Friday Volume 519 3 December 2010 No. 84

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Friday 3 December 2010

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2010 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ Enquiries to the Office of Public Sector Information, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 1083 3 DECEMBER 2010 Daylight Saving Bill 1084

carbon emissions, it is more important than ever that House of Commons the bizarre practices that apply to private Members’ business on Fridays do not prevent the Bill from getting Friday 3 December 2010 a full and proper hearing and reaching the statute book?

The House met at half-past Nine o’clock Rebecca Harris: I thank the hon. Lady for that helpful intervention. I agree. The arguments in favour of the measure now are more salient than they ever have been. PRAYERS I will go on to outline some of those issues, including the climate change impact that she is concerned about. [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills yesterday received letters from people throughout the Rebecca Harris (Castle Point) (Con): I beg to move, country—small children who like playing outside after That the House sit in private. school, elderly people who want to feel safer walking in Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 163), and the afternoon, local football teams who cannot afford negatived. to light their pitches, seasonal affective disorder sufferers who long for happier winters, and many doctors keen to Daylight Saving Bill reduce road traffic accidents and generally improve public health. 9.34 am Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): I Rebecca Harris: I beg to move, That the Bill be now am very sympathetic to the hon. Lady’s Bill. Has she read a Second time. had representations, as I have, from amateur astronomers As someone with a few years’ experience in the Chamber, and from the strictly orthodox Jewish community? you, Mr Speaker, are probably more familiar with the measure than I am, as this is far from being the first Rebecca Harris: I can confirm that I have had two time the House has debated the subject. The question of representations from amateur astronomers, saying that how we best use our daylight hours has been debated in the height of summer the measure could delay their for well over 100 years. Daylight saving proposals in one ability to gaze at the stars for an extra hour, and I have form or another have been brought to the House or to had representations from the orthodox Jewish community the other place on many occasions and by many more that in the deep midwinter there could be problems in experienced and more distinguished parliamentarians getting to work on time after morning prayers, which than me. are daylight-sensitive. Winston Churchill introduced single/double summer I recognise and appreciate those concerns, and they time during the war to save fuel and let people get home are all the more reason why I call for a review. Those more safely during the blackout. In more recent memory, might not be insurmountable problems, and employers the measure was proposed by Nigel Beard and David could be understanding in the darker weeks of winter. Kidney as Labour Back-Benchers. Sir John Butterfill All those communities could, of course, get all the other came closest to success in 1996, and my hon. Friend the benefits that the Bill would bring for their families and Member for South Suffolk (Mr Yeo)introduced a similar their children, so there might be some common ground. Bill on two occasions. Finally, I will not leave out my Letters have been sent by parents who simply want their good friend Lord Tanlaw, who describes himself as a children to be safer on the roads and by environmentalists Scottish crofter and sits on the Cross Benches, and who, who are keen to cut carbon emissions. All those people, since introducing the measure, has become known as despite the different benefits they hope to obtain, believe the Time Lord. that a small adjustment to our clocks could not only The fact that daylight saving has been championed save scores of lives on the roads but make us happier, by people all over the country and across the political healthier and wealthier as a nation. Sadly, previous spectrum suggests that it is not a party political issue. attempts to make progress on the issue have foundered, Hon. Members will note the remarkable range of more in peacetime at least. than 300 organisations backing the Bill as part of the Previous Bills have been talked out, kicked into the Lighter Later coalition—such unusual bedfellows as grass or had their Government support removed at the the Kennel Club, Greenpeace, the British Beer and Pub last moment. All too often, we have cast the facts aside, Association, the England and Wales Cricket Board, the and emotion and, even, suspicion seem to have driven Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents, the AA, the House. Some hon. Members have seemed keener to the Football Association and Parentline Plus. explore the minutiae of marginal procedural issues or The campaign has garnered enormous public support, focused purely on the measure’s effects in deep winter so much so that yesterday the superb Lighter Later and high summer, as though there were no benefits on campaigners delivered 9,000 individually written letters those days or during the nine other months of the to the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. year—anything, rather than embrace the substance of the proposal. Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab): I support the Bill. In the early days, organisations such as ROSPA Mr Tim Yeo (South Suffolk) (Con): I congratulate my did much to support measures on safety grounds, but hon. Friend on introducing the Bill, of which I am an does the hon. Lady agree that, with the challenge of unqualified and enthusiastic supporter. Does she agree climate change and the importance of reducing our that, in addition to bringing benefits to millions of 1085 Daylight Saving Bill3 DECEMBER 2010 Daylight Saving Bill 1086

[Mr Tim Yeo] precious time today, despite the weather, to be in the Chamber. I refer in particular to my hon. Friend the people throughout the United Kingdom, it is likely to Member for Winchester (Mr Brine), who has broken off increase Government revenues by hugely boosting the his paternity leave to join us, and I am sure the House tourist trade? will join me in congratulating him on the arrival of baby William. Rebecca Harris: Absolutely, and, as my hon. Friend We cannot grow time, make more of it than we have will know, I have received an enormous number of or create additional daylight, but it is up to us to utilise representations from the tourist trade, which has some both as best we can. We in this House determine what quite interesting claims for the measure’s benefits. The time regime the country uses to regulate everyone’s Bill might also benefit the retail sector and the leisure lives, and all I ask is that we ensure we set our clocks to sector, including sporting organisations, so its revenue everyone’s best advantage. Given the wealth of arguments potential is enormous. in favour of change, the Government should surely ensure that they have it right. My Bill asks, therefore, Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): My hon. for a review of whether we would be better off moving Friend seems rather dismissive of the concerns of those our clocks ahead one hour in winter, in summer or in a constituency such as mine—where opinion seems both. evenly divided for and against the change—who are Essentially, we would move an hour of daylight from genuinely worried, for example, about children having the morning, when people use it least, to the afternoon to wait for school buses at the end of country lanes on or evening, when we could make better use of it, and, as many more dark mornings than they do now. Those most of us wake up well after sunrise for nine months a concerns cannot simply be ignored or regarded as year and go to bed long after sunset, we could make procedural. better use of our daylight hours. As I have said, the reasons for change are stronger today than ever, which Rebecca Harris: Perhaps I should not have taken that might explain why so many colleagues, particularly intervention at this stage, as I shall cover that issue in newly elected colleagues, are present to support the Bill. great detail later, but all the evidence shows that there Much of the evidence for change, gathered by a range are three times as many accidents among children in the of organisations and respected experts, seems to be evening rush hour as there are in the morning, which is strong and clear—some of it, unequivocal—but there why all the road safety organisations very much support are gaps, and too many people remain sceptical about the measure. the benefits that proponents of the measure claim. Previous debates have often generated more heat Without a clearer picture of the advantages and than daylight. [Interruption.] I am sorry, but it had to disadvantages, that might always remain the case: the be done, I am afraid. Indeed, I have experienced some status quo would be maintained, and we might miss out quite passionate debate myself. Little did I imagine, once again. when I innocently put my name into the ballot for private Members’ Bills, that I would later be attacked Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): My hon. for being a barbecue-obsessed Essex girl or, worse, a Friend makes a powerful case for her Bill, but does she national traitor trying to take us on to Berlin time. recognise the concerns of constituents such as mine, who experience greater antisocial behaviour in the summer months, when it is lighter later already, and are deeply Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): On the German concerned that such behaviour will continue to extend question, as a Welshman who comes from a constituency well beyond 11 o’clock? She might cover such concerns equidistant from northern Scotland and the Isle of later in her speech. Wight, I know that opinion is divided but that the vast majority are in favour. Does the hon. Lady, like me, Rebecca Harris: Antisocial behaviour is a great scourge, dismiss the argument that we are any less British during and I understand and appreciate those concerns. People the summer, when we move on to European summer are out more and make more noise in the warmth of time? I am sure that the European fans in her party will summer, but the difficulty that we and the police have is benefit from the measure, because many of them go to that quite a lot of youngsters escape under the cover of Europe anyway during the colder months. darkness. There is a big spike in antisocial behaviour not just in the summer months, but around Halloween Rebecca Harris: I certainly agree. There has been and bonfire night, so there is no clear relationship some debate about whether I am casting aside tradition between such behaviour and daylight hours. by suggesting that we should no longer be on Greenwich mean time for five winter months. I am a great traditionalist Matthew Hancock (West Suffolk) (Con): In gathering and very proud of the fact that we gave Greenwich evidence on the issue, will my hon. Friend ensure that mean time to the world, but within only 50 years of our the evidence of those who play and watch sport is taken establishing GMT we realised that it was not quite into account? Sport continuing later can help to deal appropriate to the way in which we lived our lives and with antisocial behaviour, so today, with our cricketers moved the clocks forward in the summer months. in Australia, will she ensure that the evidence recognises how frustrating it is to millions of cricket fans throughout The issue is not about Berlin or getting rid of tradition; the country when bad light stops play? it is entirely about what is right for the residents of these islands and nothing else. It involves a simple question Rebecca Harris: There is strong evidence that increased about how we should best use our daylight hours. Time youth participation in sport, in particular, can reduce is the most precious resource, and I am grateful to the antisocial behaviour and low-level crime by about 18%. large number of hon. Members who have given up their That is a very strong point. 1087 Daylight Saving Bill3 DECEMBER 2010 Daylight Saving Bill 1088

The central problem with our previous attempts to Rebecca Harris: I shall return to my speech, having introduce daylight saving has been an absence of all the taken many interventions. evidence, so I have sought to draft my Bill differently. I ask only that the Government take an objective, My Bill, unlike previous measures, does not enforce an informed decision based on the best available evidence immediate change or seek to enforce my views or those so that all the questions can be looked at properly of my colleagues on anyone; it simply asks the Government before a decision is taken. If the opponents are correct to conduct a cross-Government study of the benefits of and the evidence in favour of change is not as clear-cut the move. as many organisations and experts suggest, or if the I should like to investigate the current asymmetry of move would unfairly disadvantage any country of the the clock change, which curiously moves us on to winter United Kingdom, my Bill would not require anything time two months ahead of the shortest day and continues further to happen. Surely, therefore, no one need fear for three months after. The clause might be seen as a the study proposed in the Bill. Even the most vehement special gift to the hon. Member for—I shall say “the opponent of change cannot reasonably object to this western isles”, because I do not wish to irk Scottish modest request. However, if I and the supporters of this Members any more than is absolutely necessary—Na measure are right that there are clear benefits to the h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil). That is a particular whole—I stress, the whole—of the United Kingdom, it interest of his, so I hope that he will support at least that would be wrong not to go ahead with a proper trial. measure in my Bill. Although I am certain that hon. Members have had ample opportunity to consider the arguments in favour Mr Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab): May I say how of the measure, I will rehearse them briefly. First, every pleased I am that the hon. Lady has introduced the Bill? single road safety organisation tells me that the measure I shall be here to support it later. On the Scottish would save 80 lives on our roads every year, mainly question, if I can put it like that, given that the hon. among children under 15 and other vulnerable road Gentleman whom she has just cited is, in particular, users. If a transport disaster of that magnitude occurred anxious for increased independence from the UK, should in our country and the Government knew that it would we not have an option that enables Scotland to have its happen every year—year in, year out—but proposed to own time zone if it disagrees with the rest of us? do nothing about it, there would be a public outcry. Rebecca Harris: I do not agree with the right hon. However, there remains a kind of race memory that Gentleman, because I do not think that it would benefit the winter-only trial of GMT plus one between 1968 Scotland, or any other part of the British isles, to have a and 1970 led to increased road deaths, particularly separate time zone. From the evidence that has been among children going to school on dark winter mornings, gathered to date, it appears that this move would benefit as has been mentioned. That persistent myth has hampered Scotland over and above England and Wales. The short the debate ever since and it is simply not true. Extensive length of Scotland’s daylight hours in winter makes it research by the Transport Research Laboratory found all the more critical that they are deployed better. Road that, far from causing accidents—the view that, sadly, traffic accident statistics suggest strongly that to do so led to the experiment being abandoned in panic—the would save the lives of Scottish children. change resulted in an astonishing 1,120 fewer people being killed or seriously injured during the affected hours. The benefits for tourism could be greater for Scotland, because it is dependent on tourism for 11% of its The principal reason behind those figures is that economy, whereas the figure for England is 3%. There more accidents occur in the busy afternoon rush hour. are numerous other benefits, such as saving energy. It There are currently three times as many accidents, would be a mistake for us to see the move as a disbenefit particularly involving children, between 3 and 6 pm to Scotland and to suggest that it requires a separate than between 7 and 10 am. In the mornings, we tend to time zone. travel directly, we leave just as much time as we need to get to our destination and the roads are less busy. In the Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): I draw my afternoons, we make much more complicated journeys hon. Friend’s attention to the Library research paper, and people are much less attentive—children, in particular, which refers to the simulation of the previous experiment feel liberated after leaving school. That is why moving by the Transport and Road Research Laboratory. It an extra hour of daylight into the dangerous, busy peak indicates that the number of people killed and seriously time for travel would be beneficial for road safety. As I injured in the north of Scotland went up during the have said, that applies to an even greater extent in experiment. Scotland and, despite the conventional wisdom, I believe that Scotland stands to benefit the most from this Rebecca Harris: I think that my hon. Friend will find measure. that the figures for Scotland show that there was a higher reduction in road deaths as a proportion of the Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con): Does population of the whole of Scotland. The vast majority my hon. Friend agree that another myth that has grown of Scots live in the central belt of Scotland. The research up around the daylight saving issue is that the country found that it was beneficial for Scotland overall and clearly rejected the experiment when it ended in the that there was a net gain. ’70s? In fact, the Home Secretary of the time presented polling to the House to show that the public were in Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): The favour of the switch. issue of Scotland is critical to the debate. Had the experiment of 1968 to 1971 continued until today, more Rebecca Harris: Yes, Reginald Maudling presented than 3,500 people who have been killed in Scotland evidence to the House to show that a majority of people would be alive today. in the country were in favour of the change. As often 1089 Daylight Saving Bill3 DECEMBER 2010 Daylight Saving Bill 1090

[Rebecca Harris] months than for the winter months. Is she really convinced that the people of London will be happy when they happens, the people who are against something, nervous realise that in midwinter, they will enjoy sunrise 18 minutes about it or frightened of it speak more loudly than later than Aberdeen currently enjoys it in mid-winter? those who are in favour. We have all experienced that. Unusually, the campaigners for this change have been the louder voices. Rebecca Harris: As I said at the outset, one of the strange aspects of every discussion of this measure is Albert Owen: Poll findings are important. I am uncertain the tendency always to look at the extremes rather than what the polling said in 1970 when the experiment was the benefits across the country. Of course, a darker abandoned, but today, even in Scotland, the majority is morning means a lighter afternoon—somehow, we always in favour of the measure, because, among other things, seem to forget that in debates. transport infrastructure has changed radically. As a The road safety figures for deaths and accidents have Member who represents a rural constituency, I point been examined, re-examined and updated over and out that the National Farmers Union in Scotland is again by the experts. The Department for Transport neutral on or in favour of the measure. does not dispute that this measure would save lives and prevent injuries. That is why the Royal Society for the Rebecca Harris: It is clear from the last three polls Prevention of Accidents has been campaigning for the conducted in Scotland that there is a majority in favour. change for more than 60 years. It is backed up by every If one explains to people from Scotland the road safety other road safety body, and I am afraid I am going to evidence of an 11% drop in accidents in England and list them: the road victims charity Brake, the Parliamentary Wales and a 17% drop in Scotland, the number of Advisory Council for Transport Safety, the Chartered people in favour goes up. Institution of Highways and Transportation, the road traffic committee of the Magistrates’ Association, GEM Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ Motoring Assist, the AA, Road Safety GB, the Royal Co-op): I have tried, as best I can, to assess the opinions Automobile Club and the Institute of Advanced Motoring. in my constituency. This is in no sense scientific polling, I apologise if I have left anyone off that list. Those but the majority of opinion seems to be in favour of organisations are unanimous in backing the Bill, and giving the proposal the green light. Having said that, hon. Members will already have received correspondence the views are most mixed among those who remember from many of them encouraging them to support it. the last experiment. That is why we need a proper assessment of the evidence. The opportunity to save the lives of 80 people a year, As I understand it, under the Bill, the commission mainly children, is enough reason on its own for the Bill would make the final decision on whether to introduce to pass. However, there are other, economic benefits. the new time arrangements and the House would not Our tourism and leisure industry is a major employer, have an opportunity to have the final say. That concerns accounting for 3% of gross domestic product in me, and I would be interested to hear the hon. Lady’s England and Wales, 4% in Northern Ireland and 11% in comments. Perhaps the issue could be addressed by Scotland. Tourism bodies such as the British Association amendments at a later stage. of Leisure Parks, Piers and Attractions, Visit England and the Tourism Alliance have been pleading for the Rebecca Harris: The matter would have to come before change for more than a decade. Just this week the Parliament again, but such matters could be ironed out Caravan Club has also given backing to my Bill, and I in Committee. think we can all agree that it and its more than 1 million The hon. Gentleman spoke of the experiment in the members probably know a little bit about holidaying in late ’60s. It should be remembered that that was a the UK. winter-only trial. No one experienced the benefits of An extra hour of daylight at the end of the day would the change in the seven summer months. The enormous not only be an extra hour all year round for many benefits to everyone of longer evenings are much more attractions to stay open and trading; it would also noticeable in the spring, autumn and summer. That extend the summer tourist season. In effect, the long should be borne in mind when we consider that experiment hours of the average June would become the hours of and the reactions to it at the time. May and July, giving our tourism businesses the longer summers that their continental competitors take for Mark Lazarowicz: I confirm that I had misread the granted. The industry confidently estimates that an provision regarding the matter coming back to the advance in the clocks would result in increased revenue House. However, it is important that there is as full and of between £3 billion and £3.5 billion and the creation objective an assessment as possible, because what is of up to 70,000 to 80,000 new jobs. That would amount relevant for my constituents in south-east Scotland to a significant fiscal injection, with no input from the might be very different from what is relevant for the taxpayer. constituents of hon. Members from further to the north and east. Those points must be considered properly. Mr Don Foster (Bath) (LD): The hon. Lady rightly Rebecca Harris: It is a specific provision of the Bill raises the important issue of tourism, which would that the benefits should be considered in relation to all receive one of the many benefits of moving in the parts of the British isles. direction that she proposes. Will she remind the House that the figures that she has just referred to are for the Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD): I understand the United Kingdom overall, and that in Scotland alone, hon. Lady’s arguments as they relate to summer—most the evidence shows that the change would bring something of the arguments are much stronger for the summer in the region of 7,000 additional jobs? 1091 Daylight Saving Bill3 DECEMBER 2010 Daylight Saving Bill 1092

Rebecca Harris: That is correct. That is the analysis I have never doubted the common sense of farmers in we have, so we can see already the advantages in Scotland. any part of the country. Visit Scotland has taken a Attractions and venues could stay open, there would be similar stance, in view of its interest in visits to Scotland. more walking, and golf clubs in Scotland, which I know The tourism and leisure industry is not the only some hon. Members visit, could stay open. potential beneficiary, however. Extra daylight could be of enormous benefit to the entire retail sector, and Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) (Con): When I was according to a recent Greater London authority report examining the tourism issue, I was interested to learn of promoting a clock change, even our very popular and the importance to Scotland of the walking industry. well-loved financial and banking sector stands to benefit People who say that walking is part of their holiday in from being an extra hour closer to the markets in Asia. Scotland contribute close to £100 million a year. On top of that, the change would make it easier for rescue Charlotte Leslie (Bristol North West) (Con): I thank agencies, who say that one problem is the fast-closing my hon. Friend for taking so many interventions. I am a nights at certain times of year. It would be safer and great supporter of the Lighter Later campaign, but better for tourism in Scotland. does she agree that this discussion is not just about the arguments for and against the change, which are being Rebecca Harris: That is a very good point, and I debated excellently this morning, but also about what certainly argue that the tourism benefit holds true right the Chamber is for? We must represent the country across the country. outside these four walls. This issue has arisen again and again and is of concern to people outside, whereas some Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con): issues that we debate may not be of so much concern. Does my hon. Friend agree there would be particularly Does my hon. Friend agree that allowing the Bill to go disproportionate benefits to seaside towns, which have forward for further scrutiny will be testament to the struggled to regenerate down the years? Many workers fact that the House represents the people outside these in inland towns come to the seaside for their holidays four walls? during their two precious summer weeks off, particularly those from heavy industry. There would be a particular Rebecca Harris: I agree entirely, and as I said earlier, benefit for seaside towns and the workers who holiday Bills such as this have come around again and again. in them. They are usually talked out and run out of time, and nothing further happens. They are not taken forward, so various Departments do not get their heads together Rebecca Harris: I can certainly see the enormous to investigate the benefits or enter into discussions with benefits that the change would bring to towns such as the various parts of the United Kingdom. The proposal Blackpool and to all other parts of our domestic tourism dies again until some brave or naive soul such as myself economy. picks it up in a private Member’s Bill. There is then a vigorous and exciting campaign for six months, and Simon Kirby (Brighton, Kemptown) (Con): Brighton then if it does not get through to Committee, the is a very long way from Scotland, but 14,000 jobs there Government do not decide to examine properly the benefits depend on tourism, and nearly 9 million visitors spend across all Departments. Nothing happens, the debate a staggering three quarters of a billion pounds there does not move forward, entrenched views stay the same each and every year. There is a lot of benefit to the for ever and we never get over the hurdles. whole country in the proposals. Mr Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con): I thank my hon. Rebecca Harris: Cases are being made from around Friend for her earlier congratulations. She knows that I the country, and the tourism case holds true everywhere. support the Bill, and I am sure that baby William does The Northern Ireland Tourist Board has supported the as well, although I have no idea why, because daylight change since 1996, and National Galleries of Scotland hours seem to mean little to him. I am still standing, is backing it today. however. It is also worth noting that whereas the farming We have debated the importance of the Bill’s not industry objected to increased daylight saving 40 years dying and disappearing again for another few years. ago, it has now adopted a much more positive stance. However, Ministers are in Cancun at the moment, and That is not just because farming practices have changed surely the Bill’s energy-saving implications mean that considerably over the years but because farmers have there is real urgency that that does not happen this time. now diversified into tourism and leisure, with farm Such factors were not discussed, debated and evaluated stays and a range of outdoor activities. The National in the 1970s when the matter last came around. Farmers Union in England and Wales has been officially neutral on the matter for years, and now NFU Scotland Rebecca Harris: That is a very good point. Had the has come out in favour of my Bill. I should like to read experiment coincided with the energy crisis, a very what its spokesman has said: different view might have been taken in the House. I “We have been described as being vigorously opposed to this suggest that we now have an energy crisis of our own. but it is not quite as simple as that. To move the discussion forward”— Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): The hon. Lady has that is what I am hoping to do through my Bill— just made a point about the history of Governments’ “we do support the private member’s bill…which would propose attitudes to the proposals. Should not the unique attraction in-depth analysis of the impact of any change—a key concern for of the Bill to any Government be not just that it Scotland—before any permanent change to the clocks is proposed.” commands overwhelming support in the country and 1093 Daylight Saving Bill3 DECEMBER 2010 Daylight Saving Bill 1094

[Mr Ben Bradshaw] Rebecca Harris: Of course, that is what the Bill seeks to do, and what my hon. Friend says coincides with the the House, and that the evidence in favour of it is accident reduction figures. overwhelming, but that no other piece of legislation has the potential to spread so much happiness across the Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): Is it not United Kingdom? self-evident that with increased daylight hours, the fear of crime and of going out among older people will be reduced? Rebecca Harris: I thank the right hon. Gentleman. The urgent need to create new jobs and growth at the moment is another salient point. We are in a challenging Rebecca Harris: My hon. Friend anticipates my next economic situation, and I do not believe that any hon. comment. Age UK and Saga have told me how much Member can really think that we should ignore a potential safer older people will feel, and how much their fear of boost to the economy of 80,000 new jobs at no cost to crime will be drastically reduced, with longer daylight the taxpayer. hours. A lot of older people suffer a self-imposed curfew when it gets dark. Many will not even answer their door If colleagues are not yet convinced by the need to after 4 o’clock in the evening in winter. I am not save lives or boost the economy, I wonder whether the promoting the Bill because it will help politicians in potential health benefits will sway them. We all know their canvassing in the evenings, but we all know from what happens when it gets dark—people go back inside our experience of people who are very uncomfortable and often find themselves slumped in front of the even coming to the front door. Parliament channel, and opportunities for far more I have received a large volume of letters from older productive activity are lost. people. I was quite upset to find that many older people Hundreds of sports clubs and sporting bodies support feel lonely and that they cannot get out and enjoy social the Bill, although I am happy to say that neither FIFA activities. Some people will not drive simply because of nor Sepp Blatter are among them. The Central Council the glare on their glasses. One particularly upsetting for Physical Recreation, which changed its name this letter said: week—I cannot remember the new name—is an umbrella “Please will you make a point of being present to vote for the organisation for more than 300 sporting organisations, Lighter Later bill. Many old people living alone don’t see anybody including the Football Association, the Lawn Tennis for up to 18 hours once it gets dark &…lonely. I know as I am one Association and the England and Wales Cricket Board. of them! (Peter died last year).” In a letter to hon. Members, it said: That is quite heartbreaking. “We are convinced beyond doubt of the benefits that this move Finally, there is the clear potential to save energy—I would bring to both the grassroots of sport and the nation’s am sure that other hon. Members will speak at great health as a whole”. length on that because it is a pressing concern. The Bill It goes on to point out that increased participation in has a clear potential to help us cut our fuel use. Because sport is known to increase social and civic participation, the majority of us get up after dawn for more than nine reduce youth crime and reduce chronic illness, not least months of the year but few households go to sleep obesity. I have been flooded—absolutely inundated—with before dusk, we use artificial light every night of the letters from amateur sports groups, youth leaders and year. An extra hour of free daylight each day would cut schoolteachers, who all describe how much they could our electricity bills, and that would be offset only by do and achieve in their communities if their activities extra electricity bills in the short winter months. were not curtailed so early in the evening by dusk, In the shoulder months either side of mid-winter, the particularly in autumn and spring. I even received a peak demand for electricity occurs when dusk falls. We very supportive petition from a ladies’ carpet bowls come home from school or work at half-past 5 and put club in Yorkshire. Other likely health benefits have been on the lights, the kettle, the TV and computer games, highlighted by the medical profession. They include because it is dark. If we move daylight ahead and allow relief for sufferers of seasonal affective disorder and people to do all those wonderful social activities and go reduction in vitamin D deficiency. to sports clubs and all the rest, we will flatten that peak demand, which will mean that our national grid will not The potential for the Bill to reduce crime deserves a need so much power on standby. We will save not only Government investigation. A very high proportion of on what we use, but on the power we must keep on crime takes place under the cover of evening darkness. standby to meet peak demands. The Bill has the clear Back in 1995, a Home Office report stated that an extra potential to reduce our electricity consumption at no hour of daylight in the evening would lead to a 3% cost whatever. reduction in crime. I do not expect that crime patterns have changed all that dramatically since that survey, and a lot of opportunistic crime occurs when darkness Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): That falls, before people get home from school or work. issue is very close to my heart. Does the hon. Lady agree that the Bill would lead to savings of nearly £180 million a year on household electricity bills? That would make a Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con): My hon. significant difference to fuel poverty, which affects so Friend perhaps does herself a disservice, because there many of our constituents. has been a change. The peak in crime used to be when the pubs closed, but it is now when the schools chuck Rebecca Harris: Fuel poverty is another problem that out. Extending daylight hours to when schoolchildren we did not have at the time of the winter-only experiment are going home could have a real benefit in terms of of ’68 to ’71. That is another incredibly important crime and antisocial behaviour. reason why we need the Government to look again at 1095 Daylight Saving Bill3 DECEMBER 2010 Daylight Saving Bill 1096 the benefits and details of extending daylight hours. We least worst option for people living their lives in England, could achieve the savings to which the hon. Lady refers Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. My Bill simply at no cost. asks that the question be put to the Government, so Extensive research by the Cambridge university that we can get a clear answer on which to base our department for engineering and National Grid does not future decisions. With that, I commend the Bill to the dispute that we could cut our electricity consumption House. by at least 0.5%, which is equivalent to a wind farm of 200 very expensively produced wind turbines. I accept 10.18 pm that that is a fraction of the CO2 reduction to which we Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): It is a great pleasure are committed, but it is none the less significant, and it to follow the hon. Member for Castle Point (Rebecca can be done without the purchase of a single smart Harris), and I congratulate her on promoting the Bill in meter or a single square foot of insulation. this debate. I know that she has been inundated with hundreds and thousands of e-mails. I had a private Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): I believe that a study Member’s Bill in the previous Session, and I became by the university of Cambridge says that the change very popular very quickly. When a Member dismisses would lead to a saving of 500,000 tonnes of CO2 each most of those representations, they become unpopular, year, which would obviously help the environment. before undertaking the onerous task of taking their Bill through Parliament. The hon. Lady presented her case Rebecca Harris: The modelling from Dr Garnsey’s with a great sense of humour and a sense of purpose. team at Cambridge suggests that we could cut our The Bill is important, and I have supported such measures carbon emissions by the equivalent of taking nearly for a long time. 200,000 cars off our roads each year. That is why The hon. Lady listed supporters of the Bill in the serious environmental pressure groups such as 10:10 are excellent Library briefing. She was brave enough to so heavily behind the Bill. mention the English Football Association the day after I believe that the proposal could do a great deal of the Zurich decision, and she also mentioned the England good for our whole country, which is what I came to and Wales Cricket Board. I know that the Ashes are on this Chamber to do. I appreciate that many simply have now, although I do not know the score. If it is positive, an aversion to darker winter mornings—I confess that I I am happy to call it the England and Wales Cricket am not wild about them—and that may well turn out to Board, but if they lose the Ashes, I am happy to refer to be the crux of the issue. However, I might have a them as the England team. different perspective on darker winter mornings if I were assured that a darker start to the beginning of the Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con): I believe that working day in winter allowed, for example, millions of Australia were all out for 275. older people to have a better quality of life. If the Albert Owen: I am grateful for that information, and benefits were found by a Government review to be as I hope it continues. I am also disappointed about yesterday’s stated by the Bill’s backers—the change could mean decision. that my son and other people’s children are safer on the roads and enjoy more outdoor play; that people are Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): They were healthier and that there are more in employment; that actually all out for 245, and England survived the one more revenue comes into the Exchequer; that CO2 over, scoring one run. emissions will be cut with no extra subsidy from the taxpayer; and that I will have an extra hour of daylight Albert Owen: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for later on to enjoy as I see fit, although obviously only shining light on the situation. during recess—I might even feel quite positive about I support the Bill. I will develop an argument on the dark winter mornings. energy saving to which the hon. Lady referred, but I My Bill asks not for anything impractical or costly, make no apologies for emphasising and rehearsing some but merely for the Government to look at the evidence of the arguments she made on tourism, sports and and make a decision that is based on the facts rather leisure. In many ways, the Bill is a moderate measure, in than what is politically expedient. I accept that I may be that it simply asks the Government to conduct a a naive new Member of Parliament—in fact, after comprehensive cross-departmental review of the cost taking on this private Member’s Bill, I am convinced of benefits of the savings that could be made to the country— that—but I believe we should always strive to make she mentioned some headlines to do with that. decisions based on evidence not suspicion, fact not I think that we should advance the time by one hour prejudice, and on data and not conjecture. for part or all of the year. I support the latter, and I This is a decades-old debate, but the arguments are think that it is important that we conduct a three-year now so compelling that it would be foolish to dismiss study to establish the summer and winter comparisons. the case for change without first conducting a review of It is also important that we report back to the House. the evidence. I do not deny that there is a place for Perhaps the hon. Lady could intervene on me—although emotion in politics and some may find that emotion is she is having a private discussion at the moment—to important in the context of the Bill, but Parliament has clarify something: the Bill does not make it clear whether a responsibility, as my hon. Friends have pointed out, to the commission would have to report to the House after dictate the time by which our modern lives are regulated. the six months, so that we can have a debate and come We have a duty to every single one of the 60 million to a decision. I am sure that she will have an opportunity, residents of the United Kingdom to ensure that when as the Bill develops, to inform the House on that point. we set the time for them, we make the right choice. We It is important that the House makes a decision based must ask ourselves whether the proposal is the best or on the judgment of an independent commission. 1097 Daylight Saving Bill3 DECEMBER 2010 Daylight Saving Bill 1098

[Albert Owen] environmental, climate change and CO2 emission benefits from the reduction of CO2 would be very obvious. We I am proud that the Bill contains special measures for must take that forward. As the hon. Member for Brighton, different parts of the United Kingdom. It is important Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) said, that would help with that we consider not just the Scottish question, but the fuel poverty. I think that it is estimated that £200 million Northern Ireland one as well. It is one of the most could be saved in electricity bills alone, and adding gas north-westerly parts of the UK. It is important that we to that would make a massive difference to vulnerable consider those different parts of the UK when balancing people in this country. There are massive benefits to be the evidence. I am old enough to remember the 1960s had there. and ’70s, when this experiment was first done in great The question and answer session that the Select detail. At the time, I was—at least I thought I was—working Committee held with the academics and the national and helping out on a farm, although the farmer probably grid showed that there would be massive benefits, thought I was getting in the way at times. I remember particularly in the shoulder months of November, February that period as a child going to school and working in and March. That is when demand increases significantly. the summer months on farms at early hours of the It is worth pointing out that throughout the UK there morning, so I have some experience of that period. It is would be very little difference in demand in the months important to consider the different parts of the United of December and January, because that is when, whatever Kingdom, as well as the different parts of Government, we do with the clocks, there will be the greatest amount in order to get a full picture before making decisions. of darkness. As the hon. Lady said, the benefits outweigh any problems that might occur. There would be less crime, Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) fewer road accidents and fatalities, and increased (SNP): Does the hon. Gentleman not feel, when he recreational activities and tourism, which would provide talks about the shoulder months, that he is actually a boost for all parts of the UK, particularly those arguing for a shorter, more symmetrical period of winter north-western regions. As the hon. Member for Blackpool time, rather than the seven weeks before and the 14 weeks North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard) said, the coastal after new year that we have at the moment? areas and resorts of the UK will benefit hugely from visitors, not just from overseas, but from different parts Albert Owen: No, quite the opposite. That is why I of the UK. As somebody who represents a coastal area, pointed out that there would be little difference during I know the benefits that could be achieved. December and January. There could also be improvements in health and As the hon. Member for Castle Point pointed out, the well-being. As my right hon. Friend the Member for benefits from March to October would far outweigh Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) said, the Prime Minister is big any of the discomfort that people feel during December on a happiness index. Although happiness is difficult to and January, which are the bleak winter months. quantify, I honestly believe that the benefits of the Bill will improve the well-being of the people of the UK. I Malcolm Bruce: The proponents of the Bill are in get depressed in October when the clocks go back. danger of taking as fact research evidence that is highly Many Members will have anecdotal evidence of the qualified. After it attempted to analyse the figures, the same thing. The benefits of the Bill in the summer, from university of Cambridge used words such as “probably recreation, sport and health activities, would also be increased” and very important. “could have a range of energy benefits”. I want to refer predominantly to the energy savings. The Government said that the information was not The Energy and Climate Change Committee, of which I conclusive one or the other. am a member, conducted a mini inquiry into the matter in October. As the hon. Lady said, the energy saving Albert Owen: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for factors today represent the big difference from the that intervention, but that is not the evidence we had arguments of the 1960s and ’70s. Back then, energy most recently. security was not the big issue it is today. We had plentiful supplies of indigenous coal, and then we moved Malcolm Bruce: It is the evidence I have here. on to the benefits of North sea gas, so we did not think of energy security in the same way as we do today. Albert Owen: Well, I was the person asking the questions, Obviously, our minds have been changed by environmental and I know that the Library notes are very thick. One and climate change issues as well. That is the big difference. survey, on buildings—particularly office buildings—was It was important that the Select Committee considered not conclusive, but on domestic homes and electricity the benefits of energy savings. The positive nature of peak demands, the evidence was to the contrary, which the evidence given by the academics from the university is why I am arguing that we need to consider gas of Cambridge study and from a representative of the consumption as well as electricity demands. We would national grid was stark. I stress that the mini inquiry then get a much clearer picture to show the benefits of considered electricity demand alone. Perhaps we should energy savings. also have looked at the gas benefits. We might get the opportunity to do that in the future. As the hon. Lady Mr Foster: In responding to my right hon. Friend the said, the first thing people do in October when the Member for Gordon (Malcolm Bruce), surely the hon. clocks go back, is adjust their thermostats and the Gentleman might have pointed out that the Bill proposes timings on their gas boilers, so that gas is used much more detailed research on such matters—research that I earlier in the evening. That has an impact. Were we to am convinced will lead to the sort of evidence to which quantify gas consumption as we can electricity, the he is referring. 1099 Daylight Saving Bill3 DECEMBER 2010 Daylight Saving Bill 1100

Albert Owen: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for Mr Reid: The hon. Gentleman’s analysis is flawed his help. I will develop the argument that what we are because he is looking only at electricity. Electricity is asking for is a full review over three years, so that we used for both heating and lighting. There is evidence can have all the up-to-date evidence that we need to that lighting costs would be reduced by the change, but make a conscious decision in this House. That is an that heating costs would be increased. That means that important point, because in many ways the academic the use of other fuels—gas, oil and coal—would almost research done by Cambridge university was narrow in certainly increase, meaning that the total effect of the its remit. I was disappointed by some of the answers of change would be increased carbon emissions. the academics who had looked at the issue, although I was very much encouraged by the national grid Albert Owen: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman was representative, who talked about the energy savings that listening when I argued that we needed more evidence would be made immediately—now, today—on the basis on gas. However, one thing that is clear is that people in of the evidence and the data available to the national grid. areas that are off-grid—areas such as mine and, I am Many of the benefits in the shoulder months relate to sure, his—are paying more for fuel. Electricity is pretty the reduction in electricity used of some 1,300 MW. I universal across the United Kingdom, but there are pushed the national grid representative on what that certain areas—periphery areas in particular—that are would mean. It would mean one power station in the off the gas grid. Those areas have to pay for oil or United Kingdom closing for one hour a day during the liquefied petroleum gas, and they therefore pay more. shoulder months. That would mean a significant amount Far from the proposal being flawed, the evidence will of electricity being saved, alongside the savings in CO2, show that with an extra hour in the evenings in November, which would be in the region of 500,000 tonnes, and—I February and March, those people will use less fuel. emphasise this point again because it is important—a However, that is why the Bill is asking for a trial period. reduction in what consumers pay of some £200 million. All that evidence will be produced and will, I think, lead to the conclusion—indeed, I am certain that it will to Damian Collins: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that this conclusion, as happened with electricity—that gas there could also be a benefit from reducing the need to consumption would be reduced and energy saved if we import energy? We have an electricity link from my had that additional hour in the summer and, in particular, constituency of Folkestone and Hythe to France, from the shoulder months of the winter. which we need to import electricity at peak times just to I want to talk about the benefits that the Bill and its meet the demand. outcome—a commission for moving British summer Albert Owen: Yes, and I did mention energy security. time—would have for tourism. The United Kingdom Indeed, we can break that down and talk about has a great product to sell, but often local trade is lost in microgeneration, whereby individual houses and community the winter as people go home from work, owing to buildings send electricity back to the grid. That is all darkness falling across the United Kingdom relatively part of the wider argument about saving energy that I early. The extension of the hour in the winter months am putting forward. In moving the motion, the hon. and, in particular, the summer months would benefit Member for Castle Point made strong arguments about our tourism industry, retail outlets and sporting activities. other aspects, which I will touch on, but the energy There is a massive plus there that we need to consider saving argument is the big difference between now and when we look at the big picture. the ’60s and ’70s, and it is one that we should push. Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD): Mr MacNeil: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? We have been talking about the changing significance of the proposal since the previous experiment. Tourism Albert Owen: I will give way to the hon. Gentleman and leisure are proportionately more important, given one last time. the changing structure of our industries, so does the hon. Gentleman agree that the employment argument is Mr MacNeil: I would just like to draw the hon. now very significant? Gentleman’s attention to the evidence from the Building Research Establishment, which indicated that darkened Albert Owen: I certainly agree that tourism is increasingly mornings might lead to increased electricity consumption, important to the British economy—there is absolutely as people who switch the lights on in the morning may no doubt about that—and if we in this House can get leave them on for the rest of the day. extra benefits for it, we will be doing a good thing. Albert Owen: I responded to the right hon. Member As the hon. Member for Castle Point said in her for Gordon (Malcolm Bruce) about that survey, which opening remarks, the Bill would be proportionately looked at offices. Let us be honest: most people who put beneficial to Scotland, Northern Ireland and periphery their lights on in the offices do not pay the bills, so they areas. It is important for the United Kingdom to have are reluctant to come into line. However, households do more even economic development for those areas. This have to pay those bills, so there is a difference, particularly Bill offers a win-win situation for areas in Scotland, in a climate where energy prices are rising for domestic Northern Ireland and my constituency in north-west households. That survey was about major office buildings. Wales. As the hon. Lady also said, the nature of what A lot of those office buildings were built in the ’60s or the study in the ’60s looked at has changed. Agriculture ’70s, and do not have proper insulation, so they are not trends have changed considerably, through mechanisation very good buildings in the first instance. However, the and vehicle transport. That is why the National Farmers national grid representative made it absolutely clear Union of England and Wales is now neutral—it is not that peak demand would be reduced if there was an hostile—on the Bill, and why the National Farmers extension to British summer time. Union of Scotland is in favour. That is hugely beneficial. 1101 Daylight Saving Bill3 DECEMBER 2010 Daylight Saving Bill 1102

