, the system becomes more complicated for the considered, particularly during the switch to monthly growing number of self-employed people, and depends payments? on access to the internet. In my constituency, where the The harsher sanctions regime is another concern, as poverty level is drastically above the national average, the DWP’s own research has shown that vulnerable more than eight in 10 people do not have access to the claimants have been more likely to be subject to sanctions. internet at home. 191 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform 192

[Mr William Bain] are wobbling, and, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field) pointed out, the public mood Secondly, the current design of universal credit appears and, indeed, the mood on the Conservative Back Benches to penalise lone parents. Gingerbread understands that is becoming much chillier in regard to this initiative. up to 4 million of them, including 1 million who are in The first big thing that went wrong was the decision work, will lose out under universal credit. Estimates that the credit should not be universal after all. Council suggest that 150,000 of the poorest single parents could tax benefit, one of the most widely claimed benefits, has lose up to £68 per week, which would push 250,000 been left out. So we now face the prospect of a “not children deeper into poverty. The situation appears quite universal credit”. My right hon. Friend the Member worse when we consider the increasing competition for for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham) rightly observed part-time work in a weak labour market. The rate of that that was not the fault of the Secretary of State, who under-employment among women aged between 16 and wanted council tax benefit to be included. The Secretary 24 has risen by nearly 5% in the last four years, and for of State for Communities and Local Government wanted women aged between 35 and 49 the figure is nearly 4%. it to be excluded, and unfortunately the Secretary of Thirdly, universal credit does not put right the harm State for Communities and Local Government won. It that the Government have already done in regard to is now becoming clear what a blunder that was. support for child care costs. According to Save the As I mentioned earlier in an intervention, Welwyn Children, 56% of mums say that the main issue preventing and Hatfield district council is consulting on a 40% taper them from working, or making them consider giving up rate for council tax benefit, on top of the 65% taper rate work, is the increase in child care costs. However, parents for universal credit. If the council proceeds with that on low incomes are already paying more than they used proposal, for every extra pound that people earn they to because of the 10% reduction in the child care tax will lose more than £1 of universal credit. That is credit. The Resolution Foundation found that last year precisely the kind of lunacy that universal credit was child care costs rose by 50% for some of those families. supposed to abolish. The idea was supposed to be that Fourthly, the much-trumpeted rise in the personal tax work should always pay. I think that that was supported allowance will be counteracted by universal credit, because by every Member who spoke today, and it was mentioned people on low incomes who receive the credit will no specifically by my hon. Friend the Member for West longer receive a reduction in their tax bills. A £1,000 Dunbartonshire (Gemma Doyle). However, thanks to increase in the personal tax allowance will give £200 per the success of the Secretary of State for Communities year to every basic rate taxpayer except those on universal and Local Government in winning a row with the credit, who will gain only £70. They will receive only a Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, it will not third as much from any increase in the personal tax now happen. Every council in the country will have its allowance as the rest of the population. own council tax benefit scheme and its own taper, so Fifthly, there is a risk that the withdrawal of “passported” people’s work incentives will depend on their postcode. benefits such as free school meals, and the lack of a So much, sadly, for simplicity. second-earner disregard in the design of the credit, will create new cliff edges in the benefits system. Mr Frank Field: Is my right hon. Friend not being Finally, those who take jobs after being unemployed too kind to Treasury Ministers? The moneys for the for more than six months will not receive an extra four rebates will be limited, and it will be up to local authorities weeks on benefits to smooth their transition. to meet existing need, let alone new need. The benefits bill is rising by £9 billion because of higher unemployment. I think it is clear that the Stephen Timms: My right hon. Friend is absolutely Government should be focusing on that, rather than right. The money is being cut by 10%, so councils must taking money away from— somehow come up with a scheme that will save 10% and will be introduced on a local basis. It will be chaotic. Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. Many councils are saying that they will not be able to The hon. Gentleman’s time is up. do it in time, and it will certainly mean that there will be no national taper that everyone can understand. 6.35 pm However, that is just the start of the problems. The project is not on schedule, despite what the Secretary of Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): This has been a State said earlier. According to paragraph 21 on page 37 thoughtful debate which has covered a lot of important of his White Paper of November 2010, between October ground. 2013 and April 2014 Let me begin by endorsing the concept of universal “All new claims for out-of-work support are treated as claims credit. It is a good idea to bring different benefits to Universal Credit. No new Jobseeker’s Allowance, Employment together. The last Government looked forward to a and Support Allowance, Income Support and Housing Benefit single working-age benefit, and the present Government claims will be accepted.”” are right to take that idea forward. It ought to make it I believe that that is what my right hon. Friend the possible to simplify the system, strengthen work incentives, Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey) was and make those incentives clearer. It is in the task of told. It is absolutely clear, but it is no longer true. A translating those noble aspirations—which every Member newsletter appeared on the Department for Work and in the Chamber has shared this afternoon—into reality Pensions website over the summer announcing that, in that Ministers are struggling so badly. The Treasury is fact, that timetable will apply in only one Jobcentre Plus worried; the Prime Minister is worried, as we discovered district per region. In all the other districts, the change from the reshuffle last week; and, as we have heard in will take place some time after October 2013 and by the debate, people in the system are worried. The wheels summer 2014. The timetable has slipped; it has been 193 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform 194 delayed from what was stated in the White Paper—I am explained the reason why. As my hon. Friend the Member delighted that the Secretary of State is back in his place. for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green) pointed out, On the budget, to the end of the last financial year the second earners in a couple face sharply worse work project was due to spend £400 million. In fact, it spent incentives than in the current system. We are going back £500 million. So it is already over budget, too. to an outdated male breadwinner model, where the I welcome what the Secretary of State said about second person in the couple is not expected to work. online claims: he told us that the Department expects As my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North that at the beginning only about half of claims will be East (Mr Bain) pointed out, incentives for self-employment submitted online. That is a very significant change from are terrible, too. Tax credits have encouraged self- what has been said until now in respect of the digital-by- employment, but, under universal credit, the DWP will default proposal. It would be helpful to know what will assume after the first year that people are earning at happen to the 50% who do not apply online. How will least the minimum wage for every single hour they are things work for them? When people have problems, who working in self-employment. is going to help them? As my hon. Friends the Members for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne) and for Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): Does my right hon. Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) rightly pointed out, the Friend share my concern that the Federation of Small introduction of universal credit will coincide with a Businesses is saying that this will be a disincentive to drastic reduction in the availability of advice, just when people to get up off their backsides and start their own people are supposed to be grappling with these new businesses and get going? That suggests that something processes. is fundamentally wrong. What about people’s documents? At the moment, people applying for housing benefit present their documents Stephen Timms: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, to the local authority. Where will they present them in and that is because of the design that has been chosen. future? Will people start turning up at jobcentres with In July, the chair of the Low Incomes Tax Reform their documents or will they be expected to post them Group called for a rethink. He said: somewhere—or will we no longer have the fraud checks that are currently built into the system? “In many cases the income of self-employed earners will fall sharply making it, in some cases, uneconomic for them to continue This is supposed to be all about work incentives, but to work.” large numbers of people will find that their work incentives That is the opposite of what everybody in this debate are worse. The Government apparently plan a simple has said universal credit is supposed to do, but that income cut-off for free school meals. If people earn less appears to be where we are heading. It is, I am afraid, a than X, their children will be entitled to free school mess. meals, but if they earn more than X, they will not. That is a disastrous new cliff edge—far worse than anything As you know, Madam Deputy Speaker, a great deal in the current system. It means that someone with three of care was taken over the design of tax credits to children who earns less than X will suddenly have to ensure that mothers receive cash support for their children. start paying out over £3,000 in school meal charges per All those safeguards are deliberately being removed year if their income increases above X by just a pound from universal credit, which will cause serious problems. or two. That is a massive disincentive to people to I very much welcome what the Secretary of State said increase their income. yesterday about refuges. As we know, Refuge has been We have been asking how Ministers are going to saying that it will have to shut all its domestic violence tackle this issue since March last year. We asked the shelters. I am pleased that my hon. Friend the Member Secretary of State when he would make up his mind for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) was able to secure a when he gave evidence to the Welfare Reform Bill pledge from the new Home Office Minister, the hon. Committee. He said that Member for Taunton Deane (Mr Browne), that he will “during the Committee stage we should be in a much stronger lobby DWP Ministers on that point, but how are the position to make it much clearer how we will do that.”––[Official costs of other kinds of supported housing to be met? Report, Welfare Reform Public Bill Committee, 24 March 2011; The Government concluded a consultation on that in c. 155, Q299.] October last year. Another year has passed, and nothing Some 18 months have now passed, and today the Secretary definite has been announced, and in one more year this of State told us he is talking to various people about it. is all supposed to be up and running. All this is supposed to be in place within 12 months As has been said, we do not know anything about from now and Ministers still cannot tell us what they how in-work conditionality will operate. I have not even will do, but it does appear that that very damaging mentioned Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs’ real-time feature will be part of the system. information system for pay-as-you-earn. That is supposed I have asked about the publication of the business to start from next April. Every company in the land is case. I believe that Ministers will not publish it because due to start reporting PAYE to HMRC not, as now, it projects that there will be no increase at all in the total once a year after the end of the financial year, but every number of hours worked as a result of the introduction single month. The Government say it will all happen of universal credit. In other words, the whole basis on automatically through everybody’s computerised payroll which this project is being taken forward is flawed. That systems, but what about small firms that do not have a is partly because of the situation for second earners, computerised system? The Low Incomes Tax Reform which has been mentioned. My right hon. Friend the Group says: Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Dame Joan Ruddock) “Businesses will have to draw up two sets of accounts—one for asked the Secretary of State what would happen to HMRC, the other for DWP—and the latter will have to be done hours worked. He did not answer, and I think I have just monthly, thereby massively increasing bureaucratic burdens.” 195 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform 196

[Stephen Timms] May I make things simpler? I ask the Minister: will these changes in the business case result in an increase This is a mess. It has not been properly worked in hours worked? through. Key decisions have not yet been made. It is no wonder the Treasury and No. 10 are so worried. The Steve Webb: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for House should be too, and should support our motion. bringing me to the issue of work incentives. It was central to this debate, so let me address the point directly. Two separate work incentives have been muddled 6.48 pm together in this debate, including, I regret, by the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field). The first is the The Minister of State, Department for Work and incentive to take a job and the second is the incentive Pensions (Steve Webb): Almost 20 Members took part for those in work to work more hours. My right hon. in the debate, and we are grateful to all of them. The Friend the Secretary of State, in introducing this debate, high point was when my hon. Friend the Member for identified the fact that universal credit significantly North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) suggested that improves the incentive to take a job. That is fundamental the contribution of my right hon. Friend the Secretary in order to move from a situation where, as we have of State had been so definitive that we should have a heard, millions of people are in workless households parliamentary procedure under which the debate simply where nobody is working. Of course the incentives for ceases and applause follows. the second earner are important, but those for the first We have heard some powerful contributions. I was earner are even more important. We make no apology particularly struck by what Members had to say about for prioritising them; we want far more households to the attitudes to work that they had encountered and the have someone in work, which is why we have structured experiences of some of their constituents, as well as this as we have. We are therefore putting £2.5 billion about the barriers to work. My hon. Friend the Member extra per year, at a time when we are having to save on for Gloucester (Richard Graham) mentioned a letter he welfare, into in-work benefits, thereby improving the received before being elected to the House from someone return to work. It must be the case that if we are who said she was demoralised by the fact that it did not spending more on in-work benefits, we are improving pay to work. My hon. Friend said he came to this the incentive to work. House wanting to do something about that, and he can be proud to be a part of a coalition that is doing Mr Frank Field: Either the hon. Gentleman misrepresents something about it. My hon. Friend the Member for me or I did not make myself clear. I said that, crudely, Battersea (Jane Ellison) mentioned the experience of a we are talking about three groups. The first is those who nurse who was heckled on her way to work for being are unemployed and desperate to get back to work. The stupid for going to work at all, because why would she idea about incentives does not occur to them, as work is bother? We have to end that situation. Although Opposition part of their DNA. We do not need to have reforms for Front Benchers say they think work should always pay, them; we need jobs for them. The second group is those they failed to deliver that when in office. who regard their benefit as a pension, and no marginal We must not lose sight of the big picture of this increase in income is going to get them back to work. reform. We are bringing together separate strands into a The third group is those in work who are deciding single integrated system so that people do not have to whether they will work longer, whether they will work go for their housing benefit to the council, for their harder and whether they will get new jobs. Will a jobseeker’s allowance to the DWP, and for their tax scheme that puts their marginal tax rate up, as this one credits to HMRC. That will be good for tackling poverty, does for many people, actually be a work inducement? as it will lift many families and children out of poverty. It will also be good for tackling benefit take-up, because Steve Webb: Let me deal with that point directly. instead of having to claim several separate benefits, Under the current system, people who are below the tax people will make a single claim. The suggestion that and national insurance threshold and get tax credits somehow the previous tax credits system was used as a and housing benefit lose 79p in the pound—that will model is absolutely extraordinary. fall to 65p. Under the current system, people who are above the tax and NI threshold and get tax credits and Someone said, “We all remember how terrible it was housing benefit lose 91p in the pound—that will fall to when people had their tax credits overpaid or under-claimed, 76p. Under the new system, there will be almost no one or underpaid and claimed back.” That will come to an who loses more than 80p in the pound, compared with end because people will get the money when they need 500,000 people who do so now. What is not to like it. Under the real-time information, when their wage about that? This is good news for work incentives. goes down, their tax credits—now their universal credit— will increase. They will not have to wait three years for a Stephen Timms: What is the Department’s assessment reassessment to claw back an underpayment; it will of the effect of the introduction of universal credit on happen when they need the money. That is the way to the number of hours worked in the UK economy? tackle poverty. Steve Webb: As the right hon. Gentleman well understands, Huw Irranca-Davies: The Government have justified the impact on every individual will be different, so we their refusal to reveal the business case and, following have not used a specific figure for the number of hours an earlier intervention by my right hon. Friend the worked. However, what I have demonstrated is that the Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Dame Joan Ruddock), people who face the biggest barriers to working more have declined to answer how many additional hours hours will see cuts in their marginal rates and the people of work will be generated as a result of these changes. who face the biggest barriers to working at all will get 197 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform 198 more return for working. So this is good news for work The right hon. Member for Birkenhead, in another incentives. The right hon. Member for Birkenhead referred bizarre, overstated allegation, said that there has been a to the people facing an increase in their marginal rate, mass exodus of senior civil servants on the programme. but that increase is by four percentage points, from a That is completely untrue. The senior responsible officer, median of 41 to 45. That is the trade-off. We give people Terry Moran, whom he will know from years gone by, an incentive to take work and we tackle the most severe has held that role since November 2010. The programme marginal rates, while some people face a four percentage director has been in place since August 2011. At HMRC, point increase. That seems to me to be a good trade-off. the senior responsible officer for the real-time information Quite properly, a lot of hon. Members raised the service has retired—we still allow people to retire, even issue of internet access. We want to make it absolutely under our policies—but has been replaced by someone clear that the proposition is digital by default, so if we from the DWP. So the suggestion that people are just can get people in on the internet and online, we will do walking out the door is nonsense and is scaremongering. so. However, as the Secretary of State said at the start, we fully recognise that not everybody is online and not Naomi Long rose— everybody will be, so the core planning for the universal Steve Webb: I have only got two minutes, so I had credit contains provision for people who will not be better not give way. online. We were asked about the position on domestic violence, Some of the figures we have heard grossly distort the an important issue raised by my hon. Friend the Member extent to which people of working age in the benefit for Oxford West and Abingdon (Nicola Blackwood). It population are online these days. The evidence suggests is an important issue in respect of provision for splitting that 74% of claimants—not of the whole population, payments, for example. The Government are absolutely but of claimants—have home broadband and that 41% committed to protecting those who are subject to domestic of claimants do internet banking. To hear the speeches violence. For example, under universal credit victims of we have heard in this debate, one would not think that domestic violence will be exempt from things such as these people even knew what a computer looked like. It work search requirements for a three-month period. has been suggested in this debate that we have to avoid Although shared payments would normally be appropriate, patronising people on benefits, and that is absolutely because we know that most households budget together, right. We want to support people who are not online— clearly we will make alternative arrangements in exceptional jobcentres will play a part in that and we are talking to cases. We have therefore retained powers to split payments local authorities about it—but let us see this as an between members of a couple, for example, in cases of opportunity to get more people to be internet savvy, domestic violence. Details of those exemptions will be online and more employable. Let us not condemn people; included in guidance. let us give them opportunities and training. We heard a large number of contributions and I The impact of this measure is very important, and cannot do justice to them all, but the key theme from the hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Government Members has been a unified view that we Green) asked about the equalities impact. We will publish must make work pay and that we should not listen to an updated equalities impact assessment with the final the naysayers. Frankly, it is always possible to get a regulations after the autumn statement. newspaper headline by saying “Big Government IT The hon. Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain) project bound not to work”, because if it does work gave some bizarre figures about the impact of this nobody will ever remember. That is always the way in reform on lone parents, and I do not know where he got which the Opposition conduct themselves, but we are in them from. Lone parents gain from universal credit: the business of making things happen. When my right 400,000 lone parents who rent will gain, as opposed to hon. Friend the Secretary of State explained how closely 200,000 who will have lower entitlement; there will be he monitors the programme, he was not exaggerating. twice as many gainers as losers in that category. This This project has probably had more hours of testing, reform will reduce child poverty, because we are spending evolution and making things work than any other with huge sums of additional money at a time when money which I have been associated. is tight. We are doing so because of our priority of The hon. Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) making work pay. mentioned the 1988 benefit changes, which were a “big We have heard discussion of the real-time information bang” change. Income support, supplementary benefit, system, the fact that people’s benefit will be based on family credit, the family income supplement and housing their current situation and the impact on business. This benefit were reformed all on a single day. This is a roll approach has been assessed as saving businesses £300 million out over four to five years and we will get it right by a year. Those figures are signed off not by us, but by the doing it gradually, testing it, having pathfinders and Regulatory Policy Committee, which is a business-led bringing in groups one step at a time. We all saw what organisation; they have been validated by business. happened under the previous Government to the tax Businesses are doing a lot of these calculations anyway, credit system when the changes were done in a “big with the software doing it for them in most cases, but bang”, but we will make this change gradually, get it the streamlining of the system will save businesses cost right and make work pay, so we should reject the overall. We are working closely with our colleagues at naysayers and reject the motion. Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs; there has been Question put. close working between the two departments. The The House proceeded to a Division. Department for Work and Pensions is represented in the governance of HMRC’s real-time information Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): I ask the programme at every level, and the DWP and HMRC Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the No have jointly presented to Parliament. Lobby. 199 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform 200

The House having divided: Ayes 230, Noes 297. Malhotra, Seema Roy, Mr Frank Division No. 62] [6.59 pm Mann, John Roy, Lindsay Marsden, Mr Gordon Ruddock, rh Dame Joan McCann, Mr Michael Sarwar, Anas AYES McCarthy, Kerry Seabeck, Alison Abbott, Ms Diane Eagle, Maria McClymont, Gregg Shannon, Jim Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Edwards, Jonathan McCrea, Dr William Sharma, Mr Virendra Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Efford, Clive McDonagh, Siobhain Sheerman, Mr Barry Alexander, Heidi Ellman, Mrs Louise McFadden, rh Mr Pat Sheridan, Jim Allen, Mr Graham Engel, Natascha McGovern, Alison Shuker, Gavin Anderson, Mr David Esterson, Bill McGovern, Jim Simpson, David Ashworth, Jonathan Evans, Chris McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Skinner, Mr Dennis Bailey, Mr Adrian Farrelly, Paul McKechin, Ann Slaughter, Mr Andy Bain, Mr William Field, rh Mr Frank McKenzie, Mr Iain Smith, rh Mr Andrew Balls, rh Ed Fitzpatrick, Jim McKinnell, Catherine Smith, Angela Banks, Gordon Flello, Robert Meale, Sir Alan Smith, Nick Barron, rh Mr Kevin Flint, rh Caroline Mearns, Ian Smith, Owen Beckett, rh Margaret Flynn, Paul Michael, rh Alun Spellar, rh Mr John Begg, Dame Anne Fovargue, Yvonne Miliband, rh Edward Straw, rh Mr Jack Benn, rh Hilary Francis, Dr Hywel Miller, Andrew Stuart, Ms Gisela Benton, Mr Joe Gardiner, Barry Mitchell, Austin Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Berger, Luciana Glass, Pat Morden, Jessica Tami, Mark Betts, Mr Clive Glindon, Mrs Mary Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Thomas, Mr Gareth Blears, rh Hazel Goggins, rh Paul Morris, Grahame M. Thornberry, Emily Blenkinsop, Tom Goodman, Helen (Easington) Timms, rh Stephen Blomfield, Paul Greatrex, Tom Mudie, Mr George Trickett, Jon Blunkett, rh Mr David Green, Kate Munn, Meg Turner, Karl Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Greenwood, Lilian Murphy, rh Paul Twigg, Derek Brennan, Kevin Griffith, Nia Murray, Ian Brown, Lyn Gwynne, Andrew Nandy, Lisa Twigg, Stephen Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Hain, rh Mr Peter Nash, Pamela Umunna, Mr Chuka Brown, Mr Russell Hamilton, Mr David O’Donnell, Fiona Vaz, rh Keith Bryant, Chris Hamilton, Fabian Onwurah, Chi Vaz, Valerie Burden, Richard Hanson, rh Mr David Osborne, Sandra Walley, Joan Burnham, rh Andy Harman, rh Ms Harriet Owen, Albert Watson, Mr Tom Campbell, Mr Alan Harris, Mr Tom Paisley, Ian Watts, Mr Dave Campbell, Mr Gregory Havard, Mr Dai Pearce, Teresa Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Campbell, Mr Ronnie Healey, rh John Phillipson, Bridget Whitehead, Dr Alan Caton, Martin Hendrick, Mark Pound, Stephen Williams, Hywel Chapman, Jenny Hermon, Lady Qureshi, Yasmin Williamson, Chris Clark, Katy Hillier, Meg Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Wilson, Phil Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hilling, Julie Reed, Mr Jamie Winnick, Mr David Clwyd, rh Ann Hodge, rh Margaret Reeves, Rachel Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Coaker, Vernon Hosie, Stewart Reynolds, Emma Wishart, Pete Coffey, Ann Howarth, rh Mr George Reynolds, Jonathan Wood, Mike Connarty, Michael Hunt, Tristram Riordan, Mrs Linda Wright, David Cooper, Rosie Irranca-Davies, Huw Ritchie, Ms Margaret Wright, Mr Iain Cooper, rh Yvette Jackson, Glenda Robertson, Angus Corbyn, Jeremy Jamieson, Cathy Robertson, John Tellers for the Ayes: Creagh, Mary Jarvis, Dan Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Nic Dakin and Creasy, Stella Johnson, rh Alan Rotheram, Steve Chris Ruane Cruddas, Jon Johnson, Diana Cryer, John Jones, Graham NOES Cunningham, Alex Jones, Susan Elan Cunningham, Mr Jim Jowell, rh Dame Tessa Adams, Nigel Bingham, Andrew Cunningham, Sir Tony Keeley, Barbara Afriyie, Adam Binley, Mr Brian Curran, Margaret Kendall, Liz Aldous, Peter Birtwistle, Gordon Danczuk, Simon Khan, rh Sadiq Alexander, rh Danny Blackman, Bob Darling, rh Mr Alistair Lammy, rh Mr David Andrew, Stuart Blackwood, Nicola David, Wayne Lavery, Ian Bacon, Mr Richard Blunt, Mr Crispin Davidson, Mr Ian Lazarowicz, Mark Baker, Steve Boles, Nick Davies, Geraint Leslie, Chris Baldry, Sir Tony Bone, Mr Peter De Piero, Gloria Lewis, Mr Ivan Baldwin, Harriett Bottomley, Sir Peter Denham, rh Mr John Lloyd, Tony Barclay, Stephen Bradley, Karen Dobson, rh Frank Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Baron, Mr John Brady, Mr Graham Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Long, Naomi Barwell, Gavin Brake, rh Tom Doran, Mr Frank Love, Mr Andrew Bebb, Guto Bray, Angie Dowd, Jim Lucas, Caroline Beith, rh Sir Alan Brazier, Mr Julian Doyle, Gemma Lucas, Ian Bellingham, Mr Henry Bridgen, Andrew Dromey, Jack MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Benyon, Richard Brine, Steve Dugher, Michael Mactaggart, Fiona Beresford, Sir Paul Brooke, Annette Durkan, Mark Mahmood, Shabana Berry, Jake Browne, Mr Jeremy 201 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Universal Credit and Welfare Reform 202

Bruce, Fiona Gray, Mr James Loughton, Tim Selous, Andrew Buckland, Mr Robert Grayling, rh Chris Luff, Peter Shapps, rh Grant Burley, Mr Aidan Greening, rh Justine Lumley, Karen Sharma, Alok Burns, rh Mr Simon Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Macleod, Mary Shelbrooke, Alec Burstow, Paul Griffiths, Andrew Main, Mrs Anne Simmonds, Mark Burt, Alistair Gummer, Ben Maude, rh Mr Francis Skidmore, Chris Burt, Lorely Gyimah, Mr Sam Maynard, Paul Smith, Miss Chloe Byles, Dan Halfon, Robert McCartney, Jason Smith, Henry Cable, rh Vince Hames, Duncan McCartney, Karl Smith, Sir Robert Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hammond, Stephen McIntosh, Miss Anne Soames, rh Nicholas Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hancock, Matthew McLoughlin, rh Mr Soubry, Anna Carmichael, Neil Hands, Greg Patrick Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Carswell, Mr Douglas Harper, Mr Mark McPartland, Stephen Spencer, Mr Mark Cash, Mr William Harrington, Richard McVey, Esther Stanley, rh Sir John Chishti, Rehman Harris, Rebecca Menzies, Mark Stephenson, Andrew Clappison, Mr James Hart, Simon Metcalfe, Stephen Stevenson, John Clark, rh Greg Harvey, Sir Nick Miller, Maria Stewart, Bob Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hayes, Mr John Mills, Nigel Stewart, Iain Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Heald, Oliver Milton, Anne Stride, Mel Coffey, Dr Thérèse Heath, Mr David Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stuart, Mr Graham Collins, Damian Heaton-Harris, Chris Moore, rh Michael Stunell, Andrew Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hemming, John Morgan, Nicky Sturdy, Julian Crabb, Stephen Henderson, Gordon Morris, Anne Marie Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Crockart, Mike Hendry, Charles Morris, James Swire, rh Mr Hugo Crouch, Tracey Herbert, rh Nick Mosley, Stephen Syms, Mr Robert Davey, rh Mr Edward Hinds, Damian Mowat, David Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Davies, David T. C. Hoban, Mr Mark Mulholland, Greg Thurso, John (Monmouth) Hollobone, Mr Philip Munt, Tessa Timpson, Mr Edward Davies, Glyn Hopkins, Kris Neill, Robert Tomlinson, Justin de Bois, Nick Horwood, Martin Newmark, Mr Brooks Tredinnick, David Dinenage, Caroline Howarth, Sir Gerald Newton, Sarah Truss, Elizabeth Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Howell, John Nokes, Caroline Turner, Mr Andrew Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Hughes, rh Simon Norman, Jesse Tyrie, Mr Andrew Dorries, Nadine Huhne, rh Chris Nuttall, Mr David Uppal, Paul Doyle-Price, Jackie Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Offord, Dr Matthew Vaizey, Mr Edward Drax, Richard Hunter, Mark Ollerenshaw, Eric Vara, Mr Shailesh Duddridge, James Hurd, Mr Nick Opperman, Guy Vickers, Martin Duncan, rh Mr Alan Jackson, Mr Stewart Ottaway, Richard Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Javid, Sajid Paice, rh Sir James Walker, Mr Charles Dunne, Mr Philip Jenkin, Mr Bernard Parish, Neil Walker, Mr Robin Ellis, Michael Johnson, Gareth Patel, Priti Wallace, Mr Ben Ellison, Jane Johnson, Joseph Pawsey, Mark Walter, Mr Robert Ellwood, Mr Tobias Jones, Andrew Penrose, John Ward, Mr David Elphicke, Charlie Jones, Mr David Percy, Andrew Eustice, George Jones, Mr Marcus Perry, Claire Watkinson, Angela Evans, Graham Kawczynski, Daniel Phillips, Stephen Weatherley, Mike Evans, Jonathan Kelly, Chris Pincher, Christopher Webb, Steve Evennett, Mr David Kirby, Simon Poulter, Dr Daniel Wheeler, Heather Fabricant, Michael Knight, rh Mr Greg Prisk, Mr Mark White, Chris Field, Mark Kwarteng, Kwasi Pugh, John Whittaker, Craig Foster, rh Mr Don Lamb, Norman Raab, Mr Dominic Whittingdale, Mr John Freeman, George Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Randall, rh Mr John Wiggin, Bill Fullbrook, Lorraine Latham, Pauline Reckless, Mark Willetts, rh Mr David Fuller, Richard Laws, rh Mr David Redwood, rh Mr John Williams, Mr Mark Gale, Sir Roger Leadsom, Andrea Rees-Mogg, Jacob Williams, Roger Garnier, Sir Edward Lee, Jessica Reid, Mr Alan Williams, Stephen Garnier, Mark Lee, Dr Phillip Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Williamson, Gavin Gauke, Mr David Lefroy, Jeremy Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Wilson, Mr Rob George, Andrew Leigh, Mr Edward Robertson, Mr Laurence Wollaston, Dr Sarah Gibb, Mr Nick Leslie, Charlotte Rogerson, Dan Wright, Simon Gilbert, Stephen Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Rudd, Amber Young, rh Sir George Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lewis, Brandon Ruffley, Mr David Zahawi, Nadhim Glen, John Lewis, Dr Julian Russell, Sir Bob Goldsmith, Zac Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Rutley, David Tellers for the Noes: Goodwill, Mr Robert Lidington, rh Mr David Sandys, Laura Mark Lancaster and Gove, rh Michael Lilley, rh Mr Peter Scott, Mr Lee Jenny Willott Graham, Richard Lloyd, Stephen Grant, Mrs Helen Lord, Jonathan Question accordingly negatived. 203 11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Higher and Further Education 204

Higher and Further Education the number of applications, including from mature students, and the increase in the withdrawal rate for Madam Deputy Speaker: We now come to the second students who have been offered university places but debate. I have to announce that the Speaker has selected decided not to take them, which stands in direct contrast the amendment in the name of the Prime Minister. to the rather more rosy picture he is trying to paint. As I was saying, the Liberal Democrats went into the 2010 general election promising to scrap tuition fees 7.17 pm altogether—we all remember that famous pledge—but Shabana Mahmood (Birmingham, Ladywood) (Lab): they broke their promise, and the trust of those who I beg to move, voted for them, and betrayed the students whose votes That this House notes with concern that September 2012 they courted so assiduously ahead of the election. I marks the first term where students will face the trebling of wonder how many of them will rediscover their pre-election student fees to £9,000 a year; further notes that barriers are also principles in the Lobbies tonight. Although the being put up for vocational routes, with direct Government Conservatives are no doubt pleased that most of the support for learners cut for level 3 courses and above, which anger surrounding the betrayal on tuition fees has focused includes apprenticeships and access courses to university, and on the Liberal Democrats, they too have form, having with Higher Education-style loans being introduced, costing learners previously voted against a rise in tuition fees to £3,000. up to £4,000 a year; and calls on the Government to change course and, as a first step, reduce tuition fees to £6,000, funded by reversing the corporation tax cut for banks and requiring graduates Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) earning over £65,000 a year to pay higher interest rates on their (PC): I am grateful to the hon. Lady for giving way and student loans. congratulate her on her appointment. The motion In just over a week, university freshers weeks will “calls on the Government to change course and, as a first step, kick off in earnest ahead of the new academic year. reduce tuition fees to £6,000”. New students will soon start arriving at their institutions As she knows, in Wales fees are substantially lower, and excited, nervous and full of anticipation and hope for in Scotland there are no fees at all, so if right hon. and their futures as they look forward to three, maybe four, hon. Members from Wales and Scotland support the of the best years of their life. They do so against a motion, are they in effect advocating an increase in fees backdrop of confidence in the quality of our world-class to £6,000 in their respective countries? higher education sector, which collectively will do all it can to give them the best possible higher education experience. Shabana Mahmood: Both the motion and our alternative proposal for the Government of a £6,000 cap on fees But this year is also markedly different, for this year reflect our position as it relates to England, not the we will see the first cohort of students who as a result of devolved Administrations. The Conservatives and the the Government’s action will be paying tuition fees of Liberal Democrats have played politics with tuition fees up to £9,000 a year and leaving university with significant in the past, and it is students today who are paying the debts which for some will exceed £50,000. Until the price. Government changed the rules of the game, higher education had been paid for by a partnership between the student and taxpayer since 1998, but this Government’s Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) trebling of tuition fees in conjunction with their 80% (LD): I am happy for us to deal with the allegations cut in the teaching grant for universities represents a about what happened after we did not win the general betrayal of future generations of students. election and therefore could not deliver what we promised, The partnership model for funding has been torn up, but I would be grateful if the hon. Lady would quickly and students have been told to go it alone. They must confirm that Labour promised no tuition fees, but then bear the burden of the cost entirely on their own. We all introduced them, promised in its manifesto not to increase know that this is not what the Liberal Democrats said them, but then did so, and has now adopted tuition fees they would do before the general election. to £6,000. Will she confirm that that is entirely correct?

Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): Shabana Mahmood: The right hon. Gentleman’s party The hon. Lady is speaking fluently from the Dispatch went into the 2010 general election promising to scrap Box, but she is doing our young people a disservice. She tuition fees at a time when they knew the country faced is scaremongering and sending them the message that a difficult economic situation, so I am afraid that he they cannot afford university when the monthly payments cannot escape his own record by looking to much older are lower than they were before, the threshold before Parliaments. We are talking about the burden of debt they start paying is higher than it ever was before and that this Government have placed on students, which is anyone who suffers illness, who is pregnant and stops much more significant than anything they faced before. working or has— Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con): Does the hon. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I am Lady not agree that there is something inherently right sure that the hon. Gentleman wants to catch my eye and about those who benefit from having a degree paying make a speech later rather than waste time now. for it?

Shabana Mahmood: If the hon. Gentleman had not Shabana Mahmood: The principle that those who decided to patronise me at the beginning of his intervention, benefit should pay a contribution towards their degree he might have had enough time to complete his mini-speech. is absolutely right and one we support, but we believe I will move on later to the record drops we have seen in that paying for higher education should be a partnership 205 Higher and Further Education11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Higher and Further Education 206 between the individual student who benefits and the the person making the decision and the country as a taxpayer, who also benefits greatly from those going whole, because if they miss out on higher education, we into higher education. miss out by failing to capture their full potential.

Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): The hon. Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con): On Lady might recall that I voted against tuition fees, and I affordability, will the hon. Lady at least admit that a am saddened that some of the things we warned about graduate earning £21,000 will pay £45 less than they have come to fruition, but I struggle to understand why would have done under the system we inherited from the income level of £65,000 has been chosen. How her Government? would that be funded, and when would the interest rates come in? If someone drops below that income level, Shabana Mahmood: And if the hon. Gentleman’s would they fall back down? Can she also explain why party took on board our £6k proposal, there would be the Labour party defends retaining child benefit for an even more progressive system for future generations people on £65,000 but wants to land them with a higher of students. interest rate on their student loans? Cost is the real problem. The Centre for Economic Performance recently surveyed 12,000 teenagers and Shabana Mahmood: Our proposal that the Government found that all the indications are that the hike in fees in should reduce the headline level of tuition fees from late 2010 increased the perception that going to university £9,000 to £6,000 is an alternative measure that they is simply too expensive. That perception was significantly could introduce right now, paid for by not going ahead higher in comprehensive schools, compared with with the corporation tax cut for the banks. It would be a independent and selective state schools, and among way for the Government to send a message to the children eligible for free school meals. If these perceptions country that they will support future generation of influence effort at school or behaviour post-16, they will students, rather than saddle them with ever higher levels increase future socio-economic inequality. of debt. As for those earning £65,000 or more, that Mature students are one of the worst affected groups, reflects earnings in each and every year of their working as many more are choosing not to go to university this lives. All we are asking is that the wealthiest 10% of year. The Government failed to take into account the graduates pay a little more towards the cost of higher effects of their policies on that group, and we have seen education in order to reduce the costs for those elsewhere. an 11.3% drop in such applications, making them the biggest group affected. There are around 30,000 fewer Several hon. Members rose— older applicants this year than last year.

Shabana Mahmood: I will make a little progress before Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend giving way again. agree that, at a time when the Government are closing The biggest impact has been on the number of applicants. off opportunities for young people at every turn, with Although applications for the coming term are still the axing of the future jobs fund, the abolition of the open, we already know that there are around 50,000 education maintenance allowance and youth unemployment fewer applications to higher education for the coming now over 1 million, opening up these opportunities to year and that one in 20 18-year-olds who would have young people from deprived backgrounds is more important been expected to apply in previous years have not than ever? applied this time around, which represents a decline of around 15,000. I am told by the sector that total accepted Shabana Mahmood: My hon. Friend makes an extremely applications are down by about 30,000 on last year. powerful point. I agree with her comment and endorse That is equivalent to shutting down two mid-sized it entirely. universities—for example Imperial college and the university Too often we in this House consider higher education of Lincoln. issues through the prism of the 18-year-old undergraduate going to university for the first time. Although the Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con): Will the hon. Lady experience of such undergraduates is of course incredibly give way? important, we know from the figures that in 2009-10 more than a third of undergraduates entering university Shabana Mahmood: Not at the moment. for the first time were 21 or older. The impact of the That is set against a backdrop of a worsening economic trebling of tuition fees on that group is particularly outlook as a result of the Government’s failed economic interesting, as their perspective and actual experience of policies. The economy is in a double-dip recession made debt and finance are very different. These are people who in Downing street. We know that there is a strong link often have significant financial and family commitments, between periods of recession and interest in higher with mortgages to pay and child care costs. If they are education, as people seek to enhance their employability making a decision to walk away from enhancing their and competitiveness in difficult economic circumstances, skills by obtaining a degree, they are doing so on the but this year that is not the case. There is a massive drop basis of cost. that, combined with cuts in the number of places, will There is a much higher rate of withdrawals from the result in tens of thousands fewer students entering application process this year than last year—16% higher. higher education in 2012. It indicates straight away the At this stage, 13,138 students who are holding offers from impact of the Government’s trebling of tuition fees. universities have decided to withdraw from the process. Students are being put off and are basing decisions not That is an extremely worrying sign that students who on whether a university education is right for them, but had already made the decision to go to university are on whether they can afford it. That is a tragedy for both now being put off. Having attended open days, filled out 207 Higher and Further Education11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Higher and Further Education 208

[Shabana Mahmood] Steve Brine: They say that persistence always pays off. I thank the hon. Lady for giving way; she is being very applications and gone to interviews, they are now saying generous with her time. She keeps saying that applications “No thanks.” Where will they end up? What are their are down. At the university of Winchester, fees have prospects for the future given the record levels of youth increased from just over £3,000 a year to just on £8,000, unemployment and the ongoing recession? and applications are up on last year. The main reason is that the graduate employment outcomes of students at Nadhim Zahawi rose— the university of Winchester, with teacher training being one of the biggest parts of its business, are 97%. Does Steve Brine: Will the hon. Lady give way? she accept that the key point is that it is up to higher education institutions to make the case for students to Shabana Mahmood: Not at the moment. come and spend their money with them so that they will Reading the Government’s amendment, one would get the benefit from it? think that there were no problems with their policy whatsoever and that it has had hardly any impact—further Shabana Mahmood: I am glad that I gave another proof, if any were needed, that they are complacent and hon. Gentleman an opportunity to make a mini-speech. out of touch. If only the experience of the whole of the higher education sector was the same as that in Winchester. Nadhim Zahawi rose— Nadhim Zahawi: Will the hon. Lady give way? Steve Brine rose— Shabana Mahmood: I am afraid not; I have no desire Shabana Mahmood: I am not going to take any more to respond to a Whips’ question. interventions at the moment; I will do so later. The trebling of fees is not the only thing that this The Government try to explain away the impact of Government have done to destabilise and put at risk the their choices by saying that the drops in applications are quality of our higher education sector. due to the decline in the population of 18-year-olds. However, that does not get them off the hook because, as the Independent Commission on Fees pointed out in Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op): Is its recent report, in the rest of the UK, where the fees there not another reason to be concerned about the regime has remained the same, there has not been the current admissions data? For example, has my hon. same drop in applications. Friend seen today’s report suggesting that even vice- chancellors of universities that have done reasonably Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): It may be well in terms of applications continue to be worried relevant to look at the applications of Northern Ireland about a decline in the number of applications for humanities students to Northern Ireland universities versus GB and languages? universities. While applications to Northern Ireland institutions have been consistent with previous years, Shabana Mahmood: My hon. Friend is absolutely this year applications to GB institutions have dropped right. There are worrying signs of perverse things happening by 14%. Even allowing for demographics, it is clear that as a result of the Government’s policies. Of course, students are choosing to stay at home and not to apply there has been a focus on STEM subjects—science, to university, perhaps in England specifically, because technology, engineering and maths—which are very of the rise in fees. important to our continued economic growth, but that should not happen at the expense of modern languages Shabana Mahmood: The hon. Lady makes a very or humanities. It is very worrying that we are seeing powerful point, and she is entirely right in her conclusions. drops in the number of applications for those subjects. The Independent Commission on Fees found that in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland the number of Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): Is it not true that the applicants aged 20 or over increased between 2010 and impact of Government policy is putting off not only 2012 while, by contrast, in England they fell by 12%. UK students but, with the visa debacle, international The number of younger applicants—those aged up to students, and that that combination threatens to destabilise 19—fell by 7%, but by only 1% to 2% in the other home our universities to the detriment of individuals and UK countries. Although population size could be a factor, plc? the report found that the relative decline in English applications was much higher. That raises concerns Shabana Mahmood: I thank my hon. Friend for raising about the impact of fees, because there are falls in the the subject of international students, which has been number of applicants both in absolute terms and relative much in the news recently with the case of London to the rest of the UK. Metropolitan university. I have written to the Minister for Universities and Science with some detailed questions Nadhim Zahawi rose— about the handling of the London Met affair. I have yet to receive a response, but I very much look forward to it Steve Brine rose— given that at last week’s Business, Innovation and Skills questions he ducked the opportunity to promise that no Shabana Mahmood: I have taken an intervention genuine international student at London Metropolitan from the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim university would be financially worse off. Perhaps he Zahawi), so I give way to the hon. Member for Winchester would like to intervene now to confirm that that will be (Steve Brine). the case—but I see that he is not going to do so. 209 Higher and Further Education11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Higher and Further Education 210

Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): I have met some of Shabana Mahmood: I thank my hon. Friend for his the students at London Met. It is not just a question of question, which the Government have managed to duck being financially worse off; some had come to the end through their refusal to introduce a higher education of their degrees and had been asked to take re-sits when Bill in this Parliament. Frankly, they were taught a very they were six weeks away from getting their PhDs. It is hard lesson on the Health and Social Care Bill and very important that no matter what the Government other reforms that they have tried to make, so they have have done—they may have done the right thing; the bottled it on higher education, which means that there courts will decide in the end—genuine students should are regulatory gaps in the system. I and others in the not lose out as a result of their decision. sector have warned that regulation is incredibly important to the reputation of our higher education sector, and that the Government should not miss an opportunity to Shabana Mahmood: My right hon. Friend, who is ensure that the regulatory system for all providers of Chair of the Home Affairs Committee, has been speaking higher education in our country is robust and represents up powerfully on behalf of genuine international students a fair and level playing field. at London Metropolitan university, and I commend him for his efforts in trying to protect them from the The core and margin model further undermines the impact of the decision to revoke its highly trusted status. idea of student choice. The policy makes a mockery of He is absolutely right. Genuine international students the Minister’s ambition to put students at the heart of who have paid huge sums of money for the privilege of the system, because it artificially takes places away from a UK higher education and who have come to the end, institutions that have high demand for their courses, to or almost the end, of their studies at London Met should much lower-demand colleges. It is incoherent, hypocritical, at least have been given the opportunity to continue and bad for students and bad for universities. Alongside the complete them there rather than have to scramble around core and margin model, the Government have removed to find an alternative institution that might take them. a number of controls for recruitment at grades AAB as It seems entirely right that new international students a result of the plan to go down to ABB next year. are prevented from coming to London Met until these Again, the implementation of the numbers control policy issues are resolved, probably through the courts system, poses a threat to the stability of the higher education but those who were already here and were genuine sector. international students should not have had to suffer in this way. John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab): My This is one of the hardest years for universities, which hon. Friend is making a very powerful critique of the begin the year 20,000 places down thanks to 10,000 chaos caused by recent policies. We have two very fine places being directly cut by the Government and a universities in Sheffield in south Yorkshire. Sheffield further 10,000 being taken away because of the discredited, Hallam university has told me, just as she has said, that and frankly chaotic, core and margin policy. Core and the problem is that margin was a deliberate attempt to force fees down—but “the goalposts were moved often and late this year…This made it crucially, not to benefit students but because the Minister difficult for potential students to decide where they might want to got his sums wrong when he, the Business Secretary, go and difficult for Universities to be precise about what they could offer and how many places they had.” who is sitting next to him, the Deputy Prime Minister and the Prime Minister were busy telling everybody that Does my hon. Friend recognise those problems, which £9,000 would be the exception rather than the norm and are being caused by the Government’s policies? that the average would be much more like £7,500. We now know that that is not how things panned out. To Shabana Mahmood: I thank my right hon. Friend for cover that up, and no doubt to get the Treasury off his his intervention. In fact, I visited Sheffield Hallam back, the Minister introduced his core and margin university during universities week and the academic policy. That policy does not put students at the heart of staff I met made exactly the same point to me. The way the system. First, it sends a dangerously conflicting in which the Government have gone about making their message about the cost of tuition. On the one hand, the changes to higher education, with the introduction of Government tell students that they can afford £9,000 a the core and margin model after applications had been year because of the repayment terms, but on the other made and after fees for the academic year had been set, they try to show that cheaper courses are a good option was chaotic, caused universities no end of difficulties for those put off by the top level of £9,000. It also acts and is absolutely not the way to treat a world-class as an inverse pupil premium. Incentivising poorer students higher education system. to take up cheaper courses means that they are entering Last year’s estimate of the number of students who into a higher education experience with the least being would fall into the grade AAB category was 20,000 spent on them, their learning resources, their activities lower than what transpired when the results came out a and their institution. This undermines the Deputy Prime few weeks ago. That places a considerable burden on Minister’s pupil premium policy, and there is a risk that the student support budget, which cannot properly be it will further entrench educational inequality in the planned, and risks exacerbating funding pressures on UK. top of the points that my hon. Friend has made about Sheffield Hallam university. Mr Thomas: Some of the cheaper courses to which There is a considerable risk that the nature of equivalent my hon. Friend refers are clearly intended to be provided qualifications—a distinction for a BTEC, for example, by commercial, for-profit universities. Why does she will be counted in with the AAB-plus grading—means think that Ministers believe that commercial, for-profit that estimates will be very difficult to calculate and are universities should be regulated to a lower standard highly likely to be inaccurate. This adds yet more uncertainty than mainstream universities? and instability to a sector already fraught with upheaval. 211 Higher and Further Education11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Higher and Further Education 212

[Shabana Mahmood] courses in health, public services and care, and over 45,000 in those for education and training. Sixty three Institutions will lose out, budgets will not stretch, and per cent. of those affected are women. A drop-off from services and support for students will be put under those numbers would hit local services, and local economic significant strain. growth prospects could hit the productivity of the public The early indication is that the policy is not working. sector and the life chances of tens of thousands of adult The vice-chancellor of Southampton told the press last learners. The policy will also affect those taking courses week that his university, which was meant to benefit in science, technology, engineering and maths when we from the AAB policy, has been struggling to recruit and need more people, not fewer, to take STEM subjects in is about 600 students down. I have visited Southampton order to compete in the world with new technology and university with my hon. Friend the shadow Business new industries. Secretary. It is an excellent institution and I am sorry to As with higher education, the Government’s policies see that it is facing such difficult circumstances as a on further education take us in the wrong direction on result of the Government’s ill-thought-out and ill-planned participation and social mobility. We are mindful of the policies. impact that the trebling of fees is having on students On the heels of the trebling of tuition fees and the and would-be students, so this time last year we suggested scrapping of the education maintenance allowance from an alternative to the Government. We have called on 2013-14, the Government are withdrawing the support them to cut the tuition fee cap to a third, to a maximum that they offer for people aged 24 or over who take of £6,000. We have proposed a fully funded way of A-level equivalent courses and above, and are introducing doing that, paid for by not going ahead with the corporation a system of loans for further education students. These tax cut for the banks and through some additional could be as much as £4,000 a year. Course fees are payments by the wealthiest graduates. expected to rise dramatically as colleges look to recoup the money they lose from Government funding. At Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): present, the Government provide about 50% of the The hon. Lady is being very generous in giving way. We funding for such courses, so this mirrors the problems know now the difference between a Labour tuition fee that occurred as a result of their disastrous changes to and a Conservative tuition fee—it is £3,000. She says higher education loans. According to the Skills Funding that the proposal will be funded by reversing the corporation Agency’s figures, about 376,000 people took such courses tax for banks. Does that include Scottish financial in 2010-11. The changes could have a real and damaging institutions? Why should they pay for a cut in tuition effect on social mobility and on individuals’ career and fees for English students? job prospects. It is an attack on aspiration and on people trying to get on. Many of those taking level 3 Shabana Mahmood: The corporation tax cut is for qualifications missed out on the opportunities the first banks across the UK. time around and may come from disadvantaged backgrounds. Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): Will the hon. Lady give way? Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ Shabana Mahmood: No, I will not, because I must Co-op): The further education college in my constituency, wrap up. Under our alternative package, the top 10% of Hackney community college, provides a lot of support earners—those with average incomes of £65,000 or to precisely those people whom my hon. Friend is talking more over their working lives—would pay more, but about—people who did not receive education the first research from the House of Commons Library has time around and who now often have children. Now they shown that all other income groups would be better off have to make a choice about whether they can commit under this package. Universities would receive funding to a course for three years and I fear that many will to compensate them for the loss of income from lower choose not to. Does my hon. Friend have any further fees and the package would be revenue-neutral. The comments on the Government’s policy in that regard? important point is that the headline level of debt carried by students would be significantly lower and would Shabana Mahmood: I thank my hon. Friend for her avoid the harm to families and graduates that would be intervention. She is absolutely right. As I have said, caused by the Government’s plans. choices that are being made on the basis of affordability represent a tragedy not just for the individual making Tonight’s vote is the last opportunity before the new them, but for us as a country, because we are missing academic term begins for this House to force the out on their potential at a time when we should be Government to change course on their trebling of tuition investing in our education and skills base. In a highly fees and to give hope to future generations of students skilled economy we need our people to have high-level that we as a House are prepared to prioritise them and skills. This Government are creating circumstances in their future; that we will not abandon them; that we which that will not be possible in the future. understand that we need to provide them with ladders of opportunity, not kick them away; and that we will do This Government’s policies will affect level 3 whatever we can to help them fulfil their aspirations. If apprenticeships for those aged 24 and over. The added they are allowed to succeed, we as a country will succeed, costs could act as a deterrent for potential apprentices and I commend this motion to the House. and the added bureaucracy could put off businesses from offering places. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): I warn A high percentage of learners are also enrolled in Members that I will have to introduce a seven-minute courses directly related to, or benefiting, public services. limit on speeches, and that that will have to go down For example, just over 90,000 learners were enrolled in later on, due to the amount of time that we have. 213 Higher and Further Education11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Higher and Further Education 214

7.50 pm Shabana Mahmood: The Minister has tried to defend his £9k policy, but has avoided saying anything about The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David the 80% cut to teaching grant funding, which has Willetts): I beg to move an amendment, to leave out necessitated the trebling of tuition fees to £9,000 a year. from “House” to the end of the Question and add: What does he have to say about that? “congratulates all those who have recently achieved their educational qualifications; notes the number of full-time higher education students in 2012 is expected to be higher than in any year under Mr Willetts: That leads me on neatly to setting out the previous administration; believes that the pupil premium, what our reforms are accomplishing. The first thing which is designed to raise the attainment of pupils from low-income they are accomplishing—[Interruption.] The hon. Member households, represents a powerful mechanism for widening for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood) will participation in higher education; welcomes the increased spending have to be patient, because I am going to set out the on widening participation in higher education, including the figures for her. Our reforms ensure that students will higher maintenance grants, the National Scholarship Programme continue to get well-funded higher education, while at and the extension of tuition loans to part-time students; further the same time—we make no apology for this—saving notes the Institute for Fiscal Studies’ recent finding that the new student finance system ‘is actually more progressive than its money for the Exchequer, because of the fiscal crisis predecessor: the poorest 29 per cent of graduates will be better off that we inherited from the previous Government. The under the new system’; supports the extra information provided total amount of cash going to universities to pay for the to prospective students through the student finance tour and the teaching of students is £7.2 billion for 2011-12, £7.4 billion Key Information Set; further supports the efforts being made to for 2012-13 and £7.9 billion for 2013-14. We are increasing ensure the best possible match between students and institutions, the amount of cash available to finance the education of with one-quarter of all undergraduate places removed from centralised university students, while significantly reducing the number controls; and congratulates the Government for working with employers to deliver an unprecedented increase in apprenticeships, Exchequer contribution. with 800,000 new starts since September 2010.” Contrary to what the Opposition spokesman said, we I welcome this opportunity to debate our reforms to are maintaining a partnership between Exchequer funding higher and further education. It is the right time to have and private funding. The latest OECD figures, which this debate, as hundreds of thousands of students are were published yesterday in its excellent education starting at university. We congratulate them on their handbook, estimate that approximately 40% of the achievement and wish them well at university. We also costs of educating students will be met directly by the welcome this opportunity to set out our policies. I will Exchequer. The other 60% does indeed come not from describe our approach to higher education and my students, but from graduates when they can afford to excellent new colleague, the Under-Secretary of State pay it back. That is a sensible way of financing higher for Skills, my hon. Friend the Member for West Suffolk education in an age of austerity. (Matthew Hancock), will set out our approach to training As well as providing more cash for universities while and further education. saving money for the Exchequer, our second achievement is increasing the choice and flexibility in the system by Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab): Will the Minister liberalising the controls over numbers that we inherited. give way? We have started that this year with our liberalisation for AAB students. We estimate that approximately one in four students will benefit from the freedom of choosing Mr Willetts: In a moment. a university without any of the old corporatist controls Of course, it is also right to scrutinise the Opposition’s on the total number of places at individual universities policies, as set out in the motion. I will turn to the that we inherited. We are proud to be going further next previous Minister for universities, the right hon. Member year by including ABB students, meaning that one in for Tottenham (Mr Lammy), in a moment. I hope he three students will enjoy those freedoms. will accept that under the inevitable partisanship of these exchanges, we should remind ourselves that all Shabana Mahmood: Will the Minister give way? three political parties, faced with the dilemma of how to finance higher education in the future, have concluded Mr Willetts: I want to make some progress, but I will that the right way forward is to have no up-front payments of course give way to the Opposition spokesman for a by students, but instead to have a graduate repayment second time. scheme, paid for through pay-as-you-earn and incorporating the best features of a graduate income tax. All three parties, when faced with the responsibilities of Government, Shabana Mahmood: I thank the Minister for giving have reached the same decision. way a second time. Will he remind the House why he had to introduce his core and margin model? Does he remember telling the House on many occasions that Mr Lammy: The right hon. Gentleman said that he £9k fees would be the exception, not the norm? welcomed the debate and thought that it had come at an opportune moment. When does he intend to publish the White Paper and bring forward legislation in this Mr Willetts: I did not recognise what the hon. Lady area? said about fees of £7,500. I have explained to the House many times the basis of the calculations. We introduced the policy to bring more diversity into the system. There Mr Willetts: We have published our White Paper and are local further education colleges across the country have set out our proposals in several consultation that, for the first time, will be able to offer higher documents. We are implementing those proposals step education, financed out of our core and margin policy, by step. which is to be welcomed. 215 Higher and Further Education11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Higher and Further Education 216

[Mr Willetts] Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab): Why did the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills We have therefore increased choice and flexibility. We not stand up to the Home Office and the UK Border have also transformed the amount of information that Agency, and not stand up for British universities and is available for prospective students, which we believe their reputation around the world, by not allowing this will drive up standards in universities as prospective crazy decision to go ahead, which is doing untold students think about what contact hours they will have, damage to this world-class industry? what the class sizes will be, how universities score on the national students survey and, crucially, how universities Mr Willetts: It was an operational decision by the score on employment outcomes for graduates. UK Border Agency, for whom the matter is very clear. Indeed, this morning, I joined Which? at a London Highly trusted status, which is enjoyed by individual comprehensive for the launch of its excellent new website, universities, is highly prized and brings heavy responsibilities. which offers far more information to prospective students UKBA’s assessment, independently made, was that London than ever before. It was a great moment. It was also a Met was not meeting the responsibilities that it needed pleasure to be joined by the president of the National to in order to have highly trusted status. In those Union of Students. The NUS is working with Which? circumstances, it was unable to advise Ministers that the to provide better consumer information for prospective situation should be allowed to continue. That is the students. background to the decision, but we are focusing on ensuring the best possible support for legitimate overseas students as constructively as we can. Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab): If the information that the Minister is giving out is so good, why are Simon Hughes: Does the Minister agree that we need withdrawals from the application process up by 16%? to persuade everybody to get the message across not Does that not show that the more information people only that there are no fees to be paid up front or while at get about the costs that the Government have imposed, university, but that there are still places available not the more they are put off? just for first-time, 18-year-old students but for more mature students? We should also encourage people to Mr Willetts: No. I think that we have succeeded in consider university not as the only option in the weeks getting across to prospective students the important ahead but as one option. message that they do not have to pay up front to go to university. I hope that all Members from all parts of the Mr Willetts: My right hon. Friend is absolutely right, House, regardless of their views on the fees, will agree and that leads me to my next point. that we should all communicate the message that no Another feature of our reforms is that we have done student pays up front and that they pay back only as everything to encourage students from the widest possible graduates. I pay tribute to the enormous efforts of my range of backgrounds to continue to apply for university. right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old I remind the House of the figures, which the Opposition Southwark (Simon Hughes) in that regard. spokesman carefully ignored in her lengthy speech. The percentage of applications to university by young people Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) has indeed fallen—I accept that—to 31.6% from 32.6% (Lab): I wonder whether the right hon. Gentleman will last year. Last year’s rate was the highest on record, and help me communicate a message to one of my constituents, this year’s is the second-highest on record. It is a higher who is here legally as an overseas student. He is unable rate of university applications than in any year when to go into the third year at London Metropolitan the Labour party was in government. I believe that that university because, for some reason, he is no longer is because we have successfully communicated to young allowed to go there. He wishes to pay the fees and wants people that they will not have to pay up front to go to to complete his degree. Will the right hon. Gentleman university. Of course, we are also increasing maintenance help me convey to him why his education has been so support for students at university this year. The maintenance abruptly and unfairly stopped? grant and support for bursaries are going up. That is why we still have record rates of application to university, Mr Willetts: Several points have been made about and we should celebrate and remember that fact. London Met, so let me explain the latest position to the House. I fully understand that there are genuine overseas Steve Brine: Given that the Minister inherited a students who are here legitimately and who need as commitment to cutting £600 million from the budget, much assurance as we can offer them about their ability what would the outcome have been if he had not taken to pursue their studies. That is why we set up a taskforce the decision to base university financing on a system of on the day that the UK Border Agency took its operational student fees and loans? Presumably a dramatic drop in decision. The taskforce has met several times. It is led by numbers and me having to say to thousands of my the head of the Higher Education Funding Council for constituents, “Sorry, university’s not for you.” England and other bodies are involved. Next Monday, as a result of the efforts of the task force, there will be a Mr Willetts: We inherited from the previous Government mini clearing procedure. We are collecting offers from a simple line in the 2009 autumn statement announcing universities around London and elsewhere of places on £600 million of cuts in higher education, science and particular courses, which will be available to overseas research. Absolutely no work had been done about students at London Met. I will be happy to keep the where the cuts should be and how they should be House updated, in whatever way is suitable, as the delivered, but they would have meant either falling taskforce makes progress in ensuring a fair deal for student numbers or less support for science and research. overseas students. We have been able to offer cash protection in a ring-fenced 217 Higher and Further Education11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Higher and Further Education 218 science budget, and as I showed the House earlier this of students and for outreach, bursaries and access evening, there has been an increase in the total funding programmes that we thought Labour supported. He available for teaching in our universities. To achieve that would take away that £2 billion of funding for higher when we are facing the severe financial problems that education. He claims that he would miraculously be we inherited from the previous Government is evidence able to finance that, although admittedly he would only of our commitment to opportunities for young people have £1.1 billion so he is £900 million short already. and to universities and research. Let us go through how the shadow Secretary of State That is exactly what the outside experts say. For claims he would plug that gap. He stated: example, I remind the Opposition spokesman of the “£350 million will come from automatic savings from reducing assessment by the Institute for Fiscal Studies. It stated the cap to £6,000 because it will mean some associated expenditure, in June: such as on as fee waivers, will no longer be required”. “The HE funding regime to be introduced in England in The trick is in the words “such as”, because it is not just September 2012 will be substantially more progressive than the fee waivers. Let us be clear about what that “associated current system. Roughly the poorest 30% of graduates, in terms expenditure” is. It is programmes to assist with student of lifetime earnings, will be better off…than under the current retention; outreach programmes whereby universities system…Universities will also be better off, on average, and the taxpayer will save around £2,500 per graduate.” go to local schools and encourage students to apply to university; and bursary programmes financed out of Only yesterday I met the head of the education division the higher fees to offer our students increased financial of the OECD, who was here to launch “Education at a support. I have a simple question for the hon. Member Glance”, its annual publication. He described our system for Birmingham, Ladywood. I have already permitted of repaying loans as her to intervene twice, and I will do so again. Can she “the most advanced system in the OECD”, offer a guarantee that no student at university would be and added that worse off as a result of the changes that she would make “probably no system does it better.” to save that £350 million? That was what the impartial head of the OECD’s education division said yesterday. Shabana Mahmood: I am very happy to intervene on the Minister, and I can absolutely guarantee that. What Tristram Hunt rose— he is missing in his desperate attempt to attack the much more progressive £6,000 fee proposal is that it Mr Willetts: I hope that the hon. Gentleman will would automatically obviate the need for quite so many agree that he should endorse the assessments of the IFS fee waivers and bursaries created by his more expensive and OECD. system of tuition fees.

