REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF TYNWALD COURT

Douglas, Tuesday, February 20, 1973 at 10.30 8.111.

Present: The Governor (Sir Peter Stallard, to announce that the Royal Assent was given K.C.M.G., C.V.O., M.B.E.), In the Council: to the Value Added Tax and Other Taxes The Lord Bishop (the Rt. Rev. George Eric Act 1973 on the 16th February this year. Gordon, M.A.), Deemster G. E. Moore, the Attorney-General (Mr. A. C. Luft), Messrs. J. B. Bolton, 0.B.E., T. F. Corkhill, E. N. Crow; R. E. S. Kerruish, W. E. Quayle, BILL FOR SIGNATURE H. H. Radcliffe, with Mr. P. J. Hulme, Clerk of the Council. In the Keys: The Speaker The Governor: There is one Bill for (Mr. H. C. Kerruish, 0. B. E.), Messrs. signature, the Legal Aid Bill. If the Court R. J. G. Anderson, H. D. C. MacLeod, will agree we will continue with our business G. M. Kermeen. J. C. Clucas, P. Radcliffe, during signature. Is that agreed? Miss J. C. C. Thornton-Duesbery, Messrs. E. Ranson, P. A. Spittall, A. H. Simcocks, It was agreed. M.B.E., G. T. Crellin, T. C. Faragher, Mrs. E. C. Quayle, Messrs. W. A. Moore, 3. J. Bell, E. C. Irving, Miss K. E. Cowin, Messrs. G. V. H. Kneale, G. A. Devereau, R. PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COURT. MacDonald, P. G. Hislop; Sir Henry Sugden, K.B.E., C.B., D.S.O., with Mr. T. E. The Governor: I call upon the Clerk to Kermeen, Clerk of Tynwald. lay papers.

The Clerk: I lay before the Court:—

Local Government (Fire Services) Acts APOLOGIES FOR ABSENCE. 1950 and 1954— Fire Services Rate Order 1973. The Governor: I have apologies for absence from Mr. Nivison. Payment of Members' Expenses — Pay- ment of Members' Expenses Act 1962 Order 1973.

ANNOUNCEMENT OF ROYAL ASSENT. Customs (Isle of Man) Act 1958 - Customs (Isle of Man) (No. 1) Order 1973. The Governor: In accordance with the terms of Section 2 of the Acts of Tynwald Burials Acts 1881 to 1965 — Rushen (Emergency Promulgation) Act 1916, I have Parish. Burial Ground Rate Order 1973.

Apologies for Absence. — Announcement of Royal Assent. —Bills for Signature. —Papers Laid before the Court. T354 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

Local Government Acts 1916 to 1970 - 1973 to the following Petition — (1) Petition German Refuse Collection District (Extension of the Onchan Village Commissioners for No. I) Order 1973. Lonan Refuse Disposal authority to borrow a sum not exceeding District (Extension No. 2) Order 1973. £1,200, repayable within 10 years, for the purpose of purchasing a new Leyland "154" Water (Supply) Acts 1929 to 1956 — Isle Tractor (25 h.p.) with attachments. Approval of Man Water Order No. 8. dated 19th January 1973 to the following Petition — (2) Petition of the Marashen Superannuation — Superannuation Order Crescent Housing Committee for authority 1973. to borrow a sum not exceeding £6,500, repayable within 30 years, for the purpose Purchase Tax — Purchase Tax (Isle of of the provision of baths and toilets in Man) (No. 3) Order 1973. bedsitter accommodation for elderly people at Marashen Crescent, Port Erin. Wild Birds Protection Acts 1932 to 1955 - Annual list of licences granted by the Lieutenant Governor in terms of Section 9 of the Wild Birds Protection Act 1932 — Roy Cripps of "Iona", Ramsey Road, Laxey. Gordon Douglas Craine of St. Peter's School, CONTRIBUTION TO ICELANDIC York. Warden or Assistant Warden of the VOLCANIC RELIEF — QUESTION BY Calf of Man or bona fide naturalist staying THE SPEAKER. at the Observatory. The Governor: Questions. Question Annual Reports — Report of the Isle of number 1. The hon. Mr. Speaker. Man Board of Agriculture and Fisheries for the year ended 31st March 1971. Report The Speaker: Your Excellency, I beg to of the Agricultural Organiser for the year ask : Whereas aid from many countries ended 31st March 1971. Report of the including the United Kingdom is being Government Veterinary Officer for the year afforded to the inhabitants of Westman ended 31st March 1971. Report of the Island, Iceland, who, following the recent Freshwater Fisheries Inspector for the year volcanic eruption, had to be evacuated from ended 31st March 1971. Report of the their homes. Will Your Excellency refer Agricultural Wages Board for the year to previous occasions when financial help ended 31st March 1971. Report of the was given by the Isle of Man Government Curraghs Wildlife Park for the year ended to the victims of natural disasters such as 31st March 1971. Report on the Agricultural the British Honduras Hurricane of 1961 and, Returns as at 4th June 1971. Report on in the light of the historical link between the Manx Herring Fishery for 1971. Nine- Tynwald and the Parliament of Iceland, teenth Annual Report of the work of the consult with the Finance Board with a view Isle of Man Board of Education in the to bringing before Tynwald a motion exercise of their functions under the Children authorising a contribution of an appropriate and Young Persons Acts 1966 to 1971 for sum from the General Revenue of this the year ended 31st March 1972. Island for the relief and assistance of these refugees? Local Government Board's Approval to Petitions — Approval dated 5th January The Governor: Yes. (Laughter.)

Contribution to Icelandic Volciknic Relief —Question by the Speaker. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973 T355

INCOME TAX SUMMONSES - hon. member for West Douglas, Mr. Kneale. QUESTION BY MR. HISLOP. Mr. Kneale: Your Excellency I beg to ask : The Governor: Question number 2. The (1) In each year since 1966 how many hon. member for Ramsey, Mr. HisIop. incidents have occured at the Palace Hotel and Casino and the Palace Lido which have Mr. Hislop: Your Excellency, I beg to involved the taking of police action? (2) In ask : (1) How many summonses for recovery' the same period, how many cases have come of arrears of Income Tax were taken out before the Courts where offences have been during the year ended 31st December 1972? committed on each of these premises? (3) (2) How many of these summonses were with- What liaison exists between the Isle of Man drawn before the sitting of the relevant Court Constabulary, the Palace Hotel management because the amount due thereon had been and the casino and Kursaal concessionaires paid or arrangements made for payment? over the preservation of law and order on (3) What was the amount of tax sought to the premises and in the vicinity? (4) What be recovered by the summonses withdrawn? proportion of offences of a criminal charac- (4) How much of the above sum was actually ter may in each of the years 1966 to 1971 be recovered? (5) In how many cases was it directly attributable to gambling losses or impossible for the Coroner to serve the other connections with the casino and summons because the defendant was dead Kursaal? (5) How many motoring offences, or had removed from the Island, or the particularly those relating to intoxicating address was unknown, or other similar cause? liquor, have during these years been com- (6) What was the total amount of tax sought mitted by drivers en route from the casino to be recovered in respect of the summonses or Kursaal? not capable of being served? The Governor: Part (1) — records of The Governor: I shall ask the Chairman incidents between 1966 and 1970 are not of the Finance Board to reply. sufficiently detailed to provide an accurate answer. Since 1970 when more detailed Mr. Bolton: Your Excellency, the answer records concerning the Palace Lido and to part (1) is 1,108. The answer to part (2) Casino were kept, police action was required — 625 or 56 per cent. Part (3) — £55,520. on a total of 80 occasions, and in addition Part (4) £44,012. Part (5) — 213 and part (6) a total of 51 thefts were reported in the two I have to say that the figure is not readily premises. Part (2) in 1970, 12 offences were available, but is estimated to be in the committed at the Palace Lido or Casino neighbourhood of £15,000. resulting in court prosecutions. In 1971 there were 18 such prosecutions and in 1972, 23. In Mr. Hislop: May I, Your Excellency, addition, during 1972, four offences were thank the Chairman of the Finance Board committed at the Hawaiian Bar. Part (3) there for his reply. is good liaison between members of the Force and the security staff and management at both the Casino and the Palace Lido. The staff are always helpful in any enquiries the INCIDENTS AT PALACE HOTEL, police have to make at the premises. Part CASINO AND LIDO — QUESTION BY (4) there are 2 recorded instances of criminal MR. 'NEALE. offences being committed as a result of a The Governor: Question number 3. The gambling toss at the Casino. Occasionally

Income Tax Summonses — Question by Mr. Hislop. — Incidents at Palace Hotel, Casino and Lido —Question by Mr. Kneale. T356 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

criminals proffer gambling losses as the The Governor: Yes. excuse but further enquiries usually reveal that they are attempting to offer an untrue Mrs. Quayle: Your Excellency, may I ask excuse. Part (5) since 1966, there have been a supplementary? Did any of the incidents over 7,000 accidents and many thousands involve the taking of soft or hard drugs? of motoring offences. It is not possible to state if the Palace Lido or Casino were on The Governor: Not to my knowledge. the route or were the destination or departure point of the drivers concerned. The route they took or places visited by them is not recorded. PURCHASE OF NUNNERY—QUESTION BY MR. FARAGHER. Mr. Moore: May 1 ask a supplementary question on part (1). During the period The Governor: Question number 4. The which has now been mentioned, that is from hon. member for Rushen, Mr. Faragher. the 1970 period what proportion of reported incidents were as a result of undesirable Mr. Faragher: Your Excellency, I beg to persons being denied admittance to, the ask : (I) What were the dates on which. the premises mentioned because the managerial Nunnery Mansion House and surrounding staff considered that these people were not domain was conveyed — (a) by the Goldie- suitable persons to be allowed in? Taubman Estate; (b) to Duart Ltd., (c) to the Isle of Man Government? (2) Who The Governor: I am afraid I could not were the other parties to the transactions give you an accurate answer, but I know were the other parties to the transaction that at least one person was turned away and (1)(a) and (1)(b)? (3) What were the respec- caused an affray because the present hon. tive considerations for these transactions? member for North Douglas suffered as a (4) Who is the owner or proposed owner of result I seem to remember. that part of the Nunnery Estate lying to the North East of the Douglas River? Mr. Moore: I know quite a number. The (5) Will Your Excellency lay before Tyn- reason I asked the question is that the wald a plan clearly defining the boundaries Police should know how many times they of the land which is being acquired by were called to the Casino and the Lido to Government and showing such other data turn people away because the management as is relevant? (6) Who is responsible for were doing their job. the maintenance and upkeep of the property, bearing in mind that a vacant house can The Governor: I could find the answer rapidly become derelict, and what steps for you but I can not give it off hand. are being taken to retain the essential staff to take care of the estate? (7) When Mr. Bell: I would like to ask a supple- will Your Excellency be bringing before mentary question sir, on the answer to part Tynwald for approval proposals for the use (5) where we had the figure of 7,000 of the property in the interests of the Manx motoring offences, would it be fair to say public? that such an answer as 7,000 motor acci- dents could apply to the question of any The Governor: I would refer the hon. other hotel on Douglas promenade if it was member to Standing Order 33. I am sorry asked in Tynwald? to disappoint him but none of his questions

Purchase of Nunnery —Question by Mr. Faragher. TYNWAI D COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973 T357

concerns a matter of fact within my special The Governor: The Chairman of the cognisance and perhaps he might like to Board of Agriculture. ask his neighbour. Mr. Crowe: Your Excellency, I do hope Mr. Faragher: Your Excellency, that that the infuriated housewives are not here answer is not satisfactory so far as I am with eggs this morning. At the moment no concerned. Who do I ask? As I said I am eggs can be imported into the Isle of Man not awfully pleased with that answer. I because no regulations have been laid down must be able to ask someone in authority. in the E.E.C. as far as agriculture is con- cerned. Also before eggs could be imported The Governor: I have suggested you ask it would be necessary for Tynwald to rescind the member of the Finance Board who some of the Orders which are now in vogue proposed the resolution. as far as the importation of eggs is con- cerned. The possibility is that within a very Mr. Faragher: Thank you. short time these regulations will be laid down and then it will be up to Tynwald to Mr. Kneale: On that point, sir, in the revoke these Orders and after that there is past when questions have been directed to nothing, I think, that could stop eggs being you and you have not the answers you have imported into the Isle of Man. usually passed them on to a member of the Court who has the answer. Why have you Deemster Moore: Community eggs. not done this in this case? Mr. Crowe: Community eggs, certainly. The Governor: Because I do not think that any body at the moment has the facts Mr. Bell: I have several supplementaries. within their special cognisance. Should I ask them one at a time?

The Governor: Yes.

PRICE OF EGGS — QUESTION BY MRS. Mr. Bell: Is the hon. chairman of the QUAYLE. Board of Agriculture saying to this Court that no eggs are imported into the Isle of The Governor: Question number 5. The Man. hon. member for Castletown. Mr. Crowe: Under licence, eggs can be Mrs. Quayle: Your Excellency, on behalf imported into the Isle of Man at any time. of a number of infuriated housewives I beg There is an order in force which makes to ask: (1) What steps are being taken to it necessary for a licence to be issued. enable Manx housewives to benefit, if they so wish, from the European Economic Mr. Bell: Does the Chairman of the Board Community's price of eggs? (2) Will you of Agriculture have any special knowledge look into the present grading of Manx eggs that the Egg Consultative Committee refused which results in the Manx housewife paying to allow an egg licence for the importation for large grade eggs weighing as little as of eggs into the Island because it was appa- 1 oz. 14 drams, whereas the large grade egg rent that if such a licence or application was in England must be a mimimum of 2 oz. 3 approved these eggs would be sold cheaper drams? than the locally produced eggs.

Price of Eggs — Question by Mrs. Quayle. T358. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

Mr. Crowe: I have no knowledge what- to say that the people who produce eggs soever of what the egg importation people in the Isle of Man produce them from eggs have done. I have no knowledge whatsoever. in much much smaller units than where they are produced in the U.K. (Interruptions.) If Mr. Bell: Is the hon. chairman of the you do not want to hear it is no use me Board of Agriculture aware that yesterday's going on. I am just telling you that eggs prices for eggs in the United Kingdom have to be dearer in the Isle of Man because were 23p net for purchase and in the Isle of of the cost of production. I have to tell just of Man were 30p, but because of the now about the reasons why up to now we regulations which legalise the retail price, have tried to keep Manx people in pro- 304 per cent. had to be added, making a duction in the Isle of Man. This is because statutory retail price of 334p. per dozen and if the price of eggs will go down, as they that if an old age pensioner wishes to buy will on eggs coming in from the E.E.C. half a dozen there is not a legal price that countries into the United Kingdom an awful they can be sold at because we will be tot of people are going to be put out of getting in the realms of split decimal coinage? business. In the Isle of Man possibly all So .they must be refused or the retailer must the producers of eggs will go out of business. suffer the risk of prosecution. What will happen then is anyone's guess but the price of these cheap eggs which Mr. Crowe: The latter part of the question could come into the Isle of Man at the may be correct, sir, but the first part of the present time will certainly not be cheap question was not correct because large eggs eggs when there is no production in the in the United Kingdom could not be pur- Isle of Man. Last evening at a Marketing chased at the price the hon. member men- Committee Meeting three members on the tioned. Large eggs could not be purchased consumer side were very worried that this at that price. (Interruptions.) I said large could happen. If this could happen, natur- eggs. ally eggs in the isle of Man would not be produced and we would depend on all Mr. Bell: Is the Chairman of the Board imported eggs which could be a very bad of Agriculture and Fisheries aware that thing for the consumers in the Isle of Man large eggs could be purchased and delivered and especially for those consumers who to the Isle of Man for 23p per dozen, wished to get fresh eggs. standard eggs for 20p per dozen and medium size eggs for 19p per dozen and that the relevant comparative prices in the Isle of Mr. Beth Your Excellency, could I put Man were 30p for large eggs, no price for this supplementary question to the hon. standard eggs and 25 p. for medium eggs? Chairman? Would the hon. Chairman of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries agree Mr. Crowe: I could not be factual about that if there is any logic at all in his last this and the possibility is that some of those answer that the importation of dried milk figures are correct. I have now to give the into this Island is a direct threat to the answers to the other parts of these two dairy industry of the Isle of Man and will questions. The cost is high because naturally completely undermine the economics of the it costs more in the Isle of Man to produce Milk Marketing Board within the Island? eggs because the feeding stuffs here are brought in in smaller quantities and they are Mr. Crowe: I am not going to answer much more expensive to buy. It is also true anything on milk this morning.

Price of Eggs Question by Mrs. Quayle. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973 T359

Mr. Irving: Your Excellency may I ask Mr. Crowe: We have no need to do that a supplementary? Is the hon. member aware sir because, as the hon. member knows whether or not earlier this month the Council very well, there has been a letter from the of the European Community had approved Home Office, within the last few days I a directive on the detailed proposals for should say, directing these very same things trade in agricultural products between the and telling us what is the answer to that Isle of Man and the Community to take very question. effect on the 1st February? If the hon. member is not aware, has he made any Mrs. Quayle: Your Excellency, may I ask enquiries in order that free trade between a supplementary? In the United Kingdom the Island and the Community in certain arc there not two levels of egg prices and agricultural products may begin immedi- the free range farm produced egg has a ately My third point is this, is it not a fact much better price and would that not be so that the Isle of Man may well in view of in the Isle of Man. the fact that there are orders restricting the import of eggs, we may well at the moment Mr. Crowe: If I may deal with the last be in breach of our European Economic part of Mrs. Quayle's question where she Community commitments? talks about free range eggs. Eggs are sold in the United Kingdom to packing stations and Mr. Crowe : Could I start by answering at the farm gate. The farm gate sales of the last part first. As far as the agricultural eggs in the United Kingdom, we are given regulations are concerned, they did not come to understand, I cannot be quite factual, into operation as far as the Isle of Man is really cover about half the sales of eggs in concerned on the 1st February. As far as the United Kingdom, These are not at a being in breach of the Council of Europe, price which has been quoted this morning. we cannot be until these regulations have The price which has been quoted this morn- been put forward to the Isle of Man and ing by the hon. member Mr.Bell, is of the we are notified of them. As far as the eggs which go into packing stations. The Directive is concerned, at the moment we eggs which are sold at the farm gate are have had no Directives from the E.E.C. or privately sold and these eggs compare much from the Home Office that this is going to more favourably with the price of Manx happen. It will happen in the very near eggs. This is factual. The reason why those future, but at the moment it is not in eggs do command a higher price is that operation. the people wish to get a certified or a guaranteed fresh egg. As for selling free Mr. Irving: May I ask for clarification range eggs, this is just up to the person of that answer? I am asking the hon. who wishes to buy free range eggs and if member is it not a fact that at an earlier they buy at the farm gate they will pay date in this month, the Council of the an increased price for it. As for the grading Community were due to consider the regula- of them, in the United Kingdom there are tions governing trade in agricultural products four grades of eggs against two grades in between the Isle of Man and the Com- the Isle of Man but there is no differential munity? These regulations, is it not a fact, between free range and an egg produced were to take effect from 1st February? Has in one of the big multiple houses. the hon. member made any enquiries from London to find out whether these regula- Mr. Devereau: Could I ask a supple- tions have been agreed by the Council? mentary, Your Excellency? Do you agree

Price of Eggs — Question by Mrs. Quayle. T360 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

with the suggestion in one of Mr. Bell's region of 15 years at least. This was the questions that there is a mark up on very purpose for which this two grade system imported eggs of some 34-i per cent? Would was brought in, that the Manx Producer the Chairman of the Board of Agriculture being a small producer would only have make it dear that there is no control on very few eggs in each grade if he had to imported eggs in the Isle of Man, that grade them into four grades. In the United imported eggs may be sold at any price Kingdom there are four grades, in the Isle that the retailer or wholesaler wishes and of Man there are two and comparing them that the trade are actually in control of the with the United Kingdom grades, in the price of imported•eggs. The question of a Isle of Man the large eggs compare with licence at different times of the year to the large and medium grades in the United protect Manx eggs is a different one alto- Kingdom or the large and standard grades gether. in the United Kingdom and the medium ,grade in the United Kingdom compares Mr. Crowe: This is true, sir. Anything with our medium grade. Anything under that imported is on a free market and we do not — small eggs — are all sold on a free market. control the turnover price from the retailer. When eggs will be imported into the Isle As you know the retailers of eggs in the Isle of Man from the United Kingdom and from of Man, the small grocers and the shop- the E.E.C. countries, if they do come from keepers, are complaining very bitterly that there, there will be seven grades of eggs. their profit margin has not been as high as it should be because at the moment they Mr. Clucas: Your Excellency, I would say they are only getting about 7 per cent. just like to follow that, if I may, because on their turnover. the hon. Chairman answered the question in respect of the smaller Manx Egg Producers, Mr. Clucas: Your Excellency, referring what about the larger Manx Egg Producers to the question of grading I would like to would they welcome such a scheme? ask the hon. Chairman what steps his Board has taken to get the Manx system of grading Mr. Crowe: Talking about large pro-. and the United Kingdom system of grading ducers, when we talk about large producers more in line and in conformity with each in the United Kingdom we talk about other so that, in fact, the housewife in the people having hundreds of thousands of Isle of Man can indeed compare like with hens. like and secondly is it not a fact that Manx Egg Producers would indeed welcome such Mr. MacLeod: Millions. a move? Mr. Crowe: Well we talk at least of Mr. Crowe: Answering the last part first hundreds of thousands. The largest producer sir, if you are in a small way of production of eggs in the Isle of Man, I think has and you have to grade your eggs, the more nine thousand hens, that is the largest and grades you have to divide them into is the he is away out on his own. more work you are going to have to do. For that reason I am sure the Manx Mr. Clucas: What is their view? Producers would not want more than the two grades they have at the moment. This Mr. Crowe: Their view is that they want has been in operation, and I only found two grades but this will be finished in a this out last night, for something in the matter of months as soon as these Agricul-

Price of Eggs — Question by Mrs. Quayle. TYNWALD COURT, PEI-3RUA 12Y 20, 1973 T361

tural Regulations are brought in. These on to the next question. No, 6, the hon. grades, as far as the Isle of Man is con- Mr. Speaker. cerned, will just go by the board. The Speaker: Your Excellency, 1 beg to Mr. Bell: Your Excellency, after what he ask : Will your Board give urgent consider- has said, would the hon. Chairman state that ation to the introduction of a Scheme which he is aware and satisfied with the present will ensure to Manx Egg Producers both a position in respect of certain imported eggs market and fair return for their product, on licence that are not marked, that Manx and at the same time affording to Manx produced eggs are not marked and that the consumers the opportunity of buying eggs consumer is completely at risk that eggs at prices comparable with those in operation which are available on import at 19p can with those in operation in the United in fact be sold for 33.1p which is the legal Kingdom? price for Manx eggs, without any protection to the consumer, giving a profit approxi- The Governor: The Chairman of the mating 80 per cent. Is this not surely a case Board of Agriculture. where there is an interest in the consumer and egg production that certainly needs Mr. Crowe: I think, sir, as far as this is looking at, not before a period of two concerned, no matter what urgent consider- months has elapsed before we get the E.E.C. ation we can give to a Scheme as far as Regulations on standardisation and grading, Manx Egg Producers are concerned, it but as a matter of urgent public importance? would be a waste of time because once these regulations are brought into force we could Mr. Crowe: I may have taken this not give any more subsidy to the Manx question up wrong, Your Excellency, but Producer than can be obtained in the United did the hon. member say imported eggs? Kingdom for instance. The United Kingdom Well if any imported eggs come in, this is are frightened that there is going to be a flood nothing to do with the Board of Agriculture of eggs in from the continental countries as to fixing their price. If you want to put and they can, for two years, try to cushion that question to the Consumer Council I their Producers against these great imports. think you would be acting in a proper At the moment the only help they can give manner. the Producers in the United Kingdom is one half penny per dozen. Mr. Bell: Your Excellency, would the hon. Chairman agree that there is a reason Deemster Moore: Is not the Chairman of for my direction of the matter to him the Board of Agriculture aware that the because most of the information I have special provisions of protocol three of the gleaned has arisen out of a reply to Treaty of Accession arc in force in respect correspondence on Board of Agriculture of the Isle of Man and that the first of stationery. those is that Community rules on Customs matters and qualitative restrictions, in partic- ular those of the Act of Accession, shall apply to the Channel Isles and the Isle of MANX EGG PRODUCERS — QUESTION Man? That is the fist question I would like BY MR. SPEAKER. to ask sir. Secondly, is it not the position that the directive of the detailed application The Governor: I think we might move of agricultural policy has been discussed

Manx Egg Producers — Question by Mr. Speaker. T362 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

with the Isle of Man Common Market subsidy as he has mentioned, but in the Committee, and agreed to go forward to the form that is permitted under Common meeting which is to be held on 26th Market Rules of indirect support to enable February, at which it is likely .o be ap- them to remain in business and be com- proved and therefore, any restrictions which petitive? are presently in force must end? Thirdly, is it not the position that the Isle of Man Mr. Crowe: I would be all in favour will be free to restrict the imports of eggs, of this if I thought and if the Secretary of which are not graded to Community stand- the Board thought at the moment that this ards, but will not be free to restrict the was possible. There is no doubt that in the import of eggs which are to Community protocol it would be possible, if we were a standards? new member State. If you will remember at the last meeting at the Home Office this Mr. Crowe: Starting with the last question was a point which I did put to the meeting. first again, sir. Eggs that are not graded to I said "are we in the Isle of Man a new Community standards certainly we can member State of the Community?" We were restrict their importation, that is factual. All told that we were in under the United eggs coming in will have to be stamped on Kingdom and they were the signatories to the case or the box to which grade -they the Pact as far as the Isle of Man was belong. Outside of that we cannot restrict concerned. Therefore, there was no pos- them. We also know that restrictions sibility, as far as we were concerned, of must end as soon as these regulations are calling ourselves a new member State. If brought in and Tynwald rescind the control we could have done, over the next five years we now have. we could have phased our price of eggs in such a manner that at the end of five years Deemster Moore: We ought to rescind our price and the Community price would at once. have been the same. However, not being a new member State I see no help whereby Mr. Crowe: Tynwald will have to be we can give to our Producers in the Isle of called and rescind. Man to put them in a better position than other persons within the E.E.C. Mr. MacDonald: We will do it now, this afternoon we will do it. Mr. Clucas: Your Excellency, forgive me for being confused but could the hen. Mr. Crowe: As far as the rules for import- Chairman confirm that he himself, His ation of eggs are concerned, I do not think Honour the First Deemster and Mr. Speaker these regulations are in force at the moment. are all members of the same Select Com- mittee of Tynwald on the Common Market? The Speaker: Your Excellency, as the Chairman will undoubtedly agree that Mr. Crowe: That is correct. artificial barriers will go by the end of this month and Community eggs will come in at Mr. Bell: Your Excellency, in view of prices ranging from 41p to 6fp a dozen less what the hon. and learned Deemster has than at market price operating in the Isle of said and the respect with which we hold Man at the moment, will he give consider- his opinion, would the hon. Chairman of ation to giving support to Manx Egg Pro- the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries now ducers, not necessarily in the form of a have a look at the duties of his Egg Con-

Manx Egg Producers — Question by Mr. Speaker. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973 T363

sultative Committee and see whether in fact time comes there will be no licensing of they are not making regulations or refusing eggs coming into the Isle of Man. All eggs applications which are or could in fact be can come in freely and move freely into illegal? Will he give due note and consider- the Isle of Man without licence. ation to what the options of this could be if a Board of Tynwald continues to condone The Speaker: Your Excellency, would an illegal act to a legal application? We are the Chairman agree that while subsidy going to have anarchy in Government and payments to producers are not permitted that is the last thing we want. Let us have under the Common Market System indirect a democratic Government. aid in the form of grants towards deprecia- tion and other forms of aid of that nature Mr. Crowe: As far as this Committee are permissible and could be, in fact, put who does sell our imports of eggs sir, the into operation in this Island? Board of Agriculture, to my knowledge, have no control whatsoever over this Com- Mr. Crowe: This is something that might mittee. These are a Committee elected but be possible, I am saying might. If you help not by the Board of Agriculture. a producer of any article more than his opposite number in any of the other E. E.C. Mr. MacLeod: Your Excellency, may I countries, you are liable to be in serious ask a supplementary? May I ask the Chair- trouble, quite naturally. However, I think man of the Board of Agriculture if all those we have been told that, for instance, if we eggs are allowed to come into the Isle of wish to help farmers who were producing Man and the Manx Producer is put out of beef we could not give them a subsidy to business, in the event of a Seamen's Strike, get their price up to help them to ship like we have had not so very long ago, where anything off the Island, we could not pay are we going to get the eggs from? the freight for instance. On the other hand, I think we have been told that we could Mr. MacDonald: Ireland, in the fishing give them a subsidy to help them to fertilise boats like we did last time. their [and to produce more beef. I think this is permissible. How we could do it, as Mr. Irving: Your Excellency, would not far as eggs are concerned, it might he the hon. member agree that should the possible under depreciation I do not know. detailed proposals for Trade and Agricultural We might be able to buy grit to put better Products be agreed on the 26th in Brussels, shells on their eggs or something of that will the Board of Agriculture then inform nature, I do not know. We would have to the Egg Consultative Committee that with look into this. effect from that date they may issue. unre- strictedly licences for the import of eggs — The Speaker: Thank you.

Deemster Moore: Not may must! Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, could I ask a supplementary? Is the Chairman Mr. Irving: Must, sir, providing those not aware that the answers he has given eggs are graded according to the standards this morning far from assisting the Manx either the Irish, United Kingdom or original housewife are, in fact, going to antagonise Community standards? the Manx housewife not only against egg production and egg costs but against the Mr. Crowe: Your Excellency, when that whole farming community because it would

Manx Egg Producers— Question by Mr. Speaker. T364 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

appear, Mr. Chairman, that your Board is Noa Estate where the problem is a serious setting out to protect high costs at all costs? one? When something can be had slightly cheaper it is then defending the high price. The Manx The Governor: The Chairman of the is getting the worst of both worlds. I accept Local Government Board. what the learned Deemster has said and I do not see why I should accept your answer Mr. P. Radcliffe: Thank you, Your Excel- any more than the Deemster's and I think, lency, I am very pleased to come on to a taken on balance and knowing what goes question that is not so controversial, housing on, I think I would accept what the learned never is. I thank the hon. Mr. Speaker for Deemster has said that these rules are in asking the question as it gives me an force now. We are in the Common Market opportunity of explaining some of the and Jersey spelt this out very, very clearly difficulties encountered by the Local Gov- in a leaflet that they isued two years ago erment Board in providing car parking to their people. There would no be protec- facilities at some of its older Estates. In tionist policies at all. Yet here we are in order to ascertain the extent of the problem the Common Market, interruption) all right today, I sought the co-operation of the it is coming on the 26th, six days hence. Police in ascertaining the number of motor We are still playing about when your Board vehicles parked by the ocupants of the four should have before Tynwald today the Housing Estates owned by the Board in necessary regulations so that in six days the Laxey area. This survey was carried time, it is in force. This is very important out between 11.45 p.m. and 12.30 a.m. last otherwise you are going to antagonise every Friday night, 16th February, 1973 It was housewife in the Isle of Man. found that at the Gretch Noa Estate, which comprises 14 houses, there were 16 motor The Speaker: Your Excellency, is it not vehicles. Two of these had to be parked on a fact that the Board of Agriculture and the the Ballaragh Road as there was insufficient Common Market Committee were not fully room on the Estate. At the Glen Road informed on this issue until one week ago? Estate, which has 12 houses, there were 6 cars parked on the roadway. At Minorca Mr. Crowe: Yes. Estate, which has 11 houses, there were 8 cars parked on the roadway and at Balla- cannel Estate, containing 36 houses, 28 motor vehicles were counted also parked on PARKING AT LAXEY HOUSING the roadway. All these Estates have been ESTATE — QUESTION BY MR. built at least 20 years and at that time there SPEAKER. was no significant car parking problem. Today of course the position is vastly The Governor: Shall we move on to different as 1 have already stated by the human houses. Question number 7, the hon. figures supplied by the Police. A check on Mr. Speaker. some other Estates on the Island has shown an average of If cars per house and proves The Speaker: Your Excellency, I beg to we have a more affluent society than we ask : If this Board will give consideration had ten or twenty years ago. The Board is to providing reasonable car parking facilities quite prepared to provide car parking spaces for the Board's existing Laxey housing or garages at an economic charge to the estates and, in particular, at the Gretch tenants, when the Board's finances permit.

Parking at Laxey Housing Estate — Question by Mr. Speaker. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973 T365

The Gretch Noa Estate has presented a real Government Offices? problem in that there is very limited space within the Estate suitable for the creation of Mr. Kneate: Your Excellency, may I ask a car park and enquiries over a number of a supplementary? If the Local Government years about the acquisition of adjoining Board provide car parking space in front land for this purpose has all proved unsuc- of the houses, as suggested by removing cessful. Since the hon. Mr. Speaker has part of the garden, would you then ban raised the question 1 have had the matter parking on the road in front of the houses re-examined and it may be possible, by or would you just be providing room for setting back the garden boundaries in the an additional car per house? Estate because in those days I think there was rather elaborate gardening room given Mr. P. Radcliffe: The situation, Your to each house, it may be possible to provide Excellency, I think did come to light some car parking spaces off the road. This may time ago when on quite a number of these prove quite costly and it is felt that a small Estates that are cul-de-sacs the people reasonable charge should be made as this were permitted to park their cars without cost should not be borne by the taxpayer. lights at night. The Police, however, felt that I hope to discuss this matter with the other these public spaces were open up to the members of my Board at the next meeting. general public and therefore the cars could Dealing briefly with the other Estates, 22 car not be parked on them without parking parking spaces have already been allocated lights. We, therefore, started going on our at Ballacannell and i am pleased to say various Estates examining the situation and that a contract has been placed and the work as I have said on many Estates when they is about to commence. I do not think there were built some twenty years ago, I think is a particular car parking problem at the possibly the tenants at that time may have Glen Road and Minorca Estates but the been a bit more energetic than what some Board would be willing to consider sym- of them arc today. They were given large pathetically any representation made by the gardens both at the front and the rear of residents of these houses if it can be shown the houses. An ornamental garden at the there is a case worthy of support. In con- front for their flowers and a vegetable clusion Your Excellency, I would like to garden at the back. On quite a lot of these assure this hon. Court that sufficient car Estates we find that the gardens are far too parking spaces are provided in all the Board's big and it is possible to introduce into the Estates built in the last seven years and in front areas of some of them, car parking those presently under construction to allow space, which does mean that the tenants for at least one car space per house. This can park their cars in front of their own includes the Estate of 28 houses now being premises in the evening without having to completed, and I think appreciated, in the park them on the public highway. However, Upper Valley Gardens in Laxey. there is no restriction to stop anybody from parking a car on the highway. in the The Speaker: Your Excellency, may I Estate as long as they comply with the law express my indebtedness to the Chairman and leave their parking lights on. This is of the Local Government Board for the just what they do not want to do. interest and helpful nature of the reply and could I ask him if he would possibly bear Mr. Clucas: Your Excellency, could I just in mind the sort of development that he ask a question on the way that, particularly has mentioned when dealing with Central in Laxey, at the Cooil Rai Housing Estate

Parking at Laxey Housing Estate — Question by Mr. Speaker. T366 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

car park, which is an Estate owned by hon. Chairman not agree that he recently Government, this is tending to become a said that the mere acquisition of cars now dumping ground for derelict or damaged points to a more affluent society than that motor vehicles and indeed when I was there, of twenty years ago when these houses were not a fortnight ago, before I knew this built and that if his Board is to succumb question was being tabled, there was a to irresponsible presure to put extra charges wrecked car and two engine blocks just on the tenants then he will wipe away any lying in the middle of this particular car pseudo affluence he refers to and bring our park. Could your Board possibly look into citizens back to a standard of twenty years this question to see if we could ensure that ago. what is laid out as a car park is indeed available for those who wish to use it for Miss Cowin : Rubbish! that purpose? Mr. Bell: Would he also agree that it is Mr. P. Radcliffe: I think, Your Excellecny, quite possible to accommodate street parking possibly my hon. colleague' may be taking merely by putting all night lamps in streets or into consideration that the car park belong- encourage Local Authorities to do this so ing to the Cooil Roi Estate is also adjacent that vehicles may park without all night to the car park used by Princes Motors lights provided that the Local Authority's Garage and it is possibly on the Princes street light is sufficient. Motors Garage area that these car blocks are at the present moment. Again, 1 would Mr. P. Radcliffe: In reply to that, Your like to emphasise the fact that although the Excellency, I have no desire, neither has any Local Government Board appear to be the member of my Board, to put any restric- Authority to look after the complete Isle of tions on the tenants. If we have a more Man we have such things as Local Auth- affluent society I am only very pleased that orities and they have duties to perform. It is they are and I think the Government of the about time they performed the duties they Isle of Man is to be congratulated in intro- are supposed to perforni. ducing a policy that made them a more affluent society. I certainly think that we Mrs. Quayle: Your Excellency, could I ask should do all we can to encourage these a supplementary on that very matter? Other people to have their motor cars, I am all Local Authorities have provided parking for it: However, I do not think that the areas for which the tenants have to pay. general taxpayer as such should be asked to Now should there not be a common policy subsidise garages or car parking spaces and formulated? I do not think that the tenants as such want it either because they have said you provide Mr. P. Radcliffe: As I have already said, them for us and we are quite prepared to Your Excellency, if we do provide car pay for them. parking spaces within these Estates, most likely the procedure to be followed by the Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, follow- Board will be that they will up-point the ing on the last question could I ask a houses to include the car parking space that question of the Chairman? Would his will be occupied by the tenants so,they will Board have a close look, I know it would be paid for. be very unpopular, have a close look at lots of people who are sitting in Government Mr. Bell: Your Excellency, would the and Local Authority houses who appear to be

Parking at Laxey Housing Estate Question by Mr. Speaker. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973 T367

able to afford not just one car but two and Court that this does not happen in Local three cars? I know of one case where two cars Government Board property if it happens wete bought within a month by one family, in Peel well then I think it is about time Peel and would he not have a look at these realised it. particular families with a view to encour- aging them to move into accommodation that they can afford to get for themselves and make way for some of these very much STANDARD OF BUILDING shouted about young people who cannot CONSTRUCTION — QUESTION BY MR. afford to buy their own houses? I have seen, KNEA LE. in my own area, Your Excellency, people in Council houses and actually move into The Governor: Question No, 8, the hon. Council houses having just sold their own member for West Douglas. house, and then blossom forth with not one car but two and three cars which are Mr. Kneale: Your Excellency, I beg to all parked outside, I do not think for one ask : (I) Is the Local Government Board minute that the Government policy or the satisfied with the standard of building con- Board's policy is designed to cater for this struction being carried out on the Island? type of person. I think we should have a (2) If not, what action is being taken to look and we should encourage these people deal with the circumstances in general and to get their own house under one of the individual firms in particular? (3) Does the three excellent housing schemes that we Board believe that the powers of the Building have got. Trades Council in reference to the regi- stration and de-registration of builders Miss Cowin: Your Excellency, relating to and workmen should be strengthened and the observations of the last speaker. Three extended? cars in one family presupposes that there are three persons in that family to drive The Governor: The Chairman of the those cars. It also presupposes that these Local Government Board. people who are at present living in that house will sooner or later take up their Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I do residence when they marry and move away. not think it is wise or correct to generalise on (Interruptions) if you will allow me sir. Then the standard of building construction in the the parents of that family should remain in Island. For the most part building construc- the house which is and has been seen to be tion has been up to a satisfactory standard. legitimately their right to reside in. I think There are, however, a growing number of a very short-sighted view is being taken here incidents where unsatisfactory work has been and I like fair play in all things. discovered in the course of inspections under- taken by the Board's Officers. Frequently, a Mr. MacDonald: You are talking theo- request to make good faulty work becomes retically, I am talking practically. a time consuming exercise for various reasons. It is not always possible to contact Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, if I the responsible person on a site who can could just briefly reply to the hon. member take and give instructions for remedial work from Peel who made the comment that to be put in hand, Very often the lump people sold their house and then moved labour responsible for the work have moved into a Council house. I can assure this hon. to another job or 'if they are still on the site

Standard of Building Construction — Question by Mr. Knealc. T368 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

• they have no further interest or apparent turally sound but which can look very liability in respect of their work. Occasion- unsightly. The Board carries out these duties ally. those liable and in a position to give in a comprehensive way but it is wrong to directions live off the Island and arc other- assume, as many people do, that the Board wise difficult to contact and of course it is responsible for the Building Industry of must also be said that in some instances the the Isle of Man. Functioning Local Auth- men employed arc just not capable of orities are responsible within their own turning out a proper job. In some cases boundaries although duplication of duties unskilled labour has been employed to carry frequently arises and does not always out skilled work, such as brickwork, drain promote the best results. The powers already laying, painting and so forth, As far as the vested in the Board should and could be law permits, and I would emphasise that extended to cover all builders and tradesmen point, stricter action is being taken and new and control will only be effective when this legislation will be immediately considered does come about. Dealing, Your Excellency, to strengthen the position. The result of the with part (3) of the question, I hesitate to short-comings I have mentioned and the comment on the Building Trades Council inadequacies on site management is that which was set up under the authority of valuable time has to be spent, by the Tynwald and not under the authority of Technical Officers, explaining and instructing the Local Government Board. However, how to execute the work. Having stated perhaps 1 could venture the point of view sonic of the problems it is only fair and that the Council's powers, at present, appear just to say that on the whole the long- to be rather ineffective in controlling established firms have good organisations building standards. I am aware that they and a reputation to protect which usually have powers of de-registration of builders results in satisfactory work, The Board can and of workmen and that one case referred only act, at present, where they arc directly to them by the Board is currently under affected and this is in three ways. Firstly, consideration. In fact, the builders concerned under the Schemes with Government finan- have been required to take down to foun- cial assistance such as the Private Enterprise dations an unsatisfactory dwelling in their Scheme, the Tourist Improvement Sheme, Estates which has had to be rebuilt. In 1965 the Rural and Urban Housing Schemes. the Council sought more control over the Secondly, on developments undertaken by standards of workmanship in the Building the Board itself such as the construction of Industry and recommended that the regula- houses for letting which have been fully tions governing their schemes be amended supervised. There arc the obvious financial in a number of ways with the intention of sanctions which can be applied under both achieving this end. One of the Council's these types of work in order to achieve recommendations was that registration be satisfactory standards. The third category made compulsory for all builders operating is the inspection of work carried out under in the Isle of Man irrespective of whether the, building bye-laws in the areas where public funds were involved or not and that the Board exercises this statutory respons- penalties be imposed on builders failing to ibility. I must emphasise, however, that a register. This would require legislation and standard of workmanship to meet the bye- I understand that steps were initiated in the laws does not mean a good standard of matter but did not progress due to the building. This is in terms of quality of pressure of other drafting work. The Board painting, joinery and crude methods of are seeking a meeting with the Building solving difficulties which might be struc- Trades Council to discuss this and other

Standard of Building Construction —Question by Mr. Kneale. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973 T369

matters. One of our recommendations will the Private Enterprise Scheme. It is the be that a special register be kept of those house I referred to in my answer, it was so firms willing to offer a ten year guarantee out of plumb that the doors would not of workmanship that can be invoked by the shut for one matter and the windows were purchaser of a new house. We are also very difficult to get in line also. So, our seeking, Your Excellency, a meeting with Inspector went along and refused them the National House Builders Registration permission to proceed any further with the Council in England with reference to the house and told them that the house would employment of Inspectors and the method have to be taken down. I think hon. mem- of financing this Scheme. I hope, Your bers again must remember that Willaston Excellency, that the answers I have given is within the town boundary of Douglas and the hon. member will clear up some of the Douglas Town Council, like some other points that have arisen over the past six Local Authorities, employ their own build- months in reference to unsatisfactory work ing inspection staff. Some of the other Local and I can assure him that the Board will be Authorities ask the Local Government Board taking immediate steps to have more powers to act on their behalf. Thus we are only delegated to the Board in this matter. involved within the town boundary of Douglas where a house is built under the Government Schemes. This is where the Mr. Kneale: Your Excellency, may I ask people who are building under Government a supplementary? In part (2) of the questions Schemes get additional assistance and tech- I asked about individual firms in particular nical advice because. the houses are inspected and I have brought it to the notice of the from damp proof course right through at Local Government Board Officials and the various stages until the house is completed. Chairman about some of the building that We have notified this firm that no further is going on in the Willaston area. I would applications will he accepted from them like the hon. member to comment on what under the Private Enterprise Scheme until action is being taken to supervise this work we are satisfied that their standard of work and also to protect the people who have is much improved. As far as the other made agreements to purchase houses from situation is concerned, it is entirely up to the this particular firm and who have given Douglas Town Council to see that these notice to leave their own property and now people do construct their houses in a satisfac- have had several substantial increases in the tory manner. Our Building Inspector pointed costs added on to the agreed price. They also out to me, at the time we visited this site, and find that when their time has come for their we spend quite a lot of time visiting these notice expiring on their old premises that various properties, that in the construction the houses are not ready. I would like some of the house for example there was a certain comments on what action is being taken pitch on some of the roofs that complied about this particular firm, sir. with the required pitch of certain types of tiles. Apparently, the Building Inspector, had Mr. P. Radcliffe: Yes, Your Excellency, closed his eyes to the fact, and this is not I think the hon. member, and give him one of the Local Government Board Inspec- credit on this, he did speak to me privately tors, that the tiles put on the roof did not about this matter some time ago before the comply with the required pitch on the roof questions were tabled. I think it arose in and all those houses should have had their the first place when one of these building roofs immediately removed and the required firms constructed a house to be built under pitch put on them.