Mr Reid: It is only fair to put on record the fact that Albert Owen: I agree that there is an argument about in its response, the National Farmers Union of Scotland summer football, which the hon. Gentleman is making heavily stressed the study aspect of the Bill. It was not from a sedentary position, but cricket has traditionally in favour of the clock change, but stressed the need for a dominated the summer period—particularly in England— study before anything else was done. while football dominates the winter. Also, we now have the Twenty20 series throughout the year, so perhaps we Albert Owen: The hon. Gentleman is right to put that could review that position. That is not a matter for this on the record, but again he is enhancing my argument Bill, however. in favour of the Bill. The National Farmers Union of The Bill would allow us to take a massive positive Scotland was very much against the proposal in the ’60s step. Although the measure is moderate, its outcomes and ’70s, but it now wants a study because it believes would be profound. that there could be overall benefits. That is a huge move on the part of an organisation that in many ways is slow Mr MacNeil: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? to change its policies. There are, of course, other arguments used by opponents Albert Owen: I will not give way. I shall finish my of the Bill. One is that they would feel less British, speech now so that other people can have the opportunity which I mentioned in an earlier intervention. I am an to speak. ex-seafarer. I know how important GMT is to the I believe that the measures would increase our well-being. world. However, that would remain exactly the same, In the spirit of cross-party support here, I believe that and for the months of March to October we move to we should look at the happiness agenda. I think that European time anyway, so that one can be dismissed having a barbecue at 11.30 pm, using clean coal and pretty easily— perhaps serving some salad dishes in the summer would increase the well-being and happiness of people throughout Mr Roger Gale (North Thanet) (Con) rose— the United Kingdom—

Albert Owen—although I am sure that the hon. Mr MacNeil: Low carbon! Gentleman will argue to the contrary. Albert Owen: I did say “clean coal”. The hon. Gentleman Mr Gale: I am entirely in support of everything that is always jumping in; he is a bit too keen. I was talking the hon. Gentleman is saying. Setting aside the Daily about clean coal, and eating salads and healthy dishes Mail’s xenophobia for a moment, the editor of the Mail so that we can participate in sport. The measure would might like to recognise that there is one little corner of a increase the well-being of the people in the United foreign field—Gibraltar, which could not be more British— Kingdom, and that is what we have been sent to this that is on that time the year round. House for. I am happy to support the Bill and happy to help to take it forward in the House. Albert Owen: I am extremely grateful to the hon. Gentleman, and I am sorry that I misread him. He and 10.41 am I do not agree on quite a few issues, but I am very happy Mr Roger Gale (North Thanet) (Con): I congratulate to have him on side on this one. He mentioned the Daily my hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point (Rebecca Mail. It is only fair to mention the Daily Express, which Harris) on introducing this very sensible measure. I has been actively campaigning for the Bill and for extra have a sneaking feeling that Sir Bernard Braine would daylight hours in the evenings. I thank him for giving be extremely proud, were he around to hear her speak me the opportunity to point that out, and he is absolutely today. The point has been made, and it will be made right about parts of Europe and Gibraltar. again, that, if the proposal before us were adopted, it I want to draw my remarks to a conclusion. This is a would enhance tourism and road safety, that it would good Bill. It is a good idea, and it would be good for the be very good for sport and for the economy of the United Kingdom. However, I want to see those independent British isles as a whole, and that it would probably analyses of the four nations, which will be important in enhance the happiness and well-being of the nation making our mind up. This is not an anti-Scottish Bill; generally. That is why I wholeheartedly support my hon. it is a pro-UK Bill. It would benefit the whole of the Friend’s Bill, and why I believe that we should come United Kingdom. The proposals would reduce energy into line with Gibraltar time and adopt this measure. consumption. The evidence relating to electricity I want to cover just one issue briefly. My friend, the demonstrates that, and there would also be benefits for right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field) raised gas consumption. Crime would also be reduced, because the possibility of Scotland exercising a choice in this opportunist crime peaks during October and November matter. I do not think that that is a ridiculous or when it gets dark before people come home from work, improper suggestion, and I do not think that it would in so their properties are empty after nightfall. any way damage the unity of the United Kingdom. The hon. Member for Castle Point mentioned the Scotland has its own Parliament and it takes its own reduction of accidents and fatalities on our roads, and decisions. It is certainly marginally true that there are it is essential that we address that point in the Bill. The areas in the far north of Scotland that would be a little increase in tourism would be very positive, as would the more affected by these proposals than anywhere else in increase in sports and leisure. Who likes going to a the United Kingdom. I am not speaking as a founder football match in the winter when it gets dark early and member of the Rebuild Hadrian’s Wall Society, but it is they have to put the floodlights on by half-time? incorrect to say that the concept of having one time zone south of the wall, or border, and another on the Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con): Or at the kick-off. other side of it is unacceptable. 1103 Daylight Saving Bill3 DECEMBER 2010 Daylight Saving Bill 1104

A gentleman in the Library called Oliver Bennett has 10.47 am been extremely helpful to us all, and we should thank Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): I do him for his hard work on this subject. He has advised not intend to say a great deal, but I want to address a me that, over the four mainland time zones in the couple of the issues from the perspective of someone United States, there are inevitably towns in which crossing who represents one of the most northerly constituencies a bridge can take someone from one time zone to in the UK. I must confess that I approached this issue another. One such town has two time zones separated with a very open mind. After 40 years, it is always worth by a river. That happens and it is manageable. Indeed, looking at an issue again with fresh eyes in the light of my hon. Friend the Member for South Thanet (Laura changing times, and I have therefore listened very carefully Sandys)—I hope that she catches your eye in due course, to the lobbyists, spoken to the stakeholders and looked Mr Deputy Speaker—and I represent part of the United at the evidence. I live in the far north of Scotland and I Kingdom that is 25 miles away from a different time represent people who will be disproportionately impacted zone for part of the year. That is 30 minutes away by by the proposed change, however, and I have to say that train, and the difference is perfectly manageable. It is I remain decidedly ambivalent about the potential benefits not an impossibility. In the United States, the Department and unpersuaded by some of the evidence that I have seen. of Transportation is, curiously, responsible for determining I have also been approached by numerous constituents whether a county should change from one time zone to —just ordinary citizens who are not part of any lobby another. group—who are worried about the impact of the proposals on their quality of life. They tell me how the measure Mr David Hamilton (Midlothian) (Lab): That is also could compromise their safety. One of my main concerns true of the Soviet Union, or Russia, where there are with the evidence that I have seen and heard is that an 11 time zones, often separated by rivers and bridges. awful lot of it is simulated, as the right hon. Member for Having different time zones is undesirable, however, in a Gordon (Malcolm Bruce) pointed out. It is speculative, small country such as the United Kingdom. Surely the and it is not based on empirical data. It does not take hon. Gentleman is not suggesting that it would be into account other relevant attendant factors that can desirable for the UK. influence this process, such as the weather. I have been slightly bemused this week to observe how a light Mr Gale: I am not necessarily saying that it is desirable; dusting of snow in central London seems to have brought I am saying that it is practicably possible, if that is what the metropolis to a standstill. However, many parts of the Scots want. the country are experiencing very severe weather at present, and I think it brings home to many of us just how dangerous it can be to travel in icy conditions. Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): If separate time zones were operating across the UK, The local authority in the area that I represent grits would the hon. Gentleman be in favour of retaining the the roads during seven months of the year. Driving BBC news on Greenwich mean time or on summer before dawn is dangerous, not because it is dark but time? because the roads are icy. In the dead of winter, there are many days on which the mercury is never going to rise above zero, but on most winter days, the temperature Mr Gale: I think that the BBC will do what it has will rise after sunrise, and as the sun gets up, the roads continued to do for a very long time, and live in the become less hazardous. I have to confess that the thought past. of having to drive on icy roads does not fill me with I was saying to the hon. Member for Midlothian relish. That concern is shared by many people who live (Mr Hamilton) that it is practicably possible to have and work in northern climates. It is not just road safety different time zones, and that if the Scots, who have issues that are of concern. Hon. Members have mentioned their own Parliament, genuinely choose, having consulted the problem of kids standing around waiting for school the people who elect them, to adopt a different time buses in the cold and the dark. We have bitter, dreich, zone, there is practicably no reason why they should not nasty winter mornings that are already bad. Taking the do so. It works right across the United States and across time back an hour further would make that even more Europe, and we have already established that Gibraltar unpleasant. is in a different time zone from the United Kingdom The other factor that has not been considered is that, although it proudly flies the Union flag. when the experiment took place in the 1960s, road fatalities in the north of Scotland did, indeed, increase. Mr MacNeil: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? That happened despite the fact that, during the same period, speed limits, drink-driving legislation and seat belts were introduced. Unless we believe that none of Mr Gale: I am going to conclude now; a lot of other those measures had any impact on road safety, we have people want to speak. When the hon. Member for the to take some of the evidence on road safety with a big Western Isles—I wish I could remember the proper pinch of salt. Early mornings are a hazardous time to name of his constituency; I did it the other day, but I be on the roads. We cannot just isolate the one issue of cannot remember it now—rises to speak, I urge him to darkness and extrapolate from that without considering consider, instead of seeking to impose a rejection of the wider context. change on the whole of the United Kingdom, the fact that there is a perfectly viable alternative. If he and Malcolm Bruce: Does the hon. Lady agree that hon. those whom he represents, and those in the Scottish Members who represent southern constituencies should Parliament, chose to go down that alternative road, he realise that what she is describing are the conditions we might find that quite a lot of people on the Government currently experience, and that they will experience them Benches would be perfectly willing to support him. if we have this experiment? 1105 Daylight Saving Bill3 DECEMBER 2010 Daylight Saving Bill 1106

Dr Whiteford: I could not agree more with the right Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) for his comments about the hon. Gentleman. He has experience, as I do, of getting work of the Energy and Climate Change Committee, up in the dark, going to work and school in the dark which has recently considered the issue. I was impressed and coming home in the dark. The ontological reality to see a significant proportion of the members of the that we live with is that there is a limited amount of Environmental Audit Committee, on which I sit, present. daylight. As small child, I was very fond of a poem by It also appreciates the potential benefits of the measure. Robert Louis Stevenson that begins: The 10:10 Lighter Later campaign has certainly been “In winter I get up at night very active. Little did I know that when I met a member And dress by yellow candle-light. of that campaign during the general election, I would In summer, quite the other way, be standing here in December debating the issue. I even Ihavetogotobedbyday.” managed to convince a number of my constituents to spend a significant proportion of their time phoning I empathised with the child in the poem, who had to be hon. Members yesterday to exhort them to stay for today’s carted off to bed when it was still time to be playing debate. I thank all those people from my constituency outside. As I get older, it is becoming very clear to me who did so—I spoke to a good number of them yesterday that getting up in what feels like the middle of the night afternoon. I particularly congratulate those who have in the far north is not pleasant and it is not good for our struggled through the snow to be here today. well-being, health or happiness. Such a measure will None of the individuals, businesses or organisations lead to danger and misery for people who live in the north. that are supporting this examination and analysis are supporting change for change’s sake. What we want is a Rebecca Harris: I am very sympathetic to the concerns cross-departmental analysis of the potential benefits of of the hon. Lady and her constituents. As she will see, I a new, updated trial, so that any evidence is based on have drafted my Bill carefully to ensure to that exactly modern statistics and current thinking and analysis, those factors are taken into account, so that there will rather than on information from the late 1960s. Much be no danger of any change taking place to the disbenefit has changed since the last trial—in particular, farming of any part of the United Kingdom. I hope that she will technology.As I come from a reasonably rural constituency look at the science of the road safety experts, who say and have family links to the farming industry, that that even in the shortest mid-winter days in the north of measure was obviously of concern. However, the the country, there will be a saving. In parts of Scotland, agricultural community has rowed back from its earlier children go to school in the dark already. At least this position. At worst, it is now neutral on the subject, and measure would mean that they come home in the light, some members of the farming community are positive during the lighter period of the day. about the possibility of a new trial. Importantly, as a member of the Environmental Audit Dr Whiteford: I am afraid the reality is that there is a Committee, I know that there are new considerations limited amount of daylight. Children are already dealing that were not uppermost in people’s minds in the ’60s with the fact that there is half-light. The measure will and ’70s. I was pleased to hear the Committee’s Chairman, not make any difference to that. The only difference is hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Joan Walley), that we will have to get up even earlier. We can debate make the point about the impact that the measure could whether the prospect of separate time zones across the have on CO emissions. It has massive potential benefits UK is realistic or not. 2 for the UK’s carbon footprint and, indeed, for individual domestic energy bills. More than a 2% reduction in CO2 Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): Will emissions during winter is a significant improvement. I the hon. Lady give way? am sure that we are all committed in this House to meeting challenging environmental targets. That could Dr Whiteford: Not just now because I am winding up. be done, via this measure, at no cost. We have to think very seriously about the logistics of I admit that Romsey and Southampton North is having separate time zones. The reality is that we could about as southern a constituency as there is, and I am all get up a bit later, and start schools and work at 10 convinced that we will have some interesting and o’clock. However, that would be very difficult for those enlightening contributions from some of the more northerly people who work for UK-wide organisations and who Members shortly. However, there are many options to have difficulty in changing the time of day when they do consider: balancing the time change around the winter things. The benefits of the measure are rather untested solstice; having a permanent change to British summer and are outweighed by the dangers of driving in hazardous time, so that my constituents who remain concerned conditions, which have not been properly considered. about the difficulties of having to change their clocks Some of the evidence we have heard demonstrates that twice a year could avoid it; and the proposal advocated the methodology is rather flawed and the evidence is by Lighter Later, which would involve a move to GMT+1 incomplete. I ask hon. Members to think carefully and GMT+2. All those ideas are in the mix and are before imposing the measure across the UK. worthy of proper analysis. If such a measure was good enough for a coalition 10.54 am Government during the second world war, it is good enough for a coalition Government to examine now. Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) (Con): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point (Rebecca Harris) on introducing the Bill. 10.57 am She may have drawn accusations that she is a barbecue- Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) obsessed southerner but, considering today’s temperature, (SNP): I, too, congratulate the hon. Member for Castle that seems irrelevant. I thank the hon. Member for Point (Rebecca Harris) on being successful in the ballot. 1107 Daylight Saving Bill3 DECEMBER 2010 Daylight Saving Bill 1108

I wish she had chosen something else but, nevertheless, sometimes feel that we are doing battle with the forces she has perhaps chosen her specialist subject. As a of darkness—I look directly across the Chamber at the result, some of us are here fielding or batting in the hon. Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood). opposite direction. Some Members will imagine that I am participating in I am happy once again to be debating the subject of this debate merely to indulge in what is claimed to be changing when the clocks go back in the United Kingdom. the perennial Scottish ritual of opposing any changes to I think this is the third time I have participated in such a the clocks, but that is not true. debate since being elected in 2005. The matter seems to A similar idea was defeated in this House in 1970—this return to the House fairly regularly. As hon. Members may help the hon. Member for North Thanet (Mr Gale) may assume, I will not argue in favour of the change, —when the then Member for the Western Isles, the late which will have a disproportionate effect on my part of Donald Stewart, started his Commons speaking career the world. That is not to say that I am resistant to by opposing this very argument 40 years and a day ago, change. I am happy for there to be a compromise. I on 2 December 1970, when I was a mere babe in arms of would like the period of winter time to be changed from five months. I was reminded of it by one of the Doorkeepers, 21 weeks to perhaps 10 weeks. Rather than seven weeks Mr Robin Fell from the Serjeant at Arms office. He was before mid-winter and 14 weeks after mid-winter, there working in the Commons at the time, and such is his should be five weeks either side of mid-winter. That impressive institutional memory that he remembered might be a compromise that we could live with. the debate. Donald Stewart said: Moving to central European time would be a mistake “Public opinion polls would indicate that there is a case for given our longitude. That fact is exacerbated by the abolishing British Standard Time.” latitude differences within the United Kingdom, which He went on to say: mean that the further north we travel, the shorter is the day in winter. There is a great argument for symmetry “Central European Time is really what we are discussing. It has little relevance to England and none at all to Scotland. It is either side of the mid-winter day. I hope that we will try pleasant to know that several hon. Members from English to change that. However, European directive 2000/84/EC constituencies, some of them in the south, have indicated to me seems to tie our hands to a time change on the last that they intend to vote for the abolition of British Standard Sunday in October and the last Sunday in March. That Time.”—[Official Report, 2 December 1970; Vol. 807, c. 1346.] directive seems to enshrine the asymmetry. However, it is only a directive. Given the strength of Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): I hope feeling in this place about matters European, one would that, as a Conservative and Unionist, I will not do the think that some Government Members, who are no longer hon. Gentleman’s credibility any damage by agreeing in opposition, as they were when I last time spoke about with that point. Some Members from southern this, would realise that it is not a commandment, but a constituencies may be not completely against changing directive, and perhaps do something about it. the clocks, or at least have significant concerns about it. The Bill does not seek to move the daylight, as some would have us believe: in fact, it wants to move us, the Mr MacNeil: I thank the hon. Gentleman. That is people, into the night. I ask anybody watching, wherever borne out in my next point. The result of the Division in the UK they may be—I am sure that, as the hon. on 2 December 1970 was 366 to 81. The hon. Members Member for Castle Point said, people will be riveted to for Bolsover (Mr Skinner) and for Louth and Horncastle the parliamentary channel—to imagine getting up an (Sir Peter Tapsell) were here, and they voted to abolish hour earlier today. British standard time, so I imagine that today they would be on my side of the argument. I would have had Mr Ellwood: The hon. Gentleman and I have sparred 366 Members on my side and there would have been over this issue for a number of years. I think that he 81 on the other side. I cannot see 81 in front of me inadvertently misleads the House, because in Glasgow, today, but I think that those who are most vexed by this for example, sunset today takes place just six minutes are here. after it does here in London. The statistics for his own Dawn happens when dawn happens. Supporters of constituency suggest that schoolchildren are going to the Bill have painted a picture— school in the dark and returning home in the dark. The clock change would allow at least one of those journeys to be made in the light. Were this Bill to go through, his Mr Reid: I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman adult constituents would benefit from 160 more hours a referred to the earlier debate. The fact is that we have year after work and children would benefit from 84 hours had an experiment in this country, and we do not need of daylight after school. That is a useful statistic for his another one. From reading the Hansard of that debate, constituents to be aware of. it is obvious that members of the public were writing in their droves to their MPs demanding that this awful Mr MacNeil: If the hon. Gentleman’s argument is for experiment be stopped. The experiment failed, and we one hour, why does he not extend that logic to two, should move on. three, four or eight hours? Perhaps we could have our daylight at 4 o’clock in the afternoon when we have all Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely correct. finished work so that we had more leisure time at the There are of course the interested parties—the busybodies, end of day. That would be the logical conclusion of his perhaps—but most people feel that this is just Westminster argument. going through its contortions yet again. This is the third The crux of the matter is that people getting up an time that this has come before the House in five years, hour earlier face the darkness of the morning for another and people feel that it is not as serious as it might seem hour. As I make this argument for the third time, I or not as serious as it could be if the mistake is made. 1109 Daylight Saving Bill3 DECEMBER 2010 Daylight Saving Bill 1110

[Mr MacNeil] In 1968, the image that was often painted was one of slimmer people, the elderly feeling safer, more tourists, The experiment has happened not only here but in more money in our pockets and more lives being saved Portugal, in the 1990s. Portugal’s dawn is about the during the winter. Those arguments have not changed same time as dawn here. Its daylight hours would have since the ’60s. been longer, but people changed back, I presume, because of the disbenefits in the morning. The experiment has Nicola Blackwood (Oxford West and Abingdon) (Con): happened not once, but twice, and people have changed Does the hon. Gentleman agree that something significant back both times. has changed since 1968, which is that we face catastrophic climate change and an energy crisis? This measure has Albert Owen: I am reluctant to go with the Portuguese the potential to take the equivalent of 172,000 cars off example, but it happened because Portugal had extra the roads. Does he not think that that alone merits at benefits already, so that is not a strong argument. I do least a trial? not think we should be discussing Portugal today, because the only thing that it has in common with England is Mr MacNeil: A number of things have indeed changed that both lost the FIFA bid. The hon. Gentleman said since the 1970s; of course, I have aged 40 years. The that he was happy to compromise and to move forward. hon. Lady is incorrect in the assumptions that underlie All that this Bill is asking is that there is an analysis of her intervention. I will try to come to those matters cost benefits and a trial period. Surely, in the spirit of later; if I do not, I will be happy to take another compromise that he mentions, he should support this intervention. measure. The report to Cabinet spoke of a reduction in Scottish resistance to the idea, as we heard again today, save in Mr MacNeil: The trial period is the dangerous part. the rural areas, which I come from, of course—the Outer A trial period of three years is quite a large percentage Hebrides—but two and a half years later, on 2 December of somebody’s life. I would be happier if something 1970, it was all change. When people had been through could be done about the EU directive. Rather than the experiment, in its third winter, it was resoundingly plunge people in Scotland into misery, we could turn defeated in the Commons—let me reiterate—by 366 the other way, look south-east towards Belgium—towards to 81. Brussels and the EU—and move forward with greater Portugal, as we have mentioned, has dawn around security, but instead we will be shoehorned into this by the same time as us. Regardless of what the clock might interests in the south of England aligning with interests say, the sun rises in Portugal at around the same time as in the EU and plunging Scotland into darkness. it does in London—when I say us, I mean this House. Portugal changed back after its experiment in the 1990s, Mr Ellwood rose— and the 1968 arguments seem to be based on today’s model of simulated modelling and supposition. When Mr MacNeil: The forces of darkness are back again. we have empirical examples, I feel that the arguments are not borne out at all. Mr Ellwood: The hon. Gentleman says that he is That was the past and now we have a raft of statistics representing his seat and Scotland by claiming that we to add to this version of the time change argument. are going to plunge them into misery. How does he However, in my office we have taken some time to look square that with the three recent polls in Scotland in at the statistics and we have compiled a number of which people said they favoured this move, and with the issues that apply to our situation. First, the arguments fact that the farmers, who were the big opponents of about potential increases to the tourism sector are this change, have now decided to embrace it because in based on several assumptions, most importantly that many cases they have moved into the world of tourism? people here and abroad will choose to spend their disposable income on holidaying in the UK. Surely a Mr MacNeil: I draw the hon. Gentleman’s attention bigger factor is temperature. After all, it is winter. If the to an Ipsos MORI poll on changing the clocks, which argument about tourist numbers is so strong, why not showed that 19% of people in Scotland were in favour move the clocks two, three or four hours, as I have said? and 28% of people in London were in favour. The Why not have dawn at 5 o’clock? average throughout the UK was 25%, so the polling evidence is not as conclusive as he suggests. Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): On the point about people wanting to barbecue, for example, at Mr David Hamilton: Is not the fact that very few half 11 at night, it is quite possible to do that on the central Scotland MPs, and no MPs from the borders, north coast in Northern Ireland. Not many people do, are here an indication that this is not the major issue in generally, because it is quite chilly at that time of night. Scotland that the hon. Gentleman makes it out to be? I have to say that he does not speak for Scotland. Albert Owen: Put a cardy on.

Mr MacNeil: In all areas and at all times there is a Mr MacNeil: Once again, we have the voice of experience difference of opinion. The reason many of them are not versus the voice of hope. Experience often triumphs here is probably that they and their constituents do not over hope, I have to say. I worry that hon. Members think that this change will really happen—that it is just who mention carbon savings in one breath are talking Westminster going through a debate. If constituents in the next breath about having a barbecue late at night. did think it was going to happen, we might indeed have I wonder whether we have any data on the impact of the 366 Members here to debate against 81. I am glad that increased number of barbecues in Castle Point—or, the hon. Gentleman agrees that that is possible. indeed, in Ynys Môn. 1111 Daylight Saving Bill3 DECEMBER 2010 Daylight Saving Bill 1112

The sleight of hand is that we are not moving the Mr MacNeil: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman dawn about. We are actually moving ourselves by changing for that intervention. He makes a point that I perhaps the clocks. Clocks, which started by measuring time, have not fully thought about, but it is worth putting on end up governing lives, and we are moving ourselves the record. into the night. Such was the misery in the third winter I have a serious issue with the proposition that lighter that this House voted to end it with 366 votes. I would evenings will automatically increase the tourism money like to point out—I am looking at a couple of other coming in to the various isles and decrease obesity—that highland Members—that even with the best will in the is, that if it is lighter outside, people might want to get world we do not have 366 Members of Parliament from up and go out and exercise. There are various other the Scottish highlands. Indeed, we do not have 366 reasons for doing that, however. Members of Parliament from the whole of Scotland. We therefore must conclude that the decision was made On the environmental aspects of changing the clocks, not on a Scottish basis, but on the basis of experience—and, I have an issue with the arguments that changing the I would say, grim experience—throughout the United clocks will foster a decrease in energy use. We have not Kingdom. been able to find any domestic studies that use empirical data, but we have found studies from the United States I have a letter here, and some people might think that that recorded the use of energy during daylight saving it has come from Callanish in Lewis, from Castlebay in time. In 2008, a study was conducted in the state of Barra, from Tobermory, from Isla or just from somewhere Indiana. Indiana has 6.4 million inhabitants and, else in Scotland, but—no—it comes from Chester. It geographically, it is probably approximately the same says, size as the UK. Its GDP is comparable with that of this “Dear Angus MacNeil, country. Indiana is interesting for this argument because I listened to you on BBC Radio 4’s ‘Costing the Earth’ on certain counties were able to use daylight saving time Wednesday. whereas others were not. Please do all you can to defeat the moves to bring in year round The study found that household costs and energy summer time. In 1968-71 I was a schoolchild and we detested consumption increased owing to people heating their it”— homes in the colder winter mornings, doubtless wanting the word “detested” is underlined— to rise to a warmer home to counter the feeling of “It was pitch black when going to school. (You may quote me darkness and gloom outside. The empirical data from on this detestation).” Indiana say something different from the data we are hearing. I hope, Mr Roger Croston, that I have done you justice in doing that—[Interruption.] I was expecting an intervention. Any sound I hear, I expect an intervention. Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): The hon. Gentleman cites many trials and much evidence in his speech, and On sporting issues, the same tourism study concluded he clearly feels passionate about this. By not voting for that more people would go out if it was lighter later, but this Bill, however, is he not denying the one thing that it also showed that the number of people participating really matters, which is for this provision to be tested in in athletics was fairly constant during the year. The the United Kingdom for the people of the United athletics events in which numbers fell were those that Kingdom? took place outside, such as sailing, which is also very temperature dependent. Mr MacNeil: If we could conduct a trial without going through the inevitable misery and changing back, Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con): Does the I would agree. I am tempted to suggest that the hon. hon. Gentleman agree that although people who participate Gentleman conduct his own personal trial this winter in competitive sport are probably fairly consistent in and get up an hour earlier. He could come back to me in their participation, it is those with the “jumpers for the spring and tell me how the experience went. I could goalposts” mentality—the people who take part in see him in the autumn again and see whether he wanted spontaneous sport—who will greatly benefit from lighter to go through the trial once more. I wager that he would evenings? not, but I shall leave that suggestion as it is. Darker mornings will mean sunrise at 10 am for Mr MacNeil: I am tempted to say that perhaps people many people. Indeed, London’s sunrise will be at quarter should get up an hour earlier if they are that motivated. to 9. Let us consider some of the sunrise times in the Let us assume for a second that the hon. Gentleman UK this morning, starting in Scotland. In Aberdeen, has an argument and that he is right—why not go for sunrise was 8.26 am, with a length of day of seven the compromise of five weeks either side? Without hours and five minutes. In Edinburgh, it was 8.22 am, inconveniencing people in Scotland and perhaps in with a length of day of seven hours and 20 minutes. In other areas, such as Chester, we could reduce the “winter” London, it was 7.46 am, with a length of day of eight period by 10 weeks. That would help us on to a more hours and seven minutes—almost an hour more daylight secure stepping stone than the present suggestion. than in Aberdeen, due to the effect of latitude. That would leave London with sunrise at quarter to 9. Let me Malcolm Bruce: Although I would support that move, draw attention to the west coast of Scotland. Stornoway does the hon. Gentleman not realise that one reason it had sunrise at 10 to 9 today, which would of course would be resisted by other members of the European become 10 to 10. Tobermory, which some people might Union is that France, Spain and the Benelux countries think is quite close to Stornoway, has a difference of are in the wrong time zone and could not tolerate the 13 minutes in its sunrise, which is 13 minutes earlier, and dark mornings being extended further back? sunset is nine minutes later. 1113 Daylight Saving Bill3 DECEMBER 2010 Daylight Saving Bill 1114

Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con): The of seat belts, speed limits and drink-driving laws. Let us, hon. Gentleman cited some times, but how long does however, consider the difference between accident rates that situation last in those places? in Berlin and Paris, which are in the same time zone although, as one is further west, it presumably has Mr MacNeil: The hon. Lady leads me nicely on to the lighter evenings. The accident rates in Paris and Berlin next part of my speech. In this, I am not only a Scottish are 31.8 and 14 per million of population respectively, nationalist—I feel the mantle of English nationalism, which shows that there are not necessarily fewer accidents too. I care for the good people of England and I care where there are lighter evenings. When we compare the that for two months of the year, in the area north of rate in Paris with that in London—[Interruption.] Members Manchester, they would not see sunrise before 9 o’clock may not like it, but these are the data. The accident rate in the morning. Somebody has to speak up for the good in Paris, with its lighter evenings, is 31.8 per million, people of England and I am happy to do that, come whereas in London it is 23.9 per million. The evidence is what may. certainly not conclusive; it should be balanced with other evidence. Sir Alan Beith: I should hate to leave the hon. Gentleman with that burden unaided. Do his constituents, like Rebecca Harris: When it comes to accident statistics, mine, have the experience of seeing many children waiting the only evidence that matters is the differential between at the roadside for school transport? Some are dropped what happens in the darker mornings and the lighter by taxis from more remote locations and left to wait for afternoons. All the hon. Gentleman’s arguments point the school bus. One of people’s real concerns is that if in one direction: the Government should conduct a the clocks were changed, that would have to be done in proper cost-benefit analysis. Every point that he has the dark on many more occasions. made demonstrates that there are genuine concerns in parts of the country, and that is precisely why we should Mr MacNeil: The right hon. Gentleman has made a put the argument to bed once and for all—unless, as I very good point. That is also one of my concerns, but I suspect, the hon. Gentleman rather welcomes this annual should like to see a compromise. I wish that others discussion. would meet me halfway, rather than railroading us into a situation that we would not enjoy. Mr MacNeil: I have to say that I would much rather Let me return to the issue of Indiana for a moment. be in the outer Hebrides than in London on this Friday The Indiana experiment showed that people spent an morning. additional £5.5 million on energy— Mr Reid rose—[Laughter.] Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. The hon. Gentleman mentioned a compromise. He has been Mr MacNeil: I have probably just missed a decent speaking for quite a long time, and he has the right to quip in the Chamber, but I am happy to give way to the do so, but many other Members wish to speak as well, hon. Gentleman. and I know that he wishes to allow them to do so.

Mr MacNeil: One thing that I am certainly not trying Mr Reid: I am sorry to keep the hon. Gentleman to do, Mr Deputy Speaker, is talk the Bill out. That is away from the flight home to Barra, but he is right not a parliamentary tactic of which I approve. However, about the accident statistics. The experiment lasted some may think my speech long-winded, and I apologise from 1968 until 1971. I have the official Department for for that. At your instigation, Mr Deputy Speaker, I Transport figures relating to deaths on the roads in shall try to proceed a wee bit more quickly. Great Britain. There was indeed a substantial fall between 1967 and 1968, but, as the hon. Gentleman pointed out, Safety is an important aspect of this issue, but data that was due to the introduction of the breathalyser. If relating to the saving of lives are often based on projection. the clock change had been responsible for a reduction As was pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for in the number of deaths, there would have been substantial Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford), changes were made increases after the experiment finished, but that did not in the 1960s. We know that the most dangerous hours of happen. the day are 8 am and 3 pm. The Bill would send 8 am further back into the darkness, although 3 pm would probably not be affected, as it is always light at that time. Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman has neatly completed a picture of which we had probably been given only half. The other half is very interesting. Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): Is it not time that we scotched the myth about the rate of road accidents I agree with the hon. Member for Castle Point about in Scotland during the experiment? Does the hon. the need for an analysis. I have given facts relating to Gentleman accept that the overall reduction in the Paris, Berlin and London. However, I do not want any number of fatalities and serious injuries was 11% in analysis that would involve changing our clocks and England and Wales and 17% in Scotland—a significantly making us undergo three years of misery before the higher number? A very small increase in the north of clocks were inevitably changed back again. It seems Scotland was massively outweighed by the overall decrease that once the memory of 40 years ago has dimmed, a in the mornings throughout Scotland. new generation must learn painfully and slowly over three miserable winters that this is the wrong thing Mr MacNeil: As was pointed out by my hon. Friend to do. the Member for Banff and Buchan—the new Madame I am trying to proceed with my speech reasonably Ecosse—the statistic was greatly affected by the introduction quickly, Mr Deputy Speaker. 1115 Daylight Saving Bill3 DECEMBER 2010 Daylight Saving Bill 1116

According to a 2005 survey by Ipsos Mori, Scots are Perhaps the word “kamikaze” could be attached to in favour of lighter evenings. That is true: we are in Mr Peter Hitchens; I have no idea. However, if Mr Peter favour of lighter evenings. However, only 19% of Scots Hitchens is on my side, I welcome that. What an eminently who were polled want the clocks to move back permanently. sensible man Mr Peter Hitchens must be. [Interruption.] Of course, some people might be in favour of Christmas I have just been told my hon. Friend the Member for every week, but they realise that that cannot happen. Banff and Buchan that I did not want to say that. Similarly, we might want lighter evenings, but we know Hansard, strike it from the record! [Laughter.] It seems that the earth tilts. We know that we will have cold and that Mr Peter Hitchens has been a torpedo to my frost. argument, whoever he is. I have raised all those issues in order to challenge Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): I data that have been used to suggest that opposition to have been enjoying the hon. Gentleman’s speech this idea has all but evaporated. It has not evaporated. enormously. I think that he has identified the nub of the Eminently sensible members of all parties—and, it would problem, which is simply that there is not enough seem, eminently sensible scribes in certain newspapers—are daylight in the winter, and there is remarkably little that backing the argument against this move. Government—or even a sovereign Parliament—can do about it. The Bill offers an even-handed new approach, save one part. It has much merit therefore, and the hon. Mr MacNeil: I welcome that sensible point from a Member for Castle Point has conducted herself very new Member whom I admire enormously. I want to put well in making her arguments, and I have enjoyed on record the fact that I have really enjoyed his contributions. engaging in discussion with her. Changing the clocks I think that I detected some agitation among Labour will definitely advantage the south of England, while Members when I paid the hon. Gentleman that compliment! sunrise in Manchester and areas north of there will see As I was saying, people might be in favour of x, y or z, sunrise after 9 o’clock for two months of the year. I was but they know exactly how things pan out in reality. therefore surprised to note that there is no geographical requirement regarding the membership of the commission The National Farmers Union of Scotland has discussed that will implement the change in the clocks. I hope— the issue. Incidentally, when Donald Stewart spoke indeed, I am sure—the Bill will not pass, but under its about the issue, he said that he presumed “NFU” to provisions the commission’s membership would be selected refer to the National Farmers Union of England and by the Business Secretary, and we could have a commission Wales—which, for some reason, does not brand itself comprising 12 people from London, Dover or Blackpool, properly—rather than the National Farmers Union of for instance. Scotland. Anyway, if we are to believe newspaper reports, it seems that every farmer in Scotland is in favour of There is also no provision in respect of the Scottish change. One newspaper stated: Government or Parliament, and I was very pleased to “Scott Walker, NFU Scotland policy director, said today that hear the hon. Member for North Thanet (Mr Gale) the organisation had softened its stance towards the move, which arguing for more powers for the Scottish Parliament. I would see clocks shunted forward by an hour throughout the year say to him, “Join me, brother, and let us have all powers while retaining the changing of clocks forward in March and pertaining to Scotland moved from here to Holyrood”, back in October. which is the rightful place and the most democratic If people can put a good argument forward to us as to why forum in which to discuss Scottish matters. The hon. there should be change, we’re not going to be the ones who stand Gentleman might be coming my way a little bit. I in the way of that change, if it’s for everyone else’s benefit”. welcome that and hope that he will move further in my That is not a resounding “yes” to change; it is only a direction. “yes” to listening. I, too, am willing to listen, but I ask those on the other side not to indulge in a kamikaze Mr Gale: I do not want to go too far off-piste, but I leap— happen to be in favour of four national Parliaments and a United Kingdom Senate. The hon. Member for Na Ben Gummer (Ipswich) (Con) rose— h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) has not yet mentioned whether this matter has been discussed in the Scottish Mr MacNeil: I hope that the hon. Gentleman is not Parliament, and whether the issue of time zones has going to indulge in a kamikaze leap. been considered. Ben Gummer: The hon. Gentleman is manfully presenting arguments against what seem to be manifestly sensible Mr MacNeil: I understand that it has not been debated reasons for moving the times of day. May I put to him in the Scottish Parliament, because they think this is an argument that has not been put so far? The unofficial one of the normal Westminster convulsions that happen opposition to the Bill appears to have been mobilised from time to time. I am not sure whether people there by Mr Peter Hitchens. Is that not the clincher in favour are taking what is happening in Westminster particularly of a successful passage for the Bill, or does the seriously. That might surprise people in Westminster of hon. Gentleman wish to find himself in alliance with course, but for many people Westminster is not the Mr Hitchens? most serious Parliament in Scotland. There is another, which deals with health, education and many other Mr MacNeil: I am not very familiar with Mr Peter matters: the Scottish Parliament. Hitchens. I believe that he writes in The Times or the There is no provision to ensure that the Government Daily Express, or perhaps the Daily Mail. I have heard or Parliament of Scotland—or, indeed, those of Wales that Mr Peter Hitchens is involved, but I have had no or Northern Ireland—are asked to agree, or are even contact with Mr Peter Hitchens, either positive or negative. consulted, on these potential moves, which would make 1117 Daylight Saving Bill3 DECEMBER 2010 Daylight Saving Bill 1118