Tristram Hunt: While the Minister was having that Mr Willetts: That is a very confusing intervention. conversation, did the OECD back the Government’s First, the hon. Lady said that she could guarantee that strategy of an 80% cut in the teaching budget at a time nobody would be worse off, then she said that Labour’s when every other major nation is investing in education policy would obviate the need for bursaries. Let us be and higher education and thinking about those industries absolutely clear that no student will pay fees up front. as part of the future rather than cutting them? We are in They will be paid by graduates. Bursaries matter because the same bracket as Romania. they are cash for students now. Is she pledging that the extra money from fees above £6,000, some of which Mr Willetts: The OECD actually believes that our finances bursary programmes and extra support for proposals are a way of continuing to ensure that a good students, would continue after fees were reduced to number of people go to university even when we are £6,000? Yes or no? Would all bursaries be preserved? having to save Exchequer funding. It believes that other countries can learn from our model. Shabana Mahmood: The position of bursaries would I have set out our policies, and I should like to turn to be unaffected under the £6,000 proposal. We are saying the Labour party’s policies, about which the hon. Member that the additional cost incurred by moving to £9,000 for Birmingham, Ladywood said surprisingly little in tuition fees would be brought down. We would not need her lengthy speech. We know from the motion that quite so much money, because people would not have Labour’s policy is £6,000 fees. There is a long and the same level of debt. unhappy history to Labour’s higher education policy. I will not take her through the whole of it, although I am Mr Willetts: We are talking about future graduate tempted. I will jump straight to where we are at present, debt, and the House is noticing that the hon. Lady is as stated in the motion and in the longest single statement wriggling on the issue. We are saying that the extra of Labour’s policy that we have found, the speech by the funding helps to pay out cash for students at university shadow Secretary of State on 2 December. His explanation through higher bursaries that are paid for out of revenues of that policy took up a tiny fragment of the speech, a from higher fees. Students will have observed the failure few lines. It was the type of fragment of text that of the Labour party to commit to maintaining that academics in our universities love to pore over. He said: money. “I’ll explain how this works: reducing the maximum level of Let us look at the next item that will supposedly meet fees to £6,000 while compensating universities for the difference those losses. We have established that the cost is not costs £1.1 billion.” £1.1 billion but £2 billion, and that £330 million of that That was his starting point. Well, the Department’s already comes from a set of measures that students will official costings show that his policy of bringing fees dislike. The shadow Secretary of State went on: down to £6,000 would cost £2 billion. That £2 billion is “£300 million comes from cancelling the Government’s planned currently going to our universities to pay for the education cut to the corporation tax on the banks”. 219 Higher and Further Education11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Higher and Further Education 220

[Mr Willetts] their loans. The idea that they will find themselves trapped in penal repayment terms when they are earning That is the next extraordinary device that he thinks will over £65,000 a year is complete fantasy. There is no help him save that money. Let us be clear: this Government £500 million. have introduced a bank levy to raise at least £2.5 billion I am, incidentally, offering the hon. Member for a year. That was set out by the Chancellor in the 2012 Birmingham, Ladywood a free briefing on her policy, Budget, to take account of the benefit to the banking and I hope she appreciates how helpful it is. I am trying system from additional reductions in corporation tax to explain it to her. In addition, if she were to move to on banks. In other words, we are already raising this anything like the commercial terms envisaged by the money; we are already collecting extra money from the Opposition, consumer credit legislation would come banks through the banking levy which is to offset the into force and she would find a whole host of new effect of lower corporation tax. There is no reduction in regulatory requirements placed on her scheme that it the taxation on banks that the Labour party could use would not be able to meet because of the design of the to pay for this policy; the banking levy is extracting that scheme that we inherited from the previous Government. funding. It would simply become unworkable. There is no If any Member of this House was be remorseless in £500 million to finance the Opposition’s proposal, and ensuring that every pound of revenue was extracted they have no way of financing fees of £6,000. from our banks to contribute to education and other purposes, it would be my right hon. Friend the Secretary Mr Thomas: Perhaps I can bring the Minister back to of State. We are already extracting a large amount of the Government’s own policy—or lack of it. Perhaps he money from the banks, and it is evidence of the bankruptcy will explain why it is fair for a student and their family of the Labour party’s thinking that when faced with any to be able probe the offer from a mainstream university problem or public expenditure challenge it keeps claiming using freedom of information legislation, but not that that it can meet the cost by taxing the banks. The of a commercial, for-profit university. evidence shows that the funding is simply not available to pay for it. Mr Willetts: It has come to a pretty pass when a loyal Reversing the VAT increase—£13.5 billion—is supposed Opposition Back Bencher has to help those on the to be met by taxing the banks. The Opposition have Front Bench by diverting attention from his party’s own called for more capital spending—£5.9 billion—which policies, but that is what it has come to. The fact is that will supposedly be met by taxing the banks. Reversing there is a black hole in the Opposition’s accounts, and the child benefit savings of £2.5 billion will apparently we need to know whether they will cut £2 billion from be met by taxing the banks. Reversing tax credit savings— resources that are now going to our universities. How £5.5 billion—will be met by taxing the banks. They are they are going to provide an extra £2 billion that is want more regional growth funding, and now we learn financed properly and honestly, and not by the slick their plans for universities as well. There is simply no accounting tricks used in the only attempt that they way in which taxing the banks will solve the gaping have so far made to explain their policy? black hole in the Opposition’s financial proposals, and we will not let them get away with it. George Freeman: The Minister is famously well read, George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con): Will the Minister and I wonder whether he saw the comments made by give way? Lord Mandelson in his paperback autobiography. He said that when he launched the Browne review in November 2009, he Mr Willetts: Let me continue to make progress. “assumed, as the Treasury did, that the outcome would have to The final item, and the biggest on the shadow Secretary include a significant increase in tuition fees. I felt that they would of State’s list, is in some ways the most curious. Some certainly have to double.” £500 million is to come from the top 10% of graduates. Is not the truth that dare not speak its name on the I quote the shadow Secretary of State, who wishes to Opposition Front Bench that the Labour party would ask have doubled fees had it stayed in power? “graduates earning over £65,000 in each year of their working life—to pay more through a combination of a higher interest rate…and to continue to pay for an additional two years.” Mr Willetts: I do recall that vivid and frank admission That is £65,000 in each year of their working life. The from the former Secretary of State. shadow Secretary of State is possibly the only person in The final irony of the Labour party’s proposals is the Chamber who could have imagined earning £60,000 that it is not at all clear what purpose they achieve. Let a year in each year of his working life. The idea that a us be clear: there is nothing in those proposals for levy on people earning £60,000 in each year of their students who are currently at university, there are only working life could raise £500 million is absolutely risks. There are risks of having less money to pay for the incomprehensible. Does the Labour party perhaps mean student’s higher education, and, as we have seen, of less that when someone’s earnings eventually reach £65,000, money for their bursaries. There seems to be no proposal they will be charged a higher rate or be charged to change the repayment terms of the scheme—9% on retrospectively? Again, however, there is no way in earnings above £21,000—and there is no reduction in which such a measure could raise anything like £500 million, the monthly repayments that graduates pay. There is, not least because in a free and voluntary system in therefore, nothing in those proposals for people in their which we have—quite correctly—protected the right of 20s or 30s; it will simply mean that they end their people to make early repayments of their loan, people repayment period a bit earlier than they would otherwise whose earnings are heading that way will simply repay have done. There is absolutely nothing for recent graduates. 221 Higher and Further Education11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Higher and Further Education 222

Therefore, there is nothing for students, nothing for costs for students are expected to reach £11,000 this recent graduates because monthly repayments are not year, which is £910 a month—the cost was £561 a reduced, and there is no help for the poorest graduates, month in 2004. With fees, that amounts to around the one third who are better off under our scheme £20,000 per year. That is too much money for young because we fully accept that they will not be able to people to carry as personal debt. Of itself, it is unjust. repay the full amount under the current scheme. The Other things in life require debt in early adulthood: a Opposition managed to spend £2 billion of money that starter home and the accompanying mortgage, or perhaps they do not have, with no help for students, no help for a loan to set up a small business as a new entrepreneur. recent graduates, and no help for the poorest graduates. Any lender will take the student debt into account when That is an extraordinary achievement. looking at the potential for repayment. The 30-year I do not know which bit of the policy-making process repayment period means that debt follows the young produced this proposal, but the Opposition really need person well into middle age. to do better. Just possibly, the Leader of the Opposition The Government’s new regime has brought about a recognises that problem. In September last year he was rather obvious response. Before the introduction of the asked on the “Andrew Marr show” about his policy, new regime there was a burst of applications, but this and about the status of the commitment to £6,000 and year university applications are down by 8.7%. The whether it was a policy that the Labour party would situation is particularly pronounced in the north-east, take into the next election. He said: which I have the honour to represent—applications are “The status is that it’s something that we would do now, that down by 11.2%—and among the poor. it’s something we’re committed to. But the manifesto’s three and a half years away. We’ll announce the manifesto”. The Office for Fair Access tells us that despite substantially larger bursaries at Cambridge than at It does not even look as if the Leader of the Opposition Northumbria university, Northumbria’s proportion of believes that that policy will ever make it into the students from poor backgrounds is around four times Labour manifesto, and after what we have understood higher than Cambridge’s proportion. That, too, is unjust. about it in today’s debate, I am not at all surprised. Young people are having the opportunity to be everything they could be priced away from them. 8.18 pm Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): Will the Mr Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne East) (Lab): right hon. Gentleman give way? It is a pleasure to follow the Minister. He entertained the House enormously as he distracted attention from Mr Brown: I shall willingly give way to the right hon. the core point of the Government’s policy and did his Gentleman, who also represents our region. best to misrepresent the Opposition’s policy, so much so that he chided my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Sir Alan Beith: The right hon. Gentleman and I share Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood) for trying to draw his an interest in Northumbria university, where there are attention back to the Government policy he is supposed a large number of part-time students. Under the to be defending. If that is the most terrible charge the Government’s scheme, they will be given access to Minister can make against my hon. Friend, surely his repayment facilities that they did not have before. case is weak. Before coming to my core concern—the level of student Mr Brown: I accept that. I am sympathetic to features debt—I should congratulate my hon. Friend on how of the Government’s scheme, and we would find agreement she opened the debate for the parliamentary Labour and consensus on other aspects, including those to party. It is a pleasure to follow her, just as it is a pleasure which the Minister referred. My objection is to the total to follow the Minister. He did his best to distract attention debt. My contention is that £20,000 a year is just too from his policy and to misrepresent the Opposition’s much money for a young person to take on. The right policy. At one stage I thought he was praising—almost hon. Gentleman knows that there will be a similar sincerely—the Secretary of State; next he will be writing feeling among his constituents, who are no more affluent “Focus”leaflets to deliver around the House of Commons. than people in the community I represent. I have too much respect for the Minister to encourage For those trying to get into higher education, the him to go down that sad and sordid road. situation is exacerbated by the loss of something like My key point is this: my objection to the student fee 15,000 student places—that is the only election pledge contribution arrangements being introduced in this that the Liberal Democrats have actually kept. Young academic year is that the required student contribution people from economically poorer backgrounds look is too high. It is as straightforward as that. I am not instead at going directly into employment and making quarrelling with the Minister over the repayment their way without a degree and the accompanying mechanism: he is right that there are common themes mandatory debt. Even if they do so, the cards are between the Labour party and Conservative party positions, stacked against them, because graduate entry is now but whatever the arguments about establishing competition much more of a requirement for careers that used to be and a marketplace through different student fee open to non-graduates. contributions might have been in theory, the fact of the The argument for the fee contribution is that graduates, matter is that the annual student fee contribution for over a lifetime, will earn more than non-graduates, and most courses has remorselessly settled already at the so should make a contribution to their education costs. ceiling of £9,000 a year. I accept that, but the argument is about how much of a To that we must add the cost of student maintenance, contribution they should make. Not all graduates will including rent, and the cost of necessary books, equipment find well-paid jobs. Graduate recruitment is currently and visits associated with the course. Annual living running at 6% below pre-recession levels, if we take the 223 Higher and Further Education11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Higher and Further Education 224

[Mr Nicholas Brown] Then as now, however, the issue of tuition fees was politically linked to what Ministers then and now have high point of 2007, and for every graduate job advertised chosen to call “access to universities”. Then and now, there is an average of 52 applications. One in five my question, which arises naturally from the question graduates is unemployed. of access, is about maintaining the highest possible The remedy seems clear enough: we should cap the academic standards in universities. fee contribution. The Labour party has pledged to set a Like many others, I believe that the achievement of cap at £6,000, and to go further in reducing the cap if those high standards, which is in our national interest, the reduction is affordable. I say that we should go depends on admissions to university being strictly on further and we should face up to the fact that it must be merit and admitting those whom the universities judge paid for. to be of the highest merit. The universities themselves The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and are best placed to make that judgment. That the principle Skills has very little room for manoeuvre in his departmental of university autonomy over admissions ought to be budget. To achieve his share of the cuts, he has shifted cherished is a clear conclusion to be drawn from a costs from the state to the students in higher education conservative view of the world. It would be anathema and abolished the regional development agencies, which to somebody who really believed in a free society to were the principal regional economic development arm. contemplate with equanimity the prospect of state His Department has cut university teaching budgets by interference, whether directly or indirectly through a 47% in real terms, from £7.1 billion to £4.2 billion. quango, in university admissions. Combined with the increased subsidy element of student loans, that results in a real-terms cut in higher education Mr Brian Binley (Northampton South) (Con) rose— funding, excluding research, of 23%, from £8.8 billion to £7.5 billion by 2015. Mr Clappison: I will give way to my hon. Friend, because I get an extra minute if I do so. Dr Wendy Piatt, the director general of the Russell group, warned today that the UK has fallen behind Mr Binley: Does my hon. Friend realise that the new countries such as Mexico, Russia and India in investment director of OFFA reportedly said that he wants the in higher education as a proportion of gross domestic Russell group universities to admit one student from a product. poor background for every student accepted from a We must look outside the Secretary of State’s Department wealthy background? Does that mean means-testing to find the savings dramatically to reduce the cap on becoming part of the admissions process, thus excluding student fees. The renewal of Britain’s independent nuclear some students for reasons other than academic ones, deterrent and a new generation of Trident submarines and does it suggest that our worst fears about this new are unaffordable and unnecessary public expenditure, appointment are coming to fruition? not the higher education of our nation’s young people— [Interruption.] To respond to the Minister, at least I can Mr Clappison: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his say how I would pay for it. intervention. I have written to the Minister about this, The coalition Government have made a different and I look forward to hearing his interpretation of the choice. They have diminished the importance of higher remarks of the distinguished gentlemen placed in charge education, and in that, they are wrong. of OFFA. I hope that the Minister will answer that in his winding-up speech. Several hon. Members rose— Ministers claim to be interested in encouraging applications but not in interfering with or influencing Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. James admissions, yet Governments send out directives to Clappison will be the last hon. Member to have a OFFA telling them how to set access agreements and seven-minute limit. After him, I will reduce the limit to giving them clear political steers. How can we see it as six minutes. anything other than political interference when Ministers send guidance to OFFAenjoining it to implement Ministers’ 8.27 pm wishes, as happened under the previous Government Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con): Thank you, and is happening under this one? In a directive last year, Mr Deputy Speaker—I hope I will not take that long. the Government told OFFA to send the following message It is always a great pleasure to follow the right hon. to universities: Member for Newcastle upon Tyne East (Mr Brown), “Through this letter we want to encourage you and the higher who is a great champion of the north-east. Both he and education sector to focus more sharply on the outcomes of the hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana outreach and other access activities rather than the inputs and processes”. Mahmood), who spoke for the Opposition, made some perfectly proper points about tuition fees in principle. To what, other than admissions, could “outcomes” Her points were answered comprehensively from the possibly refer? They are the only way that outcomes can Government Front Bench by the right hon. Member for be defined and measured. How can that not affect Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson) universities, given that OFFA has swingeing powers to when he took the Labour Government’s tuition fees Bill take away their income if they do not comply with its through the House in 2003. I had the pleasure of injunctions? serving on that Bill Committee. The same points arose How can we say that universities have complete freedom then, but with one significant distinction: the Labour over admissions when they have this apparatus hanging Government’s increase in tuition fees was introduced at over them? How can they not be influenced, given that a time when the public finances were in a completely they face swingeing fines and their fee income being different position to the one they are in today. withheld if they do not comply with OFFA’s targets? 225 Higher and Further Education11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Higher and Further Education 226

Mr Andrew Smith: Will the hon. Gentleman give revenues they have from higher fees. It is absolutely way? right to say to OFFA that we want it to scrutinise the effectiveness of all that spending. Some of it goes on Mr Clappison: I will later, if I have time. I think I have summer schools and some of it goes on outreach visits used up my extra minutes already, although I know that to secondary schools, and there are also foundation-year the right hon. Gentleman is very interested in this programmes. Indeed, there is a whole range of things. subject. When we are talking about expenditure on such a scale, Although I disagree with OFFA in principle, I pay it is rather important to ask OFFA to work out what tribute to its outgoing head, Sir Martin Harris, who is a works and what does not. That is a legitimate question man of great academic distinction. That brings me to when substantial sums of money are involved. the question of his successor. As my hon. Friend the Member for Northampton South (Mr Binley) touched Mr Clappison: I would be grateful if my right hon. on, the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee expressed Friend could therefore clarify—perhaps I will leave it to concerns that led it to withhold approval for his the wind-up, because I am intervening in my own appointment. I share these concerns and, as a speech now—what else “outcomes” can mean other parliamentarian, take little pleasure in seeing a Select than admissions. That is the only way one can look at it Committee’s view being completely ignored, but I wish in this context. My right hon. Friend’s advice was to go Professor Ebdon well, will take a close interest in his beyond applications and look at outcomes, and outcomes work and will endeavour to help in any way I can. His in this context can mean only admissions. If there is recent interview with The Daily Telegraph, however, has another meaning, I look forward to him clarifying that, attracted much comment. [Interruption.] I can see the but as I see it, the position is that OFFA’s original Minister in a leaping position, as though he wants to activities were given a “sharper focus”, as the advice to leap into the debate. I will certainly give way, if he OFFA from the present Government puts it. I shall be wishes intervene. taking a great interest in this matter. I am also particularly interested in what Professor Mr Willetts: I look forward to continuing these exchanges Ebdon has said—perhaps the Minister would care to in a variety of ways, but let me assure my hon. Friend deal with this in the wind-up as well—about what he that the most recent advice that I and my right hon. describes as the “most selective universities” in terms of Friend the Secretary of State have sent to OFFA makes admissions. He said: it clear to Les Ebdon, for whom I have the greatest “It would be wrong to underestimate the challenges they face.” respect, that he is to work within the framework of I think we should praise and celebrate our most selective agreed Government policy, as set out in the higher universities, including Oxford and Cambridge, not seek education White Paper. We explicitly set out in our to undermine them. My frame of reference is the fact letter that he has a duty to protect the ultimate right of that they are a great national asset. They are not doing higher education institutions to select their own students. anything wrong. If Ministers and Professor Les Ebdon That right of universities to choose their own students want something to look at, they should perhaps look at was put into law by the previous Government—possibly those universities that have an extremely high drop-out by the very Committee that he sat on—and is one that rate—not Oxford and Cambridge, or the other selective we will continue to respect and protect. universities—which is such a waste of public money and resources. Mr Clappison: That is like the small print of a contract. I have seen the advice to OFFA and what is said on its I hope that the Minister will be able to convince me in website. I do not know whether my right hon. Friend, his winding-up speech and answer the concerns that through that intervention, sought to withdraw the injunction have been raised. At the moment, I feel very much as given to OFFA last year—[Interruption]—the right though I am not helping to build the big society—which hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark is what I want to do—but recreating the Soviet Union, (Simon Hughes) is looking very interested—that universities because that is what this apparatus reminds me of. should focus more sharply on their outcomes, rather than simply on their inputs and activities in trying to 8.37 pm generate applications. The universities were given the clear message that there had to be a sharper focus on Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab): I am grateful targets. If my right hon. Friend the Minister is withdrawing for the opportunity to discuss these important issues. that, I would be pleased to hear it. Otherwise, what he Indeed, it is some time since the House had the opportunity has said remains the case, as it always has been, including to consider them. under the previous Labour Government—it has been Given that I preceded the Minister for Universities put in the small print as a longstop. and Science, it is probably right to begin by welcoming some of the moves he has made, particularly on student Mr Willetts rose— contact hours, which were a growing concern during our period in office, employment outcomes, the relevance Mr Clappison: That sharper focus was the clear message of which has become even more heightened, given the in the guidance. If my right hon. Friend is prepared to nature of the economy, and, importantly, ring-fencing withdraw that, I will happily give way to him. the science budget. However, this debate is important also because of where this country stands economically. Mr Willetts: Let me try to set out the position—this We are in a second recession in as many years. goes back to my comments about the Opposition’s Unemployment is at an all-time high among graduates policies. We are talking about universities having perhaps and is seriously worrying among non-graduates. Under £700 million of access spend, because of the extra the circumstances, one would expect university to be a 227 Higher and Further Education11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Higher and Further Education 228

[Mr David Lammy] of £42,000—in effect, the earnings of a postman and a nurse—and unable to get a grant, £9,000 is just too place where young people go to shelter and stay. Indeed, much. How are they to find that amount? That is the many of the debates that we are having in this House—and question on the table, but the Minister has not answered that we shall rightly continue to have—go to the heart it. Numbers are falling and we are losing our world-class of whether we can begin to see serious growth in our status. I am sorry to say that, on his watch, a world-class economies. We will not see that growth unless we have educational sector in this country is losing its way. university students coming out and getting jobs, and unless we can be convinced and reassured that our universities will remain world class. 8.43 pm However, as my hon. Friend the Member for Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con): It is a pleasure Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood) outlined to follow the right hon. Member for Tottenham in opening for the Opposition, the backdrop for higher (Mr Lammy), who made his case powerfully. Perhaps education is one of serious concerns and confusion he forgets, however, that during his time as a higher about core and margin and AAB, as well as confusion education Minister, a number of physics and chemistry in the lead-up to reaching the fee agreement. When I departments around the country were closed, not least pressed the Minister on when we would see the legislation at Reading university. We all need to look to our record that he promised almost two years ago, he was unable to on these matters. give us a date. Against that backdrop, universities are, quite rightly, hugely worried about their future. This is a The motion deals with tuition fees, but the real issue serious issue, and the Minister ought to have demonstrated for debate is social mobility and how we approach it more concern about the fact that students are turning through higher education. My view is that going to away from higher education in the way that they are. university must be about individual academic ability, The Minister will know that, before the Labour and not about where someone was born or about their Government came to power, there were parts of parents’ bank balance. No talented young person should Birmingham, Manchester, Cardiff and London in which be left behind because of their background. For many more young people were going to prison than were people, university is a way of unlocking their potential going to university. My constituency was one such area. and becoming socially mobile—essentially, bettering I am proud that, during our period in office, constituencies themselves and preparing themselves for a better life. Of such as mine saw the numbers of people going to course it is worth pointing out that university is definitely university quadruple, and that the number of young not the only route to success, and that many happy and people from right across the country going to the Russell successful careers are pursued by people who do not group universities trebled in that period. Participation have a university degree, but I want to focus today on rates were between 10% and 12% when I was going to higher education, rather than on further education, university in the late 1980s, but the Labour Government apprenticeships and all the other avenues that are available. achieved a rise in the rate to 43%, which represents a For those who are suited to university, regardless of 44% increase in the number of entrants. That is now their socio-economic background, sustainable funding being put in jeopardy, and that should be a matter of arrangements must be in place, coupled with a rigorous concern if we want to compete properly, to have a admissions process that is based on merit. The Labour growth economy and to see the kind of prospects for party’s rather shrill message this evening has been that our country over the next few years that we clearly need the new fees form a barrier to higher education. That, to see. however, is simply not the case. Leading experts in the Higher education contributes £59 billion a year to the field of higher education do not consider the new UK economy, making it a hugely important sector. tuition fees to have hit students, particularly students Many hon. Members who have raised the issue of from disadvantaged backgrounds, negatively. The unfair London Metropolitan university have voiced their serious and unworkable situation that Labour prophesied has concerns about Britain’s reputation. There might be an simply not come to pass. Labour needs to understand assumption that Britain is open for business, and that that fees are not the real barrier to higher education. we want to be world class and to be at the centre of I am pleased that the Opposition have raised this higher education in the world, but the message that the subject for debate this evening, but I am disappointed Government are repeatedly sending out is that none of that the motion fails to deal with the real threat to social those is the case. mobility that is stalking higher education. That threat is The Minister’s description of higher fees and of what to be found in our schools and their role in failing to he suspected took place under the Labour Government secure more admissions to top universities and therefore does not accord with my understanding of the situation. wider participation. The sad fact is that the poorer We certainly had absolutely no plans to strip out 80% of people are, the less likely they are to attend one of our the teaching budget. That this Government are doing so top universities. Figures from the Sutton Trust show is a scandal. There is no country in the civilised world that a comprehensive school pupil on free school meals that does not acknowledge the importance of the state’s is 55 times less likely to attend Oxbridge than those contribution to higher education. It is only this Government educated at an independent school. who have decided to withdraw entirely from that area. It We heard today that four of our universities are in the is no wonder that we have seen a drop in applications top six in the worldwide league tables, but if we are to for humanities and languages this year. ensure our continued pre-eminent position as a world-class That disastrous Government policy sits alongside the provider of higher education, with world-class institutions huge escalation in fees to £9,000—a trebling of the equipped with world-class reputations, we must have an figure. For an average family, with combined earnings admissions regime based on individual academic merit. 229 Higher and Further Education11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Higher and Further Education 230

Because social mobility is so important, I know that I do not disagree with the proposition that individual many hon. Members share my concern, as my hon. cases may well require context, but that is a matter for Friend the Member for Hertsmere (Mr Clappison) has the admission boards at universities, not for state made clear, about the comments of Professor Les Ebdon, interference, and the universities deal with it very well. the head of the Office for Fair Access. I have held The trouble is that Professor Ebdon appears to believe meetings with him and I am willing to give him fair that top universities are deliberately trying to exclude wind and every chance to prove himself in that role. poorer students, and that could not be further from the Last week, however, barely 72 hours into his new post, truth. In contrast to Professor Ebdon, I believe that we he suggested that, over time, our top universities should must change the context of this debate; and that means have one poor student for every candidate enlisted from driving up standards in state schools, much as the the top 20% of households. I would be grateful if the Secretary of State for Education is trying to do. Initiatives Minister clarified whether that is the Government’s such as the pupil premium, free schools and university understanding of OFFA’s role. Is it the Government’s technical colleges, among many others, make an enormous desire and expectation that that should happen? contribution. The solution to the problem of providing In many respects, this is a laudable aim, but it is fair access to university is not to be found through completely impossible for universities to deliver it on heavy-handed outside interference or pontification on their own through the many outreach and summer fees. It is to be found pre-university, in our state schools. schools and the foundation degrees that they invest in heavily. The implicit threat in Professor Ebdon’s approach 8.50 pm to fair access is that targets are to be forced on top Mr Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Lab/Co-op): universities— regardless of merit. His approach does I welcome the motion, and the opportunity to debate not seem overly concerned with removing the current the issues that it raises. barriers to opportunity, which would mean addressing the structural issues. Sadly, Professor Ebdon’s philosophy Much of what has been said in today’s debate should appears to be that of a social engineer, rather than one have been said 18 months or two years ago. The range to socially enable. He sees his role as “challenging” of problems that we are discussing now arose partly universities on admissions targets. because of the back-to-front way in which the Government have implemented education policy. We have seen the Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): Does the most profound change in our education system since hon. Gentleman not recognise the role, as prescribed by the war. The trebling of tuition fees, along with the cuts the Government, of the director of fair access? It is not in higher education funding, took place without adequate his responsibility to restructure the entire education consultation with all interested bodies, and without the system; it is his responsibility to challenge universities normal process involving a White Paper and subsequent on their contribution. legislation. The rest was supposed to come later. Yes, we did get the White Paper—about nine months later—and Mr Wilson: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his it listed a range of consultations that still needed to take contribution, which I will deal with if I have enough time. place. We were then promised a Bill, which has somehow evaporated, and as a result we are now having to deal I fear that Professor Ebdon’s comments on setting with a legacy of muddle and confusion, both in the “challenging” targets for our most selective universities minds of would-be students and in universities. show that he sees OFFA’s access agreements as a means of forcing institutions into accepting rigid quotas for In the short time available to me, I want to focus on university applicants. He has said that he is unafraid of the idea of widening participation. As a representative using the “nuclear” penalties option available to him of a black country constituency with a legacy of low through OFFA. Such action would tear this country’s income and low educational aspiration, I think that the higher education system apart. He is on record as policies that are now being implemented had the potential saying to his critics that to bring about profound consequences. The first and most obvious was that the headline raising of tuition “the reason I shouldn’t be appointed was if I got the job, I might actually do it”, fees, and the likely debt that would have to be paid off as a result, would disproportionately deter those from but I think we need to be clear about what that job entails. low-income families. That has still to be tested. Initial In my view—one shared by many of my colleagues— figures from UCAS indicate that although there has Professor Ebdon’s job is not to interfere with the university been a drop in the number of applications—the figure admissions process. He favours the deliberate lowering of 50,000 has been mentioned today—the percentage of of admissions criteria in order to increase the number applications among those with lower-income backgrounds of poorer students into elite universities. This is not the has not changed significantly. However, that fails to way to ensure that our top universities remain the best take a couple of factors into account. in the world or to help poorer students. It is, at best, a First, the cohort that is going to university now short-term fix. Instead, we need to enhance opportunity would have gone into the sixth form two years ago for students from disadvantaged backgrounds by improving under a different regime, and would have had university the state secondary education system across the board. aspirations at that time. We do not yet know whether We need to get more students up to the level necessary the cohorts of subsequent years will have the same for them to apply to our best universities, and when aspirations. Secondly, a worrying trend is beginning to they are, we need to ensure that they actually apply to be discerned among applicants. UCAS says that there is our top universities. no evidence that applicants are opting for their local— According to Professor Ebdon, sometimes cheaper—universities. In fact, considerable “Context has to be taken into account if you are going to evidence is emerging in the black country that applicants assess potential.” are opting for their local universities so that they can 231 Higher and Further Education11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Higher and Further Education 232

[Mr Adrian Bailey] areas are often those with the highest proportion of public-sector workers, who are most at risk, and most in study at home, although I do not know whether those need of support to acquire the skills to enable them to universities are cheaper. The local newspaper, the Express transfer from the public sector to the private sector, in and Star, rang a number of secondary schools, and furtherance of Government policy. This is an example some of the leading providers of university applicants— of disjointed government. People who will need to Wood Green in Wednesbury, Brownhills in Walsall and change jobs as a result of Government policy in one Wednesfield in Wolverhampton—said that the percentage area will have the support that they need to fulfil the of their students applying to go to their local universities Government’s objectives kicked away. The end product so that they could study at home had greatly increased. could well be that their lives are devastated, along with That is good news for Wolverhampton, but it has other the Government’s economic objectives. implications. I would like to discuss many other aspects of funding and the economics of this issue, but my great concern is Simon Hughes: The Chairman of the Business, supporting educational aspiration and fulfilment, and Innovation and Skills Committee is being very fair in the need to do that to benefit our economy. That will his analysis. All the evidence is that, because of cost of not be achieved under these proposals. living issues, if there is an equal choice of university, more students will want to go less far away in the future. We also ought to pay attention to the fact that there has 8.59 pm been a drop in the number of mature students applying Gordon Birtwistle (Burnley) (LD): Two and a half to universities. They are far more difficult to reach years ago, I arrived in this place and two years ago I was because they cannot be captured in the school context. introduced to the Browne report on the future funding That is a challenge in the west midlands, as in the rest of of universities, which had been asked for by the previous England. Labour Government. It was to be studied not only in itself, but when the country faced a catastrophic financial Mr Bailey: The right hon. Gentleman mentions a situation. I could not have agreed with the Browne number of issues that I wish I had sufficient time to report as it was, because having universities charging deliberate upon. The point I am making is that those unlimited sums was not acceptable to me. So I told the from lower-income backgrounds whose local university current Secretary of State that I could not agree with it is not one that higher-aspiration students might wish to and that he had to do something for the poorer families attend are suffering a disadvantage. A two-tier system in the country, particularly those in my constituency. may therefore be emerging. More lower-income students We then got the proposal that we have now, with the will want to stay at home regardless of the nature of change from an unlimited to a limited amount of money. their local university. I should stress that I think The Browne report, asked for by the Labour Government, Wolverhampton university is excellent, and I would was talking about making it unlimited. Now, not only recommend it to prospective students, but it may not be was the amount to be absolutely limited at £9,000, but the most appropriate institution for those seeking there would be national scholarships to help young professional and academic qualifications. Not only will people from families who did not have the funding to go such lower-income students be missing out on the broader to these places. That has happened quite a lot in Burnley; university experience of living away from home—although a lot of young people have gone on these special it is debatable how important that is—but they are less scholarships, getting their first year and, we hope, their likely to have a good home learning environment. second year free at the colleges. When I went back to the town to discuss the matter Mr Thomas: If there is an increase in the numbers with the young people there, I was astonished to hear wanting to stay at home and go to their local university, that they had been fed the story, particularly by the there is also the risk of distortions in respect of choice Labour party, that they would have to find the money of subject. In that context, has the hon. Gentleman seen up front—that the £21,000 would have to be paid before the comments of the languages professor at Southampton they turned up on the university doorstep. That was university who is worried about the lack of provision of parroted by the Labour party and in some of the press. languages courses in the east of England, with the sole exception of Cambridge? Paul Blomfield: The hon. Gentleman is making a serious claim against the Opposition. Will he say on Mr Bailey: My hon. Friend makes an important precisely what occasion anybody speaking on behalf of point. I have alluded to the lack of choice such students my party said that? would have. Their local university may well not offer the appropriate course for them to be able to optimise their Gordon Birtwistle: A number of members of the educational development. That is a further example of Labour party in Burnley were saying to the young potential disadvantage. people of Burnley, and convincing them, that they People from lower-income and lower-aspiration would have to find the money up front. That was backgrounds will also be disproportionately disadvantaged obviously not the case, so I told them that they would as a result of the further education loans measures. not have to pay the money up front, that the money They are more likely to have missed out on their original would be given to them up front and that no repayments educational experience. They are also more likely to be would have to be made until they were earning £21,000. in jobs where they need to upskill, so they will have They then asked how much they would have to pay greater need of support to study for enhanced qualifications. when they were earning £22,000, which is a gross salary The Government are seeking to shrink the public sector of £1,850 a month. When they are on that income, their in order to benefit the private sector, and the lowest-income repayment to the taxpayer for funding their education 233 Higher and Further Education11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Higher and Further Education 234 at university will be £8 a month. When I asked them Young people will be able to leave secondary school whether they would mind paying back £8 a month if at 14 and be trained at the colleges for a real job, doing they had a salary of £1,850 they said, “Of course not. subjects into which the businesses in the area will have We understood that it would be lots more than that.” I input. Those companies are now involved with the then asked them to assume that they were on a salary of university technical colleges, which are delivering young £25,000”, which is a substantial salary in Burnley, and people into the jobs that this country needs. We are so would be collecting more than £2,000 a month. desperate for engineers and scientists, whereas there are When I asked whether they would then object to paying more people with law degrees stacking shelves in £30 a month back to the taxpayer who had funded their supermarkets than doing anything else. We need to start education at university I was again told, “Well of course making things and training people to do the jobs of the not, but that is not what we have been told. That is not future and that is what the university technical colleges the understanding that we have. So we are happy to do will do with young people. If we take the colleges, it.” I even got the student union rep at the university of together with the apprenticeships and the young people central Lancashire to say, “That is far better than what who go to university, we have a good deal. we have now.” The young people of Burnley are getting I do not see the arguments against our approach and a better deal now than what they had before, and that what I have heard from the Minister tonight suggests convinced me to support the proposals in the Bill. that the funding system proposed by the Opposition is I also compared the number of students who go to equal to the previous funding system, which has bankrupted university with the total number of students who leave the country. I do not want to go back to those days. I school. About 40% go to university, which means that want real jobs, for real young people studying at university, 60% do not. So I looked at the prospects for those and the delivery of everything else that goes with that. young people who do not go to university—I am thinking of the apprenticeship scheme. I was an apprentice engineer 9.8 pm in 1958. Over the past 25 years, various Governments, particularly the last one, took the decision to destroy Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab): I wanted to apprenticeships. They said that they did not need speak in the debate because I feel very strongly about apprenticeships, that they would pray and bow to the this issue. I have listened to several debates on tuition City and the finance sector, so never mind the fees and was a member of the relevant Bill Committee manufacturing sector—let it go. The Indians and Chinese in 2010, so I have heard the Government’s arguments a could do the manufacturing and we would just make number of times and have heard them again today. I did money out of the finance sector. We all saw what not accept them then and do not accept them now. happened to the finance sector: it caught a cold and we I remember being lobbied by some young people all got pneumonia. from my constituency at the time of the vote on tuition We have to support manufacturing, so the Government fees in 2010 and being joined by one brave Tory MP. I have invested in 800,000 young people who are now must say that there were not many Lib Dems around at apprentices. Many of them are going to university but the time, but some Tories came out and argued their are being funded by the companies that they work for, case. That MP said he had concerns that people who which means that they are getting degrees and have a had not had the advantage of a university education job, but do not have any debt. That is the kind of were being asked to pay for the education of others who forward thinking that the Government should demonstrate would not only get a good education but benefit financially and that is what we have had. from better earnings. He felt that that was not fair and I accept that argument, but I recall one young person coming back quickly and, taking that argument to its Mr Lammy: I welcome what the hon. Gentleman has natural conclusion, asking why we ask well people to said about apprenticeships, but does he share my concern pay for the NHS and the sick and why we ask single that we have too many apprenticeships that are for less people without children or childless couples to pay for than six months and many apprenticeships in parts of the education of other people’s children—an argument retail that are not like the apprenticeships he described, I think we all recognise. As a community, we all contribute such as the one he went on? to the education of other people’s children because ultimately we all benefit from a better educated and Gordon Birtwistle: I have some sympathy with that skilled work force that makes this country richer. For comment, because I believe that apprenticeships should me, it is simple: I believe that paying taxes to educate be for a real job and I agree that young people should our young people is not a waste of money but an not be taken on on short-term contracts and called investment for the future of not just the young people apprentices. I have met many young people in Burnley themselves but of all of us who benefit from an educated, who are on real apprenticeships in engineering, distribution, knowledge-rich, competitive society that leads to an motor mechanics and so on and they are doing very entrepreneurial economy. well out of it. We do not have a lot of time, but in the time I have I I also want to comment on the £350 million that the want to talk a little about what is happening in further Government are putting in to university technical colleges. education now. I sat this morning in the Education Technical colleges are another thing of the past—people Committee, as did colleagues on the Government Benches, who did not go to grammar school but to the secondary listening to evidence on the GCSE English language modern school could manage to get to a technical fiasco this year. I thought I understood what had happened. college halfway through. Technical colleges trained people I thought that there was some leniency in marking in to go and do a job in industry, but we gave up on them January, so that there had to be some bringing into line in the 1960s. They are now coming back and we will of the marking in June. But that was not what happened. have 32 university technical colleges. I was pretty stunned by what I heard. 235 Higher and Further Education11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Higher and Further Education 236

[Pat Glass] October. I have also talked to people working in this establishment for Members of Parliament. Those who It appears that under Ofqual’s policy of comparable went to university under the old system say that they standards, whereby whatever the cohort got at key wish that they had studied under the system that is stage 2 they have to get at key stage 4, irrespective of going to start now. They would far rather not have had better teaching or improvements in learning— to ask their parents to help them pay the money up front. They would rather pay it themselves. It is much Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. better for people from poorer backgrounds to be able to pay so that their parents do not have to contribute. It is Pat Glass: I am going on to talk about further education. better that they do not feel under pressure to ask their parents to pay, because they cannot afford it. Mr Deputy Speaker: Well, will you get on to it please? The students who will be going through now will earn more than many people in this country. When I ask Pat Glass: Okay. young people whether they think it is fair that the As a result, young people who should have been caretaker or dinner lady in their school has to pay for enrolling on level 3 courses in FE are now enrolling on their education, even though they will never earn as level 2 courses, and many more are simply disappearing much as the young people, I find that the young people from the system. This will have an impact on our understand that it is much better that they pay back to number of people not in education, employment or the taxpayer, who is funding their education in the first training. It is not just that there was some rigorous place. marking in June; but there has been clawback, as the pupils in June are compensating for over-lenient marking Mel Stride (Central Devon) (Con): My hon. Friend in January. I think it goes against the principle of makes a powerful point. Does she agree that one of the natural justice that one group of young people is doubly benefits of a loans system is that those going to university punished for what happened with others. are far more discerning in their choice, which makes The young people are I am talking about are C-D universities work much harder to secure those students borderline pupils. There are not many such pupils in and, therefore, drives up standards? grammar schools or independent schools. These are kids from comprehensive schools from less well-off homes. These are the kids from whom the Government Pauline Latham: My hon. Friend makes a powerful have already taken the education maintenance allowance. point. My children used to come back from university They are the kids who can least afford to have a kick in with some horrific tales about the sort of education the teeth like this. It simply illustrates the fact that the they were getting. I believe that once students become Government’s education policy from higher education customers the universities will have to sharpen up their to further education and right through to the key stages act, which they are already doing, and in many cases in schools is chaotic; it is damaging our children and they are providing a better education for the students ultimately it will damage our economy. now going through the system. I am pleased to report that none of the people I have spoken with has a problem. Not one person I have 9.12 pm spoken with has said that they are not going to university. Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con): I am pleased Some might decide to choose apprenticeships, which to follow the hon. Member for North West Durham my hon. Friend the Member for Burnley mentioned. I (Pat Glass), who did not seem to touch on tuition fees at am delighted that we have so many opportunities for all. apprenticeships in this country and surprised that no Opposition Members mentioned them whatsoever, because Tristram Hunt: She talked about further education. they are opening up opportunities and we need more people in engineering. We have lots of apprenticeships Pauline Latham: But we are talking about tuition in Derbyshire, particularly in Derby, and some really fees. high-quality apprenticeships in Rolls-Royce, Bombardier and Toyota. We need all those people, because they are I am delighted to follow my hon. Friend the Member the income generators of the future. for Burnley (Gordon Birtwistle), who raised all the issues that I want to talk about. He has studied what The hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana has been going on and he cares about it. I am pleased Mahmood) said that tuition fees will put off mature that young people at last understand what the tuition students. Well, the interesting statistic from Derby university, fees are all about. All the demonstrations in London which is in my constituency, is that 52% of the student and elsewhere took place because students had been intake are under 21 and 47% are over 21 and mature misled by the Labour party, the National Union of students. It is also interesting to note that 46% of them Students and the media, who were determined to make are male and 54% are female, and it is extremely good them realise that they would have to pay the fees up that more women than men are going to Derby university, front. They have never had to pay up front and they because that did not used to be the case. never will have to. They have to start paying after they I am pleased to report that in Mid Derbyshire we earn over £21,000. have a thriving university that has come up through the I have spent quite a lot of time talking to young ranks. People used to write it off, but it is doing incredibly people in my constituency—some who have been through well, under the leadership of Professor John Coyne. It is university and finished, under the old system introduced providing world-class graduates, many of whom work by Labour, and some who are going to university this in local industries and businesses because they liked 237 Higher and Further Education11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Higher and Further Education 238 what they saw when they came to live in Derby. I am Gordon Birtwistle: What would the debt be under a very pleased about that, because they contribute a huge cap of £6,000? Does the hon. Gentleman have many amount to our economy. students in his constituency who, with a salary of £1,850 I am sure that many Opposition Members will have a month, would object to paying back £8 a month? seen, before and during the Olympics, the wonderful ceramic flower garden on Cromwell Green, which was Tristram Hunt: I am happy to have taken that the work of a fantastic artist called Paul Cummins, a intervention, which allows me to say that the debt graduate of Derby university. He has special needs, would be less because we would be charging £6,000 as a went through Derby university and has thrived as a cap rather than £9,000. result, because he was nurtured there. We need to encourage more students from all backgrounds to go to university. I am pleased to report that Derby university is doing Pauline Latham rose— better than ever and is not having the problems in attracting students that universities in some Opposition Tristram Hunt: I will not take any more interventions Members’ constituents are clearly having. because I want to allow colleagues to speak. The difference between the two parties that we must When the cost of providing a world-class education is recognise is that we like to talk up our education and already so high, why on earth would the Government the opportunities for young people, whereas the Labour have as their priority the slashing of 80% from the party seems to want to undermine the university teaching budget? That miscalculation led to the nonsensical opportunities that this Government have given students. “core and margin” proposals, which, in effect, incentivise I am very disappointed about that, because we all need students to take up cheaper courses, with poorer students world-class graduates who will contribute to our economy. often taking up poorer courses. As my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey) suggested, that will mean local people going to local universities 9.19 pm which do not always supply the kind of education that they want but to which they are driven by price structures. Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab): First, I declare an interest as a lecturer at Queen Mary university What is more, we know that this policy is really going of London. I therefore know something about the to bite in the middle-ranking universities just below the university system first hand and from the inside; I am Russell group which are charging £9,000 a year. We not sure that the hon. Member for Mid Derbyshire have already heard about the difficulties that Southampton (Pauline Latham) does. university is facing. These universities are complaining about the implications of the policy. They are also Over the past year, the number of young people out complaining about what is happening in university entrance of work for 12 months or more has reached its highest departments as regards the AAB marks. The last-minute level since July 1997. Over the past year, youth upgrades are playing havoc with course planning. Perhaps unemployment in my constituency has risen by almost the Government’s strategy is for a little bit of creative 300%. Alongside their disastrous economic policy, that destruction in the public services; perhaps they want a inability to get a grip on youth unemployment is one of few universities to go bust. If the Minister can be honest the defining stories of this increasingly discredited, about his policy, we would like to hear that from the hapless Government. That is why this debate is so Dispatch Box. important. If we are going to pay our way in the world, as the Chancellor likes to say, and deliver the right jobs In the past, Ministers have poured scorn on those of to rebuild our economy, we desperately need a skilled us who warned that such fees would deter students. and well-educated work force. As my right hon. Friend Well, now the numbers are in. History applications are the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne East (Mr Brown) down by 7%, design applications are down by 16%, and said, graduate employment is vital in the global marketplace, non-European language applications are down by 21%. and no Labour Member can see how on earth Government I am interested to hear how this Government, who hope policy is going to deliver that. we will export to the BRIC economies of Brazil, Russia, India and China and make our way in the world, can When one speaks to vice-chancellors and students, think that non-European language applications being they say that they see a Government who fail to value down by 21% is in any way a good economic strategy higher education; who put cart before horse by introducing for this country. tuition fees with no proper strategy for the sector, given that we have yet to see a White Paper on it; who fail to Staffordshire university in my constituency has take on the Home Office over immigration, casting experienced a drop of 12%, while nearby Keele university ridicule on our university sector right around the world; is taking over 1,000 fewer students this year. Overall, and who cut investment when every other competitor is the number of students accepted on to higher education looking to support learning and education. courses last year fell by over 30,000. With student In a more sympathetic previous life, the Minister for numbers falling by far less in Northern Ireland, Wales Universities and Science wrote a book on the plight of and Scotland, one does not need a degree, even from the young people today—“generation crunch”, as he called university of Winchester, to work out what is deterring them. We thought it was a critique; in fact, it was a them. We heard about a fall of 14% in applications from recipe for policies. He then introduced one of the most Northern Ireland to institutions in Great Britain. That expensive tuition fee systems in the western world, is the reality of what is happening as a result of this policy. where student debts of £30,000 to £40,000 in places On the question of having different fees in different such as Derby will become the norm. In our view, this nations of the United Kingdom, I cannot think of a level is simply too high. more sure-fire way to break up the Union than differentials 239 Higher and Further Education11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Higher and Further Education 240

[Tristram Hunt] My hon. Friend the Member for Mid Derbyshire (Pauline Latham) made a valuable point that we need to of the kind that we are seeing. This is not the Government’s empower students who are paying tuition fees to become particular problem, but by increasing the cap to £9,000 more like consumers, because we are going to make they are, as used to be said, accelerating the contradiction. universities display statistics and information relating It is clear that the Opposition policy is correct. It is to their courses, the contact time available, the employability right that we should use corporation tax to lower tuition ratios, which are essential if students are going to make fees, and it is right that we should ask those who earn informed decisions, and student evaluation surveys, which £65,000-plus to make a larger contribution. I certainly would have enjoyed completing following my time at university. While we are discussing higher education, let me say something, briefly, about the controversy at London I want to reflect briefly on my time at university. I was Metropolitan university. To be frank, I am amazed that one of 350 students who went to Oxford Brookes university the Minister and the Business, Innovation and Skills and studied business with a mind to set up a business, team have allowed the Home Office cack-handedly to but I was the only one who actually went on to run one. undermine one of our most successful global industries. With hindsight I would question whether it was beneficial The actions of the UK Border Agency have reverberated for me to spend four years doing that, because we did around the world and our competitors in America, not learn very much about setting up a business. Actually, Australia and Canada are delighted at what has happened. they managed to teach 349 people out of taking the risk I recently returned from a trip to New Delhi, where the of doing so, whereas we certainly need more people to Indian authorities cannot understand why we are seeking make that step up. to shoot one of our most successful industries in the The cost of tuition fees is also important when it foot. What London Metropolitan university has done comes to making informed decisions. My hon. Friend wrong needs to be addressed, but that will not be the Member for Burnley (Gordon Birtwistle) set out achieved by punishing those who are studying. clearly the challenges and confusions that potential Our competitors around the world recognise that students face. The system is complex. Recent research investing in higher education and lifelong learning and by the Sutton Trust and Universities UK shows that less widening the skills base are the route to a more prosperous than a third of prospective students fully understand future, but, as colleagues have pointed out, we are one how they will pay for their education. Just as worryingly, of the only countries in the OECD that is not currently more than half of parents believe that they have not increasing spending on higher education. Instead we received enough information, and a third say that they are making an 80% cut to teaching budgets. It seems little or no understanding. That concern is shared by perverse that countries such as Mexico, Russia and 95% of vice-chancellors. India, above all, are succeeding when we are choosing One strand of the work of the all-party parliamentary to undermine one of our most successful global industries. group on financial education for young people, which I The Government have got this totally wrong. chair, relates to higher education. We were delighted that Martin Lewis of MoneySavingExpert was keen to Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. The support that work. He did not comment on whether time limit for speeches is five minutes and I advise tuition fees were good or bad, but was just determined Members that any interventions will eat into the time to set out clear information. On behalf of our group, he left for the last contributor. approached Ministers, who empowered him to set up the studentfinance2012.com website, which set out to 9.26 pm educate prospective students and their parents through leaflets, videos and online calculators. He busts some of Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con): I will try to the myths with his ten points: make a whistle-stop speech covering just two aspects “You don’t need cash to pay for uni”, that allow potential students to make informed decisions, the first being career options and the second the cost of “There are no debt collectors”, tuition fees. “Earn under £21,000 and repay nothing”, One of the things that all parties have done over the “After 30 years the debt is wiped”, past 10 to 15 years is desperately chase the target of “Repayments will be £470 a year less than before”, getting 50% of young people into higher education. I “Repay the same per month at £6,000 or £9,000”, have to say that sometimes I question whether that was the right target, in part because it created such a stigma “You will owe longer and may pay more”, for those who did not choose to go into higher education. “Loans and grants for living costs are given too”, There are alternatives, and I welcome the increase in the “For many £9,000 doesn’t cost more than £6,000”, high-level apprenticeships and in apprenticeships in and finally, general, the options to consider work-based learning and the Government’s decision to invest £350 million in “Paying fees upfront could be a big mistake”. university technical colleges, from which my constituency That is the sort of information that is needed so that is determined to benefit. people can make an informed decision about what is the I have also been doing a lot of work, both in my best option for their career and what is their best option constituency and by making speeches in Parliament, on financially. encouraging more young people to consider becoming I congratulate the Government on listening and making young entrepreneurs. Over the past six months, 759 start-up the change to allow graduates who are fortunate enough businesses have started in Swindon and some of them to get a good graduate job to make early repayments have involved young people. and not be locked in to costly repayment costs. 241 Higher and Further Education11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Higher and Further Education 242

Finally, we all have a duty to help young people to off to the lowest bidder does not help students; it simply make an informed decision, regardless of which system reduces the student loan obligations to the Treasury. they face. Indeed, it has damaged the position of many students, as universities were encouraged to scrap bursaries to 9.31 pm fund fee cuts and create competition for places. The debate is about not just the sector’s problems but Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): I have the the unfairness caused to students who can least afford privilege of representing both of Sheffield’s great universities. it. The problem at the heart of the Government is that Both are strong in their own parts of the sector, extremely the Prime Minister just does not get it. Echoing the popular and important to the local economy, and both comments made by the hon. Member for Mid Derbyshire are facing falling applications as a result of this (Pauline Latham), I recall that at the height of the Government’s policies. That is no surprise, because it is debate on trebling fees, the Prime Minister tried to in line with the national trend. The deeper concern in defend his policy during a factory visit by asking workers: the sector, as I have learnt from talking to vice-chancellors “Do you think it is right that your taxes are going to educate over the past year, is not so much about the applications my children and your boss’s children?” but about the conversion rate. We are now seeing their It clearly had not crossed his mind that those factory fears realised. As the final figures are beginning to workers might have children who wanted to go to emerge, it is clear, as has been pointed out, that the rate university, had the talent to do so and deserved support. of people dropping out of the process after submitting applications is now much higher at 16%. The damage that the Government’s policies are doing to social mobility is not just at undergraduate level. It does not have to be like this, because politics is There is deep concern in our universities that the transition about choice. The Government are clearly making the from undergraduate courses to postgraduate taught wrong choices. Earlier in the debate, the Minister for courses will be affected by higher fees. The Browne Universities and Science, on the back foot, simply blamed review did not consider the issue, but many professions austerity. Were he here now, I would remind him of his now require a taught master’s qualification and others statement to the House in November 2010. In response expect it. If that route is closed to those who cannot to questions, he made it clear that the Government’s afford to add to their debt, we will have taken an response to the Browne review was only partly driven enormous step backwards. by the need to deliver cuts, and was more about “delivering reform” and “remodelling” the sector. Indeed it was: it The Government’s higher education policy is deeply was about transferring the cost of teaching from the damaging to our universities and deeply unfair to students, state to students, ending the previous position whereby so I hope that the House will support the motion. that responsibility was shared, and making our system one of the most expensive in the world, with fees higher 9.36 pm than most universities in the United States. Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op): My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): Will my hon. Blomfield) is spot-on about the effect of such high Friend give way? tuition fees on those wanting to apply for postgraduate courses. Like him, I want to focus on one particular Paul Blomfield: I am sorry, but I will not because issue, which is clearly linked to the Government’s plans of time. for higher education and their policy of £9,000 tuition The Government’s response was about withdrawing fees, but which has not been given such a high profile in all public funding for teaching from the majority of the debate so far. courses in the majority of universities, making the As others have mentioned, Ministers wanted students statement that arts, humanities and social science courses to consider degrees costing less than £9,000, to reduce do not deserve public support. the Treasury’s exposure to student debt. What has not I am also sorry that the right hon. Member for been highlighted in the debate is Ministers’plan significantly Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) is to increase the role of commercial, for-profit universities not in his place, because I recall him, in the same debate, owned by private shareholders to help to achieve that seeking and securing a guarantee from the Business objective. They have significantly increased the number Secretary that fees of £9,000 would be the exception, of courses run by such institutions for which students not the norm. They are now the norm, because the can secure a student loan. Government failed to listen to vice-chancellors when I should say that there are already a large number of they changed the system. At that time, every vice-chancellor students studying and doing well at private universities was saying, “We cannot run our institutions at the fees in the UK. However, it is far from clear that Ministers the Government are talking about.” have grasped the scale of risk involved in allowing an Amazingly, when university governing bodies fulfilled even bigger expansion of access to student loans for their responsibilities to their institutions by setting fees commercial universities without proper safeguards. In at the much higher level that we have seen, it seemed to the US, the for-profit higher education world has been surprise the Government. It appears that they expected rocked by a series of scandals involving very high the universities obediently to set their fees according to drop-out rates, very low degree completion rates and their perceived quality, with Oxbridge setting the fees at aggressive recruitment practices. Indeed, according to a £9,000 and everybody else neatly ranking themselves recent American Senate investigation, in the three previous below. When that did not happen, new policies emerged years almost 2 million students had withdrawn from as quickly as they could be written on the back of a for-profit institutions without completing a degree but cigarette packet, particularly the core and margin policy. with significant personal debt. One such institution had Taking 20,000 places out of the system and selling them a drop-out rate of 84%. 243 Higher and Further Education11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Higher and Further Education 244

[Mr Gareth Thomas] East (Mr Brown) was forensic on debt, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) I accept that Ministers have said that some safeguards was impassioned about participation. My hon. Friend are needed as the commercial, for-profit part of the the Member for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey) was universities sector grows. It would be helpful if the sharp on upskilling as was my hon. Friend the Member for Under-Secretary of State for Skills, the hon. Member North West Durham (Pat Glass) when she spoke about for West Suffolk (Matthew Hancock), whom I congratulate the chaos in the FE sector. My hon. Friend the Member on his appointment, set out in his response a little more for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Tristram Hunt) spoke about detail about the Department’s plans. teaching, my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield For-profit commercial universities are still much less Central (Paul Blomfield) about social mobility, and my well regulated than mainstream universities. Surely hon. Friend the Member for Harrow West (Mr Thomas) Government Members would want the marketplace, as about the problems of private providers. they describe it, for university education at least to be We move from one fee fiasco in higher education to on a fair basis. Surely all for-profit companies offering a another in further education. In her opening remarks, university education that want to recruit students who my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Ladywood can access publicly backed loans should be subject to (Shabana Mahmood) spelt out the uncertain future that the same information and publication requirements as faces the nearly 400,000 adult learners affected by the public universities. Those requirements should include proposals. That situation came about as a direct result student data and financial information and, as I made clear of the blood offering made by Ministers from the in my intervention on the Minister—uncharacteristically, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills to he resorted to blather and ducked the question—be the Chancellor’s cuts in late 2010. As if appalled by the subject to freedom of information legislation. implications of what they had done, they then sat on the When he replies to the debate, I encourage the Minister issue and dithered for over a year before commissioning not to follow the example of his right hon. Friend the any surveys or discussing its practical consequences Minister for Universities and Science but to answer the with stakeholders. Those consequences are now putting question: when will Ministers bring forward plans to huge pressures on the FE sector. require commercial, for-profit universities to be subject FE colleges, which are key drivers of social mobility to freedom of information legislation? When will they and hubs within our communities, are being hit left, be required to provide the same level of data and right and centre by Government policy. First they were information as mainstream universities are so that they saddled with the 25% cut in resource grants, then the can be held to account in the same way? abolition of the education maintenance allowance put a strain on their budgets and, for the first time in many Mr Willetts: Briefly, we are using the designation years, they have seen a fall in the number of enrolments power—the power to designate courses and institutions— of 16-to-18 years olds. They are now confronted with much more actively than the previous Government. an FE loans policy that operates on a base assumption That will ensure both the financial strength and the that student numbers will drop by 20%. In fact, the quality of provision in courses at alternative providers. Department expects as many as 45% of learners—up to There are still differences in the regulatory regime and it 150,000 people based on current numbers—to drop cuts both ways—FOI legislation cuts one way, equalities out, and that will hit learners old and young alike as the cuts the other, but that is the power we are using. viability of college courses is affected. The system is inevitably more complex than HE Mr Thomas: I say gently to the Minister that it is loans because of the varying start dates, course durations interesting that he and his colleagues in the Treasury are and the costs of FE courses, and no central administration examining whether commercial, for-profit universities similar to that of UCAS has been entrusted to the should be exempt from VAT in order to create a level Student Loans Company. I say no more. Many hon. playing field, but other sensible regulations, such as the Members bare the casework scars from that organisation, requirement to be answerable to FOI legislation, as and there are no pilots in place to trial the new system. mainstream universities are, do not apply. Our collective experience of banking regulation and its failings, about which hon. Members across the House have uncomfortable Mr Willetts: We sorted it out. memories, ought to encourage Ministers to be wary of market failure. As I have said, surely commercial Mr Marsden: You have not. With their ability to offer universities that want exemptions should be properly a second chance, FE colleges are at the vanguard of held to account. promoting social mobility and loans could be a huge In her excellent opening speech, my hon. Friend the barrier to that. Four thousand pounds is a huge amount Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood) of money during the recession and could be a major set out clearly how this policy of higher tuition fees deterrent for learners, restricting the social mobility exemplifies the Government’s failures in a series of that I thought the Business Secretary was keen to promote. other areas. Our motion outlines a clear, sensible alternative, He should not just take my word for that, but should and on that basis, I commend it to the House. listen to his party’s immensely respected former spokeswoman on education in the Lords, Baroness Sharp. 9.41 pm In May this year she said: “I cannot understand why we, as a government, why on earth Mr Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab): I begin we are pushing forward with loans for level 3…I really think that by commending all speakers for the Opposition. My if we are concerned about social mobility, it’s very important that right hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne we try to overturn it.” 245 Higher and Further Education11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Higher and Further Education 246

She speaks for women, with whom level 3 FE courses education, employment or training and those just above are popular. The Departments statistics show that women have not had the training and support to allow them to make up roughly two thirds of the cohort who will be access apprenticeships, while those in the middle must hit by FE loans. For many women—those doing low-paid compete with young people who have stronger academic jobs or juggling family and caring commitments—a grades. £4,000 a year loan is not a realistic proposition. On top of that, Department for Education Ministers My discussions with women learners around the country have failed to fulfil their part of the FE bargain by reminded me of the outlook of many of my women dropping work experience from the schools curriculum, students when I was an Open university tutor. They dropping independent advice and guidance, and by wanted to broaden their horizons and welcomed what failing to help young people to climb the FE or their completed qualifications could offer them. However, apprenticeship ladders. They do not say that that is none felt they would be able to do those things under a what they are doing; they simply abdicate their responsibility loans system. The Government, and not least the Minister, for providing frameworks to make those things happen. have told us that we should forgo Government activity The classic example is the Government’s response to in favour of nudge theory. The jury may be out on the Jason Holt’s excellent review on how small and medium- latest intellectual fad, but Ministers need to be reminded sized enterprises could be given more support and that people can be nudged away from things as well as encouragement to take on young people. The Department’s towards them. response to his plea to them on careers advice and HE access courses are a popular route for female guidance was this: learners, so I am glad that, after a long campaign, the “Whilst we welcome the specific suggestions made by Mr Holt former Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong …we believe it should be up to schools, together with local Learning announced a series of concessions before the partners including employers, to determine how best to address summer recess. That was a welcome first step, but his this challenge”. successor needs to ensure that those commitments are I am therefore not surprised that, in this week’s issue of implemented rapidly and effectively. Even so, Million+ Further Education Week, Mr Holt states: warns us in the briefing for today’s debate that the net result of the overall changes will, in the long term, be “I am disappointed the Government has not taken more notice of my proposal…I had hoped they would require schools actively fewer mature learners, and that progression by those to promote apprenticeships and to put a stronger emphasis on who want to study later in life will be undermined. equipping pupils with…skills…there is still no obvious structure However, the Government have not budged an inch in the school system to encourage young people to think of on scrapping direct financial support for level 3 and apprenticeships…The Government’s decision to hand the baton above apprenticeships and forcing apprentices to take to already hard-pressed and financially constrained schools will on individual loans. In responding to the FE consultation, result in little actually happening.” the UK Commission for Employment and Skills specifically When I chided him on this last week in Question counselled the Government that not just large employers Time, the Secretary of State said that he did not regard are concerned and lukewarm about the proposals, but the hands-off approach at the Department for Education adult apprentices themselves. UKCES gave the Government as the last word on active Government. The new Under- at best an amber light, and at worst a red light, and yet Secretary of State for Skills, the hon. Member for West they press ahead. If huge numbers of adults drop out, Suffolk (Matthew Hancock), has a golden opportunity. the Government’s much-vaunted drive to increase He is a Minister in the Department for Education as apprenticeships, which is heavily dependent on increases well as BIS. Will he take up the cause and address Jason in post-25 apprenticeships, will be in tatters. The numbers Holt’s concerns? His predecessor would have done so. will simply fall off a cliff. That might blow a hole in the At the same time, little or nothing has been done to Government’s hubris, but more importantly, it will deny respond to the pleas from business to get involved in the life chances of tens of thousands of adult learners. such programmes—again, waffle but no action. This is At the other end of the age spectrum, grants are a dithering Government. For all their talk of being offered for small and medium-sized enterprises to take joined-up, the chasms and conflicts between the Department on 16 to 24-year-olds, but they are moving at a snail’s for Education and BIS are widening. They have wasted pace. That is why the Opposition proposed earlier this the best part of two years, failing to use billions of year to expand the number of apprenticeships, by buddying pounds of public procurement to guarantee apprenticeships up with large employers and expanding group training from companies bidding for large contracts. associations. In the meantime, local authorities, including While the Opposition have been working closely on many Labour local authorities, must pick up the slack policies to give young people a linked partnership of as the Government stall and flail around. Councils such opportunities—from school days and college through as Liverpool, Wakefield, Barking and Dagenham, to further education, including for older learners—the Knowsley, Dudley, Oldham, and my council, Blackpool, gap between the two Departments has become a chasm. work with local colleges and providers to place young While they want to erect barriers, we want to build people in quality apprenticeships. bridges. As my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Many young people are still unable to access some of Opposition said this week, we need a skills system that the most competitive apprenticeships without the necessary does not leave us a country where the 50% who do not pre-apprenticeship training. The Government’s fiascos— go to university feel completely left out. We plan to they first allowed and then curtailed short-term build that new agenda with schools, young people, apprenticeships—have wasted precious months and years, businesses and trade unions working to fashion new as the Association of Employment and Learning Providers vocational training systems. My right hon. Friend has said in its September newsletter. Young learners in said it all: while the Government dither, we are stepping further education face a double-whammy. Those not in forward. I commend the motion. 247 Higher and Further Education11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Higher and Further Education 248

9.51 pm Tristram Hunt rose— The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Skills (Matthew Hancock): I rise to propose that the House Matthew Hancock: I am sorry, but if the hon. Gentleman oppose the motion. We have had contributions of great had been here at the start of the wind-ups, I might have passion, not least from the right hon. Members for given way to him. Newcastle upon Tyne East (Mr Brown) and for Tottenham (Mr Lammy), both of whom supported fees in principle Tristram Hunt rose— but wished that they were lower. They both generously set out where they agree with what the Government Matthew Hancock: No, I am not giving way. If the have done, not least on improved contact hours and the hon. Gentleman will not come back for the wind-ups, focus on employment outcomes, which surely must be he is not going to have another say. crucial. I listened carefully to their points and welcome The hon. Member for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey) their constructive approach, particularly because each raised concerns about applications from low-income argued that, in this competitive world, having a first-rate students and asked about FE loans. The shadow Minister, university and further education sector is critical for the hon. Member for Blackpool South (Mr Marsden)—with our ability to compete in the world. I welcome many of whom I look forward very much to working—also their comments, but would go further. The right hon. made the argument about FE loans. Rather like with Member for Newcastle upon Tyne East even said how part-time students in HE, the FE loans policy will he would pay to reduce fees. I will come to that in a remove up-front costs. Following the package that was moment. set out by my predecessor in July—which was welcomed That constructive approach was in sharp contrast to by the Association of Colleges, as well as the hon. the contribution from the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent Gentleman and others—I very much look forward to Central (Tristram Hunt), who is not in his place. He working with him and the Chair of the Business, Innovation talked about application numbers, but did not point out and Skills Committee on the design of the package, and that the number of 18-year-olds in the country is falling. to talking to him about it soon. We therefore have to look at the proportion of 18-year-olds The hon. Member for Harrow West (Mr Thomas) applying. According to UCAS, the proportion applying argued against profit-making universities. this year was higher than in any year of the previous Labour Government. Every Opposition Member should Tristram Hunt: Will the Minister give way? remember that fact when listening to the anecdotal numbers. If there are fewer 18-year-olds, surely we should look at the proportion of them applying to Matthew Hancock: I will give way to people who were university. here for the start of the winding-up speeches, but not those who make a speech and then do not come back. My hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) made a powerful speech and, in particular, celebrated studentfinance2012.com, which Tristram Hunt rose— busts many of the myths sadly propagated by Opposition Members and instead points out what happens to Mr Speaker: Order. The Minister is clearly not giving students when they go to university, and when and how way. I think that much we have established. much they pay back. I commend the work of studentfinance2012.com. Indeed, I am sure that the fact Matthew Hancock: It was very clear. that the proportion of applications is higher than in any My hon. Friends the Members for Burnley (Gordon year under the Labour Government is partly because Birtwistle) and for Mid Derbyshire (Pauline Latham) students look at facilities and think very hard about effectively made the case that we all have a responsibility how they are going to go to university. to let everybody know that no one will pay a penny in The hon. Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield) their fees until they are earning over £21,000. Let that argued strongly about social mobility. By contrast, I message go out from here. My hon. Friend the Member had a lot of respect for, but disagreed with, the hon. for Burnley was typically passionate, and my hon. Friend Member for North West Durham (Pat Glass). She the Member for Mid Derbyshire showed strong support made an impassioned argument against fees, as did the for Derby university and for apprenticeships. hon. Gentleman. She also focused on the need to reform the GCSE system. She made an effective speech, and I Tristram Hunt: Will the Minister give way? agree that the GCSE exam system needs to be reformed. My hon. Friends the Members for Hertsmere Matthew Hancock: No. (Mr Clappison) and for Reading East (Mr Wilson) Finally, in the short amount of time available to me, focused on access, saying that universities should be free let me say that Government Members faced up to the to make decisions about access. The Minister of State difficult challenges of funding higher education. However, set out the duty to protect the rights of universities to we do not know what the Opposition stand for. It is like select students. Les Ebdon’s comment that one poor a multiple-choice question. Which is the answer? Is it student should be able to go to university for everyone the graduate tax? We know that the Leader of the in the top 20% is indeed a laudable aim. I agree with Opposition is in favour of a graduate tax because he him about that, and I think broad education reforms said: will be needed, not least free schools, academies, the pupil premium and the focus on improving education “I want to have a graduate tax.” throughout our system, including in schools, all of Or is the answer lower fees, paid for by axing bursaries which will be important. and access schemes and by cutting courses— 249 Higher and Further Education11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Higher and Further Education 250