Standard of Building Construction —Question by Mr. Kneale. T370 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

Mr. Bell: What district is this that you Mr. P. Radcliffe: As I have said. Your are talking about? Excellency, the Board, at the present moment, are asking for a meeting with the Mr. P. Radcliffe: This was in the Douglas Building Trades Registration Council. I hope district, I am not going to specifically state that within the next month, if anybody likes any builder, 1 am saying in general there to ask me further questions on this, I will be is a requirement for a much stricter super- able to give you a more satisfactory answer. vision throughout the Island on building. As However, you must not forget the fact, as long as we have got this complication and I pointed out earlier, the Building Trades duplication of Local Authorities and Central Council was not set up under the Local Government we are never going to get a Government Board, it was set up under satisfactory answer. The only answer to the Tynwald. problem is for the Building Trades Council to transfer all their duties over to a Board, The Speaker: Your Excellency, may I ask •and Heaven knows we have got enough a supplementary please? I am sure the Court work to do, but it is the only way to solve are delighted to learn that the Local Gov- the problem. To actually have a central ernment Board have been giving consider- body of Inspectors responsible then for ation to the provision of a guaratee scheme building and you know exactly where to lay on a voluntary basis. My question is would the blame. This will have to come before the Board consider extending this possibility we arc going to get a satisfactory answer to embracing in new legislation a require- to the questions raised by the hon. member. ment, in law, that a guaratee be given on new construction for a period of say up to Mr. Bell: Your Excellency, it is all very three years? interesting and it is interesting to hear this morning that the Legal Aid Bill had been Mr. P. Radcliffe: I am quite prepared to given the Royal Assent. That has taken say that the Board have already got this nine years, it was raised here in 1964. In on their agenda for discussion with these 1964 I served on the Registration Council people that we are going to meet to discuss as a member of the Board of Education.At this housing situation. that time the Registration Council members were seeking for the Local Government Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, could Board to embrace all their regulations in I ask a supplementary please? I listened statute form and to give the Local Govern- to the Chairman mention the Building Trades ment Board the authority to enter on sites Council to which I have been recently and supervise. No one would disagree with appointed as a member. I was rather amazed the concern that has been expressed but to hear that they have had a case of bad feel quite sure, Your Excellency, that until building which has not been referred to the we get the legal form right the Building Tri des Council. Registration Council can only deal with registering people who apply. They cannot Mr. P. Radcliffe: I beg to differ, I said deal with entering upon sites and disquali- it had been referred to the Trades Council fying any work but it would be interesting and they suggested that the house be taken to know. Your Excellency, how many people down. are in fact on the "A" register of the Government's Registration Council and how Mr. MacDonald: The Building Registra- many have we got on the "B" register? tion Council control the registration of all

Standard of Building Construction — Question by Mr. Kneale. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973 T371

builders on the Island. I would like the will take care of the main contractor Chairman to assure me that in fact his forthwith. Board, when they find these things, let the Building Registration Council know so that Mr. Faragher: Your Excellency, on a the Council could consider de-registering point of order. some builders. This they can do, they have the power to register and they also have The Governor: Yes. the power to deregister. This is one way of stopping "fly" firms operating. I would Mr. Faragher: in answer to my question, also like to ask the Chairman if he is aware question No. 4, you said you could not give of how the registration of a firm operates. me an answer and you referred me to my You can have a firm of three directors who hon. colleague on my right, I admittedly know nothing whatsoever about building. asked him and he said no, Sir. Now I am These three directors then look around and an elected member of this House the same get one carpenter and one mason. This as anyone else and 1 reckon that any enables them to set up in business as building question I ask, a legitimate question, this contractors. They then employ not a single House, I have every right to have it other local tradesman. answered. I would like to get the members of the House of Keys to support me in that. (Hear, hear.) The Governor: Will you come to the question please'? The Governor: Well, I suggest that at next meeting you ask the Chairman of the Mr. MacDonald: I am asking if he knows Board of Finance. this? (Laughter.) Is he aware of this?

Mr. P. Radcliffe: The answer is yes sir. (Laughter.) STANDING COMMITTEE ON COMMON INTERESTS OF I.O.M. AND U.K. - Mr. MacDonald: Could I then ask what STATEMENT BY MR. SPEAKER ON his Board is doing about it? MANX RADIO.

Miss Cowin: Your Excellency, may I ask The Governor: Item 4, the hon. Mr. if it is generally known that the Registration Speaker. Council have power over those who register, but over those who prefer not to register The Speaker: Your Excellency, a little they have no power at all, they cannot over a year ago, Your Excellency in Exec- de-register them because they have not been utive Council, at the request of the Broad- registered therefore there is an absolute casting Commission, referred to the Standing absence of power over these unregistered Committee the problem of an increase in firms? the transmitting power of Manx Radio, which had been discussed with Departments Mr. Bell: Your Excellency, the hon. of Her Majesty's Government for some ten Chairman may say that if the unregistered years, but had not been resolved and was a people, that the hon. member has referred matter of concern to Isle of Man Govern- to, are on a site where the main contractor ment. The problem has been examined and is registered then the Registration Council discussed at length in the Standing Commit-

Standing Committee on Common Interests of I.O.M. and U.K. — Statement by Mr. Speaker on Manx Radio. T372 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

tee, and your members now have to report INCREASE IN TRANSMITTING POWER that they have been quite unable to arrive FOR MANX RADIO. at a satisfactory solution. The divergence of views between the United Kingdom and Isle of Man members of the Committee is such that your members conclude no useful PRELIMINARY purpose would be served by continuing these discussions. Very briefly, the Island's aspi- I. It may be helpful to recall that the rations are for an effective Manx Radio Standing Committee was set up following station, under insular control, and satisfactory the Report of the Joint Working Party on to the island from the point of view of the Constitutional Relationship between the adequate reception in the island. and of Isle of Man and the United Kingdom ("the financial stability. The achievement of this Stonham Report"). The purpose of the aim would inevitably result in some spillage Committee is described in paragraph 47(1) of signal into the fringe of the adjacent of the Report and a copy of this paragraph islands. In the view of Her Majesty's is attached as Appendix 'A'. Government, if there is to be any spillage of signal from this station into the United 2. The undersigned currently constitute the Kingdom then the station must be under Isle of Man Members of the Standing Com- the control of Her Majesty's Government. mittee and, for convenience, are described in Although our discussions have ranged over the following paragraphs of this Report as some twelve months, during which your "the Members". representatives, in consultation with the Broadcasting Commission, at all times have 3. At the relevant meetings of the Com- submitted a number of constructive pro- mittee when the transmitting power of Manx posals designed to meet the viewpoint of Radio has been discussed, the United King- Her Majesty's Government, none have been dom representatives have been drawn from found acceptable and we have not been able the Home Office and Ministry of Posts and to resolve this problem. In order that mem- Telecommunications (In this report called bers may be aware of the developments "the Ministry") and led by the Minister of that have taken place. the members of the State, Lord Colville, and supported by Mr. Standing Committee have prepared a report Witney and Captain Carrington. which you will find on your desks for information.. THE REFERENCE (The report mentioned in the above state- 4. On 3rd February 1972 Your Excellency ment is set out below with the exception of in Executive Council formally advised the graphs and maps.) Members of the existence of an unresolved problem concerning the transmitting power IN TYNWALD of Manx Radio, which was a matter of 20th FEBRUARY, 1973. concern to Isle of Man Government.

REPORT BY THE ISLE OF MAN MEM- 5. The Members noted, however, that all BERS OF THE STANDING COMMITTEE normal channels for negotiation had not ON THE COMMON INTERESTS OF THE been exhausted, in that a meeting had been ISLE OF MAN AND THE UNITED arranged between the Isle of Man Broad- KINGDOM. casting Commission (hereinafter referred to

Standing Committee on Common Interests of .0.M. and U.K. —Statement by Mr. Speaker on Manx Radio. 1373 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

as "the Commission") and the Ministry, 9. In general terms the main pros and cons and accordingly deferred further consider- of these two approaches to the problem may ation pending the outcome of that meeting. be summarised as follows:—

6. The meeting was duly held on 8th (a) The higher power solution. March 1972 and subsequently the Commis- sion reported it had not been successful in Would cater for that large number solving the problem. Accordingly the matter of sets currently in use, which do not was placed by the Members on the Agenda tune down to 188 metres on the for the next meeting of the Standing medium waiveband, or which do not Commi ttee. have VHF receiving facilities. Partic- ularly is this the case in respect of car radios. THE PROBLEM 7. For ten years the Commission and The principal drawback is that, even others had been endeavouring to secure a with expensive directional aerials, higher transmitting power on the medium there is some inevitable spillage of waveband for Manx Radio and many signal into the adjacent island. discussions had been held principally with the Ministry and its predecessors. To all (b) The low power solution. the technological complexities of the prob- lem had been added the changing views Largely confines the signals to the of the varying personalities involved, and the island. The principal drawback is that changing policies adopted from time to additional stations have' to be pro- time by Her Majesty's Government. The vided and would pose operational first paper received by the Committee was difficulties and. of course, signals a Memorandum from the Commission can not he received on many radio directed to this aspect. The Memorandum sets which are not equipped to is attached as Appendix 'W. receive transmissions at 188 metres.

10. At a meeting between the Commission THE APPROACH and the Ministry in March 1971 it had been 8. The Members ascertained that there were agreed that the Ministry would carry out a currently two main lines of approach to the technical survey of the Island and produce Island on the problem of securing better a paper. In the event the paper was not coverage of the Island on the medium wave- produced until a year later. That paper. band by Manx Radio:— which, briefly, outlined the proposal to use low powered satellite stations on 188 metres, (a) In the view of the Commission, by is included in Appendix V. securing higher transmitting power for Manx Radio at 232 metres on 11. The question of the station being under the medium waveband; and the control of an authority answerable to Parliament is referred to in Appendix 'W. (b) In the view of the Ministry, by the This aspect had also been considered by the use of two very low power satellite Joint Working Party ("the Stonham Report") stations in the Island at 188 metres and is referred to at some length in para- on the medium waveband. graph 44 of that Report. A copy of the

Standing Committee on Common Interests of ,O.M. and U.K.—Statement by Mr. Speaker on Manx Radio. T374 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

paragraph is attached as Appendix 'C. THE INTERVAL BETWEEN MEETINGS OF THE COMMITTEE 12. Proposals had been made by the Isle 17. in August Members received a prelim- of Man representatives on the Stonham inary report from the Commission setting Committee and were reproduced as Ap- out its views on the matters to which the pendix 9 to the Stonham Report. A copy of Isle of Man had agreed to give further these proposals is attached as Appendix consideration. Generally the Commission did not favour any of the proposals, although 13. This was the position when the first the suggestion about operating under a meeting of the Committee was convened in United Kingdom agency was being further the Island on 27th July 1972. considered. THE FIRST MEETING 18. On 11th December 1972 a paper was 14. At the first meeting, at the instigation received setting out the United Kingdom of the Members, the Commission, in the light views on the matters mentioned in paragraph of their extensive first-hand knowledge of 16(a) above. Briefly, the United Kingdom the problem, were invited to be present and Members proposed amendments which to contribute to the discussion. which would bring Manx Radio so effect- ively under Uuited Kingdom control as to l5. A memorandum from the Ministry in completely destroy its identity. amplification of the previous proposals was tabled. This paper slightly varied the 19. There remained the question (referred proposals for the use of low-powered to in paragraph 16(b)(ii) above) of Manx satellite stations, by suggesting variations to Radio operating as part of a consortium overcome technical difficulties. under the Independent Broadcasting Auth- ority. The Commission wished to give 16. After a prolonged discussion, during further consideration to this question, and which all aspects of the problem were a meeting had been arranged between the ventilated it was agreed to adjourn the Commission and the I.B.A. This meeting meeting for some months so that — took place in London on 20th December 1972. (a) the United Kingdom Members could give further consideration to the Isle 20. The Commission have reported fully of Man proposals on control of the to the Members on the outcome of that station set out in Appendix `D' meeting. Whilst the Commission did not hereto; and favour the original suggestion, as it would involve Manx Radio becoming part of the •(b) the Isle of Man Members could give I.B.A. set-up, at the same time the question further consideration to — of the Commission becoming involved in a consortium to operate the Liverpool Station (i) the Ministry's proposals for very might be further pursued, but on an low-power satellite stations; and investment basis and as something quite separate and apart from the question of (ii) a suggestion that Manx Radio more transmitting power for Manx Radio. might operate under the control of a United Kingdom Agency. 21. On receipt of this report the Members

Standing Committee on Common Interests of I.O.M. and U.K. — Statement by Mr. Speaker on Manx Radio. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973 T375

submitted a paper to the United Kingdom as to effectively cover the Island on representatives, summarising the views this wavelength will not be granted conveyed to the Members by the Commission. at present by Her Majesty's Govern- ment by reason of the incidental THE RESUMED MEETING OF THE spillage that would inevitably occur COMMITTEE into the adjacent islands, unless the Station comes under the effective 23. The resumed meeting was convened in control of Her Majesty's Government Douglas on Thursday, 8th February 1973. or an agency thereof, and that the Again the Commission was invited to attend. Island is not willing to concede that control ; 24. After a discuSsion which lasted some two hours it was found impossible to (c) that, for similar reasons of control. reconcile the views held by the United the suggestion to incorporate the Kingdom Members of the Committee and Station in the I.B.A. network is not those held by the Manx representatives. No acceptable to the Island ; agreement was reached other than that both sides of the Committee would report back (d) that Her Majesty's Government is not to their respective Governments. This, your willing to change or vary its attitude Members now do in this document. on any of these matters; and

CONCLUSIONS (e) that, for these reasons, the prolong- 25. Your Members, as a result of these ation of discussions in Committee considerations and discussions, firmly and would be a futile exercise. unanimously conclude that it is impossible for the Standing Committee to attain, in POSTSCRIPT discussion, the Island's aspirations for an 27, Your Members regret that they must effective Manx Radio Station under insular express disapointment at the unyielding control, satisfactory to the Island from the attitude adopted by the United Kingdom point of view of adequate reception in the Members, which has made negotiation Island and of financial stability. extremely difficult, if not impossible.

26. In particular they further conclude — (SIGNED) H. C. KERRU1SH (Chairman) (a) that the proposal to establish two 1. B. BOLTON (or more) very low satellite stations P. RADCLIFFE on the Island, broadcasting on 188 metres or possibly alternative wave- DOUGLAS lengths, would involve further capital 20th February, 1973. and revenue expenditure by Manx Radio and would not be conducive APPENDIX A to the financial viability and stability of the Station ; . PART V

(b) that the Island's aspirations for SUMMARY OF RECOMMENDATIONS increased transmitting power at 232 metres on the medium waveband to Matters on which agreement has been

Standing Committee on Common Interests of .O.M. and U.K. — Statement by Mr. Speaker on Manx Radio. T376 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

reached for changes to be recommended in Part 1 the present relationship Commission's Paper on Manx Radio sub- mitted to the Minister of Posts and Telecom- 47. (i) The Working Party recommends munications:— to the two Governments that a consultative committee to be known as "The Standing The U.K. Wireless Telegraphy Act 1949 Committee on the Common interests of the was extended to the Isle of Man by Order in Isle of Man and the United Kingdom" Council — the U.K. Government had asked should be established. The Committee should if we wished it to be so extended and consist of three members elected by Tynwald Tynwald on the 26th October 1949 agreed to represent the Island and three represent- to ask for the extension.. It was not extended atives of the United Kingdom Government until the 29th October 1952 which indicates with a joint secretariat. The Isle of Man that the U.K. Government did not consider Representatives stated that their members it to be a matter of importance one way or would all be members of the Isle of Man the other. Government and the Working Party express the hope that the United Kingdom Repre- It was this extension of the Act to the sentatives will include a Minister. Member- isle of Man at our request which gave the ship would not be permanent and there Postmaster General the right to issue would be scope for the attendance of others licences for transmission from anywhere on as the case might arise. Members of the Com- the Island. mittee would be able to invite Government officials and others to be present to assist In May 1956 Tynwald requested exten- in consideration of items of business. The sion of the Television Act 1954 to the Isle Chairmanship should be held by a repre- of Man and it was extended by Order in sentative from each side at alternate meet- Council eleven months later which indicates ings. The Committee should meet regularly that the U.K. Government treated it with a at half yearly intervals in London and greater degree of urgency than the Wireless Douglas alternately, and more frequently Telegraphy Act. at the request of either side as the need arose. It is recommended that the Committee In October 1961 and in January 1962 should consider any matter of mutual con- Tynwald unanimously passed resolutions cern that may be referred to it by either asking for the revocation of these two 'Government ; keep under review the practical Orders in Council (it seems reasonable to working of the relationship between the two expect that if we were allowed to decide Governments so that difficulties may be for ourselves to ask for the Acts to be resolved either as they arise or if possible extended to the Isle of Man then we should in advance; and keep under review those be entitled to expect that we had the same areas of Government where it may be rights in asking for and receiving revocation desirable that the United Kingdom and the of them). Isle of Man should pursue similar policies. (See paragraph 28.) It was four months after Tynwald's first application to the Home Office before a APPENDIX B letter was received from them on 22nd PAPER TO STANDING COMMITTEE February 1962 — this was the first acknow- ON COMMON INTERESTS RE MANX ledgment that they had ever received our RADIO letter.

Standing Committee on Common Interests of 1.0.M. and U.K.—Statement by Mr. Speaker on Manx Radio. T377 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

They asked for a deputation to discuss undertaken by Her Majesty's Government, Tynwald's proposals and a deputation from and with broadcasting policy within the the Island met Officers of the Home Office U.K, itself, and their effects on reception in and the Post Office at a meeting held at the the U.K." Home Office on Friday, 13th April, 1962. They therefore could not agree to a On 18th April 1962 the Manx deputa- revocation because "it would not be possible tion reported back to Tynwald that they had to give effect to the plans of Radio Manx made no progress on the issue at all and without breach of international obligations." Tynwald passed unanimously a resolution "That Tynwald re-affirms its desire that The only reason that would cause a legislation be proceeded with to empower breach of international obligations was the the Governor to issue licences for wireless desire of Radio Manx to broadcast to parts transmission from the Isle of Man and of Western Europe and this point is empa- further re-affirms the request made to Her sised by the U.K. Government agreeing to Majesty for the revocation of the Orders in Tynwald's request for the revocation of the Council made under the Wireless Telegraphy Order in Council relating to the Television Act 1949, and the Television Act 1954 Act 1954 because it "does not raise the relative to the Isle of Man." same difficulties."

On 19th June 1962 the Wireless Tele- At the meeting at the Home Office on graphy (I.O.M.) Bill was signed in Tynwald 13th April 1962 the Isle of Man delegations and was sent for the Royal Assent. On 10th complained that the International Telecom- July 1962 the member for Castletown, Mr. munication Convention (Geneva) of 1959 Colebourn, moved a resolution protesting at had been accepted by the U.K. Government the delay on the part of the U.K. Govern- on behalf of the Isle of Man Government ment in dealing with the resolutions of without consulting us. In attempting to Tynwald of 17th October 1961, 9th January explain this away the Home Office letter 1962, and 19th June 1962 and this was pointed out that "the 1959 Convention is carried without a division. one of a series which goes back to the year 1875. Each of these conventions has been A letter dated 7th August 1962, addres- ratified by the United Kingdom and has sed to the Lieutenant Governor was event- applied to the U.K., the Isle of Man and ually received from the Home Office. In this the Channel Islands as a single arca." letter Sir Charles Cunningham had stated that the deputation from Tynwald to the This makes it absolutely clear that so meeting on 13th April had explained that long as any station broadcasting from the they supported the plans of Manx Radio for a Isle of Man did not transmit outside this commercial sound broadcasting station that "single area" then there was no breach of would be received in the U.K. and parts of any international agreement, Western Europe and for a commercial television station that would serve part of The Island's delegation had argued that the United Kingdom. He then went on to if it had the right to decide whether or not say "Ministers have accordingly had to take to accept new international obligations, so it into account the wider considerations which had the right to contract out of existing these plans raise,. including their compati- obligations entered into without consultation. bility with the international obligations The United Kingdom representatives' reply

Standing Committee on Common Interests of I.O.M. and U.K. — Statement by Mr. Speaker on Manx Radio. T378 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

to this is very significant. "If this claim were Bevins, M.P.) had three objections to the conceded, they could still see no prospect Isle of Man proposals - of the fulfilment of Radio Manx's plans I. The conflict with the international owing to the absence of a suitable frequency." obligations of the U.K. Government He pointed out that Radio Stations on The Isle of Man's right to decide for medium and long waves were restric- itself on international obligations has been ted in their power output to maintain well established over the years, E.F.T.A. an efficient service solely within the and the Common Market agreements are territory with which they were con- two of the most significant matters of recent cerned. Radio Manx would transgress years. The statethent about the absence of this principle. And as regards an enquiry suitable frequencies proved to be inaccurate as to whether the U.K. Government as two frequencies 188m. and 232m. have observed these conditions he said that been made available to Manx Radio. (A broadly speaking they did but there look at the Spectrum chart issued by the would appear to be minor infractions European Broadcasting Union will show regarding external services of the B.B.C. that other Medium Wave Bands could be but excused these by saying the aims of used in the Isle of Man at a transmitting the B,B.C. external services were essen- strength which would cover the United King- tially political whereas those of Radio dom without interfering with stations already Manx were commercial. operating on those wave lengths). 2. There was a conflict between the On 19th September 1962 a delegation Isle of Man Government's proposals from the Isle of Man went to Home Office and the U.K. Government's Broad- to discuss their letter of 7th August and casting policy the U.K. Government's made it quite clear that we were displeased policy envisaged the B.B.C. having a with the contents which were unacceptable monopoly of sound radio. to the Manx people. The Manx delegation then made two proposals:— 3. It had been considered that no suitable wave length existed for the I. That the Manx Government should Manx Service, but he admitted this be, given power to licence a radio objection did not have the same force and television station to operate in as it had one previously. the Isle of Man at a strength suffic- ient to cover the single area compris- If we look at these objections we realise ing the U.K., the Isle of Man and how weak they are by broadcasting to the Channel Isles and that the Isle the "single area" no international agreement of Man Government should be was being breached — and the "minor in- empowered to make such stations fractions of the B.B.C. include broadcasting commercial if they so desire. on 232m. into Europe at a strength of 600kw when they were allocated. only 150kw for 2. That if at any time there is a change service within the "singl6 area". The broad- of policy in the United Kingdom, casting policy of the U.K. Government has the Isle of Man be permitted to share changed completely and they no longer in such development. envisage the B.B.C. having a monopoly of - sound radio and their third objection has The Postmaster General (Reginald been "out of court" for a long time now.

Standing Committee on Common Interests of .0.M. and U.K. —Statement by Mr. Speaker on Manx Radio. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973 T379

The Home Secretary (Henry Brook the Isle of Man during the next two years - M.P.) felt that there was a prima facie case a V.H.F. licence was issued in June 1964 - for a commercial sound or T.V. station in (Radio Caroline had arrived in Ramsey Bay the Isle of Man — the Postmaster General and started broadcasting on the medium had added that so long as the Wireless wave band) — a licence to transmit on 188m. Telegraphy Act of 1949 applied he could on medium wave was received in October not issue an overall licence to Radio Manx. 1964. Although far from satisfied with the The Manx deputation asked to be medium wave length and the power event- allowed to discuss the situation on their own ually offered to us —Pye Ltd., who had and afterwards altered their first proposal been invited to act as agents for Radio to read as follows:— Manx, agreed to go on the air subject to an assurance that the Post Office would "That the Manx Government should be explore the possibility of allocating a better given permission to license both radio wavelength—Tynwald approved the appoint- and T.V. stations to operate in the Isle ment of the concessionaire in November of Man at a strength sufficient to cover 1964— in October 1965 a further G.P.O. the Isle of Man and that as this licence- was received permitting the station limitation of strength would make to operate on 232m. during daylight hours broadcasting in the Island a domestic — these changes improved the coverage in affair, that the Isle of Man Govern- the South and West of the Island, but still ment should be permitted to make did not give satisfactory coverage of the such stations commercial ones if they North. Directional aerials were erected and so desired". came into operation in April 1966 which improved the signal strength but still left The Home Secretary agreed that U.K. certain areas including Ramsey inadequately Government would consider this proposal to covered. see how the institution of a domestic service could be worked out to give the result The Isle of Man Broadcasting Commis- desired by the Manx delegation. sion came into being in December 1965.

It was pointed out by a member of the In 1964 as a result of a General Election Manx delegation that the U.K. Government in the U.K. a Labour Government was policy was not unalterable and sought an elected and we had to start negotiating with assurance that if they changed their policy, new Ministers. the Isle of Man would be givdn priority to establish broadcasting coverage over the On 27th July 1965 Mr. George Thomas "single area". M.P., Parliamentary Under Secretary of State, Home Office, received a delegation The Postmaster General had replied that from the Isle of Man including the Lieuten- "a change of policy was extremely unlikely ant Governor. and he would go so far as to say it was out of the question for the next ten years". At this meeting the publicity value of (Events have proved him wrong — the policy Radio Caroline to the Isle of Man was has been changed.) pointed out and also the inadequacy of our own commercial station which was not Various inadequate offers were made to transmitting at sufficient power to cover the

Standing Committee on Common Interests of I.O.M. and U.K. — Statement by Mr. Speaker on Manx Radio. T380 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

whole Island, and in these circumstances it Man by Order in Council. was felt that Tynwald would not support a Bill to ban Radio Caroline. On 19th April 1967 Tynwald voted to petition Her Majesty the Queen re the Marine Mr. Lawrence (G.P.O.) after giving his etc. Broadcasting Offences Bill by 22 votes to interpretation of the conditions under which 8 against. On 5th June 1967 a deputation from a licence had been issued to Manx Radio Tynwald met a special Committee of the referred to the proposal to move the station Privy Council in connection with this to a more central position in the Island and Petition to the Queen and asked that Manx added that "this offered the strong prob- Radio should be given sufficient power to ability that the Post Office would be able adequately do part of what Radio Caroline to authorise an increase in transmitting was doing to advertise the Island and that power, with the expectation that there the U.K. Government had adequate power would be some increase in coverage attained available to them to allow an increase in by the service without infringing the over- the strength of Manx Radio without contra- riding requirements that it would not be vening any International Agreements. receivable in any regular and acceptable way on the mainland the objective test was This meeting was followed on the same that the field strength receivable anywhere day by a meeting between the Manx dele- within the U.K. should not exceed one half gation, the Minister of State, Home Office millivolt per metre. (Miss Alice Bacon), the Postmaster General (Mr. Edward Short) and the Director of The Manx delegation found this sug- Radio Services, Post Office (Mr. H. G. gestion inadequate. Mr. Thomas said the Lillicrap). At this meeting the Postmaster views of the delegation would be brought General said he was willing to consider to the attention of the Home Secretary. No granting a licence for an additional trans- further communication on the subject from mitter to Manx Radio but in such a way as the Home Office was received until over a to avoid spillage to the U.K. and would be year later on 29th July 1966 when we were prepared in the next week or so to consider informed that a Bill to ban Pirate Radio the purely technical espects of giving Manx Stations had been introduced into the U.K. Radio the ability to cover the whole of the Parliament and it was their intention to Isle of Man. Miss Bacon felt that the facts extend it to the Isle of Man. should be faced that the Isle of Man wanted Manx Radio to do more than cover the The seamen's strike in 1966 proved how Island but to do what Caroline was now useful Manx Radio could have been with doing i.e. broadcasting outside the island greater power. and asked the Postmaster General if that was completely outside the pale? The Executive Council asked to be allowed to introduce our own legislation on The Postmaster General pointed out the matter and this was done but was that commercial radio stations had been rejected by the House of Keys on 7th March denied to several towns in England and he 1967 on the second reading by 19 votes to would only look at the question of covering 3 with 2 members absent. On 11th April the Isle of Man and would be prepared to 1967 notification was received from the hold discussions on the technical aspects of Home Office that the U.K. Government the operation of Manx Radio — he also intended to extend their Bill to the Isle of confirmed that the operation of Manx Radio

Standing Committee on Common Interests of I.O.M. and U.K. — Statement by Mr. Speaker on Manx Radio. T3S TYNWALD COURT. FEBRUARY 20. 073

was mainly a matter of domestic policy and we asked that we should get a reply before the 6th July — the last meeting of Tynwald not international agreement. before the summer recess. As a result of the assurances a meeting was arranged on 20th June 1967 between The reply was dated the 12th July 1967 members of the Broadcasting Commission and was contained in a letter from the (Messrs. MacDonald, Kneale with Mr. Postmaster General to the Lieutenant Gov- Hulme as Secretary) and officials of the Post ernor Office chaired by Mr. North (Home Office) "As to the proposal that the power of —it was held at Post Office Headquarters. Manx Radio's medium wavelength The meeting almost ended in the first five transmissions should be increased, the minutes because the Post Office officials effect would be the introduction into tried to restrict the matters for discussion the U.K. of commercial radio on a con- and it was only on the intervention of Mr. siderable scale under the authority of North that the Manx delegation agreed to a licence granted by me. It was further stay and the discussion covered a wider explained that it was not the policy of field than at first dictated by the Post Office Her Majesty's Government to intro- officials. At this meeting the Manx represent- duce commercial radio; and they were atives asked Mr. Dilworth for his opinion as therefore bound to adhere to the to what strength of transmission would be policy of successive Governments that required to adequately cover the Island from the service of Manx Radio should not one transmitter Mr. Dilworth gave it as his be receivable on any regular basis on opinion that this might be achieved with the mainland". 5kw but he believed it would take 10kw to do the job adequately. He did, however, He turned down the application for an suggest that the best technical solution increase in power but suggested the allo- remained the provision of a low-powered cation of a longer medium wavelength relay station in the North of the Island - pointing out that his "advisers- technical an alternative to this would be a longer studies will take a little time", but as soon medium wavelength — the Post Office offered as they have any information they would to explore both possibilities if the Isle of convey it to the Broadcasting Commission. Man so desired. He of course apologised for not letting us have a reply by the 6th July and despite The Manx deputation ruled out the our asking for the consideration of a longer additional transmitter because of the expense medium wavelength we are still waiting for involved in maintaining transmitters in a reply nearly 5 years later. different parts of the Island and could see no purpose in this when a more adequate The request was contained in a letter solution could be otained by one transmitter from the Lieutenant Governor to the Post- centrally positioned and asked for a licence master General dated 26th July 1967. Lord to operate a 5kw transmitter — the Post Stonham came to the Isle of Man in Septem- Office officials undertook to convey our ber 1967. On 12th September 1967 Tynwald views to the Postmaster General but we came agreed to accept Lord Stonham's suggestion away from that meeting feeling we had been to set up a Joint Working Party. witnessing a diplomatic exercise of going through the motions of a meeting with us At the end of October 1967 the Gov- without any intention of altering the reply—eply— ernor received a reply from the Postmaster

Standing Committee on Common Interests of I.O.M. and U.K. — Statement by Mr. Speaker on Manx Radio. T382 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

General saying that he understood that the This action put the continuation of the subject of Manx Radio was raised in the constitutional talks into jeopardy. discussions with Lord Stonham and a Joint Working Party was to be set up and in these In November 1968, without warning, circumstances the Postmaster General sug- the U.K. Government decided unilaterally to gested it would be desirable to defer a reply hand over to a Royal Commission the ques- on this issue until the outcome of these tion of the future of relationships between further discussions were known. More the U.K. and the Island which was then the delaying tactics subject of bilateral discussions in the Joint Working Party and successfully created a further delay. A meeting of the Joint Working Party was held on 25th' March 1968 at which it The Tynwald Representatives of the was made quite clear to the Postmaster Joint Working Party presented their report General (Mr. Short) what we wanted for to Tynwald on 6th May 1969 after 18 Manx Radio — more power so that we months since they were set up — on Radio could be heard in the U.K. Mr. Short agreed they had achieved nothing the hopeful signs to examine sympathetically any detailed shown by Mr. Short were completely des- proposals that the Isle of Man put forward. troyed by Mr. Stonehouse — the 18 months Proposals were submitted but shortly after had been wasted. this Mr. Short was moved from the 'Post Office to the Department of Education and The names of the Royal Commission Roy Mason was appointed as Postmaster were eventually announced and they came to General in April— his tenure of office was the Island to take evidence in June 1970 - brief—only two months. and since then nothing more has been heard from or about them except that their Chair- A meeting of the Joint Working Party man, Lord Crowther has died. was held on Friday 13th September 1968 by which time Mr. John Stonehouse was Post- In June 1970 a Conservative Govern- master General and he declined to consider ment was elected in the U.K. and commercial any proposals for the future of Manx Radio radio became acceptable. A survey by which would enable it to be heard in any Marconi was carried out at the request of part of the U.K. and added that he would the Broadcasting Commission. not even have entertained any arrangements whereby the advertising revenue received by Manx Radio from Broadcasting to the U.K. On 22nd March 1971 the Broadcasting should accrue "in whole or in part" to the Commission had a meeting at the Home Manx Government. Office with officials of the Home Office and the Post Office.

The Manx representatives were really At this meeting Mr. Dilworth re-stated incensed by Mi-. Stonehouse's cavalier rejec- his belief that it would require a 10kw tion of the Island's claims despite assurances transmitter situated in the centre of the by Mr. Short that he would examine sym- Island to adequately cover the Island, but pathetically the Manx proposals which had said it was impossible to find a frequency been drafted to include suggestions made by on which Manx Radio could transmit at Mr. Short himself. 10kw.

Standing Committee on Common Interests of I.O.M. and U.K.—Statement by Mr. Speaker on Manx Radio. T383 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

What is wrong with 232m. — what communications to travel to the Isle of Man possible inteference to anyone can be and examine the practical considerations at created by us operating on 232m. at 10kw? first hand and as Manx Radio was already To suggest that we would interfere with losing money and equipment was obsolete Crowborough which is broadcasting into the review should be at an early date. On Europe contrary to International agreement, behalf of the Post Office it was said they on 232m. at a power of 600kw is ridiculous would be happy to send a team to the Island they in fact interfere with Manx Radio. as soon as possible but they were committed to urgent work and might not be available He gave as his opinion that the only until mid-June. They were pressed by Mr. practical method of providing adequate Witney to try and make it sooner. coverage in the Island while avoiding over- spill was to establish 2 repeater transmitters They did not arrive in the Island until at Douglas and Ramsey, in addition to the Raid-September and long before this the main Foxdale transmitter — His rough esti- situation with the transmitter had become mate of cost was between £8,000 — the desperate and it was essential to make an esimate we had for one transmitter was early decision to replace it. between £8,000 and £14,000 and Mr. Dilworth admitted, that site costs and amenity stand- Information had been received of an ards could increase the cost he had suggested. R.C.A. transmitter which could be varied between 1kw and 10kw and after waiting It will be noted that Mr. Dilworth had until the end of June for the U.K. Post altered his assessment since our 1967 meeting Office team to arrive an order was placed from one repeater transmitter to two — we for this machine. know from our own technical advisers that even two transmitters would not cover the The Post Office team, having carried out whole Island. It was stressed that at this their tests in the Island returned to the U.K. meeting the Manx Radio medium transmitter and we were informed in October that a was obsolete and just about worn out and copy of their report was on its way to us - that we could no longer get spares for it and but it must have gone a long way round it was therefore necessary to buy a new for it did not arrive until the 6th March transmitter at a very early date and we did 1972 less than 24 hours before we left to not want to buy a machine which would meet the Minister!! prove inadequate to provide a full coverage within the Island —that with our small An accident to one of the masts at listening population we were losing money Foxdale when a tractor cutting grass round and wanted to increase our listenership to about got caught up with the stay wires and make the station viable. pulled the mast out of position and because of the danger of it falling on the transmitter The Chairman of the meeting (Mr. K. P. building it had to be brought down and Witney of the Home Office) said because of a new mast erected, — delayed the instal- the areas of imcompatibility it would be lation of the transmitter but it was expected necessary to undertake a review of the to be in operation by 23rd October 1971. technical possibilities, together with their The engineer reported that the installation financial and other implications, and to was progressing faster than anticipated and he achieve this it was desirable for represent- would be ready to carry out tests on the atives of the Ministry of Posts and Tele- 17th October. A letter was sent to the Post

Standing Committee on Common Interests of I.O.M. and U.K. —Statement by Mr. Speaker on Manx Radio. T384 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

Office on 15th October, notifying them of Ministry asking for advice as to how the this almost as soon as the tests started transmitter could be tested at full power the transmitter "blew-up" —.after several without contravening the terms of the Broad- days of fiddling and adjusting it soon became casting Licence. evident that the engineer sent over by R.C.A. did not know much about the transmitter A letter was received, dated 14th Dec- so we asked that he be recalled and a ember 1971, from the Ministry of Posts and competent person sent over — another en- Telecommunications and signed by Mr. R. A. gineer arrived and he was able to sort out Dilworth in which he dodged answering some of the problems but some parts of the the vital question as to how the transmitter transmitter had been damaged and had to be could be tested at full power by again replaced from the States — In the meantime recommending a "dummy load" and saying a letter dated 20th October 1971 was received it was not necessary for an aerial system to from the Ministry of the Posts and Telecom- be tested at a power greater than will be munications saying it was a breach of the employed under normal operating conditions. terms of the licence to test beyond the permitted power and the transmitter could This was disputed by our own technical be tested at full power using a dummy load, advisers who advocated that the transmitter must be tested into the aerial system at full Our own egineer advised they would not strength before they would accept delivery. be prepared to accept the transmitter until it had been fully proven into the aerial Following the General Election a new system pointing out that this was normal Broadcasting Commission was appointed, the procedure. only new member being the Chairman, Mr. W. E. Quayle. Mr. Dilworth's letter was The House of Keys was dissolved on considered at their first meeting on 28th 21st October 1971 in readiness for the December 1971 and it was decided to ask General Election on the 18th and 19th Mr. Dilworth to amplify on his advice on November and because of a slip up in the testing and also to ask what had happened to Broadcasting Act the Tynwald members the report on the survey that we had been (Messrs. Crellin and Kneale) ceased to be promised several months previous A letter members of the Broadcasting Commission. was sent to him on 30th December 1971.