[Mr MacNeil] of voices against this move in Scotland. I am sorry his hon. Friends were not able to find the time to join him Scottish mornings colder and more dangerous, as my and present themselves and their arguments today. hon. Friend the Member for Banff and Buchan has I first came across this issue when I was shadow described very well. Tourism Minister. I looked at it without prejudice or I realise that I have been speaking for about half an passion, and it became clear that it is very important for hour. I am not here just to rant against the data. I have the tourism industry—I say that just as the hon. Member tried to provide reasoned argument. I am not here to for Bath (Mr Foster) departs. The Tourism Alliance has talk the Bill out either; I would not do that. I am not done a lot of work on this. However, I stepped away here for purely selfish Hebridean reasons. I am here for from the specific issue of tourism and thought about Scottish reasons, and for English reasons as well. I how it might benefit or damage the whole of the country. understand more than most the effect of darker mornings. It is clear that there would be huge benefits in many As the right hon. Member for Gordon (Malcolm Bruce) corners of our lives. I studied the change’s potential said, when this Bill is foisted on the rest of the UK, impacts on British society as a whole and why the last other people will understand that too. I would propose experiment was unsuccessful. It is clear that Britain is in changing the clocks for five weeks either side of the a different place today.Our lifestyles, technologies, industries middle of winter, thereby maximising the light in the and priorities have fundamentally changed since the darkest part of the year. last experiment. Most people rise after sunrise and stay awake long after sunset, wasting one of the few things Mr David Hamilton: I understand fully that the hon. in life that are free: daylight. Essentially, this subject is Gentleman is making these arguments because of where about how we align our lives with the movement of the he comes from. If I came from that constituency I sun across the heavens. might make the same arguments. However, if the Scottish Parliament were to debate the matter and the outcome Mr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con): I believe my of the vote was that we should keep things as they are, hon. Friend’s constituency contains a community of would he want the Scottish Parliament to put in place orthodox Jewish people, as does mine in Hendon. Would separate time zones in the UK? he like to speak about how the proposed changes would affect them, particularly in the winter, but also in the Mr MacNeil: I feel the hon. Gentleman is coming on summer when their days of prayer are dictated and to good territory in that he seems to want to give more determined by sunrise and sunset? powers to the Scottish Parliament. It is a welcome move: come with me, brother, we are heading in the Mr Ellwood: My hon. Friend raises an important right direction. point. There are many groups, such as the one he has The situation is confusing. Why is there this asymmetrical just mentioned, who have concerns in respect of various period of winter change of seven weeks before mid-winter aspects of life, and those matters need to be weighed up and 14 weeks after? I have never received a reasonable in deciding on the bigger picture of whether this change explanation for that. If we could have one, or if we is worth making. The whole purpose of having this could deal with the European directive I mentioned debate and allowing the discussion to progress and earlier, we might be able to make some progress. the Government to take an interest, is to balance out I have enjoyed making this contribution, and the the various arguments and see whether the change is in numerous interventions. the interests of Britain as a whole. The idea is not new. It is not only various hon. 11.33 pm Members of the past who have brought it forward. The Romans adapted their way of life to when the sun was Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): It is a in the sky, using water clocks with various weights to pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan make sure they were up when the sun rose and went to an Iar (Mr MacNeil), and I will address some of the bed when it set. When Benjamin Franklin was ambassador points that he made later. to Paris, he commented on the fact that most Parisians The principal argument for considering changing the did not get up until midday. He then realised—this is a clocks is simple: it is about how we can best align our capitalist viewpoint—that more revenue could be made lives to maximise the benefits of daylight. The idea is by putting extra taxes on candles, because they were not new, of course, but the circumstances in which we needed in the evening. He was also encouraging people are debating the matter are new. I congratulate my hon. to take advantage of the free sunlight, however, and he Friend the Member for Castle Point (Rebecca Harris) came up with the saying, “Early to bed, early to rise on selecting this subject for her private Member’s Bill makes a man healthy, wealthy and wise.” and on outlining how the pace of change in our modern The advent of our railway system moved us on from busy world makes things different from when the subject local timings in towns and villages, as we now had to was last considered. The second key point is that there synchronise time across the entire country. This was is new evidence to support the clock change. Thirdly, measured at the Greenwich observatory, and gave rise the public are more educated in their views than ever to the now familiar Greenwich mean time. Greenwich before, and that is the case across the country, from was referenced as zero degrees longitude and 24 time Bournemouth all the way up to the constituency that zones were created around the globe, each covering the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken represents. exactly 50 degrees longitude, but as has been pointed That is reflected in the diverse range of constituencies out, not everybody adheres to that. Spain is in alignment represented by the Members who are attending this with the UK, but it chooses to operate on continental debate. The hon. Gentleman said there are an awful lot time. 1119 Daylight Saving Bill3 DECEMBER 2010 Daylight Saving Bill 1120

Joseph Johnson (Orpington) (Con): I hope my hon. Those arguments are also why Help the Aged says Friend will pay tribute in his brief history of the daylight that it wants this change. At the moment, darkness acts savings movement to Mr William Willett of my constituency as a guillotine on when the elderly are out; as soon as it of Orpington, who was among the very first to bring gets dark, they lock the doors and close up shop. They this idea to the centre of national debate. Back in 1907, are denied the opportunity to spend time in the town the sight of drawn blinds in the homes of Petts Wood, a centre doing recreational activities or working in the ward in my constituency, where he saw residents sleeping garden—darkness comes and that is it. as the town basked in sunlight, persuaded him to write his highly influential pamphlet, “The Waste of Daylight” Mr Reid: We had an experiment in the 1960s and in which he argued forcefully for the changes that were there was no clear outcome in the studies of the road introduced just a few weeks after his death in 1915, accident statistics. The Home Secretary of the day, during the first world war. I hope my hon. Friend will Reginald Maudling, said: commend his hard work in bringing this debate into our “The figures are not clear enough to base a decision upon.” national life. —[Official Report, 2 December 1970; Vol. 807, c. 1335.] So we have had the experiment and no clear figures Mr Ellwood: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for emerged, because of other factors, such as breathalysers, paying tribute to his former constituent. It is also worth seat belts and so on. Another experiment would simply mentioning Robert Pearce, MP, who was a friend of Mr result in the same unclear figure. Willett, and who then took this idea on. Mr Willett was a keen golfer and he was horrified that the golf courses Mr Ellwood: Let us just focus on that debate for a he used closed down when it got dark. He wanted them moment. Reginald Maudling did make those comments, to stay open. That was the initial thought that put the but he also read out some statistics that showed that the idea into his head of taking advantage, from a leisure number of deaths and injuries decreased during the perspective, of the evening sunlight. So we should thank period of the trial. What actually happened, as has been Robert Pearce for first bringing this matter to the attention confirmed by colleagues who are now in another place, of the House. is that the farming industry—that powerful lobby— I wish to bury some of the myths and some of the pressurised many Conservative MPs by saying, “If you headlines that we see in some of the press. We are not want those precious poster sites in our fields for the putting anywhere in the dark; we are not getting rid of general election, you must vote against this.” That is any sunshine in any form. We are transferring light one of the reasons why many chose to follow their from one part of the day to another—from the morning heart, rather than their head and said, “ We should to the evening. We are saying that, on balance, it is more oppose this motion.” The hon. Gentleman makes a useful to have that light in the evening than in the valid point, which is why we are calling for more morning. Some extreme cases have been mentioned, but information. We are encouraging the Government to for much of the year—nine months of the year—we examine the matter more closely, leading up to a trial. sleep through this asset. When we awake the sun has been out for an hour or more. If we suppose that an Mr MacNeil: I am intrigued by that last contribution. average working day ends at 5.30 pm, a clock change Has the hon. Gentleman uncovered corruption in the would result in about 300 extra hours of daylight a year Conservative party 40 years ago? in London. The figure for Glasgow would be 175 hours and the one for Shetland, at the very north of the UK, Mr Ellwood: I think I will gloss over that and move would be 160 hours. That change would be life-changing straight on to some of the other areas that have been and would have an impact on everybody. It is useful to mentioned. have that extra daylight at the end of the evening to do whatever one wants to do. The roads issue is important. There were 1,120 fewer deaths and injuries during that trial period. That is an Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): The crucial thing is: important piece of evidence. I say to the hon. Gentleman will we save lives by changing the hours at which daylight that it is also important to Scotland, because there is a starts and daylight ends? We should check that and the 27% higher risk of an accident in Scotland; more people only way we can do so is to give this a trial, 40 years on walk than use cars and so on, thus there is a greater from the previous one. If we save one life by changing likelihood of people being in danger, particularly children. our clocks, it is worth it. As I said in an intervention, the Cambridge study said that had the experiment continued, more than 3,500 people Mr Ellwood: My hon. Friend makes one of the most who died during that period would be alive today. powerful points for this argument, and it cannot be refuted by any Member or any person in any part of the Dr Whiteford: Does the hon. Gentleman accept that country. Lives will be saved, as they have been proven to he is simply displacing the problem from one end of the have been saved, through the clock change. Let me further day to the other? Children are affected not only by light the argument on how our lives will change. Schoolchildren and dark, but by hot and cold. We have to examine the would also benefit if we transferred that hour of light whole aspect of the climate, not just one isolated bit from the morning to the afternoon. In London, they of it. would benefit from 233 hours of available extra daylight between 4.30 pm and either sunset or bedtime taken at Mr Ellwood: I congratulate the hon. Lady on the 8.30 pm. That is 233 hours when activity could take method and the style with which she is putting her place, after-school events could happen and, as my hon. arguments forward. It is very important that we have a Friend just mentioned, people could travel far more full debate on these matters. When children go to school safely than they are able to do when it is dark. in the morning the people using the roads are normally 1121 Daylight Saving Bill3 DECEMBER 2010 Daylight Saving Bill 1122

[Mr Ellwood] The tourism argument has been well made, but I just put on the record the fact that I support the call by the going to a destination with which they are familiar; they Tourism Alliance for a clock change. The arguments are either going to work or to school, and they have about CO2 emissions have also been put forward; in used these roads before. So even when they are doing so those terms, the clock change would result in the equivalent in the dark, they are making a safer journey than those of more than 200,000 cars being taken off our roads. they make in the afternoons and evenings, when our That is a major issue and I am pleased that the concept world gets far busier and far more complex. That is behind the Bill is receiving the support of the Chairman when the accidents happen. The hon. Member for Belfast of the Environmental Audit Committee. East (Naomi Long) shakes her head, but she cannot refute the current statistics, which show that three times Mr Knight: Has my hon. Friend also seen the report as many accidents happen in the evening rush hour than by Cambridge university that concludes that home energy in the morning rush hour. That is a powerful argument. consumption would also decrease by about 2% as a result of this change? Naomi Long: I wrote to Translink, the main public transport provider in Northern Ireland, in relation to Mr Ellwood: My right hon. Friend makes an important this debate and it took the contrary view. Translink said point, which is is worth expanding on. All fuel bills that if it were darker in the mornings, when the rush would go down by about 5%, and as fuel poverty is a hour is much more concentrated in Northern Ireland, concern, that is a relevant issue. We need to recognise that could lead to more accidents than if it were darker that we are an importer of electricity. When there is a in the afternoon, when the rush hour is more staggered. spike in demand, either we have to buy it in from places The hon. Gentleman can talk about his evidence, but such as France or our easy-to-start-up coal-fired power other professionals in the field see things slightly differently stations come on line. They are dirty and they increase from him. our carbon dioxide emissions. By reducing our net requirement by about 2.2%, we would remove the need Mr Ellwood: I looked carefully at the statistics for to resort to those nasty, dirty coal-fired power stations. Northern Ireland, because it is important to include all parts of the United Kingdom, but I am afraid that I did Malcolm Bruce: The hon. Gentleman is quoting evidence not recognise those statistics that the hon. Lady cited. I very convincingly, so I shall quote some evidence: would be happy to speak to her about them after this “National Grid has also recognised that if the UK is on the debate. It is important that we get these issues right. A same time as France, a loss of capacity or severe weather” lot of statistics have been thrown around today and would push up energy prices here because we would be were the Government to push this proposal forward, it competing with France for our needs at the same time. would be important for them to carry out their own study and present that to Parliament. Mr Ellwood: The right hon. Gentleman’s point is now A reduction in crime has also been mentioned in on the record. relation to this proposal. The Home Office British We need to ensure that we do not resort to using crime survey has indicated that a clock change would coal-fired power stations, and that aim can be achieved lead to a 3% reduction in vandalism and petty theft. through the clock change. The right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) raised the health and well-being issue, and people are Ben Gummer: The right hon. Member for Gordon happier and more energetic in the longer and brighter (Malcolm Bruce) has just raised an important point days. Conversely, our mood and spirit declines, and about capacity, but that is entirely to do with generating sickness rates increase, during the shorter, duller days. capacity—an inheritance from the previous Government, On average, we enjoy about four hours’ spare time a I am afraid—and nothing to do with daylight saving day—that is time when we are not working, travelling to time. work or sleeping—yet three of those hours are experienced after sunset. That suggests that we are not aligning our Mr Ellwood: I am grateful for that clarification. lives properly. There is also a 60% increase in the level of television watching when it gets dark, so there is strong A time change would bring huge benefits for business evidence to support a clock change. I can see that you and overseas trade. As part of my work as the shadow are looking at me, Mr Deputy Speaker, but I just wish Tourism Minister I spent some time in Scotland and it to touch on some other issues. was interesting to meet Scottish business people, who were very keen to have an alignment of timing. Currently, Mr Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con) rose— 62% of our exports and 50% of imports are within Europe. When we go to work, the Europeans have Mr Ellwood: I will not give way for now and I shall already been at work for an hour, we break for lunch at make some more progress, because Mr Deputy Speaker different times so two hours are lost there and then we is giving me that look. Obesity—this has nothing to do lose another hour in the evening. Four hours a day are with looking back at Mr Deputy Speaker—is an issue lost because of the failure to align our times. with which we need to be concerned in the UK. About One might say that that is where the idea of Berlin 25% of the nation are now clinically obese, which is time came from. Let me say a word about Mr Peter costing the NHS about £2.3 billion a year. Some 50% of Hitchens. the population in Scotland are predicted to be obese by 2050 unless something changes, such as our providing a Mr Nuttall: This might already have been mentioned, greater period in which outdoor activities can take but is it not more accurate to refer to it as Gibraltar place after school and after work. time? 1123 Daylight Saving Bill3 DECEMBER 2010 Daylight Saving Bill 1124

Mr Ellwood: It is, but that point has been made problems of climate change and fuel poverty means already. that the arguments for bringing the nation’s clocks into closer alignment with the hours of daylight are stronger Mr Foster: I apologise because there are those who than ever. Moving our clocks forward by an extra hour will get hung up on the European issue, but would not a throughout the year would bring a range of benefits, as time change also benefit our trade with other countries, we have heard, but I would like to draw particular not least the emerging countries, China and India? attention, again, to the substantial reductions in energy consumption and carbon emissions that would result Mr Ellwood: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for from the simple and effective measures in the Bill. making that point. He has been a passionate supporter Daylight saving time would cut consumption, particularly of a clock change for some time. of domestic fuel, in a number of ways. First, it would But let us get back to Peter Hitchens. [Laughter.] He lower the demand for electricity for lighting, Secondly, is one of the few voices that are against the daylight it would smooth out fluctuations in demand, particularly saving, but I believe that he now acts as a drag anchor in the two daily peaks in the morning and in the against that great British newspaper the Sunday mail— afternoon, which reduce the efficiency of power generation. [Interruption.]—I am sorry; The Mail on Sunday. He is Thirdly, because there would be higher temperatures anti-change; he is anti-technology, so the idea of moving during the evening period of peak demand in the colder the clocks abhors him. That is slightly odd. Because he months of the year, there would be a lower demand for does not like inventions and technology, one would domestic heating. have thought that using the light bulb less might appeal to him, but he does not put that argument forward. He Mr MacNeil: The hon. Lady is, as we would expect, would rather put forward a wartime rhetoric with references making an argument based on the effect of a time to Berlin time to foster prejudice against the Bill. change on carbon emissions. If evidence was to appear— “Why Berlin time?” it has been asked. “Why not empirical evidence rather than projections—from Indiana, Gibraltar time, Madrid time, Paris time or Rome time?” for example, that it would cost more, would she change Clearly, those descriptions would not conjure up the her mind? same worrying image as the UK crumbling to the mighty powers of Berlin after the sacrifices that we Caroline Lucas: If it were to be proved that such a made in two world wars. I say to him, “Peter, you are change would make carbon emissions worse, I would potty. Clearly, you are a very, very angry man and stuck reconsider my position, but I think that is highly unlikely in the past. You are a cross between Alf Garnett and to happen. The hon. Gentleman keeps talking about Victor Meldrew but without the jokes.” He is a restless empirical evidence, but the only way for us to get regressive: the King Canute of politics, fighting the tide relevant empirical evidence is to pass this Bill now and of change. He will never lose sight of the past because have the cost-benefit trials that we are talking about. he has chosen to walk backwards into the future. This is nothing to do with Berlin or wartime images. The only connection with the war is the fact that we first adopted Mr Reid: Surely, if we passed the Bill, we would be a time change during the war because it was useful. more active at the coldest hour of the day—the hour [HON.MEMBERS: “Churchill time!] Yes, that is what we before dawn—and would therefore use more fuel for will call it—not Berlin time but Churchill time! heating at that time. The Building Research Establishment To summarise, moving the clocks forward would investigated this and found that there would be an provide the entire country with about 200 hours of increase in domestic heating if the Bill were passed. extra daylight in the evenings—after a normal working day for adults and after the end of school for children. Caroline Lucas: That was an early intervention on my That would change our lives. It is hard to imagine a speech and if the hon. Gentleman listens to the next bit, more simple, cost-effective piece of legislation that would some of these issues will be answered, because I do not dramatically change our way of life for the better. agree with his point. Sunshine brightens our day, our lives and our spirits; it On reducing demand for artificial lighting, about makes our world happier. We should utilise this valuable 13% of domestic electricity consumption and about resource to coincide with the period of the day in which 30% of electricity consumed by commercial and public our modern world is at its busiest and most dangerous. buildings currently goes on lighting. An extra hour of Carpe diem, Mr Deputy Speaker; let us seize the day. evening daylight would reduce the need for domestic lighting as people arrived home from school or work. Several hon. Members rose— Recent research by the Policy Studies Institute shows that the effect of the proposed clock change would be to Mr Deputy Speaker: There are many speakers, so a lower demand for domestic lighting by as much as 9%. little brevity will be helpful. In other words, the Bill would lead to household savings of nearly £180 million per year on electricity bills alone. 11.55 am A common argument—I expect this will be made, so I will pre-empt it—against daylight saving time is that Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): First, I any drop in demand for evening lighting will be cancelled congratulate the hon. Member for Castle Point (Rebecca by the need for extra lighting on darker mornings. That Harris) on proposing the Bill and refusing to be discouraged may be true during the winter months, when the days by the failure of previous attempts in the House to are shorter, but the Bill proposes an adjustment of introduce daylight saving time. I am extremely glad that clock time throughout the year, which means less need she has proposed the Bill, because the urgency of the for artificial lighting in the evenings all year round. 1125 Daylight Saving Bill3 DECEMBER 2010 Daylight Saving Bill 1126

[Caroline Lucas] cost of heating to compensate for the cold is at its highest, and that the energy consumption required at Regarding commercial demand for evening lighting, that time would be much higher under the changed it is more difficult to quantify the potential savings for rules than it is at present? offices, workplaces and public buildings, as patterns of lighting often vary widely from sector to sector, but Caroline Lucas: No, I do not accept and I do not again, the studies indicate that overall demand from think that that is what the evidence suggests. One of the commercial customers is also likely to be lower. That points that the right hon. Gentleman is making has aspect must be subject to detailed research during the more to do with the way in which we generate energy initial trial period proposed in the Bill, as it offers the now and our spare capacity, rather than being a greatest potential for a nationwide reduction in domestic fundamental point to do with changing to daylight carbon emissions. saving hours. My second point is closely related to the first. Daylight In all of the three areas that I have discussed—reducing saving will cut carbon emissions from power generation demand for lighting, efficient management of peaks in because it will even out the daily peaks in demand for demand, and reduced demand for heating—the greatest electricity. For power companies, the late afternoon potential savings lie in household energy use. For this peak period determines the maximum number of power reason, I believe the Bill offers an easy and inexpensive stations that are required to be on stream to match means of combating fuel poverty. Many of us have consumer demand. Currently, the extra capacity required constituents, often elderly ones, who struggle to pay for that short period of peak demand comes from their electricity bills and their heating bills. In Brighton inefficient and carbon-intensive sources such as oil-fired and Hove, for example, more than 20,000 households, stations and pump storage facilities or, as has been said, many of whom are my constituents, have been identified by imports from France, which can be an expensive as fuel-poor—in other words, forced to spend over 10% alternative. of their income on energy bills. The introduction of daylight saving would reduce I am not suggesting for a moment that the Bill will peak demand for electricity on winter evenings. During allow any of us to relax our efforts to eradicate fuel that famous 1968-71 experiment with retaining British poverty, or to ignore our duty to take meaningful action summer time throughout the year, the evening peak was on cutting carbon emissions. But the beauty of the Bill reduced by 3%. Research carried out by the university is that the action that it requires is simple, while the of Cambridge calculates that lighter evenings now would benefits that it will bring are profound. reduce peak demand by up to 4.3%. The electricity industry also acknowledges that a reduction in evening peak demand would reduce carbon emissions by avoiding Mr MacNeil: I hear the hon. Lady making an argument the need to keep inefficient and polluting spare generating about what could/will/should/may happen. Can she point capacity on stream. to an empirical example? I pointed to Indiana, where The university of Cambridge study calculated that a there was an increase in energy consumption of 1 to 4% and presumably, therefore, an increase in carbon, methane move to daylight saving would mean a drop in CO2 emissions from power stations, across the UK as a and so on. Where is the empirical study that she is whole, of about 450,000 tonnes a year. That is the talking about? equivalent of taking off the roads about 200,000 cars. There would also be a significant reduction in power Caroline Lucas: The hon. Gentleman seems to be companies’ generating costs, both for resources and for obsessed with Indiana. There may well be other reasons the transmission and distribution infrastructure. why the results in Indiana were shown to be what they In addition to reducing demand for lighting, daylight were. As many people have said, we need to look at saving also offers potential for reducing fuel costs and what the results would be in the United Kingdom. carbon emissions from heating. Domestic demand for There is one way to find that out, which is to allow the heating is highest from November to February. The PSI Bill to progress to the next stage so we can establish study found that whereas there is little variation in that. average temperatures between 6 am and 8 am, when most people leave the house, temperatures tend to fall Dr Whiteford: I share the hon. Lady’s concerns about much more quickly in the late afternoon, around sunset, carbon emissions. It is important that we take that into when people are arriving home from work or school. account. I also share the concerns about fuel poverty. Since the introduction of daylight saving will mean However, my fundamental concern is that pre-dawn that it gets colder later, it is possible that households temperatures are so much lower than temperatures towards will be able to save money on their heating bills, while the daylight hours that people will spend much more on shrinking their carbon footprint. A small increase in fossil fuel heating for their homes, rather than going out fuel use for heating in offices and commercial and at a slightly less cold time of day. They will have to use public buildings may be likely because of the earlier heating and lighting in far greater quantities in the start to the day, but the resulting carbon emissions will middle of the night. be offset by reductions in domestic fuel use, so overall there is a clear reduction in carbon emissions. Caroline Lucas: We can trade statistics across the Floor of the House for a great many hours and not Malcolm Bruce: Does the hon. Lady acknowledge become very much the wiser. The points that the hon. that the fact that the temperature does not change much Lady makes are serious ones, but the way to explore the between 6 am and 8 am is because that is the coldest matter further is precisely to allow the passage of the time of the day, and that is exactly the time when the Bill and to have the cost-benefit analysis that it proposes. 1127 Daylight Saving Bill3 DECEMBER 2010 Daylight Saving Bill 1128

Mr MacNeil: Will the hon. Lady give way? else, and I find it extraordinary that anybody would want to deny us the opportunity to have the issue sorted Caroline Lucas: No, the hon. Gentleman has spoken once and for all. a lot. [Interruption.] Oh, he is going to agree. In that I have a long memory, and as colleagues have said we case, I shall let him speak. seem to go round and round on the issue. Every so often, it crops up again, we have a debate, it goes away Mr MacNeil: Perhaps I have misled the hon. Lady! because it is never properly decided on and then it Why reinvent the wheel? Why not look to other parts comes back again. I recall Sir John Butterfill in 1996 of the world where the change has taken place and introducing just such a Bill. avoid three years of misery and the inevitable change that the UK and Portugal have experienced before? I Mr MacNeil: I should like to counter the hon. Lady. say to the good people of England and Scotland, let us The issue has been decided on, but some malcontents make sure that we learn from elsewhere before we go return to the debate every so often. Perhaps that is one through such misery, because, I must regretfully tell the way of looking at it. hon. Lady, the evidence from elsewhere does not support the supposition and conjecture at all. Angie Bray: The hon. Gentleman knows, however, that the problem with a private Member’s Bill is that it Caroline Lucas: I thank the hon. Gentleman, who has to get over certain hurdles on a Friday, and that just reminds me never to trust him again! My giving depends on how helpful people want to be. Such issues way was an aberration, and it will not happen again. do not receive the proper scrutiny that they deserve I return to the point that any impact analysis of the unless we bring everybody’s concerns to the table and Bill’s proposed changes has to take place in the country consider them in the round. and nations under discussion, not in another place with Sir John Butterfill, as Members said earlier, also completely different variables that we cannot analyse or attempted to introduce a private Member’s Bill back in factor into our equations. 1996, and that is when I first became involved with the issue, working with him on his legislation. His measure Charlie Elphicke: I congratulate the hon. Lady on her was called “daylight extra”; the one before us is called passion in setting about the Luddites who are against “daylight saving”. any change. Is not her argument bolstered empirically We have heard from the lighter evenings campaign, by the graph showing energy consumption on the last and Later Lighter, or Lighter Later, has also commented. BST Monday and the first GMT Monday? Claire Perry (Devizes) (Con): I actually think that the Caroline Lucas: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his measure should be called “Churchill time”, as my hon. remarks. Yes, indeed, there is plenty of empirical evidence Friend so cleverly suggested today. She represents an to support our argument. As I say, however, the most urban constituency and I represent a rural constituency, important thing is to move the Bill forward so that, with and historically farmers have been against such a shift, the same figures on everybody’s laps, we can have that but I have talked to the NFU, and it is at worst a neutral debate and make the same analysis. on the issue, so does my hon. Friend agree that the In closing, I reiterate what others have said about world has changed significantly since it was last debated? how the Bill will also benefit tourism in the UK. My Farming in Devizes has diversified; we have a huge constituency owes a great deal of its prosperity to tourism industry; and I have had nothing but very tourism, with about £690 million entering the Brighton strong support for the measure, call it what we will. and Hove economy last year. In the wider south-east region, the sector employs more than 300,000 people or Angie Bray: I thank my hon. Friend for that point. I about 8% of the work force. The Bill enjoys broad and was pleased to have a small role in suggesting the good enthusiastic support from all sections of the tourism title of “Churchill’s time”, which would be helpful to us industry, and it is estimated that moving to daylight patriots who get rather annoyed when people suggest saving will boost tourism throughout the UK by about that we are being pushed into this move by an EU £3.5 billion and create 80,000 jobs. directive or that we are going back to Berlin time. That is just one more argument to add to the many that we have heard today about why, at the very least, Mr MacNeil: Perhaps rather than Churchill time, it the Bill should progress to the next stage of its passage should be Chamberlain time—appeasement is what is through Parliament. The issue should be analysed properly. happening. I think the cost-benefit analysis will demonstrate that the trial should go ahead, and as a result all of us will have a much better quality of life. Angie Bray: It was Churchill who recognised that by going on to summer time, we would get more out of our factories and generally be more productive. That is why 12.7 pm it was so useful during the war effort. Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con): I I introduced this matter as a member of the London congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Castle assembly, because for Londoners, it is a no-brainer, Point (Rebecca Harris) on the Bill, which I am happy to although I appreciate that other regions have concerns support, and the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion and that not every region will think the same way. I was (Caroline Lucas) on her helpful remarks. I agree that delighted to have full support from all parties on the the Bill is about scrutiny and debate as much as anything London assembly. That was the one occasion when I 1129 Daylight Saving Bill3 DECEMBER 2010 Daylight Saving Bill 1130

[Angie Bray] contacted me—the hospitality industry, the tourist industry, the CBI, environmentalists and many more groups say found myself in complete agreement with the then Mayor that we should have a serious think about how we set of London, Ken Livingstone. It was a very happy, if our clocks. unusual, occasion. Call me a bit lazy, but I have to admit that were I to I was contacted before this debate by many of my be involved in the scrutiny, I would not plump for constituents, urging me to speak in favour of the measure. Churchill’s time exactly, because I think that would We must remember that we are talking about a period have been two hours forward in the summer. I am more of scrutiny and a trial, and are not prescribing what will of a compromise girl, and my view is that if we have a come out at the end. This is an opportunity for everybody chance we should go on to permanent British summer to put the facts on the table so that we can sort the time, not least because I get sick to death of changing matter out once and for all. my clocks twice a year. Having a settled time would be Even in the mid-1990s, when I was doing the leg work very handy, and it would be a compromise that would for Sir John Butterfill’s Bill, I was aware that some of give us a bit of extra light in the afternoon when it the old Scottish objections had less resonance. We have would be used most effectively. moved even further beyond that now. I am not sure that I want to move as far as keeping it light until midnight. I remember when I was at St Malcolm Bruce: I, too, was very much involved in Andrews university it was light up until about 11 o’clock that Bill. I took part in “On the Record”, which had a at night at certain times, and that seemed a little bit too live studio audience and a phone-in. At the beginning, long for me. I am a British summer time girl and I am the vote was two to one in favour of the idea and at the for sticking with it right through the year, but that is end, it was two to one against. Nearly all the representations another argument that will be tested if we have scrutiny against the idea came from the south and south-west of and a trial. That is the only way that we can move out of England, not from Scotland. the revolving door of private Members’ Bills. Let us have proper scrutiny, so that the matter can be decided Angie Bray: General polling suggests that the public once and for all for the benefit of our constituents and feel rather differently from that particularly small sample. the country as a whole. At the time, Sir John Butterfill was ably supported by two Scottish Labour MPs, George Foulkes—now Lord Foulkes—and Brian Wilson, who made it clear that the 12.16 pm measure would be good for a large part of Scotland. As Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): First, I congratulate we have heard today, the move can only be a good thing the hon. Member for Castle Point (Rebecca Harris) on for the vast majority of the population in Scotland, as securing the opportunity to debate this issue. Things well as in England and Wales. such as environmental, social and economic benefits, At the time, we were deluged by letters from Scottish fuel poverty and so on have been discussed in detail, but farmers saying that the arguments were a bit patronising it is disappointing for me as a Member from Northern because they did have electricity in their barns. Some Ireland that so little thought has been given to the Scottish builders also wrote to us to say that they would impact on that part of the country. We are not just prefer to drive to their job of work in the dark if they further north but further west than the constituencies of could have an extra hour of light towards the end of the almost anyone else participating in the debate, and that day, because they would be able to do a longer day’s work. would have an impact if the changes were to take place. The hon. Member for Ealing Central and Acton Dr Whiteford: One reason why farmers in parts of (Angie Bray) said that it was important to allow debate, Scotland are less opposed to the measure than they and that that was the Bill’s purpose. I agree, which is were 40 years ago is that they now have heating and why I will support the Bill, but I get slightly nervous lighting in their steadings. That rather undermines the when I hear the rather zealous opinions expressed against carbon saving argument. The farmers to whom I have those of us who have concerns that we want considered. spoken are less than enthusiastic; at best they are neutral. We are simply dismissed as though we were trying to Clearly, they are not diametrically opposed, as they hold back progress in some way. once were, but that is because they are now able to heat and light the buildings that they use in the early morning. Angie Bray: I would be very disappointed if the hon. Lady were to get the impression that I do not recognise Angie Bray: In a sense, that makes the point that we the concerns. I think what I said was that all regions will are moving forward. All those arguments can be put on have very different views, but that there will be an the table when we have the scrutiny. opportunity for those views to be put on the table and I went to a Scottish university, St Andrews, and one discussed and scrutinised properly. Of course all regions of my flatmates never saw any daylight. Admittedly, he will have different views for different reasons, and I chose his own hours, but he used to go to bed in the hope she accepts that I realise that. early hours of the morning and rise at about 2.30 or 3 o’clock in the afternoon. By the time he had scrubbed Naomi Long: I do indeed, and the fervour that I his teeth and stepped outside, it was pitch dark again. A referred to was not hers. However, some of the questions little light might have done him some good—he never that have been raised have not been answered. For looked a very healthy colour. example, we must consider the coincidence of the last The number of organisations that support the Bill trial with the introduction of drink-driving regulations, speaks for itself: ROSPA, the police, sports bodies— speed limits and so on. That has not been effectively including my local group, the Old Actonians, which addressed by any of the proponents of the change. 1131 Daylight Saving Bill3 DECEMBER 2010 Daylight Saving Bill 1132

Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): Does the hon. Action, the Northern Ireland Independent Retail Trade Lady not agree that the argument about breathalysers Association, the CBI and the Institute of Directors in and seat belts in relation to the last trial back in 1968 to Northern Ireland, Sport Northern Ireland, Translink 1971 is slightly flawed? Seat belts were not compulsory NI, which is our largest public transport provider, the until 1983, and in my experience very few people used Age Sector Platform and the Ulster Farmers Union, them before that time. In the same way, people did not from which I received a number of responses. None take a great deal of notice of the breathalyser in the raised huge objections to the proposal, but all indicated early days of the drink-drive laws. that they had given the matter virtually no consideration. I do not believe that daylight saving is on the radar of Naomi Long: I do not entirely agree. Although it was Northern Ireland political debate. not compulsory to wear a seat belt, they were fitted in cars in that period, and I think people did take note of Malcolm Bruce: The hon. Lady is making a very the breathalyser, because prosecutions were made. important point about northern and western areas. Have the people of Penzance considered what it will be Mr David Hamilton: Will the hon. Lady give way? like to have sunrise in mid-December at 9.14 am, half an hour later than it currently is in Belfast? Naomi Long: No, I wish to make some progress. Those points are not the crux of my argument, Naomi Long: Sunrise times are critical. Belfast will be because I do not wish to speak against the Bill. I am less affected than the north coast of Northern Ireland, speaking in favour of it, but I am simply raising issues where the changes would be much more significant. In that I wish to be given due consideration as part of the some places on the north coast, sunrise would be 9.50 am trial. in mid-winter, which would significantly change people’s quality of life. It is important that those of us who come from the north and west of the UK have the opportunity to put our concerns on record. Rather than rehearse arguments Mr David Hamilton: I have come here today with an that have been made, which have been incredibly English- open mind, with no view on whether we should accept centric with the exception of a few hon. Members the proposal or not. I endorse what the hon. Lady said sitting in front of me, I wish to talk about a specific about daylight saving being a non-issue, certainly in my issue in Northern Ireland. area. I have received one letter from a constituent who asked for things to remain the same. Albert Owen: As a Welsh MP, I am certainly not On transport, there are millions and millions more English-centric. I made the point that we need empirical vehicles on the road now than there were in the ’60s, so evidence from all parts of the UK so that we can would the change be worse now than it was then? formulate a proper argument. Indeed, the only data available on energy savings are UK-wide data from the Naomi Long: I confess that I have not given a lot of National Grid, but we need to consider whether there thought to that, because I wanted specifically to look at are different periods of peak demand within the UK. the differential impact. I am prepared to accept that The hon. Lady is right that the Bill will get those data there is a body of evidence on the UK generally, but I out into the open. wanted to consider the impact specifically on Northern Ireland. The different patterns of transportation and Naomi Long: Had the hon. Gentleman waited a few commuting in different parts of the UK also need to be minutes, he would have heard me say that he was one of considered, and I will come back to that. the few who said that studies are required specifically I am happy to support the proposal for a study on the on the Northern Ireland context. To date, I have basis that the Bill does not state that that would lead encountered very few specific references to the Northern automatically to a trial. There has to be a cost-benefit Ireland situation in the correspondence and lobbying analysis first, and on that basis, I would be happy to that I have received, but the Scotland situation has been support the proposal. I would wish to be convinced, addressed. The assumption is that the opposition to the however, because the Bill has many positive elements—they change would come purely from Scotland, and little have been stated today. However, I need convincing that thought has been given to the impact on Northern people in my constituency, and Northern Ireland as a Ireland. whole, would experience those positive elements. I have received much correspondence in favour of the The effect of the time change on my constituency changes, but it has been generic and mainly on the GB would be marginal. In winter, there would be a later situation—people in the south are very much in favour, dawn, but it would not be a hugely significant change. but less so in the north. Scotland was at least addressed However, in the spring and summer, the change would in that correspondence, but not Northern Ireland. Few undoubtedly be slightly beneficial in the evenings. In have considered the impact on the more westerly and the north-west of Northern Ireland, however, sunrise in northerly areas of the UK, but we must take care to December, as I have mentioned, would be about 9.50 am, do so. which by anyone’s standards is quite late. The argument More importantly, there has been surprisingly little has been made that the gain in the afternoon would be debate on this issue in Northern Ireland—it does not significant, but actually it would be insignificant. Sunset come to the minds of many people. In advance of would move from 4 pm to 5 pm, which is when people today’s debate, I took it upon myself to write to a small are travelling home from school. However, most of the sample of representative groups to ask for their opinion, commute will happen afterwards, so it will have little including the Federation of Small Businesses Northern significance for commuter patterns in that part of Northern Ireland, the Northern Ireland Council for Voluntary Ireland. That has to be looked at carefully. 1133 Daylight Saving Bill3 DECEMBER 2010 Daylight Saving Bill 1134