Mr Alan Campbell (Tynemouth) (Lab) claimed to Khan, rh Sadiq Reynolds, Emma move the closure (Standing Order No. 36). Lammy, rh Mr David Reynolds, Jonathan Lavery, Ian Riordan, Mrs Linda Question put forthwith, That the Question be now Lazarowicz, Mark Ritchie, Ms Margaret put. Leslie, Chris Robertson, John Question agreed to. Lewis, Mr Ivan Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Question put accordingly (Standing Order No. 31(2)), Lloyd, Tony Rotheram, Steve That the original words stand part of the Question. Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Roy, Mr Frank Long, Naomi Roy, Lindsay The House divided: Ayes 224, Noes 285. Lucas, Caroline Ruane, Chris Division No. 63] [9.59 pm Lucas, Ian Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Mactaggart, Fiona Sarwar, Anas Mahmood, Shabana Seabeck, Alison AYES Malhotra, Seema Shannon, Jim Abbott, Ms Diane Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Marsden, Mr Gordon Sharma, Mr Virendra Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Doran, Mr Frank McCann, Mr Michael Sheerman, Mr Barry Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Dowd, Jim McCarthy, Kerry Sheridan, Jim Allen, Mr Graham Doyle, Gemma McClymont, Gregg Shuker, Gavin Anderson, Mr David Dromey, Jack McCrea, Dr William Simpson, David Ashworth, Jonathan Dugher, Michael McDonnell, John Skinner, Mr Dennis Bailey, Mr Adrian Durkan, Mark McFadden, rh Mr Pat Slaughter, Mr Andy Bain, Mr William Eagle, Maria McGovern, Alison Smith, rh Mr Andrew Balls, rh Ed Edwards, Jonathan McGovern, Jim Smith, Angela Banks, Gordon Efford, Clive McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Smith, Nick Barron, rh Mr Kevin Ellman, Mrs Louise McKechin, Ann Smith, Owen Beckett, rh Margaret Engel, Natascha McKenzie, Mr Iain Spellar, rh Mr John Begg, Dame Anne Esterson, Bill McKinnell, Catherine Straw, rh Mr Jack Benn, rh Hilary Evans, Chris Meacher, rh Mr Michael Stuart, Ms Gisela Benton, Mr Joe Farrelly, Paul Meale, Sir Alan Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Berger, Luciana Field, rh Mr Frank Mearns, Ian Tami, Mark Betts, Mr Clive Fitzpatrick, Jim Michael, rh Alun Thomas, Mr Gareth Blears, rh Hazel Flello, Robert Miliband, rh David Thornberry, Emily Blenkinsop, Tom Flint, rh Caroline Miliband, rh Edward Timms, rh Stephen Blomfield, Paul Flynn, Paul Miller, Andrew Trickett, Jon Blunkett, rh Mr David Fovargue, Yvonne Morden, Jessica Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Francis, Dr Hywel Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Turner, Karl Brennan, Kevin Gardiner, Barry Morris, Grahame M. Twigg, Derek Brown, Lyn Glass, Pat (Easington) Twigg, Stephen Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Glindon, Mrs Mary Mudie, Mr George Umunna, Mr Chuka Brown, Mr Russell Goggins, rh Paul Munn, Meg Vaz, rh Keith Bryant, Chris Goodman, Helen Murphy, rh Paul Vaz, Valerie Burden, Richard Greatrex, Tom Murray, Ian Walley, Joan Campbell, Mr Alan Green, Kate Nandy, Lisa Watson, Mr Tom Campbell, Mr Gregory Greenwood, Lilian Nash, Pamela Watts, Mr Dave Campbell, Mr Ronnie Griffith, Nia O’Donnell, Fiona Whitehead, Dr Alan Caton, Martin Gwynne, Andrew Onwurah, Chi Williams, Hywel Chapman, Jenny Hain, rh Mr Peter Osborne, Sandra Williamson, Chris Clark, Katy Hamilton, Mr David Owen, Albert Wilson, Phil Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hamilton, Fabian Paisley, Ian Winnick, Mr David Clwyd, rh Ann Hanson, rh Mr David Pearce, Teresa Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Coaker, Vernon Harman, rh Ms Harriet Percy, Andrew Wood, Mike Connarty, Michael Harris, Mr Tom Phillipson, Bridget Wright, David Cooper, Rosie Havard, Mr Dai Pound, Stephen Wright, Mr Iain Cooper, rh Yvette Healey, rh John Qureshi, Yasmin Corbyn, Jeremy Hendrick, Mark Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Tellers for the Ayes: Crausby, Mr David Hermon, Lady Reed, Mr Jamie Julie Hilling and Creagh, Mary Hillier, Meg Reeves, Rachel Heidi Alexander Creasy, Stella Hodge, rh Margaret Cryer, John Hopkins, Kelvin NOES Cunningham, Alex Howarth, rh Mr George Cunningham, Mr Jim Hunt, Tristram Adams, Nigel Barwell, Gavin Cunningham, Sir Tony Irranca-Davies, Huw Afriyie, Adam Bebb, Guto Curran, Margaret Jamieson, Cathy Aldous, Peter Beith, rh Sir Alan Dakin, Nic Jarvis, Dan Alexander, rh Danny Bellingham, Mr Henry Danczuk, Simon Johnson, rh Alan Andrew, Stuart Beresford, Sir Paul David, Wayne Johnson, Diana Bacon, Mr Richard Berry, Jake Davidson, Mr Ian Jones, Graham Baker, Norman Bingham, Andrew Davies, Geraint Jones, Susan Elan Baker, Steve Binley, Mr Brian De Piero, Gloria Jowell, rh Dame Tessa Baldry, Sir Tony Birtwistle, Gordon Denham, rh Mr John Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Baldwin, Harriett Blackman, Bob Dobson, rh Frank Keeley, Barbara Barclay, Stephen Boles, Nick Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Kendall, Liz Baron, Mr John Bone, Mr Peter 251 Higher and Further Education11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Higher and Further Education 252

Bottomley, Sir Peter Graham, Richard Macleod, Mary Simmonds, Mark Bradley, Karen Grant, Mrs Helen Main, Mrs Anne Skidmore, Chris Brady, Mr Graham Gray, Mr James Maude, rh Mr Francis Smith, Miss Chloe Brake, rh Tom Grayling, rh Chris Maynard, Paul Smith, Henry Bray, Angie Greening, rh Justine McCartney, Karl Smith, Sir Robert Brazier, Mr Julian Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McIntosh, Miss Anne Soubry, Anna Bridgen, Andrew Griffiths, Andrew McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Brine, Steve Gummer, Ben McPartland, Stephen Spencer, Mr Mark Brooke, Annette Gyimah, Mr Sam McVey, Esther Stanley, rh Sir John Browne, Mr Jeremy Halfon, Robert Menzies, Mark Stephenson, Andrew Bruce, Fiona Hames, Duncan Metcalfe, Stephen Stevenson, John Buckland, Mr Robert Hammond, Stephen Miller, Maria Stewart, Bob Burley, Mr Aidan Hancock, Matthew Mills, Nigel Stewart, Iain Burns, rh Mr Simon Hands, Greg Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stride, Mel Burt, Alistair Harper, Mr Mark Moore, rh Michael Stunell, Andrew Burt, Lorely Harrington, Richard Morgan, Nicky Sturdy, Julian Byles, Dan Harris, Rebecca Morris, Anne Marie Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hart, Simon Morris, James Swinson, Jo Carmichael, Neil Hayes, Mr John Mosley, Stephen Swire, rh Mr Hugo Carswell, Mr Douglas Heald, Oliver Mowat, David Syms, Mr Robert Cash, Mr William Heath, Mr David Munt, Tessa Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Chishti, Rehman Hemming, John Neill, Robert Thurso, John Clappison, Mr James Henderson, Gordon Newmark, Mr Brooks Timpson, Mr Edward Clark, rh Greg Hendry, Charles Newton, Sarah Tomlinson, Justin Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Herbert, rh Nick Nokes, Caroline Tredinnick, David Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hinds, Damian Norman, Jesse Truss, Elizabeth Collins, Damian Hoban, Mr Mark Nuttall, Mr David Turner, Mr Andrew Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hollobone, Mr Philip Offord, Dr Matthew Tyrie, Mr Andrew Crabb, Stephen Hopkins, Kris Ollerenshaw, Eric Uppal, Paul Davey, rh Mr Edward Horwood, Martin Opperman, Guy Vaizey, Mr Edward Davies, Glyn Howarth, Sir Gerald Ottaway, Richard Vara, Mr Shailesh Davies, Philip Howell, John Paice, rh Sir James Vickers, Martin Davis, rh Mr David Hughes, rh Simon Parish, Neil Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa de Bois, Nick Huhne, rh Chris Patel, Priti Walker, Mr Charles Dinenage, Caroline Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Pawsey, Mark Walker, Mr Robin Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hunter, Mark Penrose, John Wallace, Mr Ben Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Hurd, Mr Nick Percy, Andrew Walter, Mr Robert Dorries, Nadine Jackson, Mr Stewart Perry, Claire Ward, Mr David Doyle-Price, Jackie James, Margot Phillips, Stephen Drax, Richard Javid, Sajid Pickles, rh Mr Eric Watkinson, Angela Duddridge, James Jenkin, Mr Bernard Pincher, Christopher Weatherley, Mike Duncan, rh Mr Alan Johnson, Gareth Poulter, Dr Daniel Webb, Steve Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Johnson, Joseph Prisk, Mr Mark Wheeler, Heather Dunne, Mr Philip Jones, Andrew Raab, Mr Dominic White, Chris Ellis, Michael Jones, Mr David Randall, rh Mr John Whittaker, Craig Ellison, Jane Jones, Mr Marcus Redwood, rh Mr John Wiggin, Bill Ellwood, Mr Tobias Kawczynski, Daniel Rees-Mogg, Jacob Willetts, rh Mr David Elphicke, Charlie Kelly, Chris Reid, Mr Alan Williams, Mr Mark Eustice, George Kirby, Simon Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Williams, Roger Evans, Graham Knight, rh Mr Greg Robertson, Mr Laurence Williams, Stephen Evans, Jonathan Kwarteng, Kwasi Rogerson, Dan Williamson, Gavin Evennett, Mr David Lamb, Norman Rudd, Amber Wilson, Mr Rob Fabricant, Michael Lancaster, Mark Ruffley, Mr David Wollaston, Dr Sarah Featherstone, Lynne Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Russell, Sir Bob Wright, Jeremy Field, Mark Latham, Pauline Rutley, David Wright, Simon Foster, rh Mr Don Laws, rh Mr David Sandys, Laura Young, rh Sir George Francois, rh Mr Mark Leadsom, Andrea Scott, Mr Lee Zahawi, Nadhim Freeman, George Lee, Jessica Selous, Andrew Freer, Mike Lee, Dr Phillip Shapps, rh Grant Tellers for the Noes: Fullbrook, Lorraine Lefroy, Jeremy Sharma, Alok Anne Milton and Fuller, Richard Leigh, Mr Edward Shelbrooke, Alec Jenny Willott Gale, Sir Roger Leslie, Charlotte Garnier, Sir Edward Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Question accordingly negatived. Garnier, Mark Lewis, Brandon Gauke, Mr David Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 31(2)), George, Andrew Lidington, rh Mr David That the proposed words be there added. Gibb, Mr Nick Lilley, rh Mr Peter Question agreed to. Gilbert, Stephen Lloyd, Stephen Main Question, as amended, put and agreed to. Glen, John Lord, Jonathan Goldsmith, Zac Loughton, Tim Resolved, Goodwill, Mr Robert Luff, Peter That this House congratulates all those who have recently Gove, rh Michael Lumley, Karen achieved their educational qualifications; notes the number of 253 11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Business without Debate 254 full-time higher education students in 2012 is expected to be Question agreed to. higher than in any year under the previous administration; believes Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing that the pupil premium, which is designed to raise the attainment of pupils from low-income households, represents a powerful Order No. 119(11)), mechanism for widening participation in higher education; welcomes the increased spending on widening participation in higher education, EU READMISSION AGREEMENT WITH TURKEY including the higher maintenance grants, the National Scholarship That this House takes note of European Union Documents Programme and the extension of tuition loans to part-time students; No. 11720/12, a draft Council Decision concerning the signing of further notes the Institute for Fiscal Studies’ recent finding that the Agreement between the European Union and Turkey on the the new student finance system “is actually more progressive than readmission of persons residing without authorisation, and its predecessor: the poorest 29 per cent of graduates will be better No. 11743/12, a draft Council Decision concerning the conclusion off under the new system”; supports the extra information provided of the Agreement between the European Union and Turkey on to prospective students through the student finance tour and the the readmission of persons residing without authorisation; and Key Information Set; further supports the efforts being made to supports the Government’s recommendation to opt in to the draft ensure the best possible match between students and institutions, Council Decision on conclusion.—(Karen Bradley.) with one-quarter of all undergraduate places removed from centralised number controls; and congratulates the Government for working Question agreed to. with employers to deliver an unprecedented increase in apprenticeships, with 800,000 new starts since September 2010. PETITION Business without Debate Post Office facilities (Bargeddie) EUROPEAN UNION DOCUMENTS 10.15 pm Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 119(11)), Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) (Lab): It is a privilege for me to present this petition on EURODAC behalf of my constituents, who wish to see in the village That this House takes note of European Union Document of Bargeddie both existing postal services maintained No. 10638/12, relating to a draft Regulation of the European and additional ones in due course. Parliament and of the Council on the establishment of ‘EURODAC’ The petition states: for the comparison of fingerprints for the effective application of Regulation (EU) No.[.../...] (establishing the criteria and mechanisms The Petition of residents of the Coatbridge, Chryston and for determining the Member State responsible for examining an Bellshill constituency, application for international protection lodged in one of the Declares that the Petitioners support the continued presence of Member States by a third-country national or a stateless person) the Bargeddie post office as well as the maintenance of DVLA and to request comparisons with EURODAC data by Member provision and other facilities there. States’ law enforcement authorities and Europol for law enforcement The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons purposes and amending Regulation (EU) No. 1077/2011 establishing urges the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, to a European Agency for the operational management of large-scale make provision for the Bargeddie post office to remain open and IT systems in the area of freedom, security and justice; and for the provision of DVLA and other connected facilities to be supports the Government’s recommendation to exercise the right continued. to decide whether or not to opt in to the Directive in accordance with Title V of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European And the Petitioners remain, etc. Union.—(Karen Bradley.) [P001116] 255 11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Wayne Moore 256

Wayne Moore admit that contact information had been provided by Wayne in June. It also said that an identity parade Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House would be arranged, and a video identity parade by do now adjourn.—(Karen Bradley.) electronic recording was scheduled to take place at Wayne’s home on 23 September 2008. However, less 10.16 pm than 24 hours before, on 22 September, he was told it Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): was to take place at a barracks, which was both insensitive, May I start by welcoming the Minister to his place because of the location of the attack, and very short and his new role, and also extend my thanks to him for notice. After the ID parade, nothing further was heard. contacting me in advance about this evening’s debate? I Wayne had to chase the outcome and be told that he am very pleased to have secured this Adjournment had identified the wrong person. That was never confirmed debate concerning my constituent, Mr Wayne Moore. I to him in writing. sought this debate as a previous Government Minister On 15 November 2008, the MOD said that the case had refused to meet me about my constituent and file was being completed and would be sent on to the because of the appalling way he has been treated. I will appropriate authority and, once it was finalised, Wayne set out the facts and the key issues. would be sent an inquiry outcome notification letter to In May 2008, Wayne Moore was working as a chef in update him on progress. On 26 November 2008, a letter Germany, as a self-employed contractor for an agency was apparently sent to Wayne, but he never received it. employed by the Ministry of Defence. On 25 May 2008, If the Minister looks at that letter, he will find that it he was seriously assaulted by a serving member of the certainly gives the impression that the case had been British forces. He was so seriously hurt that he had to be sent to the prosecution authorities and that the perpetrator revived twice. This attack has had considerable consequences would be brought before the courts. As Wayne did not for Wayne in terms of continuing illness, long periods know that, he contacted his MP again and the hon. of not being able to work, depression and anxiety, as Member for Cheltenham wrote again on 15 December well as post-traumatic stress disorder. 2008 and 13 February 2009 raising concerns about what was happening and about the conduct of the investigation. After the attack, I would have expected the Royal On 9 March 2009, the MOD stated that a letter had Military Police to immediately carry out a thorough been sent on 26 November 2008 but also agreed that a investigation to put a case together for the relevant review of the investigation was to take place. A letter prosecuting authority to act upon in a timely manner. dated 31 July 2009 from the relevant Minister said that However, what appears to have happened is a very the review was taking longer than expected but expressed shoddy, inadequate investigation. We now know that the hope that he would be able to advise of the outcome although CCTV had been viewed at the time, it was not in the near future. captured as evidence. Forensic evidence was not obtained and medical evidence was not properly sought and I now want to refer to the letter that then did follow, looked at. It is important to note that the Special that of 19 August 2009, which listed the findings of the Investigation Branch originally took a statement from independent review of the military police’s involvement Wayne. That happens only when serious assaults take in the case. I shall read a couple of sections of that place, which indicates the severity of the attack. I understand letter. It came from an MOD Minister and it stated: that the assailant was identified by a witness, but Wayne “In summary, the Reviewing Officer has concluded that although was never invited to confirm the identity of the attacker. there were missed investigative opportunities in this case, these It came to light later, when a local MEP asked whether errors would not have altered the outcome of the investigation. the German police had been notified at the time of the Nevertheless, it would appear that the RMP and the Army did not provide Mr Moore with the support that he should have been assault, that once again a mistake had been made in the able to expect from this Department. I apologise for this and I can initial investigation as the RMP had wrongly thought assure you that a number of lessons have been learnt.” both assailant and victim were British forces; it had not “As part of the Review, the RMP Reviewing Officer identified even been bothered to find out that Wayne was a civilian. a number of missed investigative opportunities: CCTV footage Of further concern was the fact that after such a was viewed but not recovered; potential witnesses to the assault vicious attack on a contractor of the British Army, the were not identified; opportunities to recover medical and forensic British Army provided no victim support or other care evidence were missed and there were unnecessary delays, which in and advice to Wayne. He was not contacted or kept one case led to a witness declining to provide identification informed of the progress of the case in those early evidence. Importantly, there was a general lack of higher level supervision which led to the investigation as a whole taking too weeks and months, and this pattern was to continue for long.” the following four years. So Wayne contacted his then constituency MP, the hon. Member for Cheltenham It continued: (Martin Horwood), who wrote to the MOD on 14 August “While the identification of further witnesses and more complete to find out what was going on, asking whether Wayne medical evidence may have given the Commanding Officer and would be asked to confirm the identity of his attacker his legal advisers a more detailed understanding of the facts, it is and whether there was to be an identity parade. I pay the view of the Reviewing Officer that this would not have changed the outcome of the investigation.” tribute to the hon. Gentleman and his caseworker, Roberta Crawley, for their hard work and persistence It also said that the reviewing officer had “highlighted over the years that followed in challenging the Ministry failings” in relation to of Defence on Wayne’s behalf. I also pay tribute to Paul “how Mr Moore, as a victim of crime, was kept informed of Carbert, in my office, for his work over the past year. progress of the investigation and of the subsequent decision not The first letters from the MOD initially claimed that to charge the alleged offender with any offence.” Wayne had left Germany and not given contact information It also commented on how the outcome notification to the Army. That was wrong and the MOD later had to letter could have misled anyone reading it. 257 Wayne Moore11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Wayne Moore 258

As a result of that letter, Wayne Moore had a personal debate from Mr Speaker. I believe that there has been a meeting with the reviewing officer, Lieutenant Colonel catalogue of errors and incompetence from start to Grainger, who, it transpired at the meeting, was ignorant finish in the investigation of the attack on Wayne Moore. of many of the facts of the case. He thought that there When one looks at the file, it is quite clear that Ministers had been “a coming together” of the two men, but did were signing letters in good faith, but I believe that not know that Wayne had been resuscitated twice and those letters were misleading in retrospect. The Ministry also that the SIB had been involved. In Lieutenant of Defence needs to look very carefully at how Ministers Colonel Grainger’s own words, it would have been were put in that position. involved only in life-threatening cases. I believe that the MOD has to explain a few things. So the hon. Member for Cheltenham wrote asking The first is the delay and incompetent investigation by for a further review on 23 October 2009, and in February the military police at the start. I find it incomprehensible 2010 the relevant Minister sent the case to the independent that the MOD could conclude that the missed investigative case file assessor. In April 2010, the independent assessor opportunities would not have altered the outcome of recommended a more detailed look at the medical the case. Secondly, the MOD must explain the lack of evidence and at whether any variation to the seriousness updates and support for Wayne, a victim of a serious of the original offence should be considered. assault, and its failure to deal with matters in a timely On 8 September 2010, we had a new Government way. Thirdly, it must explain the perceived bias of an and a new Minister. The Minister wrote that he was investigation in which the alleged attacker was a member getting on with obtaining the medical evidence and that of the armed forces and the victim was a civilian. it would be sent to the Service Prosecuting Authority. Fourthly, it must explain why the first review was carried On 31 March 2011, the Minister wrote again saying that out by Lieutenant Colonel Grainger, who clearly did it had taken a long time to get the medical evidence and not know the facts of what had happened, and whether that he was now seeking information from the SPA on the MOD feels that a new review should now take place how to proceed. with all the evidence made available. Further chasing letters were sent by the hon. Member I think that the MOD should apologise to Wayne for for Cheltenham in May, June and July 2011. Finally, an how the Department has acted over the past four years e-mail from the SPA in July 2011 confirmed that the and for trying, four years on, to claim that Wayne case had never been referred and a letter from the Moore was the perpetrator of the assault when that Minister in September 2011 admitted that the case had question was never raised before and has caused him never been passed on. That is one year’s further delay in enormous distress. I realise that the Minister present Mr Moore’s case. I became involved in the case in this evening is a new Minister, but I hope that he has October 2011. some answers for Mr Moore, who feels very aggrieved about how he has been treated. He is a law-abiding Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): I commend the citizen who is doing his best and who has been out of hon. Lady for securing this debate and for the extremely work for many years now, and he feels that he has been diligent and committed way in which she has pursued very shabbily treated. and taken up this very disturbing case. Does she agree that it demonstrates a truly appalling series of failings 10.29 pm in the investigations, the administration of the case by the different authorities, the communications between The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Mr Mark them and, above all, the communications between those Francois): If the House will allow me a brief indulgence, authorities and Mr Moore, who has only ever sought after two and a half years in the Whips Office and the justice for the injuries he received? vow of Omerta that goes with it, it is a pleasure to be able to speak in the House of Commons again. Now Diana Johnson: I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman that I have that ability, may I congratulate the hon. for that point, which he makes very well. It clearly sets Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) the context of the debate. on securing this debate on the case of her constituent, I met Wayne in October 2011 when he moved to Hull Mr Wayne Moore, who was allegedly assaulted on and on 31 October 2011 I raised concerns with the then 25 May 2008 in Germany? I note that the hon. Member Minister about the fact that the case was progressing so for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) is also in the Chamber slowly. The Minister said that the case was still under and I am well aware of his long interest in this case as consideration by the SPA and I chased that again. Mr Moore’s constituency MP, before Mr Moore moved Wayne finally received a letter dated 10 April 2012, to Hull. nearly four years after the original assault. It stated that I was sorry to learn the details of this incident, as I the SPA had concluded that there was no realistic am for Mr Moore, who has clearly suffered following prospect of conviction, and suggested that Wayne was the events of 25 May 2008. That was made plain by the drunk when the attack happened and that the attacker Member of Parliament who now represents him. I hope was acting in self-defence. That was the first time that that this debate will help answer any outstanding concerns this version of events had been suggested and I must say Mr Moore may have. I am sure, though, that the House that I was shocked that after four years Wayne was will also understand that I will be unable to cover some being accused of assault. It also occurs to me that if the detail relating to the case publicly, not least for reasons Army really thought that that was what had happened, of data protection and legal privilege. However, I can it had completely failed in its responsibilities to investigate confirm that this incident was initially investigated by the case fully. the Royal Military Police. It may help at this juncture if I therefore asked for a meeting with the Minister to I explain that the RMP undertook the investigation discuss the case on 23 May 2012. I was refused, which is under the agreement with the German authorities covering why I have come to the House and why I sought a the basing of our forces in the country as part of the 259 Wayne Moore11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Wayne Moore 260

[Mr Mark Francois] not military and there was considerable delay on the part of the civilian medical authorities in providing NATO alliance, which is known as the status of forces the necessary information. The issue of patient/doctor agreement. This is because the accused was a British confidentiality and data protection, and the difficulty serviceman and the incident took place on a British this poses to police forces wishing to pursue fully all military base. The service police work very closely with lines of inquiry, is an issue that we recognise, and one their civilian colleagues, both in the UK and when our that faces many police organisations, not only, in fairness, forces are deployed overseas. those in the military. The initial investigation commenced on 26 May 2008. As a result of that further work, the case was referred It concluded in November that year, and the matter was to the Director of Service Prosecutions. Having received passed to the chain of command of the accused for the file, prosecutors requested further clarification, which their consideration. In December, following legal advice, required a short period of further work. Once that was the commanding officer made a decision using his complete, they properly applied the “full code” test, statutory authority under the Army Act 1955—the which requires the prosecuting authority to judge whether legislation that was in force at that time—not to prosecute there is a realistic prospect of conviction—is it more any individual in relation to the incident. The case likely than not?—and, if so, whether prosecution is in was therefore discontinued at that stage. Following the public, including the service, interest. In this case representations from Mr Moore, a lieutenant colonel they considered that there was not a realistic prospect of from the Royal Military Police conducted an internal conviction and, therefore, no charges were brought. review in July 2009, which the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North mentioned. He conducted a thorough Because of the role it plays within the service justice review of the case and the relevant evidence, and identified system, the Service Prosecuting Authority is rightly a number of missed investigative opportunities. CCTV independent of both the chain of command and the footage was reviewed and found to have no evidence of Ministry of Defence and falls under the superintendence the incident in question, but was not recovered; some of my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General. potential witnesses to the incident were not identified; That is analogous to the Crown Prosecution Service and there were avoidable delays that, in one case, may being independent of the civilian police. I hope that the have led to a witness declining to provide identification hon. Lady will therefore understand that it would be evidence. Nevertheless, he concluded that those shortfalls inappropriate for me to comment further on its decision. would not have materially altered the outcome, not least What I can say is that the Director of Service Prosecutions because other evidence, including witness evidence, has reviewed the case personally and not only provided contradicted Mr Moore’s version of the incident. an assurance that the correct assessment processes were The Royal Military Police’s chief officer, the Provost followed but endorsed the decision that there was no Marshal (Army), wrote to Mr Moore to offer his personal realistic prospect of conviction. Accordingly, the managing apologies for these failures in the investigative process prosecutor wrote to Mr Moore to advise him formally and to suggest a meeting with his staff to explain their of the outcome, explaining the reasons for the conclusion findings in more detail. Mr Moore took them up on this he reached and provided Mr Moore with the opportunity offer and later that year the Royal Military Police met to request a meeting to discuss the reasons in more the hon. Lady’s constituent and explained their findings detail, which I understand he has not, to date, pursued. to him directly. The Solicitor-General subsequently reviewed the case papers and did not dissent from the decision. Following that review, Mr Moore continued to express reservations about the way in which the matter had No one can deny that, following the independent case been investigated and again asked that the matter be review in early 2010, this case was more protracted than reopened. Accordingly, in March 2010, the Royal Military anyone would have wished. In that sense, the hon. Lady Police asked a retired civilian detective chief superintendent has a perfectly fair point. We also recognise that there with many years’ experience in this area to undertake a were failures properly to support and inform Mr Moore further independent review of the case to provide additional of the status of the initial investigation and subsequently external assurance of the investigation. This further through the review process. I hope that the hon. Lady is review concurred with the Royal Military Police’s own assured, as I was, by the willingness of the service police assessment that although some investigative opportunities to consider her constituent’s concerns and review the were missed in the case, as the hon. Lady said, they case not once, but twice, including by an independent would not have altered the outcome of the investigation. assessor. As I know she will appreciate, the vast majority It was, however, suggested by the detective chief of police investigations within the service justice system superintendent, that obtaining further evidence from are managed quickly, efficiently and effectively.Nevertheless, medical sources who treated Mr Moore in Germany at in the small percentage of cases in which investigative the time and subsequently in the UK might provide mistakes have been made, it is vital that the police are grounds to allow investigators to refer the case to the open and honest enough to hold their hands up and Service Prosecuting Authority under the new legislative apologise, and I believe that this case highlights their framework of the Armed Forces Act 2006, which had willingness to do so. recently come into force in October 2009. As such, the chief officer of the Royal Military Police Diana Johnson: I think that the Minister is coming to set about obtaining further medical evidence in support the end of his contribution and wonder whether he of Mr Moore’s case. Unfortunately, and despite the might be willing to comment on the allegation that has efforts of police investigators, it took until March 2011 now been made against Mr Moore four years on—that for all the additional information to be provided. I he perpetrated the attack—which was not raised before should point out here that these medical sources were and has caused him a great deal of distress. 261 Wayne Moore11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Wayne Moore 262

Mr Francois: I understand the hon. Lady’s point and as I said, the witness statements that have been made think that I will have time to refer to it in my conclusion. available clearly contradict the version of events that has been provided by Mr Moore. I would not want to leave the House with the impression that the delay that occurred in this case, for which the I know that the hon. Lady’s constituent continues to RMP has apologised, is the norm within the service suffer as a result of the events of May 2008. Nevertheless, justice system: it is not. Members will be aware that the his suffering is not in itself proof that a crime was three services each have their own police forces—the Royal committed, and after repeated, careful and independent Navy Police, the Royal Military Police and the Royal consideration of the events in question the conclusion Air Force Police—which have statutory powers devolved has always remained the same—that there is no realistic through the Armed Forces Act. They are deployed prospect of convicting any individual in relation to this wherever the armed forces are based and, because the matter. I hope that in saying that I have been able to armed forces reflect society, are expected to deliver the answer fairly clearly the point that she put to me in her full spectrum of law enforcement capability and investigate intervention, but if she feels that I have not, I will gladly all types of crime. They are therefore trained to standards give way again. set by the National Policing Improvement Agency and, Diana Johnson: I am grateful to the Minister for where necessary, advanced technical training is provided allowing me to intervene again. If he is now saying, four by the civil police. years on, that the witness statements contradicted the Last year more than 2,500 cases were investigated by original account of what had happened, why was an the Royal Military Police alone and over 600 cases were investigation not taken forward against Mr Moore? It prosecuted by the Service Prosecuting Authority at seems very convenient that four years on the tables have courts martial. The average time to trial in 2011 was been turned on him and that this was not raised much 111 days, which compares favourably with, for example, earlier if there was evidence. magistrates courts, which have average completion rates of 144 days for all defendants, although I accept that it Mr Francois: I understand the hon. Lady’s question. is difficult to make direct comparisons because of the I do not think that there was evidence sufficient to unique nature of some service offences. prosecute Mr Moore for what happened in this case, just as I do not think there was evidence sufficient to I would like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to prosecute the accused, as it were. Given that the case the work of the service police. For the most part, they has been reviewed four times, and having looked into do an outstanding job in difficult and sometimes this, I am confident that the previous decisions were exceptionally dangerous circumstances. Of course they correct. However, I absolutely respect the hon. Lady’s sometimes get criticised—every police force in the country doggedness in wanting to get to the bottom of what has been criticised at one time or another—but it would happened on behalf of the member of the public she be wrong to draw broad conclusions from individual represents. I hope that she will feel that I have tried to cases. Some cases result in convictions, some in acquittals, answer her question directly. and some, for various reasons, do not proceed to trial. The Service Prosecuting Authority’s offer to meet That is the nature of any criminal justice system, whether Mr Moore further to explain its decision not to prosecute service or civilian. The key thing is for organisations to remains open. Under the circumstances, particularly acknowledge when mistakes are made and to learn from as explained to the House by the hon. Lady and the them. I can assure the hon. Lady that that is what has hon. Member for Cheltenham, I strongly encourage happened in this case. Lessons have been learned. Royal Mr Moore—the hon. Lady might want to play some Military Police investigative policy and practice is continually part in this—to take the Service Prosecuting Authority developed and adapted in the light of experience and up on this offer in the hope that he could then put these emerging civil police best practice. Furthermore, since questions to it directly and that that might enable it to Mr Moore raised his concerns, a code of practice has answer those questions and perhaps to help him to been introduced by the Ministry of Defence detailing come to terms with what has happened. I can only make the services to be provided by the armed forces to the that suggestion from this Dispatch Box, but I hope that victims of crime. This is designed to ensure that victims the hon. Lady’s constituent will take it up because, are properly supported and that at every stage of the given the long and complicated history of this case, it investigation and prosecutorial process they are kept would be helpful if he sat down with and put these fully informed of progress in their case. questions directly to the SPA so that it could reply Ultimately, we accept that there could have been directly to him. I can drop a hint in that regard, but I improvements in the way the case was initially investigated. cannot force the hon. Lady’s constituent to take it. I am conscious, however, that it has now been reviewed In conclusion, I hope that I have done my best to and considered by the Royal Military Police, by a senior address directly the points that have been put to me. I retired civilian detective, by the Service Prosecuting commend the hon. Lady and her friend on the Liberal Authority, and by the Solicitor-General, so it has been Democrat Benches, who is also my hon. Friend the looked at in great detail four times already. I have also Member for Cheltenham, for the way in which they discussed the case personally with the Provost Marshal have approached this case. I hope that I have done my (Army) as well as consulting staff from the independent best to put their concerns to rest. Service Prosecuting Authority. I have been assured that Question put and agreed to. the case has now been exhaustively investigated and that the correct decision not to prosecute was reached. 10.45 pm Part of the reason that decision has been made is that, House adjourned.

1WH 11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Rohingya Communities 2WH

Muslim men had raped and killed a Buddhist woman. Westminster Hall A provocative pamphlet, reporting the crime, was soon produced and circulated, and on 3 June a large mob Tuesday 11 September 2012 attacked a bus and killed 10 Muslim passengers. Reports suggest that the local police stood by and watched the [HYWEL WILLIAMS in the Chair] killing take place without intervening. In a few days, deep religious hatred that had been Rohingya Communities simmering for decades erupted. Social media spread Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting anti-Muslim propaganda and stoked the tensions, and be now adjourned.—(Mr Swire.) further horrific sectarian violence and rioting quickly unfolded. According to various reports, mobs—from 9.30 am both communities—armed with swords, sticks, knives Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab): It is a and iron rods, stormed villages on a spree of killing, privilege to open this debate and to serve under your burning homes and shops and desecrating places of chairmanship, Mr Williams. worship. It is difficult to get an entirely accurate picture, because of the restrictions, but some estimates have This is an issue of human rights, justice and desperate suggested that hundreds have been killed and that humanitarian need, to which we must respond. It is also 100,000 people have been displaced. one that has caused considerable concern to many of my constituents in Leicester South in recent weeks. I want to make it entirely clear that we condemn the Indeed, we had a public meeting there on this issue just violence on both sides and against both communities—it last Friday evening. I was pleased that there were is clear that the security forces have failed to provide representatives from all the major faiths in Leicester— security to both the sides in the conflict—but, overall, it Christian, Hindu, Sikh and Muslim—which brings home seems that the Rohingya people have been the main the fact that this is a matter of human rights. While I victims. Almost all the Rohingya people in Sittwe have the opportunity, I want to thank Leicester’s Federation were driven out of their homes as mobs burned down of Muslim Organisations and the Leicester Sikh Alliance, 10,000 houses, and as Human Rights Watch has reported, which have been doing a lot of work on this matter. the police and other paramilitary forces opened fire on May I put on the record my gratitude for the opportunity them with live ammunition as they tried to put out the to debate this matter in Parliament? Fairly or unfairly, flames and save their homes. there has been a perception—certainly, it was strongly Reports suggest that, in the north of the state, security expressed to me on Friday night in my constituency—that services have also been directly engaged in violence this humanitarian catastrophe has so far not received the towards the Rohingya, with allegations of mass killings, attention that it deserves and that it has not received mass arrests and looting. Days after the violence started, the exposure in the media that it demands. I commend security forces targeting predominantly Muslim areas the media outlets that have focused on it, particularly arrested many Rohingya men and boys who have not Channel 4, which produced a very moving report during been heard of since. the summer. I acknowledge and pay tribute to all the hon. Members here who have worked hard to raise The tensions were exacerbated by the suggestion, awareness of the issue, particularly my right hon. Friend made by the President of Burma at the height of the the Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan) and my hon. crisis, about handing over the Rohingya community to Friend the Member for Bethnal Green and Bow (Rushanara the UN High Commissioner for Refugees until they Ali), as well as the hon. Member for Bradford East could be settled in some third country. In response, the (Mr Ward), who is also in his place. However, there is a UN has called for an independent inquiry into the perception that the issue is not being talked about violence. Sadly, the Burmese Government have ignored enough. such calls, but it would be churlish not at least to welcome the commission that they have set up to investigate I acknowledge the statement made during the summer the violence. However, for that commission to command by the Foreign Secretary: international confidence, it must, as my right hon. “The UK remains committed to the people of Burma, and has Friend the Member for Tooting has recently argued, never wavered in its calls for the granting of full human rights to have some UN or independent involvement and treat all of its people, including the Rohingya.” the Rohingya community fairly throughout its investigation. Notwithstanding that statement, I have to say that there For example, there are already concerns that no one on is a perception that not enough is being done. I warmly the inquiry represents the Rohingya community. welcome the Minister to his new posting in the Foreign Office, but I hope that this debate will afford him a More broadly, the Burmese Government must commit chance to outline in detail the Government’s stance, themselves to prosecuting those who are found guilty of taken in the strongest possible terms. I am sure that we horrific violence. Of course, the displaced Rohingya are all looking forward to his response. community must be allowed back into their homes, As the UN has stated, the Rohingya people are without fear of reprisals, and given the necessary support among the most persecuted on earth. They are a people to rebuild their lives. Will the Minister outline what who are denied citizenship and whose human rights representations the FCO has made on those points? have been abused. I am sure that hon. Members are As I said earlier, estimates suggest that up 100,000 people familiar with the events during the summer, but I shall have been displaced, with many of those who fled the run through them quickly. This summer, deeply ugly violence ending up in makeshift camps, where many of sectarian violence broke out between the Buddhist Rakhine them do not have adequate shelter. It is estimated that community and the Muslim Rohingya people. The trigger 30,000 people are without access to clean drinking for the violence was the allegation in late May that three water and that the majority are without access to latrines. 3WH 11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Rohingya Communities 4WH

Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): I am very pleased In Bangladesh, some 30,000 Rohingya refugees have that my hon. Friend has secured this debate. Has he already lived for two decades in two of the world’s most heard, as I have, that one problem is that those who squalid camps, with estimates that a further 40,000 live have fled from their home areas have not been able to in informal camps. Again, the conditions in those camps cross into Bangladesh, which has made their position are characterised by overcrowding, widespread malnutrition, worse than it might have been had such an escape been especially among children, and the lack of clean water possible? and sanitation. Many say that the conditions are among the worst in any refugee camp in the world. Jonathan Ashworth: My right hon. Friend quite rightly makes an incredibly important point, and I hope to Sadly, humanitarian agencies’ access has been restricted, touch on that later. I also hope that the Minister will say with some even being expelled for fear that they will act something about Bangladesh and its response to this as magnets for further refugees. At the public meeting in crisis. Leicester on Friday night, an aid worker told me how he Malnutrition in the camps is a particular concern, had raised money for aid and medical supplies for the with very high levels of severe acute malnutrition among region, but was forbidden from delivering them when he children, especially those from the Rohingya community. arrived at Cox’s Bazar and was told to return home. It is clear that there is a desperate need for humanitarian Again, this is another desperate humanitarian situation. assistance for both the Rohingya community and, indeed, In replying, will the Minister update us on the latest the Rakhine community in the camps. However, the discussions that the UK Government have had with response has been hampered by restrictions on access, Bangladesh? In particular, will he tell us what pressure by threats and intimidation and by the arrest of some the Government are exerting on the country to demand UN and aid agency staff. I would therefore be grateful immediate access for the non-governmental organisations to the Minister if he made a commitment to increase to provide assistance to Rohingya refugees? What the diplomatic pressure on the Burmese regime to enable discussions has he had had with Indonesia, Thailand full humanitarian access to all the people of Rakhine, and other countries in the region to ensure the protection including the Rohingya community. of Rohingya refugees fleeing persecution? Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): May I add my thanks At the heart of the conflict is the underlying issue of to the hon. Gentleman for securing this debate? Some citizenship. The 1982 citizenship law recognises 135 national of my constituents in Bedford will be pleased that races in Burma, but excludes the Rohingya. Despite parliamentarians are debating this issue. living in Burma for generations, the 800,000-strong Rohingya population’s right to citizenship was removed. The hon. Gentleman rightly draws our attention The Burmese regime regularly describes the Rohingya to the difference between the British Government’s as illegal immigrants and has forced travel restrictions representations and their requirements. As we are all on them. The Rohingya have been denied land and property encouraging Burma to move towards democracy, will rights and have even had marriage and reproduction he comment on—perhaps he is coming on to this—what restrictions imposed on them. the real requirements are for us as a Parliament and for the British Government in relation to putting to the The horrific violence of the summer has brought the Burmese Government about what must be done for the outrageous citizenship law into sharp focus. Surely now Rohingya community if Burma is to achieve its full is the time for greater international pressure to be put status in the democratic family of nations? on the Burmese Government to repeal that law and to replace it with a new settlement based on human rights, Jonathan Ashworth: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman which recognises and respects the equal rights of all the for how he put his question. I hope to touch on such Burmese people and is in accordance with international issues in my speech, but this debate is a chance for the standards. In particular, a new settlement absolutely UK Government to take a stance in the strongest must comply with the universal declaration of human possible terms. I hope that they will continue to make rights, which states: representations, but I am also keen to hear from the “Everyone has the right to a nationality. No one shall be Minister how much further they can go. arbitrarily deprived of his nationality”. I would be grateful, too, for an update from the The Minister will be aware that 31 international NGOs Minister on the amount of aid funding that has been have called for a repeal of the citizenship law. I hope made available for such humanitarian assistance. Will that in his response he will condemn that discriminatory he tell us whether the Government have any plans to law and detail what pressure the Foreign Office, along increase the humanitarian aid in the future? I appreciate with its international counterparts, is putting on the that he comes from the Foreign Office rather than the Burmese regime to repeal it. Department for International Development, but if he could perhaps spell out the Government’s thinking on There are clearly human rights abuses and a humanitarian that, I am sure that we would all be grateful. crisis in the region. Many people feel, perhaps unfairly, On the point made by my right hon. Friend the that the UK Government could take a stronger public Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms), many of the stance. The Minister should use this opportunity today Rohingya have sought help in neighbouring Bangladesh, to reassure those who feel that the issue has been yet that country has refused to allow them to cross the neglected. I hope that he will confirm that the UK border. There are heartbreaking stories of boats containing Government’s policy is to continue to press the Burmese men, women and children arriving in Bangladesh being regime for immediate, unhindered access for humanitarian pushed back into sea during the rough monsoon rains. organisations to all affected areas. Human Rights Watch says that about 1,300 Rohingya I hope, too, that the Minister will confirm that the refugees have been pushed back into the sea. There is no UK Government will do all that they can to ensure that estimate yet of how many of them have lost their lives. humanitarian aid is delivered to the displaced and to 5WH Rohingya Communities11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Rohingya Communities 6WH those whose homes and property have been destroyed, of this debate. I suspect that many people who know regardless of their ethnicity or religion. That should be about the current situation only do so because of recent done without discrimination and on the basis of need. events in Burma, but, of course, it goes back much The Foreign Secretary confirmed to Parliament last further than that. I also thank the local Rohingya week that he has discussed these matters with Aung San community, Nijam and the Rohingya youth organisation Suu Kyi and opposition leaders. Will the Minister confirm in Burma for providing the information, some of which that the UK Government will continue to have those is pretty appalling. discussions, particularly given Aung San Suu Kyi’s new I apologise to all Members here because I will have to role as the chair of the rule of law, peace and stability leave this debate early to attend the Education Committee. committee? I thank Mr Williams for calling me to speak early and, Will the Minister tell us what stance the UK will take while it is not my customary practice, I will have to leave at the UN General Assembly? Will he commit to ensuring after my speech and so will not be here for the summing that the wording in any forthcoming annual UN Assembly up. The Select Committee is discussing the GCSE issue, resolution references the violations of international law, which is important across the country. recommends repeal of the 1982 citizenship law and We are here because of the atrocities that took place strongly condemns the sectarian violence? In the event in early June. No doubt we have all had those awful of there being no moves to repeal the citizenship law, to nightmares from which we wake up in a cold sweat and allow humanitarian access and to end the abuses of then we come out of the nightmare, but of course for human rights, what would be the Government’s attitude many of the Rohingya living in Burma and indeed in to the President of Burma’s invitation to visit the UK? Bangladesh there is no waking up; for them, every single day is a nightmare. What is worst of all is that Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): I congratulate my there are pretty powerful allegations that the very people hon. Friend on securing this debate. I am sure that the that we rely on in these situations for protection—the meeting that he had in Leicester is one that could be security forces—are not only standing idly by but in reproduced in cities throughout the United Kingdom. many cases perpetrating some of the atrocities themselves. There is great anger and a sense of outrage in my Newport constituency about what is happening to the We know that this situation does not just go back to Rohingya people. Does he think that there will be any 3 June and the murders on the bus. It goes back much progress in influencing the Government in Malaysia, further than that and it really stems from the view held who have, as I understand it, taken in about 20,000 by far too many people in Burma that the Rohingya are Rohingya people? The present regime in Burma is seeking not true Burmese. The Rohingya in Burma were denied more international approval than at any time in decades. citizenship in 1982 and that stateless position has caused Could we not use that opportunity to ensure that it them not only problems in Burma itself but, of course, introduces policies that are far more humane to their in Bangladesh, and it has resulted in a policy of—there minorities? is no other phrase to describe it—ethnic cleansing that has taken place over a long period of time. There is no Jonathan Ashworth: I am grateful to my hon. Friend other way of describing a deliberate policy of trying for his comments about Leicester. While I have the to rid a country of a group of people from within that opportunity, I should tell him that he has featured country. prominently in the Leicester Mercury recently because It has already been said that up to 100,000 people of his biography of the late David Taylor, which we are have been displaced. The worrying thing is that, although all looking forward to reading. On his substantive point that situation has now provoked outrage, people knew on Malaysia, I entirely agree with him and hope that the about what was going on long before now. Brad Adams, Minister will pick it up in his response. the Asian director of Human Rights Watch, has said: This year should have been one of hope for Burma. “If the atrocities in Arakan had happened before the government’s We all know that 2011 has seen a degree of transition reform process started, the international reaction would have from military regime to civilian Government. I have no been swift and strong. But the international community appears doubt that we all welcome the small tentative steps that to be blinded by a romantic narrative of sweeping change in Burma is taking to democracy and that we were all Burma, signing new trade deals and lifting sanctions even while thrilled at the release of Aung San Suu Kyi, so it would the abuses continue.” be deeply wrong of us not to commend Burma for the People knew about what was happening in Burma long progress that has been made. Equally, however, we before 3 June and the west—the international community should be in no doubt that, for Burma to become truly —did very little to deal with that situation. democratic, it must celebrate the diversity of its people, and that must include the Rohingya. I have known about the Rohingya from about three or four years ago, when some of those who were in registered Bangladeshi camps—of course, only a minority 9.47 am of the Rohingya in Bangladesh are in registered camps— Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD): I thank the and who were consequently part of the United Nations hon. Member for Leicester South (Jonathan Ashworth) gateway programme came to Bradford. We were very for initiating this debate. I know that it is customary to happy to welcome them and they have settled in very say that in such debates, but can it ever have been better well. Three cohorts—three groups—have now come to deserved? There is a continuous need to remind people Bradford, and they have not only settled in very well but of that persecuted minority, the Rohingya, because have been made to feel very welcome. However, their news of it seldom reaches the national press. There is arrival has brought home to all of us in Bradford a little international recognition of the atrocities that it problem that was happening thousands of miles away faces. I am pleased that Burma and Bangladesh are part that many people were completely unaware of. 7WH Rohingya Communities11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Rohingya Communities 8WH

[Mr David Ward] the suspension of sanctions. However, the continuing suspension of sanctions must be conditional on how I wrote to the Foreign Secretary on 10 August following much progress is made in respect of human rights and representations that I had received from my local Rohingya the transition to democracy, which has been slow and community and I was pleased to see him make a difficult. statement—I think that it was made on 13 August— From a development perspective, Burma remains one outlining the Government’s position. However, we all of the poorest countries in Asia, with widespread poverty know what the demands we ought to make should be. and a vulnerability to shocks or crises. Much of the First, clear, effective and lawful steps need to be taken population lack the means to meet their basic needs and to prevent further violence in Burma. Secondly, as has deal with their major health problems. In addition, already been mentioned, full and unhindered humanitarian there remain concerns about the extent of the power access needs to be granted, because even the non- that the military still exerts. Hundreds of political prisoners governmental organisations are being denied access to remain in prison and, of course, there is the continuing the Rohingya. We need access to all of the areas that are conflict with some ethnic minority communities. affected. Thirdly, we need to ensure that members of As my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester South the affected communities can safely return to their and the hon. Member for Bradford East (Mr Ward) homes—and they are their homes. We need to support have already pointed out, civilians in provinces such as the restitution of their property, and reparations should Kachin and Arakan talk about systematic human rights be made to them for the damage that has been done. abuses, including forced labour and displacement, torture However, more than anything else we need a long-term and extra-judicial killings. There are approximately 800,000 solution to the problems that the Rohingya face and we to 1 million Rohingya living in the province of Arakan, need to recognise the human rights abuses that have where many of them have lived for generations. However, been conducted against them for more than 30 years. they have faced a long history of marginalisation and I have a final message. The hon. Member for Leicester discrimination. As my hon. Friend and the hon. Gentleman South covered so many areas that he has enabled me to also said, that marginalisation and discrimination was make a shorter speech than I had planned. However, made concrete in law in the form of the 1982 citizenship the real reason that I am here in Westminster Hall today law, which rendered Rohingya in Burma non-citizens is not because of headlines in newspapers in June, July and virtually stateless. and August, but because of the situation that this persecuted When violence erupted between the Rohingya Muslim group of people has faced for more than 30 years. And community and the Buddhist Rakhine community in we should remember not only the 100,000 people who June, both sides committed atrocious acts of violence have been displaced in recent months but the 250,000 and abuse. The Burmese Government interceded, but and more Rohingya who have been displaced as a they did not simply put an end to the violence; instead, consequence of the persecution in Burma during the they helped perpetuate a cycle of sectarian and state- past 30 years and who are living in atrocious conditions sponsored violence against the Rohingya. in the Bangladesh camps. We must not forget all those people. As has been said, there are serious allegations against the Burmese Government forces—of killings, torture, 9.54 am rape, mass arrests and forced displacement—from both local people and human rights organisations such as Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab): I Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch. The congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester UN special rapporteur on human rights visited the South (Jonathan Ashworth) on securing the debate province of Arakan in August and reported seeing about this ongoing tragedy. As he said, we are here burned villages, which meant that many people had today to speak about an issue that many people in been left without homes or shelter. Estimates place the Britain may be unaware of but that deserves our number of people who were displaced at around 100,000, attention—the treatment of the Rohingya communities the majority of whom were Rohingya. The conflict has in Burma and Bangladesh. It affects many thousands of left many people without homes to return to, or made people and it goes to the heart of our belief in ourselves them too scared even to return home. in Britain as strong advocates of respect for human According to some of the few aid agencies that have rights, who speak up for those who do not have a voice managed to see those people, those who have been and support those in need. displaced or have fled have often been forced into Britain has a long history of being an advocate for camps that are little better than prisons. The camps are change in Burma and, as colleagues have said, we have in squalid places with little or no access to basic services seen substantial progress in Burma in the past few such as health care, sanitation, food and education. years. Pro-democracy candidates such as Aung San Suu However, instead of seeking peace and reconciliation, Kyi have been elected to Parliament. That is progress, the Burmese Government have asked the UN for assistance even if there are still serious concerns about the validity in trying to remove all Rohingya from Burma and place of elections in which a quarter of seats are reserved for them in third countries. If they are serious about reform, the military.As hon. Members know, hundreds of political they should instead eliminate the discriminatory laws prisoners have been released, media restrictions have that validate that kind of violence. been eased and the process of political reconciliation The violence and persecution by the Burmese with many ethnic minorities has begun. Government has forced many aid workers to flee and Those reforms have encouraged the international has made it difficult to deliver aid. Tens of thousands community, including our own country, to strengthen of people are in need of support, but getting to them is its ties with a country that was previously one of the still difficult. So that the disaster does not worsen, the most isolated in the world. That process has included Burmese Government need to allow immediate and 9WH Rohingya Communities11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Rohingya Communities 10WH unimpeded humanitarian access, not just to the camps, Government of Bangladesh to fulfil their responsibilities but to all areas of Arakan state, where the violence has to the Rohingya communities that have sought refuge in impacted on everyone’s lives, whether they be Muslim that country. or Buddhist, Rohingya or Rakhine. The level of violence in Arakan state has fallen, but Alongside immediate access, there needs to be a truly there remains a serious humanitarian crisis that needs independent and impartial inquiry—as has already been urgent attention if we are to stem the cycle of violence mentioned—to look closely at the human rights abuses, and killing. We have a chance right now, while there are and punishment must be applied to the perpetrators. It opportunities in Burma, to help encourage the kinds of must be an inquiry that can establish the truth and start changes that are needed to see the process of reform the process of reconciliation, hopefully to avoid this and reconciliation in Burma flourish. That is essential if happening again. As my hon. Friend the Member for we are to ensure the protection not just of the Rohingya Leicester South mentioned, the British Government community in Burma, but of the many other communities should continue to use all the public and private levers that still face oppression and discrimination. The UK is they have to ensure that that happens, and encourage building strong links with the Government of Burma, our international partners to do the same. As we continue but we must use those links to put pressure on the to strengthen our relationship with the Burmese Government to respect human rights and to ensure that Government, including through the suspension of sanctions, they are serious about the issues, particularly when lives we must expect progress on reform, particularly regarding are being lost and violence is being perpetrated, and such human rights abuses and state-sponsored violence. that the state genuinely is not taking sides but acting as a neutral, honest broker. The British Government must I want to turn to the situation in Bangladesh. Violence publicly hold the Government of Burma to account for has been an all-too-common feature in the life of Rohingya how they relate to the sanctions, and we must work with communities in Burma, and in the ’80s and ’90s it our international partners to exert pressure in requiring, forced hundreds of thousands to flee to Bangladesh. as my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester South said, Many ended up along Bangladesh’s border with Burma, an independent inquiry into what has happened in where they have been stuck in camps for a long time. Arakan state. Since 1992, however, Bangladesh has refused to allow This is an important time for Burma to show the them to be registered as refugees, leaving them yet again world that it is serious about human rights and democracy. without rights and support. All but 30,000 are denied The situation in Arakan state, and the plight of the refugee status, leaving 200,000 without access to refugee Rohingya Muslims in particular, highlights that there is rights, or help such as food rations from the World much further to go. As a country that cares about Food Programme or health care and education provided continued developments and wants to see progress in by the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees. Burma, it is vital that we act as a critical friend who will support the Government to make that transition but Alongside that, the Government of Bangladesh have will be firm about the need to respect the rights of a policy of reducing the so-called attractiveness of the minorities and those who continue to suffer at the camps, refusing help to improve the squalid and hands of perpetrators of violence and hate. We will overcrowded conditions. That is likely to cause a further hold the Government to account, and I call on the humanitarian disaster, and it is in direct contravention Minister to exert pressure on the Government to act of international law, which requires the Government to now. recognise the human rights of everyone within their borders. At the very least, that must mean allowing Hywel Williams (in the Chair): Six Members are organisations such as the UN to provide basic humanitarian seeking to catch my eye. I hope to start the winding-up support. As the situation worsens, with reports that at speeches at 10.30 am, so I ask Members to keep their least 1,300 Rohingya, including children, trying to flee remarks to the point so that all voices can be heard. the violence were turned back at the border, with many international organisations estimating that the numbers could be higher, we need to act immediately. 10.7 am Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): It is a pleasure to In early 2011, during the visit of the Prime Minister serve under your chairmanship, Mr Williams, and I of Bangladesh to the UK, my right hon. Friend the congratulate the hon. Member for Leicester South leader of the Labour party and I raised directly with her (Jonathan Ashworth) on securing the debate. I will the plight of Rohingya refugees in her country. It is confine my remarks to just three areas, because previous incredibly disappointing that the position of the speakers have covered the ground so thoroughly. Government of Bangladesh has not changed. Bangladesh benefited from the generosity of its neighbours during Violent conflict between communities, such as we the 1971 war of independence, when hundreds of thousands have seen in Arakan state, is a disaster for all concerned, of people—potentially more—were made refugees. I and especially so when the communities include some call on the Government of Bangladesh to reconsider of the poorest people, who have no means of recovering the issue, and I hope that the Minister will put pressure from the loss of property or livelihood, let alone the on them to act humanely and step up to their responsibilities. harm to, and loss of life in their families. However, it is particularly hard to bear circumstances in which The international community should follow the lead Government authorities are seen to be either indifferent of the US Government in shining a light on the decisions to the suffering, or to be making it worse, as in this that the Government of Bangladesh make and pushing case. Whatever else a Government do or do not do for for them to live up to their moral and legal responsibilities. their people, they must treat them fairly and without As the largest bilateral donor to Bangladesh, it is crucial discrimination. There are clear reports of arbitrary that the UK Government apply further pressure on the violence, including rape, looting and torture, by police 11WH Rohingya Communities11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Rohingya Communities 12WH

[Jeremy Lefroy] There have been calls for the invitation to be withdrawn, which I understand, but I believe that, perhaps with the and security forces. It is also clear that Rohingya who conditions that have already been mentioned, a visit have been displaced are, as a result of their ethnicity, would provide an opportunity to raise very publicly and not receiving assistance. That has to stop, and the very strongly the plight of the Rohingya and others in Burmese Government must allow full access to Burma. humanitarian agencies and independent observers. As the hon. Member for Leicester South so eloquently We are not trying to excuse anyone—everyone who put it, this year should have been a year of hope for commits violence is at fault here—but behind the conflict Burma. Indeed, there have been many welcome moves lies the pernicious effect of the 1982 citizenship law, towards democracy. Above all, given the UK’s history under which the Rohingya, who are Muslim, are denied in Burma, we should support those moves, but we citizenship, even though the land has been their home cannot simply stand by and ignore what is happening. I for generations. Not only that but, as previous speakers urge the Minister to make it clear in the strongest have said, the President recently asked the UN for help possible terms that the UK Government expect the in resettling the Rohingya in other countries, which is in Burmese Government to take action to protect the clear contradiction of the universal declaration on human Rohingya and other communities in Burma whom they rights. are currently failing to protect. In the 21st century, it cannot be the case that a country refuses to recognise as citizens people who have Hywel Williams (in the Chair): I have been informed lived there for generations. I urge the UK Government that we may start the winding-up speeches at 10.40, so and the European Union to continue making it clear to there is slightly more time, but I appeal to hon. Members the Burmese Government that reviewing, reforming or to be to the point. repealing the law is essential to ensuring that there is no discrimination. Bangladesh, too, as the hon. Member for Bethnal 10.13 am Green and Bow (Rushanara Ali) made clear, needs to provide under international law a safe sanctuary to Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab): It is a pleasure people who flee persecution and violence in Burma. to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Williams. I promise Indeed, the international community needs to support to be brief, because I realise that other Members want Bangladesh in doing so and to support all who are to speak. displaced. I welcome the work of the Department for I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester International Development on that. South (Jonathan Ashworth) on securing this important Finally, it is not only the Rohingya in Burma who are debate. Many of my constituents, from all backgrounds suffering as a result of their ethnicity and religion, and all faiths, have been in touch to highlight their although, perhaps because of the citizenship law, they concerns about what is happening to the Rohingya have suffered the most. The Christian Chin minority community, which they have seen on their screens. and others have also been under great pressure for decades. State-supported persecution because of people’s We are recognising a tragedy taking place on the religious views, lack of religious views or ethnicity must other side of the world in which innocent families are be confronted wherever it occurs. As a country, we must losing their lives. Given today’s significance, we should speak out whenever that happens, whether in a state all put on record our thoughts and prayers for the that is predominantly Buddhist, Muslim, Christian, families who lost loved ones on 9/11 or in other tragedies Hindu or of no religion. across the world. I applaud the UK Government’s strong stance, the My constituents, and people across the world, will be Foreign Secretary’s statement and the United Kingdom’s shocked by the images of death and destruction in effort at the United Nations. I welcome DFID’s constant Burma. Hundreds of people have lost their lives, and work in Burma over many years, both under the previous hundreds of thousands of people have been displaced. Government and the current Government. Working Human Rights Watch, for example, has highlighted with the poorest people is especially important, whether concerns that the Burmese authorities in many cases they suffered the cyclone in 2010, displacement today stood by and watched, and in some cases took part, as or, in the east of the country, the real threat that malaria the tragedies occurred. It is incumbent on the UK resistant to artemisinin, which is the only effective treatment, Government and the international community to tell could spread unless it is countered on the Burmese-Thai the Burmese authorities that they must fulfil their border. That is why DFID’s work in Burma is so international obligations and, more importantly, their important, irrespective of the current policies of the basic human rights obligations to every single one of Burmese Government. DFID is there to help the world’s their citizens. poorest people. We had the pleasure of having Aung San Suu Kyi How much pressure should the UK Government here, which was a great day for us and a great beacon of place on Burma? The Prime Minister has invited hope for anyone who believes in freedom and democracy. the President of Burma to the UK. As the previous Democracy is not only about being able to vote or stand Minister of State, the hon. Member for Taunton Deane as a candidate; with democracy come responsibilities (Mr Browne), wrote in a letter to a colleague of mine in such as access to justice, recognition of fairness and the European Parliament on 10 August, a visit will be equality for all and, hopefully, opportunity for all. “a valuable opportunity to continue the Prime Minister’s dialogue Sadly, that is not the case for the Rohingya community with the President and to stress the need to resolve the many in Burma, who are denied citizenship and must get issues outstanding.” permission to marry, have children or leave their local 13WH Rohingya Communities11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Rohingya Communities 14WH villages. That situation is not acceptable in the 21st century and violence against the minority, even though the in any country, and it is incumbent on us to condemn minority might not be the cause of the problems perceived those actions. by the majority. The circumstances and responsibilities of neighbouring Through hon. Members’ efforts, Ministers have put countries are also interesting. Bangladesh has many on record the approaches that they have made to the challenges from poverty and budgetary and cost constraints, Burmese and Bangladeshi Governments. Although those but it also has an obligation to the international community. overtures are on record, what have been the Governments’ We support the Bangladeshi Government and their responses? To reinforce the questions asked by other work to fight poverty and lack of opportunity in hon. Members, how can the United Nations best use its Bangladesh, and we must help them through this difficult influence to enable peace and reconciliation in that part period and, hopefully, ensure that they fulfil their of the world? What can be done about the refugee international obligations. status of the Rohingya in Bangladesh? Can the Foreign I recently wrote to the Bangladeshi high commissioner, and Commonwealth Office and the Department for who kindly responded by saying that his Government International Development do anything more to support are doing all they can to support the 25,000 Rohingya those people in difficult circumstances? refugees in various camps across the country. He assured The Rohingya community has historically and effectively me that Bangladesh will fulfil its obligations under the been made stateless by the actions of the Burmese and UN charter and has repeatedly raised the issue in regional Bangladeshi Governments. They are now being persecuted and religious forums across the world. without redress, save for the efforts of the United Kingdom The one sad thing is that the high commissioner’s Government and international agencies such as the response shows that there is still work to be done. He United Nations. I congratulate the Minister on his new concluded by saying that he thinks there is a Burma-only position and urge him to use it to make the most of the problem that can be solved only by the Burmese themselves. channels available to the Government to resolve the He said that the Rohingya population in Bangladesh problem. causes drug dealing, arms dealing, murder and looting. He labelled the Rohingya an economic and social burden. There is still some work to be done to ensure that 10.21 am Bangladesh fulfils its obligations. Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab): I appreciate the I welcome the Minister, for whom I have a few closing opportunity to speak, Mr Williams. I thank my hon. questions. What discussions has he had with representatives Friend the Member for Leicester South (Jonathan of the Department for International Development on Ashworth) for securing this extremely important and ongoing humanitarian support for the Rohingya timely debate. The issue has been raised with me, as I community? What discussions has he had with the am sure that it has been raised with other hon. Members, Burmese authorities on the commission that has been by a number of my constituents, and it is increasingly set up to investigate the recent violence against the and rightly moving up the international agenda. Rohingya community? What discussions has he had The intolerance shown by the Burmese state towards with the Bangladeshi authorities? What steps are being the Rohingya community is completely and utterly taken, alongside other international partners, to raise unacceptable. As my hon. Friends have pointed out, we this important issue at the UN Security Council? What must do all that we can to urge the Government to put action can be taken from there? more pressure on the Burmese Government to terminate the persecution of the Rohingya people. The atrocities 10.17 am are appalling, as my hon. Friends have outlined. The Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): It is Burmese Government must be held to account for how always a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, they are treating the Muslim people. Injustice is being Mr Williams. I look forward to the debate you will be done to the Rohingya people. As has been outlined, the leading later, although I doubt whether I will be able to 1982 citizenship law is completely unacceptable. The take part. security services in Burma are not only failing to intervene I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Leicester South but are acting against the Rohingya people. There is a (Jonathan Ashworth), who has done a great service by complete failure to protect those citizens of Burma. enabling the House to show itself in its finest tradition Turning to the situation in Bangladesh, I urge the by speaking up for a minority in a distant part of the Government of Bangladesh to treat the refugees with world that finds itself greatly persecuted and its human much more compassion and to allow the United Nations rights violated. I also thank hon. Members who, through to intervene in the refugee situation to see precisely other parliamentary processes such as parliamentary what is going on. The Minister might wish to consider questions, have enabled Ministers to put on record their this important point. As Bangladesh approaches a general approach to this problem. election, tensions are arising between the Awami League, I was not aware of the extent of the issue until which is currently in power, and the Bangladesh Nationalist recently, but, unfortunately, the pattern with the Rohingya Party. If we are not careful, the Rohingya people will in Burma can be seen across the world. Minorities often become a political football in Bangladesh. That should find themselves isolated in their own country. Where a raise concerns for us. Perhaps we could urge the Bangladesh minority has a different ethnicity, sometimes visibly so, Government to reduce the tensions between those two from the majority, where a minority follows a different main political parties involving the Rohingya people. religion or religious practices from the majority or where a minority has a different language from the Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): I welcome what majority, the majority, feeling under pressure, often the hon. Gentleman is saying, and I congratulate the exhibits frustration that manifests through oppression hon. Member for Leicester South (Jonathan Ashworth) 15WH Rohingya Communities11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Rohingya Communities 16WH