In a letter to the Chairman of the Com- A "dummy load" was brought to the mission dated 10th October the Lieutenant Island by an R.C.A. engineer and he began Governor asked that no further tests should tests with it but faults developed in the be carried out without first consulting Ex- "dummy load" and he was unable to get the ecutive Council on the 19th November a transmitter working satisfactorily. On the 7th letter was sent to the Government Secretary January 1972 a new engineer arrived from stating the position and asking for the advice U.S.A. and he soon located the faults in the of His Excellency in Executive Council — a transmitter and by the 20th January he had reply was received dated 23rd November the transmitter in working order and ready 1971 stating that His Excellency hoped that for transmitting and was anxious to do this the Commission would accept advice from and return to the States. No reply had been the Ministry of Posts and Telecommnica- received from the Ministry of Posts and dons as offered in their letter of 20th Telecommunications up to this date and October 1971 and a letter was sent to the because of the trouble we had had with the

Standing Committee on Common Interests of I.O.M. and U.K. — Statement by Mr. Speaker on Manx Radio. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973 T385

transmitter and "dummy load" and on the of the Isle of Man" as stated, was received advice of the American engineer coupled on the 6th March 1972 and a copy is with that of our own engineers it was. attached at Appendix A. decided not to wait any longer but to start test broadcasts and these were carried out Points put forward by the Ministry of during the next week until we were instructed Posts and Telecommunications in forwarding by the Lieutenant Governor to stop broad- it were:— casting above Ikw — this has been done but we still believe that tests should continue at " 1. By using two additional low-power all strengths. relay stations in 1594kHz (188m.) daytime coverage would be improved One effect of our transmissions was that so as to surpass that provided at we got a reply from Mr. Dilworth dated present on I295kHz (232m.) alone 28th January 1972 — the day we got told and the coverage can also be in- to get back to our old strength through the creased to 70 per cent. by night, with, Home Office he repeated his advice re in both instances, a significant im- "dummy loads" but did concede there was provement in the coverage of the a risk of breakdown at high power, which northern part of the Island, including low power tests would not disclose. By this Ramsey. time we knew only too well of these risks from hard experience. 2. Coverage of the Island on the lines proposed would be as good as that He also expressed surprise to learn we achieved by the B.B.C. on medium had not received a report on the survey frequency in the United Kingdom as carried out in September 1971 and assured a whole for national services and us it had left him for onward transmission considerably better than the Minis- to us via Home Office. Despite many requests try's expectations for local broad- both to the Ministry of Posts and Telecom- casting service on MF. munications and the Home Office we finally learned on Thursday, 17th February 1972, 3. During the hours of darkness, cover- that it was at the Home Office but they age would be superior to that were not satisfied with it and had taken achieved by a single 10 kilowatt certain points up with the Ministry — up to transmitter. today, 28th February 1972 no report has been received. (Finally received 6th March 4. The Ministry have not attempted to 1972— see page 11). estimate the cost of their proposals, in view of what was said by the All this convinces us we made the right Island representatives at the meeting decision in testing the new transmitter and we in March 1971 on the subject of the now know that Mr. Dilworth's estimate that cost of sites and buildings on the it would take a 10kw transmitter to ade- Island ; but they point out that the quately cover the Isle of Man was a correct additional revenue-raising capacity of one. the station would help to offset the expense of the additional installation. 1. The Post Office report on the survey mentioned in Part I carried out in September 5. As was indicated at the meeting in 1971, entitled "Medium Frequency Survey March, the proposals observe the

Standing Committee on Common Interests of .0.M. and U.K. Statement by Mr. Speaker on Manx Radio. T386 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

necessity to avoid increasing the be used for a mast and programme overspill into the United Kingdom. feed to the Ramsey transmitter, then The Ministry point out that overspill every time the Snaefell transmitter would increase sharply at powers was off the air, as it often is in only marginally above that autho- winter due to stormy conditions, then rised by licence, the field strength at the Ramsey transmitter would also the point of reception, in millivolts per be off the air. To even contemplate metre, being directly proportional to basing the northern reception system the square-root of transmitter power. on such an unsatisfactory idea would During the recent breach of the be irresponsible. licence there was strong and unac- ceptable reception in the Liverpool- 5. It is probable that this scheme would Manchester area". give a better night service than a single 10kw transmitter but what is 2. It is accepted that the report cannot the use of it if the majority of be disputed on any major point, as an receivers cannot get it. In any case egineering assessment based on measure- we are not really deeply interested in ments recently taken, but there are some 1594 kcs (188m.) for any purpose important aspects of the problem which they beyond the religious broadcasts and have ignored altogether. In reply to the if a listener is sufficiently intersted in points put forward in paragraph 2 by the these for it to be a "must" to hear Ministry, we consider:— them then a VHF receiver is the solution.

1. Not very many medium-wave sets 3. Discussion took place on 8th March tune down to 188m. (1594 Kcs). 1972 between the Minister and the Com- mission — present being — 2. The cross-hatched area on the map is the area where reception would be The Minister Mr. W. E. Quayle, M.L.C. virtually nil at any time and it should Mr. Lawrence Mr. G. V. H. Kneale, be realised about 5,000 people live in Mr. Meyer M.H.K. this area and would probably be more Mr. Ellis Mr. F. Luckman, B.Sc. extensive than shown. There would Miss E. C. Christian, also be an area somewhere in Douglas M.B.E., L.R.A.M. region where the same nil reception Mr. P. Hulme would apply due to interference between the Douglas and Foxdale (Copies of notes by both sides are attached transmitters. Just where this would at Appendix B) occur would depend on the siting of the Douglas transmitter. One of the main points of the discussion was the problem of spillover into the U.K. 3. We would have to buy four trans- should Manx Radio broadcast on increased mitters, two aerials and two diplexers, power and the Minister suggested that the suitable command equipment and two answer might be for the Isle of Man to be sites. served by a station working under the auspices of the proposed I.B.A. network with 4. If as suggested, Snaefell VHF was to places on the Local Advisory Committee.

Standing Committee on Common Interests of I.O.M. and U.K. — Statement by Mr. Speaker on Manx Radio. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973 T387

The Chairman of the I.B.A., Lord Aylestone in breach of their Licence it having been has been asked for his comments on the reported that the agreed aerial system was feasibility of this suggestion; it being posed not being used. The General Manager of that Manx Radio be the LB.A. station Manx Radio reported on the matter as serving the Isle of Man/Liverpool/Blackpool follows:— area, with studios and a transmitter in the Isle of Man. It must be stressed that this is tt Reference to your enquiry as to why merely one more avenue being explored and Manx Radio is at the moment should not detract from the main aim of operating on an omnidirectional increased power for the present system. pattern as opposed to a directional pattern inherent in our licence. Over The outcome of the discussion was that recent weeks faults have arisen on the the request for increased power was denied new R.C.A. transmitter. This was not as any proposal to broadcast at 10kw or even unexpected due to our being unable 5kw as had been suggested was unacceptable. to properly test the equipment. It It is apparent that whilst over the long will be remembered that although the history varying and disagreeing reasons have manufacturers required at least a been used to deny increased power and thirty-day continuous test, we were viability to Manx Radio, underlying it all restricted by political reasons, to has been the blank refusal to allow such a some two or three days only. The condition, whilst powerful lobbies have present fault has been caused by the been at work elsewhere. breakdown of a time delay relay which has the effect of causing inter- 4. The provision of low power relay mittent breakdown of programme. In stations with ancillary equipment has been order to maintain the programme investigated and is estimated to cost £33,600. service it is necessary to have the new (A copy of the Estimate is attached at R.C.A. transmitter and the old stand- Appendix C.) It must be pointed out that by Pye transmitter on separate masts these stations would only significantly so that programmes can be switched improve reception on 188 metres and the immediately on faults occurring. Minister gave his personal assurance that Were this not so, a delay of some Manx Radio would continue to enjoy the two hours would result in re-setting use of 232 metres, on which reception would up the standby transmitter. It is only be marginally improved indeed in some obvious that a commercial station areas reception could be worse due to inter- running in a very border-line con- ference between transmitters. In any event dition financially cannot afford to we consider that in such circumstances this lose the advertising revenue which expenditure could not be justified or borne would be lost with the loss of broad- in the present financial situation, some casting time. The replacement time £23,000 having been committed on a new delay relay is on order from the transmitter which is having continuous if U.S.A. and will be fitted when it is intermittent teething trouble through inade- received at which time the station quate testing. (See Appendix D.) On the 24th will return to its permitted directional March 1972 the Commission was notified by aerial pattern." the Government Secretary of a communi- cation from the Home Office to His Excel- The Chairman of the Commission dis- lency in that Manx Radio were operating cussed the matter with His Excellency in

Standing Committee on Common Interests of I.O.M. and U.K. — Statement by Mr. Sneaker on Manx Radio. T388 TYNWALD . COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

Executive Council on the 30th March 1972 Appendix 1 Analysis of tape recordings when it was agreed that a written under- made of Manx Radio. taking be given that the directional aerial has been brought back into use and that omnidirectional transmissions have ceased and will not be resumed. Such undertaking- Note. Not reproduced here — [Attached has been given. Drawings.

5. Leaving aside the problems created by Fig. 1. Variation of field strength with these technical "breaches of the licence", the distance from Douglas transmitter Commission wishes to reiterate that the main on 1587 kHz. aim is still to obtain increased power for Manx Radio so that adequate coverage, as Fig. 2. Variation of field strength with far as is possible, of the whole Island is distance from Foxdalc transmitter obtained and therefore respectfully requests on 1295 kHz. the Standing Committee to further pursue this aim by all means at its disposal. Fig. 3. Map showing field strengths from Foxdale on 1295 and 1594 kHz. RTD1.1.1 Memorandum No. 19 Fig. 4. Plan for the improvement of Manx Radio coverage on 2596 kHz.] APPENDIX A

MEDIUM FREQUENCY SURVEY OF THE ISLE OF MAN 1971 MEDIUM FREQUENCY SURVEY OF THE ISLE OF MAN. Contents Summary. Summary During the period 13 - 18 September 1971, 1. Introduction. a visit was made to the Isle of Man by a small team of 1PT engineers to carry out a 2. Propagation measurements in Douglas. medium frequency propagation survey of the island with the view to recommending 3. Propagation measurements in Ramsey. possible ways of improving the coverage of Manx Radio within the island. It is shown 4. Measurement of Foxdale transmissions. that during the day the existing coverage of 1295 kHz is good in the southern part of the 5. Estimate of ground conductivity. island and poor in the north and during the evening after the closedown of 1295kHz the 6. Assessment of present coverage of Manx coverage of 1594 kHz is severly limited Radio. giving a very low standard of reception in Douglas and no service in Ramsey. The 7. Plan to improve existing coverage of propagation measurements have shown that Manx Radio. the ground conductivity is poor being in the region of 2 x 10-3 mhoirn. Tape recordings 8. Conclusions. were made of Manx Radio on 1295 and

Standing Committee on Common Interests of I.O.M. and U.K. — Statement by Mr. Sneaker on Manx Radio. TYNWALD COURT. FEBRUARY 20, 1973 T389

1594 kHz at various times during the day (NOR SC 372770) was found in Douglas and evening at different locations to illustrate where a temporary 45 ft. transmitting aerial the standard of reception. A plan proposing was erected. This site had the advantage of low power transmitters for Douglas and being fairly low lying on good soil on the Ramsey to support the existing transmissions banks of the river Glass about 1•S km from and giving good day and night time coverage the sea front and about 2 km from Douglas has been formulated as a result of the survey. Head. The energy to feed the aerial was derived from a low power linear amplifier and signal generator, the e.r.p. of this 1. Introduction. arrangement was of the order of 0.25 watt. Using a frequency of 15711 KHz, field The Isle of Man is permitted to broadcast strength measurements were made at I, 2, on 1295 KHz during the day from a direc- tional aerial located in Foxdale with a 3. 5 and 10 km from the transmitting aerial transmitter power of 1kW with a restriction in four directions. From these measurements a curve giving the variation of field strength of 200 watts towards the Lancashire coast with distance was produced so that a com- and Northern Ireland. Unfortunately just parison could be made with published CCIR prior to the visit one of the aerial masts forming the directional array collapsed due to ground wave propagation curves. Fig. 1 an accident involving a tractor and transmis- shows the results of these measurements and it will be seen that a smooth curve can be sions were being radiated on a temporary basis, from the remaining mast at full power drawn through the points. This result is used giving an omnidirectional hrp. This has in Table I to estimate the ground conductivity resulted in an increase in field strength in of the terrain over which the measurements the Douglas and Peel areas; the extent of were made. the increase is estimated to be between 6 3. Propagation measurements at Ramsey. and 7 dB based on a comparison between the theoretical h.r.p.s. of an omnidirectional The site chosen for the transmitting aerial aerial and a direction aerial of the type used was similar in character to the Douglas site at Foxdale. Field strength in the North/South •(NOR SC 448948). The method of measure- directions are estimated to be about 3 dB less ment and treatment of results are the same with an omnidirectional aerial. Field strength as for the Douglas tests. measurements of this omnidirectional trans- missions are shown in Fig. 3. In addition to 4. Measurements of Foxdale transmissions. these measurements, propagation tests were carried out in Douglas and Ramsey using a Measurements were made at various loca- temporary MPT transmitting aerial to deter- tions on the island from this transmission mine the attenuation of the signal with Fig. 3 shows an outline map giving field distance in these areas. strengths of 1295 and 1594 KHz. In addition to these measurements it was decided to The results of these tests are used to produce carry out further measurements of the a plan for improving the coverage of Manx Foxdale transmitter at distances of 1, 2, 4 Radio using low power transmitters in and 7 km. These measurements augment Douglas and Ramsey operating on 1594 kHz.. those that were carried out in Douglas and Ramsey and provide information about the 2. Propagation measurements in Douglas. ground conductivity of a larger area of the island. The results of these measurements For these measurements a convenient site •are shown in Fig. 2.

Standing Committee on Common Interests of I.O.M. and U.K. — Statement by Mr. Speaker on Manx Radio. T390 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

5. Estimate of Ground Conductivity. areas of Douglas and Peel on 1295 kHz were abnormally high (approx. 6 dB) however Since the variation of field strength depends changes elsewhere on the island are expected on ground conductivity the rate of change to be less than this i.e. between 0 - 3 dB. of measured field strength with distance is These estimates are based on comparisons compared with published CCIR curves. between the theoretical patterns of a direc- Table 1 shows these comparisons. tional and non directional aerial at Foxdale.

Table 1. Most of the island is provided with a good service during the day except Ramsey and Measured change in (field strength the northern part of the island where the from 1 to 10 km field strength is generally less than 54 dB mV/in and reception is marred by receiver dB and ambient noise. In locations where the field strength is less than 1 mV/m back- Using HPT Aerial Foxdale ground noise is audible. At the close down in Douglas Transmitter of Manx Radio on 1295 kHz the transmis- sion continues on 1594 kHz but interference 34.5 34.5 free reception during the hours of darkness on this frequency reaches only about 15 per Change in field strength from cent, . of the population. The night-time 1 to 10 km obtained from CCIR service area of this transmission is shown in propagation curves Fig. 3. In Douglas for instance reception is dB poor with a wanted to unwanted signal ratio of 18 dB. Reception in Ramsey is impossible, conductivity ronductivity the wanted to unwanted signal ratio being of the order of OdB. This situation is due to = 3 x 10-3 mho/m = 10-3 mhofin high levels of continental interference on 1594 kHz, the predicted midnight median 31 38 value of which is now 53 d13 tiV/rn, an increase on the value existing when the Table I shows that the ground conductivity 1.0.M. service commence transmission on in and around Douglas is in the region of 1594 kHz. Appendix I gives an analysis of 2 x 10-3 mholm, Further measurements made tape recordings made of Manx Radio under of the Foxdale transmissions reveal that this various conditions using a portable transistor figure is applicable for most of the island radio receiver. These demonstrate the stan- except Ramsey and the northern part of the dards of reception at various locations on island where the ground conductivity is very the island. nearly 10-2 mho/m. 7. Plan to improve the existing coverage of Manx Radio. 6. Assessment of present coverage of Manx Radio. This plan is for the establishment of low power stations in Douglas and Ramsey Because the transmitter at Foxdale was operating in. synchronism with the existing radiating in an omnidirectional instead of a 1594 kHz transmission at Foxdale. It is esti- directional mode the field strength in the mated that these low power stations (50 watt

Standing Committee on Common Interests of .0.M. and U.K.— Statement by Mr. Speaker on Manx Radio. T391 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

for Douglas, 20 watt for Ramsey) would field strength is 0.65 mVJm which is an increase the coverage of Manx Radio during adequate signal for a programme feed. the hours of darkness from less than 15 per cent. to 20 per cent. of the poupulation. This 7. (3) Coverage Statistics. represents a worthwhile improvement par- ticularly in the winter months when the 1295 The estimated coverage figures with and kHz (232m.) transmission closes down early without the proposed improvements are in evening i.e. between 1630 and 1700 hours given below. BST. This improvement would be even more apparent when B.S.T. ceases on the 31st Estimated existing population coverage October 1971 and Manx Radio will effec- of 1295 kHz (232m.) by day 80% tively lose one hour of broadcasting in the evening on 1295 kHz. Estimated existing population coverage of 1594 kHz (188m.) by day 70% The plan has been formulated using the data obtained from the survey and is shown Estimated existing population coverage in Fig. 4. It is similar to the plan previously of 1594 kHz (188m.) at night 10 - 15% put forward by this Ministry earlier in the year and it differs only in respect of the Estimated daytime coverage of 1594 kHz precise coverage contours. (188m) with booster stations in Douglas and Ramsey 80% 7. (I) Coverage. Estimated daytime coverage of existing Figure 4 shows the coverage of the 1594 kHz 1295 kHz (232m.) and 1594 kHz transmission from Foxdale together with the (188m.) with booster stations in coverage expected from a 50 watt station in Douglas and Ramsey 100% Douglas and a 20 watt station in Ramsey. To ensure maximum protection against Estimated coverage during the hours of continental interference after dark it is darkness on 1594 kHz (188m.) with necessary to locate the transmitters as close booster stations 70% as possible to the population centres so that the area to be covered is enclosed by the 14mV/m contour where the wanted signal 8. Conclusions. exceeds the unwanted night-time signal by 30 dB. The low power station in Ramsey This survey of the Isle of Man confirms the would also provide a daytime service in the poor service provided by 1594 kHz (188m.) northern part of the island which at present transmission from Foxdale during the hours is not very well served by 1295 kHz. of darkness. The 1295 kHz (232m.) trans- mission during the day provides a satisfac- 7. (2) The provision of programme feeds tory service for most of the island except for the Douglas transmitter presents no that the north including the town of Ramsey difficulty; for Ramsey the programme feed is not adequately served. could be derived from the VHF Band II transmission on 89.0 MHz from Snaefell. It is estimated that 80 per cent. of the popu- The field of strength of this transmission is lation are able to receive this transmission very low in the centre of Ramsey (100 uVfm) to a satisfactory standard. A plan (see Fig. 4) but in the northern part of the town the to improve the existing coverage of the

Standing Committee on Common Interests of I.O.M. and U.K.—Statement by Mr. Speaker on Manx Radio. T392 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

island making more efficient use of 1594 kHz at 10 kW at Foxdale for a night-time service, has been produced. This plan proposes the the signal level would barely override the establishment of a 50 watt transmitter in interference from continental stations in the Douglas and a 20 watt transmitter in Ramsey Douglas area and would be substantially to bring coverage up to nearly 100 per cent. worse in the other populated parts. by day and 70 per cent. by night. The recent broadcasts by Radio Manx FWG W. GODDARD using power greatly exceeding that autho- rised, showed, all too clearly, that signal APPENDIX TO RTD 1.1.1. MEMORAN- levels on the mainland were three to four DUM No.19. times higher than had been recorded when the system complied with the conditions of THE EFFECT OF TRANSMITTING AT the licence, representing an increase in HIGHER THAN THE AUTHORISED effective radiated power of more than ten POWER FROM A SINGLE TRANS- times. Signals of this strength are similar to MITTER. those available on the seafront at Douglas when the transmitter is working within the Section 6 and Figure 3 of the report licensed conditions. show that when using 1295 kHz with an omni-directional aerial and 1 kW transmitter ISLE OF MAN. BROADCASTING power at Foxdale, only Ramsey and the COMMISSION northern part of the Island would be inade- quately served. The situation with 1594 kHz NOTE of a meeting with the Minister of is slightly worse, but might be considered Posts and Telecommunications on acceptable by day in most of the Island. Had 8th March, 1972. a directional aerial been used radiating 2 kW towards ihe NW the signal level in Ramsey and the North would have been slightly greater. and that in the Douglas and Peel PRESENT Mr. Quayle. sectors noticeably lower. These tests also The Minister. Mr. Kneale. proved the validity of the statement, made Mr. Lawrence. Mr. Luckman. many years ago, that a single 10kW trans- Mr. Meyer. Miss Christian. mitter could provide the whole island with Mr. Ellis. Mr. Hulme. a good service by day. Calculations and measurements, however, have shown that radiated power from Foxdale, in excess of about 200 W on 1295 kHz directions Mr. Quayle presented the Commission's towards the south-cast and north-west, will paper on Manx Radio and referred to the provide a service on the Lancashire coast delay in providing the Ministry's technical and northern Ireland and for this reason report which had been received by the cannot be permitted. Commission on 6th March 1972- The Minister regretted the delay and that the After dark only the frequency 1594 kHz report did not provide any major recom- is available for Manx Radio; this is an mendations not already contained in the International Common Wave and cannot be minutes of the March 1971 meeting. used at any time with a power exceeding 2 kW. Moreover, even if it could be used Mr. Kneale considered that the report

Standing Committee on Common Interests of I.O.M. and U.K. — Statement by Mr. Speaker on Manx Radio. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973 T393

was designed to persuade Manx Radio to looking for a medium wave length further abandon 232 metres in favour of 188 metres up the scale. and that the predicted coverage by day and by night was very optimistic. The Ministry's The Minister felt that there was little report was misleading as it overlooked hope of providing another medium wave several factors. It did however prove points frequency and suggested that there was little the Isle of Man had been stressing for benefit to be derived from a review of several years (1) that the coverage provided earlier negotiations with former Postmasters by 232m, during the day is reasonably good General. The question for discussion was in the South of the Island and very poor in how Manx Radio can cover the Island Ramsey and the North and in some areas adequately on 188 metres and 232 metres non-existent (2) that reception on 188m_ is whilst complying in all respects with the of a very low standard in Douglas and non- existing licence. existent in Ramsey and (3) that the ground conductivity in the Island is poor. It also Mr. Kneale referred to 188 metres being contradicted what Ministry officials had been used by many foreign stations which produce saying continually and put into writing in considerable interference. The Minister their report dated 19th March 1971 that promised to take up this matter with the "During daylight 1295 kHz is also radiated I.T.U. if the Isle of Man representatives from Foxdale using a directional aerial and could provide information of any specific provides a satisfactory service to the whole stations broadcasting on 188 metres causing Island" . This is not so. The Minister asked interference. Mr. Kneale said he did not whether further consideration had been know the specific stations but they could given to the provision of relay stations to start with the four continental stations improve reception throughout 1112 Island. mentioned by the Ministry in their report of Mr. Kneale said the suggestion to use the March 1971. V.H.F. transmitter on Snaefell as the pro- gramme feed for Ramsey overlooked the Mr. Kneale referred to the extension of point that because of its exposed position this night time coverage which Manx Radio used transmitter was often off the air and during for religious programmes at a time when falls of snow can be inaccessible to the main- the T.V. broadcasts made radio time difficult tenance engineers. To base a system on such to sell. The Minister acknowledged that night a weak link would be foolish. There would time coverage on the medium wave was very be interference between the main transmitter low but that this could be raised if the at Foxdale and the new Douglas transmitter Minister's technical report was accepted. The which would create a blank area where no predicted 70 per cent, coverage would be signal would be received. greater than the night time coverage of I.B.A. stations (expected to be about 30 per cent.) while B.B.C. Radio I had only about 50 per The Minister gave an assurance that the cent. coverage after dark. Mr. Kneale said Ministry had no wish to withdraw 232 that extension of hours after dark would be of metres from Manx Radio or to vary the value from midnight when T.V. had finished existing licence in any way in this respect. but if daytime broadcasting on 232 metres Mr. Kneale welcomed this assurance as could run from sunrise to sunset it would portable transistors do not normally tune provide two additional hours during the day. down to 188 metres and enquired whether the The Minister regretted that this would not Ministry had made any other progress in be possible as it would interfere with the

Standing Committee on Common Interests of I.O.M. and U.K. —Statement by Mr. Sneaker on Manx Radio. S

T394 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

B.B.C.'s external service on 232 metres and 5 or 10kw transmitter which was the only there would be interference in the other way of providing satisfactory coverage in direction as well. the Island without expensive additional equipment.Mr. Lawrence said that it was the Mr. Kneale said that the Commission's Isle of Man that had asked for sufficient estimate of costs of providing relays was in power to cover the Isle of Man and the the region of £14,000 each and that in fact Post Office had agreed but Mr. Kneale four syncronised transmitters would be reminded him that the I.O.M. delegates had necessary to cover the Island properly. The also added that if there was a change in Minister enquired whether firm tenders had policy in the U.K. then the I,O.M. should been obtained for the provision of these be included in the change. The Minister relays. Mr. Kneale said that the figures were enquired whether it was because of Manx purely estimates as Manx Radio would not Radio's delicate financial position that the in any case be able to afford the additional Commission wished to attract a wider expense, having already bought a new trans- audience in the U.K. in order to improve mitter at a cost of £23,000 when spares were advertising revenue. no longer available for the existing trans- mitter. Mr. Quayle said that Manx Radio The Minister enquired whether , the could just break even if it could cover the Commission still accepted the principle of whole of the Island but this would only "no overspill" to the U.K. Mr. Kneale said cover running costs and not capital costs. this was now in doubt in view of the change It would be necessary to have a small U.K. of the U.K. Government Policy on com- audience to cover capital costs. The Minister mercial radio. The Minister replied that the said that unavoidable spillover might be change of policy in the U.K. did not alter acceptable provided it was not a deliberate the constitutional position as broadcasts broadcast to the U.K. Mr. Quayle asked from Manx Radio were not subject to wouldn't I.B.A. stations in the U.K. over- control by an authority answerable to Parl- spill into the Isle of Man. The Minister iament as regards programme content. For would endeavour to ensure that I.B.A. this reason there could be no change under stations did not overspill into the Isle of the present licensing arrangements by Man but there were many technical problems which Manx Radio could broadcast to part to be solved to guarantee that coastal stations of the U.K. as well as the Isle of Man. in the U.K. would not be heard in the Isle Mr. Quayle asked whether the Minister was of Man. Mr. Kneale queried th,e strength of suggesting that his appointed advisory Com- the proposed I.B.A. transmitter for Liverpool mittes were more responsible bodies than and asked if it was going to be a 5kw. If so Tynwald Her Majesty's Government in how were the Ministry going to stop con- the Isle of Man? The Minister considered siderable overspill into the Isle of Man. that he was offended by this remark and Mr. Lawrence said they could stop it and went on to say that the approval of a Mr. Kneale asked how it could be done one commercial station for the Isle of Man had way and not the other. The Minister accepted been giv6n in the first place on condition that the Commission's point that if overspill from the service was confined to the Island and this the Isle of Man into the U.K. was not position had not altered over the years. acceptable the reverse should also apply. He Mr. Kneale said that it was inevitable that added however that overspill into the Isle of some overspill would result from the use of a Man would only interfere with a maximum of

Standing Committee on Common Interests of I.O.M. and U.K: — Statement by Mr. Speaker on Manx Radio. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973 T395

55,000 people while overspill into the U.K. Present : Mr. W. E. Quayle. could interfere with millions. Mr. Kneale The Minister. Mr. G. V. H. Kneale. queried if because we were so small the Mr. Lawrence. Mr. F. Luckman, B.Sc. Minister was considering us insignificant and Mr. Meyer. Miss E. M. Christian, anyway interference would only occur if we Mr. Ellis. M.B.E., L.R.A.M. were all broadcasting on same wave length Mr. P. Hulme. and he couldn't imagine that happening. The Minister suggested that the alternative 1. Mr. Quayle said that as the Minister might be for the Isle of Man to come under would have gathered from the Commission's the proposed I.B.A. network. It would be paper on Manx Radio they had been messed possible under the Sound Broadcasting Bill about for years. The Ministry technical team's for Manx Radio to be an I.B.A. station report had been delayed considerably, but covering say Isle of Man/Blackpool/Liver- it had now been made available and the pool and controlled by the I.B.A. with the Commission would like to discuss its recom- Island having places on the Advisory Com- mendations. The Minister apologised for the mittee. The Bill could be extended to the delays which were due to the Ministry having Isle of Man by Order in Council. been under considerable pressure for the past 18 months. However, the report did Miss Christian enquired whether Manx not say much more than was known in Radio station could remain in the Isle of March 1971 when the last meeting took Man under this arrangement. The Minister place. replied that it would probably be necessary to have studios in the largest populated 2. Mr. Kneale said that the report was areas within the stations broadcasting area very misleading. He suspected that the Min- in the U.K. but there could be programmes istry were trying to force Manx Radio to produced in the Island exclusively for Manx abandon 232m. Also it was misleading to audiences. If the Commission were convinced say that, given the implementation of the that Manx Radio could not be viable in the measures proposed, the coverage of 100 per Isle of Man alone, even with relay stations cent. by day and 70 per cent, by night to improve coverage, this seemed to be the estimated in the report would result. There only alternative. He reiterated that if there were many areas on the Island which at was any increase in power even to 5kw it present had little or no coverage. would be contrary to U.K. policy on recep- tion in the U.K. He regretted that he could 3. The Minister said that as he understood not authorise Manx Radio to broadcast at it, in March last year the Ministry experts any higher power. had said that the desired wider coverage could be achieved by setting up two relay Mr. Quayle said that it would be neces- stations. Did the Commission agree with sary for him to report to Tynwald and would this? Mr. Kneale replied that surveys he had be glad to have a record of the meeting if made convinced him that this was not possible within a week. enough. The report had overlooked several factors. For example, the Snaefell VHF APPENDIX B (Cont'd) transmitter was frequently off the air due to snow which made it impossible for main- NOTE OF A MEETING WITH THE ISLE tenance people to reach it. Also there was OF MAN BROADCASTING COMMIS- interference- between the main Foxdate SION ON 8th MARCH,1972. transmitter and the syncronised Douglas

Standing Committee on Common Interests of I.O.M. and U.K. — Statement by Mr. Speaker on Manx Radio. T396 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973 transmitter. There was a general feeling that 70 per cent, would be much higher than the Manx Radio was being pushed on to 188m. MF night-time coverage of IBA stations The Minister said that there was no plan to (about 25 - 30 per cent.). withdraw 1295 kHz and he could give a personal assurance that the terms of the 6. Mr. Kneale said that most people did licence would not be varied in this respect. not listen in the evening and for that reason it was a commercially blank area at that 4. Mr. Kneale said that 188 m. was ex- time. It was used to put on religious pro- tremely unsatisfactory. It did not appear on grammes which brought in a little revenue. the majority of MF sets because it was on The Minister asked if this meant that the the edge of the spectrum. Mr. Lawrence Commission were not interested in coverage said that it was because of the limitation of after dark. Mr. Kneale said that the only 188m. that 232m, had been provided as time after dark that would be of any use support. Mr. Kneale continued that it had would be from midnight onwards, but the been promised that the Minister would look Commission would be intersted in extending into the possibility of another MF frequency day-time broadcasting on 232m. to start at further up the spectrum. The request' for sunrise and end at sunset. The Minister this had come from the Lt. Governor in a replied that this would be impossible due letter to the then PMG. The Minister said to the changes in MF characteristics which that he could not comment on what PMG's took place one hour after sunrise and one would have wished to do in the past. The hour before sunset (the present limits on principal concern now was to ensure that hour). If the present timing was not observed good coverage was obtained on the frequen- the Isle of Man would interfere with the cies at present allocated. He could not hold external service on 232m. and vice versa. out any hope of another MF frequency and he would prefer to discuss how coverage 7. Mr. Kneale said that the costing in the could be improved whilst sticking to powers technical report of £8,000 for two satellite of transmission laid down in the licence. stations was wrong. Due to amenity and other factors one station would, he esti- 5. Mr. Kneale said that 188m. was an mated, cost £14,000. He considered that four International Common Frequency. Not all satellite stations would be necessary to other countries broadcast on low power so achieve the coverage required. The Minister the interference was often very great.The asked how the discrepancy in the estimate Minister replied that this did not mean that of the cost of satellites could be resolved. there should be a free-for-all. If it was Had it been put out to tender or any known what specific stations were causing company asked for an estimate? Mr. Kneale the interference the matter could be taken replied that this had been done; Manx up with the ITU and complaints lodged. Radio would not be able to afford the Did the Commission have any specific expense. They had had to buy a new trans- instances? Mr. Kneale said that he had no mitter — which had cost £23,000 — because specific information but he knew that there the previous one was, for practical purposes, were foreign stations adjacent to 188m. The beyond repair. Minister recognised that the level of MF night-time coverage achieved, as little as 8. The Minister asked if the Commission 15 per cent, was poor. But the technical accepted the principle that their broadcasts report said it could be raised to 70 per cent. should be confined to the Island and not if the recommendations were implemented. encroach on the mainland. Mr. Kneale said

Standing Committee on Common Interests of I.O.M. and U.K. — Statement by Mr. Speaker - on Manx Radio. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973 T397

this was certainly not accepted. The Minister that he accepted a small "spillover" if there replied that this was a fundamental point. was to be 100 per cent. coverage but he was The Government's intention to introduce asking Manx Radio not deliberately to commercial radio did not alter the constitu- broadcast to the mainland. There should be tional point that the Isle of Man station was as little "spillover" as possible. However, and must remain licensed by the Minister the Commission seemed at one point to be and, if it was receivable to any meaningful saying that they had a right to a share of extent on the mainland, the Minister would, the mainland audience. This would be con- in the absence of an answerable public trary to the terms of the licence. corporation appointed by the Westminster Government, have to answer for the pro- 10. Mr. Quayle suggested that an IBA gramming performance of Manx Radio. In station at Blackpool would probably be other words, the Manx claim on grounds of heard in the Isle of Man. The Minister said • constitutional separateness for a service of that the Ministry were still in the process their own was conditional upon their restric- of formulating the technical plan. The ting the service to the Island. The allocation problem of ensuring no "spillover" with of frequencies to the broadcasting authorities stations serving millions on the mainland was the chosen constitutional method for would be the aim, but it might be difficult. dealing with British broadcasting and this It was too early to know exactly what could not be infringed. The introduction of constraints this would throw up but he commercial radio did not change this. There appreciated as an important factor the force was not much point in discussing improve- of the Commission's argument that there ments to coverage if the Commission was should be reciprocal treatment in this respect. after something totally different. 11. The Minister suggested that, if the 9. The Minister asked whether the Com- Commission considered that the Isle of Man mission could accept that their aim was to station could not become viable without a get as wide a coverage of the Island as mainland audience, the answer might be for possible without broadcasting to the main- the Island to be served by a station working land? Mr. Kneale replied that "spillover" under the auspices of the IBA. If the larger must result with complete coverage of the part of the station's audience were to be on Island which could only be achieved by the the mainland this would surely be the fair use of 5 or 10 kW power. The Commission arrangement. The Island would have oppor- had a right to ask for a fair place in the tunities for making nominations to the Local commercial radio pattern as a whole. It Advisory Committee and the Island authori- should not be squeezed within the boundaries ties would not be debarred from participating of the Island. The Minister then asked in a consortium that applied for a contract whether it was really the Commission's view for say Liverpool or Blackpool. The that because Radio Manx was not viable it station would be subject to the same controls ought to be allowed to broadcast to the as other IBA stations in Britain. Would the mainland? Mr. Quayle replied that the main Commission wish to consider this? Mr. point was that Manx Radio was losing Quayle said he would consult his colleagues. money. They wanted to achieve full coverage Miss Christian asked if this meant that the of the Island and they also wanted to break station would be moved away from the even financially. Achieving full coverage Island. The Minister replied that it would would probably involve "spillover" and that not. There would be studios in the major might help financially. The Minister said population centres as well but there could

Standing Committee. on Common Interests of I.O.M. and U.K. — Statement by Mr. Speaker on Manx Radio. T398 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

be Isle of Man "opt out" programmes. Manx designed and built to a detailed specification. Radio's financial problems would be solved. Preliminary enquiries suggest costs of over If the Commission was convinced that Manx £25,000, coupled with additional engineering Radio was not viable with the Island alone maintenance staff. as its audience, this seemed to be the only solution. On the other hand, if the Manx Synchronized transmitter working im- Authorities thought that, although not viable, poses limitations on the service area of Manx Radio perhaps subsidised as necessary individual transmitters, for in the area of from Manx Government sources, should equal signal from two or more transmitters, continue with its present constitution then and unless there is exact synchronization coverage would have to continue to be between all carrier frequencies interference restricted to the Island. Certainly any pro- and programme distortion will occur. At posal to broadcast at 10 kW or even 5 kW night sky waves will still further limit the as had been suggested was unacceptable. area over which satisfactory reception is The Commission must understand that an possible, by tendering to increase the signals increase in power to reach a further audience from the distant synchronized transmitter. on the mainland was not an alternative open to them. The success of such a synchronized system depends upon the carrier frequencies 12. Mr. Quayle said that he would report of each transmitter remaining within 5 parts to the Tynwald. He would appreciate a note in 108. The ratio of field strength required of the meeting. The Minister promised to for a good service increases rapidly if there provide one within a week and added that is a slight difference in frequency between he hoped a solution could be worked out. the transmitter drives. A difference of 2 cycles per second increases the required ratio from 4:1 12db up to 10:1 20db. This may MEMORANDUM produce a serious loss of service area and could be caused by a frequency deviation of 7th APRIL, 1972. 1 cycle per second in each drive unit, that at our operating frequency would be just TO I.O.M. BROADCASTING COMMIS- over 1 part in 106. SION. To ensure that synchronization is main- FROM; EWAN LEEMING, CHIEF tained, one of the following methods may ENGINEER. be employed:—

a) The audio feeds to each transmitter would carry a subharmonic of the This latest report issued by the MPT is desired carrier frequency, then on receipt no more than a duplicate of the proposals of this signal at each transmitter, is offered to Pye of Cambridge in 1964 and multiplied to the desired frequency. rejected by them on economic and technical grounds, as it would offer no significant b) Another similar method uses the low improvement to the service. The MPT frequency subharmonic of one trans- declined from costing their proposals, for mitter which is fed via the audio feeds they know it would be an expensive project. to the network stations, it is then multi- Equipment would require to be custom plied back to the carrier frequency.

Standing Committee on Common Interests of .0.M. and U.K. — Statement by Mr. Speaker on Manx Radio. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973 T399

c) This arrangement would control inde- Two Installation Engineers, pendent transmitters from a monitoring 8 weeks @ £50 per day. £5,600.00 point midway between sights, any diffe- rence in frequency measured at this Four transmitters (2 for point used to correct the transmitter in 188m., 2 for 232m.) @ error. £3,000. 12,000-00

It could also be necessary to equalize Two Antenna systems g time delay effects in programme circuits to £500 each. 1,000.00 guard against distortion or echoes that may result. Audio Line equipment. 1,000.00

These methods are used when wishing Control and monitoring to cover areas of several hundred miles by equipment. 2,00000 large broadcasting authorities, but for a small undertaking such as Manx Radio Two transmitter sights @ covering an Island 30 miles by 12 miles, £2,000. 4,00000 one could not find a more difficult way. Manx Radio would then have a total of To design and build synchro- five transmitting sights. The engineering staff nization 'equipment. 8,000.00 of the station, through lack of numbers, are unable to fulfil all the duties of a well- TOTAL 133,60000 engineered station at this present time, so with the additional maintenance of a syn- chronized system, two extra engineers would Ewan Leeming. have to be employed, costing £4,000 p.a.

