Thursday Volume 563 9 May 2013 No. 2

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Thursday 9 May 2013

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2013 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 127 9 MAY 2013 Business of the House 128

detail on the same Bills. Will he confirm that he will House of Commons arrange for a copy of that briefing to be placed in the House of Commons Library immediately and that in Thursday 9 May 2013 future he will ensure that Members of this House are accorded the same courtesies as are accorded to the The House met at half-past Nine o’clock press? I welcome to the House the new Labour Member, my PRAYERS hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (Emma Lewell-Buck), the first woman to represent Shields in Parliament. She will be a fighter for her constituents. I [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] also welcome back into the Conservative fold the hon. Member for Mid Bedfordshire (Nadine Dorries). I wonder BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS whether the Leader of the House is taking bets on how long it will take the Chief Whip to wish she was back in COMMITTEE OF SELECTION the jungle. Ordered, I suspect that last week’s local elections had a more That Heidi Alexander, Tom Blenkinsop, Mr Alan Campbell, profound impact on the Queen’s Speech than the Leader Geoffrey Clifton-Brown, Mr David Evennett, Mark Hunter, Anne of the House can let on. They were a disaster across the Milton, Mr John Randall and Mark Tami be members of the Committee of Selection until the end of the current Session.— English shires for the Conservatives, as Labour won in (Mr Randall.) many southern marginals and hordes of true blue voters flocked to the UK Independence party. I followed with Business of the House interest the Conservative implosion in the Leader of the House’s own backyard of Cambridgeshire, where the 9.34 am Conservatives lost control of the council for the first time in more than 15 years. The Conservative leader of Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab): Will the Leader of the council even managed to lose his seat—and to a the House give us the business for next week? Liberal Democrat. I hope that the Leader of the House The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Andrew has congratulated his deputy, the right hon. Member Lansley): The business for next week is as follows: for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake), on that success for the Liberal Democrats on his home turf. It is MONDAY 13 MAY—Continuation of the debate on the hard to imagine, but the Leader of the House did better Queen’s Speech on health and social care. in the elections than the Prime Minister, who managed TUESDAY 14 MAY—Continuation of the debate on the to lose Witney to Labour and see the Conservative Queen’s Speech on the cost of living. candidate beaten into third place by UKIP. WEDNESDAY 15 MAY—Conclusion of the debate on The signs are that the panic is setting in. Lord Lawson the Queen’s Speech on economic growth. is calling for an exit from Europe—[HON.MEMBERS: THURSDAY 16 MAY—General debate on mental health. “Hear, hear.”] He has some support on the Government The subject for this debate has been nominated by the Back Benches, I hear. Lord Tebbit is reported as saying Backbench Business Committee. that UKIP’s policies are now closer to the traditional The provisional business for the week commencing Conservative agenda, and the hon. Member for North 20 May will include: East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) is calling for a big, MONDAY 20 MAY—Remaining stages of the Marriage open and comprehensive coalition with Farage. This is (Same Sex Couples) Bill (Day 1). a failing Conservative party that cannot even hold on to the Tory shires and whose Members are starting to TUESDAY 21 MAY—Conclusion of remaining stages of the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill (Day 2), followed behave like headless chickens. They are so bad at listening by motion to approve a European document relating to to their own members that this week one of them Syria. resorted to taking out a full page advertisement in The Times to tell them how out of touch they are. The irony I should also like to inform the House that the is that he probably paid for it with his millionaire’s tax business in Westminster Hall for 16 May will be: cut. THURSDAY 16 MAY—Debate on the seventh report of the Education Select Committee on careers guidance Many of us were shocked by the omission from the for young people, followed by debate on the seventh Gracious Speech of the promised legislation to ensure report of the Science and Technology Committee on plain packaging for cigarettes. The public health Minister, educating tomorrow’s engineers. the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry), publicly supported the proposal, and when the Leader of the Ms Eagle: I thank the Leader of the House for his House was Secretary of State for Health he said: statement. The next time the Government cannot find “The evidence is clear that packaging helps to recruit smokers, their Education Minister and have to bring business so it makes sense to consider having less attractive packaging. It’s questions forward, I wonder whether they might like to wrong that children are being attracted to smoke by glitzy designs give us a little more notice—I am still catching my on packets.” breath. I also thank him for advance sight of the written Does he stand by that view? Why have the measures on ministerial statement he tabled today confirming the minimum alcohol pricing been dropped, too? After this Bills announced yesterday. I am sure that you, Mr Speaker, week’s revelations that the Prime Minister’s election guru, will be as concerned as I am that while he provided Lynton Crosby, has business links to big tobacco and Members with one page of information, the Downing the drinks industry, can the Leader of the House assure street spin machine provided the press with 93 pages of us that no inside lobbying has taken place at No. 10? Or 129 Business of the House9 MAY 2013 Business of the House 130

[Ms Angela Eagle] imagine that there was ever a question of including reference to standardised packaging in the Queen’s Speech; is that why the Government’s proposal to introduce a there never was, and it would not have been appropriate statutory register of lobbyists has also mysteriously to do so. disappeared? As I said, I have looked at the hon. Lady’s alternative Yesterday’s Queen’s Speech showed that the Government Queen’s Speech. In contrast with ours, there seem to be may have legislated for fixed five-year Parliaments but just six Bills, one of which is a finance Bill. It refers to a that they have run out of ideas after just three. Instead consumer’s Bill. There is a draft consumer rights Bill in of new ideas to get our economy growing again, all we our proposals. She has a proposal for a jobs Bill. I do get is a thin, cobbled-together legislative programme not know quite what that means, because I have never that is completely lacking in ambition. Our last Session yet found out how Labour Members can propose policies saw parliamentary time unfilled, badly drafted, badly that would destroy jobs while guaranteeing people jobs. managed Bills, and a U-turn, on average, once every Where are these jobs supposed to come from? Jobs seven sitting days. Yesterday’s Queen’s Speech will give come from wealth-creating businesses, and that is what no one confidence that in the coming year we will not this coalition Government have been able to achieve in see more of the same. the past year, with some 500,000 additional jobs. Since This was the Government’s third Queen’s Speech, the election, 1.2 million extra jobs have been created in and all we have had is three years of failure, with low the private sector. That is what makes the real difference. growth, falling living standards, and rising borrowing. The hon. Lady’s shadow Queen’s Speech refers to a The Government had nothing to say on tackling the banking Bill. A banking reform Bill is being carried crisis in youth unemployment. They had nothing to over from the previous Session. She talks about a housing back small businesses, nothing to boost housing, nothing Bill, but as far as I can see her proposals would not get on rail fares and nothing on growth. This is a tired any houses built; we will do that through the Help to Government, out of ideas and out of touch. Even Sir Buy scheme and other schemes. Alex Ferguson could not turn this lot into a winning team. The Labour party’s shadow Queen’s Speech also refers to an immigration Bill. Such a Bill is the centrepiece of Mr Lansley: I am grateful to the shadow Leader of our legislative programme, but the Labour party’s version the House for her response. I am glad that she has would not impact on net migration numbers at all. It sufficient puff, even though the shadow Queen’s Speech might be reasonable to make sure that migrant workers she published during the recess seemed to have less are not abused, but that is not the issue; the issue is to steam in it than a decent kettle. ensure that we encourage those people who can contribute to this economy, while also ensuring that we are not I join the hon. Lady in welcoming the hon. Member subject to abuse by those who enter and do not make for South Shields (Emma Lewell-Buck). Although this such a contribution. That is what our immigration Bill is a matter for the Chief Whip, I also welcome back my will do. hon. Friend the Member for Mid Bedfordshire (Nadine Dorries). In this case, however, it is probably more On informing the House on the content of Bills, I appropriate to say, “Welcome back to the jungle.” remind the hon. Lady that today’s fresh new Order The shadow Leader of the House should not trespass Paper notes that, in addition to the carry-over Bills on to trying to interpret last Thursday’s local election from the previous Session, the Pensions Bill, the Anti-Social results, especially those in South Cambridgeshire. I Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill, the Gambling (Licensing know about mid-terms; I ran the Conservative party’s and Advertising) Bill and the Northern Ireland European and parliamentary election campaign in 1999, (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill will be presented in this two years before the 2001 general election, when we House today, while the Care Bill, the Offender Rehabilitation trounced everybody in sight. Labour Members might Bill, the Mesothelioma Bill, the Local Audit and like to remember that simple fact. They might also like Accountability Bill and the Intellectual Property Bill to remember the simple fact that their party, with their will be presented in another place. The House therefore leader, secured less impressive local election results last has a full programme, commencing today. Thursday than Michael Foot or Neil Kinnock did in mid-term. On the day before the local elections there Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): The were six Conservative county councillors in South Leader of the House will be aware that the Government’s Cambridgeshire; after the elections there were nine, provisions to enable assets of community value to be partly because a sitting UKIP councillor in one division listed have already proved useful in saving valued community lost his seat to a Conservative. I would like the hon. services such as village shops and public houses from Lady to get her facts right before she ventures into my closure. He may, however, share my concern that some constituency. of the major public house operators—known as pubcos— The hon. Lady asked about standardised packaging. are seeking to circumvent the proposals by selling pubs I initiated the consultation on standardised packaging, through private contracts with commercial developers and I did so, as I said at the time, with an open mind. As without the sale ever being advertised and, therefore, my right hon. Friends have made clear, no decision has without the community having any notice of what is been made in response to the consultation on that. I happening until the pub closes overnight and an application think that the hon. Lady will recall that the nature of to demolish the premises, often on specious grounds of the Queen’s Speech is to put forward proposals for security costs, is made the next day. This has happened legislation where the Government have decided what in my constituency, where Enterprise Inns surreptitiously their policy is, not to venture into legislation where no sold the Porcupine public house to Lidl. Will the Leader policy decision has taken place. It is completely false to of the House make time for a debate on this subject? 131 Business of the House9 MAY 2013 Business of the House 132

Mr Speaker: Order. If, when the hon. Gentleman was debate was made by the Opposition. They could have practising at the Bar, he was paid by the word, I think chosen to debate the Government’s welfare reforms, but he now owes us all a drink. they did not. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions will respond to the debate Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend is, of course, an asset of tomorrow. If the hon. Lady wishes to raise the matter considerable value in this House and he played a significant then, we will be glad to take part in the debate and to part, through the Localism Act 2011, in securing the ask why the Labour party, after 13 years of talking much-valued measures. I agree with him. Parishes in my about welfare reform that it never delivered, has turned own constituency have seen the value of the assets of itself into a party that is opposed to the reform of community value provisions, which should not be welfare. circumvented. I will, of course, ensure that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Communities and Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): Will the Leader of the Local Government hears what my hon. Friend has said, House arrange a debate or statement on business rates? and he might be able to take action. As he will know, retailers and small retailers in particular have faced incredibly tough trading conditions since Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab): May we have a 2008, and yet business rates have risen enormously. debate on the urgent issue of the right to buy and the Businesses across my constituency and particularly those Government’s broken promise that there would be one- in places such as Saltaire are struggling as a result of the for-one, like-for-like replacements? According to the increase in business rates. Given that such businesses Department for Communities and Local Government are the backbone of our local communities and local website, for every nine houses sold only one is replaced. economies, the Government should surely do more to This amounts to a broken promise to those people who alleviate the cost of business rates. desperately need affordable housing but who are not getting it. Mr Lansley: I will, of course, talk to my right hon. and hon. Friends at the Department for Communities Mr Lansley: The hon. Gentleman should first and Local Government about that matter. My hon. acknowledge that under Labour the number of new Friend will note that there is an opportunity in the social houses being built dropped to its lowest ever Queen’s Speech debate to discuss such issues. If memory level. There is a time lag: the right to buy is of significant serves, the debate on Tuesday is about the cost of living. value to tenants at the point when they become Somebody will tell me if I am wrong about that. My homeowners, but it also derives a benefit to the housing right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Communities revenue account, which will enable additional properties and Local Government will respond to the debate. I to be built in due course. understand my hon. Friend’s point, but due to the growth incentive, which is part of the drive towards the Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con): I am sure that devolution of responsibilities, local authorities now have the House agrees that we must protect our national greater flexibility to offer business rate discounts in assets, one of which is fishing quota. Currently, small particular circumstances. fishermen are trying to wrestle back—on behalf of the Government in many ways and on behalf of citizens—the Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): May I fishing quota that has been “appropriated” by other draw the House’s attention to early-day motion 36, quarters and interests. May we have a debate on this which stands in my name and the names of other issue as soon as possible? Members? Mr Lansley: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for [That this House deplores the Government’s intention raising what is an important issue, not least in her own to award legal aid franchises to a limited number of constituency. I will, of course, talk to my hon. Friends contractors, effectively abolishing a client’s right to choose at the Department for Environment, Food and Rural their legal representation; notes that this will reduce the Affairs and ensure that they take note of what she says. quality of legal representation to the lowest standard There may be an opportunity for her to raise the issue possible; further notes the fact that firms currently compete and for them to respond at the forthcoming DEFRA on quality of service and will henceforth be required to Question Time. compete on the basis of price; regrets the damning effect which this further reform of legal aid is likely to have on Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ high street solicitors firms who are likely to either close or Co-op): We are a month into the implementation of the abandon legal aid cases; further notes that this will have a bedroom tax and the benefit cap is about to be rolled very detrimental effect on the provision of services through out across London. Does the Leader of the House not the medium of the Welsh language; further notes that this think that it would be good to have a debate between will create vast advice deserts in many rural areas; further Members and Ministers from the Departments for regrets the departure from the principle of equality of Communities and Local Government and for Work and arms before the law and the rights of all citizens to access Pensions, because there is clearly a gap? Constituents of to justice; and calls on the Government to abandon this mine are being issued with letters from housing associations ill-thought through reform immediately.] threatening them with eviction as a result of these The proposals for competitive price tendering of legal measures. aid services are potentially devastating for rural areas and will undoubtedly create advice deserts, threaten the Mr Lansley: I remind the House and Opposition independence of the Bar and undermine Welsh language Members in particular that, as Mr Speaker outlined provision. To cap it all, the Government, when they yesterday, the selection of subjects for the Queen’s Speech conclude their discussions, will try to push the proposals 133 Business of the House9 MAY 2013 Business of the House 134

[Mr Elfyn Llwyd] Mr Lansley: I was trying to examine to what extent legislation was brought forward when the right hon. through in secondary legislation. We should have a Gentleman was a member of the previous Government, debate on the Floor of the House. This is a potentially although there is nothing intrinsically good about the devastating move and it should be reconsidered. It is an number of Bills being brought forward. Fifteen Bills example of dogma taking precedence over common were mentioned in the Gracious Speech yesterday, the sense. same number as in 2012. That is, of course, fewer Bills than in 2010, which was a two-year Session, but more Mr Lansley: I have, of course, looked at the early-day than in 2008 or 2007 and the latter part of the Government motion. The right hon. Gentleman will recall the debates of which he was a member. on the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders I would say that the Bills being presented are Act 2012. Parliament decided what the regime for statutory incomparably more substantial, bold and radical. The instruments should be under that legislation. Although right hon. Gentleman should look at what is being I will convey to my hon. Friends the points that he presented today on the rehabilitation of offenders—my makes, he should recognise that we had a very generous right hon. Friend the Lord Chancellor and Secretary of legal aid system, the cost of which far exceeded that in State for Justice will say more about that in a statement pretty much every other jurisdiction. To that extent, the later; at the pensions Bill and what it will mean for coalition Government had to take some difficult decisions. removing the absurd and perverse anomaly whereby people were incentivised not to save, and not given Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): My constituents reassurance that the state pension would stand behind in Kettering want ours to be a national health service, them so that their savings could add to that without not an international health service. They are very keen detracting from it; and at the care Bill. I feel proud that on the Government’s proposals to stop foreign national we are addressing the reform of social care—something health tourists abusing our free health care without that signally failed under the previous Labour Government contributing to our health system. In which Bill will —and providing important protections for the carers of those proposals be contained? Will the Leader of the those in need. It is a bold and ambitious Bill from a House make time available for that Bill at the earliest coalition Government who, notwithstanding the difficult opportunity? If it is a big Bill with lots of provisions, decisions we have had to make, have themselves been will he give thought to creating a stand-alone Bill so bold, ambitious and radical. that these measures can be fast-tracked through Parliament? Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con): I am sure the Mr Lansley: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I think Leader of the House will join me in congratulating that many people across the country would agree with Portsmouth News and the Solent local enterprise him. partnership, which have worked together to introduce a Notwithstanding what I read in the newspapers this successful “bridging the gap”scheme and used a £2.1 million morning, in my experience it is often general practitioners regional growth fund bid to help generate local growth who say that the situation is absurd. I recall a GP and boost local business. May we have a debate in the speaking to me—forgive me, Mr Speaker, if I tell a little House to celebrate such successful, innovative business story—about the American and Japanese students who growth schemes, and share other innovative ideas for registered at her practice. After a while, they would go promoting local growth? to see her when they were leaving and say, “Shall I talk to the receptionist about payment?” She had to say, Mr Lansley: I do indeed join my hon. Friend in “There is no payment.” They looked at her as if we were welcoming the “bridging the gap” scheme and those mad because at home they would have paid and they who have supported it in her constituency and around had insurance and were willing to pay. However, because Portsmouth and the Solent. It shows how, by working of the structure of the legislation, the national health closely with local authorities and businesses, local enterprise service said, “You are ordinarily resident here so it is partnerships are able to deliver schemes that make sense free. End of story.”That is absurd. The students did not locally, not least because they are rooted in their local expect it and we should not have got into that position. communities and not part of a bureaucracy, which We need to deal with that. The issue is not always abuse. regional development agencies used to be. My hon. This is a system that should be tightened up. Friend draws on a good example of that. I anticipate that the measures to which my hon. Friend refers will be part of an immigration Bill later in Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): the Session. There was nothing in the Budget or the Queen’s Speech about flood insurance. We are in the final weeks of the John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab): It is statement of principles and my constituents are worried humiliating for the Leader of the House to have to about getting flood insurance come July. May we have a defend such a light legislative programme and a coalition statement from the Secretary of State for Environment, Government who have all but run out of road on which Food and Rural Affairs on exactly what is happening they can agree to travel together. He will know that for and why getting a coherent policy from July for my more than a year I have highlighted a problem for the constituents is such a shambles? Nursing and Midwifery Council, which does not have the same powers as other professional regulators to Mr Lansley: The hon. Lady will know—I have said review and revise its disciplinary decisions. Given that this in the House, as has my right hon. Friend the there is so little legislation before the House this year, Secretary of State—that we are in negotiations with the will he help find time for a small but important legal Association of British Insurers. She will have noted in change to deal with that problem? the Queen’s Speech the intention to introduce legislation 135 Business of the House9 MAY 2013 Business of the House 136 relating to the water industry. The Government are will take him 96p over the threshold for carer’s allowance, clear that we will take the necessary legislative provisions which will make him £60 a week worse off. Will the in this Session not only to support reform of the water Leader of the House make time for a statement so we industry, but to give it greater resilience, promote can ensure that we maintain the vital principle that competition and provide the framework for flood insurance people will always be better off in work? in the future. Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend makes a good point on Mr Brooks Newmark (Braintree) (Con): The Government behalf of his constituent. He will be aware that the are to be congratulated on a number of the large Government’s increase of the minimum wage will tip infrastructure projects that they are proposing, but a some carers over the earnings limit for carer’s allowance. number of choke points on the road transport network, Therefore, the Government are in the process of considering including one on the A120 between Braintree and Marks whether an increase in the earnings threshold is warranted Tey, stop the flow of traffic. The choke points cost time and affordable. However, it should be kept in mind—my and, as we know, time is money. There are a number of hon. Friend will know this and be advising his constituent choke points throughout the country. If we want to of it—that the earnings limit for carer’s allowance is net improve the flow of traffic, it would be worth the of tax, national insurance contributions and certain Government’s time to listen to Members of the House other allowable expenses, which means that carers can on where those choke points are. Perhaps the Transport earn significantly more than £100 a week and still get Minister can come to the House to make a statement on the carer’s allowance. how he will address them. Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): May we have a statement Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend reminds me that debates on the impact of cuts to youth services such as those in the House are a good opportunity for Members to being carried out by Conservative-controlled North make those points, not least through Adjournment Lincolnshire council in the Scunthorpe area on young debates. I recall that my first Adjournment debate in the people and their prospects? House in 1997 related to the rebuilding of the A14, which, as he and I know because it is in our region, is as Mr Lansley: I cannot offer the hon. Gentleman a yet unfinished. I hope the coalition Government will statement on that, which is a matter of his local authority finally make that happen, but I know perfectly well the making decisions. However, he will find that I have road connection to which he refers. I have no doubt that announced a debate in Westminster Hall on Thursday the Minister of State, Department for Transport, my 16 May on the Education Committee report on careers right hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr guidance for young people, which is relevant to his Burns), understands the problem very well, even if point. He might wish to contribute to that debate. decisions on it might be led more locally through the local enterprise partnership. Mr Shailesh Vara (North West Cambridgeshire) (Con): In the Leader of the House’s opening comments, he Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): Last month, Scottish mentioned a forthcoming debate on mental health. He Coal went into liquidation; this week, it looks very will be aware that one of the biggest mental health much as if UK Coal will be wound up by Her Majesty’s issues is the associated social stigma. Will he ensure Revenue and Customs. That could close Kellingley and that, when the Minister replies to the debate, he specifically Thornley collieries, and six other open-cast mines, at addresses social stigma, so that hon. Members can the cost of 2,000-plus jobs. May we have an urgent ensure that many more people who suffer from mental debate on the future of the British coal mining industry health come forward for treatment rather than shy to ensure that the Government’s promises to protect the away? people at Daw Mill colliery are kept and that the future of the remaining collieries in the UK is secure? Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend will, of course, recall the important debate on mental health some 18 months Mr Lansley: The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that ago. I hope that next Thursday’s debate will follow up I am not in a position to speculate on the position of on that and embrace other mental health issues. He is limited companies, but he will know that the Minister right to say that social stigma has been addressed previously, without Portfolio, my right hon. Friend the Member for and we need to continue to tackle it. He will recall that South Holland and The Deepings (Mr Hayes), the Cambridgeshire was a pilot area in the campaign against previous Minister of State, Department for Energy and social stigma associated with mental health diagnoses. Climate Change, and the current Minister of State, That was very important and I hope the debate will Department of Energy and Climate Change, my right afford the opportunity to which he refers. hon. Friend the Member for Sevenoaks (Michael Fallon), have both given time and energy to working on the Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): Will the issues at Daw Mill colliery and across the UK coal Leader of the House arrange for a debate on the economy industry. The hon. Gentleman and other Members on of Northern Ireland, with particular reference to the both sides of the House who have an interest might peace dividend, which was promised by Downing street consider whether they want to take the matter forward some years ago to underpin devolution arrangements with the Backbench Business Committee in due course— but as yet has not been realised? there would be interest on both sides of the House. Mr Lansley: The hon. Lady may wish to take the John Glen (Salisbury) (Con): My constituent, Douglas opportunity to raise this issue in next Wednesday’s Mann, is a hard-working carer. Like 40,000 other carers, debate on economic growth. My right hon. Friend the he is concerned that the increase in the minimum wage Prime Minister, the Secretary of State for Northern 137 Business of the House9 MAY 2013 Business of the House 138

[Mr Lansley] why more than 10,000 domestic violence, knife crime and serious assault offences last year resulted only in Ireland and others are absolutely committed to supporting community resolutions? Northern Ireland and the Government of Northern Ireland in promoting economic growth and, in particular, Mr Lansley: The hon. Gentleman will be aware that rebalancing the economy further, so that Northern Ireland today’s debate on the Queen’s Speech will focus on can participate in the private sector employment and home affairs, so rather than detain the House in response wealth creation that, happily, has characterised the success to his question, I invite him to participate in that debate. of the coalition Government. I am sure that he would get a very good answer from Home Office Ministers. Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): Earlier this year, I had the privilege of opening a new manufacturing plant Mr Lee Scott (Ilford North) (Con): May we have a facility at Vent-Axia in my constituency. May we have a debate on the wonderful work that hospices, such as St debate on the importance of manufacturing in the UK, Peter’s in my constituency, do across our country? and, as with this case, on bringing jobs back from China and other countries to the British work force? Mr Lansley: I hope that my hon. Friend will be able to raise that issue during the health and social care Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend makes an important debate on Monday. I know that he is a devoted supporter point, which will be appropriate to raise in tomorrow’s of the hospice serving his constituency and even skydived debate on jobs and business and in Wednesday’s debate on its behalf, which was commendable and courageous— on economic growth. I hope that when the Opposition although I think the Whips would encourage him to be make their case they will start by acknowledging their very careful. I think that hospices do a wonderful job. failure in allowing the economy to become increasingly From my many visits to hospices, I am familiar with unbalanced under their tenure, and recognise the loss of what they do. During the course of this Parliament, the so many manufacturing jobs when they were in government coalition Government will be putting in place per-patient and the necessity now of ensuring that we support funding schemes to enable hospices to provide more manufacturing, as the Government are doing. holistic services to patients so that the NHS can support them to a more appropriate degree. Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab): May we have a debate on the Department for Culture, Media Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab): There was and Sport’s city of culture 2017 initiative? I am sure that much hype yesterday over the Government’s immigration the Leader of the House is backing Leicester’s bid. A Bill. Will the Leader of House make it clear when the debate would allow Members on both sides of the Bill will be published and, in advance of that, how the House to express their support for Leicester’s overwhelming check scheme for private landlords will work and be claim. enforced? Mr Lansley: The hon. Lady can of course ask about Mr Lansley: As Leader of the House, it is probably those issues during the debate on the Queen’s Speech, best that I do not back anybody’s claim. I cannot but as I said to my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering promise a debate, but I think the hon. Gentleman raises (Mr Hollobone), the immigration Bill will be published an interesting issue and I hope there will be an opportunity later in the Session. to hear more about it. It would make a good occasion if Members were able to come and present the competing, Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): During positive claims of many cities across the country. yesterday’s excellent Gracious Speech, reference was made to a Bill to make changes to the electoral Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): I wonder whether we arrangements in Wales? Given that changes to electoral could have a debate on the future of our town centres, arrangements in devolved regions are hugely important which would enable us to highlight the fact that there is right across the United Kingdom, will my right hon. some good news, such as the proposal announced today Friend ensure that, despite the full legislative programme of a £20 million extension to Rugby’s Clock Towers this Session, adequate time is provided for all Members shopping centre. That will secure our town centre and to make a contribution to the debate about changes to provide an extra 132,000 square feet, a new department Welsh arrangements? store, food and drink outlets and a nine-screen cinema. Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend rightly refers to the Mr Lansley: I am delighted to hear what my hon. reference in the Queen’s Speech to a draft Wales Bill. I Friend says about the development of Rugby town am grateful for his question, because it gives me the centre. He knows that the coalition Government provide opportunity to make it clear that more than half of the considerable support through high-street initiatives. At 17 Bills referred to in my written ministerial statement the heart of that is supporting wealth creation and this morning are the subject, either in whole or in part, giving local authorities and local enterprise partnerships, of pre-legislative scrutiny. That will ensure, I hope, that through the growth incentive, the opportunity to reinvest the issue that he quite properly raises—about the important in their town centres. debate on electoral and constitutional legislation—will be fully scrutinised this Session before the Bill is introduced. Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab): Community sentences were meant for Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): Further low-level offences, not serious offences. May we have to the point raised by the hon. Member for Kingston a debate and a proper explanation from a Minister on upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) about the statement 139 Business of the House9 MAY 2013 Business of the House 140 of principles for flood insurance, the current set of that they might want to relocate it from the city of principles expires next month, so could we have a Coventry to another town. Could we therefore have a statement from the Department for Environment, Food debate on the community value of football clubs and and Rural Affairs as soon as possible about the principles football governance in this country? that will be renewed? This matters to flood-prone constituencies such as mine. Mr Lansley: Are we talking about the Ricoh stadium?

Mr Lansley: I, along with Members across the House Mr Jones indicated assent. and the Government, share my hon. Friend’s sense of urgency about ensuring that the flood insurance Mr Lansley: I rather admire the Ricoh stadium—I arrangements are in place in the long term. That was went there to see one of the Olympic events that it exactly the point made by the hon. Member for Kingston hosted at the start of the games. It is a fine stadium and upon Hull North (Diana Johnson). I reiterate that we I was impressed by the support that the community in took an important step forward yesterday in setting out Coventry gave to that event. If I may, I will not trespass in the Queen’s Speech our intention to introduce legislation on local decisions about the location of the stadium for on the water industry, which I hope not least will give a the future, other than to say that I know that football spur to the Association of British Insurers, together clubs rightly attract enormous loyalty, which is something with the Government, to finalise the arrangements. that should be taken into account.

Sir Edward Garnier (Harborough) (Con): Will the Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): Could the Leader of the House arrange for either the Justice Leader of the House arrange for a statement by the Secretary or a Ministry of Justice Minister to make a Deputy Prime Minister next week regarding the emblems statement about the arrangements for the re-interment on ballot papers? I understand that the law has been of Richard III? As he will know—the hon. Member for changed, so that two emblems—for instance, Labour Leicester South (Jonathan Ashworth) will know this and Co-operative—can be put on the ballot paper next too—the university of Leicester was given a licence by to a candidate. Perhaps it was also thought that there the MOJ to make arrangements for the re-interment of might be Conservative and Liberal candidates, or was the remains of Richard III by next autumn, but the the Deputy Prime Minister being far-sighted, having Plantagenet Alliance— realised that there would be Conservative and UKIP candidates at the next election? Mr Speaker: Order. I think the hon. and learned Gentleman wants a statement on the matter. We are Mr Lansley: I cannot offer my hon. Friend the immediate deeply obliged to him. prospect of a statement, not least because the issue was resolved and Parliament legislated for it. He is quite Mr Lansley: My hon. and learned Friend makes an right: I recall that the motivation rested more with important point. He, like other Members, will recall the Labour and Co-op candidates than with any of the debate in Westminster Hall on his issue, during which more speculative suggestions that he made in his question. Ministers set out, very fairly, the legal position under However, in response to his request, I fear that I cannot the licence issued by the MOJ. I do not think that there offer a statement. is anything further to add. Harriett Baldwin rose— Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): I and many of my constituents are supporters of Coventry City football Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Lady is rising, but she club—which some people may think an encumbrance, has already asked her question. I am sure that she has although we think it is a wonderful thing. The supporters not forgotten that she asked her question, and we have of the club are dismayed at the suggestion by its owners not forgotten the answer either. 141 9 MAY 2013 Child-care Ratios 142

Child-care Ratios able to afford to go out to work. We also want to encourage more providers to use the higher ratios for three and four-year-olds and to hire high-quality staff. 10.17 am All the international evidence from organisations such Stephen Twigg (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab/Co-op) as the OECD suggests that the higher the quality of the (Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for staff, the better the outcomes for children. The previous Education to make a statement on the Government’s Labour Government have admitted that, during their plans for changes to statutory regulations for child-care period of office, they got this wrong. The number of ratios. childminders halved, child care costs doubled, and Beverley Hughes, the former children’s Minister, admitted that The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education Labour had got it wrong. (Elizabeth Truss): The Government announced in January, in the “More great childcare” document, the intention Stephen Twigg: Well, yesterday we were told that the to give nurseries more flexibility over staff-child ratios Government were pushing ahead with their plans to where they employ suitably qualified staff. We have weaken child-care ratios despite widespread opposition. consulted on what those qualifications should be. The Late last night, however, the ink was not even dry on the consultation closed at the end of March. We are now Gracious Speech when we learned that the Government considering the responses and will make further might in fact be U-turning on their policy. Is not this yet announcements in due course. another example of chaos and incompetence at the heart of Government policy making? The current system of child care is not working for parents. Too many parents in the UK are struggling to When the Minister came to the House in January to juggle their work and child care arrangements. Families announce this policy, we told her that she was threatening in England pay some of the highest costs in the world, the quality of child care, doing nothing to address the with 27% of their income going on child care, compared spiralling costs of child care and dismissing the advice with 11% in countries such as France. We also know of her own experts. Since then, the—[Interruption.] that this Government spend more than £5 billion on child care, which is twice the OECD average, and as Mr Speaker: Order. The shadow Secretary of State is much as countries such as France and more than countries trying to make his points, yet there is a quite separate such as Germany. As well as our new schemes, such as exchange being conducted at the same time. That should tax-free child care, we need to ensure that we get better not be happening, and I say to the hon. Member for value for money for the investment that the Government Devizes (Claire Perry), whom it is always a delight to put in, so we are looking at other countries, such as see in the Chamber, that she arrived late for the urgent France, Ireland, Holland and Germany, which manage question. She cannot therefore participate in it on her to combine high quality and affordability in their child feet, and she certainly should not do so from her seat. care provision. At present, we have the tightest ratios in Europe for Stephen Twigg: Since that announcement in January, children under three. We also have the lowest staff the scale of public opposition to the Minister’s plans salaries. Nursery staff here earn £6.60 an hour on has been overwhelming. The Government’s own adviser average, which is barely above the minimum wage. Annual on childcare, Professor Cathy Nutbrown, has said that earnings are £13,000, which is well below the averages the ratio plans make “no sense at all”. Today, the of £16,000 in France, £20,000 in Denmark and £22,000 Minister has said that all the evidence demonstrates in Sweden. The ratio for two-year-olds in England is that what she is doing is right, but who supports her 4:1, whereas it is 6:1 in Ireland, 6:1 in Germany and 8:1 proposals? Is not this yet another episode of bad policy in France, while in Denmark and Sweden—countries making by the Education Secretary? First we had the that the shadow Secretary of State has explicitly fiasco of shutting down school sport partnerships. Then advocated—there are no national staff ratios at all. we had the disastrous attempt to bring back CSEs and O-levels. Now we have a child care policy that is rejected Our proposals will allow nurseries that hire high-quality by parents, nursery providers and the Government’s staff to exercise professional judgment. This is exactly own experts. Will she think again and rule out this the same concept that we have used in academies, giving damaging policy once and for all? What lessons will she high-quality institutions the autonomy to make decisions and her Secretary of State learn from this latest shambles? for themselves and to exercise professional judgment. Does not this show once again that this Government The ratios are not compulsory. This is about professionals have no plan for hard-working families? in the child care sector being able to exercise their judgment and to deliver an affordable, high-quality Elizabeth Truss: I have already outlined what our plans service to parents. Our evidence suggests that— are; we announced them in our “More great childcare” [Interruption.] Well, the Department for Education proposal. Our plans have the support of Sir Michael economists have looked at this in detail, and our evidence Wilshaw, the chief inspector, who commented on them suggests that nurseries will be able to pay higher staff in a recent speech. He has accepted the principle of salaries and reduce costs to parents. higher-qualified staff having more professional autonomy. Let us remember the legacy of the previous Labour Andreas Schleicher of the OECD also supports our Government. The real cost of child care, which every plans. Of course opinion is divided within the British family in this country faces, has risen by 77% in real academic establishment, as it is on many education terms since 2003, and child care inflation is going up by issues. I would point out to the hon. Member for 6% every year. If we do not do something about this Liverpool, West Derby (Stephen Twigg), however, that by reforming the supply of child care, it will become these policies are alive and well in France, Ireland, prohibitively expensive and many parents will not be Holland and Germany. There is not a single country, 143 Child-care Ratios9 MAY 2013 Child-care Ratios 144 including Scotland, where the ratios as are low as they to my hon. Friend that many parents in other countries are here in England. The hon. Gentleman, furthermore, where more flexibility is given to local providers are has not come up with any response on what he plans to extremely happy with the quality of care they receive—in do about the appallingly low wages in the child care fact, they are happier than parents here. sector or the high levels of staff turnover, and he has not come up with any ideas about how he is going to Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East reduce costs. Is this another spending commitment that Cleveland) (Lab): Obviously, whoever was babysitting he is pledging when his party has already pledged many the Deputy Prime Minister this morning did not do a more spending commitments than it has the money to very good job, as on LBC this morning, he apparently pay for? insisted that the Government’s child care policy will be reversed. Is the Minister sure that this policy will be Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): I am implemented? so pleased that the Minister is looking at ways to bring down the cost of child care for hard-working families. Elizabeth Truss: As I said, we have outlined our In her consultation, did she hear from the childminder policy in “More great childcare”, and we are currently who has four children who stay until 1 o’clock but who, consulting on the level of qualifications required to put because of these very inflexible regulations, has to say those ratios in place. no the parent who wants to drop off an additional child at 12.30? Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): Many parents sending their child to a childminder simply want somewhere Elizabeth Truss: My hon. Friend makes a very good that is safe and where their child will be happy while point. Many childminders—I recently held a round they go out to work. Is it really necessary for childminders table meeting with them—told me that they welcome to be turned into mini schools for very young children, the additional flexibility that they will have under our where those children will be judged on educational rules. They also welcome the increased level of trust attainment rather than on how happy and safe they are? that we are placing in child care professionals. Rather than dictating from Whitehall what they should be Elizabeth Truss: I thank my hon. Friend for his doing, we have a strong inspection regime, we are recruiting question. Our policies are all about giving parents more new Her Majesty’s inspectors into the sector and we are choice over the type of child care they receive. I, like giving more professional responsibility to people on the him, am very supportive of childminders. Their number ground. halved under the previous Government because of the additional rules and regulations that were put in place Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): I have been and how they were managed. struck by the number of people in my constituency raising with me their concerns about these proposals. Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ They are concerned that they are rushed and ill thought Co-op): The Minister was piling them so high and through. Will the Minister apologise for the manner in wanting to teach them so cheap that things were bound which this proposal has been debated in the country, to come crashing down at some point. She cited economists and will she commit to listen properly to people like my in favour of the proposals, and she cited the head of mum who have spent their lives in child care? Ofsted, Sir Michael Wilshaw, as being in favour of better qualifications—but not, I note, in favour of higher Elizabeth Truss: Our policy is all about giving the ratios—but what about parents and child carers themselves? hon. Lady’s mum more say over how she runs her own Can the Minister tell us which parents and child carers child care. It is a very important principle that no supported her proposals? nursery care assistant or childminder is going to be forced to look after more children. What we are doing is Elizabeth Truss: The whole point of our proposals is allowing them to exercise professional responsibility. that they give parents more choice. If parents want their We are also doing something about the exorbitant costs child to attend a nursery that is more structured and that Labour created in our child care system. How on that is teacher-led with larger groups, they should be earth can Labour Members be proud of a record of able to have that choice. The excellent écoles maternelles having the highest child care costs in Europe? and nurseries available in France simply could not run in this country because of the regulations we have at the John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD): May I moment. If parents would rather have a smaller group first refer the House to my interest as the father of a size and a less well-qualified staff member, that is nine-month-old baby who will be going to nursery in entirely up to them—it is about choice. September? I ask the Minister to listen carefully to the representations of those who are concerned about the Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con): Does the Minister ratios, particularly for very young children and believe agree that the current rigid child-to-staff ratio holds that those ratios should be very low. back opportunities for staff and the salaries that they can earn, and that that is why we need a more flexible Elizabeth Truss: Of course, there will be different system? requirements for different children, depending on their age and their level of development. Our policies are Elizabeth Truss: I completely agree with my hon. about increasing the level of professional judgment that Friend. Interestingly, there is a much larger gap between child care workers are able to exercise to cater for the what primary school staff and nursery staff are paid in different ages and the different stages of development this country compared with countries such as Denmark, of the children they are looking after. I would point out Sweden and France, where those working in early-years 145 Child-care Ratios9 MAY 2013 Child-care Ratios 146

[Elizabeth Truss] child care in those countries is not good enough? Are they saying that high-quality providers from those countries are highly respected and allowed much more professional should not be able to operate in this country? As for the judgment; they are treated as professionals. That is not hon. Lady’s point about the nurseries in her constituency, what happened in this country under the previous they are absolutely free to carry on operating as they Government. Salaries are £6.60 an hour, on average. I operate now. This policy is about giving parents the really do not understand how that can be justified. ability to make different choices and the kind of choices that parents have in other countries, where they pay a Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): Last lot less for child care and they receive high-quality care. month, I met childminders and nursery providers in my constituency specifically to ask their views on the Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): Child care is often Government’s proposals, and I must tell the Minister that provided by small businesses, which have to adapt when they were unanimously opposed to them. [Interruption.] staff are away for training or because of sickness. Can I am sorry that the hon. Member for Devizes (Claire the Minister confirm what effect staff absence will have Perry) doubts that, but I met them specifically to discuss on child-adult ratios? the proposals and that was their response. I cannot go back on my undertaking to bring what they told me to Elizabeth Truss: I thank my hon. Friend for his the Minister’s attention, and that is what I am doing. question; he makes the very good point that at the One reason why child-care costs are very high in this moment there is no flexibility for nurseries if staff are country is the cost of premises, yet childminders told absent. Either they must not take a particular child or me that one reason for not being able to take on more they have to find additional staff at a cost, and we know children was that they would not have the space to do that many nurseries are struggling to be sustainable. so. What will the Minister do to increase the supply of The ratios offer flexibility for different situations: for suitable space? example, at the time of day when children might be sleeping, when less supervision is required, or when Elizabeth Truss: I am sure that the hon. Lady is aware parents come to pick up their children. Our proposals that the cost of staff represents 70% of the average cost are about allowing nurseries to exercise professional of a nursery, and that the cost of premises is only judgment and flexibility in how they staff them. a small part of the overheads that account for the remaining 30%. Staff cost is the major driver of the cost Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): Does of child-care places. The ratios hold down staff costs the shambles in this Government’s child-care policy not and staff salaries, which makes it difficult to attract also extend to what they are doing with the tax and people to the profession and means higher costs for benefits system? Is the Minister aware that her colleague, parents. the Economic Secretary, gave me information in a written answer last month that shows that more than half of all Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): There are families will not benefit at all from the tax break or many excellent child-care providers in Kettering, but universal credit plans? there are not enough. Is not one of the problems faced by nurseries and child-care providers that there are Mr Speaker: Order. The disadvantage of that question more than 400 early-years qualifications and child-care is that it does not relate to the terms of the urgent providers find it difficult to assess whether those question, so we will leave it there. qualifications are the best that should be available? Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): Are there not two key issues? First, the question of ratios is linked Elizabeth Truss: My hon. Friend makes a good point. to high-quality staff, which itself has a cost. Secondly, We are introducing an early-years educator qualification, the reforms are enabling, not compulsory, and parents which will be the only criteria for judging whether can continue to choose the right setting for their child. someone should have a qualification at level 3. In order to get that qualification, someone will be required to Elizabeth Truss: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. have an English and maths grade C at GCSE, which will Labour Members have not come up with any answers as ensure that we get higher quality in the profession. We to how they would incentivise nurseries to improve are also introducing early-year teachers, which, again, quality and staff salaries or how they would reduce will involve a single qualification at graduate level. costs in the system that they created which is now one of the most expensive in the world. Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab): The Minister referred to trusting the judgment of the professionals, Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab): I am but the professionals in my constituency who met me to aware that the Minister has long championed the policy discuss the proposals are unanimously against them. of loosening the child-care ratios. Indeed, before she Why will she not listen to them and stop confusing the joined the Front-Bench team she was writing pamphlets need to improve qualifications in early years with the about it. However, if she is so convinced of the merits of ratios? However many qualifications someone has, it the policy, why will she not publish the Penn report, does not give them an extra pair of hands to look after which her Department commissioned, and why has the the number of toddlers the Minister is suggesting. Deputy Prime Minister let it be known in the past 24 hours that he does not support her pet policy? Elizabeth Truss: It is interesting that nobody on the Opposition Benches has addressed the issue that these Elizabeth Truss: We will be publishing research when ratios are operating in Ireland, France and Germany. we publish the results of the Childcare Commission in Are Opposition Members saying that the quality of due course. 147 Child-care Ratios9 MAY 2013 Child-care Ratios 148

Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): Does the Liverpool, West Derby (Stephen Twigg), seems to have Minister agree that there are two kinds of help with overlooked his comments of just two weeks ago, when nursery schools? There are those who advocate socialism— he said: that is, they want there to be expensive nursery places, “I visited Sweden last year and saw for myself how supporting but very few of them—and there are those who make the supply of quality childcare gives parents choice, affordability decisions for themselves. They can stand on their own and good quality places”, feet and make their own decisions about what they want yet the Swedes have no mandatory child-staff ratios at for their children. all? Does that not demonstrate that the only shambles is in the thinking of the shadow Secretary of State? Elizabeth Truss: I thank my hon. Friend for his question, and he is absolutely right. What the Opposition Elizabeth Truss: Absolutely; I could not have put it are effectively saying is that a lot of parents should be better myself. Salaries in Sweden for child-care workers priced out of the market and should not have the are £22,000. I would be very interested to understand opportunities of parents in other countries to access how the shadow Secretary of State thinks he is going to high-quality and affordable child care. The previous get that money and where it will come from. Labour Minister, Beverley Hughes, admitted that Labour had got it wrong on child care, so perhaps the Opposition need to think again. Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): With the Deputy Prime Minister rubbishing the proposals, Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): The Minister explicitly is not the policy dead in the water and another example mentioned Sir Michael Wilshaw. Can she say whether of the shambles of this Government? he supports her ratios or not? Elizabeth Truss: As I said, we announced our policy Elizabeth Truss: I can; Sir Michael Wilshaw wrote an in “More great childcare” in January. We are consulting article in Nursery World where he said that he supported on the level of qualifications required to fulfil the ratios. the idea of higher qualifications for—[Interruption.] Let me finish my point. He supported higher qualifications Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): Helping working for higher ratios for three and four-year-olds and he parents and creating small businesses are two very agreed that that should be extended down the age range. important parts of the Government’s programme. Does John Howell (Henley) (Con): Is this not a debate my hon. Friend agree that her proposals will make it about the quality of the staff, rather than the number of more attractive to child-care professionals to set up as the staff? Will affecting the ratios not improve the status childminders, and at the same time improve the access and professionalism of the profession? to child-care provision in many areas across the country where at present it is sadly lacking? Elizabeth Truss: I completely agree. As with so many of their policies, the previous Government focused on Elizabeth Truss: My hon. Friend is right. We are inputs and targets, not outcomes. A third of children taking other steps, including reforming the role of the now entering primary school do not have the requisite local authority so that there is no duplication among communications and language skills, despite the fact local authorities and Ofsted, and improving the clarity that we have 96% uptake in our early-years places. It is of qualifications so that it will be easier for people to set about quality, outcomes and allowing autonomy and up high-quality child-care businesses and be focused on professional judgment. the outcomes for children, in contrast to the very prescriptive regulations which have pushed up costs and held down Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): Has the salaries. Minister had any other advice from the Deputy Prime Minister about child care? Which part of the schools or Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): May I thank social care budget will be cut to fill the huge void in the shadow Secretary of State for asking the urgent resources to deliver the provision that the Minister has question? He has allowed our excellent Minister to promised, while maintaining the adult-child ratios required expound a good Tory policy. It is always good when we by parents and the Deputy Prime Minister? look at the European Union and copy what is good in Elizabeth Truss: As I outlined earlier, we as a Government it. There is one serious point here. If the Deputy Prime are spending more than £5 billion on early-years education Minister wants to comment—if he does not want to run and child care, which is equivalent to countries such as away from something that he has agreed on—he should France and Germany, where parents pay a lot less. The be in the House making that comment, not on a radio reason that it is so expensive is that we have a hugely programme. I suggest that we press on with the policy cumbersome system with many different funding streams. and ignore the Liberal Democrats. I am very pleased that my hon. Friend the Economic Secretary is here today. He announced tax-free child Elizabeth Truss: I thank my hon. Friend for his care, which will be a much simpler scheme than the support for our policy. He is absolutely right. We should voucher scheme under the previous Government. We look to other countries that have done better. Rather than are reforming the system to get better value for money harking back to their failure in office, the Opposition and better quality and affordability for parents. should be seeking inspiration from countries such as Sweden, Denmark and France and looking at what goes Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con): Has my hon. well there. I would like to know whether any Labour Friend noticed that, in his keenness to ask his question, Members have been to see French provision for the under- the shadow Secretary of State, the hon. Member for twos and seen how good it is. I bet they have not. 149 9 MAY 2013 Rehabilitation of Offenders 150

Rehabilitation of Offenders what happens in prisons, and what happens on the outside. Too many offenders are falling through that 10.44 am gap. Therefore, in addition to extending rehabilitation to more offenders, we will create a genuine through-the-gate The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice service. That has been paid lip-service in the past, so (Chris Grayling): With your permission, Mr Speaker, I this time we will do it differently. I have ordered the would like to make a statement about the Government’s wholesale realignment of our prison estate to designate plans for transforming the rehabilitation of offenders. new resettlement prisons, where the same providers who Reoffending rates in this country have been too high will be working with offenders in the community will for too long. Last year, around 600,000 crimes were work with them for three months before release too. committed by people who had broken the law before. Combined with the reforms to the prison regime that Almost half the number of offenders released from our we announced last month to incentivise engagement in prisons offend again within a year. That goes up to a rehabilitation, this is a significant change. We are, for staggering 58% for the group with the most prolific the first time, creating real continuity between custody reoffending rates: those sentenced to prison terms of and community, bridging the gap which right now just less than 12 months. This depressing merry-go-round of leads many offenders back to a life of crime. crime has a dreadful impact on the lives of law-abiding, Our reforms will also open up rehabilitation services hard-working people. to a diverse range of new providers, ensuring that we Reoffending has a devastating impact on the victims bring together the best of the public, voluntary and of crime, but it is also terrible value for the taxpayer. We private sectors, at local as well as at national level. These spend more than £4 billion a year on prisons and providers will have the freedom to innovate and to focus probation, and despite significant increases in spending on turning around the lives of offenders. Our plans will under the previous Government, overall reoffending also use competition to drive greater efficiency, which is rates have barely changed over the last decade and are vital to free up the resources we need so that we can now rising again. The status quo cannot continue; we extend rehabilitation to a wider group of offenders. cannot go on doing the same things, seeing the same A cornerstone of our reforms is payment by results, faces come back through the system time and again, which will focus providers relentlessly on rehabilitating just hoping to get a different outcome. This has got to offenders and actually driving reoffending down. We change. will give those providers the flexibility to do what works Those who break the law need to be punished. In and free them from Whitehall bureaucracy, but the deal yesterday’s Queen’s Speech, we set out how we are will be that they get paid in full only for real reductions going to clamp down on those who persist in the in reoffending and crime. low-level crime that blights our communities, and for serious offenders it is absolutely right that they get a Breaking the cycle of crime will mean fewer victims custodial sentence. I want to ensure that they are punished, in the long term, but we cannot and will not forget our and I want to send the strongest possible signal that primary responsibility for public safety. Therefore, we offenders will not get away with their crimes. However, I are creating a new national probation service, working also want to see them get their lives back on track, and to protect the public and building on the expertise and that requires a thorough and thoughtful approach. Such professionalism that are already in place. Probation offenders have a host of complex problems—a shocking staff make a vital contribution to protecting the public number of them will have been through the care system, from the most dangerous offenders and will continue to and many have come from broken homes and are addicted do so. Under the new system, every offender who poses to drugs and alcohol. At the moment, prisoners serving a high risk of serious harm to the public will be managed sentences of less than 12 months are simply released on by the public sector probation service. We also know to the streets with £46 in their pockets and little else. that risk levels can change, which is why the public sector will have the right to review cases where risk is In the coalition agreement, the Government promised more volatile or where circumstances have changed. to bring about a rehabilitation revolution to tackle the unacceptable cycle of reoffending. Today I am publishing We cannot just carry on with the status quo and hope our ″Transforming Rehabilitation: A Strategy for Reform″ that things improve. These reforms may be challenging, which sets out concrete plans to extend and enhance but they are essential none the less. They are part of a rehabilitation both in custody and in the community. radical programme of reform across the whole justice Probably the biggest failing of the current system is system, making it ready to meet the challenges of the that those with the highest reoffending rates get the future, reforming offenders, delivering value for the least rehabilitation. Our plans put that right. Today we taxpayer and protecting victims and communities. My are introducing legislation so that, for the first time in aim is to deliver year-on-year reductions in reoffending. recent history, every offender released from custody will That would be the right thing to do at any time, but at receive at least a year of supervision and rehabilitation a time of tough financial constraints it becomes even in the community. The Bill will extend statutory more important. We need to ensure that the taxpayers’ rehabilitation to all 50,000 of the most prolific money we spend on rehabilitating offenders actually reoffenders—those sentenced to under 12 months in makes a difference. The plans we are publishing today custody. By guaranteeing this support in law, we ensure will ensure that all those sentenced to prison or community that probation providers are working with those who sentences are properly punished but that they also get are hardest to reach and most likely to reoffend. the support they need to turn their backs on crime for However, it is not enough just to ensure that everyone good. Transforming rehabilitation will mean lower crime, who needs rehabilitation gets it. We heard during the fewer victims and safer communities. I commend this consultation that there is often a disconnect between statement to the House. 151 Rehabilitation of Offenders9 MAY 2013 Rehabilitation of Offenders 152

10.51 am Work programme and security at the Olympics. Now he is to impose his untested and untried payment-by-results Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): I thank methods on probation. Perhaps most seriously, a dangerous the Secretary of State for advance sight of his statement—it chasm will open up between public and private providers is generous of him to share his thoughts with the House on the basis of an offender’s risk level, taking no on this important subject so soon after briefing the account of the fact that in 25% of all cases offenders national media. He is right that one of the best ways to move between risk levels. Therefore, contrary to his cut crime, the number of victims and the cost of our assurance, private firms will be in charge of the most criminal justice system is by tackling reoffending. It is serious criminals, and we genuinely fear that that will disappointing that it has taken the Government three put the public at risk. Failures in delivering probation wasted years to reach that conclusion, but we welcome services even to medium-risk offenders will mean that the intent of today’s announcement. those guilty of domestic violence, burglary, robbery, Reoffending rates are too high. We started to reduce sexual offences and gang activity will walk our streets them when we were in government—especially the rate unsupervised. Regardless of whether private sector providers of youth offending, which breaks the cycle of reoffending deliver, they will still get paid at least 90% of the money. at an early point—but much more needs to be done. Do they have the incentive or the skills to supervise This is an ambitious programme. Unfortunately, it is dangerous and violent people in the community? based on fewer resources, on untried and untested methods Reducing reoffending while maintaining public safety and on putting faith in exactly those private sector should be our twin priorities. A focus on reoffending is organisations that have failed to deliver other major to be welcomed, but the Government’s ill-thought-out public sector contracts. policies and total reliance on payment by results are Let us take the proposal for support for everyone putting at risk the safety of communities up and down leaving prison—an extra 45,000 offenders on the Secretary the country. of State’s figures. Can he explain to the House whether that is an uncosted demand for more resource or whether Chris Grayling: I plead guilty to having done a couple existing moneys will be spread much more thinly to of media interviews this morning, but I am at least in deliver it? Resettlement prisons, as he said, represent a the House right now. My opposite number, the right major restructuring of the prison system. What is the hon. Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan), also gave some cost of that restructuring and what additional resources media interviews this morning but has not made it to will go into preparing offenders for release? He knows the House, which is rather a surprise to me. that the prison estate is still chronically overcrowded We learned an important lesson in opposition, which and understaffed, so does he seriously think that a is that sometimes when one aspires to be a Government reorganisation can take place against such a backdrop? it is necessary to accept that something is the right thing In London there is a major shortage of prison places, to do. That is a lesson that today’s Opposition have not which means that offenders from London often end up learned. I do not understand why they are coming out housed hundreds of miles away from home and family, with this faux anger about what we are doing when the so how is resettlement to work here? legislative foundations that enable us to push through On release, even those who have served the shortest these reforms were passed by the previous Labour sentences are promised a year’s supervision and support Government. If they supported the concept then, why with addiction, housing and employment. Who will pay do they not support it now? for that at a time when drug treatment centres are The hon. Gentleman asked about costs. That highlights closing? Housing is perhaps the most expensive item for an important difference between us and the previous newly released prisoners. On the “Today” programme, Government. They believed that a problem would be the Secretary of State speculated that housing associations solved by throwing money at it, and they ended up with would help out, so during the worst housing shortage an over-bureaucratic, over-complex system which simply for a generation are ex-offenders to get priority for did not deliver. Thanks to the work done by the Select social housing? Committee, we know that probation officers spend only Who will fund the army of mentors, and who will vet about a quarter of their time at work on supervising them to ensure that the right people mentor offenders? offenders, while about 40% of their time is spent on The probation service has been cut by almost 10% so providing support services. Are the Opposition really far and those cuts will continue. The service, which saying that it is not possible to run that system more received an award for excellence two years ago, is by efficiently and deliver support where it is needed to the definition not to blame for rising reoffending by short- offenders who are most likely to reoffend when they sentence prisoners, because they are currently unsupervised. leave prison? Again, there is a divide between us and However, it is not probation officers who will now them. They think it is a question of spending more undertake 70% of the supervision. The Justice Secretary taxpayers’ money and having higher taxes; we want to places a great deal of faith in reformed old lags helping get better value from the taxes that we already raise. out, but he admitted on the “Today” programme that On resettlement prisons, again, it is about making they will have to be paid. Professional probation officers our system work more effectively. At the moment, we sacked and replaced with ex-offenders: is this the Justice move far too many prisoners all over the country in a Secretary’s brave new world? fairly haphazard way. Over the past few months we have In reality, it is the Secretary of State’s old friends worked with prison governors and prison officer teams Serco, G4S and the rest of the cartel who will profit to work out a better way so that short-sentence offenders from today’s announcements. The 21 contracts are too will almost always stay in one place and longer-sentence large for smaller providers. An extra £500 million of offenders will go to a prison close to where they will be public contracts are going to the people who gave us the released to ensure that when they are released we can 153 Rehabilitation of Offenders9 MAY 2013 Rehabilitation of Offenders 154

[Chris Grayling] testing. Will the Secretary of State confirm that it extends to those who go in and out of prison as well as to those deliver continuity of support through the prison gate. under 12-month supervision, and will he be very careful The Opposition should welcome that. It is the right when choosing drug rehabilitation providers? A group thing to do and it should have been done years ago. such as G4S has expertise in tagging—it is obviously The hon. Gentleman asked about the past three good at that—but it does not have expertise in drug years. It is only a few months since the Opposition were rehabilitation. attacking me for not undertaking pilots on this issue. In fact, for the past few years we have been looking at how Chris Grayling: The right hon. Gentleman makes an such a system would work, in Peterborough prison and important point. It is always good to hear him make a in Doncaster prison. The work that has been done there thoughtful and measured contribution, which is not is first-rate. It has also shown how effective older prisoners always true of the rest of his party. We have to be who are turning their lives around can be in supporting absolutely certain that the organisations we recruit to and mentoring younger offenders who have yet to do do the work have the expertise we need, particularly in so. The hon. Gentleman needs to go out and look at the field of drug rehabilitation. I reassure him that I what is happening, not in the world of big businesses, have no intention whatever to contract with organisations which his party’s Government contracted with regularly, that cannot demonstrate that they have genuine expertise but in the voluntary sector with some of our first-rate in delivering the solutions we need. charities, where there are living examples of former offenders who have gone straight and who are now Sir Edward Garnier (Harborough) (Con): I congratulate helping to turn around the lives of the next generation my right hon. Friend on his statement. I wrote about of offenders. I want to capture those skills in helping to these proposals in a November 2007 paper called “Prisons bring down reoffending. with a Purpose”, and the previous Government should have done the very things under discussion a long time The hon. Gentleman questioned payment by results, ago. May I urge my right hon. Friend to ensure that not but why is it such a bad thing in the eyes of the just the big companies, but the smaller providers, such Opposition? They want to pay a whole-contract fee, but as charities and individuals, can carry people from I believe that we should pay part of a fee based on prison out into the community so that there is no gap whether the taxpayer gets a good deal or not. We should between incarceration and coming out into society? pay not unconditionally, but conditionally, and that is Will he also urge the people he deals with to ensure that what we will do under these contracts. I want to pay for people are able to read when they leave prison? The real results that bring down reoffending and crime. average prisoner has the reading age of an 11-year-old Under the previous Government, reoffending barely and it is not possible for them to get a job if they cannot changed. We ended up with a situation in which people read. were going round and round the system. We finally have a set of proposals that will start to change that. It is Chris Grayling: I agree with my hon. and learned shame that this did not happen, not three years ago, but Friend. One of the elements of the new contracts will be 13 years ago, when the Labour party was in power. to combine resettlement services in prisons with post-prison support, so it is a genuinely joined-up service. His point Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): If this about reading is of great importance. One of the reform can be carried through in such difficult financial encouraging things I saw in Peterborough is the way in circumstances, it will be one of the most valuable and which older, more experienced offenders who have gone important things this Government do. Does the Lord through a longer process of rehabilitation in prison are Chancellor agree that the system must be tailored so starting to provide proactive help to the younger generation. that charities and voluntary organisations can viably I want to see those prisoners who can read teaching play their full part, and that the creation of a national those who cannot to do so. probation service must not be allowed to undermine the local co-operation between agencies, which is vital to Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): Can I reducing reoffending? be helpful to the Secretary of State? The cohort who have been reoffending badly are those who have been in Chris Grayling: I can give assurance on both those jail for a short period. Why not extend the duties of points. The national probation service will continue to professional probation officers to deal with them? That have local delivery units operating at a local authority would be one simple answer. level with local agencies, which is essential, and multi-agency As I have asked the Secretary of State before, what supervision will and should continue for the most serious happens when the untrained privateer wants to breach offenders. the offender? Who then makes the decision and on what On charitable groups, I am clear that quality and the evidence will it be based? He has said today that he likelihood of delivering success in reducing reoffending cannot leave matters in abeyance and hope that things will be crucial in the contracting process. This is not will improve, but instead he is just stepping out into the simply a money-saving exercise; it is about easing pressure dark—and hoping that things will improve. on the system by reducing reoffending. That is what it is all about and the bidding process will ensure that quality Chris Grayling: Breach will be a matter for the public rises to the top. probation service. May I take advantage of the fact the right hon. Gentleman is a Welsh Member to pay tribute Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): Breaking the cycle to the leaders of the probation trust in Wales, who have of crime means breaking the dependency on drugs. I been enormously helpful in shaping the proposals? Their welcome the Government’s decision for mandatory drug work on plotting a new path for probation has been 155 Rehabilitation of Offenders9 MAY 2013 Rehabilitation of Offenders 156 very influential. I also say to the people of Wales that extended determinate sentences, which means that people we envisage there being a distinct entity for Wales within will probably spend more time in prison for serious the new national probation service, as there should be. offences than would previously have been the case.

Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con): The John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): With target must be to have fewer crimes committed by fewer such a major reform, it is important that the right hon. people and for criminals to continue committing crimes Gentleman takes the existing staff with him. Will he for a shorter period. clarify what consultations will take place with the trade Will my right hon. Friend see whether figures can be unions in prisons and probation services? On prisons, published every six months on the number of people the redesignation of individual prisons means that there who have committed a serious criminal offence for the may well be a reassessment of the number of staff who first time, the proxy for which will be those who have are needed and of the skills and training that are been convicted? I believe that the figure is about 1,800 a required. On probation, morale is precarious and there week. are concerns about the failure to allocate the supervision of medium-risk prisoners because of the potential risk Will he try to obtain a report every now and again on to the general public. the people who have been released from jail that week who have a home, a worthwhile activity such as a job or Chris Grayling: With a major reform such as this, it is training, and some kind of champion to help them go always important to do everything that we can to take straight? staff with us. The Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Kenilworth and Southam Chris Grayling: I am happy to look at what we can (Jeremy Wright), who is responsible for prisons and provide for my hon. Friend. He is right that we need to probation, will meet the unions today. We have regular have the best possible understanding of what happens contact with staff organisations across the Department to people post-prison. We are putting in place a justice and that will continue. databank so that voluntary organisations that work in I hope that probation staff will look on today’s the area can understand the impact of their work. I will proposals as an opportunity. I have talked about the do my best to provide as much information to the potential for a co-operative approach in some areas, House as possible about the issues that he raises. about greater professionalisation in the probation service and about a highly skilled public probation service. The Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) strategy is not about getting rid of people who work (Lab): The stress on rehabilitation is welcomed across with front-line offenders; it is about extending the system the House, but is it correct that the public sector will not and making it more efficient so that we can provide able to bid for the payment-by-results contracts? How more support to the people who need it. can it be good to exclude some of the people with the most expertise and professional training in these matters? Dame Angela Watkinson (Hornchurch and Upminster) (Con): One of the biggest stumbling blocks for repeat Chris Grayling: No, that is not correct. I hope that we offenders who want to turn their lives around and be can pray in aid the spirit of the co-operative movement, productive and law-abiding is finding paid employment. which has played a great role in this country over the Has my right hon. Friend held any discussions with past 200 years. We are actively encouraging and supporting potential employers in the private or public sector who members of our probation teams who want to form would be willing to take that risk and offer employment mutual organisations to bid for the contracts, and I to people with criminal records? hope that they will do so. Chris Grayling: We are working hard to increase links Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): The figures from my with employers. The amount of work done in prisons right hon. Friend’s Department make it perfectly clear has increased dramatically, and much of that takes that the longer people spend in prison, the less likely place with potential post-prison employers—I pay tribute they are to reoffend. That is largely because they have to the rail industry, for example, and the work it is time to do things such as learn how to read before they doing. As we roll out these reforms, I want Jobcentre are released. What weight does he place on the use of Plus and Work programme providers to be more closely longer prison sentences to reduce reoffending? The involved with prisons, and to do everything we can to Department is also clear that indeterminate sentences ensure that people flow from prison into employment. for public protection have the lowest reoffending rate of If we talk to most prisoners about what they would like all sentences. Given that reducing reoffending is so to do when they leave, the answer is get a job. We must important, why on earth have the Government got rid help them do so. of the thing that had the lowest reoffending rate of all? Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): The Secretary Chris Grayling: Let me reassure my hon. Friend that of State said that payment in full would be dependent the length of time that people are spending in prison on results. Can he say what proportion of payment will has been increasing, not decreasing. I agree that we be dependent on success, and what proportion will take need to take advantage of the opportunity to turn the form of an up-front fee? people’s lives around in prison. Those who say that short sentences do not work and should not happen Chris Grayling: The answer to that is: as of yet, not always miss the point that 80% of the people who arrive exactly, because there will be a bidding process. I emphasise in our prisons have been through a community sentence again, however, that that will not be simply about cost, that has not worked. On sentencing, we have introduced and that quality will be at least as important as cost and 157 Rehabilitation of Offenders9 MAY 2013 Rehabilitation of Offenders 158

[Chris Grayling] subcontractor model. In Peterborough and Doncaster, for example, partnerships are already being formed the proportion of the contract put at risk. It will not be between the private and voluntary sectors in a way that 100% payment by results because we must pay for can make a real difference. Such partnerships are to be orders of the court. I intend the providers to have some welcomed. of their money at risk so that they have every incentive to perform on our behalf. Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): In a parliamentary answer, the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, the hon. Member Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): My constituents for Kenilworth and Southam (Jeremy Wright), stated in Kettering are fed up with repeat offenders, but incensed that when those people are foreign nationals. The best way “public sector entities will not be able to bid” to have fewer crimes committed by fewer people is to ensure that foreign nationals cannot reoffend because for probation contracts after their first offence they are sent home. “as they will not be able to carry the financial risk.”—[Official Report, 25 March 2013; Vol. 560, c. 955W.] Chris Grayling: I rather agree with my hon. Friend. Will the Secretary of State confirm that public sector He and I both sit on the Eurosceptic wing of the contracts cannot be awarded to probation trusts? Conservative party, but one thing I welcome within the confines of the European Union is the prisoner transfer Chris Grayling: Self-evidently, the existing structure agreement. That is being ratified across the EU, and I of public probation trusts cannot take risk on behalf of hope it will soon allow us to send quite a lot of the the taxpayer, but staff are welcome—they are being people he is talking about back to their home countries helped actively—to establish co-operative movements where they belong. and social enterprises that bid for the business. That is to be welcomed. I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): The right hon. Gentleman is a Labour and Co-operative Member, but he sits with cannot avoid the fact that under the previous Labour many who are. Surely he welcomes that approach. Government, reoffending rates fell. I have a specific question that he keeps avoiding. One key determining Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): I congratulate factor in stopping people reoffending is getting a job the Justice Secretary on his statement. Rehabilitation is and housing. Given that thousands of people in my a long-held Liberal Democrat value. We need to focus constituency who are not offenders and have not been on reoffending rather than engage in a competition as to prison cannot get a job or housing, what practical to who can be the most draconian and pose about it. He measures will he put in place to provide better access to is right to highlight short-term prison sentences and to jobs and housing for offenders? provide probation support. He knows that such sentences are expensive but not effective. Does he agree that Chris Grayling: We want to try to ensure that everyone spending more money on rehabilitation and on better gets a job and is housed. Everyone in the hon. Gentleman’s community sentencing might be a better way of using constituency has a vested interest in ensuring we bring it? down reoffending, because otherwise there will be more victims of crime. One thing I expect to see—this is Chris Grayling: I can reassure my hon. Friend that already happening in parts of the provider community the issue unites the coalition—there has been a lot of —is housing capabilities being part of the bids, and we talk of the coalition parties having differences on policy, already have partnerships between voluntary sector but let us champion a policy on which we are united on organisations and housing organisations to deliver better the need for change. As hon. Members will see when support for offenders. I want closer ties between Jobcentre they read the document, one thing that is different in Plus, Work programme providers and those delivering the package I have announced is that we are building rehabilitation. We must ensure that we get as many rehabilitation support into community sentences. Clearly, offenders as possible back on the straight and narrow the aim is to ensure that people do not get to prison in when they leave prison, to avoid having more victims of the first place. My goal is to see prison numbers fall crime than we have today. steadily not because we want to close prisons for its own sake, but because fewer people reoffend, and we therefore Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): I warmly welcome do not need to put them in jail in future. the proposals outlined by the Secretary of State, and he will know that they have evolved and been trialled with organisations, charities and voluntary groups such as Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab): When the St Giles Trust. Will he ensure that as the programme probation officers dared to criticise the Secretary of is rolled out, smaller organisations that drive much of State’s bonkers plans, he put a gagging order on them. the innovation and change, and many of the good ideas, When the chairman of the Criminal Bar Association will have a fair crack at getting their talents recognised criticised the Secretary of State’s bonkers ideas for in partnerships with larger primes, as well as a bid criminal legal aid, he refused to meet him. Is it criticism process that is not too cumbersome? he cannot stand, or engaging with the professions within the justice system? Chris Grayling: That latter point is important and we will try to ensure that the bid process is as simple as Chris Grayling: The hon. Gentleman needs to stop possible for smaller organisations, and that it is as believing everything he reads in the papers. simple as possible for partnerships to be formed. I am not attracted by simply having a universal prime and Karl Turner: They told me. 159 Rehabilitation of Offenders9 MAY 2013 Rehabilitation of Offenders 160

Chris Grayling: My ministerial and I colleagues have reoffending rate of a cohort of offenders referred to a regular meetings with leading figures in the legal profession provider, and a measure for the overall reduction in the and with leading probation staff, and will continue to number of crimes committed by that cohort. That will do so. I most recently had meetings with both the Bar mean that a prolific offender cannot simply be parked Council and the Law Society within the past couple of in the corner and ignored: there will be a financial weeks. incentive for a provider to work with every offender.

Karl Turner: You’re telling fibs. Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): During the 12 months of support I understand that Mr Speaker: Order. I heard that last sedentary interjection, there will be cannabis testing and that individuals will which was an imputation of dishonesty. I know the hon. be required to attend drug treatment services. Will the Gentleman will want to withdraw that. Minister explain how that will be costed, and which of the new NHS bodies will be responsible for providing Karl Turner: Yes, please, Mr Speaker. I withdraw it. and commissioning those services?

Mr Speaker: We are grateful to the hon. Gentleman Chris Grayling: There are already drug testing services and will move on. in place for offenders who are on licence and who are believed to have a drug issue. We are simply extending Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con): I the testing from class A to class B drugs, and taking the welcome the measures announced by my right hon. power to do that testing through the 12-month period. Friend to help young offenders. Does he agree that we That will be dealt with within the costing of the package can provide help through smaller charitable and voluntary as a whole. organisations, such as Action Acton in my constituency, which does excellent work? Does he also recognise that some smaller organisations find that waiting a long Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): Financial time for payment by results stretches their resources to capability also plays a vital part in rehabilitation. Will breaking point? the Secretary of State encourage partners in through- the-gate support to look carefully at the pilot programmes Chris Grayling: My hon. Friend makes an important undertaken by some banks and in particular by credit point. We intend to ensure that any passing of risk unions, to help people to budget, save and participate down a supply chain is done in a transparent way. We fully in the legitimate economy? will do everything we can to protect the interests of smaller organisations, but they must take advantage of Chris Grayling: That is a fair point. A range of that protection and not simply sign up to deals that they different issues affect reoffending. I expect our providers cannot afford. to provide a glue between the different organisations that can play a role in reducing reoffending, with help Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): There is no doubt in on debt advice, housing options, rehab support and so my mind that the proposals are simply the privatisation on. Providing that central support, help and encouragement of a highly valuable, well performing public service—the for the individual will be of fundamental importance. probation service. Despite a cut of more than £1.8 million last year, the Northumbria Probation Trust in my area Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab): May I echo is one of four trusts graded excellent performers. Why the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for does the Justice Secretary not just admit it and come Kingston upon Hull East (Karl Turner) on the perceived clean that the statement is not about reoffenders or the lack of engagement with those in the legal profession general public, but about the prize of privatisation, on some of the proposals, particularly those relating to political dogma and ideology? criminal legal aid? They do feel that they are not being listened to. Given that payment by results is at the Chris Grayling: I understand full well where the hon. cornerstone of the proposals, if the Secretary of State Gentleman comes from politically. The problem with cannot say now whether it will be 25% up front and 75% his argument is that the legislation that enables me to payment by results—or 50:50, 75:25 or 90:10—will he make these proposals was passed by the Labour indicate when he can outline the proposals with more Government. clarity? A number of excellent third sector providers will want to engage with this process and they need to John Glen (Salisbury) (Con): I welcome the statement have that information sooner rather than later. and the Justice Secretary’s sense of mission and purpose. However, on payment for results, I ask him to be Chris Grayling: The whole point of the bidding process cautious of creating perverse incentives to meet targets, is to look at quality, price and the proportion that and to ensure that the measures are sufficiently nuanced individual organisations will be able to put at risk. We to take account of the behavioural challenges in getting will publish a detailed tender document in due course, difficult categories of offenders fully clear of reoffending. and that will give indicators of options and parameters The measures must be sophisticated enough to deal within which they can work. I intend to publish that with such complexity. document for the House at the appropriate time. On meeting the legal profession, hardly a week goes by at Chris Grayling: That is a very important point. We the moment without a member of my ministerial team took careful heed of the responses to our consultation or myself having a detailed discussion with senior figures on this matter. The mechanism for payment by results of representative groups in the legal profession. The last will contain two elements: an overall reduction in the such meeting I held was yesterday. 161 Rehabilitation of Offenders9 MAY 2013 Rehabilitation of Offenders 162

Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): Given criminal courts of this country, I know that the disconnect the drive across government to support the recovery of to which he refers has existed for many years, but has those addicted to drugs and alcohol, can the Justice not previously been acted on. Secretary assure me that offenders will not be released On the specific steps, can my right hon. Friend reassure without planning— they are often released on a Friday me that the proposed local partnership arrangements night, into the hands of dealers sitting on the streets—but will fully involve local authorities in that process and will be met by rehabilitation experts, those who provide respect the work being done on community budgeting? a network of recovery champions referred to by my Furthermore, does he agree that the work of those in hon. Friend the Member for Worthing West (Sir Peter the voluntary and charitable sector, which turns these Bottomley) and those who know best how to enable people’s lives around, is one of the most powerful people to go straight? means of getting messages through to ex-offenders and that their work deserves rather more respect than it Chris Grayling: I can give that assurance. First, I am appears to be given by the cavalier comments from the looking hard at the issue of Friday night releases. Opposition Front Bench? Secondly, the through-the-gate structure will ensure that whenever someone leaves prison they will be met at the gate by an organisation that will take immediate Chris Grayling: I rather agree with my hon. Friend. I care over their lives. Thirdly, Members will see in the can certainly reassure him that we will be looking for document that a joint project between the Ministry of organisations that can demonstrate the ability to maintain Justice and the Department of Health will be trialled to partnerships where they are necessary. I am at a loss as measure the impact of a more substantial through-the-gate to why the Labour party does not seem to think that rehabilitation treatment service, with a view to extending using the expertise of the former offender gone straight it more broadly as and when we know the results. to help turn around the life of a younger offender is anything but a very good idea. I ask them to get out of Westminster a bit and visit some of the charities where Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): I welcome today’s it is already happening to see the impact. It is substantial statement for two reasons: first, its focus on reoffending, and we should make more of it. which is exactly the right thing to do; and secondly, the emphasis on continuity between being in prison and going out beyond prison, which is critical. Will the Lord Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con): Does the Secretary Chancellor bear in mind, however, the importance of of State agree that behind every short term of imprisonment education during the rehabilitation process? In particular, is a reason for offending, yet the lack of a system young people who cannot read or communicate properly prevents us from getting to the root of that reason? We are at a disadvantage, and the process he envisages need the probation service or any other provider to could well help in that field. ensure that we work and assist these offenders in the longer term, because if we get this right, it provides the Chris Grayling: My hon. Friend is right that basic best opportunity in a generation to turn these offenders skills are fundamental to helping somebody get a job. I away from a life of crime. hope and expect that we will now have a much greater connection between resettlement services and education Chris Grayling: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. courses post-prison. I want somebody who cannot read We have chosen an extended one-year period of supervision properly and might have started training in prison to even for people who receive very short sentences, because come straight out of prison and into the local college those who go to prison for a few weeks are those in to continue that work. With the kind of support we will danger of going back to prison again and again and for be providing, that will be much more likely to happen. longer and longer. If we can stop them doing so early on, ideally before they get to prison in the first place, by Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): I warmly providing rehabilitation support for those on a community welcome my right hon. Friend’s statement. From my sentence, we can stop the cycle of reoffending that he is 30 years’ experience as a practitioner at the Bar of the right to say is damaging. 163 9 MAY 2013 Speaker’s Statement 164

Speaker’s Statement MARRIAGE (SAME SEX COUPLES)BILL Presentation and resumption of proceedings (Standing Order No. 80A) 11.27 am Secretary Maria Miller, supported by the Prime Minister, Mr Speaker: In accordance with Standing Order the Deputy Prime Minister, Mr Chancellor of the No. 122D, I will now announce the arrangements for Exchequer, Mrs Secretary May, Secretary Michael Gove, the election of the Chair of the Backbench Business Mr Secretary Pickles, Hugh Robertson, Lynne Featherstone, Committee for the new Session. Mrs Helen Grant and Jo Swinson, presented a Bill to If there is more than one candidate, the ballot will be make provision for the marriage of same sex couples in held in Committee Room 16 from 11 am to 1 pm on England and Wales, about gender change by married Thursday 16 May. persons and civil partners, about consular functions in relation to marriage, for the marriage of armed forces Nominations must be submitted in the lower Table personnel overseas, and for connected purposes. Office between 10 am and 5 pm on the day before the ballot. Bill read the First and Second time without Question put (Standing Order No. 80A and Order, 5 February); to In accordance with the Standing Order, only Members be considered tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 3) with who do not belong to a party represented in Her Majesty’s explanatory notes (Bill 3-EN). Government may be candidates in the election. A briefing note with more details about the election will be made available to Members and published on ENERGY BILL the intranet. Presentation and resumption of proceedings (Standing Order No. 80A) Secretary Edward Davey, supported by the Prime BILLS PRESENTED Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister, Mr Secretary Hague, Mr Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr Secretary Hammond, Secretary Vince Cable, Mr Secretary Pickles, FINANCE BILL Mr Secretary Paterson, Mr Oliver Letwin, Gregory Presentation and resumption of proceedings (Standing Barker and Michael Fallon, presented a Bill to make Order No. 80B) provision for the setting of a decarbonisation target Mr Chancellor of the Exchequer, supported by the range and duties in relation to it; for or in connection Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister, Secretary with reforming the electricity market for purposes of Vince Cable, Mr Secretary Duncan Smith, Mr Secretary encouraging low carbon electricity generation or ensuring Pickles, Danny Alexander, Greg Clark, Mr David Gauke security of supply; for the establishment and functions and Sajid Javid, presented a Bill to grant certain duties, of the Office for Nuclear Regulation; about the government to alter other duties, and to amend the law relating to pipe-line and storage system and rights exercisable in the National Debt and the Public Revenue, and to make relation to it; about the designation of a strategy and further provision in connection with finance. policy statement; about domestic supplies of gas and electricity; for extending categories of activities for which Bill read the First and Second time, clauses 1, 3, 16, energy licences are required; for the making of orders 183, 184 and 200 to 212 and schedules 3 and 41 as requiring regulated persons to provide redress to consumers reported from a Committee of the whole House were laid of gas or electricity; about offshore transmission of upon the Table without Question put, and the Bill stood electricity during a commissioning period; for imposing committed to a Public Bill Committee in respect of fees in connection with certain costs incurred by the clauses 6 to 15, 17 to 182, 185 to 199 and 213 to 232 and Secretary of State; and for connected purposes. schedules 1, 2, 4 to 40 and 42 to 49 (Standing Order No. 80B and Order, 15 April); and to be printed (Bill 1). Bill read the First and Second time without Question put (Standing Order No. 80A and Order, 19 December); to be considered tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 4) with FINANCIAL SERVICES (BANKING REFORM)BILL explanatory notes (Bill 4-EN). Presentation and resumption of proceedings (Standing Order No. 80A) CHILDREN AND FAMILIES BILL Mr Chancellor of the Exchequer, supported by the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister, Secretary Presentation and resumption of proceedings (Standing Vince Cable, Danny Alexander, Greg Clark, Mr David Order No. 80A) Gauke and Sajid Javid, presented a Bill to make further Secretary Michael Gove, supported by the Prime provision about banking and other financial services, Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister, Secretary Vince including provision about the Financial Services Cable, Secretary Chris Grayling, Mr Secretary Hunt, Compensation Scheme; to make provision for the amounts Steve Webb, Mr Edward Timpson, Jo Swinson and owed in respect of certain deposits to be treated as a Elizabeth Truss, presented a Bill to make provision preferential debt on insolvency; to make provision about about children, families, and people with special educational the accounts of the Bank of England and its wholly needs; to make provision about the right to request owned subsidiaries; and for connected purposes. flexible working; and for connected purposes. Bill read the First and Second time without Question Bill read the First and Second time without Question put (Standing Order No. 80A and Order, 11 March); to put (Standing Order No. 80A and Order, 25 February); be considered tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 2) with to be considered tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 5) with explanatory notes (Bill 2-EN). explanatory notes (Bill 5-EN). 165 Speaker’s Statement 9 MAY 2013 166

PENSIONS BILL Debate on the Address Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) Mr Secretary Duncan Smith, supported by the Prime [2ND DAY] Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister, Mr Chancellor of Debate resumed (Order, 8 May). the Exchequer, Danny Alexander, Secretary Vince Cable, Question again proposed, Mr Oliver Letwin and Steve Webb, presented a Bill to make provision about pensions and about benefits payable That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, as follows : to people in connection with bereavement; and for connected purposes. Most Gracious Sovereign , We, YourMajesty’s most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Commons Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 6) with explanatory Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to notes (Bill 6-EN). Your Majesty for the Gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament . ANTI-SOCIAL BEHAVIOUR,CRIME AND POLICING BILL Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) Home Affairs Mrs Secretary May, supported by the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister, Mr Chancellor of the 11.31 am Exchequer, Secretary Chris Grayling, Mr Secretary Pickles, Mr Secretary Paterson, the Attorney-General and The Secretary of State for the Home Department Mr Jeremy Browne, presented a Bill to make provision (Mrs Theresa May): The Gracious Speech we heard yesterday about anti-social behaviour, crime and disorder, including put forward a comprehensive legislative programme. provision about recovery of possession of dwelling-houses; Underlying it is a basic principle: this Government want to make provision amending the Dangerous Dogs Act to ensure that people who work hard and want to get on 1991, Schedules 7 and 8 to the Terrorism Act 2000 and in life are able to do so. We believe that it is part of the the Extradition Act 2003; to make provision about Government’s role to help people who want to work firearms and about forced marriage; to make provision hard to succeed. We want to ensure that those who do about the police, the Independent Police Complaints the right thing do not find themselves penalised for their Commission and the Serious Fraud Office; to make honesty and their commitment to playing fair. The provision about criminal justice and court fees; and for corollary of that is that those who cheat the system and connected purposes. who do not play by the rules should be prevented from being able to take advantage, at the expense of the Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time decent and hard-working majority. tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 7) with explanatory notes (Bill 7-EN). Nowhere is this more true than in the immigration system. We are going to make the UK a harder place to live for an immigrant who has not played by the rules—who GAMBLING (LICENSING AND ADVERTISING) Bill has dishonestly overstayed their visa, for example, or Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) who does not have one at all—or who has committed a Secretary Maria Miller, supported by the Prime Minister, serious crime. The immigration Bill referred to in the the Deputy Prime Minister, Mr Chancellor of the Gracious Speech will do three things. First, it will Exchequer, Mr Secretary Pickles, Mr Secretary Hunt, diminish the pull factors that make migrants want to Mrs Secretary Villiers, Danny Alexander and Hugh come to Britain to take but not to contribute. Secondly, Robertson, presented a Bill to make provision about the it will make Britain a harder place to live for those who licensing and advertising of gambling. have no right to be here. Thirdly, it will make it easier to Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time remove foreign nationals who have committed serious tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 8) with explanatory crimes and who should be deported. It will streamline notes (Bill 8-EN). the appeals system, making it much less slow and cumbersome, and give fewer opportunities for using the NORTHERN IRELAND (MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS) Human Rights Act 1998 to avoid deportation. BILL Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): Will the Home Secretary explain to the House why she has sent Mrs Secretary Villiers, supported by the Prime Minister, back fewer foreign prisoners than were sent back in the the Deputy Prime Minister, Secretary Michael Moore, last year of the Labour Government? Mr Secretary Jones, Miss Chloe Smith and Mike Penning, presented a Bill to make provision about donations, Mrs May: If the hon. Lady cares to look at the loans and related transactions for political purposes in figures, she will see that there has been a significant connection with Northern Ireland; to amend the Northern increase in the number of appeals by foreign national Ireland Assembly Disqualification Act 1975 and the prisoners, which is delaying their deportation. That is Northern Ireland Act 1998; to make provision about exactly why this Government are bringing forward measures the registration of electors and the administration of in the immigration Bill to deal with the appeals system, elections in Northern Ireland; and to make miscellaneous and I hope that those on the Opposition Front Bench amendments in the law relating to Northern Ireland. will support them. Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time One of the most fundamental injustices of the present tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 9) with explanatory system is one that many Members will be aware of from notes (Bill 9-EN). the complaints of their constituents. It is the extent to which immigrants can call on publicly funded services 167 Debate on the Address9 MAY 2013 Debate on the Address 168 without having made any contribution to the system The immigration Bill will provide that simplification. It that provides them. Our system is one of universal will also set out how the courts should interpret article 8 provision, and it will remain so under this Government, of the European convention on human rights, which but it is also one that requires some contribution to be sets out the right to respect for private and family life. made in order for that provision to be accessed. That is Last July, we set out clearly before the House what the the basic principle of justice that underpins the system, right to family life should mean. That interpretation but it is a principle that has been flouted. When the Bill was adopted by the House without a Division, because becomes law, it will be respected. it was unopposed. Unfortunately, some judges have The Bill will ensure that temporary migrants and chosen to ignore that interpretation. The immigration others will not be able to have free access to the NHS Bill will provide them with rules on how article 8 should until they have made at least some contribution to the be interpreted that will have statutory force. It will place Exchequer. Furthermore, the Bill will strengthen legislation strict limits on the circumstances in which the right to that penalises businesses that employ illegal immigrants. family life can be invoked to block deportation. In It is obviously unfair that those who are not entitled to particular, it will put an end to the unjust situation in be in Britain should be able to take jobs that ought to be which immigrants convicted of serious offences can filled by people who are so entitled. The Bill will strengthen escape deportation merely by claiming that it would our ability to enforce penalties on employers that have interfere with their right to family life. used illegal workers. It will also confirm that a migrant must have lawful immigration status of more than six Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con): My right months to qualify for a UK driving licence. hon. Friend is making a very important point. The House has made it abundantly clear that the will of the Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) British people is that we should be able to deport people (Lab): On the Home Secretary’s point about businesses who it is considered undesirable to have in this country. that employ illegal migrants, will she explain why the What assurance can she give the House that judges are number of businesses fined for so doing has dropped by going to listen to what the House is saying this time, 40% since the general election? given that they have not done so in the past?