[Naomi Long] Ireland straddle the border—they do not exist entirely on one side or the other—so there are practical issues I wrote to Translink, and it responded: about time differences. Some people live on one side of “The proposal would effectively mean darker mornings for the border, but go to school, church or community longer in the Autumn/Winter, particularly in the mornings when organisations on the other side. It is a very permeable most traffic is on the roads at one time, i.e. schools, commuters. border. Therefore, the proposal would have a significant Darker evenings in our view are not as big an issue as the majority impact on those living in the area. One Member said of our schools traffic is over by 16.30/17.00 and the evening traffic that they found it incredibly irritating to have to change is more staggered, with most commuters making their homeward their clocks twice a year, and I think that some people in journeys between 17.30 and 18.00.” Northern Ireland might find it irritating to have to do it Translink is not convinced that the argument put forward three or four times a day. necessarily holds true. A point has been made about more rural areas, where, for example, children stand It should also be noted that consideration is being roadside to be collected for school, but are picked up given in the Republic of Ireland to a potential change— within the school perimeter on the way home. That is an consideration that has been largely motivated, I think, important difference that raises significant issues. by the debate here. However, we must recognise that we have no influence over the outcome of those considerations. We therefore need to proceed with caution. Although I Ben Gummer: These are important local issues, but accept the point made by other Members that it is not surely we are dancing on the head of a pin. This is an impossible to have different time zones within the UK, opportunity to save 1.2 million tonnes of carbon per although not across these islands, it would not be a annum—the equivalent to 200,000 cars—and to make desirable position. popular carbon savings. That is impossible in any other walk or area of life. Why can we not just take it? Albert Owen: The hon. Lady is making a strong argument. On the point about the land border, my Naomi Long: The hon. Gentleman misunderstands constituency is closer to the Republic of Ireland than it me—I am in favour of the Bill. It is exactly that kind of is to England. The proposal would therefore have an response to alternative views that fills me with trepidation, impact on travel between west Wales and the Republic because it dismisses those who might wish to bring to of Ireland. However, I happen to think that if the the table other opinions and concerns, and those who proposal went forward in the United Kingdom, Ireland actually wish to see some evidence. If the point of the would come into line with Europe, as well as with the Bill is to get evidence to support the case, it is bizarre United Kingdom. that Members have decided already that they have all the evidence required. If they have, they should simply Naomi Long: I would not wish to stand here and have introduced a Bill saying that we should go ahead predict what the Irish Government might choose to do, and make the change. If we accept the argument that because that is not a matter for this House, and I do not evidence needs to be gathered, surely we have to accept think that they would welcome our intervention. However, the argument made today that we have to look with an from my perspective, it would worry me if there was a open mind at the impact on all the parts of the UK. time difference at the border, as it would have an impact With a background in engineering and science, I would on trade. A number of Members have emphasised the prefer to enter any assessment with an open mind potential benefits of our being on, as it were, European looking at all the evidence, rather than with a closed time, but we should remember that our biggest trade mind having already decided what the outcome will be. partner is the Republic of Ireland, which is currently in the same time zone as us. Indeed, the fact that we are so Mr MacNeil: The hon. Lady has shed some light on inextricably linked was one of the arguments put forward why she supports the Bill—to get some analysis and in support of the recent economic bail-out, for example. gather information—although she has some reservations We need to give detailed consideration to those issues. It about the trial period. Has she had any indication from would also help if we considered the cost implications the hon. Member for Castle Point (Rebecca Harris) of when trialling the proposal, because it would affect the timeline, of when the analysis might happen and basic things such as the timetabling of rail and bus how many years the trial would last? services that operate on a cross-border basis. Those operating such services would incur the cost of having Naomi Long: The questions about the trial, the to re-do their timetables during the trial and, if it was commissioners and the report are answered in the Bill. I not a success, having to re-do them again afterwards. am less concerned about the timeline than about the I am in favour of looking at the proposal. There are potential impact and the consideration given to slightly potential benefits to giving it consideration. more remote areas. Those who live in the west of Northern Ireland often feel that they are ignored in the Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): When I Northern Ireland Assembly, which sits in the east, where heard the hon. Lady say that she wondered what the most of the population is based. Those living in the people of Penzance thought, my ears pricked up and I north and west of the UK are likely to feel even more ran here from my office as fast as I could. I cannot that way if we overlook them when considering the speak for the people of Penzance, but I can most impact of the Bill. It is important that we think about certainly speak for the people of Truro and Falmouth. I that. want to reassure the hon. Lady, along with my hon. There is a second issue that is unique to Northern Friends, that since I have become a Member of Parliament, Ireland—our land border with another region. That has no issue has generated as much interest in my constituency. to be considered carefully. There are cost and practical More people have contacted me on this issue than on implications of the Bill. Many of the farms in Northern any other. 1135 Daylight Saving Bill3 DECEMBER 2010 Daylight Saving Bill 1136

Naomi Long: I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention, The hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) although it was not me who mentioned Penzance—I made a valuable contribution. She began by saying that think it was mentioned in an intervention by another she was agnostic about the issue. She admitted that she Member. I have to say that no issue has generated less had approached it with an open mind and that, having interest from my constituents in my postbag. I have to reviewed the evidence, she was not particularly impressed be entirely honest about this: I think I have had one by it and was now ambivalent about the matter. That is e-mail from a constituent on the issue. However, that fine, and at least she did not deny that there might be would not dictate my view on it, because there may be merit in the proposals, and in continuing with the merit in considering the proposal, even though it might research. That was in stark contrast to the hon. Member not be a pressing issue for all my constituents. for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil). I do not wish to prolong the agony any further. I simply wish to say that I support the proposal to Dr Whiteford: If the Bill dealt with no more than the conduct a study. research phase, I would be very happy to support it. It does not, however; it proposes a trial and, in the light of Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con): I congratulate all the evidence that I have seen so far, I do not believe the hon. Lady on her principled position and would like that the case has been made for such a trial. to ask whether she agrees that all the opponents of the proposed change should nevertheless support the Bill, Mr Foster: The hon. Lady condemns herself out of because it simply seeks to remove the ambiguities and her own mouth. She says that the evidence to date does uncertainties that she has highlighted. not persuade or convince her. Fine. Then let us carry out the research, and the independent analysis of that research, and bring back a proposal to the House Naomi Long: I have reached my own conclusion, and through an order so that we can decide whether to go I am sure that other right hon. and hon. Members will on with a trial. have done likewise. I would like to see the detailed evidence and the cost-benefit analysis considered properly, Mr MacNeil rose— so that we can make a fully informed decision. I am therefore happy to support the Bill. In doing so, however, Mr Foster: I will give way briefly, but the hon. Gentleman I would urge those taking it through the House to has taken up a lot of the House’s time today. consider the impact in Northern Ireland. Those of us from Northern Ireland might not account for a huge number of people in the House, but the proposal would Mr MacNeil: I am not sure whether that is good or have a significant impact on us. We also face unique bad. The hon. Gentleman is arguing for research, and circumstances, owing to our border with the Irish Republic. analysis of that research, to be carried out. If that were Both those issues should be considered in much more covered by one Bill, and the trial were covered by detail than they have been to date. another, many of us would feel a lot more secure. This Bill, however, sets us on a slippery slope, and we would go from A to B to C very quickly. We would have three years of misery, followed by repentance from all sides as 12.34 pm we changed back to the current system. Mr Don Foster (Bath) (LD): My hon. Friend and constituency neighbour, the Member for North East Mr Foster: The hon. Gentleman seems to change his Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg), who is no longer in his tune with almost every intervention. Only a few minutes place, made a telling intervention in which he pointed ago, he was intervening on the excellent contribution out that nothing in the Bill—and, indeed, nothing that from the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Parliament can do—will increase the amount of daylight Lucas) to ask whether she would be willing to change in any particular location in this country. The Bill seeks her mind on the basis of empirical research. I want to to find the most effective way of using daylight for the ask the hon. Gentleman whether he will change his benefit of our constituents, whether they be in Scotland, mind on the basis of such research— Wales, Northern Ireland or England. I was delighted to hear the speech by the hon. Member Mr MacNeil rose— for Belfast East (Naomi Long). Her contribution was one of the finest that we have heard. She clearly fully Mr Foster: I will not give way to the hon. Gentleman. understood the purpose of the Bill. She rightly expressed He would do well to read in detail what the Bill says. I concern that there had not been much debate on this applaud the hon. Member for Castle Point (Rebecca issue in Northern Ireland, and pointed out that limited Harris) for introducing a Bill that addresses all the research had been carried out there. She also said that approaches to this issue that might exist in this House. she had a number of concerns about what might happen Perhaps it is worth reminding Members and others if we adopted the proposals. She went on to say, crucially, listening to the debate what the Bill actually says. It that because of the lack of evidence, and because many states: people believe that there will be real benefits from the “The Secretary of State must conduct a cross-departmental proposals, the Bill should be given a fair wind so that analysis of the potential costs and benefits of advancing time by the appropriate research, and the appropriate analysis one hour for all, or part, of the year, including…a breakdown, so of that research, can be carried out, and decisions could far as is possible, of these costs and benefits for England, Wales, then be made on whether any further action should be Scotland and Northern Ireland”. taken. It has to be said that her speech was in marked It goes on to state that the analysis must take into contrast to those made by representatives of the Scottish account research that is done National party. “by such bodies as the Secretary of State thinks fit.” 1137 Daylight Saving Bill3 DECEMBER 2010 Daylight Saving Bill 1138

[Mr Foster] Malcolm Bruce: If the benefits of these long summer evenings are as great as the proponents of the Bill The Bill then proposes that there should be suggest, why do the House and schools in England not “an independent Commission…to assess the analysis” set an example by continuing their business during the and that the commission should publish that assessment. eight weeks that have the lightest evenings of the year? On the trial period that clearly so worries the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar, the Bill states it will Mr Foster: My right hon. Friend begins his question only be introduced with the word “If”. That is a move in the right direction, “If the Commission concludes that the advancing of time by one because I assume that he is now prepared to allow hour for all, or part, of the year would be beneficial to England, research to be carried out. He can ignore, as can the Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland”. hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar, the fact that all The Bill does not state “or Northern Ireland”; it states the research evidence, whether from Ipsos MORI, npower “and”. The change would have to benefit all those or MoneySavingExpert.com, demonstrates that more areas. Even then, the Bill states that none of that can people in Scotland are now in favour of moves in this happen until an order is placed before Parliament. I do direction than retaining the status quo. They can ignore not understand why the hon. Gentleman said that the that—that is fine—and they can say that the people of Bill would railroad people into doing something. Clearly, Scotland are unsure, and they may be right, but that is that is not the case. Even worse, he went on to state that why the research is so important. it was a kamikaze leap. The Bill is exactly the opposite I hope that all hon. Members have had an opportunity of that. to look at the excellent publication produced by my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth East Mr Reid: When my hon. Friend read from the Bill, he (Mr Ellwood), who has done so much work on this failed to point out that the commission is unelected. issue, and has, I am sure, been supporting the hon. The Bill does not state who appoints the commission; it Member for Castle Point. The hon. Member for Belfast appears from nowhere. If that unelected commission East is right to say that if we are advocating that more comes to the conclusion that making the changes would research and analysis needs to be done, none of us can be beneficial, the Secretary of State must introduce argue that all the research is yet conclusive. However, in the order. The Government would have no choice in the the summary of his excellent book, my hon. Friend the matter. The Bill would give far too much power to the Member for Bournemouth East notes that if we move unelected commission. in this direction it is likely that there will be safer roads, a reduction in the NHS budget, a reduction in crime, Mr Foster: My hon. Friend, who I know is a staunch improved health and well-being, a boost to UK tourism, opponent of any moves in the direction set out in the a reduction in our energy bills, a reduction in our Bill, has revealed that his only real concern is about the carbon footprint, and increased international business details of the appointment of members of the independent and trade. commission. I am absolutely certain that the hon. Member Those are aims that every Member of this House for Castle Point would be more than happy for him to should be seeking to achieve, and that is why every be a member of the Bill Committee. I am sure that she Member of this House should support this Bill to allow would be very happy to look favourably on an amendment further research and analysis to take place, and only that alters how the commission is introduced. then, if it all points in the right direction, to enable a Many hon. Members still wish to speak. I would have trial to take place. loved to have spent time discussing how we only have to look at the business of the House every day to see how 12.46 pm nearly every debate would be influenced by a move in the direction proposed by the Bill. Whether in our Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab): I debates on the economy, crime, the retail industry— commend the hon. Member for Castle Point (Rebecca particularly in terms of tourism—and many other Harris) for bringing the Bill before us. I hope she is issues, the proposals would give us an opportunity to enjoying today’s experience a little more than the Postal analyse whether, in each of those areas, a real benefit Services Bill Committee, on which we both sit. I suspect could be brought to our constituents in all parts of the she might have become sick of the sound of my voice country. over the past few weeks, but if she will tolerate me a little longer I might have something interesting to say When the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar—I to her. regret that I cannot correctly pronounce his constituency; I apologise for that—makes flippant remarks, he does The Bill certainly has a strong campaign behind it. himself a disservice. He challenged my hon. Friend the The hon. Lady and those at Lighter Later deserve credit Member for Enfield North (Nick de Bois) to carry out a for so forcefully making their argument. Perhaps there trial for changing his personal clocks. He failed to is a less vocal and less organised argument against these realise that the disadvantage to my hon. Friend would proposals but, as we know, it is not always those who be that he would have to operate on a different time shout loudest who win the argument. The Opposition zone from the rest of his hon. Friends and from the do not disagree with the aims of the Bill in principle, work of this Chamber. That would put him at the same but we are concerned about how it will work in practice. disadvantage that occurs for businesses and people in I will come on to some of those concerns in a moment this country who try to operate not only with people in or two. Europe—one of our main trading partners—but, as I The basic goal of the Bill, as I understand it, is to said in an intervention, with people in emerging countries, examine the possibility of changing our daylight structure such as China and India. to ensure that we make the best use of the available 1139 Daylight Saving Bill3 DECEMBER 2010 Daylight Saving Bill 1140 daylight. Members on both sides of the House have Mr MacNeil: I would be interested to know the view contributed to a very lively and interesting debate, and of Opposition Front Benchers on a sensible, symmetrical not just today. As much as we would like to, we can shorter period either side of mid-winter. That would be never increase the number of daylight hours in each a compromise between some of the extreme positions day. That is the will of a higher power, if Members that we have heard. believe in such a thing; if they do not, it simply has to do with how the earth spins on its axis. Either way, we Gordon Banks: I was waiting for that one. If I remember have no control over it. correctly, the hon. Gentleman said that he had not had a sensible response to any of those proposals in any of The Bill sets out provisions for a three-year trial of the debates, and I do not think he will get one from me, the new daylight regime. However, that trial can begin either. only after completion of a cross-departmental review by Government and the establishment of a commission In performing my duties as Member of Parliament to determine whether the change will benefit all parts of for Ochil and South Perthshire, I have received the United Kingdom. Even after that, the Secretary of representations from constituents that show the strength State would have to lay an order before Parliament. It is of feeling on both sides of the argument. I know that therefore clear that any change to our time structure the Lighter Later campaign carried out polling that would have to clear a considerable number of obstacles—or targeted Scotland and highlighted the fact that the perhaps I should say “checks and balances”—after majority of Scots backed lighter evenings. As with any Second Reading before anything came to fruition. poll, however, the key is how the question was asked and what questions were asked. I am sure that if any I commend the hon. Lady for being so conciliatory in assembled mass of people were asked whether they the wording of her Bill, but I remain to be totally would like an extra hour of daylight they would say yes. persuaded that the wider public are as convinced as has One must ask, however, whether they fully understood been suggested today. If the Bill were passed today, a that to get the extra hour of daylight in the evening they trial period should be instituted before the implementation would have to spend an extra hour in darkness in the of any wholesale change. morning. That is the key question, so, understandably, I reserve judgment on some of the poll results as they Mr Reid: The hon. Gentleman mentions the three-year stand. trial. Has he noticed that under clause 3 the success of As we have heard, this is not the first time these issues the trial has to be reviewed have been debated in Parliament. I am aware of the “Not later than six months before the Trial is due to end”? work that the former Member for Stafford, David Kidney, carried out but he was not, despite possibly wanting to Effectively, therefore, it is only a two-and-a-half year be, the trailblazer in this area. Robert Pearce, the Member trial that could cover only two, not three, winters. of Parliament for Leek, introduced a Bill in 1908, and we have already heard from the hon. Member for Gordon Banks: Irrespective of the length of the trial—two Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood) about Benjamin and a half or three years—it is a substantial period that Franklin’s contribution, with his remark: would enable the gathering of a significant amount of “Early to bed, early to rise, makes a man healthy, wealthy and information and allow us to make the decision on the wise.” basis of information gathered in the UK, not in Indiana I am early to rise and late to bed, so what does that or somewhere else, and the decision would be based on make me? Answers on a postcard please. Here we are, the UK in the 21st century. 100 years later, continuing the debate. I suspect that it When I read the official transcript of the recent could rumble on for another 100 years. The only good Adjournment debate on this subject, I was surprised by thing is that nobody here will be able to be held to the strength of personal belief in favour of the change, account for their decisions or blamed for them. but I was also impressed by the quieter voices arguing As we have heard, these debates often rear their head for the status quo. That clearly shows that there are at this time of year. Having lived in Scotland for many differing viewpoints north and south of the border. years, I would welcome an extra hour of daylight at the end of a traditional working day. When I think about the Bill, however, I remember the old saying that not all Mr Bradshaw: May I congratulate my hon. Friend that glisters is gold. Although we would all appreciate on, I think, his intention to give the Bill a fair wind? He an extra hour of daylight at night, the question is talks about doubt, but may I commend to him the whether it is worth the sacrifice of darker mornings? excellent report by the Policy Studies Institute, published Although that might not be a major issue for constituents in October, on the impact in Scotland? There has been a in the south of England, irrespective of what has been lot of discussion about Scotland today, and the report said, I know for a fact that it is an issue the further suggests that the benefits for Scotland are even greater north one travels in the UK—and not just in Scotland. than those for the rest of the United Kingdom. I note that the hon. Member for Bournemouth East has been particularly vocal in his support for the Bill, Gordon Banks: I thank my right hon. Friend for his but equally I hope that he will concede that he represents intervention. There is a lot of conflicting information one of the southernmost constituencies in the UK. and there are many conflicting viewpoints. My suggestion, Were I in his position, I might well argue as strongly in without giving away too much of my speech at this support of the Bill as he is. I am sure, however, that he point, would be that a review could gather a lot of and the hon. Member for Castle Point would agree with important information that could be well studied the Prime Minister that we need a solution that suits all and well debated to allow a longer term decision to be parts of the UK, not just the south. I recognise that that made. is an objective of the Bill. 1141 Daylight Saving Bill3 DECEMBER 2010 Daylight Saving Bill 1142

Mr Ellwood: We went to some lengths to ensure that not convinced that the whole United Kingdom has the Bill benefits not constituencies but the whole of the reached that point. We need to reach a decision based UK, and paid attention to Scotland specifically. Let me on factual evidence that is relevant to the United Kingdom take the hon. Gentleman back to the debate that Scottish in the 21st century. Members had last week. I think it was the right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) who commented Albert Owen: Although I support the Bill, I—like that the previous Prime Minister, who is from Scotland, many other Members, including the hon. Member for had said that this would be good for Britain and for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas)—want to see the Scotland. evidence, but we, as Members of Parliament, must be leaders as well. We must collate the evidence and then Gordon Banks: I do not want to argue or disagree make our decisions. We cannot always be weathervanes; with the hon. Gentleman. If he bears with me, my we must sometimes be leaders. position will become a little clearer. Gordon Banks: I do not disagree with that. After the Mr Ellwood: It is fuzzy at the moment. commission has reported and trials of a permanent change have taken place, it will be possible for a vote to Gordon Banks: I think it is important for the Opposition take place in the House, and for us all to make our views to identify some of the problems that a number of people known at that stage. outside the House, as well as a number of Members, have with the Bill. However, I believe that there is a Naomi Long: I agree with the hon. Member for Ynys solution to those problems, and I believe that that Môn (Albert Owen) that we should not wish to be solution is in the Bill. weathervanes. I too have said that I will support the Let me now make our position a little less fuzzy for Bill, although the subject is not much of an issue in my the benefit of the hon. Member for Bournemouth East. constituency. However, it would be foolish for Members Although we have some unanswered questions, it is fair of Parliament to disregard evidence completely. Decisions to say that there is a strong argument in favour of must be evidence based, and it is therefore important analysis and more detailed scrutiny. I shall say more for that evidence to be collated throughout the United shortly about the problems that are envisaged. However, Kingdom. as we believe that scrutiny of the Bill and its objectives would be carried out most effectively in Committee, we Gordon Banks: I could not agree more. I put my faith will not oppose its Second Reading today. in the commission’s ability to gather evidence from all The Bill’s approach broadly mirrors that of the National over the United Kingdom, and to analyse it in an Farmers Union of Scotland and Visit Scotland. They, independent, structured and transparent way. like us, welcome the debate on the issues, but have yet to Following the Adjournment debate, I was intrigued develop a firm viewpoint on the potential viability of to read in Hansard that the Under-Secretary of State for the changes. We reserve our judgment on the Bill until Scotland, the right hon. Member for Dumfriesshire, there has been a thorough and detailed assessment of Clydesdale and Tweeddale (David Mundell), had said its effects. Indeed, I believe that that is the Bill’s objective. that his Department had consulted on the Bill, but, I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow despite repeated calls from Members during the debate, South (Mr Harris), who said in the recent Adjournment had refused to share the results. debate that the benefits to Scotland were “unquantifiable The Government’s view on the Bill has not been in advance.” Let me take that a step further, and say made clear. If one were to believe the Under-Secretary—and that at this stage the risks may also be unquantifiable. I have no reason to doubt him—the Government appeared That is why we will not oppose the Bill’s progress to unlikely to support it. However, I read in the Sunday Committee, where those risks and benefits can be explored papers a fortnight ago that according to soundings more fully. from the Government a U-turn was in the offing. I look forward to clarification of the Government’s position Malcolm Bruce: That is a perfectly fair position, but from the Minister. I would, however, add my voice to does the hon. Gentleman share my concern that virtually those of hon. Members who have called on the Scotland all the evidence has been produced by interest groups Office Minister to release the information so as to allow who have approached the issue with a view to determining us all a better opportunity to scrutinise the Bill. Perhaps evidence in their favour? How can he be sure that any the BIS Minister currently on the Front Bench might be analysis will be resourced fully and objectively to ensure able to encourage his colleague to do that. that the counter-arguments are investigated properly? The Bill calls for a cross-departmental analysis of So far, all the investigation has been on one side, and how this change might affect all parts of the United people are reaching conclusions that the evidence does Kingdom. It appears that the Scotland Office Minister not support. is already ahead of the curve in that respect. If the Government have, indeed, already carried out some Gordon Banks: I would argue that the independent preliminary studies into the Bill’s proposals, I would be commission’s job is to scrutinise both sides of the interested to know whether the BIS Minister or the hon. argument independently. Only then can it comply with Member for Castle Point have any preliminary ideas of the Bill and the regulations to make the position fair for the initial financial burden of such a change on the all parts of the United Kingdom. I trust the independent Government and the economy. I note that the hon. commission to be able to do that. With great respect to Lady has tabled a number of written parliamentary Members who are present, I suspect that most of them questions to Government Departments. They have received have decided whether they support the Bill, but I am mixed responses, which highlights the need for much 1143 Daylight Saving Bill3 DECEMBER 2010 Daylight Saving Bill 1144 more detailed cross-Government research and study. I Gordon Banks: If the hon. Lady had been listening to hope that will be facilitated in Committee, should the my remarks, she would have known that we are not Bill be passed today. I would also be grateful if the going to oppose the passage of the Bill today. However, Minister confirmed whether the Government have had some questions need answering and that is why the any discussions with our devolved Administrations about Committee and the commission will sit. It is right that the contents of the Bill. these questions are asked and that some of these concerns As has been mentioned, this is not the first time this are voiced in this debate. issue has been debated in the House. We even have a I wish to go back to the debate about 9 to 5 and 10 to precedent between 1968 and 1971, when a similar proposal 6. We already have industries, such as construction, that was trialled. Although it was slightly different, the do not conform to a traditional working day. I wonder impact was, perhaps, comparable. It might surprise whether any study has been commissioned on how Members to learn that I was 13 when those first trials these changes will have an impact on family life as a took place, and they clearly had an effect on some result of possible work practice changes, rather than people in Scotland. I am reminded of the event by just the leisure aspect. Such work practice changes may footage that showed schoolchildren walking to school come about if people whose jobs currently operate from wearing headlamps and reflective sashes. [Interruption.] 8.30 am to 5 pm find themselves working from 10 am to The Minister mentions miners’ lamps, and I was about 7 pm in future. to come on to that. With Scotland’s proud traditions of Matthew Hancock: Given that the hon. Gentleman coal mining, I am sure those headlamps were not in has made a strong argument for the need to ask more short supply back then, but I would guess a supply of questions and receive more answers, for example, on the headlamps might be harder to find today after the construction industry, why will he not vote in favour of decimation of the coal mining industry in Scotland by the Bill? the Conservative party. That is my one partisan comment of the day, and I hope the House will allow me it. I am Gordon Banks: I have already told the House that we sure my hon. Friend the Member for Midlothian are not going to block the progress of the Bill. We look (Mr Hamilton) will, as a former miner, have appreciated forward to the information that will flow from the Bill it, although he may be too busy keeping his eye on the and allow us the opportunity to come back to have a clock to have taken note of the remark. full vote before any overall change is made to the time On a more serious note, I have to confess that the structure in the United Kingdom for a period longer issue of children walking to school, or waiting at the than the trial period. roadside to be picked up to go to school, in the dark still I have discussed only a few of the issues that have concerns me greatly. I acknowledge the work carried concerned me and are concerning others outside this out by the Policy Studies Institute; although I am not House. If Members on the Government Benches did qualified to comment on whether there was any link not share these views, they would not be proposing the between the daylight change and those statistics, I think commission and so on. The Opposition do not intend it is worth noting. It also again illustrates that this Bill to oppose Second Reading stage today. However, as I requires further, and much more detailed, scrutiny. have outlined, many issues deserve much greater scrutiny I also note that there has been a sustained campaign in Committee, should it be the will of the House that with many external supporters, but one thing I have the Bill is passed today. learned as an MP is that the loudest voice is not always We should not be making decisions in this House on the right voice. I am not saying we disagree with the the basis of emotion; we should be making informed analysis and the opinion put forward by these many and decisions, which is what the electorate expect of us. The varied organisations, but there are some inconsistencies. Bill proposes to give us a raft of information, on the For example, the study by the Policy Studies Institute basis of which we would be able to make well-informed said that car accidents were more likely in the evening decisions, not emotional ones. peak because of reduced visibility.However, if we implement this change will we not simply displace those accidents 1.7 pm to the morning? I also do not agree that people are more The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, attentive in the morning than in the late afternoon or Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey): I congratulate early evening. These themes must be developed further the hon. Member for Castle Point (Rebecca Harris), in Committee and by the independent commission. because in my many discussions with her during the I will conclude in a moment, but one issue that has, past few weeks she has shown a huge amount of knowledge perhaps, been missing from the debate so far is the and passion about this issue, and enthusiasm for it, and change in people’s lifestyles across the UK that this she displayed that again when she opened this Second change might cause. Indeed, one constituent who contacted Reading debate. me to voice her opposition to the Bill suggested we This has been a well argued, serious and good-natured might have to change the working day in Scotland from debate. We have heard different voices from different the traditional 9 to 5 to 10 to 6. parts of the United Kingdom; we heard from representatives of Berwick-upon-Tweed, Cornwall, Scotland, Northern Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con): Does Ireland and Wales. I am particularly grateful to the hon. the hon. Gentleman not agree that given that this Bill Member for Castle Point because until I knew that I promises a detailed analysis and a trial, and given that it had to deal with her Bill I had not realised that I was a could save 100 lives on the roads, create 80,000 jobs and Minister of time—perhaps I should have done, given cut 450,000 tonnes of carbon emissions, as the Mayor that the former Business Secretary, Lord Mandelson, of London says, if there was ever a political no-brainer, was known as the “prince of darkness.” Obviously, I this is it? have had to get to grips with these issues. 1145 Daylight Saving Bill3 DECEMBER 2010 Daylight Saving Bill 1146

[Mr Edward Davey] must lead us to oppose the Bill, is that we cannot make this change unless we have consensus throughout the Concerns have been raised in the media about this United Kingdom. That has recently been made clear by change. Reference has been made to a certain Peter the Prime Minister on more than one occasion. Hitchens during our debate, as has the idea that somehow We must acknowledge that the change would have we would be adopting Berlin time. So I congratulate my widely differing impacts on day-to-day life in different hon. Friends the Members for Ealing Central and Acton parts of the UK. They would be particularly acute in (Angie Bray) and for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood), Scotland and Northern Ireland, where it would not get who have rechristened the question one of “Churchill light in mid-winter until nearly 10 am in Glasgow, time.” That is not only a positive reference to the last Edinburgh and Belfast; in Lerwick on the Shetland wartime coalition, but a reference to the great man’s islands, it would not get light until 10.8 am on new membership of both the Liberal and Conservative parties. year’s eve. Although hon. Members have spoken of As the hon. Member for Castle Point said, the subject changes in public opinion in Scotland, it is clear that of this Bill is a perennial issue, which has been debated much opinion understandably remains against the proposal. and discussed often in this House and elsewhere. However, The case is particularly difficult in Northern Ireland it seems that this time those who wish to effect this and I listened with great interest to the hon. Member change have done some excellent research and have for Belfast East (Naomi Long), who approached the mobilised their arguments very effectively. I shall begin debate in a considered and objective way. As she said, by briefly summarising the Government’s position. I unless the Republic of Ireland also made the change, agree with the hon. Lady that some of the arguments there would be additional cross-border complications. put forward for lighter evenings are compelling. Evidence These issues would need further consideration and careful would indeed appear to suggest that there could be an prior consultation with the Irish Government. overall reduction in the number of road accidents and fatalities, and there could be benefits for some business sectors, particularly those most reliant on trade with Malcolm Bruce: Does my hon. Friend agree that the other parts of the European Union. In addition, recent point made in an earlier intervention that Northern studies suggest a possible positive impact on energy Ireland would automatically follow whatever we did usage and, as a result, carbon emissions. was a bit patronising and arrogant given the consequence in places such as Galway, where sunrise would be at However, we entirely appreciate that the arguments 9.51 am? It is pretty reasonable that the Republic of do not all point in the same direction. There are concerns Ireland should have a view on that. about the longer, darker winter mornings that would result: much is said about the impacts in northern parts Mr Davey: I shall discuss that in more detail, particularly of the UK, but a change would mean delaying dawn in in relation to Galway bay, if my right hon. Friend will mid-winter even in London until after 9 o’clock, as my be patient. right hon. Friend the Member for Gordon (Malcolm Bruce) has pointed out. The Government’s view is that the consensus across all parts of the UK needed to justify passing legislation Mr MacNeil: I want to challenge the argument that on this does not exist. That simple fact must lead us to there would be a carbon saving, because empirical oppose the hon. Lady’s Bill today, but I hope that some studies show the exact opposite—more electricity would of my later remarks will be of comfort to her. be used on the darker mornings and power consumption would increase by between 1% and 4%. Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): I agree with much of the Minister’s comments and I have concerns Mr Davey: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s about the Bill, but should it not at least proceed? There intervention. I shall assess that issue and put both sides is a debate to be had out there and the public are really of the argument because we must have a balanced interested, so why not let it proceed so we can go approach to this important debate. through those arguments once and for all? I have also heard arguments about the disadvantages of very late light evenings in summer. Experience of a Mr Davey: If my hon. Friend will have a little patience, similar change in Portugal suggested problems with I hope that he will react positively to some of my later children’s sleep patterns and some have suggested there remarks. could be implications for antisocial behaviour. In other Our quandary is this: we appreciate the benefits that areas, the case remains unproven. I think that the hon. the change could bring, but we do not want any one Member for Castle Point would accept that it is unclear community to be disadvantaged, or for its members to whether there would be a positive impact on crime rates feel that they have had such a fundamental change to and general public health. Some of the claims about the their daily lives foisted upon them. extremely positive impact for specific sectors would no There have been regular debates about the benefits of doubt benefit from closer scrutiny. the change advocated by the hon. Member for Castle Against that background, it is not surprising that Point. Trying to change the clocks is, as I said, not a opinion remains divided. People’s views depend significantly new idea. It is more than 40 years since an attempt was on where they live, what they do for a living and made to move away from Greenwich mean time in the whether they enjoy outdoor pursuits. Also relevant are winter months as well as the summer throughout the personal preferences such as whether one is a morning UK. Between 27 October 1968 and 31 October 1971 an person or not. I am not sure whether you are a morning experiment was conducted, and summer time—that is, person, Mr Deputy Speaker—you are shaking your Greenwich mean time plus 1 hour—was adopted head. One thing we remain convinced about, which throughout the year in order to test public opinion 1147 Daylight Saving Bill3 DECEMBER 2010 Daylight Saving Bill 1148 about continuous summer time. Although this was British Government decided, as we had in the 1960s, that it summer time all the year round, it was known as British would be beneficial to be in the same time zone as its standard time. neighbours and trading partners. The experiment was There were two general arguments for a move to abandoned in 1996 and Portugal reverted to GMT British standard time. The first was that the move because its population decided that the gains of lighter would avoid the inconvenience of changing the clocks evenings were not, in the end, offset by the pain of in the spring and autumn. The second depended on the darker mornings. So perhaps the change did not bring fact that in those days most of our trading partners on all the benefits that were hoped for, which highlights the the European mainland were on central European time practical reality and consequences of an actual change. throughout the year, the concept of summer time not Some of the complaints resulting from the Portuguese being one that we had managed to sell to them at that experiment were not necessarily ones that I had immediately time. So by adopting permanent British summer time, thought of. For example, the light summer evenings we brought ourselves into line with those countries at a apparently had a disturbing effect on children’s sleeping time when we were eager to increase trade with our habits, which in turn led to poor performance in school European neighbours, and at a time before e-mail and and lack of concentration. Pollution from road traffic other technology made communication possible at any increased as the rush hour in the summer months time of day or night. coincided with the hotter times of the day. Let us Consultations carried out by the Government in 1966, remember that these are actual findings from an actual before the experiment to change to British summer time experiment. throughout the year, revealed the divergence of opinion Perhaps more importantly, Portugal found that the between the majority of people in England and Wales, energy savings arguments were relatively weak. The who favoured British standard time all year round, and intended savings in household electricity consumption those in Scotland and the north of England, who were were disappointingly low as, according to the report, opposed. Nevertheless, the experiment went ahead and the change resulted in an “insignificant saving.”It would lasted for three years. A review of the experiment was appear that the extension of daylight hours meant that conducted in the winter months of 1968-69 and 1969-70. people tended to engage in other leisure activities after The review found that it was impossible to quantify at work, which might have been good for the leisure and that time many of the more important claims about the tourism industry but unfortunately led to higher energy advantages and disadvantages of British standard time. consumption. However, what the review did reveal was the many practical objections that were raised by the farming and Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): construction industries and others involved in outdoor Will the Minister speed up his statement? Many Members work, such as road maintenance workers, postal workers on both sides would like to get home before it gets dark. and dairy workers, particularly in the north of England and Scotland, who claimed that the change caused Mr Davey: I should say that I do not intend to speak discomfort and inconvenience because of the late sunrise for too long, if that encourages my hon. Friend to in winter. They also claimed that they could not easily retake his seat. change their working hours because of public demand for early services. Those objections would probably Mr MacNeil: Will the Minister give way on that have less force today as the economy is less dependent point? on agriculture, and equipment can operate at night, but they are still a factor. Mr Davey: On getting home before it gets dark? There was also concern about hazards to schoolchildren particularly in rural areas, who would be going off to Mr MacNeil: Is not the intervention of the hon. school up to an hour and a half before dawn. We have Member for North West Leicestershire (Andrew Bridgen) heard much about that argument today. It appears that an example of such a speedy, kamikaze, headlong and any increase in road casualties in the mornings would blinkered rush into an inevitable period of repentance? be at least offset by reductions in the evenings, but I urge the Minister, as he is doing, to inform the House significant concerns about that remain, particularly in of matters regarding Portugal, which I certainly did not more northern areas. know about, and, please, to continue. Following a free vote—I repeat, a free vote—in Parliament on 2 December 1970, the House voted by Mr Davey: I am grateful for that, but my hon. Friend the decisive margin of 366 to 81 to revert to the current the Member for North West Leicestershire (Andrew arrangements. There must have been some weight behind Bridgen) always goes about things in a calm, balanced that decision if, having lived through the experiment for and measured way. three years, so many Members in all parts of the House There was also evidence, gathered by the Portuguese were not persuaded. Portugal did exactly the same after Government at the time, that people’s mental health it experienced four years of a similar experiment. suffered, and there was an increase in the sales of If we want to get a more recent idea of how a change tranquilisers and sleeping tablets as many people, like to our summer time arrangements might impact on the their children, were unable to get enough sleep. Information United Kingdom, we can look to Portugal, which moved from insurance companies indicated that there was a to central European time in 1992. Of course Portugal is rise in road traffic claims, rather than the reverse, and in a different geographical location from us, but being the Portuguese Government decided that the disadvantages at the westerly extremity of Europe it is currently on the outweighed the benefits, so they went back to Greenwich same time zone as the UK and Ireland. Since the mean time. Their view was that there was nothing to majority of its trade is with the European Union, its prevent any business that traded internationally or 1149 Daylight Saving Bill3 DECEMBER 2010 Daylight Saving Bill 1150