[Andrew Stephenson] that as many as 650 people could be dead. Whatever the figures are, the issue is that cruel and vicious ethnic on securing this debate. The treatment of the Rohingya violence is taking place, and we must see what our people in Burma has raised concerns among many of Government can do to help to end it. We have a my constituents. As someone who spent time in Bangladesh responsibility on the world stage. last summer, helping to teach English in a rural school, A state of emergency has been declared. In July 2012, I have been in contact with numerous non-governmental the Myanmar Government asserted that the Rohingya organisations in Bangladesh, particularly Islamic Relief, minority group, classified as stateless Bengali Muslims which is incredibly keen to help the Rohingya. Will the from Bangladesh, is not included among its more than hon. Gentleman say more about what he thinks we can 130 ethnic races and has no claim to Myanmar citizenship, do to support NGOs such as Islamic Relief in helping which is why the Rohingya do not receive the protection those people? that they should. Has the Minister had discussions on the matter? If so, what assurances can we give to the Simon Danczuk: It is right and proper that both the Rohingya people about their citizenship and the protection FCO and DFID play a part in working with NGOs in that they should receive but clearly are not receiving? Bangladesh to provide the assistance and support that The Rohingya have been displaced and are living in many Rohingya people who reside in Bangladesh are, camps. Political leaders are working to expel them from sadly, missing. the country. Burma’s President, Thein Sein, has attempted I have two final points to make. First, we must urge to hand over the group to the UN refugee agency. Have all political parties in Bangladesh to unite in helping our Government had any contact with the UN about the Rohingya. I also urge our Government to press all the issue? Bangladesh, already home to an estimated Governments in the region to provide justice for the Rohingya refugee population of 300,000, has turned Rohingya people. away more migrants. It has sealed its 200 km border with Myanmar, as it is unable to cope with the strain of more refugees. What humanitarian aid have the British 10.25 am Government given, either on their own or with the EU Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the or UN? Clearly, a crisis is unfolding very quickly and hon. Member for Leicester South (Jonathan Ashworth) many people are under pressure. on bringing this issue to the House. It takes a crisis to In conclusion, it is clear that these problems must be bring such matters to everyone’s attention, as he said. addressed and that this cannot be done by Government I have spoken in the House on many occasions about officials washing their hands of a sector of their people. the persecution of ethnic groups, particularly Christians. I have stood in support of many ethnic groups that are I remind Members that a small Christian minority in persecuted because of their religion, skin colour, culture the area has also been persecuted over the years. Perhaps or history. I urge the Minister to respond to the ethnic the Minister will give us some indication about that human rights crisis and to see what we can do to help. when he responds. I congratulate him on his elevation. Two years in Northern Ireland maketh a man, and here 10.30 am he is in a new job. Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op): I will heed your advice to be mindful of the time, Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): I Mr Williams, and I will be brief. congratulate the hon. Gentleman on highlighting the I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester suffering of the Rohingya people as well as drawing South (Jonathan Ashworth) for securing the debate. His attention to the ongoing persecution of Christian minorities. excellent speech put the issue in its proper context and Later today, at the all-party parliamentary group on acknowledged the perception that it has perhaps not Burma, I will be chairing a presentation by the Chin received the attention it deserves. The situation is extremely Human Rights Organisation of its report, “Threats to important to a number of my constituents, some of our existence: persecution of ethnic Chin Christians in whom brought it to my attention when I recently attended Burma”, which highlights the fact that that ongoing Eid celebrations. I was impressed by the passion and persecution has not got the attention that it deserves. awareness of the young people who told me the extremely sad story of the Rohingya minority in Burma. Denied Jim Shannon: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that their citizenship and basic rights, they face a sectarian intervention and agree wholeheartedly that the issues feud that has already left many dead and many more must be highlighted. I am conscious of the need for homeless. religious liberty for Christians, as well as for Muslims or The reported response of the Burmese security forces Buddhists. That opportunity should be available to all, is extremely troubling. There have been reports of police but in many cases it is not. and soldiers standing by and watching as violence unfolds. The 2012 state riots highlighted the ongoing conflicts In some cases, there have been reports of them actually between ethnic groups in Rakhine state in Myanmar. At antagonising the situation by participating in the violence the same time, they show that the UN and our Government directly, and that has often been followed by arbitrary have a role to play in the crisis. What contact has the arrests of Rohingya Muslim men. This has revived the Minister had with the UN? Have the British Government worrying association between the Burmese state and applied pressure through the European Union on behalf summary detentions at a time when most observers of the Burmese people? have welcomed the fall in politically motivated arrests. The Myanmar authorities report that the violence There is a concern that the recent progress in Burma between ethnic groups has left 78 people dead, 87 injured may tempt the international community to downplay and thousands of homes destroyed. Other figures indicate the situation. That would be a mistake, and I think we 17WH Rohingya Communities11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Rohingya Communities 18WH all sincerely hope that that will not happen. There is no that 90,000 people have been displaced by the violence. doubt that this is an important time for developments I think my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester South in Burma, but we must be very clear with the Burmese said that up to 100,000 had been displaced. There is Government. If they really want to become a fully clearly a humanitarian crisis and I hope the Minister accepted member of the international community, then will tell us what steps the Foreign and Commonwealth their response to human rights abuses must be completely Office and the Department for International Development unambiguous. The protection of basic human rights is are taking to ensure that victims are receiving the fundamental to any democratic country, and it would humanitarian assistance they clearly need, what access be tragic if this situation were to undermine the progress there is to the camps, and how much aid the British of a country that otherwise appears to be moving in the Government are prepared to contribute. right direction. A stable, democratically elected government Much of the blame for the violence against the Rohingya in Burma that respects basic civil liberties and defends community has been attributed to other ethnic groups all of its citizens, regardless of ethnicity, will not just be within Rakhine, but disturbing evidence suggests that good for all the people of Burma, but the wider region the Burmese border security force, army and police are too. also involved and culpable. Human Rights Watch has I hope the Burmese Government will act promptly to condemned the authorities for standing by and watching, bring an end to these atrocities and to put right the indifferent to what is going on. Amnesty International injustices that Rohingya Muslims have suffered for many reports that years. I hope that Her Majesty’s Government will continue “Hundreds of mostly men and boys have been detained, with to do what it can to help secure that. nearly all held incommunicado, and some subject to ill-treatment.” It describes the arrests as “arbitrary and discriminatory”. 10.32 am Worryingly, it seems that political prisoner numbers are Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): It is a pleasure, once again on the rise. as ever, to see you in the Chair, Mr Williams. As part of the package of reform in Burma, we have I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester seen the release of political prisoners and a relaxation South (Jonathan Ashworth)on securing the debate. I, of press censorship. In Rakhine, however, a different too, have been contacted by constituents who are concerned, picture seems to be emerging. During my visit the plight particularly by what they saw on the Channel 4 programme of the Rohingya was raised at virtually every meeting, about the plight of the Rohingya community. Everyone but there is a lack of support for the community across who has spoken today has done an excellent job in the board. Although we talk about this as being a conveying to the Chamber some of the problems faced Muslim issue—certainly the British Muslim community by the community and some of the human rights abuses has done a lot to bring it to people’s attention—we were being committed against it. I welcome the Minister to told that it was an issue of what was deemed to be his new role. I suspect that we will be spending quite a illegal immigration, and not that the Rohingya community lot of time in Westminster Hall together in such debates is a Muslim community. I am sure that that would be in the coming months. disputed by many within the Rohingya community, but I was fortunate to visit Burma in July, with the it comes down to the basic issue of what country they Westminster Foundation for Democracy, to see the belong to and their disputed legal status in Burma. progress that has undoubtedly been made by the regime, I had a positive and informative discussion with and to discuss the need for continuing reforms if Burma representatives of the Rohingya community. One question is to be a true democracy where political freedoms and I posed to them was whether they would qualify for human rights are respected, where the rule of law is protection under the UN declaration on the rights of firmly established, and where communities are not torn indigenous peoples. They have not passed that hurdle apart by conflict. It is important to note how far Burma yet, and it is debatable whether they would. Some has come in a very short space of time. There was a would say that the 1982 citizenship law was passed by feeling of optimism from everyone I spoke to, particularly the military government specifically to exclude the Rohingya when I met Aung San Suu Kyi and other newly elected population from Burmese citizenship. MPs who had won by-elections earlier this year. There I do not think that anyone else has gone into any is a sense that the genie is out of the bottle and that detail about that law. It categorises people into three there will be no return to the former repression, but groups. Full citizens are those who belong to one of the obviously there is a very long way to go and further eight specified national races, or whose ancestors settled progress to be made. before the British occupation in 1823. Obviously, the The problems faced by ethnic minority communities Rohingya do not come into that category. Associate were a key issue we discussed. I think I am right in citizens who applied before the 1982 Act came into saying that approximately 43% of the population effect qualify under the previous 1948 law. For the most in Burma comes from a minority community. Conflicts part, the Rohingya would not meet that criterion either. in some states, such as Kachin, Karen and, of course, Finally, naturalised citizens are required to provide Rakhine, are a graphic reminder that there is still a long conclusive evidence that they or their parents’ residency waytogoinBurma. in Burma predates independence in 1948. Some of the I wish to give as much time as possible for the Rohingya community that I met have generations who Minister’s winding-up speech so that other hon. Members go back that far, but a lot more have arrived more have the chance to intervene, so I will not go through recently. Those who have at least one parent qualifying the problems faced by the Rohingya community again. under one of those categories can become naturalised As hon. Members have said, villages have been destroyed citizens if they are at least 18 years old and speak one of by fire, and we have heard about rapes and the brutal the national languages. That does not include the dialect murders of children. The World Food Programme estimates spoken by the Rohingya, so even if they manage to 19WH Rohingya Communities11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Rohingya Communities 20WH

[Kerry McCarthy] It is worrying that Bangladesh has now stopped three aid agencies, Médecins Sans Frontières, Action Against prove that they meet one of those other categories, the Hunger and Muslim Aid, from providing aid, claiming language criterion excludes them. That means that the that Rohingya are in Bangladesh illegally. They are Rohingya are, in effect, left stateless or classed as resident going backwards and forwards across the border and foreigners without any legal status. Many of them have are regarded as illegal immigrants in both cases. What little formal documentation, so even if their roots in contact has there been between the UK and Bangladesh Burma go back pre-1948, it will be difficult for them to regarding the principle of non-refoulement and prove that. humanitarian access? Has the Minister tried to encourage Human Rights Watch, in its report, “The Government a dialogue between the Bangladesh and Burmese Could Have Stopped This”, suggests that many of authorities? That is what is needed at the moment to those who had any paperwork would have lost it in the deal with the immediate humanitarian crisis, because fires earlier this summer. That organisation has received the refugees have nowhere to go. reports from some Rohingya that the authorities confiscated Burma should be praised for the steps that it has their ID. Clearly, the Rohingya people are in a Catch-22 taken towards democracy, but it still has a long way to situation now. There is no way that they can prove that go. The progress is fragile and grave human rights they meet the citizenship requirements under the current violations remain, including but not limited to the law. They are, in effect, stateless; they cannot prove that persecution of ethnic and religious minorities. The President they have the right to be citizens of any other country. I must prove that his Government are committed to will mention Bangladesh in a moment. addressing those violations and the UK must demonstrate, Will the Minister say what discussions there have when the Burmese President visits this country, that all been with the Burmese Government regarding the 1982 due representations are made and that this matter is law and, given that Rohingya children born in Burma flagged on the political agenda. I am sure that the are denied citizenship of any nation, what representations Minister wants to update us on all those issues in his have been made regarding article 7 of the convention on response. the rights of the child? Jonathan Ashworth: Historically, the Burmese 10.44 am Government were, perhaps, more sympathetic towards The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth citizenship rights in relation to the Rohingya. The first Office (Mr Hugo Swire): Mr Williams, I am grateful for President of Burma said that the serving under your chairmanship in my first outing “Muslims of Arakan certainly belong to the indigenous races for the Foreign Office. Like other hon. Members, I am of Burma. If they do not belong to the indigenous races, we also grateful to the hon. Member for Leicester South (Jonathan cannot be taken as an indigenous races.” Ashworth) for requesting this debate and for his providing In the past there has been a more understanding attitude me with the opportunity, at an early stage, to give the towards the Rohingya. It is important that we get that first Government speech on this important issue for on the record. many years. Kerry McCarthy: That shows clearly why the 1982 I recognise the important role that this Parliament Act was such a backward step: by establishing the continues to play in supporting both human rights and principle that there are eight national races, it went back democracy in Burma. Many of my colleagues have on what the then President said. Review and reform of worked tirelessly for many years to ensure that the the 1982 Act is crucial to dealing with the Rohingya’s international spotlight remains firmly focused on events situation. in Burma. The establishment by the President of a commission I agree with the hon. Member for Brecon and to investigate the violence in Rakhine state was welcomed Radnorshire (Roger Williams), who said that this debate by the Foreign Office Minister, the hon. Member for shows Parliament at its best in seeking to protect minorities North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt), who does not in far-flung parts of the world. The discrimination cover Burma, but deals with human rights issues—or faced by the Rohingya people has long been an issue of did at the time. He issued a statement welcoming the serious concern for the Government. announcement, emphasising that it was crucial for The hon. Member for Leicester South said that he the commission to be impartial and inclusive. Will the did not think that what was going on with the Rohingya Minister say what involvement the Foreign Office has was well enough known and that it was not getting had in the commission’s work? Have any direct enough worldwide publicity. I agree. However, the UK representations been made to the commission? Has the has been and will continue to be one of the most active, Foreign Office been involved in assessing the commission’s vocal members of the international community in raising progress to date? concerns about the plight of the Rohingya community. Several hon. Members mentioned Bangladesh, which We have, for many years, continually sought to raise the is important, because Burma cannot resolve the situation profile of this issue with the international community alone and it is not Burma’s sole responsibility to resolve and to raise our concerns directly with the Governments it. The Rohingya’s treatment by Bangladeshi authorities of Burma and Bangladesh. is also a serious cause for concern. It is difficult to verify Both the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary numbers, but we have seen videos of packed boats being met a range of ethnic groups, including Rohingya turned away by Bangladesh. It is estimated that more representatives, during their respective visits to Burma than 300,000 Rohingya refugees have managed to cross in April and January this year. Their visits, in the wake the border into Bangladesh, but the Government there of the visit by the then Secretary of State for International officially recognise only 29,000 of those as refugees. Development, my right hon. Friend the Member for 21WH Rohingya Communities11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Rohingya Communities 22WH

Sutton Coldfield (Mr Mitchell)in November 2011, were Burma at the UN Security Council. At our request, we the first by a western Head of State for many decades have had three separate briefings in the past eight and the first by a British Foreign Secretary since 1955, months from Mr Vijay Nambiar, the UN Secretary- and show the importance that this Government attach General’s special adviser on Burma. We also strongly to that part of the world. Their meetings with Rohingya supported a UN Human Rights Council resolution representatives demonstrate how seriously the concerns on Burma this year, which included an extension to of the Rohingya, particularly, are viewed by this the mandate of the UN’s special rapporteur for Burma, Government. Mr Tomas Quintana, who visited Rakhine state During his visit, the Foreign Secretary also raised recently. with the Burmese Government the specific issues facing A number of Members asked what we would do if the Rohingya. More recently, the troubling inter-communal there were no improvement in the present situation. We violence in Rakhine state has once again brought these are absolutely clear that we will support further easing issues to the attention of the world. We have seen of EU sanctions only once there has been further violence perpetrated by both Rohingya and Rakhine progress against the benchmarks for political progress ethnic groups. Our assessment is that this is less about that we want to see met, including the release of all religious differences and more the latest manifestation political prisoners, an end to ethnic conflict and further of decades-long inter-communal tensions between the credible steps towards reconciliation with Burma’s ethnic communities, which highlights once again the need to groupings. find a long-term solution to the issues facing the Rohingya, We will encourage the Association of South East as the UK has been urging for many years. Asian Nations and its member states to play an active We reacted quickly to the recent outbreak of violence—as role in supporting Burma’s Government to resolve the hon. Members have acknowledged—issuing a statement situation, in particular those countries that have experience on 10 June that called for all parties to act with restraint of resolving ethnic tensions. I was asked about the and urged the authorities and community leaders to involvement of or discussions with Thailand, Indonesia open discussions to end the violence and protect all and Malaysia, and we are in regular contact with those members of the local population. We called on President ASEAN states about the issue, and in particular with Thein Sein and Daw Aung San Suu Kyi to work with those with Rohingya populations, such as Malaysia. We the communities affected to resolve the situation rapidly are calling on such ASEAN states to play a helpful and in a peaceful and constructive manner. Following this moderating role in their neighbour’s finding a lasting statement and subsequent ministerial statements, we solution, drawing on their own experiences of democratic welcomed the Burmese Government’s decision to establish transition and of resolving conflict between ethnic groups. an independent investigative commission to probe the Interestingly, various Burmese representatives have had violence. For the commission to be credible, it needs to discussions, I believe, with some in Northern Ireland—the be as inclusive as possible, as hon. Members have said, hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) is here to involving those from all the affected communities, including talk about the lessons that can be learned from conflict the Rohingya. Our embassy is in close contact with resolution there. members of that commission and continues to make We are also providing substantial development assistance that point. to all communities throughout Rakhine state in respect Since the violence in Rakhine state, this Government of livelihoods, health and educational programmes. have been active in renewing our calls for a lasting Additionally, the UN has launched an appeal for solution to address the plight of the Rohingya. We have $32.5 million to address urgent needs over the next six repeatedly called for the Burmese Government to ensure months. As well as the development assistance that we unrestricted humanitarian access across Rahkine, including are already providing, any further future contribution areas that were receiving aid before the recent outbreak that we make to that appeal will focus on ensuring that of violence. It is also crucial to address reports of such programmes do not entrench segregation, but arbitrary detentions and mistreatment of detainees and instead focus on restoring services in villages, rather to find a long-term solution that resolves the issue of than in camps, so that communities can return to their the citizenship of the Rohingya. We continue to raise homes. these issues with senior members of the Burmese I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Government, including with the President and the Burmese Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy) for his comments and for his ambassador. tribute to the work of the Department for International The Foreign Secretary raised the issues concerning Development. We are already the largest bilateral aid those fleeing the violence to Bangladesh—another point donor to Burma: we have been giving £187 million over made by the hon. Member for Leicester South in his four years, with programmes focused on health care, opening remarks—in a recent meeting with Prime Minister governance, public finance management, livelihoods, Hasina of Bangladesh. The then Secretary of State for strengthening the work of Parliament and civil society International Development, my right hon. Friend the and helping the process of ethnic reconciliation. Member for Sutton Coldfield, also raised the matter in We welcome the Government’s efforts to reach out to a meeting with Prime Minister Hasina in August. We ethnic groups and their success in signing ceasefires and our European Union partners have lobbied the with 10 of the 11 main groups. We have certainly not Government of Bangladesh to allow humanitarian forgotten the plight of such groups, who continue to assistance in Cox’s Bazar, which is home to many thousands suffer as a result of the 60-year conflict with the of displaced Rohingya in Bangladesh, to continue. Government. We also recognise, however, that the ceasefires We also highlighted our concerns with international are fragile and simply a first step, albeit an important partners and urged greater EU collective action. The one. The UK is devoting considerable resource and United Kingdom continues to raise the situation in expertise to supporting that process and to ensuring 23WH Rohingya Communities11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Rohingya Communities 24WH

[Mr Hugo Swire] in that group, which is a good demonstration of how parties can work together and an extremely good example that those ceasefires are now followed by genuine political to the Burmese of how differences can be buried for the dialogue and national reconciliation, which is what we sake of national interest and democratic progress. I all hope to see. In that context, we welcome Daw Aung welcome that move very much, and it was a good first San Suu Kyi’s appointment as chair of the parliamentary step in a wider programme of UK support to the committee on the rule of law, peace and stability, which Burmese Government. we hope will allow her to play an active role in helping I also welcome the setting up of the all-party to address the issue. parliamentary group again—I think it was in abeyance In answer to the shadow Minister’s question about for some time. My hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, the citizenship law, which was also mentioned by other Southgate (Mr Burrowes), who is no longer in his place, hon. Members, we have specifically raised the 1982 is chairing a meeting this afternoon, I think he said. The citizenship law with the Government of Burma. As we more people who are engaged, in both Houses of have done for many years, we will continue to make it Parliament and all the political parties, in supporting clear to the Burmese Government that the citizenship what we are trying to achieve in Burma is manifestly a of the Rohingya people must be dealt with. We are good thing. working to ensure that the issues facing the Rohingya are reflected in the resolution on Burma at the UN I pay tribute to the work of my predecessor, my hon. General Assembly due in November—as we have done, Friend the Member for Taunton Deane (Mr Browne)—who in all fairness, previously. has just appeared mysteriously, no doubt to claim all the credit for British action in Burma and for this We remain deeply concerned by the ongoing conflict excellent speech. I am glad, however, of the issue’s now in Kachin state. We urge all sides involved to renew their falling firmly within my bailiwick. efforts to reach a lasting solution and we call on all parties to cease hostilities. We have provided more than Much remains to be done and progress is not guaranteed. £2 million of humanitarian assistance to alleviate the We will not let up in our calls for all remaining political suffering of more than 28,000 people affected by the prisoners to be released, for an end to ethnic conflict conflict in Kachin. and for the human rights of all Burma’s people to be The United Kingdom welcomes the significant progress respected. The best way to achieve our vision of a in Burma in the past 18 months. We pay tribute to the democratic Burma that enshrines freedom and human bold steps taken by the President and by Daw Aung San rights for all is to engage with the parties in Burma to Suu Kyi. We are committed to supporting them both as help embed reform and to encourage further meaningful they continue together on the path to genuine reform progress towards the peaceful democratic governance and transformative change in Burma. that we all hope for and aspire to. In that context, I welcome the Westminster Foundation I appreciate the spirit in which this morning’s debate for Democracy visit to Burma, which the shadow Minister, has been conducted. I am sure that what we have said in the hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy), the Chamber will be read by those who follow such went on—she is ahead of me in that respect. Other matters closely, not least I hope by the Government of Members also went, not least my hon. Friends the Burma, who will see that this country is absolutely Members for The Cotswolds (Geoffrey Clifton-Brown) united on achieving reconciliation between the Government and for St Ives (Andrew George), and the hon. Member and the ethnic groups of that country, in particular with for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart). That is respect to the Rohingya people who need to be treated interesting because four political parties were represented in a fairer manner quickly. 25WH 11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Domestic Violence 26WH

Domestic Violence one of the barriers, thankfully now removed, that existed for victims of domestic violence when they tried to 10.58 am protect themselves. I hope that this debate will shine a light on other barriers faced by victims and how the Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): Thank you for Government and we in Parliament can help them to allowing me to open the debate, Mr Williams, and it is a overcome them. pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. I am grateful for the opportunity to debate an important topic that, Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): I am sadly, I have become all too familiar with since entering pleased that the hon. Gentleman is opening such an Parliament. I, and all MPs no doubt, often meet the important debate this morning, and I echo his recognition victims of domestic abuse, in constituency surgeries or and acknowledgement of Jane Clough’s family’s fight other settings, and also regularly meet those who work to improve the law. Does he agree that it is shocking that with the victims. The topic is one of immense sensitivity, as many as 20-plus incidents of domestic violence may which throws up a range of different and difficult issues occur before a victim has the courage and confidence to that make tackling domestic abuse extremely challenging, report it? Does he also agree that there is real urgency in specific cases and overall. for action to address that? I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Claire Perry) and especially my hon. Friend the Member Andrew Stephenson: I agree totally with the hon. for Erewash (Jessica Lee), who had hoped to lead this Lady. Lancashire probation service told me only yesterday debate and must take credit for securing it. Both of that it estimates that an average of 35 incidents of them will be following it with interest, and I pay tribute domestic violence occur before a victim contacts anyone— to their work on this important issue. I also pay tribute the police or another agency—for help. to the huge number of people, especially volunteers, East Lancashire has considerable support for victims from around the country who devote time and much of domestic violence, and I have had the benefit of more to be there for the victims of domestic violence. visiting some of the centres that offer advice and support Their work is commendable beyond words, and I want to victims. Pendle women’s refuge has been open for to put on the record how highly we appreciate their 25 years. It is run by Pendle borough council, and work and that we recognise it in Parliament. extended its facilities six years ago. Sixty families have I hope that the debate will provide an opportunity for been accommodated at the refuge in the past year, but hon. Members to express their concerns about areas there were 178 applications in the same period, with where not all is being done to protect the victims of many cases involving problems such as substance misuse domestic abuse. The Government are concerned about and severe mental health issues. Despite the problem of such violence and are already offering a huge amount of resources, refuge staff try to accommodate as many support. I look forward to the Minister’s response to families as possible. the debate. Domestic violence is close to my heart, because I Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): I have seen at first hand how it tears families, communities congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. and people apart. Those who have followed my short Does he agree that we need more centres such as the career in Parliament will know about the Justice for Family Justice Centre in Croydon, which was the first of Jane campaign, which has been successful in changing its kind in Europe? It provides housing, benefit, doctor the law better to protect women and men who may be and welfare services, and everything that a victim needs the victims of domestic abuse. to ensure that they can carry on their lives, as well as On 28 June 2011, I introduced a Bill to change bail enabling them to obtain justice. Does he agree that we laws, following the murder of Jane Clough, a nurse who need more such centres, where victims can access all the lived in Barrowford in my constituency. She was murdered services from one point instead of from multiple agencies? by her abusive partner, Jonathan Vass, for having the courage to speak to the police about the repeated rape Andrew Stephenson: That is a fantastic example of and other abuse to which he subjected her. He had been provision in my hon. Friend’s constituency, and I thank released on bail by a judge, against the advice of the him for making that point. I hope that hon. Members Crown Prosecution Service and the police, when he on both sides of the Chamber will raise good examples tracked Jane down and killed her, stabbing her 71 times from their constituencies that can be replicated throughout and then slitting her throat as she lay bleeding on the the country to help victims, wherever they live. ground. The Pendle domestic violence initiative is a community My Bail (Amendment) Bill would have conferred on project that offers a service to people who have experienced the prosecution a right of appeal against controversial domestic violence, as well as to front-line workers and judicial decisions to grant bail—a right that did not others who may need help. Bilingual support, free exist at the time. In October 2011, almost a year ago counselling and work in schools are particularly valuable. and following a hard-fought campaign, the Government Sadly, the initiative experienced a 45% increase in referrals agreed to support the Bill, and this year they introduced for support services compared with the previous year, amendments to achieve its aim to protect the victims of again underlining the scale of the problem. domestic violence in future. Included in that initiative is the Lookout programme, The provisions of my private Member’s Bill are, a service aimed at young people affected by domestic thankfully, now law. That was a huge achievement for abuse and run through local schools. Tragically, the Jane’s parents, John and Penny Clough, and all those programme is aware of more than 70 cases of children involved in the Justice for Jane campaign. The courage under 11 whom it cannot help. However, it has been shown by John and Penny in the face of such a terrible able to help around 100 young people affected by a loss has been incredible. I raise the case to demonstrate range of complex issues every year. 27WH Domestic Violence11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Domestic Violence 28WH

[Andrew Stephenson] Andrew Stephenson: My hon. Friend makes a vital point. The key issue with domestic violence is under- In addition, Pendle women’s centre opened in February. reporting. As was mentioned before, many women are It serves as an information centre, with high expectations subjected to repeated abuse—time and again—before that it will soon deliver education and health programmes. they finally speak to the police or any other agency to Its services are directed at all women aged 18 and over, seek help. We therefore need to ensure that we deal with and it has been set up with the involvement of the under-reporting. Pendle domestic violence initiative, Pendle housing needs team, Housing Pendle, Help Direct and the NHS. Rehman Chishti: Having previously, before coming to Pendle women’s centre has links to Styal prison. I Parliament, been a barrister, for both the prosecution understand that that relationship is unique, despite the and defence, I know that under-reporting is an issue. It proven link between women in prison and the victims of was often the case in court that, on the day of the trial, domestic violence. According to figures from the Howard the victim would say that they did not want to go ahead, League for Penal Reform, about half the women in but under the good provisions in the legislation that we prison report having experienced violence at home and have now, even if a victim does not want to go ahead, one third of them report sexual abuse. Equally worrying the trial can still go ahead, with their witness statements is the fact that, according to the Youth Justice Board, being read. Does my hon. Friend agree that those are 40% of girls in custody report suffering violence at excellent provisions? home and one in three of them report having been sexually abused. With that in mind, I welcome Pendle women’s centre’s link with the prison service and wonder Andrew Stephenson: I agree again with my hon. Friend whether that can be encouraged elsewhere to promote that that is a very welcome step forward and undoubtedly links between prisons, the probation service and support one reason why conviction rates are improving. I have centres in our communities. heard something similar from a friend of mine who is a I also pay tribute to the Big Lottery Fund, which has barrister and has talked to me about how we can put more than £3.7 million into projects that support improve the legal system to help the victims of domestic the victims of domestic violence in the north-west in the violence further. past three years. More than £1 million of that has gone directly to Lancashire, so local support in my area has Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): Does the hon. been fantastic. Gentleman agree that it is no wonder that there is On national issues, the Government are looking at a under-reporting, because with any other crime, we do range of innovative ideas to improve the situation, and I not see the victim having to continue to live with the welcome that. Hon. Members will be aware that in perpetrator and to let them have contact with their March 2011 the Government published a policy paper, children and all the other things in which people are “Call to end violence against women and girls: action involved together? Does he agree that one of the most plan”. An update on progress towards the recommendations important things is that the perpetrator is removed in that action plan would be helpful, especially on from the home without the victim being expected to attempts at early intervention. move and that there is enforcement to keep the perpetrator I should be grateful to the Minister if he provided an away? update on two recent consultations: on the proposals to change the definition of domestic abuse so that it Andrew Stephenson: I thank the hon. Lady for that includes coercive control and incorporates victims under incredibly important point. The Government are doing the age of 18, as well as the on-going consultation on an awful lot of work to ensure that the abuser is now Clare’s law. Alongside those consultations, there have made homeless, rather than the victim, because for so been trials of both the domestic violence disclosure many years in domestic violence cases, reporting the scheme and domestic violence protection orders. My abuse led directly to homelessness for the victim. That hon. Friend the Member for Devizes was especially was the immediate consequence, and it was a huge issue keen to raise DVPOs today. associated with domestic violence that needed to be Another important move will be the criminalisation addressed. of forced marriage—something I have raised several times on the Floor of the House and very much welcome. Another concern is the uneven service around the I also welcome reports in July that domestic violence country. As I have explained, in my area, voluntary conviction rates are at their highest ever, with the overall agencies and Government agencies are working together number of prosecutions for violence against women up to provide a very good service. In the north-west as a to 91,000. whole, we are very well supported. As a parliamentary answer in July informed the House, the north-west will have 12 Government-funded independent sexual violence Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con): Does my advisers—ISVAs—from next year. However, London hon. Friend agree that the police need to be more will have only eight and the north-east only six. That proactive when they are called to a scene where neighbours seems like an imbalance. say that domestic violence is taking place? When the police ask women whether they want them to do something, Back in January 2009, a report from the campaign they may say no. I know about that personally, because group End Violence Against Women found that one in it happened to a family member who kept saying that four local authorities in Britain had no specialised she was fine, but she clearly was not fine because support services for women who had suffered violence. I neighbours were regularly calling the police and they hope that the Minister can provide us with an update on did not insist on helping her. improved access throughout the country. Perhaps the 29WH Domestic Violence11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Domestic Violence 30WH new police and crime commissioners will want to deal severe physical violence and 72% of girls and 51% of with those regional imbalances when they get into boys report some form of emotional violence from their office. partner. There is also a concern that the services available can focus solely on the woman as the direct victim of Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab): Does domestic abuse and often fail to take into consideration the hon. Gentleman agree that the increase in domestic the impact on other members of the family, especially violence among teenagers is of great concern and that children. Research by the National Society for the the Government need to take that issue much more Prevention of Cruelty to Children estimates that 14% of seriously? Given the cuts in local authority funding, children under the age of 18 will have been exposed to which are having an impact on voluntary organisations domestic violence in the UK and cites research studies and local services, I ask the Minister, whom I welcome that estimate that, in 30% to 60% of domestic violence to his new role, to look into the issue. It is vital that we cases, the abusive partner also abuses children in the provide sensitive and appropriate support to the very family. Where domestic violence is present, rates of young who are facing domestic violence. They are often child abuse and neglect are up to 15 times higher than not noticed, and the agencies are not sensitised in the national average. dealing with those issues.

Kate Green: The hon. Gentleman is right to highlight Andrew Stephenson: I agree with the hon. Lady on the fact that members of the wider family are affected. that point. The key, though, rather than the funding of Does he share my concern that one consequence of services, is looking at the definition of domestic abuse local authority funding cuts is that work with the and redefining it to include younger people, because perpetrators of domestic violence is increasingly coming quite often they are completely missing from the under pressure and programmes are being closed? Does Government strategies designed to deal with this problem. he agree that, as much as we work with the victim and With regard to adult women who are subjected to the victim’s immediate family, we need to focus attention domestic abuse, Jo Wood, MBE, who runs the rape and on preventing such violence from happening in the first sexual abuse centre for women in Merseyside and has place? worked closely with Jane Clough’s parents since Jane’s tragic murder, makes the point that domestic abuse and Andrew Stephenson: We definitely do. That is a valid violence come in many forms and do not affect a certain point. One reason why I am talking in particular about type of person. As Jo puts it, the effect on children is that many of the children who “So much of domestic violence is hidden. There is still a perception see domestic violence at home and for whom that that it only happens to certain types of women—but domestic becomes almost a normal daily routine will go on to violence is no respecter of class and some of the hardest to reach groups of women are those not naturally engaged with other abuse their children or become violent themselves. We services—they are more often victims of the type of domestic therefore need to consider the wider societal impacts of violence that does not leave bruises but can kill just as effectively domestic violence in the home. in other ways.” A report published in July by the Centre for Social One of the main challenges thrown up by all this is to Justice if anything paints an even worse picture than engage all the services that may be the first to come the NSPCC. The CSJ claims that 25% of children in across domestic violence in looking out for and knowing the UK witness domestic violence. It emphasises the how to deal with the problem when they see it. There is psychological damage caused to children and the cycle no guarantee that the first number that a victim calls of abuse, as generations repeat that parental behaviour. will be 999, so it may well not be a police officer who is It points out that almost two thirds of child witnesses of the first person to come across the abuse. As a Member domestic abuse show more emotional or behavioural of Parliament, I am sometimes the first port of call—for problems than the average child. The damage can extend example, in forced marriage cases. There are many to post-traumatic stress disorder and, less predictably, opportunities for people to break the silence around can even affect IQ levels. The CSJ claims that, on domestic abuse, but we all need to be ready and to average, children with experience of domestic abuse are understand the challenges when it is us as MPs, or 7.25 points lower than others. One of the report’s doctors or teachers, who are the first port of call. authors, Dr Samantha Callan, summed it up by saying: I do not want to take up much more time, but I think “The impact on children of being a witness of domestic abuse that it is important to bear in mind the impact of is underplayed even though they are more likely to fail at school, domestic violence on homelessness, as the current campaign develop anti-social behaviour and go on to harm their own by St Mungo’s, “Rebuilding Shattered Lives”, reminds children.” us. For very many victims of abuse, including children The report made several recommendations to improve experiencing sexual abuse at home, homelessness is children’s outcomes in domestic abuse cases, including their immediate solution. In Pendle, we have the Calico therapeutic provision for children in schools, proactive Partnership, run by Calico Housing—a so-called floating help for children who have witnessed abuse—instead of support service that provides support to vulnerable the reactive approach of waiting for signs of mental people, including the victims of domestic violence, who health problems—and better training for social workers. are not at a particular address. We have not mentioned the violence that happens On a final note of concern, although any debate within teenage relationships. Again, according to a about domestic violence will inevitably focus on women, recent NSPCC report, 25% of girls and 18% of boys who make up the majority of victims of domestic abuse, report experiencing some form of physical violence it is essential to note that men are often victims, too. from a partner, 11% of girls and 4% of boys report They are victims of 10% of forced marriages in the UK 31WH Domestic Violence11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Domestic Violence 32WH

[Andrew Stephenson] pets, and will also have been witnesses to domestic violence. Whether or not they have actually seen the and make up a quarter of the victims of domestic mum or dad being hit, if they are in the house, they will abuse. I therefore welcome the Home Office fund, launched know very well that something is going on—they hear late last year, to support male victims of domestic and the screams and see the bruises the next morning. Such sexual violence. I hope that we hear more about supporting children need support. Fortalice can provide play and men. youth workers who support the children and do therapeutic To sum up, it might be helpful to remember and spell work to help them through their trauma. out the scale of the problem that we are talking about The completeness of the project, with counselling, today. The latest statistics from the British crime survey education and support for children, is at risk from show that, every year in the UK, more than 1 million funding cuts. It is also at risk due to the possibility of women suffer domestic abuse, more than 300,000 are the services being retendered, with cheaper providers sexually assaulted and 60,000 are raped. According to having to be used, and due to the universal credit and the survey, through the course of their lives, 27% of housing benefit changes, which will mean that the refuges women and 17% of men had experienced domestic are less viable. abuse from a current or former partner after the age of 16. That is equivalent to 4.3 million women and 2.7 million Kate Green: My hon. Friend mentioned retendering men—a total of 7 million direct victims of domestic services. Does she agree that a concern of the specialist violence in the UK today. providers is that generic providers, which can perhaps As is widely quoted, two people are killed by their provide the services more cheaply, are increasingly coming current or former partner each week in England and into the market, but they do not have the same experience Wales. One of those was my constituent, Jane Clough, and sensitivity that is so important for protecting victims who paid the ultimate price for speaking out against her of domestic abuse? abuser. Clearly, domestic abuse and violence is a huge problem in Britain today. The voluntary sector is doing Julie Hilling: I absolutely agree. It is important that all that it can in places like Pendle and elsewhere. The experts work with people who are experiencing domestic Government are clearly also willing to do as much as violence, whether they be men or women. I agree with they can to help to bring extra support to the victims of the hon. Member for Pendle (Andrew Stephenson) that domestic violence. I welcome the opportunity to open there is not enough support or refuges for male victims the debate and thank the Minister in advance for his of domestic violence. We need experts who are extremely contribution on how the Government plan to support aware of what happens to victims of domestic violence the victims of domestic violence in the UK. and who have the skills to work with such people to build their confidence and help them through the traumas they have experienced. Just another housing provider 11.21 am coming in will mean that such holistic services will not Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): I am pleased to be the same, and we risk that happening. speak in the debate. As we have already heard, domestic Bolton does not have any spaces for male victims of violence is unlike any other crime. Home is where we domestic violence. We have only hostels for them to go are supposed to be safe. If we are mugged in the street, to, where they will often be with people who are drug or are in a car crash or are robbed at work, we go home, alcohol users. It is not an environment where they can but for victims of domestic violence, home is where they feel safe, build confidence and access support. We clearly are most unsafe. A common theme for perpetrators of need to do more work that area. violence is that it is the victim’s fault—“If only you were Another project in Bolton is Paws for Kids—a misnomer a better wife, mother, lover, cook, cleaner, this would in many ways, because everybody thinks that it is an not happen to you.” Women end up harmed not only animal charity, and part of it is. It started as a rescue physically, but psychologically, with their confidence at service for the pets of women experiencing domestic rock bottom and trust gone. violence. Many women will not leave their homes because As has been said, it often takes many attempts for a they are frightened for the animals that they would woman finally to leave her partner. They may leave and leave behind. Pets cannot be taken into refuges. Paws go back, and leave and go back, which can be extremely for Kids started by providing a pet fostering service, frustrating for those trying to support people going and it has developed. It now has independent domestic through that process. We must recognise the difficulty; violence advisers and a safe haven project. A woman they are leaving someone who has been a fundamental goes into a refuge, gets support and is then re-housed, part of their life, whom they loved—or still love—and but, as I said earlier, she will often be re-housed in an who may be the father or mother of their children. area where she has no contacts whatsoever—no friends When they finally take that step, the most important and no family. It is one of the riskiest times for a woman aspect is to ensure that they stay safe and build a new to return to a violent partner, and the Paws for Kids life. Many women have to move many miles away from safe haven project provides support, friendship and their home and from all their networks of friends and activities for women to settle back into the community. family. Paws for Kids is at risk. It gets funding from various Bolton is lucky to have two fantastic domestic violence streams, but its main funding is disappearing. In the projects. One is the Fortalice refuge, which not only past it had money from the Department of Health, the provides a roof, but counselling, support, education Home Office and the local authority, but it is at risk of projects and play and youth work for the children. losing its IDVAs next April. One of its IDVAs works Children are of course themselves traumatised. They particularly with ethnic minority women in Bolton. have had to leave their home, friends, family and possibly That post currently has no funding whatsoever. We 33WH Domestic Violence11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Domestic Violence 34WH know that women have been hard hit by the Government’s There is always a danger that Westminster Hall debates actions, and no more so than in the field of domestic become a recycling of statistics, and I try to avoid that; violence. We need to ensure that funding is coming but a report that came out in March from the charity through to support such projects. 4Children caught my eye. It cited the figure of 1 million I spoke to representatives from Paws for Kids this children affected by domestic violence. That eye-catching morning. They said. “If you’re going to say anything, figure got 4Children the front page of The Independent, please talk to MPs about the need for a joined-up but the charity drilled down slightly deeper into what approach and support across the piece.” Paws for Kids needed to be done. I listened carefully to the points is working with vets to get them to pass on information made by the hon. Members for Stretford and Urmston to women or report problems. Often, a dog that is a (Kate Green) and for Bolton West (Julie Hilling) about repeat returner to the vet is being abused. Perpetrators local authority cuts and their impact. What 4Children of domestic violence use pets as weapons—in fact, they had to say, and what the Government are doing, provide use all sorts of things as weapons. We need the joined-up a useful insight into that. I strongly welcome the fact approach. It is not enough to have just a refuge, a safe that the Prime Minister himself has made a commitment haven or a pet fostering service; it is about how we join to greater intervention in the 120,000 so-called troubled up services to ensure that women and men are supported families, not least because 80% of them have at some through their whole journey. point contacted the police or the NHS about domestic violence. In relation to my earlier comments about I will be interested to hear what the Minister says problems of definition, it is interesting to note that, in a about how he will ensure that there is funding going quarter of those 80% of families, the domestic violence forward for all such services, so that victims of domestic was not between two adults in an intimate relationship. violence are not doubly disadvantaged, not only by I think that that is proof that when we discuss domestic being victims, but by being unable to get the support violence we are really discussing family violence—violence they badly need. within the home.

Julie Hilling: One of the things that the hon. Gentleman’s 11.29 am argument misses is the fact that domestic violence is not Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con): class-based at all. It happens in all classes. It does not It is a pleasure to participate in this debate on an matter whether someone is rich or poor. A perpetrator important issue. I am pleased that the Conservative can be a millionaire or a pauper. Just focusing on Members in the Chamber are all male, which shows that troubled families means missing all the other people, of domestic violence is no longer seen as just a women’s whatever class, gender or ethnicity, who do not feature issue. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for in that group. Not long ago there was a murder in my Pendle (Andrew Stephenson) on his speech. He talked a area where the victim was from an affluent background, lot about the case of Jane Clough, who met her death in and had not come to anyone’s attention, because what a hospital car park in my constituency. I watched my was happening was hidden within four walls. hon. Friend’s campaign, and saw what he achieved for Jane’s parents, with admiration. Paul Maynard: I might just about accept what the I want to try to keep my remarks brief. I have been hon. Lady says, but I regret the overtone of class heartened, in a way, by much of what has been said in rhetoric that she allowed to creep into her comment. the debate, because I want to focus on children, and Blackpool North and Cleveleys is an area with a high perhaps to question the terminology of domestic violence. degree of social deprivation, and the vast bulk of the I think it is true to say that the law, the statutory issues that I encounter on the doorstep are a function of authorities, the third sector and charities, the media and poverty. I accept that domestic violence happens across even many politicians are still liable to fall into the trap the classes, and across all divides; but where, in my of seeing domestic violence as violence between two constituency, it is really a problem that holds back adults who are intimate, and nothing else. That does a children’s achievement in school, it is a function of grave disservice to the problem. That said, there is a poverty. That is why the Prime Minister’s attempts to policy dilemma: whatever issue we want to deal with, deal with the troubled families issue should be welcomed the moment we try to broaden the scope we reduce the and not dismissed as an exercise in class politics. impact of what we are doing. I do not feel that domestic Perhaps I may explain a little more clearly why the violence in which husbands attack wives, or partners issue is of interest. The hon. Member for Stretford and attack partners, has been adequately tackled yet. So it is Urmston made the point about refuges having to retender; with a degree of trepidation that I suggest that we need however, I suggest that local authorities should take a to expand our remit to the wider issue of family violence. broader view and consider the outputs of refuge centres Why do I say that? I was struck by a phrase in the and, as 4Children suggest, adopt a payment-by-results NSPCC report that was mentioned earlier: the impact approach to reducing family violence. That is in its of domestic violence on children had been looked at, policy document. but solely in terms of the impact on the non-aggressor parent, and not in terms of the child as a victim. I Kate Green: One of the problems for refuges, in thought that omission was curious. It might not have achieving that, is that often they work with women for been intentional. I am sure that elsewhere in NSPCC very short periods. Women may spend only days in the documentation there is a ream of information about refuge. It is important that we should not rush down the children as victims of domestic violence, but I thought route of a payment-by-results model, which might put that, in that one instance, there was a lack of insight the emergence of provision under even further financial into the nature of domestic violence for children. pressure. 35WH Domestic Violence11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Domestic Violence 36WH

Paul Maynard: I hope that the hon. Lady will forgive throwing yet more money at a problem they can identify, me for not making myself clear. I suggest that the but about ensuring that the money we throw has an payment-by-results model is perhaps more appropriate impact. It is not about sustaining services that are not for reducing violence in troubled families. As to refuges achieving their goals, but about achieving change for in general, she made the point about the high quality of the people whom we represent and the people who are certain independent refuges, and the experience they suffering from these problems. Measures can be taken. bring. I have seen that myself at the refuge in Blackpool. I listened carefully to the hon. Member for Bolton That can be demonstrated through outcomes and outputs, West. I am quite ashamed to live in a country where we rather than just inputs. have more refuges for pets than for victims of domestic violence. Until that is changed, I want our focus to be Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op): I do not on expanding provision for adults first. want to misrepresent the hon. Gentleman; will he say more about the metrics he would use to judge a payment- 11.40 am by-results culture for reducing family violence? Would it be fewer punches or black eyes? Will he be clearer about Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab): I congratulate what he means? It is worrying to some of us, who might the hon. Member for Pendle (Andrew Stephenson) on misinterpret him. What does he suggest would be an securing this timely and intensely important debate. It is acceptable way of dealing with domestic violence? very much to his credit that he has brought the attention of the House to the matter. I also congratulate the right Paul Maynard: I thank the hon. Lady for giving me hon. Gentleman the Minister— an opportunity to make my thinking clear. Going by what I see of troubled families, including in constituency The Minister of State, Home Department (Mr Jeremy surgeries, and what I learn from talking to police, what I Browne): Just “hon.” am thinking about relates to a reduction in—or the Stephen Pound: Forgive me. Many of us consider that absence of—reports of family violence passed up through the hon. Gentleman is always right and never less than the network of social workers, police and schools, or honourable. I congratulate him on his translation into whatever, about the families they work with. I think that his present position. that is a perfectly valid metric to apply in that situation. It can be measured, and I see no reason why one would To be completely up front, I come from a generation not want to do it. It does not necessarily guarantee that that had the worst possible attitude towards domestic everything will be rosy for ever and a day, but it is violence. My generation condoned domestic violence. I intended to show whether interventions are successful. remember as a boy the number of women who walked We must take a broader view. into doors every Saturday night, the number of women who appeared in church on Sunday with a chiffon scarf Julie Hilling rose— around their neck, hiding finger marks, and the number of children who blanched every time someone lifted a Paul Maynard: If the hon. Lady does not mind, I hand. Very little was done about it. have given way a few times now, and want to conclude. Fortunately, we have moved on from that. It is no I am sure she will be able to make her points at another longer acceptable to pretend that domestic violence is time. not a problem. I would like to give particular credit, A report has been published today, for example, from from my part of the world—west London—to Southall the Children’s Commissioner for England, about the Black Sisters, which has been in existence now for more impact that exposure to problem drinking has on younger than 30 years. Many people will have known Hannana children. I have seen in my constituency that the educational Siddiqui for her work on the Kiranjit Ahluwalia case. In achievement of young carers is held back, because they that case, not only was the issue of ultimate violence— must deal with parents with addiction problems that murder in the family—addressed, but the whole problem may lead to some form of family violence. The problems within particular communities. It became intensely difficult, are broad, widespread, and complex in the way they and a number of well-meaning liberals such as myself interconnect. I accept the point that it is not easy to stood back, thinking that we had no right to intrude come up with a metric that will reflect the reality, but, into such matters. Those days have gone. equally, it is possible to measure what interventions achieve. It is possible to assess, on some level, what is Rehman Chishti: On the hon. Gentleman’s point that being achieved. certain domestic violence offences take place in certain communities, does he agree that one particular aspect is I urge the Government to look again at the 2005 honour-based violence? There are more than 2,800 incidents Home Office definition of domestic violence, which a year. We now need a multi-agency approach to ensure excludes so much of what happens in the family. In that we get rid of that horrific practice. April, a case in my constituency received some media coverage. A mother and her partner were locking a Stephen Pound: There are few expressions I loathe 10-year-old boy in a coal bunker, for no reason than and despise more than the use of the word “honour” in their own lust for cruelty. When he was finally released that context. There is nothing honourable about and they were charged, he said he was happy, if only slaughtering, attacking, murdering, torturing, brutalising because he was now able to own a toothbrush for the and beating women. To somehow imply that there is a first time—at the age of 10. shroud of ethnicity that can be spread across the issue There is a reality to what is occurring that means that and it then becomes acceptable—I know that that is not we must take a more intelligent approach, which seeks the hon. Gentleman’s view, and I know that he is far, far to measure the impact of what we are doing to rectify better than that—and to use the word that he used in the situation. The issue is not about the Government that context frankly sticks in my throat. 37WH Domestic Violence11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Domestic Violence 38WH

I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman that there is For me, someone who has represented my area for a huge problem in certain societies, and they are not all 30 years, the biggest issue that we need to address today of one faith, colour, race or nationality. In my own is not the existence of the problem, which is undeniable, ethnicity, believe you me, we would want to talk to some or the need for early, positive and preventive intervention—I west London Irish families about their attitudes towards hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton West women. We do not have a great deal to be massively (Julie Hilling) and the Minister will accept that, and we proud of. That issue has to be confronted, and it is will return to that issue in a minute—but one particular being confronted. We need the resources to confront aspect of the horrific nightmare of domestic violence: and intervene. housing. At the moment, I posit that every one of us is Rehman Chishti: Let me clarify for the hon. Gentleman. regularly confronted in our surgeries by victims of the I agree that there is nothing honourable about the vile foulest domestic violence who look to be re-housed as a act. One uses the term “honour” because that is how it solution to their problem. It is somehow felt that if they is used and labelled at the moment. If he wants to could move to another place or property, the problem change the terminology and ask the Minister to ensure would be solved. In London, that simply is not possible that we do so, I will push for that with him. I agree for two reasons. First, in my borough, there are 23,000 completely that there is no honour in that disgraceful people on the waiting list. Secondly, my constituency is act. It was used only because it is the term that is minute geographically. Someone could move from one applied throughout the country. side to the other and still be within a half-hour walk. If someone moves to other accommodation, do the children Stephen Pound: May I say categorically, on the record, get uprooted and sent to a new school? Do they go that I have immense respect for the hon. Gentleman? I anonymously to that school? Do people change their have enjoyed many conversations with him, and I am general practitioner, their sons’ football classes and grateful that he has joined us in the House. I certainly their daughters’ dance classes? Do all those things have did not, at any stage, mean to imply any criticism; we to change overnight? It simply is not possible. are as one here. We look to the Minister’s febrile mind That is why when people say—I have heard some say to come up with an alternative wording, in the sure and this—that domestic violence is exaggerated as a mechanism certain knowledge that he is the person who can achieve for accelerated movement through the housing transfer that. list, I find it intensely and immensely offensive. I also find it utterly unrealistic. In all honesty, there is no Julie Hilling: My hon. Friend said that he thought surplus of housing in the urban environment waiting that we were now in more enlightened times. I do not for people to move into. I speak as someone who has know whether he has seen the statistics from a Department spent many years working for a housing association in of Health survey that say that 43% of teenage girls west London. One of my jobs was to facilitate such believe that it is acceptable for a boyfriend to be aggressive overnight—sometimes middle-of-a-Sunday-afternoon— towards his partner, and that one in two boys and one in transfers. Until the day I die, I will never forget the piles three girls believe that there are some circumstances in of school paintings, drawings and textbooks that were which it is okay to hit a woman or to force her to have left behind by children whose mother never thought sex. We have not moved greatly from those unenlightened that they would go to that school again, because they times. Perhaps the only difference is that there were few moved on to another school in another part of west resources to support women who were fleeing domestic London, thinking that that would solve the problem. violence. Sadly, we seem to be going back to the time Did it solve the problem? Sadly, it did not, because the when there were fewer resources to support women. abusive partner saw such a move as a challenge, lay in Fundamentally, attitudes such as how men view women wait outside each primary school, eventually located and how women view themselves regarding domestic the mother and the problem started all over again. violence have not changed. There is one ray of sunshine. There is an organisation called the Place to Be, which some hon. Members may Stephen Pound: Dr Pangloss has never been my role be aware of, that operates principally in primary schools. model on such occasions. I do not see that we inhabit In my part of the world—west London—it provides a the best of all possible worlds. Believe you me, I am quiet place for children to talk to a skilled, trained more than well aware of the fact that we have not mentor, who can actually talk through the problems remotely resolved the problem, but there has been an that they face. Children will put a little note in a box, attitudinal change in society to a slight degree; it is not just like the bullying boxes that many schools have sufficient, but it is there. It is simply not acceptable nowadays. More than anything else, we have found that nowadays to perpetrate the sort of behaviour that was little notes appear that say, “Please ask my Mummy’s the norm when I was in my 20s in west London. boyfriend to stop hitting her”, and those are the mild Some 30 years ago, Erin Pizzey started the Chiswick ones. We see that over and over again. women’s refuge. I remember going there on Christmas The solution is not the refuge or the move, or somehow eve year after year with toys that we had collected for to seek to resolve the issue geographically, by transferring the children. It was explained that Pizzey, who was across the city. It is not somehow to blame the victim sometimes robust in her attitudes and was impatient—for and say that the victim has to move; we have to look for sound reasons—would always insist on having no man preventive interventions for perpetrators and for early within less than 20 feet of the building. We would signposting. Unfortunately, like many in this room, I therefore leave our sacks of toys 20 feet from Kew have had to speak to abusers. We have to do so; we bridge for people to come out to collect. That was an cannot refuse to see them, although we might find that improvement. difficult and have to hold our noses. I have often been 39WH Domestic Violence11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Domestic Violence 40WH

[Stephen Pound] forward and break out of the cycle of fear in which they live. Does my hon. Friend agree that the Government struck by the frustration evidenced by them—the low should have an holistic approach to all those changes? self-value and self-worth, and the failure to achieve anything in life. Very often, such people are like the Stephen Pound: As ever, my hon. Friend makes not father in the famous story in James Joyce’s “Dubliners”, just a telling, but an extremely positive point. The draft who comes home and beats up his children because he universal credit regulations will be laid before the House has failed at work, does not have enough money and in the next few weeks—I think that they are due when has failed in everything he does, and there is the agony we return after the conference recess—so we are quickly of that boy who says: approaching a crucial debate, in which we will have to discuss such matters for precisely the reason that he “Don’t beat me, pa!... I’ll say a Hail Mary for you.” gave. It is very often like that—the frustration boils out from Many people do not seem to realise what will happen, the parent who comes home, where the nearest person say in the case of a woman who flees her violent male to hand is the child, the wife, the partner or the spouse. partner, if the male partner is named as the recipient of We have to identify such violence early on, because I the benefit. What happens if the woman has to go to the think that we can save some of those people. Yes, it is abuser, who may still have her blood staining his knuckles, paramount that we save the victims and it is crucial that and ask him to sign the benefit over to her as a favour? we save the collateral victims—the children and the Will he say that he is more than happy to co-operate people around them—but, in some cases, we also have and collaborate with her? No. One of the joys of child to consider intervening on the person causing the problem. benefit—one of the most important things about it, and That may sound heretical, and it is much easier for one of the greatest arguments for it—was that it was people to switch off their minds and read the Daily paid directly and solely to the woman, which is a Mail, or to demonise this great tattooed chav underclass principle that we seem to be losing. who come home and bat their wives around, but there is What I have seen of the draft universal credit regulations much more to the problem than that. They make up a fills me with dread, because I can see a fiscal servitude—the range of victims in their own different ways. I carry no shackles of sterling—being locked on to women so that candle for the abuser, but I recognise that intervention they cannot escape or break free, because of the complicated has to be across the piece. mechanisms that they are held in simply so that they Inevitably, everything that we do in politics in this can provide themselves with the basics, such as food place today is about resources and priorities. Nye Bevan and drink. Nowadays, we more and more see people was so right so many years ago when he said that the turning to the charitable sector for the provision of the language of socialism is a language of priorities: we are most basic of basics that, frankly, the state should in that world now. However, this priority has to be given provide. full support and strength, because if we cannot provide preventive intervention and early identification, the problems Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op): that come over the hill will frankly be so vast that they My hon. Friend is making a powerful point about will dwarf any demand or draw-down on the public where power and resources lie in households, and about purse now. I appreciate that such an argument may be how a woman may be severely disadvantaged not only made about many issues, but in the case of domestic through the impact of domestic violence, but through violence, the argument makes itself. what she then finds she has entitlements or access to. I have a case in my constituency in which the male in the Not only is there the corrosive, damaging and very household changed the tenancy agreement on the house, often lethal impact on the victims and their immediate so that the woman did not realise, until she had to flee, family, but, as has already been mentioned—I think by that she had no access to that home under the arrangements the hon. Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys he had set up. Does my hon. Friend agree that there (Paul Maynard)—such violence becomes a learned practice. must be a much more holistic approach to ensuring I have seen children in the playground of a primary equal access to resources in the household, not just school hit girls, emulating their father’s or their mother’s access to the important services that have to be available boyfriend’s behaviour, which is a learned behaviour. I in a timely fashion when somebody becomes the victim have seen young boys, at the age of six or seven, hit of domestic violence? young girls, because they have seen such behaviour and they think that it is acceptable. That is a cost on society Stephen Pound: In her short time in this House, my that we cannot afford. hon. Friend, whom I am proud to say is my respected neighbour, has earned an enviable reputation for coming Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab): I am sorry to up with exactly the right expression to illuminate a cut off my hon. Friend in mid flow. There is clearly an problem, and she has again done that extremely well. I issue of resources around local services, policing and entirely agree with her point, but I will go slightly such forms of intervention, but we should also ensure further. I do not think that we can resolve the problem that the Government have a holistic approach to the by identifying funding streams within the family; that economic impact on women of some of the changes to could stop the problem getting worse, but would not benefits, pensions and tax credits, which mean that actually stop it. women will not have as much financial freedom as they previously had; of the cuts to local councils, which have [MR EDWARD LEIGH in the Chair] pressures on their budgets but will not, I hope, inevitably The hon. Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys look at cutting services for domestic violence, although said that he did not want the debate to become a list of that is a risk; and of the legal aid changes that will statistics being trotted round the course and, as in all impact on women’s ability to have the confidence to go things, I respect him for that. When it comes to statistics, 41WH Domestic Violence11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Domestic Violence 42WH however, it is worth drawing the House’s attention to about statistics, but it is worth recognising the scale of the fact that 31% of local authority funding for the the challenge. It is about not just the numbers of people, domestic violence and sexual abuse sector was cut between predominantly women, who are killed through their 2010-11 and 2011-12, which is a reduction from £7.8 million relationship with their partners, but the impact on other to £5.4 million in—I assume—England and Wales. That services. In West Yorkshire alone, 10,000 calls to the 999 figure is massive, and I would say that that huge amount service were related to domestic violence. That is 20% of is cost-ineffective. the total number of emergency calls that were dealt We have heard the word “holistic” used two or three with over six months. times. Let us take that approach not because it is One of the first things that must concern the new somehow a fiscally mature and sensible way of operating Minister is the need to get the right data. If we are but because it could save lives. We cannot tolerate a honest, we do not yet have the consistency of data that situation in which young lives can be blighted and the is required to understand the scale of the problem and lives of adults destroyed. We cannot see the destruction the impact that it has. In particular, I am talking about of the future of our country because of a lack of the way in which police forces flag up intimate violence. funding, financial support and early intervention. They need consistency in capturing the data so that they I again congratulate the hon. Member for Pendle on can see not just repeat offenders but repeat victims. securing this debate. I look forward to the Minister’s That is a huge challenge. Some police forces are proactive response and to a slightly different way of addressing about such issues, but others are less so. this issue for the sake of present and future generations. The police force is not the only place in which the issue of data has to be addressed. It is across a whole range of public services. In that sense, the movement 12 noon towards a single definition by the Association of Chief Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op): I welcome Police Officers is welcome, but it needs to be shared you, Mr Leigh, to the Chair. I echo everyone’s words of across services, and people must be trained to understand support for the work that the hon. Member for Pendle what it is they are trying to capture, so that we can truly (Andrew Stephenson) has done both in bringing this understand the impact of this crime. debate to the Chamber and in introducing Jane’s law. I Although nearly 750,000 cases are recorded by the had cause to reflect on that law myself as I had a case in police, only 100,000 ever proceed to prosecution. What my constituency of a woman whose partner had repeatedly is happening to those other 600,000 cases? What are we attacked and assaulted her. The partner is still out on doing to address some of the causes and to understand bail, awaiting sentencing. Having brought in that law, what happens next? My first call to the Minister is for we must ensure that it is used to protect witnesses. As all him to make that commitment about data. We need to Members know, there are some cases that keep one up ensure that both the public and voluntary sectors have at night and that one worries about and that case was the data necessary for us to understand the level of certainly one of them. I spoke to the victim on a regular domestic violence that exists in our society. basis as I worked to get her rehoused and moved away I have a second call for the Minister, and we have from the area and from immediate harm. I was conscious heard many Members, especially on the Opposition that Jane’s law would have made a difference in her case. Benches, making this case and I pay tribute to them. I also welcome the work that the hon. Gentleman has Indeed it is always a unique experience to be in the done today in setting out the challenges that we face in Chamber when my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing addressing domestic violence. There is, I think, a consensus North (Stephen Pound) is speaking, because he brings across the House that this matter needs to be a priority, such passion and genuine emotion to the case. We also not just for our criminal justice system but for our heard my hon. Friends the Members for Bolton West public services as a whole because of the impact that it (Julie Hilling) and for Feltham and Heston (Seema has on so many families across our country. Malhotra) talk about the changes in our benefit system May I welcome the new Minister to his role and put and what impact that might have on victims of domestic on record my thanks to his predecessor? We did not violence. always see eye to eye, but I was certainly grateful for his When we talk about this crime, we are talking assistance in the work that we were doing both in predominantly about women, but I pay tribute to those Walthamstow and nationally. I hope that we can help in the Chamber today who have recognised that men the new Minister by filling his inbox with some suggestions are the victims of domestic violence as well. The concept and proposals that he can take to his colleagues to make of financial control is key to enabling people to leave good on that premise of addressing domestic violence abusive relationships. In the changes that the Government in our communities. All of us recognise that it is a very are making to the benefit system, there is a real danger different type of crime to deal with. More than any that the ability to make that choice to leave will be other criminalised behaviour in our society, it involves restricted. the most repeat victimisation. Intimate violence, as it Hon. Members have already talked about universal tends to get called, requires a different approach from credit. In particular, they have talked about how it will our criminal justice and social care services. The failure be nominated to a single person in a household, and of all of our services to address the matter is reflected in how some 300,000 households will be affected. The the high numbers of serious case reviews that involve decision about who gets that money will be critical to domestic violence and in the numbers of homicides that the choice about how money is spent. Child benefit is involve domestic violence. crucial to many women because it makes them financially Many Members here have already mentioned the independent. Universal credit will go much further in statistics. I am mindful of what the hon. Member for aggregating people’s incomes and therefore the ability Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard) said of people within relationships to make choices about 43WH Domestic Violence11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Domestic Violence 44WH