Mrs May: The rate of certain aspects of prosecutions Mrs May: My hon. Friend makes a good point: many taking place in relation to certain individuals has actually people are incredibly frustrated by cases in which judges been higher under this Government than it was under decide that the right to family life means that someone the last Labour Government. That is one of the areas— should not be deported, despite evidence of a significant [Interruption.] I have to say that I am not sure— level of criminality. Last July, when we made changes to the immigration rules, I hoped and expected that judges Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con): On a would respond to those changes, given that there was point of order, Mr Speaker. An hon. Member has just cross-party support for them. As I said, there was no called across the House, saying, “Stop making that opposition to them in the House. The fundamental stupid face.” Is that parliamentary language? difference this time around is that the changes will be made through primary legislation rather than through Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the immigration rules. his point of order. I did not hear the expression concerned, I now move on to the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime but I think that it falls into the category of behaviour and Policing Bill. The Bill aims to diminish the extent to that is discourteous but not disorderly. We will leave it which honest and hard-working people are preyed on there for the time being, but I appeal to Members on by criminals and by bullies who show no regard for the both sides of the House to remember what I said basic rules of civilised living. It will do so in three ways. yesterday. Speaking on behalf of the House and of the First, it will make it easier for citizens to get the police public, I believe that we should try to express ourselves or local authorities to take action against people whose with restraint, moderation and good humour, in the antisocial behaviour disrupts their lives. Secondly, it best traditions required by “Erskine May”. includes measures to ensure that we can tackle organised crime more effectively. In particular, we are substantially Mrs May: Thank you, Mr Speaker. increasing the maximum penalty for the illegal importation of guns, and creating a new offence of The Bill will also introduce a duty on private landlords to carry out immigration checks when letting property. “possession for sale or transfer” It will penalise landlords who rent property to migrants of illegal firearms. Thirdly, it continues the process of who are not entitled to stay in Britain. reform of the police, so that police officers have clear We shall also introduce an amendment to the professional standards and are able to spend more of immigration regulations covering EU nationals who their time fighting crime than filling in forms. come to the UK in search of work. They will cease to The Bill also contains a provision to make forcing a have a right to reside here and will have no access to person to marry a criminal offence. Forced marriage is a benefits if, after six months, they do not have a job and serious problem in some communities in Britain today. do not have a realistic chance of getting one. There is a It is an abomination: it is totally incompatible with the glaring unfairness in the way that immigrants’ claims to values of a free society that anyone should be forced have the right to settle here are assessed. The system has into a marriage. Astonishingly, however, forcing a person become so complex that, as one senior judge said recently, into marriage is not a crime under our law. This Bill will “immigration law has now become an impenetrable jungle of remedy that situation, and in doing so, it will signal very intertwined statutory provision and judicial decisions...There is clearly that this country does not tolerate the forcing of an acute need for simplification”. one person by another into marriage. The Bill will also 169 Debate on the Address9 MAY 2013 Debate on the Address 170

[Mrs May] We will, of course, look carefully at the drafting to make sure that the provision is as effective as everybody make easier the prosecution of people who attempt it. would want it to be. Prosecutors will no longer have to identify other offences such as assault or kidnapping before they can start Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): The proposals to proceedings against someone for forcing another into amend legislation to cover attacks on private property marriage. are, of course, very welcome. However, it is extremely disappointing that there is no dog control notice measure Antisocial behaviour is destructive, demoralising and or something similar, to prevent attacks from happening damaging. When it is repeated over and over again on in the first place. the same victims, its results can be tragic, as numerous cases involving some of the most vulnerable and easily Mrs May: I am conscious that a number of people hurt people in our society have shown. The existing have been asking specifically for a dog control notice. means for dealing with antisocial behaviour are neither We have not introduced it because we believe that the quick nor effective. The Bill will give new powers to the other powers and orders we are introducing under this police, councils and landlords that will ensure that antisocial behaviour Bill will give sufficient power to the quick and effective remedies are available. It will also police to be able to deal with dangerous dogs without give people the power to require agencies to deal with needing to introduce a separate—and yet another—notice. antisocial behaviour. It will no longer be possible for a police force or a council to ignore repeated complaints, Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): I was bitten by as it is now. what was obviously a weapon dog during the last election campaign, so although I was not seriously hurt and did Sir Peter Bottomley: I invite my right hon. Friend to not suffer too much, I am very concerned about this join me in congratulating the police on making savings issue. I am also concerned about it on behalf of my and on working far more effectively in reducing crime. constituents, who have made many complaints about On the issue of antisocial behaviour, will she review dangerous dogs. Are the Government going to be serious whether unauthorised campers and Travellers returning about dealing with this problem and reintroduce licensing, to the same place, doing damage and causing costs can with every dog having to be chipped, and with a proactive be dealt with more effectively? This sort of antisocial role for dog wardens and the police to ensure that dogs behaviour is not acceptable and it is resented by local are not dangerous? residents. Mrs May: Excellent work is done by dog wardens in many local authorities throughout the country. We feel Mrs May: I recognise the problem that my hon. that the legislation we are introducing, which will extend Friend identifies as one that affects many communities the ability to deal with dangerous dogs, is sufficient to up and down the country. I am pleased to say that in be able to cover the issues that cannot be covered at numerous places we have already seen the police taking present. I know some people say, “Why don’t we go a more robust approach in dealing with these particular back to having the dog licence that was held in the issues. I encourage the police to do that when they are past?” Not only is that quite difficult to administer, but, faced with these problems which, as my hon. Friend unfortunately, all too often the owners of dogs we will says, cause considerable concern to local residents. need to be concerned about do not bother to get a dog This Bill aims to give people much greater control licence, whereas the law-abiding citizens do. Giving the over the services that are meant to help them, but which police extra powers to deal with dangerous dogs so that have often in the past been operated for the convenience they can deal with them in all situations, even within the of those delivering them. The Bill will change that private home where the dog normally resides, gives the situation. important extension of powers to the police that will The Bill tackles another aspect of antisocial behaviour: enable them to deal with dangerous dogs wherever they irresponsible dog ownership. It will extend the offence may be in the community. of being in charge of a dog that is dangerously out of I am sorry to hear of the experience the hon. Gentleman control to apply to any location. had during the last election campaign. Dogs and letterboxes are the major problems for campaigners. [Interruption.] Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): In Yes, I think there would be widespread support for looking at the problem of dangerous dogs, can we be measures on that. more careful this time round, because the last time we The reform of the police and the modernisation of attempted this performance, it was a bit of a fiasco and their regulatory framework has been one of the most we ended up with bad legislation? The right hon. Lady important aims of this Government, and it still is. We is right to highlight this issue as a pressing need, but we have ended the tyranny of national targets, eliminated need to be very careful about how we frame this legislation. useless bureaucracy and freed up police officers’ time so they can fight crime rather than fill in forms. We have Mrs May: I accept what the right hon. Gentleman set up the National Crime Agency to fight the cancer of says—that it is important in introducing legislation to organised crime, we set up the Winsor review of police look carefully at what its impact might be. The clauses pay and conditions, and we are determined that the relating to dangerous dogs are limited in number. They priorities of the police should reflect those of the public extend the ability to deal with dangerous dogs into they serve. private places. Sadly, we have seen a number of cases With the election of police and crime commissioners, where individuals, and particularly children, have been we have made local police forces more accountable to attacked by dogs in the family home. The current legislation the people they serve. This Bill will provide the new College does not cover that, but the Bill will enable us to do so. of Policing with the powers it needs to set standards for 171 Debate on the Address9 MAY 2013 Debate on the Address 172 the police in England and Wales. It will also ensure that Mrs May: I am being very generous to the hon. Lady. the Independent Police Complaints Commission has the powers it needs to investigate complaints of misconduct Helen Goodman: The Home Secretary is indeed being effectively. most generous this morning. When she is considering Although this was not specifically mentioned in the what to do about IP addresses, will she also look into Gracious Speech yesterday, we intend to introduce measures having better, tighter systems for age verification? We to clarify the compensation arrangements for those hear a lot about how a better age-verification system whose property is damaged by riots. The law on this has would deal with many of the problems that we are not been changed since 1886, and, unsurprisingly, it is facing on the net. in great need of modernisation: for example, the Riot (Damages) Act 1886 does not cover damage to cars, Mrs May: The hon. Lady’s point does not technically because, of course, in 1886 there were no cars. This come under the remit of the communications data issue month, an independent review of the 1886 Act that I and deals with access to the internet more widely. If I have commissioned will commence. It should conclude have understood the point she is making, there is an by the end of September. We shall then consult publicly, issue to address. Some hon. Members have been taking before looking to publish a draft Bill in spring 2014, this point up; my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes with the aim of introducing it in the fourth Session of (Claire Perry), for example, has been doing a lot of this Parliament. work in this area and examining any possible changes. It is one of the fundamental duties of Government to Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): I protect the law-abiding public from the effects of criminal am a little confused about what is being proposed for behaviour, and I would like to update the House on the data now. Will it deal solely and exclusively with IP position regarding our proposals on communications addresses or is the plan to bring in, either in this Session data. The Government are committed to ensuring that or the next one, what we all described as a snooper’s law enforcement and intelligence agencies have the powers charter? they need to protect the public. Existing legislation already allows those agencies to monitor who has Mrs May: The hon. Gentleman refers to the proposed communicated by telephone, as well as with whom, measure as a snooper’s charter, as others have done, but when and where. These data are used in 95% of all it was not about snooping and it was not a charter. It is investigations into serious and organised crime, and about ensuring—this will continue in the proposal we they have played a role in every major counter-terrorism bring forward—that we are able to deal with the situation operation by the security services in the last decade, but that is emerging, where it is becoming harder to identify terrorists, paedophiles and criminal gangs today increasingly these communications because people are using new communicate with each other over the internet using methods of communication that are not covered by the latest electronic technology. Our proposals are simply existing legislation. about ensuring that we can keep up with criminals as they shift to e-mails, instant messages and the internet, Hon. Members will note that I have not referred to rather than making phone calls. We cannot leave the the justice Bill, which will increase public protection by British public exposed to dangers which could be eliminated ending early release schemes for dangerous offenders, were communications data obtained. As the Gracious or to the offender rehabilitation Bill, which, as we have Speech yesterday indicated, we will be bringing forward just heard in my right hon. Friend the Justice Secretary’s proposals to address this most important issue. statement, will require that all offenders released from prison, including those given short sentences, serve at least 12 months under statutory supervision in the Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): The Home community. Neither of those important Bills is the Secretary is well aware of my position, and I thank her subject of debate today. The Opposition are in charge for giving way. Will she confirm that, as was said in the of the debate following the Gracious Speech, so will the Gracious Speech, these proposals will relate only to the shadow Home Secretary explain why the Labour party aspects involving internet protocol address matching, does not consider the rehabilitation of offenders and on which she and I agree, and will be coupled with the cutting reoffending to be worthy of inclusion in the safeguards requested by the Joint Committee? debate? Perhaps she does not feel that the shadow Justice Secretary is up to the debate, which might well Mrs May: I was about to say that the hon. Gentleman be true, given that he was not even here to respond to was a little slow in jumping up; I thought he might have that statement, but we would like to know. done so when I first mentioned communications data. The Bills I have outlined send an unambiguous message: He was a member of that scrutiny Committee, so he will we are on the side of hard-working families; we will be aware that it said there was a case for legislation in help people who play by the rules and who want to get this area. We accepted a number of the Joint Committee’s on in life; and people should be able to receive benefits recommendations on the proposed Communications only if they contribute something first. On crime, antisocial Data Bill. As I have just explained, because this is an behaviour and immigration, the Government and this important area for catching criminals and for dealing legislative programme are on the side of the people, and with terrorists and paedophiles, it is right that the I commend it to the House. Government are looking to address the issue. The wording of the Queen’s Speech yesterday made it clear that the Government intend to address the issue and, as I say, 11.53 am proposals will be brought forward. Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab): Once again in the Queen’s Speech we have heard Helen Goodman: Will the Secretary of State give way? grand claims, from the Home Secretary and indeed 173 Debate on the Address9 MAY 2013 Debate on the Address 174

[Yvette Cooper] much among themselves that the result is a shambolic approach to a serious issue. Time and again, that is from the Prime Minister yesterday, about what their what we see: there is strong rhetoric from the Home plans will do on immigration, antisocial behaviour, law Secretary, and then the reality simply does not stack up. and order, and justice. Sadly, however, the grand claims It is the same when we come to the so-called “flagship” are simply not backed up by the reality of what they are immigration Bill. We now discover that the Bill will not doing. be published until the autumn, because the Government The trouble is that we have been here before. We all have obviously still not worked out what on earth to do remember how in this Government’s first Queen’s Speech about it. This is an area where we agree that action is the Home Secretary brought us the Police Reform and needed. Yesterday, the Government told us that the Bill Social Responsibility Bill. She said that it would give would have five central elements, but now it turns out the police that three already exist and will not require primary “a strong democratic mandate from the ballot box”.—[Official legislation, and two are merely proposals for consultation. Report, 13 December 2010; Vol. 520, c. 708.] On jobseeker’s allowance, the Government are replicating Instead, she spent £100 million on shambolic elections the exact words in existing regulations. When the Health and only one in eight people turned out to vote, which Secretary was asked about the NHS, all he could say was hardly a ringing endorsement. was that he promised to examine the extent of the Let us remember, too, what the Home Secretary said problem and do an audit. On private landlords, the about her counter-terror legislation. She said: Government cannot tell us how their policy will be “Public safety is enhanced, not diminished, by appropriate and enforced, because they do not know who the landlords proportionate powers.”—[Official Report, 7 June 2011; Vol. 529, are and they will not have a statutory register. Time and c. 69.] time again this Queen’s Speech has not set out the Instead, she bought terror suspects back to London detailed proposals that we need. Instead of “flagship” and on Boxing day one of them ran off in a black cab Bills, all we have are proposals that seem to have been and no one has seen him since. Let us remember how sketched out on the back of a fag packet—no wonder she promised that Abu Qatada would soon be on a the Government wanted to get rid of the cigarette plane, yet we are all still waiting. She promised there packaging legislation. would be no cuts to front-line police, yet more than 5,000 officers have already gone from 999 response and Mrs May: The right hon. Lady has made an attempt neighbourhood teams. Time and again, the rhetoric at two jokes during her speech, which is probably two does not match the reality. more than we normally have. I have a simple question The Home Secretary talked about the data communications for her: does she agree that net migration was too high Bill—that is, the missing data communications Bill. Here under the previous Labour Government? is what she said about that Bill less than six months ago: “This law is needed and it is needed now. And I am determined Yvette Cooper: We have already said that the pace of to see it through.” migration was too fast and that the level should come She also said: down; we have supported measures in that regard. “But Sun readers should know that I will not allow these vitally However, although the Home Secretary has made grand important laws to be delayed any longer in this Parliament.” claims about net migration and the Immigration Minister Instead, all that that the Queen’s Speech briefing says is is attempting to do the same, they will recognise that that the Government are working with companies and two thirds of their drop in net migration is a result of an increase in British citizens leaving the country and “It may involve legislation”— fewer British citizens returning home. “may”—it “may”; that is clearly the problem. Let me quote the numbers to the Home Secretary; she is on the edge of her seat, itching to intervene. In Dr Huppert: The shadow Home Secretary has carefully fact, the drop in net migration has been 72,000. Of avoided saying what the Labour party policy is on the those, 27,000 more Brits are leaving the country and data communications Bill. Two days ago, the right hon. 20,000 fewer Brits are coming home. Is she proud of a Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan set of policies that have driven British people out of the Johnson), the former Labour Home Secretary, said that country? I will give way to her if she wants to respond if Labour had won the last election it would have to that point. introduced such a measure. Is that her position? Can she enlighten us? Mrs May: On that statistical point, I suggest the right Yvette Cooper: The hon. Gentleman should contain hon. Lady looks at what the Office for National Statistics himself to squabbling within his coalition and struggling said, which was that it was not the emigration of British to get some answers. We have always said that action people that led to the drop in net migration. We have will be needed to ensure that the police can keep up reduced net migration by a third. I think she said that with changing technology. However, the draft data she accepted that net migration was too high under the communications Bill drawn up by the Home Secretary Labour Government. Will she now apologise for that? was far too wide; it gave the Home Secretary far too many powers and there were far too few safeguards for Yvette Cooper: The Home Secretary is targeting net privacy. It was absolutely right that something had to be migration, which she knows is affected by British people done, but that Bill was not the right approach. We must leaving the country—by people leaving as well as people wait to see what approach the Home Secretary will now arriving. I state the figures again: a 72,000 drop, 27,000 take, because Government Members are squabbling so more Brits leaving the country and 20,000 fewer coming 175 Debate on the Address9 MAY 2013 Debate on the Address 176 home. People obviously do not want to come back to forced marriage and the right hon. Lady will agree that Britain under her Government. That is the problem that it is important to get the legislation right. We support she has to face. action on dangerous dogs, though we will wait to see whether it goes far enough and to look at the detail of Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con): her proposals. Does the right hon. Lady accept that it is utterly astonishing that she is not apologising to the British people for We welcome action on fire arms, but what is the creating such an enormous amount of heartache and Home Secretary doing to stop people with a history of grief for them? Rather than encouraging my right hon. domestic violence owning a gun? We need an answer for Friend the Home Secretary in her attempts to put right Bobby Turnbull, whose mother, aunt and sister were the failings of the right hon. Lady’s Government, she is tragically killed by Michael Atherton, who was granted standing there and criticising. Should she not be a gun licence despite his history of abuse. We agree, too, apologising? with more support and rehabilitation for offenders, but where is the evidence that these untested massive private Yvette Cooper: Nice try from the hon. Lady, but the contracts will work? When the Justice Secretary tried it facts show that there is a series of problems in this for the Work programme, it proved worse than doing Government’s measures on immigration. I agree that we nothing at all, and when the Home Secretary tried it for should have had transitional controls on migration the Olympics, she ended up calling in the troops. from eastern Europe. There are things that the Labour Government should have done but which did not happen. Time and again the promises do not match the practice. They should have happened. The right hon. Lady promises action on antisocial behaviour, yet she is weakening powers, not strengthening We should have people working together. There are them. There will be no criminal sanction if antisocial many areas on which we agree with the Government behaviour measures are repeatedly breached. She promises and will support the measures that they are taking, but that the community trigger will make a difference in look at what has happened, particularly on illegal persistent cases, yet in the pilots it was hardly ever used. immigration. The number of people refused entry dropped Out of 23,000 incidents of antisocial behaviour in by 50%. The number of people absconding through Manchester, the trigger was implemented three times. Heathrow passport control trebled. The number caught In Richmond it was not used at all. afterwards halved. The backlog in finding failed asylum seekers has gone up. The number of illegal immigrants Yet still there is nothing to deal with the serious deported has gone down. This is not a catalogue of consequences for justice of the police cuts and the success on immigration from the right hon. Lady’s policies that the Government have pursued. For nearly Government. 10 years, the proportion of crimes brought to justice went up. In 2002, 18% of crimes were solved, and that Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con) rose— rose to more than 30% by the 2010 election. Crime fell, but a higher proportion of crimes were solved. Not any Yvette Cooper: I will give way to the hon. Gentleman, more. We all want crime to keep falling, but we need then I want to make some progress. support and justice for victims too. The proportion of crimes brought to justice has fallen since the election. Nick de Bois: The shadow Minister was bandying There are 15,000 fewer police officers, 200,000 fewer around figures about net migration and people leaving arrests and 30,000 fewer crimes solved, and some of the this country. She might do well to remember that in the most serious crimes of all have not been followed up or 10 years of her Government, 2 million people aged 25 offenders have been let off. to 44—the most economically active—left this country, and she has the cheek to lecture us about people not The Queen’s Speech proposes to expand community wanting to come back. resolutions for things such as antisocial behaviour, and we support more action in the community to resolve Yvette Cooper: As the hon. Gentleman will recognise, low-level crimes or antisocial behaviour—people apologising people are travelling and trading more than ever. That is to victims and making reparations. But it must not why immigration is an important issue for our future become a short cut for dealing with serious and violent and why we must get the policies right. A policy that crime because there are not enough police to do the job, targets net migration means that the Government can and that is what is happening on the Home Secretary’s claim to have made huge progress on the things that the watch. The number of serious and violent offenders let British people care about when they are failing to tackle off after they said sorry has gone up massively since the exploitation in the labour market and failing to tackle cuts started—up from 13,000 to 33,000 in just three years. illegal immigration, which is not even measured in the Yet it goes against all the guidance from the Association net migration statistics. Illegal immigration can go on of Chief Police Officers. ACPO says that it should not getting worse and worse, yet the Immigration Minister be used at all for domestic violence because it can make more and more claims about his target, and the result is that he is not listening to the real issues that “represents serious risk to the victims of such offences and is people are concerned about, particularly on illegal often subject to a complex and protracted investigation”. immigration. That is too right. We know the pattern in many domestic There are serious issues on immigration, crime and violence cases: the offender apologises and says he will justice that should be addressed in this Queen’s Speech never do it again and that he really, really loves her, until and we support action in all these areas. I shall cover the next time, when he hits her all over again. The each of them. We want to support many of the criminal justice system must not sanction that. Yet that Government’s measures, although we will scrutinise the is exactly what happened 2,700 times last year—a fivefold detail. We support action to stop the terrible crime of increase since before the election and before the cuts 177 Debate on the Address9 MAY 2013 Debate on the Address 178

[Yvette Cooper] Yvette Cooper: It is significant that the Home Office has cut around 5,000 staff from the UK Border Agency, started; a fivefold increase in the number of cases where and we have seen the consequences, for example in the a domestic violence offender was let off after they said growing delays for business people, who need visas sorry. rapidly, and longer delays and problems with appeals. What was the response from Ministers? The Home Crucially, we also need action to deal with the exploitation Office has refused to issue new guidance, to set safeguards, of migrant workers to undercut local staff. Where is the to raise the matter with ACPO, and to rethink police action to enforce the minimum wage? Where are the cuts. Instead it says that it is a measures to extend gangmasters licensing? Where are “matter for Chief Constables. Through crime maps and police the measures to stop agencies recruiting only from and crime commissioners, the public now have the means to hold abroad? Where are the measures to stop employers them to account.” using overcrowded housing to get around the minimum That is reassuring. The police are overstretched, violent wage? Higher fines for businesses employing illegal offenders are getting off, but at least we can Google it, labour are right, but they are no use if enforcement has and at least people get a vote in three years’ time. That is dropped by more than 800 companies since the general not an acceptable response to a serious problem. election. On immigration, the grand claims do not match the Let us also be clear that UK Independence party reality either. We support action in many of the areas policies would make the situation worse. It wants to end that the Government have talked about and we will statutory paid holidays, redundancy pay and maternity scrutinise the legislation when it finally comes forward. leave. Getting rid of those entitlements would be deeply Concerns about immigration are genuine and Parliament unfair. Also, to do so would make it easier, not harder, should respond. The pace of immigration has been too for employers to exploit migrant workers and undercut fast and we support measures to bring immigration local terms and conditions. The truth is that neither the down, particularly from low-skilled migration. But I Tories nor UKIP are willing to address the real problem hope that the Home Secretary will agree that Britain of exploitation and the practical issues that trouble has benefited from people coming to our shores through people because they are simply in a race to the bottom the generations and contributing to this country. From in the labour market and in the economy. If they really our great scientists to the founders of our most successful are concerned about deporting foreign criminals, why businesses, from our great artists to our Olympic gold are they all determined to opt out of the European medallists, people who have worked hard for this country arrest warrant, just because it has the word Europe in have boosted our society, our culture and our economy the title, and even though it was responsible for the swift too. deportation of 900 suspected foreign criminals last year As people travel and trade more than ever in future, for trial back home? The reality is that those policies are in global markets, immigration will be important to not driven by facts, justice or a serious concern to get Britain’s future as well. It is because immigration is immigration policy right. important that it needs to be controlled and managed so that it is fair for all. We supported the proposals on Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) article 8 when they were passed through Parliament last (Lab): On the question of deporting foreign-born criminals year. Article 8 is a qualified right and it is reasonable for to serve the balance of their sentence in their home Parliament to say how that should be balanced, especially countries, does my right hon. Friend agree that, given when crimes have been committed, and we will work that most of the prisoner swap agreements we have with further with the Home Secretary in this area. But she non-EU countries need the prisoner’s permission, it is should not pretend that the Government’s failure to difficult to see how the Government will achieve anything deport foreign criminals is all because of the Human with that stated policy? Rights Act. In fact, the number of foreign prisoners deported has fallen by 800 a year since the election, and Yvette Cooper: We are still waiting to see the detail of she has herself admitted that only a minority of cases the Government’s policy, because in so many of these involve successful appeals under article 8. Far more areas we get strong rhetoric but the reality does not add often the problem is lost paperwork and administrative up to it, and often it does not even emerge. incompetence, problems that have been getting worse The Home Secretary might think that she is fending not better on her watch. off the threat from UKIP, but actually she is doing the Nor has the Home Secretary set out proper plans to opposite. The more she ramps up the rhetoric and deal with exploitation in the labour market and illegal widens the gap between it and reality, the more she immigration. I hope that she will now introduce the increases public concern and the more sceptical people powers that we put forward for borders enforcement become. This is no time for an arms race on immigration staff in the Bill last year. I also hope that there will be rhetoric. Instead, we need fair and sensible policies that action to close the loopholes on student visitor visas, will make things better, not worse. and further action to deal with the fewer illegal migrants Let me raise one final immigration issue with the deported, more absconding at the border and fewer Home Secretary. We agree with the sentiment in the cases of illegal migrants reported to the Home Office Queen’s Speech that those who come here should contribute, simply not being followed up. but what about those who have already contributed to this country by risking their lives and those of their Kelvin Hopkins: I strongly agree with what my right families for our troops and our nation, and many of hon. Friend is saying, but does she not accept that we those are still doing so? What about the Afghan interpreters must argue the case for a substantial increase in staffing who have supported our troops and face threats from to deal with all those matters? the Taliban as our troops pull out? When we left Iraq, 179 Debate on the Address9 MAY 2013 Debate on the Address 180 we recognised the debt we owed those interpreters. The justice system. It cannot be isolated in a silo from the Americans, the Australians and the New Zealanders are other parts of the criminal justice system, such as the all recognising their obligations to the interpreters. Surely police, the courts, the probation service, the drug and she should show a similar sense of honour and add to alcohol abuse programmes and the education, training the Queen’s Speech a settlement scheme for the Afghan and diversionary activities that run alongside them. interpreters, to whom we and our troops owe so much? The value of prison for society, law-abiding and We will support her if she does. criminal alike, should be that it takes in offenders and This is a Queen’s Speech that fails to provide the releases them reformed and rehabilitated so that they answers on law and order. It fails to provide the answers can return whence they came as different and better we need on immigration. It fails to provide help for people, ready to participate as responsible citizens, looking family living standards. It fails to provide the boost our after their dependants, free from drug use, better qualified, flatlining economy so badly needs. Once all the pomp earning a living, paying their way and going straight. and ceremony has passed, the reality of the Queen’s That is no doubt the unattainable ideal to be placed Speech is looking pretty thin. The Home Secretary, like beside the hope of the crime-free society, but just because the Prime Minister and the Chancellor, talks tough but we cannot have total success does not mean that we does not deliver. As the hon. Member for Rochester and should not strive to do better than we are doing now. I Strood (Mark Reckless) said, she therefore look forward to seeing the detail of the “talks the talk but does not walk the walk.” Government’s proposals in relation to rehabilitation. On the Opposition side, we could not agree more. Prison, for most of those who end up inside, is evidence of failure: the offender has failed to look after himself, his family and those he cares for; he has failed 12.14 pm to get an education, a job and to maintain his physical Sir Edward Garnier (Harborough) (Con): Unsurprisingly, and mental well-being; and he has failed to understand, I rather disagree with the right hon. Member for or has simply ignored, the needs and rights of others. In Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper). failing in so many ways he has caused incalculable I think that the Queen’s Speech contained some very damage to those most close to him and to his immediate positive and interesting aspects, not least the proposals and more distant victims. But in sending him to prison that the Secretary of State for Justice spoke about and doing nothing with him save incarcerating him— earlier. The Queen’s Speech set out that statistically most offenders and prison inmates are male—are “Legislation will be introduced to reform the way in which we not also failing ourselves, our neighbours, our offenders are rehabilitated in England and Wales.” communities and our country? Prisons, properly understood For me, that is perhaps the most important part of the and properly directed, should be prisons with a purpose Queen’s Speech. I hope that the programme that the that serve the public interest. Government bring forward, and the Bill or Bills relating to rehabilitation, will produce real benefits for the public. Helen Goodman: The hon. and learned Gentleman makes a very reasonable point when he says that we I will just add—this follows a couple of newspaper should look at the criminal justice system as a whole, reports over the past few days—that the money available and the interactions between the institutions have a big for spending on rehabilitation is, I suspect, being unfairly impact on the effectiveness of the system, but does he reduced by the ordering of costs out of central funds not understand that it is precisely for that reason that for the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to the proposal to privatise the probation service and Animals. When it fails successfully to prosecute offenders, extend payment by results without having completed sometimes it has to pay its own costs and sometimes it the pilots is so risky, because the institutions will be does not, but invariably the successful defendant’s costs competing against each other, rather than trying to come out of central funds. I hope that the Front-Bench promote a good criminal justice system for society as a team will look carefully at their resources to ensure that whole? central funds are not used—I presume that “central funds” means Ministry of Justice or Home Office Sir Edward Garnier: I am glad that the Government money—to bail out private prosecutors when they fail are taking a risk, but it is not an irresponsible risk. The to bring their prosecutions home. outcome that we are looking for is rehabilitation. The Let me revert to the wider subject of rehabilitation probation service should not simply be an employment and place it within the context of the criminal justice system; it should be a system more widely looked at that system as a whole. It strikes me that the criminal justice takes prisoners and rehabilitates them so that they can system is a process, not an event. Our prisons are part of re-engage in society. If the Government’s proposals that process and, for all but the very few prisoners who work—this is not a new idea; the Conservative party will live out their lives in custody, they are places of has been thinking about it for many years—they should temporary accommodation into which and from which be welcomed. Of course there will be doubt from the the “community”, “society”, the “outside”—call it what trade unions and from the Labour party, which are we will—sends and takes them back. For most of those more state-centric organisations than we are, but for who are sentenced to prison, custody is not the end of goodness’ sake let us give it a try. The current system is the journey but a part of it. not working. If the Government are to be believed, as Conversely, for many of us—those of us on the they should be in this regard, the Opposition should be outside—who have no experience of the criminal justice a little less wary of this exciting new venture, because system and who have never been into a prison or met the benefits of it working are worth striving for. anyone who has been sentenced to a term of custody, At the moment, we have overcrowded prisons that prison is society’s final answer. That is wrong: prison is can do no more than lock up for the period of their itself a process within the wider process of the criminal sentence the violent, the dishonest, the mentally ill, the 181 Debate on the Address9 MAY 2013 Debate on the Address 182

[Sir Edward Garnier] minority of prisoners are released at some point, and it is in our interest to prevent them from returning to a life addicted substance abusers, the illiterate, the innumerate of crime. As the Prison Reform Trust has written, and the socially inept. It can do no more than warehouse “Prisons should be places that hold securely, and make every human beings for no other purpose than keeping them effort to rehabilitate, serious and dangerous offenders. The skills off the streets and preventing them from reoffending and focus of those who run them should be wholly directed while inside. That is not a wrong or improper purpose—it towards that aim, in the interests of public safety.” is a very good reason to send an offender to prison—but If one thing stands out from any sensible examination on its own it is an insufficient and unimaginative purpose, of the prison system, it is that this second pillar is and without more it is a huge waste of public money. If unstable, leaving not just room for improvement but we do no more than house and release offenders and potential for danger. It is, furthermore, wasting vast fail to carry out the essential work of helping them to sums of public money. The cost of keeping a criminal in find somewhere to live, to find a job, to stay off drugs jail must now be well over £50,000 a year, and for and to return to their families and look after their younger, teenage offenders I would not be surprised if dependants, we will fail again and again, and reinforce the cost were well over £150,000 a year. That does not that failure. take into account the cost of fostering the children of prisoners while their parents are away. We have a choice. We can continue to reinforce that Stereotypically, any focus on rehabilitation is labelled failure or we can think hard about why we are failing as soft, but an intelligent analysis of the prison system the victims of crime and those we send to prison, as well must surely conclude that regardless of the well-being as the wider taxpaying public, and do something about of offenders, their successful rehabilitation benefits the it. We can continue to put large cohorts of people into public purse, enhances public safety, and is in the public an overcrowded prison estate and send the same cohorts interest. I recognise that the need to reduce reoffending of people back out again to commit more, and often must be accompanied by the need to foster a public worse, crimes, or we can try to change things for the understanding that reform and rehabilitation of offenders better—better for the taxpayer, better for the victims of is in their interest and a public good—a necessity not crime, better for the public at large, and better even for entirely obvious at first glance. As a former Lord Chief the criminal. Justice, Lord Phillips, explained, Prisons need walls to deny criminals their liberty, to “Some newspapers appear to have an agenda which is to keep them off our streets and to stop them committing persuade the public that judges are soft on crime, that no prison further crimes while serving their sentences, as well as to sentence is long enough and that a sentence which does not prevent them from escaping and to keep them safe from involve imprisonment is no sentence at all. The only purposes of sentencing which they recognise are punishment and deterrence— those on the outside who would do them harm. But rehabilitation does not enter the picture…We need to get across those walls also need windows through which society the message that rehabilitation of offenders makes life better not can see in and know what is being done inside in its just for them but for the rest of us.” name and through which the offenders can see out and The Government are now pushing that agenda, and I realise that a life of hope and purpose awaits them and welcome that. It is clear that there are arguments worth is worth striving for. This is the era that cannot keep a making and that now is not too early to do so. secret and where no confidence is respected, and yet there remains a secret world of which the public know little or nothing: the world inside our prisons. It is time 12.26 pm to put those windows in those walls. Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): I would like to No doubt the Government’s plans for rehabilitation concentrate on immigration issues and to start with will not entirely cure the problem of reoffending, but what immigrants bring to the United Kingdom. If we this is a Conservative answer that is positive, forward- went by what is said by UKIP and in tabloid headlines, thinking and practical, and at least worth thinking we would assume that it is all chaos and problems, but about. The status quo is not an option. Some years ago, we should stop and think. There is a reason why Slough, the then chief inspector of prisons, Anne Owers, wrote: one of the most diverse towns in the country, is the third most productive town in the country. Migrants are “There is a link between humanity and effectiveness.” entrepreneurial, brave and risk-taking. They are prepared to move their families thousands of miles to learn a new Public safety, in her view, hinges on having an effective language and to build a better future for themselves and process, “And this isn’t one”. She was right then and she their children. That has real benefits for Britain, and we is right now. The prison system in England and Wales is should not forget that. I start from an unashamed view creaking. The Prison Service, in its various guises, is that Britain’s openness to migration is one of our great confused, and the public are increasingly concerned. strengths. The many cultures in our country have played Traditionally, correctional policies have focused less on a key role in making us a world leader in cultural and correcting and more on punishment and temporary creative industries. The panicked reaction of trying to prevention. Keeping offenders incarcerated and thus out-UKIP UKIP was wrong. protecting society from their crimes and deterring them from committing them again and others from starting I sometimes do not understand why my party constantly on a life of crime, is the job, or one of the jobs, of the keeps saying that we got it wrong on immigration, prisons, and it is not an easy one. However, the Government because I think that we got it mostly right. We stopped are now attempting to deal with the issue. a test on arranged marriages that was introduced by the primary purpose rule. We stopped the huge delays for Another central purpose of custody, and a more husbands and wives overseas. When we were elected in challenging one, must be to reduce, even if we cannot 1997, asylum cases were taking years to determine. We totally prevent, levels of reoffending. All but a tiny ended that situation, and we moved it to months. 183 Debate on the Address9 MAY 2013 Debate on the Address 184