[Mr Davey] think that any change that might contribute to saving energy and reducing our carbon output needs to be throughout Europe from starting their operations earlier considered carefully. if they wanted to, but that there was no need to I have looked particularly closely at the evidence on inconvenience the whole population on their behalf. that issue, because it is not totally one-sided. The report So, we have had two experiments in different countries for the 10:10 Lighter Later campaign quoted studies by which were both abandoned not necessarily for the Cambridge university that suggested that darker evenings same reasons, but because on the whole more of the produce a 2.2% increase in demand for electricity in the population found that the change affected their lives for late afternoon and early evening, which requires the use the worse, rather than for the better. of the most expensive supply source provided by inefficient power stations that have to be brought on line to cope Mr Bradshaw: I am sorry and surprised that the with the demand. The studies also suggested that a Minister sounds more negative than the shadow Minister, reduction in CO2 emissions of 1.2 million tonnes could but may I concur with the hon. Member for North West be achieved during the six winter months, which is the Leicestershire (Andrew Bridgen) by suggesting that the equivalent of removing 20,000 cars from our roads over Minister’s speech would benefit enormously from a the same period. radical sub-editor’s pen? However, a recent response from the Department of Energy and Climate Change to the Energy and Climate Mr Davey: One thought that of the right hon. Change Committee pointed out that energy saving benefits Gentleman’s speeches on many occasions, but, as I are far from clear-cut. It concluded that although we thought he would know, it is incumbent on the Government might expect overall energy use to be reduced by extending to put their thinking on the record, because people want British summer time, the effects are likely to be small. to understand why the Government have reached their The most significant effect would be the switch of decision. lighting demand from the evening to the morning. Although, on the one hand, the working day would be more aligned with natural daylight, leading to a reduction Mr Reid: I hope that my hon. Friend will not pay any in demand, there are other factors, not least that households attention to those who want him to curtail his speech. I may be more likely to turn lights on when it is dark than am very supportive of what he says and want to hear all off when it is light. Energy use might therefore increase that the Government have to say. due to people leaving lights on after switching them on because of the darker mornings. Although evening peak Mr Davey: And I am keen to say it. electricity may flatten or reduce, evening peaks between I was saying that we have had two experiments in Britain and France may become more aligned, which different countries which were abandoned not for the would have implications for prices and security of supply same reasons, but because on the whole more of the in situations of low generation capacity margin. population found that it affected their lives deleteriously. Finally on this issue, a study in 1990 by Paul Littlefair, Of course, the argument that it is necessary to be in the the project leader for the Building Research Establishment’s same time zone as other member states in the European programme of daylight research, concluded that the Union is perhaps less important than it was, because introduction of single/double summer time would lead expansion has meant that the EU spans three time to extra lighting energy costs, probably to the tune of zones, not just one. £10 million a year. We should remember that Portugal Jersey also deserves a mention. We have heard about ended its experiment with central European time because Gibraltar, but what about Jersey? Normandy is just the small energy savings could not justify the inconvenience 14 miles away from the Channel Islands, but, despite that the change created. being closer to the French coast than to the UK mainland, In this area, as in others, the evidence is not clear-cut. in a referendum in October 2008 Jersey residents voted However, the importance of the climate change agenda against moving to central European time by 17,230 votes means that even relatively small savings are worth while. to 6,564. As I am a firm believer in that agenda, I believe that we should consider this matter seriously. Several hon. Members rose— I shall turn to the arguments regarding business and trade. One of the major arguments for the 1960s experiment Mr Davey: I am not going to give way. I want to make of moving to British standard time was that it would be some progress, and then I shall take some interventions. far easier to do business with our European neighbours, which would have positive impacts on our economy and Of course, much of the reason for the vote against prosperity. The European Union remains our largest the change was that the residents did not wish to be in a trading partner, but since 1970 the world has changed different time zone from the rest of the United Kingdom, and is now almost unrecognisable. We now have a but it has to be said that farmers in Jersey were among Union of 27 member states over three time zones, the most vociferous opponents of a move to central whereas previously the UK was trying to join a common European time. market of six countries all in the same time zone. At Let us consider the detailed arguments that have been that time, the population and the Government were put forward today, starting with the arguments on interested in tapping into the prosperity that access to energy saving and climate change. Apart from the general that market could bring. attractiveness of lighter evenings, one of the most persuasive arguments in favour of moving the clocks forward is to Mr MacNeil rose— save energy. One reason why I came into politics was to Mr Davey: I want to make some progress, because I push forward the green agenda, and like most people I have an important announcement to make to the House. 1151 Daylight Saving Bill3 DECEMBER 2010 Daylight Saving Bill 1152

The Republic of Ireland is one of our most important would have done, and it would also have had a far EU trading partners—we trade more with southern greater impact on wider society.For example, improvements Ireland than with Brazil, Russia, India and China. That in driver behaviour, car safety, road designs and speed is partly for historical reasons and partly because many restrictions will have contributed to a fall in casualties. multinational companies have their headquarters there. Sadly, it has taken the recent banking crisis in Ireland Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): A Friday for us to remember how important our trade with morning Bill on this matter came before the 1997 Ireland is. There would be concerns in that regard if we Government and was talked out, and I believe that the harmonised our time with the European mainland, last Government talked one out. I hope that today, the because we would be unharmonising it from the Republic Minister will vote with his Conservative colleagues in of Ireland. favour of the Bill. What of the large proportion of our business that is not conducted with the EU? Who would benefit and Mr Davey: I do hope to be able to get to my concluding who would be the losers? Companies trading with the remarks. [HON.MEMBERS: “Hear, hear!”] It will make far east might benefit, while those trading with the USA me very popular with my hon. Friends. might not. Once again, we realise that there is no right Another issue that has been raised in the debate is the answer and that compromises must be made. leisure and tourism industry.The Lighter Later campaign’s report makes much of the fact that tourism and leisure Naomi Long: On the inconvenience to those who would be boosted by £2.5 billion to £3.5 billion, and trade with the US, we should remember that the US is that an extra 60,000 to 80,000 jobs would be created. I one of the biggest foreign direct investors in the Northern am not yet entirely persuaded by the evidence that has Ireland economy. That is another specific way in which been presented. Many overseas tourists come to the UK the measure would impact on Northern Ireland and it for our wonderful cultural attractions and history, which must be given close consideration. of course can be appreciated at any time of the day. When people are on holiday, they can choose exactly Mr Davey: The hon. Lady is absolutely right. I have how to plan their day to make best use of the daylight taken the trouble to speak to the Irish ambassador to hours. London to ask for his views and those of his Government I understand that evidence is available showing that, on this issue, and I want to put those views on the particularly in the so-called shoulder seasons of spring record. and autumn, more people would be tempted to go out and visit leisure attractions if it were lighter longer, and Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): Forty that jobs would probably be created. The research shows years after the last experiment, is it not right for the that that would particularly benefit certain towns. More Government to consider the fact that the population robust research is therefore needed. We need to understand has changed? We have an older population who will whether the change would lead to a net creation of jobs benefit from the extra hour. Farming has also changed or whether there would be any displacement of employment hugely, with much more milking being done and cattle in other areas. being kept inside, so there is no reason not to change the time. I am surprised that the Government are not more Brandon Lewis: I do not mean to protract the debate, supportive of the Bill. but does the Minister agree that one benefit in those shoulder seasons for an area such as Great Yarmouth, Mr Davey: I urge my hon. Friend to be a little patient, where tourism is important, would be that we could but I would say that if he had listened to my remarks, he move away from the 16% to 18% unemployment in would know that I was agreeing with those exact points. some areas that is caused by the closed season? It might I wish to move on to one of the major benefits of just help employment and back up the figures that he is daylight savings. It is considered that moving to central talking about. European time would prevent many serious road accidents and fatalities, and I totally accept that good evidence is Mr Davey: That is why I am keen to see extra research available. ROSPA produced a paper in support of the on the matter. At the moment, the evidence is not private Member’s Bill tabled by the hon. Member for absolutely clear. South Suffolk (Mr Yeo) in 2008, which showed that I wish to discuss Scotland, which is a key issue in the 80 fatalities a year could be saved. Department for debate. The Prime Minister has made it very clear that Transport figures corroborate that statistic. In Scotland, we need consensus, and that has clearly not been the evidence from the Transport and Road Research Laboratory case in the House tonight. [Interruption.] I have obviously after the 1960s experiment showed that road casualties got the wrong time zone. had declined by 17% in Scotland, compared with 11.7% As we all know, altering our clocks cannot have an across the whole of Great Britain. effect on the amount of daylight, and the hon. Member Even in the matter of road safety, however, we should for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) made remember that other factors are at play. Our streets are that point very well. The issue is how we distribute the becoming ever safer, and we have one of the lowest rates hours of daylight that we have. Hon. Members have of road deaths and serious injuries in Europe. The 1968 discussed different sunset times in the debate. Under the experiment was conducted at the same time as the first proposals, sunset in Edinburgh in mid-October would drink-driving laws came into force, and they will have move from 6.15 pm to 7.15 pm, but sunrise would not made a material difference. It is possible that other be until 8.45 am, and on new year’s eve, it would not get initiatives to improve road safety have had a far more light in Lerwick until after 10 am, as I said earlier. It is beneficial impact on road safety than the time change therefore unsurprising that the Scottish Government 1153 Daylight Saving Bill3 DECEMBER 2010 Daylight Saving Bill 1154

[Mr Davey] provision that would automatically trigger a trial if the proposed analysis reached a positive conclusion. As are nervous of such a change, and that they have such, passage of the Bill would still risk being perceived said that they would not want it imposed on their by many in Scotland and Northern Ireland, and by the population. devolved Administrations, as an attempt by Westminster We should remember that Scotland is not only further to impose unwelcome change. I acknowledge, however, north than the rest of the United Kingdom, but quite that the Lighter Later campaign has made some good far west too—surprisingly, Edinburgh is west of Bristol— points about the potential benefits of change to the UK which means that, come winter, it has relatively little as a whole, and I again pay tribute to her efforts. daylight, in fact about eight hours, and that that light The Government agree that this is an important issue comes later. It is possible in principle to have two UK that must be taken seriously. As a result, although we time zones—one for Scotland, which could perhaps cannot support the hon. Lady’s Bill—and I would urge include Northern Ireland, and one for England and the House not to give it a Second Reading—I can Wales—but we should rule out that option on such a announce that we intend to consider the question further. relatively small island as ours. We should remain a Specifically, if the Bill does not progress today, we United Kingdom. intend to do two things. First, my right hon. Friend the I have heard what the hon. Member for Castle Point Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills and others have said about the evidence of changing will write to the First Ministers in Scotland and Wales, opinion in Scotland, but that evidence is far from and the First Minister and Deputy First Minister in definitive. Although the Scottish Government and many Northern Ireland, not just to draw attention to this Scottish MPs and MSPs from all parties remain opposed debate and the arguments made in favour of change, to the change, the matter is being debated in the Scottish but to invite them to consider entering into a dialogue Parliament. A recent motion in the Scottish Parliament, with us on this matter. That is the way to achieve the which was signed by MSPs from all parties, stated: consensus that the Prime Minister believes is necessary. “That the Parliament notes that consideration is to be given by Secondly, the Government would intend to publish a the UK Government to move Britain’s clocks forward by one review of the available evidence concerning the likely hour; believes that such a move would be detrimental to Scotland, effects of moving to central European time in the UK. in particular raising concerns over road safety in the early morning This review would be a cross-departmental effort, drawing and the safety of children walking to school, and could have a negative effect on Scottish businesses, including the construction on relevant unpublished data held by Departments, and and agricultural sectors, and urges UK ministers to retain GMT include consideration of the coverage of the evidence in the winter and BST in the summer.” base, identifying any gaps and providing views on its Of course, if the Scottish people clearly decide that the validity. Although that might not be as comprehensive a evidence shows that there would be many benefits for consideration of the matter as the hon. Lady’s proposed them as well as those living further south, the position commission might achieve, but it would be a significant could change, but we must have the consensus that the step forward in the analysis of the arguments for and Prime Minister demands. against change on this important issue. As such, I hope In conclusion, the Government see many arguments it would also facilitate a future dialogue on the matter in favour of the change that the hon. Lady is promoting. into which the devolved Administrations might wish We would all appreciate the chance to make the most of to enter. lighter evenings and welcome the benefits to energy I hope that the House will agree that our proposals saving and road safety that the change might bring, but provide a more appropriate way forward on this important unless and until we can extend the hours of daylight—I subject and that they can garner greater consensus doubt that we could do that—lighter evenings means across the UK than the Bill. darker mornings. A responsible Government must take careful account of the disadvantages that that would Rebecca Harris claimed to move the closure (Standing bring to certain communities. Order No. 36). The Prime Minister was therefore quite right to make Question put forthwith, That the Question be now it clear that any change would need the support of all put. parts of the UK. As things stand, despite some of the The House proceeded to a Division. arguments we have heard today, it remains clear that there are a number of significant issues in respect of Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I ask the such a change for Scotland and Northern Ireland, and I Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the No believe that we cannot go forward with the consent of Lobby. all three devolved Administrations. In addition, the subject of the Bill is a devolved The House having divided: Ayes 123, Noes 8. matter in Northern Ireland, so any UK-wide legislation Division No. 142] [1.41 pm would require the consent of the Northern Ireland Assembly. Until we have clear evidence of the necessary AYES consensus across the UK and the necessary consent of Adams, Nigel Barron, rh Mr Kevin the Northern Ireland Assembly, the Government’s clear Afriyie, Adam Barwell, Gavin view is that it would be inappropriate for this Parliament Aldous, Peter Bell, Sir Stuart to pass the hon. Lady’s Bill or any other legislation on Alexander, Heidi Berger, Luciana this matter. Baker, Steve Betts, Mr Clive That point applies to the hon. Lady’s Bill even though Baldry, Tony Bingham, Andrew it does not directly propose a move to central European Banks, Gordon Blackwood, Nicola time or an immediate trial. After all, the Bill includes a Barclay, Stephen Boles, Nick 1155 Daylight Saving Bill3 DECEMBER 2010 Daylight Saving Bill 1156

Bottomley, Peter Lee, Dr Phillip Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I ask the Bradley, Karen Leech, Mr John Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the No Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Leslie, Charlotte Lobby. There seems to be another problem, perhaps Brake, Tom Lewis, Brandon with frozen pipes. Bray, Angie Lloyd, Stephen Brazier, Mr Julian Long, Naomi The House having divided: Ayes 92, Noes 10. Bridgen, Andrew Lopresti, Jack Division No. 143] [1.55 pm Brine, Mr Steve Lucas, Caroline Brooke, Annette Macleod, Mary AYES Bruce, Fiona MacShane, rh Mr Denis Buck, Ms Karen Maynard, Paul Afriyie, Adam Jones, Mr Marcus Buckland, Mr Robert McDonnell, John Aldous, Peter Kelly, Chris Burley, Mr Aidan Meale, Mr Alan Baker, Steve Kirby, Simon Burns, Conor Menzies, Mark Baldry, Tony Lee, Dr Phillip Campbell, Mr Alan Metcalfe, Stephen Barclay, Stephen Leslie, Charlotte Collins, Damian Michael, rh Alun Barron, rh Mr Kevin Lewis, Brandon Colvile, Oliver Mordaunt, Penny Barwell, Gavin Lloyd, Stephen Corbyn, Jeremy Munt, Tessa Bell, Sir Stuart Long, Naomi Creasy, Stella Newton, Sarah Betts, Mr Clive Lopresti, Jack de Bois, Nick Nokes, Caroline Bingham, Andrew Lucas, Caroline Dobson, rh Frank Ottaway, Richard Blackwood, Nicola MacShane, rh Mr Denis Dowd, Jim Owen, Albert Bottomley, Peter Maynard, Paul Dromey, Jack Parish, Neil Bradley, Karen McDonnell, John Ellison, Jane Pawsey, Mark Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Metcalfe, Stephen Brake, Tom Michael, rh Alun Ellwood, Mr Tobias Percy, Andrew Brazier, Mr Julian Mordaunt, Penny Elphicke, Charlie Perkins, Toby Bridgen, Andrew Munt, Tessa Evans, Jonathan Perry, Claire Brine, Mr Steve Newton, Sarah Field, rh Mr Frank Phillips, Stephen Brooke, Annette Nokes, Caroline Field, Mr Mark Pound, Stephen Foster, Mr Don Bruce, Fiona Nuttall, Mr David Reckless, Mark Gale, Mr Roger Buckland, Mr Robert Ottaway, Richard Rudd, Amber Glen, John Burley, Mr Aidan Owen, Albert Ruddock, rh Joan Godsiff, Mr Roger Collins, Damian Parish, Neil Sandys, Laura Goldsmith, Zac Colvile, Oliver Pawsey, Mark Goodman, Helen Skinner, Mr Dennis Corbyn, Jeremy Percy, Andrew Gray, Mr James Slaughter, Mr Andy Creasy, Stella Perry, Claire Gummer, Ben Smith, rh Mr Andrew de Bois, Nick Phillips, Stephen Gyimah, Mr Sam Smith, Angela Dobson, rh Frank Qureshi, Yasmin Hamilton, Mr David Smith, Nick Dowd, Jim Reckless, Mark Hancock, Matthew Stephenson, Andrew Ellison, Jane Rudd, Amber Hands, Greg Stewart, Bob Evans, Jonathan Ruddock, rh Joan Harris, Rebecca Syms, Mr Robert Field, rh Mr Frank Sandys, Laura Harvey, Nick Thomas, Mr Gareth Foster, Mr Don Smith, rh Mr Andrew Heyes, David Tomlinson, Justin Gale, Mr Roger Stephenson, Andrew Hollingbery, George Tredinnick, David Glen, John Stewart, Bob Godsiff, Mr Roger Hollobone, Mr Philip Tyrie, Mr Andrew Syms, Mr Robert Goldsmith, Zac Hughes, Simon Vickers, Martin Tomlinson, Justin Gray, Mr James Huppert, Dr Julian Walley, Joan Tredinnick, David Gummer, Ben Jackson, Glenda Weatherley, Mike Tyrie, Mr Andrew Gyimah, Mr Sam Jenkin, Mr Bernard White, Chris Vickers, Martin Johnson, Diana Hancock, Matthew Whittingdale, Mr John Walley, Joan Johnson, Joseph Harris, Rebecca Weatherley, Mike Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Heyes, David Jones, Mr Marcus White, Chris Hollingbery, George Kelly, Chris Tellers for the Ayes: Whittingdale, Mr John Khan, rh Sadiq Mr Greg Knight and Hollobone, Mr Philip Kirby, Simon Yasmin Qureshi Hughes, Simon Tellers for the Ayes: Huppert, Dr Julian Mr Greg Knight and Johnson, Joseph Charlie Elphicke NOES Bruce, rh Malcolm Stewart, Iain NOES Davey, Mr Edward Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Bruce, rh Malcolm Skinner, Mr Dennis Nuttall, Mr David Tellers for the Noes: Coffey, Dr Thérèse Stewart, Iain Offord, Mr Matthew Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil Davey, Mr Edward Rees-Mogg, Jacob and Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Jenkin, Mr Bernard Rosindell, Andrew Mr Alan Reid Offord, Mr Matthew Tellers for the Noes: Rees-Mogg, Jacob Mr Alan Reid and Question accordingly agreed to. Rosindell, Andrew Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil Question put accordingly, That the Bill be now read a Question accordingly agreed to. Second Time. Bill read a Second time; to stand committed to a Public The House proceeded to a Division. Bill Committee (Standing Order No. 63). 1157 3 DECEMBER 2010 Gangmasters Licensing (Extension to 1158 Construction Industry) Bill Gangmasters Licensing (Extension to Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): Like the Construction Industry) Bill hon. Gentleman, I supported the introduction of the 2004 Act, but does he agree that there have been problems in the way in which the GLA has operated since 2.9 pm then? Some parts of it have become bureaucratic Mr David Hamilton (Midlothian) (Lab): I beg to and interventionist, and some parts are expensive. Some move, That the Bill be now read a Second time. legitimate gangmasters have encountered difficulties in I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for their legitimate operations as a result. If the hon. Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Jim Sheridan), who Gentleman’s Bill becomes law, will he ensure that the presented the Bill that became the Gangmasters (Licensing) GLA’s application to the building industry is slightly Act 2004. I also thank my hon. Friend the Member for different from its application to the agriculture and Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey) and other food industries? colleagues who did a power of work on that Bill. Mr Hamilton: That is not the information that I have The Bill proposes to extend the remit of the Gangmasters received. Many people say that, by and large, the arrangements Licensing Authority, which currently covers only the have worked very well. However, we will certainly need agriculture and food processing sectors, to the construction to tweak the system to ensure that it applies properly in industry. Gangmasters in those sectors are required to the construction industry, and that the beneficial hold licences and to pay the very small fee of £400, but developments in the agriculture industry are transferred. if they are able to expand into the construction industry, It is not a question of increasing bureaucracy. the fee will be reduced in proportion to the number of people whom they employ. Construction is a dangerous industry, with a bad In the agriculture industry, licences are not revoked record on health and safety and employment rights and for a small transgression. The GLA works with gangmasters a record of avoidance of employment taxation. The Bill to try to ensure that they meet the necessary requirements, will tackle those problems. The Gangmasters Licensing and only in the event of serious and continued breaches Authority works; it does a good job and is supported by will the GLA use its power to revoke a licence. Since the a wide range of groups including unions, employers and Act came into operation, 110 of the 1,200 licensed industry groups, as well as non-governmental organisations gangmasters have had their licences revoked. The such as Oxfam and Anti-Slavery International. The gangmasters’ organisation supported all those revocations. GLA has forced rogue gangmasters out of the relevant sectors, but not out of the economy. Our aim is to the Given the shortage of time, I shall have to abbreviate extend the GLA’s powers, and to transfer powers away my remarks and not list all the case studies. from the employment agency standards inspectorate, a failing body that does nothing to support or protect Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op): honest employers. Does my hon. Friend agree that the Act was successful because it engaged everyone, from the National Farmers Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): For the benefit Union to the Transport and General Workers Union, of new Members such as myself, can the hon. Gentleman and that it has been a quiet success because it has dealt explain what has changed in the six years since the adequately with the areas of responsibility? When it original legislation was passed in 2004? Why is it now was first introduced, I had ministerial responsibility. felt to be necessary to add construction workers, when The Government said, “Let us see if it works in this they were not included in the original measures? area of endeavour, and if it does perhaps it can be extended elsewhere.” Would it not be a terrible shame if the opportunity to explore that expansion were not Mr Hamilton: We have just sat through three hours of taken today? debate on another Bill, so I cannot go into all the details of such arguments as the time available to me has been Mr Hamilton: It certainly would. I congratulate my cut right down to the bone. It is right that we discussed right hon. Friend on the tremendous work that he did that earlier topic of course, and in that debate it was as a Minister at the time. As he says, the Act has been a said that we should have an experiment and review success story that has not reached the press. The GLA things. Similarly, we said at the time of the original Bill has kept its head down and worked hard with the that we would review how the GLA worked, and at industry, and we now want that work to be extended. some point we might come back with further proposals. We are doing that now. We have looked at the legislation The Bill does not create any new workplace regulations; and how it is working, and we now feel it is appropriate it merely changes the enforcement of the existing regulations. to transfer powers into this new area. That will raise more revenue in increased tax take than it costs. The current net cost of the GLA is £4 million a Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con) year, but according to the Treasury’s own figures, false rose— statements of employment in the construction industry cost £350 million a year. There are other ways in which the Bill will create efficiencies on the front line. It will Mr Hamilton: I have not got much time, so I am reduce the number of duplicate back-office roles between trying not to take too many interventions. the GLA and the employment agency standards Members come to this House for a range of different inspectorate, and will help to deal with issues such as reasons. When I was a young delegate at a colliery, I had trafficking. In the last few years, some Conservative to do one the saddest things I have ever had to do in my Members have drawn attention to the amount of trafficking life. A young lad in his 20s had been killed in an that is taking place, with the support of Oxfam, Anti-Slavery accident. Along with a colleague, I had to go to see his International and the Home Affairs Committee. mum and dad the following day to explain what had 1159 Gangmasters Licensing (Extension to 3 DECEMBER 2010 Gangmasters Licensing (Extension to 1160 Construction Industry) Bill Construction Industry) Bill happened in the accident. I therefore have a vested securing parliamentary time for his Bill. I recognise the interest. I have a lot of friends who work in the construction depth of his interest in health and safety matters and in industry, and I worked in a dangerous industry. I know securing decent working conditions. Obviously he had a what things are like. The saddest thing anyone could track record in this area before he came to this House, ever have to do is go to a household who have just lost a and it was a pleasure to meet him to discuss his Bill beloved one who had their whole future ahead of them. prior to today. I hope that I have a few things to say to The effect of such an event on a family is terrible. That him in the time that is left to me— is why I am passionate about making sure that, where appropriate, health and safety legislation is put into Mr David Hamilton: Sit down. operation. That is important. I also believe the Government should look seriously Mr Davey: The hon. Gentleman tempts me to sit at creating a single employment inspectorate and down, but I will not be doing so quite yet because it is enforcement agency. The point has been made in the past important to put the Government’s position on the that there are too many organisations working in silos; record. I wish to say a few things that I think will have there are too many organisations working independently made his efforts worth while. of each other and fighting over different issues. I know This Government, too, are committed to improving that many friends—indeed comrades—in the trade union health and safety, particularly in construction, to ensuring movement do not want the role or structure of the fairness in the workplace and to encouraging and raising Health and Safety Executive to be altered, but I think levels of compliance with workplace rights, in the there is a strong case for merging the GLA, the employment construction sector and elsewhere. Where we differ with agency standards inspectorate, the HSE and the minimum the hon. Gentleman is on whether licensing would be an wage enforcement responsibilities of Her Majesty’s Revenue effective solution to problems in the construction sector. and Customs into a single body that could also work Of course, licensing has its place as a tool in the closely with the border agency. One such organisation regulatory arsenal. It is used in relation to labour providers or inspectorate covering all these bases would reduce in agriculture and food processing, as he said, and there the massive amount of administration involved in many are other examples too. However, licensing is an expensive cases and would mean the various agencies were working and untargeted system of regulation. It burdens all with not independently, but with each other. That, in turn, fees and inspections—the good and the bad alike—and would reduce the costs of each of these organisations with the risk that the worst businesses evade licensing while at the same time enabling them to be more effective altogether. Licensing can be an appropriate response to in what they do. particular problems in particular sectors, but that does not mean it is appropriate in all cases. Mr Gray: The hon. Gentleman seems to be moving away from what I understand to be the central purpose Andrew Bridgen: I declare an interest, as I am a major of his Bill. He is talking now about amalgamating the shareholder in a food processing business in my border agency, HMRC and other organisations, and constituency.North West Leicestershire is a major provider creating one large organisation, which I fear would be of building materials and is the base for many large particularly bureaucratic and difficult to control. Will construction companies, as hon. Members are perhaps he explain why he is seeking that very considerable aware. There is a huge difference between the agricultural bureaucratic change, when the purpose of the Bill seems and food processing industry and the construction industry, to me to be reasonably simple and straightforward? and therefore in the regulatory burden that those industries Mr Hamilton: The hon. Gentleman raises a correct can carry. The food and food processing industry is a point. If I had been able to read my entire 31-page speech, non-cyclical business—parts of it can even be counter- I would have answered all such points, but I have had cyclical—and has been almost unaffected by the economic to limit my remarks in order to allow the Minister to downtown, whereas we know that we cannot say that of respond. This is an ambition. The GLA does good the construction industry. I am very worried that any work in agriculture and we are seeking to extend its further burdens on the construction industry at this good work to the construction industry. That is what particular time, when it is struggling to deal with the the Bill is doing; it is as simple as that. effects of the last recession, could be particularly burdensome. It is not fair to compare the construction In my discussions with the Minister, I have suggested industry now with the more resilient food processing that other measures could be looked at in future to industry. reduce the bureaucratic structure of many of the current organisations. My only interest in this topic is to help honest companies, who are competing against dishonest Mr Davey: My hon. Friend is exactly right in his companies, and to protect employees. That is the key to analysis of the construction industry and of how we use the whole thing. I shall finish on that note, and I wish to licensing as one of the tools to deal with everything thank everybody for being here for the debate. All I ask from health and safety to fairness in the workplace. We of the Minister is that in the interests of fairness, which need to consider the conditions that need to be met was displayed in the previous debate, this Bill gets put before something such as licensing is appropriate. We into Committee and we can therefore iron out a number need to consider whether existing enforcement arrangements of these issues. are inadequate; whether there is hard evidence of illegal activity; where a licensing system would be a proportionate and effective way of tackling the problems that are seen; 2.20 pm and where licensing would be practicable, enforceable The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, and, finally, affordable. The Government do not consider Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey): I congratulate that those tests have been met for the construction the hon. Member for Midlothian (Mr Hamilton) on sector. 1161 Gangmasters Licensing (Extension to 3 DECEMBER 2010 1162 Construction Industry) Bill [Mr Davey] It is clear that an extension of gangmaster licensing is not the way forward, but there is a case for taking There is a misapprehension in some quarters that a fresh look at our compliance and enforcement employment agencies that supply labour to the construction arrangements. As the hon. Member for Midlothian sector are unregulated, and that workers are unprotected. said, existing enforcement functions are undertaken by In fact, regulatory safeguards are already in place for a number of bodies, including the EAS, HMRC, the all agency workers, whichever sector they work in. For GLA and the HSE. The Department for Environment, example, employment agencies operating outside the Food and Rural Affairs also has a role, in enforcing the Gangmasters Licensing Authority’s sectors have to comply agricultural minimum wage, but that will disappear with health and safety and working time legislation with the proposed abolition of the Agricultural Wages enforced by the Health and Safety Executive. They must Board as part of the public bodies review. also comply with the national minimum wage regulations The single pay and work rights line has drawn those enforced by Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. In bodies closer together and has been a major step forward addition, they must adhere to special employment agency in creating a single port of call for workers who want regulations enforced by my Department’s employment advice or to report an abuse. It has also been a powerful agency standards inspectorate—the EAS—which responds spur to more joint working between the enforcement to complaints from agency workers, and carries out an bodies, which are now carrying forward multi-issue additional programme of proactive, risk-assessed inspections cases together on a regular basis. However, the time is each year. right to ask whether it is possible to build on the On health and safety legislation and the work of the progress that has been made. I am therefore announcing HSE in the construction sector, the hon. Member for today an intention to review the Government’s workplace Midlothian is rightly worried about health and safety, rights compliance and enforcement arrangements to which is a big concern for the sector, but I am not establish the scope for streamlining them and making convinced that a licensing system would improve the them more effective. I hope that the hon. Gentleman sector’s health and safety record. The GLA applies a will welcome that announcement. The review will be range of licensing standards. The conditions for health undertaken next year, when other priorities permit, and and safety are intended to ensure agreement between will be part of the wider rolling review of employment the labour supplier and the hirer about who will have law being co-ordinated by my Department. responsibility for managing day-to-day health and safety, including the preparation of risk assessments, but that Mr David Hamilton: Who will undertake the review is already clear in construction. and who will be included in it? Under the Construction (Design and Management) Regulations 2007, the principal contractor has Mr Davey: It will start in my Department and I responsibilities for ensuring the health and safety of all envisage it looking at different ways of organising the individuals who work on a construction site regardless Government’s compliance and enforcement work. It of their employment status. This includes directly employed will consider whether incremental improvements can be workers, labour-only sub-contractors and the self-employed. made to encourage further co-ordination and joint working, In addition, each contractor working under the principal such as better legal information sharing gateways and contractor has duties to every individual working under governance machinery, which would allow priorities to their control. Those duties are on top of the requirements be discussed and set on a broader, cross-agency basis. I that individual employers have to their employees. Duties envisage it considering whether online and helpline on the principal contractor include the requirement to employment law advice channels can be linked and consult all workers involved in a project to ensure that streamlined. I also want it to look at the potential cost the measures taken to protect their health and safety are and operational benefits of enforcement models that effective. would consolidate enforcement functions in a single body or fewer bodies. Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab): I The review will initially be carried out internally am listening to the Minister’s remarks with great interest. within the Government, as I said to the hon. Gentleman, He has explained his position on why the GLA is not but will involve meetings with key interested parties to relevant to the construction industry, but will he expand solicit views and test thinking. My Department will on why he has changed his mind since signing early-day publish a statement of initial findings and intended next motion 1366 in 2009? steps next year in the context of progress reports on a wider employment law review— Mr Davey: I have considered all the issues that would have to be taken into account, such as whether it would 2.30 pm be appropriate, proportionate and justifiable, and it is clear that the EAS does an extremely good job and that The debate stood adjourned (Standing Order No. 11(2)). it deals with all the problems. Let me quote some of the Ordered, That the debate be resumed on Friday statistics, which are worth bearing in mind. In 2009-10, 28 January 2011. there were 42 fatal injuries to workers in construction, with a fatal injury incidence rate of 2.2 per 100,000 workers per year. That compares with 105 deaths and a Business without Debate rate of 5.9 per 100,000 per year in 2000-01. Injury rates are also at an all-time low since the reporting regulations changed in 1995. That is done under the existing system. FACE COVERINGS (REGULATION) BILL There has been some success and the previous Government Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second should take credit for that. time. 1163 Business without Debate 3 DECEMBER 2010 1164

Hon. Members: Object. Turks and Caicos Islands Bill to be read a Second time on 2 December 2011. Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(Angela Watkinson.) SECURED LENDING REFORM BILL Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second 2.31 pm time. Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con): I refer the House Hon. Members: Object. to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. Bill to be read a Second time on 21 January 2011. The Turks and Caicos islands are a territory of the Crown for which we in Parliament have ultimate PARLIAMENTARY STANDARDS responsibility. During the past few months, I have spent (AMENDMENT) BILL considerable time dealing with the multitude of issues Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second relating to the Turks and Caicos islands, in my capacity time. as chairman of both the Turks and Caicos islands all-party parliamentary group and the British Overseas Hon. Members: Object. Territories all-party parliamentary group, as well as in Bill to be read a Second time on Thursday 16 December. my capacity as a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee. I am thus extremely grateful for the opportunity to Adam Afriyie (Windsor) (Con): On a point of order, address the House this afternoon on this most pressing Mr Deputy Speaker. Is it recorded in Hansard that it of subjects. was a Government Whip who objected to the Second The Turks and Caicos islands are a territory of some Reading of the Parliamentary Standards (Amendment) 26,000 inhabitants situated just south of the Bahamas Bill? on the cusp on the Atlantic ocean. They have been British in one form or another for several hundred years Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I have not the and were a dependency of Jamaica until 1962, when faintest idea. As the hon. Gentleman knows, we will they became a Crown colony or British overseas territory, wait until Hansard is published. It is an accurate reflection as we now call them. The islands that encompass the of what is said in the House. territory are well known for their award-winning beaches, world-class hotels and spectacular climate. Indeed, the Adam Afriyie: Further to that point of order, Mr Deputy tagline of the islands, “beautiful by nature”, could not Speaker. Yesterday the House resolved unanimously be more appropriate. These aesthetic factors, coupled that, if needed, the Government would allow time to with a prime location for tourism, an English-speaking amend the Parliamentary Standards Act 2009. If an populace and a British constitution and judicial system amendment Bill does not come to Committee within made the islands one of Britain’s most successful territories. the next few weeks, there will not be enough time even However, the Turks and Caicos islands of the present to leave that option open. Have you received information set a far more sombre scene. Endemic corruption, economic from the Leader of the House or news of a statement turmoil and violent crime are rife. The people of the from the Leader of the House on this subject? Turks and Caicos islands are currently hard pressed for optimism. Sadly, these previously dynamic islands have Mr Deputy Speaker: No, I have not received from the been in more or less perpetual stagnation for the past Leader of the House any statement or indication that a 18 months. The questions we all have to ask are: how statement is to be made, but I am sure that those on the has that been allowed to happen under the British Treasury Bench will have heard what the hon. Gentleman standard, and why is so little being done to rectify that said. unacceptable situation? The issues stem from the previous Administration, who presided over systematic corruption, selling off vast swathes of Crown land and running the islands as a personal fiefdom, despite the protestations of the resident populace, who fruitlessly whistle-blew to the UK Government. Finally, on 18 March 2009, after almost seven years of systemic corruption and on the advice of her UK Ministers, Her Majesty the Queen issued an Order in Council, giving the governor the power to suspend the constitution. In August that year, the order was enacted. Many saw the UK Government’s intervention as a necessity, and on the day of the suspension people walked down the street waving Union Jacks, with every faith that, in true British spirit, Her Majesty’s Government would restore the territory to its former glory. So, where has it all gone wrong? How has this proud and loyal British territory found itself in an arguably worse position than before the UK Government took direct control? I am sure the Minister will tell us shortly. 1165 Turks and Caicos Islands3 DECEMBER 2010 Turks and Caicos Islands 1166

[Andrew Rosindell] Even with all those problems, the islands are primed for investors. I have it on good authority that there are I intend to outline the issues facing Turks and Caicos, businesses and individuals waiting in the wings to plough the root causes of those problems and how I feel Her investment back into TCI. Turks and Caicos desperately Majesty’s Government can address the urgent matters needs to bring that business back. Business built the at hand. Let me preface that by paying tribute to the islands and it has been their lifeblood over the past current governor, His Excellency Gordon Wetherell, three decades. To put it simply, if the Government and his team. I have seen at first hand the terrific continue to allow an unfavourable climate for private challenges that they face, and I do not envy their task. enterprise, the islands will not recover. They do a sterling job, and given the conditions we The people of Turks and Caicos have not given up; could not expect more of them. they will do everything possible to put their islands There are, however, failures, and they are the fault back on track and we have a duty to help them. The not of the interim Government but of the completely overwhelming majority of people want to create a climate insufficient support that they have been afforded by Her of genuine partnership. The interim Administration Majesty’s Government and, moreover, the previous Labour and the Governor’s office can depend on assistance Government, in particular, who grossly under-resourced from the private sector in almost every aspect of the Administration and expected the impossible. restructuring. Those in the private sector have offered office accommodation, professional services and even In August, I was fortunate enough to visit the Turks their own money to assist, but they are continually met and Caicos islands, where I met hundreds of local with barrier after barrier. Their frustration is completely people, businessmen, politicians, Government officials, understandable. They appreciate that finances and resources community workers and church leaders. All of them are tight, and that we live in a climate of austerity. They were desperate to have their voice heard, frustrated by are looking not for handouts or bailouts, but for stability the lack of action and deeply concerned about what the and economic security. Her Majesty’s Government have future might hold for them. The islands are truly in a duty to provide that. crisis. Hanging over all these matters is the remorseless task On one afternoon during my stay at the governor’s of discovery by Helen Garlick and her officers, who residence, “Waterloo”, on Grand Turk, there was an compose the special investigation and prosecution team armed robbery only a stone’s throw from the property. that has spent the past 18 months uncovering the web of Violent crime has completely spiralled out of control; scandal, fraud, bribery and corruption that silently guns and illicit substances are being smuggled over on choked the islands into their current condition. Although sloops from Haiti, and there is no way to enforce the I appreciate that their task is complex, there have been borders or territorial waters. There is, however, a $2.5 million no prosecutions. Given that the cost of the investigation radar system that would significantly alleviate the problem, is about $500,000 a month and that it is funded exclusively but for more than 18 months it has sat in a crate by the Turks and Caicos interim Government, people deteriorating, while sheer bureaucracy prevents its on the islands are understandably in uproar. It is in installation. Already, the storage fees exceed $50,000, everyone’s interest that there are prosecutions imminently, and that is a disgrace. that the uncertainty is cleared up and that a line is Meanwhile, the once-sound infrastructure of the islands drawn so that the territory can move forward. Clear and is crumbling, education is declining and illiteracy is concise parameters must be set. The people of Turks rampant. Schools and teachers have their limited resources and Caicos cannot be expected to entertain open-ended stretched to capacity, and there is no meaningful approach speculation about when the problems will be resolved. to vocational training, with only 2% of students going Finally, the constitutional reform process is one of on to college. the more emotive problems. It has been met with fierce hostility by the “belonger” population and the political The prison on Grand Turk is desperately overcrowded, parties, which have conducted their own review. All I with minors and adults sharing cells, and it was called will say is that the Government need to remember that a little more than a “training college to harden criminals” political system cannot and should not be imposed on by some of the community leaders I met. That problem an unwilling population. Such reforms must be conducted is compounded by a severe backlog in the justice in conjunction with the people—there is no other way Department, with courtrooms in meltdown and the to go about it in a modern democracy. The next election local magistrates simply unable to deal with the backlog. in the Turks and Caicos islands has been announced for I believe that many problems can be attributed to the 2012. That deadline must be met so that democracy is civil service of Turks and Caicos, which needs to be restored to the people of the islands by that time at the completely rebuilt. There have been no audited financial very latest. records since 2006, and there is an untenable 2,300 people The perpetuation of the current situation is unthinkable. on the payroll. A large proportion of the civil service Turks and Caicos is in crisis and if immediate action is has been compromised by corruption, yet there is little not taken by Her Majesty’s Government, the territory attempt at reformation. It currently takes about six will continue to deteriorate. A letter dated 4 February months to process a driving licence and 11 months for a 2010 from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to a work permit. The level of “pay to play” bureaucracy is resident on Grand Turk stated: utterly unbelievable. At the same time, the islands are, as one resident put it, “being micro-managed into oblivion”. “Whilst UK Ministers are keenly aware that the TCI Government has severe difficulties in meeting the liabilities it has inherited Layer upon layer of legislation is bottlenecking the last from the previous administration and that significant challenges vestiges of enterprise. Until the civil service is reformed, remain, they are of the view that it would be inappropriate for the work of the interim Administration will continue to UK taxpayers money to be used to fill a deficit created by the be undermined. That must be a priority. financial mismanagement of the previous administration.” 1167 Turks and Caicos Islands3 DECEMBER 2010 Turks and Caicos Islands 1168