[Stella Creasy] to change those requirements, so that we can ensure that women who are fleeing from violence are not how money is spent. May I press the Minister to look hampered by the way in which universal credit is again at this issue, and to speak to his colleagues in the administered. Department for Work and Pensions about the decision When it comes to money, however, we are not just to nominate a single person? Can he look at what more talking about financial freedom. Again, Labour Members can be done to stop this measure from being a source of have already spoken very strongly about the cuts to financial control? If a single person is to be nominated funding and the impact that they are having. We know will he ensure that it is the main carer within a family? that, although local authority budgets were cut by 27% We do not want to see women stuck in abusive relationships on average, those organisations working with victims of because they are not able to leave them. domestic violence have experienced a disproportionate I hope that the Minister is pressing his colleagues in cut of 31%. Moreover, that figure masks a further the DWP about the way in which universal credit will be difficulty, because many of those organisations are small paid and the impact it could have on refuges. About organisations that operate on a shoestring; they work 40% of the women who go into refuges tend to be dual on very small budgets. However, we know that those housing benefit claimants. They can claim the money organisations receiving funding of less than £20,000 a on the property they might have fled and also on the year have actually experienced, on average, a 70% cut in cost of staying in a refuge. Under the new provisions, their funding and many of them have now disappeared. such a measure will come under the benefit cap. It is not That is in comparison with those organisations receiving difficult to see how a woman might find herself unable funding of more than £100,000 a year, which have done to keep up a private property, and so a secured tenancy, better. which at some point she may wish to return to with her Those cuts are also filtering through the system. family once the issue about abuse has been resolved or Once again, I urge the Minister to make strong her abuser is in prison, and to pay for a stay in a refuge, representations to his colleagues in the Ministry of let alone pay for the food that her children need or Justice, given that we have already seen 23 specialist transport costs under the cap as currently constructed. domestic violence courts being closed during the past There is a real concern that it will be the cost of staying year. That is despite the fact that we know the difference in a refuge that will fall under that system. those specialist courts make in tackling the issue that I Refuges are a unique form of supported housing for mentioned earlier—the number of domestic violence families. First, they are about not just the individual on cases that are brought to charge. Indeed, given that only the claim but the dependants as well. Secondly, there 58% of those 100,000 cases are successfully prosecuted, are no waiting lists for refuges. Already 230 women a we need to ensure that we have a court system that day are turned away from refuges in this country because understands the issues that we are dealing with and that we do not have enough places, so there is not that ability is able to work with the victims that we are all talking to plan ahead for the need that will be required. Every about. I am sorry to see that the hon. Member for person who turns up at a refuge is in crisis. A refuge Gillingham and Rainham (Rehman Chishti) has now provides only short-stay accommodation. Under the left Westminster Hall, but he ably raised that issue new system, the problem will be not only that the dual about the court system. housing benefit claimant may find themselves not able to pay for a refuge place but that the payment is paid to Seema Malhotra: Does my hon. Friend agree that we the client rather than the landlord. We can see refuges need to get to a point where we will see a step change in having to chase women, who are being moved around the number of successful prosecutions of domestic violence? the country, for payment for their place. The work that It cannot be right that we have such a low rate for has been done by several refuges already suggests that successful prosecutions. Surely we need to look at shifting almost 60% of their income could be affected, which the way that we balance evidence to be in favour of could be crucial to their future survival. those who are victims rather than adopting the default position, which seems to be taking the view that there is We need to do more to ensure that we have refuges. If not enough evidence, or, “We cannot prosecute, because the Minister takes away one message from this debate it’s his word against hers”? We need to say, “Let’s hunt today it is that Opposition Members are desperately for the truth and let’s start to see a step change”, and concerned that the changes through universal credit there should be no complacency in wanting to see a may have severe unintended consequences on the refuge much better outcome through the justice system. movement in the UK. We may see more refuges closing and more women unable to move out of their properties. Stella Creasy: I absolutely agree with my colleague That is before we even get into the difficulties that and, if anything, that is the second message that I hope women then face when they are in refuges and receiving the Minister takes away from our comments today—there support. needs to be a step change in how we as a society address I am sure that the Minister is well versed in some of domestic violence. Clearly, we are not getting it right at the debates about legal aid. Given that 230 women a this point in time. The changes in relation to universal week need legal aid assistance to escape an abusive credit that I briefly mentioned earlier are just a partner and given the relationship that exists between microcosm—the tip of the iceberg—of the way that we being in a refuge and being entitled to legal aid, the need to think differently about how we deal with victims changes could have severe unintended consequences. of domestic violence. My hon. Friend the Member for Ealing North pointed out that the universal credit guidelines will come before Julie Hilling: My hon. Friend was talking about the Parliament shortly. Let me extend a hand across the fundraising element earlier. Does she recognise that House to say that we will work with the Minister to try what is happening in small projects is that those people 45WH Domestic Violence11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Domestic Violence 46WH who are supposed to be working with victims of domestic Above all, however, we need to recognise the benefit violence are having to spend some of their time, or quite of joining up those services and in ensuring that we often a lot of their time, in fundraising, which makes no have that step change in what we do that has been sense? Also, one of the things that is happening because mentioned. Many of us will make the case for tackling of the cuts that are being made to other services is that domestic violence, having dealt with domestic violence often the people dealing with domestic violence are cases in our constituencies, but I want to ensure that the dealing with more complex cases because drug and Minister is aware of the economic benefit of getting this alcohol teams are being cut and other support systems issue right and of why we on the Labour Benches are are also going. So all of those problems are landing in part of the “One Billion and Rising” campaign, which the lap of the domestic violence workers, because the is a campaign to tackle violence against women and other support services are not around. girls, not only in the UK but internationally. The contribution of women to Britain’s economy is huge, but it is held back by the fact that women live in Stella Creasy: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. an unequal society in which violence too often scars the Although I think that the hon. Member for Blackpool lives of women and their families. We know the cost to North and Cleveleys might want to reflect on what he our public services of failing to get domestic violence was saying about payment by results in terms of dealing services right. That is why when we talk about cuts to with violence itself, there is an understanding that the services at a local level, we need to set them against a complexity of the consequences of domestic violence cost-benefit analysis of getting this issue right. Also, we on families means that the complexity of dealing with need to consider the women who are not able to contribute these issues extends far beyond our criminal justice to our society because they live in fear. system. Again, that is why, as my hon. Friend the Member for Feltham and Heston has already said, we I want to work with the Minister to make tackling need a step change in how we address domestic violence, domestic violence a priority in the months and years because it is not just about our criminal justice system. ahead, and I hope that he will address the points that my hon. Friends and I have made today about universal The third issue that I would love to put into the credit, the way that MARACs work and prevention of Minister’s inbox is about the role of multi-agency risk domestic violence, because when all of us leave Westminster assessment conferences, or MARACs. At present, they Hall today and go back and look at our casework we only deal with the most severe 10% of examples of will be all too alive to the fact that we still have a domestic violence. Again, having had personal experience challenge to face. as an MP, as I am sure other Members have also had, of trying to get support for victims of domestic violence, I know that the frustration about the presumption that 12.16 pm there needs to be an escalation before there is action The Minister of State, Home Department (Mr Jeremy and intervention is all too real, whether it involves Browne): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, dealing with housing services, social care or indeed Mr Leigh, and it is a privilege to make my first contribution schools. It is very clear at present that our system is in the House in my capacity as a Minister in the Home designed to deal only with the tip of the iceberg that I Office on this hugely emotional and important subject, referred to before, and yet it is often the case that if we which rightly interests hon. Members from all parties. were able to intervene earlier, be more proactive and I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for join up services around the individual, we might not Pendle (Andrew Stephenson), not only for giving us the only prevent violence but save a family and prevent the opportunity to discuss domestic violence but for the consequences arising from violence. detailed and passionate way that he has raised the issue I think that many Members who are here in Westminster in his campaigning and for his track record of taking Hall today have put on record the need to look again at action against it. I am more than happy to recognise the how we understand where domestic violence is taking substantial contributions to the debate that have been place. I absolutely agreed with the hon. Member for made by my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool Pendle when he talked about violence among young North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard), by the hon. Members people. I am very mindful that one of the priorities for for Bolton West (Julie Hilling) and for Ealing North the Youth Justice Board this year is child-parent abuse (Stephen Pound), and of course by the hon. Member and recognising that, particularly within a gang context, for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy), who is the Opposition there is a lot of evidence about how young men are spokesperson. abusive towards their parents. But that is seen as an I welcome the opportunity to update the House issue for social care and not necessarily as a criminal on what the Government are doing to support victims justice issue, and so those mothers themselves are affected. of domestic violence, because I must say, in a spirit of My hon. Friend the Member for Bolton West also bipartisanship, that substantial progress is being made talked about the cultural changes that we have to address, on many fronts. That progress is not solely due to this given that one in two boys and one in three girls think Government’s efforts; I recognise the efforts that Ministers that it is okay to hit a woman and in some circumstances from all political parties have made during a number of force her to have sex. Clearly, these are complex issues years. Nevertheless, it is right that we should fully that extend far beyond the remit of the police and our understand the considerable efforts that are being made criminal justice system. Therefore, the police and our at the moment to try to address a lot of the concerns criminal justice system need partners in the voluntary that have been raised in this debate. sector and in the health and social care sector, which is I also pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for why common definitions are the starting point of the Pendle for his campaign to amend the bail laws, so that conversations between those bodies. victims of domestic violence have a right of appeal 47WH Domestic Violence11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Domestic Violence 48WH

[Mr Jeremy Browne] It covers what female genital mutilation is, the range of long-lasting damage that it can cause, the legal obligation against bail decisions set by judges. He referred to that to safeguard children and where to go for help if anyone campaign in his opening speech. Of course, before his is worried or affected. There is, therefore, a broad body campaign and the changes that the Government have of work taking place, not just in the Home Office. The made, that was not the case. However, the Government Foreign Office, where I previously served as a Minister, accepted that there was a need to change the law, and he has done work on forced marriage, which relates mainly, will know that the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment but not exclusively, to girls. The girls are British nationals, of Offenders Act 2012 has brought about that change. I but the forced marriages often take place in other am sure that all Members will recognise that that is a countries. substantial benefit for the victims of domestic violence On the role of local commissioners in tackling domestic who find themselves in those circumstances, and it is violence, the Government feel strongly that the procurement much to the credit of my hon. Friend that he provided and commissioning of services is rightly a matter for the political momentum for that change to be made. local authorities. Although the Government have made I want to provide a context to my speech. Many hon. clear our belief that local authorities should attach Members will already know that, in the past year alone, importance to the sector, each council has some discretion there were more than 1 million female victims of domestic about how it prioritises spending. abuse in England and Wales. Therefore, around two We are taking steps across the board to strengthen women every minute, or more than 25 women during the provisions available for tackling domestic violence my short speech this afternoon, will be the victims of and supporting the victims, and I think that it will help domestic abuse. It is deplorable that more than a quarter if I use the remainder of my speech to talk about some of women will experience such abuse during their lifetimes. of the initiatives. My hon. Friend the Member for As has been touched upon by other hon. Members, it is Pendle mentioned Clare’s law, and I am happy to update a tragedy that so few of those women feel able to report him on that. Following the consultation published by that abuse to the authorities or that, if they do feel able, the Home Secretary, we have launched the domestic it takes many repeat circumstances of their being abused violence disclosure scheme, which is being piloted in before they can take that step and go to the authorities. four police forces across England and Wales. The pilots The domestic violence statistics are shocking on their in Wiltshire and Gwent were launched in July, and own; but in addition, more than 300,000 women have those in Nottinghamshire and Greater Manchester started been sexually abused in the past year, and in the same at the beginning of last week. The pilots form part of period the Government’s forced marriage unit has provided our efforts to tackle domestic violence by looking at advice or support on forced marriage in 1,468 cases. new ways of protecting victims and putting tools in The Government’s ambition is to end violence against place to help and support them. The Government believe women and girls. That is why, soon after coming to that disclosing information about the perpetrators of office, we set out a new strategy, followed by a supporting domestic violence will help to protect and support action plan in March 2011, which translated our overarching victims. Very early feedback on the pilots provisionally vision into specific cross-departmental actions. The actions indicates that there are 24 live applications, and five were most recently refreshed in March 2012, importantly disclosures have already been made to potential victims. reaffirming our key themes of prevention, improved The pilots will run until September 2013, and we will partnership working, justice outcomes and risk reduction, then decide whether to roll out the scheme nationally. and the provision of good-quality services. The Government were pleased to hear that Greater Work on these themes has been supported by the Manchester police, along with West Mercia and Wiltshire Government’s provision of nearly £40 million of stable police force areas, will continue to use domestic violence funding up to 2015 for this discrete area, including for protection orders until the Home Office evaluation specialist local domestic and sexual violence support completes next summer. Anecdotal feedback from the services, rape support centres, the national domestic domestic violence protection order pilot indicates that violence helplines and the stalking helpline services, women, and victims generally, welcome the protection, which have not been touched upon in the debate but are as it allows them the breathing space that they need to relevant here. For example, we have provided funding consider their options. for multi-agency risk assessment conference—MARAC— On 8 June, following a detailed consultation on forced co-ordinator posts and independent domestic violence marriage and having listened carefully to all views on adviser—IDVA—posts, which research suggests have the abhorrent practice, Members will recall that the produced a real impact for high-risk domestic violence Prime Minister announced that the Government will victims. We have also granted funding towards 144 IDVA make forcing someone to marry a criminal offence for posts in the 2012-13 financial year, as well as providing the first time. In doing so, we are sending out a clear funding for training. We now have MARACs in more message that the brutal practice is totally unacceptable than 250 areas across England and Wales and have and will not be tolerated in the UK. We are aware, granted MARAC funding towards 54 posts for the however, that legislation alone is not enough and will 2012-13 financial year. I realise that that information is remain focused on prevention and on increasing support perhaps a bit rich in statistics, but it is important that and protection for victims. when the programmes are put in place the House is My hon. Friend the Member for Pendle asked about aware of them. the proposals to change the definition of domestic Meanwhile, other Departments have also demonstrated violence. Our consultation, on whether the current cross- their commitment to tackling violence against women Government definition should be widened, closed on and girls. For example, the Department of Health launched 30 March 2012. We sought views on whether the current a short film for the NHS Choices website in August 2012. definition should remain or be amended to include 49WH Domestic Violence 11 SEPTEMBER 2012 50WH coercive control and extended to 16 and 17-year-olds or Whistleblowing to everyone under the age of 18. We are considering the consultation responses and an announcement will be 12.30 pm made shortly. According to the latest figures, 21 men and 93 women Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab): It is a were killed by a partner or ex-partner in 2010-11. For pleasure to see you in the Chair, Mr Leigh. I welcome cases in which domestic violence results in the death of the Minister to her position and I hope she finds her the victim, the Government have established domestic time in government interesting. I have no doubt that the homicide reviews on a statutory basis under section 9 of experience will be challenging, and I hope she is a the Domestic Violence, Crime and Victims Act 2004. progressive influence on coalition policy in this area. Local areas are, importantly, required to undertake a I am delighted to have secured this debate. I hope the multi-agency review following a domestic homicide, to Minister will leave wanting to make changes to the identify the lessons that can be learned, with a view to Government’s proposals on whistleblowing law contained preventing future homicides and violence. I appreciate in the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill, which is that that is in the most extreme cases only, but the point going through the House. I hope she will want to was made in the debate about trying to co-ordinate consider that area of law in detail. I appreciate the different Government agencies. The provision also allows matter is complex, and I am pleased that she will the Secretary of State, in particular cases, to direct that consider it so early in her ministerial career. a specified reluctant person or body establish or participate I have worked with Public Concern at Work, which in a review. Furthermore, the Government made a has a strong track record on this issue and was influential commitment in the refreshed violence against women in the period leading up to the introduction of the and girls action plan, published in March 2012, to legislation, and I thank it for supporting me in the develop lead-up to this debate and for providing briefings. “a training package for chairpersons of Domestic Homicide Reviews”, The provisions that currently protect whistleblowers are contained in the landmark Public Interest Disclosure and that will be extended later this year across England Act 1998 introduced by the previous Labour Government. and Wales. The Act was introduced after many decades of campaigning Contributors to the debate have made the point that, by many people, both inside this place and outside, although the majority of victims of domestic violence from both sides of the political divide. At the time, the are women, there are, of course, male victims as well. Act put the United Kingdom at the forefront of corporate Domestic violence is one of those forms of violence governance legislation. Whistleblowing is often our only that affect men, and many men are reluctant, perhaps in way to find out what is going on inside corporations some cases for different reasons from women, to admit and institutions. that they are victims. The Government take the issue seriously, and we support the Men’s Advice Line, which In health and social care there is no doubt that the is for all men who experience violence from a current or Act has saved lives. The lack of transparency in ex-partner, and Broken Rainbow, which provides advice organisations in this country is a major problem. There to lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people affected is a culture of people not feeling that they can speak out by domestic violence. In 2011-12, we have allocated about serious wrongdoings and problems. funding to the tune of £100,000 for a male victims and sexual violence fund, to support services that focus on Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): I male victims of sexual and domestic violence, and we congratulate the hon. Lady on securing this important have assigned a further £125,000 for continued support debate. I recently represented the medical director of in 2012-13. Medway Maritime hospital in a bullying case before Time is short, so before I conclude, I want to thank the Care Quality Commission under its whistleblowing everyone who has contributed to the debate. I am more procedure. Does the hon. Lady agree that the Bill’s than happy to take on board the points made by the proposals will still allow NHS staff to whistleblow hon. Member for Walthamstow about the need to ensure where they think it appropriate? that all features of Government contribute to what we are trying to achieve. Katy Clark: I will address the position in the NHS later in my speech, but the hon. Gentleman is right that Stella Creasy: We have talked about universal credit, whistleblowing legislation has been important, particularly and there is a concern that is shared across the House. in the NHS. My concern, as I will illustrate, is that some Will the Minister commit to going back to his colleagues cases will be more difficult to bring if the proposals are in the Department for Work and Pensions and challenging enacted, even though many people may still be able to them on the point about dual housing benefit and rely on the legislation. benefit being paid to the tenant for refuges, so that we Many who campaigned for the legislation in the early can ensure that the refuge movement does not suffer days, and organisations such as the Trades Union Congress further financial difficulties? that are directly involved in litigating on behalf of Mr Browne: I have seen that the refuges in my whistleblowers, are concerned that the Government’s constituency are extremely successful, and I certainly proposals will water down the protections afforded to want to ensure that they continue to do their work whistleblowers and will make it more difficult for those unimpeded, so if we can take action to ensure that who should be able to rely on the legislation’s protection. outcome, I will certainly do my best to achieve it. As the hon. Gentleman may know, much of the case law that has developed since the original Act has made it more difficult for people to rely on the whistleblowing legislation. My contention is that the Government’s 51WH Whistleblowing11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Whistleblowing 52WH

[Katy Clark] told me that they have lost their job and are fighting to regain it, the cost implication of which means, in many proposals will be a further step in the wrong direction. cases, that they have no money left. When the whistleblowing legislation was introduced, it was intended to be accessible, clear and predictable with Katy Clark: The hon. Gentleman makes a powerful as much certainty as possible for those accessing the point that shows the need for whistleblowing legislation justice system. The Government’s proposals, by placing and for strengthening existing legislation. on the individual the burden of deciding whether a Dame Janet Smith in the Shipman inquiry stated that disclosure is in the public interest, will undermine those good faith is a barrier to whistleblowers, which is borne principles. out by recent reports from the Mid Staffordshire inquiry, I do not suggest that there is no need to consider the which may be reporting in October, and the Leveson law on whistleblowing. There has been no post-legislative inquiry. The Government say they are introducing a scrutiny of the 1998 Act, and after a decade many issues public interest test to overcome a legal loophole whereby have been raised that need to be addressed. I contend individuals are able to raise concerns about their own that the Government’s proposals will make the position personal employment contracts. The loophole arose more difficult. as the result of the case of Parkins v. Sodexho. The Over the years, several cases have shown that the Government propose to address it with a public interest current legislation does not protect those who suffer disclosure test that will have implications far beyond the detriment or reprisal at the hands of co-workers. There type demonstrated in that case. is also confusion about disclosure of information and Indeed, it is far from clear that the proposed new allegations. There is no protection for people who are wording would have helped in the Parkins case. It is wrongly identified as whistleblowers, and there is no clear, however, that the Government’s proposals will protection at the pre-employment stage, which needs to mean that all applicants will have to meet the additional be rectified to avoid issues such as blacklisting. Blacklisting, hurdle of a public interest test that does not apply of course, is a big issue for many trade unionists in this currently. That hurdle may discourage some from making country. disclosures that are in the public interest. We ask the The Government have no proposals to address those Minister to address that in her response. problems. Particularly in the health sector, recent case We also ask her to address the issue of gagging law and media stories have highlighted the difficulties clauses. The provisions of the Public Interest Disclosure that general practitioners, students, nurses, doctors, Act 1998 ensure that no one can be prevented from volunteers, non-executive directors and prospective job making a public disclosure and that any attempt to applicants have in relying on the legislation. Therefore, prevent it, for example in a compromise agreement or the definition of “worker” needs to be widened to settlement agreement, is void. However, gagging clauses include those groups, as well as priests, foster carers and seem to be used in the public sector, particularly in the no doubt many others. national health service, to prevent individuals from talking about policy concerns. She may be aware of the Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the recent press coverage surrounding the former chief executive hon. Lady on securing this Westminster Hall debate. of United Lincolnshire Hospitals, where there was said to be a super-gag on discussing patient safety, along I have been involved in a case over the past two years with a severance deal that I am told was worth more on behalf of one of my constituents who is a whistleblower. than £500,000. Will she consider the suggestion that Through my engagement with him and the bodies that lawyers advising on settlements should be required to are supposed to give protection, I have noticed that, confirm that they have explained to their client the when it comes to big business, the whistleblower is often anti-gagging provisions in the Public Interest Disclosure pushed to the side. The Government are considering Act 1998? legislative changes, so does the hon. Lady feel that it is necessary for the Government to put in place support As I have outlined, I believe that the Government both to ensure that whistleblowers can provide information need to consider the issue, but not in the piecemeal way and to protect the general public? All this is about suggested in the legislation. Organisations such as Public protecting the general public in big business, health and Concern at Work are calling for a thorough review of wherever else. the operation of all aspects of the legislation, along with a full consultation involving all those with an interest, whether they come from business, trade unions Katy Clark: Many Members will have been involved or other organisations. Whistleblowing legislation needs as constituency MPs in trying to assist constituents who to be strengthened, and I hope that the Minister, in her are whistleblowers or are thinking about whistleblowing. new position, is willing to take on that challenge. A recent YouGov survey showed that only 26% of the In the short time available, I ask the Minister to work force are aware of the legislation. In many parts of address the following points. Given that a number of society, there is little awareness that whistleblowing is changes have been necessary as a result of the legislation’s legitimate and lawful in certain circumstances, as set out operation, does she accept that the time is now right in the legislation. for a thorough review? Is she willing to proceed with that? How will the Government take into account the Jim Shannon: The hon. Lady will be aware, as many findings of the Mid Staffordshire and Leveson public people both inside and outside this Chamber are aware, inquiries into whistleblowing? Will the Government that whistleblowing often has a detrimental effect on a ensure that vicarious liability exists within the Public whistleblower’s livelihood and job. Many of the people Interest Disclosure Act 1998 so that workers can rely on I have spoken to, both constituents and others, have the legislation? How will the Government deal with the 53WH Whistleblowing11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Whistleblowing 54WH problem highlighted by Public Concern at Work and whistleblowers, and we agree that it is incredibly important others relating to the definition of “worker in health that employees feel able to speak up about workplace care”? I believe that Ministers in the Department of issues affecting the public interest. Health are very aware of those concerns. In responding, I will say a little about the change to If the Government proceed with their proposals as the Act proposed in the Enterprise and Regulatory currently drafted in the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Reform Bill. It aims to fix a specific issue that has arisen Bill, will they produce guidance on what is and is not in as a result of the judgment in the case of Parkins v. the public interest? There are concerns that the legislation Sodexho Ltd 2002, whose effect was to widen the scope will produce a huge amount of litigation as well as a of the Act beyond what was originally intended, leading great deal of confusion for those seeking to rely on it. the legislation to be used opportunistically in some What will the Government do to promote the provisions cases to address matters of purely private interest. There of the 1998 Act, given the low level of public awareness is wide agreement that the effect of Parkins v. Sodexho and the fact that many cases have made it more difficult must be addressed, and I recognise that the hon. Lady to rely on whistleblowing legislation? I appreciate that understands that it is a problem that needs rectifying. this is a complex area of law and the Minister is new to There are slightly differing views about how that should her post, but I hope that she will respond as fully as be done, and it is right that those should be debated and possible. scrutinised thoroughly in the House. The relevant clause of the Enterprise and Regulatory 12.43 pm Reform Bill was debated in Committee of the House on 3 July. During that debate, my hon. Friend the Member The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb) set out in detail the Innovation and Skills (Jo Swinson): It is a great pleasure reasons for the Government’s approach. I do not intend to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Leigh, particularly to repeat all his arguments, but we believe that the as this is my first of no doubt many Adjournment Government’s approach of inserting a public interest debates in Westminster Hall. I congratulate the hon. test is the only way of fully closing the loophole created Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark) on by Parkins v. Sodexho while avoiding the possible securing this important debate. She has a strong track unintended consequences of alternative approaches. record of campaigning, particularly for workers’ rights. In preparing for this debate, I looked at some of the I know that that was her background in professional life figures demonstrating the scale of the issue. In the first before coming to the House, and she has continued it in year after PIDA was passed, 157 protections were applied an excellent manner while she has been here. We entered for. As one might expect with a new piece of legislation, Parliament together, and it is a delight to respond to her that number increased as awareness increased, to 400 or on this occasion. I thank her for her kind congratulations 500 in 2002. Since the ruling, it has expanded rapidly, so and good wishes to me in my new role. I hope that we that in 2011-12, about 2,500 applications were made will be able to engage constructively, as I know that she under PIDA. has a significant contribution to make in this area of her expertise. There are different ways of interpreting those figures. One is that there is lots of whistleblowing and it is a It is nice that my first Adjournment debate has allowed wonderful success of the Act, but I think that it is me to look into whistleblowing in more detail. As the understood that application for protection is often being hon. Lady mentioned, it is a complex and specific area added on in employment cases. Most cases do not even of law. I will do my best to answer her questions, but if come to tribunal, as the majority are settled in other there are any outstanding issues, I will be more than ways. Of the 2,500 in the last year we have figures for, happy to write to her and engage with her in future. No more than 900 ended up in a conciliated settlement doubt there will be further debate on Report of the through ACAS and more than 600 were withdrawn or Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill, which will return privately settled. There is, therefore, concern about it to the House of Commons in due course. being used in an opportunistic fashion in some cases. I Whistleblowing is an important issue. It is important think that that is recognised, and so we need to deal to recognise why the Public Interest Disclosure Act with it. 1998 was passed in the first place. From a range of In preparing for the debate, I wondered what the disasters, incidents and other cases, such as the dreadful controversy was in requiring that the Public Interest events on Piper Alpha, it became clear that there was Disclosure Act 1998 had to include a public interest not enough protection for people who blew the whistle test, because there is a basic logic to that—it does what to raise concerns about health and safety issues or other it says on the tin. When it was originally drafted, it was matters of public interest, and that that situation needed almost taken for granted that, because of the title of the to be put right so that people would have the ability and Bill, it would be used for cases that were genuinely in the confidence to speak out in such circumstances without public interest. I am convinced it is within the original fear of losing their jobs or other detriment. spirit of the Act that the person making the application It is fair to say it was a landmark piece of legislation, for its protection should reasonably believe they are introduced by the Labour Government, to whom credit raising an issue in the public interest, so we are just is due. However, it is also important to note and remember trying to prevent the tactical, opportunistic use of PIDA that it attracted cross-party support as well, because by those who claim that protection to raise purely Members throughout the House recognised that change personal issues. was needed. The Act meant that for the first time, employees raising genuine concerns about wrongdoing Jim Shannon: I congratulate the Minister on her in the workplace were protected. This Government promotion and wish her well in her new job. I am sure strongly support the protection that the Act gives that she will be aware of a new organisation that has 55WH Whistleblowing11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Whistleblowing 56WH

[Jim Shannon] the work force, and the concern about the ruling was that employers would perhaps not have a responsibility been set up in the past month, perhaps just outside the to do something about that. The ruling was specific, legislative consultation process in which we are now however, and took the view that in that case the NHS involved, on behalf of whistleblowers who have got had taken reasonable steps. Therefore, I would not together to promote their cases. Does the Minister necessarily assume that there is a guarantee that employers intend to contact that organisation to get its input into never need to do anything. The judgment is perhaps not the process, so that the voice of whistleblowers is heard as crystal clear as some would like, but clearly an fully? employer that does not do enough to prevent an employee being victimised by other employees could themselves Jo Swinson: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his be liable for their failure to act if it can be shown that intervention and kind words, and for his contribution the employee has made a protected disclosure, so there to my knowledge on this matter. I have not come across is perhaps some reassurance about those concerns. that new organisation which has only been in existence There is another potential remedy in the law. An for a month, but my approach is to welcome any employer could be vicariously liable under other legislation, organisation or individual that wishes to ensure that its such as the Protection from Harassment Act 1997, concerns are heard. I would be happy to read a submission depending on the circumstances of the individual case. from that organisation if he is able to pass on its contact It is also possible that an employee who had experienced details after the debate. that could argue that the employer had acted to destroy The hon. Lady mentioned concerns about the burden the relationship of mutual trust and confidence, and of proof, which she felt would be unhelpful to individuals. thereby bring a claim for constructive dismissal. Clearly, it will be up to the tribunal to decide whether On the Shipman inquiry and the good faith test, we that test is met. I do not think that having to bring do not see its purpose as being interchangeable with the something in the public interest is a hurdle that will stop public interest test. The good faith test prevents an people bringing cases forward. It will promote consistency individual from making a disclosure for a malicious in the legislation and underlines the principle that the purpose; for example, to deliberately cause commercial 1998 Act, with the right and proper extra protections it damage to their employer. The public interest test deals offers, is concerned with a public rather than a private separately with the fact that the disclosure must be of interest. In the autumn statement, we announced we public, rather than private interest. The good faith would fix that specific issue, and it will be done through requirement is not intended to operate as an additional the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill. barrier to genuine whistleblowers. The hon. Lady raised a wide range of issues. There The hon. Lady raised the Leveson and Mid Staffordshire are no current plans to review the legislation more inquiries. They are large inquiries in their own right and widely as the Act is generally operating well and as deal with a wide array of different issues, much wider intended, but I will reflect on the matters she has raised than the specific provisions of the Public Interest Disclosure in such a thoughtful manner. Act. The Department of Health has published its response The Government provide guidance on making protected to the Mid Staffordshire inquiry and is continuing to disclosures, and the hon. Lady asked about how it promote whistleblowing in the NHS. would be promoted. Of course, in light of the proposed On the categories and definitions of “worker”, we are change to the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill already in dialogue with stakeholders and the Department we will consider whether the guidance needs to be of Health about the categories of worker that are revised at all. I understand the genuine concern relating covered. It is important that individuals who should be to the survey that suggests that many people are entirely included are not inadvertently excluded from the scope unaware of the protection. It is worth putting on the of the Act. I hope she will be reassured that those record the Government’s thanks for the excellent efforts discussions are ongoing with a genuine desire to ensure made by Public Concern at Work in promoting the Act that people are properly covered. and bringing it to the attention of more workers. It is She asked for a more thorough, wide-ranging review important that it is widely understood. of the Act in its entirety. At the moment, there is not She asked a specific question about whether lawyers necessarily a case for that, but, as I said, I will reflect on will inform their clients. They have a general duty to the points that she has made. There are various issues, advise a client on any aspect of the law that is relevant and it is important to ensure that they are all considered to the situation, as she will know from her professional on an ongoing basis. life, and that includes advising on public interest disclosure rights. That does not need to be set down in legislation, Katy Clark: I particularly raised concerns about the but is a duty that any legal professional would fall way that the NHS operates in its use of gagging clauses. under. Will she discuss that with the Department of Health? Turning to other issues that were raised, there has There is a great deal of public concern that information been a suggestion from Public Concern at Work that the it would be helpful to have in the public domain is not Government should copy the vicarious liability provisions being put there because of individuals’fear of victimisation. of the Equality Act 2010. Aspects of the 2010 Act are currently under review, particularly in relation to vicarious Jo Swinson: I will certainly undertake to bring that liability. While that is ongoing, further changes to PIDA issue to the attention of my colleagues in the Department would be premature. I am also aware of the concern of Health. I share her concerns and will come back to about the judgment in the Fecitt case, in particular. An her on them. We need to ensure that the protections in employee who blows the whistle could be subject to the Act are being properly applied, so I will look at the inappropriate bullying behaviour by other members of issue. On the whole, we believe that the Public Interest 57WH Whistleblowing 11 SEPTEMBER 2012 58WH

Disclosure Act continues to work well. The change we Diabetes (Care in Schools) are making in the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill will provide clarity for individuals and employers. It 1pm will maintain protection for genuine whistleblowers and prevent misuse of the legislation. We remain convinced Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con): It is a pleasure that it is the best way to ensure that the Act maintains to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Leigh. I thank its purpose, effectiveness and credibility. Mr Speaker for selecting this important debate on type 1 diabetes in schools. I congratulate the Minister on his promotion in the reshuffle. I was inspired to request this debate after being contacted by a family with two boys who both suffer from type 1 diabetes and require multiple finger-prick blood tests and insulin injections daily, just as Rufus the bear, who also has type 1 diabetes, needs help. They have experienced many problems in organising the management of their children’s care in school, particularly for the youngest who is still in primary school, a cheerful child who was diagnosed early at the age of two, but is not yet completely stable, even though he is now 10. He loves sports and wants, as anybody would, to be treated just the same as any other child of the same age. Type 1 is not his lifestyle choice; it is a problem with his immune system, causing it to turn on itself and destroy the cells in his pancreas that produce the insulin that we all need to live. If his blood sugar is not kept at a stable level, this increases the risk of long-term complications, such as kidney disease, blindness, stroke and nerve damage. There are an estimated 29,000 children with type 1 diabetes, who are usually diagnosed between 10 and 14, but the incidence of type 1 in children under five is increasing by 5% year on year. The UK has the highest number of children with diagnosed diabetes in Europe, but the lowest number of children attaining good diabetes control. Living with type 1 diabetes has a profound impact on children and their families: there are no days off and even a few hours of trying to forget can be dangerous. Living with this complex, chronic condition is at times unbearable for many parents. Many children with type 1 diabetes will struggle to keep their condition under control. It is important to manage food, insulin and the amount of physical activity that a child does. We encourage children to do at least 60 minutes’ of physical activity a day, but this can cause complications in children with type 1 diabetes. The way that these factors are managed directly affects a child’s attendance and performance at school. A survey by Diabetes UK showed that three in five schools do not have a policy on advising staff how to give medication.

Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the hon. Lady on securing the debate. This week in Northern Ireland, a group of parents felt unable to send their type 1 diabetic children to school, as they were not convinced that staff were fully trained in how to deal with a crisis. Does the hon. Lady feel that better co-ordination is needed between schools, those dealing with health and parents, so that everyone understands what is needed at school?

Pauline Latham: The hon. Gentleman raises an important point that I intend to deal with later. I should like to raise a number of concerns relating to one young boy that also relate to the thousands of families in the UK who have children with type 1 diabetes 59WH Diabetes (Care in Schools)11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Diabetes (Care in Schools) 60WH

[Pauline Latham] Pauline Latham: I will mention care that can help children, and creating a level playing field throughout and are struggling with inconsistent care provided at the country, because it is important that all children are schools. Every parent of a child with diabetes has the treated equally. right to know when leaving children at school that the The parent of a child in Derby is concerned that he is appropriate care systems will be in place to allow that not being taken seriously by the head teacher of the child to have the same access as others to high-quality school. That is inexcusable. Three parties must each education, care and support, without exclusion from take responsibility of the care of a child with diabetes: activities. the parents, the school and the medical specialists at the hospital. It is also clear that the needs of each child will Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) vary, and therefore their care must be viewed individually (Con): I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this for it to be planned effectively. With this in mind, the important debate. I am glad that she has moved on to individual health care plans suggested by the Essex the support of young people suffering from diabetes, protocol are a proactive and sensible method of ensuring because it is not just about the practical elements of that the care of a child is taken into account when they care and management of the condition. Too many are at home and at school. young people feel a stigma attached to their suffering Sensible planning will save lives. Such planning will from a condition that they have no say over and cannot give the parent the opportunity to say, for example, that control. Does she agree that emotional support is almost under no circumstances should their child be allowed to as critical as the practical and physical medical support? walk alone when feeling unwell or to go up and down stairs, because if a hypoglycaemic attack occurs and a Pauline Latham: Yes. I thank my hon. Friend for her child becomes unconscious, falling down stone steps in intervention. Young children and those in their teens some older schools can be a matter of life or death. hate to be different and need such support to ensure that they do not feel that they are different. Parents also I would like all pupils with type 1 diabetes to have need support, because it is difficult if they are not individual health care plans. It is important for all completely confident, when leaving a vulnerable child at parties involved with care of a child to keep a copy of school, that the school is in full control of care and the plan and understand what it means. No policy like what is going on with the child. this should simply be read once, then put on a shelf and ignored. The Essex protocol suggests that the head It is important that all school staff have a good teacher nominate at least two members of staff who are awareness of type 1 diabetes and know what to do in an willing and able to undertake further training to enable emergency, for example, in a hypoglycaemic episode. the school to meet the health care needs of a child. I Sadly, this is not so and there are huge discrepancies agree with that, but would like to go further. across England in the quality of care provided to children at school. It is a postcode lottery. Even if members of staff at a school are nominated and given full training, it is unlikely that either of these While working alongside my constituent to ensure members of staff will be with the child at all times, that the required care is put in place for the boy in which means that, should a child become unwell, another question, the Essex protocol was brought to my attention. child may need to leave the classroom to fetch the The Essex protocol is a set of guidelines produced with specially trained staff member, using up valuable minutes. parents and partners by Essex county council to ensure Should one of the trained members of staff be on that school staff are supported and given the right annual leave and the other absent due to sickness, once equipment to support pupils with diabetes. These guidelines again, the pupil could be left in a vulnerable position. are invaluable when it comes to protecting the safety of Therefore, in addition to the two staff being trained, as a child and, of course, parents’ peace of mind. suggested by the Essex protocol, I want them to come If a school in Essex is insured through the council back and train all the other members of staff in each and has followed the protocol guidelines, they are fully primary school, whether teachers, teaching assistants or covered by the school’s insurers. Leeds, Birmingham admin staff. Pupils, too, should be educated about what and Exeter also have appropriate guidelines. The guidelines diabetes can mean and that it is not something that the should be of the same standard and applied throughout children have chosen to do if they go hypo from time to the UK, because at the moment there is huge variation time. In a secondary school, each department should in the quality of care that a child receives in their have one trained member of staff. A nurse in every school. The very existence of this variation raises serious school would be ideal, but I recognise that that has a questions about the confidence that can be placed in huge cost implication. It would be useful, however, if those who have the duty of care for the child throughout nurses could come in and retrain the staff periodically, the school day. so that they are always up to date. In all schools it is important that all teachers, including Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): I congratulate my temporary and supply teachers, understand the basic hon. Friend on securing the debate. My constituent, needs of children with diabetes, so that there is no Darcy Evans, who suffers from type 1 diabetes is fortunate chance of children being denied access to a snack or to have an excellent school nurse in her school, but is medication. That does happen, when they might be concerned that other children should have the same told, “No, you can’t eat, because you’re not allowed to access. What does my hon. Friend think could be done eat in the classroom.” The Essex protocol recommends to even out, to a higher standard, the quality of care that for a diabetic emergency all school staff should across schools and to ensure that it is not only teachers have an awareness of diabetes and be able to offer who are informed, but even pupils, because the reaction practical assistance to the child during such an emergency. of fellow pupils is also important? I completely agree with that idea, and parents up and 61WH Diabetes (Care in Schools)11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Diabetes (Care in Schools) 62WH down the country do, too. I ask the Minister to look I, too, have spoken in the past on children’s health into enforcing the requirement in schools all over the conditions, and I understand and am very much aware country, possibly using the skills of charities such as of the challenges that affected children might have to JDRF which provides free education packs for all schools face in school and outside it if they have a chronic condition to support pupils, parents and staff throughout the such as diabetes, which affects one in 550 school-age UK, and into providing bears, so that the young children children. We are not talking about an insignificant are not frightened of testing because the bear has to do number of children. My hon. Friend also alluded to my it as well. It is important for the Government to set out being reasonably new to the great machinations of the the exact responsibility for the provision and funding Department for Education, but I shall endeavour to do for such training, so that all schools know exactly where my best to address all the points that she made. On they are. anything I am not able to address today, I shall make I have become concerned because the parents in the every effort to fulfil my duty by engaging in correspondence case to which I referred have had to go to great lengths with her, to ensure that she has all the answers for which to argue for trained adult support for their child in she has posed questions. school. That is simply not right. Sadly, my research into I am acutely aware and conscious of the often draining the topic has revealed that, while the Government impact on parents of a child with type 1 or type 2 recommend that schools and their employees should diabetes. Day to day, they have to manage the condition, have policies in place for the management of pupils’ which is lifelong. It is important to recognise the huge medicines and their medical needs, the school staff have contribution of parents to ensuring that their children no actual legal duty to provide medical support, administer have as happy and as normal a childhood as possible. medication or supervise a pupil taking it. As far as I can Without doubt, it is vital that children with diabetes see, that means ultimately that schools do not have to are able lead the same full and active life as children take responsibility for children with diabetes, in spite of without diabetes—there should be no discrimination, having such children in their care each and every day. and the Equality Act 2010 makes it absolutely clear that Naturally, if a school is not receptive to the needs of that applies within schools. With proper support, children the child, as in the case I referred to, parents will be with diabetes should be able to participate fully in worried continuously when sending their children to school life and to enjoy their time there along with their school. With that in mind, I refer to the Equality Act friends, not feeling left out in the way that my hon. 2010, which places a duty on schools to make reasonable Friend has described in some cases. For that reason, it is adjustments. Unfortunately, it is all too common that right to encourage schools to do all that they can to children who suffer from diabetes and other health support pupils with medical needs, including diabetes. conditions are excluded from school trips, physical education lessons and social events because of care concerns. Teachers have to consider many conditions when They must be given equal access to the enrichment looking at the provision and support for children in programmes that schools can provide, and those children school. Fortunately, there are many examples of schools should be able to enjoy school life to the full, with the excelling in doing precisely that. We expect schools, necessary support provided, in particular because we do employers, staff, parents and local health services to not want to stigmatise children with type 1 or type 2 work together in the interests of such children—very diabetes. much as hon. Members have been encouraging them to do in today’s debate—to ensure that they are not Parents must of course take responsibility for their disadvantaged at school. The 26,500 children affected children, and review and update their individual health by type 1 diabetes in the UK is a significant number, so care plan as appropriate, but it is equally important that the issue is of real importance to the families and schools also take responsibility when they have children teachers directly involved with those children’s lives. with health conditions such as type 1 diabetes in their care. I want the Government to be absolutely clear As my hon. Friend pointed out, by necessity children when it comes to clarity of responsibility, and to set out diagnosed with type 1 diabetes must learn quickly how the duties of schools and of local authorities so that we to manage their condition themselves: how to monitor can ensure a continuous quality of care for all children their blood sugar; how to choose meals in the school with diabetes and stamp out the current postcode lottery. dining room with an appropriate carbohydrate content; The Government need to address an issue that applies what precautions to take when they exercise and play to thousands and thousands of families with young sports; and how to manage their insulin infusions or to children throughout the UK. I urge the new Minister to do their own injections, which they might have to do as take that on board and to talk with his counterparts in many as four times a day. I have certainly seen that in government to ensure that we have a coherent policy for my constituency, when visiting schools and learning all children with type 1 diabetes or any other chronic about some of the conditions that children have to live illness. with day to day and how responsibly many children are in facing up to the challenge. 1.14 pm Such a task is challenging for children or young The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education people, and we cannot expect them to do it on their (Mr Edward Timpson): It is a pleasure to serve under own, without the proper support. They need that support, your chairmanship, Mr Leigh. I congratulate my hon. and without it in place, it is all too easy for the children Friend the Member for Mid Derbyshire (Pauline Latham) to be distracted from their learning and from feeling on securing this extremely important debate. I welcome safe and happy at school—quite apart from the stigma her constructive and well informed speech, as well as that can be associated with the condition, as mentioned the not insignificant contribution of Rufus the bear, by hon. Members. It is also important that children which unfortunately might not otherwise have gone with diabetes are not excluded from school trips or PE down in the Hansard history. lessons due to a lack of understanding of the condition 63WH Diabetes (Care in Schools)11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Diabetes (Care in Schools) 64WH

[Mr Edward Timpson] and can access continuing support, which includes receiving advice from juvenile diabetes specialist nurses in local by their school. If that happens, the word must go out health services when they are present. that that is not only unacceptable but ultimately It is clear that the effective management of long-term discriminatory. conditions helps children to improve their academic The first priority for any family with a diabetic child attainment and enables children with additional health is to ensure that school staff and fellow pupils understand needs to be included in the wider life of the school. That the condition and, in particular, what to look for should is extremely important. Teachers have a responsibility the child suffer low blood sugar or even a hypo. Safety to ensure that pupils with diabetes can fulfil their educational must be the No. 1 priority. That is particularly important potential, and it is in everyone’s interest to learn about for the newly diagnosed and for very young children, diabetes, how to manage emergencies and how to support who may find it more difficult to help themselves. The pupils with diabetes. In many ways, that goes beyond key to success is common sense. the education system, and there is a much wider debate to be had about pupils’ understanding of what diabetes Parents, staff and health professionals should work is and how it manifests itself not just in adults, but in together, sharing information and agreeing responsibilities children. If people are more aware of that, there may be that reflect the personal requirements of the individual greater potential for local collaboration to be more child. It is important that staff work together to ensure effective. that, in every situation and at all times, someone at the The Government have made it clear that they want school has the training and understanding of what is to give schools maximum freedom to use their own required if an episode occurs or an injection is required. professional judgment and to decide their own priorities. They should ensure that protocols are agreed and followed As my hon. Friend said, there is no legal duty on and that the specific needs of individual pupils are fully teaching staff to provide medical support, to administer addressed and accommodated. Access to medicine and medication or to supervise a pupil taking medication. appropriate snacks should always be allowed. There are no plans at this stage to change that. It is for It is crucial for children with diabetes to control their individual schools to make decisions about the managing condition well, because the long-term complications medicine policies and protocols, but they are funded to may be life-threatening, as my hon. Friend said—not to provide continuing professional development and training mention the massive cost to the health service of for staff, and it is their responsibility to ensure that such complications. Adequate support at school can affect a needs are met for children with diabetes. young person’s confidence in taking control of their It is right that schools should take responsibility for condition at that vital early stage. It is also important managing their own approach to medicines, and guidance that teachers are sensitive to the bullying that may result is available to support them. We encourage local authorities when a child lacks confidence or feels different because and schools to adopt the guidance in the booklet, of their condition. I have come across that in my “Managing Medicines in Schools and Early YearsSettings”, constituency. which was produced in 2005. Appropriately, it provides Long-term medical conditions can impact negatively joint guidance from the Department for Education and on academic attainment and pupils’ psychological well- Department of Health, and it explains the roles and being. That should provide a strong incentive for teachers responsibilities for administering medicines on school when considering how to support pupils with diabetes. premises. The guidance aims to ensure that children If they want to do what they are there to do—to get with medical needs are effectively supported, and work pupils to learn and to fulfil their academic potential— is ongoing as we speak to review and update the guidance supporting them and helping them to control their to make it fit and proper for the future. It also contains diabetes is an important step in achieving that. a template for a health care plan, which my hon. Friend discussed. There is no excuse for schools not putting The good news is that there are many examples of such plans in place. effective practice throughout the education system. The Schools can also make use of the excellent resources vast majority of schools adequately manage pupils’ created by the Medical Conditions at School Partnership, medical needs, and it is right that we trust them to do of which Diabetes UK is an active and important that and to make relationships work at local level. member. I am sure that my hon. Friend is aware that its However, I am aware—this has been articulated further website holds specialist advice about pupils with type 1 today—that some parents believe that schools do not diabetes to help schools and school health care professionals do enough to help them and their children. Some to support such pupils. There are also resources for employers—schools and local authorities—feel that they holding diabetes awareness sessions that can be used by bear a significant risk if something goes wrong. Some schools to inform and train staff in a format that is staff, particularly support staff, feel that they are left to accurate, reliable, easy to use and well presented. Similarly, deal with children with inadequate or insufficient training, it is right to say that Diabetes UK has excellent online or are asked to carry out procedures they are not resources for schools to use. comfortable with. That remains a problem even today, but such feelings should be unnecessary and may lead My hon. Friend alluded to the Juvenile Diabetes to distress for the child concerned, their family and the Research Foundation, which launched a resource pack school. in September 2008. During the last school year, 2011-12, it sent packs to more than 2,000 primary schools. I We want relevant school staff to be competent in believe that it is in the process this month of sending out managing pupils’ health needs and to feel confident in similar packs to secondary schools. There is plenty of doing so. Schools should ensure that staff understand information, advice and guidance out there for schools the school’s responsibilities, have appropriate training to take on board. 65WH Diabetes (Care in Schools)11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Diabetes (Care in Schools) 66WH

Pauline Latham: On that specific point, I have spoken clinic, provided certain strict criteria are met. The best- to JDRF and I intend to send packs to every primary practice tariff includes a requirement for 24-hour support and secondary school in my constituency, so that they and advice to be available to patients and their families. will have no excuse for not knowing about the situation. To ensure that the child receives the best care that they can offer, that will include additional contacts by the diabetes specialist team for check-ups, telephone Mr Timpson: I suspect that that is music to the ears, contacts, school visits, e-mails, troubleshooting, advice, and I commend my hon. Friend for taking that course support and so on. Eight contacts per year are of action. Perhaps other hon. Members should consider recommended as a minimum. I hope that my hon. following suit, because there is clearly not only a need, Friend agrees that that is a new and significant incentive but an appetite for that to be followed through across for local health services to provide additional support the education sector. I commend my hon. Friend for for young diabetic children. leading by example. The coalition Government place a sharp focus on I do not believe that it is the task of central Government robust standards across the education system and the to provide specialist medical advice for schools. It is for highest quality of teaching, and rightly so. But if children the excellent third sector organisations, such as Diabetes are to enjoy and progress at school, it is vital that UK and JDRF, which employ highly skilled medical schools provide a secure and happy environment where practitioners and work closely with their members, to they can focus on learning, and for children with diabetes support and advise them on specific issues. that includes oversight of their well-being and safety. My hon. Friend mentioned the Essex protocol, which Parents also need, and should always have, the assurance provides an excellent template for all local authorities that their child’s school provides a secure environment. and schools to use, or to adapt, to meet local circumstances. We all agree that we need to help pupils with diabetes She cited inconsistent services and a postcode lottery of to grow in confidence, independence and well-being. I care in schools, and it goes without saying that that is do not support further Government intervention or totally unacceptable. I highly commend the protocol to legislation, which would be heavy-handed and unnecessary, those schools and local authorities that may be reviewing but I believe that every child or young person with their own practices and are seeking a tried and tested diabetes should have an individualised, evidence-based model as a basis for improving their care of pupils with care plan with agreed review dates. All schools should type 1 diabetes. I trust that many more schools will take aim to have those in place, and the Essex protocol is a it on. good starting point. I am pleased to report that from April 2012 paediatric I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising this diabetes services will attract a best-practice tariff payment important issue. If I have not covered any matters in of £3,189 per patient per year for every child or young this short debate, I will endeavour to write to her, so person under 19 who attends a paediatric diabetes that she has answers to all her questions. 67WH 11 SEPTEMBER 2012 UK and Welsh Governments 68WH (Finance) UK and Welsh Governments (Finance) the head. We have the two processes of the bilateral discussions between the Governments and the Silk commission. My understanding is that the commissioners 1.30 pm have some contact in terms of how those discussions Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): It is a pleasure to between the two Governments are proceeding, but surely speak under your chairmanship, Mr Leigh. I welcome it is very difficult for them to put together a comprehensive the new Minister at the Wales Office to his place. His package unless the cloak of secrecy surrounding the role recently has perforce been one surrounded by a intergovernmental discussions is lifted. deep silence. I consulted the online Hansard and apparently his last contribution was in the Christmas Adjournment Hywel Williams: My hon. Friend makes a very pertinent debate of 2010—some time ago. Many hon. Members, point. The question was asked of me in preparation for not least from Wales, will be looking forward to that this debate whether one set of discussions needed to silence being broken. I am glad of this early opportunity be concluded before the other set of discussions could to question him on a crucial issue for Wales and I am be concluded. Do we not need to wait until the questions determined to allow him plenty of time to answer. I about responsibility are decided before we decide what am sure that hon. Members who are here today and the financial settlement is? My hon. Friend makes a take an interest in the issue will understand that, as this very good point. What I am looking for in this debate is is a short debate, I will take only a few interventions. some answers from the Minister, who perhaps can enlighten us. My understanding is that, with the intergovernmental My purpose in applying for the debate could not be discussions, no communiqués are issued. Ministerial simpler. I want to know what is going on. I want to hear statements have lacked detail. Freedom of information evidence of progress towards fair funding for Wales. requests have been refused or severely curtailed. Written Neither I nor the people of Wales can wait until the questions have produced stonewalling answers. There is Chancellor of the Exchequer’s misguided policies are little information in the public domain and there is no conclusively proved to be a failure for funding for Wales schedule for reporting as there is with the Silk commission. to be reformed. This is not a back-burner issue. There is and has been for a very long time a pressing case for Therefore, as I said, my aim in today’s debate is reform. It would be worth hundreds of millions of simply to obtain some information on who is involved pounds to the people of Wales and would provide part in the meetings, what is happening, what progress they of the springboard—part of the power—that we need have made, when they will conclude and how they will to bring Wales out of this deepest of recessions. be reported. The debate is an opportunity for the Government and, indirectly, their interlocutor in Wales The previous Secretary of State for Wales set up a to report back to the Welsh people in their favourite twin-track approach to deal with developing constitutional forum—Parliament here in London—so here is an open issues. On the one hand, we have the Silk commission, goal for the new Minister. which has two parts, the first primarily considering taxation issues and the second examining the wider Let me set out the headings of the matters that I devolution settlement. A great deal of effort was put in would like the Minister to address. The primary aim of to ensure that the commission has cross-party support the discussions, as I understand them, is to consider the and cross-party membership. Participants are drawn conclusions reached by the Holtham commission about from the Tory party, the Liberal Democrats, the Labour the block funding grant for Wales—the so-called and party and Plaid Cymru. It also has independent members. now much-criticised Barnett formula. I say “now much- Plaid Cymru is represented by that fearsome Paxman criticised”, as the Barnett formula had no stauncher baiter, Dr Eurfyl ap Gwilym. To my mind, he should be defenders than members of the previous Administration, stirring things up in another place, but I will not pursue who repeatedly referred to it as that line of thought now. With the Silk commission, “a good deal for Wales”— meetings are advertised, communiqués are posted and that is, until they were no longer in government. Then it consultation takes place. According to its website, the was all awful. report on part I of its work will be out this autumn and The Holtham commission, as we well know, found the report on part II in 2013, although the former that the Barnett formula was “not fit for purpose”. Secretary of State announced that that might be delayed There was agreement with that in a variety of other until 2014. We shall see. reports issued at the same time from the House of On the other hand, there are bilateral discussions Lords, the House of Commons and the Calman between the Welsh and the UK Governments to discuss commission and in discourse between political parties financial matters. Participants in those discussions are and the various parts of Welsh civil society. That is drawn from the Tory party, the Liberal Democrats and because Barnett is unrelated to the relative needs of the Labour party, so not all parties in Wales are involved— each of the devolved Administrations. Instead, it depends Plaid Cymru is not involved. I well understand that they on the spending decisions made by individual Departments are Government-to-Government discussions. I am no in England, so the amount of money spent in Wales more paranoid than any other MP; this is not a case of depends on the amount of money spent in England. paranoia or lack of understanding on my part. The More than that, the formula is intended to converge point is that, unlike the Silk commission, those discussions with the English average, irrespective of whether that are simply not open to all and not transparent. helps the people of Wales. That was the initial intention at least—a converging formula. Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) The amount of money that we get is decided not (PC): I congratulate my hon. Friend on gaining this according to our needs, but according to the formula; debate and the Under-Secretary of State for Wales on and the gap between the amount of money that we need his appointment. My hon. Friend has hit the nail on and the amount of money available is growing. The 69WH UK and Welsh Governments 11 SEPTEMBER 2012 UK and Welsh Governments 70WH (Finance) (Finance) Holtham commission estimated, conservatively, that down has such powers, but not the national strand in there was a gap of about £400 million between the Wales. We, in Plaid Cymru, believe that significant amount of funding that Wales receives and its relative borrowing powers should be devolved to the Welsh needs. However, those figures are now several years out Government. Borrowing limits should be based on an of date, as well as being based on spending estimates assessment of sustainability and affordability—two rather than the final budget. More recent estimates principles that I am sure will find favour with the by our colleague, Dr Eurfyl ap Gwilym, suggest that Minister. We are not advocating a spending spree. The the difference in 2010-11 could have been as high as Welsh Government should be entitled to set an annual £680 million, not £400 million. borrowing limit for themselves, which they consider My worry, therefore, as far as the discussions are affordable. We also believe that the Welsh Government concerned, is that if we accept the much-touted suggestion should be free to issue bonds or obtain commercial of a Barnett floor to prevent further convergence, we funding, as well as use the services of the Treasury’s will lock ourselves into the existing inequality. The Debt Management Office. That would enable the Welsh Barnett floor might actually become a Barnett ceiling. Government to decide which borrowing mechanism The question for us today and for the people of Wales is best suited their requirements. What progress can the at what level that might be set. Would it be at 112% of Minister report? need, 113% or 114%, as Holtham suggested? The answers As part of the Holtham discussion on borrowing to those questions are crucial. powers, it was recommended that the Welsh Government Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): Members of have unfettered access to end-year flexibility funds—the all parties are concerned about the operation of the money left over at the end of the year. It was a matter of Barnett formula. I have always taken the view that we great disappointment to, I am sure, all Welsh MPs—well, cannot deal with the situation in Wales without dealing nearly all—that an unspent £386 million voted to the with the situation in Scotland, because there is a huge Welsh Government by Parliament was clawed back by overpayment to Scotland. Does the hon. Gentleman the new Government in 2010. A huge amount of money accept that the only way of resolving the issue is to deal disappeared down the M4, again. Previous end-year with Scotland and Wales at the same time? flexibility reserves were invested in projects such as the strategic capital investment framework. The money has Hywel Williams: I will give a plain answer to a plain been well used. By removing that £386 million of end-year question: the Barnett formula should be reformed and flexibility, the UK Government in effect removed a we should do whatever it takes to reform it. My concern, significant sum of money from the poorest part of the as a Welsh MP, is the effect on Wales, and the effect on British state. It would have been useful for job creation, Wales is very damaging. That is the point. That is why I keeping people in work and a host of priorities that all want answers from the Minister. Members share. Time is catching up with me, so I will press on. We There we are. I look to the Minister for answers. would also like the Minister to report on the housing There is a new Cabinet, and a chance for a new openness revenue account subsidy, which my hon. Friend the and new dialogue with the people of Wales, or possibly Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan not—let us see. Edwards) has brought up repeatedly. According to a freedom of information request, though they may not 1.44 pm realise it, council house tenants in Wales have donated more than £1 billion to the Treasury since devolution The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales began. This year, the estimate is that £73 million will be (Stephen Crabb): I thank the hon. Member for Arfon returned. There is no such scheme in Scotland or Northern (Hywel Williams) for his kind comments about my Ireland—it never existed—and the scheme in England, appointment. I am sorry, or perhaps glad, that he which had major changes made to it anyway about missed my rather embattled response to a debate on 10 years ago, has been scrapped. In answer to a written unemployment in north-east England when I stood in question, the former Secretary of State confirmed that for a Minister recently. The hon. Gentleman rightly it would be part of the bilateral discussions, so, I again referred to the near total silence in which I have been ask the Minister, what is happening or—to coin a working as a Government Whip over the past two years phrase—what’s occurring? or so. I pay tribute to him. He and I served together on The role of the Welsh Government and their borrowing the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs in the previous powers is the third issue on which I want to question the Parliament. I always appreciated the intelligent and Minister. That was supposed to be part of the bilateral sensitive approach that he brought to all the issues we discussions, and the Silk commission is examining it as looked at, which he has again demonstrated in the well. The Welsh Government have limited borrowing manner he has approached the topic today. powers. The right to borrow to invest would make a We have an opportunity before us to provide a significant difference. I know that what I am going to timely update to Members on the progress of the say will not find favour on that side of the Chamber: if intergovernmental talks on funding reform. In July last we were to follow Keynesian principles for public sector year, the Secretary of State for Wales informed the investment, when the private sector would not do so, House in a ministerial statement of the Government’s borrowing powers could be hugely significant for the plans to establish the Commission on Devolution in Welsh Government. They could make investment decisions Wales—now commonly known as the Silk commission. for themselves. It was established in October 2011, fulfilling a commitment Does it not seem odd to people outside this place that in our programme for government to establish a process the Welsh Government do not have borrowing powers, for the National Assembly similar to the Calman but local authorities do? The next strand of government commission. 71WH UK and Welsh Governments 11 SEPTEMBER 2012 UK and Welsh Governments 72WH (Finance) (Finance) [Stephen Crabb] situation has worsened—and we believe it has—that floor would end up becoming a Barnett ceiling. That As hon. Members from Wales know, the commission outcome would be disastrous. To be perfectly honest, is looking at the case for devolving fiscal powers to the given the record of the Finance Minister in the Welsh Assembly and the Welsh Government, to improve the Government, we are concerned that Treasury Ministers financial accountability of the devolved institutions in will be running rings round her. Wales. The Government will consider the commission’s recommendations carefully when it publishes its part 1 Stephen Crabb: Tempted though I might be to be report in, I hope, late autumn. drawn into discussing what might be in the final statement, The Secretary of State’s July statement also made I will not do so. On what the Holtham report said about clear the Government’s commitment to consider all the financial position of Wales, the hon. Gentleman aspects of the Holtham commission’s reports and to mentioned his party’s belief. There are a lot of beliefs continue discussions with the Welsh Government on about the position. Big assumptions are made in the Holtham’s funding reform proposals for Wales. The report about Wales’s funding situation. Not all of those talks will also cover the operation of the Welsh beliefs and assumptions are shared by the UK Government. Government’s existing borrowing powers. The aim of Over the past 12 months the two Governments have the intergovernmental talks has been to explore and test together been exploring the issues in detail. The hon. the conclusions reached in the Holtham report in respect Member for Arfon went into a little detail about the of Welsh funding, to look at what the trends in funding Barnett formula, and its weakness. I caution him about have been and are likely to be, and to consider the claiming that the current system always delivers an extent to which there has been convergence between the unfair outcome for Wales. The spending settlement for Welsh block grant and relative funding in England. The Wales in the 2010 spending review was fair in a difficult hon. Gentleman drew attention to the difficult issue of economic climate. It represented a 7.5% reduction in convergence, which has been at the heart of what the the Welsh Government’s resource budget—an average two Governments have been discussing. cut of less than 2% a year. We recognise that there are challenges in that, but it is significantly less than the 3% The talks have also explored previous studies carried a year cut that the Welsh Government had previously out on Welsh needs. The hon. Member for Carmarthen planned for. In addition, the Government have provided East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) talked about a almost an additional £500 million since the spending cloak of secrecy; there has been no cloak of secrecy review for the Welsh Government to use in any way they around the talks. They have been conducted on exactly want. the normal basis that one would expect intergovernmental talks to be conducted on. They have been going on for In our programme for Government we recognised about 12 months and have been conducted in a positive the concerns expressed by the Holtham commission, way. The two Governments have worked closely and but our priority was and is to stabilise the public collaboratively as the talks have progressed. As one finances. Plaid Cymru’s perspective may differ from the would expect, they have involved the Chief Secretary to Government’s, in not recognising the necessity of the the Treasury and the Secretary of State for Wales. UK fiscal framework, but that is the context in which Together, they have had a productive and positive dialogue we are operating. Reform of the Barnett formula cannot with Welsh Government Ministers, and, in particular, take place in the current environment. It should be the Welsh Minister for Finance. Those meetings between borne in mind that comprehensive reform, as my hon. Ministers have been supported by meetings between Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) officials. Officials from the Welsh Government have met so eloquently said, would have huge implications not on an almost monthly basis with officials from the just for Wales but for all parts of the United Kingdom. Wales Office to carry forward the discussions, analyse That is why the inter-governmental talks between the the evidence and determine the funding trends. UK and Welsh Governments have not looked at replacing the Barnett formula, or at the pros and cons of alternative I am pleased to tell the hon. Member for Arfon and systems. the House that the talks are now reaching a conclusion. I hope that hon. Members will appreciate that, although Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): Will the Minister explain the talks are in their final stages, I am not able today to something to me? The economic forecast given to us in give a detailed statement as to what the outcome will be. 2010 does not seem to be holding up. We seem to be in a I am confident that we will be in a position to make an no-growth situation. Is there therefore a case for revising announcement in the near future on the outcome. I the view of when the Barnett formula should be hope that the hon. Gentleman is made positive and reconsidered, given that we now face perhaps another optimistic by my confidence, and that he will recognise five years of double-dip recession? that the outcome will benefit Wales, and be good for Wales and the United Kingdom as a whole. Stephen Crabb: I have yet to see any economist forecasting five years of double-dip recession. I always enjoy listening Jonathan Edwards: I appreciate that the Minister to the hon. Lady, but given the zero progress that her does not want to disclose the outcome of the discussions. party’s Government made on the issues, I am not sure We understand that we are most likely to see the we should take guidance from her on this subject. introduction of a Barnett floor. My hon. Friend talked about that floor being based on the Holtham estimates, Hywel Williams: I do not wish to torture the Minister which go back four or five years. The key question we with Keynesian quotes; but Keynes did say: want answered is whether there has been any reassessment “When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, of those estimates in terms of coming to a conclusion sir?” on the Barnett floor. If there has not been, and the What do the Government do if the facts have changed? 73WH UK and Welsh Governments 11 SEPTEMBER 2012 UK and Welsh Governments 74WH (Finance) (Finance) Stephen Crabb: There are established processes in point about underspends. Generally it is not good to place, through the comprehensive spending review, for have many of them. Administrations should plan prudently looking at all those issues. I hope that the hon. Gentleman as well as spend prudently, and if they do that, and will take me at my word when I say there is a genuine carry out their spending plans efficiently, there should commitment among the new team in the Wales Office, not really be any case for large underspends at the and our colleagues in the Treasury, to work with Ministers end of the year. in the Welsh Government to explore those issues in I hope that I have dealt with all the points that the depth, and ensure that Wales gets the fairest possible hon. Gentlemen raised. I look forward to hearing the outcome. outcome of the talks. The hon. Member for Arfon raised some other financial matters. Progress has been made on the issue of the Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): I welcome the Minister housing revenue account, about which the hon. Member to his position—to both of them, in fact. He is a for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr spoke so powerfully remarkable person, as he is able to spend so much time in, I think, November 2010. The Government are working both as a senior Whip and a Wales Office Minister. with the Welsh Government on how the HRA in Wales I want to ask him about the future, and how he sees can be abolished, in line with the approach taken in the work of the Silk commission progressing to part II. England. We agree that any reform of the HRA subsidy Will he talk about the future constitutional relationships? system would need to be fiscally neutral, as it was in Will there be dialogue with the commission on the West England. I know that Plaid Cymru Members have Lothian question, for example? strong feelings about the current system, but Ministers here and in Cardiff agree that it is not unfair to Wales. Stephen Crabb: Part II of the Silk commission goes However, they are considering ways to improve it. way beyond the subject that we are debating, as the hon. Discussions are continuing, and we are currently awaiting Gentleman knows. It looks at wider devolution in Wales, clarification from the Welsh Government to proposals and the potential for devolving other powers. Part I, that they made in August. I emphasise, again, that we which has more of a bearing on what we are discussing, are operating within the framework of the UK fiscal looks at potential fiscal devolution; so, tempted again system, and need to bear in mind the consequences to as I might be, I am not going down that path. other parts of the system of change affecting Wales. Hon. Members should be aware that the former Wayne David: We have got plenty of time. system of end year flexibility has now been replaced with a new budget exchange system. In designing that Stephen Crabb: I know we have plenty of time, but I system, the Government worked closely with the Welsh am still not going to talk about that issue when we are Government and have implemented a system that provides debating funding issues. increased flexibility for the devolved Administrations to Question put and agreed to. manage their own underspends. The Welsh Government have signed up to that approach, as indeed have the 1.56 pm other devolved Administrations. I want to make one Sitting adjourned.