Dr Huppert: I agreed with the hon. Lady on almost people’s immigration status. Frankly, that will open the everything until she said that the previous Government door to more discrimination: people who do not look stopped asylum cases taking years to process. She will or sound British, or who cannot provide documents be well aware that there has been a backlog of hundreds that the non-immigration authorities understand in order of thousands of asylum cases that have taken very to prove their status, are likely to face particular difficulties. many years, including throughout the time of the previous Anyone who looks or sounds like they are from abroad Government, and the situation has still not been fully is likely to be targeted. That is not fair or right, and it is rectified. Does she accept that her party’s Government not an appropriate way for us to operate in the UK. did not in fact stop asylum cases taking years? We know that landlords and GPs will not be able to understand the bits of paper, because employers who, Fiona Mactaggart: The hon. Gentleman does not rightly, already have a responsibility are unable to find have the history of going into the way that the Home out whether their employees are properly qualified. In a Office works that I have. What happened was that initial significant number of cases in my constituency, that is determinations of asylum cases had been taking years because the papers that prove status are stuck in the and years. In ’97, there were thousands of cases that Home Office, which is not making a decision on them. I nobody had made any kind of decision on, and the am not sure how a landlord is supposed to be able to initial determinations were made quickly. He is right prove to their own satisfaction whether someone is that there was a backlog of a number of cases that had qualified or not. been lurking in an underground bunker. In fact, when In order to operate the proposal sensibly, it will we were first elected, the underground bunker contained probably require a register of landlords, which I would thousands of cases that had not been subject to any enthusiastically accept, because I am concerned about a decisions at all, and the bunker was full of poison gas. number of issues with regard to private landlords. At The way in which the Home Office administers cases is present, private landlords in Slough habitually say that ludicrous and I will address the issue later. they do not want tenants on housing benefit, but in my I believe that the previous Government did get some view that is discriminatory: it discriminates against things wrong on immigration. We allowed the development disabled people, who are substantially more likely than of bogus colleges which conned students and allowed anybody else to depend on housing benefit. Lawyers people to study here who should not have qualified to have told me that it would be impossible to bring a case do so. We failed most in not sufficiently transforming of disability discrimination, partly because landlords the administration of immigration that we inherited are not big institutions and because of the costs involved. from the Conservative Government. We did not do If we increase the number of people whom landlords enough to make the system work well. We started that have a duty to discriminate against, we will create a work—we introduced e-borders and we proposed identity society in which the excluded will number not just those cards—but we inherited a mess and the Home Office with a suspect immigration status, but those with a did not sufficiently get it sorted. perfectly secure immigration status. Today’s editorial headline in The Times says that the Rather than legislating in that way, I advise the Government are right to prioritise delivery. Although Government to get with the programme of making the The Times appears to be giving the Government an alibi system work—but that is not what they are doing. On for not proposing enough legislation in the Queen’s illegal employment, as my right hon. Friend the Member Speech, immigration is a field in which they have failed for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper) to prioritise delivery, which is key to ensuring that our has said, 800 fewer businesses have been fined in the immigration system that works. From where does past year for employing illegal workers. That figure is immigration need to operate? down from 2,097 in 2010 and 1,215 in 2012. The rhetoric is outperforming activity. Ms Abbott: On the past Labour Government’s record, The same is true of the rhetoric on human trafficking. I gently tell my hon. Friend that I had a few asylum The Prime Minister has said that he wants us to be the cases that took longer than two months to resolve. Does leading country in dealing with human trafficking, yet she agree, however, that one of the most pernicious we heard compelling testimony from Kalayaan just a myths propagated is that the previous Labour Government couple of days ago about how the abolition of the had an open-door policy on immigration? There was no overseas domestic workers visa is increasing the oppression open-door policy and it is misleading for people to of overseas domestic workers in private households. continue to repeat that. The reach of the Gangmasters Licensing Authority should be spread far more effectively, so that instead of Fiona Mactaggart: My hon. Friend is right. In order being criticised by the International Labour Organisation, to get effective administration of immigration in the as is currently the case, we can show ourselves to be UK, we need to work out where it can best operate, and leaders in preventing human trafficking and the exploitation in my opinion that is at our borders. We are an island, of workers. which provides an opportunity for a primary mechanism of border-based immigration control. The person who put this case most tellingly was Paul Houston, whose daughter was killed in a hit-and-run It is not possible to operate effective and fair internal incident that became a cause célèbre for those who want immigration control without identity cards, which is to scrap the human rights of foreign nationals, when he why in 2003 I changed my position from hostility towards said: them to being in favour of biometric ID cards. The “I’m tired of the Borders Agency blaming its failings on Government’s proposed new mechanism seems to be human rights instead of just doing its job. Getting landlords to dependent on not just internal immigration control, but check the status of tenants will lead to suspicion that anyone who wholly privatised immigration controls, with GPs and isn’t white or who has a foreign-sounding name must be here landlords—any old person—responsible for checking illegally.” 185 Debate on the Address9 MAY 2013 Debate on the Address 186

[Fiona Mactaggart] That is exactly the kind of person whom the Home Secretary’s proposals are designed to target, unless we Let us consider the proportionality of the proposed are given a commitment that people whose only offence deportation and human rights legislation. At present, relates to their immigration status will not be included. a person sentenced to a year’s imprisonment is also My second constituent who has an immigration offence expected—there is a presumption—to be deported. It is is unsure whether he will be able to stay with his wife more usual for the Home Office to win rather than lose and children. The eldest child is 10 years old and has an appeal against such a case. Of the 819 deportation applied for British citizenship, as is that child’s right. appeals to the first tier tribunal in the year April 2011 to The risk is that we are following the agenda of the March 2012, 67%—two thirds—were dismissed and tabloids, rather than the agenda of humanity.An alternative 33% allowed. Very few appeals go to the upper courts approach would be to say that we, as the country that and the judges have to decide them according to law, helped to write the European convention on human which includes the European convention on human rights, are proud of our human rights record and will rights as the European Court of Human Rights and the uphold it. We should trust judges to make the decisions British courts have decided it, and not the Home Secretary’s on individual cases, rather than write big rules to personal views on it. discriminate against people. We should say that we do The Prime Minister has said that not believe in privatising our immigration administration, “from here on I want a family test applied to all domestic policy. but that it is time to make the Home Office’s administration If it hurts families, if it undermines commitment, if it tramples of immigration operate better and do what it says on over the values that keep people together, or stops families from the tin. If we did all those things, this would be a more being together, then we shouldn’t do it.” fair, just and equal country, which is what we should all However, that is precisely what the deportation proposals aim for. and those for the diminution of human rights risk doing. I want to give examples of two cases in my 12.42 pm constituency in order to try to persuade the Minister Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): It is a great who will respond to the debate to give a commitment pleasure to be called in this debate on the Queen’s that those people whose sentence is only in relation to Speech. It is also a pleasure to follow the hon. Member immigration offences should not be caught by the for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart). I usually agree with Government’s proposals. much of what she says and on this occasion I agreed My first constituent is an African man who has lived with large chunks of it. I will not go through every in the UK for nearly 14 years. He came as a student, constituent in my area who has had to wait years for formed a relationship and had a son who was born here decisions to be made; the hon. Member for Hackney in 2003. That relationship broke down, but he is in North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) made the frequent and close contact with his son and on good point for me. terms with his ex-partner about that contact. He was I was generally very pleased with yesterday’s Queen’s refused re-entry after a visit to his home country because Speech. It contained a lot of good measures that the he was not continuing to study and was removed Liberal Democrats are proud to have championed for a immediately. He returned with another passport and long time. There was excellent news that will help us to worked on false documents, incidentally for a well-known create a stronger economy and a fairer society. children’s charity.He was arrested for using false documents to come back to the UK and to try to get permission to Aspiring businesses will be boosted by the legislation remain, and was sentenced to 15 months’ imprisonment. on the national insurance employment allowance of In the meantime, he had formed a new relationship with £2,000. That is a progressive way of helping businesses a British citizen who was born in Devon and worked at out, giving them a springboard for growth and, critically, a special school. She was close to her parents and her encouraging them to hire staff. There are proposals to two very elderly grandmothers. She stuck by him while improve the intellectual property system. The Hargreaves he was in prison and they got married in August 2010 proposals suggested that European Union unitary patents after his release. They now have an 18-month-old child. could lead to £2.1 billion in growth. That will be welcomed by a lot of the high-tech businesses in my constituency, My constituent applied to revoke the deportation although we must not go down the dangerous route of order that was made after his sentence and won his software patents. The Energy Bill, which will continue appeal in summer 2012 on article 8 grounds. Eventually, its passage, will provide green jobs. The High Speed 2 he was given the six months’ leave that the UKBA has Bill will generate about 100,000 jobs. As we have heard, decided to give in such circumstances. He will have to the £10,000 income tax threshold will lift millions of apply again and pay Home Office fees for a further poorly paid people out of income tax and give money extension and has no idea when he might be able to get back to others that can be spent to grow the economy. some security. I received an e-mail from his wife yesterday, On fairness, the care Bill will put an end to vulnerable which said that he members of society having to sell their homes to pay for “has returned to work, he now works there full time in the role of care costs in their lifetime. There will also be a new security and youth worker. He continues to see his son fortnightly flat-rate state pension, help for carers and the continuation and our son has become familiar with the routine of” of the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill. I hope that his father through cross-party agreement, that Bill will include the “taking him to a childminder every morning.” proposal to allow humanist weddings to take place in She wrote that he England and Wales, as they do in Scotland. “is a very important part of my family and we stay with my In government, we have fought for and will continue parents regularly, as well as regular visits with my extended family to fight for a stronger economy and a fairer society, but and he will be an usher at my sisters wedding in two weeks time.” I will focus on the home affairs and justice measures in 187 Debate on the Address9 MAY 2013 Debate on the Address 188 the Queen’s Speech. I will start with the contentious those from inside the European Union. The final exit issue of immigration, on which I largely agree with the checks were removed by the previous Government in hon. Member for Slough. This country benefits massively 1998. from immigration. I am pleased to say that very clearly. If we were to take away the immigrants from my Dr Huppert: I thank the Minister for his detailed constituency, it would be disastrous. The hospital could clarification and for being so well briefed. The past two not function without people who have come from overseas, Governments removed one set of exit checks each. We universities and high-tech businesses would suffer massively, need to have them back so that we know who is leaving. and the quality of society would be massively diminished. We must ensure that in the drive to correct our We should be delighted that we have successful immigration. systems, we do not bring in measures that stifle our Immigrants come to this country and make a huge success or international standing. It is fantastic that we contribution. I am very proud to support that. attract students from around the world. They come here However, our system does not work well. Under this and pay money, making this a fantastic export business. Government, the previous Government and, I dare say, Some of them stay and contribute to our economy. the Government before that, our border controls have Others leave and set up businesses or get elected in their simply not been good enough and we have not been able own country, and have a good relationship with our to keep track of people. We definitely want to ensure country. We should be proud of that. That is a huge that the people who should be able to come into this factor in my constituency and many others. We must country can get in easily and quickly. They should not not drive those people out when we correctly try to stop have a struggle with bureaucracy or wait months for those who are abusing the system and who come here decisions, whether they are a wealthy businessman or falsely. We need steps that get it right in both ways. somebody seeking asylum. Everybody deserves a prompt, The demise of the Border Agency was somewhat correct decision. That is not what has happened. rushed. We must ensure that there is not just a change of Improvements are being made and we will see whether name, but a change of practice. The era of decade after they go far enough. It should be easy for talented decade of backlogs and of people not getting answers business people, academics, researchers and genuine promptly must finally end. We all want to see that; no asylum claimants to come here legitimately. There have one in any part of the House would like those backlogs been far too many problems with that. to continue to grow or even to exist at all, and we must I have a constituent who had been sentenced to death have a system that will end them. I hope the Government in Iran for converting to Christianity. He applied for will manage that, but it will be a tough task. asylum under the previous Government and was rejected because, although he had a copy of the death sentence, Ms Abbott: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the it was deemed that there was not enough evidence that inordinate delays and backlogs in the immigration system he would be at risk if he went back. Most people who have two malign effects? First, they make it difficult for are asking for asylum do not have a copy of a death those with the type of talent, expertise and entrepreneurship sentence. That decision has been corrected and he is that he describes to have their cases dealt with swiftly. living in Cambridge and is very active there. The Home Secondly, they encourage abuse, because many third-rate, Office has been very helpful to members of his family. dodgy immigration advisers end up giving their clients We have to fix the system. I want exit checks to be advice just to play for time. reinstated. That is a long-standing Liberal Democrat position. If we do not know who is leaving, we do not Dr Huppert: The hon. Lady is absolutely right and I know who is still in the country. That causes frustration agree with everything she said. Delays cause huge harm, because there are lots of figures that suggest that people and she is right to pick on a number of the advisers and are still in this country who should not be, when in fact immigration lawyers who help out. A huge number of they left many years ago. A lot of the figures on student reputable lawyers do a fantastic job, but all of us who migration include people who have left the country or deal with a significant amount of immigration casework who did not come here in the first place. see shocking cases of people who should not be allowed to practise as they do, and who are extorting the vulnerable Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): I agree with the hon. in a deeply unfair way. It is a huge problem that is cruel Gentleman. The previous Government’s abandonment to those involved, and we must take action. of exit checks has led to the appalling situation whereby Much of what we need to do can be achieved without we cannot tell who is in the country. I would certainly legislation. Some areas, however, need legislation and I welcome it if they were put back in. look forward to proposals in the immigration Bill, which I hope will contain good provisions and send the Fiona Mactaggart: It was in 1994. signal that we can do the right thing. I know the Minister for Policing and Justice agreed with this when Dr Huppert: I thank the hon. Gentleman. I think that he was Immigration Minister, but there are, for example, it was the Government before last who got rid of exit specific issues about the status of children born outside checks, but they certainly were not restored by the last the UK to unmarried British fathers before 2006, and to Government. I believe that they are in the process of married British mothers before 1983. These are slightly being restored by this Government. I look forward to odd cases because those people are not entitled to clarification from the former Immigration Minister. citizenship, although they are if they were born to unmarried British fathers after 2006, or earlier in the The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Damian case of the mother. I hope that anomaly—I think that Green): There were two sets of exit checks: one for those was the word the Minister used—will now be corrected. from outside the European Union and another for I also hope that a number of other proposals will be 189 Debate on the Address9 MAY 2013 Debate on the Address 190

[Dr Huppert] admissions in England for dog bites and attacks, not counting those who were treated in A and E and sent included in the legislation. My hon. Friend the Member home, or the many leaflet deliverers and canvassers who for Brent Central (Sarah Teather) pointed out that received just a small bite. The new measures will encourage asylum support rates should be looked at each year, and responsible dog ownership, and I am particularly pleased I hope that will find its way into the Bill if legislation is to see the category covering attacks on guide dogs. I required. spent time with Guide Dogs for the Blind, and I was led The idea of landlords and employers having a role is blindfolded around my constituency by a guide dog, interesting. For employers the issue is clear, but we need which was an amazing experience that I recommend to stronger controls on those who knowingly hire people all Members—I see some have had the same experience. who are not allowed to work. We also need a system There have been a huge number of attacks on guide that makes it easier for employers. I have seen cases dogs, which are particularly damaging because of the where the UK Border Agency has given employers effect on the person involved and because guide dogs unhelpful or inaccurate information about people’s right are trained to look after their owner, not turn and fight to work. Employers cannot be expected to understand off the other dog. There are awful cases of a guide dog all the details of the system—I do not think any hon. leading its owner away while being savaged and either Member in the Chamber would claim to understand killed or seriously harmed, and I am therefore pleased every nuance of it, although I am prepared to be to see protection for assistance dogs included under corrected—and we must have a simple, clear system. If clause 98, meaning that an attack on a guide dog will landlords are also to have such a responsibility, they too count similarly to that on a person. need such a system. I do not mind if a landlord has to Rehabilitation has been a long-term Liberal Democrat enter a passport number and name on a computer and policy and an issue that we keep discussing. The current gets an answer—I can live with that—but if they all are jail system simply does not work and there are people expected to become experts in immigration law, we who have been in jail but who come out and go back in should be aware that that simply will not happen. I look again, which none of us wants to see. At times, we have forward to seeing how the system will work. seen a bidding war between political parties and areas of the press on who can sound tougher about locking I am delighted that the draft Anti-social Behaviour people up for longer. The goal should be to ensure we Bill is ready for consideration, and I am pleased that do not have offences, not to punish people as toughly as large parts of it have received pre-legislative scrutiny. we can. That is an excellent pattern, and I hope more Bills will go through such scrutiny, and that future Governments Jail is expensive. It costs £40,000 to put a person in will follow the advice, which is useful to ensure good, prison for less than 12 months, and many of those will rather than rushed, decisions. We must deal with antisocial reoffend. The situation is even worse for women offenders, behaviour, which is a blight on many communities. I do huge numbers of whom are jailed for reoffending. Frankly, not think that antisocial behaviour orders worked; they there are questions about how many women offenders felt slow, bureaucratic, ineffective, and we know that should be in jail—I think it should be a far smaller many young people treated them almost as a badge of number than it currently is. Between 2000 and 2010, the honour. A huge proportion—more than half, I think—were female prison population rose by 27%. breached. The system simply did not work and was part There is firm evidence that measures such as restorative of an effort to sound tough on antisocial behaviour. I justice and community sentencing are far more effective hope that the proposals in the Anti-social Behaviour than costly, short-term prison sentences, and that is the Bill will work, and I will be disappointed if it turns out right way to go. It is not about being tough on crime but that they are just another example of people trying to about stopping crimes from happening, and that is what sound tough. However, I am hopeful that the orders we should see. The continued progress of the rehabilitation and injunctions it contains will be more effective and revolution will encourage probation services to keep produce more effective community remedies. reoffending rates down and shift the focus from being tough on crimes that have already happened to ensuring I will not go through the Bill in detail, but I have one they do not happen in the first place. concern about the naming and shaming of offenders Those are the home affairs and justice Bills in the under 18, which I think should be done only as a very Queen’s Speech, but I wish to touch on one that I am last resort, particularly now that so much information is pleased was not included—the draft Communications available on line. The record of a 14-year-old who is Data Bill. This proposed legislation has an interesting publicly named online will be available when they are history. Last year, the Home Office thought it was ready 18, 24, 34 or 44, and we run the risk of stigmatising for to be part of a full Bill, but I am delighted that my right ever young people—who made errors and should not hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister said, “No, I am have done what they did—in a way that would not have not sure that it’s ready. Pre-legislative scrutiny needs to happened 20 or 30 years ago. That was discussed by the consider it and pull apart the details to see whether it is Home Affairs Committee during pre-legislative scrutiny, fit for purpose.” I served for a long time on the Joint and I am pleased at the Government’s indication that Committee that considered that Bill carefully—it was, I such a measure should be used only as a last resort. I think, the most detailed piece of pre-legislative scrutiny hope the Minister will clarify that although one section ever done in this House—and concluded that it was not of the law on naming is being disapplied, clear guidance ready at all. Although there was a case, as there always will be given that that should be done only rarely. is, for stronger measures, it was nowhere near made. I was happy about the criminalisation of forced marriage, The Committee’s report was quite damning and stated which strikes me as absolutely right and was recommended that by the Home Affairs Committee, as well as the work “the draft Bill pays insufficient attention to the duty to respect the on dangerous dogs. In 2011, there were 6,500 hospital right to privacy, and goes much further than it need or should”. 191 Debate on the Address9 MAY 2013 Debate on the Address 192

That was a unanimous, cross-party, cross-House Committee. The Queen’s Speech contains much to be glad of, and The report described some of the information coming I am pleased that many measures are not in it. However, from the Home Office as being, in one case, “fanciful I am sorry that Australian influences seem to have and misleading”, and said that evidence for the problem killed off proposals on plain packaging, minimal pricing it was trying to solve was misleading and unhelpful. and the regulation of lobbying. I am sure they are The head of MI5 said that evidence presented on the separate issues, but there is very much to be proud of, problem relied on “pretty heroic assumptions”. It also and I look forward to debating the measures over the highlighted that some of the proposals could reduce the coming year. amount of communications data available in the United Kingdom. It is a strongly written report and well worth Several hon. Members rose— reading. I was therefore delighted that, after the report, and Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. We after the Home Office did not address the fundamentals—it have a lot of hon. Members to get in. I would be did not manage to show how the 500,000 pieces of data grateful if we could have speeches of between 12 and that have been collected already were used, or to provide 14 minutes. I do not want to put a time limit on evidence of the benefits and other things—my right speeches, but if we can try and use some common sense, hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister announced that hopefully we will get there. the proposals would not go ahead. I am delighted with that decision. 1.3 pm I am pleased Her Majesty was clear that most of communications data proposals would not happen. The Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): The Queen’s Home Secretary had a different interpretation, but Her speech should not have been written on vellum; it is so Majesty said that the proposal would address only the thin that it should have been written on onion skin. problem of matching internet protocol addresses—I am Being slim and having little content might not be bad delighted Her Majesty the Queen managed to say that, things in themselves. When Governments are confused which I suspect is a first. The Government will not pass and conflicted, it is sometimes better to do nothing legislation allowing a Home Secretary to ensure that rather than frame incoherent legislation. Unfortunately, records are kept of every website that people visit. They the legislation framed in the Queen’s Speech does not will not take an internal lead forcing internet service meet that test—much of it is incoherent. One cannot providers to monitor and collect information on what help asking how easily the Government’s commitment everyone does on Facebook, Google, Skype, Twitter or to supporting people who have saved for their retirement any other platform. We should not set a standard for sits with a record of quantitative easing that has eroded the world by saying that such information can be collected savings income through reduced interest rates and reduced as it passes through our networks. We will not spend annuity rates. more than £1 billion—£1.8 billion was the original I cannot help but wonder how a Bill to reduce the figure, but we suspected that it would increase—snooping burden of excessive regulation on business will sit with on our own citizens. That will not happen under this the immigration Bill, which appears to be the flagship Government. Bill of the Queen’s Speech. The immigration Bill will I am aware that the Home Secretary would like to mean that businesses and landlords will be fined and implement that proposal, but she will not get her way. turned into enforcement agencies of the UK Border We have heard that the Labour party would have liked Agency and the Home Office. The Government have that, too. A former Labour Home Secretary said on proudly preached the one in, one out principle, but, “Daily Politics” that Labour would have gone ahead notably, the Home Secretary has so far failed to identify with the proposal, and the shadow Home Secretary has any corresponding regulations for that regulatory burden. said that Labour would go ahead with a communications The Home Secretary spoke of how she would dispose data Bill. She said that Labour would go ahead with of immigrants with criminal records. Criminal checks collecting web log information and intercepting information are a vexed issue in the Home Office. In March, I wrote on what people do on Facebook and Google. She is not a letter on behalf of a constituent—I will call him Mr S. in the Chamber, but if any of the shadow team would I was advised in December 2011 that Mr S would be like to correct my interpretation of what she said, they granted leave to remain, subject to security checks. I wrote: are welcome to do so. The Liberal Democrats will stand “A further fifteen months has now passed however and” firm; our position is supported by many Back Benchers and Front Benchers of the other parties in the House. Mr S Safeguards are needed. For example, far too many “has still not received a final decision on his case. In your bodies have access to the information. I was told off for response of September 2012 you acknowledged that due to the saying in an interview that the egg marketing board was delay in concluding” allowed access to communications data information. I Mr S’s had a letter saying that that was inaccurate. I apologise. “case, the original security checks were no longer valid and a new In fact, the Egg Marketing Inspectorate would be allowed set had been requested. You also advised that they are only valid such access. for a period of three months.” Evidence will be needed on IP resolution, but I I asked: believe legislation will not be needed. We need training “Please confirm that this second set of security checks has not on using the huge amount of data available, which is now also expired and that you now need to apply for a third set. what the Metropolitan Police Commissioner said was This would be completely unacceptable; however six months has most useful. When I asked him how he would spend now passed since your letter in September advising that the £1.8 billion, he spoke of training, more officers and second set of security checks had been requested”, better equipment. so that might be the case. 193 Debate on the Address9 MAY 2013 Debate on the Address 194

[Barry Gardiner] domestic violence whose child is a British citizen, and they propose to toughen the immigration rules! One In that case, the Home Office had already accepted could hardly do so. that somebody would be granted leave to remain, subject I want to honour your commitment to letting us to security checks being acceptable, but getting those move on, Mr Deputy Speaker, so I will stop talking checks has been impossible for Mr S. During that about immigration and move on to the final aspect of time—more than a year—he could have been functioning the Queen’s Speech that it would be remiss of me not to properly, employed in his community and earning, and address: the parts of the speech that were not there. getting on with his life, but he was absolutely unable to There was talk of the Energy Bill, a carry-over Bill that do so because of the incompetence of the Home Office. needs to be finished off. The reference to infrastructure If we are to have a system in which enforcement is in the Queen’s Speech is clearly part of that. The draft properly carried out and we get rid of people subject to Bill was published and we complained that it contained security checks, let us at least ensure that those checks no energy efficiency measures. We were told they would are conducted efficiently. be in the Bill. The Bill was published. It contained no I have great respect for much of what the hon. Member energy efficiency measures and we were told that they for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) says in the Chamber. would be introduced in Committee. In Committee, there However, I had to laugh when he said, “It would be fine were still no energy efficiency measures. We were told if an employer or landlord simply put details into a that they would be introduced later in Committee. By computer and got an answer.” Let me tell him what the the end of the Committee stage we were told that they MPs’ inquiry line and the regional account managers would come later still. I hope that they will appear later, are like. Regional account managers do not always meet on Report. I fear that they will appear later in the their response target of 10 working days. Responses are House of Lords, and that Members will have no often holding responses even when they come through. opportunity to scrutinise the key, essential bedrock of Sometimes, no response at all is received. Rarest of all is any energy policy for the next 40 years—energy efficiency. a conclusion to a case. It is an absolute travesty that the Government are I raised that problem with the MPs’ inquiry office. I seeking to use a carry-over Bill to deny Members the was advised that Helen McIntosh, who was formerly in opportunity to conduct proper legislative scrutiny in charge of that service, had been moved to other work. this Chamber. At that point, a rota of staff managed the service. It is a The Government have made a classic mistake when it constant problem that staff are rotated and moved to comes to energy policy. They have looked at energy other duties, leaving half-finished cases to be picked up policy in the way that a phlebotomist looks at an again only when the MP chases up the inquiry. In one organism, concerned only with the blood supply. Energy legacy case last year, we were given repeated assurances is the blood supply that keeps an economy working, but over a period of several years that the case would be they should look at it like a general practitioner would, concluded within deadline after deadline, all of which by looking that the health of the whole organism. The were not met. Finally, I had a personal commitment Government have singularly failed to do that. It is from Mark McEvoy to resolve the case by a certain essential that we see our energy policy as part of our date. When he did not do so I requested a meeting with economic policy and industrial strategy. That is why the him. Before that could be arranged, however, I was Government have failed to introduce proposals for the advised that he had been moved on to other responsibilities. second phase of carbon capture and storage. That is why their legislation to ensure that no decarbonisation The idea that one could put a prospective tenant’s target for 2030 can be brought into law before at least name and their Home Office reference number into a 2016, and maybe not after that, is a catastrophic failure. computer and get a response by return from the Home It fails to ensure that the relevant investment in low-carbon Office so that one could say, “That’s fine, you can take generation is incentivised. That is locking us, as the the flat next week,” is ridiculous. If hon. Members do Chancellor would have it, into high carbon, fossil fuel not understand that this will lead to discrimination in growth well into the future. It is ensuring that our the provision of services, they are making the cardinal industry, and the jobs and growth dependent on it, is political mistake of believing their own political propaganda. not being invested in at the moment. Let me turn to support for family life, something on There are many others who wish to participate in the which the Government say they pride themselves. A debate and for that reason I will conclude my remarks. constituent of mine, with a young baby who is a British It would have been of great benefit to see a food citizen, is estranged from her violent partner and has strategy Bill. It would also be nice to think that the been granted limited leave to remain for 30 months on a throwaway line at the end of the Queen’s Speech, which 120-month pathway to settlement. This single parent said that climate change would be on the agenda of the who has been subject to domestic violence will have to G8 summit after all, had some substance, but we will renew her application every 36 months and pay a fresh, have to wait and see. exorbitant fee that, if she is looking after her child, she cannot work to afford to pay. During this period of 1.16 pm 10 years, she can work but not claim any of the following public funds: income-based jobseeker’s allowance, Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con): attendance allowance, severe disablement allowance, carer’s It was a great Queen’s Speech. It was succinct and allowance, disability living allowance, income support, focused, and I hope that my speech follows suit. It is child tax credit, working tax credit, social fund payment, fantastic that we get the opportunity, during the debates child benefit, housing benefit, council tax benefit or on the Queen’s Speech, to have a free-ranging discussion. state pension credit. I thank the Government for supporting I want to cover four specific proposals in Her Majesty’s the family in the way that they do—a woman subject to speech, the first of which is High Speed 2. 195 Debate on the Address9 MAY 2013 Debate on the Address 196

My views on HS2 are clearly on the record, so I will Ms Abbott: Does the hon. Lady accept that there has not go into them now. However, I hope that the thoughts, never been a time when immigration was not discussed, feelings and concerns of my constituents will be taken whether in Parliament or the media? Every day for into account in the new consultation on compensation. years, there has been a story in the tabloid press. We I urge those on the Front Bench to consider seriously have had major immigration and nationality Bills in the merits of a property bond. The high-speed link will every Parliament. Furthermore, we know where over-heated be a very long time in coming. Unfortunately, too many rhetoric on immigration goes in a time of recession, and of my constituents are trapped in their homes and it is not a nice place. unable to move. It is not that their house prices have dropped in value—they cannot sell at any price. The Andrea Leadsom: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for advantage of a property bond, whereby the Government that comment, because it highlights precisely my point. underwrite any loss once the line is built, is that it would She is subliminally implying that this generates racism, enable them to get on with their normal lives in the and that has been the problem with the debate for the interim. I therefore urge the Government to consider past decade. Particularly under her Government, anybody this option seriously. who wanted to talk about the problems of uncontrolled immigration was somehow racist. I have just said that The Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill is immigration has been of huge benefit to this country—I vital. It is all about the quality of life of our voters in hope she was listening to that—but at the same time this great country. It is true to say that antisocial behaviour fairness is vital to the interests of this country. utterly destroys quality of life, whether it is violence, I will now address that fairness aspect, which is where bullying, littering or dangerous dogs. All too often, I think the Bill is incredibly important. It should ensure antisocial behaviour is carried out by kids who have had that those who have paid into the system benefit more the worst start in life. I have spoken many times on this than those who have not. This is not just a problem that subject in this Chamber. If we really want to solve concerns Britain; it also concerns Germany. The Fresh antisocial behaviour we have to focus on the earliest Start project, of which I am a founding member, recently years. In all of our rehabilitation and youth policies, we went to Berlin to talk to German politicians and businesses. need to focus on getting the very youngest a good start They feel that immigration has benefited the German in life, as this will mean that they do not join the economy, but that the fact that people can migrate there conveyor belt to antisocial behaviour and crime. We need for the sole purpose of claiming benefits is simply a revolution in support of the perinatal period. We need unfair and generates resentment. to work far earlier with those who are pregnant to help Constituents have said to me at surgeries that it is them deal with poor maternal mental health and, later, totally unfair that they, having potentially paid into the problems relating to poor attachment with their babies. Exchequer coffers for years, get so little back if they lose their job. The Fresh Start project has assessed what As I have said before in the Chamber, all of a baby’s happens on the continent. Many countries, including brain development takes place in the first two years of Germany and the Nordic countries, have a far more life. In the first year, it builds 1 million neural connections Bismarckian system of benefits payments, which means per second, while its entire lifelong emotional resilience—its that if someone who has paid into the system for years ability to deal with the things that life throws at us—is loses their job, they can, for a period, generate half of largely determined by the age of two. Anything we do their previous income while they get themselves back on later to rehabilitate offenders—for instance, to sort out their feet. The system in the UK is very different. speech and learning difficulties, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder or any of the problems that lead If we are to address the resentment over access to young people into a life of antisocial behaviour and benefits for migrants, and access to benefits for those crime—would be much better done through prevention who have paid in versus those who have not, we need to policies in the earliest years. I urge again the Front-Bench look seriously at reducing benefits for those who have team to work closely with the Department of Health never contributed either because they have never worked and the Department for Education to consider a revolution here or because they have recently migrated here. Those in the perinatal period. who have paid in, as well as school leavers who have not yet got a job but whose parents have paid in, should get I want to talk briefly about the immigration reform a higher level of benefit. That would be fair. In dealing Bill. The Opposition caused these problems. It was with the impact of immigration on voters’ quality of undoubtedly their failure to put in place proper transitional life, fairness is key. controls that caused the heartache, the sense of injustice Helen Goodman: The hon. Lady exaggerates her point and the resentment against immigration that we see about what she calls benefit tourism, but to say that she today. I agree with hon. Members who have said that has got it out of perspective is not to say that there are immigration has been good for this country. I absolutely not significant economic incentives for people to come accept that point. EU immigration has been good for to this country. Surely, immigration has more likely this country, but it has gone too far, too fast, without been fed by the fact that if someone comes here and any controls and, specifically, without a close focus on works hard for, say, three years and saves up £3,000, fairness for the existing population as against fairness they have enough to put down a deposit on a house in for those who would join this country. The right hon. an eastern European country, but not here. The disparity Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford in exchange rates means that the incentives are totally (Yvette Cooper) ranted that it was not the time to ramp different. up the rhetoric on immigration. I could not agree with her less. It is essential not just to talk about it, but to act Andrea Leadsom: I completely agree that the vast on it, and that is why the Bill is vital. bulk of people who come to this country come here to work, but equally the hon. Lady must agree that more 197 Debate on the Address9 MAY 2013 Debate on the Address 198

[Andrea Leadsom] by the oligopoly banks themselves. It is the most astonishing closed shop. However, I urge the Government to go than 40,000 EU immigrants are claiming child benefit further and require the new regulator to evaluate bank here for children who do not live in this country. If she account number portability properly. Seven-day switching wants to write that cheque herself, she can then claim is just more string and sellotape on an already broken that it is a trivial sum, but to my constituents, who are system. writing those cheques—they are the taxpayers—it is This is a positive and optimistic Queen’s Speech, utterly unacceptable and unfair. focusing on a small number of high priority Bills for Finally, I would like to deal with an excellent Bill this Government. I believe they will make strong introduced in the last Queen’s Speech. The purpose of improvements to the quality of life for our voters, which the Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill is to address is what it is all about. However, I hope that Back the institutional failure of the banking system. Recent Benchers such as myself will be able to contribute our scandals such as LIBOR rigging and swaps mis-selling ideas to making the legislative programme even stronger. have left voters utterly disgusted and contemptuous, not just of the culture of banking, but of the seeming immorality of those at the top. I know that the Government 1.30 pm have made great efforts, as has my hon. Friend the Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): It is a Member for Chichester (Mr Tyrie) through the Banking pleasure to follow the hon. Member for South Commission, to weed out the culprits and to put in Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom). I did not agree place reforms that will minimise the chance of a repeat with everything she said, but her remarks about banking of this nightmare. structures were made with great authority and knowledge, In my opinion, however, another reform is long overdue. I am sure—and the word “oligopoly” will serve us all We need to spark a revolution in bank competition to well when we do crosswords. facilitate the widest range and type of new financial Some comment has been made about how the Queen’s services entrants and to force the big oligopoly banks to Speech was not widely leaked, but having read it, we can reprioritise excellence in customer service. That revolution see that there was not a great deal to leak. It was a very is bank account number portability, which would make thin Queen’s Speech—the thinnest I have seen in my it possible for us all to switch banks instantly, taking 21 years in this place. I wonder why that is, because for our bank account numbers with us, and would remove the past months we have been treading water as Members the need to fill out endless new forms and re-establish of Parliament, dealing with insubstantial debates, new standing orders and regular payment instructions. Opposition days and lots of less than vital legislation. Bank account portability would have four key advantages. However, there are some good things in the speech; I First, it would lead to a revolution in competition and would like to refer to one of them. bring in new entrants. At the moment, 80% of small The legislation being introduced to allow sufferers of and medium-sized enterprises and personal current accounts mesothelioma whose employers cannot be traced to are banked with the big four oligopoly banks, so new gain compensation is a positive step forward. This competition—new entrants—is essential. Secondly, it group of people has been let down for far too long. It is would spark a revolution in customer service and product right that we should do everything possible for them to innovation in the payments sector. Thirdly, it would receive reparation, in many cases fairly urgently. However, impose a significant reduction in fraud resulting from it is rumoured that under the proposed scheme claimants systems failures due to the out-of-date legacy systems in will receive about 30% less than the standard for asbestos- the oligopoly banks. I ran an investment banks team related cancer, were it the subject of other litigation. during the ’90s when there was a massive merger of Two thirds of what someone is entitled to is probably banks, broker dealers and funds managers. Each of the better than nothing, but justice dictates that they should oligopoly banks has up to 20 legacy systems. It is get 100%, especially as I understand that the scheme is unbelievable. The recent failures of RBS-NatWest systems to be funded by the insurance sector, which of late has to make even simple payments highlighted that these hardly been on its knees financially. systems are held together with string and sellotape. We might compare the proposed scheme with that Fourthly, a means of resolution is terribly important which Plaid Cymru Members established in the mid-1970s in banking. If we have another financial crisis and bank during the tenure of the Labour Government. As a failure, rather than people lining the streets to take out price for our support to keep that Government going, their money, we need a means of instantly transferring we insisted on compensation for miners and quarrymen. bank accounts from a failed bank to a survivor bank. I am proud that we did that, but it involved a Government- Cyprus is a case in point. The British Government backed scheme. In essence, the Government are taking decided to underwrite customer deposits in London a positive step forward, but let us look at the detail, to branches of Cyprus banks, but we had no means to ensure that we do right by the people who are suffering. move customer bank accounts elsewhere. Bank account There is much to be regretted in this Queen’s Speech, number portability would solve the very significant such as compulsory price tendering for legal aid. I issue of resolution. declare an interest as a former solicitor who practised in I am delighted that the Financial Secretary to the legal aid cases and who also did legal aid-funded work Treasury is consulting on introducing a new payments at the Bar. I am not given to hyperbole often, and I do regulator in a Government amendment to the Financial not know whether hon. Members realise this, but the Services (Banking Reform) Bill. An independent regulator current proposals will mean the disappearance of thousands would deal with the big problems that the Payments of solicitors’ firms from the high street. These are firms Council and VocaLink—the two bodies governing and whose expertise we have always relied on, and they are providing the infrastructure for payments—are governed often family firms that do things gratis for people who 199 Debate on the Address9 MAY 2013 Debate on the Address 200 call in. They will be taken over by larger firms that are I would argue that I live in a nirvana in north Wales. not full of legally qualified people. There will be a [Interruption.] I see the shadow Minister, the right hon. devastating effect in some areas, especially in rural, Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson), laughing. He does not smaller towns, where firms will disappear overnight. live too far away. Where he lives is also quite a nice The reason is quite obvious: the Government’s proposals place, although not quite to the same degree as Dwyfor are a race to the bottom. The Government confidently Meirionnydd. However, let us not go down that route expect that any tender for work would have to be 17.5% just now. I obviously know my area intimately. I will be lower than current legal aid rates. However, legal aid perfectly honest: over the past few years I have had one rates have been pegged for the last eight or nine years or two complaints from individuals who have said, anyway, so lawyers who practise legal aid are not, in “Why are these people from eastern Europe working in truth, fat cats. There are one or two silks who do hotels?” They asked why such people are doing this or extremely well, but I can assure hon. Members that that. I told them why: because very often local people most people—both those at the Bar and solicitors who are not prepared to do that work. They are not prepared largely rely on legal aid work—will never retire with a to work the long or unfriendly hours. massive pension or be fat cats. To be honest, they may I can speak with some authority on this matter. A well end up as rather scroggy moggies. local college in Dolgellau has an excellent reputation for catering courses, among other things, yet none of its Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): Does the right hon. students is going into the local hotel industry. They are Gentleman agree that having only four firms for the just not interested. Instead, several well-meaning, hard- entire Dyfed Powys area would mean not only devastation working young people have come in from various eastern for the many family firms he has mentioned, but European countries to do that work. They are putting inaccessibility and a lack of choice for clients? in the hours and some of them, to their credit, are even learning Welsh. They are working hard and doing the Mr Llwyd: That is absolutely right. The Government’s stuff that local people do not want to do. I have yet to proposal will quite obviously mean that the client will see any evidence of a so-called benefits scrounger and have no choice. It will lead to a paralegal system, with have not come across the problem. In my view, benefits people coming out of the conurbations to try to deal tourism is a ridiculous concept. I see the hon. Member with tens of cases in one day, taking notes roughly and for South Northamptonshire grinning at that. We have then reporting back, and then eventually somebody will heard about the 40,000 people claiming when their turn up for the trial or whatever. That concerns me children are not even resident in the UK, and I understand greatly. The whole idea of a fixed fee for a trial or plea that point— worries me as well, because there will inevitably be problems. It is a race to the bottom. Fiona Mactaggart: That will not be dealt with by this There is a further important point to be made about legislation. the Welsh language provision we routinely have in Wales. Members might not know this—I have practised in Welsh courts myself—but any trial can be conducted Mr Llwyd: Perhaps not. through the medium of the Welsh language, whether a Much of the debate on immigration is dictated by the jury trial, a civil matter or a case in the magistrates drumbeat of the United Kingdom Independence party. court. That is as it should be. Welsh has equal status Why should we spend hours discussing this issue, just with English in Wales—again, as it should be. That because Farage and his bunch think that they are on a provision and the work that the Courts Service has roll? There was one council election in Wales last week. done over the last couple of decades will disappear It was on Ynys Môn—Anglesey—and UKIP stood in overnight. There will be a great deal of anxiety and every ward. It did not take a single seat, however. Plaid turmoil in Wales over that. I regret to say that if the Cymru took four times as many seats as Labour, and Government go ahead with this proposal, they will be the Conservatives failed to win even one. The Lib Dems, directly responsible for damaging the Welsh language God bless them, took one. and culture and the services available to people in rural and semi-rural areas. That will happen not just in Wales Andrea Leadsom: I want to make it clear that this but in England—although I am thinking in particular legislation has nothing to do with UKIP; it has everything about the problems of north and mid-Wales. to do with fairness for the people of this country who There are some Bills in the Queen’s Speech that will pay their taxes day in and day out and who do not see not enhance the UK’s international standing. Although why someone who has never contributed should come previously trailed, the fact that the 0.7% of GDP meant here and use our services. What does the right hon. for international development will not now be enshrined Gentleman have to say to that? in legislation is an unfortunate step backwards. Today we have largely been discussing the impact of Mr Llwyd: I heard the hon. Lady make that point in the immigration Bill. In parts, the proposed Bill is very her speech, and I did not agree with everything that she unfortunate. Let me explain why. We need to move away said. That was one of the points that I was unsure from scaremongering and put in place measures to about, and I am equally unsure about it now. We must protect domestic workers and prevent employers from look at the issue carefully, but we need to detoxify the undercutting the work force by paying less than the debate. We need to forget about UKIP, the Daily Mail minimum wage. We all know that the agencies are doing and the Daily Express, and get stuck in and have a that. However, all too often the Government use sensible, cool-headed, factually informed debate. We immigration as a scapegoat, in an attempt to distract us would do our constituents a great service if we were to from their failure to create enough meaningful jobs and adopt that approach. That is probably what the hon. secure economic recovery. Lady is saying and, to that extent, I agree with her. 201 Debate on the Address9 MAY 2013 Debate on the Address 202

Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con): Is the sector. I hope that they make a better job of it than they right hon. Gentleman saying that we should simply did of the Olympics; otherwise, we will have to get the forget about the cost of all that welfare? A lot of Army in to do it. taxpayers—hard-pressed, as we all are at the moment— I accept what the hon. Gentleman says; the third want us to think carefully about those costs, particularly sector—the voluntary sector—does an excellent job. He when the money is going out of this country to children and I recently visited a third sector institution up in who have never been here. Liverpool, Adelaide House, which is doing an excellent job. To the credit of the previous Government and this Mr Llwyd: If the hon. Lady had listened, she would one, it is being funded directly, and that is absolutely have heard me say that I agree with the hon. Member right. Yes, there is a role for the voluntary sector, and if for South Northamptonshire on this issue. I am not it is to expand into this area to do such work, I would saying we should forget about it—[Interruption.] No, I have fewer objections. However, I question its capability am not. I understand that money is short, and I did not and capacity to handle the capital risk involved. say that at all. The hon. Member for Ealing Central and I welcome the draft Wales Bill, as far as it goes. It will Acton (Angie Bray) has completely misunderstood what transfer powers over elections to the Welsh Government, I have said, but I do not think that anyone else has done introduce fixed five-year terms for the Assembly and so. I did not say that, but I am saying to her and to overturn the ban on dual candidacy for Welsh elections. everyone outside the House that we need to detoxify the I must, however, express my profound disappointment debate and sit down and discuss this issue in a clear-headed, that there was no slot in the Queen’s Speech for a full, proper manner. We must not dance to the UKIP tune at proper government of Wales Bill. The pressing need for any time, now or in future. such legislation is quite obvious. As I am sure hon. A number of pieces of proposed legislation in the Members will know, the Commission on Devolution in Queen’s Speech seem, at first glance, to be driven more Wales, chaired by Paul Silk, recently published its first by ideology than by common sense. I am particularly report, on the financial powers of the Welsh Assembly. interested in the rehabilitation revolution, as it is known. It received broad cross-party support. It recommended We heard earlier that the probation service had recently that the Welsh Government should have control over acquired a gold medal for the excellence of its service. minor taxes as well as job-creating levers and borrowing Now, however, we see evidence that those who have powers, so allowing the Welsh Government to raise and been in prison for 12 months or less are the cohort most invest money in Wales’s public services and infrastructure, likely to reoffend. That is something that we have all thereby improving the economy. The Silk report known for a long time, yet that cohort has never fallen recommended that those levers be devolved as soon as within the ambit of the probation service’s work. It is was practical. Lest we forget, this Government have little wonder, therefore, that those people reoffend, and been effectively treading water for the past nine months something needs to be done. Not a great deal is being or so, and have failed to bring forward any really done to rehabilitate those people in prison, and once important pieces of legislation. All things considered, they are out, they are left without any assistance at all. there is surely a case for a legislative slot for such an On that, I agree with the Government. important vehicle. We are already falling behind, and My solution would be simpler, however. It would be time is of the essence. to extend responsibility for those people to the probation In the absence of a new government of Wales Bill, we service. They are the experts. They have been described as a party have drawn up our own list of Bills that we today by the Secretary of State today as having “expertise would like to see debated. That includes Bills devolving and professionalism” and making “a vital contribution”. to the Welsh Government control over justice and policing, If that is so, why on earth do we have to bring in the transport and energy powers and job-search functions. privateers? Was G4S’s performance at the Olympics so We also believe that we should introduce what we brilliant that we now have to bring the company into describe as an economic fairness Bill. Central to these the probation system? proposals is our justice and policing (Wales) Bill, which would establish a separate legal jurisdiction for Wales, Nick de Bois: I am grateful to a fellow member of the to correct the anomaly that Wales is at present probably Justice Select Committee for giving way. He has just the only country in the world that has a legislature, but suggested that we try to have a sensible debate about no legal jurisdiction of its own to serve it. There is this matter. Focusing on privateers is completely erroneous. already a very substantial corpus juris establishing itself For example, he knows well the St Giles Trust, a registered in Wales that does not have a jurisdiction to serve it, charity that does superb work on reforming and and the need for one is now urgent. It is becoming more rehabilitating people. He must surely agree that this pressing month by month. must not become a debate about privatisation. Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): Speaking as a fellow Mr Llwyd: I often respect the views of the hon. MP representing Wales, I wonder whether the right Gentleman, and I hope that we debate issues in a hon. Gentleman has costed those proposals and, if so, constructive manner when we meet on the Justice whether he could share those costings with the House Committee. Yes, of course there are people in the voluntary today? sector who can do this work, but I am concerned that many of those smaller entities will be unable to carry Mr Llwyd rose— the capital risk, and that most of the work will go to G4S, to Serco and to all the rest of the robber barons Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. who will be jumping in. They will be listening to this Before the right hon. Gentleman deals with that debate and eagerly awaiting their chance to enter the intervention, I remind the House that the Chairman of 203 Debate on the Address9 MAY 2013 Debate on the Address 204

Ways and Means has indicated that if each speaker free treatment is available to people—in many cases contributed 12 or 13 minutes to the debate, that would literally as soon as they step off the plane and arrive in allow all Members to get in without imposing a time this country. That is certainly the case in my constituency, limit. We are getting close to needing a time limit, so which has Gatwick airport within its boundaries. I have perhaps those who have already spoken could exercise heard reports of about 150 heavily pregnant women some self-restraint in not intervening, which would arriving at Gatwick airport every year, and of my local enable the right hon. Gentleman to conclude his remarks. area’s East Surrey hospital having to support and treat those women from the pregnancy process through to Mr Llwyd: I accept what you say, Madam Deputy birth. Indeed, it was reported to me just this morning Speaker, and you have probably saved me from having that women who are 35 weeks pregnant have often to answer the right hon. Gentleman’s question. presented themselves at Gatwick airport. That is, of As I do not have time to deal with that particular course, a burden on the national health service; it is query, let me say that the dangerous dogs Bill is welcome, essentially an abuse of the generosity of our system. but that we must scrutinise it very carefully. Other The problem, however, is much more wide scale than measures in the Queen’s Speech are clearly welcome, that. Where people present themselves to a local GP too, but as always, the devil is in the detail. surgery, the GPs are encouraged to register the individuals I looked at The Independent earlier today, and saw and not to ask about their eligibility to receive primary that its front-page banner headline was “Coalition adrift health care or free health on the NHS at all. Once as key policies go missing from Queen’s Speech”. That someone is registered with a doctor’s practice, they will might be the reason for its being a bit thin, but there are receive an NHS number and will then be free to be measures that we can all build on, improve and take referred on anywhere in the health care system without forward. I hope, however, that the toxic debate about any further checks. In the majority of cases, such people immigration will not dominate wider debate of the will be entitled to free prescriptions as well. Queen’s Speech. I conclude on that note, Madam Deputy What we essentially have in this country, then, is not Speaker, and thank you for admonishing me in time. so much a national health service as an international health service. I do not think anyone in this place would 1.51 pm want to deny the very best treatment that our health Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): I am grateful to be system can offer to people in this country and around called to speak in this debate on the Gracious Speech. It the world, but people should be able properly to contribute was three years ago this month when Mr Speaker called to the system, and the system should be able to recover me to make my maiden speech, and after your recent the costs of treating foreign nationals through reciprocal ruling, Madam Deputy Speaker, I can assure you that I arrangements or, where such arrangements do not exist, will be much more concise in this submission than I was the costs should be directly recovered. in the previous one. I received an e-mail this morning from the Surrey and I would like to take the opportunity briefly to support Sussex Healthcare NHS Trust, my local acute health the measures in the immigration Bill that was announced care trust. It detailed the latest available figures on the yesterday in the other place. Last September, during the cost of treating foreign nationals—to its credit, it does previous parliamentary Session, I had the privilege to audit them—as more than £500,000. Yet the amount it introduce a private Member’s Bill, called the NHS was able to recover through reciprocal arrangements or Audit Requirements (Foreign Nationals) Bill, which directly was in the order only of about £130,000. That is was intended to tackle the large-scale abuse of our a pretty typical picture across our health service and national health service that occurs when people not trusts up and down the country. entitled to receive free NHS care do receive it. That Bill Last year, together with the Minister for Immigration, came about as a result of my submission of Freedom of my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean Information Act requests to every health trust in the (Mr Harper), I had the privilege of visiting the immigration country. I asked how many foreign nationals they had facilities at Gatwick airport. As part of our discussions treated and what level of costs they had managed to with immigration officials at the airport, we spoke to a recover from the treatments of those foreign nationals— desk officer who liaises with the Department of Health either directly or, more typically, through reciprocal and NHS trusts in order to try to recover costs from agreements such as the European health card insurance foreign nationals who have used NHS services. The scheme. picture presented was again that we were successful in The responses I received were really quite shocking, recovering those costs only from a minority of those as about half of all health trusts said that they did not foreign nationals. record information on the treatment of foreign nationals It is incredible that we have allowed this sort of at all. Many of those who responded with some data situation to become commonplace in this country. If we provided confused information. Some had treated British look to other European countries, we find that they are citizens who had moved abroad and some had treated much more rigorous in ensuring that the treatment of those who had served in the armed forces abroad as their foreign nationals, including Britons, under their foreign nationals, while others recorded data only on health system is properly recorded so that those costs EU nationals or on European economic area nationals. can be recovered—in the case of our European neighbours, Frankly, the general picture of how the NHS records through the European health insurance card scheme. data about the treatment of foreign nationals was in a They achieve that by checking eligibility at the point very parlous state indeed. where health services are received. If someone needs to Technically, people are entitled to free treatment on see a doctor for primary care, a gateway mechanism is the NHS if they have been habitually resident in this introduced. In the case of emergency treatment, it is of country for a year or more. The reality, however, is that course important that care is delivered as soon as possible, 205 Debate on the Address9 MAY 2013 Debate on the Address 206

[Henry Smith] up from Buckingham palace on his behalf. I do not think he has ever grasped the fact that most people but in other countries it is again commonplace for the cannot do it like that. costs of such emergency treatments to be recovered Our public services are facing unprecedented problems. after the individual has been treated, stabilised and My local hospital is losing hundreds of posts, many in capable of being discharged. It is incredible that we do the front line. It has breached its accident and emergency not do that, which is why I am very supportive of the waiting times on 14 occasions in the last 26 weeks. Yet measures announced in the Queen’s Speech to ensure the same Ministers who have wasted £3 billion on an finally that we have some rigour, because this is ultimately unnecessary reorganisation and whose Department paid about fairness to the taxpayers who fund our NHS. back £2.2 billion to the Treasury have no plans to tackle It is right that we have an NHS that is universally this. They would rather see skilled nurses and dedicated available regardless of ability to pay, and it is right that health assistants on the dole than admit they should that system is largely paid for out of taxation, but it change course. cannot be right that that system is then freely available This country—the seventh richest country in the to anybody arriving in this country without any meaningful world—is shamed by the fact that thousands of its checks. By introducing these checks to ensure that our people rely on food banks, yet we heard nothing in this health service is not abused in that way, we can restore speech about plans to tackle poverty, much of which, confidence in our system and create greater fairness, we should remember, is in-work poverty. We heard and also ensure that the health budget is not unnecessarily nothing about encouraging employers to pay a living overburdened, as it is at present, to the tune of hundreds wage, and nothing about developing the training and of millions of pounds. skills people need in order to improve their lives and get a better deal for their families. Although this Government say they support strivers, 2pm they instead constantly target them. [Interruption.] For Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab): I shall direct example, they say they have frozen council tax, yet my remarks to the Queen’s Speech as a whole. I have 700,000 of the poorest families—working families—are listened carefully both yesterday and today to the speeches paying more in council tax as a result of their changes. from Members on the Government Benches and heard [Interruption.] Their welfare reform legislation will mean about the progress towards the sunlit uplands that they real-terms cuts in tax credits, sick pay and maternity have described for us all, and nothing could better pay for people who are working. [Interruption.] If the demonstrate the fact that they fail to grasp, let alone hon. Member for Ealing Central and Acton (Angie have any ability to deal with, the problems facing this Bray) would stop chuntering from a sedentary position, country. In the face of a flatlining economy, rising perhaps she would realise that these sums of money, unemployment and the loss of the triple A credit rating, which are small to members of her Government, for all we have from them is more of the same. many families in this country make the difference between getting to the end of the week and not getting to the end Most of all, the Queen’s Speech was marked by a of the week. poverty of ambition for this country—by a failure to Yet one thing the Government are very good at is articulate any vision for the future and a lack of faith in transferring blame. We can see that in all their rhetoric the ability of the people in this country to work their about welfare reform, but they neglect to point out that way out of the problems. We hear in here that the many benefits go to families in work. They neglect to economy is improving, but we know that outside it is point out that the welfare bill mostly goes on pensions. flatlining and lending to business is falling. We hear that They neglect to point out that, as a proportion of the Government are on the side of people who work, tax-take, the welfare bill has not, in fact, increased for yet those people have lost £1,700 in income since the the last 20 years. last election. That gap between rhetoric and reality comes about Nick de Bois rose— because the Government have at their heart a club of old school and university chums who have no idea of Helen Jones: I will give way in a moment, after I have the struggles many families in this country face. They made a little more progress. know nothing about counting the pennies to get to the Why do they use that rhetoric? The answer is simple. end of the week, and nothing about the desolation that They are saying to people in this country, “The flatlining unemployment brings. If they talked to people in economy and rising unemployment is not the Chancellor’s constituencies such as mine, they would know what is fault or the Prime Minister’s fault. It’s your sister’s fault happening. There are people in work who fear they are for going on maternity leave. It’s your neighbour’s fault going to lose their job. There are parents who fear their for being sick. It’s your cousin’s fault for having a spare children will never have a home of their own and never bedroom.” do as well as them. There are grandparents who worry about their grandchildren being out of work. Yet there Nick de Bois rose— is nothing in this Queen’s Speech for them. Some 1 million young people in this country are Helen Jones: Before the hon. Gentleman gets worked unemployed, and in parts of my constituency youth up, let me tell him that I would clamp down ruthlessly unemployment is up by 43%. There is nothing for them on fraud, because it is stealing from poorer people, but in the Gracious Speech. There is nothing to match our he knows as well as I do that fraud is less than 1% of the job guarantee for young people. I know it is said that bill and is less than the amount the errors in the Department the Prime Minister got his first job when someone rang for Work and Pensions costs the system. To pretend all 207 Debate on the Address9 MAY 2013 Debate on the Address 208 these things about the people who have lost their jobs in government, that not only lends to small and medium-sized my constituency after years of work, and the people enterprises, but ensures that we invest in the different who are sick or disabled who would like nothing better regions of our country, promoting their economic strengths than to get a job, is an insult to those decent people. and building up their capacity. It is also right that we should be on the side of people who work and who Nick de Bois: I am very grateful to the hon. Lady for want to work, but that means actually getting people giving way, and that is the first time I have had an back into jobs. answer to an intervention that I never made. It is also an answer that addresses a subject I was not going to touch Dr Huppert: The hon. Lady is right to say that there is on. What I was hoping for was a little bit of guidance. some unpleasant rhetoric about benefits, with some The hon. Lady rattled off a list of welfare measures that unpleasant suggestions made. Will she join me in she found utterly unacceptable, but we have been led by condemning a suggestion made three or so days ago her party’s Front-Bench team to believe it supports that there should be no benefits for anyone until they many of our welfare reform measures. Can she therefore have paid national insurance for two years? That would answer this question: would she repeal every single one clearly hit incredibly hard young unemployed people of the measures she listed? and people who are disabled. The proposal was made by her colleague, the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann). Helen Jones: The hon. Gentleman is trying to put words into my mouth that I did not say. What I did say Helen Jones: My hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw to him is that we would crack down on fraud ruthlessly, makes many proposals, some of which I agree with and but I will not subscribe to the rhetoric that tries to label some I do not—that is probably one we would have to decent men and women who simply want to get a job as park somewhere. somehow being scroungers, and nor will I subscribe to the rhetoric that says all people who are receiving I was talking about jobs. There needs to be a matching benefits are out of work. He knows very well that that is of not only our jobs guarantee for young people, but not true. Many of them are low-paid working families. our guarantee of jobs for older people who have been We should look to improving their living conditions to out of work for more than two years. We also want to reduce the welfare bill. switch money from a tax cut for millionaires to support tax credits for the very people are who are out working in low-paid jobs, doing the right thing. We have to Nick de Bois: I have not mentioned any of the terms protect people’s rights at work—the Prime Minister the hon. Lady listed. She has tried to put those words in wants to negotiate them away—not only because doing my mouth. I would be extremely grateful if she clarified so is morally right, but because the strongest and most the point. prosperous economies work through partnership between employers and employees; they work through training Helen Jones: I have just clarified it for the hon. and investment in employees, not through a quick hire- Gentleman, but let me say this to him. The results of and-fire culture. We will never compete with developing that policy are very clear. Just when the country needs nations on low wages; we have to compete with them on to be united, what this Government are about is promoting skills. division. They are about making people suspicious of One key to doing that is housing. Constituencies such one another: those in work fearing those out of work; as mine are desperate for homes for those who want to the rich behaving as if the poor are a problem; those get a foot on the ladder and for homes to rent, yet the who lose their jobs, even in areas of low immigration, builders who come to us want to build homes for being made to think immigration is the problem. commuters. When they do agree to build some affordable We have seen the results: a country fearful and disunited. housing, they often buy themselves out of that That does not build a confident, prosperous Britain, commitment—the Government’s permission to renegotiate because when people are fearful, they do not take risks section 106 agreements has not helped—and such an and innovate—they cling to what they have. It does not approach simply builds ghettoes. If we are to build build a Britain at ease with itself either, divided between viable communities, we need to look at other ways of rich and poor, north and south. We are a better country building the affordable housing we need. We need to look than that, and we can be a better country, but it requires at co-ownership and at councils being allowed to build leadership from a Government willing to change the by accessing money through the use of their pension priorities. The first priority is to build a prosperous funds. I have long believed that local authorities should economy throughout the regions and nations of this be able to build not only for sale, but for rent. country. Getting that economy right is key to many of the This Government have systematically taken money things we want to do, to improving the living standards out of many of our regions, which have already been hit of our people and to ensuring that they have the services by unemployment. They have transferred £1 billion out they need—I do not have time to go into that this of the north of England in their local government afternoon. To achieve that, however, requires one thing: settlement alone. They have hit those big cities suffering a Government willing to lead, not one blown about by most from unemployment through their welfare reforms; every last opinion poll or every election setback that for example, Birmingham will lose £10 million on council they see. This Government are no longer that Government. tax changes alone, and Liverpool is losing more than They are in office but they have no plan for the future, £7 million in bedroom tax. That is money that would they have no vision of how this country should develop otherwise be spent in local shops and businesses, promoting and they have no faith in the British people to make that those local economies. That is why it is important to development. That is why they are no longer a Government have a British investment bank, at arm’s length from who are good enough for this country. 209 Debate on the Address9 MAY 2013 Debate on the Address 210

2.15 pm for an attack on the intruder. That would be ridiculous and would fly in the face of all common sense, so I hope Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con): It is a very much that this matter can be sorted out sensibly. pleasure to be called to speak and to join other hon. Members in debating the contents of yesterday’s Gracious Another major area of concern has already been Speech by Her Majesty. It sets out a refreshed programme mentioned today, and those of us who have been for government that will build on the strong and effective campaigning on this issue are well aware of it—I refer progress we have already made. It outlines measures to to the growing problem of attacks by out-of-control do more to keep our communities safe and secure, while dogs on guide dogs. This is a particularly nasty trend, promising to help deliver more for people who want to because guide dogs have been trained to be passive and get on and achieve things. docile, and such an attack is, of course, incredibly upsetting for the owner, who depends so much on the I want to focus my remarks, in my few minutes, on the support of their dog. I am delighted that this appalling upcoming Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing problem has now been recognised by the Government, Bill. Just how much good progress we have already and I hope that the penalties will be as tough as possible. made in keeping our neighbourhoods safer and secure was made clear to me when I was lucky enough to help Although the question of dangerous dogs is not launch the UK peace index a few weeks ago. As the strictly the responsibility of the Home Office, the completely independent figures show, violent crime is Government should consider what encouragement can coming right down, in no small part because of the be given to local authorities to deal with it. Some, such work that the Home Secretary and her team have been as Wandsworth and Ealing, are already working on doing over the past couple of years. I am sure that the finding ways to use tenancy agreements on their estates measures promised in the new Bill will build on that to control dog ownership. This seems an obvious route progress. to take as so many of the problems with dangerous dogs arise on unruly estates where the local council has The Bill will also cover one of the issues I have been significant control, if it wants to exert it. That is an most active in working on and one closest to my heart: underused tool and it needs joined-up government thinking, dangerous dogs. I do not expect other Members to along with work by the Local Government Association remember this, but a plea to do something about the and London Councils. The truth is that even where problem was one of the main points I made in my councils are considering such an approach, enforcement maiden speech, almost exactly three years ago. I said is not always carried through. The Government need to then that tackling the scourge of dogs being used as send a strong message that local authorities will be weapons—a massive antisocial behaviour issue—must expected to play their part in helping to tackle this be a priority, and I have been campaigning along those blight. Local authorities have the powers and they lines ever since. should be used. I have always said that the issue is as much about I will finish by touching briefly on one or two other dangerous owners as dangerous dogs—in fact, it is measures in the Queen’s Speech that I welcome. There more so. It is imperative that measures against antisocial are three bills in particular: the national insurance behaviour focus on the owners who train their dogs as contributions Bill, the deregulation Bill, and the intellectual weapons to use for intimidation and as a badge of property Bill. They will all contain measures that should status. They blight the lives of communities with their genuinely help small businesses. Giving people confidence threat of aggression, just as much as do the actual by saying to them, “If you’ve got a good idea, go for it,” attacks that sometimes, sadly, occur. We need measures must be at the heart of our agenda. It is the key to that will tackle this head on by giving communities and success and to that magic word, growth. their local police necessary enforcement powers. I am Finally, and not before time, we have the long-awaited pleased with the progress made by this Government on care Bill, which is an important step forward in providing making microchipping compulsory. Although that will the care that our elderly need without forcing them to not itself solve the problem of vicious dogs, it will sell the roof from over their heads. It is not as generous introduce greater accountability and responsibility through as it might be, but it is a good start. We also need to do detailing ownership, which will go some way to deterring all we can to support carers themselves. In particular, irresponsible ownership. when families look after their elderly relatives at home, It is absolutely right to extend section 3 of the Dangerous thereby providing the best kind of family support and Dogs Act 1991 to cover private land. It has long struck saving NHS resources, we should consider how we can me as extraordinary that a postal worker posting a reward that incredibly important support as generously letter could get his finger chewed off by a dog at the as we can. other side of the letterbox with no comeback, yet if the The Queen’s Speech lays out an important legislative owner of the dog, in a crazy world, had substituted programme for this year, and there is much to be done. themselves for the dog, they would automatically be chargeable with an offence—presumably, grievous bodily harm, so although this measure is very late in coming, it 2.21 pm is none the less very welcome. Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): It is a We need clarity on what happens when a dog attempts great pleasure to take part in this debate on the Queen’s to protect its owner’s home from an intruder. It is right Speech this afternoon. that when this happens with the owner present, there I am interested in some small proposals in the Queen’s should be no penalty attached. However, there are Speech: the proposal to protect intellectual property; concerns that, as things stand, if the owner is not the proposal to produce a draft consumer rights Bill, present while the dog defends the property, there may which, as we have been briefed, will cover digital purchases well be a penalty to pay and the owner will be held liable as well as ordinary purchases; the proposal to invest in 211 Debate on the Address9 MAY 2013 Debate on the Address 212 infrastructure, particularly broadband, following the face because of my lack of digital skills are nearly as Government’s significant failure to deliver broadband serious as those faced by many of our constituents. in rural areas; and the Home Secretary’s proposals to When the Government try to make it compulsory to match internet protocol addresses. access universal credit online, they will come up against My main concern, however, is with what is not in the a serious problem as many of the people involved will Queen’s Speech, namely a proper and complete Bill be precisely those who do not have the access or the skills. from the Department for Culture, Media and Sport on The Government should be developing a strategy to communications and the media. The Communications get as many people online as possible. That means Act 2003 has now been overtaken by significant changes— doing something much more energetic in the rural areas both technological and in the market—and it is time as well as helping people to improve their digital skills that the Government stopped taking a piecemeal and through training and education. We need to pause for a bite-sized approach to the internet, which has led to a moment and consider that point. The Government are rather chaotic situation, and took a much more strategic trying to do something in schools—although I do not overview. think it is adequate—but if an adult does not have a job The new technology obviously has the potential to or if their job does not involve work in an office, it is disperse power and to support economic growth. However, difficult for them to learn those skills. those things will happen only if we have a policy to Furthermore, it is extremely expensive to be online. maximise access and challenge some of those in this Ministers must face up to this point. It costs about £5 a arena who have significant concentrations of power—not week to have a connection and the kit costs a further only in the market but in the democratic processes and £100. Meanwhile, the welfare reforms mean that I have the information that is available to people. We need a constituents who are now expected to live on £20 a strategy that can reproduce online the rights and week; it is not sensible to say to the same group of responsibilities that we have in the real world. We also people that they should prioritise spending £5 a week need a much stronger cross-departmental approach than on an internet connection. the Government seem capable of delivering at the moment. Another group of people who suffer from digital The new means of communication are proving to be exclusion and this growing divide in our country are very significant to jobs and business development. Last those who are disabled or who have learning disabilities, year, the communications sector was worth £50 billion, as we do not oblige the manufacturers of kit to make which was 4% of GDP, and it employed more than half the kit accessible for them. a million people. I am told that every year between A Labour Government would switch half the money— 60,000 and 130,000 new jobs are created in this sector. £75 million—from the super-connected cities programme We know that businesses that are online are growing to a digital inclusion programme. On the basis of the much faster than other businesses, so we must ensure experience in the previous Parliament, when we found that the legal underpinning is there. I hope that the that it cost about £30 million to get 1 million people proposals on consumer rights mentioned in the Queen’s online, that could help some 2 million people get online. Speech will support that process, but it is rather It would be much better to use the money productively. disappointing that the Bill will only be in draft form. It would have a much bigger impact than some of the We must make changes in three broad areas: first, we infrastructure that the Government have been prioritising. must deliver broadband to all parts of the country and There is no point in putting money to one side because give people access to it; secondly, we must improve of a legal challenge and not using it at all. It would be digital inclusion, training and skills; and, thirdly, we far better to help some of those people to get online. must strengthen people’s rights with a digital consumers The communications sector, as I said earlier, is highly charter. Everyone should have access to broadband. concentrated and monopolistic. In each technology there Everyone is entitled to a telephone and the Post Office are a small number of players, some of which are very has a universal service obligation, and broadband is now large and some of which are vertically integrated. Many so significant that it should be put on the same footing. of the operators are international and foreign-owned. The Queen’s Speech said that the Government would For example, last year Facebook floated for £100 billion. “continue to invest in infrastructure”, That is larger than nine European economies. Vodafone but the fact is that the previous Labour Government has a market capitalisation greater than that of BP. had a target of ensuring that everybody had 2 megabits There are only four mobile phone companies, of which per second by 2012. The Government abandoned that three are foreign-owned, and BT and Virgin own all the target and probably will not achieve it until 2016. At the infrastructure for broadband, down to the last mile. moment, 2.6 million households, mainly in rural areas, In addition to being extremely wealthy, some of these have no possibility of accessing broadband. firms are very aggressive and through litigation have A further problem with the Government’s approach been challenging rulings by Ofcom. For example, the is that they have prioritised speed over access. It is internet service providers challenged the Department significant that the Government’s super-connected cities for Business, Innovation and Skills on the legality of the programme, into which they have poured £150 million, Digital Economy Act 2010. I am glad to say that the has been challenged by some of the operators on state Department for Business, Innovation and Skills succeeded aid grounds as it is not clear whether the subsidy is and the internet service providers failed in that challenge. needed to develop faster speeds in inner-city areas. At Against this background, it is a worry that the the same time, the Government are allowing a situation Government have failed to give Ofcom the resources to continue in which 10.6 million people have never sent that it needs and that they are not introducing new an e-mail and 16 million people have inadequate digital legislation to strengthen its powers. If it does not have skills. My secretary says that it is quite clear that I am the necessary powers, it is much more likely to succumb one of those people, but I do not think the problems I to such expensive litigation. It is a bit contradictory. 213 Debate on the Address9 MAY 2013 Debate on the Address 214

[Helen Goodman] I shall do two things which, I think, will please the House: I shall be extremely brief and therefore observe The Government have cut the Ofcom budget, but they the courtesy of listening to the following speaker. I am have not strengthened its powers, which means that pressed because of another meeting so I hope the Ofcom’s legal bill is running up and up, so that is not a House will forgive me for being brief, which it will no sensible way of carrying on. We need to strengthen doubt welcome, and for not staying for subsequent Ofcom’s powers in order that the work of the regulator speeches. can no longer be deliberately frustrated. That could be I shall speak specifically about antisocial behaviour. addressed through cost capping or reforming the standard The term underplays the awful way in which the lives of of appeal under the existing communications legislation. those on the receiving end of antisocial behaviour are A fully connected country has the opportunity to transformed and how they enter into periods of intense share information and disperse power, but currently the frustration, worry, concern and even fear if they are the small number of players means that consumers’ interests victims of repetitive antisocial behaviour. I am sure that are not always at the forefront of their minds. We need other Members regularly see constituents in that situation. regulation, not to tell companies what to do in every Sadly, I see them all too regularly—I would go so far as last detail but to promote competition. I should like to to say that in almost every single surgery I encounter a highlight the elements which a consumers charter approach case of antisocial behaviour. The term worries me for should cover. First, we need to deal with privacy and two reasons. If it is used to describe extremely serious online theft. According to a survey by O2 and Populus, instances, it can lead to action not being taken swiftly people’s No. 1 worry about the web is how their personal enough. Some police forces struggle to deal with what data are used and how large companies share the data they regard as an antisocial behaviour complaint. As a that people hand over. We must take effective action to consequence, many incidents are repeated and go on for protect people’s privacy and engage much more energetically a long time. with the proposals coming from the European Union Working with one of my local papers, the Enfield on personal data. Independent, we came across a case in my constituency The Home Secretary’s proposals on internet protocol where for three years utterly unacceptable bullying behaviour addresses are welcome but I am not sure they go far was taking place against two shopkeepers and residents enough. As I said to her earlier today, she should take in neighbouring houses. One resident was having her the opportunity to strengthen age verification because bin set on fire regularly and was having stones thrown it is important to help parents protect their children down on to her roof, and people’s doors were being online. The Government have been saying for three trashed—all serious criminal behaviour which went without years that they want to do something about that and the a response for nearly three years. Prime Minister says that he wants to run the most family-friendly Government, but not one real step forward Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab): Has the hon. Gentleman, has been taken. We need a statutory backstop now. It is like me, experienced a lack of reporting by residents? what the Labour Government promised in the previous They tell me that there is no point in reporting such Parliament—a statutory backstop so that if the ISPs incidents because they are simply not being dealt with have not introduced measures to enable parents to by the police in a way that we would wish to see. protect their children, they will be required to do so. Furthermore, we need better price transparency. Many Nick de Bois: The hon. Lady makes a fair point, of the firms are bundling up people’s television contract which will make my speech even shorter. There is a with their mobile phone, internet connection and so on, sense of frustration. The Government’s measure is vital making it difficult for the ordinary consumer to see and important, but it may not mitigate some of the what each is costing. We must do something about that reasons why people will still continue to be reluctant to and to help people switch from one provider to another. report. That is due not just to a belief that something We must also see some action on security for people will not happen, but to fear. After coming across this making payments over the internet. It is not clear from incident, I found myself talking to six residents and two what the Government have said whether they propose shopkeepers, and not one of them wanted to report the to do that or not. That would increase security for crime. They knew who was responsible and that it was consumers and would also be welcomed by businesses consistently the same people, but they were fearful of because they cannot expand e-commerce without more repercussions if they took the matter further. security on the internet. Finally, people in this country are most exercised by Lyn Brown: My residents told me that they were not nuisance calls. We know that in order to address the reporting because the police did not have the resources proliferation of nuisance calls, legal action is needed. It to deal with the issue. is extremely disappointing that after three years, two Secretaries of State, the promise of a Green Paper and Nick de Bois: I will deal with that point now. I will not the promise of a White Paper, none of that has happened. make the usual response that I will cover it later because We need to see a Bill now. I do not have clue how to answer it—I am sorry; I am probably being very unfair to other hon. Members. The 2.36 pm point fits in with my theme. Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): It is a pleasure to The concept behind the community trigger is an follow the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen excellent idea. It basically means that if five complaints Goodman) and although I do not necessarily draw the are made, the police are obliged to investigate. That is a same conclusions, her argument about the effect of good and important concept. If there is a reluctance to broadband on the economy is not in doubt. complain because people doubt whether anything will 215 Debate on the Address9 MAY 2013 Debate on the Address 216 happen—although I think the community trigger will thriving communities that offer job opportunities for encourage them because of the compulsion on the force our young people and for all our citizens. That would to act—we need to be comfortable that the police can bring the welfare bill down. Many people are desperately react and in a sufficiently timely manner. I live in a looking for a job and would like to work more hours, borough where the police have had to deal with extremely but nothing in the Government’s proposed programme serious issues and I accept that there will be times when will help to create jobs. they may have to delay their investigation, but I hope The Welsh Government are playing their part in they will investigate. I am afraid that there have been creating jobs and providing support to businesses. They too many instances when as an MP I have had to have already created 4,000 jobs in the Jobs Growth prompt action when it should have been the citizen’s Wales programme, and are on target to create another complaint that prompted the action. But the potential 4,000 this year and the year after. The focus is on problem with the community trigger is that sometimes helping the private sector to grow, so young people are it is difficult to get one person to complain, so to get five helped into work and businesses are helped to grow. may be quite a challenge. Jane Hutt, the Finance Minister in the Welsh Government, I genuinely support the moves on antisocial behaviour has recently announced a package of £75 million of and I am keen to see them go ahead, so I recommend to additional capital investment to support the Welsh Ministers that in addition to the community trigger infrastructure investment plan. In addition, £400 million proposals where residents can complain, perhaps they is to be spent on housing to help to realise a target of should consider allowing locally elected councillors to 7,500 affordable homes by 2016. be representatives of people, and where sufficient residents But we all know that the main economic levers are have expressed concern they could also trigger the process. held by the UK Government, where the savage cuts in I see those on the Front Bench nodding in agreement—they tax credits and the increase in the regressive tax VAT are not really, but I would welcome comments on that. mean that millions of less well-off families are struggling My constituents ask me to do something about such to make ends meet, particularly as prices are rising very matters, and if they feel more comfortable with their quickly, while those earning more than £150,000 are elected representative doing something, perhaps because given a tax break. This is not only unfair, it is economic of fear, that could be a positive role for a councillor who nonsense, because the least well-off spend their money could use the community trigger to act on their residents quickly and it goes back into the local economy, whereas behalf. If councillors are not elected to do that, what the better-off may wish to stash it away or spend it are they elected to do? abroad. We have only to look at our town centres to see With antisocial behaviour being firmly placed on the the dire effects of squeezing middle and low-income Home Office’s agenda and in their sights for introduction families. Research also shows that greater equality between into a Bill, I urge Ministers to ensure that enforcement the better-off and the less well-off members of society can be met and that local police forces can be held makes for greater community cohesion. We need a tax accountable for that. We in this House can legislate, but on bankers’ bonuses to provide money to invest in jobs, we cannot implement measures on the ground. I hope such as house building. that with the introduction of police and crime On immigration, what we really want is a crackdown commissioners, local people will be able to hold their on all forms of exploitation, whether of migrant workers police force to account to meet the challenges that they or our own workers. There are still far too many examples have set them, but in London boroughs, which come of gangmasters bringing in groups of people, housing under the Met police and the commissioner, it will be them in substandard conditions, making all sorts of trickier. deductions from their salaries and, with regard to their I wholeheartedly support the measures in the Bill, but hours and working conditions, exploiting them ruthlessly. if there is frustration on the ground, I hope that Ministers Far from tackling the problem, the Government seem will not regard their job as done once they have legislated. to be doing the opposite. They have done away with the The job will be done when we have made a significant Agricultural Wages Board, which was one body that set dent in this dreadfully unacceptable behaviour of those down minimum standards for accommodation, and who want to terrorise their neighbours and vandalise have put the Gangmasters (Licensing) Act 2004 under their property. threat, whereas we would like to see it extended to cover those in the construction and care industries, for example. 2.45 pm Many Members will have visited the excellent exhibition on human trafficking opened by the Prime Minister. Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): I want to speak on a One of the calls was for some form of slavery Act. number of important issues. The Queen’s Speech seems Perhaps that is a slightly dramatic term, but it would to lack vision. There is no idea of a coherent society or have been nice to see something in the Queen’s Speech how we make it a better and fairer society. There seems that tackled that type of exploitation and began digging to be a lot of tinkering at the edges without really down into the real problems that exist not only in one or tackling the main causes of the main issues of the day. two parts of Great Britain, but right across the country, As my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington North as the exhibition’s wall map showed. Simply not enough (Helen Jones) pointed out, we lack an economic vision—a is being done to tackle human trafficking. vision to rebuild our society and use the talents of our Another issue, mentioned by my hon. Friend the people to improve the lot of all of us. Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart), is the overseas We often talk about community cohesion, but when domestic workers visa. That is another thing the we try to define what makes that it leads to all sorts of Government have done that has made it more difficult discussion. Key to community cohesion is a sense of to trace people and rescue them from domestic slavery. respect for each other and self-respect, and key to that is That is what we really need to tackle when we talk about 217 Debate on the Address9 MAY 2013 Debate on the Address 218