APPENDIX 13 The suggestion that 1594 KHz (188m.) should be used - for this so called. improve- Our Ref : PK/NC 7th April, 1972. ment is in itself a "non-starter". Many radio receivers will not tune to this frequency, it W. E. Quayle, Esq., M.L.C. is therefore unlikely that many more listeners Chairman, would be added to the service, and it Aims I.O.M. Broadcasting Commission, for this reason that in 1965 Manx Radio Thorny Lodge, was granted 1295 KHz (232m.) A night time Thorny Road, service is most unlikely even in close prox- DOWLAS, Isle of Man. imity of the transmitter, interference from continental stations would be in excess of Dear Mr. Quayle, the desired 200: I 46db protection ratio. On Monday, 3rd April, 1972, from A budgetry price is difficult at this approximately 1.10 p.m., the new R.C.A. stage, as no one system has been decided transmitter developed an intermittent fault, upon. Quotes would have to be obtained causing breaks in programme throughout from a detailed plan issued to manufacturers. the afternoon. The telephone lines were From enquiries made so far, cost would look jammed with complaints from listeners due as follows intermittent breakdowns lasting _ anything

Standing Committee on Common Interests of I.O.M. and UX. —Statement by Mr. Sneaker on Manx Radio. T400 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

from twenty seconds to over one minute. is completely obsolescent, might ocur, will This was caused by the time delay relay mean that we will be completely off service. switch which we know has been faulty for some time and the replacement part has not Yours sincerely, yet arrived from the U.S.A. PETER KNEALE. As we are now operating on pattern, it General Manager. took our Engineers almost two hours to Copies to: change over programming to the standby Mr. G. V. H. Kneale, M.H.K. Pye transmitter. In addition to the annoyance Mr. F. Luck man. to listeners, this means that some seventeen Mr, N. Kermode. commercials, a total cost of £21-25, will have Secretary of the I.O.M. Broadcasting to be compensated, as it is impossible to Commission. ascertain which commercials were broadcast or missed because of the breaks. We are now operating on the Pye transmitter, which APPENDIX C means that we have no standby equipment unless the R.C.A. transmitter is brought PART IV back on air when a repeat of Monday SPECIFIC TOPICS afternoon's breakdown could not be ruled Broadcasting in the Isle of Man out. 44. By virtue of United Kingdom. legis- It must also be pointed out that these lation extended to the Isle of Man with the faults are occuring when the new thrans- concurrence of Tynwald (and as already mitter is virtually •ticking over on one kilo- noted maintained in force in spite of Tyn- watt, and as it has not been given a complete wald's request that this extension should be and thorough test on ten kilowatts, we are revoked) and by virtue of international unable to say what faults might develup obligations entered into by Her Majesty's were we ever in a position to operate on a •Government and applicable to the Island higher power. (obligations with which the Isle of Man is willing to continue to conform) the British Another point that should be brought Islands are treated as a unit For broadcasting to notice, is that the guarantee period for this and the Postmaster-General is responsible transmitter is rapidly running out and any for the licensing of both wireless trans- faults that occur after the twelve months mission and reception. In 1962 an agreement guarantee is-up would be the responsibility was reached between the Postmaster-General of the station. The guarantee now has and the Isle of Man Government to permit approximately nine months to run. the establishment of a radio transmitting station in the Island to operate in such a Unless instructed to the contrary, the way that reception would be (reasonably) Station will remain on the Pie transmitter restricted within the Island. The station on pattern until the replacement time delay might be financed by advertising if the Isle switch is received from the States and fitted of Man Government so wished; it does in to the new transmitter, such mast of course fact operate now as a commercial station. being on pattern. But I must report Mr. Since 1962 the Isle of Man Government has Chairman, that any fault, that, in the present sought authority to remove the limitations circumstances using a transmitter which on the operation of this station (Manx Radio)

Standing Cor;innittee on Common Interests of .0.M. and U.K. — Statement by Mr. Speaker on Manx Radio. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973 T401

to enable its transmissions to be regularly Parliament. His conclusion was that Her receivable in the United Kingdom. The Majesty's Government were bound to main- Postmaster-General has been unable to do tain the settlement reached in 1962. This was more than agree to a minor increase in that in recognition of the Island's separate power and to allocate extra wavelengths constitutional identity, the Island should primarily to improve reception within the have a sound radio service of its own; that Island ; he has been unable to agree that the service should not be receivable on any Manx Radio should be enabled to broadcast regular basis in the United Kingdom; and to the United Kingdom. The direct connec- that, on this footing, the constitution, tion between this issue and the constitutional organisation and method of controlling and relationship is limited to the question financing the service were wholly and solely whether — as the Isle of Man would claim a matter for the Island itself. He asked the — broadcasting should be treated as an Island to accept that, just as the 1962 internal matter within the competence of settlement recognises the Island's aspiration Tynwald (so long as international obligations to provide its own service for its own people, applying to the Isle of Man are observed) or so it reserves to the United Kingdom whether — as is the opinion of Her Majesty's Government the right to determine what Government in the United Kingdom - services of broadcasting should be provided broadcasting transcends the frontiers of the to the United Kingdom under his licence. Island. This issue has been mentioned in He added that, within this settlement, all the preceding paragraphs of this report. How- technical advice his Department could use- ever, the Working Party agreed to examine fully give was, as it had always been at the this matter separately as one of the difficulties disposal of the Island authorities. arising from the present constitutional rela- tionship,-and, as we have recorded elsewhere (see paragraph 3), both Mr. Short and Mr. APPENDIX D Stonehouse, as Postmaster - General, have been good enough to attend our meetings for Isle of Man memorandum containing pro- this purpose. A summary (prepared by the posals for the reorganisation of sound G.P.O.) of broadcasting developments as broadcasting, regards the Isle of Man from 1962 is given in Appendix 8. Following discussion arising Introduction. from that paper the Isle of Man Represent- atives submitted proposals (Appendix 9) 1. A general survey of the organisation designed to overcome the objections seen of sound broadcasting in the countries of by the Post Office (and, outlined to the the Commonwealth discloses a preference Working Party by Mr. Short on 26th March, for statutory bodies to carry it on and some 1968) to the desired extension of operations pattern in the arrangements. The Legislature, of Manx Radio to the United Kingdom. In the Executive Branch of Government (usu- further discussion on 13th September, 1968, ally the appropriate Minister), a statutory Mr. Stonehouse stated that the Island's body (Authority, Commission or Corpora- proposals involved in his view a fundamental tion), and advisory councils or committees departure from the principle that the pro- (with varying degrees of influence) all play vision and conduct of broadcasting services a part. to the United Kingdom, in consequence of a licence granted by him, should rest in the 2. The Legislature enacts fairly detailed charge of public authorities answerable to legislation and may also approve rules or

Standing Committee on Common Interests of I.O.M. and U.K. — Statement by Mr. Speaker on Manx Radio. T402 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

regulations prepared by some other authority. means of information, education and enter- The Executive makes appointments to a tainment," but the Commission requires the statutory body, gives directions on the con- approval of Tynwald before it may operate duct of broadcasting and exercises control any Broadcasting service itself. Programme over the technical aspects. A statutory body, standards were prescribed by the Act and within limits set by statute and regulations, it is the duty of the Commission to see that carries on broadcasting. Advisory councils, they are maintained. broadly representative of the general public, give advice to the Executive and to the The Tynwald Representatives, noting statutory body. the views of the. Postmaster-General ex- pressed at the meeting of the Joint Working 3. The Tynwald Representatives propose Party on 26th March, 1968, consider that for the Isle of Man a simplified version of Tynwald should be invited to enact legis- an organisation on the above lines. Sound lation whereby the operation of a broad- broadcasting would be carried on in the Isle casting service should be entrusted to an of Man by an answerable statutory Auth- answerable public authority, which would ority (the Manx Broadcasting Authority), replace the concessionaire company, and under detailed legislation enacted by Tyn- should be supervised by a Broadcasting wald and enforced, if need be, by directions Council (to adopt the nomenclature usual in from the Lieutenant Governor, and under the Commonwealth to denote supervisory, the general supervision of, and with advice as distinct from operational, functions) with from, a broadly representative Isle of Man a membership larger than that of the present Broadcasting Council. Broadcasting Commission which it would replace. 4. Sound broadcasting in the Isle of Man is at present carried on under the name of The powers of the Lieutenant-Governor Manx Radio by a limited company, the Isle under Section 7 of the Act of 1965 should, of Man Broadcasting Co. Ltd., as the sole the Tynwald Representatives consider, be concessionaire under an agreement made in re-enacted in any new legislation but, as November, 1964, between the company and will be seen, they also suggest that the Gov- the Government of the Isle of Man. Recently ernor's powers in respect of broadcasting the Government acquired, at an agreed should be increased in certain respects. purchase price, the entire shareholding in the Company. General Principles. The Broadcasting Commission (Isle of Man) Act, 1965 (Ch. 20), created the Isle 5. As the Pilkington Committee observed of Man Broadcasting Commission with a (Report, Cmnd. 1753, para. 386, p. 116) — membership of five, to supervise broad- "The basic constitutional problem of broad- casting, to take note of the reception in casting has aways been how to reconcile the the Island of broadcasting, both as to Government's responsibility with the inde- quality and content, and to further the pendence of the broadcasting organisations interests of the Isle of Man in the whole providing the services." The Tynwald Rep- field of radio and television. The Commission resentatives recognise this and accept, as the was also to take such steps as may be starting point of their consideration of the necessary for the provision and maintenance problem of organisation, the two propositions of a broadcasting service or services "as a that :

Standing Committee on Common Interests of I.O.M. and U.K. — Statement by Mr. Speaker on Manx Radio. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973 T403

(1) A broadcasting service controlled rule out advertising as a means of financing by and serving a government of a broadcasting stations in public ownership, it particular political complexion is is in their view of first importance to main- undesirable; and tain public service principles in the further development of the broadcasting services" (ii) "Because broadcasting has social ("Broadcasting", Comnd. 3169, Dec. 1966, effects, no government could fail to para. 34, p. 8). This, the Tynwald Represent- be concerned with it or to reserve atives believe, is an approach shared by the to itself ultimate powers of control." Isle of Man Government, to use that descrip- (Pilkington Report, para. 386, tion as comprehensive of all its components, p. 115.) except for the variation that, for the Isle of Man, such financing has to be accepted as 6. The Constitution of the Isle of Man essential as the Island's resources would not and the present political structure there do extend to subsidising a broadcasting service. not produce a "Government of the day" Such acceptance, however, does not involve which has a particular, observable, political abandonment o[ the principle that advertis- bias. Government, in its most general sense, ing is "incidental and secondary" to the is distributed. The Lieutenant Governor, is "main purpose" of broadcasting: "to provide the head of the Executive, which a Civil a service of broadcasting to the public": Service (of which the Government Secretary words used by the Pilkington Committee is the head) serves, but executive government about television advertising (Report. para. is also carried on by Tynwald (the Legis- 218, p. 70). lative Council and the House of Keys sitting together) and through Boards of Tynwald 8. The Tynwald Representatives have, (which may, and often do, include persons therefore, attempting to propose a scheme who are not members of Tynwald). Executive which gives the broadcasting authority Council, which assists and advises the "independence in the handling of day-to-day Lieutenant Governor, is not formed by matters, including individual programmes" members of any particular political group (Pilkington Report, para. 389, p. 117) but or even composed of persons with similar which subjects it to rather more than the political sympathies or tendencies. So, in the "mainly reserve powers" ("Broadcasting", view of Tynwald Representatives, govern- Cmnd. 1770, June, 1962) which the United ment-operated broadcasting would not have, Kingdom Government has over the B.B.C. in the Isle of Man, the dangers which might be thought to attend it elsewhere where a 9. The reason why something more than single party forms the Government. At the "reserve powers" seems desirable is not same time, the organisation which provides because the Manx Broadcasting Authority the broadcasting service must not be given itself will not be required "to control the form or acquire the outlook of a standards and to ensure impartiality" (Cmnd. government department; it must have a 1770, para, 74, p.10) and to exclude from the sufficient degree of independence to enable programmes broadcast by it all expressions it to provide a lively, though responsible, of the opinion of its members and employees public service. on "matters of public or industrial con- troversy or relating to current public policy", 7. The Tynwald Representatives have both in the United Kingdom and the Isle of noted that while Her Majesty's Government Man (see Television Act, 1964, s. 3(l)(e)(2) ), in the United Kingdom "do not, in principle, It will be so required by legislation of

Standing Committee on Common Interests of I.O.M. and U.K. Statement by Mr. Speaker on Manx Radio. T404 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

Tynwald. The reason is that the Tynwald relating to the conduct of broadcasting as Representatives recognise that a Manx Broad- the United Kingdom Government has in casting Service which finds the majority of respect of the B.B.C. (see Pilkington Report, its audience in the British Islands other than paras. 380 - 383, pp. 114, 115) with the the Isle of Man must be controlled by exception of authorising broadcasts of adver-. supervisory machinery which will ensure tisements (which statute will authorise). that the public service which it provides is not allowed to fall below the programme These powers are: standards which . the B.B.C. maintains. If Manx Radio is to take a modest place beside (i) To veto any particular broadcast or B.B.C. stations in providing, as public service, class of broadcast (see B.B.C. the dissemination of "information, education Charter, Art. 14(4), Cmnd. 2236, and entertainment" (B.B.C. Charter, Pre- P. 8) ; amble) to all the British Islands, it must, the Tynwald Representatives recognise, compete (ii) To require the broadcasting auth- for attention of British ears on the same orities to broadcast announcements basis as its friendly, though giant, rival and (B.B.C. Charter, Art. 14(3)) ; avoid anything repugnant to public feeling in the United Kingdom. (iii) To prescribe the actual hours during which broadcasting may 10. The United Kingdom audience would take place (Television Act, 1964, expect no less; and Parliament would no s. 17). doubt demand it of any United Kingdom Government which assisted in bringing into 13. In addition it is proposed that the being a British broadcasting station capable principal legislation should prescribe, in of being heard in England. Scotland and some detail, programme standards and that Wales. The Tynwald Representatives have the Lieutenant Governor should have power framed their proposals with these consider- (compare ss. 7(5), 8(4), Television Act. 1964): ations in mind. (iv) To give directions as to the classes 11. The proposals, however, also rec- and descriptions of advertisements ognise that the requirement" that the pro- which must not be broadcast and grammes maintain a high general standard the methods of advertising which of quality applies to the advertisements just must not be employed. as it applies to the main items" (Pilkington Report, para. 214, p. 69, speaking of tele- (v) To give directions on the greatest vision). The Tynwald Representatives have, amount of time to be given to therefore, drawn upon the proyisions of the advertisements in any hour or other Television Act, 1964 and the relevant parts period and on the exclusion of of the Pilkington Report for ideas on the advertisements from a specified control of advertisements, and also obtained broadcast or from classes of broad- inspiration from legislation in other Com- cast. monwealth countries. 14. Furthermore, it seems to the Tynwald 12. The Tynwald Representatives pro- Representatives that although the principal pose that Government in the Isle of Man legislation should lay down rules about should have the same powers "in reserve" advertisements, as Schedule 2 of the Tele-

Standing Committee on Common Interests of I.O.M. and U.K.— Statement by Mr. Speaker on Manx Radio. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973 T405

vision Act, 1964, does, this may not prove lead to continuing improvement of the to be sufficient, even though only sound quality and standard of broadcasting. But broadcasting is involved. Some particular the Tynwald Representatives recognise that classes of advertisement might call for once a broadcasting service has become special rules; and the statutory standards established, its abolition for failure to pro- generally might later require to be made vide a good service would be politically more precise or more effective. While the impossible. More documents laying down Tynwald Representatives consider that some more general precepts would be no cure. of the LT.A.s "Code of Television Adver- Those who operate the service would have tising Standards and Practice" (formerly the to be converted to better taste and higher "Principles for Television Advertising"; see values—or removed from office. They Pilkington Report, pp. 85 - 87 for 4th edition) therefore propose that the voting members and of the "Code of Standards for Television of the Manx Broadcasting Authority, al- Advertising" of Radio Telefis Eireann might though appointed for terms of years, should be enacted in the principal legislation and be removable at the will of the appointing that others are inapplicable to sound broad- authority. casting, a third category may prove to require to be given the force of law, perhaps 17. Care in making appointments to the with adaptations, when experience has been Authority should avoid the need for the gained. Accordingly, the proposals suggest exercise of any drastic remedy of removal arrangements for the enactment by Tynwald from office, and the proposals suggest not of subordinate legislation (regulations) on the only that there should be consultation on advice of the broadly representative Broad- appointments to membership but also that casting Council: For example, it might be the three principal appointments should be necessary to enact a statutory requirement in different hands. Here some explanation that all medical advertisements (for drugs, of an apparently novel constitutional agree- treatments, preparations, etc.) should be ment is called for. subject to prior approval (see Cmnd. 1770, para. 66, p. 9 and Television Act, 1964, 18. The Isle of Man is autonomous in s. 9(7) as to television advertisements). respect of matters which do not transcend its frontiers, whether land frontiers or terri- 15. Even with such principal legislation torial waters, save that it must observe and statutory powers, the Tynwald Repre- international obligations and commitments sentatives recognise that prescription by which, by action of the United Kingdom legislation of detailed programme standards Government have bound the Island; It might might not be enough. As the Pilkington be argued that broadcasting from a country, Cortimittee put it (Report, para. 34, p. 12): on an internationally acceptable frequency at a power enabling reception in other LL • no written formula for good countries, would transcend its frontiers and broadcasting is possible. Good broad- remove its autonomy in respect of a matter casting is a practise, not a prescrip- which otherwise would be subject only to tion." relevant international obligations. This the Tynwald Representatives could not concede. 16. The Tynwald Representatives do not Such an argument. would raise most serious expect that the Authority will not achieve issues, not least, it may be, for such broad- "good broadcasting" on the Island; an casting services as the B.B.C.'s External increased income from broadcasting would Services (see "Britain: An- Official Handbook

Standing Committee on Common Interests of I.O.M. and U.K.— Statement by Mr. Speaker on Manx Radio. T406 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

1968", pp. 454 - 455; "Overseas Information of one member of the Manx Authority; Services", Cmnd. 225, pp. 4, 5), and possibly the Crown in Council would be acting in bring international legal repercussions. right of and in the interests of each of the three parts of the single area — the United 19. Nevertheless the Tynwald Repre- Kingdom, the Channel Islands and the Isle sentatives recognise that as the United of Man. As the Manx Broadcasting Autho- Kingdom, the Channel Islands and the Isle rity is to be a public authority in the of Man form a "single area" for broad- Isle of Man, the Executive there should casting purposes considerations different from make at least one of the other appoint- those mentioned in paragraph 18 above ments ; this duty would be given to the apply to broadcasting from one part of that Lieutenant Governor acting on advice. The area to the other parts. Not only is this a third member should be the Chairman "single area" for international broadcasting an important post because, as under the purposes; is is also a "single area" for B.B.C. Charter (Art. 7(3)(d) ), any question "the Home Service" of the B.B.C. for the which could not by reason of its urgency purposes of its current Charter (Cmntl. 2385, be decided at a meeting of the Authority Art. 3(a)) and an area treated as a unit would have to be decided by the Chairman. under s. 1(3) of the Television Act, 1964. It is suggested that the appointment of the Each part of the "single area" can claim a Chairman of the Authority should be made concern with broadcasting which its people by the Lieutenant Governor of the isle of can receive from another part. This has been Man with the agreement of Her Majesty's recognised for "a committee representative Postmaster General acting on behalf of the of the main streams of religious thought in United Kingdom and the Channel Islands. the United Kingdom, the Isle of Man and The agreement of the Channel Islands to the Channel Islands", this arrangement would, of course, have to be obtained, 20. Accordingly, the Tynwald Repre- sentatives have considered the feasibility of 21. As already mentioned, a voting providing for individual participation of all member of the Authority would cease to be three parts of the "single area" in the process a member in certain circumstances, listed in of making appointments to the Manx Broad- the principal legislation, one of which would casting Authority. Reluctantly they have be the termination of his appointment by reached the conclusion that this would not the authority (Crown in Council or Lieu- be practicable. The Channel Islands share no tenant Governor) which appointed him. The common governmental authority save Par- Lieutenant Governor would not be required liament and the Crown in Council, and it to seek advice before taking such action. would be quite impossible to arrange for separate participation of all the Channel 22. The Tynwald Representatives rec- Islands. But the Crown in Council is, as it ognise that the roles of the Crown in Council were, shared not merely by all the Channel and the Postmaster General in the matter Islands but also by all parts of the "single of appointments to the Manx Broadcasting area", just as the Parliament at Westminster Authority would allow, so far as their has paramount legislative powers in respect respective procedures permitted, discussion of of all three parts (the United Kingdom, the Manx Broadcasting in the legislatures of the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man). It United Kingdom and the Channel Islands therefore seems right that a Crown appoint- (as well as in Tynwald). In view of the ment should be the method of appointment special position of these as parts of the

Standing Committee on Common Interests of I.O.M. and U.K. — Statement by Mr. Speaker on Manx Radio. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973 T407

"single area", this does not, it seems to the and a strike by them, possibly bringing out Tynwald Representatives, infringe any prin- the Phonographic Unions, could not be ruled ciple of the Constitutional relationship be- out if there appeared to be a threat to the tween the Isle of Man and either the United work of live musicians from the advent of Kingdom or the Channel Islands. Manx Radio with British Islands coverage.

23. A separate, but equally difficult and 25. The Tynwald Representatives do not important matter is the financing of broad- see broadcasting financed by advertising as casting in the Isle of Man. Financing by primarily a revenue raising scheme. The revenue from advertising is, as already primary purpose of broadcasting is the dis- stated, unavoidable. But the revenue should, semination of information, education and at any rate after a time, exceed the cost of entertainment. The Tynwald Representatives the organisation and the operation of Manx see it as a public service, advertising being broadcasting. The surplus will accrue to the incidental, though inevitably so for the Isle General Revenue of the Island which should, of Man, and secondary to its main purpose. therefore, be greater than it was before the The revenue aspect cannot, however, be Insular Government embarked upon broad- ignored, particularly in view of the fact that casting financed by advertising as a public both Conservative and Labour Administra- service. tions in the United Kingdom have endorsed the principle for Independent Television that 24. The potential amount of such surplus programme contractors shall pay to the revenue must not be exaggerated, which it is Exchequer, through the I.T.A., a levy, easy to do under the influence of Press previously the television advertisement duty stories about the fortunes to be won in but now taking the form of "additional commercial television. A problem of "needle- payments" calculated, in accordance with a time" may arise for Manx Radio if it table, by reference to advertising receipts acquires a potential audience throughout the above a statutory minimum: see Television British islands. At present the Performing Act, 1964, ss. 13, 14. Right Society allows Manx Radio 50 per cent. (or 42 hours per week) of total broad- 26. The question, therefore arises whether casting time as "needle-time", as against only revenue raised, directly in the case of the 20 per cent. allowed to the B.B.C. The larger Isle of Man under these proposals, by amount allowed to Manx Radio presumably charging for the broadcasting of advertise- reflects the smallness of its present audience, ments ought to be distributed so that it namely, only part of the population of the benefits indirectly the general public who Island. If this potential audience were make up the audience whose purchases increased to include the United Kingdom, ultimately pay for the broadcast advertising the permitted "needle-time" might be reduced to which they are subjected. Attractive as this to, or near to, the one-fifth allowed to the proposition might be in theory, its practical B.B.C. This would mean that the rest of application could produce chaos. For ex- Manx broadcasting time would have to be ample, in commercial negotiations between, filled with material which would be more say, the United Kingdom and Luxembourg, exepensive than gramophone records, with it might be said that in assessing the mutual a consequential reduction in the potential advantages of a trade pact under negotiation net revenue from advertising which would account should be taken of the "invisibles" remain after paying all expenses. The Mus- represented, on the one side, by the alleged icians' Union would no doubt be watchful, enjoyment by United Kingdom listeners to

Standing Committee on Common Interests of I.O.M. and U.K.—Statement by Mr. Speaker on Manx Radio. T408 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

Radio Luxembourg of its programmes contracts with the programme companies financed by advertisements and, on the other, whose broadcasts are seen in the Island, this by the increased sales in the United King- revenue being paid to the Exchequer of the dom brought about by the advertising United Kingdom, which is entitled because material which is included in those pro- the relevant broadcasts are from "stations grammes. in Great Britain". For the purposes of booking and charging for advertisements the 27. In this context, the Tynwald Repre- unmanned satellite transmitter on Richmond sentatives have noted that Parliament and Hill, south-west of Douglas, Isle of Man, is Her Majesty in Council have adopted for not regarded as a "station" from which a commercial television the principles that:— programme company broadcasts, notwith- standing the fact that it is that transmitter (i) it is for the legislature of the part of which enables those television broadcasts to the "single area" from which adver- be seen by people in the Island (see tising broadcasts emanate to decide Pilkington Report, App. A. para. 2). on the levying of any revenue charge: see Television Act, 1964, ss,13, 14; But the true significance of the situation Statutory Instrument 1964, No. 1202, described above lies in the fact that Parlia- Schedule, paras. 5, 6 (Channel ment has not adopted, as the criterion for Islands); Statutory Instrument 1965, distributing the yield from the advertising No. 601, Schedule, paras. 5, 6 (Isle levy, the location of the audiences, but the of Man); location of the originating stations. If there is a principle, it is that of origin, or the (ii) the revenue derived from such a levy "emitting" aspect of wireless telegraphy (see should benefit the Exchequer of that Wireless Telegraphy Act, 1949, s. 19(1); part or those parts (proportionately) Television Act, 1964, s. 28(1) ), instead of of the 'single area" from which the that of the "receiving" aspect, which has revenue yielding advertising em- been adopted for these purposes. anated : see Television Act, 1964, s. 14(3). 28. On this basis the Tynwald Repre- sentatives see no grounds for proposing that Thus, for commercial television, it is the any different principle should apply to sound location of the "stations" from which the broadcasting within the single area, which is programmes supplied under contract are to financed from payments for advertising. be broadcast that governs which part of the Accordingly, until a "reception" principle "single area" is to impose the levy (if any) replaces the current "station" principle for and which part or parts benefit from its yield the distribution of the levy on commercial (s. 14(3) (a) Great Britain) (b) (Northern television receipts, the Tynwald Represent- Irleand) (c) (both proportionately). So it is atives do not propose any different principle left to the Isle of Man, in exercise of its for "commercial" sound broadcasting. Prima powers over taxation, to decide if it will facie the part of the single area where the impose a levy by reference to advertising station is located should keep the total receipts under a contract for the supply of receipts from its service. television programmes to be broadcast from a station on the Island. At the same time, 29. Nevertheless, the Tynwald Represent- the Isle of Man receives no proportion of atives recognise that receipts from sale of the revenue collected by the I.T.A. under its advertising time on Manx Radio ought to

Standing Committee on Common Interests of I.O.M. and U.K.—Statement by Mr. Speaker on Manx Radio. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973 T409

increase the General Revenue of the Island, the Postmaster-General for the services to perhaps appreciably, if Manx Radio gains a be rendered in the future by the latter's potential audience throughout the British staff to Manx broadcasting. The. payments Islands. This additional revenue could bring would of course be made out of the revenue notable benefits to the people of the Island derived from Manx broadcasting. through the improvement of welfare services, etc. At the same time the Island recognises 32. Futhermore, in addition to payments that the cost of services provided for the for technical and other services referred to Isle of Man or for all the British Islands by in the preceding paragraph, the Tynwald the United Kingdom Government must be Representatives propose that the Govern- contributed to by whOever benefits from ment of the Isle of Man should pay annually them. It is for this reason that the Isle of to the United Kingdom Exchequer an agreed Man Government now makes an annual percentage of the net profits derived from contribution to the Exchequer of 5 per cent. Manx broadcasting after meeting all expenses of the Common Purse Receipts. and after carrying forward against profits any losses of previous years. In fixing the per- 30. The Tynwald Representatives con- centage to be paid to the United Kingdom, sider that the destination of revenue receipts various considerations will have to be taken from broadcast advertising should not be into account. One would be that, as already viewed on the basis that the revenue should mentioned, there is no corresponding be segregated for special treatment on a arrangement whereby the United Kingdom basis different from that enacted by Parlia- adjusts, in favour of the Island, the benefit ment in the field of commercial television, of the. Exchequer receipts from the "ad- but that broadcasting should be regarded as ditional payments" under the Television Act, a new source of General Revenue for the 1964. Another is the fact that all the revenue Island. from the sale of broadcasting receiving licences to residents of the Island go to the 31. The . Tynwald Representatives have B.B.C. through a Parliamentary vote. Yet noted with satisfaction and appreciation, the another consideration would be the interest Postmaster General's readiness, as they inter- of the United Kingdom in a financially preted Mr. Short's attitude at the meeting of strong Isle of Man. But these and other the Joint Working Party on 26th March, such considerations can be discussed after 1968, to advise and assist the Isle of Man in the principle has been accepted. developing sound broadcasting. The Govern- ment of the Isle of Man will no doubt wish 33. The Tynwald Representatives cannot to avail itself continuously of the advice and ignore broad economic aspects of advertising assistance of the staff of the General Post by radio. Such advertising, by its nature, is Office in the technical and other branches designed to stimulate consumer demand. during the next stage of Manx broadcasting Such increases in consumption may well and well into the future. The Tynwald become, from time to time, inimical to the Representatives suggest that arrangements economic policies common to both the for the provision of such advice and assist- United Kingdom Government and the ance should be made the subject of an Insular Government. In this area there must agreement between the two parties, and that be consultation and co-operation, with a the agreement should make provision for view to any necessary exercise of the power payment, at proper rates to be agreed upon, to "give directions as to the classes and by the Government of the Isle of Man to descriptions of advertisements which must

■■■ ■ ■ •■■■■••=.111 ..1.1.1■...... “111■111M11•11•11■10.1••■■111=1111.1•1■• ••••1111MEN Standing Committee on Common Interests of I.O.M. and U.K. — Statement by Mr. Speaker on Manx Radio. T410 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

not be broadcast" (see para. 13 above). The The Isle of Man Broadcasting Council. Tynwald Representatives believe that the Standing- Committee which they have pro- 37. The Council would have seven mem- posed in the Working Party, as a permanent bers, some elected by Tynwald, others feature of the constitutional relationship, appointed by the Lieutenant Governor. The would ensure that this aspect of economic members would be appointed for three years policy could be adequately provided for. and be eligible for reappointment. One For the information of H.M. Postmaster- member would be nominated by the Gov- General, the proposals on the Standing ernors of the British Broadcasting Corpo- Committee are reproduced at Appendix A ration (if they will accept the duty) for to this paper. appointment by the Lieutenant Governor. The Council itself would not have executive 34. A further matter to be considered is powers; it would advise the Lieutenant the duty of the Manx broadcasting Authority Governor on the exercise of some of his to keep accounts and to produce reports. It executive powers, conferred by statute, over goes without saying that the Authority must broadcasting, except where Tynwald had account on a strict basis, and the arrange- provided in the legislation that advice to ments must ensure this. An annual audit by the Governor should be that of Executive independently appointed auditors and sub- Council or that he could act alone. The mission of the audited accounts to Tynwald Council would supervise broadcasting gen- and to each official or body which appoints erally; it could prepare, for enactment by or concurs in the appointment of a member Tynwald, regulations designed to make more of the Authority would be required. It seems precise or effective the standards enacted by to the Tynwald Representatives that the Tynwald in the principal legislation; and it Authority should be under a similar duty could advise on the development and to prepare and distribute an annual Report. improvement of broadcasting. The Accounts and Report would be public 38. The Council would replace the Isle documents. of Man Broadcasting Commission. 35. The Tynwald Representatives have 39. The seven members of the Council adopted no position on "sponsored pro- would be appointed, each for three years, grammes", that is any matter which is as follows:— provided at the expense of a sponsor (i.e. a person other than the Manx Broadcasting (a) A Member nominated by the Gov- Authority, and the performers) for the ernors of the B.B.C. and appointed purpose of being broadcast and is the subject by the Lieutenant Governor. of a broadcast announcement mentioning the sponsor or his goods or services (see B.B.C. (b) Four Members, of whom none shall Licence, Cmnd. 2236, Art. I, p. 4). This is be also a member of Executive a matter on which the Tynwald Repre- Council and at least two shall be sentatives would value a discussion with members of Tynwald, elected by H.M. Postmaster-General, Tynwald;

36. This paper now turns to outline the (c) Two Members, not being also mem- more detailed provisions which, it is pro- bers of Tynwald, appointed by the posed, Tynwald should enact in application Lieutenant Governor on the advice of the scheme and principles discussed above. of Executive Council.

Standing Committee on Common Interests of .0.M. and U.K. — Statement by Mr. Speaker on Manx Radio. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973 T4I I

Provision would be made to allow a (d) To advise the Authority on, and to member to resign and to enable the Council make recommendations to the to declare a vacancy in the event of a Lieutenant Governor and to Tynwald member being unable or failing to fulfil for, development and improvement his duties. of broadcasting on the Island; (a) To see that the Authority observed, 40. Members of the Isle of Man Civil and to report to the Lieutenant Service would not be eligible for election Governor on any failure to observe, or appointment. the standards prescribed by Tynwald in the principal and subordinate 41. Tynwald would lay down in the legislation as to principal legislation that Tynwald should, in making its elections (see 39(b) above), have (i)form and content of programmes; regard to the need for achieving a broad representative character for the Council and, (ii) advertising matter in broadcasts; in particular, the desirability, in so far as a limited membership allowed, of seeing that (f) If need arose, to draft, with the the towns and rural areas were adequately advice and assistance of H.M. represented, and that the viewpoints of Attorney-General for the Isle of educational, religious and cultural interests, Man, and to submit to Tynwald for women's and youth organisations, agricul- enactment, regulations making more ture, both sides of industry and the profes- precise or effective the standards sions would be heard in the Council's referred to in (e) above; deliberations. (g) If need arose, to recommend to the 42. Every member of the Council would Lieutenant Governor the issue to receive a small remuneration and reimburse- the Authority of such Notices, not ment of reasonable expenses actually in- being inconsistent with the prin- curred. A civil servant would be Secretary cipal legislation or with regulations, of the Council. as to the exercise and performance by the Authority of its functions, as appeared to the Council to be re- 43. The duties of the Council would be: quisite or desirable and permitted by legislation in force at the time; (a) To supervise generally broadcasting in the Island; (h) To approve the form of the Auth- ority's Advertising Tariff and of its (b) To take note of the reception in Annual Reports; the Isle of Man of broadcasting both as to quality and content and, from (1) To advise the Lieutenant Governor time to time as it may deem neces- on the appointmet of one voting sary, to report to the Lieutenant member of the Authority. Governor thereon; 44. The Council would elect its own (c) To further the interests of the Isle Chairman and control its own procedure of Man in the whole field of radio within the limits laid down by Tynwald and television; in legislation.

Standing Committee on Common Interests of I.O.M. and U.K.—Statement by Mr. Speaker on Manx Radio. T4I2 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

The Manx Broadcasting Authority 48. (a) The voting members of the Authority would be appointed as follows: 45. The Authority would be a public corporation with adequate statutory powers (1) One member (to be known as to carry on broadcasting on the Island under "the Crown Member") appointed the name of "Manx Radio", subject to by Her Majesty in Council.

(a) the terms of relevant statutes; (2) One member appointed by the Lieutenant Governor on the (b) any regulations made under the advice of the Broadcasting statutes; Council.

(c) any Notice given by the Lieutenant (3) The Chairman of the Authority Governor under the statutes; and appointed by the Lieutenant Governor with the agreement of (d) the observance of international obli- Her Majesty's Postmaster Gen- gations binding the Island. eral given on behalf of the United Kingdom and the Chan- But the Authority would not be able to nel Islands. dispose of or mortgage or lease its land, buildings or wireless telegraphic equipment (b) The Crown Member would be Vice- except with the written approval of the Chairman of the Authority. Lieutenant Governor acting on the advice of Executive Council. (c) Two voting members, of whom one is the Chairman or the Vice-Chairman, would be a quorum. 46. The Authority would consist of four members. A non-voting General Manager, (d) A member, however appointed, would appointed by the Lieutenant Governor on be appointed for three years, but the advice of three voting members of the would earlier cease to be a member Authority, would be the fourth member, of the Authority (and, if he is such, He would be in general charge of the day- the Chairman or Vice-Chairman to-day business and the staff of the Authority thereof) — and be personally responsible for the content of programmes. (i) If he shall at any time by notice in writing to the Lieutenant 47. Members of Tynywald and of the Governor resign his member- Civil Service would be ineligible for service ship ; as members of the Authority; so would members of the Broadcasting Council them- (ii) If, being the Crown Member, selves. The three voting members would be his membership shall be termi- remunerated on such basis as the Finance nated by Her Majesty in Board decided. The General Manager would Council; be employed under a contract. He would have under him an assistant, the Advertising (iii) If, being the Chairman, his Controller, to take charge of all aspects membership shall be terminated of advertising. by the Lieutenant Governor

Standing Committee on Common Interests of .0.M. and U.K.—Statement by Mr. Speaker on Manx Radio. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973 T413

with the agreement of Her (g) expresses the opinion of any of Majesty's Postmaster-General. the members or the staff of the Authority on matters of political (iv) If, being neither the Chairman or, industrial controversy or nor the Crown Member, his relating to current public policy membership shall be terminated of the United Kingdom, the Isle by the Lieutenant Governor. of Man or the Channel Islands.

(v) If he shall absent himself from (2) News to be presented with due the meetings of the Authority accuracy, impartiality and objectivity. continuously for three months or longer without the consent (3) Programmes to maintain a proper of the Authority and the Auth- balance in their subject matter and a ority shall resolve that his office general high standard of quality : to be vacated. contain a suitable proportion of matter calculated to appeal specially Programme Standards to the tastes and outlook of persons served by the Authority's station or 49. Tynwald would prescribe, by legis- stations; lation, standards as to (i) form and content of programmes; (ii) advertising matter in (4) Due impartiality to be preserved in broadcasts. the programmes in respect of matters of political or industrial controversy 50. On form and content of programmes, or relating to current public policy it is recommended that Tynwald should of the United Kingdom, the Isle of prescribe the following standards: Man or the Channel Islands; but here a series of programmes would be (1) Nothing to be included in pro- considered as a whole; and this grammes which: would not prevent the broadcasting of discussions and debates in which the (a) is blasphemous, indecent or participants expressed opinions and obscene; put forward arguments of a political character. (b) offends against good taste ;

(c) is likely to encourage or incite (5) Items designed to give publicity to to crime or to lead to disorder ; the needs or objects of any association or organisation conducted for chari- (d) is offensive to public feeling; table or benevolent purposes shall not be considered to be advertisements (e) makes any offensive reference but shall be broadcast only with the to any living person ; prior written approval of the text given on behalf of the Authority by (f) is designed to serve the interests its Chairman or Vice-Chairman. of a political party or is propa- ganda relating to religious 51. On advertisements, it is proposed that matters; or Tynwald should lay down that:

Standing Committee on Common Interests of I.O.M. and U.K. — Statement by Mr. Speaker on Manx Radio. T414 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

(I) The Authority and advertisers must (iv) such other broadcasts or comply with the following provisions classes of broadcast as the in relation to the broadcasting of Lieutenant Governor, on the advertisements — advice of the Broadcasting Council, may from time to time prescribe by Notice. (a) Advertisements must be clearly distinguishable as such and In the acceptance of advertise- recognisably separate from the (e) ments there must be no unreas- rest of the programme and from onable discrimination either each other. against or in favour of any particular advertiser; but pre- (b) The amount of the time given to ference both as regards quantity advertising in the programmes (within the prescribed limits) shall not be so great as to and charges, may be given to detract from the value of the persons (including companies) programmes as a medium of carrying on business in the Isle information, education and of Man. entertainment. (f) The charges made for adver- (c) No advertisement shall be tisements shall be in accordance permitted which is inserted by with tariffs fixed by the Auth- or on behalf of any body the ority with the approval of the objects whereof are wholly or Finance Board, being tariffs mainly of a religious or political drawn up in such detail and nature, and no advertisement published in such form as the shall be permitted which is Broadcasting Council shall directed towards any religious or recommend. political end or has any relation to any industrial dispute. (2) Tynwald may, by regulations made on the advice of the Broadcasting (d) No advertisements may be Council, control advertisements for broadcast during the course of: medical, surgical and veterinary goods and services. Pending the enactment (i) any religious service or talk ; of such regulations the "British Code of Standards relating to the Adver- (ii) any government announce- tising of Medicines and Treatments" ment or statement ; shall be observed.

(iii) any speech or talk by an (3) The Lieutenant Governor shall satisfy official of the Government himself that any person appointed of the Isle of Man or the (or elected ) or to be appointed (or Government of the United elected) as a member of the Council Kingdom or a Member of or the Authority has no financial or Tynwald or Member of other interest in an advertising agency either House of Parliament as is likely to affect prejudicially the of the United Kingdom; or discharge by him of his functions as

Standing Committee on Common Interests of I.O.M. and U.K. — Statement by Mr. Speaker on Manx Radio. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973 T415

such a member. For this purpose, that (a) hours of broadcasting; person shall, whenever the Lieutenant Governor requests him to do so, (b) the greatest amount of time to whether before or during the currency be given to advertisements in any of his appointment, furnish the Lieu- hour or other period; tenant Governor with such relevant information as the latter considers (4) A person shall not broadcast a talk necessary. on (i) a medical or (ii) a veterinary subject unless the text has been Other Controls over the Authority approved by or on behalf of (i) the Chief Medical Officer of Health or 52. It would be enacted that: (ii) the Chief Veterinary Officer of the Government of the Isle of Man, (1) The Lieutenant Governor, on the as the case may be. advice of Executive Council or the Brodacasting Council, may, if he Finance considered it in the public interest so to do, from time to time by Notice 53. (I) The Authority, after an initial in writing require the Authority to period when Government would refrain at any specified time or at all finance it, must be self-supporting, times from broadcasting any matter or financing its capital and operating matter of any class specified in such expenses from advertisement revenues. Notice, and may at any time or times Any balance remaining after meeting vary or revoke any such Notice. This all such expenses, and creating or provision shall extend to giving direc- increasing any reserve fund to be tions as to the classes and descriptions applied for the purposes of the of advertisements which must not be Authority approved by the Finance broadcast and as to the broadcasts or Board, shall be paid to the Treasurer classes of broadcast during which for the credit of the General Revenue advertisements may not be broadcast. of the Island. (2) The Authority would be required to (2) The Lieutenant Governor may, on compile and maintain, in a form the advice of Executive Council, at approved by the Finance Board, any time by Notice in writing require financial accounts (Income and Ex- the Authority to broadcast at such penditure and a Balance Sheet) in times and from such stations as may respect of its operations ; to have be specified in the Notice any an- them annually audited by auditors nouncement or statement on behalf approved by the Finance Board; to of the Government of the Isle of Man supplement them with such additional or the Government of the United information as that Board might call Kingdom so specified. for; and to send copies of such audited accounts to Tynwald, to the (3) The Lieutenant Governor may from Broadcasting Council and to such time to time, on the advice of the other persons and bodies as the Broadcasting Council, by Notice in Lieutenant Governor shall by Notice writing prescribe: direct.