5WS Written Ministerial Statements11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 6WS

This followed the EU announcement in February Written Ministerial 2012, where 51 people and 20 companies were removed from the list of those subject to an EU visa ban and Statements asset freeze on the grounds that they were no longer involved in human rights abuses and in recognition of Tuesday 11 September 2012 progress made so far in Zimbabwe and regionally in preparation for credible and peaceful elections in Zimbabwe. In February 2011, thirty-five people were removed from TREASURY the list following significant progress in addressing the economic crisis in Zimbabwe and improving the delivery Small Charitable Donations Bill of social services. There has been further progress in the last six months The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Sajid Javid): in Zimbabwe, including on the drafting of a new constitution; As a result of the announcement by the Chancellor at legislative progress such as the Electoral Amendment the 2011 Budget HMRC is developing a new online Bill and Human Rights Commission Bill being passed; system for charities to claim gift aid, which is planned to and the Southern African Development Community be introduced in April 2013. Charities will use the same (SADC) under the leadership of President Zuma reiterating forms, procedures and IT to claim under the gift aid their commitment to facilitate agreement among the small donations scheme as for gift aid. The advance parties in Zimbabwe on creating an environment conducive from the Contingencies Fund will enable HMRC’s IT to the holding of free and fair elections. There have been provider to begin work on developing the elements of continuing calls for the EU’s restrictive measures to be the system that are unique to the new scheme. Starting suspended in order to further support the reform process the work early gives the IT provider sufficient lead-in including from all parties to the inclusive Government, time to have the IT ready for the start of the gift aid SADC and the UN High Commissioner for Human small donations scheme in April 2013. Rights. If the work on the new scheme were to be delayed Our aim is clear; we want to support the process until after Royal Assent then HMRC would incur increased towards free and fair elections in Zimbabwe. A peaceful costs of around £1.3 million. This is because, in order to and credible constitutional referendum would represent avoid delaying the introduction of gift aid online, the IT an important step along that path and it is right that the system would need to be tested twice; first to test the EU responds appropriately. The proposed move is not IT that will deliver gift aid online and later to test the IT an endorsement of the content of the draft constitution system from scratch, after the incorporation of the itself but will demonstrate to reformers across the political elements that are unique to the new scheme. Testing is a spectrum that the EU is serious about responding to real necessarily time-consuming and expensive process. There progress on the ground and reflects our confidence in would be additional costs as a result of the delay because the facilitation process being undertaken by President the IT to support the new scheme would not be implemented Zuma and the leaders of SADC. at the same time as gift aid online. It also puts the onus on Zimbabwe to live up to their HMRC will absorb the capital and resource costs of commitments. The constitution making process has been developing the IT, subject to the passage of the Small and continues to be, much delayed and the way forward Charitable Donations Bill. is uncertain. The international community is monitoring Advance funding will allow for the development of developments closely. We will ensure there is a robust the IT required to enable charities to make claims under review process following any EU move on measures and the gift aid small donations scheme and for HMRC to that the EU has the ability to respond appropriately make repayments and generally administer the scheme. should the situation deteriorate. Parliamentary approval of £250,000 for this new service Britain remains a committed friend to the people of will need to be included in the estimates ambit for Her Zimbabwe. UK aid to Zimbabwe in the 2011-12 financial Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. Pending that approval, year was £89 million—our largest ever programme. The urgent expenditure estimated at £ 150,000 will be met by funds are being delivered through multilateral partners repayable cash advances from the Contingencies Fund. and civil society partners and the EU decision on appropriate measures has no impact on the UK aid programme. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Between 2011 and 2015 UK aid to Zimbabwe will provide almost 1 million more people with clean water, give Zimbabwe more than 700,000 women access to family planning, create 125,000 new jobs and help 80,000 children complete The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign primary education. and Commonwealth Affairs (Mark Simmonds): Following discussions between the UK and its EU partners, the EU announced on 23 July its decision to suspend with TRANSPORT immediate effect the restrictions on appropriate measures covering EU development assistance and indicated that it would respond to a peaceful and credible constitutional Fuel Quality Directive Transposition referendum in Zimbabwe with a suspension of the majority of EU restrictive measures on all but a small core of individuals around President Mugabe, particularly those The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport who will most directly influence the potential of violence (Norman Baker): Today I am publishing our response to in the next election. the comments received in the consultation on our proposals 7WS Written Ministerial Statements11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 8WS to implement articles 7a to 7e of the EU fuel quality This approach allows us to transpose the fuel quality directive (directive 98/70/EC as amended by directive directive at the minimum cost to UK business. 2009/30/EC). The directive requires suppliers to reduce I would like to thank all those who took the time to the lifecycle greenhouse gas intensity of many transport respond to the consultation. fuels. The response sets out our decision to introduce new secondary legislation to transpose requirements of the fuel quality directive, including new annual reporting WORK AND PENSIONS requirements for fossil fuels and biofuels. The document also details our commitment to amend Cold Weather Payments Scheme the Renewable Transport Fuel Obligations Order 2007 (“RTFO Order 2007”) to include fuels used in non-road mobile machinery, a policy already announced to the House The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions on July 16 when the Department published a related (Steve Webb): I am pleased to announce that later today consultation response, Official Report, column 112WS. we intend to lay regulations to amend the cold weather An amendment made in December 2011 to the RTFO payment scheme. The changes detailed in these regulations Order 2007 means that only biofuels meeting minimum will come into force on 1 November this year, in time for sustainability criteria count towards renewable energy the beginning of the winter period. targets. Sustainable biofuels play an important role in Following advice from the Meteorological Office the our efforts to tackle climate change and reduce greenhouse amendments will introduce one new weather station, gas emissions from the transport sector. However, concerns Rostherne, to the scheme for winter 2012-13 and withdraw remain about the sustainability of some biofuels, especially the current station at Woodford. As a result of the around the issue of indirect land use change (“ILUC”) changes the postcodes that are currently linked to and we are pressing the European Commission and the withdrawn station will be reassigned to different other member states to produce a robust method to weather stations. address this issue. Pending that clarity we are taking a The new station has been chosen to maintain weather cautious approach to implementing the fuel quality station to postcode links that are at least as representative directive. as the current arrangement. The fuel quality directive introduces the requirement I am writing to each Member who made representations for many transport fuel suppliers to reduce the greenhouse about the administration of the scheme last winter to gas intensity of the fuels they supply by 6% in 2020. We make them aware of the advice from the Meteorological will not impose on suppliers a greenhouse gas reduction Office. obligation at this point. Instead, we will place an ongoing Cold weather payments are separate from, and in legal duty on the Secretary of State to propose any addition to, winter fuel payments. further measures necessary to ensure delivery of the requirements of the fuel quality directive. We will rely The amendments resulted from the Department’s annual on the amended RTFOOrder 2007 to deliver the greenhouse review of the cold weather payments scheme. The review gas savings necessary under the fuel quality directive for drew on expert advice from the Meteorological Office the period up to 2014. We will also put in place a and took account of representations from benefit claimants requirement for fuel suppliers to report on the greenhouse and Members of Parliament. gas intensity of both the biofuel and fossil fuels they For winter 2012-13 the cold weather payment rate will supply for use in land-based transport and for the associated continue to be £25 for each seven day period of very uses listed in the directive. cold weather. 121W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 122W

An announcement about the way forward will be Written Answers to made in due course once responses have been considered. Questions Paul Blomfield: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps he plans to take to deal with attacks on guide and other Tuesday 11 September 2012 assistance dogs. [120243]

Mr Heath: The Government recently completed a consultation on a package of proposals to tackle ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS irresponsible ownership of dogs. The consultation attracted over 27,000 responses. We are currently analysing the Agriculture: Subsidies responses before making any announcements about a way forward. The existing laws on dangerous dogs and animal welfare already provide protection for attacks Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State on guide dogs. However, I will give careful consideration for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what to the matter. discussions he has had with the European Commission on dates used to calculate future entitlements to direct Floods: Insurance payments as part of Common Agricultural Policy reform. [120099] Andrew Percy: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Heath: My predecessor has met with members of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what discussions the Commission on a number of occasions to discuss he has had with the Association of British Insurers on this and other areas of concern to the Government, provision of affordable and adequate flood insurance. most recently at the Royal Welsh Agricultural show. [120569] DEFRA officials are involved in regular working group discussions where all aspects of the future allocation of Richard Benyon: The Secretary of State and I recently entitlements are being considered. met representatives from the insurance industry regarding the future availability and affordability of home insurance Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State in flood risk areas. for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment Discussions with the industry continue and further he has made of the likely effect on (a) the level of land announcements will be made in due course. banking and (b) access to agricultural land by new entrants and tenant farmers of implementing proposed Nature Conservation Common Agricultural Policy reforms that the allocation of entitlements to direct payments should be based on a Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for date in the future. [120100] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what programmes to protect and encourage the breeding of endangered Mr Heath: There is the potential for distortions to species the Government sponsors. [119720] arise whenever future dates are used as part of qualifying criteria. This is one of the reasons why we are seeking Richard Benyon: The Species Recovery Programme, the option to rollover existing entitlements. We also operated by Natural England, provides direct support consider that there may be specific circumstances where for the most threatened species of animals, plants and new entrants might be disadvantaged by the Commission’s fungi in England. This includes targeted action through proposals, particularly in the first year of the scheme status assessments, research to identify causes of decline, and we are working to ensure that member states and research to identify appropriate means of recovery, the regions have the flexibility to address them. testing of recovery solutions and re-introductions. The Environment Agency makes a significant Dangerous Dogs contribution across England and Wales to the protection of endangered aquatic species (including plants, animals, Paul Blomfield: To ask the Secretary of State for birds and fish) both through its regulatory role and its Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) whether he positive work in support of environmental improvement. plans to bring forward legislative proposals to deal Current breeding projects include the white-clawed crayfish, with irresponsible dog ownership in the proposed draft freshwater pearl mussel and vendace (a freshwater white bill on antisocial behaviour; [120242] fish). (2) with reference to Putting victims first: more Efforts to conserve endangered fish species and to effective responses to anti-social behaviour, when he encourage their breeding typically focus on management expects to announce his plans for dealing with measures targeted at wild fish populations and Government irresponsible dog ownership. [120278] supports a range of activities, for example, prohibitions on exploitation, fishery technical measures and habitat Mr Heath: The Home Office have proposed changes improvement schemes. Species subject to such measures to the existing antisocial behaviour measures and these to allow stocks to rebuild include the angel shark and proposals include such behaviour where it involves dogs. European eel. DEFRA’s own consultation on proposals to tackle The UK Government also provides support through irresponsible ownership of dogs closed on 15 June. We a number of mechanisms for protecting biodiversity are currently analysing over 27,000 responses. overseas—including through the Darwin Initiative, which 123W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 124W has been funding projects around the world for the last It is for the companies themselves to assess and 20 years. Some projects aim to improve the conservation review the effectiveness of their schemes, in line with the status of endangered species through breeding programmes Government guidance, which was issued in 2010. There or re-introductions. For example, a current project that are currently no plans to review the guidance, but it will is re-introducing endangered frogs (called mountain be reviewed in due course as a matter of policy evaluation. chickens) in Montserrat. The Darwin Initiative also supports several projects which are involved in the captive breeding of vultures in India/South Asia. In SCOTLAND addition, the Government contributes to various initiatives and organisations that support a range of endangered Cabinet Growth Implementation Committee species, which are assessed on a case by case basis, such as the Global Tiger Initiative, projects associated with Margaret Curran: To ask the Secretary of State for the Agreement on the Conservation of Albatrosses and Scotland whether he expects to be a member of the Petrels, and the Great Apes Survival Partnership. DEFRA’s proposed Cabinet Growth Implementation Committee. biodiversity research programme has a number of projects [120466] addressing threats to biodiversity in the UK overseas territories. This includes work to improve breeding success Michael Moore: Membership of the Cabinet Growth of the critically endangered St Helena wirebird. Implementation Committee has not yet been confirmed. The Royal Botanic Garden Kew’s UK Overseas The Cabinet Office will shortly issue a new list of Territories Programme has received funding from DEFRA, Cabinet Committee membership, which will incorporate Darwin and the Overseas Territories Environment changes following the reshuffle Programme over the last 10 years to help conserve the Entry Clearances: Overseas Students unique plants of the UK overseas territories, through seed collection, cultivation at Kew, capacity building in Margaret Curran: To ask the Secretary of State for territories, helping establish native species nurseries in Scotland what discussions he has had with (a) territories and ultimately restoring habitats and Universities Scotland and (b) NUS Scotland on the re-introducing threatened species back into the wild. effect of the Government’s immigration reforms on DEFRA also supports the Millennium Seed Bank Scottish universities. [120465] Partnership led by the Royal. Botanic Gardens, Kew and involving about 50 countries aiming to conserve Michael Moore: I meet with members of the higher 75,000 plant species by 2020. education sector in Scotland on a regular basis to discuss a range of issues including immigration reform. Water Charges: Voluntary Organisations Food

Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for Margaret Curran: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs with reference to Scotland what assessment he has made of the trend in paragraph 4.2 of his Department’s guidance to water the number of people using food banks in Scotland; and sewerage undertakers in relation to the concessionary and if he will make a statement. [119930] scheme for community groups for surface water drainage Michael Moore: These are challenging times economically charges, what assessment he has made of the effect of but we are committed to supporting people with appropriate the concessionary scheme for community groups where help to enable them to access employment and to water and sewerage undertakers have not identified re-balancing the economy to create sustainable jobs. additional classes of community groups; which water DWP’s Work programme and Get Britain Working and sewerage undertakers have identified additional initiatives are intended to provide people with the necessary classes of charities in community group concessionary skills and experience to help them into long-term jobs schemes for surface water drainage to those listed; and that will provide them with security and stability. whether he plans to review the scheme. [119640]

Richard Benyon: The Government’s guidance provides criteria to help, undertakers determine which community NORTHERN IRELAND groups should benefit from concessionary schemes for surface water drainage. It states which groups the Corporation Tax Government expects undertakers will want to include but makes clear that this is not an exhaustive list. The Vernon Coaker: To ask the Secretary of State for guidance also proposes that undertakers should take Northern Ireland what recent discussions her Department account of the criteria. It requires undertakers to carry has had with HM Treasury and the Northern Ireland out an Impact Assessment and bring forward any scheme Executive on corporation tax; and if she will make a in consultation with customers. Therefore, the decision statement. [120186] of which groups to include in a scheme is one for the Mrs Villiers: Officials have continued work on the undertaker, in consultation with their customers. issues surrounding the potential devolution of powers Two companies (United Utilities and Northumbrian to vary the corporation tax rate to the Northern Ireland Water) have brought forward concessionary schemes Assembly since the Joint Ministerial Working Group on for charging for surface water drainage within the guidelines Rebalancing the Northern Ireland Economy last met in set out by the Government. Neither undertaker has June. I intend to have discussions with ministerial colleagues identified additional categories of community groups from HM Treasury and the Northern Ireland Executive that were not specified in the guidance. in the coming weeks. 125W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 126W

National Crime Agency (NCA) in May 2012. CEOP will be one of the NCA’s four operational Commands, reflecting the importance Mark Durkan: To ask the Secretary of State for of child protection within the agency’s work. Northern Ireland if she will undertake a comparative Peter Davies will carry out this role in addition to his assessment of the compatibility of her plans for the current responsibilities as chief executive of the CEOP National Crime Agency (NCA) and provisions for the Centre. As director designate, Mr Davies will oversee NCA contained in the Crime and Courts Bill with the smooth transition of CEOP into the NCA, as an the principles and arrangements for accountable integral part of the wider work to establish the agency. policing in Northern Ireland resulting from the Belfast A transition group is in place to ensure performance Agreement, the Patten Report and other agreements. of CEOP is maintained and enhanced before the NCA [120550] becomes fully operational by the end of 2013, subject to the passage of legislation. Mrs Villiers: My Department has worked closely with the Home Office and Northern Ireland Department Crime of Justice to ensure that the principles of the Belfast Agreement and other agreements are reflected in the Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for the Crime and Courts Bill. The proposed arrangements Home Department what research her Department has achieve this by maintaining the primacy of the Chief (a) commissioned and (b) assessed on the effect of Constable for policing in Northern Ireland. They also fantasising on levels of (i) crime and (ii) recidivism. provide for local accountability, through the Police [120088] Ombudsman for Northern Ireland and a relationship with the Northern Ireland Policing Board. Mr Jeremy Browne [holding answer 7 September 2012]: The Home Office has not commissioned or assessed any Mark Durkan: To ask the Secretary of State for research on the effect of fantasising on levels of crime Northern Ireland if she will specify pursuant to the and recidivism. contribution of the Minister of State of 18 June 2012, Official Report, HL column 1609, on the Crime and Crime Prevention Courts Bill (Lords), what the mix of reserved and devolved activity to be undertaken by the National Crime Agency in Northern Ireland will include. Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for [120570] the Home Department what discussions she has had with representatives of Twitter and other social media Mrs Villiers: Areas of devolved responsibility in which companies about crime prevention; and if she will the National Crime Agency would undertake activity, make a statement. [119568] in partnership with PSNI, include child exploitation, organised crime and cyber crime. The National Crime Mr Jeremy Browne [holding answer 6 September 2012]: Agency will also work on reserved matters, for example The Secretary of State for the Home Department, the money laundering, and other matters, such as human right hon. Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), met trafficking, some elements of which are excepted. with representatives from Twitter following the August 2011 disorder. The Government continues to work closely with representatives from social media, industry and the voluntary sector at the quarterly Board meetings for HOME DEPARTMENT the UK Council on Child Internet Safety to help protect children online. Acid Attacks Crime: Betting Shops Paul Blomfield: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many incidents of acid attacks Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for were recorded in the last 12 months for which figures the Home Department what estimate she has made of are available; and how many such incidents led to the number of (a) assaults, (b) incidences of criminal prosecutions. [118865] damage, (c) robberies and (d) other offences committed in betting shops in the latest period for which figures are Mr Jeremy Browne: The information requested is not available. [119368] available from the police recorded crime statistics collected by the Home Office. The data series does not hold Mr Jeremy Browne: The information requested is not information on acid attacks. available from the police recorded crime statistics. The Home Office are unable to provide, from centrally held Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre records, information on offences committed in betting shops. Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when she expects the Child Exploitation Crime: Birmingham and Online Protection Centre Child Protection Command to be appointed. [118824] Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many (a) car thefts, Mr Jeremy Browne: Peter Davies was appointed director (b) burglaries and (c) violent crimes have been designate of the Child Exploitation and Online Protection reported in Birmingham in each year since 2007. (CEOP) Command for the National Crime Agency [119271] 127W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 128W

Mr Jeremy Browne [holding answer 7 September 2012]: Female Genital Mutilation The available information relates to car thefts, burglary and violent crime offences recorded by the police in Mark Pritchard: To ask the Secretary of State for the Birmingham and is given in the following table. Home Department how many people have been Number of offences recorded by the police in Birmingham for selected investigated for carrying out female genital mutilation offences, financial year since 2006-07 to date. [118851] Theft or unauthorised Violence Financial taking of motor against the Mr Jeremy Browne: Information on the number of Year vehicle Burglary person people investigated for carrying out female genital mutilation 2006-07 5,262 14,568 26,280 (FGM) is not held centrally. 2007-08 4,829 13,558 23,666 2008-09 4,169 12,313 21,767 Offences Against Children: Internet 2009-10 3,376 11,766 21,647 2010-11 3,302 12,654 18,390 Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for 2011-12 2,774 10,937 15,786 the Home Department what steps she is taking in response to reports of the use of Twitter by paedophiles; and if she will make a statement. [119567] Domestic Violence Mr Jeremy Browne [holding answer 6 September 2012]: Social media providers still have more to do to make Andrew Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for the their services safer environments for children, but all of Home Department what steps her Department is the major players are engaged with Governments at UK taking to reduce levels of domestic violence; and what and/or European level and have agreed to adhere to the assistance is offered to victims of domestic violence. EU Safer Social Networking Guidelines. Twitter [119522] unfortunately have not taken part in these discussions despite being encouraged to do so by UK Government Mr Jeremy Browne: The Government’s approach to officials earlier this year. We would urge Twitter to tackling domestic violence is set out in our updated Call rethink their stance. to End Violence Against Women and Girls action plan Government is working with the industry through published on 8 March 2012. Key initiatives include: the UK Council for Child Internet Safety to agree and provision of £3.3 million per year to fund Multi-Agency Risk put in place better measures to improve children’s online Assessment Conference co-ordinators and Independent Domestic safety. Violence Adviser posts until 2015; provision of £860,000 a year for national helplines to support Prostitution the victims of domestic violence; requiring that multi-agency reviews happen after every domestic homicide, and; Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many people have been (a) arrested piloting a Domestic Violence Disclosure Scheme in four police force areas which will test a process for enabling the police to on suspicion of committing and (b) subsequently charged disclose information about previous violent offending by a new with offences relating to prostitution by age, gender and or existing partner. region in each of the last five years. [118785]

Mr Jeremy Browne: The information requested is not Drugs collected centrally by the Home Office.

Mike Wood: To ask the Secretary of State for the Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many sex worker outreach Home Department (1) pursuant to the answer of centres there are in England and Wales. [118854] 11 July 2012, Official Report, column 224W, on drugs: crime, when her Department plans to update its Mr Jeremy Browne: This information is not held estimate of the number of acquisitive crimes centrally. committed that are related to the consumption of illegal drugs; [120479] Mike Wood: To ask the Secretary of State for the (2) pursuant to the answer of 17 July 2012, Official Home Department how many sex workers were Report, column 654W, on drugs: misuse, when her arrested in the Metropolitan police area in 2011. Department plans to update its estimate of the size of [118857] the illicit drug market in the UK. [120480] Mr Jeremy Browne: The information requested is not Mr Jeremy Browne: The Home Office is currently collected centrally by the Home Office. working to update its estimate of the social and economic cost of organised crime. This will include an update of Prostitution: Court Orders the estimated size of the illicit drug market in the UK and the estimated proportion of acquisitive crimes Mike Wood: To ask the Secretary of State for the committed in relation to the consumption of illegal Home Department who is responsible for supervising drugs. people sentenced to an engagement and support order This work is expected to be completed in the autumn under the Policing and Crime Act 2009; and what of 2012. training is provided to them. [118853] 129W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 130W

Mr Jeremy Browne: The Policing and Crime Act 2009 Third Sector took steps to improve the safety and support available for individuals involved within prostitution through the Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for the introduction of section 17, Engagement and Support Home Department what steps her Department has Orders. This legislation provides the courts with an taken to implement the recommendations of the alternative to fining those convicted of loitering or National Audit Office’s report, Central Government’s soliciting and instead requires attendance at meetings implementation of the national Compact. [120562] with a court appointed supervisor who has been nominated by local agencies. Mr Jeremy Browne: We have developed, in consultation The Home Office has issued guidance on ‘Engagement with the National Council for Voluntary Organisations and Support Orders’. Any training is a matter for the (NCVO) and Compact Voice, an action plan addressing local projects. the recommendations in the NAO report. This action plan was agreed with voluntary sector representatives in Sexual Offences: Armed Forces April and implementation is now under way.

Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many cases of (a) rape and (b) sexual assault were reported to civilian police by TRANSPORT members of the armed forces in each of the last three years; and if she will make a statement. [118988] Biofuels

Mr Jeremy Browne: The information requested is not Mr Spellar: To ask the Secretary of State for available from the police recorded crime statistics collected Transport what his policy is on the use of biofuels by the Home Office. The data series does not hold derived from corn; and if he will make a statement. information on offences reported by members of the [120105] armed forces. Norman Baker: Biofuels supplied in the UK, as reported Stalking under the Renewable Transport Fuel Obligation (RTFO), are made from a number of different feedstocks including agricultural crops such as corn, wastes, residues, ligno- Mr Buckland: To ask the Secretary of State for the cellulosic and non-food cellulosic materials. Home Department what support she plans to provide to victims of stalking after the implementation of new Our policy is that the supply of biofuels in the UK legislation in this area. [120533] has a role to play in reducing carbon emissions and encouraging economic growth, but biofuels must be genuinely sustainable. Amendments made to the RTFO Mr Jeremy Browne: The Government is working with in December 2011 to transpose the Renewable Energy the Association of Chief Police Officers, the Crown Directive ensure only biofuels meeting mandatory Prosecution Service and Her Majesty’s Courts and sustainability criteria benefit from incentives under the Tribunals Service, to provide guidance and training to RTFO. Those criteria include that biofuels, with some better equip agencies so that they can support victims exceptions, must deliver greenhouse gas savings of at of stalking. We continue to fund the National Stalking least 35 per cent when compared to fossil fuels and that Helpline which provides a valuable service to victims. biofuels must not be sourced from areas of high biodiversity, or from high carbon soils (eg rainforests or wetlands). Mr Buckland: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what plans she has to improve communications between her Department and the Chesham Department of Health in respect of the psychological effects of stalking on victims. [120534] Mrs Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many times (a) he and (b) each Mr Jeremy Browne: The Home Office continues to member of his ministerial team have visited Chesham work with a range of partners, including the Department and Amersham in an official capacity in the last three of Health, to ensure that the wider effects of stalking on years; and what the purpose was of each such visit. victims are considered. [120521]

Mr Buckland: To ask the Secretary of State for the Norman Baker: Since taking office, the Secretary of Home Department whether she plans to enable police State has not visited Chesham and Amersham in an to search the property of individuals arrested for official capacity, and neither have I nor any members of suspected stalking, to assist evidence gathering. the ministerial team in the last three years. [120535] High Speed 2 Railway Line Mr Jeremy Browne: The Government wants perpetrators of stalking and harassment to be fully investigated and Mrs Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for prosecuted. The new legislation on stalking provides the Transport what meetings have been held by Ministers police with a new power of entry and search to help in his Department with potential investors in the High secure the evidence needed to bring perpetrators of Speed 2 project; and on what dates those meetings took stalking offences to justice. place. [120516] 131W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 132W

Mr Simon Burns: Since taking up my post, neither I As set out in the electricity market reform (EMR) nor my Ministers have had any meeting with potential policy overview: investors in High Speed 2. http://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/11/policy-legislation/emr/ 5349-electricity-market-reform-policy-overview.pdf Motor Vehicles: Registration published alongside the draft Energy Bill in May, EMR provides the process and mechanisms to enable us to Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for make a long-term transition to a market where low Transport pursuant to the answer of 5 September 2012, carbon generators compete fairly under a robust and Official Report, column 339W, on motor vehicles: stable carbon price. registration, if he will make it his policy to commission Further detail on the EMR package, including the an estimate of the number of unregistered foreign contracts for difference feed-in tariff and the capacity vehicles in the UK. [120446] mechanism, will be set out later this year. Stephen Hammond: The Department would not make it policy to commission an estimate of the number of Energy: Conservation foreign vehicles in the UK. This is because there is no central database that records foreign registered vehicles, Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and so any estimates we could produce would be extremely and Climate Change if he will ensure that the inaccurate because there are no reliable tracking Government’s proposed Energy Bill includes provision technologies. for a strategy to reduce energy demand. [119014] I refer to my answer of 5 September 2012, Official Report, column 340W. Mr Hayes: Reducing energy demand is a Government priority.Energy efficiency is key to this and the Government Motorcycles: Driving Tests plans to publish a national energy efficiency strategy by the end of the year. Steve Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for As part of this strategy the Electricity Demand Reduction Transport (1) when he expects to conclude his trials of project is looking specifically at whether additional changes to module one of the motorcycle practical test; measures are required to reduce electricity demand. The [120118] project’s initial assessment suggests significant further (2) when he expects to begin consulting on changes potential may exist in this area, and my Department to module one of the motorcycle practical test. [120119] will launch a consultation on policy approaches to unlock this potential later this year. Stephen Hammond: The trials are expected to conclude in December 2012. There will be a full public consultation, Energy: Fees and Charges on any proposals for changing the current motorcycle test, in spring 2013. Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what estimate his Road Traffic Control Department has made of the number of households that have been charged termination fees by their energy Jonathan Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for supplier in respect of terminating a domestic supply Transport what the outcomes were of the consultation contract in each of the last five years; and what the on the placing of notices of traffic orders by local (a) average and (b) total amount paid was in each authorities in local newspapers; and if he will make a such year. [120238] statement. [120373] Mr Hayes: DECC does not hold the information Norman Baker: We have had a large response to this requested. consultation and are currently analysing the replies The setting of tariffs, including any termination fees from this public consultation, and I will announce the associated with fixed-price deals, is a commercial matter outcome and way forward later this year. for the companies concerned. Termination fees should reflect charges incurred by a supplier when a consumer decides to break away from the fixed-deal before the end of the offer. Consumers with a fixed-price deal will ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE not have to a pay a termination fee if the reason to Energy Bill break away is due to a price increase and they notify the supplier of their intention to switch before the day the price change takes place. Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change if he will take steps to ensure that Energy: Meters all market support mechanisms included in the Government’s proposed Energy Bill are transitional. [119015] Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (1) what estimate he has Mr Hayes: The electricity market reforms set out in made of the average annual cost to a domestic the draft Energy Bill are being developed to be robust to consumer of a smart meter; [118822] a range of future scenarios, such as developments in (2) what estimate he has made of the average annual technology; future Government objectives; and changes rental charge for a smart meter installed in a domestic in prices and demand. setting. [118843] 133W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 134W

Mr Hayes: Costs arising from the installation and EU Emissions Trading Scheme: Aviation operation of smart meters will fall to energy suppliers. Energy suppliers will also benefit from operational cost Dame Joan Ruddock: To ask the Secretary of State savings. It is expected that energy prices charged to for Energy and Climate Change how much money consumers by suppliers will reflect both costs incurred auctioning allowances for the aviation sector within the and the benefit of savings. In the early years of the EU ETS raised in the latest period for which figures are roll-out, as suppliers are responsible for the set-up costs available. [120622] to establish the smart metering system, we expect that suppliers will pass through a net cost to consumers. The Gregory Barker: The auctioning of aviation allowances impact assessment, published in April 2012, estimates under the EU Emissions Trading System has not yet that the bill increase will be most pronounced in 2015, commenced in the UK or anywhere in Europe. The when it is expected that the roll-out will increase the Government plan to hold the first UK auctions of these average annual bill by £7 per household. As the roll-out allowances later this year. progresses, suppliers are expected to realise net savings. Renewable Energy: Feed-in Tariffs Overall, considering both costs and cost savings to energy suppliers and energy savings by consumers, we Dr Whitehead: To ask the Secretary of State for expect the roll-out to reduce the average, annual dual Energy and Climate Change when state aid clearance fuel bill by £25 by 2020, and by £40 in 2030. for (a) contracts for difference and (b) investment instruments is anticipated; and how this will fit with the Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for timetable for the Energy Bill 2012 and subsequent Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made secondary legislation. [119556] of the average annual energy saving from installing a smart meter in (a) an average domestic setting, (b) a Mr Hayes: I refer the hon. Member to the answer domestic setting with energy bills of £400 per annum I gave him on 10 September 2012, Official Report, and (c) a domestic setting with energy bills of £500 per column 63W. annum. [118823] Solar Power

Mr Hayes: In April 2012 DECC published an updated Glyn Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy impact assessment (IA) for the roll-out of smart meters and Climate Change whether he plans to change the to domestic customers. There is a growing evidence level of subsidy for solar photovoltaics in the next two base on the potential energy savings that are achievable years. [120605] from smart metering, and the IA assumptions fall at the Gregory Barker: DECC issued a consultation document lower end of the range of savings that have been observed on 7 September inviting comments on proposed changes in recent trials. Our IA does not break down our to the level of support for solar photovoltaic (PV) estimates of reductions in energy consumption between installations under the renewables obligation. The proposals households with energy bills of £400 and households apply to new generation or additional capacity accredited with bills of £500 per annum. However, in the average on or after 1 April 2013. The consultation closes on domestic setting the IA estimates that customers will 19 October and the Government intends to publish its reduce electricity consumption by 2.8% and gas decision by the end of November. A copy of the consumption by 2%. Gas pre-payment customers are consultation proposals are available on DECC’s website expected to reduce their energy consumption by 0.5%. at the following location: http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/consultations/ Energy: Scotland ro_solarpv/ro_solarpv.aspx Solar PV generation is also supported under the Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for feed-in tariff scheme. In July the Government announced Energy and Climate Change what representations his a new policy of degression which adjusts the level of Department has received from Scottish Executive support for this technology in line with falling costs of (a) Ministers and (b) officials on energy prices and installation. Further details can be found in the Government the big six since May 2007; and if he will place in the Response to the consultation on the comprehensive Library copies of all such representations. [120432] review of the feed-in tariff scheme phase 2A, on solar PV cost control, available at: Mr Hayes: DECC Ministers and officials receive a http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/consultations/ number of representations from other Government fits_rev_ph2a/fits_rev_ph2a.aspx Departments and the devolved Administrations, including the Scottish Executive, on a range of issues. Following Cabinet Office guidelines we do not publish details of CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT any such discussions or meetings. Broadband: Rural Areas Quarterly lists of DECC Ministers’ meetings that involve outside interested parties are published on the Andrew Percy: To ask the Secretary of State for DECC website, available at: Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what assessment she has made of the likely economic effect of the http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/accesstoinform/ registers/ministermtgs/ministermtgs.aspx superfast broadband rollout in rural areas. [120567] I look forward to engaging with my ministerial Mr Vaizey: The impact of broadband on business counterparts in the devolved Administrations. growth is well documented in publicly available studies. Neither the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and 135W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 136W

Sport, my hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke Music: Young People (Maria Miller), nor I have made any new assessment of the impact of broadband roll-out on economic growth Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, or businesses in areas with poor broadband services. Olympics, Media and Sport what steps her Department is taking to increase the number of young people who Football play musical instruments. [120267]

Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Vaizey: The first National Plan for Music Education, Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what plans she launched on 25 November 2011, sets out Government’s has to bring forward legislative proposals to regulate priorities and support for music education. This plan the (a) debt and (b) ownership of professional includes the creation of a national network of music football clubs; whether she will discuss with Supporters education hubs to support high quality music teaching Direct any such proposals; and if she will make a funded through Arts Council England. The successful hubs were announced by Arts Council England in May. statement. [120381] A list of the successful hubs can be found on the following link: Hugh Robertson: It is for the football authorities to determine the best way of achieving the right changes in http://www.artscouncil.org.uk/media/uploads/xls/ MEHsuccessful_applicants_website.xls the game, and make improvements that will benefit the long-term interests of grassroots football, professional Olympic Games 2012: Swindon clubs and the national team. We are pleased that the football authorities have Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for responded positively to the challenges set by the Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what steps she has Government and the Culture, Media and Sport Select taken to raise participation in events connected with Committee, and have proposed improvements to the the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games in way the sport is governed. However, before any further Swindon. [120493] plans are agreed, including whether legislation is required, the Select Committee must conclude its deliberations Hugh Robertson: The Government and the London and provide a formal response to these proposals. Organising Committee of the Olympic and Paralympic Games (LOCOG) established the Nations and Regions Museums and Galleries: Yorkshire and the Humber Group to ensure UK-wide engagement and to maximise the legacy from London 2012. A sustained programme of proactive marketing and communications activities Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, has generated high levels of interest and engagement in Olympics, Media and Sport how many people visited London 2012-related activities across Wiltshire. each of the national museums in Yorkshire and the Humber in each year since 1997. [120428] This can be seen through 91% of Swindon schools (77) being registered for the Get Set network. Including Mr Vaizey: The following table provides visitor figures Lydiard Park Academy, which has worked with primary for the national museums in Yorkshire and the Humber schools across Swindon to identify over 100 school in each year since 1997. The National Media Museum ambassadors and leaders of London 2012 themed projects. and the National Railway Museum are both branches The academy ran an ’Olympic Roadshow’, visiting local of the Science Museum Group (formerly National Museum primary schools and giving over 2,000 pupils an opportunity of Science and Industry). to try Olympic and Paralympic sports such as rowing, archery, boccia and goalball. Also, four Wiltshire schools National were selected to form the Guard of Honour, lining the National Railway Royal route as the athletes made their way through the Olympic Media Museum, Armouries Park. 1 Museum York Leeds Total Around 15,000 people were in Swindon town centre 1997-98 298,901 420,079 349,000 1,067,980 to witness the Olympic Torch Relay visit on 23 May, 1998-99 83,613 434,566 296,000 814,179 with several more thousand in surrounding communities. 1999- 962,899 467,880 173,500 1,604,279 Huge crowds were present at Wharf Green where Didier 2000 Drogba ran with the flame. 2000-01 969,822 485,785 185,710 1,641,317 A series of business events ran in the years leading up 2001-02 823,309 587,862 280,867 1,692,038 to the games to raise awareness of contract opportunities 2002-03 768,161 767,299 302,527 1,837,987 and ways to bid. This included an event run in partnership 2003-04 723,273 740,217 277,105 1,740,595 with Coca Cola in June 2012 to highlight the opportunities 2004-05 658,991 885,406 301,809 1,846,206 to benefit from the Olympic Torch Relay’s visit to 2005-06 615,431 744,472 244,469 1,604,372 Wiltshire, and a business breakfast run by Wiltshire 2006-07 677,029 903,188 225,417 1,805,634 council in Salisbury on the morning of the Olympic 2007-08 737,857 824,106 267,624 1,829,587 Torch Relay’s visit to the town. Swindon-based Barnes 2008-09 672,951 782,430 264,973 1,720,354 Coaches Ltd and Thamesdown Transport Ltd were 2009-10 606,837 709,166 269,591 1,585,594 awarded contracts to supply buses and drivers for the 2010-11 497,522 630,396 273,824 1,401,742 Games Family Bus Services in London. 2011-12 482,790 717,274 215,135 1,415,199 The Live Site at Swindon’s Big Screen, in Wharf 1 The National Media Museum was partially closed in 1997-98 and Green, attracted thousands to watch the live action 1998-99 for refurbishment. (including 1,000 for the Olympic games closing ceremony) 137W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 138W and many went on to try out a wide range of sports—up separately from visual arts, and there was no spending to 200 people on each day took part in various free in this period by the Renaissance Museum Programme taster sessions, ranging from basketball to boccia and Funding in these areas. fencing to table tennis. The Big Screen also screened all In October 2011, ACE took over responsibility for the live Paralympics coverage and hosted two super supporting and developing libraries as part of the functions Saturdays, which showcased sporting opportunities for they inherited from the Museums, Libraries and Archives budding Paralympians. This included a new initiative Council (MLA). Figures are not held by ACE for called Run With Me, which encourages runners to form spending by the MLA on libraries in this period or this friendships with disabled athletes so they can take part area. They will however provide £6m in grants for the together in events ranging from 5 km races to half- arts funding for libraries between September 2012 and marathons. March 2015. Swindon council’s leisure services ran a host of special offers encouraging usage of their facilities and driving £ up participation. For example, more than 150 people Liverpool, Walton Merseyside signed up for an offer which gave access to a wide range of activities over a 20-day period for just £12. The Visual Arts Community Games Tour, which ran during the school Total funding since 2001 38,964 22,968,205 summer holidays for children, parents and grandparents to play exercise-related games, also engaged with around Music 200 people per week. Total funding since 2001 231,000 24,594,136 As part of the UK’s bid for the 2012 Olympic and Paralympic games we promised to inspire a new generation to play sport. Through Places, People, Play, £135 million This Department has policy responsibility for public has already been committed to support community libraries in England, but funding for local public services sport facilities and activity. Sports projects in Wiltshire including public libraries is paid as part of the Local have already been allocated funding through this Government Finance Settlement, administered by the programme. Also, over the next four years the new Department for Communities and Local Government Youth Sport Strategy will invest at least £1 billion of (DCLG). Public library services are delivered by 151 Lottery and Exchequer funding to help ensure young library authorities in England and the amount spent on people across England are regularly taking part in libraries in each authority is published in the Chartered sport. Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy (CIPFA) Annual Public Library Statistics, copies of which are available in the Libraries of both Houses. Public Expenditure: Merseyside Sport Sport England distributes Exchequer and lottery funding Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for to grassroots sport. Funding from 2001 can be found in Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how much her the following table. Department has spent on (a) sport, (b) music, (c) film, (d) museums and galleries and (d) libraries £ in (i) Liverpool, Walton constituency and Liverpool, (ii) Merseyside since May 2001; and what estimate her Grassroots sport Walton Merseyside Department has made of the level of such spending in each such category in each of the next three years. Total funding since 2001 719,452 18,263,369 [120469] UK Sport is responsible for investing Exchequer and Hugh Robertson: The Department for Culture, Media national lottery funds in Britain’s best Olympic and and Sport (DCMS) provides grant in aid funding to Paralympic sports and athletes, this is not region specific. public bodies that help deliver our strategic aims and objectives for the arts, media, sport, museums/galleries Between 2004 and 2010 Exchequer funding was provided and libraries. The grant in aid allocated to these bodies by DCMS towards School Sports Partnerships, which since 2001 can be found in the Department’s annual the Department for Education (then Department for reports, and more recently in funding allocation letters, Children, Schools and Families) distributed to Liverpool which can be found at the following links: and the Merseyside area. http://www.culture.gov.uk/about_us/our_annual_report/ Film 1052.aspx Prior to 2011, all public funding to the Merseyside http://www.culture.gov.uk/images/publications/ Annual_Report_and_Accounts_2010_11.pdf area was handled through the now disbanded Regional Screen Agency (RSA), ’Northwest Vision+Media’ (V&M). and From 2002, when the V&M was created, to September http://www.culture.gov.uk/publications/9020.aspx 2011, V&M delivered approximately £2 million in Music, museums/galleries and libraries investment, including lottery awards and spend on services to the film industry, in the Merseyside area. This information Arts Council England (ACE) has provided details of is not available by constituency. funding they have provided for music and visual arts between the financial years 2001-02 and 2011-12 in the In addition, V&M managed the Liverpool Film and Walton constituency and Merseyside. This can be found TV fund (MFTVF) through which £2 million investment in the following table. ACE does not classify galleries went to businesses and productions in Liverpool. 139W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 140W

Since the abolition of the RSAs in October 2011 Percentage investment via Creative England (CE) has amounted to International tourist International tourism approximately £3,200, including both lottery awards arrivals receipts and investment in services to the North West. The Department cannot provide the levels of funding 2011 3.0 2.8 for the next three years for the categories requested by 2010 3.0 2.8 the hon. Member. However, details of the funding 2009 3.2 3.0 DCMS has allocated to its ALB’s until 2014-15 can be 2008 3.3 3.2 found in the funding allocation letters at the above link. 2007 3.4 3.7 2006 3.6 4.0 2005 3.5 3.8 Research 2004 3.4 3.8 2003 3.3 3.7 2002 3.2 3.7 Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what her policy is War Memorials on the publication of research and data commissioned by her Department and the bodies for which she is Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, responsible with or without a charge. [120316] Olympics, Media and Sport what assessment she has made of the current state of preservation of war Hugh Robertson: With regard to data, the Department memorials. [120472] for Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS) operates on a “presumption to publish” basis outlined in the Cabinet Mr Vaizey: The Department for Culture, Media and Office’s Open Data White Paper. The DCMS’ Open Sport (DCMS) provides funding to ensure war memorials Data Strategy affirms that the Department is committed are maintained and conserved to a high standard and to to making data openly available for re-use (subject to assess what further work is needed to ensure war memorials confidentiality and legal constraints). This strategy covers are kept in a good condition through its own grant DCMS data only; it does not currently extend to the scheme and the work of its sponsored bodies English Department’s arm’s length bodies (ALBs) or executive Heritage, the Heritage Lottery Fund and the Imperial agencies, many of which have leading open data initiatives War Museum. which use a number of models to share data. There are an estimated 100,000 war memorials in the UK, of which the majority are in England. English Statistical data produced by DCMS are published Heritage is exploring with partner organisations how and made available under the standards of the Code of the condition of this very large and significant part of Practice for Official Statistics, which include making the nation’s heritage can be assessed in a practical way. statistics available in as much detail as is reliable and Some progress has already been made by War Memorials practicable, subject to legal and confidentiality constraints. Trust and the Smartwater Foundation. The code also covers the Department’s ALBs which publish Official Statistics. The Department’s Head of The Imperial War Museum’s War Memorials Archive Profession for Statistics is responsible for ensuring ALBs (formerly UK National Inventory of War Memorials) have access to publication guidance and providing advice is working to compile a record of all UK war memorials when needed. Economic and social research is published and the names commemorated on them. This is to by the Department under the principles of the Government promote their appreciation, use and preservation. Further Social Research Publication Guidance. The first principle details are available at: states that the products of Government social research http://www.ukniwm.org.uk/ will be made publicly available (subject to any ethical The Heritage Lottery Fund (HLF) is taking forward and legal constraints). The Department’s ALBs are the War Memorial Action Group (WMAG). The expected to operate under the same principles. ALBs Membership of the WMAG is comprised of DCMS, are responsible for the research which they publish and funders, heritage organisations and representatives of the DCMS Head of Analysis is required to provide the local and voluntary sectors. The principal purpose advice and guidance when needed. of this group is to review the issues around the recording, understanding, protection and conservation of war memorials and to identify what further work is needed Tourism to ensure they are kept in good condition and continue to be a focus for commemoration of those who gave their lives in the service of the country. It has already Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, met and given the wider interest in war memorials, the Olympics, Media and Sport what estimate her Group will regularly report on progress in this area. Department has made of the UK’s market share of the international tourism industry in each of the last Around 1,200 war memorials are listed or scheduled and subject to the protections afforded by those designation 10 years. [120470] regimes. In addition, English Heritage is working in partnership with local authorities, the police, the Crown Hugh Robertson: The following table provides details Prosecution Service and concerned local groups on the of the UK’s market share of international tourism in Heritage Crime Programme. This programme aims to the last 10 years. These data were sourced from the protect vulnerable buildings and sites, including war United Nations World Tourism Organisation and memorials, from all threats, particularly metal theft and VisitBritain. criminal damage. 141W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 142W

The DCMS Memorial Grant Scheme provides grants This will take account of all administrative and expenditure towards the VAT paid by charities and faith groups on outturn data received from local authorities since the the construction, repair and maintenance of public Budget 2012 forecast, and will review the key modelling memorial structures. The scheme has an annual budget assumptions. of £0.5 million per year for this spending period. Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what assumptions his Department has recently employed in forecasting COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT council tax benefit expenditure as part of the process of Apprentices setting indicative allocations for council tax support; and if he will make a statement. [118709] Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many Brandon Lewis: Indicative council tax support allocations apprentices were employed by (a) his Department and in 2013-14, published here with methodology: (b) its principal contractors in each of the last five http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/ years; and what information his Department holds on localgovernment/2146644 the number of apprentices employed by local are based on the forecast subsidised council tax benefit government in that period. [118607] expenditure in England in 2013-14, This is calculated by applying England’s share of the 2010-11 subsidised Brandon Lewis: 21 external and four internal apprentices expenditure in Great Britain to the forecast subsidised have been employed in the Department for Communities expenditure in Great Britain in 2013-14, both published and Local Government over the last five years. External by the Department for Work and Pensions here: applicants were a mixture of either already in employment http://statistics.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd4/ or unemployed. They were contracted to work 36 hours index.php?page=expenditure per week and placed on an administrative officer salary Each local authority’s share of the England total is of £23,218. found by applying the billing authority’s share of the The Department does not keep a central record of 2010-11 subsidised council tax benefit expenditure and how many individuals have been employed by local then the local authority’s share of the area band D government in that period. council tax bill in 2012-13. An adjustment is made if the local authority’s budget pressure is greater than 0.860% Audit Commission or less than 0.176%. The forecast of subsidised expenditure in 2013-14 for Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Great Britain is built on data about past caseloads and Communities and Local Government what steps he expenditure and uses a number of assumptions from plans to take to ensure consistency in audits following the Office for Budgetary Responsibility to estimate the the abolition of the Audit Commission. [119535] future number of households who would have received the benefit had it continued, and on average how much Brandon Lewis [holding answer 6 September 2012]: benefit each household would have received. The data The draft Local Audit Bill includes the creation of a source underlying the forecasts is the Single Housing new regulatory framework for local public audit. To Benefit Data Extract—a monthly administrative data ensure that the high standards of auditing continue, the return from local authorities, the headline figures from National Audit Office will develop the code of audit which are published here: practice and supporting guidance that will set out how auditors perform their role. The Financial Reporting http://statistics.dwp.gov.uk/asd/index.php?page=hbctb Council, as the overall regulator, will be responsible for The forecast is built by estimating the future volumes of the oversight of recognised supervisory bodies (professional a number of subgroups receiving council tax benefit. accountancy bodies) that will supervise the work of These subgroups are defined by the other welfare benefits auditors and monitor the quality of audits undertaken. the household receives and assumptions are made around Full details are set out in the Command Paper, available the proportion of each projected benefit population at: who will also receive council tax benefit. The amount each group receives is uprated using assumptions on http://www.communities.gov.uk/localgovernment/ localgovernmentfinance/futurelocalaudit/ future council tax growth published here http://budgetresponsibility.independent.gov.uk/wordpress/ Council Tax Benefits docs/Council-tax-growth-March-12-EFO.pdf alongside estimates of growth in incomes for those on Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for the council tax benefit taper. Communities and Local Government by what methodology The Department for Work and Pensions intend to the forecast council tax benefit expenditure for 2013-14 publish a document with further details of the forecast has been established; how it will be updated to reflect methodology and trends by the end of September 2012. recent trends; and if he will make a statement. [118704]

Brandon Lewis: I refer the hon. Member to the answer Fire Services I gave today (PQ 118709) where the methodology regarding the forecast was given. Mr Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for The forecasts will next be updated to inform the 2012 Communities and Local Government if he will list the Autumn Statement, and will be published shortly afterwards. fire control rooms in England. [119103] 143W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 144W

Brandon Lewis: My Department ended the top down http://www.communities.gov.uk/housing/housingresearch/ regionalisation of control rooms and does not maintain housingstatistics/housingstatisticsby/homelessnessstatistics/ a list of control rooms. The responsibility for fire control publicationshomelessness rooms in England now rests with locally accountable The available figures for numbers of people estimated fire and rescue authorities. or counted as rough sleepers within each local authority area from 1998 to 2011 are published on the Department’s Fire Stations: Closures website at: http://www.communities.gov.uk/housing/housingresearch/ Gloria De Piero: To ask the Secretary of State for housingstatistics/housingstatisticsby/homelessnessstatistics/ Communities and Local Government how many fire roughsleepingcounts stations were closed in (a) England and Wales, (b) the Please note that the methodology involved was reviewed East Midlands, (c) Nottinghamshire and (d) Ashfield and changing during 2010, meaning that figures for constituency in each of the last three years. [118994] 2010 and 2011 are not comparable with those for earlier years. Brandon Lewis: Numbers of fire stations by fire and The Department does not collect or publish information rescue authority are held centrally, while numbers of on the number of homeless people in individual closures are not. While the Department’s responsibility parliamentary constituencies, except for the few cases is for England, figures including Wales are shown as where a constituency is coterminous with the area of a requested. local authority, which are covered in the answer above. The numbers of fire stations in England and Wales, Homelessness acceptances remain lower than in 28 of England only, the East Midlands and Nottinghamshire the last 30 years and are still under half the level it fire and rescue authority for the last six years are shown reached under the Labour Government (49,000 in 2011 in the following table. compared with 136,000 in 2003). Number of fire stations1 at 31 March We are investing £3900 million in homelessness prevention 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 over four years 2011-12 to 2014-15). We provided an additional £70 million last year to help local agencies England and 1599 1595 1596 1593 1583 1572 Wales prevent and tackle homelessness. England 1450 1446 1447 1433 1434 1423 East Midlands fire 136 136 135 135 135 135 Housing: Construction and rescue authorities Simon Hughes: To ask the Secretary of State for Nottinghamshire 25 25 24 24 24 24 Communities and Local Government how many new fire and rescue homes have been granted planning permission on land authority owned by the Government since May 2010; and how 1 Excludes five volunteer stations in England and two volunteer stations in Wales. many of those homes were affordable. [119310] Source: Chartered Institute of Public Finance Accountancy Nick Boles: DCLG collects information on the number of residential planning approvals granted but it is not Homelessness possible to determine from this information the number of homes granted permission, nor whether those Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for permissions were on land owned by the Government. Communities and Local Government what estimate he has made of the number of homeless people in each Simon Hughes: To ask the Secretary of State for (a) local authority area and (b) Parliamentary Communities and Local Government how much the constituency in each of the last 20 years. [120073] Government has received from the sale of land for building new houses since May 2010. [119311] Mr Prisk: The Department publishes statistics on homelessness for England. Figures for the other UK Mr Prisk: Specific information about how much the countries are a matter for the devolved Administrations. Government has received from the sale of its land for I have placed in the Library of the House, two tables new homes is not collected centrally. My Department’s setting out the numbers of households accepted by focus is on working with Government Departments to local housing authorities as eligible for assistance, support them in accelerating the release of their surplus unintentionally homeless and in priority need, and therefore land for development. It is for each Department to owed a main homelessness duty (to ensure that suitable obtain best value within the current market conditions, accommodation is available) for each local authority as set out in ‘Managing Public Money’ (HM Treasury), area and for each financial year from 1997-98 to 2011-12. whether it be for housing, or other uses. And importantly One table covers the period 1997-98 to 2008-09 and the the proceeds from this can be reinvested, for example in other one covers the period following local government health services. restructuring, from 2009-10 to 2011-12. This information As part of the public land programme we have identified has been collected from local authorities on quarterly land with capacity for over 100,000 homes and have P1E returns. committed to use Build Now, Pay Later terms on as Figures at local authority level for earlier years are much land as possible. On 6 September we announced a not readily available: some may be available from paper package of measures to support growth, including measures returns, but only at disproportionate cost. that will see land brought to the market more quickly, Quarterly figures for recent years are also available alongside improving the chances of getting development from the Department’s website at: started. 145W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 146W

Housing: Co-operatives Licensing

Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what recent steps Communities and Local Government what permits and he has taken to promote more co-operative housing; licences his Department and its public bodies issue to and if he will make a statement. [120429] businesses. [118820] Brandon Lewis: The Department for Communities Mr Prisk: The new neighbourhood planning regime and Local Government is able to grant licences to provides an opportunity for housing co-operatives to businesses for the re-use of its Crown copyright material, shape developments in their area. In conjunction with under delegated authority from the Director of the the recently announced support funding for custom-build Office of Public Sector Information/Controller of Her projects, these proposals should prove an attractive Majesty’s Stationery Office. Otherwise the Department proposition to the co-operative housing sector. and its public bodies do not issue permits or licences to In a bid to ease the regulatory burdens on co-operatives, businesses. the Localism Act 2011 exempted houses in multiple occupation that are controlled or managed by a co-operative Local Government Finance society from the houses in multiple occupation licensing regime. Jonathan Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for The Government and the Homes and Communities Communities and Local Government what advice his Agency is currently engaging with the Mutual Housing Department provides to local authorities on the issuing Group, which includes the Confederation of Co-operative of local authority bonds. [120296] Housing and other community led housing groups, on their proposals for an investment fund to support Brandon Lewis: Under the prudential system local development in the sector. authorities are able to borrow for capital projects without Government consent, provided that they can afford the borrowing costs. Authorities are free to choose the Housing: Sales source of these loans, and may borrow, should they wish to do so, by issuing bonds. As such the Department for Communities and Local Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of Government does not provide guidance or advice on State for Communities and Local Government if he the issuing or raising of bonds to authorities. will take steps to ensure that contracts between sellers and buyers of houses are made binding earlier in the Local Government Finance: Sefton process of house sales; and if he will make a statement. [119753] John Pugh: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what reserves Mr Prisk [holding answer 6 September 2012]: Under and balances are registered with his Department by the current home buying and selling system in England Sefton Metropolitan Borough Council. [119876] and Wales, properties are sold “subject to contract”, but the transaction is not finalised until contracts are Brandon Lewis: Provisional outturn information on exchanged. the reserve levels at 31 March 2012 for Sefton metropolitan borough council is given in the following table: However, it is worth noting that buyers and sellers in England and Wales are free to choose from a range of £000 options that can be used by those seeking more commitment and certainty that their transaction will be completed. Schools reserves level 18,549 These include ‘lock-out’ agreements, where the seller Other earmarked financial reserves 41,497 enters a binding agreement not to accept another offer level within a certain period; ‘option to purchase’ where the Unallocated financial reserves level 3,711 seller grants the buyer a binding option to purchase the Source: property at the agreed price within a set timescale; Department for Communities and Local Government Revenue Outturn ‘conditional contracts’, where buyer and seller enter returns. into a contract as soon as terms have been agreed, Parish Councils subject to certain conditions being satisfied; or ‘costs guarantee’, where both buyer and seller agree to pay the Mark Garnier: To ask the Secretary of State for other side’s costs, if they withdraw from the transaction. Communities and Local Government what consideration There is nothing to stop buyers and sellers agreeing to he has given to granting the power to initiate a community any of these arrangements on a voluntary basis. They governance review to the charter trustees of towns, each have their merits, but can be difficult to operate in without the need to petition 10 per cent of the town’s the English housing market where chains are commonplace electorate; and if he will make a statement. [118943] and can be long. I do not think it would be right to make any of these Brandon Lewis: The Government has no plans to arrangements compulsory for all sales—consumers should grant the power to initiate a community governance be free to consider them on a case by case basis. Given review to the charter trustees of towns, without the the flexibility of the present system, we have no plans need to petition the electorate. However the Department for reform in this area at the present time. for Communities and Local Government is preparing a 147W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 148W consultation on making it easier to set up new town and Brandon Lewis: The Department’s total programme parish councils, to which representations on this issue expenditure on marketing and communications for 2011-12 may be submitted. We anticipate that the consultation was £1,187,000. The Fire Kills campaign accounted for will be published shortly. the majority of this expenditure. A total of £17,728 was spent on right to buy products during 2011-12, mainly Pay comprising new leaflets, summarising the reinvigorated scheme, for local authorities and other social landlords to distribute to potentially eligible tenants, A2 and A3 Mark Pawsey: To ask the Secretary of State for posters for landlords to display and reprinted application Communities and Local Government with reference to forms. These were available when the reinvigorated scheme the answer of 5 September 2011, Official Report, was launched, following parliamentary approval, so column 10W, on departmental pay, what the estimated landlords were able to let their tenants know and respond saving to the public purse was from lower staff wage to any demand for information immediately. We are costs arising from industrial action by staff in (a) his committed to ensuring that tenants are aware of the Department and (b) its arm’s length bodies on 10 May increased discount levels and their rights, and to helping 2012. [119171] them to make well informed decisions. Brandon Lewis [holding answer 5 September 2012]: Social Rented Housing The following table sets out the details for Department Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for for Communities and Local Government and those Communities and Local Government what the total arm’s length bodies where staff participated in the stock of social housing was in (a) each English region industrial action on 10 May 2012. and (b) each London local authority in (i) 1982, (ii) 1991, (iii) 2001 and (iv) 2011. [120319] Saving (£) Mr Prisk: Statistics on the stock of housing in England, Department for Communities and 23,228.01 split by tenure, are published on the Department for Local Government Communities and Local Government website at the Planning Inspectorate (PINS) 7,100 following link. Taken together, the housing association Queen Elizabeth II Conference 364 Centre and local authority tenures comprise the social rented housing stock. Note: Costs are excluding employer’s national insurance and pension http://www.communities.gov.uk/housing/housingresearch/ contributions. housingstatistics/housingstatisticsby/stockincludingvacants/ Further detailed breakdowns of these data, including Planning Permission for individual local authorities, can be found in the suite of live tables at the following link: Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for http://www.communities.gov.uk/housing/housingresearch/ Communities and Local Government what the average housingstatistics/housingstatisticsby/stockincludingvacants/ livetables/ time taken was from receipt of planning application to decision by planning authorities in rural district Third Sector councils in the latest period for which figures are Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for available. [119223] Communities and Local Government what steps he has taken to put into practice the recommendations Brandon Lewis [holding answer 5 September 2012]: of the National Audit Office’s review of Central The average time taken from receipt of planning application Government’s implementation of the National Compact to decision by planning authorities in rural district published in January 2012. [120005] councils is not centrally available. Brandon Lewis [holding answer 7 September 2012]: Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Following the National Audit Office’s report, the Communities and Local Government what the average Department for Communities and Local Government time taken was from receipt of planning application to has: decision by planning authorities in National Parks in nominated a Senior Responsible Office for the Compact and a the latest period for which figures are available. civil society liaison officer responsible for day to day promotion and management of Compact implementation; [119224] detailed within its business plan (published May 2012) specific activities on which it will report on Compact compliance; and Brandon Lewis [holding answer 5 September 2012]: embedded the principles of the Compact within the new finance The average time taken from receipt of planning application training on grants which is being rolled out across the Department, to decision by planning authorities in National Parks is and the financial guidance on working with the Voluntary and not centrally available. Community Sector.