[Nia Griffith] from abroad. We want to be absolutely certain that we continue to attract those specialists and that I do not immigration. Trafficking and exploitation have continued, have hospital registrars coming to my surgery because all of which is bad for not only those workers, but local they are having difficulty renewing their visas and sorting people, who are obviously being undercut. I think that things out. everybody would accept that what we really want is On antisocial behaviour orders and the proposal to decent jobs with decent remuneration for local workers replace them with much weaker measures, it seems to and migrant workers alike. me that we need something stronger, not weaker. We know that ASBOs are not perfect, but we want stronger Helen Goodman: My hon. Friend is making an interesting measures, not weaker ones. They must follow things case. I represent a constituency in the north-east, where through, not with a civil action that takes for ever but a we have high unemployment and low wages. Will she proper criminal case that acts as a deterrent against tell us what the situation is like with regard to unemployment people getting an ASBO. and wages in her constituency? Yesterday the hon. Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) Nia Griffith: We have two great scourges: first, spoke eloquently about the relationship between alcohol unemployment, and secondly, underemployment and a and disorder and the failure to go for minimum pricing. low-wage economy. That means that people are dependent As she said, that is not about beating the poor with a on tax credits. We would like the minimum wage to be high price but about protecting many members of society increased at least in line with inflation and to move from a lot of the results of alcohol abuse, whether it be towards a living wage that gives people enough to live domestic violence, difficulties in our inner-city areas, or on without having to have their salaries topped up by wanton acts of violence. She clearly made the connection tax credits. That is obviously an aspiration that many of between health inequality and the availability of very us share. Certainly, some of our local councils are cheap alcohol. trying to work towards that. The hon. Lady also talked about plain packaging for cigarettes and, as a doctor, made a clear case for the Lyn Brown: I was interested to hear what my hon. reasons why we should do everything we possibly can to Friend said about trafficking. I had a dreadful case in deter our young people from taking up smoking. It is a my surgery only last week in which a woman had clearly great sadness to me that this Queen’s Speech does not been trafficked from Bangladesh and used to undercut give us any measures on plain packaging. Even more the minimum wage for the past 10 years. She was kept in worrying was the insinuation that possibly some of the servitude—practically slavery—the whole time while information we were given about plain packaging, such working for less than £50 a week, most of which was as it leading to more smuggling of cigarettes, was inaccurate taken away for her bed and board. Does my hon. Friend in having been portrayed as coming from the police. agree that that needs to be tackled? We need to get to That brings me to the other missing feature of this the traffickers, but the victims also need to be protected, Queen’s Speech—the transparency that we need on because at the moment the Home Office thinks that it lobbying. We know that there will always be vested might deport that woman soon, and I will be writing to interests and that people can declare those interests and the Minister about the case shortly. explain on whose behalf they are speaking, but we remain concerned that there is a lot of veiled and Nia Griffith: That is a good example, but sadly it is dishonest lobbying where people are not up front and it not an isolated one; there seem to be many such cases. A is not exactly clear who is behind it. It would have been report from the Government’s own Department shows nice if the Prime Minister had been able to announce that we have not tackled the problem sufficiently. It has yesterday that he was going to do something about been suggested that a commission is needed to look into what he has called that. Whether or not that is the right way forward, we “the next big scandal waiting to happen.” certainly need some action. It would have been nice to see a concerted effort in the Queen’s Speech to legislate Indeed, there was the scandal that led to dinners for to tackle human trafficking. Furthermore, the Government’s donors in Downing street. Those are some of the issues threat to pull out of the European arrest warrant system that need to be addressed further, and it is a great shame is yet another measure that could undermine our that that will not happen in the next legislative Session. co-operation with other countries in dealing with the I return to the police, particularly those in my own criminal gangs that cross borders. area. I recently had the pleasure of meeting the new When it comes to the rest of our immigration policy, chief constable of Dyfed-Powys police, Simon Prince, I think we all understand that we need to be absolutely and had very meaningful discussions with him about fair and to deal with people in a proper and timely how to make our communities better and safer places. I manner, but we must also be careful not to become a was pleased to notice his emphasis on the need for country to which nobody wants to come. One of the partnership with other organisations to make a cohesive problems we have in west Wales is getting the skilled community and for a coherent approach to tackling doctors we need in our hospitals. We all want to see our and preventing problems, as well as a better understanding young people trained, and thank goodness the Welsh of the role of the police in society. Government are trying to limit student fees to £3,500 a One worry that we have locally is the threat to take year, unlike this Government, who have let them rocket away the police helicopter. It is clear to anyone who to £9,000, which I am afraid will deter many from knows the Dyfed-Powys area, with its mountains and studying medicine. Obviously we want to see our own its long coastline, much of which is rocky, that a fixed-wing students coming through, but at the same time we are aircraft, which may have its uses for reconnaissance and dependent on attracting the right quality of specialists search purposes, does not offer the necessary versatility 219 Debate on the Address9 MAY 2013 Debate on the Address 220 that the helicopter affords. Indeed, a review carried out importance of community cohesion. I want to address last summer by five air support unit executive officers the need for legislative changes to safeguard elderly concluded with the recommendation people in the place they call home, and comment on a “to place the fixed wing in St Athan and to retain the rotary scandal in south Wales. option”— Whether they are looked after by a public or private namely, the helicopter— provider, the law should ensure that elderly people’s “at the current base at Pembrey.” care is excellent, and respect their dignity, individuality Furthermore, only a couple of years ago some £1.5 million and choice. Care should be delivered with professionalism of public money was spent at Pembrey to create an and compassion. Where care standards fall short, the absolutely state-of-the-art helicopter base, so it would elderly and their families should have confidence that be a real waste of that money if the helicopter were to there will be effective sanctions and redress. move elsewhere. I ask Ministers to address that issue This House has rightly scrutinised the shocking scandals very seriously. in Stafford hospital and the Winterbourne View care On mesothelioma, I am very pleased about the home for adults with learning disabilities. I want to programme to help people who cannot trace their original highlight the disgraceful treatment in care homes for employer. A lot of the people I meet have worked for the elderly in south Wales, the full details of which have many different employers. Sometimes they have been yet to reach the public domain. self-employed. They may have been working in different Gwent has recently seen a failure to secure justice for facilities, perhaps doing a plumber-type job, and going care home residents following the collapse of serious round to all sorts of different providers. So far they criminal charges, which has left the families of an have had no one to turn to for compensation. I hope alleged 103 victims feeling aggrieved and abandoned. that it will be a properly funded programme that will An £11.6 million investigation known as Operation give them the money they so desperately need. I also Jasmine began in 2005. It produced 10,500 pieces of hope that it will not involve delays, because one of the evidence and led police to brand the negligence discovered horrible features of this disease, which is a very nasty as “death by indifference”. However, just two convictions one, is that once it becomes visible it is not very long, have been secured for wilful negligence since the start of perhaps only nine months to a year, before people pass the inquiry in 2005. It took so long to bring charges away. There have been cases where money has come far against the director of the residential care homes who too late to be of any help, so the Bill needs to make was investigated that, by the time his court case was money available to stave off that problem in the interim scheduled in March, Dr Das had suffered an assault, period before the compensation comes through. leaving him unfit for trial. On legal aid, I have been seriously lobbied, perhaps for the first time ever, by solicitors, who admitted that I have been speaking to the families affected by the they might not be the most appealing, cuddly group in stymied Operation Jasmine, who are still grieving over society. Nevertheless, they made the very good point this shameful crime—a crime without punishment. The that it makes no sense for only four firms to provide neglect and indifference in these care homes continues legal aid for such a huge area—the Dyfed-Powys police to appal. There are little things, such as losing a mother’s area is the largest in England and Wales and the fourth false teeth for days on end or dressing her in a neighbour’s largest in England, Wales and Scotland—when most of damp or dirty clothes, and big things—the stories that those who currently operate there are from small family chill the blood—such as the dad who challenged his firms. There are no large providers. Will the Government family on his return to a care home, “Why have you put consider seriously the number of providers that can be me here?” The same father was left curled up like a dog employed in a particular area? for hour upon hour, slowly developing pressure sores that exposed the bone underneath. Another anomaly follows on from that. If someone who has committed a crime and has been helped at a How can we use that sorry experience to inform the police station by a firm of solicitors is involved in reform of the law of wilful neglect, to extend corporate another incident before that case gets to court, they responsibility or to reform our social care legislation? might be helped by a different firm the second time First, I want a public inquiry so that we can understand around. Indeed, three or four different firms could end how Dr Das was able to continue running care homes up attending to that person and they would all have to despite damning reports by the inspectorate, and so that turn up at court. Rather than cutting down on costs, lessons can be learned. that seems wasteful. According to a former employee, Dr Das I can see that you are anxious for me to finish, “would pull up in his Rolls Royce and complain they were Mr Deputy Speaker, so I shall conclude my remarks on spending too much on incontinence pads” that note. at his care home in Ebbw Vale in my constituency. He Several hon. Members rose— failed to pay care home registration fees, and paid the outstanding tax and national insurance for his staff Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. Speeches only on the eve of a hearing on HMRC’s petition to are now averaging about 10 or 11 minutes each. I do not wind up his company. He settled his gas and electricity want to impose a time limit, so I would be grateful if bills only when the energy companies threatened to cut Members could respect others who wish to contribute. off the gas to his care homes. He failed to ensure that all staff had proper Criminal Records Bureau checks and 3.1 pm that sufficient numbers of trained staff were available Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): I am pleased to for cover. Dr Das gave false evidence to the Care follow my hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Nia Standards Tribunal, both orally and in writing, with the Griffith), who made a good contribution about the intention to deceive. The tribunal found that: 221 Debate on the Address9 MAY 2013 Debate on the Address 222

[Nick Smith] past decades. My Government had a major Bill on immigration or nationality in every Parliament, and I “Dr Das has developed an extraordinary capacity for self-delusion”. do not think a day has gone by over the past 20 years in Given the weight of the evidence compiled by Operation which a tabloid paper has not run an anti-immigrant Jasmine, I hope that the Welsh Government or the story, whether it is asylum seekers eating swans or Older People’s Commissioner for Wales will agree to an Romanian ladies in headscarves who are the latest inquiry. threat to the body politic. The myth that no one is Secondly, we must look at the law on wilful neglect. If allowed to talk about immigration is just that. a patient does not die from poor care and does not have It is also a myth that Labour had an open-door a loss of capacity under the Mental Capacity Act 2005, policy on immigration. I do more immigration casework the guidance of the Crown Prosecution Service says than most Members of the House because of the nature that a criminal offence is difficult to identify. The Prime of my constituency, and we have filing cabinets full of Minister was therefore wrong when he told me on 1 cases, many of which went on for months, moving into May that the criminal law was already there to deal with years. The assertion that under the previous Government care home abuse. It is not. immigrants and asylum seekers could just walk into the The deputy chief constable of Gwent police, Jeff UK is a myth that wants quashing. Farrar, told me today: I do not doubt that the polls are right when they “The depth and quality of evidence obtained in this inquiry reflect concern about immigration. I note, however, that and the engagement throughout with expert witnesses and the the more diverse an area, and the longer immigrants CPS was substantial. And it is not only frustrating, but difficult to have been there, the less frightened people are of see how if such cases occurred in the future (where the death of an immigration. Fear takes hold in parts of the country elderly person in a care home was attributed to omissions as where there are hardly any immigrants. Some Labour opposed to deliberate acts) the police could ever produce sufficient evidence to reach the threshold test for charging these offences.” Members like to point to the children or grandchildren of earlier waves of immigrants who have difficulty with Others agree with that view. The Joint Committee immigration and say, “Look, this West Indian and this that scrutinised the draft Care and Support Bill African are worried about eastern European migrants.” recommended that organisations—not just employees—that I have been an MP for more than 20 years, and in a part are found to have contributed to abuse or neglect in a of London that has seen successive waves of immigration care setting should be liable to criminal prosecution for I have noted that it is always the last group of immigrants breach of corporate responsibility. Age UK believes but one to arrive who feel that they can complain about that neglect should be classified as abuse, whether wilful the latest group. It is almost as if being able to complain or not, because of the difficulty of proving intention. about the latest group of immigrants cements someone’s Therefore, if someone is abused or neglected as a result status as a real British national. I do not say that that of incompetence or indifference, it should still be seen does not reflect real concerns about immigration, and as abuse. where there are such concerns, whether about job insecurity, I hope that the Government will engage with voluntary low wages, or an absence of housing, this House and my organisations and MPs of all parties to improve the party should address them. However, it is important not legislation. Prevention is the best option and inspection to get swept up in myth making. procedures must be robust and transparent, but when In an extraordinarily cynical manoeuvre, the Government neglect occurs, those who are responsible must be brought —on the instructions, I imagine, of Mr Lynton Crosby— to justice so that everyone knows that callous and have made immigration one of the centrepieces of the degrading care will be punished. Finally, high standards Queen’s Speech, yet a number of the measures that they of patient care must not be sacrificed to boost personal suggest will not, in practice, achieve the effects that the profit, as when Dr Das enjoyed his Rolls-Royce while general public might think. For instance, the Prime penny pinching and cutting the supply of incontinence Minister spoke about being able to throw out foreign pads to the residents in his homes. national prisoners almost as soon as they are sentenced. Well, we will see whether that can happen. All prisoner 3.8 pm exchange agreements with non-EU countries turn on Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) the consent of the prisoner, and until now, prisoners (Lab): I am very glad to have an opportunity to say a from Jamaica, which has the largest number of foreign few words on the Queen’s Speech. It was a Queen’s nationals in British jails, and prisoners from Nigeria Speech that could best be described as the creation of have always refused to go back to their countries of one Lynton Crosby, the chief Tory strategist. It is origin to serve their sentence. I do not know what will extraordinary that an important, symbolic and historic change. event that takes place every year should this year have An issue was raised in the context of the Queen’s the fingerprints all over it of an Australian huckster. Speech about stopping immigrants who are not entitled The Lynton Crosby effect can be seen in both what is in to NHS treatment from receiving it. Of course we the Queen’s Speech, and what is not in it. What runs should not facilitate health tourism—no Opposition through the speech, the way it was briefed and its Member defends that—and of course hospitals should theme, show that this speech has anti-immigration measures be able to get back money that they are owed. There is, as its centrepiece. however, a danger of blowing this up into a huge issue In the wake of recent local elections, politicians on all when the sums of money, given the total NHS budget, sides are clearly focused on the UKIP vote and what we are not necessarily that great. If hospitals and doctors need to do to appeal to that. There are, however, too are to query the entitlement of people who walk through many myths about immigration. It is a myth that we their door, given the nature of things the danger is that have not been allowed to talk about immigration during they will query those from visible minorities who may 223 Debate on the Address9 MAY 2013 Debate on the Address 224 well be not just British nationals, but third-generation Another measure missing from the Queen’s Speech British nationals. What will that do for community that has tremendous public health implications is a cohesion? minimum price for alcohol. I am proud to tell the House that the Labour party’s policy is to support a Lyn Brown: One thing that worries me is that such minimum price for alcohol because there is a consensus— rhetoric could prevent people who are sick with again—among campaigners, doctors’ organisations and transmittable diseases from going to the doctors because anybody concerned about alcohol abuse, and even among they are worried about whether they are entitled to do some Government Members, that something must be so. That will cost us more, as people who are entitled to done about the deluge of cheap alcohol. We have gone health care pick up diseases. Does my hon. Friend agree from the situation in the 19th century when people were that such rhetoric will also cost more in terms of lives worried about pubs and clubs, to worrying about men, and serious illnesses in our communities? women and children buying cheap alcohol in the supermarket and corner shop and doing themselves real Ms Abbott: I am glad my hon. Friend raises that damage drinking at home. We are seeing rising levels of public health aspect of the rhetoric and the media liver disease as a result of the consumption of cheap narrative of stopping immigrants from approaching alcohol. At one point the Prime Minister said that he doctors and the health service. Many who are perfectly was persuaded by the arguments for a minimum price, entitled to approach their doctor will feel inhibited, and and brave statements were made by the Home Secretary. there is a danger of disease incubation—people might What happened then? Lynton Crosby came in as chief finally go to the health service only when they are far political adviser and the commitment to a minimum gone, which will cost a lot more. Another danger is price on alcohol disappeared, again to the detriment of communicable disease. The pronouncements on stopping the health of thousands of our people. immigrants from unwarrantedly accessing NHS health This is the Lynton Crosby Queen’s Speech. It is care are not just wrong, toxic and unworkable, but disgraceful that he is able to abuse his position as a inimical to good public health. political adviser to interfere with the legislative programme The Queen’s Speech is a Lynton Crosby public speech of this Government. The health of thousands of people partly because of the immigration theme that runs will suffer as a result of that interference, and the through it, which is all about rhetoric. The measures malign narrative on immigration that is being propagated will either not deliver or deliver in a minimalist way. All is no way to build social cohesion. It rests on myths, it does is heighten fears. The Government believe that it rather than facts, and is no way to build what we on the is to their advantage to do so. Opposition Benches would like to see: one nation politics. The Lynton Crosby effect is both what is in the speech and what is not in it. We know that his company, Crosby Textor, is on a retainer with British American 3.21 pm Tobacco in Australia to fight plain packaging. I put it to Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con): I enjoyed the House that it is no coincidence that a man who the start of this debate and I recognise that I have not made his considerable sums of money fighting plain been here for all of the speeches in between, so I am packaging in Australia turns up as the Conservative grateful for the chance to say a few words. party’s chief political strategist, and it suddenly drops its commitment to plain packaging. I want to follow on from the speech by the hon. Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington Dropping that commitment cannot be because of the (Ms Abbott) and the speech made yesterday by my hon. evidence. I do not ask the House to believe me on the Friend the Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston), who significance of plain packaging; the Under-Secretary of talked about the importance of public health. State for Health, the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry), who has responsibility for public health, said Back in 1986, I was made Minister with responsibility just weeks ago that she was persuaded having seen the for roads—painting white lines on national roads—and evidence—the Department of Health has seen the evidence. someone asked me what I was going to do to improve What happened between the Department of Health road safety. I asked how one measured the change in the forming a view on plain packaging and the Under-Secretary level of road safety. Within 20 minutes, we were discussing coming out in public in favour of it, and a Queen’s casualty reduction. Casualties can be counted, however Speech that does not mention it, even though it is the inaccurately. I asked what was the dominant factor, and preferred solution of medical experts and smoking cessation was told that young men drinking more than the legal campaigners? Lynton Crosby happened. The idea that limit of alcohol and then going driving mattered a lot. I thousands of people could have their health endangered received consistent advice from virtually every respected because of the malign influence of Lynton Crosby on group in the country that three things had to happen: Tory party policy is very regrettable. the legal limit had to be lowered, which would criminalise The House must remember that tobacco remains the more people; policing had to be stepped up; and penalties biggest cause of health inequalities in terms of death had to be increased. rates—it is more significant than any other factor. As I In those days, there were approximately 2 million have said, there is complete consensus, including among occasions a week when young men would drive a car the British Medical Association and medical and smoking having consumed more than the legal limit for alcohol. cessation campaigners, that plain packaging is a key They were not necessarily over the limit when they aspect in reducing levels of smoking and improving the drove. The number of drink-related deaths when the health of the population, but because Lynton Crosby driver or motorcycle rider was above the legal limit raises an eyebrow, it seems to have been dropped from when killed, or the passenger was killed, was 1,200 a the Queen’s Speech. year. 225 Debate on the Address9 MAY 2013 Debate on the Address 226

[Sir Peter Bottomley] plain packaging—it is not an argument I want to get into—what is certain is that smoking is a social disease: The figure now is between 200 and 250. Four-fifths of people pick it up because those around them are doing a socially acceptable, illegal, body-bending habit evaporated it. We need to change that culture. In effect, we need to with no change of law, no change of sentencing and no make smoking like picking your nose: it goes on, but it change to enforcement. should be in private, not public, and people should just Considering the difficulties that younger people face, disapprove. Before we changed the law, people did not whether they are our own children or somebody else’s, smoke in a church, chapel, temple, mosque or synagogue. does matter. If we had an 18-year-old who said, “Do It just was not done. It was not expected. you know that interest rates have been at 0.5% for a We must do for smoking what we did for drink-driving. long time, the rate of unemployment has fluctuated What was effective for drink-driving was, first, telling between this, that and the other, and the rate of inflation hosts, whether in a pub, club, party or at home, “Always on different measures is between this and that?” we have alcohol-free drinks within reach. No one should might say in response, “I hope you are doing A-level ever have to ask for an alcohol-free drink.” That is not economics.” just for drivers, but for those who are temperate, who If that 18-year-old said, “I am in court on Monday make up 10% of the population, for those who were on a serious criminal charge,” or “My husband”—or alcoholics, who also make up 10% of the population, wife, boyfriend or girlfriend, or a stranger—“and I have for those who are pregnant, those who want to be become pregnant; what should we do now?” or “I have pregnant, those who have drunk too much and those decided to become a lifelong smoker of 20 a day, seven who are on a diet—there are all kinds of reasons. packs a week, at more than £7 a pack in after-tax Secondly, we want to ensure that passengers pick an income, so you, the parent, are more likely to bury me alcohol-free driver. If I were going on a holiday to the than me bury you,” each of us might regard the second Costa Lot from Gatwick and saw the pilot coming out set of announcements as more significant and more of a bar and tottering slightly as he walked up the front important to us than interest rates, the rate of steps of the aeroplane, I might think, “This plane is not unemployment and the rate of inflation. for me”—planes can fly themselves, but cars cannot. In I estimate that the figures for those taking up crime my time, five young men would get into a car and drive for the first time to be about 1,800 a week. Those figures to the pub. Each would buy a round of drinks and four can be obtained by asking how many people get convicted passengers would get back into the car knowing that the each week for the first time, having committed an driver had had five drinks and that they had paid for offence for which the sentence could be six months or four of them. more. Thirdly, if like me someone drinks and drives, they When I first raised the matter, the Home Office should decide in advance which it is going to be that claimed it did not have the information, but it did—although night. If in years to come, I get held for drink-driving, it is probably now with the Ministry of Justice. As part people will point to this speech and say, “Ya-ha-ha, of our national statistics, those figures should be coming hypocrite!”, but the fact is that between host responsibility, out regularly, both nationally and regionally, so that the passenger choice and the drinking-driving choice, things media might start paying attention to how it is that so become much better. That has become the norm and many of our young people—a third of males by the age young people, instead of being four times as bad as of 30—have been convicted of a serious criminal offence. their parents, are probably four times as good. That is why I told the Home Secretary earlier that we I want to turn to sex. Between 40% and 45% of need to pay attention to the numbers who commit people in this country get involved in a conception that offences for the first time and for how long, on average, ends in a termination—a formal abortion. We have they go on doing so. There are relatively few lifelong nearly 400,000 abortions a year in this country, which is serious criminals. 40,000 a year more than we had 25 years ago, despite all In her speech yesterday, my hon. Friend the Member the sex and personal education, the availability of for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) said that 200,000 teenagers contraception, the advice and politicians saying, “Say took up smoking every year. If 40% of our young no.” people are taking up smoking—almost the same level as The only thing we cannot inherit from our parents is 25 years ago—all the measures taken since then, such as celibacy, unless we are conceived in a glass dish. We say removing promotions from the front of tobacconists to people, “Think about family planning or birth control.” and raising prices significantly, must have been inadequate. After a good party, we might think about having it off. Why and when do people take up smoking? Very few If we do, do we wait for the embarrassment afterwards take it up after the age of 21. It is something that of saying, “Cripes, we’ve conceived, we’ve already got teenagers take up. Ask a young person who is smoking, five children” or “What did you say your name was?”, “How old are you?”, and they might say, “I’m 15”, “I’m or “I know we’ve lived together for two years, but we 13” or “I’m 18”. If we say, “You’re too young to hadn’t planned this.”We need to give people the confidence smoke,” effectively we are saying, “You’re doing an to use more than the words “family planning” and adult thing.” We ought to say, “Oh dear, a child. Only “birth control”. It is a choice between what embarrassment children take it up. I’m sorry you’re one of them,” and people want: between talking beforehand about walk away. contraception or afterwards talking about the consequence We might also say to that child, “If you are a smoker, of having conceived. try not to be the first person to light up in any group We can drop down to the Dutch figures, which are and try not to smoke in front of someone who is one quarter of ours, in about six months, if we start younger than you.” Whatever the merits or demerits of using language that is helpful to people, as we did with 227 Debate on the Address9 MAY 2013 Debate on the Address 228 drink-driving. So often in Parliament, we use language misguided and that we would see a new focus on growth that does not relate to people in their homes, in their and jobs, rather than self-defeating austerity. Although lives or on the streets. It worked with drink-driving. that hope may have always been forlorn, I had at least Too often in politics we believe that the law is the hoped to see some progress on issues where I know the answer to questions. The law can make something into Government are not implacably opposed to progress. a crime, but it does not necessarily stop it happening—we Sadly, my constituents, and everyone else’s too, were let would not have 80,000 people in jail tonight if it did. down. The law can give people rights, but they cannot always I know that Ministers want headlines about immigration, use them. The law can also provide a system of dispute offender management and crime, but Home Office Ministers resolution, which can often be useful, but not always. had a chance to keep in with their colleagues in the There are some good things in the Queen’s Speech Department of Health, working with them to introduce about fairness, but if we rely too much on the law to a minimum unit price for alcohol and helping to put a make the changes that affect our social health, we will stop to some of the antisocial and criminal activities be relying on the wrong weapons or crutches. Openness that our people and police officers have to deal with, and language matter enormously. while at the same time saving lives and hard cash for our The last thing I want to talk about is fairness. One of under-pressure NHS. I will return to what Home Office the issues that came up at the end of the last Session Ministers should put before this House a little later. was leasehold reform. I believe we have to go much Like my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney North further. There are 3 million leaseholders in this country. and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott), I just cannot There was a time, 40 or 50 years ago, when George understand why Ministers have a blockage when it Thomas—later Lord Tonypandy, but in between the comes to taking opportunities to improve our society occupant of the Speaker’s Chair—was campaigning for by making it safer and healthier. Despite laudable statements leasehold reform because so many people living in the about the need to tackle smoking and excessive drinking, terraces in the Welsh valleys were being exploited by the there is no sign of legislation to combat them. However, leasehold system. I hear that the Prime Minister said again yesterday—after Leasehold enfranchisement came. Now we have leasehold the Queen’s Speech, that is—that measures on both valuation tribunals, which are supposed to be a cheap, smoking and drinking would be introduced, so where simple and effective way of resolving disputes between are they? The British Medical Association chair of leaseholders and freeholders and their managing agents. council, Dr Mark Porter, said he was “bitterly disappointed” There is an organisation called Lease that provides that standardised packaging for tobacco and the advice. It gets just over £1 million a year from the introduction of a minimum unit price for alcohol had Government, but it needs much more help. I am seeing been ditched, adding: Lease tomorrow and I hope to work with it to tell “If the government U-turns on its pledge to deal with alcohol Government what they need to do. and tobacco related harm, we will have to question its commitment to protecting the nation’s health”. There are two or three Departments involved: the Department for Communities and Local Government, The decision to drop a proposed Bill to introduce plain the Ministry of Justice and one other—I forget which packaging for cigarettes and tobacco, seemingly taken one. They need to put together a taskforce to analyse over the heads of the officials and Ministers who wanted why some cases do not get to a leasehold valuation it, robs us of an effective new tool to combat smoking. tribunal fast, why they cost far more to resolve than the Let us not forget that smoking is a major but preventable £500 advertised as the fee and why clever lawyers manage cause of death and disease, and the attitude that we to put down the leaseholders and let some freeholders—not should wait and see how Australia’s action works out all, but some—abuse the system. I will give the House represents a public health failure at a time when innovative one example of abuse. The freeholder, through their action is needed. An unattributed Government source managing agent, can arrange insurance and make the was quoted in The Sun as saying: leaseholders pay the premium without saying openly “Plain packaging may or may not be a good idea, but it’s what the commission is and without necessarily testing nothing to do with the Government’s key purpose. The Prime the market. That is just one example; I could give a Minister is determined to strip down everything we do so we can number of others. concentrate all our efforts on voters’ essentials. That means growth, immigration and welfare reform.” When we look at fairness, which is mentioned in the Queen’s Speech, let us hope that we can build it in and I would have thought the health of the nation was also a use this place to bring some of the issues into the open, key purpose. Perhaps the source should have added that so that they can be resolved properly by those who are the Government were also determined to keep in with doing things anyway, who can find ways of doing them the powerful tobacco and alcohol lobbies, whose coffers better. Doing things better is what matters most. It seem bottomless and whose tactics are shameless as certainly worked when I had responsibility for reducing they work to condemn generation after generation to casualties on the road; it can work in other fields as the respiratory diseases and cancers that their products well. cause. We know, thanks to documents produced by the tobacco industry, that it invests heavily in packet design 3.32 pm in order to appeal to specific target audiences, even Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): When young people. Can that be right? The tobacco lobbying Members of this House trooped along the corridor to industry keeps asserting that there is no evidence to the other place yesterday to listen to the Gracious suggest that that makes any difference. If that is the Speech, we hoped to hear some good news—perhaps an case, I wonder why great sums of money continue to admission that the Government’s economic policy was be spent on lobbying against this change, and on the 229 Debate on the Address9 MAY 2013 Debate on the Address 230

[Alex Cunningham] people. Not just doctors and nurses but also the families of problem drinkers who desperately want the government to do marketing itself. Surely the industry could save money something to help them help the people they love to kick the habit in both respects. We have to assume that it is either and to save their lives.” knowingly throwing good money after bad or not being I agree, and I had hoped that the Prime Minister would fully honest with us. Perhaps Home Office and other face down the alcohol industry lobbying and do the Minsters could also take an interest. Do the activities of right thing. Once again, however, the families of heavy the tobacco lobby—hiding behind the organisations drinkers and the victims of drink-fuelled antisocial that it funds, making false claims about its marketing behaviour have been let down, despite the stated views strategy and contributing so spectacularly to the ill of medical professionals, campaign groups and victims. health of our nation—constitute crimes against our Professor Steve Field, a Government NHS adviser, people? said: We know from research by the British Lung Foundation “On minimum unit pricing of alcohol we must not wimp out that smoking is a habit that people tend to take up at a of that decision. It’s vital for people’s health, particularly the young age. More than 200,000 children start smoking health of more vulnerable people. It will probably save around each year in the UK and around two thirds of smokers 1,000 lives a year and will also reduce admissions to hospital. It start before the age of 18. It is well known how hard it is will also reduce the burden of long-term care and it will also help to quit smoking. It is estimated that an enormous 70% with social cohesion because a lot of alcohol triggers violence, it triggers domestic abuse, and if you look at society as a whole, we of smokers continue to smoke despite wanting to quit. urgently have to do something about alcohol, of which” Plain packaging would help to de-glamorise the buying of cigarettes and show that we as a nation are serious minimum pricing about preventing children from taking up smoking. “is the first step. The government must take control and it’s up to There are also no proposals for action on introducing them.” a ban on smoking in cars when a child is present. I have I, too, regret the fact that the Government have passed put the case in this House for such a ban many times, up this opportunity. When the Minister winds up today’s including twice introducing private Members’ Bills. With debate, perhaps he will confirm whether the Government colleagues, I ensured that such provisions were tabled as are going to wimp out after all. a new clause to the Children and Families Bill. I hope If the Government are so preoccupied with tackling that, in the absence of other action, the Government the economic issues we face, I would have hoped to see a will back that new clause in a few weeks’ time when the better set of proposals to do just that. Instead, we see Bill comes back to the House on Report. That will be a yet more dithering, yet more fiddling around the edges wonderful opportunity for them to do a little thing to and yet more misdirected supply-side measures when a reduce the effects of smoking. lack of demand is what is holding us back. They should When I spoke to officials in the Department for have started with a jobs Bill. Unemployment, and Health, however, I was told that the Government were particularly youth unemployment, continue to hold us reluctant to go forward with a ban on smoking in cars back. My Stockton North constituency has a youth when a child is present because they were keeping their unemployment rate of 1,280 and general unemployment powder dry for a big fight with the tobacco industry stands on the cusp of 10%. Nationally, more than 1 over plain packaging. So when are we going to have that million young people are out of work. The Government fight? Not in this parliamentary year, it seems. Those have to do better by young people, who too often do not campaign groups, individual campaigners and concerned recover from early setbacks in their careers. parents who have contacted me and others to put the I do not have the precise figures on under-employment, case for a ban will be disappointed that the Government but anecdotal evidence suggests that we are suffering have taken action on neither issue. particularly acutely in the Stockton borough as more In retreat, the Government have essentially said to and more people are forced to take low-paid, part-time the tobacco industry that if it shouts loudly enough, jobs. We could create thousands of jobs—quality jobs—by puts enough adverts in national newspapers and has its replacing, for example, the huge number of police officers lobbyists exert as much pressure as they can muster, it that have been lost under this current Government. A will get its way and the Government will capitulate. If jobs Bill, as proposed by my right hon. Friends the the Government had had the courage, they would have Leader of the Opposition and the shadow Leader of introduced in the Gracious Speech a Bill to ensure that the House, would be a welcome start. That would see all cigarette packets had the same plain design, and to the introduction of a compulsory jobs guarantee, which ban smoking in cars when children were present. Those would ensure a paid job for every adult who is out of would have been bold, progressive moves that would work for more than two years. have been popular and right. A Labour jobs Bill would also guarantee a six-month It is not just tobacco that the Government have paid job for all young people out of work for over a capitulated on. The Home Secretary, the Prime Minister year, paid for by a bank bonus tax, with those offered a and others have promised a new approach to tackling job being required to take it. It would also require large alcohol abuse and binge drinking. I believe that that firms getting Government contracts to have an active could be done through minimum unit pricing, but that apprenticeship scheme to help ensure that opportunities is another policy that seems to have fallen down the to work for the next generation exist and that the back of the No. 10 settee. The British Medical Association’s Government are taking real and meaningful steps to director of professional services has urged the Prime promote them actively. Minister: “Be courageous: this is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to save We have seen the cost of living sky-rocket during this lives, to save the country money. Both of those are very good Parliament, with even those in work feeling the pinch. deals for him. And it will get him the thanks of an awful lot of Thanks to the Government’s refusal to get a grip on 231 Debate on the Address9 MAY 2013 Debate on the Address 232 energy costs, the perverse decision to increase VAT and who are having their tax credits and housing benefit cut the cut in in-work benefits, people in my constituency will struggle to see how what the Government are are feeling the pinch like never before. Prices are rising saying to us here in this Chamber matches up with what faster than wages, and people are now £1,700 a year they are doing to people around the country. There are worse off than they were in May 2010. Even my local simply not enough jobs for people to go into. The vast fish and chip shop in Norton village is getting battered majority of people who are sitting at home are not by this Government! A drop in demand means that it doing so because they do not want to work: they are has to close earlier and reduce staff hours so that staff being failed by a Government who are unwilling or wages are much lower. unable to get growth in the economy and to create the The Government should have taken Labour’s advice jobs they desperately need. to cut VAT back down to 17.5%. They should have This Government have cut public sector jobs in my taken real action on fuel bills, introduced tough new constituency. By now they have, I think, given up repeating fare caps on train routes and brought greater regulation the mantra that the private sector will sweep in and to bear on estate agents who routinely rip off those in make up for all the jobs they have cut. If any Minister the private rented sector. My party have shown that we wants to come to my constituency and talk about how are willing to take action across the board to tackle the the private sector can be helped to grow, they will be injustices and iniquities of the private sector where it is very welcome, but so far that growth is not happening, not working in the best interests of all of those who rely and we face an unemployment crisis. on it. As the Labour party, we are willing to go where The national insurance holiday, which we first heard the Government are not—making the interventions about in the Budget, is welcome. Indeed, it is very that will boost public health, tackle unemployment and similar to the scheme we were calling for, but it is three ensure that those who are in work get a fair deal from years too late. The Government should have introduced the businesses with which they interact. it much earlier. Instead, we have we have had three years This Government’s failures border on the criminal. of flatlining growth. The Gracious Speech was a chance to correct some of The Gracious Speech contains no real plans to get the Government’s wrongs; sadly, what we have ahead the economy back on track, and nor are there any plans next year is a programme that is light on legislation and to help people struggling with the rising cost of living. light on action—above all, it is a missed opportunity. All we have had is more of the same from an out-of-touch Government: no answers and nothing to say to the 3.43 pm people of this country. Gemma Doyle (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op): I Scotland is being hammered by two Governments am grateful for the opportunity to contribute to today’s that are one and the same, both putting misguided debate. Yesterday’s Gracious Speech was, I think, the ideology ahead of necessary action and legislation, and third since I was elected to represent West Dunbartonshire both bereft of ideas when Scotland needs solutions. in 2010. As with the previous two, however, I am afraid When Labour delivered devolution to Scotland, we did that yesterday’s was simply another wasted opportunity so in order to create aspiration and achievement in the by a Government who should be getting to grips with good times, and to protect the people of Scotland from the real challenges facing the UK. As other Members the worst excesses of a Tory Government in the bad have mentioned, yesterday’s speech was more important times. We could now have a Scottish Government using for what it did not include than for what it contained. their ingenuity to bring forward creative proposals, but Across the UK, people are really struggling. They we do not have that. They could, and should, be straining may be unable to get a job because of the flatlining every sinew and using every mechanism at their disposal economy or struggling to make ends meet because of to help the Scottish people, but instead they are standing the cost-of-living crisis. I can assure Members and on the sidelines, and today the Scottish National party Ministers that the people of West Dunbartonshire are is not even interested in turning up to debate these absolutely no different; in fact, they are at the sharp end issues—I think there was a brief intervention from one of this Government’s crisis. The Prime Minister promised SNP Member at the very beginning of this debate . there would be a change for the better when he went The Scottish Government are standing on the sidelines into Downing street in 2010, but the truth is that things and rubber-stamping Tory measures such as the bedroom are getting much worse, not better. In West Dunbartonshire tax. They have passed no legislation to protect people unemployment is up, youth unemployment is up and from this policy. They have done nothing to help councils long-term youth unemployment is now 10 times the and housing associations in Scotland deal with the level it was in May 2010—more than 1,000 young fallout from the bedroom tax. In fact, just last week I people are looking for a job. It is an absolute scandal. was told in confidence of a Scottish Government official It does not look as though things will be changing who had a civil servant who let it slip that they had been any time soon. Currently in my constituency, more than told that everything they do must be about winning the 12 people are chasing every job—and, almost unbelievably, referendum. That is absolutely scandalous, because power the number has been as high as 40 people out of work is a privilege and it must be exercised with caution and for every advertised job in the last three years. In fact, I in the best interests of the people. At the moment, in frequently hear of jobs—part-time jobs that do not Scotland, it is being used in a desperate attempt to win a require any skills or qualifications—for which more campaign that is not about the interests of the Scottish than 100 people have applied. That, if nothing else, people; it is about the interests of the First Minister. should be setting off alarm bells for this Government. There is an alternative for people throughout the Yet the Government repeatedly say they want to whole of the UK: Labour’s plans in our alternative reward those in work; indeed, the Home Secretary said Queen’s Speech offer the real change that this country so in her opening remarks today. However, those in work needs. I urge Ministers to look at it, because it gets to 233 Debate on the Address9 MAY 2013 Debate on the Address 234

[Gemma Doyle] people coming through the airports last summer. Those problems need to be tackled, and we do not want to see grips with the issues they need to deal with. It includes a a repeat of that. jobs Bill, to introduce a compulsory jobs guarantee; a The Government are still failing to acknowledge that consumers Bill, to tackle rip-off energy bills and train things have got worse and not better on their watch, fares; and a finance Bill to kick-start the economy, to including on deportations of foreign criminals, where get it moving again. Those are the changes and the the number has decreased. Surely the first step to solving things that people out there want to see. problems is to accept responsibility. It is not good Our plans also include an alternative immigration enough to keep blaming other people, whether they are Bill with real economic powers to put an end to workers officials in the UKBA or elsewhere, or indeed the having their wages illegally undercut by employers exploiting system, as the Home Secretary did earlier—she blamed migrant labour; it would double the fines for breaching the appeals system. She presides over that system, so the minimum wage and give local councils the powers she needs to get to grips with it. to take enforcement action. Those are the things we It is worth recapping some of the facts and the want to see happen. However, the plans that we heard failures: the backlog in finding failed asylum seekers from the Government yesterday and from the Home has gone up; the number of illegal immigrants who have Secretary earlier today fail to deal with the big problems been deported has gone down; the number of foreign to do with the exploitation of foreign workers to undercut prisoners who have been removed has gone down; the local workers. The Queen’s Speech was also very much a number of businesses fined for employing illegal workers missed opportunity to tackle the problem of illegal has gone down; fingerprint checks on illegal migrants at immigration. We want to see a much fairer system of Calais have been stopped; basic security checks on controls and limits on students, cutting the number of 100,000 missing asylum and immigration cases have bogus students but ensuring that we have a much more been dropped; and the e-Borders technology has been effective system for the migration we need. Legitimate delayed. I do not know how anyone could describe that students should not be targeted by the Government to as anything but a catalogue of failure. bring immigration down; they are an easy target but not The Government must get this issue right. The plans the right one. that they announced yesterday have been found wanting. There are things that the Home Secretary could be I hope that they have listened to some of our proposals, doing, but she is not. The new Schengen information and that when the immigration Bill comes forward we system, which will share information on migrants travelling will be able to get it right. Unfortunately, at the moment within the EU, will guarantee the authenticity of documents we are simply getting more of the same from an out-of- and help to identify illegal immigrants. So far, for some touch Government: no ideas, no answers, and nothing reason, the Home Secretary has failed to sign up to to suggest. People across the UK deserve an awful lot that—she is refusing to do it. Unlike some Government better. Members, I am not scared of immigration, because our country has benefited greatly from it, just as other 3.55 pm countries have benefited from emigration from this Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab): I am most country. My hon. Friend the Member for Slough (Fiona grateful to you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for calling me to Mactaggart), in her contribution, set out well the beneficial speak in this important Queen’s Speech debate. It is also impact that immigration has had on her town. Indeed, I a great pleasure to follow the eloquent and thoughtful suspect that few Members of the House are not partly contribution of my hon. Friend the Member for West the product of a story that involves immigration at Dunbartonshire (Gemma Doyle). some point in the tale. I begin by welcoming some things in the Queen’s There are issues that need to be addressed, and unless Speech. First, I welcome the inclusion of Bills for High the Government get to grips with the problems, immigration Speed 2. I fully support the project which cannot come will continue to be an easy scapegoat and the byword a day too soon, because faster and better infrastructural for all the problems faced by the Government. Immigration links to Birmingham, to the north-west and, ultimately, should not be the scapegoat, but that is what they are to Crewe, with proper connections to various regions, using it for at the moment. I therefore urge the Government will bring great benefits for businesses, tourists and to deal with firms that are not paying the national other travellers to and from my north-east Wales minimum wage, with recruitment agencies that are only constituency. I welcome those Bills and I only hope that advertising and using overseas labour, and with the the project moves on as speedily as possible, because it slum landlords profiting from substandard and overcrowded is absolutely vital. housing. There is nothing in the Government plans to Secondly, I welcome the carry-over of the Marriage deal with those three pressing key issues. I hope that the (Same Sex Couples) Bill. It will be a very proud moment Government are anticipating our amendments to their indeed for this House and for this country when it is on Bill, which the Leader of the Opposition has stated that the statute book. we will table, and that they might work with us and support those amendments. Thirdly, I welcome the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill, but I would welcome it even more if The Home Secretary did announce plans to break up budgets such as that for North Wales police were not the UK Border Agency. I agree that reform of the facing cuts of 20% and antisocial behaviour orders were UKBA is absolutely needed; all of us who deal with not being scrapped. I welcome the inclusion in the Bill casework involving the UKBA would recognise that. of gun-related laws, but I hope that the Home Secretary Serious issues need to be fixed and tackled; we have and her team will consider carefully the points about seen lower levels of enforcement and huge delays for gun ownership and those with a history of domestic 235 Debate on the Address9 MAY 2013 Debate on the Address 236 violence that were made earlier by my right hon. Friend provisions on drugs and driving. It is in the spirit of the Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford welcoming this change that I call on the Government to (Yvette Cooper). We only have to see what has happened be bolder on the issue. in America and the power of the National Rifle Association I have raised in the House before the case of Robert there to know what the power of the gun lobby can be James Gaunt. Robert was a nine-year-old boy who was like, and we in this country also need to be vigilant tragically killed in March 2009 while crossing the road about it. in the village of Overton in my constituency by a driver I welcome the chance to discuss immigration in this with no licence or insurance, who failed to stop. He was House. Indeed, as some Members have said, it has a driver who did not report the accident and, even happened at fairly regular intervals and I do not believe worse, who attempted to cover up his crime by re-spraying it is an issue we should be frightened of. We should his car. For ending the life of this innocent young boy, discuss it in a sensible and constructive way. If there is a the driver incurred a pitiful sentence of 22 months. That debate more widely in the country, it would be foolish was at the very limit of what was possible under the law for us not to follow and listen and respond thoughtfully for that offence. When 1,300 people signed the Justice to the points that are made and to deal with them in for Robert petition to back longer sentences for this legislation. crime, I promised to stand up for Robert’s memory on their behalf and I will continue to raise the issue here in There are some serious issues and omissions that the the House. Government need to address. Why is more not being I hope the Government will therefore support my done to tackle the use of foreign labour to undercut ten-minute rule Bill that comes to the House this summer. local workers? As residents of Black Park and Chirk in It will call for the Government to undertake a review of my constituency told me at the last election, how can it the maximum penalties for driving offences that lead to be right that some jobs are advertised only in eastern death or serious injury, for I believe that this measure European languages for agency workers and offer only and any like it that speak up for road safety cannot the worst possible terms of employment? The constituents come a day too soon, and I trust that Ministers will who ask those questions, and others like them, are listen sympathetically to my request on this vital issue. absolutely right to do so.