Standing Committee on Common interests of I.O.M. and U.K. — Statement by Mr. Speaker on Manx Radio. T416 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

(3) The expenses of the Isle of Man Sir Henry Sogden: Are we going to say Broadcasting Council, including the anything, Your Excellency? remuneration and expenses of its members and secretary, would be met The Governor: Questions may be put to a out of the surplus income of the member who makes a statement but there Authority insofar as it was sufficient should not be a debate because there is therefor. no question before the House.

Annual Report Sir Henry Sugden: Well, if I may now put a question to the Speaker and it is this, that 54. The Authority would be required to on my wireless set which is a sound set I prepare an Annual Report on its operations get the news from Belfast and that undoubt- during the preceding financial year, in such edly spills into this Island. form and with such information on its finance, administration and work generally The Speaker: Your Excellency, I can only as the Broadcasting Counbil shall approve confirm what the hon. member has said and and to send copies of such Report to Tyn- inform him that your committee have drawn wald, to the Broadcasting Council and to the attention of Her Majesty's Government such other persons and bodies as the Lieu- to the fact that some sixty commercial tenant Governor shall by Notice direct. stations are being established in the United Kingdom under Government authority, that Frequency and Power spillage from a large number of those stations, ranging from Liverpool up to 55. The above proposals are submitted on Blackburn, Carlisle and, shortly, Workington the assumption that the Manx Broadcasting amongst others, are increasingly evident in Authority is able to broadcast (sound on.ly) the Isle of Man, that it is coming in on a from the Isle of Man on an internationally great strength of signal drowning Manx Radio acceptable medium wave frequency at a completely and that this position is intoler- power, during both daylight hours and hours able as far as the Manx Government are of darkness, sufficient to allow satisfactory concerned. That point has been made with reception of its programmes throughout the clarity, sir, to Her Majesty's Government United Kingdom and the Isle of Man. negotiators.

Conclusion Mr. Crellin: Your Excellency, is the hon. 56. The Tynwald Representatives wish to Mr. Speaker aware of the fact that this record their thanks to H.M. Postmaster- amount of information which he has given General for the assistance, by way of factual us will take a considerable amount of time information and comments, given (without to digest and, in view of that fact while we commitment on either side), by members of were waiting for this report to be produced his staff to Counsel instructed by the Tyn- by his Standing Committee, I certainly was Representatives to prepare these proposals. delaying on Broadcasting Commission, a resolution to this House, that we should Douglas, May, 1968. take the initiative into our hands in this respect, and notify Her Majesty's Govern- ment that we intended to increase the power of Manx Radio to the extent of the power (Questions were then put on the statement.) of our transmitter. Would he not say that

Standing Committee on Common Interests of I.O.M. and U.K. Statement by Mr. Speaker on Manx Radio. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973 T417

•• in the circumstances that it will take such a openly in London with the clear approval long time to read all this that he could of Her Majesty's Government but are assure this Court that the Standing Com- broadcast throughout the length and breadth mittee would support any such resolution of the United Kingdom. That is the first if it were brought forward in the light of point. The second point is that — is it also the fact that now all the avenues, all the not a fair comment to make that if the avenues, have been tried with no success? United Kingdom can hold down the signal strength from Manx Radio until and this The Speaker: I cannot say whether or not - is the point — until after, in the main, these the Standing Committee would support a commercial radio station contracts have resolution the terms of which it is not fully been awarded in regions of the United acquainted with and, in those circumstances, Kingdom bordering on the Northern Irish I cannot give him any such assurances. I Sea, then there will be higher tenders offered would say to the hon. member that the for those obviously more lucrative contracts? report we have given you is as concise as If they were awarded after Manx Radio was we can make it. I apologise for the fact seeping into those areas then the contracts that it appears on your desks this morning, would probably be less attractive. Thirdly, as but it was the wish of your Standing Com- a follow up to the points made by the mittee that fullest information and detailed previous two speakers, would it perhaps not information should be given to the Court, be reasonable interpretation of the wish of but we have been unable to get agreement the Manx public at large if Tynwald were, in from the other sector of the Standing Com- fact, to petition Her Majesty The Queen in mittee to the documents being published in the Privy Council, to seek redress on this full. We have to recognise this point and we long standing grievance? have given you the broad outlines of the negotiation and the conclusion, in the report, The Speaker: Your Excellency, in reply to and I am quite sure the hon. member is the hon. member I would inform this hon. capable of assimilating it and coming to a Court that, throughout the negotiations, the conclusion very quickly on what is before Broacasting Commission and your Standing him at this moment. Committee representatives have worked together as a team and are quite unanimous Mr. Quayle: Your Excellency, I know I in their viewpoint and reaction to all the cannot speak on this, sir, but I can give proposals that they have been considered. The notice of a resolution that the Commission Radio Luxembourg position has been men- will be bringing refer to the Broadcasting tioned and the position of the Island as a Commission — to the next sitting of Tyn- part of that area for which allocation of wald with various alternatives that are signal is made to the United Kingdom as the before Tynwald so that Tynwald may take Sovereign Authority, has been clearly, I a decision in its own right. would say, illustrated t o Her Majesty's Government and, I must agree, without Mr. Clucas: Your Excellency, could I success. With regard to your second point, make just two or three points. The first is one must agree with your conclusions that that the question' of Radio Luxembourg, there are earnings to be made from com- I believe, has been raised and nauseam as an mercial radio operating to a longer con- example of a similar situation whereby the course than to a smaller one and your programmes which are transmitted by Radio conclusion is right in this respect. With Luxembourg are, in the main, produced regard to Tynwald representations to Privy

Standing Committee on Common Interests of 1.0.M. and U.K.—Statement 1-,±, Mr Speaker on Manx Radio. T418 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

Council there are members here who will has received at the hands of the Americans? recall earlier representations were made to the Privy Council on certain points with The Speaker: In fact, Your Excellency, regard to marine broadcasting, in particular, that parallel was drawn very effectively to and it is quite possible that representations to the representatives of Her Majesty's Govern- the Privy Council with regard to revocation ment and I can assure the hon. member that of Orders in Council and control being the fact that Manx Radio has over the past effected from this Island of international years been refused a greater strength of broadcasting which might have a spillage, signal on grounds which have all proved that is a realistic approach as far as I, invalid in the course of time we made very, personally, am concerned. very forcibly to Her Majesty's negotiators.

Mr. Clams: Would not the difference, sir, Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, may I -through you Your Excellency, would not the ask the hon. Mr. Speaker a question? Would difference on this occasion from the previous the Speaker not agree that the crunch of occasion when a similar approach wat made, the whole of this issue is, in fact, con- be that at this time we have gone through stitutional, on that rests everything. The fact pretty well all the steps that arc conceivably that Luxembourg operates into Britain is due open to us and cannot be said to have been to the fact that Luxembourg is an indepen- impatient in the matter? dent State, the Isle of Man is not. The British Government were given powers by, if the The Speaker: Your Excellency, on that Speaker will correct me but I think this point, this is a factor that, of course, your was right, before I came into the House, the Standing Committee has borne in mind, that Postmaster-General was given powers over they were, in fact, acting on behalf of radio in the Isle of Man which he still Tynwald and endeavouring at all times to retains. The cards are in fact all in the hands get a satisfactory conclusion to this long of the British Government because they are outstanding issue and at the end of the quite capable of stopping anyone advertising report you will see a postscript which reflects on a Manx Radio station regardless of our viewpoint. Your members regret that what power we might like to think we they must express disappointment at the could get. All they have got to do is say unyielding attitude adopted by the United — "Thou shalt not advertise on that station Kingdom members which has made nego- in the middle of the Irish Sea" — and all tiataion extremely difficult, if not, impossible. this great hoard of money which we would The Court can now act in whichever way be hoping for would disappear. So I feel it decides. that there is only one way to settle it. I think I would like to ask the Speaker if he Mr. Simcocks: Your Excellency, I would would agree with me, there is only one way like to put two questions to the hon. Mr. to settle this issue, it is constitutional, it is Speaker. One, is it not a fact that whatever the relationship between this Island consti- the merits of the Manx argument might be tutionally and the United Kingdom, and the British representatives cast them away there is only one place where, if we feel we without real consideration? Secondly, was a are not getting our due deserts and our parallel drawn in the meetings of the Com- rights, there is only one place this can be mittee between the treatment which Manx solved and that is where I wanted to go Radio have received at the hands of the originally, six years ago, and if it had not English and the treatment which Concorde been for two members of Tynwald we

Standing Committee on Common Interests of I.O.M. and U.K.— Statement by Mr. Speaker on Manx Radio. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973 T4I9

probably, would have gone there then, to operate at four to twelve kilowatts. the United Nations. There is nowhere else to go to. We are wasting time otherwise. Miss Cowin: Your Excellency, may I ask the last speaker whether he had the hope, once the commercial stations were estab- lished in England, if then he had the hope Mrs., Quayle: Your Excellency, is not the that we would be allowed greater power Minister of Posts and Telecommunications because we were in the position ten years responsible for the content of the pro- ago to have been the doyen of the com- gramme in Britain and is he responsible for mercial radio power in the United Kingdom strength of the radio signals and, if so, in the discussions, were the contents of our then? Manx Radio programmes ever mentioned or was it entirely the strength of the radio The Speaker: Your Excellency, I would signals? assure the hon. member, that my colleagues and I and indeed the Broadcasting Com- mission felt that with the development of The Speaker: The content of programme commercial radio in the United Kingdom has been mentioned in connection with the grounds upon which authority for the control of programme content. When we operation of Manx commercial radio at- a have been advancing a case seeking control greater strength of signal were being refused, in the Isle of Man on the part of the Com- mittee then we have portrayed the fact that those grounds were in fact destroyed and there was no case for withholding this con- programme content emanating from United Kingdom has not been, in our view, to the cession to the Island. This is a point that we have made, but without success. satisfaction of Manx viewers or listeners and that point has been made adequately. With regards to the hon. member for Peel's point, I do not agree with him that the cards have all been played. There are other Courts and other mediums which can yet be used — the Court of Justice, the United Nations, there SUPPLEMENTARY AUTHORITIES - are several ways of tackling this problem. APPROVED. I am quite sure that this Court, after ten years of negotiation, is not going to be The Governor: Item number five. Chair- fobbed off at this stage with the unwilling- man of the Finance Board. ness of Her Majesty's Government to nego- tiate a commercial radio position when they Mr. Bolton : Your Excellency, I beg to themselves arc erecting sixty stations to move —

That Tynwald – (1.1 authorises the Treasurer of the Isle of Man, in respect of the year ended 31st March 19 72– fa) to apply from surplus receipts sums totalling 0.113 in payment of excess net expenditure as set out in Column 3 to the First Schedule hereto: (b) to apply out of the current revenue sums not exceeding £12,159 in payment of net expenditure as set out in Column 4 of the First Schedule hereto: to apply from monies borrowed sums not exceeding £51,547 in payment of the items set out in the Second Schedule hereto; and

Supplementary Authorities — Approved. T420 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

(2) hereby approves of borrowings not exceeding, £27,229 as set out in Column 7 of the Third Schedule hereto being made by the Government under the provisions of the Isle of Man Loans Ac! 1958 for the purpose of meeting expenditure in excess of existing loan sanctions, such borrowings to be repaid within the periods set out in Column 8 of the said Schedule. FIRST SCHEDULE Amount of Amount from Surplus Current Board Item Receipts Revenue 1. No. applied applied 2. . 3. 4. £ £ Gaming Board of Control 1 968 - Government Property Trustees 2 7,391 - Local War Pensions ComMittee .3 - 6 Police Board 4 754 9,603 Tourist Board 5 - 2,550 £9,113 £12,159 SECOND SCHEDULE

Board Item Scheme Vote Actual Excess No. 1 2 3 4 5 6 Agriculture ig Fisheries I New Kipper house 3,170 3,181 11 Education 2 Education Authority Debt - 26,450 26,450 3 Additional Classrooms - Ballakermeen 2,000 2,500 500 4 Onchan School Extension 1,500 2,014 514 5 Modernisation - St. John's 1,600 1,608 8 6 Additional Classrooms - Ramsey G.S. 18,000 19.421 1.421 Local Government 7 Houses - St. John's 3,000 4,173 1,173 8 Houses - Various 300,000 318,570 18,570

Police 9 Provision of House 6,000 6.035 35 Social Security 10 Home for the Elderly - Douglas 65,000 67,086 2,086 Miscellaneous 11 Fuel Oil Stockpiling 126,340 127,119 779 51,547 THIRD SCHEDULE. Board Item Scheme Author- Actual Excess Loan Period ised Sane- (Years) Expendi- tion lure 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Education I Education Authority Debt 26,450 26,450 26,450 30 Miscellaneous 2 Fuel Oil-Stockpiling 126,340 127,119 779 779 20 27,229

Supplementary Authorities - Approved. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973 T421

This resolution is a request for supple- expenditure exceeded loan sanctions. The mentary authorities in connection with pay- Education Authority debt, item 2 in the ments that were made in the year ending second Schedule, arises by reason of the 31st March, 1972, the authorities are mainly replacement of Education Authority bonds required for audit purposes. by Government Debentures and the amount is of course unknown until Bonds fall due for . Members: Agreed. agreed. repayment. It is in effect merely a transfer of debt from the defunct authority to The Governor: You had better say it for Government. A request for the loan sanction the record as long as it is not too long. appears in the third Schedule. The remaining items are payments on schemes approved Mr. Bolton: I agree. The First Schedule by Government, but for which payments for relates to revenue items and provides for the year cannot always be accurately over-spendings to be off-set against addi- assessed in advance. So many factors arise tional income as shown in column three or, in executing building programmes whether for the supplementary votes in column by materials and other factors, that it is four. Item 1, has been occasioned by very difficult for estimates to be exact. In extended gaming facilities, extra expenditure actual fact, building programmes are usually was incurred on salaries, wages, etc. The extra underspent as they fall behind schedule, but facilities brought an increase in royalties a mild winter and the consequence of and additional receipts are used to off-set previous years' undcrspendings did catch up the additional expenditure. The actual sur- on these schemes and over-spendings have plus for the year exceeded the estimate. A resulted, The payments have all been made similar situation arises in item. two, the some time ago, but the necessary approvals ever increasing costs of repairs and main- and loan sanctions are still required. I beg tenance pushed up the expenditure of the to move the resolution, Your Excellency. Government Property Trustees, but rent revisions were negotiated for a number of The Governor: Agreed? properties and surplus receipts for the year were more than sufficient to meet the over- It was agreed. expenditure. Item three is inconsequential and item four has largely been caused by pay increases and extra duty, police pros- ecution costs and vehicle running costs. LIVERPOOL LANDING STAGE — Here again additional receipts have helped INCREASE IN SUM INVOLVED - to reduce the amount of the supplementary APPROVED. vote required. Item five is, I think, the result of a misunderstanding. In fact, the The Governor: Item 6. The Chairman of Tourist Board was under spent for the year the Executive Council. and the money was returned to the Treasurer in 1972/73, however, a supplementary vote Mr. P. Radcliffe : Your Excellency, I beg is necessary in this case to satisfy audit to move— requirements. The second and third Schedules relate to capital expenditure. In the second Whereas tenders have now been received by Schedule there are items where expenditure the Mersey Docks and Harbour Company for the reconstruction of the Princes Landing in the year exceeded the estimate, while the Stage, Liverpool. third Schedule includes items on which Now therefore Tynwald–

Liverpool Landing Stage — Inc ease in Sum Involved — Approved. T422 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

(1) approves of the following amendments to borrow this extra money, having to to the resolution of 19th October 1971 – as finance it at an increased rate of borrowing amended by the resolution of 6th July 1972 - and we did it because we felt at that time, in Schedule 1 for "the sum of f935,000" substitute "the sum of £1,250,000." in the first place, that if the Manx Govern- (2) approves of and sanctions additional ment did not provide the money, if it had borrowings not exceeding £315,000 being made to be borrowed by the Mersey Docks and by the Government under the provisions of the Harbour Board from the Ministries in Isle of Man Loans Act, 1971, such borrowings to be repaid within the period of twenty-five England, who would charge them a full years. economic rate of interest on the capital, this could naturally put up the cost to the Could I first of all enquire if all hon. Isle of Man Steam Packet Company, which members in Tynwald Court have had a would re-act through their charges on their copy circulated to them in reference to the fares and would be detrimental to the history of this resolution this afternoon. If tourist industry of the Isle of Man. So we you have I do not see any point, Your agreed that the Manx Government would Excellency, in going back into history to raise the money and make it available to 1970 to draw the hon. members' attention the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board at as to why this Mersey Liverpool Landing a five per cent. rate of interest but the Stage approval is required. I assume there- capital was to be paid back by the Isle of fore as there is no reaction that you have Man Steam Packet Company over a period all got the history and I would just like to of time. When we had the last meeting with recap briefly, that in 1970 it was stated that the , Mersey Docks and Harbour Board and the landing stage in Liverpool had to be their engineers the main thing that was con- re-built. The first application made to the cerning everybody, I think, was when this Manx Government was a reference to the matter was going to be put into being, re-building of the stage using a certain because the Steam Packet Company were amount of the existing building material very concerned indeed as to the future. that was already in the stage. This was Having been told in 1970 that if the work estimated to cost, at that time, in the region was not done, the Landing Stage would be of £800,000. Finally, when the engineers out of action in 1971, they were naturally were consulted they did not recommend this concerned what was going to happen in 1974 kind of improvement and directed that the if the work was not commenced at once. stage should be re-built and given a lifetime So, we had long discussions on this with of a further twenty-five years and not fifteen. the Committee and basicly you have got It was estimated then that the figure was 2,534 ft. of landing-stage in Liverpool and of going to be in the region of £935,000. Now that approximately 1,200 ft. that had to be this, Your Excellency, brings us up to July rebuilt, 800 ft. for the Isle of Man Steam 1972 when Tynwald agreed that this sum Packet Company's use and somewhere of money would be borrowed for the re- between 300 and 400 ft. for the ferries' use. building of this section of the Liverpool We, in negotiating with the Mersey Docks landing stage. However, when they went and Harbour Board, tried to emphasise the out to tender, the Mersey Docks and urgency of this matter and we talked over Harbour Board people found that the ten- the possibilities of how this could be phased, dering had now risen to somewhere in the but they did say, without any doubt, that region of 11 million actually, £1,200,000. they would have to start and, in the first when we considered this matter naturally place, re-build the ferry landing stage in the Committee were concerned about having conjunction with the Isle of Man Steam

Liverpool Landing Stage — Increase in Sum Involved — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973 T423

Packet Company's 800 ft. so therefore all Ardrossan would have to be withdrawn. the boats using the landing stage would This would be retrograde as such sailings were have to be moved up the stage so that they back timed some years ago from midnight can start at one end to demolish. We did on Saturday in response to requests from the consider all the various aspects of this and Scottish holiday-makers". Thus the floating I think it might be important Your Excel- landing-stage at Liverpool is a must. "Whilst lency, on various things that were discussed, a certain number of passengers originate to first of all deal with the report, where it from and thus return to the town of Liver- refers to what the Isle of Man Steam Packet pool, the majority emanate from other areas Company had to say about it. After all they and thus are reliant on public transport of are the people involved, they are the people some form to reach the port of embarkation. who are going to be re-paying the capital Thus, in deciding a terminal the on-transit and the interest on the borrowing and they has to be considered both from a practical are the people who are bringing to the Isle and financial point of view. There is limited of Man quite large numbers of visitors who, choice of ports on the periphery of the Irish without the landing stage naturally, could Sea and briefly these are"— and here they not function. I think it would be important go on to quote the different ports, because today for us to consider what they have naturally when we were asked to provide this said and if you would look at page 5 of extra amount of money we did put forward my report and I think they coincide with the question — well what is the alternative? the reports you have, the Steam Packet Can we save on this expenditure by moving Company comment, "it would be obvious to some other ports? Hon. members have in that the vast majority of the traffic travels their reports the comments made by the on Saturdays and no system of control Steam Packet Company in reference to or regulation is imposed on passengers, that Holyhead, Llandudno, Fleetwood, Preston, is, all those arriving at the piers, with or Heysham and Workington, and these com- without pre-booked tickets, are transported ments substantiate the Steam Packet Com- that day. This necessitates up to ten sailings pany's views as regarding alternative ports a day in each direction and to effect such and also that other berthage facilities in a programme it is vital for a vessel to Liverpool are inappropriate. The Steam achieve a double trip, that is Douglas back Packet Company were also asked to consider to Douglas in nine to ten hours maximum. the loading system and their report is as Such a schedule would be impossible if we follows — "An investigation was also made were called on to enter a loch system, such of the possibility of extending the roll-on/ as obtains in Liverpool docks. Further to roll-off facilities and changing the loading this however, the operation from a dock system from one of side loading to front would add about one hour to the voyage loading in order to utilise the docking areas time. Currently the first morning steamer rather than the landing stages. The Steam from Liverpool on a Saturday morning Packet Company's argument against these arrives at Douglas in sufficient time to features can be summarised as follows:— disembark passengers, re-load and sail to (a) it is not possible to build a low loader Ardrossan at 3 ,p.m. Such a sailing time at Princes Landing stage in the dock system. ensures passengers are in Glasgow in time (b) Only cargo at present is roll-on/roll-off" to connect with local 'buses etc., before they and I think you will note in the comments finish for the night. Any later sailing time of the report it says "not passengers". Now from Douglas would miss these connections I queried this because it sounded rather and thus the Saturday afternoon sailing to funny to put in a report only cargo at present

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is roll-on and roll-off and not passengers loading gives a choice of any one of six berths because anybody realises that passengers (or Peel as an alternative), stern loading do not roll-on or roll-off but what the Steam would require to centralise on one berth Packet Company were emphasising was what which may not be tenable at all times; in they are chiefly concerned about is the future years we look to an extension of car conveyance of pasengers to the Isle of Man ferry services to ports where terminal stern not so much as cargo. Naturally, they are loading ramps may not be available. The therefore emphasising the fact that they want first of these three points has of course to be able to continue with their present been substantiated; the second is not so boats under the present system and therefore important when the emphasis is on com- do not see it feaible at this stage to go mercial traffic; but the exact opposite when for roll-on/roll-off. "(e) Only two berths passengers are involved; the third of course in Douglas would be suitable and Peel could is proved, as now we operate services to not be used as an alternative port in bad Ardrossan and to Belfast. So far as the weather. At present it is 6 in Douglas and effects in the Isle of Man economy is con- Peel with the current system. (d) Side loading cerned, again this is on the passenger rather with the current system. (d) Side loading than the commercial side. As you are aware allows use also of all ports in the Irish Sea". 'there is very little export from the Isle of This is very important to the Steam Packet Man and this is dealt with in containers Company. "(e) front loading would require per cargo service. Other than in the Autumn, the replacement of the fleet" We are all when the herring are exported fish is im- aware of what it costs to build boats today ported to the Island, not exported, but in and the Steam Packet Company very, small quantities for local consumption. The recently have built two new boats. The shell fish, t he escallops, are shipped in Steam Packet Company also state "There is frozen containers. On the passenger side car no doubt that the most efficient roll-on/roll- imports increased by fifty per cent. the first off vessels are those of the standard bow/stern year a roll-on/roll-off vessel was introduced loading type as these allow the head room and there has been a regular increase since essential for commercial vehicles." Thcy so that in ten years of operation, the traffic state" We faced this problem in 1959 when has quadrupled. Because of duties on petrol designing our first such vessel. We had no and common purse settlement so far as doubt as to which would be the most passengers are concerned, the car ferries thus profitable to this Company, but we had to have had a beneficial effect on the economy consider this from the Island's and the of the Island". So bearing all these factors practical point of view. We decided the in mind, Your Excellency, the Committee principal emphasis must be to the passengers felt that they had to come forward today to and their accompanied vehicles and to fit get the consent of Tynwald for an increased in with the Company's transport policy, borrowing to cover the now suggested costs operation would require to be from the same because the figure quoted by the tenderer Liverpool terminal as used by the other only stands until March. If we do not get passenger vehicles. This meant we had to this matter confirmed by that time, it is a adopt side-loading with the consequent fixed tender, and realising the increase restricted headroom. However, our views continually of costs and labour and materials were that the potential existed to support a we may find ourselves in a situation (a) it passenger/car ferry; our principal port in the going to cost us a considerable amount more Isle of Man is Douglas which is an open money and (b) that there could be a pos- and unprotected harbour and whereas side- sibility that whereas at the present moment

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the section of the landing-stage which event- Harbour Board's memo' that was only sent ually is going to be demolished is kept in to the Treasury on the Monday. I was order to get us through this period of time rather disturbed to find the Harbour Board's when the other sections are being re-built. memo' being quoted partly verbatim and the If we do not get on with it at once we may conclusion of this Liaison Committee then find ourselves in 1975 possibly the diffie,ulty appeared at the end of the whole report of getting our boats in and out of Liverpool. saying they had, in fact, considered the I beg to move Your Excellency the res- Harbour Board's memorandum. Now I know olution standing in my name. this to be facts but they could not have considered it because the Liaison Committee Mr. Bolton: Your Excellency, I beg to did not sit on that Monday. So I do not second. know who put this in but certainly the Liaison Committee did not put this in. I do Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, I do not believe that the Harbour Board's views not want to labour this issue today but have in fact been sufficiently seriously I am rather disturbed over two matters considered and as this involves a con- concerning the facilities for handling both siderable sum of money I feel it only right passengers and cargo traffic to and from the that Tynwald should be given the oppor- Isle of Man. As all members of Tynwald tunity of having a very close look — it is are aware Tynwald did authorise the only a month after all — at the National Harbour Board almost two years ago to Ports Council report. Nbw 1 admit that the seek the advice of the National Ports Council Steam Packet Company, a private company, of the United Kingdom in carrying out a has served this Island extremely well but survey of port facilities in the Isle of Man. even they can make mistakes. As we all Naturally in doing that it included the know they made a serious mistake over facilities surrounding the Isle of Man in the cargo handling and let us face this quite Irish Sea to which we have to initially clearly. The result was that a little firm operate. As I told Tynwald earlier in this coming into the same business is now present session we hope to have it in the handling round about half, perhaps more hands of members of Tynwald within a than half of all the cargo coming into the fortnight, at the most three weeks. However, Isle of Man, to the loss of the Steam Packet we certainly hope to have that report placed Company. We, as a Board, feel that if before Tynwald at its next session. I am Tynwald accepts what is said here today, rather disturbed that throughout these Tynwald will be perpetuating mistakes which negotiations not once has this Select Com- have occured in the past. The big problem, mittee of Tynwald approached the Harbour I think, facing the Island and the Steam Board, which is the natural Board I would Packet Company is the problem of type of have thought, for harbours in the Isle of ship and type of facility, it is as simple as Man, in matters associated with the sea, that. The Steam Packet Company I think, until, as the result of a query I made in at that time quite rightly, decided on their the House of Keys, the Harbour Board a new type of car ferry because in the Isle of week last Friday were asked to submit a Man we were not making available a memo to the Treasury on the following modern facility for them to operate from. Monday, this the Board did. When I arrived By a modern facility I mean and my for the session of the Keys last week, I Board mean a roll-on through cargo vessel discovered on my ,table this yellow paper. operating into a roll-on/roll-off handling Included in that are extracts from the facility bow or stern. It has been said that

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very few of these facilities exist, this is, in clearly stated to us that this is the future fact, not quite true. The British Govern- and not to be kidded on to anything else at ment's policy is to allow ports in the United all, even on the Atlantic service today, and Kingdom, and to certain extent support them. the Atlantic is a long way to haul stuff, they They have not done this in the case of are already converting to roll-on/roll-off Liverpool for a very good reason — the vessels bow and stern loading. There is a introduction of these facilities, Today in very highly specialist type of vessel I will the Irish Sea area there are roll-on/roll-off admit on the Atlantic run, where the whole facilities surrounding the Isle of Man and side of the ship drops down. This is purely in South-West Scotland, at Ardrossan, for the quick handling of cars. There is this Belfast, Cork, Dublin, Fishguard, Heysham, terrible problem you have in dock areas, Larne, in a dock at Liverpool, Preston, in Britain especially, of cranage and dock Rosslare and Stranraer, The efficiency labour, the only way you can overcome this of this type of handling facilities is is by through-put vessels and cargo facilities. no doubt much superior, they arc much We also looked at the Steam Packet's prob- superior to the present system we have lem and the type of vessel they have got. We operating. My Board went to visit the Lame all know in the wintertime in the Isle of ferry service. Lame, like the Isle of. Man, Man the Steam Packet run — and we are operates passenger cargo services. The cargo very lucky that the Company carry this services have virtually gone, the whole lot service — a daily schedule service to and has been handled by roll-on/roll-off vessels. from Liverpool whenever the weather is We watched a passenger cargo boat arrive at good. Very rarely has it ceased to sail, the Lame facility and in fifteen minutes regardless of weather. When we consider exactly that ship was emptied and ready to go that on top of this the Isle of Man popu- out. Fifteen minutes. lation is also paying the cost of a cargo service operating to the Island, quite sepa- rately from the passenger service, this to our Mr. MacLeod: Was there anybody on it? mind undoubtedly increases the cost of almost everything that comes in or goes out Mr. MacDonald: Yes. We watched the of the Island. I was only thinking of this passengers come off, they have not the the other day. Undoubtedly, the Chairman excellent passenger handling facilities there of the Board of Agriculture would agree that we have in the Isle of Man. They have with me here, in the realm of feeding stuffs. nothing like the sea terminal that we have We go through all the laborious process of got. What really interested us was the cargo loading and unloading through normal hatch handling, the trailers rolling off, Eighty-six ships. There would be nothing to stop stuff long trailers were cleared and away from the coming all the way from the continent today dock area in fifteen minutes. Besides con- now we are in the E.E.C. or coming from sidering the Larne facility we have also anywhere, and rolling straight aboard the consulted the Irish Government both South ship with the material already in its container and North. The Northern Irish Govern- and being delivered direct to the farmer in ment are at the moment completing a the Isle of Man. This is modern handling magnificent facility at Warren Point once methods. So my Board feel that Tynwald again with roll-on/roll-off berths. When my would be really making a big mistake today Board looked at this and when we discussed to go on with the normal landing facility, this originally with the National Ports at Liverpool, the old landing stage. I noticed Council, the National Ports Council quite in the Yellow Report that the Steam Packet,

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quite rightly, said that they were looking years, it can all be handled by one vessel, for a 25 year facility. This is what the that one daily vessel from the port of National Ports Council were told by the Liverpool if necessary to the Isle of Man ; Harbour Board, with Tynwald agreement. all though the long winter period that one The Steam Packet say that they were very vessel of the right type could not only perturbed that they did not get from the handle the passenger requirements, but also Mersey Docks and Harbour Board — which all the cargo requirements of the Isle of has not been renowned for efficiency — they Man. In fact, they go so far as to say the could not get from them a 25 year facility. cargo requirements for the Isle of Man could The most that could be offered was a 15 year be handled in three days by such a vessel. facility; this is in this Yellow Report. So that would mean we would not need operating into our Island the normal type, Mr. Irving: Not now. old-fashioned, small cargo vessels.

Mr. Bolton: It is 25. Mr. MacLeod: What about livestock? Mr. MacDonald: Wait a minute, I read this yesterday. It did say 15. Mr. MacDonald: Livestock also sir can be carried on through cargo facilities. They Members: 25. carry them now to Ireland and back from Ireland, mainly from Ireland to England in Mr. MacDonald: That is right, yes. By very large quantities. So on behalf of the increasing the method of construction they Harbour Board today I have circulated an have agreed to a 25 year facility. However, amendment. I know there is always panic I feel that if we are going to do this, then in Tynwald. We are always told of all the somewhere in that Liverpool area —if Liver- big mistakes we have made in the past; we pool is, in the opinion of the British have always been told unless we do it this Government to remain a passenger handling week there will be no boats sailing in five port at all, because the British Government years' time or three years' time. We are in the long run who have to foot the bill always told this. Things always come to us for services into and out of Liverpool by at the last minute, when unless we are subsidies to rail services — if Liverpool is prepared to vote sums of the money, I will to remain we feel very strongly, I think the admit the Steam Packet is probably going Transport Commission when they sat, and to have to repay all this money if they this is quite a while ago correct me if I am can do it. wrong in this, they thought at that time that roll-on/roll-through facilities were a must in Mr. Bell: Without any charge on the the future for this Island. The Board feel vessels? that any facilities constructed in Liverpool — and we have very good engineers available Mr. MacDonald: Yes, but I am not today must include facilities for roll-on- worried about that because I think the through cargo handling. What I could Steam Packet do an excellent job. You imagine in the wintertime is that all the know, I honestly believe they do. cargo — and again here the National Ports Council consider this the correct method - Mr. MacLeod: They pay a good dividend. all the cargo of the Isle of Man, and they have forecast cargo requirements for 25 Mr. MacDonald: It is a fact they do a

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good job. It is clearly shown in the fact that money. The Merseyside as we all know is they are today the second oldest passenger one of the worst operating ports in Britain line operating out of British Ports. I would today, with all due respect to dockers and hate to see them make the same mistake everyone else. This is why company after they made over cargo handling with regard company are deserting the Merseyside, why to passenger services. I have circulated this shipping company after shipping company amendment because I feel, and my Board are operating out of other ports. I would feel that one month is neither here nor there hate to see us committed to a policy of in the light of the Isle of Man. I know it providing facilities in another national state. will be said, as I just said, it will be said Here, I think I should draw attention to again, vital immediate decision. Immediate the fact, that whenever we want something decisions costing £300,000 are big decisions. which is to our benefit the British Govern- £300,000, as has been found out recently, is ment will not give it to us; Manx Radio is a a lot of money to this Island. The total classic example. When something is required cost of this, over £1,000,000 is a colossal across the water I do not see them rushing sum of money to this Island, and we must to assist us; I do not see the British Govern- be absolutely certain that what we are ment rushing in to help in providing a doing is, in fact, the right thing for the facility on the other side of the Irish Sea in services to and from our Island. I have no their own land, in their own territory, with doubt at all that if Tynwald ever can their own money. They expect us to provide see that this type of consortium was neces- a facility. This, to my mind, is absolutely sary, well naturally at this end we would unheard of anywhere else in the world. What require the same facilities. We would require frightens me is that this sort of nonsense at this end, in Douglas probably, a roll-on, could creep. We have already had a case, roll-off facility. I believe, and my Board fortunately it proved to be a little bit of panic believe, quite honestly and sincerely, that this which I do not want us to do today, where is necessary, and very necessary. It has been we had the same sort of suggestion coming mentioned, the problem of Peel. But when up in Glasson. That because Manx cargos you have studied the number of times that going to the port of Glasson were rolling passenger boats have had to go to Peel, they over roads and the roads were being are in fact few and far between. Some years damaged by containers, the Manx taxpayer perhaps they built up to eleven or twelve should foot the bill for the road to the times, some years they do not go to Peel at Glasson dock. Once we start this, where do all. But with proper facilities we are quite we end? Once we start putting the Manx convinced — facilities improyed since the taxpayers' money into fixed installations in days of Lord Loch when the Manx people other countries, just where does it end? Does were powerless in the Isle of Man, but with it mean that when the Liverpool airport, proper modernised facilities there would be which is we all know, rather dicey financially, no need for a boat to go to Peel at all. So seriously suffering financially, does it mean I would stress to Tynwald, and undoubtedly that when the Liverpool airport begins to my Board members will also speak on this, look as if it needs a bit of boosting and other members I know are interested, I do the British Government will not boost it — not believe that we are in such a panic that does it mean they also can come to the Manx today, urgently, rapidly, we must commit Government and say, well, it is your aero- ourselves to a facility which I feel and my planes nipping backwards and forwards, Board feel will in the long run prove to be including others of course, so we we will a big waste of Steam Packet Company expect you to contribute, or the airline corn-

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pany to contribute with assistance from the of Man, when they can do it in Liverpool. Manx Government for the maintenance and There is no doubt that Liverpool is the the upkeep of Liverpool airport? Does it natural gathering ground for the vast mean that when we go to other ports around majority of our visitors. This is being put the Irish Sea, they will also say that it is the forward solely in the interests of tourism, Manx taxpayer who is reaping the benefit and because of the value to the Isle of Man so he must pay. I feel we would be making of our tourist industry. There is no other a very, very big mistake to rush into this. justification for the proposal that is before I know, perhaps the committee have had the Court. I think that if hon. members long talks with the Steam Packet Company, study the Report that has been included 1 have read all of this, but I am not convinced from the Steam Packet Company directors that what they are committing us to today it will be readily understood that there is is in fact very clearly thought out, and I do nowhere else for them to go. The other not believe that this is the future cargo or suggestion that has been made is that the passenger handling arrangement that the Isle Steam Packet Company's ships could use a of Man needs and the Isle of Man should dock. They have pointed out on a number of be looking for, and I would beg to move my occasions that it is necessary for their ships amendment. to travel backwards and forwards between Liverpool and Douglas a number of times Mr. Bolton : Your Excellency, I do wish each day at certain times of the year, and to support the resolution that has been they say ten sailings into Douglas and ten moved by the hon. member, the Chairman of sailings out, between Liverpool and Douglas. Executive Council, and I think perhaps, in They must turn round very, very quickly answer to some of the remarks that have and they must be in a position where they been made by the hon. member for Peel, a can run alongside rather than have to go little more should be said at this stage, through a dock or into a lack, It is for this rather than wait for the hon. member to reason that they are satisfied that the reply to the debate. In the first case, I think landing-stage is absolutely essential if they we should state quite clearly why Liverpool are to get the quick turn round during the is the place chosen to be developed in this season for our visiting industry. When we way. We are assured that every effort has come to consider the question of the landing- been made by the Isle of Man Steam Packet stage, I think it has been within knowledge Company to find an alternative port that of members of Tynwald for a very long was satisfactory from the point of view of time that the landing-stage was deteriorating their use. There is not another port on the rapidly, and that the Mersey Docks and West coast of England that will suit their Harbour Board, as they were, were very needs. We must also bear in mind that apart concerned about its condition. It has de- altogether from the facilities for putting in teriorated more and more, and we know a boat, we must find the port which provides that even if the work is commenced, it the gathering ground in England for the cannot be completed before October 1974, people who wish to come here. If we said and the representatives of the Mersey Whitehaven is suitable we could not expect Docks and Harbour Company have told the people whom we want to come here to us that thew even have grave doubts travel to Whitehaven in order to get here. during the season of 1974, and it must, in the They have explored even Holyhead, but can interests of the Isle of Man and our tourist one imagine people travelling all the way to industry, continue to operate during the 1973 Holyhead in order to embark for the Isle season and during the 1974 season. These

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are the facts which we have discovered, and the exact engineering term that is used, but these are the reasons why we have come prices have been given for particular parts forward at this moment with a proposal which of the work. This, we hope, will be the limit. we know is to spend an enormous sum of We do know that certain changes are bound money, particularly by comparison with the to take place and provision is made in the amount that was originally stated. The figure that we are at present proposing to landing-stage, when the new one is com- cover that particular matter. I am very pleted, will consist of about 1,150 feet of interested to hear what the hon. member the length. 800 feet is required for the Steam Chairman of the Harbour Board has to say Packet Company vessels; 350 feet is required about roll-on/roll-off vessels. We are not for the accommodation of the ferries starting a tourist industry, or hoping to get crossing the river, backwards and forwards. one started in five years' time. We are in the They have informed us that of the 350 feet middle of an emergency. If we are to have they were to receive a contribution of 25 this roll-onfroll-off method, then we have per cent. of the cost from the Mersey got to get completely new facilities in Transport Executive, and they were to Douglas to receive these ships, you have got receive a 50 per cent, grant from the to get completely new facilities in Liverpool Ministry of the Environment. They have to receive the ships, we have got to be quite now obtained new tenders which are far in sure that somebody in Liverpool is prepared excess of anything that they had before. to do it, and then we have got to re-equip Therefore they must now go and re-negotiate the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company with the Mersey Passenger Transport Exec- with the necessary ships. This is not a short utive and with the Ministry of the Environ- term policy; this is a long term. If we are ment. They must do it quickly because the to continue with our tourist industry, which 1st April is the date on which the contract many will readily pay lip service to and will must be accepted, otherwise the cost is say this is the life blood of the Island, ... possibly to be vastly increased. So that we have got very, very little time. We can make Mr. Irving: He is agin it. our minds up on this matter. I may say that we were so concerned as a committee about Mr. Bolton: He is agin it. the possible delay that we did take the opportunity, when representatives of the Mr. MacDonald: I think it should pay Home Office were here a fortnight ago, to its own way. press on them the necessity for the con- sideration by the Ministry of the Environ- Mr. Bolton: The position is this, that if ment of ihis particular matter as a matter we are to maintain tourism in the Isle of of urgency and we asked them if they could Man then we must continue to bring them possibly urge the Ministry of the Environ- here and we must continue to bring them ment to deal with it quickly in order to here in large numbers on the boats of the eliminate the possibility of the Isle of Man Isle of Man Steam Packet Company. It is finding the cost escalating again by reason for this reason that we feel that although of their delay. The 1st April, as I say, is this bill is exorbitant, and although it hurts the day on which the contract must be us all to have to pay it, at the same time cleared with the contractors, and there is a we do feel as a committee that there is no fixed contract. It is only fair, I think, to say alternative whatever to our bringing forward that it is a fixed price contract, but it is a this resolution. We must safeguard the Isle fixed measured contract. I have forgotten of Man, and we must meet the bill. I think

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the committee has done extremely well in survey coming up within the next month and the past — although I say it myself — in containing recommendations in all sorts of making the necessary arrangements regarding ways, that we should take such a momentous the financing of this matter through the Isle decision as that today which will neutralise of Man Steam Packet Company. I think any ability of this Government without the that the arrangements that have been made expenditure of vast sums of money in have been made very, very satisfactorily and addition to this resolution here today, to wisely and approved by Tynwald in their neutralise the ability of this Government to wisdom. The main point now is that costs decide in the light of modern developments are escalating; we know if we put it off it what is best and what are the best facilities, is going to cost us a great deal more month both at the Douglas and Liverpool end, of by month by month, and I think we should that particular service. What we are saying take the bull by the horns, get the contract is, that the question of roll-on/roll-off signed and hope and trust that the Mersey facilities, which as you heard earlier are Docks and Harbour Company will be able now available at eleven ports in and around to commence work immediately after the the Irish Sea and south-west Scotland, the 1st April 1973. number of these ports is likely to increase not diminish. We feel that there ought to be Mr. Clucas: Your Excellency, I rise to reciprocal facilities at each end of the second the amendment proposed by the hon. Liverpool - Douglas service. What we are member for Peel, because it is after all saying is, examine the question thoroughly patently obvious I think now that, this is from the Isle of Man end, and then take the third occasion on which this Court has the decision in respect of the Liverpool had to consider this one item, the final cost terminal in the light of that knowledge. This of this reconstruction is going to be well in seems to me eminently reasonable, and excess of £1,500,000. My concern, and I am indeed I would have thought that to do sure the concern of all members of this otherwise was the height of folly. We are Court, is to ensure that this money that we told by the hon. Chairman of the Finance vote here today is spent in the most advan- Board, this is a matter of urgency, the tageous way to ensure that the lifeline which Department of the Environment is breathing is the Liverpool - Douglas service, is pepet- down our necks. The very first line of this uated in the best interests of the Isle of Man. Yellow Paper says that in November 1970, The last speaker, the hon. member of the etc., etc. What in Heaven's name has Council, Mr. Bolton, seemed to imply that happened in the intervening period? I will the Chairman of the Harbour Board was tell you what. In October 1971, that is anti-the Liverpool service. He is not anti- sixteen months ago, Tynwald authorised the Liverpool service, and nor is the Harbour the expenditure of £800,000 towards the Board. What we say is that if you in fact go renewal of this facility, and I must ask ahead with this scheme now, what you are what on earth has happened in those inter- in effect saying is, when this scheme is vening sixteen months? Are we to under- completed in October 1974 and it will have stand, Mr. Bolton, that nothing has been a guaranteed lifetime of 25 years, you are done? saying that we wish to replace the existing facilities in Liverpool with similar facilities, Mr. Bolton: Ask His Excellency? renewed completely, which will then be unaltered until October 1999. 1. do not believe Mr. Clucas: No, it was you who made the myself that with a National Ports Council remark, it was you who said that the

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Department of the Environment were Mr. MacDonald: He is being honest with breathing down our necks, and that this the people. matter was urgent. Mr. Irving: He is not being honest with Mr. Bolton: I did not say that. the people sir. It is the Harbour Board who are trying to create the panic this morning. Mr. Clucas: Let us get on. You most There is no panic amongst other hon. certainly did. members of the Court, but there is concern and there is concern with me that if we do Mr. Bolton: I did not. not go ahead with this scheme as quickly as we can then we jeopardise future tourist Mr. Clucas: I think you used the word seasons in the Isle of Man. The hon. member "Ministry" of the Environment. must be well aware that the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board have said that they are The Governor: In the interests of accuracy taking all possible steps to keep the stage Mr. Bolton was breathing down the Minister going in 1974, but a bad weather disaster of Environment's neck, not vice versa. could occur. If there is a bad weather disaster sir in the course of construction of this landing-stage, then the Steam Packet Com- Mr. Clucas: Thank you Your Excellency. pany have either to find another port instead The point is clearly made however that we of Liverpool, which does not exist, or they must make a quick snap decision on this. have to use the docks in Liverpool. If they I say, sixteen months ago we took the have to use the docks in Liverpool we can decision to renew this facility, and I would forget thousands upon thousands of pas- like to know why the work has not been sengers coming by sea to this Isle of Man advanced to a further stage than is quite because they cannot sir cope with the apparent from the document which has demand in the peak months by operating, been circulated to us today. I think it is as the hon. member has said, up to ten perfectly clear that the Isle of Man Harbour services a day each way. There is no panic Board is definitely not of the opinion that sir, but there is concern on the part of the we should replace the existing facilities in Mersey Docks and Harbour Board, the Liverpool with identical facilities. We must Steam Packet Company, certainly this com- examine the question thoroughly from a mittee and I would have thought, amongst Manx angle, and 1 would urge very much those members of the Tourist Board who hon. members of this Court to support the understood the position. The hon. member amendment so that the matter can be for Peel has tabled an amendment. He examined anti brought back to this Court tables an amendment without even knowing at the earliest opportunity when we are in that the stage is going to last 25 years possession of the facts. instead of 15 years.