Right to Buy: Advertising EDUCATION Frank Website John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what his Department’s Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for budget for advertising and public awareness is in 2011-12; Education what funding has been allocated to the and what proportion of that budget has been spent on Frank website for 2012-13; and what his Department promoting the right to buy. [118701] has contributed to that allocation. [118877] 149W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 150W

Anna Soubry: I have been asked to reply on behalf of (b) The difference between the percentage of pupils in schools1 the Department of Health. achieving GCSE English2 grades A* to C in 2010 and 2011. Coverage: England The Department of Health funds the Frank website Percentage and have allocated £250,000 (exclusive of VAT) this point Number of Percentage financial year to run and develop the website. reduction schools of schools 1 190 6 3— 1 The analysis includes mainstream maintained schools with greater than 10 pupils and open for both years, changes in school status (converting to become a sponsored academy) have not been considered. GCSE: English Language 2 Some of the larger differences will be due to a change in the qualifications being taken; for example, double award GCSEs which have not been considered. 3 Indicates a brace. Damian Hinds: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how many and what percentage of schools had a reduction in the proportion of pupils receiving grades A*-C in GCSE English from the previous year HEALTH in (a) 2010 and (b) 2011; how large these reductions were; and if he will make a statement. [120205] Antidepressants

Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Elizabeth Truss: The information requested is given how many patients have been prescribed anti- in the following tables: depressants in each of the last five years. [119887] (a) The difference between the percentage of pupils in schools1 achieving GCSE English2 grades A* to C in 2009 and 2010. Norman Lamb: I refer the hon. Member to the answer Coverage: England the then Minister of State, my right hon. Friend, the Percentage Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns), gave on 11 June point Number of Percentage 2012, Official Report, columns 118-19W, to the hon. reduction schools of schools Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane). More than 10 159 5 1,030 (35%) of schools showed a Care Homes: Fees and Charges decrease 10 23 1 3— Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State 95223— for Health (1) what analysis his Department has 85823— undertaken into the effect on low income groups of 76023— 3 setting the cap on individual contributions to residential 6833— end-of-life care at (a) £35,000 and (b) higher than 59033— £35,000; [120546] 4 106 4 3— (2) whether his Department has undertaken any 3 101 3 3— demographic research into the socio-economic groups 2 131 4 3— 3 which would be most affected by setting a cap on 1 167 6 — individual contributions to residential end-of-life care. 1 The analysis includes mainstream maintained schools with greater [120547] than 10 pupils and open for both years, changes in school status (converting to become a sponsored academy) have not been considered. 2 Some of the larger differences will be due to a change in the Norman Lamb: The Department published a progress qualifications being taken; for example, double award GCSEs which report on funding reform in July 2012, which contains have not been considered. analysis of the Dilnot Commission proposals for a cap 3 Indicates brace. on care costs and of increasing the upper capital limit for means-tested support to £100,000. The report discusses (b) The difference between the percentage of pupils in schools1 how these proposals would affect different socio-economic achieving GCSE English2 grades A* to C in 2010 and 2011. Coverage: England groups. Percentage A copy of the progress report has already been placed point Number of Percentage in the Library. reduction schools of schools

More than 10 121 4 1,010 (34%) of Drugs: Rehabilitation schools showed a decrease Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for 10 36 1 3— Health how many people from Liverpool, Walton 93713— constituency are receiving drug treatment through the 3 8502— NHS. [120382] 76923— 68633— Anna Soubry: The information is not collected in the 58133— format requested. The National Treatment Agency for 49433— Substance Misuse advise that 4,919 adults received 3 105 4 3— specialist drug treatment in Liverpool in 2010-11. Data 2 141 5 3— are not available by parliamentary constituency area. 151W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 152W

Euthanasia Organisation 2009 2010 2011

Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what information his Department holds on the number Imperial College of patients who have requested assisted suicide in each Healthcare NHS Trust Doctors 1,964 1,704 1,698 of the last five years. [119883] Qualified nursing, 3,190 3,344 3,370 midwifery and health Anna Soubry: The Department does not hold this visiting staff information. Health care assistants 357 412 452 Guidance for health care staff who may have to deal Notes: with patients requesting help to die is available from the 1. Separate figures for Charing Cross Hospital are not centrally held. Instead, figures are given for Imperial College Healthcare NHS Royal College of Nursing (‘When someone asks for Trust, which includes Charing Cross Hospital. your assistance to die,’ October 2011) and from the 2. Healthcare assistants are defined as those staff included in the British Medical Association (‘Responding to patient Non-Medical Workforce Census with the H1 occupation code. Other requests relating to assisted suicide: guidance for doctors staff who work in support of doctors and nurses include unqualified in England, Wales and Northern Ireland,’ July 2010). nursing staff, support workers and clerical and estates staff and are not included here. Source: Flunitrazepam Health and Social Care Information Centre Medical and Dental Workforce Census and Health and Social Care Information Centre Non-Medical Workforce Census. Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many women were admitted to hospital with Health Services: Young People symptoms related to the drug flunitrazepam in each of the last five years. [119888] Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) if his Department will publish a response to Anna Soubry: Information on the number of women the report of the Children and Young People’s Health admitted to hospital with symptoms related to Outcomes Forum; [120054] flunitrazepam is not available or held centrally. (2) if he will implement the recommendations relevant to his Department contained in the report of Health Services: Greater London the Children and Young People’s Health Outcomes Forum; [120055] (3) if he will have discussions with the Secretary of Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Health State for Education on the recommendations of the how many (a) doctors, (b) nurses and (c) health care report of the Children and Young People’s Health assistants were employed by (i) North West London Outcomes Forum; [120056] Hospitals NHS Trust, (ii) Hillingdon Hospital and (iii) Charing Cross Hospital on 5 April (A) 2010, (4) if he will appoint a deputy responsible for health (B) 2011 and (C) 2012; and if he will make a statement. services for children and young people reporting to the [120430] Chief Medical Officer. [120058]

Dr Poulter: The numbers of national health service Dr Poulter: The Children and Young People’s Health hospital and community health services staff in each Outcomes Forum published its report to the Secretary specified staff group at North West London Hospitals of State for Health on 26 July 2012 and the NHS Trust, Hillingdon Hospital NHS Trust and Imperial recommendations made, including appointing a deputy College Healthcare NHS Trust, which includes Charing responsible for health services for children and young Cross Hospital, as at 30 September in 2009, 2010 and people reporting to the Chief Medical Officer, are being 2011 are shown in the following table Information for carefully considered. 2012 is not yet available and is due to be published in The forum’s report is being used as a basis for compiling spring 2013. the Children and Young People’s Health Outcomes Strategy. Discussions are under way with groups and Organisation 2009 2010 2011 organisations that have an interest in and responsibility for improved health outcomes for children and young Hillingdon Hospital people, including the Department for Education, in NHS Trust order that they can agree their commitments to meeting Doctors 343 376 388 the objectives of the strategy. The strategy itself is due Qualified nursing, 791 810 814 to be published in the autumn. midwifery and health visiting staff Health care assistants 301 266 290 Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will ask the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence to expand and prioritise its North West London Hospitals NHS Trust Quality Standards work programme as it applies to Doctors 700 746 770 children and young people. [120057] Qualified nursing, 1,421 1,622 1,615 midwifery and health Dr Poulter: The library of around 180 Quality Standard visiting staff topics already referred to the National Institute for Health care assistants 307 300 318 Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) includes a number 153W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 154W of topics specific to children and young people, as well Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for as topics that will cover adults, children and young Health how many full-time equivalent qualified health people together. We have asked NICE to give due visitors he expects to be employed across the NHS in weight to matters affecting children and young people each month from April 2012 to April 2015. [120065] in developing Quality Standards intended to be relevant to services for people of all ages. Dr Poulter: The total number of full-time equivalent The independent Children and YoungPeople’s Health health visitors employed by national health service Outcomes Forum, which reported in July 2012, made organisations in England in April 2012 was 8,396. several recommendations in relation to what NICE The currently planned total number employed will be could contribute in order that improved outcomes can 9,265 in April 2013, 10,822 in April 2014 and 12,336 in be delivered for children and young people. Department April 2015. of Health officials are liaising with NICE and the NHS The monthly breakdown of planned health visitor Commissioning Board, on the forum’s recommendations. numbers are not collected centrally. The NHS Commissioning Board will be responsible for referring NHS Quality Standard topics to NICE from Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for April 2013. Health what steps he plans to take to maintain the number of full-time equivalent qualified health visitors Health Visitors employed in the NHS after the Health Visitor Implementation Programme. [120066] Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health whether he plans to implement any new policies Dr Poulter: Our commitment is to increase health or issue guidelines on maximum caseload sizes for visitors by 4,200 (from a May 2010 baseline), by April 2015. The Government’s four-year transformational health visitors. [120047] programme will develop health visiting services that are universal, energised, and will improve health outcomes Dr Poulter: The Department is not intending to for mums and families. The number of full-time equivalent implement any policies or issue guidance relating to the (FTE) health visitors1 has increased by 339 (4.2%) since maximum caseload for health visitors. This is most May 2010. The total number is now 8,431 (as at 31 May effectively and safely determined at the local level by the 2012). The number of health visitor trainees has increased organisation providing the service through local monitoring markedly, with around 1,600 in training 2011-12. and support for individual health visitors. This ensures that local factors, particularly the demographics of the The Department of Health is facilitating the spread population and the associated level of need, can help of good practice and innovation stemming from the determine not only caseload size, but also the appropriate health visitor early implementer sites, which are working skill mix of staff in local health visitor teams. to deliver the new health visiting service model, thereby helping to lead a step-change and improvement in the The Department acknowledges that relatively high way services are provided across the country, which will caseload sizes can be challenging. However, the Government make a tangible difference to the lives of mums and are increasing the number of health visitors by an families looked after by health visitors. additional 4,200 (by April 2015) from a baseline of 8,092 (May 2010). This will ensure availability of more The NHS Commissioning Board (NHS CB) will take staff, thereby allowing local services more flexibility in on the responsibility for commissioning health visiting how they respond to demand for support for mothers services from April 2013; including implementation of and families. the new service model and workforce growth. By April 2015, the commitment is to transfer the commissioning of these services from the NHS CB to local authorities. Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many full-time equivalent qualified health Through their contribution to joint strategic needs visitors were employed in the NHS in (a) March 2012 assessments, local authorities develop a range of information and (b) March 2010. [120064] enabling them to understand the health needs of individuals and communities. They are therefore, best placed to decide where to employ health visitors so that they Dr Poulter: The total number of qualified full-time effectively support young mothers and families. equivalent (FTE) health visitors in the national health service in England in March 2012 was 8,199. In March Given the vital role that health visitors play in supporting 2010, the number of qualified FTE health visitors was families, it is anticipated that as part of preparation for 8,175. Many additional health visitors are currently this onwards transfer of commissioning responsibility, being trained. the NHS CB will want to engage its partner organisations in focusing on maintaining the current drive to increase The figures are taken from the monthly workforce health visitor numbers, and hence maintain the number statistics published by the Health and Social Care of full-time equivalent health visitors employed in the Information Centre. They do not include health visitors NHS from that point onwards. Availability of relevant employed by organisations that do not use the Electronic information about improvements in outcomes within Staff Record (ESR), such as local authorities and some the Public Health Outcomes Framework2, would inform social enterprises. activity that demonstrates the case for sustaining the The health visitor minimum data set has collected the numbers employed. number of health visitors that are not captured by the 1 This figure is taken from the health visitor minimum data set, ESR since August 2011 from strategic health authorities. which collects from strategic health authorities the number of In August 2011, the total number of non-ESR health health visitors on the electronic staff record (ESR) in addition to visitors was 192. In March 2012, this had risen to 258. those not recorded on ESR.. The total figure provided includes 155W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 156W over 200 health visitors not counted by the ESR, (e.g. directly 1“Improving outcomes and supporting transparency. Part 1: A employed by local authorities and social enterprises). The data do public health outcomes framework for England, 2013 to 2016” not include bank and agency staff. (published January 2012) 2“Improving outcomes and supporting transparency. Part 1: A public health outcomes framework for England, 2013 to 2016”, Hepatitis (published January 2012). Frank Dobson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will take steps to ensure that public health Health how many full-time equivalent qualified health commissioners reduce the gap between the number of visitors who had left the profession returned to the people being diagnosed with hepatitis C and the profession between April 2010 and April 2012. [120067] number of people that receive treatment for the condition. [120368] Dr Poulter: The number of health visitors that left the profession and returned to practice is not held centrally Anna Soubry: From 1 April 2013, Clinical for the time period requested. Commissioning Groups (CCGs) will have a statutory We are currently trialling a data collection that may obligation to arrange for the provision of health services provide this information in the future. The health visitor it considers necessary to meet the requirements of those minimum data set has collected the number of health patients for whom they are responsible. The Health and visitors that returned to practice, but only since July Social Care Act 2012 will require CCGs to act with a 2012. If the trial proves successful in providing reliable view to securing continuous improvement in the quality data, we hope to be able to publish from November of services provided to individuals in relation to the 2012. prevention, diagnosis or treatment of illness, including hepatitis C. It is important to note that as part of commitment to increase the number of health visitors, the number of Frank Dobson: To ask the Secretary of State for trainees increased from 545 in 2010-11 to 1,606 in Health what guidance his Department is providing 2011-12, an increase of 1,061. for public health commissioners within local authorities to ensure hepatitis C services are appropriately Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for commissioned from 1 April 2013. [120369] Health how many qualified health visitor roles existed in the NHS in (a) March 2012 and (b) March 2010. Anna Soubry: The National Institute for Health and [120068] Clinical Excellence (NICE) is currently developing public health guidance for health care professionals and the Dr Poulter: The total number of qualified health national health service on promoting and offering hepatitis visitor roles in the national health service in England in C (and hepatitis B) testing to those at risk. March 2012 was 10,220. In March 2010, the number of From 1 April 2013, Public Health England and local qualified health visitor roles was 10,397. authorities will support commissioners to use evidence Role count is the total count of specific roles within and guidelines published by NICE when commissioning an organisation and some people may have multiple services, including those for hepatitis C. roles either within or across organisations. This is determined by the unique assignment number given to individuals Hospitals: Admissions and each of their roles within the electronic staff record (ESR). Role count is only collected through the ESR Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health and therefore the above figures will not include health in which areas the five highest increases for admissions visitor roles in employers who do not use the ESR. to hospital occurred in each of the last five years. Role count differs to full-time equivalent, which is [119889] based on the proportion of time staff work in a role. The reduction in the number of health visitor roles may Anna Soubry: The information is shown in the following be because a greater number of posts are being held by tables: an individual (single role) as opposed to job shares Count of finished admission episodes (FAEs)1 by primary care (multiple roles). However, the size of the workforce trust of responsibility2 and year-on-year change for the years increased over the same period. Just looking at the 2006-07 to 2010-113 ESR, the full-time equivalent (FTE) number of health Percentage visitors increased by 24 (0.3%), meaning that there are PCT name 2006-07 2007-08 change fewer health visitors were working more hours in fewer Milton Keynes PCT 35,208 59,594 69.3 roles. Hounslow PCT 39,721 54,284 36.7 Richmond and 31,717 37,247 17.4 Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Twickenham PCT Health what research he has commissioned to monitor Warrington PCT 44,489 52,034 17.0 the effect of increased health visitor numbers on child Mid Essex PCT 66,018 76,913 16.5 and family health. [120069] Percentage Dr Poulter: The Department expects to see the beneficial PCT name 2007-08 2008-09 change impact for mothers and families of the increased number Isle of Wight NHS 20,180 32,704 62.1 of health visitors by 2015. The resultant improvements PCT to care and support for children and families are outlined Barnet PCT 62,675 85,792 36.9 in the Public Health Outcomes Framework1. 157W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 158W

organisational configuration. No process has yet been Percentage PCT name 2007-08 2008-09 change initiated to formally seek a partner by the trust and would only be commenced if the options appraisal were Enfield PCT 55,464 75,079 35.4 to conclude that approach as the future strategy for the Coventry Teaching 75,273 90,232 19.9 organisation with the necessary stakeholder support for PCT this. Mid Essex PCT 76,913 89,138 15.9 Hyperactivity: Children Percentage PCT name 2008-09 2009-10 change Jesse Norman: To ask the Secretary of State for Bexley Care Trust 54,160 61,113 12.8 Health if he will take steps to encourage research into Stoke on Trent PCT 76,705 85,759 11.8 the extent of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder Blackburn with 44,979 49,550 10.2 amongst children. [119879] Darwen PCT Birmingham East and 120,224 131,506 9.4 Dr Poulter: The Department’s National Institute for North PCT Health Research (NIHR) welcomes funding applications South Staffordshire 164,215 178,740 8.8 for research into any aspect of human health, including PCT attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). These applications are subject to peer review and judged in Percentage open competition, with awards being made on the basis PCT name 2009-10 2010-11 change of the scientific quality of the proposals made. Gateshead PCT 55,107 62,396 13.2 The findings of a study of the prevalence of ADHD Waltham Forest PCT 65,797 72,132 9.6 symptoms in a community sample of. children in the Eastern and Coastal 180,204 196,936 9.3 United Kingdom were published in 2010 in the ‘Journal Kent PCT of Attention Disorders’. This research was supported Somerset PCT 146,434 158,561 8.3 by a grant awarded by the Economic and Social Research Oxfordshire PCT 139,969 149,730 7.0 Council. 1 A finished admission episode (FAE) is the first period of in-patient care under one consultant within one healthcare provider. FAEs are Jesse Norman: To ask the Secretary of State for counted against the year in which the admission episode finishes. Health (1) what steps he is taking to monitor the Admissions do not represent the number of in-patients, as a person prescription of psychotropic drugs to children; [119880] may have more than one admission within the year. 2 Commissioning responsibility for individual patients rests with the (2) how many prescriptions for drugs used to treat primary care trust (PCT) with whom the patient is registered. This attention deficit hyperactivity disorder were issued free means that patients with a GP in one PCT area may reside in a of charge because the patient was under 16 years of age neighbouring or other area but remain the responsibility of the PCT in each of the last 10 years for which figures are with whom their GP of registration is associated. PCTs are also [119881] responsible for non-registered patients who are resident within their available. boundaries. 3 HES figures are available from 1989-90 onwards. Changes to the Dr Poulter: The prescription of psychotropic drugs figures over time need to be interpreted in the context of to children is not monitored or collected centrally. improvements in data quality and coverage (particularly in earlier years), improvements in coverage of independent sector activity Information on the number of prescriptions issued to (particularly from 2006-07) and changes in NHS practice. For treat attention deficit hyperactivity disorder to patients example, changes in activity may be due to changes in the provision under 16 is not collected centrally. of care. Note: Jesse Norman: To ask the Secretary of State for PCT boundaries changed in 2006, so annual comparisons from 2007-08 onwards are presented. Health what steps he is taking to ensure that Source: psychotropic drugs are only prescribed to children in Hospital Episode Statistics, (HES), Health and Social Care accordance with the guidelines issued by the National Information Centre. Activity in English NHS Hospitals and English Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence. [119882] NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector. Hospitals: North West Dr Poulter: Health care professionals are expected to fully take into account the guidelines issued by the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (NICE) when exercising their clinical judgment. what recent discussions have taken place about the possibility of a merger between St Helens and Knowsley In December 2011, a letter was sent by the Hospitals and North Cheshire Hospitals; and who has Chief Medical Officer, Chief Nursing Officer, Chief been involved in any such discussions. [120549] Pharmaceutical Officer and NHS Medical Director to a variety of health care professionals, including general Anna Soubry: We are aware that the board of St practitioners and Medical Directors of NHS trusts, Helens and Knowsley Teaching Hospitals NHS Trust which reminded them of the relevance of NICE guidelines has discussed a partnership with Warrington and Halton in delivering mental health care to children and young Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust as one of the options people. they will consider in determining a strategy that will Health care professionals do have the right to prescribe secure the sustainable provision of high quality healthcare these drugs if they feel it is clinically justified and in services. This options appraisal is in support of the keeping with specialist consensus given the individual trust’s plan for achievement of foundation trust status care needs of the child and in consultation with the as a stand alone organisation or as part of some new parent or guardian. 159W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 160W

Injuries: Animals Total sign Date ups Email sign up SMS sign up Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many people of each (a) age and (b) sex were May 2012 (from 8,219 8,003 216 18 May 2012) hospitalised with suspected animal attack injuries in June 2012 13,755 13,390 365 each area in each of the last five years; and what type July 2012 13,330 12,863 467 of animal caused the injury in each case. [119976] August 2012 12,875 12,442 433 Anna Soubry: The information requested has been Totals 48,479 46,678 1,481 placed in the Library. Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for NHS: Internet Health (1) how much it cost to set up the NHS Information Service for Parents website; [120052] Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) how much the NHS Information Service for Health (1) how many unique visitors to the NHS Parents website cost to run and maintain in each Information Service for Parents website were recorded month since its launch. [120053] in each month since its launch; [120048] (2) how many unique views of videos on the NHS Dr Poulter: On 18 May 2012, the Government launched Information Service for Parents website were recorded a new digital service for parents. Parents are invited to sign up from early pregnancy to receive regular free in each month since its launch. [120049] e-mail and SMS messages offering high quality advice, and signposting them to trusted sources of information. Dr Poulter: The following table gives a breakdown of information service for parents (ISP) visits, each month, The cost of setting up the Information Service for since the launch of the service in May 2012, together Parents website was £404,190. with pregnancy and baby pages visits to which users are The monthly cost to run and maintain the Information directed: Service for Parents website is £23,226. Service support for the website itself is not costed, Visits to “Pregnancy and charged or invoiced separately and is part of the overall Unique visitors to baby” pages on NHS ISP Microsite Choices cost of the provision of NHS Choices.

May 2012 2,030 683,604 NHS: Reorganisation June 2012 7,358 745,736 July 2012 6,655 799,076 Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for August 2012 6,684 886,833 Health under what circumstances he would intervene in Total 22,727 3,115,248 the case of a major configuration of NHS services; and Users of the service can access new specially if he will make a statement. [119977] commissioned short videos on pregnancy and parenting skills. The following table gives a breakdown of unique Anna Soubry: The reconfiguration of health services video views of information service for parents videos, is a matter for the local national health service. There each month, since the launch of the service: should be public consultation and any changes are subject to the four tests namely: Videos viewed on NHS Videos viewed on first, that they have support of general practitioner commissioners; Choices site YouTube second, arrangements for public and patient engagement, including local authorities must be strengthened; May 2012 27,771 1— third, there must be greater clarity about clinical evidence base June 2012 53,319 1— underpinning any proposals; and July 2012 58,551 1— fourth, any proposals must take into account the need to August 2012 62,126 1— develop and support patient choice. Total 201,767 105,064 1 Monthly breakdown not available from YouTube If plans are contested, the Overview and Scrutiny Committees of the relevant local authority can refer Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for these to the Secretary of State for Health. The Independent Health (1) how many individuals signed up to receive Reconfiguration Panel considers the objections and (a) text messages and (b) emails from the NHS advises the Secretary of State. The Secretary of State Information Service for Parents website in each month can then accept or reject advice. since its launch; [120050] (2) how many individuals are signed up to receive Older People: Day Centres (a) text messages and (b) emails from the NHS Information Service for Parents website. [120051] Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will discuss with the Secretary of State for Dr Poulter: Users of the service can sign-up to receive Communities and Local Government ways to market emails and/or SMS text messages related to the service council-run day centres for the elderly in (a) hospitals and their baby. The information service for parents and (b) GP surgeries; what the cost to his Department monthly sign-up rate and totals for emails and SMS would be of such marketing; and if he will make a text is as set out in the following table: statement. [120380] 161W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 162W

Norman Lamb: We currently have no plans to discuss Out-patients: Attendance this aspect of integrated working. It is important for older people and their carers that they experience care which is joined-up between the national health service and social care to meet their individual needs. The Richard Graham: To ask the Secretary of State for availability of services to meet the needs of individuals Health how many hospital appointments were missed is an issue best addressed locally by Health and Well-being in (a) Gloucestershire, (b) the South West and (c) England Boards. They provide the forum for local authorities, in each of the last five years. [119902] the NHS and wider partners to come together, understand local needs, and work towards integrating local provision as informed by their Joint Strategic Needs Assessment. Anna Soubry: The information is shown in the following The local authority has a duty to inform its population tables: of care services available in its area and can dl so with NHS partners.

South Gloucestershire PCT Number First attendances Subsequent First attendances missed (did not Subsequent attendances missed seen attend) First appointments attendances seen (did not attend)

2007-08 57,120 3,903 61,023 134,034 12,717 2008-09 56,281 3,632 59,913 142,705 12,775 2009-10 58,398 3,979 62,377 146,738 13,523 2010-11 61,347 3,568 64,915 147,210 13,257 2011-12 64,138 3,755 67,893 137,304 11,460

Number Total attendances missed Subsequent appointments Total attendances seen (did not attend) Total appointments

2007-08 146,751 191,154 16,620 207,774 2008-09 155,480 198,986 16,407 215,393 2009-10 160,261 205,136 17,502 222,638 2010-11 160,467 208,557 16,825 225,382 2011-12 148,764 201,442 15,215 216,657

Gloucestershire PCT Number First attendances Subsequent First attendances missed (did not Subsequent attendances missed seen attend) First appointments attendances seen (did not attend)

2007-08 138,955 10,204 149,159 270,930 26,510 2008-09 159,968 11,224 171,192 295,903 28,674 2009-10 159,275 11,718 170,993 290,981 28,662 2010-11 164,378 10,786 175,164 300,463 26,911 2011-12 164,943 9,079 174,022 302,051 24,024

Number Total attendances missed Subsequent appointments Total attendances seen (did not attend) Total appointments

2007-08 297,440 409,885 36,714 446,599 2008-09 324,577 455,871 39,898 495,769 2009-10 319,643 450,256 40,380 490,636 2010-11 327,374 464,841 37,697 502,538 2011-12 326,075 466,994 33,103 500,097

South West Strategic Health Authority Number First attendances Subsequent First attendances missed (did not Subsequent attendances missed seen attend) First appointments attendances seen (did not attend)

2007-08 1,390,020 99,528 1,489,548 2,608,984 248,666 2008-09 1,480,864 101,743 1,582,607 2,767,005 253,966 163W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 164W

South West Strategic Health Authority Number First attendances Subsequent First attendances missed (did not Subsequent attendances missed seen attend) First appointments attendances seen (did not attend)

2009-10 1,526,974 106,868 1,633,842 2,851,802 263,575 2010-11 1,568,547 103,893 1,672,440 2,971,254 258,972 2011-12 1,615,085 100,042 1,715,127 3,000,137 246,572

Number Total attendances missed Subsequent appointments Total attendances seen (did not attend) Total appointments

2007-08 2,857,650 3,999,004 348,194 4,347,198 2008-09 3,020,971 4,247,869 355,709 4,603,578 2009-10 3,115,377 4,378,776 370,443 4,749,219 2010-11 3,230,226 4,539,801 362,865 4,902,666 2011-12 3,246,709 4,615,222 346,614 4,961,836

England Number First attendances Subsequent First attendances missed (did not Subsequent attendances missed seen attend) First appointments attendances seen (did not attend)

2007-08 13,608,843 1,356,831 14,965,674 29,527,041 3,862,041 2008-09 14,953,410 1,430,296 16,383,706 31,808,019 4,090,929 2009-10 16,045,346 1,544,781 17,590,127 33,473,775 4,155,649 2010-11 16,828,630 1,589,611 18,418,241 35,171,162 4,138,620 2011-12 16,891,881 1,539,655 18,431,536 35,949,907 3,911,124

Number Total attendances missed Subsequent appointments Total attendances seen (did not attend) Total appointments

2007-08 33,389,082 43,135,884 5,218,872 48,354,756 2008-09 35,898,948 46,761,429 5,521,225 52,282,654 2009-10 37,629,424 49,519,121 5,700,430 55,219,551 2010-11 39,309,782 51,999,792 5,728,231 57,728,023 2011-12 39,861,031 52,841,788 5,450,779 58,292,567 Note: Out-patient appointments, Consultant led. All specialties, 2007-08 to 2011-12. Source: Department of Health Quarterly Activity Return.

Palliative Care determined by the availability of indicators and data, and the Adult Social Care Outcomes Framework does not have a corresponding indicator on end of life care. Sir Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for However, work continues to identify future areas for Health what consideration he has given to aligning the inclusion in the Adult Social Care Outcomes Framework. indicators in the NHS Outcomes Framework and Adult Social Care Outcomes Framework to ensure better integration of health and social care at the end of life. [120071] DEFENCE

Armed Forces: Career Development Norman Lamb: Better integration of health and social care at the end of life was highlighted as a priority in the Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for recent Care and Support White Paper. The Government Defence how many people in each of the services were has already committed to including an indicator in the promoted to a higher rank in each year since 1995; and NHS Outcomes Framework on the quality of end of what proportion such people formed of the total life care, based on the VOICES survey of bereaved number of personnel in their service in each year. carers. [119064] There are several shared outcomes between the NHS, Adult Social Care and Public Health, and the frameworks Mr Francois: The information sought is not available were designed to enable this. However, the extent to prior to 2000. The following tables set out the position which outcomes in these frameworks can be aligned is since 2000. 165W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 166W

Trained UK Regular promotions by service in each financial year as a Trained UK regular promotions by service in each financial year proportion of the trained strength at the start of each year (a) Naval (c) Royal Air Naval Service Financial year Service (b) Army Force

Financial Promotions 1 2 2 year Promotions Strength (percentage) 2000-01 3,580 — — 2001-02 3,000 2— 2— 2000-01 13,580 38,540 9.3 2002-03 3,290 2— 2— 2001-02 3,000 38,020 7.9 2003-04 3,400 2— 2— 2002-03 3,290 36,770 9.0 2004-05 3,550 2— 2— 2003-04 3,400 36,610 9.3 2005-06 3,230 2— 2— 2004-05 3,550 36,420 9.7 2006-07 2,580 2— 5,370 2005-06 3,230 35,500 9.1 2007-08 3,530 14,200 5,080 2006-07 2,580 34,890 7.4 2008-09 3,050 17,270 5,690 2007-08 3,530 34,260 10.3 2009-10 34,010 315,640 39,020 2008-09 3,050 34,520 8.8 2010-11 33,090 313,970 38,350 2009-10 24,010 234,400 211.7 2011-12 32,400 313,220 35,360 2010-11 23,090 235,170 28.8 Note: 2011-12 22,400 235,250 26.8 Promotions from other ranks to officers are excluded. 1 Figures are rounded to the nearest 10, except for numbers ending in ’5’ which are rounded to the nearest 20 in order to avoid systematic Army bias. Financial Promotions 2 Denotes not available. year Promotions Strength (percentage) 3 DASA is reviewing its administrative data post April 2009 and until this work is complete, data from 1 May 2009 to 1 October 2011 are 2000-01 n/a 96,470 n/a provisional and subject to review. 2001-02 n/a 96,280 n/a 2002-03 n/a 96,020 n/a Armed Forces: Redundancy 2003-04 n/a 97,640 n/a 2004-05 n/a 99,420 n/a Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for 2005-06 n/a 98,490 n/a Defence (1) whether length of service was a consideration 2006-07 n/a 96,790 n/a in the selection of individuals for redundancy 2007-08 14,200 95,060 14.9 announcements made in tranches 1 and 2; [118601] 2008-09 17,270 93,620 18.4 2 2 2 (2) if length of service was a consideration in the 2009-10 15,640 94,870 16.5 selection of individuals for redundancy announcements 2 2 2 2010-11 13,970 97,980 14.3 made in Tranches 1 and 2 of the Armed Forces Redundancy 2 2 2 2011-12 13,220 97,270 13.6 Programme; [118733] (3) whether his Department took length of service Royal Air Force into consideration when determining the redundancies Financial Promotions to be made in Tranches 1 and 2. [119803] year Promotions Strength (percentage)

2000-01 n/a 50,990 n/a Mr Francois [holding answer 6 September 2012]: No. 2001-02 n/a 49,850 n/a We have been clear that the length of service was not a 2002-03 n/a 48,880 n/a consideration in the selection of individuals for redundancy 2003-04 n/a 48,540 n/a and we have worked hard to ensure that that many more 2004-05 n/a 48,740 n/a individuals have received an immediate income for which 2005-06 n/a 48,850 n/a they otherwise would not have qualified. Only 1.2% of 2006-07 5,370 46,610 11.5 individuals who have been selected for redundancy are within one year of qualifying for their immediate pension. 2007-08 5,080 43,170 11.8 These personnel will receive a significantly larger tax 2008-09 5,690 40,040 14.2 free lump sum, which could total over £100,000, and 2009-10 29,020 239,240 223.0 2 2 2 still get all their accrued pension rights at the age of 60 2010-11 8,350 40,110 20.8 or 65. 2011-12 25,360 240,070 213.4 1 Figures are rounded to the nearest 10, except for numbers ending in ’5’ which are rounded to the nearest 20 in order to avoid systematic Departmental Responsibilities bias. 2 DASA is reviewing its administrative data post April 2009 and until Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for this work is complete, data from 1 May 2009 to 1 October 2011 are Defence how many senior responsible owners have provisional and subject to review. been designated within his Department; and to which project each such person is currently assigned. [119502] Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many personnel in each rank in the Mr Francois [holding answer 6 September 2012]: The (a) Army, (b) Royal Air Force and (c) Royal Navy Permanent Secretary has appointed 16 senior responsible were promoted to a more senior rank in each year since owners, who are responsible to the Defence Board, and 2000. [119068] who currently lead 18 major business change and military capability programmes, which are as follows: Mr Francois: The information available is set out in Army 2020 the following table: Asset Management Programme (AMP) 167W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 168W

Basing Optimisation Programme (BOP) (formal appointment MOD courses in the UK, the local provision of defence pending) education, senior officials’ level engagement and training BORONA (formal appointment pending) on conducting Peace Support Operations and maritime/ Carrier Enabled Power Projection (CEPP) (formal appointment border security. pending) Corporate Services Systems Convergence Programme (CSSCP) Israel Corporate Services Transformation Programme (CSTP) Defence Core Network Services (DCNS) Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Cyber Security Programme (DCSP) (formal appointment Defence whether any members of the Israeli armed pending) forces have been attached to HM armed forces in each Defence Information Infrastructure (DII) of the last five years. [120356] Defence Infrastructure Transformation Programme (DITP) Defence Reform Programme (DRP) Mr Robathan [holding answer 10 September 2012]: Future Reserves 2020 (FR20) No members of the Israeli armed forces have been Logistics Commodities Services Transformation (LCST) attached to the UK armed forces in the past five years. New Employment Model (NEM) Submarine Enterprise Performance Programme (SEPP) Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Successor Deterrent Submarine Programme (SDSP) Defence whether any members of HM armed forces The Materiel Strategy (TMS) (formal appointment pending). have been attached to the Israeli armed forces in each of the last five years. [120357] HMS Victory Mr Robathan [holding answer 10 September 2012]: Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for No members of the armed forces have been attached to Defence what the ownership status is of monetary the Israeli armed forces in the past five years. items discovered at the site of HMS Victory 1744. [119219] Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Francois [holding answer 5 September 2012]: The Defence whether any members of the Israeli armed Deed of Gift signed in January 2012 transferred ownership forces and security forces have attended training to the Maritime Heritage Foundation of the wreck of courses in the UK provided by his Department in each HMS Victory 1744 and all that is associated with her in of the last five years. [120358] the vicinity of where she is lying, except for personal property not belonging to the Crown. Mr Robathan [holding answer 10 September 2012]: An Advisory Group has been established comprising Members of the Israeli Defence Force attended UK representatives of English Heritage and the National defence education courses in 2008, 2009, 2010 and Museum of the Royal Navy and chaired by MOD; 2012. DCMS has an observer role. The Group provides advice to both the Foundation and the Secretary of State on Museums the extent to which actions proposed by the Foundation are consistent with archaeological principles set out in Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Annex A to the UNESCO Convention on the Protection Defence if he will estimate the value of the assets and of Underwater Cultural Heritage. Any physical activity property at each location of the Royal Navy Museums undertaken on the site will require the prior consent of and the Royal Air Force Museums. [119542] the Secretary of State, who would of course be advised by the Advisory Group. Mr Francois: The total net book value for the Royal Navy museums, as at 31 March 2011, is £23.386 million. Hungary This is taken from the 2010-11 audited accounts and is Mr Spellar: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence broken down by each of the Royal Navy museums in what discussions he has had with representatives of the following table. For the 2011-12 accounts all Royal Navy assets are consolidated under the National Museum NATO on the case of Ramil Safarov. [120225] of the Royal Navy. Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence has not had any discussion on the case of Mr Safarov with NATO. £ million Museum Land and buildings Other assets

Indonesia Royal Naval 2.352 1.524 Museum Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Royal Marines 4.387 0.782 Defence whether (a) his Department and (b) the Museum armed forces provided advice or training to Indonesian Submarine Museum 2.923 1.143 security and defence forces in the last five years. Fleet Air Arm 6,861 3.414 [119135] Museum

Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence (MOD) The total net book value of the RAF museum as at continues to provide advice and training to the Indonesian 31 March 2011 is £61,614,018. However, it should be Defence of Security forces in support of Indonesia’s noted that although the top level figures are held within security sector reform process. This includes places on the Ministry of Defence, the assets themselves are owned 169W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 170W by the RAF Museum. The MOD does not hold the SNMCMG 1 SNMCMG 2 detailed breakdown between the two sites at Hendon and Cosford. HMS Penzance — This information is in the public domain and can be 2011 HMS Brocklesby HMS Brocklesby found on: — HMS Bangor www.official-documents.gov.uk 2012 — HMS Ledbury — HMS Blyth NATO SNMG MCM Group deployments for the future Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for have been planned with three units of four month Defence (1) what assets have been assigned to (a) deployments allocated per year from 2013 to 2018. Standing NATO Maritime Group 1, (b) Standing NATO Maritime Group 2, (c) Standing NATO Mine Countermeasures Group 1 and (d) Standing NATO Reserve Forces Mine Countermeasures Group 2 in the last seven years; and for how long they were assigned to each such Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for group; [119547] Defence (1) what personal contribution volunteer (2) what assets have been requested by (a) Standing reservists have been required to make towards travel to NATO Maritime Group 1, (b) Standing NATO Maritime their place of duty since April 2011; [120259] Group 2, (c) Standing NATO Mine Countermeasures (2) what changes have been made to travel Group 1 and (d) Standing NATO Mine Countermeasures contributions for volunteer reservists since April 2011. Group 2 for future deployment. [119548] [120260]

Mr Robathan: The following table shows the frigates Mr Francois [holding answer 10 September 2012]: or destroyers assigned to the Standing NATO Maritime Service personnel, including the volunteer reserve, are Groups in the last seven years. Where there are two in some cases able to claim home to duty travel allowance ships assigned in one year the periods of support is six (HDT). This allowance requires a daily personal months per ship. contribution to the cost of the journeys to work for which they make a claim. In April 2011 the HDT claim Standing NATO Mine Group 1 Standing NATO Mine Group 2 could be made for every mile after the first. Since 1 May 2006 Nil HMS Nottingham HMS 2011, the personal contribution to home to duty travel Yo rk allowance distance has been increased from one mile to 2007 HMS Montrose HMS Northumberland three miles. The volunteer reserve may claim HDT 2008 HMS Somerset HMS Cumberland when travelling from home or their normal civilian 2009 HMS St Albans HMS Cornwall place of work to attend training. 2010 Nil HMS Chatham HMS In April 2011 the personal contribution ranged from Montrose 18p per day to 50p subject to the mode of transport. 2011 Nil Nil From 1 May 2011 the contributions increased to range 2012 Nil Nil from 53p to £1.50, still based on transport type. There were further planned incremental increases to In 2011, the ship assigned was re-tasked to the NATO this qualifying distance taking it to six miles from Operation Unified Protector. Since that time no dedicated 1 April 2012 and nine miles in 2013. I am pleased to ship has been assigned to Standing NATO Mine Group 1 confirm that these measures are no longer deemed or 2. The Royal Navy continues to offer a frigate or necessary, so the three-mile qualifying distance remains destroyer to NATO Immediate Reaction Force activation extant. as required. The following table shows the mine counter measures (MCM) vessels and coastal survey vessel assigned to the Submarines Standing NATO Mine Counter Measures Groups (SNMCMG) in the last seven years. The MCMs have undertaken varying periods of support from four to Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for 12 month deployments. Defence (1) what the fully manned establishment is of the Submarine Service; [120254] SNMCMG 1 SNMCMG 2 (2) how many nuclear engineers are available to the Submarine Service; and if he will make a statement; 2006 HMS Hurworth — [120255] 2007 HMS Brocklesby — (3) what recent assessment he has made of manning HMS Middleton — levels in the Submarine Service; and if he will make a 2008 HMS Roebuck — statement. [120256] HMS Hurworth — HMS Ledbury — Mr Francois [holding answer 10 September 2012]: 2009 HMS Brocklesby — Manpower levels within the Submarine Service are HMS Quorn — monitored on a monthly basis in order that management 2010 HMS Blyth — action can be taken to match strength to the Naval Service requirement. 171W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 172W

The fully manned establishment of the Royal Navy military action involving (i) USAF Lakenheath and Submarine Service is 4,053 trained officers and ratings (ii) other US bases in the UK will be brought before and the Royal Navy currently has 1,490 trained nuclear hon. Members for debate and decision. [120318] engineers (including nuclear technicians). Mr Robathan: The potential use of bases in the United Kingdom by United States forces would be a Syria matter for joint decision by the two Governments in light of the circumstances prevailing at the time. Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) how many personnel in the Syrian armed Ulster Defence Regiment forces were trained by the UK armed forces by (a) rank, (b) location of training and (c) duration of training in Mr Gregory Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State each of the last 10 years; [119601] for Defence what level of recognition payments were (2) what training his Department provided to Syrian made to part-time members of the Ulster Defence armed forces personnel in each of the last 10 years; Regiment; who was eligible for such payments; and [119602] whether any other types of recognition payments will be considered. [120235] (3) what the cost was to the public purse of training Syrian armed forces personnel in each of the last Mr Robathan [holding answer 10 September 2012]: 10 years; [119603] Part-time members of the Ulster Defence Regiment (4) whether any personnel from the Syrian armed who transferred over to the Royal Irish Regiment Home forces being trained in the UK have claimed political Service in 1992 and were in service on 31 August 2006, asylum; [119604] received an ex-gratia payment which was part of a (5) how much money his Department has received package intended to recognise the unique circumstances from the Syrian government for training its armed surrounding the disbandment of the home service element of the regiment. The criteria for this payment would not forces personnel in each of the last 10 years; [119605] therefore have been applicable to former part-time members (6) what rank and positions were held by Syrian of the Ulster Defence Regiment who left prior to that armed forces personnel who have been trained in the qualifying date. UK in the last 10 years (a) at the time of their Other types of payments, where appropriate, will be enrolment for training and (b) now. [119608] considered on a case-by-case basis.

Mr Robathan [holding answers 6 and 7 September Yorkshire Regiment 2012]: The Ministry of Defence has a long tradition of providing defence education to international military Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for personnel at its training establishments throughout the Defence how many people were recruited into the 2nd United Kingdom. Over the period in question, the UK Battalion, The Yorkshire Regiment (Green Howards) has provided the following training to five Syrian armed at the Middlesbrough Armed Forces Career Office in forces personnel: (a) 2008, (b) 2009, (c) 2010, (d) 2011 and (e) 2012 to 2003 to 2004: One Syrian officer cadet completed the date. [120433] commissioning course at The Royal Military Academy Sandhurst (RMAS) at a cost of approximately £40,000. Mr Francois: I refer the hon. Member to the answer 2004 to 2005: A Syrian lieutenant colonel attended the advanced given on 17 July 2012, Official Report, column 755W. command and staff course at the Defence Academy in Shrivenham, Information showing how many people were recruited and associated language training at a cost of £69,000. from specific towns and areas is not held in the format 2005 to 2006: Two Syrian lieutenant colonels attended the requested and could be provided only at disproportionate diploma in Defence Diplomacy course, which was subsequently cost. renamed as the Managing Defence in a Wider Security Context. The cost of both officers was £10,600. 2008: One Syrian colonel attended the Managing Defence in a Wider Security Context course, at a cost of £7,300. WORK AND PENSIONS No personnel from the Syrian armed forces being Benefit Deduction Orders trained in the UK have claimed political asylum while undergoing training in the UK. John Glen: To ask the Secretary of State for Work The Ministry of Defence has received no money from and Pensions how many benefit deduction orders were the Syrian Government in respect of this training. requested by HM Courts and Tribunals Service but not As the British embassy in Damascus was closed on 29 granted by his Department in the latest period for February 2012, there is currently no mechanism for which figures are available. [119521] ascertaining either the current ranks or positions of these five individuals. Mr Hoban: We do not have statistically robust figures relating to the inquiry. In view of the current circumstances in Syria, the UK is not providing any defence education to Syrian armed Children: Day Care forces personnel. Andrew Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Fabian Hamilton: To ask the Secretary of State for and Pensions what steps he is taking to ensure that Defence if he will make it his policy that any plans to good quality affordable child care is available for intervene in (a) Syria and (b) other countries with jobseekers. [119869] 173W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 174W

Steve Webb: Providing help with the cost of and Employment Schemes: Brigg improving access to formal child care continue to be at the forefront of our policies. Andrew Percy: To ask the Secretary of State for Work The Government invests around £5 billion each year and Pensions what recent progress has been made on in early education and child care. Investment in the free mandatory work activity and voluntary work early education entitlement is around £2 billion and experience schemes in Brigg and Goole constituency. nearly £2 billion each year goes to help working parents [120280] with the cost of child care, mostly through working tax credit. Around £800 million is provided through tax Mr Hoban: For the period May 2011 up to and and national insurance relief on child care vouchers, including February 2012, there have been 40 referrals to directly contracted child care and workplace nurseries. MWA and 20 starts on mandatory work activity in The Government is investing an extra £300 million Brigg and Goole. for child care support under universal credit which will For the period January 2011 up to and including May help around 80,000 more families, for the first time 2012, there have been 90 starts to a work experience supporting parents who work under 16 hours a week. placement in Brigg and Goole. While parents are looking for work, they can receive The values have been rounded to the nearest 10. help with child care costs when they attend employment For further information on the official statistics, see programmes. Additional financial support in the first the following: weeks of starting employment can be available through http://statistics.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd1/pwp/ Childcare Assist and Childcare Subsidy, both part of index.php?page=pwp the Flexible Support Fund. On 19 June, the Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Housing Benefit: South East Minister announced the Childcare Commission which will look at how to make child care more affordable for Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for parents and reduce unnecessary burdens on employers. Work and Pensions how much Discretionary Housing The Commission will report in the autumn. Payment funding has been allocated to each local authority in the South East in 2012-13. [120530]

Employment and Support Allowance Mr Hoban: The following table shows the Government contribution towards discretionary housing payments allocated for 2012-13, the amount of unspent Government Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for contribution from 2011-12 that has been permitted to Work and Pensions for what reason employment and be carried forward into 2012-13, and the overall total support allowance payment to claimants who are in the expenditure limit for discretionary housing payments process of submitting an ESA3 form are terminated for 2012-13 for each local authority in the south east of until the application has been processed. [120437] England.

Mr Hoban: A limit of 365 days of entitlement to £ contributory employment and support allowance for Carry over of claimants other than those in the support group was unspent introduced from 1 May 2012. Any days of entitlement Government Government Total falling before that day are taken into account. contribution contribution discretionary towards towards housing Those people who have not already been assessed for discretionary discretionary payments the income-related element of employment and support housing housing expenditure allowance are contacted eight weeks before their entitlement payments payments limit for Local authority 2012-13 from 2011-12 2012-13 to contributory allowance is due to end. They are informed of the forthcoming change to Adur 35,720 7,672 108,480 their benefit entitlement and asked if they wish to be Arun 119,866 52,885 431,878 considered for an income-related allowance. If they do, Ashford 63,529 3,615 167,860 they are asked to complete form ESA3 which provides Aylesbury Vale 69,674 — 174,185 us with the necessary information about their financial Basingstoke and 56,422 7,487 159,773 circumstances to enable their entitlement to be decided Deane before contribution-based employment and support Bracknell Forest 45,263 6,776 130,098 allowance ends. Brighton and 633,236 239,142 2,180,945 Hove If, at the time the claimant has been entitled to a Canterbury 87,410 11 218,553 contributory allowance for 365 days, their entitlement Cherwell 114,239 25,502 349,353 to an income-related allowance has not, for whatever Chichester 152,336 — 380,840 reason, been decided, their award of employment and Chiltern 50,241 — 125,603 support allowance will necessarily terminate in accordance with the legislation. If it is subsequently decided that Crawley 91,558 — 228,895 the claimant is entitled to the income-related allowance, Dartford 69,217 3,120 180,843 they will be awarded arrears, as appropriate. Dover 113,052 5,505 296,393 East Hampshire 32,271 3,746 90,043 Claimants who are entitled only to income-related Eastbourne 140,437 794 353,078 Employment and Support Allowance are not affected Eastleigh 42,203 6,510 121,783 by the introduction of the time limit. 175W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 176W

Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for £ Work and Pensions how much Discretionary Housing Carryoverof unspent Payment funding was (a) allocated and (b) spent by Government Government Total each local authority in the South East in 2011-12. contribution contribution discretionary [120531] towards towards housing discretionary discretionary payments housing housing expenditure Mr Hoban: The following table shows the Government payments payments limit for contribution towards discretionary housing payments Local authority 2012-13 from 2011-12 2012-13 made available in 2011-12 and the total expenditure on discretionary housing payments for 2011-12 for each Elmbridge 163,579 80,499 610,195 local authority in the south east of England. Epsom and Ewell 58,866 9,170 170,090 Fareham 33,983 3,448 93,578 £ Gosport 39,774 — 99,435 Government Reported Gravesham 81,863 — 204,658 contribution towards expenditure on Guildford 82,340 — 205,850 discretionary discretionary Hart 24,599 8,653 83,130 housing payments housing payments in Local authority 2011-12 2011-12 Hastings 156,525 2,546 397,678 Havant 67,207 — 168,018 Adur 21,421 13,749 Horsham 52,072 12,737 162,023 Arun 80,180 27,150 Isle of Wight 111,808 25,594 343,505 Ashford 42,111 38,496 Lewes 83,495 25,257 271,880 Aylesbury Vale 37,836 47,267 Maidstone 126,623 — 316,558 Basingstoke and 42,407 34,920 Medway 250,518 21,088 679,015 Deane Mid Sussex 49,948 3,593 133,853 Bracknell Forest 21,716 14,940 Milton Keynes 219,692 21,017 601,773 Brighton and Hove 387,835 148,693 Mole Valley 36,070 10,684 116,885 Canterbury 48,030 48,019 New Forest 93,754 11,389 262,858 Cherwell 90,326 64,824 Oxford 229,846 — 574,615 Chichester 129,619 140,206 Portsmouth 189,015 3,237 480,630 Chiltern 38,759 15,277 Reading 232,717 13,531 615,620 Crawley 52,388 89,971 Reigate and 46,323 4,060 125,958 Dartford 25,507 22,387 Banstead Dover 71,209 65,704 Rother 88,300 35,685 309,963 East Hampshire 23,066 19,320 Runnymede 38,380 — 95,950 Eastbourne 88,847 88,053 Rushmoor 51,871 — 129,678 Eastleigh 20,028 13,518 Sevenoaks 56,674 22,823 198,743 Elmbridge 126,926 46,427 Shepway 116,110 13,007 322,793 Epsom and Ewell 32,780 21,197 Slough 222,406 42,994 663,500 Fareham 23,076 19,628 South Bucks 34,014 17,094 127,770 Gosport 18,358 13,866 South 51,618 9,528 152,865 Gravesham 22,864 25,201 Oxfordshire Guildford 43,929 32,981 Southampton 209,836 52,610 656,115 Hart 13,872 5,219 Spelthorne 58,816 3,951 156,918 Hastings 98,509 95,963 Surrey Heath 26,225 — 65,563 Havant 33,584 33,584 Swale 159,404 15,041 436,113 Horsham 34,414 21,677 Tandridge 46,304 9,105 138,523 Isle of Wight 65,820 40,226 Test Valley 46,565 — 116,413 Lewes 58,716 33,459 Thanet 238,850 9,309 620,398 Maidstone 109,924 37,345 Tonbridge and 41,969 — 104,923 Medway 109,500 82,912 Mailing Mid Sussex 25,054 21,461 Tunbridge Wells 52,971 — 132,428 Milton Keynes 94,404 73,387 Vale of White 40,523 11,471 129,985 Mole Valley 23,365 12,681 Horse New Forest 57,765 46,376 Waverley 65,841 22,372 220,533 Oxford 105,520 143,027 Wealden . 105,336 4,056 273,480 Portsmouth 95,125 91,888 West Berkshire 116,340 — 290,850 Reading 102,237 88,706 West Oxfordshire 44,209 10,441 136,625 Reigate and 25,106 21,046 Winchester 38,744 8,870 119,035 Banstead Windsor and 122,068 — 305,170 Rother 73,222 37,537 Maidenhead Runnymede 20,996 21,865 Woking 60,979 — 152,448 Rushmoor 15,303 12,757 Wokingham 49,411 9,613 147,560 Sevenoaks 46,746 23,923 Worthing 75,108 — 187,770 Shepway 54,651 38,260 Wycombe 93,242 33,948 317,975 Slough 82,579 39,585 177W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 178W

2014—reducing burdens on business and leaving Great £ Britain with a simpler, more effective regulatory framework. Government Reported contribution towards expenditure on Jobseeker’s Allowance discretionary discretionary housing payments housing payments in Local authority 2011-12 2011-12 Gareth Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many people were prosecuted South Bucks 27,737 10,643 for illegally claiming jobseeker’s allowance while South Oxfordshire 27,489 16,056 working in each of the last 10 years. [119051] Southampton 100,882 48,272 Spelthorne 25,811 21,860 Mr Hoban: It is not possible to say how many people Surrey Heath 17,589 24,925 were prosecuted for failing to declare work or earnings Swale 83,537 68,496 while claiming jobseeker’s allowance (JSA). However Tandridge 29,291 20,186 departmental records indicate that the number of people Test Valley 29,957 32,523 prosecuted for failing to declare any income or circumstance Thanet 75,708 66,399 affecting JSA claims were: Tonbridge and 32,834 32,783 November 2009 to March 2010: 216 Malling 2010-11: 1,264 Tunbridge Wells 35,904 21,471 2011-12: 1,480. Vale of White 24,533 11,315 Horse The above figures include all offences (not just working Waverley 42,011 19,639 while claiming benefit) and could therefore also relate Wealden 81,775 77,719 to: West Berkshire 59,456 72,398 non-declaration of capital West Oxfordshire 23,385 12,944 non-declaration of a partner in employment Winchester 20,708 11,838 non-declaration of other income affecting JSA. Windsor and 75,801 84,635 The number of prosecutions arising from fraudulent Maidenhead claims to JSA is not available prior to November 2009 Woking 33,480 7,426 because information by benefit type was not recorded Wokingham 18,060 8,447 before that date. Worthing 38,742 14,779 Data source: Wycombe 57,617 20,758 Fraud Referral and Intervention Management System (FRAIMS)

Industrial Health and Safety Members: Correspondence

Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what target was recommended by Work and Pensions when he intends to answer the the Lofstedt Report for reductions in health and safety letter concerning Ms K Billington sent to him by the regulations through sector-specific consolidation; what right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton on 23 July target he has set for such reductions; and what the 2012. [119552] evidence base was which informed his decision on the Mr Hoban: The Secretary of State for Work and level at which to set the target. [120544] Pensions, my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr Duncan Smith), replied to Mr Hoban: Professor Lofstedt in his independent the right hon. Member on 6 September 2012. review of health and safety legislation recommended that the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) undertake Social Security Benefits a programme of sector-specific consolidations in order to simplify the regulatory framework, reduce duplication Richard Graham: To ask the Secretary of State for and avoid gold plating. His recommendation was based Work and Pensions what the cost to the public purse on submissions from industry in the call for evidence was of benefits received in (a) Gloucester constituency, for his review and from the wider public via the (b) the south-west and (c) England in each of the last Government’s Red Tape Challenge. No target for reduction five years. [119906] by consolidation was set by the Professor nor has the Government set one. Mr Hoban: 2011-12 data will be published on HSE is currently consulting with the relevant industry 21 September. Benefit expenditure for the last five years sectors on proposals for consolidation and it is expected published is shown in the following table, where estimates this work will have been completed by the end of are available:

Total identified benefit expenditure £ million 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11

Cash terms (a) Gloucester 168 178 190 208 197 (b) South West 9,820 10,483 11,282 12,425 12,902 (c) England 98,156 104,050 111,015 122,070 126,382 179W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 180W

Total identified benefit expenditure £ million 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11

Real terms (2010-11 prices) (a) Gloucester 185 191 198 214 197 (b) South West 10,820 11,290 11,796 12,761 12,902 (c) England 108,144 112,056 116,070 125,376 126,382 Notes: 1. “Gloucester” is defined as the parliamentary constituency, not Gloucester city council area. 2. All figures include expenditure for the following benefits: attendance allowance, bereavement benefits, carer’s allowance, disability living allowance, employment and support allowance, incapacity benefit, income support, jobseeker’s allowance, pension credit, severe disablement allowance, state pension, winter fuel payments. This covers approximately 80% of all DWP benefit expenditure; information on the remaining benefits is not available at constituency level. 3. Figures for the south-west and England also include: council tax benefit, housing benefits, industrial injuries benefits, maternity allowance, statutory maternity pay, and Over 75 TV licences. In total, this represents around 99% of all DWP benefit expenditure. 4. Figures rounded to nearest £ million. Source: DWP Statistical and Accounting data, and local authority subsidy returns

This information can be found on the Department conditions on recordings, and does not have any legal for Work and Pensions website at: obligation to provide recording equipment. http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd4/ While Atos will do all that they can to accommodate index.php?page=expenditure requests for audio recording, there may be times when this service cannot be offered, for example, where it has Social Security Benefits: Married People not been possible to get access to recording equipment on the date/time of the WCA. In these circumstances, Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of claimants will be told in advance that their request State for Work and Pensions if he will take steps to cannot be accommodated. Currently, appointments may provide that spousal benefits paid in respect of a be deferred for up to four weeks for any circumstance, benefit recipient are payable to no more than one wife including the non-availability of recording equipment. at any one time; and if he will make a statement. [119693] Work Programme

Mr Hoban: The Government has decided that universal Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Work credit will not recognise polygamous marriages. As and Pensions if he will estimate the average cost to the universal credit is to be introduced from 2013 and will public purse of a successful Work programme replace means tested benefits for working age people applicant to date. [118930] there are no plans to change current rules. There are no plans to change pension credit which Mr Hoban: The Department has not yet developed only provides for polygamous marriages where the marriage an estimate of the cost to the public purse of a successful was contracted in a country where polygamy was legal Work programme applicant this is because the programme when the parties concerned were domiciled there. is still in its early days and the Department has not yet made public adequate information required to estimate these costs. Under its obligation under the transparency Work Capability Assessment agenda the Department is making these costs publicly available by 13 November 2012. Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Work The Department will also consider whether it is feasible and Pensions how many work capability assessments to produce the statistics requested within the Atos completed per week in the latest period for which disproportionate cost limit ahead of their publication figures are available. [118585] under the transparency agenda, and if so, will issue them in an official statistics release in accordance with Mr Hoban: The information requested is not available. the Code of Practice for Official Statistics.

Work Capability Assessment: Birkenhead Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what percentage increase was Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for accounted for by the introduction of a cumulative job Work and Pensions if he will provide a guarantee that outcome target when calculating the minimum any benefit claimant in Birkenhead asking for their performance level for the Work programme. [120545] work capability assessment interview with ATOS to be recorded shall be recorded. [120561] Mr Hoban: The minimum performance level set for Work programme providers in respect of some of their Mr Hoban: Benefit claimants in Birkenhead can request payment groups was calculated as a 10% uplift in the their Work Capability Assessment with Atos Healthcare number of job outcomes achieved compared to an to be audio recorded or can ask to record it themselves estimated of the non-intervention level of performance. and all requests will be accommodated where possible. The non intervention level was calculated by the However, DWP has the right to impose reasonable Department based on analysis of historical job entry 181W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 182W rates, with deductions made for the estimated impact of Rachel Reeves: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister previous employment programmes in operation during what the cost was of the Boundary Commission’s the period analysed (which did not include the Flexible consultation hearings in (a) the Liberty Stadium, New Deal). Swansea and (b) the Millennium Stadium, Cardiff. Work programme job outcome targets are designed [119945] so that providers have an incentive to help people to spend longer in employment than under previous Miss Chloe Smith: The cost to the Boundary Commission programmes; meaning that performance levels are not for Wales of the public hearings in (a) the Liberty directly comparable with those programmes. stadium, Swansea and (b) the Millennium stadium, Cardiff were as follows: Work Programme: Harrogate (a) the Liberty stadium, Swansea: £15,053.13 (b) the Millennium stadium, Cardiff: £12,354,03. Andrew Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Work Experience: Social Mobility and Pensions how many people from Harrogate and Knaresborough constituency have (a) volunteered and Hazel Blears: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister (b) been required to take part in the Work programme what assessment he has made of the effect of unpaid in the last 12 months. [120406] internships on social mobility. [120183]

Mr Hoban: The number of Work programme referrals Mr Willetts: I have been asked to reply on behalf of in the last 12 months for which figures are available the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. (1 June 2011 to 30 April 2012) are shown in the following table: The Government appointed Alan Milburn as Independent Reviewer on Social Mobility and Child Referral type Poverty. In that role he has provided evidence on the range of barriers that restrict social mobility. His progress Parliamentary constituency Total Mandatory Voluntary report on Access to the Professions (published in May 2012) concludes that that unpaid internships can present Harrogate and 520 510 10 a barrier to those from less affluent backgrounds progressing Knaresborough and that internships are increasingly important to finding Notes: employment. 1. Figures are cumulative and rounded to the nearest 10. 2. Referrals shown are ‘net’ referrals which do not include rejections, Alan Millburn’s report welcomed the Government’s cancellations or referrals to ESA information sessions. position that employers should pay interns a wage that 3. Geographies are at the time of referral. reflects the value of their contribution. High quality 4. Customer groups are assigned by Jobcentre Plus, on the basis of a internships offer many benefits to employers and interns. claimant’s circumstances, and benefit they receive. A small number of claimants appear in an incorrect group caused by the way information Government believes that fair access to such opportunities is recorded on the administrative system. is paramount. We want to make as many high quality 5. Mandatory referrals are classified as referrals to the following internship opportunities as possible available to talented customer groups: JSA 18-24, JSA 25+, JSA NEET, JSA claiming young people from all backgrounds. This means avoiding 22 of 24 months, JSA ExIB, ESA (IR) WRAG 3/6 month Mandatory, unfair and restrictive practices and poor quality internships ESA (IR) WRAG 3/6 month Mandatory ExIB and JSA Ex-offender Day 1 Mandation. More detailed information can be found at: that exploit young people. http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/wp-pg-chapter-2.pdf We have updated our guidance on the payment of Source: work experience and interns to ensure that individuals DWP Information, Governance and Security Directorate (IGS) and employers are clear about their rights and responsibilities. We will ensure that enforcement of the minimum wage continues to be effective and that resources are focused on where they will have maximum impact. DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER We also endorse the ‘Common Best Practice Code for High Quality Internships’, published by the Gateways Constituencies to the Professions Collaborative Forum, which we believe will help improve access to the professions for young Joan Walley: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister people from all backgrounds. what estimate he has made of the costs incurred so far The BIS sponsored Graduate Talent Pool has provided on the parliamentary constituency boundary proposed 49,000 internship opportunities to date. Improved quality changes; what estimate he has made of the likely cost assurance processes have ensured that in recent months, of the remaining proceedings connected with the unpaid and expenses only vacancies represent between publication of the revised proposals to be published on 2% and 5% of vacancies. 16 October 2012; and if he will make a statement. [119561]

Miss Chloe Smith: We estimated that the cost of the CABINET OFFICE boundary review would be £11.9 million. The four Boundary Commissions have spent around £5.6 million Prisoners: Voting Rights up to the end of July 2012 on the boundary review and related purposes; they expect to spend around £4 million Mark Pritchard: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet from August 2012 to the end of the review. A significant Office when he expects to introduce votes for prisoners; portion of that sum has already been committed. and if he will make a statement. [119472] 183W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 184W

Miss Chloe Smith: The Government will consider mis-sold payment protection insurance (PP1). Specific carefully the recent judgment on prisoner voting in the steps include a comprehensive programme of audits of case of Scoppola v. Italy (No. 3) and its implications for companies to bring them to compliance and enforcement the UK and will respond in due course. action against those which fail to remedy failings. Private Sector: Yorkshire and the Humber The CMR Unit is working with the Financial Ombudsman Service, the British Bankers Association and directly with many of the major lenders to gather Andrew Percy: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet the evidence needed to target investigations and inform Office what the net change in private sector jobs was in new specific guidance on standards which claims companies the Humber region from May 2010 to the latest period must follow when handling PPI claims. This includes for which figures are available. [120568] the development of improved information for consumers.

Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the Community Orders: Yorkshire and the Humber responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. Andrew Percy: To ask the Secretary of State for Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated September 2012: Justice how many community payback schemes have As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I taken place in Brigg and Goole constituency in each of have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question the last five years. [120566] of what the net change in private sector jobs was in the Humber region from May 2010 to the latest period for which figures are available (120568). Jeremy Wright: The Community Payback Scheme is currently delivered by 35 probation trusts covering England Private sector employment estimates are produced using official quarterly (March, June, September, December) public sector and Wales. The number of Community Payback work employment estimates and total employment estimates from the projects undertaken by each probation trust is not Labour Force Survey. Estimates for interim months are unavailable. recorded by the National Offender Management Service The latest available estimates are currently for March 2012. (NOMS). Humberside Probation Trust has been able Estimates are available for Yorkshire and The Humber combined. to provide data for the period from 1 August 2011 to Estimates are not available for the Humber region excluding 31 July 2012. During this period a total of 130 offenders Yorkshire. with a Brigg or Goole address undertook Community Estimates of private sector employment for Yorkshire and The Payback. They worked on 31 work projects and Humber are: 10,491 hours were worked. A snapshot survey of Community Payback undertaken by NOMS during Headcount (thousands), not March 2011 showed that approaching 5,000 individual seasonally adjusted Community Payback work projects are operated each June 2010 1,840 month across England and Wales. March 2012 1,840 Coroners Net change 0 Further information is available at Joseph Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/guide-method/method-quality/ Justice (1) what the average length of time taken for quality/quality-information/business-statistics/quality-and- the completion of coroner inquests was in (a) 2009, methodology-information-for-public-sector-employment-- (b) 2010 and (c) 2011; [119427] pse-.pd (2) what steps he is taking to reduce the length of time taken for the completion of coroner inquests; [119428] JUSTICE (3) what effect he expects the appointment of a chief Anti-slavery Day coroner will have on the time taken to complete coroner inquests. [119429] Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what plans he has to mark Anti-Slavery Day on Mrs Grant: The estimated average time taken by coroners to complete inquests in 2009. 2010 and 2011 18 October 2012. [120101] was 27 weeks. The Ministry of Justice collects statistical Mrs Grant: The Government is committed to marking information on the length of inquests in aggregate form Anti-Slavery Day. Plans are still being considered and by asking coroners to state the number of inquests will be announced in due course. completed within specified time bands. The latest published National Statistics on the work of coroners relates to Claims Management Services 2011 and is available on the Ministry of Justice website at: Andrew Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for http://www.justice.gov.uk/statistics/coroners-and-burials/ Justice what steps he is taking to prevent claims deaths management companies from exploiting claims of The Ministry of Justice is preparing to implement a mis-selling of personal protection insurance. [119526] number of measures in the Coroners and Justice Act 2009 that will help to reduce the length of time taken to Mrs Grant: The Department’s Claims Management complete coroner investigations. In particular, coroners Regulation (CMR) Unit has established a specialist will be required to notify the Chief Coroner of any compliance team to tackle bad practices used by some investigation that lasts more than 12 months. The Chief claims management companies dealing with claims for Coroner will be required to keep a register of such 185W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 186W notifications and to report annually to the Lord Chancellor sentence, (iii) a young offender institution, (iv) a community on the number and length of these investigations, the order, (v) a fine and (vi) another non-custodial sentence reasons for delays and the measures taken to prevent in each of the last five years; [118734] delays from becoming unnecessarily lengthy. This will (2) if he will undertake a comparative analysis of bring about a much greater focus on the length of, and sentences received by individuals convicted of causing reasons for, delays within the system and put pressure the deaths of cyclists and those convicted of causing on coroners to keep delays to a minimum. the deaths of other road users; and if he will make a The Ministry intends to bring these measures into statement. [118735] force as soon as practicable. Jeremy Wright: The number of persons found guilty at all courts, by sentence breakdown, for causing death by careless driving and by dangerous driving in England Driving Offences and Wales, from 2007 to 2011 can be viewed in the tables. Mr Bradshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for Other than where specified in a statute, information Justice (1) how many individuals were convicted of held centrally does not include all the circumstances of (a) causing death by careless driving and (b) causing each case. It is not possible to identify from data held death by dangerous driving and sentenced to (i) an centrally on criminal motoring offences whether the unsuspended sentence of imprisonment, (ii) a suspended victim was a cyclist.

Persons found guilty at all courts, by sentence breakdown, for causing death by careless driving and by dangerous driving, England and Wales, 2007-111, 2 2007 Of Of which: Found Total Immediate which: Suspended Community Community Other Offence description guilty sentenced custody YOI sentences sentence order Fine sentences4

4.6 Causing Death 67 67 65 10 1 — — 1 — by Careless Driving when under the influence of Drink or Drugs 4.4 Causing Death 233 233 214 38 14 1 1 3 1 by Dangerous Driving

2008 Of Of which: Found Total Immediate which: Suspended Community Community Other Offence description guilty sentenced custody YOI sentences sentence order Fine sentences4

4.6 Causing Death 46 46 45 4 1 — — — — by Careless Driving when under the influence of Drink or Drugs 4.8 Causing Death 44—————4— by careless or inconsiderate driving3 4.4 Causing Death 221 221 206 29 9 2 2 3 1 by Dangerous Driving

2009 Of Of which: Found Total Immediate which: Suspended Community Community Other Offence description guilty sentenced5 custody YOI sentences sentence order Fine sentences4

4.6 Causing Death 35 35 33 6 2 — — — — by Careless Driving when under the influence of Drink or Drugs

4.8 Causing Death 81 73 3 — 14 49 49 5 2 by careless or inconsiderate driving3 4.4 Causing Death 225 233 218 46 14 — — — 1 by Dangerous Driving 187W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 188W

2010 Of Of which: Found Total Immediate which: Suspended Community Community Other Offence description guilty sentenced5 custody YOI sentences sentence order Fine sentences4

4.6 Causing Death 41 41 40 6 1 — — — — by Careless Driving when under the influence of Drink or Drugs 4.8 Causing Death 238 236 45 12 56 122 121 6 7 by careless or inconsiderate driving3 4.4 Causing Death 154 158 140 26 11 4 3 1 2 by Dangerous Driving

2011 Of Of which: Found Total Immediate which: Suspended Community Community Other Offence description guilty sentenced5 custody YOI sentences sentence order Fine sentences4

4.6 Causing Death 35 35 35 5 — — — — — by Careless Driving when under the influence of Drink or Drugs 4.8 Causing Death 234 231 46 3 60 109 108 11 5 by careless or inconsiderate driving3 4.4 Causing Death 114 115 110 24 4 1 1 — — by Dangerous Driving 1 The figures given in the table relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. 3 Road Traffic Act 1988 added by Road Safety Act 2006, S.2B—Came in to force in August 2008 4 Includes: Absolute and Conditional Discharge and Otherwise dealt with. 5 The number of offenders sentenced can differ from those found guilty as it may be the case that a defendant found guilty in a particular year, and committed for sentence at the Crown court, may be sentenced in the following year. Source: Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice

Fines Damian Green: Information held centrally on the Ministry of Justice Court Proceedings Database does John Glen: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice not include the circumstances behind each case beyond how many fines levied by HM Courts and Tribunals the description provided in the statute. It is not possible Service have been paid in full or in part by an unpaid to separately identify from this centrally held information work order since 1 September 2004. [119520] those specific offences related to credit card and mortgage Mrs Grant: Although schedule 6 of the Courts Act fraud from other offences of fraud and theft. 2003 sets provisions for the use of unpaid work orders Proceedings for offences of credit card fraud may be as a sanction for fine defaulters this sanction is not initiated under the Fraud Act 2006. However, credit actually used as a method of fine enforcement. The card fraud may be included as part of a more serious sanction was initially piloted in some local justice areas crime such as. for example, money laundering. Mortgage but due to difficulties in administering the scheme it fraud includes offences that involve deceiving a lender was not implemented. It is not possible to identify the about an aspect of a secured property loan in order to number of fines where these orders were imposed without obtain that loan and may be initiated under the Fraud carrying out a manual search of all the fine accounts in Act 2006 or if the proceedings predate January 2007 the pilot areas which would incur disproportionate under section 15 of the Theft Act 1968. costs. The number of defendants proceeded against at magistrates courts and found guilty at all courts under Fraud the Fraud Act 2006 and Theft Act 1968 Section 15 in England and Wales from 2002 to 2011 can be viewed in John Pugh: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice the tables. how many convictions there were for (a) credit card fraud and (b) mortgage fraud in each of the last 10 years. Charging data are not collated centrally by the Ministry [119486] of Justice. 189W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 190W

Number of defendants proceeded against at magistrates courts and found guilty at all courts under the Fraud Act 2006 and Theft Act 1968 Section 15, England and Wales, 2002 to 20111,2 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 Proceeded Found Proceeded Found Proceeded Found Proceeded Found Proceeded Found against guilty against guilty against guilty against guilty against guilty

Fraud Act 20064 —5 —5 —5 —5 —5 —5 —5 —5 —5 —5 Theft Act 1968, 12,770 9,354 11,497 8,457 9,824 7,519 8,196 6,472 6,311 5,080 Section 156 Total 12,770 9,354 11,497 8,457 9,824 7,519 8,196 6,472 6,311 5,080

2007 20083 2009 2010 2011 Proceeded Found Proceeded Found Proceeded Found Proceeded Found Proceeded Found against guilty against guilty against guilty against guilty against guilty

Fraud Act 20064 4,033 3,150 7,074 5,620 10,434 8,133 11,588 9,030 11,156 8,975 Theft Act 1968, 3,300 2,470 749 678 333 234 284 200 180 114 Section 156 Total 7,333 5,620 7,823 6,298 10,767 8,367 11,872 9,230 11,336 9,089 1 The figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. 3 Excludes data for Cardiff magistrates court for April, July and August 2008. 4 Came into force in January 2007. 5 Not applicable. 6 Includes offences of obtaining, attempting to obtain, and conspiring to obtain, property by deception. Source: Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice.