That is an appalling and inexcusable stance. The people of the Foreign Affairs Committee. Following his visit in of the Turks and Caicos are British, too, and they August, he produced an interesting report on the Turks deserve our support. The previous Government should and Caicos Islands, which I have read in detail and be ashamed of how they handled the situation there, reviewed with civil servants. I hope to address a number and of the relationship that they fostered with the of points raised in that report as well as in the debate. overseas territories in general. As my hon. Friend knows, this Government’s approach I can assure the House with certainty that the bill to to the overseas territories is very different from that of the UK taxpayer will be far greater in the long run if our predecessors. We are proud of our shared history urgent action is not taken now. I have every faith that and value the territories as part of the wider British our new Conservative-led government will do everything family. We want our relationship to be mutually beneficial in their power to ensure that the current wrongs are and successful. We know there are many challenges, but righted and that the failings of the past are corrected. our relationship is strong enough to tackle them as they We need to deploy more civil servants from the UK to arise. Our support for the islands is a good example of reform the TCI civil service and more police to crack our new approach. down on crime, and we need to draw a line under My hon. Friend referred to the islands as being our prosecutions to ensure that the full weight of the law is very own soil. We are committed to the principle that brought down on those who were deceitful. We also the overseas territories should have the first call on the need to ensure that more funds are made available to UK’s aid budget. However, that cannot be in the form the TCI, and not simply to tide the islands over for a of unconditional handouts of UK taxpayers’ money. few more months. It must be enough to stimulate the We are providing support in the Turks and Caicos economy back into action radically. Islands where it will have the most lasting benefit by, for I speak frankly when I say that there is no use in a example, funding advisers to develop the wide-ranging package of support that is aimed merely at maintaining reforms that are needed, giving temporary financial the status quo. I recognise that in the current climate of support to help protect the islands from financial collapse, austerity no decision on finance is taken lightly, but I and funding the deployment of UK police officers. We put it to the Government that they have committed to are doing what we can to support the territory despite giving millions of pounds in aid to foreign countries, the financial crisis here in the UK. In exchange, we want and yet let poverty and despair be fostered on our very the territory to manage its affairs as successfully and own soil. Her Majesty’s Government now have an ideal effectively as possible. In today’s world, that means opportunity to change that in the Turks and Caicos, sound public finances, with high-quality and accountable and with the right attitude and approach we can show government and public services. our citizens overseas that they are not on the periphery The Government will change how we handle overseas of government and that no matter where one is in the territories business. We plan to involve other relevant world, British is British is British. Departments in our new strategy. The FCO will continue The Government need to show the global community to lead and co-ordinate the work of Her Majesty’s UK that just because someone happens to live in a different Government on the overseas territories, but there is a time zone from London, it does not make them any less role for much wider and deeper engagement and British. With that in mind, the people of the Turks and commitment by other Government Departments and Caicos should be afforded the full support of the bodies in the UK. We have already adopted such an Government to ensure that they realise a secure and approach in the Turks and Caicos Islands. prosperous future. They will not be impressed by more We want to open doors between the territories and rhetoric. the UK. We want to see more co-operation between At this point, I wish to commend Her Majesty’s central and local government, and the public and private Government in Canada, who, despite having no sectors, which my hon. Friend mentioned. We want to responsibility for the Turks and Caicos, are sending do more to support economic and commercial development over members of the Royal Canadian mounted police in the territories. My hon. Friend is right to say that to help us rescue the situation. Should that not be our fostering such development is essential. However, we responsibility? It is, after all, a British territory, not a cannot ignore the importance of good governance and Canadian territory. a strong, independent public service. That is in everybody’s The people of the Turks and Caicos islands want to interests and is crucial in returning the islands to prosperity. see fast and radical action from Her Majesty’s Government A very important part of that is public financial here in London to restore to their homeland the governance management, but there are other weaknesses, such as a that one would expect for a British overseas territory, a lack of transparency, a failure to follow due process, territory of the Crown. and—frankly—poor performance by some public officials, which must be addressed. 2.47 pm An enormous amount of work has gone into the islands since the constitution was suspended in August The Lord Commissioner of Her Majesty’s Treasury 2009. Much progress has been made on tackling the (James Duddridge): It is a particular privilege to speak considerable financial, economic and governance challenges at the Dispatch Box on this important issue, and I that the governor and the interim Government inherited. thank my hon. Friend the Member for Romford (Andrew A team of UK-funded technical experts is working Rosindell) for securing the debate. He has a long history hard with the Turks and Caicos Islands public service. of support not only for the proud and loyal Turks and Together, they are making improvements across a wide Caicos Islands but for other overseas territories, an range of areas for the benefit of the islands. The FCO advocacy that I am sure he will continue not only as has funded experts in fields such as immigration, Crown chairman of his all-party groups but as a senior member land, good governance, revenue and customs, constitutional 1169 Turks and Caicos Islands3 DECEMBER 2010 Turks and Caicos Islands 1170

[James Duddridge] that, because it is incredibly important that all parties engage during these difficult times to produce the right and electoral reform, and very importantly, economic solution, not just for the UK Government but for the development, to which my hon. Friend referred. The people of those islands. Importantly, that consultation Department for International Development has funded process will include an invitation from the Turks and experts in public financial management, including a Caicos Islands advisory council and consultative forum chief financial officer, who arrived in September. to discuss their recommendations and those of the However, as my hon. Friend pointed out, much remains adviser. to be done. The UK Government have monitored the In the light of the commission of inquiry’s work of the current Turks and Caicos Islands Government recommendations, improvements will be made to a since the suspension of parts of the constitution in number of areas of the islands’ constitution. Some of August 2009 and considered carefully the challenges the issues under consideration are more sensitive than that lie ahead. Taking those factors into account, in others. For example, there will be a need for increased September, the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign oversight by the governor, whom my hon. Friend met—I and Commonwealth Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member am glad that the visit went well. He holds the governor, for North West Norfolk (Mr Bellingham), announced who is doing a very good job, in high regard. However, during his visit to the Turks and Caicos Islands that the there might be a need for increased oversight by the UK Government did not want to postpone elections governor in a new constitution. There is also the sticky any longer than absolutely necessary, but that they issue of who will be able to vote in a forthcoming could not, alas, be held in 2011. He said that before the election, so we will have to consider the franchise in a end of this year, he would set out milestones that would lot more detail. There are a number of difficult issues, need to be met before elections can take place, ensuring but there is no reason to duck them. The future stability clarity for everyone involved, both here and on the and good governance of the Turks and Caicos Islands is islands. I expect him to come forward with those in the at stake. coming weeks. It is critical that we get the investigations right. The The Under-Secretary made many recommendations UK Government have agreed to provide the initial in his recent report, and I should like to address those in funding needed to set up a special investigation and the seven minutes remaining. The UK’s support for the prosecution team. The FCO funded the team from its Turks and Caicos Islands cannot take the form of creation in August 2009 until February 2010, at the unconditional handouts of UK public money. I am sure significant cost of approximately £600,000. The cost of that my hon. Friend the Member for Romford will the team has now transferred, as my hon. Friend is agree that ultimately, we want the Turks and Caicos aware, to the Turks and Caicos Islands Government, Islands to stand on their own two feet, but within the and the DFID-funded chief financial officer has included broader family. the cost of the team in her budget calculations. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for My hon. Friend talked about the speed of prosecutions. International Development said in a written ministerial That, quite properly, will be a matter for Helen Garlick statement in July that DFID had decided to propose a and the Attorney-General, rather than the UK temporary package of financial support to the islands. Government. I agree with my hon. Friend that there has That support is conditional on the Government been a worrying increase in violent crime on the islands—he strengthening their capacity and systems to manage witnessed it himself. Steps have been taken to increase their public finances and balance their budget within the penalties for gun crime and increase the police the next three years, which is a very tough challenge, as presence on the islands, particularly on the main island we know from the ones that we face on the mainland. of Providenciales. I am pleased to say that the FCO has The DFID-funded chief financial officer is heading funded the deployment of five Metropolitan police this difficult work, and to address the immediate shortfall, officers, in addition to the Canadian officers whom he the Department has provided short-term loans to the has already mentioned. The Metropolitan police officers islands. That will help. Our aim remains to restore and arrived last month and are working well with the Royal firmly embed the principles of sound financial management, Turks and Caicos Islands police to review current unsolved sustainable development and good governance, which cases of violent crime, including murder and armed will help to rebuild confidence in the Turks and Caicos robbery. The officers are also providing guidance and Islands and their ability to manage their own affairs. A advice on lines of inquiry for intelligence and investigations. public sector reform adviser has been funded by DFID, My hon. Friend asked about prisons and radar. I will but they only arrived in the Turks and Caicos Islands write to him on those subjects. this week. I am sure that they will have a big impact. As I said at the start of my speech, the Government Also an immigration adviser has been seconded from are taking a new approach to the overseas territories—an the UK Border Agency, and is already making an approach exemplified by the support that we are giving impact. That secondment was funded by the Foreign to the Turks and Caicos Islands. Much work has been and Commonwealth Office. The UKBA adviser has done and much progress made, but I acknowledge that been there since September and is doing well. much more remains to be done. We will work with the The constitutional and electoral reform adviser published Governor and all the other bodies to ensure that this her latest recommendations on the Turks and Caicos happens. The UK Government and the current Turks Islands in mid-November, and the people of the islands and Caicos Islands Government, led by the Governor, have until 14 January next year to submit further comments will continue to work hard to ensure that the principles on those recommendations. The political parties on the of good governance, sound financial management and islands have been encouraged to participate in the sustainable development are firmly embedded across consultation process, and I encourage them further in the public service and the wider society. 1171 Turks and Caicos Islands3 DECEMBER 2010 Turks and Caicos Islands 1172

I commend my hon. Friend for his interest and support, Question put and agreed to. which I am sure will continue, and which stands the Turks and Caicos Islands Government in very good 3pm stead. I promise to write to him with a full and proper reply on prisons, rather than rush one in the remaining House adjourned. time available to me at the Dispatch Box today.

91WS Written Ministerial Statements3 DECEMBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 92WS Written Ministerial EU statistics The Council adopted conclusions on the annual report on EU statistics, which reviewed the progress made on Statements statistical governance. Other business Friday 3 December 2010 a) Baltic Sea Strategy The Council took note of a presentation by the TREASURY President of the European Investment Bank regarding the EIB’s contribution to the EU’s strategy for the Baltic sea region. The Government welcome the EIB’s ECOFIN work in the region, and support its intentions to extend the programme to the Danube region. The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne): b) Representation of the Council at the G20 ministerial The Economic and Financial Affairs Council was held meetings in Brussels on 17 November 2010. The following items The Council discussed EU representation at G20 were discussed: ministerial meetings. The Government do not see a Directive and Regulation on VAT treatment of insurance need to change the existing arrangements, whereby the and financial services EU presidency represents the EU and the Commission ECOFIN held an orientation debate on proposals to is an observer. modernise the VAT exemption for financial services, c) Credit Rating Agencies reflecting market developments over the last 30 years. The Council agreed that discussions would continue at At the UK’s request, a statement was laid in the working group level, taking account of the views expressed minutes of the Council outlining remaining concerns by delegations. with an amending regulation for credit rating agencies. Administrative Co-operation in the field of taxation The Council took note of concerns expressed. The presidency gave an update on negotiations on Meeting of the EU and EFTA Ministers of Finance and this directive, which aims to improve arrangements for Economy exchange of information and bring the EU into line Ministers held a meeting with their European Free with OECD standards. The Council agreed that they Trade Area counterparts. The meeting focused on the would aim to reach political agreement on this issue at consolidation of Government budgets as well as on their December meeting. financial market regulation and supervision. Implementation of the 2009 budget An extra Economic and Financial Affairs Council ECOFIN took note of the presentation by the Court was held in Brussels on 28 November 2010. of Auditors on its annual report on the management of Ministers unanimously agreed to grant financial the EU’s general budget. The Council called on all assistance, in principle, in response to the Irish authorities’ parties involved in the management of the EU budget request, in order to safeguard financial stability in the to persist in their efforts to improve controls and to euro area and the EU as a whole. reduce margins of error in budgetary payments. The Government continued to press the case for value for Euro-area and EU financial support will be provided money in the EU budget. The Council is expected to on the basis of a programme which has been negotiated adopt the recommendation to discharge the budget at with the Irish authorities by the Commission and the its meeting in February. International Monetary Fund, in liaison with the European Follow-up to October European Council Central Bank. The Council took note of the deliberations of the The financial package of the programme will cover European Council. Ahead of the December ECOFIN, financing needs up to ¤85 billion, including ¤10 billion officials will prepare a report on the work of the economic for immediate recapitalisation measures, ¤25 billion on taskforce. They will also take forward work on bank a contingency basis for banking system supports, and levies and on the how the impact of pension reforms ¤50 billion covering budget financing needs. Half of the should be accounted for in the implementation of the banking support measures (¤17½ billion) will be financed EU’s stability and growth pact. by an Irish contribution through the Treasury cash Follow-up to the G20 Seoul Summit on 11-12 November buffer and investments of the National Pension Reserve The Council discussed the follow-up to the G20 Fund. The remainder of the overall package should be summit, including as regards the issues of macroeconomic shared equally (¤ 22½ billion each) among: imbalances and the reform of financial regulations. the European Financial Stabilisation Mechanism (EFSM); Financing of measures against climate change the European Financial Stability Facility (EFSF) together ECOFIN had a high-level discussion on the UN with bilateral loans from the UK, Denmark and Sweden; and Secretary-General’s Advisory Group on Finance report, fast-start finance, and the green fund. The Council will the IMF. further consider this issue at the December ECOFIN. In principle, the UK’s bilateral loan is for £3¼ billion, Pensions and the rate of interest on the loan will be similar to the The Council adopted conclusions on a report on rates levied by the IMF and the euro area. pensions. The Government support this report, which The main elements of policy conditionality will be emphasises the importance of fiscal sustainability and enshrined in Council decisions to be formally adopted extending working lives. at the ECOFIN Council on 7 December. 93WS Written Ministerial Statements3 DECEMBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 94WS

The president of the Eurogroup made it clear that the (GMES) initiative and Galileo as two priority European UK will not be part of the permanent bail-out mechanism, space programmes. A number of member states expressed and that the European financial stability mechanism, concern with Galileo’s budgetary situation. The UK agreed under the previous Government in May, and of also insisted the Commission should improve its which we are part, will cease to exist when that permanent management of the Galileo programme and emphasised eurozone mechanism is put in place. the importance of completing the Galileo mid-term review without delay. The role of space in Europe and the balance of BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS responsibilities between the EU and the European Space Agency (ESA) were discussed. ESA said that this was Yorkshire Forward an issue they and the Commission were currently reflecting on. Hungary said it would discuss the EU-ESA relationship under its EU presidency in the first half of 2011. The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Vince Cable): I have decided to appoint Julie Innovation Kenny as the chair of Yorkshire Forward. The Competitiveness Council agreed conclusions reacting Julie will commence as chair designate, to ensure to the Commission’s EU2020 flagship communication, continuity of leadership from 6 December 2010 and Innovation Union (the Commission’s recent strategy for take up post as chair from 14 December 2010. improving Europe’s capacity to innovate). The appointment will be until the close of Yorkshire Ministers debated how to overcome barriers to innovation Forward. in Europe. The UK offered strong support for the The appointment has been made in accordance with Commission’s European innovation partnerships concept, the Commissioner for Public Appointments code of but felt access to finance for innovation was a problem. practice. It believed EU funding could be used to augment existing national pre-commercial procurement schemes. Competitiveness Council The UK also pointed to problems relating to the implementation of the EU clinical trials directive which it saw as hampering innovation in the pharmaceuticals The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David sector. Willetts): The EU Competitiveness Council took place European Research Area in Brussels on 25 and 26 November 2010. The Minister of State for Universities and Science represented the The Competitiveness Council adopted conclusions UK on research and innovation items and Andy Lebrecht, on joint programming (the voluntary process of the UK’s Deputy Permanent Representative to the EU co-ordinating national research programmes in certain represented the UK on industry, internal market and scientific fields). The conclusions welcomed a biennial space items when a Minister was not in attendance. A report on joint programming and endorsed voluntary summary of the discussions follows. guidelines for the process. One change was made to the draft and sent to Council at the request of the presidency—a Industrial, Internal Market and AOB Items reference to the importance of work on biomarkers in There was a ministerial debate on the recent Commission the pilot joint programming initiative on neurodegenerative communication setting out its new integrated EU industrial diseases was weakened. The presidency updated the policy ahead of the adoption of Council conclusions at Council on recent efforts to strengthen the European the December Competitiveness Council. The document research area and on the work of the strategic forum for received broad support and the majority of member international science and technology co-operation. states, including the UK, mentioned the importance of 7th Framework Programme (FP7) SMEs. The UK emphasised the need for a strong single market, smart regulation, keeping open markets, ensuring Ministers discussed a presentation on the interim sectoral initiatives focus on areas where the EU can add evaluation of the EU’s current R&D funding programme value and the importance of the whole supply chain. over lunch. Areas considered for improvement in the On green vehicles, the Commission presented their review included low female participation rates, report on implementation of the clean and energy efficient underperformance of many newer EU member states vehicles strategy, and the presidency introduced a joint and low business participation rates. The interim review declaration on electro mobility. Nine member state recommended that the framework programme should: signatories felt this should be given priority in research be amended to help develop Europe’s innovation capacity and development. On the EU patent some member and the research base; enhance large-scale research states felt the enhanced co-operation procedure under facilities; maintain its current level of funding for future the Lisbon treaty should be pursued to make further programmes; be radically simplified; not include any progress as member states were unable unanimously to new types of funding instrument; be linked better to the agree to a language regime. The presidency said the structural funds; and be opened up more strategically to issue would be discussed again as a full agenda item at non-EU countries. the December Competitiveness Council. International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor (ITER) Space The Commission set out its proposals for reforming A resolution was agreed setting out priorities for the governance of the ITER programme, and called for future European work on space policy. There was broad voting in the governing board to be amended so that agreement that the space sector could offer significant vote weights were linked directly to financial contribution. economic benefits. Ministers noted the importance of The Commission also noted the failure of the Council the global monitoring for environment and security and European Parliament to reach an agreement on 95WS Written Ministerial Statements3 DECEMBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 96WS meeting the ITER funding shortfall in 2012-13. The Employment) Regulations 2006. Under FLIS, BDUK Commissioner hoped agreement would be reached shortly. have been appointed as the single incentivised contractor, The UK argued in its intervention on Innovation Union at a cost of £800 million over 11 years, to deliver that ITER procurement contracts needed to be more MOD’s logistics information capability. FLIS is a modern accessible for SMEs. commercial arrangement with BDUK as the single supplier responsible for delivery of current systems in a more effective and financially efficient manner. BDUK COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT will manage a number of sub-contractors, many of whom are currently prime suppliers to MOD. Council Tax The new arrangement will ensure the long-term delivery of operationally essential logistics information to both The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for MOD and industry and the significant financial efficiencies Communities and Local Government (Robert Neill): The will contribute to the Government’s strategic deficit coalition Government are clear that there should be no reduction programme, without reducing operational unexpected council tax revaluation rises in the next five capability. years. We recently announced that we would therefore This new contract with BDUK provides an effective cancel council tax revaluation due in England in 2015 framework which will improve the delivery of today’s and confirmed the Government would not carry out logistics information needs, and enable future changes revaluation in England during the lifetime of this to be made as a result of the strategic defence and Parliament. It is right that Welsh taxpayers have the security review to reflect the changing needs of defence. same protection. I am therefore pleased to announce that the Government intend to include in the forthcoming Localism Bill the HOME DEPARTMENT necessary provisions to: cancel the legal requirement for a council tax revaluation in Forced Marriage and Learning Disabilities (Practice Wales that was due to take place in 2015; Guidelines) devolve the power to Welsh Assembly Government Ministers to decide the timing of council tax revaluations in Wales, rather than being bound to the timetable set out in legislation The Minister for Equalities (Lynne Featherstone): To passed following the Local Government Act 2003. mark the International Day of Disabled Persons today, As a result of the last council tax revaluation in on behalf of Her Majesty’s Government, the Forced Wales in 2005, four times as many homes moved up one Marriage Unit (a joint Home Office/Foreign and or more council tax bands than moved down. Two-thirds Commonwealth Office unit) launches multi-agency practice of the net rises were amongst homes originally in bands guidelines for supporting people with learning disabilities. A to C. We believe this hit the less well-off households The guidelines have been developed to assist frontline the hardest. professionals, such as the police, children and adults This Government want to see Welsh taxpayers get the social care services, education and health professionals, same certainty about revaluation as English taxpayers. care workers, charities and volunteers handling cases of It will be a matter for the Welsh Assembly Government forced marriage involving people with learning disabilities. to decide whether they will now issue the same reassurances It covers issues relating to a person’s capacity to consent to Welsh taxpayers as have been given to English taxpayers. and the use of the Mental Capacity Act 2005 to establish No revaluation will now take place unless the Welsh this. Assembly Government Minister determines otherwise. The document draws on research carried out by the Ann Craft Trust in partnership with the Judith Trust, DEFENCE and statistics on reports to the Forced Marriage Unit’s helpline. It complements the “Multi-Agency Practice Guidelines: Handling cases of forced marriage”published Operational Logistics Information Capability by the FMU last year and should be read in conjunction (Improvements) with these. The guidelines can be downloaded from on the Forced The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence Marriage Unit’s webpage at: www.fco.gov.uk/forcedmarriage (Peter Luff): I am pleased to announce that the Ministry and hard copies will be placed in House Libraries. of Defence (MOD) has signed an 11-year contract with Boeing Defence UK (BDUK) for the future delivery of operationally essential logistics information across defence. WORK AND PENSIONS The new contractual arrangement has been developed under the umbrella of the Future Logistics Information Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer Services (FLIS) project, and represents a step-change Affairs Council (Agenda) improvement to the quality of logistics information available to the armed forces. Logistic support is vital across the full range of military tasks, including those in The Minister of State, Department for Work and support of military operations in Afghanistan. Pensions (Chris Grayling): The Employment, Social Policy, At present, logistics information is delivered by a Health and Consumer Affairs Council will be held on complex set of contractual arrangements, supported by 6 December 2010 in Brussels. I will represent the UK, an MOD in-house team. Those posts will transfer to except for the agenda item on the pregnant workers BDUK under Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of directive where the UK will be represented by the 97WS Written Ministerial Statements3 DECEMBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 98WS

Minister responsible for employment relations, consumer There will be a discussion of the general approach to and postal affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for the European Yearof Active Ageing 2012 which proposes Kingston and Surbiton (Mr Davey). to promote active ageing and to do more to mobilise the There will be two orientation debates. The first is on potential of the rapidly growing population in their late the pregnant workers directive, which is being renegotiated 50s and above. in a co-decision procedure between the Council and the There will be a progress report on the directive on European Parliament. As the European Parliament’s equal treatment where some progress has been made position goes much further than the Commission’s original under the Belgian presidency. The Commission will also proposal, and would require 20 weeks’ fully paid maternity present its joint report with the SPC on the social leave, two weeks’ paternity leave and 20 weeks’ adoption dimension of the crisis. leave, the UK will not agree to these changes. The Commission will present the biannual report on The second is on retirement pensions, in particular social services of general interest which annexes a voluntary maintaining a “living standard to a reasonable degree” framework that was developed collaboratively with member and our reaction to the Commission’s Green Paper. states and stakeholders. The report is an overview of This will include the presentation of a joint report from the initiatives implemented to guarantee and assess the the Social Protection (SPC) and Economic Policy quality of social services. Committee (EPC) on pensions. The UK will stress the Ministers will consider a number of Council conclusions. need to ensure that pensioners have the income to live There are two sets on gender; one on the implementation with dignity in retirement and that each member state of the strategy on equality between women and men, should find its own balance for public pensions. and one on the fight against inequalities in salaries There will be an exchange of views on the Employment between women and men. There are also conclusions Policies in Europe 2020 and the European Semester. on the fight against poverty and social exclusion, This will include information from the Commission and employment policy for the low carbon economy, the presidency on the EU 2020 flagship projects “New impact of the ageing workforce, adequate and sustainable Skills and Jobs” and “Youth on the Move”, approval of pensions, the social dimension of the Europe 2020 two Employment Committee (EMCO) opinions, on strategy and social services of general interest. employment and climate change and an initial country Under any other business, there will be information analysis of the draft national reform programmes, and from the Commission on the New Disability Strategy approval of a joint EMCO-SPC opinion on the Joint 2010-2020 and the presidency will provide information Assessment Framework and the Employment Monitor. on the second Euromed conference, the third conference The UK will stress how important it is that employment of Asia-Europe meeting (ASEM), conclusions of the is at the heart of the Europe2020 strategy and that there 5th Report on Economic, Social and Territorial cohesion, must be a robust methodology for assessments, but it is and the Equality summit. There will also be information important to recognise that this should not lead to on various conferences under the Belgian presidency policy prescriptions in an area that is primarily member and the Hungarian delegation will outline the programme state competence. and events for their forthcoming presidency. 1047W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1048W Written Answers to Enterprise Finance Guarantee Scheme Mr Foster: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Questions Innovation and Skills how much was allocated to the (a) tourism and (b) creative industries under the Enterprise Finance Guarantee scheme in each year Friday 3 December 2010 since the scheme’s inception. [27925]

Mr Prisk: The Enterprise Finance Guarantee (EFG) is a loan guarantee to encourage additional bank lending BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS to viable SMEs that lack collateral to secure a normal commercial loan. As such, the Department does not Animal Experiments allocate funds to particular sectors or businesses. But rather it is for the accredited lender to make commercial lending decisions to individual SMEs seeking finance Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for on a case-by-case basis. The Department plays no role Business, Innovation and Skills what steps his Department in the application or decision-making process. plans to take to contribute to the Government’s objective to reduce the use of animals in laboratory experiments. The Standard Industrial Classification (SIC code) for each business offered and/or drawing down a loan [28215] backed by EFG is recorded. Whilst businesses in these Mr Willetts: The Home Office is responsible for sectors comprise elements of several SIC codes we are regulating the use of animals in scientific research and able to give the following estimate of lending to businesses testing, and is leading the development of a strategy to under EFG since its launch in January 2009 to date. deliver the Government’s objective to work to reduce As of 2 December, over 760 businesses in the tourism the use of animals in scientific research. I and other sector have been offered loans with a value of almost ministerial colleagues with an interest in research using £68 million. Of which, nearly 640 businesses have drawn animals, will be meeting in the near future to discuss down loans totalling over £56 million. As for the creative how to take the strategy forward. industries sector, over 670 businesses have been offered The National Centre for the Replacement, Refinement loans with a value of over £76 million. Of which, over and Reduction of Animals in Research (NC3Rs) supports 600 businesses have drawn down loans totalling over and promotes the 3Rs in research and testing. The £66 million. NC3Rs receives around £5.1 million funding for 2010-11 In addition, the Government acknowledge that creative from this Department, through the Medical Research industries sector businesses—particularly those relying Council and the Biotechnology and Biological Sciences on intangible assets—may suffer particular difficulties Research Council. in accessing the finance that they need. For this reason, in “Financing Growth: The Government’s response to financing a private sector recovery”, published on Apprentices 1 November, the Government announced that the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and the Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for Department for Culture, Media and Sport will work Business, Innovation and Skills whether those over the together to understand whether creative businesses are age of 24 years taking a level three apprenticeship will experiencing greater difficulties than others in accessing be expected to pay fees in (a) 2011-12, (b) 2012-13 and financing. This review will be carried out to a Budget (c) 2013-14. [28652] 2011 timetable.

Mr Hayes: “Investing in Skills for Sustainable Growth” Higher Education: Bristol (16 November 2010) sets out our funding strategy for post 19 Further Education (FE) and Skills for the spending review. Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how many young For the 2011/12 and 2012/13 academic years, Government people in (a) Bristol East constituency and (b) Bristol will continue to share the costs of Level 3 Apprenticeships applied to enter university in each of the last 10 years. for learners aged 24 and above with employers. From [27940] the 2013/14 academic year, Government will no longer co-fund Level 3 and higher Apprenticeships for those Mr Willetts: The information is in the following table aged 24 and above. In this instance, where learners are and is provided by the Universities and Colleges Admissions expected to contribute towards the costs, they will have Service (UCAS): access to Government backed fee loans to defer the costs of training. Learners and employers will need to Applicants aged 20 and under to full-time undergraduate courses via agree between themselves how best to share the costs UCAS from Bristol East constituency and Bristol 2001 to 20101 and what proportion of the fees each will pay. Bristol East constituency Bristol Over the next few months we will engage with colleges, training organisations and others on the details of how 2001 284 1,535 fee loans will be implemented to ensure the approach to 2002 296 1,536 fee loans recognises the characteristics of different types 2003 310 1,599 of learners and identifies the particular delivery 2004 294 1,579 arrangements appropriate for the FE and Skills sector. 2005 374 1,822 1049W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1050W

Applicants aged 20 and under to full-time undergraduate courses via growth and jobs. The Government actively negotiated UCAS from Bristol East constituency and Bristol 2001 to 20101 the drafting of Council Conclusions in response to the Bristol East Innovation Union strategy, which were formally adopted constituency Bristol at the EU Competitiveness Council meeting on 26 2006 296 1,571 November. 2007 347 1,654 2008 330 1,791 Local Enterprise Partnerships 2009 409 1,977 20101 377 2,045 James Wharton: To ask the Secretary of State for 1 The 2010 data presented are for the provisional end of year 2010 Business, Innovation and Skills what recent meetings captured on 13 October 2010. Final end of year data will be available he has had with representatives of new local enterprise from 20 January 2011. Provisional data usually represents around partnerships. [28233] 99% of total applicants. Notes: 1. Bristol constituencies have been identified using the home postcode Mr Prisk: On 28 October we announced that 24 of regardless of declared area of permanent residence; constituencies the outline proposals for local enterprise partnerships based on 2010 boundaries received met the Government’s expectations. These 2. For the 2004 cycle applications formerly handled by the Social partnerships have been asked to start developing their Work Admissions Service (SWAS) merged into the main UCAS governance structures. system. 3. For the 2008 cycle applications formerly handled by the Nursing Other partnerships continue to develop their proposals and Midwifery Admissions Service (NMAS) merged into the main so they can be in a similar position. We will continue to UCAS system. engage with both groups of partnerships at a speed that 4. For the 2010 cycle applications formerly handled by the Centralised Applications to Nurse Training Clearing House (CATCH) merged is appropriate for them. into UCAS. Source: Local Enterprise Partnerships: Nottinghamshire UCAS Higher Education: Finance Vernon Coaker: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what progress has been Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for made on the establishment of a local enterprise Business, Innovation and Skills whether his partnership for Nottinghamshire. [28422] Department plans to continue to allocate funding to higher education institutions in London to take Mr Prisk: The Government have received a proposal account of additional costs in London in the spending for a partnership that covers Nottingham, Nottinghamshire, review period. [26192] Derby and Derbyshire. The proposal meets the Government’s expectations regarding support from business, Mr Willetts [holding answer 24 November 2010]: geography, local authority support, ambition and added This will be a matter for the Higher Education Funding value. The partnership has therefore been invited to put Council for England (HEFCE) to determine within its governance structures in place. annual budgets set by the Department. It is normal practice for the council to consult with the higher Manufacturing Advisory Service education sector on any changes to the funding formula. As part of the new student finance package for Mr Ward: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, 2012/13, there will be increases in loans for living costs, Innovation and Skills what (a) funding and (b) non- which will mean that overall, most new students, including financial resources his Department plans to provide for those studying in London, should have more support the Manufacturing Advisory Service in the next 12 months. for living costs than they do under current support [28579] arrangements. Students living away from home and studying in London will be eligible for a higher rate of Mr Prisk: The Manufacturing Advisory Service (MAS) loan for living costs; details of the London rate of loan has proved to be highly effective in assisting SMEs to will be made available in due course. improve their productivity and competitiveness in an ever increasingly challenging environment. We have made Innovation: EU Action a commitment to continue the provision of MAS following the disbanding of RDAs. We are currently in contact Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for with stakeholders and practitioners as to how the service Business, Innovation and Skills whether his can best be focused and delivered up to and beyond Department plans to respond to the EU Commission April 2012. However, no conclusion has been reached document, A Rationale for Action, SEC (2010) 1161 yet on what resources and finance will be needed over final. [28681] the next 12 months.

Mr Willetts: The Government responded to the European Manufacturing Advisory Service: Yorkshire and the Commission’s Innovation Union Communication Humber (COM(2010) 546) and underpinning staff working document A Rationale for Action (SEC (2010) 1161 Mr Ward: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, final) in an Explanatory Memorandum (EM) 14035/10 Innovation and Skills what recent discussions his dated 25 October 2010. The Government broadly welcomed Department has had with Yorkshire Forward on the scope, analysis and level of ambition within Innovation funding for Yorkshire and Humber Manufacturing Union, which underpins the Europe 2020 strategy for Advisory Service. [28580] 1051W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1052W

Mr Prisk: The Manufacturing Advisory Service (MAS) inform the development of NERC strategy for its science has proved to be highly effective in assisting SMEs to programmes, knowledge exchange activities and the improve their productivity and competitiveness in an delivery of national capability and infrastructure. Such ever increasingly challenging environment. We have made engagement enables the exploitation of NERC funded a commitment to continue the provision of MAS following science in support of new business developments in the the disbanding of RDAs. It is our intention that from marine and maritime sector and contributes knowledge April 2012 MAS will be managed at a national level but to inform the sustainable development of the wider will be delivered locally to ensure it continues to address industrial community. the needs of individual companies. We are currently in NERC has recently engaged with private marine science contact with stakeholders and practitioners as to how providers during its Ship Management Review which it the service can best be focused and delivered up to and completed in February 2009. NERC met ship owners in beyond April 2012. the UK, Ireland and Germany and three private sector Natural Environment Research Council ship operating companies. The review demonstrated that NERC manages its ship operations to a level of efficiency and effectiveness that matches industry standards. Brandon Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for NERC continues to monitor its performance against Business, Innovation and Skills by what mechanism the that of commercial operators of Government research value for money of expenditure by the Natural ships. In addition, since 1987 NERC has been a member Environment Research Council is assessed. [28129] of the International Research Ship Operators’ Meeting which shares best practice in Government research ship Mr Willetts: The Natural Environment Research Council operations. The group now consists of 19 countries. (NERC) uses two mechanisms to ensure the value for money of its expenditure. Brandon Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Firstly, NERC adopts standard HM Treasury guidance Business, Innovation and Skills what cost savings have on its decisions regarding major equipment purchases, been made by the (a) Natural Environment Research conducting a rigorous business case process that Council and (b) National Oceanography Centre in the accommodates investment appraisal evidence. NERC latest period for which figures are available. [28131] ensures the level of delegated authority afforded to individual budget holders and the sub-committees they Mr Willetts: As part of the research councils’ central manage is appropriate to their level of experience and targets for value for money savings and administrative training. For example, approximately £100 million of efficiency, the Natural Environment Research Council NERC’s expenditure is awarded as research grants, each (NERC) has reported the following savings to this of which are subject to a rigorous and independent Department: process that assesses value for money before authorisation. All of these internal mechanisms are then supported by £ million NERC’s involvement with the Research Councils’ Shared Service Centre whose strategic and operational procurement 2008/09 23.3 functions ensure NERC’s expenditure is spent with the 2009/10 38.5 most competitively priced suppliers who have met their The figures given are for NERC as a whole, including assessment of quality goods or service. the National Oceanography Centre cost centre, for which Secondly, NERC contributes to Research Council a detailed breakdown is not available. targets for value for money savings, administrative efficiency The categories of savings included are: reducing the and asset disposals. The original targets were set out in proportion of expenditure attributable to administration the NERC allocation of the science budget for 2008-09 costs; increasing efficiency; demonstrating effective to 2010-11 (dated October 2007) and have since been reprioritisation of programme spend; growing level of increased as part of the April 2009 Budget. The specific co-funding of research; and controlling the costs of level of the NERC contribution to these targets is research. agreed collectively by Research Councils through the Value for Money Efficiency Delivery Project Board. Regional Growth Fund This board reports quarterly to my Department, recording savings achieved and forecasting savings for the remainder Vernon Coaker: To ask the Secretary of State for of the spending review period. These savings are subject Business, Innovation and Skills what the (a) process to independent audit by the Research Councils’ Internal and (b) timetable is for bids to the regional growth Audit Service. fund; and who is entitled to make such bids. [28425] Brandon Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Prisk: The process for bidders wishing to apply Business, Innovation and Skills what steps the Natural for funds should be by completing the RGF application Environment Research Council has taken to engage form, which can be found at: with private sector marine science providers. [28130] http://www.bis.gov.uk/policies/regional-economic- Mr Willetts: The Natural Environment Research Council development/regional-growth-fund (NERC), via its Research Centres and Surveys, its science This webpage also contains advice and guidance on programmes and knowledge exchange activities, engages completing the form. directly and frequently with private sector marine science The first bidding round is now open and will close on providers and their representative trade bodies, through 21 January 2011. There will be further bidding rounds, a range of formal and informal mechanisms and the dates of these rounds will be published on the above interactions. Collectively these strategic partnerships webpage. 1053W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1054W

The fund’s objectives and criteria are designed to Mr Prisk: UKTI keeps all of its services to business be broad, which will allow bids from all sectors and under constant review. I have no current plans to privatise communities. Bids for funding must be from either the the Overseas Market Introduction Service. private sector or private public partnerships from across England, and be at or above the fund’s minimum threshold of £1 million. CABINET OFFICE Social Enterprises and Community Interest Companies Government Departments: Procurement Paul Maynard: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what mechanisms his Chi Onwurah: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Department has in place to support social enterprises Office pursuant to the answer of 11 November 2010, and community interest companies. [27644] Official Report, column 432W, on Government departments: procurement, in respect of what research Mr Prisk: I recognise the important role that the small and medium-sized enterprises cited excessive social enterprise sector can play in supporting future bureaucracy as an obstacle. [28679] growth in the economy. The Department is working closely with the Cabinet Mr Maude: Through Government’s regular conversations Office, who have lead policy responsibility for social with industry and SME representative groups and from enterprise, to ensure that the coalition Government the stream of correspondence received by Ministers policy increases the impact of social enterprises and from SMEs on a daily basis, Ministers are aware that their contribution to a strengthened civil society. This excessive bureaucracy is a concern for small businesses. Department’s approach is to ensure that all our work As part of the Government’s commitment to make it that impacts on SMEs takes proper account of the easier for SMEs to do business with Government, a new social enterprise dimension. online feedback facility has been launched on the No. The Office of the Regulator of Community Interest 10 website. From this feedback we will be able to take Companies (CICs) provides guidance and assistance further action. about matters relating to CICs. This includes the provision of guidance leaflets, forms, templates of memorandums Government Departments: Travel and articles of association, and awareness raising activities. This Department is currently examining the information Paul Maynard: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet made available on Businesslink.gov.uk to ensure that all Office whether he plans to bring forward measures businesses and other organisations are able to make to reduce the annual cost of grey fleet expenditure appropriate choices about the legal forms and ownership to Government departments; and if he will make a structures that best suit their operations. statement. [27588]

Students: Finance Mr Maude: ‘Grey fleet’ refers to business miles driven by employees in their own vehicles, and claimed back at Teresa Pearce: To ask the Secretary of State for a fixed mileage rate. There are clear opportunities to Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer reduce spend in this area. to the hon. Member for Wigan on 29 November 2010, The Centralised Procurement Capability being developed Official Report, column 599W, on further education: by the Efficiency and Reform Group, will transform transport, what student financial support will be in how Government buys common goods and services place in academic year 2011-12; and what changes he through centralised category management. plans to make to arrangements for student financial support in the academic year 2012-13. [28654] Existing effective practice in reducing grey fleet expenditure will be developed as a key element of Mr Hayes: As outlined in the strategy document the travel category, where work is under way to develop ‘Investing in Skills for Sustainable Growth’, published a single supply strategy which will deliver significant, on 16 November 2010, the current arrangements for sustainable cost reductions through aggregation, learner support will start to change from the 2011/12 standardisation and rationalisation. academic year. An enhanced discretionary learner support fund will be created within the next two years. By Timber arrangements we assume that the question refers to the allocation methodology that the Skills Funding Agency Mr Bain: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office will adopt to distribute the discretionary funding to what assessment he has made of the compliance of qualifying providers in 2012/13. Decisions on this allocation (a) his Department, its agencies and its non- method have not yet been finalised but the agency will departmental public bodies, (b) the Prime Minister’s work closely with the sector on the impact of any office and (c) the Deputy Prime Minister’s Office with changes to ensure funds are targeted on helping those the UN Food and Agriculture Organisation’s criteria learners facing financial difficulties. for sourcing sustainable timber. [27837]

UK Trade and Investment Mr Maude: The Prime Minister’s Office and the Deputy Prime Minister’s Office form an integral part of Joseph Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Cabinet Office. The Cabinet Office, including its Business, Innovation and Skills what plans he has to agencies and non-departmental public bodies, follows privatise the Overseas Market Introduction Service the specifications set out in the UK Government’s Timber within UK Trade and Investment. [28508] Procurement Policy when purchasing timber. This policy 1055W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1056W requires that all timber and wood-derived products Departmental Food procured by central Government Departments must be exclusively from independently verifiable legal and Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for sustainable sources or FLEGT (Forest Law, Enforcement, Communities and Local Government whether his Governance and Trade) licensed timber or equivalent. Department has guidelines on ensuring that food used Such procurements are carried out either by the for his Department’s official functions is of domestic Department’s total facilities manager providers or via a origin. [25547] framework contract. The policy’s definition of sustainability is based on Robert Neill: The Department for Communities and internationally agreed criteria for sustainable forest Local Government does not directly procure food for management. The UN Food and Agriculture Organisation official functions in its HQ, Eland House. Catering (UN FAO) have not set criteria for sourcing sustainable services are provided as part of the Total Facilities timber as such, but refer to the same internationally Management contract for Eland House delivered by agreed criteria. Therefore, the Department’s compliance MITIE plc. with any criteria to which the UN FAO would refer to is The Department works with suppliers, actively promoting ensured. DEFRA guidelines that food procured meets British or equivalent standards of production wherever this can be achieved without increasing overall costs.

COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Fire Services Audit Commission: Termination of Employment Vernon Coaker: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what recent Brandon Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for discussions he has had with the Fire Brigades Union on Communities and Local Government what settlement the likely effect on fire services of the outcome of the package has been offered to the Director of comprehensive spending review. [28329] Communications at the Audit Commission upon termination of his contract; and what estimate he has Robert Neill: I, and officials from my Department, made of the cost to the public purse of providing such have had a number of discussions with the Fire Brigades a package. [28407] Union over a range of matters, including the possible implications of the spending review. Robert Neill: This is an operational matter for the Audit Commission and I have asked the chief executive Fire Services: Pensions of the Audit Commission to write to my hon. Friend direct. Letter from Eugene Sullivan, dated 3 December 2010: Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government whether he has Your Parliamentary Question has been passed to me to reply. made an assessment of the likely effects on fire service The Audit Commission’s former Managing Director for pensions of the implementation of the proposed Communications and Public Reporting left his post on the grounds change in the measurement of inflation used to up-rate of redundancy. He received a redundancy payment of £10,178.54 pensions from the retail price index to the consumer gross, as provided for in his contract of employment. This entitled him to two weeks pay for each year of service and his service was price index. [28532] two years. He was also given eight weeks payment in lieu of notice of £20,357.08 gross. There were no other costs to the public purse. Robert Neill: No special assessment has been made of the effect on pensions paid to members of the Firefighters’ Departmental Conferences pension schemes. Pensions will continue to be protected against price increases and uprated in line with State second pensions. Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what steps he has taken since his appointment to reduce expenditure on Fire Services: Termination of Employment conferences from budgets within his responsibility. [28350] Ian Swales: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many Robert Neill: The Department has sought to significantly fire fighters were (a) dismissed from service, (b) re- reduce spending on conferences, exhibitions and similar deployed to an alternative position and (c) retired with activities since May. an ill-health or injury pension owing to a career- Such expenditure is covered by the freeze on non-essential threatening illness in (i) Redcar constituency and marketing and advertising activity, and any such activities (ii) England in each of the last five years. [28038] have been considered against the criteria for essential activity laid down by the Cabinet Office. A number of Robert Neill: Data held centrally are for Fire and potential conferences across the DCLG group have not Rescue Authorities. The numbers of fire fighters who proceeded as a result, and where exemptions have been were (a) dismissed from service, and who (c) retired granted my officials have been instructed to reduce due to ill-health are shown in the table. costs to the minimum possible, bringing activity in-house No data are held centrally on numbers of firefighters and using public facilities where feasible. who have been (b) redeployed to an alternative position. 1057W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1058W

Numbers of fighters who were dismissed from service, and ill-health Department does take steps to enable staff who want to retirements, in Cleveland and England 2005-06 to 2009-10 watch major cultural and sporting events such as the Cleveland England World Cup to do so, for example, by adjusting their Dismissal Dismissal working day, subject to business priorities. on disciplinary on disciplinary grounds/ grounds/ poor Ill-health poor Ill-health Local Government Finance performance retirements performance retirements Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for 2005-06 0 2 68 287 Communities and Local Government what steps he 2006-07 0 1 94 117 plans to take to ensure that areas with high levels 2007-08 1 n/a 96 48 of inward migration receive adequate funding in the 2008-09 0 0 94 23 forthcoming local government finance settlement. 2009-10 0 1 93 34 [28134] Source: Annual Returns to DCLG Robert Neill: We use the best data that are available Flood Control: Finance on a consistent basis across all authorities at the time we calculate the settlement. In the case of population Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for projections, these are the sub national population projections Communities and Local Government what assessment produced by the Office for National Statistics. he has made of the effects of the comprehensive We will announce our proposals for the local government spending review on his Department’s budget for flood finance settlement for 2011-12 in the usual manner in resilience measures; and if he will make a statement. due course. [26627] Local Government Finance: North East Robert Neill: The Department for Communities and Local Government does not hold a budget for food Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for resilience measures because this is a policy responsibility Communities and Local Government what estimate he of the Department of the Environment, Food and has made of the likely change in the level of central Rural Affairs. DCLG has made no assessment of the Government funding and grants for (a) Sunderland effects of the comprehensive spending review on food city council and (b) local authorities in the North East resilience measures. in the period 2010 to 2014. [28022] Floods: Upton-upon-Severn Robert Neill: We will announce our proposals for the local government finance settlement for 2011-12 in the Harriett Baldwin: To ask the Secretary of State usual manner in due course. for Communities and Local Government when the Planning Inspectorate will consider the application from the Environment Agency for consent under section 38 of the Commons Act 2006 to carry out CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT restricted works on the banks of the River Severn at Upton-upon-Severn in order to build flood defences. Departmental Contracts [27916]

Robert Neill: The Planning Inspectorate has considered Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for the application, together with the correspondence relating Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport pursuant to the Official Report to it, and has decided that a site inspection is needed to answer of 27 July 2010, , column 991W, inform its decision. A site visit by an inspector has on departmental contracts, whether he has made an initially been offered to parties to take place on 12 April estimate of the monetary value of the contracts 2011. However, the Planning Inspectorate is currently between his Department and private sector companies looking at options to hold the site visit earlier, in which will be cancelled under his Department’s February 2011. A decision on the application will be planned spending reductions in the spending review made following the site visit. period. [28678] Football: South Africa John Penrose: The Department for Culture, Media and Sport will be seeking savings over the spending Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for review period through the collaborative procurement Communities and Local Government how much his reviews being co-ordinated by the Office of Government Department spent on entertainment activities related Commerce and Cabinet Office. to the 2010 FIFA World Cup. [27366] However, the Department has not yet made any estimate of the value of contracts that may be cancelled. Robert Neill: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer from my right hon. Friend the Minister for Housing Internet and Local Government (Grant Shapps) to the right hon. Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey) Gordon Birtwistle: To ask the Secretary of State for on 5 July 2010, Official Report, column 86W. More Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what measures he broadly, the Department does not undertake spending plans to put in place to ensure internet neutrality. on entertainment on sporting events. However, the [27709] 1059W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1060W

Mr Vaizey: There is no agreed definition of net to operational delivery, as described in the latest Quarterly neutrality. However, the Government are absolutely Report on the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic committed to an open internet. The internet has brought Games, a copy of which has been placed in the Libraries huge economic and social benefits across the world, of the House, or can be accessed at: precisely because of its openness and that must continue. http://www.culture.gov.uk/publications/7535.aspx A contributing factor to the success of the internet The reconfigured funding package will provide funding has been the lack of legislative restraints that have been to ensure that all venues are secure, during the preparatory placed on it. It is our belief that improved transparency phase, through six weeks of Olympic and Paralympic requirements provided by recent revisions to the Electronic competition, and for defined operational requirements. Communications Framework, along with a competitive These requirements include shared responsibilities for market place and the ability to easily switch providers the safety of spectators and visitors between transport will mean that regulation in this area will be unnecessary. hubs and sporting venues where existing budgets cannot It is important that we give the market the opportunity cover the additional requirement, and specific extra to self-regulate, but Ofcom will closely monitor how the responsibilities for host local authorities where the burden market develops and if it develops in an anti-competitive imposed for Games-time operations is of such a scale way they will intervene. that it should not be borne solely by local council-tax In addition, I have made it clear that the Government payers. The Government also remain committed to the expect all operators providing an internet access service— public sector funding half of the incremental cost of both fixed and mobile—to offer all legal content. the Paralympic Games. The remainder of the funding Consumers should always be able to access any content package—around £0.5 billion—will be held as an Olympic or service they want to and at the speed they have contingency for cross-programme issues, including any contracted with their ISP to receive, while content providers major changes in security circumstances. Further details and applications should be able to access consumers. will be included in the next Annual Report for the ISPs should not be able to discriminate unfairly against London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games which is services or users. That means no blocking or discriminatory due to be published in February 2011. degradation of services or applications for commercial reasons. There is not yet any evidence that discriminatory DEFENCE practices are emerging in the UK, or that there is a problem with regards to how ISPs or networks manage Public Expenditure the traffic that flows over them (something they all engage in for technical reasons to deliver the best possible Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for service to consumers). And this is reinforced by the Defence how much additional funding he plans to initial responses to Ofcom’s recent consultation on the allocate to the provision of healthcare to service issue. However, I would like to stress again that should personnel as part of the comprehensive spending the market develop in a way that damages openness or review settlement for his Department in (a) 2010-11, impedes innovation in spite of the safeguards I have (b) 2011-12, (c) 2012-13, (d) 2013-14 and (e) 2014-15. detailed above, we will not hesitate to step in to ensure [26293] that the internet remains the open, innovative place we all benefit from. Mr Robathan: As announced in the strategic defence and security review, the provision of health care to Olympic Games 2012: Costs service personnel will be enhanced by an extra £20 million per annum in the spending review years of 2011-12 to 2014-15. This will be used to pay for additional Mr Ward: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, medical staff and to deliver better mental health care Olympics, Media and Sport what his most recent facilities. Department of Health funding provides for estimate is of the cost to the public purse of the standard secondary care services to service personnel; London 2012 Olympics. [26158] however, their primary care services and non-standard secondary care services are funded by the Ministry of Hugh Robertson [holding answer 2 December 2010]: Defence through Defence Medical Services. The latest anticipated final cost (AFC) of the Olympic Delivery Authority (ODA) programme is forecast at Technical Support 3 Contracting Arrangement £7.232 billion as set out in the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games Quarterly Report published Michael Dugher: To ask the Secretary of State for in November 2010. As reported since February 2010, Defence how many contracts have been let under the ODA will take on additional responsibilities for the the Framework Agreement for Technical Support 3 operation of the Olympic Park, and its venues and contracting arrangement; what the (a) highest and facilities, between 2011 and the handover to legacy (b) lowest monetary value is of such a contract; and owners. The additional forecast funding of around how many such contracts have been awarded to small £126 million for this work will bring the ODA’s AFC and medium-sized enterprises. [27806] figure to around £7.358 billion. Following the Government’s spending review Peter Luff: Since the Framework Agreement for Technical announcement on 20 October 2010, the total public Support 3 (FATS/3) was put in place in April 2009, over sector funding package for the London 2012 Olympic 1,530 individual contracts have been placed with FATS/3 and Paralympic Games remains at £9.3 billion. The contractors. The highest value contract was for £7.9 million funding package will, however, be reconfigured to reflect and the lowest for £600. Of these contracts some the changing focus of the programme from construction 684 were placed directly with small and medium-sized 1061W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1062W enterprises (SMEs). Many of those contracts placed Following the conclusion of the spending review, our with larger companies will also have benefited SMEs in decision on the future funding for the young apprenticeship the form of sub-contracted work. programme will be announced shortly. Trident Submarines Discretionary Learner Support Fund Teresa Pearce: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Education pursuant to the answer to the right hon. Defence what estimate he has made of the cost to the Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough of public purse of extending the life of the Vanguard-class 17 November 2010, Official Report, column 801W, submarines; and if he will make a statement. [21400] on education maintenance allowance, whether the £60 million funding for the discretionary learner Mr Jenkin: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence support fund will be additional to the allocation of what estimate he has made of the likely additional £26 million this year. [26590] maintenance costs arising from the extension by nine years of the in-service life of the four Vanguard-class Mr Gibb [holding answer 25 November 2010]: The submarines. [20398] level of the enhanced fund for each of the years covered by the spending review has yet to be confirmed. Dr Fox [holding answer 2 November 2010]: The 2006 Mr Ward: To ask the Secretary of State for White Paper (CM 6994) extended the life of the Vanguard- Education how much funding his Department plans to class by five years to 2024 at an additional cost of allocate for the discretionary learner support fund in £1.3 billion. As announced in the strategic defence and (a) 2010, (b) 2011, (c) 2012, (d) 2014 and (e) 2015. security review, we have deferred the successor submarine [27287] in service date from 2024 to 2028 for which we expect to spend around an additional £1.2 billion in maintaining Mr Gibb [holding answer 2 December 2010]: The the Vanguard-class. budget for the discretionary fund in the financial year The overall impact of the changes identified by the 2010-11 is around £26 million. The level of the enhanced value of money study and reported in the strategic fund for each of the years covered by the spending defence and security review will reduce costs by £3.2 billion review has yet to be confirmed. We plan to allocate the over the next 10 years. enhanced funding in line with the timetable for overall funding allocations for schools and colleges, which will be made by the end of March. Free Schools EDUCATION Stephen Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State for Advertising: Children Education what discussions he has had with the charity Chapel Street on its plans to establish free schools. Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for [23182] Education what progress the Government has made on the proposal in the coalition agreement to take steps to Mr Gibb: The Secretary of State has not met or had prevent irresponsible advertising and marketing, any discussions with the charity Chapel Street on its especially to children. [26742] plans to establish free schools. Pupils: Disadvantaged Sarah Teather [holding answer 29 November 2010]: As set out in the Department for Education business Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State plan 2011-15, we will establish an independent review to for Education whether the proportion of pupils in advise on how to address the commercialisation and (a) each school and (b) each local education authority premature sexualisation of childhood. The review will who do not speak English as their first language will be begin in December 2010 and report in May 2011. A taken into account in allocating funding under the further announcement on the scope and remit of the proposed pupil premium; and if he will make a review, which we expect will include tackling irresponsible statement. [26316] advertising and marketing to children, will be made in Mr Gibb [holding answer 25 November 2010]: We are due course. considering the responses to the consultation on school Apprentices funding which ended on 18 October, including the question of which deprivation indicator to use for the Andrew Miller: To ask the Secretary of State for pupil premium. The consultation did not propose English Education what message of congratulation he sent to as an Additional Language (EAL) as one of the options the winner of the Young Apprentice of the Year as an indicator. competition for 2010; and what plans he has for the School Food Trust future of young apprenticeships for 14 to 16-year-olds. [26765] Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Education (1) what discussions he had with the board Mr Gibb: I was pleased to attend the National of the School Food Trust prior to the announcement of Apprenticeship Awards ceremony this year and to 14 October 2010 that the Trust will become a charity; congratulate both the winner and all the young apprentices. [22678] The winner, Todd Lowdes, has secured a full apprenticeship (2) what recent representations he has received from and his young apprenticeship will stand him in good school catering providers on the future of the School stead. Food Trust; [22679] 1063W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1064W

(3) what potential donors to the School Food Trust Consequently, the Secretary of State concluded that he has identified; [22680] a fresh approach to school sport is needed and has (4) what assessment he has made of the likely announced that he will not continue to provide ring-fenced proportion of funding for the School Food Trust which funding for school sport partnerships. By removing all is to be provided by school catering providers once it the unnecessary targets and reporting requirements placed becomes a charity; [22681] on schools by the previous Government’s strategy, schools will be freed up to provide more opportunities for (5) whether the duties of the School Food Trust will competitive sport that are most appropriate for their change when it becomes a charity. [22682] own pupils. The best way to increase participation is to give schools the freedom and incentives to organise Sarah Teather [holding answer 8 November 2010]: school sport themselves, rather than imposing a central The School Food Trust (SFT) was established in 2005 Government blueprint. as a non-departmental public body (NDPB), an independent company and a registered charity. Schools: Greater London From 1 April 2011, it will no longer be an NDPB, but will continue as a charity. The SFT plans to set up a Community Interest Company to work alongside the Lyn Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for charity. It will continue to advise the Government on Education how many schools in (a) West Ham school food, but will also be free to sell its services to constituency, (b) the London borough of Newham local authorities, schools, caterers and others on a and (c) London have participated in a school sports commercial basis. partnership since the creation of the scheme. [26326] Prior to the announcement on 14 October 2010, I Mr Gibb: All maintained schools in England are met with the Chair and Chief Executive of the SFT, and currently part of the network of school sport partnerships. officials had held a number of discussions with the SFT The precise number of schools in school sport partnerships about future plans. in West Ham, Newham and London is: We expect that the SFT will continue to take forward a number of activities for the Department, and the level Number of schools in school of future DFE support will be dependent upon decisions sport partnerships taken following the spending review announcement and West Ham constituency 35 the tasks we ask it to undertake. London borough of Newham 85 Other funding will be dependent upon the additional London 2,437 activities undertaken and the take-up of services offered by the SFT. Schools: Transport No representations have been received from school catering providers about the future of the SFT, although Ministers have received correspondence on this subject. Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for Education whether he plans to permit schools and colleges to use funding from the Learner Support Fund School Sport Partnerships: Finance for the purposes of student transport. [27292]

Stella Creasy: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Gibb: Discretionary support funding may not Education what estimate his Department has made of currently be used routinely for transport to and from the likely effects of the closure of the School Sports college. The statutory responsibility for making the Partnership on the participation rates in sport of young necessary arrangements for transport to enable 16 to18- people; and if he will make a statement. [26747] year-olds (and 19 to 25-year-olds with a learning difficulty or disability) to attend education and training lies with Tim Loughton [holding answer 29 November 2010]: local authorities. The coalition Government’s approach differs from that We will consider this restriction as we develop the of the last Government. While the network helped arrangements for the enhanced discretionary learner schools to increase participation rates in the areas targeted support funding. by the previous Government, the fact remains that the proportion of pupils playing competitive sport regularly Youth Sports Trust: Finance has remained disappointingly low. The Secretary of State has decided to withdraw central Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for funding for the Youth Sports Trust because, in spite of Education what assessment he has made of the likely significant central Government expenditure, nearly a effects on the future of youth participation in sport of quarter of all pupils do not do any competitive sport at the withdrawal of funding from the Youth Sports all within their own school; and more than half of all Trust. [26741] pupils do not do any competitive sport at all against other schools. Tim Loughton [holding answer 29 November 2010]: Furthermore, the actual provision of competitive The coalition Government’s approach differs from that sport across the country has been very patchy, with of the last Government. While the network helped some 1,280 secondary schools having none of their schools to increase participation rates in the areas targeted pupils taking part in any intra-school sporting competition, by the previous Government, the fact remains that the and 710 schools where no pupils regularly take part in proportion of pupils playing competitive sport regularly any inter-school competition. has remained disappointingly low. 1065W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1066W

The Secretary of State has decided to withdraw central or sporting events or charities. Exceptionally the Nuclear funding for the Youth Sports Trust because, in spite of Decommissioning Authority (NDA) has made charitable significant central Government expenditure, nearly a donations as part of its socio-economic remit totalling quarter of all pupils do not do any competitive sport at £1,250 since 2005. all within their own school; and more than half of all pupils do not do any competitive sport at all against other schools. Service Provision Furthermore, the actual provision of competitive sport across the country has been very patchy, with Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for some 1,280 secondary schools having none of their Energy and Climate Change what structural arrangements pupils taking part in any intra-school sporting competition, are in place in his Department to enable staff of his and 710 schools where no pupils regularly take part in Department to propose innovations in working practices any inter-school competition. to improve service provision. [28680] Consequently, the Secretary of State concluded that a fresh approach to school sport is needed and has Gregory Barker: DECC has a programme of work announced that he will not continue to provide ring-fenced which is looking at how the Department will be shaped funding for school sport partnerships. By removing all and resourced in the coming spending review period. A the unnecessary targets and reporting requirements placed strand of this work includes engaging with staff via on schools by the previous Government’s strategy, schools workshops and other mechanisms so they can put forward will be freed up to provide more opportunities for ideas in a structured manner to improve working practices competitive sport that are most appropriate for their and service provision. own pupils. The best way to increase participation is to give schools the freedom and incentives to organise school sport themselves, rather than imposing a central Timber Government blueprint. Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has made of ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE the compliance of (a) his Department and (b) its non-departmental public bodies with the UN Food Climate Change: Developing Countries and Agriculture Organisation’s criteria for sourcing sustainable timber. [27840] Nicola Blackwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what plans he has to Gregory Barker: DECC follows the sustainable operations contribute to multilateral climate finance funds, on the Government estate framework which sets targets including the UN Adaptation Fund; and if he will and standards for sustainable operations, including make a statement. [27973] procurement, within central Government. Under this framework, only timber and timber products that comply Gregory Barker: Multilateral climate finance funds with the UK Government’s timber procurement policy, will play an integral part in our commitment to tackle i.e. timber originating from independently verified legal climate change. The Government have allocated £800 and sustainable sources, or from licensed Forest Law million to the multilateral Climate Investment Funds, Enforcement, Governance and Trade (FLEGT) partners, including £500 million this year. On the Adaptation can be required for use on the Government estate. Fund, we welcome the recent progress it has made in approving its first projects and accrediting implementation DECC makes use of a centrally negotiated Government agencies. framework agreement for purchasing office furniture, the main source of timber and timber-based products in In the spending review the Government committed to the Department. This agreement includes relevant provide £2.9 billion for international climate finance sustainability criteria and our office furniture supplier over four years—a significant scaling-up of resources. I is both Forest Stewardship Council (FSC) and Programme am working closely with colleagues across Government the Endorsement of Forest Certification (PEFC) certified. on how to programme this spend to meet the UK’s priorities. This will include consideration of multilateral DECC is in the process of setting up its own in-house funds and whether to make a contribution to the Adaptation procurement section having previously used the Fund itself. procurement services of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and more recently a shared Departmental Sponsorship service with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. This gives us the opportunity to implement Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy our own sustainable procurement policy, including on and Climate Change what expenditure (a) his sustainable timber, and establish procedures to ensure Department and (b) its non-departmental public compliance. bodies incurred on sponsorship in each year since 1997 DECC’s non-departmental bodies are not currently for which figures are available. [27518] covered by the Sustainable Operations on the Government Estate (SOGE) framework but are covered by the UK Gregory Barker: The Department of Energy and Government’s timber procurement policy. Those that Climate Change, including its non-departmental purchase timber or timber-based products use either public bodies, makes grants to organisations for specific the centrally negotiated framework agreements or have purposes but does not provide sponsorship for cultural a sustainable timber clause included in their own contracts. 1067W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1068W

Wind Power: Construction Mr Jeremy Browne: Our ambassador to Thailand raised refugee issues with Foreign Minister Kasit on 18 Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for November. Foreign Minister Kasit assured us that the Energy and Climate Change what estimate he made Thai authorities were helping to provide temporary of the number of new residential properties which assistance for the recent influx of Burmese refugees and were built with wind turbines in (a) 2005, (b) 2006, that no forcible repatriations had taken place. Our (c) 2007, (d) 2008 and (e) 2009. [27247] ambassador also raised the recent influx of refugees with the permanent secretary of the Thai Ministry of Charles Hendry: The Department does not hold Foreign Affairs, who stated that no forced repatriations information on the overall number of new build residential would be carried out. properties with wind turbines. We are in close touch with the United Nations High Under the previous low carbon buildings programme Commissioner for Refugees and local non-governmental (2005-10), the following grants were made for micro organisations and we are closely monitoring the refugee and small wind turbines installed on new build residential situation on the Thai-Burma border. We are clear that properties: all refugees should be treated in accordance with international humanitarian law and international refugee LCBP-1 Householders—wind turbines on new build projects principles. Number of grants Total value (£)

2005 0 0 Colombia: Embassies 2006 0 0 Sandra Osborne: To ask the Secretary of State 2007 4 7,949 for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many 2008 14 30,154 (a) British and (b) local staff are employed by the 2009 4 10,000 British embassy in Colombia. [27177] Alistair Burt: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE employs approximately 80 staff in the British embassy in Bogota, Colombia. This figure includes UK-based Bahrain: Detainees civil servants and locally engaged staff. We cannot break this figure down further for operational and Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for security reasons. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many representations Ministers in his Department made to Conflict Resolution: Females the government of Bahrain requesting that Anthony James be allowed to leave Bahrain. [28522] Nicola Blackwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what plans Alistair Burt: We have repeatedly made clear our the Government have for implementation of UN concerns on the lengthy application of a travel ban in Security Council Resolution 1325 on women, peace this case and the implications for the persons concerned. and security; and if he will make a statement. [27974] Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Jeremy Browne: The Government are fully committed Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will raise to reducing the impact of conflict on women and girls with the Crown Prince of Bahrain during his visit to and promoting their inclusion in resolving conflict. My the UK the issue of the treatment of Anthony James right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and and his colleagues. [28523] Commonwealth Affairs, the Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague) made a statement to the House on Alistair Burt: My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary 25 November 2010, Official Report, columns 49-50WS, raised the case of Mr James and his colleagues in his regarding our new National Action Plan on Women, meeting with the Crown Prince on 30 November. Peace and Security. Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for This plan clearly sets out how the Government will Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will issue implement UN Security Council Resolution 1325 through guidance on the risks of detention in Bahrain to UK a range of initiatives in our diplomatic, defence and nationals working in that country. [28524] development activities. The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my hon. Friend Alistair Burt: We encourage all British nationals travelling the Member for North West Norfolk (Mr Bellingham) overseas to consult Foreign and Commonwealth Office launched the plan at an event at the Foreign and travel advice. The Travel Advice for Bahrain states that: Commonwealth Office on 25 November, involving over “Visitors must have legal status in Bahrain when they depart. 100 representatives drawn from Parliament, civil society You may be prevented from departing Bahrain if you are subject groups, Government officials and foreign diplomats. to a travel ban, involved in legal proceedings, have unpaid debt, or Our key commitments are to make “Women, Peace are a child subject to a custody dispute.” and Security” an integral part of our overseas conflict Burma: Thailand policy; to implement specific action plans in priority countries, starting with Afghanistan, Nepal and Democratic Fiona O’Donnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Republic of Congo; and to strengthen the action taken Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he has by the international community. A full copy of the plan made representations to the Thai government to ensure is available at: that repatriations of Burmese citizens are monitored. www.fco.gov.uk/en/global-issues/conflict-prevention/women- [28514] peace-security/national-action-plan 1069W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1070W

The plan will be reviewed annually, incorporating Alistair Burt: The United Kingdom will be represented feedback from civil society focus groups. Annual progress on the Executive Board of UN Women for five out of will be reported to Parliament through the Associate the next six consecutive years, starting from 2011. As is Parliamentary Group on Women, Peace and Security. A the case with other UN Executive Boards, the United full evaluation of the plan will be carried out after three Kingdom will be represented by the UK Mission to the years. UN, supplemented as necessary by relevant Government Departments. EU Grants and Loans Western Sahara: Human Rights Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Mr Foster: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs which civil society and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions he organisations in the UK have received funding from has had with the United Nations Special Envoy for the EU funds in each of the last five years; how much each Western Sahara. [27923] received; and from which EU funding programme the funds were granted. [27547] Alistair Burt: My noble Friend the right hon. Lord Howell met Ambassador Ross, the UN Secretary-General’s Justine Greening: I have been asked to reply. Personal Envoy for Western Sahara, on 22 June and The information requested is not held centrally, and had a wide-ranging discussion on issues relating to to obtain it would incur disproportionate cost. Western Sahara. The Government fully support the UN process and the efforts of Ambassador Christopher Pope Benedict XVI Ross. David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for I have myself discussed the issue in the last few weeks Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how much was with both the Algerian and Moroccan Governments spent from the public purse in each cost category on during visits to the region. arrangements for the recent visit to the UK of Pope Mr Foster: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Benedict XVI. [28044] and Commonwealth Affairs what recent assessment he has made of the human rights situation in Western Mr Jeremy Browne: Full costs and details of Government Sahara. [27924] spending on the recent visit of Pope Benedict XVI to the UK are still being calculated. The Under-Secretary Alistair Burt: Our ambassador and officials at our of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my embassy in Rabat are continually engaged on the human hon. Friend the Member for North West Norfolk rights situation in Western Sahara and raise specific (Mr Bellingham) intends to make a statement as soon human rights cases with the Moroccan authorities when as they are finalised. appropriate. South America: Embassies The UK Government support the idea of independent verification of the human rights situation in Western Sandra Osborne: To ask the Secretary of State for Sahara. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs which three Western Sahara: Torture British diplomatic missions in South America have the largest (a) budget and (b) number of employees. Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for [27176] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent reports he has received of alleged torture of Saharawi Alistair Burt: The three British diplomatic missions civilians taken into custody following violence in El in South America with the largest budgets are, in order, Aauin. [28060] Brasilia, Sao Paulo and Bogota. In terms of employees, the largest missions are Brasilia, Bogota, Sao Paulo and Alistair Burt: We have received no formal reports of Buenos Aires. Sao Paulo and Buenos Aires have alleged torture after the recent violence in Western approximately the same number of staff. Sahara. However, we are aware of allegations made by a number of civil society organisations. UN Principles for Responsible Investment Our ambassador and officials at our embassy in Rabat have been monitoring the situation in Western Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Sahara closely since the reports of violence on 8 November. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he plans They remain in contact with the Moroccan authorities to take steps to promote the use of the UN Principles in Rabat and a wide range of interlocutors from civil for Responsible Investment. [28020] society. Mr Jeremy Browne: The Government are committed to the promotion of good corporate governance and HEALTH welcome initiatives that aim to assist companies adhere to these principles. Benzodiazepines UN Women Eric Ollerenshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) pursuant to the answer of 8 November 2010, Ms Harman: To ask the Secretary of State for Official Report, column 136W, on benzodiazepines, Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs who will represent by what means his Department determined that the the UK on the Executive Board of UN Women. 2008 licence cancellation by Wyeth was for commercial [28526] rather than safety reasons; for what reasons his 1071W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1072W

Department no longer holds the original clinical data; Under the Medicines and Healthcare products on what date it ceased to hold that data; where it sent Regulatory Agency’s record management policy all that data; and if he will make a statement; [27735] application files (files that are submitted by a manufacturer for the licensing of a product) and data for licences are (2) whether the original licence for Ativan was a held for 15 years. After this period, files are destroyed Licence of Right; which body issued that licence; and unless there is a legal, regulatory, or business need to by what authorisation procedures it issued that licence; keep them, or unless they are considered to be of lasting [27780] historic interest. In line with this policy the original (3) how many generic lorazepam licences have been licence applications for lorazepam, diazepam, nitrazepam issued since 1980; what the date of issue was of each and oxazepam products are no longer held. such licence; and whether the Medicines and Generic lorazepam licences granted since 1980 Healthcare products Regulatory Agency held any Product licence number Date of authorisation clinical trial data on the safety of lorazepam on respect of each such licence; [27797] PL 00530/0080 1 April 1981 PL 00530/0081 1 April 1981 (4) whether his Department holds the original PL 00142/0164 18 November 1992 licence applications for (a) diazepam, (b) oxazepam PL 00142/0165 18 November 1992 [27798] and (c) nitrazepam; PL 04569/0024 8 December 1982 (5) how many drugs other than lorazepam have been PL 04569/0025 8 December 1982 licensed under the terms of EU Directive 2001/23/EC PL 00225/0063 4 February 1985 without new clinical trials investigating safety. [27834] PL 00225/0075 18 October 1985 PL 04556/0019 8 January 1986 PL 04556/0020 8 January 1986 Paul Burstow: Benzodiazepines have been used for PL 04416/0016 11 January 1987 the treatment of anxiety and insomnia since the early PL 04416/0017 11 January 1987 1960s. When the Medicines Act 1968 came into force in PL 04416/0094 23 March 1987 1971 all medicines that were on the United Kingdom PL 04416/0095 23 March 1987 market at the time were automatically given a Product PL 00095/0126 6 March 1991 Licence of Right (PLR). The licence for lorazepam PL 00095/0127 6 March 1991 (brand name Ativan) was originally issued by the then PL 00401/0050 22 March 1991 Medicines Division of the Department of Health and PL 00401/0051 22 March 1991 Social Security in 1972. For products with a PLR, PL 00039/0182 11 July 1991 product information had been prepared by the manufacturers and the PLRs were subsequently reviewed PL 00152/0224 11 July 1991 by the Committee for the Review of Medicines (CRM), PL 00152/0225 11 July 1991 an independent scientific advisory body set up for this PL 00037/0180 5 September 1991 purpose. CRM advised that full product licences should PL 00037/0181 15 September 1991 be granted for lorazepam. PL 00039/0183 31 March 1992 PL 04077/0124 23 August 1993 In 2008 the product licences for all oral Ativan products PL 04077/0125 23 August 1993 were cancelled following a notification from the then marketing authorisation holder (Wyeth) stating that Cumberland Infirmary these products along with a number of other Wyeth products were no longer marketed in the UK. This John Stevenson: To ask the Secretary of State for notification was made under Article 23a of 2001/83/EC Health whether he made an estimate of the proportion (as amended) which requires the marketing authorisation of the total running costs for Cumberland Infirmary holder to notify the competent authority if the product (a) paid to the private finance initiative provider in ceases to be placed on the market either temporarily or each year from 2005-09 and (b) expected to be paid to permanently. that provider in (i) 2010 and (ii) 2011. [26476] Since 1980, a total of 26 generic licences have been granted for lorazepam containing products and the Mr Simon Burns: The information is not available in dates of authorisation of these product licences are the format requested. However, data for the proportion provided in the following table. No clinical trial data of total revenue expenditure by North Cumbria University were submitted in support of these licence applications. Hospitals NHS Trust in respect of its private finance Under Directive 2001/83/EC clinical trial data are not initiative (PFI) scheme, are set out in the following required for generic licences. Article 10.1 of the directive table. enables applications for generic medicinal products to Data are not held centrally for 2010-11 or 2011-12. refer to the safety and efficacy data of the reference North Cumbria University Hospitals NHS Trust—proportion of total product provided bioequivalence to the reference product revenue expenditure relating to PFI has been demonstrated. After a period of clinical use Percentage of total revenue (10 years in the UK) safety and efficacy will have been expenditure relating to PFI better established and repetitive tests on humans or animals are not justified without over-riding cause. 2005-06 8.5 Since 2003, approximately 5,200 product licences have 2006-07 8.4 been granted under Article 10.1 of Directive 2001/83/EC, 2007-08 8.1 encompassing around 400 drug substances. Prior to this 2008-09 8.1 date records are not held in a similar searchable form. 2009-101 7.7 1073W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1074W

1 2009-10 accounts were compiled under international finance reporting Neonatal Care standards under which PR costs in the audited summarisation schedules of trusts are split between capital repayments and revenue expenditure elements, which does not make a precise like for like comparison with Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for earlier years in this table possible. However, an estimate of the PFI Health which NHS trusts have delivered a two-year unitary payment for 2009-10 is held centrally by the Department as outcome assessment for neonatal care. [28025] well as the audited outturn revenue expenditure figure for the trust for this year and the percentage figure for this year is calculated using these two figures. Anne Milton: This information is not collected by the Notes: Department. The National Neonatal Audit Programme, 1. The percentages provided represent the net revenue expenditure in which is funded by the Healthcare Quality Improvement respect of PFI schemes as a proportion of total revenue expenditure. Partnership and run by the Royal College of Paediatrics 2. 2005-06 to 2008-09 figures compiled under United Kingdom generally and Child Health (RCPCH) Science and Research accepted accounting practice. Source: Department, will audit two-year outcomes. RCPCH Audited summarisation schedules of the North Cumbria University has published the preliminary findings in the National Hospitals NHS Trust for 2005-06 to 2009-10. Neonatal Audit Programme Annual Report 2009. Most neonatal units—95.5% (170 out of 178)—in England Incontinence participated in the audit in 2009 and a further four units will participate in 2010. Penny Mordaunt: To ask the Secretary of State for NHS Foundation Trusts Health if he will make provision in the delivery of continence services under his proposed reforms to the NHS for (a) the ability of continence patients to Liz Kendall: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (i) work and (ii) participate in sports and social if he will place in the Library a copy of each activities, (b) a reduction in levels of social isolation assessment by strategic health authorities on the ability of continence patients, (c) a reduction in levels of of NHS trusts to become foundation trusts; and what bullying of continence patients of school age, (d) increased estimate he has made of the number of trusts likely to dignity for continence patients, (e) increased confidence obtain foundation trust status. [28537] for continence patients in going out in public and (f) improved quality of life for continence patients. Anne Milton: The returns from the strategic health [28539] authorities are being considered by officials in the Department in discussion with the local national health Paul Burstow: ‘Healthy Lives, Healthy People: Our service and are therefore work in progress at this time. It strategy for public health in England’, published on is anticipated that by April 2011 the returns will have 30 November, sets out the Government’s long-term been validated and the agreed information will then be vision for the future of public health in England including placed in the Library. driving health and well-being improvement locally. NHS: Surveys Our strategy for public health includes the development of a new vision for school nurses reflecting their broad Liz Kendall: To ask the Secretary of State for Health public health role in the school community and recognising if he will place in the Library the reported findings of the major role they play in managing pupils’ well-being. each Ipsos MORI six-monthly survey on public The vision will engage with a range of issues including perceptions of the national health service funded by his bullying and continence. Department since the start of 2008. [28538] The White Paper ‘Equity and Excellence: Liberating the NHS’ set out our proposals to devolve power Paul Burstow: The reported findings of seven Ipsos and responsibility for commissioning services to local MORI surveys from March 2008 to March 2010 have consortiums of general practitioner practices. been placed in the Library. These will also be published on the Department’s website. Mental Illness: Prisoners Older People: Care Homes

Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Dr Thérèse Coffey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health pursuant to the answer of 4 October 2010, Health (1) what guidance he has issued to local Official Report, column 1324W on mental illness: authorities on improving the psychological well-being prisoners, when he plans to publish the cross- of older people in residential care; [27817] government mental health strategy. [28682] (2) what assessment his Department has made of the psychological well-being of older people in residential Paul Burstow: The new mental health strategy, which care. [27818] we plan to publish in the new year, will be based on clear outcomes and will follow a life-course approach. Paul Burstow: I refer my hon. Friend to the replies I It will aim to establish mental health more clearly as gave on 11 November 2010, Official Report, columns central to a number of initiatives across Government 465-66W. and in the mainstream of local health and social care services. It will aim to give mental health the same The Department has not issued such guidance to prominence as physical health issues such as cancer and local authorities. heart disease. It will also focus on the importance of As set out in the White Paper ‘Equity and Excellence increased productivity across the system, while improving Liberating the NHS’, we will be expanding the remit of quality of services. the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence 1075W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1076W

(NICE) to include social care. Over time, this will allow Article 4 of Protocol 19 to the Treaties on the Schengen NICE to develop quality standards and supporting acquis also provides that the UK may request to take guidance, covering a range of care pathways, covering part in some or all of the acquis. The UK participates in both health and social care services. some of the acquis. Article 5 of the Protocol provides Suicide that the UK is deemed to opt-in to measures building on parts of the acquis in which it participates unless it Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health notifies the Council that it does not wish to take part with reference to the NHS Atlas of Variation in into the measure—‘an opt-out’. Since 6 May 2010 the Healthcare, what steps his Department is taking to UK has participated in two measures building on parts encourage (a) strategic health authorities and of the Schengen acquis in which the UK participates: (b) primary care trusts to address the variation in The draft Regulation establishing an Agency for the operational mortality rates from suicide per 100,000 population. management of large-scale IT systems in the area of freedom, [28200] security and justice; and Paul Burstow: Strategic health authorities have previously An Arrangement between the EU and Iceland, Liechtenstein, been tasked with reducing the suicide rate in their own Norway and Switzerland on the Schengen acquis. areas and it is for them to work with primary care trusts In addition to this, the previous Government decided to achieve this. We plan to publish a new Suicide to participate in a Council Regulation on migration Prevention Strategy in the new year which will set out a from the Schengen Information System (SIS I) to the way forward, taking account of lessons learned over the second generation Schengen Information System (SIS II). eight years since the previous strategy was published. It This decision took effect on 8 May 2010. will also take account of the most up to date suicide data. Forensic Science Services Stakeholder Perception Audit HOME DEPARTMENT 2010: Finance EU Law Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for the David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department in which areas the UK has signalled Home Department what the cost to the public purse that it does not intend to apply its opt-out to a new EU was of the Forensic Science Services Stakeholder Perception Audit 2010. [28042] legislative proposal since 6 May 2010. [28212] James Brokenshire: Articles 1 and 2 of Protocol 21 to James Brokenshire: Market research activity by the the Treaties in respect of the Area of Freedom, Security Forensic Science Service is a matter for the Board and and Justice provide that the UK is not bound by measures the company. adopted pursuant to Title V of Part III of the Treaty on I am advised however, that the approximate cost to the Functioning of the European Union. However, in the company of the exercise and resultant analysis is in accordance with Article 3, the UK may notify the the region of £6,000. Council within three months of a proposal or initiative being presented to the Council that it wishes to take part: ‘an opt-in’. Since 6 May 2010, the UK has notified its wish to participate in the following six proposals: The Council Decision on the signature and provisional application INDEPENDENT PARLIAMENTARY of the EU-Korea Free Trade Agreement (Business Innovation STANDARDS AUTHORITY COMMITTEE and Skills); The EU-US agreement on the Terrorist Finance Tracking Programme (Treasury); Management: Pay The EU-Georgia readmission agreement; The draft Directive on combating the sexual abuse, sexual exploitation of children and child pornography (Ministry of Mr Winnick: To ask the hon. Member for Broxbourne, Justice); representing the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent The draft Directive on the European Investigation Order (Home Parliamentary Standards Authority, what the (a) names, Office); and (b) responsibilities and (c) annual salaries are of each The draft Directive on the right to Information in criminal member of the Independent Parliamentary Standards proceedings (Ministry of Justice). Authority’s senior management team. [25196] Since, 6 May 2010 the UK has decided not to participate in a further five such proposals: Mr Charles Walker [holding answer 19 November]: A Commission proposal for a Directive on the right to The information requested falls within the responsibility interpretation and translation in criminal, proceedings (Ministry of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority. of Justice); I have asked IPSA to reply. The draft Directive to combat human trafficking (Home Office); Letter from Andrew McDonald: The Council Decision on a proposal to amend the EU-Swiss As Interim Chief Executive of the Independent Parliamentary Agreement on the free movement of workers (Department for Standards Authority, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Work and Pensions); Question asking the names, responsibilities and annual salaries of The draft Directive on seasonal workers (Home Office); and the members of IPSA’s senior management team. The answer is The draft Directive on intra corporate transferees (Home Office). set out in the table below. 1077W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1078W

Name Job title Responsibilities Annual salary (£)

Andrew McDonald Chief Executive Officer Responsible for management and leadership of IPSA, 105,000-109,999 delivery of its business plan and the Board’s strategic objectives. Bob Evans Director of Finance and Responsible for the financial management of IPSA, 65,000-69,999 Corporate Services and for its corporate service functions, including human resources, finance, IT and data security, facilities, procurement and contract management. Anne Power Director of Responsible for the strategic planning and delivery of 75,000-79,999 Communications internal and external communications, and responsible for IPSA’s publication programme. John Sills Director of Policy Responsible for the management and strategic 85,000-89,999 direction of policy development. Scott Woolveridge Director of Operations Responsible for the management of IPSA’s core 80,000-84,999 business processes, including payroll, the validation and reimbursement of expenses, and support services.

INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Justine Greening: I have been asked to reply. The European Commission has not yet consulted on Departmental Manpower the review of the Markets in Financial Instruments Directive. A consultation document is expected to be Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for issued shortly. International Development how many staff in each division of his Department at each civil service Developing Countries: Agriculture payband (a) are assigned to work on agricultural issues and (b) have training in a discipline relevant to Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for agriculture. [278231] International Development how much money his Department has (a) allocated and (b) disbursed to Mr O’Brien: The Department for International climate change adaptation projects directed at marginal Development (DFID) supports numerous and diverse smallholder farmers in the developing world in each of programmes addressing food security or agricultural the last five years. [27816] development, involving many staff from a range of professional backgrounds. To determine the numbers of Mr O’Brien: Our central recording systems do not all staff involved and the extent of their agricultural capture this level of detail for project expenditure. Compiling related training would incur disproportionate cost. the requested information would incur disproportionate DFID has two senior civil service positions and a cost. group of professional livelihoods advisers (currently 57) The Department for International Development (DFID) who are required to have specific expertise and experience recognises that smallholder farmers are particularly in agricultural or rural development, food security, vulnerable to the impacts of climate change and we take agricultural adaptation to climate change and related this into account in the design and implementation of a livelihoods issues. They must have a minimum of five number of our development activities, including through years relevant experience and a higher degree in a our research programme and our adaptation programmes. relevant subject. The number of livelihoods staff employed The UK Government have committed to providing at each civil service pay band are provided in the following £1.5 billion in Fast Start finance over the period 2010-12 table. to help the developing world carry out the urgent work needed to adapt to climate change, adopt clean technology Pay range Number of and reduce emissions from deforestation. In 2010-11 Traditional civil (London livelihoods the UK provided approximately 41% of its Fast Start DFID grade service grade scale) advisers allocation for adaptation, a significant share of which SCS G5 £60,002- 2 has been designed to benefit smallholder farmers. The £117,750 Department is in the course of monitoring and evaluating A1 G6 £58,120- 22 the impact of these ongoing programmes. £68,221 A2 G7 £47,555- 34 Developing Countries: Food Supply £56,293 A2L SEO £30,868- 1 £34,534 Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development how many agriculture and food security projects overseas (a) he and Departmental Public Expenditure (b) Ministers in his Department have visited since June 2010. [27815] Mr McCann: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what assessment he has Mr O’Brien: In September the Secretary of State made of the implications for his Department’s visited the work of the Protection of Basic Services international development policy goals of the review of programme in Ethiopia, which is helping to train some the EU Markets in Financial Instruments Directive. 9 million farmers in new agricultural techniques. My [26404] right hon. Friend stayed with farmers in a district in the 1079W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1080W south of the country who had benefited from this violence against women overseas. Ministerial responsibility support and observed the new higher value crops that for taking forward the UK’s work overseas will continue had been introduced as a result. to rest with departmental Ministers. I have visited several such projects since June 2010. In The ministerial champion will encourage relevant Uganda I met with the Northern Ugandan Farmers Ministers to use all available levers and influence in Cooperative, a network of around 30 cooperatives across their domestic, EU and international engagements to the Acholi region, which brings together farmers (up to drive this issue to the top of the agenda. 3,000 in each location) to store and sell produce and to learn new methods of production. I have also visited the Timber Land Tenure Regularisation programme in Rwanda, which is registering landholders to provide them with Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for security of their ownership and encourage investments, International Development what assessment he has and the terraces building programme under the Social made of the compliance of his Department with the Protection Programme. While in Nigeria, I visited the UN Food and Agriculture Organisation’s criteria for PrOpCom agriculture programme, designed to enhance sourcing sustainable timber. [27847] commodity and services market development in the agriculture sector. I have also witnessed how private Mr O’Brien: The Department for International sector investment and innovative business models are Development’s (DFID’s) environmental procurement providing livelihood opportunities in Ghana, through policy is to procure wood products that have originated the Ghana Grains Partnership (GGP) Maize Farm. I from sustainable and legal sources, in accordance with also visited a tree nursery in Ghana and stayed with a UK Government standards, as issued by the Government’s family in their hut in Gupanerigu, Northern Ghana, Central Point of Expertise on Timber Procurement who were maize and groundnut farmers. In Sierra Leone (CPET). The Department checks that direct suppliers, I met farmers from Bo district where we discussed the or suppliers managing works on its behalf, who procure issues of land licensing, market access and labour skills, timber products, are compliant with UK policy. DFID especially for women. While in Tanzania I launched the overseas offices are advised to meet UK standards Coastal Rural Support Programme (CRSP) where I met where it is possible to do so. representatives from farmer groups that have already We have not made an assessment of the extent to benefited from the programme in the neighbouring which DFID procures products from forests that are region of Lindi. managed sustainably according to schemes that follow the UN Food and Agriculture Organisation’s criteria. International Violence against Women Champion DFID’s expenditure on direct procurement of timber and wood products is relatively low and confined mainly to building work, furniture and office supplies. Ms Harman: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what the remit and Tristan Da Cunha: Ports responsibilities of the International Violence Against Women Champion in that capacity will be; and what Mr McCann: To ask the Secretary of State for funds will be allocated by his Department for the International Development (1) for what reasons his performance of those responsibilities. [28519] Department decided to approve the allocation of funding to repair the harbour on Tristan Da Cunha; Mr Andrew Mitchell: The ministerial champion for [27782] tackling violence against women overseas will be responsible (2) what estimate he has made of the cost to the for providing policy coherence and coordination across public purse of repairs to Calshot harbour on Tristan Whitehall, ensuring that violence against women and Da Cunha; [27783] girls is fully integrated into our international work. The ministerial champion will represent the United Kingdom (3) what information his Department holds on the overseas, raising the profile of this issue bilaterally and (a) population of Tristan Da Cunha and (b) average multilaterally with European and international partners. per capita income per head of residents of Tristan Da Cunha; [27784] In addition, the ministerial champion will actively encourage all relevant Ministers to use the available (4) whether funding provided by his Department for levers and influence in their domestic, EU and international repairs to the harbour on Tristan Da Cunha will be engagements to drive efforts on eliminating violence classified as official development assistance; [27785] against girls and women to the top of the agenda. (5) how much funding his Department plans to Departments are currently finalising arrangements provide for repairs to the harbour on Tristan Da for support and funding for the role. Cunha. [27786] Mr Andrew Mitchell: The UK is obliged under the Ms Harman: To ask the Secretary of State for UN Charter to promote the well-being of the inhabitants International Development whether the International of the Overseas Territories. Without urgent repair work, Violence Against Women Champion will exercise the harbour on Tristan da Cunha, which was severely ministerial responsibilities in his Department. [28520] damaged in a storm earlier this year, could be rendered unusable during the South Atlantic winter. Without a Mr Andrew Mitchell: The Department for International harbour, tourism and fishing, the major sources of Development (DFID), along with the Foreign Office income on the island, would be severely reduced and the (FCO), the Ministry of Defence (MOD) and the island would require a significant extra subsidy from Government Equalities Office (GEO) all work on tackling British taxpayers every year. 1081W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1082W

To divulge estimated costs now would prejudice ongoing Departmental Consultants contractual negotiations. Final costs will be fully met by DFID and all funding will be classified as official Conor Burns: To ask the Chancellor of development assistance (ODA). the Exchequer how many business people he has The current population of Tristan da Cunha is 265. appointed to advise his Department who own or Average per capita income is £3,100. operate companies with annual turnovers of less than (a) £100 million, (b) £50 million, (c) £25 million and (d) £5 million. [23195]

JUSTICE Justine Greening: One business person has been appointed Judiciary: Pensions in category (c). Departmental Official Hospitality Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice whether the proposed use of the consumer price Graham Evans: To ask the Chancellor of the index for the indexation of pensions will apply to the Exchequer how much (a) his Department and (b) its judicial pensions schemes. [28247] agencies and non-departmental public bodies spent on hospitality in each year since 1997. [7435] Mr Kenneth Clarke: Yes. Justine Greening: The available information is set out in the following table. TREASURY £000 BBC HMT1 DMO1 APA2

John McDonnell: To ask the Chancellor of the 2002-03 208 1 n/a Exchequer what recent meetings Ministers in his 2003-04 116 1 n/a Department have had with the Director-General of the 2004-05 213 1 n/a BBC; and whether the matter of pensions was 2005-06 256 1 n/a discussed at those meetings. [24714] 2006-07 170 1 n/a 2007-08 125 1 n/a Justine Greening: Treasury Ministers and officials 2008-09 91 10 n/a have discussions with a wide variety of organisations in 2009-10 116 1 0 the public and private sectors as part of the process of 1 Data for HM Treasury and DMO are only available from 2002-03 policy development and delivery. As was the case with due to the introduction of a new accounting system in that year. 2 previous administrations, it is not the Government’s APA was formed in December 2009. practice to provide details of all such discussions. The Royal Mint Advisory Committee has not incurred any spending on hospitality. Climate Change Levy Economic Governance Task Force Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer pursuant to the answer of 12 July 2010, Chris Heaton-Harris: To ask the Chancellor of the Official Report, column 536W, on the climate change Exchequer what discussions his Department has had levy, whether the implementation of his proposals to with other EU member states on an EU agreement on reform the climate change levy will be compatible with minimum requirements for the budgetary frameworks the EU Emissions Trading Scheme. [28016] of Member States since the publication of the final report of the EU Task Force on Economic Justine Greening: The Government will shortly publish Governance; and whether he expects any such agreed a proposal to reform the climate change levy in order to requirements to be obligatory for the UK. [26374] provide greater support and certainty to the carbon price in UK power generation. Once the consultation Justine Greening: Following the final report of President has been published the Government would welcome van Rompuy’s taskforce, requirements for budgetary detailed discussion on any technical aspects of the frameworks are being discussed regularly within the proposal. EU. The Government fully support ongoing work to improve Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Chancellor of the economic governance across the EU. Robust fiscal Exchequer pursuant to the answer of 12 July 2010, frameworks underpinned by accurate, transparent statistics Official Report, column 536W, on the climate change and data are an important part of this and the Government levy, whether the implementation of his proposals to therefore support agreed EU standards for domestic reform the climate change levy will be revenue-neutral. frameworks. However, fiscal sovereignty must be protected [28017] and the Government therefore favour political agreement on these standards. Justine Greening: This is a matter for the Chancellor The Commission has proposed having a directive on to consider as part of the Budget process and once the budgetary frameworks. Such a directive would have its responses to the consultation have been explored in legal base in article 126(14) of the treaty on the functioning detail. of the European Union and would be agreed by Qualified The consultation will be published shortly. Majority Voting: according to the current Commission 1083W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1084W proposal member states would have three years to comply Mr Gauke [holding answer 22 November 2010]: The with its provisions. The UK has a high quality and Chancellor replied to the right hon. Member on 16 robust national framework, with independent fiscal and November. statistical authorities and a multiannual budgetary framework. This means that the UK would already Personal Income comply with many of the proposed minimum standards. Mr Meacher: To ask the Chancellor of the EU Grants and Loans: Republic of Ireland Exchequer what information his Department holds for benchmarking purposes on the gross average wage on a David Simpson: To ask the Chancellor of the purchasing power parity basis in each other OECD Exchequer what estimate he has made of the likely country. [24194] effect on the Exchequer revenue of the financial assistance package agreed for the Republic of Ireland. Justine Greening [holding answer 15 November]: Treasury [26676] draws on data from a wide range of international data sources including the Organisation for Economic Mr Hoban: Details of a financial package for the Co-operation and Development (OECD), International Republic of Ireland have not yet been finalised. It will Monetary Fund, Eurostat, European Commission, and be informed by a technical mission led by the IMF, International Labour Organisation. Gross average wage European Commission and European Central Bank. public statistics can be found on the OECD’s statistics website at: Fossil Fuels: Subsidies http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx

Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Chancellor of the Mr Meacher: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer pursuant to the answer of 24 November Exchequer what information his Department holds 2010, Official Report, column 363W,on energy: subsidies, for benchmarking purposes on the marginal rate at if he will take steps through bilateral contacts to encourage average earnings in (a) the United States, (b) France, his G20 counterparts to implement national commitments (c) Germany, (d) Italy, (e) Spain, (f) the to reduce fossil fuel subsidies. [28461] Netherlands, (g) Austria, (h) Belgium, (i) Sweden and (j) Norway. [24196] Justine Greening: The United Kingdom supports the G20 commitment to phase out and rationalise over the Justine Greening [holding answer 15 November 2010]: medium term inefficient fossil fuel subsidies while providing Treasury draws on data from a wide range of international targeted support for the poorest, and will continue to data sources including the Organisation for Economic encourage its implementation as part of appropriate Co-operation and Development (OECD), International bilateral and multilateral engagement. At the G20 summit Monetary Fund, Eurostat, European Commission, and in Seoul on 11-12 November, G20 leaders directed their International Labour Organisation. Marginal rate at Finance and Energy Ministers to report back on the average earnings data for the countries listed can be progress made in implementing country-specific strategies found on the OECD’s public statistics website at: at the 2011 summit in France. http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx

Impact Assessments State Retirement Pensions: Uprating

Jo Swinson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Chancellor of the what recent representations he has received on equality Exchequer whether he has (a) sought and (b) received impact assessments. [28591] advice from the Office for National Statistics on the proposed use of the consumer price index for the Justine Greening: Treasury Ministers and officials indexation of pensions. [28248] received representations from a wide variety of organisations and individuals regarding equality impact assessments Steve Webb: I have been asked to reply. in relation to both the June 2010 Emergency Budget and the spending review. It is not the Government’s The Department made use of a range of information practice to provide details of all such representations. provided by the Office for National Statistics regarding price inflation indices. The Treasury takes its statutory equality duties very seriously. I work closely with my colleagues, especially the Home Secretary and Minister for Women and Written Questions: Government Responses Equalities, to ensure that HM Treasury complies with its statutory obligations. Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he plans to answer question 25703 on Members: Correspondence the private finance initiative tabled on 17 November 2010 for ordinary written answer. [28646] Alan Johnson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he expects to respond to the letter Justine Greening: The Chief Secretary to the Treasury from the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West replied to the hon. Member on 30 November, Official and Hessle of 29 October 2010 on child benefit. [25811] Report, column 681W. 1085W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1086W

WALES Funding provided for ports in Wales is ultimately for the Welsh Assembly Government to determine, but I Wind Power: Wales am sure it would complement their plans for Anglesey to become an Energy Island which the hon. Gentleman Albert Owen: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales has advocated for some time. (1) what discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change on the location of manufacturing facilities at port sites in Wales to support offshore wind power; and if she will make a WOMEN AND EQUALITIES statement; [27950] (2) what discussions she has had with the Welsh Black Asian and Minority Ethnic Women Councillors Assembly Government on (a) facilities at port sites in Taskforce: Expenditure Wales and (b) technological innovation to support development of offshore wind power; and if she will Priti Patel: To ask the Minister for Women and make a statement. [27951] Equalities pursuant to the answer of 22 November 2010, Official Report, columns 81-2W,on ethnic minorities, Mr David Jones: The Secretary of State for Wales, my which (a) Task Force members and (b) strategic partners right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham attended each event; and what costs were incurred for (Mrs Gillan) has regular discussions with Cabinet colleagues each in respect of each event. [27472] and with Welsh Assembly Government Ministers on Energy related issues including the potential benefits Lynne Featherstone: Expenses incurred by members that offshore wind power offers to Wales. of the Black, Asian and Minority Ethnic Women On 25 October the Department for Energy and Climate Councillors’ Taskforce who attended and/or facilitated Change announced investment of £60 million to establish taskforce events were reimbursed by the Government a world-class ports infrastructure in England. I very Equalities Office. Not all taskforce members who led or much welcome the fact that Wales received a Barnett attended an event incurred or claimed expenses. Consequential in the spending review in the normal way The following table gives a breakdown of taskforce as a result of this additional coalition Government members who incurred and claimed expenses for facilitating investment. and/or attending an event or series of taskforce events:

Taskforce member Event Expenses Amount claimed (£)

Dr Anwara Ali TUC Facilitator fee 163 Carol Francis Gloucester and South London Total for travel and facilitator fees 260.40 for two events Humaira Khan Chilterns with Windsor and Travel and loss of earning 145.40 Maidenhead Lorna Campbell Gloucester Travel and facilitator fees 217 Lurline Champagnie OBE Tower Hamlets, Islington, TUC, Total for travels accommodation costs 1,671.19 Newcastle, Leicester, Glasgow, and facilitators fees for nine events Liverpool, Luton, Bradford Maya de Souza Camden Facilitator 163 Baroness Meral Ece OBE Chiltern and Camden Total for travel/ facilitators fees for 336 two events Mia Jones Liverpool Travel 50.25 Mimi Harker Harrow, South London, Chiltern/ Total for travel and facilitator fees 587 Windsor and Maidenhead for three events Baroness Uddin TUC, Glasgow, Gloucester, Total for travel costs for five events. 1417.61 Islington South London Salma Yaqoob Swansea Facilitator fee 163 Thea Khamis Newcastle Travel 83.29 Francine Fernandes (strategic partner) Birmingham Facilitator fee 163 1 In addition, the GEO paid chair fees of £9,591.50 to Baroness Uddin for the period April 2008 to March 2009 at a daily rate of £500.

Priti Patel: To ask the Minister for Women and (BAME) Women Councillors Taskforce Report. I have Equalities pursuant to the answer of 22 November placed a copy of the full report in the Library and it is 2010, Official Report, columns 81-2W, on ethnic also available at: minorities, how many people attended each of the 16 events; and how many people of each (a) sex, (b) age http://www.equalities.gov.uk/pdf/ group and (c) ethnicity attended each such event. Task%20Force%20Report%20Oct%202009.pdf [27668] Statistics broken down by gender were not collected. Given that the events were targeted at ethnic minority Lynne Featherstone: Information on the number of women the overwhelming majority of delegates were people who attended each of the 16 taskforce events female. Information on the ethnic and age break down was published in the Black, Asian and Minority Ethnic of delegates for each of the 16 events is as follows: 1087W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1088W

Ethnicity Percentage ethnicity Age Percentage age

Tower Hamlets: 23 July Black or Black British 48 18-24 4 2008 White 20 25-34 12 Mixed 16 35-44 40 Asian or British Asian 16 45-64 40 65+ 4

Birmingham: 17 October Asian or British Asian 57 18-24 n/a 2008 Black or Black British 29 25-34 n/a Mixed 4 35-44 n/a White 2 45-64 n/a Other 8 65+ n/a

Harrow: 21 November Black 70 18-24 0 2008 Asian or British Asian 14 25-34 24 White 8 35-44 24 Other 5 45-64 49 Mixed 3 65+ 3

Swansea: 12 December Black 51 18-24 3 2008 White 23 25-34 15 Asian 11 35-44 58 Mixed 9 45-64 21 Other 6 65+ 3

Islington: 9 January 2009 Black 54 18-24 2 Asian 23 25-34 27 White 14 35-44 25 Mixed 5 45-64 44 Other 4 65+ 2

TUC: 3 February 2009 Black 79 18-24 0 Asian 8 25-34 9 White 4 35-44 22 Mixed 4 45-64 61 Other 4 65+ 9

Glasgow: 13 February Asian 62 18-24 6 2009 Black 19 25-34 33 White 14 35-44 33 Other 5 45-64 28 65+ 0

Gloucester: 19 February Black 59 18-24 4 2009 Asian 15 25-34 8 Mixed 7 35-44 35 White 7 45-64 54 Did not wish to disclose 4 65+ 0

Newcastle: 20 March Asian 48 18-24 0 2009 1089W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1090W

Ethnicity Percentage ethnicity Age Percentage age

White 24 25-34 18 Black 16 35-44 18 Other 12 45-64 64 65+ 0

Leicester: 17 April 2009 Asian 68 18-24 10 Black 20 25-34 5 Mixed 2 35-44 29 Other 7 45-64 55 White British 1.3 65+ 2

Camden: 24 April 2009 Black 59 18-24 5 Asian 23 25-34 15 Mixed 9 35-44 40 Other 9 45-64 40 65+ 0

South London: 21 May Black 78 18-24 4 2009 Asian 7 25-34 24 Mixed 5 35-44 22 White 4 45-64 50 Other 5 65+ 0

Liverpool: 29 May 2009 Black 33 18-24 3 White 30 25-34 37 Asian 20 35-44 17 Mixed 17 45-64 43 65+ 0

Chilterns, Windsor and Asian 48 18-24 10 Maidenhead: 26 June 2009 Black 33 25-34 24 Mixed 5 35-44 33 White 10 45-64 33 Other 5 65+ 0

Luton: 17 July 2009 Black 60 18-24 4 Asian 32 25-34 18 White 4 35-44 42 Mixed 2 45-64 36 Other 2 65+ 0

Bradford: 22 July 2009 Asian 61 18-24 8 Mixed 18 25-34 27 Black 9 35-44 27 White 9 45-64 35 Other 3 65+ 4

Commission on the Status of Women Status of Women in New York in February to March 2010; and how many civil servants attended the event. Priti Patel: To ask the Minister for Women and [22062] Equalities how much the Government Equalities Office spent on attendance at the UN Commission on the 1091W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1092W

Lynne Featherstone: The Government Equalities Office Lynne Featherstone: Since its creation on 12 October (GEO) spent £17,726 on attendance at the UN Commission 2007, the Government Equalities Office (GEO) has on the Status of Women (CSW) in February to March spent the following amounts on the provision of services 2010. This figure represents the costs for the delegation for press cuttings: which accompanied the former Minister for Women and Equalities, who represented the United Kingdom Financial year Expenditure (£)

(UK) at the CSW. In addition to attending CSW the 1 former Minister held a series of bilateral meetings with 2007-08 1,763 United Nations representatives and country delegations 2008-09 17,162 to promote the early establishment of the United Nations 2009-10 16,284 2 Body on Gender Equality and the Empowerment of 2010-11 2,004 Women (‘UN Women’). 1 From 12 October 2007 GEO’s press service was provided by Department for Work and Pensions. The UK delegation for this two-week event is broken 2 Current expenditure as at 30 September 2010. down as follows: The former Minister for Women and Equalities. Equality: Public Bodies One senior civil servant from the Government Equalities Office (GEO) for the first week only. Mr Bain: To ask the Minister for Women and One Private Secretary for part of the first week to support the Equalities whether she has made an assessment of the Minister. effects on economic growth and employment levels in One senior policy adviser from the GEO for the second week each of the next four financial years of her decision not only. to implement section 1 of the Equality Act 2010. One senior policy advisor from the Foreign and Commonwealth [25926] Office (FCO) official for the whole duration of the event. FCO funded his attendance. Lynne Featherstone: The decision not to implement Additionally, one special adviser for part of the first section 1 of the Equality Act 2010 will lift a bureaucratic week was paid by GEO and another funded by Cabinet burden from a small number of public authorities. The Office. wider assessment referred to was not considered necessary—there is no reason why the duty would have had any effect on growth or employment levels. Departmental Press: Subscriptions Grants Anas Sarwar: To ask the Minister for Women and Mr Jenkin: To ask the Minister for Women and Equalities what the monetary value was of grants Equalities how much the Government Equalities Office awarded by the Government Equalities Office in spent on press cuttings services in each of the last 12 2009-10; and how much she expects to award in grants months. [26410] in (a) 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12. [27864] Lynne Featherstone [holding answer 1 December 2010]: Lynne Featherstone: During the period 1 October I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply given on 2009 to 30 September 2010 the Government Equalities 19 November 2010, Official Report, columns 989-90W. Office (GEO) has spent £8,583 on the provision of services for press cuttings. The breakdown of the expenditure for each month is as follows: WORK AND PENSIONS

Invoice date Expenditure (£) Housing Benefit 2009 Teresa Pearce: To ask the Secretary of State for Work October 1,232 and Pensions when he plans to (a) introduce a cap on November 993 housing benefit and (b) reduce housing benefit rates December 837 from average local rents to the value of the lowest third 2010 of rents. [28517] January 1,118 Steve Webb: The measures to apply a cap on local February 1,272 housing allowance rates and to set rates at the 30th March 1,127 percentile of rents in the local area will come into force April 826 for new claims in April 2011. Existing customers will be May 656 protected against these changes for nine months following June 128 the date their claim is reviewed by the local authority, July 130 providing there is no relevant change in their circumstances. August 130 Housing Benefit: Unemployed People September 134 Mr Ward: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what distinction will be made between Robert Halfon: To ask the Minister for Women and jobseeker’s allowance (JSA) claimants who are unwilling Equalities how much the Government Equalities Office tofindworkandthoseunabletodosounderhisDepartment’s spent on press cuttings services in each year since its proposals to withdraw housing benefit from those with creation. [28161] JSA claims of over 12 months duration. [28589] 1093W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1094W

Chris Grayling: There are no plans to withdraw housing council tax benefit is 85%. This 85% is applied to net benefit from jobseekers as a sanction for not taking earnings, so the overall marginal deduction rate faced employment or actively seeking work. The measure by the individual would depend on what rate of tax they announced in the June Budget means that a person’s pay and any tax credit tapers they may be subject to. housing benefit entitlement will be reduced by 10% The maximum marginal deduction rate for an individual after 12 months entitlement to both jobseeker’s allowance in receipt of housing benefit/council tax benefit, tax and housing benefit. credits and subject to tax and national insurance is 96%. Marginal Deductions State Retirement Pensions: Uprating

Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions whether his Department’s for Work and Pensions what account he took of calculations of the maximum marginal deduction rate the housing costs of pensioners when developing his under universal credit take account of council tax proposals for the indexation of pensions by the benefit payments. [26254] consumer price index. [28249]

Steve Webb: The maximum marginal deduction rate Steve Webb: The housing cost component of price presented in the White Paper is calculated using the inflation indices was one feature considered when making assumption that help with council tax for low-income the decision to use the consumer prices index (CPI) for households is included within the universal credit and the indexation of pensions. The retail prices index (RPI) subject to the single overall taper of 65%. includes mortgage interest payments, which caused it to The Government’s recent announcement that they fall in 2009, leading to some elements of the state would give local authorities more say on the administration pension—principally additional pensions (i.e. SERPS of council tax benefit means that the Department will and S2P)—being frozen. work closely with local government and the devolved Only 7% of pensioners have a mortgage1. The CPI Administrations to develop the details of the proposal excludes mortgage interest, which is not a relevant and to ensure that this reform does not undermine the housing cost for the majority of pensioners. We positive impact of universal credit on work incentives. acknowledge that many pensioners face housing costs that are excluded from the CPI, for example council tax, Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State but on balance take the view that overall the CPI better for Work and Pensions what effect the receipt of reflects the living costs of pensioners. council tax benefit payments has on an individual’s 1 Households Below Average Income 2008-09 marginal deduction rate. [26255] Written Questions: Government Responses Steve Webb: Marginal deduction rates measure the amount of each additional pound of gross earnings Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Secretary of State for that is lost through tax, national insurance and withdrawn Work and Pensions when he plans to answer question benefits or tax credits. (a) 24112 and (b) 24113 on asbestos, tabled on Council tax benefit has a taper rate of 20% and 10 November for ordinary written answer. [28588] housing benefit has a taper rate of 65% which is applied to excess income above the individual’s applicable amount. Steve Webb: The hon. Member’s questions were answered The housing benefit and council tax benefit taper on 1 December 2010, Official Report, columns 839-40W rates are additive, so the marginal deduction rate faced and 1 December 2010, Official Report, columns 879-80W, by a claimant in receipt of both housing benefit and respectively. WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Friday 3 December 2010

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 93WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 96WS Competitiveness Council...... 93WS Forced Marriage and Learning Disabilities Yorkshire Forward ...... 93WS (Practice Guidelines)...... 96WS

COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 95WS TREASURY ...... 91WS Council Tax ...... 95WS ECOFIN...... 91WS

DEFENCE...... 95WS WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 96WS Operational Logistics Information Capability Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer (Improvements)...... 95WS Affairs Council (Agenda)...... 96WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Friday 3 December 2010

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 1047W EDUCATION—continued Animal Experiments ...... 1047W Apprentices...... 1061W Apprentices...... 1047W Discretionary Learner Support Fund...... 1062W Enterprise Finance Guarantee Scheme ...... 1048W Free Schools...... 1062W Higher Education: Bristol ...... 1048W Pupils: Disadvantaged...... 1062W Higher Education: Finance ...... 1049W School Food Trust...... 1062W Innovation: EU Action ...... 1049W School Sport Partnerships: Finance ...... 1063W Local Enterprise Partnerships...... 1050W Schools: Greater London...... 1064W Local Enterprise Partnerships: Nottinghamshire ... 1050W Schools: Transport ...... 1064W Manufacturing Advisory Service...... 1050W Youth Sports Trust: Finance ...... 1064W Manufacturing Advisory Service: Yorkshire and the Humber...... 1050W Natural Environment Research Council...... 1051W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 1065W Regional Growth Fund ...... 1052W Climate Change: Developing Countries ...... 1065W Social Enterprises and Community Interest Departmental Sponsorship ...... 1065W Companies...... 1053W Service Provision...... 1066W Students: Finance ...... 1053W Timber ...... 1066W UK Trade and Investment...... 1053W Wind Power: Construction...... 1067W

CABINET OFFICE...... 1054W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 1067W Government Departments: Procurement ...... 1054W Bahrain: Detainees...... 1067W Government Departments: Travel ...... 1054W Burma: Thailand...... 1067W Timber ...... 1054W Colombia: Embassies...... 1068W Conflict Resolution: Females ...... 1068W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 1055W EU Grants and Loans...... 1069W Audit Commission: Termination of Employment .. 1055W Pope Benedict XVI...... 1069W Departmental Conferences...... 1055W South America: Embassies...... 1069W Departmental Food...... 1056W UN Principles for Responsible Investment...... 1069W Fire Services...... 1056W UN Women...... 1069W Fire Services: Pensions ...... 1056W Western Sahara: Human Rights...... 1070W Fire Services: Termination of Employment...... 1056W Western Sahara: Torture ...... 1070W Flood Control: Finance ...... 1057W Floods: Upton-upon-Severn ...... 1057W Football: South Africa ...... 1057W HEALTH...... 1070W Local Government Finance ...... 1058W Benzodiazepines...... 1070W Local Government Finance: North East...... 1058W Cumberland Infirmary...... 1072W Incontinence ...... 1073W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 1058W Mental Illness: Prisoners...... 1073W Departmental Contracts ...... 1058W Neonatal Care...... 1074W Internet ...... 1058W NHS Foundation Trusts...... 1074W Olympic Games 2012: Costs ...... 1059W NHS: Surveys ...... 1074W Older People: Care Homes...... 1074W DEFENCE...... 1060W Suicide ...... 1075W Public Expenditure...... 1060W Technical Support 3 Contracting Arrangement ..... 1060W Trident Submarines...... 1061W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 1075W EU Law...... 1075W EDUCATION...... 1061W Forensic Science Services Stakeholder Perception Advertising: Children...... 1061W Audit 2010: Finance...... 1076W Col. No. Col. No. INDEPENDENT PARLIAMENTARY TREASURY—continued STANDARDS AUTHORITY COMMITTEE ...... 1076W Impact Assessments ...... 1083W Management: Pay ...... 1076W Members: Correspondence ...... 1083W Personal Income ...... 1084W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 1077W State Retirement Pensions: Uprating...... 1084W Departmental Manpower...... 1077W Written Questions: Government Responses ...... 1084W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 1077W Developing Countries: Agriculture ...... 1078W WALES...... 1085W Developing Countries: Food Supply ...... 1078W Wind Power: Wales ...... 1085W International Violence against Women Champion . 1079W Timber ...... 1080W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 1086W Tristan Da Cunha: Ports ...... 1080W Black Asian and Minority Ethnic Women Councillors Taskforce: Expenditure...... 1086W JUSTICE...... 1081W Commission on the Status of Women ...... 1089W Judiciary: Pensions...... 1081W Departmental Press: Subscriptions ...... 1091W Equality: Public Bodies...... 1092W TREASURY ...... 1081W Grants...... 1092W BBC ...... 1081W Climate Change Levy...... 1081W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 1092W Departmental Consultants...... 1082W Housing Benefit ...... 1092W Departmental Official Hospitality...... 1082W Housing Benefit: Unemployed People...... 1092W Economic Governance Task Force...... 1082W Marginal Deductions ...... 1093W EU Grants and Loans: Republic of Ireland ...... 1083W State Retirement Pensions: Uprating...... 1094W Fossil Fuels: Subsidies...... 1083W Written Questions: Government Responses ...... 1094W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

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CONTENTS

Friday 3 December 2010

Daylight Saving [Col. 1083] Motion for Second Reading—(Rebecca Harris)—on a Division, agreed to

Gangmasters Licensing (Extension to Construction Industry) [Col. 1157] Motion for Second Reading—(David Hamilton)

Turks and Caicos Islands [Col. 1164] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 91WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 1047W] [see index inside back page]