Mr. Irving: Your Excellency, it is rather Mr. MacDonald: We all make mistakes. interesting sir to see a member of the Tourist Board supporting a motion which Mr. Irving : How many other miscalcu- to my mind threatens certainly the next two lations has he made that have caused this or three tourist seasons in the Isle of Man amendment to be tabled. He says, he opposes with such deep emotion. I would have any payment for this landing-stage. If the expected him to react the other way sir. United Kingdom Government are not going

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to pay, and the Manx Government are not real danger delay is probably going to going to pay, who is going to pay for this cost us hundreds of thousands of pounds. landing-stage? Are we to say we do not (Interruption.) The hon. member for Ayre, want it any more? Are we to say we are Mr. Clucas, has said why has the work not going to let it go? The hon. member says proceeded? It is not the fault of hon. there are other ports. We know very well members of this Court that work has not there are no other ports suitable for use proceeded. for large scale movement of traffic to the Isle of Man other than Liverpool. There are Mr. Clucas: Why has it not? no other ports with the transit arrangements to the Port in England and from the port. Mr. Irving: It is not the fault of the We certainly, as the hon. member has said, committee, or of the Harbour Board. (Inter- cannot consider the use of Holyhead. We ruptions.) The fact is that work has not gone cannot expect tourists to this Island to pay on up to now, and we must now say that a great deal more fare to Holyhead to get it is essential that the Mersey Docks and to the Isle of Man. We have been told sir Harbour Board be put in a position where there is a completion target date of October they can commence the work immediately. 1974. That target date of 1974 includes one Never mind what has happened in the past winter of possibly bad weather, and I think sir, never mind the delay. There has been a this is important; one winter only in the delay — let us face up to it. Let us face construction of this stage with possibly a up to the fact sir that we are going to have bad weather disaster. If we agree to this to spend this money if we want a landing- amendment it means that the construction stage in Liverpool. We cannot delay it of this new stage will occupy two winters. because of the state of the existing landing- Ir other hon, members are prepared to take stage. We are faced with the possibility at the risk of two winters' work on a new any time now that the Liverpool landing- landing-stage in the Mersey, then I am not. stage may be closed, and we cannot afford I hope hon. members will realise there to be open to this sort of thing happening. should be concern now because there could I hope hon. members today will reject be a disaster which would restrict greatly the amendment and vote for the proposal passenger sea traffic to the Isle of Man. I before us. hope sir that hon. members will realise that even if this amendment is accepted, The Speaker: Your Excellency, the hon. nothing very much is likely to happen, member who has just sat down has expressed except we might have some more infor- concern that the Harbour Board should seek mation on the roll-off/roll-on arrangements. to impede developments which he considers I do not believe for one moment that even will jeopardise the tourist trade in possibly if a Select Committee is appointed it will 1974/75. I think probably my concern is that change the proposal before hon. members we should get our patterns right for the today. We have agreed this in October 1971; future, and not so much that we need do this, we have been into it again in 1972, and at but that it has not already been done, Why this stage hon. members want to have a have not the Board, who are responsible for Select Committee on the question. This is harbours in the Isle of Man, been in on the ridiculous. The only reason that this pro- act? Why has not there been the fullest con- posal is before the Court again today is sultation between the bodies concerned in because of increased costs. Apart from the this and a unanimity of viewpoint achieved, danger of delay — and I believe there is instead of coming to the Court with a Yellow

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Paper which we are told embodies state- might be satisfied, I do not know, I would ments that are totally inaccurate, and which like to see this Report. imply that the Harbour Board's viewpoint stated by the Harbour Board's Chairman Mr. Bolton: It is too late. has been considered by the committee of Executive Council, and then there are con- The Speaker: You say it is too late. Every clusions. He tells us categorically that it was time we have a major proposal before this never examined by that committee. If the Court it is always too late. You have got to hon. members would have told us that they act now, and that one has been shot down had examined the Harbour Board's pro- in flames time after time. We have dealt posals, frankly I would have been a lot in the past with Ardrossan, we have dealt happier. What particularly concerns me with Fleetwood, we have dealt with a today, too, is the fact that a statement, or whole host of withdrawals of services indeed a judgement if you like, that we from this Island, and we have seen the asked for in connection with this Report changes that have taken place in connection on channel operation, is to be forthcoming with operations such as Fleetwood where we within three weeks. It may not affect this refused to put money in. I am not saying Report one little bit. On the other hand, it we should refuse to put money in here, but may be vital to it. The urgency is well frankly I am amazed — and I say it now - emphasised. Hon. members, in this matter of that the Manx Government did not make urgency and costings we have embodied an approaches to the United Kingdom Govern- escalation greater than all the so-called ment when the particular Bill in relation to mistakes of the past, be it Grand Island, the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board was the Wild Life, Ramsey Shipyard, the Peveril; going through Parliament. That was an op- the whole lot do not amount to the degree of portune time to have moved. escalation that you have in this particular estimate. They have all been condemned from time to time by members of this Court as foolhardy enterprises. Are we embarking Mr. Bolton: Did they not? on a foolhardy enterprise today? I would like to be assured that we are not, and that we are not going to find ourselves as a The Speaker: Well, if they did I have not result of a Report coming forward very seen it on the record anywhere, nor have I shortly, in a position that we will have to been informed as to what approaches were change all our plans in mid-stream at even made, and as a member of the Court I greater cost. This is what worries me, and would expect to know. So that I am in quite honestly I would like to hear the doubt, and I would hesitate to decide how I viewpoint of other members. We have heard am going to vote on this issue at this two members of the Harbour Board, and moment. My tendency is to vote in favour we have heard the whole of the committee of the amendment. that have been negotiating, and my regret is that they have not got together. But I The Governor: The Court will now am unhappy that here today we have this adjourn until 2.30 p.m. We will take the escalating cost, we have a promised Report, Petitions at 4.30 p.m. and I am not satisfied that the outcome is going to be one which is going to be the solution at this stage. In a month's time I The Court adjourned for lunch.

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LIVERPOOL LANDING STAGE - out by the Chairman of the Harbour Board DEBATE CONTINUED. on this question of a particular type of berth at both ends. I do feel that if the report The Governor: Does any other hon. that he suggests is ready to come in front member wish to speak? of us gives some indication of how we are going on this, that we should at least be Mr. Spittall: Your Excellency, I feel that prepared to wait one month. We could put we are probably over a barrel on this question it down that this one month is a delay from of a landing-stage at Liverpool, something the sixteen months which this thing has has got to be done about it, but I do feel already been delayed, to seventeen. Looking that as the deadline date which this contract at it from that light I would be prepared to has to be accepted is 31st March it is pos- accept the amendment on the new terms, sible for us to wait one month. I would not provided this does not hold it up further accept the amendment in the form it is at than a month. the moment, but I would suggest that if people look at their amendment, accept the Mr. Irving: I wish to speak for the amended first paragraph of it and then go on and then amendment, Your Excellency. I would accept and say and further that the motion was a delay of one month reluctantly because accordingly adjourned in terms of Standing I believe that it is the Government of the Order 17 to a sitting of Tynwald to be held Isle of Man that is setting the pace in this on 20th March next and delete the rest This particular matter. I believe that the Mersey would give perhaps time for the Harbour Docks and Harbour Board do count on Board to produce this report which you have early acceptance of the contract by the Manx heard so much about, but which we have not Government in order that things may be got. The chances 'are, I feel, that there may speeded up both with the Minister of En- not be anything we can do about it, but at vironment and the ferry services in the least we will not have this report and then say. Mersey. As I said, I accept it reluctantly, well we have been stupid. I believe that this and I hope this will not mean that at the would get us out of all our difficulties and end of two months we may well be faced I do propose that an amendment on these with a contract including several hundred lines should be tabled. thousand more pounds. We arc setting the pace on this. Miss Thornton-Duesbery: I would like to second that, Your Excellency. Mr. Crellin: I would personally support what has been said by the hon. member for Mr. MacDonald: We would accept that, East Douglas, Mr. Irving. Nevertheless. Your Excellency. although I would have voted against the amendment as it was framed originally, I Mr. Moore: I would agree to support the do believe that these two things can go hand second amendment, Your Excellency, because in hand. I believe that there is a great I do feel that we are coming back to the amount of merit in what the hon. and gallant position where eventually we must agree member for Peel has said in his address to with what the Steam Packet want, because , this hon. Court, but as I see it there are eventually they are going to pay the bill. We two problems. There is the short term are borrowing money at this stage and they problem and the long term problem and I are going to pay the bill. However, there believe that these two things can in fact go has been a very strong case indeed, made hand in hand However, as the hon. and

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gallant member for Peel has said that he another quarter of a million pounds, it could expects this report to be back within the costs us another half a million. I say hon. next month, it would in fact to my mind members of this Court, use your nut, and let be prudent to wait until it is back purely us get this contract at the price that we are for this one purpose, and then to reconsider offered it, not have to wait. We have got to the matter so that you can have the Har- have a landing-stage and it is no use putting bour Board consulted by this committee if it off. Get it signed, get it done with. necessary, so that the two bodies can go hand in hand towards the short term and Mr. Kneale: Your Excellency, I would the long term solution without dissension or also ask the members to use their nuts, and without any bitterness and without any remember what happened in December, doubts on the matter by this Court. I strongly when we were told how desperate it was to support the amendment to the amendment take a vote on the Nunnery. Now we know proposed by the hon. and gallant member today that nobody is sure who owns the for middle, Col. Spittall. Nunnery even at this stage. I would say that when the contract has not got to be Mr. Devereau: Your Excellency, every- signed before the 1st April we should body in this Court wants to have their cake support the amendment that has been moved, and eat it. This is a ridiculous argument. I and then all the facts should be before us. am not supporting any amendment, because If this report does not turn up there is a it is necessary, we are told in these docu- different situation. ments, that there is a contract ready to be signed for the building of a landing-stage. Miss Cowin: Your Excellency, in my view Now even the Chairman of the Harbour this whole argument is an academic exercise. Board has admitted that we need a landing- We must have the landing stage and as a stage in Liverpool. We are at least _going to representative for East Douglas, which is a need a landing-stage in Liverpool for the tourist constituency, I am wholly in favour next five, seven or eight years. I know of the motion as it stands. It seems to me there are more modern methods coming for that we are taking partners and doing the carrying cargo. We are not interested at this right thing by the Harbour Board which moment in carrying cargo to the Isle of Man. apparently has not been consulted in the What we have got to ensure is that our bread matter, which is an oversight, but not what and butter comes over in the form of pas- I would consider a substantial oversight. sengers on the Isle of Man boats. As for (Interruption.) They have nothing practical this year we are all right, next year we are to offer. The matter is in the hands of not so safe, the year after that we have not the major partner in the concern, which is got a thing. They cannot build these new the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board. We amenities within that space of time and can do nothing other than accept this motion nobody can kid me that they can. We are in fairness to the visiting industry of the going to have after 1974 a complete dearth Island. of any method or carrying passengers out of Liverpool unless we renew and start re- Members: Rubbish! newing, now, the landing stage. We have a contract at a fixed price so long as it is Mr. Bolton: Your Excellency, I do want signed by 1st April. If it is not signed, to say first of all sir, that the question of goodness knows what it will go to. Your not consulting the Harbour Board in this lackadaisical attitude today might cost us particular matter was not an oversight. The

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matter was in the hands of the sub-com- present negotiations with the Mersey Trans- mittee of Executive Council. The Harbour port Passenger Executive and with the Board's authority runs over the harbours Ministry of the Environment on the basis in the Isle of Man and the discussion of that we are going ahead, because if we do harbours in England and the maintenance not it is bound to affect the cost of the of a landing-stage in Liverpool is a matter other part of this landing-stage. for the Liverpool Mersey Docks and Harbour Board, as it was and now the Mr. Irving: Are we setting the pace? Mersey Docks and Harbour Company. I do want to make it abundantly clear sir, that Mr. Bolton: We are in fact setting the despite the fact that we would always be pace as far as I can judge from the conver- prepared to discuss the matter with anybody, sations we had. There is no shadow of we were under no obligation whatever to doubt and it is no good anybody who has discuss it with the Harbour Board, as such. not been in on these negotiations trying If they had wished to discuss it with us to suggest that they know what has gone on, they could easily have said so. We would because they do not. Only those of us who have been quite ready to discuss the mattter have been present know exactly what the with them, but they come along time after postition is, and it is serious, It is very time and say — nobody told us about this - serious situation. I suggest that unless we they wait until the very last minute in order are going to be put into great difficulties bgth to be able to say this. Now what I do want as to the date of completion which is very, to say sir, is this, that this is a matter of very important to us, apart altogether from the utmost urgency. (Interruptions.) Never the date in the contract, the financial mind, look, I hope that members will have implications are really quite secondary to more sense than to start making comparisons the completion of the contract by October with anything else. This is a matter of the 1974. Otherwise, as the hon. member for life-blood of the isle of Man. This, I trust East Douglas has said, we could find our- everybody regards seriously. Now we have, selves in 1975 with no landing-stage at all. we understand, until 1st April to signify I do trust that this matter will be dealt with our willingness to go ahead. The Mersey seriously in this way. If the Court feels Docks and Harbour Company are anxious convinced that it should defer until 20th to get on with it because they realise that March then we must make a decision on if this is not done it is going to cost us a lot that day without fail, and let the Mersey of money, not them, it will cost us a lot of Docks Company know. My own view is that money, if it is not dealt with at once. It we should not defer it at all. may be all right to wait until the 20th March, I cannot say whether it will or not. Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, could I am absolutely against postponing the I speak on the amendment? matter at all. However, if we are to carry any amendment to say that it shall be 20th The Governor: On the amended amend- March, then I would plead that this must ment. be first business on the agenda, it must be dealt with and the Mersey Docks Company Mr. MacDonald: Yes, sir. This is the informed immediately of the decision so question of bringing it forward within a that they are in plenty of time to deal with month and all I would like to say, Your this matter. They are hoping that we are Excellency, is this. 1 must make it quite going ahead. They are in fact making their clear in view of what the hon. Chairman

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•of Finance Board has said, that the Harbour have always rushed into a thing is entirely Board fully appreciate the requirement of squarely on the three heads of this com- Liverpool. They fully appreciate that a mittee. decision has got to be reached very quickly. However, the Harbour Board do not feel Mr. Ranson : Your Excellency, I rise in that Tynwald should be panicked any support of the amendment. I think it is a longer into doing things which in the long very, very wise move. I also like and would run we will suffer from, Of this we are support the second amendment and would quite convinced. .The hon, member for sincerely hope the mover of the first amend- Douglas West did mention how the entire ment would incorporate the suggestion made thing is in the hands of the Mersey Docks by the mover of second amendment. The and Harbour Company. Well I am very Chairman of the Harbour Board made very, sorry to tell this Court that only a matter very clear the advantages of the roll-on, of, was it eighteen months ago, a Manx roll-off. I do feel that the tremendous Packet boat damaged that very landing-stage advantage of this type of construction which that the Mersey Docks and Harbour Corn- is going to be so important to the Isle of pany and this committee are so worried Man Steam Packet Company and the Isle about. Insurance was paid and claimed to of Man in general in the future, I think the repair this damage and to this day the steel delay is fully warranted due to the fact that supports that were brought there for the out of the report we are promised, in a repair have not been used at all. They have matter of a fortnight, that the possibility of done nothing whatsoever. This is the effic- roll-on and roll-off at the Liverpool landing- ient Company that you are dealing with. stage may well come about, and if that did These steel girders cost a lot of money, there is no need for me or anybody else they are still lying on the stage at Liverpool to say how wise this would be. and this is what worries me sir. I do not think that you people really although you Mr. Simcocks: Your Excellency, if this say you are fully in the picture, I do not debate was the first occasion upon which think you are really. There are other the principle of offering help to the Mersey people in here who also think although at Docks and Harbour Company in repairing times we are led to believe that God is in Princes Landing stage at Liverpool, I could his Heaven and all is right with the world understand the arguments which are being as long as He knows the lot and what He • put, much better. The fact of the matter is, says is fact. There are other people who sir, that opposition to what is merely a see facts also, and the facts we see we do not price adjustment in respect of an accepted like. We have been committed to things in principle seems to me to be based on the the past, like we are being bulldozed today grounds of principle itself. There is nothing into rush action one month, get it done, or new in the fact that there has been a sub- the whole Isle of Man will collapse. It makes committee of the Executive Council working mc laugh when I look at you, and all I on this. The Committee existed when I was can say is this, I hope, Your Excellency, last elected to the Council something like Tynwald will agree to the amendment, if two years ago. We have all known that this they do not all I can say is that be it on the committee has been operating because of the heads of this excellent committee in five confidential summary of proceedings of the years time. Some of them will not be here Executive Council over a period of more then, but be it on their heads. The cost to than two years. There has never been any this Island of rushing into a thing as they • objection to my knowledge by the Harbour

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Board on the grounds that this committee Harbour Board would have been concerned, were invading the province of the Isle of but do not let us be led astray. There are Man Harbour Board. Indeed, there would two very clear things we have to consider. have been no real grounds for the charge The one which the hon. and gallant member had it been made because the sphere of for Peel refers us to, the report to his Board, activities of the Isle of Man Harbour Board that is one matter. Quite separately and is restricted to the harbours of the Isle of distinct and much more urgent, Your Excel- Man. This particular exercise was dealt with lency, is the question of this Court demon- on the basis that it was a harbour outside strating to the Mersey Docks and Harbour the Isle of Man and that it was a matter of Company that the Isle of Man supports it grave concern to the tourist industry of the and that it can get on with the job. I Island. I have no doubt that the report to believe that the line which this debate has which the hon. and gallant Chairman of taken today may well prove damaging to the Harbour Board makes reference will our tourist industy. I would hope that we provide us with very fruitful sources of would be sensible about this, realise that concern and debate when we come to con- we have no alternative, we have accepted sider what are the matters which are dealt the principle on two separate occasions. with in that report. However, with great No one is asking this Court to accept a respect, Your Excellency, this debate today new principle, all we are asking to do is is not concerned with the report of this this, already the cost has escalated by 50 per committee to the Harbour Board. What we cent., if we continue to accept this policy are concerned with today, sir, is taking of whether they adjust in price we can with effective and immediate steps to safeguard luck restrict it to that. If we allow ourselves our tourist industry. It seems to me that to be led down a wrong trail on a false there is no reason in the world why the promise to deal with a report which is not decisions of the report that is being made to really relevant to what we are discussing the Harbour Board should not be acccepted today, we may well find the cost will escalate and implemented, subject always to their still further. I would hope, sir, that we use merit, at the same time as this particular plain common sense, avoid emotion, and work of safeguarding our tourist industry is that we vote firmly and completely for the carried out. Just because there may at some resolution moved by the hon. Chairman of time in the future be an improved method the Executive Council. of cargo handling is no reason why we should turn our back on the tourist industry Mr. Bell : It has appeared during these and throw away what many of us regard very important debates on this proposed as the most important side of our entire colossal expenditure of public money that economy. That is what the Harbour Board the people who are querying either the are telling us, backed I am sorry to say, by timing of it or the effectiveness of the sub- my strong suspicion that the Harbour Board committee dealing with it, are anti-tourist in some way feel themselves to have been people. It cannot be true because the snubbed. I can only refer to the impressions. majority of the Tourist Board here present The impression I have is that the Harbour today are querying it — the hon. member Board feels that it has been snubbed because for Ayre and myself, Your Excellency. If it was not brought in at the early stages to this was a matter of such urgent concern to consider a matter that was not strictly within tourism and the Tourist Board had a its province. Had we been talking about meeting yesterday, I would have thought emergency facilities in Douglas naturally the that the support of the Tourist Board by a

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member of Executive Council would have state "the figure is based upon a fixed price been at least, if not solicited at least tender". Now one of the two gentlemen I determined by laying facts before us which have referred to, Your Excellency, I cannot possibly members cannot give to us here in pinpoint which one exactly without playing open Tynwald Court — if there are any other the tape back, but one of the members did facts. I must join forces, if not reluctantly say that this is not a fixed price as we know to support the hon. member for Ayre, Mr. fixed prices, but, and there was some inter- Clucas from the attack that he suffered, ruptions so it was not very clear, and I Your Excellency. I believe the hon. member was not interrupting because I do not believe for Ayre was perfectly right when he high- in it, I was only seeking information. I lighted here and brought attention to bear think it is important and I am sure the rest on the method that the first money was of the members of Tynwald Court who are agreed in principle and it was word for word supporting this amendment will be thinking for the very same utterances that we have very, very clearly on what the words in this been getting here today, if you want tourism report mean, have we got a fixed price for here next year you must do this now. The a plan and specifications which is recom- hon. member for Ayre clearly pointed out mended for the work, or have we got a that the spirit of Tynwald had been indi- fixed price per linear yard or cubic foot or cated, the money required as estimated was whatever it is with no idea as to the available, the hon. Chairman of the Harbour amount of those quantities which will be Board has referred to an accident which required to do the work. We have got in this occurred, to the Insurances which were paid, report, God alone knows whose report it is, and to no repairs being done. One must I do not, it says "I" somewhere, it says the pause and say whether the other parties to Mersey Docks and Harbour Board whom I this are intent on keeping the spirit of the shall refer to hereafter, 1 do not know who bargain which we have done with them. That "I" is, and it is not signed, it does not even is one thing. However, that should not be a say where it originates from but I am sure good reason for delaying or even amending that members of the Court who support the resolution. I know that the England the resolution are not even interested whose roll-on/roll-off, and I take it that it has got report it is, they are so full with what was nothing at all to do with corsetry (laughter) said in 1970, that the Princes Landing Stage it has got absolutely nothing to do with the was going to collapse within 24 hours that question related to the Palace Hotel this they have not even bothered to read this. morning. I feel quite sure that if this is It is important to me. I want to secure the necessary and that if it is gaining strength Princes Landing Stage for the Isle of Man in other ports around the coast in the U.K. Steam Packet vessels as much as any member that eventually we in the Island will be of the Tourist Board, past, present or future persuaded to have it. However, the time of may be looking for. I want to do it on the the Court is surely not being taken today right basis that we are not entering into in persuading us to have it. I am persuaded an open ended contract. Members well know in supporting the amendment because I wish what fixed prices arc but do they know what to query, and I wish the Select Committee fixed contracts are? I doubt it very much. to query, the printed words- in this report Certain members should know, Your Excel- and the statement by the Chairman of lency. I am convinced the committee will he the Finance Board or the statement of elected and I would like to address myself the Chairman of Executive Council, the and say that when the committee is so words I refer to are on page 5 and they elected they will pay particular regard to

Liverpool Landing Stage — Debate Continued. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973 T441

the wording in this report about a fixed as the first item at the next sitting of price, because the £1 million and over Tynwald. I think that would give us time referred to and the £1+ million referred to to deal with any genuine anxieties that were by the hon. member for Ayre, Mr. Clucas, in the minds of hon. members. I would not is in fact something which could become a like to hinder it to such a degree that it was monstrous reality. I think that we should going to add to the cost in the future. know perfectly well what type of contract we are entering into. I support the amend- Sir Henry Sugden: Your Excellency, the ment and I hope that when the committee Isle of Man Steam Packet have just bought are elected that the Court will put hon. a new ferry steamer. They are going to need members not only on the Executive sub- these ferry facilities, for a number of years, committee, but some fresh members of at least I would say ten years, possibly Tynwald Court. fifteen and probably twenty five. I believe it is wise for us now to accept the resolution Mr. Corkhill: Your Excellency, 1 have before us, because the Steam Packet will looked very carefully at both the resolution need those facilities for their passengers as and the amended amendment, and while I well as their cars and they have now got have always tried to support some sort of two small cargo boats which are going to certainty and the resolution guarantees us go in and out of the docks at the other side something providing we follow up right of the river and that will deal with their away, I think it is necessary to follow up. cargo facilities. So 1 am supporting the The amendment does not promise us any- present resolution before us because I believe thing. That is where I find the difference that that the Steam Packe will need it for at least this resolution says that although there has fifteen years if not longer. been an increase of almost 25 per cent. we do not want you to delay as in the amend- Mr. Crellin: Your Excellency. ment to find another 25 per cent, on. So personally feel that we would be doing the The Governor: You have spoken. right thing in supporting the resolution for the simple reason that it promises some- Mr. Crellin: Your Excellency, may I have thing definite while the amendment promises your ruling on this, sir, because I have nothing. spoken on the amendment to the amendment.

Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, could we The Governor: Now what is the question? get some indication from the committee as to whether or not it is a practical proposition Mr. CreIlin: This is the question. There is to go forward with the amendment to the as far as I am concerned a certain misap- amendment and that within the month prehension here in this hon. Court. specified anything could come to the surface. As I understand it this would not entail a The Governor: Well, now, I think I know new committee going into it, because for a what your misapprehension is. new committee to start in now would to me seem to be utterly ridiculous. The present Mr. Crellin: Could you please clarify it? committee has spent a very considerable time on it. I would support Col. Spittall's The Governor: If, I might read out the amendment to the amendment if the com- second, which I might call the Ellan Vannin mittee was satisfied that it were dealt with amendment (loud laughter) that the motion

Liverpool Landing Stage — Debate Continued. T442 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

be adjourned in the terms of Standing Order longer than I believe the committee of 17 to a sifting of Tynwald on 20th March, Executive Council have been deliberating on 1973. That is the second amendment, and it their particular remit. says nothing about a committee. Mr. Clucas: Not quite! Mr. Kerruish: Your Excellency, the hon. member for Peel indicated that on this Mr. Kerruish: Well, almost as long, and occasion the Court was being stampeded I have no doubt as to which was the most into coming to a decision on a very important task. I have no doubt about it important matter. Now I think it was quite that when we get the report of the National right and proper for the hon. member for Ports Council, they will have some very Rushen, Mr. Simcocks, in what I thought interesting things to say, chiefly about the was an excellent speech to draw the Court's ports of the Isle of Man. They will say no attention to the fact that this is not the first doubt as to whether or whether not Port St. but indeed the third occasion on which this Mary should continue as a fishing port, or matter has been before the members of this whether is should be changed into a yachting hon. Court. Now what has happened on marina to develop our tourist industry. It is the two previous occasions when the hon. matters like this and as to whether we are Chairman of Executive Council has tabled right or gong to reject Mr. Salt's scheme motions covering sums approaching this for Ramsey Harbour. These are the kinds figure relating to this very self same exercise? of things that the National Ports Council On both occasions in October 1971 and July are going to report on. However, is there 1972, both resolutions on these occasions any doubt in any hon. member's minds as went through without any debate whatsoever. to what the National Ports Council's views For what reason, because each and every will be as to which is the principal disem- member of this hon. Court knows that it is barkation port in the Isle of Man for vitally important that the life chain between tourists? There will be no doubt whatsoever, Liverpool and the Isle of Man should be it will be the port of Douglas. Similarly, maintained. I regard this, sir, as one of the whether they comment on it or not and I most important resolutions which has ever should imagine commenting on ports outside been tabled in this hon. Court, because it is the shores of the Isle of Man will extend vitally concerned with the maintenance of beyond their remit. However, if they were our all important tourist industry. Make no asked to comment on it, no one could have mistake about it, that is really what it any doubt as to what their views will be as amounts to. I think it is most unfortunate to the most important port in the British that the message should go forth from this Isles as far as the Isle of Man is concerned Court today on the eve of one more visiting for the embarkation and disembarkation of season, that the Isle of Man intends Douglas tourist passengers, and that is Liverpool. — Liverpool to remain one of the most This is not a new subject, Your Excellency, important tourist routes in the world. Now, this has been gone into by successive Tourist sir, what is the position? The hon. Chairman Boards over the years. They have been of the Harbour Board has put forward the extremely busy, Mr. Quayle and his pre- suggestion that the matter should be deferred desessors exploring possibilities as to whether for a month, now for what reason? Ap- there are alternatives to Liverpool, but it is parently, it is to await the report of the spelled out here very clearly the A.B.C. of National Ports Council, a body which the job, the main point however is that there has been deliberating on its remit even are no real services whatsoever into Fleet-

Liverpool Landing Stage — Debate Continued. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973 T443

wood, they terminated at Poulton-le-Flyde with this enhanced bill, we are also informed and that is why Liverpool is the key, that is that within three weeks we will have a where all the trains, all the bus routes from report on the operation of Island ports in all over England, Wales and Scotland con- particular and Irish sea ports in general. I verge. There is no doubt about it. Liverpool have been disturbed today by the very fact -Douglas is going to remain our vital link. that in dealing with this issue there seems to It is altogether important that we should be a rift between the Executive Committee make it abundantly clear that we, the Gov- and the Harbour Board. There can be no ernment of this Island intend to ensure the isolation of the control that is handling the continuation of that vital link. Now for my business of U.K. ports and the control that is part, if the Harbour Board agree that part handling Isle of Man ports, because if you then I think they should appreciate that this are making provisions for port facilities in matter which I had hoped by now would Liverpool, the provision one would imagine have been actually in the course of imple- that has to be made in the Isle of Man must mentation, and rather than debate it again be of an identical character. In that sense I in a month's time, I was hoping that in a think the two bodies have to come together month's time that the sub-committee will be in considering the whole position even before able to advise Tynwald, and I think that they report to us in a month's time. I Tynwald should be kept advised on this think the point made by the hon. member important matter, that events are entrained for Ramsey, Sir Henry Sugden, is of great to see that work is commenced, and for my importance in this connection. He mentioned part sir, I will have no hesitation in casting that the Steam Packet Company have now my vote firmly against any of the amend- built three new boats. We have to be very, ments and voting very clearly for the very careful here that the pattern of building resolution. I feel quite frankly sir, that to do is going to be an up to date pattern in the otherwise would be very much against the future and does not necessarily continue short and the long term interests of the on the pattern that is in operation at the tourist traffic of this Island. moment. If one reads the Mona's Herald today you will find that the King Orry is in its twenty seventh year and £¢ million The Speaker: Your Excellency, I rise to a year is being spent on maintaining an support the amendment tabled by the hon. out-dated fleet, which would leave me to member for Middle, designated the "Ellan believe that any prudent company will be Vannin" amendment and I feel sure that this laying down more tonnage before so very one will continue to sail and will not be sunk long. One wants to be sure that the type of by this Court. We have been told that this is tonnage that is laid down is to be an up to not the first, second or third occasion that date type of vessel capable of meeting the we have discussed this issue. If hon. mem- island's needs. We were lost completely bers, when we voted the earlier sum, action when it came to the provision of car ferries had been taken and it was possible for action years ago. We lost that race by years. We to be taken at that stage, there would have lost the container race as far as the Steam been no occasion for a debate today. Today Packet were concerned. Let us not lose out on the third occasion the hon. member for now on this business of handling both traffic Council has said, we are faced with a bill that is cargo and traffic that is passenger in which has increased in size by £350,000, the years ahead and it is for this reason I am rather a substantial difference one would beg supporting the amendment which I think is to suggest. At the same time as we are faced completely realistic.

Liverpool Landing Stage — Debate Continued. T444 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

The Governor: Will you reply to this pier. They then brought in engineering advice debate? to advise absolutely against this.

Mr. P. Radcliffe: Yes, Your Excellency. I Mr. MacDonald: I should think so too. have listened to what the hon. Mr. Speaker has said and to this debate today with great Mr. Radcliffe: Then they had to go out to interest. It often enlightens one when you tender. No-N, I think anybody who knows have sat for many hours on a committee anything about going out to tender on a that the people- who have never been at a project overall that is going to cost some- Committee meeting know far more about where in the region of the £1+ million what is going on than those who have been suggested by the Harbour Board's 800 ft. present. There has been a suggestion from the plus approxii.lately half again for the other hon. member for South Douglas for instance part in reference to the ferries, just cannot that we set up a new Committee, a Corn- make a tender like that stick within a few .mittee who would know all the answers. As months. It was found that the figures of Chairman of the Airports Board, quite estimated cost were well outside of what the recently, he bought a £30,000 fire• engine figure that was tendered was to be and this that would not go into the station. (Laughter) is where the delay occured. It had nothing He is the man who is going to tell us. whatever to do with the Committee, the Committee were as anxious as anybody to get this job progressing. I think that some Mr. 'Bell: At the time the fire tender was of the statements that have been made here purchased I was not a member of the today can, as one hon. member said, be very Airports Board and this is typical of Ex- detrimental to the situation in reference to ecutive Council. the usage of this landing stage in Liverpool. A statement was made that although we were Mr. P. Radcliffe: He is the gentlman who told in 1970 that this pier was in a bad knows the answers and is going to suggest state of repair, nothing had been done about therefore, Your Excellency, we should have it since then. This is absolutely contrary to a new Committee to lead this Committee fact because the engineers of Mersey Docks into doing the correct thing. One point that and Harbour Board, and I am one of these has been commented on on more than one people who are quite prepared to accept a occasion this morning and this afternoon person's opinion, an expressed opinion as a and Mr. Speaker. referred to it quite recently, technical adviser, and accept his word as why did not this progress when this hon. being correct until I can prove he is wrong, Court agreed to the figure of £880,000. Who and they said that they had been main- is doing this job, is the Mersey Docks and taining this pier and would continue to Harbour Board — maintain it to guarantee the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company access to the pier Mr. MacDonald : A company, a private with their boats until 1974 as long as they company. were able to immediately now start, if they got a firm tender, and progressed the work. Mr. P. Radcliffe: Well the company in the So, I am not going to, Your Excellency, go very beginning said that they were going to through all the points that were made re-build the structure —I mentioned this because it would take us all the afternoon. earlier this morning in my report, out, prin- Basically, and speaking as Chairman of the cipally, of material salvaged from the old Committee it is entirely up to the members

Liverpool Landing Stage — Debate Continued. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973 T445

of the Committee what they decide, I am Mr. P. Radcliffe: This report was sent to opposed to any amendment; I feel an excel- the hon. members and the hon. member for lent speech was made by the hon. member Peel raised the question when it was on our for Rushen, Mr. Simeocks. I fail to see why Summary of Executive Council Proceedings. this hon. Court today agree the principle that authority be given to borrow this extra The Speaker: The report came afterwards. money, that we still cannot pursue the matter It has not been discussed. put forward by the Harbour Board, we are still negotiating and in contact with the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board, we can Mr. P. Radcliffe: It may not have been. take this point up. I appreciate the fact that 1 think the point is that he was emphasising what has been said by the Chairman of the today that he was not aware of what was Harbour Board and his colleagues on the going on. He was very well aware of what Harbour Board, they have got a very was going on. logical argument. We are all here to do what we think is the best for the Isle of Man. Mr. MacDonald: No, he was not. Basically, the argument put forward by the Chairman of the Harbour Board and his Mr. P. Radcliffe: Oh, yes, you were, and, roll-on/roll-off and his survey, it could take apart from that altogether, I hope we are years. We know what happens to these not going to make an issue of this point. surveys when they come before the hon. We appreciate the fact, we have got Boards Court, they are discussed, then we have got elected to do a certain job and we are only to find out where the finance is going to too willing to work with them come from to implement them. It could be another five years before this is done. Mr. MacDonald: I hope so. I think the hon. members of this Court today will be well advised to support this Mr. P. Radcliffe: I . do emphasise the resolution and I can assure them that the urgency on this matter and we should Committee will raise the point with the support the resolution. One question that Mersey Docks and Harbour Board that has was raised was in reference to the fixed been raised and that that was also raised price. The fixed rates are for measured work by the Chairman of the Harbour Board, that submitted to the Mersey Docks and Harbour they had not been contacted. When this Company in accordance with the plans and report in the yellow form, on my request, specifications provided for this job. The was submitted to the hon. members of the volume of the work has been estimated but House of Keys in private and discussed, the actual volumn may vary in the estimate immediately the Chairman of the Harbour but they do not think, at this stage, it should, Board raised the point, I took it up with but, naturally they do realise that as a lot the Government Secretary and immediately of this work is going to be under water it is contacted the Steam Packet Company and extremely difficult to estimate to within this is why we have got their report and possibly one or two hundred pounds of what their re-actions. the final figure would be.

Mr. Bell: The rates that are fixed. Not the The Speaker: Your Excellency, on a point contract figure. of order this report has never been discussed in the House of Keys. Mr. P. Radcliffe: It is a contract figure.

Liveipool Landing Stage —Debate Continued. T446 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

Mr. Bell: No it is not. as to which Harbour Board they mean.

Mr. P. Radcliffe: Oh, yes it is. You may Mr. MacDonald: It clearly says the Isle contract your painting under a different of Man Harbour Board. system but I am talking about contracting the building of a pier. Mr. Bell: On page 8 it does.

Mr. Bell: Well, if you will read your brief Mr. MacDonald: Page 9. again you will see the rates are fixed not the contract. Mr. Bell: The Mersey Docks and Harbour Board. Mr. P. Radcliffe: I did not say it was not the rates, it was the rate based on the volume Mr. MacDonald: It is a fact that in my of work involved in the re-building of the own writing that I submitted but not to this pier. Committee.