Also, what are we to make of the fact that there have 4.3 pm been no prosecutions for breaches of the national minimum wage in the past two years when a recent King’s college Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab): I am not study found that between 150,000 and 250,000 workers alone in being disappointed with the Queen’s Speech as in the care sector alone are being paid below the national it failed to deal with any of the real issues and challenges minimum wage? Is it any wonder that many people in facing our country, such as 1 million young unemployed, this country are angry when such abuses go unpunished? the rise in the cost of living, especially for those on low Why can we not extend the Gangmasters Licensing wages, no investment in the growth of our economy, Authority to other sectors? and no real reform of the banking system. The Chancellor said that his austerity measures would bring the budget On immigration, it is beyond belief that the Government deficit down by 2015. He has already accepted that that are considering the measures that they have announced. will not happen, and the triple A rating which he I remember that two or three years ago we were told considered a holy grail has also gone. In real terms he is that a national register for landlords would be impossible. borrowing even more to balance the budget. The GDP It would be too bureaucratic and difficult for the landlords, to national debt ratio is heading towards 80%. and would add red tape to the work that they already did, yet now we are told that landlords are expected to When Labour came to power in 1997, the GDP ratio be almost the main body policing the system of immigration to the national debt was 42%. By early 2008, it was by identifying illegal tenants. It is nonsense that on the down to 35%, just before the global recession started. one hand the Govt can say it is too bureaucratic to do The Government then had to act to save the banks and that, and on the other they can pass the buck straight avoid a worsening financial crisis. As a result, they had on to landlords. to borrow additional money, and the national debt went up, but figures show that by 2010, the GDP ratio to the There are some issues that never made it into the national debt began to fall again. However, with the Queen’s Speech. Plain packaging for cigarettes is one; a austerity measures of the current Chancellor, without a lobbying Bill is another. Dare I say that I suspect the growth plan for the economy, the GDP ratio to the two are rather intimately connected? My party would national debt is now some 80%. have brought in a new jobs guarantee Bill. It is a pity that none of these will make it on to the statute book, as These figures are important because it is often said all would have been a credit to this House and would that the Labour Government left the country in an have brought long-term social and economic benefits. economic mess, but the Opposition know that that is not the case, because the facts and figures from the Finally, I turn to another matter that I would like to Treasury and other Departments show that we were have seen in this Queen’s Speech, one that I know has financially prudent. It is not just me who says that; that great support across the political spectrum and has famous Left-wing body, the International Monetary been raised in various guises in this House by various Fund, has said the same. It has stated clearly that the Members, including me on numerous occasions. I refer actions taken by the previous Prime Minister and the to death or serious injury on the roads caused by Chancellor were the right ones in light of the situation uninsured, unlicensed or careless drivers. In last year’s that we faced and—these words are important—the debate on the Queen Speech, I welcomed the aspects of global recession. Much as the Labour Government the Crime and Courts Bill that brought into effect new would have liked to control the whole world, we certainly 237 Debate on the Address9 MAY 2013 Debate on the Address 238

[Yasmin Qureshi] With cuts of 35% on criminal advocates’ fees already coming in, all we will see is the really experienced and did not run the USA or Japan, or any of the other talented lawyers simply not practising criminal law and advanced nations, but they experienced a similar global inexperienced newcomers taking up cases instead. crisis. That is important: it was a global crisis and had There might not be much sympathy for people charged nothing to do with the suggestion that somehow the with criminal offences, but I believe that in this country Labour Government were financially mismanaging the we still have the principle that someone is innocent until economy. If anyone is mismanaging the economy, it is proven guilty. Being able to defend oneself from the current Government, who are borrowing £164 billion incarceration in the criminal justice system is a fundamental extra to cover the budget deficit. part of a democratic society. That is something we It makes sense that, if one is not going to invest in the should be proud of, not something we should try to economy, if there are to be no jobs in the economy, and hide or do away with by making it harder for people to if people are not paying their taxes, the revenue that a access criminal legal aid. Price-competitive tendering Government receive will obviously be less. In order to will have a great impact on our criminal justice system. continue to meet the budget deficit, they will have to A sad thing in politics in this country is that for a borrow more, which is exactly what the Chancellor has number of years now there has been constant criticism done. As a result we now have a higher national debt, of our judges when they take decisions that the Executive the economy is not moving, and again the famous are not happy with. I practised law for more than 20 Left-wing socialist institution, the IMF, has said that years, in different courts, and there were times when I the Government need to change their course. The did not agree with the judge’s decision, but I did not Chancellor needs to change his course. He must bring in start bad-mouthing the judge. Instead, we had a system programmes and investment to stimulate growth in the of appeal that allowed us to take the matter further so economy. Austerity alone will not be enough. Those that someone more senior could consider it, because who have suffered the most from the austerity and cuts errors can occur and it can be useful to have another have been the disabled, the elderly, those on low wages, pair of eyes to look at decisions that have been taken. and often women with small children. Their economic Surely that is the only proper way for politicians to situation has been made worse, and their cost of living behave in cases involving judges. has risen the most. Our judges are of a very high calibre. They are not But the Government are not just satisfied with taking ignorant people who do not know about the real world. away people’s economic rights and financially hitting They know what the real world is like and they know them; they are also taking away some basic civil rights. the law. I think it is about time politicians across all The cuts to civil legal aid for bodies such as the employment, political parties started giving the judiciary the respect health and disability tribunals, and in family cases, has it deserves. Ultimately, an independent judiciary is very meant that many people are now unrepresented. There much a hallmark of a civilized democratic society. That have been cuts to funding for the citizens advice bureaux, is something we should be proud of in this country. We which last year in Bolton South East saw 14,000 people should not constantly be denigrating judges. who were suffering, including the vulnerable, disadvantaged and poor, and those on low incomes, and now they will Things that we now take as being accepted were not suffer even more. If they have a problem, they will not accepted 20 years ago, and that is because our judges be able to go to a tribunal. They will have no legal have effectively been applying the law in a way that has representation and there will be no one to explain their benefited many people. For example, it is now perfectly rights to them. acceptable to take on a public authority or a Department for any wrongdoing. That was not the case until a There are further proposals to cut criminal legal aid, number of years ago. It is only because our judges have which again affects ordinary people most. We hear said that public authorities and bodies should be about the famous few rich defendants, the big criminals, accountable and scrutinised that that is now accepted as but the majority of those who face criminal charges are normal business in this country. That was very much not the rich, but ordinary people. The myth that all down to judges. criminal lawyers earn millions and millions of pounds is another complete lie. Yes, there is the odd Queen’s Many years ago, Lord Denning brought in the equitable counsel or barrister who will earn that sort of money principle in the famous High Trees House case. I know from legal aid, but more than 95% of the members of that ex-lawyers sometimes tend to go on about the law, the Bar and people practising criminal law earn nowhere but I mention that case because it was the first time near that. In fact, their earnings are often very average, people in common law partnerships, especially women, compared with those in other sectors. The idea that the were given some rights over the properties in which they majority of barristers somehow get £1 million a year lived and were looking after the children but where they from legal aid is a complete distortion of the truth. In were not the income winners and had no rights at all. fact, it is a complete lie. That case allowed them to have some rights. We have a The Ministry of Justice now wants to introduce lot to be grateful to our judges for, so denigrating them something called price-competitive tendering, which will is just not right. If a Government are not happy with a undermine access to justice and damage our judicial judge’s decision, they have a mechanism of appeal, and system. People should be able to choose a lawyer on the the final appeal is to the Supreme Court, which is full of basis of quality, rather than being given the one with very eminent and high-calibre people who make the the lowest price. Price-competitive tendering will force decisions. bidders to tender at least 17.5% below the current I am disappointed that the Gracious Speech did not magistrates’ rates, and if they get the contract they will deal with some of the health issues that are big challenges also be able to continue working in the Crown courts. for our society, such as drinking and smoking. Everyone 239 Debate on the Address9 MAY 2013 Debate on the Address 240 accepts that cigarettes cause cancer and many other 4.19 pm illnesses. This was an opportunity for the Government, Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): I am glad to have who said themselves that they want to deal with this, the opportunity to speak in this debate. It is interesting but it seems that because of powerful lobbyists and that we should hear the Government’s plans so soon other groups plain packaging is now off the agenda and after so many of us had the opportunity to listen to the alcohol is not being tackled. Members have already voice of the people in the county council elections in the talked about the impact of alcohol and cigarettes on shire counties of England. people’s lives and the illnesses they cause. It is therefore I spent almost all of the previous four weeks home in sad and regrettable that this action has not taken place. the beautiful shire county of Derbyshire, specifically in Another disappointing aspect of the Queen’s Speech my home town of Chesterfield. For those few short relates to immigration. It is right that there should be a weeks we Derbyshire people seemed to be very popular debate about immigration, and nobody is running away among the political class. The Prime Minister came to from that. People who have come to this country should Derbyshire twice during the campaign, as did my right be able to claim benefit if they have paid taxes to the hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster North (Edward Treasury. If they have not made those contributions, it Miliband), to whom we were grateful for also visiting us is right that they should not be able to benefit from after the campaign to join our celebrations. The Chancellor welfare provision. No one is arguing that that is wrong. also came to see us, as did the Home Secretary, who However, the Government, who are trying to deal with took in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member UKIP in a knee-jerk reaction to what happened recently, for Bolsover (Mr Skinner). I believe she saw the beautiful have brought in policies requiring landlords and doctors Crooked Spire church, which, I am sure she was told—I to act as policemen. Instead, they should be making do not know whether a plaque has been put up there sure that the border is being patrolled properly so that yet—is where I got married. If that information has people are not coming into the country illegally. They escaped her, I am glad to be able to remind her of it. should also be making sure that the UK Border Agency It is hardly surprising that Derbyshire was the focus becomes more effective in dealing with people who of so much attention. No Government have lost in should not be in this country and should be sent back. Derbyshire and won the country since the war. The verdict That is the way to deal with it; it is the state’s responsibility. of the people of Derbyshire was pretty clear: a huge win Making individual citizens act as spies is wrong; it is for Labour, with 43 Labour councillors compared with like George Orwell’s society coming to fruition. Yes, 18 Conservatives, just three Lib Dems and not a UKIP some big landlords with thousands of homes in their councillor in sight. UKIP if you want to, but the people property portfolios might be able to carry out the of Derbyshire certainly did not. It was a triumph for Labour searches suggested by the Government, but in my leader Anne Western and the Labour team at county hall. constituency a lot of people who have a small home and In electoral terms it was a decisive win, with Labour may be renting one room will now be criminalised if majorities in many seats that we hope to win in 2015. they do not carry out certain checks. That is plain Despite the victory, however, those of us who spent wrong, as is asking doctors to spy on people. The considerable time on the doorsteps could not escape the Government and the law enforcement agencies should sense of despair among voters—the sense that politics be patrolling these things, not creating a snooping society. should be capable of offering so much more, that our That is completely the wrong approach. Government are running out of ideas and that our great country, which fought off the massed forces of fascism The Queen’s Speech did nothing at all to try to from 1939 onwards, had the vision to create the national stimulate our economy. We would have liked a jobs Bill health service, has been present at the birth of so many that meant a paid job for every adult who had been out of the world’s great inventions and is home to some of of work for more than two years; guaranteed six months’ the greatest educational establishments in the world, pay for young people; a requirement—this is very important should be capable of so much more. bearing in mind the wholesale privatisation that is taking The Queen’s Speech had Crosby’s fingerprints are all place under this Government—that large firms should over it. They left quite a mark—besmirched it, we might agree to apprenticeship schemes whenever they are given say—but as my right hon. Friend the Member for a Government contract; a Finance Bill that reversed the Doncaster North said yesterday, the speech failed completely VAT rise and the 10p tax rate; and a consumer Bill that to grasp the magnitude of the moment. It is ironic that dealt with rising energy costs, which now average £300, the person in charge of the Government’s xenophobia and rail fares, which are going up by 9%. The rail strategy is himself an immigrant. I am from a family of companies should be offering people the cheapest available immigrants: my family have only been in the UK since fare, not expecting them to search around for hours on about 1066. In fact, Her Majesty, who gave the Gracious end trying to find a good deal. We should ensure that Speech, has Germanic roots herself. We should embrace energy companies are regulated properly and are not our country’s history and the fact that it is made up of exploiting the consumer. Despite everything that has so many different people. been said, banks are still not lending enough to small businesses, which are the backbone of our country. A Is this really it? Is this all the Government have to specialised British investment bank should have been offer? The response to the drubbing that the Conservatives set up, with regional banks to support businesses. We took is a dog whistle here, a hint at red meat there, more should force banks to lend to small companies so that divide and rule, and no overarching vision for the kind they can grow and create employment. of country that this Government aim to create before leaving power. The content of the Gracious Speech is a real damp What is this Government’s vision? They have lost the squib. It was an opportunity for this Government to be triple A status and there has been no reduction in the visionary, but they have been nothing of the kind. deficit in the past year. What do they want the last two 241 Debate on the Address9 MAY 2013 Debate on the Address 242

[Toby Perkins] Let me touch on other reasons why Derbyshire’s voters rejected the Government. On banking, we needed years of their cruel, divisive, incompetent and directionless to see real reform. Government net lending has fallen reign to be about? The Home Secretary seems to think in 18 of the last 24 months as more and more of the it is funny, but the people of Derbyshire were not Government’s money has been given to the same big laughing when they reflected on her and her party’s four banks. That was a problem when the Government record last week. Austerity has failed, so what is the came to power, and yet it has got worse in month after alternative vision for which this Government will be month. Failed Government strategy follows failed remembered? Will they now simply indulge in the most Government strategy. In the three months to February pernicious kind of blame game? If the Government 2013, there was an additional £4.8 billion fall in lending have no vision or cannot agree on what they want to do, to small businesses. let us have a general election and give the people of this Labour proposes something bigger. We propose a country some real alternatives. local banking network to put banks back at the heart of All we have seen on immigration is incompetence and their communities. There must be a fundamental change confusion. Only one in 1,000 students suspected of in decision making to ensure that decisions about businesses abusing the immigration system have been deported. are taken by people who understand those businesses, Some 106,000 cases reported by universities have led to not by somebody 70 miles away. Bank lending should just 153 deportations. More worryingly, only 658 cases no longer focus more and more on London; there must were even investigated. be proper regional and local banking that sees money lent to small businesses within local communities. At the very same time that the Government are doing The people cannot be fooled. They know that they so little to investigate potential abuses of the system, we are worse off under this Government than before 2010. have seen a big drop-off in the entirely legitimate and They will be £891 worse off by 2015. They know that indeed vital numbers of foreign students, who offer there is a cost-of-living crisis, but they have seen no revenue for our universities. At recent meetings with action on train fares, payday loans or fuel costs. They representatives from Sheffield, Leeds and the university have seen no action on the construction industry at a of London, they have all highlighted problems resulting time when it is struggling. Labour has proposed a from the reduction in foreign student numbers. reduction in the VAT on home improvements to 5%, We get the benefit of highly qualified workers when which is supported by the Federation of Small Businesses. some of these students stay on. Often they return to Young people face a jobs crisis. Let us end the debate on their countries as the greatest advocates of life in Britain whether they want work or not. Let us expose those and are vital to our ability to trade. We all want to see who do not by having a jobs guarantee that ensures that an increase in exports and foreign students are an all young people know that they will have an opportunity important means by which that can be achieved. to get into work. The Government’s immigration fiasco does not end There is no serious growth strategy. The only growth there. When I speak to businesses across the country in strategy seems to be, “Let’s see if we can get kids to buy my capacity as a shadow business Minister, I am constantly fags or get people to drink themselves stupid on cheap upbraided by businesses—technological and manufacturing supermarket booze.” The Government have dropped firms in particular—about how much of an obstacle to the plans for plain cigarette packaging and minimum success the confusion on immigration is. alcohol pricing that the Prime Minister promised. Where was the promised legislation on pub companies that we People are concerned that UK workers are undercut expected to hear about in the Queen’s Speech? We must in the jobs market and that the Government turn a support our pubs. We must ensure that more people blind eye to abuses of the minimum wage. Indeed, with drink in them and that less people drink at home, where their workfare policy, they seem as keen as ever to send much more problem drinking occurs. out the message that people should be grateful for what they get and to push more workers into poverty. People As colleagues have said, the Queen’s Speech was an are concerned that foreign workers, legal and illegal, are opportunity for the Government to show that they had working for less than the minimum wage. The fuzzy line listened to the message that came from people across between the cost of housing and work is enabling the country last week and to show that they have a unscrupulous firms to exploit workers’ desire to put strategy to do something about the problems that face money on the table. I am talking not about those who us. We now know that the Government will not take the do not contribute, but about the very people who are serious action that is required, but will limp on with the fighting day and night to earn enough money so that Liberals and Conservatives unsure about what they can their family can eat. Where was the Government’s agree on. The Queen’s Speech has demonstrated that acknowledgement of their failure to enforce the national this is a mongrel Government without a proper agenda. minimum wage? Where was the Bill to tighten up the The country is ready for something better. rules to ensure that those loopholes are closed? People are concerned about recruitment agencies that 4.29 pm recruit only migrant and foreign labour. That is why Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): This has been, as Labour proposes that the system be toughened up to usual, a good and positive debate that has covered a ensure that firms that act in that way are stopped and range of issues on home affairs and justice, in particular that British workers get a fair crack of the whip when those relating to immigration, antisocial behaviour and they are trying to get into the jobs market. Where was preventing reoffending. A number of other contributions the Government’s commitment to do something about have covered a wider range of political issues, including that? Is it any wonder that the voters in Derbyshire comments on care standards in Wales by my hon. rejected the governing parties so wholeheartedly last week? Friend the Member for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith), 243 Debate on the Address9 MAY 2013 Debate on the Address 244 on the role of HS2 by the hon. Member for South contributions by my hon. Friends the Members for Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom) and on energy Slough (Fiona Mactaggart), for Hackney North and by the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert). Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) and for Chesterfield Many strong concerns were raised about the economy, (Toby Perkins), who expressed their strong views about including by my hon. Friend the Member for West the benefits of immigration to this country. Immigrants Dunbartonshire (Gemma Doyle), who made a pertinent have made this country what it is, and we must ensure point about the role of the Scottish National party in that we reflect their importance in any legislation brought Scotland. My hon. Friend the Member for Bishop forward, as the hon. Member for Cambridge said. Auckland (Helen Goodman) mentioned broadband, My hon. Friend the Member for Brent North (Barry and my hon. Friends the Members for Llanelli (Nia Gardiner) indicated that the measures could lead to Griffith) and for Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi), policy and implementation problems on housing, and spoke strongly about the economy. My hon. Friend for Government Members such as the hon. Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones) made a passionate South Northamptonshire spoke in support of the and heartfelt speech, again on the economy. We also immigration Bill. From my perspective, that Bill features heard a strong plea from my hon. Friend the Member limited measures that fail to deal with the big problems for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham) about plain highlighted by my right hon. Friend the Member for packaging for cigarettes. Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford, such as exploitation I am sure Ministers in other Departments will read of foreign workers and undercutting the local work force, and cogitate on those issues in due course, but I want to and it is a missed opportunity to tackle illegal immigration, focus on matters of home affairs and justice. Immigration, which is getting worse. antisocial behaviour and the prevention of reoffending The measures in the immigration Bill are limited. are extremely important. I know that not only from Legislation on article 8 matters is already under having heard this debate, but from experiences in my consideration. As my right hon. Friend has said, the constituency. As the hon. Member for Enfield North Government allowed the deportation of 900 fewer foreign (Nick de Bois) said of his constituency, not a surgery or criminals in 2012 compared with Labour’s last year in week goes by in which I do not receive correspondence office. For part of that year, I happened to be the Justice on the pressing issue of antisocial behaviour, which Minister responsible for deporting foreign criminals, impacts on real people’s lives, day in, day out. and signed the agreement with Nigeria that the Government My constituency in north Wales has seen an influx of trumpet as one of their great achievements. people from eastern Europe who came to work in large There are current regulations in the Department for numbers because there were skill shortages and the Work and Pensions guidance to deal with limiting benefits economy demanded them. They now face big issues, for EU nationals, and the Government have looked at which have been touched on by hon. Members, concerning the issues of private landlords. The hon. Member for the role of agency workers, the undercutting of the Crawley (Henry Smith), who spoke about migrant access minimum wage, and the difficulties and challenges of to the NHS, should know that hospitals already have housing. Those are key issues in my constituency, as the legal duty to recover any charges owed from overseas elsewhere. patients. The most important issue highlighted by my Let me set out what the Opposition welcome in the right hon. Friend was tough action, including substantial Queen’s Speech. My right hon. Friend the Member for fines, on businesses that use illegal labour. Eight hundred Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper) fewer businesses have been fined for employing illegal hinted at some of the issues, and I wish to reaffirm workers—2,092 were fined in 2010, but only 1,215 were those commitments today. We broadly welcome the fined in 2012. details on the College of Policing, and will look in detail The tools are there, and we will scrutinise the immigration at how to ensure it set standards in an appropriate way. measures, but as my right hon. Friend has indicated, the We welcome measures on dog control and gun manufacture, Government could do more. I would welcome clarification and we look at those in detail although we may wish to from the Minister on the NHS proposals. Will they be strengthen them in due course. I welcome the important in the immigration Bill or the national health service regulation on forced marriage, and particularly proposals Bill? He will know that Wales, Scotland and Northern on police accountability and extending the role of the Ireland have devolved health services. I would welcome Independent Police Complaints Commission to private clarification from him on how the proposals will work sector contractors—an equally important issue mentioned in practice in terms of costs and access to the NHS, previously by my right hon. Friend. because Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland provide As a member of the shopworkers union, I welcome locally based health services that are accountable to the action on shoplifting, and we will look at strengthening Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland Ministers. that important measure against retail crime. I will look We need to look carefully at the local residency test, in detail—the provisions have only been published today—at because councils can already set residency tests on issues to do with the police negotiating board. We will housing matters. I would rather the Minister looked at reflect on that and undoubtedly be constructive, as I the issues my right hon. Friend has mentioned—labour always try to be, when the Anti-social Behaviour Crime market issues. She was supported by my hon. Friends and Policing Bill is in Committee. the Members for Slough, for Llanelli and for Clwyd We must also consider the important issues of South (Susan Elan Jones), and the right hon. Member immigration, antisocial behaviour and crime. We will for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd). How can we judge the relevant Bills, and hopefully be constructive enforce the minimum wage and strengthen rules on on their effective measures. On immigration, the gangmasters? How can we ensure we extend the Government are proposing a number of measures Gangmasters Licensing Authority? How can we prevent that we will consider in detail. I particularly welcomed rogue landlords from exploiting migrant workers by 245 Debate on the Address9 MAY 2013 Debate on the Address 246

[Mr David Hanson] probation service on all matters except serious crime. I am in favour of partnership with the private sector and giving them overcrowded, overpriced accommodation? voluntary sectors, but that is a real issue. What about barns and mobile homes being used as The right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd accommodation for migrant workers? I give notice to placed on record his concern about cuts to legal aid. the Minister that we will return to those questions when The hon. Member for Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley) that Bill and others are before the House in due course. focused strongly on rehabilitation and public health, The hon. Member for Enfield North made a thoughtful and his points were well made. speech on the blight of antisocial behaviour; I hope my In conclusion, a lot of measures that we wished to see remark does not ruin any prospects he has for future are missing, and may well appear in amendments or preferment. I am pleased the hon. Member for South new clauses in due course. The Government should Northamptonshire has arrived in the Chamber. She tackle economic and online crime, create a new specific indicated strongly that antisocial behaviour is a destroyer offence of identity theft, strengthen the Information of quality of life. She focused on early years intervention. Commissioner’s powers, and look at breaches of data I hope that, in due course, she will vote for the funds protection and cyber security. On economic crime, there that will help to support such intervention, which she is should be proper measures and stronger investigative currently voting to cut. powers for agencies. On shotguns, there should be improved The hon. Member for Ealing Central and Acton and more detailed licensing to stop the kind of incidents (Angie Bray) gave strong support to dangerous dogs that my right hon. Friend the Member for Normanton, measures. She will have the Opposition’s support in Pontefract and Castleford mentioned earlier. We need getting them through. However, we will want to look at to look at questions relating to the seizure of assets strengthening those measures during the passage of the from criminals and to build on the work of Labour in Bill. We want to ensure that we tackle the scourge of government. We should build on proposals for testing dangerous dogs in a positive way. private sector contracts with a detailed framework on the use of the private sector in policing. We want to Helen Jones: Will my right hon. Friend undertake to introduce proposals to strengthen police accountability consider during the passage of the Bill specific measures in our communities. to protect postal workers? Simple measures such as fitting cages behind letter boxes can protect postal Finally, my right hon. Friend the Member for workers from dogs. The dogs might not be inherently Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford and the shadow dangerous, but they are left running free in the home. Home Office team want to see greater action taken on violence against women and girls. A national duty Mr Hanson: That is a very good point and we will should be placed on all public services to respond to reflect on it with the Minister. I put leaflets through and record domestic and sexual violence. Measures doors on occasions. In my first by-election campaign—in should be in place to strengthen action to ensure that Grimsby in 1977, canvassing for my hon. Friend the violence against women and girls is ended. Member for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell)—I had There are measures proposed in the Bill and in the my finger bitten. I have some sympathy with the point Queen’s Speech that we will support and some that hit my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington North the wrong targets. Some are missing and should have makes. been included, and we will seek to ensure that the Tackling antisocial behaviour is crucial, and although Government include them. This is not a Government I have been able to have only a brief look at the Bill, I who are concerned about crime and justice; this is a believe it weakens the tools to do that. It will weaken Government who have watered down measures introduced antisocial behaviour orders with a power that will not by the previous Labour Government. The Government lead to a criminal record if breached. Although antisocial are cutting police numbers, ensuring that we cannot behaviour orders are not perfect, we want to see them protect our society as we would wish. We will not just improved, not weakened. We will scrutinise the proposals hold the legislation in the Queen’s Speech to account, closely during the passage of the Bill. The proposals but suggest alternatives. If the Government do not will weaken the protection of our communities and, in accept them, we will implement them in two years’ time. the words of the Metropolitan police, the Home Secretary has previous on this: she has watered down the use of 4.44 pm DNA, provided stricter controls on the use of CCTV, cut police numbers over and above the safeguards set by The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Damian Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary, put pressure Green): I would like to thank all those who have contributed on the use of restorative justice, and considered stopping to this debate. In the time remaining, I shall restrict my the European arrest warrant. Instead of standing up for response to matters relating to home affairs and justice. the victim, the Home Office is watering down measures. I know that other important issues were raised, but I Rehabilitation is important, because nearly everybody think I should operate within that limit. My other who goes to jail comes out at some point. We have to self-denying ordinance is to respond only to matters make them better people. The hon. and learned Member that are in the Queen’s Speech, rather than to the many for Harborough (Sir Edward Garnier) made a typically that others might have wanted to see in it. thoughtful speech on rehabilitation and how the prison The Government’s clear priority is backing people system can ensure that offenders do not reoffend. We who work hard and want to get on in life. The Home had many a joust when I was a Minister and he was a Office and the Ministry of Justice help with this by shadow Minister, and in his time in government, he keeping the country safe and secure, while protecting took this issue forward. Where I disagree with him is on Britain’s hard-won civil liberties. Various contributions what appears to be the wholesale privatisation of the from Opposition Members suggest that the latter 247 Debate on the Address9 MAY 2013 Debate on the Address 248 point is a genuine divide between the two parties of the We need to get better at reciprocal charging, and the coalition and the Labour party, which appears to want Department of Health has issued guidance on who to restrict civil liberties at every available opportunity. must produce a European health insurance card so that The programme for home affairs business for the new we can collect more money from foreign Governments. Session, as set out in the Gracious Speech, builds on the The right hon. Member for Delyn asked whether that many reforms and successes that we have delivered over would be an immigration or a health measure. It will be the past three years. We oversaw safe and secure Olympic an immigration measure, and so, as with previous and Paralympic games—I am sure that the House will immigration measures, we will discuss with Scotland, Wales join me in paying tribute to the police and security and Northern Ireland how it can best be implemented. services that helped to deliver them—and have Mr Hanson: I do not necessarily expect an answer revolutionised the accountability of the police through today, but what will happen if Wales, Scotland or the election of police and crime commissioners. Perhaps Northern Ireland refuses to implement the proposals? most important—I hope that the shadow police Minister, the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson), notes Damian Green: As they will be sensible proposals, I this fact—recorded crime is down by more than 10%, am sure that the Administrations in those areas will and the independent crime survey for England and want to implement them. Wales shows crime at its lowest level since records began. Despite the turmoil in many countries around Let me turn to the canard raised by the hon. Member the world, our streets and our society are safer than for Llanelli, who said there was a threat to the Gangmasters they have been for many years. Furthermore, we have (Licensing) Act 2004. It is not under threat; the Government cut net migration by nearly one third, while welcoming have reviewed the remit of the Gangmasters Licensing those who want to contribute to our economy and Authority, to focus attention and resources in the right support British businesses. Those are major successes, areas. She also said that we were not taking trafficking but further bold reforms are needed, and the ambitious seriously, which is a profoundly unfair accusation. We measures debated today will continue the Government’s are working overseas for the first time to tackle the relentless focus on protecting the public. problem at source. We have more thorough checks at our border and we are better at sharing intelligence I shall turn to the individual measures, starting with among the law enforcement agencies. The new National immigration. I congratulate the hon. Member for Slough Crime Agency will make us better at tackling what is a (Fiona Mactaggart), who is no longer in her place, on at serious and growing crime. least coming up with a concrete immigration policy—it The immigration Bill that will be introduced later this puts her ahead of her party’s Front-Bench team. That year will give the full force of legislation to the policy policy, however, was to bring back identity cards. I am that this House has already unanimously endorsed, in happy to assure her and the House that the Government the immigration rules, to ensure that article 8 of the will not be taking her advice on that matter. As I said, European convention on human rights—the right to however, net migration is already down by nearly one stay in the country because of family connections—is third under this Government. That itself is a significant not abused. It will ensure that our courts balance a success, but we of course need to do more, both in terms person’s right to remain in the country against the crime of the performance of the immigration system, as my they have committed. The Bill will also ensure that the hon. Friends the Members for Crawley (Henry Smith) appeal system cannot be abused by those who have no and for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) and the hon. Members right to be in this country and are simply looking to for Brent North (Barry Gardiner) and for Llanelli (Nia avoid removal for as long as possible. Those who do not Griffith) said, and in terms of legislation. meet our rules should leave the country. That is especially I shall deal with some of the detailed points made true of those foreigners who commit serious crimes. about immigration. I am happy to tell the shadow The Bill will ensure that such serious criminals will be Home Secretary what the Office for National Statistics deported from the UK in all but the most exceptional actually said about the cause of falling immigration. Its circumstances. February 2013 press release stated that The Government have always been clear that we must “the recent decline in net migration since the year ending September continue to attract the brightest and best to this country— 2011 has been driven by a fall in immigration”, those who will study, work hard or invest: those who contrary to what she asserted earlier. The hon. Member will contribute to our society—but we must deter those for Slough asked for a commitment that those who were who come here simply to take. That is why the Bill will guilty only of immigration offences should not be deported. deter those who seek only to take from our public I say to her that people should comply with the law, and services rather than contributing to them, prevent those if the criminal offence is an immigration offence—it with no right to be here from accessing our public could be trafficking or fraud—it is still a criminal services and stop the British taxpayer funding the benefits offence, and to suggest that people who commit immigration tourism that has gone unchecked for too long, as my offences should gain benefits from it seems completely hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire unacceptable. (Andrea Leadsom) eloquently pointed out. The legislation My hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge raised will build on our reforms of the past three years and the issue of the British nationality of children born ensure that the interests of the UK are protected. before 2006 to unmarried British fathers. When I was Several hon. Members, including the right hon. Member Immigration Minister, he and I had many discussions for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd) and the hon. about that, and I know that the current Immigration Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington Minister is also looking at the matter very carefully. My (Ms Abbott), said that this was in some way a toxic hon. Friend the Member for Crawley and others raised debate. Of course we do not want a toxic debate, but we the issue of health treatment for foreign nationals. need to have the debate and we need to take action. 249 Debate on the Address9 MAY 2013 Debate on the Address 250

[Damian Green] I should also mention the Rehabilitation of Offenders Bill. My hon. and learned Friend the If the mainstream political parties do not take effective Member for Harborough (Sir Edward Garnier) spoke action on immigration, as we have been doing for three with characteristically huge authority on the subject of years, we will leave the field clear to those who want to rehabilitation. I am sad that the shadow Justice Secretary make mischief from the issue, which would betray many has not been here today, either for this debate or for this people, not least immigrants to this country. morning’s statement on this important Bill. These measures Let me turn to the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and show that we are determined to crack down on the Policing Bill, which was introduced today. It will radically criminal behaviour that blights our communities by reform the way in which antisocial behaviour is tackled, adopting a fully thought-through approach to ensure putting the needs of victims and communities first. The that those who commit those crimes are rehabilitated Bill will ensure that the front-line professionals responsible when they are caught and punished. for tackling antisocial behaviour have more effective Reoffending levels have been too high for too long. and streamlined powers. The community remedy, which That not only ruins lives for the victims of crime but is my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North (Nick de a dreadful deal for the taxpayer. We spend more than Bois) mentioned, will, along with the community trigger, £3 billion a year on prisons and almost £1 billion a year give victims and communities a real say in how antisocial on delivering sentences in the community, but reoffending behaviour is dealt with. The community trigger will rates have barely changed. That is why the system needs empower the most vulnerable in society, giving them the to change. Many Labour Members oppose the proposals power to make agencies take persistent problems seriously. on the ground that they represent some kind of privatisation, He asked about the details. We have introduced a safeguard, but they need to get out of their ideological straitjackets which will mean that councils and the police cannot set and look at the wider picture. Everyone wants reoffending the threshold higher than three complaints, but can set rates to come down, and we all know that the vast it lower if they wish. I am also happy to confirm to him majority of crimes are committed by a very small that the legislation makes it clear that third parties, proportion of the population. Every one of those habitual including Members of this House, can activate the trigger repeat offenders whose life is turned around will represent on behalf of victims, which I hope he will welcome. a huge benefit not only to them and their immediate The professionals on the front line have told us time circle of friends and acquaintances but to society as a and again that securing an antisocial behaviour order whole. can be a slow, bureaucratic and expensive process, and The measures that my right hon. Friend the Justice that it often fails to change a perpetrator’s behaviour, Secretary is introducing will change the way we organise resulting in high breach rates and continued misery for the prison estate and put in place an unprecedented victims. That is why we are proposing new powers that “through the prison gate” resettlement service, meaning are quick and easy to use and will act as a real deterrent that someone will meet prisoners when they leave prison to perpetrators. The criminal behaviour order will be so that they do not simply fall back into their old ways. available to deal with the most antisocial individuals Most important, the measures will ensure that those and will carry a maximum sentence of five years on serving sentences of less than 12 months will receive breach. For lower-level offenders, a new civil injunction rehabilitation services for the first time. All those measures will be available to try to stop certain behaviour before will make a radical difference. Our using the expertise of it escalates. While breach would not result in a criminal the private sector and of the many really good charities record, it would still carry serious penalties. There are that work in this area will result in a rehabilitation those who say that agencies should act on the first revolution, which will be important in continuing the report, rather than on the second or third reports. Of gains that we have made in recent years in driving down course they should, but local agencies already have a crime levels. This will be seen as a significant piece of duty to deal with every report of antisocial behaviour, legislation in the years to come. and many of them do so quickly and effectively. This Along with the shadow policing Minister, the right legislation will give them more powers, and I hope that hon. Member for Delyn, I am looking forward to they will respond to that. having many detailed debates on the substance of the There have been a number of comments on other legislative programme. I am confident that the issues aspects of the antisocial behaviour part of the Bill, that I have not had time to address today, and many including the measures to tackle irresponsible dog others, will be discussed in much greater depth and ownership. I am grateful for the work done on this by possibly at much greater length. my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing Central and The Government’s legislative programme for home Acton (Angie Bray), who I know wants to scrutinise the affairs issues is bold, ambitious and, above all, necessary. legislation particularly carefully. We will be empowering We have already cut net migration by nearly a third and landlords to take rapid and effective action to tackle we are introducing measures to tackle abuse of the problem behaviour by their tenants. We will also be immigration system. We have cut crime by 10% and we attacking the source of gun crime, and I am grateful for are introducing further measures to tackle antisocial the support of those on the Opposition Benches for behaviour. We have established the National Crime these measures. We want to ensure that those who Agency and we will now introduce further measures to import or supply firearms face the full force of the law. tackle organised crime and cybercrime. I commend this The shadow Home Secretary and others mentioned the programme to the House. terrible incident of the Atherton shootings. We are considering the coroner’s recommendations and the Ordered, That the debate be now adjourned.—(Nicky results of the investigation by the Independent Police Morgan.) Complaints Commission. Debate to be resumed tomorrow. 251 9 MAY 2013 Hezbollah 252

Hezbollah implementation of these resolutions. Hezbollah leaders continue to maintain that they are not only re-arming, Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House but acquiring more sophisticated military technology. do now adjourn.—(Nicky Morgan.) Let me now focus on Syria and Lebanon. Historically, representations made in this place and beyond regarding 5pm Hezbollah have focused on the organisation’s impact on the state of Israel. I will talk about that in a moment, Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and but I first want to say a few words about the organisation’s Lesmahagow) (Lab): First, in the interests of transparency, appalling activities in Syria and Lebanon. I place on record the fact that I am one of the vice-chairs As a member of the Select Committee on International of Labour Friends of Israel. I am pleased that we are Development, I have witnessed first hand the awful having this important debate today; it presents a timely effects of war on innocent civilians, and few recent opportunity to discuss the nefarious role of Hezbollah conflicts have been as brutal and bloody as the current in the middle east and beyond. This organisation is Syrian civil war, set off by the violent suppression by aggravating the current situation in Syria, creating instability Bashar al-Assad of his own people. Iran and Iranian-backed in Lebanon and threatening not only Israel but nations Hezbollah are supporting President Assad’s crackdown, across the globe. The heartbreaking news coming to us and are supplying military and intelligence assistance to from Syria every day reminds us how complex and the regime and shipping weapons to Syria that have fragile is the situation all over the middle east. One large been deployed in violence against civilians. The elite cloud lurking over all these difficult situations is the Iranian Quds force has provided extensive logistical presence of Hezbollah, and it is that presence that led support and advice on how to suppress protests, following me to seek this debate. Iran’s successful crackdown on pro-democracy protests Before turning to the current political situation in in 2009. The Free Syrian army claims to have captured Syria, Lebanon and the wider region, I would like to say several Iranian and Hezbollah fighters, and many reports a little about the true nature of Hezbollah, its structure suggest that Hezbollah’s military assistance is invaluable and its objectives. Hezbollah is an organisation with a to Assad in certain regions of the country. strong paramilitary force, independent of the Lebanese It is to the eternal credit of the state of Israel that it state. It was established in the early 1980s, and its alone has sought to intervene in the crisis in Syria, and fighters were organised and trained by a contingent of its intervention was purely intended to prevent weapons the Iranian revolutionary guards. Iran and Syria are its transfers designed to allow Hezbollah to increase its main sponsors, providing financial, political and military military threat throughout the region. Syria is a febrile support to the organisation. The deputy leader of place and activities there are fast-moving, but one thing Hezbollah, Sheikh Naim Qassem, stated in April 2007 that is clear is the destabilising influence of Hezbollah that on the situation. “all our policies including firing missiles into Israeli territories could not have been done without the consent of the leader of the Lebanon, too, has suffered at the hands of Hezbollah. Islamic Republic of Iran. He has to agree to all Hezbollah’s Hezbollah triggered the collapse of the last Lebanese activities in advance.” Government in January 2011, after its Ministers resigned over then Prime Minister Saad Hariri’s refusal to withdraw Hezbollah is Iran’s proxy and is used by Tehran to exert support from the United Nations-backed Special Tribunal its sphere of influence over Lebanon and the wider for Lebanon. The tribunal is investigating the 2005 region. It has also been used by Iran to help prop up assassination of former Prime Minister Rafik Hariri, through military means the murderous regime of Bashar widely assumed to have been perpetrated by Hezbollah. al-Assad in Syria. The head of the tribunal urged four Hezbollah members The Hezbollah manifesto document produced in 1985, wanted in the case to appear before the court. The entitled “An Open Letter: The Hezbollah Programme”, tribunal’s president, Judge Antonio Cassese, made the declares that the organisation operates under one command appeal in an open letter two days after he was told by structure and shares the same goals. It states: Lebanese authorities that none of the four men identified “No one can imagine the importance of our military potential by the tribunal in June as suspects had been arrested. as our military apparatus is not separate from our overall social In March 2013, the Lebanese Cabinet, which was fabric. Each of us is a fighting soldier.” dominated by Hezbollah, resigned after failing to agree Hezbollah does not have separate streams for its military on a commission to oversee elections. The Hezbollah and non-military work. The jihad council, the political members also objected to extending the mandate of council, the executive council and the judicial council Lebanese internal security chief Ashraf Rifi. Their all report to the Shura council, and there is again no cynical destabilisation of the Lebanese political situation operational or ideological distinction between those is intended purely to benefit their own interests, while who pursue terror and those who do not. The deputy prolonging uncertainty and fear for millions of innocent leader, Sheikh Naim Qassem, said of Hezbollah’s structure: Lebanese citizens. “Hezbollah has a single leadership. All political, social and Also, of course, the Iranian-backed Hezbollah remains jihad work is tied to the decisions of this leadership. The same a clear and present danger to the people of Israel. While leadership that directs the parliamentary and government work Israel faces the prospect of a nuclear-armed Iran committed also leads jihad actions.” to the destruction of the Jewish state, the Iranian regime’s Today, Hezbollah continues to maintain its military clients lurk just over the border. Make no mistake about capacity in contravention of UN Security Council it: Hezbollah is committed to continued war against resolutions 1559 and 1701, and in defiance of a UN Israel. The leader of Hezbollah, Hassan Nasrallah, is military mission that was mandated to oversee the on the record as saying: 253 Hezbollah9 MAY 2013 Hezbollah 254