Fraud: Social Security Benefits 3 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have Andrew Percy: To ask the Secretary of State for been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken Justice how many non-UK nationals from each to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are country have been successfully prosecuted for benefit taken into account when those data are used. fraud in each of the last five years. [120279] Source: Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice. Damian Green: The Ministry of Justice Court Proceedings Database holds information on defendants Juries: Illegal Immigrants proceeded against, found guilty and sentenced for criminal offences in England and Wales. This centrally held court proceedings data does not includes a defendant’s Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for nationality. Justice what steps his Department has taken to ensure those selected for jury service are not in the UK illegally. [119464] Human Trafficking

David Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mrs Grant: Jurors are randomly selected from electoral Justice how many people were convicted in relation to registers compiled by local government. people trafficking in the last two years. [120313] The Crown court carries out checks on all jurors on their first day of service at the court to ensure that the Damian Green: The number of defendants found person attending is the person that was summonsed. guilty at all courts, on a principal offence basis, for For European Economic Area Nationals a full EEA human trafficking offences, in England and Wales in passport or National Identity Card needs to be produced. 2010 and 2011 can be viewed in the following table. For other nationals a full passport or a Home Office Number of defendants found guilty at all courts for human trafficking document confirming the individual’s UK immigration offences1, England and Wales, 2010 and 20112, 3 status must be produced. Number of defendants

2010 16 Mesothelioma: Compensation 2011 8 1 Includes offences under: Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for Asylum and Immigration (Treatment of Claimants etc) Act 2004: Justice what the timescale is for the introduction of the Sexual offences Act 2003. 2 The figures given in the table relate to persons for whom these procedure to compensate mesothelioma sufferers set offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. out in the publication of the detailed support scheme When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is on 25 July 2012. [120249] the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most Mr Hoban: I have been asked to reply on behalf of severe. the Department for Work and Pensions. 191W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 192W

We propose to bring forward legislation enabling a Perjury payment scheme to be established for people diagnosed with diffuse mesothelioma as a result of their negligent Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for exposure to asbestos at work, and who are unable to Justice how many people have been convicted for trace their liable employer or insurer to claim against, as providing false information under section 20 of the soon as parliamentary time allows. Juries Act 1974 in the last five years. [119704] In recognition of the time taken to introduce new legislation, we intend that eligible claimants diagnosed Damian Green: Persons proceeded against and convicted with diffuse mesothelioma on or after 25 July 2012 for offences under the Juries Act 1974 cannot be separately should be able to claim once the scheme becomes identified on the Ministry of Justice Court Proceedings operational. Database as they form part of a miscellaneous group which cannot be separately analysed.

Prison Accommodation Olympic Games 2012: Touting James Wharton: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (1) what change there has been in the number of Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for (a) vacant and (b) occupied prison places since May Justice (1) how many people were convicted for illegally 2010; [119433] reselling tickets for the London 2012 Olympic and (2) what estimate he has made of the likely change in Paralympic Games in each month of 2012; and what the total number of prison places by May 2015; the average fine levied was for such convictions; [119434] [120060] (3) how many (a) complete prisons and (b) prisons (2) how many applications for convictions have been under construction there were (i) in May 2010 and (ii) made for people suspected of illegally reselling tickets on 31 August 2012; and how many prisons in each such for the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games category he estimates there will be in May 2015. outside the UK; [120062] [119435] (3) how many people have been convicted of illegally reselling tickets for the London 2012 Olympic and Jeremy Wright: Information on the number of vacant Paralympic Games outside the UK; [120063] and occupied prison places is set out in the following table. This information is published on the MOJ website (4) how many convictions for illegally reselling via the following weblink. tickets for the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/statistics-and-data/ Games were subjected to an application for further prisons-and-probation/prison-population-figures/index.htm fines under the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002; and what the (a) average and (b) total amount collected was. Vacant places [120061] Published (useable Published occupied operational useable prison places capacity less Damian Green: On 28 August 2012 the Ministry of operational (total prison total prison Justice published “Provisional management information capacity population) population) on Olympic related criminal proceedings”. 28 May 2010 87.757 85.147 2.610 This publication provides provisional management 31 August 2012 90.897 86.708 4.189 information for all Olympic related criminal proceedings Difference +3.140 +1.561 +1.579 currently going through criminal courts and the number Note: of proceedings which have been fast tracked. The report These figures have been drawn from administrative IT systems, is available on the ministry’s website at: which, as with any large scale recording system, are subject to possible error with data entry and processing. http://www.justice.gov.uk/downloads/statistics/ad-hoc/ provisional-olympic-stats.pdf. In May 2010 the Prison Estate was a total of 136 prisons including NOMS Operated Immigration Removal Centres. To enable timely reporting of information on offences Two further prisons (HMP Oakwood and HMP Thameside related to the London 2012 Olympics and Paralympics were under construction. In August 2012 the Prison a limited amount of data has been collated. Estate was 134 prisons including NOMS Operated It is therefore not possible to provide the additional Immigration Removal Centres. There were no additional information requested. prisons under construction. Regarding the information requested concerning the Decisions on the future size and configuration of the illegal resale of tickets for the London 2012 Olympic prison estate will relied the current and projected prison and Paralympic games outside the United Kingdom, population, including an assessment of the necessary the Ministry of Justice holds statistical data relating to margin to manage population fluctuations. those prosecuted in courts in England and Wales, however information is not collated centrally on the particulars Prisoners of an offence other than where specified in statute. This information could be obtained only by manually inspecting Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for each court file for the particulars of the case at Justice (a) how many mobile telephones and (b) what disproportionate cost. quantity of drugs were seized from prisoners in each Therefore, we are unable to provide this information. prison in each of the last two years. [119697] 193W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 194W

Jeremy Wright: The following table shows the number Prison Number of finds of finds of mobile phones or SIM cards found on prisoners and young offenders in each prison in each of Hewell 65 the last two years. One find could constitute a phone High Down 60 only, a SIM card only, or a mobile phone with one SIM Highpoint 20 card or a media stick/memory card. Hindley 2 Hollesley Bay 40 Prison Number of finds Holloway 8 September 2010 to August 2011 Holme House 17 Acklington 29 Hull 11 Albany 2 Huntercombe 26 Altcourse 265 Isis 20 Ashwell 2 Kennet 5 Aylesbury 103 Kirkham 68 Bedford 30 Kirklevington Grange 2 Belmarsh S Lancaster Castle 5 Birmingham 91 Lancaster Farms 65 Blantyre House 1 Latchmere House 10 Blundeston 7 Leeds 53 Brinsford 6 Leicester 26 Bristol 22 Lewes 29 Brixton 57 Leyhill 23 Bronzefield 8 Lincoln 22 Buckley Hall 15 Lindholme 72 Bullingdon 19 Littlehey 28 Bullwood Hall 3 Liverpool 127 Camp Hill 81 Long Lartin 3 Canterbury 11 Low Newton 1 Cardiff 14 Lowdham Grange 19 Castington 4 Maidstone 20 Channings Wood 65 Manchester 41 Chelmsford 21 Moorland 7 Coldingley 44 Moorlands 21 Cookham Wood 2 Morton Hall 1 Dartmoor 14 Mount 89 Deerbolt 6 North Sea Camp 22 Doncaster 5 Northallerton 2 Dorchester 15 Norwich 8 Dovegate 9 Nottingham 22 Dover 25 Onley 74 Downview 2 Parc 29 Drake Hall 1 Parkhurst 4 Durham 7 Pentonville 231 East Sutton Park 6 Peterborough 96 Eastwood Park 3 Portland 4 Edmunds Hill 19 Preston 10 Elmley 46 Ranby 79 Erlestoke 75 Reading 5 Risley 43 Everthorpe 32 Rochester 2 Exeter 23 Rye Hill 47 Featherstone 33 Send 1 Feltham 63 Shepton Mallet 6 Ford 31 Springhill 1 Forest Bank 45 Stafford 49 Frankland 5 Standford Hill 47 Full Sutton 3 Stocken 10 Garth 30 Styal 6 Gartree 4 Sudbury 31 Glen Parva 2 Swaleside 56 Gloucester 2 Swinfen Hall 44 Grendon and Spring Hill 2 Thorn Cross 46 Guys Marsh 90 Usk 1 Haverigg 43 Verne 57 195W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 196W

Prison Number of finds Prison Number of finds

Wandsworth 119 Full Sutton 8 Warren Hill 4 Garth 10 Wayland 34 Gartree 15 Wealstun 76 Glen Parva S Wellingborough 131 Gloucester 3 Werrington House 4 Guys Marsh 116 Wetherby 2 Hatfield 5 Whitemoor 8 Haverigg 52 Winchester 21 Hewell 205 Wolds 120 High Down 36 Woodhill 3 Highpoint 94 Wormwood Scrubs 100 Hindley 2 Wymott 22 Hollesley Bay 14 Holloway 6 September 2011 to August 2012 Holme House 9 Acklington 11 Hull 9 Albany 1 Huntercombe 9 Altcourse 181 Isis 43 Ashfield 2 Kennet 8 Ashwell Kirkham 68 Kirklevington Grange 15 Askham Grange t Lancaster Farms 19 Aylesbury 15 Leeds 28 Bedford 26 Leicester 9 Belmarsh 4 Lewes 17 Birmingham 116 Leyhill 7 Blantyre House 4 Lincoln 8 Blundeston 7 Lindholme 71 Brinsford 50 Littlehey 14 Bristol 8 Liverpool 67 Brixton 2i Long Lartin 2 Bronzefield 3 Low Newton 2 Buckley Hall 32 Lowdham Grange 13 Bullingdon 5 Maidstone 31 Bullwood Hall 5 Manchester 14 Camp Hill 29 Moorland 10 Canterbury 8 Moorlands 6 Cardiff 13 Morton Hall 7 Castington 3 Mount 87 Channings Wood 15 North Sea Camp 34 Chelmsford 15 Northallerton 2 Coldingley 26 Northumberland 100 Cookham Wood 1 Norwich 4 Dartmoor 5 Nottingham 17 Deerbolt 7 Onley 19 Doncaster 6 Parc 34 Dorchester 12 Parkhurst 6 Dovegate 21 Pentonville 95 Dover 9 Peterborough 49 Drake Hall 1 Portland 3 Durham 52 Prescoed 1 East Sutton Park 2 Preston 13 Eastwood Park 2 Ranby 67 Elmley 28 Reading 16 Erlestoke 117 Risley 8 Everthorpe 22 Rochester 5 Exeter 5 Rye Hill 56 Featherstone 51 Send 1 Feltham 37 Springhill 5 Ford 34 Stafford 17 Forest Bank 40 Standford Hill 26 Frankland 4 Stocken 19 197W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 198W

Prison Number of finds September 2010 to September 2011 to Establishment August 2011 August 2012 Stoke Heath 27 Styal 7 Bure 2 0 Sudbury 47 Camp Hill 10 20 Swaleside 55 Canterbury 2 6 Swinfen Hall 17 Cardiff 37 33 Thameside I Castington 26 60 Thorn Cross 44 Channings Wood 32 31 Verne 93 Chelmsford 30 57 Wakefield 2 Coldingley 5 4 Wandsworth 104 Cookham Wood 0 0 Warren Hill 2 Dartmoor 11 8 Wayland 12 Deerbolt 22 24 Wealstun 88 Doncaster 41 128 Wellingborough 60 Dorchester 22 35 Werrington House 3 Dovegate 116 171 Wetherby 2 Dover Immigration 26 20 Whitemoor 3 Downview 3 1 Winchester 3 Drake Hall 7 6 Wolds 38 Durham 76 123 Woodhill 11 East Sutton Park 0 0 Wormwood Scrubs 73 Eastwood Park 0 2 Wymott 16 Edmunds Hill 12 0 Elmley 62 70 The following table shows the total number of drug Erlestoke 34 66 and drug taking paraphernalia seizures made in each Everthorpe 43 32 prison in each of the past two years. It includes seizures Exeter 76 64 from prisoners, from other persons and seizures which Featherstone 26 65 are not attributable to a person. This is because the Feltham 9 18 number of drug seizures in prisons is recorded on a Ford 144 165 central database which does not record from whom the Forest Bank 228 230 seizure was made or if the seizure was not attributable Foston Hall 0 2 to a person. To establish which of the seizures were Frankland 13 13 from prisoners would involve an investigation into each Full Sutton 9 9 seizure which would incur disproportionate cost. Garth 46 68 It is important to note that many drugs are similar in Gartree 3 11 appearance and in many cases finds of drugs are not Glen Parva 13 17 categorically identified by scientific analysis. Some will Gloucester 15 14 have been identified using indicative reagent or Marquis Grendon 0 0 tests. Many will have been identified by appearance Guys Marsh 35 39 only. Haslar Immigration 1 2 Hatfield 2 0 September 2010 to September 2011 to Haverigg 47 73 Establishment August 2011 August 2012 Highdown 13 4 Acklington 47 19 Highpoint 43 98 Albany 0 0 Hindley 8 4 Altcourse 301 213 Hewell 89 139 Ashfield 1 2 Hollesley Bay 0 1 Ashwell 1 0 Holloway 5 4 Askham Grange 0 0 Holme House 79 77 Aylesbury 15 6 Hull 3 11 Bedford 15 10 Huntercombe I I Belmarsh 12 10 Isis 3 11 Birmingham 2 25 Kennet 10 16 Blantyre House 0 1 Kingston 0 0 Blundeston 0 0 Kirkham 169 179 Brinsford 4 26 Kirklevington 31 71 Bristol 30 29 Grange Brixton 36 15 Lancaster Castle 3 0 Bronzefield 37 31 Lancaster Farms 6 2 Buckley Hall 57 136 Latchmere House 3 0 Bullingdon 48 34 Leeds 26 51 Bullwood Hall 0 2 Leicester 73 33 199W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 200W

September 2010 to September 2011 to September 2010 to September 2011 to Establishment August 2011 August 2012 Establishment August 2011 August 2012

Lewes 27 39 Wetherby 33 10 Leyhill 66 41 Whatton 0 0 Lincoln 34 22 Whitemoor 1 2 Lindholme 40 33 Winchester 1 2 Littlehey 0 1 Wolds 72 51 Liverpool 13 10 Woodhill 1 0 Long Lartin 2 2 Wormwood Scrubs 52 32 Lowdham Grange 68 109 Wymott 12 13 Low Newton 61 62 Maidstone 2 2 All figures in this answer have been drawn from live Manchester 95 $5 administrative data systems which may be amended at Moorland Closed 16 15 any time. Although care is taken when processing and Morton Hall 430analysing the returns, the detail collected is subject to Immigration the inaccuracies inherent in any large scale recording New Hall 2 5 system. The data are not subject to audit. Northallerton 6 10 North Sea Camp 91 36 Prisoners’ Discharge Grants Northumberland 0 68 Norwich 1 20 Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Nottingham 68 83 Justice what the maximum number of times is that a person eligible to receive a discharge grant from prison Oakwood 0 3 has received such a grant in each of the last two years. Onley 72 67 [119688] Parc 53 72 Parkhurst 1 2 Jeremy Wright: National Offender Management Service Pentonville 97 66 policy guidance for the payment to prisoners of discharge Peterborough 931grants can be found at annex B of Prison Service Female Instruction 72/2011—Discharge, a copy of which is Peterborough 55 47 available in the House of Commons Library. This states Portland 14 5 that all eligible prisoners aged 18 or over who have Prescoed 0 1 served more than 14 days in custody after receiving a Preston 79 94 custodial sentence must on release be given a discharge Ranby 11 16 grant of £46 unless certain exclusions apply. Reading 1 0 These exclusions include those sentenced prisoners Risley 42 44 who have served 14 days or less in custody since the date Rochester 5 1 of sentence, those awaiting deportation or removal Rye Hill 44 49 from the United Kingdom and those recalled from Send 0 0 licence to prison for a period of 14 days or less. It is not Shepton Mallett 4 1 possible to produce a breakdown of the prisoners who Shrewsbury 1 0 have received such a grant in each of the last two years Spring Hill 3 0 or how many times each prisoner has received a discharge Stafford 38 49 grant as this information is not recorded centrally. Standford Hill 65 44 Prisons: Television Stocken 28 6 Stoke Heath 4 16 Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Styal 2 5 Justice what estimate he has made of the number of Sudbury 199 235 prisoners who have access to Sky TV in their prison Swaleside 83 32 cells. [119695] Swansea 0 2 Jeremy Wright: ″Sky TV″ where this refers to a service Swinfen Hall 8 7 received from British Sky Broadcasting in return for a Thameside 0 7 subscription is not available in-cell in public sector The Mount 69 56 prisons. The Verne 19 28 As part of the recent digital switchover each eligible Thorn Cross 6 2 prisoner, located in a public sector prison, has access to Usk 0 0 nine free-to-view channels in-cell. These are BBC1, Wakefield 1 0 BBC2, ITV1, Channel 4, Channel 5, Sky News Sport Wandsworth 8 7 (E4 in female prisons), ITV3, VIVAand Film 4. Governors Warren Hill 5 I have discretion to change any of these channels to other Wayland 15 12 free-to-view channels locally, but will be responsible for Wealstun 4 4 any costs incurred and only free-to-view channels may Wellingborough 9 7 be provided. It is the governor’s responsibility to ensure that any channel chosen is suitable for viewing with Werrington 0 0 regard to the population of their prison. 201W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 202W

Prisoners’ access to in-cell television is dependent on Sexual Offences: Lie Detectors their status under the Prison Service’s Incentives and Earned Privileges Scheme (Prison Service Instruction 11/ Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for 2011 refers, a copy of which is available in the House of Justice what assessment his Department has made of Commons Library). Information relating to the number the accuracy of the lie detector test used on sex of prisoners who have access to specific television channels offenders. [119696] is not available centrally and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost. Jeremy Wright: The polygraph, which is often described Information about the number of prisoners held in as a ″lie detector″, measures arousal associated with contracted-out prisons who may have access to Sky physiological changes of the autonomic nervous system. television in their cells is not immediately available. I It is not a detector of lies as such but measures physiological will write to my hon. Friend with this information as arousal hypothesised to be the product of deception (ie soon as it is available, and will place a copy in the House respiration, cardiovascular and sweat responses). Library. Although current evidence suggests that a polygraph test cannot be relied upon to achieve 100% accuracy, the National Research Council (NRC) review1 concluded Sexual Harassment: Employment Tribunals Service that, in the absence of countermeasures (attempts to interfere with the polygraph test), there was evidence Stella Creasy: To ask the Secretary of State for that, for assessing specific historical incidents, the polygraph Justice how many employment tribunals involving can obtain levels of accuracy which are well above allegations of harassment at work of a sexual nature chance (typically 80-90%). were (a) heard and (b) upheld in each of the last five In accordance with the provisions of sections 28 and years. [120552] 29 of the Offender Management Act 2007 (the 2007 Act), the National Offender Management Service conducted Mrs Grant: Information on the number of employment a pilot of mandatory polygraph testing for sexual offenders tribunal complaints involving allegations of sexual released on licence into the East and West Midlands harassment is not held centrally. It could be collated regions from 19 January 2009 to 31 March 2012. Results only by trawling individual tribunal files manually. from polygraph testing were used in conjunction with Accordingly, it could be provided only at disproportionate other information to make decisions about managing cost. those sexual offenders. However, all complaints of sexual harassment would An independent evaluation of the pilots published on be categorised by HM Courts and Tribunals Service as 20 July 2012 concluded that polygraph testing increased falling within the wider sex discrimination jurisdiction. the chances that a sexual offender under supervision in Sexual harassment complaints are therefore a sub-set of the community will reveal information relevant to their sex discrimination complaints, as recorded in the statistics management, supervision, treatment, or risk assessment. published annually and quarterly by the Ministry of It also increased the likelihood of preventative actions Justice. being taken by Offender Managers to protect the public from harm. The following table shows the number of sex discrimination complaints disposed of at a hearing in The report is available via the link: each of the last five complete financial years. The data www.justice.gov.uk/publications/research-and-analysis/moj/ are broken down, showing the volume of complaints index.htm successful at final hearing, unsuccessful at final hearing, Under the 2007 Act, an affirmative resolution from and dismissed at a preliminary hearing—and the overall each House of Parliament is required before mandatory total, as well as the percentage of ‘successful’ complaints polygraph testing may become compulsory for sexual relative to the overall number of sex discrimination offenders outside the terms permitted under the pilot. complaints disposed of at a hearing. 1 National Research Council (2003). “The polygraph and lie detection”. Committee to Review the Scientific Evidence on the Complaints of sex discrimination disposed of at hearing by Polygraph. Washington. DC: The National Academic Press. employment tribunals in each of the last five financial years 2009- 2010- 2011- 2007-08 2008-09 010 011 012 Translation Services

Successful at 470 340 340 290 290 final hearing Mike Freer: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Unsuccessful 640 600 560 590 590 how many interpreters employed by Associated at final hearing Language Solutions have security clearance and police Dismissed at 200 210 180 200 190 counter-terrorist checks in place. [119583] preliminary hearing Jeremy Wright: Interpreters working in HM Courts Total heard 1,310 1,150 1,080 1,080 1,070 and Tribunals must be vetted to the minimum requirement Percentage of 35.88 29.57 31.48 26.85 27.10 of an Enhanced Criminal Record Bureau (CRB) check. total as In the course of a recent National Audit Office investigation, successful (%) it became clear that some interpreters on the ALS Source: Annual employment tribunal statistics. Employment tribunal register had not confirmed their CRB record status. disposals achieved otherwise than at a hearing are excluded. See The Department requires a full audit trail for security published statistical releases for further information: checks for all interpreters; therefore, those interpreters http://www.justice.gov.uk/statistics/tribunals who had not supplied documentation were removed 203W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 204W from the register until such time as an audit trail could Funding allocated to be provided. Interpreters with Enhanced CRB checks Victim Support in place were asked to provide further evidence of this; Total MOJ core services in North those without Enhanced CRB status submitted evidence grant (£ million) Yorkshire (£) to gain it. We will continue to scrutinise this closely to ensure contractual obligations are met. 2009-10 37 411,281 2010-11 45 364,193 Mike Freer: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice 2011-12 38 265,024 whether the contract between his Department and Applied Language Solutions specifies the number of The figures represent the direct costs of services interpreters that should have a Diploma in Public provided in North Yorkshire. We understand from Victim Service Interpreting Law or the Metropolitan Police Support that the drop in funding to North Yorkshire is Test. [120191] due to support services now being provided centrally and the Victim Care Unit now operating as a regional Mrs Grant: The Framework Agreement sets out a service based in West Yorkshire. number of acceptable qualifications, including the Diploma in Public Service Interpreting (English Law) and the Metropolitan Police Test. The Framework Agreement does not specify the number of interpreters that should have the Diploma or the Metropolitan Police Test. TREASURY Provided an interpreter is able to prove they possess the requisite qualifications and vetting, they are able to accept assignments under the Framework. Youth Unemployment

Unpaid Fines 16. Seema Malhotra: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what recent discussions he has had with ministerial colleagues on fiscal measures to reduce John Glen: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice long-term youth unemployment. [120149] pursuant to the answer of 17 July 2012, Official Report, column 543W, on unpaid fines, how many financial 17. Mr McCann: To ask the Chancellor of the penalties are outstanding; and how many of those are Exchequer what recent discussions he has had with (a) (b) being paid by deduction from benefits, being ministerial colleagues on fiscal measures to reduce paid by attachment of earnings and (c) designated as long-term youth unemployment. [120150] hard to trace in the latest period for which figures are available. [119572] 19. Kate Green: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what recent discussions he has had with Mrs Grant: There were approximately 1,680,000 fines ministerial colleagues on fiscal measures to reduce outstanding at the end of March 2012, the latest period long-term youth unemployment. [120152] for which data are available. Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service do not collect centrally the number Sajid Javid: The Youth Contract was launched in being paid by deduction from benefits, being paid by April to help support half a million young people into attachment of earnings or designated as hard to trace. employment. The Government remains committed to We could only obtain this information by manually implementation of this programme, and in July this inspecting each account which would incur disproportionate year amended eligibility criteria for wage incentives to costs. allow earlier access to subsidies for young people in 20 The Government takes the issue of fine enforcement local authority areas with high youth unemployment very seriously and HMCTS is working to ensure that levels. clamping down on fine defaulters is a continued priority In addition, the Work programme has been under nationwide. way since June, delivering personalised support to long-term and vulnerable jobseekers. So far, around 180,000 young Victim Support: North Yorkshire people have been supported through this programme.

Andrew Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what funding was provided to Victim Support European Investment Bank in North Yorkshire in each of the last three years. [119523] 18. Mark Reckless: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what contributions the UK (a) has made in Mrs Grant: Victim Support, the national charity for the last year and (b) will make in the next year to the victims and witnesses of crime, is principally funded European Investment Bank. [120151] through a central grant from the Ministry of Justice. It is independent of Government and is responsible for Greg Clark: The UK has made no contributions to the allocation of funding to its regional services. the European Investment Bank (EIB) in the past 12 months. The following table shows total grant funding provided Following the European Council held on 28-29 June, by the Ministry of Justice to Victim Support in each of the paid-in capital of the EIB is set to be increased by the last three years, and the amount subsequently allocated ¤10 billion. In line with its 16% shareholding, the UK by Victim Support to its services in North Yorkshire. will contribute ¤1.6 billion. 205W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 206W

Infrastructure Cost of Credit

20. Graham Evans: To ask the Chancellor of the 25. Neil Carmichael: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what assessment he has made of the effect Exchequer what steps the Government has taken to that investment in infrastructure will have on the reduce the cost of credit to the real economy. [120158] economy. [120153] Greg Clark: The Government and the Bank of England Danny Alexander: I would refer the hon. Member to have launched the Funding for Lending Scheme (FLS) the answer that the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave to to reduce funding costs for banks so that they can make the hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) today. loans cheaper and more easily available for households and non-financial businesses in the UK. In addition, 21. Glyn Davies: To ask the Chancellor of the 19,000 cheaper bank loans worth £2.6 billion have been Exchequer what recent steps he has taken to support offered to smaller businesses under the National Loan nationally important infrastructure projects. [120154] Guarantee Scheme, since its launch on 20 March this year. Danny Alexander: I would refer the hon. Member to the answer that the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave to Churchill Insurance the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney) today. Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what discussions he has had with the Royal 22. Paul Flynn: To ask the Chancellor of the Bank of Scotland and the Direct Line Group about the Exchequer what progress his Department has made on effect of the proposed closure of the Churchill call implementation of the national infrastructure plan centre in Thornaby-on-Tees on the Tees Valley 2011. [120155] sub-regional economy. [120434]

Danny Alexander: The Government is ensuring that Sajid Javid: The Government’s shareholding in the the infrastructure identified in the National Infrastructure Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS) is managed on a commercial Plan 2011 is delivered efficiently and on time. I chair a and arm’s length basis by UK Financial Investments Cabinet Sub-Committee on infrastructure to provide Ltd (UKFI), a company which is wholly owned by the leadership to this work. The Government has also Government. launched innovative schemes, such as UK Guarantees, UKFI’s overarching objective is to protect and create to kick start struggling infrastructure projects. value for the taxpayer as shareholder, with due regard An update on the progress of the priority infrastructure to financial stability and acting in a way that promotes investments was published alongside this year’s Budget competition. and the Treasury will be publishing a further progress As an engaged shareholder, UKFI works closely with update around the time of the autumn statement. the bank’s management to assure themselves of the bank’s approach to strategy and to hold management rigorously to account for performance. Household Expenditure However, UKFI’s role is to manage the investment, not to manage the bank—the bank retains its own 23. Gavin Barwell: To ask the Chancellor of the independent board and management team to manage Exchequer what steps he has taken to help households itself commercially without interference from shareholders. with their cost of living. [120156] The Government are therefore unable to comment on these matters. Danny Alexander: I would refer the hon. Member to the answer that I gave to the hon. Member for Gillingham Financial Services Compensation Scheme and Rainham (Rehman Chishti), earlier today. Annette Brooke: To ask the Chancellor of the Beer Duty Exchequer what representations he has received on the classification of financial services compensation scheme 24. Peter Aldous: To ask the Chancellor of the funding; and if he will make a statement. [120464] Exchequer what assessment he has made of the relative effect of progressive beer duty relief on breweries Greg Clark: Treasury Ministers and officials have seeking to maximise export opportunities. [120157] discussions with a wide variety of organisations in the public and private sectors as part of the process of Sajid Javid: Small Breweries Relief provides a tax policy development and delivery.It is not the Government’s relief worth £30 million to over 700 of the UK’s smallest practice to provide detail of such discussions. brewers. The relief helps to encourage investment in small breweries, promoting growth and increasing diversity Financial Services: Advisory Services in the beer market. The Government has made no assessment of the Annette Brooke: To ask the Chancellor of the effect that Small Breweries Relief may have on export Exchequer what representations he has received on the opportunities for small brewers. However, the Treasury burden of regulatory cost for Independent Financial keeps all taxes under review and is open to receiving any Advisers operating as a one person business; and if he evidence of the impact of the relief in this area. will make a statement. [120463] 207W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 208W

Sajid Javid: Treasury Ministers receive representations distance learning. We do not currently have data on from a wide variety of organisations in the public and how many were recruited from Birmingham or Ladywood private sectors as part of the process of policy development constituency specifically. and delivery.As was the case with previous Administrations, it is not the Government’s practice to provide details of Community Interest Companies all such representations. Financial Services Regulation is a matter for the Financial Services Authority, an independent non-governmental body. Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how many community interest companies there were in each (a) local Succession: EU Action authority area and (b) Parliamentary constituency in each year since 2006. [120045] Katy Clark: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what the Government’s policy is on the creation of a Jo Swinson: Companies House cannot provide a European Certificate of Succession. [118616] breakdown of community interest companies (CICs) by local authority area or parliamentary constituency Jeremy Wright: I have been asked to reply on behalf as their records are split into area postal codes, and to of the Ministry of Justice. do so would be at disproportionate cost. Spreadsheets The European Certificate of Succession is part of the showing the number of CICs registered to each area recently adopted European Community Regulation on postal code in each year since 2006 will be placed in the jurisdiction, applicable law, recognition and enforcement Libraries of the House. of decisions and authentic instruments in matters of succession. This regulation was adopted in July 2012. Consumers: Loans The UK is not party to this regulation, a right which it exercised under the UK’s Protocol to the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. As a result, Christopher Pincher: To ask the Secretary of State for the UK will not be bound by the regulation when it Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has comes into operation, nor does the UK have any intention made of the proportion of bill-of-sale lenders who have of being bound by it. signed up to abide by his Department’s voluntary code of practice; and if his Department will reconsider the The Government have no current plans to change the option of introducing a mandatory code. [118770] law in this area. Jo Swinson: The Government understands the concerns VAT: Energy around the use of bills of swale in consumer lending. The Government consulted on whether to ban the use Tom Greatrex: To ask the Chancellor of the of these types of loans but following a careful consideration Exchequer what recent estimate he has made of the of all the evidence, concluded that rather than banning cost to (a) business and (b) household consumers of these loans, a package of measures based on an industry the levying of VAT on (i) gas and (ii) electricity bills. Code of Practice was the best way to proceed in this [120383] market. The Consumer Credit Trade Association, the trade Mr Gauke: No estimate has been made of the amount association representing the vast majority of logbook of receipts from levying VAT on (i) gas and (ii) electricity loan companies is responsible for the code. They recently consumed by (a) businesses and (b) households. estimated that around 80% of the industry has signed up to the code. As well as increasing existing consumer protections, The Code is designed to give greater protection to any BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS unsuspecting buyer of a second-hand car. The Government has no plans to introduce a mandatory Business: Birmingham code at this time.

Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for Consumers: Protection Business, Innovation and Skills how many businesses in (a) Birmingham, Ladywood constituency and (b) Birmingham participated in the business mentor Julian Sturdy: To ask the Secretary of State for scheme in the latest period for which figures are Business, Innovation and Skills if he will review available. [117993] consumer protection rules for the purpose of providing further protection for consumers paying tradespeople Michael Fallon: Over 13,000 volunteers have now in cash. [118667] been recruited through the Get Mentoring scheme, which is led by SFEDI (Small Firms Enterprise Jo Swinson: Consumers are already protected in law Development Initiative). More than 9,000 of these against faulty or substandard goods and services when volunteers have already completed training—around they pay tradesmen for goods or services whether in 10% of whom are based in the west midlands. This cash or by other means. Depending on whether the estimate is only approximate and based on the location consumer is paying for goods or services, the relevant of the workshop they attended so does not include legislation is the Sale of Goods Act 1979 or the Supply those who have completed their training via online or of Goods and Services Act 1982, respectively. 209W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 210W

The Government is intending to bring forward a (10) whether the proposed changes to section 52 of Consumer Bill of Rights to simplify and clarify consumer the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 will be rights when those goods or services are defective so that introduced on the basis of a transitional period to they are easier for consumers to understand and enforce. allow firms to adjust; [118747] The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading (11) what assessment he has made of whether firms Regulations 2008 (CPRs) make it an offence for traders are likely to close as a result of the proposed changes to to treat consumers unfairly through misleading actions, section 52 of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act misleading omissions or aggressive practices. The 1988; and how many such closures may take place; Government is also intending to bring forward proposals [118748] to give consumers who are victims of these practices (12) whether he has made an estimate of additional clearer private rights of redress. costs that may be incurred by businesses as a result of the proposed changes to section 52 of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988; [118749] Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 (13) if he proposes to consult with any of the individuals and businesses likely to be affected by the proposed changes to section 52 of the Copyright, Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for Designs and Patents Act 1988; [118750] Business, Innovation and Skills (1) if he will take steps to ensure that any transitional periods granted to businesses (14) if he will publish the research and statistical affected by the proposed changes to section 52 of the basis for the cost and benefit analysis of the plans to Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 will be granted repeal section 52 of the Copyright, Designs and on a case-by-case basis; [118738] Patents Act 1988 set out in the impact assessment by the Intellectual Property Office; [118751] (2) whether his Department plans to offer assistance (15) what factors he plans to take into account when to firms engaged in the manufacturing and production deciding what length of transitional periods should be of replica furniture if they suffer economic disadvantage granted to businesses affected by the proposed changes as a result of the proposed changes to section 52 of the to section 52 of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988; [118739] Act 1988; [118752] (3) if he will estimate the number of British (16) which stakeholders were consulted as part of the businesses likely to be economically (a) advantaged impact assessment process for the proposed changes to and (b) disadvantaged as a result of the proposed section 52 of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act changes to section 52 of the Copyright, Designs and 1988; [118753] Patents Act 1988; [118740] (17) if he will estimate any projected change in tax (4) what the evidential basis is of the statement in his revenue resulting from the proposed changes to Department’s impact assessment report on the proposed section 52 of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act changes to section 52 of the Copyright, Designs and 1988; [118754] Patents Act 1988, that the extensive use made by internet (18) if he will estimate the likely effect of the importers of the UK as a staging post for EU-wide proposed changes to section 52 of the Copyright, sales means that it is likely that a very significant part of Designs and Patents Act 1988 on the number of jobs in this claimed loss could be caused by infringers trading (a) manufacturers and importers of replica furniture in the UK; [118741] and (b) other associated businesses; [118755] (5) what consultation his Department is conducting (19) whether the Intellectual Property Office on a transitional period for businesses to adapt under consulted manufacturers and importers of, and traders the proposed changes to section 52 of the Copyright, in, replicas as part of its impact assessment of the Designs and Patents Act 1988; [118742] proposed changes to section 52 of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988; and if he will publish (6) if he will conduct an assessment of the recent any representations made as the result of such study by Dr Clare McAndrew of potential effects of consultation; [118756] the repeal of section 52 of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 on manufacturers, importers and (20) whether his Department consulted about the retailers of replica furniture; and if he will publish the possibility of applying the proposed changes to section 52 of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 results of that assessment; [118743] retrospectively. [118757] (7) what assessment he has made of potential changes in the level of litigation relating to copyright Jo Swinson: As detailed in the impact assessment on disputes as a result of the proposed changes to copyright protection for designs: section 52 of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act http://www.bis.gov.uk/assets/biscore/corporate/docs/c/12-866- 1988; [118744] copyright-protection-designs-impact-assessment (8) whether he has made an assessment of the likely the Government proposes to repeal section 52 of the effects of the proposed repeal of section 52 of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 (“section 52”) Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 on firms in order to clarify and update UK legislation in line currently producing furniture replicas; [118745] with EU law. (9) what assessment he has made of the impact The Government did not carry out a formal consultation assessment report from the Intellectual Property Office prior to publishing the impact assessment, but it did on the plans to repeal section 52 of the Copyright, take into account representations made to it by Designs and Patents Act 1988; [118746] manufacturers of classic designs who have said that 211W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 212W they sustain significant losses as a result of internet Michael Fallon [holding answer 7 September 2012]: sellers who take advantage of the loop hole in the UK The Export Control Organisation (ECO) aims to process legislation to sell unauthorised copies from the far east 70% of standard individual export licence (SIEL) and in the rest of the EU. The Government does not plan to standard individual trade control licence (SITCL) publish these ad hoc representations. It is aware of the applications within 20 working days. For open individual work by Dr Clare McAndrew. export licence (OIEL) and open individual trade control The research and statistical basis underlying the cost licence (OITCL) applications, the ECO aims to process and benefit analysis for the proposed repeal was set out 60% of applications within 60 working days. in the impact assessment and was endorsed by the Median processing times are published as part of the Regulatory Policy Committee as fit for purpose. Government’s Annual and Quarterly reports on Strategic The Government has no current plans to provide Export Controls, which are available to view on the further estimates of the impact on jobs or tax receipts Strategic Export Controls Reports and Statistics website on businesses associated with the manufacturing and at: import of replica furniture. Nor are there any plans to https://www.exportcontroldb.bis.gov.uk/eng/fox apply the changes retrospectively. As detailed in the published impact assessment, the For the first quarter of 2012, the median processing number of items which may be affected by the repeal of times for SIELs and SITCLs was 15 days, and for section 52 is uncertain, but will depend on the exact OIELs and OITCLs 54 days. nature of the transitional provisions, the extent to which Information covering 1 April to 30 June 2012, will be the provisions are tailored to individual cases, as well as published in October 2012. stock levels, and contractual and licensing arrangements. The repeal may have only limited impact in some sectors, depending on how many rights holders decide to enforce Higher Education: Admissions their copyrights and to litigate if necessary, and how far the works concerned are judged to qualify for copyright protection. The Government has no plans to provide Jonathan Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for direct financial assistance. Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking The Government will hold a public consultation on to increase the number of state school pupils who go the implementation of the transitional provisions. In on to attend Russell Group universities. [119971] the meantime, discussions and evidence-gathering with importers, sellers and manufacturers of replica furniture Mr Willetts: The Government have established a new are continuing. framework, which places more responsibility on universities Education: Prisoners and colleges to widen participation. We will ensure that widening participation for students from all backgrounds Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for remains a key strategic objective for all higher education Business, Innovation and Skills how many prisoners in institutions. We believe it is valid and appropriate for (a) England and (b) Birmingham have participated in institutions to seek to broaden access while maintaining his Department’s Making Prisons Work: Skills for excellence, so long as individuals are considered on Rehabilitation scheme since May 2011; and what the their merits, and institutions’ procedures are fair, transparent cost of this scheme has been. [120236] and evidence-based. All institutions that intend to charge more than the Matthew Hancock: ‘Making Prisons Work: Skills for basic £6,000 annual tuition charge have to demonstrate Rehabilitation’, published jointly by the Department to the satisfaction of the independent Director of Fair for Business, Innovation and Skills and the Ministry of Access what more they will do to attract students from Justice in May 2011, set out a new strategy for offender under-represented and disadvantaged groups. A new learning and represents a new way of delivering it. The National Scholarship programme began this year. By strategy gives prison governors a new, decisive influence 2014, it will provide £150 million to help improve access on the choice of education provider and the curriculum to higher education amongst the least well off young to be delivered, and renews and refreshes the focus on people and adults. All higher education institutions developing the skills employers want in the areas where charging over £6,000 will be required to participate in prisoners will be released. Its principal impacts will the programme begin to be seen from this summer as providers commence delivery against a new service specification. We wrote on the 22 May to both the Higher Education Funding Council for England (HEFCE) and the Office The Skills Funding Agency’s budget for 2012-13 to for Fair Access (OFFA) asking them to develop a deliver learning and careers advice in prisons is £154 million. shared strategy for promoting access to higher education Skills Funding Agency data show that on 1 June 2012, and maximising the impact of the spending by Government, 28,6871 prisoners were engaged in learning it funds, HEFCE and institutions. We asked them to consider with 318 engaged at HMP Birmingham. 1 how total investment might be best targeted to deliver Data exclude HMP Thameside and HMP Oakwood. impact. It is vital that all the relevant spending is based Export Controls on the best possible evidence base and harnessed to drive systematic improvements. Mr Bone: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, The Government have published a measure of the Innovation and Skills what the average time taken to gap in progression to the most selective higher education award an export licence was in the latest period for institutions by school type. This measure was developed which figures are available. [119939] as part of the Government’s social mobility strategy. 213W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 214W

India Chancellor or other officials of London Metropolitan University since 2010; and what the nature of those Ian Paisley: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, discussions was. [119895] Innovation and Skills what steps his Department is taking to reduce the UK’s current account deficit with Mr Willetts [holding answer 7 September 2012]: I have been in regular touch with London Metropolitan India. [118892] University in recent months. As was the case with previous Administrations, it is not the Government’s Michael Fallon: The UK had a current account surplus practice to provide details of all such meetings. of £972 million with India in 2011. The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills Overseas Trade: Burma will continue its work to create further improvements in the bilateral trade and investment relationship between Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for the UK and India. UK Trade and Investment’s (UKTI) Business, Innovation and Skills what recent assessment India team is the third largest such operation in the he has made of trade relations between the UK and world with 86 staff based in nine cities. The team Burma; and if he will make a statement. [118689] delivers a full programme of activity aimed at supporting UK businesses, particularly from the small medium Michael Fallon: There has been significant interest in sized enterprise (SME) sector, seeking to do business in Burma from UK businesses since our policy of discouraging India. UKTI also provides financial support (£1 Million trade was lifted earlier this year in recognition of progress P/A) for the UK India Business Council which alongside made in Burma. We strongly believe that responsible UKTI, advises UK businesses on how to succeed in trade and investment can aid Burma’s transition to India. democracy. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office is A successful resolution to the ongoing EU—India funding a project which will provide advice on the Free Trade Agreement negotiations will also have a implementation of the United Nations (UN’s) Guiding positive effect on our current account with India. Principles and will establish a resource centre within Burma to provide advice to embassies and companies India and China on doing business responsibly. UKTI now has a presence in the market and is able to Ian Paisley: To ask the Secretary of State for provide a range of services to UK businesses, including Business, Innovation and Skills what progress UK tailored market research to help them plan how to Trade and Investment has made in the creation of new sustainably invest in the market. posts in (a) India and (b) China. [118894] Overseas Trade: Environment Protection Michael Fallon: Over the past two years we have reviewed the deployment of UKTI resources in both Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for India and China and as a result have strengthened our Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the written operations in both markets. We now have 88 full-time ministerial statement of 17 July 2012, on UKTI and equivalent staff in India and 97 in China. We will soon ECGD Support for Green Technologies, whether the be recruiting to fill new senior posts in both markets in Export Credits Guarantee Department would be order to strengthen further the support we can give to permitted to support export contracts for category A UK businesses in these key high growth markets. and category B projects as defined by the 2007 OECD Council Recommendation on Common Approaches on Insolvency the Environment and Officially Supported Export Credits where emissions during the operations phase are estimated to be above 100,000 tonnes carbon Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for dioxide equivalent per annum. [118309] Business, Innovation and Skills if he will commission a detailed study of the lay-by sales scheme in place in Jo Swinson: A new OECD Recommendation on New Zealand and the insolvency arrangements relating Common Approaches for Officially Supported Export to pre-payment customers. [120415] Credits and Environmental and Social Due Diligence was adopted by the OECD Council on 28 June 2012 Jo Swinson: We are aware of the protections available and all new applications for Export Credits Guarantee to pre-payment customers under New Zealand consumer Department (ECGD) support will be considered under law, but we have no plans to commit resources to such a its terms. ECGD would be permitted to support export study at this time. We fully appreciate the significant contracts that fall within the ambit of 2012 OECD impact that an insolvency can have on pre-payment Common Approaches, where the environmental, social customers and we have been working closely with the and human rights impacts of the related project, including pre-payment industry and consumers, particularly those carbon dioxide emissions, are addressed in accordance affected by the collapse of Farepak, to explore how they with the relevant international standards, typically those may be better protected in the future through non-regulatory of the World Bank Group. solutions. This work is ongoing. Regional Growth Fund: Worcestershire London Metropolitan University Karen Lumley: To ask the Secretary of State for Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how much funding has Business, Innovation and Skills what meetings at been awarded to businesses in Worcestershire through ministerial level have taken place with the Vice- the Regional Growth Fund to date. [119315] 215W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 216W

Michael Fallon: The Regional Growth Fund (RGF) is My Department does not hold this information centrally. delivering jobs and leveraging approximately £6 private investment for every pound Government spends. 13% Unfair Dismissal: Compensation of successful RGF projects from Rounds 1 and 2 are from the West Midlands; it is an important region Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for which we will continue to support. In Worcestershire, Business, Innovation and Skills what evidence or advice conditional allocations of £20,855,000 has been made his Department gathered on the potential direct from the first two rounds of bidding. Successful bids benefits to business prior to taking the decision to under Round Three will be announced shortly. consult on introducing compensated no fault Students: Finance dismissals. [120189] Jo Swinson: The Department has not consulted on Mr Sheerman: To ask the Secretary of State for introducing compensated no fault dismissal. Instead, Business, Innovation and Skills how many applications we issued a call for evidence as a preliminary stage in for professional and career development loans were our evidence-based approach to this policy. In conjunction received in each academic year since 2001-02. [119901] with this call for evidence, we published international case studies, which are available online at: Mr Willetts: Data held by the Skills Funding Agency indicates that, from the introduction of professional http://www.bis.gov.uk/assets/biscore/employment-matters/ docs/d/12-771-dismissal-for-micro-businesses-case-studies.pdf and career development loans in 2009, the following number of loan applications was received by the By the time the call for evidence closed on 8 June, we participating banks: had received a wide range of over 250 submissions. We are currently in the process of analysing the evidence, Financial year Number of applications carefully weighing the potential benefits and consequences of no fault dismissal. The Government response will be 2009-10 20,627 published shortly. 2010-11 19,229 2011-12 22,716 Work Experience: Minimum Wage In tine with the management of Departmental budgets, data is recorded in financial years, rather than academic Eric Ollerenshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for years. Data regarding applications for career development Business, Innovation and Skills how many complaints loans (up to 2009) was not part of the contractual audit his Department’s Pay and Work Rights helpline service requirements agreed with the banks. Information is has received from people who have undertaken unpaid therefore not available on the number of loan applications internships and believe they should have been entitled received prior to 2009. to the minimum wage; and how many such complaints have been resolved in favour of the complainant in the Sunday Trading latest period for which figures are available. [118729]

David Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for Jo Swinson: Before August 2011, the Government did Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has not collect information on whether or not the complainant made of the effect of the recent temporary relaxation was an intern, volunteer or otherwise working for no of Sunday trading legislation on (a) retail sales and pay or expenses only. Since then, this information has (b) levels of sick leave and other forms of absenteeism. been recorded. Up to 31 August 2012, 61 complaints [120412] have been referred to HMRC that have been identified as potentially being of this nature. Michael Fallon: The suspension of the current Sunday HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC’s) case management trading regulations applied to England and Wales from system does not differentiate between the outcome for 22 July to 9 September. ’interns’ cases’ and other cases. We are, therefore, unable The Department has requested data on the impact of to say how many complaints were resolved in favour of the suspension, including the impact on sales and the complainant. employment, from a number of large retailers and will analyse the impact on the retail sales of small retailers using the ONS Retail Sales Index. The Department has no plans to estimate the impact INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT of the suspension on levels of sick leave or other forms of absenteeism. Burma Trade Unions Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development whether her Department is Jim Sheridan: To ask the Secretary of State for funding any programmes promoting inter-faith and Business, Innovation and Skills if he will estimate the religious tolerance in Burma. [120453] number of publicly-funded projects undertaken by firms that engage in blacklisting against trade union Mr Duncan: DFID does not have any specific members. [119625] programmes which promote inter-faith and religious tolerance in Burma. We are working with a range of Mr Maude: I have been asked to reply on behalf of partners, including faith-based organisations, to support the Cabinet Office. peace and reconciliation in Burma. 217W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 218W

Developing Countries: Business Mr Duncan: The information requested is as follows: (a) £29,971,539 has been committed under UK Aid Andrew Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Match, to eight completed appeals, since the scheme International Development what steps her Department was launched in June 2011. is taking to support small and medium-sized The breakdown by nation, based on the location of enterprises in the developing world. [119525] charity Head Offices, is as follows: (b) Scotland: £0 Lynne Featherstone: The Department for International Development (DFID) plans to help unblock commercial (c) England: £29,071,539 lending to over 200,000 small and medium enterprises (d) Wales: £0 in Africa and South Asia over the next seven years. (e) Northern Ireland: £900,000. DFID is working with companies worldwide to find Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for new ways of incorporating small businesses into their International Development when the call for applications international supply chains. for the Aid Match scheme will re-open for 2013. DFID is also supporting legal and regulatory reform, [120462] infrastructure development, and establishment of property rights to reduce the cost of doing business in partner Mr Duncan: UK Aid Match is expected to re-open developing countries. for applications in late 2012. Developing Countries: Sanitation

Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE International Development what support her Department has given in each country for aid and Bahrain development projects relating to water, sanitation and hygiene in the last 12 months; and how much was spent Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign in each country on each such project. [120456] and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he has received on allegations of use of bird shot by Bahraini Lynne Featherstone: Details of the Department police and security forces in towns and villages in for International Development (DFID) bilateral aid Bahrain. [120218] expenditure by sector is published in Statistics on International Development (SID) which is available Alistair Burt: I have seen non-governmental online at organisation and press reports about the alleged use of www.dfid.gov.uk ’bird shot’ by the Bahraini police. We have made it The next SID report will be available in October 2012. clear to the Bahraini Government that we expect them The consolidated figures for 2012/13 are not yet to adhere to international human rights standards at all available, however, the latest details on each individual times. We have also called on the police to exercise all project are available on our website at possible restraint in their handling of public order http://projects.dfid.gov.uk/ situations. But, we have also seen an increase in violence Overseas Aid directed at the security forces, including the use of Molotov cocktails and nail bombs. We have made it clear that we expect demonstrators to also respect the Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for rule of law. Legitimate and peaceful demonstrations International Development what assessment she has are a welcome part of any society, but violence on the made of the effectiveness of the Aid Match scheme. streets is not. [120460] We expect all those who commit human rights Mr Duncan: UK Aid Match was launched as a one-year violations to be prosecuted. I am pleased that the pilot in June 2011. The scheme has been a successful Bahraini Government has begun this process, but a lot mechanism for backing public choices on the use of aid, more needs to be done. by matching their donations to charity appeals, pound for pound. To date 16 organisations have successfully Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign applied to the scheme, with eight appeals completed, and Commonwealth Affairs whether he has made and eight currently in progress. The money raised will representations to the Bahraini government on the support a wide variety of development projects and imprisonment of Nabeel Rajab. [120219] programmes, all designed to deliver important, measurable improvements to the lives of some of the world’s poorest Alistair Burt: I am very concerned at the length of people. the sentence handed down to Nabeel Rajab for charges relating to comments made on social networking sites Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for and for the incitement of illegal rallies. International Development what the total value of I have made it clear to the Bahraini authorities that support provided to charities through the Aid Match the human and civil rights of peaceful opposition scheme was in (a) the UK, (b) Scotland, (c) England, figures must be respected. Freedom of expression, (d) Wales and (e) Northern Ireland in the last year for freedom of assembly and peaceful protests are which figures are available. [120461] legitimate parts of any modern democracy. 219W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 220W

Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Consular staff visited him regularly and we were in and Commonwealth Affairs whether he has made frequent contact with him, his family and with the representations to the Bahraini government on the CAR authorities throughout his detention to monitor case of the medics convicted for their role in the his welfare and to urge a swift resolution of the case. demonstrations in that country in 2011. [120220] I also refer my hon. Friend to the Foreign Secretary’s statement of 8 September 2012. Alistair Burt: The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), expressed Gambia his concern, and that of the British Government, when the medical staff were convicted last year. We believed the sentences imposed were disproportionate and we Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign believe the trials were flawed. and Commonwealth Affairs (1) what discussions he On appeal, many of the sentences were overturned, has had with the government of Gambia on the which we welcomed. I understand the remaining cases wellbeing of journalists and activists in The Gambia will be heard in October, and that all medical staff are who are perceived to be opponents of the government; currently on bail. [119871] We have made it clear to the Bahraini Government (2) what discussions he has had with the government that the civil rights of peaceful opposition figures, the of Gambia on the condition of Ebrima Manneh; legitimate exercise of freedom of expression and of [119872] peaceful assembly must be respected. (3) if he will make representations to the government of Gambia on the detention of journalist Ebrima Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Manneh. [119873] and Commonwealth Affairs whether he raised the excessive use of force by Bahraini security forces Mark Simmonds: Britain is deeply concerned about against protesters with King Hamad of Bahrain on his human rights in The Gambia, including the rights of recent visit to London. [120221] journalists and, in particular, the absence of full and proper investigation into the disappearance of Ebrima Alistair Burt: The Prime Minister discussed a wide Manneh in 2006. range of issues with the King of Bahrain, including the We have raised these general concerns, as well as internal situation and the Bahraini Government’s more specific concerns about individuals, including efforts to implement the findings of the Bahrain Ebrima Manneh, at EU meetings which are held twice Independent Commission of Enquiry. The discussions a year and co-chaired by our high commissioner in built on detailed and continuing contact which Foreign Banjul. The last one was held on 6 June 2012. We have and Commonwealth Office Ministers have regularly also repeatedly raised the case of Ebrima Manneh— with the Bahraini authorities on these subjects. and fellow journalist Deyda Hydara who was killed Buildings in 2004—bilaterally with the Government of The Gambia. Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for At EU talks in November last year, the Gambian Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what reciprocal Government agreed to invite the UN Secretary-General arrangements there are between the UK and other to commission an inquiry into the disappearance of nations for the leasing of property for diplomatic Ebrima Manneh and the death of Deyda Hydara. The purposes. [120499] Government has since done so and the UN Secretary- General has referred both cases to the UN Office of the Mr Lidington: We have a bilateral agreement with the high commissioner for Human Rights. We continue to Russians whereby we provide each other with property follow the inquiry and take an interest in developments. in Moscow and in London on a 99-year lease. There We are not aware of any journalists under detention are no other formal reciprocal arrangements between or facing prosecution at present, but the high the UK and other nations. commissioner has raised concerns with the Gambian Government at the sudden closure of Taranga FM Central African Republic Radio Station in August. We remain in close contact with the station manager. Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent reports he has received on the welfare of David Hungary Simpson held under house arrest in the Central African Republic; and if he will make a statement. [120564] Mr Spellar: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Mark Simmonds: We are delighted that David and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions he has Simpson is now back in the UK. Government had with the Hungarian Government on the case of Ministers and officials have worked hard on his behalf Ramil Safarov. [120223] since his arrest. The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Mr Lidington: The UK Government has not held Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague) raised the any discussions with the Hungarian authorities on the case personally with Central African Republic (CAR) case of Ramil Safarov. We are, however, following Foreign Minister Gambi in August. developments closely. We have supported EU and 221W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 222W

Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe and Azerbaijan are not increased as a result of this (OSCE) statements on the Safarov case. Our main incident, and to encourage both sides to exercise concern is to ensure that tensions between Armenia restraint to prevent any escalation of the situation.

ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 11 September 2012

Col. No. Col. No. TREASURY ...... 117 TREASURY—continued Air Passenger Duty ...... 128 Pensioner Tax Allowances...... 122 Beer Duty ...... 125 Personal Allowances ...... 130 Cost of Credit...... 131 Public Sector Borrowing ...... 122 Families with Children (Tax and Benefits) ...... 129 Tax Avoidance ...... 117 Household Expenditure ...... 124 Tax Simplification...... 126 Infrastructure...... 119 Topical Questions ...... 132 Market Interest Rates...... 126 VAT (Retail Sector)...... 127 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Tuesday 11 September 2012

Col. No. Col. No. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE ..... 5WS TREASURY ...... 5WS Zimbabwe ...... 5WS Small Charitable Donations Bill...... 5WS

TRANSPORT ...... 6WS WORK AND PENSIONS...... 8WS Fuel Quality Directive Transposition ...... 6WS Cold Weather Payments Scheme ...... 8WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Tuesday 11 September 2012

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 207W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— Business: Birmingham...... 207W continued Community Interest Companies ...... 208W Local Government Finance: Sefton ...... 146W Consumers: Loans ...... 208W Parish Councils ...... 146W Consumers: Protection...... 208W Pay...... 147W Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 ...... 209W Planning Permission ...... 147W Education: Prisoners...... 211W Right to Buy: Advertising ...... 147W Export Controls ...... 211W Social Rented Housing...... 148W Higher Education: Admissions ...... 212W Third Sector...... 148W India ...... 213W India and China...... 213W Insolvency...... 213W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 134W London Metropolitan University...... 213W Broadband: Rural Areas ...... 134W Overseas Trade: Burma...... 214W Football ...... 135W Overseas Trade: Environment Protection ...... 214W Museums and Galleries: Yorkshire and the Regional Growth Fund: Worcestershire ...... 214W Humber ...... 135W Students: Finance ...... 215W Music: Young People ...... 136W Sunday Trading...... 215W Olympic Games 2012: Swindon ...... 136W Trade Unions ...... 215W Public Expenditure: Merseyside ...... 137W Unfair Dismissal: Compensation ...... 216W Research ...... 139W Work Experience: Minimum Wage...... 216W Tourism...... 139W War Memorials ...... 140W CABINET OFFICE...... 182W Prisoners: Voting Rights ...... 182W DEFENCE...... 164W Private Sector: Yorkshire and the Humber...... 183W Armed Forces: Career Development ...... 164W Armed Forces: Redundancy...... 166W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 141W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 166W Apprentices...... 141W HMS Victory ...... 167W Audit Commission ...... 141W Hungary...... 167W Council Tax Benefits...... 141W Indonesia ...... 167W Fire Services...... 142W Israel...... 168W Fire Stations: Closures ...... 143W Museums ...... 168W Homelessness...... 143W NATO...... 169W Housing: Construction...... 144W Reserve Forces ...... 170W Housing: Co-operatives...... 145W Submarines ...... 170W Housing: Sales ...... 145W Syria...... 171W Licensing...... 146W Ulster Defence Regiment ...... 172W Local Government Finance ...... 146W Yorkshire Regiment ...... 172W Col. No. Col. No. DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 181W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 216W Constituencies...... 181W Burma...... 216W Work Experience: Social Mobility...... 182W Developing Countries: Business...... 217W Developing Countries: Sanitation ...... 217W EDUCATION...... 148W Overseas Aid...... 217W Frank Website...... 148W GCSE: English Language ...... 149W JUSTICE...... 183W Anti-slavery Day ...... 183W Claims Management Services...... 183W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 131W Community Orders: Yorkshire and the Humber .... 184W Energy Bill ...... 131W Coroners ...... 184W Energy: Conservation...... 132W Driving Offences ...... 185W Energy: Fees and Charges ...... 132W Fines ...... 187W Energy: Meters...... 132W Fraud ...... 187W Energy: Scotland...... 133W Fraud: Social Security Benefits ...... 189W EU Emissions Trading Scheme: Aviation ...... 134W Human Trafficking ...... 189W Renewable Energy: Feed-in Tariffs...... 134W Juries: Illegal Immigrants...... 190W Solar Power...... 134W Mesothelioma: Compensation ...... 190W Olympic Games 2012: Touting...... 191W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Perjury ...... 192W AFFAIRS...... 121W Prison Accommodation ...... 192W Agriculture: Subsidies ...... 121W Prisoners ...... 192W Dangerous Dogs ...... 121W Prisoners’ Discharge Grants...... 200W Floods: Insurance ...... 122W Prisons: Television ...... 200W Nature Conservation...... 122W Sexual Harassment: Employment Tribunals Water Charges: Voluntary Organisations ...... 123W Service ...... 201W Sexual Offences: Lie Detectors...... 202W Translation Services ...... 202W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE .... 218W Unpaid Fines ...... 203W Bahrain ...... 218W Victim Support: North Yorkshire...... 203W Buildings...... 219W Central African Republic...... 219W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 124W Gambia...... 220W Corporation Tax ...... 124W Hungary...... 220W National Crime Agency ...... 125W

HEALTH...... 150W SCOTLAND...... 124W Antidepressants ...... 150W Cabinet Growth Implementation Committee...... 124W Care Homes: Fees and Charges...... 150W Entry Clearances: Overseas Students ...... 124W Drugs: Rehabilitation...... 150W Food ...... 124W Euthanasia...... 151W Flunitrazepam ...... 151W TRANSPORT ...... 130W Health Services: Greater London...... 151W Biofuels...... 130W Health Services: Young People...... 152W Chesham ...... 130W Health Visitors...... 153W High Speed 2 Railway Line ...... 130W Hepatitis ...... 156W Motor Vehicles: Registration...... 131W Hospitals: Admissions ...... 156W Motorcycles: Driving Tests ...... 131W Hospitals: North West ...... 157W Road Traffic Control...... 131W Hyperactivity: Children ...... 158W Injuries: Animals...... 159W TREASURY ...... 204W NHS: Internet ...... 159W Beer Duty ...... 205W NHS: Reorganisation...... 160W Churchill Insurance...... 206W Older People: Day Centres...... 160W Cost of Credit...... 206W Out-patients: Attendance...... 162W European Investment Bank...... 204W Palliative Care...... 163W Financial Services: Advisory Services...... 206W Financial Services Compensation Scheme...... 206W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 125W Household Expenditure ...... 205W Acid Attacks ...... 125W Infrastructure...... 205W Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre .. 125W Succession: EU Action...... 207W Crime...... 126W VAT: Energy...... 207W Crime: Betting Shops ...... 126W Youth Unemployment...... 204W Crime: Birmingham ...... 126W Crime Prevention ...... 126W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 172W Domestic Violence ...... 127W Benefit Deduction Orders ...... 172W Drugs...... 127W Children: Day Care ...... 172W Female Genital Mutilation...... 128W Employment and Support Allowance ...... 173W Offences Against Children: Internet...... 128W Employment Schemes: Brigg...... 174W Prostitution...... 128W Housing Benefit: South East...... 174W Prostitution: Court Orders...... 128W Industrial Health and Safety...... 177W Sexual Offences: Armed Forces...... 129W Jobseeker’s Allowance ...... 178W Stalking...... 129W Members: Correspondence ...... 178W Third Sector...... 130W Social Security Benefits...... 178W Col. No. Col. No. WORK AND PENSIONS—continued WORK AND PENSIONS—continued Social Security Benefits: Married People...... 179W Work Programme...... 180W Work Capability Assessment...... 179W Work Programme: Harrogate...... 181W Work Capability Assessment: Birkenhead...... 179W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

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CONTENTS

Tuesday 11 September 2012

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 117] [see index inside back page] Chancellor of the Exchequer

NHS Audit Requirements (Foreign Nationals) [Col. 140] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Henry Smith)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Opposition Day [6th allotted day] Universal Credit and Welfare Reform [Col. 143] Motion—(Mr Byrne)—on a Division, negatived

Higher and Further Education [Col. 203] Motion—(Shabana Mahmood)—on a Division, negatived Amendment—(Mr Willetts)—agreed to Motion, as amended, agreed to

Petition [Col. 254]

Wayne Moore [Col. 255] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Rohingya Communities [Col. 1WH] Domestic Violence [Col. 25WH] Whistleblowing [Col. 50WH] Diabetes (Care in Schools) [Col. 58WH] UK and Welsh Governments (Finance) [Col. 67WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 5WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 121W] [see index inside back page]