Mr. Bell: I see. Full stop. Mr. Bolton: Your Excellency, this is a statement by the Steam Packet Company, I Mr. P. Radcliffe: Full stop, exactly. How- think. ever, I do, Your Excellency, again reiterate that I think if this hon. Court today defer Mr. MacDonald: No, sir. "The views of this matter back for a month that the Mersey the Isle of Man Harbour Board have also Docks and Harbour Board have got to know been sought". The views of the Isle of Man by the middle of March what they are going Harbour Board were not sought. to do about getting this contract drawn up and signed. I hope the hon. members will Mr. Bolton: By the Steam Packet Com- support the resolution as printed, pany.

Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, may I Mr. MacDonald: They were not sought by just ask one thing and that is in this report you or the Steam Packet Company. the Chairman did not answer, 1 asked that a certain section of this yellow report be com- The Governor: Well, it is now on record pletely taken out because it is not true. That several times. I shall now put the question. is the last paragraph on page 8, and the first and second paragraphs on page 9. Mr. MacDonald: On record. I will not accept it. Mr. Bell: It does not mean your Board. The Governor: The first question is the Mr. MacDonald: Yes, it does mention the amendment of the hon. and gallant member Isle of Man Harbour Board are included in for Middle that the motion be adjourned in here and this, in fact, was not brought before the terms of Standing Order 17 to a sitting the Committee. None of that was brought of Tynwald on the 20th March 1973. Those before this Liaison Committee. It is the last in favour please say aye. Those against paragraph on page 8, Your Excellency, and say no. paragraphs 1 and 2 of page 9. A division was called for and voting resulted as follows — The Governor: There is some confusion

Liverpool Landing Stage — Debate Continued. T447 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

In the Keys — The Speaker: Your Excellency, that amendment has been lost in the Keys. Six For: Messrs. MacLeod, Clucas, Miss votes being cast in favour and fifteen votes Thorton - Duesbery, Messrs. Ranson, against. Spittall, Mrs. Quayle, Messrs. Moore, Bell, Kneale, MacDonald, Hislop and In the Council — the Speaker — 12. For: Nil. Against: Messrs. Anderson, Kermeen, Radcliffe, Simcocks, Crellin, Irving, Miss Against: The Lord Bishop, Deemster Cowin, Mr. Devereau and Sir Henry Moore, Messrs. Bolton, Radcliffe, Sugden —9. Corkhill, Crowe, Kerruish and Quayle —8. The Speaker: Your Excellency, the amend- ment carries in the House of Keys. Tweive The Governor: Unanimously against in votes being cast in favour and nine votes the Council so that amendment also fails. against, sir. Now the resolution as it appears on the Order paper. Those in favour please say aye In the Council — and those against please say no.

For : Nil. A division was called for and voting Against: The Lord Bishop, Deemster resulted as follows — Moore, Messrs. Bolton, Radcliffe, Corkhill, Crowe, Kerruish and Quayle In the Keys — —8. For: Messrs. Anderson, Kermeen. Clucas. The Governor: Unanimously against in Radcliffe, Miss Thornton - Duesbery, the Council. The amendment therefore fails. Messrs. Ranson, Spittall, Simcocks, Those in favour of the amendment proposed Crellin, Mrs. Quayle, Messrs. Moore, by the hon. member for Peel please say aye, Bell, Irving, Miss Cowin, Messrs. and those against please say no. Kneale, Devereau, MacDonald, Hislop, Sir Henry Sugden and the Speaker —20. A division was called for and voting resulted as follows — Against : Mr. MacLeod — I.

In the Keys The Speaker: Your Excellency, the res- olution carries. Twenty votes being cast in For: Messrs. MacLeod, Clucas, Ranson, favour and one vote against. Bell, MacDonald and the Speaker — 6. In the Council Against : Messrs. Anderson, Kermeen, Radcliffe, Miss Thornton - Duesbery, For: The Lord Bishop, Deemster Moore, Messrs. Spittall, Simcocks, Crellin, Messrs. Bolton, Radcliffe, Corkhill, Mrs. Quayle, Messrs. Moore, Irving, Crowe, Kerruish, Quayle — 8. Miss Cowin, Messrs. Kneale, Devereau, Hisiop and Sir Henry Sugden — 15. Against: Nil.

Liverpool Landing Stage — Debate Continued. T448 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

The Governor: Unanimously in favour in Childrens Committee of the Board of Edu- the Council it therefore passes. cation. One of the problems is the numbers involved are so small that it is difficult to justify the accommodation that one has to provide for two couples to be in charge of PROPOSAL TO PROVIDE REMAND this accommodation. Therefore, one had to HOME — APPROVED. cater for rather more than would normally be in custody at a remand home. We have, The Governor: Item 7. The hon. member thus, come forward with a resolution having for Glenfaba, Mr. Anderson. consulted very many people about the need and the possibilities and development in Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I beg other places. We have had a great deal of help to move - from the Home Office, from various Homes already in existence in the United Kingdom That Tynwald- ( 1) approves of the proposal to provide a and a lot of people who have had experience purpose-built Remand Home in the Isle of Man in this sphere. I know that one of the at an estimated cost of .C36,000: reasons and expressed here on a previous (2) requests His Excellency, in consultation occasion by My Lord Bishop of his asking with the Finance Board, to give consideration to this proposal in framing the Budget; and for some elaboration on what is to take (3) requests His Excellency to take steps place is the fear that those on remand are necessary to seek an Order under Section 2 of going to come into contact with children who the Town and Country Planning Amendment have been put into the care of the Board of Act 1936 in respect of this proposal. Education because of inadequate home facil- One thing about this resolution is that it is ities. I am much concerned for the well-being not being rushed -into too quickly. I will of those children My Lord as what you are however cut out some of the suff leading but, having seen what is being done else- up to it because I do not think we want where I am satisfied that what is proposed a lesson in history on some twenty-four in this complex can adequately deal with years that this has been in existence. We the position and if you have the opportunity have all been made aware of how inadequate to look at this plan you will see that it does the present facilities are and the present provide at least three departments of accom- Committee that has dealt with this came modation which can be kept in isolation into being Is a result of approaches to from the others if necessary. yourself, Your Excellency, from the Magi- strates' Association some two years ago. I Mr. Bell: What do you mean by isolation? would apologise for it being two years since this started out first of all. However, I would Mr. Anderson: That they need not neces- remind the hon. members that in that period sarily mix with the children who are in care. we had an election in which the Committee I think this is the chief concern of My Lord was changed, all bar myself. In the mean- as far as this is concerned. I would say time we have had quite a job to do so without any shadow of doubt the people to far as research into the possibilities were whom I spoke in Jersey who had quite a concerned. We come forward today feeling lot of experience in this sphere and also at that we have a scheme which I think will Bushey in Hertfordshire and I know other meet the requirements of the Island insofar members of the Children's Committee of the as remand is concerned and also cater for Board of Education who visited homes in the needs of the children in regard to the various parts of England were absolutely

Proposal to Provide Remand Home — Approved. T449 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

convinced that in spite of what looked to Government. First of all we had looked at be a wrong thing to do it just did not work a site owned by Government at the Iurby out that way. In fact, each in turn said that because there was already a stand there on there were more complex problems with the which it was felt this building could be put • children who had come into care than those more cheaply possibly than anywhere else. who were actually on remand because they However, we realised that in relation to had come from disturbed homes and dis- Courts, Schools and all the facilities etc., it turbed backgrounds whereas the others were would be much better in Douglas. It did very often children who had kicked over dawn on me when I met some of the people the traces, been caught in doing something who we had in Ballamona for treatment that probably we all had done at some time and who were going out day by day to work, or other and that they had been put in in that somewhere in this complex would be this way for punishment. the ideal position to build a remand home because this land was already owned by Mr. Bell: We are not dealing with punish- Government. We have come forward with ment here? this plan which is providing this accom- modation and, in this, proposed £35,200 we Mr. Anderson : No, well I am sorry to have a building cost of some £29,000, site sort of use that but it is a detention centre. works of £5,000 and the remainder is furnishings for this Home. As I say, we never Mr. Bell: Not punishment. For the record thought that it was going to add up to this let us get it right. amount. If we were to provide for five or six then the cost would have been very Mr. Anderson: Not as punishment as little different from what is on this plan. such, a method of correction. From the plan As it is we are coming forward with this hon. members will see this has been designed much bigger and more adequate provision in such a way that it gives a natural insofar as the total requirement of child enclosure where the young people can care on the Island is concerned and, I think, exercise and be exercised and have a play everything considered, that this will ade- area without having to build a high wall quately fill the bill for ourselves and the or put rails around it.' I think from that Childrens Committee of the Board of point of view the design is excellent. It is Education. I had an awful lot of stuff here an "A" framed building, and possibly will but I can tell by the attitude of a lot of not be quite as attractive as we might have people they did not want to hear too many wished but we had to try to cut the suit statistics and details. I have spared you that according to the cloth as far as possible. and Your Excellency I would beg to move, We had hoped, possibly pie in the sky, at and, in answering I will try to answer any one stage to do this for some £12,000, I questions raised by hon. members in this believe that within this complex the require- proposition. I am sure that every member ments of the Island as far as child care is of this Court is anxious that this facility, at concerned can be dealt with adequately for last, should be provided. It has been long, the foreseeable future. The location of the long overdue and I know there have been site, is case anybody does not know, is to hon. members and previous members of the be at Tromode on land owned by the Health Childrens Committee of the Board of Edu- Services Board. They have agreed, as have cation who have been as anxious as I have the Management Committee of the Balla- been, probably more so, that this becomes mona Hospital, to allocate this land to effective very soon.

Proposal to Provide Remand Home—Approved. T450 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

Mr. Simcocks: Your Excellency, I beg to vote for this thing although I very much second and reserve my remarks. want a remand home unless I know quite clearly exactly and precisely what sort of The Lord Bishop: Your Excellency, my children come under the head of the name has been mentioned and I think I Childrens Committee of the Board of Edu- ought perhaps to put my point of view cation. Whether all of such children are to before the Court straight away. First of all be put into the remand home, with the I yield to nobody in being concerned that delinquent ones or whether some are, and, there should be a proper remand home in if so, what is the line or distinction which the Island. Ever since 1. came I have been is to be drawn between those who go growing more dissatisfied with the provisions into the remand home with the delinquent which we have made, not with the personnel children and those who go elsewhere. I also that look after the delinquent young people want to know, Your Excellency, what about but with the premises in which they have the provision of the National Childrens Hoine been compelled to do their work and the at Ramsey and of our other Children's young people to live. So anything that 1 Home in Douglas. How do they fit into the am going to say now is not at all- against picture? When does a child go to one of remand homes. I think the provision of a those two volutary homes which provides purpose built remand home is long, long real homes with no stigma attached to them overdue and whatever happens to this res- in any kind of way and when does a child olution today a remand home should be not go to one of those and goes to the proceeded with. I have expressed, Your Annexe or part of the remand home. Now Excellency my concern at the mixing of why I say this is, of those who go to the different kinds of children in one home. It remand home are children, as I say, have was said by the hon. mover of the resolution, done something wrong or are thought to that they can be kept in isolation if it is have done something wrong. Let us assume necessary, those were his words. They can that the majority are those who have done be kept in isolation if necessary. I submit something wrong, for the sake of argument that he was uncomfortable in saying those at the moment. Then these are children who words and knew perfectly well that they have already stepped outside the laws of would generally not be kept in isolation but society and have put themselves on the would be in one home mixing with one wrong side of the law,. the wrong side of another. Therefore, what we are thinking moral conduct in some way or another. Very about is a home in which various kinds of often, they have gone quite a long way in children, who, either through their own fault, that direction before they arrive at the point or through other people's fault, stand in of being in the remand home. What of the need of particular care and attention. We other children that are going to be mixed have not been told by the hon. mover of the up with them?I cannot think that they will motion what children will be there. We have not be mixed up with them and in constant been told that they come under two heads touch with one another, at mealtimes, in — those on remand or that sort of situation,. game times and leisure times and bedtime detention for a while because of something — perhaps not bedtime, but practically every they have done wrong or, are thought to other time. Who are these other children? have done wrong and, on the other hand, These are children who have not kicked a general description of those villa are under over the traces at any point at all beyond the care of the Children's Committee of the the ordinary naughtiness of any child or Board of Education. I am not prepared to grown-up might fall into. These are children

Proposal to Provide Remand Home — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973 T45I

who, through no fault of their own, have appear to realise that the children who are come in need of a home. This is as I going to be there are going to be there for understand it, I stand subject to correction varying terms of staying sometimes in the about this. To my mind, these children are capacity of the Board of Education as the unfortunate children through social circum- guardian of children, whether children will stances or through their mental stability or be there as a place of safety. Little does he psychological make-up or what have you. realise that they will be there on remand However, they are not children who have when no charges have been proven against done something wrong and therefore got them and that the child is innocent until themselves into this home. These are children the child is proved guilty. The fact that he then who, in a sense, are innocent children may be accused of having done something and they are to be put side by side with wrong does not mean to say that he is those who have done something wrong. I guilty of having done something wrong. cannot think that it is right for society for There will also be children who will be the sake of economy, and that is what all there who have been convicted perhaps of this is about, it is because the Isle of Man some small crime. How many children in our fundamentally, at the moment, is too mean world today commit small crimes without to provide a remand home as such, for conviction. Let us be charitable about this those who need a remand home. It wants thing. I hope, first of all, that this fear which to do something on the cheap and it wants the Lord Bishop has had will go now. Is to do it at the expense of human life and the this, however, the sort of fear which has human life at which it is at the expense of stood in our way so long? I do not believe is these children who have, as I say, done that this fear has ever stood in our way. no wrong at all. Now that is as I see it. I The fear which 1 have always suffered from may be quite wrong, Your Excellency, I am is the fact that we have no suitable place ready to be convinced, I very much want a for children who are either sent to a place remand home but let us be quite clear what of safety, sent on remand or even detained we do to generations of children to come, We have had no suitable place for them to before we agree with this thing this after- be. What we have had has been the most noon. unsuitable premises that it has been possible to have and two of the finest people that Mr. Crellin: Your Excellency, I spring to the Isle of Man have ever had working for my feet because I am a little disturbed at them. Those have been the people who what I have just heard from the Lord recently retired from their work in that place Bishop. I would like to refute absolutely so above the police station. Without them that far as my work on the Children's Committee place could have been a hell for children. of the Board of Education is concerned, that Those people unfortunately have retired and this project has anything at all to do with we have to provide new premises, purely economy. 1 do not believe in the principle I think because the powers were stampeded of the ghetto, I never shall, I believe that into it because of the retirement of the children are children and those who have people who were running it. It is ludicrous .ommitted one fault and been caught doing in its way, nevertheless, these premises I am it, do not necessarily need to be separated convinced will provide what is required and from those who have committed many and this resolution is to provide the money to not been caught. The Lord Bishop presumes provide these premises. I sincerely hope that that these children are going to be incar- one of the things that we must not do today cerated apparently for ever. Little does he is to start trying to tell somebody how to

Proposal to Provide Remand Home — Approved. T452 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

run this home before it is built. Let us hope Alcatraz where punishment is to be given that we will get good people to run it, to these children to straighten them up or competent people to run it, people who will are we talking about the modern concept run it in the spirit of the wishes and ambition of care and attention? Remembering always, of many people who have been devoted to that there, but for the Grace of God, go I. the lives and services of children over the We are talking about children. We are past years who will run it efficiently, with accepting reports and recommendations from competance, and .with sympathy for the people, particularly and specifically charged children. I hope to goodness that nothing with the care of children. We are not will stand in our way this day. receiving reports from some very keen and acute monster-minded capitalist business Mr. Bell: Your Excellency, I join with the section where profit or whatever, the other Lord Bishop here 100 per cent. The Lord motive or criterion might be, in this case we Bishop is absolutely right to express concern are accepting a report and recommendation as to the nature that this building will be from the Chairman of a Special Committee put to. I am prepared to vote and was and Tynwald would do well now to pause on prepared to vote on the resolution which is this. My Lord Bishop who was a member to give £36,000, However, I think members of the Board of Education, in my time, has of the Court, now the question is raised and always expressed the very keenest and closest now the member in charge of the resolution desire to do what he can for children also had the opportunity to a full explana- particularly, those who are either unfortunate tion of what actually is going to happen. or just out and out little villains. The point Now we all know what happened in the he makes here is that the unfortunate past. If a child was apprehended either for children are going to be in the same category absconding or for something else or was as far as local .reputations are concerned being charged and was being detained, then as the out and out villains, where other they were held in two rooms upstairs in the remand homes and correction homes or police station. Many members of this hon. Borstal institutions have failed and they are Court, members of the House of Keys, returned to the Island. That those very same members of the public, members of villains will be the occupiers either on the Associations, Welfare, Committees, every- first floor or the ground floor of this body, have from time to time queried some building were unfortunate children—may concern about this and the message finally be children whose parents have died and got through. So we pass a little bit of they arc there — and they have committed legislation for correction and we now seem some small crime, possibly done a gas meter to be going to have a nice building in lieu or took a couple of bottles of milk. (Inter- of the police station. It is very unfortunate ruption.) This is all we are asking, Mr. indeed that the person who is the Chairman Irving, hon. member for East Douglas. of the Ballamona Hospital where I under- What is the building to be used for? My stand they are destroying small rooms like Lord Bishop has referred to the Ramsey this because of the modern concept now for Children's Home, the National Children's mental treatment and they are destroying Home. (Interruption.) Those are the buildings these cells with the small eye holes in the which have possibly got more need of use doors, should be putting to Tynwald, a because the potential of children is there plan reinstating, something which are nothing rather than the potential for the villainous other than small cells. What are we talking child. 1 hope that we are not going to find about here? Are we talking about an that having a building of such accommo-

Proposal to Provide Remand Home — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973 T453

dation that before we know where we are it the district as well, as well as any other is going to be full and we are going to be plan which is put in. So I will submit the wanting another one. Surely, what we are amendment in writing Your Excellency, or looking for is the early identification of will you put them separately? children who are to be a little irresponsible or who may ultimately be a source of The Governor: I will put them separately. concern to the community. We want early identification or we want to be able to get Mr. Bell: That will do then. to them and this is where the Children's Committee are concerned and have been all The Governor: If that will satisfy you. the time of course and this is why I listened earnestly to My Lord Bishop when he Mr. Bell: That will satisfy me and I am expresses his concern as to the suitability sure it will satisfy My Lord Bishop and I and practicability or even the reason for am sure that members of the Court will this. This does seem to be a very quick support us on this. reaction to the public pressures which were mounting. While I will vote for the money, Mr. Hislop: Your Excellency, may I speak I certainly will not vote with it linked to as one who has been associated with this. I do feel, Your Excellency, that those children all my life. From the early days of of us in Tynwald or even in the community our residence in the Isle of Man I associated who are very please that we have got a dec- with boys and girls who had very little laratory motion down for the money, that we material things in this life, in both school and should be given the opportunity as members beyond its spheres, with the inception of a of this Court or as even members of the Juvenile Panel of Magistrates in the Isle of community to oppose the planning stages re Man in 1947, I have been able to sort of the use of this building if we disagree with extend my own sphere of influence amongst it. Item three of the resolution requests His those young people. I have been concerned Excellency to take steps necessary to seek with children who have been sent to the an Order under Section 2 of the Town and remand home for varying types of periods Country Planning Amendment Act 1936 in and for various kinds of offences. However, respect of this proposal. Whatever that may let me say that among those who were sent mean, Your Excellency, I have been given to the remand home are young people who to understand it means that the necessary subsequently went to King William's College planning procedures will not have to be and most certainly among them, young followed and that this building may very people who, today, occupy positions of trust well be given on its location, planning and importance within this Island. They approval. You know how I feel about it, were never the worse for their experience. not just today, I am sure all the members It may have been because their own homes know how I have felt about this for years, were too kind to them but a little while away and My Lord Bishop's views also have been from them taught them an appreciation of explained. He is prepared to vote for Part what fatherly and motherly love meant. (1) and Part (2) of the resolution and so am Equally, there had been an association with I. However, I would certainly wish to move children who never knew, in their youngest an amendment that Part (3) be deleted so days, what we took for granted, the love of that persons, either Tynwald Court or other good parents. In 1947 when the Juvenile members of the public will have an oppor- Panel was born there was a grievous sense tunity of judging this plan and its usage in of frustration among Magistrates. in fact,

Proposal to Provide Remand Home — Approved. T454 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

the only place to which young people could are young people. I know the fears that be sent was this residence at the top of can exist in some people's minds, we hear Douglas Court House. It was the physical about vandalism and one thing and another disabilities of that place that made it like that. I know that in the past it has been obnoxious. I have known many young necessary for some of our children to be people who have come to love that place, sent across to approved schools, now called not for the physical surroundings, but for community homes. I Would hope that what the care and attention given to them by a we are now providing is to provide these succession of people whose job it was to young people and others with a Home which look after them. However, accidental it may they, up to this time, have missed and in • have been along the course, it was, never- that respect have missed their birthright too. theless a wonderful thing that the Isle of I cannot, under any circumstances, condemn Man Government was able to place the approved schools, community homes call right people in the right place and whatever them what we like, the education given the physical disabilities were my word they and the care given is everything that one had a home that they had been entitled to could hope. The great trouble is that in from their childhood itself. I would like to that greater and faster community our own pay the most tremendous respect to all those young people did meet a kind of young people who had charge of this remand home. person that they never even previously Among the young boys and girls who found realised existed. When they returned to our their way there, there were those whe own Island they have brought back some- could be called very naughty young people. thing that was quite foreign to this Island I was not a particularly good boy myself. and there were occasions when it spread We remember these things and indeed those in other directions. I have no fears for the who had been unfortunate enough to be future whatever in anything in regard to the brought in there, the great majority of them proposal before us today, 1 wish it every were there by accident. It was the adven- success and I hope we will get complete turer who skated over the roofs of Strand support on all sides for it, nothing but good Street and found their way in through can stem from it, the open skylight. They were explorers. (Laughter.) The Speaker: Your Excellency,) was sur- prised that the Lord Bishop and the hon. Mr. Bell: And the police were the dis- member for South Douglas have seen fit coverers. today to beat the wind on this particular issue because they are fully aware that this Mr. Hislop: It was unfortunate that some- is no sort of quick gesture produced by any body had left the openings there for them, particular organisation in this Island. They It is a great joy to know today that some know full well that over a period of at twenty-five years after the Juvenile Panel least ten years now it has given concern to was born that the things that they had a number of Committees and at last we have sought would appear to be almost within managed to find a solution. I would con- reach. What is being provided here is some- gratulate the Committee on bringing forward thing which is more expensive than we had a solution, which I think is realistic under originally and to it has been added all those the circumstances. We have had it sug- other things to which a child should be gested today that the building will be full. entitled. It will house young people who I have had a look at figures stretching over have the one thing in common, that they a five year period and I find that remanded

Proposal to Provide Remand Home — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973 T455

figures were less than eight per year on answer to the problem of child delinquency, average. The detention figures were less than particularly not in Britain where the reform an average of seven. That approved school success is low. I would remind this hon. figures were less than three in a year. Your Court that Britain is prone to locking people Excellency, the very point which the Lord up and that its prison population is higher Bishop has made was considered by a Sub- than any other of the E.E.C. countries. As Committee consisting of the High Bailiff, has already been said, the number of young- the Government Secretary and the then sters that appear in our courts and arc likely Chairman of the Children's Care Committee to turn into juvenile delinquents, delinquent of the Education Board. They said this problems, is very small. The way we deal "There may be academic objections to with them is closely related to England remand and probation cases being accom- which I, and this is a personal opinion, feel modated in the same premises as convicted is a mistake. We are an Island, as you might persons, but it is recognised in the United say, in a closed situation and I believe we Kingdom that the distinction between should be experimenting to see if we could offenders and non-offenders is somewhat provide some solution to helping these artificial". This is after the whole position youngsters with these behaviour problems. had been thoroughly investigated on the As it is I realise that current opinion mainland in a variety of Homes examined is in favour of punishing these youngsters, and types of control looked at. The point for extreme and unacceptable behaviour, made by the hon. member for Ramsey is, by confining them in a remand home. I think, also pertinent and it was referred Punishment is one thing and rehabilitation to again in the Committee. It is also con- is another and this is where my doubts ceiveable, they said, that the Magistrates will are about the remand home. • I believe avail themeselves of facilities under the Act that one militates against the other. I believe to reduce the number of offenders com- that it is absolutely essential to keep the two mitted, at a considerable expense to the apart. The care side of the work, which is tax payer, to approved schools in England of the utmost importance, I feel that there bearing in mind that there are cogent reasons should have been some sort of hostel where to believe that the retention of many of the youngsters would find firm and kindly these young persons on the Island would discipline but if it is to be a success it is be more conducive to their reform and essential that it should be an ordinary home rehabilitation and I think that is a very situated, in my opinion, in an ordinary row important point in connection with this of houses just like any other home. The particular development that we must bear in essential ingredient is that it is just an mind. It is desirable that-we should go ahead ordinary part of the community. I was not with it in this form. It has been examined able to see the plans of this multi-purpose thoroughly and I believe that there should home before this morning because ap- be no further delay. parently they were unavailable, this I think was a pity. However, Your Excellency, why Mrs. Quayle: I have serious doubts about I have risen to my feet is that while I was a this multi-purpose Remand Home. I feel the magistrate and I was a magistrate for twelve proof of the pudding is in the eating and if I years, I one day woke up to the fact that thought that we were going to reform any nine of the youngsters, in Malew and some of of our wrong doers I would be the first to them are now in Castletown, who grew up say that it should be built. Sadly, the answer and went to Sunday School and grew up with is that no country and no person has the my own two youngsters, were becoming

Proposal to Provide Remand Home — Approved. T456 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

criminal types. I think I am right in saying Magistrates which studied the methods. Of they certainly went to approved school and I course I cannot go into it in detail but think borstal and I think most of them broadly speaking they found that the com- have been in and out of prison. From a munity as a whole recognised its responsibility rural area of possibly four or five thousand towards the young delinquents and society. people I think this is a matter of great That is every person in it you and me, and concern. As has already been said children saw to it that that child was involved and are not vicious rogues, they are just ordinary happily involved in all the activities going on. youngsters and when they come from These magistrates were amazed at the results inadequate backgrounds, if they are to be on these youngsters and it is interesting in prevented from becoming anti-social, the that context to find that the approved homes, handling of them is all important especially as we have now been told are to be called the hatidling of them by authority. I was so community homes, because I believe the concerned, I did not just go to places in feeling is coming into Britain that we must Britain, I did go to a classifying centre, I do very much more for these youngsters in spent a day in a borstal, I went to a couple of the community. I believe we should re-think approved schools, I spent a day, not locked and I think this is what they are doing, up, but in Strangeways Prison. I felt it was they are going to try to re-think their my duty to do everything I could to sense treatment of juvenile delinquents in England. and feel what was being done for these I think perhaps that this project that we youngsters the other side. I also took a have before us is merely perpetuating a great deal of trouble to find out what else system that has already proved itself to be was going on in the world and how other unsatisfactory here in the Island. I think we people were tackling this problem. When I should be thinking about and trying out was out in Australia I went to Sydney and completely new systems and therefore, as it also up in the North-West in a place called is against my penal philosophy, I do not Carnamah and talked to Magistrates and feel able to support it. saw what they were-doing out there. I spent a day with an Israeli magistrate and again The Governor: We will now adjourn for was taken to an institution and I went to a tea. place in Switzerland. Before the war I lived in Scandinavia so I had a good deal of The Court adjourned for tea. contact on what they are doing out there and I have read a good deal about what is taking place on the Continent. I feel that it is frightfully important that we should look PETITION OF ONCHAN VILLAGE at this, not only in the context of an Island, COMMISSIONERS TO EXTEND THEIR but in a wider sense because it is a world OFFICES AT MAIN ROAD—APPROVED. problem. I have been left with the conclusion that any punishment meted out must be The Governor: Now item 28, the Chair- completely divorced from any rehabilitation man of the Local Government Board. of that young person's behaviour. One thing that particularly interested me, one pattern Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, in of success as you might say, originated in respect of the Petition of the Onchan Village the Balkan country behind the Iron Curtain. Commissioners for authority to borrow a I might say that it provided much food for sum not exceeding £6,000, at a maximum thought for an International Conference of rate of interest not exceeding the rate of

Petition of Onchan Village Commissioners to Extend their Offices at Main Road — Approved. T457 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

lawful interest from time to time obtaining, lawful interest from time to time obtaining, repayable within a period of 60 years from repayable within a period of 30 years from the date of borrowing, for the purpose of the date of borrowing, for the purpose of extending the Petitioners' Offices at Main further road works in Arbory Street. I beg Road, Onchan. I beg to move that the to move that the Prayer of the foregoing Prayer of the .foregoing Petition be and Petition be and the same hereby granted. the same is hereby granted. Very briefly Castletown Commissioners, as we are all on these Petitions, the first Petition on behalf aware, are doing repairs to the various of the Onchan Commissioners. Over the roads in Castletown and came before the past ten years the population of Onchan Board expressing the view that as they had has virtually doubled and the resulting the contractor in the area doing the work increase in the administrative and technical it would be more beneficial to them to carry work for the Petitioners has necessitated the on with the next phase of the work. employment of additional staff, particularly in the Surveyors' Department leading to The Governor: Is that agreed? serious over-occupation of existing office accommodation. The Petition now before It was agreed. you seeks borrowing power to the sum of £6,000 to be repayable within 60 years from the date of borrowing, to enable the Peti- tioners to extend their office premises satis- REMAND HOME—DEBATE RESUMED. factorily to accommodate their staff. The proposals also includes the construction of a The Governor: Now reverting to item 7, car park. I have the figures of all the various the hon. member for Garff. tenders, if hon. members want them, but I would like to move that the Prayer of the Miss Thornton-Duesbery: Thank you, Petition be granted. Your Excellency. I would say at once that I welcome this resolution in all its parts The Governor: Is that agreed? wholeheartedly both as a Magistrate and as a member of the Board of Education. I It was agreed. have been a Magistrate, I think, for well over twenty years now and I feel that my time on the Juvenile Bench is very shortly coming to an end. I am grateful to feel that those who follow after me will, God PETITION OF CASTLETOWN willing, have a place suitable to which to COMMISSIONERS — ROAD WORKS send youngsters who come before them. In ARBORY STREET — APPROVED. all of my years there as a Magistrate I have yet to meet, what is the word, out and out The Governor: Item 29, the Chairman of villain. I have met plenty of little villains the Local Government Board. but not out and out villains. I feel that they are the children in need of help and of care. Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, in From the Board of Education stand point respect of the Petition of the Castletown we have so often been in such very great Town Commissioners for authority to borrow difficulty, I believe I was on the Children's a sum not exceeding f12,000, at a maximum Committee when it was first started, that is rate of interest not exceeding the rate of a long time ago now. We realised then that

■■••••■••••■■••■ ■ •■ Petition of Castletown Commissioners — Road Works Arbory Street — Approved. —Remand Home — Debate Resumed. T458 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

quite often, and it is the same thing today, in a constructive and helpful way about this, you have to have somewhere quickly where the more it will give the right amosphere to you can put a child who is in need. This is the public in the Island that this is a Home, a very urgent matter and this Home would not for young criminals, but a Home of re- be very suitable indeed for that, that children habilitation of help and assistance and it is can be put there for a short period and then, sending out into the world people who are it it is Lound that they are suitable and that remade and helped to face life as we want it is much better for them either to be them to do. adopted, they may return to their own parents best of all, but they could either Mr. Simcocks: Your Excellency, I am be adopted or go into one of the Homes rising to support this resolution. I was some- as a place became vacant for them. Now what disappointed at the attitude of the long stayers there, I think this perhaps, who Lord Bishop with respect to the information have never been committed before the Bench, given by the hon. mover. I think it is only I would say about this that I learnt a very fair to say that it almost sounded as if the great lesson many years ago, 1 took a party Court did not want him to say anything of girls away to camp who had never been The fact therefore that he did not go com- before the Bench, but I must say they were pletely into all details, I think, is a matter embryo offenders. Now I do not mean by for which he should not be blamed and that that they were full of mischief, that 1 am sure he will explain many points to have had plenty of amongst all my youngsters come. The hon. member for Castletown let through the years and 1 do not mind it a us know her opinions on the whole question bit, but these had dark and difficult com- of crime and punishment, looking after plexes, they were mainly from broken children etc. We, in the isle of Man I homes. I had one, for instance, who liked think, have a problem which is a good deal to inflict torture, there •,vas no doubt about narrower than the very wide concept which it I mean she would come up and stamp the hon. member for Castletown opened on you for no apparent reason and another before us. Many members of the Court will one went into the most dark passion. Well recall how strong were the efforts of the now I felt that these things were quite then hon. member for Douglas North, beyond me, I could not cope with them at Mr. Callister, in providing a Remand Home all. 1 have coped with youngsters for about in the Island. His argument had always been 50 years but these were quite, I felt that that it was a great shame that children they needed much more understanding and should be sent away from the Island to specialised training than 1 had had. 1 hope receive training in the United Kingdom away and trust and anything that I can do about from their homes simply because we had it I should see that those couples who we not got such an establishment here. It was have there are the sort of people who do generally accepted that this was a policy have the knowledge and the understanding which should be followed and the Sub- to cope with this type of child as well as Committee, which I joined some two years with those who have actually been before ago, to look into this problem was primarily the Bench because there is, as one or two faced with the task of providing a Remand hon. members here have said, really no Home in the Island to replace what every- difference, they are all children in need of body has, I am sure, accepted as the wholly care and help. Where I think we are going unsuitable accommodation above the Court- to have the difficulty is to get this across house. As the hon. Mr. Speaker has told to the Island and 1 think the more we speak the Court, the numbers of children in the

Remand Home — Debate Resumed. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973 T459

Island, who would be directly affected by children these Homes sometimes exercise the existence of a Remand Home are so their perfectly legitimate right to elect not small that it is simply just not a proposition to take them. They run their establishments to run a Remand Home, which would deal in a very useful way but the fact remains with nothing else but children who are in that there are children who require to be need of training because of conviction for taken into care, who require to be protected offences. I think, therefore, it is a great pity who are not acceptable to these private that the Lord Bishop should have imputed organisations. This has created immense to the mover of this resolution meanness and trouble for the Children's Committee of the the opportunity of taking it out of children Board of Education. I myself have heard in order to save money. Quite honestly the Director of Education recounting events nothing like that was in the mind of the where he has been ringing up homes during Committee at all. What we had in mind the night to try and find a place for a child, was that it would be quite foolish to have a small baby dumped in the offices of the an expensive Home, staffed by two couples Board by a young unmarried mother who so as to have time off for one and so as to said, "get on with it". These are the sort have wives as well as husbands to look of problems which do exist and these are after both sets of children, it would be the sort of problems which we believe can quite ridiculous to have an organisation be very much alleviated by the existence of which might well spend many weeks or even a Home such as is before us for consider- many months completely empty. The fact ation today. What it will provide is a three that this is one of the happier sides of the bedroomed living unit each for two married Island in that the incidence of juvenile couples. These three bedroomed living units crime is relatively low but because of that may very easily have provision made for it became necessary for some way to be children to be under the direct care of the found which would justify the provision of wardens or it may be that the children would remand facilities in the Island. It was for be in the main building but the fact that that purpose that the Committee had long there are children on remand and children and wide ranging discussions with the who are victims of circumstances in the Children's Committee of the Board of same establishment, the advice which we Education. It was in concert with that took and which we accepted is that in fact Committee and as a result of the visit by no difficulties normally arise from an the mover of this resolution to an establish- arrangement like this and it is very often ment both in Hertfordshire and also in the to the mutual benefit of both types. It does Island of Jersey that brought forward a seem to me that if we are to take a step proposition under which there would be a which would undoubtedly delight the heart multi-purpose Home which could provide of our old colleague, Edward Canister, if we the facilities for children who were problem are to take a step in the right direction, I am children both in the sense of what had sure this Court ought to accept the resolution happened to them and what they had done. which is before us. I believe it will go very You see, Your Excellency, we have in far to meet our problems and having regard this Island two very excellent Children's to the small numbers who live on the Island Homes, one in Ramsey and one in Douglas, and the extremely small numbers of delin- but the fact is that neither of these Homes quent children for whom we have to cater, are run by Departments of the Government I am sure this is much the best way of of the Isle of Man. The result is that where dealing with the problem, much the most there are any severe problems attached to practical way and one which I personally

Remand Home — Debate Resumed. T460 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

recommend very strongly to the Court this not agree more with what the last speaker morning. has just said and I think some of my col- leagues regretted the mistake we have made, Mr. Kneale: Your Excellency, I feel the it is a multi-purpose Home. I must take only thing that is wrong with this resolution the very strongest exception to the remarks is the fact that we use the words "purpose- of the Lord Bishop that this was just being built Remand Home" and what we did not done in this way for economy reasons. Your use the title of `'multi-purpose Home" as Excellency, that is not just the case at all. was intended. Listening to some members of Last week I talked to Lord Colville of the the Court speaking you would think that Home Office who was very delighted with all children fell into two categories they this proposition. He pointed out to me that are either white or black — white angels or this is what they are doing and all the black villains. We know that this is not true Homes that they are dealing with at the and we know that many of the children moment are being dealt with in this way, that will be accommodated in this Home in the multi-purpose aspect. They are not will be children whose home life has •sud- making Remand Homes as such for a denly collapsed on them and have had to be single purpose any longer anywhere in the taken into care. We have got various country. Neither are they in Jersey where categories of places where we can deal with they are spending some £100,000 a year and children, foster homes, Children's Homes in they have a greater problem than we have Douglas and Ramsey. We had a Detention on child care. I would pay the greatest Centre cum Remand Home, as it was called, tribute to both the Children's Homes on the which was a disgrace to the Island and if Island. We in the Island have been most we have any of these really villainous young fortunate in that we have had such wonder- fellows that we hear about, there is always ful people, where there are real home the possibility of them getting sent to a atmospheres and I would assure the Lord proper Community Centre where they can Bishop that these people will still have be catered for across. There was also the suitable children sent to them but here, at question that was raised in the Bill, the last, we will have a place where we can Children and Young Persons Bill that Mr. deal with problem children and problem Clucas was taking charge of, we were trying families. (Interruption.) There are often two to deal in that Bill with the eventuality of or three children whose parents have disap- these young monkeys suddenly creating a peared and the Board of Education have to disruption in a Remand Home when we find somewhere to put them. It is sometimes produced it. We know the difficulties if we difficult to find people who will tackle child- run into that. However, I feel that we have ren with problems. There are those very nice got enough categories of accommodation in little children that we would all easily the Island to make sure that we segregate accept into our homes but there are also the children properly so that we do not have those who unfortunately are not so nice and the villains corrupting the lesser villains and let us face facts, at least as far as I am I feel that we made a mistake, the only concerned, as somebody said, there but for mistake in this resolution by calling it a the grace of God go 1. That was absolutely "purpose-built Remand Home". true, Your Excellency, I would have been in such a Home if justice had been done The Governor: Do you wish to reply? when I was a child because I remember putting the schoolmaster on his back on the Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I could floor. If that would not have put me there I

Remand Home —Debate Resumed. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973 T461

do not know what would. We all go through I am very much concerned because I am that stage of being a bit wild as youngsters. concerned about our young people growing I think that the hon. member for Rushen up that they do get a chance that so many has said and Mr. Kneale, the hon. member of us have had and has been denied for West Douglas, there is not just that them. We hope that this will succeed and clear cut definition between the convicted the only thing is that I would say in closing ones and those not convicted. There are thank the Finance Board for letting us those, as I say, with problems who are just get this far and I do hope that when as difficult to deal with. I do not quite it comes to Budget time, because we honestly know what the hon. member for have still got to get through Budget time, Castletown is getting at or really what does that we will get sympathetic understanding she want. First of all let me say that this because I think this is vital to the good Committee will not be the people who will Government of this Island. At the present be responsible for the running of this time, Your Excellency, we are not able Home. His Excellency, under the Act, and to fulfil the requirements of the law, I gather that he will try and collaborate we cannot just get people to look after with the Board of Education in handling children in those present circumstances. I do this, but where I have seen it they have a hope for the wholehearted support not only psychiatrist, a psychologist and people who of the Court here today but the Finance were coming in to make assessment of the Board when we advance it a little further. requirements of a child. I agree with punish- Thank you You Excellency, I beg to move. ing children corporally, I agree that there are those that the cane is the solution to, The Governor: I shall put the question it is not for every child and it is absolutely in two parts, (1) and (2) and then (3). Those wrong in some cases but they have to have in favour of parts (I) and (2) of the res- assessment to see which is the better way olution please say aye. Those against please to deal with them and I am hoping, Your say no. Those in favour of part (3) please say Excellency, that those who will be respon- aye. Those against please say no. sibile for this Home will provide such facilities because I know that the Board of A division was called for and voting Education have got their own psychologist. resulted as follows — Ballamona Hospital is only just up the road where we have got two psychiatrists. In the Keys. These children come from problem homes, whether they are convicted or not, it is For: Messrs. Anderson, MacLeod, very often the case that they are problem Kermeen, Radcliffe, Miss Thornton- children. They can be helped by the psychia- Duesbery, Messrs. Ranson, Spittall, trist or the psychologist, in some cases they Simcocks, Crellin, Moore, Irving, can be helped by being punished for what Kneale, Devereau, MacDonald, Hislop, they have done, as I was often punished and Sir Henry Sugden and the Speaker — 17. 1 do not know that it did me all that much good but it certainly did not do me much Against : Mrs. Quayle, Mr. Bell, and Miss harm. I would say that there is in this Cowin —3. concept here I believe what will meet the needs of the Island and meet them in a way The Speaker: Your Excellency, the res- which will, I think, be satisfactory to all the olution carries in the Keys 17 votes being people who are concerned with child welfare. cast in favour and 3 votes against.