[Mr Michael McCann] Why is there resistance? Although the previous Government proscribed Hezbollah’s military wing, “I am against any reconciliation with Israel. I do not even Hezbollah’s significant role in Lebanese politics is often recognize the presence of a state that is called ‘Israel.’ I consider cited as the reason why the UK has not gone further its presence both unjust and unlawful. That is why if Lebanon and proscribed the whole organisation, which even its concludes a peace agreement with Israel and brings that accord to leader says operates under a single command structure. the Parliament our deputies will reject it; Hezbollah refuses any conciliation with Israel in principle.” The misplaced belief that Hezbollah’s politicians are legitimate and independent from its deadly terrorism is I have been to northern Israel and stared over our ally’s also behind the EU’s inaction. However, with Hezbollah northern border, acutely conscious of the 60,000 rockets politicians recently being responsible for causing the that are pointed at Israeli civilians. collapse of the Lebanese Government—a Government Even by middle east standards, Hezbollah is a particularly they have long dominated through military strength destabilising military actor. Israel’s actions last weekend rather than votes—now is the time to expose Hezbollah’s in Syria were intended purely to prevent Hezbollah supposed role in supporting Lebanese stability for the from transporting even longer-range missiles, supplied fallacy that it is. Hezbollah’s evil role in perpetuating by Iran, thus putting Tel Aviv and Jerusalem under ever the brutal military crackdown by Bashar al-Assad against greater direct threat. In this context, Israel’s reported his own people—again, as much a political as a military actions are entirely understandable and, I would suggest, operation—further demonstrates that any attempts to commendable. The House should unequivocally condemn draw some military/political distinction are naive at that Hezbollah threat and support the state of Israel. best. Now is the time for the EU also to take the threat Therefore, I would be grateful if the Minister updated from Iranian-sponsored Hezbollah seriously. Speaking the House on the Government’s view on proscribing the in Cyprus in September, the Foreign Secretary said that whole of Hezbollah, as recent developments in Lebanon he wants to see the EU and Syria appear to have undermined the Government’s argument that has sought to separate out Hezbollah’s “designate and sanction the military wing of Hezbollah”. military wing from its political operations. I urge the A month later, my right hon. Friend the shadow Foreign Government to extend the UK’s proscription of Hezbollah’s Secretary called for the EU to proscribe Hezbollah’s military wing to the whole organisation, and I would go military wing. I am proud of the Labour party’s further. With cracks beginning to show in French and commitment to the proscription of Hezbollah, and the German opposition to proscription, now is the time for Government should use this cross-party consensus to the Government to use the cross-party consensus and push for firm EU action. make the case for tough EU action. The reason for the new impetus was the acceptance I accept that a full ban on Hezbollah may be difficult that Hezbollah is not merely a Lebanese-based militant to achieve, but even an EU ban on the military wing of and political organisation, but a growing international Hezbollah would send a powerful message that we do terror network, working in tandem with Iran. Anyone not tolerate Hezbollah’s and Iran’s terrorism, and that in any doubt about the need for European action need we will work hard to curtail terrorist fundraising and only look at the number of international plots allegedly recruitment across Europe. initiated by Hezbollah in recent months, one of which It is beyond doubt that Hezbollah does Iran’s bidding tragically succeeded when a bomb killed five Israeli in upholding the bloody regime of President Bashar tourists and their Bulgarian driver outside Bulgaria’s al-Assad, and that it perpetuates the misery of millions Burgas airport in July last year. Two weeks prior to that of Syrian civilians. Hezbollah has sought to destabilise deadly attack, the Cypriot authorities arrested dual the politics and social fabric of Lebanon for many Swedish-Lebanese citizen Hossam Taleb Yaacoub, a years, most recently by undermining the Lebanese self-confessed Hezbollah member, for plotting to murder Government through a joint political and military effort. Israeli tourists in Cyprus. In court, the suspect said that It also remains a clear and present military danger to Hezbollah had spies around the world monitoring locations millions of Israeli men, women and children, with tens that Jews and Israelis frequented, in order to plan of thousands of missiles pointed at major population attacks. centres that could be launched with one word from This debate is about Hezbollah and other Iranian- Hezbollah’s venal, anti-Semitic paymasters in Tehran. supported terrorist organisations. According to Matthew It is clear that Hezbollah in its entirety should be Levitt of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, proscribed by both the UK Government and the European what we are seeing is the result of new, heightened Union. I urge the Minister to take decisive action to co-operation between Hezbollah and the Iranian Quds show that this country stands against terrorism in all its force, itself under EU sanctions for its operatives’ role forms. in supporting Bashar al-Assad’s violence against Syrian civilians. In addition to the bombing in Bulgaria and 5.16 pm the foiled attack in Cyprus, there have been recent foiled attacks linked to Iran and Hezbollah in Bangkok, Baku, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Tbilisi and Mombasa, as well as a bombing in New and Commonwealth Affairs (Alistair Burt): I thank Delhi, in India, which caused severe injury. Since the the hon. Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and bombing in Bulgaria and the emergence of clear evidence Lesmahagow (Mr McCann) for raising this important of Hezbollah’s role in Syria, there has been greater issue; for the clear and unequivocal support that he has pressure on the EU to list Hezbollah as a terrorist given to the forces of stability in the middle east; for the organisation, something that a number of European way that he has pointed out the risks and the dangers countries are resisting. that Hezbollah action poses in the area; for his support 255 Hezbollah9 MAY 2013 Hezbollah 256 for the state of Israel; and for his courtesy in sending me In response, therefore, to the murderous terrorist a copy of his speech, which has helped me to tailor my attack at Burgas airport, and in light of the disrupted response. I will make some comments for the record on plot in Cyprus, we are calling for Europe to deliver a the activities of Hezbollah, and on how the United robust response. We firmly believe that an appropriate Kingdom Government see Hezbollah and other Iranian- EU response would be to designate Hezbollah’s military supported terrorist organisations. wing as a terrorist organisation. That would be in line The hon. Gentleman set out at the beginning of his with our national proscription of Hezbollah’s military speech his view and his sense of the origins of Hezbollah. wing, to which the hon. Gentleman referred. The UK Let me add my own comments. The United Kingdom proscribed Hezbollah’s External Security Organisation Government concur that Hezbollah was born during in 2001. In 2008, the proscription was extended to the Lebanese civil war and in the aftermath of the include the whole of Hezbollah’s military apparatus, Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1982. From the outset, namely the Jihad Council and all the units reporting to resistance to Israel has been an important part of it—that is, the military wing. Hezbollah’s raison d’être. Hezbollah seeks to represent It is worth highlighting from the outset the distinction Lebanon’s Shi’a community and over time it has gained that I am making between Hezbollah’s political and significant electoral support. As a major political force military wings. I am referring to Hezbollah’s military and the largest non-state military force in the country, wing, and not to Hezbollah as an organisation, as a Hezbollah clearly plays an important role in Lebanon, terrorist group. It is a difficult distinction to make. The but its actions have often been highly destabilising. hon. Gentleman set out his case very well. At present Four members of Hezbollah have been indicted by the United Kingdom is still persuaded that the military the Special Tribunal for Lebanon for involvement in the and political wings of Hezbollah are organisationally killing of former Prime Minister Hariri in 2004, as the distinct. It is important to recognise that Hezbollah’s hon. Gentleman mentioned. Hezbollah’s provocative political wing is and will remain an important part of actions led to the 2006 conflict with Israel, which caused Lebanon’s political scene. The EU shares that consensus. extensive damage and casualties within Lebanon. It has However, I believe very firmly that EU designation of refused to disarm, despite the requirements of UN the Hezbollah military wing would send out a clear Security Council resolution 1701. Indeed, it has continued message, as the hon. Gentleman stated, that we condemn to strengthen its arsenal, with Iranian and Syrian assistance. the terrorist activities of the military wing of Hezbollah The hon. Gentleman was good enough to recognise and that terrorist activities on European soil will not go the dilemma facing not only this Government but other unpunished. We believe the evidence gathered from the Governments in the EU that at other times Hezbollah investigation into the Burgas attack and from the Cypriot has played a pragmatic political role in Lebanon—there trial into the foiled attack by a Hezbollah operative to might be all sorts of reasons for that—including as a be sufficient to warrant designation action under the member of the current caretaker Government. Also, in EU common position 931—the EU’s designation process. recent years it has helped to ensure that the southern We will continue to work closely with our European border with Israel has remained relatively quiet. partners on this issue. As the hon. Gentleman also noted, Hezbollah has a Let me say a little more. From the tone of the hon. relationship with Iran that stretches back to the Gentleman’s remarks and the sense behind it, he wants establishment of the movement. Iran has provided to be very clear about what we are doing and how Hezbollah with money, arms and advice from the outset, determined we are to carry it through. We will take the and it continues to do so. Iran’s supreme leader is also a lead in the EU in initiating CP 931 action in response to source of religious authority for Hezbollah. In Syria what we believe has been an attack on EU soil. A and elsewhere, Hezbollah continues to work closely number of other EU member states and the US, Canada with Iran and in ways that the UK would argue certainly and Israel have also called for the EU to take action. We do not represent Lebanese interests. are sharing information with our EU partners before However, it is difficult to say that Hezbollah is simply calling for a meeting of the common position 931 working an Iranian proxy. Hezbollah’s leaders do not act solely group to discuss our proposal for a designation. We at Iran’s behest and they tend to factor in domestic expect this meeting to take place in the coming weeks— considerations, including the impact on Lebanon and within the next four weeks. The UK has compiled a core on the Shi’a community, when making decisions—and script to address any concerns raised by member states sometimes when not making decisions. ahead of the working group and to explain the implications of proceeding with designation. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has asserted yet again that the EU proscription of Hezbollah, which One of the issues which is obvious and which might the hon. Gentleman made a significant part of his be raised is the fear of some that proscription might remarks, has become a topical issue in recent months contribute to instability in Lebanon. I am sure that the with the announcement by the previous Bulgarian hon. Gentleman shares my view that EU designation of Government on 5 February, implicating Hezbollah’s Hezbollah’s military wing would not run contrary to military wing in the atrocious bomb attack on a bus in our shared support for Lebanon’s stability. We see no Burgas last July, which killed five Israeli tourists and the reason why designation would in itself affect the EU’s Bulgarian bus driver. The assessment of the involvement positive relationship with the present Lebanese Government of Hezbollah’s military wing is shared by the United or the EU’s assistance to the Lebanese Government. So Kingdom. The guilty verdict in the trial of a Hezbollah we do not assess that our designation of Hezbollah’s operative in Cyprus, concluded on 21 March, is still military wing and the EU’s designation of Hezbollah’s further evidence of Hezbollah’s role in terrorist attacks military wing would affect the legitimate political role or planned attacks on EU soil over the past 12 months. currently played by Hezbollah in Lebanon. In fact, we 257 Hezbollah9 MAY 2013 Hezbollah 258

[Alistair Burt] financial resources, military equipment and training of groups not only to Hezbollah but to other groups such believe that there is a greater risk in Europe in doing as Palestinian Islamic Jihad and, to a lesser extent, nothing or not enough in response to Burgas and Hamas. Such support undermines Iran’s claim to support Cyprus. stability in the middle east. Moving on to other elements that the hon. Gentleman We are also increasingly concerned by Iran’s involvement raised, we are also deeply concerned by credible information in terrorism outside its borders through the Islamic that Iran and Hezbollah are providing military support Revolutionary Guards Corps Quds force, including in to the Syrian Government. Iran’s assistance extends to Thailand, India, Georgia, Azerbaijan and Kenya, where providing technical advice, training, equipment and weapons two Iranian men were recently sentenced to life in to aid Assad’s brutal repression of the Syrian people. prison by a Kenyan court for planning to carry out Such support is unacceptable and in direct contravention bombings in Nairobi and other cities last year. We are of the UN embargo on the export of weapons by Iran committed to the toughest possible international response in UN Security Council resolution 1747. to Iran’s support for terrorism and its refusal to operate To counter Iranian support to the Syrian regime, we within the bounds of international law. designated the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps I confirm for clarity that we recognise the grave Quds force, part of the Iranian military supplying support concerns regarding Hezbollah and Iranian-supported to the Syrian regime, under EU Syria sanctions in terrorist groups and we are taking what action we can August 2011. The UK has also designated five individuals accordingly. We believe in particular, very much on the under the Terrorist Asset-Freezing etc. Act 2010 in lines set out by the hon. Gentleman, that Europe can relation to the terrorist activities of Iran and the Quds and must act, and I hope that I have been able to force. persuade him that I and my ministerial colleagues will Hezbollah, too, is providing significant support to continue to engage with our European counterparts in Assad, through both direct military intervention and pursuance of that objective. What the middle east needs through assistance and advice to the Syrian forces. We most desperately now is peace and stability. It is difficult condemn this involvement. As well as aiding Assad’s to see the part being played by Hezbollah’s military brutal repression of the Syrian people, such involvement wing or by Iran in relation to that. The time for ending violates and undermines Lebanon’s policy of dissociation the cycle of violence perpetuated by Assad and his and so threatens the country’s security. During my visit regime is now, and the time to bring peace and stability to Beirut last week, I urged all Lebanese parties to put to the middle east is now. We will support all attempts Lebanon’s interest first and to stop sending their sons that aim to do that, but we will be ruthless in our over the border to Syria to die, because the only certainty condemnation of those who seek to upset it. that will result is that Syria’s war will come over the border to Lebanon. The policy of dissociation has Question put and agreed to. worked so far, despite the fragility in Lebanon, and it is essential that that continues. Turning to other Iranian-sponsored terrorist groups, 5.27 pm we are seriously concerned by Iran’s support for terrorist groups that undermine regional stability. Iran provides House adjourned. 1WS Written Ministerial Statements9 MAY 2013 Written Ministerial Statements 2WS

Written Ministerial Al-Qaeda EU Reg (EC) Regime TAFA 2010 2580/2001 UNSCR 1989

Statements (iv) Individuals 404 in UK, not in custody Thursday 9 May 2013 (v) Individuals 13 11 227 overseas (vi) Groups 8 (0 in UK) 25 (1 in UK) 64 (1 in UK) Individuals by Nationality TREASURY (i) UK 15 n/a n/a Nationals3 (ii) Non UK 16 Nationals Counter-Terrorist Asset Freezing Regime Renewal of 31 n/a n/a designation General The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Greg Clark): Licences My noble friend the Commercial Secretary to the Treasury, (i) Issued in Q4 (i) 0 Lord Deighton, has today made the following written (ii) Amended (ii) 0 ministerial statement: (iii) Revoked (iii) 0 Under the Terrorist Asset-Freezing etc. Act 2010 (“TAFA Specific 2010”), the Treasury is required to report to Parliament, quarterly, Licences on its operation of the UK’s asset-freezing regime mandated by UN Security Council Resolution 1373. (i) Issued in Q4 (i) 1 (i) 0 (i) 1 (ii) Amended (ii) 1 (ii) 0 (ii) 0 This is the ninth report under the Act and it covers the period from 1 January 2013 to 31 March 2013. This report also covers (iii) Revoked (iii) 0 (iii) 0 (iii) 0 the UK implementation of the UN al-Qaeda asset-freezing regime 1This figure reflects the most up-to-date account balances available and the operation of the EU asset-freezing regime in the UK and includes approximately $64,000 of suspected terrorist funds under EU regulation (EC) 2580/2001 which implements UNSCR frozen in the UK. This has been converted using exchange rates as of 1373 against external terrorist threats to the EU. Under the UN 10/04/2013. al-Qaeda asset-freezing regime, the UN has responsibility for 2Includes EU only and joint UK and EU listings. One Individual designations and the Treasury has responsibility for licensing and was delisted in Q4 of 2012 but this was not included in the Quarterly compliance with the regime in the UK under the Al-Qaeda Report for that period in error. (Asset-freezing) Regulations 2011. Under EU regulation 2580/2001, 3Based on information held by the treasury, some of these the EU has responsibility for designations and the Treasury has individuals hold dual nationality. responsibility for licensing and compliance with the regime in the A final designation made by the Treasury under TAFA 2010 UK under part 1 of TAFA 2010. expires at the end of one year, unless revoked or renewed before Annexes A and B to this statement provide a breakdown, by that date. As such, the designations of 26 individuals and six name, of all those designated by the UK and the EU in pursuance groups were reviewed during the period. Following these reviews, of UN Security Council Resolution 1373. 31 designations were renewed and one designation was revoked. During this period the Treasury response to the independent reviewer’s second report was laid in Parliament. Legal Proceedings The following table sets out the key asset-freezing activity in Appeals against designations made under the Terrorism (United the UK during the quarter ending 31 March 2013: Nations Measures) Order 2009 and TAFA 2010 were ongoing in the quarter covered by this report, brought by Zana Abdul Rahim Al-Qaeda and Gulam Mastafa. Gulam Mastafa also issued proceedings in EU Reg (EC) Regime this period under section 27 of the TAFA 2010 challenging a TAFA 2010 2580/2001 UNSCR 1989 licensing decision taken by the Treasury. This has been listed to be heard with Mastafa’s substantive appeal against his designation Assets frozen £23,000 £11,000 £72,0001 in July 2013. A claim for damages against the Treasury arising (as at 31/03/ from the designation of another individual, known as “M” for the 2013) purpose of these proceedings is also ongoing. Number of 61 10 27 In the quarter to 31 March 2013, no criminal proceedings were accounts initiated in respect of breaches of asset freezes made under TAFA frozen in 2010 or under the Al-Qaeda (Asset-Freezing) Regulations 2011. UK(at 31/03/ 13) Accounts 002 unfrozen Annex A: Designated persons under TAFA 2010 by name4 2 Number of 39 36 296 INDIVIDUALS designations (at 31/03/2013) 1. Hamed Abdollahi (i) New 0002. BilalTalal Abdullah designations 3. Imad Khalil Al-Alami (during Q1 2013) 4. Abdula Ahmed Ali (ii) Delistings 1 0 4 5. Abdelkarim Hussein Al-Nasser (iii) Individuals 14 0 1 6. Ibrahim Salih Al-Yacoub in custody in UK 7. Manssor Arbabsiar 3WS Written Ministerial Statements9 MAY 2013 Written Ministerial Statements 4WS

8. Usama Hamdan 8. Islami Büyük Dogu Akincilar Cephesi (IBDA-C) (Great 9. Nabeel Hussain Islamic Eastern Warriors Front) 10. Tanvir Hussain 9. Hamas, including Hamas-Izz al-Din al-Qassem 11. Zahoor Iqbal 10. HizbulMujahideen (HM) 12. Umar Islam 11. Hofstadgroep 12. Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development* 13. Hasan Izz-Al-Din 13. International Sikh Youth Federation (ISYF) 14. Parviz Khan 14. Khalistan Zindabad Force (KZF) 15. Waheed Arafat Khan 15. Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) (a.k.a. KONGRA-GEL) 16. Osman Adam Khatib 16. Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE) 17. Musa Abu Marzouk 17. Ejercito de Liberacion Nacional (National Liberation 18. Gulam Mastafa Army)* 19. Khalid Mishaal 18. Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) 20. Khalid Shaikh Mohammed 19. Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP)* 21. Ramzi Mohammed 20. Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine—General * 22. Sultan Muhammad Command (PFLP-GC) 21. Fuerzas armadas revolucionarias de Colombia (FARC)* 23. Yassin Omar 22. Devrimci Halk Kurtulu Partisi-Cephesi—DHKP/C 24. Hussein Osman (Revolutionary People’s Liberation Army/Front/Party) 25. Muktar Mohammed Said 23. Sendero Luminoso (SL) (Shining Path)* 26. Assad Sarwar 24. Stichting Al Aqsa 27. Ibrahim Savant 25. Teyrbazen Azadiya Kurdistan (TAK) 28. Abdul Reza Shahlai 4For full listing details please refer to http://www.hm-treasury. 29. Ali Gholam Shakuri gov.uk/d/terrorism.htm. 30. Qasem Soleimani 5For full listing details please refer to http://www.hm-treasury. 31. Waheed Zaman gov.uk/d/terrorism.htm. ENTITIES *EU listing rests on UK designation under TAFA 2010. 1. Basque Fatherland and Liberty (ETA) 2. Ejercito de Liberacion Nacional (ELN) 3. Fuerzas Armadas Revolucionarias de Colombia (FARC) COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT 4. Hizballah Military Wing, including External Security Organisation 5. Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development Planning: Reuse of Buildings 6. Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine - General Command (PFLP-GC) The Secretary of State for Communities and Local 7. Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) Government (Mr Eric Pickles): The coalition Government 8. Sendero Luminoso (SL) believe that a swift and responsive planning system is Annex B: Persons designated by the EU under Council vital for delivering sustainable development. We want Regulation (EC)2580/20015 to promote the use of brownfield land to assist regeneration, and get empty and underused buildings back into productive PERSONS use. Using such previously developed land and buildings 1. Named ABDOLLAHI* will help us promote economic growth and still ensure 2. Abdelkarim Hussein AL-NASSER* that we safeguard environmentally protected land. 3. Ibrahim Salih ALYACOUB* Further to my written statement of 24 January 2013, 4. Manssor ARBABSIAR* Official Report, column 16WS, on reforms to change of 5. Mohammed BOUYERI use to promote regeneration, we are today laying secondary 6. Sofiane Yacine FAHAS legislation to amend the Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development Order) 1995. 7. Hasan IZZ-AL-DIN* * These changes will bring empty and underused buildings 8. Khalid Shaikh MOHAMMED back into productive use; make it easier to bring forward 9. Abdul Reza SHAHLAI* suitable buildings for state-funded schools; allow business 10. AliGholam SHAKURI* and families to extend and improve their premises and 11. Qasem SOLEIMANI* homes without the expense of moving; and facilitate delivery of superfast broadband. These measures also GROUPS AND ENTITIES implement recommendations from Mary Portas’ review 1. Abu Nidal Organisation (ANO) to reduce restrictive “change of use” red tape. 2. Al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigade New homes: commercial to residential change of use 3. Al-Aqsa e.V. New permitted development rights will allow change 4. Al-Takfir and Al-Hijra of use from offices B1(a) to homes (C3) to provide new 5. BabbarKhalsa homes in existing buildings. This gives a clear signal to 6. Communist Party of the Philippines, including New People’s owners, developers and local planning authorities that Army (NPA), Philippines we want underused and outdated offices to be brought 7. Gama’a al-lslamiyya (a.k.a. Al-Gama’a al-Islamiyya) (Islamic back to life, and provides an excellent opportunity to Group—IG) create much needed new homes. 5WS Written Ministerial Statements9 MAY 2013 Written Ministerial Statements 6WS

We recognised that there may be exceptional economic As set out in this year’s Budget statement, we will circumstances which would justify exemptions. Following consult later in the summer on further relaxations to a thorough assessment of cases submitted, this change enable empty shops and agricultural buildings to convert will not apply to areas in 17 local authorities, as set out to housing. in the secondary legislation. Supporting high streets and local firms EDUCATION Our changes will also support business start-up and expansion, the rural economy and the future of our high streets. Existing redundant agricultural buildings Traineeships of 500m2 or less will be able to change to a range of new business uses, to boost the rural economy while protecting the open countryside from development. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Skills People looking for premises to test new business ideas (Matthew Hancock): As part of plans to reform the and other pop up ventures will find it easier to identify education system we need better support for young sites and open quickly: new retail ventures, financial people aged over 16 who are focused on securing an and professional services, restaurants, cafes and businesses apprenticeship or sustainable jobs. We want to make it will be able to open for up to two years in buildings the new norm that young people go into either an designated as Al, A2, A3, A4, A5, B1, Dl or D2 classes apprenticeship or university. (shops, financial services, restaurants, pubs, hot food Employers frequently tell us that they are not satisfied takeaways, business, non-residential institutions, leisure with the quality of young applicants that they receive and assembly). for their vacancies. They would like young people to have better English and maths, experience in the workplace Thresholds for permitted development rights for change and the skills and character needed to secure and hold of use from B1 (business) or B2 (general industry) to B8 down a job. (storage and distribution) classes and from B2 (general So today I am publishing a framework for delivery industry) or B8 (storage and distribution) to B1 (business) 2 2 for a new programme of traineeships. Traineeships will will increase from 235m to 500m . address the needs of young people and employers directly, Allowing parents and community activists to open new providing an important link between school or college free schools and apprenticeships or sustainable work. In a move to assist the Government’s free schools The programme will begin from August this year for agenda, there are a series of measures to make it easier 16-19 year olds, and we will look to extend the programme for parents and community activists to convert existing up to 24 in due course. Traineeships will be designed to buildings to become new state funded schools. Premises help young people develop in three core areas and have used as offices, hotels, residential and non-residential flexibility around this core to respond to individuals’ institutions, and leisure and assembly will be able to needs. change use permanently to a state-funded school. For First, they will include high-quality work placements. one academic year building in any use class will be able This will allow trainees to work with an employer, to be used as a state-funded school. developing the behaviours necessary to find and keep a job. Helping families improve their homes Secondly, traineeships will offer flexible training in Where we believe a local planning authority will have other relevant areas to build character and help young an interest in ensuring the impact of any change of use people get ready for work, such as job search and is properly managed we have put in place a prior interview skills, time-keeping and team working. approval stage, allowing local residents and councillors Thirdly, and crucially, the programme will develop to continue to play an active part in the planning the English and maths that employers consistently tell process. us are essential prerequisites for successful employment. We have listened carefully to views expressed through Providers and employers will have the freedom to our consultation and in debates in both Houses during work together to develop these core elements and any passage of the Growth and Infrastructure Act on our additional flexible content in the best way to engage proposals to increase the size thresholds for extensions. and support individual trainees and meet the needs of The regulations laid today will allow larger extensions local employers. Traineeships will be part of our new to homes, offices and shops to proceed without needing study programmes, which will ensure simplicity and to submit a planning application. Larger home extensions enable young people to move between options. will be subject to a light-touch neighbours’ consultation Each traineeship will last up to six months, after scheme. The change is initially for a three-year period, which the trainee will be much better placed to progress and we will keep the policy under review to establish the into an apprenticeship, a sustainable job, or into continued scope for extending the scheme. education to develop the skills they need for their chosen career. Traineeships will conclude with a guaranteed Bridging the digital divide interview with the work placement host, either for a job We are also introducing secondary legislation following or a reference from their work placement to develop the passage of the Growth and Infrastructure Act, to their CV. facilitate the roll out of high-speed fixed broadband in In the first year, we will restrict the providers who rural areas. The Department for Culture, Media and offer traineeships to those that Ofsted has judged to be Sport will lay complementary regulations shortly which outstanding or good. This will help to ensure a high-quality are necessary for this measure to be fully implemented. start that we can expand upon in future years. 7WS Written Ministerial Statements9 MAY 2013 Written Ministerial Statements 8WS

Employers will have a key role in making the traineeships acts. There would be a third trilogue, with any outstanding programme a success, both leading delivery and working issues to be settled in COREPER. The presidency was in partnership with education and training providers. optimistic that outstanding issues can be resolved ahead I believe that the traineeships programme that I am of May Council. announcing today will set more young people on the Action plan for reducing incidental catches of seabirds in path to apprenticeships, sustainable jobs and successful fishing gears presentation by the Commission. careers. The Commission presented its plan of action, designed Copies of the document we are publishing today will to improve the situation for a number of species threatened be placed in the Libraries of both Houses. with extinction by reducing incidental catches to the lowest possible level. They were proposing a bottom-up, ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS regionalised approach with responsibility given to member states and stakeholders. The Netherlands and the UK Agriculture and Fisheries Council welcomed the plan. The UK highlighted serious concerns about by-catches of seabirds and argued that the plan gave the EU the opportunity to be recognised as a world The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural leader in responding to this problem. Other member Affairs (Mr Owen Paterson): I attended the Agriculture states gave a more guarded response. and Fisheries Council on 22 April in Luxembourg. I AOB: state of play of fisheries protocols: Morocco and was accompanied by the Under-Secretary of State for Mauritania Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my hon. Friend Spain introduced the AOB point they had raised, the Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon), who is pressed for information on the prospects of a new responsible for natural environment, water and rural fishing protocol with Morocco and for further affairs, who represented the UK on fisheries issues. improvements to the protocol with Mauritania. The Alun Davies AM and Richard Lochhead MSP also Commission said they had worked intensively to progress attended. the protocol with Morocco, including at ministerial The substantive business of the Agriculture Council level. On Mauritania the Commission would continue began with the presidency reporting back on the first to seek sustainable and viable improvements to the six trilogue meetings with the European Parliament. protocol. They confirmed that if the protocol remained Some technical issues had been resolved, and some underused then they would make use of the break major political aspects identified. A further 28 meetings clause in order to protect the interest of taxpayers. were scheduled before the end of June to negotiate on the major political issues plus parallel technical meetings too. The aim is to reach agreement on the full package at the June Agriculture Council. The major political Veterinary Products Committee and its Sub-Committee issues would be resolved then, but the presidency called 2012 (Annual Report) for flexibility from member states as it will be necessary to update the negotiating mandate over the coming weeks. The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr David Heath): Ihavereceived The Commission introduced a proposal for transitional the annual report of the Veterinary Products Committee measures for the CAP in 2014. These roll over the and its sub-committee 2012, which has been published majority of existing CAP rules for direct payments and today. rural development, but use the budgetary figures for the multiannual financial framework agreed by the European Copies of the report have been placed in the Libraries Council in February. The presidency explained that the of both Houses. Parliament planned to give its opinion on the transitional I am pleased to acknowledge the valuable work done measures in July and that trilogues to agree the dossier by the distinguished members of the Veterinary Products would be held in the autumn. Committee and its sub-committee and thank them for Fisheries the time and effort dedicated in the public interest to The presidency reported on the trilogues with the this important work. European Parliament on the basic regulation of the common fisheries policy reform. Discussions had been constructive, but there was still no agreement on a number of key political issues, including the approach HOME DEPARTMENT to be taken to the definition of maximum sustainable yield (MSY), the detail of the discard ban, regionalisation and fleet capacity. The presidency received support for Riot (Damages) Act 1886 its planned approach from member states and concluded that they now had support to intensify the work of the trilogues. The aim would be to agree a revised Council The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Damian mandate for the negotiations in COREPER, with further Green): The Home Secretary has commissioned an discussion at the May Fisheries Council. independent review of the Riot (Damages) Act 1886. Common organisation of the markets in the fishery and This will be led by Neil Kinghan and is expected to aquaculture products—state of play conclude by the end of September 2013. The presidency reported on progress in the first two The review will examine the existing criteria which trilogues. Outstanding issues were in relation to mandatory determine when compensation is payable under the consumer information and delegated and implementing Riot (Damages) Act. This includes looking at key issues 9WS Written Ministerial Statements9 MAY 2013 Written Ministerial Statements 10WS involving the definition of a riot, who should be liable NORTHERN IRELAND and what level of entitlement should be afforded under the Act. Government’s Legislative Programme (Northern Ireland)

LEADER OF THE HOUSE The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mrs Theresa Villiers): The legislative programme unveiled in the Queen’s Speech on 8 May 2013 contains measures which will apply to Northern Ireland. Government’s Legislative Programme 2013-14 The following is a summary of the legislation announced in the Queen’s Speech and its impact in Northern Ireland. It does not include draft Bills. The list also identifies the lead Government Department. The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Andrew Lansley): Following yesterday’s state opening of Parliament, The following Bills extend to Northern Ireland, in and for the convenience of the House, I am listing whole or in part, and deal wholly or mainly with excepted below the 17 Bills which were announced yesterday: or reserved matters: Anti-Social Behaviour, Crime and Policing (Home Office) Anti-Social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill Defence Reform (Ministry of Defence) Care Bill Immigration (Home Office) Defence Reform Bill Intellectual Property (Business Innovations and Skills) Deregulation Bill National Insurance Contributions (HM Treasury) High Speed Two Bill (Hybrid Bill) Northern Ireland Bill (Northern Ireland Office) The following Bills may extend to Northern Ireland. High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill They require the consent of the Northern Ireland Assembly Immigration Bill in relation to provisions in the devolved field: Intellectual Property Bill Care and Support (Department of Health) Local Audit and Accountability Bill Deregulation (Cabinet Office) Mesothelioma (Department for Work and Pensions) Mesothelioma Bill Pensions (Department for Work and Pensions) National Insurance Contributions Bill Rehabilitation (Ministry of Justice) Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill The following Bills will have limited or no application Pensions Bill in Northern Ireland: Offender Rehabilitation Bill High Speed Two Hybrid (Department for Transport) High Speed Paving Two (Department for Transport) Gambling (Licensing and Advertising) Bill Local Audit and Accountability (Department of Communities Water Bill and Local Government) Primary legislation will also be taken forward in Water Bill (Department of Environment, Food and Rural accordance with the European Union Act 2011 to seek Affairs) Parliament’s approval for measures proposed by the Discussions will continue between the Government European Union. and the Northern Ireland Executive to ensure that where provisions that cover transferred matters are Nine of these Bills, or parts of them, will have had included in any Bill, the consent of the Northern Ireland pre-legislative scrutiny prior to introduction. Assembly is sought. The following Bills will be published in draft: Consumer Rights Bill Deregulation Bill SCOTLAND National Insurance Contributions Bill A draft Bill concerning National Assembly For Wales Government’s Legislative Programme (Scotland) A draft Bill concerning changes to the Riot Damages Act 1886 Further measures are expected to be published in The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore): draft later in the Session. Thirteen of the 15 new Bills mentioned in the Queen’s Speech for this Session of Parliament contain provisions The Government also intend to bring forward a Law that apply in Scotland, either in full or in part. Once Commission Bill on inheritance and trustees’ powers again this is a strong programme of legislation for and also a consolidation Bill on co-operatives. Scotland. Detailed information about each of these Bills can be The programme focuses on strengthening economic accessed from the No. 10 website at: https://www.gov.uk/ competitiveness in Scotland and the whole of the United government/organisations/prime-ministers-office-10- Kingdom as we continue to prioritise measures that will downing-street. reduce the deficit. 11WS Written Ministerial Statements9 MAY 2013 Written Ministerial Statements 12WS

The National Insurance Contributions Bill will reduce Pensions Bill the cost for businesses and charities that take on new Water Bill staff by reducing national insurance contributions for Section 2—Legislation that will not apply in Scotland. employers. Other measures to help businesses include Local Audit and Accountability Bill the Deregulation Bill cutting red tape and an Intellectual Property Bill which will help encourage enterprise and Offender Rehabilitation Bill drive economic growth. With the high speed 2 legislation the Government are also taking steps to safeguard the future competitiveness WALES of the United Kingdom, by investing in this crucial infrastructure which will see journey times from Scotland Government’s Legislative Programme (Wales) to London cut significantly. The speech also outlines the important reforms to the pensions system, introducing a new single-tier state The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones): pension that will make the pensions system simpler and The Government’s Third Session legislative programme fairer, as well as benefiting those who have done poorly announced in the Queen’s Speech on 8 May contains a from the current system, for example carers and those wide range of measures that will apply to Wales, either with interrupted work histories. The Government will in full or in part. also help to support working parents, via a new scheme The following Bills and draft Bills will extend to to help households where both parents work with the Wales: cost of child care. Anti-Social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill (Home Office) This statement provides a summary of the legislation Draft Consumer Rights Bill (Business Innovations and Skills) announced in the Queen’s Speech and its application to Defence Reform Bill (Ministry of Defence) Scotland. It does not include draft Bills. Deregulation Bill (Cabinet Office) The Government are committed to the principles of High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill (Department for Transport) the Sewel convention, and we will continue to work constructively with the Scottish Government to secure Immigration Bill (Home Office) consent for Bills that contain provisions requiring the Intellectual Property Bill (Business Innovations and Skills) consent of the Scottish Parliament. Mesothelioma Bill (Department for Work and Pensions) The Bills listed in section 1 will apply to Scotland, National Insurance Contributions Bill (HM Treasury) either in full or in part. Section 2 details Bills that will Pensions Bill (Department for Work and Pensions) not apply in Scotland. Rehabilitation Bill (Ministry of Justice) Section 1—Legislation applying to the United Kingdom, Draft Wales Bill (Wales Office) including Scotland (either in full or in part). The following Bills may extend to Wales in varying Anti-Social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill degrees: Care Bill Care and Support Bill (Department of Health) Defence Reform Bill High Speed Two Hybrid Bill (Department for Transport) Deregulation Bill Local Audit and Accountability Bill (Department of High Speed Two Hybrid Bill Communities and Local Government) HS2 Paving Bill Northern Ireland Bill (Northern Ireland Office) Immigration Bill Water Bill (Department of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs) Intellectual Property Bill Discussions will continue with the Welsh Government Mesothelioma Bill on Bills that might include provisions that require the National Insurance Contributions Bill consent of the National Assembly for Wales or Welsh Northern Ireland Bill Ministers. 1MC Ministerial Corrections9 MAY 2013 Ministerial Corrections 2MC

John Thurso: The cost of the catering service is Ministerial Correction expected to have been reduced by £1.1 million over the past three years. It stood at £5.9 million in 2010-11 and Thursday 9 May 2013 £5.1 million in 2011-12. The forecast cost for the current financial year is £4.8 million. The current aim is to reduce the cost further so that by 2015 it should be reduced by £3 million, roughly half of what it was at the start of the Parliament. HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION [Official Report, 28 February 2013, Vol. 559, c. 472.] Food and Drink Subsidy An error has been identified in the oral answer given to the hon. Member for Pendle (Andrew Stephenson). The following is the answer given by the hon. Member The correct answer should have been: for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso), representing the House of Commons Commission, to a John Thurso: The cost of the catering service is question from the hon. Member for Pendle (Andrew expected to have been reduced by £1.1 million over the Stephenson) during House of Commons Commission past three years. It stood at £5.8 million in 2010-11 and Question Time on 28 February 2013. £5.2 million in 2011-12. The forecast cost for the current financial year is £4.8 million. The current aim is to 7. Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): What progress reduce the cost further so that by 2015 it should be the Commission has made on reducing the subsidy on reduced by £3 million, roughly half of what it was at the food and drink served in the House. [145145] start of the Parliament.

WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Thursday 9 May 2013

Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 4WS LEADER OF THE HOUSE ...... 9WS Planning: Reuse of Buildings ...... 4WS Government’s Legislative Programme 2013-14 ...... 9WS

EDUCATION...... 6WS NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 10WS Traineeships ...... 6WS Government’s Legislative Programme (Northern Ireland) ...... 10WS

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL SCOTLAND...... 10WS AFFAIRS...... 7WS Government’s Legislative Programme (Scotland) .. 10WS Agriculture and Fisheries Council...... 7WS Veterinary Products Committee and its Sub- TREASURY ...... 1WS Committee 2012 (Annual Report)...... 8WS Counter-Terrorist Asset Freezing Regime...... 1WS

HOME DEPARTMENT...... 8WS WALES...... 12WS Riot (Damages) Act 1886...... 8WS Government’s Legislative Programme (Wales) ...... 12WS MINISTERIAL CORRECTION

Thursday 9 May 2013

Col. No. HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION ...... 1MC Food and Drink Subsidy...... 1MC Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Thursday 16 May 2013

STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT GREATLY FACILITATES THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF THE VOLUMES

Members may obtain excerpts of their Speeches from the Official Report (within one month from the date of publication), on application to the Stationery Office, c/o the Editor of the Official Report, House of Commons, from whom the terms and conditions of reprinting may be ascertained. Application forms are available at the Vote Office.

PRICES AND SUBSCRIPTION RATES DAILY PARTS Single copies: Commons, £5; Lords, £4. Annual subscriptions: Commons, £865; Lords, £600. LORDS VOLUME INDEX obtainable on standing order only. Details available on request. BOUND VOLUMES OF DEBATES are issued periodically during the session. Single copies: Commons, £105; Lords, £60 (£100 for a two-volume edition). Standing orders will be accepted. THE INDEX to each Bound Volumeof House of Commons Debates is published separately at £9·00 and can be supplied to standing order. All prices are inclusive of postage Volume 563 Thursday No. 2 9 May 2013

CONTENTS

Thursday 9 May 2013

Business of the House [Col. 127] Statement—(Mr Lansley)

Child-care Ratios [Col. 141] Answer to urgent question—(Elizabeth Truss)

Rehabilitation of Offenders [Col. 149] Statement—(Chris Grayling)

Finance [Col. 163] Bill presented, and read the First and Second time

Financial Services (Banking Reform) [Col. 163] Bill presented, and read the First and Second time

Marriage (Same Sex Couples) [Col. 164] Bill presented, and read the First and Second time

Energy [Col. 164] Bill presented, and read the First and Second time

Children and Families [Col. 164] Bill presented, and read the First and Second time

Pensions [Col. 165] Bill presented, and read the First time

Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing [Col. 165] Bill presented, and read the First time

Gambling (Licensing and Advertising [Col. 165] Bill presented, and read the First time

Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) [Col. 165] Bill presented, and read the First time

Debate on the Address (Second day) [Col. 166] Debate Adjourned

Hezbollah [Col. 251] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 1WS]

Ministerial Correction [Col. 1MC]