Remand Home — Debate Resumed. T462 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

In the Council. the Isle of Man. We find ourselves in the fortunate position, at the present moment, For: The Lord Bishop, Messrs. Bolton, that our rate from our Special Drainage Radcliffe, Corkhill, Crowe, Kerruish Districts in the next year will have risen by and Quayle 7. some £3,400 from £12,000 to £15,400 so therefore we have no necessity to increase Against: Deemster Moore — 1. our rate at all. Mr. MacLeod: Your Excellency, may I The Governor: 7 in favour and 1 against ask a question. With regard to this at Patrick the resolution in the Council. The resolution Corner if they are going to pay a rate of also carries there. 6p and the rest of St. John's are going to pay the equivalent of a half a crown or two shillings.

SPECIAL DRAINAGE DISTRICT RATES Mr. P. Radcliffe: What are you talking —APPROVED. about?

The Governor: Item No. 8, the Chairman Mr. Bell: He needs notice of that question! of the Local Government Board. Mr. P. Radcliffe: I need no notice of the Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, 1 beg question at all, sir, because it is entirely to move wrong. That for the year commencing 12th May 1973 Tynwald approves of the Isle of Man The Governor: Is that agreed? Local Government Board levying a rate of– (1) by in the pound in each of the Special Drainage Districts set out in Section 4(1) of the Mr. MacLeod: The question I was asking, Local Government (Special Drainage Districts) Your Excellency, was why are there two Act 1952 and also in the following Special different Drainage Rates in St. John's? One Drainage Districts constituted by the Board by for the Patrick Corner and one for the Order since the said Act came into operation: Village, that is all I am asking. What is Newtown, Scram,: Glen Auldyn, Lezayre; Ba!- lafesson, Rusher': Lower Ballakillowey, Rushen; the answer? Maughold Village; Kirk Michael Village; Sulky, Lezayre; Glen Mona, Maughold; Dalby, Pat- The Governor: I think the hon. member trick; Upper Bahakillowey, Rusher': Colby, has confused himself and the Court. Arbory: Glen Road, Colby, Arhory; Balla- kilpheric, Rusher': Jurby; Shore Road, Rushen; Sultry, Lezayre No. 2 District; Colby, Rusher' and Patrick Corner; and (2) 2p in the pound in Port-e-Vullen, Maug- FIRE SERVICES RATE ORDER - hold, Special Drainage District. APPROVED. I would just like to make one brief comment and draw the attention of the hon. members The Governor: Item No. 9, the Chairman of this hon. Court to the fact that it is also of the Local Government Board. the policy pursued by the Local Govern- ment Board in permitting the majority of Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, 1 beg the development that takes place in areas to move where there is a Special Drainage District and not sporadic development throughout That the Fire Services Rate Order 1973

Special Drainage District Rates— Approved. — Fire Services Rate Order Approved. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973 T463

made by the Isle of Man Local Government Man) Act 1971 that a payment out of the Manx Board on the 19th January 1973 be and the National Insurance (Reserve) Fund shall not be same is hereby approved. made other than under the authority of a resolution of Tynwald. RESOLVED. That Tynwald authorises the This means that the fire rate will gradually payment out of the Manx National Insurance be increased from eight-tenths of a penny (Reserve)Fund into the Manx National In- to one penny and this is brought about surance Fund of a sum not exceeding because of the increasing costs on the Fire £557,500. Services that has to be met by a certain The Governor: Is that agreed? amount of rate. There is a Bovernment Grant of £3,000 laid down in the Fire It was agreed? Services Act and the interest on investments amount to £1,268 and we therefore feel that it is appropriate, at this stage, to increase our fire rate from eight-tenths of MANX MUSEUM — £5,000 TOWARDS a penny to one penny and I beg to move. PURCHASE OF TAUBMAN PAINTINGS — APPROVED. The Governor: Agreed? The Goveronr :; Item No. 11, Mr. Speaker. It was agreed. The Speaker: Your Excellency, 1 beg to Mr. Kneale: On a point of order, I would move — refer to Standing Order 50, I think it is just as well to keep the records correct. That Tynwald– (1) approves a vote not exceeding £5,000, being a contribution to the Manx Museum and The Governor: Well I think if the Court National Trust in their endeavour to purchase shout agreed, they are virtually seconding at auction, and return to the Isle of Man, it but it would be a great help if people certain important 18th century oil paintings, proposing resolutions did secure a seconder comprising in all four portraits of the Taubman family of the Nunnery; before they sat down. (2) authorises the Treasurer to expend during the year ending 31st March 1974 from Mr. Spittall: I did second it Your Excel- Capital Transactions Account a sum not ex- lency, but it was agreed before I got up. ceeding £5,000 for that purpose: (3) approves of borrowings not exceeding £5,000 being made by the Government under the provisions of the Isle of Man Loans Act 1958 for the purpose of meeting expenditure PAYMENT INTO MANX NATIONAL under the foregoing paragraphs of this Reso- lution, such borrowing to be repaid within a INSURANCE FUND FROM ITS period of five years. • RESERVE FUND — APPROVED. The resolution I have the privilege of The Governor: Item No. 10, is there placing before the Court today is quite anybody from Social Security to move this. unusual in character as 1 think that, for the first time ever, Tynwald so often accused of Mr. MacLeod: Your Excellency, l beg to materialism and a blind disregard of all move— forms 01 Manx culture is being afforded an opportunity to participate in the possible WHEREAS it is provided by subsection (4) of Section 85 of the National Insurance (Isle of purchase, for the Manx Nation, of works

Payment into Manx National Insurance Fund from its Reserve Fund — Approved.— Manx Museum —£5,000 Towards Purchase of Taubman Paintings — Approved. T464 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

of art by an eminent eighteenth century to and from the Island. (Laughter.) He was painter, works regarded by the Manx virtually known as the Great Taubman and Museum and many other informed persons it was big wealth that presumably accounts as being of considerable Manx historical for Romney having been commissioned to interest. The opportunity, Your Excellency, paint his wife and two of his children. The arises through the sale at Christie's Sale other two fine Romney paintings are of a Rooms in London in April of four oil son John and a daughter Christian. This son, paintings. All are.portraits of members of a third John Taubman 17 - 1822, had held a the Taubman family and three of which commission in the regular army before are certainly the work of the famous returning to the Island and was a Captain eighteenth century portrait painter, George and later a Major in the Manx Fencibles Rommey and the fourth, that of Deemster at the time of the painting of this portrait. John Taubman is not considered an auth- He became Speaker of the Keys in 1799 entic Romney. Why do these pictures have and occupied this office until his death in a particular interest to the Island? In this 1822. His sister Christian 1753 - 1832 clearly connection the history of the paintings is a beauty, as the hon. member will have both interesting and informative. The Taub- appreciated, on the evidence of the Romney mans were an influential Manx family in the portrait, married a Colonel Cunningham, an eighteenth century with ties, by marriage, Irish Officer, in 1791 and they lived at to the Christians of Milntown, the Curwens Ballanorris and she and her husband are and other leading families of the Lake both buried at Arbory. The facts, hon. District. Such links are most probably members, that the sitters of the four portraits responsible for members of the family being are firmly identified and can be placed in painted by Romney, himself a Lake District their historical setting greatly adds to the man who worked at Kendal before his move interest and value of the pictures from the to London. The Taubman pictures relate to Manx point of view. All four sitters are three generations of the family, and photo- Manx and the pictures have hung in the graphs of these have been in both the Keys Isle of Man since the time that they were members' Room and in the Council painted. These pictures clearly represent an Chamber. The earliest is that of Deemster outstanding group of Manx portraits of John Taubman 1694 - 1762, a pleasant considerable historical importance and out- bewigged gentleman you will have noticed standing artistic quality. Only one other on the evidence of his portrait, who was Manx eighteenth century portrait of com- for many years a member of the Keys and parable quality is known and that is of became a Deemster at the age of 53 in another member of the Taubman family 1747, an office which he held until his death. and was by Gainsborough. So the Island The next portrait is that of his nephew's obviously has not produced many pictures wife Esther 1712-1802, shown in the accomp- of this quality and those that do exist must lished Romney painting as an impressive be regarded as Manx National Treasures and dignified lady full of character. She that cannot be allowed to be lost to the was the daughter of Deemster Nicholas Island. As hon. members well know the Art Christian of Ballastowle, Maughold. Her Gallery of the Manx Museum has a great husband, a second John Taubman, was also wealth of landscape paintings but a relative a member of the Keys and a powerful Manx dearth of portraits of high calibre. The Merchant of the middle eighteenth century, forthcoming sale of these four portraits and this will interest you sir, the heyday of clearly represent a very exceptional event course of the maritime trade in smuggling of outstanding importance to the National

Manx Museum — £5.000 Towards Purchase of Taubman. Paintings — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973 T465

Collections of the Isle of Man and the which had recently been increased to opportunity afforded us of acquiring such £425,000 annually, for grants of up to 50 works for the Nation must of course be per cent. of the purchase price of works given the fullest consideration. In making of art and other similar items of interest. this approach to Tynwald and asking Naturally, you will appreciate in this Island Government to contribute towards a possible ..we are not eligible to participate in this purchase, do not think hon. members for a grant and the Museum felt that when an moment that the Museum is coming feebly, oppportunity such as this presented itself, cap in hand, asking for the complete price Tynwald would wish to show that it too of these pictures and expecting Government is as concerned with retaining for posterity to provide all the necessary funds. They works a local interest as is the U.K. themselves are providing, from monies, from Government. It certainly must be recognised Trustee Funds and bequests left specifically that this is an opportunity, lost would never for such a purpose quite a considerable occur again and I commend the resolution proportion of the expected purchase price. to the Court. The Friends of the Museum have promised to help from their admittedly limited Miss Thornton-Duesbery: I beg to second resources. A public appeal has been made, Your Excellency, and reserve my remarks. as you will have realised from your news- papers, and the response has been heartening Mr. Bell: Your Excellency, this sounds and even from outside the Island organis- almost crazy and if we have a Board coming ations such as the National Art Collections along and asking for a virement of money Fund have been approached and promised us contained in their estimates, well maybe that a grant of £2,000 and the Pilgrim Trust a is nothing to do with Tynwald Court, they further £1,000 to enable us to achieve this can sort that out with the Treasury. How- objective. As members are undoubtedly ever, we are talking about a body with aware the Museum does not lightly embark Tynwald representatives on, which has had on an operation on this scale and have done a bit of a slating in the past when it comes to so, in this case, in the realisation that it estimates time. They have been told to use is almost certainly now or never as far as every endeavour they can to make them- these outstanding pictures are concerned. selves, if not self supporting, at least income The pictures, I would inform hon. members, deriving, and we have been given no figures are being sold separately at auction and so, at all as to what is happening here. for obvious reasons, we cannot state either Now it is just as if someone on the Museum our total resources nor what price the expert Trust Committee has heard that these advisers had indicated they might fetch. pictures are on and they would like to have However, it is believed that with Tynwald them. I do not think that the public of the supporting the acquisition to the amount Isle of Man care a toss about these pictures, indicated in this vote, the Museum have a no matter what the members of the Museum reasonable chance of securing at least some Trust think. Maybe a majority of this of the pictures or perhaps even all of them. Tynwald Court may believe that we should I would stress that while it is unusual for an have them, or that we should buy all these approach of this type to be made here in other things. No one has approached me and Tynwald, it is quite commonplace as far as this agenda has been made public for some other museums throughout the length and time now, and it is my birthday today, but breadth of Britain are concerned, as the it is not the Museum's birthday, as far as British Treasury makes available a sum, I am concerned. I am waiting to hear when

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sit down, Your Excellency, whether any conscience and remind the public conscience members of this Tynwald Court have got of Tynwald Court that the Chairman of the anything at all to say about spending or Nobles' Hospital Management Committee allowing this money to be spent, bearing in secured banner headlines in the newspapers mind that we have just recently had a for the threatened shortages of the hospital financial crisis, so we have been told. We are services. The Chairman of Ballamona Hos- keenly aware, I am sure of what has happened pital has drawn the attention of this Court throughout the Island since the interest rate and the public to the fact that private money went to 10 per cent., that the tax payers, and public money have been spent at Glen- who are also the electorate, have got bigger crutchery to build a hostel for the living, financial burdens to bear to cover the not monuments to the dead, so that children services that they are committed to for this in need and parents in distress can get some year, without us putting another £5,000 or weekend relief by their children being in so on to the tax demand for the coming hostels. The money has come from the Isle year. If it is not going to be an extra of Man Children's Home Committee and £5,000 on the tax demand then it is going part from Government and it is lying up to he a reduction of £5,000 throughout all there in Glencrutchery Road rotting away. the other Boards. Possibly the Remand Here we have got something which the public Home might get £31,000 instead of £36,000 or and the members of this Tynwald Court are if there is to be a cut someone is going to be genuinely and deeply involved in, committed cut or we are going to increase taxation. It is to and nothing has been done to remedy on taxation evidently that we get our money, this because we have all made our claim 1 really do hope that the members are here for the money, we have gone through going to consider this seriously, because the exercise, we have voted or we have sat this is a question which is important to the on 'the fence and we feel that we have done Treasury as it is for the taxpayer. If the our duty. We have tried. I believe we have Treasury think that we are going to vote not tried hard enough and that the obstacle and support every frippery that comes along that we have to overcome is a little higher like this, then they are either going to look or a little harder than we thought at first, for a declaration from us as to where the that is no reason to give up and pretend money is to come from or they are to assume that we never had an obstacle or that there that it is to be taken from our own Boards. never was just cause to fight for, such as the The Social Services, Mental Health, Swim- mentally handicapped. Instead we prefer to ming Pool in the south, are we to cut some forget that these things ever existed, a month of the staff of the Local Government Board or two months ago, and we deal with a matter because the sacred cow of 4s. 3d. is certainly on an agenda which is to be dealt with in not going to be slain? There is no question complete isolation to every other matter of at all about it There will be no increase public importance. I like to look at pictures in taxation in this House's time. So someone which are hanging in the Keys Chamber is going to have to pay this £5,000. If down below, occasionally. However, I would Government are already paying more for certainly never be a party to spending or to the money they are borrowing and are contributing £5,000 of money which we have committed to, that means that if the income not got and will have to borrow to get at this year even remains the same as last year, at rate of interest that we reluctantly have we are in for a very hard time when we to agree to in order to purchase something come to Budget and Estimates. A very hard that no one in Tynwald Court has even time indeed. I still want to remind the public asked for. Whereas, all of the things that

Manx Museum — £5.000 Towards Purchase of Taubman Paintings -- Approved. T467 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

the Boards, the elected members, elected on. It is done in the adjacent island quite by the public and coming here speaking readily and it is a common practice amongst for their Boards, we have been refused or all civilised communities to try and keep have been cut. This is a question, as we works of art and historical importance in have heard the phrase used before often, those communities. Here is a chance which let us get our priorities right. There will be is quite unique, if we miss it now these a division on this. Is the division to show very precious paintings will go somewhere that the priorities of some members are to but not to the place where they ought to get old oil paintings banging up or are the be. I hope that we shall give a vote for priorities to support the internal policy of history and culture in voting for what the government of stable taxation by going Speaker proposes, even if, as I always say through the motions of estimates, by on these occasions, we drop a few corners accepting our budgets and our cuts and on one of Mr. Kerruish's roads, a very few saying that the only answer or alternative yards of road would pay for these paintings. is to have higher taxation? Now you cannot However, I do not want to alienate him by have your cake and eat it. I give notice as putting it in precisely that kind of way, it is expected of me, Your Excellency that I is a matter of whether we value culture and will oppose the resolution. history or not.

The Lord Bishop: Your Excellency, I Miss Thornton Duesbery: Your Excel- wonder whether on this occasion 1 could lency, just one or two things that I would speak dead contrary to the last speaker. like to say in supporting this resolution. First of all, as a member of the Museum Mr. Bell: In your position you can do executive, I would like very strongly to refute anything you like! (Laughter.) something which the hon. member for South Douglas said that probably somebody just The Lord Bishop: Your Excellency, I have heard about these pictures and thought it rarely had anything so gratifying said, but would be nice to buy them. Anything further I assure the hon. member that I shall not from the truth one could not imagine. This take advantage of that permission. I feel was gone into most deeply and carefully by that the hon. member is making a very the Trustees. large mountain out of a very small molehill in this connection. The £5,000 is a lot of Mr. Bell: I never said that. money looked at from one point of view. However, from the point of view of the Mr. Clucas: You did! total expenditure of this Government, it is not a great amount for this unique thing Mr. MacDonald: Would not they give which stands in front of us. Then we need them to us? to remember as well, Your Excellency, that the cost of the pictures will not be £5,000. Miss Thornton-Duesbery: That would be What we are being asked to do is to nice but of course they might have done subsidise an effort being done by other but that unfortunately slipped beyond us, people, part of it as I gather from the but the thing he said as the hon. Speaker Speaker a voluntary effort. It is a very good said, the Trustees and the Museum executive, principle in Government that where people they no not embark lightly on this sort of have a. good thing in mind in a voluntary project. To begin with, their financial aspect, the Government should help them resources are far too precious and too scanty.

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Precious because such money as the Museum The Speaker: Your Excellency, an aside does hold, and it is very little, is largely during the course of the debate was an from bequest and trust funds and therefore interesting one, I think the hon. member for spending of them is a' very great responsi- Peel said "Would not they give them to us?" bility. Yet the Trustees have thought in this Now there is an interesting background to case that some of that money should be this as far as the House is concerned, in this spent on this project, that it was worth it. way. It was the intention of Bacchus Goldie- The friends of Manx Museum they have Taubman to donate these pictures to the also thought the same thing and have Museum. Unfortunately, he died before he promised a very generous contribution from could fulfil his wish. The trustees fulfilling their very slender resources. Members of the their trust obligations have been unable to public have seen and responded and shown do anything but sell them. That is the their desire that the treasures of the Island position that faces us today and which I remain with us for posterity. Some of the know the Court is going to accept and will gifts have been more substantial but some support the resolution. The opposition, I have been very small, but very costly to the did not realise when I got to my feet that people who gave them because they did feel this was such an auspicious occasion, the that they wanted these pictures kept, that birthday of the hon. member for Douglas they belonged, that they were treasures that South. Your Excellency, I will congratulate they were ours. 1 think too that we must the hon. member not only on his birthday, realise that the pictures are very good, but but I must believe that he feels gratified they are not internationally famous so they that have afforded him on his birthday are within our reach which is important. To the opportunity to indulge in his favourite us Manx people they are very important pastime, baiting the Manx Museum. because they are of people who are part (Laughter.) of our Island history. I would stress very much that as the Speaker said that this is The Governor: I shall now put the not an uncommon thing at all for a Govern- question, those in favour please say aye, ment to give a grant towards such an those against say no. aquisition as this. We are following in the usual customary way in coming to the hon. A division was called for and voting members here, Your Excellency, to help us resulted as follows: in this matter. Personally I am very jealous that the Legislature of today should go In the Keys: down in history as having been truly concerned to preserve the treasures of the For: Messrs. MacLeod, Kermeen, Clucas, Island for its people and not allow them Radcliffe, Miss Thornton - Duesbery, to be lost for posterity. Because I feel that Messrs. Ranson, Spittall, Crellin, people coming after us I would like them Faragher, Mrs. Quayle, Mr. Moore, to think of us, of the Legislature of this Miss Cowin, Messrs. Kneale and Hislop, day and age with gratitude and not with scorn Sir Henry Sugden, the Speaker — 16. at having allowed those things which are precious to the heart of our people to go Against: Messrs. Anderson, Simcocks, Bell, beyond our reach. Irving, Devereau and MacDonald — 6.

The Governor: Do you wish to reply The Speaker: Your Excellency, the res- Mr. Speaker? olution carries in the House of Keys 16

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votes being cast in favour and 6 votes (2) authorises the Treasurer of the Isle of against. Man to expend during the year ending 31st March 1973 from Capital Transactions Account a sum not exceeding £2,000 to enable the In the Council: Government Property Trustees to proceed with the scheme, and (3) approves of and sanctions borrowings For: The Lord Bishop, Deemster Moore, not exceeding £2,000 being made by the Messrs. Radcliffe, Kerruish and Quayle Government under the provisions of the Isle of —5. Man Loans, Act 1958 for the purpose of meeting the above expenditure, such borrow- ings to be repaid within a period of five years. Against: Messrs. Bolton, Corkhill and Crowe — 3. Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, I beg to second. The Governor: 5 in favour and 3 against in the Council, the resolution therefore Mr. MacDonald: I am just interested carries. because I am a bit naive, but I have never before seen an explosive and ammunition dump being advertised so openly, you know, that if you go to Building 311 at Jurby, STATEMENT BY CHAIRMAN OF you will find an explosive dump there for ELECTRICITY BOARD — STRIKE your helping. Come ashore at Jurby in a CALLED OFF. boat and take it away! I have never seen anything like that in my life. The Governor: Now the hon. member for Rushen, Mr. Faragher, wishes to make a statement. Mr. Crowe: This is not factual at all sir. The present licensed stores is at the Corony in Maughold and this is a very, very old Mr. Faragher: Your Excellency, on a building and it would certainly never get point of information I would like to make another licence. This ammunition store at it known to the Court that there will be no electricity strike. Jurby which was in use .30 years ago is underground and it would make a very good explosive store but it has to have a quarter inch lining of steel and the door has to be a steel door, and this has happened at Poortown GOVERNMENT PROPERTY TRUSTEES — PROVISION OF EXPLOSIVES STORE Quarry and the same operation has to be carried out there. The Highway Board are the — APPROVED. biggest users of explosives in the Island, and certainly we have to have a licensed store to The Governor: Item 12. The Chairman of the Government Trustees. enable us to use explosives in the Island as and when we wish to have them. There is only 15 tons being used throughout the year, Mr. Crowe: Your Excellency, I beg to move :— but it is essential that when we require them they must be on tap. This is the only way That Tynwald— that we can get it, by having a licensed store. (1) approves of the scheme for the modifi- The Governor: cation of Building No. 311 at Jurby Airport to Is that agreed? enable its use as a central storage depot for bulk explosives, at an estimated cost of £2,000, It was agreed.

Statement by Chairman of Electricity Board--Strike Called Off. — Government Property Trustees — Provision of Explosives Store — Approved. T470 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

HARBOUR DUES — APPROVED. PAYMENT OF MEMBERS' EXPENSES ACT 1962 ORDER — APPROVED.

The Governor: Item 13. Chairman of the The Governor: Item 14. The Attorney- Harbour Board. General.

The Attorney-General: Your Excellency, Mr. MaeDonild: Your Excellency, I beg I beg to move:— to move:—

WHEREAS by virtue of Section 55 and That the Payment of Members' Expenses subsection (c) of the Harbours (Isle of Man) Act 1962 Order 1973 made. by His Excellency Act 1961, the Isle of Man Harbour Board may the Lieutenant Governor on the 19th January with the approval of Tynwald determine' and 1973,..urider Sectio-ri 2 (1) of the Payment of charge passenger dues. Members' Expenses Act 1962 be and the same AND WHEREAS the Board have deter- is hereby approved. mined that, with effect from the 1st day of April 1973, there shall be charged the passenger dues specified in the Schedule to this resolu- Deemster Moore: Your Excellency, I beg tion. to second.

RESOLVED– The Governor: Is that agreed? (1) That the passenger dues and the rate thereof specified in the Schedule to this Resolu- It was agreed. tion be and the same are hereby approved. 121 That the passenger dues specified in paragraph 3 of the resolution of Tynwald passed on 15th February 1972, be and the same are hereby revoked. CUSTOMS (I.O.M.) (No. 1) ORDER - (3) That paragraphs (1) and (2) of this APPROVED, Resolution shall have effect on and from the 1st day of April 1973. (4) That this Resolution may be cited as the The Governor: Item 15. Harbour Dues 1973 The Attorney-General: Your Excellency, I beg to move:— SCHEDULE That the Customs (Isle of Man) (No. 1) In Addition to charges under paragraph 1 of Order 1973 made by His Excellency on the the Harbour Dues, Tolls and Regulations 1972, 31st January 1973 be and the same is hereby in respect of each passenger embarked and -approved. disembarked 9p This order is a result of the obligations of but if carried for a distance of less than ten the Isle of Man on entering into the nautical miles from a harbour 3p Economic Community of Europe. The order imposes briefly on products imported Mr. Clucas: Your Excellency, I beg to into the Isle of Man from countries outside second. the E.E.C. levies of the same amount as those which will be imposed in the U.K. The Governor: Is that agreed? Those are the ones which are imposed to fulfil the obligations under the Protocol. It was agreed. Deemster Moore: Your Excellency, I beg

Harbour Dues — Approved. — Payment of Members' Expenses Act 1962 Order—Approved. — Customs (I.O.M.) (No. 1) Order Approved. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973 T47I

to second, and as the learned Attorney- indeed. On the other hand matters such as General said, this arises from the acceptance the subject we talked about this morning, of the Protocol 3 special conditions to the about eggs, Community graded eggs, that is Isle of Man and Channel Isles. As he has graded to Community standards, Community rightly said this is carrying out an obligation obligation now, given entry into the Isle of which we have accepted. It is in fact to Man. On the other hand the importation of impose levies on agricultural imports, the eggs which are not graded to Community common external tariff which goes on all standard may be restricted. Then the third imports from outside the Community being point which was not mentioned this morning dealt with separately. The order now is as is I think worth mentioning, and that is the result of our having accepted the that locally produced eggs which are not common external tariff and the importation graded to Community standard may be sold levies on agricultural goods. The only matter within the Isle of Man. In other words, if which is outstanding now as between the there are locally produced eggs which are Isle of Man Committee and the Community, not graded to Community standards and is the detailed provisions as to how to allow do not have the 'stamp, I think it is I to 10 the free movement and the observance of or whatever the number is, then they could normal conditions of competition and trade be sold locally but they must be sold within in agricultural products. That is part of the Isle of Man. There is, however, an article 1, `sub-paragraphs 2 and 3 of the obvious difficulty in that the price which special Protocol. The first paragraph of they are presently obtaining is going of that article sets out that levies and to be and has been higher than the Com- other import measures laid down in Com- munity eggs will attract and therefore their munity rules shall be applied to third prospect of sale would not be rated very parties, which means that that we are highly. There is another aspect which I under an obligation to impose the agricul- think possibly that I just want to finish. I tural levies which the Community imposes have said that agricultural goods coming on agricultural products going into any into the Isle of Man from outside the Community country. That is if we are Community are going to be subject to a doing by this order. This morning amongst levy on the order which is now before us. other things, we were discussing the question In the Community themselves it is provided of the possibility of aids to agriculture, in that there will be export subsidies for facts aids to industry altogether. The Treaty agricultural goods which are exported from of Rome by Article 93 does provide that a Community country to outside the Com- certain aids can be given, but aids which munity. Now because community Agricul- are intended to be given by any part of the tural prices may be for a particular Community to their own industry whether agricultural product, higher than world it is to agriculture or otherwise, the schemes prices, to encourage those exports to outside must be submitted to the Council of Europe the Community, the Community provides for approval and that is provided for. The subsidies. Whether we do the same here will Community then have to see whether the be a matter which Tynwald will have to aids proposals are unfair trading, which is decide, and it may be necessary for legis- the test all the time. If it is not unfair lation to be enacted to enable Tynwald to trading then agriculture aids or industrial do so if it wishes. aids can be given and I think it is rather important to say that. Fishing would be a Sir Henry Sugden: Your Excellency, I very good example, a very good example would like to ask what is going to happen

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about wheat? We do import quite a con- to be levied as well and put up the price siderable quantity of that for our bread of clothes? making from, I understand, Canada.

Deemster Moore: Wool from Australia Mr. Irving: Your Excellency, I wonder will undoubtedly be subject, so will wheat if the learned Deemster would confirm that from Canada, so will timber from Scandin- eggs graded according to existing Irish or avia. The thing we have got to bear in U.K. standards may be imported into the mind is this. These duties which we are Island even though they do not agree with imposing today, if we carry this resolution, the general Community standards? There is deal with direct imports. Our wheat in an article 78 in the Treaty of Accession fact comes through somewhere in the U.K. which says "with regard to egg marketing standards, Ireland or the U.K. may retain on their markets". Mr. Bolton: It is direct. It comes into Liverpool but it is brought from Canada. Deemster Moore: This is the transitional arrangement.

Deemster Moore: Well, if it goes into Liverpool, it will pay the duty there, that Mr. Irving: This is in the Treaty of is what I am trying to say. This particular Accession. They may retain on their markets, order will in practice only affect direct goods but then we are one member with the U.K., from outside the Communities, the bulk the system of grading in four and five coming from outside the Community into weight categories respectively on condition the Isle of Man direct without stopping. that the marketing of eggs v.thich comply Anywhere else the duty will be caught and with Community standards shall not be payable where it touches in the U.K. subject to restrictions because of different systems of grading. I mention this, sir, bcausc tthe learned Deemster has said pro- vided they agree with Community standards Mr. MacLeod: Surely, Your Excellency, of trading. I would have thought that pro- the duty will be levied on the British Govern- viding they agreed with the four and five ment and the British Government will not category systems of grading in Ireland and allow this to come in here without levying in the U.K. we may also have to admit the Isle of Man with it. them freely.

The Attorney-General: Your Excellency, Mr. MacLeod: I would just like to ask most goods are imported into the Isle of the learned Deemster with regard to wool. Man from the U.K. only a very few come How are we going to pay for wool say of the directly to the Isle of Man, it is those few merino type imported from Australia, or goods which will be caught by this order. the various other types of wool we import Most of them have already borne the levy from all over the world. Is that stuff going in England.

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Mr. 1VlacLeod: The levy will be levied There is only really one point I would like to on to the Isle of Man. make here, and that it has been said that it is cheaper to die .in Rushen than it is to live in other parts of the Island because, sur- prisingly enough, the Rushen Burial Ground Mr. Kerruish: Your Excellency, in view Rate is to be reduced from one penny to of the fact that we have heard much of one halfpenny. The story was that they did the saying that free trade means free trade, apply for an increase of up to one new can the hon. Deemster or the Attorney penny because they wanted to bring forward General confirm that the Island's very high a suggestion of having a garden of remem- standard of animal health has enabled us brance and having completed a garden of to obtain a very important derogation which remembrance they found out that they had will provide considerable importance to the some surplus money and they therefore Island as regards not only live animals, but asked to have the rate reduced. I. beg to dead meat? move that it be reduced from one penny to one halfpenny.

The Governor: This question is quite Mr. Crellin: Your Excellency, I beg to irrelevant and should be the subect of a second. question at the next meeting. Is that agreed?

The Governor: Is that agreed? It was agreed. It was agreed.

RUSHEN PARISH BURIAL GROUND RATE ORDER — APPROVED. GERMAN REFUSE COLLECTION DISTRICT (EXTENSION No. I) ORDER — APPROVED The Governor: Item 16. The Chairman of the Local Government Board. The Governor: Item 17. The Chairman of the Local Government Board. Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I beg - to move:— Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellenucy, I beg to move:— That the Rushen Parish Burial Ground Rate Order 1973 made by the Isle of Man Local Government Board on 19th January 1973 That the German Refuse Collection District under Section 5(2) of the Burials Act 1949, as (Extension No. 1) Order 1973 made by the Isle amended by Section 1 of the Burials Act 1962, of Man Local Government Board on the 19th be and the same is hereby approved. January 1973 under the provisions of Section

Rushen Parish Burial Ground Rate Order Approved. — German Refuse Collection District (Extension No. I) Order — Approved. .T474 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

62 of the Local Government Consolidation Act getting service. The only other districts con- 1916 as amended by Section 8 of the Local cerned are rural areas and nobody is asking Government (No. 3) Act 1938, be and the same for them to be collected more than once in is hereby approved. three weeks.

This is a request on behalf of the German Parish Commissioners to extend their Refuse Collection District. AS you will remember The Governor: Is that agreed? we started off encouraging all the Parish Comissioners to have a form of refuse col- It was agreed. lection when we had the new pulverisation plant installed. It started off on a small scale, now they are quite prepared to extend it to larger areas and this, Your Excellency, covers the other areas as has been suggested LONAN REFUSE DISPOSAL by- the Commissioners, and 1 beg to move. DISTRICT (EXTENSION No. 2) ORDER — APPROVED

Mr. Spittal]: I beg to second. The Governor: Item 18. Chairman of the Local Government Board.

Mr. MacLeod: With regard to this refuse. Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I beg collection, I have a lot of complaints from to move:— the constituents of Glenfaba. Some are col- lected once every three weeks and people That the Lonan Refuse Disposal District are complaining bitterly, especially people (Extension No. 2) Order 1973 made by the Isle with cafes and things like that where the of Man Local Government Board on the 19th January 1973 under the provisions of Section stuff becomes foul and stinking before it is 62 of the Local Government Consolidation Act moved. Those people are wanting to know 1916 as amended by Section -8 of the Local if it is at all possible that the Local Govern- Government (No. 3) Act 1938, be and the same ment Board could get some sort of a thing' is hereby approved. going so that it would be at least once a fortnight if not once a week. This is a similar instance where the same thing occurs with the Parish of Lonan. They wish to extend their areas. Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, If I could comment on that. Without any disre- spect to the hOn. member, he has made one of Mr. Spittall: Your Excellency, I beg to two comments today which are entirely incor- second. rect. In his own area, he referred to the cafe. We were well aware of the situation of those with reference to the cafe and the hotel in The Governor: Is that agreed? the district. Private arrangements have been made by the proprietors of both to have a regular collection once a week. They have made this private arrangement and are It was agreed.

Lonan Refuse Disposal District (Extension No. 2) Order — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973 T475

LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD - the impounding of water from the upper WATER ORDER No. 8 APPROVED Sulby river at a point above the junction with the Lhergyrhenny stream near .Tholt- The Governor: Item 19. Chairman of the y-Will, and piping the water to the Sulby Local Government Board. filters for distribution to the North of the Island. At present these supplies are depen- dent upon the reservoirs at Block Eary, Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I beg Ballure and the Corony intake. They have to move:— been over the past few years rapid growth of population in this distribution area, which That Tynwald approves– has meant a steady increase in the amount (I) The Provisional Order cited as the Isle of of water used by existing consumers. This Man Water Order Number 8, made by the Isle has been in the region of 5 per cent. per of Man Local Government Board on the 19th annum. It is expected to continue at this rate January 1973 under the provisions of the Water (Supply) Acts 1929 to 1956, for the purpose of over the next five years and then possibly augmenting the water supplies in the North of it will level off. The catchment area, com- the Isle of Man by the abstraction of water prising of some 2,200 acres, is roughly from the Sulby River; and bounded by Slieau Dhoo, Sartfield, (2) That Standing Order 162 be waived only Injebreck, Beinn-y-Phott, Crammag and to the extent that a copy of the plan of the area Druidale. It is considered that the amount has not been submitted to each Member with the copy of the Provisional Order. of water to be extracted would not cause pollution lower down the river because of This is under the Water Supply Acts of 1929. the lack of flow in the river. It was pointed to 1956. This order which is cited as the out that many small streams join the river Isle of Man Water Board, No. 8, was made below the intake including the Lhergyrhenny by the Isle of Man Local Government Board stream. Provision is made in the order for under section 5, sub-section (1) of the Water the payment of compensation to riparian (Supply) Acts 1929, as amended by section 2, interests if injuriously affected although it sub-section (1) of the Water Supply Amend- was reported that there were no mills as ment Act 1934. The Board considered the such using the water for power or income petition of the Isle of Man Water Board producing purposes on the Sulby river at for the making of a provisional order this time. Provision is also made for com- authorising the Water Board to abstract pensation for wayleave easements or damage from the Sulby river to augment water sup- to crops or properties. It was estimated that plies in the north of the Island. A public the area chosen was the best source of inquiry was conducted after the requisite additional water supply in the North of the notice had been given on 9th January 1973 Island and this scheme will ensure adequate when evidence was taken on the proposals. supply in this area for the foreseeable The only reservations to the proposals were future. I would say at the present time that from the Manx Conservation Councils the Water Board did estimate that their planning and anti-pollution groups. Their deficiency in the northern area at the present fears were satisfactorily resolved and pro- time was running at somewhere in the region vision has been made in the Order for the of 15,000 gallons per day. In the southern protection of fish and the perservation of region, for the interest of the members from any spawning grounds for salmon and trout that district, it is estimated that supplies in the upper reaches of the Crammag river sufficienty until about 1980. The total in the catchment area. The scheme includes estimated cost of the new scheme for the

Local Government Board — Water Order No. 8 Approved. T476 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

Northern districts is approximately £43,000. nor on 4th January 1973 under Section 12 of the Isle of Man Civil Service Act 1962 be and the same is hereby approved. Mr. Simcocks: I beg to second, Your Excellency. This is a scheme which enables In simpler terms substantial changes in the the Isle of Man Water Board, very nearly pension arrangements for the U.K. Civil at the end of its life, to take steps to acquire Servants were introduced in June 1972 by rights which it can pass on to the new Water way of the Principal Civil Service Pension Authority so that the Authority will be in a Scheme 1972. Manx Civil Servants have position to deal with this ever increasing always been superannuable by analogy with problem of increased water consumption. U.K. Civil Servants and to maintain parity it is necesary for the Governor to make and for Tynwald to approve amendments The Governor: Is that agreed? to the present arrangements under the Civil Service Acts of 1962 and the (Officers of Boards) Superannuation Schemes. The Elec- It was agreed. tricity Board staff enjoy in effect Civil Service superannuation,. the only difference being that contributions are payable by both employee and employer. The necessary amendments can be made through the Superannuation Order 1973 for Civil Ser- vants not covered by the Superannuation CIVIL SERVICE SUPERANNUATION- (Officers of Boards) Scheme 1959, and by a SCHEME AND ORDER APPROVED. resolution amending the said scheme arid the Electricity Board scheme for all those covered by them. It would of course be The Governor: Item 20. The Chairman of neater to cover all Civil Servants by the the Civil Service Commission. 1973 Order and to revoke the 1959 scheme. However, this scheme contains certain pro- Mr. Hislop: Your Excellency. I beg to visions with regard to contributions payable move:— by the Water Board and Manx Electric Railway Board and provides a link to the (1) That in accordance with Rule 14 (1) of old 1951 scheme which still operates for a the Superannuation {Officers of Boards) few Electricity Board and Board of Edu- Scheme 1959 and Rule 15 (1) of the Super- annuation (Officers of Boards) (Isle of Man cation staff. It is, therefore, more convenient Electricity Board) Scheme 1960, Tynwald ap- at the moment to amend rather than to proves that the Superannuation Acts of Parlia- revoke it and make provisions in another ment set out in the Second Schedule of those form. Schemes shall with effect from the 16th day of June Nineteen Hundred and Seventy-two be deleted therefrom and the following substituted Mr. Crellin: I beg to second and reserve therefor– my remarks.

The Superannuation Act 1965 The Superannuation Act 1972 (in relation The Governor: Is that agreed? to the Principal Civil Service Pension Scheme 1972 as amended from time to time). It was agreed.

Civil Service Superannuation Scheme and Order Approved. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973 T477

ROAD RACES ACT 1951 —YEARLY Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I beg ORDER— APPROVED. to move:— In accordance with Section 3 of the Road The Governor: Item 21. The Chairman Traffic (Public Service Vehicles) Act 1964, to elect a member of the Road Traffic Com- of the Highway Board. missioners for the remainder of the term expiring on the 14th June 1974 in the place of Mr. Kerruish: Your Excellency, I beg Mr. W. C. .Gale, deceased. move:— to (The Selection Committee have recommended That the powers conferred upon the Isle of Mr. John William Rade100. Man Highway and Transport Board under the provisions of the Road Races Act 1951 to Mr. Spittall: I beg to second. declare by Order that any roads may be used for races, shall be exercisable by the Board for a Mr. Ranson: Your Excellency, could I period of one year from this date. ask the Chairman of the Road Traffic The Governor: Is that agreed? Commissioners or the Highway Board, could he give me any information as to whether Sir Henry Sugden: 1 beg to second. John William Radcliffe, who ever he may It was agreed. be, has any previous experience or know- ledge of road traffic in any shape or form to the best of his knowledge?

WAR PENSIONS COMMITTEE — MR. Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, first of W. C. COLLISTER ELECTED. all I would like to express our thanks, it will have to be extended to the widow for The Governor: Item 22. the services rendered by the late Inspector Gale on this committee. We did consider Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I beg various people for this appointment and Mr. to move:— I. W. Radcliffe has been manager of the To appoint one member to represent the Ramsey Coal Company, a man involved in Independent Order of Rechabites for the quite a lot of public transport and quite a remainder of the term ending on the 27th lot of local knowledge and we felt that a January 1974 in the place of Mr. R. E. Sayle, Northside representative was required on this resigned. Committee. Bearing all the factors in mind The Independent Order of Rechtzbites have we were very satisfied that Mr. Radcliffe recommended the appointment of Mr. W. C. was a very suitable and appropriate man Collister, of "Tengah" Upper Dukes Road. to put on this Committee. I would say that Douglas. he is no relation whatsoever of mine. The Governor: Is that agreed? (Laughter.)

It was agreed. Mr. Ranson: I thank the Chairman.

The Governor: Is that agreed?

MR. J. W. RADCLIFFE APPOINTED AS It was agreed. A ROAD TRAFFIC COMMISSIONER.

The Governor: Item 23. The Governor: Well now I do not think

Road Races Act 1961 — Yearly Order — Approved.— War Pensions Committee --- Me W. C. Collister Elected. —Mr. W. Radcliffe Appointed as a Road Traffic Commissioner. T478 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

it is worth while starting the next item, I do 10.30 a.m. tomorrow. not want to interrupt Mr. Kneale in mid- speech. The Court will now adjourn until The Court adjourned.

CORRIGENDUM

Tynwald Court, December 13, 1972 Page T233, column 1, line 13 for "2" subsitute

Corrigendum.